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Are you trying to get the attention of your Twin Flame by looking them up or orchestrating a run-in with them? Or, by contrast, are you actively trying to avoid or ignore them? If you answered yes to either, you are in your “push” energy. And when you “push”, your Twin Flame inevitably “pulls”. This is a mutually manipulative dance in which you both vie for control.    Of course, any sense of control is false and fear-based. The mind, which is only part of your earth-based experience, is never actually in control. Control belongs to your soul, which is eternal through all lifetimes and everything in between.    The goal of the push/pull phenomenon is to learn to let go of this need to control, and to let your soul take over. When you do, miracles tend to happen.   Quotes  • “There's a belief that knowledge is power. You Google things, you have a quest and a search and a curiosity for information about things. You want to know things. That's all fine and perfect–as a human being with a mind, that's what the mind does, but why does the mind do that? Because it feels like the more it knows, the more in control it is.” (5:31 | Elle) • "What the false sense of control gives the fear-based push/pull energy is a false sense of security. Your mind and your fear-based push/pull energy are never in control. Your soul is controlling everything, it's orchestrating everything in your life, in every lifetime, between every lifetime. Your mind isn't even there in between your lifetimes. You only get a mind when you come into physical form.” (6:35 | Elle)  • “The “push” energy feels like it's in control by trying to get reactions and responses from the “pull” energy. The “pull” energy feels like it's in control by focusing anywhere else but on the “push” energy.” (10:57 | Elle)  • “They're both very manipulative. It's a very manipulative game.” (11:23 | Elle) “You can't let go of your Twin Flame. What you want to let go of is, pretty much, the wheel. Sit back and let go of trying to control your journey.” (14:11 | Elle)   Links For information about the Be With Your Twin Flame® Coaching Certification and Business Academy or if you're ready to leverage the pain, confusion and obsession of the journey to have a loving relationship with your twin flame and elevate every aspect of your life, speak with one of our Clarity Coaches here: https://go.oncehub.com/ClarityConsultationCall   To discover all of the other ways we can assist you along your Twin Flame journey, please visit:  https://linktr.ee/ellehari   Shop Elle Hari's latest books here:  https://store.ellehariauthor.com/   Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

On today's episode, I'm going to talk about five things you should look into if you're experiencing fertility challenges. And some of these things may actually provide answers if you have been diagnosed with unexplained infertility. It's important to note that this episode is not meant to give any medical advice and it is not meant to override what your healthcare provider has diagnosed you with or has advised you to do, but it is something that may help uncover a lot of questions that you have. So, staytuned. In this episode I will go over: -Common ways to uncover hidden reasons for unexplained infertility. -Why your gut can be a key factorin your fertility health. -What type of doctor you should choose to get baseline tests Click here to save your spot in the Winter Cohort of The Wholesome Fertility Transformation! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/Fertility-Transformation-Group-Coaching Pick up your free e-book mentioned in the podcast here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/making_the_clean_choice_for_fertility For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus    Before I get to today's podcast episode, I have an exciting announcement to make. Over the past few months, I've been working very hard to create a program that gives you the main things you've been asking for. Hands on support for me, access to my proven foundational framework, and community and accountability. Most importantly, I've created this program to take you off the roller coaster of your fertility struggles and give you the tools to transform your fertility in just eight weeks.  I am honored to introduce you to The Wholesome Fertility Transformation.  A live eight week coaching program  designed to guide you through a proven, evidence based method of my signature program called The Wholesome Fertility Method. And that is the framework, but it will also provide hands on support with me to help you improve your chances of conceiving. So  I'll be running this program only four times a year, and each cohort is aligned with seasons, winter, spring, summer, and fall. Because each season only supports 10 people, it will have limited spots available. I will be putting a link on the episode notes that you can find it, and if you're interested, I would definitely do it as soon as possible because I am limiting the amount of people because I want to make it an intimate experience for all the participants so that I'm really able to help each individual. This program not only includes coaching calls, but it also has an initial onboarding call with me, which is a one on one. So it definitely. is catered to customize your specific needs and your specific questions. And I'm so excited to announce this. It is the first time ever that I'm doing this and it is open for a limited time. So if you are interested and you've been listening to this podcast , and you feel aligned with the things that I've been sharing, this will be that times a thousand so it really is my heart and soul poured into a program. It's also something where I will be there live with you to walk you through and help you to absolutely boost your chances of conceiving. And I work very hard to make sure that everybody I work with gets the most benefits and gets the outcome they signed up for. So I look forward to seeing you there!   [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. On today's episode, I'm going to talk about five things you should look into if you're experiencing fertility challenges. And some of these things may actually provide answers if you have been diagnosed with unexplained infertility. Now, this episode is not meant to give any medical advice and it is not meant to override. What your healthcare provider has diagnosed you with or has advised you to do, but it is something that may help uncover a lot of questions that you have. So, stay tuned. So the following five things I'm going to be talking about are things that I think can help uncover, especially if you have been diagnosed with unexplained infertility. Number one, I'm going to talk about testing. So hopefully you guys have already been tested, but this is something that sometimes I do get patients and they're experiencing fertility challenges and to my surprise, they [00:01:00] haven't gotten baseline tests, which can really help a lot. Especially just to rule out anything major. So number one, I do suggest that everybody get baseline tests with their doctors. And most of the time. Either your OB will cover these tests, and a lot of times they do. A reproductive endocrinologist is a better choice just because they specialize in reproductive medicine. And the OBs usually do understand a little bit, but they're not as well versed as a reproductive endocrinologist. And typically a reproductive endocrinologist will pay a little more attention to things like your thyroid and more anything really that has to do with fertility. So they are types of doctors that I recommend going to if you are experiencing fertility challenges, just because you're going to get a lot more of a [00:02:00] thorough workup. And some of these baseline tests they usually do are day two, three of your period. And typically blood is drawn during that time. And they check for lots of different hormones, but that's where they find out your FSH and how high it is. And if that means that your ovaries aren't responding as well. And then they also check typically a full thyroid panel. So basically it's a bunch of different hormones that give a lot of insight to the doctor to figure out what's going on. And again, this is a baseline and typically this is really where a lot of doctors will start. Another thing that they will recommend, and it is a little bit more of a procedure, but it's not terrible. It's not like they put you under, but an HSG to make sure that your tubes are clear. Again, it's a, bit of a procedure, it's not the most comfortable thing in the [00:03:00] world. But once it's over, typically, you should feel fine. And I do highly recommend doing that because You could look into everything and not figure out why things aren't working But then when you find out if your tubes are partially or fully blocked it's important for so many reasons because you need to know if that's the reason why you're not conceiving and then it can also lead you into Looking into other things like was there pelvic inflammation, or you can also look into possibly endometriosis, like what could it be that's possibly blocking your tubes? And that can kind of lead you into a whole host of other things, but things that are actually really important to look into. And also, if it's partially blocked, it can cause an increased chance of ectopic pregnancy, which is dangerous. And that's something that you really want to look into. So, those [00:04:00] are the reasons why I think it's really important to look into an HSG, because everything that you're doing, taking care of yourself, you can go to acupuncture, you could do lots of different natural ways of trying It's not going to make a difference if your tubes are blocked. So that's something that's really important to look into. Typically they'll also do an ultrasound and that's where they'll look at like your number of follicles and how they're growing. If there are too many, which typically you'll see with PCOS and they call it polycystic ovary. And the cysts are actually lots of follicles that are growing, but they're not fully maturing and not fully ovulating. So, that will also give you insight on which direction you should go into. And then also, let's not forget about the men, a semen analysis, and they also do ultrasounds, and they look into the sperm and how they're operating, if they're Shape is optimal, and that typically will be the morphology, the look at the number, [00:05:00] is it high enough to make a difference, and also the motility, how they move, and how much semen there is. Sometimes they can be dehydrated and not have enough seminal fluid. So all those things are definitely important to look at and then with an ultrasound They'll look to make sure that all the parts are okay and like with women they'll look at like the tubes and men Sometimes they'll see that there's a varicose cell, which is basically An enlarged vein that can cause issues with the sperm as well so it's important to really just get baselines for everybody and typically that will be covered with insurance and But that really, it depends on the office, it depends on the state, I don't know, like, or it depends on the type of insurance you have, but typically labs. Are covered by insurance and so that's number one. You really want to rule out like the big stuff and that is with mainstream medicine [00:06:00] conventional medicine baseline testing you want to make sure that You just rule out like all the big things. So that's number one I think everybody should be doing this regardless if you end up wanting to get IVF or not I think a lot of people get hesitant about going to a fertility clinic because they think That that means they're going to do IVF. They may suggest IVF. You don't have to say yes or no you could just go and get the tests One thing that I can say is they will know what they're doing as far as the testing goes So it is important to at least just gather information and they will be better to go to them for information when it comes to fertility Then your OB because your OB does a bunch of other things, but they're not specifically specialized in fertility You want somebody who's specialized and really understands what it means and what the body's supposed to do And what is out of whack and what are things that are like red flags to pay attention to? So that's something that I definitely [00:07:00] suggest Number two, connected to testing, but functional testing, so that's a little bit different. It's a little bit more detailed, so for example, the Dutch test, that's something that I run. It stands for Dried Urine Test for Comprehensive Hormones, and it really is an amazing test. I love it. And all you have to do is really urinate at a certain time of the month, and that basically, they'll have you urinate at different times of the day so that they can see how your hormones fluctuate. That's really why this test is so superior is because Usually when you go and get tests, it's one snapshot at one time of the day and this test will take those snapshots throughout the day throughout to see like what is your waking cortisol and are you waking up enough? Do you possibly have signs of adrenal fatigue and sometimes [00:08:00] even though we're not diagnosing, sometimes you will see patterns that typically happen with low thyroid, but what that could do is it can alert. The person that you're working with or, you know, as a practitioner to go and get further tests done with your doctor. And also we can look into progesterone. So perhaps you might need progesterone. It also looks into how your estrogen is metabolizing in your body. And if you're estrogen dominant, if you have the right type of estrogen, your, your body's really processing it correctly. It also looks at your melatonin at night, which is really important. It's important for many different reasons, and it also looks into your DHEA and confirms if you're ovulating. So there's so many things that it does, and it even looks into certain nutrients that you have in your body. Like glutathione or B12. So, do you need to supplement with [00:09:00] more glutathione? It gives the practitioner a little more detail and a little bit more guidance on how to treat you more specifically. So, I highly recommend the Dutch test at least once. to really get a clear picture of what's happening in your system. And then if it is imbalanced, I would definitely suggest doing it again after a couple of months of implementing certain diet and supplement regimens and lifestyle suggestions that your practitioner gives you. So that's definitely something that I would look into. So another thing that I highly suggest from functional testing is food sensitivity tests. Because that's going to help you understand if there are certain foods that are irritating your system. If you are sensitive to foods that can cause inflammation, it basically is going to drain your body because when your body is resistant to something and it's causing kind of like a hyper immunity, then it's going to drain the energy of your body. And we don't [00:10:00] want that. That's number one. Number two, if you do end up getting more inflamed, then you're not going to be able to absorb nutrients correctly. You want your nutrient absorption. to be as efficient as possible because you want your energy, which happens from nutrient absorption. You want your energy to be as efficient as possible because conception takes a lot of energy. High energy is required for reproduction to occur. So that is definitely something that I would highly recommend and I think is very important. So related to that, I would definitely recommend, if you can, gut testing as well. And that you could do at home from a functional test for gut. And typically, you'll get a small sample of the stool. It's not as bad as it seems. You just take a little like sample of your poop. While you're wiping and then you send it you put it in a little vial and you [00:11:00] send it in and what that does is they check your microbiome, and they can also look at factors that contribute to inflammation in the body and I've worked with people for months and then once we started to do, we've done a gut test. like months later, my patient decided she wanted to do it. Not everybody wants to do it because it is costly, but her choice to do it actually helped me as the practitioner to see, to get more insight on shifting our supplements. And I'll be honest, that was huge. It was a key factor and it really did change a lot because she ended up getting pregnant. Like shortly after so it definitely helped lower the inflammation. We got a little bit of a better Insight on what was going on in her gut and the guts really important when it comes to fertility health Something else I recommend. This is another test which is often [00:12:00] ignored or Maybe not even ignored people don't even know about it And that is vaginal microbiome testing. So, basically, it's a swab in the vagina and you basically send it in and it tests for the microbiome of the vagina. Like, basically, if also not just the microbiome but also the acidity. And what they found is that there is a correlation, which is fascinating, with inflammation in the uterus. and an imbalanced vaginal microbiome. And there's also a correlation between unexplained infertility and an imbalance of vaginal microbiome. And it's also linked with frequent miscarriages, and it's also linked with failed IVF transfers. So that is really, that was blew me away when I saw it. I remember going to Megasporobiotic, the company that makes it, it's [00:13:00] a probiotic that I highly recommend and the company that makes it, they're called Microbiome Labs, and I went one weekend and saw a bunch of speakers, one of which was Dr. Jolene Brighton, and she talked about this. She talked about the importance of vaginal microbiome, and I was floored because I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe What it was connected to and all of the things, I mean, just to think that women are going through months and months and months and months and not even realizing that this is the case or if they're trying to prepare their body for a transfer and not realizing that they need to protect themselves and, and make sure that this is not an issue because they're spending so much money. So that was fascinating. And another thing that I found fascinating was once I started learning more about this and implementing it. I had one patient who was doing her retrieval and transfer in Spain, and so she already did the [00:14:00] retrieval. She had eggs, and she was going to go for her transfer in Spain. In Spain, it is commonplace to check the vaginal microbiome, and they actually always give vaginal suppositories, so that would be the solution if there is an issue, is vaginal suppositories that are probiotics. And that should start to regulate it. So she was getting ones from Spain. I was really fascinated. And interestingly enough, she ended up getting pregnant. So it was a successful transfer, but I thought it was so fascinating that that is something that is so ignored really in the US. So that's something that I started. to a lot of my patients who are having unexplained infertility, frequent miscarriages or any kind of imbalance that seems to point in that direction. So that's something that I definitely suggest looking into. And what these tests can do is provide more insight on what's going on, more clarity, [00:15:00] really, to understand. So you're not guessing, and you're not trying so many different things for so long, almost like a shot in the dark, without realizing, like, really what's going on. And the difference with functional testing, I mean, the, I guess the con is that they're out of pocket. They're not really covered by insurance, but they're a lot more sensitive to things that are often missed in conventional testing. So that I definitely recommend doing if you can. And then number three. Look into your energy. So I touched on this a little bit on the functional testing about energy and how important it is to have energy when it comes to conception. Conception is a very energy dependent process on your body and it needs a lot of fuel. A lot of fuel. And often times, We are having energy leaks that we [00:16:00] don't even realize are going on. And ask yourself, are you energy deficient? So, typically, if you feel especially after eating, you feel really drained, there might be something that you need to look into with your digestion. Or are you feeling drained at the end of the day? Are you getting enough sleep? Are you sleeping solid throughout the night? Or is it disrupted? It's not even about quantity, it's more about quality when it comes to sleep. Are there things or relationships that are draining you emotionally? I'll be honest, emotions are incredibly taxing if there are like certain negative emotions that you're feeling or sadness or frustration with certain relationships and sometimes you might need to really Make those boundaries firm so that you are not exposing yourself to things that are very energy draining Especially when you're going through this journey. So in this [00:17:00] journey, I always tell my patients my clients It's important to protect yourself. It's important to protect your personal energy and You shouldn't have to feel bad about it. So like if it means learning to say no, then that's what it means you have to learn to say no because ultimately, this is more important and it takes priority over everything and sometimes that means you have to draw firm boundaries around yourself and you're around your spouse and just really protect your own energy and not be around certain relationships or certain people or certain things that can drain that energy. So, it's really important to look into your energy and I highly suggest Even starting to journal could be like a little energy journal prompt looking into what is draining you Are there certain things that you feel like you're putting up with and just writing a [00:18:00] list and I remember doing that one time Because I had a coach that was telling me to do that Like what are the things that you are putting up with? I think that is such a great question What are things that you're putting up with because we all have things that we put up with and then just writing a list and then you can obviously Take out the ones that you can't not put up with. I mean, there's certain things that you just can't avoid. Okay. So that those are important things that you really can't escape, but then ask yourself, what are the things that you really don't need to be putting up with and how are ways that you can shut that down or close it off so that you won't have to put up with it? Because little by little, all that does is it really sheds light. on what it is in your life that's like sucking little bits of energy. So it could be little leaks. It doesn't have to be big. And I'll be honest, I'll give you one example, having a pile of clutter in the corner of your [00:19:00] room that you're like, you know, I'll get to this one day. living with that, every single time you see that clutter, it's going to leak a little bit of energy. So sometimes just taking that day out of your weekend and just saying, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to actually take care of this list. I'm going to get rid of these things that have been hanging over my head. And that is a way to close an energy leak. Creating boundaries with people that drain you. That is another way. Setting boundaries at work, that's another way. I mean, there's little things. Expressing yourself for something that has not been expressed or you've been afraid to express. It might be uncomfortable, but that's another way that you can protect your energy. Because when you are holding onto something that you're not expressing and that needs to be said, That could be draining your energy. That's just like holding on to something that's like slowly brewing and sucking your energy. So forgiveness, that's another way of protecting your energy. Letting go of something, letting go of [00:20:00] certain resentments. I know it's very simplistic and it's not something that's going to happen overnight in certain cases, but these are things to just keep in mind because it's almost like a great example is like iPhone. All the things that are running in the background. Make it less energy efficient. It's not going to function as well So what are the things that are lying in the background of your life and they could be on all levels that are making you? Drained so those are things to keep in mind. Are you also over exercising and then I'm going to actually go into eating because that Definitely can impact if you're overeating that is not energy efficient if you're under eating that is not Energy efficient. So that takes us into number four, which is, are you eating enough or are you overeating? Are you eating what is good for your body? Are you eating energy rich foods? Are you eating processed foods, which are pretty much dead food in a package? [00:21:00] And yes, there are some freeze dried foods that are not so bad and they are made from whole foods. from real grown foods and they don't have tons of ingredients that you can't pronounce. So those are not so bad. They're kind of like in the middle, but are you eating things with lots of processing? Basically food that has no life or are you eating whole foods things that are nourishing your body? Things that your body's compatible with because it could be something that's grown that your body just doesn't respond well to. And that kind of takes us back. See, this is kind of everything's connected. It takes us back to the functional testing, the food sensitivities. Are you eating things that are right with your body? And truthfully, you can figure that out without necessarily having to do a test. Sometimes just writing a journal of how you feel when you eat certain foods, or even just paying attention. Like, you know what, whenever I eat dairy, I have diarrhea. Well, that can't be [00:22:00] good. So like things like that, like how does my body Feel. Do I get really bloated after I eat bread? I was bloated for years and years and years and I ignored that. And eventually I quit gluten and my energy shot up. So that's another thing. So like, are you eating the right foods? Are you eating a variety of foods? So the gut microbiome loves, again, we're making another connection. The gut microbiome loves variety. Trying to, you know, eating different things, eating different fibers, different like really the rainbow when it comes to your vegetables and your fruits and having healthy fats, having seeds, nuts, you know, things that feel good to your body and give you energy and also not overstuffing yourself because then your body can't absorb correctly your food. Are you taking time to chew when you are eating? When you're taking time to chew, you're helping your digestive system. You're pretty [00:23:00] much preparing it so that it's almost like that sous chef. You're the sous chef for your body's kitchen. And when you're chewing it, and properly chewing it, you're preparing it so that it's able to cook well and transform into nutrients that your body can use. So doing that plus obviously the chewing, but as you're chewing longer, you're also mixing in that amazing enzyme rich saliva. which is also helping your digestion. So those are things that are really important to do. Making sure that you have a really good proper diet that is nourishing for your body. And I'll be honest, the diet alone can make such a difference for fertility health. Just the diet alone. So, on to number five, and this is The last one, and it's a very important one, is your home clean of toxic ingredients? [00:24:00] And I'm going to mention something before I even go into this. Nobody's going to get it 100%. So don't try, because that can cause a whole other level of OCD that I've seen. However, it is important enough, and it really does make a difference, that It is important enough to bring up. There are many ways that Endocrine disruptors can come into our life and one of them which I see a lot is plastics If you can avoid all plastics and not just the ones that say BPA free Really try to avoid all plastics that being said if I'm away And I'm pretty because I know all of this stuff. It does make me a little OCD, I guess, but if I'm away and all I can have is a plastic bottle of water, I have a plastic bottle of water. It's not like you have to do things 100 percent all the time because you don't want to stress yourself out. It can be. too overwhelming. [00:25:00] But if you can, instead, at home at least, you can get yourself a container, a bottle that is glass or stainless steel, and then you can look into like green pan or like more non toxic I honestly, sometimes I'll just, green pan I'll have if I want to do something that's nonstick for certain foods, but for the most part, I will have stainless steel. I just cook with stainless steel. Those are great. There's a little trick to not making it stick. You can actually put the stainless steel. Pan on the fire or like the stovetop for a little while. You let it get to a certain level. One of the ways you can test is you could take a drop of water and put it in. If the drop of water creates a bead. You can wipe it off really quick, and then that is a perfect temperature. Then you can put the oil, and you can put even a chicken, and it will not stick. So the trick with that, with making it non stick, is to [00:26:00] let it heat, kind of like a fun fact, let it heat to a certain point. I actually remember seeing that online. You could find information, you can even Google on YouTube if you really want to see exactly how to do it. You Google or you search on YouTube how to make a stainless steel pan non stick. And so that is the simplest way to have clean products. Ceramics are good too, so you have to just be aware of that and then there are certain ones that have been tested with less, the ceramics as far as plates, not having lead because there have been tested products that have shown that they do. So those are things that you can look into. And then, ingredients for products. There's many ways. There's ewg. org. You know, there's certain ways that you can look it up so that it's not as overwhelming. There are definitely ingredients that can be endocrine disruptors [00:27:00] to make it simple so that it's not as overwhelming I actually created an e book so you could check that out I'm going to put it in the episode notes and it's called making the clean choice for fertility where I really outline Everything there. It'll also direct you to websites and resources where you can look up certain ingredients to see or products themselves to see what their rating is. So that's going to help a lot as well. So just to simplify it without getting into the details of unpronounceable words. That could be really overwhelming. Just check out my ebook cause it's free. It's got all the information and I will cover pretty much like the big ingredients to avoid and what to look for and how to make it really simple and easy. And the truth is once you do that, once you start to just. Change the ingredients of your products, then it's just going to get easier because you're just [00:28:00]reordering and then you just stay on one specific pattern. So it's not as hard as it seems. It becomes second nature, I promise. So those are the five things that I highly recommend looking into if you're trying to conceive. I think everybody should look into it and that is why I created this episode. I do hope you enjoy this episode and if you have any questions for me, you can always feel free to find me on Instagram. I'm there every day. You can DM me and my Instagram handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility. So thank you so much for tuning in today. Have a beautiful day.  

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.   DESCRIPTION: Sheenaz and Saba of Queer Crescent and Cynthia, Kaiyah, and A of Lavender Phoenix join Cheryl for this week's episode of APEX Express! This first half of the episode dives into the insincerity of pinkwashing and the ways it has been utilized by the Israeli government to exploit LGBTQIA+ rights to distract from their oppressive policies towards Palestinians, both queer and non-queer. Sheenaz and Saba brilliantly expose the ways pinkwashing perpetuates Islamophobia and racist tropes about Palestinians, along with Arab, Muslim, and SWANA communities and shed light on the long history of trans and queer organizing within Palestine, uplifting work of Al Qaws, an organization at the forefront of Palestinian cultural and social change that builds LGBTQ communities and promotes new ideas about the role of gender and sexual diversity in political activism, civil society institutions, media, and everyday life. Queer Crescent urges queer organizations and leaders to speak up, take action, and demand a ceasefire, writing that “As trans, queer and non-binary people we understand too well what is at stake when our self-determination and sovereignty are removed. Palestine is a queer issue, and it is our duty to listen and learn from queer Palestinians who are living under Israeli occupation, and in the imposed Diaspora”. You can sign on to Queer Crescent's ceasefire campaign at bit.ly/PalestineisaQueerIssue. In the second half of the show we are joined by Cynthia, Kaiyah, and A of Lavender Phoenix who emphasize the importance of care within the Palestine Liberation movement, urging our listeners to not fall into feelings of inaction. They highlight the importance of grief routines and using grief and rage as tools for momentum, and ask the provoking difficult question: What could it look like for people to feel as safe at a protest as they feel at home? We also gain intimate insight into the ways Lavender Phoenix has been organizing, as Cynthia, Kaiyah, and A emphasize the interconnectedness of all of our struggles and the interconnectedness of all of our freedoms. IMPORTANT LINKS + RESOURCES: Queer Crescent's website Queer Crescent's Call for Ceasefire Sign-On Queer Crescent's Pinkwashing Resources Al Qaws's website Lavender Phoenix's website SHOW TRANSCRIPT: Cheryl: Good evening. You are tuned into apex express. We are bringing you an Asian American and Pacific Islander point of view from the bay and around the world. I'm your host, Cheryl and tonight is an acre night, which is short for Asian Americans for civil rights and equality. Apex express is proud to be one of the 11 API social justice groups within the acre network, working to advance positive social change. Tonight, we have two very spectacular guests here with us, Shenaaz and Saba from Queer Crescent. It is such an honor to have you both here with us today. Do you mind introducing yourselves? Who are you and who are your people? Saba: Hi, I'm Saba Taj. I am the communications coordinator for Queer Crescent. And, who are my people? Oh gosh, this is a beautiful question, and I think one that, changes at different moments. In large part, I really feel like I am on the side of humanity and Global dignity. As a queer Muslim from the South that struggle for our collective dignity often centers folks whom I share identities with and just more broadly, really thinking about individuals who are marginalized on multiple fronts. And so, yeah, that's a really kind of vague answer. There's a lot of different folks that are included, but, I hope that answers it for you. Shenaaz: Yeah, thanks Cheryl for inviting Saba and I on the show. Hi folks, I'm Shenaaz Janmohamed. I'm the founder and executive director of Queer Crescent. I've been asked this question ” who are my people” at different times and in the past would have this litany of folks that come to mind: parents, queers, misfits, etc. And I think what I'm feeling now and what I've noticed is that litany of folks can sometimes make the world feel smaller. What I'm pushing and striving towards is feeling a sense of home with more and more folks where there's political alignment. There's values alignment. We're struggling together. So this notion of who are my people feels like it's more of a question than it's an answer. And it keeps me hungry for finding more and more. Cheryl: Wow. Thank you both so much for your thoughtful answers and for setting the tone of our conversation in such a provocative and intentional way.. Do you mind telling us about Queer Crescent, the work that you do, and also about your current cease fire campaign? Shenaaz: Sure, yeah, I can kick us off and then Saba feel free to weigh in. So Queer Crescent, started really as a response to the ways in which many of us, I say queer Muslim and I really mean the range of LGBTQIA plus experiences, trans folks, non binary folks, intersex folks, et cetera. So Queer Crescent really started as a drop-in support group when the Muslim and African travel ban was imposed in 2017. At the time I was working as a mental health worker largely with high schoolers and I also had a private practice. As a queer Muslim recent parent at the time was really feeling like a sense of placelessness and lack of political home where all parts of me would be held whole. And so I put together a support group and it was an overwhelming response in the community. Over 30 people would show up every two weeks. I've lived in the bay for about eight nine years at the time and I was meeting so many different people. Really the seedling of that support group led to this more national organization stretching towards base building and power building with marginal Muslims, queer Muslims. It really was like trying to create a space where we could be held and seen and move from that place of the complexity and the entireties of our identities. In terms of the ceasefire campaign, I'll kind of foreground it and then kick it to Saba, over the last several years that Queer Crescent has grown we've been able to build really solid relationships with other movement partners and other queer organizations. And linking to Palestine solidarity around bodily autonomy has always been something that has been top of mind. The assaults on Gaza are consistent and they have been for many years so when October 7th happened and the assault on Gaza and this genocide has been so intense, it required all hands on deck. Many folks who are committed to the liberation of Palestine have been calling for ceasefire. And so I asked myself, what can Queer Crescent do to play a role in calling for ceasefire and what are the links that are possible to make. Pinkwashing was a natural connect because it is very much a queer issue. Queer organizations like Al Qaws in Palestine and so many others have been talking to us about pinkwashing and making those links. It felt like a good opportunity to call for ceasefire while also doing some political education around the importance of queer people understanding and interrupting and taking on pinkwashing as part of queer liberation. Saba: Shenaaz, I feel like you covered the grounding. That was, I think, perfect. But Cheryl, there's additional questions about the campaign. Cheryl: Yes! I have many questions. For starters, what is pink washing and Saba I'm taking this line directly from Queer Crescent's ceasefire campaign description, which you wrote. How is pinkwashing used as a strategy to advance Zionist colonial violence? Saba: Yeah. So pinkwashing is a form of propaganda that's used by Israel. The aim of it is ultimately to dehumanize the Palestinian people and use this racist trope that Arabs and Muslims and Middle Eastern SWANA people are anti queer and trans and are ultimately homophobic and backwards. It's part of a larger narrative of these groups of people not being with the times and trying to create some sort of image. Not trying to, but very actively pushing a story that Israel is the place of progress, of freedom, when in fact they are using these stories of Palestinians, Muslims, et cetera, being homophobic as an excuse to dehumanize them as cover for their own violent actions. So it's a distraction from their racist and violent policies, projecting an image of freedom and safety for queer people in Israel that is not in fact true. You can't be for queer liberation while also bombing these people and oppressing this entire group. There's no way for those things to happen at the same time, and I think it's part of a larger strategy that we see also play out in terms of feminism. That story is very familiar, where after 9 11, we have to go save Muslim women from these evil, savage Muslim men, and to do so, we're going to bomb all of these communities. It's a strategy you utilize to justify violence. It splits our communities in ways like a divide and conquer sort of tactic; this larger story of you can't be queer and Muslim at the same time, or you can't be a feminist and be Muslim at the same time. And that ultimately serves to split our movements and reinforce a racist stereotype that makes the larger public feel that it is justified to behave in violent and oppressive ways towards an entire people through some excuse that they actually don't care about one another. Shenaaz, if you want to jump in. Shenaaz: I appreciate the links you're making and ultimately I think pinkwashing strategies or the splitting that you're talking about requires a betrayal of the self. Only if you betray some part of yourself can you feel a sense of belonging. And as queer people in our queer bodies, we know that is just not the case. When your experience is being exploited, it's very evident. The work ahead is both combating the colonial violence, making the violence stop, demanding ceasefire now, and the continuous work of continuing to show up in our full selves as queer people, and affirm our sense of belonging within our communities despite both the state violence and the ways in which our belonging is interrupted, both from external forces and internal. Cheryl: Thank you both so much. I think that imagery of splitting. And the ways pink washing shows up, especially for queer Muslim people is really powerful, especially that line Shenaaz, pink washing requires a betrayal of the self. Could either of you talk a little bit more on the impact of this splitting internally within SWANA communities. Shenaaz: Well, I don't think that Saba and I could speak to experiences of SWANA folk because neither Saba and I are SWANA, we're both South Asian. I think the ways in which we come into this conversation, as folks who are Muslim who grew up in Muslim community and that adjacent experience, where Queer Crescent's central project is to blow breath into what it means to be a Muslim. And so Muslim multiplicity, nuance, contradictions, self determination around what your relationship to Muslim is, and a self determined Muslim identity. One of the many functions of Islamophobia and anti Muslim racism as an outgrowth of white supremacy is to dehumanize people. In the case of what Saba was saying earlier, it limits what can be possible of a people. There's this assertion that Muslim communities are inherently homophobic, inherently patriarchal. There were queer Muslim folks prior to colonization. It was the advent of colonization with it's imposed Christian, dogmatic, very strict notions of gender that actually interrupted what was otherwise a much more fluid sense of gender. So part of it is understanding those lineages and that history. And then it's also confronting the realities that are present today. Saba: Yeah. I think it also really obscures a lot of reality as well. One that there are queer Palestinians who are organizing and doing this work within their own communities, Al Qaws being folks that we really look to and want to amplify and follow their leadership. But even in the U. S., you can really see clearly this story of we are in the United States, the harbingers of progress, and yet anti trans laws and the oppression, the silencing of queer people and trans people in this country– we haven't solved these things. . It's a story that is used for a particular purpose and that purpose is just to justify war. That is the actual priority. It's not about queer liberation. It feels incredibly obvious that is not actually the priority of the United States or of Israel, especially when if they were actually to be for progress, for queer and trans liberation, by design, that means you would not be moving in these ways. Cheryl: That was perfectly said. There is the strange dissonance going on with pink washing that, just as you said Saba, has nothing to do with trans and queer liberation at all. I know queer Crescent has compiled a thorough pink washing resource list. How can our listeners access that? Saba: We put out a call to queer orgs to sign on to a letter that outlines that Palestine is a queer issue and is naming pinkwashing in particular as a framework that we need to be very familiar with because it's a copy paste situation. This pinkwashing strategy is used really clearly and blatantly by Israel but also more broadly applied in other circumstances as well. So really calling on queer folks to understand that we have stakes in this and as Organizations as individuals who are committed to that liberation. We must recognize and move in a way that centers Palestine also as a queer issue, connect to it in that way. It is our responsibility. So the letter is online. It's bit.ly/PalestineisaQueerIssue. It can also be found via our Instagram. It's one of the links in our bio as well as the pinkwashing resources, which can be further accessed via that letter. That's a great way to get connected with us. We are also planning some pinkwashing teach ins, so that we can help further this political education and make those connections so folks feel empowered to speak on this issue and bring more folks into calling for a ceasefire, understanding that this is in our broad interest as a community of LGBTQI plus organizations and individuals. Shenaaz: Yeah. The only piece that I would add is this is a really horrific. moment of witnessing genocide and the fight for a free Palestine is a long fight. And so this is also a moment to shore up deeper solidarity. And part of solidarity is supporting people with learning the ways in which they, our struggles are connected. And again really helping queer people understand pink washing, both as such a well oiled used tool of Israel and its settler colonial project and occupation of Palestine, but also the ways in which Israel is this. Model for other colonial powers to learn from through military, through cops and also pinkwashing. We see, for example, India adopting pinkwashing strategies as well to again blur its power and its own project of ethnic cleansing of Muslims, Dalits, Christians, and anyone who doesn't subscribe to the Hindu fascist notion Modi and his government is trying to push. And so it's also really important for queer people to understand this strategy of pinkwashing, to interrupt the Israeli propaganda, but also to notice and be on alert for other colonial and state forces that also use pinkwashing to further other political gains that are in direct opposition to us having safety and bodily autonomy and freedoms. Cheryl: All of these amazing resources will also be linked within our show notes. For maybe one of the final questions do you mind expanding more about this interconnectedness between all of our movements, how to quote from the ceasefire campaign “as a queer Muslim org we recognize that there is no queer trans non binary and femme Muslim liberation without Palestine. Could you expand on this a little bit more? Saba: Yeah. the interconnectedness of our struggles is just such a critical piece, that shows up in this moment and so many others. And I can track that and name as a queer Muslim person, the Black Lives Matter movement was also integral. When we think about our freedom, we must always be looking towards how we can disrupt, dismantle systems of oppression, of policing, of dehumanization that are perpetuated across so many different lines. And that connection I think is really critical because it becomes so easy to think about safety on an individual level. How can I personally be comfortable? How can I personally be safe? But oftentimes what that requires within a capitalist framework is somebody else not being safe. As long as our systems of safety are contingent on the oppression of one or many groups, none of us are actually safe. If you look deep into policy, just to further articulate this, the Patriot Act not only impacted Muslims in the U. S. and more broadly, but immigrants. We're not only Muslim, you see that police violence in the U. S. is not disconnected. Anti blackness that is so obvious and rife in our policing in the United States is also in relationship with Israel. Much of the police across the nation is trained by Israeli IDF. And if we're not actually seeing those connections, then ultimately we are not dismantling those larger systems that serve to direct their violence, their silencing towards different groups at different times, but ultimately all serve to uphold white supremacy. I think it can be very tempting when it feels like the target is not specifically on our own back to feel like maybe we can find some safety by being close have some proximity to whiteness in different moments. And we really need to resist that urge. Even when they're not looking directly at us, if there is a group of people who are being named as enemy, who are being actively dehumanized whether that is subtle or blatant, that is all of our business, and those are strategies that will be certainly used against us at a different time when it's in the interest of consolidating white supremacy. These strategies can be used to target so many of us. Also this notion that we are separate groups is also often not the case. There is overlap so we must, at all turns, be on the side of liberation, on the side of pushing for community care, as opposed to our money going towards violence, which is the root of so much of this. The interests of the S. and Israel is power at the expense of people, not actually about how to care for their own people. Shenaaz: Yeah, if I could just build on that as well. I think that's such an important point that you're making when there is one community that is facing assault in this case, Palestine and Palestinian liberation movement organizers. It also becomes a moment where harmful policies and decisions are made in rapid fire to your point around the Patriot Act. For example, right now there is the potential of a reauthorization of section 702, which is a section of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and Queer Crescent is a part of many other Muslim progressive organizations that are trying to resist this. But this moment of increased violence against Palestinians that is being met by mass mobilization in the form of protest, of shutting things down, deep solidarity is being met from the elected official side and the state side with more more strategies for repression. We're seeing much more police force at protest. And then we're seeing things like the reauthorization and the expansion of the surveillance apparatus and the surveillance state. And so while that is Popping up in response to the swell of solidarity with Palestine, everyone will suffer under more expansion of surveillance, not just Palestinians, not just Muslims, right. So it is then both our responsibility to be in solidarity as people who are committed to liberation for a free Palestine, but is also tactically and strategic for us to be stronger together. And those that are the most vulnerable under increased suppression and surveillance are those that the most on the margins, be it poor working class, disabled, queer, trans, sex workers, incarcerated, et cetera. There's always so many things happening simultaneously and we need each other, you know, in short. Cheryl: We do need each other. Well, Shenaaz, Saba, thank you both so, so much for being on tonight's show. For all of our listeners out there, to stay in contact and to keep up with Queer Crescent's work, Shenaaz, do you mind reminding us one last time how our listeners can keep up with Queer Crescent? Shenaaz: Yeah you can follow us, our website is queercrescent.org. Thanks to Saba, we have a pretty active social media presence through Instagram, so it's @queercrescent. And then the amazing, resources and call for ceasefire, is at bit.ly/PalestineisaQueerIssue Thank you so much for having us on, Cheryl, and I think it's really important before we end to give a strong solidarity and love to Al Qaws, the Palestinian queer organization in Palestine, who have been talking to many of us about pinkwashing, about resisting colonialism, and about really centering liberation and queerness as two things that are not mutually exclusive, but part of the same liberation project. They've got great resources, really encourage folks to support them, learn from them and follow their lead in the ways that we are trying to do with this campaign. Cheryl: Thank you so much Shenaaz for ending us on such a great note, the link to Al Qaws' website and socials will be also linked in our show notes. Now before I introduced our next guests, we're going to do a quick music break. This song is “Anger (DPT)” by the Khamsa Music Project. Hope you enjoy. PT2: LAVENDER PHOENIX Welcome back to the show, everyone. You are tuned in to APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley and online at kpfa.org.. You were just listening to “Anger (H.T.P.)” by the Khamsa Music Project. We've reached the final half of our show where we're joined by Cynthia, Kaiyah, and A– three incredible organizers and members of Lavender Phoenix. Lavender Phoenix along with APEX Express are two of the eleven AAPI social justice groups within the AACRE network working to advance social change. It is such a great pleasure and honor to have the three of you here with us on the show. Do you mind introducing yourself for our listeners here tonight? Who are you and who are your people? Cynthia: Of course, thanks Cheryl for having us. I'll get us started. My name is Cynthia. I use they/them pronouns. I am the lead organizer at Lavender Phoenix. I'll pass it to Kaiyah. Kaiyah: Hello. Hello. I'm Kaiyah. I use they and he pronouns. I've been a Community Safety Committee member for a couple years and a volunteer for much longer. I'll pass it to A. A: Hi hi, my name is A. I use she/her pronouns, and I've been a Community Safety Committee member since 2021 and also a volunteer slash person who hung around before then. Cheryl: Thanks for indulging me in that quick Round Robin. Can you tell our listeners who is Lavender Phoenix, and what is the role that LavNix plays within the movement for Palestinian liberation? Cynthia: Yeah, of course. Here at Lavender Phoenix, we organize with trans and queer Asians and Pacific Islanders here in the Bay Area. We build power through our organizing, inspire and train grassroots leaders, transform our values from scarcity to abundance, and we also build vibrant intersectional movements. We work with our youth, but we also have a community of elders and our history has been a lot of intergenerational work and oral histories. And as trans and queer Asians and Pacific Islanders, I think it's important for us to know how deep in our legacy our relationship with state violence is. We have lessons from the AIDS epidemic, and we also need to stand on the lessons that we experience from our homelands. From all of this, we know that organizing in solidarity right now with Palestinians is actually the best way to make that argument for true healing and safety. All the money that's going into this war, violence, and the prison industrial complex, those are resources that could actually go towards healing our earth, feeding our people, housing people. They actually call Palestine an open air prison, and we know that we have better ways to spend our money, better things to do with our time, than to incarcerate and murder people. We want to mourn for our dead, and we fight like hell for the living. And we know that right now, it is not just an actual war, but there's a war in ideology. Are we going to go for weapons and corporate greed, or are we going to fight for a new world? Kaiyah: Yeah, I was gonna kind of go off what Cynthia said about how our struggles are connected. The money that is going to weapons, going to fuel the military, to take people's lives in Palestine. That money could be used instead to uplift life all around the world and also here in the US where people are houseless. People don't have enough food. People don't have their basic needs met. Safety could be realized in a very practical way instead of using it to take people's lives. And for me, I was thinking about how to become more human is to be aware that we're all connected. And this isn't just like a pretty thing to say, cause literally we're seeing money being sent over there could be used differently. A lot of different cultures and different organizations I've been a part of really hold this value that we're all connected. You hear people say things about Ubuntu and Kapwa– that I am because of who we are and I guess I've developed this sense of connectedness to other people across the world and people in Palestine– many of whom I've never met. I was thinking about why I felt so connected to it. I definitely had this sense that like. I'm seeing my siblings across the world suffering and in pain. What else can I do but try to stop that pain? I see my siblings across the world in Israel are harming others and causing pain. What can I do except to ask them and demand of them to do differently to stop hurting others. We wrote in our organization's plan that to support Palestine is to support our own liberation as well. Palestinian struggle is our struggle and Palestinian futures are our futures. So that's kind of how I've been thinking about it. I don't know if you want to add anything, A? A: That's so beautiful Kaiyah. Yeah, and absolutely resonate with all of that. I guess the last thing I'll add is that I think we also have a really unique opportunity as Asian Americans, as people living in the heart of empire. This is happening overseas, but it's very much a result of our government. The United States is ultimately the most culpable here. So I think as people living here, as people who are voting our representatives into office, who give that legitimacy to our government, I think we both have a responsibility, but also a unique power that most people in the world don't have. That is such a unique opportunity that we have as Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders in the United States. Yeah, we're a marginalized group here, but we're still, relatively speaking, have so much strength in both our position and privilege and also in the ways that we connect to each other. Cheryl: Thank you all so much for speaking to that. From Cynthia and Kaiyah, we're hearing the interconnectedness of all of our struggles to Palestine, and also from A, the positionality and as a result responsibility we have as people within the global north who are complicit within this genocide. Before we continue this incredible conversation. We're going to take a short music break. Go ahead, grab some water and maybe a snack. And we'll be right back after we listened to “Power Struggle” by Kultural Worker And we're back. You were tuned into apex express on 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley and online at kpfa.org.. I'm here in conversation with Cynthia, Kaiyah, and A from Lavender Phoenix, a grassroots organization, building trans and queer API power in the bay area. You were just listening to “Power Struggle” by Kultural Worker. Now let's get back to the show. The next question I have for you all revolves around how a lot of Asian Americans, by way of class privilege or otherwise, are decidedly apolitical even though our existences themselves, as you all have been saying, are extremely political and are extremely interconnected within the Palestinian struggle for liberation. How do we get our communities thinking and taking action on this? A: I can take a first pass, because this is something I truly think about all the time, you know, how do we collect our people? I feel like it really goes back to what Kaiyah was just saying about our humanity is all connected, and to care about other people is to also care about ourselves. It's really hard to do, but this key piece of how do you get people to see that systems of oppression, even if they ostensibly benefit you and guarantee you real material privilege, they also detract from your humanity, and they also make your lives actively materially worse in a lot of ways, or spiritually worse in a lot of ways. I really struggle with how to implement that. It's a hard thing to convey. In movement spaces, over time I, finally, like, you know, got it. But I think that is really what the work is, right? Even if you are not at the bottom of a hierarchy, even if you're at the top of a hierarchy, a system of oppression dehumanizes the oppressor too. Kaiyah: I really feel that. I, I really feel like in this time, there's been a lot of spiritual growth as people are seeing just what is truly important in life. I've been hearing so many people talk about how what's important has become crystal clear as they see people across the world having their lives taken and being like, wow, we really have to do something about this. I'm going to kind of take it a different direction. In general, I think something I often see is that people who care about what's happening to other people who are being oppressed become really overwhelmed with grief and the feelings that come with witnessing something terrible and either become stuck in that and become stuck in inaction because they're overwhelmed, or detach from it because they're not sure what else they can do. Maybe they attempt to take some action, but then it feels futile. Is this actually making an impact? I guess what I'm trying to talk about right now is what can give people hope so that they feel like mobilizing is worth it and mobilizing can be effective. How do we get to that and that? Those things I named around inaction definitely apply to me. In the past I would attempt to organize. I would be like, is this really working? How do I even know it's working? God. Or just feeling like I can't engage with this. I'm I'm going to cry my eyeballs out if I think about this for more than five seconds. So I want to share about two main things that have helped move me from hopelessness and overwhelm into action and to stay there. So the first one is a practice of welcoming and making space for grief in my life, grief and rage. Grief and rage is often trying to remind me of what I yearn for, what I'm missing, what I care for, and what I deeply love. People say grief is love with no place to go, right? So I try to spend time with this grief to give it a place to go and do things to help it flow through me. Not to distract from it, not to get rid of it, but to let it move; to let it be. So I might like scream in my car. I might say to myself okay I'm really feeling this grief and rage today, what do I want to do? Okay, maybe i'm gonna scream my car. I'm going to listen to loud music. I'm going to go by a walk by the water. I've also been making a lot of altars and just giving thanks in nature to feel connected to what's in the world and feel like nature's helping me hold all these feelings. I might go to the gym to run out my feelings or talk to a friend. And all these things help me feel the grief and rage and let it move through me instead of sitting there and overwhelming me and demobilizing me. So instead that grief and rage can take the form of love and the care that it's trying to express. It's like I'm able to take all this pain I feel for my siblings in Gaza so that it fuels me to act instead of preventing me from acting through that overwhelm. The second thing I want to share that kind of moves me from hopelessness into action is to hone my understanding of strategy. I feel like nothing feeds hopelessness for me like pointless action, or action where the outcome and purpose is so unclear or if I'm not sure how its impact is going to play out. So for my actions to feel purposeful, I need to know, one, what is the outcome of my action? And two, how does that outcome fit into a larger plan or strategy? How does it feed into an overall goal of Palestinian liberation, per se? For example, I might tell myself, okay, I know that some protests are meant to be a part of many protests internationally that together are meant to draw more media attention or put more pressure on representatives. Other protests might happen even when the goal seems futile because to stay silent and let it happen without a fight would be even more damaging to our spirits. Maybe it serves some other purposes. Some other protests might be to directly intervene on organizations that are sending weapons and supplies and resourcing oppressive systems across the globe. Some protests are meant to directly slow that down or grind that industry to a halt. There's much more, but those are just some examples of things I think about when I go to a protest to make it really clear to myself what the function is of each action I'm a part of so I'm clear about how my little bit adds to a much larger goal, and it doesn't feel futile. And I know what the risks are, what the outcomes could be and what I'm fighting for in really certain terms, so I can have faith in my own impact. So I just want to share that long chunk as a hope that it might give other people some insight of how they might want to move out of hopelessness and let that grief and rage take another form. Cheryl: Thank you so much, Kaiyah. I was giving myself a hug just listening to you speak. It's important that we feel more rather than just feel better. We can hold all of these nuances without looking away. Cynthia, is there anything you wanted to add to that? Cynthia: I think today we're recording the Trans Day of Remembrance, and I know that this week, there is a holiday. I would encourage us to actually be celebrating the Indigenous Peoples Day. This theme of grief, rage, what we do with it, how we not let it immobilize us. I think is so sharp. This question about strategy too, because it has been 75 years of occupation, I'm actually really grateful for the leadership of Palestinians in this moment. This question of what do we do with this energy and how I've seen them move hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people all across this world to stand in solidarity. That is because of that strategy. And really, let's just get sharp. It's not just the politicians, but the weapons; manufacturing; the tech. It's all connected. How do we put our pressure where power is and contest for that? . Cheryl: As I'm listening to all of you speak, I'm hearing so much about the importance of taking care of our spirits as important and integral part of our strategy. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the importance of care and collectiveness within the Lavender Phoenix's organization and structure, and how it aligns itself with Palestinian liberation? A: I think something that I noticed that was really interesting when this latest slate of intensified violence started is people in LavNix started with, I'm going to this protest, who's coming? Then, people were pulling together Signal chats, and we were all coming together, but it was, like everyone had this urge to do something, and LavNix provided that home to do that and resources to do that. I know if I go to a protest I will have a group of people to meet up with there, and be safe with there. LavNix provides this base that allows us to take strategic, powerful action, and that's only possible because of all of the building that we have been doing before this point, like the work of our Community Safety Committee training folks on de-escalation practice, and now that folks are trained, they can go volunteer as protest marshals and do community safety work in that way. Or our healing justice committee providing peer counseling support for folks and helping folks be emotionally grounded so then in a moment of really intense violence, there's like a higher baseline of stability that allows us to do more. I think it's especially helpful in this moment. because it creates an organized resource group of people that can then go take action that is risky and difficult sometimes. Kaiyah: Yeah, I have been really appreciating how I have an organization to organize with. I have a group of people to organize with in this moment that is Lavender Phoenix, because I see so many people asking right now, Oh, I want to do something. How do I help? And while I believe that everyone can get involved and everyone can mobilize themselves if they would like to, it also is really helpful that we've already had that sense of trust built. We know each other so we can ask each other to join up on higher risk actions because we know how to work together already , whereas we wouldn't be able to ask that to a completely new stranger. Something else I was thinking about in terms of caring for each other at protests was actually a conversation I was having with another Lavender Phoenix member the other day, so I'm stealing this from them. They were asking, “What could it look like for people to feel as safe as a protest as they feel at home?” Not that we were thinking that we're ever going to get there per se, but it was just something we want to think about because I want people who join protests and actions to take really informed risks and be trained in what to expect and how they can maybe react in those situations, especially in escalated situations if that happens. On a personal level, the way I feel healing and care is showing up is again, it's similar to those grief routines. I'll often set aside time to just be really silent after a protest and be by myself, make sure I have a meal prepped at home. Maybe take some time to listen to sad music, really do my thing to move through those feelings because I can often feel really disoriented and kind of discombobulated from all the adrenaline after a protest, or maybe even more sad because it's got me thinking about everything happening to my Palestinian siblings, so that's how healing and care is showing up. Did you want to add anything, Cynthia? Cynthia: I would say it has been special to see how our membership has kind of snowballed into this collective action Started with a few of us. And then there were maybe 10 of us, 20 of us, and then at one point there were 50 of us, and it was I think a testament to trans and queer APIs just feeling that connection, feeling that love, wanting to put that love into action and do that with our community, because we know we keep us safe and we have something to contribute to the broader movement around us. Like we know we can bring that and where we organize, we contribute a lot. And so it's something to be really grateful for. Kaiyah: Yes, I feel so grateful as well. Cheryl: I'm feeling so grateful for this conversation and I'm so grateful that organizations like Lavender Phoenix exist and can cultivate these strong senses of communities. And really y'all do such a great job. Cynthia, do you mind letting us know what are ways that people can follow and stay in touch with Lavender Phoenix and what y'all are up to? Cynthia: Yeah, of course. We are celebrating a new graduating class of Rise Up members. Our organization, we're doing things externally, but also building internally. You can find us on Instagram @lavphoenix. You Google us, you'll find our website as well. Keep in touch. We'd love to see you around. Kaiyah: Trans and queer Asian and Pacific Islander people, come find us. . Cheryl: And that's the end of our show. Please check out our website, kpfa.org to learn more about Queer Crescent and Lavender Phoenix. We'd We'd like to thank all of our listeners out there. Keep dreaming folks. A better world is possible. Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong Tonight's show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening! The post APEX Express – 12.07.2023: Re-Air of Queers for a FREE PALESTINE appeared first on KPFA.

Kimberley: Welcome back, Ethan Smith. I love you. Tell me how you are. First, tell me who you are. For those who haven't heard of your brilliance, tell us who you are. Ethan: I love you. My name is Ethan Smith, and I'm a national advocate for the International OCD Foundation and just an all-around warrior for OCD, letting people know that there's help and there's hope. That's what I've dedicated my life to doing. Kimberley: You have done a very good job. I'm very, very impressed. Ethan: I appreciate that. It's a work in progress. Kimberley: Well, that's the whole point of today, right? It is a work in progress. For those of you who don't know, we have several episodes with Ethan. This is a part two, almost part three, episode, just catching up on where you're at. The last time we spoke, you were sharing about the journey of self-compassion that you're on and your recovery in many areas. Do you want to briefly catch us up on where you're at and what it's been like since we met last? Ethan: Yeah, for sure. We'll do a quick recap, like the first three minutes of a TV show where they're like, “So, you're here, and what happened before?”  Kimberley: Previously on. Ethan: Yeah, previously, on real Ethans of Coweta County, which sounds super country and rural. The last time we spoke, I was actually really vulnerable. I don't mean that as touting myself, but I said for the first time publicly about a diagnosis of bipolar. At that time, when we spoke, I had really hit a low—a new low that came from a very hypomanic episode, and it was not related to OCD. I found myself in a really icky spot. Part of the reason for coming or reaching that bottom was when I got better from OCD into recovery and maintenance, navigating life for the first time, really for the first time as an adult man in Los Angeles, which isn't an easy city, navigating the industry, which isn't the nicest place, and having been born with OCD and really that comprising the majority of my life. The next 10 years were really about me growing and learning how to live. But I don't know that I knew that at the time. I really thought it was about, okay, now we're going to succeed, and I'm going to make money, live all my dreams, meet my partner, and stuff's going to happen because OCD is not in the way. That isn't to say that that can't happen, and that wasn't necessary. I had some amazing life experiences. It wasn't like I had a horrible nine years. There were some wonderful things. But one of the things that I learned coming to this diagnosis and this conclusion was how hard I was being on myself by not “achieving” all the goals and the dreams that I set out to do for myself. It was the first time in a long time, really in my entire life, that I saw myself as a failure and that I didn't have a mental illness to blame for that failure. I looked at the past nine years, and I went, “Okay, I worked so hard to get here, and I didn't do it. I worked so hard to get here in a personal relationship, and I didn't get there. I worked so hard to get here financially, and I didn't even come close." In the past, I could always say, “Oh, OCD anxiety.” I couldn't do it. I couldn't finish it. I dropped out. That was always in the way. It was the first time I went, “Oh wow, okay, this is on Ethan. This is on me. I must not be creative enough, smart enough, good enough, strong enough, or brave enough.” That line of thinking really sent me down a really dark rabbit hole into a really tough state of depression and hypomania and just engaging in unhealthy activities and things like that until I just came crashing down. When we connected, I think I had just moved from Los Angeles to Atlanta and was resetting in a way. At that time, it very much felt like I was taking a step back. I had left Los Angeles. It just wasn't a healthy place for me at that time. My living situation was difficult because of my upstairs neighbor, and it was just very complicated. So, I ended up moving back to Georgia for work, and I ended up moving back in with my parents. I don't remember if we talked about that or not, but it was a good opportunity to reset. At that time, it very much looked and felt like I was going backwards. I just lived for 10 years on my own in Los Angeles, pursuing my dreams and goals. I was living at home when I was sick. What does this mean? I'm not ready to move. I'm not ready to leave. I haven't given up on my dream. What am I doing? I think if we skip the next three years from 2019 on, in retrospect, it wasn't taking a step back; it was taking a step forward. It was just choosing a different path that I didn't realize because that decision led to some of the healthiest, most profound experiences in my life that I'm currently living. I can look back at that moment and see, “Oh, I failed. I've given up.” This is backwards. In reality, it was such a beautiful stepping stone, and I was willing to step back to move forward, to remove myself from a situation, and then reinsert myself in something. Where I am now is I'm engaged, to be married. I guess that's what engaged means. I guess I'm not engaged with a lawyer. I'm engaged, and that's really exciting. Kimberley: Your phone isn't engaged. Ethan: Yeah, for sure, to an amazing human being. I have a thriving business. I'm legitimately doing so many things that I never thought I would do in life ever, whether it had to do with bipolar or more prominently in my life, OCD, where I spent age 20 to 31, accepting that I was home-ish bound and that was going to be my life forever and that I'm “disabled” or “handicapped,” and that's just my normal. I had that conversation with my parents. That was just something that I was going to have to live with and accept. I'm doing lots of things that I never expected to do. But what I've noticed with OCD is, as the stakes seem raised because you're engaging yourself in so many things that are value-driven and that you care about, the stakes seem higher. You have more to lose. When you're at the bottom, it's like, okay, so what? I'm already like all these things. Nothing can go wrong now because I'm about to get married to my soulmate, and my business is doing really well. I have amazing friends, and I love my OCD community. The thoughts and the feelings are much more intense again because I feel like I have a lot more to lose. Whereas I was dismissing thoughts before, now they carry a little bit more weight and importance to me because I'm afraid of losing the things that I care about more. There's other people in my life. It's not just about me. With that mindset came not a disregard but almost forgetting how to be self-compassionate with myself. One of the things that came out of that bipolar diagnosis in my moving forward was the implementation of active work around self-compassion. I did workbooks, I worked very closely with my therapist, and we proactively did tons and tons of work in self-compassion. You can interrupt me at any time, because I'll keep babbling. So, please feel free to interrupt. I realized that I was not practicing self-compassion in my life at all. I don't know that I ever had. Learning self-compassion was like learning Japanese backwards. It was the most confusing thing in the world. The analogy that I always said: my therapist, who I've been with for 13 years, would say to me, “You just need to accept where you are and embrace where you are right now. It's okay to be there. Give yourself grace.” She would say all these things.  I always subscribe to the likes of, “You have to work harder. You can't lift yourself off the hook. Drive, drive, drive, drive.” That was what I knew. I tried to fight her on her logic. I said, “If there's a basketball team and they're in the finals and it's halftime and they're down by 10, does the coach go to the basketball team and say, ‘Hey guys, let's just appreciate where we are right now; let's just be in this moment and recognize that we're down by 10 and be okay with that.'” I'm like, “No, of course not. He doesn't go in there and say that. He goes, ‘You better get it together and all this stuff.'” I remember my therapist goes, “Yeah, but they're getting out of bed.” I'm like, “Oh, okay, that's the difference.” They're actually living their life. I'm completely paralyzed because I'm just beating myself down.  But what I've learned in the last three or four years is that self-compassion is a continuous work in progress for me and has to be like a conscious, intentional practice. I found myself in the last year really not giving myself a lot of self-compassion. There's a myriad of reasons why, but I really wanted to come on and talk about it with you and just share some of my own experiences, pitfalls, and things that I've been dealing with.  I will say the last two years have probably been the hardest couple of years and the most beautiful simultaneously, but hard in terms of OCD, thoughts and triggers, anxiety, and just my overall baseline comfort level being raised because, again, there's so many beautiful things happening. That terrifies me. I mean, we know OCD is triggered by good stress or bad stress. So, this is definitely one of those circumstances where the stakes seem higher. They seem raised, so I need more certainty. I need it. I have to have more certainty. I don't, really. I'm okay with uncertainty, but part of that component is the amount of self-compassion that I give myself. I haven't been the best at it the last couple of years, especially in the last six months. I haven't been so good. Kimberley: I think this is very validating for people, myself included, in that when you are functioning, it doesn't seem like it's needed. But when we're not functioning, it also doesn't feel like it's needed. So, I want to catch myself on that. What are some roadblocks that you faced in the implementation of this journey of self-compassion or the practice of self-compassion? What gets in the way for you? Ethan: I will give you a specific example. It's part of my two-year journey. In the last year and a half, I started working with a nutritionist. Physical health has become more important to me. It may not look like that, but getting there, a work in progress. But the reality of it is, and this is just true, I'm marrying a woman who's 12 years younger than me. I want to be a dad. I can't wait to have children. The reality of my life—which I'm very accepting of my current reality, which was something I wasn't, and we were probably talking about that before—was like, I wanted to be younger. I hated that everything was happening now. I wasn't embracing where I was and who I was in that reality. I'm very at peace with where I am, but the reality of my reality is that I will be an older father. So, a value-driven thing for me to do is get healthier physically because I want to be able to run around and play catch in 10 years with my kid. I would be 55 or 60 and be able to be in their lives for as long as I possibly could. I started working with a nutritionist, and for me, weight has always been an issue. Always. It has been a lifelong struggle for me. I've always yo-yoed. It's always been about emotional eating. It's always been a coping mechanism for me. I started working with a nutritionist. She's become a really good friend, an influence in my life, and an accountability partner. I'm not on a diet or lifestyle change. There's no food off the table. I track and I journal. But in doing this, I told her from the beginning, "In the first three months, I will be the best client you've ever had,” because that's what I do—I start perfectly. Then something happens, and I get derailed. I was like, my goal is to come back on when I get derailed. That is the goal for me. And that's exactly what happened. I was the star student for three months. I didn't miss a beat. I lost 15 pounds. The goal wasn't weight loss, mind you; it was just eating healthier and making more intentional choices. Then I had some OCD pipe up, my emotions were dysregulated, and I really struggled with the nutrition piece. I did get back on track.  Over the last year, I gained about seven pounds doing this nutrition. Over the last six months, I was so angry at myself for looking at my year's journey. This is just an example of multiple things with self-compassion, but this is the most concrete and tangible I can think of at the moment. But looking at my year and looking at it with that black-and-white OCD brain and saying, “I failed. I'm a piece of crap. I'm not where I want to be on my journey. I've had all of the support I could possibly have. I have all the impetus. I want to be thinner for my wedding. I want to look my best at my wedding. What is wrong with me? In these vulnerable emotional states or these moments of struggle, why did I give in?” In the last couple of months, I literally refused to give myself any compassion or grace around food, screw-ups, mess-ups, and any of that. I refused. My partner Katie would tell me, “Ethan, you have to love--” I'm like, “No, I do not deserve it.” I'm squandering this opportunity. I just wholeheartedly refused to give myself compassion. Because it's always been an issue, I'm like, “What's it going to take?” Well, compassion can't be the answer. I need tough love for myself.  I think I did this in a lot of areas of my life because, for me, I don't know, there's a stigma around self-compassion. Sometimes, even though I understand what it is on paper-- and I've read your workbook and studied a lot of Kristin Neff, who's an amazing self-compassion expert. On paper, I can know what it is, which is simply embracing where you are in the moment without judgment and still wanting better for yourself and giving yourself that grace and compassion, regardless of where it is.  I felt like I couldn't do that anymore because I wasn't supposed to. I wasn't allowed. I suddenly reframed self-compassion as a weakness and as an excuse rather than-- it was very much how I thought about it before I even learned anything about self-compassion, and I found myself just not a very loving person myself. My internal self-talk was really horrible and probably the worst. If somebody was talking to me like this, you always try to make it external and be like, “Oh, if somebody talked to you like this, would they be your friend? Would you listen to them?” I was calling myself names. I gave myself a room. It was almost in every facet of my life, and it was really, really eating at me. It took a significant-- yeah, go ahead. Kimberley: When I'm with clients and we're talking about behaviors, we always talk about the complex outcomes of them, like the consequences that you were being hard on yourself, that it still wasn't working, and so forth. But then we always spend some time looking at, let's say, somebody is drinking excessively or doing any behavior that's not helpful to them. We also look at why it was helping them, because we don't do things unless we think they're helping. What was the reason you engaged in the criticism piece? How did that serve you in those moments? Ethan: It didn't, in retrospect. In the moment, I think behaving in that way feels much like grabbing a spear and putting on armor. I don't know if it's stigma or male stigma. I mean, I've always had no problem being sensitive, being open to sensitivity, and being who I am as an individual. But with all of this good in my life, my emotions are more intense. My thoughts are more intense. My OCD is more intense. I felt like I needed to put on-- I basically defaulted to my original state of thinking before I even learned about self-compassion, which is head down, bull horns out, and I'm just going to charge through all of this because it's the only way. It's just like losing insight. When you're struggling with OCD, it's like you lose insight, you lose objectivity. It's like there's only one way through this.  I think it's important to note, in addition to the self-compassion piece, this year especially, there's been some physical things and some somatic symptoms that I've gotten really stuck on. I'm really grateful that-- and I love to talk about it with advocacy. It's like, advocates, all of us, just because we're speaking doesn't mean that we have an OCD-free life or a struggle-free life. That's just not it. I always live by the mantra: more good days than bad. That is my jam. I'm pleased to report that in the last 13 years, I've still had more good days than bad, but it doesn't mean that I don't have a tough month.  I think that in the last couple of years, I've definitely been challenged in a new way because there's been some things that have come up that are valid. I have a lot of health anxiety, and they've been actual physical things that have manifested, that are legitimate things. Of course, my catastrophic brain grabs onto them. You Google once, and it's over. I have three and a half minutes to live for a brown toenail, and-- Kimberley: You died already. Ethan: I'm already dead. I think it all comes back around to this idea of self-stigma, that even if you know all this stuff like, I'm not allowed to struggle, I'm not allowed to suffer, I have to be a rock, I have to be all things to all people—it's all these very black and white rules that are impossible for a human being to live by because that's just not reality. I mean, I think that's why the tough exterior came back because it was like, “All right, life is more challenging.” The beautiful thing about recovery is, for the most part, it didn't affect my functioning, which was amazing. I could still look at every day and go, “I was 70% present,” or “I was 60% present and 40% in my head, but still being mindful and still doing work and still showing up and still traveling.” From somebody that was completely shut down, different people respond in different ways to OCD. From somebody who came from completely shutting down and being bedridden, this was a huge win. But for me, it wasn't a huge win in my head. It was a massive failing on my part. What was I doing wrong? How was it?  Just as much as I would talk every week on my live streams and talk about, it's a disease, not a decision, it's a disorder. I can say that all day long, but there are times when it tricks me, and I stigmatize myself around it.  It's been very much that in the last year, for sure. It's been extremely challenging facing this new baseline for myself. Because, let's face it, I'm engaging in things that I've never experienced before. I've never been in a three-year relationship with a woman. I've never been engaged. I've never bought a house. Outside of acting, I've never owned a business or been a businessperson. I mean, these are all really big commitments in life, and I'm doing them for the first time.  If I have insight now and it's like, I can have this conversation and say, “Yeah, I have every reason to be self-compassionate with myself.” These are all brand new things with no instruction manual. But it's very easy to lose sight of that insight and objectivity and to sit there and say-- we do a lot of comparing, so it's very easy to go, “Well, these are normal human things. Everybody gets married. Everybody works. This should be easy.” You talk about, like, never compare struggles, ever. If somebody walks to the mailbox and you can't, never compare struggles. But that's me going, “Well, this is normal life stuff. It's hard. Well, what's wrong with me?” Kimberley: Right. I think, for me, when I'm thinking about when you're talking, I go in and out of beating myself up for my parenting, because, gosh, I can't seem to perfect this parenting gig. I just can't. I have to figure it out. What's so interesting is when I start beating myself up and if I catch myself, I often ask myself, what would I have to feel if I had to accept that I'm not great at this? I actually suck at this. It's usually that I don't want to feel that. I will beat myself up to avoid having to feel the feelings that I'm not doing it right. That has been a gateway for me, like a little way to access the self-compassion piece. It's usually because I don't want to feel something. And that, for me, has been really helpful.  I think that when you're talking about this perceived failure—because that's what it is. It's a perceived failure, like we're all a failure compared to the person who's a little bit further ahead of us—what is it that you don't want to feel? Ethan: It's a tough question. You've caught me speechless, which is rare for me. I'm glad you're doing video because otherwise, this would be a very boring section of the podcast. For me, the failing piece isn't as much of an issue. It was before. I don't feel like I've failed. In fact, I feel like I'm living more into where I'm supposed to be in my values. I think for me, the discomfort falls around being vulnerable and not in control. I think those are two areas that I really struggle with. I always say, sometimes I feel like I'm naked in a sandstorm. That's how I feel. That's the last thing you want to be. Well, you don't want to be in a sandstorm—not naked, but naked in a sandstorm—you don't want to see me naked at all. That's the bottom line. No nudity from Ethan. But regardless, you're probably alone in the sandstorm. You feel the stinging and all of that. No, I'm just saying that's what I picture it feels like.  Kimberley: Yeah, it's an ouch. That feels like an ouch. Ethan: It feels like a big ouch. I think that vulnerability, for me, is scary. I'm not good at showing vulnerability. Meaning, I have no problem within our community. I'll talk about it all day long. I'll talk about what happened yesterday or the day before. I'll be vulnerable. But for people who don't know me, I struggle with it.  Kimberley: Me too. Ethan: Yeah. We all have our public faces. But vulnerability scares me in terms of being a human being, being fallible, and not being able to live up to expectations. What if I have to say I can't today? Or I'm just not there right now and not in control of things that scare me. Those feelings, I think, have really thrown me a bit more than usual, again. I keep saying this because things feel more at stake, and they're not, but I feel like I have so much more to live for. That's not saying that I didn't feel like I didn't have a reason to live before. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply saying, dreams come true, and how lucky am I? But when dreams come true with OCD, it latches onto the things we care about most and then says, “That's going to be taken away from you. Here are all the things you have to do to protect that thing.” I think it'd been a long time since I'd really faced that.  To answer your question in short, I think, for me, vulnerability and uncertainty around what I can't control, impacting the things that I care about most, are scary. Kimberley: I resonate so much with what you're saying. I always explain to my eating disorder clients, “When you have an eating disorder and you hit your goal weight, you would think we would celebrate and be like, ‘Okay, I hit it. I'm good now.'” But now there's the anxiety that you're going to go backwards. Even though you've hit this ridiculous goal, this unhealthy goal, the anxiety is as high as it ever was because the fear of losing what you've got is terrifying. I think that's so true for so many people. And I do agree with you. I think that we do engage in a lot of self-criticism because it feels safer than the vulnerability, the loss of control, or whatever that we have to feel. What has been helpful for you in moving back towards compassion? I know you said it's like an up-and-down journey, and we're all figuring this out as we go. What's been helpful for you? Ethan: A couple of things. I think it's worth talking about, or at least bringing up this idea of core fear. I've done some recent core fear work, just trying to determine, at the root of everything, what is my core fear? For me, it comes down to suffering. I'm afraid of suffering. I'm not afraid of dying; I'm afraid of suffering. I'm afraid of my entire life having to be focused on health and disease because that's what living with OCD when I was really sick was about. It's all I focused on. So, I'm so terrified of my life suddenly being refocused on that.  Even if I did come down with something awful, it doesn't mean that my life has to solely focus on that thing. But in my mind, my core fear is, what if I have to move away from these values that I'm looking at right now and face something different? That scares the crap out of me.  The first thing around that core fear is the willingness to let that be there and give myself compassion and grace, and what does that look like, which is a lot of things. This fear—this new fear and anxiety—hasn't stopped me from moving forward in any way, but it sure has made it a little bit more uncomfortable and taken a little bit of the joy out of it. That's where I felt like I needed to put on a second warrior helmet and fight instead of not resisting, opening myself up, and being willing to be naked in a sandstorm.  One of the things that I've learned most about is, as a business owner yourself, and if you're a workaholic, setting boundaries in self-care is really hard. I didn't really connect until this year the connection, the correlation between self-care and self-compassion. If I don't have self-compassion, I won't allow myself to give myself self-care. I won't. I won't do it because I don't deserve it. There's a very big difference between time off, not working, sleeping, but then actually taking care of yourself. It's three different things. There's working, there's not working, and then there's self-care. I didn't know that either. It was like, “Well, I didn't work tonight.” Well, that's not necessarily self-care. You just weren't in a meeting, or you weren't working on something. Self-care is proactive. It's purposeful. It's intentional.  Giving myself permission to say no to things, even at the risk of my own reputation, because I feel like saying no is a big bad word, because that shows that I can't handle everything at once, Kim. I can't do it all. And that is a no-no for me. Like, no, no, no, everybody needs to believe that you can do everything everywhere all at once, which was a movie. That's the biggest piece of it.  Recently, I was able to employ some self-care where it was needed at the risk of the optic seeming. I felt like, "Here I am, world. I'm weak, and I can't handle it anymore." That's what I feel like is on the other end.  I was sick, and I had been traveling every week since the end of March. I don't sleep very well. I just don't. When I'm going from bed to bed, I really don't sleep well. I had been in seven or eight cities in seven or eight weeks. I had been home for 24 hours. This was only three weeks ago, and I was about to head out on my last trip, and the meeting that I was going for, the primary reason, got canceled, not by me. I was still going to meet with people that I love and enjoy. I woke up the day before I was traveling, and I was sick. I was like, “Oh man, do I still go?” The big reason was off the table, but there were still many important reasons to go, but I was exhausted. I was tired. I was sick. My body was saying, “Enough.” I had enough insight to say, I'm not avoiding this. This isn't anxiety. This is like straight up.  When I texted the team—this is around work and things that I value—I was like, “I'm not coming.” I said, “I'm not coming.” They responded, “We totally understand. Take care of yourself.” And what I read was, “You weak ass bastard. You should suck it up and come here, because that's what I would have done. Why are you being so lame and lazy?” That is what I read. This is just an instance of what I generally feel if I can't live up to an expectation. I always put these non-human pressures on myself.  But making this choice, within two days, I was able to reset intentionally. This doesn't mean I'm going to go to bed and avoid life. I rested for a day because I needed to sleep to get better. But the next few days were filled with value-driven decisions and choices and walks and exercising and getting back on nutrition and drinking lots of water and spending quality time with people that I care about, and my body and brain just saying, “You need a moment.” Within a couple of days, everything changed. My OCD quickly dropped back down to baseline. My anxiety quickly dropped back down. I had insight and objectivity.  When I went back to work later that week—I work from home—I was way more effective and efficient. But I wouldn't have been able to do that. It was very, very hard to give myself self-compassion around making that simple decision that everybody was okay with. Kimberley: I always say my favorite saying is, “I'm sorry, but I'm at capacity right now.” That has changed my life because it's true. It's not even a lie. I'm constantly at capacity, and I find that people do really get it. But for me to say that once upon a time, I feel this. When I was sick, the same thing. I'm going to think I'm a total nutcase if I keep saying no to these people. But that is my go-to sentence, “I'm at capacity right now,” and it's been so helpful.  Ethan: In max bandwidth.  Kimberley: Yes. What I think is interesting too is I think for those who have been through recovery and have learned not to do avoidant behaviors and have learned not to do compulsions, saying “I need a break” feels like you've broken the rules of ERP. They're different things. Ethan: You hit them down. I was literally going to say that. It also felt when I made that decision that it felt old history to me, like old Ethan, pre-getting better. I make the joke. It was true. I killed my grandfather like 20 times while he was still alive. Grandpa died. I can't come to the thing. I can't travel. I can't do the thing. This was early 2000s, but I had a fake obituary that I put into Photoshop. I would just change the date so I can email it to them later and be like, it really happened. I would do this. It's like, here was a reason. It was 100% valid. Nobody questioned it. It was not based on OCD. It was a value-driven decision, and it felt so icky. My body felt like I might as well have sent a fake obituary to these people about the fake death of my grandfather. It felt like that. So, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Kimberley: I think it's so important that we acknowledge that post-recovery or during recovery is that saying acts of compassion sometimes will feel like and sound like they're compulsions when they're actually not.  Ethan: That's such a great point. I totally agree with you. Kimberley: They're actually like, I am actually at capacity. Or the expectation was so large, which for you, it sounds like it is for me too—the expectation was so large, I can't meet that either. That sucks. It's not fun.  Ethan: No, it's not. It's not because, I mean, there's just these scales that we weigh ourselves on and what we think we can account for. I mean, the pressure that we put on ourselves. And that's why, like the constant practice of self-compassion, the constant practice of being mindful and mindfulness, this constant idea of-- I mean, I always forget the exact thing, but you always say, I strive to be a B- or C+. I can never remember if it's a B- or C+, but-- Kimberley: B-. Ethan: B-. Okay, cool.  Kimberley: C+ if you really need it. Ethan: Yeah. To this day, I heard that 10 years ago, and I still struggle with that saying because I'm like, I don't even know that I can verbally say it. Like, I want to be a B... okay, that's good enough. Because it sounds terrifying. It's like, “No, I want to be an A+ at everything I do.”  I know we're closing in on time. One of the things I just wanted to say is thank you not only for being an amazing human being, an amazing advocate, an amazing clinician, and an okay mom, as we talked about. Kimberley: Facts. #facts. Ethan: But part of the reason I love advocating is I really didn't come on here to share a specific point or get something across that I felt was important. I think it's important as an advocate figure for somebody who doesn't like transparency or vulnerability to be as transparent and vulnerable as possible and let people see a window into somebody that they may look at and go, “That person doesn't struggle ever. I want to be like that. I see him every week on whatever, and he's got it taken care of. Even when it's hard, it isn't that hard.”  For me, being able to come on and give a window into Ethan in the last six months is so crucial and important. I want to thank you for letting me be here and share a little bit about my own life and where I met the goods and the bads. I wouldn't trade any of it, but I appreciate you. Kimberley: No, thank you. I so appreciate that because it is an up-and-down journey and we're all figuring it out, myself included. You could have interviewed me and I could have done similar things. Like here are the ways that I suck and really struggle with self-compassion. Here are the times where I've completely forgotten about it as a skill until my therapist is like, “Uh, you wrote this book about this thing that you might want to practice a little more of.” I think that it's validating to hear that learning it once is not all you need; it is a constant practice. Ethan: Yeah, it definitely is. Self-compassion is, to me, one of the most important skills and tools that we have at our disposal. It doesn't matter if you have a mental health issue or not. It's just an amazing way of life. I think I'll always be a student of it. It still feels like Japanese backwards sometimes. But I'm a lot better at putting my hand-- well, my heart's on that side, but putting my hand in my heart, and letting myself feel and be there for myself. I never mind. I'm a huge, staunch advocate of silver linings. I've said this a million times, and I'll always say, having been on the sidelines of life and not being able to participate, when life gets hard and stressful, deep down, I still have gratitude toward it because that means I'm actually living and participating. Even when things feel crappy or whatever, I know there'll be a lesson from it. I know good things will come of it. I try to think of those things as they're happening. It's meaningful to me because it gives me insight and lets me know that there'll be a lesson down the road. I don't know if it'll pay itself back tomorrow or in 10 years, but someday I'll be able to look at that and be like, “Well, I got to reintroduce myself to self-compassion. I got to go on Kim Quinlan's podcast, Your Anxiety Toolkit, and be able to talk to folks about my experience.” While I didn't quite enjoy it, it was a life experience, and it was totally worth it for these reasons. Now I get to turn my pain into my purpose. I think that's really cool. Kimberley: Yeah, I do too. I loved how you said before that moving home felt like it was going backwards, but it was actually going completely forward. I think that is the reality of life. You just don't know until later what it's all about. I'm so grateful for you being on the show. Thank you so much for coming on again. Ethan: Well, thanks for having me, and we'll do one in another 200 episodes. Kimberley: Yes, let's do it. Ethan: Okay.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.   DESCRIPTION: Sheenaz and Saba of Queer Crescent and Cynthia, Kaiyah, and A of Lavender Phoenix join Cheryl for this week's episode of APEX Express! This first half of the episode dives into the insincerity of pinkwashing and the ways it has been utilized by the Israeli government to exploit LGBTQIA+ rights to distract from their oppressive policies towards Palestinians, both queer and non-queer. Sheenaz and Saba brilliantly expose the ways pinkwashing perpetuates Islamophobia and racist tropes about Palestinians, along with Arab, Muslim, and SWANA communities and shed light on the long history of trans and queer organizing within Palestine, uplifting work of Al Qaws, an organization at the forefront of Palestinian cultural and social change that builds LGBTQ communities and promotes new ideas about the role of gender and sexual diversity in political activism, civil society institutions, media, and everyday life. Queer Crescent urges queer organizations and leaders to speak up, take action, and demand a ceasefire, writing that “As trans, queer and non-binary people we understand too well what is at stake when our self-determination and sovereignty are removed. Palestine is a queer issue, and it is our duty to listen and learn from queer Palestinians who are living under Israeli occupation, and in the imposed Diaspora”. You can sign on to Queer Crescent's ceasefire campaign at bit.ly/PalestineisaQueerIssue. In the second half of the show we are joined by Cynthia, Kaiyah, and A of Lavender Phoenix who emphasize the importance of care within the Palestine Liberation movement, urging our listeners to not fall into feelings of inaction. They highlight the importance of grief routines and using grief and rage as tools for momentum, and ask the provoking difficult question: What could it look like for people to feel as safe at a protest as they feel at home? We also gain intimate insight into the ways Lavender Phoenix has been organizing, as Cynthia, Kaiyah, and A emphasize the interconnectedness of all of our struggles and the interconnectedness of all of our freedoms. IMPORTANT LINKS + RESOURCES: Queer Crescent's website Queer Crescent's Call for Ceasefire Sign-On Queer Crescent's Pinkwashing Resources Al Qaws's website Lavender Phoenix's website SHOW TRANSCRIPT: Cheryl: Good evening. You are tuned into apex express. We are bringing you an Asian American and Pacific Islander point of view from the bay and around the world. I'm your host, Cheryl and tonight is an acre night, which is short for Asian Americans for civil rights and equality. Apex express is proud to be one of the 11 API social justice groups within the acre network, working to advance positive social change. Tonight, we have two very spectacular guests here with us, Shenaaz and Saba from Queer Crescent. It is such an honor to have you both here with us today. Do you mind introducing yourselves? Who are you and who are your people? Saba: Hi, I'm Saba Taj. I am the communications coordinator for Queer Crescent. And, who are my people? Oh gosh, this is a beautiful question, and I think one that, changes at different moments. In large part, I really feel like I am on the side of humanity and Global dignity. As a queer Muslim from the South that struggle for our collective dignity often centers folks whom I share identities with and just more broadly, really thinking about individuals who are marginalized on multiple fronts. And so, yeah, that's a really kind of vague answer. There's a lot of different folks that are included, but, I hope that answers it for you. Shenaaz: Yeah, thanks Cheryl for inviting Saba and I on the show. Hi folks, I'm Shenaaz Janmohamed. I'm the founder and executive director of Queer Crescent. I've been asked this question ” who are my people” at different times and in the past would have this litany of folks that come to mind: parents, queers, misfits, etc. And I think what I'm feeling now and what I've noticed is that litany of folks can sometimes make the world feel smaller. What I'm pushing and striving towards is feeling a sense of home with more and more folks where there's political alignment. There's values alignment. We're struggling together. So this notion of who are my people feels like it's more of a question than it's an answer. And it keeps me hungry for finding more and more.  Cheryl: Wow. Thank you both so much for your thoughtful answers and for setting the tone of our conversation in such a provocative and intentional way.. Do you mind telling us about Queer Crescent, the work that you do, and also about your current cease fire campaign? Shenaaz: Sure, yeah, I can kick us off and then Saba feel free to weigh in. So Queer Crescent, started really as a response to the ways in which many of us, I say queer Muslim and I really mean the range of LGBTQIA plus experiences, trans folks, non binary folks, intersex folks, et cetera. So Queer Crescent really started as a drop-in support group when the Muslim and African travel ban was imposed in 2017. At the time I was working as a mental health worker largely with high schoolers and I also had a private practice. As a queer Muslim recent parent at the time was really feeling like a sense of placelessness and lack of political home where all parts of me would be held whole. And so I put together a support group and it was an overwhelming response in the community. Over 30 people would show up every two weeks. I've lived in the bay for about eight nine years at the time and I was meeting so many different people. Really the seedling of that support group led to this more national organization stretching towards base building and power building with marginal Muslims, queer Muslims. It really was like trying to create a space where we could be held and seen and move from that place of the complexity and the entireties of our identities. In terms of the ceasefire campaign, I'll kind of foreground it and then kick it to Saba, over the last several years that Queer Crescent has grown we've been able to build really solid relationships with other movement partners and other queer organizations. And linking to Palestine solidarity around bodily autonomy has always been something that has been top of mind. The assaults on Gaza are consistent and they have been for many years so when October 7th happened and the assault on Gaza and this genocide has been so intense, it required all hands on deck. Many folks who are committed to the liberation of Palestine have been calling for ceasefire. And so I asked myself, what can Queer Crescent do to play a role in calling for ceasefire and what are the links that are possible to make. Pinkwashing was a natural connect because it is very much a queer issue. Queer organizations like Al Qaws in Palestine and so many others have been talking to us about pinkwashing and making those links. It felt like a good opportunity to call for ceasefire while also doing some political education around the importance of queer people understanding and interrupting and taking on pinkwashing as part of queer liberation. Saba: Shenaaz, I feel like you covered the grounding. That was, I think, perfect. But Cheryl, there's additional questions about the campaign.  Cheryl: Yes! I have many questions. For starters, what is pink washing and Saba I'm taking this line directly from Queer Crescent's ceasefire campaign description, which you wrote. How is pinkwashing used as a strategy to advance Zionist colonial violence? Saba: Yeah. So pinkwashing is a form of propaganda that's used by Israel. The aim of it is ultimately to dehumanize the Palestinian people and use this racist trope that Arabs and Muslims and Middle Eastern SWANA people are anti queer and trans and are ultimately homophobic and backwards. It's part of a larger narrative of these groups of people not being with the times and trying to create some sort of image. Not trying to, but very actively pushing a story that Israel is the place of progress, of freedom, when in fact they are using these stories of Palestinians, Muslims, et cetera, being homophobic as an excuse to dehumanize them as cover for their own violent actions. So it's a distraction from their racist and violent policies, projecting an image of freedom and safety for queer people in Israel that is not in fact true. You can't be for queer liberation while also bombing these people and oppressing this entire group. There's no way for those things to happen at the same time, and I think it's part of a larger strategy that we see also play out in terms of feminism. That story is very familiar, where after 9 11, we have to go save Muslim women from these evil, savage Muslim men, and to do so, we're going to bomb all of these communities.  It's a strategy you utilize to justify violence. It splits our communities in ways like a divide and conquer sort of tactic; this larger story of you can't be queer and Muslim at the same time, or you can't be a feminist and be Muslim at the same time. And that ultimately serves to split our movements and reinforce a racist stereotype that makes the larger public feel that it is justified to behave in violent and oppressive ways towards an entire people through some excuse that they actually don't care about one another. Shenaaz, if you want to jump in. Shenaaz: I appreciate the links you're making and ultimately I think pinkwashing strategies or the splitting that you're talking about requires a betrayal of the self. Only if you betray some part of yourself can you feel a sense of belonging. And as queer people in our queer bodies, we know that is just not the case.  When your experience is being exploited, it's very evident. The work ahead is both combating the colonial violence, making the violence stop, demanding ceasefire now, and the continuous work of continuing to show up in our full selves as queer people, and affirm our sense of belonging within our communities despite both the state violence and the ways in which our belonging is interrupted, both from external forces and internal.  Cheryl: Thank you both so much. I think that imagery of splitting. And the ways pink washing shows up, especially for queer Muslim people is really powerful, especially that line Shenaaz, pink washing requires a betrayal of the self. Could either of you talk a little bit more on the impact of this splitting internally within SWANA communities.  Shenaaz: Well, I don't think that Saba and I could speak to experiences of SWANA folk because neither Saba and I are SWANA, we're both South Asian. I think the ways in which we come into this conversation, as folks who are Muslim who grew up in Muslim community and that adjacent experience, where Queer Crescent's central project is to blow breath into what it means to be a Muslim. And so Muslim multiplicity, nuance, contradictions, self determination around what your relationship to Muslim is, and a self determined Muslim identity. One of the many functions of Islamophobia and anti Muslim racism as an outgrowth of white supremacy is to dehumanize people.  In the case of what Saba was saying earlier, it limits what can be possible of a people. There's this assertion that Muslim communities are inherently homophobic, inherently patriarchal. There were queer Muslim folks prior to colonization. It was the advent of colonization with it's imposed Christian, dogmatic, very strict notions of gender that actually interrupted what was otherwise a much more fluid sense of gender. So part of it is understanding those lineages and that history. And then it's also confronting the realities that are present today.  Saba: Yeah. I think it also really obscures a lot of reality as well.  One that there are queer Palestinians who are organizing and doing this work within their own communities, Al Qaws being folks that we really look to and want to amplify and follow their leadership. But even in the U. S., you can really see clearly this story of we are in the United States, the harbingers of progress, and yet anti trans laws and the oppression, the silencing of queer people and trans people in this country– we haven't solved these things. . It's a story that is used for a particular purpose and that purpose is just to justify war. That is the actual priority. It's not about queer liberation. It feels incredibly obvious that is not actually the priority of the United States or of Israel, especially when if they were actually to be for progress, for queer and trans liberation, by design, that means you would not be moving in these ways. Cheryl: That was perfectly said.  There is the strange dissonance going on with pink washing that, just as you said Saba, has nothing to do with trans and queer liberation at all. I know queer Crescent has compiled a thorough pink washing resource list. How can our listeners access that? Saba: We put out a call to queer orgs to sign on to a letter that outlines that Palestine is a queer issue and is naming pinkwashing in particular as a framework that we need to be very familiar with because it's a copy paste situation. This pinkwashing strategy is used really clearly and blatantly by Israel but also more broadly applied in other circumstances as well. So really calling on queer folks to understand that we have stakes in this and as Organizations as individuals who are committed to that liberation. We must recognize and move in a way that centers Palestine also as a queer issue, connect to it in that way. It is our responsibility. So the letter is online. It's bit.ly/PalestineisaQueerIssue. It can also be found via our Instagram. It's one of the links in our bio as well as the pinkwashing resources, which can be further accessed via that letter. That's a great way to get connected with us. We are also planning some pinkwashing teach ins, so that we can help further this political education and make those connections so folks feel empowered to speak on this issue and bring more folks into calling for a ceasefire, understanding that this is in our broad interest as a community of LGBTQI plus organizations and individuals. Shenaaz: Yeah. The only piece that I would add is this is a really horrific. moment of witnessing genocide and the fight for a free Palestine is a long fight. And so this is also a moment to shore up deeper solidarity. And part of solidarity is supporting people with learning the ways in which they, our struggles are connected.  And again really helping queer people understand pink washing, both as such a well oiled used tool of Israel and its settler colonial project and occupation of Palestine, but also the ways in which Israel is this. Model for other colonial powers to learn from through military, through cops and also pinkwashing.  We see, for example, India adopting pinkwashing strategies as well to again blur its power and its own project of ethnic cleansing of Muslims, Dalits, Christians, and anyone who doesn't subscribe to the Hindu fascist notion Modi and his government is trying to push. And so it's also really important for queer people to understand this strategy of pinkwashing, to interrupt the Israeli propaganda, but also to notice and be on alert for other colonial and state forces that also use pinkwashing to further other political gains that are in direct opposition to us having safety and bodily autonomy and freedoms. Cheryl: All of these amazing resources will also be linked within our show notes. For maybe one of the final questions do you mind expanding more about this interconnectedness between all of our movements, how to quote from the ceasefire campaign “as a queer Muslim org we recognize that there is no queer trans non binary and femme Muslim liberation without Palestine. Could you expand on this a little bit more? Saba: Yeah. the interconnectedness of our struggles is just such a critical piece, that shows up in this moment and so many others. And I can track that and name as a queer Muslim person, the Black Lives Matter movement was also integral. When we think about our freedom, we must always be looking towards how we can disrupt, dismantle systems of oppression, of policing, of dehumanization that are perpetuated across so many different lines. And that connection I think is really critical because it becomes so easy to think about safety on an individual level. How can I personally be comfortable? How can I personally be safe? But oftentimes what that requires within a capitalist framework is somebody else not being safe.  As long as our systems of safety are contingent on the oppression of one or many groups, none of us are actually safe. If you look deep into policy, just to further articulate this, the Patriot Act not only impacted Muslims in the U. S. and more broadly, but immigrants. We're not only Muslim, you see that police violence in the U. S. is not disconnected. Anti blackness that is so obvious and rife in our policing in the United States is also in relationship with Israel. Much of the police across the nation is trained by Israeli IDF. And if we're not actually seeing those connections, then ultimately we are not dismantling those larger systems that serve to direct their violence, their silencing towards different groups at different times, but ultimately all serve to uphold white supremacy.  I think it can be very tempting when it feels like the target is not specifically on our own back to feel like maybe we can find some safety by being close have some proximity to whiteness in different moments. And we really need to resist that urge. Even when they're not looking directly at us, if there is a group of people who are being named as enemy, who are being actively dehumanized whether that is subtle or blatant, that is all of our business, and those are strategies that will be certainly used against us at a different time when it's in the interest of consolidating white supremacy.  These strategies can be used to target so many of us. Also this notion that we are separate groups is also often not the case. There is overlap so we must, at all turns, be on the side of liberation, on the side of pushing for community care, as opposed to our money going towards violence, which is the root of so much of this. The interests of the  S. and Israel is power at the expense of people, not actually about how to care for their own people.  Shenaaz: Yeah, if I could just build on that as well. I think that's such an important point that you're making when there is one community that is facing assault in this case, Palestine and Palestinian liberation movement organizers. It also becomes a moment where harmful policies and decisions are made in rapid fire to your point around the Patriot Act. For example, right now there is the potential of a reauthorization of section 702, which is a section of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and Queer Crescent is a part of many other Muslim progressive organizations that are trying to resist this. But this moment of increased violence against Palestinians that is being met by mass mobilization in the form of protest, of shutting things down, deep solidarity is being met from the elected official side and the state side with more more strategies for repression. We're seeing much more police force at protest. And then we're seeing things like the reauthorization and the expansion of the surveillance apparatus and the surveillance state. And so while that is Popping up in response to the swell of solidarity with Palestine, everyone will suffer under more expansion of surveillance, not just Palestinians, not just Muslims, right. So it is then both our responsibility to be in solidarity as people who are committed to liberation for a free Palestine, but is also tactically and strategic for us to be stronger together. And those that are the most vulnerable under increased suppression and surveillance are those that the most on the margins, be it poor working class, disabled, queer, trans, sex workers, incarcerated, et cetera. There's always so many things happening simultaneously and we need each other, you know, in short. Cheryl: We do need each other. Well, Shenaaz, Saba, thank you both so, so much for being on tonight's show. For all of our listeners out there, to stay in contact and to keep up with Queer Crescent's work, Shenaaz, do you mind reminding us one last time how our listeners can keep up with Queer Crescent?  Shenaaz: Yeah you can follow us, our website is queercrescent.org. Thanks to Saba, we have a pretty active social media presence through Instagram, so it's @queercrescent. And then the amazing, resources and call for ceasefire, is at bit.ly/PalestineisaQueerIssue  Thank you so much for having us on, Cheryl, and I think it's really important before we end to give a strong solidarity and love to Al Qaws, the Palestinian queer organization in Palestine, who have been talking to many of us about pinkwashing, about resisting colonialism, and about really centering liberation and queerness as two things that are not mutually exclusive, but part of the same liberation project. They've got great resources, really encourage folks to support them, learn from them and follow their lead in the ways that we are trying to do with this campaign.  Cheryl: Thank you so much Shenaaz for ending us on such a great note, the link to Al Qaws' website and socials will be also linked in our show notes. Now before I introduced our next guests, we're going to do a quick music break. This song is “Anger (DPT)” by the Khamsa Music Project. Hope you enjoy.   PT2: LAVENDER PHOENIX   Welcome back to the show, everyone. You are tuned in to APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley and online at kpfa.org.. You were just listening to “Anger (H.T.P.)” by the Khamsa Music Project. We've reached the final half of our show where we're joined by Cynthia, Kaiyah, and A– three incredible organizers and members of Lavender Phoenix. Lavender Phoenix along with APEX Express are two of the eleven AAPI social justice groups within the AACRE network working to advance social change. It is such a great pleasure and honor to have the three of you here with us on the show. Do you mind introducing yourself for our listeners here tonight? Who are you and who are your people?  Cynthia: Of course, thanks Cheryl for having us. I'll get us started. My name is Cynthia. I use they/them pronouns. I am the lead organizer at Lavender Phoenix. I'll pass it to Kaiyah.  Kaiyah: Hello. Hello. I'm Kaiyah. I use they and he pronouns. I've been a Community Safety Committee member for a couple years and a volunteer for much longer. I'll pass it to A. A: Hi hi, my name is A. I use she/her pronouns, and I've been a Community Safety Committee member since 2021 and also a volunteer slash person who hung around before then. Cheryl: Thanks for indulging me in that quick Round Robin. Can you tell our listeners who is Lavender Phoenix, and what is the role that LavNix plays within the movement for Palestinian liberation?  Cynthia: Yeah, of course. Here at Lavender Phoenix, we organize with trans and queer Asians and Pacific Islanders here in the Bay Area. We build power through our organizing, inspire and train grassroots leaders, transform our values from scarcity to abundance, and we also build vibrant intersectional movements. We work with our youth, but we also have a community of elders and our history has been a lot of intergenerational work and oral histories. And as trans and queer Asians and Pacific Islanders, I think it's important for us to know how deep in our legacy our relationship with state violence is. We have lessons from the AIDS epidemic, and we also need to stand on the lessons that we experience from our homelands. From all of this, we know that organizing in solidarity right now with Palestinians is actually the best way to make that argument for true healing and safety. All the money that's going into this war, violence, and the prison industrial complex, those are resources that could actually go towards healing our earth, feeding our people, housing people. They actually call Palestine an open air prison, and we know that we have better ways to spend our money, better things to do with our time, than to incarcerate and murder people. We want to mourn for our dead, and we fight like hell for the living. And we know that right now, it is not just an actual war, but there's a war in ideology. Are we going to go for weapons and corporate greed, or are we going to fight for a new world? Kaiyah: Yeah, I was gonna kind of go off what Cynthia said about how our struggles are connected. The money that is going to weapons, going to fuel the military, to take people's lives in Palestine. That money could be used instead to uplift life all around the world and also here in the US where people are houseless. People don't have enough food. People don't have their basic needs met. Safety could be realized in a very practical way instead of using it to take people's lives. And for me, I was thinking about how to become more human is to be aware that we're all connected. And this isn't just like a pretty thing to say, cause literally we're seeing money being sent over there could be used differently. A lot of different cultures and different organizations I've been a part of really hold this value that we're all connected. You hear people say things about Ubuntu and Kapwa– that I am because of who we are and I guess I've developed this sense of connectedness to other people across the world and people in Palestine– many of whom I've never met. I was thinking about why I felt so connected to it. I definitely had this sense that like. I'm seeing my siblings across the world suffering and in pain. What else can I do but try to stop that pain? I see my siblings across the world in Israel are harming others and causing pain. What can I do except to ask them and demand of them to do differently to stop hurting others. We wrote in our organization's plan that to support Palestine is to support our own liberation as well.  Palestinian struggle is our struggle and Palestinian futures are our futures. So that's kind of how I've been thinking about it. I don't know if you want to add anything, A?  A: That's so beautiful Kaiyah.  Yeah, and absolutely resonate with all of that. I guess the last thing I'll add is that I think we also have a really unique opportunity as Asian Americans, as people living in the heart of empire. This is happening overseas, but it's very much a result of our government. The United States is ultimately the most culpable here. So I think as people living here, as people who are voting our representatives into office, who give that legitimacy to our government, I think we both have a responsibility, but also a unique power that most people in the world don't have. That is such a unique opportunity that we have as Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders in the United States. Yeah, we're a marginalized group here, but we're still, relatively speaking, have so much strength in both our position and privilege and also in the ways that we connect to each other. Cheryl: Thank you all so much for speaking to that. From Cynthia and Kaiyah, we're hearing the interconnectedness of all of our struggles to Palestine, and also from A, the positionality and as a result responsibility we have as people within the global north who are complicit within this genocide.  Before we continue this incredible conversation. We're going to take a short music break. Go ahead, grab some water and maybe a snack. And we'll be right back after we listened to “Power Struggle” by Kultural Worker  And we're back. You were tuned into apex express on 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley and online at kpfa.org.. I'm here in conversation with Cynthia, Kaiyah, and A from Lavender Phoenix, a grassroots organization, building trans and queer API power in the bay area. You were just listening to “Power Struggle” by Kultural Worker. Now let's get back to the show.  The next question I have for you all revolves around how a lot of Asian Americans, by way of class privilege or otherwise, are decidedly apolitical even though our existences themselves, as you all have been saying, are extremely political and are extremely interconnected within the Palestinian struggle for liberation. How do we get our communities thinking and taking action on this?  A: I can take a first pass, because this is something I truly think about all the time, you know, how do we collect our people? I feel like it really goes back to what Kaiyah was just saying about our humanity is all connected, and to care about other people is to also care about ourselves. It's really hard to do, but this key piece of how do you get people to see that systems of oppression, even if they ostensibly benefit you and guarantee you real material privilege, they also detract from your humanity, and they also make your lives actively materially worse in a lot of ways, or spiritually worse in a lot of ways. I really struggle with how to implement that. It's a hard thing to convey. In movement spaces, over time I, finally, like, you know, got it. But I think that is really what the work is, right? Even if you are not at the bottom of a hierarchy, even if you're at the top of a hierarchy, a system of oppression dehumanizes the oppressor too. Kaiyah: I really feel that. I, I really feel like in this time, there's been a lot of spiritual growth as people are seeing just what is truly important in life. I've been hearing so many people talk about how what's important has become crystal clear as they see people across the world having their lives taken and being like, wow, we really have to do something about this. I'm going to kind of take it a different direction. In general, I think something I often see is that people who care about what's happening to other people who are being oppressed become really overwhelmed with grief and the feelings that come with witnessing something terrible and either become stuck in that and become stuck in inaction because they're overwhelmed, or detach from it because they're not sure what else they can do. Maybe they attempt to take some action, but then it feels futile. Is this actually making an impact? I guess what I'm trying to talk about right now is what can give people hope so that they feel like mobilizing is worth it and mobilizing can be effective. How do we get to that and that? Those things I named around inaction definitely apply to me. In the past I would attempt to organize. I would be like, is this really working? How do I even know it's working? God. Or just feeling like I can't engage with this. I'm I'm going to cry my eyeballs out if I think about this for more than five seconds. So I want to share about two main things that have helped move me from hopelessness and overwhelm into action and to stay there. So the first one is a practice of welcoming and making space for grief in my life, grief and rage. Grief and rage is often trying to remind me of what I yearn for, what I'm missing, what I care for, and what I deeply love. People say grief is love with no place to go, right? So I try to spend time with this grief to give it a place to go and do things to help it flow through me. Not to distract from it, not to get rid of it, but to let it move; to let it be. So I might like scream in my car. I might say to myself okay I'm really feeling this grief and rage today, what do I want to do? Okay, maybe i'm gonna scream my car. I'm going to listen to loud music. I'm going to go by a walk by the water. I've also been making a lot of altars and just giving thanks in nature to feel connected to what's in the world and feel like nature's helping me hold all these feelings. I might go to the gym to run out my feelings or talk to a friend. And all these things help me feel the grief and rage and let it move through me instead of sitting there and overwhelming me and demobilizing me. So instead that grief and rage can take the form of love and the care that it's trying to express. It's like I'm able to take all this pain I feel for my siblings in Gaza so that it fuels me to act instead of preventing me from acting through that overwhelm. The second thing I want to share that kind of moves me from hopelessness into action is to hone my understanding of strategy. I feel like nothing feeds hopelessness for me like pointless action, or action where the outcome and purpose is so unclear or if I'm not sure how its impact is going to play out. So for my actions to feel purposeful, I need to know, one, what is the outcome of my action? And two, how does that outcome fit into a larger plan or strategy? How does it feed into an overall goal of Palestinian liberation, per se? For example, I might tell myself, okay, I know that some protests are meant to be a part of many protests internationally that together are meant to draw more media attention or put more pressure on representatives. Other protests might happen even when the goal seems futile because to stay silent and let it happen without a fight would be even more damaging to our spirits. Maybe it serves some other purposes. Some other protests might be to directly intervene on organizations that are sending weapons and supplies and resourcing oppressive systems across the globe. Some protests are meant to directly slow that down or grind that industry to a halt. There's much more, but those are just some examples of things I think about when I go to a protest to make it really clear to myself what the function is of each action I'm a part of so I'm clear about how my little bit adds to a much larger goal, and it doesn't feel futile. And I know what the risks are, what the outcomes could be and what I'm fighting for in really certain terms, so I can have faith in my own impact. So I just want to share that long chunk as a hope that it might give other people some insight of how they might want to move out of hopelessness and let that grief and rage take another form. Cheryl: Thank you so much, Kaiyah. I was giving myself a hug just listening to you speak. It's important that we feel more rather than just feel better. We can hold all of these nuances without looking away. Cynthia, is there anything you wanted to add to that? Cynthia: I think today we're recording the Trans Day of Remembrance, and I know that this week, there is a holiday. I would encourage us to actually be celebrating the Indigenous Peoples Day. This theme of grief, rage, what we do with it, how we not let it immobilize us. I think is so sharp. This question about strategy too, because it has been 75 years of occupation, I'm actually really grateful for the leadership of Palestinians in this moment. This question of what do we do with this energy and how I've seen them move hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people all across this world to stand in solidarity. That is because of that strategy. And really, let's just get sharp. It's not just the politicians, but the weapons; manufacturing; the tech. It's all connected. How do we put our pressure where power is and contest for that? .  Cheryl: As I'm listening to all of you speak, I'm hearing so much about the importance of taking care of our spirits as important and integral part of our strategy. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the importance of care and collectiveness within the Lavender Phoenix's organization and structure, and how it aligns itself with Palestinian liberation?  A: I think something that I noticed that was really interesting when this latest slate of intensified violence started is people in LavNix started with, I'm going to this protest, who's coming? Then, people were pulling together Signal chats, and we were all coming together, but it was, like everyone had this urge to do something, and LavNix provided that home to do that and resources to do that. I know if I go to a protest I will have a group of people to meet up with there, and be safe with there. LavNix provides this base that allows us to take strategic, powerful action, and that's only possible because of all of the building that we have been doing before this point, like the work of our Community Safety Committee training folks on de-escalation practice, and now that folks are trained, they can go volunteer as protest marshals and do community safety work in that way. Or our healing justice committee providing peer counseling support for folks and helping folks be emotionally grounded so then in a moment of really intense violence, there's like a higher baseline of stability that allows us to do more. I think it's especially helpful in this moment. because it creates an organized resource group of people that can then go take action that is risky and difficult sometimes.  Kaiyah: Yeah, I have been really appreciating how I have an organization to organize with. I have a group of people to organize with in this moment that is Lavender Phoenix, because I see so many people asking right now, Oh, I want to do something. How do I help? And while I believe that everyone can get involved and everyone can mobilize themselves if they would like to, it also is really helpful that we've already had that sense of trust built. We know each other so we can ask each other to join up on higher risk actions because we know how to work together already , whereas we wouldn't be able to ask that to a completely new stranger. Something else I was thinking about in terms of caring for each other at protests was actually a conversation I was having with another Lavender Phoenix member the other day, so I'm stealing this from them. They were asking, “What could it look like for people to feel as safe as a protest as they feel at home?” Not that we were thinking that we're ever going to get there per se, but it was just something we want to think about because I want people who join protests and actions to take really informed risks and be trained in what to expect and how they can maybe react in those situations, especially in escalated situations if that happens.  On a personal level, the way I feel healing and care is showing up is again, it's similar to those grief routines. I'll often set aside time to just be really silent after a protest and be by myself, make sure I have a meal prepped at home. Maybe take some time to listen to sad music, really do my thing to move through those feelings because I can often feel really disoriented and kind of discombobulated from all the adrenaline after a protest, or maybe even more sad because it's got me thinking about everything happening to my Palestinian siblings, so that's how healing and care is showing up. Did you want to add anything, Cynthia?  Cynthia: I would say it has been special to see how our membership has kind of snowballed into this collective action Started with a few of us. And then there were maybe 10 of us, 20 of us, and then at one point there were 50 of us, and it was I think a testament to trans and queer APIs just feeling that connection, feeling that love, wanting to put that love into action and do that with our community, because we know we keep us safe and we have something to contribute to the broader movement around us. Like we know we can bring that and where we organize, we contribute a lot. And so it's something to be really grateful for.  Kaiyah: Yes, I feel so grateful as well. Cheryl: I'm feeling so grateful for this conversation and I'm so grateful that organizations like Lavender Phoenix exist and can cultivate these strong senses of communities. And really y'all do such a great job. Cynthia, do you mind letting us know what are ways that people can follow and stay in touch with Lavender Phoenix and what y'all are up to?  Cynthia: Yeah, of course. We are celebrating a new graduating class of Rise Up members. Our organization, we're doing things externally, but also building internally. You can find us on Instagram @lavphoenix. You Google us, you'll find our website as well. Keep in touch. We'd love to see you around. Kaiyah: Trans and queer Asian and Pacific Islander people, come find us. .  Cheryl: And that's the end of our show. Please check out our website, kpfa.org to learn more about Queer Crescent and Lavender Phoenix.   We'd We'd like to thank all of our listeners out there. Keep dreaming folks. A better world is possible.   Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong   Tonight's show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening!    The post APEX Express – 11.23.23 Queers for a FREE PALESTINE appeared first on KPFA.

#CouplesTherapy The One with the School Picture Mullets + Would You Rather, What'd You Google, Nebraska Facts & More!

In this week's episode, I celebrate finishing the 14th and final book of the SILENT ORDER series by looking back at the writing of the series over the last six years. This week's coupon is for the audiobook of GHOST IN THE STORM, as excellently narrated by Hollis McCarthy. You can get the audiobook of GHOST IN THE STORM for 75% off at my Payhip store with this coupon code: GHOSTSTORM The coupon code is valid through September 29th, 2023, so if you find yourself needing entertainment as we proceed deeper into the school year, perhaps it's time to get a new audiobook! TRANSCRIPT 00:00:00 Introduction and Coupon of the Week Hello, everyone. Welcome to Episode 167 of the Writer Show. My name is Jonathan Moeller. Today is September the 8th, 2023, and today we're taking a look back at writing the Silent Order series and a retrospective of the last six years. First, let's start off with Coupon of the Week. This week's coupon is for the audiobook of Ghost in the Storm as excellently narrated by Hollis McCarthy. You can get the audiobook of Ghosts in the Storm for 75% off at my Payhip store with this coupon code GHOSTSTORM. That's GHOSTSTORM and you can find the link and the coupon code in the show notes. This coupon code will be valid through September the 29th, 2023. So if you find yourself needing entertainment as you proceed deeper into the school year, perhaps it's time to get a new audiobook. 00:00:50 Writing Updates What have I been working on? Brand new-wise, as you can probably tell from the title of this episode, Silent Order: Pulse Hand is done and it is published and you can get it at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kobo, Google Play, Apple Books, Smashwords, and my Payhip. So the series is complete and the last book is now available and it's selling briskly. And thank you all for that. Now that that is done and my Summer of Finishing Things is finally finished with Dragon Skull and Silent Order being finished, I have started on the Ghost Armor series and the first book will be Ghost in the Serpent. And I am 10,000 words into it as this recording. And if all goes well, I'm hoping that will be out sometime in October and the audiobook of it before the end of the year. Starting a new series like this involves a fair bit of world building, and there's one good trick to know if you've picked a good name for a fantasy character. You Google it and you get 0 results. I do always Google character names before I commit to them. Sometimes you accidentally pick the name of someone who's been some sort of notorious criminal or controversial political figure, so it's best to avoid that, which I have to admit is less of a problem with fantasy names. However, when inventing fantasy names, you do occasionally stumble on a name that means another language, something like “very impolite term for women who sells carnal favors to the lowest echelons of society.” And you definitely don't want your character named after that, so it is always wise to Google. In audiobook news, the recording is underway for Dragonskull: Fury of the Barbarians. I expect we will start proofing chapters soon and I am looking forward to sharing that with all of you once it's done. We have one reader question this week from Wilson, who says: When are you coming back to the Third Soul series? Also Sevenfold Sword Online is calling you, lol. In answer to that… How to phrase this? I'm not saying no to doing more than Third Soul, but I don't have anything planned at the moment. I wrote The Third Soul, what would become The Third Soul now, 14 years ago, back in 2009? And so if I was to do it today, I would want to do many things differently. So if I did do something in The Third Soul, it'll probably be a slightly improved version of the setting with new characters, which, as I said, I'm not saying no to, but I don't have any current plans to do so. I am working on the Sevenfold Sword Online book. I'm on Chapter 2 of…actually, I don't know how many chapters it will be, but probably in the upper teens. But I am about 5,000 words into it. And I think that will probably be the either last book I published in 2023 or the first book I published in 2024, we'll see how the rest of this year goes. 00:03:40 Silent Order Retrospective Now, on to this week's main topic, a retrospective back on the Silent Order series, which seems suitable because as I said earlier, my Summer of Finishing Things has finished. The Silent Order of science fiction series is finally complete after 14 books, 769,000 words and six years. In fact, September 2023 marks the six year anniversary of when I published the first five books in the series. Like I did with Dragonskull, the other series I finished in summer 2023, I thought I would take a look back at the end of The Silent Order series in the Internet's favorite favored format, a numbered article and or podcast episode. Minor spoilers follow for The Silent Order series, but no major ones. 00:04:22 #1 The Protagonist When I started thinking about The Silent Order way back in 2016, I had just read the original James Bond books by Ian Fleming for the first time. I decided that I wanted to write about a spy, but in space. I also wanted to write a character who is essentially the opposite of James Bond, so the name was a play on that from James Bond to Jack March. The inspiration was that bond stays in place, but march is moving forward. Unfortunately though, I didn't realize it until the books were published and people started pointing it out to me, this meant that Jack March had the same initials as I do, which led to occasional accusations of him being an author avatar. This was definitely not what I had in mind. If anything, the closest match to my personality in any of my books would be The Sculptor from Frostborn: The Dwarven Prince, a curmudgeonly technician prone to occasional ranting. I did make March a contrast from James Bond, at least the literary version. Bond is gregarious, charming, drinks way too much, and has a different girl of the week. Well, every weekend, sometimes every day. March is grim, taciturn, very professional, and gets annoyed at the thought of a girl of the week. His fight against The Final Consciousness is personal in a way that various nemeses in the books rarely were. I believe Ian Fleming originally intended to make the Soviets the overarching big bad of the Bond books, but after tensions eased marginally between the West and the Soviets in the 60s, he switched to different villains and eventually settled on Specter and Blofeld. 00:05:56  #2 The Setting Specifically, Calaskar. March works for The Silent Order, part of the intelligence agency of the Interstellar Kingdom of Calaskar, which has seven core systems and several hundred minor colonies of varying sizes around the solar systems it claims. Calaskar is more culturally conservative than its neighbors, especially Rustaril and Raetia. But not terribly repressive. An American from the 1950s would find it rather relaxed, while an American from 2023 would probably find it stifling and conformist. It was a thought experiment on my part. How would a technologically advanced, yet relatively stable society look in the distant future? Of course, Calaskar isn't always stable. Where Rustaril and Raetia used to be part of the Kingdom but broke away and went in very different directions. It helped that March was born inside the empire of The Final Consciousness and so able to look at Calaskaran in society with a critical eye. He does think it tends toward the conformist and the parochial, but it doesn't have the brutality of the labor camps of The Final Consciousness, the social decay of Rustaril, or the vast gap between rich and poor of Raetia and the Falcon Republic. 00:07:08 #3 The Final Consciousness The Final Consciousness, also known half mockingly as The Machinists, is the overarching villain of the series. They're basically space communists combined with some of the crazier transhumanist ideas. The initial inspiration was the first few original James Bond books, where the Soviets and SMERSH were the chief adversaries. Further inspiration for the final consciousness came from college professors and crazy tech million. Years, sometimes college professors and academics will propose the most appalling things, like we need to reduce the Earth's population to 1 billion people, or everyone should be housed in giant cities and not allowed to leave, or children should be taken from their parents at birth to be raised in impartial institutions. The academics are always super unclear about how to do that and glide over little details like, how exactly the population will be reduced from 9 billion to one or how will they be encouraged to move into giant cities. These various tech billionaires also provided additional inspiration for The Final Consciousness. If you will forgive something of a generalization, it seems that if you become a billionaire in America, there's a non trivial chance you're going to turn into a transhumanist weirdo, like you'll want to put computer chips in people's brains, or you'll spend all your time worrying about the singularity and artificial intelligence. Or you'll spend 18 hours a day exercising and taking experimental treatments and claim to have the body of a teenager when you're 43, when to the unprejudiced eye, you actually look like a very fit 42 year old. The Final Consciousness is what you would get if all these people had unlimited resources to put their very bad ideas into practice. What they ended up with was a tyrannical hive mind ruling over an essentially enslaved population. The hive mind, believing itself to be the final stage of human consciousness and evolution, was driven to expand and destroy all the obsolete societies around it. That did not match the self perceived perfection of The Final Consciousness. Since Machinists tried and failed to militarily conquer Calaskar they turned instead to infiltration and subversion, which touches off the plot of The Silent Order series. Of course, the hive mind was built on the technology of the Great Elder Ones, an extinct alien race, who turned out to be not so extinct after all. 00:09:16 #4 The Great Elder Ones In a lot of science fiction, you have sort of elements of Lovecraftian cosmic horror working their way in, and that's where The Great Elder Ones came from. I had the original idea of The Great Elder Ones way back in the late 2000s, long before I discovered self-publishing. I was thinking about a fantasy series in a world that had an early modern level of technology. The study would have a communist revolution which would create the inevitable dictatorship and secret police state that always seems to follow communist revolutions, but the twist would be that the secret police organization was actually a cult worshipping a dark power, and they plan to use the mass loss of life associated with revolution to fuel a summoning spell to bring their dark power back to the world. I abandoned that ideas as unworkable and unlikely to sell, but I returned in the relationship between The Great Elder Ones and The Final Consciousness. Of course, Silent Order is science fiction, not fantasy, so it was cast in science fiction terms. The Final Consciousness used the surviving technology of The Great Elder Ones to build their hive mind, but that made them vulnerable to manipulation and control from The Great Elder Ones. The Great Elder Ones have been locked outside this universe by their ancient enemies, but plan to use The Final Consciousness is pawns to allow them to return and destroy the universe like they originally intended. 00:10:32 #5. The First Five Books I originally started writing Silent Order: Iron Hand on New Year's Eve in 2016. My original plan was to actually write the first four books, and once they were done, release them once a week until they were all out. I ended up writing a fifth book because of a news article I read. Originally I planned to go straight from Silent Order: Axiom End to Silent Order: Fire Hand. However, I read an article in mid 2016 arguing that an iPad made for better productivity tool than a Linux desktop. I found this implausible. In the seven years since then, the iPad has become better as a productivity tool, and since you can get a keyboard case and cast it to a bigger screen, but it's still really expensive and it's a lot easier to hook up an ergonomic keyboard and a big ‘ol monitor to a Linux System than to an iPad. It's substantially cheaper too. So to make a point, I wrote, edited and published Silent Order: Eclipse Hand entirely on Ubuntu Linux. Back then I still wrote about technology and Linux on a regular basis, so it fit neatly into my workflow. I also designed the cover entirely on GIMP on Ubuntu. More on that soon. All five books were ready to go in September 2017, and then I published the first one at the end of September, and the rest in October of that year. The initial plan was to put them in Kindle Unlimited since science fiction was very popular in Kindle Unlimited at that point. However, this disappointed enough people that I abandoned the initial plan and switched to wide distribution, which means books were on in addition to Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kobo, Google Play, Apple Books, and Smashwords. This series had a good start and I thought that it would be an open-ended series with a new adventure of the week with every boo. More soon or why this didn't quite work out. However, moving the books out of KU proved a wise decision. For all of 2023, as of this recording, only 49.1% of Silent Order's total revenue came from Amazon, the rest came from the other retailers. If that was a parliamentary democracy, they could make a coalition against Amazon if they wanted. There's no way KU page reads could have made-up that difference, especially since the Kindle Unlimited payment rate per page is quite a bit lower than it was in 2017. 012:55 #6: History I set the Silent Order books a long, long way into the future. Like roughly 100,000 years from now. I did this for a couple of reasons. First, it's always a little painful when you read older science fiction, you come across a sentence like mankind had its first hyperspace flight in 1996, or the protagonists have a problem but need to conserve computer power because they only have so many data space/data tapes. The phenomenon of one's futuristic science fiction becoming dated is called zeerust, and something I wanted to avoid if possible in Silent Order. Second, having the series take place 100,000 years into the future left a lot of wiggle room in the setting's back story. It meant that things could be lost, forgotten, or distorted for most of the series. No one is entirely sure exactly where Earth was, because the information has been lost after 100,000 years of human expansion into space. Obviously that kind of thing can be useful for plotting. In the Silent Order back story, there were five United Terran Empires that ruled over mankind for thousands of years at a time, but they all collapsed for various reasons. It also meant there could be lost technology plots as all the Terran empires had technological expertise that was lost when they collapsed… genetic engineering and high level AI and so forth. Third, it let me disconnect Silent Order from a lot of contemporary disputes here in the early 21st century. One of the tricky parts of writing near future science fiction is that it's easy to have the books take a stance on the immediate crises of the day, which can annoy a lot of readers. Having the books set so far into the future means that from the perspective of characters, years the various concerns of the 2020s seen as academic and as dusty as, for example, the Investiture Controversy or the dispute between the Guelphs and the Ghibellines seems to us today. So to someone in Jack March's time, the 2020 election and all its upheaval, or the coronavirus pandemic would be as distant and academic as the Investiture Controversy is to us today. 00:14:55 #7 Technology One complaint about the books was that Jack March regularly used a gun, a chemically propelled kinetic firearm, or that he often used a handheld computer he called the phone. Like, why didn't he always use a laser pistol or a particle gun, or have some sort of hyper advanced neural implant that functioned as a phone? Isn't this science fiction, for heaven's sake? Of course, that's a bit like asking why in 2023 you're still using a knife to cut your bread when instead you can use a high end laser cutter. The answer, of course, is that the knife is cheap and reliable and fulfills this technological niche so perfectly that even though there are more advanced alternatives available, it would be costly and pointless to use them. I think chemically propelled firearms fulfill that niche as well. People forget this, but firearms have been around for over 800 years. King Edward the Third used cannons in the opening battles of the 100 Years War, which started in 1337 A.D., quite a long time ago. Obviously firearms have been refined and improved considerably since that time, but the basic principle remains the same: metal tube, metal projectile, chemical propellant. Even in Jack March's time, a chemically propelled firearm offers many advantages. It doesn't require electricity and can be built without computer parts, meaning the weapon is immune to an EMP effect. Additionally, it is much less fragile than a more advanced weapon. The AK47 could famously still fire even after being dragged through a stream or left in the dirt for a while. Granted, it may not be terribly accurate, but it could still fire. With 100,000 years' worth of small improvements in material science, You couldn't 3D print a working firearm in your basement. It wouldn't even be made of metal and therefore much harder to detect. When March uses a phone obviously it would be more advanced than anything available today, but the word phone is a convenient shorthand to refer to personal data, mobile computing and communication device, and I settled on that instead of using a more science fiction-esque word like data pad or personal terminal. I didn't want to call it a communicator because that brings Star Trek to mind. Besides, one the cardinal rules of writing is to never use a long word when a shorter one will suffice. 00:17:02 #8 The Covers If I remember right, I ended up redoing the covers for the Silent Order series five times in total. The first set used a combination of a stock photo spaceship and a stock photo planet along with the custom font I paid for. After a while I had stock photos of people holding weapons against space background, but that really didn't work, so I switched down for a new set of stock photos of spaceships and planets. I was bumping up against the limits of what I could do with stock photos and GIMP. The difficulty of stock photos is their limitations. What you see is what you get. Ask anyone who's done any design work of any kind, and you'll probably get stories of searches for stock photos that turned up many pictures that almost good enough, but not quite. Then the COVID hysteria came around and I used some of the free time that generated to take a Photoshop course. I managed to produce a fourth set of covers, ones that used human figures and looked quite a bit better than the previous set of covers. However, shortly after that I saw Penny Arcade cartoon that has solidified my opinion on science fiction cover. They needed planets and they needed spaceships, and they needed to be in proximity. I redid the covers one more time. Suddenly, on five years after the final look of the series, which featured a spaceship, a planet, and in close proximity planets and spaceships was indeed the way to go. The series has had its best sales with the final set of covers. 00:18:29 #9 False Ending Despite my best efforts, Silent Order never sold as well as my fantasy books, and after eight books I wanted to do something else. Originally, as I mentioned, I planned for the series to be open-ended and ongoing. However, in the years since I've learned that in fantasy and science fiction, especially indie fantasy and science fiction, that really doesn't work. Like if you're John Sanford or Jeffrey Deaver, Jonathan Kellerman, JD Robb, or CJ Box, you can write books where your protagonists essentially has an adventure of the week or year, given traditional publishing schedules, without an overarching plot to the series. However, that's a different genre than fantasy and science fiction. And in traditional publishing, it's basically a different business model. I think because of certain well-known authors in fantasy literature who haven't finished their series, readers in the indie fantasy and science fiction space expect completed series with an overarching plot that gets resolved and quite a few of them refused to read an unfinished series at all. So I decided to wrap things up with Book Nine, which was Silent Order: Ark Hand in 2018 and give the series an ending with Jack March settling down on Calaskar. I intended to stop there and did stop there for three years. But people kept asking when I was going to write more in the series and I did feel I left too much unfinished with the Pulse and the Great Elder Ones. So in 2021, I decided to pick it up again, thinking it would take one or two more books to wrap up the series with a further ending. It turned out to be 5 more books for 14 total. I thought it was going to be 15. But after I finished #13, I thought 14 and 15 would be better combined as a single book, which is how we got Pulse Hand. 00:20:00 #10. Thanks, Chat GPT It only took six years to write the series, which isn't all that long, but technology has changed quite a bit during that six years and insane AI was a feature of the books dating all the way back to Silent Order: Wraith Hand, which I wrote back in 2017. I first introduced the character of Thunderbolt, another insane AI when I wrote Silent Order: Royal Hand in 2021. Though she wouldn't appear in the books until Thunder Hand in 2023, between the writing of Royal Hand and Thunder Hand, ChatGPT, Mid Journey, Bing Chat, and all the other generative AI tools entered the mainstream. This was a tremendous boon to me. Not because I used them for the writing. My overall opinion of generative AI remains that it's bad. And if it's not meaning the strict legal definition of plagiarism, then it's at least sitting on the same couch as plagiarism, but because of all the tales of AI meltdowns that made it into the mainstream press, like when Microsoft rolled out Bing Chat AI and it famously would go on unhinged rants, threatening people, dissolve into incoherent logical loops, and insist that factually incorrect information was the truth and threatened anyone who doubted it, and otherwise have all kinds of glitches that range from hilarious to deeply disturbing. I read those articles with great amusement and delight and based Thunderbolt's personality off them. Of course, Thunderbolt has rail guns and their own automated fleet of space warships, so when she has breakdowns, it's a little more concerning. So nearly seven years after I had first had the idea, the Silent Order series has come to its conclusion, its proper conclusion this time. I do hope that you found the ending satisfying. 00:21:26 Conclusion I'd also like to thank Silent Order readers for the enthusiasm for the series in ‘22 and 2023. After I settled on the final cover design, it sold better than it ever has, but still doesn't sell nearly as well as my various fantasy books. That was one of the reasons I was going to stop after Book 9, but the sheer enthusiasm people had for the books and the nagging sense that it wasn't quite finished led me to write 5 more. So thank you all for reading and for coming along with Jack March on this long, long journey. And if you've never heard of Silent Order or if you're one of those people who only reads completed series, the first book is free on all the ebook platforms, so why not check it out? You get Silent Order: Iron Hand for free at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Google Play, Kobo, Apple Book, Scribd, and Smashwords. So that is it for this week. Thanks for listening to The Pulp Writer Show. I hope you found the show useful. If you enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review on your podcasting platform of choice. Stay safe and stay healthy and see you all next week.

Almost everyone has made investment mistakes at some point. In this episode, we'll talk about how to bounce back from mistakes and avoid making them again in the future.   Important Links:  Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1: ... Back here for another edition of Plan With The Tax Man, into the month of August here in 2023. And it's time to talk about overcoming investment setbacks, bouncing back really if we've had some issues in our financial lives. And that's what we're going to get into this episode and how to, hopefully, avoid some of these again in the future. Things happen, we all make missteps and mistakes, but there's no reason we can't try to correct those and course correct and keep ourselves on the right path to get to and through retirement. So we're going to have that chat with Tony this week here on the podcast. What is going on, my friend? How are you? Tony: I am good. Just still enjoying the summer. It's going to be over before we know it here. Speaker 1: Well, we're into August, so yes. Tony: It'll be state fair time. Speaker 1: There you go. Now I got a little weakness for the funnel cakes there, the elephant ears. Tony: For the [inaudible 00:00:48]. Speaker 1: Yes, whatever you want to call them. Some places they call them elephant ears, someplace they call them funnel cakes. It's the same thing, but at least I think it is anyway. Now I'll tell you something though, I've never had one of these before and I didn't even realize it was a thing until I tried it. Have you ever had what they call the walking taco? I believe that's what they call it, where it's basically all the taco stuff inside a like Doritos bag or a Frito bag. Tony: A chip bag. Speaker 1: Yes, a chip bag. Tony: I have had it. I haven't had it at the fair, but I have had them. That's what they are. Speaker 1: I never saw one before until I saw one at the fair and I was like, "Ooh, this is calling my name. This is incredibly not good for me, but I don't care. I'm going to eat it ..." And it was fantastic. Tony: It is good, yes. Our fair is so big. It's a big highlight around here. And every year they put out what's new at the fair for the food list because everybody goes for the junk food. Speaker 1: Sure. Tony: And it's just incredible what we have. Just weird stuff, like everything's on a stick here. Speaker 1: All right. Tony: And it's fried and it's just crazy, the foods. But I don't know if you guys have a big state fair or not?- Speaker 1: Yes. Tony: ... but ours is big and- Speaker 1: Interesting stuff. Tony: ... I'm actually looking online here. I don't even know what some of this stuff is. Speaker 1: Like snicker bar on a stick? Tony: Yes, deep-fried sweet corn nugget. Sweet corn fried?- Speaker 1: The sweet corn and you deep-fry it. We'll- Tony: Deep-fry it. Speaker 1: Humans will deep-fry anything, I think Tony: I know it. We're Americans. Yes, we do a lot. Speaker 1: That's for sure. But anyway, well, hopefully you guys will enjoy and you don't get too crazy, make yourself sick to your stomach, but- Tony: We'll be bouncing back from fair. Speaker 1: You'll be bouncing back. There you go. Nice segue. I like it. I like that. Tony: That'd be a mistake. Speaker 1: That's right. Well, let's get into some of these financial bounce backs we might need to do. First thing you need to do, if you do have a financial misstep, Tony, is just obviously determine the cause, right? Tony: Yes. Speaker 1: So what's some bullet points here to think about how you got there in the first place? Tony: Well, most people are going to look at this and say, "Well, I mistimed some stock or some investment." Speaker 1: True. Tony: And most of the time what we see is the mistakes themselves are really not starting soon enough. And that means saving, and that's the biggest one of all. Yes, you can miss time and do that, but you shouldn't be trying to time anyway. But really what you got to do is, whatever the mistake is, whether it's that or just not starting soon enough or something else, is- Speaker 1: Bad luck, whatever. Tony: ... Just figure out, say what caused it, what kind of spot I was in my life when it happened, what kind of information did I have available to me? Maybe you're one of those people that listened to everybody but the right people about everything. Speaker 1: I always refer to that as the cousin Eddie, if anybody who's ever- Tony: Cousin Eddie. Speaker 1: ... Watched any of the vacation movies, right? Tony: Yes. Speaker 1: The cousin Eddie moments because he's always doing something goofy or wrong or whatever. He tells you advise and it's usually not good. Tony: It's usually not good. No. And we get that out on the tax side. Clients will call and say, "Well, I heard from such and such." And my first question is, "What does such and such do for a living?" And they'll say, "Well, he's a barber." And I say, "Well, I don't know that's really his realm to be giving that kind of advice." Speaker 1: To give you tax advice, right? Tony: Yes. So you get a lot of that and it's proliferated with the internet. You got to watch you listen to. Speaker 1: Oh, of course, yes. And that's usually the number one source of bad advice any more is the internet. Because it's- Tony: It is. Speaker 1: ... Just so much on there. Tony: There is so much on there. It is. And so you got to watch what you're getting. That could be a whole conversation on its own. You Google a topic and you think it's right, and it may or may not be. There are probably elements that are correct. Speaker 1: Exactly. Tony: But it might not be all of that. Speaker 1: There's actually a whole industry, Tony sorry, wrapped around internet ads that are designed to look like news articles or news stories so that you feel like it has a bit more realism to it. "Oh, this is news related or newsworthy." But it really is just an ad. It's just a solicitation or a sales piece. So definitely easy. So determining the cause, I think, great place. You've got to figure that out. Did you get the right information? Did you get enough information? Was it just bad timing? It's okay, you've made the mistake. You mentioned savings, so now we need to make up that difference we've lost. So what are some things to do as far as increasing our savings rates? Tony: Well, once you've identified the mistake, and if you have lost some money, the easy thing is to increase the savings. That's really not really all that complex on how to do that, but it's easy to be able to increase it. Especially as you progress in life, some of your expenses start to decrease, and so you're going to have more disposable income that you can then take and increase the savings rate. Speaker 1: The government gives us some catch up contribution provisions in various different things. So there's some of that, right? Tony: Yes, you can do that. You pay off a car, continue making the payment, but make it to yourself and put it in your retirement account or your savings account. Speaker 1: As my dad used to call us, maybe get the little ankle biters off of your payroll. He used to call us ankle biters. Tony: When you were kids. Yes, you do. You get the kids out of the house and then all of a sudden you've got an instant raise. And so there's a lot of ways to increase the savings rate. I've seen people go get a second job and say they just want to save more [inaudible 00:06:09]. Speaker 1: Depending on the kind of damage that you've had to the setback. And I think most of the time, if we've just made a mistake, Tony, it's usually not super detrimental, but you do want to recalibrate your goals or recalibrate your plan because maybe you did make a bad investment. Well, let's do something recent, maybe you got on the crypto train or something, and you were a crypto millionaire one week and you were crypto broke the next, whatever it might be. But that's when you say, "So now I've identified the problem. I know what I did wrong. Now we're working towards making that shortfall back up by increasing our savings contributions to paying our future self, AKA retirement fund. So now let's recalibrate that plan or recalibrate the goals." Right? Tony: Yes. And it's easy to do because, again, it doesn't take a lot, especially if you're talking through it with somebody who, well, and say, in my case, we visit with this clients all the time. It could be as easy as maybe delaying retirement for a year, could mean, hey, we just change our lifestyle a little bit and reduce our expenses. It's not going to be something drastic, and maybe you're in a giant home that you need to downsize and you could save some money there. Speaker 1: Sure. Tony: Maybe it's just watching things a little bit more until you feel more comfortable. I think- Speaker 1: You don't get the muscle car you've been wanting, or you don't get the- Tony: No. Speaker 1: Maybe you get the muscle car, but you just don't do all the remodel on it just yet. You don't do all the- Tony: Repairs. Speaker 1: ... Repairs just yet, or... Little ways you can do stuff, right? Tony: Yes. I have a retiree client and she calls me, and really a lot of our conversations are based around, for lack of a better word, me talking her off the ledge because she likes to put money in her home, and she really likes to keep it spruced up and remodeled. And I'm there really more for the sounding board of, well... She's got plenty of money and she could do it, but it's like, "Well, do you really need it right now? Maybe you take it a little slower so it doesn't affect the other fun stuff you like to do." And many times listen to that and follow along on those lines. But I think if she was out on her own, she would probably be dipping into and probably taking much more than she needs. Speaker 1: A little more often. Tony: More often. And then I think she would be not happy with that because she does like to balance it and do other things in life. And- Speaker 1: That's a great point. Tony: Again, balance is the key because- Speaker 1: Well, to me, I don't know, Tony, with all the technology we have at our fingertips now, I think a big portion of what you guys do as financial professionals is what they call behavioral management, right? Tony: It is. Speaker 1: Because- Tony: And much more so than investment management, yes. Speaker 1: It can be, right? Because just about everybody's got the same software, just about everybody's got the same access to the various different things out there, depending on what kind of license that you have as a financial professional, but really it's relationship building and that behavioral management. To your point to that story you just told this client's comfortable calling you up and saying, "All right, I'm thinking about doing something silly. What do you think?" And then you talk through it and you go, "Based on where we're at, go ahead and go for it." Or "If you do, maybe we're going to make a change to that vacation that was planned for next year." Or something like that. Tony: Yes. And then that's all it comes down to is just some simple discussion. Speaker 1: And then rework the plan. Tony: And you got to rework the plan a little bit. It's funny because from our standpoint, we take a lot of notes so we can remind the clients like, "Well, last time we talked you said this, but you can change your mind. But that is what you said last time." It's a fun conversation. You can have fun with it. But it is interesting because I think clients, you could survive it, of course, yourself, but you may make bigger mistakes and take longer to recover- Speaker 1: Sure. Tony: ... Without some advice of some kind. Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's when getting a real plan in place certainly comes into play. So maybe if you're in a situation, Tony, where you've made a financial mistake and you haven't started working with a professional yet, now is the time to really do it. And often, it's like going to the dentist, I hate to equate what you do with going to the dentist, but it's the same kind of feeling sometimes where we're like, I just know he's going to say or she's going to tell me something bad and it's going to cost me pain. In this case, the dentist analogy, and then maybe you wind up going and it's not nearly as bad as you thought. And I think that's what happens with advisors a lot. People are like, "Oh no, I'm going to go in there and I'm going to have to tell them what I did, or I have to show them my stuff and it's going to be painful and they're going to tell me I can never retire." All those kinds of things. Tony: Oh, I know it. Speaker 1: And often it's not nearly as bad as we think that it is. I think as humans, we just do that naturally. Tony: We do. I've actually got a client, as you were saying, that in fact we're emailing back and forth this week, he's an accounting client, not a financial planning client. He's got an advisor. And I don't think the advisor's giving him bad advice, but what the client wants to do, and get this, he's about, I don't know 63, 64, he wants to pull a million dollars out of his retirement account because him and his wife found a little place and a little acreage, and they want to build a house on it. It's just south of where we're at. And he's a big outdoors guy. And so he's trying to rationalize this with me and his advisor as his tax account. And I'm saying, "Well, boy, you're going to owe a lot of tax on that. Maybe you want to split it up." The advisor's telling him, "Well, maybe you want to just go borrow because you're going to pull all this out, and then when you start to need this for income, it's tied up in your house." Which she's got a point too. Speaker 1: Well, she does have a point there, but borrowing right now, it is not a borrower's market. Tony: That's what the client's saying is, it's not a borrower's market. So we're trying to put some numbers together and say, well, if you borrowed, here's how much it's going to cost you, if you spread the tax out. And try to get the best scenario for him, and then he'll have to make that decision. But- Speaker 1: Exactly. Tony: And he's got me on the tax side, his advisor on the advisory side, both trying to help him make the right decision and whatnot. Speaker 1: And that's interesting. Tony: But that goes back to really maybe if he didn't have us, he would probably... Because what he wanted to do is just pull out all the money in one year and pay the taxes. And he thought that would be a better deal than spreading it out. And I said, "No. Here, here's the exact numbers because I've got them right off your tax check." Speaker 1: Going to kick you up a tax bracket and all sorts of stuff. Tony: It would've cost him like $75,000. And I said, at least spread it out to save 75,000. But it's just one of those things though, where even though he has a plan in place, he's changing his plan because he wants something in his life and hey, there's nothing wrong with it. But- Speaker 1: Exactly. They're modifying the plan, that's part of the process because they think life's going to happen, we're going to do different things. And me personally, I think kudos to you and him as well for doing that. But oftentimes many advisors, they struggle with that whole split thing where you're the tax person, the CPA, but you're also not doing the financial side because it is hard when you have two different people giving you, maybe, conflicting advice. So as the person in the middle, sometimes you wind up being in a tough spot, but at the same time, at least he does have those sounding boards. So I think- Tony: He's got that. And for me, if we have an accounting or tax relationship, if they've got an advisor- Speaker 1: Sure. Tony: ... Of course that they like, I like to think we're on the same team. Unless the person was completely crazed and- Speaker 1: Bad advice. Tony: ... Offering horrible advice, but try to be on the same team because- Speaker 1: Sure. Tony: ... I don't want to interfere with that relationship and you just don't know. But some accountants don't like it, some advisors don't like it. Speaker 1: I was going to say, it just depends on the relationship and again, kudos to everybody from making that work. But that's a great illustration though of why even if you make a mistake or have a looming mistake, having a financial team to help you out can go a long way towards hopefully staving off a financial mistake or bouncing back from one. So that was a topic this week. Hopefully that helps out a little bit. And if you have made a mistake and you're worried about going and seeing a finance professional, don't. The longer you procrastinate, just like that tooth, that dentist analogy I was going with, it's only going to hurt worse. It's only going to get worse if you ignore it. And when you finally do go to the dentist and then you maybe have to have a root canal and then it's all more expensive and more painful. So go find out what you need. Go get a plan together for where you're at in life, whether you've made any mistakes or not. And that way, even if the news is not great, at least you know what you now need to start doing in order to get yourself into that better spot. Sooner is always better than later. So get yourself onto the calendar. Reach out to Tony and his team at yourplanningpros.com. That's your planningpros.com. He is a CPA, a CFP, an EA of 27 plus years experience. So get onto the calendar today at yourplanningpros.com Tony, thanks for hanging out, buddy. Tony: We'll see you next time. Speaker 1: See you later on this month, in August, we'll be getting closer to football season for all you football bands. So we will catch you next time here on Plan With The Tax Man with Tony Mauro from Tax Doctor Inc. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, Google, and Spotify.   Disclaimer: Securities offered through Avantax Investment ServicesSM. Member FINRA, S.I.P.C. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency.

Riches in Niches and How to Attract High-Paying Clients I'm excited for you to meet our special encore guest expert today — Henry DeVries. If you're meeting Henry for the first time — he's the CEO of Indie Books International. He's the former president of an award-winning “Ad Age 500” marketing agency — and — Henry is also a weekly columnist for Forbes.com. Henry was my guest for Episode 15 of the podcast, where he shared his expertise around strategies and tactics for writing a book — and then — how to use the book as your primary marketing strategy — or, as Henry likes to say — “Marketing with a Book.” We'll be sure to add a link to Episode 15 to today's show notes.  Okay — I invited Henry to join me for this encore interview so we could focus our time and attention on Chapter 5 of Henry's latest book entitled, “Marketing with a Book for Agency Owners.” He titled Chapter 5 — “Riches in Niches.” If you've been listening to this podcast for a while now — or if you've read our books — or attended any of our open-mic Q&As or live workshops — you know that here at Predictive ROI…we're big fans of building a riches in niches strategy. I'm going to quickly quote Henry from Chapter 5… Henry writes, “To attract high-paying clients, agency owners must be clear on their ideal prospects. But a target market with a problem is not enough. Agency owners also must find target clients that can afford to pay what you want to charge.”  Okay — it's here at the intersection of these two points that Henry and I focused our riches in niches discussion. How to find right-fit prospects who are willing to pay what you want to charge — and I would argue that when you do this work correctly and your content strategy is on point and generous — your right-fit prospects will be EAGER to pay your premium price. To help us get there — I asked Henry to walk us through what he calls the “10 filter questions” that you and your team can use as you work through the process of niching down.  In my opinion — Henry's 10 filter questions are critically important to the process of seeking riches in niches because if we don't get it right at the beginning — HOLY BANANAS — it's most likely not going to feel right 2-3 years into your “niche” strategy.  I promise you — if you take and apply Henry's advice and build a strategy around riches in niches — and then — have the courage to build an authority position deep in the niche (instead of being sort of committed), you consistently create helpful cornerstone and cobblestone content that shares your smarts with your audience. If you do this work — you'll not only be seen as the AUTHORITY in the niche, but your sales pipeline will go from being dry to being filled with a steady stream of right-fit clients from within the niche who are eager to work with you — AND — willing to pay your premium price to do it.  That's the recipe for riches in niches.   What you'll learn from this episode about riches in niches: Why your riches in niches strategy needs to include stories that matter and where you ought to share them Why it's so important to share the right social proof with your prospective clients How to find prospects in niches who are willing to pay what you want to charge How to identify and then properly step into the right pond within the right niche How to work through the 10 filtering questions to do the right work up front to help ensure you tap into the riches in niches     Speaker 1: (00:03) Welcome to the Sell With Authority podcast. I'm Stephen Woessner, c e o of predictive roi. And my team and I, we created this podcast specifically for you. So, if you're an agency, agency owner, a business coach, or a strategic consultant, and you're looking to grow a thriving, profitable business that can weather the constant change that seems to be our world's reality, then you're in the right place. You want proven strategies for attracting a steady stream of well-prepared right fit prospects into your sales pipeline. Yep. We're gonna cover that. You wanna learn how to step away from the sea of competitors, so you actually stand out and own the ground you're standing on. Yep. We're gonna cover that too. You wanna futureproof your business so you can navigate the next challenges that come your way. Well, absolutely. We'll help you there as well. I promise you. Speaker 1: (01:02) Each episode of this podcast will contain valuable insights and tangible examples of best practices, never theory from thought leaders, experts, owners who have done exactly what you're working hard to do. So I want you to think practical and tactical. Never any fluff. Each of our guests have built a position of authority and then monetized that position by claiming their ground, by growing their audience, by nurturing leads, and yes, by converting sales. But all the while they did it by being helpful. So every time someone from their audience turned around there, they were with a helpful answer to an important question, so their prospects never felt like they were a prospect. I also promise you every strategy we discuss, every tool we recommend will be shared in full transparency in each episode. So you can plant your flag of authority, claim your ground, and fill your sales pipeline with a steady stream of right fit clients. Speaker 1: (02:09) So I am super excited for you to meet our very special encore guest expert today, Henry DeVries. If you're meeting Henry for the first time, he's the c e o of Indie Books International. He's the former president of an award-winning ad age 500 marketing agency, and Henry is a weekly columnist for forbes.com. Henry was also my guest for episode 15 of the podcast where Henry shared his expertise around strategies and tactics for writing a book, and then how to use the book as your primary marketing strategy, or as Henry likes to say, marketing with a book. So, we'll be sure to add a link to episode 15 to today's show notes to make it super easy to find. It's a great episode. Okay, so I invited Henry to join me for this encore so we could focus our time and attention on chapter five of Henry's latest book, which is entitled Marketing with a Book for Agency Owners. Speaker 1: (03:09) He titled Chapter Five, riches in the Niches. And if you've been listening to this podcast for a while now, or if you've read our books or attended any of our open mic q and as or live workshops, you know that here at Predictive roi, we are big fans of itching. So I'm gonna quickly quote Henry here, uh, from chapter five of the book, Henry writes, to attract high paying clients, agency owners must be clear on their ideal prospects, and then he goes on to write, but a target market where the problem is not enough agency owners also must find target clients that can afford to pay what you wanna charge. Okay? So it's at the intersection of these two points that Henry and I will focus our discussion today, how to find right fit prospects who are willing to pay what you want to charge. Speaker 1: (04:05) And I would argue that when you do this work correctly and your content strategy is on point and generous, your right fit prospects will be eager to pay your premium price. To help us get there, I'm going to ask Henry to walk us through what he calls the 10 filter questions that you and your team can use as you work through the process of nicheing down. Because in my opinion, Henry's 10 filter questions are critically important to the process of seeking riches in the niches. Because if we don't get it right at the beginning, well, holy bananas is most likely not gonna feel right two to three years down the road. I promise you, if you take an apply Henry's advice and seek the riches in the niches, and then have the courage to actually build an authority position deep in the niche and not be kind of committed to the niche, so you're consistently creating helpful cornerstone and cobblestone content that shares your smarts with your prospective clients, clients in the niche, you'll not only be seen as the authority in the niche, but you will fill your sales pipeline with a steady stream of right fit clients who are eager to work with you and who are willing to pay your premium price to do it. Speaker 1: (05:29) So without further ado, my friend, welcome back to the Sell With Authority Podcast. Henry, Speaker 2: (05:36) Thank you for inviting me to talk about riches niches. You're very welcome. April, 2022, the place, Oceanside, California. I'm celebrating the eighth anniversary of Indie books. Okay? We've published over 150 authors. Life is great. I'm not happy. Okay? I'm at a crossroads. Sounds like there's a story there. You're gonna start a hospital. There's a story there. I'm at Crossroads and I go, I teach this riches and niches and I've helped so many people, and I don't feel that we've really found ours, huh? Because I had focused on consultants and coaches, okay? And there was just something missing. And the, the ponds and the groups that I, the watering holes and Pamela Slim of the Whitest Nets language, you know, the, they just weren't feeling totally right for me. Okay? So I did a, I did an exercise. I, I went on a retreat, just me in a car to a motel to think of this through, okay? Speaker 2: (06:45) Made a list of all our authors and divided them into groups, okay? And there was this one group that I liked to work with the most agency owners, because I was an agency owner. And matter of fact, indie Books International is an agency. It's a marketing agency in disguise, as a publishing company, okay? And we, we help people get speaking, but part of it was this training aspect where we train you to give speeches, get on podcasts, do these things to amplify your work. That's my word for the years, Steven. Amplify. We need to amplify our work. That's a good word. Talk about that. So I went and, and the agency owners were, and I said, well, where could I go meet agency owners? So I researched, and there were 10 places where they gather that I found, and one was called the Baba, b a b summit, build a Better Agency Summit. Speaker 2: (07:44) Uhhuh. . And it was over $2,000 to attend a little problem. I didn't have an extra $2,000, but I do cover marketing for forbes.com. I've been a paid columnist for five years. So I contacted the Baba Summit people into my surprise, they said, yes, you can have a media credential come cover us, um, at the Western in Chicago. Mm-hmm. . So meanwhile, I start to call some of these agency owners that I'd helped do their books. And I said, you know, whatever happened as a result of the book. And Tom Young, uh, one of my authors said, oh, you helped us get to the million dollar level. And then we, we leveraged that book, and now we're at 2 million a year. Um, I talked to another person and she said, oh, I didn't have any Fortune 500 companies when we started. I've tripled my revenues, and now I'm working for the one of the top five banks in America, one of the top five financial houses in America, a a billion dollar Japanese technology company. Speaker 2: (08:51) As a result of this, I'm going like, well, those are some, I said, would you, would you put that in writing? Could I put that in writing? Well, of course. Would you tell other people? You know, could I put you on video? Oh, yeah. Send anybody my way. I'm going like, okay, check. We, we've got something going here. Right? Also, they were the, um, most willing to pay. Some of them told me, uh, you know, you, you're not charging enough. This is what the agents, this is what the agency owners were sharing. They were telling me that I wasn't charging them enough, right. Uh, for what they were getting from me. Okay? So I go to the, the Baba Summit. I did not know you were involved, Steven, I knew you from being in a, a couple of appearances on Onward Nation. Um, I, I think I had written about a couple of your clients and Forbes, so that was our relationship. Speaker 2: (09:39) But I see you were one of the sponsors there and involved, and that was great. Within an hour of being there. Everything I've been teaching for the last 15 years in writing about, but unwilling to do as a service, you were preaching at, at Baba, the p baba speakers were preaching, and they had people there to do it. You know, if you wanted podcasts, you could go to predictive roi. If you wanted a, um, a proprietary research study, you could go to audience audit. So it was like, these are my people. Mm-hmm. , uh, this is so great. And I had decided then, okay, I'm going all in. Now. Let me tell you, fear never sleeps. To go all in on a target niche is a scary proposition. Um, you're worried that by declaring I work for these people, your referral sources are gonna dry up Uhhuh, . Speaker 2: (10:35) I can assure you, they do not. Right? The the other thing that happens is you're, you're afraid that somebody will read your website and go, oh, well, that's not for me. I can assure you it's not. I have people call me up and say, look, I, I know I'm not an agency owner, but, uh, I run this consulting company and could I please convince you to work with me? Right. You know, go on . I'll say, you know, and, and, uh, some have and have done wonderful projects. Meanwhile, , so I, I commit to this. This is May and I, I think I've gotta write a book. I've gotta write a book about this, but I am very busy. When am I gonna have time to write another book? So, um, and we all have different faiths, and I respect that. And, um, in, in California, I have to say the universe or the universe will manifest when I'm, when I'm out in, uh, the Midwest with you, I can say God helps those who help themselves. Speaker 2: (11:35) So, but I, I prayed on it and I prayed for time to get this book done. Be careful what you pray for . I was give, in August, I was giving five workshops for CEOs on how to persuade with a story. Mm-hmm. , uh, that's what I'm paid to speak on. I've written books on that. And on, uh, day five, I contract covid. So I'm in Memphis, Tennessee, um, thousands of miles from home. Nobody there. I have to check into this, uh, cheap motel to quarantine for a week. Yep. And, uh, my healthcare got right on it got me into a doctor who prescribed the drug, PAX Lobin for me. Mm-hmm. . So I'm on a, a five day protocol of Pax Lobin. Well, it knocked it down right away. And I thought, well, I don't wanna watch TV and I'll just start writing the book. Five days later, the book was written, you know, thank you. Speaker 2: (12:38) I'm grateful for that time, . I wish it could have been like a little more enjoyable, but I got the book done and started rolling. I know I needed refinements. So, uh, signed up with predictive roi. We did the, the 90 day program, really refined it. Um, Eric, on your team, uh, I, I love Eric dearly because he challenged me on everything. Um, he gave me pushback on everything. It wasn't like, oh, great, this, like, no, this and that. What happens if this happens? And like, oh man, that would've been a huge mistake if I'd gone that way. So, very grateful to predictive roi. And then I saw, um, workshops by you and Drew McClellan of AMI in, in Florida. Um, didn't have the money for that. Went to the board and said, we need to personally borrow money, uh, so I can go to Disney World for a conference in December and January. Speaker 2: (13:34) Um, and then when I explained it, all my wife said, a hunch. Henry had a hunch. And we bet on the hunch. And the hunch worked. So, um, I've been picking up agency clients. You told me I needed to double my prices and hire better people. I went out and did that. Yep. Um, and then when people would call me, I would give that higher price, and they didn't blink. So it all came back to what we're gonna talk about today, these filter questions. Yep. Um, agency owners pass the filter questions test for me, and I hope the filter questions help the listeners today. Speaker 1: (14:15) Awesome. Well, so let's, I, I want to tease out just one piece outta outta what you just said about the, the workshop and not, and not, and not like promoting the workshop or advertising the workshop, but your recognition about how the Baba Summit and how the workshop and how you participate in our community, how you participate in the Agency Management Institute community and, and so forth. And how you've been very strategic in, uh, aligning partnerships and friendships and all of that, because those are efforts to get deeper into the niche. And, and I'm not saying that those are not great relationships and personal relationships and turning into friendships and that kind of stuff. I, I'm, I'm not saying that those are like surfacey, they're, and they're not genuine because I know that they absolutely are. What I am saying is that they are, excuse me, that they're also indicative of when you go deep into the niche, it's about really understanding the people in the niche, really understanding the pond, really understand who is in the pond, swimming around and all of that, and developing those relationships. That's part of getting deep into the niche. Would, would you agree? Speaker 2: (15:26) Oh, absolutely. And I have to do a shout out to Susan Byer, a member of the Community of Audience Audit. And I heard you and Susan speak at the Baba Summit, and I shook her hand and, uh, gave her my card and said, I'd like to interview her for forbes.com. And, uh, she's the world's busiest woman who's going at mock five with her hair on fire. So that wasn't happening, but I, I was on, uh, a call with you and there were other people, you, you had me, I think, on a q and a talk about the book mm-hmm. , and Yep. Susan was there, and she calls me up afterwards and said, we have to talk, says this. I was where you were at a few years ago. I know who you are. Uh, and I know where you're at, and I just get deep into this. Speaker 2: (16:13) Do this, this is what you need to do. Yep. And I said, thank you. I appreciate that. Uh, what is the best piece of advice you have for me right now? Okay. She said, go to the workshops in December and January, you know, beg, borrow Steele, do whatever you have to. She says, I went from having eight clients to 40 when I went into this niche, uh, really strong. And so go there. And she says, you're gonna learn things. Mm-hmm. from the content that Drew and Steven teach, you're gonna learn more about your target audience, because you're gonna listen to them. You're gonna hear them. You're gonna have a drink with them, uh, you know, breakfast with them, and you're gonna be this listening machine at one of the agencies where I cut my teeth. Um, I was the head of research too. I was the head of creative services and research. That's a, that's a schizophrenic kind of person. Speaker 1: (17:09) I'm like, that's a bit of a juxtaposition, but o okay. Speaker 2: (17:11) Yeah. Right. Sounds and research. So I, I know about depth interviews and research and, and, uh, you know, listening. And that was so true, because you're amongst them and you can relate to them, of course. And when they tell a story, you can go, oh, I understand that. Yeah. You know, um, I've been there, done that. Um, so that's important to, you've gotta go where your target rich audience is. Um, not so much that, oh, I'm gonna find clients. I did, I will, but I wanna understand their worries, frustrations, doubts. Mm-hmm. . Um, I need, you know, the fear, uncertainty and doubt, the FUD factor. You need to know their FUD factor. And that's the number one thing they want to know. Do you understand my pain? Speaker 1: (18:07) Yeah. The, not only do you speak my language, do you speak my dialect? And when, when, when we talk through the niche deep dive, you know, like in our q and a's and in the, the WHO framework and so forth, that, that part of that starts with the first two ingredients in that are what are the problems, hence the FUD factor that you just mentioned. Then what are the stories? How can you speak to those problems within a story? Because we're just d n a wired to receive stories, right? How can we talk about the FUD factor in the form of a story? And then to your earlier point, how can we step into the right ponds to tell the stories, right? Because then they feel appropriate and, and, and, and they land correctly. It feels weird to step into a non-agency owner pond, if you will, and start talking about agency owner stories. Speaker 1: (19:01) It, there, there's incongruency when that happens, right? So like, all of this is part of the, the great recipe. You've done a great job of stepping into the pond and finding the rich in the niche or the riches in the niches. And I know that they're, you're, you're actively mining that. Let's start going through the 10 filter questions, because I think they're, not only do I think that they're smart, um, but I, but I also think that they're smartness, if you will, , uh, in the layers, right? So some of the questions are multi-layered. Some of the questions are deeper than maybe what somebody might think as they're quickly going through them, and that, oh, I don't have to answer that one. I could just bypass that one. Or I'll just, I'll focus on, you know, question two, six and 10. And that should be good. Speaker 1: (19:46) And it's not good. The 10 filtering questions are 10 filtering questions on purpose. So, so let's, let's go through them first. I'm, I'm just gonna go through them, uh, quickly and then, and then we'll go back and slice 'em apart. So, question one, are you interested in solving the problems this group has? Question two, have you worked with any already? Three, can they afford to pay you four? Are they willing to pay more for better service? Five, do they already know they need an agency like you? Six? Are they numerous? Seven, do you, uh, do you have only a few real competitors? Eight. Can you find them easily enough through listen associations? Uh, nine, can you find a target rich environment where they gather? Uh, and then 10, will you or will some make marquee clients advocates and references? Okay. So let's slice all of these apart and go through them in depth. So walk us through, number one, are you interested in solving the problems this group has and why you put that first? Speaker 2: (20:53) Okay. So first let me grab my book, my 17th book. Amazing. And Stephen, my books are my children. Hmm. And like my children, I expect them to take care of me in my old age. Okay. So let's go to chapter five and that first one. Um, are you interested in solving the problems if solving their problems doesn't energize you? It's a non-starter. Um, when I was looking at the different groups, I've done a lot with technology services companies, okay. Speaker 2: (21:24) And I thought, huh, do I wanna spend all my time with technology services companies? Um, I had a chance once to buy the agency I'd started at and worked my way up to president. And, um, I didn't know this strategy, it was just instinctive and I followed it. And we were the leader in real estate, community marketing, you know, new home communities, master plan communities throughout Southern California. Okay. Um, we had all the top people, and and you eat on that whale for years, you catch a whale, like a master plan community that's a eight, seven, you know, seven, eight year project. You bet. Um, but I didn't buy, and one of the reasons was I didn't wanna spend the rest of my life talking about cathedral ceilings and low flow toilets. You know, it was just like, uh, it didn't excite me. Yeah. So, uh, I went out on my own and formed my own lemonade stand and went looking for the, for the right niche. So agency owners, I love the problems they have. Oh, by the way, research. Yep. Number one problem for two outta three agency owners is, and you know it, Steven, the dry sales pipeline, not enough qualified prospects in that pipeline. Yep. And business development is their heartburn, it's their pain. Second problem for, uh, 50% of agency owners, not enough time to do business development. Um, should we move to two? Have you worked with them already? Speaker 1: (23:03) 1, 1, 1 more piece to to number one. Speaker 2: (23:05) Okay. Speaker 1: (23:07) Because if we don't get right what you just said, you know, that, that we're interested in solving the problems that's gonna come through also in the content. When, when, when you know that Drew and I, uh, teach the point of view piece, right? So, predictive roi, we believe, like in our core, we believe, uh, that most agencies, business coaches and strategic consultants go about business development in the least effective, most painful way possible. There's a better way we call it. So with authority methodology, yeah. That is our belief system. It is our truth. So if you're just kind of like, eh, on point number one here, which is why it's an important filter that's gonna show through in your content, that's gonna show through how you show up in the pond, right? Speaker 2: (23:51) Right. We have an energy meter. Yeah. Everybody has it. And they can tell if you have energy around this topic or not. Are you just there? Oh. Because you're trying to serve that, you know, it's like if you're not genuinely energetic about it mm-hmm. , um, nor, uh, was famous author about, uh, you know, the power of enthusiasm. You know, so if you don't have enthusiasm, right? Um, it comes across and you can't fake it. Speaker 1: (24:26) No, Speaker 2: (24:26) You can't fake sincerity. Speaker 1: (24:28) No. Cuz cuz then you look like you're trying to get rich in the niche and Right. And then that, and that feels a whole lot of yucky to everyone in the pond. So, um, okay. So let's, and Speaker 2: (24:37) By the way you just said that Yeah. The riches are not just money. Yeah. Um, there are 12 different riches, uh, that you get from a, a money finishes 12th on the list. Um, when you're, one of the riches is you love to work. You love to work because you love solving their problems. Uh, you love these people. So that comes through Speaker 1: (25:03) 100%. Yeah. When, when, when somebody goes to the Baba Summit, the builder Better Agency Summit, this May, um, as the previous two summits, when, when Drew McClellan gets on stage to do his keynote, like he has the previous two, there will be there, there will be tears, there will be shouts of joy, there will be, it's an emotional delivery of a keynote. Why? Because everyone, all 300 and plus whatever number of people who are going to be there this year will know that he is there for them. And that he not only speaks their language, his stories align with that. His passions all about helping them. It, it is clear through his words and actions that he is their guy. And, and, and that rings through. If he was there to just be playing niches in the, or riches in the niches, it, it, it, it, I mean, it would fall flat, right? It would be easy to suss out and see the difference. Speaker 2: (26:03) They were yelling, we love you, drew. It was like a rock concert. I was thinking like, what's going on Speaker 1: (26:10) Here? Right? And that does not happen by accident, right? Speaker 2: (26:12) No. And it comes across and Drew is an agency owner. Yep. And Ami is this other thing he's doing to help other agency owners. Eric, from predictive ROI stepped on my toes and said, you don't talk in any of your materials, that you're actually an agency owner right now. And, and that you know this and you know, when you get up in the morning, you have to worry about your pipeline and, and you have to worry about the clients and the billing. And I says, you don't tell 'em that you're walking the same journey. So that's important. Speaker 1: (26:48) It is important. Okay. So now, now let's move to number two. Speaker 2: (26:52) Well, have you worked with them already? And, and I've coached a thousand people on this, and we'll come up to this and they say, well, I'd like to work with, you know, maybe hospitals, healthcare. I heard there's a lot of money there. Um, or I could work with financial advisors. I said, well, you know, how many hospitals have you worked with? None. How many financial advisors have you worked with? Dozens and dozens. I said, okay, here's our answer. . You know, it's like, uh, uh, yes, you could pick a niche you've never been in and worked to get in there, but you're swimming upstream. Uh, there's a German proverb I like to quote, and it i'll, it translates like this. It doesn't matter how fast you're going if you're on the wrong road. Speaker 1: (27:40) Amen. Speaker 2: (27:42) And in fact, it's actually worse because you're getting farther away from where you need to be. Um, so you need to get the right road. And the right road is people who you've already helped you have some credibility with. There needs to be a story there that you, as you said, the stories you tell. Yeah. They need to be your stories. Your stories matter. Human brains are hardwired for stories. So you need to be telling stories for that target group. Speaker 1: (28:10) Amazing. Okay. Perfect. Uh, how about three, can they afford you? Speaker 2: (28:15) Can you, they afford you? Um, I always say money isn't everything. The author Zig Ziegler said, money is not the most important thing, you know, oxygen, but it's next to oxygen. So we need money to keep going. It's the fuel that keeps the, the rocket ship going here. And, um, some people just don't have the money, right. For you to have abundance, the abundance you need for your team members, uh, for causes you wanna support. Mm-hmm. , um, all the things you need to do requires filthy luer. No. It requires money. Yeah. Speaker 1: (28:53) Well, and that ties into number four. Are they willing to pay more for better service, uh, so that you're not having a race to the bottom right. That you can actually afford to invest in delighting your clients? Am I on the same page with you? Speaker 2: (29:05) You, you're absolutely right. So they have to see the value in the investment. Okay. So when we were in the real estate niche, um, they saw the value and they'll pay more. There was a quick story. This, um, one, one client wanted to talk to us. And I have to say he was a little shady. You know, they were, they were big, burly people, uh, outside his office and, uh, you know, so let's just say shady. And so I made the mistake as, as agency president, I said, just double the amount that we normally charge, and that way he'll kick us out is too expensive, you know? And he said, but what happened was he said, okay, you charge twice as much as anybody else. Must Speaker 1: (29:53) Be good. Speaker 2: (29:53) Well, obviously you're good . So okay, you're hired . And then, then he gave us some secret information and said, if it ever gets out, you're gonna have to look over your shoulder all the time. Do you understand what I'm saying? And I said, I understand. I walked out and my, uh, my, my account executive young sweet woman said that threat, do you really think he could cause us to lose other clients? I said, Linda, he was threatening to kill us. He would've us murdered if this got out. She was like, . Like, thankfully the campaign went well, and, and, uh, we moved on. Yeah. Okay. Speaker 1: (30:38) . Well, so I, I, here, here's, here's one of the reasons why, uh, I feel like number five is multi-layered. Um, so do they already know they need an agency like you? When, when I read it now, it could be just my lens and my bias, um, that when I read it, I think, oh, okay. It's because, you know, we've planted a flag of authority. We've, you know, become the authority in this space, in the niche and, and all of that. And you say you must educate the prospects that need an agency like yours. Um, so, so tell us all about five, because when I read five, I'm like, that's pretty meaty. Number five, Speaker 2: (31:12) Five is meaty. So you're looking for clients who hire agencies. They've worked with an agency before. They know the value proposition of the agency. They're not that people go like, eh, I could hire somebody in-house, or I could hire an agency. Yeah. You don't want those people. Hmm. Um, because they're asking the wrong questions. You know, an agency buys time by the year, sells it back by the hour, and gives you top talent. Yep. You're competing for the bottom talent who's willing to work for you. It's like the old joke about you're an astronaut. Are you comforted by the fact that your rocket was built by the lowest bidder ? You know? And, and, uh, so so you don't want that. So you want something they, they hire agencies. Yeah. And, uh, I, I landed a million dollar account when I was president of someone else's agency. Speaker 2: (32:15) Okay. And I got it from teaching. And, and somebody took the course and brought me in and, and they talked about their business for 45 minutes. I understood nothing about their business or what they did. Hmm. And then they said, our current agency is Manning, salvage and Lee, but, um, we've had a little falling out, so we need a new agency. Well, that was the first thing I understood, because I knew that agency wouldn't touch an account for under a million dollars . I thought, oh, um, I said, give me a week and I'll come back with a proposal. So I educated myself on this, uh, industry. Nobody was a specialist in it, and, um, won the account. Mm-hmm. . Um, another time I was brought in by a, um, fortune 500 company, and they had this project, and it, it, you'd say, this wasn't in my niche, it was about energy and gas and electric and new things like this. Speaker 2: (33:16) And I talked to 'em and I said, you know, I really don't think we're the agency for you, uh, because I have no background in this area. And they called me a week later and said, you had the account. And I, I went in and I said, and it was a, it was a great account. I said, um, why, why did you hire me? But I don't know this area. He said, actually, nobody knows this area. We were looking for something else. We were looking for somebody who could come in and completely dissect a problem and then explain it to our people how to implement it. Hmm. And we talked around and people said, oh, these are the four magic words in English language, by the way. They said, I know a guy, Henry DRIs mm-hmm. . And that's how he got it. So sometimes you'll be brought in for a certain skill you have that people recognize for, and, and that can work for you too. I give you permission to work for anybody. I want to stress you should market to one target niche, niche in Canada, niche in America, as in, you know, there's riches and niches, witches. Uh, so, uh, we don't even know how to pronounce the word, but we know that it works Speaker 1: (34:38) Well, it is, it is kind of funny. Uh, you've mentioned Eric a couple of times and he, he too says, uh, pronounces it as niche. But when, when you said, I know a guy that, that, uh, reminded me of something that I thought about mentioning, but then just forgot in the fact of how that that is actually an ingredient of how Drew and I define niche. And so if, if anyone listening, um, has heard, uh, Eric and I teach niche before, um, you know, yes, it could certainly be industry that's one of the ingredients in the recipe. Two, it could be your superpower as you just described, skill, right? It could absolutely be a superpower. Uh, three, maybe it's a business issue or challenge, uh, that, that you solve better than anybody else. And you're, your certain skill example was kind of teetering into that. So you're putting a couple ingredients together, which is awesome in, in the fourth. It, it could be an audience, maybe, you know, an audience better, maybe you know, an audience better than the client or your perspective client. So like when we, we knit all of those ingredients together, it becomes a pretty, a pretty strong recipe. So let's move into number six, which is, are they numerous? Speaker 2: (35:47) Ah, and, um, I'm a big fan of David C. Baker. I've written about 'em for years. Mm-hmm. , uh, wrote the, uh, the business, let's see, the business of expertise. Mm-hmm. . And in the business of expertise, he says, you need to have 2000 to 10,000 prospects in the area to really consider it. Less than that, it's, uh, too small of a fishing pond. Too much you're trying to drain the ocean. Um, so you, you find that for me, there are 7,800 small to medium sized agencies in America. That's a pond I can fish in for the rest of my life. Yep. And, uh, still have prospects I couldn't get to. Um, so that's what you're, you're looking for. Okay. Some other people along the way, they, uh, one chose pest control companies. Hmm. Um, and they became the pest control agency for America. And when people say, oh, I need an expert in pest control and, and marketing and all this is, I know a guy this works for our female listeners, I asked some of them and they said, yeah, we, we get called guys too. So it's okay. So I know a guy, you know, if you need an, an, uh, a research study for a agency, I know a guy Susan Byer out of Arizona audience audit. So it works that same way. Speaker 1: (37:12) Okay. So, so let's, let's go to, uh, seven. Um, do you have only a few real competitors? Speaker 2: (37:21) Yeah. So it's, um, if somebody says, I have no competition, I'm really worried. Yeah. Now, now as far as I've researched and, and we keep mentioning Eric Jensen, you know, helped me with this. There are no agency book guys other than me. The per is like, they're like, their whole thing is doing agency books. Yeah. Now, there are other ghost writers, there are other publishers. Sure. Those are still viable choices. Somebody will look at them as they look at me. I might have an edge that I specialize in the niche, um, but that doesn't mean I don't have competition. Um, so, but I don't have tons of people who can do the soup to nuts for planning a book, preparing, you know, I'm a ghost writer. Uh, I'm an developmental editor publishing the book mm-hmm. . And then what happens, our motto at indie books is publishing the book is not the finish line. Speaker 2: (38:24) It's the starting line. Right. It's about the journey that happens after that. And it's a marathon. Uh, because no author gets discovered. I, that's a myth out there. I'm gonna write this book and people discover me. You don't get discovered. I, I love the actress Margot Robbie, if you, if you know her, um, I do. And, and she was being interviewed and somebody said, what would've happened if you moved from Australia to America and you weren't discovered? And she said, I'm sorry. Well, what's the question says, well, what would you have done if they didn't, if you weren't discovered? She says, you thought I was discovered. I knocked on every door in Hollywood, every agent, every producer. And I kept knocking until somebody let me in and finally give an addition. I was not discovered. So as an author, you're not gonna be discovered either. You need to slice and dice that content. You need to go on podcasts. You, I have a magnificent seven things you have to do. There's a great book, 1,001 Ways to Market your book. That's the problem. There's 1,001 Way Ways to Market your book. Uh, I'll give you the seven most pragmatic things to do that are gonna get results. Speaker 1: (39:37) So is, is that something that we can, uh, either link in the show notes or share with our audience, or maybe point them to a blog post? I, I know you teach on the seven, but is there, Speaker 2: (39:47) I didn't teach on the seven and I've had articles on it, uh, in Forbes. Uh, okay, great. And, and we could link to it. Okay. Speaker 1: (39:54) Perfect. Um, so I will link to one of your forbes.com articles on that for some additional insight. Thank you for that. Um, the, the discovery thing is, is is really great. Like people think that, um, who don't know the backstory of Sylvester Stallone, he did the same thing in New York and went to every agent, uh, and, you know, did it multiple times, uh, until finally he wrote the script. And it's a really interesting story, but it's all about perseverance. So eight, Speaker 2: (40:21) The Rocky story is interesting because he also didn't know what he was worth. And one of his first meetings when they asked him how much for the screenplay, and he gave a number, the meeting was over because they thought he was an amateur. Yeah. I'm sorry, we're going to eight. Right? Speaker 1: (40:36) . All right. Can, uh, and this really speaks to your, uh, builder, a better agency example that you mentioned from, from last year. Can you find them easily enough through lists and associations? Speaker 2: (40:46) Right? You're looking for places where they go to get smarter. So the Baba Summit, they go to get smarter. The David C. Baker has a mind your own business conference where they go to get smarter. Um, there's, uh, you know, the, what is it, tan, t a a and, uh, agencies get together and they go there to get smarter. So where are these places? Pamela Slim and the whitest that calls 'em the watering holes or the ponds? Yes. So can you find them? Sometimes people come to me, there's this group they want, they're describing this psychographic, and there's, I go like, yeah, we can't buy a list of those people. They don't have any meetings where this psychographic all gathers. Hmm. Uh, so, uh, this is, this is a dry hole, uh, as they say in, in the, all this down in Texas. You got a dry hole here. Um, and no amount of fracking is gonna help you get anything out of that hole. So, uh, gee, that was probably politically incorrect. . Um, so, uh, what we need to do is find where they gather, and there's this amazing tool I have, if I could share, can I share it, Steven? Of Speaker 1: (41:56) Course you can. Speaker 2: (41:57) It's called Google . You Google, where does, you know, agency owners gather? Where do agency owners meet? Where do agency owners, uh, you know, what do agency owners read? Yeah. And, and the Google machine as one old timer called it to me. So yeah, the Google machine will, will spit out your answers there. Speaker 1: (42:20) Yeah. Well, here, here's, here's what I love about eight and nine. Um, so, so nine is, can you find target rich environments where they gathered? And you mentioned Baba, you mentioned some of the other agency centric associations when, when I think of eight and nine, I see some real cool interdependency between eight and nine. Eight. Can we buy a list of the 7,800 that you mentioned before? Yes. Uh, can then we use that list to maybe do some strategic prospecting, if you will. I wonder if this person's gonna be at the Baba Summit this year. I wonder if that person's gonna be a sponsor to the Baba Summit. And then you can start sort of pre-planning so that you can take your list and then head to nine the pond, and then make sure you're meeting the right people while in the pond. Right. Speaker 2: (43:07) Right. And there are all kinds of strategies, and you've used them, um, that there might be some pre-event, you know, a cocktail party or, uh, I know we're kicking around some kind of donut party morning donut excursion, Speaker 1: (43:21) But no running If Car Cunningham, Carly Cunningham, if you're listening to this right now, donuts Yes. Long distance running through the streets of Chicago. No, no, Speaker 2: (43:30) No. Have you seen Henry and Stephen? Do we look like marathon runners, or do we look like donut eat? Speaker 1: (43:37) I have two tight hips for peace sake. I, I'm not running. Come on. Speaker 2: (43:42) . My doctor did say that I've already eaten my lifetime supply of donuts, and I should let other people have the donuts now. But, uh, for Carly, I might, I might consent to have one in Chicago. No, the point of that is you can get together, uh, I do Q and as, uh, modeled after your campfire q and as for authors and agency owners, and I encourage people to be part of the community, come there, ask questions, to get to know other members. I, I call the 150 authors, uh, the family. Yep. And my word is I want the family amplifying each other's work. It's, it's not a quit pro quo or anything like that, but it is the law of reciprocation that the more people you help, the more you will get helped to amplify your work and share it with others. And as we said, where these gatherings are, you can do extra things. David Maister, Dr. David Maister, I recommend him. Former professor at the Harvard Business School. Mm-hmm. . Uh, he let me take one page from one of his books 20 years ago and make a career out of it. A and he always said, this is what you need to do and you need to gather, and you just don't come in and out. Um, you need to be part of the community and contributing to that community anyway. You can. Speaker 1: (45:06) Right. 100%. I I know that we're, uh, quickly running out of time. So, so bring us home with number 10. Uh, will some make marquee clients advocates and references? Speaker 2: (45:17) Well, right. If, if you have some group where they say, what would be your client, but here's the condition, you can never mention that you worked with us. Uh, this is not a good place because prospects want social proof. They want several things. They want, they wanna know that you have a proprietary problem solving process, that you're not winging it. Uh, they want to know that you have experience. Uh, they wanna know some marquee clients. They wanna be able to talk to some people that you've worked with. Um, they need all these social proofs because they can't really judge how good of a service our agency provides. Um, and everybody says the same thing. Oh, I've done focus groups with people who hire agencies. Don't say these things. Don't say how long you've been in business. Uh, they laugh at you for that. I've been golfing longer than Tiger Woods. Speaker 2: (46:09) It doesn't make me a better golfer. Okay. The other thing is, don't say we're just the right size, big enough to get the job done small enough for personal attention. They, they laugh at us for that. They say firms with five people say that firms with 500 people say that. What they wanna hear is research about their peers. Not you naming peers. But, you know, we've worked with, you know, this many people or we've done a study and, uh, our research shows, like I shared that two outta three agency owners. And the number one pain is a dry sales pipeline. Not enough qualified prospects. Yep. I surveyed over a thousand people to learn that. So they wanna learn about themselves. They wanna know that you know about them. They want to be able to tell somebody, oh, well, we hired the agency that worked for A, B, and C, and they go, oh, they're good. Um, so that's why this is important. Speaker 1: (47:07) A hundred percent love that and great way to, to, to bring us home and, and emphasizes, uh, when, when we kicked off going through that list, or actually in the introduction, um, I, I've mentioned the, the, the, the piece that you use as your bottom line to close out this chapter. You, you, you say, so I'm gonna quote Henry again here, um, what he wrote, bottom line, the more quality thinking you do upfront meaning through these 10 questions, the easier business development will be 100%. Well, well said, Henry. So I, before we go, uh, before we close out and say goodbye, um, any final advice, anything you think we might have missed? And then please do tell, uh, our audience, uh, the best way to connect with you. Speaker 2: (47:52) Thank you for asking. Sure. If anybody ask you a good question like that, you're to pause three seconds for dignity and say, thank you for asking . The, the main message is stay on the journey. And then when you do a book, is the number one marketing tool. Talking about the book is the number one fill your pipeline strategy. Yeah. So you get on podcasts, you, you give speeches, you talk about the book, the book opens the doors to do that. And also, as you taught me in Sell with authority, you can't spell authority without the word author. An author is an authority and people get your best thinking in the book. So share that with them. So for anybody in the predictive ROI world, if they wanna have a no cost, no selling zone strategy call with me on this. I'm happy to do it. Speaker 2: (48:51) Yeah. So you can just contact me at henry indie books i ntl.com. Steven will put it in the show notes, and, uh, we'll have what I call a book chat. I'll help you get clear on the goals for doing a book, what hidden assets you have to get a book done. A lot of people don't realize they're already have these assets. Uh, three, what are the roadblocks, uh, roadblocks. Don't stop agency owners, but you gotta figure a way around them, over 'em, through 'em. And then, uh, four, I'll tell you how others have gotten from where you are right now to where you want to go, because the path and the plan of others leaves the clues you need for your journey and your quest to sell with authority. Speaker 1: (49:36) Yeah. A a good friend of mine and one of my accountability partners, Don Yeager, um, often says this, this quote is not his. I just can't remember the, uh, person who originally said it. But anyway, Don often says, success leaves clues. And, and I think that that's a hundred percent correct. And Henry, uh, thank you very much for saying yes to come back to the show for this encore. And everyone, uh, no matter how many notes you took or how often you go back and re-listen to Henry's words of wisdom, which I sure hope that you do, the key is you have to take what he's so generously shared with you, the 10 filtering questions and all of the story in stories in each of those. 10, take them and apply them. Because again, the bottom line, how much work you put into the front end of this is what will determine the success. Success leaves clues, and he just gave you a bunch of them. Take it and apply it. Because when you do that through application, that's where the results will come. And again, Henry, thank you for saying yes, we all have the same 86,400 seconds in a day. And I'm grateful that you came onto the show to be our mentor and guide, uh, yet again. Thank you so much my friend, Speaker 2: (50:46) As they say at Chick-fil-A. My pleasure.

The Five Ps are often thought of as a marketing approach. You Google it, you will find a number of possibilities. I use it to help my plan, inspire and execute my photographic project to success.

Hello, and welcome to Beauty and the Biz where we talk about the business and marketing side of plastic surgery, and how Burke Robinson, MD went from a 40-surgeon practice to solo. I'm your host, Catherine Maley, author of Your Aesthetic Practice – What your patients are saying, as well as consultant to plastic surgeons, to get them more patients and more profits. Now, today's episode is called "40-Surgeon Practice to Solo — with Burke Robinson, MD". I am fascinated by surgeons' stories that relay their jagged paths from fellowship to where they are today. Nobody's path was a smooth one and nothing went scheduled as planned.  That's life. It's full of surprises, twists and turns and the secret is to adapt to these challenges and grow (or give up and settle for less). This week's special guest Dr. Burke Robinson knows this well and decided to grow. He is a board-certified facial plastic & reconstructive surgeon with 30 years of experience in private practice in Alpharetta GA. Dr. Robinson had a tough childhood start but managed to become a surgeon in spite of it, and then he ended up in a 40-surgeon ENT practice for years.  Like others who had the calling for “more”, he finally spread his wings and went out on his own.  We talked about the challenges he faced, what it took for him to finally make the move to private practice and pearls learned along the way.  He also gives a really good tip for buying a laser ;-) Visit Dr Robinson's Website P.S. Get my hard copy book for free when you leave a review at Beauty and the Biz Podcast. Just follow the instructions below:

Imagine this.  You're a pharmacist, and you wrote a book.  It's published [hurray!], and you now want to reach a broader audience by publishing the audiobook version.  You don't want someone else to narrate it!  YOU want to narrate it!  But, you don't know how to do it. You Google, “How do I narrate my audiobook?”  Half a dozen ads pop up (for online courses that want to teach you how to do it or sell you the equipment they think you need), and the other search results make it sound easy!  The next thing you know, you're watching YouTube videos and shopping for microphones on amazon.com.  About an hour into your research, you realize that there's a lot more to it than you originally thought.  In fact, the amount of information is overwhelming.  You don't know what to believe or who to trust, and you wonder how anyone narrates their own audiobook.   My name is Kim Newlove.  I'm a pharmacist, voice actor, and podcast host.  Among other things, I narrate audiobooks for women pharmacist authors.  In this episode, I share 5 resources that will get you pointed in the right direction on your audiobook journey so that you feel less overwhelmed by online search results.  All 5 resources are in the show notes. Thank you for listening to episode 190 of The Pharmacist's Voice ® Podcast! To read the show notes, visit https://www.thepharmacistsvoice.com.  Click on the podcast tab, and search for episode 190.

You Google'd it so I'm answering it! For this fun simple episode I googles "who does acne..." "what does acne..." "when does acne..." "where does acne..." "why does acne..." and "how does acne..." and explain the answer for the first search result that came up! Lets be friends on Instagram! https://www.instagram.com/your.estie.ella/ Lets be friends on TikTok! https://www.tiktok.com/@your.estie.ella Shop My Shelf https://pro.shopmyshelf.us/ellaelston Consults https://pro.shopmyshelf.us/ellaelston/consults

What you'll learn in this episode: Why all successful business owners use a combination of thought and action The difference between Google Ads, Google My Business, and organic SEO Why all roads lead to Google My Business, and why law firms should be investing in it How SEO has changed over the last decade, and how it will likely change over the next five years Why online reviews are crucial for ranking on Google, and how to get more of them About Ronnie Deaver Ronnie Deaver is the founder of NoBull Marketing, a lead generation firm for lawyers. Specializing in Google Ads and Google My Business, NoBull is know for its “No B.S. Guarantee” and fluff-free services. Before founding NoBull, Ronnie was Director of Operations and Director of Web Development & SEO at SMB Team, a legal marketing and coaching firm.  Additional Resources NoBull Marketing Website Ronnie Deaver LinkedIn No Bull Marketing Facebook Transcript: SEO has changed dramatically over the last five years, but one thing remains the same: keep Google happy, and Google will reward your firm with higher rankings. Ronnie Deaver, CEO of NoBull Marketing, has figured out exactly how to do that for his legal clients. He joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about why Google My Business is so important for law firms; how to get more valuable online reviews; and why your website still matters—but not for the reasons you might think. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today my guest is Ronnie Deaver, who is CEO of NoBull Marketing. NoBull Marketing is a lawyer-exclusive marketing firm. In this session, we're going to be touching on three areas: search engine optimization or SEO, Google My Business and Google Ads. They all play a role in generating leads for your firm. They can also make your head spin, as they have mine, but Ronnie's going to lay it out for us clearly. Ronnie, welcome to the program.   Ronnie: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.   Sharon: So glad to have you. First of all, tell us about your career path, how you got here.   Ronnie: My career path probably started around 10 years ago, and it was a very unexpected way to get into marketing as a whole. I moved to Boston, and for anyone who wonders why, it's a very stereotypical story: I chased a woman. The woman did not work out, but the city did. While I was there, I was very broke. I went on Craigslist—this is one of my favorite stories—and found a guy who was like, “Hey, I need help with my website.” I met with him at a McDonald's, and the first thing he said to me was, “Hey man, I want a website, but what I really want is to show up number one on Google.” In my head, I was like, “I don't know how to make that happen, but if you pay me this much per month, I'll make it happen for you.” So, I got my first recurring client. Fortunately I succeeded, and the rest is history from there.   As it relates to lawyers, I got involved with lawyers three or so years ago. From then on, I've been sold that they're the people I want to work with. As far as I'm concerned, it's almost like a spiritual calling. I have so much respect for lawyers because they literally raise their hands and say, “Yes, I'm willing to get involved with people at the worst times of their lives.” They're crazy. That's insane to be like, “People going through the most emotional problems of their lives, when they're at their worst and their lowest, I'm going to help those people.” I'm like, “Wow! I want to help those people help other people.” I've been working with lawyers ever since.   Sharon: Why are they at the lowest? Because they're lawyers, because they went to law school?   Ronnie: No, they're helping people who are at their lowest.   Sharon: I see. I get it.   Ronnie: If you're getting a divorce, you're pretty emotionally stressed.  If you're going through a criminal case, you're usually not your happiest person at that time. What I respect about lawyers is they put a lot of training and time and willingness into helping people who are not coming to them when they're super chippy and cheery and excited. They're usually unhappy; they're usually trying to solve a big problem; they need help; they can be emotionally touchy. It's not easy to be a lawyer. You're dealing with people at the worst, but these lawyers are volunteering to do that. It's a cool career. While I couldn't be a lawyer—I wasn't destined for that—I want to help those lawyers build better lives and build better businesses for themselves so they can help more people.   Sharon: That must keep you very busy. You answered my question. I was going to ask if you had thought about law school yourself.   Ronnie: I did, but I'm one of those guys that's more of intense action than intense thought. I thought about it, and I was like, “Man, this is not my destination.” I'm a very clearcut, no B.S. guy, and the law is a little—there's a lot of negotiation. There's no clearcut “This is right. This is wrong.” It's not that simple, and I'm a simple guy in that sense. I'm like, “This is how we do it. This is what's going to work. I've tested it and I'll evolve that over time.” I'm not destined for that high level of nuance and thought that lawyers need. I thought about it, but it's not me as a person.   Sharon: That's interesting. I'll have to think about it. I like the idea about intense action. You're a person of intense action and not intense thought, and lawyers are so thoughtful and think everything through. What keeps you attracted, then? Why, after years now, have you continued to work with lawyers?   Ronnie: The biggest thing is because they're so intensely thoughtful, they're also willing to recognize that intense thought doesn't make a business. That's the cool thing about business; it inherently is this weird balance of both. You have to have to incredibly good thinking. You have to think and know what you're doing and why you're doing it, but you can't think your way to success. You also have to take a lot of action, action that you don't know if it's going to be profitable; action you don't know if it's going to work; action even when it's hard; action when you're having a bad day. It's a combination of both.    What I love about lawyers is that oftentimes they're very driven people if they went through law school. They're like, “Hey, I know I have this weakness. I know I can think well, but I don't know what I need to do to act.” They're very willing, if given appropriate guidance and coaching, to take real, major action and have success. When I work with a lawyer, I'm usually quite confident. In almost every circumstance, I can work with that lawyer and they're like, “Yes, I want to make this business work,” and I'm like, “Great. Do this, this and that. This is what we found works. If we follow these steps, we're going to make you money.” They're like, “Great, I will follow the steps,” and they do it and they execute.    If I work with a restaurant and I work with somebody who's not quite as driven as a lawyer, you can end up with a lot less successful story. The success stories I get with lawyers are incredible. I've got one woman right now, and when I met her, she was basically facing bankruptcy. Now she's growing so fast and hiring because she can barely keep up with the caseload. They're struggling to follow up with their leads. That delta, that change, is so common in the lawyer space because once given direction, they run with it because they're so driven. I love it, and I have so much energy for it.   Sharon: That's great. I'd like to know some of the lawyers you know. Don't you find resistance sometimes? Resistance like, “I know. You don't know. I'm a lawyer. I know how to do that.” Not to knock anybody, but it's like, “I know how to do whatever needs to be done, whether it's marketing or whatever.” Do you find that?   Ronnie: I think that's broadly true for most marketers in working with lawyers. I have a unique experience with lawyers as an individual because of the way I come off and the way I speak to people. The way I think and talk and approach people is very forward. It's no B.S. It's like, “Hey, this is what I think. This is why. This is going to be the outcome if you do this and the outcome if you don't.” I'm very honest and transparent.    Maybe you have seen my guarantee—I won't go into it right now—but if I don't think I can make you money, I'm not going to charge you, basically. If I don't think I can succeed for you, I'm going to tell you I can't, and I won't take you on as a client. I make it very clear to people that I'm not trying to sell you anything. Either you want the thing I do and I can make you money, or you don't want the thing I can do or I can't make you money, and we shouldn't work together. When I come to people with that approach and I'm that transparent, that no-B.S., and I have that wiliness to not take your money, and I'm not trying to scam you or sell to you regardless of your benefit, people will come to trust me a lot quicker. They're going to say, “This guy actually has integrity.”    Character and integrity building is something I care a lot about. Because I approach my business and every person I speak with like that, I usually get very little resistance, because at that point, they're like, “Hey, I actually trust this guy.” That resistance is usually coming from fundamentally they don't trust the person they're talking to. That's not usually an experience I have, because I will willingly stop working with somebody when I'm like, “I think you should focus on a different investment, because I don't think you're getting the ROI from me for whatever circumstances. I think you should go to do this.” I do that even to my own detriment, because my fundamental goal is that I want lawyers to build better businesses. Sometimes that includes me and sometimes that doesn't. I'm willing to say that regardless.   Sharon: I can see how that can engender trust and less resistance. You're in area we've worked in, but not so much as a hands-on area. It's something that really needs to be straightened out. SEO has come a long way since the first websites and I could tell people, “Do it yourself.” That can't be done anymore. What's the difference between SEO, search engine optimization, Google My Business and Google Ads? Can you explain that all?   Ronnie: I find the easiest way to explain it is to envision an actual search. Any lawyer listening, do a search for “divorce lawyer New York City.” I chose New York City because it's going to have tons of searches and a lot of competition. If you do that search, what you'll see immediately at the top is Google Ads. You're going to see the new local service ads. I should say newer; it's been out for years now. That's where you see maybe an image of a lawyer and their reviews. Under that, you'll see text ads. Those are ads that literally just have text on them. Both of these, though, are a form of Google Ads. Google Ads, they're great. A lot of people have had mixed experiences, but the great thing about Google Ads is you can pay to play, and it works if it's done right, if you're doing it with a professional who knows how to fight Google.    Here's the thing: Google Ads is designed to spend your money, not make you money. Think about who's running it. Google wants to make money. They don't really care that much about you. They just want to make money. But when you work with a professional whose goal is to make you money, like me, my goal is to say, “Hey, Google, I don't want you to take my money. I want to make sure we're making money.” Anyway, Google Ads can be really profitable if you spend this much to get that much. So, that's Google Ads, and basically it's pay to play. You pay to advertise. You get clicks. Those clicks turn into calls. Those calls turn into cases. You run the numbers. You try to make it profitable. That's Google Ads you see at the very top.    Interestingly enough, as you mentioned, a lot has changed over the last 10, 15 years in the SEO/Google world. What's right below Google Ads now—and this didn't used to be true—is Google My Business, otherwise known as the Map Pack or the Three Pack. There are a lot of different names for it. That's the next thing, where you see names and reviews and a literal map. Back about 10, 15 years ago, you saw organic results first. You would see ads, of course, but then you would see organic results, your typical text search results, and then you would see a map under that. This was a major shift that happened roughly five years ago, where Google My Business was completely allotted to being above organic results.    Nowadays, what I talk to lawyers most about is that Google My Business shows up above all of your organic results. This is where I think you should put your effort into on the organic side. Google My Business is its own standalone profile. It has a lot of ranking factors that are a little bit different than SEO. It's going to have ranking factors based on reviews, how active you are on the profile. Are you making posts? Are you uploading photos? Have you added your services? Have you added your products? Are you doing Q&As? Are you responding to your reviews? There's a lot of grunt work, which we'll talk about later, that goes into Google My Business as a platform for ranking on there.    Quick caveat there: one of the big differences from traditional SEO—when people say, “I want to be ranked one”—is on Google My Business, you can get to rank one, two or three, but you're never going to own that spot 100% of the time. It doesn't happen. Google My Business is always switching them out. There's no owning rank one 100% of the time in your market, especially in a bigger market. So, the name of the game with Google My Business, because it's so dynamic, is not just to rank one. It's the percentage of time that you own rank one, otherwise known as your market share or your share of local voice, which are just different ways of saying how often you show up in the top three. So, just remember that, people. The big thing that's changed from SEO to focusing on Google My Business is instead of owning that rank one spot and owning it permanently for years, you're talking about a percentage of time, literally, in a given day. If a thousand searches are made in one day, you're trying to have maybe 20% of that, not 100% like you would in the old days, which is traditional SEO.   Beneath is, of course—if you search “divorce lawyer New York City,” we saw the ads; we saw Google My Business. Right beneath that is your traditional SEO. I personally don't promote a lot of traditional SEO anymore. The big reason for that is that nowadays there are all these aggregators: Super Lawyers, Lawyers.com, Justia, FindLaw. These guys are spending millions and millions of dollars a year to own these. I've found that even if you could rank here—and you can with sufficient effort, but the value you get out of it, plus the chances of your ranking are so low that it's not worth the ROI. I did the tracking once. The average website tracker converts 3%. You're going to put all this effort in, and you get 300 extra people on your website. That's like 10 calls. 300 people, that could be a big number for a lot of business owners, especially for the level of SEO they can commit to, but it's only 10 calls. Making that profitable is very hard.   Regardless, that's your three fundamental separations between Google Ads that show up at the top, pay to play. Google My Business, which is where I now recommend people put the majority of effort because it's at the top. More importantly, you're not competing with Findlaw, Super Lawyers, Avvo, any of those guys on Google My Business. You're just competing with the local people in your market. It's a much less competitive market while still having all the volume of everyone in your area searching for it. Below that are organic SEO results. That covers the three.    Sharon: Let's say I'm a family lawyer and I've never done any of this. I come to you and say, “I have money to put behind it. Can you get me to the top or near the top?” Is that possible today? Do I have to redo my website with content?   Ronnie: Yes, it's absolutely possible. Here's the thing. SEO and Google My Business, they still have a relationship together. Do you have to do everything as crazy and intense as you used to have to do with SEO? People used to think with SEO, “We have to redo the website, and we've got to make millions of pages of content. We've got to do that,” and it's this whole giant affair. You don't have to do that anymore. However, your website still does affect your Google My Business because it scans your website and uses that for context of what services you offer. If you say you're an estate planning lawyer, for example, Google wants to see that you have pages for probate, pages for estate planning, pages for wills, pages for trusts, because it's going to scan your website and use that as context.    But here's the thing. This is the big changing in mindset. It's not about those pages' rankings. Those pages are never going to rank. I don't give a crud if anyone ever Googles and finds that page. That's not the goal when you're focusing on Google My Business, at least. The goal is that Google scans them to help it understand what your business does, and then it's more likely to rank your Google My Business profile higher on that Map Pack rather than your actual page.    Here's the other reason I love Google My Business. Google My Business only shows up on the searches where people have literally raised their hands and said, “I need a lawyer right now.” It doesn't show up when they're saying, “Should I get a lawyer?” or “Can I avoid getting a lawyer?” or any of these other research terms. It literally only shows up when people say, “Hey, I want to hire a lawyer right now.” So, the leads you get from it, the people who call you, they're usually very close to making a decision. You're putting effort into showing up in front of people right when they need a lawyer, which is why it can have a high conversion rate and why it can be so profitable.   But yes, you can absolutely start ranking. A lot of my clients rank within as little as 90 days. That's possible. The reason it's possible is because if you put the sufficient grunt work into the profile—grunt work being the posts, photos, Q&As, getting reviews—reviews alone are like 35% of the factor. Put that grunt work in, and even a small boost in your ranking on Google My Business can easily turn into an extra 10, 15, 20 calls a month. 10, 15, 20 calls, maybe that's three, four or five consultations. If you close one of those with an average case value of $3,000 to $5,000, you're already starting to get profitable from what you're spending on somebody like me. The ROI to time factor with Google My Business is so much better and so much faster than whatever SEO that was in the past, where it's 12 months or 24 months to float an expense, and maybe $30, 40 grand a year for years. Google My Business doesn't have that factor. You can go a lot faster.   Sharon: You still have to do a lot of SEO behind the scenes. It shows up in a different way. Tell us more about the grunt work. Do you do the reviews? Are you doing the photography? Are you prodding your clients, saying it's time to write an article or whatever?   Ronnie: Yes, so we do as much of the grunt work as we humanly can. This what I talk about the whole time. We're not selling back magic. We're not selling a magic pill that solves all your problems. What we sell is grunt work. We know if we put this work in, it pays. So, we handle all the on-page SEO. We'll go through and optimize your website fully. For anybody who wants to hear these terms, some of these will be a little technical. We're not going too far into them, but metatitles, metadescriptions, local schema, image alt text, image compression, website speedup stuff. All your basics of having a website that makes sense to Google so they know your name, your address, your phone number, what you do, we'll handle all that.    Then on the setup side of Google My Business, there's actually quite a lot. One of the things people don't realize is that five or eight years ago, Google My Business was a set-and-forget thing. You put your name, your info, your category and never thought about it again. Maybe you get a review every now and then. Nowadays, they've turned it into a quasi-social platform. I want to be clear here: it's a terrible social platform. Never think of it as a social platform. But even if you're not going to get views or likes or whatever on it, doing that activity still makes Google happy, which means you're more likely to rank higher. It's about making Google happy, not about getting profile views or image likes. In terms of setup, you can put all that basic information in: your name, address, phone number, description.   Nowadays, they've recently—and I say recently as in the last couple of years—they've added functionality where you can add literally every service you offer. Let me give you an example. When I work with a criminal lawyer, they're not just a criminal lawyer. They do drug crimes; they do manslaughter; they do criminal deportation. They do all these different subcategories. Even below that, a drug crime lawyer is not just a drug crime lawyer. It's also Xanax crime, meth crime, marijuana crime. You can break this down. For our average client, we're adding 50 to 100 individual services, breaking down literally every single thing they do. We're adding 100 words of extra context into the back of the profile, putting every single thing they do. Again, that gives Google more context of who you are and what you do, and it makes it easier for you to rank. The cool thing is when you do rank, if somebody did want a marijuana crime lawyer near me, Google literally would say, “Provides service: marijuana crime lawyer.” You're more likely to get the call because not only did you rank higher, but you showed that you're a specialist in that industry.    You can also do products. Products are basically a visual version of that. You get to do the same thing, but you put photos and you can link to a certain page on the website. It has a little more of a visual component to it, but again, it's another way of telling Google who you are and what you do. We do all of that on the setup side.   Then you have the ongoing side. On the ongoing side, again, we do all this grunt work. We write a blog post every single month. Lesson learned; I now only work with J.D. holders to write blog posts for lawyers. I will never have somebody who has not gone to law school write a post for a lawyer. No lawyer likes that. I've never had a problem with a lawyer now that I only have people who went to law school writing it. I had lots of issues before, but we've done that for years now, no problems. So, we have an actual law student, somebody who went to law school, got their J.D., write the blog posts so the lawyer doesn't have to.    Then we go further than that. We have posts on Google My Business. We'll upload photos. If we have to, we have stock photos; even stock photos are better than no photos. We do send a little automated text asking lawyers, “Hey, send me a photo if you have it. If you have a real one, I'll take it.” I make it as easy as if you just respond to a text, I'll handle uploading the photo. So, we ask for those photos or we post our own.    We're going to be uploading our own questions and answers. People don't realize this, but you can actually ask yourself a question on Google My Business and answer it. You don't have to wait for somebody to ask you a question. That's a whole new functionality. A couple of years ago, Q&As didn't even exist. Now Q&As will do this. Say I have a family lawyer. I'll say, “Hey, what's the process of divorce?” and I'll ask myself that question. Then, J.D. holders will write a 300-word response and post that there. We're adding 10 of those a month; we're adding 3,000+ characters of words to the profile proving to Google that we're an expert and know what we're doing. Again, more and more grunt work, everything you can do.    Finally, on the review side, I can't do it for you fully. People have tried completely outsourcing but your conversion rate will be terrible. If I do it for you completely, I'll get one out of every 10 people to leave a review for you, which is a waste. What I have done—and I've gotten this up to a 40% conversion rate, so four out of 10 will leave of review of you. I set up a very simple flat automation for our clients, where all they have to do is give me a name, a phone number and an email, and we'll automatically send three to six follow-ups by SMS asking them to leave a review. It'll follow up over 10 days. It's that follow-up that makes a big difference, because the first time you ask, they're never going to leave a review. You've got to ask at least two or three more times, and they'll do it on the follow-up. That gets about a 40% conversion rate. Most of our clients are getting two to five, sometimes 10 new reviews a month.   When you combine all that together, what we end up seeing is often between 20% and 30% lift month over month. By lift, I mean an increase. If they're getting 30 calls now, next month I'd see maybe 40 calls. The next month I'd like to see 50, 60 calls. The next month I'd like to see 60, 70 calls, so that at the end of it, I have a lot of clients. Within six months, they've doubled their call volume. When you're doubling your call volume, that pretty easily turns into quite a bit more revenue.   Sharon: Wow! But you're saying, though, you still have to do all the stuff we used to do. It's the stuff we're talking about, just on your website. You'd come in and say, “Let me change the tags. Let me change this.” You still have to do that, even though people aren't coming to the website directly; they're coming to the ads or Google My Business. When you add, let's say, 15 more services, is that behind the scenes? Like if they search “criminal lawyer in New York City” and then they click on that and see, “Oh, this guy does all this criminal stuff,” is it behind the scenes?   Ronnie: It's completely behind the scenes. The customer will almost never see it unless it showed up on a very specific search. Here's the thing: it's in the profile of Google My Business itself. It's not a thing anybody can click through to. It's not a thing somebody can explore or open up. Products are a little different. Products you can click through and explore, but services are explicitly a backend thing, so Google My Business knows exactly what your services are. They sometimes use it where the customer can see it says “provides” and whatever the service is. That will sometimes show up, but you can't control it. It'll sometimes show up on the search, but there's no clicking through and seeing all those services. So, mostly we do it for Google's sake.   I love that you mentioned all that old SEO stuff as still being present. The way I think about it, Google My Business was built on the foundation of SEO. It's not that they're completely disconnected, but nowadays, SEO is a supporting tool to Google My Business. I don't usually recommend SEO as a standalone campaign anymore just because of the numbers and profit. I tracked 200 campaigns and here's what I found. I tracked every call, every form fill, every everything. I found that 60% to 80% of all calls a lawyer got over 200 campaigns could be directly attributed to Google My Business. They called straight from Google My Business. They didn't go to the website at all. They just called from Google My Business without ever going to the website.   Sharon: Does Google My Business give you a separate phone number if you're paying Google for ads? Do they give you a separate phone number to track this?   Ronnie: They do have some call tracking functionality. It's not a separate number. What they do is behind the scenes. They have what is called call history in Google My Business. I don't usually recommend it, and the reason I don't recommend doing that is because, first of all, it's bad data. It'll lead you to believe you're getting worse data than you are because it can only track the people who click it to call. It can't track the people who type it in manually. Google My Business is still going to show your actual number, but when you click it, they run it through a different phone number on the back end. So, it's only tracking 60% to 70% of your calls. It's not tracking the many, many people who Google on their desktop and then call from their phone, for example.    What I do instead is set up call tracking, where we replace your office number or we import your office number and turn it into a tracked line, depending on if you have a vanity number or really old number you love. Either way, we either completely replace your office number with a new tracked line, or we'll import your current one and make it into a tracked line, and then we put that on Google My Business. Then we have perfect data because it doesn't matter how you placed the call. Whether it's clicked on or manually called, I have that data. I know how that person called and I know where they came from.    Sharon: Is everything you're describing the same on the phone, desktop, mobile device?   Ronnie: It's all the same. They would see one phone number all the way through. It doesn't matter where they come from.    Sharon: What happens if you have a vanity number? Let's say I'm a client and I say, “Oh, I have to call John. I know his number is 1-800-LAWYER.” How do you separate those?   Ronnie: Yes, if you really care about running a vanity number, I understand. Like I said, we have the option to import that. We can import that number and turn it into a call tracking, which I think is best practice regardless. If you're going to have a fancy number, at least know how many people are calling you. I think that's the useful thing to do. So, we import that number and turn that into a call track number. Then that number stays the same. Nothing changes. It's the same number. When you switch from T-Mobile to Verizon, you get to keep your number. It's the same thing. We get to keep that number; we just turned it into a tracked one. It's the same number, but you get all the benefits and now you can track all your calls.    Sharon: When you're working lawyers, what are the top three mistakes you see, or the top three tips you have? What would you say?   Ronnie: I think as it relates to broad marketing, the biggest thing is not realizing what personally works for you as an individual. What I mean by that is the biggest thing I see lawyers do as a mistake—this is all business owners—is that it's so tempting to follow the advice of everyone else who says, “This is the best way to succeed,” and they'll do it regardless of whether or not it's good for them as an individual. I'll give you an example of somebody it's not good for. Say you've got a very shy person, a very shy lawyer who doesn't enjoy meeting in person. It makes them very nervous. It makes them very sickly and unhealthy and anxious. They're having a bad day. Every time they go to a networking event, they're miserable. But every lawyer they've ever met has told them the only way they're going to succeed is if they get good at networking, so they grind their way through and force themselves to go to all these networking events. The reason I think that's a terrible idea is because business is marathon; it's not a sprint. This is general business advice separate from marketing. Business is a marathon, not a sprint. If you go do things that make you miserable all the way through, you're not going to be able to sustain. You're going to want to quit. You're going to want to give up. You're going to burn out. You're going to shut down. You're going to give up. It doesn't work. So, the biggest mistake I see lawyers make is trying to do things the way everyone else tells them to, regardless of how it feels to them.    Networking for me is super easy. I'm very outgoing, very loud. I speak. I can own a room very easily. Great. What didn't work for me was trying to force myself to run a lot of Facebook ads. I'm a very direct marketing guy. Cold email is how I do things. Meeting people in person is how I do things. Podcasting and talking, that's how I do things. But everyone I met was telling me, “Do Facebook ads. Do Facebook ads.” That just freaked me out. If I spent $3,000 in Facebook ads, I was terrified all month, like, “Oh my god, I'm wasting money.” Then I'd be miserable the whole day, all day, every day. I never would have gotten this far if I kept doing what everyone else told me to do.    The same thing is true for most lawyers. Find the marketing path. Find the way to run your business that works for you as an individual, even if everyone else tells you it's not the best way. Again, success is going to come from surviving over the long run, over the marathon, so you can find what works and find the thing that keeps building up rather than the short-term thing everyone says should work. That's the biggest mistake with lawyers. Just find the path that works for you. If you don't like making content, you don't want to be on TikTok, you don't want to network, you don't want to whatever, that's fine. There's a way to do it; I promise. You've just got to find the way that works for you. That's my number one tip there.   The second one, as it relates to Google My Business specifically, is that it's not a set-and-forget profile. I'm going to say it again. It is not a set-and-forget profile. Five years ago, you were right; it kind of was. You would set it. It wasn't even the thing that showed up first. It was secondary. Now, it's the thing that shows up first. I've tracked 200 campaigns. The majority of your leads comes from Google My Business. Think about this: all roads lead to Google My Business. Here's why. You run that billboard campaign. They'll remember your billboard. They might remember your name, and what do they do? They Google your name. What's the first thing that shows up? If you do a Google search for the business and you have a Google My Business listing, the first thing they see on the entire right side of the screen is a massive thing with everything about you, your reviews, you information. That is Google My Business. It's literally massive. It takes up the entire right side of a Google search. It's huge.    So, if you run that billboard campaign, you run that Facebook ad, you do that radio campaign, even if you get a referral, the first thing people do nowadays is they Google you and read your reviews and look at your profile. I've seen lawyers lose referral leads because they were Googling them, and they were like, “Hey, you've only got one review. I don't trust you. Your Google My Business profile looks terrible.” All roads lead to Google My Business, so what I tell people is don't set it and forget it. Put more effort into it than anybody else, whether you pay somebody or do it yourself. This is not stuff you can't do yourself; it's just a lot of grunt work. Get in there. Make the posts, add the photos, get reviews. Do the work. All roads lead to Google My Business. Don't set and forget it. Make use of it. Find everything you can do. You'll get paid for it in the end. It's grunt work that pays. That's what I tell people: it's grunt work that pays.   Which brings me to my next thing, which is that when it comes to reviews, there's a big myth. I get so many complaints about reviews. “I can't get reviews. I'm a criminal lawyer. Somebody who just had a child sex case doesn't want to leave a review. Somebody who just went through a divorce doesn't want to talk about the divorce.” First of all, you don't actually know that. There are a lot of assumptions. I know if you were going through a divorce, you wouldn't want to leave a review, but you don't know that about other people. I have met a lot of criminals who are pretty thrilled to brag about the fact that they were a criminal who got off the hook. They're very thrilled to leave that review. They're proud of it. You've got no idea what people are willing to do. Don't assume you do. More important, the reality is that reviews are so profitable. Even the referral person is going to look at your reviews. So, you've got to get those reviews, and the number myth I see is that most lawyers think they can only get reviews from paying clients, people who have succeeded and paid you. That is not true. The only requirement for a review is that you gave somebody legitimate legal value.    Let's think about that. What does that mean? I'll give you an example that blows it out of the water every time. Estate planning lawyers, every quarter they're going to host a local seminar at the nursing home, for example, and 60 people are there. Maybe they get three, four, five clients out of that session. They're thrilled. They've just made so much money. However, here's what they do next. After that seminar—they've just spent two hours with these people—the ask all 60 attendees to leave a review right then and there. They get 15 to 20 extra reviews in one day for a seminar they were already going to do and they already got five clients out of. At free consultations, you just spent 30 minutes giving legitimate legal value to somebody, even if they don't become a client. I've got clients right now who get three, four, five reviews a month just from people they did a free consultation with. They didn't even become clients, but at least they got a review out of it for that free consultation. So, there are lots of creative ways that you can get reviews. You've just got to think, “Did I provide legal value of some sort?” Friends and family count here. If you gave legitimate legal value, if somebody asked for advice or a thought or suggestion or direction and you gave legal value of some form, that's cool; ask for that review. You're safe to do it. It's worth the payout.   My final thought for people, and I'll close off here, is that I know you've probably had a bad experience with Google ads when you tried running them yourself. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There are a lot of lawyers who are like, “I'll never do Google ads. It's never profitable. I tried it once and I lost a lot of money,” especially after Google launched Google Express Ads. I don't know if you remember those, but Google tried it for a while. Basically, Google wants to get rid of us agencies because we are really good at not getting people to spend as much money. We're really good at getting our clients to reduce the budget with Google ads. Google wants a direct path to the client where they can work with the lawyer and the lawyer pays Google. They don't want a middleman. However, the benefit of the middleman is that when you work with an appropriate middleman, you can get it to where we're constantly telling Google, “I don't want to pay for this. I don't want to pay for that. I don't want to pay for this.” What we're doing every day and every week is finding out what's worth paying for and what actually turns into money.    I'll give you an example. If I work with a criminal lawyer, what I've found out—and we've helped clients make more money this way—is that if we just pay for DUI searches, we'll get some cases that way, but a lot of people who are in a DUI, some of them don't have the money or they aren't very socially responsible people. They're not likely to have the money or to pay out. What I found was if we go after nursing DUI or contractor DUI, suddenly the game changed. Now we were going after people who lose the entire livelihoods and licenses. A nurse loses her license for a DUI. Suddenly, those people have more money because they're nurses, and they're way more incentivized to make it work because they don't want to lose their license. I have that context where I can pay money on Google Ads to find the leads that are most likely to make you money and actually convert. When you work with a professional on Google Ads, you can make your campaign a lot more profitable than anything you've ever done on your own. So, don't throw out Google Ads. You're literally getting to pay to put yourself in front of people who say, “I need a lawyer right now.” If you work with a professional, you can make a lot of money with it. Don't throw it out. Consider it.   Sharon: You work with Google a lot. It sounds like Google would love to go to a lawyer and say, “Just buy my ads.” It doesn't matter whether it's a nurse. This is just off the cuff. What's next for Google and you? Do you feel changes coming? It seems like every time one learns what's going on, it's changed. What do you feel is changing or coming?   Ronnie: Yes, one thing I love about Google is that while it seems like it's changing a lot—which it is. It's changed more in the last five years than it's changed in the last 15. At the same time, it's kind of the index fund of marketing. What I mean by that is if you think of it as a broad hull and you don't get distracted by Google itself in terms of user behavior, it's the most ingrained thing now. It's a social/cultural thing. When you don't know something, what do you do? You Google it. You look for it. You make a search for it. It's the most basic thing. We haven't quite gotten to that with social media like Facebook. You're not so ingrained with the idea of Facebook that you go on Facebook to look for an ad to find an answer to your problem. It's not the same; it's completely different. Google has the benefit of being this culturally ingrained thing. Even though its platform is changing a lot from a user behavior standpoint, nothing's really changing, unlike Facebook where a single iOS update completely shattered Facebook ads, and now you suddenly can't make money on it. That's wild. That's very unlikely to happen on Google because it's so ingrained in culture and how people work. It has the benefit of being high intent. People only go there when they intend to find an answer or when they intend to hire somebody, unlike Facebook. They don't intend to find an ad on Facebook; they just happen to.    I bring that up because when it comes to Google and why I love it and expound on it so much, it's the index fund of marketing. It's hyper-ingrained in culture. It's not going to change very much at all in terms of the cultural side. It might evolve, but it's going to be Google. It's going to be the idea of searching for a solution. That may evolve in its format. It might be like a VR headset, where an ad shows while you're searching for something on a VR headset. But fundamentally people are going to search for answers, and you can pay or put grunt effort in to show up in front of people when they search for the answer, whatever format they take. So, in some ways it's changing; in a lot of ways it's almost not at all. For me, I'll probably be on the Google search world, because why would I not put all my effort into putting myself in front of people when they're already looking for me? That's where I want to be. It's easier that way. Fundamentally that's not changing.    Now, when it comes to actual platforms—which, to me, are on a micro scale compared to the macro we just talked about—there is some micro-stuff changing. The thing that's going to keep changing is Google's going to keep trying to find ways to get rid of agencies. I'm going to have to keep fighting. We're going to fight that as long as we can. There's going to come a day where eventually Google succeeds with that, but the agencies will probably still have a role because business owners have better things to do than manage their budgets or campaigns. There may be a human component forever, but there will probably be a point where Google succeeds enough where their ads actually perform at reaching their goals for the client. That is probably still many, many years off, because right now the reason Google Ads can't do that is because they don't know your business.    For example, right now with local service ads, which is probably the most they've ever succeeded at making it where they can go directly to the lawyer, they will run a campaign for an immigration lawyer, but they don't know that business. So, if that immigration lawyer says, “Hey, I don't do deportations and I don't do asylums,” Google has no filtering for that. You can't turn that off, so you get all immigration leads. Right now at least, there's no customization to that individual business. That's the kind of filtering I can do as the human saying, “Hey, I only want these types of cases. I don't want any of these cases.” I can put that kind of thinking into it. Google may one day fix it up, but they haven't done it yet.   What they're trying now is an improved version of all this called Performance Max. It recently came out. Basically, it's the same idea as Google Express Ads, but with the lessons from local service ads. It's like version 3, but now it goes on all of their Ads platforms. They're trying merge into one giant ad platform where you pay one budget to advertise on Google ads, display ads, YouTube ads, Gmail ads, on all their platforms all at once. Of course, in theory that sounds great, but if you just give it to the bots, it's going to spend money. It has no context of who you want to target, what types of cases turn into money. Performance Max might have a role to play. I don't expect it's going to take over the agency role anytime soon. I probably need to keep fighting them for a long time to make sure we're only spending money when it makes money. But what we're going to keep is a trend where Google tries to find some new way where we don't need an agency. They're going to underestimate and still not understand what the individual business actually needs, so we're going to keep going back and forth until one day they figure it out. I don't know how long that's going to be, but it's probably at least five, 10 years.    Sharon: You've given us a lot to think about. It's not your father's Google, I should say.   Ronnie: Yeah, it's changed a lot.   Sharon: I want to thank you so much. It's been very, very interesting. We greatly appreciate you being here.   Ronnie: Absolutely. I had a great time. Thanks for having me.  

Before you buy a new fancy smart watch, do you just read the packaging or product description and buy the product?No, you dig around. You Google them, check social media and even ask friends that might know about the product or service.What you're looking for is real world reviews from real people. This is user generated content or UGC for short.Find out more about user generated content and why you should use it on this episode of This Week In Marketing. What you'll learn in this episodeThe benefits of using UGC for your businessReal world examples that aren't watch relatedA simple way you can start creating UGC

“Try to resist labeling yourself, resist taking on any label because that hems you in. Suddenly, you think yourself as an X. And there's some internal pressure to believe everything that an X believes. And it makes you take sides just based on a label rather than reasoning your way through the issues.” ~ Chris Mayer, manager and co-founder, Woodlock House Family CapitalBonner Private Research is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TRANSCRIPTJoel Bowman:Well, welcome back to the Fatal Conceits podcast, a show about money, markets, mobs, and manias. If you're joining us for the first time or even if you're a regular listener, please do head over to our Substack at bonnerprivateresearch.substack.com. There, you'll be able to check out hundreds of irreverent essays on everything from lowly politics to high finance, and beyond. Plus, a bunch of research reports and, of course, many more episodes of the Fatal Conceits podcast just like this one. Not a few of which feature my guest today, a popular guest on the show, and a good friend of mine.Christopher Mayer is the portfolio manager and co-founder of the Woodlock House Family Capital fund. And he joins me today. Chris, good to see you, mate. How are you doing?Chris Mayer:Yo, good to be on with you, buddy. How you doing?Joel Bowman:Good, mate. Always good to have a brighten up my day with a chat with you, mate.Chris Mayer:There you go. Yeah. Same. Looking forward to it.Joel Bowman:Now, readers and, I guess, listeners now who have heard a few of our previous discussions know that one of the themes that we touch on with Chris as an increasingly rare omnivorous reader is we like to thumb through some of the spines on his bookshelf, see what's got his gray matter, taking and inspired. We've had, I think, maybe three or four of these discussions now. And we've set them up with a few different categories of book, whether it be philosophy, or travel, or fictional, or what have you.But you had a bit of a different idea today, Chris, and thanks to your recommendation. I've done a little bit of a two-day crash course on your selected author and has turned up some very, very interesting points. So maybe we can get right into Neil Postman and his seminal 1985 work. It's quite amazing to think that this was that long ago, titled Amusing Ourselves to Death with the very appropriate subtitle of Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business. (Here's a link to the book.)Chris, you want to set the stage for us?Chris Mayer:Yeah. So I put this under the category of understanding media or understanding media culture. So if you want to have some framework to make sense of social media and TV news and all the stuff that goes on, this book will really make you think. Yeah. What I think about is this eerily prescient. So, yeah, you said it came out in 1985. It's hard to believe that ... Here's the copy. I'm going to read just the beginning because this sets up the whole book. There's a little part in the beginning where he compares the dystopian vision, Orwell, 1984, and Aldous Huxley, Brave New World.So it's just one little paragraph. I'm going to read it because this is when he says to himself what this book is about. So it says, "What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book because there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to pacificity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance.Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we'd become a trivial culture preoccupied with the equivalent of nonsense." So he goes on to say here that this book is about the possibility that Huxley and not Orwell was right.I mean, already just in there, there's a lot you could already sense, which is we're bombarded with so much information that it almost makes everything trivial. I mean, you're bombarded with so much news and takes all the time. It's hard to make sense of all. So I would say, if I had to sum up the key thrust of this book and what one of the main things I learned about, and we could talk more about it, is Postman really makes you think more about the medium itself rather than focusing so much on what is being said.But he would say, for example, instead of the content of a tweet that gets passed around a lot, he would make you think about, "Oh, what does that medium of Twitter bring? What kind of conversations does it force us to have or encourage us to have?" I remember one example in the book he gives is, think about smoke signals. If you're only communicating by smoke signal, it limits the conversations you can have. You can't have a deep philosophical discussion over smoke signals. Yeah.And so if you think of every medium that way, you think of Twitter as a medium, it constrains you in a certain way. There's the obvious character limitation. But there's the whole thing about it, there's the likes, there's the retweets, there's followers. And what conversations do that force you to have? What messages that it'd force you to have? And so that's the thing about this book that really makes you think about.Joel Bowman:That's a really interesting and very germane points as Twitter and, of course, Elon Musk, and that whole potential takeover and the debate on whether or not one man should control this particular medium, and just the power of that medium and the power that it has accrued in just a very, very short amount of time.One of the points that I saw Postman make in an interview ... And this was in '95. So this was 10 years after the publication of this particular book, Amusing Ourselves to Death. So it was really, as you mentioned, I think the right word is eerily prescient because even the terminology that he's using, it almost looked like he had taken stock of the conversation today, and then transported himself back to '95 just to give us a bit of a warning about what was ahead.But he gave ... I remember he used this point about this technology, particularly communications technology, being this Faustian bargain, where it wasn't just this one-way cornucopia of benevolent gifting that we were the receivers of but we also had to give something in return for that. And a few of the points that he brought up, for example, was just basic social skills when we've got our head in a personalized computer and we're not building a community. How does the medium change the way that we interact with one another beyond just the way that we interact individually with information?And I think, to your point about Twitter, I mean, that's just such an obvious thing that we can point to and say, "Well, there's obvious echo chambers here, where people and whole communities are becoming just more and more fragmented and atomized.Chris Mayer:That's it, yeah.Joel Bowman:Do you think that that is somehow catalyzing the political divide that we see today, or?Chris Mayer:Yeah, definitely do. I mean, you think about people who can build their own little echo chambers now. You can tailor all your input so that you're only getting the stories that you want to hear. So it definitely is fragmenting that way. And I think also the point about new technologies and new mediums that he makes is that it's not like people tend to think, let's say, for example, when email came along and people tend to say, "Well, just another way to send a letter." But it wasn't, it's not that at all. It's a completely new thing. And it changes everything that went on before. Nobody writes letters anymore.When TV came along and people, in the beginning, they would have depreciated or downplay its potential, its influence, because for them, they just saw it as what they were familiar with as an extension to that rather than something that really was brand new and changed the game, even though they didn't fully understand it. They didn't fully understand what television would do to politics.And one of the interesting things, I don't know, I don't think it's in this book, I think it's in another book, Technopoly. He talks about the Lincoln-Douglas debates.Joel Bowman:Okay.Chris Mayer:And they would go on for eight hours. They'd go on for hours, right? They didn't have television. They were there. It was like an event, you'd sit and then have intermissions. And the other guy would talk and they have an hour and then you'd have an hour to respond or whatever it was. But we have TV now. What does TV do? Compresses it, makes an entertainment, we have commercials. And now we do these debates and they have two minutes to respond. It's ridiculous.Joel Bowman:Yeah, sound bites.Chris Mayer:What's your solution to the Middle East? You got two minutes.Joel Bowman:Be concise, make it snappy. And also, I think, to your point there about this participating in person in communal activities, Postman refers to it as the co-presence of communications, where you are literally ... I mean, you and I are talking over Skype here for just want of geographical closeness. But there is something radically different from, let's say, attending. We were at the theater down here just last week with my wife's dad who was visiting in town. And we took him along to a show. We saw Giselle.I mean, it's an incredibly different experience when you go to Teatro Colon down here. It's a packed house. People are there, they're clapping in unison. It's very, very different from we took my seven-year-old daughter along and she'd seen some performances on the television before. But this was just a whole another world. And so it makes me think, given just the past couple of years and how these kinds of rolling lockdowns and interruptions to global travel and just almost the wholesale cancellation of the public space, how that might have affected the way that we digest our information.Chris Mayer:And I don't think we really fully understand it yet. That's the other thing is even social media, it's been around a while now. But I don't know yet that we fully appreciate and understand it, what its impacts are and how it's changed things. It took decades before people really figured out TV and how to use it and what its effects were and, yeah, it may take some time. And it's creates a whole new concept. I mean, it was one of the part in the book I like where he talks about, there are many examples of this kind of thing. But he talks about how even the concept of news of the day, it didn't exist unless you had a medium that you could see what was going on in faraway places, and made me think that that's one of the other things about Twitter.Here's the line I like. He says the news of the day is a figment of our technological imagination. And if one thinks about not just Twitter but any kind of social media or the internet generally is you can instantly see what's going on all the way across the world. And everyone right away have an opinion. I mean, it's like ... So even in Russia, Ukraine, how many times you see people that put little Ukraine flags on their Twitter page? Or how many people, they ... It becomes a show in itself.How much is this is really genuine and how much of it is just, "Look at me, I'm on what they call virtue signaling. Look at me, I'm on the right side." And you aren't doing crap for Russia, Ukraine, putting a little flag on your profile. You know, you want to do something to help out? There's lots of ways you can help. Rather than just, look at me pandering to the public opinion. So I don't know. Postman makes you ... When you read Postman, you can get pessimistic about this stuff.Joel Bowman:Right.Chris Mayer:He knows it too because he's always critiquing and he doesn't necessarily have solutions. He tries hard at the end of the book to have some solutions to this.Joel Bowman:One of the things that I liked, which seems to go a little bit begging nowadays when you've read how-to books or nonfiction type 12 steps to this or what have you. They're heavy on prescribed solutions but not necessarily on asking questions. And one of the things I think that Postman did, at least in one of the interviews that I saw, the interviewer tasked him with like, "Okay, well, you seem to diagnose a pretty good problem here, but what have you got?"And he came up with a series of questions and I thought it was very Socratic of him where he sat back and said, "Well, I think for a start, we need to be sensitive to the kinds of questions that these new technologies ask of us." For example, who benefits from this particular medium, this new medium of communication, for example? Is it the community? Is it society as a whole? Is it a small group of people who are, excuse me, who are the owners? What problem does this technology solve is another question that he had, and he used the example where he had just been to buy, this will date the interview a little bit, but a brand new Honda Accord when he bought it at 295 and he said the salesperson there at the car yard was upselling him to cruise control.Chris Mayer:I remember this interview, yeah.Joel Bowman:So what problem does cruise control address? And the salesman was like, "I've never had that asked to me before, but I guess the problem is just keeping your foot on the gas." Of course, Postman's response was, "Well, I've been driving for, whatever, 45 years used now and that hasn't presented itself as a problem thus far." So anyway, just the framework of asking questions-Chris Mayer:Yes, that's one of the very memorable bits. I remember that interview because I remember that exact example. And I often think about that. When I get a new technology, oh, what solutions does this solve exactly? What problem does it solve? And it's like you almost read the book because the way he ends Amusing Ourselves to Death is with a whole series of questions. Again, because he's ... But he says there's a good reason for that in the end.Chris Mayer:I like this line where he says, "To ask the question is to break the spell." So you get hypnotized by this new medium or new technologies. But if you just ask the question, immediately, you are less under that influence and at least you're thinking about different ways it's impacting yourself and what you can say, what other people are saying, why they're saying it, things like who benefits. There's a lot of questions you can ask. And it diffuses it a little, its influence. Same thing if you see a persuasive piece of advertising, you know what's going on.Joel Bowman:Right.Chris Mayer:If buying doesn't make you sell, I want you to buy something. Just knowing that helps break the spell a little bit, right? Not always because sometimes things are so subconsciously influential. You can't really do anything about it. I've noticed that at least with myself sometimes, too. Damn it, they planted this idea in your head. Almost like I want to not see certain advertising. So I don't even want to see it because it's like magic and it pushes little buttons in your subconscious. So, yeah, that's your best route of resistance is to ask the questions.Joel Bowman:Yeah, it's a so what do you think of the emperor's new clothes type of question.Chris Mayer:Yeah.Joel Bowman:Well, actually, now that you've mentioned it, he does look a little naked over there.Chris Mayer:Yeah, it is. Postman's books are really easy to read. And this book is like, is it 200 pages long, it's 160 pages. And all of his books are like that. They're short. They're like sub 200. And they're very easy to read, quotable, witty. And they're only dated by the examples, like you said. He'll make references of things going on in Nicaragua or President Reagan. But if you didn't have those examples, it's really applicable.And he is a really good translator for Marshall McLuhan because he was really influenced by McLuhan. And McLuhan stuff is much more difficult and harder to read. I mean, I have this one here at Marshall McLuhan, Understanding Media, which is a classic. I mean, this book came out, I think, in the '60s. But a lot of the ideas Postman has come out of McLuhan. And this book is big, fat book and a dense book. But if you wanted to go into where this stuff came from, you could go to McLuhan.And there's one part in here, for example, because Postman is big on this too, like I mentioned, he's big into the medium and thinking about, "Well, what its effects are," really what its purpose is, the old Greek word like teleology. It has an almost inbuilt purpose, even though you may not know it. And McLuhan has this one chapter, where he talks about how we're all asleep and we don't necessarily think about what we're saying. For example, he's responding to a general says that, "We're too prone to make technological instruments the scapegoats for the sins of those who wield them."And Marshall McLuhan is saying, "That's ridiculous." And at first, I remember when I read that quote, I was like, "Makes sense to me," right? Technology, it's how people use it. And McLuhan is saying, "No, that's ridiculous." He goes, "Let me consider this. Suppose we were to say apple pie in itself is neither good or bad, it's the way it's used that determines its value. Or the smallpox virus isn't itself neither good or bad, it's the way it's used that determines its value. Or again, firearms are in themselves neither good or bad, it's the way they're used that determines its value. That is, if the slugs reached the right people, firearms are good.If TV too fires the right ammunition at the right people, it is good. I am not being perverse," he says. So I love that style because it makes you think, it makes you think about stuff. That's why it's such a great book.Thank you for reading Bonner Private Research. This post is public, so feel free to share it with sinners and saints alike...Joel Bowman:He goes all the way back to the agrarian revolution and the advent of the written word. And then all the way through to ... I guess Postman was probably influenced by his idea of the reading public, for example.Chris Mayer:Yeah. The trivium, McLuhan's big on that, the basic building blocks of knowledge. Yeah. And he was a big fan of James Joyce. And, yeah, the ancient Greeks. Yeah, he's challenging to read. But I think ... It took me two months to get to that book and I would just read a little bit every day. But lots of thoughtful stuff in there.Joel Bowman:That's interesting. It brings up another point as well. And as a card-carrying Joyce Head, who's about to head off to Dublin for the centennial balloons day celebration this June 16th. Yeah. Write me if you're going to be there and we'll grab a beer with the other freaks and geeks doing the balloon walk is this idea of attention span. And you mentioned this McLuhan's dense and rewarding book if you can put a couple of months into it. And obviously, Ulysses is notoriously a century on. And we're still unpacking all the different layers there.I'm wondering, to go back to Postman's questioning the nature of the medium itself as opposed to just the information that it's delivering, how you think these new mediums have affected both the individual and society in general's attention span. And how much we can pay attention to ... I mean, we have a look at these news cycles, they seem to just be getting increasingly shorter, where you need to, as you say, have an opinion on the history of Eastern European geopolitics. One week, you need to be a vaccinologist. The next week, you need to be a critical race theorist. The next week, you need to know all these things.I mean, how are these new mediums affecting our ability to be modern polymaths?Chris Mayer:Yes. Yeah, I agree. I mean, society in general, we become very impatient people with what we read. I mean, there's that little acronym people throw around, TLDR, too long, didn't read.Joel Bowman:Oh, right.Chris Mayer:And that's sad to me. People put that out. Yeah. And they put it out there like they're smart or being witty somehow but summarizing some longer argument in a soundbite. But, yeah, I mean, that's exactly right. A lot of the books in my library, you're not going to find the quick New York Times bestseller. A lot of these books, they take time to get through, but that's the rewarding part of it is to spend a couple of months with one book, an author, an idea and going through it.I mean, it seems like that's really becoming something that fewer and fewer people are interested in, right? I mean, like you say, it's a death of long-form journalism is another area where you see that. Everything has to be compressed and served up so somebody can get it in 30 seconds of lesson and be done.Joel Bowman:Yeah, even I think about this with regards to just the realm of fiction in general. Maybe have a different experience here but pretty much all ... And this seems to go very along that, this would be incredibly unpopular to say, but it seems to go very much along gender lines, where guys tend to read, older guys that I know, tend to read nonfiction and completely issued fiction have just zero patience for it, fall asleep at page three. And it seems to be only women, at least that I speak to, who have any patience for fiction and maybe that's just they have different types of patience or different types of tolerance levels, do you find that as well. It's kind of a weird observation.Chris Mayer:Yeah. I mean, one of the things I've observed too is that a lot of new books that come out, especially, I don't know, they're more topical or about investing and they're mostly nonfiction, they all tend to be around 200 pages. Almost like the publishers have drawn a line.Joel Bowman:This is the public's attention span!Chris Mayer:Yeah, it's 200 pages, substantial enough where you can still sell it as a book between 200 covers, but it's not going to put off anybody to show them this. Every once in a while, there are exceptions, right? And they become noteworthy in themselves. I remember when David Foster Wallace had Infinite Jest. Remember, that was a brick.Joel Bowman:Yeah.Chris Mayer:And David Graeber's Debt book was another big fat one that became a bestseller. So there are exceptions, but in general, a lot of these books are pretty thin.Joel Bowman:I wonder how many of those big classic tomes, if Dostoevsky or Thomas Mann rocked up with Buddenbrooks to the publisher with like-Chris Mayer:And then it comes in with Critique of Pure Reason, here you go.Joel Bowman:I'm sorry, you've got to ... Yeah, you're going to have to-Chris Mayer:We'll break that up in a series of 10.Joel Bowman:Yeah, yeah. How about we do a Netflix special and then people can binge it overnight? So do you-Chris Mayer:There's one thing you mentioned that I want to get to before I forget was you said about, you have to feel like you have an opinion about everything. In one week, you're a vaccinologist. And next week, you're an expert on recurring foreign pot. I mean, that's classic.But that reminded me of one of Postman's solutions. And it's not in any of the books we've discussed. There's another book called How to Watch the News or something like that. But in the end, he gives 10 things. And one of them is, try to reduce the number of opinions you have by a third. So it's just an interesting exercise to go through. Try it yourself just for a week. Try to ... Instead of when you see some story or some idea, try not to have an opinion about it and say, "I don't know."Joel Bowman:Yeah.Chris Mayer:It's interesting. It's almost a little liberating because every time you take an opinion, it's almost like you're staking some ground and making a commitment because then people are more reluctant to change their opinions. So if you try to withhold your opinion as long as possible and limit the number of opinions you have, it's interesting psychological effect, just trying it out.Joel Bowman:I could see how that could have a cascading effect as well in an increasingly bifurcated society, where if you voice a particular opinion on one issue, it almost hems you in with regards to a whole litany of other issues that might have absolutely nothing to do with the original issue at hand. I mean ... Chris Mayer:Absolutely.Joel Bowman:... things that are completely independent like, "Oh, you believe in global warming, okay, you have to wear masks during a pandemic outside playing golf." Just things that have nothing to do with one another, but we have to be Team Red or Team Blue.Chris Mayer:Yeah, exactly. What, do you believe in climate warming? Well, Trump was a good president. What do you mean? How are those two related?Joel Bowman:Right.Chris Mayer:Everything's politicized or whatever. That's another reason why they resist labels. That's another exercise is just resist labeling yourself, resist taking on any label because, again, that hems you in. Suddenly, you think yourself as a X. And there's some internal pressure to believe everything that an X believes or whatever. And it makes you take sides just based on a label rather than reasoning your way through the issues.Joel Bowman:So do you think that there's a takeaway or some applicable lesson to be drawn as an investor? I mean, in definitely multiple senses, if you're the one guy who's going to sit through and read the big dense tomes and not just skim the executive summary, does that give you an edge, or?Chris Mayer:Yeah, I think there's always an edge for the patient, who are willing to read the footnotes, as the old saying goes. But it's tough because if everyone else thinks the other way, in the short term, you can look pretty dumb. And you can look pretty dumb for a while. I mean, it could go on for months or you may not get validation for a year or several years.So it requires patience to go through that but also patience to then suffer when things aren't going your way for a while. I see it all the time. Some report will come out on some company and I'll know that it's sensationalist and not particularly true in certain areas, but it'll still not stock down from 10% or 15%. And then it may not recover for months until it cycles through. And for those of us who are professional investors and live on reported returns, it can be difficult. Well, just hang on, it's coming.Joel Bowman:Right. I guess it must happen the other way, too. Yeah, go on.Chris Mayer:Yeah. Otherwise helps too, I was talking about labels. I mean, people will label certain companies in certain ways because they want you to think about it in a certain way. But you get past the label. So for example, I don't know, let's take a random example, people that are being on Tesla will want you to think of Tesla as a technology company in some way or is a battery company, where people who are not so enamored with Tesla folks and say, "Well, no, it's a car company." And they look at it through that lens.And so you come through very different points of view, depending on what label you adapt. And that happens all the time as well.Joel Bowman:And I guess it must go the other way as well when something flashes across the news and new technology and something shoots to the moon. And you might be sitting there saying, "Actually, this thing, it doesn't have any earnings. It's got no growth. It's got no pathway to profitability." But you're watching a mania unfold.Chris Mayer:That's probably actually more common because I've been in volatile markets close to 30 years and I've seen that happen many times to me, where I'll be sitting and these companies will be flying and I won't be involved in any of them, but it takes time and then they unravel. So you see companies like Carvana didn't make any money but has a concept that got people excited and went to the moon. And now it's starting to finally come apart. There's a lot of other businesses like that that don't make any money. But they had a concept.And what I've seen people do, and particularly younger investors will do, I mean younger than me, they'll focus on things that I thought they'll talk about unit economics. So they'll say, I don't know, I don't want to use too many specific name companies, but let's say Company X, they sell something. And the unit economics of what they sell is really compelling. But the company overall is still not making any money because the operating expenses and everything below that line is high and it continues to grow. But they say, "Oh, when it scales." And then they do these projections based on unit economics.And what happens a lot is those businesses never get to that scale or they continue to grow, but the operating expenses continue to grow right along with it, and they never quite get there. And so I have this basic rule that I want companies to make a GAAP profit, a profit according to generally accepted accounting principles. And if you just have that filter alone, I know you would have avoided a lot of the trouble over the last six to nine months, where these companies have fallen 70%, 80%, 90%. Didn't make any money, but for a little while, they were darlings.Joel Bowman:Yeah, it's interesting. I spoke to our mutual friend, Mr. Eric Fry, last week. And I asked him if there was a couple of key takeaways that he could give to our listeners with regards to investing and when you're getting all this noise to talk again about the Postman idea of this saturation, this glut of information, how to cut through that noise in just a couple of basic starting filters that investors can use.And he said at the margin, you can cut out a lot of noise by just looking at earnings as a company outgrowing earnings. And he said, "It sounds almost facile, but it's ignored by a lot of people because they focus on crafty accounting." And Eric referred to it as accounting wizardry where, well, it's earnings but it's adjusted for this, or all these other adjustments that the accounting department makes that can hide a lot of a company's lack of earnings or lack of earnings growth.And then one of your favorite indicators, of course, was insider buying or selling. And at the margin, you're not going to be right all the time but those two things can help cut out a lot of the information or the glut of information that is maybe not as worthwhile as others would have one believe.Chris Mayer:Yeah, I would say overwhelmingly, for most investors probably, almost everyone is listening to us, just following the companies that make a profit. Just that filter alone. Now, we have to be fair, you're going to miss sometimes a great business. I mean, Amazon didn't report a GAAP profit for quite a while, right? So you're going to have to ... I wrote a blog post about this not too long ago, that every filter you create is going to have fish slipped through the net. I mean, that's the nature of it, you're not going to catch everything.But the idea of having a filter as an investor is to cut down on that universe because if you're looking globally, as I do, there's tens, thousands security. So you have to find some way to look at that world. And for me, yeah, profit. The other way to do it is inside ownership that cuts out a lot of stuff. I'm only investing in companies where there's a family or there's a CEO or somebody owns a decent slug of stock.The other thing that you always use is balance sheet, just looking at anything that's got a lot of debt out. So if you just sift by that, suddenly, the stuff that falls through is worth taking a look at, usually. And doesn't mean, of course, that there isn't some debt-fueled company that has no insider ownership that's going to be a 10 bagger. Of course, I'm going to miss that.Joel Bowman:Right.Chris Mayer:But that's the nature of filters.Joel Bowman:And I guess it imposes whether you're looking at information just in general from the media. It could be political information or entertainment information or whatever the news cycle is, or information that informs your investing. If you employ some of these tools, then it can impose a lot of self-discipline on you, when you're just focused on a smaller universe, as you say.Chris Mayer:It does. And then the other question, I take a very hard pragmatic approach when it comes to trying to sift through news and economic reports is I always ask myself, "Well, what would be the consequence of taking a belief here either way? Would it matter?"Joel Bowman:Taking a kind of agnostic approach from the outset, yeah.Chris Mayer:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a mix ... Should I spent a lot of time figuring out the Russia-Ukraine thing? What practical difference would it make to me to take one side or the other? Or just lots of political questions or that way. And it helps you conserve your mental energy and your focus.Chris Mayer:There's another saying I like, where it's ... I don't know who first said it, but it's you are what you pay attention to. So you think about that, you are what you pay attention to. So if you pay attention a lot of this trivial nonsense all the time, that's who you are, that's who you become. Do you want to be that? Feed your mind good stuff. Pay attention to things that have some consequence that matter.Joel Bowman:Yeah. I think virtue is the habits that we undertake every day.Chris Mayer:Yeah.Joel Bowman:And it can be a bit of a spiral. I mean, I think we've probably, all listeners included, been around people who are so caught up in the whirlwind of Postman's information glut and this rapidly constricting news cycle that it's pretty easy to get yourself overheated. I mean, just from like a mental health standpoint, it's pretty easy to get yourself overheated on things that, well, are you going to become an expert in this in the next day or weeks? Shouldn't you focus on things that are, that old Voltaire quote, of tending your own garden that we have other things to do.Chris Mayer:There's a lot of wisdom like that. Girth is about sweeping your own doorstep.Joel Bowman:Sweeping your own doorstep, yeah. There you go.Chris Mayer:Wise people. But it gets to the title of his book, Amusing Ourselves to Death. So much of this is really entertainment. I mean, what we call news is entertainment. It's packaged that way. It's meant to elicit a reaction. And if you allow yourself, you're just letting them tug in control of you. So, yeah, I think that's a good message out of that.Joel Bowman:And so just changing tack slightly, what do you think of Twitter as a tool? I mean, we've talked about the drawbacks and the potential detrimental effects. I know a lot of people who see it as a tool to be able to cut through other information because they're able to focus on maybe a few investors that they like, and they follow, and it's kind of real-time.Chris Mayer:Yeah, I have a love and hate relationship with Twitter, really, because on the one hand, I've met some interesting people through Twitter. That has been valuable. There's been research that has been exchanged over Twitter. That's been valuable. I've got, I don't know, over 30,000 followers. So from a business perspective, it brings attention. I know at least a couple of investors have found me through Twitter. So it's not of no value, but then I am very mindful of the downside, too. So there are ways that I manage it. I'm only on it for certain times. So I'll go and try and tweak some things.I like to joke with my friends and say, "My Twitter account is a one-way feed." I put stuff out but I'm not going to engage anybody. Don't be offended if I don't see your tweet, I don't favorite you and retweet you. I don't do it for anybody. I don't pay favorite and tweet. I have lots of people I follow. It seems almost like a courtesy and they follow you. "Okay, I'll follow you." But I don't get into it that much because it's an enormous time sink otherwise.And you find yourself just ... I've had this early on when I was on Twitter, you're there for 45 minutes and then you're done. You're like, "Well, what did I do?" It's like junk food for the brain. What did I really get out of it? Yeah. So I tried to manage it. I limit myself.And the other things I've learned too, and this was earlier on, I used to talk much more about positions. But then I found that was a negative to do that because then people start to think of you as the guy for that position and then they want to come and ask you everything, every twist and turn. You got to be the guy who narrates it for people. And again, it may affect me in ways I don't really appreciate, forced me to dig in on a name that otherwise if all these people didn't know I owned it, they'd be gone or whatever.So I've limited that as well. I have discussed some names, times, but I don't give people the running commentary of what I'm doing or any of that anymore. So there are ways to manage it. Yeah.Joel Bowman:If they want the running commentary of what you're doing, they can follow your blog and I'll give you a plug, Chris, at woodlockhousefamilycapital.com for our listeners who want to find out more about your work.Chris Mayer:There you go. Thank you. You Google that and you'll find it. I write an occasional blog and then my Twitter which I do occasionally. The other annoying thing about Twitter is I keep getting these impostor accounts.Joel Bowman:Oh, really?Chris Mayer:It's crazy.Joel Bowman:Do you have the real Chris Mayer or something like that? What's your handle so people can avoid those?Chris Mayer:No, I tried Twitter. I tried to get verified a couple of times and they keep rejecting me. I think I'm just not quite famous enough or something.Joel Bowman:Oh, okay.Chris Mayer:But it's terrible because people will come up with a Twitter page, it looks exactly like mine. My handle is chriswmayer. They'll change it by some minor way. It'd be chrisi or they have two i's in or an x or something like that. But they make the page otherwise look exactly like mine and they tweet the same thing. And then they use it to sell some garbage.Most of the time, I've caught them pretty early and they don't have very many followers. But there was one that I just found, people were telling me about, has more followers than my real account. It's pretty embarrassing.Joel Bowman:Wow. Well, maybe you'll get the Fatal Conceits podcast bump and that will get you up to blue check status.Chris Mayer:There you go. That's it. I need that blue checkmark. I mean, there are other investors I know, they have blue checkmarks. And they're not particularly any more famous than I am. I mean, within investing, they're known, but they're not really that well known outside that world and they have blue checkmark. So I don't know what they did.Joel Bowman:Well, we'll probably have a whole other discussion on just the elitism that goes on within the new communication technology platforms. But one, you're talking about Twitter being a one-way relationship for you then and it reminded me of one quote of Postman's, which I wanted to get in. And this is another one of the questions that he routinely asks in order to frame the discussion you see. It's constantly going on in his own head. And it's as simple as, am I using this technology or is it using me? I think that cuts to the heart of the matter.Chris Mayer:I like that one. That's really good. That's really, really good.Joel Bowman:Right.Chris Mayer:Yeah. Yeah, the irony is I'll put that on Twitter.Joel Bowman:But in a one-way relationship.Chris Mayer:There you go.Joel Bowman:All right, Chris, that's probably a pretty good place to leave it for this one, mate. Thank you as always for sharing your insights. You've recommended so many good books to me over the years...Chris Mayer:Well, that's good. I'm glad you like Postman and, clearly, you've read quite a bit of stuff because you were spot on the whole time. Yeah.Joel Bowman:I'll put a link to a few of his books underneath because hopefully our listeners can get something out of them as well.Chris Mayer:And another one, Technopoly, I think it is. Those are the two that I would really recommend. Very good. And then after that, you can find your way to his other books as you're interested in different topics.[Ed. Note: Find these two books here…Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show BusinessTechnopoly: The Surrender of Culture to TechnologyJoel Bowman:Perfect. Chris Mayer, Woodlock House Family Capital fund, check it out. And chriswmayer, don't be taken in by the impostors on Twitter. And for our listeners, please head over to our Substack, which is at bonnerprivateresearch.substack.com, where you can find plenty more material, including conversations just like this one. That's all. Catch you next week.Thank you for reading Bonner Private Research. This post is public, so feel free to share it with media elites and talking heads alike... This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit bonnerprivateresearch.substack.com/subscribe

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  Today's guest Dr. Daniel Keown is an author (The Uncharted Body and The Spark In The Machine), licensed acupuncturist, and a registered medical doctor (trained and specialising in emergency medicine). In this fascinating conversation, Tahnee and Daniel discuss the problem with western medicine (and its lack of predictive power), the subtlety of acupuncture, Qi in the body, The TCM Channel system (Jing Luo), Fascia, understanding how the body works, and the all-pervading spark that is electricity.   Daniel's brilliant mind and extensive education allows him to illuminate the distinctions and integral components of traditional Chinese medicine and western allopathic medicine with a simplicity that seems effortless. This conversation is a beautifully comprehensive scope into the organising life force of the body (Qi) and the Jing Luo channel system that allows us to reimagine the body as a landscape with folds, creases, hollows, and structures, all connected by a system of energetic intelligence.    "Those guys who wrote all those classics must be like, 'Oh, could we have made it any more simple?' They must be thinking. 'We literally said, it's like water. Over and over again, Qi is like water'. And now everyone's like, 'Oh, what's it like?' It's like water. What does water do? Water goes from high pressure to low pressure; it flows in a current in channels and generates energy as it moves. But the only thing I would say, is it's not water, it's electricity".    - Dr. Daniel Keown     Tahnee and Dan discuss: Qi is Spirit. The Triple Burner. Movement and electricity. Pregnancy and Jing essence. How Qi operates in the organs. The TCM channel system (Jing Luo). Hypertension and low blood volume. The Lymphatic system and Gaul bladder. How Qi, Jing and Shen operate in the body. The predictive power of traditional Chinese medicine. The subtleness of acupuncture in emergency medicine. Why movement is so important to the flow of Qi in the body. The damaging effects of Western pharmaceuticals on the body.    Who is Daniel Keown? Dr. Daniel Keown MD MCEM Lic Ac became interested in Chinese medicine when hearing from his octogenarian grandmother about her traveling around China. In 1998 he qualified in medicine from Manchester University, England, and then obtained a degree in Acupuncture from The College of Integrated Chinese Medicine in 2008. He continues to practice Western medicine having passed the membership exams of the College of Emergency Medicine (MCEM) in 2014. His enduring aim is to re-establish acupuncture and Qi at the forefront of medicine in the West. To this aim, he published The Spark In The Machine in 2014, which shows how the principles of Chinese medicine can be fully explained with a deeper understanding of how the human body works, an understanding that necessitates a semi-mystical force at work ie Qi. He lives in Kent, England, with his wife and two children, and still searches for the elusive perfect wave.   CLICK HERE TO LISTEN ON APPLE PODCAST    Resources: Dr. Daniel's website The House Of God book. The Uncharted Body- Dr. Daniel Keown The Spark In The Machine- Dr. Daniel Keown   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We'd also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or check us out on Stitcher, CastBox, iHeart RADIO:)! Plus we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee: (00:02) Yeah, I'm really excited to have you. I just wanted to give you a quick intro to what we do, so you have some context.   Tahnee: (00:08) So we have a Taoist tonic herb company here, my husband and I. My background is a little bit more... I've studied with someone called Mantak Chia, so I've done a fair bit of Taoist healing work. And we've both studied herbalism, but we have a lot of practitioners, a lot of people who are really interested in healing, listening to our podcast. It goes around the world. We've ranked in lots of countries, which is weird to us. But mostly our audience is in the Western countries, but we do have... Strangely, we're very popular sometimes in Korea and other places, which is very odd to me.   Tahnee: (00:44) But yeah. So, we tend to just talk about topics related to health and wellness through the lens of the Eastern medicine practice, but also open to all sorts of things.   Tahnee: (00:55) I'm also a Yin Yoga teacher, like I said, so I got introduced to your work a long time ago by my teacher. And yeah, so that's all that stuff around fascia and the more modern research around what might be going on in the body that starts to validate the Eastern model is really exciting to me.   Tahnee: (01:12) So that's the framework of what we do. We try to stay away from pathology. We're really interested in how people can take healing into their own hands. So that lens of education. But we do have a lot of practitioners, so I'm quite excited. I saw you've got some more courses coming up as well soon. So I'm excited to promote your work.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:33) Well. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Tahnee. What I didn't understand was how Qi operated in the organs. And so then I sat down and wrote The Uncharted Body. And when I started writing that book, I didn't actually know... Oh, wow. You've got it.   Tahnee: (01:49) We've got a couple of copies actually. We were going to do a giveaway. We've got a few of The Spark as well, but yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:55) Oh, great. Yeah.   Tahnee: (01:56) Hopefully to someone who will understand it. Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:59) Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. So that's what I'm turning into a course at the moment. Effectively, what I'm going to do is just turn that into animations.   Tahnee: (02:12) Mm. Yeah. The visualisations you do. Yeah, they're really good. And I remember years ago, you had some Vimeo videos as well that were addressing Qi and a few things.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (02:22) Yeah.   Tahnee: (02:23) This is probably five or six years ago from memory.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (02:27) Yeah.   Tahnee: (02:27) Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (02:28) Yeah. That's right. Yeah. They're all still valid those videos, but I think what's happened is I've got much more sophisticated in my understanding of what's going on. So especially with regard to how simple it is, it's all very simple. That's one of the things I try and impress upon people. I mean, that book you just picked up, effectively, that takes you beyond university PhD level embryology.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (03:00) I bumped into an anatomy professor and I was talking about the coelomic epithelium, which forms the [inaudible 00:03:07] channel. And he'd never had a conversation like that with anyone ever before. And he was like, "Well, I'll have to actually check some of this stuff."   Dr. Daniel Keown: (03:17) So, even though that book looks dense and it looks thick, that is a complete anatomy, embryology, physiology, and medicine book. So it is actually not as onerous as it seems, because if you can understand that book, you basically understand medicine at a level that's beyond Western medicine at the moment.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (03:41) And the main thing is, it's just a translation. It didn't come out of my brain. The translation came out of my brain, but it's a translation of Chinese medicine into a form that the Western mind can appreciate and understand.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (03:57) And the key thing is that in order to really understand how the body operates, you've got to get into this concept of it's running on energy. It's definitely 100% without a shadow of doubt, running on energy. It's ridiculous to... To me, it's just like, how can anybody have thought it wasn't running on energy?   Tahnee: (04:18) Yeah. Especially when you are looking at healing and medicine. I've actually heard you say in another podcast, like a doctor just augmenting healing and the arrogance that we think that we're in any way in control, really, of the kind of healing mechanisms. It's really about removing those blockages to Qi and creating the capacity for that to just do the magic.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (04:43) Yeah.   Tahnee: (04:44) Yeah. It's something we've really missed in [crosstalk 00:04:46].   Dr. Daniel Keown: (04:46) The body wants to be well. Everyone's body wants to be well. There's nobody out there... Well actually, there's a few. Because people have perverse incentives to stay unwell, that's a societal issue. But generally people want to be well, and if you can bypass those societal issues, like sick benefits for instance, it is a perverse incentive to stay unwell. But yeah, people do generally want to be well. And so if you can just remind the body how to be well, then it tends to fall back into that pattern of wellness.   Tahnee: (05:30) Yeah. And I guess that's what I love about acupuncture, is it's just re-inviting that harmony and that movement toward wellness, instead of chopping out chunks or trying to take something away, or burn something or delete something in some way.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (05:48) One of my favourite books on medicine is called, The House Of God.   Tahnee: (05:54) I don't know that.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (05:54) Which is interesting. Because my first book was called, What God Forgot To Tell Surgeons. The House Of God is this classic book from the '60s, that was about a doctor who went through the medical system and realised how bankrupt it was. And he just about got through at the end. But he has these laws of the house of God, which are basically laws about how to operate within the Western medical system. And the first law is the art of medicine is doing as much nothing as possible.   Tahnee: (06:27) Mm.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (06:27) And I operate that law in emergency medicine. In emergency medicine, I try to do as much nothing as possible the entire time. In other words, you're like, "Whoa, we're dealing with this really delicate balance here, that's a bit effed up. And we don't want to suddenly move in there and mess things up even more, we want to be really gentle and just move things in the right direction." And generally, whenever I saw other people fuck up in emergency medicine, it's because they did that. They basically went in there with sledge hammers and fucked things up. But acupuncture is effectively as close as you could get to doing nothing, as you can get. I mean, literally it's like the very next thing to doing nothing.   Tahnee: (07:24) Well, it's so subtle.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (07:25) It's like I'm almost doing nothing, but I'm just going to do this tiny little thing. I'm going to take this tiny invisible needle, and it's actually so small I can barely even get it into your skin. That's a skill in itself, getting it through. And then I'm just going to move this energy. And then you're going to miraculously feel better. It's doing as much nothing as possible.   Tahnee: (07:48) I really like that. That's such a great way to describe it. Because it is, it's so subtle and yet it attunes to this really... Well I think, it doesn't stress the body or create more stress, so there's not that extra layer to deal with. I think about a lot of what happens in hospitals and it's like, first of all, the environment is quite challenging. And then, there can be a lot of intervention and that just creates more stress. And so the body's not really in a place to heal. It's, if anything in a survival response.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (08:23) The only Western medicine that works, and this is backed up by studies, is emergency medicine.   Tahnee: (08:30) Mm.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (08:30) None of the other Western medicine works. None of it works. If you actually look at the evidence to show Western medicine works, there's only evidence to show 15% of Western medicine works. From the study, this was a letter in the BMJ years ago, I think 15% of medicine, there's good evidence to show it works. 8% of medicine there's actually evidence to show it does harm. And the rest of it, there's no evidence either way. All of the surgery, there's no evidence to show it works. Yeah? And basically, because you can't do the studies. There's evidence to show it works.   Tahnee: (09:10) Don't chop that person, but do chop that person. Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (09:17) There's not the evidence that you would... They certainly use to discredit alternative medicine. There's certainly nowhere near that level of evidence to show it works. And when they do do studies into, for instance, surgery, where they can do studies, they are often very surprising. They show that placebo surgery is as efficacious as surgery. And so, the emperor has no clothes, as far as I'm concerned. However, emergency medicine, I'm an emergency doctor, still am, want to go back into it one day, I'm not going to argue with anyone who wants to say that emergency medicine works. It does work in my opinion. But when doctors go on strike, mortality drops every single time.   Tahnee: (09:59) Interesting.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (10:00) [crosstalk 00:10:00] going. Yeah. Yeah. It always drops. And that's because almost all of Western medicine, like the non-emergency stuff doesn't work.   Tahnee: (10:12) My husband and I always say that though. We're grateful it exists for car accidents and even broken bones and things. It's great to be able to go somewhere and have that treatment. But yeah, for chronic stuff, all the things we're seeing, and that's really the stuff we get, is a lot of people that have been through Western medicine and they're so disillusioned, they've been, basically... And it's things like autoimmune conditions, cancers, genetic stuff, these kind of long term chronic things that we don't have a system or a model in Western medicine that addresses it.   Tahnee: (10:46) And I've heard you speak to this, the sort of mind, body, spirit aspect, like that Jing, Qi, Shen, which is something we talk about so much in our work. And it just is seeing completely from the Western model. It's like, "Oh, cool. You've got a tumour. We can cut it out or we can radiate you or chemo you. But that's pretty much it."   Dr. Daniel Keown: (11:06) Yeah.   Tahnee: (11:06) It's like, well why does this person have this thing? It's not like it's dropped in from out of space or something. Where did it come from? So I think that's a really interesting topic, and I don't hear it addressed a lot. I guess there's pockets in Western medicine where people are interested in it, but not so much in large.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (11:27) Well, the fundamental problem with Western medicine, aside from emergency medicine, which is great and works. And I'll extrapolate that into any specialty that effectively does emergency. So emergency obstetrics is great. Emergency eye surgery is great. The reason I think that emergency Western medicine is so good, because effectively in an emergency you get down to a reductionist level of, "My eye is about to lose all sight because there's been a bleed in the back of my eye," for instance. "And if I get a laser in there and cauterise the blood vessel that's bleeding, it will stop bleeding." Yeah? "And that will possibly save my eye." Now, why is that eye bleeding? Western medicine is very useless at, because that's a much more holistic question. But when it comes down to pure reductionism, it works very well, Western medicine.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (12:21) And the fundamental problem at the core of the Western medical model, is there's no concept of Qi, there's no concept of spirit, which... Qi and spirit are the same thing, by the way, I don't know if you know that. But the origin of-   Tahnee: (12:35) You talk about it in your book.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (12:38) Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.   Tahnee: (12:41) Well, I'd love if you could drill down on that a bit, because Qi was always... You Google it I guess, and people would get Qi is energy. And I think that's such a vague definition for people.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (12:53) Yeah.   Tahnee: (12:54) Do you have a working definition at the moment, that you are really loving? Or is there something...   Dr. Daniel Keown: (13:00) Yeah, I would call Qi the organising force of the body, best seen in the embryo. That's my working definition when it comes to sticking needles into people. It's kind of like a semi-mystical God-like quality. It's the life force, it's the same as the force in Star Wars.   Tahnee: (13:21) We use that analogy a lot too. The force. I just want to stop on that quickly. So when you say it's best seen in the embryo, because this is something I think is a really interesting and important thing, is like, embryologically we're unfolding along the lines of this blueprint, which is quite magical really, when you think about the fact that a sperm and egg become a baby, becomes a human. How does that know how to be that? And so that's the Qi factor, is the capacity to know what to become. Are you agreeing with me?   Dr. Daniel Keown: (14:02) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's reasonable. I don't see the Qi as having... It's able to take the instructions in the genetic code, and-   Tahnee: (14:16) So do you see that coming from Jing? Or are you...   Dr. Daniel Keown: (14:19) Yeah, it's more Jing. Yeah.   Tahnee: (14:20) Yeah. Okay.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (14:21) Yeah. Yeah. What you become is more Jing, definitely. So, the Qi is the energy that organises things.   Tahnee: (14:28) The activating force to decode that Jing blueprint, I suppose.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (14:35) Yeah, that's right. Yeah.   Tahnee: (14:36) Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (14:37) Yeah. And yeah, I mean, that's the thing, you've got to have Qi, Jing and Shen, in order for a person to exist. You can't have Qi without Jing and Shen, and you can't have Shen without Jing and Qi. You've got to have all three of those things to create a person. So, it's kind of difficult to describe one without the other two. Equally, Qi I see, it's the energy, it's the organising force, the organising energy that takes the Jing, the blueprint, and manifests that into matter. So, one of the best descriptions I heard was from Twitter. [crosstalk 00:15:22].   Tahnee: (15:22) The wise place of Twitter.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (15:24) Exactly, yeah. It's like the group consciousness, isn't it?   Tahnee: (15:30) The best and the worst of humanity.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (15:34) And somebody's came back and said, "Qi is the..." Now, I've got to get this right. And I didn't get it right last time either.   Tahnee: (15:45) Oh, it's high pressures. Deep breath.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (15:50) "It's the energy by which matter manifests into form." I haven't quite got this right. He put it so brilliantly and I haven't quite got it right. But basically, what he was saying is that matter... Life is a great example. You start off with a single cell and then suddenly, as you're going to find out, nine months later, and it's not even months, even by 12 weeks...   Tahnee: (16:15) I'm 22 weeks. And there's a human in there.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (16:19) Well, there we are.   Tahnee: (16:19) Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (16:20) Well, basically, yeah. Yeah. Basically, a sperm and an egg combined, and then bang, you have a cell. And then somehow, magically over the next 12 to 22 weeks, that cell just multiplied, multiplied and made a baby. And it was the thing that allowed it to make that baby was organisation, and that force was Qi, that's what Qi is. But it had to have the Jing of the genetic code, in order to have the instruction manual to make the baby. And if it had a different genetic instruction manual it would make a baby mouse or baby [inaudible 00:17:00] or a baby whale or something like that.   Tahnee: (17:02) It's still a possibility. We never know. Talk to me in a few months.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (17:06) That would be pretty amazing. It's the same thing. It's the same Qi in a whale embryo as in a... I really see it like some kind of electricity. Qi's an analagist to electricity, but it's a life force electricity.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (17:25) I mean, it's interesting, in Star Wars, when the emperor tries to kill Luke Skywalker, it's electricity that comes out. I'm not saying Star Wars is [inaudible 00:17:37] Chinese medicine is based, I'm saying that Star Wars was stolen from a Japanese film, I think it was, that was based on-   Tahnee: (17:47) Yeah. Chinese medicine structure.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (17:48) Yeah, exactly.   Tahnee: (17:50) Yeah. The Taoist worldview.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (17:51) Yeah.   Tahnee: (17:52) Yeah. Because I think that's the idea... You speak about it in Spark, I'm pretty sure. I don't know. There's a man called Dr. Motoyama who my teachers are very interested in, and he was trying to measure Qi. And what he found was, it was a very, very low current, hard to measure electricity. And he got poo pooed by everybody because he had to invent a machine that was subtle enough to actually detect this stuff. And his work has not been widely accepted, but it's interesting because he's got this machine that actually measures all the meridians, and measures the flow of Qi in the body. And you speak about the DC current and AC current, and the sense that the Qi or the sort of regenerative force in the body is this more consistent flow. Is there any detail you have on that? Or is it still a bit out there?   Dr. Daniel Keown: (18:48) Yeah. No. But firstly, I'd never used the word meridians. I always say channels. Yeah. Yeah.   Tahnee: (18:55) Channels. I know. And I've been told off about that a thousand times. It doesn't actually translate.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (19:00) Yes. Exactly. That's the prime issue. It's a poor translation. So it's a Jing Luo, which is the channel network.   Tahnee: (19:12) And also, I think I always love the poetry of the Taoist...   Dr. Daniel Keown: (19:16) One second. There's some super bass going on in the background with my kids.   Tahnee: (19:22) I love it. I actually can't hear it.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (19:25) Oh, can you not hear it?   Tahnee: (19:25) No.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (19:25) Okay, fine.   Tahnee: (19:27) You're probably vibrating, but it's not coming through.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (19:32) Yeah. It's like, they're clearly playing some game with explosions. Okay. So yeah. So it's really important to get rid of... Oh, that's really loud. It's annoying me. Give me one second.   Tahnee: (19:43) Yeah. Go. Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (19:44) Hey, kids.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (20:07) Yeah. So channels. So the words were Jing Luo, and they were channels. In fact, they translate perfectly. If you look at the characters, I was just doing a video today about this. Because I keep saying this over and over and over again, and it never seems to get through. Well, it gets through, but very slowly. Because these things are [inaudible 00:20:27]. And so, it's clearly the connective tissue network, that's what they're describing. Fascia. And the best translation is channel. So this is really important, because you can have a conversation with lay people or especially doctors that goes like this. "Oh, well there's Qi in the body. It's like an energy, that's a kind of electricity that flows through the body and it flows through meridians." "What's a Meridian?" "Well, it's structures in the body that allow Qi to flow." "Okay. Has anyone ever shown these meridians?" "No." Kind of thing. Yeah?   Tahnee: (21:09) Mm.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (21:09) And you can have this conversation with any doctor. The conversation can go very differently. It can go something like this. And bear in mind, meridians is a terrible translation. It's not a good translation. It's not a valid translation of Jing Luo.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (21:25) And it goes something like this. "Well, the body runs on energy, electricity. You can see it for instance in the heart. But actually, every cell, every organ, every muscle runs on electricity, and that electricity has got information attached to it. And that's what Qi is." And they go, "Okay. So, how does this flow around the body?" "Well, it flows in channels in the body." And it's like, "Channels in the body? I don't know of any channels in the body." "Well, no, there's loads of channels in the body. Every time a surgeon operates, he basically moves through channels. And for instance, you've got the peritoneal channel. It's called a peritoneal cavity, but it's actually a channel in the body and that's the liver channel." "Oh. No, surely there's nothing flow..." And the doctor will say, "There's nothing flowing in that peritoneal cavity in the channel." "Yeah. There is. There's fluid flowing in the peritoneal channel. In fact, every single potential space in your body, and there's loads of them, there's an infinite number of them, has fluid flowing in them. And that fluid is flowing and that's a channel."   Dr. Daniel Keown: (22:23) And then, that conversation ends at that point. Their scepticism just evaporates because there's nowhere for them to go. That's why it's so important. That's why language is so important.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (22:36) And so, that's why I hate the word Meridian. For two reasons. Firstly, it's just an awful translation that the Jing Luo didn't have a neat translation to put it into for [inaudible 00:22:49]. So he put it into this word because someone said, "Oh, sounds a bit like that." And secondly, because it's such a bad translation, then you just go down this blind alley. Where basically, you are digging yourself a hole to put yourself into when you say that word. So that's why.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (23:12) So, to go back to your original question. Sorry, you touched a nerve there.   Tahnee: (23:17) No. Look, I really appreciate it. And I always think from the Taoist perspective of, everything is so poetic, and the body as landscapes and structures. And it's like, of course it's a channel or like a river, or even like the English Channel. It's a natural body, instead of this like an arbitrary kind of human construct of a Meridian or a lay line or something. So yeah, I totally hear you on that. And I think-   Dr. Daniel Keown: (23:43) Well, that's exactly it. Because a Meridian is a human construct.   Tahnee: (23:46) Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (23:47) It's exactly that.   Tahnee: (23:48) And it doesn't actually mirror what's happening. And I think this idea...   Dr. Daniel Keown: (23:52) No. It's underground rivers. The character for Jing is drawn as underground rivers, carrying a mystical substance, which is obviously Qi. And it's like, okay. Well, yeah. I mean, nobody's going to dispute that on the earth there's underground rivers. There's 100% guaranteed, there's one-   Tahnee: (24:13) Keeping us alive. Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (24:16) [crosstalk 00:24:16]. And then it's like, okay, that's what the character's actually drawn as. It's drawn as underground rivers, which are enveloped by... Well, the character is sea, which people have translated as silk. But actually, it is very clear that it's not necessarily silk. It can be any material. In other words, it's fascia. So it's fascia carrying underground rivers. That's what Jing translates as. And Luo translates as a collagenous net.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (24:45) Now, where did, where did the M word come from in that? If you're going to translate it into one word, it's channels. But even channels doesn't really do that justice.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (24:58) And so, the key thing to understand about the Western and Eastern appreciation of the body, is the west is really obsessed with things. We're always obsessed with things in the west. It's fine. I quite like having a cup for you to drink your cup of tea out of.   Tahnee: (25:21) Useful, yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (25:22) But the cup is only useful because of the space within it. And so, the east is more thinking about the space within things. And the west is saying, "Ah." So the west was always like, "Where are these meridians?" And obviously-   Tahnee: (25:37) "Why can't I cut them out of a dead body?"   Dr. Daniel Keown: (25:40) Yeah. And it's like, "No, it's channels. It's spaces within the body." And so, within that space, travels this organising force that enables your body to stay connected. It has to stay connected. All the cells have to stay connected, otherwise you get things like cancer developing. Worst case scenario it's cancer, best case scenario, the cells just die if they're not connected anymore. And that energy that's travelling in the channels is basically a form of electricity. And it can be measured and it can be seen as well. There was a guy called Becker who measured it in amphibians, who have very powerful-   Tahnee: (26:24) [inaudible 00:26:24] frog head guy.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (26:26) Ah. Yeah, close. That was Spemann. That was a German embryologist. He didn't actually measure the currents, but he discovered that you can have parts of the embryo that control growth.   Tahnee: (26:41) Mm.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (26:43) Yeah.   Tahnee: (26:44) So these smaller animals, because you talk about this in Spark, the lower animals. But you talk about how that divergence to what a bigger brain we lose that regenerative capacity, the smaller, less developed animals.   Tahnee: (27:00) I remember as a kid, this is a horrible story, but I used to pull the tail off lizards and then keep them as pets. Because the tail would grow back. I thought it was really cool. Those poor lizards.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (27:12) It is cool.   Tahnee: (27:13) Yeah. It is really cool. And they always grew back slightly different.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (27:16) Do they bleed when you pull them off?   Tahnee: (27:19) No. They wriggled a lot though. I don't think they were happy. But yeah, say if they were-   Dr. Daniel Keown: (27:24) [crosstalk 00:27:24]. So hang on. You pulled them... I know this is displaying your inner psychopath.   Tahnee: (27:24) I know. Hopefully my inner scientist and not my inner psychopath. Yeah. I would have been maybe six or seven. But my house had a really big white wall. It was really hot and we'd always get these little lizards. I don't even know the species, but they were quite tiny. And if you stressed them or held their tails, they would try and run away and drop their tail as a survival mechanism.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (27:57) So you didn't pull them off. You basically just-   Tahnee: (27:59) Well yeah, they let them go, but I would hold them and-   Dr. Daniel Keown: (28:02) You encouraged them.   Tahnee: (28:06) I've got to say, I'm sounding like a psychopath. And then we would like look after them and try and keep them alive whilst they grew back.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (28:13) And they regrew.   Tahnee: (28:14) Yeah. So, say they were brown originally, they might grow back a funny lighter brown colour or something. And there'd be a little seam. It was always a little bit wonky.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (28:27) Yeah.   Tahnee: (28:27) But yeah. It was like, "Wow. This is cool." And so, when I read your book about how humans can grow back fingertips and things when they're babies. And I was like, "Oh, great." Haven't tried on my child.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (28:40) Yeah.   Tahnee: (28:40) Chopping off fingers or anything. But it is such an interesting... I think about Qigong and all of these practises that are designed to help us cultivate Qi. My teacher's 76 and he still looks about 50. He's just had children. He's got many children now. He had a kid a couple years ago. He's really defying what we would term ageing. And you can see, well, this practise is doing something to him where he's actually still holding onto that regenerative capacity for Qi.   Tahnee: (29:11) So I think it's a really interesting and under acknowledged area, I suppose, in our culture. Especially with health and healing, I just think if it's as simple as breathing practises, meditating, eating well, looking after ourselves mentally, why aren't we encouraging this more as a baseline human practice? So, yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (29:33) Yeah. Well, it's because there's not-   Tahnee: (29:38) Lots of shit going down.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (29:39) Yeah. It's difficult to mass produce that and profit from it effectively. It's not that there's no profit in it, there's definitely profit in it, but it's difficult to mass produce that and make profit from it. That's why, I think.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (30:01) Because yeah, that's kind of my mission at the moment actually, is to create a model of acupuncture that can be effectively mass produced, and people can practise... My ambition at the moment is to raise... So it has taken me 20 years to get to a point where basically, pretty much everyone I treat at the moment gets better. Which I find astounding. I'm amazed by that. Because as a Western doctor, I see people and I'm just like... If I didn't understand what I was doing, then I'd be like, that's just beyond medical comprehension. But it isn't, because basically you understand what Qi is. But it's taken me 20 years to get there.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (30:52) And my ambition is that I can create a teaching programme effectively, that can get you there in five years.   Tahnee: (30:59) Yeah. Fast-track that.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (31:03) And I would say where I am is generally where it takes you to get, if you're good, 40 years to get to. So in China, they say you're not mature until you're about 65. And I reckon I probably got there at age 47. But that's just because I've spent my entire life in medicine, effectively. And I've written a couple of books on it, and I've spent a lot of time studying. And I've had the advantage of a lot of information and...   Dr. Daniel Keown: (31:33) Yeah. But if we can get people there in five years, so if you're 20, you can get there ar 25, you can get to the point where it took me 15 years to get to, and then you've got another 40 years, 50 years, 60 years of practice, of getting people well. So that could be really revolutionary, in terms of where medicine goes. And that's my ambition at the moment.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (31:58) Because this stuff is so simple. It's unbelievably simple. My criteria for the videos I'm producing at the moment, is I'm going to show them to my 10 year old son. And if he doesn't understand them, then I'm like, that's-   Tahnee: (32:13) You're not doing your job.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (32:14) Yeah.   Tahnee: (32:15) Mm.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (32:15) Yeah. The whole thing's just so crazily simple. Even the function of the liver and stuff, it's just so simple. It dredges, drains and regulates. If you understand what those three words are, and bear in mind, I had to look up the word dredge to check exactly what it meant. And then I was like, "Holy shit. That's exactly what the liver's doing. It's dredging." It's dredging, to clear a waterway, especially of debris. That's what the definition is.   Tahnee: (32:47) Mm. They do it to... What are they called? Bays where boats go.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (32:53) Yeah.   Tahnee: (32:53) Yes.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (32:54) Yeah. That's it. And that's what the liver... The liver basically clears all the food that comes out of your digestive system.   Tahnee: (33:00) So are you talking about this... Because I had an acupuncturist who's unfortunately moved, but he was probably the first person who I started to drop in on how simple... I think before that it always seemed a little bit complicated and mysterious. And he got me looking into [inaudible 00:33:19] because he said the Chinese model's a little bit messed up. I think you call it cookbook acupuncture, which I really like. He's like, "There's a recipe, da, da, da." It's like, "No, you go straight to the [inaudible 00:33:32]. Symptoms are like a guidepost, but you can't always trust what the person's saying, da da, da."   Tahnee: (33:40) But I guess I often, coming from having learned a lot of this stuff, the kind of rote learn, like multiple choice, da, da, da, that sort of way of, the liver governs wood and it's spring. I've learned to think of it more like, "Okay, the liver, it's not the liver per se, but it's like the energy of every cell operating on that liver Qi level is the ability of the cell to dredge itself. The ability of..." Is this making sense? I hope this-   Dr. Daniel Keown: (34:14) It definitely works in that kind of aspect as well. Every cell within your body has respires and creates proteins, which is a liver function. Respiration is a lung function [crosstalk 00:34:28]-   Tahnee: (34:28) Lung function, yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (34:30) So it's got grey in the nucleus, which is also like the heart as well. And it's got little vesicles which are like stomachs, and it's got a membrane, which is like skin. So it is fractal in nature, the body. The heart will also effectively do functions of the liver as well, which is why if you get heart damage, some of the enzymes that are released are liver enzymes. And in the olden days, when I was a junior doctor, they used to check they didn't have something called troponins. And they used to do enzymes that were also produced by the liver. And there would be a bit of confusion about, has this person maybe just got a liver problem or is it a heart problem?   Dr. Daniel Keown: (35:12) So all of the cells within your body are kind of a microcosm of your body. Equally however, there are definitely six planes, six confirmations within your body that are the six systems I talk about in The Uncharted Body that are clear... In terms of practical medicine, they are as clear as the liver is within Western medicine, as the heart is within medicines. These six divisions are-   Tahnee: (35:44) So the [inaudible 00:35:45] Yang and all Tao Yin and all that sort of stuff.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (35:48) Yeah. That's it. And you can definitely think about them as... When you say about the liver, and you started to get, with all due respect, a little bit airy fairy about it-   Tahnee: (36:00) Yeah. Go for it.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (36:04) And that's kind of true. But actually the liver, the way to see it is the liver is like the biggest concentration of energy and cellular material within this division called [inaudible 00:36:17], this division has concentrated its energy and power, certainly in the lower aspect, within the liver, to perform this function that it has to perform within the body. But the layer is performing that function. And so, all the cells within that layer, which also include the peritoneal channel and also part of the venous system as well, will be performing that same function as well. It's just the body has concentrated that power within the liver itself, in the same way that in the United Kingdom, in a way everyone is performing a political system and even political function, and even within our town there'd be politicians of sorts, minor politicians. But the country has concentrated that political system within Westminster. Like burn the fuckers down, as far as I'm concerned.   Tahnee: (37:20) Don't burn your liver down.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (37:21) As long as no one's to blame. But yeah. And in the same way... I'm trying to think of another system that's not-   Tahnee: (37:33) Well, you were speaking on your blog about COVID and how you are seeing that sort of... I think it was the Tao Yin level, I could be wrong. It was the lung and spleen level.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (37:45) Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So COVID affects the lungs and pancreas. And pancreas is part of-   Tahnee: (37:53) Yes. Pancreas. You're calling the spleen.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (37:56) Pancreas, yeah.   Tahnee: (37:57) Yep.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (37:59) Yeah. So, this is the amazing thing about this six division model of the body. So one of the big problems, Western medicine's got no predictive power. For me as a scientist, that's a massive problem. If you've got a scientific model or theory that has zero predictive power, that model's bunk. It's useless.   Tahnee: (38:15) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Dr. Daniel Keown: (38:15) Yeah? It's absolutely useless. And Western medicine does not have a model of how the body works, in my opinion. It's got little parts that work in isolation, but in the big picture, it doesn't have a model. In other words, it's not holistic. It cannot explain really how health is maintained. It just says, if you look at the WHO definition of health, it's just an absence of disease.   Tahnee: (38:40) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Dr. Daniel Keown: (38:41) I would say, no. Health is a smooth flow of Qi, effectively. You also need good Jing, and good Shen as well. But effectively, presuming your Jing, in other words, the body you were born with, and your Shen, in other words, your spirit and your soul, they're in good shape, then health is a smooth flow of Qi. If you've got a smooth flow of Qi, you'll have health. And then you can define what Qi is. But in Western medicine there's no model whatsoever of... And that's a big problem.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (39:13) Now within the six divisions, that has predictive power. So if you get a disease process occurring within one aspect of this division, it will also affect the other aspects of that division as well. So within COVID, COVID is a disease that really seems to affect the lung, especially. So then you say, "Okay, that's also going to affect everything else within Tao Yin, which is pancreas, spleen." I bet coronavirus will accumulate in the spleen. It's well known to cause diarrhoea. That's part of Tao Yin. And I bet you it's going to cause thyroid problems as well, long term. Things like Hashimoto's.   Tahnee: (39:53) Which is part of the lung...   Dr. Daniel Keown: (39:56) It's 100% part of the lung. Yeah.   Tahnee: (39:58) Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (39:58) It's the messenger of the lung.   Tahnee: (40:00) And so, what I was being taught by this acupuncturist before he abandoned me, was that if that is allowed to stay in the body, that pathogenic factor, it will descend down. That's where you get the heart fire and these kind of problems, I guess, with COVID that are... When it actually gets really bad in people. Is that an accurate... I'm not going to say-   Dr. Daniel Keown: (40:21) Yeah.   Tahnee: (40:23) [crosstalk 00:40:23] Across the pathology.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (40:24) Yeah. The heart.   Tahnee: (40:26) Because the heart is the most, deepest layer of these six layers. So if it's getting there, it's bad.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (40:35) As befits the body, it's complex.   Tahnee: (40:44) Okay.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (40:44) This is what it's like to have to keep things simple. Yeah. Well you have to keep things simple. This is why I'm always like, "Look, let's just keep things as simple as possible." Because it fucking gets complicated. Guaranteed. Because every single person is different. So you have to keep this thing really simple. But yeah, the six divisions, bizarrely, the deepest level is Xue Yin, which is liver and peritoneum. However, the heart is also the emperor and is protected by everything. So it's the equivalent of the king on the chess board. Apparently fairly weak, but everything has to move around it to protect the king. You shouldn't ever really move the king in chess if you can get away with it.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (41:24) So it's the same. In a way, the heart as the emperor is the deepest, but in another way, it isn't. Within the six divisions, it's actually not the deepest. And this, I'm still trying to get my head around exactly what that means.   Tahnee: (41:43) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Dr. Daniel Keown: (41:44) Yeah. If it sounds a bit confusing it's because it [crosstalk 00:41:50]. I mean, this is really simple medicine compared to Western medicine, but we're still dealing with an organism that's unbelievably complex. And the body is just unbelievably complex.   Tahnee: (42:05) Well, like you said, with pathology too, you're treating individuals who are showing up with their own constitutional patterns, and all the unknown factors of what a human gets up to day-to-day.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (42:18) Yeah.   Tahnee: (42:18) Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (42:19) Exactly. They pop up into your clinic after 47 years of existence, and just go, "I've got pain here." Somehow unravel that 47 years of existence and find out what's causing that pain there. And that's when you just have to go, "Man, I can't have too much information at this point because it's going to really fry my brain." So, you just have to kind of keep things as simple as possible.   Tahnee: (42:49) And you're listening to the pulse. You're kind of working through on that level. I had a guy the other day on the podcast, who's an acupuncturist. And he said something that I thought was really interesting. He said, "When I needle stomach 34, I don't actually think I'm needling the organ." And I was like, "Well, what do you think you're doing?" And he sort of... I didn't feel like we got anywhere with the answer. And I'm like, this is interesting that someone who practises this medicine doesn't really believe... And I'm not trying to poo poo him.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (43:23) I completely disagree. When I needle stomach 36...   Tahnee: (43:28) That's the one, yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (43:30) I've never needled stomach 34.   Tahnee: (43:32) No, it was 36. I'm pregnant and [inaudible 00:43:34].   Dr. Daniel Keown: (43:35) But that needle, the way I feel that needle going into a plane within the body, a tissue plane, like a fault line within the body that is then directly connecting to the entire gastrointestinal tracts and especially the stomach, but it's the entire... So no, for me, it's the opposite. When I needle these points, I'm like, this is connecting to that organ. As far as I'm concerned, there's no contradiction between Western and Eastern about how the body operates, apart from one important thing. And that is that Western medicine is a primitive model of the body, that's not particularly helpful and actually fits in underneath the Chinese medicinal model of the body, as a kind of useful adjunct in emergency situations. That actually, because it has no model of health, because it has no model of how the body operates, and because effectively, the way it's been organised is back to front.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (44:41) So, what Western medicine has done is, it didn't start off with a model of how the body operates, and instead has used a microscope to look closer and closer into the body, and then-   Tahnee: (44:53) Rebuild.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (44:54) [crosstalk 00:44:54] the body. Yeah. So, the equivalent I explain to people is, imagine if you didn't have an idea of the phylogenetic tree of life. Yeah? I don't know if you know what that means. It's like the idea that we all came from jellyfish and jellyfish... Which we did actually, thankfully from my [inaudible 00:45:11]. But there's another story behind that as well, actually, that I might tell you another time. But imagine instead of that phylogenetic tree of life, where we came from jellyfish and jellyfish then turned into... I don't know, molluscs and snails and whatever. And then they developed into vertebrates, and they developed into-   Tahnee: (45:32) Higher mammals and things, yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (45:34) Higher mammals. You've got it. Yeah. Imagine if you were just looking right at the top, and you saw all of these different animals, and you have no idea of the phylogenetic tree, which is the equivalent of embryology. And you started to categorise all those different animals according to what they did and how they behaved. And you went, "I'll tell you what. Why don't we put all flying creatures into the same bracket? Because they appear to all be behaving in the same way. So we'll put bats and birds and... What else flies? Flying squirrels. We'll put all of those. They're all flying animals, so they must be related. And everything walking on two legs must be related as well. So we'll put chimpanzees and humans and ostriches and..."   Tahnee: (46:20) Kangaroos.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (46:22) "Kangaroos. Yeah. They're all related as well. So they're all related. They're all related." That is what Western medicine's done with the body. It's basically taken all of these things and grouped them together, into systems that don't make embryological sense.   Tahnee: (46:37) Mm.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (46:37) And you really have to have a good grasp of medicine and the body to understand exactly what I'm talking about at this point. But that's what they've done.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (46:48) Now, what the six division model is, is an embryological model that builds from the bottom upwards. So, the original three divisions were endoderm, exoderm and mesoderm. Which, anyone who studied any medicine probably knows. And that's the end of their embryology. And what happens, the endoderm and the exoderm become Tae Yin and Tae Yang, which stay as consistent division or layers within the body. And the middle division, the mesoderm splits into four, and that forms then things like the heart, kidney and vascular system, the arterial system, which will become Shao Yin.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (47:27) Now, if you have this model of the body, you can make predictions about how each of these divisions are going to behave. And the fact that a pathogen or even a drug that affects one of the aspects of this division will affect all of the other aspects.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (47:43) So for instance, my favourite one is with hypertension is always a problem of Shao Yin. It's always a problem with a lack of blood effectively, to the body and the body then responds by increasing the pressures, as you would in any fluid system.   Tahnee: (47:59) Blood [crosstalk 00:48:00].   Dr. Daniel Keown: (48:00) Yeah, exactly. You would increase pressure. And so that's what hypertension is. It's the body that has perceived a lack of blood for whatever reasons. And therefore, that is always a problem with Shao Yin, of the heart, kidney, or the blood vessels themselves, the arterial system. And every single anti hypertensive known to man, with one exception, acts on that-   Tahnee: (48:22) On that level.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (48:23) On either the heart, the kidney or the blood vessels. And the same with COVID. So COVID has got a particular propensity for attacking the Tae Yin system, which is all about dampness and the phlegm. And that's why it attacks the pancreas, that's why it attacks the lung, that's why it gives you diarrhoea. And it will, like I said, it almost certainly is going to give you thyroid problems. And also it will have a propensity to hang around in the spleen, which is why hydroxychloroquine works so well as well.   Tahnee: (48:52) Mm-hmm (affirmative). And that's making me think around that Wei Qi level as well. If you're talking embryologically, that surface protective level, sort of this making sense that we're going to have this really deep... Because you were saying before, the liver is right in the middle there, it's that very, very centre of the egg, I suppose. Is that what you were talking about before? I'm just trying to build this puzzle out in my mind.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (49:28) Yeah, the six divisions though, I like to think... Yeah, yeah. In a way in the middle it's a bit like...   Tahnee: (49:38) Yeah, I know it's not accurate to say the middle, but I think it's Deadman's model. There's layers, like the surfboard layers, and they kind of...   Dr. Daniel Keown: (49:48) It's like Russian dolls.   Tahnee: (49:50) Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (49:51) So the skin in the Tai Yang, the skin is your outer layer of the Russian doll. And then right in the middle is your Xue Yin, your liver right in the middle. That innermost... Now, the interesting thing is, that obviously the inner and the outer have to connect. Yeah?   Tahnee: (50:10) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Dr. Daniel Keown: (50:11) Things have to always flow. Things always have to flow. And there is actually a connection between, effectively, your Xue Yin and your skin, and in women that's through your uterus and vagina.   Tahnee: (50:26) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Dr. Daniel Keown: (50:26) So when the sperm, it actually swims in through the skin, effectively through that little hole in your skin, called the vagina, and it swims into the uterus, which is actually in the peritoneal channel, which is Xue Yin.   Tahnee: (50:48) Mm.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (50:50) So, it is, you're right. The liver is your innermost layer. But connects to the outside, through the uterus. And then that connection is the rebirth of new life.   Tahnee: (51:04) And I guess, is that then pointing to that blood layer being... Because again, through my understanding of being a patient really is, being needled on that blood layer, it's very deep, quite painful. Because the liver's responsible for storing the blood and all of that sort of stuff, are we looking... Because I think about the uterus as well, the sea of blood, it's like this kind of idea of that deep substance of women being blood and for men, it's more Qi. So do you guys have a different connection between the Tae Yang?   Dr. Daniel Keown: (51:36) Yeah. Between Xue Yin and Tae Yang. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm just speaking...   Tahnee: (51:47) Theoretically?   Dr. Daniel Keown: (51:47) Yeah, because the interesting thing about our sperm is, it kind of effectively at an embryological level comes out of your Tae Yang, your kidneys, bladder.   Tahnee: (52:06) Well that's where the Jing element comes in, I guess. Yeah?   Dr. Daniel Keown: (52:12) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely a different kind of embryological process going on.   Tahnee: (52:19) Interesting. Children.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (52:23) Yeah. I was trying to work out what it is. Yeah.   Tahnee: (52:26) I want to jump back to electricity because we were talking about that when we got wonderfully distracted. But yeah, I think that's an interesting... It seems really logical to me that we're governed by this electric force, but it's not really that...   Dr. Daniel Keown: (52:42) One second.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (52:42) Kids. What's up? Right. Listen. Listen. Listen. Listen. Listen. Listen. Listen. It's simple, yeah. You can either stop crying and watch telly and enjoy yourself, or [inaudible 00:53:11] it's time for bed.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (53:25) Okay. Might just take a pause for a bit.   Tahnee: (53:29) Yeah, that's fine.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (53:31) Yeah. I'll just try and...   Tahnee: (53:33) That's my future.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (53:36) It's time for bed. Right, bedtime. Come on, bedtime. Well you have to stop crying immediately. Immediately. Okay. Now [inaudible 00:53:54]. Okay. Right. This is going back in the freezer because you're only allowed one. How come you have two? All right. Listen, listen. If you start crying again, it's fine, it'll be bedtime. Okay? So pull yourself together.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (54:20) Okay.   Tahnee: (54:29) We can make this very short.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (54:32) Negotiation. Yeah. It's always negotiation.   Tahnee: (54:38) Little ones.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (54:40) I'll just mute it because...   Tahnee: (54:43) Yeah, no stress.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (54:45) I'm just going... Yeah.   Tahnee: (54:46) Negotiate. Good luck.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (56:15) Yeah. Harry's my oldest. He's 11. And he's worked it out. He's basically worked out that, so long as he does what I ask him to do, which I like to think I'm fairly reasonable, he can do what he likes outside of that. Whereas Cora's a bit more likes her drama a little bit more.   Tahnee: (56:33) How old is your daughter?   Dr. Daniel Keown: (56:35) That was me saying basically you can have your drama, but then it's game over.   Tahnee: (56:40) Yeah. How old is your daughter?   Dr. Daniel Keown: (56:43) She's seven.   Tahnee: (56:44) Seven. Okay. Yeah. I have a five year old, so I'm gearing up for siblings.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (56:52) Five year old girl or boy?   Tahnee: (56:53) I have a girl. Yeah. She's got a tendency for theatrics sometimes as well. I think it's just kids. Yeah, I won't keep you too much longer because I know it's the witching hour with little kids. But yeah. If you're happy to jump back into the electricity conversation.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (57:14) Yeah, sure.   Tahnee: (57:14) And then we can start to wrap it up. Yeah.   Tahnee: (57:17) So yeah, I guess we got very pleasantly distracted, but I want to bring it back to the electricity conversation, because I think I've always... I guess, especially since discovering fascia and the research around [inaudible 00:57:32] electricity and all this stuff, I was like, "Okay, so this makes a lot of sense to me." I've always felt a bit like a glow stick. If I move it's like I light up. I don't know if that makes sense. But like cracking all of my bits makes me feel really alive. And so that made a lot of sense to me. And you speak about that in The Spark, around these electric currents. So if there's any elaboration you can give on that, or how you see that.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (57:56) Yeah. This all links into the triple burner and fascia, and this concept of... So, collagen is something like 30% of our body protein.   Tahnee: (58:07) Mm. Really high.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (58:10) And then the water within our body is 60% of our body, of which... No, I think it's higher than 60%. I haven't checked this recently, but something like 40%.   Tahnee: (58:19) [inaudible 00:58:19].   Dr. Daniel Keown: (58:19) Yeah. And something like 40% of your body water is extracellular. Yeah? So in other words, 30% of your body protein is collagen, which is extracellular, and 40% of your body water is extracellular. And Western medicine just pretends that those two things don't exist. There's no organ for either of them. There's no concept of when you replace fluids in the body, it's really blood that you're trying to replace when you give intravascular. So effectively, Chinese medicine goes, "No, no, no, no, they're two organs." They're triple burner, and what we call lymph is effectively gallbladder. And gallbladder is an interesting one. The gallbladder definitely does control lymph. It keeps it clean, because the most important thing in lymph is your fat content. It's fat that basically will bind up lymph and stop it moving correctly.   Tahnee: (59:25) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Dr. Daniel Keown: (59:27) And the gallbladder is critical in making sure your fat's emulsified, which is why-   Tahnee: (59:33) That makes so much sense when you think about where the fat deposits and then the lymph, and just the aesthetic of that. Yeah. Makes so much sense. And then that being associated with [inaudible 00:59:44] Yang.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (59:48) Yeah. You can really [crosstalk 00:59:50]. When you're feeling like all stiff and groggy and phlegmy, you can imagine that fluid within you is actually also just full of gunk.   Tahnee: (01:00:01) Mm.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:00:02) I mean, it is. When people come to me and say, "I feel like I've got brain fog." I'm like, "Well, you have. You've got gunk in your brain. You're not imagining it. It's not like you've woken up in the morning going, 'Mm. I think I'm going to imagine I've got gunk in my brain.' Brain fog. Yeah."   Tahnee: (01:00:27) That was one of the most mind blowing things for me. I remember about 10 years ago, they were like, "The brain has lymph." And I'm like, "Are we really just accepting that?" I think before that they always were like, "No, no." It's like, "Of course it does."   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:00:41) Yeah. I know.   Tahnee: (01:00:43) Yeah. But was only I think 10 years ago, they discovered the [inaudible 01:00:45], I guess, that did that, or whatever it was.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:00:48) Yeah. So the triple burner. So all of this collagen that makes the fascia, that makes the connective tissue, and actually even gets down into the bones themselves and makes the bones themselves that everyone thinks of them as hard minerals, but really they are collagen. And I actually did this myself because I didn't believe it. But if you take a chicken bone and pour it into a bowl of vinegar, it will dissolve all of the mineral, and you'll be left with this collagenous bone that is unbelievably strong. You will not break this thing. You can flex it because it's just made out of collagen. The crystals of hydroxyapatite are there to keep the bone stiff, so that you can resist gravity effectively. Because fish don't need this, because they don't need to resist gravity, but we do.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:01:45) But that's the only reason there, but the collagen is still there and it's unbelievably strong. You will not break this. And this creates a three-dimensional web within your body, that's an organ. There's no doubt about it in my mind. That is definitely an organ. In fact, it's probably as important as all of the other organs in your body. And this is the triple burner.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:02:13) And one of the interesting things about the triple burner is the burner part of it. Why is it called a burner? And the reason is... There's a few reasons, but one of the main reasons is this thing creates electricity as you move. It creates energy as you move. In the same way that when you click a cigarette lighter, it makes a little spark of electricity. This is also doing that through piezoelectricity. And this is why, if you sit at a desk, especially in a slightly cold room for a few hours, you get up and you suddenly feel really cold, and it's a deep cold that goes to your bones, because this network does go to your bones, and why you have to... If you get moving for a bit, you start warming up. And then everyone thinks, "Oh, it's because you get the blood pumping, and you've metabolically increased your rate." But actually it's really because you're moving your triple burner. You're moving your-   Tahnee: (01:03:09) [inaudible 01:03:09] system, effectively.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:03:10) Yeah. And that's creating electricity, and that's really what's warming you up. I mean, the other two things are probably important, your blood pumping and also metabolically warming you up. But I think they're less important than actually the fact that you are making your triple burner, your fascial network, wake up, warm up.   Tahnee: (01:03:29) Because some definitions of fascia include the blood vessels, because of that sort of structure, I suppose they have. Do you include that in your definition?   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:03:38) No. Because I'm now completely six divisions.   Tahnee: (01:03:42) Yeah. Okay. And yeah, that Chinese model. Yeah.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:03:48) Blood vessels are interesting, because they actually sit within two divisions. And this is backed up by embryology. So your arterial system is part of Shao Yin, and that's linked into kidney and heart, whereas your venous system is actually Xue Yin. And they do emerge embryologically from two different areas. I mean, they're in a similar starting position because they're both mesoderm, but then they branch off.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:04:17) And interestingly, the venous system shares more embryologically with the lymphatic system, than with the arterial system. Which fits perfectly because the venous system sits within Xue Yin, which is paired with Shao Yang, and Shao Yang is lymphatic system, which takes us back to the triple burner. And the lymphatic system and the triple burner, are basically the yin and yang of that aspect because the triple burner provides the structure for the lymphatic system to flow through.   Tahnee: (01:04:49) Mm-hmm (affirmative). So you are not just, because I've heard some people define the triple burner as those three pleural cavities, like the fascial sort of-   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:05:00) Yeah. Yeah. That's part of it. Yeah. That's part of it.   Tahnee: (01:05:03) But yeah. You are taking a broader, whole body definition, I suppose, where it's really every fascial connection through the body.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:05:15) It's exactly like you were saying before with the liver. And about how the liver is the densest concentration of energy, the Westminster of the political system in the United Kingdom. And the triple burner, the most powerful manifestation of this ability for fascia to divide up the body, manifests in these three burners, which are basically the pleura pericardium, or the chest, the peritoneum, or the abdomen, and the retroperitoneum, or the pelvis. The pelvis, abdomen, chest are the triple burners. But really the triple burner is this ability for fascia to divide up the body.   Tahnee: (01:06:01) Mm-hmm (affirmative). So all of these compartments and sacks that we find within the body. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And I think for people, because I guess a lot of acupuncturists throw away the triple burner, the [inaudible 01:06:17]. I think if you think about what Mao Zedong and that sort of legacy of Chinese medicine, we end up with the triple burner being almost clinically irrelevant. But just what you are explaining sounds incredibly important.   Dr. Daniel Keown: (01:06:32) Oh, gosh, yeah. I love the t

This week we sit down with Dimond Factory Racing's Chris Schroeder. We learn about Chris' transition from professional triathlon to that of a gravel racer. We also look at his decision to start a racing team versus continuing as a privateer. Dimond Factory Racing Instagram Join The Ridership Support the Podcast Automated transcription, please excuse the typos:   Hello and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. This week on the podcast, we've got Colorado based professional gravel racer, Chris Schroeder. Chris is not only a racer, but he's also the manager of the diamond factory racing team. His path to gravel racing was from that of, uh, as a professional triathlete. Interestingly, I learned that the private tier model, as it's known. It's something that's quite prevalent. In the triathlon world. But Chris didn't really want to take that model forward. He really wanted to build. Uh, professional gravel racing team. So i thought it'd be interesting to get his perspective to hear about his experience in the gravel world thus far and more importantly hear about what his plans are for 2022 with his teammate. Before we jump in, I need to thank this. Week's sponsor athletic greens. Athletic greens is literally a product I use every single day. I've been an athletic greens user for many years prior to actually starting the podcast. I really didn't have the time nor inclination to take a bunch of pills and vitamins. To get some of my nutritional basis covered. So when I found out about ag one, was stoked about how convenient it was going to be for me. So what's in this stuff with one delicious scoop of athletic greens, you're absorbing 75 high quality vitamins minerals, whole food sorts, superfoods, probiotics, and APTA Jens. To help start your day. Right? The special blend of ingredients supports gut health, your nervous system, your immune system, your energy recovery focus and aging. All the things. 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Especially in the middle of cold and flu season. It's just one scoop in a cup of water every day. That's it. No need for millions of different pills and supplements to look out for your health. To make it easy. Athletic greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athletic greens.com/the gravel ride. Again, that's athletic greens.com/the gravel ride to take ownership of your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. Would that business out of the way. Let's jump right in to my interview with Chris. [00:03:15] Craig Dalton: Chris welcome to the show. [00:03:17] Chris Schroeder: Great to be here [00:03:18] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I'm excited when you reached out to me, I think this is going to be a really interesting discussion. The starting point for all my conversations is always to get a little bit of your background as a cyclist, how you came into the sport and how ultimately you started riding. [00:03:31] Chris Schroeder: So it's hard to say how I came into cycling. I came into cycling and triathlon at the same time. About 15 years old, my family relocated from Telluride, Colorado to New York city. And at the time New York city is has a giant cycling presence. Contrarians are a very big thing there. They do a lot of races in central park and the surrounding area. So as a way for me to find something to do when I was there, I started running of those, the local cycling club. It wasn't a race club. It was. A website or a form, or you just go on there and they say, right, we have a group ride every couple of mornings and you know, it was fun. I had a old road bike and then the same exact time I was getting into that, I also equally wanting to get into triathlon. So that was a great like way for me to start training and start preparing. And as that grew, I did a couple of bike races and at the same time training for triathlons eventually just kept going into triathlon and kept doing more of the. And at the same time, I was always a very big fan of cycling. I would always watch the races. I would always follow the riders and that was like a restaurant, but I was a fan of cycling. So I just kept coming up and triathlon. Eventually I went to college at university of Colorado here in Boulder, and Boulder is a great community for pro triathletes and cyclists of all kinds. It's just a Mecca for it. And I ended up eventually becoming a professional in, I believe 20. 15 though, like end of 2015, I went on and raised five years, professional triathlete, you know, I got a lot out of it. I traveled the world. I raised on like six different continents. I met amazing people like throughout the whole way, but at the end of the five years, I just, I wasn't content with where my career was and I wasn't really, I think it plateaued. I just wasn't moving. I wasn't getting the results. I needed to continue doing the sport. And I just stagnated and going into 2020, I had this mindset and I had signed up for, to just a way out. I was like, know, I'm going to finish this sport by dating my first full iron man. So I went to go, the plan was all right, I'm going to go do Ironman, New Zealand. And a couple months before that there was a race in Oklahoma called the Oklahoma gravel Gower at the time. And I kinda knew that I got this sport gravel. I really liked it because it reminded me a lot of the monuments in cycling, like cargo bay, the dynamic just of the just bad-ass like let's get out here and get dirty and strongest man wins kind of mentality. So I knew going into that race. Not really know anything. I was like, didn't have a gravel bag and laid that on my road bike with the biggest tires I could fit. And I ended up having a great race. So early on, I got a new move of Ted king. We went on for a while. Like I eventually got dropped. I got picked up by two guys behind and then ended up beating both of them in the sprint to finish second. So all of a sudden I had this hot iron. What I use then to go on to use, to create this transition to gravel. [00:06:48] Craig Dalton: Interesting. Yeah, for me, it's not super surprising that you had a great cycling experience in New York. It might've been. 10 years ago before I knew a bunch of people from New York and realized like how great the scene is there for a road racing. It's maybe a little surprising that you got into triathlons out of New York, but obviously there's a lot of great road running there and triathlon. There's a few good races in that neck of the woods. [00:07:14] Chris Schroeder: Yeah, we'll come back to that. When we started talking about diamond and stuff like that. But when I, because I had that result in Oklahoma, when I went on to do Ironman New Zealand, you know, the race went, it was a good way to end the closing. On my drunker and made me feel very contented, very like, all right. I did everything I could and I got what I got out of it. And then I'm probably the only person in the world who this positive came from. COVID where the world's shut down. As soon as like, before I even left New Zealand, the world's start shutting down. It's a miraculous, I even got able to leave the country, the roads shut down. All these triathlon races got canceled. All of a sudden the sport that I don't want to do isn't happening anymore. But I have all these sponsors that need me to do something. So when I was able to do with all my current sponsors to say, Hey, I can't race a triathlon because there was no triathlons. I can go do another gravel race where I already had this giant buzz, this giant pop and a good result or this year. So with that, I was able to just start doing gravel races with all my sponsors, still supporting me. They were just supporting me as they were and things just went well. And then. Mid 2020, we just started really committing to, we're just going to start a team. We're not going to have minimums or anything like that. We're just going to work at the end of the January 1st. We're announcing this team and it can be big, small, whatever, wherever we land, we're going to go with. You know, we were very fortunate in having Jared come on, board, our videographer, and he really is the only reason this team was able to exist in 2021. I did Belgium wall fried Cedar city September, 2020. He came out made. What I think still to this day is his best piece of work, which was a video covering my experience. There really just raw showing that experience. I was able to then all these sponsors I was talking to at the time that were like, eh, we don't really know. I was able to send them this video. And it was like talking to a different person. All of a sudden the conversation went my way and we were able to close a couple of deals with at the time Kenda tires and vision components, both of which were huge. I, we desperately needed both of those contracts. Eventually a hybrid clothing and Lin helmets came on board to help us out. And then we had. We had the support. We had the writers, we had a product, which was our video production and assets, and that kind of launched us into 2021. [00:09:48] Craig Dalton: That's a super interesting story about how athletes need to package themselves up in order to be successful in this. I want to go back a little bit to that transition period. And as a quick side note, I also retired as a triathlete from Ironman, New Zealand, not professional, not fast, but it was my last iron man. And I agree. It's something, if you get into the sport of triathlon, regardless of the level, having that iron man experience is just it. I think it is very similar to these epic gravel events. We're just getting across the finish line can be such a magic. Thing in your history that everybody should try to do it. [00:10:24] Chris Schroeder: Yeah, absolutely. I I it's just like in the moment I was just miserable. Like I was. A lot of stuff, like just in my life and where I was my career, but I, because I finished it. I can just, I don't have to look back cause I'm just I'm so much more content than I would be. Had I not done that? [00:10:41] Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm also curious, you know, it sounds like the 72.2 distance was a strong suit of yours. Then you moved up to the Ironman distance. When you started going to these long gravel events, what kind of parallels did you see from the endurance and mental strength required to complete an Ironman or a long distance triathlon to what you were seeing at the gravel of. [00:11:04] Chris Schroeder: Well, it's hard. I don't think 70.3 is Ironman. You can draw a lot of parallel parallels, the 70.3 distance. Not as much because those races are dynamic. You are racing. An Ironman is a lot more similar in the sense you. Not raising, you're all just trying to finish. And one of you happens to finish before the others. Definitely the mental attitude that you have in an Ironman of when you're just trying to finish it. I've nothing else to do today. If always I keep putting one foot in front of the other, I will eventually cross the line. That's like the unfortunate gravel mentality for a lot of these 10 plus hour events or. Even the comment, I feel like 125 miles is the common distance for gravel. You're still looking at a seven hour day for the fast guys. Like it's a lot of time out there versus the 71 is really four hours. Most professionals go way under that now. So it's hard to say, like, I think honestly my biggest asset transitioning to gravel was just the amount of time has been being a fan of cycling and why. Professional races and just admiring the tactics. [00:12:09] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think one of the things that has come up on a number of occasions and in my own personal experience with triathlon was just. Stuff's going to go wrong and you just gotta move forward and get on with it. And the events are long enough that you can have a really bad nutrition or hydration moment and come back around. If you just fuel the system in the right. [00:12:28] Chris Schroeder: absolutely. I think in gravel, The gravel, you can get a little more catastrophic with your failures. You're talking about just breaking everything is breakable on a gravel race tire wheel by Canterbury's yourself. Like it's all up in the air. In a triathlon you can bonk or you can get a flat like those. Those are really the two bad scenarios and the gravel is just, you just don't know what's going to go wrong. There's so many options. [00:12:50] Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred [00:12:51] Chris Schroeder: Like for Unbound with, you have to basically be able to rebuild your entire bike is rather than. [00:12:57] Craig Dalton: Speaking of Unbound. So 2020, you sort of get your gravel legs underneath you. You have the good fortune of having sponsors that are willing to pivot with you because gravel was going off more than the triathlon world was you fell in love with it 2021, you register from Unbound. And there's a great video of your experience there. So why don't you talk to us about your experience? What was your. Expectations and goals going in and how did it play? [00:13:22] Chris Schroeder: Unmanned was definitely a little emotional. Like it's a, like, it's a lot that goes into it. It's really very parallel to the Ironman world championships in terms of prestige And just the hype around it. I definitely went into it a little ignorant of just like what's about to happen. I made some just blatant mistakes, but ultimately I just wasn't trained properly for it. And completely just melted in the, it's hard to describe for people that haven't done Unbound it's 200 miles. I think the winter did like 10 hours and 30 minutes this year. So you, would expect this, the race to play out in something in a way that would, you know, relate to someone trying to pace themselves for about long race. In the beginning, like three hours of Unbound are just you're on the pace [00:14:20] Craig Dalton: Did you enter that race thinking I'm going to stick with the lead group? You know, this is going to be my tactic in those first three. [00:14:27] Chris Schroeder: yeah, I just didn't do a couple blatant things. I didn't preview enough of the course. I preview maybe the first like 20 miles and then like mile like 25, we entered this just ridiculous Doubletrack section. Bodies everywhere. And it's like, as a easy tactical error, I was 58 wheels back when we entered that section. And this is probably my biggest advice for anyone racing gravel is it's not ever the effort of being in the front group. That's going to get you. It's the effort of having to chase back onto the front group. That's going to kill you and having to do that twice. Cause there was two Doubletrack sections and both of those sections I wasn't prepared. I was out of. And then leaving them. I had to chase back on. And then those efforts are the ones that really take it out of you where you're doing 10, 15 minutes, just like everything you've got to try and chase back on. That's the effort you can't recover from. And that's also the same effort that you're burning. Very precious fuel. You're brewing your body's heating up, like, you know, the internal temperature and all that's just going up and to ever recover from that. Like you almost have to completely just start going easy to even recover from it. So that's like the thing that kind of like led to the, my, a larger downfall in that race was just those big efforts from just not being prepared with the course that resulted in just like catastrophic kind of blow up that I had. It's hard to say like 200 miles is a lot. It's a lot to train for, to being competitive. And I think that perhaps for 2022, I might actually pivot and race the a hundred mile and Unbound with the thought process of just being like at, in the 200, you know, what's realistic from results standpoint. You know, everything goes well, like my best day, where am I finishing? You know, perhaps on my best day, I'm finishing ninth in the laundry. That's a huge result. I think on an average day I could win the hundred. So from an athlete perspective and a business perspective, I'd have to think, all right, where's the optimal value right now? I'm seeing it in the a hundred, you know, the a hundred got a lot of press still. The winner was on a lot of the magazines are not, he's like the news articles that we came out about it. I think that I might be taking a step back from doing the 200 Unbound this year to refocus and prioritize the a hundred and really go after a result there. [00:17:04] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it is interesting, you know, a hundred is a lot more racing distance than a 200, as you said. I think the top men and women, like they know how to handle that a high-octane three hour, first, three hour of Unbound, and then go back to a more comfortable level and then race, you know, another six hours later. But at least [00:17:23] Chris Schroeder: Absolutely. I think that 200 miles, the thing is this, I think eventually Unbound will suffer from this is that it's not dynamic watching 200 miles race. Ironman has the same problem. It's not interesting watching any of our race because not enough is happening to keep you entertained. Unbound is the same thing. The last five hours of it, or even more boring than the first five we're watching the more boring Bard, because everyone's just dying at that point. And they're just dying in a direction towards the finish line. A hundred mile raising is completely different, you know, it's completely dynamic the whole entire time. You're because it's shorter. People are able to stay together longer and makes for more interesting race. And that's where I think the. I get the gravel has this mindset of like longer is more gravel or something along those lines, but there is a line where you need to just like adding miles for the sake of adding miles is just not like, what's it doing? I had this conversation with Jim Miller at BWR at Cedar city where this year they, it used to end where you do. Like a mile, like 105, you'd go from do like five miles of single track. And then you get on a bike path and it was like three months to finish line and they added like 17 miles of like, you face the thing on track and then just do 17 miles of like nothing gravel and an around like construction sites. Like you're on the road going through like neighborhoods, like you're on the road going through an industrial park. And I was just like, why did you add that? Like, it did nothing for the race. You have this beautiful. You know, you're struggling. You Google, these climbs, you get to the single track, just getting there is such an accomplishment. You've finished this very hard tangled, downhill, single track, and then you're on a bike path to the finish line. And that was like, when you think of a race and you're no, one's saying you have to have a certain distance, so you should just try and have the best race course you can. And by adding those extra miles, you didn't really do. You did the opposite. You made us all finish with the last hour of stuff that we saw. An airplane hanger and a construction site and utility soft. Like I just think that some of these race directors need to not have the mindset of longer is better. [00:19:42] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting to get your perspective as someone more towards the front end of the race, because I've got the mid pack perspective. And, but I tend to agree with you. Like, for me beyond a hundred miles just is not something I really can ever get fit enough for being, you know, a professional and a family man. Like that's just not happening in my world. So I'm not. Super pro those things and I can in talking to you definitely get it that you're not going to get a very dynamic race with 20 people battling it out. If it's 200 miles, because half of those people are going to drop out from mechanicals. Others are going to drop out through nutrition, and you're going to end up with this battle of attrition that maybe leaves it as we've seen in the last couple of years, two or three people duking out a little bit. Towards the end of the 200. And then maybe if you're lucky it's a sprint finish. [00:20:38] Chris Schroeder: Yeah, I'm the same way. Like I just visit logically like that a hundred mile to like a fast, 125 mile course. That's my sweet spot. And I think that, I don't know if I would say, like, it was a hard lesson to learn that I'm not in this current state of 200 mile racer. I'm a lot better at that a hundred, 1 25 kind of range. Yeah, accepting, like, look, I'm at a couple of these events, like take gravel worlds, for example, like it's just not, it's not great for me. I can do, you know, really well on a faster, less climbing, 125 mile course, but longer than that, I'm just not ready. Like I just don't have the years and miles of this intensity in the legs. Like, even though it triathlon. Obviously still very bike heavy. I don't have the intensity that these races are run out for that long a time. [00:21:29] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of that, What, when you transitioned you talked about this a little bit, but how would you care to characterize your gravel skillset? Are you feeling technically strong or is that still like, you're a horsepower guy from your triathlon days? [00:21:46] Chris Schroeder: it's a hard one. It's definitely something I'm I work really hard to improve. Is my technical skills, not just like Unbound and it's a good example of well early stages. And I would say like the first 30 miles on a mountain, you are in a giant group and you need to be 10. We still don't have to move within that group in a very comfortable way. You need to be really comfortable, bumping elbows and shoulders. And I did a lot to help myself with that. I raised a lot of like criteriums on the local scene. I did a cyclocross this season, all with that in mind. Not only do I want to get better at it. I want to be known as someone who is very proficient at my handling and my positioning, because I think that's one of the biggest gaps in gravel where you can take advantage of is a technical skill, especially for descending. It's very hard. It's not like the road at all. Cause there's so many things going on in any given turn. So just getting better at that skill is something I really wanted to invest in, in the off season. And hopefully that kind of. Pays for itself, this coming season. [00:22:49] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that goes into another one of my sort of desires for the sport. I love when event organizers do throw in technical elements of the course. Cause I do think the best gravel racers that I want to see that I admire. They've got that full bag of tricks, right? They can go well when it's a basic gravel road or pavement, but they also can thrive in the technical elements of the sport. And you definitely see, and it sounds like you're very attuned to. The types of events that are going to suit you well, so maybe you're not going to a super single tracky event today, as you're continuing to build that skillset. [00:23:23] Chris Schroeder: And you're also not going to see me doing like I'm 63 and like 170 pounds. Like I'm not going uphills quick. Like you're not gonna see me a Toshar. I did that race this year and I was like, this is awful. This isn't for the big boys. So like knowing also like, what race am I realistically going to be competitive to that person? What race do I just not like, don't just, don't go do that. Like just don't do that race. You can just skip it. Like there's nothing wrong with skipping a race. So I think it's just a lesson where you have to just sit and go, let's take an honest look at things. This is what I'm good at. This is what I'm horrible at it. So we shouldn't go to races that have a big emphasis on stuff that I'm bad at. I. I definitely agree with you where I think that in gravel, every race should have like one call it feature of just ridiculousness. Like each racing I'll throw in a single track section, throw in some river crossings, you know, something like that. Just to I think it's always fun just to have that one kind of obstacle that race will then become known for. [00:24:20] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's like a preeminent criteria. It just spices things up. And in this scenario you'd know about it. Right. You know, there's the technical, single track coming up and that it may create a, a. that might be someone's opportunity to take advantage of their particular skillset, knowing full well that, you know, they're less proficient in another discipline. I remember hearing pace and McKelvin talking about the rule of three and racing against the in Boswell. And he's like, you know, Ian's got me in so many different ways, but I did know when, as someone with a mountain bike background, when I hit that single track, it was going to be a huge advantage for me. And I could likely take that to the finish line. And that proved to be. [00:25:01] Chris Schroeder: Yeah, I think that, I think I've even listened to that. Pacing and Ian, where it does, it makes us it up, which keeps gravel interesting. It means that mountain biker has an advantage on the road cyclist. And you know, the flip side of that, of the road psychos has the advantage on the mountain biker and all these different sections. And it just it goes on like BWR, Kansas had like a cyclocross specific section, which favored a bunch of guys from that background. So it just it helps keep grappled fresh. Giving people from all these different disciplines, their chance to shine. [00:25:36] Craig Dalton: A while back, you mentioned your cycling team and the formation of it, the diamond factory racing team. I thought it was interesting as you and I were talking offline. Obviously the director. Professional attitude towards gravel racing is I'm going to become a private tier and I'm going to cobble together my own personal sponsors. And I'm going to overtly take that positioning. You've taken a different approach and you're looking to build a team. And I'm just curious to hear in your own words about that process and why team versus private two year. And what's the vision for the. [00:26:08] Chris Schroeder: That's a hard one to say, like triathlon. It's funny. We talk about private here so much in gravel. All triathlon is private here. That's all you do. So I private tiered for years, five years of private area. I loved it. But the thing when you're a privateer is you have nothing to point at and say like this won't all be gone tomorrow. If you're a privateer, you can wake up the next day. Every single sponsor you have could be gone. It, you know, it sucks to say like, and that's just the business I wanted to. And then when you're done racing, it's all gone completely. It's not coming back. You're if you're not racing, providing them what they want before. Your job's done. So part of the team was I really enjoy the business process of the sport, and I wanted to build something where I can actually transition from being a racer to just being the manager. So the goal was always this long-term vision of, I want to build a program. That's my career. I want my career to be building this team and I want it to be pursued that way. When I talk to people now, I say like the honest truth is I'm in the gravel business. I'm not in the gravel hobby. I'm not in the gravel fitness, I'm in the gravel business and everything I do has somewhat of a business perspective on it. Cause that's just the mindset I have to have for me to ever get this program where I want it to be. And I have, you know, call it a five-year vision board for this team. It's hard to map out because we just don't know what is going to look like every year. It's changing a little bit different regulations that UCI has coming in politics. Drama, it all kind of changes in affects the way that the outcome is going to be. But I know like deep down that I want this program five years from now to be the absolute forefront of this. On the professional scene. I want people entering the sport young age or any aspiration to always be looking to us as that pinnacle of this is what it means to be like a true professional at the same way. Any of us is in cycling or was I guess now it's shuffled a little bit at the. top, but having that team where everyone wants to be on this team means that you've made. [00:28:32] Craig Dalton: So what's step one in that journey. What does 22 look like? [00:28:35] Chris Schroeder: Well, step one was the hardest one. Step one was Brittany and I and Jared coming together and saying, we're just going to start a team. And this was a back in when we first started the program going into 2021, I'm saying we, we decided the biggest thing that we had to put away in our minds was were we had this mindset of rolling to start this team. If we did. Filling the blank. We had to take that away and just say, we're starting a team, no matter what, and we're just going to go with it. So changing that is what led us to step one. And then in 2021, our big gamble, you could say it was, we ended up investing 80, 90% of our budget into content creation. We just said to Jared, and we want the absolute, highest quality possible consistent. I don't care about views. I'm here about likes. We just need consistent high quality content. And that's the investment we're going to make, because we think that's where the value is that we can show it's tangible. We can always point at it and say, here's a product. A sponsor comes, you know, we can show them. This is our asset. A lot of people don't understand when you're talking to sponsors, you need to have definable assets for them to understand for them to latch onto and create value. And that's where the party has been cycling and triathlon where the modern scope of what that is very different than it was five years ago, 10 years ago, simply going to a sponsor saying I raised 20 times a year and I post on Instagram every other week. Do you not really creating value? You're just there. You're just pack fire at that point. [00:30:21] Craig Dalton: Do you have a vision for the type of content that you're aspiring to produce? Is it giving people a closer look at what racing some of these big races is like? Or are you thinking otherwise. [00:30:34] Chris Schroeder: Well, our biggest asset is our series. It's called the equal rod. It's on my YouTube channel and the team's YouTube channel. And that's where we're diverting all of our budget and supporting to creating this series. And we just want it to be a YouTube series. And it's hard to say, like what it shows. We just say that it shows an honest look because you go to these races and everything will go different than you think it will. So we just tell Jared whatever happens, just film it. And it sucks when you're dying on the side of Unbound and you have to DNF and there's a camera in your face and you have to narrate your own misery. It's awful, but that's what we decided to go with it. And it just katelyn Andrew. And you know, there's the flip side of it. I don't know. I had a great race. I'm so happy to talk about it. So we never know what an episode's going to be. We just know it's going to be honest. It's going to be misery. It's going to be glory and everything in [00:31:30] Craig Dalton: gotcha. I'll point people to the YouTube link for that failure in 2021, because I do think it is interesting and it's so real it's truth, right? [00:31:39] Chris Schroeder: Yeah. And that's just the thing is that you have on one of these professionals that will have a bad race and they'll bury it, you know, they'll, they won't post anything about it. Then we'll talk about it. They'll post 10 other things about blah, blah, blah, motivation. And you're like, wait, I saw this build and all of a sudden there's just a gap. And now you're back on this train. Like what happened? Like I want to know, like, I'm following you for a reason. And that's the story. Like I'm not following you. Cause I think you're going to win. I felt like, cause I just want to see your story and your perspective. So we really want to be true to the audience and give them what really happened. [00:32:13] Craig Dalton: that makes sense. So the title sponsor, the team is a company called diamond by. And I wasn't familiar with them. And after doing a little research, I see that they were big in the triathlon world, but they do have a pretty impressive looking gravel bike. Do you want to talk a little bit about the company where it's based and the bike you'll be riding this year? [00:32:35] Chris Schroeder: It's quite the story of how diamond and I came together when I was back living in New York city as a kid at the time before I'd even done my first draft. Ironman hosted iron man, New York city, which was a gimmick. The entire triathlon took place in New Jersey. And then the finish line was in New York city and it was a joke, but I was a kid I volunteered the entire day. I was up at like 3:00 AM. I was just buzzing. I saw all this stuff. It was fantastic. I, you know, it was at the finish line start like, Hey, people that are swim bags and then everywhere I could go, I was, and then at the end of the day, I ended up at the finish line. And if anyone's ever done an Ironman or triathlon, you know that when you cross the finish line, give them more or less just collapse, emotionally, physically, however, they feel like it. So they have volunteers literally there to catch you and you stand in line and they're just young people come in and whoever's first in line catches them one. I was there and you know, this is just 15 year old kid. This pro called TJ Alex and came over in the line. I caught him. I think he finished fifth on the day. One of the coolest experiences of my life. You know, I'm a kid, I just touched a fro. And to me it was just the coolest thing in the world. You know, follow TJ, enjoyed that eventually, you know, a couple of years later I became a pro and then a couple years after that, I went and did a Ironman 70.3 in Argentina. It was in Berlo Chang. One of the prettiest towns I've ever been to. And these races, you know, what they do is they'll put you up and they'll just assign you a hotel room. And I happened to be assigned or hotel room with TJ. So we shared a room in Argentina and we just became friends through that story. And we ended up doing quite a few races together. We raced all over the country. I think TJ, we raised in Argentina, we raised in Peru, we first in the United States and then towards the end, he eventually retired from racing. I went on raised a couple more years, and then eventually I have stepped down from triathlon to gravel and we'd always come in contact. We've always been friends and it was a great relationship. And then he watched what we did in 2021. And then I went to see Otter and I went there pretty much from a business perspective of like, all my sponsors are here. I can sit down and crank out two months worth of emails in two days. Also just a great event, iconic. I highly recommended only considering going, doing that race says any race you want, they have it. And I went there and I saw DJ and it was great. You know, we bumped into there. He showed me the gravel by, we talked, you know, all was good. And we went our separate ways. And then a couple weeks later I kinda got a text from him saying, Hey, I got a idea for you. Let's chat. And six weeks of hardcore negotiating later, we ended with. A multi-year title, sponsorship deal with diamond, and it's become really the linchpin of this team now because of the ability where it guarantees our ability to grow, no matter what happens, we can grow going to 20, 23 now. And that's what this team needs. I need to always have a perspective of what's the next step. If I'm not looking to grow we're stagnating. So closing this deal and being able to have this. Guaranteed to athletes coming on, going to 23, 3, nothing else matters. Everything else can go with that. [00:36:02] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's pretty unheard of level of security. I imagine for a lot of gravel rates. To put a little bit more color around the brand they're located in Iowa. Is that correct? [00:36:15] Chris Schroeder: Yeah. So this is an American brand, the factories in the morning. I, the bikes are made in Des Moines, Iowa. They're handmade. It's super bespoke, experiencing, if you go on their website, the first thing you're gonna to see is that just like actual diamonds, no, two diamond bikes look the same, every single diamond bike, you get a custom paint job. However you want it funky, traditional everything in between. You work directly with the owner, TJ when you're buying and ordering. And it's just a great experience. I think it's also just unique, you know? You're going to stand out with a diamond. Yeah. They've they launched their gravel and their road bike, their ground bike. The carbide is very new. They launched it mid 2020, and it was a it's interesting. I, when I first saw it, the diamond for the triathletes who are aware of the brand, they made make the fastest triathlon bike on the market. It's non-traditional, it's a beam bike. Pretty much the pioneer for that whole industry of the beam bikes. And when they came to gravel with anything that you said, all right, how can we be the forefront of this? And that's what went into the carbine and just the way that it's laid out the geometry, it's all race focused. Like this bike is a thoroughbred, it's there to win races. And I'm just the thing on top of it pedaling. So That's an interesting perspective. This is probably my first time where it's a lot to say this. I think that we're going to have the fastest bike in gravel. I think the way that our diamonds are built with visioning the mountains, it's weird to say, but I think we are going to have the fastest bike in the sport. [00:38:02] Craig Dalton: That's confidence inspiring. I'm sure. To look down and feel that way. Yeah. It's an interesting bike and I'll make sure to link to it in the notes as well, and fascinating to learn that there's another. Us carbon manufacturing brand out there. Cause there, you know, there's probably only a handful of them in existence in the United States. [00:38:22] Chris Schroeder: Yeah. it's a dynamic that you mainly hear about, like, you always hear like these legendary oh, Italian brands. Five bikes and they cost a million dollars. And I think that was the normal introduction than people think when they think small bear brands, but this one being American, it's just, it's very different. It's very American brand. TJ is American. He tries to be more flamboyant than he is, but he's just a hardcore American and he's a blue collar, hardworking dude. I it's weird. Like he's my boss now, but we've been, we were friends for so many years that it's hard to have. Transitional of like thinking of him as a boss. When I just think of him as like this guy I've traveled the world with, and then he's told me stories about everyone I can think of and you know, we'd sit down and he tells me about his kids and stuff like that. It's just, this guy, when I proposed my fiance and we had a business call and it was like right after I had. We talked, it was like an hour long heritage. We talked five minutes a visit and he, it was like 55 minutes of just mind shattering advice for marriage and life. Like it was these perspectives that just gave me this feeling of someone who really cares about me. He basically talked me into wanting to have a wedding when I really just didn't care. Like he just completely changed my perspective on it. And to have that relationship is really special. [00:39:44] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it sounds like it's going to be an amazing thing to have in your corner this year. And the fact that you guys are building something together confirmed over the next two years, they're just going to be great. It's going to be super interesting to see where it goes. Speaking of this year, what's your, what are your goals this year? Are there big events that you're really thinking about? [00:40:05] Chris Schroeder: It's a little bit up in the air. I just got confirmed for led boat. Like yesterday where I got my Leadville charge on the credit card. Cause that's how they tell you. So that's gonna be a major goal on down. We'll be a major goal in terms of like peak performances, fitness, every race I go to, I'm trying to, when I'm not going to races anymore, that I don't think we're gonna win. I'm gonna win some. Mid-South Unbound SBT, and then a fake sugar and Belgium welfare. I Kansas are all like my main events, but I'm also going to hit a lot of like local grassroots events. I'm starting off my season at gravel, Miami, which is a new event in Miami. And I'm really excited to do that one. It's a flat course, which I'm really excited about a hundred miles. I'm just excited for that race. They're putting us, it's sponsored by Miami brewing company and they rented like three rap video level mansions to house the pros in. [00:41:09] Craig Dalton: Only in [00:41:09] Chris Schroeder: And yeah, it was only in Miami. and it's, you know, it's the treatment that I always dreamed I would get it every race. So I'm going to be a little sad when I come back from it and I realized. Van life and all these events. And I'm really excited for that one. We do, we'll do a couple of other the robot do rendezvous is a hundred mile race in Scottsbluff, just some smaller ones. Like there's something in gravel that is special, that everyone jokes about dying. They call it the spirit of gravel. If you go to these small races, you'll experience that it's special. It's unique and it's weird, but it's still out there, but it's only in these small races. So for me, you know, if I go to Unbound, it feels the same as when I was a professional Ironman. Everyone is, you know, a little tense, a little uptight they're there, everyone's on their peak form. No one really wants to talk and hug and all that. But then you go to these smaller grass root events and it's the opposite of all that. It's, everyone's relaxed. Everyone's just there for the community and the experience and beer. It's great. So I really want to make sure I continue to have those in my schedule to keep me grounded into what I love about the sport. [00:42:23] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I think those are there. It's a key thing that's going on in gravel that how races are changing and evolving and no one wants to lose that intimacy and camaraderie, but inevitably like as these races get bigger and more important to people's professional careers. It's undoubted bull that the tenor is going to change at the start line. So yeah, long live the community event. [00:42:48] Chris Schroeder: Yeah. exactly. That's just how it is. And we're actually trying one thing I do. From a business perspective as I try to pull from other sports and it's something, this is unique. And I think that's hopefully going to be a good success that we're going to be trying this year is that at certain races, we're actually going to have a diamond booth in the expo where we're going to have, you know, this year will be a little different cause there's just myself and Brittany and Jared we're in, you know, we're going to be there to try and interact as much as possible. We're going to have team bikes. We're even going to have some demo bikes come by. You can chat with us. And we want to grow that very similar to like motorcross or NASCAR, where people get the experience to come into the pits and they get to look at the garage and see the driver and the mechanics, all working. We wanted to bring that as a way for people to interact more of us on a personal level. And especially in a approachable way, you know, we've all been that fan boy at the expo that sees someone we want to talk to, but you know, they're walking around and they're doing their thing and we don't want to interrupt them. So we thought, how can we. Creative approachable environment that is friendly for the fans. And it's a great way for us to really talk to our fans of our sponsors and say, Hey, you know, this is our bike and you want to here's the demo one, go take it around the block, [00:44:05] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. [00:44:05] Chris Schroeder: Touch it. [00:44:06] Craig Dalton: I think that'll shine through if you set that intention, which is great. And I think based on this conversation, fans of the sport will have a great way to follow you and your team throughout the year on the video series, and hopefully be able to connect with you at some of these events. So I, Chris, I appreciate all the time today. That's a great conversation. I wish you best of luck and really do look forward to seeing your name up there at the front end of these events. [00:44:31] Chris Schroeder: Yeah, fingers crossed that it eventually gets to that. And for anyone watching, like you're going to see me at an event or two this year, come up, give me a hug. I want to interact with you guys as much as you perhaps wanna interact with me. So just don't be a stranger. [00:44:46] Craig Dalton: Right on. Thanks Chris. So that's going to do it for this week's podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Chris and I encourage you to follow the diamond factory racing team on social media. I know they've got big plans to show you behind the scenes about what it's like being a professional, gravel racer. In 2022. If you're interested in joining the conversation, I encourage you to visit the ridership. www.theridership.com. It's our free online community. Within the community, you'll find gravel, cyclists of all kinds, whether they be backpackers. Racers commuters, you name it. They're all in there. Everybody in the community shares a common goal and it's just to elevate one another. So, whether you're looking to answer some of those hard questions about what tire to buy or what equipment, what bike to buy, or just need some moral support, the community is there for you. I'm always impressed with the level of interaction and comradery that I see happening that I've got nothing to do with. It is also a great place to get in touch with me. So, if you have any feedback for the show, please just hit me up directly in the ridership. I found inspiration for many, a new episode from the questions that I've received. Through the ridership. So remember that's just www.theridership.com to get started. If you're interested in supporting the podcast. You can visit me at buy me a coffee. Dot com slash the gravel ride. I appreciate any and all support you can provide to my efforts. And hopefully the journey that I've been on as a gravel cyclist has been useful to all of you. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels

Eva Williams is the founder of Golden Lotus; A divine online portal of meditations, movement practices, and sexual/spiritual energy education designed to cultivate spiritual awakening, sexual activation, and embodied sovereignty. This episode explores rebirth and the unfolding of the sacred feminine through preparation and activation rituals, with a deep dive into birth and pregnancy. Tahnee and Eva journey into the numinous layers of Eva's healing work, her Golden Lotus portal, her focus on cultivating and purifying the body through ancient techniques, sexual embodiment, self-pleasure practices, and the many dimensions of birth work. A healer and teacher with over a decade of experience in bodywork, energy work, and feminine sexual cultivation techniques, Eva carries a depth of knowledge that women need now more than ever. Currently, the way most women in society birth is within the structure of an over-medicalised patriarchal system. Sacred feminine lineages of natural birthing wisdom have been at large, replaced with time constraints, interventions, inductions, and regulations; The antithesis of a naturally unfolding feminine space. How did we end up here? With so much of her work focused on this space and where sexual embodiment falls into birth, Eva discusses the importance of birth preparation; From detoxing, orgasms, and opening the pelvis to the deep work of trusting the body and baby to do what they instinctively know how to do. This conversation is a deep weaving of energetic, sexual, and birth culture healing; For all women, past, present, and future.   "Many people come into tantra with a concept of a partner base in mind. But the way I was trained, particularly with my teachers in this more Sufi tradition, I never went into any of this work looking for my sexuality. I never thought I would only work with women; I never thought I would be working with birth. That was not my aim; My aim was to heal people. I worked on everyone. Ultimately, I wanted to find God. I wanted a very deep spiritual experience or a series of those. And over time, that guided me in that direction.  But there was a level of care and sobriety cultivated within me before I was put on that path. And this level of deep devotion and sobriety to my self-development was paramount".   - Eva Williams     Tahnee and Eva discuss: Doula work. Ultrasounds. Inducing labour. Foetal monitoring. Dolphin midwives. Birth preparation. Empowered birth. Tantric practices. Devine Female Orgasm. Self-pleasure practices. Feminine embodiment. Female sexuality and birth. The pelvis is a fluid body. Somatics and embodiment. Time constraints placed on pregnancy and birthing.   Who is Eva Louise Williams? Eva Louise Williams is a healer and teacher with over a decade of experience in bodywork, energy work, and feminine sexual cultivation techniques. She began her journey at 18 learning reiki and pranic healing, before becoming initiated into Kriya yoga (the lineage of Babaji) at 20, then went on to study Shiatsu, Japanese Acupuncture, and Taoist sexual cultivation techniques. She began teaching others at 26 and received the transmission for Golden Lotus at the age of 29. She currently has over 10,000 hours of experience as a bodyworker and teacher. Eva is also a doula, a birth educator, and an RYT 500 in tantric Hatha and kundalini lineages. Golden Lotus was founded to both serve and lead female seekers towards awakening and remembering Self-love & trust. It is a series of teachings that cultivate spiritual and sovereign embodiment; the focus lies in stabilising, purifying, and awakening through ancient techniques and spiritual secrets taught through a state of ritual and Holy full-body Prayer.     CLICK HERE TO LISTEN ON APPLE PODCAST    Resources: goldenlotus.com Golden Lotus Instagram   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We'd also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher, CastBox, iHeart RADIO:)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee: (00:00) Hi everybody, and welcome to the SuperFeast Podcast. Today, I'm joined by Eva Williams. I'm really excited to have her here. I've been following her work online and she's really aligned with what we do at SuperFeast. She's an explorer of this wide world of Daoist medicine through the Japanese lineage, but also, she waves in, from what I can tell, you seem to bring in all these beautiful, different traditions, Sufism, Kriya yoga, different types of feminine embodiment, Pranic healing, that kind of stuff. So I'm really excited to have you here today. I'm really excited to share with our community your work.   Tahnee: (00:37) And if you guys are interested, we'll talk about it through the podcast, but Eva has a whole lot of resources on her website, courses you can do related to different aspects of a lot of the stuff we teach at SuperFeast. So thank you for joining us here today, Eva, it's such a pleasure to have you here.   Eva Williams: (00:53) My pleasure. Thank you so much.   Tahnee: (00:57) Yeah, I'm so excited. I think I first came across you on Instagram and I've had a look through what you offer. I know you haven't studied with Mantak, but it really seems aligned with a lot of the work that I learned through studying with him, the feminine work around energy cultivation. Obviously, you've studied Shiatsu and Japanese acupuncture. So you speak to the meridians and all those kinds of things. Would you mind telling us a bit about your journey here? How did you get to be offering Golden Lotus to the world?   Eva Williams: (01:30) Yeah, sure. All right. My journey's been quite interesting in terms of length because my mom is really into alternative medicine. I remember when I was six years old and I just had this incredibly bad tonsillitis, it was to the point where I was being taken out of school for days and days every week. And my mom noticed that I responded really, really well to the osteopath that she would take us to because she used to take us all three to the osteopath regularly. And so the osteopath said, "Look, this kid is responsive as hell. You should just take her to a cranial osteopath because that will help."   Eva Williams: (02:12) So I started going to this professional cranial osteopath when I was six, and it was the only thing that assisted, it was the only thing my body would really respond to. So really, from an early age, my mom knew that, particularly me, I think my brother and sister definitely as well, but particularly me, if anything would happen, like when I was 13 and I had anxiety, my mom was like, "Oh, we could put her on anti-anxiety or we could do reflexology with Bach flower remedies." And also, I had psoriasis, I had developed psoriasis when I was 13. And psoriasis, for those of you who don't know, is a skin issue, and it's one of these just really stubborn, autoimmune things.   Eva Williams: (02:55) Anything that's autoimmune is basically, no offence to all of the fantastic doctors and the medical community, but anything that's autoimmune is basically in the realm of, "We don't really know what the fuck is happening, so here's some steroids. That's where we're at." And so I started trying out these different things and some of them are called like bowel neurotherapies, which are where you'd have a salt bath and then UV light therapy or something like that. And there's not a lot of sun in the Netherlands where I was living at the time. So I started getting into this world where every time I'd be going to this clinic, I'd be checking out the cards on the notice board.   Eva Williams: (03:34) And there'd always be like random things like Karma healing or like emotional Chakra clearing. And one day I found this card and I was like, "This is so good." I walked around with this card for like a week or two, and then I called the person. And I remember, as soon as I called her, she was like, "Yeah, how can I help you?" I'm like, "Look, I don't really know what you do. Do you speak English? I don't really know what you do, but I feel really like this is something that I need to try." And she was like, "Hmm, no, you need Dini." I was like, "I'm sorry, have we even met? I'm trying to book an appointment with you."   Eva Williams: (04:04) And she was like, "No, you need Dini." I was like, "Oh, okay. I need Dini." And then this woman was this like 75-year-old woman who looked so young. And she was like, "How old do you think I am?" I'm like, "We've been through this before." She was just amazing. And she barely spoke any English. And I remember I was 15 when I first went to see her, and she did Meridian massage. She did Meridian clearing and healing. She was just a healer, so she would tell me a bunch of different things, and then she would do this work on me. She would tell me things that I look back on now, I'm like, "Dude, she was so on point."   Eva Williams: (04:44) But at the time, I was like, "What the fuck is she talking about?" She's like, "You're taking on a lot from your father." I'm like, "Okay."   Tahnee: (04:51) What does that mean?   Eva Williams: (04:51) Exactly. And now, I'm like, "I'm that person." But it was quite a unique experience. And I remember when she first read my astrology chart, she just looked at me. And it was very Dutch. The Dutch are very dry, they don't beat around the bush, they're very pragmatic and straightforward. And she was like, "Wow, that's not good." I was like, "Why are you doing this to me?" So she started saying to me really early on when I was 15, 16, I didn't like high school, so I left high school when I was 15 to teach myself. She started saying to me really regularly, "You have to promise me that you will do this work." She's like, "Do you think what I do is amazing?" I'm like, "I think it's pretty out there."   Eva Williams: (05:36) And she's like, "Okay, but what you are going to do is this, but much, much more." And she's like, "You have to promise me." And my mom taught me from when I was really young that a promise is a really strong word and you don't use it if you can't keep it. So I was like, "Far out, man, this is my life ahead of me and you want me to..., " But she sent me to some other people, liquid crystal healers and all sorts of things, so I was getting into some really bizarro stuff. And I wasn't telling my parents that much about this because it no longer had this homoeopathic application anymore. Now, it was just like, "Fuck it, I'm going to go on a journey and meet the [inaudible 00:06:07]. See you later."   Eva Williams: (06:08) I was getting into some really out-there stuff at like 16, 17, but it was, it was really amazing. So I followed that thread and I taught myself, I homeschooled myself. And I got into a really great university. And so I went to university, everyone told me people are more free thinking in university, etc, etc. And I thought, "Okay, great." But actually I didn't find that, I actually found that the institutionalised information had just become denser. I didn't find that people were more free thinking, I found that there were more presumptions. And especially for someone who didn't go through the IB or the international baccalaureate programme, it was really difficult for me.   Eva Williams: (06:51) I had some really awakening moments, just some really jarring stuff happened where I was like, "I don't think I really belong here." And my dad moved to India that year, and so my brother and sister and I all went to see him in India. My dad's a geologist, so all around the house, ever since we were little, we'd had tumbled rocks, amethyst, turquoise, this or that. So he was always teaching us about all these crystals. So when my brother and I got to India, we saw the tumbled rocks, these beautiful amethyst, and we both took one. We were like, "Let's go to the Himalayas."   Eva Williams: (07:28) He's like, "Yeah, let's learn yoga from a really old yogi." I was like, "Yeah, let's go do that." So and I was like, "Dad, I'm taking this rock with me." He's like, "If you take that, you're bringing it back. That's my rock." So I took this amethyst in my pocket and I went into the Himalayas. And I met a woman and she... I wanted to study Reiki, that was my thing. She just looked at me and she was like, "Hey, look, I'm going to give you these codes for all the different levels of Reiki, and then I need you to come back and I want you to teach my level two students." I'm like, "Lady, I just walked in here. I don't know what Reiki is yet."   Tahnee: (08:01) I've got to learn.   Eva Williams: (08:06) "I've got a nab at this, I had a dream on the bus. There's a lot going on right now. I don't think I'm ready to teach people something I haven't learned." But what she was picking up on was that I could touch people and feel what they were experiencing. So I came back the next day, and I was just putting my hands on people and I just explained what I could see or feel. And she's like, "You need to promise me ... " I was like, "You know what, I've heard all of this before, my friend. I have heard all of this before." So I went back to the Netherlands to university, and I was doing my 30 days. You have to do this self Reiki thing after you do Reiki.   Eva Williams: (08:45) And during that period of time, I was like, "I'm not meant to be an architect, I'm not meant to be doing what I'm doing. And so I need to go." And so I gave away everything I owned and I said to my dad, "I'm free again." And he's like, "Yeah, great. You left high school twice and now you're leaving an international honours university. This is a great run you're having over here. I hope you put my amethyst back."   Tahnee: (09:07) Yeah. So proud.   Eva Williams: (09:10) He's like, "You'll face... " I'm joking. And he was like, "Okay, look, you've always been who you are, no one's stopping that. But what are you going to do? You should have a bit of a plan." And I was like, "Yeah, well, what do I have to my name?" He's laughing. He's like, "What do you have to your name? You're a broke student. You have nothing but a ticket home to New Zealand that I will give you until you're 22." So I was like, "All right, great. I'll take it." So I went to New Zealand for three weeks and I went for a Reiki session. And this woman, she did that same thing, she's like, "You don't need me, you need Barbara and you need Jan."   Eva Williams: (09:43) And I'm like, "Okay, send me the names." So I started exploring all these different modalities of incredible light work, just incredible, incredible things while I was there. I go down to the ocean and dolphins would come and visit me, and then I'd go see the healers, and they're like, "You called those dolphins." I'm like, "Okay. All right. Let's calm down." But now I'm like, "We all call the dolphins." Now, I'm like, "Of course, I called the dolphins."   Tahnee: (10:07) They're our people.   Eva Williams: (10:08) My allies. They came to me in my hour of need. It was just a beautiful time. And then one day, in my heart, I just heard... I was waiting for that moment where you hear it from within, because I have a very active mind, so I can make up whatever I want to hear. But I heard Melbourne from my heart. And I was like, "Okay, that's where it's going to be." So I called my parents, I'm like, "I'm going to Melbourne." They were like, "Oh, thank God, she's got a plan." And I went there and I thought I was going to stay doing something graphic design or something design oriented, because that's a big part of my passion in life.   Eva Williams: (10:42) And I found the Australian Shiatsu College, and I found my shakes. I found my Sufi shakes. And once I found these two things, everything else fell in line. Yes, I was initiated into Kriya yoga over when I was 21, which was amazing. When I was 20, still finding my feet, I hadn't found the college yet, I hadn't found my shakes yet. I used to lie in my bedroom listening to singing balls. And that was this one guy who I just loved, very camp, but amazing, but just incredible sound healer, just such an amazing heart and soul. And he would just put all this water in a bow and he'd be like, "These are the dolphin's ball, the dolphins are coming to sing us."   Eva Williams: (11:26) And he would hit it and he would play it. And it was like, oh my God, this man, I don't even know where he comes from, but he's amazing." So one day I fell asleep, listening to this and I woke up and how you know YouTube just plays. And I saw this image on my screen, and I looked at it and it was this blue light and this golden man. And it just said, "The golden body of the Yogi." And I knew in that moment this is why I'm on the planet. This is why I'm on the planet. And so then I found out who that was, and that was an image of Babaji. And so then I found out about Kriya yoga.   Eva Williams: (12:00) And it's interesting because when I had looked for yoga schools in India years before, the only ones that I had found that I wanted to go to were the Kriya yoga schools. And so I became initiated into the Kriya yoga lineage of the Babaji and then his disciple Lahiri Mahasaya, and then Sri Yukteswar, and Paramahamsa Yogananda. And that was the beginning of things unlocking for me. And then I found Shiatsu in oriental medicine, and I went on to study Japanese acupuncture. And then I also found a teacher, a female teacher, and she did a beautiful mixture of yoga and Daoist work with the Jade egg. And then through the studies that I was doing and her even teaching in the same building, I just made this place my home and we'd get all these amazing international practitioners.   Eva Williams: (12:50) I found myself picking up exactly what I needed from that, including doula training and all sorts of things like this that were going on in the space. And then I worked at a Japanese bath house after I graduated for five years or so, I think it was, or something around that. And I really was so lucky because even if you want to rack up hours as a practitioner, it's very hard to find a place to be doing flat out work as Shiatsu practitioner just right out of school. But I was able to rack up at 10,000 hours really quickly in my first, I would say, first six or seven years of work.   Eva Williams: (13:27) And then I went to Bali, I got married. I went to Bali for a honeymoon, and then I just decided I was going to move to Dubai because it was something I really wanted to do. And then about a year into being in Dubai, I was just lying in the bathtub and I just had this full download through my body. And these images came to me and all this stuff and I was just being told what to do like, "You need to write this down, you need to go and get these things." And I was told to build out a whole altar. So I had this massive altar. And I was just sitting in front of it like, "Okay, I now live in a church. What next?"   Eva Williams: (14:06) My husband, he was in Iraq at the time, so he wasn't home. So I was like, "Nobody's going to know about my weird little mat?" And then when he came home, he's like, "That's a lot of candles. Do you need to light all of them at once? Are we doing a séance? What's happening here?" But as I was doing this, the spirits of these different plants I've been told to buy exactly 13 were coming to me, people were sending me things. I was finding things that I'd had in my library for a long time, I'd just never seen them with that particular glow or from that angle, that a transmission was coming through.   Eva Williams: (14:41) And I basically just sat down and I wrote the 10 transmissions of level one of Golden Lotus, which is the eight extraordinary vessels and the 12 main meridians. Unless you do a practitioner training, I don't do Triple Warmer and Pericardium. So it's basically just the five elements. So water, wood, earth, metal as it were, and fire. And then the eight extraordinary. But we do the Chong Mai twice because it has the main vessel and then two other vessels. And for the purpose of female sexual cultivation, it's important actually to separate those two. And then from there, it just started unlocking, like level two became the three gates of orgasm and just the content was just pouring down.   Eva Williams: (15:28) And it was a mixture between a really pure transmission I was being guided to and led to, and then a really deep weaving of just years and years. I'm very, very autodidactic because I didn't go to high school even, so my ability to sit and research and work if I have the impetus is quite high. If not, guess what?   Tahnee: (15:54) Very low. I can relate to that.   Eva Williams: (16:00) I'm like, "Let's have a show of hands." I'm pretty sure everyone's like, "Yeah, that's a... '' So I was able to just channel this, and then it just was really natural that these two modalities, the way it's structured is that the level one is really about working with the Yoni egg, so the Jade egg. It's really about clearing your own body, detoxing and recentralizing through the pelvis. So clearing trauma in the pelvis, opening the sensitivity of the pelvis, and really weaving in the whole rest of the body to a pelvic alignment. So beginning to really understand all of these different reflex zones that we have in the body that all relate to the pelvis.   Eva Williams: (16:43) And I don't just mean the internal reflex zones of the different organ systems, I also mean really beginning to explore somatically the balance between the sacrum and the buttock and the stone and the breasts, or how there's different alignments of your pelvis and your jaw and your mouth. And there's multiple different ways that we can set up these reflexologies that allow us to have a sense that we're hinging from the pelvis. So it's very much about coming into that, and it's not supposed to be... It's supposed to basically teach you how to come into contact with your own energy, to disperse it through your whole body so that you can actually have proper tantra experiences and also to self-regulate.   Eva Williams: (17:23) Because the level two work, it's almost like we go from a pelvic central model out to the body. And then the next level is all more explicit. So it's like self-pleasure practises. Or if we do like a retreat, we'll do some touch exchange practises. If you come to my clinic, I will do internal work at times, things like this. And so that's very triggering work. And I've seen, because I have been in many of these schools with sexual energy, the lack of self-regulation that is taught before highly activating practises come into play. And I didn't like that.   Eva Williams: (18:02) And so while I didn't necessarily plan the way that Golden Lotus was channelled, it is a very deep reflection of the beliefs in the general that I've taken, which is that we need to prepare our body before we do all this highly sexual activating practise. Because otherwise, I think one of the big things in the tantra communities and things that's happened is, it's just become all about sex dressed up as something spiritual, you know?   Tahnee: (18:26) Oh, I know.   Eva Williams: (18:28) You're like, "Really? I've never come across this before."   Tahnee: (18:31) I'm just laughing because I spent some time at Agama Yoga in Thailand I have never laughed so hard. We did a 10 day silent meditation and we were asked to abstain from sex for 10 days. And every day, someone would ask, "I really feel like I need to have sex today. Could I possibly not have... " I was like, "So you guys can't go 10 days without touching yourself or someone else." I've never seen anything like it. So if you love Agama, I found it a really toxic culture. It was almost high school. I was really shocked.   Eva Williams: (19:10) It's infamous. It's infamous for this. My teacher went there, one of my teachers was there and she told me all about it. And then even recently, I was sitting with a friend and I was mentioning some of these things, and she was like, "Oh my gosh. One time, when I was at the very beginning of my path, I went to this place." And as soon as she said it, I knew. I was like, "I know where you were talking about. I've never been there myself, but it's infamous."   Tahnee: (19:37) It was an experience. Yes, I hear you.   Eva Williams: (19:37) I think that this thing is also, I think a lot of people come into tantra with a concept of partner base in mind, and the way that I was trained, particularly with my teachers in this more Sufi tradition and things like this, I never went into any of this work looking for my sexuality. I never thought I would only work with women, I never thought I would be working with birth. This was not my aim. My aim was just to heal people. I worked on everyone. And ultimately, my aim was just to find God, I just wanted to have a very deep spiritual experience or a series of those. And so that over time guided into that direction, I just saw the level of care and sobriety that was cultivated within me before putting me onto that path.   Eva Williams: (20:30) The level of deep devotion and sobriety to my own self-development was paramount. And so there wasn't a sense of like there was a real sense that I wasn't allowed to just mess around, I wasn't allowed to just go to whatever workshop I wanted or something. I was really guided very strongly as to what is an integrity and what is not an integrity as far as transmissions go. And I'm very grateful for that. At least it worked for me within my system of integrity. So then basically it brought the birth of this beautiful work and I think that people love it when they do it, and I think people do feel that they can regulate themselves through it.   Eva Williams: (21:12) And that work for me, very, very naturally falls into birth work. If you are learning how to move and you're learning all these different ways of detoxing and opening your body and then you're learning these three gates of orgasm, which is very specifically sent into the pelvis, so then we are really going into the semantics of the pelvis alone. If you're doing all of that work, that is the birth prep is just extraordinary. And so I developed that into a birthing programme as well, because we need more of that. I think that you're not really taught how much prep goes into birth until you're pregnant.   Tahnee: (21:48) And it's really not a great time then to be exploring.   Eva Williams: (21:52) No. Not at all because it's traumatic.   Tahnee: (21:53) Because of your trauma.   Eva Williams: (21:53) You can definitely do some work on it then, but you need some guidance and holding through that because unwinding trauma can take a really long time, the somatic body's not quick   Tahnee: (22:10) Not fast, very slow.   Eva Williams: (22:17) It really likes to take its time.   Tahnee: (22:17) Oh man, it's so true. And I think what is so interesting about what you're speaking to though with coming into birth work, I know for me, I did muntuk's work and I was having internal work there and working with eggs and clearing those, that whole period of time was big for me. It was unpleasant in some ways and really beautiful and powerful in other ways. But I came to birth and I remember thinking like, "If I hadn't done that work, I wouldn't be able to hold myself through pregnancy and birth the way I've been able to, through pregnancy and birth."   Tahnee: (22:56) And you are speaking to this sense of sobriety and this sense of strength and just the ability to hold your own energy and read your own energy and tune into it, I think that's the piece for women going in and it's like, you're going to have people try and tell you things that you have to filter through, your truth filters. You have to make decisions around your sovereignty and around your care that you probably... These are big decisions and you don't have much context for them usually. I know for me even being fairly educated, there's just stuff I was like, "Do I have to do this? What are the rules?"   Tahnee: (23:32) And I think if you don't have that strong foundation, I think that's stuff golden lotus, it sounds like it just provides that container for women to start to build that trust in themselves so they can go and then really be open to what is honestly the most incredible experience you can have as a woman. I know woman choose not to birth, but for me, profound, but a lot of preparation too, I think in my experience.   Eva Williams: (23:58) I think it's really underestimated how much prep it takes. And I think it's also, to understand that you've got so much content that you want to read about the spiritual, about the physiological, but also how much you've got to inform yourself around just-   Tahnee: (24:13) Practical.   Eva Williams: (24:14) Yeah. Just random medical stuff, because we are taught to just, if someone's wearing a white coat, they know. They wouldn't suggest it if it wasn't for your best.   Tahnee: (24:23) Is that true?   Eva Williams: (24:23) That's not true. And it's sad. It's so sad to acknowledge that, but that's unfortunately the truth. And so I'm in the process of putting together a programme now which really takes people, basically it's like a month-by-month programme. So you can buy the modules as a month or you can buy them as a whole. And it's got workbooks and meditations. It addresses the emotional, the spiritual, how far along your baby is and where they're growing.   Eva Williams: (24:57) And it really also, for me, there's like this very strong concept of, you have the mother, you have the child, and then you have the mother-child unit, this third that's being generated and they call it mama toto in Swahili, this concept of the mother-child. And to build a bridge between these things because one of the things that I've noticed in for example, certain modalities like APA, like the pre and perinatal psychology, people who do fantastic work is that one of the main... how do I explain this for people who don't maybe come from this context? Someone asked me recently, how can you tell if your doula is a good doula? How can you choose a good doula?   Eva Williams: (25:44) How many stars are there in the sky, my friend? And then immediately it came to me, I know it really... And I realised that the doula that I really, we don't even call ourselves doula's anymore because we consider ourselves more birth keepers or birth workers because the work gets so close to midwifery at a certain stage that the idea that you are not advocating for a client or all these sorts of things, it doesn't have a place when you get to a certain level of birth work. And these women, all of them speak to the baby individually to the mother. And immediately I realise, "Oh, if your doula will have an individual relationship to the baby, as they do to you, but they are there for you, to me, that's a good doula."   Eva Williams: (26:38) And I know that sounds strange, but I come very much from this concept that the baby is always the most conscious being in the room, born or unborn. And so if we can begin to actually... What I would love for more women to know is that a lot of women really get bogged down with this idea like, "It's me, it's my body. Yes, my partner's helping me, but I have to carry this. I feel heavy, this baby's relying on me." And so there becomes almost a scarcity of this really deep sense of drudgery or something related, or just a deep sense of lack of support that becomes related to birth.   Eva Williams: (27:10) And one of the things that I think is really important for women to understand is neither on a physiological level, not spiritual level are you alone? This baby is the one that will release the hormone that will tell your body and your stomach when to dilate. This child will send stem cells to heal your body into your blood. This child is there for you, and this child is leading this labour actually. So this child is bringing you energy and bringing you protection, and bringing you gifts of healing. And this moment is actually for you, it's not happening to you, it's happening for you.   Eva Williams: (27:49) So the moment that that child is born is your rebirth as well, it is your moment to also let go and let something new come through. And I think that interconnection, that interplay is what allows women to not just trust their body, which is one of the thing that I wish more people could establish prior to falling pregnant, we should call it rising pregnant, "I rose pregnant."   Tahnee: (28:14) It's beautiful.   Eva Williams: (28:16) But also that they begin to trust not just their body, but the baby. So they're like, "Yeah, my body knows how to do this and this, baby's got this, I've got it. Our relationship got it and my body's got it. So this is what's going to happen." And just really leading from that place. And for many people, that might sound fantastical, but the more that we're going to understand birth, the more that we look at what's happening with the stem cells, the more that we look at the neurology and the physiology of labour itself and the more that if you have done that previously, you'll know that this is real, this is actually what's happening, that there is this very deep exchange of support.   Eva Williams: (28:56) And that's what I think is the most powerful thing is when a woman trusts so innately in her body and in the child that has chosen her to take this journey, that bond is what's leading the labour. I just think that that's very powerful. So the course that I've developed is to try to assist with that, and then obviously is also bringing different movements for different trimesters because different parts of the body obviously get affected at different times, and hypnobirthing scripts and of dolphin and whale stuff going on there, because you know, our allies.   Tahnee: (29:31) It's so funny all the stuff you're speaking about. With my daughter, she's five now, nearly five, but I had a dolphin come to me while I was pregnant with her in the water. And she had me through the whole pregnancy, guiding everything. I was doing body work at the time and I had this really strong download that I had to stop. And I remember contacting my teacher, who's the female teacher of Chi Nei Tsang from Mantak Chia. She was like, "If the baby's telling you to stop your stuff," and I had this golden thread with her and she was this little golden being, so probably about, I think around two dissolved completely. It got weaker and weaker over time. But just all of that stuff...   Tahnee: (30:17) And I had a lot of stuff going on in my life when I was pregnant with her and she just held me like I was... I remember thinking, "I should be really stressed out right now, but I feel really safe and really held through this." And it took me a little while to realise that that was her contributing that to my experience. And I think that trust is something she gave me, which I think is a really beautiful thing. I'm halfway through my pregnancy now, I'm four months, but this pregnancies been really different for me. So it's interesting. I'm interested to see how they play out, because I haven't had that same sense of baby protection or strong baby messages.   Tahnee: (31:03) But I'm interested in that space because I think it's hard to talk about that stuff as a woman, the midwives I had were very practical, wonderful women, but they were very grounded and of the earth. And you had a textbook pregnancy and a textbook birth, well done? And I was like, "Yeah, but what about all this cool stuff that's happening to me?" And they were like, "We don't want to talk about that stuff." I was like, "Okay."   Eva Williams: (31:33) It's a shame actually because it's weird thing-   Tahnee: (31:35) I'm glad you're here.   Eva Williams: (31:35) What did you say?   Tahnee: (31:38) That I'm glad you're here in the world.   Eva Williams: (31:41) Dolphins are so important in birth. That's so important. People who are not getting this message, I'm like, "You guys have to... " I always tell my clients, I'm like, "Just Google." I'll be like, "Yeah, the dolphin midwives." And then everyone at the table laughed. I'm like, "Huh." Wait until you see it.   Tahnee: (31:57) It's true, Hawaii.   Eva Williams: (31:57) I know. And then I'm like, "Google it. You Google dolphin midwife." And people come back, "Whoa." I'm like, "Yeah, that's actually a"-   Tahnee: (32:01) And wasn't they doing it in Russia, the Google something?   Eva Williams: (32:05) They did, yes. Birthing to being, Alana's work was incredible.   Tahnee: (32:08) Because Jeannine Parvati Baker talks about it a lot in her work, and some other people have talked about studying.   Eva Williams: (32:16) I think the woman who found a birth into being, she had a centre in the Caspian sea where the dolphins would come in and people would just be freebirthing in the water, which is wild. And so we have over here, birth it's a very obstetric-run American imported system. It's pretty brutal. So we are looking at different birth centres talk of shifting some things around birth here because Dubai is like a playground in terms of, they're so open to new ideas. And people may not think of them like that from the outside, but they really are.   Eva Williams: (32:56) They're so innovative and there's some very special, very, very, very special energy to the Emiratis to the Bedouin people, just something very special. So we were looking at working with a very beautiful woman whose work I incorporate a lot into mine, her name's Dr. Gallery. And she has some beautiful, gentle birth clinics in London and things like this. And she said, "Oh yes, I'd love to come out and do something with you guys in Dubai, but I only want to work with the dolphins." And she's a full OB/GYN. And I was like, "You and me, this is going to work so well." I was like, "Scrap all the land we've found, we're going to the ocean."   Eva Williams: (33:43) I was like, "This is the future of it. This is the future of birth." And I think that there's a lot of beautiful places in Cairo and around Egypt as well like in Sharm El Sheikh and in the Red Sea that we might begin to also see really beautiful work with the dolphins popping up. And I know that a couple of people that I know have wanted to do things like this in the North of Ibiza, and South, but the problem is the water's very cold over there, so it's not really something that can work as well. But in these waters, when the dolphin comes to the baby, it is telling you that you are going to give birth soon. Maybe in this instance, I don't know where you were in your pregnancy.   Tahnee: (34:18) No. I was heavily pregnant. My husband I got engaged there, and we got married there. It's this very special spot for us. And I was standing probably naval deep in water and it came, honestly, I was terrified. I was not like, "Oh my God." I was like, "Ah, I think a dolphin is coming at me." And it whooshed so close to me. My husband was out deep and he turned around and saw the dolphin and was like, "Whoa." And then there was a whole pod behind him. But it broke off and came and checked me out. And they can sonar heartbeats and stuff so I was thinking it must have been checking me out and being like, "What are you doing?"   Eva Williams: (35:00) So what they do is when you're very heavily pregnant, if they come towards you and if they put the nose toward the belly or come very close to you, usually you're always going to give birth.   Tahnee: (35:08) I thought it was going to scare me.   Eva Williams: (35:08) Oh, what a lovely experience.   Tahnee: (35:14) I was not like, "Oh my God." Seriously, I was like, "Holy crap, is this safe?"   Eva Williams: (35:18) I know. Every time I was in New Zealand and dolphins came as well, I was swimming in the water and I just shot bowl upright and I was standing and I was like, "There's something in the water." And I'd hear these voices like, "It's okay." I'm like, "It's definitely not fucking okay." My instinct body was like, "This is not okay." And my spiritual body was like, "It's going to be okay." And every part of me was like, "That's fine, but I'm still going to stand because I can run, and those, they can swim. This is not my territory."   Tahnee: (35:45) It's true.   Eva Williams: (35:49) It's so true. But they can activate the labour. They can do this really strongly by communicating with the child as well. It's something very, very powerful.   Tahnee: (35:58) Super cool. And the indigenous people here where we are, they believe that they are their people. Every time I've been in any ceremony or anything they will speak to the whales and the dolphins here as being ancestors.   Eva Williams: (36:10) Yeah. They bring children.   Tahnee: (36:14) Yeah. It makes a lot of sense.   Eva Williams: (36:18) I believe they bring the children because they don't just turn up when a woman's very pregnant to assist in the physiological activation of the hormonal aspects of labour, many, many women will see dolphins on the night they conceive or at the time or just before conception. And whenever a woman's like, "Yeah, we're trying to get pregnant. Oh, I saw dolphins." I'm like, "You go have baby." I had a friend and she saw porpoises. They're not even dolphins, I was like, "You go have a baby." And they did the ultrasound and they tuned it back to that time.   Tahnee: (36:49) Perhaps they're related to a dolphin somehow.   Eva Williams: (36:51) I'm like, "It could be a manatees, I don't care, you're having a baby." I'm joking.   Tahnee: (36:59) An orca. Let's not get too crazy. But it's okay. Tell me about this primary thing. That's interesting, because I know if you're not aware of this, I don't know if we've spoken about this on the podcast yet, so the hormonal cascade that the baby triggers in the mother, this is all these beautiful juicy hormones like oxytocin and things that, A, make birth less painful, which is a good thing. And B, obviously also the whole cascade of uterine contractions, breast milk coming in, all of these things. So the baby actually triggers that. And one of the things that happens a lot in our culture is we induce, or if there's an obstetrician that my midwife shared with me who wants to induce everyone at 38 weeks in a hospital near us.   Tahnee: (37:40) And this kind of thing just terrifies me, and I have friends who've waited 43 weeks plus for their babies to come.   Eva Williams: (37:48) Especially plus babies.   Tahnee: (37:51) My daughter was 42 weeks on the day. And I just think, can you speak a little bit to women who might have fear around, "I'm getting pressure from my OB/GYN or my midwife to induce." I know it's a real slippery topic, but at least speak to that.   Eva Williams: (38:06) No, no. It's not. I don't think it's slippery at all, I think it's underdressed. And it's interesting, I remember, so here they've got DHA, the Dubai Health Authority, has a policy around a certain time. Even if your OB/GYN is more liberal, there's a certain red tape that they can't really cross. And so I remember the first hospital birth I did in Dubai, home birth is illegal here by the way. It's actually not illegal to give birth at home, it's illegal for anyone to assist, anyone who has a licence issued by the government could get it taken away if they assist you.   Eva Williams: (38:44) So if you bring in a midwife from overseas or for me, I'm not an OB/GYN or a midwife, so I'm also not really assisting people with home births here because I don't think that's necessarily a great thing to do. But if someone were in labour and it was progressing really quickly, rather than stress them out and shove them into a car, I think I know what I'd probably end up doing. But it's an interesting thing because I remember the very first one I attended, the OB/GYN was just pressuring my clients so hard and she was outside and afterwards she was crying.   Eva Williams: (39:20) She's like, "I don't know what to do." And so obviously, as a birth worker, I've got 117 different things to pull out of the cupboard because I'm acupuncture, Im like okay acupuncture, we've been doing Homoeopathy week, 36 or 38 at that point, let's try some different homoeopathy, maybe something that's addressing more of the fears and emotions. Let's do massage, let's do the dirty three, hot food, a glass of wine and have some sex, all of that. And then also internal work, massage the cervix, check how it phased someone is, just at that stage of pregnancy. So we did a really beautiful ceremony of her husband and her on the bed, and I did the internal work. It was very dark. We put on music.   Eva Williams: (40:10) And we just really checked out what was happening, what the engagement was. So not a vaginal exam, but just to actually see, and definitely not a sweep or something, none of that stuff I'm trained in, but just really actually to feel how the effacement was going, how the pelvis was feeling, what was actually getting caught up in the pelvic. Was there something caught up there or was she just not ready? And for me, it was really clear that she's just not ready. It's her first baby, it's 39 weeks and the baby is just not ready. It's not coming yet.   Eva Williams: (40:38) I think that what's difficult about getting pressure... I remember after this situation, I gave them all these techniques. I said, "We're going to make a plan. Don't worry." And they felt better, and I went to my car and I just fucking sat in my car and cried for 20 minutes. The sense of stress and pressure, and it's not even my baby, that happens in that room when a doctor strong arms you and tells you that what they know is right, when it may not feel right for you, is so intense. And I know that doctors don't fully understand that. I know that OB/GYNs, not all of them fully understand that. I have the great privilege of working with many who do.   Eva Williams: (41:17) And I remember during this labour, I was sitting out in the hallway and I was just crying. And the doctor came to me and she's like, "Why are you crying?" I'm like, "Dude, you're pushing so hard. This is ridiculous. This is going to end really not well." And then she started tearing up and sat down next to me. And she's like, "It's just a lot of pressure." And we were just having this full heart to heart, just weeping in the hallway. Like, "What the fuck?" But it managed to buy me another 48 hours for my clients, which is amazing.   Tahnee: (41:46) Good work.   Eva Williams: (41:52) It's so much pressure. It's so much pressure. The thing is that there's very little that actually requires induction. Things that do not require induction, your baby is too big for your pelvis, it's a big baby, your baby has passed 40 weeks, meconium has passed, the cord is around the neck. These are not reasons for induction and they're not reasons for C-sections either. It's just very intense. I think some something that people don't understand is that an OB/GYN or a medical professional on your birth is someone that you want there in an emergency situation, they have no requirement to witness physiological birth. They have none. They do not have to witness a single, natural, physiological birth as part of their training, they have to do surgery.   Eva Williams: (42:48) So their whole frame of reference is coming that birth as an emergency. They have never had to sit. If you ask an OB/GYN what's a normal to long labour, I had an OB/GYN tell me that 10 hours was a long labour. I'm like, "Jesus Christ, what are you guys having? Have you got a slip slide set up out here." I was on a midwife tour recently in Aspen, someone's like, "How does labour take?" And the midwife's like, "It can take up to two hours." I was like, "What?" If it's your fourth baby and you're at nine centimetres. It's just ridiculous.   Tahnee: (43:19) Wow.   Eva Williams: (43:19) Yeah, I know. I know. And I always think to myself like, "Wow, I think that 40 hours of fairly active labour is long." I think that labour from early labour onward can go on for a week. That's the sort of time I'm willing to just give a woman and her body to just dilate at its pace and do its thing, and it's just unheard of. So if people are getting pressure to induce and it's funny, because we've made this thing over here and we're not doing it yet, but it's a couple of doulas and I have this, it's kind of our joke, but I also want to do it. And it's going to be for women who for partners, 36 and 37 weeks onward, and it's going to be the induction group.   Eva Williams: (44:01) Basically, you all come together and we watch a funny movie or a beautiful movie about birth, and you get a glass of red wine. We're not getting hammered over here, but you get a glass of red wine. We have some food, whether it's Indian or Thai, something with a little bit of spice, a little bit Mexican or something, and you just share. And you can share if it's stressful, you can share if it's funny, we share content and information. And then if you want to stay for the second part, we teach something like certain techniques, maybe not actually internal, but certain techniques like clitoral stroking or labial massage or hip massage or things like that that your partner can do that will assist in your hips getting ready and things like that.   Eva Williams: (44:42) And just from 37 weeks on, everyone is welcome to just join, come, have that glass of wine, just get a move on. Do a bit of dancing, have a bit of laughter. Because the group, you share more pheromonal energy. Because that's something that isn't readily shared, adrenaline and cortisol inhibit oxytocin. So if you're stressed, you cannot go into natural labour, they inhibit one another. So if women are feeling stressed about being induced, the thing that they really need is they need to disconnect from the timeline of intensity, they really need the opportunity to disconnect from that.   Eva Williams: (45:17) So if the doctor's pressuring you and says, "Okay, well take your time, but I need to see you again in two or three days." Don't go, don't go in two or three days. If they need to see you again, they can see you in a week. All they're going to do is an ultrasound and whatever, maybe a sweep. Give yourself the space that your body needs. And also, really, really, really take your homoeopathy from 36 weeks, from 36 weeks, be taking your homoeopathy and be taking just this very gentle way of beginning to release the stress on the system. Take the aconite, take the arnica.   Eva Williams: (46:00) Another thing that's really important, and again, this all goes back to prep, because if you're doing everything at the last moment, you're going to be dealing with a lot. In the programme that I run, around third 30 to 34 weeks, in between this time before your GBS test, we explore different internal works. And not necessarily me doing that, but maybe it's related to sex with the husband, maybe it's related to self-pleasure, maybe it's just internal gaze and interception kind of meditation, but we start unblocking and unlocking anything that might be held in the pelvis.   Eva Williams: (46:37) And then also, if you have a chiro, there's the Webster technique, or if you have a Bowen therapist who can do the sacral... There's a series of sacral releases that they can do. Anything you can do to prepare your body, to feel really good and open, speak to your cervix, ripen your cervix, yourself, speak to it, see beautiful pink light moving through it. All of these things work, they really, really work. And what doesn't work is being pressured into having a baby, it just doesn't fucking work. There's no evidence to support that it's ever worked.   Eva Williams: (47:11) It's insane, even with the foetal monitoring, even that, there's the only proof that it actually has any benefit is it there's no proof. The only thing that it's actually done is increased C-section rates. And so, these sorts of things, we have to just be really mindful of what the outcome is. Is the outcome an alive baby or is the outcome an empowered woman who knows herself and knows her body and can recover in the postpartum process because she's actually connected to the child, because oxytocin is also a huge part of recovery. It's what's bringing the colostrum and the breast milk, it's what's actually involuting the uterus.   Eva Williams: (47:52) So if we don't have this connection from the outside, if we're having those issues, then we also face a much longer recovery period. And that's when you really begin to see from an emotional perspective, from a body work perspective. If I see diastasis, like a herniated diastasis or something like this, for me, that's always that the woman has been opened in the birth process, but she hasn't had the closing afterwards, so she has no centre. Can you imagine what it would be doing to your back, to not have your rectus abdominis working? Basically, your back would be as stiff as a board, and that's a woman who feels that she's not supported. She hasn't been supported through that process.   Eva Williams: (48:37) I don't know, this stuff is so intuitive and natural, it feels so natural to say, but we aren't there as a culture of medicine and we're not there as a culture of birth yet either, and it's difficult. And there's a way I just want to say to people, just protect kept yourself. But I actually love working with OB/GYNs and I do love working with the medical system when they get it right, and they very often, if you find the right people and places, they do get it right. I had a doula complain to me the other day about how, at this one hospital that's really great here, the midwife didn't even turn up and the baby just came out.   Eva Williams: (49:17) And I was like, "Is this a complaint? This is a complaint that the baby just naturally came out and the mother caught her home own baby?" I'm sorry, I don't feel the same level of stress around this that you feel. It's so beautiful to hear about less managed births. And this is for those people who are being pushed toward induction, this is called active management, basically, of expectations in relationship to doctors. And another thing to understand is that 40 weeks doesn't really mean much.   Tahnee: (49:52) So arbitrary.   Eva Williams: (49:54) It's insane. I'm not standardised by that. Some hospitals do it from the first day of your last period, some do it from the last day of your last period? It's just ridiculous and there's no evidence that proves that. I think of 10% of children come on their due day.   Tahnee: (50:11) Not good odds-   Eva Williams: (50:12) I know, right. Yes. And everyone wants to be fucking Natalie Portman or Kate Moss or something. And guess what, 1%. You know what I mean? It's one of these expectations that we set up. We are lying to women when we tell them that they should be fitting that mould, and we are taking away from them the opportunity for them to make their own mould of what it looks like. So contentious. It doesn't actually feel that contentious, it feels really straightforward, but whatever.   Tahnee: (50:39) Well, it's interesting because I think one thing for me with birth too, it felt like... I don't want to be in the feminine/masculine, for me, time when I'm in a feminine space, linear time is not a thing. It's not real, it doesn't exist and there's this just natural unfolding of things as they are. My feeling around birth was very much like we're trying to apply this very linear masculine dimension to it and it doesn't exist like that. I think this idea of 10 moons or being able to see it in this sense of it's with them and it's a flow, but it's not something that's going to happen on a day. I'm struggling with it right now, people are like, "What's your due date?"   Tahnee: (51:33) And I'm, "Well, I don't know, sometime in April." And they want a due date. Well, I do know it's April 1st, but I don't believe my baby's going to come on April 1st.   Eva Williams: (51:44) I can tell you what I do always is I just take the full moon of that month. And I was like, "She's not due, then she's due in the beginning of the month." I'm like, "I don't care."   Tahnee: (51:56) That's when they come.   Eva Williams: (51:57) The baby is now officially due on the full moon. Baby's like a full moon, that's what's happening. It doesn't mean we won't prepare and I don't necessarily calculate my weeks from that, I'll do it from that ultrasound or whatever. And the programme that we are doing is a 10-moon programme, it's 10 modules and they're 10 moons. Yeah, it's just recognising that children have a rhythm, it's not something that we can set or determine. That rhythm is related to obviously the tides of our own life. Some babies like a new moon. There's no set rules, you can't apply them one way or another, like you said.   Eva Williams: (52:33) And I love this idea that, look, birth is very much about learning about abundance, about our own abundance, that we can actually create a whole other being. It's this radiant space that we enter into. Adding scarcity of time to that means that a woman feels a scarcity of space. And if she's feeling a scarcity of time and space, as these two things do manifest together within her own body, you're taking away the whole dimension and realm that she needs to live inside of during her birth, like you said. It's this feminine space. And that doesn't mean that we can't have a plan during pregnancy, it doesn't mean that certain practises won't be better at different times.   Eva Williams: (53:12) It doesn't mean any of that, but it's the invasiveness of how we treat birth needs to stop. I'm working on a new project right now, and I'm very excited about it and I can't say much about it, but what I can say is that one of the main focuses of it is the removal of incredibly invasive techniques. And some of them aren't even necessarily invasive, they're just fucking disgusting like the gestational diabetes test.   Tahnee: (53:40) Oh, that was the only fucking thing I did last time. And I was like, "This is the most sugar I've had in my entire adult life." Maybe as a kid, I gorged on Lollies, but other than that." That's the only time I was sick in my pregnancy was after that.   Eva Williams: (53:54) Yes, so many women have said to me like, "Oh yeah, definitely, the most traumatic thing of my pregnancy was that time."   Tahnee: (54:01) I was like, "Fucking hell, guys." It's like nine Coca-Colas or something. I'm like, "Great."   Eva Williams: (54:07) And it's not necessary. It's not necessary because there's so many other ways to remediate or even to tell. And what was so funny is, I was with a client recently and she had to shift OB/GYNs because on her due date, the original OB/GYN is not going to be there. And so we had just gone to that OB/GYN and said, "Look, we're opting out of this." And she was ready to fight. She's like, "I don't want this person." I was like, "Just chill. I'm sure they'll be fine with it." Don't go in for a battle, that's one thing. All birth workers, everyone, just don't go in for a battle. If you have to put your armour on, do it, but don't go in for a battle. And the doctor was like, "Huh. I've been in birth for a long time and I've seen a lot of incredible advancements and devices and ultrasound and all sorts of things really. And yet they still haven't managed to make something less disgusting than that drink. That's okay. Don't worry about it."   Eva Williams: (55:01) Even an OB/GYN was like, "Yeah, you'd think we'd gotten to this level, but really it's just Lucozade, sugar." And then we had to go to this other one and really communicate once again like, "Hey, the preference is for this off the table." And she just was like, "That's the most disgusting drink in the world, I wouldn't push that test on anyone." I was like, "Wow."   Tahnee: (55:19) Amazing. That's a good change in culture. [crosstalk 00:55:22]. What's your rate on ultrasounds in general? I haven't spoken about this much on the podcast either, but I do get asked about it a lot, and there's the one side of it where people are like, "It's good to know and it gives you that reassurance." And then there's the other side, which is probably more of the side I'm on where it's like, "What would it tell me that actually... What benefit would that information actually give me?" So I'm curious as to your take on that as a birth keeper.   Eva Williams: (55:53) Well, it's a great topic. One thing I can definitely say is, you know your body, you've done a lot of work with your body. I have also clients who are just super on it, and yet sometimes, and I'm thinking of one person specific, that if a woman, for example, has a miscarriage or something like this, even if she isn't someone who would naturally or usually lean toward wanting ultrasound or something like that in that early part of the next pregnancy, it brings an enormous amount of relief to know that everything's going healthy.   Tahnee: (56:38) Reinsurance.   Eva Williams: (56:38) Exactly. If you have chromosomal issues in your life, those 12 week tests, in your family, for example, or even the 20-week morphology exams, they can bring a lot of knowledge. So from my perspective, what I usually say to women when they say, "What do you think is necessary, blah, blah." I said, "The first thing that's necessary is anything that will bring you comfort. If your level of comfort and certainty and anxiety will drop with each or any of those visits, then those are the ones that are necessary, because your emotional and mental wellbeing is more important to the baby's health and growth than anything that an ultrasound is going to do to your body. That's my perspective.   Eva Williams: (57:25) And then usually, they just say that the main tests that are important are your morphology, your 20, 21-week scan, and that's really just to see if there's any... For those of you who don't know, that's not really an ultrasound, it's a full building out of, they check all of the different organs.   Tahnee: (57:44) It's pretty cool. I was like, "Whoa. There's a kidney and there's a... "   Eva Williams: (57:53) They go in, they check all the tissues, they check the formation of the organs. This is technology that I'm grateful that we have because it can put a lot of decision making power into people's hands. And simultaneously, I know a lot of people who aren't down for it, they're like, "No way, that's even worse than an ultrasound. That's super intense for the baby, blah, blah, blah." For me, it's all about comfort. And I have had a couple birth workers recently and clients saying, they're like, "Well, I know you're very pro natural birth and this is not."   Eva Williams: (58:26) I'm like, "Hang on a minute. I'm not really for or against anything, I just don't really have a role to play. If you're planning a C-section... " I know what the body is capable of, and those are personal experiences that I've had. You can't take that away from me or I cannot pretend that I don't know what the physical body can do and what we may need to train for, but can actually get what this experience can be. So I can't take that out of my being that if you know that that's available, that you gravitate toward it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I am anti anything."   Eva Williams: (59:03) I've had my time being anti epidural, and then I saw a series of Pilates teachers and yoga teachers who had super tight pelvic floors get an epidural after like 36 hours of labour, and just one hour, boom, baby was out. Really incredible experiences. Legs were still working, everything. So I can't go through the level of experience that I've had, I can't afford to fight anyone. I hate it in the birth world, I hate this, the fight that happens when people are... I believe in advocating that there's a point where if you can change that inside of yourself, you stop attracting moments to have those conversations. That's what I have found in my personal experience.   Eva Williams: (59:45) And so I try to just be very, very open, and the reason is because I don't necessarily need to specify what I will and won't work with, because I really only attract people that I really will be the right person for. But I would say, if someone is just like, "I don't know what to get and when." I would just say, "Look, the most standard thing is that you have a 12-week ultrasound, you have your 21 week morphology. That puts a lot of power in your hands. Look it up, do a little bit of research." And then usually, there'll be something as a bare minimum right before your birth, like a 36-week thing, and then we'll do a GBS swab."   Eva Williams: (01:00:21) And you don't have to do your GBS swab, you don't have to get that scan. You can just wait and go into labour naturally as well. But those are some of the options. And I don't believe that you need anything more than that, but I've been with women who are going every third day in the end of their pregnancy just to sit in a room for 20 minutes just to hear if the baby's safe and good. If that's wh

When we hear the word “church” – well, so often we load it with a whole lot of baggage – our ideas, perceptions, experiences. “Church” – it's almost become a four–letter word. But my hunch is – it wasn't meant to be so.   Church – A Four Letter Word I've often thought – if I were a marketing consultant, and I won a tender to run a marketing campaign to give the term “church” a positive position in the contemporary mindset – the secular psyche if I can use those words – I wonder whether I would actually want the job. I mean – this word “church” has almost become a four letter word in society today. Scandal after scandal. So many people see large parts of the church as being anachronistic – outdated, irrelevant. The vestiges of old style religion appear to be alive and well. For me – the greatest indictment of church in my living memory has been the whole issue of child sexual abuse. It seems to spread across so many of the denominations – and so I just don't want to single any of them out. Only it's not so much an issue – but a string, countless thousands of cases of the most appalling abuse of position and trust that is imaginable. People who claim to be God's emissaries sexually abusing children – and not just children, but adults too. And then, if that isn't terrible enough – the cover–ups by major denominations. I was reading a government report into this issue in one major denomination, in one particular country and the report concluded that the senior levels of this church denomination had – and I quote – “obsessively and systematically covered up” the widespread sexual abuse of children by its clergy for decades. And this has happened over and over and over again. You Google church sexual abuse on the Internet, and aside from the fact that you get over 4 million hits – 4 million – you discover church essays, positions, enquiries, policy papers, white papers on this whole subject. Now – you may well ask – why is it that Berni's rabbiting on about this? Why's he being so critical about this? Well, simply to demonstrate why the “church” has an image problem. The easiest thing in the world is for those of us who live inside this thing called “church” to completely lose sight of how people on the outside, see and think about this thing we call … church. Has the whole church gone bad? Of course not. But there's enough mud flying around for it to stick. And then – there are so many other issues. The church seems to be anti–so many things. Anti–abortion. Anti–homosexual. Anti this and anti that. And please right now I'm not making any comment or judgement about the validity of those positions one way or the other. As it turns out I have very strong views on some of these issues. But it's not the views and the beliefs that I'm talking about right now. It's the perceptions of society as a whole, that this thing called the “church” can hold itself out to proclaim judgements on such issues when – I mean, look at the whole issue of child abuse. Is it any wonder that people look at the church and think – what a bunch of hypocrites. Then there's the church not far from me – the denomination – that lost $160 million on some bad stock market investments recently. And the other small local church sitting on well over $20 million worth of real estate, with less than a dozen members showing up every Sunday morning. These days there are so many Bible believing Christians having been burnt by this thing called church, that they're leaving it in droves whilst still hanging on to their faith in Jesus – that the academics are writing text books about this group. Perhaps some of that is treading on some sensitive even painful ground for someone listening today. And the last thing that I'm about is dragging down the church. But if you belong to God's church – whatever denomination, whatever shape of form that takes – do you see the image problem that the Church has? Church – these days – is very definitely a four letter word out there in contemporary society! Hmm. The sad thing is that so many good things are happening amongst this group of people we call “church” around the world as well. It's not all bad – far from it – but we live in a world today – where people both inside and outside the church are struggling so deeply with what church means, what it is, what it's supposed to be, what it achieves – so many people are struggling so deeply and in many cases painfully with this issues – that I believe we have to talk about it on the program. So that's what we're going to be doing over the next couple of weeks. And as you may have noticed – I'm not going to pussy–foot around. Let's call a spade a spade, let's see things for what they are – and there's a good reason for that. Because like it or not, whatever you think of this thing called “church” it is part of God's plan and it is something that lies at the core of God's plan for this world – for humanity. Have a listen to what Jesus said to Peter the Apostle: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18) Jesus said He would build his church and make her strong. God also refers to the church as His bride: Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. (Ephesians 5:25–27) And His body: For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:12) And as individualistic as we've become in contemporary society here in the 21st century after the time when Jesus walked this earth – as much as we're focussed on ourselves, God's plan, God's plan is for His children to be a family. It's a powerful plan. And it's a good plan. To be sure – sometimes being a church hurts. Sometimes it disappoints. Sometimes it falls such a long way short of what we expect these people of God to be and how we expect them to love us – but it is God's plan nevertheless. Saw a sign outside a local church recently that said “Don't let Christians put you off Jesus”. As bad a piece of marketing as I think that is – leading with the chin like that – this sign somewhat clumsily and insensitively puts its finger on the problem we've been talking about today. That “church” is a four letter word. So the thing we're going to look at today and over these coming weeks is this – despite so much doom and gloom and obvious failures of this thing called “church” – how do we make sense of God's plan? How do you and I – if we hunger after God – grow and thrive in the body of Christ – the church – despite all the things in this world that scream at us that we should run a mile? How?   People are a Pain You know the biggest problem I find with Churches? The one that is absolutely, without any shadow of doubt number 1 on my list of problems with church – is other people. As sure as God made little green apples, you get a bunch of people together, and some of them are going to be a pain. They're going to rub us up the wrong way. They're going to disappoint us, hurt us. You and I – as Mary Poppins would say – may well be practically perfect in every way. It's all those other people – they're the ones who are pains. If it weren't for them – church would be a fantastic place to be. But they're the ones that ruin it. They're the ones who rob it of what God meant it to be. To tell you the truth – I'm just not prepared to put up with them anymore. That's it. I've had enough. I'm taking my bat and ball and going home. And that my friend – that is exactly the attitude that so many people have towards church in this consumer oriented world. My expectation of church used to be that it would be something like a zoo. You know when you go to the zoo, you go to the different animal enclosures and you see a series of perfect, well fed, well looked after specimens. The lion enclosure – prefect specimens. The elephant enclosure. More perfect specimens. The giraffe enclosure – yet more prefect specimens. You see, you experience what you're expecting – what you paid your money for. Perfect specimens. That's what we go to the zoo for – to see what we expect to see. And that's how I first approached this thing called church. I expected to see and meet a whole bunch of perfect specimens. People who would give me what I came for. The perfect preacher. The perfect pastor. The perfect community. The perfect worship service. The perfect … well, everything really. Boy was I disappointed. n And as time when by, here's what I discovered. Church isn't so much like a zoo full of perfect specimens, it's more like … like a rehabilitation ward full of broken people, being restored back to health. Now some of them are pretty healthy to be sure, some of them are getting much closer to being perfect specimens than others, but pretty much each person in that church is going to be a broken person – somewhere along that journey of rehabilitation. Can I be really honest with you – I've met some really, really bad people in churches. That shocked me. Of course, I've met some utterly fantastic people too. And no matter what churches I've visited, or been associated with or been a part of – it's always the same – it's invariably a mixed bag. And this reality doesn't fit with our expectation – deep down, we expect them all to be perfect – and so our natural reaction is to think – boy, something seriously wrong in this place. But is there? Interesting that Jesus' disciples had a similar perception of these people who turn out to be a pain. So Jesus told them a parable – to explain what was going on. And just as it explained the reality way back then – it still explains so graphically and perfectly the reality today. So – have a listen to what He said to them … and what He's saying to us, 2,000 years on: He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?' He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.' The slaves said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he replied, ‘No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them. Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'” So, here Jesus is dealing with this idea that we have that a church should be perfect and if it ain't perfect then it's not the church for me. What's Jesus saying – quite simply this – that in God's Kingdom – and remember, the tangible reality of that Kingdom on this earth is God's Church – in God's Church – there is always going to be a mixed bag. God plants good seed in His church He calls good people into His family. But the enemy comes along and plants some weeds too. Remember amongst the 12 disciples whom Jesus chose, the enemy the devil got a hold of one of those – Judas Iscariot – with devastating effect. The enemy's going to get hold of some people's hearts right in the midst of the body of Christ – and instead of delivering a good harvest they're only going to produce more weeds. Jesus is saying “that's normal”. And when the servants say to the master – so – do you want us to go do some weeding – He says, no, no, leave them. I'll get to them at harvest time. The sovereign choice of God is to leave the weeds in place – did you pick that? He chooses not to make His kingdom a zoo – full of perfect specimens, but a mixed bag. That's the reality. That's His choice. And my hunch is that He puts those people there – not so that we can be victims, but so that we can learn to love and to overcome and to suffer and to give and to serve – even our enemies. Even those who play politics and those who are selfish or nasty or painful – or however they rub us the wrong way. My friend – church is never going to be perfect. There are always going to be some weeds scattered through the crop – but what Jesus is saying is this – leave them to me. I'll deal with them in due course. I'll sort the weeds from the wheat on that day of harvest, the day of judgement. Meantime, get on with it. Let the good wheat grow and yield its grain. As I said – thoroughly realistic. And when we take this parable of Jesus' into our hearts – it puts those difficult people in church – well, it shines a whole new light on things. All of a sudden, the Lord is giving us a license – just to get on with it.   Programs, Programs, Programs For almost two decades of my life, I worked as a consultant in the information technology industry. I worked around the world and so I've been into hundreds of different organisations – private sector, public sector – in many different places and cultures. And over the years, I've seen how systems and key performance indicators and the drive towards more and more profits impact people's lives. What I saw all too often were workers lined up in small cubicles, driving to targets, to increase company profits. Nothing wrong with companies making profits of course. There's nothing wrong with them having performance targets and incentive schemes and all of that. But after years and years and years of seeing this – I've come to the conclusion that there's a line somewhere that companies and organisations can step over. There's a tipping point – to use that familiar term – where the systems and the performance indicators and the profit motive take people from being free range to battery – does that make sense? Some workplaces I've walked into , the people have been working incredibly hard – and yet they're energised and happy and there's some laughter in the place. But mostly that hasn't been the case. Insurance companies, banks, call centres – so many of these places, when all that drives management is the profit motive – then ultimately that line is crossed and the people become like battery hens. We weren't made principally to be cogs in a production machine. You and I – we're unique and creative and we love encouragement and we love being part of something we believe in and that we value and when we're valued. But systems, cubicles, targets – they can squeeze the life out of us. Sometimes when I travel into the city on the bus or the train – something I used to do a lot of in my consulting days – I look at the faces of the people – and you don't see much joy, or sense of anticipation. There's a greyness, a lifelessness that happens when beautiful, amazing, creative, emotional, intelligent, funny, wonderful people are squeezed into a production mould. It's the issue of balance that's missing. That's the conclusion I've come to. And here's the thing – this is something that I've seen in churches too. Over the course of this week and the next few weeks on the program – we're taking a really frank look at this thing we call “church”. And one of the things that appears to have emerged in the contemporary church is the program. What do I mean by that – well, we grow and so we organise ourselves and our activities and the members of the church. And the way we organise things is that we institute programs. We have the weekly home group program. The lady's meeting on Wednesday morning. The young mother's meeting. We implement a number of evangelism programs. We set budgets, we look at outcomes we assess the return on the investment. We run events – the Easter event, Carols by Candlelight at Christmas. We have food appeals, we go door knocking around the neighbourhood. Now – let me say something at this point – there is nothing intrinsically wrong or bad or sinful about any of these things. They're all good in and of themselves. OK – so I'm not knocking any of them per se. But just as in everything else – there's a line we can cross over – the line where we turn church into purely an accumulation of events, activities, meetings, committees and programs. That point – and I've been to churches where I've seen this happen – where the only way that you can be a part of the church – is to participate in the programs. I've heard this come from the pulpit – if you want to develop friendships and relationships – you have to sign up to join a homegroup. Now – program–driven may have worked at some place and at some time – but remember so many of the people who come to our churches – are these same people who spend their lives working as virtual battery hens. And if there's one thing – just one thing – that so many people are looking for in a faith community – it's just that – a genuine sense of community. And community – community isn't an accumulation of programs and events – it's not a by–product so much of signing up for this program or that. Because we can have as many programs as we like at church – and have zero community. Community is a mindset. It's a heart attitude. I've been to a church where it took them 9 months – 9 months – to invite us to anything – and then, it was a programmatic “new comer's luncheon.” That's not community. Community is when you walk in and someone greats you and smiles and shares and gets to know you and has you over for coffee or lunch and is there for you. Jesus didn't say – that by this people know will know that you are my disciples if you have effective church programs. He said – by this people will know that you are my disciples if you have love one for another. There's something organic and spontaneous about that sort of love. The two words used for Church in the NT are ecclesia and koinonia. The first means – a meeting, that's what churches do as they meet once a week. And the second – koinonia – means a fellowship, a joining together. It's a relational word. It's the word of organic love and organic community. And that – that is the one thing more than any other – that disconnected people, people who work as battery hens by day, are looking for. Welcome. Fellowship. Spontaneity. A sharing of lives. The Apostle Paul put it this way when he was talking about each one of us being part of the body of Christ – If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honoured, all rejoice together with it. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. (1 Corinthians 12:26) If there's one thing people are hungering for more than anything else – it's this genuine experience of Christ's love through community.

Welcome!   Today there is a ton of stuff going on in the world of Technology, and we are going to hit several topics today. From Technological Protection to tactics. Zero-Day Browser Vulnerabilities, Malware Infected Phones, Vulnerable Broadcom Chipsets in Cable Modems. Why connections always mean hacking. Social Engineering. The absolute need for Updates, Patches. The Coming Cyber War is already here, and more on Tech Talk with Craig Peterson on WGANand more on Tech Talk With Craig Peterson today on WGAN and even more.  It is a busy show -- so stay tuned. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Related Articles: Technology Can Only Protect You So Much --- Then Other Tactics are Needed Zero-Day Browser Vulnerabilities A Free but Malware Infected Phone -- Courtesy of the US Taxpayer A Lesson to Learn - If it is Connected It can Be Hacked Routers and Firewalls with Broadcom Chipsets Are Vulnerable Social Engineering Comes to the Forefront of Attacks Updates, Patches, and Hackers Oh My! Cyber War isn’t Coming It is already here! --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Hello, everybody, Craig Peterson here a big week when it comes to security updates, and I mean a massive weekend. Welcome to show number 1043. That's weeks people. I've been doing this for a very long time, glad you have joined us, and if you are watching over on YouTube, I'd love to hear from you. Just email me at Craig Peterson calm you know if you're on YouTube or, or Facebook, I've noticed a few people who have subscribed, and I love that thank you very, very much. I hope you get a lot out of the show. If you're listening on the radio, of course, you can also email me at Craig Peterson calm with any questions that you might have. And I always try and answer them now sometimes it takes me a little longer than others. As you can imagine, I am a busy guy. It is kind of a labor of love, but we do want to answer your questions and help You out with everything. Keep an eye on your mailbox this week. Because I am finishing the course of courses. I am so excited about this, so proud of what we're doing. And what I'm trying to do here is help you get to the point where you have all the information you need. If you're the Operations Manager now responsible for it in a company, or you're a smaller company, you know, doctors office, etc. It is going to be great. So keep an eye on your email. Because what I want from you here as I'm finishing this course up is your questions. I want to make sure they all get answered. As I've been going through putting the course together, I've even noticed that there are things that would help take that kind of extra mile if you will, you know there are these concepts that people just don't understand. And I'm going through this thinking oh my gosh, you know, to me, it's so obvious, but to so many people, it's just not because this isn't what they do every day, and they've done every day for years and years. So we're adding a bunch of different things to this course, different bonuses that are going to help. Of course, as we always do, I will still do free training, that's always part of one of these courses when we lead up to it. And there's a lot of people out there that say, Hey, listen, I can get everything I need just from the free training. And you know, between you and me, that's not true. But you can learn a lot from those. So I hope you will attend. And if you're not on my email list right now, even if you're a home user and not a business person, you're not an office manager. Let's say you're a small business owner, and you're wondering if this is something that you should do or not. I think the answer is yes. Because really, I've never been so excited about something ever. It is something I think you're going to love. I know I have put mine all into this and solos my wife. I've had a couple of other people here in our team helping out as well had a great meeting this week. And it's just man, this is exciting. So anyway, if you're not on my email list, sign up right now so that you can get on you can get not just this, but every week I send out videos, I send out a newsletter. I do Facebook Live training and YouTube Live, and we have pop-up training when there's something that's hit the news that you know you're trying to stay ahead of we do all of this stuff, and that's all for free, but you got to be on that particular email list. So subscribe by going to Craig Peterson comm slash subscribe, make sure you're there. I think you're like it. You know, you can always unsubscribe, which some people do, right? It's not for everybody, but most people have been on there for years now. I have people on there. That man, I'm trying And remember, but it's been probably 25 years on that list. So join now Craig Peterson, calm slash subscribe. Now I started by saying that we have some real security problems this week. So I want I'm going to mention this a couple of times during the show, I want to make sure you guys know first of all, huge, huge, huge windows problem out there. And this problem was reported by the National Security Agency. Now, I made mention of this on the radio this week when I was a guest on the morning drive show, but I think it's worth mentioning again, and that is The National Security Agency when they have found these types of bugs. What do they do? They keep them for themselves. They don't want other people to know about the virus, because then they use that bug now to go and grab onto other people's computers, you know, foreign agencies, bad Guys, good guys, people that they're not sure of right all of this stuff. They've been using it for years. We saw this from Edward Snowden and his leaks, right? He went out, saying everything they are monitoring, and that they are capturing and, and they're putting up on to their computers and their data storage over there in Utah and just terrible things. So we know they're doing this stuff. Well, this was amazing to me, because I realized that here under the Trump administration, this is the first administration where the National Security Agency has recognized a more significant responsibility. It isn't just hacking into other people. It's providing security to us, to you to me, right, and helping us to understand what we need to do which yea yea yea right. I've always been trying to help everybody. Get more secure. So I'm glad the NSA is doing that. Now. They didn't do it under the Obama administration or the Bush administration or the Clinton administration, right? They just haven't done this, and I don't think ever. So kudos to them if they're listening. And of course, we know they are. And kudos to the government agency. So this is a big, big deal here with Windows. And we need to understand kind of what it is it's going on. But basically, it has to do with encryption. It has to do with that part of the windows that we use to try and keep ourselves safe. Now, it's not all encryption. I don't want to get too technical. Everybody, you know, my show here is really to help you guys understand things and not get all cliquey and clinical and buzzwordy, although sometimes I am accused of doing that frequently, I try not to. So it has to do with encryption. And it turns out that in the cases of this time, encryption. Microsoft isn't even validating keys, which, as you can gas, if you don't know anything about encryption, is a huge deal. So update windows pronto. Now, there are no known attacks in the wild, but you can be sure those are coming. Also, a big update this week from Firefox because of a massive security hole. You probably know, I love the Firefox browser. I use that Firefox browser. And I hope you do too. It is important if you use Facebook, because of Firefox browser has a special thing where it's fencing Facebook in so that it can't read all these other sites visited. It's great for that, but there is a security bug. So that's news, I guess. We want to make sure we fix that main, and you can do that by updating Firefox. Now Firefox is one of those browsers that updates itself. So hopefully you've recognized it Firefox came up and said, Hey, I want to restart to install patches, and then let it restart, you have to let it restart. And Chrome started doing that as well. Again, never, ever use Microsoft Internet Explorer, it is the definition of a problem for you. Okay, security and otherwise, so don't use Internet Explorer. And also, of course, the Edge browser. I wouldn't use either. And I'm not fond of Google browser, Google Chrome unless you have to use it, right, because some applications only work well in Chrome. So let's get to our first article of the day here. We're talking about half protected is half empty, and you can see behind me, technology can only protect you and me so much. Many of these threat actors, these cyber guys that are out there, they are coming after you and me. And one of the easiest ways to come after us is using phishing smishing some of these other tactics, and we're going to come up here in another segment Today, I'll be talking about smishing. And how bad that has gotten and how you can avoid it six tips. I'll give you here to avoid smishing. But in reality, right now, we're talking about the human element. And what the wetware You and I, right versus hardware and software you and I are doing, and we're getting confused, and they are taking us to task on this. But we've got to be careful here with our security controls. We got to make sure that people only have as much access to data as they need to know so so many businesses will see this all the time. And I understand if you're doing this because it gets kind of complicated to do it the right way. But so many businesses are sharing their file server with everybody. They've got an Active Directory server or some sort of a network-attached storage device, etc. And all of their files are on it, and everybody has access, you don't want to do that. Because all it takes is one person to get fooled into clicking on a link, downloading some of the malware software. And once that malware loads onto their computer, start to spread. Where is it going to spread? Well, heck, it says Look at this, a network-attached file system a file share. I'll just try start to spread that way, and it does. So keep your security controls in place. Make sure you have the minimum necessary access. Make sure when it comes to your password management, be sure that you are using password vault at a very minimum. You can go all the way up to things like Thychotic, which is just phenomenal; it changes passwords and everything as used. But be very, very careful because this can go a long way towards helping your business to stay safe. Train your personnel and make sure they know what they should be doing. You Google has some free tools you can use. I have some tools. In my weekly newsletter, a lot of businesses use that as their training. They have people go through that read it and then answer some questions. So that's all free at Craig Peterson, calm slash subscribe. So stick around. We're going to come back, and we're going to talk more about this whole Firefox warning. And we'll talk a little bit about browsers. You're listening to Craig Peterson. I'm of course on the air on WGN radio and other stations online at correct Peterson dot com Hey, hello, everybody, Craig Petersson here. Welcome back. We're going to talk a little bit right now about browsers. You know, this is the biggest problem I think many of us have when it comes to being online. which browser should I choose? And where am I going to see the problems? Well, as I just talked about in the last segment, and we're going to talk a little bit about now, we have a security vulnerability out there for Firefox. Now, Firefox is a browser made by the group known as Mozilla. And they've been making this browser for quite a few years. Now. I love this browser. I used to use it almost exclusively. Now, I've changed my tune a little bit. And I have a few different browsers that I use, frankly, for different reasons. So let's go through those reasons pretty quickly. One, if I need the most compatibility in a browser. And this usually means I'm using some sort of software as a service online. So I might be trying to do something extraordinary with a Canva, for instance, which is an amazing tool when it comes to graphics. And it doesn't always work so well with other browsers. It refuses to run under the Opera browser. So if I need the highest level of compatibility, it's Google, Google Chrome. And Google Chrome browser is the most supported, and it's number one out there, the most supportive browser, bar none. It didn't use to be, but it sure is now, the second browser level browser that I use for everything except for Facebook. Lately, I've been using Opera O-P-E-R-A. Now opera has browsers for your desktop, whether it's a Mac or Windows machine. Has it for tablets, it has it for your smartphones. P-opera is great. It is Every fast. That's kind of its claim to fame. It's the fastest browser, but it also has the highest level of security. Well, almost right? But of the common browsers that are going to work with most websites opera. So that's number two. Number three is the Firefox browser. Now, remember, I said, I don't run Facebook, inside of opera. And that's because Firefox has an incredible feature. When it comes to running Facebook. It fences it in quite literally see what far what Facebook's trying to do is get all the information they can get about you. Now, that's not necessarily a terrible thing. Because Facebook is frankly, selling advertising and they Want to know? What are you most likely to buy? And you know what this world runs on advertising. We see ads all the time on TV. We hear ads all the time on the radio like right now, if you're listening to me on the radio, you're going to hear ads, right? That's how the lights get kept on at all of these businesses. Now, would you rather see an ad for cars, new cars, when you're looking to buy a new car? Or do you want to see ads for cars all the time? Personally, if I'm looking for a new car, that's what I want to see. ads for a new car. If I'm looking for shoes, that's what I want to see ads for shoes, right? you get the point here. So if Facebook's able to kind of track what you're interested in what your friends are talking about, then it can give you the ads, and it thinks you're going to be interested in I love that concept. And as somebody who owns a business, I particularly love that concept. So I'm not wasting time or money, not wasting the time of people who aren't my customers and would never become a customer by showing them an ad, right? It's like the Super Bowl ads coming up in a couple of weeks here. But those Super Bowl ads that are almost useless and cost millions of dollars, you know, those are almost useless. So from an advertising standpoint, I love the fact that Facebook keeps that information. As a consumer, I love the fact that pays Facebook keeps that information. However, What I don't like is Facebook's habit of doing what's called cross-site tracking. What that means is Facebook knows Hey, I went to this site I went to that site, and it can help them with selling stuff it knows Hey Greg just went to the Ford website Ford trucks he was looking at, etc. etc. And so now it says Hey, Mr. Chevy dealer Are you interested in maybe buying some advertising is handed off to good old Craig there. And that's how they're making money as well. And so the Chevy guys happy because his ad went to somebody who was potentially going to buy the competition, which by the way, I buy an F 150. Any day over so many of the other products on the market, let me say that we can talk about that some other time, or a rather lengthy discussion. But that's what they're doing. So in the faith in the Firefox browser, when you're running Facebook, what it's doing is it is blocking that cross-site tracking. Because when you like something on Facebook, you might not be aware of it, but it can use some of that information for the cross-site tracking stuff. And there's a lot of information that I just don't want Facebook to have any of their business. Remember, it ends up in the hands of who knows who. Everyone to the Obama campaign. Did you want all of your information given to a political party? Then when Trump ran, they sold some of the information through a third party over in the UK to the Trump campaign. Alright, and so I certainly get it What? Why weren't people upset that the record of literally billions of people was handed right over to the Obama campaign, and yet, few only 10s of millions went to the Trump campaign, and everybody freaks out. Well, I guess that's part of the Trump derangement syndrome, right? So that's why I don't like Facebook to do cross-site tracking. none of their business was out. I'm going online, frankly. And that's where I use the Firefox browser. It's got some excellent cross-site tracking features built-in Plus it has some other features about advertising. And one of the ways that the web sites can figure out who you are, even if you turn off tracking, is to look at what plugins you have installed in your browser, right? A little bit about the history, the cache, the memory in your browser and your computer, right? The operating system version, the computer, the version of the browser, all of that stuff gets pulled out together, come up with a unique picture of who you are. So even if they can't say cookies, they can get all of this information, figure out who you are. Blocking Facebook from doing that when you are on Firefox, and in fact, Firefox blocks that kind of information gathering, no matter which website you're going to, it isn't just Facebook, so check it out. But the Department of Homeland Security now has come out issued a notification encouraging People to upgrade the Firefox browser. It is because there are serious critical actions where they use a security problem with the version of the Firefox browser. So they're warning us, they're advising us, they are encouraging us to make sure we update our Firefox browser up to at least version 72. Now the beautiful thing about the Firefox browser is it always tries to keep itself up to date. And so if your browser, whether it's Chrome or Firefox or anything if your browser comes up and says, Hey, I want to do an update, just let it do the update. Okay? Which usually means you have to quit the browser and restart it. So that's a huge deal because it's likely unless you configured it differently. You can tell it hey, I want you to reopen all the tabs I had open before all of the windows I had open and I do that all the time. I have, by the way, a little browser plugin that I use that you might like, it is called the Great suspender. I figured I should mention this to you guys, the great suspender. And what the great despite suspender does is if you go to a web page in a tab, it will automatically be suspended after an hour, 15 minutes whenever you set it for saving your computer memory and saving your computer execution time. Alright, so if you're like me, and you have a ton of tabs open, check that out the great suspender. So, in summary, if you have to have absolute compatibility, Google Chrome, normal browsing, you probably want to use opera and then Firefox for one year using Facebook, and then you know banks and things. Facebook or excuse me, and Firefox is pretty good. You're listening to Craig Peterson WGAN stick around because I'll be right back Welcome back everybody Greg Peter song here on WGAN and, of course, online as well. If you are watching on YouTube, and you want to see the articles, I post my videos on YouTube. This week we posted a few on Facebook as well. Hopefully, we'll be able to get them all up this week on Facebook as well as YouTube. So how do you find them? simplest way? Go to Craig Peterson comm slash YouTube if your YouTube user or Craig Peterson comm slash Facebook if you are a Facebook user, you know some of us like Facebook some of us don't like Facebook, I use it because of business. There are people on Facebook who are clients and who asked questions I often will put together these pop-up Facebook groups to address specific problems that people are having or the come up in in the news cycle as well. So all of that online at Craig Peterson calm, I'm also we're in the process of changing the website look and feel we got the new one laid out. But we don't have it up and active yet, but we should have it up hopefully within the next few weeks. So keep an eye on that too. I think you're going to like it a lot less confusing homepage than what used to be there. There's just too much stuff on there. So the new homepage has a couple of videos from the weekly summary of the articles. So you can click on them and read them and watch me as well. And then it has this is a new feature that we're adding to our newsletter right now. And that is, we have the top security tactics for the week. So the things you need to So like this week, as I mentioned at the top of the show, we've got a huge Microsoft huge security problem that the NSA told us about Homeland Security warned us about a problem with some of the older releases of Firefox. What software is being attacked right now in the wild? What needs attention now. So that's going to be a new feature of our newsletter as well. So keep an eye out for that. Lots of stuff going on as we get ready for our big training course that's coming up in just a few weeks from now. So keep an eye on your email box, because we're finishing up the course and I'm going to ask you guys what you think maybe I should add, make sure I have in the course. And I'm sure it's going to result in us having to produce a little bit more content than we thought, but the goal is to help you guys understand the security stuff. Now, this article is just mind-blowing to some people. It is from Forbes magazine. You'll find it at Forbes calm. And of course, I have a link to it on my website as well at Craig Peterson calm. But the United States has these programs. You remember all of the bragging people that, wow, I got my Obama phone now that President Obama took over and somehow they figured that it was from him, right. But we have had a program for a very long time for people who don't have much income. And I remember people with dial old rotary phones that got free phones, and the idea was that they could be used to call your doctor to call 911 or something that happened. A quick call to your family and friend. It was even back in the day when the phone call Company charged per minute to make a phone call on a landline. So these programs have been around for many, many years. And more recently, the government has been giving out to people, some of these smartphones. Now they're usually more limited functions and features, and they're trying to keep the costs of these phones down and keep them simple. But in this day and age, I look at it and say, Hey, listen, if we want people to be able to find jobs, they need an online web browser of some sort. So yeah, I love the idea of giving them a smartphone, you know, providing them a charity shouldn't be doing it. The government is doing it right now. But they should be able to go online and do some shopping. Some of the numbers I've seen out of Africa are amazing to me some of these charities I've worked with, who have gone and given phones even just the basic old phones you know, with the ten keypads on It that you can use to what was that called the T something rather. But you could use to spell out words and websites, and it would go there. And they've been giving them those phones, and now they've given them smartphones. But they have had some amazing results, particularly with women in Africa. They were able to build businesses now because they could communicate. Right? capitalism is a terrible, terrible name. Because the capitalists aren't the ones starting the companies. Then it's the entrepreneurs, and it's the people like you and me. Were the ones creating the companies? We're the ones taking the risk of the capitalists are the guys in the banks, who say, yeah, hey, if you don't need the money, we'll loan it to you. Right. Those are the capitalists, the people that are buying and selling stocks, and these big public companies. Yeah, those are capitalists. When we're talking about these African women, who have been some subsistence living for their whole lifetimes. Now being able to have a business where maybe they're making something selling it online, maybe they're selling their herds of animals buying herds, cheese, milk, whatever it might be. Those are entrepreneurs. And giving them the tools that they need, like the ability to be able to communicate is a huge, huge deal. Very, very big. So what are we doing here in the US? For years, the government has provided low-income households with cheap phone service, cheap cell service, and even free smartphones. Sometimes they are completely free, particularly if they are ill or injured, you know, on disability, etc. Well, one provider called assurance wireless, you probably heard of them before, offers a free Android device, along with free data, free trial. 16 and minutes now, this is all in this Forbes magazine article. So it sounds fantastic, right? smartphones can be expensive. Even if you buy the ones I say till I say don't buy, right like the Android phones, they can still be expensive, and they can still be $1,000. For some of these phones, it's not a cheap deal at all. But according to some researchers, the article goes on. There's a catch. The Android phones come with a pre-installed Chinese malware, which effectively opens up a backdoor onto the device and an endangers their private data. One of the malware types is impossible to remove, according to the researchers, and now the researchers here, our company called malware bytes. If you have bought one of my courses before you know Malwarebytes is one of the pieces of software, I recommend that you get it Not perfect right, but it helps much better than antivirus software, right? My gosh, did you realize antivirus software today? Today is effective against zero percent of the newest attacks is zero percent right, so having Malwarebytes is probably an excellent idea. So Malwarebytes said that they tried to warn assurance wireless, which is a Virgin Mobile company. And assurance wireless never got back to them. These devices that we're talking about have a backdoor and one that looks like it's impossible to remove. Those companies are still are those phones that are still out there. Man. So Forbes then after they found out from Malwarebytes about what was going on, Forbes reached out as well to assurance to wireless. Nothing happened. Okay. Then apparently, after the initial publication, this article a spokesperson for Sprint, which owns Virgin Mobile, and assurance wireless said, we are aware of this issue. We are in touch with the device manufacturer, unit max to understand the root cause. However, after our initial testing, we do not believe the applications described in the media are malware. So there you go. Chinese spying on Android smartphones. Well, that's nothing new. Having your phone coming pre-installed with malware. Hey, didn't we just talk about that a few weeks ago, how the latest releases from some of the major manufacturers of Android come pre-installed with over 100 vulnerabilities? So again, don't buy an Android period. Anyhow, let's see if the Craig Peters song. And here on WGAN online and Craig peterson.com. And we're going to talk about the ring controversy when we get back So stick around. Hey, welcome back, everybody Craig Peterson here on WGAN and online at Craig Peterson dot com. Thanks for joining me today. I appreciate it. We enjoy putting the show together, getting the information out helping everybody understand what's going on in the world of technology, you know, and I try and not use some of these industry terms that confuse people. And I've been told many times, that's one of the reasons people love to listen and to watch, and you can do both online at Craig Peterson dot com, and you can find me almost guaranteed in your favorite podcast app. No matter what it is. I'm pretty much there. I've been doing this whole podcasting business now for upwards of 20 years. So I am out there, and I appreciate every listener. Hey, if you enjoy the podcast, If you're listening to this podcast on TuneIn, make sure you spend a minute if you wouldn't mind and go to Craig Peterson dot com slash iTunes. Now iTunes is the 800-pound gorilla still in the marketplace, and they do a lot of statistical tracking. Go to Craig Peterson dot com slash iTunes. And if you would give me a five-star review, let me know what it is you like about the show, the best things. Hopefully, we can get even more people signed up. But I'm also on tune in, and I heart and all over the place. So you can go to Craig Peterson dot com slash, your favorite, whatever that might be tune in, and it'll take you right there, and then you can subscribe to the podcast. Well, we've talked many times about this general problem, and this is called the Internet of Things. What are you supposed to do? What is Well, we'll start there very briefly for those that aren't, you know up to date on this, because it is changing all the time. The Internet of Things now includes some of your clothing, yes, computers embedded in your clothes. Computers are built-in to the newest televisions, obviously, and into the refrigerator and your washer and dryer. At the Consumer Electronics Show, I saw some of the kitchen appliances like your stove, right? You no longer have to turn that knob on the stove. Now you go to an app, and you get your phone out, and it'll turn on or turn off whatever. That's the Internet of Things. The Smart light bulbs that we have the turn on and off the at the front door where you have maybe used to have a key, and now you can hold your phone up near that's the Internet of Things. Now, it brings about a whole lot of significant use cases and, and I love the Internet of Things. I have some of the devices at my home in my office that is all connected to the internet. And there's a good reason for it. And it works well for us. So that's the Internet of Things. Ring, which is a company that was acquired by Amazon a couple of years ago for $1 billion, is a security company. And their claim to fame was this video doorbell that they made, and they still do, and it's even still called Ring, and it's now being sold by Amazon who owns the company, as I mentioned. And the idea is you replace your doorbell on the front door, side door, whatever it might be with this little ring device. And the ring device has built into it a camera, and it's also hooked up to the internet. So if someone rings the doorbell, it will go ahead now, and it'll pop up and alert on your phone. And it'll say, hey, someone's at the door. Now you can not only look at the person at the door, and know that they are, who they are you can talk to them, you can hear what they're saying, you can go ahead and respond to them, have a conversation with them, whatever you might need to do. And then there are other ring devices now, and other devices in your home so you could unlock that front door. And Amazon has a service now that is used primarily in the bigger cities, where they'll walk into your home and leave the package inside by using a unique door lock that they can unlock. I don't know about you, Walmart is doing the same thing. With Walmart, that door lock is exclusive again, but Walmart will only use employees who have been with Walmart for more than a year and have a spot free record. Now that makes sense to me. You don't just want anybody walking in. But I don't want anybody walking into my house. So the idea behind Ring is you can be on that beach, you can be at work, you can be picking up the kids doesn't matter. And you know who has been at your home. So if you got a porch pirate, you can go back and look at the video. You can even turn it over to the police, which is where part of this problem starts. Because Ring has been doing some things that a lot of people say whoa, wait a minute now. Ring has stored all of these video recordings from the front doorbells and storing it in the cloud. Now just because it's in the cloud doesn't mean everyone has access to it, although we have certainly seen that with some cloud databases, which I believe is the problem that Ring had. So what happens then? Because now all of the videos that your ring devices have captured is online. Another problem that these companies had (Ring, Amazon Alexa, and Apple Siri) is that some contractors were looking at these video files listening to the audio. And people thought that was a terrible thing. Oh, you know, frankly, that's not a terrible thing. Because how are you going to make the voice recognition better? If nobody verifies the voice recognition, right? You have to have somebody listened to it. Well, in Rings's case, it turned out that some of their devices were getting hacked. Now we know this happens with the Internet of Things devices. Most of it's like 90 95%. I think all of the security cameras that we have in the United States get manufactured in China. Many of them are eminently hackable. I mean, in a very, very big way. So, if you have a device that's hacked, what does it matter to you? Well, it mattered to some of these people who claim someone hacked that their Ring device because they had a camera in their kid's room. And the bad guy took over the camera and started having a conversation with their kids. Now, if that's not a problem, I don't know what it is. Remember the LA Unified School District with their laptops. And the cameras on the laptops are being turned on remotely by their IT people at the school district. And young ladies had their laptops open in their bedrooms while they were getting changed. Think about the consequences here. They can be pretty steep, and there's no question about it. One of these days, we'll make a comparison of some of the smart devices that are out there. As far as things like smart-speakers go, Amazon has been excellent. They design their echo devices to have a hardware limit on them. So they can't just sit there and listen, unlike Google Home. There are some malicious apps on Google Home that could sit there and listen for hours on end and stream everything said. They heard streaming it all up to the internet. Okay, so Alexa is kind of the way to go there. There are these people whose kids' rooms now had hacked cameras and microphones and speakers going after the company. And in November senator Ed Markey, Democrat from Mass said that he wants to make some changes to something else that Ring has been doing. The other thing the Ring did was cooperating with police departments. What they've been doing with the police departments is sharing the video, live video as well as recorded video, from the doorbells, hopefully just the doorbells. The police are doing an investigation in the neighborhood. The idea is, hey, we can grab. They're up all this stuff from all of these different cameras. We can see this car that went through the neighborhood and spied on people. Right? Maybe, someone marking to come back to later and steal things. Now, that sounds perfectly reasonable to me. The problem was that people didn't know it was going on and didn't sign up for it. They were not aware they could opt-out of it, which is a huge, huge problem. When you get right down to it, we don't have the kinds of standards I think that we should have. There are some significant technical flaws in some of these devices. There have been Hackers accused of breaking into ring products, using the cameras and speakers to yell obscenities at customers in their home and harass children. It is an enormous thing, leaving data online uttering racial slurs issue violent and all kinds of extortion threats to residents. So it's a very, very big deal. Now Amazon responded to these charges, and this was Brian Huisman, an Amazon vice president said they take customer privacy and protection of customer data very seriously. Amazon acknowledged that on for occasions in the last four years, they fired employees for improperly accessing customer videos, and that's what I was talking about before. Ring used to have it set up so that anyone could access anything. It's kind of like God Mode over on Uber, where any of the employees could track any movement of anyone using Uber editor. Employees were using God Mode to track celebrities. It was just incredible login credentials, and a breach of more than 3600 Ring account holders last month. That's personal information. We've got to get more careful. If you are a company that has custom software that you've designed or that is designed for you, I urge you have it code reviewed. Make sure you are using the highest standards available so that you're not going to end up in a lawsuit. Ring is going to end up in a lawsuit over this. It's not just going to be Ed Markey going after him. Hey, you're listening to Craig Peterson on WGAN online and Craig Peterson dot com. Stick around. We got some more news, this time about cable modems. Hey, good afternoon. Welcome back. I should say I like Good morning anyways, it's a better greeting, isn't it then Good afternoon or good evening or Good night. So good morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here on WGAN and of course online and Craig Peterson dot com. We are also putting all of the show up on YouTube and Facebook. And you'll find all of that if you dig a little bit over on Craig Peterson calm, so hopefully, you'll be able to check it out over there. Now we have Greally seen a lot of security problems this week. You might even call it kind of a week of security problems. So just started with just a quick reminder to get everything patched up significant issues with Microsoft this week, and Firefox as well. Now the Microsoft problem was so severe that they released a patch for Windows the same day they announced the bug. They kept everything under wraps, which is how they try and do it. Typically someone will report it. Usually, they'll give 30 to 90 days to the vendor to get it fixed before they all kind of open source it before they tell the world about it. They want the vendor to fix the problem if it's a white hat guy, right? Of course, this time, had the NSA involved. And they did wait until Microsoft had a patch. But sometimes these vendors they'll sit on it for six months or more. And so they the guys that discovered it, say Okay, forget about it, we're just going to go ahead, we're going to release it out into the wild. We know everybody knows, you can usually expect attacks within a month after that happens. So make sure you patch up and patch up soon. You should have automatic updates turned on. We're going to be discussing this during the training that's coming up here in this course. It is going to be phenomenal. Let me tell you, but some of the free training, we're going to talk a little bit about that. We can't do this on the radio because I want to show you screenshots and where to go and what to do and how to do it. But make sure you have that all turned on. Okay. So now let's talk about our next article of the week. And this also has to do with the security problem. Now, if you are a listener to any of the radio shows that I'm on if you listen to have Jeepers, all over New England, any of these stations, you know, this week I was mentioned, I was talking about this problem with cable modems. And there are some huge, huge issues with them. And, you know, we got to be careful when it comes to our networks because that's how the bad guys get in and once they're in whether they came in on your system. Or they came in on that little thumb drive these stuck in the computer. Or maybe they came in some other way no matter how they came in. What we found is they use the network to spread. So what kind of network stuff can you get? What should you do? And most of us want to rely on it. We rely on our cable company, maybe our telephone company, etc., etc. So I'm pulling up right now. I'm just checking some pricing active here on my computer. What should you get? So first of all, this chipset that's used by several different significant vendors out there, including Campolo, net gear, sage, calm, Technicolor, they have ten different models that the researchers have found are vulnerable, which is not a good thing. And right now we know of over 200 Hundred Million cable modems that are affected. It means if you're a small business and man, we see a lot of these guys that get a cable modem because it's cheaper, right? It's going to save a couple of hundred bucks a month as opposed to getting fiber coming in with real professional gear. Yeah, the professional equipment is going to cost you more, but what's ultimately going to cost you more if you get attacked, right? Because 20% of the businesses filed for bankruptcy in less than a week. You know what's going to save you money. There's also the problem of you not knowing what to do or how to do it, and that is the reason I have created courses that help explain it to you? But with 200 million cable modems that are open right now in this is a massive, huge deal. So I've got an article up on my website talking about this that I got from Forbes.com. They don't require any authorization these cable modems to analyze what they call their analyzer. And they have two more. Two more of these vendors used an undeniably awful combination of this software and usernames and passwords a new spectrum for the username and the password to be able to get into these. So a very, very big deal. So what do I recommend? I have a lot of this in my, in my course, right, the DIY course that did last year. It's almost been a year, and I think since I did that course. But what I'm recommending right now, for most people in their homes is something get out a pencil, piece of paper, to text it to yourself, whatever you might need to do. It's called a net gear, or B or B i. Now, you can find these things at the big box retailers. You can buy it from Amazon, and you can get them all over the place. Now you know, I don't like Google stuff because I don't trust Google. Netgear has not been the best when it comes to security stuff. So they came out that's the main reason they came up with this thing. The RV allows you to have your main unit that plugs into the cable modem. And now that from that main unit, you can have used a mesh network is what it's called, you can have other Orbi devices around the house and get excellent coverage. Now in this day and age where everybody's streaming, the kids have streaming televisions in their rooms. Hopefully, you do not use the built-in Smart TV functions, but you have an external little smart box. But our kids have them in the room, so you need more bandwidth. If you see jerkiness when you're watching videos and having troubles on the internet, that's probably why, and you may only be using the old fashioned networks, the 2.4 gigahertz stuff as opposed to the five gigahertz stuff. Orbi of takes care of all of this for you now, it is not cheap. It is also not a professional grade. If you're a business, you should not be using this, and you should be moving up to the better Cisco stuff. Now, thank goodness Cisco got rid of the low-end line. They Cisco had bought, I think it was next year actually and some of their low-end equipment. And they can confuse the industry because people's you know, I got Cisco Well, no, really actually when she got was a home-based router, firewall, whatever it was. Small businesses medium, particularly in large businesses, you should have a Cisco network. Juniper doesn't have anywhere near the security stuff. Palo Alto Networks, nowhere near the security stuff. Cisco is 100%. Okay, so we count me on this. Back to the home users, and the real small business like a small office, Home Office, this Netgear Orbi, a tri-band whole-home mesh Wi-Fi system, is what you want. Three gigabits a second speed. It's very, very good. It's this particular model I'm looking at right now, and Amazon is called an RBK 50. It's a router, and the extender covers up to 5000 square feet. It is two-pack, and it is right now selling for $286 for the pair. You get the main unit, and then you also get another unit that is part of the mesh system that kind of expands the coverage and gives you the coverage you need in this day and age right because we have so much that's going on via the internet. So this works with all internet providers saying replace your existing Wi-Fi router and extender compatible with any internet provider, including cable, satellite fiber, DSL, and more. It has wired Ethernet ports and parental controls and even pauses device internet access. You can view history usage filter websites for free set online time limit schedule, device internet access, and more for five bucks a month, and they have advanced cyber threat protection. Now, it's not a tip. It's not the real commercial Advanced Threat Protection, but this is better than you're getting from the cable company. Okay. Advanced cyber threat protection, what they call net gear armor. And this is something a bit defenders provided but defenders you probably know something I like. Its network-wide anti-virus anti-malware fraud, phishing ransomware security on an unlimited number of devices, and comes to the free 30-day trial. And this is $70 a year for that service. Now you're paying per year like if you're a business and you buy equipment from us, you are paying monthly, and every year we at least right we do major software upgrades we keep the hardware up to date and because we're using the professional's stuff from Cisco. They're taking up literally hundreds of millions of endpoints. They're watching what's going on, and we're providing updates hourly for the commercial gear. Okay, so this is quite good. It's using, you know, mu MIMO. I'm not a big MIMO fan. Smart Connect for one Wi-Fi name being formed beamforming technologies, which is Primo. What that means is it aims a signal at the device so that it's not the kind of stomping over itself and stomping all over other devices, which is just fantastic. It has to be Bay to wireless security protocol, which is the lowest you want to use. It's quite good. Includes guest Wi-Fi access DLS which is a denial of service firewall VPN, Mr. Now we here's why I say guess Wi-Fi is excellent. You know home always talking about how you've got to be careful when it comes to your Internet of Things devices, like your Amazon Echo or your light bulbs or whatever. What you do when you set them up is you configure them to go on to your guest Wi-Fi network, which can still have a password, and then they cannot easily get on to your main Wi-Fi network and go after your computers. So there goes some actionable stuff. We learned that cable modems just aren't what they used to be, especially the ones we get from the cable company. I've got some courses that go into a lot of detail on this, but if you're kind of a techie person, you can probably figure this out. I brought up that at least right now. I still like this Netgear Orbi. It is a great little device. I'm seeing it at this very minute. Over on Amazon. com on the Amazon business site, by the way, an Amazon business they're selling it for $286. So good deal all the way around. Stick around. You are listening to Craig Peterson on WGAN. We will be right back. Hello everybody. Welcome back. Craig Peterson here. Glad you can join us today we are, of course, on WGAN and online at Craig Peterson dot com. Right now, I want to talk a little bit about a problem that you may not have heard about. You've probably heard of phishing, and you know, I talked about that all the time. That's the P-H-I-S-H-I-N-G. That's where someone sends you an email pretending to be someone that they're not trying to get you to do something. Often, it looks like it's from your bank, or maybe a bank you used to have dealings with, and they try and get you to click on something, and that might cause you to download and install something, and now all of a sudden, you are hacked. A lot of times that use this whole phishing thing to use it as a part of social engineering, right? They are trying to get you to do something, so you reveal your password and account numbers to them. Then they can get in, and they approach you and them, you know, make it look like it's all legitimate and hey, you know, we really want to help you out, and it just doesn't happen. That is the basics of phishing. If you're still if I'm not clear if you're still wondering what that is, just think of that good old standby right, the Nigerian prince scam from all those years ago. I wrote some software to help stop some filters. But that particular type of fishing doesn't go on like it used to. It's changed. And part of the reason it's changed is that our habits have changed. Now, how have our habits changed? Well, one of the ways that they have changed and changed hugely is that they have started using SMS. So you know, we're on our phones all of the time, these devices are formerly known as cell phones, these smartphones, these computers in our pockets. And if you look at the overall internet traffic, more than half of it now comes from these smartphone devices. So, by the way, if you have a business and you are not using a smartphone first strategy, you are probably missing out and maybe missing out massively. So make sure you handle that right handle that, okay, handle that for me. So, smartphones are a huge deal. Well, the bad guys aren't stupid. They're just greedy, and maybe even a little bit lazy. And that's where we get into this whole concept now of switching from email, where they're sending you phishing email trying to get you to do something to today, where they have switched over to SMS, where they are trying to get you to do something based on a text. They send you Now, and it used to be that if you send someone a text, the normal text was open within seconds after it was received nowadays. Now, with so much nastiness going on, we very frequently don't pay attention to the text messages. But they're doing the SMS phishing, and they're doing it more. So I wanted to cover five different attack examples so that you can see what they're doing and what it might mean to you. Alright, so let's go through them right now. So the first one up on the screen is a smishing. Example. Now. smishing is fishing over SMS. SMS is, of course, texting or a simple messaging system. Okay. That's what it is. That's what it was. So the first one is your bank account is locked. So you'll get a text message. It looks relatively legitimate. And it'll say from and the biggest example out there right now is the one that's up on my screen. You can see this by the way, by going to Craig Peterson comm slash YouTube, or Craig Peterson comm slash Facebook, if you're a Facebook user, you can see all of the videos from today's show. But it'll say from US Bank, separate US Bank unusual activity. It'll tell you your account is frozen.They want you to unlock it, and you want to go to a URL. Now they're not getting fancy with most of these URLs. And in this particular smishing case, it's taking them to their site. And then it has a question mark US Bank. So you look at it and say, Oh, well, this is from US Bank. I'm going to the US Bank website. I can click on that. so fast that this is not us banks URL at all. When you're looking at a URL, which of course, is what the browser uses to get you somewhere, the question mark just means pass this through to the program that's running on the original website. So there you can use it as a tracker saying, oh, wow, our US Bank submission attacks are working well, right now much better than the XYZ bank. So we're going to send out more than with the US Bank. Okay. So that's that after that question mark, in this case, is used for tracking but not always, right? There's a there are excellent legitimate uses. Not that tracking is not an illegitimate use. But in the case of bad guys, it's illegitimate. So that's number one. Number two is an urgent message about your credit card. And in this case, it's claiming to be from American Express. So if you look at this on the screen, you'll see it's from Amex. the message, which there is no such thing, right. And as you got a card alert and noticed the URL on this. It's WW, Http colon slash slash, www dot American Express dash message.com. So let's break down that URL for a little bit here. First of all, it's HTTP and not HTTPs. It doesn't matter a whole lot to you, if it's a scammer, because what they're trying to do most likely is avoid some of the tracking ability that's inherent in an HTTPS request. To be able to have an SSL certificate or a secure server certificate. They're going to have to at the very least go to a website and get a free certificate, and it's going to do a double verify, making sure they are who they say they are. That's going to record the Right. It's just a big hassle. So they're not going to bother doing that HTTPS thing. So that's why it's HTTP more than likely. And then it says www dot American Express dash message.coYou see that part? Well, again, that is not an American Express URL, not that you know, right. And not that you can verify when you go there. When you go there now, they kind of have Yeah, now in SMS, once you see, and you click on is where you're going. It's not like in an email where you can kind of hide what the real URL is people are going to, and it's going to show you the whole real URL. And when you get there, it's not going to know anything about you. But it's going to look like the American Express website. And it's going to have the login and password, and you're getting a card alert. So you're going to go there you can enter your username you can enter in your password. And tada, you're out of luck. Because now they have a username, password. And then they might redirect you to the real American Express website, and you have to log in again. You say, Well, that's weird. And you go on with life. No big deal. Well, in reality, what just happened is you gave it to them. And they're all set. So they're going to send you on over to the American Express website. And then you're done. Okay, next one up on the screen is you won a prize and click here to get it machine attack. You can see this one appears to come from our friends at Walmart. It says the example here on the screen is congrats, Kelly, we printed your code on your last receipt. You are among seven we randomly picked for $1,000 Walmart gift card promotion, and then it's got a link to a redirect Type site k three x VC dot-info, slash blah, blah, blah, blah. So if you click on that, you're going to their site. And again, they're going to squeeze you in this case for some Walmart information, maybe a bank account saying, Hey, we're going to wire the money to you what's your bank account number. And number four is, we're going to have to go through these last two real quick here and pretending to be from Amazon. You can see these up on the screen right now. And this last one is an unusual account activity from Apple support. So make sure you check these all out Craig Peterson dot com slash YouTube, or Craig Peterson dot com slash Facebook. I'll try and put this up on my homepage as well. You can see examples of these newest mission attacks. Stick around. We're going to talk about why some of these businesses are not patching and are leaving us vulnerable. You're listening to Craig Peterson on WGAN. Wow, can't believe it man is our last half hour together right now. You're listening to Craig Peterson here on WGAN. Thanks for joining me and online Craig Peterson dot com. Make sure you subscribe to my email list. You'll get all of the updates, and my most important videos of the week. You'll also find out about when the nasties are happening like they're happening this week as well. Sign up Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe. I'd love to see you there. We're going to talk about the biggest problem we as consumers have, we as business people have. These lines cross because businesses are holding our data. With this new California law that's been in place for consumer privacy and keeping everything information safe, letting us know what businesses have about us and requesting its removal. There's a movement afoot to help get a handle on our personal information. You probably know that the Europeans passed a similar law, that when in fact that got teeth last year, went in a couple of years ago, just like the California law did last year. And these laws are rolling out all across the country. Massachusetts has it, and the federal government is looking at a law similar to California has to pass on a national basis. So what this ultimately means is, we could be in better shape as consumers and we could be in a lot worse shape as businesses, as we've been getting calls from businesses lately about how do I go ahead and protect myself as a business here? What do I have to comply with when it comes to this whole California Yeah, consumer privacy thing, right? Very, very, very big deal. So how do we do this? Well, as a business, the simplest thing we need to do is start at the very beginning, because the California law lots and lots, a customer client or prospect come to you and say, Show me the data you have. But there are crazy teeth in place in pretty much every state now that if you lose their data, you are in even deeper trouble. Look at what happened with Equifax. Look at what happened with TJ x right the TJ Maxx type companies who lost tons of our data Home Depot. Some of these companies had good security tools in place, but their people did not know how to use them. They couldn't read the reports. They had multiple vendors tools in place, and they didn't have just a single pane of glass. Lastly, they didn't have the type of automated systems that really can get rid of the false alerts. Man do we are there a lot of false alerts, every day hundreds of thousands, my company it for our clients we get 10s of thousands no think of it of these alerts every day. Oh my gosh, it's crazy. So you as an individual, whether you are just all just right, but if you are a consumer, or if you are a business, you have to patch now it's painful I get it. It is in nowhere near as painful as it used to be, you know, you used to install the windows patch and, and it was like putting your marble on red and Vegas, right? The odds are what 5050 not even quite that you're going to win it, it's crazy because you would install a patch and your machine Wouldn't boot. And so now you had to spend days sometimes trying to figure out, Why won't my machine reboot? What can I do? I think I'll get a new machine and move my data over. Make a good backup and write all of this stuff back and forth. The pros and cons. So how do you do all of that? How do you make that happen? Well, today, it's a lot less of a problem. Most of the time, when Microsoft releases patches, you're okay. It's not like the apple environment with a Mac where it's scarce that you ever have a problem with your Mac, okay, with an upgrade. It's sporadic. So keep that in mind as well. And now, let's go back to this. So if you are a big business like an Equifax and you find out that there is a major security problem with, let's say, some of the middleware that you're using. Now middleware is the stuff that sits between the front, which is typically the way site or your customer service people, and the backend, which is typically your set of databases. So that's your middleware. So let's say that there's a patch for the middleware, which there was. And you look at it and say, Oh, my gosh, this middleware changes. Because usually when they issue a patch, it isn't like, Hey, this is just a patch, install it, and you're fine. It's usually a hey, we've made a bunch of changes to improve things in our middleware, or our software and our web browser or web server software. We've made these changes. And as part of this, by the way, we fixed this other security problem. So when you as a business person now who have complex systems in the background, and you're trying to do an upgrade to make sure that middleware is up to date, or that database software or that front end software is up to date. It may not work properly anymore. It probably won't. Now you have to spend a bunch of engineering time to figure out what do I have to change? What other components do I need to modify? How can I make this whole thing work properly again, and that can cost you a lot of money. So what a lot of businesses have been doing is burying their heads in the sand. Hopefully, that's not you, but burying their heads in the sand. All of a sudden, before you know 200 million US citizens, data is out there. You have all of this inside information about people because your Equifax right now people lost jobs when it came to, to these hacks I just mentioned earlier, and that's probably a good thing. But I also empathize with them because I do outsource CISO, chief information security officer tasks for people. I can tell you most of the people who are in these positions have in their drawer, right there next to them, their resume. If they do get hacked, they'll pull out the resume and start shopping around again because they know it's over with. And yet they could not get the authority from the business to do the upgrades and the updates. So I have done this myself. You sit there, and you say, Oh, my gosh, what's the win here? It is not going to generate more revenue by doing these patches. And I'm just one of what millions of companies worldwide that using this software, open-source or otherwise, probably nothing that I need to worry about. So forget about it. I'm not going to mess with it. Have you fallen victim to that I know I have, and that can end up being a problem and a real problem depending on who you are? So pay businesses is upgrading. Sometimes it's because they don't know, which by the way, is another reason to be on my newsletter list. It's free. But every week now, we're telling you here are the top problems that are out there right now from a security standpoint that are being exercised right now by the bad guys in the wild. And if you don't have these patches done, you are in deep trouble. So that's easy to do just credit Peter song.com slash subscribe, and you'll get those types of things. But we're looking right now this particular article that came from secure World Expo, and they're talking about Paul's secure VPN, which we don't use for any of our clients. We have a much much better VPN software from Cisco. But anyways, patches came out for this a long time ago. months. In fact, and it turns out that most organizations have not done the patches yet. So be very careful here. If you're a member of a board of advisors, a board of directors if you're a business owner, if you have questions, reach out to me at Craig Peterson calm, I'll do what I can, but you have a responsibility. And now, it's fiscal responsibility. Coming June this year, depending on what kind of manufacturer you are, there are criminal liabilities tied into this including, ten years in prison. So hey, guys, pull up your socks and start taking this seriously. So you'll find me online. Greg Peterson dot com, and, of course, I'm right here on WGAN and make sure you subscribe to that newsletter. Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe. We'll be right back. Hello, everybody, Craig Peterson here. Welcome back. Wow, the last segment of the show today. It's just going by fast, and I love it. I'm so excited about everything now. We have so many, so many things that are going to help you in the works right now. It's just been a phenomenal, phenomenal time for all of us here. So thanks for joining us. I want to do a quick review of what we've covered today. So let's go back here. I got my slides up. And we'll go right back here. So we started with some of our training and tactics. And we talked about technology and how it can only protect us so much. And in fact, part of the problem we have is the wetware. It's you, and it's me responding to things. Next up, we talked about some zero-day browser vulnerabilities. And in this case, we specifically were talking about Firefox and significant weaknesses this week in Firefox. And I told you what version of Firefox you should be running and what you need to do for the windows security vulnerabilities was exposed this week by the NSA. So you know, congrats to them. By the way. Here is your free phone, right? The Obama phones while it's not Obama's phone, it goes back for decades now, this program that we have in place to help underprivileged people who don't have much money, who maybe need some way of contacting their doctor, etc. Well, it turns out that some of these phones from one manufacturer, in particular, come with m

I recently had the chance to sit down with Sam Horn, the founder and CEO of the Intrigue Agency. She is the former Executive Director of the world-renowned Maui Writers Conference and Pitch Coach for Springboard Enterprises, which has helped entrepreneurs receive $8.8 billion in funding. She has helped hundreds of clients create quality books and high-stakes presentations for TED-MED, TEDx, SXSW, Wisdom 2.0, Google and Facebook. We had a chance to sit down for about 30 minutes and I was honored to ask Sam several questions about how she helps entrepreneurs like yourself better position their Message. Now, I want to give you a front-row seat to hear those questions and Sam’s brilliance… Let’s get started. Jon Cook: The world is noisier than ever right now so how do we, with a powerful message, how do you guide people with that powerful message to break through the noise and connect with their audience better? Sam Horn: We're going to start with something I call a "Did you know?" opening because most people start their presentations or a book or a blog by explaining, right? We've been taught to tell people what we're going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what we told them, right? That makes us a bore, snore, or chore. So here's a quick example and then I'm going to give you three steps they can use to make their first 60 seconds so compelling that people put their digital devices down and get their eyebrows up, okay? And I don't care whether you're writing, whether you're speaking, whether you're doing a podcast, like Jon is, start with three "Did you know?" questions. Did you know this? This? This? Then, go to the scope of the problem you're solving or the issue you're addressing or the need that you're filling. Now, where do you find the startling statistics? You Google that stuff. Just go online, put in what are surprising statistics about blank and put in your topic, put in your problem or your issue or your industry. Up will come things even you didn't know. And if you don't know them, chances are your decision-makers won't know them. You've just earned smart people's attention's time because they're smarter than they were 20 seconds ago. Second step, use the word "Imagine." The word imagine pulls people out of their preoccupation because they're not distracted now, they're picturing your point, or they're seeing what you're saying. So, think about your decision-makers. What are they concerned about? Worried about? Well, imagine a one-use needle instead of re-use. Imagine painless inoculations instead of painful. Imagine a fraction of the current cost instead of really expensive. You see how in a world of infobesity we distilled into one sentence? Who wouldn't want that? And then, third step, you don't have to imagine it. We've created it. Now come in with your testimonial. Now come in with your example or your product demonstration to prove it isn't a pie in the sky or speculative. It's a done deal. And you do all that in 60 seconds. That's how we earn people's attention in a world of infobesity. -- The Keynote Clarity for Thought Leaders Flash Briefing is presented by Jon Cook, founder of Keynote Content. Jon and his team help thought leaders, namely speakers, coaches, and consultants, craft and share their messages to better serve their audiences. Connect with Jon and his team at Keynote Content by visiting keynotecontent.com. You can subscribe to The Keynote Clarity for Thought Leaders Flash Briefing by visiting bit.ly/KeynoteClarity and enabling it there. Then, all you have to say is, “Alexa, what’s my flash briefing?”

Zach has the pleasure of speaking with storyteller and strategist Deidre Wright about effectively building a leadership profile. Deidre shares what her leadership journey is looking like so far and talks about how staying true to her values helped her become the leader she is today. She also offers her thoughts about what some black and brown folks are doing that could be hindering them in their leadership development journey.Connect with Deidre on LinkedIn, Twitter, or Instagram!Check out her website!Visit Living-Corporate.com!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, you know what we do, okay? We come on the show and we have real talk about real things. These real things are actually fairly benign on their face, right? But we take these fairly real topics, and they're real, or rather we make them real, 'cause we're centering black and brown experiences. So today we're talking about building a leadership profile. Now, in building a leadership profile--you know what? I'm not even gonna do that. I'm just gonna go ahead and get into it with our guest, Deidre Wright.Deidre: Yes, that's right. [laughs] Hi.Zach: All right, come on now. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?Deidre: [laughing] I'm good, Zach. Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here. I've lived a corporate life for most of my career, so it's exciting to talk to you.Zach: No, thank you very much. I'm excited to have you on the show. And see, you know what I did is--those are bars, Deidre. So I said, "Deidre Wright," and you said, "That's right." See, I knew--Deidre: [laughs]Zach: Right? So I'm like--anyway, it's wordplay is all I'm saying. Okay, so for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Deidre: Yeah. So everyone, I'm Deidre Wright. I'm a Bay Area native, and I call myself a storyteller and a strategist because I worked across industries, but mostly what I do is empower clients to effectively tell their stories and create strategies, execute goals, and so I say this because I worked in public health, marketing, and risk management, and with all of those fields I can kind of used that skill set and my--that's my passion. So I graduated from Spelman College with a sociology and anthropology degree with the goal to make the world a better place. Graduated during the recession. It was a little challenging, but I was able to help kind of do that. And so I worked for Kaiser Permanente in public health research, working on a study, learning why girls start childhood puberty earlier. So why puberty is starting earlier and long-term [who?] gets breast cancer, and communicating findings with the public, and then I transitioned to marketing because I found that without a clear call to action people don't really make changes. So I was doing internal marketing for McKesson, helping employees sell their services, and then I landed on insurance, really at first advising [?] companies on their risk management and how to improve that for their companies and later now be, you know, an award-winning director of diversity and inclusion helping companies in insurance promote and advance diversity and inclusion.Zach: You know what? You just had so many just Flex bomb moments in there. First of all, you talked about the fact that you graduated from Spelman. Shout-out to all the Spelmanites, the Spelman Women. Deidre: Woo-woo!Zach: Come on, now. Don't--like, let's not play. [ow sfx] Okay? We gotta shout y'all out. [laughs] And then you had some big names in there. McKesson, Kaiser Permanente. That's incredible. So, you know, you talked about--you're talking a little about just kind of your journey. Again, you named some huge brands in there. I'm looking at your profile, and I'm just gonna look at, like, just the last year and a half, okay? So 2018 you got the NAAIA Emerging Leaders co-chair, your 2018 Dive In Festival San Francisco co-chair, and then you were the 2018 Water Street Club Insurance Rising Star and then the 2019 Insurance Careers Month Emerging Leader. Okay? And that's just, again, the last year and change, but it's relevant because like I said, today we're talking about building your leadership profile. I have a theory, right? And I could be--I could be crazy, 'cause I'm--I'm just looking at the field, Deidre. I don't--you know, I'm not a sociologist or any type of scientist. I'm just kind of looking at the space, right? And I have a theory that black and brown folks in corporate America spend a lot of time trying to make sure that we're just strong individual contributors because, you know, we're conditioned and taught to just do that and for a lot of us, like, the first generation of our families being in corporate America, right? But I believe as time continues forward and the millennial workforce increases and, like, its representation increases within the workplace and we age up in the workplace that there's gonna be a continued demand and opportunity for us to continue to really take on leadership positions. So can you talk a little bit about your journey in becoming a leader and, like, what has that looked like for you?Deidre: Yes, mm-hmm. And I'll have to have a little bit more Flex bomb. So, like I said, I work in the risk management and insurance field, but using my platform and my leader standpoint I've done a lot of fun things, including speaking at events where Barack Obama, Colin Powell, and America [Ferrera?] were on the line-up. Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa--Deidre: Yeah. [laughs, record scratch sfx]Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Let me just pause you so I can do this. [Flex bomb sfx] Okay, continue.Deidre: Thank you. Then having viral LinkedIn, you know, posts, where I have one that has 23,000 views and the other one has 37,000 views, and I say this because no matter what industry or skill set, you can be a leader and use your influence to call attention to the cause that you care about. So what's my leadership journey looking like? I guess no matter what I always focus on setting goals, investing in myself, and taking strategic risks. And, you know, you heard my kind of bio. I've done a lot of different things in different fields, but I always stay true to my values, which was, you know, being strategic and storytelling. And so I say that because what happened was I was, like I said, a contractor for McKesson, and so my contract ended and I had my son the month afterwards. So my vision was take a couple months off, go back to McKesson, do my thing, but they had laid off a bunch of marketing people so I had no job to go back to, and that's when I was like, "Okay, I have a baby. I need to make money. Let me figure this out," and so that's when I kind of got back to my values and my goals, and I was like, "Okay, let me check out insurance and risk management--my mom was in the field, she is doing great--and really think, like, what do I want out of a career and start attacking that." So I started with informational interviews with leaders in the space, because I want to say, like, if you have the secret sauce, I want that recipe, and figuring that out for me. And then taking strategic risks to start and break in myself in the industry of taking jobs, and then once I got the position making the position my own and being a thought leader. The key thing to being a leader I would say that everyone is--figure out your craft and promote it on different channels to help people, whether it's, like, Living Corporate, you know, having this experience and teach people skills, but mostly make strategic moves to always figure out how to promote your expertise and level up by seeing or asking, "What experience in my career is gonna give me the highest ROI for career time?" So if I'm spending three years of my time on this project or 30 minutes speaking on a stage, what is the ROI for this? And that's kind of helped me navigate these different changes in marketing to, you know, insurance, being a broker, from a broker to diversity and inclusion. Having those key processes of assessing goals, being strategic, and, you know, seeing what's worth my time or not.Zach: Let's take a step back though, right? So everything you're saying, 100%. I get it. It makes sense to me. But what would you say to the person who's like, "Look, I don't really know what my focus or passion is. I'm just here. I'm just happy to be here." Like, what advice would you give to that person?Deidre: I would tell them to shift their mindset. Just being happy to be here is--I mean, what are you living a life of, scarcity or abundance? Like, yes, I understand--like I told you, I had a baby and no money. I was thinking like, "Dang," but I had to--I don't know if it was just my maternal instincts or just my hustle, I mean, I was like, "I've got to figure out how to make this work," and so I would just say level up your mindset and think about "Okay, if I'm here, yeah, I'm happy for the situation, but what do I want to do with it? Where do I want to be in three years? How much money do I want to make then? What kind of impact do I want to leave on this platform?" For example, when I was a broker, I always wanted to empower my clients and, like--let me be clear on what I mean by risk management. My clients were Airbnb and Lyft and Starbucks and UPS. Like, big, you know, global clients, and I say that because just like you and me, we want to protect ourselves, [and] we also want to reach goals. And so I would say manage your career like you're managing your risk in yourself and think about, "Okay, if I invest X amount of time in this place, what's the return gonna be for me in reaching my goals?" So I guess I would just say change your mindset to just be more than just happy to be there. Like, think "How am I gonna make this work to be happy and earn my worth?"Zach: I love that. You're absolutely right. You know, it's scary though, and I say this as someone who--I'm trying to put myself in, like, the other person's shoes, 'cause you and I, we vibe on that level because we both are like, "Look, I gotta go get it." I don't have any kids yet, but--[both laugh]--but I get it, right? I am married. It's like, "Okay, look, I gotta--" Like, this can't stop. Like, I gotta keep going, right? At the same time, I ask myself, "Okay, so for the folks who are not necessarily naturally as industrious," right, like, what are some of the, like, just kind of starting steps? And I hear you, right? What I'm hearing is it's about identifying "Okay, what do I want the next 18 months to look like? What do I want the next three years to look like?" And then, like, thinking with the end in mind, then kind of working backwards from there and then asking yourself and kind of asking perhaps a scary question of "Okay, well, then is what I'm doing getting me to that point? Yes or no?"Deidre: Mm-hmm.Zach: Okay. No, that's great. So, you know, it's interesting, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned in becoming a leader? And then if I could kind of take a step, like, a little bit below that, as you've been continuing to grow and navigate these spaces, what are things that you see, you know, our black and brown folks doing out there that can hinder them in their leadership development journey?Deidre: Yes. What I learned as a leader--which, it's funny, you know? It's probably like you, Zach. It's like you just do your job and you do it well, and I say that because I consider myself, like, a mentor or a helper, and it's great that I'm a leader, and I'll say that. You know, I take that role, but I just think ultimately it's figuring out what your purpose is and how you can live to that higher calling, but, you know, the real thing is 1. invest in yourself, whether that is taking the time to do the work--for example, like, when I was a broker, I would spend time, hours, reading insurance policies. Now, I don't know, Zach, if that's what you do for fun, but most people don't do that. But I was taking the time so I knew what the heck I was talking about, and I had that confidence in front of my client when I am the only millennial, only black person, only woman in the room. And so you've gotta take time to invest yourself. You know, I had an executive coach who was helping me, you know, through the program and to really figure out what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do and when I was investing that time. Going to conferences, meeting people, networking. You have to do these things if you want to get far, and for us, you know, black and brown people, two things I would kind of say is 1. be strategic and understand no one is gonna invest time in you as much as you. So if you're waiting for your company to tap you on the shoulder saying, "I know you're gonna be a leader," yeah, that might happen passively, but only you can really give all of your effort into doing that. And then two, part of my job is that I organize events and plan them for the industry to I guess really just bond people and give them tools and resources for D&I through events and stuff. So for example, I'm planning a national diversity and inclusion conference that's coming up, and I say that because I look for speakers. I want speakers. I also judge a national woman in insurance award, [?], and so I assess and judge women leaders and their profiles to see who are worthy of these awards. Now, rarely do I see at our events people volunteering who are people of color or whoever to be speakers at events from a technical standpoint, you know? And rarely do I see people nominate themselves for awards. So the biggest thing is advocate for yourself and put yourself out there, because if you don't do that, then who will? So I think that's the biggest missed opportunity. Working hard's not enough. You've got to really advocate and promote your brand, because people want to help you. People want diverse leaders more than ever. I will tell you right now. Companies are investing in diversity and inclusion, and they want leaders. We just had a diversity survey, my company Business Insurance, studying diversity in our industry. We had over 800 people do it, and one fo the questions were what is the biggest barrier to increasing diversity in our industry, and for the second time around it was "we can't find minorities with the right skill set." And I don't necessarily believe that is my case. I just think it's perception. If people don't perceive there are leaders there, then they're not gonna tap you in for opportunities. So speak out and promote yourself to be that leader they see. Zach: No, 100%, and let me double-click on one thing you just said. I'm not gonna lie to you. What a huge pet peeve is, like, the whole "we don't have the pipeline, we don't see [them]." Like, so much of that is, like... if you just open your eyes, like, in today's era, right? So some of it is perception, how you present yourself, and there's a certain level of accountability that we have to take in terms of how we show up. At the same time--and I don't want to speak to insurance, 'cause that is a space that I'm not wholly familiar with, but I will speak to, like, technology, right? So okay, like, Facebook and other, like, larger technology firms will say, "Well, we have this diversity problem because we don't really have the pipeline," but the reality is there are tons of pockets of people, like Black Girls Who Code, Black Code Collective. There's all types of, like, groups out there and pockets, and there's black folks at these PWIs and HBCUs. There's organizations out there that do have the talent. I think the challenge is that what I'm not seeing, like, across the board is, like, a truly, like, intersectional and inclusive talent sourcing strategy when it comes to actually identifying that talent and then making sure that those folks are actually represented in terms of what does it look like for you to go out to those schools or engage these different groups or partner with these various organizations. Like, if you look in the same places for this diverse talent, then yeah, you may not find it, but if you actually just kind of broaden your scope a bit you may actually find the folks you're looking for, you know?Deidre: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I truly believe it, and that's one of the things I help, you know, my clients with is figure out where do you find this diverse talent. And diversity means so many different things to so many different people, and I know all industries are different, but I will say for us it's typically--they go to the same colleges because they typically want someone with a risk management degree. Risk management degrees are very--you know, they're not that often you find them. There's only a certain amount of schools, and those schools are not necessarily diverse. And mind you, the majority of people that come into our industry don't have interest in insurance or a risk management background. Like, I had sociology, right? But I did my job really well. So I'm like, knowing the statistics that the majority of people come in without this, I'm like, "Why would you narrow the focus?" So I think the first thing is find transferrable skills, companies, you know, and then people, be open to other industries besides your own that could be promising, because insurance is a couple trillion dollar industry. There's really a lot of interesting things going on right now. There's InsureTech, which is infusing technology with insurance. There's all these new risks out there, like with Bitcoin, and, you know, you have, you know, a shared economy and all kinds of fun stuff. So it's a lot of great things. So whether you're a company, find people with transferrable skills. Go to professional organizations, whether it is, like, you know, Ascent, Prospanica, National Black [?], and find people with the skill sets who obviously are leaders in their space but might not be leaders in your space. Also, look and see where else people are at, because--I don't know, maybe technology is a better judge [?] of this, but I'm like, "Are companies really leveraging social media and new forms of communication to find people?" A lot of times no, so that's what you gotta do.Zach: No, straight up. In fact, let me just go ahead and [straight up sfx, both laugh]. Yeah, I agree. Straight up. Man, that's a wonderful soundbite. So you talk a lot about inclusion and diversity within the context of leadership, and these are my questions, right? Can you 1. explain why I&D is important to you and then practical ways you reinforce and you would encourage other leaders to reinforce inclusive behaviors?Deidre: Yes. Why does it matter to me? Straight up I will just say it's because [both laughing] I was working in the industry, and my [?] a generation, so I quote-unquote belong here. We're very--I would say the industry typically is a lot of second-generation or multi-generation people in the industry, but I didn't actually feel like I belonged because, like I said, I didn't really see many people who looked like me. So just having that self-awareness, I'm like--and I was complaining, and someone was like, "Deidre, stop complaining." Like, "Do something." I got really involved in diversity and inclusion work, whether it was from volunteering or being part of organizations. So that was kind of--I had skin in the game, and I had to be the change I wanted to see, and I spoke at a lot of events about that. That's actually how I got my job, because I was on stage speaking at this event for my current company, and the CEO saw me and was like, "Deidre, I like your ideas," and that's why I promote people. If you have great ideas and solutions, go and speak and do that so you can find the right opportunities to be poached for those opportunities. But what are practical and tactical ways to be more inclusive? I would say diversify your network to the point you said of poaching talent or finding talent, but also who you mentor and who mentors you. So think about this. Yes, it is really important to have a person of color as your mentor in this space, but also it's good to have people who don't look like you. I try to, as much as possible, find mentors or colleagues who have different backgrounds, whether it's from they were in the military or they're male or they're white or whatever, but just different people. They give me perspective on things, and I find that very, very helpful, and also feedback on what they're receiving from me and my brand. Also I would say as a leader, if you're a manager or just anybody on a team, learn people's learning styles and how they communicate and bring out the best in them, because not everyone's extroverted, so they're not always gonna communicate how they feel, but maybe they're better in smaller groups or maybe they're great with projects and running with things, but don't assume that your way of communicating and doing things are the best. But I would just ask people, like, "Hey, what's the best to bring out your best so that we can get your A game at the office and that we can make sure you're satisfied?" And then lastly is speak up and speak out. If you're in a place of privilege in any aspect, I would address things, whether at a meeting and a woman's trying to talk and you're a man and someone's interrupting her--call that out, you know? Like, "Hey," you know, "I think Sheena wants to talk," or if you're a person in corporate--like, for me it's like, "Hey, I've been getting a lot of opportunities. How do I make sure I teach other women of color, people who are underrepresented, how to get speaking engagements so that they can have--I can see more diversity on this stage when I'm at events and not be the only one?" So I would just say speak out, diversify your network, and learn people's learning styles.Zach: I love that. And you're absolutely right, like, in terms of diversifying your network. So what I've learned--what I've been learning in my career is to have--as a black man--to have some white men in my network, right? And, like, I love it because--so I'm not trying to brag on myself. I'm just saying I really do like, enjoy, building authentic relationships, and I'm not gonna put--I'm not gonna make the block too hot for my friend so I'm not gonna drop his name, but I have a very good friend. He's a dear friend of mine, and we met at work. White guy, and, you know, a fairly conservative background, and I would just say, like, across the board, like, fairly conservative white man, and at the same time he and I met because he saw that I was being treated inequitably on a project, and he advocated for me, and that's how we became friends, and we've been friends for years now through that. But what's interesting is as I kind of talk to him about challenges I'm having or, like, "Man, I don't know how I would handle this," and I'm thinking about, like, all of these fairly, like, referential ways to do something or just, I don't know, kind of--like I'm choosing certain binaries because of--I don't want to say classically conditioned, but the way that I've been raised, I just think "Well, this is the way to do things." He's coming at it from, like, a different perspective. He's coming at it from a perspective of a privileged white man. So he's like, "Well, Zach, you don't have to do that. Just do this," and it's like, "Oh, my gosh. I would never even think to try that," right? And so it's, like, opening your eyes a bit. Something else you said now. I know you talked about, like, in meetings, right, when you said, like, if there's a woman talking, you as a man saying, "Hey, you know, I think she has something to say." Like, "Please, if you could give it a listen." I would also challenge that, if you're a white woman in those positions and you have, like, a black man or a [?] of color, use that privilege too, Cassandra. Becky. Charlotte. You know, just help us out, please, because we need it as well. I think there's some intersectionality that should be considered--Karen. There's another name. I was just trying to think of some other names. Anyway, so as we continue forward, right, and we talk a little bit about, like, relationships and networking, can we talk about, like, coalition building? You kind of alluded to it already, but its role in developing a leadership profile. So you talked about building this network, but, like, what does it look like for you historically to build mutually beneficial relationships? And do you have any examples of when those relationships have come into play to benefit you?Deidre: Yeah, that's a great question. I would say I always wanted to make things mutually beneficial. I just come from a standpoint--I don't like moochers, and I don't want to be a moocher. I just--I just think that it's kind of tacky, honestly.Zach: It is tacky.Deidre: It just turns me off, and it's bad for my brain to be like, "She's always asking for something but not returning it." So I've always kind of been that way. I will say my trick is--and it's not even a trick, it's really just what I do--I always end a conversation, meeting or whatever, asking people how can I be of service to them, because 1. it helps me know, like, how I can actually help them, and 2. it makes me think of who in my network can also help them. So I've connected a lot of people for business opportunities, job opportunities, just personal opportunities through having this network. "Oh, you want A? I know someone over there who can connect you with that," or "You want this," and so I would just say ask the question. It doesn't cost you a thing, but you might make an impact in how--it's always come back to help me. Like, I've never had a situation where it hasn't. 1. Either I made a new friend or had goodwill or 2. people reached out to me--like, I get a lot of referrals for business, whether it's for my job or for speaking opportunities or just leadership opportunities. I got an award for I guess being myself and being helpful to people and always leveling them up. I find that I'm stronger when I have a stronger circle around me, so I'm always trying to find who those people are, so I build it by--[coin sfx, Deidre laughs]--by, you know, being out there and publicly speaking. A lot of people I meet through Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, you know, just the interwebs, because I put myself out there or I comment on what they're saying because it's compelling to me. And so there's different ways to have mutually beneficial relationships. I just think 1. you gotta be open to them, 2. you actually gotta follow up and do what you say you're gonna do, but when it comes to--like, I come from an abundance mindset. I don't ever think that it can't be more than one leader. It can't be more than one of us. So I think we all have to get out of the mindset of that "I can't help somebody else because I lose something." [and i oop sfx] You only have something to gain by helping somebody else out.Zach: Come on, now. I 100% agree. And you know what? And that's another point--you're absolutely right, like, about following up. Look, [both laugh] people send--Deidre: You know.Zach: I do know. Listen, look, I look at my little emails, and thank God--you know what? This is not an ad. Shout-out to y'all, Gmail, 'cause y'all do the whole thing. "You received this three days ago. Follow up?" That has helped me so much. I be in that inbox--I'm in that inbox like [bratbratbrat sfx]. I'm like--[both laugh].Deidre: Yeah, you're in there.Zach: I be following up. Like, "Hey, we had this conversation. I just wanted to circle back and make sure we're good." Deidre, you did that with me!Deidre: Yeah. [laughs]Zach: You gotta. Hey, you gotta do it. Life is crazy. Life is just so busy. It's important. Okay, so let's pivot a little bit. In your article "Why Strategic Companies Must Manage Diversity & Inclusion As A Business Risk"--it was recently published in Savoy Magazine--can we talk a little bit about the piece and what inspired that?Deidre: Yeah. So, you know, risk management is my background. It's always on my brain, whether it's from personal risk management to, like, company, and I say that because people think of risk always as a bad thing, but risk is--you know, based on the [?]--it talks about, you know, the possibility of a loss, no gain, or a gain. So you can have different levels of risk, and so with diversity and inclusion, it can--if you do it right, it can help you gain [?]. If you do it wrong, it can be harmful. And let's be clear, we see all of these things in the news, all of these headlines, and people are failing with diversity and inclusion, and I just want to help educate the consumer and companies and people about why this has to be a strategic risk and opportunity. So let's look at, you know, the news. So Papa John's, he's going over here saying the N word, you know, during conference calls, had to step down as a leader, and from that incident, you know, within a month their store sales fell 10%. You know, Dolce and Gabbana, they had a situation where they had a model, you know, who was Asian looking like she was eating, like, pizza with chopsticks, and, like, it was inappropriate, and then calling, like--and then what happened was they had to cancel a fashion show. Consumers were, like, destroying their products, and then their products were removed from different platforms in China. Like, Chinese magazines, Alibaba, whatever, and then another case is, you know, the Conrad Miami, a hotel out there, they discriminated--a manager discriminated against a woman. She asked to have Sundays off when she started the job because of her religious reasons. They ended up having to pay her punitive damages of $21 million, you know, and others for lost wages because she was fired as a retaliation for wanting to go to church, and she asked for tha ttime off. And so I say this because when it goes wrong, it costs companies money.Zach: You're 100% right, right? Like, you think about, like, Angry Orchard. So they just recently had a situation where they interrupted this couple trying to get married. This man was trying to propose to his girlfriend. They accused them of stealing merchandise and eventually kicked them out of there. So no, I'm 100% with you. So of course that then draws boycotts and all types of negative press [?]. Now, look, I don't personally drink Angry Orchard. This also is not an ad, but, you know--Deidre: That's some Angry Orchard right there. [laughs]Zach: [?]. People angry at the Orchard, okay? For the wrong and right reasons, mm-hmm. Okay, please continue though.Deidre: No, but that's where I'm coming from. Obviously I know--so when I say I'm hosting and organizing a diversity and inclusion conference, we are concentrating as a risk management community, talking about how we can help the risk management community get a hold on this from a strategic standpoint of either making insurance companies money or saving them through talent acquisition and getting the right talent, because we know if you lose employees you lose a certain amount of money trying to rehire people. We know what these--so think about this. When these companies have lawsuits, how are they getting paid? Typically through insurance. When it's a lawsuit and a claim. Unless it's--Zach: That's right.Deidre: Yeah, so it's really important to my industry strategically, from whether it's their internal practices or what they're paying out, especially if they're million-dollar claims or lawsuits, what's going on. So it's a strategic risk to think about how do we leverage it to grow our revenue and our brands, and also how do we minimize issues so that we're not losing money or losing top talent?Zach: I love it. I think that, you know, it's just interesting because--and I keep saying it's interesting, right? So you know--you know, Deidre, how when you talk to people you have certain things that you say as your pivot word? "It's interesting" is, like, my pivot word slash phrase, but I'm going to work on that. I'm gonna work on that after this interview, because I won't stop right now, but--Deidre: Can't stop, won't stop.Zach: Well, I will stop eventually.Deidre: [laughs] Not today, but you will tomorrow.Zach: Not today. It's about being introspective in the moment. I think that, you know, live introspection can help you actually move forward as opposed to--'cause you may not think about it again, so I'm calling it out right now in the middle of this interview awkwardly. So as I get older and I just pay attention, you know--and I'm bringing this up based off what you just talked about with the business imperative and the strategic imperative of inclusion and diversity--I realize though how much of the world I navigate is catered to white experiences, expectations, and comfort, and that doesn't really--that's not exclusive to--it's inclusive of corporate America as well, and when I think about the work that you're doing, in some way or another simply even bringing up otherness pushes up against some of those levels of comfort. So how do you navigate the fragility that comes with discussing non-whiteness in majority-white spaces?Deidre: You know... maybe that's my pivot word, "you know." [Zach laughs] I've been trained for this job and position--all my life I've been trained for this, because growing up, you know, from kindergarten to half of college I was in majority-white spaces. Like, my elementary school K through 8, my sister and I and maybe three other kids were black. Like, it was just mostly white. So I guess to me--the thing about this is with any idea or concept you're selling people on, you've gotta tell 'em what's in it for them, and I think that's a clear thing. And also don't make people feel ashamed for learning and uncovering bad habits. Like, for ex--and I don't know, think about this. If somebody, you know, for example, like you said, if you're saying a trigger word to pivot things, right? "Oh, you know, Zach, like, every time you transition you keep on saying "interesting." That's horrible." You're gonna be like, "Dang, that hurt me," right? It's just the same thing as saying, "Hey, you know, you always interrupt women." Like, "Why are you doing that?" That would not be my tactic when it, you know, comes to whether it's women issues, people of color, or whatever. So I always try to think of, you know, how to come out of a situation, whether it's for a person or a company or whatever, of how to tell them what's in it for them. So for example, "Hey, Acme Company, you're doing great when it comes to business practices, when it comes to just, like, in general." Like, "You're making money. Have you thought about the strategic risk of not having diverse talent and not really investing that?" "Oh, we have diverse talent." "Yeah, yeah, but do you understand the demographics are changing?" And companies are having either corporate social responsibility plans or diversity and inclusion initiatives that require or ask for diversity and what you're strategically doing. "Let me help you with that. Let me help you formulate a plan, 'cause I want you to succeed," or "Hey, I want you to be a good leader. Do you know about, you know, people are being evaluated now on how they are inclusive leaders? I have tools and resources if you want my help," and then they gotta ask for the help or say, "Yes, I want the help," you know? But at least make people aware of things in a way that you're helping them and less from a point of accusation or you're doing something wrong, because we all make mistakes, but until we're made aware of in a way that's safe and safe to admit--I have people tell me, "Deidre, like, you know, you put these things out there with diversity and inclusion that makes me rethink things, and you say it in a safe way so I don't feel threatened," and I'm like, "Thank you for saying that, because that is very uncomfortable, to say that you feel uncomfortable and threatened by things because you don't know what you're doing, so I'm happy to help you." Now, everyone doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to be the burden of a minority to educate the majority on their pain or frustration. That is a lot of--it's just a lot of work, but I'm choosing this work, so I'm using my power and my platform to do that. So it's a choice involved, but you've gotta either step up and be open to changing and pivoting your messaging to make real impact.Zach: I love that, and you're absolutely right that it is a choice, and there are different methods to do that. I do love the fact that you said, you know, black and brown folks and just non-white cisgendered folks, non-white male cisgendered folks, we're not obligated to carry the burden of educating people, so I'ma just go ahead and give you this right here. [applause sfx] Just so people--'cause, you know, there's also this narrative of like, "Well, how can they know if you don't teach 'em?" Like, 'cause they got Google. Like, people learn how to code.Deidre: That is what I--I'm like, "You can Google or YouTube anything."Zach: [laughing] You can Google so much.Deidre: Now, Zach, the thing about--I won't deal with ignorance to the point where people, like, trolls and stuff like that, like, I don't have time for Trolls. I'm not a troll collector. I don't really like those dolls or people, so I don't play with them. I don't play with Trolls. Okay, but people who are really open to learning, yeah.Zach: Right, that's the qualifier. They gotta be open to learning, but I like the fact that from the jump you said, you know, you've been--basically you've been molded for this, you know what I'm saying? Like, you've been, you know what I'm saying, like--[to this day sfx]--right? Like, you're doing it, right? [both laugh]Deidre: And I don't know about your background. For me, I also--that's why I strategically chose to go to Spelman College. I went to Atlanta. I visited out there for homecoming. My cousin went to Clark and I was like, "This is poppin'." I transferred in the middle of my college experience. And so I--1. I wanted the experience, but I've never been a majority in an all mostly black woman environment, and it was kind of a reality shock. So I also say on the flip side, if you've always been other, you might want to try to be in the majority because it really is a way to reframe your identity, because on one side, yeah, it's a lot of issues and stress being other and always trying to, like, reinforce what you're doing, but sometimes it's also a platform to make you stick out and people look up to you and whatever versus you blend in. I mean, no one realized I was new for a while. I had to tell people, "Hey, I'm a new girl. I don't know where I'm going," because I was camouflaged. And so I say that because, you know, there's no real perfect spectrum on this and what you can do, so I would just say use your platform no matter what you're doing to help things out. And I also say this because I had a mentor, and she was like, "Deidre--" I was young, this was my first job. She said, "You are a young, attractive black woman in this space, and no one looks like you. You're gonna get people's attention no matter what. Make sure when you do it's for a reason." So minorities people, you stand out, you know, whatever it is that you--if you stand out in your space, actually leverage that as a tool to stand out for a reason and get your agenda across or, you know, use your thought leadership, because, I mean, it is a gift and a curse, so why not use it to your benefit?Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And, you know, for me, 'cause I typically do stand out, right? So I'm a black man--I'm, like, 6'1". I'm a pretty big dude, right? I'm, like, 270, 280. Like, I'm a big guy, right? And so, you know, I know that I'm gonna stick out, and then plus I have this weird, like, Southern/Connecticut accent because my mother was an English teacher, but I'm also very country at the same time, and so I have--it's a unique profile, so when I show up I'm just--look, I'm trying to--I'm trying to make a show, right? And not, like, in a Bojangles kind of way, but I mean make an impact, you know what I mean? I show up like--I show up, I'm like [what it do baby sfx]. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm out here, okay? And, like, you know, I'll bring you in with the jokes and stuff, but then if you're actually trying to challenge me, like, I actually have some--you know, I have some intellectual rigor behind what I'm saying, right? I might hit you with some multi-syllabic words, you know? Whatever. So I hear you is my point. Okay, this has been a great conversation. Any parting words or shout-outs before we let you go?Deidre: Yeah, shout-out to myself. I'm Deidre Wright. I'm here--Zach: Ayo, she said shout-out to myself. Oh, my gosh. Yo, wait a second. [air horns sfx, both laughing]Deidre: Because if there's nothing else you learn this session, it's that you gotta advocate for yourself. You've gotta be your best cheerleader. Man, shout yourself out. There's a way to do it, but do it, 'cause if we don't do it, who will? And I say this because there are so many people I meet, young people, and they're like, "I would never think you work in insurance. You don't look like that," and I give them a different alternative reality and role model. So by advocating for yourself--I tell people it's selfish not to share your expertise. It's selfish not to say who you are and what you're doing, because you could be motivating so many different people by just sharing and promoting yourself and inspiring generations. [chaching sfx] So advocate for yourself, you know? Find me at DeidreWright.com. Also I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram. So at Instagram I'm @DeidreWrite, like I'm writing, you know, my life story, and just holler at me if I can help you with either personal branding, diversity and inclusion, and uplifting our people of all kinds to advance and promote diversity and inclusion.Zach: My goodness, gracious. You know, over 100 episodes we have never had a guest say, "Shout-out to me, yo." Not "shout-out to my mom," not "shout-out to my people." "Shout-out to me." I love it. No, no, 100%, and Deidre, we'll make sure we have all of your links and stuff in the show notes, so no pressure there. Okay. Well, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast. You know where we're at. Look, just Google Living Corporate at this point. That's right. It's a slight flex, but it's a true flex, okay? You Google--if you go to Google--shout-out to Google, 'cause this is not an ad--Google, Yahoo, Bing... what's another search engine, Deidre?Deidre: AskJeeves I guess is no longer here.Zach: AskJeeves? Yo. [both laugh]Deidre: Ask him. [both laugh]Zach: What you gonna say next, BlackPlanet? Xanga? AskJeeves? [both laugh]Deidre: MySpace. I mean, I still can't get into my old MySpace page. Forgot my passwords, but you can probably find me there too.Zach: My MySpace was fire back in the day. Anyway, the point is we're out here, okay? And we're really enjoying the fact that y'all are listening to this podcast, so shout-out to y'all. If you want to subscribe to the newsletter, again, just Google Living Corporate, you click the link, and there's a subscribe button right there, right when you click on the website, okay? We have new content. Of course we got this dope content right here. We got new blogs. Make sure you just check us out, okay? This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Deidre Wright right now - right on time - she's just right.Deidre: You know that's right.Zach: You know it's right. Not white, right?Deidre: But Deidre's right.Zach: Deidre's right. [both laugh] Deidre: Thanks, Zach, man. I appreciate it, and let me know if I can ever be of service to you.Zach: All right, we'll talk soon. Peace.

How do you get to know someone important? You Google them, follow them online, study their tweets and read their books. Then you know them right? Christians do the same thing with God. They read his book, sing his songs and go to his meetings. So they know him, right? Click on the video and let’s find out.   Click ... Read More The post Don’t repeat my mistake about knowing God appeared first on Dr. Grant Mullen.

You're watching TV or a movie when an unfamiliar actor catches your eye. Something clicks, but you don't know it yet. "They're okay," you might mutter to yourself, but you let the thought pass, or even push it deep down, but the feeling keeps bubbling back up. Maybe you won't recognize your true feelings until the end of the movie or the next episode, but this denial is like your mind is prepping itself for the approaching storm. You can't deny this new crush for long, because this person refuses to leave your thoughts. The more you think about them, the closer you get to fully embracing what's happening to you. You Google them for a little more insight, completely unaware that you've just opened Pandora's Box. @wynonnaearp #wayhaught #positive representation @drwho @supernatural Share and like this episode. Thank you for listening. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/humpdaybrunchpod/support

You finally decided to go to couples counseling, but now you have to find a good therapist. You Google couples counseling in your area and you start making some calls. How do you know which one is the right therapist for your relationship? Do you determine by price, availability, location? Or are there more criteria you should look for and ask your prospective therapist about? Answers to these questions and the actual 5 questions you should ask are all in this episode presented by your host - relationship expert Idit Sharoni. To send us questions you'd like answered in a future podcast: Please write your question in one paragraph (no more than 5 sentences) in the following format and email idit@iditsharonicounseling.com  Type of relationship (marriage, dating, etc.) Length of relationship Your story + your question to Idit Sharoni  Remember, you will absolutely remain anonymous  For more information about the podcast and Idit Sharoni visit: www.iditsharoni.com

So, how do you create a women's hockey podcast? You Google it. Welcome to the inaugural episode of Unofficial Woho Radio, a podcast by women's hockey fans, for women's hockey fans! Join co-hosts Tay, Lauren and Alice as they introduce themselves and dive into topics like how they got into women's hockey, those super stressful Cup Finals, #OneLeague and how much they love Markham's jerseys. Podcast Socials Website Twitter Tumblr Find Us On Twitter - Alice - Lauren - TayCheck out our Patreon page, and get access to cool exclusive stuff like bloopers, bonus episodes, stickers and more by heading over there and supporting the show. Come join our Discord server!Our theme music is Please Listen Carefully by Jahzzar. It is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0.Support us by donating to our tip jar, our ko-fi or by becoming a patron on Patreon.

This is our annual celebration of the celebrities we lost in the previous year (being 2016). Andy, the Harbinger of Doom, takes the reins as we each talk about two entertainers that we would like to You-Google-ize. Links to the important bits are below. David Bowie The Man Who Fell to Earth Labyrinth Zoolander Twin […]

This is our annual celebration of the celebrities we lost in the previous year (being 2016). Andy, the Harbinger of Doom, takes the reins as we each talk about two entertainers that we would like to You-Google-ize. Links to the important bits are below. David Bowie The Man Who Fell to Earth Labyrinth Zoolander Twin […]

In this episode I want to point you in the direction of an incredible free resource. It's Joost De Valk's The definitive guide to higher rankings for wordpress sites. You can find it at https://yoast.com/articles/wordpress-seo/ If you have a wordpress site which I know many, many of my listeners do, then you owe it to yourself to read this post because if you are working hard producing content with your wordpress website then it's a given that you want search engine traffic. You Google, bing and yahoo to pick up your content and rank for the relevant keywords so that it gets found. This definitive guide really does give you everything you need to know about how to rank your wordpress site higher. You're already investing time in your site so why not invest the time read this guide so that your content has the best chance of getting traffic, getting read, being monetized and getting you the ROI you want. Once again you can find over at https://yoast.com/articles/wordpress-seo/

Dr. Nathan Fox is a practicing OB/GYN and Maternal Fetal Medicine provider in New York City. Two of his children were also VBAC babies! He joins Meagan on the podcast today where they discuss topics in depth to help listeners make more informed decisions about their VBACs. Topics today include where to find evidence-based information, how to interpret it, the risks of uterine rupture, VBAC and COVID-19, induction, scar thickness, due dates, and third-trimester ultrasounds. Additional LinksHealthful Woman WebsiteMFM, High-Risk Pregnancy New York City WebsiteNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, hello. You guys, it's November. How are we at the end of 2023? It is crazy how fast this year has gone. We have a special guest today. It's Dr. Nathan S. Fox. He is so amazing to come on today to talk to us about a couple of topics that I don't know if we've actually ever talked about on the podcast. We're going to be talking about scar thickness. We're going to talk about third-trimester ultrasounds. We're going to be talking a little bit about COVID and is it really best to induce at 39 weeks? We've had COVID. What does it mean with our placenta? We know we've been hearing it out there where our placentas are not doing well. So you guys, get ready. Buckle up. It's going to be great. I want to tell you a little bit about Nathan Fox first. He is a board-certified OB/GYN and he is also certified in MFM which is Maternal Fetal Medicine. In his clinic, he sees a lot of higher risk and unique situations. He did his residency at Mount Sinai. He has an amazing podcast that really dials in on helping people know the evidence and then also understanding the evidence in English because if you are like me, you'll know that it is kind of hard to break down some of these studies sometimes and it's hard to understand what the evidence is even saying and then how to apply it. He has this podcast and it is Healthful Woman. We are going to make sure that it is linked. You guys, he has so many incredible guests on there talking about a wide range of things. It's not VBAC-specific, but it definitely has a wide range of topics and things that you're probably going to love. Definitely check that out. We'll have it in the show notes. Dr. Fox, seriously, we are so grateful for you today. We can't wait to have you on. We'll be right back. Dr. Nathan FoxMeagan: All right, I need to pull up those questions really fast. There are a lot. Literally, we do not have to get to all of them. Dr. Fox: I'll come back if you want. Don't worry about it. Meagan: Yeah, we'll have to do a part two. You are so sweet to take the time out of your busy life, I'm sure. Dr. Fox: We are mission-aligned as they say in the fancy world. It's about getting good education, and good information out to people so they don't have to hear crazy stuff on the World Wide Web and get terrified. Meagan: Right. That's why we started this podcast even just to share stories of people who are having VBACs so people can hear and learn through those VBACs and also know it is an option and it is possible. I have a question. You said before we started recording that you have two VBAC babies. Dr. Fox: Yeah. Meagan: How was that journey as an OB and MFM? Was your wife getting information that you were like, “Wait, that's not true,” or were you like, “Actually, we need to think about this”? How was that journey as someone in the field?Dr. Fox: Full disclosure, I was getting into the field. I have four kids. My first two are twins and they were born when I was a medical student so I knew very little. I guess more than nothing, but closer to nothing than where I am now. They were born by C-section. Both of them were breech. Thank God, both of them did great. All was well. With the next one, my wife was pregnant when I was a second to third-year resident in OB/GYN. For most of her pregnancy, I was a second-year, then she was born a month after I became– not even. She was born July 17th so 16 days after starting my third year. Meagan: Right after, yeah. Dr. Fox: I knew a little bit more then. That was our first VBAC. Then my fourth was born when I was an MFM fellow. I like to say that I had kids in all of my points in training. Honestly, we didn't think much about VBAC in terms of being this grand decision and conversation. I would say mostly because the OB my wife was seeing was on board with it and didn't make it into a big deal and she was delivering at a hospital at Mount Sinai where I trained and where I now practice where VBAC is commonly done. There was a conversation about it. It wasn't like we were blind to it, but it was part of the normal culture in that hospital on the labor floor so we didn't think much about it. My wife said, “Why would I want a repeat C-section if I can try and do it vaginally?” It worked out fine, thank God for both of them. The third was also actually a forceps. We're like a textbook of obstetrics, my wife. But yeah. It wasn't dramatic. Let's put it that way, the VBAC process.Meagan: Wow. Yeah. I love hearing about it that it was just a thing. It didn't have to be a big deal. She was just going in and wanted to have a baby. She didn't want to have a C-section.Dr. Fox: Yeah, again, I think it is something that should be discussed. People should understand and not even everyone understands that it is a thing meaning people don't even realize why you wouldn't. Meagan: Why you would not, yeah. Dr. Fox: There is risk, but ultimately, if it is an option, the risk of a VBAC– again, in the right person– is not markedly higher than the risk of a C-section. So it's a conversation. Which risk would you prefer or which risk would you least prefer? So that conversation was very straightforward. “Would you want a repeat C-section? Would you want a VBAC?” She was like, “I want a VBAC.” Fine, so that was done. It wasn't like she had to meet with an attorney to go over everything and sign a waiver or anything like that which sometimes happens. Meagan: Yeah. I love hearing that. Well, I am so excited that you are here with us today. I know that we have so many questions to dive into. They're kind of all over the place. With the first one, I think a lot of our community members– we have a Facebook community, a forum, and one of the most common posts in there is looking for a provider that is supportive because they were with a provider and then they found out that the provider that was seemingly supportive is not supportive anymore. It all seems to focus around things with evidence-based information and they're getting all of the different things. One of the questions is why is it so hard to find evidence-based information on VBAC, VBAMC, and uterine rupture– because we have some providers that are saying you have a 60% chance of uterine rupture and then some saying you have a 0.4-1% chance. Those are very dramatic numbers. The range of answers is just so wide. I'm just wondering why do you think it's so hard and where can we find this information. Where would you suggest our listeners go? Let's talk about your podcast being one of those places. It's not just VBAC-specific. Your podcast isn't VBAC-specific but it's very, very good at a whole, wide range. But yeah, can we talk about where to find evidence-based information about birth in general but especially about VBAC? Dr. Fox: I mean, yeah. That's really the million-dollar question. I think that both the problem and solution are essentially that we have access to all of the information that's ever been available ever. There was a great Simpson's thing where Homer Simpson said, “Beer. The cause of and the solution to all of my problems.” Information is the same way. On the one hand, it is unbelievable how much information we have access to and that's a great thing. It's not hidden. It's not only amongst the elite that have the information. Everyone can have the same information so that's the good part. The bad part is it's very difficult to sift through all of that information and find a) what's correct or b) what's applicable to me. So for example, let's say I'm someone who has a prior C-section and I have a friend who is also someone who has a prior C-section, but one of us has a prior low transverse C-section and one of us has a prior classical C-section. How do we know that we have different percent risks? It's a high level in a certain sense. So sometimes the websites or the podcasts or whatever will spell it out for you and explain it very clearly, but other times, you just get a list like, “Okay, the risk is this, this, this, and this.” You can't really apply it appropriately. One of the things we try to do in our podcasts is to be much more user-friendly and to really explain it and what would apply to you, what wouldn't in certain situations, and what questions to ask, but I would say for people trying to find information, usually it's a shotgun approach. You Google something and find a website then find a list. You have to be very cautious and make sure that this applies to me and my unique circumstances. Hopefully, you have a doctor or a midwife who can help you with that. You might not. It's possible that you may not. The other part is sometimes, it's hard to interpret data. Understanding medical literature is a science. It's something that we train to do. We practice it. I do a weekly journal club with the OB/GYN residents. This is the top of the food chain. These are the smartest of the smart. They got into a great undergraduate. They got into medical school. They got into residency. These are really, really smart people. It's not always intuitive when you read a study or several studies on how to interpret it and apply what is and isn't applicable. It's very difficult stuff. I would say don't be dismayed if you are not understanding the information out there or seeing such variation because you are in the same boat as all of us. It's hard. It's hard to get the right information out there. Meagan: It is. Yeah. Even when I'm reading through studies or things, it's even hard for me to just understand what it's saying and what the relevance is of it and all of it, so yeah. It's really hard. I think what you said, “Don't be dismayed,” it can be really frustrating when we're out there and we're like, “Okay, I have a special scar or not a normal low, transverse incision. What does this mean for me? What does this mean for my future? What does this mean for right now?” It's really hard.I think you nailed it where one friend can have this and one friend can have this. You can both have similarities in your risks, but they also don't apply because there are other things going on in addition. Dr. Fox: There are facts like what is the truth? What is the true fact? There are always some brackets around those numbers because different studies will find different things. Let's say one study finds 1% and one study finds 4%. Is it 1? Is it 4? Is it the average of the two? Is it a range from 1-4? There are some nuances in that. But then there is also trying to sift through the interpretation of the fact. A lot of that is why sometimes you'll see different doctors feel differently about something. For example, let's say the risk of uterine rupture is– let's just do very rounded, broad numbers. Don't hold me to it. Let's say the risk of uterine rupture is 1% and if you've had two C-sections, let's say it's 2%. Let's say those are the true numbers and you can argue about those. Those are the numbers. I could describe those very differently. I could say to somebody, “All right, you've had one C-section. Your risk of rupture is 1%. You've had two. It's a little bit higher. You need to know that it's now 2%. Maybe your chance of a successful VBAC is a little bit lower.” Okay. I could say it that way or I could say, “Whoa, your risk of uterine rupture where the baby could die is doubled.” Right? Meagan: Yeah. That just gave me the chills. Dr. Fox: That's the same number. I've said the same thing in two very different ways. One person hears it and says, “It doesn't sound like a big deal. My doctor said it's fine.” Another person said, “My doctor said that my baby is going to die.” Meagan: Doubled and die, yeah. Dr. Fox: It's understandable because the doctors and midwives, people who are pregnant are all humans. Humans are complicated beings. We have emotions. We have fears. We have experiences. We have anxieties. We have all of these things that come into our heads and it colors how we view risk and how we describe it to other people. So I would say that another lesson is when you are getting information, try to differentiate the numbers and the hard facts from the interpretation of the number or the feeling about the number. That's why you always have to be very cautious when someone says increased, higher, or doubled. That's a relative risk, right? The risk of something is increased. Well, by how much? Is it increased a lot or a little? If the number was very, very low, is it still very, very low but a little bit higher?I always give people an example. If I walk across the street, there's a certain chance that someone moving a piano is going to fall on my head. If I look up every time I cross the street, I'm going to lower that risk but it doesn't matter. The risk is so low to begin with that it doesn't have any practical application to me. It's sort of the same thing. You can talk about something increasing or decreasing your risk, but if the risk is still very, very low anyway, it may not matter to the person practically. Trying to get that from a provider is sometimes difficult because they may not know themselves the actual numbers. They may just know increased or doubled or this. They may be so colored by it that they have a hard time talking about it just as numbers or vice versa. They might just give you hard numbers and you want to know how they feel about it and they're not giving it to you. It is hard, but that's one thing to try to think about or differentiate. Meagan: I love that. I love that. Okay, this can be a very political topic. Dr. Fox: Oh, all right. You're not going to mention Trump. Are we going to talk about Trump?Meagan: We are not talking about Trump. Dr. Fox: Everyone in New York talks about Trump. We like him. We hate him. We hate him. We like him. It's all we talk about. Meagan: I bet. I bet in New York, it's really hot. Maybe in New York, this is even a hot topic but we're going to talk a little bit about COVID-19. Dr. Fox: Oh okay. Meagan: We have a lot of moms who had babies during COVID-19. It was a really hard time for everyone involved. Giving birth as a provider, as a nurse, and everybody in life. This whole world of ours. Dr. Fox: It was unpleasant. Meagan: It was and that's putting it nicely, I think, in a lot of ways. Dr. Fox: I still have scars on my face from wearing my N-95 for six straight months. Meagan: I bet. I bet. It is. It was a very traumatic time. Dr. Fox: Yeah. Meagan: We're interested to see if you felt like COVID-19 had an impact on the C-section rate and if you saw more inductions happening and things like that. But right now, we have a lot of our moms being told even today, that if they had COVID-19 during their pregnancy from the time of conception to the end, they have to give birth by 39 weeks. Dr. Fox: By 39 weeks or after? Meagan: By 39 weeks. What they're being told is that their placentas will just crap out. They're just done. So it can be really hard in the VBAC community when they're being told this and then we may have a provider who doesn't want to induce. Dr. Fox: Yeah, yeah. For sure. Meagan: We have providers all over the world who are not comfortable inducing. We have VBAC moms who are like, “I want to have a VBAC. I had COVID when I was 20 weeks. I'm fine. All is well, but now I have to have a baby at 39 weeks. Here I am and my body's not doing it.” Dr. Fox: Yeah. There is a lot there to unpack. No, it's okay. You're throwing fastballs at me. I like it. You're throwing heat. I'm ready. I knew it was coming. Whether COVID increases the risk of things like the placenta crapping out so to speak is itself a controversial question. The data on that is mixed. It seems that there are some people who COVID has a negative impact on their placenta that manifests as the baby is not growing well. It can manifest as the baby getting preeclampsia. The worst-case scenario is that it can manifest as a stillbirth. However, you wouldn't expect the stillbirth to come out of nowhere. You would expect there to be multiple things leading up to it like the baby not growing well, the blood pressure going up, the fluid dropping, and a lot of things instead of a sudden stillbirth. Meagan: Right, warning signs. Dr. Fox: Now, that is different from someone with COVID who is in the midst of a very severe COVID infection. That is very dangerous to the mother and potentially the baby but we're talking about someone who got COVID and recovered or someone who just found out they had COVID and are fine, that type of thing. A) the data is questionable and B) what to do about it is also questionable. Let's say you're over the age of 35. You also have a slightly increased risk of all of those things if you had IVF. There is a whole list of things that put you at increased risk of your placenta crapping out so to speak and what to do about it is also more of a philosophical question than a hard-data question. Whether someone has to be delivered– I wouldn't say before but usually at 39 weeks– because they had COVID, I'm not doing that personally in my practice. We do follow up and do an ultrasound to make sure the baby is growing well, but if someone had COVID at 20 weeks and is otherwise doing well later in pregnancy, we don't say they need to be induced at a certain point. That's not something I'm doing. I'm not aware of anybody in professional societies like ACOG, American College of OB/GYN, or the Society for Maternal Medicine who actually recommended that or advocated that, but again, some individual doctors are very uncomfortable with any risk. I think the other part of this that is really coloring a lot of these discussions nowadays is there was a study called the ARRIVE trial that got published a few years ago. It's a very, very good study. The study was essentially designed to test if inducing everybody– these are low-risk, first-time pregnant moms. The lowest, lowest risk whether inducing everybody at 39 weeks improved outcomes or worsened outcomes. The outcome they really looked at was the death of the baby. It did not have any impact on that in either direction. What they also learned was that the rate of C-sections did not go up by getting induced. That was the biggest, I don't want to say surprised because medically, we actually thought that would happen, but in the community, that was a surprise because everyone was always told that if you get induced, you have an increased risk of C-section so the study did not show that. It showed a slightly lower risk of getting higher blood pressure which makes sense because the longer you are pregnant, the more it goes. The way I look at that study is if I want to induce someone or if a patient wants to be induced at 39 weeks, there's an upside. There's a downside, but the downside does not include an increased risk of C-section. The downside could be longer labor. It takes more time. It's not as pleasant. Okay, fine. That's how I look at the study. Some people took the study and interpreted it to say, “Since there's no risk of C-section, you should induce everyone at 39 weeks. That's the optimal thing to do.” Meagan: And it's happening a lot.Dr. Fox: Yes. There are definitely people interpreting it. I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation because you could say, “Listen, if I'm delivering you, there's no chance for a stillbirth in the next two weeks,” I get it. But I don't think it's the only interpretation and it's also a very impractical interpretation because if you induce someone, the amount of time they are in the labor room is on average 18 hours. 12-24 hours they are in a labor room. A common labor on their own, the average is let's say 6-12 hours or something like that. So if you induce everyone, you need twice as many labor rooms. I don't think every hospital in the country plans to double their labor floor so now, you just can't do it practically. This is a very, very long answer to your question. I think what's happened is that you have a new risk factor which is COVID which is very prevalent. Everybody got COVID basically at some point and you have a new fact that inducing at 39 weeks does not seem to increase the risk of C-section so there are some people concluding, “Well, I have a risk factor, and inducing at 39 weeks isn't ‘bad' so I'm going to affirmatively recommend it on everybody.” That's tough. I don't usually recommend it. If they want it, I think it's an option but I think that that's again, hard to know when you sign up with somebody who has provided prenatal care what their philosophy is. These are questions you probably want to ask very, very early on in prenatal care. Again, the things that really matter. So for example, if it very much matters to you not to have an episiotomy, you should ask very early, “Do you perform routine episiotomies?” Most OBs these days will say no, but if your OB says, “Yeah. I do them on everybody,” and you don't want that, get the hell out. Switch. Meagan: Yeah. It's probably not your provider. Dr. Fox: Yeah, and again, if it doesn't matter to you, then don't ask that question. Or for example, let's talk specifically about VBAC. Very early on, just ask, “What are your thoughts on VBAC?” They're not going to lie to you. They're going to tell you. If they don't tell you, you're going to be able to tell right away. If they say, “VBAC is awesome. I love it. I love it when I can help someone with a VBAC. It's so satisfying. It's rewarding. There are some risks and we can talk about that. I think it's great.” Versus they could tell you, “I don't do them.” Or they say, “Yeah, I'm okay with that but I don't know.” They're telling you. They're telling you that it's okay, but they're clearly not a fan of it. Meagan: They're not gungho about it. Dr. Fox: Or the question is if they're gung-ho, you can say, “What's the culture in your hospital like?” So if they say, “I'm gung-ho, but the labor nurses think it's a stupid thing to do and the hospital is trying to get us to stop doing it because they have a lawsuit and this,” you may have a great doctor or midwife but they may be practicing in a place that isn't supportive. That's also an issue. Again, I guess there are some people who would lie to you because they “want your business”, but most OBs aren't like that because if they don't want to do it, it's because a) they think it's wrong, b) they sort of thing it's okay, but they don't want to get into a lawsuit, or c) they're just afraid. So why would they want to hide that from you? It's the opposite. They would want to tell you upfront. I think if you ask very blunt questions very early, they will tell you. If you have a provider who is uncomfortable, you don't want to be with them for your VBAC. It's not a good match. Meagan: We talk to our community members about that a lot. Don't just say, “Do you support VBAC, yes or no?” It's, “How do you feel about VBAC?” I love the question of, “What is the culture in your labor and delivery unit?” I love, love that. Dr. Fox: Usually, this is a good time when open-ended questions are best.Meagan: Yep, yeah. Dr. Fox: Let them talk. Let them cook. They will tell you their thoughts and you can read it very quickly. Meagan: Their body language, yeah. So circling back to this whole induction thing by 39 weeks, you're saying that there's not really any organization that is hard-core supporting this evidence for someone who has had COVID has to have a baby by 39 weeks. Dr. Fox: I have not heard that of anybody. Usually, if someone said that, it usually wouldn't be by 39 weeks. It's a big thing not to induce people before 39 weeks unless there is a very good reason. Meagan: Yeah, and that's what they're doing. They're inducing at 39 weeks or as soon as possible after but I don't know that anyone is recommending that specifically because of COVID. Again, I'm sure there's someone who might but I don't know. Personally, what I would do is if they had COVID, again, I would just check that everything is okay with the placenta. Usually, in later pregnancy, it's just with an ultrasound and then if everything is fine, I wouldn't. If there is a concern, then it would be based on the concern. There are people who I recommend to get induced at 39 weeks but there is a reason and COVID has not been one of them. Meagan: Okay, that's so good to know. We kind of dabbled into the ARRIVE trial. Can we talk about the 40-week mark? We have seen ever since ARRIVE came out that things have moved up. It's like 40 weeks is really 39 weeks. 41 weeks is 40. Dr. Fox: 39 is the new 40? Meagan: 39 is the new 40, yes. It seems to be happening, not everywhere, but it's happening. We talk about uterine rupture after 40 weeks. Our original 40-week, here we are, we know ACOG suggests or supports going past it, but can we talk about the risk of uterine rupture the further into pregnancy that we go?Dr. Fox: So there are two risks. Part of the reason for the shift going earlier is not because of the risk of uterine rupture. It's more of the risk of stillbirth. As you get more pregnant, if you look at just for the baby- I don't want to say this and be recorded but forget about the mom. Meagan: Let's not think about the mom. Dr. Fox: For this question, we're going to forget about the mom. Mother first, baby second but for this question, you're just looking at the health of the baby and you look at the timing of delivery. Generally, things get better and better for the baby as you get closer to 39 weeks meaning your baby born at 37 does better than at 36 weeks. A baby born at 38 does better than 37 and at 39 does generally better than 38. Once you hit 39, it plateaus and then it starts to diminish meaning that the optimal time for a baby is sometime between 39-41 weeks. As you get past that, it goes down. Part of that is because of stuff after birth like meconium or this and some of it is because some of these babies unfortunately will have stillbirths inside. That's very, very rare and I'm not saying this to scare anybody, but it happens. As you go past your due date further and further, the risk seems to go up. With that said, is it worth inducing because of that? Generally, for a typical, low-risk, healthy person, the difference between 39-41 weeks is very minuscule in terms of the baby. So I don't typically tell people that if you are low risk, then you need to be induced at 39 or 40. I tell people that 39-41 seems to be very similar for the baby or have very, very slight differences and I leave it to people's preferences. If there's someone who wants to get the hell out of pregnancy as soon as possible because they are uncomfortable and they have family coming in town or whatever it might be or they are worried about stillbirth, fine. We can go closer to 39 weeks versus if there's someone who really wants to go into labor on their own, then you wait towards 41 weeks. After 41 weeks, the risk really starts going up so there are people who– I don't really let them– I am okay with them staying past 41 weeks, but generally when we get to 42, pretty much everyone recommends inducing at 42 weeks and pretty much at 41. That's all because of the baby. Now, in that conversation for someone with VBAC, there is a second risk on top of that which is okay, that's for the baby, but what about for uterine rupture? So there doesn't seem to be a huge difference between 39, 40, or 41 weeks for uterine rupture. It's slightly higher if the baby is bigger and it's slightly higher if you induce. So you're sort of balancing, is it better to induce and have a slightly smaller baby or is it better to wait and go into labor on your own and have a slightly bigger baby also knowing that if you don't go into labor on your own, now I'm inducing with a slightly bigger baby? That's part of the risk that you may end up in a situation that is worse. And that again, there isn't a right or a wrong answer. It's a conversation. For people whose doctors or midwives won't induce them, out of principle, the hospital won't allow it, they won't allow it, then yeah. You wait as long as they will let you until it's unsafe for the baby and hope to go into labor on your own. In our practice, we do induce people with a prior C-section. It's a conversation. There are risks that are discussed. They decide, “Is it better to do it earlier? Is it better to do it later?” That's again, a conversation based on taking on all of the risks. The risk of inducing, probably ballpark adds another 1% so if your risk was 1%, it probably makes it 2%. Again, I could tell you that makes it doubled or I could tell you it makes it 2%. But you know, it increases a little bit. Not so much if they've had prior vaginal deliveries. That's more so if they've never had a vaginal delivery. The risk of waiting an extra two weeks is also probably less than 1%. These are very small numbers and I don't want to say pick your poison because neither is really poison, but whichever is sort of more palatable, that's the one you'll do. But again, you have to have someone where both options are on the table and for some people, the option to induce is not on the table. Meagan: So for someone who is really worried about uterine rupture, going to 41 weeks and maybe not getting induced or trying to go into spontaneous labor at 41 weeks, we shouldn't be feeling that we have passed that 41 weeks so our chance of uterine rupture just skyrocketed. Dr. Fox: No. The chance of uterine rupture doesn't really go up markedly the more pregnant you get. If you get induced, it goes up a little bit. You have a risk to the baby of waiting.Meagan: Or a bigger baby. Dr. Fox: But the rupture risk is not markedly changed by your gestational age of delivery. Maybe there are slight differences, but nothing crazy. Meagan: Okay, that's good to know for the audience because they ask that a lot. Dr. Fox: Right. But a lot of people or some of the doctors want a “controlled setting”. It also depends on what the situation is. Again, I practice in an area where people can usually get to the hospital very quickly if they go into labor. But if you are practicing somewhere where someone has– I actually just had someone. She actually was 2 hours away. She comes to our practice because we are a high-risk practice and she doesn't want to go somewhere local, fine. She is someone who has two prior C-sections and this. That does play into this because she's not someone who when she goes into labor is going to be monitored right away. She's 2-3 hours. Meagan: She's far away. Dr. Fox: Yeah, so that is sometimes a factor in these discussions. What you do about it depends but that may be a reason that someone might prefer to have you induced rather than going into labor on your own if they are worried about time to get to the hospital or something like that. Again, usually not relevant for me but sometimes. Meagan: More of a controlled setting.Dr. Fox: Yeah. Meagan: You have a lot of knowledge in imaging and testing and all of these things. We're going to take a little bit of a turn from due dates and all of those things and talk about tests that happen during pregnancy. This is kind of something that comes up a lot. We've got early, middle, and late tests that are happening. A couple that is happening in the early stages is genetic testing. It's becoming a lot more popular and a lot of people are wondering, does this impact my chance of VBAC at all? Does this increase my chance of Cesarean? Can genetic testing impact the mode of birth? Is there anything that you feel that our community should know about that early-on test ritual? Dr. Fox: It shouldn't. It really shouldn't impact anything about the mode of birth. For genetic testing, fortunately, if you get to the point where you are 10, 11, 12, 13 weeks when this is done whether it's a blood test or an ultrasound, if it's a screening test or an invasive test like an amnio, again, fortunately, high 90% of people have a baby with no genetic issues whatsoever, thank God. We are very fortunate. For the few people who unfortunately have a baby with one of those genetic conditions, genetic screening and testing is information. It's just to find out before birth. Now obviously, some people get results and choose to terminate pregnancies. Other people get results and choose not to terminate pregnancies. It's just information they want before birth. That's also another political discussion, obviously. But ultimately, at the end of the day, none of that really impacts the mode of delivery. Occasionally, it impacts the timing of delivery. Sometimes with certain genetic things if there are associated anomalies, then occasionally. So I don't think it really impacts. It would have to be a very rare case where genetic testing would then somehow preclude someone from a VBAC. Meagan: That they would have to have a C-section. Dr. Fox: Again, if it precludes someone from having a VBAC, it would also preclude someone from having a vaginal delivery with their first delivery. There are some abnormalities in babies where they are better off being born by C-section but then it has nothing to do with VBAC. That's just the case. But they are also pretty unusual. Even babies with certain abnormalities can usually be born vaginally safely. But occasionally, there are some that they shouldn't. But again, not specific to VBAC. That's just anybody. So yeah. I think if they want to know more about their baby's genetics, they should do it. They should feel comfortable and if for some reason, they don't want to know, fine. That's okay, too but it should not impact VBAC. Genetics is the most complicated part of all of prenatal care for patients, for doctors, for everybody. We have 6 hours of podcasting on this and it's just scratching the surface because it's complex. It is growing. It's expanding. So definitely try to get educated on that, but the short answer, it should not affect VBAC. Meagan: Yeah, it's seeming like it's growing. Dr. Fox: Huge, huge. Meagan: It's a popular topic. Dr. Fox: We know nothing more about labor than we did 100 years ago, but we know a bajillion times more about genetic testing than we did 100 years ago.Meagan: Well, and if anyone wants to find out more about genetic testing, then we will make sure to link your podcast or one of the episodes and they can filter through. Dr. Fox: Definitely, they're free. Meagan: Okay, so another one, and this is usually done through ultrasound, is the scar thickness. Dr. Fox: Mmm, yeah. Meagan: What is the evidence? What do you have to say about the scar thickness? We have some providers that are like, “Ope, it's too thin. You cannot, will not, absolutely will rupture.” They are making very big comments like that. Dr. Fox: I just did a consultation for someone on this two days ago. Well, today is Tuesday. Friday, three days ago, whatever it was. Here's the issue. When you have a C-section, you're essentially cutting open the uterus, taking out the baby, taking out the placenta, and sewing it back together. If the uterus healed perfectly, exactly the same as before you cut it open, then fine. You don't have a risk of uterine rupture any more than anyone else in the world who is having a baby. But when you cut things open and sew them back together, we know that the integrity of that tissue is always diminished compared to before. That's true in every part of the body. So when you're laboring, you are contracting and squeezing and all of that stuff, there is a chance that it would open up. Fortunately, we've learned that for people who have this low transverse type of incision, while that is true, the risk of it is pretty low– 1% or less. There are times when it is higher like if you make a different type of incision on them. So the question is are there ways to further quantify this risk or to find who is that 1%? Can we predict who that 1% is or is it just pure luck? So someone came up with an idea that, “All right. If I look at the area of the scar where I made the incision and sewed it together either before pregnancy or during pregnancy and I measure it, I can measure the thickness of the muscle.” You're taking a muscle and sewing it back together. If it's very thick, the implication is that it's stronger whereas if it is very thin, the implication is that it's weaker. I would say that is probably true that the thicker it is, the stronger it is and the thinner it is, the weaker it is, but the question is how do you use that practically? Right? Is there a cutoff where I could say, “Okay, if it's this thickness or greater, the risk of rupture is less than 1% whereas if it's this thickness and thinner, the risk is more than 1%. It's 2%. It's 5%. It's 10%. It's 50%.” The problem is that we've never been able to identify a good cutoff meaning let's say a lot of people use 2 or 3 millimeters. Under that number, it is a higher risk. If it's over that number, it's a lower risk. The problem with that is that there are enough people whose uteruses rupture despite being over 3 millimeters and there are enough people who don't rupture despite being under 3 millimeters that it doesn't seem to be any practical or useful cutoff. Most of the studies that have looked at– for example, there is a study where they said, “All right, I'm going to take 1000 women or whatever the number was who have had a prior C-section, and in half of them, I'm going to measure the thickness and do this exercise where if it's this thick, I will have them VBAC or if it's this thick, I won't have them VBAC. And then the other 500, I'm not going to even measure. I'm not going to look.” If you look at those two groups, neither one did better. It sort of indicates that this exercise of measuring the thickness of the incision doesn't seem to be fruitful. I'm sure there is somebody on Earth who you measure the thickness, you see it's then, you don't have them VBAC, and you save them a bad outcome, but there are also probably a lot of people who you then said couldn't VBAC when they would have a perfectly fine VBAC. So the short answer is that nobody knows. There isn't one standard and that is something that some people use in their practice and some people don't. In our practice, we don't formally measure the thickness and make decisions about it. If we see something that looks remarkably unusual, then we have a discussion about it. It depends on your circumstances, but we don't do that ourselves. There are those that do it. Whether they are helping the world or harming the world, I have no idea. Nobody knows. That's the problem. Now, there's a different situation where you measure the thickness before pregnancy. Meagan: That's what I was just going to ask. Is there a situation where, “Okay. We're done. We're not even pregnant and we measure.” Dr. Fox: That is something that is an emerging field of research. We do that on certain people who have had multiple C-sections. It's not often because I want to know if they should VBAC or not. It's usually if I'm worried about something called a Cesarean scar pregnancy where their pregnancy implants there or if they're at risk of uterine rupture during pregnancy. There are different cutoffs used. You have to have a very specific test called a saline sonohysterogram where we squirt water into your uterus and measure the thickness of the scar. What to do about it, you need surgery to repair that and then what do those people do in pregnancy? This is definitely not standardized and different people do it differently ranging from not doing it at all to doing it very religiously. You still don't know what is the optimal method for this. Again, we don't do this test on everybody who has had a C-section between pregnancies. We do it on certain people, but a lot of it is about planning for the pregnancy more than deciding about VBAC or not is what I would say. Meagan: If they can or cannot. Okay, that is good to know. And then in the same area, we have some people talking about adhesions. We get adhesions after we have C-sections. If we have really dense adhesions and we're having issues, does our risk– and we're seeing this on these ultrasounds– of rupture go up with adhesions? Dr. Fox: Adhesions are generally scar tissue in your belly. That's either between the uterus and other parts of your belly or between layers of your abdominal wall. Number one, we don't think that they have any impact on the risk of rupture. They make a C-section harder on your surgeon but we don't usually see them on ultrasound. That's actually not correct. Meagan: People are saying that they are told that. Dr. Fox: Adhesion just means that two things are stuck together. Meagan: It's just scar tissue, right? Dr. Fox: Yeah. It's hard to tell if two things are stuck together versus just sitting next to each other on ultrasound. If I showed you a picture of my hands together, you would have no way of knowing if they are superglued together or not unless I tried to pull them apart. So it's the same thing. On ultrasound, we rarely– sometimes, you'll see that the uterus is tilted in a really weird way and you know it must be scarred or this or that. That's also prepregnancy. During pregnancy, your uterus grows very, very large and you can't typically tell who is and who is not going to have scar tissue. It does not usually impact VBAC. Also, you rarely have a lot of scar tissue after only one or two C-sections. Usually, it's if you've had three or four or five and we're not doing VBACs on people who have had three, four, or five C-sections and no vaginal births and so it doesn't really come into play practically. Meagan: Okay, yeah. That's good to know because people are being told that in these scar thickness visits that, “Oh, and you have a lot of adhesions so your chance of rupture is increased.” Dr. Fox: Listen, I don't have the skill myself to recognize adhesions on ultrasound. I'm not sure if anyone does. I'm not sure if they're telling people that because maybe– I guess the only way you would know is say someone has had two prior C-sections and they want a VBAC and the person who did their second C-section saw a lot of scar tissue from their first C-section, then they would say, “Listen, I did your second C-section. It's a mess in there. You're not a good candidate for VBAC because if you needed an emergency C-section in labor, it would take a long time to do it.” That is a very reasonable discussion to say, “Listen, part of doing your VBAC is having the capability of doing an emergency C-section if it goes wrong or if something bad happens or there is a concern over that.” If you know in advance, I can't do a C-section easily, then it makes it more difficult. For example, that happened to someone who we know has scar tissue, or let's say someone who had multiple surgeries. Let's say someone had a tummy tuck which has a lot of scar tissue or they have Crohn's disease and they had three other surgeries. Let's say because of the size of the person themselves if they are much larger, then it is harder to do a C-section quickly, then that is a very reasonable concern over VBAC. Listen, if the VBAC goes well, great. But if I have to do a C-section in labor and I have to do it quickly, I can't do it quickly. That's sort of the reason why hospitals don't have VBACs because they're like, “Listen, we don't have an anesthesiologist 24/7. If you need a C-section, I need 30-60 minutes to get a team in place. That may not be safe.” That's one of the reasons why smaller community hospitals don't allow VBACs. It's not because they're mean. It's because they don't have the proper staffing to address an emergency. Now, anybody can have emergency labor, so it's a problem for everyone, but it's more common that if you have a prior C-section, then you may have to do something emergently. Meagan: Okay, and one of the last and most famous ultrasounds in our community is the third-trimester ultrasound to check baby's size. In our community, we have a lot of people doubting their body's ability to give birth because they are told that their babies are too large or their pelvis is too small. La dee dah, we could go on for a long time about that, or that their fluid is too low. We're getting these third-trimester ultrasounds. One, the question is, is it absolutely necessary? Can someone turn it down? Is it a bad idea to turn it down? And two, if they're told, “You're baby is too large. Your fluid is too low,” is it possible to increase their fluid somehow? Is it really possible to know exactly how big that baby is? Dr: Fox: To answer that question fully, we need more than the 5 minutes that we have left. I can come back, but the short answer is whether it's a good idea or not to have that ultrasound is debatable. In our practice, we do it but we have a higher-risk population typically. And I am pretty confident that we interpret the results appropriately. The issue isn't so much the ultrasound. It's the interpretation of it. Low fluid is a legitimate concern and that's a concern for the health of the baby because low fluid could indicate a non-functioning placenta or as we said earlier, that your placenta is crapping out. That could be a sign of that. That's real. That's legit. If the baby is measuring too small, most of them are fine, but the concern is maybe it means that your placenta is crapping out. The baby being too big, there are two issues with that. One is that, especially with big babies, they are less accurate. With smaller babies, we tend to be more accurate. Bigger babies, we tend to be more inaccurate. We may be right that the baby is big, but how big, we're not that precise. And what to do about that. Like you said, most people having a baby can deliver a big baby and everyone's going to be fine. But yes, there are risks that go up as the baby gets bigger. There is a risk of injury to the baby. There is a risk of injury to the mother and there is a risk of uterine rupture because a) the baby is bigger and b) the labor is likely going to be longer and more difficult which increases the risk. Now, whether that should be used as a criterion to prohibit VBAC, again, is debatable. There isn't a perfect answer to this. I would be less comfortable managing a VBAC if the estimated weight of the baby is 10 pounds over 8 pounds. Do I have to be so uncomfortable that I wouldn't allow it? It depends on the circumstances, obviously. It is a legitimate concern that the baby is measuring big, but again, how confident are we? Those are difficult details. Our ability to assess the size of the pelvis is even worse because the pelvis changes in labor. It's part of our assessment, but we have the humility to know that we are frequently wrong about that. It's tough. Listen, if someone had a prior C-section and their story is, “I pushed for 4 hours and this 6-pound baby didn't come out and they did a C-section,” then in the next pregnancy, I'm estimating a 10-pound baby and the pelvis does not feel so great and the baby is very high, I'm certainly a lot less gungho about it than if they said the opposite. “I pushed for 4 hours for a 10-pound baby,” in the next pregnancy, the pelvis feels really roomy and great and the baby is measuring 6 pounds. That's legitimate. I could be wrong, but that's information that might be helpful to me. But again, this has to be individualized. There isn't a perfect answer to this. I wish we could be more scientific. People have tried a lot of different things. There used to be routine X-rays and to see the size of the pelvis and the size of the baby's head. It didn't help. The baby's head changes shape in labor and the pelvis changes shape in labor so we are not precise with this, unfortunately. Meagan: No, I love that you said it's all unique. We're all individuals. We're all different and even from one baby to another, we need to remember that it's always different. Dr. Fox: Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: Well, I know that we could dive into so much more. There are so many topics, but I really wanted to just thank you so much for taking the time today. I know you've got quite the schedule and spent this hour with us answering these questions. Dr. Fox: My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. Thanks for doing what you're doing. I think it's great and hopefully, we can continue getting people better information and making good choices. Meagan: Yes. We will make sure to link everything to your podcast and your website so people can read more about you. In New York, people can find you. Sometimes, it can be that VBAC people are looking for doctors all of the time. Dr. Fox: If you are in New York City, at our practice, we do VBACs so come on over. If we don't think it's a good idea, we'll tell you but if it's a good idea, we're on board. Meagan: And you do VBAC after two C-sections, you said? Dr. Fox: We do. It depends on the exact circumstances, but we don't prohibit it because of two C-sections. Obviously, there are some people in that category who think it is a better idea than others, but it's not a hard rule or anything like that. Meagan: Okay, good to know. Okay, well thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Dr. Fox: You too. Thank you very much, I appreciate it.Meagan: Okay, bye. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Abby Inman is a pelvic floor therapist, a soon-to-be mother of four, and one of the authors of the book Baby Got VBAC: An Inspiring Collection of Wisdom for Better Births After Cesarean. Located in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Abby is advocating for hospital policies to make pelvic floor therapy more accessible to all birthing women. As a VBAC mom herself, Abby talks with Meagan about why every woman should have a pelvic floor physical therapy consult in the hospital before going home. Abby also tells us some obvious as well as more commonly missed signs indicating that you could benefit from pelvic floor physical therapy. Additional LinksBaby Got VBAC: An Inspiring Collection of Wisdom for Better Births After CesareanAbby's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello, hello you guys. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link. I apologize that I sound a little hoarse today. I have totally caught a darn bug. I have been trying to get away from it all year not getting sick and apparently, I couldn't get away with it. So here I am. I sound kind of froggy today but that's okay. We're still going to carry on. You guys, we have our friend, Abby, with us today and I'm really, really excited because I was just telling her before we started recording, she is just a big ball of everything. She's got a lot of amazing things to talk about and share so it is such an honor, Abby, to have you on our podcast. Abby: I am so excited to be here. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. I just want to talk a little bit even before we jump into the review. I don't want to talk too much about your story because I want to give you all of the time but have you guys heard, Baby Got VBAC? Have you guys heard of that book? If you haven't, go check our highlights or on our blog because we have it on there and it is such an incredible, uplifting book. And guess what, Abby? I don't know if you know this. I don't know if you were actually the one that contacted us, but forever ago, someone contacted Julie and me about being in this. We had so much going on. We were in our course and we were like, “We can't take anything more on,” and we declined the opportunity and now we are kicking ourselves in the pants. We're like, “Dang it. We should have been in this incredible book.” It has so many incredible people and stories and information in it. I mean, it's amazing, right? Do you want to tell us a little bit about it?Abby: Yes. Baby Got VBAC. I don't exactly know what is the subheader. It's like, “A Collection of Wisdom for Better Birth After Cesarean.” Meagan: Yeah. “An Inspiring Collection of Wisdom for Better Birth After a Cesarean.” Abby: And it was the brainchild of a VBAC mom herself who is also a writer and an independent publisher, so she just got us all together, found us likely through various social media channels as things are done these days–Meagan: Yes, yes. Abby: And yeah. It's a combination of VBAC stories from all different kinds of people as well as some awesome chapters done by various birth professionals so some birth educators, some doulas, some chiropractors, PTs–Meagan: Brittany is in it and we love it. I've taken her course. She's on our podcast. She's in it. Brittany Sharpe, yeah. Abby: Her chapter is awesome. So even though the stories are all VBAC stories, I mean really, a VBAC is the first time going through the whole process and having a successful vaginal birth so I also think it's a great resource for first-time parents who haven't necessarily had a Cesarean in their past as well. Of course, it's awesome for if you're preparing for a VBAC. Meagan: Yeah. I love that you touch on that. We talk about this on the podcast. This is a VBAC-specific podcast. We discuss vaginal birth after Cesarean, but all of us on this podcast– I'm telling you, except for maybe the providers are people who haven't had a Cesarean, but all of us were in that spot of preparing and had these Cesareans. It is a way to learn how to avoid a Cesarean, your options for birth, your options for location, and all of that. So yes, it is VBAC-specific, but just like this book, it is for all parents that are expecting and working and wanting to learn and grow their education. I love this book. It's amazing and it's so fun to have you today on the podcast. Review of the WeekMeagan: Before we jump in, we have a Review of the Week so I want to hurry and review this and then I will introduce you. Abby: Sounds good. Meagan: Okay, guys. This actually came in 12 days ago via email and this is from our friend, Jessica. She says, “Hello, VBAC Link. I wanted to write about my appreciation of The VBAC Link Podcast. I had a C-section in September 2020 due to an arrest of descent. It definitely affected my postpartum mental health. When I found out about being pregnant in July 2022, I Googled VBAC resources and found your podcast. I signed up for your emails, read your blogs, your Instagram, Facebook page stories, and listened to your podcast on my morning jogs and walks. I cried. I smiled. I empathized with the moms telling their stories and more importantly, learned so much. I followed many of the tips from you and the moms. “On 3/14,” which was not that long ago from the day that I am reading this today, “I was on my morning walk listening to the last VBAC Link episode and switched to my birth music playlist. Five minutes later, I started having contractions. After getting home and calling my doula, my husband took me to the hospital and I was able to achieve my VBAC and had a baby girl. Thank you for setting up this resource. I will continue to listen to the stories even though I don't plan on having more children. I love the stories, the information, and all of the passion for helping women like me. Thank you, Jess.” Oh my gosh. Jessica, congratulations on your VBAC, and a little part of me is so happy that we got to be a part of your birthing day. That is so awesome that you were listening to these amazing stories and went into labor. So congratulations, Jessica, and yes. Just like Jessica, you guys can too. You can VBAC too. Just like she said, we have blogs, Instagram, and Facebook. We even have a private Facebook group so if you are looking for a special space that is protected and filled with people just like you wanting to learn more about your options for birth after Cesarean, head over to Facebook and search “The VBAC Link Community,” answer the questions, and then we will get you in so you can start learning. Abby Inman, PT, DPTMeagan: Okay, Ms. Abby. Abby: That was awesome. Meagan: I know. Wasn't that so awesome? That was such an awesome review. I got it and I just left it in the inbox unread because I'm like, “That's going on next week's podcast.” It was so amazing. I was like, “Oh my gosh.” And we love reviews. We love the reviews so I always encourage people. Maybe you don't want to drop it on the podcast app. That's fine. You can send it in an email, but we would always love a great review so that we can read it on the podcast because it makes me smile so much. So much. I remember when Julie and I were together, we would get a review and we would just be texting. Our cheeks would hurt. They would hurt because we were like, “This is what we are wanting to do. We are wanting to inspire and motivate people to find their options,” because so many people around the world feel that their options are taken away or that they are robbed of them and that is not how we ever want anyone to feel. I do feel that through this podcast, you get to learn your options and you get to take back that power that maybe once was lost. Abby: Mhmm. Meagan: So oh my gosh. Well, Abby. You guys, I tell ya. She is just a ball of it all. She is involved in pregnancy and postpartum and pelvic health, writes in a book, and teaches classes. She works in the hospital system. Abby, you're just amazing. I'm going to turn the time over to you. You're in Milwaukee, is that right? Wisconsin? Abby: I am. Meagan: Tell us it all. Share your story. I would love to know more about working in the hospital system and teaching birthing classes and stuff like that as well. You guys, she does this all while having little kiddos and is expecting. So seriously, good on ya girl. You're killing it. Abby: Yeah. I like to describe my life as beautiful chaos. Meagan: I love that. Yes! Can I just take that with me and be like, “Yes. Beautiful chaos. That is what I live.” Abby: So yeah. I am a physical therapist. I specialize in pelvic health. I've been doing that for almost 8 years. Crazy how time goes by. Nobody at the time that I was going to PT school goes into PT school thinking they want to do the pelvic floor. People definitely do because it's becoming more common which has been such an awesome progression in the 8 years that I've been doing this. But I was lucky in that I was able to do an internship in pelvic health before I graduated which again at the time was super rare. I've been treating, again, in pelvic health my entire career. Really now though, my specialty or even my niche is pregnancy, birth, and postpartum just because that's the season of life that I'm in and just where my passion is drawn and where there is such a need. I could for sure argue that there's a need for all pelvic health, but this field is growing so there are a lot of other people doing all pelvic health and there are not quite as many people focused pretty fully on pregnancy and postpartum and just that specific time. Meagan: Yeah. I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and you know how we have a six-week gap like, “Oh, you have your baby. Okay, see you in six weeks! Hope you're doing okay.” The two things that I wish that we could fill the gap with are mental health and pelvic PT. Abby: Yeah. Meagan: Right? There's such a gap that needs to be filled so it's so good to hear that there's a little bit more and that it's starting to come around where people are focusing a little bit more on pregnancy and postpartum. Abby: Yeah. I have a lot of theories about different things related to how we get here but I just think that there is still this saying, “It takes a village,” but a lot of people really don't have the village–Meagan: I know. Abby: I think that's what has created the gap. You used to have your other female relatives around who would make you dinner and help you with your baby. Obviously, we just have to live in the reality and that's why people need help and need services because that's just not the norm anymore. Meagan: It's not and we're expected to just bounce back like, “Oh, you had a baby. Okay, great. Keep going as fast as you can.” That's how it feels. We just had a mom hire us for 80 hours of postpartum and I was like, “Wow. That's amazing that you are focusing so much on your postpartum.” She's like, “I want continuous for 80 hours,” and we're like, “Great,” so we made this work because her mom is from Korea. She was like, “People don't leave their bedroom. They don't leave their bedroom. They are with their baby and just like you said cleaning the house and making food,” but here we are. So many of our birth stories, our couples, and our parents, literally have to go back 3 weeks later to normal life or work. Abby: I know. It's crazy. That's not normal. It's not how it was meant to be. Yeah. I work at a hospital-based clinic part-time and one of my projects is just now really coming to fruition. We're still in the pilot phase but we're already seeing really great results and an increase in referrals and again, these are people we would have otherwise not seen. The program is for a PT to see moms in the hospital before they go home, not necessarily as a rule, not as, “You can't go home until you see the PT,” but just as a support service. We started it to be a standard or trigger a referral for anyone who has had a Cesarean and anyone who has had a third or fourth-degree perineal tear. I mean, obviously, this is The VBAC Link so we talk a lot about the birth after the Cesarean, but a Cesarean is a major abdominal surgery. Some people, of course, are expecting it and have been through it before and that obviously makes it easier a little bit because you know what is going to happen, but there's just about no other surgical example that you can compare to the care of a Cesarean. It's possible that you could have an appendectomy and see a PT in the hospital before you go home. Such a benign procedure is often done laparoscopically now. There is just nothing that compares to the gap in care after a Cesarean. It's literally like, “Oh, we just cut open several layers of your body.” Again, whether you were expecting it or not, you're also just recovering from being pregnant or if you labored at all and then having this major surgery. Oh, and you're going to stay here for two days or three days, but now you have to take care of this other human. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. But don't forget to take care of yourself. Abby: But also, here's no direction about how to do that. Meagan: Exactly, yeah. Abby: That's slightly not fair because I don't mean to imply that postpartum nurses–Meagan: They send you with nothing. Abby: Yeah, that they're not doing their job or taking good care of you. It's actually that I'm making the argument that it's why there is room for this kind of program because PTs are movement and rehab and recovery experts. That is what we do. That's what we are trained in. All PTs graduating now are doctors in physical therapy. I have a doctorate. Just like your dentist is a doctor, I am a doctor. Like I said, it's really an expertise in this area of care and that's why we're just the most well-equipped to do that. You don't have to actually even be a pregnant or postpartum or even really pelvic health trained PT to do this work. You could be a hospital-based acute care or inpatient therapist it's sometimes called because you really teach people the same sort of things that you would teach your other patients in the hospital like early things about scar tissue healing and scar tissue work. Meagan: Scar tissue massage. Abby: How to lay flat in bed because guess what? You're going to have to lay flat in bed when you go home but sometimes they don't even do that. Meagan: And then how to get up. Abby: That's right. For sure how to get up, how to hold your baby when you walk, if you're having pain, how to go upstairs. Again, if that's painful, what to do? Just really practical things that people are going to have to do after they are discharged from the hospital and go home. I just think it is invaluable. Obviously too then part of our program is to at least get the scheduled for outpatient pelvic PT as well to make that transition really seamless. So yeah, it's been really cool. So far, it's going well. Meagan: That's awesome. So awesome. I hope that all around the world, a program like this can be implemented as a standard, just as a standard thing because like you said, it's invaluable. I also want to say that my nurse and my doc sent me home with a paper that was like, “Keep your wound this. Keep your wound that,” with wound care and instructions like, “Don't lift more than 10 pounds,” and stuff like that. That is so wonderful but no one told me about the things I was going to feel or even encouraged walking. Abby: Or breathing. How to breathe.Meagan: Or breathing. It wasn't encouraged. Yeah, get up and go to the bathroom, but it wasn't like, “Get up and move as much as you can within a certain range and that's going to help recovery and breathing and scar massage.” Never. Not once in either of my C-sections did anyone ever talk about the adhesions that could happen and the scar mobilization and things like that. That is where it lacks. We just lack so much so I would love to see programs like this happening all over the world. So if you are listening and you are in the medical world, this is something that you could try because it is so important. Abby: I'll send you some articles that are being published about it. There is just a handful of PTs who are really pioneering this work and again, trying to get stuff published because obviously, that's how it works in this medical world, so yeah. Just to have some scientific journal articles. Meagan: Yeah. We'll drop them in the show notes too. Awesome. So yeah. You've got the PT. You're influencing this amazing program. You've had a VBAC. In the book, you talk about– and this is not word for word what you are saying– recognizing your birthing plan and then also recognizing your birthing location and making sure that they match because if you are wanting certain things and then you choose– say you want an epidural. You're not going to have a home birth. You're not going to have a birth center birth. Maybe you're like, “I absolutely do not want to be induced with Pitocin. I don't want it to be discussed,” then a hospital birth may not be your best option. I want to also say that sometimes it is possible to avoid that, but it doesn't always go super easy. It's often times where you have to fight about it. So yeah. I would love to know if there are any highlights of your birth story or talking about birthing location and how it impacted your– remind me, you were induced with your first for, was it IUGR or was it preeclampsia?Abby: Yeah, I think it was a pretty common story. I was trained in pregnancy, pelvic floor, and postpartum before the first time I got pregnant. I had taken some coursework about all of this stuff so I don't want to say that I was cocky at birth, but I felt like I knew more than the average person. Meagan: Confident. You were confident. Abby: But as we know, birth is a very humbling experience. My first daughter was, I think I went to my 38-week appointment and I had been measuring fine. Her 20-week ultrasound was fine. I don't think I had another one since then, but it was 38 weeks. My OB did the portable ultrasound to see if she was vertex. I don't even know. I really should probably ask her. She probably doesn't even remember at this point because my daughter is about to be five. She saw something that she didn't like. Her suspicion was that maybe the amniotic fluid was low or something. So she wanted me to have a real ultrasound which I ended up doing. All of those things came back fine. The blood flow was fine. My fluid levels were fine, but of course, they measured her as well in the full ultrasound and they said that she is very small and we don't know why. That was their reason for wanting to induce me. Again, being the stubborn person I am, I was scheduled to give a presentation at the Wisconsin State PT conference later that week. I was like, “Well, I'm not staying to be induced because I have a presentation to give in four days so I'll do that and then we'll talk. I'm not having a baby before then.” I'm sure my team already didn't like that so I gave my talk on Friday and then we went for the non-stress test on Saturday afternoon and that's when they told me, “Yeah. You should stay and be induced.”I was really not super early or anything.Meagan: Two weeks?Abby: Yeah. That was a Saturday, so she would have been 39 weeks on Monday, I think. But really, I mean, my induction story is just that my body was not ready. I mean, I tried to do everything I could to make it slow. It just, like I said, that's just really what it comes down to. My body really just was not ready. I did not progress. I was doing all of the things that I know how to do and teach people how to do, but at that time, because I hadn't gone into labor myself, she just was nestled in there. I obviously have some qualms about the saying that you hear a lot, “Well, at least you have a healthy baby and at least the mom is healthy.” That should be the low bar. That's the minimum. That's not the goal. Meagan: I have feelings toward that comment too. I want to be honest. I kind of want to punch people when they say that because I'm like, “Yeah, duh. Duh.” Yeah. Abby: Yeah. The birth itself again, was not necessarily traumatic in that I did actually choose. They were like, “Okay. I guess you could keep going. I'll let you do this for however many more hours, but we're not getting anywhere.” I was tired and just was like, “Okay. I'm just ready to meet her. Let's have the Cesarean.”Meagan: Let's do this. Abby: It wasn't like she was in distress and they rushed me to the OR, so it was not an emergency in that sense, but again, just like this is going to happen whether it's right now or in a few hours and then it probably would have been more of an emergency things just because of the timeline of how that goes. I would say that my trauma from the birth was more just mental and emotional. Yeah. Really from there, I knew I wanted to basically get pregnant again relatively soon. I knew as we were starting to grow our family, we were going to do that by several children if we could. I knew I was not going to elect to have a repeat Cesarean. So basically, my mindset was, “Well, I have to be somewhere where that's essentially not an option unless it is absolutely necessary.”Meagan: It's an emergency, yeah. Abby: I made the choice then when I got pregnant again. My two older ones are almost 18 months apart to the day, so also about as close as you're supposed to have babies after a Cesarean. I chose to have my care with midwives at a birth center in town which is not an option for everyone because sometimes it doesn't exist. Meagan: I know. Yes. We've got states right now taking midwives away from the hospital even. Abby: Oh, totally. That's all kinds of crazy. I'll get on that fight. Actually, so now I'm pregnant again. We are expecting our fourth in July and that's why I'm still with the midwives at the same birth center and preparing for my third VBAC. Even though I've now had two successful vaginal deliveries, I'm always considered a VBAC patient which is just crazy. Meagan: We're always going to be a VBAC, yep.Abby: I mean, it's not crazy. Obviously, it's a definition but it's crazy that there is risk associated with it. Meagan: It's hard to think that it's still considered, yes. Abby: So that risk, I don't know. I mean, I'm assuming that this is just the insurance that my midwives use but their insurance company charges them $1500 just for accepting a VBAC client. Meagan: Are you serious?Abby: Right? It's completely insane. That's new. That wasn't true for my last two. It's new for this one. So that's crazy. Like I said, it's a definition but it's always going to be with me no matter how many children I have. I just think that's one of the things that's sort of a part of informed consent, too. You just don't realize how that's going to affect you. You know? Anyway, not that again, I would have chosen differently in the moment but things that you don't think about and don't realize are going to affect your childbearing experience for then the rest of that time. Meagan: Yes. And on the other end, could potentially affect a provider's ability or choice to accept, right? These midwives could say, “$1500 a person, we're not going to do this because we don't want to up our prices,” or whatever. “We can't take the risk that the insurance is putting on us.” Not that they're scared of the risk of birthing out of the hospital with a VBAC, but that could change. That could impact things so much as well. Abby: Very much. Meagan: Yeah. Abby: Yeah. Meagan: Interesting. It makes me sad. Abby: Yeah. When my kids are maybe a little older or just after I have this one and can think about things, after that, that's my next thing. I need to get embroiled in the legal battles of this then I can be like, “This is totally ridiculous.”Meagan: That is what I want to do. I always say that I have a bucket list of if I have all of the time in the world type thing. I have this bucket list and there are so many things surrounding it. It's birth. It's where I'm at in birth. I'm even done having kids, but as a doula and stuff, I'm seeing this. I'm listening to these podcast stories and I'm like, “We need to make a change.” I'd love to start facilitating more change in policies and things like that. One day when I have all of the time in the world, we'll get there together. Abby: We'll get together again. Mhmm. Meagan: Yes. We'll get together again and start to make some changes. I mean, we are moving in a forward progress. There is change happening. Abby: We are. Meagan: Okay. I'm going to bounce really quickly back to some PT. I would love to know any tips that you would like to share with your listeners. You mentioned, “Yes. We're The VBAC Link so we're talking about birth after Cesarean,” but what kind of PT things can we do prior to? Because I know for me I didn't even think. It didn't even cross my mind that I should consider a pelvic floor PT before giving birth and then of course, after having my Cesarean, again, I told you that there was nobody to tell me anything about anything and then here I go, and have another Cesarean and then even with that, nobody. So I had two Cesareans without knowing anything. Any tips for previous and/or after that you can give anybody?Abby: Yeah, so really in my ideal world, every person sees a PT in her first pregnancy and the reason for that is because your body, of course, just has to make these natural changes in your posture. Your various muscle groups have to change to accommodate the growth of the baby. That changes your center of gravity and center of motion which affects how you move and aspects of movement. Again, like I said before, PTs like me are the experts in movement. Again, it's not to imply that somebody currently is not doing their job, but nobody else is looking at that. So right now, I would say that providers are generally pretty good about offering a PT referral, and again, with things like social media, people are advocating for themselves better as well. But they're pretty good about putting something in if a patient raises an issue. “Oh, I'm having this back pain” or “I'm having pubic symphysis pain and I'm having hip pain. I'm having bladder leakage,” or whatever. XYZ things.Again, yes. If you are experiencing some symptom in your pregnancy like that that you think would be muscle or posture related, you should see a PT. But like I said before, I really think that everyone deserves that consultation because again, the natural changes that are happening are natural and we're not going to stop them, but I can teach you strategies to mitigate the effects of that. How do you consciously move your abdominal muscles and the connection between your diaphragm and your deep abdominal muscles and your pelvic floor and your glutes? How are you sitting at your desk or how are you standing? Starting those things when you're pregnant then carries over to how you move postpartum. Obviously, postpartum is a lot. It's hard for a lot of reasons, but to also have pain or these other symptoms, any bladder or bowel/pelvic pressure sort of symptoms is just going to make it harder. Again, I really think by learning about these things consciously and applying specific strategies even if you're the pregnant person who is exercising and running right up until the day she gives birth, that's obviously wonderful and I support you. Maybe it's just this one-time consultation sometime around, I usually say around the beginning of the third trimester is a good time to do it. You meet the PT. We talk about these strategies and things to implement for the rest of the pregnancy, and then now you've met that person and have a relationship with them, so you at least have a resource then postpartum to then be like, “Oh, Abby mentioned this could happen and guess what? It's happening. Now I know that I'm just going to call her and get on her schedule,” instead of Dr. Google in the middle of the night when you're nursing and all of this XYZ stuff comes up. Meagan: A lot of the time, it says that it's normal. It's normal to have these things. It's like, “Oh, well duh. It's normal. Yeah. You just had a baby. Yeah, it's normal.” But it's like, “No. No, no, no.” Too, I want to mention that sometimes athletes have these tighter pelvic floors and we need to actually learn how to calm and release for effective pushing so that we won't have more damage. So one of the big things that I think is really good, even if it's just once, is coming in and learning about your pelvic floor. Your actually pelvic floor, not just the pelvic floor in general. Your pelvic floor and learn where you're at. Do some practice pushes and learn some breathing techniques and learn what's normal. Learn what's not so you're not on Google thinking that your uterus is falling out. Do you know what I mean? It can go that extreme where you're like, “I'm having this.” You Google it and it's pure panic which is not going to help anything. It's not going to help recovery. It's not going to help our mental health. It's not going to help breastfeeding if you're breastfeeding because we're stressed. It's crazy how there's a cycle. It's a domino effect, so yeah. I think it's so, so, so important as well. I wish I would have known that. I wish I would have known that.I did that with my son, with my VBAC babe, and yeah. There was a lot to learn. Abby: Yeah. You know, I mean while I'm so grateful when I get clients that are done having children and they're like, “I'm finally prioritizing me. I've been having these symptoms since I was pregnant or since the birth of my first,” or whatever. I'm like, “Yes. Good for you. I'm so glad that you're here.” But it also just breaks my heart because I really think that maybe the symptoms are not entirely preventable. The dysfunction is not entirely preventable, but potentially it could have been less. Or again, now these women have lived “x” number of years– 1, 3, 5, 15, 20 years–Meagan: I know. Abby: Like I said, I really think that early intervention is key. Again, the changes happen in your first pregnancy. Even if you don't necessarily have symptoms in your first postpartum period. Meagan: Yes. Yes. That's the thing. Is it possible to not have any symptoms but to have some pelvic dysfunction or pelvic issues or scarring? Especially with C-sections, I have a friend who was like, “I have never had a diastasis recti. I've never had pelvic floor issues. I've never had adhesions. I don't have adhesions.” She's had multiple Cesareans and is like, “I do not have adhesions.” I'm like, “Yeah. Yeah, you probably do.” But you know, she says she has no symptoms. Then sometimes I wonder, “Do you know what symptoms to look for?”Abby: Right. Are you just living with things?Meagan: Yes. Yes. Abby: Right. Obviously, yes. That can definitely be true. The symptoms don't have to be so severe that they are really affecting your day-to-day life or quality of life. Of course, usually, people seek care when they're so fed up with it. But there can be sneaky symptoms or again, things that people view as not that bad, I would consider as not normal. Meagan: It's just our new normal because we had a baby and we're being told that. Abby: Knowing where every bathroom is in the stores that you go to is actually not normal. That fact that you have a map of where the bathrooms are in your brain– now again, the same argument could be made for people that are potty training their children. But okay, they're learning for the first time. Meagan: Or the second you walk into a store, the first thing you say is, “Where's the bathroom?”Abby: Right. “Where's the bathroom? I've got to go to the bathroom.” That's a symptom. Again, it doesn't have to be that way. You can change that. This was certainly true for me and I did lots of scar work and stuff, but I basically could not wear normal pants or jeans– definitely not jeans– until I was postpartum with my second, and that had been all stretched out again and everything was slightly less sensitive. That's a modification that I made and that lots of people make. That becomes your new normal that you sort of forget about, but it's like, “Oh, well I would just never wear jeans.” Well, that's not normal. Meagan: Why? Is it because you didn't want to or is it because you didn't feel like you could or you weren't comfortable? What types of signs? Just for our listeners because we're in this spot of, “Do I have anything?”. What kinds of signs or symptoms would be a sure sign? If you are finding the restroom the second you walk into a store, this is a sign. Yes, 100%. Maybe we'll go from an extreme guarantee that this is a sign to more of the subtle, hidden, could this be a sign? Abby: Sure. Meagan: Yeah. What symptoms and signs would you say for people listening? Abby: So anything obvious would be any sort of daily pain. Just pain every day anywhere. Related to pregnancy and postpartum, hip pain, low back pain, people will say SI pain which is your sacroiliac joint which is the back lower down in your butt, pubic symphysis pain, and tailbone pain. If you feel like you cannot sit on any surface for any given period of time and it's because your but is hurting, again, not normal. Meagan: Yeah, or even pressure. I remember after I had my baby I would be standing up and I would want to sit. This is so weird, I know. But I would want to sit on the corner of something right at the vaginal opening to support it or feel my hand like, “Oh, I just look like a little girl that needs to go pee but I'm just pushing,” because I'd have this pressure after more than 30 minutes or standing after more than 30 minutes. Or sometimes even just going to the restroom, I'd be like, “Oh, I have some pressure down there.” Abby: To support it. So that's a common symptom of the medical diagnosis we call pelvic organ prolapse so if you Google that, it can seem like, “Oh my gosh, things are falling out of me.” But again, that's not necessarily abnormal especially in postpartum because all of those organs were shifted while you were pregnant so some of it is the settling back into place. Some of it is that your ligaments are still relaxed from again, what your body does in order for us to have babies. Some of that for sure continues postpartum especially if a person is breastfeeding, that laxity. But yeah, it's like learning strategies about how to help that. So certainly, yeah. Pressure, heaviness, any obvious bladder and bowel stuff. If you for sure had to go change your underwear and pants after you sneezed, again, not normal. Meagan: Not normal, yes. Abby: If you're a year postpartum or six months, a year, 18 months, 2 years, 5 years, whatever and you are one of those people that's like, “Oh, I can't go jump on the trampoline with my kids. I can't run. I had to stop running.” Again, that's not normal. We can help you. Meagan: Yeah. What about even the inability to hold your core? Abby: Uh-huh. Meagan: It's like a big plumb line. It's all connected. If we had this ability to maybe hold a plank or run or ride a bike and we were able to hold our core in and not feel it release and start taking pressure in our back, but now all of a sudden we've had this baby and we're a year, two years, even three years or more down the line and we're like, “Jeez.” Abby: Why do I still look pregnant? Where are my abs? Meagan: Why do I still look pregnant? Where are my abs? Why can't I hold a plank for 60 seconds anymore when I could hold it for three minutes? Would you say that's connected to your pelvic floor? I feel like I know the answer. Abby: Yes. You mentioned diastasis. It doesn't matter how you say it. Meagan: I know. Everyone says it differently. Abby: That's the condition you're describing which again, almost everyone has a little bit of that the last several weeks of pregnancy because it's related to the baby growing. But it's a pressure management problem and tissue laxity, muscle coordination problem postpartum. Meagan: I recently was reviewing my op reports over some things and so talking about Cesarean, we don't think pelvic floor naturally because we didn't have a baby come out of our vaginal canal. We don't think that. We don't think about abs as much either. I think a lot of the time, even though we were cut down low, I feel like our minds are like, “I wasn't pushing and using my abs in my Cesarean,” but listen and sorry as a disclaimer, it's a little blunt. It's a little aggressive. Abby: It's okay. I mean, all of the pelvic floor therapy is TMI. Meagan: Yes. Abby: It's a no-judgment zone and no topics are off-limits. Sometimes you've just got to put it out there. Meagan: Yes. I don't want anyone to feel triggered by the words that I'm using because the words that I'm using are directly from my op reports, but this is how they describe my first C-section. It says, “The fascia opened in the middle and extended laterally with mayo scissors. Fascia was separated from the rectus muscles superior and inferior with sharp and blunt dissection. Rectus muscles were entered sharply and opened and then extended bluntly.” Abby: Yep. Meagan: And then a low incision was made above the bladder. That's where they go on. But I read I was dissected bluntly with sharp scissors. Abby: Yep. Meagan: Right? My abdominal muscles were literally stabbed and cut through. As I've been reading this, this was my first C-section and she's 11. 9 years ago tomorrow as of this recording is the anniversary of my second Cesarean, the birthday of my second Cesarean daughter. 11 and 9 years later and I have abdominal issues and I have pelvic floor issues and I'm working on things. I have pain with intercourse sometimes that I would have never related to my pelvic floor, right? And sometimes I read this and I'm like, “Well, no flipping way. No wonder I have a diastasis recti way above my belly button because I was manually cut with sharp scissors.” Listeners, I want you to know that if you've had a Cesarean and you're not having any pain, that's wonderful but that doesn't mean your body hasn't received trauma like this. It means it has if you've had a Cesarean. You may benefit from pelvic floor PT more than you ever know. And if you haven't learned about scar mobilization and things like that, it's time. It's time to learn about it. So yeah. Any other symptoms? I know we're cutting short on time, but any other symptoms that you would say to listeners, “If you're experiencing this, go check out your local PT”?Abby: Your C-section scar can cause shoulder pain because of that word you used “fascia”. Fascia means connective tissue. It's basically the thing that connects the whole body. Any good pelvic floor therapist is going to look at your whole body. They're going to look at you from head to toe. People typically, you mentioned pelvic floor tightness can have dropped. Feet issues, so plantar fascia issues. Your pelvis is in the middle of all of these areas. It's a highway interchange for things to happen. So again, yeah. You might have a collection of weird symptoms that you maybe didn't put together as related to pregnancy and birth and postpartum. Maybe you're even seeing another PT and you've made some progress, but there's still whatever sort of issue. You know, it might be worth it just to have a consult and have that area checked out. Or to just be looked at from that perspective. Meagan: Absolutely. Such good information. Always, women of strength, remember that you never have to deal. You never have to deal with this. You can take care of yourself and I encourage you to do things for you. Like Abby was saying, she's like, “Yay! You're finally coming in. You're finally taking care of yourself.” But dang it, it's taken so long. I am guilty of that in so many areas. Abby: Yeah. Again, that's not your fault though. Meagan: Nope, nope. Abby: Like I said, it's a problem with our healthcare system. Meagan: And not being informed. Abby: And not even the individual provider's fault. That's why I'm working so diligently and passionately to make it more of a standard because I think that everybody deserves this care. Just because you were pregnant, it doesn't even matter how your birth went. How it went will mean different things, will do different things, and address different things. Some of it will be similar because the common denominator was that you were pregnant. You grew a baby in your body. Meagan: Yep. Your body changed. Your body made amazing changes and did amazing things. It is okay to give back to yourself and thank yourself. Thank your body for doing this amazing thing multiple times for a lot of people. It's so important. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much for sharing these tips and a little bit about your story and choosing a birth location and all of the things. Abby: I didn't really even get to my VBAC story but you can read it in the book. Just pick up a copy of the VBAC book. Meagan: A copy of Baby Got VBAC right here. You can find it in our show notes today. You can find it on our blog. You can find it on our Instagram highlights. You can Google it. We've got it right here. Baby Got VBAC. It's an amazing one. So thank you so much and good luck for this next amazing journey, your third VBAC. And yes, thank you again. Abby: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I could talk about this all day long. Meagan: Right? We could talk for hours and hours about this. We'll just have to have you on again after you have your VBAC and we'll just share about each VBAC. Abby: Sure. Yeah, that would be great. That would be great. Meagan: Okay. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands