Podcast appearances and mentions of Kevin Heffernan

The Town of Tonawanda has voted down a "road diet" for Colvin Blvd. Kevin Heffernan of GoBike Buffalo joins Joe Beamer to discuss the importance of "road diets", cycling infrastructure around Western New York, and their upcoming SkyRide event happening on July 20th.

Joe Beamer fills in for David Bellavia today. Guest appearances in this episode from Erie County Republican Committee chair Michael Kracker, former congressman Chris Collins, Dr. Marc Epstein, and Kevin Heffernan of GoBike Buffalo.

jQuery(document).ready(function(){ cab.clickify(); }); Original Podcast with clickable words https://tinyurl.com/26a6ezva Contact: irishlingos@gmail.com Former Kerry football manager Mick O Iarbhainisteoir peile Chiarraí Mick O'Dwyer tar éis bháis. Former Kerry football team manager Mick O'Dwyer has died at the age of forty- eight. Tá iarbhainisteoir fhoireann peile Chiarraí Mick O'Dwyer tar éis bháis in aois a ocht mbliana agus ceithre scór. 'Micko' was one of Ireland's greatest sporting figures and won many medals, championships, trophies and awards as a player and manager throughout his life. Duine de mhórphearsana spóirt na hÉireann ab ea 'Micko' agus is iomaí bonn, craobh, corn agus gradam nach iad a bhuaigh sé mar imreoir agus mar bhainisteoir i gcaitheamh a shaoil. He won four All-Ireland championships as a player and eight championships as a pioneering manager of that famous elite team that Kerry had in the seventies and eighties. Ceithre chraobh Uile- Éireann a bhuaigh sé mar imreoir agus ocht gcraobh mar bhainisteoir ceannródaíoch ar an scothfhoireann cháiliúil úd a bhí ag Ciarraí sna seachtóidí agus sna hochtóidí. The Kerry team at that time, led by the Waterford man, were often in footy duels with the great Dublin team led by Kevin Heffernan, games that are deeply engraved and carved in stone for the Gaelic Athletic Association. Ba mhinic na Ciarraígh an uair úd, faoi stiúir fhear an Choireáin, i ndeabhaidh chosbháire le sárfhoireann Bhaile Átha Cliath a raibh Kevin Heffernan ina ceannas, cluichí atá greanta go domhain agus go snoite i gcloch oiris Chumann Lúthchleas Gael. Not counting the All-Ireland Championship, Mick O'Dwyer won the Munster Championship 23 times and the National League eleven times as both a player and manager. Gan Craobh na hÉireann a bhac, bhuaigh Mick O'Dwyer Craobh na Mumhan 23 uair agus an tSraith Náisúnta aon uair déag mar imreoir agus mar bhainisteoir araon. Although he was a staunch Kerryman, his talent was sought after in other counties as well and he was lured by teams that were not performing well – namely, Kildare, Laois, Wicklow and Clare – in the hope that he would turn the malt into ale, even though he was a man who had always abstained from intoxicating drink. Cé gur Ciarraíoch dílis go smior a bhí ann, bhí tóir ar a ardchumas i gcontaetha eile leis agus mealladh é ag foirne nach raibh ag cruthú go maith – mar atá, Cill Dara, Laois, Cill Mhantáin agus an Clár – le súil go ndéanfadh sé leann den bhraich, siúd is go mb'fhear é a staon riamh ón deoch mheisciúil. In fact, Kildare won the Leinster Championship in 1998 and 2000 under the guidance of Mick O'Dwyer and that team reached the All-Ireland final in 1998, when they were beaten by Galway by four goals. Go deimhin, bhain Cill Dara Craobh Laighean i 1998 agus in 2000 faoi lámh stiúrtha Mick O'Dwyer agus chuaigh an fhoireann sin chomh fada le cluiche ceannais Chraobh na hÉireann i 1998, tráth a fuair Gaillimh an ceann is fearr orthu le ceithre chúilín. Mick O'Dwyer made his living as an innkeeper and undertaker in Waterville. Is mar óstóir agus adhlacóir sa Choireán a shaothraigh Mick O'Dwyer a bheatha. His first wife Mary Carmel died in 2012 and he married Geraldine Shields in 2023. Bhásaigh a chéad bhean chéile Mary Carmel in 2012 agus phós sé Geraldine Shields in 2023. He is survived by his sons John, Robbie and Karl. Maireann a chlann mhac John, Robbie agus Karl. He was predeceased by another son, Michael. Bhásaigh roimhe mac eile, Michael. RTÉ News and Current Affairs Nuacht agus Cúrsaí Reatha RTÉ

Kevin Heffernan on Federal Transit Funding Cuts full 563 Tue, 25 Mar 2025 05:47:12 +0000 vAJ5ZqV9mVSaxvbIiQ9U95oCPQAOHEwW news WBEN Extras news Kevin Heffernan on Federal Transit Funding Cuts Archive of various reports and news events 2024 © 2021 Audacy, Inc. News False https://player.amperwavepodcasting.com?feed-l

Paddy Cullen’s name will be forever recalled when the glorious era of Gaelic football of the 1970s is discussed.  He was one of the stars of Kevin Heffernan’s Dublin team of that decade – Kerry’s greatest rivals during that golden time.

Send us a textThis week we talk about Super Troopers from 2001! Our creator profile this week is Brian Cox!https://www.instagram.com/thebonsaimoviecrew/https://twitter.com/bonsai_crewhttps://www.tiktok.com/@thebonsaimoviecrewhttps://discord.gg/8jCPe8T2kT

Pulse of the Nation is a celebration of the GAA's 140 years at the centre of Irish life, from its foundation in November 1884 to the present-day institution that has expanded massively at home and abroad. The book zones in on the greatest players in football and hurling, ranking them one-to-ten, accompanied by profiles, in each of the fifteen positions in both codes. The ‘greatest day' for all 32 counties is explored, along with a trawl through the various competitions, from the All-Ireland championships with their ‘Heartbeat of the Irish Summer' billing to those that were once popular but are no longer in place. Controversies are explored, the changed managerial environment is assessed – including the impact of some of the biggest names from Kevin Heffernan to Mick O'Dwyer, from Brian Cody to John Kiely – and the covers are lifted on the GAA's role in Ireland's social and cultural history, including the growth in popularity of camogie and ladies' football. Written by award-winning sports journalists Martin Breheny and Donal Keenan, this is the ultimate publication for the GAA's 140th anniversary Martin Breheny and Donal Keenan spoke to John Mulligan

Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme take their shoes off again. Steve and Rick get confrontational again. We think Rick was joking. We can't tell is Steve was. Want to see Rick on his headling tour? Goto https://www.punchup.live/rickglassman for cities and tickets [Dallas, Houston, Austin, Seattle, San Diego, and more coming]. Sign up for his NO SPAM mailing list (only give your email and zip code) to find out when he's performing in your city.  RICK GLASSMAN https://www.instagram.com/rickglassman https://www.tiktok.com/@rickglassman https://www.patreon.com/takeyourshoesoff https://discord.gg/Z2v4HT https://www.punchup.live/rickglassman https://www.tysocards.com https://www.rickglassman.com/store BROKEN LIZARD https://brokenlizard.com https://www.instagram.com/heffernanrule https://www.instagram.com/steve_lemmeSupport the show: https://www.patreon.com/takeyourshoesoff

Transportation inequality restricts access to jobs and key services for community members. Go Bike and the Coalition of Economic Justice are two groups that aim to change the system through their transit initiatives and legislative recommendations. On today's show, we welcome Justin Booth, the executive director of Go Bike, Kevin Heffernan, the communications director of Go Bike, and Jamal Davis, a transit rider organizer for the Coalition of Economic Justice. The three sit down with Thomas O-Neil-White to discuss what better transportation safety looks like, and how better access to transportation can be achieved.

GoBike's Kevin Heffernan on what can be improved at area intersections full 481 Thu, 12 Sep 2024 20:48:27 +0000 JMrmh0QA0oQggljCLYN5mnAEnUJCwW6V news & politics,news WBEN Extras news & politics,news GoBike's Kevin Heffernan on what can be improved at area intersections Archive of various reports and news events 2024 © 2021 Audacy, Inc. N

Kevin Heffernan of GoBike Buffalo on car vs. bike crashes

In this season-one-walk-down-memory-lane, the Super Troopers (Steve Lemme and Kevin Heffernan) come by the kitchen to give me my flowers for helping on the movie. They also give me a hand making homemade McGriddles and help me with my branding. Apparently, I need a catchphrase. Follow Kevin Heffernan: https://www.instagram.com/heffernanrules Follow Steve Lemme: https://www.instagram.com/steve_lemme SUBSCRIBE so you never miss a video https://bit.ly/3DC1ICg For TOUR DATES: http://www.bertbertbert.com/tour For FULLY LOADED: https://fullyloadedfestival.com Catch me on NETFLIX For all things BERTY BOY PRODUCTIONS: https://bertyboyproductions.com For MERCH: https://store.bertbertbert.com/ Follow Me! X: http://www.Twitter.com/bertkreischer Facebook: http://www.Facebook.com/BertKreischer Instagram: http://www.Instagram.com/bertkreischer YouTube: http://www.YouTube.com/user/Akreischer TikTok: http://www.TikTok.com/@bertkreischer Threads: https://www.threads.net/@bertkreischer Text Me: https://my.community.com/bertkreischer Homemade McGriddles and Hashbrowns Ingredients: * Potatoes * 1 cup maple syrup * Kosher salt * Black pepper * ½ tsp paprika * Eggs * 1 cup and 2 TBS flour * 2 TBS sugar * 2 tsp baking powder * 1 Cup milk * 2 TBS melted butter * Olive Oil * Ground Sausage Steps: Syrup Crystals 1. Heat syrup over medium heat while stirring until thick then pour onto a chilled plate for syrup to crystalize Hashbrowns: 1. Preheat oven to 350 degrees 2. Rub potatoes with oil and salt then bake for 45 minutes 3. Shred cooked potatoes with box grater and add salt, pepper, paprika and 1 beaten egg 4. Add 2 TBS flour, stirring together, then create ½-inch thick patties 5. Pan fry patties then let them dry on paper towels Sausage Patties: 1. Form patties and fry in a skillet Pancake Buns: 1. Whisk together 1 cup flour, sugar, baking powder and ½ teaspoon salt 2. In a separate bowl, whisk milk, butter, and 1 egg 3. Add dry ingredients to the milk mixture and whisk until it is just combined 4. Crumble the maple crystals into pieces. Cook buns in molds filling up halfway with batter then adding syrup crystals, then topping with batter Eggs: 1. Cook eggs any way Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

GoBike's Kevin Heffernan previews Sunday's Sky Ride

We're back with a special episode before we move into a new series featuring the work of Kevin James. In this new episode, we look back at the Happy Madison Production of Strange Wilderness, featuring a stacked cast including Steve Zahn, Allen Covert, Justin Long, Jonah Hill, Kevin Heffernan, Ashley Scott, Ernest Borgnine, Joe Don Baker, Peter Dante, and many more. Fred Wolf writes and directs this 2008 feature telling the story of a nature show that seeks to find a Sasquatch to save their failing TV show. Join us as we chat about this lost comedy with friend of the podcast, Bryan Connolly. 

Meet Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme, two fifths of the funniest comedy troupe in America called Broken Lizard! They are responsible for hilarious films such as Beerfest, Super Troopers, Super Troopers 2 and the tv show Tacoma FD. Don't miss Craig, Kevin and Steve just straight up riffing for an hour, laughs guaranteed, EnJOY! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

I've been a television writer for the past 27 years. While I've written on some amazing shows, the work that I'm most proud of is my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It's the funniest, it's the deepest, and it's the one that will hit you hardest in the heart. These are the deeply personal, true stories of an awkward, sensitive man searching for the things that are most important: identity, love, forgiveness, and redemption. It's available now for your reading pleasure.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/A Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraA Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/bookFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Yeah, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is because you sold 'em the rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving them any creative input at all when the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to What the Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about the podcast where we explore art, creativity, and writing. Oh, it's a big announcement today, Phil. Phil's back, big dayPhil Hudson:Back. Happy to be back. Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Big day. We're finally building up. This has been a long project. Phil book, my book, A Paper Orchestra Drops or dropped if you're hearing this. It's available, it's, it's alreadyPhil Hudson:Dropped. It's available yesterday, so go get it now.Michael Jamin:It's called a paper orchestra and it's a collection of personal essays. If you're a fan of David Sedaris, I think of it as David Sedaris meets Neil Simon. And this has been my passion project for years. I've been working on this and I'm very excited to put it out in the world. As you can get it on print, you can get it on audiobook, you can get it as ebook, however you consume your books, and you can get it everywhere. You can go get it on michael jamin.com. You can find it on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble or Audible for the audio audiobook. Anywhere, anywhere you get Apple. If you want to get the ebook, it's everywhere, Phil. It's everywhere.Phil Hudson:It's like you got a real publishing deal except you didn't.Michael Jamin:Well, I'm doing it myself,Phil Hudson:And we'll go into that. I want people to understand you chose to self-publish this at this point, but that's not how we started. And we've talked a bit about that when we changed the podcast title and we talked a bit about it. We're talking about your live shows, but I think this is like, let's celebrate Michael Jamin a little bit today because you're always talking to people to build the mountain, to climb. You are now at the top of that mountain, and I imagine you're looking over and saying, oh crap, look, that other peak there I've got to get to now.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I already am. Yeah, for sure. Lot of it. And I hope this inspires a lot of you. There's so many people who are like, I want to sell my screenplay, or I want to help me break in, help me, help me. But there's so much that you can do. So unempowering disempowering, you're basically hoping that someone else is going to make your career, buy my script, make my movie. But there's so much that you can do on your own, and you may think it's more work because you're doing it yourself, but it's actually less work because now you don't have to count on someone else to do it for you. You can stop begging, you can stop worrying about all the rejection because when you're selling your scripts or trying to, you're going to get rejected by 99 out of a hundred people. But if you just build it yourself, there's so much you can do. The year we live in, it's so empowering. Everyone has a phone and you can shoot on your phone, you can make a movie. Everyone has a miniature movie studio. There's so much we all can do and on our own. And so I'm just going to share a little bit about the journey that I've been on when I started writing this book.So basically this started well over four years ago, maybe five years ago. I told my wife that I was just at a point in my life where I felt a little disheartened by, a little bored by what I was writing in television because when I write for tv, and I'm very grateful to have a job and a career, but I'm always writing what someone is paying me to write. And I'm very rarely writing what I want to write. I'm paying what someone pays me to write or what I can sell, but that's not how I started writing when I was in college and in high school. I just wanted to write what I wanted to write. And so I went for a walk with my wife one day and I was like, I have a really bad idea. I'm thinking of writing a collection of personal essays, which is what David Seras writes. And I love his writing. I've read everything. He's written multiple times. You show him your card, you got a card back there, don't you? Oh yeah. Yeah. He actually, I sent him a piece of fan letter, a fan mail three years ago. But I've read him so much. I knew that he would respond. He talks about, I knew he would respond. It just took him three years to respond, but it was very kind of him.So yeah, so I started writing. I wanted to write this project. I wanted to write what I want to write. I wanted to tell stories the way I wanted to tell them without network notes, without a partner, without. I just wanted to see what I can do on my own without having someone telling me what to do or breathing down my back or saying, no, it should be this or that. What can I do? And so I told that to Cynthia and she said, that's a great idea. And I said, but you don't understand even if I sell it, I'm not going to make a lot of money from it and it's going to take me years and years to do. She goes, you got to do it anyway, because if you do, you will find yourself in the process. And I was like, okay.And at the time, I was really in a bad place. I was just very upset about stuff mentally. I was in a bad place. I was like, okay, I'll start writing. And that's what I did. I remember I had listened to a lot of David C's audio books, but I had never read him. So I was like, I better read him. And then I bought a bunch of books and I read the first one. I remember I was lying in bed. I was reading the first book and I'm about halfway through and I'm thinking, where's this guy going? What's he doing here? Where's he going with this? And then I got to the end of the piece and the ending was such a wonderful ending. I was like, oh my God. And I almost threw the book across the room. I was, I was so mad.I was like, this is going to be so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be easy or natural, not easy, but just considering I'm a writer, I didn't think it would be that difficult. So then I just started studying him and I got all his books and I read them multiple times over and over again, and the more I read, I was just trying to look for patterns and trying to learn from him. And that kind of just began, that was the beginning of this journey just to study, study what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:You're constantly telling people to study their craft, and you talk about story and story structure. You have a course on that. Most of your content you put on social media is dedicated to helping people understand that your webinars are often about resetting people's expectations about what a writing career looks like and helping them focus on what really matters. And the undertone that I've witnessed over the last two, two and a half years of this process with you of at least starting the podcast and helping with social media and that stuff, it's all based under the reality or the realization that creativity is worth doing just to be creative and that there's value in that process beyond monetary pay or paychecks.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, for sure. When I first started writing these stories, the first two, first several were not very good. I was writing in David Sari's voice because I didn't know how else to do it. The ironic thing, as a TV writer, I'm always writing in someone else's voice. I'm writing in the character's voice or the voice of the show, but this is my voice, and this is the first time I actually had to do that. And so because I'm a good mimic and because I had just read so much of him, I was kind of writing, I was kind of the writer like him, and I thought the first two stories were good. And then I set it down for a couple of weeks and I read it with fresh eyes and I thought, oh, this is terrible. It felt like a cheap knockoff. It felt like me pretending I was him and I hated it.I threw all those stories out and then I had to figure out, okay, what's my voice? And that was a long discovery. But the reason why, this is a long way of saying this, those first several stories I wrote, I don't know, maybe six or seven stories, and it just take months and months. At one point, I reach out to my agent. I'm at a very big prestigious Hollywood agency. They do. They represent me in film and tv, and I reached out to my agent. I told him what I was working on. I said, Hey, do we have a book agency, a book department? He said, of course we do. What do I know? I tell him what I was doing. I said, can you hook me up with one of your agents? He goes, sure. So I reach out to their agents. This guy's in New York now, he doesn't have to take, just so people know, I told 'em what I was doing. He doesn't have to take me on as a client, but he has to take the call.I'm banging them. They got to take the call. He doesn't have to bring me on to represent him in books though. And so I told him what I was doing. He goes, oh, that sounds interesting. Send me what you have. I go, well, I only have a handful of stories, but I'll send you what I have. So I emailed them to him. I never heard back. I didn't hear back for probably six months at this point. And I'm still writing more stories. It doesn't matter, whatever. I'm thinking maybe he read it, he didn't read it, he doesn't like it, whatever. I'm not going to stop writing them though. And I just kept on writing all these stories. Finally, six months later, he reaches out to me. He goes, I'm so sorry it took me so long to read these. I love them. Let's get on the phone and talk about them.I was like, sure. He goes, and he was like, when we spoke, he said, he said, do you have any more? Because he only read whatever. I sent him maybe six stories, and I go, as a matter of fact, yeah, I'm almost done with the collection. Give me another couple of weeks and I'll send you the entire collection. So at that point, but again, I'm writing it because I want to write it. I want to do this. I'm not thinking about how much money I'm going to make. I'm thinking about the process of writing and figuring out how to learn. I had to relearn how to write because I'm a TV writer who now is writing books. There's a little difference. There's some difference to it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. A couple things here. I love the narrative, and I don't want to interrupt the narrative, but I think there's some topics that are coming up here. Is it okay if we just dive into those for a second? Yeah, please. Okay. You talked about David Sedaris and you were reading this and you're like, where is this going? And then it ended in this way. That was almost upsetting because it was so beautiful and so well done. What I'm hearing you say is something you talk about regularly on the podcast and in your social media content, which is the way you unpack your story is the job of being a writer. And that's almost effectively what I'm hearing is that's your craft and your tone and your style. You still have to understand story structure and you understand these things. But the unpacking, would you say that that's an example of what you're talking about when you say how you unpack something matters?Michael Jamin:Yes, and the thing is, I've really tried to study him. I think he's the gold standard. I think he's a master, a beautiful writer. There's certain things I was able to learn and certain things I was not able to unpack. And so I learned a lot from him for sure. But some things still remain a mystery to me from how he writes. I can't see through it, and I'm good at seeing through some stuff. So take that for what it's worth. I do remember thinking, I had long conversations with my wife when we were about this. I didn't want people to think that the book was written by a sitcom writer. I wanted it to be funny and dramatic, but I didn't want people to say, oh, this guy's, I wanted it to be a little smarter than just a sitcom, I guess. And so I was very self-conscious about that.And we had long conversations of Is this art? How do I make art? What is art? How do I do this? So it feels like art and what I really came, it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and it came from much of what I learned about how to do this. I learned not from writers, David is probably the only writer who I really studied a lot for this book, but I learned a lot from watching interviews with musicians, ironically, about how they approached their art. And I found that to be more helpful than listening to other writers. And one of the really interesting things, I was like, well, we know there's a market for what David Sedera says. We know people like what he does, so why am I trying to reinvent things? Why not just kind of do what he's doing? And there's two reasons why not.One, I'm not him. I can't be him ever. And that's almost the tragedy of the whole thing is I want to write, this guy can write, but I never ever will. So you're going to have to let go of that, which is almost tragic. But the other thing is, it's my responsibility not to, as an artist, if you want to make art, then add, you have to bring new to the equation. You have to bring new, and that actually, I picked up, I believe I picked up from an interview with watching Pharrell talk about music.Phil Hudson:That's awesome.Michael Jamin:Which is basically he's saying, listen, your job is to bring something new to the conversation, is to put the youness into it. Whatever is you, that's what you have to put into it. And that was very reassuring to hear it from him. I was like, oh, okay, now I can lean into me.Phil Hudson:This resonates with me. And what I wrote down here is that you can look outside of your space for inspiration. And I think this again ties to the fact that creativity is self, it's for the self. Rick Rubin, the producer, you're familiar with him. I think most people are at this point. I was just watched a clip of him in an interview and he said, I have never made music for a fan. When you do, it's bad when I make it for myself or when I do it because it's something that I like that resonates with the listener. And would you say that's what you're doing here is you're writing this for you in your tone because it's the best pure expression of your art?Michael Jamin:Well, yes, yes and no. Some of it, it's very truthful. It's very painfully truthful. It's very intimate. I go there. I think that's what makes it interesting. I think that's my job as a writer. It's my obligation as a writer is to figure out what the truth is and figure out how to tell it. But I also keep the audience in mind, and maybe that's just because of my background as a team writer.Phil Hudson:Yeah, you're an entertainer to a degree because that's what you do, is you want people to tune in for 23, 25 minutes per week, have a good time, forget their worries, and then leave having gotten something from what you've done. Well,Michael Jamin:It's also,Phil Hudson:But I don't know, that negates what Rick Rubin's talking about because it's like when you read, when you're putting out here, do you feel like you are getting the same value out of it that you would hope a reader would, or are you hoping the reader gets more value out of it than what you're getting out of it?Michael Jamin:Well, I don't know. I mean, first I keep them in mind. I picture my reader with a remote control in their hand. That's just become from me, a TV writer. So how do I make sure this story is compelling so that they want to turn the page? But I do keep them in mind in terms of how do I make this story not about me, but about all of us. And I think that's important because this has the danger of becoming very self-indulgent. These are true stories from my life, but I tell them in a way with art, so that you really feel like you're reading a character in a book. I am a character. The character of Michael is in this story, so it's not like, and then this happened, then this happened. I'm not telling you how I broke into Hollywood, although there are stories about that. I'm really telling you about the stories. These are stories of rejection. These are stories of triumph. There are stories there meant to be, the details are mine, but the stories are all of ours. So that's how I feel I'm telling them is like, okay, so that you can totally relate to this so you can feel, okay, I had something very similar and me explaining it to you helps you understand it, hopefully.Phil Hudson:And not to jump ahead, I saw you last year for my birthday, do a performance. My wife and I came out and there's a story, was it, is that what it's called?Michael Jamin:The Goul? Yeah, thePhil Hudson:Goul. Still a year later, 13 months later, still thinking about that goul because as a new father and then hearing your perspective as a father with children leaving the home, yeah, there's a lot of beauty and regret in that story that is paralleling the decisions I'm making now with my children who are young and what I want my life and my relationship to be like with them. So yeah, I think you absolutely check that box. You said, I've heard you say before, you want people to leave and sit there and think about it, have been impacted by what's happening. And I can tell you that that's been very true for me.Michael Jamin:That's been my, because, so Phil came to, I performed this, and if you want to see me perform, you can go to In Your Town if I travel with it, michael jamin.com/upcoming. But that's one of the stories. That's actually one of the stories I gave out to reviewers to review the book and people, they like that story. But yeah, my goal when I write any story, and hopefully I achieve this, is people say, I couldn't put it down. That seems to be the nicest thing you could say about a book. I couldn't put it down. I want you to put the book down. I want you to get to a chapter and just be so moved at the end of it that you're not ready to move forward. You just want to sit in that emotion for however long it takes you, whatever it is, just sit in it.I don't want you to, it's not meant to be consumed that way. And one of the things that I tried to achieve, I made, we did an audio book and I hired whatever. I partnered with Anthony Rizzo, who's the composer I worked with on Marin. He's a really talented writer composer. And so for the audio book, I would send him each chapter. And then I said to him, he's like, what do you want? I go, no, no, no. I want you to read this piece, interpret it. Tell me what it sounds like to you in music. What's your version of, he's an artist. What does this sound like to you in music? And that's what he came back with. And so at the end in the audiobook, if you prefer to consume it that way, at the end of the story, we go right into the music and it forces you, or not forces you, but allows you to sit in it. It allows you to sit in whatever motion it is. The music carries you out for 30 seconds or however long it is, just so now you can experience it in music, which I love that I just love. I thought he brought so much to the audiobook. I'm so grateful he hopped on board.Phil Hudson:I normally listen to audiobooks at 1.5 to 1.75 speed, and then the music kind of throws that off. This is one I would absolutely listen to in real time. JustMichael Jamin:Slow it down. Yeah, down,Phil Hudson:Slow it down and just sit in it and give yourself the treat and the opportunity to sit in that. I think very often we are constantly looking for the next thing or to get ahead or checking off stuff on our list. And that's not what this book is. This book is a sit in it, allow yourself to feel it. Think about how you can apply it. There's just some beautiful life lessons in here as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I hope so. That was my goal.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I think it's achieved. And I've talked to several people in your advanced reader group who feel the same way.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:And you've got fans in there, but these are people who are very sincere with their compliments as well. And there's some great compliments coming your way from that advanced group.Michael Jamin:And so thank you. Honestly, I like to do more of this kind of writing, and this is, to me is very fulfilling at this stage of my career. To me, it's more exciting doing this than writing a TV show that might be seen by millions of people writing something that can make someone just make you laugh, but then feel something. It's funny, I have sort of a recipe and I'm wondering, people can see through it at some point, but I don't really care. My recipe is if I can get you to laugh in the beginning, I just want you to open up. Let's just start laughing about stuff and it start, most of my stories start out very fun and light, and then you kind of relax into, oh, this is going to be fun. And you let your guard down, and as soon as your guard comes down, then I hit you as really hard, as hard as I can with something emotional where I talk about, and because you're in my writing course, you'll know where this happens, where this happens structurally. And then at that point, once I hit him in the heart, there's no point in being funny anymore. The humor has already achieved its goal, which is to you to get your guard down. And soPhil Hudson:Engaged, paying attention, it's something, some advice, I know it's standard advice, but it advice used specifically gave me a long time ago, which is it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh, and so you're almost checking the box on the humor part, so they're completely engaged and engrossed in what's going on, which is why the emotional impact of the reality of this story hits so hard later. Yeah,Michael Jamin:There were times I thought maybe I'm being too funny here in the beginning, I'm not even sure, but because I didn't want any of this to feel silly, I just wanted it to be fun until, but yeah, tonally, there's, I guess some stories are a little lighter than others for sure.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's good stuff. Going back to what you're telling though, in this narrative of how we got to where you are, you said that you reached out to your agent who got you in touch with the literary agent effectively for books and publishing, and a lot of people, myself included, might be tempted to submit to the agent and then wait and do nothing. And you made a point of saying you continued to write. And the question when he came back is, do you have more? So a lot of people, I think the mistake is that they're putting all their eggs in the basket. And we see this all the time with the questions on the webinars for the podcast, for your live q and as, when you do them on social media, whatever it is, how do I get an agent? How do I get a representative? How do I get a showrunner attached? How do I do this? And it's like you say you're putting all the power in the hands of somebody else and you're saying that's the wrong thing to do. And because you didn't, because you're writing for yourself to do the job, and you didn't wait for one person to make your career, you were even more successfulMichael Jamin:In getting, and he doesn't care. I mean, he's a good guy and everything, but he doesn't care if I achieve this. What does he care? All he wants is, is he going to make money from this? And that's fair enough. He has to make money, so my dream is my dream. I have to make my dream happen. And so yes, then turned it into him. We sent it out, and then the feedback I got was, Hey, this is really great, but platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? It means you need to have a social media following. I said, really? It's not good enough that it's well written. No, not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago. But today the industry publishing has changed as much as Hollywood has changed, it's really can they sell it? And now it's sold on social media. You're expected to have that.And I was a little upset about that. I was like, why can't it just be good enough? Everyone loved it, but platform drives acquisition. I said, all right, well, how big of a social media following do I need? This is two and a half years ago. And I couldn't get a straight answer that no one really knew, but especially in the space of They had a good point, Phil. They really did. It's not like this is not a novel. These are personal essays. But like I said, they're told story-wise, not if you didn't know me. You'd be like, oh, this is a nice story. But it just so happens that it's true. But the point that they made was, or maybe I made it with myself. I think that's what it was. I was like, if you were to go to Barnes and Noble and my book was on the shelf, why would someone buy it if they don't know who I am?Because there's true stories. Who cares if you don't know who I am? And that's a fair thing to ask. Why would someone pick it off the shelf? Now, here's the thing, as I was arguing with myself, but here's the thing. No one goes to Barnes and Nobles anymore. That's not where people get books. I mean, they exist, but most people just get it online. Most of the books are sold online. So why do I need to be in Barnes and no, I don't. I need, I mean, I can be, but it's not necessary. And so I was like, okay. And then I was like, well, if I build the platform, if I get a big following and people want to support me and buy the book curious and they like what I have to say and they think I'm talented, great. But then why do I need a publisher?What do they bring to the equation, honestly? Oh, they can get your book in barge. Oh, well, great, but no one goes there anymore. So what exactly did they do? And by the way, they get most of the money. I'm like, okay, well, they help you design the book cover, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is. You sold 'em the Rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving any creative input at all? When the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? I remember at one point, because I had talked to other people in the publishing world and they thought your title could be better. It's called the Paper Orchestra. I was like, yeah, but I think I like the title, but no one really knows what it means. And I'm like, yeah, you got a good point. No one knows what it means untilPhil Hudson:I remember this conversation,Michael Jamin:And then it was ironically, I had a long talk with my daughter. It was on my birthday, and we went for a long walk, and she's so smart, and she says, well, why are she said to me, I thought the whole point of the book was for you to just write what you wanted to write without anyone giving you No. I said, yeah. She goes, well, why are you changing the title? I said, yeah, why am I changing the title? Why am I second guessing myself? So I did it my way. I did a hundred percent my way, and this is my book.This is my expression without having anyone telling me it's wrong, it's different. It should be this or that. Along the way. I got to say, Phil, it's so frustrating for, it's so frustrating to hear this kind of stuff, I think, but it's like I understand what people want. I want this. I want a complete creative expression. And to me, that's the satisfaction. Whether I sell a hundred copies or one copy or a million copies, it's the process that I got so much joy out of. And I think that's what people will enjoy. I mean, it's like I had so many agents, even afterwards, they find me on social media, they reach out to me, go, and I tell 'em what my book is, and they go, oh, that sounds nice, but if you write a young adult novel, I can sell that for you. Or if you write a how to book, we can sell that. I'm like, if I don't want to write those, this is what I want to write. This is exactly what I wanted to write. You got to do it yourself.Phil Hudson:That's right. And that's what you tell people. You got to basically make your mountain, create your mountain, and then climb your mountain.Michael Jamin:And all of it's doable. It's just going to take a long time, but it's going to take less time to build your mountain and climb it than it's for you to beg someone to make your life.Phil Hudson:And begging someone to make your life means you owe them and they have power over you.Michael Jamin:And it's also, but you're going to hear no so many times you're going to get so much rejection. Who needs it? Why not just put all that creative energy into what you want to achieve instead of why are you wasting your energy hitting people up on LinkedIn? What's the point of that?Phil Hudson:This is something in business I'm bad about because we've talked about it before. I own a digital marketing agency. That was my career path before I moved to LA, and I still operate that agency, and we do nothing on LinkedIn. And I was like, well, you got to be on LinkedIn. That's where the businesses are. And I was like, I get that Our business is almost purely word of mouth, and it's because I'm not out shaking my can, asking people to put money in it. We stand on the value of the work that we do, and then that's referral work that goes out to other people. And that's not the way to grow to a business that's going to end up on the New York Stock Exchange or end up something you can trade. But what it is, it's a lifestyle business that creates a way for me to do what you're doing, which is to make my art, to be creative, to live my life the way I want without having to be beholden to somebody else dictating what I do with my time and my hours. And what I'm hearing you say is it's effectively the same thing for your book is had you gone with an agent who sold your book to a big publisher, you would now be mandated to do things in a certain way and you would've lost all of the same creative control. And it almost sounds like it would spoil the whole experience for you.Michael Jamin:It's hard to say. I mean, in the beginning, that's how I thought I had to do it. And then I realized I didn't have to who it could have been a great experience. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know, but I also know it's not necessary even a little bit, not in today's world. And if I do another book, maybe I will use a publisher, maybe not. I don't know. But the point is, if I do, they're going to pay me for it. You know what I'm saying? This first one's on me. I have to prove myself. Sure. If they want in on Michael Jamin, they're going to have to pay me or else, because now the power has shifted.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I can't remember if we've ever talked about this, but this came up in conversation this week's Kevin Hart, where he worked, traveling, doing standup comedy, getting names, getting emails after shows, building a fan base. And then when he got his first big deal, they were like, all right, and then we'll need you to send this out to your email list. And he said, it's a million dollars. And they said, what? He says, you didn't work to build that list. You don't get my people and mine. I put in the blood, sweat and tears on this. You did not. You're going to pay me for that blood, sweat and tears.Michael Jamin:And what happened?Phil Hudson:They paid him everyMichael Jamin:Time they paid him. Yeah. Pay the man and a lot of this, and you've helped out as well with enormously, just in terms of the podcast and help me with marketing and all that stuff and the website. Yeah, but it's still one of these things. Build it first. This is the order in which you need to do things when you make it first and then people will join in. People will want a piece of that. They either want to help you or they'll want part of your success or whatever. It's not the other way around. It's not, Hey, help me make my dream. No one wants to help you make your dream. No one cares about your dream. You build it first and then they'll come out of the woodwork and decide whether they want a piece of you or not, because they can make some money off of it.But it's so much more empowering when you look at it that way. It's like, Hey, I have something to offer here. I have something great. I'm not even offering it. I have something great here. Do you want a piece of it or not? And the answer, they know, okay, that's fine. I will do it without you. But it's the other, you know what I'm saying? It's not like, Hey, help me make it out. Hey, help me. Then you're begging. It's the other way around. I have something great and I'm going there. I'm doing it with or without you. Up to you, you can decidePhil Hudson:It's field of dreams, right? If you build it, they will come. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You got to build it first though.Phil Hudson:You got to build it first. You have to do the crazy thing. You have the lofty idea. You got to go make the baseball field in the middle of your corn field in Nebraska orMichael Jamin:Wherever. And people say, though, I don't know how to do that. But if you are a creative person and you want to get into a creative field, writing or screenwriting, whatever, be creative, prove how creative you are, you'll figure it out.Phil Hudson:Figure it out. Yeah, go cut your teeth. I think it's this metaphor for life though, which is we have to do things that are difficult and hard and things that we don't enjoy because that's how we learn and grow and get better. And redefining failure I think was a big deal for me because failure was something I just tried to avoid at all costs, to the point that I would do nothing if I thought I wasn't going to be 100% successful. So imagine doing that, trying to be a writer when writing is rewriting, you're not going to be okay the first 10, 15 drafts or whatever. Oh, god. And so if you have this fear of failure and what is failure? So redefining what these things means is very important. And when you start looking at failure, a lot of very smart people have said that failure is just the fastest way to get to success. You just have to fail as fast as possible so that you can achieve your goal. And it's just learning what not to do. And so many quotes about that.Michael Jamin:That's one of the things. Another thing that I picked up from another musician, David Bowie, as I was trying to figure out what art is, and he said something very similar. He said, art is basically is taking something from within yourself and figuring out a way how to express it so that you can help understand yourself and the world around you. And he goes, but to make something really great, you have to swim in water. That's just a little too deep to stand in. And that's when something great can happen. When you're in a little over your head, that's when the art is made. And it's the same thing what you're saying. It's like you got to do things that are out of your comfort zone, and that's how you achieve things.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So social media, being a public persona, subjecting yourself to just some of the most crazy things you've told me people say to you and your comments and your dms and just horrible things. HorribleMichael Jamin:Internet is horrible. I don't get a ton of hate, but I do get hate. But that's a double-edged sword of doing this. But also then it was also, okay, I put myself on social media as a screenwriter, as a TV writer, and here I'm sharing my expertise working in the business for 27 years, but I also have show you that I have to show you that I'm actually good at what I do, so that I try to make my posts funny. Or sometimes I just do a post. It's all funny so that you feel like, okay, maybe this guy can write as opposed to just me saying, I can write, showing you that I can write. So there's that kind of bridge I have to cross.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The exercise of putting yourself out there though is just something you were hesitant to for years and years and years. I think since I met you, I've been telling you, you need to be on social media. You need to grow a social media following, and it was just not your thing. And what I appreciate about your story with this book is you care so much about this book and doing this thing for yourself that you're willing to do the uncomfortable, which is be public facing person who is willing to put yourself out there almost every single day for two and a half years despite what anybody says, because that is what is required for you to make sure that you are able to have the maximum impact as you can with this thing that's so important to you. And that is something most people aren't willing to do.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book.Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show. I mean, I have people who go on social and things. I go on social media. There's a lot of influencers that I follow or whatever, usually experts in their field, but many of them, or most of them don't use their real name. They don't because they want that anonymity, and I don't blame them, but I can't do that. If I'm talking about my book, you got to know what my name is. And so I end everything is Michael Jamon writer. That's scary to put your real name out there. And so there's that as well.Phil Hudson:This is scary in a real way too. I'm aware of at least two police reports we've had to file for people who've been insane.Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's some insane people out there, but really insane and nothing too dangerous. I had to report,Phil Hudson:But its hateMichael Jamin:Speech. You still have to reportPhil Hudson:It. It speech, it's hate speech. It's threatening. It's angry language, and the things that you're talking about are wild. They're not invoking it. One of the compliments I think you get for people is how you respond to criticism. It's like you could destroy people because you have that capacity.Michael Jamin:I could do that with my words. You'rePhil Hudson:The definition of a good man, and the fact that you are dangerous with your words and you choose not to use it,Michael Jamin:I would believe me, I would tear them apart and make them look silly, but it doesn't help me any. It doesn't actually help me. So I just, I'm getting there rolling in the dirt with them, and then we both get dirty. So for the most part, I just ignore, but I also talk to other creators how they handle the same thing. It's this new internet fame. It's a strange territory.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Well, we were just talking earlier today about how you went. Did you go into a Kinko's or something to PrinceMichael Jamin:And stuff? Yeah, I went to a Kinko's. I got spotted in the wild.Phil Hudson:Yeah, somebody knew who you were and it was more common. Shout out Chris. Chris on the podcast, but it's like the first time, I remember the first time that really happened to you. I remember you told me You'll never believe what happened. I was out in this place and somebody shotted Michael Jamon Ry from their car. It's just a weird thing.Michael Jamin:It's just odd. Yeah.Phil Hudson:I've had a taste of that through association, and I've talked about it on the podcast as well, where we went to our wrap party for Tacoma FD season four, and one of the assistant editors comes up and he goes, dude, I got to tell you, my wife works in the industry and she's an accountant, and she brought over her accountant friend, and they were like, oh, what Jody do you work on? And he was like, I work on Tacoma Dean. And she's like, oh, I listen to Phil Hudson's podcast.Michael Jamin:Oh,Phil Hudson:Wow. And he's like, I didn't even know you had a podcast. I was like, ah. It's a strange feeling. And then later that night, one of our accountants, it must be accountants who listened to our podcast, they brought someone over to the party's like, yeah, listen to your podcast. I was like, it feels weird. And I'm not even Michael Jammin. I'm just a guy who's on there.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's strange to put yourself out there like that, but you're doing it,Phil Hudson:But you're doing it.Michael Jamin:I'm doing it, but I also, yeah. And also, listen, if you want to know more about me, then you'll definitely read the book. The book is very vulnerable, but it's still weird. I don't know. I felt like, well, David Sedaris can do it. I can do it. But I also, I think that's interesting about, I do think that's interesting about this kind of writing is that as opposed to writing a novel that you're making up and you are making up these characters, I feel like the stakes are higher when you're reading something like my book, because you, oh, this character's real, and he's really going through, it's not like when you're reading a fake a movie or watching a movie or reading a book, a novel and the character dies or whatever gets injured or something. Part of you can still say, okay, it's still made up. It's not real. That's just an actor going through something and the actor's pretending. But when you read this, you go, oh, this is real. This is a real person. This is not made up. And I do feel like it raises the stakes, and in some way, I feel like this is my answer to ai, to what if everyone's worried that AI is going to take writer's jobs? This is my answer to that, which is, AI cannot do this. AI is not capable of telling a story about me. That's real. I have to do that.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Someone just yesterday I saw someone posted that asking AI to write about, to write about something is having them listen to a thousand hours of people talking about pizza and then asking it to make a pizza is just like, it's not going to come out. It's just not going to come out.Michael Jamin:I get a lot of people in my comments and they'll say things when I talk about ai, you clearly don't understand ai, and I want to say, you clearly don't understand writing. That's what you don't understand. Yep.Phil Hudson:It's the human condition. I mean, we've been talking about this forever. That's what Star Trek is, right? It's data figuring out what it means to be human. The thing that comes to mind for me is this, for random clip, I saw probably when it was airing real time in the early nineties, and my dad was watching it and it's data talking about how, oh, boy, time flies. And he couldn't understand the expression, time flies. And so he sat and watched an egg boil over and over and over again. He's like, it takes exactly eight minutes and 32 seconds or egg to boil because he couldn't understand or comprehend it from the machine side. And so it's all about that. Even machines want to be more human. And rioting is exploring the human condition. Yeah,Michael Jamin:That's right. That's right. So if you want to understand yourself and you write, and then to me getting back to the book, that's what this process was figuring out who I am, figuring out who I, and it's so interesting because all these patterns kept on emerging. I got write a story and I'd get halfway through it, and I'm thinking, why would this character, and let's say this story is something that I did when I was 11 or whatever, why would this character do that? Why would I have done that? And a lot of times I just didn't know, why would I do that? It didn't make sense. Then I'd write something, I'd go, no, that doesn't feel true. That feels like the TV version. What's the real version? And then I'd have to think of another memory from that time. And I think, oh, I wonder if those two are related. And now I'm figuring out who I am. And I'm like, oh, that's why I would do that. That makes sense. Which is so interesting to finally be able to understand yourself at the end of this book. I'm like, oh, I know who I am.Phil Hudson:In some of my research for one of the pilots I wrote about special operators in the Seal team, six Delta fours, green Berets, army Rangers. I was listening to a bunch of podcasts, and one of 'em was talking about this principle that your level of trauma or your level of struggle is the same as mine. Even if something I've been through has been more horrific. From an objective perspective, our perception of my worst trauma and your worst trauma are equally impactful. And I'm wondering, we had very different childhoods, and we've talked a bit about mine and a little bit about yours, but does that process of exploring, why would you do things as a child? Is that healing for you?Michael Jamin:And it was healing and helpful. A lot of these stories, I feel, are apologies to various people I've heard over my life, and it's not written to be an apology, but when you're telling the truth, it's an apology. When you're acknowledging your end of it, it's an apology. And so I'm not writing it, Hey, please forgive me. It's just about the truth. And so, yeah, I really, it's so helpful, and hopefully this is what people will respond to. When you read the book, you go, oh, man, yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for putting to words what I couldn't do because I'm not a writer. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's the stuff that stays with us, right? It's a metaphor for things we're going through. And I think one of the most impactful lessons I learned in film school was the cool job effect.Michael Jamin:What is that?Phil Hudson:So it was this Russian director who showed the same shot of a man, and then he put it against a starving child or a child in a casket or food, or a beautiful woman. And at the end, everyone came up. And that actor was incredible. When he looked at the food, I could feel his desire for food. When he looked at that girl, I could see the pain of her death. And when he saw the woman, I could feel the lust. It's the exact same shot of the same man. And it's the subjective projection that one puts onto art that allows you, it's an unconscious way for you to make sense of your world and import what your experience is in on something, which is why art has always been a part of humanity. It's why it's something that we have always, I think, sought after. It's not entertainment from a sedation perspective where we're trying to avoid it. Sometimes it's that, but very often the things that impact us and mean something, they are things that we need to experience because they make sense. They allow us to make sense of our world.Michael Jamin:Right. That's a good point that you point that out. Yeah. It's like I feel like I've played a part of that in writing sitcoms sometimes, and there's a place for it. You'll come home after a long day, you just want to thrown out and laugh and really not be challenged and not go there, but for this piece. And there's nothing wrong with that. People want to be entertained. But for this,Phil Hudson:People still learn from that too, that people need that, and it serves a role too.Michael Jamin:They need that. But for this, I didn't want that. I wanted to go way deeper than that. I wanted to because I wanted to feel something. Because my contention as a comedy writer, and I know this is true, is that when you write that humor, write something funny. Or if you go, sometimes you'll go see a standup who's hilarious, but then you leave and you are hard pressed to remember one joke that you liked, or you're hard pressed to remember what you even liked about it. You go, I just spent an hour laughing, but I don't really remember any of it. I know I enjoyed myself, but I can't, it's not with me anymore. And what I really wanted to do was write something that would stay with you after this. So you were still feeling like we talked about, you're still feeling it. And you can't just do that with comedy. You have to mix drama into it. Because comedy, that's not what comedy does.Phil Hudson:Well, I mean, your course and what I've seen you do in your craft and sitcoms as well, this is really key point, is why do we care about this thing? The reason we don't care. That's the story. And that's the personal, and that's the people. And so, I mean, this has been your point, and what you've been teaching for years and years anyway is none of it matters unless it means something. And that is the drama part of the comedy. That comedy can break things and it can move us and give us that ebb and flow and that roller coaster effective emotions. And those are beautiful experiences to have in sitcoms or dramas or dramedies. But it's the, why are we watching this? It's the human thing. It's that human piece. That's what you're saying. That's what I'm hearing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What's at stake here? What's really at stake? And again, I studied other writers. Some I thought did it great, and some I didn't think did it well at all. And so I was trying to hold myself to that higher standard of the ones who did it really well, because I knew what I, what I wanted out of this.Phil Hudson:And again, we've started by saying, you've climbed this mountain, and there's another mountain.Michael Jamin:There's another mountain. Sometimes people have said to me like, well, are you going to turn this into a TV show? It's so odd. It's so odd. Or a movie that somehow I was even watching, what was I watching, American Fiction, that movie. And there's a line in it where this author, she had a book that was a bestseller, and then she's giving an interview and someone said, oh, maybe they'll a hear. They're making a movie out of it. And she's like, well, I can't tell you anymore as if a movie is better than a book or a TV show is better than a book. A book could be a book, a book. What's wrong with a book? Just being a book.So I don't either have any plans to turn this in TV show. If anyone, could it be me? I am a TV writer. I could have very specific ideas on how I would want to do it, and whether a buyer would want to do that or not, I don't know. But I wouldn't compromise how I'd want to do it. But the best way to make it happen, if it did happen, I would have to sell a lot of books first. So if anyone wants to see it happen, then get a book. And then I would actually make content behind the scenes on TikTok, Hey, look at me now I'm meeting with this studio. And now if that's the ride you want to go on, then in order to go on that ride, I have to sell a lot of copies. But again, that's not my goal. Show support. You can if you're curious, but again, that's not my goal. The goal of this was only one thing. I want to write a book that moves people was never a TV show. I can write a TV show. I write TV shows. That's not what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:And if you want to be moved, you have to buy a copy of the book because if you're listening to this and you want to experience what Michael has put together, you have to buy a copy of the book because that is, I know the number you've invested significantly into just making this happen for yourself. This is not some random cousin who's like, Hey, I wrote a book and I put it on Amazon publishing. This is the real deal. I mean, lift your book up if you don't mind, so people can see the cover. This has been out for a minute, but even just the story of this cover and how you got this cover and found this artist and license, it is a beautiful story in and of itself.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Okay. That's another thing. So I wanted to cover,Phil Hudson:Before we dive into this, I just wanted to point out too, when you were talking about, you looked at all these other writers and people and you said, that's who I want. That's the level I want to be at. You've done this one. Whatever you do next, you're still going to be saying the same thing. All right. What's the next level of professionalism or craft that I can get to? And that's because you are a pro, and that's what you tell people to be a professional, which is constantly striving to be better than the last time.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There are a lot of writers or authors, maybe indie authors, they're cranking out books. I'm like, Jesus, I cranked this out. This took four years. I didn't crank this out. This was worked on really, I really worked on it.Phil Hudson:But talk about your cover. I apologize for interjecting there. I just wanted to get that point across that you're still going to be pursuing that. Excellent. And that's what makes people stand out. Excellence stands out in a world, I hope so.Michael Jamin:Yeah, make something good and people will, okay, so for the cover, I wanted a good cover, but the book is funny and it's also very poignant. And so I looked at other books that I thought were really good, and so I found this one guy who had actually designed some of David Sari's early covers. I didn't know this guy, but obviously he gets comedy. So I read, his name is Steve Snyder. I just found him on Instagram. I don't know him from a hole in the wall. And I DMed him. I slid into his dms and I told him what I was working on, and I told him, I noticed how weird it's for me to reach out to him. And he goes, oh, well, send me your manuscript. So I did. And then a couple weeks went by, he wrote back. He goes, I love it. I'm in. And now this guy, he's like 80 or something, but he was retired. He goes, I'll come back out of retirement to make the cover for you. I go, great, but just so you know, I don't know what my budget is. He goes, oh, I'll do it for free. I want to be part of it. I love it. I want to be part of it.Phil Hudson:Wow, Michael, just let that sit. I know you've internalized that, but we talk about to everybody. You got to own the wins and you got to celebrate the victory. He's like, what does that mean to you that this accomplishedMichael Jamin:Desire? It was very validating. It was very, and then I was like, alright, well, I'll just figure out what I'm going to pay you later, but, but then as we were moving down the line, he's retired, so he was getting, I just made plans. I'm going to be traveling from, he goes, I want to do this, but I don't think I can get it done on time. He goes, I was like, okay, I don't want to, okay, maybe you can refer somebody. So he recommended one of these accolades, one of the people he trained under him. And so I reached out to her same deal. And so I want hiring her, Jenny Carro. She did a wonderful job with the cover, but getting the cover. And then when we finally got the cover and I reached out to Steve again, I go, here's the cover.You want to see it? And he goes, oh, damn. I love it. I wish I didn't drop out. That's awesome. But what happened with Jenny? So she came back with a bunch of covers that were good, but they didn't feel right. There was something about it didn't feel right. It was like almost, and then she had one cover, and I hate to keep going back and forth with her. I was like, I don't want to discourage her. So one was almost good, almost like right, but not quite right. And then I was intent. I was going to use it. And then for some reason I happened to see an ad on Facebook. It was an article about artists or whatever. So I click on this article and I'm reading the article, and then there's other, I see the cover that she was going to license for my, she was going to license some artwork for my cover, and I recognize it.I go, that's it. And I click on it to discover more about what this artist had done. And then, which took me to his website or his Instagram page, I don't remember. And then I discover all his other work and I go, that's the one. So this is a licensed piece of art from this Dutch artist named Tune Juin. And I reached out to him, I want to license this art for your book, for my book. And he goes, great. It was just a boy sitting on words. And the title is a paper orchestra. And so it's not, what does it mean? It's just a boy struggling with words. That's all it is. And that's what the book is. It's about a boy who grew up to be a man who struggled with words.Phil Hudson:Do you remember what I told you when you told me that story? You remember what I calledMichael Jamin:It? What did youPhil Hudson:I said, that's Providence.Michael Jamin:Providence, yeah. There was a lot of that. There was a lot of just, Hey, that's the universe telling me this is what your cover should be. And once I saw it, I go, that's it. We're done. We're done. We could stop looking.Phil Hudson:And then here's an artist who is putting art out that I would consider to not be standard, normal art that you would think about in a normal way. And then here he is featured in this article, and then here, now you're reaching out and his art is now supporting and improving your art. It's a beautiful thing.Michael Jamin:And then the same thing with Anthony Rizzo, who did the music. When I got him aboard, I go, listen, Anthony, I'm making this audiobook. I don't know how much I can pay you. He goes, I don't care. I want to be part of it. So I was like, okay. And then I had a small budget for him, but then I got this brand deal from Final Draft. I go, oh, good. I can give him whatever I was going to pay him. Now I can pay him additional money from this brand deal. It doesn't come really out of my pocket. Its money. It's kind of found money. So I just give it right to him. That's great. That'sPhil Hudson:Great. I love that, man. Your network will pay in spades if the work you do is quality and you're a good person. I've seen that for you. I've seen that for myself. I've seen it in lots of other people. People want to be a part of your project if what you're doing means something and you're kind. And if you were Dick, imagine you were the showrunner and you were throwing tantrums and going on Tirades on Marin. Do you think anybody, I would want to work with you on this.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But there's that. And like I said, there's also build it for, if I started this by saying, reaching out to these people on Instagram or whatever, Hey, I have this idea that I want to make. Will you be part? No, come back to me when you're done, basically. And so for everyone who has a movie they want to make or a scene, alright, shoot a scene on a park bench with your phones. They're like, you don't need to spend $10,000. You could do it for 50. Whatever you need.Phil Hudson:Jamie Kaler, who I think you're going to have on the podcast, he just Captain Polonsky on Taco D and a bunch of other stuff. I had a long running series as well. He's got a series that he did with another known actor called Dad's in a Park, I think is what it's called. It's him on a bench with another dad just talking about dad stuff.Michael Jamin:And where's that on YouTube?Phil Hudson:I'll find it. I think it's on YouTube and Instagram. But it's so real and funny. It's like, yeah, this makes sense. And it's two great actors who are just doing their thing. And it plays and it plays really well. It's very funny.Michael Jamin:And when you look at people doing interesting things, this is what I say, people who are just popping, who just broke onto the Hollywood scene somehow. Somehow they have a special on Netflix or somehow they're a star of a show or a movie, whatever. Look how they did it. They did it themselves. And then Hollywood discovered them because Hollywood was like, oh, we can make money off this person.Phil Hudson:It's the fable. It wasn'tMichael Jamin:The other way around.Phil Hudson:It's a fable of overnight success that is never overnight success. There was always something before that. EveryMichael Jamin:Time, these are people who are already building it, people like me, people like you who are already building it, and then people see go, oh, what's that fool over there building? I want in on it. And that fool's going to say, well, you can be in or you can either way. I'm doing it without you. So come along for the ride if you wantPhil Hudson:Going to happen. I had love to talk about some of the endorsements of your book, if that's okay. I don't want to embarrass you with some of this stuff. How do you feel about telling the John Mayer story?Michael Jamin:Oh my God. That's anotherPhil Hudson:Thing. I think it's a great story. And I'll just say this. Michael will always be very hesitant about bringing in friends or colleagues to talk about his stuff. And he's made it ver

This week we welcome Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme from Tacoma FD to the show! You may know them best as Farva and Mac from ‘Super Troopers' or Landfill and Fink from ‘Beerfest', they stop by to talk whiskey, comedy and Tacoma FD! Tacoma FD is a hilarious show that follows the hijinks of Kevin and Steve as Firefighters in Tacoma WA and just had all 4 seasons added to Netflix so you can go on and binge every episode now! It was a great conversation! We talk Tacoma FD, we talk Super Troopers, Super Troopers 3, Pappy Van Winkle, WhistlePig, we cover the gambit and it makes for a damn good conversation! So check out Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme on this weeks episode of The Bourbon Showdown Podcast! 

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd #timmurphy ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BETTER HELP Special Offer: 10% OFF https://betterhelp.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd #timmurphy ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma BETTER HELP Special Offer: 10% OFF https://betterhelp.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com DISPLATE Get UP TO 33% OFF Your Order PROMO CODE: TALKOMA http://displate.com/talkomafd BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd #season4 ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com DISPLATE Get UP TO 33% OFF Your Order PROMO CODE: TALKOMA http://displate.com/talkomafd BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BETTER HELP Get 15% OFF Your Order http://betterhelp.com/talkoma BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BETTER HELP Get 15% OFF Your Order http://betterhelp.com/talkoma BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma BETTER HELP Special Offer: 10% OFF http://betterhelp.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BETTER HELP Get 15% OFF Your Order http://betterhelp.com/talkoma BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme join Tony and Jason to talk about Tacoma F.D. (Out Now on Netflix), Super Troopers, Skating in NYC, Steve's Father's Courting Advice, Learning how to Love from one's Mother, Filming Intimate Scenes in Movies, and Various Wholesome Stories from our very own Jason Ellis. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma BETTER HELP Special Offer: 10% OFF http://betterhelp.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

Welcome to Talkoma FD a weekly behind the scenes show for season 4 of Tacoma FD with your hosts Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme. This is the season premier. New episodes every Monday & Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. #tacomafd #kevinheffernan #stevelemme #talkomafd ============================================ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS BLUE CHEW Promo Code: TALKOMA FREE SAMPLE ($5 Shipping) http://bluechew.com BABBEL 55% Off Your Order http://babbel.com/talkoma

This Week's Guests: Steve Lemme & Kevin HeffernanEver found yourself wondering why your teen's bedroom looks like a scene from a disaster movie, while you're out there, mowing the lawn alone? You're not alone in this parenting conundrum, and this episode brings a hefty dose of reality mixed with laughter. Join us as we navigate the intricate dance of household chores, the pressures of teen sports, and the pains and gains of raising kids with the comedic maestros Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme.Have you ever walked into a family gathering only to leave with an epic tale of mishap and mayhem? We've all been there, and today's episode is chock-full of those moments, plus a foray into the evolution of comedy that's shaped our cultural lingo. Alongside these stories, we dissect the concept of free time – or the lack thereof – in our jam-packed parental lives, and muse over the creative sparks that fly in the world of improvisational comedy and filmmaking.Capping off this rollercoaster of a conversation, we dive into the golden age of comedy films, reliving the quotes and scenes that unite us in laughter. As we chat with Kevin and Steve, we share tales from the trenches of parenting and the quirky world of Hollywood. From the accidental discovery of tomorrow's stars to the creative joys of low-stress film sets, we cover it all. So, pull up a chair, and let's kick back with stories and insights that'll have you laughing and nodding in agreement, all in the company of good friends and great humor.Grab yourself a drink, and join us!You can catch more of Steve Lemme on Instagram at:https://www.instagram.com/steve_lemme/You can catch more of Kevin Heffernan on Instagram at:https://www.instagram.com/heffernanrules/You can catch The Parent's Lounge live every Tuesday Night at 10pm EST/7pm PST at:https://www.facebook.com/theparentsloungeJamie Kaler's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jamiekaler/Jason Gowin's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jasongowin/Kate Mulligan's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/katestmomever/Justin Rupple's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/therupple/The Parent's Lounge TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@theparentsloungeshowSupport the show

In September, I hosted a webinar called "How To Write A Great Story" where I talked about what a "story" really is, as well as how to use personal stories to help your writing. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:It's not that The stakes of rocky areas are not about will Rocky win the fight? Who caress? Will Rocky win the competition? The contest who caress? No one cares if he wins. The stakes are, will Rocky finally feel like he's not a loser? Will he finally feel like he's not a bum? And that's something something all of us can relate to. You're listening to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today I'm talking about, I'm answering questions. Phil, I'm back here with Phil Hudson. Hey Phil. What up? So why do these webinars every three weeks? And I try to answer questions during them and we don't have time to get to all of them. So I'm going to be answering them right now and Phil's going to feed 'em to me.Phil Hudson:That's right. He'sMichael Jamin:Going to baby bird them to me. He's going to chew them up and dip 'em into my mouth.Phil Hudson:I'm going to spit 'em into your mouth. Regurgitate 'em. Love it. Yeah. You guys know the thing. We've been doing this for two years now, so we've got plenty of these episodes in the Can questions came up. We're going to dive into 'em Again, some of these things that were asked, we're not going to go over Michael because we've talked about 'em a thousand times,Michael Jamin:ButPhil Hudson:There are always some of those things that are still being asked that worth talking about a bit. So we'll go through 'em. I've broken 'em up into kind of categories just to make sure that it's easy to get through. Just be more, there are a couple of questions about your course in this I thought were worth bringing up because that was a lot of the questions that came up in September.Michael Jamin:Let's do it.Phil Hudson:Alright, let's dive into craftMichael Jamin:Michael.Phil Hudson:Dr. Adam wants to know, and these are YouTube. YouTube usernames forMichael Jamin:Anybody interested? Yes. Doctor IPhil Hudson:Help you with Dr. Adam wants to know how important is it for someone else to edit your writing,Michael Jamin:Edit? Well, when we work in television, it's very collaborative, so your work will be rewritten often heavily by the showrunners or the writing staff. But it's a very collaborative process from the beginning. We all work together to break the story, meaning figuring out what the story is, and I teach this in the course, how to break a story, and then you get notes in the outline, the first draft, the second draft, and the table draft, blah, blah, blah. So it's very collaborative. But if you're talking about, I dunno if the doctor's talking about some other kind of work other than television writingPhil Hudson:The Good Doctor.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I don't know, doctor, I'm not really sure what you mean other than I hope I answered your questionPhil Hudson:To me. Either way.Michael Jamin:You're getting my bill.Phil Hudson:Yeah, if you're billing the doctor, I love it. For me, this is a question more about, it's a common question I've seen with people starting out, which is getting feedback or peer review, if you will on things. I had a couple of friends over Mike Rap who's a writer on Tacoma d and Kevin who will feature the podcast soon and is in the screenwriting course. There were football and we talked a lot about this kind of stuff in writer's room stuff. They both work in writer writer's rooms and getting notes from peers even outside of the writer's room at our level, Kevin and I have probably spent 40 or 50 hours on Zoom now giving each other notes onMichael Jamin:Writing.Phil Hudson:That's incredibly helpful, but it's not so much that they're editing my writing, it's more of them talking about This didn't work for me, or Hey, I got confused here. And that's the feedback that you always talk about, which is the valid feedback is someone gets lost, they don't understand. It's not compelling. It's not really on page three. You have this ticky tack note where you overcapitalize a word or something like that.Michael Jamin:Yeah, editing could be not so much getting answers from someone, but just getting questions. And the questions could be, if someone's reading your work, they could say, I, what were you going for here? I didn't get what you were going for. And then you get to decide whether you want to clarify or keep it muddy. And probably keeping it muddy is probably not the greatest choice. So you just want to make sure that your audience is along for the ride. And I was going to do a post about this soon where I think part of your responsibility as a writer is to make sure you're holding your audience's hand and taking them along for the ride and not letting go because you don't want them to get lost. If they get lost, they're going to find something else to do.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, it's an interesting too, when you work with people who know story structure and they've been in writer rooms and they're giving you these notes. There are times where this thing didn't make sense to me, but I understand what you're going for there. Or I would consider this doing a different way. But then you get a note from the other guy and they're like, I loved this part. And so that conflicting thing is like, okay, I can keep this one. That's a choice. But when they're both like, Hey, I got really bogged down in this piece, that's a clear sign. You've got to fix something.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. Thank you DoctorPhil Hudson:Alex Kier, any tips on writing a story with multiple characters and stories like love? Actually?Michael Jamin:Oh, well, first of all, stories have multiple characters, but you're talking about multiple storylines. And so love actually is not that uncommon. It's a fun movie, but it's not that uncommon. You're basically just having multiple storylines and all the storylines are united by this one thread, which is love during Christmas. That's it. And there's different types of love. There's Brotherly Love. The way the Rock Star character had for his manager, what was that guy's name? But there's brand new love the way the two characters who met on the porn set. That's like an awkward way of meeting. And there's other romantic love between a couple that's been married for a long time, and that was Emmett Thompson's character with Alan Rickman's character. Then there's Love, new Love Upstairs, downstairs, love, which was, what's his name? Hugh? Hugh Grant, come on. Hugh Grant, thank Hugh Grant's character.I don't remember her name, but he was the prime minister and she was the lowly chambermaid or whatever she was supposed to be. And then you have another Love one character was a love where they can't communicate. So it was Colin Firth's character and I don't remember her name, but she didn't speak. She was the Portuguese maid and she didn't speak English. So you're just examining love over Christmas between different types of love and that's how they're all united. So that was the theme. And every story has to tell a version of that. Oh, then there's one of the love there was brand new love, like puppy love, right? There was a storyline between the kid and what's his name? He was like the young kid and his stepfather, Liam Neeson. And he's trying to coach him into, wasn't that in love actually, or is that somethingPhil Hudson:Else? I have never seen love actually.Michael Jamin:Oh, you got to watch it. So yeah. So those are my tips. So that's it. And you're just kind of integrating these very stories so each one can stand on its own. Each story can stand on its own. And you're probably, if I had to time it, I would imagine that most stories, so there was one other, there was unrequited love where the guy had a crush on his best friend's, new wife, Kira Knightly, and so all different kinds of love. And I imagine if you took a stopwatch and you timed out each storyline you'd get to, they, they're all approximately the same amount of weight in terms of screen time and that's it. And if they weren't, I imagine it's because some of the stories got cut down because we weren't quite as compelling on camera as they were in the script. But I talk about this a lot. Maybe I should do a breakdown in the course of love. Actually, I talk aboutPhil Hudson:This. People love that. And you brought love actually up in stuff in the courseMichael Jamin:I did. Okay. We already talked about it.Phil Hudson:Well, I don't think you've done a case study. And for those who are unfamiliar, Michael has these awesome case studies in where you'll talk about movies you love Amle, and you'll talk about, I think, did you do Rocky Ferris Bueller's Day Off Castaway, just looking at films and TV shows and kind of breaking 'em down for story structure and talking about what works, what doesn't. And then you also hypothesized this, I imagine got cut in editing becauseMichael Jamin:AsPhil Hudson:A writer, there's a thing here that could be here or was missing, that kindMichael Jamin:Of thing. Yeah, there was a scene that I think that was missing from love actually, that I imagine they shot, but they just cut it for the sake of time.Phil Hudson:But I think it would be worth doing that. I think the members in the course would be pumped to get another case study,Michael Jamin:But there you go. Take the course if you want to learn more. But that, it's a good question.Phil Hudson:You hit on something that you talk about in one of your webinars that we're going to be putting back into the cycle because people really liked it, which is how do professional writers create great characters? And there's this nuance you talked about in the September webinar thatMichael Jamin:BecamePhil Hudson:A full webinar, and it's about how you pick your characters. So I'll leave that a bit nebulous. So anybody's interested in that, come attend the nextMichael Jamin:Webinar. Yeah, please do. Because free in the next one, I'm talking about either character or story structure.Phil Hudson:So when this podcast drops, it'll be like tomorrow, literally tomorrow, that's going to be the podcast that we're talking, the webinar we're talking about. And you can sign up at michaeljamin.com/webinar to get notified.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Cool. Leanne Allen, how important is it for the goal to be broadly relatable?Michael Jamin:Well, it's very important. I mean, the goals should be hugely important to the character, and it should be something that we could all hopefully relate to. I mean, if the goal is redeeming yourself in your mother's eyes, that's very relatable. If the goal is, I know if the goal is winning first prize, first place in a contest, who caress, it has to be more than that. It has to be more relatable than that. To be honest, I don't really care about winning contests, so I don't really care if your character wins a contest, but if winning the contest is a way for this person to finally feel good about themselves and their lives because it's validation, because they're a loner and because no one's ever looked at them twice and win this contest as a way of them being able to hang their head up high publicly, that's a relatable goal. Understand. But winning a contest in itself, who cares?Phil Hudson:And that's the value of what you teach in these webinars and in the course is the difference between plot and story. Plot point would be they have to win this contest. The story is like, why does this matter? ToMichael Jamin:Why?Phil Hudson:How is this going to affect them? It's the internal need versus the external need. Winning the contest is the external, but the internal is the reason we watch it. And that's the relatable piece.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Desmond Bailey, how do you not front load the pipe?Michael Jamin:Oh, well, boy, I talked about this a lot. I wonder why they're askingPhil Hudson:This. And just to clarify for people, this will be helpful. These are questions directly coming from the chat in the webinar when people are asking questions and they're questions we didn't get to in the q and a portion of the webinar, so this is something you had related to, or they're setting something you set in the webinar, which was don't front load your pipe or don't be pipe. And so maybe explain pipe and expedition to people.Michael Jamin:So pipe is what we call in the business, we call it exposition. So it's all the stuff that you need to know. It's the background story. It's the story before the story begins. And generally it's boring. Pipe is just like something you need to hear, not you don't want to hear it. You need to know to the characters. And so generally, the faster you can get to the pipe, the better, or you have to be artful about the pipe. So here's a bad version. You'll watch a show and you'll say, Susie, you're my sister. Why would I ever do that with you? My sister? A character would never tell another character, you're my sister. That's pipe. Because that character, she knows her sisters, Frankie, we've been best friends for 18 years, Frankie knows this. And so there are ways to get through the pipe artfully so that your audience doesn't feel like, Ugh, why people don't talk like that. Often a way to do this is by introducing a third character. So when a third character comes on the screen, the person who are you just talking to? Ugh, I was just talking to my sister. Now we know who that person is. Right? Sis, anytime you hear someone, a character calling the character sis, you roll your eyes. I've never met anyone who called her sister Sis.Yeah, and I talk more about that in the course, but I just happened to watch, I was sent a short to potentially work with someone and they shot a miniature TV show. I guess it was sent to my agent or somebody. There was a lot of pipe in it. It was a lot of clunky pipe because they just didn't know how to do it Every time it just stops the story cold.Phil Hudson:So the question is, how do you not front load the pipe? Do you have any tips for how to do that? I mean,Michael Jamin:ObviouslyPhil Hudson:The character, but if I've got to get this stuff out, and maybe you don't need to get it out at the front, because I saw someone do this masterfully where a character was introduced very late in the film, and it added this beautiful plot point that tied back to something at the beginning and explained something. But it was intriguing enough that I got through two thirds of the film before this part mattered. But it's rare to see that. It seems like people are just, act one is laying down the pipe and getting you set in your wall.Michael Jamin:YouPhil Hudson:Understand? And I don'tMichael Jamin:ThinkPhil Hudson:What you teach us is that that's the wrong way to do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah, because pipe is so boring. All that exposition is boring and you think it's important. You think you need it, and I'm telling you, you better figure another way around it. No one wants to hear it. So you could drip it out slowly as the audience needs it, or you could burn through it fast or you could, there's just a number of ways of doing it, but giving me entire scenes of pipe is not the way to do it. That's going to bore the hell out of everybody. No one wants to watch pipe.Phil Hudson:Yeah, makes sense.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Awesome. So those are our craft questions for this episode or for this, but we've got breaking in one question on this, Kelli Art, what's the best way to get paid to learn writer's assistant? How do you get such a competitive job?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, so writer's assistant is a fantastic way, but it's not an entry level job because you have to know how to do it. I've talked about this before. I'm not qualified to be a writer's assistant. I don't really know the ins and outs of the job, even though I've been a showrunner several times. So the way you learn how to be a writer's assistant is you start off often as a production assistant and you hang out with the writer's assistant. You ingratiate yourself and you ask, Hey, can I watch you work? And then you learn how they do it. Then hopefully that writer's assistant falls deathly ill, and you take their job away from them, and that's how you do it. Then once you're in the writer's room, that's the best way to get paid to learn. You will learn so much that you'll get lost. And so it's a long process. But yeah, that's a wonderful way to do it.Phil Hudson:And if you're a writer's pa, we've talked about it on the podcast many times, you still get to learn. You're sitting outside of the room within ear, so if they need something, they call you. So you're sitting outside the room listening to them, break the story and tell jokes. And I had this moment where Kevin Heffernan walked in one time and he's just like, and I still really knew it was maybe a month into me being a writer's assistant. This is the showrunner for people who don't know. And he's like, how's it going? You watching a lot of shows? And I was like, Nope. He's like, man, why not? You're sitting here all day. And I was like, I'm just riding. He's good for you. And he just walked away because that's what most people do is they get in that room and they sit there and they just watch Netflix or they do something. But I treated it, and this is probably because of advice you gave me from what you did, is that is craft time. You're sittingMichael Jamin:Down,Phil Hudson:You are riding. So when they're breaking stories, I'm listening to how they're breaking stories. I'm listening to pitch things when they're not in or somebody's out, then I'm working on my stuff. It's just taking advantage of every moment.Michael Jamin:I learned this from my first roommate when I moved out here. I had one of these PA jobs and I was not happy with it. And he's said, just think of it like you're getting paid a lot of downtime. Think of it. You're getting paid to learn how to write. And I was like, okay, you're right. You're right about that. So in that downtime, I just started. And then of course you could read scripts, you could talk to writers, you could ask them, why did you make this change? You get to talk to people and they'll give you little tips hopefully.Phil Hudson:And by the way, Michael, this is advice. You kind of gave me the preamble to this advice really before I even got to la. But then there was a moment where you kind saw, it was two years in three years into doing this stuff, and you gave me that same advice. Just look at it as you're getting paid to learn. I dunno if you could see it in my face or something, but it was like,Michael Jamin:Well, it's hard. I know what it was. It's a souls. It can be so frustrating. You're so close to the job you want. Literally, you are three feet away from the job you want and you're there for years. And it's like, when do I get to move up to that other seat that I want to sit in? So it's very, how is it not frustrating? But it's just how it is.Phil Hudson:But it's not individual either. Like I said, I was just here with Mike Rapp and Kevin, and they're both worst. One has been a script coordinator. The other was a script coordinator who bumped and broken as a staff writer,Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:They were talking, they'd never met each other, so they're just kind of giving each other the resume. And it's like, yeah, I moved here and I was at Disney working in the parks for four years, and then I met someone whose husband was an executive and AB, C, and he brought me in for the pilot season. And then I got hired as a writer's PA on the Muppets. And I was like, this is it. I'm in, because it's the Muppets, it'll never get canceled. And then it got canceled, and then it was hopping between show to show from different job to different job for seven years until he finally got the bump. And Mike rep was not really any different. He moved here and he was in a production company and always dangling the carrot of, we ever get a show, we'll get you into, be in the writer's room. And six years finally got a show and got the job.Michael Jamin:But you know what though? I've been on shows where PA has worked on the show and the PAs have gone to some of the PAs who worked for me. One is big in Chuck Laurie's world, so he's like a exec or, and he's directed several episodes of Sheldon or Big Bang, one or the other. And the other one has done a lot of, it's always Sunny in Philadelphia. And another one is co-executive producer of Bob's Burgers. And these are all people who started off as PAs underneath me. And so that's where they are. So it's like it'sPhil Hudson:Just a process.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's a process. You got to hang in there.Phil Hudson:I was thinking on my drive today, I went out and had to get some stuff and I drove around and I was like, yeah, I think people just think that this stuff is beneath them, and you can't have that attitude. I came at it thinking, look, this is just the path. This is the apprenticeship model. I want to learn from these people. And you talk about this, people always want to jump further ahead in their careers and become a showrunner and sell their first thing and do that. And we all want that because the dream, but you're kind like, you kind of don't want that. What you want is to learn how to do the jobMichael Jamin:Because you'll get fired so fast if you don't have to do the job. I was going to answer a post like that on social media soon, but someone had a showrunner question. So I'll do a post about that soon.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Cool. Couple of questions about the course here. Tank a Soar. Do you have a lesson on how to write a French farce? And this is a topic that came up in theMichael Jamin:Webinar? Yes, goodPhil Hudson:Question. So maybe define what that is for people. I don't think that's a term many people know.Michael Jamin:A farce is three's company did a lot of Farces, Frazier did a lot of farces. So it's a lot of slamming doors, people overhearing things, misinterpreting things, and only hearing the conversation and assuming that this person wants this thing. And it's a lot of doors slamming and just people crossing and misinformation. It's a lot of fun. And I said in the webinar that I wrote for Joe Keenan, who was one of the Frazier writers, and he created with Chris Lloyd, a show called Out of Practice that I wrote on for a year. And Joe is brilliant, brilliant at writing FARs. I don't know anybody better. I watched a show, a famous episode of Frazier, just to study for this. What could I talk about FARs? I watched an episode, I think it was, I dunno what it's called, the Ski Cabin episode or something. It was very funny. In my opinion, FARs is a really, they're hard to do well and they're hard to sustain. The stakes are always, to me, they're hard to sustain because the stakes are always, it's always about a misunderstanding. And so it's always silly. And so very, very hard in my opinion, to really write a really good farce. And I wouldn't necessarily start there if that was what your goal is, I'd start writing something a little easier. I don't know.It is hard. And they're a little tortured, and that's okay. But yeah, I don't know. You're asking me how do I hit a grand slam? Well, let's talk about how they get on base first.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And the question was, do you have a lesson on how to write a French forest in the course?Michael Jamin:Yeah, there is no, and I thought about after I watched that episode of Frazier, I go, maybe I should do a lesson on that. And then I watched, I go, nah,Phil Hudson:I don't think I should. I think it personally, I just think it would be a mistake. You're going to send all the hundreds of people in your course down a rabbit hole of riding French farces, and they're going to get lost in that, I think.Michael Jamin:And there's no demand for it. Like I said, I think it's just don't start there. Don't start there.Phil Hudson:Shiny object syndrome. We find something new and that's what we want to do. And then the reality is you got to focus on the fundamentals. That'sMichael Jamin:All thatPhil Hudson:Matters.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Keith Shaw wants to know is the beat board, the unpacking of the crate? And for context, everybody, Michael has this story he's talked about on the podcast and brings up in the webinar occasionally about how to unpack a story. And there's this crate of parts, and then it's how you unpack that, and that's what a story is. I don't want to give too much away, but whatever you want to give away, Michael.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, so every writer room I've ever been in has a big whiteboard, and the s showrunner will send the whiteboard and we'll start pitching the idea and then we'll figure out how to break it on the board, figuring out what the act break is. First act break is second, act break middle to two top, you lay it out all the parts, and you look at it as a whole and does it hold together? And then that could take a week, and then you start writing an outline off of the board. So when they say the analogy, I talked about unpacking a crate. Yeah. It's similar to what a board is. The whiteboard is. It's like what's the order in which we're going to unfold all the, unpack the elements of the crate to tell an engaging story.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. James Moore, what's the difference between a log line and an outline?Michael Jamin:Oh, well, a log line is one or two sentences. And outline could be 10 pages if you're talking about a half hour TV show. So that's the difference.Phil Hudson:And line is you've alluded to, everyone needs a log line. If you don't understand it, you don't know what you're writing. And an outline is a step in the writing process. And it typically, it's a couple steps after you break a story.Michael Jamin:And the log line, a lot of people don't know if I ask you, what's your story about? And they go, well, it's about this and also about this, and also about this. It's like, okay, if you can't explain what your story is in one or two clear, succinct sentences, if you can't explain your story, then you don't understand your own story. And if you don't understand it, the audience isn't going to understand it. So it's really important to have a clear log line about what your story is about one or two sentences. That's it. Simple. Einstein said it. If you can't explain something simply, chances are you don't understand it.Phil Hudson:Yep. David Campbell asked a very similar question about the order. I think we answered that. So David, that should answer that question for you. JY Tau, does the course teach you how to get your work produced?Michael Jamin:Oh, no. And a matter of fact, that shouldn't be the goal. The goal, that course teaches you how to write a great script. And that's the only thing you have control over here. Most people want to skip that step. This guy's asking me, will the course teach me how to become a millionaire? No, the course doesn't teach you that. Does the course teach you how to give an acceptance speech at the Oscars? No. It won't teach you that. The course, all that is look, that comes later. Hopefully the course will teach you how to write a good script or hopefully a grade script. And everyone skips that step. They assume they already have it. And I'm here to tell you, you don't. And maybe you're the 1% that does great, but 99% of the people think they're in that 1%. And most people who go through the course say, oh, thank God, I wish I know. Now I have to go back and rewrite that script because I thought it was great. And now I'd realize it's not so.Phil Hudson:Amen. I'm one of those people. And this is a bit of the Dunning Kruger effect, which is this moment where you learn a little bit of something and you think you're an expert in it.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Then the more you learn, you realize there's a lot to learn. And then there's a certain point where you know more than you think. And Michael, even at your level, I hear you say this, sometimes I'm not as good as that guy, or I'm not that. And that may be factually true in terms of talent, but it's also, that's the humility of being an expert is knowing how little in this space,Michael Jamin:That's another thing is if you were to ask almost any showrunner I've worked with or worked for, they'll all tell you, oh, writing is so hard. It's the people who are just starting out who will tell you, Hey, I'm good at this. And you don't know what you don't know yet. And the more you do it, and now I'm at the point where I'll look at something, I'm like, oh God, I'm starting to unravel and I have to trust myself because it's like, is this the best way to tell the story? Maybe there's a better way.Phil Hudson:That's no different than my career in digital marketing though. I'm at the point where I can say I'm an expert. I've been doing it for how many years? Over a decade. But there's plenty of time still where I'm like, oh man, I don't know. Is this going to work? And then you have toMichael Jamin:JustPhil Hudson:Go back and say, there is a pattern and a history here of results that back up what I think I need to do. And I just have to go with that because million different caveats and details you got to pay attention to in all of this. And Michael, by the way, this is a big thing you helped me with was just focusing on the detail. Stop being so, I don't want to call it lazy writing, so much time and energy that goes into it, but it's the passing over the detail and the detail is the devil. It's in theMichael Jamin:Detail. Yeah, the little things stand out.Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content And I know you do because You're listening to me, I will Email it to you for Free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, Actors, Creative types, people like you can Unsubscribe Whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com/and now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about Mishu Pizza.Phil Hudson:So if we take the course, do we get certified?Michael Jamin:Phil has tried to convince me to offer certification.Phil Hudson:I think there's a good certification. I want to be clear.Michael Jamin:Its thePhil Hudson:Type of certification we'll explain after yours. SoMichael Jamin:Here's the thing, if I were, I have said over and over again that if you got a degree in screenwriting and MFA in screenwriting or certificate, whatever, the degree itself is worthless. You're not going to go into a meeting, you flash your degree. When I go into a meeting, I don't even talk about my college education. No one caress. No one caress where I went to college. It doesn't come up. All they care is, can I put words on the page that compel people to turn the pagePhil Hudson:And the fight you got into with your wife the previous day? That's the story.Michael Jamin:Oh, we'll talk about that. Yeah, the degree, if I offered a degree, I think I'd be hypocritical. Hey, I have a degree from Michael Jamin University, or whatever the hell it is. I know some people want that, but I feel like, again, it's that's not going to open doors. Your script's going to open doors. And if I can teach you how to write a great script, that's more important than a gold star for me,Phil Hudson:My pitch for everybody was that Michael put out a certificate. So when you complete the course, you get that says, congrats, here's your fancy certificate, it's worthless. Go write something good. You goMichael Jamin:Write something. Yeah, we could do something like thatPhil Hudson:That I thought would be kind of just chef'sMichael Jamin:OnPhil Hudson:The whole thing. Desmond Bailey question, do you build this story? I wonder if his name's Desmond Bailey question or if this is just Desmond Bailey has aMichael Jamin:Question.Phil Hudson:Do you build the story world first and then inject the characters or focus on characters and let the world procedurally generate as they navigate it?Michael Jamin:So I spoke about this though in the webinar, so I feel like he probably was jumping the gun. IPhil Hudson:Think it's a good question. I think it'sMichael Jamin:Worth, yeah. Well, I answered it and I basically say you do it at the same time. And I think about what the world is first and who are the best characters to put in this world, or as I've said in the webinar, who's the worst character to put in this situation? And if you want to know what I mean by that, you're going to have to come to the next webinar where I talk about character. But that's the way I look at it. Who's the worst person to put in this situation?Phil Hudson:Yeah, there you go. Alec Cuddle back. My stuff is usually story driven and people criticize preferring character driven. Why is that?Michael Jamin:Oh, because plot is boring. Okay, what's this person's name?Phil Hudson:Alec Cuttle.Michael Jamin:Alec, alright, Alec. Okay. So I dunno if you're young or old, but there's a movie called Rocky, starring Sylvester Stallone. The first Rocky was fantastic. It won the Oscar put Sylvester Stallone on the map after they did Rocky, they did eight more Rocky, eight more. I don't know how many Rockies they did, including Creed and Creed One and Creed two or whatever. They've made countless sequels to Rocky. Every single rocky has the same exact plot. You put someone in a boxing ring and they get the shit kicked out of them, and then maybe at the end they're alive. So the plot itself for Rocky and most of the Rockies are not considered great. Only one won the Oscar, and that was the first one, even though the plot is virtually identical. So the difference between Rocky won and Rocky a hundred is the story. One had a just amazingly compelling small story, and the other ones lacked that. And so what this guy's Alec is talking about is it sounds like he's just got, I got a lot of plot. Well, who caress the plot is not the good stuff. You got to have a good plot. But it's, the story is what makes people cry. And if you want to know the difference between plot and story, you have to come to my next free webinar because I talk. It's an hour long discussion.Phil Hudson:Excellent. Cameron Billingsley, how do you know you have drawn out the anticipation enough when you're building anticipation in yourMichael Jamin:Storytelling? Yeah. Well, I wonder if the person's talking about any kind of reveal or I guess we don't really know.Phil Hudson:I think this was specifically tying back to the crate, unpacking the crate.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. Well, how do you know? It's like these moments have to be built to anytime you have a big reveal or a moment in Act three, whatever it is, the big fight scene, the fight scene in Rocky or whatever, you have to build to it. And it's literally putting the steps on a pyramid and then you get to the top. And then if you skip a step or if each step doesn't build, you're not going to get to the top of that pyramid. And the top is the view, the top is everything. And so how do you know? Well, that's the process of writing is taking your, how do you know when you've built the anticipation? That's all of it. So if I were to write Rocky, I'm thinking in my mind, I'm building to the moment when Rocky, at the end, when Rocky's getting the shit kicked out of him, boom, time after time again by Apollo.And he keeps getting up and he keeps getting up. And I want to build that last moment where they're both down on the mat, or I don't even remember which Rocky it was. But when Rocky, the fight's almost over and Rocky's on the mat and he stands up again, just this guy won't go down. And that is even thinking about it, I get chills, but you have to build to that. That's what you're building to, which is a guy who will not quit. And why is it so important? When we talked about earlier in this podcast, it's not that the stakes of Rocky are not about will Rocky win the fight? Who cares? Will Rocky win the competition? The contest? Who cares? No one caress. If he wins, the stakes are, will Rocky finally feel like he's not a loser? Will he finally feel like he's not a bum? And that's something all of us can relate to, is that feeling, that self-worth. And so you have to build to that. How do you know? Well, that's everything. That's what you focus on. And if does help, if you're seen does not add one step on that pyramid, then to build to that final moment, then why are you have it in there? Why is it in the script?Phil Hudson:The next question from Willow is how do you know the difference between true story that should be included versus minutia and unnecessary information? I think you just answered that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Because if you don't need it, why is it in it? Why is it in there?Phil Hudson:So tying all this together for people who are newer, and good recap for me, because again, you got to remind yourself of the fundamentals every day. You even talk about how you have to remind yourself, oh yeah, this is hero, obstacle, goal, kind of that stuff. So we have a log line, and the log line helps me understand what I'm trying to accomplish with this story. But that's typically based off of a theme and that theme, my opinion generally included inside of that log line, so that I understand this is what I'm trying to accomplish with this. So the log line for Rocky is, can a bum from Philly go the distance with the champ? It's not even, can he beat the champ? It's can he go the distance? And so everyone tells him he can't think he can, and then at the end, there's that moment when he gets up, you're talking about, and Apollo creed's like, soul is taken. Are you kidding me? He'sMichael Jamin:StillPhil Hudson:Getting up. This guyMichael Jamin:Won't get down.Phil Hudson:And that's the moment where it's like, that's him getting up. And then he, Apollo wins and he's like, I did it. And it's like a victory for him because this guy won't stop and everyone's celebrating Rocky. And Rocky goes, Adrian, I did it. Right? Yeah.Michael Jamin:And I think the last line, Apollo says, there ain't going to be no rematch. And Rocky goes, don't want one. He doesn't want, he got what he wanted, and of course they made 10 more. But yeah, a beautifulPhil Hudson:Story. But they all stack and build all of these details build, like you said, you're building them to this and all of them play off the theme and the log line. And that's why all of these details, breaking the story, outlining the story, they all have to be there. Because if you're just, and we talk about how all these writers have different styles, and for some people it's making it up as you go. But professional writers, there's a process. You break the story and you do your thing, and then you do your outline, you do all these things, and then you do your rewrites and many rewrites because you're still figuring out those tiny details. But it's not like I'm going to make it up as I go because you need plant and payoff. You need these things and these symbols almost that allude to the theme and the theme plays throughout the whole thing. And if you're not structuring that like an architect, it's going to feel very hodgepodge Frankenstein. And that's a note you gave me Frankenstein together.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Phil Hudson:So there you go. People are going to be pissed. I talked to you not long on your podcast, Michael,Michael Jamin:I'll tell you. No, no, no,Phil Hudson:No, no,Michael Jamin:No.Phil Hudson:Couple more questions here.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Justin had another question for short comedy films on YouTube. Max lengths is one minute. That's shorts.Michael Jamin:That's for shorts. Clarify.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Does short structure still apply to any length film? Curious how you would approach writing a story for a one minute film? This is a format question for people who are not in the know. YouTube stories are the equivalent of Instagram reels or Facebook reels,Michael Jamin:YouTube shorts.Phil Hudson:YouTube shorts,Michael Jamin:Right?Phil Hudson:And they are, excuse me. Yeah, so they're 60 seconds, and then IMichael Jamin:Think there's 90. You're saying there's 60,Phil Hudson:That's Instagram. Instagram is expanded to 90, but YouTube is 60. And that's what this is referring to, which is a medium on YouTube, not necessarily a cap on what you can put on YouTube.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So I would say it's really hard to tell a complete story in 60 seconds, but you could tell one part of a story in 60 seconds and then another part, another 60 seconds. You could stretch it out. You might be able to tell a compelling scene in 60 seconds and a scene should have a shape to it, but don't think, can it be done? Yeah. I don't think it could be done that well. I don't think anyone's going to be that satisfied. I think you need more time to get that plane up in the air and land it. But think a bit of it like this, if a story is a journey, how far can you go in 60 seconds on a journey? Not very far at all. You can go to the end of the block. The view at the end of the block is pretty much the same, the view from my house. So I think you need more time. That's just my opinion now.Phil Hudson:Yeah. To see good shorts that you've recommended to me was go back and watch the Broad City original shorts that were put on YouTube.Michael Jamin:Okay. How long are they?Phil Hudson:They can be 90 seconds to three minutes, but they're not full stories necessarily. They're more kind of skits and you introduce your characters and we learn more about them and more interactions in different episodes of,Michael Jamin:That's just really, I never saw those. I saw the TV show Broad, which I love, but I didn't watch the shorts. Got it.Phil Hudson:Someone had a question. Again, these are miscellaneous. Someone wanted to know when they could see your CNN interview. So the day we did this webinar, you had just gotten off with CNN and joined the thing. But yeah, you've been on CNNA couple times now, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. I think you can go to my website, Phil, right? Isn't it upPhil Hudson:There? Yep. It'll be live is MichaelJamin.com And then you can just go to the About tab and you'll see it.Michael Jamin:Is it on the bound? I thought it was going to be on the pressPhil Hudson:Or something. It's press tab. Yeah, but we don't have the URL final right now, but by the time this comes out, it'll be out because we're doing some cleanup. We redesign on michaeljamin.com.Michael Jamin:Oh, it's Jill's doing a great job. It's going to be exciting. Appreciate that.Phil Hudson:AppreciateMichael Jamin:That.Phil Hudson:Jill Hargrave, she inMichael Jamin:The, oh, wait, hold on. If anybody wants their website redesigned, go check out Rook Digital, which is Phil's company. This is what he does.Phil Hudson:Yeah, Shannon was plugged. Thank you, Michael. Appreciate that. Jill Hargrave, she's in the course, right? Jill?Michael Jamin:I don't know.Phil Hudson:I believe she is. Yeah. If you're writing a biopic, does the story definition apply as the story is at least one event in the person's life and sometimes many more events than just one?Michael Jamin:So ifPhil Hudson:You're writing a biopic, does the story definition apply? I'm guessing is a biopic, is it the whole person's life, or is it a moment in this person's life?Michael Jamin:I don't know. It's kind of what you decide to write it about, I would assume. Yeah, it is what you want to decide. I've seen it both ways. You might write about JFK the early years, and maybe you're following his life in college in Harvard, I think, and that could be a whole thing. Or you could tell JFK's entire life story up until the moment he died. I mean, you could do that as well. But either way, you have to know how, and I talked about this as well. I spoke about, I really hope people come to this next webinar. I use an example of Amadeus, which is, in my opinion, the best biopic ever made. It's a beautiful movie. It's probably three hours long. There's an intermission. There's an intermission fucking movie. That's how long it is. It's myPhil Hudson:Amazing, my wife's favorite movie, by the way,Michael Jamin:Is it, isPhil Hudson:She wants me to name one of our children, Wolfgang. And I was like, come on, man. Wolfgang Hudson.Michael Jamin:I don't know Wolf. I don't know. I don't know. I'm Amm on her side.Phil Hudson:I'll let her know. She'll be pumped.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. So I spoke about that, about come listen to, I hope they come to the webinar. Well, she did. She heard it where I spoke about You're still just telling one aspect of his life of Wolfgang Mozart's life. You're not, there's a lot. They left out, the guy lived, I dunno how long he lived, but the movie's three hours and the guy lived longer than three hours. So there's a lot they left out. They only just filed this one thread of his life. And that's how you tell the story. So don't tell. In other words, don't tell. I feel like you don't want to tell the story. Someone's life story. You want to tell one story from their life.Phil Hudson:And Oppenheimer, I think is the very current version of that that did a great job. It is building up to help us understand why this person was uniquely put in this position, why it was taken from him, and then how ultimately he got justice with having to, because of his character.Michael Jamin:And there's a lot they left out, and I'm sure, I think it got some criticism for that, but what are you going to do? You can't tell everything. You have to pick a story.Phil Hudson:Yep. Yeah, adaptation. Right? It's a whole different segment of screenwriting. That is brutal. Absolutely brutal. Because you're just cutting things and combining things, and it's just a different part of the world. Helga G. How do you deal with the other characters in your life that might not be comfortable being in your story?Michael Jamin:You don't put 'em in. You don't put 'em in it. It's not your story to tell. I'm actually reading, I'm just about to finish a wonderful book by this Canadian author, Sheila Hetty, and it's called How Should a Person Be? And in this book, which is an auto fiction, so it's a true story. She uses some of her friends as characters in the story, and she talks about the blowback she got from that, which is so interesting. And I'm going to have her on my podcast soon, but I don't do it for that reason. I don't do it exactly for that reason, but I'll talk to her about it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. Last question, Rob Kao, CAO might be C Chao, I don't know. Is that Italian? CAO? It's like CI. AoMichael Jamin:Would C-C-I-A-O.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Sorry, Rob, ruin in your name. Within the last year, I've had an idea of writing a script with two specific actresses in mind. What do you recommend that I do?Michael Jamin:Well, they're not going to do it. Just know that, right? I mean, I write for actors all the time. It's just for them having someone in my mind as a placeholder. But I don't think if they're famous, unless they're the people actors in your apartment complex, then that's fine. And they're going to be in your movie, that's fine. But if you think if it's a star, they're not going to do it. So use them as a placeholder, as a template to give you as a muse. I do that as well, but I don't think I've ever written a role for someone. And they actually wound up taking itPhil Hudson:In the Tacoma FD spec that I wrote. I alluded to a famous actor who plays this type of person. I was like, just think this person. And the comment I got back, I was, oh, that was so helpful. And I know you have to be a bit careful with that because you don't want to, it can derail your script a bit.Michael Jamin:Actually, I want to take that back. We wrote an episode of Marin that we wrote it with Chet Hanks in mind, who's Tom Hanks' son. And we reached out to him and he took it. I got to say the guy killed it. He killed it. He was perfect and a really good actor.Phil Hudson:That's awesome. If you guys haven't seen Marin, go watch Marin. That show's incredible.Michael Jamin:That show's fun. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Is there anywhere to go see The Hidden? Because they were two pilots, right? There was the first pilot and thenMichael Jamin:It was a presentation, so it was only a few scenes. Got it. I don't know if I have it.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I thought it was on Prime. I think I got it on Prime originally.Michael Jamin:Wow. Was part of what theyPhil Hudson:Were doing. I'll go check. I'll see if I still have it. But yeah, it was, it's just a great show. Just massive show. And I was at an influential time when I was just really learning this stuff at a deeper level. So just seeing it play out in really tight scenes with limited characters and justMichael Jamin:Amazing, amazing. That's what was so fun about that. And I tried, we wrote some one episode where there wasn't enough of a stakes, and it was the one on dead possum where he finds a dead possum.Phil Hudson:I love that episode. That's the one I think of every time.Michael Jamin:That was a good one. But the original draft didn't have the storyline of him apologizing to his dying stepfather, not stepfather, his dying. It was missing from that. And we turned that draft into the network, and they thought, she was like, there's nothing here. There's nothing. The story's not about anything. And I'm like, don't you get it? That's the whole thing. I was trying to pull a fast one on her. I was like, but it's like waiting for Gau. She's like, no, I'm not buying it. The studio exec. And she was right. And so we wound up talking, Seaver and I, pardon? We ended up talking about it. We came up with this storyline where when Mark was afraid to go under the house to get a dead possum, that's just enough. There's not enough there. There's not enough debate for a story. And so instead, we had a concurrent storyline where he was afraid to confront his dying Father-in-Law because Mark broke up with his daughter. And in so doing, he kind of destroyed, he, mark was a coward. He didn't want to apologize to his father-in-Law for that. And so it was really a symbol. So when Mark was afraid to go under the house to get the dead possum, but he was really afraid of, was apologizing to his father-in-Law, those stakes are much higher.And so those stories kind of work really nicely together, but that was not in the original draft. Yeah,Phil Hudson:That's a great episode. There's one of the biggest laughs I've ever had. I think it was like your, might've been your end of act two, your act two, bottom of Act two with the kid fromMichael Jamin:When he says,Phil Hudson:Yeah, I was molested himMichael Jamin:Some. I think that was Seavers line.Phil Hudson:It's just like,Michael Jamin:What?Phil Hudson:Not making light of that degree. It's just theMichael Jamin:Context ofPhil Hudson:It, the setting.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It was like, you shouldn't have said that. That'sPhil Hudson:Funny. Alright, Michael, there you go. There's a bonus episode for everybody.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we're not making light of it. It was just that the guy confessed to having been molested as good, but it was like, no, we weren't talking about any of this.Phil Hudson:And then they have to talk and he's having this breakdown where this realization of he's a coward, and then now he has to be a surrogate father and listen to this kid. He's talking about his assistant and it's just like, the timing is just excellent. You guys handled it well. It's not disparaging or mean-spirited at all. It's just great. That was aMichael Jamin:Funny one. Alright, everyone. Yeah. Come to my webinar. Go watch that episode of Marin Dead Possum.Phil Hudson:Awesome.Michael Jamin:If you can find it somewhere,Phil Hudson:Michael, anything you want these guys to do other than come to the webinar,Michael Jamin:There's that. I'll be dropping my book soon. A paper orchestra, if you want to know more about that, that'sPhil Hudson:Michaeljamin.com/book.Michael Jamin:Oh, is that what it is? It'll be book. Book. Okay. TherePhil Hudson:Are a couple pages. You got AP Orchestra touring, you've got an events page, you got this. So I figured that was the easiest way to get people to the page is michaelJamin.com/book.Michael Jamin:And so the book is a collection of personal essays. If you want to learn more about what it's like to actually be a writer in Hollywood, but that's not what it's about. It's really about the premise is what if the smallest, almost forgotten moments were the ones that shaped us most. And so in the end, I have a little bonus section of the book where I talk about, so I perform the book as well. And if you want to come see that seem, be on the road, go to michael jamin.com/upcoming. And at the end of every performance, I do a talk back where I talk to the audience and they ask questions. And so I decided at the end of the book, there should be something like that where I talk about, it's basically a virtual talk back, right? I'm preemptively answering questions that people have asked me that I think people found interesting about the writing process. So that'll be in the book as well. So a little bonus for those of you who are interested in learning about writing, that'll be the last chapter. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Great. And the live performance still great. It almost a year. I can't believe it was almost a year ago. And it still sits with me as a father. It still sits with me.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Thank you. I want to start performing again. That'll hopefully start in February or March or whatever. Once that book is out, we'll start performing again.Phil Hudson:Great. Cool. All right, Michael, anything else? Thank you.Michael Jamin:I think that's it. Get on the newsletter. We're rev revamping the newsletter. We've revamped the podcast so there's more stuff, but better,Phil Hudson:More better, better streamlined, a little bit easy to get around. It kind of outgrew itself. So we talked about that on episode 1 0 4. But yeah,Michael Jamin:We didn't know what this was going to turn into, so we had to evolve it.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's a good spot. Great to be back on the podcast, Michael. Thanks for having me.Michael Jamin:Yeah, thank you Phil. Alright, until next time, keep writing everyone.So now we all know what The hell Michael Jamin's talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars@michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast Helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving Us a five star Review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of This, whatever the hell this is for Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And You can follow Phil Hudson on Social media @PhilAHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It Was Edited by Dallas Crane and music Was composed By Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have Excuses or you can have a Creative life, But you Can't have both. See you next Week.

This week, for the 100th episode we have Writer/Actor/Executive Producer Steve Lemme (Super Troopers, Beer Fest, Tacoma FD and many many more) talk about his early career, his on-going collaboration with Kevin Heffernan and doing stand up.Show NotesSteve Lemme on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0501399/Steve Lemme on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveLemmeSteve Lemme on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steve_lemme/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptSteve Lemme:Some guys were psyched that I had gotten it out there and the studio was psyched because fucking, it was massive. It was a massive announcement that got all those views. And so it was like, then the guys that were kind of mad about it were like, but don't feel like you did the right thing here. What you did was wrong. I was like, I know what I did was wrong. I'll never do it again. They're like, so don't feel justified. I'm like, I know, but then guys are looking at each other. But it is pretty fucking sweet and I definitely did the wrong thing and I would not advise that to anybody.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters need to hear this with Michael lemin.Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear this. I'm Michael and this is episode 100 of this podcast. And as an honor, I thought I would bestow this great honor onto the man. Yes. Yeah, I'm giving you the honor. It's an honor for you Lemme onto the man who's kept me employed for the past four years or more. Ladies and gentlemen, if you're listening to the podcast in your car, please pull over and give a warm round of applause to Mr. Steven Lemme. Lemme.Lemme tell people who you are, just by the way, this is the in case they don't know. So Lemme, as we call him, is the star and exec creator and executive producer showrunner of the show. I'm currently running on Tacoma fd, but you may know him. He's got a long track record of indie movies. We're going to talk about how he got these old made, including Super Troopers, bottle Cruiser Club, dread Beer Fest, lamb and Salmon, a bunch of stuff, including the latest one is quasi. I know I'm skipping over your complete filmography, but I want to give you a chance to talk. Let me thank you for being on my show here.Steve Lemme:I feel like you could just go on forever talking about me.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that would be the ideal Pat podcast for you. Just tell me more about me.Steve Lemme:I would prefer that. I would prefer that.Michael Jamin:Why? Is that? Because you're tired of telling your story over and over?Steve Lemme:No, I don't really get tired speaking about myself, but what I get less tired of is like I've gone and done some publicity lately. For instance, I did watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen. Do you know what that show is?Michael Jamin:No, I didn't know that. Where is that?Steve Lemme:It's on the Bravo Channel. All those shows.Michael Jamin:All the shows you don't watch. Yeah. Yeah.Steve Lemme:I watch them. I watch because,Michael Jamin:Because your wife watches them.Steve Lemme:Well, that's exactly how a lot of people get sucked into it. It's because somebody else is watching and you walk through the room and you're like, what stupid show are you watching? I started watching, it was Real Housewives of New Jersey, and I walked through, I was like, who are these fucking people? And my wife was like, it's Real Housewives of New Jersey. They're just, last week, this chick right here flipped up a table and called this other one a prostitution whore. And then they actually showed it on the tv. They replayed what happened last week in a flashback. I was like, wait a second, hold on. And I sat down and I was like, hold on a second. Hold on a second. What happened? Why would she flip up a table? What's wrong with her? And she's like, well, that's the thing she's on. And there was born another fan of these shows. And then you try to resist.Michael Jamin:But wait, I want to know, you got to answer the question though. Why is it you didn't want to talk about yourself in the beginning? I asked you, is it because you do so much publicity?Steve Lemme:I got off track, I got off track, but it's not that I don't want to talk about myself becauseMichael Jamin:I think it must get hard answering the same thing over andSteve Lemme:Over again again. Well, sometimes I fascinate myself, Michael, and so I find great comfort in hearing myself speak while I'm saying it. I'm like, oh, this is nice. What I'm saying right now is good. And I'm enjoying my own company. I'm a big believer in actually my way into the arts was my mom saying, because I didn't have a lot of money growing up. And actually that's actually, it's mostly true, but it's more that my mom was a teacher at a really wealthy private school. And so whatever is the reality or not, and I suspect it actually is real. I didn't have much money growing up. It felt less to maybe I was hanging out with people that had, it's like the kind where after Christmas, or you go to their house before Christmas and there's a million presents under the tree.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's right. AndSteve Lemme:You're like, Jesus, I've got two. And even that's better than a lot of people. That's why I hesitate to complain about it and put myself in that place. But when I was a kid, I would complain about not having toys and my mom would hand me paper and crayons and pencil and pen and scissors and scotch tape and say, make something, entertain yourself. And she would say, if you can't have fun with yourself, you'll never be happy. And so, by the way, am I allowed to be dirty on this podcast?Michael Jamin:You can say whatever you want to say.Steve Lemme:I was about to make a masturbation joke, which I know youMichael Jamin:Would like. I was already there.Steve Lemme:But anyway, my point is, so now that's totally off the market.Michael Jamin:You're saying this. This is your introduction to the arts,Steve Lemme:Right? So anyway, oh, I was saying I enjoy spending time with myself, the arts, but the point is I went on Andy Cohen, watch What Happens Live. And this has happened so many times where the intro, the way they introduce you is dog shit. And he didn't mention the movies, he didn't mention Broken Lizard. He just said he's on a new TV series on Hulu called QuasiMichael Jamin:Thanks for getting everything wrong,Steve Lemme:Which was not true either. And then it's like, look, I'm aware that a lot of, there is a younger generation of people who aren't familiar with Broken Lizard or those movies or Super Troopers or Beer Fest or anything like that, or they haven't watched it, but there are fans there. And also a lot of times if I don't know my mustache, people won't recognize me, but if they say it, if you get a nice intro, at least it gives you some credibility. But in this case, I was some jackass at the bar, the celebrity bartender. And so anyway, I like a good intro. I like to get stroked.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Did I stroke you enough when I brought you on?Steve Lemme:You did. You did. But I could have listened to more. YouMichael Jamin:Could to the thing about you, and I've said this before and I'll say it publicly, there are one of the great joys of working with you is that you are an open book when you talk about stories from your past and you're brutally honest. And the best comedians that I've worked with are the same way. Mark Merrim is the same way. He'd say things in the room, you'd be like, whoa, I can't believe you're telling me this. And you're the same way. So it makes it so much easier to write for you because you're just being vulnerable and you're sharing yourself and there's no judgment there. It's just funny.Steve Lemme:Thank you for saying that. I know that about myself. Kevin will say, I have no filter. That's what he will say, but I'll tell him he's too filtered.Michael Jamin:Right?Steve Lemme:I'll say, Kevin, you need to open up a little bit and share of yourself. Interesting. But it also puts the other writers at ease and encourages them to tell stories. It's like if I'm willing to tell the story about, again, it's like a lot of these things tend to wind up being a little bit crass, but it's like if I'm willing to tell a disgusting story about myself or a story where I embarrass myself horribly,Michael Jamin:Or a sex dream you had, for example,Steve Lemme:I've had severalMichael Jamin:With one of your friends.Steve Lemme:Okay.Michael Jamin:I don't want to say who, that's a great example.Steve Lemme:No. So that's a great example. So can you hear the noise? We'reMichael Jamin:Doing an interview here.Steve Lemme:My wife has come in with the children, so she doesn't know, and I'm displaced. I don't have an office with doors anymore, so I'm,Michael Jamin:There's some damage to his house. So he's got to do an impromptuSteve Lemme:Yeah, the whole, but go ahead side of the house is flooded. Okay. So the story is, so Michael and I have, I'll even say the guy's name.Michael Jamin:Yeah, okay.Steve Lemme:It makes it better. We have a common friend named Eric Levy. You grew up with him in Fresh Chester?Michael Jamin:Yes, in high school. Yeah.Steve Lemme:He and I went to college together, and I don't even know if this is proper improper to say, but I'm not gay and neither is he. But I had a dream about him where he showed up at my house with 50 bags of McDonald's burgers and then it cuts to me fucking him in the ass. But he was on top of me.Michael Jamin:I still love this story and then go on.Steve Lemme:But I told the story because whatever we were riffing on, it was like, what about those? And then I told him about it.Michael Jamin:Yes. And how did he take videos? ISteve Lemme:Called him up laughing the next morning and was like, holy shit, this is so fucking funny. I had this dream about it. You're never going to believe it. And there's a lot of guys who would be like, I'm taking that one to the grave. But the additional joke for me is that when I have with Reba McIntyre, I had a sex dream about her. And to me, when you have a sex dream about somebody, what's the difference between actually having sex with them? Because in real life, if you have sex with somebody afterwards, it's just a memory and it lives longer in your memory. And so to me, it's like if you have a vivid sex dream about Reeb McIntyre, which I did, and then it lives on in your memory, it kind of counts.Michael Jamin:But no, because no consent. She didn't consent to that either. Did Levy,Steve Lemme:You're sayingMichael Jamin:I'm was a nonconsensual sex dream that you had with both of them?Steve Lemme:I don't know. I feel like there's a blurry line there.Michael Jamin:But this is just a good example. You told this story probably the first year to call him after you in the writer's room. And I just remember laughing my ass off thinking, oh my God, this guy's going to be game for pretty much everything we pitch. And this makes easier to write.Steve Lemme:Well, and that's why you and I wound up sitting next to each other because you would always mutter filthy little offerings under your breath to me.Michael Jamin:You would enjoy them. Yeah,Steve Lemme:I didn't. I enjoyed them quite a bit. I enjoyed,Michael Jamin:Lemme ask you that, because I don't know if I've ever asked you this or maybe I forgot. We met you. The show had just gotten picked up and we met through, we had the same management company, right? Yeah, of course weSteve Lemme:Did. I used to be with them. I'm not with them anymore, but Kevin is still with them.Michael Jamin:And that's how we had that meeting. And did you meet with other writers at our level or did you just laise out, say, fuck, we'll just hire these guys. I don't want to meet more people.Steve Lemme:Kevin and I get in trouble like that. We oftentimes do hire the first person we meet, which was you,Michael Jamin:Thank God.Steve Lemme:Yeah. But I think we did. God, they're really making a racket over there. I did. We did meet with one other set of showrunners, I believe. But then what happens anyway, if Kevin and I get past the first interview and make it to the second one by the second one, we're definitely bored and we realize we've made a mistake by prolonging this process. So with us with timing is key. If you get in with us early, if you ever hear about a Lemme Heffernan gig, get your resume to us immediately because youMichael Jamin:Hire the first person you seeSteve Lemme:You got the job. Yeah.Michael Jamin:That's so funny. I know you're good that way. What is it like, I haven't asked you this question, but you do most, you don't do all your projects with Kevin, you do a lot of your projects with him or ever it now, is it everything?Steve Lemme:No, I have some side projects.Michael Jamin:How do you decide what you're doing with him and what you're not doing?Steve Lemme:Well, I try to do most things with Kevin, and I think Kevin would agree to this. For whatever reason, I sometimes find that Kevin is a little tougher to drag into things. I believe he will corroborate this. So I had the idea, we've kicked around the notion of firefighters for a while, but I said to him, let's do it.And then he said, what's the hook going to be? And I came back with this rainiest city in the country hook because it was super troopers, the most asserted stretch of highway in the country. And even then I had to drag him and I want to be careful with this because we developed a show then together and really fleshed it out. So it's like, and he has also had many ideas in those TV sessions. He also had some ideas that he wanted to do, but the animation thing now is another one I felt. I feel like it took me a long time to just get him to really be into it.Michael Jamin:I know it did.Steve Lemme:And actually I'm going to tell you, I think he's only finally into it now. Today,Michael Jamin:Today, todaySteve Lemme:For the last few weeks I We'll tell the story. We'll tell the story. But now and again, to be fair, it's like I was bringing it up probably two years ago, maybe longer, and he would say, okay, sure. But then we'd be writing the series or then we went into pre-production on quasi, which he was directing, but I never just ever got the sense that he really wanted to do it.Michael Jamin:But do you get the sense that he ever wants to do anything?Steve Lemme:No, and that's my point. That's my point. And what I realized with Kevin, and it's fine again, it's like because we're busy, but sometimes you just have to move the ball forward and he'll tell me the same thing just in general about things, and I actually think this is true in Hollywood anyway, if you want to do something, you just have to move the ball forward on your own if you can't get interest. And eventually at some point there's like, okay, this is what I've got.Michael Jamin:Are you, you know what though? When I talk about you, I talk about you guys specifically when I talk about people who've done inspiring things, because when I describe what you broken lizard, I describe you as Hollywood outsiders. There are ways that you can call the traditional way and the way you guys came, you just did it. You didn't ask for permission, you did it and you created a career from yourself and became so valuable that Hollywood now wants you as opposed to you begging Hollywood. It's the other way around.Steve Lemme:I think we're still begging Hollywood. I think with Supert Troopers three and our relationship with Searchlight has evolved to the point where the studio has said, we want to work with you. And that's how we got quasi and that's how we got Supert Troopers two, but Supert Troopers two, they were reluctant, but that's the way the business works. Then that movie did well and there were new studio heads and it's like, okay, this is a new relationship that this's really healthy. I think that everything that Tevin has ever gotten and that I have ever gotten, we have gotten for ourselves. Even though we have agents and I have great agents and managers who bring me things NowMichael Jamin:Are they bringing you, what talent are they bringing you ideas? What are they bringing you?Steve Lemme:My management and my agency will bring me TV and movie ideas to potentiallyMichael Jamin:For who?Steve Lemme:My management company. They have a big lit department, a big book and division, and so does my agency. So my management is Gotham Group, and then my agency is c a a and that every Friday, c a a sends me books, the books that are out, the new books and it's like, yeah, I mean I've never gone down that road. There was only one book I wanted to buy and then the rights to, and then my old manager poo-pooed the idea. And then I found out that three months later, Showtime bought that book and I was like, you son of a bitch. ButMichael Jamin:Wait, when they're sending are these best, these are, how are they getting the books? I don't know anything about it. They're getting bestsellers. These are the bestseller lists, these books.Steve Lemme:So my management company represents authors and c a A. They have a literature, a book literature division in New York City that represents writers and or publishers. I'm not sure really how it works, but I'm just telling you, every Friday I get a list of these things and howMichael Jamin:Interesting it is. It's so funny because you're getting an email list. I don't get an email list of books from U T A, how hard is it to put me on an email list?Steve Lemme:And that's the thing. And the thing is it's been years now and I've never even responded to the email. Then I think that I'm on an automated list now, which is actually, it's nice. I should actually look at the thing. I should look at the list.Michael Jamin:Are there PDFs attached or you request a book?Steve Lemme:I'll forward it to you on the side.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Okay. I'm just curious how Hollywood worksSteve Lemme:Well, but I think it works. It's so funny. It works so differently in every way. In fact, the joke that Kevin and I have, and I'll finish speaking about Kevin and the animation thing, but because kind of a funny story, but Kevin and I have always marveled at how Hollywood never has a shortage of original ways to screw you over.Michael Jamin:Oh, yes.Steve Lemme:And right now we've got another one going, which is that we've got the strike going and Kevin and I have a TV show that we can't promote, and it's like we worked really hard on it. We worked for over a year on it. We actually got pushed, the release got pushed six months or five months because that network in shambles. And then three weeks before it's going to come out, they say it's going to come out in July and then the strike happens. And we had been recording podcasts that would be accompany pieces with the episodes, and my older son acted in last week's episode. I couldn't promote it. My younger son is acting in this week's episode, I can't talk about it. And it's like, that's actually one of the most heartbreaking parts is that I got to act with one son in a scene. And where he was playing, me as a young boy, my character was a young boy and I was playing his grandfather. And then my other son, I got to direct in a scene where he gets to say dirty words and I can't talk about it. And I'm like, Jesus, what a screw here.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That's so fun, by the way. I know I'm hopping around, but what's it like when your comedy soup, broken lizard, is it weird to be acting against these same people over and over again and pretending, okay, now today we're pretending to be one thing, and I'm yelling at you, but we're actually friends on the side. Is that weird? Is there a moment when you're acting like, wait a minute, we're best friends?Steve Lemme:No, because funny, because Kevin and I, first of all with Kevin, he and I have now done so many, so much together and so many emotional scenes together. But we'd like to say it's so emotion. We don't deal with emotion. We deal with foam motion, as you know. And so it's like if you watch quasi, he and I have a few big blowup scenes with voice cracking and Tacoma. We have plenty of scenes where we yell at each other and sometimes we get emotional with each other. And I always think it's funny for us, it's also like we've been friends so long and we're so on each other's nerves all the time that these things are therapy sessions. Because a lot of the time in the show we're discussing things that bother him about me and me about him. And soMichael Jamin:Is there a moment where you're in the scene, you're supposed to be in character, and then suddenly you check, you go, wait a minute, he's just doing his thing and I'm doing my thing. And we're both doing make believe.Steve Lemme:The only time I ever feel that way is if we start improvising. And he starts, we had one, I can't remember what the episode was, but he said, oh, I know it was the episode, the chili Cookoff where he's fucked up on dental drugs. He had his wisdom teeth removed and he improvised a line like, oh, you must be, he's like, are we on a rollercoaster? Are we on a rollercoaster? He's like, oh, hey. Hey Eddie, you have to be this tall to ride this roller coaster. And I was like, well, and there's a maximum weight limit as well. And I felt bad about that. I was like, it didn't matter that he had made a short joke at me. At first, I felt bad that I had made a fat joke, and that happens periodically. I throw one out probably once every three months. So once a quarter I'll make a heavy guy joke.Michael Jamin:Is it weird though hanging out with him outside of work though, when you see each other so much?Steve Lemme:I think I'm good for him. The other day, a couple of months ago, I was like, why don't we just go out and hang out? And he's like, I see you every day. And I was like, that's exactly why we should hang out. We see each other every day because we are working together, but let's go have some beers and some tacos and have some laughs and not work.Michael Jamin:And did you do that?Steve Lemme:Yeah. And it's funny because one of my favorite pastimes is being right over a Kevin. I don't mean in the collaborative sense, but when my point of view is correct and yours is incorrect, which it was in that case, he was like, okay,Okay, fine. Alright, so let's go back to the animation thing. I was saying, I don't even think so with the animations, it took a while for me to get him. He would agree in theory, but then it was like there was never any, whenever he would talk about upcoming projects, I'd always be like, and we should talk about animation one of these days. He'd be like, yeah, okay. And I couldn't get him to engage. And then even I said, finally, let's just sit down. Just give me five minutes. I'm going to go through a list of animation ideas and let's discuss them. He said, okay. And so I sent them to him in advance and literally it was one line. It was like the lumberjacks, it was whatever, and including the one that we're working on. And he said, okay, I like these and that's fine.That's all I needed. And so then I started to flesh those things out and I would show them to him. Now, see, Kevin is a machine. He's a computer, and so if you really want to get his attention, you have to show him a piece of paper with something on it, and he puts it in his pile and he makes a list. And so then a week later I'll be like, have you had a chance to read the thing? And so what Kevin respects is work, which a lot of people do, it's in a creative process. It's like, don't tell me you don't like a joke if you don't have a replacement idea or don't say like, Hey, let's work on something and bother me about it if it's not real, if you just want me to actually make the first step. And so it's like if you give him the first step and it's like, Hey, I've done this work.He respects that, and so he'll read it. So then it was funny then because he was doing, he was editing quasi and we were in the writer's room for season four. You guys are busy. And I said, I'll do all the work on the animation thing. And so it's like I started to flesh it out and then I'd sent him this, the pitch document, here are the characters. And we started to get it together and what we were going to do, and the plan was that during a hiatus, we were going to wind up pitching these two producers who had been the president and vice president of True tv, and they were the ones who bought Tacoma FD and put us on the air, and they'd done everything that Thursday night with us in Practical Jokers. We were winning cable and they were beating t b s, their sister company, and then at t took over and they just got punted.So they did everything and they got fired, but we always had a good relationship and we always said, Hey, we'll work together again. At some point they approached me and they said, Hey, do you want to do some animated? We've got something going. So the idea then I told Kevin was like, we're going to pitch this during the first hiatus. And the hiatus for people who don't know is that after we shoot in blocks, so we shot the first three episodes in one block and Kevin directed all of them, and we took a week off to scout locations for the second block and prep, and that was the block I was directed. And so that was two more episodes, but in that first week, then we were ready to pitch Chris and Marissa. And so even the night before the pitch, I kept saying to Kevin, I was, so tomorrow we are pitching Chris and Marissa.He's like, but it's not like a pitch though. It's a conversation. I was like, well, it actually is a pitch. He's like, but it's not like a formal pitch. We're just talking to 'em. I'm like, no, we're actually pitching them. I'm pitching them the show, but don't worry. I'll do all the talking. And he said, fine. And so the next day we got on the Zoom with them. I pitched them the show, they seemed to love it, and we went our separate ways and they brought it to their studio that they're involved with. And three days later, we found out that studio was going to make an offer, which they did. And then we negotiated that offer for several months, which a lot of people who are not in Hollywood don't realize that sometimes negotiations can take nine months, sometimes a year. In this case, I think it was a six month thing. And in that period of time, we approached you guys, brought you guys in, and then we went to our first meeting with them after the deal. All the deal had been signed and everything. And you remember we were outside?Michael Jamin:Yes.Steve Lemme:Kevin asked me, he was like, have we,Michael Jamin:I asked Kevin, it started, I asked Kevin. Kevin didn't have the answer, so he asked you.Steve Lemme:Yeah, and the question was,Michael Jamin:Have we sold this?Steve Lemme:Have we actually sold this then? And the reason you asked that for people who don't know is most commonly, certainly before the streamers and the network time, there was something called an if come offer. And this was, I think the norm for most people who hadn't done anything. I went to a studio and I said, I've got an idea for a TV show. They might say, Hey, we love it. We're going to make you an if come offer. And what that is is we'll pay you X amount of dollars if a network says they want to do the show. And if not, we're not paying you anything. But because we've made you this offer, you're with us. And that was the norm. And we took that and we would negotiate that. We would negotiate a deal that we're not getting paid on unless somebody else says yes. And it's called an if come offer. And so that was the nature of that question. Have we actually sold this thing? Are we getting paid? And Kevin asked me and I was like, yes, we've sold it. But he put so much doubt into me that it was like, I think we're pitching again.So then we went in and sat with our executive producers, the people who had bought it, the producers who had brought us to them and sold it for us. And I pitched it again, but now I was nervous. I didn't do a great job pitching.Michael Jamin:No, you did great. You did great. And they loved it.Steve Lemme:But then it turns out, yes, we had sold it. We were going to get paid and we were moving forward. So then Kevin was very surprised. He's like, oh, I gave shit about that. And even then, he wasn't totally on board until we saw the animation. We were writing the script and he was like, yes, fine. It's still abstract. But it wasn't until we got into when they sent us potential sketches and artwork for all the characters and the locations and the scenes and settings that he said to me for the first time, this is really cool.Michael Jamin:Oh, good.Steve Lemme:There's a whole other world in Hollywood that we've never been a part of that we're a part of now. I was like, yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah.Steve Lemme:So anyway.Michael Jamin:That's hilarious. How would you decide what projects not to do with them then?Steve Lemme:Oh,Michael Jamin:I don't think, do you have many? You've done some, but why would you not do a project with them?Steve Lemme:It just depends. And it's funny. There are times where I actually think I've said to him, and I mean this, that even if I do something separately, we'll still produce it with our production company. He'll be involved. I have a TV script that I've been working on for a long time that I probably wrote it back in 2009, and it's very much about that period, my high school years when I was at this elite private school and I was feeling like an outsider, but I wasn't an outsider. I had a great group of friends, and I was actually, I hate to say it, but I was fairly popular, but I felt like I didn't belong at this place. I almost felt like an imposter. And we were there, not because we were wealthy, which it was the school full of wealthy people because my mom had been a teacher there, and now she was gone there. So I didn't, they had only given me a partial scholarship when I was three when I first went there. But that's aMichael Jamin:Good idea. I think that could sell. That's a good idea.Steve Lemme:Well, and there was more to it, which is that I also had this job, I worked as a back elevator manBecause one of my friends, his family was so wealthy, they owned all these buildings in New York City, and he got me a job. I made $10 an hour working as a back elevator man slash janitor, luxury high-rise building in New York City that some people from my high school lived at, which was really hard to have them see me. But more importantly, I worked with these guys down in the basement who were lifers. There was a murderer down there who had fled the Dominican Republic. He had decapitated a guy, and he is a great guy. He's a great guy. He had decapitated a guy after a cock fight, he had a fighting bird. And by the way, he's telling me this story with a thick Dominican accent. He keeps saying, and my cock defeated the other guy's cock. And I'm like, whoa, I'm only 15 years old at this point in time. And the guy picked up his dead cock and theMichael Jamin:CockSteve Lemme:His lifeless dead bloody cock. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Flacid cock.Steve Lemme:Yeah. And the claw and the beaker sharpened on these creatures and this guy,Michael Jamin:Did they sharpen them for the fights? Yeah. Wow, that sounds awful. You just made something bad, even worse.Steve Lemme:I know. Well, so then this guy, the loser, picked up his dead bloody flacid, lifeless cock and slapped my coworker across the cheek with it, and the beak cut his cheek. My coworker told me this over lunch break. He was like, I went home and I calmly sharpened my machete and I went to his house and I knocked on the door. He opened the door and I cut his head off and he said, and that is when I came to America.Michael Jamin:Wow.Steve Lemme:Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So I was working down there with these guys, and the irony was that they would get taxes taken out of their paychecks. And I, I was a student, and so I was actually making more than these guys, but they also thought I was a rich kid. I was friends with the owner of the building and they knew that. And to them, I was the richest guy in the world, and I was going to a prep school. I had my whole future ahead of me. So I didn't kind of belong in that world either.Michael Jamin:It's a little flamingo kid.Steve Lemme:There was some flamingo kid there. Yeah. I was also a break dancer and a professional dancer.Michael Jamin:I knowSteve Lemme:That. And I was not really welcome in that community. So anyway,Michael Jamin:Why are you sitting on this? You should get that. Well, there's a strike. I wouldn't wait much longer on it.Steve Lemme:I sent the script out back in 2009, and it was incredibly well received, but this is pre streamers, and I sent it to H B O in Showtime, and I had a meeting with the president of H B O who, she was like, I love your script. I love your script, but I can't do a show about a 14 year old protagonist. And she said, but bring me everything you've got, and this is pre everything interesting. It's pre this new golden age of television. And same at Showtime. I had the same conversation. She's like, the lady was like, I love it. Absolutely love it.Michael Jamin:It was the 14 year old protagonist. That's such an odd thing because everybody hates Chris and Wonder years. There's plenty of shows about,Steve Lemme:But it was R-rated, it was an honest look. It was also part of the pitch was I see all these, when you see high school shows about in New York City, for instance, about a wealthy school, the rich kids are so fucked upAnd so evil and so conniving, and that wasn't my experience. And it was also like, or it's incredibly, incredibly cliquey with the fucking bully rich kids or the scummy fucking drug using druggies. I was like, that wasn't my experience at all, or it's incredibly angst-ridden. And I was like, I feel like there were a lot of incredibly fun experimental times. Yes, there were painful times, but there were also a lot of incredible times, and I never saw a good mixture of those things. Anyway, so I have been, and also the funny thing, the honest part was I made masturbation a heavy part of the show, the Cold Open. My character is masturbating in the shower, and his dad's trying to get inMichael Jamin:AndSteve Lemme:It's like a freeze frame. He's looking at the doorknob and the whole thing is that irony and the hypocrisy of the fact that in high school, your hormones are going raging and you're all masturbating, or the boys certainly were, can't speak to the girls, but no one would talk about it. And so my friends and I would be like, one of my friends would be like, you whack off. I'd be like, fuck no, I don't whack off. I'm not gay. And he's like, no, I know. I've never even touched my dick. I've never even touched my dick. How about you? You whack off. I was like, no fucking way. Do I whack off? And then it's like, but I know you whack off. He's like, fuck you, I don't whack off. And you're like, yeah, you whack off. Everybody's dying to get home and fucking beat off. I was a part of theMichael Jamin:Script dying to get home.Steve Lemme:So I've toned that part down in the script. I literally am revising it right now. I found a great thing that I wanted to include in it, a couple of new things. So I'm writing it. I'm using the strike to write.Michael Jamin:Well, sure. Everyone should be, I guess. But what about you guys also do a lot of standup, which is very different. Do you have a preference to how you spend your days?Steve Lemme:It makes me sad that I haven't done standup in five years.Michael Jamin:Really? Well, what's stopping you?Steve Lemme:Well, now, nothing. And I was thinking about it today, I am like, I should write a new set. Kevin and I filmed our third special right before we sold Tacoma. And when we sold Tacoma, it was when Super Troopers two was coming out. And so we did a few more live shows to promote Tacoma, but then we never had time because then it was like we were writing the season, we got renewed for season two, and then it's like, it's so much work. And even after we write and then we go right into shooting, and then after shooting, the hardest part of the show process is the six months of editing. And then it's like, IMichael Jamin:Think that's the best part. Because you're not on set. It's not as exhausting.Steve Lemme:Well, it's not as physically exhausting. Correct. And I mean, look, now in the days of Zoom, I'm home. I actually, I love it, but there's no time to, that's a nine to 6:00 PM or 11:00 PM job depending on what day of the week it is and what time of the editing process. I'm here with my family. And so it's like we've been fortunate enough to have four seasons where we have a week or two off, and then we have to start getting the writer's room together again. I'm not complaining about at all. I'm not even grousing. The one thing I really enjoyed doing for 10 years before we got that show was standup comedy, which you've done,Michael Jamin:But I mean, I did in college, so I was never at your level where I was touring and booking rooms.Steve Lemme:Well, but you do tour with a one man show and you do.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's a little different. Yeah, it's not standup. Yeah,Steve Lemme:It's a little different, but it's still performing and getting out there and trying out material. I know if you have a story, I mean, I haven't seen your show,Michael Jamin:You must come. But what I find about it is, and I was talking about this with Taylor Swift, she's got this three hour concert, and when I was performing,Steve Lemme:Wait, wait, wait. You talked about this with TaylorMichael Jamin:Swift? No, I said this with my daughter about Taylor Swift's show.Steve Lemme:That's aMichael Jamin:Different big difference. Yeah. I got to clarify. So Taylor Swift's performing in her show is three, three and a half hours long. And so when I was doing my show, it was an hour and a half long, but it's the end of the day. It's at eight o'clock or whatever. The whole day I'm exhausted because I'm nervous. I'm preparing myself. And then at eight o'clock I'm up, and for the next hour and a half I'm giving everything. And then you're fricking then afterwards, you're still on a high, but you're exhausted. And then you got to do it again the next day where you're like, you're wringing your hands all day and you're pacing and then it is exhausting. You don't thinkSteve Lemme:I do. I do. Especially when you do Thursday, Friday, Saturday and the Friday and Saturday you're doing two shows in the nightMichael Jamin:And you're travelingSteve Lemme:And you're traveling. And also what Kevin and I would do is we would do meet and greets after every show, free ones, not like the ones where you pay extra and you get to come backstage. We would go, we'd tell people we're going to do a meet and greet out here after the show, come by and say hi. And so you're meeting half of the people that were at the show. Oftentimes that meet and greet would take an hour or more. She found that to be even more exhausting.Michael Jamin:Do you have a time limit with each person you're meeting and greeting?Steve Lemme:No, not really. I mean, it depends on the club or the theater. Because the first show, there's a natural out. You've got a second show, come on folks, and then you bang people through. And the second show, that's the one where people come up and they want to chug.Michael Jamin:That's kind of your brand, which is like, Hey, yeah, chug. And we're all college bros. But I wonder what's your thinking? You could do the other way. You could put a little separation between your audience and not do a meet and greet.Steve Lemme:You could, and I'm trying to think if there was ever a time where we came up with a reason or we had a reason not to, but I don't think so. There's something like we've always had this philosophy of meeting the fans and Jim Gaffigan once said it. He said, I'll meet them until I can't, meaning, and now he can't. He's justMichael Jamin:Too big.Steve Lemme:He's too big. It's impossible.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael lemin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.But how long? Is it 30 seconds or are you talking to the guy who doesn't want to talk anymore? How do you know when it's time to move on to the next person? There's a line.Steve Lemme:There's all different kinds of people. There's some people who just want to come and take a picture. There's some people who appreciate that there's a line behind them and you got to keep things moving. There's some people who are going to stay and talk to you until you have them move on. You'll be like, Hey, okay, but I hate to do this. Or the club will have security guards and they'll be like, all right, let's move it along. Let's go, let's go. We got a lot of people there. But I think that's something I've never really, I don't know. I've always enjoyed meeting people, and a lot of times I know a lot of my friends are like, oh God, that person's crazy. Don't talk to them. And I'm like, no, that's the person I want toMichael Jamin:Talk to. Really. Did you really, you're not worried about them forming some kind of parasocial relationship with you and wanting to get really close to you?Steve Lemme:I've never had that happen. I mean, there's absolutely, look, I am a man from the planet earth, and I lived here for a long time before any sort of recognition, fan recognition or celebrity, what's happening for me. And so it's like I can tell when I'm having a real connection with a person as opposed to when they're connecting with me and I don't feel it. And I could certainly, I know when mostly now because I'm skeptical and paranoid and cynical that I just assume it's like if anybody tries too aggressively to be friends, it's over for them.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? I see with you, you're very gracious and you're very social way more than me. So you could spend hours with people. I feel like even people you don't like, and I've seen you do that. I've seen you do that actually.Steve Lemme:Well, it depends where we are, but it's not like if you're at a film festival and some producer is like laughing at everything you say, you're like,Michael Jamin:Yeah,Steve Lemme:Okay, we're not friends. It's people that you're just hanging out with. It's funny because have a friend named Champagne, Rob, who we met in Atlanta, and the reason he's called Champagne Rob is because he and his girlfriend came to our show and they were sitting in the front row drinking champagne, and we just ragged on them. We were like, what the fuck is going on here drinking champagne at our show? They're like, yeah, man, we're having a good time drinking some champagne. It was like we had a great interaction with them. And then on the meet and greet line, afterwards, they came to either the late Friday show or the late Saturday show, the late Friday. If you really want to be friends with us, the late Friday show is the one that you might have a crack at it. We don't go out Thursday night and we don't go out Saturday night.Friday night's the one, you don't have to wake up for anything in the morning. So Friday night's the night we'd go after the late show, we'd go out and usually with people that we were friends with in our town and so on This particular night though, after that show, probably Friday night, then they were on the line and I had a joke about, I was talking about male grooming manscaping, and there was a poll given out to the people in the audience. Do you like it groomed or do you like it hairy? I'm like, it's a standup comedy. It's a set routine where I know that some women are going to be like you. It totally shaved. And you're like, well, what's wrong with a hairy one? And they're like, you get hair in your throat. And then my thing would be like, how far down are you going on this thing?And then basically I'm calling 'em the cookie monster of it was the Dick Gobbler is What and how. They're like, mom, I'm just eating a shit out of this dick and getting all the way down there. And that was a routine I was doing. And so Champagne, Rob's girlfriend happened to be that girl. And so then they came up afterwards and they were like, Hey, I'm the Dick Gobbler. And he's like, I'm champagne rob. And we're like, oh. And we had a good laugh on the line and the guy's like, look. And I had some friends there and they were from Atlanta, and they're like, we don't really know where to go. And the guy was like, I know a speakeasy that's literally across the street, literally across the street. Come with me, well have a great time. He's like, I'm not creepy. Let's just go. It's going to be awesome. And we're like, all right, fine. Fuck it. And we went outside and there was his car, and the license plate was Muff diver. It was the fucking,Michael Jamin:But I'm not creepy, I swear.Steve Lemme:And then we went to this speakeasy and had an awesome time, and of course we're hanging out with the guy there because he's gotten us in this place and we're just having drinks. And it was a totally normal hang, and it was like there was no awkwardness and there was no, it was, a lot of times when you meet these people, sometimes they don't then know what to say and they'll just start to ask you about yourself and they'll ask you questions, how did this happen? And how did this happen? And you're like, well, if we can't get past this stage, we'll never be friends and it doesn't get past that stage. So it's like, but this guy's like, yeah, we're hanging out, we're having a great time. And then it's like, whatever. And then it turns out he was a Giants fan, like Kevin and I am, and he showed us a photo of his toilet that he has at home, and in the toilet down at the bottom where the poop hits the bottom of the toilet was a Dallas Cowboys star. And we're like, this guy's fucking hysterical. So anyway, and then it turned out he was a professional, what do you call it, jet skierSponsored by Hooters. And so the whole thing just made perfect sense. It was like,Michael Jamin:Be good friends in this guy. Let me ask though, if you decided you wanted to go on tour comedy wise, whatever, next week, how fast does that happen? Let's say you already have a set let's, you already have material. Do you call someone and it happens? Do you have a booker and it happens?Steve Lemme:Yeah, I would call at a a, I have my standup agent,Which is actually how I got into C A A. I used to be with c a A, and then I went to U T A and I left U T A, and it was because I had a meeting with their standup agent who, I mean, I left U T A first and then I went to c a A, and it was the standup agent was the one who brought me in because at that point in time in 2009, we hadn't done anything. And so he was the guy who was like, oh, I think I can make some money for our agency with this fellow. And so he brought me in there.Michael Jamin:He books, he pimps you out to the various clubs, basically. Is that how that works? I'm surprised. C A A does that. I thought there was a smaller thing that smaller agents did not. Well,Steve Lemme:No, I mean, but there are agents who are bigger than others, so it's like he represents a lot of big people.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Steve Lemme:Big standups.Michael Jamin:So you could just, alright, literally you made a call today in a week or two, you could start touring basically.Steve Lemme:Yes.Michael Jamin:Wow.Steve Lemme:Yeah. But it depends. It also depends on, now it's been five years and we have the show. So the question would be what kind of places can we book? We know we can book the smaller places, we can sell those places out. We always were able to because of the movies that we had made. And so we enjoyed a success there that a lot of standup comedians, a luxury that a lot of that most standup comedians don't have. Because most standup comedians certainly back then had to do the club circuit. And first they would be doing five minutes, and then they strangers to people. So they'd have to make people like them, which to me is like 90% of the battle. Once you've already got the fans, you actually it a little bit more like you're giving a wedding toast. Not that your fans will accept subpar standup comedy, but they're more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt. And if you fuck up, you can just look at them and they'll be like, yeah. And you're like, I know I suck. And they're like, yeah, fuck you. And you're like, fuck you.Michael Jamin:Interesting. That's what Jay is doing now. He's on the road doing standup, right? I mean,Steve Lemme:Yeah, he's in the UK right now. He's actually breaking new ground in that. He's going do a show, a couple shows in England, which is, it's sort of like the logical next step for American standups. You go and do the uk, England, Ireland, Scotland, Australia.Michael Jamin:But you're not really interested in doing that now. I mean, because first of all, it's hard family. How long do you want to be on the road for? Or is that your thinking or No,Steve Lemme:I mean, I love doing standup comedy. I don't love touring. I only liked it because I was with Kevin and I wasn't alone. I did a couple of solo dates, and I found it to be very lonelyMichael Jamin:Because the entire day, you're lonely,Steve Lemme:You're alone. And then at night after the show, it's like if Kevin and I were sort of wired, we could at least go back to the hotel bar and have a beer, or we could go to one of our rooms and smoke a joint or something like that. Whereas when you're alone, it's like you might hang out with the other comedians just fine. People want to make new friends. Or you go out with a staff or you meet a fan or something. Somebody's at the show, I don't know. Or you go out by yourself or you go back to the hotel room, but you're wired and it's a really weird thing to just get in bed and watch TV or something like that. Yeah,Michael Jamin:It's so interesting to be talking about. I don't know, all this is so new to me. The life of a performer for you. It's fascinating to me.Steve Lemme:Well, I think that is, it's funny. The worst standup experience I ever had was I was booked to do a solo weekend in Vermont in Burlington, Vermont. ThatMichael Jamin:Was lovely in the fall. It's perfect.Steve Lemme:It was perfect. And I'll tell you, it was probably, yeah, it was the fall. And what happened was to promote the show, I was interviewed by a Vermont free newspaper,And the journalist asked me all these questions. And so Super Troopers two had been finished, and the studio said, we're going to wait a year to release it, because next year, on April 20th, April 20th Falls on Friday, so we can release the movie on Friday, April 20th on four 20. And so we're waiting for that day, the time to do it. We're like, okay. But they didn't announce the day, and they kept being like, they didn't know when they were going to announce it. And they kept it off, kept putting it off. They kept saying, soon, soon, soon, soon, soon. And it was killing everybody. And so I was doing this interview with this free newspaper, and the guy said, do you know the release date of Super Troopers two? I said, I do, but I can't tell you. And he said, come on, what is it? I was like, I honestly can't tell you. And he's like, come on, please tell me. And I was like, I can't tell you. I'm not going to tell you. And he said, okay. And so then we kept doing the interview, and then the interview was over, and he said, okay, the interview is over. And he said, now, as a fan, can you just tell me? And I said, I can't, I'm not going to, but I'll give you a hint. OhMichael Jamin:No,Steve Lemme:There's a very popular stoner holiday that falls on a Friday next year. And he said, okay. And he was like, that's awesome. I was like, yeah. So then I was flying the next day to Vermont, and when I landed, there was messages, a text message from Heman like, you're in trouble.Michael Jamin:You guys are big mouth. What a puts, whatSteve Lemme:A puts. And then the guy had an even kind of made fun of me. He's like, he wouldn't tell me the release date, but I pushed him and pushed him, and finally he told me it's four 20. And so that Jay was pissed off and my producer was pissed off. The studio was fucking furious. They wanted to announce it make best, but they had all the materials. They just weren't doing it. And so they were like, it was still this little teeny newspaper, a free newspaper, and it was like less week's.Michael Jamin:And you gave them the scoop, this free fucking Vermont mapleSteve Lemme:Syrup. You get in a pizzeria, you just fucking,Michael Jamin:Yeah, I don't, you throw away, you wipe the table with,Steve Lemme:Yeah, get theMichael Jamin:Scoop.Steve Lemme:I was really fucking, this is Thursday. I did a show that night and I was fucking devastated. So I went out there and did a half-hearted show. My heart was heavy, and it was wait and see if anybody picks us up. And then Friday morning it got fucking picked up and was everywhere. And meanwhile, there were email threads with all the studio, the president of the studio and a hundred people from Searchlight, and then all the broken lizard, not me. And even my producer, I was like, dude, I'm suffering over here. You got to tell me what's going on. He just wrote back. He was fucking pissed off. OhMichael Jamin:Wow.Steve Lemme:Yeah, no, it hurt. And I was like, I went jogging that day. And then they released it that day. They did the official release of the trailer and the date, and it got 8 million views in the first fucking 24 hours alone. But nobody was talking to me that whole weekend. I didn't know any of that, but I knew it was out there. But I knew I had rushed the process, but like I said, they had it andMichael Jamin:They just wanted to punish you.Steve Lemme:But then the next week there was a meeting at Searchlight on Wednesday to now game plan, and it was like the big question was, so that weekend fucking sucked. I did press on Friday morning and I did two shows on Friday night and Saturday night, and I had friends coming to the shows and I was so sad. I was sad Steve and I was alone. And the one guy who was kind of forgiving, who was actually totally forgiving was Kevin. And I also say Paul Soder, who you worked on Tacoma. Those guys were not so secretly they were like, you know what? I'm fucking glad you did it. Now it's out there finally. And they were psyched because now we could finally fucking talk about it. We were getting ass about all the time. So those guys were cool about it. The other guys weren't as happy with me. And then the big question was, was I going to go to that studio meeting? And I fucking went. I was like, I'm going to take my poison.Michael Jamin:Let'sSteve Lemme:Go.Michael Jamin:Did they give you shit there?Steve Lemme:I went in and I made the saving Grace was that the trailer got 8 million views in the first 24 hours, and it was like, holy shit. It exceeded, it far exceeded and was now on pace at that moment in time. It was like that actually might have been the actual trailer. This was just a teaser and the announcement and it was huge. And so they were happy about that. That's the only thing that saved me because a couple of 'em, the head of marketing and the president were not that fucking psyched with me.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting because usually they'll try to keep, you're the star of this movie. Usually they try to keep that, they try to hide their disdain from actors. They don't say it in front of their face. It wasSteve Lemme:A big deal and it caused massive shock waves and a shit storm then people had to fucking deal with while I sat there telling jokes. In Vermont,Michael Jamin:That's always the worst when you're, yeah, you have to wait through something. I know that feeling terrible. I've been there before. ISteve Lemme:Was sick. I was sick aboutMichael Jamin:It. Yeah, sick. Yeah, exactly.Steve Lemme:And mad at myself. How could I be so stupid? The whole thing?Michael Jamin:Did you confront that guy and say, Hey, you're a dick.Steve Lemme:No, I wanted to fucking die. I wanted the whole thing to die.But the funny thing was is that then the next internal broken lizard conversation was that because some guys were psyched that I had gotten it out there and the studio was psyched because fucking, it was massive. It was a massive announcement that got all those views and so was then the guys that were kind of mad about it were like, well, don't feel like you did the right thing here. What you did was wrong was like, I know what I did was wrong. I'll never do it again. They're like, so don't feel justified. I'm like, I know, but then guys are looking at each other. But it is pretty fucking sweet. And I definitely did the wrong thing and I would not advise that to anybody.Michael Jamin:Funny. Well, that's so interesting.Steve Lemme:It was an accident. It was an accident.Michael Jamin:Happy accident.Steve Lemme:It was a stupid mistake.Michael Jamin:I have to, this whole thing is that's what I love about you. You're just this open book and you tell, I feel like I get an education at the Hollywood from what you guys do. But tell me this though, as I've taken an hour of your time and you've been very gracious, but as you're, now that you're a showrunner for four Seasons now, and you obviously do a lot of hiring, I got a lot of people who listening to this podcast, sparring writers, what do you look for in a script? What do you look for in a new writer? All that stuff.Steve Lemme:So it's an interesting question for right now, because over the last, when we started with Tacoma, it was really at the beginning. Maybe it wasn't the beginning, but for me as a show runner, when we were putting together the writer's room, diversity was the first and most important thing that we were being told that we had toMichael Jamin:From the studio,Steve Lemme:The network in the studio to incorporate into the writer's room. And it was women, people of color across the board, everythingYou need to do this, which was fine. What I found was that then it used to be that I could, when we had a production deal at Warner Brothers for many years, and it's like you receive these movie scripts that were R-rated comedies and you were looking at, because that's what we were doing and we were going to be producing for other people. So it was like you just get every R-rated comedy sent your way. And so now, because of the diversity thing, we were receiving all kinds of scripts from all kinds of writers, from all kinds of backgrounds. And so it's like I couldn't receive a script from a Korean American woman, girl, young lady, of either whatever her sexuality was, and that experience would be reflected in the script,Which is not something I could relate to. So what I began to look for was the jokes inside the script, where before I didn't really, I could tell jokes and stuff, but I was just looking at the whole thing. Do I like the whole idea and stuff in terms of the scripts I started being sent, they weren't ideas that I could particularly relate to unless it was like, okay, you're the son of an immigrant who's going to a private school where they are out of their element. Okay, that I can relate to. But it was in any script I started to look for what's the type of joke they're telling? Is it a more highbrow joke? Are there a bunch of some dumb jokes? Is it word play? What's the type of humor here? And so that's what I started to look for in terms of the writing material.And then I found when I focused on that actually, but the plot of the script didn't matter at all. It was like, can they tell a story and are the jokes that they're setting up and paying off the type of jokes that I think will work for our show type of jokes, I will. Because it or not, everybody's got a style of humor. And if you're not telling the kind of jokes that I like to tell, it's I'm just not going to funny. And I can't hire you because in the writer's room, everything you're saying, I'm going to be like, it's dead air between us. I don't know. We're not on the same page. So I started to realize I could just look for the type of sense of humor and then nothing else really mattered. So I look for the type of jokes. I like to know that they can tell a story from beginning, middle, and end.And then the other thing is bring the person in. You find those scripts that you like. And then now we're going to do the zoom meeting. And I'll tell you what, if you're the first person I meet, you got the job, got the job. No, but in this case, and as we proceeded through each season, you started to realize that you actually, you do want to meet everybody, but then it becomes a personality thing. Can we riff with each other? And again, it's like it's not so much where you're from or who you are, what you represent. Can you and I have a conversation and have a funny conversation? That's what we look for too. Because as you know, it's like we're 17 weeks in a writer's room together. And the first few seasons we were in the room, and then the last couple of seasons we've been on Zoom. But in collaboration, sometimes there are disagreements and it's like we have to each other. We have to live with each other for 17 weeks, and I have to read your material and you have to accept my criticisms and ideas. And you have to my ideas. Because the truth is, if we're having a disagreement on something, I know who's going to win the argument.Michael Jamin:Yeah. People don't realize that.Steve Lemme:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Young writers often don't realize that the winner of the argument has already been decided. And that person sitting at the end of the table,Steve Lemme:I want to hear you defend your idea, but what I don't want, number one, what I don't want is for you to interrupt me a lot. What I don't want is for you to get mad. If I'm not taking your idea. Also, it's my show. Forget that it's my show. I'm the one whose responsibility is, if my joke sucks, that's my fucking problem.Michael Jamin:Yours.Steve Lemme:Nobody's going to say, wait a second, that joke sucked. Lemme see who wrote this episode. Oh, it's that person. I'm not going to hire them. Doesn't work that way. So like the personality is important,Michael Jamin:Right? Sure.Steve Lemme:And that's it for us. It'

Watch Tacoma FD Thursdays at 10PM on truTV. I'll write something more later.  Get tickets to see Rick Glassman Live in Brooklyn at Union Hall: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/rick-glassman-tickets-696673478127 Liquid I.V., the #1 Powdered Hydration Brand in America, is now available in Sugar-Free. Grab your Liquid I.V. Hydration Multiplier Sugar-Free in bulk nationwide when you go to http://www.liquidiv.com and use code TYSO at checkout. Say goodbye to harsh smoke and coughing attacks by shopping for the smoothest pipes, bubblers, bongs and dab rigs at https://www.thefreezepipe.com and use code TYSO for 10% off your entire order.  Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/takeyourshoesoff

Brendan Schaub and Bryan Callen welcome in Steve Lemme and Kevin Heffernan from Super Troopers fame (or Starship Troopers according to Bryan) and the guys talk Steve's rendezvous with his teacher, Kevin's law degrees, Brendan auditioning for one of their shows, Super Troopers being a cult classic, their new show Tacoma FD, current events around the world and much more! DraftKings - Promo Code: Fighter House Of Macadamias - For a limited time, Fighter and the Kid listeners a free box of 45% macadamia snack bars - one of each flavor - when you visit houseofmacadamias.com/tfak plus 20% off your entire order with code TFAK

Kevin Heffernan of Broken Lizard joins Ralph Sutton and James Mattern and they discuss Kevin Heffernan's new Broken Lizard movie Quasi on Hulu, the hierarchy of the members of Broken Lizard, who Kevin Heffernan would f**k, marry and kill of the Broken Lizard members, how he and Steve Lemme first met, the upcoming season of Tacoma FD, firemen getting their penises caught in things, why fart toys are his favorite gift to receive, working with Michael Clarke Duncan, his favorite movie to film, whether there will be a Pot Fest movie and more before they play a game to see if Kevin Heffernan can match his movie quote to the film where every wrong answer will force Blind Mike to chug a beer!(Air Date: April 19th, 2023)Support our sponsors!YoDelta.com - Use promo code: Gas to get 25% off!To advertise your product or service on GaS Digital podcasts please go to TheADSide.comand click on "Advertisers" for more information!The SDR Show merchandise is available at https://podcastmerch.com/collections/the-sdr-showYou can watch The SDR Show LIVE for FREE every Wednesday and Saturday at 9pm ET at GaSDigitalNetwork.com/LIVEOnce you're there you can sign up at GaSDigitalNetwork.com with promo code: SDR for a 7-day FREE trial with access to every SDR show ever recorded! On top of that you'll also have the same access to ALL the shows that GaS Digital Network has to offer!Follow the whole show on social media!Kevin HeffernanTwitter: https://www.twitter.com/heffernanrulesBroken Lizard Twitter: https://twitter.com/BrokenLizardInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/heffernanlemmeBroken Lizard Instagram: https://instagram.com/BrokenLizardJames L. MatternTwitter: https://twitter.com/jameslmatternInstagram: https://instagram.com/thejamesmatternRalph SuttonTwitter: https://twitter.com/iamralphsuttonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamralphsutton/The SDR ShowTwitter: https://twitter.com/theSDRshowInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesdrshow/GaS Digital NetworkTwitter: https://twitter.com/gasdigitalInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/gasdigital/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Doug welcomes Jay Chandrasekhar, Kevin Heffernan and Samm Levine to the show.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Santino sits down for gobs of fun with the boys from Broken Lizard and stars of Super Troopers, and Beerfest, Kevin Heffernan, Steve Lemme, and Jay Chandrasekhar! We got auto accidents. We got stories about P. Swayz, Snoop Dogg and so much more. Strap in right meow! Also, make sure you check out their new movie Quasi out now on Hulu! #brokenlizard #supertroopers #beerfest #quasi #whiskeyginger #podcast ============================== SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS RABBIT HOLE $5 OFF with Promo Code: WHISKEY https://rabbitholedistillery.com/drizly SQUARESPACE Get that site up and running now! 10% off your order https://squarespace.com/whiskey SUNDAY Get 20% OFF YOUR ORDER! https://getsunday.com/whiskey20 MYBOOKIE Use PROMO CODE: WHISKEY For you 1st deposit bonus! https://mybookie.website/WhiskeyGinger ======================== Follow Andrew Santino: https://www.instagram.com/cheetosantino/ https://twitter.com/CheetoSantino Follow Whiskey Ginger: https://www.instagram.com/whiskeyging... https://twitter.com/whiskeyginger_ Produced and edited by Joe Faria IG: @itsjoefaria Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Timecodes: 00:00:00 Start 00:06:54 John is the Bad Boy of Barstool Once Again 00:23:41 Michael Bolton is a Legend 00:35:04 Richard Jewell and Olympic gear 00:44:21 AITA - Anthony Bass kids popcorn situation 00:56:06 Video Voicemails 01:07:47 Kevin Heffernan and Kat Timpf Interviews +++++++++++++++++++++++ Pirate Water: Go to https://barstool.link/drinkpiratewater to find pirate water in a location near you Sportsbook: Must be 21+ Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLERYou can find every episode of this show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. Prime Members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. For more, visit barstool.link/kfcr

Jay Chandrasekhar, Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme of Broken Lizard join Stugotz, Billy and Mikey A. to celebrate 420 and the release of their new movie Quasi streaming now on Hulu! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jay Chandrasekhar, Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme of Broken Lizard join Stugotz, Billy and Mikey A. to celebrate 420 and the release of their new movie Quasi streaming now on Hulu! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Kippy and Foley are joined by the legendary Kevin Heffernan! Thanks for listening. Love youse guys. Come to a live show! Follow Kevin: https://www.instagram.com/kevinryancomedy/ Follow Foley: https://www.instagram.com/hfoleycomedy/ Live Shows: https://linktr.ee/AreYouGarbage PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/AreYouGarbage MERCH: https://www.bonfire.com/store/are-you-garbage/ Butcher Box: https://www.ButcherBox.com/AYG Promo Code: AYG Rocket Money: https://www.rocketmoney.com/garbage Comedians H. Foley and Kevin Ryan are self proclaimed GARBAGE. Each week a new stand up comedian gets put to the test. Steal shampoo from hotels? Own a George Foreman Grill? Ever worn JNCO Jeans?