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President Biden said that ISIS leader Ibrahim al-Hashimi al-Qurayshi blew himself up as U.S. special forces conducted a pre-dawn raid in northern Syria on Thursday. The president said the all Americans returned safely from the operation and every effort was made to limit civilian casualties.This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez, and national security correspondent Greg Myre.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Republicans are the slight favorites to win an open Senate seat in Ohio, but first their candidate will need to prevail in a crowded primary fight. Democratic front-runner Tim Ryan is already keeping a packed campaign schedule — but he could have trouble persuading the independent voters he needs in an increasingly Republican state.This episode: White House correspondent Ayesha Rascoe, congressional correspondent Kelsey Snell, and national political correspondent Don Gonyea.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Civil rights advocates say an algorithm at the heart the First Step Act, the 2018 bipartisan criminal justice reform law, should be overhauled or scrapped. Also: Kenneth Polite, a Black man who lost a sibling to gun violence is heading the Justice Department's criminal prosecution division.This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez, and national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Activists say the president has made little substantive progress on overhauling the U.S. immigration system despite pledging as a candidate to work toward a more humane and open immigration system. This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez, and national desk correspondent Joel Rose.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says Democrats will move to confirm Biden's choice as quickly as possible. And Trump allies are under investigation for an electoral college gambit — but experts say that it's unlikely they will face criminal penalties.This episode: White House correspondent Ayesha Rascoe, acting congressional correspondent Deirdre Walsh, voting reporter Miles Parks, and senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

A new congressional district in Colorado that is forty percent could be the site of one of the country's closest House races in November. Democratic organizers in Colorado and across the country are worried their party may not to be able to win enough support with Latino voters after Republicans proved competitive with the crucial demographic in 2020.This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, congressional reporter Claudia Grisales, and demographics and culture correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Breyer's retirement gives President Biden his first opportunity to name a new justice to the court. During the presidential campaign, he pledged to name an African American woman if he got the chance. This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, White House correspondent Scott Detrow, and legal affairs correspondent Nina Totenberg.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

After Democrats failed to pass federal voting rights legislation, changes to election processes enacted by Republican-controlled state legislatures will reshape how voters cast a ballot in 2022 and beyond.This episode: White House correspondent Scott Detrow, voting reporter Miles Parks, KUT reporter Ashley Lopez, and WABE reporter Sam Gringlas.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

8,500 U.S. troops are on heightened alert for deployment to Europe after Russia stationed more than 100,000 military personnel on its border with Ukraine. Europe's considerable economic links to Russia have complicated the response to the Kremlin's threats against Ukraine.This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, White House correspondent Scott Detrow, and international affairs correspondent Jackie Northam.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Kamala Harris made history when she became the first woman and the first woman of color to serve as vice president. But in an often thankless job, and tasked with a portfolio of politically thorny issues, her first year in office was a mixed bag. Also, a pollster who has spent more than two decades speaking with young people explains what motivates Gen-Z voters — and why politicians will ignore them at their peril.This episode: White House correspondent Scott Detrow, White House correspondent Asma Khalid, and political correspondent Juana Summers. Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

The court ruled that the former president cannot block the release of 800 pages of his records to the House committee investigating the Jan. 6 insurrection. The panel also asked Ivanka Trump, Trump's daughter and a former presidential adviser, to testify, and a request for former Vice President Mike Pence could be on the way, signaling that the investigation is getting closer to Trump's inner circle. This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, congressional correspondent Claudia Grisales, and justice correspondent Ryan Lucas. Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

In a press conference to mark one year in office, the president touted his administration's progress combating COVID, while conceding he'll likely need to break up his signature legislation to get it through the Senate. He also threatened major sanctions on Russia if it invades Ukraine, but drew criticism for adding that consequences would depend on whether Russia committed a "minor incursion" or a more severe advance. This episode: White House correspondent Scott Detrow, congressional correspondent Claudia Grisales, and national political correspondent Mara Liasson. Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

The Biden administration laid out his main priorities as the president took office: tackling the pandemic, responding to the climate crisis, addressing racial inequality, and rejuvenating the economy. Over the past few weeks, the NPR Politics Podcast checked in on whether those goals being met.Today we look at racial equity. The Biden administration pledged to center people of color in their hiring and policy decisions. But over the past year other crises took centerstage. How successful were they in delivering for people of color?This episode: White House correspondent Ayesha Rascoe, White House correspondent Scott Detrow, and climate correspondent Jeff Brady.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

The Supreme Court has struck down the Biden administration's vaccine-or-test rule for businesses with more than 100 employees, but allowed a separate mandate for health care workers to stand. Also, Democrats' push to pass voting rights legislation is unraveling, as moderates in the Senate resist any changes to filibuster rules. This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, White House correspondent Tamara Keith, legal affairs correspondent Nina Totenberg, and congressional correspondent Kelsey Snell.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

The idea of another American Civil War might seem outlandish. But as the country diversifies, it's grown more polarized. Today, Americans can't even agree on who won the 2020 election or whether masks prevent the spread of COVID. Researchers say it's not out of the question for these political tensions to boil over. This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, White House correspondent Tamara Keith, and senior editor and correspondent Ron Elving. Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

In an interview with NPR, former President Donald Trump made it clear that he hasn't moved on from his 2020 election loss, and it's causing a rift within the Republican Party. Trump maintains his false claims that the election was stolen from him, and while most Republicans have fallen in line, some desperately want to move on. This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, and national political correspondent Mara Liasson.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

In a fiery speech in Atlanta Tuesday, President Biden urged the Senate to change filibuster rules in order to pass new voting rights protections. But Senate Democrats are divided on filibuster changes, and voting rights advocates say fiery remarks are not enough in the wake of laws passed in 19 states that restrict ballot access.This episode: White House correspondent Scott Detrow, White House correspondent Ayesha Rascoe, and political correspondent Juana Summers.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

The justices are considering whether the federal mandates governing private employers and healthcare staff are constitutional. And Republicans who back Trump's election lies are running for election administration offices across the country.This episode: politics correspondent Juana Summers, labor correspondent Andrea Hsu, senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, and voting and disinformation reporter Miles Parks.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

In a speech from the Capitol one year after the building was attacked, President Biden warned that the United States could become a nation that "accepts political violence as a norm" and allows "partisan election officials to overturn the legally expressed will of the people" if Donald Trump's supporters in the Republican party continue to bolster his election lies.This episode: demographics and culture correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben, congressional reporter Claudia Grisales, and White House correspondent Scott Detrow.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

As the president and his team promise more tests are coming, the omicron variant continues to drive cases to new records. While the latest wave is putting a smaller share of people into the hospital, the sheer number of infections is straining the healthcare system.This episode: demographics and culture correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben, White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez, and health correspondent Allison Aubrey.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Chief Tom Manger says that he is dealing with low morale and high turnover as the force attempts to reinvent itself in the wake of last year's attack on the Capitol. There were more than 9000 threats against members of Congress last year.This episode: demographics and culture correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben, congressional reporter Claudia Grisales, and acting congressional correspondent Deirdre Walsh.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

The sentiment is felt most acutely by Republicans, two-thirds of whom wrongly believe that "voter fraud helped Joe Biden win the 2020 election." That's according to a new NPR/Ipsos poll out Monday. A majority of Republicans and Democrats alike reject political violence, while more than 1 in 5 respondents say violence is sometimes justified to protect democracy or American culture and values. This episode: demographics and culture correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben, national correspondent Joel Rose, and national political correspondent Mara Liasson.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Miles Parks, Juana Summers, and Ayesha Rascoe are joined by Stephen Thompson of NPR Music to discuss their favorite political music of the year.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Miles Parks, Kelsey Snell, and Barbara Sprunt are joined by Aisha Harris of NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast to discuss the year in political television.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

In the latest NPR Politics Book Club, Danielle Kurtzleben talks with journalist Sasha Issenberg whose book The Engagement chronicles the path of marriage equality from a fringe issue to one of the nation's central civil rights fights. His book explores the complex ways that money and disagreements among activists shape political movements in the United States.This episode: demographics and culture correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Rochelle Walensky, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said officials knew there would be a surge from the Omicron variant since early data became available from South Africa. Despite that, COVID-19 tests have been incredibly hard to come by as cases continue to rise.This episode: voting and disinformation reporter Miles Parks, White House correspondent Asma Khalid, and health reporter Pien Huang.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Huma Abedin has worked for Hillary Clinton for a quarter-century. In a new book, Both/And, she discusses being a prominent Muslim woman in American politics, intersecting personal and political crises, and whether the tumultuous final days of the 2016 presidential election distracted Democrats from important political lessons. She speaks with NPR's Asma Khalid.This episode: demographics and culture correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben, White House correspondent Asma Khalid.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

The Biden administration laid out his main priorities as the president took office: tackling the pandemic, responding to the climate crisis, addressing racial inequality, and rejuvenating the economy. Over the next few weeks, the NPR Politics Podcast will check in on whether those goals being met.President Biden's first legislative push was the American Rescue Plan, a roughly $2 trillion economic stimulus plan that expanded help for unemployed workers and issued direct cash payments to millions of people. The pandemic and supply chain issues, though, have proved tenacious. Many workers have seen their nominal wages rise, but persistent inflation has blunted the impact of the gains.This episode: White House correspondent Ayesha Rascoe, White House correspondent Tamara Keith, and chief economics correspondent Scott Horsley.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

The Biden administration laid out his main priorities as the president took office: tackling the pandemic, responding to the climate crisis, addressing racial inequality, and rejuvenating the economy. Over the next few weeks, the NPR Politics Podcast will check in on whether those goals are going.President Biden rejoined the Paris climate agreement and pledged to halve U.S. greenhouse gas pollution from 2005 levels by 2030. But his ambitious goals, which scientists say are necessary to avoid the worst effects of climate change, have been stymied by a coal-state Democrat and constraints on executive power.This episode: White House correspondent Ayesha Rascoe, White House correspondent Scott Detrow, and climate correspondent Jeff Brady.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

The Biden administration laid out his main priorities as he took office: tackling the pandemic, responding to the climate crisis, addressing racial inequality, and rejuvenating the economy. Over the next few weeks, the NPR Politics Podcast will check in on how those goals are going.Building on President Trump's Operation Warp Speed, the Biden administration managed to make vaccines widely-available across the country within a few months of taking office. Convincing everyone to take the vaccine proved a bigger challenge, and now the country is facing another surge of the virus,This episode: White House correspondent Ayesha Rascoe, White House correspondent Tamara Keith, and health correspondent Allison Aubrey.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

In an appearance on Fox News Sunday, the West Virginia Democrat said he would not support the Build Back Better Act, the centerpiece of President Biden's domestic agenda. The announcement, which came after months of wheel-spinning in Congress, dooms legislation that Biden says would allow the U.S. to curb the climate crisis and better support working families. Read more: Manchin says Build Back Better's climate measures are risky. That's not true.This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, congressional correspondent Kelsey Snell, and acting congressional correspondent Deirdre Walsh.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

In an appearance on Fox News Sunday, the West Virginia Democrat said he would not support the Build Back Better Act, the centerpiece of President Biden's domestic agenda. The announcement, which came after months of wheel-spinning in Congress, dooms legislation that Biden says would allow the U.S. to curb the climate crisis and better support working families. Read more: Manchin says Build Back Better's climate measures are risky. That's not true.This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, congressional correspondent Kelsey Snell, and acting congressional correspondent Deirdre Walsh.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

In this episode we discuss the CIPT awards and the splash Rare made this year by being nominated in several categories and winning 1 with Sea of Thieves. Rare's approach to developing a game for everyone is really getting noticed in the industry with their innovations in accessibility. I also discuss my opinions on the Sea of Thieves Development cycle and based on what Mike Chapman has hinted at, how far in the future the team has already started working on what's next in Sea of Thieves.What is CIPT? https://caniplaythat.com/CHARITY DONATIONS: https://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.participant&participantID=450876Deathwish Coffee 15% first order: https://tinyurl.com/DavCoffeeHumble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/?partner=davrim&charity=144206=================================================================

President Biden acknowledged Thursday that the centerpiece of his agenda, a nearly-two trillion dollar social programs package known as the Build Back Better Act, won't pass the Senate before Christmas as Democrats had hoped. West Virginia Democrat Joe Manchin is a key holdout. But Congress was able to fund the government and raise the debt ceiling, despite doubts that they could reach consensus.And: is there a rising workers' and unionization movement in the United States? Many low-income workers have seen a sharp increase in their pay during the pandemic, though an increase in the cost of goods stemming from an overloaded supply chain has softened the impact of the pay jump. This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, White House correspondent Asma Khalid, congressional correspondent Kelsey Snell, and business correspondent Alina Selyukh.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

Following in the footsteps of Lucy McBath, a Georgia Democrat who won a seat in the House of Representatives after her son was shot and killed, gun control activists across the country are training to run for office at the local, state, and federal level. They face an entrenched political climate that has doomed substantive action on the issue for decades.This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, politics correspondent Juana Summers, and senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy is feeling hopeful about the midterms: President Biden's approval numbers are low and inflation is at least temporarily high. But some Republican representatives are worried their peers are too focused on Trump-style bomb-throwing and jeers to stick to a uniform, policy-focused campaign message. This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, congressional correspondent Kelsey Snell, and acting congressional correspondent Deirdre Walsh.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

It's the Holidays and people are on vacation and needing things to do when not with family. This is prime time for games to release large content updates to make sure new players come check out the game and other players don't drift to other games. I look at the first week of season 5 and identify why I think, though a needed season, was not released at the right time of year and will hurt Sea of Thieves over the Holidays. I'll also dive into what the community is saying about Season 5, some love it, others hate it. What do I think?CHARITY DONATIONS: https://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.participant&participantID=450876Deathwish Coffee 15% first order: https://tinyurl.com/DavCoffeeHumble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/?partner=davrim&charity=144206=================================================================

Joe Biden pledged ambitious criminal justice reforms as a candidate, but has taken few steps during his time in office to deliver them. And the FBI says diversifying its special agent ranks is a top priority, but its history of abuses during the civil rights era is a major recruitment hurdle.This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson, and justice correspondent Ryan Lucas.Connect:Email the show at nprpolitics@npr.orgJoin the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.

In this episode I review my unfortunate end to Season 4 due to Server Stability. I then preview Sea of Thieves Season 5 looking at the media rare released leading up to the release and the patch notes. Mike Chapman said this season is full of fun features with no real purpose, I look at that concept and I talk about my take on each and does this season have no real purpose or is this one of the best Seasons Sea of Thieves has returned. We return to the comfy mattress and we do the Good, the Bad and the "What the F" in the recent patch notes.Sea of Thieves Patch notes: https://www.seaofthieves.com/release-notesCHARITY DONATIONS: https://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.participant&participantID=450876Deathwish Coffee 15% first order: https://tinyurl.com/DavCoffeeHumble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/?partner=davrim&charity=144206=================================================================

In this episode I revisit the Official Sea of Thieves Podcast and point out the blatant lie Rare tells us regarding the Halo infinite launch and the Cosmetics coming for it. We look at the Madrinas coffee in game promo partnership and the Thanksgiving event and how Rare's choice on event tasks encourages the same toxic behavior they claim to be trying to get out of Sea of Thieves. With all the issues Rare has, they are an Industry leader in many regards. One of these leading initiatives is Sea of Thieves is being designed and built for anyone regardless of exceptionality or disability. It is fantastic and I discuss the recent Sea of Thieves Podcast and the accessibility culture Sea of Thieves has to make sure their game is playable by all.Xander Ashwell - Rare's Director of Accessibility and User Experience: https://twitter.com/xanderashwellhttps://twitter.com/xanderashwell/status/1460934791340175367Madrinas Coffee in game promo:  https://madrinascoffee.com/products/dark-chocolate-salted-caramel-cold-brew-coffee?variant=39461402607677CHARITY DONATIONS: https://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.participant&participantID=450876Deathwish Coffee 15% first order: https://tinyurl.com/DavCoffeeHumble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/?partner=davrim&charity=144206=================================================================

We got the Official Sea of Thieves podcast release and in it, we didn't get much concrete announcements but A LOT of teasers. Halo shipset? Season 5 will it be a disappointment? and HUGE Sea of Thieves Merch news. Also I discuss the most recent Sea of Thieves patch notes and RAGE about one of the items which Rare felt needed changed even though they have so many bugs and exploits which are higher priorities.Sea of Thieves Patch Notes: https://www.seaofthieves.com/release-notes CHARITY DONATIONS: https://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.participant&participantID=450876Deathwish Coffee 15% first order: https://tinyurl.com/DavCoffeeHumble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/?partner=davrim&charity=144206=================================================================

Let's cut to the chase - So can one still do the things that he love while still being involved in real estate investment? Well the answer is a resounding Y-E-S! And Mark Hentemann who John Brackett sits down with today is the concrete proof! Mark is an Emmy Award nominated writer/producer who has written for David Letterman, Family Guy, and created shows for Fox and MTV. He has been investing in multifamily since 2000, building a personal portfolio of 14 Los Angeles apartment buildings. After honing his skills for a decade, achieving success in both good markets and bad, Mark started Quantum Capital RE, and is its principal. Get comfy, and grab some pen and paper and listen as Mark talks about his success in real estate investing while still doing the very thing that he is in love with - writing. Episode Highlights: Mark's journey from being a TV show writer to a real estate investor Why choose to invest in real estate Criteria in finding a great investment property How do real estate investment strategies change based on demographics Mark talks about barriers that an investor can encounter when buying and scaling up Cancelling contracts that are already put in place Mark's advice to those interested in the world of real estate investment Golden Nugget: Wall Street has the best marketing but worst return while real estate has the worst marketing but best return Connect: Email  LinkedIn  Quantum Capital Website  About Our Guest: Mark Hentemann is an Emmy-nominated writer/producer and an original writer on “Family Guy”. He's also a built a $90 million multifamily portfolio in Los Angeles and Texas. After struggling as a starving artist, Mark used his first script payments in 2000 to buy a duplex in Los Angeles as a hedge against the uncertainties of an entertainment career. Real estate became a passionate side-hustle, and Mark founded Quantum Capital, which invests in and syndicates value-add multifamily properties in major cities. He also hosts the Wild West Real Estate Podcast. Mark also continues to write, produce and do voices on Family Guy. He's created shows for Fox and MTV, written for David Letterman, worked on the “Ted” movies and is currently writing a reboot of “The Naked Gun”. He's been a guest on Bigger Pockets, Joe Fairless, Michael Blank, Jake & Gino podcasts, as well as many others. Mark's mission is to help people achieve financial freedom through real estate so they don't have to become television writers. --- Did you enjoy today's episode? Please click here to leave a review for The We Build Great Apartment Communities. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast app to get notified when a new episode comes out! Do you know someone who might enjoy this episode? Share this episode to inspire and empower! Connect with John Brackett and We Build Great Apartment Communities Instagram @webuildgreatcommunities Facebook @buildingreatcommunities LinkedIn @brackettjohn Website www.fidelitybps.com Subscribe to The We Build Great Apartment Communities Apple Podcasts Spotify Google Podcasts Do you think you would be a great fit for the show? Apply to be a guest by clicking . Fidelity Business Partners, Inc. 6965 El Camino Real Suite 105-190 Carlsbad, CA 92009 D: 760-301-5311 F: 760-987-6065

Sea of Thieves is full of secrets and Easter Eggs. In this episode I take a look at a new Easter Egg by using Wanda's Spy glass. I will show you how to get the $600 Xbox Series X or Xbox Series S Duke Ship Cosmetics on PC and discuss the future of Xbox support for Sea of Thieves. Also we return to Sea of Thieves Tips and tricks with Davrim as I discuss Kegs in the crows nest and sail management on the sloop, galleon and brigantine. All this AND MORE this week, on Pirate Talk Radio.Captain Blubber: https://www.youtube.com/user/KsessionNLMMCHARITY DONATIONS: https://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.participant&participantID=450876Deathwish Coffee 15% first order: https://tinyurl.com/DavCoffeeHumble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/?partner=davrim&charity=144206=================================================================

I continue the discussion about player experience through Rare's messaging. I also reveal an experiment I did with the current event and how horrible my experience was but how BROKEN Alliance Servers are. I argue Rare is turning Sea of Thieve's into an adventure game with ships, instead of a pirate game and I explain how their updates, content and events show this. I provide suggestions on how Sea of Thieves needs to change course to bring Pirates back into the game and leave the Alliances behind.CHARITY DONATIONS: https://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.participant&participantID=450876Deathwish Coffee 15% first order: https://tinyurl.com/DavCoffeeHumble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/?partner=davrim&charity=144206=================================================================

Let's discuss player experience. I often forget about new players as I haven't been one for some time. In this episode I look at both new and veteran player experience and how Rare is effecting it through a wheel that keeps turning regardless of how many people come in or jump ship. How can we break the wheel and build a great player experience for new and existing players for the next 5+ years?CHARITY DONATIONS: https://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.participant&participantID=450876Deathwish Coffee 15% first order: https://tinyurl.com/DavCoffeeHumble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/?partner=davrim&charity=144206=================================================================

I talk about my personal play experience of Season 4 and where I feel the strengths and weaknesses of this Season are. I go through the news, including Twitch Drops and new Spooky Emporium items to get your ready for Halloween! I then look at what the community has been saying about Season 4. Surprisingly I disagree with the fire and torch approach I'm seeing on Social Media, and though it has a base, it isn't as bad as they say. The issue causing this outcry is coming from another source, and I'll tell you what that is. CHARITY DONATIONS: https://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.participant&participantID=450876Deathwish Coffee 15% first order: https://tinyurl.com/DavCoffeeHumble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/?partner=davrim&charity=144206=================================================================

Captain Falcore, a content pillar of the Sea of Thieves Community released a video on Sept 14th introducing a new concept "Expeditions" which would be a way for Rare to expand the map while still supporting old hardware like the XBOX one. I look at the concepts of this video and expand on how this system could also bring in the Arena!Captain Falcore's YouTube: www.youtube.com/c/CaptainFalcoreCHARITY DONATIONS: https://www.extra-life.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donordrive.participant&participantID=450876Deathwish Coffee 15% first order: https://tinyurl.com/DavCoffeeHumble Bundle: https://www.humblebundle.com/?partner=davrim&charity=144206=================================================================

Join me on the Show!   Show Notes   Hello Everyone and welcome to the Rogue Learner podcast. My name is Jenna Reich and I am the host of this show. Today is going to be a quick episode where I may ramble. I'll try to keep it relevant to SDE, but with no promises! The first thing I want to share is a bit about my daughter's experience so far going back to the school system and my son's new opportunities after moving Stateside. And since I'm doing a solo show, I also want to share a bit about my intersection between financial and educational freedom. For us, they are inextricably linked so I feel compelled to share how one leads to the other and vice versa - together they provide us with a powerful gateway to liberation. Essentially any time you rely on an outside entity or person to fulfill your most basic needs, you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position.  So, let's begin with my daughter. For those of you new to the podcast or listening to the show out of order, I'll give you a little of our backstory . We started unschooling at the beginning of the pandemic and at that time we lived in England. In the UK, there were strict lockdowns put in place almost immediately after we arrived and we spent close to 6 months in isolation. As you can probably guess, my kids weren't able to experience unschooling as it should be, nor did they have the opportunity to make friends and build community. Both of which are essential to SDE, as you know from listening to my episodes with Peter Gray on the 6 optimizing conditions for SDE. That was episode 13 and 14 of the podcast. Anyway, we came to the conclusion as a family that the move to England was terribly timed and we needed to move back to a place where we had a support system already in place. We would have likely moved back to Germany, where we had been living for 6 years, but sadly unschooling and homeschooling are illegal there and we were not interested in rejoining the German school system. If you don't know much about the German school system, let's just suffice it to say that it's not changed since its inception. None of us were keen on that and alternative schools were sparse where we lived. We ultimately decided to move back to the States, where we had been living prior to our time in Germany. Our son, who attends a global online school for self-directed learners, was pretty content with his schedule and talking with friends over Zoom calls and through video-gaming. However, it was evident that this type of learning environment, which we expect will continue for months and months, was not only less than ideal for our daughter, but it was making her sick. She was not living a full life and we knew it needed to change immediately. When we talked with her about it, she asked to go back to school and of course we supported her in that decision and agreed that being with people on a daily basis is necessary for her. There aren't any self-directed learning centers in our area. I know other people must be in a similar situation, so I'm sharing this here in the off chance someone needs to hear this right now. Although I am completely aware of the fact that schools are oppressive and not well geared for original thought or creativity, I think parents need to evaluate decisions based on the overall well-being of their child. For us, and this may differ from you, my child's mental health is far more important to me than the constant advocacy needed to fight for my children's liberation while they're in school. In fact, the more I read about emotional wellbeing and how it plays a significant role in one's physical health, the more I realize that my #1 priority will always be emotional health. For some, that may mean keeping your child as far from a school as possible, but for others that may mean participating in some “school-like” settings and partnering with your child as they navigate the messed up systems in our society.   Let's get to my daughter's experience so far - the positives are that she has made many friends, she's been able to express herself, she's  felt successful, she's feeling challenged too, and she gets plenty of exercise. She also feels a sense of belonging. The negatives are that we are bound to a schedule, we have to pack a lunch everyday and it limits the food she can eat, she is being influenced by friends and teachers, some of which I can tell are oppressive and stereotypical beliefs and propaganda. I'm absolutely aware that there'd be more awareness and respect in these areas if she were to attend a self directed learning center or sudbury school, but we are working with what's available to us. Luckily, we found a school with small class sizes, a remarkable community feel, and one with familiar faces.   My plan of action to combat this is through honest dialog and by challenging those beliefs and ideals together in our home conversations. “Why do you think that?” is a great opening question. Giving kids the opportunity to think about their beliefs and defend them is a great way to open up dialog. Our most important job is keeping her close, loving her fiercely and maintaining healthy attachment.   Two of my favorite authors who write about attachment and psychology are Gabor Mate and Gordon Neufeld.   In his book, When the Body Says No by Gabor Maté writes,    “Well-self-regulated people are the most capable of interacting fruitfully with others in a community and of nurturing children who will also grow into self-regulated adults. Anything that interferes with that natural agenda threatens the organism's chances for long-term survival. Almost from the beginning of life we see a tension between the complementary needs for security and for autonomy. Development requires a gradual and age-appropriate shift from security needs toward the drive for autonomy, from attachment to individuation. Neither is ever completely lost, and neither is meant to predominate at the expense of the other.   Autonomy, however, needs to be exercised in a way that does not disrupt the social relationships on which survival also depends, whether with emotional intimates or with important others --- employers, fellow workers, social authority figures. The less the emotional capacity for self-regulation develops during infancy and childhood, the more the adult depends on relationships to maintain homeostasis. The greater the dependence, the greater the threat when those relationships are lost or become insecure. Thus, the vulnerability to subjective and physiological stress will be proportionate to the degree of emotional dependence.   I'm guessing you're listening to this show because you want to support our societal shift in how we treat children because you, too, believe that their emotional wellbeing is going to determine the society we grow into. If you're interested in learning more about childhood experiences and how they affect your health later on, I encourage you to read the whole book. It's an eye-opening read and gives credence to the unschooling lifestyle - one that seeks a balance between attachment and autonomy.  As Gordon Neufeld says in his book, “Hold Onto Your Kids”, Attachment is both a shield and a sword.”    He also says,    “The time we as parents and educators spend trying to teach our children social tolerance, acceptance, and etiquette would be much better invested in cultivating a connection with them. Children nurtured in traditional hierarchies of attachment are not nearly as susceptible to the spontaneous forces of tribalization. The social values we wish to inculcate can be transmitted only across existing lines of attachment.”    Connection is where it's at. We are paying close attention to our relationship. At the moment, we see her thriving and our connection is strong which makes us all very happy. If that ever changes, we will discuss it with her and decide what to do from there.    As for my son's experience at home; he's still happy learning through clubs, bootcamps and playing video games. He watches a lot of YouTube as well. He started volunteering at our daughter's school, helping out in the Pokemon club. In the club, he helps the other kids build their decks, calculate their damage, and explains the rules. He LOVES it! He'll be trying out karate at the end of the month, but we've got a few back-up plans if he doesn't enjoy it, like recreational swimming, tennis or handball, all of which he enjoys a lot. The one other thing we'll be adding to his learning experiences is spending some time at my dad's hardware store once a month, helping out as needed. He also hopes to build his own gaming PC with my dad's help.    Just as I mentioned in previous episodes, this journey never stagnates. We are always ebbing and flowing and making small or big adjustments as needed, which is a great segue into the other topic I wanted to talk about briefly. The ability to make big changes in our lives has been a result of some intense effort on our part.   For over 3 years now, my husband and I have been working toward financial independence and it's opened our world to incredible opportunities. Although we aren't there yet (not even halfway), having financial security has provided us with the freedom to make some drastic changes in our lives. In order to live the lifestyle that most aligns with our values (unschooling included), we've had to change our mindset about money. Just a few years ago, we were both working full time and were living that 9-5, M-F kind of life - ya know, keeping up with the Joneses. Even though we mostly enjoyed our jobs, we realized most of what we earned, we spent on things that didn't truly matter much to us at all. You know, new cars, better housing, new furniture, better technology, more vacations and fancier hotels. The more we made, the more we spent. I came upon a podcast at the end of 2017, that completely changed our lives called Choose FI. Essentially, and I'm really over simplifying this for today's episode, but what they discuss on the podcast is how to save enough money so that if you didn't want to work anymore, you wouldn't have to. That sounded pretty dope to me, so I started listening and listening and listening. We were on a road trip to Italy and we had a 13 hour car ride ahead, so I tuned in that whole drive there and back. Over 100 episodes later and after regurgitating everything I learned to my husband, we began making some pretty drastic changes to our lives so that we could begin saving more than we spent. I quit teaching, we bought a house way below our means and stopped spending money on things we didn't value. I became so passionate about it and was learning fast. Because it was so relevant to my life  and my goals, I was willing to spend hours devoted to acquiring more information. I thought of nothing else. I read every book I could get my hands on. I mean, I learned about finance, something I thought I could never wrap my head around. And why? Because I wanted that freedom from the daily grind. I wanted to retire early with my husband and earn money doing things we loved - make our own schedules and stick it to the man. I wanted to make my own rules about what is important to me and what I want to spend money on. Guys, I went Rogue before I went Rogue!    Something I've discussed at nauseum on this show is how powerful self directed learning is.  If you are motivated to learn something, by golly you'll learn it! Anyway, fast forward to today and my husband and I are well on our way to early retirement. We don't have a definite end date, because we are taking it one year at a time and adjusting our spending as our lives require it. For example, the move back to the States obviously wasn't planned in our budget, but we made the decision based on our needs and feel so much freedom in knowing that if something isn't working for us, we have the ability to change it. We don't rely on that next paycheck. We have space to breathe. I want that for you all too. It will open up doors for you and your family.    The reason I tell you all this is because I know there are people out there thinking that this lifestyle isn't accessible to them for financial reasons, but I challenge you to reconsider. Are there things in your life you spend money on that you could live without? Is there a way to reduce your spending on housing, car, or food? Those are the three largest expenditures for most households and reducing that spending can hugely affect your savings rate. The other reason I wanted to share this is because personal finance sounded really scary to me. I thought it was too complicated for women to understand! I can't even believe I'm saying that now because I actually feel comfortable teaching others about it and I have shared my knowledge with friends and family who have benefitted from it. So, yeah, self-directed learning works. You can learn anything and so can your kids.    I have an interview coming up soon with a dad who is financially independent and I'm seeing a huge number of families on the path to FI or already there, who also choose to homeschool/unschool or worldschool. I notice that our type of people are looking for ways they can improve their lives and break free from conventional thought. With that said, I hope to bring you more interviews with people who have all of this in common. That is, if you want it! Let me know in the comments or come visit me on Instagram. You can also email me to let me know your thoughts at contact.roguelearner@gmail.com.    Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show   Hold Onto Your Kids, by Gordon Neufeld When the Body Says No by Gabor Maté Choose FI Podcast Episode 13 and 14 with Dr. Peter Gray   Ways to Connect Email me: contact.roguelearner@gmail.com Facebook  Instagram Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038 Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner

JOIN ME ON THE SHOW!!!   Guest    Megan   IG @theunschoolfiles www.theunschoolfiles.com   I'm a mama + unschooler from Austin Tx - kiddos are 10, 12 &15 i parent from the heart, and unschool just the same. the liberation of all people is the reason, for me - once I understood how oppressive school was, there was no stopping what came next. sometimes I podcast about it :)   Show Notes   Hi Everyone and welcome back to the Rogue Learner podcast, I'm Jenna Reich. Every other week, I interview researchers, educators, entrepreneurs and families about their experiences with self directed learning. The off-weeks, I co host my show with a listener and we focus our attention on the previous podcast episode and share our biggest takeaways from it.    This week, I have a very special guest co host joining me on the show. Meghan is an unschooling mother of three and the podcast host of The Unschool Files. She has interviewed a number of amazing guests too and I've had the pleasure to get to know her and talk with her over Zoom. Go ahead and stop listening right now to subscribe to her show. I'll wait right here!   We'll be talking about our takeaways from last week's episode with Summer, a grown unschooler who shared how her life without school was fulfilling and how her relationships were strong. If you subscribe to conventional thinking (which I'm guessing you don't if you're listening to this show), you'll find yourself questioning everything! She challenges those ideas and provides us with some incredible ways to reflect and process our thoughts about life. If you haven't listened to that episode yet, it was number 25. FYI, I always share the links and resources mentioned during the episode in the show notes so no need to write anything down.    Before we get started, I have a couple of announcements to share. Firstly, this podcast is being listened to in 17 countries at the time of recording and I just want to thank each and every one of you for taking the time to tune in. I value your time and I hope I am doing a good job of bringing you content that's informative, relevant, and concise. Also, we had our first book winner this week! For every 5 reviews I get on Apple podcasts, I give away 1 free book. In order to enter the giveaway, all you  need to do is send me a quick email saying what screen name you left the review under. It was a great pleasure to send off a copy of Changing Our Minds by Naomi Fisher to a listener this week!    Last thing before we begin today's show, please subscribe to the Rogue Leaner YouTube channel. I'll be uploading all of the episodes there and am preparing to add a variety of content there that will not be on the podcast. If you're interested in getting a more in-depth look at our unschooling lifestyle, you'll want to head over there!    Okay, let's get on with the show shall we. Enjoy!   Jenna asks Meghan to share a bit about her journey into unschooling and how she got into podcasting. Meghan says she's a mama of three, 10, 12 and 15. Her 10 year old has never been to school but she pulled her oldest out of school when he was in 3rd grade. She describes their unschooling as an ever-evolving emergent practice. She dabbles in podcasting over at The Unschool Files as and when she has the time.    Jenna says she knows the difficulty in balancing podcasting and unschooling because they both take up a lot of time. Meghan reminisces a bit on how unschooling can take up many days at a time as you're living life with community - the days sort of blend together. Jenna explains how her and her family haven't actually experienced that side of unschooling yet due to the constraints of lockdowns and the pandemic. She had initially wanted to take the kids on a trip around Europe, but they found themselves isolated instead. Meghan reassures her that the days will come and they aren't too far away, at least she hopes.    Jenna asks Meghan to kick off the show with her first take away from Episode 25 with Summer. Meghan says for her, what really stood out was that there are so many interpretations of unschooling and the idea that the word ‘unschooling' is sort of on trial -  people want to scrap the word altogether.    Jenna adds that unschooling is based on each family's personal values, so there is no playbook. There is no guide to tell you exactly how it should look in your home. It's going to vary wildly depending on the individuals in your home. You don't choose unschooling if you want precise guidelines or something to follow. Jenna says she's considered mentoring or coaching in the future, but she doesn't really know how that would work because what works for her family may not work for another family.    Meghan agrees, she sees many parents looking for that support. She knows not everyone gains enough confidence by just researching it on the internet. But she is curious to know how a mentor or coach could guide a family since you'd really have to have a deep understanding of the complexities of the relationships within the family.    Jenna says she could see it being useful as an accountability check in or just overall support when you've had a lousy day or your confidence is waning. You could get ideas on ways to fix problems and have someone there to reassure you when you inevitably make mistakes. Meghan adds they could certainly encourage and cheer you on. She still wonders what is being taken away from those kinds of mentorships. Are parents being asked to examine the balance of power in their homes? Sharing power is so critical to unschooling and self-directed learning. Parents would need to have an intersectional look at what unschooling can do so we can get rid of some of these problems in our society that could go away by liberating everyone.    Jenna adds that Summer talked about some questions parents can ask themselves which are helpful when you're challenging your thoughts. She said, “What response was I trying to elicit? When fear comes up, where did I get the idea? Where did it come up? Why do I believe it? Is it true for me? Jenna says she uses these questions all day long, even though she admits that she isn't perfect and there are still times where she makes mistakes and has to go back and apologize.    She shares an example of when she really needed to ask herself whether she was operating from fear or power over when she noticed her son wasn't leaving his room and getting any exercise. She thought about it for 24 hours before deciding that she truly does have a concern about his health and that she needed to approach him about her concerns. They are considering karate, but Jenna also had to stop herself from demanding a solution right away. Her son wants to take it slower and try one thing out at a time before making a decision.    Meghan says the pandemic has brought on really special circumstances when it comes to health and safety. They're finding it more challenging and are forced to occasionally play the parent power card when it comes to things that could be dangerous. The conversation has to be really honest. Meghan says you can tell your kids that you don't want to have control over this and you want them to make these decisions for themself. You want them to be sovereign in their decision making, however if you're noticing that there is a health or safety concern you can make suggestions.    Power is rooted in colonialism, says Meghan. It's rooted in systemic racism and spreading American Puritan beliefs. And we've been convinced that this is the only way to live. It's a lie and there's another way to live. Meghan adds that we're all holding ourselves hostage within this paradigm and we can walk away.    Jenna adds that Summer pointed out how all of our beliefs and societal norms are just made up. The curriculum, the American dream, the 9-5 is all just made up. We could have been following completely different norms and we just go along with it because we've always done it. We could have included anything in the curriculum and we would have just accepted it and learned it because that's what we're meant to do.    Meghan says, yeah, we'd just be going along. It has so many angles. She says she knows that there are people who can't walk away from the schooled path though, due to the fact that they have special needs they rely on from the school system. For example, students who are neurodiverse, deaf, blind, etc. Jenna points out that there are also people who don't have any problems in the school system, and therefore they have a degree of privilege in being able to use public education without being negatively impacted.   Meghan shares that a listener she often talks with has a child with hearing and wants to be referred to a school for the deaf, but the local public school says she can manage just fine there (even though that isn't the case) and won't give her the referral - they are essentially acting as a gatekeeper. People then feel lost and unsupported. Meghan says she tries to be careful when talking about unschooling and all the things it can do for us because she knows there are people out there that just don't have the access to it or can't for whatever reason.    Jenna points out that living an unschooling lifestyle still has enormous benefits, even if you're forced to choose a public education. Having respectful, democratic, power balance in the home percolates down and changes the way kids interact in the world. Jenna says she notices the difference in how her children perceive the world from before unschooling and after. She says for her, unschooling goes beyond academics and is more of a lifestyle.   Meghan defines unschooling as living without oppressive relationships, ideally without forced academics but she thinks that's negotiable. Parents can talk with their kids about the oppressive systems we are subjected to and learn how to advocate for themselves and ask good questions.   Jenna agrees and adds that parents can also advocate for their children within those oppressive systems too. Jenna adds that with her own daughter, she was able to talk very openly and honestly with the teacher to ensure that her daughter's wellbeing is the priority. In her experience, the teacher was really receptive.    Meghan points out that there will be challenges, having to maneuver dynamics that are not similar to your own family's mutually consensual relationships vs. the top-down hierarchical place, but that doesn't mean you can't go into an hierarchical place and meet the moment there if it's desired by the individual.    Jenna shares how her daughter noticed a sexist remark in her first week of school from one of the teachers, and it's good to see that she is noticing those things and forming opinions about that at such a young age. Meghan laughs and says she thinks Jenna's daughter is going to do just fine!   Meghan's second take away from the episode with Summer was that she was raised to always trust herself. Meghan says she tried to imagine if she felt like her children felt the same way, and she thinks they do. Summer talked about how she was never explicitly told that she could trust herself, it was more in the way she was treated - she was in charge, she was a sovereign person, she could make choices for herself.    A quote that stood out to Jenna was when Summer said that “a ‘good education' doesn't have anything to do with joy, passion, love, health, wellness, and happiness.” Meghan and Jenna ask in unison, “what is the point?” Why even be in this world if there aren't any of those things. Meghan takes it further by asking what is the point in wealth if you can't ever spend it, what's the point in climbing the corporate ladder if you can't have a family if you want one or travel or start a side business, or have a stand at the farmer's market on the weekend? We're supposed to be living, not just working. Productivity is not the natural state of a human being. She says she thinks we've learned to be productive in order to survive, and she doesn't discount the very real realities of being productive in order to pay the bills and travel. We have to be careful not to slip into “bourgeoisie” unschooling where you think you're in an elite club and ‘above' school. It can be a slippery slope.     Jenna shares how she didn't want to box herself in when she created this podcast. She knew that SDE would be much more inclusive and she never wanted to sound high and mighty or dogmatic. She laughs about how she now has a daughter in public school so it's probably best she didn't do a podcast dedicated solely to unschooling.    Meghan says that she thinks where Summer was coming from is, if relationship and partnership come first, even if it's outside of the parent child relationship, if the space the children are raised in is not oppressive, it can still be unschooling.    Jenna says that people who claim that unschooling doesn't work for them may truly be struggling with trust, because unschooling can't not work since it's principles are defined by everyone getting their needs met. Those parents may just need more time deschooling in order to fully trust the process. They may be operating from fear. Meghan adds that power is really hard to let go of.   Jenna admits that she was a control-seeking person before she started her unschooling journey and it caused her to feel anger when someone would cancel plans or anything happened that was out of her control. With the unschooling lens, she is able to recognize those situations of control-seeking and be empathetic to the needs of others. Her daughter recently objected to a snuggle and Jenna (although somewhat saddened by it) felt proud  of her daughter's ability to set boundaries with someone she loves and cares about. Jenna says she still struggles to set boundaries with people as an adult.  Meghan points out that on the flip-side of that boundary discussion, some absolutists in unschooling may use their boundaries as an excuse to be unkind. I think you start to lose some control over those boundaries when they become so inconvenient to everyone else around you. You may notice that fewer people will want to hang out with you.    Jenna quotes Summer, “Any time someone's freedoms are being sacrificed for another person's freedom, then it's not true freedom. She says she's all for boundaries but we need to be respectful of where they overlap with other people's freedom.    Meghan brings up the part in Summer's interview where she talked about her mom not wanting to buy factory-farmed meat for her kids and not having a television. She says this can be a really tricky subject. Jenna adds that her family is vegan and in her family they've had to make a few boundaries when it comes to meat, like she won't prepare it, but she doesn't mind buying her son a burger. It's really up to the family and the individuals to decide what their boundaries are and how they can meet everyone's needs.    Meghan talks about her experiences with food. They had food issues in the family. Her family moved to Japan though and she remembers before that move, she was able to be very selective about what her family would eat, particularly no fast food. It was much more difficult to eat that way in a foreign country. She even remembers a time, which she is ashamed about now, where she got super frustrated when someone fed her kids fast food. At the time, she was very righteous in what she felt about food. Living in a foreign country changed her perspective for many reasons and she found herself in line at McDonalds one day with her kids. Her daughter looked up at her and asked if it's okay that they eat it now. It was a really pivotal moment for her because she realized just how much control she had over the types of foods her kids had access to and the types of people they met up with. It was an explosive moment for her where she realized she had been controlling things for so long. She said at the time she had been listening to Akilah's podcast and she felt like her unschooling was fake because she was controlling all of the inputs.    Jenna says that in her episode with Naomi Fisher she talked about the inability of parents to release control of everything in their children's lives because in some small way, we are always controlling their environments. Jenna says she thinks the best way to navigate that is to be aware of it and limit it as much as possible. Meghan says everyone has different levels of comfort in what they're willing to let go of control in. Meghan adds a point Summer talked about; we all need to keep asking why - why am I doing that? Who am I leaving out? Who doesn't have access to this? What is being left behind when I reject this idea and move onto this other idea. It's challenging.    Jenna reiterates, this is your own. Everyone's needs! Meghan says it's an emergent practice. Our lives change, people change, our circumstances change. We need to continue evolving in unschooling. Meghan says she loved the point Summer made about how hard it is to unlearn the beliefs we've developed about yourself compared to learning math, for example. Summer had said, if you take care of the relationship and the connection and your child's emotional and psychological wellbeing, the academic learning will take care of itself - it doesn't need you to manage it.    Most of us learn negative things about ourselves, Jenna says. It's an accumulation of negative experiences throughout childhood. We try to limit that with unschooling. Meghan adds that those stories about ourselves are pretty solid by the time we're adults. The goal then is to surround your children with people who are invested in them and whom your children are also invested in. You can do that when you break away from oppressive relationships because when that's not there anymore, we don't have this need to hold power over and control over, you're all free. And when everyone's free and everyone's needs are being met, there's really not a lot that can go wrong there.    Jenna says that her giving up control really elevated her relationship with her husband. They both feel supported in their interests and hobbies and feel free to pursue their passions. It makes everyone much happier. It's a byproduct she hadn't originally thought about when deciding to unschool since her focus was more on her children and the impact it would have on their lives.  Deschooling is where it's at, says Meghan. We are the real problem, us parents. Jenna says that it's becoming so apparent to her that trust, respect and connection are the foundation of unschooling. Everything else just seems to work out.  It's such a simple concept, but one of the hardest hurdles to overcome without continual deschooling.  Meghan agrees saying all other things are a byproduct of the deschooling process. Deschooling is for everyone. The colonial mindset is perverted and we have the opportunity to change that through our relationships with our partners and our kids.    Meghan asks Jenna what she meant by wanting to deschool longer before taking her kids out of school - what would that have looked like for her? Jenna says that's a really good question and basically, she thinks she pulled them out before she really trusted the process which made the transition turbulent and confusing. She wishes she would have waited until she could handle her fear and completely throw out the academic learning for a while. She rushed things and ended up trying to recreate school at home.    Meghan thinks it's better to pull kids out right away, so they aren't continually subjected to the oppressive system. She says the deschooling can happen together and parents can be really honest with their kids about what they are doing and why. They can tell them that they don't know exactly what they are doing! Kids are really receptive to honesty. Jenna thinks it would be impossible to have that experience though, if the parent is still having major doubts about whether it's going to work for them.    Jenna asks Meghan as a wrap-up question; what does deschooling mean to you and do you think there's a point when you feel prepared for unschooling? Meghan says she doesn't think there is ever a time when you are prepared for unschooling - you can't deschool ‘enough' to prepare. It's kind of like coming up with a perfect time to have kids. There's always something that could be done more. Unschooling will crack you wide open. The idea of letting go of this entire formula for life and saying, not only am I going to reject that formula but I'm gonna trust that this process that is not laid out, has no rubrik or framework other than just being in non-oppressive relationships with other people and non-forced and coerced academics and just hold on for the ride, it's hard work to lean into that trust. If you wait, the stories your kids are developing about themselves are still carrying on. She thinks pulling them away from that and deschooling together is a great way to start. Be honest with your kids, because honest parenting leads to freedom. We need to liberate ourselves from these oppressive ways of thinking and realize there's not just one way to live. There's a lot of ways to live.    Jenna pushes back on that a little because in her experience, she thinks because her kids were doing okay in the system, it would have been really advantageous for her to wait until she really trusted in the process. She would have been able to completely disregard all academic learning. Meghan says that parents need to be prepared for that - they need to be okay taking a long break from any academics. She encourages parents to sit down with their kids and pick a time frame on the calendar of when they will not be doing any kind of schooled learning, where you'll all just hang out and have fun.   Meghan says, when you mess up you can apologize and let your children present their grievances. They may need to let that out. It could help you settle any turbulent moments that have come up.    Jenna says she feels like they're in a good place now. She tries to give herself a little credit, seeing how their entire unschooling time has been during a pandemic and the things she'd imagined they would do together have all been canceled. In fact, they've spent a good majority of their time in lockdowns.    Jenna thinks this might also depend on the family - when to pull the kids out of school. Perhaps this will depend on the circumstances, the family, and a whole slew of other variables.    Meghan adds that every parent has a different language they use with their children, but honesty is helpful when talking with kids because kids are so gracious. All they really want is a close, connected relationship. Accepting when you're wrong is really important. If you can't be told that you're wrong, SDE won't be very successful because kids will call you out when you are inconsistent, don't make sense, or when something is not adding up.  Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show   Rogue Learner YouTube Channel Rogue Learner Podcast Episode 25 with Summer Meghan - The Unschool Files Akilah Richards - Raising Free People Podcast Free Resources for Homeschoolers Episode 11 and 12 with Naomi Fisher Changing Our Minds by Naomi Fisher   Ways to Connect Email me: contact.roguelearner@gmail.com Facebook  Instagram Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038 Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner

  Join me on the Show! Leave a Voicemail! Guest  Summer   FB @thisbeautifullivingfreedom www.mermaidartglass.com   I am a mostly self taught successful glass artist and entrepreneur who has had absolutely no formal education or instruction of any kind. I am a student of life itself, and I could not have had a better teacher. Not only was I unschooled, I was raised by the most incredible woman, whom I am honored to call my best friend and mother. Her parenting philosophy of love, respect, humility, authenticity, and nonviolence, is what has allowed me to be and grow according to my own natural development, passions, and impulses. As an adult I have found it fascinating to try an analyze why my relationship with my mom, myself, and life in general, is so unusual. I am extremely passionate about parenting and education. I have spent many years providing childcare to a wide range of children and have spent that time observing and studying adult child interaction, how it compares to my own experiences, and what makes it so different. Show Notes   You are here because you're curious about self-directed learning. You want inspiration, practical tips, information, and a community of people to share your experiences with our guests. Advice and tips will help us all to create the most enriching learning environment we can for our kids. If that makes you curious.   You've come to the right place. So let's learn how we can best facilitate our children in their learning pursuits. Welcome to the rogue learner podcast.   Hey, hi everyone. And welcome back to the rogue learner podcast. If you're just tuning in for the first time. Welcome. I have been so busy the last four weeks, and we have a ton of catching up to do. I do plan to fill you all in, but I'll wait until next week since today's interview is already a super long one.   Welcome to all my new listeners. I'm so glad you're here. My name is Jenna. I'm the host of the rogue learner podcast. And I'm a mom of two awesome kids. My husband has joined me on the show periodically too. And his name is Chris. We are one year into our unschooling journey in episode 24, my husband and I review our year of unschooling.   So you can check that out. If you're interested in hearing more about our experience, I started this podcast as a way to connect with other people on the same path and to learn along the way, I've been lucky enough to interview some of the most influential researchers in this space. And I hope to continue on with a quality show that provides you and me with some invaluable information that will help guide our decisions about how we live peacefully with our kids.   I thought the show was going to focus mostly on education, but I'm realizing that so much of what I was searching for. A little to do with academic learning and so much more to do with my connection with my kids and family. I hope this podcast inspires your family to connect and live a more peaceful existence together.   One that puts respect for each other above all else. Today, I have the perfect guest on the show to speak on all of these specific topics. Summer is a grown unschooler who has never been to any formal schooling whatsoever. She's a unique find even in the world of unschool. Because many children at least take some formal classes along their unschooling journey.   At some point, her and her brothers were raised by their mother who saw the value in building relationships with her kids and trusted that her kids would become the best versions of themselves if she just supported them and loved them unconditionally. This was before the days of internet and unschooling forums.   So today you'll hear summer's unique perspective on growing up in an uncoerced home. There are so many moments where I actually paused the interview while editing to write down a quote, because she made so many profound. Summer is located in Hawaii. And the day we recorded, they had a pretty big storm blowing through, which means that during the last segment where I ask my guests the same four questions, summer's audio went out.   So we couldn't get a connection after that point. So I missed asking her the last few questions, getting her contact details and saying goodbye. So I do apologize in advance for the abrupt ending to the episode. Last thing before we kick off the show, I'm giving away free to learn by Peter Gray or changing our minds by Naomi Fisher, to enter into the drawing for your chance to win.   All you have to do is leave a written review on apple podcasts. Then email me with the book you'd like to win. And the screen name you left your review under. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. And I really hope you enjoy the interview. If you would like to be added to the conversation in some way, you can connect with me in the Facebook group on Instagram or click the voicemail link to leave a response to today's show and or co-host to show with me by clicking the link that says, join me on the show either way.   I can't wait to hear from you. All right, let's get on with today's show. Here's my interview with summer. Enjoy.   Show Notes   Jenna: Hi summer. Welcome to the show.    Summer: Aloha Hi.    Jenna: You are in lovely Hawaii and I'm quite jealous. I hear all your lovely sounds in the background.    Summer: Well, the birds morning here, so all the birds and roosters are pretty active.   Jenna: I love it. Um, I'm wrapping up my day. So I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, very tired and drained from being out in the cold.   Summer: That's so fun. I love that we can communicate like through time and space all at time.  Jenna: It's so awesome. Isn't it? I love that. That's the one good thing about technology? Well, I guess there's a few things, but I really like that too. So I am so eager to talk to you because I think it's a really rare treat to find somebody who has thoroughly been unschooled their entire lives.   And not only that, but has never had any formal schooling or formal classes or anything like that in their lives. That's I think quite rare. I think you even mentioned that you haven't met, have you met anyone that has had that same experience?    Summer: I don't think so. I've met a lot of homeschoolers and I've met a few unschoolers over the years, but I haven't actually met anyone that was like a hundred percent unschooled from the start.   Most people that I've met, who are unschooled did do some schooling. Either some public school or some Waldorf for, you know, a little bit of something in the beginning before their parents chose to go the unschooling route. So it's, um, it's my brothers and I seem to be kind of an anomaly and I didn't actually really realize that until somewhat recently.   I mean, I knew there weren't a lot of us out there, but I didn't realize that I was one of the oldest, fully unschooled people willing to even talk or share my experiences. So I've been getting a lot of interest lately.    Jenna: You're like museum worthy, right? Like, like, woo. Look at this specimen. Um, yeah. I think, I mean, for the most part, a lot of unschooling or homeschooling families have their kids take some sort of classes along the way, or yeah.   They go to high school for a year or, and try it out or, you know, they get curious and or then they go off to trade schools or colleges and in their adult lives. Right. So I wanted to actually get started with the word unschooling, because I think you have a different definition than maybe what other people have.   And I think your perspective is really important to be shared because you're the one who's actually experienced it. And I think for parents who are unschooling their kids or sending them to self directed schools, it's really comforting, not, not only comforting, but just it's something that we all are really curious about is to hear from someone who's experienced it, obviously, because we are choosing this for our children.   Right. And so we want to know that this is a good choice and who else to ask, but somebody who's actually experienced it for themselves. So, so yeah. Let's start there.    Summer: Well, I've heard, it's funny. You said that like wondering if it's a good choice because I've had people ask me that before. Like, um, do you think unschooling is good for, for all children or is it just like school where some kids do well and some kids don't and I kind of boggled by that question sometimes.   Cause to me, unschooling is really, yeah. Life without this idea that you have to force human beings against our will to do things you think they should do. So to me, it's like, how can that not be good for anyone? Like life is good for everyone. Life is good for every child. Every child is good for life.   And I, so I don't understand how it can be not good for some people and people are, well, my kids aren't self-motivated and I'm like, I just, I, it's hard for me to wrap my brain around this idea that unschooling wouldn't be good or wouldn't work quotations for some children, because I feel like it's life.   How can life not be good for someone it's just life without this idea that we have to be, he compelled, manipulated, coerced, bribed, forced into becoming something that other people think we should do. Or learning things that we're not interested in learning things that aren't useful to us of following some program that someone else made up somewhere that never even met you.   So I don't see how that could be. It's just doesn't it doesn't make sense to me. I think I come from this really different place of not having this lifetime of programming. So I get questions from parents sometimes, and it honestly takes me a minute to respond because I don't understand the question. I like won't understand where it's coming from.   I'm like, what do you, what do you mean? Why would you think someone would need. It's really interesting to me. So the term unschooling is, I've kind of grown uncomfortable with the term to be honest, because I used to use it very proudly. And it was a term that my family kind of fought for over the years.   I mean, I'm 32 now and my oldest brothers, uh, were they going to be 40? So 40 years ago when this all started for my mom, like there wasn't even a thing. Like no one had even heard of homeschooling in the area I grew up in let alone unschooling. So it was kind of this term that we, we protected and we fought for, and lately I've been realizing that this term unschooling means some really different things to different people.   And it does not mean what I thought it meant. And so that's been a little sad for me. I'm kind of needing to let go of and move on from that term because to me the most basic definition of the term unschooling is no forced education. Like that's the absolute, most basic, you know, boiled down version and it has no force education.   And I'm hearing people sometimes say this thing where they're like, um, well we do some required math and then we unschool for the rest of it. And I'm like, that's not, that's not even possible if you understood, like, to me, if you understood the first thing about unschooling, you would understand that if there's any kind of required, if you're requiring your child to use their brain in ways that they are uncomfortable with on interested in, on ready for or unwilling to, then you go against everything unschooling stands for.   So to me, unschooling isn't like a part-time thing. It's not like a method that you can  use on your kids sometimes when you feel like it, it's not like this thing that you can  throw in. So that's been interesting for me to like, come to the scene. That people have, like, I don't know what it is that people think unschooling is.   If it's something that you can use sometimes like, to me, it's not something you can use. It's actually, oh, it's a whole way of life. And it's a philosophy based on, on respect, absolute respect and honor of a human being. And it's, to me the obvious, it's almost like a by-product like unschooling to me as more of a symptom or a by-product of choosing to live in peace and harmony with children.   Because the way that I was raised was so much more than just not going to school like unschooling. Yes. It means no forced education, but it's about where that comes from and why you choose to do that. And if you're choosing to not put your kids in. It kind of goes into a whole thing, but basically in my family, for my mom, she chose to unschool and it wasn't like this conscious choice of like, I'm going to unschool so that it was actually like, I want to live in peace and harmony with my children.   Oh, I guess that means we're unschooling because that is what she felt like was the most respectful and nonviolent way to raise her kids was to not force us against our will. And she didn't feel like she was in a position, like a higher position than her children, like who she felt like, who am I to, to tell another human being how they should be or what they should do with their.   And so it was really more of, um, like, uh, we were a very, like a small tribe, the five of us, my mom and my three brothers and myself. And it was more about friendship and partnership and cooperation and living in peace and harmony together. My mom really trusts our natural human instincts to evolve. You know, she just could see that, like we would walk and we would talk all like with very little assistance and, um, she probably couldn't have stopped us if we tried.   And she just was like, why would anything be any different? Of course they will just continue to grow and evolve. Like everyone wants to thrive and be independent. So why would they not learn all the things that they would need to do that?    Where do you think she got this original thought? I mean, it's such a progressive thought too, especially if you have… you know, like I found it through Googling. I mean, this is not an era of time where there was just information, you know, information laden.    Summer: Yeah, exactly. I mean, we didn't have the internet, we didn't even have computers. We didn't, you know, it wasn't, it was not the time of screens. And so, no, my mom, well, I mean, she tells the story better.   I tend to get the details jumbled up because it's not actually from my own memory, but, um, she had my oldest brother really young. She was 21 and she didn't actually know that she was going to do anything different than anyone else when my brother came along and she just fell madly in love with this tiny human.   And she's like, I don't know. She has a really deep maternal instinct and she just gave her life to us. She did try to put my older brother in like a daycare at one point and she just thought it was the most bizarre thing. Like she's in love with this child. Why would I hand him to random strangers to be raised?   Like, this is weird and why would I leave him in a group of children where there's like one adult and they're not going to get enough love and attention. And I think she really just, something in her just thought it was odd. And it just went against her intuition. And my mom was very heart-based and intuitive and really listens to her gut instincts.   And somehow she was able to get in touch with that and listen to that. And she just knew something in her, told her that it was wrong to just leave her kid with strangers that didn't even love or care for him the way that she did. And why would she. Everything. So to her, it was actually kind of a selfish, um, choice.   And she likes to say, she did it for herself. She didn't do it for us. She did it so that she could hang out with us cause she liked us and a lot of other reasons, and it was just kind of little by little. It was one thing after another, you know, unschooling kind of came a little bit later, but it was like, why would I put my baby in a crib to cry themselves asleep?   Like that's denying their own natural impulse to be connected to me and my natural impulse to be connected to them. Like, why would we have these impulses if they were. And so it kind of came from like trusting life, like growing this trust in life and nature and just the natural bond between mother and child.   And she just didn't, she didn't understand why you should break that forcefully. And she felt like it was there for a reason why we have this draw to our mothers and why we have this attachment is healthy attachment. So it kind of, it stemmed from something different. It didn't stem from education. It stemmed actually more from, from this mother, child bond, this connection, this relationship, she just felt like there had to be another way, like why we don't have to break this and we don't have to push our children away and we don't have to be fighting and angry at each other.   And we can have a peaceful, beautiful harmonious home and be friends and be close. And she was right. She was absolutely right. And it took, you know, it was a really long journey for her. It was like many, many years and a lot of really. Self-inquiry and discovery and working on her own personal issues in order to stay connected with us and to recognize the things that break that connection and why we do them and what they cause and the psychological and emotional trauma that we cause children all the time, like completely unconsciously.   Jenna: Yeah. I think that's what's really difficult for a lot of parents today. And I mean, I speak for myself is this deschooling that has to go on, on the adults side to even get to a point where you can trust and live that lifestyle. I always say it's going to be a lifelong process because they don't.   Yeah, because I, you know, we're inundated with so much information from all areas of our lives that don't live this way and don't have these ideals and it's just a constant reflection and yeah, reframe and... Summer: It's daily, you were trained like most adults are trained their whole lives to not follow their instincts to not, they're not free to make their own choices.   They're told that they're not smart enough. They're not good enough. Other people know best for you, you know, you should do what other people say and what other people want. And that's how you're trained. Your whole childhood is. To trust yourself, not to listen to your own instincts. And so when you get to be where you have your own children, that's like, you don't even know how to get in touch with that anymore.   And how can you allow your children that kind of freedom if you don't allow it for yourself, that's her kind of her place that she likes to talk about is it's about freeing yourself. And now we have this term D schooling, which I've only discovered recently, actually just in the last year, like, oh, D schooling.   That's a thing my mom's like, yeah, actually you call it what you will, but to her, it's about freeing yourself and right. Because how can you allow someone else to be free if you yourself are not, you know, emotionally and psychologically and, and how can you trust your child if you don't? So it's, yeah, it's definitely beautiful.   I think that people have come up with this, the schooling idea and that there's a lot of resources and support for that now. And that's really cool because, um, I think it's really, really important that it's, the kids are fine. Kids are fine. They're fine. It's the parents really that have the struggle and it's a lot of work.   It's hard work. It kind of reminds me the more and more I get into these conversations with parents. It very much reminds me of deprogramming, someone from a cult. It's like, you're in this cult mindset of what education is and how children learn and how we have to train them to make them behave properly in society.   And that's a whole belief system which is part of a much larger system. When you start to deprogram from that, it's like you're leaving a cult and you have to deprogram this whole thought system in order to be able to see something.    Jenna: Yeah, it's a struggle. I, it is, it is work. It's a job.   Summer:I can't personally relate, obviously.I mean, to some degree, we all have programming of some kind, you know, so I'm sure, you know, I've got some of it as well. Well, I don't have the same from like the public school system. I was raised to always trust myself. And I was always told that I know what's best for me and that no one has the right or authority to tell me what I should or shouldn't do with myself and my life, with my mind, with my body, with my emotions, with my beliefs.   I was always told that I know that it's up to me, that I know that I'm responsible for myself. And I know what's right for myself and my life. And I was told that through. And when I say, yeah, when I say I was told that it's not just that I was told that verbally, like my mom told me that I was told that every day and how I was treated.   Actually I, what I could say is I was never told otherwise, and it's more like, it is more like I was allowed to keep that and I was never told otherwise.    Jenna: Yeah. That's uh, that, there's a difference there isn't there?   Summer:  Yeah. There's a difference. It's not like I had to be taught that I really just had to not be taught the opposite of that.   Jenna: Right. Yeah.    I talked about this with, uh, Naomi Fisher. She's a psychologist who just recently published a book about self directed education. And we talked about how there's a lot of things we learn in school that are not explicitly taught obviously, but things like, oh, you are not good enough or, oh, you, you don't look good enough.   Or, I mean, they're just subtle, but constant and daily reminders. You, you either fit the bill or you don't. And those lessons actually are so much more powerful than the actual academics that go on over time. Constructs the human that comes out the other end, essentially. Right?   Summer: I, that is actually a point that I bring up a lot when I'm talking to unschooling parents, is that I feel like, yeah.   Academic learning. So math and science, reading those things, can be learned actually at any time in life. I mean, anytime you can learn that stuff when you're 80, if you want, like there's nothing stopping you at any point in your life to learn any kind of academic education at all, but there are certain things that absolutely get learned.   At certain stages in life and they cannot be avoided and they are extremely difficult to unlearn later on. And these are these, like these deep, psychological, emotional decisions that we make about ourselves. These beliefs that we develop through really young, super young, you know, we're talking 2, 3, 4 years old, like right in that age range is when most of us make these decisions about ourselves in there based on our environment and how we're treated.   And sometimes it's something really subtle. Sometimes it's something really big and we get lots of these through our childhood. And that's what, like, kind of develops our personalities in a way, certain coping mechanisms, you could say defenses and coping mechanisms is when you're three or four and you hand grandma a picture.   And instead of saying, that's beautiful, she says, that's a funny looking tree. And then all of a sudden in your head, you go, I'm not artistic. And then you carry that around with you, the rest of your life. Yeah. You know, you carry that around with you and it's like you, and then you find more proof for it along the way.   So you get these little seeds when you're young, a lot of people who have these really deep beliefs, they can't even find where they came from. I'm stupid. I'm ugly. I'm not good enough. I'm unlovable. I'm not trustworthy. You know, I'm not respectable, like all these kinds of things. And they happen really young and they say, stick, they just, they stick.   And I think it's really, it's really heartbreaking to me when I see people sacrificing these emotional decisions, like, okay, well, my kid might think they're stupid, but at least they'll have learned. And it's like, no, right. You can learn, you can learn math a lot easier later on, then you can learn that you're not stupid because it's like, yeah, it's hard to explain, but I feel like we all have these real, these beliefs about ourselves.   And oftentimes we don't know where they came from even.    Jenna: I have an example of a moment where I felt really just sorry for our society and where we're at, because there was a child, a teenager at one of the groups and he was talking about all the things that he's good at, you know? And so it can go the other way, but, but he was like, I'm good at English.   I'm good at math and whatever. And I thought, okay, but that also can be like, it's the mindset needs to be. I can learn anything and I can be good at anything. And to me, even just saying, these are the things that I'm good at is limited, it's subtracting. Right? It's limiting all the things that you may possibly be good at.   Summer: Yeah. Like saying that like I'm good at this thing can kind of be like, you're saying you're not good at something else.    Jenna We'll go into high school and then maybe they get really, they base it off of their grades. Right. So they get really good grades in math and science, let's say, and then they choose a career in math and science, because they've always been told you're just really good at math and science.   But, what I would like to see change is not following things based on a specific credential you've passed, but actually things that you're really truly curious about. And you really want to know more about, or do better with, or provide some sort of value to the world in.   Summer: It's absolutely possible.   I mean, on that same topic, you're just reminding me of like one of the very common questions I get when people find out as I'm sorry. And from, you know, from people who are unschooling or interested in unschooling. And one of the most, some of I should say the most common questions I get are, how did you learn how to read and how did you learn how to write and you know, those basic things.   And then the other question is, well, what are you doing now? What are your brothers doing now? What did you grow up to be? And, um, what are you doing in the world? And are you successful? And are you supporting yourself? And like, that's what people want to know. And that to me is tragic. That is tragic. That that's your concern.   That's your question,is my kid gonna be okay in the world? Are they going to be successful? Are they going to be smart? Are they going to learn if I leave them alone? I really think it's sad that that's your first concern. Not that that's not a concern, but it's really sad that's the first thing that comes up that people want to talk to me about.   No one has ever gone, Oh, wow. You're unschooled. Do you have healthy relationships in your life? Like, are you happy? Have you found joy? Are you living the life that you love? No one asks that. They all want to know about monetary success.    Jenna: Well, that's what our society values.    Summer: So no one is asking about my mental or emotional state.   Like that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. And to me that's like, if you are, if that's why you're unschooling is so that your kids will be maybe more successful, I can't help you. My mom told me when I was little, I remember this conversation and I think it had to do with some pressure from some grandparents or something.   And me being kind of like, I don't know what I want to be when I grow up, because people would ask me that. And I think it's the worst thing you can possibly ask a child. She said, honey, she's like, I don't care what you do with your life. Like, I don't care if you want to be the garbage man. If you want to work in a gas station forever, I don't care.   I care that you follow your heart and you do what feels right for you and you stay true to yourself. That's what I care about. And it was like the pressure was completely off. I can be myself and whatever that ends up looking like in the world. And so if, if you want anything other than your child to be themselves and live their truth, then you're going to be looking for a method to change and fix them to alter their behavior and to change how they act in the world.   I don't think unschooling can help you with that. At least not in my version of unschooling and at least don't my version of unschooling and my mom's parenting philosophy at all, because it was all about allowing us to be who we already are. It wasn't about making us someone's okay. Are you only going to respect your child's autonomy and independence, if it makes them a better person someday, or are you going to do it because it's what's right, right now for you.   And because it's the only non-violent choice in being with children like it, to me, it's the only non-violent choice. Because any time that you begin to force another human being against their will to do any, anything, and you manipulate coerce, bribe anything, it's violence, it's violence against another human being.   And I don't care how old they are. And so if you're going to make that choice, just because of the outcome, and you're going to be like, well, I'll respect you now because someday it might have a good effect on you. I feel like you're in it for the wrong reasons, but if you respect your child now, because that's, what's right for you is to be a respectful human being.   I feel like that's, what's going to have even more powerful effect on your child because we can feel. You know, you can feel when someone's coming from a place of truth, like children, especially they can feel when you have an ulterior motive or agenda. So if you're treating them a certain way so that they will be a certain way it's going to backfire because they know they can sense it.   I've seen it. I've, you know, spent so many years in childcare myself. Like I can see it when I do that with a child. If I have any kind of manipulative behavior, if I say something so that they will a certain, you know, any of that, it always backfires. It really is about you. It's not about the child. It's about you doing what's right for yourself right now.   Like, do you want to be this manipulative, controlling human being to other human beings, regardless if it's your own child or your partner or your friend. So it's about how you want to be in the world, not how you want your kids to be in the world. And I think that's what's going to affect them is how you are.   And that's what it was with my mom. It's like I learned from who she was not necessarily what she did, if that makes sense. It's about like the place that she was coming from. And that's why often people want some kind of formula or method. Like someone asked me recently, well, what age should I wait before I introduce screens to my children?   And I was like, I'm not an authority. You know, this is not, I'm not going to tell you what to do. Like it's about where you're coming from and where that choice is coming from and how you see your child. And every child is unique and every parent is unique and every situation is unique. So it's not like there's an answer, this formula. And that's the thing is like people have that comfort in school and the school system, because it's like, we know at this age we're supposed to do this and this age, we're supposed to do that. And it's like, you have rules to follow. And parents are comfortable with that because they were, they were raised that way to rely on someone else telling them what to do.   And now you have someone else telling you what to do with your own children and telling your children what to do. And you never have to think for yourself, you can be lazy. You don't have to look within yourself and seek out these answers and follow your own intuition and your gut, and maybe be different and weird.   You don't have to do that. That's hard being sovereign, like being independent. It's hard. It's not easy. It's not comfortable. It's not, you know, you don't just get to like, oh, I just sit around and do whatever I want all day. I'm a self-employed artist. I have my own business and people say things to me like, well, if you do what you love, it's not work.   And I'm like, that is ludicrous. It's like, this is hard work to be self-motivated to be responsible for yourself, to be free. This is hard, but being told what to do and following orders, that's easy. You just keep your head down. You do what you're told to do. You don't question - everything's mapped out for you.   You don't have to dig deep within yourself to find your own truth and your own answers and maybe have some that are different from other people's and challenge other people. Basically with school, it's set, it's all laid out for you. You don't have to question or wonder. And my mom said, I didn't not send you to school, just put you into another system.   And I feel like a lot of people are doing that. They're taking the child out of school. They want to unschool. They want to homeschool, but they want this very specific thing. They still want a guide book. They want a rule book. They want a method that they can use on their kids that will work. Instead of like finding their own truth within themselves and having this unique relationship with their very unique and original child -  it's going to be different for everyone.   If you're actually present with life itself with your child, then it's going to be completely unique from anyone else, even in the unschooling community. So a lot of people are like, they've thrown out this one rule book, but they're floundering because they're looking for another manual, oh, at this age, we'll do this.   And I'll introduce screens at this age because this is developmentally appropriate. And this is, and it's like, it's still just this wanting to follow someone else's directions and not be responsible for your own choices. At least that's how I see it. I think it's very unconscious. I don't mean anyone's doing this on purpose at all.   I think it's absolutely terrifying for most people to take that leap. Like my mom, it wasn't easy. It was hard. She struggled, it was grueling. It's a lifelong thing. She's still doing her own interpersonal work. You can't just stop and be like, I have the answers. Now this is how you raise kids. This is the way you educate.   This is how all children learn. Like we're never going to have those answers because we're all unique individuals. So it's going to be different for everyone. And every relationship is unique. And I think that's where, that's what it's about for me is it's about the relationship and allowing that relationship to change and evolve and teach you and to be constantly learning from that relationship like you do with other relationships.   Jenna: Yeah. I think the problem with it is that most people don't have healthy relationships with themselves. So you can't have a good relationship with anybody unless you have a good relationship with yourself. That's why, you know, it goes back to the D schooling. I just find that such an important piece and almost, you know, looking back if I could change one thing, you know, like in retrospect, I think I would have spent a lot more time D schooling myself before the schooling, my children, like I would have spent maybe a year and I did to some degree, but I would say that like the intentionality was not for home educating.   It was more about like, I wanted it for myself. You know, I was in that stage of life where I was just kind of questioning and reflecting, but not with the intention of getting to a specific point where I could pull my kids out of school. I didn't have that foresight, but I really wish I would have, you know, at the moment I was like, okay, I am ready to home educate.    I would have started deschooling myself and then waiting a long time until I was properly ready to have the trust. You know, and wait till I was confident in my decision because as I was, you know, like pulling it all out and figuring it all out for myself, I was at the same time trying to help my kids along the deschooling process.   And it was actually really turbulent, you know, I mean, and it still is to some degree. So I think that process is just so critical and so instrumental in having a successful beginning.    Summer: And, you know, you talked about how people may do things on a certain schedule based on the system, right? Like, okay.   They go to school at age three or preschool, and then at five they start kindergarten. And these are the things that people say are developmentally appropriate and they should read at age six or whatever. Okay.    We get, we follow these guidelines and then it goes on to, I mean, a lot of adults are still following that law.   That our society made up. It's just made up anyway, you know, and people are still following that model. And a lot of people are breaking out of it now, but then they're still sending their kids to training for that model. So what I mean by that is like, you know, you get out of high school, you go to college and then you get married at a certain age.   You buy a house at a certain age, you have a kid at a certain age, you know, you've got this career. It's like that whole model, you know, that, like the American dream picket fence thing, it's like a lot of people are opting out of that now and having really different lives and choosing really different points in their life to have these experiences.   A lot of people aren't getting married until way later. Some people choose not to have children, people, you know, it's like, we're not following all this same model anymore. And yet we're still sending our kids into the system. That's training them for that model. Um, and so it's kind of funny. Like we're still sending them for the first leg of that rat race, but then we also want them to like, not be part of that rat race.   So, but we're still going to train them. So it's kind of funny. It's like why, you know, I want my children to be successful and independent and, and all these things. And a lot of people like their whole dream is to get out of this rat race. Their whole dream is to not have to work a nine to five. They want to be entrepreneurs.   They want to be more successful. They want freedom to travel. They want more time off. They want more time with their family.    Jenna: Well, maybe they don't want to be shackled by debt.    Yeah. And all of that. Exactly. Student loan debt and like all kinds of stuff. I mean, there's a whole, it's a whole thing.   And so a lot of people are like, well, I don't want that for my children. And then they're still sending them to the first leg of the training program for that life. And I find that really strange. Right?    Jenna: Right. And well, I think that, you know, the people who are waking up to this idea are people who are our age and are now experiencing that for ourselves.   So we're like, wait a minute. This isn't actually what I want. And so maybe my kids don't, it's not actually fulfilling and it's not actually necessary. And that you can set up your life in any which way. And there isn't a right or wrong way. And you don't have to follow these, this timeline as Arbus is totally just made up anyways.   You know, it's like someone just, it's just made up. It's not real. It's not true. It's just an idea. So it's funny that we all kind of have bought into this idea that we have to have this certain kind of life, that life happens in these certain stages. And if you didn't know, and you could just live in the mystery, you would enjoy a lot more what's happening.   And instead of trying to follow this, this whole saying, and there's so many different ways of living too. It's like I started my own business. I was only what I think I started making glass beads when I was about 14. And I started selling my work at local crafters and farmer's markets. At 16, I started my own business. It was making my own money at 16 because no one told me that wasn't a thing. No one told me I couldn't do that. Or that I had to wait till a certain age or I had to finish high school first. And then I had to go get a degree so that I could have a good career so that I could blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.   No one told me that I didn't have that idea shoved down my throat. So I made up my own path. I started doing what I love as I loved it. It was like, I was able to pursue those things as they came along, instead of like, no, no, no, that's just a hobby for later. That's not really a career. And I remember like my dad actually having those kinds of ideas cause he wasn't super on board with the whole unschooling thing.   My parents split up when I was a baby. I remember conversations with him, like through my teens and my early twenties, where he was like, that's a nice hobby, but you know, you should still get an education and go to college and get a degree so you can support yourself and not become dependent on a man.   And part of me was like, have you met me dad? Like, you know, that's never going to happen, but I understood because my mom had explained to me when I was young about my dad's family, I understood that it came from love and fear. So I didn't blame him, but it was a little bit sad for me, you know, to have him not trust and believe in me the way that my mom did, but he, he came around.   He came around. And at some point in my early twenties, I was looking, working for a glass blowing artist on the big island. And my dad came to visit. I took him to the shop and he saw my friend's place. And he was like, wait, that guy, he pays for that house and all that. And the wife and the car, everything through just making art.   And I was like, yeah, dad. And he was like, he was like, whoa. And it was that moment on, he never, ever mentioned anything about me, should be doing anything different with my life. And now he fully works my glass blowing as a career. Like he didn't see it as a career before he saw it as a hobby. I also, um, one of the things that I probably did differently was I learned as I did things, instead of pre-learning like a lot of people think, I mean, that's what school's for.   Right. It's pre preparation preparation. It's like, you're you pre learn. Right.    Jenna: They even call them preparatory schools.   Summer: Preparatory schools. Yeah. So they have the preparation for life because what you're doing right now, isn't life somehow. And. So, yeah, preparation. So like, I like to talk about that because I, it's kind of funny to me, there are some things that you need to learn ahead of time that you need to prepare for, obviously, right?   Like, if I'm going to have a surgery, I want that doc to have prepared, you know, like I want him educated, but there's a lot of things that you can learn as you go along. I guess everything in a sense can be learned as you go along, like you work your way up in a way. And so I always find it funny how people are, like, they take these individual elements, like out of an activity out of life, right?   So youextract this one element from life and then you teach it separately, like on its own, completely out of context in order to pre learn it for when it's going to be in context, which makes zero sense to me. Is 0 cents. You're like, okay, we're going to take this thing out of here and learn about it separately so that we can then use it when we put it all back together.   And you're like, well, why don't we just learn it altogether? Like, why are we doing this? Like, why are we separating out these things? We call them subjects, right? We take like one small element out and we try to learn it separately on its own with no application or purpose. Really. It has nothing to do with anything, it's just math all by itself.   And we want kids to like, learn this thing and memorize the saying when it has zero relevance to them or their life zero application, like they can't see the point. And yet you expect them to somehow retain this information. So that someday, maybe, maybe, and this is a maybe like, except for the very basic math, maybe your kid might need that somewhere down the road when it actually applies to real life, but then see, they won't have used it in real life.   So it's going to be another struggle and learning process and they'll have a hard time remembering what they learned because it didn't actually have any purpose or point to them at the time. Uh, so I think that's really funny because I learned things as I went. Some people enjoy pre-learning like my older brother, he likes studying things for what they are for the sake of learning.   I'm not really that way. I like to just jump in and  go for it and learn as I go along. So we all have these really unique ways of learning as well. It's fascinating to me how we put kids in this school system when it's like to me, there's just look at me and my brothers. Like, we all have these very unique ways of learning and acquiring and absorbing information and it would have been just a tragedy.   Had we been forced to absorb it in a certain way? Like some of us probably would have been labeled stupid for sure.    Jenna: Yeah. Just having, so I just have two kids. And so, you would think that there wouldn't be such a huge discrepancy in the way that they learn, I mean, they have the same parents they've grown up in the same house, like all the things, but they could not be any more different.   I mean, everything about them is so unique to them as individuals. And it's remarkable to me that they survived the school system and they really did well, actually they were super successful in school, but at the cost of. Still thinking, uh, like what we talked about before the cost was that they have definite perceived opinions about themselves.   And like, for example, my son who is incredibly gifted in anything mathematical logical, that sort of thing, he thinks he's not good at math. And that just blows my mind. I'm like, what are you talking about? And he also always talks about how he's not very good at German, but he learned the language in like 18 months and was able to do the work of a first grader with all the other first graders within a year.   But he has this perception that he's not any good, so that can't possibly have come from us or him, you know, that was external.    Summer: Yeah. And he made it mean something about himself because it's different than being like, ah, I'm not very good at this thing, but you know, it doesn't actually mean anything about who you are.   But like children, oftentimes when something like that happens and they're like, I'm not good at this thing. That means I'm stupid. So it's like, they actually make it mean something about themselves and about who they are as a human being. And that's what we do in our society. That's what the school system does.   We make what you do mean something about who you are. And so kids have this idea that they're not good enough because they can't do the things other kids do, or the things that adults are trying to make them do at a certain time or, or they're rebelling or whatever it is. And so it's like, I can easily say like, oh, I'm not good at that thing, but that's just saying, I'm not good at that thing.   It doesn't mean anything about me. It doesn't mean that I'm any less of, um, less valuable or less lovable or less intelligent. It just means I'm not good at that thing. That's all it means. But in our society and in the school system, that's not all it means. We make it mean like all this stuff about. If you're not good at math, it means that, you know, you're not going to be, it means something about your future.   You know, if you're not good at math, it means you're not very intelligent. And if you think you're not very intelligent, then you're going to struggle in other areas as well, because you're going to be operating from that belief, which will make you probably unintelligent. I know that when I'm afraid of acting a certain way, I act more that way.   Or if I'm afraid of what this person thinks of me, I'll be even weirder around them. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think when you're acting from that place of I'm stupid, you'll make mistakes. So when you're, when you're a kid and you have this idea, like I'm stupid and then you're trying so hard to prove that you're not stupid.   It's like you end up making a lot of mistakes. Cause you're so nervous. And you're trying so hard that you're not just being yourself and being natural and present with what is fear based. It's fear-based and you're overcompensating.    Jenna: Yeah. So I know that people are going to wonder though, like, what was your experience with reading, writing and math?   I mean, because you sound like somebody who was like, okay, I, you know, I'm motivated to do this. I want to do it. And then you, you essentially do it. You jumped right in feet first. So what was your experience with, with those specific subjects, you know, cause these are like the things that people are always just so worried about and my experience is so different, you know, I can't relate to that because my kids already do those things quite proficiently, you know?   Summer: Sure. Yeah. No, that is, that's a huge one. It's always about like, what about reading is really the big one that's reading is the big one. If I don't make my kid learn how to read, how are they going to learn how to read? And for firstly, I want to say about that is I feel like a lot of adults have this idea that their kid has to be motivated and make a decision in order to.   And I think that's not how it occurs to me at all. Learning happens on accident, like right. And laugh every second of the day. It's like not something you actually really have to do on purpose in that sense. Like, I don't feel like it's necessary for a child to have this motivation, like, oh, I'm interested in this thing.   I think I'm going to discover more about this. I've made a decision to explore this and learn about this more. That's not how it works. Like if you watch them, when they're tiny, like I babysit this one and a half year old little girl once a week right now, I just love observing. Like this age is so magical.   She doesn't make a decision to learn about something. She just picks a thing up and puts it in the other thing. And she's just doing, you know, she's just doing and experiencing and being in the moment, like she doesn't have to have this whole psychological process. To get to a point where she's learning something, learning is already happening before you even think about it.   Jenna: At that age, II think it's more about curiosity and experimentation.    Summer: It is at every age, every age.   Jenna: Older kids maybe, you know, from, from my experience with a 13 year old and an 11 year old. I know that they have specific things that they're interested in. Right. And then they choose or decide like, I want to get better at it.   Summer: Right, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. That definitely happens. And I have some memories of doing that myself, of being like, I think I want to learn about this and like going for it. So that does happen. I'm just saying that I don't think it's necessary for a child to know they're motivated and make a decision to learn in order for learning to happen.   Jenna: Right. It doesn't have to be a conscious,    Summer: Right, like an active process. That's what I'm saying. Okay. Be like this conscious choice and a lot of parents who are unschooling and they're new, maybe new to the unschooling and their children are young, they're waiting and they're looking and they're watching for their child to choose to learn something.   Instead of recognizing that they're already learning, they're already learning and they're learning without the conscious choice to learn. Like learning is just happening all the time. It's a by-product of living. And so when it comes to things like reading, writing and math and that kind of stuff, a lot of my learning actually happened by accident just through life because it's around and you can't help it.   It just happens through exposure. You know, if you see that symbol enough times, you're going to recognize it. And then you're going to be like, what's that symbol stand for? And someone's going to tell you, and then you're going to know that happens naturally and gradually. And then there's certain points where something grabs your interest particularly.   And then you'll maybe pursue that for a while. Maybe you'll lose interest. So that's how it would go for me. It's like, I feel like I, um, I grew in lots of different directions at lots of different times and would go in this direction for a minute and then backtrack, or then go in another direction. I'd pick up this thing and then realize that it wasn't the thing I was really interested in.   So that was happening all the time without the conscious thought process necessarily behind it. But to answer the actual question, yes. Reading and writing, I was a little bit older. So we had, there was a lot of negative influence from my dad's side of the family. There was a lot of pressure and a lot of negative influence and, um, it had some negative impacts on us as kids.   And I remember I actually have specific memories. I've written about interactions I've had with my grandma and stuff that made me self-conscious and she made me. Worry about myself and if I was going to be okay, like not going to school, because she would ask these questions, you know, and she would interrogate me when my brothers were out of the room and flashcards and be like, trying to teach me and like, like testing me on stuff.   And it would come from her own fear because she loved us, which I understand, but it still had a really negative impact on us. And so my oldest brother had it the worst because he was the first grandchild on both sides of the family. And, um, my mom just did everything opposite of everyone else. Wondered, do you know?   It was like, no, we're doing attachment parenting and breastfeed. It was all this more natural peaceful parenting kind of stuff that my dad's family just had no idea. They just were horrified. They thought we would be dependent and socially awkward and stupid. And like all this stuff, they were terrified, terrified.   So there was this negative influence. So I like to point that out just because my oldest brother, he didn't start reading, I think until he was about 12, because he was so freaked out from the family pressure that he was exposed to and the fear-mongering from them that he would get really nervous around anything academic, because they made it seem really scary.   And so my mom like was just like tried to give him as much space and freedom and remind him that he's absolutely brilliant and fine, and he's going to be fine and wonderful, but it's really hard when people that, you know, you know, and love and trust like your own grandparents, look at you, like something's wrong and they don't trust that.   You're going to be okay. You start to question if you're going to be okay. And So he had a little bit of a harder time with that. But then my second brother, he was the opposite. He started reading when he was four or five years old. And it was just because he wanted to read this one story in this one book.   And he sat my mom down one afternoon and they spent like a couple of hours and that was it. It was like, I want to read this story and it wasn't. I want to learn how to read it was, I want to read this story. And my mom had this really beautiful way of allowing us to show her how we wanted to learn as well.   Not just what and when, but how do we approach learning, really more like letting the questions come from us? So it was very child led in the sense that she wouldn't just be like, oh, you want to learn how to read. This is how you learn how to read. She's like, really? How do you want to learn? Like, do you want to learn the sounds first?   You want to learn how to read whole, you know, like it was like, she would kind of investigate that with us. What was our interest really? Because sometimes a child has an interest in something for a reason that you haven't anticipated and it's coming from. From some other interests or it's just one aspect of it that they're interested in.   And so if you can follow that drive, it'll go a lot further than if you impose your own ideas about what that interest holds for them or why they're learning that thing. So my, um, my second oldest brother, he learned how to read very, very quickly in like one afternoon, one story. And then my oldest brother, it kind of makes sense now seeing them as adults, because he's more physical in the works with his hands.   Like he's a sailor, he's a captain and, uh, runs a charter company and sails boats and likes to build things with his hands. And he just remodeled his whole house. And like, you know, that kind of thing. My second oldest brother is a computer nerd and works for some startup tech company and has a degree in political science and, you know, he's like the brain.   So it's interesting to see that later on in life. You know, when we were kids, Garrett was busy building things and clay was reading and I was making pretty things then, and Kai was making snacks. Like he became a chef. We all had the seeds of our true passions in us all along, but we explored various avenues and aspects of that.   So then when I learned how to read, I tried really young, but I was the kind of kid that was like, if I couldn't get it right, right away, I'd get frustrated and walk away from it. And luckily I was allowed to do that. So I remember pretty young. I want to learn how to read. Okay, let's do it. You know, like, this is what, how do you want to do this thing?   And then I'd just be like, this is, this is too hard. I don't, I don't want to do it. Like I would just walk away. My mom's like, okay, well, whatever. And I was really busy with my other interests. I was very much into creating tiny things, whatever it was like, you know, I was into sewing and fashion design and making clothes for my dolls and building fairy houses in the woods.   I was really into nature, really into plants, edible plants. My mom got me an herbalism class.  I had all these other interests going on. And then when I was about 10 or 11, I decided I wanted to read a whole book by myself and I read Jonathan Livingston, seagull. I struggled through it and I was like, okay, but I did it, but I'm not, I don't really want to do that again right now.   So then maybe a year or so later, my friend recommended that I read Harry Potter and I didn't want to tell my friend, well, I can't read, you know, I don't want to read or whatever. And so my mom started reading it out loud to us and I got so involved in the story. And then my little brother was like, well, I want to know what happens.   And he started reading and that's how he learned how to read as well. He was like nine. He started reading Harry Potter. And then I started reading Harry Potter because I was like, there's no way he's going to get ahead in the story. And I don't want to wait for my mom to read out loud to me. So I basically grabbed that book and sat down on the couch and made myself sit that I was like, I'm going to do this.   So there was that decision and that determination. Um, but I had already had so many years of exposure to reading my mom, read to us all the time and was always involved in the present and answering questions and all that. So I had all these years of being exposed to reading and letters and words and looking at pages while they're being read and then trying to read myself on occasion.   So it happened in several batches of learning over the years. And then the final push was just Harry Potter. I sat down and it took me about an hour or two at that point till I was reading super fluently and something just clicked in my brain. And then I was just like, I couldn't believe it. Like, it was the most thrilling experience.   I was just like, overcome. Like I couldn't, I felt like I was, it was like, I would describe it now. Like I felt like I discovered some new, amazing drug. I was just like, this is amazing. And I devoured it. I read Harry Potter in two days, and then I read the second book and two or three days, and it just went like that.   I read probably at least six hours a day, if not more for a couple of years there. And my mom would have to be like, you know, honey, you might want to move your body. You might want to get up and go outside for a minute. And like, you know, she had to kind of like help me because I became really sedentary and just obsessed with fantasy novels.   And then I read so many things. I evenI fell in love with Shakespeare. I read like every Shakespeare play ever written just because I loved them on my own. And then I found out later, as a teenager, that people were forced to read that stuff in school and they hated it. And so I read a lot of classic literature and I loved language and words and writing, and it was just this beautiful, magical thing.   And so when I hear people concerned about their kids learning how to read, I'm always like, that is the last thing I would worry about because. I feel like it's this absolute, amazing, magical thing. Like, everyone's gonna want to crack that code at some point because it grants you this independence and children naturally crave independence.   I mean, you see them, they kind of go back and forth and as they get older, they want more and more independence. No, I want to do it myself. No, I want to get my own thing. No, I want to do this. I want it. You know, like they want independence from you and all of these skills that we're talking about. All these academic skills, those all grant independence.   So at some point they're going to want it because they're not going to want what kid is going to want to be 12, 13 years old sitting in a restaurant and have to have you read the menu. They don't want that. They don't want to be dependent. They want independence. They want to be able to do it themselves.   Jenna: I want to pause there. two things that you said there that, um, really stuck out to me. So, first of all, I know that when kids are, they wait until there's that motivation, there's that thing that they want to achieve and they need this and this and this, you know, criteria. These things have to be met before they can do the thing, right?   Like they have to know how to add or, you know, whatever the, whatever the skill is. And so I've heard this over and over again with unschoolers and home educators in general, that when that happens, the thing that they need to learn, that skill is so rapidly achieved because it's, what's holding them back from getting to their goal, there's a driving force behind it.   That it's just unstoppable.    Yeah. And what's interesting to me is that we spend years teaching kids how to read some times and then practicing it over and over again. And that could have all been avoided that, you know, that time spent that time wasted sitting and doing these drills and practice and worksheets and, you know, reading out loud in groups and all of that stuff could have been completely avoided if you just waited until that spark came intrinsically, right?   Summer: Yeah, because it will. And I think that's the problem is that a lot of people, they don't trust that, they don't believe. And I think it comes down to like your basic beliefs about human nature and what a human being is born with. And I believe that they're born with this evolving spirit. They don't want to be stagnant and sedentary, like no human being is born lazy.   It's just not a thing. It's like, they learn how to walk and talk. Like you couldn't stop them if you wanted to. And without the psychological blocks that get built throughout life, like it would just continue that way. And I feel like, yeah, every child who grows up in a healthy, supportive environment is going to find a personal reason to learn these things that they need because they're going to be needed.   So that's the other thing I think is funny is that people are like, well, they need to learn these things. And I'm like, well, if they need to learn them, then they will, you're saying, need, need means it's actually necessary. Which means they won't be able to avoid it. You're kind of contradicting yourself.   If you think you need to force someone to learn something that's needed, because if it's needed for them, they will. You will acquire these tools that you need to live your own life because who doesn't want that. And then people are like, well, if you're really afraid of your 30 year old son living in your basement and never doing anything, I think that's what people are afraid of.   They're afraid their kids are going to amount to nothing, and they're going to be dependent forever. And they're just going to sit around and be lazy. I just don't really get that becaus