Podcasts about kinko

Order my newest book Make Money Easy! https://lewishowes.com/moneyyouCheck out the full episode: greatness.lnk.to/1775"Every day I'm stressed building that business... is it gonna work? Am I gonna have payroll? I don't want that. I'm happy making less money but doing it the way I want." - Noah KaganSuccess isn't just about the money—it's about designing a life you actually want to live. Noah Kagan, founder of AppSumo, reveals the counterintuitive truth about what separates millionaires from billionaires and why the most successful entrepreneurs focus obsessively on just one thing. After studying countless business titans from the founder of Ethernet to the creator of Kinko's, Kagan discovered that billion-dollar success stories share two critical elements: unwavering focus on a single opportunity and choosing markets with endless demand and repeat customers.But here's the twist that will challenge everything you think about entrepreneurship—some of the wealthiest founders lived in constant stress for decades, questioning whether true success means sacrificing your peace of mind for profit. Kagan's journey from his anxious twenties to his calm forties offers a roadmap for ambitious professionals who want to build wealth without burning out. Learn why "boring businesses" in billion-dollar markets like lawn care and pool maintenance might be your ticket to freedom, and discover the profound definition of success that has nothing to do with your bank account balance.Sign up for the Greatness newsletter: http://www.greatness.com/newsletter

On this week's episode: A Monster Roll Atlantic City Tony Leo We also touch on Chicago, Kinko's, Uno's, Durango, Biloxi prep, Monroe and Ed watches zero NBA. Call The Casino Tears Vent Line 229-NO SEVEN (667-3836) Now! Leave a message, ask a question or simply get something off your mind -  We might even play it on air!! NEW EPISODES DROP WEEKLY ON TUESDAYS - Please visit our home page at casinotears.com for more info, merch, and host contacts Extended versions will also drop Tuesdays on Patreon - Don't miss out :) Email: noseven@casinotears.com Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/CasinoTears Pro Shop: https://www.casinotears.vegas/shop/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/casinotearspodcast YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@CasinoTears X: https://x.com/CasinoTears Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/casinotears Color Comin' In: https://www.cci.vegas/

This is the audio version of our breakdown of Mickey 17, where things get cloned, chaotic, and comical. For the full visual experience, catch the video on YouTube. In this episode of the TruVue Podcast, we go deep into Bong Joon Ho's sci-fi mind trip Mickey 17, where being disposable is just part of the job. Starring Robert Pattinson as Mickey Barnes, an “Expendable” in a colonization mission to the icy planet Niflheim, this clone gets brought back to life every time he dies. But what happens when the new version meets the old? Spoiler alert: it's a corporate Kinko's nightmare with identity issues. We break down what it means to be duplicated, discarded, and still expected to perform. From clone ethics to class systems in space, we ask all the wrong questions and make all the right jokes. This ain't just sci-fi—it's about the workplace hustle on intergalactic steroids.

Today's Episode The professional world is changing fast, and gone are the days of going to Kinko's to print out 20 copies of your resume on special paper you bought at Office Depot before mailing them off to potential employers. Now, businesses large and small use software called Applicant Tracking System (ATS), a form of artificial intelligence (AI) that scans resumes for keywords before they are reviewed by hiring managers. According to the Harvard Business School, 75% of resumes are rejected by ATS, with 88 to 94% of highly qualified applicants being rejected by the algorithm before a human lays eyes on them. About Dr. Castonguay Dr. Brittany Castonguay, owner and CEO of Strategic Human Resources & Innovations (SHRI), shares expert tips and tricks to understand how AI is being used by employers, and what you can do to beat the algorithms and land your dream job! Before founding SHRI, Brittany served as a Human Resources officer in the Air Force for 8 years. Brittany is a quick-witted and charismatic leader who uses her authenticity to relate to people at different levels. She holds a doctorate in Global Leadership and Change from Tiffin University. Her educational expertise covers Generation Z and supporting a multi- generational workforce. As an HR officer in the Air Force, Brittany held various positions as an Executive HR Director, managing the entire HR lifecycle and human capital programs. Prior to commissioning into the Air Force, Brittany was a Compliance Manager for juvenile justice programming, where she oversaw mental health and substance abuse programming for 12–19-year-old teenage boys and girls. SHRI: www.strategichrinnovations.com  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brittany-castonguay/ About Becca Spahr Becca Spahr is a dynamic keynote speaker and leadership coach dedicated to helping professionals build and lead amazing teams. With a 20-year career as a U.S. Marine Corps officer, Becca gained extensive experience leading men and women in high-pressure, fast-paced environments—experiences that shaped her belief in the power of approachable and authentic leadership. Her mission is to teach leaders how to inspire high-performing, cohesive, and happy teams without sacrificing authority or accountability. More from Dr. Raj www.BeyondThePearls.net The Dr. Raj Podcast Dr. Raj on Twitter Dr. Raj on Instagram Want more board review content? USMLE Step 1 Ad-Free Bundle Crush Step 1 Step 2 Secrets Beyond the Pearls The Dr. Raj Podcast Beyond the Pearls Premium USMLE Step 3 Review MedPrepTGo Step 1 Questions MedPrepTGo Step 2 Questions Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dear Ones,It is with great joy, and also a deep feeling of change, that I tell the story that lead to our first Certification Teacher Training, Color of Woman. I would be honored for you to hear my story and why it matters, and how it may intersect with your story. Get a cuppa tea, and a journal and come listen. Applications open on the Full Moon Lunar Eclipse. Get on the list and watch your inbox, I am offering 20 live interview sessions with me. WarmlyShiloh Sophia Transcipt:The Rise of the Sacred Feminine through the Intentional Creativity LineageIn 2010, my family and I did something outrageous. We developed an intuitive painting process dedicated to revealing the Sacred Feminine within each woman. Any woman could learn it for themselves, and teach others how to do this step-by-step process. This was a journey to direct knowing and awakening to soul. You might wonder why this matters. Well, let me tell you! In the past 10,000 years of patriarchal oppression, the image and story and ceremony of women has been under attack. This is evidenced and measured in the statistics beyond counting. But there's something more. Being silenced, burned, and scorned, and altered into an image of ourselves we barely recognize is caught up in our bones and has greatly impacted our capacity to truly see and be ourselves. The colonization plan was not just about land and culture, but about women's bodies and brains and the children that they give birth to. Yet, we are remembering now because we have to and we want to.This has been a long journey to arrive here for many of us. It is certainly in the best interest of dominant systems for women's voices to be twisted and unable to be heard, but we know better. Let's continue to become a danger to the establishments!The reclamation of women and our access to our power is directly connected with chosen Self-Initiation. We literally take ourselves on a Journey of Remembering. We have to. There are many ways to say yes to that experience, and one of them is through the healing arts and defined lengths of time within which we commit to ourselves and our self-expression. Most women... with dedication, can arrive at their awakening on their own, but it is best in the company of other women on the path. That's where we come in. I was shown by my two mothers and that I have spent my life sharing with women and their families, a journey toward awakening to our fullness. Gifts being passed from hand to hand and heart to heart. In the first certification training we ever offered in 2010, Color of Woman, we taught women how to recreate themselves in their own image, their own story, and their own way of creating ceremony and how to design their own workshops, courses, and circles. This nine-month journey of reclamation created a Sheroe's journey so that women could curate their own identity and design their legend for their lives. It was an astonishment to all who have taken the training. Really. We continue to be amazed.Every year I consider not continuing, and then every year I continue, because of the impacts. But this truly is the last year. Other things will rise up, but this is ready to complete. But it will be passed to all of you, and you will pass it to those you choose. The part that's completing is not the teaching of Intentional Creativity, but the Certification Trainings. For those of us called to be guides, helpers, and healers, in the process of discovering ourselves, we develop a hunger to share this gift of revelation with other women. How many breakthroughs have you had where you almost immediately wanted other women to know, but for them to have to not work so hard to know it? You share what you learned. That's how I felt when I awakened to my Soul Calling. I was 23. I was a total failure at art college. I thought I was doomed to work in an office until my moms, the Poet Mother, Caron and the Painter Mother, Sue called me to the mountain. For one year, they taught me to access image and language for myself. I call this Mother Tongue. My own style, narrative, and true essence began to emerge. A fire in my heart was lit in relationship to the sacred women and the Sacred Feminine.I realized that She, the Sacred Feminine, hadn't really gone anywhere. It was us who had lost sight of Her, but it was enforced, and She was removed from our lives with intention. Her groves burned, churches built over Her ruins, Her temples destroyed, Her images buried, burned, and marred. Her story is turned into myths where She is subjugated to him. Lies. No more. She was always in every single culture in the entire world since the beginning of humans. The removal of the feminine as equal from spiritual traditions and governmental positions and leadership frameworks has truly had one of the most devastating impacts we could conceive of.We are seeing it and feeling it now in new ways. FYI, if you think the narratives like this are somehow radical or feminist, please check your own narrative. Because women give birth to the children, and the children become the ones who guide the future. Respecting women is not a political position. It is rational humanity.After that year of initiation, I had a fine art career for 15 years with galleries and had incredible success. I sold hundreds of paintings and reached hundreds of thousands of people with my books. Then I gave it all up for a time to teach other women what I knew and felt. I thought I could keep both going, but I couldn't. I had to turn towards teaching instead of selling my paintings. I realized that what women really wanted was to do it for themselves, not just buy my paintings. The gifts of feminine power were were within reach.And, quiet as it's kept, you didn't need to have talent in art and writing to do this work. You just needed to be brave as you wield the brush and the pen, shaking in your boots about what's about to emerge. What is true within you will emerge in a specific sacred container as a quest to the heart of your Soul Work. That which is yours to cause and to create. It is women who make this sacred container for other women, women who have been on their path and have tested and proven the journey they offer as a pathway for other women.We aren't some kind of pop-up certification program developed by AI to entice women to empowerment. We have been doing this work for generations. We have a lineage. My two mothers were taught by their two mothers. You don't have to be an artist or a writer to create paintings and stories. We show any woman how to access this deep wellspring of remembering and claiming within herself to reveal her greatest work. Of course, it isn't really about painting and writing. That is simply the matter-based ritual we use to awaken ourselves to the energies living within us that are seeking expression.One of our graduates, Kerry Lee, calls this art with purpose. It's intentional creativity. I'm inviting you to join us for Color of Woman 2025. It will be our last training of its kind. Each woman will travel around the Alchemical Compass to meet five creative Sacred Feminine archetypes and create five major paintings. And she will make a book, her own book, hard copy and digital, of her story and images and teachings, a portfolio. Each woman will also design her own content with teachings and her own course for the workshops and circles she wants to lead. Have you heard of Jung's red book, where it all began? Each woman will create her own red book.We are deeply in need of visionary leadership from women who have done their work to Become. This approach, which we call Intentional Creativity, works within any field and any medium. It doesn't actually have to be painting. It's a philosophy. It's a lifestyle. Educators and healers from all fields, therapists, doctors, shamankas, plant medicine women, coaches, corporate C-suite career women, mamas, grandmas, and school teachers, can all use this approach to bring their work to life in living color so that she may live the colors of woman. Her own sacred feminine presence and soul rememberings. I remember when I made my very first book by the same name, Color of Woman. I was 25. I was trying to figure out what the title would be as I stood at Kinko's at midnight creating my first 25 copies, which were already sold to therapists who wanted me to put my images into a book. It was my mother, Caron who said, you should call it Color of Woman. (it had a blank cover of hand-made paper with rose petals and I hand-painted very title). Thank you Aletheia Mystea, the County Health Therapist who saw the value in my art and asked me to make a book for the women you were working with).Consider joining us for the 2025 COLOR of WOMAN cohort and graduating in 2026. You can take Color of Woman to certify to teach the Intentional Creativity Method, or you can take it as a journey for personal transformation and self-initiation. We've never offered this before, but since this is our last year, that's what we're doing.You will create a body of work, which is the work of a lifetime, the work of more than one lifetime. This training brings all the pieces together from all the areas of your life, weaving them with red threads into the fabric of creation that we as women co-create. You begin to see the through line of all of your life experience, all the jobs, all the workshops, all the lovers, all the moves, all the books you read, and all the revelations you had all along the way. It can all come together when you answer your Soul Calling.If you've been dreaming of designing your own courses and want to include self-expression, if you've been leading circles and clients in self-discovery and you want to take your work to the next place on the journey, if you are a woman ready to articulate her body of work in the world in an outrageously powerful way, then join us.At the beginning of a journey, there's excitement and fear and the feeling of possibility. A portal begins to open. But I want to take you to the completion so that you'll know what you will have in your hands. * You will have a real book with all of your paintings and the story you choose to tell.* You will have the articulation of your content in the form of teachings that can be passed on. * You will have the capacity to lead Red Thread and Sacred Circles in any demographic. We have a over 200 page manual on ways to lead and monetize circle in any setting. * You will have enough paintings for a solo show.* You will work with the Color of Woman Intentional Creativity Guide, our manual, which will show you everything that we've learned to this point and be able to use it to lead your own experiences. You will have $100,000 Visionary Business plan for your workshops and private clients so you can create life work from your gifts at a new level.* You will have experienced a community of women who have your back and are doing their own work. * You will become initiated in a cultural lineage designed to last for the next 500 years. We are imagining a world where women are equal, of course. Yet the truth is that women being in collaborative power with their own destiny will influence the lives of every single human who is a part of Earth. All life comes from a woman's body, heart, and mind. When women are vital to every decision and central to every culture, we will have the world we seek. Until then, we begin with summoning the guides.Let's let our imagination soar to show us the path ahead. This legacy and lineage of art matriarchs has been the gift of a lifetime. I invite you to become one of the Art Matriarchs in the lineage of Intentional Creativity. While we center the education on women, graduates can choose to share the gifts with anyone they choose.Lots of our graduates work with women, children, elders, gender fluid, and all of the above, as long as they can hold a paintbrush and a pen. I close with this quote from Carl Jung regarding the Red Book. This is at the beginning of the Red Book and also at the beginning of the Intentional Creativity Guide.“My entire life consisted in elaborating what had burst forth from the unconscious and flooded me like an enigmatic stream and threatened to break me. That was the stuff and material for more than only one life. Everything later was merely the outer classification, the scientific elaboration, and the integration into life.” Carl Jung, The Red BookColor of Woman and the ceation of your own Red Book is the stuff and material for more than only one life. Join us for the breakthrough of a lifetim! With all blessings to the art ancestors who walked before us. We're doing the work. I hope I make you proud. With love, Curate Shiloh SophiaOur team for 2025Thank you Mary MacDonald for the continual support and vision.Thank you Jenafer Owen for the impeccable delivery of this work.Thank you Amber Bonnici for continuuing the legacy of unleashing the power of women.Thank you NaaKwarley Amissa for standing by me and us and all women.Thank you Liz Chamberlain for being the younger generation to carry this work forward in full color.Thank you trish O'malley for seeing and being the work working in all the ways it does. Get full access to Tea with the Muse at teawiththemuse.substack.com/subscribe

You've maybe bought Flamin' Hot Cheetos. But have you bought Cheetos the breathe fire hot enough to melt boulders? If so, head over to Kinko's and get that thing laminated, because you've got a real treasure on your hands. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You've maybe bought Flamin' Hot Cheetos. But have you bought Cheetos the breathe fire hot enough to melt boulders? If so, head over to Kinko's and get that thing laminated, because you've got a real treasure on your hands. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode of the Matthews Mentality Podcast, host Kyle Matthews sits down with legendary entrepreneur and business leader Gary Kusin. Gary shares his inspiring journey from co-founding globally recognized brands like Babbage's (which evolved into GameStop) and Laura Mercier Cosmetics to leading Kinko's transformation and its eventual sale to FedEx. This discussion covers Gary's early life experiences, pivotal career decisions, the challenges and triumphs in the business world, and his unwavering commitment to giving back to underserved communities. Tune in to hear about his incredible professional arc, key lessons learned, and his insights on fostering a success-driven mentality.

Emily sat down with Gary Kusin, a mentor, investor, entrepreneur, and author of "Always Learning." Gary shares his journey from co-founding GameStop to launching Laura Mercier Cosmetics and leading FedEx & Kinko's merger. Hear the lessons and strategies that helped him build global brands and turn around struggling businesses. If you're an aspiring entrepreneur or a seasoned business owner, Gary's insights on leadership, marketing, and innovation are sure to inspire and provide helpful guidance. More about the episode Theme Music by Ali Schwartz and Meserole Sound

In this powerful episode, Kiera is joined by John Jackson, executive director of Defy Ventures, Utah. John shares his history as a criminal, the time he spent incarcerated for his crimes, and how he found the power to change. Kiera and John met through a Tony Robbins' Business Mastery earlier this year, and Defy Ventures is one of the nonprofits the Dental A-Team is donating to through its Live to Give program this year. About John: Correctional officials once labeled John “the worst of the worst.” As he served 18 years in prison, John rose through the ranks of his gang by honing his leadership skills. After four years in solitary confinement, John realized that building his criminal resume would only lead him to life—and death—in prison. He made the dangerous and unpopular decision to step away from criminal activity while incarcerated at Pelican Bay, a notorious supermax prison in California. Since his release from prison in 2019, John served as the director of sales and fundraising at Hustle 2.0, helping to scale the organization from two prisons in California to 700+ jails and prisons in 47 states, serving 13,000+ incarcerated men, women, and youth. He co-authored 11 books. The curriculum provides holistic rehabilitation and healing for people in America's most dangerous prisons, offering a pathway to college. John delivered a TEDx at Cornell University about ending the generation cycles of incarceration.   Today, John serves as the executive director of Defy Ventures, Utah, leveraging entrepreneurship to help incarcerated people transform their lives. He uses his story of courage and transformation to create hope for those who have been written off and forgotten by society. Episode resources: Learn more about Defy Ventures Reach out to Kiera Tune Into DAT's Monthly Webinar Practice Momentum Group Consulting Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Become Dental A-Team Platinum! Review the podcast Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00.234) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. if you don't know, Dental A Team has a portion of our company called Live to Give. And every single year, our company goes and looks for organizations or places that I believe in that I feel can give a greater impact in this world. We've done a Make-A-Wish for a child who had stomach cancer one year. We have done Stuff for Santa within our communities. We have done   scholarships for people. And every single year we did a coat drive with all of our clients and we were able to give so many coats to cold families. And this year I met an incredible man named John from Defy Ventures. And John was an incarcerated criminal for 17 years. He was at maximum security. He was in solitary confinement for four years and he was sent to Pelican Prison, which is the number one like federal prison in California where it literally is like a resume builder for prisoners, but that is like the top of the top.   He was in gangs and he has actually come out of prison and his five years since his release date. And he has a company called the Five Ventures where literally they help incarcerated criminals turn their skills that they've learned in prison into something good and to build businesses. And it's such an incredible company. It's probably not the one that I ever imagined that I'd be recommending or talking to you about, but.   I'm bringing John on the podcast. John is a dear friend. met him and I just was so inspired by him of who he is as a person. And then also if you want no affiliation with our company with them, but just a cause of Live To Give where we donated as well. But you are able to sponsor an incarcerated criminal if you want to be able to give them the entrepreneurship skills and you're able to give back to an organization that I believe is trying to stop generational crime. The US has actually more in cart.   our 5 % of the world's population and yet we have 25 % of the world's crime. And just watching how our world is going, if there are people like John who were incarcerated themselves and have been able to turn and become a force for good and to be able to do incredible things for this world, it might be something incredible for you. I am literally so excited to bring you guys today's guest. This is someone that I met a couple of months ago at Tony Robbins Business Mastery.   The Dental A Team (02:19.04) little plug we did freaking win john so we are the winners will show you our trophies. Yeah, bring the trophies up. But john was actually the reason that we won and we were helping support his company which is defy ventures. But john has such an interesting story. And literally I had the most life changing experience talking to john and so I'm so excited to welcome john I there's like so much more I want to say about your intro but I'm let you tell your story more than me enjoying you. But welcome to the show john how are you today?   I'm doing awesome. I have a huge smile on my face because I'm really excited. First is good to see you and second to be on your podcast to get to share with you. Getting to share that win on stage at Tony Robbins was definitely a highlight of my life. So thank you for supporting us and all in pushing us to promote while we were there as well. And I think you're back to back. You're on the back to back winning team, I think, two years in a row now. We're technically three for three, John, but   our win this time was the first one I got the trophy for. So thanks for making the trophy happen. Like I won them all the times, but, and it's funny because my friend that I had first, which some of the podcast listeners may have heard Pierce, Pierce had said trophy and we took a picture and he's like, here, I'm just going to take it home and then I'm going to ship it to you. And I was like, okay, Pierce, that's great. Cause Pierce is like freaking seven feet tall. So of course when Tony brought out the trophies, he like grabbed one. I'm not quite as tall.   And so I was like, no problem, Piers. And then Piers did a freaking podcast with me a little while ago. And those of you who watched it, Piers has his trophy right behind us on the podcast. And I was like, I remember that trophy, Piers. John, like this was like, and this we're talking, that was 2019. So this was five years in the beginning. But John, okay, Defy Ventures, you guys, we're gonna go into prison talk. John, I need you to tell your story. I'm gonna let you tell it. I'm gonna ask you like a thousand questions.   I literally felt like I interviewed you before the win. didn't know we were going to win at business mastery. For those of who don't know business master is an event that Tony Robbins puts on and you go to this event. This is actually in 2019. I went there literally skyrocketed Dental A Team to where we are today. but I learned so much about business and what you're doing is you're at this conference. It's running from like, gosh, 10 AM until 2 AM in the morning. Like it's insane. And while you're there learning content, you're also supposed to be building a business within. It is like the most exhausting thing that you've ever done.   The Dental A Team (04:38.688) And John's business was the one that we did this year of DeFi Ventures. And it was so cool. But John, tell your story because I'm not going to do you justice other than the fact that like this man came from one of the craziest prisons and I'm just beyond blown away of who you are as a person and the background story that you have. So John, tell us all like your little history, not little. It's like nuts. And now we're sitting here. You're a free man today on a podcast with me. Like literally the irony and the magic of your life is just inspiring to me.   Thank you. Thank you. I just reiterate, I really am so grateful that we got to share that experience and Business Mastery has been, it has been a force accelerator for me as well. And whether it's through fundraising or just growing the impact that I want to have. So I'm really grateful that I get to do that and get to be a part of that experience. But yes, I'd love to share a part of my story. And I just start from, you're to have some highs and some lows here, but I promise we'll get to the end of it and it's a happy ending.   but it started, like the most striking memories for me, start when I was 11 and it's, you know, from my mom kissing me, tucking me in a bed, kissing me good night and her going to work. she was a waitress at Denny's. worked the graveyard shift. So I get up the next morning and I'm on my way to school and on my way to school, I see my mom's car parked on the side of the road and I go look in and it was her murder scene. So that was.   I was 11 years old. I never knew who my father was. So after my mom was murdered, I went to live with my aunt. And my aunt was a drug dealer. She was an entrepreneur. And she was a really good entrepreneur. She just used her skills in the wrong way. But when I was 17 years old, I was in the car with her. And we both get pulled over. She's got drugs in the car. And I can remember the cop.   walking up and my aunt leaning over and telling me, if the cops find the drugs, tell them they're yours. She was already on probation. So her getting caught with drugs again was going to send her to prison. So I already lost my mom, right? I didn't have a father. I didn't want to lose my aunt too on top of that. So when the cops found the drugs, I lied and I said they were mine. And my aunt watched as I was handcuffed and put in back of a cop car. Now's my first time being arrested.   The Dental A Team (07:06.285) got to jail, 17 years old slap on the wrist, right? If my first time being arrested, I get released about two weeks later, but something that my aunt did was she praised me. She's like, good job. This is what you do for your family and you protect your family. And looking back now, I know like it's the opposite. She's supposed to protect me. First. not, I'm not, I'm not bashing her for selling drugs or doing anything like that, but having me take the drug charge. was, that was something very different.   but I knew at that time, I'm all in like a criminal lifestyle. This is what I'm going to do. And before the end of that year, I'd committed four armed robberies and I've been convicted of seven families. at 17, I was sent to a maximum security prison in California. So that's, that's kind of like, that's another like pivotal moment in my life is going to prison at 17. Yeah. Okay. There's more that comes and John like sitting here, I remember, so I meet you.   Yeah, I had some like biases. You were we're at Tony Robbins, our mutual friend told us about you. And you just told me some things that Tony Robbins you're like curious like K cradle the grave. Like that's the prison lifestyle. So at 17, had you graduated high school? Or were you still a senior in high school? Or school? I dropped out of school. Seventh grade is the last grade I completed. Stop for real. You see your mom. You're like I'm out your aunt probably different lifestyle.   Okay, so 17, you're starting to do all these things. So how does this work? Tell me from 17 to basically like, how what happens next? You like you get involved? I'm guessing criminal lifestyle? Like, how did you decide to go from like, Johnny from the block? was like literally like going to school. Now you're like in full blown criminal, but I might you're gonna take care of your family have no father, have no mother like this is the family. So you're going to adapt to family life. What happens after you're sent to like, how long are you in prison?   And by the way, you guys, I did ask John of anything that, cause I would, I'm so nosy. I'm so curious about this. And when we were talking at Tony Robbins before we ended up winning, I thought it was actually really awesome. Cause I got to hear your entire story even more so. And then we go on stage and we win. And it even more of a magical moment of like, I didn't feel like we won the conference. I feel like we won your life and like to see you have a very different life than like the path that you were on is why I wanted you on the podcast. Because I remember when we were talking, John,   The Dental A Team (09:33.453) like I had actually had a really rough summer. and I had had like some really hard times. And I remember looking at you and I'm like, John loves himself so much. And you have told me some stories and I'm like, if this man can learn to love himself, like you're such an example for all of us of like, you don't have to be on the path that you were set on. No matter what we've done in life, like we can still have these happy lives.   And I just wanted to bring you on for like hope for people, but also like to learn from your stamina and your grit. And then we are also talking about how the prison and the mob, you're like freaking brilliant at systems. Like the businesses they run are freaking genius, just a little bit on the wrong side. okay. 17. have a question real quick though. have a question. You said you had some biases. can you share, are you comfortable sharing what some of those were? Like what do you envision of a person who's formerly incarcerated or gang member or any of things? What pops up in your mind?   I mean, it's a great question, John. And like, it's slightly embarrassing, but I think it's real. You're a male, I'm a female. I'm told that you're coming here and you just came out of maximum prison. How long has it been? Like what? Two years? Five years. Year two, five years. But there's a question of like, has this man really changed? Or is he going to, and like, especially as a female, like I'm very cautious of who I spend time with. And at certain conferences, full transparency, I have had men.   approach me in ways that are just not appropriate. And I felt uncomfortable around men at even some of the conferences we go to, which I think is just a female's life. And I think a lot of female would probably feel that way. So when our mutual friend Casey told us that he's bringing you to this conference, John, I'm not gonna lie to you. I was like, I'm gonna have my like guard up of like, I'm sure he's a changed man. But at the same time, I also don't want to be dumb and naive, especially as a female and like you came from maximum prison security. And so   I know we can have these honest conversations. And then I met you and who you are as a person. And I was like, this guy deserves everything in the entire world. And that's actually freaking what Defy Adventures is about is like helping incarcerated criminals have a life that's real. like, John, like it is scary because some people like the world is manipulative. The world. want to say about that. me say it's embarrassing. I don't think I hope you don't feel that way because I think what I what I see in that is or what I hear from that. That's   The Dental A Team (11:51.501) That's much of what society paints with it. They just take a brush and they just paint it movies and TV and politics and anything else. They're really good at othering and saying, this is just who everybody is, right? Every single one of them are this terrifying, scary human being. And that's just not the case. But we've been so conditioned to believe that. And then you also just to like...   just to affirm your experiences, that is true. As a female, you go to these conferences and men are, put you in uncomfortable situations and that's a nice way to put it. Just total sleazeballs, I guess, can be unprofessional and not nice. And you think, well, if that's a business person, if that's a CEO, if that's this person, what's this person coming out of prison gonna be like? I mean, it's not wrong. It's accurate.   And it's also scary. How do you know to trust them? Right? Because criminals are literally built upon lies. They're built upon conniving. mean, criminals are like the best salespeople you'll ever meet. And so it's like, how do you trust that this person's truly genuine and that they are changed and that they're not going to like rob me or rape me or steal from me or like find out where I live and send a gang after me. Like I think those are real things, but I also think, like you said, a lot of it's the media.   And I also think that that's why it's hard for incarcerated people when they come out to even have a chance in a shot at life, which is why I think it really is cradle to grave, like you said, because society just throws you right back into that. And like there's stories that you hear of people that are in their hometowns, they leave and they become these incredible people, they come back to the hometown and people put them right back into the shadows that they were in before they left. And they never amount to anything. And I actually feel like that's very similar for you, but like,   How do we trust in society of like, are you a good person? Like, are you good or are you not good? I wanna give you the benefit of the doubt, but I also don't want to like be burned and regret my decisions. I think there's ways to do that, right? I think if we imagine like who would wanna be known for the worst decisions they ever made, like if all of our stuff was ever laid bare, I doubt we would ever trust, there would be very little trust in this world if every decision that you had ever made, you, myself or anyone.   The Dental A Team (14:14.829) every lie you ever told, everything you ever was just like, hey, before we start having a conversation, I just want you to read this extended list of all the bad choices I've made. And then let's see if you're to invest in me as a person or you can get to know me. People would probably kick us out. It wouldn't. But it's our judgment, right? And we can protect ourselves. We don't need to give people our addresses and invite them to our homes or anything like that. It's not.   But it does mean that like as an entrepreneur or people who can hire and who own companies, you can interview people. We have processes for that to check background checks and ways to check and see where people are at and see about their transformation and test them before we bring them closer into our fold. No, absolutely. I think it's brilliant. And that's honestly why I brought you on because I think sometimes the biggest critic is ourselves too. so yes, we can be judgmental of other people, but like you said,   I mean, we all have laundry lists that we wouldn't be proud of. I just think criminals are painted in such a bad light. And I mean, for good reason, right? Like there are things that are done that shouldn't be done. But I also think that like you said something so paramount when we were talking in Florida and you said like, because I remember I asked you point blank, was like, John, how can you love yourself with everything that's happened? And maybe you can answer that question for people because this hit me to my core. And I was like, we're gonna have the podcast once so can re listen to this over and over.   But two, think so many people feel this way. I mean, you've done some pretty heinous things in your life, and yet you still love who you are, and you're still one of the happiest people. The light and life that you exude is just contagious. So how did you come to that? How did you come to that realization of, yeah, I've done all these things, but I still love me as John, and I love who I am, and I'm proud of who I am? Yeah. So two things. can have remorse over the things that I've done. I have done.   bad things in my life that have hurt a lot of people and caused a lot of harm and destruction. And first it starts with ownership. But yes, I did those things. It doesn't matter that I was a kid, right? was a dangerous kid. So full radical ownership. But yes, I committed robberies, I hurt people, and I continued that pattern and that behavior while I was incarcerated. The second part is I wouldn't be who I am today had I not done those things. Had I not spent 18 years in prison, had I not done   The Dental A Team (16:38.347) had I not lived that life, I wouldn't be able to use my experiences to serve other people, to help you, Kiera, see that, not all formerly incarcerated people are bad. Like we are, like, please don't paint us all with the same brush. So I love myself. I get to use my story. get to use my experiences to show other people, hey, you can make it to the other side of this. There is a way out. It won't be easy, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. And I get to show other people who have never experienced that world, look.   Not everyone is that way. If we give them a chance and we invest in people, can be great. Is that some word on the lines with my answer? Yeah, exactly. I also love like, John, I'm curious, Kay, so you're incarcerated at 17. Is that when you were sent in? How long was your sentence at 17? It was 16 years originally. 16 years originally. Did you get out?   And then back in, because you said you were 18 years in prison, how did this work out? Or did you like just get more time extended to you? I got more time added to my sentence. So when I was originally incarcerated, it was for a 16 year prison sentence. And from the start, when I got to prison, I think you can imagine, actually, so incarcerated 17, made it to prison at 18. And like, it was a consecutive sentence. But when I got there, I engaged in violence, I joined a gang, I did all the things that I shouldn't have been doing.   And that got time added onto my sentence, which was like getting, I four years of solitary confinement for my gang involvement. And it just kept piling up and piling up. But I didn't at the time, I don't have that long term, that foresight to see like, I'm 17, 18 years old. It's 17, 18 years from now, I'm still going to be in prison. That doesn't make any sense. That doesn't register for a 17 or 18 year old at the time.   So basically your life of crime was pretty much just a year of your life. Like if we like really boil it all down, I mean, and it was probably a pretty wild year of your life. And I think getting into the prison, it's like perfect. And then like you and I talked about games. I was getting in trouble. That's somewhat accurate. I got sent to prison because of what happened in that short time period. But I committed more crimes, although I was committing crimes all the way up until my last conviction was actually in 2014.   The Dental A Team (19:00.589) where I felt the conviction. And that's while I was incarcerated. like, I hadn't changed. I was still doing the same things all the way up until 2017 is when I made a pretty radical change in my life. Interesting. Okay. Like I said, I brought John on here. I'm so curious because it's so fascinating to me. Like, I think people just assume that they're going to be how it is.   Like, so when you got put into prison, did you plan like, got it, I'm gonna be here for 18 years, I'm gonna get out and be back in here. Or like, what was the thought process of you're being incarcerated? You've sentenced, you had four years of solitary confinement, and you're still doing things like, is it just like life? that like the job? Is that like the status within the That's what you said right there, it's life. Like, it's like, you know what you signed up for. It's like what you signed up for, it's part, it's just part of the deal, right? Like going to solitary confinement.   Like, so basically when you go to prison and you join the gang, the expectation is like, well, blood in, blood out, you know, until the casket drops. And that is taken literally. It's like, you're in. There is no, there usually is no way out. It is until the casket drops that you die. You like you're born. And for many people, this is an inheritance. They're, you know, they're third or fourth generation gang members. And it's like, I'm going to die in prison one day. That is just, this is what it is. like, Hey, like.   You know what you signed up for. Right. Like that's the compelling feature. This is where I'm at. There's really nothing I can do to change it. So let's have like the best ride. And also like within gangs, like you're being praised for doing these things. So you're getting the reinforcement. You're getting the kudos. Like your aunt told you after you come out for being drugs, like that's what you do for your family. it's like, and I mean, we're raised, we're raised by society. We're raised by what people teach us. And so I'm curious. Okay. So now you're there for your school.   Tell me about solitary confinement. Like, is that awful? I just need to know. Like, how is It is awful. It's awful practice that we use in the United States and we use it on children as young as 13, 14 years old. And it's been deemed by, it's been deemed human torture to put someone in an eight by 12 concrete cell and like no human contact. It's hard to explain. It's hard for people to imagine. They think that,   The Dental A Team (21:22.039) TVs or something will show you that, it's 23 hours a day. That's not true. It's 24 hours a day. And even when you go out to recreational yard outdoor activities, it's just another cell outside of your cell. It's not like a real yard. You don't really go out to see the sun or the grass. It's another concrete cell, but it's just a little bit bigger. that's also...   like the grit and the determination and resilience that like, it becomes a challenge for most people who are back there. It's like, well, you're not going to freaking break knees. Like, so like we used to learn, we learned it's the cell faces. If you just imagine that like right now you're in a cell, there's a wall, there's a small window that faces a wall, maybe like four or five feet away. And that's what you look at for years. And that's really all you can see.   but there are seven other people in a unit with you that all face the wall. So you can talk to people. We learned to play chess. We play chess by memory. Like we have chess boards and we can play by memory, playing chess with each other. We play games and you find ways to, reading, working out, cleaning. It's where you, I really learned a lot of the discipline that I have today was learned in prison, in solitary confinement.   reading, writing book reports, working out every day, getting up on time, having a routine and discipline. I learned all of that in prison through the gang. you feel like, okay, tell me more about this. Do you feel like that routine and all the things you learned from that, like you just said, there was the discipline, getting up, like you had to basically probably build your own routine. I'm guessing the prison, like you're in confinement. No, we have one built for us. So the gang has one built for you. You get up, you have a roll call in the morning. It's like, hey everybody, good morning, time to get up.   And you have a workout, I clean my cell, I get a towel every day, a little shampoo, clean my cell down, make sure my cell is really clean, practice good hygiene, shower, brush my bird bath in there. You have a sink with water, so you just bird bath in your cell and read, study, workout. These things are mandatory every day. These aren't options. Okay. So then it like, which is probably good, it instills it.   The Dental A Team (23:38.173) a routine for you, which I think is really paramount in life. like John, you said, like, where did your shift happen? Were you in solitary confinement? Or when you're in confinement? Are you just planning your next crime? Because like within the prison, that's where crimes a lot of times happen. You and I were talking like, I was like, the mafia and prison, like if it could be used for good, honestly, the criminal mind if it can be used for good is beyond brilliant.   they have SOPs, they have a pecking order, like they've got an org chart, like you and I were talking like, yep, you get a handbook when you show up to the gang, like it's wild to me how they run it. They they're profitable. They know their margins. They know what they need to do. They send people out there. They praise them for work well done. And I'm like, if we can just take that and apply it to business, like it's absolutely brilliant. It's just unfortunately done in a way that's not like great outcomes. So how did you change? Like, was it in solitary confinement? Was it like you said you had a radical shift in 2017?   you're still committing crimes from within prison. Like how did you change John? Because so many people I think would argue like you don't really change. But I remember I attended, I'm very fascinated by addictions. I'm fascinated by the way the mind works. And I actually went to this addiction course for a while and they said you don't change until you're like rock bottom. Like everybody will hit a rock bottom and it's oftentimes not for family. It's not for life. Like, but everybody has a rock bottom that you hit. And when you hit it, you actually change. like,   A lot of people don't even get there. So how did you change? Do you agree with that? Do you disagree with that? I do disagree with that. Somebody has to hit a rock bottom. There's a quote by a homo-incredible guy named Chris Wilson. says, rock bottom isn't a place, it's a state of mind. Interesting. Like you can't go find this place anywhere. But it's in me. It's a state of mind. And it's a decision that I don't want to be in this place anymore. But there's also a really good book that I encourage people to read. called The Stages of Change.   in the trans theoretical model is how change actually happens. And there's different stages of it. There's like, I won't go through the whole thing, but there's like, I'm to, I'm blanking on it right now, but there's like, I'm not, there is no problem. I'm not the problem. And actually you're the problem. That's like the first stage of change. And the next one is like, you have awareness, like, there's a problem, but I'm not willing to do anything about it. I like what's happening right now.   The Dental A Team (25:56.749) So there's these different stages of change. I subscribe more to that model that people will make. We make changes in our life in stages. And for me, had started making, I made a radical shift, but that shift didn't happen overnight. But there was like that spark for me. And it was right after, was when I got sent to Pelican Bay State Prison. And after I out of solitary confinement, I was supposed to be going home.   but it was, it was the day before my birthday, was supposed to be going home. And instead of going home, I was starting another four year consecutive sentence for a crime I committed. And that was the day when I decided I was like, all right, something has to change, in my life. But also like I've been doing, I've been living this life for 15 years. I don't know what else to do. But what did happen was I sat, I stayed back from yard, which is in prison.   You typically don't do that. Yard is mandatory. Just in case a riot or something kicks off, we need everybody on the yard. But I stayed in and that was the first time that I remember ever crying in prison for 15 years. I'd never cried. I lost my uncle, I lost my brother, lost so many people throughout my, and never cried. But I cried that day and that was the first time that I remember really wanting to go home. I was like, this is it. If I don't make a change in my life, I'm gonna die in here. And I believe that I...   I had belief that I was meant for more than dying in prison. And that was the big shift for me was I just believe me that I was meant for more than in prison. Insane. And I think it's so incredible. like, okay, so we talk about it it sounds very fairy tale, right? Like we have this moment where we're meant for more, which John, I'm so glad you said that because I think so many other people have that. And that's why I wanted you on the podcast. This is I love talking to you. Because I'm like, gosh, if John can do all these things and realize he's meant for more.   Like so many other people were so hard on ourselves and like know we're all meant for more. So tell me like, how did you process it? Also being in a gang. I remember when I met you, I was like, I don't even know how you're out in your life because like leaving a gang is usually death. Like there's no way and you're in a very prominent gang. Like how did you, how do you change? How do you get out from a gang where you're like usually killed if you leave a gang? That's why people don't love gangs.   The Dental A Team (28:17.805) But they're so prompt, like they're good businesses, they're good recruiters, like and young boys and like, it's all the things that young, it's all the things that boys and like men want war money, like it's all, it's all there. It's all there. meets the needs, it meets those needs. do a good job. Those needs. We were talking and you're like, they're great at recruiting. Like they literally list off everything you want. They recruit you when you're young and you're not making like intelligent decisions and then you're in it for life. So   You go through this moment where you realize you're meant for more. How do you change? how do you change? How do you get out of a gang? Because I think so many people, you were facing probably one of the biggest uphill battles of any person I have ever met, John. Like, I'm probably gonna write a book about you. Like, I've never written a book, but gosh, like your story is just so fascinating to me because I think so many people would just feel like there's no hope and yet you found hope when there was no hope. Like, I would say that most people would be able to find. So walk me through, how do you transform into the man you are today?   So it was more action than it was anything else. was like, to me, it was coming out and letting my homeboys know. First, giving up positions that I had in prison. I gave up, I was an entrepreneur in prison. I used to run every single business you could imagine. I ran gambling pools, I sold alcohol, I sold drugs, I sold cell phones. I created markets where there wasn't one. That was how I all my money in prison. And I stopped doing that. That was- is also so wild. Can we just pause there? I remember I was talking and it's like-   How do you even do this? And you're like, well, you get to know people. It's like freaking sales in prison. You get to know all the guards. You notice they're having a bad day. You get them to bring this up in. Like it is wild. And I remember we were talking, there was someone else in the group with us and they're like, well, all this happens in prison. I'm like, yeah, I even know this. Like they're freaking run businesses within the prison. And it is like multimillion billion. Like it is a very thriving business. They're very large. They're very scalable businesses. And like I was small time. I made good money, but I, I,   For example, I would run gambling pools. It was on football, baseball, basketball. I even ran gambling pools on the Oscars and what's that? I forgot the name of show, but the Bachelor. I used to run gambling pools in the Bachelor. They would pick who's gonna win and all I would do is take a cut of the money. And I was just a facilitator for people to be able to gamble. But when I would get to a new facility or a new yard, I would undercut whoever was already running, whoever was running these pools.   The Dental A Team (30:43.917) I would just undercut them and I would over deliver. They're charging $2 for a ticket. I charge $1 for a ticket. They take 15%. I take 10%. And I put them out of business and then I come back and hire them. And I hire them as like a kind of like a franchise. It's like, okay, now you're gonna do it for me in your building and I'm gonna give you 2 % of the cut. All you gotta do is pass out the football tickets and collect the money and give it to me and I'm gonna pay you. Okay, but how do you do that? Now I get killed in prison. Like that's not a joke.   Like I feel like you come in, there's a top dog and you take them down. They usually take you out. is it just because you- There's rules. That's where the rules come in. There's so many rules. Yeah. There's like, don't just get to go out and fight people whenever you want. You don't just get to go out and assault people whenever you want. Like it doesn't work. Like it does not. That's movies. And also that's also California. California is very organized, very structured. So it's like, Hey, you just got put out of business. Like too bad for you. Like nobody's gonna like-   They can get upset whatever they want, like that's not going to, that's violence is violence is always 99.9 % of the time is always predetermined. It's not random. Even when it's against an officer, it is not random. There is a high likelihood that that officer came in. I'm not justifying why that happens. not saying there's any reason why anyone should ever be assaulted. but when you're living in that life, there are   in that criminal mindset, there are justifications. And I've seen officers come in and take someone's family photos and throw them in the toilet and tear them up. And it's like, well, you just destroyed something that meant really a lot to that person. And they believe that their only way of justifying that, rectifying that is by going out and assaulting them. So it doesn't happen. No one wakes up one morning and be like, I feel like going out and stabbing someone. That doesn't happen.   Because it's a business. It's a plan like and as gross as that is you and I were talking about this and I'm like, I'm fascinated by business and I'm fascinated by criminal minds. Because like, it is a business and it is a livelihood. It's a lifestyle. Like this is how you get like all of us do things for money for our lives. And if that's all you've ever been taught, it's very hard to know different case. So you're the entrepreneur in there, you're undercutting all the other businesses. Like how do you change and also how do you even tell the gang that you're not going to be a part of it? That's like so   The Dental A Team (33:03.957) a foreign, you must be really good at sales or something, John, because I feel like, like that's just not heard of. So it's a couple of things. So first, like some of the, the, some of my older own boys who are in prison, who are internet men in prison for a very long time and have a lot of influence, they were my mentors. They, and with proximity is power, right? So like I was around people who have a lot of power and, they believed in me.   And eventually, I let people know, like, hey, I'm not doing that anymore. And it was right around that time that Defy Ventures came to Pelican Bay as well, which is an entrepreneurship program. And it really came in at just the right time because I didn't know what to supplement. There's a huge gap in my life, and I don't know what else to put, but then Defy came and was like, okay, well, here's how you can start to use these skills in a positive way. And that was really what helped to self-solidify my change was I was able to help guys. I graduated from the program.   I became a facilitator and a leader within the program. And now guys, instead of coming to me for alcohol and phones and everything else, they're coming to me for resume feedback, business ideation feedback. They're coming to me for positive things and how can they get involved in programs? So it's like I was taking myself out of the negative conversations around the gang and taking myself out of anything that had to do with the gang and putting myself into positive, into more positive things. And people saw that.   And yeah, people called me all kinds of names when I first started making changes in my life. Names I won't repeat, but you can imagine what they are. But what I realized was it takes a lot more courage to step away and not be involved. is the easy thing to do is get involved in rides and sell drugs. That's easy to do because everybody else is doing it. But eventually one of the top guys in my game,   He eventually asked me, it, he pulled me over on the yard and was like, John, is this really what you want? Like, you really want to leave? I was like, yeah. Well, I didn't answer that quickly because I was terrified. He's like, yeah, this is really what I want. And he's like, good, because you're too smart to be in here and you could do more than die in prison. So mind your own business, go home. We love you. Go home. And he was, he's been down, he's been in prison for almost 40 years. did 32 consecutive years in solitary confinement.   The Dental A Team (35:27.213) He was first arrested when he was four years old. Four? He was four years old and he was arrested. I didn't know they could even arrest four year olds. I didn't know that. Yes. it's kind of, I say this, in the land of the free, we have handcuffs that are small and lifted around the wrist of a four year old child. Wow. Insane. What were his chances that he was going to go to college? What were the chances that he was in a   do anything, but he's one of the most charismatic CEOs you'll ever meet. That's incredible. So you change. I think it's what I love. And I'm curious, do you feel like your solitary confinement and the grit and the mental stamina you built up there possibly could have influenced your decisions to leave and to have a different life? Like, feel like that solitary confinement, if you will allow it, which I think so many things in our lives could allow.   For me, John, listening to your story, I'm curious if you learned mental stamina, mental grit. You'd already done probably some of the hardest things. I think that actually was probably harder than telling people that you want to have a different life. Do you feel like there was any mental stamina that you learned or grit or lessons you learned that maybe made it easier for you, even though easy is like with massive air quotes? Because I don't think any of what you did was easy. But do you think any of that played into it for you? Definitely. It also helped that I've been to that stuff because that's a resume builder in prison that you put in words.   Bender the shoe. This shoe is a solitary housing. It's called solitary housing unit. So then the shoe, you found these things and then when you get to Pelican Bay, which is like the white house or like, it's like where you want to go. If you get to, when you get to Pelican Bay, you're like, yeah, I made it. It's like, that's your like stamp. That's like your stamp of approval. Is that just cause it's the hardest prison? Like why is Pelican Bay? Okay. They're the hardest prison. It was, it's one of the, it's the only super max in California. And I think it's changed now. They're there. Hopefully they shut it down, but it was known for.   All the top game leaders are put in solitary confinement there. And it's where like, there's a few prisons in California and Pelican Bay is one. Pelican Bay was one of them. So like I had the mental grid and determination. I was still terrified. It's like at the end of the day, like I'm just one, just one person, but I really, what I was more afraid of dying in prison than like, because I'm not dying in prison anyways. Like, what are you guys going to do to Right. No, it's a Stupid slash am, like stupid slash arrogant.   The Dental A Team (37:51.329) which works out, which works out sometimes and right. Yeah. For entrepreneurs, think it works out sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't. It worked out this time. Interesting. Okay. So the five entries is such a cool company and such an amazing thing because it really does help these. I feel like it's almost like the redirect. So you're taking these criminals that have had like amazing, brilliant, you just redirect them into something good because I do believe, and I don't know, you've been in prison, you've seen probably the darker side of life. John, I believe   that people are inherently good. Do you believe that after seeing the dark side of life? you believe that sentiment as well? Yes, I do. And I've seen it. Even the guys that I talk about who have been incarcerated for 30, 40 years and have done, made terrible choices. I've made terrible choices too. There's like when you tap into a softer part of them, when they have hope, hope, when they have hope, right? It makes such a huge difference in someone's life when someone has hope versus   Like you're an animal and you're a monster and you're dying in prison, right? Then when you have hope, some of that good starts to come out. The good, I can see it, I can point to it because I'm right here today. The goodness in them said, John, go home, do good. I still talk to them to this day and they love seeing me win. They love what I get to They love seeing me succeed and do great things, even though they will never, they'll never get out of prison. But they love seeing other people succeed.   Which is incredible to me because you would think like, can criminals really be kind and have kind hearts? Cause you see the evil side of it. I think John, okay, I have a few more questions. I know we're coming up, but like, okay. Question one is tell me about what it was like. Well, actually I'm going to ask this question first. Cause then I want to hear like a happier side. I think there's a preconceived notion about people that who are criminals and then they change that like,   Well, yeah, but is this like a long thing? And like, do you ever get tempted to go, I don't know, do all the things you used to do? Like there was status, there was power. Like, how do you navigate? It's almost like you've tasted of that fruit. How do you not go back to that? As human natures, right? Human nature is easy. like, riddle me on that one. How do people trust him believe that these incarcerated criminals really have like truly changed and are just going to like flip a switch one day or they'll go back to their old roots? Like,   The Dental A Team (40:18.733) Can you answer anything on that? Because I think that that's a misconception across the board. that takes work. These are patterns for whether someone's in any patterns. It's like addiction. It's a pattern in our life. There's a pathway in our brain, whether it's violence, aggression, whatever it is that we're engaging in. That's a pathway that's been created in our brain and it can become a go-to just like that. So it takes years of work to start undoing those patterns and learning new patterns.   And we can all learn new patterns. Our brains are very, that plasticity, right? Our brains can learn. We're forever learning. So for myself, ask about like, what, do I have criminal thoughts? Yeah, I have them all the time. But I know that I don't want to do, I don't want to do that. Number one is I don't want to create more victims. Number two, I never want to go back to prison. I never want to give up my, I'll never give up my freedom again. There's nothing in this world that will make me give up my freedom again. And I can get my needs met in other ways.   Right? Like whether it's significance, whether it's contribution, whatever those needs are, I can get them, I can meet them now in a legitimate way because I have the skills and the tools to get to meet them. Whereas before, the people who we serve in prison, they didn't have, no one sent them to school. No one sent, like when I dropped, when I got kicked out of school in seventh grade, nobody came to look for me. The school, the school didn't, the school never called my family and asked about me.   No truant officer ever came searching for me. Right? Like that to me, that's why, because there's multiple factors. It could be the neighbor that you grew up in, how much money you have, and the color of your skin. Determines the opportunities and the ways that we were raised. So many of the people who come to prison with us, the volunteers, the CEOs and executives, we ask a series of questions and we ask like, how many of you have more than 50 books in your house growing up? Your parents pay for you to attend private school.   Your parents tucked you into bed every night, right? At least one parent tucked you into bed. Like I heard gunshots in my neighborhood growing up. Like these, and you see the stark contrast between the opportunities that we had. So is it expected that there, that people who are incarcerated have these patterns in their life that have, that have gone on for years. But at Defy, we can teach them and start to give them new patterns of, you used to do this in prison for the gang. Well, you can convert that.   The Dental A Team (42:46.573) over it, this is a, it's called a transferable skill. You can transfer that skill set over here and use it this way. That's incredible. I love it. And that's ultimately what Defy is for. And that's what like changed your life is this company that you guys are a part of comes in and they teach the curriculum. They give like, you guys have your little SOPs. You've got all your manuals. They go through class. How long do people usually   participate in DeFi before they are. So it's not easy. This is the curriculum they're going through. This is a lot of curriculum that they are going through and reading. And if you have everything in here from self-limiting beliefs to building out your business model to running an MVP, they have everything through that. And it's a lot. It takes around six months for them. It takes about six months for them to get through the curriculum. That's awesome.   And that's like really what your passion is now. So, okay, I'm going to ask the question and then we're going to talk about Defy and how you even got to Defy. But okay, I need to know. So it was probably what 2017 and you were released in 2019? Yeah, got on June 19th, 2019. June 19th. I bet you'll never forget that day. Well, actually I think the greatest thing happened this year I did forget and Casey texted me and was like, congratulations. What for? It's your five years. I forgot that I did forget. That actually felt really good to forget that.   It felt good to forget that. That's amazing. I, that makes me actually so happy because then it's not a stamp of remembering who you were, but who you are today is what you're actually living. So basically two years from the time like you made this decision, two years, you build up a business plan, you're learning all these skills, you're released. I need to know like, and I don't even know if you can put into words, like what did it feel like to have freedom back after 17 years?   of not having freedom, of being in solitary confinement, of feeling like you're gonna be in this for the rest of your life, to then changing and realizing, I want a different life. Can you just explain to the listeners and to me, what does that even feel like? Because I think we take for granted our life, our love, our happiness, all the things that we have on a daily basis, and you had all that stripped away from you for years, for good reason, right? There were consequences associated, but what did that even feel like when you were released? So my release was a bit of a journey.   The Dental A Team (45:04.129) There was a typo in my transcripts, in my transcripts that I was supposed to, I had committed crimes in Texas where I was originally born. I went back to court, I served my time, I did everything. The transcriber forgot to check a box that I had been incarcerated for 18 years. So I had the federal marshals come pick me up from prison and fly me out to Texas. And they held me against my will for 10 days before they released me.   it took lawyers, I had volunteers or mentors of mine who I met through defy who got me an attorney and fought for me and eventually fought for my eventually won my release after 10 days. but even up until that moment, they called me out and like Jackson, it's called RC or RCO one. Like you're going home. and then I'm like, you're going home. I'm like, I didn't believe them. I felt like I had been screwed over by the system so many times and I.   They're like, give us your social security number forward, give us your social security number backwards, what address you used to live at when you were 13. And I don't remember any of this stuff. And then I get in front of a glass door and they're just waiting for it to open. just didn't believe it was gonna open.   But I finally did and I was able to walk back and I got the hell out of there as fast as I could because I was scared they would come back and take me away and tell me like, we're just screwing with you. Like it's a joke. not really letting you go. And finally made my way back to California. So they flew me out to Texas. I had no idea or nothing. I had to find my way back to California within 72 hours to go over my parole meeting.   So, but I got on a flight. I was able to fly with no ID. How did you do that? That's impressive. So I started working for another organization called 2.0 and we printed up a fake IP. Our business manager printed up a fake IP for me, printed it up, sent it to Kinko's and I went and got it and I got in the plane.   The Dental A Team (47:17.485) It's fine. We gave away crime. just smelt like it's just a little like we're fine. I had to get back to California to violate my parole. Yeah. All right. So you get back. Go on. was like it's taken. It has taken time to it's very trying. It is re-entering society after 18 years of that. It's very traumatizing. I had a hard time sleeping. didn't sleep. Casey being a   Going to Casey's was actually the first time I fell asleep. I fell asleep at his house. I hadn't slept in close to like five days. I hadn't slept. Just because I couldn't like be in a room with doors and windows and large spaces. I was not used to that. I was used to being in a small cell that, you know, I know everything that's going on in that cell. then it's, it's, it's taken a lot of time, a lot of healing and a lot of therapy to be able to like sleep with my bedroom door open now. Yeah.   That's incredible. It's amazing. John, like it was thank you for sharing because it touches me too, because I can only imagine and I felt it. I think at a very small level because I'll never know what that felt like. To hear because I agree, I it was so like, this even real life? And well, I mean, I've got all the hopes and aspirations, but will I actually be able to achieve everything that I know I'm meant to do? And then now five years later, you're married, you have a house, you you've got this happy life. Like   I just remember watching you at Tony Robbins and I think so many people love being there. And I feel like you're experiencing life like for the first time. It's almost like watching a child experience life, not that you're a child, but just the joy and the love and like you're experiencing life I feel firsthand for the first time right now. And I think to be able to watch you do that was so magical for me because like I take these things for granted. I mean, I get to go to these events and I get to have these and like, yes, it's amazing, but.   Like watching you just, feels like every day you live, you live to the fullest. And I don't know if you want to comment on that. And then I want to talk about Defy and help you. I try to, I still like, I have hard days. I have days like, I, that, that days that suck, days that are like not the best, right? But trying to practice gratitude and I can, I can forget that sometimes. can forget, but I actually like thinking about it, I'm actually grateful that sometimes I can have those days because I'm that far away from where I used to be that I can be like,   The Dental A Team (49:39.949) crap, I'm stuck in traffic. I'm not in solitary confinement. This traffic, I mean, 80 is really bad. I'll give it Five years ago, like, I would have done anything to just be able to sit in traffic, right? And sitting at cell. But I look at it as like, but it's a good reminder to be like, yeah, could have, I could, my life could be much, much worse. But today I get to use my life for to do great. I get to live what I believe is my purpose and why God put me on this earth. So I love that.   I love that you just said that because I think maybe that was like the piece I wanted people to hear. There's so many pieces I wanted people to hear from you, but to hear like today I get to live my life on purpose. I get to live what I was meant to be here for. And I think like hearing someone like John, I don't think so many of us listening will ever understand what it feels like to be in prison for 18 years. Like I hope so many people don't have that. And I think just like you really bring me back to gratitude every time I talk to you of just like how blessed I am to have the life I have and to   like live those days and to live the purpose that I was meant to be and like we're all created for more. And so tell me a little bit about Kay, here's John five years. You have to five ventures kind of tell us a little bit about what the five ventures are because I think it's incredible that entrepreneurs like most of the listeners here were able to go in and give you the gift of entrepreneurship. And now you're doing that for more incarcerated criminals. And when Casey talked on stage, he said like,   The US is not as big of a population and yet we house the most criminals within the US. Like you probably know those stats way better than I do. We have about 5 % of the world's population, but we incarcerate 25%. We have 25 % of the world's incarcerated population. The vast majority of them are black and brown people. That's just the reality. We have one of the highest recidivism rates in the world. All of these things that show that we have a broken system, a system that does not work.   And I know what you went to me when I heard that I was like staggering statistics. And just thinking like what you guys are trying to do is stop generational crime and stop like the path of cradle to grave and like, I don't know you said blood to casket, like crazy to me that that's how but you're like, this is my life. That's all you know. And it's like, well, think about where we raise and like, my parents went to college. So I went to college and   The Dental A Team (51:57.229) Like, yes, we can break away from it, but breaking away from the mold, I do think is hard. And so kind of tell us a little about about five ventures. And if people are interested, this is our live to give this year of like having a way to give back. was so incredible to see how many people were able to help through this program at Tony Robbins. And then also for me and all the listeners know every year we do live to give and something that just really is a bigger impact than ourselves. Cause I believe we're so blessed as entrepreneurs, let's give back and serve more. So kind of tell us a little about.   what DeFi Ventures does and how people can get a part of that if they want to. Yeah, so DeFi, we leverage entrepreneurship. We want to, it's we call it transforming their hustle, right? It's taking all those skills that they've learned through the criminal and gang life and using them to apply to start their own business. And they don't have to start a business. They can also do that, like being what's called an entrepreneur, where you are using that creativity, using all your skills as an employee. So we leverage that. And what we do is we   also recruit CEOs, executives and business leaders to come into prison with us for our events. They're very similar to what we get to do at Tony Robbins. People jumping around, having a great time, getting people in state and giving feedback on their business pitches. Because we're going to get them all the way to writing a business pitch and post it after they get out of prison. We help them get them all the way to seed funding as well. If they're doing, if they're meeting certain benchmarks, we'll put them in front of investors to help them start their business.   but they have to have a job, have to have stable housing, which we help them do after they get out. We're building character and leadership development in them as well. Because as you know, as entrepreneurs, it's not just about making money. Like that's not what defines an entrepreneur. There's a lot that goes into it. Like you can make a boat ton of money and ruin your life, ruin your marriage, ruin a whole lot of things if you don't have great coping skills. So we take a holistic approach to the healing and...   That's a big part of what we get to do at Defy is yes, we want you to start a business, but more than that, we want you to develop you as leaders and develop your character. So to date, we've helped launch over 600 businesses for people who are formerly incarcerated. One of the guys you can look up, he's a rock star, name is Cos Marte. He founded a company called ConBody. I he's got over 75,000 customers and he does prison style workouts for people. So if you want a good workout, you can go to ConBody.   The Dental A Team (54:15.469) and we'll partner you up with somebody who's formerly incarcerated and they'll get your butt working out. We have lot of things by 90 % employment rate, 90 days post release for our EITs. We call it EITs. That stands for Entrepreneurs in Training. And so when they get out, we help them get jobs. We have partnership with Google, Apple, LegalZoom to help them get on their feet, them get a laptop, start their business, incorporate their business. And the ways to get involved are one,   We're a 501c3 nonprofit, so it costs us $1,700 per person to put someone through the CEO of your New Life program. So you can sponsor someone. Even in your chapter, we have multiple chapters. We're a nationwide organization. So if you're in Utah, California, Washington, the tri-state area, Pennsylvania, Illinois, can search for defy.org and support a chapter near you. Or you can...   We go to volunteer as well. love bringing people into prison, business coaches and mentors to come in and invest in our entrepreneurs and training and give them the feedback that they desperately need. And it makes a huge difference when you come to prison with us and invest in people for people who have been incarcerated 20, 25, 30 years that people actually care. And it also starts like what happened for you, Kiera, it starts to break those stereotypes or those beliefs that you have about what someone is from there, who someone is.   that has committed a crime or someone who's incarcerated. Yeah, I love it. Dental A Team does live to give every single year. this is just something when I met you, John, and yes, we won the trophy. But like I said, I feel like we won life. you've just taught me to, like I said, you can love yourself even in spite of everything that's happened. And you see yourself as, I'm John. Yes, I've done those things. But like, I love me as a person. And I can feel sad for those things. And I can have remorse. And I can do all the things to repair.   but it doesn't define you either. And I feel like you just have this love and this sparkle of life, which makes me so happy. And then to be able to give that to other people, I think is just an incredible cause that you guys are doing and excited. I'll be there January 17th. I'll see you guys. And am I scared out of my mind? I'm like, John, are you sure I'll be safe? Like, how do know these people aren't going to like grab my hair and hold me by my throat with a knife? Like, do I fear that? John. can address that right now. And I could just share with people who might think that prison is a...   The Dental A Team (56:40.941) So these are rules that are in prison from gangs, right? That like, not saying that I agree with them, but like, if you have a sex offense, you rape or child molestation, those types of crimes are severely frowned upon and actually violence is committed against people who come in with those crimes. And I brought hundreds and thousands of hundreds, literally hundreds, and over the 10 years that we've been doing this organization, we brought thousands of women to prison. Never once have we had any incident. It is one of the most   The men there that you will meet will be the most respectful kind. One of the safest places you can be is actually in a maximum security prison, especially for women. respect that the men have in there for you all coming in there to support us and care about us. We know why you're there. It's to serve and I want to learn from you. I'm not there trying to do anything else. I want to learn from you. That's really what it's about.   That's amazing. And thank you for speaking to that because I do like those are the fears that's media and but I think it's such an incredible cause to give people a second chance in life and to put them through programs like yourself where you are coming as the product of this program and looking what you can do for all these people. So John, I just appreciate you in my life. I appreciate learning from you. I appreciate that you let me ask all of my questions and your story.   You're a great question asker. That's why we want to talk about it. I was not here asking questions. You're a great interv

Read the blog here: http://dougapple.blogspot.com/ +++++++ I’m Doug Apple...and my heart is on fire. (Luke 24:32) “I’ve spent a good portion of my life disappointed with God.” That’s what he said, and it got me thinking. Am I disappointed with God? Have I been disappointed with God? Was I ever disappointed with God? I can’t think of a time when I was ever disappointed with God. Oh sure, there have been a thousand times when things didn’t go the way I wanted them to go, but that didn’t make me disappointed with God. Why not? I guess it is because I always just figured that if things didn’t go the way I expected, it’s because I didn’t really know how things are supposed to work. For example, there was the time as a baby Christian when I concluded that I didn’t have to lock up my bicycle anymore because God was going to protect me from theft. Then I came home one day and found that my bicycle was gone! Of course, I was disappointed, but I wasn’t disappointed with God. I was just disappointed with the situation. I thought things worked in a way that they actually don’t work. I just recalibrated my thinking and moved forward in my walk with God. A more serious example is when I was a Christian radio DJ, on the air daily, playing Christian music and ministry live on the radio, taking requests, talking to people, encouraging people in the faith, etc. I also had a wife at home, and an increasing number of mouths to feed. And being a little Christian radio DJ is not a great way to provide for a big family. There’s an old joke in the radio industry: what do a DJ and a large pizza have in common? They can aaaaaaalmost feed a family of four. I was praying things like, “God, I believe You have called me to this radio station, and yet I’m not making enough money. I thought You were going to provide for my needs as I do Your will.” Meanwhile, the owner of the station wanted me to get into advertising sales to help support both the station and myself. But I didn’t want to. I wanted to focus on the on-air ministry as a live DJ. Yes, that led to some frustrating days where I was expecting God to provide more money, meanwhile I was turning down my boss’s encouragement to get into sales. Then I finally realized, “Well, I guess this isn’t how this is going to work. God isn’t going to suddenly drop in money from heaven. But meanwhile, I do have this opportunity.” So in the summer of 1992, with our fourth child on the way, I went off the air as a live DJ and began working in sales. And that turned out to be a positive change in every way, for that whole ministry as well as for my family. Disappointment with God never took root in me. I just figured, hey, that’s not how this works. Let’s move on. And I would say, yes, God provided. I saw it over and over. But He provided through open doors and opportunities that came our way over and over and over again, thank You, God! Have you ever been learning something new, and it was frustrating, and at times you wanted to quit? I remember when I was first learning graphic design, using a computer program called CorelDraw. I didn’t go to school for this. I was already raising my own family, but the opportunity came. I suddenly found myself editing a small newspaper, and I didn’t know what I was doing! I was sitting at Kinko’s in Carbondale, Illinois late one night, because they had a computer with CorelDraw on it, and I had to get this newspaper edited before the deadline. There was a certain ad that I needed to change, but I couldn’t change it. Every time I clicked it, the whole thing highlighted and moved, but I couldn’t click just the text to change it. I was going out of my mind! It was late at night. There was no Google to ask. The Kinko’s worker didn’t know anything about it. Back then you couldn’t even right click for a context menu. Plus I was so tired by then. Finally. FINALLY I realized that the text inside the ad had been GROUPED TOGETHER. I had never heard of things being grouped together. I didn’t know you could group things together. Did I become disappointed with the CorelDraw corporation? No. I was just frustrated because I didn’t know how it was supposed to work. And I think that is how people end up feeling disappointed with God. It’s not that God is disappointing. It’s that we don’t know how it’s supposed to work, so we burden our relationship with God with all these expectations, and then when our expectations aren’t met, we feel disappointed with God. Some people walk away from God altogether for this. What if I would have walked away from graphic design just because I didn’t know about grouping? That would have been dumb, right? When things don’t work the way we expect, we don’t quit. We figure out how they are supposed to work! The same is true in our walk with God. Of course it’s hard to figure out. Isaiah 55:8-9 says, “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.” Romans 11:33 says, “Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!” In Job 11 it says, “Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than heaven…their measure is longer than the earth and broader than the sea.” Psalm 147 says God’s understanding is infinite! If we don’t even know how everything works in our favorite computer app, what makes us think we understand the workings of the infinite God? There’s no room for disappointment. We don’t get disappointed. We just realize, “Hey, I guess that’s not how this thing works. God, please teach me and show me and lead me. Your ways are higher than my ways, so I put my faith and hope and trust in You. Please help me to hear and to follow You every step of the way for the rest of my days…in Jesus’ name…” Amen. May God bless you today. I’m Doug Apple.

Chris Sullivan [The Knick, This Is Us] talks to Rachel and Olivia about his Broadway calling, Chicago (the city and the musical), and slow dancing at Kinko's. They also discuss the red string theory, alcoholism, and the immense impact of This Is Us.To hear more from Chris Sullivan, check out his new podcast That Was Us, hosted by Chris and This Is Us-co-stars Mandy Moore and Sterling K. Brown. Available wherever you get your podcasts.Broad Ideas is supported by OSEA. Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code BROAD at OSEAMalibu.com.Broad Ideas is supported by Quince. Go to Quince.com/ideas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.Broad Ideas is supported by Tropical Smoothie Café. Visit one of Tropical Smoothie Cafe's 1400+ locations or order online or through their app.Broad Ideas is supported by IQBAR. Get 20% off all IQBAR products. Text IDEAS to 64000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Chris Sullivan [The Knick, This Is Us] talks to Rachel and Olivia about his Broadway calling, Chicago (the city and the musical), and slow dancing at Kinko's. They also discuss the red string theory, alcoholism, and the immense impact of This Is Us. To hear more from Chris Sullivan, check out his new podcast That Was Us, hosted by Chris and This Is Us-co-stars Mandy Moore and Sterling K. Brown. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Broad Ideas is supported by OSEA. Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code BROAD at OSEAMalibu.com. Broad Ideas is supported by Quince. Go to Quince.com/ideas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Broad Ideas is supported by Tropical Smoothie Café. Visit one of Tropical Smoothie Cafe's 1400+ locations or order online or through their app. Broad Ideas is supported by IQBAR. Get 20% off all IQBAR products. Text IDEAS to 64000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details.

Hello friends! Alt-folk-pop, singer-songwriter, and record label owner Rachel Sage is my guest for episode 1404! Rachel's latest album, Another Side, an acoustic reimagining of her critically acclaimed album, The Other Side, is available now wherever you do music. Go to rachelsage.com for music, videos, tour dates, and more. We have a great conversation about the inspiration to make Another Side, getting a four-track cassette recorder for her bat mitzvah, going to Stanford, coming up in the d.i.y. folk scene, Kinko's in the 80' & 90's, playing Siné with Jeff Buckley, starting and running her record label MPress Records, songwriting, touring the U.K., what keeps her inspired, and much more. I had a great time getting to know Rachel. I'm sure you will too. Let's get down!   Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you pod.   If you feel so inclined. Venmo: www.venmo.com/John-Goudie-1  Paypal: paypal.me/johnnygoudie

Gary Kusin is a mentor, investor, entrepreneur, and business advisor. He today advises an array of public and private companies, large and small, on strategy, management, and growth issues. In addition, Gary continues his full mentoring schedule and has mentored well over 500 individuals during his career. Mr. Kusin co-founded two companies, Babbage's, operating as GameStop (NYSE: GME), and Laura Mercier Cosmetics, which are well-known global brands today. Gary spent 13 years as a senior advisor to the global private equity firm TPG, including a large amount of his time mentoring CEOs of TPG portfolio companies. He served from 2001-2006 as president and chief executive officer of Kinko's, today operating as FedEx Office. Mr. Kusin was responsible for the turnaround, strategic growth, and transformation of Kinko's and oversaw the ultimate sale to FedEx, directly reporting to Fred Smith, founder of FedEx, for the 2 years required to integrate Kinko's into FedEx and be renamed FedEx Office. An Inc. magazine “Entrepreneur of Year” award winner, he has served many public and private firms in America and abroad, including Electronic Arts, Petco, Sabre, and Myer Department Stores in Australia.Mr. Kusin has been very involved in Dallas community activities throughout his career. A representative sample of organizations and positions include the St. Mark's School of Texas Board of Trustees, the Dallas Young Presidents' Organization (YPO) chairman, the Dallas Citizens Council Board of Directors, and the Southwestern Medical School Foundation.​A member of the University of Texas McCombs School of Business Hall of Fame, Mr. Kusin earned a BA from the University of Texas at Austin and an MBA from the Harvard Business School. A native of Texarkana, Texas, Gary lives in Dallas with his wife Karleen. Their four children, spouses, and 11 grandchildren live from coast to coast with most pursuing their own entrepreneurial journeys.Follow Travis on:– IG

Segment 1 with Gary Kusin starting at 0:00.I remember when my kids were growing up, my youngest son Daniel visited Gamestop the day it opened up near our home. He said that now since we were so close to Gamestop, our home would be more valuable. I am not sure about that but certainly GameStop has had a big effect on the gaming industry and the stock market.Gary Kusin, co-founded two companies, Babbage's, operating today as GameStop (NYSE: GME), and Laura Mercier Cosmetics. He served from 2001-2006 as President and Chief Executive Officer of Kinko's, today operating as FedEx Office. He was responsible for the turnaround, strategic growth and transformation of Kinko's and oversaw the ultimate sale to FedEx, directly reporting to Fred Smith, founder of FedEx, for the 2 years required to integrate Kinko's into FedEx and be renamed FedEx Office.Segment 2 with Tami Cannizzaro starting at 19:05.How should small business owners use AI?Tami Cannizzaro is the Chief Marketing Officer of Thryv, provider of the leading do-it-all small business software platform empowering small businesses to modernize how they work. Thryv offers small business owners everything they need to communicate effectively, manage their day-to-day operations, and grow — all in one place.

The Queens rate and review a 5 Star Amazon Review for the Hollywood institution that is The Hollywood Bowl! Trey lodges a complaint about the calculator conundrum asking, "are we always starting over?!" before the Queens discuss the sentimental value of yearbooks. Queendom Question: Do you remember Kinko's? (01:19) Lodge a Complaint!(05:01) Review(21:54) Exclusive Offer(25:07) My Royal Highness(30:22) On This Week's After Show PodReview The Pod at lovethepodcast.com/thereviewqueensDONATE to the Production of Review That Review by visiting ReviewThatReview.com/Donate Click Here to Join our Patreon for Bonus content and Member's Only After-Show Companion Podcast featuring additional reviews, deeper dives, salacious stories, and more.***** PROMO CODES *****REVIEWQUEEN at clean.emailREVIEW40 at vitable.com.auREVIEWQUEEN at shesbirdie.comREVIEWQUEEN40 at NatalieWeissVoice.comQUEEN15 at SmartPatches.comQUEEN at superchewer.com***Click Here to Join the Queendom Mailing List!Leave us a voicemail at 1-850-REVIEW-0WATCH CLIPS on YouTube!Visit our website for more: www.ReviewThatReview.com@TheReviewQueens | @ChelseyBD | @TreyGerrald ---Review That Review is an independent podcast. Executive Produced by Trey Gerrald and Chelsey Donn with editing and sound design by Trey Gerrald. Cover art designed by LogoVora, voiceover talents by Eva Kaminsky, and our theme song was written by Joe Kinosian and sung by Natalie Weiss.

Back in the day #GameStop CEO Gary Kusin opened one of the first software only stores in a brick and mortar world. He brought his deep understanding of marketing and retailing with a slim background in software and took the plunge. Hundreds of millions in sales, hundreds of stores and hundreds of stories followed. We chat up everything from the good and bad at the helm of what would become the icon for a meme stock era along with his stories running an innovative cosmetics co and a turnaround of the iconic Kinko's brand only to sell to Fedex. Gary has also written a fantastic new book: "Always Learning" - some great stories along with lessons from a savvy business leader. #Babbages #GameStop #Kinkos #LauraMercier 

In this episode of the Main Street Business Podcast, host Mark J. Kohler welcomes entrepreneur and GameStop co-founder, Gary Kusin to share his insights and experience with other aspiring leaders. Gary maps out his journey to becoming an industry leader himself and empowers emerging entrepreneurs to think beyond predefined passions.Here's what you can look forward to:Mark delves into Gary's impressive career trajectory and how it's made an impact on the corporate world.The importance of applying an analytical approach to different ventures.How Gary transitioned to the CEO role at Kinko's to implement a customer-centric approach.Emphasize the significance of creating a culture around customer interactions.Developing leadership principles based on personal experiences.Encouraging entrepreneurs to seize every opportunity that comes their way. Are you ready to get certified in EVERY strategy I teach? Start your journey with a FREE 15-minute demo. You don't want to miss this! Secure your tickets for the most significant tax & legal event of the year: Tax and Legal 360 Curious what my new certification is all about? Learn More Looking to connect with a rock star law firm? KKOS is only a click away! Grab my FREE Ultimate Tax Strategy Guide HERE! Check out our YOUTUBE Channel Here: https://www.youtube.com/markjkohler Craving more content? Check out my Instagram!

Gary Kusin, co-founder of GameStop, Laura Mercier Cosmetics, and former President and CEO of Kinko's, tells the story of launching what would become GameStop, and how the catalyst for it's innovative business model was staring them in the face for so long.Hear Gary's full interview in Episode 457 of The Action Catalyst.

Gary Kusin is the co-founder of GameStop and Laura Mercier Cosmetics and was the CEO of Kinko's. Gary led the turnaround of Kinko's and its acquisition by and integration into FedEx. Gary joins Adam to share his journey and his best lessons and advice. Gary and Adam discuss a wide range of topics: leadership, entrepreneurship, building winning relationships, building winning teams and cultures, feedback, mentorship, and much more.  

Go behind the scenes of how Gary Kusin systematically built Babbage's, which later became GameStop, into a market leader and how Gary led a major turnaround of Kinko's, taking EBITDA from -$11M to +$180M in just 3 years. Learn how he made difficult decisions like closing stores and reducing headcount, while aligning the team around new leadership principles and business lessons learned directly from iconic leaders like Fred Smith of FedEx, Jack Welch of GE, and Ross Perot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Gary Kusin, co-founder of GameStop, Laura Mercier Cosmetics, and former President and CEO of Kinko's, unveils his new book Always Learning: Lessons on Leveling Up from GameStop to Laura Mercier and Beyond, and shares insights on alignment and accountability, respect, honesty, and integrity, continuous change, tackling toxicity, good reasons vs real reasons, only getting paid for the stuff you DON'T like, launching what would become GameStop, the delicate and sometimes dark nature of mentorship, the 4 most mission-critical things to look for when hiring, and not necessarily being driven to win, but refusing to lose.

FedEx purchased Kinko's for 2+ Billion Dollars. Kinko's doesn't exist any more, but I think we can all agree that Paul Orfelea built an empire. Dave Young: Welcome to The Empire Builders Podcast, teaching business owners the not so secret techniques that took famous businesses from mom and pop to major brands. Stephen Semple is a marketing consultant, story collector, and storyteller. I'm Stephen's sidekick and business partner, Dave Young. Before we get into today's episode, a word from our sponsor, which is, well, it's us, but we're highlighting ads we've written and produced for our clients. So here's one of those. [Colair Cooling & Heating Ad] Dave Young: Welcome to The Empire Builders Podcast. Dave Young here with Stephen Semple. And we were talking about empires. We're talking about things that started small and ended up really darn big. And Stephen whispered today's topic into my ear just as we were counting down, and it's like, "Man, we've been on a run of nostalgic trips to our youthful times." Stephen Semple: That's kind of true, isn't it? I hadn't thought about that. But yeah, we kind of have been. Dave Young: So today we're talking about Kinko's. Kinko's, the copier place. Stephen Semple: Kinko's the copier place. Dave Young: If you didn't have a photocopier at your disposal, you had to find a Kinko's. That was it. That was your only other choice. Or find a print shop and wait a couple weeks. Stephen Semple: And it's easy because Kinko's sort of isn't around any longer. It'd be easy to go, oh, well, they failed, and no, they didn't. The reason why they disappeared was that in February of 2004, they were bought by FedEx for $2.4 billion. So when you look at all these FedEx stores, they were Kinko's that basically FedEx took over. When you sell something for 2.4 billion, I call that an empire. Dave Young: I think so. I think so. How did they get started, and when? Stephen Semple: They basically started back in 1969, 1970 is sort of the starting point. It was founded by Paul Orfalea, and he started literally with 100 square foot shop across street from the University of California. And you got to remember, back then, photocopiers were really large. So his 100 square foot store, customers couldn't come in. Dave Young: That's mostly a photocopier, in those days. Stephen Semple: Customers would come up to the window and they would basically hand the stuff and it'd be copied and it would hand it back out the window. There was no room for customers in 100 square foot shop. Dave Young: Young people right now thinking about the size of a photocopier. When you're talking 1970s, think of your deep freeze in the garage and add about a foot to the height of it, a chest type deep freezer. And I mean, this was serious technology, super expensive piece of equipment, but up until things like this, the only way to get a copy of anything was to run a piece of carbon paper through your typewriter with the original. Stephen Semple: Well, here's how innovative photocopying was. And it wasn't originally called photocopying. It was originally called Xerography. That's the actual technical name for it, which is the reason why. It also then became known as Xeroxing things, but- Dave Young: Making a Xerox. Stephen Semple: And then for a bunch of reasons evolved in the photocopying, but I wish I remember which Bond film it was, but there was one of the really old Bond films where 007 breaks into an office, they lift up a photocopier from a crane and put it over so that he can photocopy some of these secret documents. When it's being done in a Bond film, it's amazing technology. Today we find it almost laughable. But going back to Paul, so Paul grew up being very business-minded. His whole family were entrepreneurs. His dad made clothes, he had uncles with various businesses with restaurants and all sorts of things. He enjoyed college,

I've been a television writer for the past 27 years. While I've written on some amazing shows, the work that I'm most proud of is my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It's the funniest, it's the deepest, and it's the one that will hit you hardest in the heart. These are the deeply personal, true stories of an awkward, sensitive man searching for the things that are most important: identity, love, forgiveness, and redemption. It's available now for your reading pleasure.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/A Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraA Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/bookFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Yeah, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is because you sold 'em the rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving them any creative input at all when the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to What the Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about the podcast where we explore art, creativity, and writing. Oh, it's a big announcement today, Phil. Phil's back, big dayPhil Hudson:Back. Happy to be back. Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Big day. We're finally building up. This has been a long project. Phil book, my book, A Paper Orchestra Drops or dropped if you're hearing this. It's available, it's, it's alreadyPhil Hudson:Dropped. It's available yesterday, so go get it now.Michael Jamin:It's called a paper orchestra and it's a collection of personal essays. If you're a fan of David Sedaris, I think of it as David Sedaris meets Neil Simon. And this has been my passion project for years. I've been working on this and I'm very excited to put it out in the world. As you can get it on print, you can get it on audiobook, you can get it as ebook, however you consume your books, and you can get it everywhere. You can go get it on michael jamin.com. You can find it on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble or Audible for the audio audiobook. Anywhere, anywhere you get Apple. If you want to get the ebook, it's everywhere, Phil. It's everywhere.Phil Hudson:It's like you got a real publishing deal except you didn't.Michael Jamin:Well, I'm doing it myself,Phil Hudson:And we'll go into that. I want people to understand you chose to self-publish this at this point, but that's not how we started. And we've talked a bit about that when we changed the podcast title and we talked a bit about it. We're talking about your live shows, but I think this is like, let's celebrate Michael Jamin a little bit today because you're always talking to people to build the mountain, to climb. You are now at the top of that mountain, and I imagine you're looking over and saying, oh crap, look, that other peak there I've got to get to now.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I already am. Yeah, for sure. Lot of it. And I hope this inspires a lot of you. There's so many people who are like, I want to sell my screenplay, or I want to help me break in, help me, help me. But there's so much that you can do. So unempowering disempowering, you're basically hoping that someone else is going to make your career, buy my script, make my movie. But there's so much that you can do on your own, and you may think it's more work because you're doing it yourself, but it's actually less work because now you don't have to count on someone else to do it for you. You can stop begging, you can stop worrying about all the rejection because when you're selling your scripts or trying to, you're going to get rejected by 99 out of a hundred people. But if you just build it yourself, there's so much you can do. The year we live in, it's so empowering. Everyone has a phone and you can shoot on your phone, you can make a movie. Everyone has a miniature movie studio. There's so much we all can do and on our own. And so I'm just going to share a little bit about the journey that I've been on when I started writing this book.So basically this started well over four years ago, maybe five years ago. I told my wife that I was just at a point in my life where I felt a little disheartened by, a little bored by what I was writing in television because when I write for tv, and I'm very grateful to have a job and a career, but I'm always writing what someone is paying me to write. And I'm very rarely writing what I want to write. I'm paying what someone pays me to write or what I can sell, but that's not how I started writing when I was in college and in high school. I just wanted to write what I wanted to write. And so I went for a walk with my wife one day and I was like, I have a really bad idea. I'm thinking of writing a collection of personal essays, which is what David Seras writes. And I love his writing. I've read everything. He's written multiple times. You show him your card, you got a card back there, don't you? Oh yeah. Yeah. He actually, I sent him a piece of fan letter, a fan mail three years ago. But I've read him so much. I knew that he would respond. He talks about, I knew he would respond. It just took him three years to respond, but it was very kind of him.So yeah, so I started writing. I wanted to write this project. I wanted to write what I want to write. I wanted to tell stories the way I wanted to tell them without network notes, without a partner, without. I just wanted to see what I can do on my own without having someone telling me what to do or breathing down my back or saying, no, it should be this or that. What can I do? And so I told that to Cynthia and she said, that's a great idea. And I said, but you don't understand even if I sell it, I'm not going to make a lot of money from it and it's going to take me years and years to do. She goes, you got to do it anyway, because if you do, you will find yourself in the process. And I was like, okay.And at the time, I was really in a bad place. I was just very upset about stuff mentally. I was in a bad place. I was like, okay, I'll start writing. And that's what I did. I remember I had listened to a lot of David C's audio books, but I had never read him. So I was like, I better read him. And then I bought a bunch of books and I read the first one. I remember I was lying in bed. I was reading the first book and I'm about halfway through and I'm thinking, where's this guy going? What's he doing here? Where's he going with this? And then I got to the end of the piece and the ending was such a wonderful ending. I was like, oh my God. And I almost threw the book across the room. I was, I was so mad.I was like, this is going to be so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be easy or natural, not easy, but just considering I'm a writer, I didn't think it would be that difficult. So then I just started studying him and I got all his books and I read them multiple times over and over again, and the more I read, I was just trying to look for patterns and trying to learn from him. And that kind of just began, that was the beginning of this journey just to study, study what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:You're constantly telling people to study their craft, and you talk about story and story structure. You have a course on that. Most of your content you put on social media is dedicated to helping people understand that your webinars are often about resetting people's expectations about what a writing career looks like and helping them focus on what really matters. And the undertone that I've witnessed over the last two, two and a half years of this process with you of at least starting the podcast and helping with social media and that stuff, it's all based under the reality or the realization that creativity is worth doing just to be creative and that there's value in that process beyond monetary pay or paychecks.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, for sure. When I first started writing these stories, the first two, first several were not very good. I was writing in David Sari's voice because I didn't know how else to do it. The ironic thing, as a TV writer, I'm always writing in someone else's voice. I'm writing in the character's voice or the voice of the show, but this is my voice, and this is the first time I actually had to do that. And so because I'm a good mimic and because I had just read so much of him, I was kind of writing, I was kind of the writer like him, and I thought the first two stories were good. And then I set it down for a couple of weeks and I read it with fresh eyes and I thought, oh, this is terrible. It felt like a cheap knockoff. It felt like me pretending I was him and I hated it.I threw all those stories out and then I had to figure out, okay, what's my voice? And that was a long discovery. But the reason why, this is a long way of saying this, those first several stories I wrote, I don't know, maybe six or seven stories, and it just take months and months. At one point, I reach out to my agent. I'm at a very big prestigious Hollywood agency. They do. They represent me in film and tv, and I reached out to my agent. I told him what I was working on. I said, Hey, do we have a book agency, a book department? He said, of course we do. What do I know? I tell him what I was doing. I said, can you hook me up with one of your agents? He goes, sure. So I reach out to their agents. This guy's in New York now, he doesn't have to take, just so people know, I told 'em what I was doing. He doesn't have to take me on as a client, but he has to take the call.I'm banging them. They got to take the call. He doesn't have to bring me on to represent him in books though. And so I told him what I was doing. He goes, oh, that sounds interesting. Send me what you have. I go, well, I only have a handful of stories, but I'll send you what I have. So I emailed them to him. I never heard back. I didn't hear back for probably six months at this point. And I'm still writing more stories. It doesn't matter, whatever. I'm thinking maybe he read it, he didn't read it, he doesn't like it, whatever. I'm not going to stop writing them though. And I just kept on writing all these stories. Finally, six months later, he reaches out to me. He goes, I'm so sorry it took me so long to read these. I love them. Let's get on the phone and talk about them.I was like, sure. He goes, and he was like, when we spoke, he said, he said, do you have any more? Because he only read whatever. I sent him maybe six stories, and I go, as a matter of fact, yeah, I'm almost done with the collection. Give me another couple of weeks and I'll send you the entire collection. So at that point, but again, I'm writing it because I want to write it. I want to do this. I'm not thinking about how much money I'm going to make. I'm thinking about the process of writing and figuring out how to learn. I had to relearn how to write because I'm a TV writer who now is writing books. There's a little difference. There's some difference to it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. A couple things here. I love the narrative, and I don't want to interrupt the narrative, but I think there's some topics that are coming up here. Is it okay if we just dive into those for a second? Yeah, please. Okay. You talked about David Sedaris and you were reading this and you're like, where is this going? And then it ended in this way. That was almost upsetting because it was so beautiful and so well done. What I'm hearing you say is something you talk about regularly on the podcast and in your social media content, which is the way you unpack your story is the job of being a writer. And that's almost effectively what I'm hearing is that's your craft and your tone and your style. You still have to understand story structure and you understand these things. But the unpacking, would you say that that's an example of what you're talking about when you say how you unpack something matters?Michael Jamin:Yes, and the thing is, I've really tried to study him. I think he's the gold standard. I think he's a master, a beautiful writer. There's certain things I was able to learn and certain things I was not able to unpack. And so I learned a lot from him for sure. But some things still remain a mystery to me from how he writes. I can't see through it, and I'm good at seeing through some stuff. So take that for what it's worth. I do remember thinking, I had long conversations with my wife when we were about this. I didn't want people to think that the book was written by a sitcom writer. I wanted it to be funny and dramatic, but I didn't want people to say, oh, this guy's, I wanted it to be a little smarter than just a sitcom, I guess. And so I was very self-conscious about that.And we had long conversations of Is this art? How do I make art? What is art? How do I do this? So it feels like art and what I really came, it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and it came from much of what I learned about how to do this. I learned not from writers, David is probably the only writer who I really studied a lot for this book, but I learned a lot from watching interviews with musicians, ironically, about how they approached their art. And I found that to be more helpful than listening to other writers. And one of the really interesting things, I was like, well, we know there's a market for what David Sedera says. We know people like what he does, so why am I trying to reinvent things? Why not just kind of do what he's doing? And there's two reasons why not.One, I'm not him. I can't be him ever. And that's almost the tragedy of the whole thing is I want to write, this guy can write, but I never ever will. So you're going to have to let go of that, which is almost tragic. But the other thing is, it's my responsibility not to, as an artist, if you want to make art, then add, you have to bring new to the equation. You have to bring new, and that actually, I picked up, I believe I picked up from an interview with watching Pharrell talk about music.Phil Hudson:That's awesome.Michael Jamin:Which is basically he's saying, listen, your job is to bring something new to the conversation, is to put the youness into it. Whatever is you, that's what you have to put into it. And that was very reassuring to hear it from him. I was like, oh, okay, now I can lean into me.Phil Hudson:This resonates with me. And what I wrote down here is that you can look outside of your space for inspiration. And I think this again ties to the fact that creativity is self, it's for the self. Rick Rubin, the producer, you're familiar with him. I think most people are at this point. I was just watched a clip of him in an interview and he said, I have never made music for a fan. When you do, it's bad when I make it for myself or when I do it because it's something that I like that resonates with the listener. And would you say that's what you're doing here is you're writing this for you in your tone because it's the best pure expression of your art?Michael Jamin:Well, yes, yes and no. Some of it, it's very truthful. It's very painfully truthful. It's very intimate. I go there. I think that's what makes it interesting. I think that's my job as a writer. It's my obligation as a writer is to figure out what the truth is and figure out how to tell it. But I also keep the audience in mind, and maybe that's just because of my background as a team writer.Phil Hudson:Yeah, you're an entertainer to a degree because that's what you do, is you want people to tune in for 23, 25 minutes per week, have a good time, forget their worries, and then leave having gotten something from what you've done. Well,Michael Jamin:It's also,Phil Hudson:But I don't know, that negates what Rick Rubin's talking about because it's like when you read, when you're putting out here, do you feel like you are getting the same value out of it that you would hope a reader would, or are you hoping the reader gets more value out of it than what you're getting out of it?Michael Jamin:Well, I don't know. I mean, first I keep them in mind. I picture my reader with a remote control in their hand. That's just become from me, a TV writer. So how do I make sure this story is compelling so that they want to turn the page? But I do keep them in mind in terms of how do I make this story not about me, but about all of us. And I think that's important because this has the danger of becoming very self-indulgent. These are true stories from my life, but I tell them in a way with art, so that you really feel like you're reading a character in a book. I am a character. The character of Michael is in this story, so it's not like, and then this happened, then this happened. I'm not telling you how I broke into Hollywood, although there are stories about that. I'm really telling you about the stories. These are stories of rejection. These are stories of triumph. There are stories there meant to be, the details are mine, but the stories are all of ours. So that's how I feel I'm telling them is like, okay, so that you can totally relate to this so you can feel, okay, I had something very similar and me explaining it to you helps you understand it, hopefully.Phil Hudson:And not to jump ahead, I saw you last year for my birthday, do a performance. My wife and I came out and there's a story, was it, is that what it's called?Michael Jamin:The Goul? Yeah, thePhil Hudson:Goul. Still a year later, 13 months later, still thinking about that goul because as a new father and then hearing your perspective as a father with children leaving the home, yeah, there's a lot of beauty and regret in that story that is paralleling the decisions I'm making now with my children who are young and what I want my life and my relationship to be like with them. So yeah, I think you absolutely check that box. You said, I've heard you say before, you want people to leave and sit there and think about it, have been impacted by what's happening. And I can tell you that that's been very true for me.Michael Jamin:That's been my, because, so Phil came to, I performed this, and if you want to see me perform, you can go to In Your Town if I travel with it, michael jamin.com/upcoming. But that's one of the stories. That's actually one of the stories I gave out to reviewers to review the book and people, they like that story. But yeah, my goal when I write any story, and hopefully I achieve this, is people say, I couldn't put it down. That seems to be the nicest thing you could say about a book. I couldn't put it down. I want you to put the book down. I want you to get to a chapter and just be so moved at the end of it that you're not ready to move forward. You just want to sit in that emotion for however long it takes you, whatever it is, just sit in it.I don't want you to, it's not meant to be consumed that way. And one of the things that I tried to achieve, I made, we did an audio book and I hired whatever. I partnered with Anthony Rizzo, who's the composer I worked with on Marin. He's a really talented writer composer. And so for the audio book, I would send him each chapter. And then I said to him, he's like, what do you want? I go, no, no, no. I want you to read this piece, interpret it. Tell me what it sounds like to you in music. What's your version of, he's an artist. What does this sound like to you in music? And that's what he came back with. And so at the end in the audiobook, if you prefer to consume it that way, at the end of the story, we go right into the music and it forces you, or not forces you, but allows you to sit in it. It allows you to sit in whatever motion it is. The music carries you out for 30 seconds or however long it is, just so now you can experience it in music, which I love that I just love. I thought he brought so much to the audiobook. I'm so grateful he hopped on board.Phil Hudson:I normally listen to audiobooks at 1.5 to 1.75 speed, and then the music kind of throws that off. This is one I would absolutely listen to in real time. JustMichael Jamin:Slow it down. Yeah, down,Phil Hudson:Slow it down and just sit in it and give yourself the treat and the opportunity to sit in that. I think very often we are constantly looking for the next thing or to get ahead or checking off stuff on our list. And that's not what this book is. This book is a sit in it, allow yourself to feel it. Think about how you can apply it. There's just some beautiful life lessons in here as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I hope so. That was my goal.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I think it's achieved. And I've talked to several people in your advanced reader group who feel the same way.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:And you've got fans in there, but these are people who are very sincere with their compliments as well. And there's some great compliments coming your way from that advanced group.Michael Jamin:And so thank you. Honestly, I like to do more of this kind of writing, and this is, to me is very fulfilling at this stage of my career. To me, it's more exciting doing this than writing a TV show that might be seen by millions of people writing something that can make someone just make you laugh, but then feel something. It's funny, I have sort of a recipe and I'm wondering, people can see through it at some point, but I don't really care. My recipe is if I can get you to laugh in the beginning, I just want you to open up. Let's just start laughing about stuff and it start, most of my stories start out very fun and light, and then you kind of relax into, oh, this is going to be fun. And you let your guard down, and as soon as your guard comes down, then I hit you as really hard, as hard as I can with something emotional where I talk about, and because you're in my writing course, you'll know where this happens, where this happens structurally. And then at that point, once I hit him in the heart, there's no point in being funny anymore. The humor has already achieved its goal, which is to you to get your guard down. And soPhil Hudson:Engaged, paying attention, it's something, some advice, I know it's standard advice, but it advice used specifically gave me a long time ago, which is it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh, and so you're almost checking the box on the humor part, so they're completely engaged and engrossed in what's going on, which is why the emotional impact of the reality of this story hits so hard later. Yeah,Michael Jamin:There were times I thought maybe I'm being too funny here in the beginning, I'm not even sure, but because I didn't want any of this to feel silly, I just wanted it to be fun until, but yeah, tonally, there's, I guess some stories are a little lighter than others for sure.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's good stuff. Going back to what you're telling though, in this narrative of how we got to where you are, you said that you reached out to your agent who got you in touch with the literary agent effectively for books and publishing, and a lot of people, myself included, might be tempted to submit to the agent and then wait and do nothing. And you made a point of saying you continued to write. And the question when he came back is, do you have more? So a lot of people, I think the mistake is that they're putting all their eggs in the basket. And we see this all the time with the questions on the webinars for the podcast, for your live q and as, when you do them on social media, whatever it is, how do I get an agent? How do I get a representative? How do I get a showrunner attached? How do I do this? And it's like you say you're putting all the power in the hands of somebody else and you're saying that's the wrong thing to do. And because you didn't, because you're writing for yourself to do the job, and you didn't wait for one person to make your career, you were even more successfulMichael Jamin:In getting, and he doesn't care. I mean, he's a good guy and everything, but he doesn't care if I achieve this. What does he care? All he wants is, is he going to make money from this? And that's fair enough. He has to make money, so my dream is my dream. I have to make my dream happen. And so yes, then turned it into him. We sent it out, and then the feedback I got was, Hey, this is really great, but platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? It means you need to have a social media following. I said, really? It's not good enough that it's well written. No, not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago. But today the industry publishing has changed as much as Hollywood has changed, it's really can they sell it? And now it's sold on social media. You're expected to have that.And I was a little upset about that. I was like, why can't it just be good enough? Everyone loved it, but platform drives acquisition. I said, all right, well, how big of a social media following do I need? This is two and a half years ago. And I couldn't get a straight answer that no one really knew, but especially in the space of They had a good point, Phil. They really did. It's not like this is not a novel. These are personal essays. But like I said, they're told story-wise, not if you didn't know me. You'd be like, oh, this is a nice story. But it just so happens that it's true. But the point that they made was, or maybe I made it with myself. I think that's what it was. I was like, if you were to go to Barnes and Noble and my book was on the shelf, why would someone buy it if they don't know who I am?Because there's true stories. Who cares if you don't know who I am? And that's a fair thing to ask. Why would someone pick it off the shelf? Now, here's the thing, as I was arguing with myself, but here's the thing. No one goes to Barnes and Nobles anymore. That's not where people get books. I mean, they exist, but most people just get it online. Most of the books are sold online. So why do I need to be in Barnes and no, I don't. I need, I mean, I can be, but it's not necessary. And so I was like, okay. And then I was like, well, if I build the platform, if I get a big following and people want to support me and buy the book curious and they like what I have to say and they think I'm talented, great. But then why do I need a publisher?What do they bring to the equation, honestly? Oh, they can get your book in barge. Oh, well, great, but no one goes there anymore. So what exactly did they do? And by the way, they get most of the money. I'm like, okay, well, they help you design the book cover, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is. You sold 'em the Rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving any creative input at all? When the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? I remember at one point, because I had talked to other people in the publishing world and they thought your title could be better. It's called the Paper Orchestra. I was like, yeah, but I think I like the title, but no one really knows what it means. And I'm like, yeah, you got a good point. No one knows what it means untilPhil Hudson:I remember this conversation,Michael Jamin:And then it was ironically, I had a long talk with my daughter. It was on my birthday, and we went for a long walk, and she's so smart, and she says, well, why are she said to me, I thought the whole point of the book was for you to just write what you wanted to write without anyone giving you No. I said, yeah. She goes, well, why are you changing the title? I said, yeah, why am I changing the title? Why am I second guessing myself? So I did it my way. I did a hundred percent my way, and this is my book.This is my expression without having anyone telling me it's wrong, it's different. It should be this or that. Along the way. I got to say, Phil, it's so frustrating for, it's so frustrating to hear this kind of stuff, I think, but it's like I understand what people want. I want this. I want a complete creative expression. And to me, that's the satisfaction. Whether I sell a hundred copies or one copy or a million copies, it's the process that I got so much joy out of. And I think that's what people will enjoy. I mean, it's like I had so many agents, even afterwards, they find me on social media, they reach out to me, go, and I tell 'em what my book is, and they go, oh, that sounds nice, but if you write a young adult novel, I can sell that for you. Or if you write a how to book, we can sell that. I'm like, if I don't want to write those, this is what I want to write. This is exactly what I wanted to write. You got to do it yourself.Phil Hudson:That's right. And that's what you tell people. You got to basically make your mountain, create your mountain, and then climb your mountain.Michael Jamin:And all of it's doable. It's just going to take a long time, but it's going to take less time to build your mountain and climb it than it's for you to beg someone to make your life.Phil Hudson:And begging someone to make your life means you owe them and they have power over you.Michael Jamin:And it's also, but you're going to hear no so many times you're going to get so much rejection. Who needs it? Why not just put all that creative energy into what you want to achieve instead of why are you wasting your energy hitting people up on LinkedIn? What's the point of that?Phil Hudson:This is something in business I'm bad about because we've talked about it before. I own a digital marketing agency. That was my career path before I moved to LA, and I still operate that agency, and we do nothing on LinkedIn. And I was like, well, you got to be on LinkedIn. That's where the businesses are. And I was like, I get that Our business is almost purely word of mouth, and it's because I'm not out shaking my can, asking people to put money in it. We stand on the value of the work that we do, and then that's referral work that goes out to other people. And that's not the way to grow to a business that's going to end up on the New York Stock Exchange or end up something you can trade. But what it is, it's a lifestyle business that creates a way for me to do what you're doing, which is to make my art, to be creative, to live my life the way I want without having to be beholden to somebody else dictating what I do with my time and my hours. And what I'm hearing you say is it's effectively the same thing for your book is had you gone with an agent who sold your book to a big publisher, you would now be mandated to do things in a certain way and you would've lost all of the same creative control. And it almost sounds like it would spoil the whole experience for you.Michael Jamin:It's hard to say. I mean, in the beginning, that's how I thought I had to do it. And then I realized I didn't have to who it could have been a great experience. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know, but I also know it's not necessary even a little bit, not in today's world. And if I do another book, maybe I will use a publisher, maybe not. I don't know. But the point is, if I do, they're going to pay me for it. You know what I'm saying? This first one's on me. I have to prove myself. Sure. If they want in on Michael Jamin, they're going to have to pay me or else, because now the power has shifted.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I can't remember if we've ever talked about this, but this came up in conversation this week's Kevin Hart, where he worked, traveling, doing standup comedy, getting names, getting emails after shows, building a fan base. And then when he got his first big deal, they were like, all right, and then we'll need you to send this out to your email list. And he said, it's a million dollars. And they said, what? He says, you didn't work to build that list. You don't get my people and mine. I put in the blood, sweat and tears on this. You did not. You're going to pay me for that blood, sweat and tears.Michael Jamin:And what happened?Phil Hudson:They paid him everyMichael Jamin:Time they paid him. Yeah. Pay the man and a lot of this, and you've helped out as well with enormously, just in terms of the podcast and help me with marketing and all that stuff and the website. Yeah, but it's still one of these things. Build it first. This is the order in which you need to do things when you make it first and then people will join in. People will want a piece of that. They either want to help you or they'll want part of your success or whatever. It's not the other way around. It's not, Hey, help me make my dream. No one wants to help you make your dream. No one cares about your dream. You build it first and then they'll come out of the woodwork and decide whether they want a piece of you or not, because they can make some money off of it.But it's so much more empowering when you look at it that way. It's like, Hey, I have something to offer here. I have something great. I'm not even offering it. I have something great here. Do you want a piece of it or not? And the answer, they know, okay, that's fine. I will do it without you. But it's the other, you know what I'm saying? It's not like, Hey, help me make it out. Hey, help me. Then you're begging. It's the other way around. I have something great and I'm going there. I'm doing it with or without you. Up to you, you can decidePhil Hudson:It's field of dreams, right? If you build it, they will come. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You got to build it first though.Phil Hudson:You got to build it first. You have to do the crazy thing. You have the lofty idea. You got to go make the baseball field in the middle of your corn field in Nebraska orMichael Jamin:Wherever. And people say, though, I don't know how to do that. But if you are a creative person and you want to get into a creative field, writing or screenwriting, whatever, be creative, prove how creative you are, you'll figure it out.Phil Hudson:Figure it out. Yeah, go cut your teeth. I think it's this metaphor for life though, which is we have to do things that are difficult and hard and things that we don't enjoy because that's how we learn and grow and get better. And redefining failure I think was a big deal for me because failure was something I just tried to avoid at all costs, to the point that I would do nothing if I thought I wasn't going to be 100% successful. So imagine doing that, trying to be a writer when writing is rewriting, you're not going to be okay the first 10, 15 drafts or whatever. Oh, god. And so if you have this fear of failure and what is failure? So redefining what these things means is very important. And when you start looking at failure, a lot of very smart people have said that failure is just the fastest way to get to success. You just have to fail as fast as possible so that you can achieve your goal. And it's just learning what not to do. And so many quotes about that.Michael Jamin:That's one of the things. Another thing that I picked up from another musician, David Bowie, as I was trying to figure out what art is, and he said something very similar. He said, art is basically is taking something from within yourself and figuring out a way how to express it so that you can help understand yourself and the world around you. And he goes, but to make something really great, you have to swim in water. That's just a little too deep to stand in. And that's when something great can happen. When you're in a little over your head, that's when the art is made. And it's the same thing what you're saying. It's like you got to do things that are out of your comfort zone, and that's how you achieve things.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So social media, being a public persona, subjecting yourself to just some of the most crazy things you've told me people say to you and your comments and your dms and just horrible things. HorribleMichael Jamin:Internet is horrible. I don't get a ton of hate, but I do get hate. But that's a double-edged sword of doing this. But also then it was also, okay, I put myself on social media as a screenwriter, as a TV writer, and here I'm sharing my expertise working in the business for 27 years, but I also have show you that I have to show you that I'm actually good at what I do, so that I try to make my posts funny. Or sometimes I just do a post. It's all funny so that you feel like, okay, maybe this guy can write as opposed to just me saying, I can write, showing you that I can write. So there's that kind of bridge I have to cross.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The exercise of putting yourself out there though is just something you were hesitant to for years and years and years. I think since I met you, I've been telling you, you need to be on social media. You need to grow a social media following, and it was just not your thing. And what I appreciate about your story with this book is you care so much about this book and doing this thing for yourself that you're willing to do the uncomfortable, which is be public facing person who is willing to put yourself out there almost every single day for two and a half years despite what anybody says, because that is what is required for you to make sure that you are able to have the maximum impact as you can with this thing that's so important to you. And that is something most people aren't willing to do.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book.Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show. I mean, I have people who go on social and things. I go on social media. There's a lot of influencers that I follow or whatever, usually experts in their field, but many of them, or most of them don't use their real name. They don't because they want that anonymity, and I don't blame them, but I can't do that. If I'm talking about my book, you got to know what my name is. And so I end everything is Michael Jamon writer. That's scary to put your real name out there. And so there's that as well.Phil Hudson:This is scary in a real way too. I'm aware of at least two police reports we've had to file for people who've been insane.Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's some insane people out there, but really insane and nothing too dangerous. I had to report,Phil Hudson:But its hateMichael Jamin:Speech. You still have to reportPhil Hudson:It. It speech, it's hate speech. It's threatening. It's angry language, and the things that you're talking about are wild. They're not invoking it. One of the compliments I think you get for people is how you respond to criticism. It's like you could destroy people because you have that capacity.Michael Jamin:I could do that with my words. You'rePhil Hudson:The definition of a good man, and the fact that you are dangerous with your words and you choose not to use it,Michael Jamin:I would believe me, I would tear them apart and make them look silly, but it doesn't help me any. It doesn't actually help me. So I just, I'm getting there rolling in the dirt with them, and then we both get dirty. So for the most part, I just ignore, but I also talk to other creators how they handle the same thing. It's this new internet fame. It's a strange territory.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Well, we were just talking earlier today about how you went. Did you go into a Kinko's or something to PrinceMichael Jamin:And stuff? Yeah, I went to a Kinko's. I got spotted in the wild.Phil Hudson:Yeah, somebody knew who you were and it was more common. Shout out Chris. Chris on the podcast, but it's like the first time, I remember the first time that really happened to you. I remember you told me You'll never believe what happened. I was out in this place and somebody shotted Michael Jamon Ry from their car. It's just a weird thing.Michael Jamin:It's just odd. Yeah.Phil Hudson:I've had a taste of that through association, and I've talked about it on the podcast as well, where we went to our wrap party for Tacoma FD season four, and one of the assistant editors comes up and he goes, dude, I got to tell you, my wife works in the industry and she's an accountant, and she brought over her accountant friend, and they were like, oh, what Jody do you work on? And he was like, I work on Tacoma Dean. And she's like, oh, I listen to Phil Hudson's podcast.Michael Jamin:Oh,Phil Hudson:Wow. And he's like, I didn't even know you had a podcast. I was like, ah. It's a strange feeling. And then later that night, one of our accountants, it must be accountants who listened to our podcast, they brought someone over to the party's like, yeah, listen to your podcast. I was like, it feels weird. And I'm not even Michael Jammin. I'm just a guy who's on there.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's strange to put yourself out there like that, but you're doing it,Phil Hudson:But you're doing it.Michael Jamin:I'm doing it, but I also, yeah. And also, listen, if you want to know more about me, then you'll definitely read the book. The book is very vulnerable, but it's still weird. I don't know. I felt like, well, David Sedaris can do it. I can do it. But I also, I think that's interesting about, I do think that's interesting about this kind of writing is that as opposed to writing a novel that you're making up and you are making up these characters, I feel like the stakes are higher when you're reading something like my book, because you, oh, this character's real, and he's really going through, it's not like when you're reading a fake a movie or watching a movie or reading a book, a novel and the character dies or whatever gets injured or something. Part of you can still say, okay, it's still made up. It's not real. That's just an actor going through something and the actor's pretending. But when you read this, you go, oh, this is real. This is a real person. This is not made up. And I do feel like it raises the stakes, and in some way, I feel like this is my answer to ai, to what if everyone's worried that AI is going to take writer's jobs? This is my answer to that, which is, AI cannot do this. AI is not capable of telling a story about me. That's real. I have to do that.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Someone just yesterday I saw someone posted that asking AI to write about, to write about something is having them listen to a thousand hours of people talking about pizza and then asking it to make a pizza is just like, it's not going to come out. It's just not going to come out.Michael Jamin:I get a lot of people in my comments and they'll say things when I talk about ai, you clearly don't understand ai, and I want to say, you clearly don't understand writing. That's what you don't understand. Yep.Phil Hudson:It's the human condition. I mean, we've been talking about this forever. That's what Star Trek is, right? It's data figuring out what it means to be human. The thing that comes to mind for me is this, for random clip, I saw probably when it was airing real time in the early nineties, and my dad was watching it and it's data talking about how, oh, boy, time flies. And he couldn't understand the expression, time flies. And so he sat and watched an egg boil over and over and over again. He's like, it takes exactly eight minutes and 32 seconds or egg to boil because he couldn't understand or comprehend it from the machine side. And so it's all about that. Even machines want to be more human. And rioting is exploring the human condition. Yeah,Michael Jamin:That's right. That's right. So if you want to understand yourself and you write, and then to me getting back to the book, that's what this process was figuring out who I am, figuring out who I, and it's so interesting because all these patterns kept on emerging. I got write a story and I'd get halfway through it, and I'm thinking, why would this character, and let's say this story is something that I did when I was 11 or whatever, why would this character do that? Why would I have done that? And a lot of times I just didn't know, why would I do that? It didn't make sense. Then I'd write something, I'd go, no, that doesn't feel true. That feels like the TV version. What's the real version? And then I'd have to think of another memory from that time. And I think, oh, I wonder if those two are related. And now I'm figuring out who I am. And I'm like, oh, that's why I would do that. That makes sense. Which is so interesting to finally be able to understand yourself at the end of this book. I'm like, oh, I know who I am.Phil Hudson:In some of my research for one of the pilots I wrote about special operators in the Seal team, six Delta fours, green Berets, army Rangers. I was listening to a bunch of podcasts, and one of 'em was talking about this principle that your level of trauma or your level of struggle is the same as mine. Even if something I've been through has been more horrific. From an objective perspective, our perception of my worst trauma and your worst trauma are equally impactful. And I'm wondering, we had very different childhoods, and we've talked a bit about mine and a little bit about yours, but does that process of exploring, why would you do things as a child? Is that healing for you?Michael Jamin:And it was healing and helpful. A lot of these stories, I feel, are apologies to various people I've heard over my life, and it's not written to be an apology, but when you're telling the truth, it's an apology. When you're acknowledging your end of it, it's an apology. And so I'm not writing it, Hey, please forgive me. It's just about the truth. And so, yeah, I really, it's so helpful, and hopefully this is what people will respond to. When you read the book, you go, oh, man, yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for putting to words what I couldn't do because I'm not a writer. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's the stuff that stays with us, right? It's a metaphor for things we're going through. And I think one of the most impactful lessons I learned in film school was the cool job effect.Michael Jamin:What is that?Phil Hudson:So it was this Russian director who showed the same shot of a man, and then he put it against a starving child or a child in a casket or food, or a beautiful woman. And at the end, everyone came up. And that actor was incredible. When he looked at the food, I could feel his desire for food. When he looked at that girl, I could see the pain of her death. And when he saw the woman, I could feel the lust. It's the exact same shot of the same man. And it's the subjective projection that one puts onto art that allows you, it's an unconscious way for you to make sense of your world and import what your experience is in on something, which is why art has always been a part of humanity. It's why it's something that we have always, I think, sought after. It's not entertainment from a sedation perspective where we're trying to avoid it. Sometimes it's that, but very often the things that impact us and mean something, they are things that we need to experience because they make sense. They allow us to make sense of our world.Michael Jamin:Right. That's a good point that you point that out. Yeah. It's like I feel like I've played a part of that in writing sitcoms sometimes, and there's a place for it. You'll come home after a long day, you just want to thrown out and laugh and really not be challenged and not go there, but for this piece. And there's nothing wrong with that. People want to be entertained. But for this,Phil Hudson:People still learn from that too, that people need that, and it serves a role too.Michael Jamin:They need that. But for this, I didn't want that. I wanted to go way deeper than that. I wanted to because I wanted to feel something. Because my contention as a comedy writer, and I know this is true, is that when you write that humor, write something funny. Or if you go, sometimes you'll go see a standup who's hilarious, but then you leave and you are hard pressed to remember one joke that you liked, or you're hard pressed to remember what you even liked about it. You go, I just spent an hour laughing, but I don't really remember any of it. I know I enjoyed myself, but I can't, it's not with me anymore. And what I really wanted to do was write something that would stay with you after this. So you were still feeling like we talked about, you're still feeling it. And you can't just do that with comedy. You have to mix drama into it. Because comedy, that's not what comedy does.Phil Hudson:Well, I mean, your course and what I've seen you do in your craft and sitcoms as well, this is really key point, is why do we care about this thing? The reason we don't care. That's the story. And that's the personal, and that's the people. And so, I mean, this has been your point, and what you've been teaching for years and years anyway is none of it matters unless it means something. And that is the drama part of the comedy. That comedy can break things and it can move us and give us that ebb and flow and that roller coaster effective emotions. And those are beautiful experiences to have in sitcoms or dramas or dramedies. But it's the, why are we watching this? It's the human thing. It's that human piece. That's what you're saying. That's what I'm hearing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What's at stake here? What's really at stake? And again, I studied other writers. Some I thought did it great, and some I didn't think did it well at all. And so I was trying to hold myself to that higher standard of the ones who did it really well, because I knew what I, what I wanted out of this.Phil Hudson:And again, we've started by saying, you've climbed this mountain, and there's another mountain.Michael Jamin:There's another mountain. Sometimes people have said to me like, well, are you going to turn this into a TV show? It's so odd. It's so odd. Or a movie that somehow I was even watching, what was I watching, American Fiction, that movie. And there's a line in it where this author, she had a book that was a bestseller, and then she's giving an interview and someone said, oh, maybe they'll a hear. They're making a movie out of it. And she's like, well, I can't tell you anymore as if a movie is better than a book or a TV show is better than a book. A book could be a book, a book. What's wrong with a book? Just being a book.So I don't either have any plans to turn this in TV show. If anyone, could it be me? I am a TV writer. I could have very specific ideas on how I would want to do it, and whether a buyer would want to do that or not, I don't know. But I wouldn't compromise how I'd want to do it. But the best way to make it happen, if it did happen, I would have to sell a lot of books first. So if anyone wants to see it happen, then get a book. And then I would actually make content behind the scenes on TikTok, Hey, look at me now I'm meeting with this studio. And now if that's the ride you want to go on, then in order to go on that ride, I have to sell a lot of copies. But again, that's not my goal. Show support. You can if you're curious, but again, that's not my goal. The goal of this was only one thing. I want to write a book that moves people was never a TV show. I can write a TV show. I write TV shows. That's not what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:And if you want to be moved, you have to buy a copy of the book because if you're listening to this and you want to experience what Michael has put together, you have to buy a copy of the book because that is, I know the number you've invested significantly into just making this happen for yourself. This is not some random cousin who's like, Hey, I wrote a book and I put it on Amazon publishing. This is the real deal. I mean, lift your book up if you don't mind, so people can see the cover. This has been out for a minute, but even just the story of this cover and how you got this cover and found this artist and license, it is a beautiful story in and of itself.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Okay. That's another thing. So I wanted to cover,Phil Hudson:Before we dive into this, I just wanted to point out too, when you were talking about, you looked at all these other writers and people and you said, that's who I want. That's the level I want to be at. You've done this one. Whatever you do next, you're still going to be saying the same thing. All right. What's the next level of professionalism or craft that I can get to? And that's because you are a pro, and that's what you tell people to be a professional, which is constantly striving to be better than the last time.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There are a lot of writers or authors, maybe indie authors, they're cranking out books. I'm like, Jesus, I cranked this out. This took four years. I didn't crank this out. This was worked on really, I really worked on it.Phil Hudson:But talk about your cover. I apologize for interjecting there. I just wanted to get that point across that you're still going to be pursuing that. Excellent. And that's what makes people stand out. Excellence stands out in a world, I hope so.Michael Jamin:Yeah, make something good and people will, okay, so for the cover, I wanted a good cover, but the book is funny and it's also very poignant. And so I looked at other books that I thought were really good, and so I found this one guy who had actually designed some of David Sari's early covers. I didn't know this guy, but obviously he gets comedy. So I read, his name is Steve Snyder. I just found him on Instagram. I don't know him from a hole in the wall. And I DMed him. I slid into his dms and I told him what I was working on, and I told him, I noticed how weird it's for me to reach out to him. And he goes, oh, well, send me your manuscript. So I did. And then a couple weeks went by, he wrote back. He goes, I love it. I'm in. And now this guy, he's like 80 or something, but he was retired. He goes, I'll come back out of retirement to make the cover for you. I go, great, but just so you know, I don't know what my budget is. He goes, oh, I'll do it for free. I want to be part of it. I love it. I want to be part of it.Phil Hudson:Wow, Michael, just let that sit. I know you've internalized that, but we talk about to everybody. You got to own the wins and you got to celebrate the victory. He's like, what does that mean to you that this accomplishedMichael Jamin:Desire? It was very validating. It was very, and then I was like, alright, well, I'll just figure out what I'm going to pay you later, but, but then as we were moving down the line, he's retired, so he was getting, I just made plans. I'm going to be traveling from, he goes, I want to do this, but I don't think I can get it done on time. He goes, I was like, okay, I don't want to, okay, maybe you can refer somebody. So he recommended one of these accolades, one of the people he trained under him. And so I reached out to her same deal. And so I want hiring her, Jenny Carro. She did a wonderful job with the cover, but getting the cover. And then when we finally got the cover and I reached out to Steve again, I go, here's the cover.You want to see it? And he goes, oh, damn. I love it. I wish I didn't drop out. That's awesome. But what happened with Jenny? So she came back with a bunch of covers that were good, but they didn't feel right. There was something about it didn't feel right. It was like almost, and then she had one cover, and I hate to keep going back and forth with her. I was like, I don't want to discourage her. So one was almost good, almost like right, but not quite right. And then I was intent. I was going to use it. And then for some reason I happened to see an ad on Facebook. It was an article about artists or whatever. So I click on this article and I'm reading the article, and then there's other, I see the cover that she was going to license for my, she was going to license some artwork for my cover, and I recognize it.I go, that's it. And I click on it to discover more about what this artist had done. And then, which took me to his website or his Instagram page, I don't remember. And then I discover all his other work and I go, that's the one. So this is a licensed piece of art from this Dutch artist named Tune Juin. And I reached out to him, I want to license this art for your book, for my book. And he goes, great. It was just a boy sitting on words. And the title is a paper orchestra. And so it's not, what does it mean? It's just a boy struggling with words. That's all it is. And that's what the book is. It's about a boy who grew up to be a man who struggled with words.Phil Hudson:Do you remember what I told you when you told me that story? You remember what I calledMichael Jamin:It? What did youPhil Hudson:I said, that's Providence.Michael Jamin:Providence, yeah. There was a lot of that. There was a lot of just, Hey, that's the universe telling me this is what your cover should be. And once I saw it, I go, that's it. We're done. We're done. We could stop looking.Phil Hudson:And then here's an artist who is putting art out that I would consider to not be standard, normal art that you would think about in a normal way. And then here he is featured in this article, and then here, now you're reaching out and his art is now supporting and improving your art. It's a beautiful thing.Michael Jamin:And then the same thing with Anthony Rizzo, who did the music. When I got him aboard, I go, listen, Anthony, I'm making this audiobook. I don't know how much I can pay you. He goes, I don't care. I want to be part of it. So I was like, okay. And then I had a small budget for him, but then I got this brand deal from Final Draft. I go, oh, good. I can give him whatever I was going to pay him. Now I can pay him additional money from this brand deal. It doesn't come really out of my pocket. Its money. It's kind of found money. So I just give it right to him. That's great. That'sPhil Hudson:Great. I love that, man. Your network will pay in spades if the work you do is quality and you're a good person. I've seen that for you. I've seen that for myself. I've seen it in lots of other people. People want to be a part of your project if what you're doing means something and you're kind. And if you were Dick, imagine you were the showrunner and you were throwing tantrums and going on Tirades on Marin. Do you think anybody, I would want to work with you on this.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But there's that. And like I said, there's also build it for, if I started this by saying, reaching out to these people on Instagram or whatever, Hey, I have this idea that I want to make. Will you be part? No, come back to me when you're done, basically. And so for everyone who has a movie they want to make or a scene, alright, shoot a scene on a park bench with your phones. They're like, you don't need to spend $10,000. You could do it for 50. Whatever you need.Phil Hudson:Jamie Kaler, who I think you're going to have on the podcast, he just Captain Polonsky on Taco D and a bunch of other stuff. I had a long running series as well. He's got a series that he did with another known actor called Dad's in a Park, I think is what it's called. It's him on a bench with another dad just talking about dad stuff.Michael Jamin:And where's that on YouTube?Phil Hudson:I'll find it. I think it's on YouTube and Instagram. But it's so real and funny. It's like, yeah, this makes sense. And it's two great actors who are just doing their thing. And it plays and it plays really well. It's very funny.Michael Jamin:And when you look at people doing interesting things, this is what I say, people who are just popping, who just broke onto the Hollywood scene somehow. Somehow they have a special on Netflix or somehow they're a star of a show or a movie, whatever. Look how they did it. They did it themselves. And then Hollywood discovered them because Hollywood was like, oh, we can make money off this person.Phil Hudson:It's the fable. It wasn'tMichael Jamin:The other way around.Phil Hudson:It's a fable of overnight success that is never overnight success. There was always something before that. EveryMichael Jamin:Time, these are people who are already building it, people like me, people like you who are already building it, and then people see go, oh, what's that fool over there building? I want in on it. And that fool's going to say, well, you can be in or you can either way. I'm doing it without you. So come along for the ride if you wantPhil Hudson:Going to happen. I had love to talk about some of the endorsements of your book, if that's okay. I don't want to embarrass you with some of this stuff. How do you feel about telling the John Mayer story?Michael Jamin:Oh my God. That's anotherPhil Hudson:Thing. I think it's a great story. And I'll just say this. Michael will always be very hesitant about bringing in friends or colleagues to talk about his stuff. And he's made it ver

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Joe has a book “Agile Kata” in the making, if you like to be the first to know when it launches, please visit www.agilekatabook.com.KataCon10 in Indianapolis April 9-10, 2024Transcript: Agile F M radio for the agile community. [00:00:05] Joe Krebs: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Agile FM. I'm here today with Jim Huntzinger, who is speaking with me about behavioral patterns. We'll talk a little about the history of Kata. This is the Agile Kata series on Agile FM. So my goal is to bring you people closer from the Kata community to the Agile community and build bridges.So Jim is here with me today. Welcome to the show. [00:00:35] Jim Huntzinger: Yeah. Thank you, Joe. It's great to be here with you. [00:00:37] Joe Krebs: Yeah, and Jim, you are with the Lean Frontiers and as the name indicates, Frontier on many things including the KataCon conference, or actually there's different kind of names, but it emerged.And for all the listeners here on Agile FM who have been going to Agile conferences for a long time, and they are hearing possibly about Kata the very first time they would be surprised that this is going into the 10th year, this conference, the KataCon this year in 2024, and it's going to be in Indiana, [00:01:12] Jim Huntzinger: Indianapolis, you have caught a content in Indianapolis.So yeah, part of will be celebrating I guess the 10th birthday for it at the conference. [00:01:19] Joe Krebs: That is awesome. 10 years in the making, obviously, we want to go down memory lane a little bit together. Today there was obviously a starting point where you got exposed into Kata and scientific thinking.And I would like to go back, like, how did this all start for you? And for all the listeners here, what is an interesting piece of information is there is A person out there who started it like way, way back, 1890s, even. So, let's go [00:01:50] Jim Huntzinger: 1830s around the [00:01:52] Joe Krebs: 1830s, Jim, how did this all start for you?[00:01:57] Jim Huntzinger: Yeah. So, so yeah, I'll tell a little bit about, I'll tell my background, which a little bit of my history, which will bring in some of the. Older history that correlates and also a lot with TWI training within industry, which correlates as well too, and that'll actually come together on kind of that scientific thinking and scientific behavior.So anyway, when I came out of school, I my first job out of school was with a company that was a Toyota group company. That was in the process of transplanting in North America to support the Toyota plants. At that time there was the Toyota in Canada, the NUMMI plant, the joint venture with General Motors in California, and the Georgetown plant, which wasn't even started yet.It was, They were still setting it up at the time I started. And I went to work for Aisin, and they were a Toyota group company. And it's obviously a supplier into the transplanting here to supply into those plants. So, you know, part of my responsibility, I was a manufacturing engineer was helping ramp up the manufacturing processes.As we as we ramped up the plant and when I got there, my half the plant wasn't even built yet. So I was there through the actual construction of half the plant and we were doing great components drums, rotors brake boosters, oil pumps, water pumps on my part of the plant. So I went to Japan for nine weeks to train on the processes we had, the products.I went to different Aisin plants. where the products were made Toyota plant and also get training on the Toyota production system, which at that time didn't really have any meaning to me, you know, but we learned it. So came back and went through that ramp up process. To do that. So from there I left because I want to get more involved in the upfront process development because that was done by the Japanese of engineers, of course.So I moved to Wisconsin and took a job with Briggs and Stratton, who at that time, this is in 1990, were one of the first companies to really do some of the this lean stuff, trying to physically do it. So I was brought in here because supposedly I knew something about TPS, you know, haven't worked for Aisin.But the nice thing about that is basically we had a sandbox to play in. The guy I worked for said go find something you're interested in. Obviously it's beneficial to the company and go do it. So we were, you know, implementing flow production at a relatively now, even looking back now, 30 years, 30 plus years at a very rampant rate across the plant.So we did machining. And assembly of small engines for Briggs and Stratton. Now, the nice thing with me working for Aisin, even though it was a Toyota group company had TPS in it versus Toyota. Obviously Toyota is the practitioner of TPS, but their product is a great big, huge automobile. So you don't physically get all those correlations as easily since it's this big product versus when I worked for Aisin who made components.So the components correlated to the components we made at Briggs of doing one piece flow. So we were doing that, putting in standard work. We got involved with the Shingijutsu out of Japan. And we were doing, we internalized our own Kaizen workshops to do all that, implementing this. So in the course of doing that we changed the plan around entirely and actually a very rapid time all considering.And even to this day, let's go back 30 years ago, the basic designs of the cells, you know, one of these slow cells were actually. Pretty good. The things and attributes we did were very much one piece flow. So partially correlating it to Kata you know, one thing with the improvement Kata is you need to understand your direction or the challenge.Well, essentially our challenge back then was One piece flow, everything we did, we wanted to achieve one piece flow. And in that we had machines, obviously mostly machining the, actually some of the grinders I worked with when I got the manuals to them, the date on the manuals was prior to the U S being bombed at Pearl Harbor.So we had machine tools of that old up to an old, every place in between, you know, newer CNC equipment. So we're trying to put all this into true one piece flow. Now, we did that successfully, but the problem is we couldn't get the consistency that I had seen at Aisin of the consistency of output, consistency to tactile.And I, I didn't really know why, but I knew, you know, working for, you know, Japanese company, actually even some of the managers and engineers here, 37 years later, I still stay in contact with. Japanese are humans like everybody else. I knew they had to have some thing, whatever this thing was. That they were using that we just didn't know about and all that.So over the course of time, I ended up a number of years later, writing a couple books were published, one by Jeff Liker and one by Masaaki Imai. Jeff Liker's, I think, first book Becoming Lean and the one by Misaaki Imai, Gemba Kaizen, around 1997. And I read Liker's book and in it, it mentions this thing called TWI, Training Within Industry, in about a sentence or two.And I thought, what, and World War II program. I thought, what the heck does some World War II program have to do with the Toyota production system? Well, that's interesting, move on. The, about two months later, I miss, Imai's book, it has a couple pages discussing training with industries. And I just, I've got to find out what the heck some World War II program has to do with the Toyota production system.So I started diving into it. Just to jump forward a few years, it took me a while to dig. I was calling Washington, D. C., the archives, just trying to gather up information. And eventually, finding that the Depository Libraries of the United States was supposed to have information on it in the Milwaukee Public Library I finally found some information that there was a report done, which I was able to, in the library alone, to get this 300 page TWI, post World War II, written 1945 report.Got it, went to Kinko's, made copies of it, and then sat on it because I thought, I don't know how excited I am to read a 300 page government report. But eventually I went through all the work to get it. So I eventually pulled down and read it and started reading it. And I couldn't believe what I was reading.What I was reading through the report was it was correlating some of the things I had learned, you know, somewhat indirectly at Aisin. And also when we use the Shingijutsu group, some of the verbiage, it gave me the link to the manuals they use during the war. So I was able to start getting those through a library loan.And as I got the first one, the job methods. One is about improvement and read it. The language verbatim in that manual from 1943 was verbatim. What we had learned with like in Shingijutsu and some of that stuff. But now I understood the source. I understand what it's doing. So that kind of started this, the TWI.Now that now the importance of this TWI is if you look at all the main programs, job instruction is about training. Job methods is about improvement and job relations is about leadership and people problems. All of them used. I have some of the cards here. All of them use a the four step four step methodology based on the scientific method.Now the history with TWI because I got into that is it goes back to at least 1830. So a German philosopher and educator named Johann Harbert had developed a five step program to educate kids. Pedagogy. Five step method. In the 1830s. So in Europe, there are people, they called him herbations.So European herbations that followed his philosophy American herbations that did too. And one of them was a guy by the name of Charles Allen, Charles Skipper Allen. And I, and he was one and he took Harbert's five step methodology and he put it into a four step method, methodology that he called job instruction.And he wrote a book. He wrote a book on it. Around 1918. It's like a 500 page book just on the four step method. It's an amazing book. So in depth, but basically that job instruction when we get when the U. S. Got into World War Two, the guys they put in charge of the T. W. I. Program 3 of the four that were in charge of it.One had worked for Alan directly. The other two have been trained by so they pulled that job instruction forward. Yeah. And that became TWI job instruction and eventually pulling from some other, I won't go through all that history job methods, which is I industrial engineering techniques. That really has their base in the Gilbreth, some of the pioneers in industrial engineering and a guy named Alan Mogenson put that into place.So that was the instructing, the improvement, and then eventually job relations was leadership. So that comes into Toyota post World War II in the early 1950s, as Ono had struggled implementing flow production, trying to emulate the Ford motor company. One piece flow, as we call it today. And he'd struggled with it in their machine shop for about eight years.When the TWI program came in during the post war occupation through their training department, Ohno grabbed onto that. J I all three of them, J I J M and J R. And that's when he started succeeding. Yeah. So see implementing flow production, trying to emulate early Ford motor company. Yeah. So it's all based on a scientific method.[00:11:12] Joe Krebs: Absolutely. And this is, I think this is where we're, we want to go with it. It's the second, this is a great that you're going back in time because I think this is important for everybody to see that this is not like the latest, greatest trend that just emerged just recently. And we'll you were talking about Kata, you know, in a brand new way this has been a well established thinking patterns.Now just to go quickly back to this Johan n Harbart he if I understand this, right, he applied this in a five steps. But that was more on the educational level. He's redesigned instruction for kids in schools, I would assume, and colleges. And so, [00:11:50] Jim Huntzinger: Yeah. So it's for educating kids pedagogy type of thing, although it's very much on.On practicing, which again correlates to what Charles Alan did. He Charles Allen was actually vocational trainer. That's why he was a probation and took that and put it into, because he was trying to train people, especially in shipbuilding on, in, in the, you know, night 1890s, 19. Early 1900s and all that.So he was trying to train people. So it was a very pragmatic way to, to educate children by practice. And he put that into, in a way, educating, training people in vocational training. [00:12:26] Joe Krebs: Yeah. So as a community of Kata thinking, we could say we're speeding things up quite a bit now. Like there were 1830s, 1890s, 1900s 20th century, right?But now things get really into motion and we, you mentioned some of those books the, we're increasing the rate of publications, I think that's what's what has been seen. So I think. Scientific thinking applied outside of education possibly even outside of lean manufacturing becomes really interesting.And that's why we have you on the, in the Agile Kata series, right? How can these things possibly influence things outside of lean manufacturing? [00:13:02] Jim Huntzinger: And I want to, and I'll bring this to Toyota. So, the TWI stuff, as I researched, it was the late 1990s. And very early 2000s. So Mike publishes Toyota Kata in 2009.So, so I got that and read it. And Mike's always been a person that just does a good job of taking things, parsing them down and articulating them very succinctly. Mike's always been very good at that. So I read Toyota Kata and I'm going, what I'm reading through there, I love because this is exactly the behavioral patterns we were doing back in my days.When we were implementing it, Briggs and Stratton. Now we weren't doing it near to the prescriptive level, near to the discipline level, near to any of that, that Mike was doing, but the fundamental patterns. We were doing like for example, like I said, our challenge was one piece flow. We would have to go out and establish the current condition.We didn't use that terminology, the current condition, the machines or the processes as they were, and then we'd have a what our target condition was, how do we put those into one piece flow and we would go through iterative steps. We were practicing scientific method is mainly because we didn't have a choice.We weren't quite sure what we were doing. So we had to go through these iterative steps to figure it out. So experimentation, like Mike says, and my favorite diagram he has in Toyota Kata, he has the one where, you know, on each end, he has the current condition and a target condition. Then kind of in between them is this unclear territory.And that's why I related to it so much. That's exactly what we were doing when we were doing that lean thinking what now all the, you know, there's a few books but not much. There was no internet. So we had literally do this, learn by doing, which actually came from TWI actually learn by doing. So we were doing it through iterative steps, this unclear territory to get it.So that's why the Toyota kind of related to me. And then it gave a pattern, a better, more prescriptive pattern. And also too, when Mike was researching that, as he looked at these different companies, practicing it, none of them did it exactly alike. They had their own way. But of course, again, that's what Mike's good.He had to put it into something a little more prescriptive in order to articulate it back out to everybody, so people could grasp it, you could practice it, people could learn it. Right. And ultimately it is, and that's why the book, I have it here. Sylvain Landry's book bringing scientific to life is so important because that's really, that's what TWI is practicing scientific behavioral patterns, Kata goes through that practicing scientific behavioral patterns so that.You don't think your way through practice, you practice your way to thinking.. And that's what these are about. And that's why again, Toyota Kata is. So important about practicing so you get in that pattern, it just becomes natural and instinctive. [00:15:42] Joe Krebs: Oh, yes. And the terminology as you said, you reused other terms, right? I think when people are looking at these behavioral patterns, they're realizing, Oh, these are things I have done in a very similar way.And that's good. Right. And you might have used different terminology. I think the benefit of using a consistent terminology within an organization, let's say. It's obviously we all know what, where we are in terms of the journey, but that might change over time. Right? So I think as long as the pattern stays the same, the behavioral patterns.Yeah, one thing with that, I'd like to say over the years is I'll use this and this illustrates the importance of practice and continuing practice. So I say if if you're not using Kata or even TWI the same in three months, that's a problem. Because you need to practice the pattern, practice the behavior.But the other part of that is, if you're using if you're using Kata or TWI the same in three years, that's a problem. Because you should be learning it, so it becomes instinctive, so you do expand out your ability to use it. And it can be used, I realize, anywhere there's people and processes. You can use it.It doesn't have to be in manufacturing. It could be in healthcare. People are successfully using healthcare. In some of the insurance companies, I know people are using these. Anywhere there's people and processes, it's a, it helps you to be more successful because you're using that pattern, those behavioral patterns of scientific thinking.Yeah. To solve problems and move to a better level. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Your KataCon conference, just to come back to that for one more moment, it's like, I think it's a representation of exactly what you just said. It's like who comes to these conferences, right? It's a broad mix of people. Yes.[00:17:25] Jim Huntzinger: Yeah. Yes. Broad mix of people out of different industries, broad mix of people at different levels along their journey. [00:17:33] Joe Krebs: Yeah. And you're all running as part of these conferences or you have ran these kind of onsite, but also workshops in parallel to these conferences, right? But they are more focused on the lean manufacturing side, if I'm not mistaken, right?But that is very hands on practical skills. Yeah, [00:17:49] Jim Huntzinger: Very hands on. In the case, the comp, so the conference we try, what we do is try to bring together the community. So we, with Lean Frontiers, I guess we like to say we like to build communities within the lean community. So, you know, we've had a lean accounting communities, of course, the Kata community with KataCon, TWI community, product, you know, lean product development, so communities within there.And it's a chance what we want to do is bring together thought leaders, practitioners, sometimes academics, people to come in and just share what they're doing and learning with each other within that community. With our intent is hopefully people make connections and get to know each other. So we don't, we just don't want them there together.You know, the two days or three days of the conference, we like to make them good networking connections. So as they go out the other 300 and some days out of the year they talk with each other. They communicate, they, they help, they share, try to bring what's going on together. So people go out and do good things with it and hopefully come back a year later.Continue to share what they've learned over the last year. Yeah. [00:18:47] Joe Krebs: And Jim how, like for somebody who is like maybe in the agile community right now, it says, this sounds very interesting. I'm listening to the Kata series. I'm starting to maybe read one of the books you you mentioned you on this podcast, how.What's the speaking situation? Like, who's speaking? What's the format of this conference? Because the scientific thinking is you know, is obviously in the forefront of that and the behavioral patterns you're pointing out. But what's the format? Or do people have to envision this conference to look like it's two days, right?[00:19:17] Jim Huntzinger: So what we do with the KataCon, actually, we actually run the KataSummit, KataCon same thing. And the TWI Summit, we run them concurrently. Because there's obviously, just because of the deliberate practice and scientific, there's so much correlation. But we always like to say, if people want to come and all they want to do is Kata, we got them covered.All they want to do is TWI, got you covered. If they want to mix it up, however much they want, they can do that. But we have, Keynotes and our keynotes are usually shorter. Try to make them just the pace, you know, like shorter 15 or 20 minute keynotes we have going on. We have breakout sessions where some are by practitioners.So you're learning what people are doing in companies, some by some thought leaders where they could expand a little bit more. A lot of times they're usually working with companies about what they're doing. We have some deep dive sessions where they're even a little bit longer. They're almost like a, kind of a mini sub workshop where people can go in and practice, you know, some of the aspects a little bit more.We actually have workshops. We have like a level set, a TWI level set and a kata, like their half day kata level set. So if you're kind of new, you could come in and kind of get up to a baseline. So you can, that's pre summit. So you can get more out of the summit, but we have some workshops and then even.Post summit. We have a Kata dojo workshop by Tilo Schwartz, who him with just another good book, giving wings to your team and all that. And we also do the 10 hour session so that TWI was trained actually the same format. It was used during the war, these 10 hour sessions. So there's five two hour sessions.So we run those think we're running for one for job instruction and job relations post summit and also one for Toyota Kata. Where they go through most of the improvement kata, but some on the coaching kata also a 10 hour training so people could come out and get, you know, like a certification on they can go, you know, know how to go practice and those are really practice based kind of workshops, a 10 hour training.[00:21:14] Joe Krebs: And I think that's also important, right? Because it is about practicing scientific thinking. So the practice piece needs to come in. I think for what was pretty awesome in this episode, I want to thank you for that is your background and how you know, take us on this journey of how this all started, but also how deeply rooted it is in many things we do as humans in various different kinds of industries.And even though it's only a small piece of history of what we just covered. The 10 years of KataCon is significant. It's a huge accomplishment. I want to thank you for putting this out there and putting your energy into organize something like this as an a past conference organizer myself. I know how much work that is.[00:21:58] Jim Huntzinger: One of the thing I might touch on because this is also about practicing is we have these are outside of that. the summit. But we have a couple workshops, one called skill point, one called skills lab where you go practice, you go learn TWI and also Toyota Kata. But it's actually on a full scale simulator.So it's a life size line. Now, the reason I'm bringing that up is you learn these skills because these are about skills. you skill of the Toyota Kata, the skill of improvement, Kata skill of the coaching kata. Same thing with TWI, but it's always interesting when we run those workshops we used have people from different companies come in and literally by the end of day one, and certainly by the day two there, these three day workshops, you would think these people had worked together for 10 years.Even though for different industries, different companies, and that's not something we're directly trying to do. So the whole working together as a team and all that, that when you practice these things together, by default, you'll reap that benefit of people understanding each other, people working collaborative together.So it's been fascinating to watch those. Workshops and watch that just spontaneously happen that these people look, I said, they look like they've been working together for 10 years and just met less than 24 hours before. [00:23:12] Joe Krebs: Yeah, it's amazing. Great bonding, right? If you have a shared goal and you work as a team and you collaborate and you have the same language and can navigate.That's fantastic. Jim, I want to thank you. On the show page people will find a way of finding the conference for sure. They can also just Google KataCon and and get in touch and get their tickets and meet you in April in 2024 in Indianapolis. Thank you, Jim. [00:23:39] Jim Huntzinger: Yeah. Indianapolis.Thank you so much, Joe. Yeah. Looking forward to it and thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today.

In a more emotional turn, the X-Files tackles kidnapping and trauma. Complete with teleporting liquids, creepy dudes, intuition and 1 bullet kills, one thing is certain by the end of this episode: Scully's title of "doctor" has got to be printed at the local Kinko's.JOIN OUR SOCIALS!www.facebook.com/groups/thisisnothappeningpod/ @TINHXFilesPodCONTACT US!tinhxfp@gmail.com

Joining Teja on this week's episode is Ian Villa, COO and Co-founder of Whisper Aero, a company that is developing cleaner, quieter, and more efficient propulsion solutions. They discuss the pros and cons of a campus with on-site housing, the burgeoning Nashville tech scene, and how a 5 am trip to Kinko's can, in hindsight, be a lesson in entrepreneurship.whisper.aero Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Tim Conway dislikes marathon runners/ Joe's Pizza and Tim's countdown of people he allows to own a pizza oven // Mark's Sag-discount & Tim's Kinko's resume printing story // Cash Keyword: “Bank”//Audio of Tim Conway's lawsuit over $20 Million dollars via CBS // 25th anniversary for the Sopranos / Niecy Nash's Emmy Win for role in Netflix's Dahmer

Mothers understand each other. In this episode of the ALPS In Brief Podcast, Attorney Abigail Benjamin talks with ALPS Account Manager Meg Ratzburg and Underwriting Manager Leah Gooley about the hardships and triumphs of being both a mother and an attorney — and how legal culture shifts like ALPS' new Parental Leave coverage help to better accommodate women who want to bring their best to both worlds (and not have to leave law practice). — Transcript:  Leah Gooley: Well, hello and welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in downtown Missoula, Montana. I'm Leah Gooley and I'm the underwriting manager here at ALPS. And I'm here with Meg. Meg Ratzburg: Meg Ratzburg. I'm the account manager for the states of Georgia and West Virginia for our ALPS insured. Leah Gooley: And Meg is here, both of us are here to introduce Abigail Benjamin. She is an experienced West Virginia attorney and one of our insureds and is here to share an amazing story with us. So with that, we'd just like to turn it over to Abigail to tell us a little bit about your experience, starting with how you began in a solo practice of law. Abigail Benjamin: Yeah. Oh, okay. You guys just see me. This is kind of an eclectic story, so you just let me know if I'm going too much in the weeds, but I'm almost 50. This practice has been going on for seven years and I sort of did the traditional college law school graduate at 25, found what I thought was my dream job in public interest law, and then had two kids and I ran into that barrier, I think we're going to talk to later about being a female attorney with young kids. And I want to say it wasn't just a time crunch. It was wanting to show up for my family and my kids in a way that I wasn't just exhausted and overwhelmed. So I didn't get that support and I just chose my kids. And at age 40, I had made what I thought was a very happy life, not practicing law. I had six kids, ages 13 to 1. I was growing kale in my backyard. I was writing fiction, I was following politics and on the news, living in a corner of my home state of West Virginia, about 70 miles from DC and God bless anyone from dc but there's a lot of lawyers in DC and there's a lot of unhappy lawyers in DC. So I was very comfortable not practicing law. And The practice came out when I was 41 on a base of a very ethereal idea and some very good, wise people giving me thoughtful advice. And so the first start was in my faith tradition, Pope Francis is our head, and he really encouraged us Catholics to lean into this idea of environmental justice. And I had been a nonprofit lawyer. I was very keen to economic issues and worries about justice with the poor, but I hadn't really, really thought about economic justice issues and how that impacts both poor Appalachians and people of color around the United States. So I just had this thought, but again, raising kale, homeschooling six kids, I took a one-shot volunteer opportunity, limited, limited, and I volunteered at an environmental film festival called the American Conservation Film Festival. And I saw this film that just blew... It knocked my socks off. It just really opened up my eyes. It was about a water crisis event we had in West Virginia. It was the Elk River Crisis. And this was the interesting part about art and film. I definitely was somebody that was educated in the audience. I knew what my state's problems were. I read the news. But seeing this timeline, as a lawyer, I was just like, oh my gosh, this was not an inevitable catastrophe. What happened is we have these giant chemical plants storing chemicals, very dangerous stuff, right on the waters that we all drink from. And it was two rust holes the size of quarters that dumped all that toxic stuff and one half of my state's population lost their drinking water. And it wasn't the regular boil advisory where it was an inconvenience. You put the pot on the stove for 30 minutes and you have drinking water. You could not bathe in this water, you could not wash your clothes. The smell coming out of the taps was making people sick, skin rashes. And all of the environmental protocols were followed. They called the spill line, they did this stuff, but it was these local small businesses in Charleston. It was an ice cream shop, Ellen's Ice Cream, that was making their ice cream for the day. And this terrible smell came in and they were like, "This is not good." And they called the public health coordinator. And that's what started this looking at this environmental issue. So I was amazed at that film and the discussion around it and I was very interested as a lawyer that this catastrophe, people had known for about seven years that this firm was not following protocols. And they were calling in complaints, like nuisance and complaints about smells and spills, but they didn't file a lawsuit. I mean, it was just sort of stacking up and stacking up. And so, as somebody who was a lawyer, I was like, "Man, I wonder if encouraging lawyers to take these small cases and looking at environmental protection, not as, I mean God bless them, Sierra Club or these kind of large swaths, but that individual boots on the ground thing." That's what really got me excited. So I called up my property law professor who I had not talked to in 10 years, at the University of Wisconsin, and he's super cool, and let me know if I'm going on too long in the weeds. Leah Gooley: This is amazing. [inaudible 00:06:08]. Abigail Benjamin: He's actually South African. It's so weird. But he's South African. His name was Heinz Klug and he worked with Nelson Mandela. He helped to do the South African Constitution. And he actually ended up being my law professor now 20 years ago because his work against Apartheid was so dangerous there was a price on his head. So he had to come to America to save his life and ended up falling in love with an American girl who taught sociology law. And so he just found himself in Madison, Wisconsin and was my property law professor. So I called him and, again, just supposed to be a one-shot deal. I'm like, I have this amazing film about my home state of West Virginia, and I think it'll really jazz up the 1L's in your class, and I want to come share it. And we had this amazing meeting of the minds, and that's what happens with business, I think, it's this synchronicity. And he was like, "Abigail, I get you." He's like, "This is just in Africa." And honestly, I was kind of offended as an American. I was like, "No, no, no, no. I know West Virginia's weird, but we're 70 miles from Washington DC. You have your problems over in Africa, but it's not that bad over here." And he's like, "This systemic problem, the way that justice can fail to get implemented on the ground, this is systemic, this is worldwide, and I think you should come." And so again, retired lawyer for over 10 years, I had never been on an airplane. And he sent me an airplane ticket and a really nice hotel room to come to my law school to give this presentation. And I was really humbled because my friends who had stayed on that linear path, I mean they were partners at law firms in Milwaukee and Chicago. And here I was getting the red carpet rolled out to come back to my law and speak. And so the idea of my practice, it really came from my South African professor, a visiting law professor from India, and then one of the environmental law professors who just happened... They were a little younger than me, but grew up in Tennessee and really understood the thing that I was seeing. And so that kind of weekend conversation about this idea I had for a practice, and I initially didn't think I had the resources, the time or the money to start my own practice. So I was like, I need to fundraise. I have a great idea for a practice. And the idea for the practice was not somebody that came in from the top down like Sierra Club or Natural Resources, not that they're not doing great work, but in West Virginia, there's a very much stiff resistance against outsiders telling us what to do. Leah Gooley: Sure, sure. Yeah, that's common, I'm sure. Abigail Benjamin: There's real pushback against like, "What's this Clean Water Act?" And so I thought having a native child that's in the community, that is going to rotary meetings, and I do a lot of acting, so is on community theater. And when I go and do my presentations in court, which are some environmental, but quite honestly are a lot of basic property rights, I don't get dismissed as the outsider. I'm really representing how these harms are hurting us as a community. And so I thought I had six kids, that disqualified me. I was trying to find a new grad and I was like, "Hey, I think you could do this for $60,000. I'll fundraise. I'll call my friends and we'll put this together." And God bless that person from Tennessee because he kept saying, "This sounds like a you project. I don't have a student at 25 I can just fling into this Appalachia to try to make a change. This sounds like a you project." And I'm like, "Well," I'm like, "I'm too busy. I've got these six kids." And so just that idea of not "I can't," but shifting a question to "Could I do that?" And I'm really lucky. My husband was really supportive, my kids were supportive. I had a group of community people that I was working with on the heroin issue, because Appalachia, we got a lot of stuff wrong, but one of the things was the opiate epidemic. And they really just held my hand through that nervousness phase of I'm going to sit down and retake the bar exam in West Virginia for the first time at 41, and I'm going to show up. And I ended up taking the bar exam in a hotel that overlooked that river, that inspired me to do the thing. And so within a couple of days after I passed the bar exam, I had an opportunity because there's not a lot of pro bono lawyers out here floating around in West Virginia. So I got a call from an environmental group to join an action against a state gas company that was doing a monopoly. They were trying to build a natural gas line over geography that we thought was unsafe. And I just went in to do a speech in front of a group of people, and one guy just literally took off his hat and passed it around, and they threw in $800, enough money for me, because I didn't need money for me, but I had to pay the court reporter. And so we got a deposition from a really good scientist about damage to the Potomac River, which is the drinking water for not just us in West Virginia, but for all those poor people in DC. Leah Gooley: Talk about grassroots. That's amazing. Meg Ratzburg: It's like they needed you and you needed them. I love that. Abigail Benjamin: Thing, Well, again, I jumped into this lawsuit. I was number 17. I was the 17th lawyer in this lawsuit, the only one who was living in the area. Everybody else was down south in Charleston. And the only one representing what I feel is the people. And I was so poor I didn't have a working printer. So I went to Kinko's and they were my law office, and I would print out the 19 copies I needed and stapled it and sent it off, but it ended up working and we got an environmental concession and I got to get on TV. And so just that type of feedback, I think of having an idea, having really solid people encouraging you to go to that untraditional idea and then having that success. Anyway, that's how I got started. Leah Gooley: That is an amazing story. Meg Ratzburg: I love that. Abigail Benjamin: It's very weird. Yes, it's very- Leah Gooley: Not focused. Meg Ratzburg: I love it. Leah Gooley: The fact that you provided a local solution from a local person with community support, as Meg noted, in a non-linear [inaudible 00:13:20]. Abigail Benjamin: And supported by that international perspective. I mean, who would've thought about that? But that's the beauty of it. Meg Ratzburg: It was universal, yeah. Abigail Benjamin: I think, lawyers, the analysis we can carry to something, we can be from very different backgrounds, but we can be working on the same solutions. And that's just so exciting to me. Leah Gooley: And not for a shameless plug for ALPS, but our focus is solos and small firms, and that's the value that those solo firms you can provide in that capacity with this organic idea that you put together. And that's really, we're very proud to be able to support attorneys in that position with the pieces that we have, the risk management, the affordable policies. That's really awesome to see that, especially in your local community. That's so exciting. Abigail Benjamin: Yeah, yeah. And I would just say the importance of my work with environmentalism is it's really important to be a solo because I would be conflicted out of all of these interesting cases if I was in a larger firm. And also just for me, personally, trying to balance having kids and having a practice, I'm the boss, so I don't need to ask permission to move back a meeting to take care of my kids. That's just built into the practice that I have. Again, we'll talk about how ALPS is really special to this story, but it's nice to have those big firm tools and expertise, but still preserving for me the passion and the interest that really drives me to be a good lawyer. Leah Gooley: That brought you out of retirement. Abigail Benjamin: Yes, yes, yes. Leah Gooley: Well then this feels like an excellent time to talk about your experience as a female attorney and more specifically your experience as a mom and that piece of the story. Abigail Benjamin: Again, I had started this dream of a practice thinking basically that my having kids was finished. And about 10 months after I had started going back all jazzed up about environmental issues, my husband decided to take a job as an academic. He's an art professor, and so it was really great for him to switch out of being a long distance commuter to DC and teach, his love, but he lost half of his income. And so suddenly this project that for me was just sort of, oh, interesting, volunteering and pro bono, I suddenly had to literally get the grocery money for the kids. And so I transitioned. Thank goodness ALP started me on that little first flights program. And then I moved in organically. And then two weeks after I signed my commercial lease to move back to my hometown and open up a more standard solo practice, I found out that I was surprisingly pregnant with my seventh child. And it was really awesome, but it was really scary because suddenly I had this commercial lease and I had run into trouble earlier in my career balancing, I felt like, kids and law. And now suddenly I was by myself and having to do that. And, Luke, who's awesome, but I had a high-risk medical pregnancy with him. And I ended up on bedrest in a hospital, really trying to run my law practice, brand new law practice, with a locked file cabinet in my hospital room and some phones. And I was able to do it, but I didn't have that sizable kind of war chest, that backup. Again, just like daily bills I was paying, but I didn't have enough to pay my ALPS insurance premium. And so that was so beautiful. Luke was born and he was premature, and he and I were here but still shaken up by the experience. And I reached out to Meg and I just told her my situation and I said I was a new mom and I had this premature baby and that I wasn't going to be able to meet that deadline. And she reached back out to me and said, and this was the line that was like... She said, "I remember those days. I remember those days and I'm going to look..." And she worked out the payment plan for me. But getting that affirmation, I think, from the corporate identity of a malpractice insurance, having them have that caring central thing about caring for me as a person and willing to bet that this was just a temporary hiccup for me and I was going to be a great client moving forward. It just meant the world to me. And I actually, I don't know if I shared this with you, Meg, but I used the confidence from our exchange to go talk to a local banker who was also a woman in my town, and I got a better line of credit. So it really affirmed to me that the practice of law was valuable for me as a young mother, and it was okay to ask for accommodation so that I could stay mentally healthy, be there for my kid, and also serve my clients. It was a fragile time for me, and I really just appreciated that vote of confidence. Leah Gooley: That's so awesome. Meg Ratzburg: I love that. That just touches my heart. Even when you sent me the email I cried through the whole office. I'm kind of a crier. Abigail Benjamin: So the backstory is I sent a thank you note to Meg when my little son, Luke, who was the premature baby five years ago, when he celebrated his fifth birthday, and he's super healthy and happy, and I was just like, "Thank you, because I have this healthy baby, but I also have a healthy law practice and thanks for not making me have to choose one or the other." Meg Ratzburg: I love that. Women and mothers understand each other and can support each other. I love that. Leah Gooley: Everybody take a minute. In the backdrop of law that you mentioned earlier where that can just be a conflict, trying to show up for your kids and your family in a real way as you also balance some pretty heavy expectations in the larger law firm space can be so overwhelming, especially to women who have the mantra of doing it all and some of that context that it's hard to mentally work your way through. Clearly you said, "Well, at some point I'm not going to do that. I'm going to step away." And that's not what the law profession needs. And we see that in that women are a majority now of law school students, but after five years start to drop out of the professions for a lot of the same reasons that you've talked... So very interested to hear more about your thoughts on what some of those challenges are for women in law and where we or the law community might be able to meet some of those challenges. Abigail Benjamin: I'm so glad you asked that question because this was exactly my story. I had gone from a really small town in West Virginia, 5,000. I went to a women's college, Smith College out of Massachusetts, and I went to a really good public interest law group in University of Wisconsin. And I had gotten the plum job. I worked as legal service attorney. I worked with a lot of women, and everything seemed to really fall into place, from being 25 to 29 for four and a half years. But when I got pregnant with my second child, I felt exhausted. And one of the things that makes me upset is we, as attorneys, we are expert at managing expectations and delivering conflicting things. We're experts at crisis management. I mean, at least my practice, but I think a lot of other people, it kind of feels like an ER doctor. You plan to work on one thing and a client called and they have an emergency, and so you're going to shuffle your day around. And those are exactly the skills that you need for balance in terms of having a lot of kids or just having a creative life. I mean, I got to do Wizard of Oz this summer with my kids, and let me tell you, those two weeks that we were in tech rehearsal, not a lot of law was getting done. But those kind of shifts, that's really normal as a lawyer. And when I look back, I'm upset at myself at 30 because I felt inferior, that my child needing me or being pregnant or asking Meg for an extension because I had a premature baby and had been working for three months, that's life. And that's a healthy, well-rounded life. And it's just amazing that right now in my stage of life, I had a mom that died of cancer after two years of treatment, and my elderly dad needs some help. And it's weird, judges and other lawyers are so much more calm about giving me elder law care, flexibility, than they were about me giving birth and having kids. And I don't know how much is my uncomfortability asking for that, but once I started as a solo, I really had this idea that my husband and my kids were my first eight clients and they got the top eight slots of my day. But that also means I can handle about 30, so there's a whole bunch of work that I can do for the community, and occasionally somebody has a deposition or I've got a hearing, those clients bump up and they trump my five-year-old. But most of the time my family gets the top billing and I'm really comfortable handling the rest of the time. And so the issue then, honestly, right now at 50 isn't so much balancing my being a mom versus being an attorney. It's really making sure that I'm being healthy for me, because I tend not to put myself in the mix. So trying to be healthy and sustainable, keeping up my exercise program, eating right, those kinds of things, I struggle with much more than telling a client to pause for a minute while I talk to my kids. And I would also say, when I was growing up, I thought having kids meant you had a career disruption, very small, when they were little, like zero to three. But my teenagers, I swear, need me way more than my five-year-old. And it's like the teenager is fine until my 20-year-old's in college, and then suddenly I'm at the door for work and you've got to stop and take that moment and connect with them. But that's where being a solo or a small firm is perfect because it's very, very rare that I have to be in my law office at 9:00 in the morning. I can take those moments to connect with them when they're ready. And I still feel like a great lawyer if I've spent 30 minutes with my teen and show up at 9:30 instead of 9:00, and so- Meg Ratzburg: You're probably a better lawyer, because you're taking care of what you need- Abigail Benjamin: Exactly. Meg Ratzburg: ... so you're present for your client because your life's taken care of. Leah Gooley: Yeah yeah. Meg Ratzburg: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Leah Gooley: Abigail- Abigail Benjamin: So I would say... Oh, go ahead. Leah Gooley: Oh, just asking what advice would you give to a 25-year-old, 30-year-old attorney in that position, male or female, facing the crux of kids versus work? What advice would you give them? Abigail Benjamin: I would say try your best not to see it as kids versus work, but what makes you a healthy human being and how can you practice law in a way that's healthy? I made the mistake of, I had female role models when I was 25 just starting off in law, and they were awesome attorneys. Their lives with their families did not look anything like how I wanted to be. I had really amazing managing attorneys, but they either had the swap where the husband was the kind of 1950s spouse that did everything, and they were in the office for 80 to 100 hours a week, or they outsourced. The nanny came and picked the kid up in the morning at 5:00 AM and then had them until 7:00 and fed them every meal and stuff. And not that that's bad, but the idea of a lawyer sitting in the office for 100 hours a week, and I would say 85-plus was very normal for me in an 85-person public-interest law job. I don't think that makes for healthy people. That's unsustainable, I think, when you have a tiny newborn that's waking you up. But I wasn't living a healthy life when I was newly married, but it didn't hit me as bad as when I had this little one-year-old who, even when I saw them, I was so obsessed with worrying about my cases and how tired I was from this stuff. So male or woman, just really try to find lawyers that are healthy, that are energetic, that are doing awesome in the courtroom, but you want to, A, have time to take you out for a beer or a coffee, and then are interesting to talk to over a beer or a coffee. It's more than just can you practice law well in the courtroom? That's what I feel like. So it's finding a sustainable practice. Leah Gooley: That is such great advice. And so, for the current atmosphere, right in the profession, being able to talk to attorneys in general to say, be a whole person, have a well-rounded life. Meg Ratzburg: A whole person. Leah Gooley: The attorney wellness right now is a moderate crisis. People are in a tough spot. And so being able to have that message to folks is so important right now, reinforced from folks within the community, people who have made those difficult journeys. Yours is so inspiring in that way. The weaving and being able to be back into a position where you're providing value, you're providing value to your family and yourself, and you're- Abigail Benjamin: And everything's Meaningful. And Meg was saying the time with my kids and my teens, that's making me a better attorney because I'm a more fully engaged human. Yeah. Leah Gooley: Yep. Abigail Benjamin: Yeah. Leah Gooley: Beautiful. That's so great. Let's see. Those are the questions in general we had wanted to wrestle with. Is there anything else that you wanted to add just in your experience in this, again, really inspiring journey to attorneys now or just in general to the community? Abigail Benjamin: Well, I just want to give a shout-out. My bar association has free Zoom meeting. It's for mental wellness. It's really about health and it's run by a therapist. I was initially kind of nervous to join, but it has been amazing. And one of the nicest thing is we have a judge on there, which was kind of very nervous. You're not used to seeing the guys in the robe as you're like, "Yeah, I'm struggling with my teen today," or whatever. But it was really humanizing to see people of different ages, different backgrounds, vastly different sections of law. I mean, I think I'm a little guilty of really talking mostly to other attorneys that are in my same skillset, but it's so amazing to see people struggling with this idea of how can I practice law, do good to my clients, but also in a way that's sustainable, that's healthy for me? And I would say 90% of all lawyers that I practice with, and COVID has really helped. I think we're pretty human. We're in a small state. I think people are pretty gracious about giving extensions or helping a client really find a good fit between... I might have somebody that has a case, but I'm not the right lawyer for them, so I'm going to reach out and find a referral to them, kind of that humanness. But I would say there is 10% that is kind of jerks and that has that sort of adverse priority relationship even when we're not in court. But this wellness group has helped me have confidence where I'm like, "Dude, you're just not on my team." I'm going to keep my armor up in the velvet glove and the professionalism. But it's allowed me, I think, to feel more confident, again, as that human being. The other thing I would say, again, just call-out to ALPS. It's amazing as a solo to put a team together. So even though I'm alone, I have Meg and ALPS. And ALPS is great because, for me, I have ADHD, ALPS is like, "Get your records together, girl." I mean, there's these firm, always write the engagement letter, always say when you're off the case. And these kind of, it's almost like a managing attorney role, so that helps me. My interest is obviously talking to people and solving the law. It's not necessarily administration, but ALPS is that person that's helping me make sure that I hit the things I need to do to stay protected and it gives me confidence. Leah Gooley: Awesome to hear that. Abigail Benjamin: And I have a team. I have financial advisors, really helpful with therapists. I have a lot of friends that are therapists because a lot of what we're doing in law, it's very emotional. I might know what to do, but trying to handle those clients that are... I mean, they come in with property law issues and I mean, they're crying. I mean, it can be really traumatic. And so that's what I like. I might be alone, but I have a team of people that I can look to for my clients, but also I can look to for myself. And I'm always interested in learning how to do things better. The one thing I would say for attorneys that I think I found because I took this little detour, I think it's very, very important to stay intellectually curious and not just go to CLEs, but watch PBS documentaries and go to theater plays and act. My husband and I right now, we're taking an adult tap class on Wednesday nights, and our kids are dancers and we suck. I mean, we are like [inaudible 00:32:54]. But we're out there learning the shuffle step and doing our little things. And I mean, it is so healthy. I'm almost 49, he's 51. It is so healthy to be in something that is not your skill level. And I think attorneys, we're interested, curious bunches, and it's sad if we get burnt out or tired or always having to be the leader, the one with the answer. Again, I think mental health is important. Exercise, diet is important, but keeping that curious, playful kid, the person you were before you sat through contracts law as a 1L, keep that person alive because that's really who people respond to. And then I think they trust me in my community to have answers for complex things because they see me as a human being and I'm out in the community, so that's my- Leah Gooley: Awesome. Abigail Benjamin: [inaudible 00:33:59]. Meg Ratzburg: Great. Leah Gooley: Well, to wrap things up, we have a couple of lightning round type questions, if you're game. Abigail Benjamin: Okay. Leah Gooley: Are you a dog or a cat person? Abigail Benjamin: Cats. I'm a cat person. Yes. Leah Gooley: A cat person. And what are you reading right now? Abigail Benjamin: Oh gosh, so much. Actually, with all my different interests, we have a family bookstore that's kind of like our family farm, but this is a West Virginia, I swear I didn't know this question was coming. This is just on my... I use books like I use law. I have my other stuff too. But Pearl S. Buck is a West Virginian who actually wrote very sympathetically about the Chinese, and The Exile is actually a portrait about her mother. I lost my mom. My mom died after a two-year battle with cancer in January. And it's been really helpful not just to take time off my practice to go to grief group. That's good, too. But it's been really helpful for me to read a lot of books where people are reflecting about their mom. I feel a lot more connected just hearing about other people's stories. Leah Gooley: That's beautiful. Thank you. Abigail Benjamin: Thanks. Leah Gooley: Last question. Do you see any of your seven kids going to law school? Abigail Benjamin: Here's the thing. My husband is a digital artist and art professor. And so they really had no... I mean, Mom's job was boring compared to Dad's job of making animation and stuff. But my 16-year-old has just really fallen in love with history, and it was like the first time she told me she had opinions about President Andrew Jackson. I was like, "What?" Leah Gooley: What you doing, girl? Abigail Benjamin: Yeah, yeah. And her... they're all ballet dancers. It turns out that one of her good friends is really excited to become a criminal defense attorney, AKA Perry Mason. So that has been adorable. So she secretly, I think after I joke that her ballet career, either when she's 40 and she retires from ballet or she gets injured, she's in line now to take over my firm, so that was okay. Leah Gooley: Succession planing, starting early. Okay. Abigail Benjamin: [inaudible 00:36:27]. I love it. Leah Gooley: Well, I couldn't be more grateful for your time with us today- Abigail Benjamin: Oh, thank you. Leah Gooley: ... for sharing your stories and such great advice. Wonderful to talk with you today. Just a huge thank you to you. Meg Ratzburg: Yeah, such a delight, Abigail. Abigail Benjamin: Oh, thank you. Meg Ratzburg: Thank you. Thank you very much. And good luck to everyone out there. Leah Gooley: Great, thank you. I'll just say to our listeners, just if you have any questions for ALPS, if you're insured with us, please reach out to your account manager, like Meg. Meg Ratzburg: West Virginia or Georgia. Leah Gooley: Absolutely. I'm happy to answer any questions. As Abigail had mentioned, there are some serious risk management, How to Run a Solo Practice resources on our website. It's alpsinsurance.com. There's some great blog posts, videos, articles written by our claims attorneys who are on staff to handle claims that come in from our insureds. So really great resources. If you have any questions or want to know more, please check that out at alpsinsurance.com. Thank you again from beautiful, cold Missoula, and we will see you next time. Meg Ratzburg: Thanks. Thanks, Abigail. Leah Gooley: Thanks, Abigail. Abigail Benjamin: Thank you, guys. Bye-bye. Leah Gooley: Bye.  

A mediados de la década de los 80 el sello Rhino Records lanzó dos volúmenes de una colección llamada “The world worst records”. Se inspiraron en un disco del mismo nombre que en 1978 lanzó una emisora británica. Este primer álbum compilaba algunas de las peores canciones que el locutor Kenny Everett había pinchado en su programa “The World's Worst Wireless Show”. Los discos de Rhino subieron la apuesta con una selección de canciones desafinadas, versiones infames, piezas de temáticas irreverentes, historias de mal gusto y sonidos cacharreros. Malas canciones con un encanto especial y que validan esa máxima que reza... “la basura de unos es el tesoro de otros”. Playlist; (sintonía) THE TEMPLE CITY KAZOO ORCHESTRA “Kazooed on classics” THE SEVEN STOOGES “I wanna be your dog” HEATHEN DAN “I like” ROCKIN’ RICHIE RAY “Baseball card lover” EDITH MASSEY “Big girls don’t cry” BARNES and BARNES “Boogie Woogie amputee” BARNES and BARNES “Party in my pants” MRS MILLER “Downtown” ADOLPH BABEL “My feet start tappin” STEVE BENT “Going to Spain” OGDEN EDSL “Kinko the clown” THE NOVAS “The crusher” THE LEGENDARY STARDUST COWBOY “Paralyzed” THE CREDIBILITY GAP “Foreign novelty smash” BOB and ZIP “Just a big ego” WILD MAN FISCHER “Young at heart” LITTLE ROGER and THE GOOSEBUMPS “Fudd on the hill” GLORIA BALSAM “Fluffy” Escuchar audio

Jeremy Shepherd is a leader, innovator, and a disruptor. From an early age, he struck out on his own to satisfy his fierce independence, need for adventure, and a more satisfying way of life.In a sector dominated by generations-old family businesses, Jeremy endeavored to become a first generation, self-taught pearl importer, dealer, and Internet seller.Over the past 20 years, he has traveled to pearl-producing areas all over the world, creating relationships with pearl producers, exporters, and people dedicated to supporting the pearl industry.In This Conversation We Discuss:[00:45] Intro[01:23] Discovering a business idea that's fit to your job[03:31] Learning the highs and lows of the pearl industry[04:18] Creating effective platforms from the get-go[05:21] Utilizing resources to move things forward[06:27] Maintaining things at satisfying levels[07:56] Doing auctions to reach more people[08:55] Putting up a website in the year 2000[11:47] Shifting from auctions to Ecommerce[12:20] Keeping up with the technology and the times[13:29] PR articles gives businesses exposure[14:44] Creating educational websites for target audiences[16:22] Fixing issues quickly to not hinder incoming sales[17:21] Clearing things up with credit card processors[18:08] Episode sponsors[21:34] Remaining fully involved in your business[23:37] How business is built on relationships[24:49] Bringing immeasurably valuable pearls to customers[26:02] It all comes down to the way pearls are sourced[27:21] Integrating different marketing efforts to succeed[28:01] Adjusting business operations due to the pandemic[30:11] Using virtual platforms to connect with customers[31:44] Enhancing online meetings to mimic f2f experience[32:39] The biggest business secret: Help A Reporter[34:14] Practice your elevator pitch to make it to the list[35:00] Backlinks are the backbone of SEO[35:33] Where to reach Pearl ParadiseResources:Subscribe to Honest Ecommerce on YoutubeOne of the largest pearl brands in the world pearlparadise.com/Follow Jeremy Shepherd linkedin.com/in/jeremypshepherd/Schedule an intro call with one of our experts electriceye.io/connectTake your retail business to the next level today shopify.com/honestSign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial periodSchedule your free consultation with a Sendlane expert sendlane.com/honestIf you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you left Honest Ecommerce a review on Apple Podcasts. It makes a huge impact on the success of the podcast, and we love reading every one of your reviews!

Bryan Chaffin is back to decision his decision to self-publish his upcoming novel. He shares the tasks he's been working on, from creating a cover to formatting e-books for different platforms. We talk about distribution options, express concerns about author compensation in Spotify's audiobook library, and emphasize the importance of libraries in supporting authors. Bryan plans to record an audiobook himself to bring a unique voice to the story. He also discusses his active participation on threads as both himself and his main character.  Today's MacVoices is supported by MacVoices Featured Gear. Get more done with your tech, like the OWC Thunderbolt Hub. No matter which Mac you have, you can always use more connectivity, and the OWC Thunderbolt Hub delivers. Get the details and link at MacVoices.com/FeaturedGear. Show Notes: Chapters: 0:00:00 Bryan Chaffin returns to discuss his novel publishing journey.0:01:45 Preparing for Publication: Formatting and Platforms0:02:34 The Importance of Participating in the Twitter Community0:04:44 Concerns about Amazon's Impact on Publishing Industry0:05:03 Dominating the Market with Three Platforms0:05:22 Modernized Library Distribution System and Convenience0:06:42 The decision to narrate the book yourself0:08:47 The complexities of self-publishing and audio book production0:13:06 Fiverr: Professional Services for Higher Quality Work0:14:41 Custom Chapter Ornaments: A Throwback to Chapter Identification0:15:28 Customizing book ornaments and seam separators0:20:42 Spotify entering the audiobook business and author compensation concerns0:25:57 Dell and Amazon's Race to the Bottom Links: MasonTrumanPI on Threads Guests: Bryan Chaffin began using Apple computers in 1983 in a high school BASIC programming class. He started using Macs in 1990 when the Kinko's guy taught him how to use Aldus PageMaker, finally buying a Power Computing Power 100 in 1995. Bryan is the cofounder of The Mac Observer. He has contributed to MacAddict and MacFormat magazines, and coauthored Incredible iPad Apps for Dummies with Bob “Dr. Mac” LeVitus. You can find out more about Bryan at his personal site, GeekTells, hear his thoughts on Apple and tech topics on The Context Machine and follow him on Threads as @GeekTells.  Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon     http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:     http://macvoices.com      Twitter:     http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner     http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:     https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:     http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:     https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:     https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes     Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss

Bryan Chaffin is back to decision his decision to self-publish his upcoming novel. He shares the tasks he's been working on, from creating a cover to formatting e-books for different platforms. We talk about distribution options, express concerns about author compensation in Spotify's audiobook library, and emphasize the importance of libraries in supporting authors. Bryan plans to record an audiobook himself to bring a unique voice to the story. He also discusses his active participation on threads as both himself and his main character.  Today's MacVoices is supported by MacVoices Featured Gear. Get more done with your tech, like the OWC Thunderbolt Hub. No matter which Mac you have, you can always use more connectivity, and the OWC Thunderbolt Hub delivers. Get the details and link at MacVoices.com/FeaturedGear. Show Notes: Chapters: 0:00:00 Brian Chaffin returns to discuss his novel publishing journey. 0:01:45 Preparing for Publication: Formatting and Platforms 0:02:34 The Importance of Participating in the Twitter Community 0:04:44 Concerns about Amazon's Impact on Publishing Industry 0:05:03 Dominating the Market with Three Platforms 0:05:22 Modernized Library Distribution System and Convenience 0:06:42 The decision to narrate the book yourself 0:08:47 The complexities of self-publishing and audio book production 0:13:06 Fiverr: Professional Services for Higher Quality Work 0:14:41 Custom Chapter Ornaments: A Throwback to Chapter Identification 0:15:28 Customizing book ornaments and seam separators 0:20:42 Spotify entering the audiobook business and author compensation concerns 0:25:57 Dell and Amazon's Race to the Bottom Links: MasonTrumanPI on Threads Guests: Bryan Chaffin began using Apple computers in 1983 in a high school BASIC programming class. He started using Macs in 1990 when the Kinko's guy taught him how to use Aldus PageMaker, finally buying a Power Computing Power 100 in 1995. Bryan is the cofounder of The Mac Observer. He has contributed to MacAddict and MacFormat magazines, and coauthored Incredible iPad Apps for Dummies with Bob “Dr. Mac” LeVitus. You can find out more about Bryan at his personal site, GeekTells, hear his thoughts on Apple and tech topics on The Context Machine and follow him on Threads as @GeekTells.  Support:      Become a MacVoices Patron on Patreon      http://patreon.com/macvoices      Enjoy this episode? Make a one-time donation with PayPal Connect:      Web:      http://macvoices.com      Twitter:      http://www.twitter.com/chuckjoiner      http://www.twitter.com/macvoices      Mastodon:      https://mastodon.cloud/@chuckjoiner      Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/chuck.joiner      MacVoices Page on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/macvoices/      MacVoices Group on Facebook:      http://www.facebook.com/groups/macvoice      LinkedIn:      https://www.linkedin.com/in/chuckjoiner/      Instagram:      https://www.instagram.com/chuckjoiner/ Subscribe:      Audio in iTunes      Video in iTunes      Subscribe manually via iTunes or any podcatcher:      Audio: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesrss      Video: http://www.macvoices.com/rss/macvoicesvideorss 00:00:00 Brian Chaffin returns to discuss his novel publishing journey. 00:00:10 Introducing MacVoices Featured Gear 00:01:44 Preparing for Publication: Formatting and Platforms 00:02:33 The Importance of Participating in the Twitter Community 00:04:44 Concerns about Amazon's Impact on Publishing Industry 00:05:02 Dominating the Market with Three Platforms 00:05:21 Modernized Library Distribution System and Convenience 00:06:41 The decision to narrate the book yourself 00:08:46 The complexities of self-publishing and audio book production 00:13:06 Fiverr: Professional Services for Higher Quality Work 00:14:40 Custom Chapter Ornaments: A Throwback to Chapter Identification 00:15:28 Customizing book ornaments and seam separators 00:20:41 Spotify entering the audiobook business and author compensation concerns 00:25:57 Dell and Amazon's Race to the Bottom

Welcome to another enlightening episode of "The Founder Hour.” Today, we have the distinct honor of hosting an entrepreneurial luminary whose journey has left an indelible mark on the business world.Our guest, Paul Orfalea, isn't just any entrepreneur; he's the brilliant mind behind Kinko's, a company that redefined the business services landscape. Paul founded Kinko's in 1970 with a simple idea and a $5,000 loan. What began as a small copy shop in Isla Vista, California, grew into a global phenomenon with over 1,000 locations worldwide before being acquired by FedEx for $2.4 billion in 2004.Throughout our conversation, we'll delve into the fascinating details of Paul's incredible journey. From his early days printing term papers for college students to navigating the challenges of scaling a business, Paul's insights are invaluable. He's not only a successful businessman but also a college professor and a passionate advocate for education and philanthropy, founding the Orfalea Foundation to support children and families in need.*The Founder Hour is brought to you by Outer. Outer makes the world's most beautiful, comfortable, innovative, and high-quality outdoor furniture - ALL from sustainable materials - and is the ONLY outdoor furniture with a patented built-in cover to make protecting it effortless. From teak chairs to fire pit tables, everything Outer makes has the look and feel of what you'd expect at a 5-star resort, for less than you'd pay at a big box store for something that won't last.For a limited time, get 10% off and FREE shipping at www.liveouter.com/thefounderhour. Terms and conditions apply.*The biggest fortunes aren't made on Wall Street. They're made way before startups hit the stock market. Consider Mike Walsh, a name just like any of ours who invested $5,000 into Uber. And that investment money? It grew to a staggering $24,827,400!Such opportunities were once behind closed doors. Reserved for those with connections or vast fortunes. But that's no more.StartEngine is tearing down those exclusivity walls and making startup investments accessible to you and me...With Howard Marks, co-founder of the gaming giant Activision at the helm, StartEngine and its 1.7 million users have fueled startups with over $1.1 billion. This is no longer just an investment platform, but an investing revolution.And it gets better. They're inviting you to be a part of their journey. With just $500, you can join their live fundraising round and own shares of this revolutionary company.Visit https://www.startengine.com/offering/startengine5 and jump on board before their investment round wraps up.Disclosures:17b disclosureThis Reg A+ offering is made available through StarEngine Crowdfunding Inc. No broker-dealer or intermediary involved in offering. This investment is speculative, illiquid, and involves a high degree of risk, including the possible loss of your entire investment. For more information, please see the most recent Supplements, Offering Circular, and Risks Related to this Offering. The information provided in this marketing material is for illustrative purposes only and should not be considered as financial advice. Past performance, including the success of certain individuals, is not indicative of future results. Investing in any market, including startups, involves risks, and there is no guarantee that similar opportunities will yield comparable returns. Number of Users is determined by counting user profiles with unique email addresses which are active and have been confirmed. Includes funds raised via Reg CF and Reg A+ combines through StartEngine's funding portal and broker-dealer, as well as StartEngine's OWN raise.

To increase the value of your business, consider this: If your business burns down, you don't want that to happen, right? But if your business burns down and you've got whatever, desks and furniture and things like that, that stuff's all insured. You should be able to come back from that okay. But if your book of business burns down, right? If you still have all this overhead, but you don't have that book of business anymore, you are really in trouble. Because if you've got desks and you've got furniture, and you've got technology and everything, and you don't have the ability to sell to the people that you need to sell to, at that point, what's that really worth? All of that becomes overhead. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co-host Jay McFarland, and I will be discussing building the value of your business. Welcome back Jay. Jay: Hey, I'm so glad to be here, David. And once again, you hit me with another term where I'm like, do I really know what the value of my business is? And value has such a different meaning for so many, right? Value could be. Well, it gives me free time. I hate my business, but it gives me free time. So it's of great value. Or it's of great value because I have all these shiny toys, you know, those types of things. So I think value could be very different for different people. David: Yeah, it absolutely can. Particularly when we're thinking about business owners versus salespeople. I mean, when I was thinking about the topic, the value of your business, meaning what would it be worth to someone else if they wanted to buy it from you? And what that means for a business owner is what someone would actually pay for the business. What it means for a salesperson is what is your book of business worth? If you're building something up and somebody wanted to buy your book of business, what would that be worth? That's what I was thinking of in terms of value, but you touched on a lot of other great points regarding the term. Jay: Yeah, like I said, there's so many other things. And I've talked to people who have said, yeah, I'm thinking about selling my business. And I ask them, well, what's it worth? And they look at me like I have no idea whatsoever. In fact, I was working for Kinko's way back when, when they wanted to sell. And they wanted to go public first, and the SEC came in and said, you don't know what you own. You don't know what you owe. You don't know anything about your business. You have the worst paperwork system we've ever seen in our lives. You're not going public. And so they went and found a private buyer, which was FedEx, who went and bought FedEx Kinko's. So just in how you manage your business can affect the value of that business. David: Yeah, absolutely. And for a lot of people, the value of their business isn't going to be FedEx Kinko's worthy, very likely. Jay: Yeah. David: But still, it's good to know. And, for some it might be worth more than that. But for most people, particularly small to medium sized businesses, when they're looking to sell, they really don't have any idea of what the business is worth or what it could be worth to someone else. And in different industries, there are different metrics and multipliers that people use. They say, okay, well, we're going to take a multiple of your net value. In other words, what is, bottom line, after owner's compensation and things like that. They have a number of different metrics that people use. But in a lot of cases, that's what it boils down to. What's it likely to be worth to someone else? And Glen Holt, who was a professional in the promotional products industry for a long time, one of my mentors in the early days, I remember he was talking about that when people are looking to buy a business, really what they're paying for is the likelihood of future business. Because the only way I'm going to want to spend a dime on a business is if I know it...

Kinko's copy shops were once so ubiquitous that the name became a kind of shorthand for photocopying. Paul Orfalea started the first shop in 1970 in a tiny converted hamburger stand near UC Santa Barbara, called it Kinko's after his childhood nickname, and eventually grew it into a sprawling global chain. Rather than relying on a franchise model, Paul partnered with co-owners, which often made it hard to keep the business on track. Far-flung owners couldn't agree about the basics of logo design or the complexities of keeping stores open 24 hours. In 2004, Kinko's was acquired for $2.4 billion by FedEx, which eventually shed the name and transformed the shops into today's FedEx Office locations.This episode was produced by Chis Maccini and edited by Neva Grant, with music by Ramtin Arablouei. Our audio engineer was James Willetts. You can follow HIBT on Twitter & Instagram, and email us at hibt@id.wondery.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

As we continue with Cursed Child we're getting all up in the weeds of double-back time-travel and facing the important questions. Questions like: “is the Scorpius/Snape scene in fact wonderful or terrible?”, “does Kinko's still exist?”, and “didn't this happen in the Lion King?”. Plus, Kevin misunderstands the Cedric dog transfiguration, a lot of Good Place references, and Flaming Hot Cheetos. Support the showSupport FFH on Patreon: patreon.com/thefoxandthefoxhoundFollow us!IG: @thefoxandthefoxhoundTikTok: @thefoxandthefoxhound

Full Court Press: Liz Cambage Drama, WNBA Update, and Steph Curry Sings with Paramore  3-on-3: Adam's Three Best & Three Favorite Basketball Movies  That Actually Happened: A Deep Dive On Michael Jordan: Chaos In The Windy City Video Game  And Also: “Toronno”, Cooqbooq, Notes App Apologies, Kinko's, CandACE Parker, Carson Daly, Lionel Messi, Immaculate Grids, SNES, Roster Guard #99, Jichael Mordan, Polygons, Temple Guards, Dr. Dunk, Basketball Snakes   Sponsor: Tab for a Cause: Raise money for charity every time you open a new browser tab. Visit www.tabforacause.org/horse to start raising money today. Perfect for tab monsters like Adam!    Find Us Online - website: horsehoops.com - patreon: patreon.com/horsehoops - twitter: twitter.com/horse_hoops - instagram: instagram.com/horsehoops - facebook: facebook.com/horsehoops   HORSE is hosted by Mike Schubert and Adam Mamawala. Edited by Kensei Tsurumaki. Theme song by Bettina Campomanes. Art by Allyson Wakeman. Website by Kelly Schubert.   About Us On HORSE, we don't analyze wins and losses. We talk beefs (beeves?), dig into Internet drama, and have fun. The NBA is now a 365-day league and it's never been more present in pop culture. From Kevin Durant's burner accounts to LeBron taking his talents anywhere to trusting the Process, the NBA is becoming a pop culture requirement. At the same time, sports can have gatekeepers that make it insular and frustrating for people who aren't die hard fans. We're here to prove that basketball is entertaining to follow for all fans, whether you're actively watching the games or not. Recently featured in The New York Times!

It's Halfway to Halloween with Holly and Bridget as they dive into The Girls Next Door Season 1 Episode 10 Ghostbusted! They are taking it back to the infamous Playboy mansion Halloween parties, talking about when they were getting along and when they weren't, which celebrities misbehaved at the parties, the piece of press that Hef hated the most, sex in the haunted house, drug use at the mansion, setting off the smoke detectors, the stress of helping Hef with his costume, gatekeepers, hiding their spiritual beliefs and a haunted Kinko's! For more content, including exclusive behind the scenes photos, video versions of Girls Next Level and a whole extra podcast (Slumber Party with Holly and Bridget), join our Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/girlsnextlevel. See you there! Check out our new merchandise at https://www.represent.com/store/girls-next-level Go to https://www.microdose.com and use code: NEXTLEVEL to get free shipping & 30% off your first order! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's Halfway to Halloween with Holly and Bridget as they dive into The Girls Next Door Season 1 Episode 10 Ghostbusted! They are taking it back to the infamous Playboy mansion Halloween parties, talking about when they were getting along and when they weren't, which celebrities misbehaved at the parties, the piece of press that Hef hated the most, sex in the haunted house, drug use at the mansion, setting off the smoke detectors, the stress of helping Hef with his costume, gatekeepers, hiding their spiritual beliefs and a haunted Kinko's! For more content, including exclusive behind the scenes photos, video versions of Girls Next Level and a whole extra podcast (Slumber Party with Holly and Bridget), join our Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/girlsnextlevel. See you there! Check out our new merchandise at https://www.represent.com/store/girls-next-level Go to https://www.microdose.com and use code: NEXTLEVEL to get free shipping & 30% off your first order! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mia Nolting (illustrator and author of Slow Noticing: A Journal for Drawing Your World Inside and Out) joins Sean in an especially bespoke episode to talk flossing emergencies, the opposite of instant ramen, and the big, top attractions of the greater Sarasota area.Mia's latest book, Slow Noticing: A Journal for Drawing Your World Inside and Out, comes out April 18, and you can pre-order it now from publisher Penguin Random House, or via whatever bookstore you prefer, be it Powells, Barnes & Noble, Target, Amazon, or an independent bookseller near you through Bookshop.org! Get a copy now!You can find more of Mia's work on her website, mianolting.com, or on Instagram @mianolting. You can see some of her work with Studio Jelly at studiojelly.com.Mia has also recently started up a newsletter, so you can get her work delivered directly to your inbox at mianolting.substack.com!This episode was recorded Saturday, February 18, 2023 in Portland, Oregon. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Roderick Garr: Sitcoms to Spike Lee to Star Trek Roderick Garr played Regana Tosh on the fourth season DS9 episode "Hippocratic Oath," but his career goes far beyond his time on that space station.  Growing up in Buffalo, NY, Roderick tells us about his encounter as a child with Sammy Davis Jr. that changed the course of his life, what he learned during his time at Howard University and from his first professional tv role, the greatest lesson he learned from the great Richard Gant, working with the Mowry family on "Sister, Sister" and "Smart Guy" and Queen Latifah on "Living Single," working on sets with Spike Lee and more!  From there, it's onto Trek talk as we learn about the audition and makeup process for Regana Tosh, hanging out with Michael Westmore in his studio, working with Armin Shimerman, Micheal Dorn, and Rene Auberjonois, and how Kinko's fits into his DS9 role in a most unique way!  To learn more about Roderick's new film "If My People," visit this link - https://1922productions.com/  Please subscribe to our brand new YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/@trekuntold . There you will see all the old episodes of this show, as well as new episodes and all of our other content, including shorts and some other fun things planned for the future. Visit my Amazon shop to check out tons of Trek products and other things I enjoy - https://www.amazon.com/shop/thefightnerd View the Teespring store for Trek Untold gear & apparel - https://my-store-9204078.creator-spring.com Support Trek Untold by becoming a Patreon at Patreon.com/TrekUntold. Don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave a rating if you like us! Follow Trek Untold on Social Media Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/trekuntoldTwitter: https://www.twitter.com/trekuntoldFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/trekuntold Follow Nerd News Today on Social Media Twitter:  Twitter.com/NerdNews2Day Instagram: Instagram.com/NerdNewsToday Facebook: Facebook.com/NerdNewsToday Trek Untold is sponsored by Treksphere.com, powered by the RAGE Works Podcast Network, and affiliated with Nerd News Today.   The views expressed on air during Trek Untold do not represent the views of the RAGE Works staff, partners, or affiliates. 

Roderick Garr played Regana Tosh on the fourth season DS9 episode "Hippocratic Oath," but his career goes far beyond his time on that space station.  Growing up in Buffalo, NY, Roderick tells us about his encounter as a child with Sammy Davis Jr. that changed the course of his life, what he learned during his time at Howard University and from his first professional tv role, the greatest lesson he learned from the great Richard Gant, working with the Mowry family on "Sister, Sister" and "Smart Guy" and Queen Latifah on "Living Single," working on sets with Spike Lee and more!  From there, it's onto Trek talk as we learn about the audition and makeup process for Regana Tosh, hanging out with Michael Westmore in his studio, working with Armin Shimerman, Micheal Dorn, and Rene Auberjonois, and how Kinko's fits into his DS9 role in a most unique way!  To learn more about Roderick's new film "If My People," visit this link - https://1922productions.com/  Please subscribe to our brand new YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/@trekuntold . There you will see all the old episodes of this show, as well as new episodes and all of our other content, including shorts and some other fun things planned for the future. Visit my Amazon shop to check out tons of Trek products and other things I enjoy - https://www.amazon.com/shop/thefightnerd View the Teespring store for Trek Untold gear & apparel - https://my-store-9204078.creator-spring.com Support Trek Untold by becoming a Patreon at Patreon.com/TrekUntold. Don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave a rating if you like us! Follow Trek Untold on Social Media Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/trekuntoldTwitter: https://www.twitter.com/trekuntoldFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/trekuntold Follow Nerd News Today on Social Media Twitter: Twitter.com/NerdNews2DayInstagram: Instagram.com/NerdNewsTodayFacebook: Facebook.com/NerdNewsToday Trek Untold is sponsored by Treksphere.com, powered by the RAGE Works Podcast Network, and affiliated with Nerd News Today.

Augmented reveals the stories behind the new era of industrial operations, where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. In this episode of the podcast, the topic is "Post Lean." Our guest is Frode Odegaard, Chairman and CEO at the Post-Industrial Institute (https://post-industrial.institute/). In this conversation, we talk about the post-industrial enterprise going beyond digital and higher-order organizations. If you like this show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/). If you like this episode, you might also like Episode 102 on Lean Manufacturing with Michel Baudin (https://www.augmentedpodcast.co/102). Augmented is a podcast for industry leaders, process engineers, and shop floor operators, hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim (https://trondundheim.com/) and presented by Tulip (https://tulip.co/). Follow the podcast on Twitter (https://twitter.com/AugmentedPod) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/75424477/). Trond's Takeaway: Lean is a fundamental perspective on human organizations, but clearly, there were things not foreseen in the lean paradigm, both in terms of human and in terms of machine behavior. What are those things? How do they evolve? We have to start speculating now; otherwise, we will be unprepared for the future. One of the true questions is job stability. Will the assumptions made by early factory jobs ever become true again? And if not, how do you retain motivation in a workforce that's transient? Will future organizational forms perfect this task? Transcript: TROND: Welcome to another episode of the Augmented Podcast. Augmented brings industrial conversations that matter, serving up the most relevant conversations on industrial tech. Our vision is a world where technology will restore the agility of frontline workers. In this episode of the podcast, the topic is Post Lean. Our guest is Frode Odegard, Chairman and CEO at the Post-Industrial Institute. In this conversation, we talk about the post-industrial enterprise going beyond digital and higher-order organizations. Augmented is a podcast for industrial leaders, process engineers, and for shop floor operators hosted by futurist Trond Arne Undheim and presented by Tulip. Frode, welcome to Augmented. How are you? FRODE: Pretty good. TROND: Yeah. Well, look, talking to Norwegians living abroad that's become a sport of mine. You were born in Norway, software design from there, became an entrepreneur, moved to Silicon Valley. I also know you have an Aikido black belt; we talked about this. This could have become its own podcast, right? There's a long story here. FRODE: [laughs] Absolutely, yeah. TROND: But you're also the CEO of the Post-Industrial Institute, which I guess used to be called the Post-Lean Institute. But in any case, there's a big connection here to lean, which is a global community for leaders that are driving transition towards something post-lean, post-industrial, post-something. So with that context, tell me a little about your background and how you ended up doing what you're doing. FRODE: Born in Norway, as you pointed out. My folks had a process control company, so that was kind of the industry I was born into was industrial controls, which included visiting factories as a child and installing process control systems. So I was doing, you know, circuit board assembly at age eight because when you grow up in a family business, that's what you get to do. And I quickly gravitated towards software. I think I was 13 when I was working on my first compiler. So my first passion was really programming and language, design, implementation, and that sort of got me interested in theoretical computer science. So very far from what I do today, in some ways, but I think theoretical computer science, especially as a software architecture and all that, teaches you how to think and sort of connect the dots, and that's a good life skill. At 17, I started a software company in high school. And when I was 22, I immigrated to the United States after some trips here. I was on a Standards Committee. I was on the Sun User Group board of directors as a European representative. It was a weird story in itself, how that happened. So yeah, 1990, 1991, I'm in Silicon Valley. TROND: So you jumped ship, essentially. Because, I mean, I've heard a lot of people who come to the U.S. and are inspired, but you just basically jumped off the airplane. FRODE: Yeah, I like to say I was here as an entrepreneurial refugee. Things are different now in Norway, but for a long time, they had strange taxation rules, and very difficult to start companies and scale them. But also, they didn't really have the fancy French word. They didn't really have the milieu. They didn't have a community of people trying to build companies in tech. So tech was very much focused on either military applications, that was its own little industry and community, or the energy industry, the oil industry in particular. TROND: All of that seems to have changed quite a bit. I mean, not that you or I, I guess, are experts on that. As ex-pats, we're outside, so we're looking in, which is a whole other story, I guess. But I'm curious about one more thing in your background so Aikido, which, to me, is endlessly fascinating, perhaps because I only ever attended one Aikido training and, for some reason, decided I wasn't going to do it that year, and then I didn't get back to it. But the little I understand of Aikido it has this very interesting principle of using the opponent's force instead of attacking. That's at least what some people conceptualize around it. But you told me something different. You said there are several schools of Aikido, and one of them is slightly more aggressive, and you belong to that school. I found that quite interesting. FRODE: [laughs] Now I'm wondering about my own depiction of this, but the Aikido that I study is known as Iwama-style Aikido, and it's called that because there was an old town in Japan, which has been absorbed by a neighboring city now, but it was called Iwama, and that's where the founder of Aikido moved during the Second World War, and that's where he sort of completed the art. And that's a long technical story, but he included a fairly large weapons curriculum as well. So it's not just unarmed techniques; it's sword-knife stuff. And it's a really beautiful art in that all of the movements with or without weapons are the same, like, they will follow the same principles. In terms of not attacking, of course, on a philosophical level, it calls itself the art of peace. In a practical sense, you can use it offensively to, for example, if you have someone who is grabbing your child or something like that, this person is not attacking you, but you have to step in and address the situation, and you can use it offensively for sure. TROND: Very interesting. I was going to jump straight to what you're up to now, then, which is, I guess, charting this path towards a different kind of industrial enterprise. And you said that you earlier called your efforts post-lean, and now you're calling them post-industrial. It's this continuity in industry, Frode. Tell me a little bit more about that. FRODE: I think a good way to think about approaches to management and understanding the world around us is that various management practices, and philosophies, and ideas, and so on, have been developed in response to circumstances that were there at the time. So if you think about Frederick Taylor and the problems that he was trying to solve, they initially had a lot to do with just getting work organized and standardized. And then, in 1930s, you start seeing the use of statistical methods. Then you start seeing more of an interest in the psychology of work and so on. And lean kind of melts all of these things together. A great contribution from Toyota is you have a socio-technical system and organizational design where you have a new kind of culture that emphasizes continuous learning, continuous problem solving using some of these ideas and tools that were developed much earlier. Now, in the post-war years, what we see is information technology making business more scalable, also contributing to complexity, but certainly making large companies more scalable than they would have been otherwise. And what we see in the mid-1990s leading up to the mid-2000s is the commercial internet, and then we get smartphones. That's the beginning of a new kind of industrial landscape. And what we see then is instead of an increasing tendency towards centralization in firms and business models, you start seeing this decoupling and decentralization. And what I discovered was that's actually a new thing for the human species. Ever since the invention of agriculture 10,000 years ago and then cities in the Bronze Age a little over 5,000 years ago, and then the industrial revolutions, we've seen a culmination of improved mastery of the world, adapting the world to our needs, which is technology and increasing centralization. You had to move to where the work was, and now we're sort of coming out of the pandemic (Let's hope it doesn't come back.) that has accelerated in the pandemic, so you have this decentralization, decoupling. And this continuity and the way I started using the term post-lean, and we can jump back and forth as you'd like, it was just because a lot of the assumptions behind the lean practices and how those practices were implemented were based on the idea that you had organizations that lasted a long time. You had long employee tenures. You had a certain kind of a...I don't like this term, but a social contract between the firm and workers and managers and workers. And they would come and do their work on-site in person at the factory, and this world is kind of disappearing now. And so there's all of this work now being done. I think manufacturing labor forces peaked at a third of the workforce some decades ago. But now it's down to about 11%, even though manufacturing as a share of the economy has remained fairly constant since the 1940s. It's gotten more productive. So there are also all these new jobs that have been created with people doing different kinds of work, and much of that work is knowledge work. And a lot of these industrial-era management practices and ideas have to be changed for knowledge work. And so that was sort of my initial discovery. That happened in the early 2000s. I started a company in 2004, which was called initially Lean Software Institute. I wanted to basically take these ideas and adapt them to software development. And that was generalized for knowledge work in general. And because we have big clients like Lockheed Martin in the aerospace defense sector, we rebranded the company to the Lean Systems Institute. And so for ten years, myself and a small team, we did organizational redesign work looking at not just workflow but also a bunch of these other factors, which we can talk about, that you have to take into consideration like knowledge management and so on. And then it was about 2014, 2015, when I discovered, hey, even though we kind of extended lean to look at all these other things, there's this decentralization happening. And maybe we should fundamentally revisit what firms should look like and how the external landscape outside the organization changes the way we think about designing companies. TROND: Yeah. I found it interesting, obviously, that you started from the software angle. And you told me earlier that, in some ways, your kind of Lean efforts are almost in parallel to, I guess, what could be called the lean movement, although there's such a variety of lean practitioners out there. They're obviously not all in the manufacturing industry. That's the whole point. Toyota managed to inspire a whole host of other companies that had nothing to do with automotive and nothing to do even with any kind of basic manufacturing. And I guess the software industry is no different; you know, the industry as such was inspired by it. And as you said, Lockheed Martin, and perhaps not only for their manufacturing side, were inspired by it when running their software or other types of maybe even office-based knowledge work. So as you're coming to these realizations, what sorts of things is it that you then start to think about that are the same and that are different in terms of the classic assumptions of lean, as you know, reducing waste or improving a process in a specific way with all the assumptions, so stable labor force like you said. FRODE: In that initial period from 2004 to 2014, that's when I really worked on adapting lean to knowledge work. And so you could see some people were trying to reduce knowledge work to kind of a simplified version of itself. They were trying...and so I call that the reductionist approach where they then could count documents as inventory, and they could have a Kanban system and all of that. And the agile movement in software became very enthused about doing just that. And I think what we did was we went the opposite route, so we took an expansionist approach. So we said, well, we got to keep adding practices and models to the original lean to deal with not just the value stream architecture of an organization but also its structure, so organization architecture, how it manages information, and the shape of that information, where it's stored, and how it's designed. And it's also that's information architecture. And, of course, what we know from wonderful people like Melvin Conway, who discovered that there's a direct relationship between your technology architecture and the shape of the organization, is we really need to also take into consideration what we then called product architecture. Because if your product architecture, and your organization architecture, and your workflow, your value stream architecture is mismatched in product development as well as in manufacturing, that leads to huge misalignment. And that's a cause of massive inventory problems and so on. And then the last of the five dimensions that we have in this model, which we call the lean systems framework, was a way to look at an organization's culture. So there are values that you explicitly promote, so we call them the organizational ideals. And then you have the actual behaviors that don't always live up to the ideals. And then you have people's beliefs about the past, the present, and the future, so we call all of that social architecture. And I think the last bit of work we did in this model, which is a pretty rich model or a metamodel of organizations, is we added the way to look at leadership styles and leadership effectiveness as a function of character and competence of perceived effectiveness. So this was used in a bunch of mostly large organizations over a period of 10 years, and Lockheed was able to get a 72, 73 production in lead time, largest subcontractor in the Future Combat Systems. I think that's the biggest defense project in the history of the United States. [laughs] It was canceled by Congress in the end, but yeah, they got some great results. And a lot of that was because workflow bottlenecks were caused by these other problems in these other four dimensions that had to be addressed, so that was kind of our initial realization. And then there's that big break where we look at decentralization, and how is that causing us to revisit the assumptions about organizational design? So it's not like we get new dimensions of organizational design as much as starting to think about what's the ideal design. And those answers turn out to be very different than they have been up till now. TROND: So that's interesting. So both...you were kind of discovering some...maybe not weaknesses, just, you know, some social change that was happening that is affecting organizations nowadays, you know, in America or anywhere else trying to implement lean principles. But also, what you were saying about the agile movement and what's happening in software industrial organizations that it doesn't reflect what needs to be happening in industries across the board and perhaps not even in their own organizations because it is, I guess, if I paraphrase you a little bit, the agile principles they are very valid for achieving a very smooth software development process. But they're not so valid for a lot of other aspects having to do with social and organizational phenomena that you also need to take into account eventually. So, I mean, if that's correct, it's interesting, right? Because everybody obviously focuses on what they are doing. So the agilists, I guess, they're optimizing a software development process. The lean folks, the classic lean folks, are optimizing a production line. But today's knowledge work is, I guess, over these years also, Frode, it has changed a bit. FRODE: It has changed, and there is more machine systems, software systems. We have more tools, although we're still in the early stages of what's going to come with the use of AI to make knowledge work more productive and so on. But I think one thing that's important, because I don't want to throw anyone under the bus here, is practitioners. There's a lot to be learned from practitioners. Often, they're kind of apologetic, "Oh, I'm not doing the pure X, Y, Z method. We have to adapt it a little bit." Well, guess what? That's what Toyota did. And so what happened is a lot of western companies they were just trying to copy what Toyota did without understanding why those things work there. And it's when you can adopt it, so that's also sort of martial arts. -- TROND: That's actually a fantastic point, Frode, because if you're very, very diehard lean, some people would say, "Well, lean is whatever Toyota does." But on the other hand, for Toyota, lean is whatever Toyota does, right? And it seems to have worked for them. That does not even mean that Toyota would tell you to do exactly what they are doing because they will tell you what makes sense for your organization. In a nutshell, that seems to be – FRODE: And I was there. I mean, I was, you know, I remember one time I was really thinking about standardizing work. And I was reading about the history of all this and reading about Frederick Taylor and the very early days of all of this. And I was coming up with a checklist for housework. I was trying to implement standard work for housework. And guess what? It didn't really work. My girlfriend was upset. [laughter] TROND: Implementing standards for housework. I like it. FRODE: Yeah. I mean, if you see something that needs to be cleaned, just clean it. I was like, "No, no, we need a checklist. We need your exit and entry conditions." [laughter] TROND: You should work at ISS, you know, the big cleaning professionals company. FRODE: There you go. And people have done that, right? But I like to tell this joke about how do you know the difference between a terrorist and a methodologist? And the answer is you can negotiate with a terrorist. TROND: Yeah, that's right. FRODE: So the methodologist believes that his or her methodology is the answer to all things. And so what we were trying to do with the Lean Systems Framework was not to say, "Ah, you know, all this lean stuff is invalid." We were trying to say, "Well, the methods that they had and the practices that they had that were available to us via the literature...because we never went to visit Toyota. We talked to a bunch of companies that were doing a lot of these things, and we were familiar with the literature. But we realized there's a whole bunch of other things that are not being addressed, so we have to add those. And that's why I called it the expansionist approach as opposed to the folks taking the reductionist approach, which is we have to shoehorn everything into making it look like manufacturing. But, you know, product development is not manufacturing. And Toyota's product development practices look nothing like their manufacturing processes. It's completely different. And that's a much less well-known area of lean...although the Lean Enterprise Institute has published good stuff on this book. Lean product development is completely different from lean production. And that was not as well-known and certainly not known by the people in the agile world. Our attitude was always, well, the circumstances change or even from one company to another, the tools might have to change. And so the skill you want to develop in our case as researchers, and advisors, and teachers, or in the case of practitioners, as leaders, or implementers, is keep learning about what other people are doing and what works for them and try to understand what the deeper principles are that you then use to construct a solution that's appropriate for that situation. That's really all it is. TROND: That's fabulous. So tell me then, apart from Lockheed Martin, what are some of the other organizations that you've worked with? How have they thought about these things? I mean, how does your community work? Is it essentially, I mean, before COVID at least, you met, and you discuss these things, and you sort of reflect on how they show up in your organizations and discuss best practices. Or do you kind of write papers together? How does this knowledge evolve in your approach? FRODE: It's important to point out here, like in the history of the company, which has been around now for (I'm feeling old.) 18 years, so after the first ten years, there was a big break because that's when we started working on okay, well, what comes after even the expansionist version of lean that we were doing, which was called the Lean Systems Framework? And that's when we started working on all of this post-lean stuff. And so the companies we worked with in the first decade were the likes of AT&T, and Sony, and Lockheed, and Honeywell, and mostly large companies, a few smaller ones too. But they had a lot of problems with complexity. And often, they were doing a combination of hardware and software. And they were in industries that had a lot of complexity. So in 2014, 2015, there was a big shift where I'd spent about six months to a year reading, talking to a bunch of people, trying to come up with what was going to be the next new thing. And that was kind of the journey for me as a founder as well because I felt like I'd done all this organizational redesign work, soup to nuts. And it wasn't just Kaizen. We did Kaikaku, which is much less known in the lean world, and that's radical redesign, basically. And we did this working on a board C-level with a lot of companies. TROND: Tell me more about Kaikaku. Because, like you said, it's not a vernacular that's really well-known outside of the inner circle of lean, I guess. FRODE: Yeah. So Kaikaku is where you look at an organization, and basically, instead of thinking about how do we put in mechanisms to start improving it incrementally, you say, "Well, there's so much low-hanging fruit here. And there's a breakthrough needed in a very short time. And we're just going to put together a design team, basically, a joint design team, and essentially redesign the whole thing and implement it. So it is a radical redesign. It hasn't been; at least, at the time we were doing it, there were not a lot of details available in the literature. And you heard stories like Ohno-san would walk into a factory and just say, "Well, this is completely unacceptable. Move this machine over here, and this machine over here. And can't you guys see..." So we didn't do it that way. We didn't tell the clients what the answer should be. We taught them. We had the executive spend a week with us learning about the Lean Systems Framework, and they mapped out the organization they had. And then, basically, we facilitated them through a process that could take sometimes a few weeks designing the organization the way it should be. And then there was an implementation project, and they put it in place, so... TROND: But Kaikaku basically is a bit more drastic than Kaizen. FRODE: Very much so. TROND: Yeah. So it's like a discontinuous sort of break. It's not necessarily that you tell people to do things differently, but you make it clear that things have to be different maybe in your own way. But you're certainly not going for continuous improvement without any kind of disruption. There will be disruption in Kaikaku. FRODE: I mean, it is disruption. And if you think of the Fremont Factory Toyota took over, that was a reboot. [laughs] And so now -- TROND: Right. So it's almost as if that's where you can use the software analogy because you're essentially rebooting a system. And rebooting, of course, you sometimes you're still stuck with the same system, but you are rebooting it. So you're presumably getting the original characteristics back. FRODE: So I think of it as sort of a reconfiguration. And in the case of the Fremont factory, of course, there were a bunch of people who were there before who were hired back but also some that weren't that we tend now to avoid just because the knowledge people had was valuable. And in most cases, the issue wasn't that people were malicious or completely incompetent. It was just that the design of the organization was just so wrong in so many ways. [laughs] And what we had to do, it was more of a gradual reboot in the sense that you had to keep the existing organization running. It had customers. It had obligations. And so it wasn't a shutdown of the factory, the proverbial factory, it wasn't that. But yeah, after I started looking at the effects of decentralization and starting to question these assumptions behind lean practices the way they had appeared in the mainstream, that was around the time, early 2015, I started to use the term post-lean. It wasn't because I thought I had all the answers yet or certainly, and still, I don't think I do. But it was clear that there was an inheritance from lean thinking in terms of engaging people in the organization to do things better. But the definition of better I thought would change, and the methods I thought would change. And the assumptions behind the methods, such as long-lasting organizations, long employee tenures, tight coupling between people in organizations, organizations taking a long time to grow to a large size, and human problem solving, which already was being eaten by software back then or elevated, I should say, by software, all of these assumptions needed to be revisited so... TROND: They did. But I have to say, what a gutsy kind of concept to call it post-lean. I mean, I co-wrote a book this year, and we're calling things Augmented Lean for the specific reason maybe that we actually agree with you that there are some things of lean that are really still relevant but also because it takes an enormous confidence, almost a hubris, to announce something post a very, very successful management principle. FRODE: It was the theoretical computer scientist in me. TROND: [laughs] FRODE: So I thought that surely from first principles, we could figure this out and not that it would be the same answer in every situation. But I think it was also, at that point, we had a decade of field experience behind us in doing customized organizational redesign with clients in many different industries. So we knew already that the answer wasn't going to be the same every time. And in a lot of the lean Literature, the assumption was that you weren't really going to dramatically change the organizational structure, for example, which we had a lot of experience with doing. And we already had experience with teams of teams, and just-in-time changes, and reconfigurations, and so on because we thought of organizations the way software people think of organizations which are, you know, they're computational objects that have humans, and then there are social, technical objects. And they're reconfigurable. And I think if you grew up in a manufacturing world, the shape of the organization is sort of attached to... there are physical buildings and equipment and all of that. So -- TROND: And this is so essential to discuss, Frode, because you're so right. And that's a real thing. And that's something we write about in our book as well. There is a very real sense that I think, honestly, the whole manufacturing sector but certainly the first automation efforts and, indeed, a lot of the digital efforts that have been implemented in manufacturing they took for granted that we cannot change this fact that we have infrastructure. We have people; we have machines; we have factories; we have shop floors. All of these things are fixed. Now we just got to figure out how to fit the humans in between, which is how they then interpreted waste, being let's reduce the physical waste so that humans can move around. But really, the overall paradigm seems to have been, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to have been that the machines and the infrastructure was given, and the humans were the ones that had to adapt and reduce all this waste. And no one considered for a second that it could be that the machines were actually wasteful themselves [laughs] or put in the wrong place or in the wrong order or sequence or whatever you have. But with other types of organizations, this is obviously much easier to see it and much easier to change, I mean, also. FRODE: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And software is an example of this because now we take for granted that a large percentage of the population works from home and don't want to go back. But if you are part of that 10%, 11% of the population working in a factory and you have to show up at the factory because that's where the machine is that goes ding, that, you know, [laughs] it's not work that requires only a low level of education of course. That hasn't been the case for a while. And these are people with master's degrees. And they're making sure all of this equipment runs. This is fancy equipment. So what we learned in that 10-year period was this is not just about workflow. It's a five-dimensional model, so there's workflow, organization structure, and knowledge management, the technology, architecture, the product you're making, and the culture. And all of these are five axes if you will, So 5D coordinate system and you can reconfigure. You can make organizations into anything you want. Now, the right answer might be different in different industries at different lifecycle stages of companies. And basically, our thinking was that we weren't going to just teach our clients or even help our clients. We certainly weren't going to just tell them the answer because I always thought that was a terrible idea. We were going to help them redesign themselves for their emerging landscape, their emerging situation, but also help them think about things, or learn to think about these things in general, so that if their landscape changed again, or if they merged with another company, then they had the thinking skills, and they understood what these different dimensions were to be able to redesign themselves again. TROND: That makes a lot of sense. FRODE: That's kind of the whole – TROND: I just want to insert here one thing that happened throughout, well, I mean, it was before your time, I guess. But remember, in the '70s, there was this concept among futurists, Toffler, and others that, oh, we are moving into a service economy. Manufacturing the real value now is in services. Well, that was a short-lasting fad, right? I mean, turns out we are still producing things. We're making things, and even the decentralization that you're talking about is not the end of the production economy. You produce, and you are, I mean, human beings produce. FRODE: No, I never thought that we would see the end of manufacturing. And the term post-industrial, he was not the person that coined it, I think. It was coined 10 or 20 years earlier. But there's a book by Daniel Bell, which is called The Coming of Post-industrial Society, where he talks about both the sociological challenges and the changes in the economy moving to a more service-based knowledge-based economy. Of course, what happened is manufacturing itself became more knowledge-based, but that was kind of the whole idea of what Toyota was doing. MID-ROLL AD: In the new book from Wiley, Augmented Lean: A Human-Centric Framework for Managing Frontline Operations, serial startup founder Dr. Natan Linder and futurist podcaster Dr. Trond Arne Undheim deliver an urgent and incisive exploration of when, how, and why to augment your workforce with technology, and how to do it in a way that scales, maintains innovation, and allows the organization to thrive. The key thing is to prioritize humans over machines. Here's what Klaus Schwab, Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum, says about the book: "Augmented Lean is an important puzzle piece in the fourth industrial revolution." Find out more on www.augmentedlean.com, and pick up the book in a bookstore near you. TROND: So, Frode, tell me a little bit about the future outlook. What are we looking at here in the lean post-industrial world? What will factories look like? What is knowledge work going to look like? FRODE: Yeah, so I think what we're going to see is that companies that do manufacturing are slowly but surely going to start to look like other kinds of companies or companies that do knowledge work. The content of manufacturing work has become more and more filled with knowledge work already. That's a process that's been going on for decades. As manufacturing technology improves, I think after many, many generations of new technology platforms, we are going to end up in a world where basically any product that you order is going to be either printed atom by atom in your home or in a microfactory, if it's a big bulky thing, in your neighborhood where you can rent capacity in a just-in-time basis. That's not going to happen overnight. This is going to take a few decades. But you can easily see how this kind of mirrors what happened to old chains like Kinko's and so on where if you needed something to be printed, I mean, I remember there were printers. [laughs] And then you had to go to the equivalent of a Kinko's, and you could, you know, if you wanted to print 100 copies of a manual back in the day when we still did that, you could get that done, and that was surely more efficient than doing it at home. And in your home office or at your office, you would have a laser printer. And now we have a $99 inkjet printer, or you just might get it included when you order your laptop, or you may not even care anymore because you have a tablet, and you're just looking at it on the tablet. So there's this phenomenon of some of the things getting smaller and almost disappearing. Now what has happened...this was underway for a while, but the relationship between people and companies has increasingly become more loosely coupled. So a big part of the post-industrial transition is that individuals are empowered, and organizations now become more of a means. They're not institutions that are supposed to last for a long time. I think that ideal is fading. And so they're in a means to an end to produce economic value. And every investor will agree it's just that they're going to be much more reconfigurable, a lot of management work. There's managing resources, tracking progress, tracking inventory, communicating with customers. A lot of that stuff is going to be eaten by software and powered by AI. That doesn't mean people go away. But I think that a lot of the repetitive management administrative work, much more than we can imagine today, will be eaten by software and AIs. TROND: But one of the consequences of that surely, Frode, is somewhat risky because there was a certain safety in the bureaucracy of any large organization, whether government or private, because you knew that, yes, they might be somewhat stiflingly and boring, I guess, or predictable, whatever you might want to call it, but at least they were around, and you could count on them being around. And if you wanted to know what approach was being applied, if you had experienced it once, you knew it. And if you were a government, you knew that this is the GE Way or this is the whatever way, and it was stable. But what you're charting here is something where the only stability might be in the configuration of machines but even that, of course, you know, evolves really rapidly. And even the algorithms and the AIs and whatever is put into the system will evolve. And then, the humans will move around between different organizational units a little quicker than before. So where do you control [laughs] what's happening here? FRODE: So one of the things to keep in mind...I'll answer this from a technical perspective but also from a sociological perspective. So I'll take the latter first. So we are used to a world of hierarchies. So from the invention of agriculture, that's when silos were invented. The first organizational silos were actually centered around corn silos [laughs] and so a shared resource, right? And we need governance for that, you know, who gets the corn and how much your family's already had enough this week and so on. And then, in the Bronze Age, you see more specialization of labor and more hierarchies. So the pyramids were built by determined organizations. [laughs] so just like Melvin Conway would tell us. And the same happened with The Industrial Revolution. So you had management; you had oversight. And then as we are thinking about this matured, you know, we developed this notion of organizational values. So that had to do with the day-to-day behavior so people, including managers, and how they should treat their people and what the employee experience should be like. And then kind of management is about organizing people or organizing people and resources to pursue short or long-term objectives. So, what happens if the AI goes crazy? What happens if there's a bug in the software if there is a flaw? On the technical side of this, what I would say is just like we have people who are concerned about safety with robots, industrial robots in factories, you're going to have people who look at the same kind of thing in organizations. You're also going to have AI watching AIs. So you're going to have a lot of software mechanisms that are there for safety. People also have the option to leave. The threshold for quitting your job now and you log out from your current employer if you're sitting in your home in the Caribbean somewhere [laughs] because you can live wherever you want and logging in somewhere else and taking a job, that threshold is lower than ever. So organizations have an incentive to treat their people well. TROND: Well, the interesting thing, though, is that Silicon Valley has been like that for years. I mean, that was the joke about Silicon Valley that you changed your job faster than you changed your parking space. FRODE: [laughs] TROND: Because your parking space is like really valued territory. It's like, okay, here's where I park. But you might go into a different part of the office building or in a different office building. So this has been part of some part of high tech for the industry for a while. But now I guess you're saying it's becoming globalized and generalized. FRODE: Yeah. And part of it it's the nature of those kinds of jobs, you know, of doing knowledge work that's where you're not tied to equipment or location as much. Now, of course, in Silicon Valley, you've had people go back and forth about, and not just here but in other innovation hubs too, about the importance of being together in the room. You're doing brainstorming. You are talking to potential customers. You're prototyping things with Post-it Notes. People have to be there. And I think there's an added incentive because of the pandemic and people wanting to work from home more to develop better collaboration tools than Post-it Notes on whiteboards. But the last data we have on this is pre-pandemic, so I can't tell you exactly what they are today. But the employee tenures for startups in Silicon Valley when we looked last was 10.8 months average tenure. And for the larger tech companies, you know, the Apples and the Googles and so on, was a little bit more than two years so between two and three years, basically. And so because more jobs in the economy are moving into that category of job where there's a lower threshold for switching, and there's a high demand for people who can do knowledge work, you're going to see average employee tenders going down just like average organization lifespans have been going down because of innovation. TROND: Which presumably, Frode, also means that productivity has to go up because you have to ramp up these people really fast. So your incentive is Frode started yesterday. He's already contributing to a sprint today, and on Thursday, he is launching a product with his team. Because otherwise, I mean, these are expensive workers, and they're only going to be around for a year. When is your first innovation? FRODE: It depends on where the company focuses its innovation. And this will not be the common case, but let's say that you are developing a whole new kind of computing device and a whole new operating system that's going to be very different. You have to learn about everything that's been done so far, and it takes a lot to get started. If what you are doing is more sort of applied, so you're developing apps to be used internally in an insurance company, and you're an app developer, and you know all of the same platforms and tools that they're already using because that was one of the criteria for getting the job, yeah, then you ramp up time is going to be much shorter. All of these companies they will accept the fact, have had to accept the fact, that people just don't stay as long in their jobs. That also gives some added incentive to get them up and running quickly and to be good to people. And I think that's good. I think it's nice that employers have to compete for talent. They have to have to treat their people well. I think it's a much better solution than unions, where you would basically try to have a stranglehold on employers on behalf of all the workers. And the less commoditized work is, the less standardized the work is in that sense. The less business models like those of unions, whether they're voluntarily or involuntarily, because the government sort of makes it easier for them to set up that relationship and sort themselves. The thing that surprised me is that now and as we're coming out of COVID, unions in the United States are making somewhat of a comeback. And I'm sort of scratching my head. Maybe this means that there are a lot of companies where they have scaled because of IT, Amazon being an example. They wouldn't have been able to scale the way they have without information technology. But they haven't yet gotten to the point where they have automated a bunch of these jobs. So they've hired so many people doing soul-sucking repetitive work, and they're doing their best to treat them well. But the whole mentality of the people who have designed this part of the organization is very Taylorist. And so people are complaining, and they're having mental health problems and so on. And then yeah, then there's going to be room for someone to come and say, "Well, hey, we can do a better job negotiating for you." But gradually, over time, fewer and fewer jobs will be like that. One of the sort of interesting aspects of the post-industrial transition is that you have industries...well, some industries, like online retail on the historical scales, is still a young industry. But you have industries that when IT was young, you know, I think the oldest software company in the U.S. was started in 1958. So in the aftermath of that, when you started seeing software on mainframes and so on, what software made possible was scaling up management operations for companies. So they made them more scalable. You could open more plants. You could open more offices, whether it was manufacturing or service businesses. And this happened before people started using software to automate tasks, which is a more advanced use. And the more complex the job is, and the more dexterity is required, physically moving things, the higher the R&D investment is required to automate those jobs. The technology that's involved in that is going to become commoditized. And it's going to spread. And so what you're going to see is even though more people have been hired to do those kinds of jobs because the management operations have scaled, fewer people are going to be needed in the next 10-20 years because the R&D investment is going to pay off for automating all of those tasks. And so then we're going to get back to eventually...I like to think of Amazon as just like it's a layer in the business stack or technology stack. So if I need something shipped from A to B or I need to have some sort of a virtual shopping facility, [laughs] I'm not going to reinvent Amazon, but Amazon has to become more efficient. And so the way they become more efficient is drone delivery of packages and then just-in-time production. And then, they take over everything except for the physical specifications for the product to be manufactured. TROND: It's interesting you say that because I guess if you are Amazon right now, you're thinking of yourself in much wider terms than you just said. But what I'm thinking, Frode is that I'm finding your resident Scandinavian. I'm seeing your Scandinavianhood here. The way you talk about meaningful work, and knowledge work, and how workers should have dignity and companies should treat people well, I found that very interesting. And I think if that aspect of the Scandinavian workplace was to start to be reflected globally, that would be a good thing. There are some other aspects perhaps in Scandinavia which you left behind, and I left behind, that we perhaps should take more inspiration from many other places in the world that have done far better in terms of either manufacturing, or knowledge work, or innovation, or many other things. But that aspect, you know -- FRODE: It's a big discussion itself. I mean, I was kind of a philosophical refugee from Norway. I was a tech-oriented, free-market person. I didn't like unions. I didn't like the government. TROND: [laughs] FRODE: But at the same time, that didn't mean I thought that people should not be treated well that worked into the ground. I thought people should just have healthy voluntary sort of collaborative relationships in business or otherwise. And I've seen technology as a means of making that happen. And I have no sympathy with employers that have trouble with employees because they treat people like crap. I think it's well deserved. But I also have no sympathy with unions that are strong-arming employers. TROND: You have just listened to another episode of the Augmented Podcast with host Trond Arne Undheim. The topic was Post Lean, and our guest was Frode Odegard, Chairman, and CEO at the Post-Industrial Institute. In this conversation, we talked about the post-industrial enterprise. My takeaway is that lean is a fundamental perspective on human organizations, but clearly, there were things not foreseen in the lean paradigm, both in terms of human and in terms of machine behavior. What are those things? How do they evolve? We have to start speculating now; otherwise, we will be unprepared for the future. One of the true questions is job stability. Will the assumptions made by early factory jobs ever become true again? And if not, how do you retain motivation in a workforce that's transient? Will future organizational forms perfect this task? Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, subscribe at augmentedpodcast.co or in your preferred podcast player, and rate us with five stars. And if you liked this episode, you might also like Episode 102 on Lean Manufacturing with Michel Baudin. Hopefully, you'll find something awesome in these or in other episodes, and if so, do let us know by messaging us; we would love to share your thoughts with other listeners. The Augmented Podcast is created in association with Tulip, the frontline operation platform that connects people, machines, devices, and systems in a production or logistics process in a physical location. Tulip is democratizing technology and empowering those closest to operations to solve problems. Tulip is also hiring, and you can find Tulip at tulip.co. Please go ahead and share this show with colleagues who care about where industrial tech is heading. To find us on social media is easy; we are Augmented Pod on LinkedIn and Twitter and Augmented Podcast on Facebook and YouTube. Augmented — industrial conversations that matter. See you next time. Special Guest: Frode Odegaard.

Today, celebrity wedding officiant Roxy Birchfield shares the story of her 10th anniversary vow renewal ceremony at the Wedding Pavilion, with a reception at the Grand Floridian Convention Center and a dessert party at Germany Promenade, complete with Soarin' mix-in. Roxy and Joshua were married three weeks after they met, on their lunch hour, by a notary at Kinko's! So for their 10th anniversary, they pulled out all the stops, incorporating a bagpiper, an appearance by Mickey Mouse, performances by drummers and carnival dancers, and even a 12-foot faux cake as the centerpiece of their reception! With her years of experience attending weddings and marrying couples, Roxy offers tons of great advice on this week's episode for anyone considering a wedding or vow renewal at Walt Disney World! Click here to see ALL the photos!

What I learned from reading Copy This!: How I turned Dyslexia, ADHD, and 100 square feet into a company called Kinkos by Paul Orfalea.Follow Invest Like The Best in your favorite podcast player hereTwo episodes I recommend: Paul Orfalea - It's About the Money episode 299David Senra - Passion & Pain episode 292 [5:23] I've never met a more circular, out-of-the-box thinker. It's often exhausting trying to keep up with him.[6:21] I graduated from high school eighth from the bottom of my class of 1,200. Frankly, I still have no idea how those seven kids managed to do worse than I did.[9:29] I also have no mechanical ability to speak of. There isn't a machine at Kinko's I can operate. I could barely run the first copier we leased back in 1970. It didn't matter. All I knew was that was I could sell what came out of it.[11:24] Building an entirely new sort of business from a single Xerox copy machine gave me the life the world seemed determined to deny me when I was younger.[14:04] The A students work for the B students, the C students run the companies, and the D students dedicate the buildings.[24:02] I learned to turn a lot of busywork over to other people. That's an important skill. If you don't develop it, you'll be so busy, busy, busy that you can't get a free hour, not to mention a free week or month, to sit back and think creatively about where you want to be heading and how you are going to get there.[25:07] There's no better way to stay "on" your business than to think creatively and constantly about your marketing: how you are marketing, who you are marketing to, and, always, how you could be doing a better job at it. You'd be amazed what kind of business you can generate by a seemingly simple thing like handing out flyers.[27:18] The phone rang. It was one of our store managers calling to ask me how to handle a bounced check. I held the receiver away from my face and looked at it, flabbergasted. If every store manager needed my help to deal with a bounced check, then we really had problems.[40:55] I never walked in the back door used by coworkers. I walked in the front door so I could see things from the customer's perspective.[49:06] You had to remember he'd been picking up the best ideas from all around the country.[55:14] I believe in getting out of as much work as I possibly can.[55:45] By now, you'd have to be as bad a reader as I am not to figure out that I have a dark side. You rarely hear people talk about their dark sides, especially business leaders, which is a shame because successful businesses aren't usually started by laid-back personalities. I don't hide the fact that I have a problem with anger.[1:04:37] I'll give you an example of a corporate view of money. We used to sell passport photos at Kinko's and we advertised the service in the local Yellow Pages. It would cost us 75 cents to make a passport photo. I calculated that price jumped by $1 to $1.75 when you added in the cost of the Yellow Pages ads. We'd sell those photos for $13 a piece. You think this is a nice business? Shortly after we sold a controlling stake in Kinko's, the new budget people came in and, to make their numbers, they got rid of the Yellow Pages ads. They saw it as an advertising expense and didn't take into account how it affected the rest of our business. I used to go to the office and think, "Are they deliberately trying to be idiots?" These straight-A types drove me nuts. Then, like a self-fulfilling prophecy, we abandoned our passport business. That is corporate dyslexia. There is a lot of corporate dyslexia going on out there.

Paul Orfalea is the legendary founder Kinko's.   If you guys haven't heard of Kinko's before, it was a leading retail chain for people to use copying machines in the late 90s.    Paul ran the company for 30 years, and it was later acquired by FedEx for $2.4 billion dollars in 2004!   Paul is an AMAZING entrepreneur and also very humble.   In this episode, Paul shares the top life and business lessons he learned over the years.

My guest today is Paul Orfalea. Paul founded Kinkos, the popular copy chain, in 1970. He started with a single photocopy shop in California and grew the business into a $2 billion multinational operation over the course of his 30 years in charge. Paul is a non-traditional leader in the best sense and we discuss his philosophy of business building, from why your subordinates should frustrate you, why you shouldn't love your business and tips he learned on hiring well. Please enjoy this conversation with Paul Orfalea.    Founders podcast on Paul Orfalea.   For the full show notes, transcript, and links to mentioned content, check out the episode page here.   -----   This episode is brought to you by Tegus. Tegus streamlines the investment research process so you can get up to speed and find answers to critical questions on companies faster and more efficiently. The Tegus platform surfaces the hard-to-get qualitative insights, gives instant access to critical public financial data through BamSEC, and helps you set up customized expert calls. It's all done on a single, modern SaaS platform that offers 360-degree insight into any public or private company. I've been so impressed by the platform that my firm, Positive Sum, recently made an investment in Tegus. We did so because we feel that Tegus will be the gold standard platform for investing research for decades to come. As a listener, you can take Tegus for a free test drive by visiting tegus.co/patrick.    -----   Today's episode is brought to you by Brex. Brex is the integrated financial platform trusted by the world's most innovative entrepreneurs and fastest-growing companies. With Brex, you can move money fast for instant impact with high-limit corporate cards, payments, venture debt, and spend management software all in one place. Ready to accelerate your business? Learn more at brex.com/best.   -----   Invest Like the Best is a property of Colossus, LLC. For more episodes of Invest Like the Best, visit joincolossus.com/episodes.    Past guests include Tobi Lutke, Kevin Systrom, Mike Krieger, John Collison, Kat Cole, Marc Andreessen, Matthew Ball, Bill Gurley, Anu Hariharan, Ben Thompson, and many more.   Stay up to date on all our podcasts by signing up to Colossus Weekly, our quick dive every Sunday highlighting the top business and investing concepts from our podcasts and the best of what we read that week. Sign up here.   Follow us on Twitter: @patrick_oshag | @JoinColossus   Show Notes [00:02:58] - [First question] - What it was like to be a very bad student in highschool [00:04:22] - When he first realized he was unemployable [00:05:02] - The origin story of the very first Kinko's [00:06:13] - What the ideal progression of an entrepreneur is in his mind  [00:06:57] - Recognizing real customer problems and what he enjoys most about sales [00:07:53] - Finding what has worked well in each Kinko's and coaching managers [00:08:54] - Something he found that a manager was doing that blew him away [00:10:22] - Getting messages from his brain to everyone else in the Kinko's network  [00:11:45] - The difference of working on and not in the business [00:13:22] - What he got better at when it came to managing people  [00:13:57] - Why a good salesperson will sell you broke   [00:14:41] - Disagreeableness as a positive characteristic for people in business [00:15:08] - Whether or not candor is different from disagreeableness [00:15:36] - Why he teaches, what he teaches, and his teaching style [00:18:31] - Explaining the Federal Reserve in two minutes   [00:19:47] - What students most commonly want from him   [00:20:06] - Whether or not making yourself inaccessible as a leader is good for promoting a self-starter attitude amongst team members  [00:21:39] - The story about tearing down a sign that was antagonistic to a customer [00:21:58] - The role of anger in his career and something he's worked on over time [00:22:31] - Where Kinko's falls on the spectrum of bad to great businesses [00:24:09] - Characteristics he'd look for in founders to back a business early [00:25:08] - Qualities of a business he'd cultivate more or less if he could start over [00:26:18] - Lessons learned about using the word employee [00:26:42] - His strategy for where to go next once he had his original concept [00:27:21] - The most clever marketing strategy he ever deployed or designed [00:27:45] - Learning to spread the glory instead of the money   [00:28:30] - The state of entrepreneurship today compared to when he started  [00:29:50] - How he instilled frugality and the saving mentality in the business  [00:30:42] - What motivated him across his career [00:31:35] - Why being in it for the money seems odd in today's lens [00:32:34] - Who he most admired or most admires today  [00:32:51] - Let My People Go Surfing: The Education of a Reluctant Businessman [00:33:08] - Preserving the alignment of integrity and action  [00:33:42] - What it felt like to sell a business he'd worked so hard on  [00:34:57] - How good he is naturally with numbers and math being dyslexic  [00:37:17] - Defining success as having your adult children want to hang out with you and what stood out about his parents to him  [00:38:05] - His parents' impression of him while he was building Kinko's  [00:38:34] - What has his interest and keeps his interest most  [00:39:56] - The most interesting person he's ever worked with at Kinko's [00:40:48] - What he would have done differently if he started from scratch [00:41:24] - Something that is most underappreciated about the United States  [00:43:00] - The kindest thing anyone has ever done for him  [00:43:57] - A big lesson he's earned in a deeper way that he wishes he could share with others