Podcast appearances and mentions of zach right

Show Notes 00:00 Introduction 00:22 Medicare part A 06:39 Medicare part B 15:35 Medicare part D Links Referenced: medicare.gov: https://medicare.gov Zach's email: mailto:zach@getsbi.com Nick's email: mailto:nick@getsbi.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/seniorbenefitinc Webpage: https://seniors-livinghealthy.com/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Welcome to our fireside chat with Seniors Living Healthy, the podcast that helps prepare and educate you as you enter and live out your golden years. With over 10 years of experience, Nick and Zach are experts in the senior market and are here to help you live a healthy, full life. And now fireside with your hosts, Nick Keene, and Zach Haire.Nick: Hello, and welcome to season two of Seniors Living Healthy, episode one. I'm Nick. And I have Zach, our co-host with us.Zach: Hey, folks.Nick: And for episode one of season two, we want to cover parts A, B, and D of Medicare, and the changes for 2022. So Zach, let's jump right in.Zach: Sounds good. So, kind of start off there from the top, Part A, just like in the alphabet, starting out with the first letter there, you know, that is our hospitalization, sir. You know, Nick, what are some common things that Part A covers?Nick: Yeah, so Part A kicks in when individuals are admitted to the hospital. It's worth mentioning, Zach, that they're admitted because we are seeing more commonly that people are being put in the hospital under observation. And that is actually covered under Part B. So, very simply, anytime someone is admitted to the hospital, not under observation, Part A kicks in.Zach: Got you. So, let's say, you know, I'm getting ready to turn 65 in a few months. I'm still working things like that, how do I get Part A? What do I have to do to qualify for it?Nick: Great question, Zach. We do get this question quite frequently. So, the most common way to qualify for Medicare is those individuals that have worked 40 quarters or ten years and paid into Medicare via payroll taxes, right? Those individuals get Medicare the month of their 65th birthday.Zach: Got you. So, no matter what, they're going to get Part A. I know you said you paid into it while you're working. Is there any additional costs added to that?Nick: Right. So, great question there, Zach, and worth mentioning here as well. For those individuals that qualify traditionally for Medicare, they worked 40 quarters, ten years, and paid in, Part A is premium-free, think of it as prepaid. But also you have those individuals that may qualify based on their spouse's, right? Their spouses may have worked 40 quarters or ten years, they also qualify for Medicare Part A the month of their 65th birthday.Then the third situation, there is a cost. And those individuals that don't have a spouse that qualifies for Medicare they can draw off of and don't have the credits themselves, depending on how much they have worked and paid in, Part A can be purchased.Zach: Yeah. So, you do still have the ability to get Part A, if you don't ‘qualify', you can always pay for that and pick it up.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: So, we know that in most cases, there's no additional premium; you've paid into it as you were working. Are there any other, you know, common costs associated with using Part A, whether it be a deductible, whether it be you know, skilled facility care, things such as that?Nick: Absolutely. So, yeah. So, basically with Part A, the way it works is it's designed with what we call a Medicare period of care, right? So, when those individuals that have Part A are admitted to the hospital, they are immediately responsible for a $1,556 deductible in the year 2022 that covers their first 60 days in their period of care, right? So, for those individuals, they go in, they pay that $1556 deductible, they're covered for the first 60 days, right?But it's worth mentioning that if they go beyond day 60 they do have additional cost, right? And that period of care doesn't end until they go a continuous 60 days without accessing care under Part A. So, assuming their period of care extends, day 61 through 90, those individuals are going to be responsible for $389 a day that they're in the hospital, and day 91 and beyond using those 60 lifetime reserve days, they're going to be responsible for $778 a day. You know, and the other thing to touch on here, Zach, that you mentioned is skilled facility care, right? So, we've seen a major transition in our market over the last five to ten years.You can recall when we were little, people had extended stays in the hospital, you know, people were in their one, two, four, six months. That doesn't happen really anymore, right? What we're seeing, the trend is individuals are being admitted to the hospital, they're being stabilized, and they're being shipped off to skilled facility care centers, right? And you know, whether that's for a hip replacement or a knee replacement, they fell and they broke something, speech, occupational therapy, whatever it may be, these individuals are staying at the skilled facility care centers for extended periods of time, not in the hospital. So, to qualify for Medicare to cover skilled facility care, they have to be in the hospital for at least three days and be admitted to the skilled facility care center within 30 days of being discharged. If those criteria are met, Medicare will cover day 1 through 20, one hundred percent, and then day 21 through 100, the individual is responsible for $194.50 per day.Zach: Got you there. So, you know, once someone is on Part A [everything 00:05:16], is there any limits where they can go, networks, anything like that?Nick: Yeah, one of the beauties of Medicare, Zach, and you know, we tell clients this all the time is Medicare's a nationwide program, right? California, North Carolina, Michigan, to Florida, and everywhere in between. They can access care, right? And that's one of the great things about Medicare is almost all facilities, almost all doctor's office accept Medicare. So, they have no restrictions, they can go just about anywhere they want.Zach: Got you. So, kind of wrapping up Part A there is, anyone can get that as long as you've worked 40 quarters or your spouse has worked 40 quarters. You're able to get that the month you turn 65, the first day of the month.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: And no matter whether you're continuing working or what you've got Part A?Nick: Yep.Zach: And with Part A alone, there was a $1,556 deductible on that they'd be responsible for but then, you know, it does help you in the skilled facility care things such as that, along with your 60-day continuous window of care. And again, no network so you can go wherever you want to go if you've got that Part A; pretty much every hospital, I'd say, in America takes Medicare.Nick: Absolutely, Zach. And just to wrap up on Part A, you know, one of the things that people need to remember is Part A is just hospital admittance insurance. Most of your typical services that are everyday needs are happening on outpatient care, or Part B, which we will be covering shortly.Zach: All right, so now we're going to roll into Part B, again, following our alphabet here, B comes right after A. So B, if you look at your red, white, and blue Medicare card, it is going to say medical, but we refer to it as outpatient.Nick: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we try to eliminate confusion there because the Medicare card says ‘hospital' for Part A and ‘medical' for Part B, but we kind of feel both of those are medical, right? So, we like to explain Part B as anything that is outpatient care, or care that is not admitted into the hospital.Zach: Exactly, yeah. So, kind of got that cleared up. What exactly does it cover when it comes to different things?Nick: Yeah. So, Part B is by far the most common Medicare part, right? It's the most common used, and it literally covers any Medicare-approved charge outside of being admitted to the hospital, right? So, that could be hospital admittance under observation, that could be lab work, physical therapy, CAT scans, MRIs, doctor visits, primary care, or specialists, durable medical equipment, diabetic testing supplies, all those things encompass Part B.Zach: So, we know in Part A you get that automatically when you turn 65. Part B work the same way, or is there a few more hoops to jump through for that?Nick: Yes. So, for Part B, you know, that individual that qualifies for Medicare, either off their work experience or off of a spouse's work experience, they still are eligible to get Part B the month of their 65th birthday, right? However, with Part B, there is a premium, so Medicare does allow it to be elective.Zach: So, with it being elective, how does that situation play out? Do I have to take Part B when I turned 65? If I have creditable coverage, am I fine? You know, if I don't take am I going to get penalized? How does that work?Nick: Yeah, so we're seeing this question come across our desk more and more, Zach. It seems like in this day and age, more and more people are working post-65. We didn't run into this a lot five years ago. But basically, the way it's working is for those individuals that are Medicare-eligible, turning 65, they qualify for Medicare, they can still take Part B the month of their 65th birthday, but if they're still working and have credible coverage, right, which is defined as coverage, at least equivalent to Medicare, they do not have to take Part B. They can postpone it without penalty, assuming they have credible coverage.Zach: Got you. So, you said, you know, 2022, that average premium is $170.10.Nick: Yep.Zach: Which leads you to say if that's the average, there can be some outliers. Is there a way to make that cost lower?Nick: Yeah. So, you know, for a lot of individuals out there, they qualify for what's called Medicare Savings Programs, right? And we know those different programs, whether that's QMB, SLMB, Extra Help those types of things, those programs are designed to reduce or eliminate the premiums, deductibles, and copays associated with Part B, right? So, there are individuals that pay less, there are individuals that pay nothing if they qualify for those Medicare Savings Programs. And it's worth mentioning, to qualify for those programs, you need to reach out to Medicare, the Social Security office that goes through them.Zach: I'd be willing to bet it works the other way, too. I bet they can get a multiplier on you also.Nick: Yep, yep. So, what we see—you know, and once again, we're seeing it more and more as people are coming out of the workforce later in life—those individuals have what's called an IRMA, right, Income-Related Medicare Adjustment. So, if you have income levels above certain thresholds, Medicare is actually going to charge a multiplier, right, you're going to pay more than that $170.10 in 2022. medicare.gov is a great resource, they have the chart right there on the website, showing what those brackets are to get higher Part B costs.So, we certainly encourage people that think they may fall into that bracket, get on medicare.gov, reach out to us, you know, we can ask a couple questions and tell them what they would be looking at.Zach: Got you. So, kind of how we're on the cost of Part B—Nick: Sure.Zach: You know, if someone doesn't have credible coverage and they don't take Part B, then down the road they take Part B, what kind of penalty are they looking at?Nick: Yeah, so the government is penalizing those individuals that don't have Medicare and don't have credible coverage, right? And the penalty that they impose is 10% of the cost of Part B, per full year not covered either via Part B or creditable coverage, right? And it's worth mentioning, if they try to apply for Part B down the road, they're still going to pay that standard premium, they're going to pay that penalty on top of it, and unless they qualify for one of those Medicare Savings Programs like we were talking about, that's never going away.Zach: Yep so looking there, at you know—there are different times to enroll, in that, you know, when people do turn 65, a lot of times they take A and B at the same time.Nick: Yep.Zach: You can delay Part B, as we've talked about. What are those—that situation look like? If someone delays Part B, does that vary from when they turn 65?Nick: Absolutely. So, for individuals that are taking Original Medicare when they're turning 65, those individuals, you know, they get it the month of their 65th birthday. But for those individuals that are delaying Medicare, right, there's two different groups that it's worth mentioning here. For those people that have credible coverage that are still working, you know, they can take Part B anytime concurrent with their loss of coverage, or retirement, right, they have what's called a special election period. But the thing to mention is for those individuals that delay Part B that don't have credible coverage, they can only apply for Part B at certain times throughout the year, right?And that's what's called the general election period. Zach, right? And basically what that is a period from January 1st through March 31st each year that they can apply for Medicare Part B to go into effect 7/1 of that year.Zach: Right. So, you know, kind of look at you have your annual enrollment period, which is every year, October 15th, December 7th, which doesn't really play into this, but then you have your initial enrollment, which people might hear a lot about when they first turned 65, or take their Part B of Medicare. So, looking at, you know, we've kind of we've gone over what the premium can be as well as what possibly the penalty could be. As a whole, what does Part B have? What is it going to cover? What's going to be your out-of-pocket with that?Nick: Yeah, so you know, back to what we kind of mentioned earlier, just to kind of recap this is, Part B is going to cover anything that's not admitted into the hospital, right? So, you know, once again, that's hospitalization under observation; CAT scans; MRIs; lab work; physical therapy; doctor's visits, whether primary care or specialists; diabetic testing supplies; durable medical equipment. And the way Part B is designed, it's an 80/20 coinsurance, right? So, Medicare's covering 80%, the client is responsible for the remaining 20%, plus the Part B deductible, which is, in the year 2022, $233, right? So, it's worth mentioning here—and we tell this to people all the time, this is why we encourage people to get supplemental policies—that 20% that we speak of is uncapped.Now, if you're going to the doctor once a year, that's not a big deal, right? But if you're going through cancer treatments, if you're going through some sort of outpatient surgery, you got to pay 20% of all of that cost, which certainly leaves people with some exposure, right?Zach: Got you. So, you know, no max out of pocket; you know, you're going to keep paying that 20—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: —until—and again, Part B is very similar to Part A, there's no networks.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: They take Medicare, they're going to take in. As long as you may have been doing this, I don't think I've ran into a doctor's office that doesn't take Medicare, yet.Nick: Yeah. In ten years, I've ran into one facility that didn't accept Medicare.Zach: Yep. So, kind of wrapping up Part B there. Know no, it is, in a sense, elective; when you turn 65 or retire from work losing credible coverage, you can pick up Part B at that time. If you don't pick up Part B without credible coverage, they are going to give you a nice little permanent penalty to add onto that, which for 2022 is $170.10. Probably going to see an increase in that down the road.Nick: Mm-hm. Absolutely.Zach: It's going to cover everything for you 80/20, whether that be durable medical equipment, diabetic testing, outpatient surgery, or anything like that. But that 20% is not going to be capped.Nick: Yep, absolutely.Zach: All right. And kind of moving on down the line. Here we've done A, we've done B. We're going to skip over C, so we're going to hit in Part D of Medicare. Easy to remember what it covers because covers your drugs. Part D: Drugs, easy to keep up with there. So, we have talked about, you know, in Part A and Part B, how you get it, what you qualify for. How does that work with Part D?Nick: Yes, so Part D, you know, it's worth mentioning, Unlike Supplemental Coverage, or Medicare Advantage coverage, which we will be covering in next episode, With Part D, the individual only has to have a minimum of Part A or B of Medicare, although most people have A and B, right? But it's worth noting for those individuals that are still working that are delaying Part B, just having Part A is enough to purchase Part D. And it's also worth mentioning, you have to live in the plan's service area, right? Part D drug plans are network-based, so you have to have a minimum of A and/or B, and live in the plan's service area to purchase a drug plan it.Zach: So, also we've talked about cost. When it comes to cost, A and B for the most part, are standardized. Is Part D the same way, or you know, what is its cost?Nick: Yes. So, one of the things that, you know, we're always telling people as we're speaking with them is all prescription drug plans are different, right? And, you know, we see drug plans anywhere from $6.50 a month in premium in the year 2022 All the way north of $100 a month, right? And, you know, it's like we say, if one plan was the best for everybody, right, they would put the rest out of the business.So, as far as costs, it certainly has a wide range, and that all depends on what the scripts, what medications those individuals are taking, right? But it's also worth mentioning, just like Part B of Medicare, right? Medicare Savings Programs can cover some or all of the costs of the drug plans and can also either reduce or completely eliminate the cost of those medications people are taking as well, right? So, it can come down. And it's also worth mentioning, IRMA coming back into play here, right, that Income-Related Medicare Adjustment, for those individuals that are higher-level earners, right, they have a multiplier on that Part D premium, so they would pay that multiplier on top of the standard premium for Part D.Zach: Pretty easy to see why Part D is the most complicated part of our job—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: When it comes there. So, you know, kind of covered, premiums are going to vary, and then on top of that you could get help through Medicare, or you could get a multiplier on Medicare there. So, what does it take to qualify for Part D? I know you said yet to have Part A and/or Part B, one or the other, but what if I'm-you know, what, if I'm in that boat where I'm still working? Do I have to take Part D if I have Part A, or can I forgo it?Nick: Yeah. So, very similar to Part B, Part D is elective right? Now, you have to have credible coverage to not be penalized, but you can delay it. So, if you're 65, you're becoming Medicare eligible, you're still working, or maybe you're retired and you're still carrying group insurance, you don't have to take a drug plan as long as your coverage is credible. And once again, credible [unintelligible 00:18:59] coverage is defined as coverage at least equivalent to Medicare's basic coverage, right?So, for those individuals that are still working, they are not needing Medicare Part D, they will not be penalized for not taking a Medicare prescription drug plan.Zach: So, you said they—you know, if they have credible coverage, they're not going to be penalized, which therefore means there's a penalty.Nick: Yep.Zach: What is that penalty?Nick: Yeah. So, it's a little bit different than the way Part B works. So, for Part D, the average cost of a per prescription drug plan in 2022 is approximately $34. So, every full month that they go without credible coverage, or coverage, they are going to be penalized 1% of that $34 premium in the year 2022, times the amount of full months they went without coverage. Now, it's worth noting that average premium costs switches year-to-year, right? We've watched that steadily creep up over the last few years.So, you know, it's very hard for us to be able to give people an exact penalty, what they would be looking at. Medicare is who's going to determine those, Medicare is who's going to issue those, so we can give people an idea, but ultimately that information has to come from Medicare, right?Zach: Got you there. So, you know, we know when you first turn 65 going into Medicare, you can get Part D, if you go that route.Nick: Yep.Zach: What if I've been 65 for a while and I get some new prescriptions, it's not covered well on my plan, when can I make changes to those?Nick: Yes. So, for those individuals that are new to Medicare, they're in that initial enrollment period, right? That window runs three months before their effective date up to three months after. Once that period ends, right, they're very limited in the ways that they can make changes, right, the most common is annual enrollment period, right? Anybody that's been in this business, knows anything about it, they get bombarded, you know, in that timeframe.But from October 15th through December 7th, those individuals can make changes, as many as they want, and when the sun goes down December 7th, the last application that was signed and turned in becomes effective 1/1, right? But now over the last few years, you know, Medicare introduced the Medicare Advantage open enrollment period, right, which is now running January 1st through March 31, and during that timeframe, individuals that are on Medicare Advantage plans can make a change to their drug coverage in two different forms, right? So, they can change from one Medicare Advantage plan to another Medicare Advantage plan, or if they so choose, they can drop Medicare Advantage back to Original Medicare and pick up a prescription drug plan. But outside of those two windows, Zach, the only other situation, typically, that we see people can make changes is they have a special election period, right? And in our business, what that means is, A, they're moving, right?In our area, we see people coming down from the north moving here, or maybe they're snowbirds, they're moving from here or the north down to Florida. Those individuals get a special election period because they're moving out of that plan's service area, right? And then the other caveat would be those individuals that are post-65 that are still working, that are still carrying group insurance, those individuals have a special election period when they retire and/or lose coverage that they can make a change to their drug coverage as well.Zach: So, kind of off that point, there are networks on these drug plans that does give you the ability to change if you do move because you would be out of your network service area—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: There. Yep. So, you know, we talk to people all the time, especially [AEP 00:22:44] about prescription plans. When you're talking to us, talking to your agent, whoever, when you're going through this, one, you know, what are some things you need to make sure you have handy to make our lives easier as an agent, but then what—tell them on our end what we're looking at, to help them make a decision?Nick: Yeah, so I'm going to answer that question backwards, Zach, okay? I'm going to answer your second question first, and we'll fire away on the second one. So, for those individuals that are looking, right, to get prescription drug coverage, there's several things that they need to understand about a plan, or at least grasp, right, to know why it is what we're doing, right? It's easy for us to recommend a solution, but we feel—I know, we've always discussed this—we feel that ultimately, you know, it's our job to educate people, but it is ultimately their decision, right?So, for us, you know, what we're looking at, you know, in the grand scheme here is overall cost, right? I mean, you know, that's what I want to know, what are these plans going to cost you, whether that's in the form of a premium, whether that's in the form of a deductible on your plan, whether that's in the form of the copays you pay to fill your script each year, we're looking at that aggregate annual cost, right? Now, as far as what we need to be effective as a tool for them in searching plans, you know, all plans are different, Zach, as we know. The premium is different, some plans have deductibles, some don't, some offers zero copay on tier one, tier two, some don't, right?So, what we ask of clients to be effective in this manner is we need a list of your prescriptions, we need to know the dosages of each one of your prescriptions, and then we ultimately need to know the frequency that you're taking them or filling them, and we have the ability to plug in and pull all options in their area and discuss those costs with them.Zach: Yeah, definitely. So, kind of wrapping up Part D, put a bow on it there. It is similar to B, it's elective—Nick: Sure.Zach: —in a sense. As long as you've got credible coverage elsewhere, you don't have to take Part D at the time you turn 65. As long as you have A or B, you are eligible for it. And plans vary. This is a plan that you definitely need to reach out to your agent, reach out to us—Nick: We'd prefer if it was us, Zach.Zach: Yeah. [laugh]. Oh, yeah. And so, you know—because they do vary so much by premium, deductibles, copays, networks, things like that, but they will cover your prescriptions; there are ways out there to work that.Nick: Yeah. Just to add, wrapping up here, Zach, you know, one of the things that we always preach to our agents and we always tell our clients is, this is the basics of everything that has to do with Medicare, right? So, we feel that these are important, people need to have a grasp of the way that Original Medicare and prescription drug coverage works before they're really ever going to have a chance, right, to know how that secondary or that Medicare Advantage plan works.So, as you're listening to this, we've kind of been generic, right? We're covering the highlights. For those individuals that have more questions that maybe have a specific question, you know, reach out to us, 844-437-4253. We're here, we're ready to answer your questions, and we'd certainly love to hear from you.Zach: All right, folks. So, this kind of wraps up episode one here. We covered Parts A, B, and D of Medicare. We hope that that helped you out there, answered some questions for you. We tried to cover some of the real basic questions we get on a daily basis.You know, but if you do have more questions or want more information, you know, ready to sign up and looking for help, we'd be more than happy to help. You know, as Nick stated earlier, you can always give us a call at 844-437-4253, or we can always be reached by email zach@getsbi.com or nick@getsbi.com. We hope you found this episode informational and helpful, and as always, we'll catch you guys next time.Announcer: Thank you for listening, and we hope you found this episode informative. If we answered your questions, odds are you aren't the only one wanting to know, so please share this episode with your friends and family. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and rate our show on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts to catch all of our episodes. If you want more information, or want to talk directly with Nick and Zach, you can call them at 1-844-437-4253. You can also find them on Facebook at facebook.com/seniorbenefitinc or on their website. seniors-livinghealthy.com. Thanks for listening, and have a great day.

Zach chats with Aubrey Blanche, the Director of Equitable Design & Impact at Culture Amp, about re-imagining tech and belonging. She discusses her complicated relationship with race and identity, talks about how to effectively combat diversity fatigue, and much more. Click the links in the show notes to connect with Aubrey and check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan!Connect with Aubrey on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Visit her personal website.Check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan by clicking here.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.Struggling with your Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI) work? Kanarys—a Black-founded company—has your back. Regardless of where you are on your DEI journey, we arm you with the insights you need now to take action now. From audits to assessments to data-informed strategy, we'd love to be the partner you have been looking for. Email stacey@kanarys.com or learn more at https://www.kanarys.com/employerTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, you know what we're doing, right? Every single week we're having real talk in a corporate world. And what does that mean? That means we're having authentic conversations that what? Center and do what else? Amplify. Who? Black. And who else? Brown people. I keep on doing this weird call-and-response thing. I guess I'm just really excited. But the point is we're having these conversations, and we typically have them with movers and shakers, and that could be executives to entrepreneurs to social capital investors to activists to elected officials to public servants, authors, you know, whoever. We're talking to everybody. Typically these people are Black and brown, but every now and then we'll have some white or white-presenting folks on the podcast as well, and we're really passionate about that. Our goal is that if you're a Black or brown person or one of the onlys in your workplace that you listen to this and feel affirmed and heard, and if you're not one of those people that you take this opportunity, a rare opportunity, to really hear some frank conversations about, and from the persectives of, Black and brown people about being Black and brown at work, and you can use that information to be a better ally. See what I'm saying? So it helps everybody, and so like I said, every week we have an incredible guest, so let me just put our own collective back at Living Corporate. We've had some incredible guests though, and today's no different. We have Aubrey Blanche. Aubrey Blanche is The Mathpath - that's a math nerd and an empath, which is wild because that's, like, the Dark Side and the Light Side of The Force coming together. She's like a Gray Jedi. Anyway, director of equitable design and impact at Culture Amp and a start-up investor and adviser. Through all of her work, she seeks to question, re-imagine and re-design systems--now, y'all know we're gonna double-click on that in a minute--and practices that surround us to ensure that all people can access equitable opportunities and build a better world. Her work is undergirded--I like that word, "undergirded." Undergirded. Just say that to y'allselves, y'all. Undergirded. Undergirded by her training in social scientific methods and grounded in the fundamental dignity and value of every person. Aubrey, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Aubrey: Hey. Thank you so much for having me. I feel, like, genuinely blown away at the idea that I get to join you, and also your intro makes me want to cry. I just love what you're doing. I love the mission and the vision. And "undergirded" is such a fun word.Zach: It's so great, right? There's certain words that are just really nice to say. "Undergirded." "Plethora."Aubrey: Right? I mean, [I'm a?] deeply over-educated human being, so just occasionally getting to use those silly $17 words that you don't to, but [?].Zach: You don't have to. Erykah Badu once said, "What good do your words do if they don't understand you?" But that's for another conversation, another day. Look, I read your bio, or rather let me be honest--I took out, like, the first 20% of your bio for the sake of this conversation, but what does all of that really mean? Like, what do you actually do?Aubrey: Yeah, what do I do? I feel like what I try to do is crush white supremacy with capitalism, which is confusing conceptually, but really what I think I try to do is harness the privilege that I have and I guess the oppression I've experienced as this very liberal human, and we can talk about what that means, and try to use the privilege that I've had and try to figure out how to scale those out. Like, that's the [?] thing in my soul that I'm trying to do, and right now I happen to do that within the context of technology and investing and finance. What I'm really interested in is learning the rules of systems so that we can begin to evolve those systems so that they begin breaking themselves down where they are harming people.Zach: I like that. I like that a lot. There's a lot of nuance in what you just said, so that's why I'm really excited to get into this. In fact, let's talk a little bit about, like, this moment where we are, right? And before we do that, like, let's zoom in on our interaction about you being on this platform, right?Aubrey: Right. So for folks on the podcast, basically what happened is Zach was awesome and reached out to have me on, and my first sort of response was "Hey, want to be clear that I'm white-passing. I want to make sure that we have sort of BIPOC folks in front of my voice. I'm really happy to speak sort of to my people, but I also want to be respectful of not taking up more space than I need to," and that for me is because--it's really important to me just, like, on a basic, ethical level. Like, we have this moment. It's always been important to listen to those voices, and I've tried to create that space, but it's especially important now because so many people are listening. So I think I'm trying to figure out where my role is in this moment as a woman of color but someone who does have white privilege in so many settings, and then on top of that I'm trans-racially adopted, so there's even more nuance inside that sort of like--Zach: Wow.Aubrey: Yeah, it's a lot.Zach: That is a lot. Okay, so when you say trans-racially adopted, like, your parents are what ethnicity?Aubrey: Yeah. So I'm mixed, and I'm Mexican-American, and as of about a couple weeks ago I found that the other part is Irish. Fun fact - adoption is weird and keeps coming back to you. So my adoptive mother is second-gen American on both sides, Euro-American, and then my adopted father is actually Euro-American and Indigenous. So he's Choctaw and has been an Indigenous legal activist in addition to being sort of corporate counsel, but my dad, what's interesting is despite the fact that I grew up sort of in the Indigenous community and things like that is my dad is also white-passing. So my whole adoptive family looked hella white, but we actually had a really complex sort of racial identity within our family.Zach: I mean--so I think it's important, right? I mean, we're gonna get there in a minute, but... so you operate in this space, right? I know when I first saw your picture I was like--do you watch Steven Universe?Aubrey: I don't.Zach: Okay. So you should check out Steven Universe, 'cause, like, you give me strong Rose Quartz vibes. And it's a compliment. Like, you should look up Rose Quartz. She's great. But you kind of look like a star. Like, you do all these talks and all these things, and so outside looking in it's like--I think you sit in this space that's really interesting. So I'm not gonna profile you, 'cause I've listened to what you actually have to say, but you sit in this space that's, like, you speak about diversity, equity and inclusion, you are white-passing--like, your experience and your identity is much more complex than that, but you sit in this very influential space and it's, like, kind of--what I'm curious about is, considering the space that you've inhabited historically around this work, and when you think about this moment--like, it's kind of like a watershed moment, right? Like, people are really starting to call D&I institutions to account, particularly white women in these spaces and groups. I'm curious, like, is there anything right now that you're more sensitive to? You kind of talked a little bit about you've been thinking about it more. Like, where are you at just emotionally and mentally around this work right now?Aubrey: Yeah. So I think, like, the Overton window of what we can talk about to white people has shifted, and so what I mean by that is my personal philosophy is that I'm someone who was born in a situation that was let's just say much rougher than the one I got adopted into, and something I've always carried with me is--like, the phrase I use to describe it is "Little girls born like me do not sit in rooms and talk to billionaires." It's just a fact. Statistically speaking, there's no reason I should be in the place in the world that I am. And so what I think about is I've moved through these very white supremacist systems, right? Like, I got to survive 'cause I need more SPF than some people, and I've learned how those systems work, but the problem is I always felt really alienated by them because they didn't align with my sense of self, because for a lot of complicated reasons I really have been socialized and racialized as a Latina because of the social context I grew up in, and I didn't actually understand whiteness until I went to college and people stopped being racist to me, and I was like, "Wow, I didn't know that was optional." Truly, and it sounds really silly to someone I think, but just given the specific circumstances of my life that happened. So throughout my 20s as I sort of my grew in my consciousness on this I kind of said, "There are particular spaces I can speak to that people who are darker than me can't," and I own and acknowledge that that is a relic and a fact of a white supremacist system, but it's also still true. So what I try to do, and I will admit imperfectly, which is why I think we need people to keep us accountable to this integrity, is I try to talk to people who are going to listen to me more or I try to say things to shift the Overton window so that when darker people of color say them they receive less abuse. So I recognize when I say something first--and I say first meaning in ths space, not that it's my magical idea, that I'm less likely to just get shit on for it because I look like Karen. And so I think about it like, "Can I be the linebacker for Black women? Can I normalize that idea so that we can make that space less hostile so then I can go, "Now listen to who you should listen to, and let me bring that voice into the room"? So I think that's my dual responsibility, and now because suddenly we're seeing communities actually capable of listening to BIPOC folks without immediately abusing I'm much more careful about where I step back, because I think I have less internal intuition about where the correct action is, and so I'm trying to be more deferential. So that's where I am, but I wouldn't say that I know what I'm doing. I'm figuring it out. Zach: No, that's a really honest answer, and thank you for the context and background. I think your premise, what you started off with in terms of your purpose, is different than most folks. Like, if you ask most people their purpose, like, they're not going to say what their real purpose is, because most folks--painting with a wide brush, but I mean what I'm about to say--most folks' goal is to, by some degree, be white men, right? So, like, their goal is to get as much power as they can. So, like, your whole framing of, like, "I'm gonna block for this other person so that they can have a platform to actually speak, I'm gonna leverage my access and my power and my privilege to then create space for darker-skinned Latinx, for Black women, for other people who are societally, historically in different ways just on their face," no pun intended. Like, that's just not the typical goal, right? So we've talked a little bit about the nuances of your identity and your background, and that's incredible. I'd like to talk more about the concept of being white-presenting while also at the same time being a person of color, right? My challenge, Aubrey, right now is that, like, that "person of color" term is starting to become this, like, junk drawer thing where, like, everybody's a person of color, but we don't really specify or name identity in this work, even now. So, like, that's why with Living Corporate, we don't say "we center marginalized experiences of people of color at work," we say Black and brown because we really want to be explicit with who we're talking about. You know, you brought up being white-presenting. I'd like to hear more about the nuances of, from your perspective, Latinx identity and how you present versus culture and ethnicity, and let's also add, like, the dynamic of how people perceive you.Aubrey: So I think it's something I think about a lot, and I want to bring in another piece of my identity that's been really helpful for me in figuring this stuff out, which is I'm also a queer person. I'm, like, bisexual or pansexual or--I don't know, whatever's something that's definitely not definitely gay and not definitely straight, and I don't really think about it much harder than that, but I have a lot of things that are, like, queer signifiers in terms of my identity but, like, could also just be confused for [alt?] straight people. So again, most of my identities are invisible and liminal, and the way that I think about it is that we talk about that identity construction is a process, and so I can't change that, like, I didn't grow up in a Latin family, for example, and I would never lie about that. Something that was really interesting to me was--I have a friend who's Indigenous who gave me a framework for thinking about this because I've struggled with my legitimacy as, like, part of the Latinx community or how do I relate to this label, "people of color"? I have a complicated set of feelings with that language but think it can be useful in terms of identifying a collective. For me it was really about who I am, and my identity is actually not something that can be challenged. The fact is, right, my lineage comes from people in Mexico, but I also can acknowledge that I have both colonizer and colonized in my DNA, and that is something [I have to?] deal with, but the thing that a friend of mine said that gave me the legitimacy that my identity is real is he said, "I can't accept that the fact that we are pale means we are no longer from our ancestors, otherwise they would have been right that they could [BLEEP] the indigeniety out of us." And that, like, is probably pretty harsh, but for me I was like, "Yeah, you're right. There's an energy. There's a spirit. There's a culture." Now, I, for my own well-being did need to be put in a different family than the one I was originally born into. I've had to connect with and sort of become a part of my culture as an adult, so I've had a little bit of a different experience because of what was important for me. And so I think there's that, but I think to pretend, like, my experience in terms of economics, in terms of the way that I have experienced racism and racialization, are meaningfully different than most or a big portion of the Latinx community, and I think for me that tells me what my role should be. So I'm grateful for the folks who, like, welcome me into the community and don't do the, like, "You're not legitimate 'cause you have a different story," a story that also understands--here's a fun fact - my adoptive mother is the most incredible person I've ever met, absolutely saved my life, and also we know that women of the dominant race, you know, bringing children from the colonized race into their family is [?]. Like, both of those things are true, and so for me I say because I have this almost armor in the systems we live in, my role is to listen to my community and advocate to the majority for it because I can be a translator, because I can move between, and so rather than seeing my ability to play with those systems of oppressions as questions about my legitimacy, I relate to them as in they give me a special role for my activism in the same way I think each of us have a special role in the way that we bring our activism to life in line with our purpose and our unique privileges and oppressions. So yeah, that was really deep for you, but that's my honest answer, and I think I try to hold the humility that, like, I've definitely [BLEEP] up, right? I've definitely done things that were wrong, but I try to surround myself with people who tell me that when it's happening so I can at least try to minimize the way that, you know, my white fragility or my internalized racism or any other -isms aren't impacting the people around me.Zach: I mean, you out here just casually dropping wild bombs. You're doing a phenomenal job. You should continue on this path. Like, stay here. So let's talk a little bit about the culture summit in 2019 that you were at a guest speaker, a keynote speaker [at,] and you talked about diversity fatigue in tech, right? So it's interesting--we're going to continue to nail on this the next few questions, but I feel as if--so the majority has had to be aware or care about Black people for... let's see here, has it been, like, three months? Two-and-a-half months? Like, it's been a handful of months. Like, it hasn't been that long, and people are already talking about being tired. So, like, I'm curious about when you think about the concept of diversity fatigue with, like, white leaders, and especially as you think about it at an organizational level, like, what have you seen work well to manage diversity fatigue?Aubrey: Yeah. I think the thing about it--and this really relates to this idea that I say a lot, which is, like, [BLEEP] D&I, and what I don't actually mean is, like [BLEEP] the goal, and I think they're actually related things. People are tired. Like, I want to sit there and be like, "How dare you get tired?" But I understand how the human nervous system works, so I have to, like, deal with that as a real constraint. But I feel like diversity fatigue is partially happening because everybody's had the same ten diversity talks for five years. They, like, put some money into branding and putting a Black face on their website, and then threw their hands up and said, "Why isn't racism done?" And so when you describe it that way you're like, "Oh, yeah, that was never going to work in the first place." So I think the solution to diversity fatigue, rather than us, like, yelling at people who are tired, which is just going to make them turn off, and I, like, hold in my heart the frustration that we have to do this, right, because people are tired. They've done enough. But again, philosophical versus practical rationalism there. I think it's this move to equitable design that actually I think fights diversity fatigue, because what are people tired of? They're tired of being lectured at. They're tired of not doing. So instead of saying, "We care about D&I," my response is "If you don't have a budget and you don't have a time allocation, I don't care and you don't count," 'cause I'm sorry, your caring didn't help anyone. And that's what equitable design is, right? It's about what saying "What is my plan? What is my process? What is my data about what's broken and what is my idea and my action about how we'll try to fix it?" And when you go with that methodology, suddenly everybody gets a job. So maybe it's--I'm speaking about Culture Amp in this exact moment, our programs, right? Our Black employees' job right now is to attend the mental health program we're offering for them and to take care of themselves. That is their job.Zach: That is so healthy.Aubrey: Right? Like, that is your job right now. In our company anti-racism strategy, our Black [campers?], your job is to take care of yourself. We've made it clear. We've brought in experts. My job is to build the corporate strategy, you know? Our CEO's job is to fully fund the plan. This equitable design idea gives everyone a job, and it's hard to get fatigued with something when you've given people, like, little win breadcrumbs along the way. So I'm not [perfect?], and if folks want to they can check out Culture Amp's anti-racism plan online. We didn't just publish the commitment, we published the operating plan, and at the end of this sort of six-month cycle we'll provide an update for folks because accountability matters. It's real. Cultureamp.com/antiracism if you want to check it out. The pillars are easy, which is support and care, accountability, education, and then access. So for me that's what equitable design is. It's everyone taking a look at the actions that they're already taking in their day and going, "How can I design this to create a more equitable impact?" So maybe you're giving a career coaching to that friend of a friend's kid. Why don't you ask that student to find an underrepresented classmate who you're also gonna give a career coaching conversation to? I'm telling you. I did it last month. When you read a book written by a Black woman, why don't you make sure you go online and write a review for it, because then the algorithm knows that people engage with that book. Right? It's not about always--although certainly if you want to donate to the movement for Black lives and everything I vehemently support you. I think people mistake that, like, activism, that anti-racism, that D&I is something separate from what they're already doing as opposed to a slight edit of the things they're doing. So that's how you overcome fatigue, and I'm totally fine if you as an ally--like, you just did that coaching conversation with someone who would not have had access to an executive before? Like, I'm chill if you pat yourself on the back for that. Go ahead. Like, I know, "ally cookies" or whatever, but if you want to self-high five or you want to tell another one of your friends who isn't marginalized from that group, like, "I did a good thing," and you want a high five from another white person, fine. Cool. If it keeps you motivated and it gets you to do the next 10 things over the next 10 and 100 years, then I'm fully supportive of that. So I guess that's where it is. Like, we fight diversity fatigue by doing things consistently that actually work. Zach: I feel like a large part of this work is massaging white discomfort or trying to figure out ways to, like, Jedi mind trick white folks into caring about Black and brown people. And, like, I hear what you're doing at Culture Amp. The link will be in the show notes, 'cause I just looked at it and it's fire. So it's worth, and I also shared it with a couple of mentors, but I'd like to get your reaction to what I just said and, like, if you agree with that, then, like, is that tenable in today's climate?Aubrey: That's such a good question. I was a little quiet because I was like, "Is it, like, 60% or 80% of the work?" Right? No, I think it absolutely is, and it's the reason that I choose to do this work, because I think something that people don't talk about enough--and I talk about in some communities that I'm building--us white-passing folks are the tactical weapons to solve this particular problem, right? Like, I don't just, like, code switch, although I do that too. I literally identity switch at work minute by minute because I have the unique ability to, like, feel both sides of the coin 'cause I've lived both sides of them, so that's actually a lot of the reason I do the work I do, because I know how much of this is, like, managing white discomfort, and frankly, my face partially manages white discomfort to have discussions about racism and white supremacy. So I think that's true. Now, your next question is really important. Is it tenable or sustainable? I have a complex answer to that. So philosophically my answer to you is no. My deeply practical, science lady answer is it's not an avoidable problem in the short term. So this is a weird theory I'm gonna give you, and it has to do with drug addiction, but I think it's relevant for anti-racism work. So here's a theory I've never spoken online before. So there's something really fascinating about drugs and how they work on the brain, which is that the dosage and the frequency that they hit the brain completely changes the brain's response to it. So, like, small amounts over time create resistance. Large amounts at once tend to cause addiction. I'm vastly oversimplifying, but just work with me. So I'll say people who experience racism--not people of color, but people who experience racism, we basically have been given doses of racial stress throughout our lives, so we now have resilience to it. I'm nto saying it's good. I'm not saying it's ideal. I'm just saying it's sort of a descriptive fact of the world. So white people, we basically have to dose them with enough racial stress in the right ratios at the right time to get them to be able to have these conversations, because what the research is telling us is white fragility is actually, like, people's brains perceiving they're in danger when they're in absolutely no danger whatsoever. Like, that's neuroscience. So philosophically I'm like, "Yeah, it's not sustainable," but we have to think about ways to give people experience through racial stress, white people specifically, so that they're resilient and can have the conversations, and I think that's the process that's happening right now in a broader cultural sense is that white people--I mean, have you seen the New York Times Bestseller list? It looks like my bookshelf. [?] on one of my shelves called "What White America's Reading." So what I'm saying is I think we're in a moment where white people are being dosed with racial stress in a way that they never have been, and so I am saying that, like, we're still probably going to have another--I don't know, I don't want to put a timeline on it. That's a terrible statistician thing to do, but I do think it will change because more white people are educating themselves, and even, like, white people that are in my family that I've never seen talk about racial justice before are, like, texting me and asking me questions. So, like, I'm really hopeful. I know how the 17 million different ways this could go sideways, but I have to hold onto that hope because that's what motivates me to push so hard right now. So I think that there's a real chance that there's enough white people who are like, "Oh, I get some rules now, and I at least know to shut up and listen," that we could build a coalition that's big enough to actually create fundamental structural change. Like, I have to believe that's true because that's what I spend all of my time pushing for.Zach: Right. I mean, I struggle with the ways that this space plays with language. I don't know, like, to a certain extent, Aubrey, like, the language itself becomes like, this test and, like, just becomes very classist, and it becomes really exclusionary, because we're talking in these very, like, esoteric terms that kind of mean whatever, right, and we write long Medium posts about this versus that, but at that same time a lot of folks are still using equity and equality interchangeably. So we really don't understand--when I say we I mean, like, just the common person, not even a D&I expert but just, like, the common person. I do think a word though, when we talk about this space and we talk about achieving belonging at work is, like, redistributing organizational power. I don't often hear the word "power," like, really employed in conversations, particularly around Black engagement, brown people. I don't hear that word. Have you thought about that? Is that significant to you at all?Aubrey: I think I want to add another word in, 'cause I agree with you, right? Getting really esoteric about language, it excludes people who haven't had those discussions about those specific subtle differences. I talk about equity. I actually don't really use the word equality. I don't think about equality that much.Zach: I don't either, but people be throwing--I've seen it. I've seen it, like, some big brands have used the word equality. I'm like, "Why are we--"Aubrey: I'll just give my particular view, and I want to do this without, like, throwing shade, but for me I tend to see people use equality when they're familiar with a lot of the, like, deep social justice theories, because they're articulating the outcome, and equality is the outcome of the process of equity, and the process of equity, by literal definition, is about redistributing power and opportunity, at least in the way that I perceive it. I think the other term that we have to talk about or that I think about a lot, and I can't believe I work at a place where I have, like, advanced, deep conversations with executives about this, is [?] collective organizational justice. I think justice is helpful because there's--I just learned a new type of justice, which is, like, my favorite fact ever, but thinking about, like, what does procedural justice look like, right? Equitable design creates processes that create procedural justice. I think about testimonial justice. So how do I make sure that people's stories have the space to be told in the ways that they need to to respect human dignity and opportunity? And so I think redistributing organizational power is at the core of what I do, so really what I'm doing all day, whether I'm writing a corporate strategy or thinking about what hat I need to wear in a particular conversation, is I'm doing a power analysis of the situation. Like, a good example of this, and I'm gonna put this out there, when I think about power and systemic power, right, one of the most abusive things that exists that most D&I leaders aren't even talking about are forced arbitration agreements. You have just [?] or also class action rights. So by including that in your employment contract to all of the CEOs and leaders listening, what you are saying is "[BLEEP] you and your power. You have absolutely no recourse that is fair if we mess up and harm you," and I truly believe that that's true, because what you're doing is stripping that individual of the way that they might balance their power against the power of a corporation with backers, and that's even ignoring the racial power dynamics or the ableist power dynamics there. So I think we would be so much better served if we talked about power, but then the other important thing I want to bring in--and I realize it's your thing, but I'm gonna ask you a question, which is I don't think that people understand the difference between power with and power over, and it relates to [?] earlier where I almost laughed--not at you, but you said, like, "You're giving up power," and I almost laughed because I don't think by creating space for people I'm giving up power, because my definition of power is "power with," so I believe that when I move out of a particular space, I am gaining power because the collective is gaining power and I'm a part of that collective.Zach: But, see, in that though there's, like, this--I don't know. You have to have a different mindset and premise that you're operating from to even see that as power though, right? Because most people don't--it's a zero-sum game. There's also, like, a very capitalistic mindset to it too. So if you heavily prescribe to historically oppressive systems and you're not necessarily, like--you don't think in communal terms or frames, then you're not going to see it that way. I agree with you though that, like, the idea of power with and power over is--and it's funny, because I didn't know that's what you were going to say. I didn't know that that's what that meant in that context. I thought you meant, like, power with being like--I don't know, I interpreted it differently. I think about the fact that a lot of people don't consider the fact that, like, even if they aren't high in an organization, they still have power by way of their whiteness, and that's not a theoretical power. Like, it's a real power. As an example, let's pretend you and I work at Culture Amp and we are a part of the same team. We have the same job. In fact, I may be senior to you in the organization. The reality is, like, if you wanted to, you could just share a couple of points of feedback to other people around me and I could be fired. Not at Culture Amp, but you know what I mean. You have the societal--you have advantages to where if you say, "You know what? I just don't think Zach is really cutting it," or "I don't really think Zach is that bright," or "I don't think" whatever or "Zach makes me feel uncomfortable" or whatever the case is, right, and so what was a struggle for me is when we talk about power, yes, we're talking about, like, the white executives, or just executives period, like, people who are in positions of organizational authority, but also the people who are not in organizational authority who still can harm Black and brown people who should, on paper, be protected, even by the very pessimistic and harmful rules that that organization has created for its own leadership. Like, they still don't really even participate or benefit from those protections because of the color of their skin or because of a disability or whatever the case may be, you know what I mean?Aubrey: Oh, yeah. Absolutely, and I think that's actually something we don't teach people. I think it's, like, American culture in general is very aggressive. Like, a lot of our cultural values are about control, but we don't actually have a dialogue about it. So those of us on the bottom end of the distribution in any context tend to talk about it, but the people at the top don't, and so yeah, I think people--also because we're in this sort of capitalistic society. I say that as if I'm, like--capitalism is like traffic. I don't like it, but I have to be in it. I got that from Nicole Sanchez. I want to give her a shout-out. She's brilliant. I can only say that she's someone who has guided me and taught me, and I appreciate her wisdom, and I don't even have time to describe how much I think she's great, but I think that's it, that people don't understand power. And also I think there's this weird game in--I think it's everywhere, but, like, American culture lies about it, where the thing is people actually, like, crave power and status, but they have to lie about wanting it, and it comes from our whole lie about, like, "Classes don't exist in America," even though they obviously do. "We're not a classist system." Yeah, we are. I've been on every rung of it. Trust me, I know. At different points in my life.Zach: Right. Let's talk a little bit about--part of your bio I read included the concept of re-imagining systems, right? So I've had on a few guests, and many of them believe that this is a watershed moment for, quote-unquote, D&I, HR culture, like, that whole space. Do you think there's any radical re-imagining that needs to happen today or that really should have happened a while ago but is certainly, like, further mobilized by this moment?Aubrey: Absolutely. I mean, like, the thing is the phrase--it's been repeated to me, like, every week, like, "Never waste a good crisis." Well, what I mean is don't waste the attention on these problems, because attention is what can get you the solutions. So yeah, do I think it's a watershed? Gosh, I hope so. I hope that companies stop doing unconscious training and we have honest conversations about the fact that it was conscious design decisions in organizations that create intentional discrimination and exclusion. I've been saying that to everyone with a C-level title I can talk to. If you're like, "Unconscious bias," I'm like, "It was never unconscious bias. You were just too fragile to hear it. It was conscious failures of leadership."Zach: Listen... I'll never forget--this was some years ago--I was talking to a leader about... and it was literally on my way out, 'cause I left, and I made a risk log as I was leaving. I said, "These are just things you need to know about the project we was on and the people on your team. Here are things that would help you if you just considered the risks." Got on the phone. I had already resigned, so, like, it was, like, my last week, right? So then we're talking and she's like... one of the risk ops on there was--I literally made it so soft. I said "potential unconscious bias," and her response was "I've never had a situation where I've been unconsciously bias." And I said, "Well, by the very nature of the concept you wouldn't know if you had been unconsciously bias, 'cause it's unconscious." So it's wild when you think about, like, the multiple levels of grace and outs that white people provide themselves through diversity and inclusion work. It's just not to me about justice, not about equity, really it's not about Black and brown people at all, it's just about shoring up power and control while kind of, like, protecting yourselves from litigious risk, right? But it's not real.Aubrey: You know what, Zach? You just said the word "risk," and I want to one, yes, +1,000 you, and I want to talk about the way that risk can be re-imagined, and it's a thing I've been saying to lawyers and executives, not just at Culture Amp. Like I said, literally to anyone who will listen, because I figure I have my, like, Hamilton, my [?] energy about this, like, how much [?] can we get in this moment? Which is that we can decide that risk means the company losing business because we have to fire an executive who's an abusive [BLEEP]. Like, violations of human dignity are a risk we cannot bear, and we simply choose, when we identify abusers, to remove them out of our organizations. Like, that's a choice that people can make about the definition of risk. And frankly, even if you're talking in capitalistic terms, if you think about how much companies spend on, like, external legal firms when they get sued for discrimation, it is so much cheaper to fire an executive and hire a new one. Or anyone in the organization, right? If they're not an executive they're even less financially, you know, sort of creating return for the business. So again I go back to this idea of re-imagining. Let's take the words and the concepts and just ask the basic question - "Do we have to do it this way? Is there a better way?" A company could say, "We value people being treated well because we know that treating you well equals better cognition, which equals more innovation, which in this economy, in our business, equals more dollars and revenue." We can choose to act as if that is true, and that choice and that action is what builds the world in which it is true. So I'm saying this, like, I live in an industry where everyone's like, "We're changing the world." I'm like, "You're shooting a rocket into space. Someone did that already." Not to diminish that it's an incredible feat of engineering to get a rocket into space. It's incredible, but it's actually less incredible than being like, "Maybe we should treat our employees like full humans who are deserving of dignity." Like, that doesn't seem that bananas to me.Zach: Well, it doesn't though because you're rejecting white supremacy and patriarchy, like, full-stop.Aubrey: Because it's lame and it diminishes--[?] I could drive, like, what, a Lamborghini because I look white? Like, my soul is not better off. Other beings aren't better off. Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent, but white supremacy diminishes everyone, even those of us who benefit from it. Obviously those of us who benefit should do more work full-stop.Zach: Right. I feel you. I also think it's wack, but that's the reason. So what about this time right now scares you, Aubrey, mathpath, white-presenting woman, complex background. Like, is there anything right now that you feel more in the spotlight or more pressured?Aubrey: The thing that I'm, like, deeply afraid of in this moment, to be specific, is I know what the United States does to people who don't identify as white in history, and I'm afraid that white America won't take the signals that we're deep down the road to genocide seriously enough until we all start dying in higher numbers. That is actually what I'm afraid of, that white people don't think it's urgent enough to burn [BLEEP] down over, because the fact is, like, there are children in cages. This has been happening forever. We have police forces gunning down innocent civilians of all colors, although we know some communities experience that disproportionately. So what scares me? People wanting to lull themselves into a sense of security because they want the world to be better than it is.Zach: Yeah, it's scary. I think about where we are right now and just the death count because of COVID-19, and I think the fact that "defund the police" is still becoming such a--people are still pushing back so hard. I say, "Y'all, the data's right here. They're not solving crime. They're bleeding communities dry because the budgets are way too hard. We are underserved in these other service areas." And yet that's still, like, a radical, crazy idea. We're still pushing back against, like, the idea of reparations. Folks are still sending kids to school, right now, in the middle of a pandemic. Like you said, kids in cages. You're right. It's scary because--I don't know. There's a certain level of awareness that's been really cool to see. Kind of weird, to be frank. As a Black person it's kind of strange. But at the same time I'm looking everything and I'm just like, "Yo, this is--" Just talking about the pandemic alone, like, we haven't even hit the second wave, and so it's just like, "What are we doing?" So I hear you, that's a fear of mine too.Aubrey: That was the honest answer. It wasn't an upper, but [?] all of these things are under people's control, to pay attention, to advocate [?], and that's what I was going to link it to. Like, if that's not the world you want to see, refuse to live in it.Zach: Right, no, 100%. Okay, so let's wrap it up on this one. If you had to give three things executive leaders should be keeping in mind when it comes to engaging and retaining Black talent specifically, and in general a more socially conscious workforce--you think about Gen Z--like, what would those three things be?Aubrey: #1: You need to go to therapy to deal with your own self-esteem, control and power issues. They will absolutely come out in the workplace. #2: You must educate youreslf, and the Google machine is an incredible resource.Zach: And it's free.Aubrey: Free! There are so many people from Gen Z and the Black community that have put their thoughts and life experiences online you do not have to go bother someone who works with you. #3: What you value is not what they value, and they are coming to power. You need to learn how to gracefully evolve with the world. Those would be my most heartfelt pieces of advice to make what is an inevitable transition something that you can participate in and bring into the world as opposed to something you can fight and that will be painful.Zach: That's something that just kind of happens to you, 'cause it's going to happen, right?Aubrey: I mean, like, [?] is destiny. We know where this is going, so you can either be a part of that change and come into that new world or you can kick and scream, but it's coming, and it can either be fun or not fun, and that's really up to you.Zach: I mean, first of all, this has been fire. We haven't done sound effects in a while, but I still have them. Sound Man gonna put 'em in right here. And a Flex bomb too. There you go. Okay. So this has been incredible. You know what? I'm calling it right here. Aubrey Blanche, you are a friend of the show. Culture Amp, y'all are welcome here any time. This is not an ad. Culture Amp, what's up?Aubrey: Thank you for creating this space. I'm really grateful for this space to get to unpack these things. I guess my hope is other folks who have some life stories similar to mine get some wisdom and inspiration out of it so that they can do something that makes the world more incredible. So thank you so much for creating this space. I'm really grateful.Zach: Look, I appreciate you. This is great. Y'all, this has been Zach with the Living Corporate podcast. You know what we do. We have these conversations every single Tuesday, and then on Thursdays we have Tristan's Tips, and on Saturdays we have See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger. So we have, like, a whole network really on one platform. You just have to check in when you check in, okay? But look, that's been us. Check us out. We're all over Beyonce's internet. Just type in Living Corporate. We'll pop up. I'm not gonna go through all the domains. We got all of 'em except for livingcorporate.com. We have all the other ones, so just type us in and you'll see us over there. Until next time, this has been Zach. You've been listening to Aubrey Blanche, leader, mover, shaker. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach chats with award-winning marketing professional and author Frederick Joseph about marketing, white supremacy, and capitalism in this wide-ranging interview. Frederick speaks a bit about the nuances of white supremacy, particularly its function in the space that he inhabits, touches on his upcoming book The Black Friend, and so much more. Click the links in the show notes to connect with Frederick - you can pre-order The Black Friend on a variety of platforms!Connect with Frederick on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. You can find out more about (and pre-order!) his upcoming book, The Black Friend, on a variety of platforms.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. You know what we're doing. Every single week we're having a really good conversation, or I would think it's a pretty good conversation--yeah, your feedback says they're pretty good conversations--insightful discussions, real talk in a corporate world, with Black and brown influencers, thought leaders, elected officials, executives, entrepreneurs, social influencers, activists, you know, professors, educators, public servants, and I'm just really proud of this platform. I think we're in a point of time where people are really starved for content that centers and amplifies marginalized or historically oppressed voices and experiences, and Living Corporate has been doing that for over two years, and we've been doing that by having conversations every single week with the aforementioned folks that I just shared, and this week is no different because we actually have an incredible guest, someone actually that I really just met personally, but I've been following his work for a while - Frederick T. Joseph. Frederick is an award-winning marketing professional, activist, philanthropist, and author of an upcoming highly anticipated book "The Black Friend" with over 10 years of marketing experience, and a Forbes Under 30 list maker for Marketing and Advertising. He is also the sole creator of the largest GoFundMe campaign in history, the #BlackPantherChallenge, which ultimately generated over $43 million dollars in earned advertising and media for Disney and raised over $950K and allowed more than 75,000 children worldwide to see 'Black Panther’ for free. So I don't know if y'all remember, like, when the kids, you know, like, he was dancing on the [table], and he was like, "Ayyyyye." Like, that's part of that--you know, that was this person that we're about to talk to. Anyway, so he is also the creator of the largest individual COVID-19 support effort, the #RentRelief campaign, which has raised over $1 million dollars. Frederick has been honored as the 2018 Comic-Con Humanitarian of the Year award and a member of the 2018 Root 100 list of Most Influential African Americans. He was also a national surrogate for the Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders campaigns. Frederick consistently writes about marketing, culture, and politics for the Huffington Post, USA Today, NowThisNews, The Independent, amongst others, and is a current contributor at AdWeek. Fred, welcome to the show, man.Frederick: What's going on, man? It's a pleasure to be here, and I should've definitely sent you a shorter bio, but I appreciate you showing the love though.Zach: Nah, it's cool. I mean, you got, like, a short Iliad. I wanted to make sure I give it just due. Not a simple question - how are you doing these days?Frederick: Man... you know, life is what it is. I think that, you know, I'm Black in America. That's how I'm doing. How about you?Zach: Exactly. I think it's interesting too. I've had folks ask me how I'm doing. "I can't imagine how you feel. And I try to explain to folks, you know, the reality is I don't feel any better or worse than I do on most days, you know what I mean?Frederick: Yeah. I mean, that's the reality of it. I'm in the exact same position as you, man.Zach: You know what I mean? I'm Black in America. I'm conscious of the way that this country and this world is set up to be, largely against me even existing. So it's interesting though that we're in this point I think where we're seeing such massive uprisings, and white people are really leaning in. Like, I just saw--so we're recording this on July 26th, and so just last night I just saw protests in Portland, right, and they're, like, screaming "Black Lives Matter," and it's a lot of people out there, and it's a lot of people that are not us out there.Frederick: Yeah, I mean, I think that's interesting. Definitely in some of the whitest places in the country we're seeing that.Zach: Well, let's do this. Let's get into it, man. Why marketing? Why is marketing the space you chose to engage as a career? Like, I've seen what you're doing in the space, but I'm curious, like, what got you there.Frederick: Um, it was the only space that made sense. I was on the trajectory of becoming an attorney. I think that's, like, kind of, for a lot of Black families if you become an attorney, a doctor, a [?], so on and so forth, you've made it, but for me I was, you know, the first one to go to college really, and when I went I had all these passions and interests from music to writing to art, so on and so forth, and I was trying to actually figure out what could I incorporate all of my interests into, and I realized that marketing, when done well, is really just story-telling, right? And to be a great marketer you have to be multi-faceted. So it just kind of made sense to me.Zach: And to your point about being multi-faceted, as I read your bio, right, you have a lot of things going on. Like, talk to me about how that space lent itself into the book that you're working on.Frederick: Yeah. So that's been interesting because when you're a marketer--like, I'm of the firm belief that every single thing in this world is driven by marketing, driven by branding and advertising, right? Like, you know, whether it be Trump or Obama or some of the worst people in history, it was just a matter of how their story was told and how they branded themselves, right? And that's just the nature of how that works, you know? You go see a movie, you listen to an album, you buy food all based on how somebody was able to make you believe in it. So for me in terms of my book coming out, it's a really interesting thing because all I'm really doing in the book is trying to market to people who are young, like, as to why they should reassess race and, you know, essentially work towards being anti-racist, and now I'm partnering with my publisher to figure out the actual marketing campaign for "How do you make young people be anti-racist?" You know? [laughs] So yeah, it's been interesting.Zach: Let's talk about white supremacy and how it functions in marketing even now. When people talk about white supremacy, often times we think about KKK, burning crosses, hard R 'N' word, but can we talk a little bit about, like, the nuances of white supremacy and its function in, like, the space that you inhabit, which is largely marketing?Frederick: Yeah. So I'm actually happy that's something you want to talk about, because as a matter of fact that's what my book is about, right? People don't understand that white supremacy and racism are so nuanced they exist in every facet of what we do on a daily basis, from something as simple as an interaction on an elevator, right? Like, it's me getting in the elevator in my building where I pay my rent, and people assume that I'm a delivery person, though I've lived here for over a year. In the workplace, and specifically in marketing, I actually think is one of the industries in which racism and white supremacy are most prevalent because it dictates what we see and what we ingest, right, like, as humans. So often times, I mean, marketing as an industry and advertising are extremely white. I think the numbers, if I remember correctly, was, like, 75% white people. So what does that mean for what you end up seeing, right? It's like... let's take Black Panther as a really good example. When I looked at the marketing team for Black Panther, this, like, super pro-Black, afro-futuristic content, the entire marketing team that worked on it from Disney that was, like, on their website was white. [laughs] And while that did do very well obviously, it's like... how is it that we don't even get to craft how we story-tell around narratives, right? And that's the reality. So, like, even if you're watching something like the NBA, most of the ways in which the NBA is pitched to us as people is through a white lens, white gaze, which is why we see something like--right now the marketing team for the NBA said, "Hey, you know what we should do? We should put Black Lives Matter on the courts in the bubble, and we should also put Breonna Taylor and these things, these names, on jerseys," and that's all marketing, but there's never the actual substance of, like, "Hey, actually, maybe if we got some more Black people from different experiences in the room, someone might say, like, "Oh, well, what about making systemic change?" Like, "What about not doing something that's performative? What about us actually using our cache, our narrative, our platform, to actually make change?" Like, if I was in that room I would say, "Well, that's cool and all, but if we actually built our marketing around creating a program where we send scouts to HBCUs, right, and start actually recruiting Black talent from Black schools, which could create systemic change where more young Black people would go play at HBCUs, which puts more dollars in the Black community and brings more cache to those schools. Right? [both laugh]Zach: Right. It was interesting to your point, right. So I'm looking at it, right, and we can talk a little bit about, like, the memeification of Breonna Taylor, and I'd like to get your opinion on that, but when you see these things and, like, it seems like we like to get in this, like, awareness loop. Like, we just talk about awareness over and over and over. So, like, if we just talk about it long enough, things will magically change. But, like, it's interesting because, like, that approach has never shown itself useful in any other endeavor, and when you look at the government and how--like, when we talk about making systemic change in other ways we pass laws. We create policies. Right? Like, we hold trials. There are, like, tangible things that we know that we do to actually move the needle in a real way, and so what I've appreciated is I've been seeing, like, the postgame and, like, LeBron has talked about it and other NBA players have been like, "Look, I'm only talking about Breonna Taylor," which I think is--that's admirable, right, to a degree. Like, I'm not shading that at all, and what I'm looking for, to your point, is like, "Okay, now at what point do we, like, move to, again, tangible solutions?" You know what I mean?Frederick: Yeah. No, that's exactly it. Tangible solutions, systemic change, because as you said, you know, it's not even just--it's a memeification of Breonna Taylor and really a memeification of, like, Black bodies as a whole, right? And that's what I'm saying, right? Like, every day people are posting this witty ways of saying, "Oh, we should have justice for Breonna Taylor." Like, I saw yesterday it was, like, in alphabet soup. I'm like, "Uh..." It's extremely weird, and it would only happen with Black people to be quite frank. I mean, like, let's be real. Let's look at somebody like the case around JonBenet Ramsey, right, the little girl who went missing, right? There was never a singular moment where that was turned into a global pun, right, and they still were looking for that little girl. They did not stop looking, and I think they still have content that comes out about looking for. They reopened the case for, like, the fifth time I think, like, two years ago. You know, we are the only ones where our Black bodies, like, our Black existence is commodified and turned into entertainment and turned into ROI, right? Zach: Right. Like, there are financial reasons, right? It's part of the capitalistic system we live in. It literally pays to talk about Black Lives Matter right now, right? Like, it gives you returns to, like--if I put #BlackLivesMatter in my social media--and it's easy. It's relatively easy for me to do that compared to me really investigating and examining, again, my own organization's policies, practicies, procedures, and institutions that drive or support white supremacy, like, within my own organizational walls. And so then, like, I think about--so there have been some cities that have been painting roads Black Lives Matter and making streets called Black Lives Matter. I'm like, "Y'all's own police forces have open investigations. There's unsolved murders." Like, there's all types of things that are happening, and so it gets to the point where it's almost--not almost, like, it is just gaslighting, you know? 'Cause we're not taking this serious, and we're still somehow, even in this moment, sidestepping the very real problem of the brutalization of Black and brown people.Frederick: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And to the point of, you know, painting Black Lives Matter on things, so on and so forth... in every major city where Black people live there's a Malcolm X Boulevard, there's a Martin Luther King Way, there's a James Baldwin this and a bell hooks that, and those are actually, like, sadly some of the worst streets in the areas of all of those cities, right? So we've already seen that performative isn't actually doing anything, right? Like, we've absolutely seen that, but again, there is a return on investment. It is dollar-making for cities, football teams, individuals to put up something that is aligned with Black Lives Matter? Why? As is often said, Black people and our buying power is, you know, on par with some of the larger countries in the world. So let's just be real here.Zach: I mean, yeah, 100% I mean, we alluded to it a little bit earlier. You know that we're seeing federal and state police forces and harm and murder civilians en masse on camera. We wouldn't even really know about these things without social media. So, you know, you and I, a little bit of tea, we met through an influencer event hosted by Twitter, right? And I would love to hear more about your perspective on how the Twitters, Facebooks and Reddits of the world, the role that they play in protecting basic human dignity and freedoms and, like, what all they could and should be doing in this moment.Frederick: Yeah. Well, you know, one, I'm happy that you called that out because I think that we have gone from a moment or a period of time where these platforms, the Facebooks, the Reddits, the Twitters, are that, right, they're platforms. They're no longer platforms. They're actually worlds now, and that's what these companies wanted them to traject towards. They wanted them to traject towards small worlds where people exist on them, whether as their actual selves or their other selves, whatever, they exist on them in real time. They breathe on them. They sleep on them. They eat on them, right? And therefore you can also be lost on them and be lost because of them, and you can also be saved, right, and I think that we saw that case with Toyin, right? We saw that Toyin was someone who had existed on and off the platform, Twitter, for quite some time, someone who came on Twitter and sought help. Now, Twitter has built itself to have various tools and various rules around how they stifle or amplify certain voices and moments. In terms of stifling, you can say the 'N' word for instance and be suspended from Twitter. I've seen it happen. It's happened to me. But they don't have things in palce to actually help people, right? In our real world, right, you can't try to recreate the real world online for your own capitalistic gain but not have the tools or the resources to support the people who are existing on these spaces. So I think that is one issue that I've seen that these companies and these platforms could do a great deal around. You know, I know the role that these platforms play. I just struggle with what we should expect from them, because at the end of the day, you know, these things are owned by white men for the most part, and white men are gonna be a white men. And that's a long-winded answer, but--Zach: So I think my follow-up to that is, like, we know that Black people specifically, right--like, I could say BIPOC, but I want to say Black people specifically. We know that Black people really make social media what it is, right? Like, we are the engine and the spice and everything else that really makes social media dope, and so I guess my question is, like, do you think the reason why Black voices are promoted and have grown and kind of, like, been the influencer and shaker that we are, do you think that's because of capitalism? Do you think that the ecosystem would be the same without capitalism?Frederick: I don't, and that's because of the history of Black people globally, right? Like, every turn in our history, except for when we were left alone, which was long before most history books can date, we have been leveraged because of some type of capitalistic or imperialistic agenda, right? So right now we are [?], whether that be on Black Twitter or on Instagram or on Facebook, right? I think that the only one we probably don't have that cache on is probably, like, Reddit, 'cause white supremacy owns Reddit for the most part. Like, we are the reason the United States and every facet of it is the United States, from the good, the bad and the ugly, right? We are the reason that most of the world is the way that it is. We are the influencing, driving force behind music, art, just every single thing to do with culture, but we've never reaped any of the benefits of that. So I do think that if capitalism didn't exist though, I don't think that it would be the same. I do think that we'd be much happier in our own space doing the same things amongst each other, but in terms of the influence globally? No, I don't think so, but I don't know if our global influence anyway matters if we haven't been benefiting from it.Zach: I agree with that. Yeah, and I appreciate you answering the question, because I've been thinking about it. I appreciate the fact that we have the influence, but it's like... it gets increasingly exhausting to see us have all this influence just for it to get monetized by everybody else, you know what I mean?Frederick: Right. To the point of the Twitter conversation that you were mentioning, you know, I talked about a lot of things in that conversation, and I think one of the things I mentioned that was a real criticism of capitalism and platforms was when I said, you know, for instance #BlackPantherChallenge, I made a joke, like, "Oh, yeah, Twitter was touting it, but at events I wasn't even invited to." [?] me caring about that, wanting to go to events, as moreso a criticism of how we operate around Black lives and Black work, but in that, you know, hours later you had a Black person from Twitter attacking me saying that, like, I don't care about anything but being invited to parties or something like that.Zach: It's the principle though, and I think it's interesting that you bring that up because I had a colleague, you know, and I had been doing some work around--so, look, Living Corporate has been around for a second, so I do this work in, like, creating digital media, creating different types of thought leadership around what does it really mean to drive diversity, equity and inclusion programs, right? So I had a colleague who was like, "Yeah, you know, I've been taking this and presenting this at Such-and-such," and I'm like, "Wait, wait, wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I appreciate the fact that you've been taking it and it speaks to you, but if you're going to speak on work that you didn't create, you should at the very least let me know and give me an opportunity to speak to it myself since I'm the person who created it. And again, it's not about me getting the accolades or me getting paid per se, it's just respect. It's respect and courtesy for the people that, like, honor the creators, honor the people who did the work to lead something and give them the space. Like, don't pick and choose your own token representatives, and certainly don't center and place yourself as a representative. That's not cool. So yeah, that resonates with me, 'cause I think that nuance is often times lost in these moments, and I think that, for whatever reason, it can be hard for people to understand the principle of recognition and what real inclusion means, especially if it means that they have to, like, de-center themselves, you know what I mean?Frederick: Absolutely. It's something that I've had to also learn, right? Like, how do you step back to make sure that people are fully seen or give them the opportunity to be seen, right, if they want to, right? And I think that, again, we do it to ourselves. Like, we do it to other Black people. It's a conditioning thing, and it's absolutely rooted in white supremacy because, you know, white supremacy is at the center of every little thing wrong with society as a whole and always has been, right? Zach: Right. It's a scarcity mindset, man. It's like, you know, I think it's a core function of capitalism as well. It's not only production but consumption too. So it's like, "I gotta just take, take, take, and if I'm not the one taking it, then it's not real," or "If I'm giving it away, that's a loss to me." But, like, that's not an abundance mindset. It's literally the opposite of that.Frederick: Yeah. I mean, that's exactly it. And it's funny, 'cause I'm working on something right now, a second book called Black Under Trump, and, you know, that proposal went out, and I've noticed that you can tell a lot about engagements online. Like, you can tell a lot about who engages with you and how people engage and who shares what and who sees what, because--you know, you've looked at metrics before. You see impressions versus actual engagement, and one of the things that I notice is when I'm talking about my wins, right, when I'm talking about--my first book, when I announced that everyone was like, "Oh, congrats! This, that and the third!" And I'm like, "Well, I'm working on a second and third," and it's kind of like everybody was like, "Oh, no, to hell with that. You've had yours," right? And I'm like, "Oh, where did everybody go?" Right? And I realize--you know, 'cause most of my followers are Black people and people of color, I'm like, "Oh, it's because people think that there can only be one," right? This Highlander idea, the scarcity mindset.Zach: It's scary because it's like, if you would just pause and think about how little content there is out there that really centers and amplifies us, you would not be so--I mean, I hope you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss or, like, fight over crumbs. Like, we take up so little of the narrative, right, we take up so little of the space when it comes to our perspectives, our lived experience, our frustrations, our passions, our joys. I want to pivot that into my next question, which is what role do you imagine independent Black and brown media will take in this new decade, right? So, like, do you think it's gonna increase? Do you think it's gonna decrease? Do you think it's gonna stay the same? And why?Frederick: Now, do you mean media in the traditional sense or media as in, like, if you have a certain following you're also considered media.Zach: That's a good question. I'm thinking media more in the traditional sense, so thinking about platforms. But let's also extend it out to individuals, 'cause I do think that that's gonna continue to be a budding space.Frederick: You know, it's interesting because one of the things that I've learned--I think this year, in 2020, I've become a lot more radical, especially as I was on the campaign trail for these different presidential candidates, and in this year I've realized how different Black people are, right? I've always said Blackness is not a monolith, and I've always meant it, but I just never realized how big that spectrum was, because you have Black people who are from where I'm from--you know, I'm from the projects in Yonkers, New York, and I come from nothing, and I'm happy to have anything that I have now, and that is a lot different from a Black person who is fourth-generation, you know, college and fourth-generation [?], you know, Kappa Alpha Psi, so on and so forth, and in that what I'm struggling with now is when I think of Blackness in terms of, like, that question, right, like, "What role does Black media play?" Like, to be honest, I don't know because I don't know what type of Black people are at these different places, right? I don't know. Like, when I look at The Root, I know some of the people there, and there's a lot of them who, like, I deeply respect, and then there's also some of them I've met and I'm like, "Oh, wow. Oh, okay." Or there's Black outlets like Shade Room, and I'm like, "Oh, wow." You know? So I think that because of that spectrum, because of us not being a monolith, I deeply struggle with knowing what our place should be because sometimes I think some of us should have less of a place on the forefront, to be frank, and that means, like, some of our own platforms that we have currently.Zach: Yes. Well, expound upon that a little bit.Frederick: So I'll just be pretty direct. I think that there are groups, platforms, media outlets, so on and so forth, even individuals, who are highly platformed, highly powerful, and I hope every single day that in the next 10 years that their place amongst the epicenter of Blackness and visible Blackness is reduced, frankly. I hope that if any outlets are getting pushed, anyone, platform, so on and so forth, I hope that it's people with a lens to the more--I wouldn't even call it radical, but the more progressive, inclusive, liberating front.Zach: You know, it's interesting. I've talked about Living Corporate as a platform, and I would say, like, 99.9% of the people are like, "Oh, that's dope," because I come from a similar background as you, right? Like, I'm first-generation in a few different ways, and I'm not, like you said, fourth-generation college and whatever. Like, that's just not my story. That's not my background. My people came up poor, you know what I mean? But then I have met folks whose parents were, you know, a little elitist, and I think about the fact that there's--it's interesting how those voices end up being the representation in, like, major platforms for everybody, you know what I mean?Frederick: Absolutely.Zach: And that's something we don't talk about a lot, like, out loud, but it's true. So you see these people and they're like, "Man, that's a weird take," and I'm not saying that's your perspective, but it's certainly not mine or anybody's in the spaces that I move around in. Again, I am one person. But when I think about, like, kind of how white supremacy works in that way too, how it kind of will gravitate to these Black voices that are not really radical or that are not progressive, who are not much more politically left than they are, or just focused on Black liberation, and it's interesting how, like, you end up kind of just switching faces at the top, but you're not really focused on, like, dismantling anything, you know what I mean?Frederick: Right. White supremacy gravitates towards Black people who will do just enough to make white supremacy to feel like it's coming down when it's actually not. 100%. And that becomes very, like, confusing for me, and it's something that, again, this year I have struggled deeply with. You know, you and I follow each other and we see the things we say and have worked on. I love my people, and I do everything that I can for my people, you know, to exhaustion, and even that night at the Twitter thing or whatever, like, it broke my heart. The next day was Juneteenth, and I cried at one point because I was just like, "I can't believe my own people view me in this way and are doing this to me," right? And that's how I feel on a regular basis, whether it be BlackPantherChallenge or CaptainMarvelChallenge or whatever it is. I often find that my lens being liberation-focused and being very attuned to the movements of white supremacy ends up ostracizing me, and the only people who I end up getting support from are either really radical Black people or, like, to be honest with you white people, and that makes me really, really sad. Even my book cover reveal next week and my pre-order launch, I already know in the back of my head, like, "Oh, I don't think Black people are gonna buy my book." I don't think Black people are gonna support me because, like, I've never really seen Black people support me before. And that's not our fault, that's white supremacy, but it hurts.Zach: Right, 100%. Before we get up out of here, any parting words or shout-outs as we think about where we're at, where we've yet to really arrive to? I think about the fact that we're recording this, like I said, in late July. We have one of the most consequential elections in our lifetimes during a very unique season, like, a weird confluence of events between one of the worst economic crises that we've had for almost 100 years, a global pandemic, and global protests focused on anti-racism. I mean, like, what are some things you'd like to just leave the folks with?Frederick: Well, I think the first thing is something that you said that was a very powerful quote when you and I were talking some weeks ago, when you said, you know, "Black bodies have to be worth something," right? That sat with me and that's real, and it's deep, because I don't think that people understand sometimes that we could pile up the Black bodies lost to the Moon, right, while we've been in this fight for resistance and justice since we were brought over to these shores, right? Another thing is when people are upholding certain things, you're only upholding things that are founded on the bones that you think that they're not, right? You know, people are talking about, "Oh, I'm gonna get this role as VP of this company." Yeah, well, I mean, your ancestor's bones are in those walls, so let's just be real about this, right? You're not actually getting anything that you didn't already die for a million times. So that being said, I guess the last thing I'll leave people with is stop settling. Stop settling for the gaslighting that America has put us through in thinking that not being oppressed in some ways makes up for still being oppressed in others, right? Like, Donald Trump is a symptom of a much larger condition, and getting him out of office, whether it was gonna be Bernie, Elizabeth, or Biden or whoever else, we are still left with those same conditions, so unless we are going to work on the conditions and how we got here we will end up with another Trump in our children's lifetimes or our children's children's lifetimes, and that's the reality of the moment that we're in. Stop settling.Zach: I love it. Frederick, man, I appreciate you taking the time to be on Living Corporate. Y'all know what we're doing, right? This has been another episode of Living Corporate. We have conversations like this every single week - on Tuesdays, just a reminder, 'cause for those who this is their first time listening, every single Tuesday we have conversations like this, one-on-one deep dives with an incredible Black or brown person or an aspirational ally, and then on Thursdays we have Tristan's Tips. Those are, like, quick career tips, and then on Saturdays we either have an extended career conversation with Latesha Byrd or we have See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger when we talk with a Black or brown person about the technical aspects of their job so that y'all can understand that we exist all over corporate America and we actually operate and do very well when we are given opportunities or we create opportunities for ourselves. Check us out. We're all over Beyonce's internet. Living-corporate, or just type in Living Corporate. We'll pop up, okay? We're on all the browsers. Make sure you share this with your friends. Make sure you check out the links in the show notes. Preorder Frederick Joseph's book and check out his website. Until next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach speaks with Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Nikole Hannah-Jones about the state-sanctioned shooting of Jacob Blake, her personal career journey from the high school newspaper to The New York Times, the opposition she's experienced as director of The 1619 Project, and so much more. Click the links in the show notes to find out more about Nikole and The 1619 Project! Connect with Nikole on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.Check out her personal website. Find out more about The 1619 Project by clicking here.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? This is Zach with Living Corporate, and yo... look, so every week we have a great guest, and I say this every time, but, like, don't front--who else but us? Like, we drop gems on Living Corporate, right, for the free. Like, y'all don't even pay nothing for this, right? Like, we just be givin' it to y'all weekly, and, you know, I mean, I'm smiling despite the pain I'm feeling, the frustration--you know, for those who follow me on LinkedIn or whatever, like, I had to let some things go 'cause I was just upset. I still have some stuff to say, but I'ma wait on it. I'ma wait on it for a couple more months, but that day is soon coming. But anyway, that's a story for another time. [laughs] Look, even with all the pain and frustration that's going on right now with the continuous brutalization of Black bodies in both white America at large and corporate America specifically, their just slough-footed shuffle in not really addressing systemic inequity. I'm excited. I'm excited about the guest that we were able to have, that was able to grace our platform, our flagship show Living Corporate today, and the guest we have is Nikole Hannah-Jones. Now, look, I'm not gonna go into some long biography of Nikole Hannah-Jones, also known as Ida Bae Wells, is one of those most prolific writers of our time. Shout-out to Black women. She holds it down. She advocates and speaks to the reality and lived experience, the historicity, of our struggle, and she's one of the people. She comes from--you'll hear in the interview, but she comes from a similar just, like, humble background that I do and doesn't tolerate disrespect similar to how I don't tolerate disrespect, so we just vibe on a certain level. I appreciated our conversation. The next thing you're gonna hear is the discussion, the interview, that I had with Ms. Hannah-Jones. Make sure that you listen to the whole thing, make sure that you check out the show notes, and we'll catch y'all next time. Peace.Zach: Nikole, welcome to the show. To say this is an honor would be an understatement, and I recognize, especially today, this is a loaded question, but how are you?Nikole: Hm. Thanks for having me on the show and for your persistence. You know, I'm fine. This is a hard time to be in. It's always a hard time to be Black in this country, and I am more blessed than most, so I'm just trying to maintain perspective.Zach: Yeah. With that in mind, I think I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about the state-sanctioned shooting of Jacob Blake. Of course I have some questions about your work specifically and The 1619 Project, but I'd like to get your perspective on just the historically cyclical nature of violence against Black bodies and, like, in this moment, what if anything do you think can happen to break this centuries-long pattern?Nikole: You know, a few months ago I was feeling a tinge of something that is very unusual for me, which was a slight tinge of hope, and that is gone, and there's a reason I don't often feel it. So I just looked at some data, and despite months of protests, despite all of the back to back media coverage following George Floyd, despite corporations having a so-called "come to Jesus" moment, the stats on police-involved killings have not changed. We are seeing just as many people killed by police in the first half of this year as we saw last year, and I don't know what can force this country to change practices that have been 400 years in the making. In this moment where we know everyone is recording, where there's been months of protests against police violence, that an officer would, in the public view, grab a man who was not fighting him whatsoever and shoot him in the back seven times, it's extremely discouraging, because you would think--at least in this moment--there would be more care and more fear of consequences of treating Black people like they're still in slavery and like their lives don't matter, but we're not seeing that, and it's hard.Zach: Yeah. You know, I think about the fact that--I'm a fairly new father myself, so I have a 5-month old daughter, and I think about the fact that he was shot seven times in the back in front of his three kids in his car, and I was holding my daughter at the time--or rather I was splitting time, so I was cooking and I was feeding my daughter and I just so happened to look at my phone and see that, and then just, you know, I looked at Emory and I just started crying, 'cause I was just, like, this is--just the inhumanity of it... anyway, I'm really curious as we continue forward because I think this project and the work that you do, that you continue to do--thank you for your work, by the way, bless you for that--is just highlighting how inhumanely we've been treating, 'cause there's no way that you just treat human beings like this. And, you know, speaking of the work, I've read stories about editorial bias and how Black journalists will stop submitting certain stories that center Black people because they keep getting shot down or any, you know, Black or brown people. Your work beautifully and tragically captures our stories and experiences, and I'm curious what the internal journey has been like for you to find your voice, and then how long it took before your pitched stories started getting greenlit by different editorial powers that be?Nikole: Yeah, so I started writing about Black people as a high school journalist. That's why I joined my high school newspaper. I had a column called "From the African Perspective," and I joined my high school newspaper because--if your listeners know my story at all, they'll know I was bused into white schools as part of a voluntary desegregation order starting in the second grade, and as a high school student at a predominantly white high school where most of the Black kids were bused from the Black side of town, I knew even then that we were being left out of the story and the power of you shaping the narratives for your own communities, and the only reason I ever wanted to be a journalist was to write about Black folks, period. I was interested--I'm a news junkie in general, I'm interested in the news, I've always read the news, I used to read the paper with my father--I wanted to be a journalist to write about Black folks, and there were--when I started my career I had an excellent editor who encouraged me and supported me in wanting to write. I was an education reporter and I was writing a lot about school segregation and school inequality and disparate discipline that Black students were facing, and I was encouraged to do that. My next job was not the case, and I was penalized and punished for writing about Black stories or people of color in general and was told really that it was showing my bias, that these stories were not reflective of the readership of the newspaper, and had story idea after story idea killed. And this was during the historic Obama run for the presidency, so if you can't be encouraged to write about race when the first Black man has a chance to be president, when would be the right time? And I remember I would pitch these stories and my editors would say, "No, that's not a story," and then I'd see a story almost just like what I had pitched run in The New York Times and I'd be like, "Okay, it's not that I don't have good ideas, it's that they're not interested in this coverage," and I nearly left journalism. I was stuck. This was at a time when the journalism industry was in a death spiral. Newspapers were laying off all over the country, and so there wasn't another job to be had. Like, if you had a job you'd better keep it, and I was so depressed because that's what I got into journalism to do, and I considered leaving the industry, and the only reason I didn't leave the industry is because I just couldn't think of anything else I wanted to do with my life. I'd wanted to be a journalist since I was in high school and really felt journalism was my mission. Luckily I was rescued when I was recruited to come to ProPublica, and I remember when Steve Engelberg, who's the editor of ProPublica, asked me to interview and then ultimately offered me the job, I had a very honest conversation with him and I was like, "If I cannot tell these stories, I don't want to come. Like, I'm not gonna jump from this job to another job where I'm punished for wanting to write about race." He assured me that I wouldn't be, and I wasn't, and so ProPublica was really the place where I was able to develop the style of writing that I've become known for.Zach: To your point, like, with ProPublica and now, you know, the New York Times, I'm curious to know what it's like to write and work with an institution that publishes pieces and projects like The 1619 Project but then also has puff pieces about Trump supporters and then editorial pieces like Tom Cotton's. Like, I'm curious, is there any duality there that you have to straddle or frustrations that you have to manage? Nikole: Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming that's a rhetorical question because of course, right? [laughs] I mean, this is the nature of Black folks working in any white institution. It is the reality of Black people in America. There's always a duality, and yes, you can work at a place that simultaneously will support with every resource a project like The 1619 Project and run the Tom Cotton editorial, and I think we all, as Black and brown and Asian and indigenous people in these white spaces, struggle with trying to produce the work that you think is important and necessary because of the platform. I could certainly work elsewhere, but there's no megaphone like The New York Times. So understanding that platform does something for the work that you're trying to do, but also staying true to who you are and the work you're trying to do and fighting those internal battles to try to bring the actual institution in line with the work that you do. So I have, you know, my outward work that gets published, and then I have my inward work, which is working with other folks to try to push the institution to be better.Zach: And what I find so intriguing about that is, like, it's activism in two fronts, right? Like, you have what everyone sees, and then you have the work that you're doing to push systemic change internally. Can we talk a little bit about portions of white academia's response to The 1619 Project? Like, to an extent I would imagine negativity from members of the GOP as ignorant and dumb and doofy and goofy as they are don't shock you, but has any of it caught you off-guard? Nikole: Yes, of course. So I fully expected that conservatives would not be pleased with The 1619 Project, and I also fully expected--because I studied history for a long time and I understand the field of historiography--that there would be historians that didn't agree with all of our framing or who would quibble with "Why would they put this in? Why did they not put this in? Why did they focus on this and not that?" That was all expected. What I didn't expect was that there would really be an orchestrated campaign, a small group of historians, to not just say, "We wouldn't have done it that way," but to actually try to discredit the project. Because these historians, some of them, are highly respected and regarded, I mean, I've read their work myself, it lended a credibility and really gave those who didn't have good faith criticism of the project, who just didn't want the project to exist, it gave them the meat that they needed, and that's then really disappointing and disconcerting, because the truth is not one, and literally not one, of that small number of historians who opposed the project has never contacted me, ever. They've never said, "Hey, I think you've got this fact wrong," or "Hey, maybe you should change this," which is what you do in a normal circumstance if you feel a reporter has misrepresented something or not got something right. You contact that reporter and ask for that correction. I've never to this day received a single contact, and when the group of five historians who submitted a letter to The New York Times against the project, they included people on that email who weren't even involved--men on that email who weren't even involved with the project, but not me. So I think that speaks to motivations, is what I'll say.Zach: So I was gonna say--and, you know, continually we talk about just the role that Black women play in, like, you know, saving everybody and historically not having the advocacy and support that they need, and to your point around just, like, the misogyny of and presumption that, you know, you're being excluded in your project, and then on top of that being, like, somehow simultaneously being attacked and erased at the same time, right? Like, that's--and my question following up is I would imagine... so first of all, I think, for me, like, in this moment, Nikole, what I've been thinking through and coming to peace with is that it's not that people don't understand or don't see it. A lot of them just don't care, right? So for me, as opposed--I used to get into this thing around, like, trying to educate folks some years ago, and I think I'm just past that, right? I'm curious, like, how do you manage the emotional labor of folks being intentionally obtuse, misogynistic, of course racist. Like, you're so much in the spotlight, and as you continue to flex and grow folks get madder, and so I'm curious as to, like, what does your process look like as someone who is so actively in the forefront as a voice in this moment to take care of yourself.Nikole: Yeah. [lightly] Who the hell knows? I think that I'm a human being, and some days I have dealt with it better than others. Some days I've dealt with it in ways that I'm proud of and some days I've dealt with it in ways that I'm not. People forget, you know--and it's a good problem to have in some ways, but when the bigger your platform gets, people think that somehow you don't care anymore about what people say or how people try to treat and attack your work or you personally, but that's not true. I'm just a girl from Waterloo and never expected anybody would ever know my name. I just wanted to be a reporter, and to--and I think that because of that I also don't deal with disrespect in the way that people who come, I think, from more privilege or don't come from, like, such a scrappy background, like, things roll off their back in a way that they don't for me. Respect means a lot to me, and so I fight back, and I also understand that part of the kind of, like, vitriol that I get and my work gets is because someone like me should not be in the position that I'm in. Not just that I'm Black and a woman, though that's a huge part of it, but I'm also a Black woman who presents in a very specific way. I don't look the part that they think I should look. I don't talk the way they think I should talk. I don't defer the way that they think I should defer. And all of these are intentional decisions, right? I'm not a stupid woman. I know how I'm "supposed to" present and I refuse to, and so I understand that it's all of that, and, you know, I think what I try to internalize is the venom of your enemies speaks to the importance of your work, and if this work wasn't meaningful, if there wasn't some sense of fear or consternation about what this work could do, they wouldn't care about me and they wouldn't talk about me and they wouldn't write about me, and I have to always remind myself of that, that I'm doing this work for a mission. This is where it's helpful, you know, to have--Ida B. Wells is my spiritual godmother. Nothing that they could throw at me even comes close to what she had to deal with or even what my own grandmother had to deal with or my own father had to deal with, so I can deal with any of it.Zach: So, you know, we're gonna talk about my wife in a moment--and it's gonna make sense in a second--but when that series, that piece came out really seeking to discredit and undermine The 1619 Project and I looked at those names--because I have a network of academics as well, and so a lot of the people that were--well, some of the people rather that were in that group folks in my network knew personally and, like, really highly regarded, and I really looked at it and I said, "Wow. Nikole, this is a lot of power." Like, she has this much power that all these well-to-do white folks got together in a little Google document and started typing away to create, to do all this work, and that was my very first response was like, "Wow. This further lets me know that this is incredibly powerful and that she is seen as a threat to the institutions that be." So that's incredible. Thank you. Kind of continuing about your work, right, it's focused on segregation and its impact on marginalized populations. The New York Times recently helped produce Nice White Parents, which highlights a lot of the historic and present resistance to meaningful integration. That also reminds me of the interview you had on This American Life sometime ago. After your years of research, I have two questions, like, kind of back to back. One, does it seem like meaningful integration is possible, and then two, do you believe that integration is necessary to achieve equity?Nikole: Hm. So Nice White Parents is excellent, and Chana Joffe-Walt is the producer I worked with on my This American Life piece on Michael Brown's school district. What I love about it is that she--I mean, I've always said white parents are the most powerful force in any school district, whether they're in those schools or not, and that they often hold school districts hostage. School districts simply won't do certain things because they are so afraid of losing white parents, and I haven't seen anything that has spent that much time really exposing the way that that power operates with white parents who are supposed to be on your side. So if your listeners have not heard that podcast, they definitely should. And I saw some folks who were like, "I don't know if I want to listen to that podcast because I just can't stand to hear another white person who's shocked that racism exists." Chana is not naive, and there's no sense of naivety like, "Oh, my God. I can't believe these white parents are doing this." It's really like, "This is how we operate, and I'm going to expose it." So it's great. To answer your question, so possible and probable of course are two different things. Do I think meaningful integration is possible? Of course it's possible. We've rarely seen it, but it is possible. But in order for it to be possible it has to be--like Baldwin said, like, white people have to give up whiteness, and we also have to understand how much resources [?], everything from amongst private citizens, businesses, local government, state government and federal government went into creating the school inequality, still maintains the school inequality, and then if you're going to undo that and create a truly equitable, integrated school system, you have to apply equal amounts of power and resources, and we won't, right? The reason all of that power and influence was applied was because it was to the benefit of those who hold the power, and they're not going to apply the equal amount of resources in a way that doesn't benefit their power. So possible? Yes. Probable? Of course not. In terms of is it necessary? So in a practical sense absolutely. Nearly every school integration lawsuit that gets filed by Black parents or on behalf of Black parents initially begins as a simple lawsuit about equity and resources. You never see large-scale that Black people are just dying to have their kids in majority white schools, and so these lawsuits typically begin by saying, "Our schools are underfunded. They are not well-resourced, and we are suing because we just want the same resources in our schools as you allot for white schools," and then they begin that way and then they end with a push for integration as parents come to realize that they will never get those resources without white kids, and that's just true. It holds true in every region of the country. It holds true in rural areas, suburban, urban. It doesn't matter. In a country where we still have to assert that Black lives matter, which is really Black lives matter too, we know that the whole point of the separation is to deprive Black kids of resources and equality. The whole point of the separation is to ensure white parents get an inordinate amount of resources, and we just have never shown willingness to ensure that Black kids, and particularly poor Black kids, get the same quality of resources, and integration is the means to do that. There are things that we accept for Black kids that you can't imagine ever accepting for white kids, period, and we don't. So I wish that it wasn't necessary, but we've shown no other way that we're willing to treat Black kids the same as white kids unless they're in the same classrooms, and even then they're not treated the same.Zach: Right, and that leads into my next question. So I mentioned my wife Candis earlier. She's an educator teaching high school, and her district is starting remote. I know you've addressed concerns about the feasibility and effectiveness of remote learning during this time. As both a parent and a journalist who has specialized in equity and in education, what advice do you have for educators who want to provide a quality education from home to their students right now and what considerations do you think they should be keeping in mind?Nikole: God, this is so hard, and the public conversation has tried to make this simple. Zach: Really binary, yeah.Nikole: Yeah. It's either "open the schools" or "it's not safe, we can't open the schools," and either you care about kids' education and the inequality or you want teachers to die, right? This is the hardest thing, because one, we already have these structural inequalities that we have long known existed that are clearly being exacerbated, and there's no great answer. I know how much I struggled as a parent who is highly educated, who has a ton of resources, whose daughter has her own computer, to really implement online learning and the early data and research on the effects, particularly on Black kids, are absolutely devastating, and Black kids have the least wiggle room. They're already the furthest behind, so they have the most to lose. So I don't know what the answers are. I think where my frustration has come is you cannot, as educators, simultaneously say, "It's not safe for us to open schools at all, but I also don't want to be forced to do live instruction." You can't do both of those things. There's got to be compromise, and I think every parent has a newfound understanding for how hard teachers' jobs are as we've had to try to play a bit of that role in our own households, but we're all struggling to adapt to online. I didn't expect that I would be working from home either and having my child set off the fire alarm while I'm giving a talk, which has happened, but we have to really think about what this is going to mean for our kids in school districts that suffered to get proper funding for those kids before the pandemic and now are going to be dealing with slashed budgets, which I guess is my really long way of saying I don't know what the answers are, but I can tell you what is planned right now is gonna be devastating for low income Black and brown kids, and we have shown--I mean, look at the Democratic Convention and the Republican Convention. Nobody's even talking about "What are we gonna do for these kids?" No one's talking about "Okay, we need a massive funding package to ensure that these kids are going to be able to catch up once this is all over, to ensure they have technology, to ensure the internet is gonna be connected, high speed, to their homes." Like, there's no one even talking about this, and I know that what's gonna happen is ultimately we're just gonna have to--those kids are just going to have to deal with it, and they're gonna deal with it by falling further and further behind and being even more disadvantaged after this than they were before.Zach: So, you know, you spoke on something which leads me to my last question. It does seem, both the RNC--well, the DNC for sure from my perspective and as you listen to other folks, like, largely focused on this imaginary or not-so-imaginary white conservative in the quote-unquote middle of America who is debating voting for Donald Trump or not, and it reminds me of--kind of going back to the initial question I had around just the cyclical nature of history--a little while ago we had Dr. Jason Johnson on as a guest, and we talked about that, like, just how history repeats itself, and as we prepare for one of the most consequential elections of our lifetime, do you believe America is truly in a place to not re-elect Donald Trump?Nikole: In a fair election? Yes, but yeah... who knows if we're gonna have a fair election? It does not bode well, but yes, I think in a fair election, yes.Zach: Okay. Mrs. Hannah-Jones, this was phenomenal. Thank you so much for your time.Nikole: Thank you for your persistence, and thanks for having me on the show.Zach: No, God bless. Goodbye.Nikole: All right, bye.Zach: All right, y'all. That was--I mean, my gosh, y'all know what this is. Every single week we're having incredible guests, and this one was, like I said at the top, an honor, a privilege. Really excited. Make sure y'all check us out. Check out all the links in the show notes. Learn more about Nikole Hannah-Jones if you're not familiar, if you've been living under a rock. But the thing about it is, when it comes to Black media, even sometimes Black media posted on huge platforms like The New York Times, we miss it, so I want to make sure y'all check all that out. Make sure y'all check out Nice White Parents. This is not even an ad. I just got love for Nice White Parents. Shout-out to the team over there. And 'til next time, y'all, this has been Zach. Peace.

Zach chats with Kanika Tolver, founder and CEO of Career Rehab LLC and author of Career Rehab: Rebuild Your Personal Brand and Rethink the Way You Work, on this special Saturday episode themed around rehabbing your career. A senior project manager with the U.S. Department of the Treasury, Kanika is no ordinary "social-preneur" - she's a rebel entrepreneur and certified professional coach, a serial innovator who's fueled by an extraordinary commitment to social change and helping others create their own "epic lives." True to her book's name, she outlines the importance of rebuilding your personal brand and rethinking the way you work, and she lists some of the telltale signs she experienced when she realized she needed to undergo a career rehab of her own.Find out more about "Career Rehab: Rebuild Your Personal Brand and Rethink the Way You Work" on Amazon.Connect with Kanika on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.Check out her personal website.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, man, y'all know what it is. We're coming to y'all with real, authentic conversations every single week. So we're having these conversations talking about that real real, okay? We're having conversations that center underrepresnted, marginalized, underestimated, oppressed voices, experiences and lived identities in the workplace, and today is no different, man. We have a great guest. Her name is Kanika Tolver. Kanika Tolver is no ordinary socialpreneur. She's a highly decorated information technology federal government professional, rebel entrepreneur and certified professional coach and a serial innovator who's fueled by an extraordinary commitment to social change and helping others create their own epic lives, not to mention she's the CEO and founder of Career Rehab in Washington, D.C. Career Rehab focuses on assisting career transitions and transformations for students, professionals and retirees. Her company provides career coaching programs, events, webinars, and digital resources to help people reach their goals. She's the acclaimed author of Career Rehab: Rebuild Your Professional Brand and Rethink the Way You Work. In that book and in the conversation today we're going to be talking about, amongst a wide array of things, what's holding you back from taking the next step in your career. She's been featured on CNN, CNBC, CBS Radio, Yahoo, Glassdoor, Black Enterprise, Entrepreneur, The Washington Post--she's been all over the place, you know what I'm saying? So without further ado, welcome, Kanika. What's going on, now?Kanika: What's going on?Zach: All right, so look, I read the bio, but let's talk about, like, the why behind the career coaching and things that you do and really how you transitioned from tech and the public sector and, like, this social entrepreneur work that you're doing now. Like, how did that come together?Kanika: It came together because I was just really at a place where I felt alone at work, and I felt like, you know, I was growing professionally and I was making a lot of money, but I really felt like I wasn't being my true, authentic self, and I really wanted to help people. Like, I wanted to help people get to the places that I was able to reach in my career, and not having a lot of support at work just kind of--you know, my passion was doing career coaching and helping people with resumes and stuff like that, so that's kind of how I moved into the career development space. Zach: So then let's talk about, like, what were some of the key differences as you transitioned from working in the public sector, doing tech work to now going into personal career coaching? Kanika: I mean, I still work in the technology industry for the federal government, so I still have my day job as a federal government employee, but what it kind of looks like as far as being an entrepreneur and having a full-time job, it's pretty much me kind of been just building my career coaching clientele over the last three to four years. So I started off as a resume writer. I was helping people get a lot of good federal government job, a lot of good, high-paying tech jobs 'cause I was already in the industry, so I kind of started to do that and I started to kind of market myself online, and then I kind of transitioned into wanting a book deal and wanting to be an author and wanting to showcase a lot of the clients that had success with me in my book, but also I wanted to make sure that I was telling a true story of, you know, how my career life has gone for the past 10 years. I've had my own personal challenges. So that's where Career Rehab kind of came into play, 'cause I felt like we all need career innovations. You know, we all need to take our career to the next level in some way, so. Zach: You're absolutely right. I also think it's easy--when you consider, like, the history of America and, like, progress for Black and brown folks in the workplace, of course Black and brown people had jobs in corporate-like settings before the '60s, but when you talk about that, like, real influx, we really haven't been largely represented but for some less than, like, 50 something odd years, and we've only had all of our rights on paper--on paper--since, like, 1965, so... when you think about that, like, you and I, we're like the first generation of folks born with all of our rights--or we're the second generation. It gets kind of hairy, right, 'cause you think about, like, really Gen X, they're the first generation of people who were coming into the professional space with all of their rights on paper, and even still today, right, there are still folks who are, you know, 30 or in their late 20s who are first-generation professionals, folks who graduated from college. So when you think about, like, career rehab, the concept of career rehab or just needing to, like, really assess where you're at and what you're doing, those things--that's a novel concept for a lot of people who really just started getting into this space, you know what I mean?Kanika: I agree. I think me being more of a millennial, I think the Gen X'ers, they were the ones that really set the tone for, you know, helping to establish good--I would say the baby boomers established work ethic, right, being loyal to jobs. That's my parents' generation, and then you have the Gen X'ers who they started to get educated, they started to get jobs, but the millennials I think are the game-changing generation because we wanted more than just the education and the job. We want passionate work. We want work that matters. We want people to know our worth, and I think that Gen X'ers were a little bit more like "I'ma just do what I'm told to do and this is my job, I got it, I got my papers, I got my college degree, I got my education," but they didn't really rock the boat the way millennials and the newer generations are rocking the boat within the workplace. Zach: No, I agree with that. I think it's interesting because when you look at, like, the research that continues to come out, and then you look at social media that continues to, like, really be a game changer in terms of democratizing information and making things just really accessible, when you talk about just the reality of inequity, right, when you talk about, like, from pay inequity to opportunities to promote and rise within the ranks, to hiring and, like, the exclusivity of some of these social circles and how a lot of even these technology pipelines and things like that are really closed off. I do believe that we're in a different generation now than we were, you know, 15 or 20 years ago where we just didn't--people knew, but now we know we know, you know what I mean?Kanika: Right, yep.Zach: So when you talk about, like, career rehab and rebuilding your personal brand and rethinking the way you work, like, can we talk about some of the core tenets of that? Like, what does that mean, and where were you in your career that made you say, "I need a rehab?" Like, what were some of the telltale signs that you needed to rehab? Kanika: So rebuilding your personal brand was kind of, like, for me at a point where I was leaving my good federal government job to go into private sector, and I was scared. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. Like, I've been in the federal government space. This is comfortable," and I went to go work for a company by the name of Deloitte. I didn't know anything about the company, so I had to rebuild my personal brand as far as my resume and my LinkedIn profile to be able to talk the talk of private sector, because the government talks totally different than private sector. So that was a time where I was really going through a transition of being unhappy in my government job, and I was like, you know, "I have to rebrand myself if I'm gonna be able to get into a very innovative company. I'm gonna have to shift the way my brand has been looking as far as my resume and as far as, like, my LinkedIn profile." So that was kind of how I started to shift my mindset about how I thought about personal branding, because in government you just don't think about personal branding like that, right? You think about "This is a good government job, and I worked for this, and I'ma be here for 30 years," and my family and my aunties and my mom, everybody pretty much around me, was like, "Get a good government job," and I'm like, "This is not even really necessarily me, but I'm gonna do it." So that's kind of the shift that happened in my personal career.Zach: So let's continue to talk about this. I'm trying to understand when we talk about rethinking what it is you need or really what you want out of your career, like, what would you say are some of the biggest kind of, like, traps or patterns in your coachees that you see that lets you know that they need to be coached or that they need some help?Kanika: Rethinking the way that you work is a career mindset shift, because so often we don't really focus in on talking about, like, getting paid now, getting the money, power and respect. That's one of the things I coach people on, is it's not just about getting the job offer, it's about getting the money, power and respect, and the power and respect comes into play when you become a subject matter expert. You have the power and respect to be marketable. I think a lot of times in our community of people of color we just get so validated by "Oh, I'ma get this, like, nice-paying job," that we still don't get the power and respect at work, so that's a mindset shift. Another mindset shift that I see, that I have even applied to myself and even applied to my coaching clients, is things like "commute's worth the coins." It's okay to have a realistic commute. It's okay to ask for remote options from home. I think we so often are scared to ask for the work-life balance component of things in the workplace, and it has made us feel like we kind of, like, have a slavery mentality towards the job instead of the job offering us the things that we need in order to have balance.Zach: Yeah, and I think that also comes though from, like, a very real fear of loss, right? Like, you know, the system that we live in today, you need money to survive, and if you have people who maybe they've interviewed at fifty 'leven jobs and this is finally the job that said yes, it's hard to then, if you see you making those requests as a risk to keeping your job and then by relation keeping your lights on, you know, it's tough, right? So it's kind of like, you know, when you talk about that self-assessment to understand how to ask and then even facing those fears of asking. Like, what does it look like for the people that you talk to to help them get over some of the fears that they have in advocating for themselves?Kanika: I think one thing that I want to touch on when we talk about personal branding is that we have to continue to try to the best of our ability to align our personal brand of who we are as individuals with an employer brand that will make us feel like we feel good about this job situation, right? So it's important that when we're looking for jobs and interviewing for jobs that if there are things on our list that we desire to have in addition to our annual salary, if it's work-life balance, if it's paid time off, if it's remote options from home, I think it's important to do research on the job just as much as they're doing research on you as you come into interview with them. I think we apply blindly and we go on job interviews blindly not really looking at all of the other things that the job may or may not offer from a culture perspective or from a benefits perspective.Zach: And so then what does it look like to, like, assess a company to make sure that their personal brand does align with yours? Like, how does one go about that type of research?Kanika: So that type of research can happen through websites like Glassdoor.com. You can also--what I've done and what I've coached my clients to do is it's important to reach out to--what I usually do in the past is I reached out to Black and brown folks that worked at the company and I connected with them on LinkedIn and I either, you know, had a Zoom call with them or coffee chat or we met up for lunch, or we just talked on the phone, and I just wanted to get their insight on how the company culture is for them and how things have been working out for them, 'cause sometimes Glassdoor, it has some good, consistent information about the companies, but it's also good to talk to the people that already work for the company.Zach: Absolutely. I have folks hit me up on LinkedIn, Black and brown folks hit me up often. Let me, like, not even exaggerate. Like, a lot. A lot asking me about "I know that you work here now," you know, "Would you recommend this being a place for me?" What would be your recommendation or advice on how to ask and how to network, you know, in terms of asking people who currently work there and, like, how to reach out? What are some of the best practices for you?Kanika: Some of the best practices for me have been just developing a standard direct message template through LinkedIn and introducing yourself. The first thing you want to do is edify them, edify their profile, make them feel good, make them feel comfortable for them coming in to talk to you as a stranger. So I try to make the person that I'm interviewing like, "Oh, hey. I see you work at This Company and I see you have an awesome profile and you're an expert at this particular subject," and then I go in and I say, "Well, hey, I just wanted to reach out to you just to connect with you to see how you've been enjoying the company, and I'm interested in applying or I have applied to X job, and I would love to chat with you to see how your experience has been." So I try to send out maybe close to 10 messages, because not everybody's gonna respond back. Some people are scared to talk about company culture with a stranger, and some people just don't care--some people just don't really use LinkedIn and they don't respond, and a lot of people would be willing to share their experiences, and I try to get a diverse perspective. So I don't just say, "Let me just reach out to all the Black folks." I'm looking to reach out to a diverse set of people. So, you know, Asian, white, Black, female, male, you know what I mean? So I don't get just one perspective.Zach: Right, right. So let's talk a little bit about your work with [?] and your work with Entrepreneur, right? Like, how did you create that relationship, and what does it look like to maintain that, and how does it help the work that you do today?Kanika: I pretty much got a book deal with Entrepreneur a year ago, probably maybe December 2018ish I should say. Maybe a little bit over a year ago, but going into 2019 I got a book deal, and that relationship is really good. I was pretty much trying to get a book deal for a while with Career Rehab. Career Rehab actually got turned down by a lot of other publishers. So Career Rehab was pitched to Entrepreneur. They loved the idea. At first they had a lot of--if anybody knows Entrepreneur's brand and their magazine, they have a lot more entrepreneur, business-based authors on their roster, so they were looking for opening up an arena for more career topic-type authors, so I came in right on time for this particular time that they were looking for people, and they were looking for more minority women authors because Entrepreneur has a lot of white male authors. So that's kind of how that relationship happened. I got on the phone with them. I pitched them the idea. They really liked it. We started writing in January 2019, and then the book came out a year after that, this year, 2020. So it was a really good relationship. What I like about the platform and I like about what they're allowing me to do is they're allowing me to re-use a lot of the Career Rehab content in the book through articles. We're gonna be doing webinars. They're also allowing me to highlight other things that I want to talk about, like we featured Minda Harts. We're featuring Netta Jenkins with Dipper. So I'm using the platform to also highlight us in a way. You get it? So I'm using mainstream media, things that they've never seen from an African-American woman who's an author, but I'm saying, let's shed light on all of these awesome people that I know in my network as well.Zach: Yeah, I'm just really honored, you know what I'm saying, that you came on our platform to talk about your book, to talk about just some basic tenets on some of the things we don't know and how we build, and I do think I talk to folks--'cause I'm 30 years old, and most millennials, at this point they've been at their jobs for at least 5 or 6 years, right? Like, they've been working for 5 or 6 years, and a lot of us, we'll get hired somewhere after we do undergrad and then we do grad school, a lot of us will then be at our jobs for, like, 5 or 6--and those of us who didn't do any type of post-grad, you know, we've been working for 7, 8 years, you know, if not a little bit longer, and so I think it's important for us as we look at a new decade, like, what does it look like to do an assessment and make a determination of "Am I really where I need to be, and if not, what does it look like for me to create a path either at my current employer or to seek opportunities elsewhere?" Before we let you go--this has been a dope conversation--let's get some shout-outs in here. Where can people learn about you? I want you to plug your stuff. And then any parting words you have for us.Kanika: You definitely can find the Career Rehab book on Amazon.com. You can find me KanikaTolver.com. I'm pretty much on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, LinkedIn all @KanikaTolver. Those are my handles. They're all pretty much the handle, KanikaTolver. And, you know, you can just find me on, like, a lot of other podcast shows. I've done a lot of interviews, so yeah.Zach: Man, I appreciate you. Kanika, this has been fire. Y'all, this has been Zach. You've been on the Living Corporate podcast. You know, we everywhere, okay? You can check us out on Google or whatever your search engine is. Firefox, you know? What's another one... Edge?Kanika: Chrome. Safari.Zach: Chrome, whatever, you know what I'm saying? You out there. Just Google us - Living Corporate. You know, we out here, but if you're into domains, living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, and then we're also at livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate dot... shoot, all of the livingcorporates except for livingcorporate.com 'cause Australia owns livingcorporate.com, okay? So when y'all go to livingcorporate.com and y'all see corporate apartment rentings, don't be like "What happened?" No, I told y'all. It's living DASH corporate dot com, please say the dash, or you can do livingcorporate dot any other thing besides .com and we're gonna pop up, okay? Now, make sure you follow us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod or Instagram @LivingCorporate, and, you know, our DMs are wide open. If you have a question, a listener letter, you want to send in something for us to read on the show, we can do that. Until next time, this has been Zach. You've been listening to Kanika Tolver, CEO and author of Career Rehab, VIP entrepreneur with Entrepreneur, career coach, speaker, educator, technology consultant professional. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach sits down with activist Tema Okun, author of "The Emperor Has No Clothes: Teaching About Race And Racism To People Who Don't Want To Know," to have a chat geared around white supremacy culture at work. She and Zach take a deep dive into a piece she wrote on the subject, dissecting several of the named characteristics present in the document. Check out the show notes to reference the piece and to find out more about her work!Connect with Tema on Twitter.Read her "White Supremacy Culture" piece by clicking here.Interested in her book, "The Emperor Has No Clothes?" Check it out on Amazon.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and, you know, we continue to live in really extraordinary times for some people. Frankly, these times have been this way for a while for many of us, but we have this, like, seemingly [?] to awareness and consciousness, and so I want to respect that. I want to respect where we are. And, you know, we've actually shifted up our interview schedule, and we're having more and more pointed conversations about the reality of white supremacy. So you've probably noticed a few episodes, and we're gonna continue to do that. You know, I shared on Twitter a couple days ago that, like, I think my baseline is just much angrier these days, and I'm at peace with that. And so with that all being said, you know, we have conversations on Living Corporate that center marginalized voices at work. We do that by engaging thought leaders from across the spectrum to really have just authentic discussions. Today we have a phenomenal guest, just like we do every single week, but it makes no less true that we have a great guest today, Dr. Tema Okun. Tema has spent many years working for the social justice community. For over 10 of those years she worked in partnership with the late and beloved Kenneth Jones as part of the Change [?] Training Group and now facilitates long-term anti-racism, anti-oppression work as a member of The DR Works Collaborative. She is a skilled [?] facilitator, bringing both an anti-racist lens and commitment to supporting personal growth and development within the context of institutional and community mission. She holds a BA from Oberland College, a Masters in Adult Education from NC State University, a doctorate at NC Greensboro, and is on the faculty of the educational leadership department at the National Louis University in Chicago. She is active in Middle East peace and justice work with Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions USA. Dr. Okun, how are you?Tema: I'm great, and I want to apologize upfront because some of those biographical facts are no longer true. I left the faculty of NLU several years ago, and I'm now active with the Jewish [Voice?] for Peace. Just to update everybody so that they don't think you or I are lying about [?].Zach: Thank you for correcting me, I appreciate that. So, you know, you've been in this work for quite a while. Like, we talked some months ago actually before my daughter was born, and--Tema: Oh, you have a beautiful daughter.Zach: Thank you very much. Yes, yes, you've seen her. Yeah, she looks great, and she's getting bigger every day. It's just so cool that she's changing all the time. What I'd like to know though is if you've ever seen anti-racist, anti-state-sanctioned violence protests like this in your lifetime in terms of just scale and scope?Tema: You know, you gave me that question ahead of time, and I want to say both yes and no, and I want to say yes because [?] during the Vietnam War protest time period and I lived during the AIDS protest time and the growth of the LGBTQ movement, and I do want to acknowledge that the grief and rage and resistance that we're seeing today is part of a longer legacy of people who have been full of grief and rage and resistance before us so that we don't isolate ourselves and we also take credit for this particular moment, which is unique in the sense of the reach, the brilliance, the clarity about the demands, and I'm very excited about, you know, the defund the police direction that this is taking, and so it's a yes and no answer. I'm so excited to be alive in this moment, and I feel like I was honored to live through those other moments as well.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting because it's easy to kind of forget about the history of protest or the history of, like, anti-racism work, and so then, like, things kind of come in cycles, and so, you know, new voices come up in new generations and it's almost as if these conversations have never been had before, but, like, I'd like to get your perspective on really, like, just these concepts, the concept of whiteness and then also, like, the concept of anti-racism. And I know those are big questions. I'ma give you space, but I'd love just to hear you talk about that.Tema: Well, I think part of what's really unique about this moment is that these concepts are more broadly understood within the resistance movement that we're seeing now than they ever have been in my lifetime, so that part is definitely true. When I started doing this work a gazillion years ago, [?] years ago or so, you know, a lot of people--there was not what I would call... I don't want to use the word sophisticated, so the deep understanding about what whiteness is, how white supremacy operates, how white supremacy is the culture that we're swimming in, how it informs who we are although it doesn't define who we are. There was not that clarity, and I feel like I've been a part of the generation of people who helped think about, develop, and--and I'm not taking credit for it. I mean, I'm part of the wave of people who sort of understood that it was important to ground us in understanding that, understanding the ways that white supremacy, capitalism, patriarchy, all of these symptoms of oppression have really shaped who we are, and we need to understand how they operate if we're gonna do something different and have a different vision. So what I'll say is I think--and this might be one of the questions you're gonna ask later, but I think that the thing that we need to be careful about is that white supremacy and capitalism and patriarchy are very, very ingenious, and what we've seen happen in every movement that has ever occurred historically in our country is that they get diverted from a justice focus to an access focus and that capitalism and white supremacy know how to lure us just enough to say, "We're gonna let you have power of a certain extent in our institution. We're going to let you have access. We're going to say good things about you. But don't rock the boat too much." Leaders going, "Defund the police? It's too vague. You don't have a plan." You know, when we talk about access to healthcare, people don't demand [?]. It's like, "Yes, we have a vision. We have a vision of communities where the billions of dollars that are spent on militarized police are spent on schools and community centers and making sure people have enough food to eat." That's the vision that we have [?] defund the police, and that's what we're gonna do and not get distracted by--so part of the backlash is gonna be fierce and hateful and violent, but the more dangerous part of the backlash is gonna be accomodation.Zach: It's interesting, to your point around, like, respectability, right, and so how people, like, use the concept of civility, like, as a cudgel, right, to really stymie progression. You know, we had Dr. Robin DiAngelo on Living Corporate a few months ago, and we talked about her work in studying white fragility, and, you know, and--and, not but... not but, but I've listened to perspectives on how white fragility is not necessarily, you know, anti-racist work. Can you share your perspective on that?Tema: Sure. One of the dangers of our movement--and, you know, I love our movement, and I love many things about it. One of the dangers of our movement though is that we can get really [?] about what being in the movement or what activism is, and so my feeling is--so I'm 68 years old. I've been around a long time, and [?] point in my life is that we need it all. We need it all. This is not a competition about, you know, who's doing it right and who's doing it best and where the focus needs to be. So our frame, the way--The DR Works Collaborative has also been closed for about three or four years. All of our materials are on our website, which we can share the address later, but what we--our frame is that typically racism shows up on three levels, on the personal level, the ways that we are with each other and ourselves, on the cultura level, the beliefs and values and standards and norms of the groups of people that we're operating within, including sort of white supremacy culture overall, and then our institutional policies and procedures and practices, and one of our racial equity principles is that you have to work on all three levels. And so what I hear Robin saying, and I think it's really important, is that those of us are white who work pretty consistently on our conditioning, [?] the invitation that we are extended to join whiteness and, in joining whiteness, to both disconnect from people of color, disconnect from other white people and disconnect from ourselves, because that's what the invitation is. An example of white fragility is if you are angry, if you are in full grief about what's happening and my fragility says, "Well, you need to tone it down, because I can only accept your [?] if it comes to me in a certain kind of package," then I'm completely disconnected. I'm disconnected from you, and I'm disconnected from myself because I'm not allowing myself to feel my own grief and rage, right, because I'm so scared of yours I'm certainly not gonna feel my own. So I think what you're speaking to, you know, there's a thing that people say about white people and navelgazing and that we just like to navel gaze, and what I like to--you know, we like to agonize, and Maurice Mitchell talks about how his liberation or the liberation of black people, of people of color, is not tied up with my anxiety as a white person about getting it right. So I think that there's this balance between [?] our personal work, because all of us have invitations extended to us by white supremacy in some form or another. So all of us doing work on our internalized self and then continuing to be in the world and relationships and figuring out what our role in this resistance movement is. So it's not an either or. It's very much to me a both and, because if we don't do our personal work, then the way that we're gonna show up is just gonna replicate all of the [BLEEP] dynamics and clinging to power [?] and not understanding who we're accountable to and posturing and, you know, just things that aren't helpful, and fear of our fear and all of those things. I think it's a both and, right?Zach: I appreciate that, and I agree, right? I think one, white fragility is just so real, and it creates so many barriers and, frankly, causes so much harm in ways that we don't even consider, like, literally every single day, and because white supremacy is such a reality, white fragility impacts behavior of black and brown folks even when white people aren't around. So to make sure that those who are in power are examining and interrogating themselves, like, that's critical. That doesn't mean it's the only thing, but it's important to do.Tema: Yes. I think that living in white skin in a white supremacy culture obviously confers power and privilege, but not to everyone, and not in the same way, right? And so I think that it's really important, for me--'cause I'm speaking for myself--to understand how many white people are caught up in the same crapola of white supremacy and the ways that racism targets people of color, are caught up in that without [?] seeing it clearly. And I'm not saying that racism targets white people, I'm saying white people who are working class and poor or white people who have had no opportunity to understand how whiteness operates are swimming around in ways that are completely not in their self-interest, and, you know, are continually encouraged, for example, to look to middle class wealthy white people as their community when in fact their community are other people in the same economic and social situation that they're in. So, you know, I'd like to make sure we understand how many white people are hoodwinked by this whole thing as well and invited to participate in ways that make no sense [?].Zach: I think that's a really good point. One piece of literature that has really gotten, frankly, over the years consistent attention, but at this time it continues to get attention, is "White Supremacy Culture." It's something that you wrote, and we'll put the link in the show notes for everybody, but we're gonna walk through this research, this document. But before we do that, can you talk to us a little bit about how you arrived at the points that you made within the work that you wrote?Tema: Sure. So I've only written one book, and it's called "The Emperor Has No Clothes: Teaching About Race and Racism to People Who Don't Want to Know," and it basically was a chance for me to sit down and write all the things I and other colleagues have learned about teaching about race and racism to people. So that's what that book is, and White Supremacy Culture was written before the book, and I wrote it in either [?] or [?], so a long time ago. Kenneth and I were doing a lot of work on the West Coast, and I had just come from a People's Institute for Survival and Beyond workshop with Ron Chisholm and Daniel Buford and probably a few other people, and The People's Institute is based in New Orleans and is sort of, in my view, the grand daddy of people doing anti-racist education and training in my lifetime and so were our mentors and, you know, people that were doing the work that we were doing, so I was full of their wisdom when I wrote the piece, and I also had--and I can't remember the meaning, but I had just come from a meeting of predominantly white people where pretty much every dynamic in that sheet of paper, in that article, showed up, and I was frustrated beyond belief, and people say this, and this is my only experience of this phenomena, which is that "it wrote itself." Like, I didn't--I sat down at the computer and it wrote itself. Just sort of "This behavior, this behavior, this behavior, this behavior." It was like I was in a fury, and then I showed it to my mentor [?] Martinez, who was running a challenging white supremacy workshop at the time in the Bay Area, and she said, "You can't just list the terrible behaviors. You have to list antidotes. You have to talk about what to do," and so that was such good advice, and so I added those into it, and I will say--so it was written a long time ago. It was written without a class lens, which it needs, and it [?] things out, and it didn't--so I'm actually, in this moment, my project is creating a website rather than another article, but rather a website based on the article so that it can be more flexible. Lots of people have used it and adapted, and all the ways that people have used it and adapted it I'm gonna add a class lens, tell some stories, give examples. So that's my current project.Zach: Can we talk about, like--because in this document you essentially have these different characteristics. I'd like to walk through the characteristics that you list and then really just have you talk about each of them, because again, there are a lot of people that I respect, and I'm gonna shout-out Dr. Oni Blackstock because she's one of the most recent people who I saw tweeting about this and talking about this, but it's all over YouTube. Like, I don't know if you know this, but I just saw a video where somebody put this document up on a video and then, like, slow-scrolled it and talked about it, but I caught myself reading it and I said, "This is exactly like every work culture I've ever been a part of." So let's do this. Let's do each characteristic, and then you just kind of explain, you know, how these attitudes and behavior, you know, reinforce or drive white supremacy at work. Can we do that?Tema: Sure.Zach: So you start off with perfectionism. That's your first one.Tema: Mm-hmm. I started with that one I think probably because that's the one I'm the most guilty of myself. So, you know, I talk about how white supremacy culture is--the purpose of white supremacy is to disconnect us from each other [?] so that a few people can exert their control, cultural control, in ways that allow them to profit at our expense, and so perfectionism is this [idea?], it's very connected to professionalism, and it's this idea that there is a perfect way to do something, which is completely nonsense, and that there's somebody or some group of people who can determine what that is and encourage you to aspire to it. And then we internalize that, and I don't think I know a single person who actually feels completely comfortable with who they are and how they show up and how they're doing things, because the culture is so [?] I feel like we're continually falling short, and if we're continually falling short, then we have to buy products to make ourselves look better and feel better, and it's just a vicious cycle. And another thing I'll say about this list is that these things aren't just used to perpetuate racism and white supremacy and to target people of color in different ways at different times. They impact everybody, and they're toxic. There's nothing good about them at all at any time unless you're the one trying to control other people, and then you're so disconnected from yourself it's not even--Trump is a very good example of someone who's completely disconnected from anything. So I think that perfectionism is used as a tool of professionalism and as a tool to keep people from positions of power and also to keep people off balance about who they are and their worth and their value.Zach: You know, it's interesting. One of the things you say in here is, "Little appreciation expressed among people for the work that others are doing, appreciation that is expressed usually directed to those who get most of the credit anyway."Tema: Mm-hmm, yeah, exactly. And then the way that we internalize that, even when we're fighting hard not to. You know, I was talking to a friend yesterday who was applying for a position at a foundation. It's completely, completely clear to me, and I think to her, that she is not only qualified for the job, she is over-qualified for the job, and my guess is they won't hire her because it's clear to them too, you know? And it's so pernicious, the way that that works, where a lot of white people here who are not called to account for our lack of understanding about how racism and white supremacy works because it's not ever part of our job qualifications. No one is evaluating us based on our ability to understand how that works, and we're about to invite somebody in who does understand, and that makes us really uncomfortable, so maybe [?] somebody who's gonna not make us feel uncomfortable all the time. That's part of how that works.Zach: And so it's interesting. So I was about to move to sense of urgency, but to your point, in the recommended antidotes for racism you have "develop a culture of appreciation where the organization takes time to make sure the people's work and efforts are appreciated. Develop a learning organization where it's expected that everyone will make mistakes and those mistakes offer an opportunity for learning." It's interesting, even in organizations where they'll say things like, "Oh, it's okay to make mistakes," I've noticed that--and this is a common experience for most black folks at work, black and brown people to be clear, we don't have the same grace to make mistakes. It's interesting because--and I've had this conversation already with a colleague, but there was a time at work I put a PowerPoint together, and one I just think PowerPoints overall have to be one of the biggest examples of, like, subjectivity to the max, because what you think is a good PowerPoint or nice design I may genuinely think is abhorrent. I may really not like the design of your PowerPoint, right? Like, I might hate it. But anyway, I did a PowerPoint. Someone didn't like it, and so then that PowerPoint and then me, in their eyes, not doing well on a PowerPoint, was then a justification for me to blocked from [a multitude] of opportunities in very public ways, right? And so it's like, what does it look like to really create objective, safe, equitable spaces for everybody?Tema: Right. And what does it look like for that particular person to admit to themselves that they may not have the corner on how something needs to be done? I mean, I remember--each one of these, there's so much that's also interconnected, and two things come to mind. I remember Kenneth--so Kenneth was my mentor and my colleague for 12 years, and he died way too early in 2004, but as we were working together I remembered saying to him... 'cause my style, we were both about the same age, and my [?] style is sometimes to say or admit I've made a mistake or to show some vulnerability, and I said to Kenneth, "You never do that, you never show any vulnerability." "Tema, I can't afford to do that. People are watching me, waiting for me to make a mistake. So even if I make one, I'm not gonna say that I did because people are ready to pounce all over me for it." You know, and again, just another example of how long it took me to learn that, he had to sort of say that out loud to me [?]. So yeah, I think there's that part of it, and I had another thought, but I'm sure it will come to me as we keep talking. So here's the other story, which was that I seemed to be the details-oriented person, and sometimes I'd get really frustrated because I felt like he wasn't paying attention to, like, air fare or flights or when we had to be somewhere, and so I started to develop a little bit of an attitude about how I was doing so much more than he was, more important [?], and we were having a discussion and he said something to me like, "I talked to So-and-so the other day," and I said, "So-and-so? They were in our training a year ago," and he went, "Yeah, yeah." I said, "You're talking to them now?" "Oh, yeah, yeah," and then he proceeded to tell me that he was fostering relationships with most people in almost all the trainings over time and that that's what he did, and it just was such a lightbulb moment for me. I'm like, "Oh, my God. This man," who was a brilliant trainer, there was no question about that, "is leading and offering things that I've never even dreamt of being able to lead or offer that makes such a difference in this work, while I'm sitting here feeling all superior because I know how to schedule a plane flight." It was just like... so many of us, and so many white people in particular, but so many of us are walking around thinking that we know how things should work when we don't know at all, [?] open to how other ways of doing might actually offer so much more. So yeah.Zach: I appreciate that, and that resonates with me too because I think about, especially if you have, like, these majority white organizations, you know, again, people attract, or they're attracted, to people that are like them, right? And that's not just in appearance, but also in, like, ways of thinking and doing, and so, like, if you're in this space, the majority are really good at tasks or really good at [?] things off a box, if there's someone who can do those things but that's just not their wiring, then that person's automatically seen as a problem or as inferior in some way. In reality it's like, "Okay, I don't need--there's eight of y'all who tick off boxes and who are very, like, transactional. Is it possible for me to be different and at the same time be just as good if not add more value than you do perhaps?" I think, for me transparently, one of the biggest mistakes I think I've made in my career is that I think I've been too transparent and vulnerable about me wanting to learn and grow, 'cause I say "Hey, I'd like to learn this. I don't know this," but I've learned, in the spirit of perfectionism, when you communicate that you don't know something or you're new to something, I've just learned that we don't know, black and marginalized people, just don't have the grace to communicate that they don't know. They don't have the grace to grow. They just don't.Tema: Yeah, and it's infuriating. It's completely infuriating, and it's a complete loss. I think the thing that I would like to get across with my audience, my commitment to working with other white people, is for those of us listening to this to understand the deep violence in that, you know? In working side-by-side with people who feel like they are not allowed to offer their vulnerability or their desire to grow and learn because--my God, it's intense.Zach: So you have a lot of terms here, and you know, we might have to do a part two, but I want to see how many of these we can get through so I'm gonna back up and let you talk more. Sense of urgency.Tema: I think that, again, the point of urgency--so every organization I've ever worked with operates with a huge sense of urgency and everything is so critically important right this minute, and it completely perpetuates racism because--the example I'll give is we were doing work with an organization of mostly lawyers that do very good work on a state-wide level, and they had just sort of unpacked all the ways in which [?] of color on the staff and in the community that they served were not feeling heard, were not included in decision making, their ideas were shut down, sort of what we were just talking about, and then an emergency came up, and I think there might have been an arrest, but something urgent happened within the community, and the white leadership, the white lawyers, felt like they had to respond right this minute and if they didn't the organization would be at stake, and right in front of our eyes all of the dynamics were playing out in front of us, and the two of us who were facilitating the workshop tried to suggest to them, "This is happening right in front of our eyes. We know that this is urgent, and we suggest that you sit down and you take a breath and you understand there are other people in the community who are handling it in this moment and that what you all need to do is really sit and take a breath and see how you can approach this differently," and so they just repeated the--you know, you could see it. The white people were circled around, making all these decisions, and the people of color were [?] them on the outside, trying to listen in and then getting disgusted and walking away, and it was just--when things are urgent, if we're not paying attention and we haven't set up the relationships and we haven't set up the procedures to say when things get literally urgent this is what we're gonna do, when things feel urgent but they aren't this is what we're gonna do. Is this really as urgent as we think it is? Because it's urgent we need to take a breath, we need to take a breath and make sure that we're all in this together rather than walking all over each other in our attempt to prove something, which is to prove that, like, we're the organization that's gonna respond like that, even if the way that we respond, you know, tramples over people. And then I think a lot of us internalize urgency. A lot of white people feel like, "If we don't act right now, if I don't fix this right now, then I'm not gonna be able to prove that I'm a good white person," so then we go in and fix something and we make it worse because we haven't stopped to take a breath to consult with other people, to see if our intuition, our impulse is actually the right one. I've seen that happen over and over and over again.Zach: Let's talk about quantity over quality.Tema: Well, you know, we live in a capitalistic society, and we love to measure things, and we love to believe that value has to do with amounts of things, usually money. And again, so I see some of the [thunder patterns?], all of the thunder patterns that I've seen in my lifetime and work, is thunders trying to get people to prove that they're effective by the numbers of things. "How many people did you impact?" Not the quality of things, not the depth of things, not the sustainability of things but, you know, the number of things, which is such a limited measure of how we're doing, and the research I've done on culture shift shows that it's actually not a numbers game. We don't need a majority of people to shift culture. We need deep relationships, we need generational change, we need clusters of people coming to new beliefs simultaneously, but they don't have to be a majority. So I just think it's good to be able to have a sense of what we think progress is, but often we aim towards--I do a lot of work in schools, and the story I often tell--so I'm sorry if anyone's heard this before--is how our schools often, if not always, have a story that what they're trying to do is prepare students for success, and what they mean by that is "We want students to stay in school, get good grades, graduate, get a job, and go shopping, and if we can measure that we've done that it doesn't matter if our students are leading meaningful lives. We're not measuring that. We're not measuring if students know how to find themselves. We're not measuring if students have gotten in touch with their spiritual side or their artistic side. We're not measuring whether students know how to be in a relationship with themselves and with each other. We're not measuring the things that matter, you know? We just don't know how to measure those things. We're obsessed with graduation rates and, you know, how much money people are making.Zach: You have another one here about worship of the written word.Tema: Mm-hmm. So I'll give an example if you'll give an example, but this is our history, sort of the theft of indigenous land, the theft of land from Mexico, the broken treaties, the enslavement of people, it's all built on worship of the written word and the whole, you know, all of our Southwest and Midwest states that became US property after the Mexican-American War and the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, all of that theft of land was made possible because Congress passed all kinds of legislation requiring people to [?], and most people lived in a culture where that's not how people [?] that they owned land. So that's just one example, and just the ways that we hide behind "If it's not written down, then it doesn't exist." "It's only wisdom if it's written down," and then only if it's written down by certain people. What comes to mind for you?Zach: So here's where I found the application interesting. So there's a way that I believe those in power and in the majority will essentially place the burden on the oppressed to have evidence, like, tangible, documented evidence, but then in the instances where that evidence is undeniable, then at best it simply just saves that oppressed person from being harmed, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee justice for that oppressed person.Tema: Yeah, or they'll say it's not written right or the form was not filled out correctly or--Zach: Right, or "We still don't have all the facts," or "What about the other person's side?" And so there's still this--it's such a jig, because you're gonna lose, but the question is "While this may have saved you from getting fired, it's not actually going to absolve your name completely after all. These other people said something." Right?Tema: I think about when Bhagat Singh Thind sued the Supreme Court for citizenship, and he was from India, and he was suing based on how science classified people from India as Caucasoids, and the year before a Japanese person who had done the same thing lost the case because people from Japan were classified as mongoloids, so they were not white, but the Supreme Court said, "Well, it's true science classifies you as Caucasoids, but you're not seen as white by the common white man, therefore you're not white." So it's the written word, but also the word is, as you said, controlled and considered by those in power, and whose written words will be paid attention to and whose won't?Zach: Yeah. I think about Breonna Taylor. We know that she was murdered by the state in her own bed, but then when you go back and you look at the report it's completely blank, right? And so, like, anybody with good sense should be able to understand that Breonna Taylor's bullet-ridden body and that piece of paper are not congruent. So one of those [?] is lying. Breonna's own blood testifies that she is not lying, so why are Breonna Taylor's murderers still free? It's the worship of the written word.Tema: Yeah. Sandra Bland, all of that, yeah.Zach: Yeah, Sandra Bland as well, right? And countless others. Tony McDade. And it's frustrating, but I think about that. I think about how manipulative and--you used the word pernicious, it's a really appropriate word in that, you know, documentation really matters until it doesn't. I always tell marginalized people to document everything, because again, while documentation might not ever hold any accountable, it at the very least can make sure that you don't get fired, or it can delay you getting fired because you have something, hard evidence, that if someone says something, you're like, "Well, what you're saying is clearly not true." Okay, so paternalism was another characteristic that you had in your research.Tema: Yeah. I'm gonna bow here to a man named Paul Kibble, who does a lot of writing on Christian hegemony. It's just the way in which--and so many of these intersect, and I'm adding one called "qualified." I don't know if that's on the list explicitly there, but it's the way in which white people assume that, because we're white, we are qualified to act and make decisions that are outside our lived experience, and I think about--when I taught it, when I wasn't on the faculty in educational leadership, when I taught undergraduate students in education, you know, most of them are young, white women who were coming into teaching because they loved to--and please know I admire teachers beyond belief because they work so hard for so little, and yet they come in, these young white women come in very idealistic and very hopeful, and they have no experience, most of them, working with people of color and very little preparation for doing that, and yet have not internalized that they're not at all qualified to do the job, and the education system hasn't internalized that either, and so just the ways in which we've got almost every [?] institution is operating out of a sense of paternalism. Like, "We know what's better for you without consulting you or asking you about your lived experience." And I think about doing work with the department of social services where it's about a woman who, in order to make it through her week, had to visit 11 different offices in the Department of Social Services to account for herself, you know? And it's the way in which--if we look at Congress. Banks are completely involved in writing policies having to do with banks. Poor people and working people have no say in policies that impact their lives, and the laws that impact their lives are written by people who think that they need to be punished for being working class and poor or who think that they need to be exploited or, you know, who have absolutely no care or concern or lived experience, for the most part, of what it means to be black, brown, working class poor, and paternalism is just this idea that "We know better than you," and it can be very deeply embedded in religious thinking, in Christian thinking, and [?]--it's just sort of the idea that "We know best. We're going to convert you to our ways," and that's white supremacy is all about. The goal here [?] is "Act like us if we can exploit you more that way." Assimilation, and if not assimilation exploitation and violence, you know? It's just all based on this idea that we know better, and one of the things that we know better is that [class?] is more important than people.Zach: I think that's true. I think it comes down to a lot of power and control. So, you know, one of my larger concerns right now, even as corporations and larger organizations are looking at Black Lives Matter and people are taking these statements and stances, and organizations are mobilizing their employee resource groups and different things to have these conversations and do real talk and all this kind of stuff, and how much of this is about really hearing and including their marginalized employees, and how much of this is about, like, really making sure that you're retooling, reshaping your organization to be equitable and inclusive, or how much of this is really about you just trying to put some gates and borders around this to maintain control, right? That's my biggest concern.Tema: So I think there's two parts to this. So I think there can be conscious paternalism and there can be unconscious paternalism, and probably lots of gray [?] in between, and so I for one completely hate the terms diversity and [?] because I don't think that they--it's about window-dressing or table-dressing or whatever term you want to use. It doesn't ask the question, "What are we including people into?" Because if we were to ask that question, we would have to admit that a lot of what we're inviting people into is toxic. So it's not about including people. It's about reshaping everything, and I think that's what I was talking about in terms of what we need to be wary of, that some of the backlash is going to be very direct and hateful. Now, a lot of it is gonna be about accommodation, and forget about justice, let's just accommodate, accommodate, accommodate. And paternalism really plays a role there, and we can see it reflected in older leaders often, people who have been around a long time, who are scared they're gonna lose power by these young people who are coming up full of fervor and demanding justice, and some of us have accommodated for so long in order to just often survive that we've forgotten what the goal is, and some of the paternalism is--I'll speak for myself--is internalized entitlement, the internalized belief that I'm qualified to do things I'm not qualified to do, and it didn't require any intent on my part. And I tell a story on the website, and it might be in the book I can't remember, of essentially pushing my black colleague aside in an environment where I knew absolutely everything. This was a different colleague, a colleague named Kamayu [sp] [?], an incredible organizer, and he was in [?], the room was packed full of African-American people living in the [?], economically poor, culturally incredibly genius and rich, and, you know, I didn't think he was doing a good job, so I walked up to the front and I pushed him aside, and I didn't know anything about [?] in the [?], right? But I had this instinct in my body that he wasn't doing it and I needed to fix it. It was--so there's that, the way I internalized this paternalism and this idea that I know how to do things. We just cause so much harm, and again, it's a complete tribute to Kamayu that we're still friends. He actually didn't say anything to me for years, and finally I started to think about it and I'm like, "Kamayu, what about that day?" And he went, "Oh, I figured you'd figure it out sooner or later." You know? So there were, like, five years in there where Kamayu was not--I was not in a genuine relationship with him because he was waiting for me to figure it out, you know?Zach: To your example, I think about it in ways that, like--so it's interesting, you have these cultures that are very racist, right? Like, you have these organizations that have harmed black people for a while, but it just so happens that there's a certain confluence of events that are forcing organizations that have been historically harmful to black and brown people, now they're having to do things differently. But what's challenging, what's interesting, is that some of the people who just six months ago were very harmful are now self-appointing themselves as leaders to have these conversations, right? And, like, there's a certain--of course that's emotionally inauthentic, but I think there's also a certain level of entitlement and paternalism in that.Tema: Yeah, totally. And again, I think--so this is my job, it's not your job, but as someone who identifies as white, who is white, who lives a white life and thinks a lot about what it means to be in relationships with other white people, part of [my job?] is to encourage myself and other white people to think about, "What are we doing here?" And what is the cost to you of this posturing, and what would it be like for you to actually authentically sit down with yourself and go, "Okay, what am I afraid of? What kind of help do I need? What are the things I really need to change?" And I think all of us need to develop a much better practice of what I would call radical honesty with ourselves about why we want to live in a world where we actually are able to have authentic relationships with other people and ourselves and live in a world where people are well-cared for and people can thrive and we don't have to be so afraid of [?] and all these other things. So yeah.Zach: So I'ma pick one last one. Fear of open conflict.Tema: Yeah, that goes back to perfectionism and some of the other things that we talked about. The story I'll tell is that--well, it's a common story, which is that some racism is happening, and rather than deal with the racism that's happening we will label or target the person who's naming it, and sometimes that happens to white people too because we're so afraid of the truth-telling that's gonna happen of how racism is happening. So it's just this--we're too afraid to talk about things that are real and are gonna have emotion attached to them and might lead us, as white people, to feel like we've done something wrong or that we may even essentially be bad in some kind of way, so let's not talk about it. Let's blame the person who's trying to make us uncomfortable. This is attached to "right to comfort." Let's blame the people who are calling us in and say that there's something wrong with them so we don't have to feel our feelings, we don't have to be uncomfortable, we don't have to look at ourselves. We can stay in what feels like control, and it's such a--again, it does such harm, to other people and also to ourselves. The ability to sort of say, "Bring it on. Okay, tell me more. Tell me more. That was so racist? Okay, tell me more. I want to know. Tell me more." It's such a different energy. It's opening. Or "You're racist." "No, I'm not." "Yes, you are." "No, I'm not." There's nowhere--it's, like, you're building conflict and you're not--it's like, "So tell me. How am I racist? Yeah, I want to know, because I think I probably am. So tell me." There's so much more fruit there, even if you end up not agreeing with what they say it's like there's more fruit, more juice, more ability to--it's like, "We can handle this. We can sit in this discomfort, and in fact, if we don't learn to do that we're not gonna get anywhere."Zach: But see, I think that in the context of, like, a business, like, the fear with that is that if I admit that I'm racist, if I admit that I've harmed you, then that gives you byway to pursue the company, right? And so there's this fear of creating risk or opening your company up, opening yourself up to risk by admitting your faults, you know?Tema: So people just need to figure out a way to deal with that.Zach: [laughs] I love how you just dismiss that.Tema: Oh, come on. I don't--you know, legalese and laws and policies [?] in service of connection and not in service of fear and abuse, right? It's like Trump saying you can only come to the thing if you're not gonna sue me if you get the coronavirus. Like, no. And I would also say, for me, one of the racial equity principles [?], you'll see this list of characteristics, and you'll also see our racial equity principles, and one of the ones I love the most is called Organizing Mind, and what we mean by that is you start with the chorus. People go, "Oh, you're preaching to the chorus," and I go yes, because our chorus is very out of tune, so let's get in tune, and then we can start preaching to people outside the chorus and bring them into the chorus. So it's, like, start with the people who want you want, and figure out what your power is, figure out the risk that you're willing to take, and from there each one reach one teach one, as Sharon Martinez would say. So in a corporate environment it's, like, figuring out what are the roadblocks that we need to get rid of so we can actually do this, or whwere are we willing to have authentic conversations regardless of the risk and can we start doing that? So figure out what's within your power to do and do it. Don't wait for permission. Don't wait for--you know, there are lots of things that we can do and build our power that way without people giving us permission to do it, as we are witnessing across the country and across the globe, right? All these beautiful people, many young people, not waiting for permission. Bringing down statues, [?], and it's a beautiful thing to see right now.Zach: It's brought me joy, frankly, to see. Dr. Okun, this has been a phenomenal conversation. I just want to thank you so much for being a guest. I want to make sure that everybody knows that the document that we were walking through and that I picked a few characteristics out of for our guest to beautifully expand upon is gonna be in the show notes, and we're going to also be promoting it--you'll see it this week on social media and things of that nature, so make sure that you check it out. This has been Living Corporate. You know, we do this every single week. We're having conversations, real talk in a corporate world, that center and amplify marginalized voices at work. We'll make sure to catch you all next time. In the meantime between now and next time, we're all over Beyonce's internet. You just type in Living Corporate, we'll pop up. Catch us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, and man, if you have anything you want to talk to us about, just contact us through the website, living-corporate.com. Please say the dash--living dash corporate dot com. 'Til next time, y'all, this has been Zach, and you've been listening to Dr. Tema Okun, activist, educator, speaker, organizer. Peace.

Zach welcomes Dr. Janice Gassam, Ph.D. back to the podcast to talk about the concept of centering Black experiences. She and Zach discuss the tremendous impact of enduring continuous emotional labor and implore any and all aspiring allies and/or white executives to compensate Black people when they're asked to speak about their feelings, and Dr. Gassam also shares a bit about both her podcast and new book, both titled "Dirty Diversity" - check the show notes if you'd like to find out more!Learn more about (and buy!) Dr. Gassam's book "Dirty Diversity" on Amazon or Audible.Interested in the Dirty Diversity podcast? Check it out on her website.Read Dr. Gassam's "Dear Companies: Your BLM Posts Are Cute But We Want To See Policy Change" piece on Forbes.Connect with Dr. Gassam on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, you know, you know what we do. We have real talk in a corporate world, and we do that by centering marginalized voices so that we can actually amplify and center marginalized experiences at work, right? And so we're having these conversations with thought leaders, with educators, with writers, with executives, with entrepreneurs and social influencers and activists and elected officials - anybody, really - all around, again, centering and amplifying the most marginalized voices in the workplace, and so today we have a returning guest - frankly, a friend of the show, you know what I mean? Dr. Janice Gassam. Dr. Janice Gassam is an educator, public speaker, a consultant, and a senior contributor with Forbes. Dr. Gassam, how's it going?Dr. Gassam: It is going well. Thank you so much, Zach. I really appreciate you amplifying my voice and consistently amplifying my work. I love that we, like, you know, have built this support system, and I think that's so important, that we are, as quote-unquote marginalized people, we're supporting each other.Zach: Well, I mean, it's not--you make it very easy. You do great work, and your work really is what needs to be centered and focused on right now. I'm really curious, you know, as white folks are apparently learning what racism is for the first time, how have your--what does it look like in your field? Like, are you getting more requests right now? I know last time you were on the podcast we talked about the fact that a lot of folks would ask you not to talk about race. You know, what does it look like when you have clients reach out to you with requests?Dr. Gassam: Wow, that's a great question, and things have blown up and have exploded as far as I've been getting so many requests for racial equity workshops, and that's--you know, I'm partial to those workshops. Those are my favorite, but it's just so ironic because even, you know, less than a year or so ago I would have these discovery calls with clients, you know, who want me to come in and do a workshop or a training, and they have specifically said, "Do not talk about white privilege. Do not talk about race." They preferred me talking about the safe subjects like emotional intelligence, which I'm fine with talking about that, but I think that it's limiting in that if you're not willing to engage in the conversation nothing is going to change. So I'm very--I'm cautiously optimistic, and I hope that the momentum is still here after the summer is over. And I try to impress upon these leaders that, like, one workshop is not gonna change anything. Whether it's me or somebody else, you need to be bringing people in to facilitate to these continuous conversations. I think that that is really important, and people seem like they're starting to get it, so, you know, I'm just excited about this moment in time right now. I've never been busy like this before since my career started. So I think it's an exciting moment, and I'm trying to take advantage of it.Zach: And so let's talk about that. So, like, you know, again, in the past people would say, "Don't talk about white privilege, don't talk about Black experiences, Black female experiences. Talk about gender, but don't intersect that at all with ethnicity (or) race." What does it look like now when people hit you up? Like, what are they actually saying?Dr. Gassam: So, you know, I get emails primarily, and they're like, "Hey, my company wants to--" And what's funny, Zach, is that, like, there's such a sense of urgency now, you know? These same companies that--I'm gonna be [?]. I'm gonna keep it 100,000% real. Some of the same companies that didn't have money once COVID hit magically found the budget. You know, I had things lined up. And I get it, you know? They came back to me in March and April and said, "We don't have the budget." Cool. So now in June y'all found the budget, I guess. You know? Which I'm like, "Obviously you're realizing diversity, equity and inclusion is a priority." So it's usually--you know, the requests come in the form of an email. I appreciate that people have really been sharing my content on social media. So people often find me either through LinkedIn or through Instagram and they say, "Hey, I saw you talk about race, and we need this at our company. So when can you find a time to speak? How much do you charge for a workshop? What do your workshops entail?" So that's pretty much what it seems like, but with some of these requests it seems like there's such a sense of urgency, and that worries me a little bit because I think that it's not, like, a quick Band-Aid. You know, I'm happy to do the workshop. I've been doing these workshops. I've done many workshops, and I already know the structure and everything. However, I think that you have to have long-term objectives, and I don't know if a lot of these organizations have long-term objectives. It just seems like they want to do something so it looks like they're not doing nothing.Zach: Right, right. What is concerning about that, anxiety-inducing for me transparently, right, is it's very reactionary, and it reminds me of Martin Luther King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail. Like, that portion where he talks about the white moderate and, like, how they're more concerned about false peace [than] with an absence of justice. And so even now in this moment I'm like, "Okay, are y'all just trying to mobilize something really quick just to say that y'all did something so that you don't have uprisings within your companies, or are you really looking to create equitable and inclusive working environments, not just for the next couple of days but for, like, the foreseeable future as your company moves forward in this new normal?" Like, that to me continues to be, like, my ongoing question. I mean, I've had people reach out talking about, "Can you come in and do some unconscious bias?" No.Dr. Gassam: And that is the worst. I don't think unconscious bias trainings are trash by any means. I think that most companies are not doing them effectively. That's, like, a nice way to say it, 'cause I think unconscious bias training doesn't do a lot. "Hey, I go through this training and I find out I have a bias against Black people." You might take an [?] association test and see, "Hey, I have a bias toward or against women, so what do I do now?" It's like, "Cool, now I recognize my biases," but if there's systems in the organization that allow bias to persist, it doesn't matter that now I know how to not say micro-aggressive statements, because there's, like, bias entrenched and baked into the fabric of the company. Like, in the way that they hire employees, that they're using a referral--many of these consulting companies, it's all referrals, it's all Jim knows Bob who knows John, and that's how you get jobs. It's primarily who you know and not what you know, and I think that there is benefits to referral hiring programs and systems, but I think that the way they're currently being done is just, like, creating this echo chamber of the same types of people. So I always encourage organizations to look at their systems and say, like, "Are Black people being promoted at the same rates as other people?" Because it's cool for you to say, "Look, no, no, no, we have a lot of Black people," but they're all in lower-level positions in the organization, but are they in senior-level positions, and if they are, how long are they staying? Because a lot of these tech companies, I love that they're being transparent and putting out these diversity reports, but they're not telling us how many of those Black people or those Latinx people or those women are staying in those roles, 'cause they're like, "Look, 13% of our population is Black [?]. Yay! That went up 1% from last year. Yay!" Like, but it's like, are those the same Black people, or did you just hire a bunch of new ones, and then those same ones with quit next--you know? So I think, like, looking at why there's this revolving door, particularly of Black people, you know, like, in the tech industry and all of these industries. The fact of the matter is that, like, Black people, a lot of us are not staying in companies, and part of the reason--a large part I would say--is because of the hostile work environments that we're working in. Zach: 100%. I mean, so Living Corporate, we've put out a couple of whitepapers, but, like, there's a few different reports, but they're, like, very rare, that talk about, like, turnover percentages. So I've yet to see anything that explicitly says "The turnover for this group is this." I've seen, and we've cited, sources that'll talk about the fact that Black and brown turnover is, like, two or three times higher than their white counterparts, but you're right. Like, there's no annual reporting that shows, "Hey, you know, our Black employees are four times more likely to leave within their first two years than their white counterparts." Like, that's not anything--those rates are never discussed. But you're absolutely right.Dr. Gassam: I think it's important, I mean, because these companies tout that they're so diverse, and I think that that's something important, that not just--we focus so much on the diversity piece. That is important to say, "Hey, look, we actually have diverse representation," but also, like, are they staying? Because if you're using stock images with Black people that look diverse that make your company look diverse but then I get there and I'm like, "Hm." I'm, like, the only Black person. That's, like, false advertising, and there's a lot of that going around, you know? I know the new buzzword is, like, performative allyship, and there's a lot of that going around with a lot of different companies that shall rename nameless, but yeah, I'm glad to see people are really calling them out, these companies out, and saying, "You posted Black Lives Matter, but you asked us not to wear Black Lives Matter stuff." Or "You have no Black people in senior positions," or "You have a hostile work environment where Black people don't feel comfortable." So, like, it's cute to--I wrote an article, like, "It's cute to post Black Lives Matter, but we want to see, like, policy changes." That's nice and fine and dandy, and I appreciate your statement because, you know, that's better than your silence, but I want to see more, and I'm glad that people are demanding more of their company.Zach: I wonder... I still don't think that organizations--and your piece was incredible, and we're gonna make sure that we link it in the show notes for those who didn't see it, but what I don't think organizations understand is that, like, if they come out here really loud externally about all these things they're gonna do to combat racism and inequity and things of that nature, but then, like, internally their policies and their cultures, their practices, their behaviors don't change, like, that's going to create more resistance, higher turnover, higher disengagement, than they had in the first place.Dr. Gassam: Mm-hmm, and as an employee, if I worked in that company, I would just be looking like, "Okay, y'all are, like, not really about that life." And I'm not about, like, exposing the company that I work for unless I feel like I've been completely mistreated--and I've definitely felt like that in workplaces, but my industry is very small, so I just silently exit a company, and I might speak of it but not give specifics and names and things like that. But I think that you're opening your company up to that type of negative publicity from employees if you're not, like, authentic in the things that you do, and I mentioned this before in a few speaking engagements I've done, but I have a friend that works at a very well-known consulting firm. She's been there for four years, and she said that--she belongs to a marginalized group. She's considered brown, and she said that since--her company has a diverse referral program, but she said since she's been working at the company for the last four years, they've never hired anyone from that diverse referral program. But it's just, like--I call it cosmetic diversity, where you have something in place just to look like you're doing something, look like you're actually about that life that a lot of these companies are not about [that life]. So I think that that's just not a good look. If you're gonna like the talk, you have to also be doing things that show that you're actually putting your words and your intentions into action.Zach: I agree. And to your point around, like, negative press or attention, it's--I think also, and all of this generational, because even I--you know, as someone... I'm 30, right? So, like, I'm not young-young, but I'm not older. I'm not old. So I think I probably still don't fully appreciate how easy it is--like, for something to go viral, especially as something negative, but it's, like, really, really easy. Like, there's so many avenues and mechanisms to, like, share your voice now, and I just don't know if organizations appreciate that AND the fact that, you know, doing that today, like, airing things out, putting people on blast, is not an automatic career ender like it might have been, like, five or six years ago. Like, if you put somebody on blast now, like, that doesn't mean that your career is over. It means you just--like, you may be actually heralded as a hero depending on how you do it, right? Dr. Gassam: Yeah, you're absolutely right, and just like a lot of these racists who say and do things after a year or so and the public forgets and they're able to go and get jobs, the same I think could be said for employees that put their companies on blast, because so many things are happening in our lives that we forget. Like, I don't remember all of these people's names. Are we still gonna remember Amy Cooper? Well, I guess there's a law now with her name, but are we gonna remember all of the Barbecue Beckys? Like, what their actual names are? Probably not. So I do think that you're absolutely right in that companies I don't think quite appreciate and understand how easy it is for people to get information out and just share their story and just share, "This company has a crappy environment." And you actually shared with me last year that internal memo, that Medium article, that those Facebook, those Black--I believe they were all Black, or some were Latinx--Facebook employees wrote about the toxic work culture and, you know, there's so many avenues to write anonymous memos and things like that about your company, and so that's not the type of press and reputation that you want. So I'm really happy that people are like, "We need to change. We are really--" Like, I've been getting requests, Zach, from, like, the most fascinating, like, industries that I never even expected, like, this person is reaching out and that person is reaching out. A fitness company reached out to me and said that they wanted me to do a webinar. A jewelry company reached out to me, and I was just like, "Wow." So, like, it's every industry. It's industry-wide. So, you know, I think that has really been interesting to me, that everyone is waking up and saying, "Whatever industry we're in, this is a problem that is, like, not specific to our industry. Everyone is having these issues and needs to figure out how we create an environment that is inclusive to Black people specifically," because I think that a lot of times the conversation gets watered down and we talk about other groups but we don't focus specifically on Black people and Black liberation and things like that, and I think that that's a huge part of the reason we're here, that we have more ease with talking about LGBTQ+ issues or gender issues than we do racial issues.Zach: You're absolutely right, and I think a large reason for that is because white people can be women and white people can be gay, but white people can't be Black. So it's like what does it look like to really shift and, like, have authentic conversations that center marginalized people? And it's interesting. I was talking to some colleagues a little while ago and was talking about the concept of, like, decentering whiteness, and they were like, "What do you mean?" And I was like, "A large way that we center whiteness is just in our language, right?" Like, a lot of the terms and things that we've created, we create those terms to avoid Blackness and to avoid the reality of harm. So it's like, we'll have these conversations and we'll talk about--you know, we'll say bias when it's like--and bias is, it fits technically, but what you're also talking about is, like, white supremacy or just racism, right? Like, we're not talking about--this isn't, like--like, bias softens it sometimes. In certain ways, bias softens it in the same way that, like, you know, it's not like I have a bias towards Coca-Cola versus RC Cola. Like, no, I genuinely think this person is less than me and, by relation, because of that, I treat this person differently. Like, that's different. And, you know, even--yeah, so anyway, not to go on a rant. So I do think this segues well though into your podcast, Dirty Diversity.Dr. Gassam: Yes. Yeah, so I actually started the podcast during Black History Month, and it was important for me to not only start it during Black History Month, but, like, the first episode was ironically, like, why your Black employees are leaving, because I don't think that we're talking about these things, and I think that we conflate people [of color?] with Black people, and we lump everyone together, I think for the sake of, like, conversation, it's easier to just say "Black and brown people," and it is, because a lot of these--your closeness to Blackness will impact your experiences, you know? And there's Latinx people who are stopped as much as us when they're driving, who experience racism just like us and things like that. So, you know, I think it's easy to say that, but I think it's important to put a particular focus on the unique experiences of Black people, and I don't think we do that enough, and when I'm asked to do these trainings there isn't a focus on--when that is the problem, Zach, it's that you're not able to retain Black employees. They're leaving, but you want me to come in and do inclusion training. Your problem is not inclusion. The problem is you're not creating an environment where Black people feel like they're valued and they matter, so we need to focus on that specific problem, and I think that watering it down is what we've been doing for so long, and that hasn't produced positive results or changes, so we have to just be bold and call it out for what it is. And I'm so excited, because I feel like I have been censoring myself--I censor myself on social media a lot because my colleagues follow me, so I can't be like, "White supremacy--" I can't be using that language a lot because, you know, my colleagues [?] me and all of these things, and I know in my field that's gonna get you--that sort of thing is not gonna sit well with... but now I feel like I can say what I really want to say, especially in the workshops, and I think that that's gonna make people [uncomfortable,] but for me, my goal isn't to make people feel happy. My goal is to help you change and help you create better organizations, and the way to do that is I'm gonna have to say things that are uncomfortable and you're gonna have to evaluate your role and how you've contributed to inequitable systems and oppression and things like that. And for a lot of people this is the first time that they've ever taken a look in the mirror, and just with speaking with different white women, they've said--and they're millennials, you know? Like, they're young, and they're like, "This is the first time I've really taken an honest look at myself, and even though I have Black friends and, you know, I dated a Black guy, you know, maybe I have white supremacist views," and it's like, "Yes, you do." Every white person who's born and raised in the U.S. have internalized white supremacist views, and a lot of it is just baked into our American fabric, so it's, like, recognizing that and using your privilege and your power to impact change.Zach: And, you know, I think that really leads us well into the book that you recently--I think by the time this airs it'll be published, so, like, let's talk about the book.Dr. Gassam: Yeah, and thank you again for the opportunity to just share my work with your audience. You know, I was--it was important to create the book, but now I'm already [thinking about] book #2 and how it needs to focus specifically on race. So I wrote "Dirty Diversity" as, like, a very simple, practical guide [for] implementable ways that you can create more inclusion and equity into your workplace. The thing that I've learned in the years that I've been--I've been in consulting now for, like, two years or so, and I've learned so much. When I started doing these diversity workshops, I knew nothing. I didn't know anyone personally that was close to me that did any sort of--I didn't know consultants like that, you know? Just people I went to school with who work at large consulting firms, but I didn't know independent consultants, so I had to figure a lot of things out on my own. I had to bump my head multiple times. So the book is written in three different sections, and the first section is for managers, and it's things that are so simple and easy to implement into your workplace you might say, "Why didn't we think about this?" Or "Why haven't we been doing this?" But it's simple ways to create more inclusion in your workplace. The next section is for people who do diversity, equity and inclusion consulting and things that I've learned from creating workshops and ways that you can improve the effectiveness of the workshops, but one of the things that I emphasize is that one workshop or one training is not gonna make a change. You have to encourage the organizational leaders to do multiple trainings and multiple workshops. And then the third section is written for employees and just, like, simple ways and simple things you can include in your workplace to create more inclusion as an employee, 'cause I get that question a lot where people say, "How do I get my manager to care about diversity? And how do I get my manager to--" And I think that it's not just get managers to care and to--it's understanding the value of what this can bring into your workplace, but there are things that you can do yourself. Like, you know, I talk about an employee book club, and that's something, like, super easy, and maybe petitioning your employee to sponsor an Audible membership--because everybody doesn't read. For me, most of my books I consume them now on Audible. So, like, if you have an Audible membership, you don't have an excuse now to say, "Oh, I didn't have time to read." You could, like, take a [?] minute walk and listen to a chapter of a book. It's very easy now to me to, like--for things as an employee that you can implement into your workplace. So I felt like this book was really necessary, and I didn't--I had no idea all of these events would be transpiring right now, so I feel like it's even more relevant. And there's so many--in the book I talk about some really simple things, low cost or no cost things, that you can implement to create more inclusion, and I think that there's a perception that you have to spend a lot of money--which I do think you should be adequately compensating your consultants that come in, and a lot of times people ask me to come in and they expect it to be free, so I think that is part of the problem, but there are things you can do, like having a panel in your workplace. That's something that is a really simple way to create inclusion that you probably didn't think about. Inviting someone like you, Zach, to come in to speak with employees on a panel just about equity and inclusion and different things like that is just, like, an event your company can host, and often times on panels people are donating time or, you know, giving up their time for free. So, like, there's so many simple ways. It doesn't have to be this, like, extravagant sort of, like, training program that could help you to create equity and inclusion. So that's pretty much, like, the goal. It's a simple read. It's, like, a little over 100 pages, and I think it's just filled with things that you can do and can easily implement into your workplace to create more equity and inclusion. I mean, I'm excited to--I've already got a copy, okay? So we're gonna--Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach.Zach: No, no, thank you, and so we're gonna make sure we put a link in the show notes for everybody to get a copy as well. And the book's title though--is the book's title "Dirty Diversity?"Dr. Gassam: Yes. So same title as the podcast. The reason I titled is "Dirty Diversity" is because diversity has definitely become a dirty word. People are not into having diversity trainings. There's a misconception about what diversity is, what it brings to an organization. There's still diversity resistance and pushback. So when you say, "We're gonna have a diversity training," people in their minds have an idea of what that is. There's a lot of research that indicates diversity trainings are not effective. So I really was kind of focused on, like, what are some things, in addition to workshops and trainings, that you can--what are some ways you can create more inclusion? Because I kind of resent the fact that--I've seen this meme going around, and I disagree--I think it's cute and it's funny, but it's like, "The revolution will not be in diversity and inclusion training," and I disagree with that. [both laugh] Have you seen that meme before? Zach: I have. I don't--I hear you though.Dr. Gassam: I was like--I don't agree fully. I think when done effectively workshops--if you're having workshops every month in addition to a multitude of other things like mentorship programs, I think they can be effective.Zach: I think authentic, intentional workshops paired with other systemic solutions are effective. I think most people when they think about these workshops, they're not talking about the type of work that you do or the type of work that, like, Dr. Erin Thomas at Upwork, that she does, thinking more about the--you know, the very white comfort-centered diversity of thought -type workshops. Those are not gonna lead us to no revolution, but I agree with you about, you know, intentional, intelligent, competent workshops along with other things are very effective.Dr. Gassam: Yeah, yeah, and that's--you know, that was my thought. You know, everybody's kind of--you know, and I try not to curse, but everyone's kind of, like, crapping on diversity and inclusion trainings, and I do think that in itself one training is not gonna change anything, but the problem is those companies don't even have ongoing trainings or workshops. They have one once a year if that. A lot of them have never had any sort of training, yet every year they have sexual harassment training, which I find to be interesting, you know? Zach: Well, it's typically to check a box, right, from, like, a legal perspective. Like, that's typically what they're doing so they can at least say, "Well, we do this, and we do it regularly," you know? It's not really about any type of behavioral change.Dr. Gassam: Exactly. Yeah, so it's like to check a box. So really, like, how to overcome this idea that diversity has become a dirty word. What are some really simple things? And I'm telling you, it's such a practical, simple--I'm not using any, like, jargon that you wouldn't be able to understand. It's very, like, a simple guide. You open it, you read it and say, "Oh, this is something, like, so simple. Why aren't we already doing this in our company?" But you'd be surprised. To me, like, something, like, a blind resume system. When people tell me they can't find Black candidates, can't find Black engineers, I'm like, "Do you have a blind resume system?" And they're like, "No, what's that?" And that to me is something that I think is so simple but a lot of people just don't know. So that's really, like, what the purpose of me writing this book was. Like, simple things that you think a lot of people know but they might not, and it's just, like, so simple to implement into your workplace. It's not complicated at all outside of just workshops that you can do to create more inclusion.Zach: Man, this has been super dope. What else do we need to talk about, Dr. Gassam? 'Cause I want to make sure I give you your space. So we talked about--Dr. Gassam: So much! Thank you. [both laugh] You know, there's so much. All of the performative allyship, all of the--Zach: Oh, yeah. Let's go in on that real quick actually. Yeah, no, this is good. So side note, y'all, for those who are kind of behind the scenes. Typically I send out, like, these very detailed questions before each podcast, but, you know, for people that like--you know, we kick it or, like, we kind of get each other's style or energy, we kind of freestyle. So this is actually a freestyle, y'all. That's why we're, like, actively trying to think about what we talk about next. We have a little bit more time. Dr. Gassam: And I really appreciate that, and we'll talk about how to support each other after we get into the performative allyship.Zach: Yo, let's do that. Okay, so this performative allyship stuff is crazy, right? Like, I'm so tired of these people--and you know what's really wild? It's like--what we don't talk about is, like, just... we don't talk about this enough I think just, like, culturally, the importance of authenticity, right? So, like, I've had people who have harmed me with their racist behaviors hit me up now talking about, "Hey, just thinking about you." Like, what are you talking about? Why are you talking to me, and why would the first thing when you reach out to me not about the harm that you caused, that you KNOW you caused? These are, like, [?], right? Like, these are things that, like, you gravely harmed me personally and professionally, right? It's not like you walked by, you touched my hair and said, "Oh, this is like my little pet lamb's hair back in my Meemaw's house." Like, no. This is "You harmed me." And so it's wild, like, that we have--how members of the majority... go ahead.Dr. Gassam: I know. It's just like--I'm getting a lot of people hitting me up, like, that are--you know those people that are in the periphery of your life? They're not in your life, but they're just, like, there watching from the--I get a lot of those, and there are people who have actively done things to prevent me from being successful, and they reach out to me, or on the other end people are asking of me, and I won't get into too many details, just, you know, to protect myself, but there are people who are actively asking things of me without consideration of the events that transpired. You're asking for projects from me and things like that, and I'm like, "Well, I'm not in a mental state--" And I've had to send emails like that where I'm like, "I'm not in the mental state to produce what you're asking me to produce because there are Black people being killed and slaughtered, videos," you know? And I just--and it's "Oh, my gosh! You're so right! I didn't even realize it! Oh, my gosh. Like, it's all because of Trump. This would have never happened if Obama was president!" [Zach sighs] And it's like... I mean, it did happen when Obama was president.Zach: It happened a lot [?] though.Dr. Gassam: I was just like... "Okay, but thanks." So I get those, where people are completely, like, oblivious to what's going on and what's happening and how maybe the Black [people] you know are impacted by this, so maybe I shouldn't be asking for X, Y and Z, and I've had to let people know, but I've also seen, yeah, like you said, people who have actively caused harm to you, "Hey, how are you?" Without any acknowledgement of what was done, what was said, your role in how you contributed. Lots of snakes in the grass.Zach: A lot of snakes in the grass! I think also just, like, the psychological--and, like, I don't even think, like, even just considering the additional mental and emotional toll you put on that other person when you do that. So, like, now, as the person who's receiving your random message after a year or after six months or however long, now I have to do the mental calculus if I'm gonna even gonna respond and then make a decision if I respond, "How vulnerable do I want to make myself in responding to you?" Knowing that if I respond to you and you get upset it could harm me even more. So it's just so... so that alone is, like, ugh, such a rant. Such a rant-worthy topic. I do think that it's, like, when we talk about allyship and--I just wonder, are people--I'm not curious about it. This is my belief. I don't believe that members of the majority have the capacity to, like, really deal with being explicitly anti-racist for more than, like... like, for a sustained amount of time, right? Like, you're already seeing on Twitter, people are getting burnt out. Like, "Ugh, I know that you guys are probably tired, but here are some tips that you can--" [Dr. Gassam laughs] "Make sure you drink your [?] tea."Dr. Gassam: You're absolutely right, and it's exhausting in that--and I know a lot of white people are confused, because in one breath we say, "You should be checking on your Black friends," but in another breath it's like we're getting binged and pinged and all of this, like, left and right, and then you have to keep having to revisit the conversation of, like, you know, "Why aren't you answering my text messages? I hit you up to check on you." 'Cause I don't want to keep talking about the same--like, I appreciate that you reached out. I don't--I'm not in the mental state. I want to go on a bike ride and just have the sun on my face and just not think about Black people being killed. I just want to listen to a podcast while riding a bike. Sometimes you just don't want to keep talking about, keep talking about it, and what I've found is that--it's interesting, companies want to give us space to talk about without asking us if this is something we want to take part in. A close friend of mine worked in a healthcare system, and she said her company was like, "Hey, can you be on this panel? It's all Black people talking about their families," and it's like, "I don't want--like, why do I gotta--you don't even--" Like, it's really like, "Hey, we want you to be part of this panel." "No, I don't want to." I had another friend who was asked to talk about white privilege, and she was like, "This isn't even my scope or my domain. I'm in PR. Why are you asking me to talk about white privilege? This isn't even, like--what, just because I'm a Black woman you want, "Oh, yeah, have her talk about--"" She was like, "What?" And I had to send out an email to somebody that asked me to a part of a panel, and I didn't want to be mean, but I was like, "When you're asking me to regurgitate and keep repeating why I feel bad as a Black person living in America, like, you should be paying me," you know what I'm saying? And I know that sounds like--it's not a matter of being all about the money, but it's a matter of, like, this is emotional labor, and this takes an emotional toll on me to be on 80 million eleven panels talking about why, what I feel as a Black person and all of this, and it's just like--the idea of paying a Black person doesn't often cross these people's minds who are organizing these events, and I'm just like--at this point, like, my mind [?] so busy with these workshops--and also I teach as well, so it's like with teaching and doing the workshops and promoting the book, like, I'm not gonna just be on a panel talking about how sad I am and my experiences as a Black person. There's so many thinkpieces online with people giving this information to you already. You don't need me on a panel to talk about what it feels like to be Black. And I hope I'm not being too raw, but it's just that's how I've been feeling lately.Zach: No, you're not being too raw at all. I see where you're going and I will meet you there. So look, folks who are asking--please stop asking us to talk about our feelings for free. I need y'all to stop. Many of you listen to the podcast, right? And, like, when I say you I mean aspiring allies and white executives. Stop. Now, look, especially--like, not to be classist, but especially don't be asking a bunch of degreed people to be doing it. Like, that's crazy. You have people out here who have whole doctorates in sociology and psychology and you're asking them to come on these panels for free. It's like, "No." Like, "I have the Western colonized expertise from an actual [?] institution, and couple that with the expertise of my lived experience, when you ask me for my time, I need you to pay me. Don't even ask." I've had people ask me for my time to do things and I'm like, "First of all, do you understand how much--" Like, I'm gonna feel drained after this, because I'm gonna talk about all these things and no one's gonna come back to me with, like, any tangible resources or support. It's just gonna be me, like, giving out.Dr. Gassam: And it's like--you have a podcast where you talk about all these things. You invite people to talk. You have--and then it's, like, on top of that you write about these things, on top of that you work full-time, on top of that you're a father and you have a wife. It's just, like, y'all gotta think about all of these things. It's like, "Hey, can you explain to me, like--" No, I can't. I'm sorry.Zach: No, I can't. And shameless plug, like, Living Corporate, it's not like we're just, like, a random podcast. Like, you can go on our website and type in anything and a bunch of stuff will pop up. Like, we have a whole database, so you can educate yourself, and, like, there's other free resources. I think it's so inappropriate during this time, like, going back to what you said earlier about organizations and, like, predominantly white leadership who have, like, either intentionally or unintentionally been the cause for people to exit their places of work are now, like, sending out these emails with a bunch of different options to have quote-unquote "real talk sessions," and, like, who made you a luminary on the subject one, but then two, like, why do you just presume that I even want to do this? But the challenge, Dr. Gassam, is, like, there's also the reality--which we don't talk about enough, and, like, shout-out to Brittany J. Harris of The Winters Group. I see you. She talked about it, like, explicitly--this was some months ago--about the fact that, like, power is, like, the silent "P" in DE&I, right? It's like--we don't talk about the fact that, like, yo, if a senior executive sends out something to talk, have one of these conversations, there's gonna be a certain percentage of marginalized people who feel pressured to join it simply because the person who sent out the invite is in power, right? Like, there's a power dynamic that we don't want to address, and also when you ask people to do things--like, nine times out of ten the Black and brown folks you ask to do this type of work or, like, to randomly jump in this and it's not even their expertise, they're gonna feel pressured to say yes because you're in charge, and then when they show up to do whatever you want them to talk about, white privilege, their own lived experience, whatever, they're going to be pressured to not be as honest as they would even like to be because they know that they might get fired or they may be opportunities withheld from them if they say the wrong thing.Dr. Gassam: Exactly, exactly, and I'm actually doing a workshop tomorrow, and the two individuals who reached out to me to do the workshop, they had told me they don't want to be part of the facilitation because there are--there's 500 people who are a part of this workshop, and they're worried because in their industry it's, of course, not what you know it's who you know, and I sympathized with them 100,000% because I'm still--you know, I work in an institution, and I can't fully say--I can't go out and jump on a limb and say everything that I would want to say because of that power piece and because I know that there's still many people who are uncomfortable when you're speaking the truth and when you're trying to--so it's like you can only say but so much, and unfortunately it's like--we need the raw, and we need it to the point, and I'm glad people are more open to that right now, but it's still, like, a concern for us and for people who do this work and, you know, even you as a--not only as an employee but as someone in the podcast space, I'm sure there's topics that you can venture into but not too, too much because you don't--Zach: Oh, Dr. Gassam. Ooooh, bay-bay. [laughs]Dr. Gassam: You know? 'Cause it's like, "I know my audience." You know, there's stuff--I'm sure there's a lot of stuff you want to say but you just--one day [I'ma?] have a tell-all.Zach: Listen, one day--no, I literally tweeted this the other day, I said, "One day I'ma let these @s fly." Like, I'ma really talk to y'all. But no, you're absolutely right, the power dynamic, it dictates, like, literally everything. So, like, you know, I talk differently now because I work--I have a 9-to-5 job. Like, the day that I do Living Corporate full-time, I'm still not gonna be able to talk as free because I'm gonna have clients, and my clients need to know and respect the fact that, you know, I won't air them out one day, you know what I mean? So, like, the only time that I think you ever really hear, like, Black people speak the truth, like, unabashed truth is when they have a lot of money, right? So you think about--you know, you think about, like, the Will Smiths and Kevin Harts and Dave Chappelles and Eddie Murphys of the world, the people who just--or people who just don't care at all, and those voices are needed, but it's just, like, I can't shame people for not being 100,000% raw all of the time when, like, our survival is predicated on some degree of white comfort. It just is. We can't just say--we can't speak the truth like we want to. Like, I believe I speak the truth pretty consistently, don't get me wrong, but there are certainly--like, I'm halfway joking, but there are things that I would like to be much more explicit about, but I can't, you know? Especially [because] I have a daughter, you know what I mean? You have to be careful. So let's talk about this. Let's talk about supporting each other during this time. So we're talking about, like, the emotional labor that we sometimes get pressured into performing or just the increased emotional labor during this time, but also just the general amount of labor just in being Black and brown in majority white spaces. When you asked or when you kind of suggested talking about supporting one another, like, what comes to mind for you?Dr. Gassam: So many things. You know, I think that besides the Candice Owens and some of these people out here that maybe don't [?]--Zach: Oh, my gosh. Please don't ever say her name again. Nope.Dr. Gassam: [laughing] I'm sorry. Some of these people, you know, these people, I think for the most part we got us, and the community that we're building and that we've built and the support that I feel from my fellow Black people just makes me really proud to be Black, and I have to say that in a lot of the--in April I was offering these complimentary workshops because I was transitioning from in-person trainings and workshops to online and I was acclimating and getting myself used to Zoom. So I was like, "You know, if your company wants a complimentary workshop just reach out." And let me tell you, I did 7 complementary workshops that month, and all of the people that reached out to me were Black women. I love that Black women are always, always at the forefront of putting other--we're always... I feel like we have such big hearts and we're always trying to, like, save the world, and people need to listen to us more, but I just think that in a moment like this, the support and the camaraderie that I'm seeing among Black people but particularly among Black women is just what, like, warms my heart and reminds me why, despite all of the B.S. and what we're going through, I'm so proud to be a Black person and to be a Black woman. So I think that just supporting each other, supporting Black businesses and things like that, just reaching out to your Black friends, I think--one of the many things that I love about us is, like, we're gonna have fun and find entertainment in anything, and I've been like--we've been crying a lot, but I just find that we just make anything into, like, something funny, into a joke. Like, after the Verzuz of Beenie Man and Bounty Killer, I was just, like, so entertained by the memes and the gifs, and I was just like, "I love us." Like, we are just so funny, and we're just like--so that's, I think, like, the fact that us coming together and just laughing and doing things that bring us joy and just, you know, the community I think right now is we're building that and we're creating these groups, and so I think that we should all be doing one thing that makes us feel joy, and whether that's, like, meeting up with a friend, grabbing some ice cream, riding a bike, I've been trying to do that more and more. And just, like, [supporting] each other. I have friends that reach out to me and say, "Hey, I want to bring you into my company," and it's like, just that support of, like, "I see you, I see the work that you're doing and I'm trying to put you on," is I think what we need more of and what I've been seeing a lot, and I just love that.Zach: Man, I love it too, and, you know, with that being said, if you haven't yet, make sure that you get a copy of "Dirty Diversity," Dr. Gassam's--it's your first published book, right?Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach. Yes, my very first published book, so I'm awaiting--it is gonna be available Juneteenth, on June 19th, and both the e-book and the paperback will be available on Amazon, but I'm also awaiting Audible approval because I recorded the audiobook, so I'm just waiting on that process now. Hopefully it'll all be good by June 19th, but I think by the time this episode drops it'll be available via Audible as well.Zach: Well, that's dope, and yeah, we'll make sure that we signal boost any of the promotions and advertising for it on Juneteenth, and then we'll also make sure that y'all check out Dr. Gassam's Dirty Diversity podcast. So Dr. Gassam, you know what I'm saying, she's way more fancy than me, so her guests--I mean, we have great guests, don't get me wrong. We have amazing guests, so let me not play, but I'm just saying, like, she's--Dr. Gassam: Yeah, you guys have amazing, amazing guests.Zach: We have dope guests, but I'm saying your guests are nothing to sniff at, you know what I'm saying? So make sure y'all check out Dr. Gassam, you know?Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach. I really appreciate it. Thank you for amplifying our voices and trying to use our platform to put more of us on. I think that that's an inspiration to me, and that's what I think we should all be doing, using our platforms and our power to put other people on, you know, other, our people on. But thank you so much, Zach, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your weekend.Zach: Yo, same to you. Listen, y'all, this has been Zach with Living Corporate. You know what we do. We're having these conversations weekly. So again, this might be your first time listening to Living Corporate, so as a reminder or as an FYI, we have Real Talk Tuesdays--that's when we have these, like, you know, 1-on-1 conversations. We then have Tristan's Tips on Thursdays, and then we have The Link Up with Latesha or See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger on Saturdays. Like, those kind of interchange, and so we have essentially three different series a week, so make sure you reach out. We're all over Beyonce's internet, you know? Just type in Living Corporate, we're gonna pop up. And then yeah, you've been listening to Dr. Janice Gassam, public speaker, entrepreneur, educator, consultant, podcaster, and writer of "Dirty Diversity." That's also the podcast. Make sure y'all check out all the links in the show notes. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with award-winning journalist and author Pamela Newkirk to discuss the historical failure of diversity and inclusion. They talk a bit about her 2019 work "Diversity, Inc.: The Failed Promise of a Billion-Dollar Business," and Pamela explains how and why transparent metrics across the board are the first step to actively addressing any diversity problem. She also implores institutions that truly want to embrace diversity to just stop doing what they've been doing and lean into the successful models that can be readily replicated that already exist out there. Check the links in the show notes to find out more about Pamela's work!Connect with Pamela on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook.Interested in Pamela's books? Click here to read more about them on Amazon.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and it's a Tuesday. You know, it's interesting--as a sidenote, y'all, you know, we pride ourselves in recording content in bulk, and, you know, we had a lot of different, interesting content that we were gonna share, but because of just where we are, we had to really shift some things. So thank you in advance for the folks being gracious with us, 'cause I know we'll--you know, a little bit behind the scenes. You know, we'll tell folks when we post and things of that nature, and we've had to change a lot of different things just because of where we are as a nation. And, you know, with that being said, y'all should know, if you don't know maybe you're a first-time listener. We actually are a platform that exists to center and amplify marginalized voices at work, and of course, again, considering where we are today, this work is all the more important, and we're really blessed and excited for the guest that we have today, Ms. Pamela Newkirk. Pamela Newkirk is an award-winning journalist whose articles have been published in the New York Newsday, the New York Times, and other publications. She's written a book called Spectacle, which was named one of the best books of 2015 by NPR, the San Francisco Chronicle, the Boston Globe, and The Root. It won an NAACP Image Award. She's the editor of Letters From Black America and A Love No Less:" More Than Two Centuries of African-American Love Letters and is the author of Within the Veil: Black Journalists, White Media, which won the National Press Book Club award for media criticism. In addition to this, and what we're really excited to talk to her about today, she is the author of the 2019 incredible seller Diversity Inc.: The Failed Promise of a Billion-Dollar Business. Ms. Newkirk, how are you?Pamela: I'm fine considering all that's going on in the world. Zach: I hear you. I'm exhausted, frustrated, anxious. I'm still somehow hopeful though.Pamela: Yeah, you know, I think that's kind of where I'm coming out on this. I have seen more progress over the past few days than I have in the 20 years that I've been writing about diversity and race and inclusion. Like, suddenly it seems to be breaking through, and I think there is no longer a place to hide and to pretend you're innocent or ignorant about what African-Americans are living through day-by-day. You know, as if the George Floyd travesty, tragedy, was not enough, we're still seeing constantly these videotaped images of police officers, you know, brutalizing peaceful protestors. So it's like suddenly it's all out in the open, and while those of us who have been living this for our entire lives, none of this is new to us. We've been saying it. We've been documenting it. But for some reason, the constellation of incidents, you know, from Amy Cooper to Ahmaud Arbery to then the most shocking, horrifying video of George Floyd being murdered on camera, this, you know, continuing saga of the African-American experience, to finally break through to the mainstream of white America. Zach: You know, it's interesting that you go there, 'cause I was curious, you know, in your book, Diversity Inc., you talk about the adverse impacts of unconscious bias training and how it's been proven to be ineffective, and yet that still seems to be, like, the mainstay or, like, for some organizations, like, their crown jewel. Like, they build everything around unconscious bias, the concept of unconscious bias, training around unconscious bias, you know, language that really focuses on bias only being unconscious.Pamela: Right. It's like drive-through diversity. You know, drive-by diversity. That's what the civil rights lawyer Cyrus Merry calls it. Companies are willing to spend billions of dollars every year on all of these, you know, the apparatus of diversity, but they're not willing to devote their money to interventions to actually doing diversity, actually hiring a diverse workforce. It's not that complicated, it's not rocket science, and yet, you know, we live in a world where you can go on Google and find out almost anything, and yet even in major cities companies pretend that they cannot find, you know, diverse candidates. It's really absurd, and I think, you know, that the level of frustration and the number of people out on the streets is now really shining a bright light on injustice writ large. It's not only the injustice of police brutality. Racial injustice has just been normalized, you know? Whether it's African-Americans dying of COVID at, you know, 4x the rate of whites, whether it's the radical underrepresentation of African-Americans in practically every professional field. You know, the health disparities. You go down the line, and we have, for centuries, normalized this as if it's, like, determined by God that we should have, you know, these kinds of disparities when it really is a function of policies and practices that are human-made, right?Zach: Right, right. No, I agree with you. You know, I want to ask you a question about the book title before we get to the next question. It's Diversity Inc.: The Failed Promise of a Billion-Dollar Business. Can we talk about what promise corporate D&I has failed to deliver on?Pamela: Oh, God. You name it. I mean... so, you know, in doing the book, I wanted to interrogate the tension between the rhetoric of diversity, the apparatus of diversity, you know, the diversity czars and the diversity studies and the diversity reports and the diversity organizations and all of this--you know, this huge apparatus. You know, the climate surveys, the training. I wanted to look at--you know, we're devoting so much time to that, and why we consistently fail to achieve diversity. Like, what's going on? Why are we spending billions of dollars on something that has been shown year after year to fail? Like, it just... it seems ludicrous, but yet, you know, you have a company like Google that will spend more than 100 million dollars a year on diversity initiatives and year-after-year end up with a workforce in which African-Americans are, like, 2% of the employees in tech. Like, how do you spend that much money and fail so spectacularly year after year, and could that money instead be used to actually hire... [laughs] Silly me! Like, do you really need to train 30 and 40 and 50-year-olds to think differently about people of color who are just, like, totally missing in those spaces? How about bringing some of those people in those spaces? And guess what, they're gonna have to learn how to deal with them. They would be their colleagues. Like, I don't need to be trained on how to deal with diverse populations, but I do need a job, and if I am in a workplace that has people from different walks of life and different races and different, you know, whatever, I mean, I will learn how to deal with that. I don't need to be trained.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting, because to your point, we talk about this training. It doesn't go anywhere, and frankly I'm frustrated by the space. And so as I continue to look at it I see certain patterns, and it seems almost like diversity and inclusion is a space where--I'm gonna paint with broad brushes here, but you know what? It's my podcast and I can do that. So it seems as if diversity and inclusion as an industry is, like, a space where white women can go to, like, help them with their careers or to help give them certain levels of access or profile. So I've explicitly seen white women, like, talk about diversity and inclusion at, like, these big platforms, like, at Davos, right? And they'll stand up there and they'll say something fairly pedestrian if not outright obvious, but they're applauded for it, and it's like they're applauded by other white people. So it's almost like a community within itself, right? Like, they use a lot of language that we really don't understand.Pamela: Right, and worse than that. I'm gonna go further on your podcast. [both laugh] Diversity has come to mean everything and nothing. What is diversity? Most institutions don't even agree on what diversity is. Diversity could be more women, more white women, diversity could be more LGBTQ, and they can be white. Diversity could be people with mental or physical, you know, issues, and they can be white. So diversity can totally eclipse racial diversity and still, to many institutions, qualify as diversity. You know, the diversity czar at Apple went so far as to say 12 blonde blue-eyed white men could illustrate diversity because of their different backgrounds. So this diversity has--which is why, in my book, I focus on racial diversity, because I think race has sort of been set aside, you know? Because supposedly after the election of Barack Obama we were suddenly a post-race nation. You know, people are not saying that anymore. No, not today, but they were saying that, you know, for 8 years, and here we are, you know, with the same issues and with the needle barely moving for decades in most influential fields, whether we're talking about journalism or academia or museums or the law firms. Like, look around, and while all of these institutions will wave the diversity flag, very few of them are diverse.Zach: Right, especially when you start looking higher and higher, right? So when you start looking at spaces for the folks who actually make decisions and really are responsible--like, who own a P&L, like, that's where you start just seeing--I mean, you may at best see a sprinkling of non-white people, and that's not even to say black people. You might only see a sprinkle of just non-white people. And so I'm curious, when we talk about this space, and you kind of alluded to it when I asked you about how you're feeling and talked about hope, but I want to talk about the fact that we had Howard Bryant, ESPN senior contributor, NPR contributor, on the podcast on Saturday, and I shared that I think right now is a watershed moment essentially exposing how by and large inept diversity and inclusion is at really engaging black and brown employees explicitly. And I'm curious, do you think that we're in such a moment?Pamela: You know, I'm hopeful. Of course, you know, the proof is gonna be in the pudding, you know, whether we actually see change, but I do--you know, I'm heartened by seeing so many white people even out on the streets, you know, protesting. You know, that's not something that we've seen. You know, Black Lives Matter has really been limited to black and brown people who have been out there on the frontlines of that battle, and it's almost as if white people have, like, cast themselves as sort of innocent bystanders in this whole racial conversation. Like, they have, like, really nothing to do with it when they have everything to do with it, and so it's really encouraging to me to at least see whites engaging in a way that I have not seen in my lifetime.Zach: It's incredible that you say that. I was speaking to my father this morning, and he said, "Son, I'm 55 years old, and I've never seen this in my life." It's incredible. So here's what's scary, police been beating us, you know, since antebellum, but to see white folks out there getting beat down alongside us...Pamela: Yeah, but we have to remember that white abolitionists were treated [just?] as badly, you know? During slavery, white abolitionists were killed, you know, just as readily as black people were. So it's really not that unusual. What's unusual is that they're out there, you know? They're out there holding signs saying "Black Lives Matter." I mean, that, I do think it's a watershed moment just for that. I think there are people who are being really cynical about the level of activism we're seeing, saying they're performing, you know, racial politics or whatever. All I know is that they hadn't done that in all of the days of my life, and so the fact that many are now openly expressing their horror in a way that they should have all along--I mean, no doubt, but the fact that they're doing it now, I welcome it, because, like, hello, welcome to, you know, your humanity, you know? We're all implicated in this, and black people should never have been the only ones to single out police brutality, racial inequality, the radical underrepresentation in all of these workplaces. That, you know, injustice affects all of us. And, I mean, I do understand that white people have benefitted from inequality, but they're also paying the price of inequality as well. I mean, you know, no justice no peace. There won't be peace in the land as long as you have a system that's so blatantly unjust. Zach: And so, you know, you talked about white folks coming out and supporting and having Black Lives Matter. I'ma tell you, Ms. Newkirk, when I knew it was a thing was when this Amish came out there. [both laugh] I said, "How did y'all even get the word?"Pamela: I guess what got me was the thousands of people in Berlin, you know? And in Paris and in London. You know? Australia. I mean, around the world, you know, the whole world is watching.Zach: And so, you know, we've talked a little bit about what we think this is. There are plenty of organizations, right, that are--and I say this as someone who, because of my network, I'm able to see... like, I know the diversity and inclusion consulting spaces and stuff out there, right? And I'm seeing there's a sharp uptick in demand for [?]. Pamela: Oh, my God. My phone is ringing off the hook and I don't do diversity training, and I tell them I don't do diversity training. "If you've read my book, you'd know how I felt about it." But I know a lot of people who do it and, you know, you're welcome to, like, speak to them. I'm all in for a candid conversation about what you can do differently to change the game, but I don't think it's something that you need someone in week after week--I mean, if that's gonna help you get to a place where you actually, you know, create opportunity for non-white people, if that's what it's gonna take, fine, but all of the studies have pretty much conclusively shown that training doesn't work. The numbers they report year after year show that training doesn't work too because most Fortune 500 companies have been doing this training for years and the numbers don't budge. And yeah, there's that Harvard study by Frank Dobbin that shows that these studies, especially when it's mandatory training, it triggers a backlash among white men who, instead of supporting diversity, it makes them even more resentful of it. And even worse, the study showed that 5 years after this training, the percentage of black women and Asian men and women actually decreased, their numbers in management. So why are companies doing the same things and expecting different results?Zach: And it's interesting because they're coming in and they're doing that, right? Like, the same training. I agree that ultimately--the whole idea of "We need to come and have a dialogue" is frustrating, because I feel like we've dialoguing--I'm 30, and I feel like we've been dialoguing for a long time.Pamela: Oh, my God. I've been in journalism and higher ed for more than 30 years, longer than you've been alive, and it's the same conversation. It's the same conversation from, you know, the 1960s, you know? And I guess the optimistic way of looking at it is--and, you know, after the uprising in the 1960s when the doors finally opened to people of color in fields that had historically excluded them, we did see, you know, the numbers jump up, you know, considerably. We saw more African-Americans, Latinos and others going to colleges, you know, entering fields that they had been excluded from, but as that progress became to metastastize, then we came into the '80s and we had this backlash against diversity, you know, under Reagan, and we had this, you know, systemic dismantling of every policy, every practice.Zach: All those social programs got gutted, yeah.Pamela: Yes, everything got gutted, and then the backlash--we're still living in that backlash to the progress that had been made. So, you know, the interesting thing is that all of these institutions can turn on a dime when they're ready, when they want to. Like, we're seeing companies now suddenly devote millions of dollars. I just heard Bain is gonna, you know, donate 100 million to, you know, black causes, and all of these things are suddenly happening, so it's so easy for them to turn it around, to open that spigot, but what has been lacking is the leadership, the will, and the intention.Zach: Yeah, yeah. And to your point, right, we've seen this organizations--a lot of these organizations, these big ones, like, they solve big problems. They solve really big problems. But the frustrating thing for me I think is that we treat racism as an abstract, right? So we'll say things like, "Well, we just need to open our hearts and minds." It's like, "We don't really actually need to open our hearts and minds. We just need to tie these things back into tangible outcomes." You know, create and add new policies that hold and drive accountability, increase transparency, and make certain demands and expectations, right? Like I said, I'm alluding back to the Saturday episode, but it's just fresh in my mind, because I think about the fact that Howard Bryant, he said, you know, "The reason you come in [and] you don't sexually harass somebody isn't--you know, it may be because you're a decent person." [both laugh] Pamela: It may be, and it may be because you'll get fired.Zach: You know that there's gonna be consequences and repercussions if you come in here acting stupid, harassing women or harassing anybody, saying something inappropriate. You know that.Pamela: Exactly. And do you need a training program to tell you that?Zach: I genuinely don't, and I loathe every single one of them. But you're right.Pamela: Yeah, and the thing is it's not even that I'm just so against the idea of training--even though I kind of am, but if there was anything, any proof, that they actually helped realize diversity, I'd be all about it, you know? There are measures that we know work, and I just don't understand why we keep doing something that has not borne fruit and we ignore the things that do, and that leads me to believe that there's not an honest intention to actually realize diversity.Zach: I agree. So some of it to me is, like, when you talk about, like, programming for diversity, equity and inclusion, you know, it's typically some type of instructor-led training, but a lot of studies continue to show that being able to have authentic conversations and build stories, again, tying and really having the critical conversations to tie goals and values to policy, is really what drives results, but we're just still not there yet. I'm curious, again, there are plenty of organizations who are just now trying to build, like, some type of office, right? Some type of council or department or whatever you want to call it. What would you say are some of the biggest mistakes folks--and when I say folks I mean organizations--commit when they try to launch initiatives or departments or groups like this?Pamela: Yeah, I think the biggest mistake is that the leadership sort of farms out this diversity issue to the most marginalized person in the organization, which is usually the diversity czar, whatever they call the diversity professional in that organization. Usually that person is the most marginalized executive of the team. It's usually a person of color or a woman, and they usually don't have much power, and so don't do that, and if you're going to do that, if you're gonna go that route, then you have to empower that person to actually get results. One thing that we've seen from studies, there was a study done a year ago, a survey of Fortune 500 D&I professionals, and I think it was somewhere around 65% did not even have access to the metrics, the diversity metrics, in the organization they work for. So how could they hope to fix a problem that they can't even see, right? So they're shooting in the dark. We know the most effective way to tackle a diversity problem is first to have transparent metrics across job categories, across, you know, bonus systems, any kind of award systems. Who's getting, who's not? Right? You know, you have to look under the hood and see what's actually happening in these companies, because we know with unconscious bias you can keep blaming everything on unconscious bias, but whether it's conscious or unconscious, let's see how it's working in your organization. Only then can you hope to even have an intervention, you know? Whether it's in your promotion system, it's your hiring system, it's looking at, you know, who's even being interviewed for positions, you know? What kind of outreach are you doing? So you have to have transparent metrics across the board. It is the first step, and once you do that then you can hope to have the kind of interventions that will allow you to actively address the problem. It's what--I do a chapter on what happened at Coca-Cola after they were sued for racial discrimination, and part of the settlement was having this task force that oversaw what they were doing to correct the problem, and over 5 years they were able to make substantial improvements through a system of transparent metrics and accountability.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting because I think when we talk about metrics--and it goes back just to, like, the lack of inclusion in this work, but when you talk about metrics it presumes that the people who are measuring understand what they're measuring for, right? But if you have a group--and there's plenty of articles, you know, op-eds, analysis, reports, all kinds of things about just how behind the majority population on matters of race, so then why would that same population then be responsible for measuring the nuances of race and diversity? [both laugh]Pamela: Are you saying the fox is guarding the chicken coop? Is that what you're saying? [laughs]Zach: Absolutely. Absolutely it is.Pamela: Well, yeah. So if you're not allowing the person charged with increasing diversity, if you're not giving them access to those numbers, you know, you're hiding something for one thing, right? And you're handcuffing them. There's no way that they can hope to correct those issues without having that kind of information. I mean, that's just basic to their job, but yet you talk to most D&I people and they don't have access to that.Zach: And what's also interesting about that is that--I don't know, there's different levels, right? Because the other piece, you talked about power, and I've been--Living Corporate has been a bit more intentional in calling out, like, the ethics of power and how all of these things work, right? Because you just rarely ever see the person who's really driving diversity, equity and inclusion be somebody that really has authority, and they're not respected in the space because typically their role is something internal. You know, they're not necessarily driving any type of revenue, so they're not gonna really be heard. And on top of that sometimes compounded is the complexity that you have organizations that will get somebody who is black or brown, but again make them junior, so not only do they not have the formal hierarchal power, they don't even have the social capital that comes with being white to really navigate and do their jobs well because they're, you know, often times tokenized.Pamela: Right. It really comes down to leadership, because in any organization people know what matters and what doesn't matter, right? You know if a person really has power or if they just have a title. Like, it's not hard to figure out, you know, who you have to respect and who you can ignore and, you know, what they stand for, so it really does come down to leadership and if leaders are gonna continue to farm this issue out to marginalized people, be they consultants or, you know, a diversity person who really has no power, you know? We're not gonna see any progress in that space. And, I mean, looking at all of these fields that have not changed in all of this time, that has to be willful, and so it's gonna take will to change that, and I hope that we're living in a time now where people realize that, you know, this is not a sustainable situation.Zach: It's not, and that actually leads me to my next question. I want to quote an excerpt from your book. "The quest for racial diversity has long been an uphill crusade, but now it's waged in a far more polarized climate in which many whites now claim they are being disenfranchised as others are afforded undue advantage. An NPR poll conducted in 2017 found that 55% of white Americans believe that they are discriminated against while, tellingly, a lower percentage said that they actually have experienced discrimination. A Reuters survey in 2017 found that 39% of whites polled agreed with the statement that quote, "White people are currently under attack in this country," end quote." So I'm quoting this because the reality of this, I believe, is still showing up in 2020 in that a significant percentage of white D&I experts, quote-unquote, they have the opinion that white folks, particularly white men, need to be included, because if you don't include them, then you're essentially violating your own principles by excluding them. [both laugh] And so I'm curious, like, especially as we see an uptick in focus on black lives and really working--you know, there's a lot of folks downloading and buying books on anti-racism and, like, you know, there's really a push for that right now. Do you see this trend increasing?Pamela: Oh, definitely, but we're just weeks into it. [laughs] So I can't tell you where it's headed, you know? But I see that as a good thing, you know, because for years, for decades, you know, African-Americans and other scholars of color and journalists have been doing this work, and often times we're preaching to the choir, you know? And now to see so many whites leaning in to this scholarship and to the idea of anti-racism, not only, you know, relating to members of, you know, skinheads or the Ku Klux Klan, but could implicate the average white person, you know? Reading Robin DiAngelo's work, White Fragility, she talks about the ways in which whites perpetuate white supremacy, but they do it in a way that they feel they're just neutral in it. They don't see how they are helping by either their silence or by just holding these deeply embedded ideas about race and merit and who actually deserves the kind of privilege that many whites enjoy. Like, are they African-Americans? Maybe there are a few who they see as deserving the kind of privilege that they enjoy, but that's the exception, not the rule. So these ideas are so deeply embedded in the white American psyche that it will take, you know, some time to kind of dismantle an idealogy that has been rooted in the history of this country, right, from the very beginning, and these ideas did not bubble up from the ground up. They were taught in places like Harvard and Princeton and Yale and Columbia University, you know? So this whole idea of science, you know, was rooted in this notion of African inferiority and European superiority.Zach: Yeah, measuring skull size and all that kind of stuff.Pamela: Yeah, so we're not that far removed from that. That idealogy is still very much a part of the American ethos, and until that is exposed and examined by the people who hold those ideas, we're gonna continue to see it play out in so many ways.Zach: And to your point, when we talk about racism--there are folks who I have, colleagues, associates, whatever, right, and we'll talk about racism, and a lot of times we'll talk about it, like, in forms--like, "It's out there." Like, it's "out there." Like, that's why George Floyd--because of systemic racism, that's why George Floyd was murdered in the street on camera with no accountability until we had riots, but the challenge and I think the next step as we look at this work, to your point around, like, really addressing and interrogating it, is analyzing what the same systems that allow those types of things to happen, the Amy Coopers of the world, those systems persist here too in work. Pamela: Exactly, and it's being able to kind of position yourself within the space. Like, where are you? Like, how do you benefit from this system, and what do you do with your privilege? And it's not enough just not to be actively racist. Like, in what ways are you anti-racist? In what ways are you working to dismantle injustice? And that's the next step for the so-called decent whites who I don't think are, you know, actively racist, but they're complicit in a racially injustice system through their silence, through their inaction. They work in these spaces, and they're not using their forums and their positions to tackle something that is so persistent and perverse.Zach: You know, I just started really thinking about, again, like, connecting historical racist idealogies and beliefs in America and then, like, how they show up at work. And so, like, an example that I think about, and I'm not a researcher and, like, I've talked to some friends and, like, I really want to put some research together on this, but, like, when you think about the history of black women and how they've been treated in this country and how essentially--there's been all kinds of writing on how there was a belief that essentially black women--black people across the board, but black women specifically--they don't feel pain in the same waysa that white women do, right?Pamela: Ugh, right. The black superwoman, yeah.Zach: Right? So in fact a lot of the understandings that we have about the female anatomy comes from the abuse of black female slaves. But this idea that, you know, black women are just tougher and, like, stronger inherently or biologically, you know? And we see that in sports, right? Like, Serena Williams is, like, a classic example of that and also why she wasn't heard and she almost died when she had her child, but I think that mentality and that attitude, it persists in the workplace as well, and it shows up in the workplace by way of black women being overworked and underappreciated.Pamela: Right. Well, you know, it's what history has demanded of us, right? We had to be stronger. Like, what was the alternative to that? Being beaten more? Being raped more? So paradoxically it's partly true that that's why we're still here.Zach: Right, by means of survival.Pamela: Right, but, you know, we haven't been given the opportunity to show weakness and to cry when things happen, things go wrong, you know? That fragility that may be afforded a white woman doesn't work for us.Zach: And I think we could find, like, similar... I guess my point is, like, that the meta-narrative doesn't stop, and so when you talk about systemic racism--so I'm the son of an English teacher, so, like, I'm very sensitive about words, right? So if you're gonna use a word like "systemic," then be comfortable with interrogating the concept that whatever you're talking about reaches as far as you can see and beyond that. And so, you know, when we talk about, like, we just talked about science and a lot of the racist concepts in considering that black folks were inherently inferior.Pamela: Right. And, I mean, those ideas are still debated, you know, just--like it was, like, 10 years ago, maybe it was a little more than that, when Newsweek and Time had, like, this big debate going about, you know, the bell curve.Zach: People still talk about the bell curve.Pamela: People still do, and, I mean, it's still with us, even if it's not as polite today to [?], it's still very much with us. Even if people don't say it, that idealogy persists.Zach: Exactly, and so it's like, "Okay, not only was this--" Like, at one point in time this was rigorous, firmly accepted, widely, globally accepted academic truth, and now it's waned into being impolite conversation...Pamela: Precisely, but still true. [laughs]Zach: Right, but still believed to be true.Pamela: But it's PC to now say it.Zach: Right, so it's not unreasonable then to believe that majority counterparts presume or have some conscious or unconscious beliefs that black people are inferior, and that comes up in language like, "They're not as strategic," or "They don't think as critically," or whatever, but it's subtle, and [?]--Pamela: Or that they're natural athletes or natural artists. Like, nothing comes out of a thinking place. [laughs]Zach: Right. "They're creative, but they're not strategic," right? And it shows up in a lot of genteel language, but you talked about Robin DiAngelo and you talked about white fragility. You know, we had her on the podcast a little while ago, and--you shared it actually on Twitter. Thank you for that.Pamela: I did, because I think it's so timely.Zach: It is. And when we talk about white fragility--and for the sake of just kind of level-setting, right, it's essentially the low fluency and resilience white folks have with regards to engaging matters of race, especially discussing where they may be the perpetrators of conscious or unconscious racist behaviors.Pamela: But then think about it. There are no penalties for them not knowing so much about the history of race in this country, you know? I've written about this. You could do a doctorate, a post-doc, and never have to meaningfully confront the history of race in this country, you know? You don't have to know about what happened to the Irish and what happened to, you know, Italians and Greek people at the turn of the century and how, you know, they were demeaned. You don't have to know how race operates and how it is just, like, so deeply embedded in the whole system of this country, and so because you may know who some of the major contributors to American history were who happen to be African-American, they never have to know. They don't have to know who Fredrick Douglass is, Booker T. Washington. Like, all of the people who I grew up just knowing because my parents taught me, I would never be penalized on an SAT for not knowing that. So they've been able to skate through life without understanding why it is that we have this kind of systemic imbalance around race, and they think it's because of merit. They think it's because they worked harder. They think, "Well, slavery was abolished in the 1860s, so what's the problem? You've had all this time." They don't look at the ways in which that system is still very much actively working against any kind of racial equality, you know, racial justice. And so when you're, like, just ignorant and not penalized for that ignorance, like, it's not totally the fault--you know, I have white students who sometimes are in tears in my class. I teach a class that examines the history of racial portrayals of marginalized groups, and they say "How is it that I'm in college and I never learned any of this history?" Like, it's not their fault, you know? Because only those who choose to elect--and these are electives that they would take to learn about this--like, it's not required. These courses are so marginalized, and they're so important for white people to have a sense of all of the ways in which they have been privileged throughout history without knowing that they're twicely just ignorant. Zach: And to your point though, right, you have this group who--so, like, let's talk about the workplace. So you have this group that has never had to really critically engage around race, never had to engage around how their own behaviors have been harmful to folks who don't look like them. Now all of a sudden, no matter [?]--like you said, this just really got started, right? We're just a couple weeks in, but let's say this goes on for two years, whatever, you know, suddenly there's going to be--you go from, like, not moving at all to almost running at a rabbit's pace, and I'm curious about with the current client focusing on black people, black experiences and really continuing to unpack that, how would you advise, like, a majority-white leadership space mitigate burn-out? Because they just don't have--again, we talk about white fragility, they don't have the bandwidth and they don't have the cardiovascular, right, to keep up.Pamela: Well, you know, I think they do, you know? I think these institutions have been so afraid to engage these matters and now they're seeing the consequences of kind of their hands-off policy, you know? We've made the progress we have made due to uprisings in the 1960s, because all of that scholarship was out there then, but no one listened until buildings started building and, you know, people started feeling kind of unsafe, and then suddenly everyone leaned in [?], and I think we're in that same kind of space right now where I think people are honestly leaning in--I mean, I've gotten notes over the past week from colleagues who, you know, kind of didn't really--I guess they saw me as kind of a radical, and now all of a sudden they're seeing my ideas as mainstream. So they're writing me like, "Wow, you know, you were prescient." It's like, "No, I wasn't. You just weren't paying attention." Everything that we're seeing has been happening all along. Nothing is new. The only thing that has changed is that white people are suddenly acknowledging the truth that has been with us all of this time. So now that they are, I do believe that we can begin to--first of all, there's so much out there. There's so many scholars of color and professionals of color and people who are ready to, like, get in there, right, and contribute to all of these institutions that have ignored them, devalued them, you know? Not hired them. You know, these institutions are about to be enriched, you know, if they truly embrace the diversity that is available, you know? Well-trained, well-educated, just ready, ready to jump in and help these organizations become more just places, and I do believe that if they continue to lean in in the ways they have over the past few weeks, I think a lot of good can come from this moment.Zach: And do you think--let me ask this then. So do you think that will offset the amount of folks who are uncomfortable and end up, you know, going elsewhere or--Pamela: What do you mean?Zach: Yeah, so what I mean is, like, do you think the amount of folks that come in and they deliver learning and folks grow, and they increase black and brown engagement through hiring and of course, like, retaining the talent that they have, do you think that will offset the amount of white folks who just find all of this offensive and disengage?Pamela: You mean like the 57 police officers in Buffalo that resigned because two of their colleagues were suspended for, like, critically injuring an elderly white man? You know, I don't think that's gonna happen, you know? Because first of all people need employment, and yeah, you know, I think that you're always gonna have that percentage of, you know, just straight up white supremacists who are not going to be in spaces where there are people of color, and, you know, good riddance, but I don't think that's gonna be the biggest roadblock to having diverse environments, because I don't think they're gonna give up all of these fields, you know? I don't think they're just gonna suddenly say, "Oh, here. Take my privileged position at this law firm or in this company," you know? But I think people can learn to work together. In fact, I think that is the best way to condition people to deal with different kinds of people is just to put them in the same space where they see that, "Oh, this person is not, like, a Martian. This person actually has kind of similar values," and then they begin to see that there was nothing that frightening to begin with. But I think when you continue--you know, we live in a rigidly segregated society, and most white people don't have to be in spaces where there are people of color, and particularly people of color who are peers, you know? They may be in the mail room or, you know, delivering their food, but to have people of color who are your peers, many white people don't have that experience, and they certainly don't have that experience of having people of color who are neighbors, who go to the same church, who go to the same--we live in such segregated worlds, and that kind of segregation becomes a self-replicating situation in the workplace, right, because people hire who they know, they hire who their friends recommend, they hire from this very closed off world, and until you can break that up, you know, and have a far more diverse workplace, you're gonna continue to have that kind of self-replication.Zach: Ms. Newkirk, this has been incredible. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Pamela: Well, you know, I guess the thing that I'm most hopeful about is that there are successful models that can be readily replicated, and if institutions truly want to embrace diversity they need to just stop doing what they've been doing and lean into models that have proven to be successful.Zach: Well, there you have it, y'all. This has been Living Corporate. Like, we do this every single week. We're having real talk in a corporate world, and we center and we amplify marginalized voices at work by having black and brown thought leaders of all types of varieties on the platform. You make sure you check us out. Just Google Living Corporate. I ain't about to shout out all the places we on 'cause we all over Barack Obama's internet, so just type in Living Corporate and you'll catch us. 'Til next time, this has been Zach Nunn, and you've been listening to Pamela Newkirk, award-winning journalist, educator, speaker and author. Peace, y'all.

Zach has the honor of welcoming Howard Bryant back to the podcast on this special Saturday episode. He and Howard touch on several elements of our current civil rights protest, and Howard graciously explains why he disagrees with the sentiment that white folks are just now really understanding and seeing the evils of racism. Check the links in the show notes for ways to pledge your support!*This episode features occasional explicit language.*Connect with Howard on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and don't forget to check out his website.Learn more about Howard's latest book, Full Dissidence, by clicking here.Interested in finding out more about Howard's other books? Click here to be redirected to his Amazon page.Donate to Black Lives Matter by clicking here.Split a donation between 70+ community bail funds, mutual aid funds, and racial justice organizers by clicking here.You can pledge your support to a variety of institutions by clicking the following links: Know Your Rights Camp, NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, and Campaign Zero.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and I have my daughter Emory in my lap. Say something, Emory. You gonna say something? No? Okay. And, you know, this is not the norm, right? Like, typically you're gonna listen to See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger or The Link Up with Latesha with Latesha Byrd. However, as we look at the world around us and the chaos that continues around us--like, we're not teetering towards chaos, we are in a chaotic time. And we see the state by way of their police force abusing everybody. It's a unique time, and so we wanted to make sure today--not Tuesday, but today--that we actually had a really in-depth and frank conversation with someone who understands the concept of dissidence, and that's Howard Bryant. Howard Bryant is a senior contributor and writer for both ESPN and NPR, and he wrote a book titled Full Dissidence, and it tackled the reality of protest, and he really analyzed and assessed Colin Kaepernick's protest and really broke down white power structures that maintain the status quo in spite of dissidence. And, you know, we also talked a little bit about--and you're gonna hear this--the responses of many of these corporations and how authentic they were in actually addressing the problem. And so, you know, one point of feedback, and you'll notice this, is that organizations are going to--and they're doing it now, and they're going to continue [to do it]--to treat racism as this abstract concept, and so it's up to those who are in positions of authority and have courage to speak to tie those words and concepts into tangible actions, right? So it's not enough to say, you know, "We have to do better and be better and treat people better and open our hearts and minds." That's not actually what changes. What changes is actually structures and policies to actually make a difference, right? Enacting pillars or means of accountability and repercussions for bad behavior. That's how you change, and so to all the organizations who are seeking to make these statements, understand, like, we're in a different place, and folks are looking to hold folks accountable in a different way. [laughs] I just saw a Google Sheet that's been going around that actually really starts getting tangible about how authentic some of these folks are when it comes to anti-racism, and, you know, it doesn't just stop out there. It continues within organizations, right? Like, your company does not have this magic barrier that stops racism, and so that's important, and so we talk about that, and I wanted to make sure--because we didn't have a lot of time with Howard Bryant so I didn't have time to do a bunch of intro stuff, we just got right into the questions, so I wanted to make sure to give a little bit of context. I pray that everyone who's hearing this is staying safe. Definitely support everybody protesting. You're seeing on Living Corporate, we are trying to amplify as much as we can. You're gonna see some links to donate to different protestors and bail funds and things of that nature. You're gonna see that in there. My hope and my desire is if you're an aspiring ally and you listen to Living Corporate regularly that you would check those links and donate. You don't have to donate to Living Corporate, just donate. Just click the links. Just please donate to those links. Shout-out to all my people. Love y'all. 'Til next time. Peace.Zach: Howard, welcome back to the show. How are you doing? Howard: I'm good. How are you?Zach: Man... you know. [chuckles]Howard: [chuckles] Staying sane during all of this?Zach: Trying to, trying to, trying to. Look, you know, we had you on not too long ago, and you've seen a lot, I know, in your life in terms of civil struggle. I think I was a kid when the Rodney King riots happened. In your estimation, is this the largest civil rights protest that you've seen in your lifetime?Howard: I don't know. That's a good question, that's a really good question, considering a few things, right? I was, what... Rodney King, I was 22, and that was nowhere near close to this. I mean, that was--that was disbelief followed by sort of [retrenchment?] followed by rage, because let's not forget that Rodney King happened over a year. Because first it was the beating, then there was the trial, you know, and then there was the uprising, and that happened in '92, but Rodney King actually got beaten down in '91. And so there was that, but this is also--then there's also Ferguson, and so what was happening in Ferguson and Baltimore, all of these things were sort of separate. So I think yes, actually when you really think about it in terms of one sort of linear scale moment, yes, this is the biggest reaction, this is the greatest singular reaction that I've ever seen, and I think that it's been a long time coming. I think that there's so many different avenues that you can take when assessing something like this. Obviously if you're Black you're sort of wondering "What took so long?" I think even if you're just an observer you look at it and say, "Okay, why now? Why Minneapolis? Why was this one the one that linked everybody?" All kinds of great questions there, and then I think the other question that you have here too when you look at it is "What is going to come of it?" And happening during a pandemic. I mean, I swear, man, I believe--I woke up the other day wondering if I had, like, fallen down the stairs and been in intensive care and nobody told me. I mean, I woke up--I woke up and had all these messages from all these people, all my white friends. "If there's anything I can do." I'm like, "What happened?" Then I get another one going, "Oh, I'm so worried about you right now." I'm like, "What happened?" I'm checking my phone, I'm checking the news. I'm like, "What happened? Why is everybody texting me making sure I'm okay?" Then I check my email. "Just really worried, you know, about you and yours, and anything I can do," I'm like... "What happened?" And now you're recognizing that "Oh, they're getting it now. This one got to them." And I'm not even trying to be funny. I literally had no idea why I was getting all these messages, because for us this is normal. This was like, "Okay, this is one of many."Zach: Exactly, right? And I saw you tweeted about this, and I've actually talked to my colleagues about this too, but there seems to be, like, this large sentiment that white folks are just now really understanding and seeing the evils of racism, and, like, what do you make of that? What do you make of this phenomenon?Howard: Yeah, I don't make any--I don't believe that for a minute. I think it's something totally different, and I think that we're in the middle of... I don't know if you're an Alfred Hitchcock fan or not, but Hitchcock mastered the art form of the MacGuffin, and the MacGuffin was essentially the red herring. It was the thing that made you think the plot was, but it wasn't. Like, if you're watching--like, if you watch Psycho it's like, "Okay, it wasn't about the $40,000 he stole after all, was it? It wasn't that. It was this." I don't believe that I'm actually gonna say this, but I'm gonna say this, and I was talking to Roland Martin about this the other day. I really believe that racism in some ways is a bit of misdirection, [that?] racism is not the issue. The issue is policing. The issue I think white people are tired. I think the country's tired. I think after three and a half years of this administration and this buildup, I think that people are recognizing there's no way out, and I think that if you combine that with a pandemic where everybody's been in the house for three months, I think things are starting to--I think it's sort of, like, a perfect storm in a lot of ways, and I think that the visceral nature of that killing... I think Eric Garner was one thing, and I think Eric Garner was every bit the same type of killing that this one was, but I think Eric Garner happened in such a flurry that I don't think that people paid as close attention because Eric Garner and Ferguson were right next to each other, and I think that there was still enough misdirection--and I also think there was something else, and I think that there was a feeling too that there was going to be some form of accountability because you had Barack Obama in the White House and he was talking about accountability and talking about [?], and so there was this feeling that maybe the system was actually going to maybe kind of do something down the line, but here with this administration, I think they've made it very, very clear that this is the norm, and watching that murder and having it be a physical murder--it wasn't that he got shot or anything, you literally put your knee on the neck of somebody while he was held down, you know, apprehended by three other officers. There was no reason for it. It resonated. I think people saw it because their lives have shut down. I think it's easier to ignore this stuff when your life is moving on. You, like, take a little look and you keep going, but everybody's been stuck in the house, so everybody's been paying--I think people paid much more attention to this because they didn't have anything else necessarily, because it feels like the country is falling apart, right? I mean, it already feels like, "All right, we're talking about the economy and everybody's losing their jobs and you have 40 million people out there on unemployment AND you're in the house watching videos all day in-between Zoom chats." All you're doing is you're online. So something about it hit in a way that it didn't hit in other ways, and then on top of that the marshal response is very different, where you have a bunch of white kids out there, this looks like--I mean, so when you say "my lifetime," technically my lifetime? No, because I was born in 1968. So this feels like '68 in terms of when you see a whole bunch of anti-war people and, you know, when you see white people--when you see white people getting the shit beat out of them by police, you know that something's happening.Zach: They getting whooped out here.Howard: Exactly, and they're out front. And I think there's something else too worth paying attention to, and that is this may be a delayed sort of effect of the last 12 years. I think that if the 2008 election was your first election, you were 18 years old, you're 30 years old now, and in 2008 you had a belief that this was gonna be different. Not just black people, but everybody on that side had a belief that that election was finally going to turn a corner and that these corners were going to keep being turned, and they're not, and now you see this frustration. And on top of that, that generation, that generation believed. I mean, we talked about this last time. The thing that I was really worried about, I was worried about it for black people, I'm now somewhat worried about it for white people in a lot of ways, is that they believed in 2008, that this country was free and that all you had to do was break that logjam, and I think that logjam, first you break it with Obama, but then after that you break it with his reelection. So you think, "Okay, maybe we normalized this idea that anybody can be president," then it's been backed up with nothing but retrenchment. You know, 1. you look at how Hillary lost, 2. you look at how Brett Cavanaugh got to the Supreme Court, 3. you look at how Elizabeth Warren was essentially humiliated, even though she was clearly one of the smartest if not the smartest candidate who was running for office. So now you have these white people, and white women in some ways especially, finally realizing what it's like to get punched in the face politically, you know? Where you finally start to realize "Oh, we're getting it too," and if you start to add up this accumulation on top of an administration that has essentially been cracking down, whether you're talking about immigration, you're talking about--it's all of these things together, and then you see this black man getting killed in essentially slow-motion for 8 minutes and people are like, "Enough," and then the dam breaks. And it's an election year as well. So I think there are so many things that are happening. You know, and this is how it usually works, right? And how it usually works is that it's all the things. It's never "the one thing," it's all the things combined that create the breaking point, and the Trump reaction to the breaking point, to essentially build a fortress around the White House, to have prison guards who are unidentified out in the streets policing D.C., to essentially unleash police on everyday citizens, you know, to do that, to have them fire into crowds of white people... this feels like dystopia. It's not like, "Oh, we're nearing chaos." No, we are in chaos right now. We're in it.Zach: I want to pivot a little bit and talk about some of the responses, like, that we're seeing from these major brands, and I'd like to stick to sports [chuckles] for a second. Is there any bigger example of cognitive dissonance than Washington making statements or [?]?Howard: Oh, and the Chicago Blackhawks or the Braves? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, but once again, people talk all the time about weaponizing your politics, right? And usually when they talk about these types of weaponizings they talk about political correctness or they talk about virtue signaling or they use all of these very insulting terms to essentially ridicule people of color or people who are gay or Black people or whoever about their identity choices, identity politics. You hear all of these different insulting terms, right? There's no greater example of political correctness than the National Football League acting like they care about this. All they're trying to do is send a message that they're on the right side of this when their history shows 100% they are not on the right side of this. They're on the opposite side of this. And the Washington Redskins and the Chicago Blackhawks and the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians and all of these teams with their racist logos are gonna say that they care about this, that they actually care? And all of these teams, every team in the National Football League who essentially took Colin Kaepernick and ruined his career, they took his career from him, are now going to say that they're in support of Black people? But if you notice, it's a very delicate dance because they don't want to mention the word "police." Zach: I was just about to say it's interesting to see that machine coming together, right? Like, they'll talk about [?] "Racism does not align with our values," [but] they don't talk about the police brutality. Mainstream media isn't talking about widespread police abuse.Howard: Well, that's what I mean about racism in its own way being a red herring. It's a MacGuffin. The goal here is not to eliminate racism. That's not the goal, right? The goal is for the system that you tell us to trust to do its job and arrest those four cops and prosecute them and have the juries out there recognize that crimes were committed and convicting them and of course putting them in jail, and on top of that we're forming laws that give police this wide latitude to do these things in the first place. But if you focus on racism, you don't have to change anything. You don't have to do anything. So you concentrate--so all we've been seeing here is "Oh, we've gotta--oh, Black Lives Matter, and, you know, we have to be better and be kinder to people, and we need to--you know, racism is the pandemic, it's the second pandemic." I don't care about any of this. What I care about, I care about the actual concrete structures changing, and they're acting like this, and what they're doing is that they're selling this to the public to make it sound like there's nothing they can do. They could go back to session right now and change the damn laws. That's what they can do. And when you think about on the other side, right, when there is a scourge that they feel is affecting society and affecting crime and everything else, all of a sudden there's plenty of concrete steps when it comes to black people. When they find black people as a scourge, all of a sudden you've got all kinds of tangible, concrete resources and solutions. You've got tougher laws. You build more jails. You put more cops on the street. You have more resources. You have longer prison sentences. Suddenly the entire machine actually works with concrete steps. But when you're asking white people to hold police accountable, it's "Let's abolish racism. Let's be nicer to each other. Let's one day open our hearts and be the society we say we want to be." No. No. You guys go to session and you take those cops and you put them in jail. Let's have a little conversation about one other thing, right? Fear. Let's talk about fear for just a minute, right? One of the reasons that you don't walk into an office and you look at your female coworker and you say, "Nice rack," or you say, "Nice ass," or you make some comment on her, right, you don't do that. Not anymore you don't. Why don't you do that? It's not because the minute you walked into that building suddenly your heart opened up and suddenly you were a nicer person and you weren't a frat boy misogynist asshole anymore. It meant that when you walked in that building you knew the fear of what was gonna happen to you if you talked to your coworkers by that. So what we're really talking about is you know damn well you're not a nicer person. You just know not to talk like that 'cause you know you're gonna lose your career.Zach: There's consequences and repercussions to that, absolutely.Howard: Right, there's consequences and repercussions to that. So why doesn't that get applied to policing? That you are going to lose everything if you act like this. If you changed the laws and you changed the cultural attitudes and said, "Listen, if you do what you guys did to George Floyd, your careers are over, we take your pensions, you are prohibited from working in this field for the rest of your lives," it would change. And on top of that, and to you police departments, these civil settlements that we have to pay that are in the billions, they're coming out of your budgets and your pensions. You would see a behavioral change overnight. "And if we catch you on video punching some teenager who's already in handcuffs, you're done," and it's an immediate felony charge, and all of a sudden if you start applying three strikes to the police the same way you apply three strikes to some dude buying a dimebag, all of a sudden you would see change, but instead what you're seeing is "Oh, well, open your hearts and let's be kind," and they're using racism and the utopian society as some sort of goal when actually none of this would have happened if you had arrested those guys and put them in jail the minute it happened.Zach: 100%. You're absolutely right, right? And I think it's actually happening also in the corporate space too, you know, and I want to talk about dissidence, and I know we have a little bit of time left, but I want to get to this. So the last time we spoke about, you know, we talked about the concept of full dissidence, and it's interesting because I think Black professionals across the industry in North America that I've definitely seen, they're seeing these companies treat race as an abstract, and they themselves, similar to how you're saying about, you know, the policing system and how there are things that we can tangibly change, they too are seeing how things can be tangibly changed. I'm curious though, before we get even into work, what are your thoughts about the video that just dropped from the NFL players. Is that an example of the dissidence that you're speaking about?Howard: Partially. It's on its way. It's on its way, and what I like about that is I feel like they're recognizing that you have a responsibility here. And let's face it, the NFL opened up the door here. They all did. Hollywood did, sports did, everybody did, and now the question's gonna be "Are you gonna walk the walk? What are you gonna do?" And now people want to see what you're gonna do. So if you're the NFL, are you gonna put out 33 of these statements, 32 teams and one league all putting out statements, and then blackball a guy? Well, what good is the statement? Are you going to put out all of these statements about how much you're down with Black people and then prohibit them from expressing themselves? Are you going to do this and, at the same time, make everybody celebrate police? And how are you going to celebrate police and military when you have the police knocking down 75-year-old men and you have the National Guard pointing weapons at its own citizens?Zach: And killing folks.Howard: And killing folks. Are you able to do that? You aren't going to be able to do that anymore. So I like what the players are doing. I also feel like the larger unspoken part of all of this is also the idea that your white fans are more important than your black fans. Because let's face it, if you had respect for your black fans, you wouldn't have done that to Colin Kaepernick because most black fans supported Colin Kaepernick. So what you were really doing was you were sending the message to your white fanbase saying, "We got this," right? And I understand it at some level. I understand it at a fear level, the fear level being, "Well, listen, this is our business model, and if people abandon our business model what are we gonna do?" But then, you know, it's fear versus courage. Do you have courage to also say to those people, "Listen, A. it's a free country, this is his protest, B. he's right, we have issues and we need to fix them, and C. in a sort of way, I dare you to leave. You ain't going nowhere. You're football fans. You love this sport, you love this game. Are you really going to tell us that you're no longer gonna watch the National Football League because one guy on a team you don't even follow is taking a knee about an issue that he cares about?" But that's really not the issue. The issue is that what he did inflamed all of them, the people who run the game. He offended their politics, and he forced a reckoning that you're seeing right now with the Saquon Barkley video that those guys did, and interesting respect seeing Pat Mahomes on there because, you know, for lots of reasons. You know, I mean, 1. people have been talking about the biracial element of this, you know, where does this leave the biracial kids? Well, Pat Mahomes told you. "I'm Black. That's where it leaves me." And it also leaves you somewhere else. When the superstars get involved things change, and the superstars have a quarterback, and Pat Mahomes is a superstar quarterback.Zach: Right, arguably the best quarterback in the league right now.Howard: Arguably the best quarterback in football, and if he's gonna be the guy, then all of a sudden the whole game changes. Zach: Right. So let me wrap up on this one. You know, the last time you were here, you called out how a lot of this diversity and inclusion, corporatized stuff, is actually anti-Black, and I think we're seeing, like, a watershed moment right now where these organizations and this industry that has largely been focused on white women, if queer identities white queer identities, is now scrambling to hire consultants and create new programs and create new statements to really address their actual black employees, and I'm curious to know, what do you predict is going to happen, and where do you see this ending now that we're in a situation where corporations and businesses are focused to actually talk about blackness explicitly?Howard: Well, I'm not willing to go there yet, and I'm not willing to go there yet for a few reasons. One, it's too new, because I think everybody right now is just in damage control mode. That's what I think, so that's my first reaction is "I'm gonna wait and see. Let's play this out." What's gonna happen two, three, four months from now? The world has been moving so quickly that this--who knew that a global pandemic was actually going to be second on the news items now to something else? You never know what's coming. And to me, I need to wait and see what they do with it, because right now the first thing that these guys are thinking about is putting out the fire, and once they put out the fire, are they going to go back to their regularly scheduled racism? And are they going to go back to the old way that they do things? Look, the bottom line with everything corporate to me, if you want to talk about diversity and inclusion and if you want to talk about advancement and if you want to talk about all of the different ways that the corporate world can be a hostile environment or it can be an encouraging one, to me it's usually been hostile because I think that people in these industries have always wanted diversity of color without diversity of thought. The real question to me when I think about the corporate world has always been this - "Are you grooming me to replace you?" That's the question. "Are you grooming me to be the face of your company? Are you grooming me to be the head of your corporation? Because if you are not, then what you're really saying is I will always have limitations and that you're always going to be scrambling to mollify whatever crisis we have in the day, that whatever the crisis [?] we're gonna find some way to calm it down and then go back to what we usually do." If you are at a point one day where these corporations look at you and they say, "Hey, it's okay to have two of our top three officers be Black, and one of them is the CEO and one of them's the CFO, and we're good," instead of having your top Black officer always be corporate comm. If that's the case, then maybe you'll see some serious change, but to me the real issue has always been the actual limitations. When you look at the--you know, I talk about big government, and you think about advancement and the rise of the black middle class and the destruction of the black middle class, you're usually talking about government. You're not talking about corporations. You're talking about the post office and you're talking about civil service jobs and you're talking about--those are the jobs that built the middle class. Corporations generally still do not hire black people in great enough numbers where you're not relying on the government, you know? When black wealth starts to decline, usually it comes from the shrinking of government, of government jobs. So to me, when you start to see, if you ever start to see, a movement or a shift in those numbers where you have corporations who are willing to groom African-Americans to be real players in their industries, when you start to see that, then you'll start to see change, and then I'll look at it and say, "Hey, this is different," but until then I'm gonna take a wait and see. And then also there's one other thing to consider about that too. We don't even know what the world is gonna look like, right? I mean, Black people right now are in the middle of this because of what's happening in Minneapolis and around the country, but let's not forget, we are still in the middle of a pandemic, and we are still--we're only in the first wave of that pandemic, because when flu season hits we may be shutdown again. So we still need to take a long look at the larger picture of what's happening, but as of today, the corporations have certainly put themselves in the position where it is appropriate to ask them if they're going to walk the walk.Zach: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for listening to Living Corporate. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Howard Bryant, ESPN senior writer and contributor and NPR writer and contributor as well. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with Mary-Frances Winters, the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., about black equity and power. Mary-Frances shares some of the top things she believes that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts and explains her perspective on why chief inclusion/people/culture officers are typically white folks. Check the links in the show notes to find out more about The Winters Group!Connect with Mary-Frances on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:https://bit.ly/2Bs8pZBhttps://bit.ly/2ZXoMYlhttps://bit.ly/3csD9qbLearn more about The Winters Group on their website. http://bit.ly/33pqotqCheck out the Inclusion Solution blog.https://bit.ly/2yX2quXYou can connect with The Winters Group on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:http://bit.ly/2WrDjtghttp://bit.ly/3d69LYhhttps://bit.ly/2XUy6t7Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, it's Tuesday. The day of this recording is May 4th, so May the 4th be with you. We have incredible guests every single time we come on, and today is no different, because what we're trying to do is what we always do, right? Which is center and amplify marginalized voices in the workplace. Now, I would like to think Living Corporate is a little bit unique in that we're having these conversations, but not only are we having these conversations that are centering marginalized voices, but we're having these conversations with marginalized identity groups, right? So a lot of times when you think about this diversity, equity and inclusion space, it's folks who don't look like me using fairly esoteric, like, heady language to describe things that they really don't experience, right? Like, not to put too fine a point on it. Just look... I'm just gonna be honest, right? Just gonna be a straight shooter, okay? And I'm proud of the fact that we've been able to have incredible guests that have not only the lived experience but have the practical knowledge and expertise to talk about real subjects, and so that's why our tagline for Living Corporate is real talk for a corporate world. Now, look, some of y'all have been listening to us and been rocking with us for a while, but every episode is somebody's first episode, so I just want to make sure I kind of level set a little bit. So with all that being said, I'm really excited to have our guest today, Mary-Frances Winters. Mary-Frances Winters is the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., a global organization development and diversity and inclusion consulting firm with over 35 years--count 'em, y'all, 35... more than I've been alive--more than 35 years of experience. She truly believes that diversity and inclusion work is her “passion and calling.” She's been dubbed a thought leader in the field for the past three decades and has impacted over hundreds of organizations and thousands of individuals with her thought-provoking messages, and her approach to diversity and inclusion. Ms. Winters is a master strategist with experience in strategic planning, change management, diversity, organization development, training and facilitation, systems thinking--yo, shout-out to systems thinking--and qualitative and quantitative research methods, and she has extensive experience in working with senior leadership teams to drive organizational change. My goodness, gracious. With all that being said, Mary-Frances, welcome to the show.Mary-Frances: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. You're definitely dating me, but that's all right. I'll take it. [laughing]Zach: I apologize. I wasn't trying to date you. I was trying to speak to the depth and breadth of the work that you've been doing, 'cause I think a lot of times it's easy, you know--like, pausing on, just, like, this conversation, but kind of, like, thinking about generational tensions, right? So I think there's, like, a lot of frustrations sometimes with folks who--like, millennials, you know, folks, like, in their early 30s or even, like, mid-20s to late-20s crowd who just think that, like, all of these frustrations that we're seeing now are new, right, but there have been folks who have built foundations before us that allow us to actually move forward, so it's just incredible that you've been in this space and doing this for a significant amount of time. I don't believe that should be taken lightly at all.Mary-Frances: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I accept it with honor and respect, so thank you so much.Zach: Thank you so much. So how are you doing during this time? Like I said, we're recording this on May 4th. How are you and your loved ones?Mary-Frances: We're well, we're well. We're doing well. You know, it is unprecedented times. It's very, very difficult times for the world, but, you know, we're doing well, and thank you for asking.Zach: So let's get right into it. Diversity, equity and inclusion work is about marginalized identities, yet the loudest voices in this space tend to be those of the majority, right? So, like, when you think about these big, big organizations and you look at, like, the chief inclusion officer or the chief people officer or the chief culture officer, they're typically white folks. Why do you think that is?Mary-Frances: Well, I don't think that the dominant group sees diversity and inclusion as being about marginalized folks. They see it as being about everybody. "We have to include everybody," and so some of what my frustration has been, as you mentioned, 35 years, and so when we used to talk about it, you know, in the days of affirmative action, they were protected groups, right? So the initiatives were targeted towards those protected groups. When we started to talk about it as being diversity, then it broadened and everybody got included in diversity, and the group that gets least talked about now are black folks, because they don't want to talk about black people. So I don't think that the dominant group that controls the narrative, I don't think that they see it about being about marginalized identities only, right? And so the focus may or may not be there, you know, depending, and so we did a session for a client not too long ago to talk about the relevancy of white men in the organization. So, you know, you've got to be inclusive of white men. [both laughing] Yeah, so that's why I think--you asked me why I think that is? That's why I think that is, yeah. Because in the corporate world, we don't even use the word "marginalized identities." So it's not a new term in sociology, but let me tell you, 35 years in this business, it's a new term in the corporate world. It's starting to be used, and I think it is because of the influence of the millennials. We've been doing some work in some organizations that, you know, normally--some of these older, traditional organizations have been around 150 years and still got baby boomers at the helm, right? Some of these other organizations have been around 15, 20 years, they've got a lot of millennials at the helm. Those organizations are using this language, the social justice language. The traditional organizations? Not so much.Zach: [laughs] So one, thank you. I'm really curious--that really is a good segue into the next question I have for you about just you showing up doing this work as a black woman, and not to, like--again, not to age you, we're talking about the fact that--[Mary-Frances laughs] It's not like you're a black woman who just graduated from college and, you know, you're in this space, or you just finished B school, like, you're someone who has seen this space grow and evolve and change and shift and permutate, you know, various times over over the past three and a half decades, and so I'm curious, like, what does it look like for you to operate in this space, and then specifically going into the example that you just provided, how do you respond to narratives like that? That, you know, white men need to feel just as included as black men or other marginalized groups?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So as a black woman in this work, a cisgender heterosexual black woman, baby boomer, there are different ways it impacts me. So one way that it impacts me is "Oh, yeah, let's get Mary-Frances because she can bring the voice of black folks." Um, no. Mary-Frances brings her voice, not all black folks, right? That's one way. This other way is, "Gee, we really can't hire The Winters Group to do this--" This is a black person talking now. "Because you're black and I'm black, and, you know, the optics of it, it looks like we might be giving you, you know, preferential treatment." The third way is when I stand in front of a group, to the question about, you know, white men, I do--if my question is gonna get across, I do in some ways have to disarm white men, because they're gonna--they see me coming in with my sister locks and, you know, "This black woman is gonna come in and she's gonna tell us, you know, how racist we are. She's gonna make us feel bad," and so what I've learned over the years is that you've gotta get them to like you first. No matter what they've gotta like you, right? And they have to think that the message resonates. So I learned the language. I learned the language of the organization. I connect my message to whatever their business plan is, whatever their business strategy is. You know, I connect it to that, because, you know, you're already coming in being black, being a woman. So those are two, you know, marginalized groups, historically marginalized groups. And so yeah, so there are different ways. And, you know, we talk about code switching, right? So we have to code switch a lot of times in order to get the work done, particularly in corporate spaces. Now, I don't know if you've noticed--well, I'm sure you've noticed because you know my colleague, Brittany J. Harris, who is the vice president of The Winters Group, and we're doing a series right now in our inclusion solution blog on decolonizing DEI work, and, you know, part of that--and I wrote a couple of weeks ago about decolonizing particularly the corporate world with, you know, corporate speak. So you come in and they have to have a business case, and the business case has to be "How does this help my business, you know, perform better?" That's, like, the classic corporate business case, and that's kind of centering this capitalist narrative, right? We're about the profits, and you can [show?] me by hiring black folks and hiring women, whoever else you want me to hire. If you can show me that that can help me to sell more whatever I'm trying to sell, then it's okay. So I think that, you know, to some extent--you know, I was just talking to a very large client just before this--I will not name that client. Very old client, 150, 160 years old, you know, very old. [laughing] You know, middle of the country, and they're just trying to get this stuff off the ground and you come in talking about marginalized groups and whatnot to a bunch of these white men, they're just not gonna--it's just not gonna happen. So it's this delicate balance, Zach, of on one hand, you know, you have to be able to engage the groups that they listen, and on the other hand you're trying to dismantle, you know, this dominant sort of narrative that doesn't necessarily work, and it hasn't worked. 35 years, 36 years, all of the same issues that I was teaching and talking about 36 years ago are the same. As a matter of fact, my book Black Fatigue will be coming out in February. Black Fatigue: How Racism Erodes the Mind, Body, and Spirit comes out in February, and I have a chapter in that book, Chapter 3, called Then is Now, and so I go back and I look at data from whatever point you want to take. You can take it from 1965, 1975, it doesn't really matter what you want to take it. When you look at our data and our statistics, we have not made progress. We're stuck, and we're at this standstill. Brown vs. the Board of Education was 1954, which was desegregate schools. Our schools are more segregated today than then. You know, the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You know, all of this legislation, housing. In 1975, 43% of black people owned their own homes. In 2019, 43% of black people own their own homes. The net worth--and, you know, net worth is, like, what you're worth, right? Net worth. A single black woman's net worth is $500, versus the net worth of a white woman, single white woman, which is [$5000?], still low. The net worth of white people, at 150 something thousand dollars, is 10 times that of a black person, and it follows even if you look at college-educated. So somebody who has a PhD who is a black woman college professor with a PhD makes 20% less than a white man who has a PhD and 7 to 8% less than a woman who has a PhD, and so all of these inequities--and I'm using those just as an example--is about Then is Now, that we haven't really turned the corner. So we're fatigued. [?] And it's particularly tiring for me because, like you said, I've been doing it for over 35 years. [both laughing] I'm tired.Zach: You're absolutely right, and we've had conversations about that on Living Corporate, and we cite the study Umbrellas Don't Make It Rain that really goes into dispelling the myth that higher education will, you know, somehow close the wealth gap, and it hasn't and it doesn't. So let's talk about this. There's a variety of folks that we've had on Living Corporate who have said, you know, diversity and inclusion, corporate diversity and inclusion, is inherently [anti]-black, not just in its external doings but at the internal politics. Do you have any thoughts on the voracity of that position?Mary-Frances: Well, society is inherently anti-black, so by extension the corporate world is inherently anti-black. We live in a society that has historically and continues to be anti-black. I don't know--yeah, so I agree. [both laugh] I mean, right? So yeah, you know, D&I is inherently anti-black. It is because that's the society--you know, when I wrote this book Black Fatigue and I was telling people about this, "Oh, please write about black and brown fatigue and, you know, all deference to indigenous people and native people and Latinos and everybody, right?" But the black experience in the United States has been different than any of those other experiences, and because of that the stereotypes and the marginalization plays out differently, and so I really felt a need--even though [?]--I show statistics for Latinos and Asians, you know, as well in the book, but I really wanted to focus on how this is playing out for black folks, because let me tell you. I say--you know, [?]--race is diversity's four-letter word, and particularly when you talk about black folks, people don't want to talk about it. They don't want to talk about the black and whiteness of it. "Let's talk about Asians. Let's talk about Latinos," right? So this anti-black--so that's one way anti-black plays out. You know, we have to include the other groups that we have [?]. I had a call with a client just on Friday, and they talked about how the psychologist or sociologist, whoever we were quoting--I forgot who it was--was black, and so we were like, "Uh, yeah," and they said, "Well, you know, perhaps we need to get some other experts included in this data set." What's that about? "Are there some Asian people who have spoke on this too?" [laughs] So yeah, I mean, we live in an anti-black world, and by extension our corporations are anti-black. I mean, look at things like the recent legislation around the CROWN Act. Why does anybody freaking care how I wear my hair? Why do we have to have legislation for people to be able to wear their hair--for black people to be able to wear their hair the way they want to wear their hair. You know, the young man wrestler, right, and they made him--Zach: Yes, made him cut his hair. His dreads.Mary-Frances: His dreads, right. Exactly. Right there. You know? I mean, why do you care? You don't have to like--what I say to folks is, "I don't care if you like it. You don't have to like my hair. I'm not asking you to like my hair." [laughing] But, I mean, are we still in a slavery, there's no freedom, that we can't even wear our hair the way we want to wear our hair? You know what, I heard about hair 36 years ago when I was in the corporate world and I had a very short afro, and one day a colleague--wasn't even my boss, a colleague--comes in my office and says, "Will your hair grow?" And I just looked at him and I said, "Yeah," and he said, "Well, you oughta let it," and he walked out of my office.Zach: Wow.Mary-Frances: That's why I left corporate. One of the reasons anyway. But anyway, so yes, is it an anti-black world? Yes, indeed. Indeed, it is. Unfortunately, you know, it is. And when you say that--and the problem is when you say that to white people they think that you're calling them a racist, and I'm not. I'm not. What I'm saying is the very foundation and structure upon which our various societies and the way we think and the policies and all those things are based on anti-black sentiments, anti-black beliefs if you will. Zach: You know, I'm really curious about, like--because you're right, we had Brittany Harris on the show some time ago, and we were talking about decolonization and dismantling and deconstructing systems, right? So it was more so about, like, kind of, like, trying to make some shifts and some headway in this work, because like you said, there's a lot of conversations that have just been happening, they've been recycling for years, and I'm curious to know, what are you seeing some other, like, DEI groups or, like, kind of names, things that they're saying that you're like, "Man, we've been doing that." Like, "We've been working on that," or "That's not new. Like, y'all think it's new, but it's not new." Like, does anything like that stick out to you?Mary-Frances: Yeah, I think that, you know, the whole idea of, you know, oppression, marginalization, privilege, all of those kinds of things I think have been out there for--you know, for a long time. You know, we can all remember--those of us in this work--Peggy McIntosh's White Privilege. Judith Katz, my colleague, did something on heterosexual privilege back in the '90s, and the Peggy McIntosh book was back in the '70s. You know, Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes, which shows, you know, bias. We now call it unconscious bias, but Jane Elliott, you know, put that out in, I don't know, the '70s, '60s or '70s. I was using that video--now that you've already dated me I'll just keep going with it--but I was using that video [laughing]--Zach: I'm so sorry. [laughing]Mary-Frances: No, no, no. You're fine, I'm just teasing you. [laughing] You know, I was using that video in the '80s, right? And now I hear people like, "Oh, do you know about Jane Elliott's video Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes?" And that's the other thing, [?] why I wrote Black Fatigue is because--and I'm not saying this is about millennials. This is not about generations at all thinking this stuff is new. This is about folks who are, like, in my age group to who this is all, like, a revelation, right? "We didn't know." So here, case in point. We know that COVID-19 is disproportionately impacting particularly black people, and when it came out, this proportionality, it was like, "Oh, wow, we have health disparities?" This is not new. I mean, these health disparities have been--they have been well-researched, well-written about, and they continue. They have not improved. Even middle-class black women are twice as likely to die in childbirth. You know, these are not new, and so that's what's part of, you know, the frustrating thing. You know, I really respect some of the newer folks who are coming into this space, and I think that they're doing remarkable work, and I'm hoping that perhaps they can put a different spin--I know Brittany, as a millennial, has brought definitely a different spin to our work. When Brittany came on board, which was, like, four years ago now I guess, we had started to talk about the intersection of social justice and corporate speak, because, you know, the language was all different, right? Everything was different. So we talk about mapping the intersection. What is the intersection of social justice and corporations? So corporations worried about the bottom line. Why should they be worried about, you know, social justice as well, and how do we get that languge? So I think at The Winters Group we're a little bit further ahead of mapping that intersection of saying that it's not one or the other. It really is a both and, because if you help to alleviate the social ills of this world or even of this country or even of the place that you operate your business, your business is going to be better.Zach: No, I'm right there with you, and I really think that segues well into this next question, which is just, you know, what trends do you see in this work from a thought leadership perspective, and if you were to kind of look across the landscape of this work and when you think about workplace equity as a whole, you know, where are the biggest places you think we have to grow?Mary-Frances: So where I see that we have places to grow in this work is fixing organizational cultures so that they truly are inclusive and we're not just using the word, that we're not just saying that we're inclusive, because the surveys that we do inside corporations would suggest that the cultures are not inclusive, particularly--PARTICULARLY--for black folks. Particularly. Now, when we do surveys with Latinos and Asians, culturally they may not be having a good experience, but they're not gonna tell us that because culturally they don't talk ill of--and I'm stereotyping, I know I'm stereotyping big time right now, but for the most part Latinos and Asians don't speak ill of their employers. That's a cultural thing, right? And so they're gonna say, you know, everything is good. We, you know, coming from a history of descension, a history of sort of laying it out there. You know, "No justice, no peace." Zach: Give us us free, yes.Mary-Frances: Yeah, right. We're willing to say, "No, this is not a good experience," if we answer the survey. We did a big survey for a corporation recently, and not many black people answered the survey. So then I did a focus group with them and they said, "Oh, no, we're not answering that survey. They can figure out who we are because there's only about 100 of us in the whole company." So the point is that organizational cultures, the traditional organizational cultures, are designed for dominant groups. They always have been. In the '70s when I was in the corporate world, they decided to bring in a whole bunch of black people, a whole bunch of black professionals, because they didn't have enough, and they just said, "Let's bring 'em all in here." Within a year, every single one of them were gone except one. There was probably about 30 people. Every single one of them left because the culture was not friendly, was not conducive. There were micro-aggressions all day long. [?] I told you about the micro-aggression about my hair. Here's another one. So the company sent me to some banquet or something, and I was sitting there--and I got to represent the company, so I was sitting at the head table, and we had a little fruit cup, you know, as our appetizer or something, and so the person sitting next to me said, "Oh, look at that, you have more watermelon in your fruit cup than anybody at the table." Now, why would you even say that? What would even make you part your lips to speak like that? Yeah. So you know what I did? I said, "Oh, you like watermelon? Would you like mine? I'll trade with you." [both laughing] So my point is that hasn't changed in 30 however many ever years that is. That hasn't changed. And so, you know, where we still need to grow is to really get at the culture, and the only way we're gonna get at the culture is to hold people accountable, and because the experience that people have in their organizations are 1:1 with their direct manager, right, and so if the direct manager is not talking the talk, walking the walk, it's not happening for that person. We often times focus on the top leadership, top of the house--"Let's start at the top of the house." I say that we need to focus on first-line leadership, those individuals who are most likely to have the greatest span of control. First-line leaders have more reports than the CEO. The CEO probably has six or seven direct reports, right? All the senior vice presidents, and then it goes down from there. So the biggest span of control and the biggest opportunity for change is at that first level, and we often times don't work with that first level of leadership because they don't have the budget for it or, you know, all of these other excuses. So I really think--and I've been saying this for years, so I don't know if this is a trend or not, but I've been saying this for years, that we have to get to that level. The other places that we still need to grow is pay inequity. You know, pay inequity for women and, you know, women of color in that equation too. That's an easy fix. You look at your data and you see who--if you have a disparity with women not being paid the same amount, then you fix it. You see, this is why if organizations wanted to do it, they could. Any aspect of diversity. If they wanted to do it, they would absolutely do it. So those are areas, I mean, in just terms of very tactical places, in terms of--cultures are really, really hard to change. So I had a call with a client this morning, and they had a question on the survey--they wanted me to review their survey. We have our own survey, but they got somebody else to do their survey, but they wanted me to review the questions. Here's one of the questions. "I fit in well at this organization."Zach: Hm, that's a good question.Mary-Frances: Huh? No, that's a bad question.Zach: Talk to me. Educate me why it's a bad question.Mary-Frances: Okay. Because it's about fitting in. Fitting in is about assimilation. Fitting in is about "I fit in," meaning that--Zach: I'm adjusting myself.Mary-Frances: I'm adjusting myself. I fit in, right? I mean, you still may get at it, but the whole idea of--even putting the language out there. So that's, you know, colonizing language, "fit," you know? Because what do we say when we hire somebody? We say, "Oh, yeah, they'd be a really good fit," and what "a really good fit" means is what? "They're like us."Zach: It's interesting, because the reason I was saying it's a good question is because I know a lot of--I know for me I would be like, "No."Mary-Frances: Right, exactly, and that's what they're hoping to get, but you see how the message could be from the other side, that you need to fit in.Zach: It absolves the organization of responsibility and onus in creating an inclusive work environment for that person.Mary-Frances: Exactly. So I said, "Why don't you have the question "I feel included at this organization?"" Right? I mean, you're gonna get the same answer, right, but you're now using language that is language that's about inclusion rather than fitting in, because fitting in is basically saying, you know, "Yeah, we need you to fit in. We need you to be like us." Zach: Okay, okay. Let's talk about black male presenting identities in this space, right? I could be speaking selfishly, but it seems as if they're still not highlighted with the same level of attention or nuance of some other people groups. Am I being fair? And, you know, if you agree with that, then could you kind of talk to me about why you think that may be?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So, you know, this is so interesting, because the chapter in Black Fatigue, it's called I Can't Breathe: Black Men's Fatigue, and I also have a chapter in the book called Say My Name: Black Women's Fatigue. So for the black women's chapter it's almost, like, twice as long as the black man's chapter, right? And I'm like, "Wait a minute." I said, "Is it because I'm a black woman and, you know, I relate to the experiences more?" So yes, and I'll tell you--this is the absolute truth. I am not kidding. I have been wrestling with this all weekend because I want to modify the chapter on black men to bring more of that voice. So with black women I could talk about, you know, #BlackGirlMagic, right? You know, what's the analogous movement for black men?Zach: There's nothing that big. I would say, you know, you have Black Boy Joy, but it's not as big, and there's some tension in that because a lot of black men are like, "Well, I'm not a boy. Don't call me a child. I'm a man." You know? So I'm not sure. That's a good question.Mary-Frances: So I write in the book about two experiences, two stories I tell. One story is about somebody who actually now--he has a degree in human resources, but he prefers to work with his hands, and he comes over and he tunes up our air conditioning in the spring and changes the filters and all that kind of stuff. So he was over the other day, and he worked for a large heating and air conditioning organization and was doing really well. They had him in their commercials on TV and everything and, you know, he said he just couldn't take it anymore. We would talk about entrepreneurship while he was still working there, 'cause he knew I was an entrepreneur and everything. So he finally left, and he's been on his own for 18 months, and he works 14, 16 hours a day. Nicest guy in the world. Got a young family, you know? Just really very customer service-oriented. He said, "Yeah, you know, when I go knocking on the doors, I've got to know how I'm coming," he said, "Because when they see that I'm black, you know, they get a little afraid." Ryan is all of 5'6" and, you know, maybe 150 pounds. He's a slightly built man. Zach: Slight guy, yeah.Mary-Frances: So he said, you know, "Why is this? Why do I have to exist like this, where, you know, I'm just trying to live and I'm just trying to, you know, run a business?" And he ran into--while he was in the corporate world, they told him one time that he couldn't get promoted because he was so good at his job that they needed him to stay in that job. That's why he couldn't be promoted, 'cause he was so good. [both laugh] Another time he was told that--he was promoting a particular service that they had, the air conditioning or whatever, and they said, "You're selling too much of this service." That's why he couldn't be promoted. So that's one. Another black guy, who had been with this organization for over 30 years, very well respected externally because he was in manufacturing and he has this particular knack for--he was called the turn-around man. He has a particular knack for going into a manufacturing operation and being able to, you know, whip it into shape, you know? The key performance indicators, the KPIs and all those kinds of things. I mean, he's a guru at that, right? [Lead?] manufacturing and all of that kind of stuff. And they would always send him to the place that was performing the worst, and he would go. So then they decided they were gonna put him in D&I, and this was after 30 years [?], so he's out of his element in D&I. He's gonna do his KPIs, he's gonna do his, you know, manufacturing operations. I think he turned just a few people off, right? So he ended up retiring early. No retirement party after all this. He's doing so well on the outside because he's got articles, he's got--he's well-known in this space, but he was kind of forced out of the organization because somebody didn't like, you know, what he said. So I think, you know, black men, one of the [?] chapters in my book, I have Tall, Dark, and Handsome, right? So when a white man is tall, he's paid more. When a black man is tall, he's actually paid less. The darker-skinned the black male man is, the less that he gets paid, right? Lighter-skinned black men get paid more than dark-skinned black men. So you take a black man who is tall and dark-skinned, you know, that feeds a whole lot of stereotypes, right? You know, and the handsome, you know, like I said in my book, black women [think they're handsome?, laughing] but the majority group probably doesn't. Not so much, right? But you're penalized. You know, black men are penalized, you know, for being tall. Black men are penalized for being darker-skinned. So my son, who is--he went to Harvard, Duke and Princeton, he studied under Cornell West. He is now a tenured associate professor of religion at Duke University. So when he was a kid he was always big. Joe's about, like, 6'5", so he was always big, and they always told him, you know, "You're gonna hurt the other kids. You gotta, you know--" So he's this gentle giant now because he was told, you know, "Don't be too aggressive." Up until the fourth grade there was something wrong with Joe all the time. We had to see a psychologist. You know, he just wasn't adjusting right, and he just da-da-da-da. All of these things. You know, he was in a white school district and usually the only black kid, one of two in his class. So in the fourth grade he had a teacher, he was a white male teacher, who said, "You know what? I think the only thing wrong with Joe is that he's brilliant." He said, "That's the only thing I think is wrong with him." And as soon as Joe started to see himself as brilliant and everybody else started to see himself as brilliant, guess what? Joe become brilliant, and voila, Harvard, Duke, Princeton grad, but if somebody hadn't told him that he was--[?], right? And so Joe writes about hip-hop and religion. He writes about the African-American experience. His book is--you might want to interview my son. His book is called "Hope: Draped in Black," and--Zach: I'd love to interview him, yeah. Let's talk about it offline for sure.Mary-Frances: Yeah, but what he talks about is how you hold hope in the wake of, you know, all of the oppression and whatnot. But, you know, we talked this weekend about black men and about, you know, the hip-hop culture and the gangster and, you know, the rape culture, and we talked about all of that and how that plays out and, you know, why that is, and yeah, it's--black men are very complex, very complex, and they have been, you know, obviously treated the worst. So it's tied up in self-concept. It's tied up in a whole lot of--and what one study found is that black men who have a good self-concept and are also able to figure out how to navigate, you know, the system, they do well in a corporation, but you've got to come first with a good self-concept, and I think, as quiet as its kept, all that bravado sometimes with black men, you know, "Show me some respect" and all that kind of stuff, you know, and "I'm all of that," I think underneath is really a lot of trauma.Zach: Oh, I agree with that. I think you're 100%, I mean, just spot on, and I also think, you know, when you think about black men in this space--it's interesting because black men and white women have something in common, where black men are black, yet they benefit to a much lesser degree, but they still benefit to a degree, from patriarchy, and white women are women of course, but then they benefit from white supremacy. So there's some dynamics there that are nuanced, and yet in a way that black women don't. So black women are women and they're black, right? So it's like, okay, there's no pool that you can pull from or there's nothing that you can really pull from a position of privilege. Of course you have able-bodied privilege, and if you're cisgender and all those things, but I'm talking about, like, just at a high level. So then--but I was gonna say that, you know, it's hard to talk about that because black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's like, "But it shouldn't be hard to at least try to engage in the subject a bit more intentionally," because, I mean, it hasn't stopped white women from being the center of attention for diversity and inclusion efforts for decades.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. Yeah, no. I think you're right, and so in the book Black Fatigue I question whether, you know--so to a certain extent yes, I guess I would agree that black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's more intra-culture than it is inter-culture.Zach: Right, 'cause black men ain't out here about to just be out here disrespecting white women at work.Mary-Frances: Right. Yes, there you go. Yeah, not unless [?]--nobody better know about it anyway, right? [laughs]Zach: Well, shoot. [laughs] Well, and that's the thing that blows my mind. Like, I had a conversation. I'll never forget. This was some years ago. I had a conversation with somebody who tried to, like, insinuate that the reason why I spoke so much at work was because, you know, I was the only man, and perhaps because as a man I'm used to dominating conversations. And I said, "Look, I might be the only man in this space, but I'm also the only black person in this space, and certainly the only black man," and I said, "So if you think that the reason why I'm quote-unquote dominating this conversation is because I'm a man and y'all are a bunch of white women, that's false." I said, "I would actually be more akin to being quiet," as it took me time to find my voice as a black man in white spaces. I said, "I would challenge you to ask why you would use the language that I'm dominating anything by simply raising my voice in a meeting," right? But there's, like, this--I agree with you. I think that there's a, like, lack of nuance when we talk about even how patriarchy is mobilized for black men. I think black men are benefiting from patriarchy with other black people. They don't benefit from patriarchy, like, from--like, if it's me or Karen, Karen is gonna win out.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. And for reasons like I was saying earlier. These studies show, you know, a tall--you know, you've got your stature if you will, that's a negative. You've got the color that's a negative, right? And so yeah, in white spaces, I think that it is an intersectionality in white spaces. You're black and you're a man. It's a marginalized identity.Zach: So, you know, your colleague Brittany Harris, VP of learning and innovation at The Winters Group, who we've had on in the past, has said that power is the silent P in this work. I'd love to hear more from you on the concept of power and how it fits into this engagement of workplace equity.Mary-Frances: Yeah. I mean, it is very much at the center, and it's complex, and when folks have power, why would they want to give it up? So I am not a proponent of power and privilege discussions with novices in this work. So folks who have not--I'm talking about people who are trying to teach, people who are trying to teach who have not had years of kind of understanding how all this plays out, I'm not in favor of going in and telling them that they have power and privilege. Yeah, I have it and I want to keep it. [laughs] Right? I mean, why would someone want to give that up? [?] Black people standing in front of a bunch of white men talking about, "You have power and privilege." Yeah. And so [they're?] like, "Yeah, what's wrong with that?" [laughs] I mean, they don't say that, but. And the other thing is how do they relinquish that power? I mean, that's really difficult to do. And the other problem that I have with that--so yeah, there's this inequitable power dynamic, but the other problem that I have with that is that we are accepting that we don't have power. We're rendering ourselves powerless, right? And so in the corporate world what is the key term? Empower. We want to empower our people. E-M, right? Empower, right? That is somebody giving you their power. So this is part of the corporate speak, you know, that I don't like, right? It's part of the dominant culture of corporate speak. I should have written about that one in my book. I might still. Anyway, I want to turn that around, that E-M to M-E. Me power. I have power. And so we have agency, but we don't take it. We don't use it because we have internalized that we don't have the power, we don't have power, and we cannot continue to--this is one of the trends I'd like to see, not to continue to talk to folks about power and just use our power, not to magnify the inequities. So everybody knows that if you're a white man in a corporation and whatnot and you're the manager or the leader or the director or the whatever, everybody knows you got power, right? [laughs] You know? You gotta tell me you have power? Why you gotta tell me that? Right? And so I think that there are other ways to claim power. I think that part of that is just the confidence that we come with, the self-concept that we come with. I think that we have to be ready to leave spaces, because there are consequences for us exercising power, and we have to have some safety nets, more safety nets than we have. So I left, you know, some 30 something years ago. I just stepped out on faith, I mean, 'cause I have a strong faith, and I didn't know what was gonna happen, but I just knew I couldn't stay there. We do know that black women, they're 40% more likely to start their own businesses than any other group, right? Because we recognize that it's traumatizing, and so this whole idea of--so who came up with the idea of power and power and privilege? White folks. To tell us that there's a power inequity... Surprise, surprise. And you know what? We're not gonna change that by telling white people that they have power. That is not gonna change that. The only thing that's gonna change it is for us to claim our power and to recognize that we have it. Zach: I love it. No, I'm right there with you.Mary-Frances: Right? [laughing] Stop telling white folks what they already know, that they got power. They already know that.Zach: No, that's true. Like, them not, like, screaming it from the rooftops doesn't mean that they don't know that.Mary-Frances: Well, exactly. Why would I scream it from the rooftops? Again, the dominant group, it's not something that they probably even--even when we call their attention to it, there are many who will want to say, "Uh-huh. And let me figure out how I'm gonna maintain it." There might be others who are curious. "Hm, there is this dynamic. Maybe I should, you know, do something to work on that," but the forces are so strong and entrenched, right, over 400 years of entrenchment, that it's not gonna change. You know, two or three or the small groups that you might get who are all for shifting that power dynamic, they're not strong enough to overcome that larger group who wants to maintain the status quo. So we just have to take it. We have to grab the power. We have to first of all understand we have it already. It's not grabbing anything. We already have it. We just have to use it and accept that there will be consequences sometimes for using that power, and if we don't have the strong safety nets in our community to, you know, accept and to protect those folks who, you know, get fired, you know, are out there, you know, being called out on social media because they're telling the truth or, you know, whatever it might be. We as a people don't support and protect our own as much as we should.Zach: Man, that's, like, a whole separate [?], and what we need to do is make sure we bring you back on when your book is closer to being published and talk about that, because I do think that, you know, how we--so, you know, we had Robin DiAngelo on some time ago, and she talked about white solidarity and the concept of essentially the formal or informal closing of ranks that white folks do to protect one another, often times at the detriment or harm of black and brown folks, and yet I don't--you know, because of colonization and because of just internalized oppression, you know, we don't have that I don't think in the same--Mary-Frances: We don't, yeah.Zach: And that's created so many challenges for us. I mean, since antebellum to today, right? Like, we've had so many issues because we don't necessarily practice to the same degree, protection of one another. So let's do this. You know, as you look across these leadership groups, especially during this pandemic, what are some of the top things you believe that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts?Mary-Frances: They have not educated themselves, so they are not--they think that they know, they think that their good intentions are good enough. So I've heard leaders say, "I don't care if it's the right thing to do for business," you know, the business case that we talked about earlier, "I just think it's the right thing to do, so now go forth and do it." However, because they don't have an understanding of the history or they know the history that was told wrong, they really don't know what to do. So they're making wrong decisions based on ignorance or, you know, a lack of information. I think the second thing that majority leadership does, particularly in the corporate world, is that they still have to speak to and answer to shareholders, and so they're not going to do anything that is going to, you know, jeopardize that. And so even when you're looking at board members, and what I hear often times is, you know, "Oh, the board won't go for that," or "We've gotta satisfy the board." Well, you need to change the board then. The board may not be--you know, you may not have the right people, because boards are tokenized [when] they have one token black person and one, you know, token woman on the board, right? So those are two things, and I think during the pandemic, I think because of this ignorance they are just not aware, big companies are just not aware of the world that some of the folks on the lowest rung face, and so when you say, you know, "shelter in place, stay home," that home may not be safe. That home may be filled with violence, right? You know, you make decisions about "Who are essential workers and who are not essential workers?" and you don't--you know, are you thinking about the health--again, talking with a client today, you know, talking about some of their contingent, you know, workforce, and they were saying, you know, "Well, are we gonna pay the sick pay or aren't we gonna pay the sick pay?" You know, [?], and so all of these kinds of questions, and they realized that "Yeah, we absolutely need to do that," and so I don't think that there's enough understanding of what marginalized groups face regardless of their socio-economic. So they're making decisions from their own lens, from their own--I'll use the word privileged--from their own privileged lens, and they're missing things. It's coming to light, right? A lot of this stuff is now coming to light, but some of the earlier decisions missed just the horrific impact that this is having on everybody, but particularly those who are in the lowest low end of the economic chain.Zach: Mary-Frances, this has been an incredible conversation. You know, I'd love to make sure that I give you space to talk a little bit more about The Winters Group, what you're most excited about, what you're looking forward to, even during times as uncertain and extraordinary as these. I'd love to just give you space to talk a little bit more about your company. Mary-Frances: Yeah, so we're looking forward to, you know, transforming ourselves as we always do, but this pandemic has made it absolutely imperative, and we've already been doing virtual learning, but we are looking at innovative ways to do virtual, ways that other people are not doing virtual. You know, we have whiteboards, and we have ways that we can break people out into groups. Like, the technology allows that, but I think the ways that we're doing it--we're doing simulations, and so I think this is an opportunity for us to be really, really innovative in terms of how we deliver our message. I did a virtual keynote, you know, a few weeks ago. I think it's also an opportunity for us to continue our [?] of the corporate message and the social justice message, because they have certainly come together with COVID-19 in terms of just what I was just talking about, how we see how marginalized people are even more marginalized. You know, as the saying goes, "When the world gets a cold, black people get pneumonia. When the world gets pneumonia, black people die," and so we're seeing that now, and I think it's the opportunity for us to even more strongly advocate for the intersection of social justice and corporate.Zach: Man, thank you so much, Mary-Frances. This has been phenomenal. And y'all, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. You know we do this every week. Coming to y'all with real talk in a corporate world. Make sure you check us out everywhere, okay? So you pull up your Google or your, I don't know, Bing, or your Yahoo or whatever search engine machine you're using, and you just type in Living Corporate. We're gonna pop up there, okay? Make sure you check out the show notes. Make sure you check out The Winters Group. Check out all the work that they're doing. Shout-out to The Winters Group and all of their incredible work. Shout-out to black women out here holding everybody down per usual. Thank you for all of your work. And shoot, 'til next time, we'll catch y'all. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Mary-Frances Winters, CEO and founder of The Winters Group, leadership, diversity, equity and inclusion consulting firm. Been out here laying the groundwork for y'all, setting legacies, and [they're] probably your favorite consultant's favorite consulting agency, okay? They've been out here. They've been doing the work. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach has the honor of speaking with Great Place to Work CEO Michael C. Bush about GPTW itself and the process of creating a great place to work. Michael generously shares what he believes executives should be thinking about when it comes to building better trust within organizations and talks about where he sees Great Place to Work continuing to grow and expand to capture more marginalized voices and experiences.Connect with Michael on LinkedIn and Twitter.Check out Great Place to Work's website. You can review their most recent lists by clicking here.Follow GPTW on social media. They're on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook.Interested in Michael's book? Find out more about it on Amazon.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and man, you know what we do. We center and amplify underrepresented voices in the workplace by having authentic, available, and frankly incredible conversations with some incredible guests, and, you know, today is no different, right? Like, we've had who, we've had Robin DiAngelo on, we've had Ruchika Tulshyan, we've had--we've had professors, we've had executives, we've had activists--we've had DeRay Mckesson--we've had all types of folks on the podcast, on the platform, and today is just incredible because we have Michael C. Bush. Michael C. Bush is the CEO of Great Place to Work, the global research and analytics firm that produces the annual Fortune 100 Best Companies to Work For lists. So you know when y'all, you know, see companies and they have, like, the little badge and it'll say, "Oh, we're, like, #5 great place to work," this person we're speaking to is the CEO of Great Place to Work, y'all. This is a big deal. I'm not trying to overhype it. I don't think I can overhype it. I'm just trying to give proper context to who we have on the show. You know, the 100 Best Workplaces for Women list, the Best Workplaces for Diversity list, and dozens of other distinguished workplace rankings around the world. Since 2015, Michael Bush has expanded Great Place to Work’s global mission to build a better world by helping organizations create Great Places to Work not just for the some, but For All. Under his leadership, the firm has developed a higher standard of excellence that accounts for fair and equitable treatment of employees across demographic groups, as well as executive leader effectiveness, innovation, and financial sustainability. His book, A Great Place to Work For All, outlines the compelling business and social benefits that come from these efforts. Michael, first of all, how are you doing?Michael: I'm doing great. Thank you, and honored to be with you today.Zach: It's a pleasure. Now, I'm asking--you know, we're in the midst of a global pandemic, and I would be remiss if I didn't ask how are you doing with your family. Is everyone safe and well? Friends and family, loved ones?Michael: Thanks for asking. Yeah, the world has really changed in the past 45 days, but I'm doing well. I'm sheltering in place here in Oakland, California, with family nearby, so everything's good, and I hope the same for you.Zach: You know, everything is good. It's interesting. It's an interesting time. My wife and I just welcomed our first child into the world just a handful of weeks ago, and it's just an interesting time to be new parents, right, with so much chaos, you know, seemingly all around us, or uncertainty around us, but life is beautiful nonetheless.Michael: Well, congratulations to you and your wife, and yeah, you couldn't have brought, you know, a baby into the world at a crazier time, you know, but things are always a little bit crazy, and what a story you're gonna be able to share with your baby, you know, and we're just gonna do what we're always gonna do, which is make the world a lot better from here.Zach: I love it, absolutely. So let's get into it, right? We talked about it a little bit in the bio that I read. You've been the CEO of Great Place to Work for over 5 years, going on 5 years. Can we talk about your first 100 days as the CEO and, like, what did that look like, you just kind of stepping into that role. And then, you know, in these past five years--I guess Part B to the question is what have you been most proud of since taking the helm?Michael: Yeah. Well, when I stepped into the role in 2015, I got into the role in a strange way. I was actually hired by the founder of Great Place to Work to sell the company, and I had done a lot of turnaround work in the past, and so I came in and worked to do that, and to make a long story short I ended up getting an investment partner and buying the business. So that's how I got into it, and then one of the things that I knew is that I felt like having the analytics of what really was going on for working people all around the world and knowing that there are a lot of working people who never really get a fair shot at being developed, never get a fair shot at being promoted, never get a fair shot at being recognized and rewarded, that I could use--I hoped--the data and the analytics to use recognition to get organizations to change, and so that's really when we made the change, almost instantly, to Great Place to Work for All. I thought that we'd have a platform, and at that time, you know, you never know how things are gonna work out. The business was technically bankrupt, so the first 100 days were what you have to do when you're turning around a company that's bankrupt, which is you have to stop all the money flowing out of the company. So a lot of tough decisions, a lot of tough days where you're just pruning the rose bush so that you can grow, and those times are very difficult, but that's really what the first 100 days were about. Not too much about the future. A lot of pain in trying to cut costs, but we got through it.Zach: When you talk about, like, Great Place to Work for All, like, clearly that's a point of pride for you and, like, kind of continuing to shift and expand the platform or the position that you stepped into. Can we talk a little bit about what it was about that particular--like, why you took that angle, and, like, why was that your point of determined growth for Great Place to Work?Michael: Yeah. Zach, I think the thing that helped me was having a lot of business experience and having been a CEO before as well as working with CEOs. One of the things I knew is that most CEOs, while they talk articulately and clearly and passionately about diversity and inclusion, it's not something they think about that much, you know? They think about it during Black History Month, you know, or other things like that, but beyond that they really don't think about it that much, so it's kind of a head fake because you can hear these things that are very optimistic and passionate, but in fact they just don't think about them that much, and so--they're CEOs, which means they're thinking about other things like shareholder value, stakeholder value, but this one isn't one of 'em. They delegate it, and so they typically delegate it to a chief of diversity and inclusion or maybe a chief of people or a CHRO, but it's delegated, you know? It's not something that they lose a lot of time thinking about, and so I knew that and knew a lot of people, you know, doing diversity and inclusion work, and the common experience was "If you get to a CEO and you say, "Hey, I'd like to talk to you about diversity and inclusion," and they go, "Oh, talk to my chief of diversity and inclusion and I'll see you later." And so they're gone. So I was trying to find a way of keeping them in the conversation by not bringing up diversity and inclusion, and we did that. So when you talk about Great Place to Work for All, they don't leave the room because they're like, "Hey, I'm into that because, you know, that includes me," and also Great Place to Work for All has superior financial business performance. We've got all the data on that, so now they hang in the room, and now they're there and they're present, and now you have an opportunity to share data and information with them to get them into the conversation and hopefully leading the conversation. So it's really--for me it was a Trojan horse. It was how to get into the castle walls and not have somebody come out the castle walls, you know, that was delegated to talk about diversity and inclusion. I felt that the CEO needed to be in that conversation just like they're in the conversation when they're buying the company. They have a head of M&A, but they're in that conversation, so I thought that we could make that happen, and so far so good.Zach: Well, no, it's a great point, and something that you just said rung true with me. I think another example is, like, HSC, right? Like, you talk about health and safety environments, like, the CEO is going to be involved in that conversation by some degree because they recognize the business value and just, like, the imperative of safety for their workplace. Like, they may not be in every single part of the conversation, but they're going to be engaged. If there are other parts of the organization that executive leaders, that CEOs want to be plugged into, I think it's interesting. As much growth as diversity and inclusion has seen, I think that certain language and buzzwords kind of, like, trigger disengagement from the senior-most people. So I find that really interesting and powerful that you were able to figure out kind of, like, I don't want to say the cheat code, but, like, the way to kind of mitigate that a bit.Michael: Yeah, yeah. Cheat code. I hadn't thought about it like that, but that's kind of what it is, and whatever works, you know? Kind of by any means necessary, and so we found that this works, and it not only works in the U.S. When I first did for the for All and started moving it around the world, the first thing we got was resistance because, first of all you're coming from the U.S., and the racial issues are--in the U.S. they are on display for everyone to see and the rest of the world looks at it, but the rest of the world doesn't look at themselves, and so the very resistance was "Well, you're coming from the U.S. We don't have racial issues," which is crazy, because it doesn't matter which country you go to, there's racial issues. But they're not seen the same way. They don't--people don't really self-reflect in the same way. And then, you know, so I was bumping into that, and then what began to happen was people in Sweden started talking about, "Well, really, you know, women aren't treated family," and so for them for All meant that. And so wherever you were in the world - Japan, you know, women, and so there was always some group of people in every country that was treated differently in terms of opportunity and promotion and getting into the C-Suite for example than others. So then it just took off. Then it just took off and really, outside the U.S., it's been embraced more strongly than inside the U.S., 'cause in the U.S., you know, people do say, "Are you using a cheat code?" You know? They're kind of more suspicious, but around the world the thing has really just taken off, and, you know, the book is now in I think 11 different languages and so on just because of that, and CEOs now want to be linked a message that gets them a lot of brand value, and so Great Place to Work for All gets them a lot of brand value. If they talk too much about diversity and inclusion, you know, they actually get blowback from the dominant group in the workforce, and so this is a way that they can get out in front and be totally, totally inclusive without saying inclusive.Zach: It's interesting too that, like, you know, the amount of work that goes into that, right? How can we be inclusive while at the same time not oversignaling to the point where we actually lose the folks in the room who we need to be engaged to create, you know, systemic change and a sense of belonging for everybody? That really kind of leads me to my next question. You know, you're the first--yes, you're the first black male CEO of, like, a major organization or company that we've had on Living Corporate, right? So we've had, like, different senior leaders and executives and directors, but you're the first CEO that we've had. Can we talk a little bit about the role that your previous experience--'cause you talked about it before, about you were a CEO before this, you had industry experience before coming to Great Place to Work--and how your identity plays a role in some of the things that you do and the relationships that you have to make and maintain in your current position?Michael: Yeah. A lot of times people will ask, you know, "How do you get to a CEO?" And the answer is I started, you know, my own company in 1994, and so it really began by breaking out of corporate America. So it wasn't being within it, it was breaking outside of it. There are other journeys. I'm familiar with them. I have, you know, close friends who have done the corporate journey and been able to get to the CEO role. That's one path. It's a very different path than the one that I know the most about, which is the entrepreneurial path. And being an entrepreneur isn't for everybody, just like being a corporate CEO isn't for everybody. It takes two different personalities and two different skill sets really. But for me, on the entrepreneurial path, it was getting a feeling that I was never gonna really be comfortable in the corporate environment. I was never gonna be comfortable. I was always gonna be doing some shapeshifting in that environment, and so once I broke out, okay, then it was great, because I was able to break out and do the things that I needed to do to be successful, and the thing about, you know, so then how do you grow and how do you get to do more, what you gotta do is make rich people more money. So it's--the key is that, you know? It's you better be delivering that value. And so if you create value for people, you have friends for life, and so then you can start to be able to use that momentum. So all of the things that I've done, just like Great Place to Work, what I talk about is profitability. What I talk about is cash flow. So I talk to CEOs about the things that matter to them most. It's all about that. Now, this is the way you do it, but I always go through that door, and I've always gone through that door so people know it's about profitability, it's about EBITA, it's about cash flow, it's about growing market share, and this is the way you do it. You know, this is a way to do it, but it's a business helping another business do a lot more business. I have the data to prove if you make it a Great Place to Work for All you're gonna crush your competitors, you know? The companies that are on our list that are Great Places to Work for All outperform the S&P 500, the Russell 2000 and 3000 by a factor of 3:1, including today, you know, as the market drops. Our companies don't drop as much and they rebound quicker during recovery. So having the data and the analytics, always leading with those numbers, never going to the morally right thing to do but always being about the business enables the CEO to stay there so I can actually--the CEO doesn't leave the room because there aren't a lot of D&I people talking about EBITA, earnings and cash flow. They're talking about other things. So, you know, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that. I'm just saying--Zach: It's just the reality of the environment, right?Michael: It's just the reality of the environment, and if you're talking to a CEO about the things they care about, which are those financial metrics, you can begin to talk to them about a lot of things, because they know they're talking to somebody that everything I say is gonna be about enhancing those metrics.Zach: You know, that leads me--Michael, it's almost like you do this a lot, right? It's almost like you talk to folks and you do meetings, interviews, quite a bit, 'cause you're just--you're helping me out. Without getting too much into the secret sauce, like, we understand that Great Place to Work, like, y'all's list is not something that's, like, qualitative, but it's a variety of quantitative analytics, points of measurement. Can you talk a little bit about how the data analytics behind the Great Place to Work rankings has evolved over time and what influenced, if anything, the way that Great Place to Work determines if a company is indeed a Great Place to Work.Michael: Yeah. So we ask the same 60 questions of every company we do business with in 98 countries around the world, so that's one thing that makes us different. Other companies kind of tailor the question set. We're like, "No. We know people. We've got 30 years of data on people." People, you know, the norms might be different, the willingness of a worker to say what they think and what they want might be--they might be more willing and open to it in one country versus another due to social norms, but at the bottom people want the same thing, and so we measure those things. People want to be respected by the people that they work for, so we ask 11 questions that let us know whether you feel respected or not. People want to work for somebody who they feel is transparent with them, so we ask about 9 questions about that. And people want to be treated fairly more important than anything else, so we ask 14 questions about that. And then people want to enjoy the people that they work with and people want to be proud of their work, which means they feel cared for and they care for the people around them, that's what really drives high-performing work, people caring about one another. It's not stock options. Those things don't have the stamina of people. They have to feel like they're doing something they couldn't do on their own and be connected by some sense of purpose. So we measure those things. We ask these questions. We're an analytics company. It's all about the numbers, and we do this with 10 million employees and 10,000 companies every year, so across every single industry. There's not an industry that we don't survey in. So therefore we've got a huge data set to let people know when your people are feeling that in this part of the world things aren't fair, we tell you what that's gonna do to EBITA and profitability and earnings and revenue in that part of the world. We can go straight to the correlation between the employee experience and revenue and these financial metrics, and in some metrics we can go to some causation. We can actually tell you if people aren't feeling emotionally or psychologically or physically safe, those, what I just said, safety defined with those other three attributes drives earnings, you know? It drives earnings is how safe people feel, so we measure those things and therefore can let you know, "Hey, when we see this set of data, we know these people are updating their LinkedIn profiles. They may still be working for you, but they are looking for the next thing to do. So we call it presenteeism. They're present, but they are looking for a way out. So now the data can be used with artificial intelligence to predict what's gonna happen with people. You can see that a person pulls on their--the economy is going good and a person pulls on their 401K and then doesn't return in time not to pay a penalty on that. This person's undergoing some financial pressure, and the financial pressure they're going through affects through employee experience, so we can alert a company that "Hey, you've got a problem here because we can see in this data." So it's all about the data, it's all about the 60 questions, and we measure the employee experience, how they feel about the people they work with, whether they feel like management involves them in decisions that affect them, whether they trust management, whether they have confidence in management. So we ask a set of questions where we can let a leader know exactly what's going on and then compare that so we can--if you're a tech company and you get the data and you don't really know what to think, well, we have a benchmark against other tech companies, and then you go "Whoa, okay, these companies are actually outperforming me in these areas. I want to do something about it." So benchmarking is very important. You can see how Latin America is doing versus South America versus North America or men versus women or people of color versus majority or members of the LGBTQ community versus the majority. You can do all the demographic cuts. The biggest change we made in our methodology since I got involved were these demographic comparisons to see if it was a great place to work for all versus a great place to work for some. That's the revolutionary breakthrough that we've made, and so our lists today are different from the lists in the past because we reward companies that treat everyone the same, where employees are having the same experience and the same in an equitable way, which we're able to measure.Zach: You know, you talked a bit about--you mentioned, like, predictive analytics there, and I'm curious, how far away--and if we're already here, then let me know, but how far away are we from predicting, like, lawsuits or, like, legal action by employees who feel, like, psychologically, emotionally, physically unsafe, who feel, like, discriminated against and things of that nature and then, like, present that to organizations and say, "Hey, look, you have a serious problem, and here's the likelihood of X happening, and then here's the amount of damages that would cost to your brand over X amount of time." Do you think we're anywhere close to that? Do you think that's anything that would be relevant or pertinent for organizations to have?Michael: Well, for some companies they're able to do it right now, and you're talking about where we're heading, absolutely where we're heading. So if you've got an HR system of record on Oracle or a [?] or an SAP or Ultimate software, if you've got an HR system of record--which is a platform that has the payroll information on the employee, the use of benefits on the employee, something around the performance management of the employee, and you have an employee engagement tool that's doing the measuring, and those two are nested and the data can flow between them, you have what you need. And so there are other companies who have what they need and others are heading there now. This is the movement to be able to ask an employee a set of questions and predict what's going on with them and what you need to create a better experience for that employee, which is usually around development and opportunities and promotions and feedback. That's mainly what most people need. Sometimes tailored benefits around things that are going on in their life, like everybody's kind of living through right now. So this is happening at companies now. I'm very much aware of it. We're involved in it by nesting our tool on top of these other platforms, but I would say big companies, Fortune 500 companies, will be totally in this game in 5 years, you know, 100%, and then products will be developed for medium-sized companies and will be in the marketplace--you know, start to enter in about 3 years.Zach: I just find that so intriguing, right? Like, I think about the fact that there's already tools out there that are being mobilized within the next, like, half--within this decade, right? We're gonna start seeing--Micheal: Easily, yeah. At the end of the decade this will--we won't be talking about this.Zach: It won't even be a point of discussion. It's gonna be "Hey, look, no. Your data says this. There's an X percent chance of this happening, and we need to make some adjustments now."Michael: It's absolutely gonna happen, and so machines are already now--at Amazon machines are recommending people for promotion. Machines are recommending people for termination. Machines are doing that. So they're kind of on the cutting edge. Not saying that they're doing that in a great way, I'm just saying--Zach: The technology is out there and it's happening.Michael: It's out there. They're using machine learning tools to make those decisions. Others are going to move on that, and the key is how do you do those things in a way that employees can trust it? Which is a big difference between machine learning and artificial intelligence when there is no trust and a big difference between machine learning and artificial intelligence when there is trust, and if you think about the 60 questions we answer, what are we really, really measuring? It's trust. That's really what we're measuring. Now, we can define it in all its dimensions, but it's trust. Respect is a part of trust. Credibility, transparency is a part of trust. Fairness is a part of trust. So trust is really what we're measuring. We could just double-click all over it to get you additional information, but it's all about trust.Zach: You know, I think--and for me, I'm always curious about when it comes to these lists--and I say this as somebody, of course I love what y'all are doing. I love Great Place to Work. It's the definitive listing space, right? I think it's also interesting because as a black man who has a network of a ton of black and brown people, right, like, we'll look at some of these lists and like, "Dang, okay." I recognize that the overall maybe brand of a company may be really strong, and it's ranked or whatever, but then I wonder like, "Okay, how do I reconcile that with, like, stories that I'm hearing from marginalized people who have had, like, real challenges at these companies?" And I'm curious to know, like, where do you see Great Place to Work continuing to grow and expand to capture, like, marginalized voices and experiences?Michael: Yeah. So Zachary, that's where I was in 2015, exactly where you were, meaning looking at a company--at that time thinking about buying it, looking at the list of the places that were ranked as Great Places to Work, and I knew people of color having horrible experiences in those companies. That's why I bought it, because I'm like, "I think we can do something about this. We can reorder it." And if you look at, you know, 2014, 2013, the companies at the top of that list, they're not at the top now, okay? They're not at the top now, so that's really what happened, but I was exactly where you were and definitely driven to do that. So what it has enabled is, you know, I'm not satisfied by any means. I'm satisfied by the progress, but not by where we are. You know, the thing I talk about it, the bullseye all the time for me is 2030, that that's when we need to get this right, which means--you know, our analytics are driven by algorithms, and so you've got to continually modify the algorithms, and when you modify the algorithm, you've got to live with that algorithm and its output for a year, then you modify it and you've got to live with it for a year. So it's frustrating because it takes a long time, but, you know, we're at the place now where we can say to a company that "Hey, we've measured the experience of different demographic groups, people of color, and we can double-click on it and so on, and their experience is very different from these other groups, therefore you're falling down or off the list." We can do it on that basis now, which that wasn't happening in 2015. There was no way of doing it. We do it now. So we call it maximizing human potential. That's another cheat code, but what it is is we compare one demographic group to another. We reward companies where the gap is small and we penalize companies where the gap is huge. So you can no longer be "80% of our people are having a great time." We go into the people who have given a one or a two response on the Likert scale, you know, that are saying, "My manager involves me in the decisions that affect me? Never or almost never." Okay, well, we grab that group and compare it and put--we give weight to that, a group that it was never done. Another thing is--you know, in terms of there's other lists out there that are recognizing companies, none of them are surveying employees. So really those are marketing-driven exercises.Zach: Right. Those are smiley faces, right?Michael: They are. You know, they're just doing something very different, and so for us, we can let you know--like our diversity lists. You know, there's a few diversity lists, you know, kind of out in the world that are well-known. There's only one that measures and scores the experience of under-represented people. That's Great Place to Work. Our list is driven by their experience, so it doesn't matter, you know, frankly, what white males think about their work experience. We don't measure it for those lists. You know, we don't measure it for those lists. We look at underrepresented people. That's what drives that list. We look at their experience, because that's what it is. For the 100 Best we look at everybody, but we don't for that. So it took us a while, because if I had done that immediately I'd be out of business. So, you know, you've got to build some brand strength and get people to, you know, understand what you're doing and that you're a rational person who wants to grow their business. So it took some time, but we're almost there. I don't feel like we're there right now. We're almost there where we are just pulling in representation into our final ranking criterion. So I feel like we're just about there, and it's enabling us to have some great CEOs who loved being on our list, but now we're able to say, "Hey, guess what?" Even though, you know, we have some companies that, you know, 60, 70% of their workforce are people of color, and they're having a great experience, which is great, but then we look at the top team and we're like, "That doesn't look like them." But the good news is you can have that disconnect and a group of people having a great experience. So that's wonderful, but just think how much better they could be if they could look up and say, "Hey, if I keep working real hard, it's possible for me to get there." "I feel respected now, but I'd really feel respected if that's true." So we're able to talk to CEOs and say, "I know you're happy now." Nobody in hospitality is happy today, but [?] they were happy, 90 days ago they were happy, and you could say, "I know this is great, and I know you're providing a great experience for these people, all these people. That's incredible. We think, you know, the world of you, but you need to do something about this because you'll really unlock them," and the kind of CEOs we deal with, which are the ones who get how this drives their profitability and earnings--and most of these have some moral connection as well in the way that they want to be seen and the way that they want their families to see them. That's kind of another lens that affects a CEO's mindset. So then they go, "Okay, look, I got it," and they don't have to do it, but they choose to do it. So that's when I know, "Okay, this is working now," that this is enabling them to be who they want to be. And a lot of CEOs, I've done a lot of work on the following where you have a CEO moving through their career and just having a great career, a lot of power, a lot of influence, they're happy and satisfied, and then they have a daughter. It changes 'em forever, because then they're like, "I want my daughter to get paid equal pay," but at the company they're running, it's not happening. All of a sudden they start to look at equal pay differently because they had a daughter. I've seen this time and time again, a CEO with a daughter, a CEO with a kid with autism, a CEO with a kid with mental health issues. It modifies the behavior of that CEO and how they--which is great, but that shape-shifting move blows the door open for being a great place to work for all. Now it becomes their thing. They start saying it because they have this new desire to do something and to change the way that others view them and the way that they view themselves.Zach: So first of all this has been an incredible conversation, and, you know, we're coming up on time, Michael, but what I want to do is I want to go back to a word that you used earlier, trust, and really that a lot of these questions go back to--the rankings and the analytics go back to--quantifying trust, and I'm curious to know if you could give us, like, three points of thought that executives should be thinking about when it comes to building better trust within organizations? What would those three points be?Michael: I think that fairness is the most important. So the way you treat a group of people, whether they be analytics versus non-analytics, accountants versus engineers, you need to treat people the same. People read when you're not doing that. They are paying attention to whether you're doing that or not. So being consistent in the way you talk to people, respond to people, what you tweet and what you don't, it matters. So fairness is what's most important, and then making sure your actions--if you say that, you know, diversity drives innovation, people are gonna look and see if you really think that's true. So if you're saying diversity drives innovation and your executive team is not diverse, then now you lose credibility and you're not being transparent and people think it's not fair. The whole pyramid collapses based on you saying one thing and you're actually doing another, and then you want to take a look at your board of directors. You want to take a look at your executive team. You want to take a look at your pipeline and make sure that in 2023 things are going to be different. You want to make sure companies now are restructuring or laying people off. Well, look at the pool that you're laying off. Look at the pool you're restructuring. If you're not careful you're gonna erase ten years of gains is what you're doing right now. So these are the things that build trust. These are the things, fairness more important than anything else. The reason there's resistance to D&I efforts is somehow white men--some--feel like money's being taken out of their pockets.Zach: Right, this scarcity mindset, right?Michael: Yeah, the zero sum game, so you have to--if you have an ERG for African-American professionals, Asian-American professionals, you need to have one that a white male says, "I identify with this one. I identify with this one." They gotta have one too. You can't ignore anyone. It has to be for all.Zach: Michael, this has been great. I just gotta thank you again. Before we go, I'll give you a chance - any shout-outs or parting words, man?Michael: I think that entrepreneurism is a journey that's not for everybody. If you're thinking about it explore it, you know? Talk to some entrepreneurs and see what it's like, but do an honest check with you as to whether or not it's good for you. And then if you're in the corporate environment, lead with the data. You know, the data is what you're gonna need. And know that even if you have all the data, if there are people who aren't interested in diversity and inclusion, you know, the data's not gonna get it done. So, you know, get the data, use the data, make your case with the data, and if you find things are still slow, that's because the leader you're talking to just doesn't want to make a difference. You know, they don't want to change, and so then I'd update my LinkedIn profile and try to find some place where people are using data in the way that they use it for every other decision, whether it be M&A or anything else. You don't want anything different in the D&I area. You just want the consistent behavior, but don't bang your head too long or you're gonna find yourself with a headache.Zach: Michael, thank you so much, man. Look, we're gonna talk to you soon. We consider you a friend of the show. Honored, pleasure to have you. All right, y'all, so that does it for us. This has been Zach with Living Corporate. You know what we do. We're having these authentic conversations even during the rona. I pray that everyone is staying safe out there. You know where to check us out. You can just Google us. We're all over the place, okay? Living Corporate. You type that in and we're gonna pop up on something. You make sure you check us out on our website, living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.us, okay? Livingcorporate dot... shoot, all the livingcorporates except for livingcorporate.com. We've already talked about this. So if you type in livingcorporate.com it's gonna take you to some Australian website. [?] Australia, but we don't have that domain, okay? So livingcorporate.co, .us, .tv, or living-corporate.com. 'Til next time, y'all. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Michael C. Bush, CEO of Great Place to Work. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Zach chats with Race2Dinner co-founders Regina Jackson and Saira Rao about the genesis of Race2D, how exactly its dinners take place, their experiences running it and so much more. This episode features explicit language. Listener discretion is advised!Connect with Saira on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram, and connect with Regina on Twitter.Interested in learning more about Race2Dinner? Check out their website.Follow Race2Dinner on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Now, look, you know that we try to keep it clean on Living Corporate, but every now and then we have folks come on who are impassioned, and we are not ones to censor anybody if we really believe in the heart of what it is that they're saying and the mission that they're doing. So the conversation you're about to hear does contain some harsh language, so listener discretion is advised. Catch y'all next time.What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you know what we do. We're having real talk in a corporate world. How do we do that? We talk to black and brown entrepreneurs, executives, activists... let me see here, what else? Public servants, creatives, artists, influencers, educators, you know what I'm saying? Anybody who is black and brown or an aspirational ally. We try to have them on the podcast and have real conversations, right? These real conversations are centering underrepresented and marginalized voices. We're having conversations that often go unhad or whispered in a corner. We're trying to have those out loud and on a digital platform so that they can be accessible to everybody, and we do this weekly, and we have dope dope dope dope DOPE guests. So today we have two guests at the same time, yo, at the same time. Saira Rao and Regina Jackson. Yo, so let me--so I got these two bios here, y'all. Y'all know what we do. You know I try to read the bios just so y'all can have an idea of what's going on, then we get into it. So here we go. Saira Rao grew up in Richmond, Virginia, the daughter of Indian immigrants. For forty years, she wasted her precious time aspiring to be white and accepted by dominant white society, a futile task for anyone not born with white skin. Several years ago, Saira began the painful process of dismantling her own internalized oppression. Saira is a lawyer-by-training, a former congressional candidate, a published novelist and an entrepreneur. Now, look here, if y'all don't recognize what kind of podcast this is about to be by the bio that I read that they gave me, listen, I'ma just go ahead and drop the Flex bomb right now. It's about to be spicy in here. Now we'll go ahead and go Regina. Now, born in 1950, Regina remembers an America where everything was in Black and white. Burned into her memory are; the beatings and horrific treatment of civil rights workers throughout the South, the Goodman, Chaney & Schwerner murders, the murder of Viola Liuzzo, the murder of Martin Luther King, Jr. and the murders of President John Kennedy and his brother Robert. The violence perpetrated on innocent people going about their lives by white people, it is these memories that drive Regina to push for real change in America, which is why she co-founded Race2Dinner. Saira and Regina, welcome to the show. How are y'all doing?Regina: You know, I'm doing great. Saira?Saira: I'm doing pretty well, thank you.Zach: So I read some bios, but can we get into y'all's own stories as to why Race2Dinner came to be and how?Saira: Well, like my bio said, I ran for Congress exactly two years ago, and I ran in--we live in Denver, which is a predominantly white city, and I ran on an explicitly anti-racism [platform] about the racism within the Democratic Party, which, you know, we know there's--the Republican Party's entire platform is racism, but there's ample racism within the Democratic Party. And so, you know, what I found was a long line of white ladies wanting to have coffees, breakfasts, lunches and dinners with me, and 99.9% of the time it was for them to tell me very indignantly that it's not them, "not all white women," and then they tick off all their civil rights accomplishments in the past and their safety pins and how awesome they are, and really just telling me about how I had them wrong, that they were individual--you know, "Stop painting all white people as the same," and so, anyway, I had to do those because I was running for office and I needed to [?]. After I lost in June of 2018, I became a big target of sort of the alt-right, Breitbart, Fox, those places, and the invitations for these lunches and dinners didn't dissipate as I had hoped. They just got more and more and more. And I continued to do these lunches and dinners in good faith, recognizing by the way I was not just out hours and hours of my time. It also took a tremendous toll on my mental health. And by the way, these ladies never picked up the bill. And I was, you know, paying for dinner [?] for babysitting because I have two small children. Anyway, that's when last December this happened with Regina.Regina: So when Saira ran for office, I immediately fell in love with her because she was talking about racism that doesn't get talked about in the United States, and she was talking very provocatively about racism. She wasn't being nice. She wasn't not using the white privilege and white people. I mean, she was talking it, so I immediately volunteered for her campaign. I worked on her campaign and got to know Saira, and I was like, "Wow, I really like this woman." So I had had a white friend who said to me--she said, you know, "I'm just over Saira. She hates white people, and I'm just gonna be done with her," and then in the next breath she says to me, "But if you can arrange it, I'd like to go to lunch with her to talk about it." So I talked to [Saira] and Saira said to me--she said, "You know what, Regina? I'm not doing that anymore," she said, "But I'll tell you what. If she wants to have a dinner and invite some of her white lady friends and you do it with me," she said, "I'd be happy to do that," and thus was born Race2Dinner.Zach: Wow. It's--okay, so let's talk a little bit about, Regina, the exchange that you had. Why do you believe that your friend at the time said that Saira hates white people?Regina: Well, because Saira was saying she hated white people. [everyone laughs]Saira: [laughing] No, I didn't. I didn't say that. No.Zach: [hold on a minute there playa sfx, laughing]Regina: Okay, it's up for debate. [laughs]Saira: No, I literally never said that. So the thing about this particular woman was that I said that Beto O'Rourke is a white savior, and she was one of these women who was, like, obsessed with Beto O'Rourke and went to Texas to volunteer for Beto O'Rourke, and I said, you know, Beto O'Rourke is a white savior, and I also donated to his campaign, and if I lived in Texas I would vote for him. You can actually, you know, hold various things to be true.Zach: At the same time, yeah.Saira: At the same time, and so that's what sent her over the edge. And that's actually--at the dinner she brought that up as the thing that sent her over the edge, and she, you know, got really angry when I wouldn't budge on the fact that Beto O'Rourke is a white savior. Frankly, I think Beto O'Rourke might acknowledge himself that he's a white savior. And so, anyway, she cried. She got super mad. She did all the stuff that white ladies too.Regina: This is a white woman who called herself my friend. She thanked me for, you know, teaching her about racism and helping her to be a non-racist. She told me how much she loved me all the time, blah blah blah. When we started our Race2Dinner website and we decided to do a Patreon, you know, where people sign up for $5 a month or $12 a month. This white woman, who had told me--she's a widow, never had any children--that her income after her husband died is $200,000 a year, and I said, "Will you sign up for our Patreon?" She told me to put it [?] on Facebook. Needless to say, we are no longer friends, 'cause she talks the talk but she doesn't want to walk the walk.Zach: So you're saying she has over 200--I'm sorry, but I'm shocked, 'cause I come from humble beginnings, right? And I'm not from Denver. Like, I'm from the South. So, like, you said--just to go back a second, you said her income is over $200,000 a year?Saira: Yeah, and she won't spend $60 a year on our labor, on our writing. She wanted us to put it on Facebook for free.Regina: And see, we have really been talking about that issue, how white people don't want to see black and brown women especially paid for our work. Now, you know, they'll pay $40,000 to go hear--what's her name?Saira: Glennon Doyle.Regina: Yeah, Glennon Doyle, but they can't pay us for our labor in a personal, private, small group conversation?Saira: That includes dinner and booze.Regina: That's more white people nonsense, and I'm not having it.Zach: I mean, at a certain point you're just like [what more do you want from me? sfx] You know? Like, what is this? Like, what are we doing? Like, y'all see this effort. Y'all know that it's valuable. Recognize it financially. And y'all know that the way this system is built--capitalistically--that we need the bread to survive, so come on. Like, come up off. So I hear that, and it's interesting, 'cause Race2Dinner, it reminds me--and I want y'all to walk me through this format, 'cause I've been to a couple of events like this where, like, you get together over dinner and you talk about quote-unquote culture. I want to understand though. Like, talk to me about the format of Race2Dinner, how it works, and just how it's set up.Regina: Okay. Well, one of the first things I think there is to recognize is that most white people don't even know that they [?], okay? In the book "Waking Up White" by Debbie Irving, she talks about white culture, and us as non-white people, we recognize it because we have had to live it in order to, like you say, survive. It's perfection. It's being nice to everybody.Saira: It's talking about nothing.Regina: Yeah, don't talk about hard stuff. Don't upset people. You know, that's the culture that we were all raised in, and they still want to just talk nice, and we say, "You know what?" The other thing is they're all in their feelings. "You made me feel." Can we curse on this show?Zach: Yes, absolutely. Go ahead.Regina: [laughs] And I love to say, "Fuck your feelings." [Zach laughs] That's between you and your universe. That has nothing to do with me, but they are always up in their feelings, and that's one of the things--in Race2Dinner, if you have to cry, you have to leave the room. Zach: Really? If you start to cry, you are [?] from the table?Saira: Yeah, cry or get really angry. But to answer your question about painting a picture for you. So, you know, why is it dinners? People say is it "Why is it dinners? Why can't you do conferences and keynotes?" Blah blah blah. Here's what we know about white women. White women are devoted to being nice and polite, and there's nothing more impolite than getting up and leaving the dinner table, period. The setting is a beautiful dinner table in a woman's house where she's serving dinner and she's pouring wine. And so this is the white woman's happy place and safe place, a dinner party with other white women, right? And, you know, every once in a while maybe they go to dinner parties where there's A black woman or An Asian woman or A Latina woman, but, like, you know, they feel very comfortable, so they come in and kiss kiss, "Oh, my God, how are you? You look great, you look great," the whole nine yards. And then they sit down, and instead of "Oh, my God. What are your kids doing this summer for summer camp? Oh, my God. My husband's irritating me." We just--it's very, very much like this. Like, everyone go around the table and say why you're here, and you literally have, like, a minute or two to do that. 'Cause early on we were like, "Why are you here?" And they would just, like, pull out their resume and start telling us about how they volunteered at Planned Parenthood and they went to a Black Lives Matter rally and whatever, and so--anyway, after that, the next question is "Please go around the table and name one way in which your racism has presented itself in an action that you've done recently," and then they basically fall out of their chair. Like, you might see pee come down their legs, because it's like... they can't leave. They all want to freak out and run out of the room, but they can't because they've got this nice beef tenderloin and a glass of Chardonnay sitting there and it would be rude as fuck to do that. So then they have to actually do that.Regina: And we used to--we just changed that format, because we used to [have] everybody introduce themselves, and then we'd talk about our background and why we were there, and what we found is we would have two or three women in every dinner who would not say a freaking word. You know, the lurkers. So we finally said, "This is not okay. If people are going to be here, they need to engage." So we make everybody talk about, you know, "This is why I'm here, and this is how I notice racism in myself."Saira: In myself. So, you know, you go to one of these, like, liberal white person dinner parties, and they're sitting around for hours trashing Donald Trump and trashing the Republicans and talking about--like, they pat themselves on the back. It's like the Backpatting Olympics, right? Who is the most awesome white person in the room? This is a place--and by the way, they try. So, like, at the last dinner party--and look, these are not bad people. We've got to break down this false binary of racist bad, not racist good. That shuts down the conversation. But there's a white lady there who's lovely and [?], and we asked her "What is the racist thing you've done?" And she starts rambling, and then she says, you know, a friend of hers ends every conversation with "Me love you long time." And all the other women were like, "What?" And I was like, "No, no, no. How are YOU racist? Stop deflecting it to your friend." In that case, which she could have easily said--but she didn't, she can't [?] anything else--is "I'm racist because I've never shut that down." So that's the silence is complicity. So all this, like, "The Republicans are bad," what about you? Like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? Like, silence is complicity, you know? And even though the Republicans are quote "bad," white America allowed this to go on. Donald Trump didn't invent racism. He just capitalized on it.Regina: That was my turning point, this whole Make America Great nonsense. I'm like, "No. I'm done with white people nonsense. I'm done." You know, they need to step up and call a thing and be the wonderful people that they seem to think they are.Zach: And Regina, so your profile, the fact that you were--you know, like, you were active. Like, you was moving around during the civil rights movement and you're still here in 2020. So, like, have you ever had situations where people have, like, either alluded to or told you to, like, get over it or it was a really long time ago or times have changed, and if so, like, how do you react or respond in those situations?Regina: You know, I don't think anybody would tell me that. [everybody laughs] But I have [this?] attitude. You know how us black women can give off that "Don't fuck with me today?" Zach: Yes. [everybody laughing]Regina: [?] going on generally 24/7. It's like--[to this day sfx] So not today, not ever. Not having it.Zach: Oh, my goodness. I love it. The spice. The energy on this podcast, it's reached incredible levels, and we're really just, like, still in the beginning. So when it comes to--and even, like, honestly, like, the tone of this conversation, right, the unapologetic, like, very to the point manner in which y'all are speaking and in which, like, I see, like, your website communicates as well as your online personas. I'm curious about what feedback or critique you get when it comes to, like, the idea of civility, right? 'Cause I feel like even today there's a lot of folks who are still, like, really hanging their shingle on civility, and they use it almost, like, as a cudgel to, like, silence voices. I'm curious as to how y'all respond to that.Saira: That's what it is. Calls for civility is calls for silencing. And I'm just curious, when has--so civility is code for being nice, right? When has nice saved people of color [?]? Like, was niceness there to save Trayvon Martin? Is being nice saving the brown and black people who are dying in concentration camps around the country? Is niceness [saving?] the Palestinians, upon whom we are, you know, aiding [Israel? and dropping bombs upon them?] Like, being nice is code for doing whatever the fuck you want to oppress people and not getting called out for it. That's what being nice is.Regina: Exactly. And remember that Dr. King said that white [moderates,] they would rather have order than justice. You know what? I'm not about order. Fuck your rules, okay? Fuck hurting your feelings. Fuck being nice. Let's talk the real deal. Let's talk about how you're hurting black and brown children, how black boys and girls get treated in school, how black people are being [?] out of their communities onto the streets by gentrification? Let's talk about all that, and if it requires me to be nice, then it ain't happening.Saira: Yeah, you know what's super not nice? Stop and Frisk. You know what's super not nice? The Muslim ban. You know what's super not nice? These concentration camps. And so I'll tell you what though, Zach, is, you know, before I even ran for Congress I spent a year, 2017, going the civil way. I went to the University of Virginia, and at that time most of my [?] in life were friends that I had met at the University of Virginia, overwhelmingly white women. By the way, like, I was in an all-white sorority and I wore [Laura Ashley?]. So I used to think that I was a white woman. [?] And I tried. You know, I did dinners with these friends. I cried, they cried. I made them--you know, I patted them on the back. I massaged their feet. I think I might have painted a toenail or two. I mean, I did all the nice, civil things, and every single time--it was, like, straight out of an SNL skit... which, by the way, SNL is also a toxic, white, liberal mess, but it was, you know, "We don't like your tone. You just seem really angry." My favorite from one of these women was "What are you doing? You're completely alienating everyone." And I said to her, "Who's everyone?" And I said, "Are you unaware that there are people of color who actually are in agreement with what I'm saying?" And she was like, "Oh, I never thought of that," because she literally--the only people of color [she knows?] were me, one--and she's a nurse, so a couple of her colleagues. She has a black woman colleague and a brown woman colleague, and she said to me, "Well, I asked them, and they said that they think you're crazy, and, like, [that?] racism is untrue." And I'm like, "They're not [safe?] to say that. You're, like, their boss," you know? And somebody said--it's very funny. They're like, "If you're white and you have a brown or black friend who doesn't talk about white people, then you don't have a brown or black friend." Regina: I was gonna say, now, my big thing, I started working, volunteering, mentoring in a high school about six years ago, and I would--the woman who ran the program and started the program woudl tell me all the time that I hurt her feelings. You know, everything you say hurts their feelings, and I sounded like I was angry, and I just started saying, "You know what? I'm mad as hell, and I could give a shit about your feelings, so deal with it." She finally resigned, and I [?], and now the program is being run by people of color.Saira: Yeah. And by the way, like, of course we're angry. I'm sorry. Like, white women literally go batshit crazy if their spin class instructor is 5 minutes late. Go fucking crazy, right? They're angry and it's fine, like, that's fine, but we're not supposed to be angry about systemic oppression. We're not allowed to be angry about that, but they can be angry about a yoga instructor or a spin class instructor being 5 minutes late. It just goes to show you they don't care--it's not only that they don't care, they actively are fine with being participants in this. They just don't want you to call them out for it, and in some ways that's the difference between Republican woman and Democratic women, the 50% that voted for Donald Trump versus the one who kind of sat idly by on let Donald Trump win, you know? Do you know how many white liberal women I know who voted for Hillary Clinton, but their husbands voted for Donald Trump, and they didn't speak a word [?] Hillary Clinton. They didn't put a Hillary Clinton sign in their yard. When I would come into their house they would be like, "You can't talk about Hillary Clinton here because of So-and-so." So what's the difference between the husband who is voting for Donald Trump and the wife who is silent? Nothing. You know, feasance versus non-feasance. It's all the same thing. Not acting is acting.Zach: And so I'm curious, like, again, the delivery of this, and even with the [criticism?] that you've received like "You're not being nice" or "It's not being [?]" or whatever the case may be, and yet Race2Dinner is a whole organization. Like, y'all are an active organization, so clearly--Regina: That's the other thing [?]. These white women want to say, "Well, what do we do with our money?" It's like, "It's not your business. Do you go into Nordstroms and say, "What do you do with your money?" We're not a non-profit. This is a business."Zach: And so I'm curious. Like, it seems as if your approach was so off-putting and alienating that your business would not be viable, and yet it is, right? [Both: Yeah.] So talk me through--Saira: That's a good question. You just asked the question "Why?" One woman put it to us like this not too long ago, and I think this is it. She said a lot of stuff. She's the woman who said to us--I said at this dinner, particularly dinner, you all don't see Regina and I as your [equals.] You don't see our humanity. You do not see our children and grandchildren as your children and grandchildren's equals. You don't see their humanity. 7 out of the 8 of them just shook their head. "Oh, my God. Wrong, wrong, wrong," right? Woman to my left, you know, God bless her, she paused before she spoke and she said, "You know what? I'm not gonna lie. I don't. I don't see the two of you as my equal. I don't see your humanity. I don't see your children and your grandchildren, Regina, as equal to mine," and there was a collective gasp, right? Like, they couldn't believe it, and then little by little they were like, "Yeah. I mean, that's right," and at the end of the dinner this woman said, "I feel such a sense of relief. I feel relieved," because white supremacy kills everybody, including white people. It's like a disease. It's toxic and it kills you. And she said, "This is the first time I've been able to actually acknowledge this to myself, say it out loud, say it in a room full of my peers and say it front of the people that I harm every [day?]," and I think that's it right there. She articulated why we're able to get people to come to these dinners, because it is a relief for them, at least, you know, the ones who are willing to accept it and come in with fully open minds and leave their fragility at the [door.] I think it's a relief.Regina: And, you know, one of the things that I want white women to do--and I don't know why it's so hard, but it is, is to just step up when you see injustice, when you see racism, when you hear it, call that shit out and let things fall where they fall. They never do that. They're always dependent on us to be the ones calling it out, and I'm like, "Y'all started this shit. Get in here and stop it." Saira: Right, just like men created and benefit from misogyny, so men have to dismantle misogyny. We can't. Women cannot. Similarly, white people created and benefit from white supremacy, so they're the ones who have to do it. So this is--by the way, we don't allow for other women of color in the room, because the one time we did--it was a Chicago dinner. There was another Indian woman in the room, and so, you know, she's a member of the community. These are people that she sees at pick-up and drop-off at her kid's school. Every time we were speaking, looking at her and waiting to see and asking, "Well, do you feel like this? Do you feel like this?" It was a deeply unsafe space for her, just like my nurse friend asking her women of color colleagues if they felt like that. That's not safe, right? So we don't want to put other women of color in a situation where they're answering to white women in that room because it's not safe for them.Zach: In y'all's experience of having this organization, this [business?], and facilitating these dinners, like, what has been the most eye-opening experience?Regina: My most eye-opening experience is we had a dinner with several white women, 8, and maybe 4 of them had adopted children of color, okay? Black children, and we had one young woman--I would say she was maybe in her 30s. She had adopted a young black boy. This woman had the audacity to say that if her family and friends said something racist or harmful to or about her child--Saira: In front of her child.Regina: In front of her child! She did not correct them because they loved him. That's the biggest [?] I've ever heard in my life, and if I could've taken that kid away from her I would have done it.Zach: And so then--you know, a piece recently came out--and Saira, this was something that you actually tweeted about. I believe it was someone who actually attended a Race2Dinner event, and they said, you know, "Most folks don't like Saira."Saira: Well, she said, "A lot of people hate Saira." [everyone laughs]Regina: And I'm like, "There, it's out there. We can get over it." [laughing] Saira: Yeah.Zach: And so I'm curious about what does it to look like--like, what does it look like to continue to do this work in light of those types of critiques? Like, where do you get your strength and resilience from to continue this type of work?Saira: It's not easy. I'll say Regina's a big source of strength and a big source of resilience for me. Here's the deal. It's a process, right? And I would be completely lying if I said it didn't bother me when--you know, look, I've gotten used to most of it. I've gotten used to the white supremacist trolls. I've gotten used to the Nazis. What I do not enjoy is getting doxxed. That happened over the weekend by a white woman in Abu Dhabi. Doxxed me and my family, so put out our private information and tried to send Nazis to come hurt my family. I do not enjoy that. I don't enjoy that my children get left out of things, you know, because their moms hate my guts. I don't like that. It's uncomfortable a little bit to run into these old friends of mine around town, and I know what they think of me and I know what they say about me. I don't love that, but, you know, besides that, it's okay. It sounds really weird. Like, I'm actually okay, because I realized that I was filling my life with a lot of nonsense, and how many times--I mean, you know, I was thinking back on this because we're working on a bunch of stuff, but I've had to, like, dig deep, how many times--I was at a party once in college with these friends. It wasn't even a party. It was a dinner, right? And I couldn't leave because it would have been rude to leave. And it was two white women sitting across from me who were not really close friends, me, and then this white woman to my left who was a very good friend, and one white woman said to the other--her last name is an Asian last name but she's white, and she said, "Oh, my God. When I got the letter in the mail that you were gonna be my roommate, I freaked out and I said to my parents, "What have I done in my life to deserve an [Asian?] roommate?"" And they started laughing, and they were like, "And look, it turned out great!" And my friend to the left of me, she was laughing too, and I was just sitting there stunned, and I said, "Hey, you guys. I'm Asian," and then they all took another sip of their [beer?], like, spit it out laughing, and they go, "Oh, yeah, but you're not one of those kind of Asians." And I said, "No, I am. I'm actually 100%--" They go, "You know, like, the accent and, like, the weird food--"Zach: Weird food?Saira: Yeah, "And the smelly, weird food," and I looked to my friend, and she just sat there and was laughing with them, and so I did what I had always done, which I started laughing too. So I sold myself down the river and I upheld--that's how [people of color?] uphold white supremacy is I laughed as well and I let it go. How many of those experiences have I had in my life? I cannot even count them. There are too many to count, and so I'm living an honest life, and you know what that means, living an honest life? If that [means I'm hated?], so be it. Hate me.Regina: You know, as a black woman, I have learned many, many years ago that the only way I can sruvive is I affirm myself on a daily basis. I know who I am. I know what is okay with me. I know what's not okay. So when people start talking shit, "Regina's this, that and the other--" And I tell my mentees that. The best way to have a good life is know who you are. Affirm yourself, and when you get crap from anybody else, you don't have to own that because you know who you are.Saira: Yeah. And Zach, just further to that by the way, I'm trying to start affirming myself because Regina really truly is the most [evolved?] person I know. I think a big part of why a lot of people come at me--and it's all kinds of people. It's not just white people. It's black people, it's Indian people, it's Latino people. It's I'm the first generation of the "model minority" born and raised in this country, right? So we're new, and we're supposed to stay in our lane, and we're supposed to be extremely grateful and not call out white supremacy because we are the model minority. So there's something extremely jarring to have an Asian lady in the middle of Colorado speaking like this. I think that's a big part of it too. I mean, lots and lots and lots and lots of South Asian people really hate my guts.Regina: They just want her to shut up.Saira: You know? They will say--I had [?] Indian people say to me, "Stop talking about Black Lives Matter," and I was like, "They know that there's a Muslim ban. Like, they know." So I'm so confused. I mean, you're called Apu how many times a week? You're called [?] how many times? And they're just, like, pretending like it didn't happen. And really funny, the only Indian/South Asian PAC didn't invite me to their gala in 2018 when I was running for Congress, and so [Andrew Yang?] actually invited me to go as his guest. And so I went. I flew out and I get there, and it's 8 other--something like that, 8 other--South Asians all [?]. By the way, they're all, like, super white platforms and [?], and I show up with Andrew and everyone's literally like, "Who the fuck brought her?" Like, "Why did you all bring her?" I mean, it was just really funny. I mean, it's funny "haha," but yeah, like, my own people hate my guts. Regina: You will love this. Saira says at our dinners, "I'm anti-black and all of you are racist," and I go, "Guess what? Black people know that." We know that every immigrant group thinks they're better than us. We know everybody would rather be whatever than black. That's not news.Saira: So we talk about. So I just want to add that one last thing to what Regina said. You know, we'll say, "Who's racist in this room?" And most of the time no one raises their hand except for me, and they're like, "Wait, what?" And [I'm like?] "[I'm Asian?], so I've been trained institutionally to be anti-black," and then they'll look at Regina because then the next step--you know, Step 1 is dividing and conquering, and they look at Regina like, "Oh, my God. Look. You've got an anti-black colleague here." Regina's like, "All Asians are anti-black." Like, if I'm asking white people to acknowledge their own institutional bigotry, it would be wildly hypocritical of me and completely lack of self-aware if I wasn't able and unwilling to do that myself.Zach: And so it's interesting because, like--I just find it all so very intriguing, because, like, the closer we get--and I'm continuing to have conversations about the fact that November is coming up, and, like, the closer that we get to November, it's interesting that we're, like--a lot of us are still kind of moving, like, business as usual, but--Regina: I know! It's scary.Zach: It's really strange, right? Like, even though, like, we remember all of the chaos, like, that happened four years ago, like, in and outside the workplace. I recall the work day--Regina: [?] the election.Saira: We know that. We know that.Zach: Right, and so it's just strange to me that, like, even from a diversity, equity and inclusion perspective that we're not really talking about that. Like, we're not preparing--Regina: Yeah. Where is the [Congressional Black Causus?] Where the fuck are they? [everyone laughing]Zach: Oh, my gosh. This has been--oh, man, this is great. But no, I find it really curious, I find it really curious. So Race2Dinner, it's white women attending the dinners, and then you both are facilitating the dinner. What do you believe it is about--like, 'cause typically we talk about gender equity and we're rarely intersectional. We rarely talk in [?]. We typically just say "men and women," and the default of course there is white women. It seems as if there's still a lot of work to be done when it comes to white women understanding their place when it comes to understanding diversity, equity and inclusion and how they fit in this role and, like, what power they wield, and I'm curious, why do you think there's still a reticence to engage that? Even from, like, just an intellectual exercise?Regina: Well, you know, I like to say, first of all, you all--everything you've made has been on the backs of black people. Let's get that out there first, okay? So that's the first thing they need to understand. They wouldn't have what they have today if black people had not fought and died [in] the civil rights movement. So that's the first thing I want to say. The second thing, when we talk about intersectionality, we're really talking about black women and their intersection of both race and sex. So white women--this is what we try to say. You know, the foot of patriarchy is on your neck just like it's on yours. You want to continue earning 75 cents for every dollar the white man earns? Fine. But if you want ever to have equity, enjoy the same rights that white males do, you better come and join us, because we've been fighting this for a long time, and we're gonna continue to fight it with or without you, but they also have the proximity to the power. They have the proximity to the money. These are their fathers, their uncles, their brothers, their sons. So that's why they need to be engaged in this.Saira: Well, and the reason, you know, they always pick whiteness over gender is because they're benefiting greatly from whiteness, and so they've been born and raised--but they would never say that, right? That's the lack of honesty and transparency. They've been born and raised to see themselves as the greatest victims on the planet because they are below white men. So that's it. That's where their analysis of inequity--that's where it stops. It starts and stops on them being the biggest victims on the planet, and as a result they erase women of color. We don't even exist in their minds. I'll tell you what, Zach. Use this whole hoopla around the 19th Amendment 100-Year anniversary this year. It's a great window into white feminism. Susan Becky Anthony totally fucked black women, right? So the 19th Amendment [was not?] the women's right to vote. That was the white women's right to vote. And so we're not--like, black and brown women are not celebrating the 19th Amendment, but you would think all of these freaking white suits all over the place running around and talking about how this was, you know, the year that women [?]--that's not true, and there's a direct line between Susan B. Anthony and Nancy Pelosi who regularly throws her women of color colleagues under the bus, starting with Maxine Waters and every member of the squad. So I'm tired of it. I'm tired of white women, you know, lumping all women's rights together. That's not true. That's just not true.Regina: And they know it.Saira: They know it. They're pretending like they don't know it.Regina: See, the biggest issue that we have is them pretending that they don't know shit. They're here to pretend like they don't know how bad it is for women of color. They know. They're gonna pretend like, you know, we're all treated equally. They know. So I want them to stop pretending and tell the fucking truth.Saira: We ask every dinner--this is well over 100 white women around the country--how many of you would trade places with me or Regina? Guess how many of them have raised their hands. Guess.Zach: Zero.Regina: The first dinner. No, one from the first dinner, remember? That we filmed?Saira: Yeah. I mean, it's between zero to one. So they were [?] about that, so they know. They know. So they first tell us that they wouldn't trade places with us because they're better than we are, and then they'll all say--they stopped doing this though because we put an end to this nonsense--"I'm just hear to listen and learn. I'm just here to learn." You already know because you wrote the book about white supremacy. You had it optioned [?]. You've made every film. It's won every Oscar. It's been exported to every country around the world. It's been translated into every language. And you're asking us to explain the book that you wrote? Like, I'm so--that's bullshit. That's bullshit, and we are not [?]--that's fine, that's the way it is, but we're not here for it. We're not here for your stupid ass lies.Regina: That's right.Zach: [laughs]Regina: We can tell you can't wait to have dinner with us, right?Zach: No, no, I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I actually have some mentors that would love this, and actually what I really want to do is I want to give y'all space. So we'll make sure we'll put all your information in the show notes, but I want to give you actually some space, like, to plug all your information. Where can [they learn?] more, how people can sign up, all of that.Saira: Race2Dinner, R-A-C-E-2-dinner.com, and find me on Twitter--I'm Tweeting quite often--@sairasameerarao. Regina: Regina Jackson. I'm on Twitter @ReginaJacksonMe... I think. You know, I'm old. I don't know all this stuff. [both laugh] But we have a couple of great people working with us who schedule all of our dinners, and you can reach them through the website. And also we have a Race2Dinner Facebook page, and Race2Dinner is on Twitter, and Race2Dinner is on Instagram.Saira: And we're also, Zach, starting to do corporate executive teams, so boards and executive teams, because they seem to need it because diversity and inclusion is a big hoax, as you know, and, like, 95% of diversity and inclusion is run by white women. And hey, companies, white women are not diverse and are not inclusive. Regina: Well, and where do you think they get their information about racism?Saira: Yeah.[Flex bomb sfx]Saira: What we've heard from a lot of--like, the three non-white diversity and inclusion officers in the country have talked to us and said, you know, "How great would it be if you two could come in and say the things to the board and my colleagues that we can't say without getting fired?" They can get fired. We can say the shit they can't.Regina: And I just had this conversation with my husband yesterday. We've got some things going on in Colorado with our judiciary. The office of the Supreme Court in Colorado has nine black employees out of 260 something, and none of those are at a management level. So we were having this conversation and I said to him, "You know, Gary, me and Saira, we can talk shit 'cause we don't have to answer to anybody. I don't have to keep a job. We don't have to play politics. We get to just call a thing a thing." Saira: And I think ultimately, if we want to blow a little smoke up our bums, I think that people kind of like us at these dinners.Regina: I could care. [laughs]Saira: No, no, but he's asking why they [?].Regina: Oh, yeah. They want to be our friends. They want black and brown people to like them. And this is really interesting. I just--while we're talking about this, I just got a three-page letter from a white woman friend of mine--[I've known?] her probably 40 years--who is married to a black man, and in the letter she wanted--she had read The Guardian and she wanted to know about if we were gonna take on the issue of how white women that are married to black women are treated in black women spaces, okay? So that's what she wrote me about, and I talked to my husband and I said, "Here's the issue. We can't trust you." I said, "When 53% of [white women] voted for Donald Trump, and then they want to tell us, "Oh, we're in your corner," we can't trust you." So until we can trust you, I doubt that we're gonna accept you.Saira: Yeah, and Regina said that at one dinner last summer. You know, we were talking about trust, and one of the women said, "Well, that hurts my feelings. You mean to tell me you don't trust any of us in this room?" And she goes, "No, I do." She goes, "I trust Saira with my life," but she goes, "I don't trust the rest of you bitches." [both laughing]Regina: You know, it is what it is. In order to be trusted you have to be trustworthy, and white women have not proven themselves to be that.Saira: Not just that, they've proven themselves to NOT be that.Regina: Yeah.Zach: And so then, you know, in some of the pieces that I read about Race2Dinner, I know that there are executive leaders who are white women who attend Race2Dinner, and I'm curious about, from your perspective, what is it that you're seeing leaders are doing or not doing that is hampering inclusiveness and equity in their respective workforces?Saira: We just had a dinner in Chicago, what, like, two weeks ago, and I would say this was one of those--you were asking what were sort of the most poignant moments, well, this was one of the more poignant moments for me because we kind of saw the whole ecosystem at play. So this woman is a nurse in Chicago, and she said--and she, like, got teary, and she said a month earlier she was in a meeting with 9 other white women nurses and doctors and their boss, who's a white guy. A doctor, okay? A doctor. These are people who deal with brown and black lives all the time. And he said that the big thing they need to tackle in 2020 [was?] hiring foreign-born doctors, and she said, "Well, guess what I did?" And we were like, "We know what you did. Nothing, right?" So she said, "I went through the whole thing in my head. "Maybe he didn't mean it." But she was like, "No, all the foreign-born people that we've been hiring, Norwegian and French doctors. We had been hiring brown and black doctors." And she said, "I didn't say anything. I didn't say a word." And I said, "Did anyone else?" And she said no. So that to me was like, "Oh, my God." And I said, "[?] that. So you just upheld--what you all, the ten of you white women did, was every bit as toxic as what the white guy did."Regina: And harmful.Saira: And harmful. And so, you know, I said, "What if you broke the cycle there? What if you had said something?" And then Regina of course said, which is true, "Here are some of the ramifications. Let's play this out. You could have been fired, right? They would make up an excuse to fire you. "You've become a troublemaker" or whatever. You become demoted. You're ghosted. All the stuff that we've experienced, but they would think twice before saying and doing this harmful stuff the next time. Like, using your voice in these professional settings is so important because it moves the needle in a way that [?] they can actually move the needle. And, you know, she totally got it. Meanwhile, white lady to her right does exactly what they always do 'cause they need to set themselves apart. She goes, "Ugh, I can't believe that you did that. I would never do that." I was like, "No, no, no. Like, let's back it up. Of course you would, and you do, so why do you feel--" She goes, "Well, I know that you think that it's not possible that I'm not like that," and I was like, "You're all like that by training, you know?" And so, anyway, it was the need to separate herself from, you know, classic white woman behavior, and what was great is the other women at the table did come after that woman and say, "Come on, you know that we all do this. We're all silent at dinner tables. We're all silent in executive meetings."Regina: Exactly. One of the things that I make sure that I tell women, this is just the beginning. If you are going to be in this work, #1: It's work. You will be doing this for the rest of your life. #2: If you expect to gain anything, boy, are you wrong. You're gonna lose. You're gonna lose relationships. You're gonna lose jobs. You're gonna lose friends. This is not a winning game. It's not a winning game for us, and it's definitely not a winning game for white people.Zach: Oooh. See, I don't have sound effects for, like, spiciness. That's why I've been dropping that Flex bomb from time to time, but I will say this has been incredible. Before we let y'all go, any parting words?Regina: I want to shout-out to Genevieve and Lisa.Saira: The two white women who work with us.Regina: Yep.Zach: Come on, white ladies. [air horns sfx]Regina: Thank you for having us on this show, and I'm looking forward to listening to this interview.Zach: We're looking forward to everybody hearing it. Y'all, yo, now, I told y'all at the top of this it was gonna be spicy, so y'all don't--don't be emailing me with your complaints. You want to see the manager? I'm the manager. Y'all know we are unbought and unbossed, okay?Regina: That manager stuff doesn't work with me, so I get you. [laughs]Zach: Yes. No, it's not. All the emails go to me, Ade and Aaron, so we not--nope. [laughs] Y'all, this has been--man, this has been a dope conversation. You've been listening to the co-founders of Race2Dinner, and just thank y'all, thank y'all. Saira Rao, Regina Jackson. Make sure you check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Just Google us, you know what I'm saying? If you look up Living Corporate we're gonna pop up there. SEO is strong enough, okay? Check us out on all of our domains, www.living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We got all the different domains, y'all, we just don't have livingcorporate.com yet. Like, Australia owns livingcorporate.com, but one day we're gonna get that domain too. And shoot, if you have questions just make sure you just DM us. DMs are wide open. You don't have to follow us back. We're thirsty like that. Just hit us up. You can also email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Until next time, this again has been Zach, and you've been listening to Regina Jackson and Saira Rao, co-founders of Race2Dinner. Make sure y'all check out the information in your show notes, and make sure you sign up and go to have a racy conversation. All right, y'all. Peace.

Zach sits down with former StubHub and Facebook alum Bärí A. Williams to chat about intersectional identities. Bärí also talks about her upcoming book "Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Jumpstart Conversations about Identity, Privilege, and Bias" dropping March 31st. She shares what inspired her to write it and talks a bit about the challenge she faced in efficiently categorizing so many intersectional identities when it came to the 25 people she interviewed for the book.Pre-order Bärí's book on Amazon.Connect with Bärí on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. Check out her personal website by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? This is Zach with Living Corporate, and, you know, you know what we do, right? It's a Tuesday. Hopefully you're bunkered in somewhere, not panicked--what's the word? Oh, using an abundance of caution and, you know, keeping away from folks that don't wash they hands. You already--okay, anyway, we're not gonna talk about that. The point is you're taking care of yourself. Maybe you're listening to some smooth jazz and you realize, "Oh, snap, I need to listen to the Living Corporate podcast," and here we are, so what's up? You know that we are centereing black and brown voices at work, and we do that by having authentic conversations with folks across a wide array of industries, okay? I'm talking about energy to transportation to telecommunications. I'm talking about lawyers and doctors and professors and, shoot, hourly employees, activists, influencers. I mean, anybody really, as long as they're willing and ready to really talk about the folks that are most impacted, most marginalized, in this world that we live in, and today is no different. We have Bärí Williams on the show. Bärí Williams, you know, she's a lot of different things to a lot of different people. You know, for me to try to, you know, wrap that up in a quick little intro would be inappropriate, so we're gonna get to know Bärí in this conversation and talk a little bit about what she has going on, and we hope you enjoy it. And with that being said, Bärí, what's up? Bärí: How are you doing?Zach: I'm doing really good, I'm doing really good. I know we were talking off-mic about, you know, staying rona free. Bärí: Man... that rona.Zach: That rona. [both laugh] It's not playing doe. They said Chuck got the rona?Bärí: Yeah. Yeah.Zach: Chuck got that rona... When Tom Hanks--Bärí: Tom Hanks got the rona.Zach: When Tom Hanks--when Tom Ladarius Hanks got the rona I said, "Okay, we need to slow down."Bärí: Fire yourself. [both laugh] Tom Ladarius. But also yes, because he's from Oakland.Zach: He's from Oakland. And this is the thing, when he called [?] I said, "Oh, okay."Bärí: Oh, no. So here's the thing. The funny part about that is Tom Hanks was in my uncle's graduating class, in the same high school and all that. So that's a real thing. Like, Tom Hanks knew about [?].Zach: Man. Well, see, I knew--so, you know, the apple don't fall far from the tree.Bärí: That doesn't explain Chet Hanks though.Zach: We not gonna talk about Chet? [laughs]Bärí: I don't have anything for Chet.Zach: Man. Boy, that blackness went away when he realized his parents was sick doe.Bärí: Right. That patois was gone.Zach: That patois was--I didn't hear--no patois ting--[laughs]Bärí: "Mom and Dad are sick, guys. Thanks for your prayers."Zach: Snap. He was tatted up doe. But yeah, [laughs]--Bärí: He tried.Zach: He did, he did. But yeah, okay, okay, okay. Look, there's a variety of things we could talk about, right? Like, a lot of stuff is going on. This is not typically a current events podcast. I do want to talk a little bit about the book that you have.Bärí: Yeah, yeah. Out March 31st. Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Get Your Conversations Poppin'. I interviewed 25 different people, and what was super interesting about it was it was 25 people that I picked, and I got probably five or six interviews deep and I told the editor, "Hey, I know we want to segment these into five different categories, but all of these people are intersectional. So you can figure out where you want to put 'em. I'm not gonna make that determination." Because who am I to say that somebody being LGBTQ and Christian outweighs, you know, maybe how they're genderfluid or express themselves? I'm not gonna--Zach: Yeah, you're not gonna rank that.Bärí: Yeah, or how when I talk to two black women in the spirits industry I'm not gonna rank whether they feel that they're black first or a woman first. "So you put them where you want them, but here they are."Zach: You're absolutely right. I mean, I think when you force--I think about, like, Feminista Jones. Like, she talks about this from time to time. It's, like, this idea that you make black women choose between their femininity, their womanhood or their blackness, and, like, that's violence, right? Like, you need to let people be all of who they are.Bärí: I totally agree. I would say what's hard for me with that though is that I can only speak for my experience, but I have always been black first, and the reason being is that all of the experiences in my life would not be different if I were still black and a man, and that's, like, wow.Zach: Let's talk about that. Break down that down a little bit for me.Bärí: Child, we can talk about it. My mama literally just texted me and said "I feel asleep reading your book. This is really good. I didn't know people were out here living like this." [both laugh] But yeah, I feel like--and I've been told this before, and it probably isn't a secret to you. I can have a bit of a dominant personality. [laughs] And that is--but I feel like that is not abnormal for black women. Period. Zach: It's not. My mom is like that.Bärí: Exactly, and my mom was like that, and my son's mom is like that. Which means me. [both laugh] So... I mean, if you're used to it you know how to deal with it, but the harder part, at least for me, is working within that framework in a corporate environment. What does that mean, to be a strong black woman in a white, predominantly male, sort of passive aggressive environment? And the answer is I still don't know, 'cause they say they want one thing, and then when they get it they're like, "Ooh... this is a little-- This is more than I thought."Zach: Well, I think a lot of folks do say that they want certain things, but it's like--you know, when you finally experience this, particularly when it comes to--you know, people say they want diversity, they want inclusion, and it's like, "Yeah, but until you're--"Bärí: Until it makes you uncomfortable.Zach: "You're in a room and you're doing a presentation and then three people who don't look like you raise their hand asking you a bunch of questions that you weren't prepared for. Then all of a sudden you ain't really like that," right?Bärí: Yeah, that's exactly it. And, like, I touch on that a lot in the book. So, in the book, it's segmented into five different categories. So it's Race, Gender, Age and Ability, Religion and Culture, and LGBTQ. And when I say that there were only--I interviewed 25 people. I actually interviewed more than 25 and let the editor decide what she thought--the editor was also a black woman, which was, like, fantastic. So, like, she got me, and that's very rare, particularly in publishing. And she read it and she was like, "Yeah, these are really, really good, and this is hard to figure out where to put folks," because you have people who are, you know, dealing with issues around culture and race, and then you have issues dealing with, you know, sexuality and race, and then you have people dealing with gender and religion, and so yeah, where do you put them? So out of the 25 people that we ended up selecting, in the end, only two sit cleanly in one bucket, and what was interesting about that is they were both Asian men. Zach: Okay, yeah. Bärí: Everyone else, you know, fit into multiple categories, and that's one thing we talk about is, like, how do you navigate being in multiple categories and fitting into a predominantly straight white male able-bodied world?Zach: And, you know, I think also, like, it pushes up against this narrative of, or just this binary mindset that we have about everything, right? You're either this or you're that or it's this or it's that, and it's like, that's just not the way the world works, and, like, people are really complex, but I think, like, part of, like, this decentering of whiteness, particularly white male straight able-bodiedness, is forcing people to realize that not only--like, these concepts are not new. It's just that certain things are happening now where you can't ignore those non-white male groups anymore.Bärí: Yeah, and I think people are very, very uncomfortable with that, very, and so part of it is in the book there are takeaways from each chapter. There are key--it starts with definitions in terms of, like, what are some things you're gonna see in here that people have said in their interviews that's gonna be prevalent and super relevant? Like white saviors, okay? And I didn't feel afraid to go there. Like, I know some people are gonna be like, "Ooh, white savior? So you're insulting--" No, I'm not, but you also think you're wearing a cape and you can save us all, and that's now what we're asking you to do, and also, like, you need to know that you're doing this. It's white saviors, it's understanding the difference between, you know, being cis and--like, people just--just terms and things that people may not be familiar with and to get them comfortable with the idea of that terminology and then how to use it.Zach: I think that's really important too, right? So, you know, we talk about white fragility. There are different types of fragility too. Black men can exhibit a certain level of fragility. I think, like, people who are in any position of relative privilege--relative privilege, now. Relative privilege. Have a potential to exhibit fragility, and I think folks don't necessarily like being educated when they're wrong. So, like, having something, a resource... and, like, Google is free, y'all, so don't... but anyway.Bärí: Child, I tell people that all the time.Zach: [laughs] Even if, like, getting corrected in public or by another human makes you uncomfortable, I mean, you could at least--I mean, you could engage with your own fragility in prviate. But anyway, the point is, having a book--Bärí: I will tell you, my husband is a product manager for Google, and he works on the Android wearables team, so he doesn't even actually work for the search engine, but when I ask him a question and he thinks it's dumb, he'll just send me the link--I'm trying to remember the acronym, but basically the acronym stands for "Let me Google that for you." Zach: Yeah, somebody sent that to me one time and--like, but this is the thing about that... and that's cute, and that's your husband and stuff, but let me tell you something. I remember one time I was at work and I asked somebody a legitimate question--Bärí: If somebody did that to me at work though I would want to fight.Zach: I said, "Wait a second. Let me tell you what it's not gonna be. You gonna answer my question, okay?" Don't play. Don't play with me. [laughs] Bärí: Like, there is a whole song out here in the Bay that was made that's called "What You Ain't Gon' Do," so... [Zach laughs]Zach: That's 'cause if I didn't have to talk to you I wouldn't, so don't--Bärí: Go YouTube that, and you might want to make that the outro music, 'cause--[laughs] 'Cause yeah, it's fine for Jamie to do that to me, but if somebody else did that to me I would probably roll up on your desk. Zach: [laughs] "So explain this. Why did you send this?"Bärí: Right? "So let's talk, Bob. Let me tell you what you ain't gon' do."Zach: And what ain't gon' be. Okay, so no, that's--let me ask you this. So, like, what was the inspiration to write the book?Bärí: Many things. I think--and this is gonna be long-winded and, but I remember being five years old--and my mom is a retired teacher from the Oakland [Unified?] School District, and she and a couple of colleagues sat around our dining room table in our apartment and they created what ended up being the oratorical festival, which to our surprise was made into a documentary on HBO last month. And she didn't know and I didn't know, and she was like, "Oh, look at this!" And I was like, "Yeah! Also, why are you not in it?" But I let that go. I let that go. I'ma let that go and let God. [both laugh] And she actually--what's funny about it is she was like, "I don't care." Like, if somebody's talking about this and it still exists, like, that's enough. Like, that was her goal. And so I remember sitting there looking at that, and I remember participating in the first year, and I won in the first grade for, like, my category, and I was like, "Did you rig this?" And she was like, "No," but what it did was it gave me a voice, and she cultivated that throughout my entire life when I wasn't, you know, doing debate time in high school and junior UN League. Like, all of that. So I always felt like I had something to say and, you know, everything doesn't deserve a response. I mean, I'm still learning that at 40. [laughs] But she taught me, like, when something does deserve a response, make sure you have a very calculated thing to say about it, and so I started to do that, and then I decided to write, and it was writing articles and op-eds in New York Times and Fast Company and Fortune and Forbes, and it made me think, "There's a [?] there, and there are things that people are not discussing in these tech companies that I see because I'm in them, and we can't fix it if more people don't know it's a problem." So that's what led to it, but it was more than that. It was like, there are other people going through different struggles and different departments in other companies, in other industries, and what does that look like? And that's why I ended up talking to, you know, two black women in the spirits industry. The spirits industry is dominated by older white men. And these are two, you know, 30-something-year-old black women with their own spirits, and they're Christian, and so that was one of the things where I told the editor, "I don't know where you want to put them. Do you want to put them in race or gender or religion?" But yeah, they've had people ask them in their church, like, "What are you doing? This is wrong" They've had people talk to them in the spirits industry, like, "Hey, girl, do you know what you're doing?" You know, they get it on all levels, and then I was talking to [Rabya?]. She's fantastic. She's the woman who did the defense for [?] in... what is the name of the podcast? I'm blanking now. That's terrible. Serial, and she talked about being, you know, a woman, being Muslim, wearing a hijab, and people--she knows she's a good attorney, but people would want her to write the briefs and do the background work but not show up in court. Zach: It's interesting, 'cause that's the kind of stuff--there's a pattern of that, right? Of exploiting black labor or using black folks' thought capital, wringing them dry for it, only for you to then take center strage and publicity and really interface, right? like, you see it--I'm sure that you've--'cause you've [?] in tech. Like, you've been with StubHub and Facebook. Like, you've been all over the place, right? Like, you've seen where, like, a lot of times black folks will come from, like, these HBCUs or, like, with these engineering degrees and then, like, work in the back in security. Security, y'all, is not--like, not tech security. Securing the building. Anyway. [?, both laugh]Bärí: I will tell you the funniest thing to me when I got to Facebook was it was 2014--Facebook started in 2004, so it was 10 years afterward. I was the first black woman in legal. There weren't black people in legal, so I was the first black person and the first black woman. There were no AKAs at all in the company, so I was the first AKA in the company. They had no Links in the company. I was the first Link in the company. Like, what are you doing? Like, if you want a highly qualified workforce, Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated will get that done for you, The Links, Incorporated will get that done for you. And there were only, like, three Deltas in the entire company.Zach: Shout-out to my sorority sisters. What's up, y'all? You know, and my mom is also an AKA, but you're really repping. Like, you really got on this podcast and, like, inserted that plug. I respect that. I like that a lot. Bärí: You know, plug plug plug, but that's the thing that I wanted people to understand too was, like, if you want a highly qualified workforce--and yes, they may not have direct, on-point experience, but we all have analogous experience from doing this non-profit work, and that's the thing that people discount or don't see. So, like, you want to hire Brad in accounting and he, like, did an internship for two months at his dad's firm. Like, what do you value?Zach: Right? Well, when you start holding them accountable--so when you hold them accountable to the standards that they give you, right? So if you say, well, "You know, you don't really have X, Y and Z. Show me somebody else who does have X, Y and Z experience." Bärí: Yeah, show me what's comparable. Zach: Yeah, and they pull 'em up and it's like, "Yo, this person was... he was, like, a DJ, or he worked at a GNC. Like, what are you talking about?" And so then things just crumble because it's like, "This is not about this." Like, you're creating rules--Bärí: Yeah. Like, that's not really what you want, and that's fine, but, like, let's call a thing a thing.Zach: I think, again, it just fits the meta narrative of white people, like, creating new rules for marginalized people. Bärí: Well, it's something that I actually told a long bost and said, like, every time I hit the benchmark, you move the goal posts. Are you aware of that? And he was like, "What are you saying?" And I said, "What I'm saying is what I said." Zach: I just said it, first of all.Bärí: Yeah. Like, child, when I tell--and that's the thing, like, my mom should've never told me I should advocate, because I literally said, I was like, "No. I hit this benchmark, and you told me if I did this it would be that. If I did X, it would be Y, but now you're saying, "Hm, but in order to get to Y you really need to do--" And I was like, "Nah, bruh. You said this, and I have it in writing." And I did that. So now what are we doing? And he was like, "Why are you so angry?"Zach: What do you mean?Bärí: I was like, "What do you mean? I'm not angry. I'm just telling you this is what you said and now you're going back on it," and he's like, "But you're angry," and I said, "I'm not angry. I'm just holding you accountable, and maybe you're not used to that, but that's also not my job. Like, that, you should go home and talk to your mom or your wife about that."Zach: But you know what though? Like, just as a thought exercise, let's just say I am angry. Okay. Bärí: Then what?Zach: Then what? I am angry, because you said you were gonna do something and you didn't, or you said it was gonna be one way and it isn't, or I have written documentation and you're gaslighting me by acting like this isn't real. So yeah, maybe I am angry. Does that make my point less valid?Bärí: And it doesn't. Like, these are stories that people go through in the book about how people gaslight them in the same way, whether it's about them being a woman or about them being black or about them being LGBTQ. There is such a powerful story in there from a woman who's Asian who talks about, like, how her family essentialy made her feel like she had to whitewash herself to be successful, and then when she got to college it was like, "I don't know how to relate to Asian people now." And then when she got in the workplace she's like, "Now I have to relate to both, and how does that work?" I mean, that's real. Like, you know, how you're socialized is how you end up projecting yourself to the world.Zach: That's right, unknowingly or unknowingly, and that's the scary part, right? Like, you end up doing this thing, like, where you're raised. You're just growing up. Like, you're raised a certain way, and then you hit the real world and you realize like, "Dang, I have a lot of internalized depression and, like, I didn't even know that." Bärí: Mm-hmm, and that is--that honestly is one of the--it's funny, 'cause my son, he's now 9-and-a-half, but when I had to finish this book towards the middle of October, I was so tired. When I tell you, child, on the last day before I had to hit the bit I was like, "Ugh." I stopped to watch, like, a Real Housewives marathon, and he came to me. He was like, "What are you doing?" And I was like, "Excuse you?" And he said, "Mommy, what are you doing?" And I said, "I'm taking a break." And he's like, "Are you done yet?" And I said, "Do you understand what break means?" And he was like, "Well, you let me take a break, but you give me a time. Like, you've been watching this for, like, three hours. Have you hit Send?" And I was like, "No, I haven't," and he's like, "Okay, so then you get one more hour and then you need to finish." But to me, what I took that as was, like, he wasn't being defiant, he was actually imposing the rules that I put on him, which I was like, "Oh, so my parenting isn't totally failing."Zach: No, he has internalized that level of accountability and he is giving you that same energy back.Bärí: Yeah, but the same energy I had to give him was, like--I listen to so many stories about, you know, marginalized communities, interviewing these folks, particularly black men and their experiences, and you don't get to mess up, and I've told him that, and so he's like, "Why are you sitting here watching a Real Housewives marathon for three hours? You haven't pressed Send. Like, girl, get it done." And I was like, "Okay, yeah. You're right." But it's that same energy. Like, you have to be twice as good to get half as far, and that story was all of these people in the book, which was crazy, because it cuts across everything. It cuts across disability. It cuts across sexuality. It's like you have to make up for who you are by doing more work.Zach: You know, I think about a conversation we just had with Ruchika Tulshyan, and we were talking about how black men are often times left ot of the corporate D&I initiatives, right? So now, sometimes people think they're being really radical when they talk about "the angry black man." It's like, okay, I get it. That is a thing, and that's real, but, like, just the larger conversation about how black men are treated, and like you said, we don't have opportunities to mess up, and the same thing could be said for black women of course, for sure. It's just this idea of labor and, like, having to do more just to--Bärí: And you're not getting farther. It's just--Zach: Oh, my gosh. Thank you. It's like, "I'm not doing more to get further or to get farther ahead. I'm doing more just to be equal. I'm doing more just to receive what I've earned," right?Bärí: I can tell you, my husband, he interviewed at a former employer of mine. My husband is 6'6" and, like, 235 pounds on a good day.Zach: Oh, he's lean lean.Bärí: Eh... I said on a good day. [laughs] But the way that he's built though is, like, very Michael Phelps. So he's broad. So he looks bigger than he is, and the feedback that they had is--and also, because of his size and because he is black, he has been socialized--and also he's light as hell. Like, I've had people ask me multiple times, "Oh, so your husband's biracial?" No, he isn't, but people just assume that he is. And so based off of his profile, he's very light-skinned, he's 6'6", he's built like a swimmer, and people--so he has been socially conditioned to basically... I don't want to say tamp down who he would be, but he's more docile. Super reserved, which is why our dynamic works, because I'll be, like, the person in your face, and he'll--Zach: Yeah, it's tough to be big when--yeah, I've learned that in a variety of different ways, but yeah. I keep that--I would say I'm probably more like you, Bärí. I'm like, "Ayo," but I'm like, 6'2", like, 280, so I'm like, a big dude. [laughs]Bärí: And you know that scares people.Zach: And I'm not that--and I'm lighter-skinned, but I'm not, like, light-skinned, right? So it's like, you know.Bärí: And that is so scary for me with our son, because our son is--he is darker than I am, and I'm brown-skinned, and he's already 5 feet and he's 9. Zach: Yeah, he's gonna be a big boy.Bärí: Yeah, he will be. And I believe he'll be taller than his dad, and even if he isn't, it's like, if you are 6'6" and you're a brown-skinned boy and you're in Oakland, I have to keep you safe. And so everything I do is about "How do we keep you safe?" And that sucks, 'cause, like, I wish you could just be free, but--Zach: And it's not... and not even to be a super downer, but I say this as someone who, shoot, maybe by the time of this podcast my daughter's gonna be here, but, like, I think about having black kids in this world and, like, there's the physical safety, but then there's a certain level of, like, psychological safety that you really can't protect them from, and, like, there's certain things they're gonna just have to--again, I'm not trying to be fatalist or, like, super down or whatever, but they just have to go. They're just going to have to experience. And it's, like, the feeling of being isolated or alone or otherized or not quite fitting in spaces. Like, that's a thing, right? That's a thing, and somebody that I really admire--like, there are a bunch of folks I really admire, but I think about, like, Bomani Jones, right? Like, he's somebody I see, like, in these spaces, and he never, like--on his platforms, like, ever talks about being one of the onlys or whatever. And some people are just built like that. He's just like, "I don't really whatever." He doesn't come across, like, really vulnerable in that way, and I don't know--and this is not about Bo specifically, but I think about, like, other black men in media or, like, in these really big profile spaces, and I wonder, like, to be successful in these hyper-white spaces, do you just have to have, like, a certain level of just, like armor, and just almost be really calloused?Bärí: I think you do. That's one of the things also that I learned from doing interviews in the book, and that's not even unique to us. Like, the folks who are dealing with LGBTQ gender issues and gender expression, they had to deal with that in terms of, like, people questioning them and, like, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? Like, all of that stuff. And full discretion, like, I know Bo. Like, Bo and I are cool, and we've had that conversation, and part of it is like--to your point, it's not intentional. He doesn't mean to not say that. He just is like, "I am who I am, and you're gonna take it or you're not." And honestly, I've talked to him and have said, like, I want that energy for my son. I don't want him to feel like you have to have the burden of all black people ever on your back. Like, [?] does Bo, but he still reps us, and that's what I want, and that's what I want. Even, like, that I see with my husband. It's funny because I look at him--we're very, very different. He has had probably every advantage you can have in life. Like, he has gone to private school since he was born until he graduated. Like, he literally went to private pre-school, then he went to a private elementary school, private high school, he went to Harvard and then he went to Stanford, and I was like, "Bruh. You do not know, like, what it's like to live in, like, a real dorm." But he still came to--like, and he's from here too. He's from Oakland and came back and, like, tried to get in the valley and couldn't beat down the door. [Zach: Hm.] Right. And this is what everybody says that they want, right? These credentials. [Zach: Yeah, you know, he's checked every box.] And also, this is a light-skinned dude, right? So he's less-threatening. Zach: Right, and I'm sure he talks very proper. He enunciates his words well.Bärí: Child, I call him MC Carlton.Zach: So, like, literally his only knock is that he's black, and light black at that. Diet. [laughs]Bärí: Well, not even that. Also that was one of the things--so when I said my former... I had an employer who interviewed him. He got to the end of the round, and they decided that they didn't want him. They cut him. Like, they were hiring between him and one other person. They cut him because they said, "Oh, he didn't show enough passion. He wasn't willing to bang on tables." So when they gave me that--no, no, no, when they gave ME that feedback, I said, "Okay, so let's stop and envision this. Do you want a 6'6" 235-pound black man banging on tables? You're gonna be comfortable with that?" [Zach: And they said what?] They were like, "Well, what are you implying?" And I said, "I said what I said."Zach: Yeah, don't play with me. I'm not implying anything.Bärí: I said what I said. I didn't imply anything, I just said what I said. So if you saw that, you would feel safe? You would be cool? Zach: I mean, real talk. Would you? Answer the question.Bärí: They were like, "I mean, he just didn't show passion," and I was like, "That's not what I asked. What I asked was that if you saw a 6'6" bald black man banging a table to motivate engineers, you're cool with that?" And nobody could answer it definitively, and I was like, "And that's why you didn't hire him, so thank you, and I'ma go catch the shuttle." Like, I'm not gonna participate in this. This is bull. Zach: Yeah, this is ridiculous. It's super ridiculous.Bärí: 'Cause he's super reserved, and he's super reserved because he knows that he is a large black man and he can't do that. Zach: I remember I applied to--this is when I was first getting into consulting and it was between a few different firms, and one of the firms--and they were all, like, Big 4, right? So one of the firms I applied to, I went through the process and they said, "Oh, he was too passionate. He was too excited about the job. He smiled too much." So I'm just laughing at you, laughing at this situation, because it's like, okay, so you can't win for losing, right? I literally was the one smiling talking about how excited I was, and they said, "Well, he looked like he knew what he was doing, but he just seemed a little too smiley, a little too excited. He was a little too passionate for us." Bärí: But if he had been extra excited y'all would have been like, "Oh, my god. The black guy scared me because he's so big." [Zach: Exactly. [laughs]] And what I hate about this is, like, having to teach my son these rules of the road, because it's different in certain ways. He has my complex--actually he's darker than my complexion and he has his daddy's stature, and so you're gonna be extra targeted because you are a super brown boy and you're gonna be very tall, so you have to be on your P's and Q's at all times. Zach: Yeah, you're not wrong.Bärí: And he's so mad, because he does Kumon in addition to his regular schoolwork, and he's like, "Ugh, Mommy, I'm tired all the time," and I was like, "What do you think my life is? What do you think your daddy's life is? What do you think brown people's life is? Like, that's what it is, and like, I hate to tell you that, but you have to do more and do it faster and do it better, and you're gonna have to do it even faster and even better than your dad, because your dad gets some sort of benefit from having been, you know, a Harvard legacy, and he's light-skinned. Like, when you're light-skinned--light-skinnned [?] go farther, I'm sorry. It's true.Zach: We have yet to talk about colorism on the podcast, like, explicitly, but we need to talk about it because--Bärí: Let's talk about it. We can do it right now. [both laugh]Zach: I want to respect your time 'cause we went over, but nah, it's a global phenomenon, right? And I think, like, it goes beyond just, like, the African diaspora.Bärí: That's true. That's so true for our Indian comrades. That is very true for our Latinx comrades. Like, that's just the truth.Zach: I was in the HEB. HEB, for the folks who are not in Houston, is a huge grocer. So I was in HEB and I was getting some different, like, sauces and stuff, and I was in, like, the cultural food aisle and walked right on by some lightening cream. You know what I mean? So it's super common, and I think, like, even when you look at, like, these corporatized D&I groups, the Latinx folks are typically European--like, white-presenting, you know what I mean? Like, they're not, like--you don't see a lot of... again, it's common, but because it's so pervasive and--I don't want to say subtle, 'cause it's not subtle if you're paying attention, but it's just common, right? Like, the lighter-skinned people... it's hard to be dark and in power, you know? Bärí: Yeah, and that is for me just a personal thing that I want my son to embrace, and the reason being is, like, you know, everybody--my mom is light-skinned, and my dad was not, and they got divorced when I was three, so I don't even remember--like, I have no memory of living with them together, and so it was really my mom and her family, and everybody in her family is light-skinned and I'm the only brown person, and I was like, "What's going on here?" Yeah. But what's interesting here is my husband is light-skinned and I'm brown. Our daughter is lighter than my husband and our son is darker than me, so it's like... they don't match at all. [laughs] Zach: I love that y'all have, like, a whole kaleidoscope going though. Bärí: We do, and we actually have shirts. I have a whole shirt. Like, I need to send you one. It's real--it's ghetto. [laughs] It's a unicorn throwing money [?], and there are different shades of the unicorn, and I picked the different shades off the people in our family. So yeah, but I mean, like, get this money. Do this work. You can do it whatever shade you are. That's my point. But for him, I want him to understand there's gonna be different restrictions for you, because you're likely to walk out of here one day when you're sixteen and you're gonna be 6'6" and you're gonna be super brown, and you're really fine, and people need, you need, to be aware of the danger. And then opposite is like, "Your sister is light-skinned. She has very loose, curly hair, and so people are gonna treat her in a completely different manner and think she's fine even though she may not be, and--" Not that I'm saying she's not cute, she is, but I'm like, "You know, people--" Zach: Yeah, there's biases that come with being [?]. Yeah, there's a certain aesthetic that she could fit into that then makes it easier.Bärí: And she does, and I want to make sure that she doesn't buy into that and, you know, that's what we're dealing with her, and that's what I deal with in the book, like, how do you handle this? You have people in multiple categories. What are the proper terms? What are the issues that are around them? How do you deal with it? Like, even something as simple as the fact that I literally have never had braids or crochets or anything in my entire life, and I decided to get it last summer because I was tired of doing my hair and then my daughter's hair. And my daughter has a looser curl than I do, but her hair is thick. Like, I'm not spending three hours on a Sunday doing this, so I took her to the salon so that they could do it, and then I started getting crochets, but now she's like, "I want to go to the salon!" So now it's like, okay, now we have to reset in terms of privilege, right? Because everybody doesn't get to go to the salon. Like, my momma did my hair until I was 13, so holla at Grandma. [both laugh]Zach: So let's get back to this book, right? It's coming out March 31st. Eye-opening interviews. The goal is to help jumpstart conversations about identity, privilege and bias, y'all. The book is called Diversity in the Workplace. Listen, y'all, make sure you check it out. Right now, maybe because of that rona we might be having these conversations on Zoom or Skype. I don't--Bärí: Now, I think you're gonna be quarantined 'cause of that rona anyway, so you might as well read this while--Zach: You definitely should. You know what, why don't you challenge yourself?Bärí: And there's an audiobook version too if you don't even want to read it. Somebody can just read it to you. Zach: Come on, now. Like, challenge yourself to read the group, and then that way when you go back to work--Lord say the same, the rona won't be here forever, okay? So you eventually will have to go see people, right?Bärí: I mean, the rona won't. It will be replaced by something else.Zach: Oh, goodness. You're right though.Bärí: I mean... it's Trump, so...Zach: Yeah, that's true. [laughs] Bärí: Something else might kill us in the meantime, I don't know.Zach: Who knows? I don't know. They said they got all these locusts over in Africa. There's, like, hundreds of billions of them over there. I don't know.Bärí: I saw that too, and I was like, "What disease are they carrying?"Zach: Listen. Bärí: Okay, I'ma let that go. Zach: Shutter the thought. [laughs] So look, y'all, this has been Living Corporate. We do this, right? We have conversations. We're really excited and we're thankful--you know, all jokes aside, please make sure you're washing your hands, okay? We have information from the CDC in the show notes. You know, hopefully you're washing your hands as you listen to this podcast. Like, wash your hands, okay? Soap is important also. Now--Bärí: Very. Water is not--Zach: Water is not soap. I want to--hold on. Sound Man, put that little record scratch in here. [record scratch] Water is not soap, okay? So you want to use some--you know, use the hard, industrial stuff. Use that Irish Spring if you need to. I personally use [?] because I am bougie, but you can use--Bärí: I use Olay, but, you know, whatever.Zach: Use something that is frankly a little abrasive, okay? Get that first, like, half-layer off your skin. Like, wash your hands, y'all. And then, you know, just take care of yourself, you know? Fist bumps and head nods only. You know, this would actually be a good opportunity for allyship and learning.Bärí: Well, here's the thing. So even with the fist bumps... so with the social distancing blah-blah-blah, it's supposed to be six feet. If you bump into someone, no, you're not within the six feet.Zach: You know what, you're right, no fist bumps. So this would be a good time actually for those--Bärí: Head nod at people and wave.Zach: So we all know how to do a head nod, but this may be the time for my less-melanated folks, my aspiring allies, to learn how to effectively head nod. Don't throw your neck out of your body when you do it. Bärí: Oh, I didn't know that was a thing.Zach: Just nodding too hard, right? Like, the head nod is supposed to be subtle, nuanced. Right? Like, maybe it's a cultural thing. I feel like in the South, like, our head nod is different, and I definitely believe, between the various melanin levels, head nods can be various levels of aggression. That's all. That's all I mean. Maybe a little salute also, with two fingers at the head. Just "Hello, I see you over there." But just be careful. Take care of yourselves, and we'll get through this together. In the meantime, make sure y'all check out the links in the show notes as well for Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Jumpstart Conversations about Identity, Privilege and Bias written by Bärí A. Williams. Until next time, y'all, this has been Zach. Peace.

In this bonus episode, Zach chats with Amanda Edwards, a Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate, about her journey in electoral politics and the importance of voting ahead of Super Tuesday.Connect with Amanda on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, and check out her website by clicking here.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Look, it's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, I know. It's a Monday. You're like, "Whoa, why are you dropping content on a Monday? The world is shifting! Why is reality as I know it splitting in half?!" No, you're probably not doing any of that. You're probably just like, "Yo, okay. Another podcast, okay." And that's what it is. It's, like, a bonus pod. Look, y'all. Remember when we had Royce West a couple--you know, it was, like, a week or two ago? A little bit ago. The point is, we had Senator Royce West on, Texas State Senator Royce West--what's up, respect to the man--to talk a little bit about voting and the importance of voting. Today is the day before Super Tuesday, right? Like, Tuesday, that's the day you vote for the person that you want to continue forward in the respective race, whether it be presidential or senatorial, and we have Amanda Edwards on. Amanda Edwards is someone who is running for U.S. Senate. She is a native Texan and former Houston City Council member who represented 2.3 million constituents, and she actually left that position to run for U.S. Senate. A pretty crowded race. We're talking a little bit about just her background and the importance of voting as well as really why we should vote. And you'll hear me say it in the podcast, y'all. Like, Living Corporate is about amplifying and centering black and brown experiences at work. I believe a way--not the only way, but a way to do that for yourself civically is by voting. And I recognize there are different positions, like going full dissident. We had Howard Bryant on the show, and he talked about the idea of Colin Kaepernick not voting, because he's like, "Look, if I believe that the system is inherently broken and I can't vote my way out of oppression, then why should I vote?" But, you know, there are different points of opinion on that. I do believe we have the right to vote. People are actively looking to take away our ability to vote, questioning our very right to be here. I believe a great way to just say that we matter is by voting. So make sure y'all check out this episode. Nothing changes for the rest of the week. We've got more content for your head top starting tomorrow and then Thursday and then Saturday, and then the marathon continues. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.Zach: Amanda Edwards, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Amanda: I'm great. Thank you so much for having me on this morning.Zach: It's not a problem. Now, look, just to start, many people are saying that, you know, Texas is really truly the battleground state. So goes Texas, so goes the nation regarding tilting red or blue. So there have been, you know, accelerated attempts to speed that up. We've had Beto and Wendy's campaigns being notable in that regard. So with that let me ask you, do you think Texas is ready? And if so, what makes you the right choice to get us there?Amanda: Absolutely I believe Texas is in fact ready in 2020, and the question remains is will the Democrats put up the right candidate who will be able to unseat John Cornyn. It is not a far-gone conclusion that it will inevitably happen. It will happen if we put forward the correct candidate, and that is someone who can build upon the strengths of Beto's election. So when we looked at Beto's 2018 run, in a time where nobody thought it would be possible to flip the state of Texas, Beto came within 215,000 votes of doing so, and he did so in large part based on the strength of getting persuadable voters out to vote for him. In other words, people who were independent voters or people who were in suburbs or people who were in non-traditional markets, like smaller markets that typically don't vote heavily Democratically, those are areas and spaces and places in which he had tremendous success in terms of getting the vote out. Where there were still some opportunities left on the table happened to be--when you look closely at the numbers, you saw that communities of color, they registered in high numbers, but they didn't turn back out and vote in high numbers. There were less than 50% of the registered numbers. People under the age of 35 likewise had high levels of registration but did not turn out to vote in those same high levels. They were under 50% of their registered numbers. So what if you had a candidate who could, by virtue of her politics, allow her to galvanize those persuadable voters yet again, but in addition to that be able to build upon Beto's run and actually also bring in those communities of color that had registered but did not actually vote, bring them into the fold as well as those under the age of 35 who had this similar situation arise with registration versus actual turnout. If you can build all three of those coalitions, you will actually the votes necessary in order not just to come close but to actually beat John Cornyn and to make history in Texas, and that is what we're planning to do after getting out of this Democratic primary, which is in fact a very crowded field, but I think a very important testament to the significance of the time that we're living in. 'Cause it used to be the case where you couldn't get anybody to run in these primary elections because of how difficult the feat was considered to be. Now of course, people have internalized that Texas is in fact winnable now, and in fact, that's why a number of us are running in this race. I for one left my city council at-large state--I was representing about 2.3 million Texans--to pursue this because I know how significant and important it is that we not just come close but that we actually can win, and the only way to do that is by galvanizing those coalitions that I mentioned to you.Zach: So what have been some of the greatest, you know, advantages and biggest challenges in not only being young and being black and being a woman, but being a young black woman in this race?Amanada: Well, the first thing you always have to do is your homework, right? And we know that this is a change election, meaning there's gonna be a lot of non-traditional voters turning out to vote, and so you can as a result--I mean, just to [?] small statistic, since 2016 for example--and there's been well over 2.6 newly registered voters in Texas. Of that number, over 1.6 million of them are people of color and/or under the age of 25 years old. And so if you look at that or you think about that statistic, the electorate is changing. So someone who's younger, someone who is a person of color, is actually consistent with the wave of change that we're seeing in Texas as we speak. So these are not, you know, things that many people from the outside looking in might view to be challenges that I face or obstacles I see as strengths. And so we have a huge opportunity in our hands, putting in a candidate that looks and sounds and is about change. Also a candidate who has a track record for such. I think it's important when you have someone--when you talk to some of these communities that stayed at home last election cycle. Let's take some of the communities of color, for example. Back in '17 when Harvey struck my community, there was 51 inches of rainfall that fell across our community. Billions of dollars in damage, loss of life, loss of property, you name it. Devastation across a broad spectrum, and I got a phone call to go check on some of my low-income seniors. I said, "No problem," and I went, and I just went to their houses impromptu, and I learned they weren't removing the walls from their homes. And of course they had been soiled by the flood water, and that will result in mold setting in if you don't remove those walls. So I mobilized hundreds of volunteers. We went out and started going door to door. Well, the first question I was asked by many homes was "Oh, are you up for re-election?" And they asked it very innocently, but the question is an illustration of a much broader systemic problem in which people are only accustomed to seeing their elected officials when it's time for us to get a vote, and we've got to make it more than just about electoral politics and voting. We've got to make it about depositing in people's lives, and I think that's how you bridge that disconnect with a lot of these communities of color who are used to being exploited around election time only to see that the promises are never delivered, and we've got to have a messenger, which would be me, who can demonstrate when they ask "Well, why should I believe you that it will be different? Because I've heard this before," I can say it's been different for the communities that I've represented, and that's gonna be huge in bridging the disconnect. So again, another strength out of what some could perceive to be a disadvantage. I see it as a strength.Zach: I love it. So, you know, it's easy I think--and let's talk a little bit about, like, the presidential race as well, because it's Monday, the day before Super Tuesday, y'all. Y'all get out there and let's get to voting. Let's go. Let's move. But it's easy, right, for black and brown folks, I think, to look at the current slate of candidates and see that the Democratic Party does not really prioritize the voice and representation, like, of us, and with that in mind, I'm curious, why do you think it's important for that same group to vote in 2020 if the alternative could be just another candidate that will ultimately ignore them?Amanda: I think that's what my campaign is all about, not just electing--well, first I need you to elect me. [laughs] But that's just one step. The second is something that I've embarked upon as a local elected official, which has been about empowering people and to also hold their leadership accountable for the things that come out of [our?] mouth. So it's not good enough to see me in the campaign cycle and let me go away and not come back until the next campaign cycle, because how do you get what you deserve in your community unless you hold me accountable? We have to have an open line of communication. This open line can be state-wide. It relates to not just being responsive to constituent requests but being present in communities, hosting a town hall. When I come to you, you should be having the report card out. "Well, where are you with this? We talked about this. What's the timing on this?" Or not even a report card. I should just proactively share with you where we are with that. That's being effective as a leader in delivering results. Before I got into politics, I will tell you, I was a [?] lawyer. I was a municipal finance lawyer. You don't get paid [?] 'til the deal gets closed. So in my mind I'm hard-wired to think in terms of deliverables, right? And so you have to close the deal before you get paid for it. In the world of politics, people just give speeches all the time and not see progress. In some kind of way that's doing your job, and I just don't think that the bar is high enough. I think doing your job is bringing home the things, the change you discussed on the campaign trail and not pointing fingers. What if the premium was [?]? And this also turns to the electorate, okay? Constituents have to raise the bar for themselves. It cannot be that you say "I want to send a boxer to go perform surgery." If you're asking somebody to bring home deliverables like policy changes, it's not about me beating somebody else in the public arena, in public. It's not about me getting some cable news, you know, applause for some Tweet I made. It's about going and getting those bills passed, and that's what we have to begin to focus our attention on. So often it's the case that we focus on the fight versus focus on the result, and I think there's a role to be played by the electorate to understand that. You've got to be focused on who do we think is a mover in that place and get something done there. That's what we should be rewarding, not so much who can be mean like Donald Trump or who can, you know, fight him. I mean, that's part of the equation, but that's not the exclusive element that we should be focused on. You know, and I think that gets lost, and that's a huge detail. I mean, part of the dysfunction we have in Washington, the polarization, is because we elect people to go in and be polarizing.Zach: So, you know, you mentioned Donald Trump, and it's interesting because the next thing I was gonna ask you was about millennials and Gen Z black and brown voters in this cycle keep getting told that we have to make compromises in order to beat Trump, which often means accepting candidates that have troubling racial records, right? And I don't even know why I'm saying troubling racial records. People got records out here that's showing that they're mad racist and/or--this is my show, I'ma stop trying to use all this little political language. I ain't playing with y'all. You know what I'm saying, they got some crazy stuff happening in their past, but we're challenged to vote for them anyway. So, like, should we make that trade-off? And if so, why?Amanda: I think you vote for what you want to see. I mean, some people try to--because ultimately that's what change is about. So if you see a candidate that espouses the change you want to see and enough people see it, I mean, whether you are in agreement with Bernie Sanders or not, you know, he was seemingly a long-shot early on, right? And now of course you see him gaining momentum, and it's not because people say "Oh, he's gonna be the easy one to win early on." They got behind him. They wanted to see what he was talking about. Same thing with a litany of other candidates that we've seen. Obama, you know? Obama was not the likely candidate to emerge.Zach: I remember that in high school, yeah.Amanda: He was the unlikely candidate, and people just wanted to see that change that he described so they got behind him. And we've done it for good and for bad. I mean, Donald Trump is another example. You know, my good example is Barack Obama, President Obama. My bad example is Donald Trump. But people wanted to see somebody mess up the system, you know? They wanted to see the establishment just turned on its head, and I don't know if they're all pleased with the way it was turned on its head or not, but he's had a critical mass of supporters stick with him, and you just--you know, in both Obama's example and Trump's example, neither of those were considered the likeliest candidate. So it's about seeing what you want to see. So you support who you believe can deliver the change you're looking for, and if the candidate that you see--you know, the candidate that you're being told to vote for isn't that person, then don't vote for him, 'cause you're the one who's gonna be holding the bag with the policies they promote. Zach: That's a fact though. No, that's true, and I think the reality is--I saw this somewhere on Twitter, 'cause you know, Twitter has all the quotables, but it said something like "The person who's electable is the person you vote for." Right? Like, just vote for 'em.Amanda: That's right. I love that.Zach: Okay. So in this country and in this state, public or private, the quality of your education has more to do with the value of your home and your zip code than your work ethic. So when you're in the Senate and you're asked to confirm the next secretary of education, what would you ask them to change?Amanda: Well, #1 I need a secretary of education that actually believes in public education. Can we just start there?Zach: Man. Yo, what is up with her, man?Amanda: I hate to start--Zach: Nah, let's let these shots off. No, let's go. Come on. [ratatata sfx]Amanda: It's such a fundamental [?]. If you don't believe that public education should even be there, that's probably not the person to have over the department of ed, #1. #2, I would make sure that we have strategies in place for our students to be successful no matter where they're in school. One of the things that is just--you know, you've heard about the phrase "The silent bigotry of low to no expectations," right? And for us to not have those expectations of our students and put systems in place for success, pathways for success, and not just success today. I'm talking about leading the next generation of jobs. You know, why--I do a lot of work on tech and innovation, and people always--you know, and I do a lot of work in minority communities as well, and they don't see those things as being harmonious, and I'm saying this should be something that's in all of our classrooms. We should be introducing our young people to the concept of entrepreneurship and, you know, just all of the things. We should be making those introductions. We shouldn't just be teaching for tests, okay? Because kids, that's not preparing them for life. I'm not saying you can't have a test, but we've gone crazy with it. We cannot just be there for tests and that's the measure for success. We have to do better, and we have to have a well-rounded education where people have multiple pathways for success, including vocational, but also including four-year institutions no matter where you live and how much money you make. In Texas we have seen the course challenged time and time and time and time again, our full financing structure, and that requires us to say education is a right, which we have not gone as far to say. So you're not going to see the reforms that you truly need to see, which is--you know, the connection between where you live and the quality of your education doesn't make any sense. Education is our great equalizer, yet we're perpetuating how unequal it actually is by virtue of tying it to your income--I mean, of tying it to your property tax value. This is not something that makes any sense, but we continue to perpetuate the systems because, you know, we have people in office who don't believe that public education has value. I am a product of public high school, and I will tell you, you know, it is so important that we are investing more than what we have in the past, because there's so many other challenges and conflating variables our students face. So I'm a proponent of making sure that all of our students, no matter where they go to school, can be successful. They need to see that. I like to go back to my alma mater and, you know, model the behavior. You should have expectations of going to school, and they've got to see it. They're not necessarily going to see that at home all the time, so we've got to supplement that with the support they're getting in school, but truthfully speaking, a lot of the support that I recall being in school when I was a student are no longer there 'cause they got cut. We balance our state budgets on the backs of our students all of the time, and consequently our students have fewer resources to succeed, like wrap around services, and just--I could go on and on and on and on about what needs to happen with our education system, but I think first and foremost we need somebody innovative coming to the table, bring some new ideas to the table, and I would be highly eager to see, once we get our new president in office, that we bring somebody in who can be serious about educating our youth so we'll have a prepared workforce for tomorrow.Zach: So that sets me up well for my last question before we let you go. So irrespective of who wins the election in November, the Democratic primary race has shown that there is a more progressive, ethnically diverse voting population that is [?], so what do you believe the Democratic Party at large can do to ensure that they capitalize on this ever-growing reality?Amanda: In terms of electoral politics?Zach: Yes.Amanda: I think we've got to make sure that we're putting up candidates that are receptive to the issues that these communities face, and too often I'm asked, "Oh, [?]?" And I say, "Well, I think it's additive to be honest with you." I think, you know, the black community cares about health care access and education just like anybody else would, but they also have other issues in addition that they care about. But what [?] me is when people try to reduce it down to one issue, and that's the only issue that we face. The truth is we have additional issues that we have to contend with, and we have to have a broad spectrum of answers that are responsive to the broad spectrum of media. And so we've got to have to figure out how to do that. I'd like for us to be serious about elections, more serious about how we treat our elections in general with a national holiday for Election Day. I mean, I just think it's crazy that we don't have that in our country. Obviously we know why that is not the case, but it should be, and just--you know, we have holidays for all kinds of things that don't make a lot of sense, but we don't do that for Election Day? And that's the primary part of how our democracy works? I think that's problematic. So yeah, I think we've got to really start to not view the diverse candidates that do come forward as being candidates that have challenges because they're diverse. I think they're candidates that are stronger because of being diverse candidates, 'cause that's the direction the country is headed, and we should support our candidates and support diversity within that representation, but also provide for more ways to provide clear sources of information that are truthful, you know? Like, some people pick up the League of Women Voters guide and things like that, but a lot of people don't even know where to start with this stuff.Zach: Right, you're absolutely right.Amanda: You know, and it's very overwhelming as someone who's been in government and in electoral politics. It's overwhelming for people the kind of questions I get. "How do I register? When do I register?" Why isn't there one clear depository for all the information for these things where you could just information for candidates, information for--you know, just things like that. There should be some kind of clarity provided for people to make it easier to participate.Zach: From an accessibility perspective, right?Amanda: Yeah. You're kind of on your own out there, and I just think that's not the way to make it accessible to the masses.Zach: Amanda, this has been a great interview, a great conversation. Thank you so much for having us. Y'all, it's Monday, the day before Super Tuesday. Making sure we bring y'all the stuff to make sure that y'all continue to have your voice amplified and centered, and you can't do that if--well, look, for the sake of this podcast and this conversation, I'ma say you voting is a critical way to amplify and center your voice. Let's make sure you get out there and you vote, and we'll catch y'all next time. Peace, y'all.

Zach has the pleasure of chatting with FranklinCovey's Pamela Fuller in this episode themed around the topics of engagement and inclusion. She shares with us why she thinks that we're often talking about unconscious bias rather than just bias, and she also gives us a practical example of what it means to tie inclusion to performance. Listen to the full show to hear Pamela's definition of employee engagement and a whole lot more.Connect with Pamela on LinkedIn and Twitter!Find out more about FranklinCovey via their website or socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FacebookVisit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, we're back. It's Season 3. It's 2020. You know, you're probably riding in your hover jet or, you know, petting your cloned pig. I don't know what's happening in the future, but, you know, it's 2020 is my point. It's a new year, and, you know what we do. We have authentic conversations that center underrepresented voices in the corporate space--and corporate space is just another word for saying "work," so a 9-to-5 job. So underrepresented voices at work, that's what we do. We amplify those through having authentic conversations with black and brown executives, hiring partners, entrepreneurs, creatives, activists, artists, musicians. Like, anybody, right? And we're having, like, these evergreen conversations. Like, we're taking these evergreen topics rather, but we're centering them on black and brown / underrepresented perspectives, and we have, like, really great guests. Like, Season 1 we had some really incredible guests, Season 2 we had some really awesome guests, and Season 3 is no different. We have with us today Pamela Fuller with FranklinCovey. For more than 15 years, Pamela has worked in both the public and private sector supporting clients and solving complex problems. She currently serves as FranklinCovey's Thought Leader, Inclusion and Bias as well as a Global Client Partner responsible for supporting some of the organization’s most strategic accounts. Her solutions-oriented and client-centric approach has resulted in unique solutions that exceed client expectations and achieve results. Pamela works with clients to match the right solution to organizational strategic priorities and is particularly adept at designing tailored, competency-based programs to solve her client's most pressing needs. Through this work, Pamela has designed programs that have made an impact on hundreds of thousands--yo, hundreds of thousands--of participants to include FranklinCovey’s newest offering, Unconscious Bias: Understanding Bias to Unleash Potential. Prior to her current role, Pamela served as an EEO & Diversity Analyst and Trainer where she conceived and implemented proactive diversity programs to include human capital planning, training on unconscious bias and microaggressions, and statistical workforce analysis. She also served the non-profit community for nearly a decade, executing marketing, communications, special events and fundraising strategies. She is a highly sought-after consultant--I mean, come on, after everything I read, clearly she is a highly sought-after consultant--speaker and strategist, having addressed leaders across the world on leadership topics to include unconscious bias, high potential leadership and building an inclusive and effective culture to include the United Nations System, U.S. federal government and the Fortune 500. My, goodness. I mean, come on, y'all. Like, if that doesn't get you off your seats, if that don't get you paying attention to something, I mean... [ow sfx] Goodness. Pamela, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Pamela: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I am good. I don't know if you ever get used to hearing your bio read. I think there's a humility that we're all raised up with that makes that feel so strange. So, um, anyway, I'm just thrilled to be here and engage in this conversation.Zach: Man. You know, let's just get right into it, right? Like, a critical part of any conversation is language and clear definitions. I think, like, you know, the D&I space has been existing for a while, but I feel like that we're seeing a shift in the past handful of years where, I don't know, just the intention around the work is just that, more intentional. And so before we even get into this whole conversation, like, can we get your definition of inclusion and bias?Pamela: Absolutely. I think inclusion--as I think about inclusion, I think we know we're being successful with inclusion when it is a metric of performance. If everyone in the organization feels included, valued, respected, then they are able to perform at their best, and I think that's really important, that connection to performance, because quite often people talk about diversity and inclusion around sort of a moral responsibility or it being the right thing to do, and while I firmly believe all of those things, I think that a conversation about the right thing to do is not as compelling in an organization as the impact on performance. So yes, it's the right thing to do for lots of reasons. Ultimately as a business or an organization, the reason it's most important is to ensure that we are positioning everyone to perform, to meet whatever our goals or results are for the organization, and people can't do that if they feel inhibited or encumbered or disrespected or ignored or tolerated, right? So inclusion is a sense that everyone feels they can contribute their best selves and that they desire to do so, because if I'm not included I don't even want to give you my best ideas, right? And I think bias, as we talk about bias, we define bias at FranklinCovey and in our new offering around--we define it as a preference, a preference that we might have about a person or a place or a thing, a circumstance, and the word preference I think is really important to the definition, because when we think of bias we often think of it being inherently negative. We think biases of prejudice or a stereotype, and if it's inherently negative we get a little bit defensive about it. So people bring up bias and a lot of people in organizations, particularly people who don't feel like they've been on the receiving end of bias, might get really defensive. You know, "I don't have bias," or "I don't have prejudice. I don't have stereotypes. I sort of treat everyone fairly," but if we define it as a preference we speak to what bias really is. It's a natural part of the human condition, of how the brain works, and we have preferences that on their face don't have value, but they impact our behavior, and that behavior has a result that can be negative or positive. So bias is preferences we have about kinds of things, whether your desk is messy or gender or race, you know? Bigger, heavier issues, or the sorts of qualifications people have or where they went to school, where they're from in the country, all kinds of things, and that impacts how we interact with other people, how we handle circumstances, how we make decisions, and those decisions, or that impact, again goes back to performance. So I think that these terms are really valuable when we can tie them to performance, because that's the result of inclusion and bias.Zach: No, and I'm right there with you, right? I think so many times--let me take a step back. So I think premises, discussing premises is really important. So I do believe, in my experience and also from what I've read as well as conversations that I've had with other leaders, [that] a lot of times when we talk about diversity and inclusion it's framed around the comfort of the majority, right? So, like, just now when you framed inclusion around performance, that in itself is a differentiator--this is not even an ad for FranklinCovey by the way, y'all. This is not an ad. I'm just trying to shout--but, I mean, with respect, [laughing] it's a differentiator because with the tie-in to performance there's also, like, an underlying theme of accountability, right? Like, if I'm tying something to performance, I'm tying to something tangible and measurable, that means that there is an outcome that we're looking to achieve. I think a lot of times when we talk about inclusion though specifically they are moreso tied to, like, feelings or, like you said, moral imperatives, and the reality is, like, the world operates today very exclusively. There are plenty of exclusive spaces, and there are plenty of systems that are built off of exclusivity. So I don't know if that angle of positioning as inclusion as, like, the right thing to do is going to win over the masses, because if the moral imperative was that strong and people really vibed with it, we wouldn't have all the work that we have to do. So it's interesting though, kind of on with the idea of inclusion, a popular definition of inclusion is being asked to dance at the party you were invited to, right? And people say it--I'm sure you hear it often, but people say it with such, like--I don't know, like it's just such a [swaggy?] thing to say, and I'm like, "Okay. I mean, it's cool," but can we talk a little bit about the role that power plays in inclusion? Like, do you think that you can have inclusion of underrepresented employees without granting them some authority within the organization that they operate?Pamela: Uh, no. [laughs] In short, right? But I think it sort of goes back to definition. So when we think about the moral imperative, there's a power dynamic in that as well, right? Because what we're saying if we say it's a moral imperative, we're sort of putting it in the same box as charity. Like, "This is a good will," right? "A charitable act that I will do for these underrepresented groups is to bring them into the conversation." So I think that's another reason I feel very strongly about reframing inclusion and bias around performance, because I think it's not a charity, right? There's an actual end result. There's whole populations we're leaving out of organizations, and that is detrimental to performance, because ultimately organizations cannot serve--you know, I do a lot of work in the federal space. The federal government cannot serve the American people if it's not reflective of the American people. That's a big, grandiose example, but the same is true of private sector. Your customers are reflective of a population or a demographic and you can't serve them if you don't reflect them. So I think that power is an important part of this, and another thing that we see as we work with organizations is that organizations are typically more diverse at the front line. It's difficult to get to diversity and inclusion in the senior ranks, and even as we look at the chief diversity officer or the office of diversity and inclusion or diversity, equity and inclusion, or even chief experience officer, right? I think corporations are going through a bit of a vanguard in terms of what that role is even called, but it's interesting to see where that person sits in an organization and where they report, and I think where they sit and where they report is a reflection of how strongly the organization feels about the value of diversity and inclusion efforts and their linked performance.Zach: Well, so where they sit, who they report to, and then also who they are, right? Like, who they actually choose to be in those positions.Pamela: Yeah, because I think that there is a bit of a--I don't know. There's a lot of talk about that across D&I professionals in terms of the identity of the person in that role and does it need to be someone from a marginalized group, and I also think there's a sentiment sometimes, particularly in highly technical organizations, that HR issues generally are people who are, like, not technical enough, and so there's not always a lot of respect in an organization given to the capability of that person who sits in the role, which again goes to your point about power, that if it's not a highly respected role, if it's not seen as highly valued, then the person is limited in the impact that they can make across the organization.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting because I remember a couple jobs ago I was working, and we had the black affinity group, right? And, you know, there were multiple different affinity groups, and each affinity group had a leader, and for all of the other groups, right, military, women, East Asian, LGBTQ, all the leaders were, like, senior managers or directors, right? So low- to mid-level senior leaders, but then for the African-American affinity group it was, like, an experienced hire. Like, someone who has been, you know, working for, like, four or five years. So off top you're like, "Okay, I don't--y'all don't care about this the same way that y'all care about these other spaces," you know what I mean?Pamela: Yeah, and it sort of violates best practice, right? So best practice around employee resource groups or affinity groups or business resource groups--again, sort of an evolution that organizations are going through, and each of those titles has a different contribution to make to the organization--but best practice across any of those structures is that there be executive sponsorship of the group and that the person who is the executive sponsor isn't necessarily part of the group, because there's research that shows that, when we look at diversity and inclusion efforts, if women and people of color are elevating those efforts and pushing them forward, if people in a marginalized group are pushing them forward, it can actually hurt their career over the long-term, because it seems self-serving, right? It seems like, you know, "I'm a black woman, I'm a Latino woman, and, like, we need more diversity in the senior ranks," right? [laughs] It seems like I'm saying, "Hire me," where as when a white man does that same sort of advocacy for issues of diversity and inclusion it seems benevolent, right? Because they don't actually--at least on its face, they don't have anything to gain from that advocacy. So one of the best practices for impacting any sort of whatever the structure is, affinity group, employee resource group or business resource group, is to have an executive sponsor who's not a member of the group so you sort of counteract this research, right? You have an advocate who's not part of the group and who, you know, for lots of reasons is sort of more trusted at the executive level because it doesn't seem self-serving. Zach: And to that point, I think when you talk about inclusiveness--and we've talked about, on Living Corporate, sponsorship and mentorship in the past. Like, to me, like, that's the biggest opportunity strategically, and then just organizationally, when you talk about, like, the next step when it comes to employee resource groups. Right now it's like these ERGs are spaces where others are able to kind of cluster together and either be kind of, like, other with themselves or just kind of be out of the way, but it puts responsibility on underrepresented employees. It fully charges black and brown, LGBTQ, disabled, it fully charges non-white men, non-straight, white men, to be in charge of their own inclusion efforts, right? Like, we're not really connecting the dots between the folks who actually have authority, access, and power with these underrepresented folks. I often see these groups kind of just operate autonomously, almost like they're an island in of themselves as opposed to them being connected to this larger organizational strategy. Is that something that you've seen often, or do you--like, are you seeing a shift in how these ERGs engage and work within the larger leadership structure?Pamela: I see that as well, and I think--you know, I don't see necessarily, like, a wave of engagement in the larger leadership structure. I think some organizations are just better at it than others for lots of--you know, it's either a longer-standing program or sort of the people at play or there are executives who have made it their business to be a part of these groups. I think one of the challenges with employee resource groups is the burden, as you've highlighted, sits with the population, and even the effort that they put towards it, right? Like, we are all in the workplace. We have--you know, everyone I speak to across public and private sector, you know, small, medium, large companies, multi-national companies, everyone is doing two jobs. Everyone is over-worked, and there's just not enough hours in the day. So then you look at demographics for underrepresented groups in corporate structures, and you're thinking, "Wow," and we've, got, like a handful of our high-performers putting additional effort and energy towards making these employee resource groups meaningful, which feels a bit counter-intuitive, right, when you're trying to sort of close the gap and accelerate in the leadership ranks. So I think employee resource groups need to be a part of a larger strategy, because they do serve a purpose. I mean, when I look--so in our program, and to your point not a plug, but just an example that I think--an illustration that I think might be helpful when you think about this is we do an exercise around a network audit and just sort of looking at your network and doing an audit of your personal and professional network in terms of who you choose to go to, like, when you have a problem or when you have a new project or when you're seeking coaching or mentorship about a specific issue, and when I do that activity for myself, I notice that my personal network is very reflective of me. I mean, it's, like, women of color who are college-educated, often have a higher degree, have an MBA, and are sort of in fast-paced jobs, sort of big jobs, and on paper we look very similar, and that serves a purpose. That's valuable for me for my own sense of belonging and sort of ensuring that I'm navigating things the right way and sharing my personal experience and the challenges I have that are specifically related to my role as a working mother of two brown boys in America, right? My professional network is much more diverse. There are many more men in my professional network. There are men in higher-level positions. There are also women. There's a lot more geographic diversity, because FranklinCovey is a global company and because I've worked and lived in other states outside of Washington, D.C., where I currently live--or Virginia, I should say, just outside of D.C., and so I think that--and when I look at that I ask the question, "Where do I have opportunity? Where do I have opportunity to expand my network, both for my own sense of sort of professional growth and development and belonging and inclusion as well as, you know, for the benefit of my network?" And so I think ERGs serve a purpose. Like, it's valuable for me to have a network that is reflective of me, because sometimes, you know, you don't have to explain things. You can say, like, "This happened," and people in your network who reflect you say, "Oh, I know. When that happens, this is what I've done," you know? Where as when people are different then there's a little bit more effort that you have to put in. You have to explain your perspective or explain why that might be problematic or ask the question differently. So I think they serve a purpose. It's valuable to have that network, and we see that organizations who don't have those sorts of networks really struggle to retain diverse talent and to promote diverse talent, but it can't be the only thing, right? Organizations have to have a multi-pronged strategy that doesn't put the burden only on those people to build a network for themselves. So there needs to also be some formal mentoring and coaching opportunities in place. There needs to be engagement of the majority in minority efforts. There needs to be formal leadership development opportunities and, you know, rotational assignments for people, and surveys that indicate what people's experience is, and then response to that survey data, right? Most organizations do do sort of employee engagement surveys. They don't necessarily respond to what they hear and try to bridge those gaps. So I think when ERGs are the organization's only strategy, that's a problem, but as part of a larger strategy I've seen them be really effective, 'cause there's a purpose that that serves, and it's valuable.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. I think the challenge is that for so many organizations ERGs is, like, the beginning and end of their DE&I strategy, right? Like, it's "Okay, we set these things up for y'all to be different over there. So have your happy hours, let us know what the budget it--you've got about $600 for the year--and enjoy yourself," right? [both laugh]Pamela: You can buy one bottle of wine.Zach: Get your one bottle of wine and celebrate your one promotee and enjoy, right? [laughs] But jokes aside--and that really wasn't a joke, but pessimistic commentary aside--[laughs]Pamela: [laughs] Skepticism aside.Zach: Yes, yes, yes. It's interesting because I think what that doesn't also account for is, like, the emotional labor that goes into, like, one even just being a part of an ERG, but then two working and trying to build one up, right? So like you said, we all have these full-time jobs. I'm a consultant, and so it's like, "Okay, I'm already working on the billable engagement, then I have some additional work that I'm doing to, like, sell something else," and then maybe I'm even working on a whitepaper or some research or something else, and then on top of that you want me to lead a whole ERG? Or you want me to participate in one? Like, even participating, right, I think it's really easy--and I had a conversation with some colleagues some months ago, and they were talking about "Well, we're going to judge ERG engagement by how many people show up to events," and I was trying to explain--I was like, "Well, wait a minute. That can't be your only measure for judging engagement or participation, because some people may just--honestly if you just sent out an email once a month with, like, some type of professional tip or did some type of blogging series, or--like, there are people who maybe just like to observe. They might not necessarily want to show up physically and hang around and hang out after a whole week-long of work," because even showing up in spaces where we're the majority can sometimes be performative, 'cause we don't know everybody. Like, "I don't know you." Like, yes, you and I both might be black, but we're not a monolith. Like, I still need to build up trust, and that in itself can be an emotional exercise. So how do we--you know, how do we account for the labor that's involved in just being present in these spaces, right? I'm already exhausted from being present everywhere else, so now I'm going to be present here? This is going to be positive, but we need to make sure that we're accounting for that effort, because it is an effort. It's not just automatic. I think it's really easy, outside looking in, just to think that everybody wants to just pop up to everything or do a happy hour or do insert-whatever-activity it is when it's like, "Man, you know, honestly I would just benefit from somebody just sending me a note," or "I would just benefit from a phone call or just listening on a conference call or," like, again, reading a newsletter. I don't necessarily know if I need to, like, be physically present somewhere on top of all of the things that I'm doing for me, right? Again, I'm not dismissing the reality that these events are great, they can be, but everybody's different and, you know, I've yet to talk to one black person, black or brown person at work, who hasn't, like, significantly dealt with some B.S. at their job that they're actively trying to manage through and smile through, so, like, when you think about that kind of stuff, and then now I gotta kind of do this other thing, it can just kind of be a bit much, you know what I mean?Pamela: Yeah, I agree. And I think personality-wise--so it's hard because, you know, understanding the value that ERGs play and how they are helpful for some people and then, like, being personally an introvert, it's a little bit hard for me. [both laugh] To go back to something I said earlier, they just need to be part of a more holistic strategy, and even I guess how they run. Like, so many times companies are using the term employee resource group and it really is an affinity group. It's a club. And there's sort of a--there's a cliqueyness that can come from clubs that is not helpful. So I think--I believe really strongly in meaningful connection. I think that sometimes the D&I community can sort of become a little bit insular in terms of how it thinks about--you know, you sort of get a group of D&I professionals together and they're like, "This is the answer," right? Because we've seen, you know, it's a decades-old profession, and we haven't seen monumental, humongous shifts in representation, right? So there's a list of best practices, and I think the D&I community--you know, myself included as part of it--it's like we latch onto these things and say, "Well, let's do this," but there is--like, each organizational structure is really different, and it's important to take into account what is gonna work in the organization to solve those specific challenges. I think, you know, we look at, like, Lean Six Sigma, and it's a process that you can apply to processes, you know, process improvement. It's a mechanism you can apply to process improvement to find efficiencies across any number of processes. I don't think diversity and inclusion is the same in terms of, like, having sort of one process that can be applied to everything. I think understanding the organizational culture and context is really important, and then understanding what the people at the organization want is really important. So I think ERGs have their purpose, but I also think I guess in the measure of that it's important to do some evaluation around, like, is this an affinity group, and do the people who are a part of it want it to be an affinity group, or do they want it to be more of an employee resource group that is focused more on mentoring, coaching, and sponsorship? Or more sort of meaningful connection versus safe space, right? I think affinity groups are like safe space. Come to this thing, this happy hour, or here's this sort of best practices or, like, who to go to for what. Employee resource groups are more building your network and influence across an organization, sponsorship, coaching, mentoring, sort of an intense focus on promotion and leadership development, and then business resource groups are very tied to strategy, right? How are we--like, is this, the black business resource group, the BRG, going to, you know, build us a nwe customer channel or a new revenue stream, right, based on their connection to the company? So I think organizations are not always clear on, like, what it is they're actually setting up and is that in alignment with the participants and what they're looking for. I just think it takes some extra work, right? It's easy to say, "Let's set up these things." It's harder to say, "Let's do some analysis around what kind of thing we need to set up and what it needs to do."Zach: You know what? I don't think that I've had any conversations with anyone really--let me take that back, I've had one conversation with someone who has--like, in private, and we were talking off the mic about the difference between an ERG and a BRG, but I don't know if I've ever had someone really articulate the difference between these different groups. I think that a lot of times what I'm seeing is that we're just using these terms interchangeably, right? Like, without any type of thoughtful definition as to what they mean, 'cause I can say that, like, there's one huge tech organization that uses affinity group, and they're doing way more than another tech organization that I know that is using the term BRGs, right? But I just gotta give you a Flex bomb, 'cause I've never heard someone, like, just very simply explain why those terms mean different things and why they matter. So hold on one second. Come on, Sound Man. Drop it for me right here. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? That's a DJ Flex bomb. Do you know Funkmaster Flex?Pamela: Yeah. I like it. I'll take it.Zach: I appreciate it. No problem.Pamela: It's like I've won the podcast. [both laughing]Zach: This has actually been a very, like, sound effect-light podcast, but, you know what, we're gonna pick it up here. So let's do this. Let's talk about diversity within the context of inclusion. In your opinion, can an organization be inclusive and not be diverse? Like, is a white boys' club inclusive?Pamela: I mean, I think this is the age-old diversity of thought discussion. So organizations will say, you know, "We don't look very diverse. Like, on our face we all look the same, but we have so much diversity of thought. We all look at things really differently," and I think--I mean, diversity of thought exists across everyone. Like, there's a reality to we're all individuals who are bringing our own contribution to the table, but I did--so I used to work at the U.S. Department of Defense, and I was facilitating, years ago, this senior executive diversity seminar. So it was a group of senior executives from various agencies because DOD is a big agency with a lot of subordinate agencies within it. So it wasn't people who were working together every day. They were, like, in different places across DOD, and we're facilitating this conversation around diversity and inclusion. It's a couple-day seminar, multi-day seminar. And one of the participants--I will never forget this--stood up. It was a woman. And she said, "For whatever diversity that exists across this group of people," like, whatever identity, diversity exists--and it was pretty diverse gender-wise with, like, one or two black and brown people, but otherwise didn't... you know, they were all about the same age, and everyone seemed like they were able-bodied, at least from my--you know, from what I could see, but she said, "For whatever identity and diversity exists in this group, we're all actually exactly the same person." She said, "If you lined up our resumes, there's sort of a path to becoming a senior executive at the Department of Defense. So we've all, for the most part, had prior military service, and we were all willing to move all over the world to serve in our next post," which is sort of, you know, a thing that's important at the DOD, and she sort of rifled through some things and said, you know, "We've all gone to this sort of handful of institutions, right? Naval Academy, West Point. We all probably maybe started--" A big part of DOD is the recruitment happens in the southeastern U.S., right? So we're all, like, from--she just sort of railed through these things about all of the ways that they were the same, and I think that it was a really just interesting thought in the room around, like, how an organization, as a huge organization, how does the DOD, like, build and grow leaders? They often do so, like many organizations, you sort of build and grow leaders one way, and it's the way that's worked before, so you replicate that, right? You know, you hired an engineer for this role and the engineer did really well, and then you look at the job responsibilities and you decide, "Well, they must have an engineering degree to do this well," even though the job responsibilities don't necessarily require the engineering degree. But then, you know, for the rest of eternity it requires the engineering degree, right? So I think that organizations lean in to what they can attest to, right? What they can say they have. I think inclusivity is about behavior, and so I do think the organization can be inclusive, can behave in a way where everyone feels respected, valued and included, they feel like they can [tie?] to performance, but I would push further to say, "But do those behaviors really exist if it's not a diverse workforce?" Because it means that there's some bar of entry, right?Zach: Right, stated or otherwise.Pamela: Yeah, stated or otherwise. Like, and I think organizations will say, "Well, we're based in Iowa, and it's not that diverse," or, like, "We're a family company, and so we're sort of small and, you know, we're just word-of-mouth," and my question is always, you know, "What is the opportunity?" Right? I did some work in rural Minnesota [laughing] a few months ago, and I was like--I thought it was in, like, the Twin Cities, in Minneapolis, and then, like, two days before they were like, "Okay, when you land we need to pick you up, and it's a 5-hour drive north." I was like, "Oh, my God. We're going to Canada." [both laugh] Like, I was not prepared for that, but it was really fascinating because I had a perception of what it's like to live in rural Minnesota and that it was probably predominantly white people, but there's several large Indian tribes. There's a growing, like, Somali population in the state of Minnesota generally. There's, like, this sort of large [?] Chinese enclave and I think a Vietnamese population, right? So during the course of this session that I was delivering and this conversation we were having, I could easily imagine an organization based in rural Minnesota saying, "Well, we're not diverse because, like, the people aren't here," but in the course of this conversation with their community foundations it's like, "Well, it sounds like there's a lot of different people here," right? So I think the thing that I would push on for an organization saying, "We're really inclusive and we have diversity of thought, you know," or "We're just not--a diverse population isn't interested in working here," or, like, "We've tried to recruit and it doesn't work," or, you know, "Most of our hires are through referral or word-of-mouth," I would just push on that and say, "Is that the best way to source candidates? Is that the best way to bring innovation into your organization? Is that the best way to look at things differently?" Like, there's an opportunity in that that I think organizations don't necessarily claim. They sort of talk it away. Like, no. It's your responsibility as an organization to explore that opportunity in my opinion, particularly again as we tie to performance, because if you're not doing it, then you're not doing everything you can to enhance the performance in the organization.Zach: So, you know, and you've talked about performance quite a bit, like, in terms of you've said the term and you've talked about tying it back. Can you give us, like, a practical example of what it means to tie inclusion to performance?Pamela: The easiest thing for people to relate to is an individual example, is to say, "If I feel encumbered in any way, if I feel--" So I worked for... I'll give you an example personally. So I worked for a woman for a long time who, on its face, identity-wise, we were very similar, and she sort of self-identified herself as my mentor, and I worked with her and I would complete projects for her in briefings. In the federal space briefings are a big deal, so you sort of work on them. They're very detailed, and you know in consulting as well, right? Like, you prep a deck, right, for a presentation, and the details are important, and it gets reviewed by all of the important people, and then someone delivers it. And so at the time I was much more junior and I wouldn't be the person who delivered it, but we'd be in these meetings and, because I'm the one who prepared it, right--the person who prepared it knows all the details. They know why the period is in that specific place--and so there'd be questions, and she clearly wouldn't know the answers to those questions. She'd sort of look at me, and I would answer the question, and then sometimes I would, like, throw in my two cents about it because that is my way. [laughs] And whenever I had--like, whenever I sort of got too big in my boots or, like, had too much of a thought about it, she would stop me in front of everyone and say, "Pamela, as your mentor, I think that's a private conversation we need to have. I need to give you some guidance on that. Let's not--" You know, that kind of thing, and so I think that--Zach: Hold on, hold on, hold on. Before you just fly past that. [both laugh] Had someone said that to me, I'd look at them like [record scratch sfx]. Like, what? You can't just--so what did you say? What did you do?Pamela: I mean, I was--so, you know, power was at play, right? Like, I was a--at that time, in that role, I was a contractor. I wasn't even, like a full-time employee. I was an on-site contractor for this work, and so in front of all these senior leaders and, you know, at the behest of my boss, I didn't really feel like I had an option. I mean, I needed my job. [laughs] So I would sort of shut up and just, you know, "Sorry about that. Look forward to talking to you about it privately," right? And just try to move through and control my facial expressions, but when we think about performance, right, that's very limiting, and so, like, that only had to happen a handful--you know, I'm a quick learner. Like, that only had to happen a handful of times before I understood that I didn't really need to be giving anyone my best ideas, and I frankly didn't need to be putting my best ideas into these briefings. Like, if she was gonna do them and she didn't need my thoughts, right? I think it's the same as, you know, you often hear in diversity, in terms of inclusion and best practices, about amplification, which came out of the Obama White House. The senior policy women realized that they were being skipped over. I mean, that is a direct connection to performance. You've got this idea, or you're all trying to solve a problem, you have a suggestion, and it's ignored. I mean, how many times do you keep doing that before you just decide, like, "You know what? I'm not gonna do it." Like, "It's not worth it," right?Zach: Listen, it takes--and it's funny because, like, the older I've gotten, the shorter my fuse is with that stuff, right? Like, if I take the time and I really put together things--'cause, you know, at a certain point, you know, you live life long enough [and] you don't really need validation on every single thing, so you know if you put a good idea forward and people just glaze over it or they ignore you or they co-opt it in some way, it's like, "Ah, okay. All right, I'll keep those for myself from now on." [laughs] Pamela: So I think these sorts of slights are limiting to performance, and I think that if we were to look at, like, team dynamics, right, the boss who minimizes certain people while elevating other people, that inhibits performance, and you rely on--I mean, management is the highest calling. Like, in a manager's role, you have infinite impact because you're impacting the performance of your entire team, and you're very much a connector, right? When you think of sort of middle management, you're a connector between the front line and then the operational or strategic perspective in the organization, and so you look at a manager who's doing that over the course of their, you know, 20-year career as a manager managing people and what sort of impact does that have on the performance of that team over the long term and how that team interacts with other teams and how we solve problems? So I think--and, you know, you look at retail, and of course, like, the common example, right, is the Starbucks incident a couple of years ago or Sephora last year. I mean, if that's not inhibiting performance, I don't know what it is. The performance in retail is whether you have consumers who are buying, and so if you've got whole groups of the population who you've shown through this mishap and through this behavior that they're not welcome in your space or you're not interested in them consuming, I mean, that has a serious impact on performance. Zach: You know what? And it's interesting because as you say that I think about, like, another really practical--like, a performance indicator, it's just around, like, the retention of your team, right? So, like, in tech there's this--at least from a marketing perspective--there's an ongoing push for these tech spaces to be more inclusive, to be more diverse, to be more welcoming of underrepresented employees, not just at the--at the non-manager levels, but at the manager and senior manager and executive levels as well, and yet, like, we're seeing that, like, these tech companies are just burning--first of all, tech is, like, a high-burn--like, consulting, [?], like, those different groups are high-burn places for everybody, and they're particularly high-burn for underrepresented folks, right? Black and brown women, LGTBQ, of course trans individuals. It's high, high, high, high-burn, high-turnover for these spaces, and it's interesting because I don't know--I'm a manager. Like, I'm the manager at a fairly large tech consulting firm, and retention of my team or, you know, how I'm able to help retain or drive retention of underrepresented folks is not measured. Now, I'm rewarded for recruiting people in. If I can refer somebody and bring 'em in, I have very hefty rewards for that, but what isn't measured, for me anyway, explicitly is how we make sure those people say.Pamela: I think, like, also the other reality of sort of consulting environments and high-burn, high-churn organizations is that we often dismiss people who leave as, like, it's a failing on their part, so we feel like people left 'cause they can't hack it, like, they can't cut it, it's too intense. I think more and more organizations are getting better at this, but I think lots of organizational cultures are designed to say, like, "That's not our responsibility." Like, "I got you here. It's not necessarily my responsibility to keep you." They don't say that. Like, on their face--you know, publicly they talk about the value of retention and strategies to retain people and, you know, exit interviews, but culturally the organization--someone will leave and then everyone else will hear, like, "Oh, they weren't really cut out for this anyway," or, like, "It's okay that they're not here anymore." So I think some of that cultural reality makes it tough too. Zach: There's a dollar value though with turnover. It costs money for people to leave, right? So unless, like, someone is, like, a legal risk to the company, 7, 8 times out of 10 it's cheaper to keep 'em, you know what I mean? And so it's just odd--it's odd to me that we're not... and I don't know. You know, I'm not a lawyer. Maybe we'll bring on somebody later in the season around, like, why is it that the recruitment efforts are so, like, so emphasized and marketed but the retention efforts aren't, because--I mean, I know enough about human resources to know that hiring somebody just to have them leave, like, a year, year and a half later is just, like, a crazy cost, right? And so even if, to your point around the culture, like, if we're not talking about from a moral perspective or even an ethical perspective, even if you just look at it from, like, a dollars perspective, there should be some type of focus on that, and I really want to take that and then get into this next piece. So I think that leads me well into my next question about inclusivity and employee engagement. I think it's fair though, before we get into that, for us to define what employee engagement actually means. So as a subject matter expert and just from your perspective, Pam, how do you define employee engagement?Pamela: So I think a lot of organizations talk about fit, and I think in the realm of diversity and inclusion, and particularly bias, conversations, fit is a bit of a four-letter word, and I think organizations put the burden of fit on the person who works in the organization. So, you know, they have to fit in our team. And I would argue that the burden is actually on the organization to create an environment where people fit, right? Like, where they can lean into their strengths and make a contribution, which I think ultimately what everyone wants to do. I mean, we all go to work for a paycheck, but you have a choice about where you get that paycheck from and how you spend your time. So I think the burden is on the organization to create environments where people can fit regardless of their identity, where their identity is not a hindrance to them fitting, quote-unquote, in the organization, and if such an environment is created, I think that helps employee engagement. I think that is a determining factor to employee engagement. If I feel like I belong in the organization, like I fit, like they've made space for me to be exactly who I am and make a contribution that I find meaningful that also contributes to the bottom line of the organization, then I am engaged, and that includes, you know, everything from organizational policies that tell me that I belong there to how my manager treats me or how my colleagues engage with me. Zach: And, you know, it's interesting because I know that, like, this idea around employee engagement, a lot of times--I did some work with... this was, like, before I was a consultant, but I was a part of this energy company, and Gallup was doing this whole, like, employee engagement survey for them.Pamela: Yeah. "Do you have a best friend at work?" [both laugh] That's their, like, infamous question.Zach: Yo, that's, like--boy. And no shade to Gallup 'cause I want y'all to come on here, but when they asked that at the time--this was some years ago--boy, you would have thought they figured out THE question to ask. I was like, "It's one question. It's one question, guys. Like, it's okay. Yep. We get it. It's not a huge indicator of a lot, but okay, great." But in that work with Gallup I remember that, like, one of the key talking points they had was like, "Look, employee disengagement isn't just, like, when the person is crossing their arms at their desk or always taking vacation or always sick or actively searching for another job on their computer," right? It's earlier than that, right? It's not that extreme. So I'm curious, like, what has your experience and research shown you how employee disengagement manifests and then how it's related to inclusive workspaces?Pamela: I think--like, as a manager, when you look sort of out across your team, there are people who are excited to be there. So I think it's less about--I think, again, sometimes we put the burden of employee engagement on the employee. Like, they're on Facebook at work or they're, like, you know, keeping Amazon in business during working hours, or they're showing up late or whatever, and we turn it into a discussion around, like, employee behavior and etiquette, but I think there's, like, a great--I mean, I think many people have great professional integrity, and they'll be disengaged and wouldn't be so belligerent in their behavior, right? [both laugh] They would, you know, search for their new job after hours on their home computer. And I think it's when they come in--and they would even continue trying to, like, do a good job and make a contribution, but, you know, they're doing what's asked and not necessarily coming to you with additional ideas, and they're not collaborating, right? You assign them something and you--I mean, engaged employees are actively engaged with their team, not only when they're directed to do so. So I think the sort of solitary nature of an employee is an early indicator that they're not engaged, right? Because when I'm engaged and I have something exciting--and I work remotely, so you have to be even more sort of deliberate about how you connect with people, but, you know, when I'm engaged and I'm excited about what I'm working on, I mean, I will call my colleagues just to say, like, "I want to hear what you think about this," or, like, "I just got this exciting--you know, a client just asked me for this thing. I'm sort of excited about it and would like to hear your ideas," or "Can I run this by you," right? I think how they're engaging, not just from an, I don't know, administrative standpoint in terms of, like, do they show up on time? [both laugh] It's more about, you know, are they working in isolation? Or are you seeing them actively engage with other people in the office? Do they have things at their desk that are of a personal nature? You know, I think people who don't feel like it's a right fit are much more cautious about that, right? They don't have pictures of their kids up or their partner, their puppy, right? You know, what do they do at lunch? And what does that behavior look like? So I think it comes across in how they're relating to other people in the organization.Zach: Right? And so when I think about what it means for leaders then to not undermine inclusivity or engagement at work, right? Like, I mean, I believe it calls for a much higher level of emotional intelligence and general empathy than we're giving folks credit for, and I question if organizations are doing everything they need to be doing to develop those muscles for leaders to even be sensitive and aware of those pieces that you just outlined, right? Because everyone has their own motivations, they have their own insecurities, they have their own pressures, and so it's--I empathize with the idea that okay, you have these leaders coming in, and they have these different metrics and things they have to hit, and also they need to be highly astute and aware of where their employee is, if they're paying attention, if they as leaders are creating an environment or opportunities for them to collaborate. If they're modeling collaboration, right? Like, in your work with FranklinCovey, have you had situations where you've had to have those types of conversations with leaders on how they can create more engaging environments?Pamela: I talk about that every day. I mean, I think that's a big thrust of our approach around unconscious bias and really all of our content. So I think emotional intelligence had a moment, right? It had a time, and it was a word that people were using, but it's sort of like self-awareness. Like, people say it's really important that you're, you know, self-aware as a lead, and everyone says, "I'm very self-aware," and then you talk to them for 5 minutes and you're like, "I don't know that you know what self-aware means," right?Zach: "I don't think you are." [both laugh]Pamela: "I don't think you're using that term correctly." So I think emotional intelligence is sort of similar. Like, you know, people know the four dimensions of emotional intelligence. You know, it's sort of like their DiSC profile. Like, they'll say, "I'm an EITJ," or whatever, and it just becomes this, like, default of, like, "I am" or "I am not." I believe emotional intelligence is a skill that you can build, and I think empathy is important, but I also think curiosity is important. You know, our CEO Bob Whitman did an interview recently, and he said curiosity is the #1 leadership competency or quality that he looks for in a person, and I just feel so strongly about that, because I think you can't be empathetic around information that you don't have. Like, I can't just--the goal is not to just be an empath who feels everyone's feelings. The goal is to learn something about someone that helps you relate to them. So as we were prepping, you know, for the interview, I talked about my kids, and you mentioned that you are welcoming a child soon. This is a point of connection. We can have some empathy about that, right? I can immediately think about what it was like when my kids first showed up and how lovely that was and the sort of high emotion of that experience, or, you know, you could hear me talk about my three-year-old and think, "Oh, wow. In three years I'll have a three-year-old." [both laugh] So I think that the curiosity piece is really important, and I think as managers--what I talk to managers quite often about is making the time for that. I think managers feel, particularly first-line leaders, you know, they were in a role as an individual contributor. They get promoted to that first-line leadership level, and they often still continue to do their individual contributor role and try to manage people.Zach: Right, on top of that.Pamela: On top of that, and there's just not enough time to do it. So of course you have to delegate and you have to trust your people, and there are strategies for how you can build trust in your people, build the capability of your people, but that has to be your new focus, and part of that is making some real time to cultivate connection among your team. And so, like, we'll talk with managers. We talk quite often at FranklinCovey about the value and importance of having one-on-ones and having a structure for those one-on-ones so that they're meaningful. It's not just a drive-by at your desk, right? It's not a weekly staff meeting, but actually having a one-on-one with people. And I'll talk to managers and they say, "Well, we have our annual performance review," and it's like... that's ridiculous. You can't have this conversation once, and around a performance document no less, right? So the one time that we engage in a one-on-one meeting, it's gonna be a high-stakes conversation, right?Zach: Where your livelihood is directly on the line.Pamela: Exactly. So I talk to leaders all the time about making the time and also being--you know, there are lots of introverts and lots of people to whom personal engagement doesn't feel natural, particularly at work, 'cause I think we're still fighting a little bit of the battle of, like, "I have a work persona and I have a personal persona," and I just--you know, one of the models we use at FranklinCovey to think about that is the whole person paradigm and just that you don't leave parts of yourself at home, right? You're a whole person all the time, and I really ascribe to that. I believe in that level of authenticity, and I think that we need to work deliberately to build that level of authenticity across teams. Managers need to ensure that they do know what someone's career goals are. Like, where do they see themselves in the future, and what are they interested in, and what are they excited about working on, and who do they really like to work with, and who are they challenged by, and, as a manager, can I find opportunities for them to connect with somebody they're challenged by so that we can improve our total dynamic, right? I worked for--in college, you know, I worked in college, and the best manager I've ever had I worked for in college, and she sort of sat me down and was like, you know, "I know that you work here and we have these goals around what we're doing." I worked in the student activity center, and we did programming around diversity and inclusion actually, and she said, "But you're a college student sort of at the beginning of your career and life, and it's important to not be myopic in terms of how you look at your goals." And so she gave me a little handout, and it had all of these different categories. It was like, finances and health and wellness and relationships and my family, and she said, "Every three months, every quarter, we're gonna sit down and just look at this and look at what your goals are. I'm gonna share with you my goals," right? So there was some vulnerability in it. It wasn't just like, "I will divulge my whole life story and you'll coach me through it." She was also sharing her goals, and particularly at a time--like, in college, my goal was, like, "I do not want to get my cell phone cut off again. I need to find a way to pay this bill," right? [laughs] And hers was "We're gonna buy a house." I was like, "Wow, a house," right? Like, the process of getting through a mortgage. Like, there's just--it's a small example of how a manager built connection with me through curiosity and empathy. She was vulnerable about what her goals were. She took the time to have this quarterly conversation with me. She created a space where I could talk about my whole self and everything I was dealing with at that moment in my life, and I think managers can do that on different scales based on the organizational culture and what is and is not appropriate to discuss and all that, but managers can do something like that with every member of their team, and they should, right? We shouldn't be having one annual performance conversation with your team. You shouldn't also--there are lots of employees who say they only speak to their manager to get assignments, right? So their manager just does drive-bys at their desk or calls them into their office to say, "Here, work on this," and never have, like, a more meaningful--Zach: Really transactional.Pamela: Really transactional, exactly, and for managers--managers will also lean into that. They'll say, "Well, no. It's just that I'm really efficient and I don't like to spend time and chit-chat," and that kind of thing, and it's more than that. It's not chit-chat. It's not--there's substance to having a meaningful conversation with somebody.Zach: That's just so true. So you've talked about bias and, like, you've used the term bias. You've even said unconscious bias. It seems as if the default any time we talk about bias within the diversity and inclusion space is that it's unconscious. Do you think that's a fair observation, and if so, why do you think that, when we talk about bias, we're often talking about unconscious bias and not just bias?Pamela: I think that's fair. I think--you know, really critical to any conversation I have about bias is about bringing the unconscious to consciousness, but also acknowledging that conscious bias exists. So I think unconscious bias can sometimes be used negatively, just like diversity of thought, but diversity of thought is really valuable, but it shouldn't be the reason you don't have diversity in other dimensions. And unconscious bias is really important, and it doesn't negate the reality that there are very conscious biases that exist and impact people's decisions. So I always include that in any conversation that I'm having about bias or any facilitation I'm doing, and the distinction is that conscious bias are things we can state directly. And so, like, once you can say it, it's no longer an unconscious bias. So you'll hear people say, like, "I have an unconscious bias around mothers of young children." Like, "I really just don't want to be hiring mothers of young children."Zach: Right, and that's a conscious bias. You just--you just said it. [laughs]Pamela: Right. Once you've said it it's not unconscious anymore, and it's important for people to reconcile that. You know, you're running interviews, and for all of the candidates of color you're asking them about, like, office etiquette, you know? Appropriate dress attire and showing up to work on time and how to, like, provide good customer service, and then for all of your, like, non-person of color, your white candidates, you're asking them about, like, the substantive job responsibilities, right? And then someone brings it to your attention--because interviews are often done in panel. There's usually more than one person at the interview, which is best practice, and they say, "Hey, I noticed that we spent, like, an inordinate amount of time with some of those candidates talking about what time they need to be at work, and I feel like at this level of a position that's not that significant. And I sort of noticed that you only asked some of them that and not others," and they're like, "Oh. Well, you know, I had this black lady working for me once and she was always late, and I just want to make sure that that doesn't happen again." Right? [laughs] Well, sounds like you've got a bias around that. I mean, once it's been brought to your attention, you don't get to keep doing it. Like, you don't get to keep making decisions through that frame, right? You have to work to mitigate the potential negative impact of that bias. So I think that any conversation around unconscious bias should include discussion about conscious bias and some of the real conscious bias that we have about, you know, employees at work and who should be in roles of authority and power, who should be promoted, or what kind of--you know, whether that is, you know, "We have this big project, but it requires lots of travel. We probably don't want Pamela to do that. She's got those little kids," or "She's taking care of her mother who's sick." Like, there's a bias in that. You should have a conversation with me about that. That affects my employment and my potential and possibilities in the organization. So I just think they come hand-in-hand and one can't be used as an excuse to ignore the other.Zach: No, I think it's just a great point, and I think the reason--so for me, it genuinely grinds my gears, because a lot of times I think D&I is often framed from the context of, again, like, majority comfort. So I believe that there's a lot of language where we kind of--and it's subtle, and it's kind of inserted all across. So diversity of thought, unconscious bias, sometimes in ways to just kind of give folks an out, and so I don't ever--I can tell you I don't ever hear conversations around conscious and unconscious bias. I hear it and it almost just automatically defaults to "unconscious," almost in a way to say, like, "It's not your fault," right? Like, it absolves you of responsibility as opposed to, "Okay, you have some actual biases, and they're true. Like, these are actual real biases that you have and you conduct and you're aware of, and they're not all mistakes," and I think sometimes when you talk about diversity and inclusion, when we're not talking about actual biases--and again, not in a way that tries to make white folks feel bad, but in a way that is just honest, I think that can lead to more productive conversations. We're in an era today where, you know, the 2020 election is coming up. We had a whole--a large part of America came to really see itself four years ago, and I think we have, like, another one of these instances coming up. It's, like, one of the rare times I think in this space that we can start pointing to things and say, "Hey, this is a lightning-rod moment. This is a lightning-rod moment." And I think we would be behooved to figure out a way to be a little bit more honest and intentional with calling out some of these things. I think it's really dope that the way that you frame these conversations is in the context of conscious and unconscious, but I can tell you, like, I have never heard anybody do that.Pamela: Yeah. I think a couple of things as you were talking came to mind. I think, you know, making white folks comfortable is an important part of work around diversity and inclusion, right? I do think we have too many internal conversations that, like, leave out that group of people, and it's important for us to--it's important for them to feel like they can join the conversation and help make progress, right, help make impact, and I think it's a fine line, right? Like, it's a fine line, and I walk it every day in my professional life to ensure that people feel like they can be part of the conversation without being accused of anything, and I work hard to create a space where people feel like they can be vulnerable and sort of divulge biases that they may realize, right, over the course of the conversation that we've had. The other thing that I think is problematic, the other sort of side of this, is, like, the call-out culture, that we don't actually--the more sort of "woke" our culture gets for... you know, lack of--I feel like I date myself when I say "woke." I'm like--Zach: No, it's okay. People will be using "woke" for another 10 years and, you know, most black and brown folks will be off it. It's okay. [both laugh]Pamela: But I think one of the challenges with, like, "woke" culture is that, like, we don't let people make mistakes, and people don't--so I think those two things are counter-balancing. Those things are--like, there's tension there in that, where we want to call things what they are, which I feel--you know, I feel strongly about, like, let's not use euphemisms to describe things. Let's talk about what the challenges are. Like, why is it that even in my unconscious bias work, lots of organizations will say, "Well, we really want to focus on gender diversity," right? Or "We really want to focus on our domestic workforce versus our global workforce." I haven't had, to this point, a single organization... maybe that's not true, but I haven't had very many organizations tell me "We want to talk about race," or, like, "We want to talk about trans people," right? So I think that there are some final frontiers around diversity and inclusion that organizations are not interested in addressing, and we have to get them interested in addressing those things. We have to name that and say, "It's important for us to also talk about race," right? We can't limit-

Ade and Zach sit down and have an entertaining discussion geared around Black History Month, and they both share their experiences in being frustrated by an employer's mismanagement of the celebration. Ade also talks a little bit about the body butter company she started, and she and Zach spend some time reflecting on how far Living Corporate has come since its launch in early 2018. Thank you all so much for your support! We owe it to you.Ade's body butter company soft-launches soon, so make sure to follow them on Twitter and Instagram. Congratulations, Ade!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. And it's not just Zach. Ade: Ayyyye. It's Ade.Zach: It's Ade alsooo, yo, and we here, man. Look, it's Black History Month. It's 2020. You know, January was big trash, so we're just gonna start over. We're gonna count February as January--nah, just... 2020 is gonna have 11 months, that's all.Ade: Yeah, let's do that. I like that idea.Zach: Yeah, we're just gonna start over. So yeah, you know, it's Black History Month. Whole fresh new decade, and, you know, a few episodes have dropped. Downloads are popping, by the way. Like, they're really good, Ade. The numbers look good.Ade: Yay, that's awesome.Zach: Yeah, pretty good. So we both have a lot of stuff going on. What's up in your world?Ade: God, what isn't up? No, [laughs] I'm just really enjoying the ride. I got--you know, my first bit of code at my job was deployed successfully, went really well. I panicked a little bit near the end of the sprint there, but I got it all the way through, so I'm excited about that. I started my butter company, and my soft launch is February 10th, so I'm also really excited about that, just getting the opportunity--Zach: Hold on. Butter company? Like, what's up? Like, you making animal butter? Or, like, cooking butter? Or--Ade: [laughs] No, although somebody gave me the idea to do that. You know I love cooking and I love experimenting in the kitchen, so that was an idea that hadn't occurred to me. But this is the year of action, so I took action. [laughs] So now I have a company--obviously besides, like, this one--but I'm really excited. I've been connected with a bunch of really great folks within the, like, creative community, and I'm excited to see where this goes. What about you, Zach?Zach: Well, first of all, hold on. We don't have to rush over to my stuff. Excited for you, congratulations on moving in action, moving in intentionality, you know what I'm saying? [air horns sfx] That's great, you know? But anyway, you asked me about myself. Yeah, so look, things are going great. Really focused on getting ready for my wife and I's first child coming in, like... I mean, if she doesn't come early--if she doesn't come early it will be in, like, 6 weeks.Ade: Whoo!Zach: Right?Ade: Oh, my gosh. You're so close to the finish line. And I would like to reiterate here that Ade makes a fantastic first time. I'm just saying.Zach: It's great. I love that, 'cause I'd like to reiterate... [haha sfx] You know? [both laughing] Ade: You are so wildly disrespectful.Zach: Not at all, not at all. I just stay ready, you know? I just stay ready. I think for me it's, like, focusing on, like, the radical change that's about to happen in our family, in our lives, then, like, just doing, like, a reassessment of just everything else around me, right? Because, like, I think initially--and I'm sure most people who are preparing for children, they go through this too--you're kind of like, "Oh," you know, they'll just kind of fit into your plans, and I'm like--as I, like, kind of pause and think about all of the things I have going on, I'm like, "Dang, wait. Certain things are gonna have to shift and change." Like, it's not gonna just be like, "Oh, I'm picking up a new hobby," or starting a new podcast, like, this is a whole new person, a whole person that's about to be, like, active, actively involved and will have active present needs from myself and my partner for at least the next 18 years, right? If not the rest of their lives. So it's like, what does it look like? So y'all, this is not me alluding to the fact that the podcast is about to stop or anything like that, it's just more about life. Like, you know, talking to other fathers who had to make career decisions and think about, like, what did it look like for them to make adjustments, how do you communicate with your teams about being a dad and, like, the new responsibilities as a parent? Those are things I'm really excited to, like, explore and, like, really discover over the next few--you know, over the next months and stuff like that as I get ready for paternity leave and all that kind of stuff. Like, really just, like, being really clear with, like, what does it look like to, like, live in this new world? 'Cause, like, I don't know. Like, I'm 30 years old, so it's not like I'm--I'm not old, so I still have things--Ade: [whispering] Yes, you are.Zach: That's jacked up.Ade: [laughs] I too got shots in my pocket.Zach: That's crazy. I see you. But the thing about it is, like, I still have a few decades more of career to have, and so it's like I don't want to just, like, kind of sit on my laurels because I have kids. Like, what does it look like to still progress and have a career and, like, develop and do all these things while at the same time being a very present and attentive and engaged father? So normal stuff. Like, I think it's a challenge. It's a good problem to have. It's something that is--it's a problem created by growth, so to me that's a--I count that as a good problem. So that's, like, the main--the big, big thing, then the second thing is just, like, continuing to slow down and focus on, like, mental health. Like, my own personal mental health and, like, my mental wellness, right? I think the more and more people I--especially black men--that I talk to who are transitioning out of their twenties, you know, it's like--I've talked to more and more folks who are, black men, who, like, this is the time when they go to counseling, right? Like, if you haven't gone already. And I've gone at certain points in time. We did pre-martial counseling. I've done, like, personal counseling as I got ready to get married, but I haven't really ever gone to, like, see someone, like, a true therapist, right? Like, a true, like, psychiatrist. I think that there's a certain stigma around mental health, right, for black people, and I would say particularly for black men, and so it's, like, getting comfortable with talking to people and, like, really getting help and just talking through things. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think, like, the road of life has all of these different bumps and potholes. You're gonna have mileage and just damage and disalignment that you just need help with just because of the reality of life and the trauma that life brings, especially in the context of white supremacy and patriarchy. So shoot... and then the last thing, y'all, I think I'm just really excited about, again, like, Living Corporate. Like, yo, we got featured on Forbes, man.Ade: Oh, my God. I just--Zach: What is it? So be honest. When you saw it, what did you--Ade: Okay, I just want to put some context. I am not--I don't scream very often.Zach: Did you scream for real?Ade: At the top of my lungs.Zach: Did you really?Ade: I really did. [Zach laughs] And here's why. Like, it genuinely is a life goal for me to make it on Forbes' 30 Under 30, so when you sent that link to me, I was like, "Surely he is just sharing a link of podcasts that we should emulate or, you know, link up with these people and get a sense of what they do, how they do it, how well they're do--" Nope, there's our name. I was like, "Holy--" I was on top of the Moon. It was a moment for me, okay, personally.Zach: I was curious. Well, 'cause I texted you and we didn't, like--'cause we didn't, like, really react in the moment. Like, I reacted. I texted you. I was happy. But you were in the middle of your work day and, like, I had some time in my day, so I was able to step away and, like, actually hit you, right? And so when you--[laughs] But you didn't, like, react, so I was like, "I wonder if she really cared about that." Like, not that you didn't care, but did it do anything for you. But for me I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, I was shocked. Ade: Absolutely. No, I need you to--I just want to, again, reiterate the fact that I don't scream on a regular basis. It's not my personality type to just be out here in these streets wildin'--at least in that way, 'cause I do be wildin'. I'ma just be honest.Zach: Right, you do. That's true.Ade: [laughs] You didn't need to agree with me. I was just--Zach: You know, you put it out there. It's on Twitter.Ade: Okay. All right, this is fine. But really, it was such an honor, and it was something that I would not in the--I mean, if we, like, rewind a year and a half or whatever--it was actually about this time two years ago. Are we two years [?]? Wait a minute.Zach: Yeah, it's been, like, two years.Ade: Holy [bleep?]Zach: Right? It's been nuts.Ade: [laughs] I really need you to understand that I'm literally just coming to the realization that Living Corporate is almost two years old. That's wild. That's so wild to me. We need sweatshirts and hoodies.Zach: We need merch, man. We need merch. We should really drop, like, little collections. Like Popeye's.Ade: We should. We should, like, go through and figure out what our favorites from our guests and from our hosts are and then, like, make some sweatshirts, 'cause I would wear my sayings. That's all I'm saying.Zach: You would wear your own sayings?Ade: Absolutely. What? Absolutely.Zach: Nah, that's the definition of a narcissist. You'd put your own quotes on clothing and walk around in them?Ade: Uh-huh, I would.Zach: Wow.Ade: I would. You know why? Because I have some fire, fire sayings. Zach: [laughs] That's crazy. You do, but it's like... you can't say that though. Like, that's crazy.Ade: What? No. 2020 is the year of big upping yourself.Zach: Wow. You know what though? I respect it, 'cause, you know what I'm saying, if no one else is gonna wear your sayings, you may as well.Ade: Exactly. Precisely. Kobe was a fan of big upping myself, and so am I.Zach: He was. That's true though. You know what? That's a good point.Ade: And the way that I do see it is, like--being a little bit more serious about the subject, 'cause I was kind of making fun of the entire concept, but sincerely, like, we preach that you have to be your own best advocate, right? And we preach that you have to kind of take stock and make sure that you are keeping records of your good deeds when you do them so that you can be able to speak to your managers, your peers and your supervisors, all of these things, but when you are an entrepreneur or you are an individual contributor or anything of the sort, you have to do the same, right? Like, you have to be too, and this was something that I had to get comfortable with. And I'm still not comfortable with it, to be frank. Like, I handed people an 8-ounce jar of my product, and they were like, "Well, how much is this?" And I'm, like, waffling around, like, "I kind of don't want to ask anybody for money for this," but it's a product, right? But being able to, like, stand on your two feet and be like, "No, this is a thing that I've done, and I'm worth the time and the investment that you're going to make in my product or in me as a person." It's all a part of being confident in all of the work that you've done. You're not asking people to buy into a single thing. You're asking them to buy into you as an idea, and if you're not willing to, you know, kind of say it with your chest, as Africans will say. [laughs] If you're not willing to say it with your chest, then who's supposed to be willing to stand behind you and say it with their chest? You see what I'm saying?Zach: Yeah, straight up. Like, you have to be willing to advocate for yourself and, like, promote yourself, because--I mean, the Internet is such a big and busy place and, like, the world is so big and busy that, like, yeah, there--and I was just having a conversation with a guest that I will not reveal yet because I like guests being a surprise week-to-week, but a guest I was having a conversation with, we were talking about networking and how, like, the world is connected, but it's connected via a series of, like, closed loops. So it's not like you can just, like--the world is connected, but you still have to, like, be in certain circles for things to even get started, right? And so, like, the idea of like, "Oh, I'ma just do this thing over here in this corner, and then if it's good it will eventually get seen." It's like that's not really true. Like, you have to really actively promote whatever it is that you got going on. Like, period. That's just the way it is. But yeah, to your earlier point about, you know, it being two years and Living Corporate being around almost two years, right? So, like, April will make two years--or is it June? Golly, I can't remember. Anyway, some time--Ade: I think it was April, but we definitely had, like, our inaugural Skype or, what was it, Google chat in February.Zach: There it is. You're right, we did. We did have our inaugural Google chat in February just to talk about things, and then, you know, we kicked everything off a couple months later, but it's crazy 'cause, like--and shout-out to Dr. Gassam, who wrote the piece for us, the article for us, and shouted us out and, like, you know, put us up as #1. I don't know what those little numbers mean, you know what I'm saying? Like, 'cause I really--what I was really shocked about was everybody else on that list, everybody on that list are huge. Like, shout-out to Side Hustle Pro. Shout-out to Code Switch, dawg. Shout-out to Myleik. I was like, "Yo, we're up here with Code Switch? Myleik?"Ade: Code Switch.Zach: Code Switch! And yo, shout-out to NPR and Code Switch, because I remember when we first started thinking about, like, Living Corporate, like, as a podcast, we were like, "What are the ones that really inspire us?" And me and at least one other person was like, "Code Switch," 'cause, like, the format is so fire. Like, shout-out to y'all, man. So, like, even if anybody--for anybody to think about us in the same vein as them, like, I feel like that's a win on its own, 'cause that lets me know--that affirms me that, like, we're achieving [against?] the vision that we had initially set out, but it's crazy 'cause there's been, like, a lot of ups and downs and, like, a lot of stuff going on, but, you know, [Paul Rudd look at us sfx, Ade laughs].Ade: I'm just over here, like, giddy and over the Moon. Yeah, no, and it's funny because you're not the only person who sent me that link, and that's, like, the other thing that [?].Zach: Oh, you didn't tell me that.Ade: No, like, sincerely, you weren't the only one that sent me that link. My friend sent me that link, and I actually encountered someone--shout-out to you, you know who you are--who I literally had just, like, been talking to him. He's transitioning into tech. I just, like, try to make sure I'm giving people advice and help and checking in with people that I know are making the same transition, and I reached out to him, and he was like, "Wait, are you Ade from Living Corporate?" Zach: What?Ade: 'Cause he literally met me from an entirely separate context. And so to be able to encounter someone who, you know, knows of us and knows me in my best light, not, you know--clears throat--anyway. Zach: Dawg, I'ma tell you something. One day--one day, y'all... hey, listen, y'all. Some of y'all are, like, listening to this with a confused face. Trust me, I'm confused too, but one day we're gonna come on this podcast and we're gonna have a real conversation about the crazy life that Ade lives, 'cause why would you come on here and say, "Yeah, this Forbes article, and someone who knew me, and not in my best--" And then this awkward pause. I hear you audibly gulp in the mic. Like, what? [laughs] Y'all, y'all understand the type of work--like, y'all understand the team I have, right? Like, that's crazy. Y'all, don't treat me like--yeah, now y'all know what I'm doing with. What kind of weirdness is that? Go ahead. This person who hasn't seen you at your best and sent you the Forbes link. What?Ade: [sighs] I'ma just move forward. [Zach laughs] No, no, no.Zach: I wonder, is Ade the Mal of this podcast? 'Cause I'm certainly Joe Budden. I realize that. But Ade might--Ade might be the Mal. She might be the Mal of this podcast. She's, like, a little too cool to pod, but then she'll say [?] things.Ade: I demand we move forward. [both laugh]Zach: Goodness, gracious. Go ahead. Keep going.Ade: Anyway, so I'm just really grateful for, you know, where we are, and--first of all I want to give Zach and our writing team and our production team and our social team all the props, like, every single prop that exists, because you have been put in blood, sweat, tears, money, effort, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum into this, and it shows in the quality of our partners, our work, our podcast, our newsletters. Like, everything. Like, you've been really intentional about the direction that Living Corporate would take, and I really respect that, and you are by far one of the most aggressive--but you're not gonna beat me up though--type energies [?].Zach: [laughs] It's true though. It's true. [both laughing]Ade: And Living Corporate has enjoyed that energy, enjoyed the fruits of that energy.Zach: I do have "but you're not gonna beat me up though" type energy, and I've come to peace with that. It's true.Ade: It's my favorite thing about you, and also, like, simultaneously your worst quality when you turn it on me, [both laugh] but--[to this day sfx]Zach: [laughing] Oh, my gosh. It's true. But this is the thing, you gotta have "you ain't gonna beat me up though" energy, because boy, the world will beat you up, boy. The world out here tryna come--it coming for your neck, dude. I mean, every day I'm over here like [Cardi B blatblat sfx] with these haters, man. I'm trying to, like, stay alive out here. I gotta fight every day. Every day. All my life, literally trying to fight and then at the same time avoid--[Law and Order sfx]--like, at the same time. [both laugh] I be so aggravated, man. Do you know the fine line you have to walk as a black man? Man, I'm telling you, being black is so exhausting. Being black and conscious, like--James Baldwin, man. He was not lying, dawg. Not lying at all, because you are in a rage all of the time, and you're over here trying to, like, stand up and just speak to the fact that you're worth something. Listen... eugh. You're over here trying to literally raise your voice loud enough to be heard and respected, but not too loud, right?Ade: 'Cause [?], and here y'all come.Zach: Here y'all come, without at the same time going to jail. So it's, like, this fine line that you have to walk. It's just nuts. Anyway, nah, I appreciate that, Ade. And, you know, I appreciate you as well. You know, you're here. The biggest--Ade: Finally.Zach: Finally, that's true. But look, you was gone for a little minute, but you back in town. You know? It's okay. I think the biggest thing--what do they say, "the biggest ability is availability?" It's corny. It's kind of a coach's--coaches say that, but it's a true statement. Like, just be present, you know? I know one thing, and shout-out to Rod from The Black Guy Who Tips and Karen, his lovely co-host and partner, but one of the things he said, like, from the jump--like, he jumped on our podcast early. He was like, "Yo, being consistent--" He's like, "'Cause people come and leave, like, jump on these podcasts and leave all of the time." He's like, "So having some longevity is hard over time," and if it wasn't for our team - Aaron, Sheneisha, Amy, Latesha, Tristan... like, we have a great, great team, and we put out a lot of content. Like, we're posting three episodes a week every single week, and, like, that doesn't happen without a huge team--or, I'm sorry, relatively huge and a consistently dedicated team. So, like, really proud of them, really proud of, like, just what we've been able to do, and just, like, really thankful for Dr. Gassam, 'cause, like, there's plenty of other platforms that are trying to make content. I really still stay that, like, it's us, Trill MBA and, like... that's kind of it right now that's out here really talking about other in majority-white spaces. Anyway, so look, it's Black History Month. Have you seen any--I'm just gonna ask the question. I don't know why I'm trying to, like, play it safe. Have you been on a job where your employer has annoyed you by how they've handled Black History Month?Ade: Let me count the ways. I--[laughs] Whoo, let me take a breath. All right. I have been aggravated by several firms, actually, simply because--Zach: [laughs] Yes, shout-out "firms." Consulting, we're talking about y'all. [laughs]Ade: Looking right at you, friends. Zach: Looking right at y'all, professional services. Yes. [laughing]Ade: No, I just--there's nothing I hate more than double-talk, and by that I mean firms, corporations, whatever it is that y'all would like to call yourselves--active participants in capitalism--who pay lip service, either through, like, their mission statements, their values, their creed, or even their stated employee resource groups that they care about diversity and somehow consistently fail to make a statement or support or do anything of value, particularly during Black History Month. I noticed this during my employment at a firm I will not name in the past where, you know, July 4th came around, Veteran's Day came around. You know, all of those things were celebrated or commemorated by words from the leadership of the firm going out, but when Black History Month came and went there was nary a bleep, and it was so noticeable because, you know, the firm had something to say on MLK Day, but, you know, when ostensibly there would be time for--and to their credit, the employee resource group put on one... ONE program for the entire month of February. I understand that, you know, funding is a thing. It's difficult to organize sometimes around different people's schedules, but, you know, one event over the course of the entire Black History Month? I cannot tell you how deeply bothersome I found that, simply because you have a body of people who are, whether they consciously or not notice these things, are essentially being utilized as resources by this firm. I mean, you are essentially selling our time to all of these contracts, you're making millions off of us, and you can't take the time during Black History Month to care about Black History, but you can, on July 4th, take time to commemorate these things? Or you can during Veteran's Day or Memorial Day or Labor Day and all of these other things. So it feels like a very intentional slight, because, I mean, I know that your calendar functions the same way that my calendar does, and I know that your Google functions the same way that my Google functions, so it's not like you're missing out on the reminders that these things exist. So when there's an intentional exclusion, or what feels like an intentional exclusion, of black people from, you know, your commemorative messages, it's like, "Heard you. We see where your priorities are." And an even further extension of that logic is that when--you know, during these programming sessions there are no, like, leadership in the room to attend these programs or there's no support, you know? People have to come out of pocket for things, to pay for things. It just feels very ugly. I'ma use that word, ugly. Dusty. Musty.Zach: Raggly.Ade: Raggedy.Zach: And there's a difference now, and this is where--so, you know, you and I, I love the diversity just in our pairing, right? But, like, you know, you're an East Coast black and I'm a Southern black, right?Ade: Precisely.Zach: It's interesting, 'cause you said raggedy, and see, what I said was raggly.Ade: Raggley, mm-hmm.Zach: Raggly. Not raggley, raggly. Now, look, I want--'cause every now and then I teach--and if you're listening to this you know who you are, but for the white folks that I trust, the Buckys out there, the allies, or the aspirational allies, that I trust, every now and then I'll teach y'all a phrase called "fifty-'leven," right? You know who you are. If you're listening to this and you actually, you know, rock with me and you listen to this, I've taught you this. [both laughing] I've taught you all these phrases, and this is another one for y'all to take in. So look, it's not raggedy, nor is it raggley. It's raggly. It's two syllables, and that is often times a descriptor for how companies manage Black History Month.Ade: I will make an amendment to that statement, 'cause I don't necessarily agree. There are, uh, regional differences to dialects, you see. [Zach laughing] So while Zach is correct for his particular region of the Souf--notice I said Souf--Zach: That's true. Souf. That's true. That's fair, 'cause Southern is--'cause we live in America. Southern is a huge region. That's true. That's fair.Ade: Take his advice lightly, you know? Do with that what you will. Zach: [laughs] Be careful.Ade: And, uh, if you get run up on, please don't quote us.Zach: Don't quote me.Ade: 'Cause we will not be popping up [?].Zach: Uh-uh, uh-uh. Don't. And honestly, maybe don't say fifty-'leven around everybody. They'll be like, "Who taught you that?" And don't tell 'em it was me. [laughs] Nah, but no, I'm right there with you when it comes to, like--I've been in situations where, you know, either we don't celebrate Black History Month at all, we don't recognize it in any way, or employee resource groups will get, like, the black people to huddle together and they'll go do something, right? It's like, "Um..." Black history is American history. This should be something company-wide. And I'm not saying we gotta do something every single day, but can we do at least one thing? Can we recognize some of the black pioneers in our own firm, in our own companies? Like, we have our own historical marks that we've made, but I think--I don't know. It's tough, it's tough because--and honestly, like, even I say this, like, I get--like, I'm hearing... 'cause there's some executive leaders and folks who listen to Living Corporate, right? And they listen to it for different points of insight or whatever, and so there's a part of me who--and they're like, "Well, dang, I can't even win for losing," 'cause, like, the other part of me is gonna say, "And even if you are doing something for Black History Month, what are you doing for the rest of the year?" Right? 'Cause it can just be, like, an acknowledgement. Like, what are you doing? What are you doing to, like, actually advance having a more equitable and inclusive culture that drives belonging in your place of work? But I do think, like, at just the--I mean, I'm talking, like, floor level, if we could just start with some acknowledgement, you know? Like, you don't have to always quote Martin Luther King. You could actually, like, integrate and be intersectional with your Black History Month if you wanted. [Ade laughs] You can! Like, you can actually, like, quote trans rights, trans activists who happen to be black, and you can tie that in with, like, your LGBTQ ERGs. You could quote, like, Afro-Latinx civil rights activists and, like, historical people, and, like, integrate them. Like, there's all types of ways. You know there's ways that you can actually--you could use Black History Month to drive intersectional conversations and activities for your whole firm, 'cause black people are not just black. Black people are black and gay, black and Latinx. They're black and straight. They're black and female. They're black and disabled. Like, it could actually be something that could be--you know, you could use Black History Month similarly to how you use black and brown people anyway, which is really kind of like just the glue that holds everybody together. You could just use us if you want. You could use the month how you use black and brown people. Like, let me just be super cynical, right? You could actually--like, from a programming perspective, from, like, a networking and engagement perspective, from, like, even leveraging--like, getting more thought leadership, like, you could do all types of things with that month. You have a whole month, and this month you have a whole extra day. So it's like--Ade: No excuses.Zach: No excuses, right? Like, you could do something. And, like, if you need any help with ideas, then, I mean, you could talk to your own leadership. You could talk to--I don't know. There's just so much out there now. There's just so much--maybe we just need to drop an article on ideas for your Black History Month. Maybe that's what we do, 'cause, like, I don't--Ade: You know what? That's a good idea.Zach: I mean, maybe that's what we do, 'cause, like, I'm over here just thinking about it more and more. It's like, "I don't know if I've been a part of any company that I have walked away and felt like, "Wow, I really feel seen this Black History Month." I don't think that's ever happened to me. In fact, I remember last year I tried to quote a--like, I was on a project and there was a quote board, okay? So you put a little quote up there, and I was like, "Oh, it's Black History Month," and I tried to quote--I think I quoted, like, Oprah Winfrey or something like that, and, like, they literally erased it and put up some white man's quote and they were like, "This is more relevant." I said, "But I thought it was a quote board." Ade: Right?Zach: Like, what? What are you talking about? What do you mean it's more relev--okay... and again, that's where I had to make a choice between, like, okay, am I about to die on this hill? Am I gonna go to jail? Like, what am I gonna do? 'Cause, like, I just--I don't--nope. So I had to make a decision, but anyway. So okay, what else do we have going on? So what's the name of the company though? The body butter company. I'm jumping all around now. What's--'cause we didn't talk about that before.Ade: [laughs] Right. So my company is called Solari, S-O-L-A-R-I. It is a portmanteau of my name, or a part of my name, and my mom's name. And on Instagram and on Twitter I'm pretty sure our handle is @SolariBody, so it's S-O-L-A-R-I-B-O-D-Y. And yeah, I'm really excited. I'm kind of blushing right now. [laughs] I'm really excited about just getting started and just being able to expand my reach. So I've been doing a lot of kind of, like, self-care stuff for a very long time, like making my own body butters and making my own, like, lip balm, conditioner, and all these other things--and scrubs--and just the idea of being able to... and this is another thing that happened, but I'll finish my sentence. Just the idea of being able to utilize all of the things that I put into practice because I want to take care of myself and take better care of myself. So, for example, I would, like, make my own hair oils, but when I realized that other people wanted these things and don't necessarily want to go through the process of experimentation to figure out all of the ideal things--and I've already been doing these things for over a decade--I was just kind of like, "You know what? I'm gonna do this, and it's gonna be fun," and the reception has been fantastic.Zach: Well, I'm really proud of you. I'm happy for you, you know? I think--you talked about this a little bit on the last, when we did our season kickoff episode, but it's easy to, like, get in your own way and to like, you know what I'm saying, just let anxieties and different challenges, like, just hamper you or kind of put you in a stalemate, but it's really exciting, like to see you continue forward and build something. Ade: Thank you.Zach: You're absolutely welcome. Man, so, you know, my cadence as I was pausing there, it reminded me of my own Barack Obama impression that I do at the house for fun with Candis just to get on her nerves, 'cause I was almost like... [impersonating Barack] "Uh, Ade, it is, uh... impressive how you have taken the time," you know what I mean? I almost--and then I go into, [continuing] "Every day, there are Americans who get up, they have their challenges--" [Ade sighs, Zach laughs] "If there was any doubt, uh, that you could not do what it is that you're doing today, uh, you have nowhere else to look but in the mirror. Uh, you get up. You put that butter on your dry skin. Uh, you hydrate yourself, and you face a world that is not ready for someone like you."Ade: I'm about to hang up on you, sir. [both laugh] I am so done.Zach: [laughs] Goodness, gracious. So all right, y'all. Well, look, this was just a fun episode, you know, letting you know what we've got going on. Thank you so much. Shout-out to everyone who listens to this podcast. Shout-out to--shoot, I ain't gonna get into all the shout-outs, but just shout-out to y'all. Make sure that you share this with your people. Continue to share it. The numbers are showing that y'all are sharing it, and I look at our stats every single day 'cause that's just kind of the person I am, the obsessive person that I am, but [laughs] we're really appreciative. And then, shoot, I guess we'll see y'all next time. Make sure you follow--Ade: Wait, one last thing before we go. We kind of vaguely talked about it, but I do want to insert a moment of silence here for Kobe Bryant and his daughter and all of the passengers of the helicopter that went down. We actually weren't able to get on this podcast to discuss it because we were just so emotional. I tried, and it's about 7 minutes worth of just sobs and sniffles on that, but I think this is a pretty good time to do it. So if everyone listening could just join us in a moment of silence. [a moment of silence] Thank you. Zach: Nah, for sure. Yeah, we could talk about--we're gonna have to have an episode about trauma and, like, the ways that trauma impacts black and brown people at work every day, and how we're still expected to just, like, show up and perform two or three times better than our counterparts just so that we can keep our jobs. So... but yeah.Ade: And I just also actually--I think we should have a black heroes episode.Zach: I love that.Ade: I think that in an episode coming up soon we're gonna discuss, you know, some of our heroes, and Kobe's one of mine. People who have just shown you how to get through life with dignity and with grit, and that's a term that I didn't used to use so frequently and so intensely until now. But again, it's a topic that we'll be covering later, but suffice to say that was a shock to my system, and I didn't expect that it would be so shocking. I didn't expect just how strongly I would react, and I suspect that so many others found themselves reeling in the aftermath of that news. Our prayers and our thoughts of those affected. And another topic I think we should also explore is, you know, how to disconnect in times of trauma and to kind of reassess and to find your balance in those times as well. That's it for me.Zach: Nah, I love that, and I super agree. And y'all, on that super, you know, emotional, heavy note, we're gonna catch y'all next time, okay?Ade: For sure.Zach: Now, look, you make sure you check us out. We're @LivingCorporate on Instagram, @LivingCorp_Pod on Twitter. We have all the different domains. One day, man, we're gonna get that livingcorporate.com domain, man. Right now we have all the livingcorporate dot everything but com, and then we got living-corporate.com, but shoot, until next time. This has been Zach.Ade: This is Ade.Zach: Peace, y'all.Ade: Peace.

Zach chats with Michelle Kim, co-founder and CEO of Awaken, in this episode centered around effectively creating inclusive leadership cultures. Michelle shares her journey into social justice work with us, including what led to the creation of Awaken, and she explains why she and her organization prioritize the needs of the most marginalized people in the room.Connect with Michelle - she's on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn!Check out Awaken's website and social media pages! Twitter, IG, FB, LinkedInYou can read Awaken's Medium blog by clicking here.Want to learn more about Build Tech We Trust? Here's their website and Twitter!Click here to read the Salon piece mentioned in the show.Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach. Yes, again, it's me. Your boy, your host, your friend, your co-worker--maybe your co-worker, I don't know. If you work with me you know that I have this podcast, and, I mean, hopefully if you're checking it out, you know, hopefully you're having a good time. Shout-out to you. I'm not gonna say your name, but you know I'm talking to you. What's up? Look, you know what we do. We serve to amplify the voices of black and brown people at work, and we do that by talking to black and brown people in a variety of spaces, right? So these could be executives, public servants, activists, creatives, entrepreneurs, anybody, and we try to have these conversations in approachable and authentic ways, centering black and brown and otherwise underrepresented experiences and perspectives at work, and today we have with us a very special guest, Michelle Kim. Michelle is the founder and CEO of Awaken, a firm that empowers leaders and teams to lead inclusively and authentically through modern interactive and action-oriented workshops. Prior to Awaken, she had a successful consulting career working with C-suite and VP-level executives at high-performing companies around the world, helping them set ambitious business goals and align their teams to achieve them. While working in management consulting and technology start-ups, she experienced and validated first-hand the urgent need for modern, up-to-date education that empowers leaders to be more empathetic, agile, and culturally aware. Come on, now. Culturally aware. Pay attention. Michelle's experience in organizational change management, strategic goal setting and social justice activism set the groundwork for Awaken's multi-disciplinary and action-oriented learning programs. As an immigrant queer woman of color, Michelle has been a life-long social justice activist and community organizer. Michelle, what's going on? Welcome to the show.Michelle: Hey, thank you for having me. I'm so honored.[yay sfx]Zach: No doubt. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. Michelle: Those are the sound effects that you told me about. [laughing]Zach: Yes, yes. So for those who are newer to the show, I have a soundboard. I have all types of sounds on here, you know what I'm saying? You know, we add a few things from time to time, and, you know, just enjoy yourself. If you're new to this space, sit back, grab something to drink--it doesn't have to be alcoholic, you know? I respect your choices, your boundaries. But enjoy the soundscapes that are gonna be coming to you in this episode and many more to come.Michelle: I love the production.Zach: You know what? We gotta add a little bit of razzmatazz, just from time to time. So let's do this. You know, I gave a little bit of an intro, but for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Michelle: Sure. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Zach, for the intro. I think you covered a lot in my intro, but I think something that some people might be familiar with is actually my writing. I am an [?] writer. That's how I communicate my thoughts and perspectives to the world, in addition to facilitating workshops and doing speaking like this one or on stages all over the country. My passion is in really closing the gap between how we talk about social justice in our society today and how, you know, quote-unquote diversity and inclusion gets done, and quickly. So I think that there's a lot of work that we can do to help bridge the gap in understanding and awareness of how we communicate with each other. And also a fun fact about me is I'm a Virgo.Zach: Shout-out to Virgos. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. You said you're a Virgo?Michelle: I'm a Virgo.Zach: Man, shout-out to the Virgos one time. I'm also a Virgo. [air horns sfx] You know what I'm saying? They don't know about us like that. But please, tell us about your Virgoness.Michelle: You know, a lot of my friends who know me closely know my tendencies to be highly critical, but I also think that's what--I think being critical gets a bad rep, but I actually think that being critical is what makes me decent at my job. I also think that I have perfectionist tendencies, which I don't think is healthy, so I'm working on that. I like being organized. I am a huge fan of to-do lists. And I love--my love language is acts of service, so I think that also aligns with me being a Virgo. So I tend to, you know, go overboard when it comes to supporting other people, sometimes to a fault, 'cause I need to prioritize self-care and boundaries and all of that, but I'm not. I'm not perfect at that stuff.Zach: I just feel so--I feel so seen in you talking about yourself.Michelle: [laughing] Good. I'm glad, I'm glad. Virgos unite.Zach: They do. And honestly, like, you know, here we are, two people who over-extend for others sitting down, having a conversation that really helps to amplify one another. Isn't that something? [look at us sfx] Not me, you know what I'm saying?Michelle: That's right.Zach: [laughs] You were about to say something.Michelle: I said "Do you know who else is a Virgo?"Zach: Beyonce.Michelle: Beyonce's a Virgo. So whenever I feel like I need to be [?] about being a Virgo, I look to Beyonce for inspiration.[ow sfx]Zach: I'm right there with you. I mean, if she can do it, certainly I can do it. And, you know, my dad's a Virgo, so shout-out to my dad. He was born on the 6th, I was born on the 4th, and, you know, we're a lot alike. Okay, so yeah. Let's talk a little bit about your inspiration for social justice, and I really want to--'cause social justice is such a broad term. It's often even, like, used as a pejorative these days. So, like, when you say social justice in, like, your history, what does that look like for you?Michelle: That's a great question. My journey into social justice work really began with the lens of being a queer person. You know, I think my journey really started with my coming out. So I came out as queer and bisexual when I was 16. So I was in high school, and I was really confused. I didn't know about, you know, any social justice issues beyond--I think what people were talking about then were women's rights, and, you know, now I understand that to be white women's rights, but we'll get into that more. But when I came out as queer I didn't have a lot of resources, so I was really actively searching for community and support to make sense of who I was [and what I could do about my identity.] I was really fortunate to have found a great support group within my high school that was kind of an underground support group, and through that I found out about this program happening out of UC Santa Barbara where they were doing youth activism summer camp kind of stuff for LGBTQ young people. So that was my entryway into social justice work, and that's where I learned how to organize, how to, you know, stage protests and knowing my rights as a student activist, and that's where I learned about social justice activism and writers who wrote about social justice, like Audre Lorde. So that was my entryway into understanding social justice, is through the frame of my being queer and learning from queer trans activists, also young people, and that's also where I learned about the intersections of being queer and also being a person of color and all of the nuances of the different identities and the intersections of different types of marginalization and oppression and how often times they all come from the same root and source of, you know, patriarchy or white supremacy. So, you know, I'm throwing a lot of [?] here, but really at the end of it, for me social justice is about, you know, understanding that we're all in this struggle together, and in order for us to achieve equity and equality and justice that we need to have solidarity in this frame of social justice.Zach: And so I'm really curious, right? Let me talk to you a little bit about my perspective, it being singular and limited, right? So I don't believe this is the way it is. This has been, like, my perception as I look--a cishet black man, Christian black man, looking across this, like, D&I space, right? Like, I'm seeing, like, different camps and groups, right? So I see this group that is largely white and who--like, they're invited to a lot of the fancy things, but they're not necessarily credentialed other than being in a certain social strata, but they're not really credentialed in any type of lived experience, nor are they credentialed in any specific level of education, but they're credentialed in, like, certain experiences from, like, again, just being in certain spaces, right, that are afforded to them because of their class and race. I then see another group of people that are very much so, like, activists. Like, they're on the street. If they're using social media, it's to mobilize something tangible. It's to affect a change in some type of grassroots community level. And then I see, like, another group that is kind of--like, they're in the corporate space and they're doing a few things, but they're not necessarily really, like, enacting anything beyond whatever the company needs them to do to kind of mitigate litigious risk, but I think--I'm kind of seeing, like, tensions against each of these groups. I'm curious about, like, your perspective, considering your social activist background and the work you do today. Do you see similar camps in the space, and, like, if not, what are you seeing? Do you think I'm oversimplifying kind of, like, the various camps and groups, or, like, what's your perspective on that?Michelle: I don't think you're oversimplifying per se, 'cause I do see what you're saying. I hear you in terms of there being different--because identities [are?] also a different approach to doing diversity and inclusion work inside the workplace. I think--a couple things that I want to clarify in terms of my beliefs is that I don't think anyone can truly call themselves a D&I expert. I certainly don't call myself a D&I expert, because I believe fundamentally diversity and inclusion is about lived experiences, so it's all about how we make sense of our lived experiences in relation to the systems that we inhabit, so I think everybody's an expert in their own lived experience, and I can't ever claim that I'm an expert in your life, right? So I think that's one belief that I have, that we all are experts in our owned lived experiences. And then another belief that I have is that, you know, social justice activism isn't just about being out in the street and marching and protesting. You know, there's a lot of activism happening inside of workplaces today as well through corporate activism, but also just daily acts of survival for a lot of folks, especially black and brown people, underrepresented people of color and trans and queer people inside workplaces. I think what they're doing, just by mere survival and speaking up when they can, is an act of activism. I think there is a greater sense of responsibility that I'd love for D&I professionals to have, whether they're inside or outside of the workplaces, in really making sense of how change happens and pushing the boundaries to serve the most marginalized people in the room. I think that's where my criticality comes in, when you start to talk about mostly white--I think I've seen a lot of white women take up the role of head of D&I. That's where I start to question whether, you know, are they understanding the positionality of being a white person, doing this work inside workplaces, holding a position of power? And, you know, I start to question sort of how change is being [assisted?] inside companies while prioritizing the needs of the most marginalized people. So I do think that people without the social justice frame, as in--you know, I think the root of my education and the foundation of my social justice education that I've gotten from, you know, activists who were organizers at the community level, what they've taught me is that in order for us to enact change, we need community, we need solidarity, and we need to approach everything through the lens of centering the most marginalized people and their needs, 'cause then everybody in-between and all of us will rise together. So that is sort of my approach when it comes to education or policies, whatever organizational design we're talking about. If we can center the most marginalized people, then everybody else will benefit. So that's the social justice framing that I use to approach all of my work, but I think I see some D&I people in the corporate space doing D&I work as if this is a new discipline that's not tied to social justice at all, right? That this is--in a vacuum, this is just about recruiting the most, you know, diverse set of candidates, that it's about retaining those people once they get there, but it's sort of in a vacuum without the understanding of systemic issues and history that has fueled D&I to exist in the first place. I think that's my biggest sort of criticism about how D&I gets done in the corporate space today.Zach: And I get that, right? It resonates with me, which is why I was so excited, because I really enjoyed--like, I've read some of your written work, and of course I follow you on social media. I love what Awaken is doing, right? And really, based on what you're sharing, I'm curious, how does that translate into the work that Awaken does? Because everything you're saying, I'm hearing it, right? But I guess I'm trying to understand--how does that effectively translate in majority-white spaces in the work that--and I'm making an assumption that the spaces that you engage are largely white. If they're not correct me, but from what I'm looking at it seems like the spaces are largely white, and it seems to be that when I talk to other D&I professionals, the subtext of a lot of the work, and even some of the, like, backhanded critique that I've received--because I'm often times received as "Well, you're passionate, but you're not really credentialed, right?" Like, "You're a person of color and you have a certain lived experience, but, you know, you don't have the same foundation that I may have as a quote-unquote D&I expert, so your point of view only goes so far," or it's only limited to the black experience. There seems to be, like, a subtext of "Let's not make people too uncomfortable," but the work that you're talking about in centering underrepresented or the most marginalized, that--I feel as if the argument could be made that you're automatically making other people uncomfortable. So again, just what does all of that look like as it translates into your work with Awaken?Michelle: Yeah, that's a great question. And I'm also so curious about these credentials, right? [both laughing] 'Cause I see these credential programs or certification programs. Like, what are you certifying people for? I'm so curious. I think there are absolutely some skills that we can learn, whether that's facilitation or curriculum development or policy design, that we can get better at, but in terms of understanding other people's lived experiences and the identities that folks hold and the complexities that come with that, I don't know if we can truly ever be credentialed enough to be, you know, discounting other people's experiences and opinions. So that's my perspective on it. And in terms of how our approach translates into our work, you know, I think we can talk about sort of the founding story, why we were created in the first place. So, you know, after having done organizing work when I was in high school and college, I decided to pursue a career in, you know, the for-profit space because I needed to make money, let's be real, and I was told actually by my activist mentors, who have gone onto pursuing social justice careers as career organizers and non-profit folks, that they were also experiencing very sort of similar harm, because even non-profits are predominantly led by white people, right? So I think the issues that we think are non-existent in progressive--quote-unquote "more progressive" spaces, they continue to exist, while folks are not making enough money to make ends meet. So--[straight up sfx]Michelle: [laughs] I love the sound effects. Knowing that and knowing my situation as a--you know, I grew up low-income, and I needed money to support my family. The advice I got from my mentors was "Hey, you can create change in certain spaces." They warned me about the toxic culture, but I went in sort of ignorant about what I was getting myself into. So I also really am grateful for my journey, having started my career in management consulting and in tech. I think I have experienced a lot of different things that I wasn't ready for but I'm grateful for nonetheless. But when I entered in those spaces, I was exposed to and I searched for D&I spaces, right? Because I thought that that was what I knew to be social justice work. So when I joined an employee resource group, I was, you know, disappointed at the level of conversations that were being had around what it means to be inclusive, what it means to be a diverse place, and I was surprised and disappointed and disillusioned by what companies were talking about as D&I was quite surface-level and marketing-oriented rather than real actionable behavioral change or cultural change that were being modeled by leaders of the company. So, you know, I was going through different workshops and trainings and just kept feeling like I was not seeing the level of conversations that actually needed to take place in these spaces, and it felt really safe. It felt safe. It felt white-washed. It felt diluted. As, you know, somebody who was just sitting in the room and constantly challenging the facilitator, I felt like I was doing all of the work. [Zach laughs] And after the [?] is over, you know, unfortunately the burden of re-educating other people who went through the workshop who now thinks that they are quote-unquote "woke" or who say that they checked the box, right? "Okay, we went through this unconscious bias training, so now we're good. Now I'm back to being a progressive person who cares about this issue." [Zach laughs] You know, [it was?] a challenge to really think differently, but the burden of their action, their unchanging behavior, their unawareness, and they're now feeling like they know what they're talking about, falls on the most marginalized people in the room, and I think that was a frustration that kept coming up for me as I was going through different types of trainings, whether that was done by external vendors or internal people, that people weren't pushing people enough, and I genuinely felt the need for a compassionate space for uncomfortable conversations, and that's our mission statement, to create a compassionate space for uncomfortable conversations to developing inclusive leaders and teams, and the way that we do that is by centering the needs of the most marginalized people, meaning we don't pat on ourselves on the back when a workshop goes well from the perspective of a bunch of white men saying that that workshop was great, you know? That may be true, but if, you know, the one black person in the room says that that workshop wasn't good while a bunch of white people say that the workshop was great, we don't pat ourselves on the back for that, right? But if we can support the most marginalized people in the room, you know, in tech and also in many other spaces as predominantly black and brown folks, trans, queer, people of color, if they give us the stamp of approval, if they feel like they were seen and heard and lifted and that they didn't have to do all the work, that's success for us, right? So by designing our curriculum to speak truth to them and to, you know, have that frame of "Can we lessen the burden on people who are the most marginalized in these spaces by saying the things that they can't say because there are too many risks and repercussions that they fear?" That's our job, and I don't think enough D&I practitioners out there are taking that approach, because, you know, if they're internal, their job is at risk. I get that. So I think as a third-party, we coming in--we have a different level of risk that we get to take because we don't have that kind of repercussion that we need to worry about, besides not being able to come back to that place again.Zach: Right. And, I mean, at that point that, you know, they don't let you back, I mean, you already got the bag anyway, so... [cha-ching sfx] You know? Michelle: [laughs] Well, and usually we can come back, because we don't often take on one-off workshops. I think that approach is pretty harmful, and, you know, companies come to us and say, "Hey, we just want to do a one-day, like, [?]." We tend to say no to those engagements because we really believe in delivering impact and working with people who are genuinely interested in real change. So, you know, I think the mistake people make is thinking that meeting people where they're at needs to be done by diluting the message. I don't think that's true. You can meet people where they're at with compassion and criticality. So you don't have to coddle people, but I think you can be compacted and make your content accessible for folks that they understand and they can move along the journey while feeling and embracing some tension and discomfort that comes with challenging their beliefs.Zach: So it's funny, because you see, like, even in, like, our current political tone and tambor today from, like, mainstream media, it's still around, like, the idea of respectability and quote-unquote kindness, kind of pushing against this idea of, like, call-out culture or just, like, keeping it real, like, just saying how things are, and it's interesting, and I hear what you're saying about, like, coddling versus accessibility. Do you have an example of what it looks like to effectively call something for what it is while at the same time making it accessible for folks to actually grasp and understand. Like, I don't think there's enough work that you could do to cater to or mitigate against fragility, but I would love to hear, like, kind of what Awaken does and, like, what that looks like for you.Michelle: Mm-hmm. Hm, let me think of an example. I think that's a great question, and I'd love to be able to contextualize it just a little though with an example. I think--I don't know why this example keeps coming up in my head. I think it's because we're designing a curriculum right now around inclusive interviewing practices, and one of the common questions that comes up is this idea of not lowering the bar and hiring in this sort of notion of meritocracy, and I think, you know, one way to approach that is really sort of making the person who said that feel like they don't know what they're talking about and, you know, calling them racist and all of that... I think is one way. [both laugh] I think another way could be really helping unpack why meritocracy doesn't currently exist, even though that is an ideal that we can strive for together, and how people who are currently in companies today may not have been hired purely based on merit. Zach: And how do you prove that though?Michelle: How do you prove that?Zach: Yeah.Michelle: I think there's a lot of data that actually backs up the claim around how meritocracy doesn't exist. I mean, what we often talk about is that, you know, meritocracy is a concept that was created as a vision that we can all work toward, but we falsely believe that right now there is sort of meritocracy in a sense, but there's lots of data that shows that actually there's a lot of biases in the hiring process, whether it's from the referral stage or, you know, the interview stage or the deliberation stage. I think there's a lot of data that actually shows discrepancies in the ways that we make decisions, and I think, you know, calling that out specifically I think is really helpful. I think the harmful alternative of sort of diluting that fact of, you know, not having meritocracy is that I have sometimes heard, you know, folks explain that to people in a way that actually equates hiring people of color or women as lowering the bar and that being sort of the, you know, unfortunate short-term solution. Like, yeah, but we need to hire more people of color and women, so, you know, we want to make sure that we are getting that quota filled. So I think there's, like, a lot of weird ways of people explaining difficult concepts to make people feel comfortable, because the discomfort in this conversation is the fact that you may not have been hired based on your merit, right? I think that's the tension, is that if we debunk meritocracy, people who have these jobs in higher-paying positions, they are feeling attacked because they feel like they warrant--they didn't get to where they are purely based on merit, and recognizing that they've had privileges that weren't afforded to another demographic groups, I think that in and of itself is the discomfort, and I think a lot of folks have a hard time calling that out, because we're then directly sort of highlighting the fact this may be an awful position that they're in. And I think talking about privilege in general is something that's really difficult for people. It's not an easy topic for any of us to really grapple with, but I think if we can't have those tougher conversations where we are directly highlighting and shining light on the fact that, you know, there are--"Yes, we worked hard, and there are struggles that we didn't have to go through to get to where they are." I think if that conversation doesn't happen, it would be a huge miss.Zach: You know, Michelle, when you and I first spoke, you know--we do our thing, we try to get to know each other first, and then we do the episode. A little bit of background behind the scenes for y'all, but anyway, when you and I first spoke we talked about people of color and that term, right? And we had conversations about Living Corporate and how, you know, we don't really use the term "people of color," we say black and brown. And then you and I had a conversation about how you don't really consider, or you don't count, Asian-American or, like, that space, East Asian, in the "people of color" category. Can you talk to me a little bit more about that?Michelle: Yeah. I think that's a great question. So I think, just to clarify, I do count Asians as a part of the people of color community, but I think there's context that we need to put into place whenever we're using the term. So I think the term people of color is a useful term when we're talking specifically about non-white people in the context of talking about white supremacy and how that impacts all people who are not white who experience racism and other forms of oppression because of their race. Where I don't feel comfortable using the term people of color is when we're discussing specific issues that impact black and brown communities. For example, when we're talking about police brutality or the murders of black trans women, I think it's really important for us to be specific about who we're talking about, because as an East Asian person, I don't have the same type of fear or risk when I'm around police. I think that is really important for us to specify, and I think that understanding around how there are very specific forms of racism, like anti-black racism. I think that clarity is so needed in having this conversation in a more effective way, and also for, you know, Asian-American folks to be able to show up in solidarity with folks who are experiencing very specific forms of marginalization. Zach: I just... you know, one sound we don't have on the soundboard is, like, finger snaps. [snapping fingers] But I'ma put these in there. Yeah, I love it. And it's interesting because, you know, we're moving at the speed of the Internet when it comes to a lot of this stuff, right? And certain things become trendy or become--I don't know. They kind of just catch fire, and I think the term people of color, it has a place, and I've seen it be used interchangably when people are just talking about black folk, right? It's like, "Why are we using that term right now when--" If we're really talking about something targeted for black Americans, if we're talking about something that's targeted for Latinx trans Americans--these groups, as niche or as just unique or small as they may seem to you, these represent actual human beings. So I think it's great that we're using them, but sometimes for me--it sometimes almost gets used as, like, a catch-all, and you end up erasing a lot of identities and experiences and points of view.Michelle: Totally, and I think if we can't be specific about the actual issue, then how can we solution around it, right? If we can't name what the actual issue is? It's not police brutality against all people of color, right? It's [?] against black and brown people specifically, you know? People who are seen as a quote-unquote "threat" to cops. I think it's really important for us to get specific around that so that we can solution around it, because it wouldn't make sense for us to do--you know, to solve for all people of color experiencing police brutality because that's not true. I think, you know, when we talk about black maternal [debts?], that's not happening to Asian-Americans that it's happening to black folks who are giving birth. So, you know, I think specificity is important for solutioning the right outcomes, and also, like you said, it doesn't erase people's experiences. I think tech is starting to incorporate more of the term around underrepresented POC, because, you know, Asian-Americans are overrepresented in many tech companies, but, you know, Asian-American also, similar to POC, is a very broad terminology, so I'd love to be able to see some dis-aggregated terms that we can use to also talk about underrepresented Asian-Americans. But yeah, I think specific language is always helpful in most cases, and I think there's also purpose to the term people of color when we can really mobilize and build a coalition across all people of color.Zach: I think it's just so interesting. I do think a function of white supremacy is, like, keeping things as surface as possible so that--because the more surface you can be, like, to your point, the less specific and targeted you can be in your solutioning, and if you're not targeting your solutioning, then you're not really gonna be able to affect true change. 'Cause, you know, and the last thing about this in terms of, like, just keeping things general and grouping people all together is, like--I know that in Europe there's a term that's called... it's black--it's like people of color to the max, right? So it's called "BAM," black, Asian, and Middle-Eastern. Like, what is that? Michelle, like, that's--that is nuts. You can't--huh? Like, when someone told me that--like, I just learned about this maybe, I don't know, like, a couple months ago. Like, a colleague told me, and I said, "How is that possible?" Like, those are thousands of identities and experiences and cultures and languages and histories. Like, how are you just going to just lump--so you're just gonna take all the non-white people and put 'em in one big cluster? Huh? Considering the history of, like, colonialism and, like--oh, my gosh. Like, that's nuts. You can't do that. And so, anyway... okay, okay, so from this conversation, what I'm hearing, I don't think that we always give, like, members of the majority enough credit in their ability to have an honest conversation when it's framed effectively, right? I think a lot of times it's kind of like, "Well, we don't want to bring that up because then that makes people uncomfortable," or "We don't want to bring that up because then they shut off," and it's like... eh. I mean, yes, people are fragile, but, like, come on. We've got to be able to have some type of--some level of authentic conversation around something. So that's--Michelle: Yeah. I wouldn't go as far as giving them credit. [both laughing] You know? I think there is a reason why--you know, why people are hesitant to have that conversation. I think it's because of the backlash. It's because of the fragility and it's because of [?] and also frankly the repercussions that people face. So I think while we sort of finesse the way that we deliver certain messages without losing the criticality but also having compassion and being accessible, what we also need to be doing is building the resiliency on the part of the dominant or the privileged group so that we can receive that information and check their fragility or check their defensiveness, and I think that education needs to be more prioritized than the other stuff.Zach: I agree, and thank you. Thank you for pushing back. [laughing] I do think there's a low level of fluency and stamina, right, when it comes to these conversations, and it's interesting because I just read an article, and it was published on Salon, and it was called "Diversity is for white people: the big lie behind a well-intended word." Have you read that yet?Michelle: I have not.Zach: Yo, I'ma send this to you. But it's just interesting because it's really this conversation in a really tactful rant form just around, like, how D&I is often phrased today, and it's, like, phrased with, like, white comfort in mind as opposed to the perspective and experiences of the marginalized in mind, and so I just find that very interesting. Okay, so look, you're the first East Asian-American person that we've had on the show, and so first of all, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to you. [air horns sfx] You know, shout-out to you for that and just being here, you know? [coin sfx] Michelle: Thank you for having me. I'm honored.Zach: Nah, I'm honored. I mean, I'm excited. I think there's this--like, despite civil rights history and all of the work especially done, like, within California, L.A., Oakland, in the '60s, and of course, like, during the era of the Black Panthers, there's this stereotype that Asian-Americans don't really care about social justice. Like, have you heard this before, and, like, why do you think that that is?Michelle: Yeah. Yes, I have heard that before, and I continue to hear it quite often. I think something that I hear when I meet people for the first time and I talk about what I do and we get to know each other a bit better, a weird sort of form of compliment or they think it's a compliment that they pay me is this fact that, you know, I'm one of the unique ones, right? Like, "Oh, wow. I've never met another Asian person who is like you," or "I'm so glad you're doing this work, because we need more Asian people doing this," and I have mixed emotions about that, because while I appreciate the acknowledgement of the work, I think that there's also this continuing erasure of the historical work that different Asian-American activists have done, whether that's the labor movement that was led by Filipino activists or folks marching [?] or even current activists working as prison abolistionists who are Asian-American racial justice organizer or disability justice organizers like [?], queer trans [?] activists. I think there's a lot of folks who are doing really radical work who continually get erased, so it leaves sort of a bitter taste in my mouth when I hear that because I think that with that simple sentiment we're erasing so much of history and current work that's being done. I also think that some of that comment is valid in that, you know, I do see a lot more work that can be done on the part of Asian-Americans specifically. You know, East Asians in tech is sort of the reputation that I hear about where people can be more active in doing D&I work or social justice work, and I think there's a real sort of lack of awareness or even the sense of solidarity amongst Asian-Americans in what their place is, like, what our place is in this conversation around social justice activism. So I think it's a complex topic. I do think that we can do more. I think all groups can do more, and I think there's a serious lack of education around Asian-American history and sort of--even the current facts around, you know, the struggles that Asian-Americans are going through, that if more Asians knew about that and if more Asian folks found commonality between our oppression and other marginalized communities' depression that we may be able to build a coalition to do more amazing work.Zach: One, thank you for--that's a really thoughtful answer. All of your answers have been very thoughtful. It's almost like you're very... awake. [haha sfx] What's really interesting, to your point around just, like, history, is as much as the Black Panthers--I really think that the way that we think about--and when I say we, I mean just, like, Americans, right? Like, the way that Americans categorize and think about the Black Panthers has to be, like, some of the most effective example of American government propaganda, right? Like, we think of Black Panthers as the equivalent of the KKK, like, the black equivalent, like they're these terrorists and that it's just full of these angry black people, and we don't think about the fact that Richard Aoki was--he was a founding member of the Black Panthers, right? Asian-American. And he's not, like, this ancient figure. Like, he passed away in 2009, but we don't really talk about that, and I'm really curious as to--'cause, like, the Black Panther Party, and, like--not the new Black Panther Party, but the initial, original Black Panther Party was not, like, hundreds of years ago, and so it's just so interesting how we are uneducated, right? We're uneducated just on civil rights history, and we're certainly--I don't remember in high school or in college hearing anything about Asian-American participation or engagement in the civil rights movement. That was not anything that I remember being taught, nor do I remember that being something that was, like, readily available for me to learn, you know?Michelle: Right. And I think that lack of education is within the Asian-American community itself, right? I think I feel like sometimes I know more about, you know, black history than my own sort of Asian-American history here in the U.S., and I'm an immigrant, so I think I grew up with a different set of history lessons. So there's a lot of catching up for me to do as well, and I think that the--I mean, even in the school system, I'm sure you've been talking to your guests around the lack of real education around what really happened in history too, right? Not just for Asian-Americans, but for, you know, black Americans and, you know, Latinx Americans. I think there's a lot of, you know, untrue history that's being taught to our youth, which is problem #1, and I also think there's a lot of internalized racism and oppression that exists in the Asian-American community, and there's a lot of complex topics that I don't know if we have time to get into, but things like the--Zach: Well, pick one. Let's go. I have time.Michelle: You know, the myth of Asians being closer to white people and the sort of model minority myth, and that's a very prevalent stereotype, and I think there's a lot of interrogating that we need to do when we talk about those things around, "Well, who were the initial group of Asian-Americans that were allowed to come to the country? What were the ramifications of that? What are some of the current statistics that we can talk about, even in the workplace, around Asian-Americans being the least likely group to advance to senior leadership positions even though they are overrepresented in industries like tech and, you know, [?] in an analyst position?" "How does that impact the continuing stereotypes and narratives around Asian-Americans?" Being good at math, and, you know, I think there's a lot of complex, intertwined stories that we tell about our people, Asian-Americans, and also we're combining an entire continent when talking about Asian-Americans as this monolith of a people when if we were to dis-aggregate that data, there's actually a ton of lessons to be learned around who's actually marginalized within the Asian-American community, right? I recently learned that 1 in 7--I think that's the stat--1 in 7 Asian-Americans are undocumented, and they're the fastest-growing population that's undocumented in the United States currently, but we don't hear about that, right? We don't hear about that narrative, and I think the way that white supremacy works is this sort of untrue and erasing of different stories that make the people of color the collective question and also not able to work alongside each other, and I think that's the--the most difficult thing that I see in the sort of solidarity that we need to be able to move the needle on this work is that there's so much of a lack of education on everyone's part, including myself, that we need to do a lot of work to be able to, you know, truly practice that solidarity with each other.Zach: Man. You know, and, like, Michelle, you've been just casually dropping just bombs, like, this whole conversation, right? So I just gotta give you at least one. [Flex bomb sfx] 'Cause it's been ridiculous. But one thing you said--and it brought something back to my memory. So I'm not gonna say the consulting firm. If y'all want to look on my LinkedIn, y'all can make a guess as to where this was. It's not the one that I'm at right now, but I'll never forget, Michelle, I was at a team dinner--this was some years ago--and we were talking about... so, you know, I'm at the table, and then there's senior leaders, and then there's, like, super senior leaders, and there's me, and I was, like, a junior-level person at this point in time, right? This was, like, five or six years ago. And so I'm a pretty junior person, and there's somebody in there talking about this one particular employee, and they said, "Oh, Insert Name Here is the perfect little Asian. He just does exactly what I tell him to do. He does his work and then he goes home." And I remember I was just eating my dinner--I literally stopped, I looked at the person who said it and was like, "Oh, my God. I can't believe you just said that." And she looked at me, and then you could tell that she, like, quickly averted her eyes and was kind of, like, "Oop--" You know, like, she got caught, but just that idea of this subservient just worker bee that just does whatever I tell them to do... that just stuck with me forever. I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, that's not--I'm still flabbergasted by that, as you can tell, and I told my coach. I said, "Hey, this is not okay," right? I said, "This is what happened." And they were like, "Oh, well, you shouldn't have heard that." I was like, "No, no, no. It's not about me shouldn't have hearing it. Like, they shouldn't have said that, but beyond them saying it, they shouldn't believe that." So yeah, I just wanted to share that. Like, I'll never forget me hearing that. And, like, they were talking about the person like they were a--you know, like a resource, and, you know, they call talent that in consulting, resources, but in a genuine, like, piece of property [way], right? And it makes you just question, like, "Well, damn, okay. You felt comfortable enough to say this at a team dinner." And it was a white woman, by the way. But, like, you felt comfortable enough saying this in, like, a mixed group at a team dinner. Like, God forbid, what are you saying about me, what are you saying about other people, what are you saying about this person in, like, more private settings, you know what I mean?Michelle: Right. Well, the scary thing though is that sometimes that kind of trope or narrative is almost seen as a compliment, as if we should be celebrating that. "Well, you know, why is it so bad for us to say Asians are good workers or Asians are good at following orders?" And what have you. I think sometimes that trope gets weaponized to divide the people of color community even further, which is--you know, I think we saw that divide also in the recent affirmative action case, right, where Asian-Americans--there were arguments on both sides around how Asians are being discriminated against for getting good grades and all of that kind of unfortunate, annoying [?], but that's a conversation for another time.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And to be specific for our listeners who may not be abreast, recently that was the affirmative action case that went before Harvard, correct?Michelle: Correct.Zach: Yeah, and so it was interesting--so, like my perspective, as I was kind of, like, reading and understanding it was, like, some people were saying--so I'm on this app called Fishbowl... this is not an ad, but Fishbowl is, like, this anonymous posting app for consultants and other, like, different industry professionals, and people on there were talking about the case, and so basically the commentary was, "Yeah, you're excluding us and you're letting in these black and brown people who aren't smart enough to get in, but you're trying to fill in these racial quotas." And I was like, "Wow." I don't think that that's the point, and I think the data showed that the people who are the most advantaged by this current system of applications and acceptances were legacy students, right? It was people that--but again, like, to your point, then you'd see people arguing, then you'd see black and brown people arguing with Asian-Americans about, you know, "Well, we deserve to be here--" Again, I think that's--white supremacy is winning again when we start having those types of... when it starts devolving in that way, you know what I mean?Michelle: Right, exactly. And I think it also comes from the fact that a lot of people don't understand the point of affirmative action and why it got started in the first place. It's almost like people think that we're just trying to fill quotas or, you know, have diversity for the sake of diversity, but I think this is where the concept of D&I falls short 'cause we're not actually ever talking about justice and correcting past mistakes or historical oppression. So I think there's a lot of conversations that we need to have that we're not having right now around this concept of justice and sort of historical wrong-doings being corrected with some type of mechanism, and I think similar conversations, you know, are being had in tech and other industries where they're focused on quote-unquote "diversity recruiting" where folks are talking about that concept of, you know, lowering the bar for the sake of diversity and, like, all of that stuff I feel like are interconnected and they're just happening in different spheres, and I think for me it's always coming back to the lack of basic communication around history and social justice concepts and people not understanding how all of these struggles are connected. I think there's just a lot of room for improvement in how we're talking about these issues.Zach: You know, we gotta have you back to talk about the connection--like, to really talk about justice in diversity, equity and inclusion work, because, like, I have all these questions, but I want to respect your time. [both laugh] So let's do this. First of all, let's make sure we have you back. We definitely consider you a friend of the pod.Michelle: Thank you.Zach: Yeah, no, straight up. So thank you for being here with us today. Now, look, y'all--now, I don't know what else y'all want from me. I'm talking to the audience now. You know, look, we come at y'all, we bring y'all some amazing guests, you know, we're having these really dope conversations. I mean, [what more do you want from me? sfx] what more do you want? Like, I'm not even trying to martyr myself. I'm just saying, like, "What do you want?" And when I say me, I mean Living Corporate. Like, you see this guest. Michelle Kim is a beast. Like, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. Now, look, before we get out of here though, Michelle, I have just a couple more questions. First of all, where can people learn more about Awaken?Michelle: You can learn more about Awaken at our website, www.visionawaken.com. You can also follow on Twitter @AwakenCo and our blog. Please check out our blog on Medium, www.medium.com/Awaken-blog. I'm all on Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn. You can follow me. I also have an Instagram. So all of the social media platforms there's gonna be me or Awaken, so please follow us and subscribe to our newsletter.Zach: All right, y'all. Now, look, she said all the stuff. Mm-mm, hold on, 'cause you're probably driving or you're doing something, you know? You're in your car or maybe you're typing something up on your phone, but what I really need y'all to do is I need you to stop... [record scratch sfx] and check out the links in the show notes, okay? Make sure y'all hit up all those things. I want y'all clicking on them links like [blatblatblatblat sfx]. You know, check them out, okay? We'll make sure we have everything right there for you. Now, Michelle, any shout-outs or parting words before you get out of here?Michelle: Well, I think we're living in a really interesting time right now. There's a lot going on in so many different communities and our society, so my shout-out is to everyone who is doing their best to survive and to thrive to take care of themselves, to stay vigiliant, to educate themselves, and to be in community with people that care about you. I think that's so important in this climate. One last shout-out I want to give is to this new initiative that I'm a part of called Build Tech We Trust. It's a coalition of different CEOs and tech leaders who have come together to say enough is enough around white supremacy spreading online on social media platforms and other tech platforms. It was founded by Y-Vonne Hutchinson and Karla Monterroso of Code2040, and check out our work. We're doing some really important work to build coalition around this issue of radicalization happening on tech platforms. So Build Tech We Trust, and I can send you the URL so you can link it.Zach: Please do. Y'all, this has been--first of all, Michelle, again, thank you. Great conversation. We look forward to having you back, because we will be having you back. If you would like to come back--it's not a directive, you have agency. Michelle: [laughing] Of course. I'd love to. I'd be honored.Zach: Okay, super cool. Listen, y'all. This has been the Living Corporate podcast. You know, make sure you check us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then--now, the websites. Now, look, y'all hear me rattle off all these websites every time - livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.net, right? Livingcorporate.us I think we even have. We have every livingcorporate, Michelle, except livingcorporate.com, but we do have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, if you have any questions or any feedback for the show, just hit us up. We're at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Hit us up on DM. All of our DMs are wide open for your convenience. That's right. We take on the emotional labor of keeping our DMs open so that you can reach out to us, okay? So you hit us up and you let us know if you need anything. If there's anything else, just Google us, right? Type in Living Corporate on your browser. We're gonna pop up. We're on all the different streaming mediums. Make sure to tell your momma about Living Corporate, your cousin, or your weird uncle, or your racist uncle at Thanksgiving. So you make sure you--come on, shoot the link over. We got all kinds of stuff on there, so we out here, okay? What else? I think that's it. Shout-out to Aaron [thank you], shout-out to all the listeners, and God bless y'all. Or, you know what I'm saying, bless y'all, 'cause I'm not trying to offend anybody, but bless y'all, okay? And what else? I think that's it. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Michelle Kim, founder, educator, activist, public speaker, and of course CEO of Awaken. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of speaking with storyteller and strategist Deidre Wright about effectively building a leadership profile. Deidre shares what her leadership journey is looking like so far and talks about how staying true to her values helped her become the leader she is today. She also offers her thoughts about what some black and brown folks are doing that could be hindering them in their leadership development journey.Connect with Deidre on LinkedIn, Twitter, or Instagram!Check out her website!Visit Living-Corporate.com!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, you know what we do, okay? We come on the show and we have real talk about real things. These real things are actually fairly benign on their face, right? But we take these fairly real topics, and they're real, or rather we make them real, 'cause we're centering black and brown experiences. So today we're talking about building a leadership profile. Now, in building a leadership profile--you know what? I'm not even gonna do that. I'm just gonna go ahead and get into it with our guest, Deidre Wright.Deidre: Yes, that's right. [laughs] Hi.Zach: All right, come on now. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?Deidre: [laughing] I'm good, Zach. Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here. I've lived a corporate life for most of my career, so it's exciting to talk to you.Zach: No, thank you very much. I'm excited to have you on the show. And see, you know what I did is--those are bars, Deidre. So I said, "Deidre Wright," and you said, "That's right." See, I knew--Deidre: [laughs]Zach: Right? So I'm like--anyway, it's wordplay is all I'm saying. Okay, so for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Deidre: Yeah. So everyone, I'm Deidre Wright. I'm a Bay Area native, and I call myself a storyteller and a strategist because I worked across industries, but mostly what I do is empower clients to effectively tell their stories and create strategies, execute goals, and so I say this because I worked in public health, marketing, and risk management, and with all of those fields I can kind of used that skill set and my--that's my passion. So I graduated from Spelman College with a sociology and anthropology degree with the goal to make the world a better place. Graduated during the recession. It was a little challenging, but I was able to help kind of do that. And so I worked for Kaiser Permanente in public health research, working on a study, learning why girls start childhood puberty earlier. So why puberty is starting earlier and long-term [who?] gets breast cancer, and communicating findings with the public, and then I transitioned to marketing because I found that without a clear call to action people don't really make changes. So I was doing internal marketing for McKesson, helping employees sell their services, and then I landed on insurance, really at first advising [?] companies on their risk management and how to improve that for their companies and later now be, you know, an award-winning director of diversity and inclusion helping companies in insurance promote and advance diversity and inclusion.Zach: You know what? You just had so many just Flex bomb moments in there. First of all, you talked about the fact that you graduated from Spelman. Shout-out to all the Spelmanites, the Spelman Women. Deidre: Woo-woo!Zach: Come on, now. Don't--like, let's not play. [ow sfx] Okay? We gotta shout y'all out. [laughs] And then you had some big names in there. McKesson, Kaiser Permanente. That's incredible. So, you know, you talked about--you're talking a little about just kind of your journey. Again, you named some huge brands in there. I'm looking at your profile, and I'm just gonna look at, like, just the last year and a half, okay? So 2018 you got the NAAIA Emerging Leaders co-chair, your 2018 Dive In Festival San Francisco co-chair, and then you were the 2018 Water Street Club Insurance Rising Star and then the 2019 Insurance Careers Month Emerging Leader. Okay? And that's just, again, the last year and change, but it's relevant because like I said, today we're talking about building your leadership profile. I have a theory, right? And I could be--I could be crazy, 'cause I'm--I'm just looking at the field, Deidre. I don't--you know, I'm not a sociologist or any type of scientist. I'm just kind of looking at the space, right? And I have a theory that black and brown folks in corporate America spend a lot of time trying to make sure that we're just strong individual contributors because, you know, we're conditioned and taught to just do that and for a lot of us, like, the first generation of our families being in corporate America, right? But I believe as time continues forward and the millennial workforce increases and, like, its representation increases within the workplace and we age up in the workplace that there's gonna be a continued demand and opportunity for us to continue to really take on leadership positions. So can you talk a little bit about your journey in becoming a leader and, like, what has that looked like for you?Deidre: Yes, mm-hmm. And I'll have to have a little bit more Flex bomb. So, like I said, I work in the risk management and insurance field, but using my platform and my leader standpoint I've done a lot of fun things, including speaking at events where Barack Obama, Colin Powell, and America [Ferrera?] were on the line-up. Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa--Deidre: Yeah. [laughs, record scratch sfx]Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Let me just pause you so I can do this. [Flex bomb sfx] Okay, continue.Deidre: Thank you. Then having viral LinkedIn, you know, posts, where I have one that has 23,000 views and the other one has 37,000 views, and I say this because no matter what industry or skill set, you can be a leader and use your influence to call attention to the cause that you care about. So what's my leadership journey looking like? I guess no matter what I always focus on setting goals, investing in myself, and taking strategic risks. And, you know, you heard my kind of bio. I've done a lot of different things in different fields, but I always stay true to my values, which was, you know, being strategic and storytelling. And so I say that because what happened was I was, like I said, a contractor for McKesson, and so my contract ended and I had my son the month afterwards. So my vision was take a couple months off, go back to McKesson, do my thing, but they had laid off a bunch of marketing people so I had no job to go back to, and that's when I was like, "Okay, I have a baby. I need to make money. Let me figure this out," and so that's when I kind of got back to my values and my goals, and I was like, "Okay, let me check out insurance and risk management--my mom was in the field, she is doing great--and really think, like, what do I want out of a career and start attacking that." So I started with informational interviews with leaders in the space, because I want to say, like, if you have the secret sauce, I want that recipe, and figuring that out for me. And then taking strategic risks to start and break in myself in the industry of taking jobs, and then once I got the position making the position my own and being a thought leader. The key thing to being a leader I would say that everyone is--figure out your craft and promote it on different channels to help people, whether it's, like, Living Corporate, you know, having this experience and teach people skills, but mostly make strategic moves to always figure out how to promote your expertise and level up by seeing or asking, "What experience in my career is gonna give me the highest ROI for career time?" So if I'm spending three years of my time on this project or 30 minutes speaking on a stage, what is the ROI for this? And that's kind of helped me navigate these different changes in marketing to, you know, insurance, being a broker, from a broker to diversity and inclusion. Having those key processes of assessing goals, being strategic, and, you know, seeing what's worth my time or not.Zach: Let's take a step back though, right? So everything you're saying, 100%. I get it. It makes sense to me. But what would you say to the person who's like, "Look, I don't really know what my focus or passion is. I'm just here. I'm just happy to be here." Like, what advice would you give to that person?Deidre: I would tell them to shift their mindset. Just being happy to be here is--I mean, what are you living a life of, scarcity or abundance? Like, yes, I understand--like I told you, I had a baby and no money. I was thinking like, "Dang," but I had to--I don't know if it was just my maternal instincts or just my hustle, I mean, I was like, "I've got to figure out how to make this work," and so I would just say level up your mindset and think about "Okay, if I'm here, yeah, I'm happy for the situation, but what do I want to do with it? Where do I want to be in three years? How much money do I want to make then? What kind of impact do I want to leave on this platform?" For example, when I was a broker, I always wanted to empower my clients and, like--let me be clear on what I mean by risk management. My clients were Airbnb and Lyft and Starbucks and UPS. Like, big, you know, global clients, and I say that because just like you and me, we want to protect ourselves, [and] we also want to reach goals. And so I would say manage your career like you're managing your risk in yourself and think about, "Okay, if I invest X amount of time in this place, what's the return gonna be for me in reaching my goals?" So I guess I would just say change your mindset to just be more than just happy to be there. Like, think "How am I gonna make this work to be happy and earn my worth?"Zach: I love that. You're absolutely right. You know, it's scary though, and I say this as someone who--I'm trying to put myself in, like, the other person's shoes, 'cause you and I, we vibe on that level because we both are like, "Look, I gotta go get it." I don't have any kids yet, but--[both laugh]--but I get it, right? I am married. It's like, "Okay, look, I gotta--" Like, this can't stop. Like, I gotta keep going, right? At the same time, I ask myself, "Okay, so for the folks who are not necessarily naturally as industrious," right, like, what are some of the, like, just kind of starting steps? And I hear you, right? What I'm hearing is it's about identifying "Okay, what do I want the next 18 months to look like? What do I want the next three years to look like?" And then, like, thinking with the end in mind, then kind of working backwards from there and then asking yourself and kind of asking perhaps a scary question of "Okay, well, then is what I'm doing getting me to that point? Yes or no?"Deidre: Mm-hmm.Zach: Okay. No, that's great. So, you know, it's interesting, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned in becoming a leader? And then if I could kind of take a step, like, a little bit below that, as you've been continuing to grow and navigate these spaces, what are things that you see, you know, our black and brown folks doing out there that can hinder them in their leadership development journey?Deidre: Yes. What I learned as a leader--which, it's funny, you know? It's probably like you, Zach. It's like you just do your job and you do it well, and I say that because I consider myself, like, a mentor or a helper, and it's great that I'm a leader, and I'll say that. You know, I take that role, but I just think ultimately it's figuring out what your purpose is and how you can live to that higher calling, but, you know, the real thing is 1. invest in yourself, whether that is taking the time to do the work--for example, like, when I was a broker, I would spend time, hours, reading insurance policies. Now, I don't know, Zach, if that's what you do for fun, but most people don't do that. But I was taking the time so I knew what the heck I was talking about, and I had that confidence in front of my client when I am the only millennial, only black person, only woman in the room. And so you've gotta take time to invest yourself. You know, I had an executive coach who was helping me, you know, through the program and to really figure out what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do and when I was investing that time. Going to conferences, meeting people, networking. You have to do these things if you want to get far, and for us, you know, black and brown people, two things I would kind of say is 1. be strategic and understand no one is gonna invest time in you as much as you. So if you're waiting for your company to tap you on the shoulder saying, "I know you're gonna be a leader," yeah, that might happen passively, but only you can really give all of your effort into doing that. And then two, part of my job is that I organize events and plan them for the industry to I guess really just bond people and give them tools and resources for D&I through events and stuff. So for example, I'm planning a national diversity and inclusion conference that's coming up, and I say that because I look for speakers. I want speakers. I also judge a national woman in insurance award, [?], and so I assess and judge women leaders and their profiles to see who are worthy of these awards. Now, rarely do I see at our events people volunteering who are people of color or whoever to be speakers at events from a technical standpoint, you know? And rarely do I see people nominate themselves for awards. So the biggest thing is advocate for yourself and put yourself out there, because if you don't do that, then who will? So I think that's the biggest missed opportunity. Working hard's not enough. You've got to really advocate and promote your brand, because people want to help you. People want diverse leaders more than ever. I will tell you right now. Companies are investing in diversity and inclusion, and they want leaders. We just had a diversity survey, my company Business Insurance, studying diversity in our industry. We had over 800 people do it, and one fo the questions were what is the biggest barrier to increasing diversity in our industry, and for the second time around it was "we can't find minorities with the right skill set." And I don't necessarily believe that is my case. I just think it's perception. If people don't perceive there are leaders there, then they're not gonna tap you in for opportunities. So speak out and promote yourself to be that leader they see. Zach: No, 100%, and let me double-click on one thing you just said. I'm not gonna lie to you. What a huge pet peeve is, like, the whole "we don't have the pipeline, we don't see [them]." Like, so much of that is, like... if you just open your eyes, like, in today's era, right? So some of it is perception, how you present yourself, and there's a certain level of accountability that we have to take in terms of how we show up. At the same time--and I don't want to speak to insurance, 'cause that is a space that I'm not wholly familiar with, but I will speak to, like, technology, right? So okay, like, Facebook and other, like, larger technology firms will say, "Well, we have this diversity problem because we don't really have the pipeline," but the reality is there are tons of pockets of people, like Black Girls Who Code, Black Code Collective. There's all types of, like, groups out there and pockets, and there's black folks at these PWIs and HBCUs. There's organizations out there that do have the talent. I think the challenge is that what I'm not seeing, like, across the board is, like, a truly, like, intersectional and inclusive talent sourcing strategy when it comes to actually identifying that talent and then making sure that those folks are actually represented in terms of what does it look like for you to go out to those schools or engage these different groups or partner with these various organizations. Like, if you look in the same places for this diverse talent, then yeah, you may not find it, but if you actually just kind of broaden your scope a bit you may actually find the folks you're looking for, you know?Deidre: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I truly believe it, and that's one of the things I help, you know, my clients with is figure out where do you find this diverse talent. And diversity means so many different things to so many different people, and I know all industries are different, but I will say for us it's typically--they go to the same colleges because they typically want someone with a risk management degree. Risk management degrees are very--you know, they're not that often you find them. There's only a certain amount of schools, and those schools are not necessarily diverse. And mind you, the majority of people that come into our industry don't have interest in insurance or a risk management background. Like, I had sociology, right? But I did my job really well. So I'm like, knowing the statistics that the majority of people come in without this, I'm like, "Why would you narrow the focus?" So I think the first thing is find transferrable skills, companies, you know, and then people, be open to other industries besides your own that could be promising, because insurance is a couple trillion dollar industry. There's really a lot of interesting things going on right now. There's InsureTech, which is infusing technology with insurance. There's all these new risks out there, like with Bitcoin, and, you know, you have, you know, a shared economy and all kinds of fun stuff. So it's a lot of great things. So whether you're a company, find people with transferrable skills. Go to professional organizations, whether it is, like, you know, Ascent, Prospanica, National Black [?], and find people with the skill sets who obviously are leaders in their space but might not be leaders in your space. Also, look and see where else people are at, because--I don't know, maybe technology is a better judge [?] of this, but I'm like, "Are companies really leveraging social media and new forms of communication to find people?" A lot of times no, so that's what you gotta do.Zach: No, straight up. In fact, let me just go ahead and [straight up sfx, both laugh]. Yeah, I agree. Straight up. Man, that's a wonderful soundbite. So you talk a lot about inclusion and diversity within the context of leadership, and these are my questions, right? Can you 1. explain why I&D is important to you and then practical ways you reinforce and you would encourage other leaders to reinforce inclusive behaviors?Deidre: Yes. Why does it matter to me? Straight up I will just say it's because [both laughing] I was working in the industry, and my [?] a generation, so I quote-unquote belong here. We're very--I would say the industry typically is a lot of second-generation or multi-generation people in the industry, but I didn't actually feel like I belonged because, like I said, I didn't really see many people who looked like me. So just having that self-awareness, I'm like--and I was complaining, and someone was like, "Deidre, stop complaining." Like, "Do something." I got really involved in diversity and inclusion work, whether it was from volunteering or being part of organizations. So that was kind of--I had skin in the game, and I had to be the change I wanted to see, and I spoke at a lot of events about that. That's actually how I got my job, because I was on stage speaking at this event for my current company, and the CEO saw me and was like, "Deidre, I like your ideas," and that's why I promote people. If you have great ideas and solutions, go and speak and do that so you can find the right opportunities to be poached for those opportunities. But what are practical and tactical ways to be more inclusive? I would say diversify your network to the point you said of poaching talent or finding talent, but also who you mentor and who mentors you. So think about this. Yes, it is really important to have a person of color as your mentor in this space, but also it's good to have people who don't look like you. I try to, as much as possible, find mentors or colleagues who have different backgrounds, whether it's from they were in the military or they're male or they're white or whatever, but just different people. They give me perspective on things, and I find that very, very helpful, and also feedback on what they're receiving from me and my brand. Also I would say as a leader, if you're a manager or just anybody on a team, learn people's learning styles and how they communicate and bring out the best in them, because not everyone's extroverted, so they're not always gonna communicate how they feel, but maybe they're better in smaller groups or maybe they're great with projects and running with things, but don't assume that your way of communicating and doing things are the best. But I would just ask people, like, "Hey, what's the best to bring out your best so that we can get your A game at the office and that we can make sure you're satisfied?" And then lastly is speak up and speak out. If you're in a place of privilege in any aspect, I would address things, whether at a meeting and a woman's trying to talk and you're a man and someone's interrupting her--call that out, you know? Like, "Hey," you know, "I think Sheena wants to talk," or if you're a person in corporate--like, for me it's like, "Hey, I've been getting a lot of opportunities. How do I make sure I teach other women of color, people who are underrepresented, how to get speaking engagements so that they can have--I can see more diversity on this stage when I'm at events and not be the only one?" So I would just say speak out, diversify your network, and learn people's learning styles.Zach: I love that. And you're absolutely right, like, in terms of diversifying your network. So what I've learned--what I've been learning in my career is to have--as a black man--to have some white men in my network, right? And, like, I love it because--so I'm not trying to brag on myself. I'm just saying I really do like, enjoy, building authentic relationships, and I'm not gonna put--I'm not gonna make the block too hot for my friend so I'm not gonna drop his name, but I have a very good friend. He's a dear friend of mine, and we met at work. White guy, and, you know, a fairly conservative background, and I would just say, like, across the board, like, fairly conservative white man, and at the same time he and I met because he saw that I was being treated inequitably on a project, and he advocated for me, and that's how we became friends, and we've been friends for years now through that. But what's interesting is as I kind of talk to him about challenges I'm having or, like, "Man, I don't know how I would handle this," and I'm thinking about, like, all of these fairly, like, referential ways to do something or just, I don't know, kind of--like I'm choosing certain binaries because of--I don't want to say classically conditioned, but the way that I've been raised, I just think "Well, this is the way to do things." He's coming at it from, like, a different perspective. He's coming at it from a perspective of a privileged white man. So he's like, "Well, Zach, you don't have to do that. Just do this," and it's like, "Oh, my gosh. I would never even think to try that," right? And so it's, like, opening your eyes a bit. Something else you said now. I know you talked about, like, in meetings, right, when you said, like, if there's a woman talking, you as a man saying, "Hey, you know, I think she has something to say." Like, "Please, if you could give it a listen." I would also challenge that, if you're a white woman in those positions and you have, like, a black man or a [?] of color, use that privilege too, Cassandra. Becky. Charlotte. You know, just help us out, please, because we need it as well. I think there's some intersectionality that should be considered--Karen. There's another name. I was just trying to think of some other names. Anyway, so as we continue forward, right, and we talk a little bit about, like, relationships and networking, can we talk about, like, coalition building? You kind of alluded to it already, but its role in developing a leadership profile. So you talked about building this network, but, like, what does it look like for you historically to build mutually beneficial relationships? And do you have any examples of when those relationships have come into play to benefit you?Deidre: Yeah, that's a great question. I would say I always wanted to make things mutually beneficial. I just come from a standpoint--I don't like moochers, and I don't want to be a moocher. I just--I just think that it's kind of tacky, honestly.Zach: It is tacky.Deidre: It just turns me off, and it's bad for my brain to be like, "She's always asking for something but not returning it." So I've always kind of been that way. I will say my trick is--and it's not even a trick, it's really just what I do--I always end a conversation, meeting or whatever, asking people how can I be of service to them, because 1. it helps me know, like, how I can actually help them, and 2. it makes me think of who in my network can also help them. So I've connected a lot of people for business opportunities, job opportunities, just personal opportunities through having this network. "Oh, you want A? I know someone over there who can connect you with that," or "You want this," and so I would just say ask the question. It doesn't cost you a thing, but you might make an impact in how--it's always come back to help me. Like, I've never had a situation where it hasn't. 1. Either I made a new friend or had goodwill or 2. people reached out to me--like, I get a lot of referrals for business, whether it's for my job or for speaking opportunities or just leadership opportunities. I got an award for I guess being myself and being helpful to people and always leveling them up. I find that I'm stronger when I have a stronger circle around me, so I'm always trying to find who those people are, so I build it by--[coin sfx, Deidre laughs]--by, you know, being out there and publicly speaking. A lot of people I meet through Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, you know, just the interwebs, because I put myself out there or I comment on what they're saying because it's compelling to me. And so there's different ways to have mutually beneficial relationships. I just think 1. you gotta be open to them, 2. you actually gotta follow up and do what you say you're gonna do, but when it comes to--like, I come from an abundance mindset. I don't ever think that it can't be more than one leader. It can't be more than one of us. So I think we all have to get out of the mindset of that "I can't help somebody else because I lose something." [and i oop sfx] You only have something to gain by helping somebody else out.Zach: Come on, now. I 100% agree. And you know what? And that's another point--you're absolutely right, like, about following up. Look, [both laugh] people send--Deidre: You know.Zach: I do know. Listen, look, I look at my little emails, and thank God--you know what? This is not an ad. Shout-out to y'all, Gmail, 'cause y'all do the whole thing. "You received this three days ago. Follow up?" That has helped me so much. I be in that inbox--I'm in that inbox like [bratbratbrat sfx]. I'm like--[both laugh].Deidre: Yeah, you're in there.Zach: I be following up. Like, "Hey, we had this conversation. I just wanted to circle back and make sure we're good." Deidre, you did that with me!Deidre: Yeah. [laughs]Zach: You gotta. Hey, you gotta do it. Life is crazy. Life is just so busy. It's important. Okay, so let's pivot a little bit. In your article "Why Strategic Companies Must Manage Diversity & Inclusion As A Business Risk"--it was recently published in Savoy Magazine--can we talk a little bit about the piece and what inspired that?Deidre: Yeah. So, you know, risk management is my background. It's always on my brain, whether it's from personal risk management to, like, company, and I say that because people think of risk always as a bad thing, but risk is--you know, based on the [?]--it talks about, you know, the possibility of a loss, no gain, or a gain. So you can have different levels of risk, and so with diversity and inclusion, it can--if you do it right, it can help you gain [?]. If you do it wrong, it can be harmful. And let's be clear, we see all of these things in the news, all of these headlines, and people are failing with diversity and inclusion, and I just want to help educate the consumer and companies and people about why this has to be a strategic risk and opportunity. So let's look at, you know, the news. So Papa John's, he's going over here saying the N word, you know, during conference calls, had to step down as a leader, and from that incident, you know, within a month their store sales fell 10%. You know, Dolce and Gabbana, they had a situation where they had a model, you know, who was Asian looking like she was eating, like, pizza with chopsticks, and, like, it was inappropriate, and then calling, like--and then what happened was they had to cancel a fashion show. Consumers were, like, destroying their products, and then their products were removed from different platforms in China. Like, Chinese magazines, Alibaba, whatever, and then another case is, you know, the Conrad Miami, a hotel out there, they discriminated--a manager discriminated against a woman. She asked to have Sundays off when she started the job because of her religious reasons. They ended up having to pay her punitive damages of $21 million, you know, and others for lost wages because she was fired as a retaliation for wanting to go to church, and she asked for tha ttime off. And so I say this because when it goes wrong, it costs companies money.Zach: You're 100% right, right? Like, you think about, like, Angry Orchard. So they just recently had a situation where they interrupted this couple trying to get married. This man was trying to propose to his girlfriend. They accused them of stealing merchandise and eventually kicked them out of there. So no, I'm 100% with you. So of course that then draws boycotts and all types of negative press [?]. Now, look, I don't personally drink Angry Orchard. This also is not an ad, but, you know--Deidre: That's some Angry Orchard right there. [laughs]Zach: [?]. People angry at the Orchard, okay? For the wrong and right reasons, mm-hmm. Okay, please continue though.Deidre: No, but that's where I'm coming from. Obviously I know--so when I say I'm hosting and organizing a diversity and inclusion conference, we are concentrating as a risk management community, talking about how we can help the risk management community get a hold on this from a strategic standpoint of either making insurance companies money or saving them through talent acquisition and getting the right talent, because we know if you lose employees you lose a certain amount of money trying to rehire people. We know what these--so think about this. When these companies have lawsuits, how are they getting paid? Typically through insurance. When it's a lawsuit and a claim. Unless it's--Zach: That's right.Deidre: Yeah, so it's really important to my industry strategically, from whether it's their internal practices or what they're paying out, especially if they're million-dollar claims or lawsuits, what's going on. So it's a strategic risk to think about how do we leverage it to grow our revenue and our brands, and also how do we minimize issues so that we're not losing money or losing top talent?Zach: I love it. I think that, you know, it's just interesting because--and I keep saying it's interesting, right? So you know--you know, Deidre, how when you talk to people you have certain things that you say as your pivot word? "It's interesting" is, like, my pivot word slash phrase, but I'm going to work on that. I'm gonna work on that after this interview, because I won't stop right now, but--Deidre: Can't stop, won't stop.Zach: Well, I will stop eventually.Deidre: [laughs] Not today, but you will tomorrow.Zach: Not today. It's about being introspective in the moment. I think that, you know, live introspection can help you actually move forward as opposed to--'cause you may not think about it again, so I'm calling it out right now in the middle of this interview awkwardly. So as I get older and I just pay attention, you know--and I'm bringing this up based off what you just talked about with the business imperative and the strategic imperative of inclusion and diversity--I realize though how much of the world I navigate is catered to white experiences, expectations, and comfort, and that doesn't really--that's not exclusive to--it's inclusive of corporate America as well, and when I think about the work that you're doing, in some way or another simply even bringing up otherness pushes up against some of those levels of comfort. So how do you navigate the fragility that comes with discussing non-whiteness in majority-white spaces?Deidre: You know... maybe that's my pivot word, "you know." [Zach laughs] I've been trained for this job and position--all my life I've been trained for this, because growing up, you know, from kindergarten to half of college I was in majority-white spaces. Like, my elementary school K through 8, my sister and I and maybe three other kids were black. Like, it was just mostly white. So I guess to me--the thing about this is with any idea or concept you're selling people on, you've gotta tell 'em what's in it for them, and I think that's a clear thing. And also don't make people feel ashamed for learning and uncovering bad habits. Like, for ex--and I don't know, think about this. If somebody, you know, for example, like you said, if you're saying a trigger word to pivot things, right? "Oh, you know, Zach, like, every time you transition you keep on saying "interesting." That's horrible." You're gonna be like, "Dang, that hurt me," right? It's just the same thing as saying, "Hey, you know, you always interrupt women." Like, "Why are you doing that?" That would not be my tactic when it, you know, comes to whether it's women issues, people of color, or whatever. So I always try to think of, you know, how to come out of a situation, whether it's for a person or a company or whatever, of how to tell them what's in it for them. So for example, "Hey, Acme Company, you're doing great when it comes to business practices, when it comes to just, like, in general." Like, "You're making money. Have you thought about the strategic risk of not having diverse talent and not really investing that?" "Oh, we have diverse talent." "Yeah, yeah, but do you understand the demographics are changing?" And companies are having either corporate social responsibility plans or diversity and inclusion initiatives that require or ask for diversity and what you're strategically doing. "Let me help you with that. Let me help you formulate a plan, 'cause I want you to succeed," or "Hey, I want you to be a good leader. Do you know about, you know, people are being evaluated now on how they are inclusive leaders? I have tools and resources if you want my help," and then they gotta ask for the help or say, "Yes, I want the help," you know? But at least make people aware of things in a way that you're helping them and less from a point of accusation or you're doing something wrong, because we all make mistakes, but until we're made aware of in a way that's safe and safe to admit--I have people tell me, "Deidre, like, you know, you put these things out there with diversity and inclusion that makes me rethink things, and you say it in a safe way so I don't feel threatened," and I'm like, "Thank you for saying that, because that is very uncomfortable, to say that you feel uncomfortable and threatened by things because you don't know what you're doing, so I'm happy to help you." Now, everyone doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to be the burden of a minority to educate the majority on their pain or frustration. That is a lot of--it's just a lot of work, but I'm choosing this work, so I'm using my power and my platform to do that. So it's a choice involved, but you've gotta either step up and be open to changing and pivoting your messaging to make real impact.Zach: I love that, and you're absolutely right that it is a choice, and there are different methods to do that. I do love the fact that you said, you know, black and brown folks and just non-white cisgendered folks, non-white male cisgendered folks, we're not obligated to carry the burden of educating people, so I'ma just go ahead and give you this right here. [applause sfx] Just so people--'cause, you know, there's also this narrative of like, "Well, how can they know if you don't teach 'em?" Like, 'cause they got Google. Like, people learn how to code.Deidre: That is what I--I'm like, "You can Google or YouTube anything."Zach: [laughing] You can Google so much.Deidre: Now, Zach, the thing about--I won't deal with ignorance to the point where people, like, trolls and stuff like that, like, I don't have time for Trolls. I'm not a troll collector. I don't really like those dolls or people, so I don't play with them. I don't play with Trolls. Okay, but people who are really open to learning, yeah.Zach: Right, that's the qualifier. They gotta be open to learning, but I like the fact that from the jump you said, you know, you've been--basically you've been molded for this, you know what I'm saying? Like, you've been, you know what I'm saying, like--[to this day sfx]--right? Like, you're doing it, right? [both laugh]Deidre: And I don't know about your background. For me, I also--that's why I strategically chose to go to Spelman College. I went to Atlanta. I visited out there for homecoming. My cousin went to Clark and I was like, "This is poppin'." I transferred in the middle of my college experience. And so I--1. I wanted the experience, but I've never been a majority in an all mostly black woman environment, and it was kind of a reality shock. So I also say on the flip side, if you've always been other, you might want to try to be in the majority because it really is a way to reframe your identity, because on one side, yeah, it's a lot of issues and stress being other and always trying to, like, reinforce what you're doing, but sometimes it's also a platform to make you stick out and people look up to you and whatever versus you blend in. I mean, no one realized I was new for a while. I had to tell people, "Hey, I'm a new girl. I don't know where I'm going," because I was camouflaged. And so I say that because, you know, there's no real perfect spectrum on this and what you can do, so I would just say use your platform no matter what you're doing to help things out. And I also say this because I had a mentor, and she was like, "Deidre--" I was young, this was my first job. She said, "You are a young, attractive black woman in this space, and no one looks like you. You're gonna get people's attention no matter what. Make sure when you do it's for a reason." So minorities people, you stand out, you know, whatever it is that you--if you stand out in your space, actually leverage that as a tool to stand out for a reason and get your agenda across or, you know, use your thought leadership, because, I mean, it is a gift and a curse, so why not use it to your benefit?Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And, you know, for me, 'cause I typically do stand out, right? So I'm a black man--I'm, like, 6'1". I'm a pretty big dude, right? I'm, like, 270, 280. Like, I'm a big guy, right? And so, you know, I know that I'm gonna stick out, and then plus I have this weird, like, Southern/Connecticut accent because my mother was an English teacher, but I'm also very country at the same time, and so I have--it's a unique profile, so when I show up I'm just--look, I'm trying to--I'm trying to make a show, right? And not, like, in a Bojangles kind of way, but I mean make an impact, you know what I mean? I show up like--I show up, I'm like [what it do baby sfx]. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm out here, okay? And, like, you know, I'll bring you in with the jokes and stuff, but then if you're actually trying to challenge me, like, I actually have some--you know, I have some intellectual rigor behind what I'm saying, right? I might hit you with some multi-syllabic words, you know? Whatever. So I hear you is my point. Okay, this has been a great conversation. Any parting words or shout-outs before we let you go?Deidre: Yeah, shout-out to myself. I'm Deidre Wright. I'm here--Zach: Ayo, she said shout-out to myself. Oh, my gosh. Yo, wait a second. [air horns sfx, both laughing]Deidre: Because if there's nothing else you learn this session, it's that you gotta advocate for yourself. You've gotta be your best cheerleader. Man, shout yourself out. There's a way to do it, but do it, 'cause if we don't do it, who will? And I say this because there are so many people I meet, young people, and they're like, "I would never think you work in insurance. You don't look like that," and I give them a different alternative reality and role model. So by advocating for yourself--I tell people it's selfish not to share your expertise. It's selfish not to say who you are and what you're doing, because you could be motivating so many different people by just sharing and promoting yourself and inspiring generations. [chaching sfx] So advocate for yourself, you know? Find me at DeidreWright.com. Also I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram. So at Instagram I'm @DeidreWrite, like I'm writing, you know, my life story, and just holler at me if I can help you with either personal branding, diversity and inclusion, and uplifting our people of all kinds to advance and promote diversity and inclusion.Zach: My goodness, gracious. You know, over 100 episodes we have never had a guest say, "Shout-out to me, yo." Not "shout-out to my mom," not "shout-out to my people." "Shout-out to me." I love it. No, no, 100%, and Deidre, we'll make sure we have all of your links and stuff in the show notes, so no pressure there. Okay. Well, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast. You know where we're at. Look, just Google Living Corporate at this point. That's right. It's a slight flex, but it's a true flex, okay? You Google--if you go to Google--shout-out to Google, 'cause this is not an ad--Google, Yahoo, Bing... what's another search engine, Deidre?Deidre: AskJeeves I guess is no longer here.Zach: AskJeeves? Yo. [both laugh]Deidre: Ask him. [both laugh]Zach: What you gonna say next, BlackPlanet? Xanga? AskJeeves? [both laugh]Deidre: MySpace. I mean, I still can't get into my old MySpace page. Forgot my passwords, but you can probably find me there too.Zach: My MySpace was fire back in the day. Anyway, the point is we're out here, okay? And we're really enjoying the fact that y'all are listening to this podcast, so shout-out to y'all. If you want to subscribe to the newsletter, again, just Google Living Corporate, you click the link, and there's a subscribe button right there, right when you click on the website, okay? We have new content. Of course we got this dope content right here. We got new blogs. Make sure you just check us out, okay? This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Deidre Wright right now - right on time - she's just right.Deidre: You know that's right.Zach: You know it's right. Not white, right?Deidre: But Deidre's right.Zach: Deidre's right. [both laugh] Deidre: Thanks, Zach, man. I appreciate it, and let me know if I can ever be of service to you.Zach: All right, we'll talk soon. Peace.

Zach sits down with Alicia Wade, a results-driven leader who works as a district manager at Banana Republic, to speak about black female leadership. Alicia shares her career journey with us and offers some advice for young black and brown women entering the professional space. She and Zach also discuss the concept of proactive feedback and how to effectively solicit it at work.Alicia is the CEO of The HR Source - check it out!Connect with Alicia on LinkedIn and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, listen, you know what we do. We come to y'all and we bring to y'all, you know, some type of, you know, fire for your head top, right? We have some type of creative, executive leader, public servant, you know, public speaker, educator, entrepreneur, artist. You know, we have somebody, typically of the, you know, melanated variety, but sometimes not. Sometimes we've got some Winter Soldiers, or some Buckys, if you will. Some aspirational allies. But we're having real conversations that center black and brown experiences, and today is no different. Today we have the Alicia Wade. [air horns sfx] Now, listen here, for those who don't know, Alicia Wade actually was one of my first bosses. I'ma say bosses 'cause she is a boss, but she was one of the first people at my first job, when I worked at Target, that was in a leadership position that I had ever seen a black person in a leadership position--actually, the first time I had ever seen a black woman in a leadership position. But I don't want to go ahead and take away from her thunder, so I'ma go ahead and introduce her right now. Alicia, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Alicia: I am amazing. How are you doing today?Zach: I'm doing really, really well. Now, look, I gave a very, like, non-intro intro for you, so why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself?Alicia: Okay. Where do you want me to start? 1980? [laughs]Zach: You know what? 1980 would not be that bad. Was it the day time or was it late at night?Alicia: It was the morning in the spring.Zach: Okay, okay.Alicia: Yes, for sure. [laughs] But no, I was--you know, I started--you know, to your point around starting as a boss, I really wasn't always a boss. Maybe bossy, but for sure. You know, I--kind of just giving a background of education and then really where I started my career, but, you know, I went to the University of Oklahoma, so I have to shout that out because, you know, the amazing Boomer Sooner, and I actually did--Zach: Okay, okay.Alicia: Yeah, my undergrad degree there, political science, communication, and then went straight to grad school. So for me I share that background because I just really, you know, was one of those black girls that had a list. I knew what I was gonna be. If you asked me when I was growing up, I just knew I was gonna be a lawyer, and then all that changed when I went to school and I was like, "I don't really wanna go to school for, like, three more years and, like, read and do all of that." So I went to grad school at Baldwin-Wallace. It's actually a university now. It was a college then. It is in Berea, Ohio. Do you know where Berea is?Zach: No, where is that?Alicia: So it is actually, you know, the campgrounds for the Cleveland Browns. So it is right outside of Cleveland in Ohio.Zach: Oh, okay, okay.Alicia: Yes, so if you fly into Cleveland, you're technically in Berea. So I was there, I did my MBA there, and I think through that journey I really realized that I had just a knack for wanting to be on teams, obviously being a student athlete and an athlete my whole life. I think that's really where I kind of moved into HR. So starting to your point around being one of your first bosses, I actually started with Target in their training program and did several roles there. So I had an opportunity to be at the store level, district and regional level in HR, and then actually--I was actually there for about 9 years and then moved onto Ross Dress for Less in an HR capacity and did that and then moved over to operations and did that for probably--well, how long when I was in operations there? For two years. So the total time I was there for 5 years, if you're following, and then now--Zach: I am.Alicia: Yeah. And then now currently I'm actually with Gap, Inc., with the Banana Republic division ["ow" sfx] as a district manager. So yeah, that's kind of where I am now.Zach: So that's incredible, and it's interesting. So today we're really talking about black female leadership, right? So you talked about this path that you went on, and then there were points in time where you kind of had to pivot, right? 'Cause you had this very clear plan. Can we talk about, like, what was the cause--what was the cause, like, for you to say, "Look, I don't want to do this particularly." 'Cause you said that you were drawn to being on teams, but, you know, you can be a team and still be a lawyer. So, like, what was the moment that made you say, "You know what? I need to do something different."?Alicia: Well, you know what? I think what I realized in being on teams is that, you know, kind of--I mean, I probably wouldn't say I had the words for it then or the language or even had done the discovery for my own, like, strength and [?] of what that really was, but I did realize that I was really good at making other people better. So to your point, being a track athlete. It could be, like, individual, right? You could do your thing and then also [?] relays, but I felt like at that point I did know that I was really good around motivating other people and that I had an energy that other people fed off of, and I don't know if that was necessarily--would have been [conveyed?] for me. Some people would have through a book or through research. So I just felt like, you know, that leadership role, I was always pushed in those roles. So, like, even when I was at OU, I was a black student president. I was in leadership roles through my sorority, Alpha Kappa Alpha. If you have sound effects, it would be a good time to add that right there.Zach: You want, like, a skee-wee or something? I don't have anything like that. Aren't y'all--wait, y'all be suing people. I'm not messing with you on this. [both laugh]Alicia: It could just be an amazing, like, "Alpha! Kappa! Alpha!" So anyway--[both laugh]--you heard that? Like, that little echo? It was amazing.Zach: I did.Alicia: Yes, and you had a picture in your mind of it being magnified, right? [Zach laughing] But we digress. So, you know, through those experiences in college, I think that's where that discovery came for me.Zach: Okay. Okay, cool. No, no, no. Listen, I'ma tell you something, 'cause y'all do be suing people, 'cause I saw somebody was making a joke--somebody made a joke about Kamala Harris and they put that AKA symbol on there, and it was on Twitter, and all the reactions on Twitter was [Law and Order sfx]. I said, "Wait a second. Relax, everybody." [Alicia laughing]Alicia: Well, you know what? Well, at least that sound effects knows--I think all of us through our childhood know that something epic was about to happen. So at the very least it's like, "Wait a minute," and we got their attention, right? And we're compliant. We're compliant, so we're good.Zach: [ow sfx, laughing] All right, so let's talk about this, because you're--when you talk about the roles that you've had and kind of going through the leader--you went through a training program, right? So you went through, like, an actual development program when you started at Target. Can we talk a little bit about what are some of the core things you learned through that program and what are some pieces that you feel like you picked up through that program that you wouldn't have otherwise?Alicia: Oh, my gosh. You know, it was so interesting. I talked--it's funny, you know, looking at what you do now, right, and where I am, and how that all started there, right? And I see that a lot. So I talk to a lot of peers that are in so many different capacities now in their career, and we all talk about the commonality with this, right? So I think for me--the good part is when you work for a company that has very structured development, or I should say an expectation that a supervisor shows up a certain way. Even if somebody doesn't have the capability or even the want to do it, it happens. So with that being said, I didn't always have supervisors that were able to show up in that way for me, but I would say the biggest thing I've learned, and it's a life lesson, is how I manage my expectations of other people, right? And I share that because I hear that a lot, especially as I even mentor, you know, younger, to your point, black and brown people today. If they're entering to the workforce and they have this expectation because of someone's title or their age or, you know, maybe their past experiences, and when they don't get that they are very discouraged. So that was a big lesson for me because I just came in and--you know, being from Houston, I think, you know, when you think about, like, a Southern culture, you really, you know, have a lot of respect, you know, for people. So I was like, "Yes, ma'am," "No, sir," and then when I realized people didn't show up very professional in some cases, I had to--to your point through this program--really position myself to not let that be a distraction, and I share that background because I think one of the biggest things that I had to learn, particularly around communication, is I showed up very rigid in a lot of those environments, whether it was, you know, day-to-day, whether it was in a mixer or things--and there was a lot of promotional opportunities that passed me because people just didn't know who I was, you know? It was just kind of like--you know, it was--I showed up in the workplace thinking, "You just don't share those kind of things," right? Like, they don't need to know what I do at home. And people wanted to, and it was important. So it's interesting, even as you do the intro today to say I was the first person that you saw, right? A person of color that related to you. That was a journey for me to get there, to realize that, and that was a big learning. And even today, you know? Like, obviously with Coco, you know, in the tennis championships now and seeing her and all this conversation about how animated she is, and, you know, just--it's so raw. Like, that is kind of how I showed up, you know what I mean? And being an athlete, being an aggressive, being this--and that didn't always translate into positive for me. [laughs]Zach: No, no, I hear you. But this is the thing about that though, right? I think that we've also been--so I'ma speak for myself, and I've also seen, like, my peers, is black folks, you know, it's--there's a certain level of guardedness that we're taught to have just because, like, you know, "Look, there's only a few of us. Don't mess anything up. Don't put yourself out there too far." And I also think culturally we just have this thing around, like, sharing our personal business in ways that, like--there are things we just don't talk about at work, you know what I'm saying? And so there's this--but to your point though, there's this challenge of, like, "Okay, well, what's the line? How vulnerable can you make yourself?" Because people aren't gonna want to promote or work with somebody that they don't know. Like, most people anyway. I don't--I don't care. Listen, I just want to do the job. It's fine. But I'm learning, and I've learned, that, you know, people just feel more comfortable if they know you a little bit. And so my question is how did you create that cocktail for yourself? Like, how did you come into--you know, what is it that I really want to share? What will I still kind of hold back? Like, how did you kind of give yourself permission to be a bit more vulnerable at your job?Alicia: Yeah, for sure. So I can think of a couple of things. So I can think of an experience where I was actually interviewing, and I was pregnant at the time, and we were doing, like, a Skype, like, interview, because, you know, the actual people that were doing the mock interviews were in other locations, and it was an African-American female. She was in a supervisor position. And we're going through, and I'm thinking--and I share this story often--like, you know, I'm prepared. I've got all my notes. And the message I was trying to convey was someone who was reliable, right, and qualified. So I had all of that to the--you know, bringing that to the table, and I just remember her, like, cutting me off mid-sentence. Like, ugh. Who are you? I'm not feeling you right now, and you need to get it together. And, like, inside--you know, like, we all--we've done so much, particularly as African-American females, to pull it all together and present this package, and when someone is unraveling that it's like, "Wait a minute," right? And that's what happened in that moment for me. But to your point around creating that cocktail, that, like, having her say it's okay and seeing her show up as herself and still be professional, you know, and great at her job, like it wasn't this caricature, right? She was herself. She was professional. She was someone I looked up to, and she was still herself. She didn't become anybody else. It helped give me that courage. But I think for me, like, the steps towards that was me finding things that I was okay to share, right? Like, so to kind of, like, put a little, like, pinky toe in the water. So it's like, "Okay, I like to work out," you know? "So let me talk about that, and then maybe I'll build a connection," and then I just continued to build upon that, about things that, you know, I feel comfortable with, but then I think I learned in that is that that's what motivates people. And then I thought about--I made it personal. Like, I want to know what's important to my boss, right? Like, I want to know them as a person, and then when I started to meet with people and I started to, you know, move up in my career in multi-unit positions and interacted, to your point, at so many different levels with people, I was able to meet people at their level and then also connect at that level.Zach: So then what advice would you have, right, for the young black woman, young brown woman, coming into the professional space who does have it all together? 'Cause you're absolutely right, like, there is--and I believe this translates to black men as well. Like, you know, we try to come with, like, "Look, I got this, I got this. I'm tight. Like, I've got all of these different things. If they ask me this, I'ma say that. If they ask me this, I'ma say that." When you don't have someone who is gonna kind of give you the assurance that it's okay to be yourself and who isn't maybe, you know, guiding you along, what advice would you give to someone who is trying to break out of their shell a little bit?Alicia: Yeah. You know what? I would share--I guess this is where, like, the academic in me comes out, because I also teach at the University of Houston. So it's a great opportunity [ow sfx] as an adjunct professor--aye, let's go. I [?] from OU to our great Cougars here. Zach: To UH. Uh.Alicia: Yes, there we go. H-Town in the house. [both laugh] But one of the things that I share there with the students all of the time is around, like, the dialogue, right? And you have internal dialogue in yourself that you're having, and you can get distracted about maybe, you know, cues that you're not getting from people, right? So even in this conversation, there's things that you're doing that are affirming me that we're on track, right? And vice versa, and sometimes we don't get that, not because we're wrong--it's because you may be the first person that this, you know, particular person has interacted with like you, if that makes sense, right? So just because you may be sharing, right, about whatever that may be that's very personal or maybe you think is cultural and they're looking at you a certain way, that doesn't mean that that's wrong, right? Or that you shouldn't share it. It just may be a new experience, and you can't let those external things go along. Then it starts to spiral and you're not showing up as your authentic self. So I think you have to get to a place where "Hey, this is who I am," you know? And continue to show up that way, because any time I feel like you're--you feel like you are a fraud or you are trying to act like other people, you're never gonna come across as someone that other people want to be around anyway - in my opinion. So that would be my advice.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. Now, you know, you talked a little bit about your sorority, but, you know, everybody, Alicia, is not blessed to don the pink and green and wear the pearls and toss the [?] hair, right? Everybody don't have a community that they come into. So for the folks that are kind of doing [?], what does it look like--what would you suggest that they do to kind of build those networks in those kind of, like, trusted spaces?Alicia: Absolutely, and I think that is definitely something along the journey that I had to learn, even though I was in those environments, because no one in my family really has worked--like, most of--particularly the women are in education, right, and I was kind of brought up that if you weren't a teacher or a nurse, what do you do? Right? So I totally can relate to someone who maybe is not even able to go home or, especially as a new professional, being able to talk to your parents about your experiences, but I would say you have to be very intentional around finding--and not necessarily somebody that looks like you, but maybe they are--whether it's a position or they have the characteristics that you want to possess, that could be a star for you. I think the other piece is maybe somebody that's maybe struggling in the same area as you are, right? So let's say you see someone that is in a position that you want to be in, and let's say communication is your opportunity--it's, like, you're not necessarily the most articulate person, right, but you aspire to do, but you see that person is maybe in a certain role, connecting with them to ask, like, how did they work around that, right? And maybe you don't feel comfortable going straight to them. Maybe you're in an environment that that's not appropriate and you don't have that access to that person, but what events can you go to, right? Like, can you be intentional to say, "Hey, my work schedule doesn't necessarily afford me to do A, B, and C, but there is this networking opportunity at this time through my church," right? Look around you, and I think if you approach it, your development or an area of growth around the abundance as opposed to the limitations, you will find somebody that is gonna be willing to help you or even--they may not even realize they're helping you and you know you're going with that very intentional question and they can answer it for you and you get that nugget, right? [ow sfx] And then you just start believing it. Yes.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And you know what? I just--I appreciate this because, you know, it's about being resourceful, right? Like, you've got to reach out and use and just think beyond, you know, your initial, you know, four corners or whatever and just reach out a bit, because there are resources available. You've got Google, which is, like, this huge thing where you can, like, type in things into this, like, little square, and then when you press Enter then a bunch of things pop up. You know, there's just all types of resources out there, so you gotta get busy. You gotta get out there.Alicia: Right. But I think to your exact question, even though we have so much information, people are not necessarily more informed per se about specific things when it comes to their career, and I challenge people, particularly to your point minorities a lot and people in my circle where, you know what, their Instagram is popping, their Facebook, like, you have all the great pictures, angles, but then you don't have a LinkedIn account or you don't have an updated resume or you don't have a CV. So it's like you've invested all of this time of creating and crafting this image but not necessarily the same for your professional, right?Zach: Wait a minute. [Flex bomb sfx] What you talking about? You're dropping these bombs over here talking about--so wait a second though, and I know you're church, so you're over here talking about "so you've crafted this image."Alicia: Yes, Jesus. We've got one of them anointed words right there, right? Yes, hallelujah. Zach: "But it's not real!" Then part of me, I was like ["and i oop" sfx]. You know what I'm saying? I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, that's real though. Alicia: Yes, wave your hands in there.Zach: No, that's true though.Alicia: Yes, it is, and it's just--recently I had a mentee that I was talking to, and she was preparing for an interview, but she'd post every day on, like, her Insta story, right? Like, videos. She looks beautiful in these videos. And I said, "Well, why don't you use something you do every day?" Like, you want to convey this message. Like, have you ever looked at yourself when you're trying to talk about your career? And she's like, "I never thought about that," and I said, "Well, you clearly like looking at yourself, right? So why don't you start there?" Like, it is around you. So that's what I would say. I think it's kind of step back, realize what you do have, and just start somewhere small, right? Like, it doesn't have to be a program that costs thousands of dollars. It doesn't have to be dropping the name of, you know, this person is my mentor or, you know, they have this title. It really may be the secretary in, you know, your particular office that is someone that is warm, that may be older than you that can give you some advice around navigating that environment that you can learn from at the level you're at right now.Zach: No, I love that. 100%. And I'm curious, you know, we talked a little bit about--again, we started off talking about leadership, and we talked about you coming into yourself. So that was self-management. Let's talk about what does it look like for you to manage others. Particularly what I'd like to talk about is, like, the art of influence, as well as really giving effective feedback. So you and I both--well, so you started at Target, I also started at Target, and I think a large part of the element of Target, the culture at the time was really about, like, you know, positive feedback, public praise, and I've seen that you've carried that forward in your positions with Gap, specifically Banana Republic, and how you give feedback. So can we talk a little bit about that and, like, your theory or your philosophy around feedback and, like, your practices on how you give it to your team?Alicia: Yeah, for sure. You know, I think feedback is something that I value, and I think it starts--you know, my brother and I talk about this all the time because he plays sports, actually football, and is currently still in the field with athletics, and we talk about how that shows up in the workplace of people that are used to being coached, right? Like, you're used to looking at a video and a group of people sitting around critiquing it, right? And really understanding that there's a moment that you have to capture right now. Like, you don't have another day or a week to wait. So I think that kind of shaped my philosophy per se, if there is one, is that you have to [?] find and be aware as a boss, right, or a manager of those coachable moments and not wait. You know, I think we've all been in situations where somebody sat us down and they had a list, and you think, like, "Wow." You know, like, all of these things that they're telling you that you need to get better at, or examples, and you're sitting there, and at a point you just look around like, "Wow, why didn't they tell me then?" Like, "I had no clue," right? So I think that's what I never want to be as a supervisor. I never want somebody to be shocked, right? And I also want them to know, like, "I'm giving you this feedback because I believe you can improve," right? 'Cause I think a lot of times, particularly--if I bring this to your point of our audience here of, like, black and brown people, particularly for black women, when I mentor them there's a lot of times the absence of feedback means that there's an absence of a problem. "Oh. Well, nobody told me that." It's like, "That does not mean that you didn't need to get better." And I think--I share that because the next part of it is, even in my self-journey and things like that or my own development, there's a lot of times I would get feedback and I would want to make it about the other person. Like, "Well, if they just got to know me, then they would know that's not really how I am." Like, "I'm not really like that," right? Or "If they gave me a chance to do it, then they would just know," opposed to thinking, "No, we're talking about this specific instance."Zach: Right now.Alicia: "Right now. Can you understand how you're showing up, how it could be--just the possibility of how it could be perceived this way?" And in that space, what can you control and move forward with? So I think with my team, I try to make sure that I create that--like, we create that as an agreed-upon communication from the beginning, right? Like, so they're not shocked, 'cause I don't want to assume that you've gotten this before, right? And I want you to also understand my intent. So we talked about in the beginning, like, "Hey, here's how I communicate. Here's what I do, and let me know if that works for you," and a lot of times I found that people don't really know how they like to get feedback until they get it. [laughs] 'Cause it's like, "Actually, I don't really want--" You know, they think that they don't like it or it's gonna be odd or it's, like, gonna be breaking them down, and then once they realize, like, this is gonna be a feedback-rich environment, then I think people buy in, but I also feel like it's a great way--I'm in a, you know, environment particularly in retail that moves very fast, right? And it is very results-driven. So if you are in an environment where productivity or--it's high-functioning, then I think it's very rewarding. I am aware that there are environments, right, like, when I go into, like, an educational space, where it's not as frequent, right? And you don't have--it's like an event when you get feedback. I think you really have to meet the person where they are, and I think you have to make sure that they understand where it's coming from, and that's my thoughts about it. Zach: No, I love that. And, you know, this is the thing, because--you know, background and upbringing is all very important, because I would just--for me, it was primarily my mom and I growing up, and my mom would just tell me all of the time, like, you know, "Hey, you need to do this better. You need to change da-da-da-da." Like, "You need to clean it up, boy. You're looking crazy out here." So it's not--it wasn't odd to me to get, like, direct feedback at work. I think it was reinforced by Target too 'cause Target was such a feedback--and I think retail is like that in general, as an industry, right? Because, like you said, it's results-driven, it's very action-oriented, and it's execution-focused and execution-oriented that you're gonna have to get this feedback 'cause we gotta get this stuff done, and so what has been a challenge for me though, Alicia, has been, like, transitioning outside of retail and just realizing, like, the--I don't know, like, just the fragility of folks. So, like, have you ever had a situation as a black person, as a black woman, giving feedback to a non-black person, and they, like, crumble like you've just destroyed them?Alicia: I have, yeah.Zach: Okay. Can we talk about it?Alicia: Yeah. You know, I can think of several. You know, there's one that's coming up, like, top of mind, but I probably would say it's pretty common, and this is how it happened. And to your point, you know, the person reacted very emotionally, and in that moment I had to pause and ask, like, "What are these tears about right now? Because what I'm saying shouldn't be causing tears," right? Like, I'm sharing an observation about something we already have--you know, sometimes you may have something that's very specific, right, that you can measure it, but I also find, particularly in being in the HR space, right, that it's very hard to coach people or for people to give feedback on something they can't measure. So to your point, you start having this very what feels like abstract conversation, like "What are we really talking about?" And then the person can become defensive if you don't have measurables to say, "Hey, look. See, this is what I mean." And in that particular conversation, that's what the person was--I would use the word argued. Maybe argued is not the right word, but they were, you know, disagreeing, right? Like, "Well, I don't see it that way," and I think we had to disagree in that space of "It is okay for you not to agree. However, what we have to agree upon is that you do have to value my opinion as your supervisor," right? "And let's also agree that we don't have to." Right? Like, we can be in this space and see this totally different--Zach: And it still be okay.Alicia: And it still be okay, you know? And I'm not asking you to change your perspective. I'm just putting you on notice, right, like, that this is the way that it looks to me and this is how I would like us to move forward, and in this particular conversation, the person was not ready to talk about the path forward. They weren't, because they were still stuck and just kind of thinking around, and I think you have to know, like, not to overbear--you know what I mean? Like, be overbearing.Zach: Yeah, overwhelming.Alicia: Yeah, overwhelming, 'cause this may be truly--regardless of their age, regardless of the position that they're in, this may be the first time that they've heard this, and you have to respect that, right? So to your point, you've grown up being told, like, "You're not all that. Okay, no, you need to go change," or, like, "Ugh," and that's not something that's crumbling for you, right? But someone that's never gotten honest feedback from someone that loves them, you don't know what that background is in the workplace, right? So somebody shows--Zach: That's real.Alicia: You know, somebody shows up, and then once again going back to that us being comfortable, right, and us being--like, you can't take that as that you did something wrong, because now you can retreat and not be operating in a space that you need to. So yeah, I've absolutely had that, and, you know, what I've done for me is that follow-up is really important. So comment back, like, "Let's agree upon a time on when it'll be good to revisit this," 'cause I find a lot of times for certain people avoidance is a tactic that they use, right, when it comes to conflict, and that's the most ineffective thing that you can do, right? Like, time does not cure all, right? In fact, it makes it worse, because we had this conversation 6 months ago and we still said nothing, right? Or that was last year during your annual review that we talked about it, or as a peer we worked on this project together, but that was--we only do that once a quarter, right? And I didn't really like working with you, and you had an attitude, or you were late, or I didn't really like the quality of your work, but we never really got to the root cause for us to move forward. So I come back to "Okay, you know, last time we spoke this is where we landed. How are you feeling today?" You know? And not let people off the hook with making it about you.Zach: You know, that's just a really good point. That last part is huge, because it is easy for me--'cause I'm a bit of a narcissist, so--[both laugh] Alicia: It's something you--right, but you can internalize it, right? Zach: Right, absolutely. Like, and so it's like, "Okay, well, then, clearly this is something I did wrong. Okay, how can I improve?" And, like, you know, a part of you thinks, like, "Oh, well, this is me being accountable." It's like, "Yeah, but you're being accountable at a toxic--at a point that's not even accurate or helpful," because you're centering yourself and internalizing to the point that we're not actually getting to a solution, you know what I mean?Alicia: Yeah. But I think too to your point around accountability, and this is something that I've, you know, from a learning--you know, to your question initially, that's an area where, like, accountability overused has gotten in the way, right, for me of, like, working too much or, you know, it could come across as aggressive, or--you know, those things, and you're really overly accountable, and I think that's where understanding what accountability and responsibility looks like, right? So you may be in that environment. You're accountable for whatever that project, and that's why you're giving this feedback, but that person is responsible as well, you know, to show up a certain way or deliver in those areas, and how do you balance that, you know, so it doesn't--like, obviously you gotta work on, maybe in that space, what you need to do, but there's also something that they needed to work on, and we can't be distracted about how it came across to them, per se.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and you're right, like, we do overuse that word, and, you know, I think--again, like, it's an old phrase, but, like, accountability is a two-way street. Like, it's not--because if one person is always accountable and the other person is never accountable, then that's--that's toxic. Like, that doesn't make sense.Alicia: Yes, and I think if you become--like, especially when we think about giving feedback, right, and we're thinking about whether that's from a generational or we think about from a cultural standpoint, we have to make sure that that's a two-way street, and if you're the only person trying to work through this relationship, then you really aren't growing in how to manage and work with people that don't look like you.Zach: You know, I just--[straight up sfx] I mean, you're right. What can I say?Alicia: Hol' up! [both laugh]Zach: Man. Okay, so this has been a great conversation. So, you know, there are times for me where--you talked earlier about, like, people giving you feedback and, like, sitting you down with a laundry list of feedback. We also just talked about accountability and responsibility. For me, I really enjoy the idea of soliciting feedback, because I'm trying to--like, you know, in the idea of you trying to sit me down and have some laundry list of stuff, I'm just over here like ["stupid, i'm not gonna let you get the chance" sfx] You know what I'm saying? I'm just trying to, like, make sure I'm proactive, okay? Alicia: [both laughing] Right, right. Like it's above me now, right?Zach: Listen. Okay, so my question to you is what are your thoughts on proactive feedback? And what are ways that you solicit feedback from your team and from your leadership?Alicia: Yeah. So this is--oh, my gosh, this is definitely a gem for me when I think about just development for myself. I think I've been in situations where I've had supervisors that weren't able to give me feedback, right, because I was meeting goals, I was doing a really good job, and it was meeting their expectations, right? So you go and you ask and you solicit and it's like, "Oh, it's great." Like, "There's nothing you can do better," and that's never worked for me, you know? And maybe because the way that I'm wired, you know? Like, I really want to even get feedback around, like, what did you like? Like, what am I doing well so I can know what to repeat, right? Or even how I got the result, and I find often that people may achieve a goal, right, or whatever it may be, and it's kind of like, "Okay, we're so excited," but they cannot articulate how, right? And for me I feel like that's kind of--there's a silver bullet or a magic sauce, a cocktail, right, that you're creating on how to repeat success. You have to know what you did, right? Because it may be a different environment. So for me, that's really important for personal feedback for me, whether it be from a supervisor, a peer, or even my direct reports. Like, if we feel like we're in a good space, right--and I would start with direct reports--that I manage, I want to know what you like, right? So if you feel like, "Hey, communication is great," I want them to be very specific, but that's just how I'm wired, right? Like, I want to know - do you prefer this type of communication? Do you prefer this type of recognition? Okay, when we're working on a project, what level of autonomy do you like? So I ask, you know? I think there's some people that it's really easy for them and those that aren't, so I'll set it up. If we're gonna have, for instance, a touch-base, or we know we're gonna have a formal sitting down, [I] say, "Hey, when we connect, I want to give some feedback on how that went," and I'll put it out there, right, whether that's in a conversation or even written, for them to prepare their thoughts. So that's something that's worked for me. I think with peers, I have something that's helped me, particularly around communication and working on how I come across, 'cause that was something early in my career and I think still today. Like, my non-verbals. You know, like, that face? Like, okay. Like, having somebody in the room, you know, or your tone to say, "Okay, hey, you know, yeah, you did come across this way." I've always tried to solicit people that can help me in that area, and if they aren't there someone that I've seen that is an expert in the area or better than me. I go to them to say, "Hey, do you mind if I reach out to you, like, once a month just to get your ideas? It doesn't have to be long. Would it be okay if I maybe text you or shoot this over to you and you give me some feedback?" That's really helped also break down, you know, some barriers where--I don't want to say competition per se, right, but it's helped people also give [me] more feedback that maybe they wouldn't before, right? Because I've already put out there, "Hey, I'm trying to get better here. You've already got this locked down. I'm trying to learn. Do you mind if I just--you know, if I send this to you and ask questions?" Most people are gonna be very open. So that's something that I do a lot, and that's how I would say I solicit feedback or try to.Zach: No, that's--no, no, no, that's great, and I think, again, to your point around, like, "Well, no one told me anything so it must be fine," it's like the only time that I--the only time I take that attitude where "nobody told me anything, it must be fine" is if I ask you for feedback and you say, "I don't have any feedback," and then you come back later with something, then I'm like, "Hey, wait a second. You big buggin' now."Alicia: And you know what? Here's one thing. And, you know, I think we learn a lot from also bad supervisors or people we didn't like working for, and that was one. I had a supervisor that comes to mind, and that's--this is why I would say I take the approach now, because she didn't necessarily know what she wanted things to look like, but she did--she was very good at critiquing what you put forward, and that was SO demotivating for me. In fact, it was--like, it was emotional, you know what I mean? Like, I would just be, like, hurt by it, because it was like--to your point--I went to you, asked you for feedback--"Hey, here's my plan. This is what I'm thinking. This is the approach I want to take." And they would be like, "Oh, yeah. Check, check. Great." And then I [?]--you know, I felt [I?] was taking huge leaps or a risk in some cases, right, and we agreed upon this is what we were gonna do going forward, and then she would come back if maybe there were other partners that felt a certain way or it didn't resonate with them or she saw it and then would, like, kind of break me down, you know what I mean? That list would come out of "Okay, well, you could've did this, and you could've did that," and in that--at that time, I shut down. You know? So it became--I won't say angry, but the hurt became--I just took a list, and then I thought, "I'm never gonna do that again," and that didn't help anybody, particularly me. So I think that's when I--to your point, trying to get ahead of it now, like, not letting somebody that says, "Oh, I don't have anything to share," get in the way--get in the way of me moving forward.Zach: No, you're 100% right, and I think--so it's both and, right? It's you were looking for the feedback. You were soliciting it, and then you--not using that as a blocker, right? No matter what you get. So if you don't get anything, don't use it as a blocker. If you get something that doesn't really align with what you think it is, then don't use it as a blocker either. Just make sure that it's something that you're taking the time to do, but it shouldn't impede you from moving forward towards whatever goals that you have. I think--like, a mentor that I have who--she's told me this a few different times. Shout-out to you, Liz. I see you. What's up?Alicia: Hey.Zach: Hey. Come on. So Liz was like "Look--" And Liz is a mentor of mine. She's a great friend, and she was also on the show a few episodes back, actually during Pride Month, but anyway, so look. Liz said--she said, "Look, Zach, you know, the beauty of feedback is you don't have to agree with it. You don't have to take all of it." Alicia: [laughs] Right.Zach: She was like, "You know, Zach, I think you're burdening yourself with every time someone gives you feedback, you take that as, like, a mandate that you need to change something." Like, that's not--that's not what feedback is. Feedback is something for you to consider. So the best thing you can say to someone giving you feedback? "Hey, thank you for your feedback." That's it. [laughs] That's it.Alicia: For sure, and that's so important to your point. It's like, there's--if you can compartmentalize things, right, then you can do something with it later, because that feedback may be relevant at another time, and then you can see it, right? When it shows up again, but today I don't necessarily have to create a plan based on what you said. I can just put there and say, "Oh, okay. That's Zach's feedback that he gave me today. Okay. All right. Hm. I don't necessarily see it, but thank you." And it stays right there. Yeah, I think that's awesome.Zach: And that's it. But I think some of the challenge when it comes to just, like, bias in the workplace, and, like, there's also, like, this underlying and sometimes overlying expectation that women, particularly black women, are just, like, the workhorses of whatever. So, you know, sometimes I've been told--you tell me if I'm right or wrong, but, like, sometimes people give you feedback with the expectation that you're just gonna do what they say, and it's like... that's not necessarily the case. Like, I'm just gonna take this feedback, and I will--I will make a determination as to how, or if, I implement it into what I'm doing.Alicia: Yes, for sure. I think--no, I agree, I think that is true for me and what I've seen. And even more, to take it a step further--'cause I know we've talked through a lot of tips on this podcast around, you know, how--you know, interviewing tips and moving forward, right? I see this a lot in interviewing people and them not being able to explain why they haven't moved forward, right? They feel like it's someone else's--you know, someone else's... I don't know even the word. Like, it's their responsibility or their fault. We'll use the word fault, right? Of "Okay, I'm here," and they can't say why, and to me it's like, "Okay, you've never gotten any feedback or no one's ever told you or you're not able to look at this job or see someone in that role and see what they do better than you and what--maybe even the one thing they do better than you--and what's held you back?" And that's the approach I take for feedback. Like, if you can think about it in that way opposed to, to your point, something that you have to change or take on or feel like you've got to bow down or become someone different, but really as a lens for you to see things that you may not be seeing. So that's what I see often, particularly for black women.Zach: Man, this has been great. Alicia, before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Alicia: Shout--I mean, when you say let you go, I feel like we've got to queue that Beyonce, and that has to be in the background that we have here, but--Zach: Again, I don't know what you don't understand about [Law and Order sfx]. We can't do that. I don't own Roc-a-Fella or whoever she--or whatever she signed that thing through, or House of Dereon, LLC. I don't know. Listen, we're gonna have that nice, you know what I'm saying, copyright-free jazz music that you hear in the background. Trying to get us in trouble. We already said AKA a few times. They're gonna be knocking on my door. Now you're talking about--Alicia: No, they're not. They're gonna be looking at this. We're gonna be--they're gonna be helping with [?] mass media, passing it out here. But no, seriously--Zach: Come on, now.Alicia: You know what I mean? But no, seriously, I want to--you know, if there's a recognition, I want to recognize you, because I think, you know, creating this space, A. to have conversation, is one thing, right? But I think you being very intentional around making sure that the conversation has different perspectives, whether that be from industry, you know, whatever, right? I think that this is just very phenomenal, and I've seen, like I've said, from the beginning when you first sent out this podcast to where you are now. So I just want to, you know, tip my hat to you, brother, and really seeing how you brought also other people in to expand--it's just fantastic. While keeping your full-time job. So round of applause. I'm super excited and just happy to be a part [kids cheering sfx]--yes. So anything, you know, that we can do in the future, any way I can continue to add to the conversation, would be the shout-out. So thank you as well. Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, first of all, you've got me blushing. I'm turning purple. I appreciate this. And you know what? Shout-out to you, okay? 'Cause, like I said, you were one of the first people, and, you know, the thing about it--see, the thing about Alicia--now, look, I know we have this natural hair movement now and everything. Let me tell you something. Back in, like, 2011, I walked into Target doing my thing, Alicia came through edges LAID, okay?Alicia: All the time.Zach: Okay? Pearls. Pearls thick, y'all. Don't play. And she had heels on, and she was moving. She was working the floor. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. This is incredible." So shout-out to Alicia and your whole brand, everything that you do, everything that you've done. Shout-out to of course, you know what I'm saying, 1906, you know what I'm saying? I got y'all. Pink and green. I respect y'all. Please do not come for my neck. Please. I appreciate y'all. I did not put no logos on this stuff. Alicia: There will be a logo though, in the show notes.Zach: Oh, my gosh. Okay, yes, so we will put a logo in the show notes. It will show all of the legal information and that we are not indemnified by anything--[both laugh]Alicia: You are so silly, for sure.Zach: [laughs] Okay, but look, final air horns for you--[air horns sfx]--and you know what? This has been it, y'all. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. Of course this has been Zach. You've been listening to Alicia Wade. Now, look, I usually say all of the little Twitter stuff, but look, we brolic now, okay? So I don't have to say "follow us on this." Just Google Living Corporate, okay? Google me. What was that--oh, yeah, Teyana Taylor I think made that song called Google Me. But no, for real, shout-out to Teyana Taylor too, but look, Google me. Just Google Living Corporate. Living--L-I-V-I-N-G--Corporate. I'm not gonna spell out corporate. I don't have the time. But check us out. We're everywhere. Appreciate y'all. We'll talk to y'all soon. Peace.

Zach speaks with the founder and CEO of MINWO, Melanie Akwule, about effectively supporting women, specifically black and brown women, in the workplace. Melanie shares her experience as a black woman in corporate America and talks about MINWO's origin and its vision. She also offers up three points of advice for women of color who are looking to get into entrepreneurship and a whole lot more.Check out MINWO and connect with them on social media! LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, FacebookVisit Melanie's personal page and network with her on LinkedIn!Stop by our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a what? Not a C-Side, not a D-Side, but a B-Side. Now listen, it's 2019, so some of y'all don't even know, like, the reference of a B-Side, but, like, there was a point in time where, like, you know, musical content was on tapes and records, right? And you would, like--you know, you would flip it over. You would flip the record over, and that would be, like, the B-Side, right? And so the B-Sides were, like, the songs that weren't, like, the chart toppers, but they were still good songs, right? So, you know, that's really what we're trying to do here with B-Sides. But see, the thing about Living Corporate B-Sides is the B-Sides'll be hits too. It's kind of like when you think about Beyonce, right? Like, when you think about, like, a B-Side from Beyonce, like, it's still a hit, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's what we're trying to do with Living Corporate, you know what I'm saying? I'm not saying we're Beyonce. I'm just saying we're making hits doe. ["ow" sfx] That's all. Now, look, we've introduced, you know, plenty of guests, movers and shakers, business people, and, you know, today's no different. We have a great guest, Melanie Akwule. Melanie: Hello, hello.Zach: What's up? CEO and founder of MINWO, LLC, a company focused on building black wealth and black business. Melanie describes herself as living at the intersections of business and technology, black and female, African and American, introvert and extrovert, leading and supporting, and the trees and the forest, with a background in data science, product management, business administration, and diversity and inclusion. Come on, now. [kids applause sfx] So impressive. Melanie, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Melanie: I'm good. I'm great. What a time to be alive. Just living each day.Zach: No, I 100% agree. [straight up sfx]Melanie: Thanks so much for having me.Zach: No, thank you for being here. Now, look, I know I did a little bit of a short intro, but would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Melanie: Yeah. When you say it all like that I kind of sound like somebody, don't I? [laughs]Zach: [jokingly] Just a little bit though.Melanie: [laughs] Where do I start? Well, first off, I just finished up my MBA, so I am a free woman. You could not pay me to go back to class. [air horn sfx] Thank you. Yeah, I just finished my MBA from Berkeley Haas, so I'm still living out here in the Oakland area. Born and raised in Burke, Virginia. Wanted to shout out the 703 right quick. Like I mentioned, or like you mentioned, Nigerian-American, and really just out here trying to leave a legacy through my company.Zach: I love it, I love it. You know, there's so much there. We gotta talk about MINWO, right? Like, let's talk about the organization. Let's talk about the origin. Let's talk about the vision.Melanie: Yeah. So MINWO was something that was kind of birthed out of a necessity. I was one of those people that did not want to start a business. It was kind of like how in Atlanta every rapper has a mixtape. Well, in the Bay Area it's like everyone's an entrepreneur, everyone's a founder, so I was like, "No, that's not gonna be me," but, you know, life takes you in directions that you don't really--you can't really plan for. So in 2015 the George Zimmerman verdict came out, and I was livid, as was most of our community, and it really just pushed me to do something, and for me it's--I've always been about economic development, economic empowerment within our community, and I feel like it's the--it's really the way that we'll be able to make the changes that we want to see in this country, because you can't play in the political game if you don't have financial backing. So that's really how it came about.Zach: Those are facts.Melanie: Yeah. That's really how it came about. Zach: So you're absolutely right, and I think--you know, when I look at MINWO and I think about, like, just the importance of community, right? When you talk about, like, black and brown economic empowerment, that doesn't happen on an island, and it never has. Like, no group has ever built any type of economic power base or political structure on their own, right? So, you know, we're talking about effectively supporting women, specifically black women, in the workplace, and we've talked about that a few times, and really, you know, we really can't talk about it enough. You know, what has been your experience as a black woman in corporate America?Melanie: You know, it's a unicorn kind of situation sometimes, right? Like, sometimes you look around and you're like, "Man, I'm blessed to be the only person in this room from my community, like, to represent and to show them just how bad--- we can be, but also on the flip side it can be extremely stressful. I was working for a Fortune 10 company, one of the largest in the world, and it was just amazing to me how I can go so many places and still be the only black woman in the room. And so it really just--it drove me to want to 1. build community that much more, so I was a part of their African-American ERG at work, even led it for a little bit, but then also 2. making sure that the knowledge that I'm getting in those rooms, so at work and then also at B school, taking that knowledge and bringing it back to my community, 'cause if I'm the only person in that room, that means there are many, many others that's not getting that same type of wealth of knowledge. And so I took it upon me to make sure that I was doing my best to kind of package that information up and bring it back to my community. Zach: That's super dope. And, you know, it's interesting because, you know, experiences, our experiences, they shape the things that we eventually do, right? So how have your experiences in corporate America shaped the culture that you're trying to build within MINWO?Melanie: Yeah. So for me, my thing with corporate America is I would go into the office and I didn't know whether I was battling the fact that I was black, the fact that I was female, or the fact that I was young and in a leadership position, and so it was constantly like, "I'm not sure which weapon I need to use today," and who I was trying to fight today, and so in building MINWO I'm really just focusing on--you know, all of the superficial stuff does not matter, right? Like, who are the people that are working with me? Who are the people that I'm working with? And how can we work most optimally together? And so I very much designed the company to not necessarily worry about working hours or not necessarily worry about how people work. As long as they're getting their stuff done, as long as they're, you know, working as a team, that's really all that matters to me, and then also just being able to pour into them as a mentor, as someone that barely knows what she's doing, but, you know, again, sharing the few gems that I do have, that's also been important to me, just realizing that we can all win. It doesn't necessarily have to be a zero-sum kind of game.Zach: [cha-ching sfx] No, you're absolutely right. [both laugh] You know, so you talked about mentorship. Can you talk a little bit about, you know--like, let's say you had three points. Like, what would your three points of advice be for women of color who are looking to get into entrepreneurship?Melanie: Ooh, that's--just three? [laughs] It's hard because the community that I work with is primarily black women, and just to see the way that we have so much--we give so much to others and we are very afraid of giving to ourselves. So I think the first point would be making sure that you don't forget to prioritize yourself, right? So, like, even as a business owner, your job is to, you know, work with your clients, work with your customers, making sure that you're providing a product or service for them that makes them happy, but also you need to take care of your own business, right? So do you have your business processes lined up? Do you have your business strategy outlined? Do you have all of the fundamental things that you need to be able to grow your business? So that's definitely number one. Number two is don't be afraid to support your fellow sister. I'm all about the retweeting and the sharing and the, you know, posting on my stories of everybody and anybody's business that I know about, because it doesn't take any food off of my plate, right? Like, just being able to support and promote the people that I know that are out here hustling as well. It's amazing to me how many people talk about supporting and how the community needs to support more, but they don't press that Share button or they don't press that Like button or they--you know? And so it's just, you know, work on building up that habit of sharing and leaving reviews and all that kind of stuff, 'cause those are the ways that you can support black-owned businesses for free. And then I think last is don't be afraid to ask for help. I think that is one of the things that, you know, for me especially, I had to learn to ask for help, right? So even--and that's as small or as big as building a team. If you have people that can support you in building your business, then you're able to run faster, then you're able to do more, but if you cannot even bring yourself to say, "Okay, I need help," and figure out the areas that you need help with and then be able to close your eyes and let go of it and let them actually help you, you just create a lot of stress and strain for yourself. And so I think those would be my three points.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Just a small Flex bomb. Nothing too crazy, you know what I'm saying? Just a little bit of something, you know what I'm saying? Just a little 10-piece for 'em, you know what I'm saying? Anyway, I definitely agree, [laughs] and I--you're spot on, especially when you talked about, like, just sharing, retweeting, you know what I'm saying, giving 5 stars. What's up? What's up, listeners? Melanie: Nudge nudge. [laughs]Zach: Nudge nudge, you know what I'm saying? Y'all see me. You hear me. If you're listening to this right now, you know you have to be giving me 5 stars. Okay. All right, back to this.Melanie: [laughs] And then [you come back?] Come back every time. [laughs]Zach: Right, right. Download numbers going up. 5 stars staying the same. What's going on? Come on. We've got a disconnect. [laughs] Nah, but you're absolutely right, and I just love the advice. So, you know, what I like about MINWO is the fact that y'all are building a true community of black and brown women entrepreneurs, right? And this type of thing requires trust, and so what strategies have you implemented to build and maintain that? 'Cause you talked about asking for help and supporting one another and kind of having your stuff in order. I mean, again, it takes a certain level of vulnerability. So what does it look like to create and maintain that?Melanie: Yeah, that's been a lot of what we've been learning over the last year. So the community you're referring to is Rialto. It's basically a platform for not only black business owners but black professional service providers to work together, connect, so that we're--you know, they're building each other's businesses essentially, and what I've found just in the last year of, you know, having a Slack team of these business owners is that it requires a lot of listening. Even though, you know, I know the things that I've learned in school and I'm like, "Hey, these are topics or things that you should know for your business," you can't necessarily start with, like, throwing scripture at them, right? You have to understand where they are, and you have to understand the walk that they've walked so far and meet them where they are, and for me that's been the most rewarding part. And what's also helped with that is that now what we do are monthly challenges. So this last month we just did a lean business model canvas challenge where everyone in the community worked together to work on their own individual lean business model canvasses, and then we had monthly meet-ups, which were virtual--which is a chance for anyone that wants to join, to get together, talk through, you know, their high points, their low points, what it was like for them to go through that experience, and then we also have a last little session where it's an open brainstorming session. So as a business owner, you don't often know too many other business owners, so to have that community of people that are living the same life that you are, that are making the same sacrifices that you are to bring about a vision, I think that's the part where you really start to build that trust in that community. It's from knowing that "Okay, they're not just talking for talking's sake," right? Like, "They're actually going through it too."Zach: No, that's real. And, you know, you're right. You can know everything in the world, but if people don't trust you, they don't really believe, you know, that you're really listening to them, they're just--it's gonna go in one ear and out the other. So look, where can folks learn more about MINWO?Melanie: Yeah. So we have a company website, minwo.co. That's M-I-N-W-O dot co, and that's where you can learn more about Rialto, the community that I mentioned, and then also Financial Formation, which is the personal finance consulting that I also do. Or you can go to my personal website, melanuschi.com, and that's where you can find more about personal finance consulting, business consulting, and anything else that you're interested in that's related to black wealth or black business.Zach: [coin sfx] And there it is, you know what I'm saying? [both laugh]Melanie: I'm loving these. [laughs]Zach: I'm saying, right? I'm trying to tell you. It's like Living Corporate--so you remember that Salt Bae meme? But we're, like, sprinkling, like, sound effects on the jaunt, you know what I'm saying? Like, we're really out here, you know? It's really fun. [both laugh] This has been a really great discussion, and I want to thank you for coming on the show. Before we go though, do you have any shout-outs? Anybody you're working with? Any other projects you want to mention?Melanie: Yeah. No, I really just want to shout-out the ladies that I've been working with on MINWO and Rialto for the last--I have business owners that are with me from literally Day 1, before we had a website, before we had any kind of anything. So Sydney [?] with Part and Parcel, Alexis Coates from LOTUS Creations, Teddy Renee [?] from TeddyRenee.com [?]. Those ladies have really supported me literally from Day 1, and so I just want to shout them out and say thank you.Zach: Man, I know they're thanking you too. [both laugh] We appreciate you again, and yeah, look, y'all, that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Living DASH corporate dot com, you know what I'm saying? Or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. You know what I'm saying? We're out here, okay? We just don't have, you know, livingcorporate.com 'cause Australia got the domain, you know? We've got all the domains. Australia has the main livingcorporate.com domain looking at us like [haha sfx], and I'm just like--I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do at this point, but, you know, one day, mark my words--y'all, join me in prayer. We're gonna be big enough. The brand will be brolic enough one day to get that domain. Okay, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, and that does it for us on the show. You've been listening to Melanie Akwule, founder of MINWO. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of speaking with Porter Braswell, co-founder and CEO of Jopwell, to learn more about the company and to hear his story behind its creation. Jopwell is the leading career advancement platform for Black, Latinx, and Native American students and professionals - check them out! Porter shares a bit about the work Jopwell is doing to encourage inclusive cultures within institutions that black and brown folks are trying to enter and a whole lot more.Connect with Porter on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter!Check out his book, Let Them See You: The Guide for Leveraging Your Diversity at Work, on Amazon!Learn more about Jopwell at their website, and connect with them on social media! LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, FacebookTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? And welcome to Living Corporate. You know what we are. We're talking about real talk in a corporate world. Now, look, I come on here, and I typically will say "What's up, y'all?" But to be honest with y'all I'm a little nervous, 'cause, you know, every time we come at y'all we're coming to you with a really great guest, but this guest is a little bit--you know what? Let me not do that, 'cause we've had a lot of really great guests, right? Like, we've had J. Prince. We've had Chris Moreland. We've had Jennifer Brown. We've had DeRay Mckesson. You know, we've had some big names. We've had Chilla Jones, the battle rapper. We've had people, right? We've had CEOs, executives. We've had Accenture - we spotlighted them a couple months ago. So okay, let me not get too starstruck, but a personal hero of mine, somebody I've been admiring from afar, we have Porter Braswell on the show today. Yo. Listen, if you don't know about Porter Braswell, Porter Braswell is a Yale graduate and former Goldman Sachs associate who co-founded Jopwell.com, the leading career advancement platform for black, Latinx, and Native American students and professionals. Braswell frequently speaks about diversity in the workplace with Jopwell's corporate clients. He's been profiled in Fast Company, Forbes, TechCrunch, Vanity Fair, and Ad Week, and has received numerous rewards and recognitions, such as LinkedIn's Next Wave, Top Professionals 35 and Under, Ink Magazine's 30 Under 30, Fast Company's 100 Most Creative People in Business, Vanity Fair's--look, I'm getting loud, just getting excited, talking about all of this dude's accolades, but I'm really excited to have him on the show, and so with us--we have him, man. Porter, what's going on? How are you doing, man?Porter: [laughs] That's a very generous introduction. I appreciate it.Zach: Well, look, it's great to have you on the show, man. Look, not to put too much sauce on it, but, you know, you're the man, right? You graduated from Yale. You know, you hooped all four years. Now, I have a question for you, 'cause I looked all around--were you, like--you look like a two-guard. What was your position?Porter: [laughs] I was a point guard. Definitely the point guard.Zach: Okay. Now, look, were you the--now, let me ask you this, were you the POINT guard, or were you, like--like, what style? Are you a facilitator? Or are you more like the--or are you kind of like a Russell Westbrook type where you're just out there?Porter: Well, you know what? So I was a scoring guard, and if I could go back in time I would've made me way more of a facilitator, recognizing that, you know, almost 6'1", I'm not gonna go to the league as a scoring guard, and so--I feel like nowadays people draw their inspiration from, like, a Steph or whatever, but when I was growing up it was Allen Iverson and, like, you scored as a point guard. And you still score as a guard now of course, but--Zach: But it's different though.Porter: Yeah. You know, like, a step-back three-point shooter. Like, you can get away with that now. When I was playing, you had to go to the hoop and finish. Zach: Yeah. No, you're absolutely right.Porter: Yeah. I would've [?] my game after other people, [laughs] but it worked outZach: [laughs] Well, look, let's talk about this, right? So, like, you know, what point did you realize that diversity, inclusion and equity was, like, important enough to transfer and transition from Goldman Sachs to create Jopwell? Like, was there a specific moment that rung out to you? Like, what did that look like?Porter: Yeah. So basically when I was--when I was working at Goldman, at the time I was there for about three years, and I was a product of the diversity recruiting efforts starting back in high school. In high school I spent two summers interning at Morgan Stanley via diversity recruiting initiatives, and then at Yale I spent three summers interning at Goldman Sachs, all via diversity initiatives, and so my whole life, up until that point in time, was about diversity and inclusion, and that's where I found my opportunities. And buying and selling currencies, while fulfilling, it wasn't the fulfillment I was looking for. I wanted to do something that I felt was more impactful, something that I felt I was uniquely qualified to do and something that was solving, like, a real pain point--solving a real challenge that people or companies were facing. And so with those ingredients, I took a step back and recognized that diversity recruiting and inclusion was a massive pain point for corporate America. It was something I was uniquely qualified to solve, and I was incredibly passionate about it, and so I decided that my life's focus was gonna be on building more diverse and inclusive organizations and doing it through a tech company - that became Jopwell, and I think that's really important because we took a traditional non-profit model but made it into a for-profit tech thing because we're solving real pain points of companies, and we wanted to basically build a competitive atmosphere, like any other tech company, where you're disrupting an industry and you want to win at it. And so we took that approach, and, you know, I'm very thankful that my life's work and my passion and my actual day-to-day job all align with each other.Zach: ["ow" sfx] Man, I'm really thankful for it too, right? Like I said--I told you, like, right before we got on, like, it's been incredible because Jopwell hasn't really been around that long, right? Like, y'all launched in 2014, right? But at the same time, like, it was so disruptive, right? Like, it was, like, so--I remember when Jopwell came around, and I just remember, like, literally--three years ago even--I was just looking around and I was like, "What is this?" And I signed up. I'm in the Well, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm engaged, right? But you're right, the platform itself doesn't come across--and I think it's interesting balance, right? Because y'all are providing, like, a profit service, but it doesn't come across like y'all are--what's the word? Like, bartering in people, right? Like, you're actually building community while connecting these folks to, like, opportunities. Like, that's really cool to me.Porter: So the foundational thing of what we do is that we build community, and we can only build community if we are very authentic and understanding of the community, which we are given I'm from the community. Zach: Right.Porter: And that is a hard thing to do, and if you can build the trust of a community, then you can represent brands behind it. And so Jopwell has been able to carve out this area where brands recognize they need to rely on us to authentically connect and engage with this audience that we are a part of, and in doing so we want to deliver the most incredible experience and opportunities for the community. So as long as we keep the community at the center of what we do, we'll be fine as a business, but we're not transactional. We don't think of the community in that way. Like, again, we are from and a part of the community, so we know the pain points, and so we've just--we took a different approach, you know? I think that's the simplest way to describe it. We took a different approach. We took a step back. I'm not from a recruiting background, and I think that helped me, because we looked at this problem in a way in which others didn't look at it before.Zach: Man. You know what? It's 100%, 'cause it's interesting because I don't think--it's easy to, like, understate that when you come up in, like, these corporatized recruiting platforms, it just--it naturally skews your perspective and creates blind spots for you. It doesn't matter what your particular--I mean, your ethnicity and gender plays a part in that, but I'm just talking about the culture of recruiting is often times so regimented that it creates a variety of blind points that you're not necessarily even thinking about--like, recruitment experience--as much. Like, you're thinking about it from a "check the box" perspective, but there's that personal touch that rarely is really considered. And so 100%. I definitely agree that you not having that formal recruiting background gives you a bit more insight. Porter, it also reminds me that, like, the people who are often best suited to solve for inclusion efforts for black and brown people are often black and brown people, right? Like, you had--you were a hooper at Yale. You then were a Goldman Sachs employee and a Rising Star, and then you still, because of your experiences and your insights and your passions, were able to shape that into having really unique insights, enough that you were able to create a whole platform from that. Do you know what I mean?Porter: Yeah. Well, I think that everyone has a unique story, and everybody has unique contexts in which they come to the table with, and it's a responsibility of diverse individuals to expose others to the different contexts. Now, for me, that allowed myself to build the business, but that doesn't have to manifest itself in a business. Like, leveraging your diversity as an asset, you could just expose people to a different way of thinking, which helps any organization, which is the power of diversity of course. So leveraging your diversity doesn't have to lead to a business, but leveraging your diversity can lead to disruption and change, and that is a responsibility that diverse individuals have, and for me I felt that responsibility to build this platform.Zach: So, you know, you talked about this, and it's a really good segue--you know, Porter, it's almost like you're media-trained. It's almost like you do this often, you know? But you talked about leveraging your diversity. That reminds me really of your latest book, "Let Them See You: The Guide for Leveraging Your Diversity at Work." It was just published. And this book carries a theme of personal responsibility, and of course that's critical, right? So, like, talking about how you leverage your diversity to create, to your point, disruption, change, within whatever context that you're in, but with that in mind, can we also talk about the work that you've done personally, and the work Jopwell is doing, to encourage inclusive cultures within these institutions that black and brown folks are trying to enter?Porter: Yeah. So writing a book is a really interesting process. [laughs] I'll start by that, saying that. So when I wrote the book, I decided that I wanted to write a book to professionals of color, because that's, again, what I'm--that's what I know. That's the group I'm a part of. And when you write a book, what's really difficult is that you have to pick one audience [to?] talk to one reader, and you have to make sure that you are speaking in a way that the reader can follow you. So when I chose to write this book, I chose my audience to be the Jopwell member. I chose to write to a professional of color, and in that conversation I am basically mentoring and saying, "As a person of color, regardless of your environment, this is how you leverage your diversity as an asset, and you have a unique opportunity to do so." What I wasn't able to do in the book was talk about what companies can do to create environments where people can actually leverage their diversity as an asset, because if you try to [?] in one it becomes very complicated. You can't--the reader can't follow along. So the book is about what we as professionals of color can do, but now there needs to be a conversation about what can companies do to create environments where this can actually happen? And so a lot of what we do from a Jopwell perspective to companies is that we discuss with them different strategies and ways to think about building diverse, inclusive, and equitable environments, and it really starts [at] the top down, meaning that, like, the senior most people, the CEO, the board level, they have to be committed and bought in. Companies have to clearly define and articulate what diversity even means in the context of their organization. Are you talking about ethnicity? Are you talking about gender? Sexual orientation? Socioeconomic background? What are you talking about? Because to build a culture that is inclusive--well, inclusive of whom? You know? And I think that's a really important concept. And then how do you measure if it's working? And so there are a lot of steps that companies have to take. Unfortunately, a lot of companies don't feel comfortable having uncomfortable conversations and they want to jump to solutions without really thinking through "What does success look like?" So at Jopwell, when we work with a company, we take them through those stages. We work with them to define what success looks like. And diversity and inclusion is not, like, a 1-year initiative. It's gonna be ingrained in your culture moving forward. So it's a long-term play, and so there's a lot of work that we do with companies that's less tech-focused--it's a lot of human capital--but because we're doing that at work, we can help the community find opportunities that they should be able to thrive in.Zach: And so let's talk about that. I want to press a little bit more on what you said about, like, you know, you stated that a lot of times--that part of the inclusive culture for folks to actually leverage their diversity well is in organizations being comfortable having uncomfortable conversations, and I've noticed that too, that, like, a lot of times if you mention the word race, or you mention the word gender, or you mention any of these words that indicate other, you're right, organizations will often kind of go to, "Well, we're just gonna do this, this, this, this, and this." It almost becomes, like, a--like they're putting out a fire, right? It's more reactionary and it's not solution-oriented, and you talked about people being comfortable with those uncomfortable dialogues. What does it look like for Jopwell to help organizations work through some of that discomfort?Porter: Yeah. So what we tell companies is that if there's something that's happening in the world or in the country that disproportionately affects a certain community and you have that community as employees within your organization, how do you express that in a way that's, like, non-polarizing or non-political? Because you should treat your colleagues and your peers as you would want to be treated. So if you're from a community and something's happening within that community that's, like, on national news and you don't address it as an organization, like, of course that employee won't bring their whole self and their authentic self to work, and if they don't bring their authentic self and their whole self to work you're not gonna get the most out of them. So how do you create [environments] where these potentially uncomfortable conversations can occur in a way that it's respectful and that employees understand that the workforce that you work in is very inclusive and these conversations are just a part of the fabric of what makes the organization's culture special? So, like, let's start small, right? And so thinking about topics and news conversations that are happening, how do you start to address those things? Now, we've seen many companies do really interesting things on the back of our recommendations when these things occur. Some companies have hosted town halls where they bring all hands, and, you know, it's a conversation of what's going on and what's the position of a company around certain topics that they cannot ignore. And the feedback has been incredible, naturally so, from the attendees, because they felt like they were seen for the first time. And then again, like, if companies aren't used to doing those things, it can be potentially uncomfortable. So that's an important concept.Zach: And kind of going into that, right? And I shared this a little bit earlier. What excites me about Jopwell is that it's not a job board - it's actually a community, and I talked about this earlier, but it's a community built by and built for underrepresented folks, and, like, that comes with a lot. So I think about Living Corporate--and Living Corporate and Jopwell are not the same, right? Like, the missions are different, but there's some similarity in that we exist as a resource for underrepresented voices, and I think that comes with a lot. I think for Living Corporate it's unique because we're really just here on, like, the employee side. Like, we're just here to amplify voices, but we're not--we don't necessarily have, like, the same connected, like, broad community that you have, and we're also of course not managing, like, tons of corporate relationships, and so I'm really curious about, like, what does it look like for you and your team Porter, to manage the emotional labor of, like, carrying and advocating for and building this platform to amplify and support black and brown folks while at the same time managing, like, the business relationships that come with that?Porter: Yeah. So it can get very complicated, but we always--because [we work?] for the community, the community knows what to expect from Jopwell and companies know what to expect from Jopwell. So we don't speak to the community any differently than we talk to companies, and we don't talk to companies any differently than we talk to the community. Like, we are very consistent in who we are. For us, we always do what we believe is the best for the community, and Jopwell takes stands on things that we feel passionately about that affect the community, regardless of what companies think. So a perfect example is during the last election, when Trump won, we knew, positive or negative, there was gonna be a very strong reaction from them. So even though we're a tech company, we knew we had to host a town hall, or create a forum, where people can share their perspectives and how they feel. So we hosted a town hall in New York City. We had, you know, several hundred people show up. No real agenda other than hearing the perspective of the community, and people shared how they felt, and just providing that forum, I think, was beneficial, and we felt that we had a responsibility to the community. So we know if we're thinking these things, others are thinking these things at work, so there needs to be an outlet where they can have these conversations about all of the stuff that's going on. And so, again, we have to be very committed and very--and always bring it back to we are a community-first class [?]. The two things that we believe are best for the community--again, as long as we're consistent and then companies know that, the community knows that, and Jopwell will always do what's best for the community.Zach: Man, I love that, man, you know? I just--and I appreciate it, and it feels--like, to your point around consistency, like, it's really cool--'cause I've seen other... I don't know. It's just interesting, right? And, like, I've talked about this to other, like, diversity and inclusion leaders. I think that we're seeing this pattern of some of these spaces becoming a bit more authentic in their language and in their presentation, and I really do believe that Jopwell is leading the cause in that, right? Because a lot of times when you have, like, these spaces that are, like, led by predominant majority folks, they can sometimes come across lukewarm or silent on certain spaces, and then it--like, it creates an inconsistent brand, because it's like, "Okay, well, if you're for diversity and inclusion, you should have a voice on this topic because it's impacting the people that you claim to advocate for." And I do recall content coming out around the election, and I do remember just being, like--feeling really affirmed by that. So question for you - you talked a little bit about forums. You recently hosted Jopwell's first ever summit, Jopwell Talks. It looked like an awesome event. Can you tell us a little bit more about the day and what you hope attendees took away from the summit?Porter: Yeah, absolutely. So we were so thrilled to host that event. Basically, Ryan and I, my co-founder and I, we've gone to diversity and inclusion conferences time after time after time over the last, you know, 4.5 years or so of building Jopwell. It was frustrating to me that I didn't leave feeling inspired [for, like, what] tomorrow brings me, and we are incredibly fortunate that throughout the Jopwell journey there have been many mentors and celebrities that have joined the movement with us, and we felt that we could provide these trailblazers [?] a stage to share stories of how they got to where they are and the things they've learned along the way that the audience can recognize that there's no linear path to success and that these individuals that we can highlight, we felt that it's not often that you get access to these folks. So we wanted to create an incredible environment, so we rented out the Brooklyn Museum. We wanted to have the most outstanding speakers, so we went after [sticks?] - Gayle King, Dr. Michael Lomax, Antonio Lucio, the CMO of Facebook, Edith Cooper, [?]. I mean, just incredible folks. [?] loved hosting it. And from these individuals, we were able to share their story and highlight them in such a way that the audience could follow along and let the conversations breathe. So we didn't have panels. There were no breakout sessions. It was amazing content from amazing individuals, and we crowd-sourced some of the questions. You were involved in this incredible environment listening to these folks, and what I've received as feedback from people, they left feeling motivated and excited to [see] tomorrow, and they saw these folks, and that was the goal of the day, and so we're very thankful that people were excited to attend and that they wanted [to be a] part of it, and, you know, we plan on doing a lot more moving forward.Zach: Man, that's incredible. And look, Porter, you know that we appreciate you. Super thankful that you were able to join on the platform. In fact, you know, it's pretty customary. We got to. You know, we typically drop air horns. We drop 'em at the beginning, but I got too excited and nervous 'cause you're on our show and so I didn't drop 'em. So I'ma go ahead and drop the air horns right here--[air horns sfx]--and I'ma go ahead and give you a Flex bomb--[Flex bomb sfx]--and I'ma give you some coins, 'cause you been dropping dimes. [coin sfx] And I just want to thank you, man. I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Before we let you go though, any parting words or shout-outs?Porter: No, [but] I appreciate the work that you all [do]. You know, the more that we lift each other up, the more opportunity exists for everybody, and this is not a zero-sum game, and I get very frustrated when I'm the only person of color in a room, and--again, the conversations need to keep happening, and that's the only way we're gonna start changing things. So thank you for building this and for allowing individuals to hear stories at scale. It's what I need and needed when I was thinking about what I wanted to do next, and it's not often where you can get access to folks and really hear their authentic stories. And so it's an incredible platform that you're building and, you know, thank you for doing that.Zach: Oh, my gosh. Man, I'm about to blush over here. Yo. [laughs] Listen, y'all, it's been Zach. You've been listening to Living Corporate. We are real talk in a corporate world. You make sure you check us out on Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram at @LivingCorporate. Make sure you just check us out anywhere. You know, just Google us, you know what I mean? We're not Jopwell level, but we're out here. You just Google "Living Corporate." You want to check out our website? Check out livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, living-corporate--please say the dash--Porter, do you know we have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com, man? We've got all them domains. I'm trying to get it, man. Australia has livingcorporate.com, but we're gonna get there one day, man. Let's see here. I think that does it for us. This has been Zach again, and you've been listening to Porter Braswell - general beast, but specifically for this podcast, CEO and co-founder of Jopwell. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach speaks with Lionel Lee, Zillow Group's Head of Diversity Engagement, and they discuss his unique personal career journey up to this point. Lionel details what influence and coalition-building look like in his position, and he also shares some of the things that he's been able to do at Zillow that he believes have helped to improve the sense of belonging and inclusiveness for black and brown folks in the workplace.Connect with Lionel on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTSheneisha: Hey, y'all. Sheneisha here with Living Corporate. As you know, we're about having real talk in a corporate world. With that in mind, before we get into this amazing discussion with Lionel Lee, we want to let you know this content makes mention of violence, which may be upsetting, so if you're listening with some little ones, discretion is advised. Zach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with the Living Corporate podcast, and of course you know what we do. We have interviews, conversations, right, that serve to amplify the voices of black and brown folks at work. And what do I mean by that? I mean we typically have black and brown folks, leaders, executives, creatives, entrepreneurs, you name it, on the show, having real conversations about real topics, and today is no different. We actually have with us today a very special guest. I'm very excited to speak with this person. I've been in contact with him for a little while, and I'm excited just to, like, get him on the show, 'cause, like, we've been texting, and then we talk on LinkedIn, and then, you know, we've been trying to coordinate. Even today we were coordinating back and forth. Lionel Lee. Lionel Lee is the head of diversity engagement at Zillow Group. He provides career development support to underrepresented employees and works with executives to develop equity and belonging policies to improve employee experiences. He also serves as a connecter between employees and community organizations. Prior to joining Zillow Group, he worked in talent acquisition, sourcing candidates across technology and banking industries. Okay, so really quick y'all, all of that to say he's by the people, for the people, you see what I'm saying? Okay. Helping communities has always been a constant throughout his life. Lionel has created and developed community groups that promote health and wellness. He's worked with HIV/AIDS education groups, substance abuse/addiction organizations, as well as health groups for youth. Lionel immigrated to the United States from Korea at age 5. His experiences growing up in south-central Los Angeles and later in the projects of Honolulu, Hawaii--I'm gonna ask a question about that in a little bit--helped nurture his passion for community building. With all that being said, Lionel, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Lionel: I'm doing well, man. Thank you. Appreciate it.Zach: Now, look, you know, of course I've got all of these questions for you and everything, but the first thing I gotta ask - you talked about the projects of Honolulu. Hawaii has projects?Lionel: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Honolulu has projects, and growing up there in the '70s and partial '80s, yeah, it was kind of rough, 'cause most people don't know about that, 'cause what they see about Honolulu and hear about Honolulu is it's just a paradise, but it's not really a paradise for all. You know, the level of poverty there, still to this day, is [amazing?], but back then it was like--where I grew up, in Kalihi--Kalihi is a town right outside of Waikiki, and it's--the projects are called Kuhio Park Terrace. We call it KPT, or Killer Park Terrace. Kill People Today. That's what it was, and I lived on the 16th floor, and I had to actually walk up the stairs to get to my apartment because there was a young lady that got her head cut off in the elevator, so the parents and kids, you know, catch the elevator. And then, you know, you have the same stuff that you have in a lot of different projects. You know, you have a lot of drug abuse, and, you know, you have people defecating in the stairwells. So that was the smell you walked into every single day. The crazy thing is that the dude that cut off the woman's head lived two doors down from me. And he kept it. Kept the head. Zach: What?!?!!!!!!????????????Lionel: He kept the head. But, um...Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm sorry. Wait, wait, wait. You said he kept the head?Lionel: He kept the head. He was--he was a Cambodian dude, and he was just mentally disturbed, you know? He just had some serious stuff going on, and he kept the head, and we found out, like, you know, two weeks after it had happened, you know? That was--it was a very different kind of place. Very violent. You can still look up--actually, you can go on YouTube and look up videos from Kuhio Park Terrace, and they'll show you videos of what it's like at KPT to this day.Zach: To this day. That is--that is--wow, that is shocking. I'ma tell you, you know, Lionel, in your short 3 minutes of being on the Living Corporate podcast, you have given us the most gangsta introduction we've ever had. And I'm not making light of anything. I'm just taken--I'm very taken aback by this. Wow.Lionel: Yeah, I don't have the typical--you know, I don't have the pedigree of someone that's in my position, definitely. I'm not--you know, I just wasn't raised like that. I wasn't--you know, I didn't think I was gonna go to college. I didn't go to college. I didn't get a degree. You know, I had to work and do all of that kind of stuff. It's just I was given certain opportunities and took advantage of every single one, you know? Made the very best that I could, and I've always had a tremendous work ethic, you know? Just, you know, been out of my house since I was 17 years old. I've lived in my car for, like, three days, just so I can be out here, you know, just doing my thing. You know, just doing my thing and just trying to keep it moving.Zach: Wow. Well, kind of to start there, let's talk a little bit about that. So you've started on that path, but kind of talk to us about your journey from Hawaii to the head of diversity and engagement at Zillow. What did that look like?Lionel: I was a gogo dancer at one time. That was pretty weird. I've done everything, man. Like, I can do stuff around my house--like, right now I'm remodeling my house, and my kids will be like, "Where'd you learn how to do that?" And I'm like, "Man, it wasn't nothing about learning. I just had to survive." Zach: Wait, wait, wait. So let's take a step back. You said you were--you were a what dancer?Lionel: I was a gogo dancer for a little bit. [Zach laughs] Yeah, when I was, like, young, you know, and that kind of stuff. So I was raised extremely religious. My grandfather is a Baptist minister, and I was raised in the church, so we didn't go out and do that kind of stuff a lot, you know? And I went to, like, school dances every once in a while, and I always liked to dance, so as soon as I got out of my house and, you know, I didn't have nobody telling me what I could and could not do, you know, I got caught up in the dance club scene for a while, and I was going there a lot, and the dude that owned the club, you know, he asked me one day if, you know, I'd want to just come in and, you know, get paid for it, right? But it was like--I don't know if you remember. I don't know how old you are, but--Zach: 29.Lionel: There was this one dance that I was really good at. It was The Prep. I don't know if you remember what The Prep is.Zach: Nah, what's The Prep?Lionel: It's just a dance that, you know, like, a lot of black folks did, you know, back then. You know, I'd have to show it to you in order for you to know what it was, but people around my age group, they know what that dance is, and I was really good at it. You can be extremely creative with it, you know? So the dude just kind of, you know--and I didn't paid, like, a lot. It was--like, that was my part-time gig. My full-time gig was, you know, managing the Church's Fried Chicken, which was down the street from the club, right? So after work at Church's Fried Chicken I would shoot over there, and back then they would throw some, you know, neon sweater or some shit on me, and then I'd get on there and, you know, do my thing. [both laugh] So yeah, that's a snippet of my background, but the way that I got into where I'm at now is--the funny thing is I met a dude on a basketball court, right, like, when I was in my late twenties, and it was one of those stereotypical things, you know? I got into a fight with this dude on the basketball court, you know? Like, you know, you get into a fight on the basketball court, they find out you can fight, and then all of a sudden everybody wants to be your friend, right? So dude wanted to be my friend. He was a white dude, and I had never had too much interaction with white people honestly, and definitely not on a personal, you know, like, friendship level. That just wasn't the way I was raised. So I was kind of cautious, and at that time I worked for an organization called Street Outreach Services, and it was an HIV/AIDS prevention organization. It was led by this amazing sister from Brooklyn. Her name was Amani Wood. She recently passed, like, a couple years ago, and I consider her one of the strongest individuals I've ever met and was lucky enough to have her as a mentor for a very large portion of my life. But anyway, she and I were working together, and then I came up with this crazy idea that what we should be doing is we should be documenting, you know, crack addicts and crack dealers under the age of 18, 'cause that's a group that we were not capturing. So the city of Seattle liked the idea. My organization liked the idea. So I ended up doing that for about 2.5 years. So I was going into crack houses and stuff, like, you know, at 3:00 a.m., you know, 4:00 a.m., and dealing with a whole bunch of kids, and I dealt with the kids--I mean, I had one sister, her name was Beautiful, literally, and she was 13 years old, you know? She was 13 years old with a baby and she was a crack addict, and she was a crack dealer. So, you know, I had to deal with that, and that kind of stuff is emotionally extremely taxing, and the--I just couldn't do it as--I couldn't put as much of myself into it as I was, so I was starting to get burnt out, and dude--you know, he was a recruiter, this white dude that I had met, right? He was like, "Hey, you ever thought about, like, recruiting?" And I was like, "I don't even know what that is, man." And he brought me up to his office to show me what he did, and, like, a lot of young black men and young black women and kids that come from, you know, lesser economic areas, you know, when I saw a computer I thought, "Nah, I can't do that," you know? 'Cause, you know, "Computers are magic, right?" They're not meant for me. They're meant for, like, geniuses, right? You know, "Black kids can't do math." You know, "Black kids can't do this kind of stuff," and I bought into a lot of that. I bought into a lot of that kind of stuff. But I had a two-year-old child, so I had to do something, you know? 'Cause I wasn't making enough money, and I wanted him to have a better lifestyle than I did growing up. So I took him up on it, and, you know, I shot across the bridge over into Bellevue from Seattle, and then--I don't know if you know Seattle, but in Seattle you have east side and west side, and when you go across that bridge, man, it's completely different. Extremely affluent. Very, very white. You know, as a brother back in the, you know, '90s, you couldn't be on that side if you weren't an athlete, right, or somebody else, you know, that they recognized, because if you were a black person that they didn't recognize, the cops would give you a hard time. Like, literally. They would follow you around and stuff, right? But I went over there and I interviewed, and I interviewed with, like, nine blonde-haired, blue-eyed women, man, sitting around the table. I was like, "Man, I don't know if I want to do this," and they offered me the job, you know? And I was like, "Whoa, what do I do now?" And at that same time I was actually interviewing with the fire department, and walking out of that office--I drove, like, this beat up 1984 Volvo, you know? And when I say it was beat up, I mean it was *beat up*. There was 100 and something thousand miles on it. The paint was peeling, you know? That kind of stuff, you know? I put on the best clothes that I had at that time.Zach: That was a bucket.Lionel: It was a bucket. Man, it was a buck-et. And I'm walking out, and every car in the parking lot was like Mercedes, Audis, BMWs, you know, that kind of stuff, and I was like, "I don't know, maybe I can do this." And so I accepted and started there, and struggled, man--I struggled a lot. I mean, I struggled so bad the first three months. There's a very large organization. It's called EDP Contract Services. Now I think they're called TAC Worldwide, and it's one of the largest recruiting organizations in the world. At that time, I forget exactly how many people they had, but I know that at one time I was ranked, like, something like 2000th or something out of the company of recruiters, and by the time--I had to make a decision at one point because--you know, because I was basically told that I could be pretty successful in this if I got the street out of my voice, right? So I started [?]--you know, I went home and was, like, frustrated over it, you know? And my girl at that time, she was pretty hood too, so she was like, "[BLEEP] them. You know, we can sue them. Blah, blah, blah, blah," you know? But I went to bed with my two-year-old son, you know, and I was like, "Man, I've got to do something." So I made up my mind. You know, I made up my mind that okay, well, this is what I'm gonna do, and I walked into the office the next day--I got there at 6:00 in the morning. Nobody was there. And I didn't leave until, like, 8:00 at night, and then I did that for, like, a whole year, and I became #2 in the company, and my income went up something like 300% in a year. Zach: Goodness gracious.Lionel: Mm-hmm. And so I figured out that yeah, I can do this. And then I went to--excuse me, sorry. I went to San Francisco right after that. I got recruited by a staffing firm there. I didn't like them too much, so I started my own staffing firm. We did $2.5 million in our second year of business, and that was just, like, you know, three of us, right? And then we added some people on and that kind of stuff. Then I came back to Seattle and, again, you know, got recruited by another company and became the manager for recruiting for a startup during the dot-com era. I was killing it there, then the dot-com bubble burst, and then I went to Washington Mutual as their diverse executive recruiter, and that was probably one of the worst work experiences I've ever had, 'cause what happened--what happened was they wanted this person, but one of the head people in this department didn't want this person. They didn't feel the need for a diversity executive recruiter. So they waited for her to go on maternity leave and then, behind her back, hired me, right? So my first day of work I'm walking down the hall and this woman walks up to me and she goes, "Who are you?" And I said, "Oh, I'm Lionel Lee." And she goes, "Well, what do you do?" And I said, "Well, you know, I run diversity executive recruitment here," and she just looked at me, and I got this, like--it was chilling. Like, this look was crazy, and then the next thing I know, man, like, seven months later or eight months later, you know, maybe close to a year later, you know, the whole group was disbanded and we all had to leave and, you know, go do our own thing. And it was kind of crazy too. The way that they told you was, you know, they asked you to come in for an early morning meeting. I went in for an early morning meeting and they had HR there, and they said it's disbanded.Zach: So where does Zillow come into play?Lionel: 2007 hit, man. 2007, 2008, 2009, you know, and I went through all of my money, and I had to get back to work, you know? So I joined a really small recruiting firm that was, you know, bullshit. They didn't know what they were doing. [both laugh] But then there was this other recruiting firm that I really wanted and I went and joined them, and they were amazing, and--that's one of the crazy things too, the dude that hired me--he's, like, this really young--comparatively. I think he's, like, you know, close to 40 now--Republican white dude, right? And he hired me on to the company, and I go in there and I'm on the phone the first day, and he said "Hey, Lionel, can I [?] you for a second?" And I was like, "Yeah, what's up?" And he goes, "Man, who the hell is that on the phone?" And I was like, "What are you talking about?" He goes, "Do you know you sound white?" And I was like, "What?" He goes, "Yeah. When you talk to me normally, you know, we're fine, but whenever you get on the phone you sound white," and it's because of what I learned in the earlier part of my career.Zach: Code switching, man. Yeah.Lionel: I was code switching. And I told him, "Well, you know, that's how--" And he goes, "Nah, man. I don't think that's why you're successful. I would really love to see you be you. I got enough white dudes in my office. That's why I hired you." [Zach laughs] And I was like, "Oh, okay," and then I started really, like, trying to understand what just happened, and the reason I ended up here at Zillow Group--I stayed there for, like, five years, six years, right? And I ended up killing it there. I was always either #1 or #2. And the reason I ended up here is that the person who had hired me on at Washington Mutual, she became the vice president of talent acquisition here at Zillow, and she--I started my own company after a while, again, right, and she was one of my clients, and she asked me to come in, and she said, "Lionel," you know--this was, like, 2016. "Lionel, we're really trying to do this diversity thing, man, but we don't know what we're doing." You know, "Would you want to help us?" And I said, "Well, I can put something together." You know, I talked about it with them a little bit. They wanted me to do it. I couldn't dedicate time to it 'cause I had my own staffing firm at that time and my staffing firm was doing extremely well, but what happened was that it kind of grabbed a part of me that I didn't know really existed. My experience in tech as a black man was horrible. I mean, it was horrible, so I decided that, you know, by doing this I would be given an opportunity to better the experiences of other people that are underrepresented in the tech space, right? 'Cause when I was starting out, you know, there was no other. You know, there was me. There was me, and I was probably the only one that I knew with the exception of, like, one or two that worked in other agencies. But it was me, right? And it was horrible. I hated it. I mean, I couldn't--there was no way that I could tell somebody that "Yeah, this is a good day." I woke up every single day begrudging going to work, and eventually I was able to push down to the point where I didn't realize that, you know, there was a part of me that was always anxious, right? And that's when I got a chance to change, you know, within this organization, and then what I'm hoping for is that this organization will be--you know, will be, like, a beacon for others to take a look at, right? Like, "What did they do to make a difference?" Right? 'Cause we did. We changed how we are as a company. We've changed the way that we're perceived. You know, people want to come to work here, you know? That kind of thing, and, you know, the brown and black folks here are much happier now than they were. We know that because I'm very data-driven, and we took some surveys and things like that that let us know that the things we're doing are working. But that's how I ended up in this position. And I was a consultant at first, and they--you know, we talked about 20 hours a week. 20 became 40. It became 60. It became an obsession, you know? Because I--you know, I was like, "Ooh, I get a chance to--"Zach: Really move the needle in some way, yeah.Lionel: Yeah. Not just move the needle, but, you know, just--you know, we talk a lot in those kind of terms, right? Like, "move the needle," you know, that kind of stuff, and the way that I looked at it was never really like that, you know? The way that I was looking at it was, you know, "Improve the day-to-day experience of the underrepresented worker going into the tech space." That was my--that's my driver, right? The way that I describe what I do is that my job is to make sure that everybody that comes to work is happy and feels like they belong. That's my job. That is my job, and I--I don't like to say I love my job, because I don't think in that way, but I'm extremely proud of what we've done here at Zillow Group. I'm extremely proud, and I'm hoping to continue on this path and, you know, continue to make us an employer of choice.Zach: [applause sfx] I mean, what can I say? I mean, I hear you. This is incredible. Look, I have another question, but I want to get into this really quick though. You talked about some of the things that y'all are doing here and, like, they've been serving well. What are some of those things that you've been able to do at Zillow that you believe have helped to improve the sense of belonging and inclusiveness for black and brown folks? Lionel: Well, that was the thing, right? 'Cause one of the things that they had asked me to do was go out and find best practices, and the crazy thing is that there were no best practices 'cause nobody was really killing it. Nobody's numbers said that they were killing it, right? So I had to come up with my own stuff, but what that gave me was green fields. So I could do a couple things. So one of the first things that I did is I was walking through the office one day--and we had this wall of speakers, right? And the speakers--I looked at that wall, and it's a pretty big wall of all of these, you know, headshots of all of these speakers that we've had come into the office, and I was like, "Damn, every single person on there is white." Like, literally. Like, every single person on there is white except for one brother that we had, and of course he was a football player, right?Zach: Of course. Of course.Lionel: Right? And I was like, "Come on, man." You know? So I changed that immediately. That was one of my goals, to change that, and I did that. You know, we brought in people like Van Jones. We brought in people that were from the Islamic community. We brought in people from the Latinx community. Totally changed that whole landscape, right? And then we started talking about, like, just simple things like events, you know? Because that's one of the things that tech companies are known for, right? We have these crazy-ass parties where everybody has a good time, but not everybody gets down like that, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't grow up that way, you know? I don't go out and--you know, I'm not one of those people that like to [imbibe?] in that way and that's how I party. That's not how I do. I like the music. I like to dance. I like that kind of stuff, you know? And I'm not saying that we're all the same, but there are certain foundational pieces that make us a little bit the same. [?], right? And so we started throwing, like, parties, but I would tell the dudes that came in--I started going out and creating relationships with external organizations that were representative of underrepresented groups within our company. So we had professional organizations that I went and made agreements with, and then they would come in and they would throw the parties. And they asked me, they said, "Well, how black do you want this to be?" [both laugh] And I was like, "I want it to be as black as you want to make it."Zach: Right. It needs to be black black, with a Q.Lionel: It needs to be, 'cause you have people here from, you know, predominantly black areas, right? You've got a kid that grew up in a predominantly black area. He goes to an HBCU, you know, does really well there, and then all of a sudden he's thrown into this, right, where he's one of--I think we're at, like, 9% or something like that, right? We're still improving in that area, right? And then he's just got to, like, hang out and do what these guys do? You know, why don't we give him some of what he had back home? You know, why don't we create a sense of community for him, you know what I mean? And we did that, and then we started taking a look at some of the things--and it's all from my own experience, right? One of the things that really bothered me is, like, when all of the brothers was getting shot, you know, I felt completely alone in the office, and I had nobody to talk to about it, right? And what we did is we started--we created a forum here where people can--when things like that happen, for example when the El Paso shooting happened recently, you know, we had a forum here inside the office where people from the Latinx community could get together, along with people that were not from that community but allies that were in positions of power and strength here at the company, we all got together and we had a conversation, and we, you know, basically video-taped everybody in from all the other offices, and we had this, you know, straight up conversation about what this feels like, and that made a difference in people's experience, right? And then we talked about "How do we do our recruiting?" We started taking a look at--I started taking a look at how we do the recruiting in the first place, right? Many of our people that come on board come on from internships, so how do we effect that? Well, we start creating more relationships with organizations that are representative of us. So we started a relationship with NSBE, the National Society of Black Engineers. We started a relationship with SHPE, Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers, right? And then we put into practice talking to the CTO, the chief technology officer, who is just--you know, he's cool, he's just really cool, and I gave him an a-ha moment when I took him to AfroTech, like, two years ago.Zach: Oh, yeah. Shout-out AfroTech. Shout-out Blavity. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Lionel: Yeah, by Blavity, right? And I took him--he was one of the only white dudes there, and I was like, "Look, you know, I'm gonna introduce you to some people. You're gonna have some good conversations, and then we're gonna talk about it afterwards," and he was like, "Cool," but he walks in and there's THOUSANDS of black people, man. Where people were telling him, "Oh," we can't be found, which is bullshit. Zach: It is, man. No, it is. It is so annoying, Lionel. Well, it's annoying and it's insulting and it's racist, right? So you said, "Well, we can't find this talent"--like, we're all over, and, like, look, AfroTech is an obvious one, but man, there are also, like, a lot of, like, local, like, groups, right? Like, there's all--if you go to any major city, there's some grassroots coding group that is black and brown, right? And honestly, even if you just take the time and look in the PWIs that you're recruiting, if you just look one more time, they're there too. Like, we're here. Lionel: Right, right. So what we did--he saw that, and we came back and he was like, "What do we do?" And I said, "Well, let's figure out some strategies," and what we started doing is we started making--'cause Boeing has doing been this forever, but Boeing's been going to NSBE and making offers on the spot, right? And so it was like, "Okay, well, let's do that," and we started doing that, and we started increasing our numbers because of that, right? And then those kids that were coming in as interns, we started converting them to full-time, and then on top of it their experience as workers here is real cool because, like, I'll walk by, you know, and I'll talk to 'em and be like, "Hey, what's happening, brother?" You know? "How you doing?" And they'll look at me like--Zach: Even that alone, which is small, right? It's huge to them.Lionel: It's small. It's really, really small, but it's so important, right? People gotta feel like they feel belong. People gotta feel like they're appreciated, right? That's what has to happen, and that's what we started doing. That's one of the things. I could go on and on, man. We've done--when I say I'm proud of the work that we've done here, I'm extremely proud of the work that we've done here.Zach: Rightfully so.Lionel: Yeah. The executives have been fully on board. You know, we also do this other thing where we understand the C-level, the C-Suite, has to be on board. So we do a thing called the MB Learning Series, which is twice a month. You know, we get together, myself, the senior VP of community and culture, and some other key individuals that are well-versed in this space. We'll get together with a bunch of people from the C-Suite, and we'll sit down and we'll talk for about an hour, an hour and a half, about whatever it is, right? It could be a current event that has impacted an underrepresented group, or it could be about something that they've encountered themselves, right, that they want to know more about, right? So we work with them, and they get to learn, they get to learn what's happening, and it changes their perspective and it changes the way that they go out and approach things and make decisions, right? We have our CEO--our CEO is, like, one of the only CEOs where, you know, in his signature file, you know, he has his pronouns, right? Because that's important, you know, to understand that not everybody identifies in that way. Understanding that people identify differently is extremely important, 'cause it puts you in a different place in your learning, in your journey, and that's how we got here. I mean, there's--you know, I could go on and on, but that would take up your whole segment.Zach: No, no, no. This is great, and look, Lionel, we'll just have you back. It's not a problem, man. We'll just have you--[both laugh] You'll just come on back. But it's interesting, really quickly, about the pronoun point, right? So, you know, some research that Living Corporate has been doing, you know what I'm saying, on our whitepaper--if you check us out on the website, you know, you'll see us on there, and we talk about the fact that, you know, 14% of millennials identify as trans or non-binary, right? So it's a real statistic.Lionel: Oh, it's a real statistic. It's real. And, you know, there's so many different groups of other people that do not feel like they belong. You know, they just--you know, especially with the current climate in our country today. That kind of stuff, the divisiveness of our country today, and, you know, we just--we want to make sure, in our company--and we've been voted, like, one of the best places to work forever, right? ["ow" sfx] Forever. But what was not being considered was that not everybody felt that way. It was not the best place to work for everyone. We found that out through our data, you know? We pulled some data that showed us that. So our goal is to make this the best place to work for everyone, and we don't--I mean, we look at everyone and make sure that they're taken care of. And we started our ERGs here two years ago. We dedicated a lot of resources to it. It has its own program manager that manages everything. That's his full-time gig. That's what he does to make sure that, you know, they're good. You know, we have all of the infrastructure in place for that. They're fully capitalized. Yeah. We do--you know, we do a lot of stuff here that a lot of companies don't do, and I think a lot of it just has to do with the fact that we've been following best practices. 'Cause, like I said, we didn't find any, so we had to create our own.Zach: No, that's incredible, and you're absolutely--this is the thing. It's so interesting because as commercialized and, I'm gonna say it, colonized as diversity and inclusion has become, right, like, as a space, when it comes to actually delivering and doing the work, we're still very much so in our infancy, right? Like, there's not a blueprint for anything.Lionel: No. No, there isn't, and that's--yeah, I would agree with you that there is a lot of stuff in our space that, you know, I kind of, like, look at three or four times too, you know? Like, "Really? That's what we're gonna do now?" [Zach laughs] But that's the thing, you know? Let's be creative, you know? Let's figure it out, and for me it was very personal, you know? That's why, you know, a lot of the stuff that we did here was me imagining me, you know, sitting there at work. You know, what would I want? You know, when I first started in this stuff, what would I want? I'd want to be able to come into work and feel like I can be the best me possible, right? But I don't have to, like, play by nobody else's rules about how I talk, how I walk, and all of those kinds of things. I don't believe that people should or can bring their whole selves to work. I don't believe in that. I think that, you know, there's some shit you need to leave at home, right? [both laugh] I don't believe--you know, like, my grandmother used to tell me, you know, "Tell some. Keep a lot." You know what I mean? You don't need people knowing everything, right?Zach: Yeah, keep going.Lionel: You should be able to be comfortable when you go to work. You shouldn't have to code switch as much. You shouldn't, you know, have to wonder about your place there as much, you know what I mean?Zach: I do. You're 100% right, yeah. Lionel: Yeah, that's what we did. Zach: You said, "Share a little bit. Keep a lot." But you're right though, and some of that, Lionel, is cultural, right? So, like, I would say black and brown folks--and I'll just speak for my experience. Like, I was raised, you know, you keep your business to yourself, right? Like, there's certain things, where as then, you know, there's stereotypes that white folks love to just tell everything they got going on. They'll talk about the medication they're taking, if they're depressed, you know? They'll share everything. But you're right, like, I'm not tripping on--I don't necessarily--my quote-unquote "whole self," like, I don't have to do that, but I should feel comfortable--right, I should not feel uncomfortable and dread going to work or feel like, man, just so otherized to the point where I can't even function.Lionel: Exactly, and being othered is real, and it's difficult for people to see that, you know? Like, "Oh, we're paying you," you know? "I don't know why you don't feel appreciated," you know? It's that kind of stuff, and it's like, "Man." You know, if I'm coming into work and I can't wait to get home--not because, you know, I just don't want to be at work for whatever reason, but just because I don't feel comfortable and when I get home is when I feel comfortable? Or I'm dreading going to a company event because I don't feel comfortable? You know, that's a problem. That's a problem. That's why there's more brothers and sisters that are consultants than full-time employees in the tech space.Zach: Man... listen. Oh, my goodness. So look, Lionel, you gonna have to come back, because I've got, like, four more topics we can talk about, [laughs] but you're 100% right, right? Like, you think about, like, it's these temporary, transient roles, right, that give you space, but then also, like--they give you space to kind of move around and not get too uncomfortable in these environments. Man, not to mention the pattern where I'm seeing a lot of black and brown folks are in these, like, non-client-facing positions. Like, they'll typically in, like, the security tech roles, but let me not even--let me not step on too many toes today. Let's keep going though. I want to respect your time. Let's get into how you and I connected. So of course, you know, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm active active on there, but I seen you on there, and you sent me a link about a project you're working on, which really got my attention, and I'd love to--I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that as well as--and just kind of your passion and interest as to why you're doing the work that you're doing on it.Lionel: Yeah. I think you're referring to the microaggressions survey that we sent out.Zach: That's right. Lionel: So Rebekah Bastian is the VP of Community and Culture here. She's my boss, right? I have a direct line to her and then a [?] line to the chief people officer. She and I sit right next to each other. It's an open kind of space. And she's a contributing writer for Forbes. So she was writing this thing on microaggressions, and I was like, "Let me read that," and I read it, and it talked about microaggressions towards women, right, and more microaggressions towards women, and I was like, "Man, that's crazy," you know? Because we suffer from microaggressions. And she was like, "You do, I know that." And I was like, "Yeah, I know you know that, but, you know, there's no data around it. Why don't we do our own survey?" You know, 'cause we couldn't find no data, right? We did the research and whatever, and she was like, "Yeah, I would love to write something on that, but, you know, I can't find any data," and I said, "Well, let's create our own data, you know?" So she put a survey together, and I sent it out to my network, which is pretty broad, and then many of my--that's one thing I want to thank everybody for, including yourself, you know? Many of them sent them out to their networks too. Like, "Hey, you know, this is happening. Let's talk about this." Right? And yeah, I came back and--I think we're gonna try and do this, like, yearly, and try to go even deeper, 'cause I think that it was a great introduction, but I think that we could have covered a couple areas that, you know, people really don't want to cover. But it's important, right? 'Cause I know that I suffer for them still today on a daily basis. I have to check somebody in a meeting or, you know, I also have to be mindful about certain things, right, you know, that they don't have to, you know? When I say them, I mean, like, white folks that are in my same position or at the same level that I'm at, right? And yeah, we still go through it, and it's difficult. You know, it's difficult, and we had to put that information together ourselves 'cause we couldn't find any.Zach: Well, to that point though, why do you think that I&D programs--so I have a bevy of my own theories, right, but why do you think, when we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, we don't zoom in on black male or brown male experiences specifically?Lionel: I don't think people really want that wake-up call yet, you know what I mean? I think that people want to imagine that "Hey," you know, they got to this particular spot in their career, you know, they're making this particular amount of money, you know, they should be happy, right? But they don't know that for a lot of us--I mean a lot of us, man, a lot of us--you know, we have to deal with [BLEEP] on a daily basis that they never have to deal with, they never have to deal with. But nobody really wants to put light on that, you know? 'Cause then that would mean that we have to do some more work, and I think people don't want to do that, you know? I think that, you know, people try and find the easiest and fastest way to get to a certain point, right? But when we're talking about something that's this complicated and this nuanced, it's gonna take some work. It's gonna take some serious work, and--what is it--the implicit bias trainings and all of those kinds of things, you know, that's, like, the tip of the iceberg. Nobody wants to.Zach: No, they don't. And it's aggravating too, because even--so I've talked to--so in my current job, and then at previous jobs too, but, like, I have mentors here, and I've [?]--you know, what I find frustrating about us always running into implicit bias is that it makes the presumption that all bias is accidental or unconscious, right? And it's like, "No." Some of y'all actively don't want black and brown people here. Like, come on. It is 20--it is the age of our Beyonce, 2019. We know the deal. [both laugh] We know where people align politically. Like, more than ever we have direct insight into political idealogies, beliefs, and points of view on race, gender, sex, religion, sexuality. Like, we know all these things, so, like, let's not act like everything is "Oh, I stumbled across this racist thing." Like, come on. That's not the reality. So let me ask you this as we kind of wrap up. What are some of the challenges that you've come across as a black executive leader within an I&D space? 'Cause you're the second person. You're only the second person in one of these positions that I've met that is a black man. So you're in this position, right? Typically I see folks in this position are white women and maybe even white women who identiy as LGBTQ, right? As a black man, what does influence and coalition-building look like in your position?Lionel: Influence and coalition-building in my position? Well, one is--you know, one, you've got to have allies. I don't believe that we're in a position right now, that we have the power right now, to be able to make the change that we need to make without powerful allies, right? But at the same time, those powerful allies are working with biases themselves, so you need to make sure that you're training them up, mentoring up with them, to make sure that when they are supporting you that they're supporting you effectively and they know where it's coming from. I agree with you in many ways that, yeah, I don't necessarily think--well, let me change that. I don't believe that bias is a strong enough word for one thing. Two, I don't believe that it is all implicit. I do think that some people are just that way, and they just believe, you know, all of the propaganda and rhetoric that has been going on in the United States forever about us, right? And coalition-building really means getting rid of some of that, you know? Doing the, you know, behavioral change and thought change is important, you know? That kind of thing has to happen before people can really try to support you, because they have to understand that they are being affected, and their actions are being affected, by things that they've been taught for most of their lives in the United States, you know? The United States, man, we're--this is a country built on racism. This is a country that's, you know, built on the backs of us, you know? Whether you're Asian, Latino, Native-American, you know, that's what this country is built on. [to this day sfx]Zach: Straight up.Lionel: To this day.Zach: To this day!Lionel: To this day, right? To this day, and we have to get to a place where we recognize that. We have to get to a place where we're not okay with it. It is something that we're ashamed of, but it's something that we're gonna admit, right? That this is what's going on with us, and we need to move forward from here. That's coalition-building, you know? Getting people to really understand the mistakes that were made. Fess up to them. Own up to them. Make some changes, right? [?]Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Man, I love it. And, you know, this is the thing--you're the first person who I've had a conversation with who talks about the fact that coalition-building is not only bringing things in but also pushing things away, right? It's both. I love that. I love that. Well, look, let's do this. If you had three points of advice for any leader seeking to specifically recruit and engage black men, what would they be?Lionel: Make sure that what you want to invite them to is welcoming of black men. Do that, right? I mean, don't ask me to come to your house if your house is falling apart. Don't do that. Like, make sure your outline's right first, right? Make sure that you work with recruiting to help them to understand that, yes, they are out there, you're just gonna have to work a little bit harder. Make sure that you work with your executive staff to make sure that they're on board with whatever programs that you put in place so that you can make sure that you keep people once they get there. Zach: I love it. Just like that. And listen, y'all, you heard Lionel's advice, so we looking at you now. So you're gonna come around trying to invite black and brown men to your organizations, and we're looking back at you like [haha sfx]. Look, don't play yourself. Pay attention. This has been great, Lionel. Before we get out of here, any parting words or shout-outs?Lionel: No, man. Thank you for having me. You know, we've got a lot of work to do. You know, we're nowhere near where we could be, and a lot of this is about the economic divide, the wealth gap, and it's just gonna get wider and wider and wider. We've got to get on, you know, our bikes, man. We've got to get to work, you know, 'cause--we've got to get to work. We've got to get to work.Zach: Well, they're projecting that the median wealth of black families from a household perspective will be zero dollars, like, by 2050 or so, so you're absolutely right. We gotta--man, Lionel, this has been--like, no shade to everybody else, y'all, this has been top two dopest conversations we've had on Living Corporate. Thank you so much for being a guest. We very much so want to have you back. We'll talk about that offline. Until next time, y'all, this has been Zach. You've been listening to Lionel Lee at the Zillow Group. Make sure you check out all of his information. Links in the show notes. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Zach speaks with Kori Hale, CEO of CultureBanx, about CultureBanx itself and her personal career journey. They also discuss the concept of producing content, particularly while other, and Kori offers some great advice for professionals who are afraid to make a jump or do something new in their career.Connect with CultureBanx through their website, Instagram, and Twitter - and check out their content on Spotify!Connect with Kori on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and we are here again. More fire for your head top, more content, more real discussions with black and brown people or people that affirm the identities and experiences of black and brown people to center--that's right--black and brown people. And today is no different, 'cause, you know, we're coming to y'all with really good conversations, often times with a special guest, and we have such a guest today - Kori Hale. Kori, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Kori: Hi, Zach. I'm great. How are you?Zach: I'm doing really, really well. I appreciate the fact that you were able to take the time to be on the show. For those of us who don't know you, could you talk a little bit about yourself?Kori: Yes, I can, but before I do, I noticed in the opening you said this show is also for people who affirm the identities of black and brown people, and I was wondering if that included Rachel Dolezal. [laughs]Zach: Oh, goodness. You know what? If Rachel wants to--here's the thing about Rachel. I--it's so confusing, 'cause she could have done so much more as an actual white woman and, you know, given and used her privilege as--you know, and given it away. Instead she chose to, I don't know, handicap herself, but then also take a bunch of, like, praise? I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. What do you think? You tell me.Kori: Yeah, I don't know. It is a tough one. However, homegirl can definitely braid some hair based on that Netflix documentary that I saw, 'cause I'm like, "Yo." I mean, normally white people just have less-textured hair, so it's much harder to actually, you know, braid in extensions, and I ain't ever even seen anyone iron some hair like that before. [both laugh] She was teaching me some stuff! So I was like, "Oh, girl, I didn't even know you could do all that."Zach: That's so funny. But you know what? I think this is a really good segue into what you do and your platform, but I'd love to hear more about your journey and kind of--so let's just get it out there. You're the CEO and founder of CultureBanx, which is a media platform for black folks, for black and brown--I'm gonna say black folks, and I'll let you kind of get into it, but let's talk a little bit about your journey and kind of how you got there and then really more about what CultureBanx is.Kori: Yes. So my journey is--well, as I like to say, the path that we're all on in life is not easy, nor is it paved in gold, and that's a lot like my story. I started out as an investment banker, first internationally at a Swiss bank in London, and then I moved back to the States and I was with Goldman Sachs for several years and just really realized, right, that there wasn't anyone that looked like me delivering high-level business financial news in a way that really would resonate with my community, with my core values, and so I was like, you know, "If I can't figure this out, let me maybe try and go work at some of the big networks," specifically business news networks, right, and figure out how can I maybe inject some diversity, because I think that a lot of us, when you work in corporate America, the main thing that you want to do is feel like--and I really actually hate when people use the word "safe places" or "safe space." Like, there's no safe space when you get up and you go to work for somebody else every day, right? Because it's their company. So, like, that doesn't exist, even if they want to create some employee resource group or whatever. Like, the head of the employee resource group still reports to somebody that doesn't look like them, [?] like, up to the CEO of the company. And so I thought I was gonna be able to inject diversity at networks like Bloomberg and CNBC, and even when I was a news anchor down on the floor of the Stock Exchange and actually didn't even know until I was down there that I was the first African-American woman to ever anchor a daily news show from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange in its 200+-year history, and I thought, "Well, that's odd." Like, "What's going on here? Why has that never been a thing until I worked at this media startup?" But through that transition of investment banking to then getting into media, what I really realized was that there was no outlet, broadcast, print, or digital, that was gonna deliver the type of content that I was looking for. So if a former investment banker journalist can't create this sort of company for communities that need it the most, then no one else is gonna go out there and do it, and that really brings us more to the present day and CultureBanx, the media company, and what we do is create business news for hip hop culture, and essentially all of our articles have music attached to it that then spins out into different curated Spotify playlists. So it's pretty dope if I do say so myself, because I--Zach: Aye. [laughs]Kori: I mean, it is. I look at music as that sort of underlying theme throughout all communities. It's an easy way to engage, an easy way to see a reflection of yourself, and what if we took that same approach to information and content and not keep pushing just entertainment and sports and celebrity and that sort of stuff to minority communities? Because we think--and by we, the people that are actually even pushing the content towards these communities aren't even from those communities, but they're trying to say, "Oh, this is what they want. This is the only thing they care about," but that's not true. It's just that you're putting it in a, as I like to say, razzle-dazzle sort of way. If you did the same thing but you talked about stocks and mergers and acquisitions, what a difference you might see in those communities.Zach: No, you're absolutely. And I mean, I think the other piece is, like, also acknowledging the work that those communities are already doing, right? So there's more and more black tech spaces that are coming up organically, right? Like, you think about--there's multiple of these types of pods, like, within the coastal cities, the DMV, LA, Oakland, Houston, the Midwest and Chicago. Like, there's all types of just organic things happening. Healthy living co-ops. There's all types of activities that are happening in these--again, like, in these black and brown communities, but there are larger, I think, like--I don't know, just larger narratives and systems in place that minimize those stories. And also there's a lack of funding, right, and marketing awareness for those organizations that are already in place. What I think I hear you talking about is really exciting because you're pushing more content, and then I also believe CultureBanx provides opportunities, or at least opens up a lens to what is actually happening today in those spaces, right?Kori: Yes. We definitely provide people with what we call the culturally-attuned perspective in those spaces. I mean, it's easy to see a headline--to your point--about minority maybe co-working spaces or different companies or organizations, institutions, that are focusing in the STEM fields as it relates to minorities. What we really try to push over at CultureBanx are the everyday stories though. So not just [whatever?] falls in the minority bucket 'cause it mentioned something about the Latinx or Asian or black community, but this story is the headline on all of these platforms, and this is information you need to know, but they're not gonna tell you exactly why it's relevant to your community, why you should personally care about something like that. And Zach, can I go ahead and give your listeners a quick example here?Zach: Come on.Kori: So last year, Michael Kors--the company, the retail brand--bought Versace, a very famous Italian luxury retail brand, for $3 billion. You would think on the surface, "Okay, well, that's interesting I guess, if you're into fashion," or even if you're not into fashion, but no one is telling you why that deal is really a play on urban culture. And the reason that Michael Kors really wants a bigger stake in Versace is because of Versace's long-standing love affair with hip-hop, hip-hop and the community, and hip-hop of course being the #1 genre of music for the past decade.Zach: In the world.Kori: Right. Hip-hop leads these trends, and the majority of hip-hop artists are African-American. We've seen a huge rise, right, with Latinx performers in the hip-hop community as well, but still all in that, you know, minority category, and just that spending power alone of African-Americans is currently at $1.3 trillion, making the spending power of this community larger than the economy of Mexico.Zach: Come on, now. [Flex bomb sfx]Kori: Y'all gotta feel me when I say we have more spending power than the entire country of Mexico just as an African-American community, a subset of the bigger U.S. population, but it's more powerful than entire countries. And so to get in front of that audience, right, is something that most brands want, and no one is gonna talk about that the way we're gonna tell you "This is why this is important," right? This market move by Michael Kors to acquire Versace is much bigger than them trying to perhaps get into more of the luxury business and much bigger than Versace trying to figure out how it can get into more stores. It's like, "Hey, we know their main audience, the people that are spending money." I mean, think of all of the free advertisement that Versace gets in hip hop songs?Zach: Oh, no, 100%. 'Cause part of me--I was talking to my wife about this. I was like, "Dang, I wonder if any of these rappers--like, do they have deals that they don't talk about?" Right? Like, when Migos made that song "Versace," right, like, did they have some secret deal, like, a marketing agreement, and, like, did Drake get a piece of that? 'Cause, like, it's just wild that--like, we do that though. Like, we'll talk about Polo, Versace, Gucci. Like, we love high-end brands. We talk about Pateks. Like, we talk about--anything that's, like, European and very expensive, like, they end up in rap songs, and I just ask myself--and maybe I'm a little bit more conspiratorial than I should be. I'm always thinking about, like, there's just some grander scheme here--like, I just wonder, like, is there some, like, larger agreement that maybe even some of these record labels have with these European brands to then create this content? 'Cause you're absolutely right. Like, we promote it at crazy levels. Like, I wouldn't have wore Polos when I was in middle school like I did if it wasn't for Kanye, and I wouldn't have wore--like, there's just a bunch of clothes that I just wouldn't have purchased without--like, without rap influence, you know what I mean?Kori: No, I completely understand what you're saying. I think that that's what makes this so fascinating and so interesting, that other businesses, industries, sectors, they really value, right, the trendsetting and the taste-makers that come from minority communities moreso than we will value our own, you know, power, and that's the problem, because sometimes I don't think that we really immensely understand the power that we have. So when things are not going right, let's say on the negative side--racism, sexism, those sort of things--like, how valuable withholding your dollars from certain brands can be to move the needle.Zach: Yes, you're absolutely right. And, you know, it's interesting because, you know, these insights that you're having around media production--like, the business insights that you're having and that you're bringing to this space, I mean, I think it comes from your business journey, right? Like, you've had a few different jobs, and you don't really give the impression of someone who's afraid to change. So, like, can we talk a little bit about where you started, and then, you know, what advice you would give to professionals who are wherever they are for whatever reason and they're afraid to make a jump and to do something new? Kori: Yes. I actually really love kind of telling this particular part of my journey, but I'ma take it back a little bit before I actually started working and shout-out my undergrad university, Hampton University, out there in the Hampton Roads area right outside of Virginia Beach. And going to an HBCU is a very great experience, but for me personally, growing up in Houston, Texas, I grew up knowing and being around affluent African-Americans, so that wasn't, like, a stretch for me, to see black people that had real money, not the--you know, the kind of clout money as they say. That wasn't really a stretch for me, but going to Hampton University and really getting a full scope and breadth of black people from across the country, like, that was very eye-opening for me, and what it instilled was really the value of appreciating what we can do as a community and, you know, us being a part of that talented [?] and what that would mean for the future of our community. And after Hampton, when I moved to London and started investment banking at the Swiss bank UBS, I was like, "Huh. Well, this is also odd, because now I'm back in this super minority--" I call it a double-minority status, because I'm not just, like, a black person living abroad--I'm a black person and I'm also an American, so it was just a lot of things to have to work through. But coming back to the States from London and working at Goldman, I kind of got a better sense of the way that corporate America worked, and I wanted--at the time I thought the ultimate goal was to become a partner, right? That's what you kind of train for, that's what you kind of work up--"what you should be," as the company will tell you, should be aspiring towards. [cha-ching sfx] And I'm like, "Okay, so let me sort out this path." And I figured out what that path was about two years after I started at Goldman. I stayed another couple of years, but after those first two years when I figured it out, I also got into the mindset of "Okay, I pretty much know what it's gonna take and how long it's gonna take me to get there." Like, "That can't be the mountaintop," so to speak, because there's got to be more to life than this. And I really just took those next two years where I was at the firm to kind of navigate what I wanted to do. Like, if you would have told me at the time that I started at Goldman that I would one day be running my own media company, like, I would have laughed at you, because I had no aspirations to be in media. I didn't know anything about journalism. Matter of fact, the day I left Goldman Sachs, I did not know one person that worked in media. I'm talking about not even an assistant, even a doorman at a building, security officer at a news room, nothing. Like, I literally knew no one that actually worked in any news corporation, but I felt like God spoke to me when I was at Goldman and said that this is what I should be doing. I just kind of decided to stick with it, and some of the partners that were mentors and sponsors for me, I ran this idea by them, that I, you know, was gonna leave Goldman and go to journalism school and try and become a business news journalist--they were very supportive, and they told me basically, like, you're young--I was around 26 at the time--and if it doesn't work out, you can always come back here. Like, "You can always come back to GS if it doesn't work out," but a lot of them were basically like, "Don't be like us." Like, "Don't buy into," essentially drinking the company corporate Kool-Aid, so to speak, and stay here because you've figured out the path and it seems safe and secure, because you'll always look back and say, "But if I would have given this other thing a shot, even if I failed, at least I would have known I tried." And going back to a respectable organization like GS isn't a terrible fallback plan for anyone. Luckily I haven't had to tap into that fallback plan, but you never know what the future holds. [laughs] So we can always see, but that's kind of how that transition happened.Zach: You know, it's just incredible because--I'll speak for myself, right? Like, you know, I didn't think that I would get here, where I am, in my job, you know? I didn't think that I would be--I didn't think I'd be working here. Like, I remember when I was in high school I said, "I think I want to be a consultant one day," and my high school counselor said, "You're not gonna be a consultant," right? You know? And then after that, before I became a consultant I was trying to pursue a career in HR. I had folks who look like me saying, "You're not gonna be an HR manager," right? So, you know, for me, because of that and not having a lot of people that look like me in these spaces, getting to one of these jobs seemed to be the mountaintop, right? But the reality is that there's more to life than just working for somebody else. And, you know, no shame to anybody who wants--like, who wants to be a career... career person, but there's more than that. You know, how did you navigate some of the--like, the fear and anxiety that came with, like, making that jump? So you came--I'm not gonna get into your pockets, but I would presume, I could be wrong, that perhaps your career at Goldman Sachs gave you a little bit more financial flexibility to, like, make certain moves and take certain risks that other people couldn't take. Is that a wrong assumption, or is that--you know, did any of that come into play in terms of, like--do you feel like, because of your job, you were able to--you had more space to kind of take that leap?Kori: I think my job gave me--and, like, the money I made while I was there, it definitely gave me the flexibility to be able to go to Syracuse's Newhouse School of Communication and figure out, like, "Could I make this journalism career a thing?" I think it definitely gave me that because I had the confidence to know that if, for whatever reason, it didn't work out, I would be able to go back and have, you know, a very good-paying job, but also, like, enough money, for the most part, to help me at least get through, like, the schooling part.Zach: So then--so let's talk a little bit about the concept of producing, right? So you're a content creator. You're a producer. It's a term though that's thrown around quite a bit, right? Especially, like, in today's digital age. What does it really mean in your mind to be a producer in the media space today?Kori: I look at content producers in general as people that are creating new original, authentic shows, articles, media content in general. So not the companies that are aggregators of information. Like, there are a lot of companies out there that are basically just pulling stuff from other people's websites, but they're not actually holistically creating something that was not there before, and that's really a major differentiator in the space, because--to your point about a lot of different, like, black and brown minority-based concepts popping up, you've got to be able to stand out on your own and be creating in a space that no one else is already creating in. I think that we definitely need minority spaces, but we shouldn't divide and conquer, right? We're stronger together. We don't necessarily need 50 different versions of co-working spaces for people of color. I'm not saying that we only need one, but would it make more sense to pool our efforts together in order to create something bigger? Zach: No, you're absolutely right. It's interesting though because it's--like, so kind of going on the co-working space thing and, like, other ideas, one, because, like, our networks--I don't know, our networks are just different, and also, like, because sometimes we come into spaces late, or we--and when I say come into spaces, I mean we don't have the same amount of support to, like, be early adopters in the spaces that we may see our white counterparts do. So, like, we'll come into a space, and we'll come into the space at the same time, and so it looks oversaturated, right? But I actually--like, I don't know. So talk to me more about--so you zoomed in on co-working spaces twice now. Like, talk to me a little bit more about what you're seeing in that space and why--like, what's your point of view on it? 'Cause, like, I think they're really cool. I'm a consultant, so I have a co-working space all of the time because of, like, just the nature of my job. Like, I can just go to any home office, like, through the firm that I work at, but I think that they're a pretty cool idea, and they seem to be used, but, like, I'm not really as plugged in. So, like, I'd be open to you educating me on it.Kori: Yeah. So, I mean, I don't--I have a co-working space as well, but I don't really use it that much, and it's not a co-working space at a place for people of color, but specifically on that front, like, I do know a couple of founders that are trying to launch their own versions of, like, specifically of women of color, others specifically for founders of color in a particular sector, like, that sort of thing. I actually feel like that is a very fragmented marketplace, almost much in the way of The Wing, which is a very popular all-female co-working space that WeWork has actually invested in, and I definitely think there's a space where, you know, women want to be, but one of the main issues with the WeWork is that there are no men allowed, which, if you're a smaller business--which most people that use co-working spaces tend to be--you don't always want to have to go outside of your co-working space for a meeting. And I think that there are other ones that have popped up along the way. Like, there's one for women executives, right, where it's also fragmenting the market, but it's fragmenting the market in a way that makes people feel like they're being part of an elite club, if you know what I mean. Like, "Oh, you have to be at a certain level at whatever your organization is to be invited to be a member here." I think that sort of way of strategically planning out how you roll out different co-working spaces for people of color is a better strategic roadmap to success than just saying, "We're opening up a place for people of color."Zach: What is the--what would you recommend as the approach to, like, unify and desegment that space?Kori: Right. I think the best way to look at it is like, "This is the community that we're trying to get in front of," or that we're trying to help, and really pinpointing "What are the most important things to those people?" And I can actually liken that back to CultureBanx, like, and going into roadmapping out how do you deliver content to this so-called new woke generation in a way that they can actually identify with and see a reflection of themselves and their community with? And when you think of co-working spaces, like, what is it that's most important to the community of potential co-working clients and users that makes the most sense? And back to CultureBanx, for us it was everything that tends to be pushed that does really well in front of minority audiences has something to do around entertainment, music, celebrity. So it's how do we bring that to what we do so that it doesn't seem like it's such a far off leap for people to be interested?Zach: So then what does it look like--you know, let's talk about, like, the professional who--maybe they're not looking to start their own company, they're not looking to--they're just trying to survive at their job, right? Let's talk about, like, the concept of producing and, like, bringing these--and, like, the principles that you're talking about with CultureBanx, and how do you think those principles can be applied to a black and brown professional at work? Because ultimately there seems to be a certain level of purposefulness and intentionality. That's the better word. A certain level of intentionality and strategy that it comes to really producing effectively and really kind of managing brand. Do you think any of that could be effectively leveraged, utilized, for folks in their 9-to-5 jobs? Kori: Yes, but I think it always starts with figuring out--like, knowing your end goal and working backwards. So as I mentioned earlier, when I thought my end goal was to become a partner at Goldman, it was "Okay, well, I want to become a partner. I'm only a senior analyst now." Like, "Let's scale back from partner and work our way backwards and see what it takes to get there," to your point, like, your own self brand management at work every day. And funny enough, this is something that a lot of people don't know about me, I actually left Goldman about two months after I got promoted, which is--but I had already been--but this is when I talk about the planning. I had already been planning, like, my strategic, like, exit. As you all know, I'm sure, that are listening right now, you know, you apply to a school, you have to wait to get in, that sort of thing. You know, take the tests or whatever tests you need to be admitted to these universities. So, like, I had already been strategically planning that, but I had also still been working on that plan of "If I do stay and try to navigate my way to someday becoming partner--" I was still working that plan too and, you know, just came to that crossroads of "Huh, do I--" Even after I got promoted I almost decided that I was gonna stay and not even pursue this whole journalism path. I'm like, "Oh, this happened sooner than expected." So, you know, I was on the high-performing track as they call it at some companies, the fast track to moving up. Like, there was no real reason for me to want to leave other than I felt like my life's purpose and calling was greater than what I was currently doing. And when you are constantly in this strategic mode of planning out "What does it look like in my 9-to-5 every day to be able to push to the next level?" Everything about what you do has to be very heavily managed, as a person of color especially, and I know that in corporate America people try to heavily, like, push this whole concept of mentorship and sponsorship. I will tell you I'm not a huge fan of mentors, and every time I say that people will, like, give me their pushback, which is fine. You're entitled to your own opinion. But especially in corporate America, sponsorship is significantly more powerful than mentors, because mentors, they can also be sponsors, but you know how much more effective it is if you come to somebody with a game plan already and say, "Would you be willing to help me navigate executing this plan or this strategy?" As opposed to going to a mentor and being like, "You know, I'm really trying to figure out what role I want," or "I'm moving to the next department and thinking through--" Like, show up with some skin in the game already. Like, "I've already done X, Y, and Z, and it would be great if you could help facilitate." Now, obviously most people don't want to--I shouldn't say they don't want to. Most people want to feel like they're imparting their wisdom and knowledge on you, but if you're in a position where you can make that person look good by helping them or by them getting you to the next level, that only sets you up for more success.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. I also do think that there's a certain level--I don't know. I'm not trying to, like, pathologize nobody, and I'm not a psychologist, [but] I do believe that there is a meta-narrative of, like, non-minorities paternalistically trying to tell black and brown folks what to do, and they kind of revel in, you know, putting people in their place or just raising them in some way. [laughs] So I 100% agree with you. I think a lot of that stuff is often, like, self-aggrandizing and ego-centric. To your point around--like, I think it's more about the relationships you can build and what value you can directly say that you helped somebody else with to help them be successful. That's the way that I've seen people really climb up, right? It's not necessarily being like, "Oh, this person pulls me aside and gives me things to work on, and that's how I got promoted so fast." That's not really the case, 'cause you and I both have seen folks, you know, in an industry who have no business being in the position that they're in, and yet, you know, they're there, you know?Kori: Yeah. I mean, I think we all see that in this country, starting at the very top at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.Zach: Oh, wait a minute. Hold on now. [and i oop sfx]Kori: Not getting deeply into politics, but just saying, like it or hate it, if you agree with his politics or not--'cause people could say the same thing about 44, President Obama. Like him or hate him, you could argue one way or another and say maybe he didn't deserve--purely based on a resume, not basing on anything else. Purely basing it on so-called skills and qualifications for the role, you could make a case that he wasn't necessarily qualified, and it could be justified. You could make the same case for the current president, that he is not qualified for some of the same on the opposite end of the spectrum. I look at Barack and I say--excuse me, let me put some respect on that man's name. I look at President Obama--Zach: Come on, now.Kori: [laughs] And say that--it would be easier for people to say, you know, he doesn't actually have any business experience. He hasn't been serving in public office for any lengthy amount of time. Like, things that you would call into question for someone who would be taking the office of president. And on the other end of the spectrum you have president Trump, and you can say, "Yeah, he's run some corporations." They, on the outside, seem successful, but as we all know, when you dig in there are lots of question marks and, you know, missing documents, but you would say, "But he's never served in public office. What does he know about actually serving people essentially that aren't, you know, paying customers in that way?" Outside of the taxes that we pay. And you would question whether or not that someone is fit for that position. So yes, to your point, we all find that. "Why is this person in this position?" Well, most of the time it comes down to a likability factor. It doesn't come down to skill sets. And that's really my point, is that it's proven at the highest level. Like, something that my mom would always say to my older brother Kenan and I--primarily it started when we were in college--she would tell us, "You can either network or not work." Like, you going into work every day and doing your job that you're hired for, that's only 50% of your job. The other 50% needs to be you networking with people, because you don't know where your next opportunity is gonna come from, and your next opportunity, the likelihood that it comes from what you're doing sitting at your desk every day is very slim. It mostly comes from that person that you got coffee with once every two or three months.Zach: And I think this is the--so I don't know. I feel like you and I should actually have, like, another conversation. This isn't, like--you know, we don't typically do, like, in-depth conversations about different points of view on, like, whiteness or just, like, privilege, but, like, I'm curious to get your point of view on, like, even that. Like, that right there, the idea that you're building relationships off of the people that you're getting coffee with. Like, there are barriers to making sure that you even get that coffee, you know what I mean? Like, there are certain people that get invited to get coffee and then some people who don't, right? And then there's--and then as you even get to, like, the executive levels, you know, so many sales relationships are built on historical relationship equity that black and brown people just don't have 'cause they haven't been in these spaces. And so, like, I'm curious as to, like, your point of view on what does it look like--when you talk about relationships, when you talk about, like, navigating--and we kind of strayed away from the concept of producing, but I still think we're there. Like, what does it look like to use those tools to then, like, create those connections as much as you can?Kori: Yeah, getting invited to coffee versus, you know, kind of pushing your way in, I think that as a minority myself and other minorities especially working in corporate America need to take that ownership of organizing, of basically being like, "I'm gonna set up this sort of coffee situation." And I can give you all an example of my own personal story. So I worked at a media startup called Cheddar before I launched CultureBanx, and I actually knew the founder of Cheddar for a year or so before he ever even launched that company because he used to be the president of BuzzFeed, and then after that he was the CEO of The Daily Mail, and I knew him because I would book him as a guest to come on this show I used to produce for called Squawk Alley on CNBC. [owww sfx] And I used to just, you know, book him, and you kind of just build relationships, right, from being a producer, with different people, and that is essentially how I got that next role. So it had nothing to do with the fact of what I got up and went into work to do every day. Zach: Right. And again, what I continue to hear is just the willingness to put yourself out there. It's just so interesting, because, like, with non-whiteness I believe comes a certain level of unfamiliarity, right? So, like, you have the--if you don't look like somebody, even if--so let's just say there's two white people, right? They may have completely different backgrounds. Like, they may have completely different religious, socio-economic, even, like, cultural backgrounds, but that, like--the benefit of looking like somebody, there's certain grace that's given and space that's made to, like, more easily build relationships, where as if you're a person of color, like, what I'm hearing a lot--even though you're not saying it explicitly, Kori--is, like, you had to put yourself out there. You had to be enterprising. You had to connect the dots. You had to be much more strategic and intentional with your time and with, like, even how you present yourself and the things that you're doing and what you offer, right? Like, you had to really come--you had to really be thinking of a position of value creation, and that's great for you. Like, you're clearly a beast, right? Like, you've been--you've made moves moves, but what does it look like for--like, teaching that to somebody who isn't wired that way. Right? That could be challenging.Kori: It definitely is, and I am in no way a master of teaching it to other people. I know I have personal friends that say, "Kori, you're really great at public speaking," or "You're really great at going in and selling yourself or whatever it is that you're doing to other people." This is what I will say - it's a learned skill. Like, I didn't come out of the womb, like, doing this. There's definitely certain personality traits that are more akin to being able to just pick up these sort of things and these sort of characteristics, but it's a learned skill day in and day out, and it can start very basic. Going back to the coffee thing. Like, getting comfortable--which I know this is overused--with the uncomfortable, with making yourself uncomfortable. And if you're not the type who's gonna send a random email--which I love when people say to me, "Well, I mean, what am I gonna say?" I'm like--to your point about it kind of being a bit narcissistic with mentorship and that, people do love to talk about themselves. So just put it out there that, "Hey, you know, I'd like to talk to you. I'd like to learn more about what you do." And make it more about them. Normally, like, if you're in a relationship and you break up with somebody, you give them the "It's not you, it's me" speech. In business, give them the "It's not about me, it's all about you" speech. Like, when you send the email, like, "Hey, this whole thing is about you," right, "'cause you're so great, you're so fantastic. I just want to know about what you're doing." As a way to soften the introduction or the awkwardness that you think lies there, because you might not really know someone, even though that's something that you eventually might want to do or an area that you might want to move into. You have to do more, because you didn't go to boarding school with So-and-so, you know what I mean? You probably didn't go to all of the right Ivys, and even black people that have gone to Ivys, like--Zach: Listen, I've heard. Yeah, I've heard the experiences are different.Kori: Yeah. Like, if you didn't grow up in that world, like, you're still not necessarily accepted. So I think it's just you have to put yourself out there because they're not gonna know to contact you. Like, your parents, you know what I'm saying, y'all don't go sell off, you know, Martha's vineyard [?]. You didn't grow up going to summer camp for two months after you left boarding school, so basically you only saw your parents on holidays, and you're not even in college. You're only in the seventh grade. Zach: Right. You didn't go to Vermont to make artisanal pickles, you know what I'm saying?Kori: No, you didn't do any of that. So they already have 10--and that's just, like, at your level. Now you've got to think about how connected these parents are. Like, you're fighting a major uphill battle, and you can't go in every day and say, "I'm heads down. I'm gonna do a great job," which is something that they try to preach to you, right? Like, "Just go in. Work hard. Excel at your role." Like, "That's how you're gonna see opportunities."Zach: That's not true. Like--[laughs]Kori: You know why you're not gonna see any opportunities? Because your head is down at your desk or on the computer screen.Zach: And meanwhile we're upset. We're over here like [what more do you want from me? sfx] You know? It's just like--we're doing everything we can. So I 100% hear you and I agree with you, right? And not that I need to agree with you - this is a space of open ideas, you know? So diversity of thought is not real, but we do appreciate diversity of thought as it pertains or intersects with lived experiences of black and brown folks. So this has been super cool. Look, we've talked about CultureBanx, we've talked around CultureBanx. One thing we haven't done is talk about where people can learn more about CultureBanx, so please drop the info in here. We'll make sure to put it in the podcast notes and everything, but please let us know.Kori: Yes. Check us out at CultureBanx.com. You can find all of the content on our website. Sign up for our newsletter, daily newsletter, bringing you the latest, greatest, most important business news for the culture, as we say, every single day. You can also listen to the CultureBanx daily news briefing on any smart speaker device and also on Spotify. Everything is @CultureBanx on social media. Luckily we got in. There's no other company called CultureBanx, so it's the same--Zach: Aye. People underestimate how powerful that is. If you have the only name and you've got the domains--'cause let me tell you something. I've got--no, keep going. I'm messing your plug up. Keep going.Kori: [laughs] No, you're not, but it is important. Like, everything is literally just @CultureBanx. With an X, people. Don't forget.Zach: Please say the X, you know what I'm saying? Hold on. [Flex bomb sfx, both laugh] Oh, my goodness. Well, look, this has been super dope, and, you know, we just really appreciate you. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Kori: Parting words? I think the main parting words I would have is something that we say on our show, which is just keep building for the culture. Zach: Come on, now.Kori: We gotta do it for each other.Zach: [straight up sfx] You're absolutely right. Now, look, this has been a dope conversation. Thank you all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, y'all know--I wasn't trying to mess up Kori's plug, but y'all know we got all the Living Corporates, okay? We got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.us. We don't have livingcorporate.com. We have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, but we don't have livingcorporate.com. Australia has livingcorporate.com. Believe it or not, Kori, Australia, and they're selling corporate stuff. But see, the SEO looking kind of brolic out here, 'cause now when you type in Living Corporate--they used to be at the top. Now they're like, you know, in 8th or 9th. You know what I'm saying? Like, we applying pressure, you feel me? One day the brand will be brolic enough where we're gonna go to Australia and we will politely, respectfully, yank that domain right on back, and we're gonna have all the livingcorporates, and we're gonna just sit on a mountain of domains, you know what I'm saying?Kori: Which is not a bad idea. I'm actually helping out this other startup that's trying to modernize central banks, and the name of the company--which I won't throw out there right now--is so generic, and the person, the founder, has been using, like, different versions of the name of the company to try and set up, you know, different social accounts, and they have--even the website's name is not what she calls the actual name of the company, and I'm like, "This is too confusing. Like, people don't know where to go."Zach: 100%. People be having, like, the dopest ideas and be like, "Oh, we're gonna launch Bread.com." Like, yo, fam, you gotta figure out something else. Like--Kori: Right. You had to launch Bread.com when the internet first started. Like, the late '80s, mid-to-late '80s. Like, that's when you needed to launch that, but at this point no.Zach: Straight up. Man, this is funny. This is, like, the first, like, interrupted outro we've done, but it's really good. I like it, and we might have to start doing this moving forward. All right, y'all. Look, you can check us out. We're everywhere. In fact, just Google Living Corporate at this point. That's right. Stunt. That's right. Lowkey flex, but it's an honest flex. So Google Living Corporate. We out here. If you have questions you want to email us, check us out at LivingCorporatePodcast@gmail.com. Hit us up on the DMs. Twitter is @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram is @LivingCorporate, and until next time, this has been Zach, and you have been talking to Kori Hale, CEO and founder of CultureBanx. Peace.

Zach sits down with award-winning author and race and gender empowerment expert Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever to talk about identity, self-advocacy, and resistance in the context of the workplace. Dr. Avis also shares some advice for black and brown women who are still struggling to find their voice and advocate for themselves at work.Connect with Avis on her website and through social media! Twitter, IG, Facebook, LinkedInCheck out her book, How Exceptional Black Women Lead, on Amazon!Read her piece on NBC BLK! Black Women, Work and the Normalcy of DisrespectTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every episode we try to bring y'all something special, right? We either have an influencer, an educator, a speaker, an author, you know, a mover, a shaker, you know? And today we're actually blessed to have all of those things and more with our guest, Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever. Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever is an Award-Winning Author, International Speaker, Political Commentator, and Race & Gender Empowerment Expert. As a serial entrepreneur, Dr. Avis is the founder of the Washington DC Boutique Consulting Firm, Incite Unlimited, along with The Exceptional Leadership Institute and World Changers Media, LLC. Dr. Avis’ organizations offer leadership, diversity & inclusion, entrepreneurship and media training along with communications strategy development and the implementation of impactful research. Her clients include major corporations, non-profit organizations and governmental entities based both domestically and abroad. So that's everywhere, okay? Now, look, some of y'all probably have already seen Dr. DeWeever 'cause she's had--she's been seen on a variety of platforms, including CNN, Fox News, PBS, C-SPAN, TV One, BET, BBC, NPR, Sirius XM Radio--come on, now--the Washington Post, the Atlantic, Essence, Ebony, and many, many more. She currently serves as a Contributor to The Huffington Post, Black Enterprise and NBC BLK. Now, look here. I gotta get something for that. [Cardi B "ow" sfx]. Okay, now look, Dr. Avis also serves as a member of the Board of Directors of the Voter Participation Center, Women’s Voices. Women’s Vote, and the National Coalition on Black Civic Participation. In addition, she’s the Sr. Public Policy Advisor to the Black Women’s Roundtable, an Affiliated Scholar to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research, and a member of the Closing the Racial Wealth Gap Initiative. But in her most important role, she serves as a mother to two magnificent young men who will one day, undoubtedly, change the world. Dr. DeWeever, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Avis: I am doing [laughs]--I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.Zach: Oh, no, thank you for being here. Now look, I've got all these questions for you, but the first question, which I recognize has to be the question on top of everybody's mind... which one of these sandwiches is better? Is it the Chick-fil-A sandwich or is it the Popeyes sandwich?Avis: [laughs] Okay. Well, you know, everybody was talking about the whole Popeyes thing, so I just had to try it 'cause, you know, I'm just like, "What is all the commotion about?" Zach: Of course, of course.Avis: And I'm not a big Chick-fil-A person either, so--I have to be honest, I've never even tasted Chick-fil-A’s sandwich 'cause I'm not really that much into chicken sandwiches. I don't really get the purpose of putting the chicken in-between two pieces of bread.Zach: [horrified] Oh, no...Avis: I don't know. To me, the Popeyes chicken--okay, unpopular opinion, it was so darn crunchy I didn't really hardly get a taste. All I tasted was the outside.Zach: Oh, the skin.Avis: I try to stay away from fried stuff anyway, so.Zach: Well, good for you for taking care of yourself. You've got to manage your temple. Avis: Exactly.Zach: You know, it's a long-term investment.Avis: You ain't lying there. [both laugh] Hey, listen. If I would've had--if I had the metabolism I had 20 years ago, I'd be all the way in on a chicken sandwich. Since I don't, I'm leaving it alone, right?Zach: [laughs] Hey, I definitely understand. Now, I have yet to try it--well, let me take it a step back. I've yet to try the Popeyes sandwich, but I just--I don't know, man. It's hard. And this is not an ad, you know, and of course Chick-fil-A has their own problematic points of view as well, but I don't know. I just don't know, Doc. I don't know if I can get with that Popeyes. I don't know, but, you know, it's the total experience. Anyway, look, let's--all jokes aside, [both laugh] today we're talking about--we're talking about a few things, 'cause you have so much to offer, right? So we're gonna talk about a few things. We're talking about identity, self-advocacy, and resistance in the context of the workplace. Now, you've written a number of works that encapsulate perspectives and frustrations of black folks, specifically black women. Can you speak a bit about some of the works that you've written and how those challenges don't stop when you get to work?Avis: Absolutely. So I think probably my most significant work in this area is my book, "How Exceptional Black Women Lead," and with that I interviewed over 70 black women across the nation who--and some internationally--who are absolutely extraordinary in what they do, have ascended to amazing levels in terms of leadership success across a variety of different career platforms--or areas I guess is a better way of saying it--and I have to say, still all of them faced the double whammy, the double barrier, of being black and being a woman and having to sort of navigate the intersections of that all along the way to get to where they were, and I think the bottom line is that we all face, no matter where we are, no matter what industry we're in, whether we're corporate, whether we're non-profit, you know, whether we're entrepreneurs, those same--there are different rules that seem to be in play when it comes to us as compared to the other guys, and the bottom line is that we just--we recognize that as the reality, but we cannot let those bumps in the road become road blocks. We have to figure out how to navigate around them, and so what I've found inspiring by speaking with these amazing women is that they found a way to break through those road blocks, to get over those humps and bumps, and still make a way to the top. And if they can do it, other people can do it too.Zach: No, 100%, and it's so interesting too. I think that, you know, it's so easy--well, on my side, 'cause I'm a man, so I participate in patriarchy and male privilege, and I think about the more and more that I talk to--of course my mother as I've just gotten older and just, like, kind of think back about times when I was a child and some of the things she experienced at work, as well as just my black female colleagues. When I talk to them, just the amount of trauma and abuse and disrespect that, like, y'all endure and just casually put up with, right?Avis: Yeah. Oh, God.Zach: Right? And it's--like, every time I meet a black woman at work, she always has at least one extra degree more than I do, right? You know, you and I were having this conversation on Black Women's Equal Pay Day, and it just--there's a pattern here of black women being underpaid and overeducated, overqualified for the roles, and underpromoted, right? Undersponsored. You know, just to the point you're looking at 'em like [what more do you want from me? sfx] [both laugh] You know? Just, like, "What's going on?" [both laugh]Avis: Oh, my god. That was perfect. [both laugh] Oh, it's so true. And in fact, you know, actually I wrote a piece for NBC BLK called Black Women and the Normalcy of Disrespect, and it talks exactly about this issue. Everything that you mentioned, plus on top of that the issue of often times having your brilliance basically gentrified by other people in the workplace, right? So doing the hard work, not getting the credit, seeing other people that you basically trained leapfrog over you, it has in many ways become normal, and I think--and that also is related to another fact, that black women are the leading demographic in the nation just to say "Bump this," and start their own businesses, right? Because I think many of us come to the realization that "If my brilliance is not gonna be respected here, why am I giving away my pearls for this? To this?" Right? "Why not cast my pearls in my own favor?" And so a lot of us are making that transition to entrepreneurship because we understand that the work that we do in the workplace often times is disrespected, is not--does not really lead to the same sort of outcomes that other people face, and so because of that we think about, well, we don't want to spend our lives in that situation. Why not see what we can do in terms of turning our intellectual capital into a good--not just for somebody else, but for ourselves.Zach: Amen, Dr. Avis. And look, those little Biblical references, you're not sleeping on me. I heard you. I got one for you too - 'cause sometimes you gotta just, you know, shake the dust from your feet, you know what I mean?Avis: Exactly. [laughs]Zach: So you just gotta make it happen, you know? But no, you're absolutely right, and I think there's also--so I'd love for you and I to talk about this in a separate conversation, but, you know, Living Corporate, what we're really trying to do right now is do some research to talk about and connect the reality of work trauma, work-related trauma, with--like, the mental health impacts of work-related trauma to black and brown folks at work, because there's something that I believe--and again, I don't have a Ph.D, okay? I'm not out here hanging out with Roland Martin like you, Dr. DeWeever, but I do believe--[both laugh]--I do believe that there's some mental--I do believe it impacts your mental health to be the person who's putting all the thought leadership in, but then someone comes in, quote unquote cleans it up, and then they get all of the credit for it, right? I think that that's--that does something to you over time.Avis: It can be traumatic, and dealing with a daily sort of barrage of microaggressions and macroaggressions and not seeing other people sort of stand up and acknowledge what it is and call a thing a thing is also traumatic. I just had a conversation with a client last night who is a tenured professor at a university, went to an event at her university where there was a guest speaker, and apparently the guest speaker--white--used the N-word, and--[record scratch sfx] And she was shocked. She was insulted. And just as much as she was shocked and insulted, she was also hurt that none of her white colleagues said anything. Zach: No, that's terrible. That's terrible.Avis: So in essence she felt betrayed, right? So, you know, it is traumatic. It can be traumatic to continue to suffer those indignities every day, which is basically a coded behavior in our society that says that--that tries to tell us the lie, basically, that we don't belong, that we are not important, that we're not valued, and I think a lot of the work that I do, whether it be through my writing, whether it be through my sort of coaching with women around these issues, is really about saving our souls from that daily assault that we face in the workplace and figuring out strategies to navigate it in a way that maintains our self-dignity and allows us to put ourselves in situations where we do garner respect, whether or not that means navigating those spaces within that environment in a way that changes that dynamic so that you are treated with the respect that you deserve, or in some situations it may mean finding a better environment that is healthier for you, because it does not do you any good to stay in a workplace that is constantly assaulting your dignity. It will impact your health. It will impact your peace of mind. And let me tell you, no check is worth that.Zach: Oh--listen, hold on. Hold on. [straight up sfx] You're absolutely right. Listen, 'cause--and this is the thing. I think we're in a really interesting intersection of increased awareness--if I'm gonna go by social media, and if I look at, like, the wellness trends today, especially within, like, the black and brown community, we're in an interesting intersection of millennials being more and more prominent in the workplace and mental health being, like, more and more openly discussed, and I think that, you know, we've seen trends now that people--like, my generation will leave. You know, they're talking about "This ain't working?" You know what I'm saying? They'll say, "Well, you know, if you're not gonna be able to work these crazy hours and be treated like this, you're gonna have to find a new job." We'll be like [Shannon Sharpe "that ain't no problem" sfx]--it's not a problem. Like, we will transition, you know? [both laugh]Avis: I would be like, "Deuces!"Zach: Deuces. Like, goodbye.Avis: But you know what? That in and of it self is a good strategy. You know, I think we need to acknowledge the wisdom of that in a couple of different ways. I mean, not only are you saving your soul from those stressors that, as I mentioned, impact your physical health and your mental health, quite frankly your strongest point of negotiation when it comes to salary is when you have a new job opportunity. So moving to that next opportunity and that next opportunity and that next opportunity in a relatively short period of time helps you to be able to exponentially grow your earning power a lot more than individuals often times who choose to spend long periods of time in one place and get stuck and have a hard time moving up that ladder. [cha-ching sfx] So I think often times people talk about millennials in very disparaging ways, and I think in many ways some of those folks need to sit back and watch y'all and learn from what you're doing, because that makes nothing but sense to me.Zach: Oh, listen. If you look at my little LinkedIn--and I'm not leaving a job every couple months, don't get me wrong, but I've zig-zagged. I've got a little positive zig-zag action going on, and you just gotta keep your eyes open, 'cause I'll show up to a whole new job talking about [Kawhi "what it do baby?" sfx] Like, I will leave. Like, I will--boy. Anyway, [both laugh] let's keep it going. You know what? And this is the thing, Dr. DeWeever. You're making me laugh more, so then I'm using more of these sound effects, but that's fine. I appreciate the encouragement. Let's talk about the role that intersectionality plays in the work that you do, right? And so Incite Unlimited, you know, you're a D&I expert--you're a diversity, equity, and inclusion expert. What does it look like to discuss race and gender and engage white women, who may assume that your challenges and lived experiences are either if not the same highly similar?Avis: That's a problem. [both laugh, haha sfx] That's a huge problem. But in all seriousness, honestly, these days, I'm so frustrated with where we are in the D&I space period, DE&I space. I'm frustrated because many companies--and I talk about this a bit in my book--for years now, actually, have made the decision--they've made the calculated decision to preference gender diversity over racial diversity in their efforts and in their focus and programming as it relates to looking at DE&I and how it is lived out in their companies. And as I show in my book, what we've seen--and it's interesting, 'cause this dates back to 2008--we start to see a shift in who gets promoted to leadership positions in corporations, and it's interesting. It's as if there was this collective decision among corporations that "Okay, there's a black president, so black people have made it, so let's stop focusing on black folk." Right?Zach: Yes.Avis: And so what we see, if you look at the data about who actually gets promoted to management positions, is we see an exponential increase in the number of white women who get those positions, and at the same time we've seen a mirrored effect of a decrease in the number of people of color of both genders who get those positions. So now, even though we're in a time right now where corporations are, you know, every time, you know, you see them, any time you hear anything around corporations around this issue of diversity, a lot of them have a good, you know, shtick to sell. All of them know what to say. They always talk about the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but when you actually look at the numbers, you actually have corporations that are getting whiter and whiter, even though they tend to tout the language of diversity, but they're just checking that box with white women instead of with people of color. So in many organizations you end up having what I call an organizational apartheid, where the leadership structures now are increasingly white, even though now you have more of those leaders wearing skirts than you did in years past. But you have even more whiteness at the top now than you did, say, 10 years ago.Zach: Listen, I had a--I was on the job, and I was talking to somebody, and they were talking about diverse the group was. And I was like, "The group is all white women." What do you mean "diverse?" Like, diverse in what way? Diverse in, like, that they're all not blonde? Or--like, what is this? And you're 100% right, and I--so look, this is the thing, right? So I am in--I'm actively in corporate America, right? Like, I'm in this space. I work for a large consulting firm. And it's increasingly frustrating, because you're absolutely--I 100% agree with you. I'm looking at the content and I'm looking at the way that things are framed, and they are often framed in very binary terms, right? They're framed in very, like, "men versus women," and it's like, "You're really going--" Like, it's insulting. Like, it's not only just ahistorical, right? It's an intellectually dishonest discussion. Avis: Absolutely.Zach: Right? It's intellectually dishonest, because in 1865, in 1845, all men were not doing the same things, okay?Avis: Absolutely not.Zach: Right? And all women were not doing the same things. And so it's like, "Okay, what does it look like to have an honest conversation about this?" You know, we actually had Lionel Lee, who--he's an inclusion lead for the Zillow Group, and I asked him, I said--like, we're just now getting to talking about black women from time to time, and we've yet to--I haven't really been a part of a lot of programs that explicitly talk about black male experiences, right? And I'm like--and look, I don't even do it and D&I is a large part of my job. I don't even do it because I recognize that I need to use my platform and my privilege to help my sisters, and--not but--and at the same time I'm like, "Dang, why don't we ever talk about the reality and nuanced experience of black men?" Like, yes, we benefit from patriarchy, and yes, we have--we have privileges that black women do not have. We're also seen as a threat at work. We're also often times patronized in a way, and it's a unique--but we don't even talk about that kind of stuff. And you're right--Avis: You're exactly right, and I would say you also suffer wage gaps. Zach: Right.Avis: People talk about wage gaps as if it's just a gender thing. It's not. It's a race and a gender thing. So just as, you know, black women, for example, suffer a double wage gap as compared to white men--which, as you mentioned, we're recording this on Black Women's Equal Pay Day. You know, black men have a pay gap with white men of similar educational backgrounds, and so black men aren't paid fairly either. And then if you look within the women's population, black women suffer a wage gap as compared to white women. Right? So no one really talks about these realities. It's not as simple as just a gender dynamic. You're exactly right. In this nation, race, color, is--no pun intended--everything. Everything. Yet, you know, there is only a sense of urgency around talking about this issue of gender at work and addressing those issues. And, you know, my theory behind that is, you know, it--let's just be real. I mean, this white men who stand at the top of the hierarchy in these spaces have white mothers. They have white wives. They have white daughters. So there is a natural alliance there that they tend to be more sensitive to than they are to black male issues, black female issues, or issues of any people of color. And so, you know, I think it's important that we acknowledge that reality, and until DE&I becomes serious about taking off the blinders and having an honest conversation around--and not just conversation, honest actions around really creating equity at work through both a race and gender lens, it will really be nothing in many ways but a farce in many organizations, where they can do a little something, have a few programs on a few special days, but when it comes to really making [?] change they cower, much like the rest of this culture. It's very hard--I wouldn't say it's hard. The normalcy of white privilege in our society creates a situation where whiteness does not want to take responsibility for its actions. As we're recording this, not only is it Black Women's Equal Pay Day, I'm actually in Hampton right now about to attend [?] activities around the 400th anniversary of the first Africans who came to America. In slave ships. I'll put it like that. And we still--you see what happened when the New York Times published the 1619 piece, where you have all of these supposedly legitimate, quote unquote, voices on the right come out, and they simply deny the reality of the history of this nation. Yeah, so we have a relatively easy time in America at least acknowledging issues of sexism. Like, we don't deny facts when it comes to, like, you know, the history of sexism, right? But to have people act like the reality and the brutality of what slavery was, to call that propaganda, to me, serves as a great example of the level of dysfunction that we are in this nation when it comes to really being honest around the oppressive nature of racism, not just in the past. We can't even cop up to what happened 400 years ago. That really puts a spotlight on why it's so important and why it's so hard for people to cop up to what's happening right here in the here and now.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Had to give you a Flex bomb. You're absolutely right. You're dropping straight facts. Now, look, I want to respect your time, so let's keep going. One topic that Living Corporate has discussed in the past has been respectability politics. Now, I'm a firm believer that respectability still shapes a large amount of the ways that we, as black and brown folks, show up in any space. What has been your experience with respectability politics in the realms that you engage?Avis: Yeah. I mean, that is--it's a big thing. It's a big thing, where people have to make the choice, in many ways, like, how do you navigate situations at work where there are sensitivities around institutionalized racism. Do you sort of call it out at the moment, or do you try to play the game and hope that it will make--you know, things will improve over time? I really think--I personally have a problem with respectability politics, and it may just be that I'm a rebel--[both laugh]--but really, logically I'm thinking, "What are you really gaining when you're sacrificing your soul?" Really, what are you gaining? And then what are you changing, right? What you're doing is you're legitimizing the unfair behavior when you contort yourself in a way in which you have to minimize who you are in order to be accepted. I'll give you a brief example. When I--you know, I've had my locks. I have locks, and I've padlocked my locks now for well over 20 years. I started them when I was in graduate school, well before it became cool, okay? [Cardi B "ow" sfx, both laugh] And so when I started my locks, I remember my mom told me at the time, "Oh, my God. You'll never get a job," you know? But at the time I told her, and it has borne out to be true, that, you know, if someone does not want to hire me because of what's on my head versus what's in my head, then that's some place I don't want to work, right? Because that tells you something about that environment, right? And so to me that's just an example of respectability politics. If I have to change who I am to fit in with you, then I don't need you, boo-boo. I don't need that. You're not the only place on earth. Really.Zach: Absolutely not. [laughs]Avis: And that goes for relationships too, but that's a whole 'nother story.Zach: Oh, my goodness. You're gonna have to come back for that one. You're 100% right though. Okay, so now--[both laugh]--do you believe that respectability has increased or decreased in this era of Trump? And I'm gonna say era of Trump because come on, now. First of all, this is my podcast. I'll say what I want to say. But two, it's the reality of, like, the fact that we live in an era that is, in certain ways--so I'm not one of the people that thinks like, "Oh, it's so much more racist now." America has been racist since its inception. However, or with that being said, there is a certain level or spirit of boldness that is in the atmosphere that is, I would say, unique to this time, but not exclusive to this time. With all of those different exceptions we said at the top, do you believe respectability has increased or decreased in the era of Trump, and what role do you predict it playing for the next generation of black and brown folks at work?Avis: Mm-hmm. I think respectability has decreased in the era of Trump, precisely because of what you previously mentioned. I mean, in this time we are seeing a space where, even though racism has always been around, it's not been new to America, it's been here from the very beginning, we are experiencing a moment where there is greater social acceptability, or at least perceived social acceptability, for overt racist acts, right? And so because of that, people are engaging in more racist actions in broader society, which includes in the workplace, okay? And I think that it's also created sort of a counter-reaction, where people are also becoming more activists in terms of resisting those behaviors. Now, people find different ways to fight back, but I do think that where there is an action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and in this moment, while we're seeing a rise in hate crimes, a rise in hate groups all across the nation, we're also seeing [?] and activism to fight against it. And so if there is, hopefully, a silver lining that we might find behind this moment, it is my hope that what it has done is it has awakened people who maybe had been lulled into a sense of false security under the Obama administration to say, "You know what? We haven't gotten as far as I thought we've gotten. In fact, we're starting to move backwards." And I just can't go along to get along anymore. The time has now come to fight back, and I'm hoping that's what more and more people are doing, and from what I see that seems to be the case.Zach: I 100% agree with you. 'Cause, you know, as an example, Dr. Jones-DeWeever--so I used to kind of, like, take a break--you know, like, let's say, like, in Obama's time, you know, I would walk outside, just take a nice little stroll, but see, now, in the era of Trump, I feel extra black. So I take--I got my menthols, and I just smoke right outside. Maybe I take some Black and Milds. You know, it's nothing, right? I might even put on a durag, because I'm like, you know? You ain't about to stop me.Avis: Put on one black glove.Zach: I put on one black glove as I roll a Newport, okay? [both laugh]Avis: Boy. Man, you'll be scaring folks.Zach: At my desk. While listening to "Strange Fruit" in the background. Listen--[both laugh] I'ma let you go. We're almost done, I promise. Here we go. Your voice is a critical part of everything you do, right? So you're a writer. You're an advocate. You're an activist. You're an educator. You're also a speaker, and you're a political commentator in major mainstream media and independent media. What advice would you give to black and brown women who still struggle to find their voice and advocate for themselves at work?Avis: That is such an excellent question and such an important question, and I think it's first critical--it's interesting. I had a conversation with a client about this today. First of all, you have to realize that you do have a voice. It's there. No one has the right or the ability to take away you, what's inside of you and what's for you, right? And so I think just acknowledging that your voice is there and that your voice has value is the first critical step that every black woman has to take. And then you have to say, "How can I best use this to create better outcomes for me?" Right? It's about speaking up when someone takes your idea and tries to pass it off as their own. It's about making sure that you negotiate when that offer is made to you and you don't just take the first number that's thrown your way, you know? It's about speaking up in that meeting and making sure that your perspective is heard. So it's about not shrinking in those moments, and it's then remembering the powerful being that you are and that you deserve to be there and that, 9 times out of 10, you're probably more qualified than everybody else in that room, so lean into that. And that's the only situation where I would ever use the term "lean in," because I will say that, generally speaking, we all know that black women have been leaning in forever, right? But what I really want us to do is understand our power and to vocalize that power and to not feel ashamed about vocalizing it. And if you do get to a situation where you feel that the environment that you're in does not respect you, does not want your contribution, tries to minimize you or silence you, then I think you should definitely look at other opportunities, because this world is replete with opportunities, other job opportunities and opportunities that you can create independently for yourself. And so lean into the beauty of the brilliance within you, and don't let anyone else convince you that it's not there.Zach: Y'all, let me just go ahead and give some air horns for that real fast. [air horns sfx] 'Cause those were all big facts. My goodness gracious. Okay, look, this has been a great conversation. I've had a wonderful time. I also believe--I'm not trying to impose--I believe you've also had a wonderful time, and--Avis: I have! This has been great. Thank you.Zach: Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Avis: I just want some more sound effects, that's all. I'm just, like, really all about the sound effects.Zach: We're right here. Listen, I got 'em all. Look, me and Aaron--I'll listen to something on YouTube and I'll be like, "Aaron, go ahead and take that and drop it in the Dropbox." He's over here--he'll take them little downloads and put 'em in our little folder like [Cardi B "bratbratbrat" sfx] You know, we got all kinds of content, okay? So we're ready. [both laugh, Cardi B "hehe" sfx]Avis: I love it. [laughs]Zach: All right. Okay, listen, y'all. Thank you so much for joining the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, we're everywhere. I used to say all of the little places that we're at, Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever, but I don't do that anymore. I just say "Google us" at this point, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause God has enlarged our territory, okay? We are continuing to expand and grow, okay? And so if you just Google "Living Corporate," you will find us, okay? We're on every streaming platform. You can check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate and look for us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, okay? We're out here. If you want to listen and make sure that you actually can check out all of Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever's books and speaking engagements and where you can contact her more, check out the show notes. We got 'em all right there. Until next time, this has been Zach. You have been listening to Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever, speaker, educator, activist, mother of two, and all-around dope person. Catch y'all later. Peace.

Zach sits down with Cedric Chambers, the founder and CEO of JUMP Recruits, to discuss the definition of the term "diversity" and the concept of diversity of thought. Cedric also offers a few recommendations to CEOs and chief HR officers who want to see their organization become more diverse.Check out JUMP Recruits and connect with Cedric on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and today is another day, another dope interview. Y'all know how we do, okay? So this is not--okay, like, we're coming up on--shoot, actually, let me say this. By the time this episode drops, we might be past 100 episodes, you know what I'm saying? Might have already hit the century mark. In fact, let me go ahead and hit these air horns just--you know, just in case we hit it already by the time this one drops, you know what I'm saying? [air horns sfx] You know, for those who don't know, Living Corporate amplifies the voices of black and brown folks at work. We interview executives, influencers, creatives, movers and shakers, the next folks up. You know, the real ones, you know what I'm saying? Come on. Like, all skin folk ain't kinfolk, okay? That's another podcast from the day. Those who know know what I'm saying. But we interview the real ones, okay? And today is no different with Cedric Chambers. Cedric is dedicated to enhancing the presence of diversity and inclusion in the workplace one client at a time. As the founder and CEO of Jump Recruits, Cedric partners with talented professionals and leading employers to diversify and improve the workforce culture within leading industries and growing sectors. Sound Man, you know what? We gotta drop some more air horns for Cedric. Come on, now. [air horns sfx] And I gotta add one of these Cardi B "ow"s, you know what I'm saying? ["ow" sfx] Just because. Cedric, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Cedric: I'm doing wonderful, Zach. Man, you are amazing. That was the best intro I probably ever heard. [both laugh]Zach: Man, I know I gave you a little intro, but for those who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Cedric: Yes. Well, look, to give kind of the full but be quick about it--so I'm originally from Georgia. Not Atlanta, Columbus, Georgia. And so--actually a little small town about two hours southwest of Atlanta. Grew up, played football, went to college, did my undergrad playing football, graduated from Savannah State with a business degree. I did a little work, you know, in the industry for about a year or so, went back and got my master's at THE Ohio State University, majored in labor and human resources, but then immediately after I got my degree I went into corporate America, spending almost 10 years in HR in various areas in a few different industries, including aviation, medical device, life sciences, pharma. You know, I've had the--over that time I've had the pleasure of traveling all over the world, and I've had opportunities to live in a few different places across the Midwest and Northeast of the United States, and so, you know, what I do and the experiences I bring, right, I believe are one of the values that I hold. I have a wonderful family, a beautiful wife of five years and two incredible kids. And as you mentioned, I am the founder and CEO of Jump Recruits, and so just to give a brief, Jump Recruits is a full-service diversity and inclusion technology start-up, and it's dedicated to and about inclusion, opportunity, and successful career outcomes for diverse professionals and employers seeking quality diverse talent. And I've been on this journey for almost three years, actually three years, and like Charles Dickens said, "It's been the best of times, it's been the worst of times," but to be honest, through it all, I wouldn't change anything.Zach: First of all, man, you were talking about I gave one of the best intros. That was one of the best, you know what I'm saying, guest intros. It was just--it was, you know, comprehensive, right? You gave a little bit of the sensitive side with the family tip. You gave some of your vulnerable side on the journey with Jump Recruits, and then you gave a bit of, like, just the history of kind of where you're from and what you did. As a side-note, shout-out to the Georgia boys. I was actually born in Rome, Georgia.Cedric: There you go. Look there, you're country too, man. [laughs]Zach: Oh, listen, with a K. [both laugh]Cedric: And that's the one thing--look, we can talk about it as we get into it, right, but I've been in different environments and, you know, traveling across, and I have a deep Southern dialect, and when I go into different places people immediately, you know, hear that. And so we'll probably get into that a little bit later, but, you know, it's all good, right? Embrace where you come from and just be authentic.Zach: Oh, no doubt, man. And, you know, it's just interesting because for me--just because of my exposure. So I went to--I was in Georgia, and then I went to Dallas, and then I went to Minnesota. So, like, my accent kind of comes and goes, or the drawl of my Southern--like, my Southern drawl kind of will recede or kind of extend during--just depending on the situation, right? But at the same time it don't matter about that part. I tell people all the time. I say, "Listen, don't let this pocket square fool you, okay? I'm very country. Don't play with me." [both laugh] Cedric: I'm with you.Zach: Yeah, man. So look, we're talking today about diversity. It's a super common term, right? And honestly a lot of folks use the term "diversity and inclusion" in a broad swath of ways, right? So, like, for you though, what does diversity mean?Cedric: Yes, great question. So, you know, I would say that, you know, when I think about diversity and the term, right, to me, what I pull from it is uniqueness in every way. You know, whether that be race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, perspective, et cetera. You know, when I think about diversity, I think about the setting and context in which it's being applied and the term, because diversity can have different meanings in different places depending on where you're applying it, right? And so, you know, I've lived around. And so living in Atlanta, diversity can be different than living in Wisconsin, where I've lived, can be different than living in Boston, where I've lived, can be different than living in Ohio, where I've lived, but that commonality that I think of is uniqueness and what are you bringing that's unique, what are you bringing that is one yourself authentic as I said before, but I always think about that is when we want to use this word "diversity" and think about "Yes, things are different," but in a different way, you know, how are you unique, and how are you bringing that uniqueness, you know, to everything that you're doing?Zach: You know, and it's interesting, right? Because a lot of times when we talk about diversity I think, like you just said, it's, like, uniqueness in every way. In every way, right? Checking a variety of boxes, right? Just what does it look to be non-standard or non-default? And so with that being said, I'm curious, do you have any particular thoughts around the concept of diversity of thought, and have you ever gotten that pushback in your work with Jump Recruits--they'll be like, "Okay, I see you have all of these, you know--" "You know, ethnic diversity is the only diversity. [?]. Diversity of thought." Like, what do you--[both laugh] When you hear that, like, what is your response?Cedric: Oh, man. I'm not gonna make it through this interview. [both laugh]Zach: Nah, I'ma keep it a bean with you. I'ma keep it a bean with you, right? Because when people say "diversity of thought" to me--I don't know how long you've been rocking with the Living Corporate podcast, and I'm actually surprised we didn't get canceled off of this joke, [Cedric laughs] but one time--and I'ma say it again so y'all have the opportunity to cancel me again. I said that white people made diversity of thought in the same lab they made crack. [both laugh] So you know--so now you know the Living Corporate official position, and yes--look, there's nobody y'all can complain to. Y'all listening to the podcast, if y'all got a problem the emails are gonna come to me and Ade, okay? So be mad, all right? Anyway, back to this interview. So Cedric, what your thoughts on diversity of thought, man? [laughs]Cedric: Look, and perspectives, right? You know, I hear a lot of things, and perspective, right, you've got to understand people's perspective, right? And even what you said, like, you know, I can see the perspective, right, and that's the one thing. You've got to come with an open mind and an open heart into situations, but, you know, thinking about diversity of thought--so, you know, unfortunately I have heard "diversity of thought" and have, you know, seen it used as a pushback, and when I hear it it's typically used in the context of either/or, and what I mean is when I'm having these discussions, and, you know, we could be talking about, you know, diversity, we could be talking about ethnicity and these things, and they bring up diversity of thought. They're saying that either I focus on having diversity of race, gender, sexuality, or I focus on having diversity of thought, which is not the way it should be looked at, right? And so it should be viewed as an and, meaning, like, yes, you should value diversity of thought, and then addition value diversity of background," i.e. race, gender, sexuality, et cetera. But so many people take that position of, you know, "I can't value both, and so I'ma go with the safest way out and say I value diversity of thought as a whole," and depending on how long you let those people talk, right, you can get down into the rabbit holes of, you know, the common terms of "I don't see color," X, Y, and Z, right? So, you know, that's a whole podcast by itself. [both laugh] But, you know, when I've encountered it as a pushback, you know, whether it be clients, prospects, or just in general casual conversations, I usually approach it from the perspective of "Hey, look, you're right. Diversity of thought is important and critical to the success of the team, organization, and relationships," but then I always follow up in that discussion with the question of "Well, then how do you acquire diversity of thought?" Because how a person thinks is heavily based on experiences and backgrounds, and if you aren't pulling from different pools and different backgrounds which have different experiences, then how do you achieve this goal of diversity of thought you're ultimately looking for? And I typically at this point get blank stares, [both laugh] which is great for me because now the real conversation can start, and we can start on even ground to say, "Okay, now let's talk through it and work this out."Zach: Man, you know, that's a great answer, and, you know, I'll tell you what I typically say, right? So, for background, right, I'm in change management. Like, I'm a consultant, so, like, I'm having these conversations where people say "diversity of thought," I'll say something like, "Well, you're absolutely right. Diversity of thought is important, and it directly intersects or it is correlated with diversity of race, gender, sexuality, so on and so forth." Those things are not mutually exclusive, right? On the outside they're giving me the blank stares that they give you, but on the inside I know they're doing a [“and I oop” sfx], you know what I'm saying? [both laugh] They trying to figure out like, "Okay, what do I do?" You know what I'm saying? So I definitely get that. So let's do this then. What are some of the biggest excuses you've heard organizations give as to why they don't have black and brown folks in their organizations? I'm talking black and brown disabled people, black and brown LGBTQ people, black and brown immigrants, black and brown--like, just why? Why is that? What are some of the biggest excuses you've heard?Cedric: You know, I'd probably go with the biggest that I've heard, seen, and I think everybody kind of rallies around, but the biggest is that there's an issue with the pipeline and that there isn't enough qualified black and brown talent for those companies to pull from. Which is totally false, right? Zach: Yeah, man.Cedric: And it's like--I'm not gonna go into why do we keep listening to that lie, [both laugh] so--Zach: Well, I think--let me shoot you some bell, right? I think for me it's challenging because it's like--one, I don't think people, like, really examine or really have examined how offensive and insulting that is, right?Cedric: Yeah. Yeah.Zach: Like, fam, come on, man. Like, we've been here. Like, so--Cedric: It's like you're doing what you can do, you're pushing out the best, and then someone says, "Well, I still don't see you."Zach: Come on, man.Cedric: And that's where it's coming from. Like, it's like we got so many great, you know, whether it be engineers graduating, you've got so many great doctors, you've got so many great scientists, right? We're doing so many things in the news, and it's still, like, this message of "I still don't see you."Zach: And we're all over here like [what more do you want from me? sfx] [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? Like, God. Cedric: Exactly, exactly. And look, I won't be naive to think that there are as many people of color as there are non-people of color, so I won't bet that, but for instance, like, we know that, for a fact, there are less black and brown engineers that graduate for college every year than their counterparts, and the National Society of Black Engineers have done a lot of great research in this area, and they actually have campaigns going on now to increase that number of black engineers graduating every year, black and brown. But what we also know is that from having these discussions daily with corporate leaders as I do, these same organizations are not going to the places and communities where black and brown people are, and they are not effectively attracting and hiring the great talent that's already in the market today. And if I could provide an illustration for you real quick - look at it like this. If I want to go catch a fish, I can't possibly do that by casting my line on land. I must cast in the water where the fish are, and that's what is happening today. Many companies--not all, and I will say not all, but many are casting in the wrong places, and as I see this conversation over and over and I hear this excuse, the question that I often ask myself or that, you know, we must ask is "Are companies knowingly casting in the wrong places because they don't want black and brown talent, or are they misinformed on where to cast?" And honestly I think it's both.Zach: That's a--hold on, hold on. Wait a minute. [Flex bomb sfx] That's a Flex bomb. Yeah, no, you're right. I think it's both. I don't think it's one or the other, and I think really when you talk about these topics, it's often a case of both/and, right? It's rarely ever one versus the other. Because I've had conversations, and I'm--look, I have a nuanced opinion on this, right? Like, when you talk about sourcing candidates--and so, like, you know, you'll hear organizations say, "We're gonna just recruit at all HBCUs." Okay. Yes, you should definitely recruit at the HBCUs, but there's also black and brown folks at the PWIs too, man. [both laugh] Like, all of the black people--like, man all of the black people are not just flocking to HBCUs. HBCUs are expensive. Like, I love me some HBCUs. Ayo, please, y'all, do not cancel me. We love y'all. PV, I see you. Okay? Prairie View, we see you, okay? Texas Southern, we see you. Cedric: Savannah State. Let's go. [laughs]Zach: Savannah State, we see you. Morehouse. Listen, we love y'all, okay? I'm just saying I went to a PWI, and there were many black and brown folks in my space who did not know what they was doing when they graduated, right? So there's talent there. They're in the same rooms with Becky and Keith and whoever else. Like, it's both, man, and I don't know why, but when I hear, like, "pipeline strategies," I hear--I hear--when we talk about minority talent, ethnic minority talent, it's like we're not even trying to think about how we plug into the PWIs. We just say, "Oh, we're just gonna go with the HBCUs." It's like, "You can do both. You can plug into the HBCUs and then look for and look at the student programs," 'cause every PWI has one, right? Every PWI has some program where the black and brown folks have huddled together to say, "Pick us." [laughs] So, like, you just gotta plug in.Cedric: You know, that's right, and it's--the word I'm going to say, for lack of better terms, is laziness. That's what it is, and it's the--you know, being in corporate, right, I've done HBCUs, I've done the PWI. There is a stark difference between the two as far as the resources and opportunities between the two, where I was in a career fair at, you know, HBCUs to where you're talking 20 to 30 companies, a lot of 'em banks and local banks, a lot of 'em militaries--the military is trying to recruit, but then go to PWI, and, like, you're talking about 200 of the Fortune 500 companies in here vying for spots, right? So the opportunity and resources--and then on top of that, when you engage with HBCUs and HSIs and the communities--and let's say this quickly--it's that it's more than money. That's what happened. It's "Hey, let's go give scholarships. Hey, let's go out and let's see, you know, what we can do from a recruiting effort." It's just transactional the entire time, and when you think about big schools, right, to where--whether it's the PWIs, and you think about some of these big companies. One of the biggest differences--if you want to come to an HBCU or an HSI, I need you to look at this long-term, and I need you to look at this and say, "We're talking about money, but not just money, we're talking about resources," i.e. training and development, and there are many institutions--predominantly white--where large companies are staples on their campuses, teaching them the skills and knowledge needed to be successful, not only today but in the future. I mean, these companies have offices in their career development office, right, and they're talking about data analytics, A.I., machine learning. And these companies even have--some of their senior officers are subject matter experts at these campuses teaching the classes. Zach: Man, they be in there. They be hitting up--they tapping every avenue of that relationship like [Cardi B "brat" sfx]. [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? They light that thing up.Cedric: Exactly, exactly. And so when you think about all of those resources, then you turn around and say, "Well, look, let's give a scholarship to somebody," or "Let's go out and let's go to this career fair," and then they don't see you again for another 12 months. It's how d you expect to build that pipeline? How do you expect to build that relationship, that brand and all of the little things that come along with it, if you're not invested? Now, I'ma say this, that's not all, but there's definitely a lot that's [?].Zach: Man, you're 100%. So look, I'm also gonna say something else. Cedric, I don't know, man, what [it is] about this interview, but I just feel like I gotta keep it a buck today. We keep it a buck on Living Corporate generally speaking. Like, don't get me wrong. We be dropping heat on here, okay? Hold on. Wait a second. Shout-out to my team, 'cause, like, we really be doing this, you know what I'm saying? [Kawhi "what it do baby" sfx] You know what I'm saying? We out here, okay? [both laugh] But this is my biggest thing. This is another personal pain point, right, is like we gotta make sure that when black and brown folks--like, when we go out to these HBCUs and, like, we're doing this stuff, like, we have to also bring this thought leadership and take it to the folks who are in charge, right? So, like, we gotta be talking to the recruitment teams, 'cause a lot of times--I'll say in consulting, right? I'm not gonna say the firm. I've been at a few. So I was at a firm, and, like, there was this common narrative that there was an HBCU that we did not hire for, like, the client-facing stuff. We only hired them for the technical stuff, and the reason was because they don't really have the skill set, right? And, like, we would, like--I'm saying, like, the black folks, like, we would lean into that narrative, like, "Yeah, they don't have the skill set. They're just not really--" And it's like, "Okay, first of all, what are you doing? Like, why would you--don't parrot that out loud." Like, let's figure out ways we can help our people. And then two let's, like, just ask the deeper why and think critically about "Well, why don't we believe they have that skill set, and what can we do to help develop that skill set?" And all of the things that you're talking about are 100% facts, but I think it takes a--it's gonna take a joint effort, right? And I 100% agree with you. So let's do this, 'cause I know we're coming up on time. So multiple whitepapers state that before organizations can seek to diversify their organizations, they should seek to diversify leadership and build an inclusive culture. What's your point of view on that, and what does it practically look like for you to help organizations be more inclusive at the leadership level before you start bringing in, like, the campus level undergrad, direct hire talent?Cedric: Oh, man, great question. I think--let's see if I can get both of these. So when it comes to diversity and inclusion, my perspective and point of view is that they have to have it at the same time, and I think that there are different levels at which they happen at. Like, you could float heavy to inclusion but then still do diversity and recruitment and things of that nature and vice versa, but it depends on the organization in which you're in, the culture and what's going on. And I start with inclusion first just to kind of go into it and say, "Let's think this for a second and say, "How do you build an inclusive culture if you don't have any representation, i.e. diversity, from the groups in which you're aiming to affect?" And so--and without this representation, this means that there's nobody from these groups that are able to input on the design of this diversity and inclusion strategy. And so when you talk about this inclusive culture, you have less than 1% of [?] in the organization, you know, less than 20%, you know, women in your organization, how are you gonna go and effectively--and on a leadership level it's definitely not there--how are you gonna go in and actually do this if the representation is not there? And so when you think about diversity, you gotta "Okay, are we bringing leadership in at the same of building that inclusive culture and doing those things at the top and then pushing it down?" As it relates to leadership, look, I would agree, but it goes back to representation, right? How can you effectively have a diversity and inclusion strategy driven from the top down when the top has no representation from the diverse groups in which you're designing for? And so I also say this. We surveyed candidates that had been hired and had received offers from companies. 87% of those candidates that we surveyed say that one of the first things they do when researching the company they're interviewing with is go to the leadership page and see who on the page looks like them. And then--Zach: Keep going, keep going. Preach.Cedric: And of that, 60% of that group say that that was a major factor on whether they accepted the job or not. And if you'll allow me to go just a step further, one of the things we do in our consulting area looks at, like, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, and when you think about the top of that pyramid, and we get to self-actualization, the definition of self-actualization is "the realization of one's full potential." So let's think about this. How can I realize my full potential within an organization when I go to the corporate leadership page and I see no one that looks like me? And then how can that help me see myself as rising my career aspirations when I can't see myself on the website, I can't see myself in leadership, you know? I didn't see myself in the interview process with the people that I interviewed with. How can I actually see myself thriving in this organization? I can't.Zach: [straight up sfx, both laugh] No, you can't. Cedric, man, it's so funny. So what I've been doing--'cause I'm coming up on 30, right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Whatever.Cedric: Big time.Zach: Man, listen. It's different, man. Things creaking now, you know what I'm saying? Knees be sore for no reason. It's weird.Cedric: I know. It starts raining and your knee hurts, right?Zach: Right. It's like, "What's going on?" Cedric: Yeah, it's coming. It's coming.Zach: [both laugh] But you're 100% right. Like, lately when I do--like, when I interview, right, when I have the opportunity and people reach out, whatever, I'll always ask, like, "How imperative is your inclusion and diversity strategy at your organization?" They'll say, "Oh, it's very imperative. It's super important. Blah blah blah blah," and I'm like, "Okay, cool." So then I go, you know what I'm saying, I go to the little executive page, right, and, you know, the board looks like--you know, the first, you know, seven, eight presidents like [haha sfx]. I'm like, "Come on, man. Y'all not seeing this, man? This is crazy. This looks like a bunch of dollar bills up here." Like, this is crazy.Cedric: [laughs] Exactly, but that's representation, and so that's diversity, you know, from a recruitment aspect, adding them to the mix, and then inclusion is working on the other hand, trying to make it work. And so you're trying to do both, right? It's almost like--you know, in some cases, right--I mean, I'm from the country, right? And so there's certain cases and certain things where you need to mix and you need to pour stuff in at the same time to get that evenly distributed, and that's the diversity, right, man? You pour the diversity in while you're stirring the inclusion, and you're doing it at the same time, with both hands, because you need for it to evenly get into the mix so that when you look at the cake mix and batter it's something that you can go in and move forward with, right? It's not clumped up. It's not over here. It's not--I'm not gonna say segregated or whatever the case may be, right? You know, things are mixed in together, but they still have their identity, man. So it's--you know, it's interesting.Zach: Let me go ahead and saute on that metaphor, that analogy you got right there. So it's interesting, because even when you make a cake--'cause honestly I thought you were gonna go with, like, a sweet tea analogy, but either way, with sweet tea or cake, right, you gotta make sure you add heat to that jaunt so that way it actually, like, actually comes together, because--and even though that heat might be uncomfortable or may seem uncomfortable, you've got to put on some gloves or whatever and you've got to put it in the oven. You've got to wait, but it's gonna all congeal for the cake--or you gotta turn up the dial on the stove to make sure it gets hot enough so everything can come together, so it can actually merge into one thing that you can actually consume, that you can actually enjoy. It's the same thing, man. In that mixing process, you've got to add some heat to that. That heat might be, you know, accountable conversations, you know? True planning around how we're actually gonna make all this happen, how we're gonna mobilize our inclusion strategy, what does it mean to, like, really build a culture of sponsorship for your organization, and then that creates that culture that you're talking about.Cedric: There you go, there you go. I'm with it. I'm with it. [laughs]Zach: Now, look, let me respect your time. I got one more question for you.Cedric: Go for it, man. I'm here.Zach: What recommendations would give to the average white executive/power holder who wants their organization to be more diverse but isn't getting the talent they're looking for--they're not seeing the talent, you know, at the executive level?Cedric: Oh, man. That's a loaded question. You said white executive/power holder. [both laugh] I'll say this, and I'll say this for all senior executives, not just white--and I'ma primarily speak to CEOs and chief HR officers on this one--look, if you've decided that diversity and inclusion is imperative to the success of your organization, then I think you need to take this approach. First, go out and hire you a chief diversity officer. That's step one. Step two: for the first five to seven years on this journey, that chief diversity officer needs to report directly to the CEO. Not HR, not strategy, not social responsibility or impact. Have them reporting directly to the CEO. This not only will have a visual impact, but it will solidify that just like finance, just like strategy, just like engineering, just like HR, that diversity and inclusion is imperative to the business and it has a direct line to the highest of the high. And I believe it was Steve Jobs that said this, and he said it in the context of design. It's that "If a part of your business is so important to the CEO, it must report to the CEO," because then only can that organization place the same importance on it as the CEO does, and so you're going out and you're saying, "Hey, we believe in diversity," but then the diversity officer is four layers down in the organization [train?] and doesn't have any say-so, power, or ability to go make things happen. But now when that person reports directly to the CEO, and we're talking top-down--they say, "Hey, this is the move, and this is where we're going," and that person is right there, direct communication can get things signed off, accomplished, done quick. That puts you in a better position to be able to accomplish that goal.Zach: Man, I love that. And, you know, it's interesting because I think that kind of transitions--that transitions that D&I space from being just, like, another thing that's, like, in the compliance piece into something that becomes, like, a strategy imperative for the enterprise, right? A lot of times when we think about diversity we're just thinking about ways to avoid, you know, this sound, right? [Law and Order sfx] You know, just trying to make sure you don't get in trouble, you know what I'm saying? [both laugh]Cedric: Oh, man. And also, look--so I was in HR, right? In every organization that I supported, you got the business leader, you got the HR person, you got the finance person, you got quality, you got engineers, but they're in that organization. And so HR is in every organization. Finance is in every organization, right? And so diversity is in every organization. The same way you look at diversity of people, you should be looking at diversity of suppliers. The same way you're looking at diversity of marketing, the way you're looking at diversity and how you're looking at your strategy, where you're going--like, diversity is embedded in every one of those, and if it doesn't have that same vertical as the strategy/HR/finance organization, then how can it have the horizontal piece to where it cuts across all to be able to have that impact and show up in the every day workings and doings of how people act and how they work and how they do their jobs?Zach: No, 100%, man. You know what? You've been dropping bar-bar-bars, man. Like, just [Mario coin sfx x2]. You know what I'm saying?Cedric: [laughs] I love it, man. I love it.Zach: Man, I love it. Now, this has been a dope conversation. Before we go, do you have any shout-outs or parting words?Cedric: Oh, man. Look, I would say one, you know, shout-out to Jump Recruits, right? You can go find more information at JumpRecruits.com. Look, you know, the team, shout-out to my family and my wife, and look, I would say shout-out to all of the leaders, the employees, the janitors, whoever it may be that's out there actively pushing diversity, out there actively pushing inclusion, whether it be in your small circle and you're influencing those around you or whether it's at a large, large scale. Congrats, and I thank you, and I ask you to continue, to continue to push and continue to be--you don't have to be an activist, but you do have to be active. And so, look, continue to do great things, and I just--I love it.Zach: Wow, man. Yo, shout-out--man, round of applause, man, for Cedric, man. [applause sfx] My goodness gracious, man. This has been great, man. Thank you, and thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com, please say the dash, you know what I'm saying? Look, we've got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate. all of 'em except livingcorporate.com, Cedric, believe it or not, 'cause Australia's still got livingcorporate.com, and I'm like, "Man." So I don't know what we gotta do--Cedric: All of that. We're coming to talk to you, Australia. We're gonna have a conversation. 20/20. We need that. We need that.Zach: We need that. We need that. Look, man, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Cedric Chambers, CEO and founder of Jump Recruits. Peace.

Zach speaks with Jennifer Brown, founder and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting, and they take a deep dive into exploring what diversity and inclusion means. They also talk about what it really means to be inclusive as a leader, and Jennifer shares a bit about her latest two books. Check out Jennifer's books! They're titled "Inclusion" and "How to Be an Inclusive Leader."Connect with Jennifer on the following platforms: Twitter, IG, Facebook, LinkedInPut your name on the mailing list at JenniferBrownSpeaks.com!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, y'all know what we do, man. [laughs] Y'all know. Listen, man, we try to drop--come on, Sound Man. Give me them air horns right here. [air horns sfx]. More fire for your head top, and look, today is no different. I ain't even gonna get into a huge, long kind of, like, intro before I get into the interview, 'cause our interview was kind of long, but I really want y'all to hear all of it. I interviewed someone who is a strong--seriously, like, one of the leaders within the D&I space when you talk about, like, presenting content around intersectionality, diversity, inclusion. Her name is Jennifer Brown. She's a facilitator. She's a public speaker. She's a consultant. She's an educator. She has a background in change management, so there's a lot of symbiosis between the both of us, and we had a really dope discussion just about what it really means to be inclusive as a leader, and then we had a conversation--like, kind of a meta discussion about the D&I space as an industry. If y'all remember--this was, like, way back in Season 1--we had Amy C. Waninger, and then we had Drew, A.K.A. Very White Guy, on the show, and Drew talked a little bit about the--, like, D&I as a business, right, and kind of, like, the capitalistic or corporate nature of D&I and, like, what that looks like, and we had a conversation about that too. It was really interesting. So anyway, what you're gonna hear next is the discussion between Jennifer Brown and myself. She's great people, definitely can't wait to have her back on the show. Make sure y'all check out the show notes. You can look and see all of her information, including her latest two books, okay? So make sure y'all check it out, and we'll catch y'all next time. Peace.[pause]Zach: Jennifer, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Jennifer: Oh, thanks. I'm doing great. Trying to stay cool in this July.Zach: Man, it is hot out here.Jennifer: Yeah. Global warming. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] For real. Look, I gave a brief intro, but for those who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Jennifer: Of course, yeah. I--let's see. I'm an author. I'm a keynoter. I'm a CEO and an owner of a consulting business, all of which is focused on building more inclusive workplaces for all kinds of talent to thrive, and it's a passionate, personal mission that I have because I've been out since I was 22, and I'm in my 40s now, but the workplace was a place where I couldn't really bring my full self to work. And I want to say it wasn't just being LGBTQ. I mean, the workplace has all sorts of inclusiveness problems when it comes to people like, you know, us, and, you know, most people actually. Anyone that's not a certain mold, and so as somebody who has--I have a master's degree in opera, believe it or not. I came to New York to be an opera singer, and that did not work out.Zach: Wow.Jennifer: Yeah, I know. [laughs] It's crazy. Luckily I reinvented as a corporate trainer, because it's all this--it's like being on the stage, you know, and connecting with audiences. It's just the topic is different. So I reinvented into that field, which remains really my field to this day. So we're really--we're a strategy and training company, and we're working across the Fortune 1,000, I would say, on a daily basis. My team is all over the country. They're amazing. They're so talented at what they do. They have a lot more patience for client work than I do. [laughs] And yeah, we can talk about that if you want, but I've been a consultant in the trenches for a long time, and I'm actually really thrilled now to kind of be more living the keynote and author life. I just--I like it a lot. I love performing. I love big audiences. I like the challenge of thinking on my feet. I like having to write books on this topic and figure out, like, "What does the world need me to write next, and how do I take what I hear and learn and put it in a way that's digestible for people?" Because it's really--it's kind of, like, a life-or-death situation from an inclusion perspective, and I deeply feel that, for myself and many, many others.Zach: Wow. Well, thank you for that. Awesome. I'm already--like, my shoulders are kind of bouncing up and down. This is gonna be a dope conversation.Jennifer: Woo! Yeah. [both laugh]Zach: So today we're talking about inclusive leadership, and before we get too deep into it, can we get some definitions on these terms? Like, from your point of view. Diversity, inclusion, and intersectionality. 'Cause in a lot--in your content and in your IP, both written and your presentations, like, you use these terms a lot, and frankly your content is centered around these terms. For our audience, I'd love it if we could just, like, level-set what these things actually mean.Jennifer: Yes, and you need to consider the history of the conversation. So in the corporate and workplace context, diversity is really--has been traditionally the "who," right? The demographics, the representation in your workforce. Typically it's [counted with?] gender, right? Which is where it started, and race and ethnicity. It wants to count LGBTQ and people with disabilities, but, you know, a lot of those folks can hide who they are, right? We are very good at hiding who we are and not checking boxes. So diversity has really been that representation, the mix, the complexion of the workplace [with a small C?]. And then inclusion really is the "how." So "How do I make that mix work?" You know? "If diversity is the "who" in the mix, how do I make the mix work?" To quote my friend Tyrone Studemeyer, who is, like, a great chief diversity officer. He always uses that example. In fact, he brings a glass of milk on stage and pours in chocolate sauce, and then he stirs it, and he has this bit that he does. So it's making the mix work, and honestly's that's really where behaviors come into play. And so it's how--once you have that talent around the table, how do you make them want to stay? How do you include them, and how do you make them feel that they're valued? And so inclusion is the how and the behaviors. And then intersectionality, something totally different. It is the mix, I guess, of diverse identities that make some of us who we are and kind of present unique challenges. Traditionally defined by Kimberle Crenshaw, of course, it's the mix of multiple stigmatized identities that one person may carry. So why that's important is that I think, you know, anyone who looks at gender issues, for example, as a white women's topic, is not taking into consideration how women of color are impacted differently, how being an LGBTQ woman may mean that you're not only dealing with your gender and all the headwinds that come along with that, but you're dealing with the headwinds relating to sexual orientation. Or say you have, you know, a non-binary gender expression, or you are a woman of color and some of those things at the same time, or a woman with a disability. So it just goes on and on, and that's a very helpful thing for the rest of the world, I think, to help people understand the levels of--and I would use privilege with a small P. I know that word sets some people off, you know, but I think we have to be realistic about some of us walking through the world feeling a lot safer and a lot more protected, a lot more supported. You know, right? Like, a lot more--that others are more comfortable with us because they're relatively more familiar with us, and the sort of further you get away from I guess the straight white male norm that is, like it or not, the whole of the top leadership in the business world. The further you get from that, I think the more difficulty you have in kind of seeing yourself in workplaces, in being supported, grown, invested in, welcomed, proactively fostered. You know, all of the things that really, like, pull you up in an organization. So, you know, when you're different in multiple ways, it's kind of difficult to ever feel that you're in that--in the place you should be in the machine that is the workplace. So, you know, this is where people fall out. They quit. They can't stand it anymore. [laughs] You know, they go and become entrepreneurs, which is great, you know, but sad for corporations and large employers because, of course, you know, you're bleeding out all of your diverse talent because your culture is sort of something that people can't stand. That's a problem. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] No, you're absolutely right, and it's interesting, right, because I was just having a conversation with a couple of close friends this morning, and I was talking about the fact that a lot of times, you know, when we talk about D&I in the most common contexts, it almost feels like some--like, really a competition between white men and [white women] for number one, and then kind of everybody else falls to the wayside. Right? Like, we don't necessarily have, like--I don't know if I'm necessarily always hearing, like, truly intersectional discussions around identity. I don't know, and I don't know if black women are often centered in those discussions. Of course in the past couple years we've seen, like, more and more content come out about it, so don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be a debbie downer, but at the same time--Jennifer: [laughs] But you're right.Zach: [laughs] I mean, here's a great example, right? So I think it was--yep, Indeed. So Indeed just dropped a commercial, and there was a--the setting was, like, a board room, right, and in the board room, a white man was in the front and he was getting a promotion, right? And, like, the boss was shaking his hand, and everybody was clapping, and then there was a white woman, and she was just kind of standing there, and it was clearly--like, by the framing, right, of the commercial, that she was passed over for this promotion and that the white man got the promotion over her, right? And I was like, "Okay." And so then she looks down at her phone, and she kind of smirks because she gets a notification she's getting an interview, you know, somewhere else, right?Jennifer: [laughs] Oh, my gosh.Zach: Right? So she's like, "I'm leaving," and then it said, "Indeed." You know? I was like, "Okay, cool." So great commercial, but what's interesting about that commercial was behind the white woman--and I don't believe they did this intentionally, but maybe they did--and if they did, yo, they are super cold--but there was a black woman and a black man out of focus right behind them. And so it was, like, super interesting.Jennifer: [sighs] Oh, goodness. Wow. Oh, somebody needs to give that feedback. I'm sure they've heard about it already. [both laugh]Zach: But, like, the idea that a lot of times we talk about D&I, right, it's often centered around gender. We're not having really authentic discussions outside of that. And so a question for you - you know, in your book "Inclusion: Diversity, the New Workplace & the Will to Change," you discussed the nuances of privilege. And you just talked about lower-case privilege, lower-case P privilege. And to make an effort not to vilify white men who have, quote, "seemingly won the privilege lottery." Is it possible to manage the egos of leaders who are in the majority while also having frank and accountable discussions about empowering black and brown professionals or just non-white professionals in the workplace? You know, in your work, what does that process look like? To establish trust for those discussions.Jennifer: Yeah. I mean, that is really the work, and it's--I think it's, like, the third rail, honestly. It's funny - being in the LGBTQ community, there's a level of--strangely, a level of comfort and acceptance of talking about being "I'm a proud ally," you know, or putting that rainbow sticker on your desk or in your email signature. And it's fascinating to me because--by the way, the LGBTQ conversation is also not properly intersectional, right? So there's privileged dynamics playing out in my--this community. I was going to say "my" community. One of my communities, you know, that women's voices aren't well-heard. People of color and the LGBTQ community, trans people, are not well-heard and are not represented in leadership positions in the workplace when it comes to affinity groups and things. So each community has its kind of diversity within its diversity challenges. [laughs] So I just wanted to make that point, because--I often say, "Just because you carry a marginalized identity, or even two, does not make you an inclusive leader."Zach: That's so true.Jennifer: Like, I wish it were true, but it's not, and it's been proven to me over and over again that, you know, I've made that assumption, and I've kind of been wrong. Like, I've been shocked by what people say. So, like, these--like, a lack of that intersectional lens and that inclusive lens can live in all of us, by the way. Elitism and, you know, that blindness and bias. Unchecked. Anyway, that's one point I wanted to make. So how do we center more black and brown voices when the leadership of so many companies--and when you say they are the majority, we always have to clarify. I say majority in leadership positions, because if you look at the aggregate in most companies, of course, women are the majority. Zach: That's absolutely correct, yeah.Jennifer: Right, and then a lot of ethnic diversity lives in different functional areas of the business and, you know, whatever, right? But it just totally thins out, like, when you go up the org chart, right? So the problem is all the power lies with a sort of very homogeneous group, and so the onus is on that group to acknowledge that the world is more and more black and brown, right? That they have to build that confidence and cross those bridges of understanding, and they have to know how to build trust with their workforce. Both current and future, by the way, which is most likely not going to look like them. And then they've got to do it in such a way that they--that then their employee and their leadership base looks like the world that they serve, which is increasingly female, right? Think about the buying decisions. Think about the exploding buying power of the black community. The LGBTQ community is now a trillion-dollar buying power. I mean, it's massive. So any brand that's worth anything, and any leader that's worth anything, must look at this, should look at this, and say, you know, "My demographic group--maybe it was okay for me not to understand what keeps people in the organization I'm a part of or keeps people on my team or how to be a good colleague and sort of step out of my shoes and think about what the other person's experience is like, but I better search and pay attention to this." So my argument is always I throw the business case to people, the demographic argument to people. Sometimes it's a moral argument. Sometimes somebody, you know, has kids of a different race than they are. Sometimes they have lots of daughters. Like, sometimes, you know, they have a unique view on all of this, and so when you, you know, [see?] somebody that looks like a white, straight guy, you know, you just never know what their diversity story might be, and I've been just shocked and reminded that, you know, I can--I can walk in a room and people assume I know nothing about this topic, you know? And that's happened to me. I've been on the receiving end of that. And there are things I don't know, for sure, but I desperately want people to listen to me and somehow kind of wedge my way in and make them listen and convince them and all of those things. So being LGBTQ helps with that. So I'm this interesting hybrid of, you know, being of an identity that people are more comfortable with, like, based on maybe what they see, but then coming out and challenging them to the point where, like, you can hear a pin drop when I do that, and that's kind of--let me tell you, it's pretty uncomfortable when you're standing there in front of, like, 1,000 mostly men in, like, light blue shirts and khakis. You're like, "How is this gonna go?" [laughs] So it takes--for all of us, you know, I think it takes bravery to show ourselves. For some of us with invisible aspects of diversity, it takes kind of a unique kind of bravery to be like, "No." Like, "Make no mistake, this is actually who I am." And particularly if it's a vulnerable aspect of who you are. It can feel really risky. That could include, like, divulging about a disability or, you know, mental health and addiction issues, or age, you know? There's just this, like, widespread hesitation to bring our full selves to work on so many counts, but when you are black and brown of course the issue can be "I can't opt not to show who I am." Like, "Who I am is often visible," and it will trigger the biases if those are there, right? And so it's a conversation we always have about--it's not the pain Olympics, and that's so important to remember. Like, that it's not--it's not a race to the--through the oppression hierarchy to say--Zach: Right.Jennifer: Right? Because that's a useless conversation. I think we have to think about, like, what are the--what's the damage that happens when, you know, we feel shame, or we feel compelled to downplay who we are, even if it's very visible to others? And how can we support each other's voices and create that safety for each other? And that's what I think about every day. Like, if I have been given some kind of privilege with a small P [in] several ways that has been totally unearned by me--my obsession is, like, what responsibility and opportunity does that come with? Which is interesting, because I'm in the LGBTQ community, which is so used to needing that allyship, right? We think about--we struggle to bring our full selves and be comfortable, and we hide, you know? And so allies really bring us out, you know? They stand alongside us and say, "Hey, I'll tell your story. I'll be next to you. I'll have your back." It feels amazing to have that, and I know what that feeling feels like, and so I am turning around and, like, trying to do that for others with my people, which often is my lovely, often good-hearted, you know, white, straight male executive clients, you know, to say, "How can we help you bridge to the future?" Because opting out is not--that's not an option, you know? I think--and the more clued-in ones know this, and I think people are mostly feeling just, like, really--like, wanting to do more, very awkward, very afraid. I know in the light of MeToo, just purely a gender conversation, the--you know, that lean-in research that came out a couple months ago that says that, like, male leaders are, like, even more afraid now to be in these one-on-one scenarios with female mentees or colleagues, and it's really discouraging, and it's definitely going in the wrong direction, but I think that fear is probably bigger than just cross-gender. I think that it's just kind of any moves you might make to say, "Hey, I want to be an inclusive leader. I'm gonna mess up. I'm gonna say the right thing. I really, really want to be better, but how am I gonna learn this thing that I'm gonna get wrong, and where am I gonna learn it? And how am I gonna know that I'm getting it wrong? And then how am I going to be given a chance to develop better skills?" And that's a very legitimate question. So I think we've got to all kind of give each other a lot of berth and also proactive support these days to learn, and we've got to do that in partnership with each other, because otherwise we're learning in a vacuum, and that's hard to do.Zach: It's so complex though, right? Because it's like--like, there has to be space for grace, and then there also has to--like, on both sides, because there's grace for you to learn--there's grace for me to give you space to learn, but then there's also--there has to be humility for you to receive that learning, right? And then there needs to be empathy on the person who is learning for their teacher in that there is a level of emotional labor, right, that goes into me even talking to you about this at all, right? I had a conversation with some colleagues, like, about a month or so ago, and I was like, "Look." Like, something happened, and, you know, it was an educational discussion, and in part of my conversation I said, "Hey, you know, I don't talk about this because it's exhausting." I said, "But being in these majority-white spaces--just me being here is exhausting," and I explained that to them, and I said, "It's not just me. It's exhausting in some way or form or shape for someone in a minority to engage in majority spaces." Like, it is, and so, like, for the people that are doing the work to educate and train and teach or even partner--like, that's--like, there needs to be some empathy on that part, you know what I mean?Jennifer: Yeah. Well, we talk a lot about compassion fatigue, and I think that--and then us being asked to step forward and represent an entire community and their experience, which you and I know is never gonna be accurate. You're just one person talking about your experience. Zach: Right. Not [?], right.Jennifer: Right, but what you're talking about is something--what I say in my next book, right, "How to Be an Inclusive Leader," is that you need to do 80% of the emotional labor yourself before you ask someone to help you on your journey. Zach: Oh, I love that.Jennifer: It's so important, yes. And so for me, what that looks like is I intentionally consume certain media, for example. I listen to certain podcasts. I watch certain films. I acquaint myself with cultural norms across communities that are not mine, right? And in some cases it's a struggle through some of that media, because that media is not built for you. It's not a conversation for you, right? [both laugh] And I've had white friends, and I talk about, like, a podcast we may love. Like, one I love called "Still Processing." I don't know if you know it.Zach: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. "Still Processing" is fire. Shout-out to y'all, yes.Jennifer: Oh, it's so good. So good. And they're queer too. Like, I just love them. I mean, talk about intersectional. They're brilliant. And anyway, I sometimes have a hard time keeping up with it, but also getting all of the cultural references--and sometimes even I will feel, "Gosh, I'm such an outsider, and this is so uncomfortable for me, to try to hang in with the conversation." And then I say to myself--and this is what I say to leaders--"Notice the discomfort, because this is what other people feel every single day in majority-white spaces." Every day of their lives, right? Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: Like, you're uncomfortable for one second, right? Like, get used to it. Like, you should be putting yourself in this discomfort all of the time, because this is the competency. Like, this is the skill that you need to learn so that you get some iota of empathy for what it feels like every single day for other people. The other thing I wanted to say is we just had an LGBTQ--we called it LBTQ. It was just for women actually, so we dropped the G. [laughs] Which was--you know, people can have issues with it, but we dropped the G. It was just meant for Q-identified women. And we had this big conference, and we asked--we had a TON of diversity on the stage, which was my commitment, and we had a couple activists that were trans women of color, and they said, "I will come, but I want you to know, like, Pride is exhausting for me." It was in June. "It's exhausting for me. It's exhausting for me to walk into corporate spaces, to educate, to be that voice on stage, and I'm sort of doing this, but I want you to know it's, like, a lot of labor for me," and I want I guess for all of us that put panels together, for all of us that are speakers and on panels--it was such a learning for me to understand that when you ask someone, you're trying to be inclusive, but it is so seen through this lens of "Oh, I can take the day and go speak at this conference 'cause I work for myself," or, you know, "I'm an activist or an advocate." Like, an activist doesn't always look the same or have the same level of privilege or income. What is the lost income from taking a day out to go into a space you're not comfortable in and educate people about your experience? Like, it was really humbling. And what we ended up doing, by the way--and this may be helpful advice--is for all the speakers, that day we had 30 speakers, we really want to intend that we take up--we have a stipend and honorarium for people who take the time out to come into that space. There's a question of real money, you know, to offset that time and that labor. And again, this was another kind of learning for a lot of privileged people of the privilege that allows them to come in and speak all of the time on things that have a full-time job, you know, that have benefits, you know, that aren't witnessing, you know, the really, really painful reality of certain parts of our community every day. I just thought it was a really interesting demonstration within a marginalized community of sort of the gulf in our experiences, right, even within LBTQ women. So I think being mindful of intersectionality all of the time, it's incumbent--it's incumbent on anybody who has that platform, that voice, that comfort to whatever degree, to ensure spaces are diverse, to ensure voices are elevated, to center stories that aren't our own, and to make sure that those stories are given the proper platform and that people aren't overly requested to give up their time and education. But that means that each white person, each man, you know, when they support gender equality, I would ask, like, "What are you reading? What research do you have under your belt?" Like, "How are you exercising your muscle to show up in allyship, and what are you doing?" And then, and only then, can you ask for tweaks and feedback from people in affected communities. You know, "Did what I say resonate?" "Did the story--did I do this justice?" "Did I use my voice in the right way?" "What more could I have done?" Like, "What feedback would you have for me?" That can be asked, but so much has to be done and earned before that. And then--you know, and then bring somebody in to give you that feedback and make you better, because, you know, without that feedback I can promise you people aren't gonna get better, and they're just gonna keep stumbling, and stumbling is not good for anyone. [laughs] It's humiliating.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. [laughs] The thing about it is there's nothing--so I think the only thing worse than being loud and wrong is being really polished and wrong, right?Jennifer: Ooh, that's interesting.Zach: Right? It's like, you know, you're talking, you got the presentation, and, you know, you got your little clicker, and you got your three points and your--[both laugh] And your pantsuit looks great, but you are wrong.Jennifer: Oh, my gosh. It's in the corporate speak.Zach: Right, it's in the corporate speak, but--Jennifer: People can see through it.Zach: But you're absolutely wrong. And your earlier point about Pride, yeah, and, like, this past year was so big because it was the 50th anniversary of Stonewall, and it's interesting 'cause you talked about--you were talking just a bit about, like, the dissonance there and, like, the emotional labor for everyone who is a minority, but then specifically we're talking about trans activists, and it was so interesting because--I believe it was on the 30th. Like, right at the end of Pride there was a situation at Stonewall Inn where, you know, there was a desire from a trans women to speak up. She wanted to talk a little bit about the day and just reflect, and she was shouted down.Jennifer: No.Zach: Yeah, by gay men who were there in names of, "Hey, we just want to party. We don't want to hear all of that," and then eventually she was able to speak, and she spoke for about 12 minutes, but it was just really interesting. She read the names of the black trans women who died and facts and the disproportionate abuse and oppression that black trans women have and continue to face, and so you're absolutely right. Like, and I think it's incredible. I have yet to have the privilege to directly interview a black trans activist. Like, that's actually a serious [goal] of mine.Jennifer: I can hook you up.Zach: Well, let's do it. Let's talk about that after the interview. For sure.Jennifer: [laughs] Yeah, for sure. So yeah, it's been such a learning for me. And this is why I feel so--the ally energy in me these days, even in the LGBTQ community technically that I'm in, I feel so activated as an--and I don't even want to say, like, "I am an ally," because we're only allies when others give us that--give us that name and that honor, right? But I'll tell you, whether it's me as a cis woman--you know, I spend my time on the keynote stage asking people in the audience, "How many of you know what I mean by sharing our pronouns and why it's important? And how many of you know what cisgender means?" And sharing my identity and coming out as cisgender so that--and sharing my pronouns so that I'm not acting like heterosexuality and cisgenderness is normal, you know? We have to make it visible in order to even point out to people that this--we shouldn't be assuming this is normal, and you shouldn't be walking around every day assuming everybody shares your identity. Like, and we've that. I mean, so many of us have been so comfortable and--you know, I'll share it. You know this statistic probably, but it's so startling that 1 out of every 5 people under 34 is non-cis and non-straight. So 1 out of 5. So as you walk around your life, as you hire people, as you work with teams, as you meet customers, 1 out of 5, and yet the chances are that they're hiding that from you and they're not comfortable for you. So what can you do to say, "Hey, this is a safe place. I am someone that you can bring your whole self to me, around me, and I will see you, and I will be not only just open to it, but I will be embracing of it, and I won't assume that you're like me." You know, "I will give you the chance to self-identify," and I will self-identify. I will be brave in doing that, because, like, I'm not gonna put all the burden on you to talk about your experience, but I'm not gonna remain silent and not talk about mine." It's funny, because I get a lot of questions afterwards. People come up to me and say, "How do I start that conversation with someone?" To say, "Hey, I'm doing my work. I'm trying to learn. I want you to feel comfortable. What would you like me to know?" And we sort of walk through, like, "How do I even start that conversation?" Because people are really--they just don't know how to begin, and they don't know whether it will come across as authentic, and they're worried they're gonna be out of their depth really fast. [laughs] Which, by the way, they will be. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] You're absolutely right, but I think it's the internal getting yourself comfortable with being uncomfortable and being comfortable with being ignorant, and ignorant truly meaning just not knowing, and seeking to learn, right? Like, MLK Jr. talked about this. Like, he was quoted saying something like, "White people, as part of their superiority, think that they have so very little to learn when it comes to--" Like, just race, matters of race, and I think that can be extended and expanded, right? That if you're a part of a majority, a part of a privileged class, it's easy for you to think that you just--you don't need to learn, but being curious, right, and seeking to understand is, like, one of the greatest signs of humility, and really it's endearing. Like, the right people, in my experience--when I come to people and I say, "Hey, I really just want to understand. I want to learn from you. I genuinely want to learn." Those discussions go well, because they--Jennifer: They do.Zach: Right? They go well, because you're humbling yourself to listen and to receive. You talked about the statistics, about 1 in 5 today, [and] I think that really leads me well into the next question. So a good deal of your book discusses the future of work and the role inclusion will play. What are your predictions on how organizations will need to adapt to attract future diverse talent in the next 10 years?Jennifer: Oh, my gosh. Well, they're all, like, woefully behind already and have been. [laughs] It's like the ostrich with its head in the sand. I think, you know, when business is good and the economy is good, it covers--it's like high tide, you know? It covers up a lot of things that low tide reveals. And I think a lot of people are too comfortable. You know, I just think that business leaders in particular--and to your point that you just made, right? If life is working out for me, like economically I'm comfortable, I'm not afraid of, you know, being pulled over, you know, as I'm driving. I'm not afraid for my child in the world. You know, all of those things that are blind spots for some people. You can kind of sail on through life and through your work in being a leader, believe it or not, and not really be held accountable for a lot of these things. People deny that it's an urgent situation, but I see it as a really urgent situation, that the fact that, you know, the number of women and people of color at certain levels in companies--which I'm kind of obsessed with the mid-level, because the mid-level is where people--they're really tired of hanging on, like, white-knuckling it up the pipeline, trying to, you know, get supported, get promoted, get--you know, have somebody take an interest in them, have somebody run interference for them. You know, when you're undermentored and undersupported, and then you're underrepresented as well, and you look around, and you look up, and you don't see anyone that--you know, we say "you've got to see it to be it." You know, you get tired, and it's no wonder to me that the numbers and the representation of anyone who's not a straight white male have been kind of really flatlined, you know? And even the best and most progressive companies are really struggling to hold onto people, to raise them up to the level where I want to see them, right? Which is the executive level, because then they can make all--a whole world of difference, you know? An executive leader can, with one signature, you know, create a policy or address the pay gap, you know? They have so much power. Or hold a customer accountable, or take a stance on a political issue in social media. And so if people can't make up there, and we decide to bail out because it just proves too arduous and we're just, like, physically tired, and we're emotionally tired, and the compassion and fatigue and the emotional labor and all of it, being the spokesperson for an entire community. It becomes too much, and, you know, then we leave and we create our own businesses, which is a great solution, which was, you know, the thing I did. [both laugh] You know, 'cause I was like, "This is not gonna work for me." But that's a loss, because not everybody is set up to be an entrepreneur. You know, you need a lot of capital. You need--we talked about privilege. You know, you need certain things in place in order to make that work, and it's just not tenable for most people. So workplaces have to work for people, for all of us. So the future of work, you know, I get asked a lot about quotas and targets. I personally--I hesitate to say this, like, super publicly because companies are really twitchy about requirements and quotas, and you get a lot of pushback, but I'm honestly--I'm at a point where I feel like if people are left to their own devices change doesn't happen, and if change does happen it's slow and it's not widespread, and it's too slow to make a meaningful difference in the short amount of time we have to really see change.Zach: Absolutely.Jennifer: I mean, I think the house is on fire. [laughs] You know, I think economically people are falling behind. They're not getting promoted. They're therefore missing out on economic growth and opportunity and wealth, and, you know, I'm just not seeing it, when the world is changing so fast and companies are not keeping up with it. And so is the bottom line impacted? Is ROI measured? You know, we really--we have to have, like, an honest conversation about losing customers and clients and people leaving the organization, and companies have to wake up and say, you know, "If we don't do something really serious about this, we're gonna be sitting in the same exact place in 10 years." So, you know, I'm all for the more radical solutions. You know, I think--honestly, I think slates, interview slates, need to have a required number of women on them and a required number of people with diverse ethnicities. LGBTQ is tough because we don't disclose. So the companies I work with struggle with something called self-identification. We don't trust our companies--and this just speaks volumes--we don't trust our companies enough to check a box about who we really are, so we can't be counted. [laughs] So we--so, you know, there has to be, like, faith that we exist in organizations upwards of maybe 10% of the population, because we're only--on paper, we're only recorded at, like, 1%.Zach: Yeah, and that's just not accurate, right?Jennifer: No, it's not accurate, but we're doing that because we're terrified, you know? We're terrified of losing our job. We're just--even in the best companies. And that's true for people with disabilities too, but I think [some] companies have to [?], and I think they're gonna get pushed back. If they roll things out like this, they're gonna get a lot of pushback. People are gonna say, "I don't want to be forced to--" You know, "I believe in a meritocracy, and I want to hire the best person for the job, and you can't force me to hire a candidate that's less than," and my answer to that is if you did a good job of having enough of a pipeline of all kinds of talent, it wouldn't just be one candidate you're looking at and you're feeling like somebody, you know, is forcing you, holding your feet to the fire to hire them. You would have lots of choices. And so we've got to do a better job of filling that pipeline, keeping people in the pipeline, not letting them leave, and investing in them so that they feel they can thrive at a company long-term instead of wanting to bail out because they can't stand it out anymore, you know? That's just a sad commentary on workplace culture, but unfortunately I think it's the experience of tons of people that I talk to.Zach: The thing about it is the challenge with it is like--your earlier point around change, like, not--you know, that if left to its own devices will happen so incrementally, so small, that it won't be--it won't have--Jennifer: So slowly. It won't be meaningful. It won't even be big enough, yeah.Zach: And I think when you look at American history and you look at the history of civil rights in this country, it's really--I don't know if we have, like, a tangible example of truly radical sustained change from a culture perspective in this country. I think when you look across--especially when you look at, like, this current presidency, it's actually forced a lot of people to really, like, look at the history of race relations in America, especially if you want to examine, like, the past 55, 60 years, and you look at--and if you look at, like, the economic positioning of blacks today versus blacks in 1967, you know, you don't see the needle moving much at all. In fact, in a lot of areas you see the needle moving down. So it's interesting, so I 100% agree with you that there needs to be some genuinely radical--I'm gonna use the word again, radical--change in thought in terms of just what it's gonna look like, because--and we talked about this in another interview too. We talked about the future of work and we talked about the future of learning and education. You know, as the economy shifts and changes and more and more folks are not going to school, because school is going to continue to get more expensive and--like, all of that, it's gonna create a completely new environment that I don't know if we're really taking the time to really examine and consider. Jennifer: I know. We're still having the conversation with managers to say, "Hey, don't hire from the school you went to. That's bias." Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: You know, literally that's where we are. But you're talking about, like, the 3.0, which is literally that people are not gonna have these traditional college degrees or any degree. They'll go to trade school or whatever it is. Like, they're gonna have completely non-traditional backgrounds. They will have been, you know, previously incarcerated. They will be, you know, of different statuses, and we have to figure out--like, workplaces need all the talent they can get, and yet they're completely behind in terms of how they seek that talent, where they look. People, like, throw their hands up so too easily, you know? They just say, "Oh, we just couldn't find anyone." [laughs] You know, it's just, like, endless, the stories I hear. And I don't know. It's laziness. It's--I don't even know. I mean, it depends on the day, like, how cynical I am about it all, but I don't know. [laughs] I just am like, "Really?" Like, if you really wanted to find people, they're there, and I--believe me, 'cause I'm on Twitter, and, like, Black Twitter is on fire. Like, you know, the number of angel investment groups, the number of VCs, the number of start-ups, the number of black girls who code. Like, there's such a great community to recruit from, and I just--I wonder, like, what is it--what is it that people aren't doing or won't do? Like, what is the hold up?Zach: Oh, no, 100%. You know what, Jennifer? I'ma say this. Hold on. You know what? You're a real one. I appreciate you. That's a really good call-out, 'cause you're absolutely right. Like, Black Twitter is poppin,', and, like, there's so much--there are so many pools, right, of talent for you to engage in. There's Black Code Collective, like, in D.C. Like, there's all types of stuff. Like, there are people--and, like, to your point around, like, how people are learning today, there are people who went to culinary school and then, like, are now learning how to code, and, like, they're good at it, right? There are communities now that will welcome you in for free. You will--you can learn, and you can genuinely understand and learn how to code. And so there's plenty of opportunity to deepen your pipeline, so yeah, that's a really good point. There are things that people either aren't doing or are choosing not to do, but the talent is definitely out there. You know, you talked about cynicism. I think that really leads to my next question. Like, can we take a step back and just talk about, like, D&I, or I&D, as an industry, right? Jennifer: Oh. [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Jennifer: Speaking of cynicism, I think I know where you're going with this. I'm ready to go there with you too, so I think I know. [both laugh]Zach: So there's a growing sentiment, right, that the largest voices who are advocating for diversity and inclusion in highly-visible or corporate/corporatized spaces are themselves members of the majority and, by relation, have some inherent blind spots within the subject matter that they espouse expertise in. Do you find any merit to that concern? And, like, what have you done to challenge your own blind spots? You spoke to this a little bit earlier, but I'd love for you to expound on that and if you have any other advice you would give to others.Jennifer: Hm, that is such an interesting observation. It's funny, because I could make the counter-argument that I think we're in a time--like, you ask any white diversity leader right now, and their credibility is questioned on a daily basis to be in the role they're in. Like, that is the truth. In fact, they get, like, threats.Zach: Really?Jennifer: Yeah. I've seen some people get some serious heat just for having the audacity of even having the position or accepting the position.Zach: Oh, wow.Jennifer: Yeah. So there's many stories, right, on all sides of this issue, and like I said, I think--I don't know if I said it earlier, but when you're a marginalized community, it also doesn't mean that you're a great leader on inclusion necessarily. Zach: That's true, yeah.Jennifer: Because I've seen plenty of--you know, like, we were talking about white gay men at Stonewall who were--you know, can be, like, very misogynistic, very racist, very--and so, you know, that can carry forward into a diversity leader role, but that doesn't mean that all of them are totally, you know, not effective practitioners, and it also doesn't mean because you're a person of color that you're an effective practitioner, right?Zach: That's right.Jennifer: So to me--and you respect this--it's a skill set, you know? It is a skill set, but it is also your identity, right? And it's how you deal with your identity in the world, and it's how you integrate those two things that makes you an effective voice. But also you've got to be an incredibly savvy change agent to have these roles. I mean, they're very difficult roles. They're some of the most complex roles that exist, I think, in business, because it's part influencing, it's part executive, you know, believability, credibility. It's passion. It's change agility. It is storytelling, right, and being, like--but incredibly data-oriented and, you know, convincing, and knowing the business so that you can make the business case, right? So you need to know the business you're in in order to make the argument for D&I, and you've got to be able to do all of those things. And by the way, you're probably part of a marginalized community, and you're dealing with all of the biases personally, like, that you're getting, at the same time as you're leading an entire institution, like, through this morass, you know? Through these really difficult, tense, and, you know, complex times. So it's really, like, one of the toughest roles, and I have so much respect--I worry about our practicioner community, both on the consulting side but really our internal--my internal clients, 'cause they're just--they're holding up, you know, this planet, you know, these giant organizations. Anyway, but to answer your question [of] "Who's allowed and who has permission to do this work?" It's a very good question. I mean, I've even questioned--you know, 'cause somebody hasn't dug into who I am and has judged me just based on what I look like, and that's okay. I mean, I would say, you know, it hurts me, but whatever. Like, that doesn't matter. It's most important, I think, for us not to judge each other, I think for us to look at the skill set objectively, but I do think the optics of people in these roles are important. You have to be, like, a really amazing, humble leader. Like, you have to be--you have to be really deep in the work, I think, to take on that role as a majority identity. If you're a--say you're a white guy. I don't know a lot of white straight guys in these roles. I do know white gay guys, and they--every day their privilege is pointed out to them. Every day. Nobody lets them forget, you know, that they are--that they have an enormous responsibility in that role and that, like, they have a lot of work to do. And if you talk to any of them--and I know some of my clients are of that identity, and it's a tough lift for them. I know some straight white women, and again, they are pretty enlightened people, and they're very humble, and they're very, like--they've been studying this for a long time. Some of them have sort of really personal relationships. I know a lot of gay white women actually in these roles, and they--and sometimes I know gay women of color in these roles, and they're amazing. I mean, amazing amazing. Like, and the intersectionality they can bring to it is deep, and I find--not to say, you know, certain combinations of identities are, like, more important, but to be able to speak to so many different identities in your workforce in a direct way, you know, there's kind of--that's a wonderful shortcut, to be able to do that and on top of that be, like, somebody who's, like, been in HR for 20 years, you know, and is super savvy about playing the politics and all of the other things you need for the role, but I would like to think that we can all--we all have a role to play, and some companies are more embracing of--I will tell you some inside baseball. Sometimes I get asked to send, you know, a white man to a consulting engagement, and--that is true, you know, and talk to anyone in the work that I do, and they'll tell you that's [?]. And we will push back. We will say, you know, "We're not sure that's the right answer," and "Let's talk about it," and, you know, sometimes strangely it is the right answer for certain groups who have been really, really recalcitrant and resistant, and the messenger matters sometimes more than the message. Like, certain people can be heard in certain ways, and we know this is true. So we--that's why we have such tremendous diversity on our consulting team, because we just--we have to get creative sometimes and make sure that we build a pairing, for example, that's gonna be in front of a room that maybe the client is really, really struggling to be heard in front of this business unit or this team or this, you know, office in a certain region in the country, and we'll need to switch it out. You know, we'll need to put a different voice in front of people to see, you know, and sadly the messenger is something that needs to be considered. And I wouldn't let it rest, and I wouldn't not challenge it, but I do think we--we've got to use every change tool in our arsenal, particularly with those who are really resistant and really stuck and I think experiencing a lot of bias per the messenger that they're hearing the message from. And it's funny. You know, I have to be really careful. I can't be the angry--I have to be careful to not be the angry woman and the angry gay person, and I can't imagine what it would be like delivering that truthful message that I do and also being a person of color, right? I'm very aware that I have a lot more latitude for my quote-unquote passion to come through, right, and to be--and not to have it seen as being threatening, you know? Zach: Absolutely. And, you know, your point around, like, changing up the messenger and mixing it up, it's really interesting because in the work that I have done, I have a similar strategy--and it's interesting, because I do that without even being asked. Like, I'll just be like, "Look, I know that for this I just need to have a really approachable white face to deliver this message," and they're partners for me in that. And honestly, Jennifer, I do that even just at work. Like, if I have a big meeting--Jennifer: Of course. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] If I have a big meeting or, like, you know, there's just something going on and it's like, "Okay, I really want to share this thing, but I know that if I say it, then it's gonna get an eye roll or it's not gonna be heard, so let me go ahead and mobilize this white woman or this white guy."Jennifer: Your allies.Zach: Yes, and then I'll have them say it, or I will let them know that I'm about to say it. Jennifer: I wish that weren't true.Zach: Say that again?Jennifer: I just wish it weren't true, like, that you have to do that, and to me that's, like, the extra tax that we pay. You know, that's extra labor. You have to literally not only have the brilliant idea, but you have to, like, strategize about who is, like, sitting next to you or, you know, backing you up when you have a brilliant idea, or who's gonna echo your--you know, women deal with this, and we all know this is, like, a fact of life. But I appreciate what you're bringing up, that it's a universal experience for so many of us, and it's just--if we look at it on the bright side--let's, like, look at it as a glass half-full, which I always do. [laughs] You know, I think this all makes us really savvy, like, very emotionally intelligent, right? Because as limited as our audience might be in terms of seeing us, doesn't this make us--it sort of sharpens our saw. I mean, I think when you have to think about "How am I gonna get this group over the finish line?" Like, how am I going to get them to listen to me, to believe in what I say and to give me the credibility when I'm walking in the room and I know what they're thinking about me?" You know, "How am I gonna do that?" And to me it's, like, a--you know, it's a brain twister, but it makes you be very creative. And by the way, I hope in enlisting those allies that they know why they're being enlisted and that it really raises their awareness [of] the permutations that so many of us go through in the workplace to be heard. You know, that's--I hope that they're noticing that. Like, that's a really important learning, to be approached by someone--to say, "Hey, would you have my [back?] in this meeting? I'm gonna bring this up," and, you know, to me that is, like, such a sad commentary, and at the same time it's such a demonstration of how far we have to go for people to be heard and the space that we have to learn to hold for each other. Like, we've got to do that--you know what? We need to do that without being asked. That's where I really want to get, right? So that if I'm in this meeting and I hear you bring up this brilliant idea, you don't even need to ask me to have your back. Like, I am gonna instinctively know if you're talked over or if somebody steals your idea or somebody poo-poos it that I'm gonna intervene, and I'm gonna know what's going on, and that to me, that would be sort of nirvana in the workplace, that those pre-conversations, that pre-planning that you just described doesn't even need to happen because everyone knows it's an issue and everyone's on guard for it. Like, can you imagine? Like, if we were all like, "Oh, no, no." You know, "She is not gonna be talked over," or "His idea is not going to be dismissed," you know? "And I'm gonna quote it, and I'm gonna bring the attention back to him and, you know, his idea." It's like the women in the Obama cabinet. I love that story, where they literally decided, like, that this was not gonna happen anymore, and they all banded together and made the plan.Zach: Yes, I loved that.Jennifer: And then they went into--I know. And then they went into the meeting, and they all, like, echoed each other's ideas and mentioned each other by name and made eye contact with other women in the room. So they sort of redirected everybody's attention. I'm still--believe it or not, if I go into a meeting with my male colleague, they will talk to him. Like, it still happens to me. Oh, yeah. And I'm a CEO, and he works for me, you know? [both laugh] So yeah, it's still a thing. And he's really good, because he'll, like, redirect back to me. Zach: "Um, actually, Ms. Brown, what do you think?" [laughs]Jennifer: Yes. Well, he'll say, "Well, as Jennifer always says," right? "As somebody who is an acknowledged expert." I love that. [laughs] But yeah, we need to do that [?], and that would be nirvana. So I really talk about that a lot in my book. Like, the emotional labor of having to ask for help, I really, really wish more of us would know that help is needed. Like, we would know the data. We would know the research. You know, for God's sake, like, read the McKenzie report on women that they do every year. Zach: Oh, it's so good.Jennifer: Yeah, it's so good, and you'll realize that women of color have different headwinds than white women. Just that, you know? And if you go into meetings and you see this dynamic and you have any level of privilege, any level of positional power where you're listened to in a different way, you need to activate that so that you change those numbers and those outcomes. Like, you must do that. And it's such a small thing. This takes two seconds. Like, that's the thing when people are like, "Ugh, inclusion takes so much time, and I'm so busy, and I don't know how--it competes with the business priorities, and I have a long list, and, like, I'm already strapped for time." All of that--I don't think this takes a lot of time. It just takes a moment of attention to [bias?] your own others, a quick conversation to check in with somebody, a request for feedback, a "Hey, you know, I wanted to follow up with you after that meeting." Like, "I really thought your idea was great. I want to support you. How can do I do more of that?" That, like, takes two seconds to say, and like you said earlier, it's so welcome. Like, I think that's the--people are like, "I don't know how to start that conversation." [laughs] It's like, "Most of these conversations are, like, a gift to so many people who are never asked these questions to begin with," right? So please approach me. Ask me how can you support me more differently. What could you say in a meeting? What could you say after a meeting to someone when I'm not around? You know, I think that's the other piece, right? Like, give feedback to people that look like you. Like, I always say, you know, "Men listen to other men in a very different way." And so, you know, if you've got the privilege of being listened to. You know, the messenger, not just the message, and you can take the burden off of my shoulders to have a hard conversation with somebody, to say, "Hey, that joke made me uncomfortable." Like, that's a very risky move for me to do, 'cause I--you know, that is drawing attention to my difference. I have no idea how that person is going to react. And so I really--as a woman, I really appreciate men who proactively are like, "What can I do to--" Really it's kind of protect you in a way, and it's not protect in a sort of damsel-in-distress kind of way. It is literally--like, it could be protecting an idea. It could be making sure you don't fall victim to politics in the office. It could be that I represent you when you're not in the room and I talk about how brilliant you are, you know? It's that kind of thing, because otherwise we're sort of hanging out in the wind. And one of the things I always say is diverse talent is undermentored and very undersponsored, which means that we're not--we literally aren't looked after, like, informally. We are not--like, somebody's not like, "Well, let me have that career conversation with her to make sure that she's up for that role, so that she has P&L experience, so that she's then positioned so she can get that promotion," because there's all of these, like, unspoken and unwritten rules that we're not privy to when you're not in the power structure. So I often task people I speak to, like, "Look at the people you mentor. Look at the people you sponsor. Do they look like you?" You know, if they do, and you are a certain demographic, like, you must remedy that. Like, you've got to be mentoring across difference, sponsoring across difference, and--by the way, it should be reverse mentoring as well. It should be mutual so that you're learning--to your point earlier, like, how are you getting your learning about cultural differences? It's in the context of these really, really important one-on-one relationships. So wherever you can power share, wherever you can be influenced or learn somebody's experience, as a senior executive, your biggest risk is that you're isolated from all of this, and therefore you're not an effective leader. You're not positioning yourself for the future. You're harming your company, because you're setting this vision every day, but you--there's so much you don't know. So, you know, I think that's a good wake-up call for people usually. And if that doesn't work, [laughs] I don't know. I give up.Zach: [laughs] I don't know.Jennifer: I'm like, "I've given you now two books to read." You know, 63 podcast episodes. You know? Come on. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] "What more do you want more from me?"Jennifer: What more do you need? It's writing on the wall. Wake up, you know? Get with--get on the train, you know, and be willing to make mistakes as we were talking about earlier, and, you know, even know how to do a good apology, 'cause, you know, I think there is a real art to a real apology. I think you said earlier [that] there's nothing worse than somebody who, like, says all the right things but, like, in this really authentic kind of faux, polished way.Zach: Yes. You know what? We're gonna have to have you back just to talk about the topic of apologizing [?]. Like, for real.Jennifer: Yeah, right? I love that apology. I mean, I love that topic. Sorry.Zach: No, no, you're good.Jennifer: But a good apology can make up for everything, and it's almost like a required skill set, particularly for those in the majority, because things are gonna happen. Like, you're gonna mess it up. You are. And so being comfortable with uncomfortable, comfortable with hard feedback, and, to me, not slinking away into the corner but saying, "Thank you so much for that, and I'm gonna try it again, and I'm gonna do it differently." Like, wouldn't that resilience be really neat to hear and see in our leaders?Zach: It would. It would be great, and I think--you know, believe it or not I'm actually a little bit encouraged coming out of this conversation. This has been really good.Jennifer: [laughs] Really?Zach: Yeah, I am.Jennifer: Oh, that's good, 'cause we talked about some cynical stuff. [laughs]Zach: We did, we did, but it was real though.Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's such a mixed bag, but like you said earlier, like, we're living in really interesting times of awakening, and you're right--like, I think ever since the 2016 election I would say is when so many people and so many companies were like, "Oh, my goodness," you know? MLK Jr., "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." One of my favorite quotes, but guess what? We have to bend the arc. Like, the arc, it ain't gonna bend itself.Zach: Right? It don't just bend by itself. Right. [laughs]Jennifer: Like, that's the thing. So to me we've got to take that and bend it, and I think what we've realized is it's not this destiny, you know? Things aren't gonna happen without--and they aren't gonna happen because of good intentions. They're not gonna happen because we have maybe progressive values. They're not gonna happen because "Oh, I'm a male leader and I have daughters, so therefore, like, I am an expert on gender equality." No. Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: No. Like, you have to do something, and you have to do something publicly, consistently, constantly. I used an example in a book of Marc Benioff, who is the CEO of Salesforce, who discovered he had a huge pay gap and literally wrote a check for $3 million, like, right away and was like, "I'm gonna gross up pay for people, because I'm not gonna let this stand another day, then we're gonna do the harder work," right? Which is rooting out, like, why did this happen in the first place. And then as he's done this--he does it every year now--they've discovered, by the way, pay gap--not just gender but ethnicity pay gaps. Not surprising.Zach: Right.Jennifer: And then they've acquired so many 10s of companies that also had pay gaps as Salesforce acquired them, and they had to do a new audit, you know, and to look at their pay gaps and, you know, gross it up. So, you know, literally there are people that are--that are just being relentless on this, because under their watch they're not gonna let this persist. And so I do see a lot of courage amongst leaders, and that leaves me really hopeful. I wish I saw it more, and I wish I saw it more publicly. I think there's a lot of really interesting conversations going on with privately with lawyers and, you know, the board and, you know, sometimes I'm privy to those, and I'm really, really heartened by the interest I see in the C-Suite. I have to say, people are getting it, and I think their question now is "How do we change it?" And that's a much harder question to answer when you're dealing with a giant organization that does business all over the world and has to contend with laws in various parts of the world, and, you know, it's hard to know where to start, and I think that's where people are at, that they want to start, and that's a relief to me. I mean, it makes my job easier because I'm not fighting the "Why is this important?" battle all of the time.

Zach speaks with Tamara Fields, the Austin Office Managing Director at Accenture. She details her career journey to this point and offers her perspective on how organizations can make conversations and examinations around gender more intersectional and inclusive.Connect with Tamara on LinkedIn and Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com.Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, I've got some good news, I've got some great news, then I've got some sad news, okay? So if you didn't know, Living Corporate has been partnering with Accenture to present to y'all a leadership series, okay? These are the most experienced North American black and brown managing directors, okay? This is what I'm saying. If you look at North America for Accenture, and you were to say "Hm, where are all the executive leaders who are black and brown and, like, who is the most senior in that group, and what are their stories?" Living Corporate would be able to say, "Oh, you mean these people right here? We got 'em." So that's the good news. That's the great news. The sad news is this is the last entry for now of this leadership series, okay? And my hope is that you--first of all of course you listen to this one, but [that] you'll listen to all of them, because we've been honored to have some amazing guests, and our last guest is no less amazing - Tamara Fields. Tamara Fields is the Austin Office Managing Director at Accenture, where she is responsible for bringing innovation to clients, recruiting and retaining top talent, and strengthening Accenture’s relationship with the community. She has over 20 years of experience in the health and public service sector, driving creative, strategic, and transformative solutions for federal and state government clients via multilateral project management, contract management and HR and financial transformation. My goodness, gracious. Sound Man, give me the Flex bomb. Just give it to me right here. [Flex bomb gets dropped] My goodness, gracious. An advocate for inclusion and diversity, Tamara serves as the U.S. co-lead for Accenture’s women’s employee resource group and the inclusion and diversity lead for the Accenture office in Austin. Tamara also serves as a coach and mentor in and outside of Accenture, helping people find their voice and preparing them for career advancement. She speaks at conferences and summits, like Culturati and Texas Conference for Women, and was recognized with the 2018 Central Texas DiversityFIRST award for her commitment to I&D. She is Accenture’s executive recruiting sponsor for her alma mater, the University of Texas, and sits on the Red McCombs School of Business Advisory Council as well as the boards for the Texas Conference for Women and Paul Quinn College, a historically black college in Dallas. So shout-out to our historically black colleges in Dallas. So I'ma go ahead and put the air horns right here [they drop], and I'ma give you that Cardi B "ow" right here as well [Cardi B “ow”], because shout-out to y'all. Love y'all. Now, look, with that being said, the next thing you're gonna be hearing is the interview that I had with Tamara Fields.[pause]Zach: Tamara, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Tamara: I'm doing great. Thanks very much. I appreciate being on.Zach: Oh, yeah. No, no problem. Look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Tamara: Of course. I'm just a Texas girl. Born and raised in Austin, Texas, which I feel like [?] is a unicorn--[both laugh]--with how Austin has grown, but yeah, I'm from Austin, Texas, and I currently work for Accenture. I am our Austin office managing director, so I'm responsible for our Austin office, and I'm also a key executive and managing director in our health and public service practice. So that means I spend quite a lot of work working with non-profits and higher education and with states. I went to the University of Texas at Austin, so I am a Longhorn - to all those proud Longhorns out there. And I think that's probably my quick summary on myself.Zach: Well, you know I gotta go ahead and give you some air horns for all of that, 'cause that's an amazing profile. [I drop 'em]Tamara: Ooh, I like the air horns. Can we have more?Zach: Oh, yeah.Tamara: [?]Zach: Oh, I got way more sound effects. I was trying to say--'cause this is what I'm trying to do. So as a side-note, Tamara--so, you know, Living Corporate has been around for a little over a year, and we add sound effects on the backend, but what I'm trying to do--we've got a soundboard now, so I'm over here trying to, you know, mix it up, add a little pizzazz. I was telling Rah that the last interview [that I was], you know, just trying a few different things out. So, you know, you may hear a few different things as they are appropriate in this conversation, okay?Tamara: Well, appropriate is always very important, so I appreciate that.Zach: Timing is everything.Tamara: And I will not be alarmed by your sounds, all right? Because I believe in disruptive innovation, so let's see what we can do.Zach: Oh, look at you. Look at you flexing. I see you now. Okay, all right. All right, now I'm activated. I appreciate that. [both laugh] So you've been with Accenture for over 20 years. Two sets of 10. Two.Tamara: Yeah. Are you trying to make me feel old? What exactly--[laughs] Yes, yes. Two sets of 10. Thank you, Zach. [both laugh]Zach: No. Well, the reason I bring it up--not to make you feel old. Can we talk a little bit about your journey and what it's looked like for you not just to survive but thrive in consulting, right? Because I've seen--in my experience in consulting and outside of consulting, black professionals--black and brown professionals, a lot of times they will get right up to either that manager or senior manager level and just kind of stay there for a while, and so it's rare--that I've seen, in my experience--many of us break into, like, the true executive-level leadership, and so--you know, it just seems like such a hyper-political space. I'd love just to hear about what your path has been.Tamara: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's very interesting. I mean, I think one of the very first reasons why I came to work for Accenture, which at the time was interested in consulting when I graduated, was because I saw people who looked like me. It's really that simple. I initially had a marketing background, so I wasn't even in the technology space at all, or the consulting space. I wasn't focused on that. And one of my friends signed me up, and I went to an interview, and as I was going through the interview process, I started to run into individuals and greeters that they had there, and a couple of people who were friends of mine, who had graduated a couple of years before, were like, "Come on, Tamara. Come try this out." So I did, and it's been interesting to me, because I think that that aspect is what's really helped my career. I think that consulting can be intimidating. There's a lot of work associated with it. You're always having to spend time to stay up on trends and skills and capabilities and technology, and you're always in learning mode at the same time as you're guiding your clients, but what I found most intriguing about it is the fact that it's not a product, it's about people, and it's a team-based activity, and I think, for me, that was important, because I like connection with people. And so I think what's really helped me navigate my career, to be honest with you, has been relationships, right? It's a diverse world, and I think you have a lot of opportunity to own your path and own your career, but you have to do that with having the right people with the right opportunities with your right skill set, and those three things have to match up, and early in my career I didn't really understand that. I thought if you just worked hard, surely you're gonna get patted on the back and get promoted. [laughs] So very quickly you realize that's not the case, and so I really had to learn a couple of key points that I'll share. One is advocacy. It is important, right? And understanding your contribution and what you bring to the table and being able to articulate that, not in a boastful way, but in a way that helps everybody understand the work that you're performing and how you're contributing. That's important, and that was [anti?] to my culture and my world, right? I was raised in a very--in a background that believed in servant leadership. You know, if you do a good job, that's good enough, right? And so it was really hard for me to advocate and really to tell my story and be able to represent my story. And the second thing that was important is you need relationships at all levels - those that work for you and above you, and understanding the ecosystem that you work in, the organization structure that you work in and understanding the key players in that are important, and you need to take the time to understand where you work, how you work, who you're working with. You need to understand how they contribute and leverage that network, and I know people utilize "network" very freely, but it's exceptionally important. Like, you have to have sponsors or a key sponsor, and that sponsor is only a sponsor if they are well-positioned in the company to be able to advocate on your behalf. So that goes back to that first statement of advocacy, and so I had to learn how to navigate that, and I had to learn how to navigate that with individuals who didn't look like me, right? Because when I first came into the company there were a lot of African-American females, and even now, right, that's something that we're committed to, and I'm really thankful to work for a company that's committed to inclusion and diversity, but overall in the technology space, the percentages of African-Americans or Hispanics or women, right, that's still a number that has to grow, right? And so the reality of that means I have to have mentors and sponsors who may not be my makeup, but they're still committed to my success, and I had to learn how to get past my own unconscious bias to reach out and to leverage them and leverage those relationships in telling my story to navigate my career to success. And that was hard for me on multiple levels, one because we all suffer from impostor syndrome at some time. We all doubt ourselves. I wasn't used to talking about myself in that way. Learning how to establish relationships differently, at different levels and in different ways, and so I really had to embrace that in order for me to see, you know, my career path grow.Zach: Wow. So look, you know, it's been a theme, right? I've been talking to y'all, and when I say y'all I'm talking about y'all Accenture MDs. And so I keep on dropping this Flex bomb, but I gotta do it again. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? 'Cause golly. You're dropping real stuff. But, you know, jokes aside, it all boils down to vulnerability, and that's hard, right?Tamara: So hard. [both laugh]Zach: It's hard to practice vulnerability with folks that look like you, let alone folks that don't look like you, especially if you've been burned a couple times by some of those folks who don't look like you. Then it's like, "Well, dang, okay. Not only are my feelings kind of hurt, I also need to figure out a way to preserve myself. So what does it look like for me to just exist here," you know what I mean? So I definitely understand, 100% agree, with every point you made, and I just--[coin sfx]--you know, I just want to--I really do appreciate you sharing those points, because it is true that a lot of times, like, we--I'll speak for myself, 'cause your point around servant leadership resonated with me. That's definitely, like, my background as well. It's, like, the whole just "Okay, look, lead with humility. Look out for those before you look out for yourself," and that framework, while I'm not saying it isn't--I still believe in it, but it creates challenges in spaces where everyone is so very much so looking out for themselves. So what does it look like to practice servant leadership, but at the same time tactfully, professionally, honestly advocate for yourself? Like, those are--that's a hard balance to find, you know what I mean?Tamara: It is, and I think what we think is sometimes they have to be mutually exclusive, and that's not the case, right? What I had to learn was--and I was actually coached on this. And this was hard, right? I was very used to always saying "we did this," and "we did this," and "we did that." What they really want to understand [is] "What did you do, Tamara, as part of this collective," you know, success or project that you're talking about. Because they understand that you didn't deliver the project by yourself. [both laugh] [?] leadership, right? What they're trying to understand is what piece of the pie did you have, and how did you influence that? What ingredients did you add into that pay to help that pie taste wonderful, right? And so I had to learn how to use the word "I," which was hard, and at the same time use the word "team." So I would have to say things like, you know, "I directed the team to do this, and this is how the team executed this." You know, "We set up this collaboration method or this design session," you know, and "I facilitated that, and the team came up with some really innovative ideas. I helped the team work through how to deliver that." You know, "I delivered these pieces of the effort, and I honed this client relationship, and I helped the client interact with these team members in this way." But it was really about making sure that we clarified how I personally contribute, and then at the same time also talk to the team objective. So you can do both, and I don't--and I think that's where people miss, right? It's not to negate what the team does, but that team is working for you. [coin sfx] They're helping you be high-performing. Absolutely give them credit for that, and you need to definitely talk about that, but you're a part of that team. You're directing that team. You're providing leadership to that team. Those aspects of what you're doing shouldn't be ignored, and you can share that and still share in that team's success, because your success is the team's success and vice versa. And so recognizing that fact I think was key in my ability to start understanding how to speak to how I contributed and how the team contributed and how we did it together.Zach: Amen. Come on, now. You know what? And something else can we talk about for a second is--'cause you talked about using the word "I" and, like, what it is you did. Can we talk a little bit about--in terms of looking to progress and thrive in these corporate spaces as a leader, as a person of color, as a--let me be more specific, because sidenote--and we're gonna get to this later in the questions--Tamara, does it ever annoy you when people use, like, the term "person of color," like, as a catch-all as opposed to being more explicit and saying, like, "black and brown?" And it's okay if--I'm just curious.Tamara: That doesn't bother me so much. I just think that what--what probably bothers me even more than that is I think that people should not be afraid to use terms, right? I am an African-American, and if you're concerned about what to ask, then ask me what my preferred term is and I'll share it, right? Because I think it's important to put out. It's just in the same way that when people say "I don't see color." I don't understand what that means, right? Because the reality is I am a person of color. I am an African-American, I am a woman, and I don't want to ignore these facts. They bring uniqueness to my personality, being a female, being an African-American, being a Texan, being a UT grad. They're all just aspects and characteristics that I bring to the table that I think is unique, and that's what brings that innovation to the conversation. So you don't need to ignore it, and a lot of times, if I'm presenting at an I&D conference or any type of meeting, I will say that just right off the bat, because sometimes you just need to take out the concern, the tension, the fear around these conversation points. I think it goes back to being authentic. You know, early in my career, it was hard for me to fully embrace some of these topics courageously, right? And I had to come to my own place of "This is who I am at 100%," and I had to represent me, and if I'm going to be an authentic leader--and I really think when I made that shift is when I actually started to see a lot more success a lot faster in my career, because I fully embraced who I was. And that doesn't mean everybody has to like it, but they need to respect it and understand what I bring to the table. And so I thin kit's really about the fact that you need to know who you are, fully accept who you are, bring that fully all-in from an authentic point of view, and you're gonna have success when you do that.Zach: I love it. So I paused and asked you a side question before I got to my real question. So my real question is can we talk a little bit about, as a leader, why it's important to make sure you're doing the right kind of work, and I share that because for me--I'm a newer manager. I've been a manager, like, maybe two years or so. I think this will be my second year just being a manager. I was coming from another firm. Now I'm at a new firm as a manager, and coming into this new firm, I've been--I've got the feedback that, like, "Look, Zach, as a manager--as a leader, your job is not to quote-unquote get things done. Your job is to actually lead the team." And so I know for me, I think just the way that I--maybe just my background, how I've been coached, I've felt like there's always been a pressure to prove myself and show that I'm actually doing something, as opposed to what does it look like to actually facilitate the team and drive results through the team that I'm leading. Can you talk a little bit about, like, your journey in pivoting from being, like, a person who just got a lot of tasks done very well to really influencing and driving results for a group of people?Tamara: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I've had-- I think I've had two major what I would call crossroad points where that occurred, right? So just like you, when you, you know, made that point, from consultant to manager, you're--you know, and those are terms we utilize in my Accenture consulting world. It's that difference of you're part of the team and you're doing the work to you need to direct what the work and strategic vision needs to be, and you need to own that and direct the team and manage that, and manage the deadlines, the deliverables, et cetera. And I think really what that is about is understanding that you can't do all things and you need to prioritize your time and be effective, and it's hard for you to provide proper oversight to the team and manage the quality deliverables they're generating if you don't do that. What really helped me is, you know, we have various trainings, right? And we talk about what it really means--what are the expectations of a manager versus a team member, right? And I think that a lot of times we get these promotions, we don't always spend the time to understand what are the requirements and the new expectations for that new role. And so the first thing I would tell people is you need to just be straight up with your boss. "Help me understand what you expect." [laughs] "What do you expect me to do?" And when you start to write that down, then you've got to th ink about how you're gonna deliver that, and if you start to deliver that and you're at 80 hours a week, then you know somewhere there's a problem.Zach: You're absolutely right.Tamara: It's that practical at times, right? The other thing I would say is you--I believe in this mentorship concept and having people above you who can see how you're working and what you're doing, because sometimes we don't see, and you need to constantly be getting the 360 feedback, right? I believe in the 30/30, right? 30 days and 30 minutes, right? And you need to ask your leadership, right, "Am I operating at the level you expect? Where do you see those changes? What do you want me to do less of and more of," right? And you need to be asking those questions on a regular basis so that you're learning through that, and then you need to observe those above you, what they're doing, how they're doing it, and how they're working, right? It's a natural inflection point that when you switch to leadership you've got to delegate more. You've got to trust your team, and you've got to be able to balance when you dig in and when you don't, and you need to have the time available to dig in on the real issues and ignore the rest, and you can't do that if you're not at that right level of ownership, oversight, and digging in, right? But if you're always in the weeds you can never see--you know, if you're always in the trees you can never see the forest, right? And so you have to work on that strategic view. The second inflection point, which was really a bigger one for me, was really when I switched to becoming a managing director, and what was interesting about that was not so much about the work, because as a senior manager at Accenture, you're already managing pretty large teams and pretty large efforts, and they did a good job in giving us trainings. We even have special inclusion and diversity trainings for African-Americans and Hispanics. You know, we're very committed to that, and so, you know, I felt like I had plenty of exposure and understanding and coaching and development and leadership training, right? What I hadn't always understood is that [soft?] skill change that has to happen as you move up that ladder, right? [laughs] By nature I'm very direct, and, you know, how you have conversations at one level versus how you have to the conversation when you are truly in charge, leading an entire portfolio or a set of work or a set of people's shifts, and sometimes you do need to be more sensitive about how you share and communicate information and how you interact with individuals, because there's an expectation there of leadership that comes with that. And so, you know, when I first kind of made that transition, I was still somewhat operating in my previous, you know, method of operation. And I had a sponsor come set up a meeting with me, and I didn't know what--I thought we were gonna talk about this one thing and he was like, "Hey, Tamara, I've noticed something," and what was good about that is we already had the relationship. We already had the relationship, so he already knew he could setup the meeting. And because we had the relationship and because he was one of my sponsors, he just really wants me to be successful, and he knew--and because we had that established relationship, he knew he could have a direct conversation and say, "Hey, I don't think you handled this meeting correctly. You're now X. This is how I would expect you to handle the meeting. You need to think about that." And it was really hard, it was really impacting, but it was right, and so it really helped me to make that soft skill adjustment that I didn't even realize needed to happen. And when you have the right people in your world, and the right relationship with them, they're gonna help you be successful in that way.Zach: No, I love it. And it goes right back to what you were saying at the top, right, about relationships and trust and vulnerability, right? Like, if there wasn't a focus--if there wasn't that time spent in the beginning building those and practicing vulnerability and building those relationships, then you may not have had that conversation.Tamara: That's exactly right, and I think that hurts a lot of people because vulnerability is important, and you have to be willing to be humble. You have to be willing to be [?], to receive constructive feedback, and you have to have the kind of relationships where you are allowed and able to do that exchange. You know, I think that what people would say about me is honesty and authenticity matters to me 100%, and I tell them from the get-go, like, "I want to know. I can take it. I want to hear. Help me to understand, help me to grow, help me to be better," because the reality is I don't know all the answers. I don't know how to execute always and always in all positions, and I don't [?]. I need to still--you should always be in learning mode, and you should always recognize there's someone to learn from and something to learn about.Zach: Absolutely. So I think this is actually a really good transition point to my next question. You know, in your Essence Magazine feature--[Cardi B "ow" sfx]--you share a bit about how you've made it a part of your role to champion diversity.Tamara: Oh, yeah.Zach: Okay. So now, Tamara, so--you know, you don't know me, I don't really know you like that, but I'ma tell you - I'm a pretty gregarious person, and in a part of that gregariousness comes an ability to build relationships and have a lot of real talk sessions with black and brown senior leaders, right? So I've spoken to quite a few of them, and they're nervous about championing diversity because they don't want to be pegged as the "black person whisperer," or pigeon-holed in a space that is like, you know, away from business. So what are your thoughts on that, and how do you combat that perception?Tamara: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a fair concern, and I think you always have to [?] for the company you're in. You know, for myself--let me just tell you straight up that I am passionate about inclusion and diversity period, and it doesn't matter what everybody thinks about it or how they--you know, if there's gonna be a negative or positive perception. I think that you have to do what is right for you and what is your moral code, and I believe that I have that responsibility, right? I was the, you know, first African-American female to be an OMD, right? The first female to be an OMD in the Austin office, right? I was one of the first black females to be promoted in Texas even, into a managing director role. I absolutely have a responsibility to represent and push I&D so that other people can see me, and if I'm not out there, you know, present for them to see, then they may not believe that that's an opportunity in this company, and I want them to know that it is, right? Because if I can get there, so can you. And so I just feel like--I feel very passionate about that. I'm not blind to that concern, right? And so I think the difference for me is I am in the business, right? I'm still managing a large portion of our business. I have a responsibility for a large, you know, P&L revenue responsibility, profitability responsibility, and I feel like I can do that job and still manage my career success and be committed to inclusion and diversity. Now, I will say that it's easier for me because I work at a company that is committed to I&D period, right? We were the first company to publish our numbers out there in the market in our space, and that was a pretty big deal. So we believe in it. We have accountability around it. You know, I have a CEO for North America who is female who has made a commitment to, you know, gender parity across our industry groups, right? I work in an industry group where we've already hit gender parity, in health and public service within the U.S., and that's a big deal. So this is not something they shy away from. It's a part of our responsibilities as managing directors, right? We have accountability for it, and so I feel that. So I feel like I am in a position to champion something that's important to me and at the same time deliver on the business, but I think you've got to do both. In the same token, right, I have an I&D role in my public service entity group, because I want people to know that this is important to me and I feel I need to represent that conversation. Equally however, I have just as many conversations about the business, my skill areas, around my clients, around technology trends. So people know me for an expert in so many different ways that I'm not just I&D. That's never going to be the conversation for Tamara, because Tamara has put herself out there around innovation and back office and front office and public service and--do you know what I mean? So my thing is you need to have more than just that dialogue. You need to have multiple dialogues absolutely, but you can do that. Incidentally though, there was a role that was offered to me that I chose to not take that was a +1 role in I&D, because I said, "You know what? We need to give back to someone else, 'cause I'm going to be doing I&D no matter what," right? I'm going [?]--I used to be the [?] sponsor of special, you know, trainings and learnings. I'm gonna show up at the conferences I think I need to show up. I will do that. I will make the extra time in my schedule to do that 'cause I'm passionate about it. Let's make sure other people are going down that path. I wasn't interested in being an I&D practitioner, 'cause that's not that I believe my role was. I wanted to be a managing director in the business, and I did that. [laughs] And so now that I've done that, I see it as an opportunity to be a strong influencer about where we move in that space, how we move in that space, how we're successful in that space, and I can influence that on my teams and in every way and be courageous enough to have those conversations. And I believe we have to be courageous about what's important, because the reality is we don't have enough brown and black people, so to speak, in this space, in technology. I want to change that, right? And so, you know, that's a decision I made. I think you have to make personal decisions. But what I would challenge people is, you know, "Why would you want someone else's path to be harder or more difficult than your own path? You should want it to be better and easier."Zach: Right. No, you're absolutely right, and, you know, I love your point around the fact that having multiple specialties--you know, not that you're gonna be a jack of all trades and a master of nothing, but if you have a handful of things that you're very, very skilled at--because let's say if you are passionate about I&D, and then you also have these other specialties, well, then you can then weave I&D into your domain, because I&D is ultimately focused on making sure that everyone feels involved, included, and empowered, and whatever you're talking about, especially in the tech space, is gonna involve people. So it's--I&D really isn't, like, sequestered over to something on the side. If you have a specialty, some type of depth of knowledge in something else, it's easy to then infuse that with I&D.Tamara: That's correct. I think that's right, and I think that you can have a huge impact on this space by just getting to a place of leadership, right? You can have a huge impact on the conversations that are being had and making sure that, you know, the right decisions are being made and the right opportunities are being offered for all people. At the end of the day, what we believe in is inclusion, right? We have this "Inclusion Starts With I" video that I absolutely love, 'cause it's not just about gender and ethnicity. It's about so many different aspects. It's about everyone having a voice at the table, and I think that's what's most important.Zach: Absolutely, and that's, again, a really good segue. So last year you were featured on The Daily Texan, where you gave your perspective on gender equality. Now, taking a step back, what I often see is when we look at--we really do look at gender in, like, binary terms, right? We don't really consider race as an intersect between gender, and we don't often include trans identities in these discussions. What is your perspective on how organizations can make conversations and examinations around gender more intersectional and inclusive?Tamara: Oh, absolutely. So I'm a huge fan of employee resource groups. [laughs] So we have a--so it's interesting that you say that, right? So again, it's about your personal choice to get involved, but I'm the co-lead for our United States Women employee resource group for all of the United States, and it's an awesome opportunity, right? 'Cause it really gives me a landscape to do so many different, interesting things, and I have a full team underneath me as the executive sponsor. And it's so interesting that you bring this up, because this year we talked about "What are the topics out there that we want to have," right? And one of them was around this concept of intersectionality with various groups and topics that don't come up, and interestingly, like, we just scheduled a Women of Color Voices of Leadership call in July, right? And I'm gonna sit down with our North American inclusion and diversity lead, and we're gonna talk about some of the metrics that we see women of color in corporate America and what does that mean. What does that mean, and how do we address some of the gaps that we see in corporate America? What are the key concerns that are impacting them that might be different from other groups? And what can we do about it? How do we help everybody be successful? And so I think it's really about leveraging your employee resource groups to bring the conversation to the table, whether you're doing that through a national kind of Voices of Leadership call or whether you're doing that individually in your cities, 'cause we're fortunate in that we also have employee resource groups at every city location. And so we have them dial into the sessions. Sometimes they host their own sessions. We do leadership panels around these topics, and we've done them around all of these dimensions that you're talking about. And, you know, we have LGBTQ employee resource groups. We have men's. We have military. And people are really active in them, and they're very important. We do cross-pollination across our employee resource groups, with our African-American one and our Women one, because we think that's important, to have this dialogue and talk about what it means. You know, there was some really interesting national-scale stories going on last year that were impacting people, and we will do calls on them. And they're voluntary. People don't have to join in. And we can talk about "How are people feeling about that? What did it mean to come to work when that news story broke last night? How are you feeling?" Right? We think it's important to have courageous conversations and put that dialogue out there, and we do that through the employee resource groups so that 1. you recognize there's legal and HR concerns and you want to do that appropriately--excuse me--but it's the right forum, because that's where the people are and that's where the conversation should occur.Zach: No, 100%. And to your point around--I believe you're talking about some stories--you're alluding to death by police of black people and other, like, stories around--just tragedy and loss regarding black and brown folk in the media?Tamara: Yeah. Like Black Lives Matter or things around immigration, right? These are things that impact certain cultures in a very strong way and impact, you know, how they feel about--because we can act like we can completely ignore that, but we bring our whole selves to work, right? And we don't know what people are dealing with in relation to that, no different than when we talk about those who are having to provide elderly care, right? Or they're the main provider for their children, or, you know, they're dealing with sickness or illness, right? All of these matter--all of these things matter, and so we think it's important that those conversations be out there to deal with, because that helps people cope, and that's important.Zach: It is. It's really important, and I think one thing I'm really curious about--I'm certain that some organization is going to do some research and make it, like, a formal report, but there's a certain level of just emotional labor that goes into being a non--a member of the non-majority, right, in the workplace. Like, there's--you know, we've [seen], you know, on The Root and other articles in the past. We've called it, like, "Calling In Black," and we've kind it made it, like, a joke, but also there's a lot of realness behind that in that just existing in some of these spaces, existing as you are, seeing some of the things on the news, interacting in these spaces where you're one of few can be exhausting. And so I 100% agree that ERGs are a really strong help, and then also having leadership that looks like you is a help, but I'm also really just--I'm personally curious, like, just from a health perspective, what the mental toll is for black and brown folks in the workplace, because it's a--when you see some of these things in the media, folks that look like you or that remind you of a family member or remind you of yourself, that has to have some type of impact on you, you know what I mean?Tamara: Yeah. I mean, I think that all of us have these additional +1 emotional labor situations, emotional things, but I think that for myself, right--I feel like this has been our world before I even came into corporate America. So I feel like, right or wrong, people can think what they think about it. I believe this additional layer that you're speaking to, this additional burden, however you want to call it--that extra understanding that comes when you are the non-majority in a world. And I especially feel that in Austin, because--you know, African-Americans in Austin right now is, like, 6%, right? [laughs] So it's a very small percentage, and so, you know, I always went to, you know, schools that did not look like me, and I was the only one. And so, you know, and then the conflicts of that versus my weekend world with my family and my church that might be all-majority African-American, for example. I think that we always have that emotional toll, and, you know, just like anything, I leverage my family and my friends to manage against that, right? And what I have to be careful with is to make sure I'm reading situations correctly and not putting something in there that isn't, and then sometimes it really is what I think it is and how to best navigate that with either courageous conversations or raising it up through the chain, right? And we have to do that, and we can't be afraid to do that.Zach: 100%. No, 100%. Okay, so I've got a couple more questions for you. This has actually gone really well. I appreciate you. This is one of our longer conversations in this series, and this has been great. A large part of your role involves talent recruitment. Can you share your predictions about what organizations will need to do to attract talent in the next 10 to 15 years?Tamara: Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. I mean, I think--for one thing, if they haven't already, they should be spending time--there's a lot of new companies out there that consult around the new generations and what's important to them, so the millennial generation, Generation Z, Generation Y, and what's important to them and how they operate and how they make decisions around company culture, and we've already done a lot of adjustments, and we're still doing that. I mean, we're pretty fortunate in that we're a consulting firm, so it's our nature to disrupt and understand trends for the future, right? We do that with [?] trends and our technology vision, but what we have found--and we've already gotten--I've gotten a lot of training around this already, but some of the ideologies, for example, for the millennial generation is very different than a baby boomer generation or even a Generation X, and so people need to spend time in understanding that. So for example, millennials are very civic-oriented, right? The percentage that they give, whether in time or money, is a lot higher, right? Sometimes they're more concerned with short-term versus long-term benefits. So example, in the past, right, if you were talking to a baby boomer generation, you would have spent a lot of time talking about pensions or talking about retirement and profit sharing or matching and all those things. Those same type of conversations don't immediately appeal to millennials. They really want to understand how they're gonna be valued, how they're going to move through the organization. They also want to know how the organization is giving back. They want to understand the corporate culture of the organization. And that's new, right? In the past, you didn't really spend so much time talking about corporate culture, culture fit or culture add, right, but these are terminologies that are gonna be utilized today, and so, you know, that organization has to spend time figuring out what is their culture, and what is the key messaging that they're presenting in that, so that people can make an interpretation of whether or not that's a good fit for them. You know, they're gonna want to see that that company is moving and changing with the world, you know? I think--when we presented as part of--a couple of years back, our technology vision that every company was a digital company, people were like, "What? What are you talking about?" Right? But the reality of today, I think everybody understands every company--it doesn't matter who you are or what you're doing, from oil and gas to higher education, you're digital, right? Because people interact today from a digital point of view in every regard, from payroll to, you know, those who are in the service industry to those who are not, right? And so you have to have a presence socially. You have to have a presence from a web perspective. You have to have an internal presence for how you communicate, chat, with individuals. So every aspect matters, so companies have to understand that. They're gonna have to take a strong perspective on their work schedule and their flex schedules, you know? We have fully embraced truly human at Accenture, and I think that that's important, right? It's important for us to have flex schedules. It's important for us to have paternity leave. It's important that we have, you know, extended [?] maternity leave considerations. These things matter to the millennial generation, and they ask. They want to know, as a company, what are we sponsoring at a national level from a corporate perspective? What are we doing on the local level from a corporate perspective? They want to understand how you're going to train them and keep them up to date on skills, and so what are you offering around that? So I think, like, companies today have to be exceptionally dynamic. They're gonna have to spend time leveraging profiles, and again, what's gonna be a good profile that would fit and learn and do well in their environment. You're already seeing that with artificial intelligence. You're already seeing people trying to leverage AI as a way to do screenings initially on what is the right candidate pool for a company. So they have to adapt digitally, right? Because it's already starting, and that's going to be the path longer-term, right? So just--and having a really strong, you know, recruitment cycle from where they're pulling in and how it goes through that automated process. The time frames by which people get through the cycle has to be faster, because people aren't gonna wait, and the market is really demanding right now. What are they gonna concentrate on from a higher institution? What's the type of profile? So, you know, I think today companies really have to be on it. It's really competitive, and it's really hard, but my recommendation is they need to spend some time at first just studying who it is they're hiring. The largest work generation today is the millennial generation already, right? And so they need to understand that profile.Zach: All right, now, companies. Y'all hearing Tamara talking to y'all, okay? And we gave this to y'all for free. Y'all gonna be over there trying to get everything--y'all gonna be out here thinking y'all's company is all set up, you know, that y'all got everything going on, y'all got the latest and greatest, you know, DOS computer, and us millennials, we're looking at you like [haha sfx]. You know, you need to pay attention. That's all I'm trying to say. Tamara, this has been great. This has been great. My heartfelt thanks goes to you for just being here.Tamara: Oh, thank you. Thank you for allowing me to have my voice out there on stuff that I'm really passionate about. I really appreciate that.Zach: Oh, no, no. This is dope, and I know the people, they're gonna love this. Before we go--and you've been dropping jewels this entire conversation, but I want to just give you one more spot to wax poetic if you need to. Any parting words or shout-outs?Tamara: Yeah. You know, what I would tell y'all out there is to be you and fully accept who you are, and spend some time knowing who you are. You know, early in my career I spent so much time on my insecurities, and I allowed that to direct my actions, my communication, my lack of communication with people. If people didn't invite me to lunch, I just sat there being depressed versus being like, "Hey, do you want to go to lunch with me?" Right? And a lot of that centered around impostor syndrome and being uncomfortable in a space because it didn't look like me and with people who didn't look like me. When I really embraced who I was and that I was proud of who I am and what I represent and really understood what I brought to the table, then I recognized I can control that dialogue. I can control the stories that are out there about me, and I want to own those stories, and that, you know, fully embrace you. Be your authentic self and be all of you, from your hair to your clothes into the environment into the story, into the conversation, and do that unapologetically, at the same time with a spirit of humility and respect.Zach: [straight up sfx] Tamara, this has been incredible. We consider you a friend of the show. Again, we thank you for your time, and we hope to have you back.Tamara: I would love to come back, absolutely.Zach: All right, we'll talk soon.Tamara: Thank you.Zach: Peace.

Zach sits down with Nap Bar founder Khaliah Guillory to discuss the concept of being well-rested at work. They also talk about the genesis of the Nap Bar and the workforce of the future. Additionally, Khaliah shares a few interesting statistics relating to the topic.Check out the Nap Bar! Connect with them on their socials here: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, FacebookConnect with Khaliah on a variety of platforms! LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, FacebookRead the WSJ article mentioned on the show!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, check it out. Y'all know how we do, okay? We have real talk in a corporate world. We try to center the experiences of black and brown voices and identities in the workplace, and we do that by talking about evergreen topics, but we just want to make sure that we're talking about them from a non-white point of view. So that's where you got me, you got Ade, and of course you have our guests, and who would we be if we didn't have a great guest today like we always do? Khaliah Guillory. Khaliah, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Khaliah: Yo. What's going on, Zach? Thank you so much for having me on. I'm absolutely honored to be here with the Living Corporate crew. Thank you for the invite.Zach: Oh, no, no, no. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now, look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Khaliah: Sure. So I am a lover of humanity. Love me some people. I love to connect with people. I love '80s music. I have it on rotation, in the catalog, on a regular basis. I am absolutely obsessed with sunglasses, watches, and socks. If I could get away with just wearing that all day, especially in Houston in the middle of summer, I would. Zach: Wait a minute. Hold up now. [sound effect]Khaliah: Oh, we're gonna have so much fun. And I--you know, that's what I do, and I always like to lead with who I am from a personality standpoint. And the meaning of my name means Chosen One, because that ties into what I do. I think sometimes and often times we get caught up into what we do and we think that's who we are, but if we don't lead with who we are, then how can we really be able to connect the dots to understand what we do? So, like, I mentioned my name is Khaliah Oni Guillory, and that means "The Chosen One," and I have chosen to transition from a C-level executive position at a Fortune 500 company as of November 18th of 2018 to really solve the 411 billion--yeah, I said a b--billion dollar U.S. economic loss that the U.S. suffered due to sleep deprivation. Zach, just guess how many days that was. If you equated--I know you've got a consultant brain, so if you can quantify how many days--working days that is--how many would you guess it was?Zach: You said 400 billion?Khaliah: Uh-huh, with a b.Zach: Hours?Khaliah: Days.Zach: Days.Khaliah: How many days?Zach: I don't know. Like, maybe 7--500. 700. 700's my final answer.Khaliah: Try 1.2 million. 1.2 million days Americans called off because they were tired and they were sleep deprivedZach: Now, look here, y'all, I don't want y'all judging me for that terrible math, okay? I'm a change management consultant. I have Excel and other tools to help do the math for me, and--Khaliah: You've gotta use your tools. You've gotta use your tools.Zach: You know, 'cause you asked me on the spot. I kind of halfway understood the question. I'm excited. You know, I've got all the energy around me. Y'all don't be judging me. Sound Man, keep this in. Don't this edit either. I want y'all to see me in my--you know what I'm saying, my vulnerability, okay?Khaliah: Listen, that's what it's about, man. That's what it's about, but look, you jumped out there. You were close.Zach: I was not at all close. I said 700, and I didn't understand the question. You looking at me talking about [sound effect]. I'm like--you said 1.3 milly.Khaliah: 1.2. Zach: Oh, my goodness. And see, I'm wrong again. But anyway--Khaliah: It was probably 700 in a small town like Sugarland. Boom. See? See how we just changed the narrative? You've just gotta change that narrative.Zach: Okay. So okay, look, all the jokes aside, give us the stat again. Give us the stat again.Khaliah: $411 billion is the total amount the U.S. suffered due to sleep deprivation for economic loss. So from an economic loss, the U.S. lost $411 billion due to sleep deprivation, and that equated to 1.2 million working days that Americans called off because they were tired. Zach: Wow.Khaliah: So we can peel the onion back a little bit more. I'm doing the air quotes. Remember when it was "on trend" to take mental health days? And it probably still is. I was one of those people that took--I said, "Man, this is smart. Once a month [?], and it's a mental health day, and I'ma do whatever I want to do, and basically what that meant is that I slept all day because I was exhausted. I was working 80 hours a week, and that was the one day of the month that I gave myself permission to actually rest, which is the craziest thing in the world because we should be able to rest every single day.Zach: Absolutely. And so--so then let's talk about that. So that's your passion, right, and I think it's a really--just a really good segue into our topic for the day, right? Our topic is wellness, and specifically this time the topic is around the concept of being well-rested. And considering your passion and the research that you've done around the lack of restfulness that we have in American culture, you know, what have you been doing with that passion? I know you haven't just been crunching numbers. Like, what have you done? Like, what's the--what's been the output of you doing this research? And, like, what are you--you talked about the fact that you're passionate about solving this problem. What are you doing to solve it?Khaliah: Yeah, man. So it's this thing called Nap Bar. It's the first white-glove napping experience in Texas that offers on-site and in-suite napping services for communities that we serve. And so this really came about April of last year. The wife and I were both--she's still in corporate, but I was in corporate at the time, and we both had and still have side hustles. I changed my side hustle to my main hustle. She still has a side hustle, but if we can, we would carpool into the city, and this particular day we had about an hour and a half to kill between our meetings, and I looked at her and I was like, "Man, this is my nap time," because I'm an avid napper. I nap in my car on a regular basis, and my nap was kind of--it was gonna be a little strange. So she looked at me and was like, "Why don't you Google "naps in Houston?" It's Houston. There's got to be a place where you can pop in and take a nap." I was like, "You know what? You're right. That's dope. I'm sure there's a place." A two-minute-later search? Zero. Zilch. Nada. And I looked at her, like, in disbelief, like, "How is it this is the fourth-largest country in the world, and we're the most innovative--one of the most innovative cities--" I said countries. "The fourth-largest city in the country, and we're one of the most innovative cities, hence we've got this Innovation Corridor that's being curated, but yeah, we don't have a place for people to rest? Wow." And she looked at me and was like, "Well, why don't you create it?" And I was like, "Yeah, okay." So the next day I go to Facebook, 'cause that's what you do. You go to Facebook and you ask your friends. I created a poll and I was like, "Yo, how many people out there napping during the day? Like, in your car or in an unused conference room or, heck, in, like, the--just wherever you can find some peace and quiet," and 99% of my friends, who are a hodgepodge of professionals, entrepreneurs, stay-at-home parents, these cats admitted to napping at work.Zach: Oh, yeah. At work?Khaliah: At work, and I was like, "Boy, they're savages." The savagery is real. So then I was like, "Okay, that's just my scope," right? "That's my lens." So then I started doing more research, and I tell you, Zach, I just kept going and going and going, and I found [?] sleep. There's a sleep foundation that does a ton of research of sleep, and 52% of Americans surveyed--like, 10,000 cats were surveyed last year, and they admitted--52% of them admitted to napping at work. Now, imagine how many people who were napping, but they just was like--Zach: Oh, yeah. You know they're lying.Khaliah: "Yeah, I'm not admitting this. They're gonna find out and they're gonna come get me and fire me." Like, imagine. So then I just continued to do my research, and then I stumbled upon--the CDC had a stat out there talking about, you know, driving drowsy is equivalent to driving under the influence. So I just kept going and going and going. I was like, "Okay, clearly I'm not just solving a problem. I'm solving the root of a problem with Nap Bar."Zach: You are, and you know what? You know, it's wild because, like you said, there's a stigma against, like, even talking about the fact that you might be sleepy, right? You know, you're over here thinking like--you know what I'm saying? You don't want them--you know, you turn around, [and] you slip out in a moment of weakness that you--you know, you might take a nap from time to time, and then you've got the [sound effect]. You know, they're coming for you. And it's just--it's wild though, because I also think really honestly--like, shout-out to you, because really believe it or not--and I'm sure you already know this--like, you're actually pushing against, like, the capitalistic, like, culture and, like, foundation that we work on, because part of just this work-centric culture that we have is just pushing your body until you break, right? Like--Khaliah: Yeah. And you know what's odd about that? Like, this is Living Corporate, so I'm sure people will get this line I'm about to say, but it combats everything--the fabric of people's culture, corporations' culture that they say that they do, and I'll give you an example. Corporate social responsibilities. How many--if you Google that word, and you Google--or you do a Ctrl+F and find how many times they put "people-centric approach" and how their employees mean the world to them, but if they really adopted a people-centric approach, well, then why are people being criticized for taking PTO? And why are people getting down to the last week of the year and they have a whole month of vacation that's unused and they're gonna end up losing it because they can't roll over but 10 days to the next year? Like, if we really, truly took a step back in our culture as a whole, as a society, then why aren't we pushing the envelope back on that? And that's exactly what I'm out to do. I'm out to be that little voice that's gonna be loud and obnoxious and ferocious so that we can pivot and transition into a true, true-true-true holistic approach to the meaning of living. There shouldn't be a reason why I don't enjoy going into work, and there shouldn't be a reason why studies show that the first four hours of Mondays are the most unproductive, because people have the Sunday blues. They think about what they have to do on Monday and then they check out, [then?] they end up staying out too much late on Sunday Funday.Zach: There was an article that just released on The Wall Street Journal about that that said, like, Sundays are the new Mondays, right? It's, like, basically the anxiety of--we'll make sure to put that in the show notes too, but, like, the anxiety of your work week, it, like, bleeds over into your Sunday to the point where you can't even enjoy Sunday anymore. And I'll just be transparent that, like, typically for me Sundays are like--are really like a mini-work day, 'cause I'm prepping for the week, right?Khaliah: Yeah, right, and that shouldn't be the case. You should be able to--you should be able to prep for your work week while you're at work. And I get it, we gotta get ahead and we have to do what we need to do, but it would be so much sweeter if you were prepping on a Sunday for your work week but if you knew on Monday you would be able to get that time back because your employee, or your employer I should say, included in your employees benefit package a health and wellness that includes a nap every single day for 26 minutes, and it's up to you to decide if you want it or not.Zach: Straight up. You're absolutely right, and it's so funny, right? Because, you know, companies are--companies right now, like, if you notice, like, in the conversation of work-life balance--and this has been--like, this discussion has been happening for, I don't know, like, the past six or seven years, but it's, like, transitioning from work-life balance to, like, work-life blend or work-life optimization or work-life harmony, and, like, really what they're trying to do is, like, just have your life be more and more just about work, right? Like, you're having a good time, but you're working. Like, "Hey, we want you to have a good time as you--you know, as you work." [both laugh] You know, "We want you to take care of your family and, you know, shoot, go on vacation, you know? [?]"Khaliah: Yeah, but, like--but even think about that too, Zach. Like, I remember going on vacation, and going on vacation for a week was, like, death the next week when you got back to work because you had--you're in email jail. You can't even send any emails because your mailbox is full, and then you don't even want to consider checking your voicemail because you're already getting those stomach-aches thinking about all that you are so behind on. Now you're regretting taking your vacation, which you earned. Like, we've got to reposition and reverse engineer our thought process around how we work. Like, there's a thing called intentional work, and there's some innovative companies that are doing it just right now. You know, you've got the Googles of the world that have napping pods. You've got Ariana Huffington, who nearly died because she passed out and hit her--like, passed out and hit her head on her desk due to sleep deprivation. So you have these advocates, but then we're still so far behind the 8-ball on how do we really truly pivot. And then, you know, it's funny because I had a call, a conference call, with a Fortune 5 company before this call, and I was telling them like, "Hey, we've got to get Nap Bar on site." I've got this calculation I walked them through, and it showed that annualized nationwide, based on 3,300 employees, they are losing $16.5 million of unproductive loss of work per employee. So that's the total roll-up per employee. That's how I got that number. And they're sitting here saying, "Well, I don't know how we can afford to get the nap [zone?]." I'm like, "Did you not just hear me?"Zach: Nah, you can't afford not to have these nap [zones?]. And wait a minute. And you said--hold on, now, 'cause you're not gonna just slide past that. You said you were on a phone call before this interview with a Fortune 500 company?Khaliah: I mean, listen, I'm out here taking my shots, man. I'm out here taking my shots.Zach: I see you.Khaliah: I'm out here taking my shots. 'Cause, you know, you get this. It's just--it's just basic math. I just need one person to say yes, you know, and then my demand is gonna outpace my supply, and then I can add another zero, and then another zero, and then another zero.Zach: I'm saying. Listen, I'm right there with you, okay? You're preaching to the choir. I just wanted to make sure that the people heard what you said, 'cause I heard you, okay? [both laugh] Okay, okay, okay. So check this out. We've been talking around this a bit, right, but, like, workplace pressure, like, it's real for everybody, and it's even more real for people in America and of course abroad who are in an ethnic minority and may be battling impostor syndrome, even harder than those who feel the need to prove themselves. And to be clear, like, I'm them. I'm people. But the reality is if you're not getting rest, you won't be good to anybody. So even if--so let's just say this, right? So, like, even if taking a nap is not immediately possible for some of the folks who are listening to this podcast episode right now, what advice would you give to professionals of color to practice restfulness in those 10- or 11-hour work days?Khaliah: You know, I think the biggest piece is we have to be the change that we want to see in the workplace. So it's vocalizing, being an advocate for rest in the workplace. There is a ton of research. People can hit me up. They can email me. I will gladly send over what I've collected. I'm in the middle of a business case with another company here in Houston that's gonna really result some telling data. It's almost gonna slap people in the face if they say "No, we don't want to give our people naps at work." I mean, this business case is gonna be--it's constructed in such a way to where it's gonna be hard for people to say no, but I would say how I got to this business case and a collaboration with this particular organization is because an employee, who had only been there for 3 months, a minority man--he was in his 1-on-1 with his manager and his manager said, "Hey, how has the past three months going?" And he said, "Man, it's been quite an adjustment, coming from college to the corporate world, and I'm working 60, 70 hours a week, and, you know, it's been quite an adjustment. I wish there was a time I could just, you know, take a nap." And his manager said--well, I'll say he wasn't a manager, because this was a leader comment. You know, managers manage people. Leaders lead. And this leader said to him--after he said that he said, "Hm. Well, why don't we discuss that on your next 1-on-1? Do some research, and let's talk about it next week." And so he did, and I had a meeting with him two days ago. What's today. Today's Tuesday? I had a meeting with him yesterday to button up the business case and the pilot. So I think the biggest advice I could give is just real life experience that I just experienced just as early as yesterday is we have to be vocal about what we want. And of course we have to be professional in the way that we deliver it, and I always--when I worked in corporate I always prided myself--when I presented a problem, it's to have the solution in my back pocket. So when my leader said, "Hey, okay, well, how are you gonna solve it? Boom, here it is, and here's all the research," right? And, you know, that's why I can say I have 10,000+ hours of research. Malcolm Gladwell says if you--if you want to call yourself a subject matter expert, you have to have at minimum 10,000 hours of research in your respective field. So when I said--as I mentioned, like, I can rattle off stats from here between here and Tokyo, where they do have napping pods, but I don't have to because I think we are as a society, when people hear the word "rest" and "nap at work" they'd initially be like, "Oh, my God. That would be awesome," but then they'd immediately think, "Well, is that gonna hold me back? Am I not gonna get up for a promotion because I'm taking a nap at work?" No. That's a shift that me and my team will come in, because it's more than just a nap. It's an experience. But on the flip side of it, we educate on why--what are the indicators for sleep deprivation. So going back to your original question, Zach, we just have to be more vocal about what we want. We need to present a--not just a problem, but also a solution, and not be afraid to get creative with it.Zach: Okay. Now, listen here, y'all. Y'all heard it straight here from Khaliah, A.K.A. KG Speaks, A.K.A. [?], A.K.A. Your Favorite Sock Wearer, okay? I'm gonna give you that Flex bomb right here. You know what I'm saying? Okay, no, you're absolutely right. In that story though--it's interesting. So you said a black man. Did he have a--was the boss a white dude? Khaliah: I don't know the ethnicity of the leader, but no, the employee, he wasn't black. He was a minority. He was an Asian-Pacific Islander. Zach: Yo. Shout-out to the--man, listen here, shout-out to the Asian-Pacific Islander, the person of color raising his voice, and just to keep a bean with you, I need to go ahead and have that leader on this--on Living Corporate too, 'cause I'm kind of shocked that he turned around and said, "Well, do some research," 'cause, I mean, that's not--I don't feel like that's a common experience. That's dope that he did that, and I absolutely believe that we should be speaking up and using your voice. I think that's an incredible story.Khaliah: We need more of that, and that's why I shared it, because we need more of that on both sides of the table. We need more of that from a leadership standpoint and more of that empowerment from an employee standpoint, because--you're right, and not only that, he sent me an email--the employee said, "Hey, it's a go, and my actual--my leader wants to come and check it out too," and I was like, "Please. Let's go. Tell me when and where. Tell me what time." I know where, just tell me when. [laughs]Zach: Boy, 'cause let me tell you--let me tell you just my experience. Khaliah, let me walk up in somewhere and tell my often-times-not-minority boss that I want to take a nap at work. Boy, they'd look at me like [sfx]. It's like, "What?"Khaliah: You are killing it with these sound effects. Like, I want to come over and see, like, what software you're using, 'cause you are killing it. Zach: Man, I be looking--I'm serious though. You just looking at them like [sfx], you know what I'm saying? Khaliah: But you know what's interesting too is that, you know, from a leader standpoint, for the leaders who are listening on the phone and who can even--you know, who can low-key share this with the leaders who perhaps might need to hear this, but here's a stat that perhaps will change people's minds. Millennials will be occupying, by 2025, 75% of the workplace. 75% of the workplace in five years and some change will be occupied by millennials. And what do we know about millennials? Well, out of the survey that I saw, 53% of them stated that they value health and wellness above work, spirituality, and even their friendships. Health and wellness #1 over work, spirituality, and their friends. So if I'm an executive at a corporation, and I know in the next five and a half years that folks I have on my bench right now, that I'm grooming, they don't--they value work, but it's not more than their health and wellness. I need to put in place Nap Bar today so that when they're in the C-Suite in five years we're already advanced into VR. We've got virtual reality going in Nap Bar. I mean, there's so many different things that companies can do today to set them up to win in 2025 when 75% of their workforce will be millennials.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and, you know--and that's the thing--so as you know, I'm a consultant, and one of the things I've really been passionate about at my job is the workforce of the future, and we're talking about, like, dealing with the workforce of the future. First of all, the workforce of the future is happening--is today, but the idea of the fact that, like, folks will leave--this generation of people, and not even thinking about Gen Z's gonna be doing. I don't know what they--Khaliah: Listen...Zach: Listen. Ayo. My siblings in Gen Z. I be looking at them like I don't know--I'm scared. I'm scared of y'all. Like, y'all--ooh. But, you know, we will leave--Khaliah: They're reckless, but they're courageous with it.Zach: Oh, no. I love it. No, it's not a knock. It's just, like, a "Wow." Like, I'm really--I'm not prepared. [both laugh] But, like, you know, millennials though--and I would venture to say it's gonna be even more so with Gen Z--like, we will quit a job, you know what I'm saying?Khaliah: In a heartbeat. In a heartbeat.Zach: They'd be like, "Hey, Bobby, if you don't stop taking these naps, we're gonna have to let you go." He'd turn around talking about some [sfx]. You know?Khaliah: Yeah, you know why? Because they were already researching on their phone the companies that are innovative and progressive that probably already have nap pods. Zach: Listen, they're gonna be pulling up just like that Indeed commercial that just dropped with that white lady. She got passed over for that job, and--I don't know if you've seen it yet. It's wild. It's crazy. But anyway, she gets passed over for the job, and, you know, everybody's clapping. It's clear that she got passed over for a job. She's over here smirking at her phone. Indeed app already talking about "Interview secured." I said, "Ooh." And I oop. [sfx]Khaliah: That's funny. Now that's funny.Zach: It's super funny, but you're right. You know, it's going to be a critical--you know, it's gonna be a pillar of human capital management, of talent management, this wellness piece, and it can't just be "Hey, you know, you can take time off, but you've got to come work--" No, like, it needs to be explicit, intentional, purposed policies that reinforce true wellness.Khaliah: Totally.Zach: Okay. Now, look, this has been a dope conversation, and you know you've already been a friend of the show, and I didn't even--you know, I didn't even give you your air horns at the top for the dope piece that you wrote back in Season 1 about coming out of the proverbial closet. Man, shout-out to you. [sfx]Khaliah: Aye. [imitating sfx]Zach: You know what I'm saying? Like, we didn't even give you your props at the top. So, you know, again, you're a friend of the show. You're appreciated here. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Khaliah: Man, shout-out to the tribe, the folks who show up, the folks who--and here's the thing. People show up. They don't have to show up, so when they do we have to ooze with gratitude for that. So I'm absolutely oozing with gratitude for my tribe for showing up, and not just for showing up, but for also holding me accountable for the likes, for the shares, for the--just the "atta girl"s, I mean, those things matter when you literally jump off the cliff and you have no idea how to open your parachute, but you can trust that your tribe, your network, will catch you before you fall. So shout-out to all of the folks who have ever liked, commented, shared, sent me an encouraging DM. I appreciate you so much, and I'm sending that vibe and that love right back out to you. And for those of you who are sitting on a billion-dollar idea that's gonna solve a trillion-dollar problem, I say "Go." Just go. You're not gonna have it all figured out, but you'll be able to figure it out along the way. And assemble yourself an advisory board team yesterday, because that's gonna be the people who will be in the trenches with you, that will roll up their sleeves with you and fight 'til the end to make sure that--that they believe in not just you, but in your vision.Zach: Come on, now. Khaliah: Yeah, man. That's the motto. That's the motto, man.Zach: I don't even have anything. I just got finger snaps, you know?Khaliah: That's the motto. Like, my legit motto is "Why duplicate mediocrity when we can borrow genius?" So why not surround yourself with genius all around who have access to the things you don't have access to or who have embarked on a journey that you're looking to embark on. Hey, it's the--it's the clear definition of working smarter and not harder.Zach: No, absolutely. Now, of course we're gonna have all of your information in the show notes, but why don't you go ahead and let us know where we can find you, where we can connect with you, where we can learn more about you?Khaliah: Bet. So for Nap Bar-specific, go to www.napbarnow.com. There you can also follow us on Twitter @NapBarNow, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook we're at NapBarHou, and for anything and all things KOG Speaks, which I am a certified diverse speaker, and I speak on diversity and inclusion, performance, leadership, change management. You can catch all of my work there at www.KOGpassion.com, and then my handles on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook is KOGSpeaks. Zach: Come on, now. Now, look, this has been great, and that does it for us, y'all. So thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Now, please say the dash. Now, look, Khaliah, it's wild because, you know, we own actually all of the Living Corporate variations. So, like, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.net. We've even got, like, livingcorporate.org. We don't have livingcorporate.com 'cause Australia still has livingcorporate.com. Khaliah: They ain't letting it go. You're not gonna negotiate the 5,000--Zach: I don't know how brolic the brand would need to be for us to walk up to a continent and be like, "Ayo, come off that domain." I don't know, but maybe one day. That's a go. I feel like the day that we can--we can Deebo Australia for our domain, that's the day--Khaliah: That's when you've arrived.Zach: That's when you've arrived.Khaliah: That's the day you've arrived.Zach: Right, I'm saying. Okay, okay. So look, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, or you can just DM us on anything, you know what I'm saying? Our DMs are wide open. Like, we're just trying to talk to you, you know what I'm saying? Now, look, this has been Zach, and you have been talking with Khaliah Guillory, okay? Founder and CEO of the Nap Bar. Make sure you check out all of her information. It's gonna be all in the show notes. Do not forget. Listen, I'm talking to y'all right now. Sound Man, stop the music. Listen. I don't want y'all to listen to this and, like, be like, "Oh, okay, here goes Zach with the sign-off again," 'cause see, y'all see I'm flipping it up. This is not, like, an insert. I'm talking live right now, okay? I want y'all to stop, look in the show notes, okay, and click it. I ain't trying to be aggressive with y'all, okay? I'm not trying to do nothing extra, okay? I'm not dangerous, I promise. I'm just telling you, you know what I'm saying, get the information. Make sure you learn about the Nap Bar, especially if you're in Houston, and get yourself some rest. Am I tripping, Khaliah?Khaliah: Nah, not at all, bro. Not at all.Zach: All right. All right, well, dope. Well, look here. Until next time, talk to y'all soon. Love y'all. Peace.Khaliah: Peace.

Zach sits down with the host of the Trill MBA Show, Felicia Ann Rose Enuha, in this special crossover centered around respectability politics. They discuss the importance of encouraging folks to embrace their full selves, noting that only in being your most authentic self can you really be your best at work.Check out the Trill MBA Show! Part 2 is on Apple!https://trillmba.com/episodes/https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/i-am-not-your-negro-respectability-politics-w-zach/id1361878040?i=1000440238742Righteous Discontent on Amazonhttps://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Discontent-Movement-Baptist-1880-1920/dp/0674769783Connect with us!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and listen, we have a really special episode. We have a special--and I do mean special--co-host with us today. Please introduce yourself.Felicia: What's up, Living Corporate family? [record scratch]Zach: [?].Felicia: I can't help it. This is Felicia Ann Rose Enuha, A.K.A. the truest MBA you will ever know, and I am the creator, executive producer, and host of the Trill MBA podcast, where my goal is to help you survive and thrive in Corporate America by giving you the truth and being as real as only I can be. So I am super excited to be here with you today, Zach, because I love Living Corporate. I love everything you guys stand for. I love the content you guys are putting out for the people, and so thank you for this opportunity to hang out with you and talk that talk today.Zach: Nah. Definitely the privilege is ours, and we definitely love Trill MBA. You do great content. It was interesting, 'cause in our research trying to figure out, okay, who's doing what it is that we're trying to do, who's out here really trying to have honest, courageous discussions about non-majority experiences in a--in a workplace, and Trill MBA was really, like, the only podcast that we saw that was really focused on that, and it's interesting because we actually had a conversation, like, internally about even, like, progressing and, like, moving forward with the Living Corporate platform, because we wanted to understand if we needed to be here, right? But over time I think what we realized is, like, there's definitely more than enough space for any voices that are aiming to do this, and the fact of the matter is if I look across the entire podcast landscape and I can only see one, then, I mean, that probably means, you know, it needs a little bit more.Felicia: Yeah. We need all different perspectives, 'cause here's the thing. As black people, we are not a monolith. Like, what goes for one black person doesn't go for the other. Hey, guess what? Not all black folks are Christian. Not all black folks are Baptists, you know? You know, like, we're not all the same, but the problem is the media portrays us as that one black friend or that crackhead or that baby momma, and that's what it's been until recently, right?Zach: Until recently, that's true.Felicia: And so we have these stereotypes that we need to fight, and the only way to do that is for many more of us to tell our stories, you know, be real about what's happening to us in different aspects of our lives in corporate spaces. That's just one aspect of, God, so many.Zach: No, that's super true, and I think it's interesting. Even the way that, like, you're framing this, in which I agree, is--I think, like, our vibes are really different, right? Like, our core messages are the same, but our vibes are different. So, like, Trill MBA, you know, y'all are--correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is y'all have been focused on, like, the very visceral experiences of black folks and how to really shed off the BS and really be your full selves at work. Now, Living Corporate, we aim to do the same thing, but we're not just focused on black folks and the framing and the tone in which we take around certain topics are a little bit different, and one could even say it's almost like an exercise in respectability politics in the way that we go about handling our content.Felicia: Yes, which is what we're gonna talk about today, and--Zach: Segue king.Felicia: [laughs] Well, the thing is also, like, I'm very focused on black women, because that's what I know and that's what I understand, and the great thing is a lot of the things that happen to black women in corporate also happen to other non-white males in corporate, but I want to pick out the nuances for black women. So for example, white women in the workplace, they get up in the morning, they'll look in the mirror, and their concern may be, "Okay, does this skirt fit too tight? Because I don't want to draw negative attention or derail my career because I'm coming off too sexy at work," whereas black women look in the mirror and say, "Okay, do I wear my natural hair today, or do I need to put this heat on it and damage it one more again? What meetings I got today?" So it's the same experience in the root of oppression. It just shows itself differently, and that's what I want to bring to the forefront.Zach: It's more than appreciated and needed, but yeah, you're right. We're talking today about respectability politics, and for those--'cause we haven't really said this yet, but we're gonna say it now. So this is, like, a two-parter, y'all. So we're gonna have part one on the Living Corporate side, and then we're gonna have part two on the Trill MBA side. But we just want to kind of give some context in terms of just what it is that we're talking about. So I want to go ahead and give a quick definition of respectability politics, and it's interesting 'cause when you look up respectability politics--like, you, like, Google it, right? So there's a Wikipedia entry, and then there's a couple of, like, posts on Medium, and there's also an article on The Root, but there isn't, like, a super historical breakdown, like, within The New York Times or the Washington Post or even, like, The Atlantic. Like, it's not--it's not necessarily something that we just talk about and really explore it in-depth in the same ways as we have other, like, hot terms, hot button terms, but I do want to talk a little bit about it. So the term "politics of respectability"--I'm reading from the Wiki, y'all, so don't judge me. Ultimately, when you--when you look at the history of respectability politics, it really actually started from the efforts of black women aiming to distance themselves from the negative stereotypes that came with being black in their communities, and it aims to control or really set the terms of behavior to make sure that your behavior kind of adheres to norms, and those norms are typically established by the majority. Stereotypes typically, like, around, like, us being lazy or dumb or violent or immoral, and so a lot of times when you think about, like, respectability politics, think about the difference between Carlton and Will on The Fresh Prince of Bel Air, right? So, like, Carlton was, like, very quote-unquote articulate. He dressed--he did not, you know, sag his pants. He was a respectable guy. He was very intelligent, whereas Will was--he'd sag his pants, he'd laugh, he'd joke. He'd be all loud, you know what I mean? He was--he dated a lot. So, you know, he was not monogamous at all, and so, you know, that's where you see--you definitely see, like, a dichotomy there. And then it says--again, y'all, I'm reading off the Wiki. That's, like, kind of some of the background, but I'm also gonna put the other links in here around some of the other posts that we found, some of the other research that we found. There are research studies that associate part of the high burden of mental health disease for black Americans on assimilationist behaviors. So what does that mean? So the idea or the activity of us aiming to "act white," quote-unquote, puts a mental strain on us, right? Like, the idea that we need to adhere and just, like, behave in a certain way all the time, and that self-policing, that active self-policing, is mentally draining. Researchers Hedwig Lee and Margaret Takako Hicken argue further conversations about respectability politics should always consider the challenge of negotiating every day social spaces as a black American and how this impacts mental health. And then so really though if you want to--if you want to really read more on the origins of respectability politics, check out the book Righteous Discontent: The Women's Movement in the Black Baptist Church, 188-1920, written by Evelyn Brooks Higginbotham. And that's where the term was really coined and created, and it really, again, was to describe the social and political changes in the black community during this time. So this was transitioning from slavery. There was a movement that originated in the black church to really, like, almost reform the black image. This black image was one that was created through oppression, but it was the idea of having the right types of behaviors to be accepted as a functioning member of society. And you see that. Again, like, when you--I remember when I grew up, you know, when I was a little kid, there would be other black people who would be like, you know, "Y'all need to stop acting so black. Y'all need to act white." Right? Or if you're hanging out with your friends, your black friends, they'd be like, "You acting white," if you happen to do well in school or speak well or just reject--like, just reject slang or--it's like, "Oh, you actin' white." It's like, "I'm not acting white. I'm just--" I'm not acting white. Like, that is super problematic, but that's the idea of respectability politics. And then, like--look, so here you go. So y'all want another example? I'm about to say a bunch of buzzwords today. Black Lives Matter. So the Black Lives Matter movement is an example of a movement against respectability politics. The movement was motivated by the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. So we know the story of an unarmed teenager shot by a neighbor. In line with the growth of the Black Lives Matter movement, some celebrities who have typically shied away from the conversations about race have begun to engage the topic. And so we have, like, Shonda Rhimes as an example. Of course we have John Legend, but, like, there's--again, y'all, like, that's the idea. Am I making sense, Felicia? Or am I just kind of all over the place?Felicia: Yeah. I'm over here triggered that--like, that's why I'm like, "Oh, my God, yeah," 'cause I was that kid who was told in elementary school by my elementary school teacher--shout-out Ms. [Sledge?]. Well, I guess she might be married now. [laughs] But, you know, I would come to school and speak in black vernacular from home, and when you're learning, you know how to write sentences and how to write in, you know, "proper English," quote-unquote, you are told then at that point that how you're writing this is wrong. 'Cause I would, like, write things like, "What it is?" [laughs] "How you doin'?" You know? And the teacher's like, "How ARE you doing." "Oh, okay." And yeah, I caught on quickly, and I learned how to code switch without even understanding that's what I was learning to do. It became "This is how you talk at school, and that's how you talk at home." And so for me I also had a nickname, like many black people, and so my nickname is Lisa. And so at home I was Lisa, and at school I was Felicia, and so there began this whole psychological warfare of "Who am I?" [laughs] Or "Who do I need to be?" And always questioning that. So yeah, I'm triggered right now. [laughs]Zach: Well, it's interesting, right? 'Cause basically respectability politics, or adhering to respectability politics, says, "Look, for you to be treated better by those in power, you need to act this way," right? So you need to--you know, at work you need to dress this way. You need to say these things. Your work needs to look like this. Like, and it's so much about quality or even delivery. It's about the methodology of a thing and not necessarily the actual thing itself, and that--again, like, that effort to continue to self-police and tweak and adjust and consider every little thing you do can be genuinely, literally nerve-wracking, right?Felicia: It's dangerous.Zach: It's super dangerous. In my experience in my career, what I've seen is that a lot of times when you have, like, you know, employee resource groups or these types of groups that are, like, basically asking you to huddle around some aspect of shared identity--typically it's race--and for the black ERGs, what I've seen is really just a lot of conversations around respectability, right? So "Hey, when you come to work, you need to, you know, make sure you're dressing like this." "Don't be saying--don't use slang." It's just--it's a bunch of don'ts, right? It's a bunch of--it's a bunch of things for you to assimilate, and I think the biggest thing about respectability politics and just the whole concept of, you know, you need to act this way so that white people approve of you is, look, there's nothing you're going to do--there's nothing you're going to do that is going to dissuade someone from realizing that you're a black person, right? Now, in your mind, I guess if your goal is just to make sure you look like you're one of the good ones, I mean, I guess that's a choice, but ultimately nothing you're going to do is gonna stop them from remembering that you are not white. And it's interesting, because, like, when I talk to older mentors of mine who are the same age as my parents--they've done this for a little while. I say, "What would advice would you give me?" And they're like, "Look, the main thing you need to realize is you will not ever be one of them. Like, ever." Like, that's the--that's the feedback, and, like, that's what they've said over and over and over again is "Hey, you're not them, and you're not ever gonna be them." "So as long as you keep that in mind." He's like "Zach, you know, I know you're doing well and everybody likes you and blah blah blah blah blah, but, like, you're not--you're not gonna be them." And it was just--that hurt my heart. Like, for that to even be--like, for that to be--for that to be the advice that they gave me is--it hurts. Like, it's real, but it hurts. It's like, "Wow, okay." So--Felicia: Hold on. Let's unpack that.Zach: Hm?Felicia: Why does that hurt you and many people? Like, what is it about the fact that you will never be them that you feel--that makes you feel uncomfortable or you feel a certain kind of way?Zach: It's just--it's just sad. Like, it's just really sad, like, because a lot of times when you say, "Well, there is no--there are no races but the human race, and we're all one people," and all this kind of stuff, and it's like, you know, ultimately everybody wants to be accepted, right? Everybody wants to be accepted. So, like, when you're like, "Hey, I don't care what you do, you are always gonna be other. You're always gonna be different." And so it's the--the fact of me always being other and different isn't on its face hurtful. That's not the problem, but what is sad is that, like, the people that I'm talking to who are at the top of their respective fields, they are, you know, again, outside looking in, very respected and highly successful with a huge network of people that don't look like them--that ultimately even they, they go home at their end of their days, or they're in these situations where they still don't feel as if they truly are accepted and belong there. That's sad to me. It hurt. So that's what I mean when I say it hurts.Felicia: Yeah, and that's why I needed you to unpack that, because I didn't want it to be, like, you necessarily want to be them or want to be in the white boy club or want to be a white boy.Zach: [laughs] No.Felicia: [laughs] Right, I just wanted to make that clear.Zach: Definitely not. I'm very--I'm very in love with the skin God gave me. I'm happy with my culture and my identity. It's just more about, like, being other. It's just a different life. It's a different experience, and there's nothing you're gonna be able to do to really--to change that, and not that you should necessarily even want to change that I guess in terms of you being different, but it's just sad. Like, it's just sad to me that, like, I've met people who have been--I mean, they've been working for 40, 50 years. Like, they've been--they've really been putting in all this effort, and you would think at some point they would be truly accepted and truly part of the in group. And there's always gonna be a--there's always gonna be a bit of tension there in terms of "How much do you really belong?"Felicia: Well, and that's the thing, you're not. But we need to realize that that's okay, that it's okay to just live in your truth and be who you are, and I think what's so hard is that as human beings there is a need to feel accepted and to feel like you belong and that you have a place in the space that you occupy, and that rudimentary human need is expressing itself through the nuance of history and culture. You know, basically everything is the fault of slavery, but I think what bothers me the most is that you can't win in this situation of respectability politics because your mentors and those men that were telling you, "Hey, Zach, when you come into this space, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do this. You need to be this way." That isn't necessarily a rejection of who you are. What that is is survival, and so something that we have to give our ancestors the benefit of the doubt on is that the reason why they were trying to conform and assimilate is so that they can lessen the negative aspects of life that came from being so different and making white people uncomfortable. And so the idea is that if I show you and prove to you that I'm just as human as you are, that I'm just as good as you have claimed to made yourself to be, then you should treat me better, and you should just let me live, but that's the flaw in the thinking, is that you do this activity, you change yourself, you conform, but they will never see you as human. They will never see you as equal. They will never see you as them because the hate and the wanting to be in power and the wanting to be better than and more runs so deep through generations of the culture of Caucasians that you can do all the respectability politics you want, and it will get you so far--it will help you survive--but it won't help you thrive.Zach: It will, it will. No, it won't. And I think it's just--it's so interesting, because I would say, like, the most respectable person that we've ever seen on a public stage in our generation is Barack Obama, right?Felicia: Oh, God. Poor Barack.Zach: Like, Barack Obama is the most respectable person ever to respectable ever. Like, he is super--Felicia: But yet what I--and see, this is why I love Barack, right? Because, in a very rebellious way, he would let his blackness be known in public. So, like, when you see him greeting, you know, white people, and he's shaking their hands. "How are you doing? Hey. Good to see you. How are you doing?" And then a brother comes in that line, and it's a whole full dap up.Zach: I hear you. I hear you that there would be certain things he would do to let y'all know that he's--he is black, but what I'm saying is that when you look at his overall profile, like, this man has had--he always spoke very well. He went to prestigious colleges. Rarely cursed, like, in mixed company. He always kept his cool, right? Like, he was never angry. People used to complain about the fact that he didn't get angry enough. He dressed very respectably. But ultimately, people still talked to him crazy. People still called--people still attacked and degraded his wife. People still attacked and degraded his children. People still, you know, questioned his--questioned his competence and made a bunch of--a bunch of extremely racist statements. It was interesting, 'cause like, "Wow, man. This dude is the president of the free world. He's the leader of the free world, and yet he can't--"Felicia: He can't win.Zach: He can't win. He can't win. Like--Felicia: He can't win. Can't win 'em.Zach: I want to say like Ta-Nehisi Coates in The Atlantic said. Man, I watched this man, like--he said, like, "walk on ice and never slip once," right? Or something like that. It was like he was--he was squeaky clean, and yet, like--go ahead.Felicia: I was gonna say but then think about if Barack Obama had acted up half as bad--just as half as bad--as this fool, 45, that's in office right now. Can you imagine the David Duke-like person this country would have elected? Because I feel like the current person that holds the office of president--I can't even bring myself to call him president, but that thing in office right now, he is a direct result of Barack Obama's respectability politics and Barack Obama being this entity of a human that had to walk this tightrope line in behavior and manner and actions and, you know, trying to do the best he could with what he had, and they still hated him for it, and they just hated the fact that he was black. And because of that, it was like, "Well, this--" I ain't even gonna say it on your side, but you know what they called him, and now this is the--this is like, "Okay, we got rid of him. We're gonna fix it now," and then, you know, it's, like, swinging the pendulum all the way to the wrong side.Zach: Right. Well, you know, I believe it was in Martin Luther King's--I think it was either Where Do We Go From Here or the Letter from Birmingham Jail, but he talks about--he talks about white backlash to black progression, right, and he talks about the fact that, like, whenever there's something that happens where black folks make some type of progress in being more free, then the white majority--and again, for those who are listening, not every single white person. We're talking about the historical narrative of America--that there's some type of backlash, and I want to say, like, Van Jones--Van Jones, a couple years ago--as problematic as he can be from time to time--he used the term "whitelash," and that's what it is, right? And this is not a political podcast, right, but it's--to me, like, it's the biggest example to me of respectability politics and the narrative of, like, look, like, if they're not gonna listen to Barack Obama, with his very prestigious pedigree and vast intelligence, they're likely not gonna--they're likely not gonna feel you either. So, like, how do you--so then, like, the question to me then is what does it look like to reject respectability politics, reject respectability, and be your best self? Right? Like, that's really what I want to understand. I want to understand what advice it is we have for our listeners who--you know, who have--again, black culture, like, we--especially professional black culture is largely shaped by respectability politics. Like, you're gonna go and show up to these things. You're gonna talk a certain way. You're gonna not do certain things. You're gonna not have certain conversations. You're going to laugh at certain jokes. You're gonna laugh a certain way. You're going to dress a certain way. Like, because of respectability politics, because you want to fit in, and the point that you made earlier about, like, it's not to shame anybody. The origin of respectability politics and the origin of attempted assimilation is survival, right? And that translates today. Like, we act and carry ourselves in a certain way because we want to get promoted or we don't want to get fired or, you know, we want a bonus, or we want--like, there are things that we believe that respectability will earn us, will reward us, and so what I'm really curious about is that conversation. How do we encourage folks to be their full selves, right? How do we encourage people to fully embrace who they are and really be their authentic selves? Because only in being your most authentic self can you really be your best at work.Felicia: Right, and I think we have to really get honest with ourselves and understand that we're operating out of fear. And so this is something that I'll be touching on in my book. I'm working on a book right now to come out at the beginning of next year, and it's focused on career management for black women. And so one thing we've always been taught is that, you know, you need to show up in a certain way, and what I'm finding through my research is that the black women specifically that are doing very well in corporate America--so they're in the pipeline, they have senior-level sponsors. So their sponsors are CMOs, CEOs, CFOs, CIOs. Their sponsors are in the C-Suite, and they are being put into the succession pipeline for higher levels of leadership. Those black women are actually doing well because--they do something that's very unique in that they decide that they're gonna be themselves, but in addition to being themselves, they decide to share their story, one, and two, they also decide to bring their most positive self to work every day. So one thing they still keep I think from the realm of respectability politics is the idea that I have to fight against the stereotype of being the angry black woman. And I honestly think this is okay, because my grandma, she always told me "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, baby," and that holds true to this day. So when you come into an organization and you face those challenges and the stress people try to cause you, whether necessary or not, when you can come in with your happiest self, your most pleasant self, your most positive self, and still bring the critical thinking--push back in a way that's a win-win for everybody, you know? Tell people about you and who you are and your personality, which we've always been taught "Don't do that 'cause they're gonna use it against you later." When you make that change, that's where you start to see a resonating with the humanity of the people you work with that don't look like you, because now instead of being afraid of you they start to understand you as a human, and you're not just this black entity that they don't know and they're afraid of. And so that's the thing that we need to change. We need to focus more on relationship building and less on conforming and putting our heads down and thinking that our work is going to speak for ourselves, because work is only 10% of the equation in success. So you can do all the great work you want to. The mediocre white man is still gonna get your promotion. Why? Because he has relationships. And so we can now move from this idea of respectability politics, because it's dangerous. It's dangerous to our mental health. It's dangerous because it doesn't help us fight stereotypes the way we think it is. It's like you're trying to call the stereotype as wrong, and first of all, stereotypes are just generalizations that have a bit of truth in them. We all have a Cousin Pookie. Yes, it's true. He might not be named Pookie, but we all have him. You know who your Cousin Pookie is. I got a couple of--Zach: Every family has a Cousin Pookie. Every family, irrespective of race. Right.Felicia: But the thing that we need to get white people to understand is that our Cousin Pookie is their cousin Billy Bob or their cousin Ray-Ray.Zach: Correct. Exactly, yes. Everybody has one. Everybody has a problematic--like, a challenging family member. Everybody has problems in their family. There's--like, the things that are so negatively attributed to black culture and brown culture, those things are happening in all families, all communities, because life happens. Because life happens and we are all human beings.Felicia: Yes! And that's what we all need to understand. This idea of thinking that there's aspects of your life that will make you better than the next person next to you and somehow make them less human than you are, like somehow you're a better human, that's the crux of prejudice and racism and just all of these ideas of you trying to somehow elevate yourself on the backs of someone else, and in order to do that and to somehow keep your conscience, you have to dehumanize the person who you're standing on. And in this country it plays out around race, but, you know, this is a human problem, but the more that we use our intellect to recognize it and recognize that respectability politics was only a way for us to survive in white spaces, that that doesn't work now. And you can try all you want to. You're not going to win. Barack is a very good example of that, and so now what do we do? We tell our stories. We humanize ourselves to the world. We share our culture. We share all of it though. The fun parts, the sad parts, the raw, human parts, the elated, joyful parts, and that's how we start to shift in the minds of the next generations that we are not a people that you can continue to step on and elevate yourself, because we're gonna move, and you're gonna fall on your butt.Zach: And, you know, I'm really appreciative of this conversation. I mean, it's tough because when you think about--I was raised to really believe that "Look, if you just put your head down, you work really hard, you keep your business to yourself, you don't tell your story, then you're gonna go far." And it's like you said, that's not working now. Like, storytelling is the chief medium of connection, and it's growing to be that, especially in corporate spaces. Like, those who can best tell stories, those who can best connect the dots in a way in a narrative form. And not, like, in a bulleted list, but, like, truly how they communicate is effective storytelling. Those are the folks that are making an impact, and that's a different point of direction for us, and it's, like, very much so against the grain of what I believe we've been taught historically will keep us safe.Felicia: Right, but I want you to realize - everything that we've been taught was taught out of fear. So it was "I'm afraid for you to walk in this space, and I need you to keep yourself safe, and so, you know, these are the things you need to do," which is--I mean, but literally it was about life or death, right? Like, if you walked in and you looked at a white man in the eye, you could die, you know? And so respectability politics had its place, but I think now we need to move forward and realize it is a new day, and so for you, Zach, I would encourage you to be more brave, be more courageous, and take those chances that feel, like, risky, like, real risky, and go for it, because those are the--those are the things that get you promoted.Zach: Oh, no doubt.Felicia: When you go to the CEO and be like, "Hey, I'm Zach. I just wanted to introduce myself. How are you doing today?" Now everybody will be like, "You just walked up to the CEO with your black self? And what did you say?" Even your white boss will be in fear. But the thing is, when you do that though, you're humanizing yourself. You're humanizing this person who has this title, and everybody walks around on eggshells around [them,] and now this person wants to connect with you because you opened the door, and they're just humans. And so we need to figure out, as black people, how do we get comfortable in our own skin in the workplace to make those human connections with the white men that are old and stodgy and they have resting bitch face that--nobody ever calls out that old white men have resting bitch face, but, you know, like, how do you get past all of that facade and go talk to them and meet them and learn about them and ask them to learn from them and share with them the things that you know about their organization that they'll never see because they're the CEO?Zach: No, that's real. And, I mean, it's interesting that you'd say that, 'cause even, like--and I haven't really ever shared this yet, but, like, my promotion journey to get to a manager role--and I got promoted at my last firm, and I'm at a new firm now, a new consulting firm now, but it had a lot to do with me telling my story and putting myself out there and connecting and networking with fairly senior folks, and I don't--and I don't think it's exclusive--and I don't think you're saying this, and I recognize Trill MBA's focus, but it's a chance to--Felicia: It's for everybody.Zach: It's for everybody, right? It's for every non-white person.Felicia: It's for white people too--it's for white men too. Like, and that's the thing we need to realize. Like, in some way, respectability politics also plays out from an economic standpoint. So you will have poor white men whose narrative is "I was raised in the back woods of Alabama, and my parents scraped together enough money to send me to Alabama University, and so then I went to grad school, I got into Harvard, and now I've unlocked this world of elitism." And then they hide, you know, their hick family, you know? They feel like they have to fit into this elite people, you know?Zach: That's real.Felicia: So these things happen in different ways, but they happen to all of us, and so I don't want to deny anybody's experience. I just want to call out, "Hey, as black women, this is how this happens for us," in a way that humanizes us and in a way that you can understand.Zach: No, that's real, and so what I want us to do is I want us to go ahead and, for our listeners...Felicia: Oh, it's about to get real. [laughs]Zach: Check us out. We're about to go ahead--and you're gonna listen to part two of this conversation on the Trill MBA show. That's right. So, look, we've got, like, a crossover thing. It's really cool, right? Like, it's kind of like when you have--I don't know, what's all the shows on NBC? You got Law & Order, and then you've got SVU and, like, you know, all the characters kind of cross over. You're like, "Oh, snap. Oh, [?]. They're on the--" You know, so it's kind of like that for your podcasts. For the loyalists over on Living Corporate, y'all get to now hear me on Trill MBA and vice versa, you know what I mean? So it's kind of like that.Felicia: Yeah. You're the Olivia Pope, and then I'm gonna be Viola Davis. I always forget her character's name. I know that's horrible, but she is so ratchet on that show. Like, she killed people and everything, so I don't think--Zach: Oh, you're talking about How to Get Away With Murder?Felicia: Yes! Yes. You know, they did that crossover episode. Annalise Keating! I'm gonna be Annalise Keating, and you're Olivia Pope. So you all statuesque and, like, put together, white knighting it, and then I'm over here breaking laws 'cause I'm a rebel.Zach: Wow. [laughs]Felicia: So if you want to come over and hear us be real black, come on over to the Trill MBA Show, where--what we're gonna break down though, we're gonna give you tangible, tactical tips on how to combat respectability politics for yourself in your workplace over at Trill MBA.Zach: All right, y'all. Well, listen here. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out everywhere at Living Corporate. That's right. So if you Google--that's right, Google--Living Corporate, we'll pop up. We're @LivingCorp_Pod on Twitter. We're @LivingCorporate on Instagram. Livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com email address, and then we're living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com for the website. We're also livingcorporate.co. We're, like, all the Living Corporates dot whatever except for Living Corporate dot com because Australia is still holding onto that domain. So we're gonna have to see what's going on with the AU so we can get that domain, but yeah. If you have any questions you'd like for us to read on the show or anything you'd like for us to shout out, man, look, our DMs are open, okay? Twitter DM, Instagram DM, Facebook Messenger, and you can email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also contact us through our website, which I've already talked about. And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter through our website as well, okay? Let's see here. Shout-out to JJ. Shout-out to all the folks who are checking out the podcast. Shout-out to Trill MBA. You're gonna see us over on the next one. This has been Zach, and you have been listening to myself--Felicia: Felicia Ann Rose Enuha, A.K.A. the Trillest MBA you will ever know.Zach: JJ, drop the air horns right here. Yes, right on the outro. We're gonna put the air horns on here for my girl Felicia. Thank you so much. Thank y'all for listening to us. We're gonna be back. Peace.Felicia: That was so cool. [laughs]

On today's episode of the Living Corporate podcast, Zach and Ade read and respond to two listener letters. They provide their unique perspectives and offer up helpful advice on how to best advocate for yourself while encouraging others to do the same.Connect with us on our website!https://www.living-corporate.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you know what? You're listening to Living Corporate, and, you know, today--Ade: Yerp.Zach: Yerp. And today--[both laughing] we have listener letters. So for those who don't know, we encourage, at the end of every episode, to send us some listener letters. You can submit them through Instagram DMs, through Twitter DMs, through our email, through our website Contact Us section. Just hit us up. Ask us things and we will provide our perspective. We are not certified coaches. We are just--Ade: Or psychologists.Zach: Or psychologists.Ade: Or counselors.Zach: Or counselors.Ade: Let's just put all of our disclaimers out there. All of this is just from our perspectives, and we love y'all, we care about you, and we want to make sure that you succeed. However, you know, this is not a binding contract. Cool. Let's move forward.Zach: Yep, that's right. We're just two black folks out here trying to help other people of color, you know what I'm saying? That's all we're trying to do. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna read a couple of these listener letters. We'll talk about 'em, wax poetic, and then we'll wrap it up. Ade, what else do you think we need to add to this? Ade: Sit back, relax, grab a glass of water if you're listening, and sip with us. Take a sip. Oh, and also, just side-note - this is a thing that my mother has been making me do recently - drink some honey lemon ginger tea or honey ginger lemon or ginger lemon honey tea, whatever combination works for you, to just, like, soothe your throat while you listen.Zach: You got the--you got the recipe? Or--Ade: I mean, I'm not gonna be responsible for my mother's recipe getting out there. Look on the Internet. There's a whole bunch of different recipes. Zach: Okay, so just Google it basically. So they won't be drinking your mom's recipe, but that combination of tea would be good. Okay, I just wanted to make sure we [?]. All right, cool. Okay. Well, look, our first listener net--listener letter--Ade: Listener netter.Zach: Listener netter, which is a new type of listener letter, is coming from Raquel, and the subject is--Ade: Hi, Raquel.Zach: What's going on, Raquel? Also your phone's making noises in the background. Ade: Wasn't me.Zach: Huh?Ade: Wasn't me.Zach: Wasn't you? Was it me? Might have been me.Ade: Probably. Zach: No. Oh, it probably was me.Ade: It was totally you.Zach: Yep, it was.Ade: Narrator: It was actually me.Zach: My bad. [?] [laughs] First listener letter is coming from Raquel. Hi, Raquel. Subject line is "I need a promotion." Here we go. "Hey, guys. End-of-the-year performance reviews are coming up, and I'm really anxious about getting promoted. I've had some serious wins this year and positive feedback from my boss, and I've been bringing up my desire to get promoted. I'm not sure if it's enough though. Performance reviews start in about six weeks. What advice would you give in my final stretch? Thanks." Hm.Ade: Do you want to start, or should I go?Zach: You go.Ade: Okay. First of all, Raquel, thank you for writing in. This is a pretty big one. I think everyone in general is invested in the course of their careers, and feeling as though your review is coming up and you're not quite sure that you can advocate for yourself is a huge deal. So that said, I will give you the advice that my senior, the senior associate on my project, gave me when I first started. It was that you write down all of your wins. Like, in the next few weeks, start taking stock of all of the things that you did really well, all of the pats on the back you got, all of the shout-outs, all of the wins, and then also write down all of the not-so-great situations. All of the sit-down conversations that you had to have, all of the after-action items that you had to take down, so that you have all of the knowledge necessary to advocate for yourself once it's time for those reviews, because it's very, very easy for you to personally recall all of the times that you didn't do so well more than the times when you killed it, like you had a three-hour turnaround time for some huge deliverable or you owned that client meeting and all of the clients left looking at you like you were the second coming of the messiah. Just really take stock of all of the amazing things that you did, because 1. it makes you more confident in these conversations, 'cause you can walk into those meetings like, "Yeah, I am that person." Of course the term I'm using here is not "person," but whatever. But also it's very, very difficult for managers to miss the million, million, million things that you did that were amazing because they're overseeing a whole bunch of people, and so it's easy for some of your big wins to fall between the cracks, and that big win falling between the cracks can mean the difference between a $2,000 bonus and a $10,000 bonus. Maybe not that significant, but you get what I'm saying. What do you think, Zach?Zach: Yeah. So, you know, my experience in getting promoted is all about having more than just one advocate in those rooms, right? So one, to your--everything you said I 100% agree. You have to make sure that you're writing down and that you make it easy for people to advocate for you, and the way that you do that is what you just said. So writing down your wins, writing down your growth, like, documenting those things in something that is easy to read, like a one-pager or a couple of PowerPoint slides that you can quickly just send out and folks can, you know, review and speak to or reference. That's gonna make it easy. And then also, you know, you used the language "my final stretch." It's really important--and, like, again, recognizing where you are, but any time you're thinking about getting promoted or you know that you're looking to get promoted or you're looking for a huge raise, you're looking for--you're looking to get something out of the--you're looking to really progress, you want to--really want to treat your entire performance almost like a campaign run, right? So, like, mapping it out, thinking about who are the folks that you want to connect with, what are the things that you want to accomplish, and then like we've been saying, making sure that you document those things and that you equip the people who you want to be your promoters, your advocates in those rooms, in those spaces, give them plenty of heads-up, right? So you said you have six weeks. I would, like, look across, think about what you've done this past year, think about the people that you've worked with and say, "Hey, I'm looking to get promoted this year. This is my goal." And, like, don't be afraid, right? It's a goal, and ask, "Would you be willing to support me?" If so, if they say yes--depending on how you want to frame it, "If so, would you please review this here?" Or "Would you be willing to write something for me?" Right? So every company has something different. Some companies have kind of, like, in-time reviews. Other people have, like, informal kind of, like, write-ups and positive notes. Other people--like, there's various things, right, that you can--there are various ways you can document, but it's about gathering those points of evidence, and then that way when it's time for your review and people are looking for your--you're basically building a case for yourself, there's a variety of things people can pull from. That's really important. So, like, you said you have six weeks. I would really, like, kind of put your nose to the grindstone, reach out to the people that you know that you've had a positive impact on, have a conversation with them, make it easy for them to advocate for you, and then, again, kind of depending on who it is--if you know who's gonna be the person who's gonna, like, explicitly gonna be talking about, "Hey, this is why this person should get promoted," have a conversation with them as well. Let them know what you're doing. Give them all of that evidence, and then make sure that y'all have a conversation about what it looks like for you to be properly spoken about and advocated for. Ade: That's not to say that this process is easy, especially, Raquel, if you are feminine-of-center, it's not--you're not often taught how to advocate for yourself and how to really push for what you want. It's something that I'm personally learning how to do, and I think that there's no better place to do that than at work, because it's work, so yes, it bleeds into the rest of your life and et cetera, et cetera, but it's really just a microcosm of the greater world around you, and what it means to advocate at work is also what it means to advocate for yourself in your personal lives, in your friendships, in your relationships, and so treat this as a proving ground for--it's not just about work here, right? I would treat this as, "Okay, if I'm able to really push for what I want here, whether or not I get it"--and yes, you will, girl--"Whether or not I get it, I know that I've had the experience of what it means to advocate for myself period, regardless of where I go." So once you get this one out of the way, every successive conversation that you have that might be difficult, that might feel uncomfortable, cannot possibly be more difficult than the very first one. So either way, we got your back. Thank you for writing in.Zach: Yerp. Ade: Did you have anything else you wanted to say, Zach, before I cut this entire conversation off?Zach: Nope.Ade: [laughing] I realize that that's what I did, my bad.Zach: No, it's good. I feel like my contribution was the "yerp." I'm good.Ade: [laughs] I can't stand you.Zach: [laughs] Cool. Yeah, so all--godspeed to Raquel. Definitely excited for you. Hopefully you can give us an update and let us know how it goes.Ade: Right. Drinks on you next time around.Zach: Drinks on you next time, 'cause you ballin'. Maybe one day, you know what I'm saying, we can all work together, you know what I'm saying?Ade: Big ballin', shot callin'.Zach: Right. Right, right. So cool, cool, cool. We have another one here.Ade: Yerp.Zach: Ade, you want to take this one?Ade: Most definitely. All right, so this one, the subject says "GET ME OUT OF HERE!" In caps, so I really had to give it the respect that it was due. So Xavier writes in saying, "Hey, y'all. I am so close to just walking out of work and never coming back it's not even funny." Oh, my. "I seriously need a mental heatlh break, just go on a trip and never come back. JK." He really said that. "JK, I come back. My problem is that even though we have "unlimited PTO" at work, it feels like we're discouraged from taking PTO." Hm. "My co-worker went on a trip a few months back, and she's had to deal with jokes about her work ethic." What?! "She's been made to work really hectic schedules and just overall painted like less of a team player. I don't want to deal with this while at my job. I can't keep living like this. Please help. Frustrated and about to burn out, Xavier." [exhales] Ow.Zach: Oh, man. Xavier.Ade: You want to get started with this one, Zach?Zach: X. Yes. [laughs] Ade: Professor X.Zach: X! Ah, X. Nah, I mean, I've definitely been there, and I feel like I sadly--like, I'm closer to being there than other places, so this really resonates with me. It's tough when you don't feel like you can--you can take off work, right? But at the same time, I mean, when you start getting to the point where it's like, "Man, I'm about to quit," or "Man, I just gotta get up out of here," then I think that's when it comes to making sure that you have, like, really transparent conversations, right, with your boss, like, "Hey, I recognize we're in a really busy time, I recognize what's going on. I am--I am burnt out. I am exhausted. I am--" Just be honest, right? There's ways to phrase it in a way that does not come across like you're whining or that you're being fragile or dramatic, and these are insecurities that I deal with all of the time, 'cause, like, I'm always trying not to be the diva. And I'll say that. I'll be like, "I'm not trying to be a diva. I apologize for bringing this up." Like, there have been things that I've had to raise at work in my career that were perfectly right to raise, but I don't like being the center of that attention, right? But you gotta think about this. Xavier, he's saying--he's saying that he's, like, thinking about not coming back, and he says JK, but, I mean, like, he's not really--he's not really kidding. Like, he wrote this, right? Like, he took the time, wrote it, and sent it, so there's a certain level of seriousness to this. So I would say have a conversation with your boss, be transparent about where you're--why you're feeling this way, and then move forward and take the time off, right? If your job provides you unlimited PTO, and you have a--and you're about to burn out, then take it. I think the only thing is that make sure that whatever work that you need to get done or that you won't be tackling during that time, make sure that you're working with your boss, with your team, with whoever to make sure that those things are covered, right? That's the challenge. So, like, with your co-worker who they were saying, like, people question their work ethic and everything, it's like, some of that is cultural. Like, that might just be, like, just the culture of that space, but also if you're really proactive and you say, "Hey, look, for the next three days I'm gonna be off, 'cause I need to recharge, and these are the things that are gonna be happening in these three days." And again, like, not--I would not give them a day heads-up. I would tell them, like, you know, a couple weeks in advance and say, "Hey, look, these are the tasks. Can--who--" Like, make it very simple. Like, "Hey, these are the things that need to get done. This is the way that you're gonna have get these things done," and that way people can just kind of take it, drive it, and then close it. That way when you come back you're not staring down the barrel of a bunch of work that didn't get done. Your team isn't having to kind of pick up the--isn't having to, like, deal with the impacts of stuff, just the dependencies and anything like that that you--the things that they were depending on you for. You're able just to--you're able to kind of, like, have a clean transition, but if you do that and you're transparent with your supervisor, hey, man, you gotta take the time off and take care of yourself. Ade, what do you think?Ade: Agreed. I think my very first point was that succession plan that you were talking about earlier, creating just an Excel spreadsheet and listening the discrete tasks that are yours, that you own, and who is equipped on your team to deal with them, and then having a come-to-Jesus moment with your--with your boss, because I think of it as a sign of poor management that you would even have to justify you leaving and taking a mental health break. The reason I say that is because if you're experiencing this, like, heavy workload and this hectic schedule and you feel like you're about to burn out, then somebody has noticed. Somebody has noticed. I can say from my own personal experience, like, when it's incredibly hectic at work, my director comes up and is like, "All right, we're taking everybody. Stop what you're doing. We're going for a coffee break. We're just gonna walk and go outside and experience the sunshine on our faces," or my lead goes, "Okay, everyone has to leave at 6:00 p.m. tonight. Nobody needs to be in this building." Like, they're being proactive about caring for you as a person as much as they care for you as a co-worker or as a resource at work, because everybody knows that you are less valuable to them as an institution if you're honestly not on top of your game, and there's no way that you can be on top of your game when you are a ball of nerves and anxiety. That's one. Two, I am genuinely concerned, actually, about your co-worker having to deal with being treated poorly. So it's one thing to leave your team in the lurch and, you know, not have adequate support for all of your--all of the times in your workstream, or your co-workers feeling like you left them holding the bag on several items, but this sounds like she was just punished for--and it might just be your own current perspective based off of how you're feeling currently--but it sounds like she's being punished for having the audacity to leave. To, like, just go and take a mental health break, and I would look into--I know you say you love your job, but I would look into alternate employment, simply because--Zach: [laughs]Ade: I am so serious.Zach: [laughing] I know. I know you're not joking.Ade: I am so serious, because the same way that they find it comfortable to alienate someone just for doing what they say to do--like, a lot of these companies will go, "Yeah, we absolutely--we give you unlimited PTO because we care about you and we want to make sure that you're okay and your life continues, just because--" Yada yada yada yada yada yada. Okay, whatever, but if the truth of the matter is that when you do in fact take this time off and when you do in fact take advantage of all of the perks associated with your job you get treated a type of way for it, that doesn't sit well with me personally. It feels like you're being set up, and again, this may not be the truth of the matter. I'm just reading, inferring from what I see here, but it does feel like, or it does sound like, there is no winning, that you are either going to be working your butt off until you have, like, a sincere breakdown, or you take breaks when and forever long you need them and you're punished for it, and that just in general doesn't sit well with me personally. That seems like a bad practice. It seems retaliatory, that you would take a break and then be given all of these hectic schedules upon your arrival. So yeah, I think in general I advocate that you come up to your boss with full honesty, like Zach said, and a succession plan, and by succession plan I mean literally take every single thing that you do over the course of a week and list them, and also list the people who are able to take on those tasks, 'cause you generally--I don't know about everywhere else, but I know that I don't work in a complete silo so that if I ever have to take a break from work, there are people who know and understand enough of what I do that they're able to take--to pick up the slack in my absence, and it's just--for those of you out there who own your own companies or are senior management in companies, it is such a toxic work culture to create to say that people aren't able to take breaks when they need to, that people are punished for just living their lives. Like, people's lives don't start and end at work, and it's unfair and it's toxic and it's abusive to decide that your employee's whole world should revolve around work, and when it doesn't you punish them for it? That's jacked up.Zach: Nah, I agree, and I was laughing about you saying, you know, "I would really advise you to seek somewhere else to work," 'cause it kind of reminds me of The Read where people will be like, "Dump him." Ade: Absolutely.Zach: "Dump him" is, like, the main thing they'll say.Ade: But also, if you've ever--if you notice, like, people who write into The Read--and this is a complete sidebar, but I have felt this on my spirit for a while--people who write into The Read or the Relationships subreddit generally are, like, at the end of their rope. People don't just go seek advice from strangers for funsies. They're like, "Okay, I really can't talk to anybody else in my life about this. I need some kind of help," and it's usually just, like, a wild situation, and everybody needs to, like, scream at them, "Please leave. Please."Zach: No, that's 100%. You're not wrong. It's just funny, but ultimately, because of the capitalist society that we live in, right, like, life is becoming increasingly about work. There's an unspoken but ever increasing expectation that you're just gonna work, and work and work and work and work, your mental, physical, emotional, spiritual wellness be damned, right?Ade: Right, and you are validated only through your work, and I am here to tell you that that is not it, friends. That's not the truth of the matter. It doesn't have to be the truth of the matter. Please take breaks.Zach: Yeah. No, no doubt. So Xavier, I definitely hope that this helps. I pray that you don't burn yourself out, give yourself the break, and it's crazy because--what's really interesting rather is if you don't give yourself the break, your body will give itself a break eventually, right? Like, you'll pass out, you'll get sick, and, like, you know, that vacation, like, you'll get a different type of vacation. So make sure you--just make sure you take care of yourself.Ade: There are no beaches in hospital beds. I'll tell you that right now.Zach: That's true. [laughs] Oh, goodness. Okay. Well, cool. So we have--you know, we have a few. We try to do two or three listener letters, you know, per each of these episodes. We're not trying to inundate y'all, but we do have more, so we'll be back with more listener letters in another episode.Ade: Yep, and thank you to everyone who wrote in. We hoped this helped. Again, please seek out the advice or help of people who are even more professionaler than we are.Zach: Yes, professionaler. Who are betterer than us.Ade: Who are betterer at us than this, who are able to physically be there for you in a way that we may not be able to. We love y'all. Stay safe. Stay lifted. You have anything else you want to add, Zach? Do you have, like, a Favorite Things? I know I sprung this one on you, but you sprung it on me the--well, a few weeks ago, so.Zach: Nope, nope, fair enough. So my Favorite Thing this week--I do have a Favorite Thing, so that's gonna be crazy socks. So crazy socks are--and when I say crazy socks, I really just mean, like, socks with unique designs. So socks with unique designs, like, they've been kind of, like, in style, like, they've been normalized now, but I still really enjoy them. So I'm not gonna say the website I procure my socks from, but I've been really excited 'cause I recently just got some socks that are, like, pink with, like, little black and white puppy dogs on 'em.Ade: [scoffs] That sounds really cute actually. I was gonna make fun of you, but...Zach: Aw, look at you.Ade: I mean, I'm still gonna make fun of you, but they still sound cute.Zach: Okay. Well, I appreciate that. I respect that. So then I got some, like, lime green ones with, like, some red t-rexes on 'em, but they're, like, cartoony kind of t-rexes. So I love socks. I think it's an easy way to show a little bit of style. People laugh--so I know on my current project people laugh because--like, I'm the only person on the project that wears a blazer, but, like, from a style perspective I think blazers are cool, and so I'm gonna rock a blazer. Like, no doubt, and so--and I also have, like, a little pocket square, and then I have my crazy socks. And it's not like I'm wearing, like, high--what's the word, high-waters? I'm not flooding, so it's not like you're gonna just see my socks, but, like, if people go, "Hey, like, what's the drip looking like?" I'ma be like, "Ayo." I'll pull up the pant leg one time and let you know, like, it's dripping. I'm dripping.Ade: "What's the drip looking like."Zach: [laughs] When my boss--if my boss ever walks up and he says, "Hey, Zach, what's the drip looking like?" I'll be like--Ade: Why in the world--see...Zach: No one ever--no one ever at my job would ever say "What's the drip looking like?" No one would say that.Ade: Yeah, I just--I need--anybody from Zach's job, if y'all are listening to this, I encourage y'all to write in and please tell me the accuracy of this man's statements, not because I think this man is lying, but, like, I just want a first-hand account of his dad jokes at work.Zach: But I have taught my--I have taught my supervisor the concept of drip, and it's funny, like--Ade: On that note, we're gonna roll out of here. That's gonna be--that's gonna be it for us on today. Zach: [laughs] Oh, you're not gonna--you don't have a Favorite Thing?Ade: [whispering] Damn, I really thought I was gonna escape.Zach: [laughs] What's your Favorite Thing?Ade: So my Favorite Thing currently is Victory Lap by Nipsey Hussle. If you've heard of Nipsey Hussle--or if you haven't, Nipsey Hussle was a rapper and an entrepreneur who was murdered recently, and because it was essentially his final project--I don't know if there's anything in his vault that his family will eventually decide to release--it really was a spectacular album. It was nominated for Grammy of the Year, I think. If I recall correctly. If not, then whoops, my bad. But yeah, my Favorite Thing. I haven't been able to stop listening to it, and I encourage you all, if you are a fan of rap, of hip-hop, of storytelling in general, even if it's not a medium you've ever enjoyed, it's a worthwhile album to listen to just because it's such an incredible story. That's it. That's all I got.Zach: That's dope. Well, cool. I guess we're gonna get up on out of here. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast.Ade: Yeah, thanks for listening.Zach: Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate or Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Ade's already talked to you about submitting listener letters, but I'm just gonna say it one more time. If you want to submit a listener letter, make sure you get at us at Instagram DMs, Twitter DMs, our email, livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com.Ade: We're also on Al Gore's Internet at living-corporate.com, because Australia refuses to let us be great.Zach: That's true, but we're also at livingcorporate.co with no dash. We own all of the domains really except for livingcorporate.com. We have livingcorporate.net, .org, you know what I'm saying? We have 'em all. We just don't have livingcorporate.com.Ade: Which is wild.Zach: Which is wild. We have everything else but that. Anyway, appreciate y'all. We'll talk to you all soon. This has been Zach.Ade: And this has been Ade.Both: Peace.

On today's show, Zach and Ade discuss and expand on last week's D&I episode featuring Chris Moreland. They relate some interesting statistics and share a list of five important things to know to actually have an effective diversity and inclusion strategy.Connect with us on IG, Twitter, and Facebook!https://www.instagram.com/livingcorporate/https://twitter.com/LivingCorp_Podhttps://www.facebook.com/livingcorporatepodcastCheck out our website!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: Oh, man. What's going on, y'all? It is Zach.Ade: And Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate.Ade: Sho are.Zach: [laughs] Yes, they are. Now, listen. It's funny. You know, we've been around for over a year, and--[both laugh] we've yet to explicitly talk about diversity and inclusion. I mean, our podcast is about--essentially about diversity and inclusion, right? But we've yet to talk about it, like, explicitly on this podcast, like, as a subject, and I find that kind of--kind of weird.Ade: Super weird. Super odd.Zach: Okay. Yeah, it's kind of odd. I mean, you would think it's kind of low-hanging fruit. It's, like, right there, you know? You know, we start off with these concepts and, you know, every-man topics, and we didn't really, like, go straight at it, you know? I don't know why we are just now getting into this. I don't know. Anyway, diversity and inclusion. Ade, what is--what is diversity and inclusion? Like, when we use the words "diversity and inclusion," like, what do we typically think of? Like, what are we--what are we talking about?Ade: We're talking about an actual effort by an organization, big or small, to ensure that their workplace, their groups, their team members, are representative of the world at large, that their spaces are not these homogeneous microcosms, and that they are really and truly including everybody in their missions. I think that would be my personal definition of diversity and inclusion.Zach: Well, you know, it's fire because you said homogeneous and microcosms back to back.Ade: Bloop. Get at me.Zach: Bars. [both laugh] No, I agree with that. You know, it's funny though, because often times I do believe that's the definition in theory, but a lot of times the term "diversity and inclusion" is just kind of used to make sure that folks don't get sued, right? Like, "We're not racist and we don't discriminate against people, so we're gonna use the term diversity and inclusion." You know what I'm saying? Like, if you look--I've seen some organizations--listen, I can't go into all of the details, but I've walked into a variety of companies, okay? And organizations can be as homogeneous as a pot of peas, okay?Ade: As a pot of peas...Zach: As a pot of peas. They all look the same. Everybody looks the same. [laughs] That's right. I'm country. I said it. A pot of peas. But on their website, oh, boy... boy, they got all the--all the jargon, all the lingo.Ade: Every stock photo of every [?] you can imagine.Zach: I see the same five black people in all of these diversity and inclusion photos.Ade: I mean, at least they have the common sense to actually have photos of people that they actually employ on their website. I have seen some egregious cases of literally stock photos on these websites.Zach: That's what I'm saying. That's what I've seen. I've seen the same--oh, I see what you--you thought I was saying the same black people on one website. No. Well, I've seen that too, but I'm saying I've seen the same stock photo images across multiple companies.Ade: Wow. Like, have you no shame? Have you no decency?Zach: [laughs] My goodness. There's millions of us out here. My gosh.Ade: There's literally billions, but I think the additional point, though, is that, like, it tells me what you value as an organization when you're willing to put more time and effort into planning your happy hours than you are into truly representing, not just racially but with the gender diversity makeup, the disability diversity makeup, with--like, there's so much that goes into thinking through what it means to have a diverse organization, and y'all will blow your HR budget on beer. And not even good beer.Zach: Not even good beer, lowkey.Ade: It drives me nuts that the conversation that we have about diversity and inclusion is about making it more palatable for everybody else as opposed to being like, "No, let's center this on what the truth of the matter is and what reality is as opposed to let's center this on what makes people comfortable."Zach: That's real. You're kind of jumping the gun a little bit, but I feel you. I feel you.Ade: My bad.Zach: No, you're good. You're good. I'm excited. I mean, like, now I'm activated, you know what I'm saying? I'm here. Let's go. [both laugh]Ade: Get active.Zach: But no, you're absolutely right, and it's interesting because--so I had, like, a crazy idea, right? So we know that companies actively--you know, like, when you look at black and brown unemployment, disabled unemployment, it is drastically higher, right, than majority unemployment. It would be dope though if companies, when they interviewed people and, like, they know--you know you're not about to hire that black or brown person, so you say, "Hey, listen, I'm not gonna hire you, but I'd love to take your picture for some of our diversity and inclusion stock photos."Ade: Excuse me? First of all, lawsuit. I'm not even gonna say anything. I'll just nod, smile, and, like, put Voice Memo on on my phone and just--Zach: [laughing] I couldn't even say that with a straight face, but it's--but you know what, though? There's some money in there somewhere, man. There's some business in there somewhere.Ade: All right. If you're done being ridiculous, let's focus.Zach: No, I'm not--listen, I'm not really being ridiculous, because as an--as an aside, y'all, I just read some article at random about this little 12-year-old white kid who was getting six-figure deals to create dances for rap songs, and then people buy the dances, and then, like, they pay him. But he's not doing--he's not doing new dances though.Ade: These dances he's creating are a compilation of dances that black people came up with.Zach: Black dances. Yes, yes.Ade: I just also--I think this is a separate conversation actually, but I wanted to have a conversation about what it means to monetize blackness divorced of black people.Zach: I'm here for it. Well, this is--so I feel like I'm--Ade: We're going down this rabbit hole.Zach: [laughs] We are, but no, seriously though, the reason I was being--I was, like, making a joke--it's kind of a joke, it's kind of not--is like, people are out here monetizing and getting bread off of this, off of the concept of D&I, without actually doing any D&I, right? And so I'm just saying, like, at least if you did that, you--at least some of these black people who are unemployed that have a little bit more money in their pocket while they look for their next job. I mean, something--I don't know. There's something there, but anyway. Okay, cool. So we've talked a little bit about what we think D&I is. We've done some research, right?Ade: Oh, actually, I also want to have another example of this.Zach: Yes, keep going.Ade: Did you see recently that Twitter Detroit posted a picture of their office space? And all white people. Every single person in that photo.Zach: Mm-mm, did not see that.Ade: Yeah, every single person in that photo was white. Now, I think it later came out that the--all of the black people that they had employed at Twitter Detroit was at NSBE, although I don't quite--I don't quite know the truth of that statement, but it was just a really striking photo, that you are in Detroit, a city that is 84 or 85% black...Zach: Detroit is black black.Ade: Blackity-black as hell.Zach: Detroit's the kind of black that makes other people, you know, kind of uncomfortable. [laughs] Like, it's black. It's a lot of black people.Ade: Kind of. Detroit--up until, like, three, four years ago, Detroit was the kind of black that these type of white people were not going into.Zach: I mean, to be--to be honest, that's true. That's true.Ade: Anyway, I say all of that--Zach: So they said all of the black people was at NSBE?Ade: I don't know if--again, this is not something that I did a ton of research into, because they posted an apology tweet attached to that first image... and I can read the tweet to you actually. It says, "We hear you on the lack of diversity. We're committed to making our company reflect the people we serve, and that includes here in Detroit. We've got a lot more work to do. We have a team at NSBE now, and we look forward to connecting with the amazing people there." I just have two questions. The first is there are three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine maybe people in here, all of whom are white-presenting. There are a couple of people who are out of the photo or they have their backs turned, so I don't know necessarily how true that is, but it's incredible to me the--because I was able to see that photo, and obviously a lot of people were able to see that photo, and immediately see the problem, but what does it say of your organizations that you are so deeply homogeneous that you don't recognize right off the bat that, "Hey, we're in Detroit. Every single one of us in here is white. What does that say about this organization?Zach: Well, you know what they're gonna say. They're gonna say it's about diversity of thought, Ade. Diversity of thought.Ade: That's cute.Zach: [laughs]Ade: And let me not poo-poo that idea out the gate. Let us treat that as a serious, intellectual argument. Okay, so you were saying that diversity of thought is more important than physical diversity, gender diversity, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum. However, what does it say that you think the only diversity that matters, diversity of thought that matters, is the kind of diversity of thought that represents you? Because there's no way you're telling me that you have the exact same thoughts and the exact same experiences and the exact same lens as, say, a black queer man who grew up in Detroit. There's just no--I don't believe that could ever be the case. Like, if you are from--if you're a queer man from midtown Chicago, you don't have the same thoughts as a queer man from Detroit. So I don't understand how that is even an argument that anyone could make, but I say all of that to say that diversity is important. So is inclusion, because it would suck even more if the person taking that photo had been a person of color or had been the only disabled person in the office or had been the only neuro-divergent person in the office, and they're not even included in the photo. You see what I'm saying? Like, there's--Zach: Oh, I hear you. Yeah. I'm letting you cook.Ade: There's so many different--[laughs] there's so many different--thank you, friend--there's so many different layers of complexity to that that on the one hand, why don't you have any of these--any of these types of diversity represented in your office? But also I don't know that it would be a safe space for anybody to walk up and say, "Oh, I'm the only black person in here." Having to represent at all times, that just sounds exhausting. So it's just--it's a very difficult conversation for me to--for me to really think through. Do you have some thoughts, friend?Zach: You know, I do, I do, and I appreciate you actually, like, slowing us down a little bit, 'cause I was gonna say that, you know, we did some research, right, and we've read a few things--just a couple thinkpieces, you know what I'm saying? Some Gallup data from the civil rights movement and some other things, you know what I'm saying? And labor data all around what does it really mean to be diverse and inclusive in an organization. And, you know, we've seen, like, you know, five things organizations are doing wrong, the top three reasons why D&I doesn't work, you know, what makes an effective D&I organization, what makes an effective D&I strategy, da-da-da-da-da, and so, look, as opposed to us reading all of our--all of the findings that we've had and just kind of reading it to you--boring, right--we decided--we, Living Corporate, right, Zach and Ade--decided to give y'all our own list of what you need to know about diversity and inclusion so that you can actually have an effective diversity and inclusion strategy. Yo, JJ. Drop the Flex bomb. Whoa.Ade: Not the flex bomb. [sighs]Zach: [laughs] Boom.Ade: I'm really looking forward to you being a dad, because you're just so equipped, and I'm tired of hearing your dad jokes.Zach: Nah, drop the Flex bomb. [dropping] In fact, JJ, drop it again. Yes.Ade: JJ, please stop. [he stops] Thank you.Zach: Nah, but it's--you know, it's important. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna give y'all some game for free. We're gonna give you some of our thought leadership for nothing at all. All y'all gotta do is listen. I mean, come on. I ain't trying to brag, but I'm saying, like, we're pretty dope, right? Am I wrong, Ade?Ade: I mean, no.Zach: Okay, here we go. So how many of these do we have? We've got five, right?Ade: I mean, something like that, but you know we can always expand on our lists if we start riffing off each other, et cetera, et cetera. We got five. We got five on it.Zach: All right, we got five. We have five on it. We're not messing with that endo weed, because it's not federally legal, but we do have five on it. [both laugh] Okay, here we go. First things first. [Ade continues laughing] You're really laughing. That's funny. First things first, diversity and inclusion are two different things. I know.Ade: Bars.Zach: Bars, I know. Diversity and inclusion are two different things. Often enough times, we kind of just throw the terms "diversity" and "inclusion," like, we just smack 'em together, but they're actually very different, right? So a lot of us understand what diversity is. Diversity is the concept of having a variety of experiences, perspectives, in gender representation, ethnic representation, able-bodied representation, sexual orientation representation, right? Like, geographic representation. Having different types of perspectives in a space. Like, that's the concept of--Ade: Pause.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: Pause.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: [?] Sorry.Zach: It's good. Hey, JJ. Just cut all that out. That part is diversity, right? Inclusion though is different, right? Inclusion is not just about--it's not just about having people have a seat at the table, but making sure that those voices are actually heard at the table. And so a lot of times we'll say, "Well, inclusion means making sure people feel included." Inclusion means the power not only to sit at the table but to speak and have your voice equally heard at that table, right? And so it's not just enough to have a variety of voices at a table if only a certain number of voices or a certain type of voice is gonna be heard. Then it just kind of becomes, like, a dog and pony show, right? So no, I mean, that's really what it means, all right? Inclusion is all about making sure that those voices that have a seat at the table actually are heard, and typically, because of the hierarchical natures of these companies, voices that are not high on the totem pole are not heard, right? So it's about making sure that those voices are actually supported and given authority and access so that their ideas can be mobilized, right? I think a lot of times when we talk about inclusion it's like, "Oh, we have you in the room," but you're, like, over in the corner, or you're just kinda--and it also just kind of makes you feel tokenized, right? It's about actually making sure you have a voice. So that's the first one. Diversity and inclusion is--the first one is people don't really understand that diversity and inclusion are two different things, and they don't understand what those words mean.Ade: My turn. So beyond, you know, expanding the table and inviting people to eat--that's one of the phrases that I've used to describe, or that I've heard used to describe, diversity and inclusion, empowering people. I also would like to make the point that it's not the responsibility of marginalized people to diversity your workplace. What I've seen happen time and time again is that these embattled corporations where people realize "Oh, no, we treated diversity and inclusion as an afterthought, and now everybody looks like [trash?]. What do we do?" And they will hire somebody, usually a high-profile person, black person or a queer woman, they'll bring these people in and do nothing to change the fact that the culture that fostered this homogeneity continues, and so--and in so doing make it the responsibility of this person that they invited into this hostile workplace, make it their responsibility to improve everything. And then when said person starts making points like, "Yeah, you really shouldn't be making rape jokes during our lunch hour. You shouldn't be making them at all, but it's especially not appropriate in the work space," or saying things like, "Yeah, I'm actually not gonna let you touch my hair, Karen. I don't want to do that, and you don't have my permission to do that, so great talk." They're treated as though they are the problem, and we don't address the institutional racism. We address the black women talking about the institutional racism. We don't address the institutional--just general lack of respect for people with disabilities, and it's something that you would know if you spoke to the people who are experiencing these things, but it is instead more expedient to pat yourselves on the back for your awesome allyship and employing someone in a wheelchair and doing nothing to ensure that this person in a wheelchair is safe, comfortable, and can do their job without feeling belittled or patronized or outright ignored. So to restate my point, it is not the responsibility of the marginalized person to do the work of diversity and inclusion. It's not their job. It is everybody's job to ensure that the workplace is open and accessible.Zach: That's good. That's good.Ade: Bars.Zach: Bars. [both laugh] You like that. That makes you--that makes you giggle. Bars makes you laugh. I've noticed that over the past few episodes here. Okay, my turn. So in the spirit of your last point, my third--the third entry here is that diversity and inclusion will only go as far as the majority allows it to go, okay? So I'ma say it again. Diversity and inclusion will go...Ade: Bars.Zach: Only [laughs] as far as the majority allows it to go. So what do I mean by this? Let me give y'all some statistics from some Gallup polls back in 1961, in the throes of our U.S. civil rights movement. I'm gonna give y'all a few data points. Here we go. Do you approve--and this is a poll, right, a Gallup poll, given to white folks in 1961, again, in the middle of the civil rights movement. Here we go. "Do you approve or disapprove of what the Freedom Riders are doing?" 22% approved, 61% disapproved, 18% had no opinion. Here's another one. "Do you think sit-ins at lunch counters, freedom buses, and other demonstrations by Negroes will hurt or help the Negroes' chance of being integrated in the south?" 57% said they believe it will hurt, 28% said it will help, 16% said no opinion. Here's the last one, okay? This is the [Survey Research Amalgam?]. This is April, 1963. "Some people feel that in working for equal rights for Negroes, Reverend Martin Luther King is moving too fast. Others think he is not working fast enough. What do you think?" 8% said he's moving too fast. 71% said he's moving at the right speed. 21% said he isn't moving fast enough. And so, you know, when we talk about--when we talk about, like, historically, right, civil rights, not just for African-Americans, but it's the easiest one for us to point to because historically, like, when you kind of--like, there's the most data points around it, and, you know, really, if we were to go by the data and the survey data and what people were really comfortable with, then we would still probably not really be--I mean, we're not really integrated, but we wouldn't have even the civil rights laws we have, right? And I think an uncomfortable reality is when you talk about diversity and inclusion and you talk about creating a truly diverse and inclusive working environment, it can only go as far as the majority is comfortable with it going, right? And when you think about the fact that--like, when you look at the civil rights laws, and you especially look--if you look at our present, right, like, we're fighting to maintain some very basic civil rights laws that we achieved over 50 years ago, just over 50 years ago, like, and we haven't really made, in terms of legislation, much progress since then. In fact, again, we're fighting just to keep what we established 50 years ago, and really, if you think about historically, what we fought to get 50 years ago, we should have already had, like, 50 to 60 years before that. And so, you know, I think that's--like, again, just kind of pointing to your point--like, really reinforcing your point around the fact that, like, it's not--it's not about making people comfortable. It's not about, like, just kind of checking a box, and ultimately, it's gonna take all of us, but the majority, to drive and make sure that we're actually moving forward. It can't be the responsibility of the marginalized to move the needle. We don't have the numbers. We don't have the power.Ade: Facts.Zach: So that's number three. I'm volleying it back to you.Ade: Okay. I think I'm gonna expand on a point that I made at the end of my last--my last rant. So diversity and inclusion is all of our responsibility. It is not a position. It is not--the term Chris Moreland used was a function, and it's also not about how good it makes individual people feel. It's not about the money that it makes for the organization. Like, sure, yes, there are stats out there that show how good it is to have a diverse workplace, but--and I'm starting to realize that it's really not a common thing or a common opinion anymore to do things because they're the right thing to do. There has to be a cost-benefit analysis on this, and that's trash.Zach: That's really trash.Ade: Yeah, I don't--I don't know what's happening. Maybe I shouldn't say that. I know what's happening. It's capitalism.Zach: Right.Ade: But the point is that diversity and inclusion is about you as the individual respecting the whole of other people who are individuals in your workspaces and recognizing when there are individuals who aren't welcome in your workplace and doing something to change that. Even beyond what it means to be an ally. You are actively doing the work of being a good human being and encouraging others in your workplace to do the same. I think I--when we were working on the Disabled At Work episode, I read a story about a guy who got a job working at one of these big tech companies, and he just knew it was gonna suck, right? Because when he had interviewed there, he did not see anybody who was wheelchair-bound as he was, and he had a very large electric wheelchair, and he was like, "I can't turn it down because of the money, but I feel like this is not going to be great." But he then told stories of how everybody was inclusive. They would ensure that he could get his scooter up and down these hills in San Francisco. They would ensure that he wasn't just stuck being wet when it rained or that he could have a standing desk as opposed to the lower desk that wouldn't work for his electrical chair. So there were all of these different parts of what it means to be inclusive, and not just empowering and recognizing the diversity in your coworkers, but also saying--taking it a step further and being like, "I'm right there with you." Like, "Whatever it is that you need in order to feel comfortable in this space, in order to feel human in this space--" Like, we gotta be here at least 8 hours a day, dogg. Like, the least we can do is ensure that you are your whole self while you're here, and I think that is such a significant thing to highlight. It's such a significant thing because it very, very easily goes unspoken that you have a responsibility to your coworkers to not just be kind but be supportive.Zach: You know, I think a large part of diversity and inclusion just comes--like, a large part of it is driven by empathy, right? Like, really--and I know that Chris talked about this too in the interview. It was just about, like, understanding someone's story. Like, building a connection with them. Like, really understanding them. It's challenging for me though, because, like--and I really--I love what Chris is doing, not only at Vizient but with his own start-up--with his own start-up at Storytellers, you know, but I don't have to hear your story, right, like, for me to treat you and recognize that you're a human being, you know what I'm saying? Like, I shouldn't have to. I get it. I get it from a relationship-building perspective. Maybe I need to hear your story for us to, like, really build trust, but I shouldn't have to hear your story for us to, like--for me to just empathize and recognize that you breathe--you're breathing and walking, or--you're breathing and existing and having a human experience just like me. It's heartbreaking, to be honest, when I think about it like that. But okay, cool. So last one. I think I'm--I think it's on me.Ade: Most definitely.Zach: All right. So really kind of pigging--piggy-backing off of my first point, but it's really important. Ayo, if you don't have inclusion, you don't have diddly. Say it again. If you don't have inclusion, you don't have diddly. Listen, it's not enough for organizations just to hire non-majority people, right? Because often times if you look at the turnover rate of non-majority employees, they're significantly higher than majority employees, and if you do a cross-analysis with non-majority turnover and minority representation, you'll see some connections--you'll see some connections there, right? Like, you'll see in organizations that are not truly inclusive, that do not have representation and some level of power, distribution of power for non-majority people, those organizations struggle to retain non-majority talent, and I think something to continue to keep in mind--organizations, I'm talking to y'all--listen, man, these gener--like, millennials and these Generation Z, the people coming behind us, we're aware. Like, we pay attention, and we're sensitive to that. Like, we peep game. Like, we're gonna look and be like, "Oh, there's no--there's none of me here. I don't see myself here. Okay, so I know I probably got only so much time to go before I gotta find somewhere to be," or when something goes wrong or they feel like they're not getting the coaching that they need or they're not getting the development that they need or they're getting passed over for promotion, if they don't feel like they can talk to somebody and they're not represented in the decision--in that pool of people that actually make the decisions and make the company grow and grow, then they're not gonna feel like they can talk to anybody, and they're gonna leave, right? They're gonna be even more discouraged to, like, even try to stay, because they'll be like, "For what? I'ma be the--I'm the only person here." They're not gonna be as comfortable when it comes to networking and trying to build relationships and--Ade: Correct.Zach: Right? Because they don't know who they can talk to. Like--and then, like, many of us, we're the first people from our families in Corporate America. That's my story. Ade, is that your story?Ade: Like, only one.Zach: Exactly. [laughs]Ade: Solo dolo.Zach: Solo dolo, and so, like, ayo, like, inclusion is important, and I guess part B to this one is listen, diversity of thought by itself is not real. Okay? That's right. I'm giving y'all two, so we got six now. Diversity of thought is not--diversity of thought on its own is not real. It's a term that some group of people in some laboratory made up just to kind of pat themselves on the back and create diversity where there really isn't any.Ade: Not a laboratory.Zach: [laughs] They made crack and diversity of thought in the same place. What's up?Ade: I am...Zach: JJ, give me them air horns right here. [laughs]Ade: Okay. Okay, [?].Zach: Nah, but for real though, like, it's not real. Like, so diversity of thought is as relevant as diversity of experience, and if you look at American history, experiences are sharply divided along racial, gender, and sexual orien--lines of sexual orientation. Ade, you got another one?Ade: Just a final thought.Zach: Do your thing.Ade: I think that paying lip service to diversity is almost worse than not doing anything and not paying attention to diversity and inclusion in the first place, because you--when you pay lip service to diversity, you delude people into thinking your workplace is a safe space and that they can come to your jobs and bring their own selves and come and do what they love to do for you. When you don't even pretend, it lets everybody know who to avoid. When you pay lip service and you end up being these ultra-toxic, ultra-just all around disgusting places for people, it's almost heartbreaking, right, because people want to come into these places and do good work and go home and love their families, and instead they come into these places, you gaslight them, pretend that nothing is actually happening when, you know, they're facing all of these micro-aggressions, they are being passed up for promotions, their careers are stalling, and they have no allies and no way out. It's a pretty abusive relationship, I'd call that, and even further than that I would say that, you know, you're actively oppressing them in that scenario. So I say all of that to say that if you know that you have no investment whatsoever in diversity and inclusion and the success of everybody--and the growth, too, of all of these folks, then just leave us alone. Love us or leave us alone. That's all I ask.Zach: No, real talk though. No lukewarm DM--no lukewarm stuff, right? Be hot or cold. Either you're in or you're out.Ade: The man came through with a word from the church for y'all.Zach: [laughs]Ade: Don't think I didn't notice, Zachary.Zach: [laughs] Man, okay. Well, y'all, so this has been a dope B-Side, just sharing our thoughts about the interview with Chris Moreland. Really enjoyed him, and yeah. Ade, anything else? Do we want to do Favorite Things? Are we good?Ade: My Favorite Thing right now--we can if you have something.Zach: I got something. Go ahead, yeah.Ade: Okay. Okay, so my current Favorite Thing is the voice of a young reggae artist known as Koffee. Love, love, love--I have just been listening to her on repeat lately and finding out--finding her music, where I can find her, but amazing. I love her.Zach: That's what's up.Ade: That's it for my Favorite Things.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, you know--Ade: Oh, wait. I lied.Zach: Keep going. Go crazy.Ade: Sorry, one other Favorite Thing. I have this book I'm currently reading. It is the AWS Certified Solutions Architect Study Guide.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Ade: Yeah, it's my second Favorite Thing. It's just a personal--as a reminder to myself to keep working.Zach: I respect that. Okay, okay. I have one Favorite Thing, and this Favorite Thing, it's--you know, it's something that I partake in every day. It's actually a beverage, and this beverage--this beverage is called kombucha.Ade: Oh, I thought you were gonna say water. I was about to be like--Zach: [laughs] No, no, no. I definitely do drink water every day though, and shout-out--ayo, if you're listening to this, go ahead and get yourself some water. I don't care what time it is. Ayo, get some water and take a sip.Ade: Take a sip.Zach: Take a sip.Ade: Take a sip.Zach: Take a sip. Okay, so--[both laugh] Okay, so--Ade: Some ASMR peer pressure for your head top.Zach: That was incredible. Yo, we should actually do an ASMR episode of us just, like, drinking water quietly. [whispering] "Ah." [like his thirst was quenched, laughs]Ade: No. Let's move forward. [laughs]Zach: "Ah, these ice cubes." We could, like--no, but seriously though, 'cause we got these--these mics are pretty good. Like, we could just take--like, make sure the ice hits the glass. Clink, clink, clink. You know what I'm saying? It's, like, all soft. All right, so listen here. Kombucha--and please don't--y'all, don't kill me in the comments if I'm saying it wrong. I'm country. Forgive me. It is a fermented, slightly--only slightly--alcoholic green or black tea drink, okay? It is so good. Like, think about it like--it's like a soda. It's like a healthy soda, right? And there's--Ade: [?]Zach: Say it again?Ade: I wouldn't go that far, a healthy soda.Zach: You wouldn't go that far? It's like a healthy soda.Ade: No, it's not.Zach: It's carbonated. It has some bite to it.Ade: You know what? You're right. Who are me to disagree with your Favorite Thing? My bad.Zach: [laughs] It's so good though, y'all, and it's like--and so, like, you know, it comes in all kinds of flavors. You can--and it's a fermented tea, right? So you take the tea, and it's fermented, and then you put, like--you know, you can put whatever you want in there to flavor it. So, like, I'll--my favorite flavor is ginger-ade. It's like ginger and lemon and honey and fermented, like, fermented with the kombucha. Man, it is so good, and it's low-calorie, right? So, like, a bottle--like, the same amount of this drink that would be, like, I don't know, 200 calories in soda is, like, 50 calories. And it's good for your digestion, so it helps keep you regular. That's right, we're talking about health. We talk about wellness on this podcast, so part of wellness is making sure that you're regular. Come on, Ade. You know what I'm talking about.Ade: Please leave me out of this narrative.Zach: [laughs] But it's important, y'all. It's important. It's important to be regular, and so anyway, kombucha, it helps. It has those live cultures and bacteria for your stomach, and it's just delicious. It's just so good. So yeah, that's my Favorite Thing. I don't have a brand, 'cause we don't have no sponsors for kombucha yet, just like, you know, Capital City Mambo Sauce ain't wanna show us any love, but we still love y'all. It's okay, it's okay, but I'm not giving no more free ads, okay? So I'm not gonna talk about the brand. I'ma just say I like kombucha. Or is kam-buka? What is it?Ade: I'm pretty sure it's kombucha.Zach: Okay, cool. I just wanted to make sure I said it right.Ade: But then you said it really, really wrong, so I really don't know if you saying it right in the first place even counts.Zach: [laughs] Dang, that's jacked up. You're supposed to be my peace.Ade: No, sir, I'm not. Candice would have my head.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I just--first of all, that was a setup. Secondly--I forgot everything I was about to say because I was--I was so startled and taken aback at that--at that statement, wow. Candice, if you're listening to this, I don't want [?]. That is all.Zach: Candice gonna show up--Candice gonna show up to D.C. with that Yao Ming on her all 'cause of me being silly, and I apologize.Ade: All of the choppas just aimed in my direction, and I want none of it. I'm good.Zach: Yeah, nah, 'cause I'm joking. It's jokes, it's jokes. Candice don't listen to this podcast.Ade: Wait a minute. Now [?].Zach: [laughs]Ade: All right, y'all. That does it for us on Living Corporate. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and please subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question for us that you'd like us to read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. We're also taking any wins that you've had lately. We're taking any [refuse?], any thoughts that you'd like to share with us. That's it for us. This has been Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

We have the pleasure of speaking with mentor, entrepreneur, and businesswoman Kethlyn White to expand on our Season 1 self-care discussion. She shares both her personal career and hair journey and talks about the business she runs with her friend, Coil Beauty.Connect with Kethlyn on LinkedIn! https://www.linkedin.com/in/kethlynawhite/Check out Coil Beauty! https://coilbeauty.com/Click here for more Living Corporate! https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, listen, check it out. Y'all know by this point in Season 2--wow, that is crazy. It's been over a year. It's Season 2, and y'all know from time to time we'll have, you know, B-Sides where we just kind of have a real talk conversation with a special guest, and listen here, today's special guest is pretty special. She's pretty great, is pretty talented, and I'm excited to have her here. Actually, she was one of the first black women that I ever have worked with in consulting. Great background. She and I met in person, and she has a great story. We talked a lot about, like, strategic change management at the time and just kind of navigating these spaces. She has been a great mentor to me. She's one of the main reasons that I was able to be promoted to manager at my last job, which helped me transition to my new job, and yeah, she's great. I don't want to spoil too much. I'm gonna go ahead and introduce her. She is a mentor, a public speaker, a businesswoman, an entrepreneur, a creative, right? Her name is Kethlyn White. That's right, y'all, Kethlyn. So right, so Kethlyn, right, it's, like, a combination of, like--it's black, but, you know, it passes the resume test. Like, you'll still--you will still interview a Kethlyn, right? So it's a really nice combination there. Kethlyn, what's up? How are you doing?Kethlyn: Hey, Zach. Thanks for having me. I'm glad I--I'm glad I passed your sniff test.Zach: No, no, no. It's not my sniff test you need to pass. You know what--[both laugh] Kethlyn will make it past the resume test. It's not like a LaQuanda is my point. And Zachary of course is very respectable. Like, Zachary--I mean, how many black Zachs do you even know? You live on the West Coast, but, like, do you know a lot of black Zachs?Kethlyn: I don't.Zach: Exactly. So that with being said, today we're talking about black, and we're just talking about self-care and what that really looks like practically. A lot of times, you know, we talk about--we talk about self-care, we talk about--we talk about it from the perspective of natural hair becausae it's an easy entry point into self-care, but I'd like to really, Kethlyn, give you some space to kind of talk about yourself, talk about your journey, talk about some of the things that you've got going on, and then we can go from there. How does that sound?Kethlyn: That sounds good. So tell me where--tell me where you want to start. You know, self-care, especially in the black community, is a very large topic, and it could cover a wide range of things. I probably would need more than just a podcast episode to really dive in.Zach: Big facts.Kethlyn: Where do we want to start?Zach: You know, that's a really good question. How about we start with your journey in terms of, you know, your transition from, you know, adolescence and high school to college to then--you know, again, I don't want to tell too much, but I know that, you know, you spent some time out of the country and you came back, and you've continued to grow, and your personal image and how you manage your image has continued to grow and shift as you've been in Corporate America. I think that would be a really cool story to tell.Kethlyn: Okay. Well, I mean, from adolescence 'til now would probably be, again, another novel, so we could probably cut it back, but I think it is an interesting point to talk about, you k now, how do you grow with yourself, especially within not just what you're doing individually but how you do and how you grow within your job, your entrepreneurial ventures, et cetera. So, you know, for me, you know, I was blessed to go to Spelman College. Well, [I went to] two HBCUs actually. I started at Hampton and I transferred to Spelman, but one of the wonderful things about going to a historically black college is that you really are left with this sense of beauty in all shapes and sizes with people who look like me, who have my skin color and who therefore have very similar experiences. And we all have different backgrounds. We all are completely different people, but leaving an HBCU, you leave with a sense of pride that no one is allowed to take from you, and it gave me--it boosted my self-confidence that I didn't have going to predominantly white schools as I matriculated, you know, teenage years, right, all the way through high school graduation, and it was extremely impactful for me as I started to navigate the corporate world and entrepreneurship, and one of the biggest legs up I found was that, you know, when it comes to self-care, a lot of that starts at the root with how you manage your time and manage your space, and it's not easy to do, because when you start on your first job, when you start taking on and tackling, you know, your first venture, you find that there are a lot of people who don't look like you when you're a black person, and because of that you end up with a lot of different, sometimes negative, experiences. Sometimes it's hard to feel comfortable, it's hard to not feel so challenged. So having that spirit already from the HBCU provided me with a support system that I couldn't pay for, and so it really did--it really did make a big difference for me as I started to do and started to grow into my roles. I started out in consulting, one because I love technology. My mom, who is a boss in the technology space, she was a CEO of a tech company for about 15 years and now sits on the boards of Verizon, Nordstrom, Roper, you name it, right? And the list will go on and continue. So, you know, she was a huge influence to me, as well as with my dad, around making sure that--you know, they always told me I can do whatever I wanted to do, and I knew I wanted to be in technology 'cause it was the space that it was always going to be there, so I wanted to understand it. [?] an engineer. I didn't really have an interest in being an engineer, but I loved how engineers think, right? So I wanted to be in the space, and I went specifically into technology consulting because I was gonna get my hands dirty. That was awesome, and so I enjoyed Capgemini out the gate, and man, do they let you get your hands dirty, and I'm talking about drinking from the fire hose.Zach: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.Kethlyn: Very quickly. And, you know, so you're balancing and managing how to learn how to do that and start your new job and all that good stuff while also managing your space. So I had to set some rules for myself around how I was going to navigate. I had to make sure that I was networking and getting to know people within, you know, my company while also knowing that there might be some boundaries there that I will have to set for myself because I'm not as comfortable in different areas. So it was an interesting journey, but again, you know, my foundation was set, so from there I really was able to, you know, take it a bit further, and, you know, my self-confidence and my comfort level with who I was as a black woman really made a huge difference as I navigated the workforce, and you can probably ask anyone who I joined and started with. They knew who I was. I commanded every room I went in, and it was not necessarily because of my skills, it was moreso because of--obviously that was a part of it, but it was moreso because of the presence I had in the room, and that presence came from me understanding what my self-worth was out the gate. So no one was going to be allowed to determine that for me. I don't care whether I was taking meeting minutes in a meeting or I was facilitating a session, right? No matter what it was, I commanded that space and that presence, and that allowed me to not only grow very quickly, get promoted very quickly and network really well, it also afforded me opportunities to travel and ultimately move to Australia for an awesome four-year opportunity after I got married. So, you know, that's--I think that's at the root of where a lot of my, you know, self-awareness comes from as a black woman is, you know, what my parents and family instilled in me, plus, you know, the foundation that an HBCU provided me.Zach: So that's really dope, right? And can we--and I want to double down on the part that you said that, like, everyone who--when I was working with you, and I think that, you know, continues forward of course, is that, you know, it's like, "Hey, Kethlyn knows who she is. She knows what she's about, and no one's really gonna shake her from that." Can you talk a little bit about how your appearance and, like, how you managed--how your hair journey, like, came into play with that, like, from--yeah, from graduating Spelman to then, like, I don't know, today.Kethlyn: Sure. Well, I think it's important to mention that, you know, yes, I am that way now, right? I had to grow into that person. It just so happened that going to an HBCU really helped, you know, catapult me into that. But I still had my awkward--all kinds of awkward phases, especially when it came to my hair, 'cause God bless my mom. She just did not know, right, how to do it, because, you know, unbeknownst to most people, all African-Americans, we all have different types of hair, right? We don't all come out with the same type of hair. We have different curl patterns, different textures, different thickness, right? My mom's hair is extremely bouncy, right? It is very bouncy. She's got these big spirals. So when I came out, you know, she was looking at me--I had a huge head of hair. It's definitely tighter curls, but it wasn't just that. It was the fact that the texture was different. So very early on she permed my hair, and it's not rightly or wrong. she didn't know what to do, right? And she--and her mom and her family, they all had--they didn't have that type of hair. They didn't know what to do. So she permed my hair, and it was straight, and for, gosh, all the way up until I went to college, I stayed perming my hair because that just seemed like what I needed to do in order to get it straight, and at that point in time, straight was all I really saw. My mom's hair was wavy, so even when she had her curls [up], her hair was still semi-straight, and because I grew up in fairly monotonous areas, I still saw a lot of straight hair, and even with my family--a lot of the black women in my family, they also had perms or, you know, would press out their hair, et cetera. So I saw never really saw curls in their natural state on different types of people. I just didn't see it. I wasn't exposed. So when I went to school and I kept trying to keep up that perm process, first of all, that stuff is expensive. It is very expensive. I had--you know, there was only so much I was going to be able to do. My parents would side-eye me when they would see some of these bills and they would think--I was absolutely blessed. My parents were able to support me through college, but they were not trying to hear anything about this hair care stuff. They were, "You need to figure that out." So I stopped perming my hair, and then I just got it pressed, and I remember talking to one of my hairdressers in Atlanta once I transferred to Spelman. She was like, you know, "Why did you perm your hair in the first place?" I said, "I don't know. It's just what happened." So then she started showing me how I can do things without perming my hair, so then I was straightening it, right?Zach: Right.Kethlyn: But again, that's just what I did. Fast forward, move to Australia, and I didn't realize how humid Australia was, but I also didn't think about it. I don't know where I was in my mind, right? But I did not consider the fact that there were not gonna be many African-Americans--forget African-American, people of different types of color, right, over there in different parts of the world.Zach: Right, but you have the aboriginals.Kethlyn: Yeah, you do have the aboriginals. They do--they live in specific places, and that's a whole separate podcast conversation, and that is an absolutely an issue in Australia, but I'll have to put a pin in that. But either way, there wasn't a lot of different types of cultures, especially when it came to hair, so I spent a couple months over there just trying to find somebody to even help me with my hair because I didn't know what to do, and, I mean, I had hairdressers come at me with this, you know, fine-toothed comb trying to detangle. I was like, "I don't know what you're doing with that. There is nothing you're gonna do with that on my head, because you're just gonna break it in my hair." And so after about three or four tries of that I just said, "You know what? Forget it, this isn't going to work. Obviously I can't wear my hair straight. I'm gonna have to figure out what it looks like when it's curling. So me and YouTube all day, that's what it was, and one of my favorite, you know, YouTube channels was Natural85, mostly because not only was she making her own products, she made it very easy for me to understand what she was doing. And to be fair, her--I don't have the exact same hair texture she did, right? So I knew I was taking a risk by trying some of the stuff, but I did it anyway, and I made everything. I made the shampoos. I made conditioners. I made gel. I did it all, and because I was in Australia nobody knew what my hair was supposed to look like. I went through this really weird, awkward, "I don't know what my hair is doing" probably for, like, a year and change, and nobody knew any better because they didn't know what it was--people would be like, "Oh, Kethlyn, your hair's so cool." I'm like, "Little do you know I look crazy." But it was--it was definitely liberating, and then once I kind of saw what my hair was doing I was like, "Oh, this is great," right? You know, I could start to see how amazing my hair really is, because it can do all the things. Yeah, sure, I can have it straight, but it can be curly, I can twist it up, I can braid it, I can let it be out, I can [?] it if I want to, and I was like--it was an empowering and inspiring thing for me to just get in there in my scalp and really figure out what was going on. So that's really how my journey came to be with my hair, and it was just an extension of me learning about and embracing my self-confidence and my identity and who I was. It was just another level, right? 'Cause we continue to evolve, right? So this was just another piece of my evolution, connecting more to my hair and my [crown?] in this space, and it was awesome.Zach: It's just incredible for me, Kethlyn, to watch you, 'cause I was like--'cause by the time I saw you, like, you were kind of, like, at the end--not the end, but you were at a different part of your journey when you and I met, right? 'Cause when I met you, you--Kethlyn: Yeah. You mean specifically with my hair and my awareness? Is that what you mean?Zach: Right, right, right. So I saw the glory, but I didn't see all the story--you know, I wasn't there for the story, you know what I'm saying?Kethlyn: Mm-hmm.Zach: And so, like, you know, your hair was all big and stuff. I was like, "Oh, wow. Her hair's just like my wife's. Oh, wow. That's amazing." [?]. That's really what's up. Okay, so now as you've continued forward, you know, let's talk a little bit about some of the business ventures that you're involved in and that you've started kind of, like, as an extension of that. Kethlyn: Sure. So actually, funny enough, when I was in Australia going through this, my best friend Aisha. So Aisha Bates, she went to college with me, she went to Spelman with me, and she came to visit me in Australia. We are--she is definitely my travel partner in crime. So when I was moving to Australia, I mean, she's looking at tickets. She's like, "All right. Well, I'm coming." So she came, and she saw where my hair was at that point in time, and she was like, "You know, Kethlyn, your hair looks great," and I'm like, "Thanks. Honestly, I feel like that this is just the start, and I feel like it's still in this awkward phase, but I'm enjoying figuring this out." Huge caveat here. I had the time, right? It was just my husband and I over there. [?], right? So my hair at that point in time was kind of like my kid. It took a lot of time, so I want to make sure that's clear, because not everybody has all that time to spend, and Lord knows if I had half of what's going on what I do now then it probably would have taken me at least a good 2-3 years to figure it out. So that's just my huge caveat. When she came to visit me, she was like, "You know, I'm gonna try to do this back, you know, in the U.S. Obviously you're having a hard time here 'cause there's nobody, right? And there's no beauty supply stores and no help." So she went back home to Chicago at the time, and she started going through her own journey, and it was struggle, right? She was [?]--she was subscribing to all of the boxes and everything and, you know, just like, you know, a lot of people will tell you, right, they're a product junkie. You know, you open your bathroom cabinet and there's, like, 20 million things in there. And, you know, she remembered--she had a very vivid memory at the time where she went to a beauty school just looking for conditioner. I think she might have gone in there, like, just having washed shampoo out of her head, 'cause she ran out of conditioner. Because, you know, for a lot of people, we use a bottle per condition, depending on how much hair you have, right? And so she walks into the beauty supply store, and, you know, it's a little dingy, a little dark, but whatever. She just needs to get conditioner. And the person who was there supposedly was helping her, right? But who owned the store was really not giving her any information. She was like, "I need some conditioner. This is the type of hair I have," and they're kind of like, "Well, here's the aisle," right? And the aisle has, like, you know, 50 eleven products, and she's like "Which one?" And she started to describe her hair. They had no idea, right? They're like, "There's the aisle," and then before she even leaves the store, you know, they point her towards weave, and she's like, "That's not actually what I want," and, you know, at that moment she really kind of felt something in her spirit. She was like, "This doesn't make any sense, plus I could probably do this better than they can do this. I have all of these products in my cabinet. I could probably sell these to somebody else better than someone else could, because I now understand," so she started Coil Beauty. You know, she--literally she just said, "You know what? Screw it, I'm just gonna do it," and so she created her business. She got a website, all kinds of stuff, right? And she was a couple months into her journey, and we were talking about it. One of the things that she mentioned is she was like, "You know, the problem is I don't know where to begin. I know I have a website, [?], these are all the things that I'm doing, but I'm not quite sure, right, if this is really the right way." [?] and all this stuff, so we started--we started vibing off of that, we started talking, and after a while, not only did, you know, what she talking about speak to me--obviously I lived through it, but there was also a part of me that was like, "You know, we could do this much better. Let's just try." So at this point I said, "Listen, I'd love to join you. I'd love to--I'd love to become a part of this journey," and so I joined her as her COO, and at that point in time I was able to not only help find, you know, a brand manager and a product manager to really help us think through this, right, I was able to bring my obviously IT expertise to it to figure out how we wanted to go through this, right? What journey we were gonna take, and it has been a journey of love and frustration and irritation. We have definitely become closer, but the best part about this is that we've created this space for, you know, African-American men and women who are looking for products that are made with them as the primary idea in mind, right? They are made for them. We carry skin care and sunscreen that's made for people with color--you know, with skin of a darker hue, right? We've gotten nail polish, right, with different colors, and it's vegan, right? Because a lot of our skin can be sensitive, right? So why aren't we thinking about that? So we carry vegan nail polishes because it's super important to us. Same thing with lipstick. We have a lipstick brand that literally all they do is make lipsticks for people who want to see bright tones, nude tones for black skin, right? Everything. And once we started digging in--and she really found a ton of different product lines that were made like that. We said, "Well, let's help them get out there. Let's give them a platform." And so, you know, once I joined her vision, it's--you know, the sky has been the limit. So Coil Beauty is definitely, you know, my love child, and I'm so excited and happy that my best friend was wanting to have me along on this journey with her. But, you know, she has definitely brought her vision to life, and I'm out here executing it for her, and we are continuing to grow, and we love it. And so we're always looking for new brands. We're always excited about what people are building. I think eventually we'll probably have a line of our own, but I think one of the best--one of the best things I've seen is, you know, friends, family, people I meet on the street, when they ask me, you know, what color lipstick am I wearing or what kind is it or, you know, what am I putting in my hair, I tell them, and I say, "Oh, by the way, here's where you can buy it." They're like, "I've never heard of this brand before," and then we give them a place to go. So it's been awesome.Zach: That sounds incredible, and that's amazing. And, you know, it's interesting because I think what we don't always consider or think about is that, like, we as people of non-white identity, we exist in a space that was not created inherently with us in mind, and so--Kethlyn: Correct, especially in the beauty space, right? Because beauty standards were European at best, so all of the stores that sell beauty products were aligned to that, and it's only within a recent year, right? Now, mind you, it's 2019, right? So it's only within the recent year that you've started to see more of a push, and that's because we've got people, you know, like Pat McGrath and Rihanna, you know, people who are taking, you know, their stuff and putting it in your face to say "We exist out here, and we're important." Not only that, "We're the ones spending the money." Zach: Right, they're the ones spending the money. We spend the money on these products that don't even--that aren't even good.Kethlyn: That don't even exist. So we're--like, there's no reason why there's not a shopping experience that doesn't have to be so painful. We want it to be fun. I shouldn't have to go into Sephora and it's, like, really hard to find someone to talk to who I can say, "Listen, I am a black woman, and this is what I'm looking for," and they're like, "Oh, yeah. It might be difficult to match--" No. You come to Coil Beauty, what we wanted to do is make it fun. Shopping is still fun. We like to play with makeup. We like to try new hair stuff. We like to see new things, discover new products, where I know when I'm looking at them, all of them were created with me in mind. So why wouldn't I want to do that, right? That's really where it came from.Zach: No, absolutely. That's amazing. No, that's super dope, and I just think again, like, anything we can do to, like, just further affirm, like, our perspective and experiences and, like, validate those needs, 'cause they're real needs. They're real, valid holes and gaps to close, right? And I mean, even, like, in the simple things around, like, Band-Aids. Like, it took me until I was, like, 23, 24 to realize that, "Oh, the color of a Band-Aid is--like, that's white skin," you know what I'm saying? Like, that's not--like, being the default comes with a myriad of privileges, and I think--and, you know, I think, like, any time we can push up against that by just simply creating platforms, avenues, companies, quote unquote movements to affirm our own identity and perspective and experience and affirm those things, like, all the better. So that's amazing. So Kethlyn, look here. Before we get up out of here, do you have any shout-outs? Anybody you want to, you know, speak to? You want to let the--we'll let the air horns go. Anybody at all?Kethlyn: Shout-out my village. My village is awesome. You know, I have--it's a beautiful thing, you know? I think that we have downplayed how important is the village is in general. So for me, between my parents and my friends and my brother and my husband and my kids, you know, these are--you know, these are all different aspects. My mentors, people I work with, my colleagues. Everyone helps shape me as a person and continues to challenge me in all of that wonderful stuff. Obviously I have to shout-out my, you know, business, Coil Beauty, which I'm so excited about, and all the brands that we carry, you know, from Mielle to [?] to Pear Nova. I love all of them. Soultanicals. There's too many to name, right? I could go on forever, but it has--it has been an amazing journey, and I'm excited to see where we go, and my business partner and, you know, the CEO and founder of my company, Aisha Bates, who's also getting married this year--so excited for her.Zach: Aye. Come on, Aisha. Aye.Kethlyn: Right? And I just--honestly, you know, shout-out to you for creating a platform in, you know, Living Corporate, because I think there's always a need to have conversations about everything. Who knows why and where and what type of impact we'll have on each other and who might listen to this and get inspired and do something else or have a question, and please let your listeners know I'm always open to questions and, you know, figuring this whole life thing out isn't easy, especially when it comes to, you know, self-care and self-confidence. It's not--you know, it's not a 20, 30-minute conversation. It's a lifetime worth of experience and challenges and hardships all rolled into lessons learned.Zach: Man, that's so real. And yes, Kethlyn, we're gonna make sure we have all of your contact information as well as Coil Beauty all in the show notes so people can click it and check it out. Now, listen, y'all. Y'all have been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. I've been your host, Zachary Nunn. You know you can follow us on Living Corporate @LivingCorp_Pod on Twitter. Follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then you can find us online at living-corporate.com--please say the dash--or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We have all of the Living Corporates except for livingcorporate.com. So you know what, Australia? So check it out. Not only do y'all need to do the aboriginals right--this is the second time I've said this, and I'm not playing--you need to do the aboriginals right, and you need to go ahead and give us that livingcorporate.com, 'cause somebody over there, Kethlyn, it's, like, they own it. It's, like--not the country, but, like, there's a company over there that's--like, they rent out, like, corporate space, and they call it livingcorporate.com. I'm like, "Come on, y'all can give that up." You know what I'm saying? Kethlyn: Oh, can they? [laughs] That sounds like you need to work on your negotiation skills, is what it sounds like.Zach: [laughs] Me and Ade were, like, terrifed at the thought of, like, how much money that would actually cost. I'm certain that it--there's, like, livingcorporate.com.au. I was like, "Oh, no." So anyway--yeah, they got it on lock, but anyway, thank y'all. You have been listening to Kethlyn White, mentor, entrepreneur, businesswoman, mother, wife, overall dope individual. Peace.