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Send us a text(Romans 11:16-36 [KJV]) For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. #spartanburgsc #apostolic #pentecostal #torah #caci

Join us on this episode, as we sit down with Jerome de Guigne, a seasoned expert in international business and Amazon marketplace strategies. We take a trip across Jerome's impressive business career, which stretches from France to Luxembourg, and uncover the crucial steps he took to carve a niche in the world of Amazon. Listen in as Jerome lays out the intricate process of aiding brands in scaling their operations and mastering the art of value creation on this global platform. This conversation also welcomes Jacob McQuoid from Avask and throws light on the hurdles U.S. companies face when stretching their commercial footprint to European shores, such as VAT intricacies, regulatory hoops, and the ever-present language barriers. But it's not a one-way street; European entities eyeing the U.S. market have their fair share of VAT tax complexity to navigate. We bring in perspectives from professionals at firms like Avask and explore tools like Pacvue and Helium 10, providing a lot of insights for Amazon brands planning to cross these transatlantic bridges. Finally, we touch upon the wisdom of starting small and testing the waters when it comes to international expansion. This approach allows businesses to minimize risks and optimize for market receptivity, a strategy underscored by the shared knowledge from this episode. So whether you're an experienced Amazon seller or new to this realm, this episode is packed with invaluable advice and strategies for taking your Amazon business to new international heights.   In episode 543 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley, Jerome, and Jacob discuss: 00:01 - Expanding Amazon Sales With European Experts 02:49 - Value Creation Through Amazon Specialization 06:45 - International Expansion Strategies for Amazon Sellers 09:25 - IRS and European Tax Authority Comparison 16:51 - Navigating International Business and Online Presence 20:10 - Navigating VAT and E-Commerce Expansion 22:38 - Understanding VAT for American Sellers 29:39 - US Sellers' VAT Number in Europe 31:08 - Comparing Import Tariffs 35:24 - Starting Small for Market Testing ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On YouTube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: Are you a North American seller interested to expand to Amazon Europe, or maybe vice versa? Are you interested in advanced Amazon advertising strategies? Well, today, I went to Germany to interview in person two experts on these topics. How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think. Bradley Sutton: Want to keep up to date with trending topics in the e-commerce world? Make sure to subscribe to our blog. We regularly release articles that talk about things such as shipping and logistics, e-commerce in other countries, the latest changes to Amazon Seller Central, how to get set up on new platforms like New Egg, how to write and publish a book on Amazon KDP and much, much more. Check these articles out at h10.me/blog. Bradley Sutton: Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast by Helium 10. I'm Bradley Sutton and this is the show that's completely BS-free, unscripted and unrehearsed organic conversation about serious strategies for serious sellers of any level in the e-commerce world. Another episode here coming from the opposite side of the world. I'm in Frankfurt, Germany and was able to interview a lot of different people. For the first time on the show, we've got Jerome here. Jerome, welcome. Jerome: Thank you very much. I'm super happy to be here and it's nice to see you on this part of the world. Bradley Sutton: Excellent. So you know, like I do with first time guests, we need to find out about you. And this is important too, because, like I don't know much about your back stories. What country in Europe are you from? Germany, France, so I have. Jerome: I'm all about going international, so my background is international also. I was born and raised in France but my mom is British. My dad is French. I lived in France but I also lived in Turkey. I lived a bit in Germany, in the UK and now I'm office design Luxembourg. So a lot of different experiences all over the world. Bradley Sutton: Okay, excellent, excellent. Now, what did you? Where did you go to university? In what country? Jerome: So I went to university mainly in France, so first in the nice city of Grenoble, which is not too far from Lyon. It's in the Alps Mountains, really nice to do like business and management. And then afterwards I did an MBA in a school in Basin Paris but had campuses in Germany and in the UK and also in the States. I did a week in Texas, for example. It was really interesting. So like multinational is really my thing. Bradley Sutton: Okay, excellent. Now, upon graduation, did you enter right into the business world and what you had studied, or what did you do? Jerome: So I went to work two years into the chemical business at that time it was called Atofina Archema. Now, it's like I was helping the head of the subsidiary there. So doing a lot of things, helping on IT topics, on business topics for two years. And then I came back and I worked for 10 years for a Chinese group and that's where I started to work in Luxembourg. And then afterwards, I was looking for a job and couldn't find one. So I said I'll start my own company. Bradley Sutton: Okay, and what was that company? Jerome: So at the beginning my idea was say, okay, I want to bring value, because when I did my MBA it was all about okay, how do you create value for your ecosystem? Because value has a price and you know, and then you can sell. So my first idea was to help people expand and grow in terms of sales. But I had been doing a lot of Amazon business in my previous company and like, step by step, I found out that a big pain point for people in Europe at that time so 10 years ago was not understanding Amazon and I said, oh people, it's simple, let me explain to you. So I went into step by step into the Amazon business and that's where we become specialized in Amazon. Bradley Sutton: Amazon is not a typical segue from somebody just coming from the business world. How did you first, just you know, think about that as a good aspect, you know, like Google or friends? Jerome: So my background was really distribution, since I was head of Europe and EMEA for this Chinese brand and we were expanding into countries having subsidiaries, having distributors, and so it's about selling right and then I started to work with companies and helping them expand and actually even 10 years ago, the or even more 10 years ago, the fastest way to expand was Amazon and it actually really started when a German brand I knew from before told me okay, take care of the international distribution of our brand, which was binoculars, and I said, okay, well, you know, the best way is really Amazon and that's where we really started to go there. So we mostly started from vendor background because bigger brands were working on vendor and now we have probably 70% seller, 30% vendor in terms of people we help. Bradley Sutton: So what about you? During this time, were you selling on Amazon yourself as well? Jerome: So I never sold on Amazon myself. I was always selling in the name of a company and, like I said, I started as a vendor, so selling to Amazon rather than selling on Amazon, and I've been helping a lot of sellers but never sold myself. Help friends. But, yeah, never went into it. It's a bit of a dream at some point to do that. Bradley Sutton: For your agency for the last few years, are you focused on any particular aspect of Amazon or like PPC, for example, or it's A to Z? What is your focus on? What you help sellers with? Jerome: It's very much A to Z we focus. We've got three main topics we focus on. One is global expansion, so it's helping anyone to go from Europe to the US, from US to Europe to US to Japan, to anywhere in the world, and it's really whatever they need. That's the first thing we focus on. The second thing is retail media. It's one of the big topics we do is like how do we help them expand better thanks to retail media. So advertising, PPC, DSP, AMC, whatever there is. And the last thing is technology. Jerome: So we're not a SaaS company but we use a lot of tools. So Helium 10 is one, Pacvue is another one. We also partner with SalSify, for example, on the PIM side, and we have built our own dashboard. So those three topics Global Expansion, Retail Media, technology are three topics we're very focused on and we try to help people through those different things. So it's really, for me, it's A to Z especially in those aspects. So anybody, for example, we've started to sell on our own accounts for brands who can't sell. So for me, it's like an additional. We're not really a distributor, but if a brand can't sell themselves, it's okay. We'll set up a seller account and we have one in the US. We have a seller account in Europe and we have one in India also, for example. So anyone who wants to expand in any way, we are here to help them. Bradley Sutton: Let's talk about the first thing you mentioned about the international expansion. I mean, there's probably 35 different combinations you can have. You know, Japanese person selling on America, European person selling in Japan, a person from Dubai selling in Mexico, you know, etc. etc. Let's talk about some of the more common ones. Probably the most common for our listeners would be I'm a US-based company doing pretty well. Now I want to get started in Europe because that's the second and third biggest marketplaces, UK and Germany. The thing the elephant in the room for a lot of people is like oh my goodness, VAT and things like that. So what are some of the main obstacles and maybe difficult things to navigate for an American company who wants to get started in Europe? Jerome: Great question. For me, the three things. The first thing is regulations and taxes. Regulations. So the thing is like am I allowed to sell those products in Europe? We're talking with a supplements brand, for example, in the States, and it's like okay, the way you talk probiotics, for example, or can you have that keyword on your listing all of that? So that's a first hurdle. We today were speaking with AVASK and AVASK is a great partner. We partner with to deliver, like VAT services and also help on regulation. Jerome: The second thing is languages. Obviously, you need to have a great service and you need to have great content for the local people and that's something we are partnering also with a company, YLT Yanak Krekic, who's delivering great service, for example. So typically, we create a hub of people we work with. And the third part is logistics, supply chain. It's like, okay, how do we? Will you get your products to Europe? Like, will you have a warehouse in Holland? Will you go directly to FBA? Who will be your importer of record? That also we work with AVASK and some logistics company. So, even before going into advertising, content and everything, you've got those three things as regulation, translations, in a sense and supply chain. Bradley Sutton: What are some of the steps that somebody needs to take as far as the basics that everybody needs to do? Like you know, there are some things that are kind of like nice to have. There's some things that are need to have. For example, let's talk, you know, let's talk about the need to have for getting started in Europe. I don't need to form a company in Europe. I can use my US company, but I need to. What something that everybody has to do? Is it the VAT register for VAT? Jerome: Yeah. So one thing you can't. Well, same way as in the US you can't play around with IRS, right, and in Europe you can't play around with the tax authority. So VAT is a must and my recommendation is that, typically, Amazon tends to underplay and when they sell the service of expansion, they tend sometimes to be a bit optimistic about the simplicity of VAT. It's not that simple, it's not over complicated, but you need to speak with people who know this stuff. AVASK is a great example of people who really know this stuff. So that's the one thing you need to be set up in at least one country. I don't know, we want to go in all the details, but you need at least one country. Best is to be listed in or having VAT in every countries in Europe but you need at least one to be legal and compliant. Bradley Sutton: Let's do the opposite. I'm a European based company. I want to sell in the biggest marketplace in the world Amazon, USA. You know, I know like way in the old days and now on Walmart, you know, actually still for in some situations you do have to have like a US corporation, but nowadays I can. You know, I'm registered in Germany. I can go ahead and register as an individual or as a person. What are some things that I, absolutely, have to do that are in obstacle to some Europeans for selling in USA? Jerome: So our assumption as Europeans that everything is simple in the US and generally doing business in the US is much easier than in Europe. Like you have much less regulations, there's less hurdles. Now on the tax side, it's still quite complicated and as a European, I had to learn okay to navigate that. Because you can have a company in the States, in one state who's like, its addresses one state but if most of your sales is in another state, the other state where you're doing the sales might say no, no, I want you to pay your taxes where you're doing your turnover. Or if you have employees, it will start say no, then there's a fight between the different states. Jerome: For us in within one country, that doesn't happen. Like if I'm living France, you won't have the south of France trying to fight for you to pay your taxes and south of France doesn't make sense. Yes, so this you have to learn. So here again, you need to speak to the professionals, because taxes, you can't play around with and it's once you've understood, you've understood it or you have someone doing it for you it really goes smoothly. It's also that in some states in the US the tax accuration is automated between Amazon and the states, but in other states it's not. So it's like navigating that and understanding that is a bit complicated and if you're not an accountant, you'd rather work with someone who's a specialist and we work a lot with, like AVASK, for example, or specialists who will help you navigate that. So for me, it's focus on what you're good at and try to outsource what you're less good at to make sure you don't make mistakes. Bradley Sutton: What are you using Pacvue for? For your clients and maybe you know, some people out there might be wondering what kind of amazon seller or large corporate or large company might have use for Pacvue as opposed to Helium 10. So what are you using now Pacvue for? Jerome: So I think, we probably started to work with Pacvue and Helium 10 both the same time, a long time ago. So I think we started in 2019. I think, the first agency in Europe using Pacvue. Basically, we were looking for a tool and what I did is I asked the teams. I said I don't want to take the decision. I wanted the really the users to audit the different tools and decide which one they wanted to work with. And they decided to work with, at that time, to with Pacvue. Jerome: What we did is there's a lot of rules on a lot of features sorry on Pacvue, for example, rules to like improve your campaigns and as an agency, you've got you know 50, 70, 100 brands you work with. So you have a lot of campaigns and you have to have rules which help you optimize. You can't be checking every campaigns all the time. So you have rules really helping you optimize things. So we've been using Helium 10 from day one also to understand the market, make research, and we've used Pacvue really to optimize campaigns and do a better job in terms of advertising for our customers. Bradley Sutton: Are you using Pacvue for non-Amazon platforms at all? Jerome: Yeah, so we've started to go on Walmart, for example, in the US. So we are using Pacvue on Walmart on the platforms in Europe. Not all of them are linked on Pacvue because some of them are smaller. So it really depends. But on the major, we try to use Pacvue, as much as possible, because it's our sort of system of record today in the company. Bradley Sutton: And Helium 10, what is your team using Helium 10 like? What particular tools or what kind of strategies are you guys using? Jerome: So they are using it every day, I would say. So they are checking on the consulting side. Our consultants are checking, like the Market Tracker, for example, or the keyword researchers, like, example, when you were saying, okay, should we go into a new market? Okay, let's see what. You know how many researchers are done on the brand or on the type of product. Then the teams are also working when they're doing their SEO, like checking, you know, keywords and backing keywords and also campaign keywords. They checking all of the tools. Jerome: For me, Helium 10 is amazing because each time I go, it's like, wow, there's so many tools and I feel like there's a new one each time. So I have a hard time keeping track of all of them but I know they're using it daily to really on one or the other bit to improve things altogether. And because we have a content team, we have an advertising team, we have a consulting team, an analytics team, they check different things, each of them for different purposes and Helium 10 has always been amazing to me, like the amount of wealth and value they provide on so many things and that's as a day, as I said, a day to day tool we use. Bradley Sutton: Okay, excellent. Now what kind of, you know, strategy help that can you give to our users? We usually ask our guests like, hey, give us a tip or a strategy. You know it could be about international expansion, could be about PPC, could be about health, could be about which French football team to follow. Anything that you want to talk about. What some strategies you can give our listeners? Jerome: So, yeah, I'm not a big soccer man so I won't go there because I might embarrass myself. No, the thing I typically say when you talk about global expansion is there's a lot of potential but there's a lot of hurdles. So probably you want to start small or start focused. So if you're in the US and you want to go into Europe, maybe you start in Germany and or in the UK because language is easier. Just make a proof of concept, go there, be successful and then start to expand. Because if you start to go in six, five, six, seven countries, then you have five, six, seven campaigns to build, translations to do. There's a lot of work. Jerome: So probably do one, show that you can be successful in one of the European countries and then expand. Same in the US, you probably don't want to maybe take all of your catalog and take a smaller part of the catalog, make sure you're successful and then expand. So for me it's like start small and grow from there. Learn, try to learn. Because international we're talking about earlier with other people today is like, you know, we say they're saying culture eats strategy at breakfast is like cultural things are very strange, like what happens how customer behaviors are different. So get used to it and to start with something and build on it. Bradley Sutton: Love it, alright. Now, one way I know people can find and reach out to your company is if you go to hub.helium10.com type in E-C-O-M-A-S. Is that right? What are other ways that people can find you, your company, on the interwebs out there? Jerome: So we're very vocal on LinkedIn and the team produces a lot of content on retail media on the street topics like retail media, technology and global expansion, so we do try to share as much as possible with everyone. I was honored to be named one of the Amazon Retail Media Advertising Ambassadors, so one of our job is really to share as much content as possible on advertising specifically and one of the advice I gave it was about globalization. If I talk about retail media is like AMC. Amazon marketing cloud is one thing which today is open. Really, if you're doing DSP and PPC, hopefully tomorrow it will open to PPC also only. I would really recommend people to look into it. This is giving you advice, like learnings, which will get you to the next level in terms of advertising. Bradley Sutton: What is the first thing that somebody just getting into DSP or AMC? What is the first thing they should maybe if they're just getting their feet wet? Jerome: So one feature, for example, which is already in Pacvue, which is day parting with AMC you will get even more granular information, a bit like with Facebook. You will know we've run some studies for some of our brands where you get information on the persona, like who is buying your products, like is it you know male, what age, what location, and then you can tailor your messaging, your content, everything you're doing, to really focus on that target customer you have. So that's one example and there's many others you can bring on AMC. We're just starting and people are just starting to get like insights from it. So for me, it's like get first, get into it, and it's not super easy so there's a bit of a barrier to entry. So, once again, either you can, you have got enough knowledge to go in yourself or ask for people for support, and there's a lot of great people. We can help. But there's a lot of great people on AMC which can really help you. Pacvue, for example, has got embedded some AMC features already. So I really look into it because that will be a game changer and for me, like they will probably be a change of like a crossroads people getting into it and who will win? And the others lagging behind. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right. Well, thank you so much for coming on and hopefully, see you on my side of the pond next time. Jerome: Indeed, thank you very much. Bradley Sutton: All right. So our next guest is one of the hosts for today from AVASK. We're in AVASK, Frankfurt office. This is not your main office. I believe the main office is in London. Jacob: Southampton, so it's about an hour south of London. Bradley Sutton: We're here in Frankfurt, Germany. And this is Jacob, who I met originally in Korea, spoke at an event that I did over there. And what is your title here? Jacob: So I'm the head of business development and commercial services, so responsible for client acquisition. You know have a team based here in Germany, in UK, in Spain and in Italy. So we're supporting, consulting clients, helping them expand. Bradley Sutton: Okay. Now, how did you get into the e-commerce world? Like, what's your backstory? What did you? Where did you go to university? What did you study? And then your entry into the job world. Jacob: Okay. So in terms of studying, I actually did Creative Media in college and then just directly went into working straight from there. So I started as an Account Manager for a finance company and then transitioned to AVASK. I've been here for five years. So that's the kind of a short background but yeah, been at the company for a good amount of time now. Bradley Sutton: Okay. Now, last time we had somebody from AVASK was Melanie, was on maybe, probably almost three years now ago. There's some people who might not know about you guys. So you know elevator pitch with an amazon seller and elevator. How do you tell them what you guys do? Jacob: Yeah, so we help people expand cross-border, so getting to different markets and try and make it as frictionless as possible. Kind of the biggest area for us and kind of the one we've been working in the longest is Europe. So supporting US sellers, you know, Chinese sellers, European sellers, sell all around Europe but that's not it. But like kind of in a nutshell, that's our main service, but essentially we help people get into different markets and make it as frictionless as possible. Bradley Sutton: Okay, so now you know, we just had Jerome on a couple minutes before you. He talked about some of the you know things that people need to be concerned about going from US to Europe, vice versa, maybe going to another marketplace. And he mentioned you guys too. So let's talk a little bit more in the weeds. About some of the you know, like this is what I call the unsexy side of e-commerce. You know the sexy side is PPC and Keyword Research and finding new products and developing your brand. The unsexy side is stuff that actually is arguably even more important, you know, getting your taxes in order and your business entity. So we touched a little bit with Jerome about the VAT and things like that. Bradley Sutton: But let's, let's dig into it because, like me, it just I've never sold. I've never done VAT here myself in Europe, and it's for a lot of, you know, US base sellers, like it's kind of like this monster of a thing that we have to worry about. Like, do I need to get it in every country? Do I have to report to every single country? Is it only if I am at a certain level of sale? So you are very familiar with what American sellers probably need to be educated on as far as this goes. So just take it away and let us know what we need to know about VAT in Europe to start, I would say, there's a bit of a, especially in the us. Jacob: I've been at the company for five years. Especially now over the last few years, has been a lot more regulation introduced in Europe. So when I first started at the company, there was a lot more US sellers who were interested in expanding because there was less regulation and people weren't as advised. But governments have caught up a little bit. There was a lot of that fraud so people weren't actually paying VAT. And that's not just you know American sellers, that, sellers from all over the world. But now marketplaces are Amazon a lot more regular, regulated, so they have to enforce it. So it stops people from wanting to expand. You know a lot of Americans they say, okay, VAT, how do I do of that? Okay, they don't worry about it, and I think that's quite a lot of the story in America. Jacob: For a lot of clients that I've spoken to, essentially VAT, like the system that we have in Europe, and in lots of other places as well, is completely different to the US system. Obviously, the US system, you have tax added on at checkout so you only have to worry about pricing your product and then in the majority of places, i.e. Amazon, and they're going to add the tax on, whereas here in Europe, you are responsible for adding the tax. So when you're listing your product, so you know, if you create a new listing and you need to make sure you include VAT. So I've had lots of customers who want to expand into Europe. They've gone for it. They didn't consider that the VAT would be part of the price that they actually put on the listing. And then you know, a month later, two months later, they've got the VAT bill and they have to pay that and they hadn't actually priced it into the product. Bradley Sutton: So like you're saying, like the buy box price should indicate it or it needs to be, it's separate? Jacob: No, it's just inclusive. So like, if you list your product for 24 pounds, for example in the UK, that 24 pounds is inclusive of the VAT. That's not going to add any VAT at the end. Bradley Sutton: What is the approximate VAT? Jacob: So for the UK, it's 20%. Bradley Sutton: So that means if I've got a product that I'm selling for the equivalent of 25 dollars, let's just say, I need to make that at least like 30, 31, 32 dollars, to include that VAT, because that's what I'm going to end up paying the government. Jacob: Yeah, exactly. So you have to look at the net price. So 25 dollars add to the 20 percent, so add another five dollars to get it to 30. And then out of that 30 dollar sale, once it's converted, the portion which was the five dollars would be paid to the government and the rates are there or there about. So like we're here in Germany right now, the rate here in Germany is 19% so slightly different, but there are there abouts. Bradley Sutton: Now in America, you know, after three years ago or so, we have the Marketplace Facilitator Rax. You know, like that was a huge headache before, where people didn't know in America. Like, all right, I live in California, I know I got to pay California Sales Tax, but you know, do I have a Nexus or whatever we call it in all the different states. And then Amazon's like or actually all online marketplaces were like there's some law passed or something where it's like, all right, you guys are the ones who have to collect it. Now we as Amazon sellers, hopefully we don't have to. That's what I've been doing. We don't have to worry anything about it. We don't add it to our price or anything. The customer is paying for it but Amazon collects it. They remit it. Now in Europe, what it sounds like number one, we do have to add it to the price, as you just said. And also, Amazon is not remitting that. I've got to hold on to that money. Jacob: And then so previously that would have been correct. But as of a couple of years ago, Amazon and now and marketplaces are responsible for collecting and remitting VAT for non-European and non-EU sellers in the EU. You still need to price it so, like in that example we had, that was $30. That $5 would actually be deducted from you and be paid to the government on your behalf. However, you still need to report all of those sales via VAT returns in different countries where you've got different liability, like similar to Nexus. Nexus means you've got a liability, basically. You'll have to get a VAT number when you have a liability and you can create different liabilities and free different kinds of means, but the actual money will be deducted and paid by Amazon but you still have to report it. Bradley Sutton: So that's at least one burden off. And then now is Amazon withholding that from your disbursement? Then each two weeks? Jacob: Yeah. So that would get completely withheld. So Amazon should be withholding it and then paying it on your behalf. Bradley Sutton: Okay. Scenario A, I plan to open in all European marketplaces plus UK. So UK, Germany, France, Netherlands, Spain, Italy, et cetera, et cetera. How many VATs am I needing to register for? Jacob: Depends. So you've got options. So with Amazon, you've got options for how you can actually use the FBA system. So, like obviously, in US, you send to a single FBA center. You have no control over where they're good to go. Amazon can transfer them to different warehouses. It's one country. It's lots of different states, lots of different tax laws, but it is one country, whereas with Europe you've got many different countries. So UK, we separated from the European Union the free flow of moving goods essentially. So whenever good to travel from UK to EU, they need to go through official borders. So customs checks, there needs to be paperwork, there needs to be declarations, et cetera. A lot of sellers now treat the UK separately and they just have their own separate supply chain directly into the UK. You need a VAT number there as a US seller so you can store your products there and sell your products, whereas in Europe, for FBA purposes, you've got options. Jacob: Amazon have their main fulfillment centers in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Poland and the Czech Republic. You can select which ones you want to have your goods in. Whichever country you decide, you allow Amazon to store. You've got an Enable Infantry Replacement on a Seller Central so you can disable and enable. If it's enabled, you have to have a VAT number because Amazon store your products there and that's creating a Nexus. Essentially, you create a liability. You've got to have a VAT number there. Jacob: So you could just start with one for the EU and you can list your products. So you could say right, I'm going to store my products in Germany, I'm going to list them in Italy, I'm going to list them in France, I'm going to list them in Spain, but they will all be fulfilled from Germany. Now the pitfall to doing that is Amazon charges you a significantly larger fee for fulfillment. So whenever I speak to sellers as long as they understand that because I've got people who you know they only want to get the one VAT number, because getting six or seven or however many you need to get is complicated and it means a lot of paperwork et cetera to get set up but at the same time, they don't quite realize the Amazon fees that you get charged. And I've come across cases where, yeah, it was an extra three or 4,000 pounds to get the VAT numbers but they ended up spending extra 40,000 pounds in fulfillment fees. So, like understanding, that's quite clear, but you can start off with not too many, which makes it easier for sellers. Bradley Sutton: A lot of American sellers are very familiar with rough costs of like tariffs and importing custom duties from China to the United States. Some have more. That's why you know maybe some people are moving their factory to India or other places. How does it compare, though, because most I would say 90% of Amazon sellers are probably manufacturing their products in China or India? How does the custom duties and tariffs compare on a percentage wise importing to the US as opposed to importing to Europe? Are there differences between like UK and EU? Jacob: Yeah. Depending on the products, the UK and EU used to have the same tariffs because of the UK separation. We've got the UK Global Trade Tariff and EU's got what's called the TARIC system. The rates for those two systems I would say probably 99% of the same and that will change over the course of time, but it wasn't going to all change immediately. There is some differences but you might find certain products have much higher rates in Europe. So you also get anti-dumping duty. Jacob: I'm not too sure if there is anti-dumping duty in the US, but this can be products that might be damaging to the environment or harmful to the environment so they put the rates up really high. But understanding it before you actually start shipping the products is easy to do. As long as you've got the right people to do it. You can understand the rates, understand if there's a difference between the rate. One thing you do need to be careful of, especially as a US-based business, not just US as a non-EU-based business, the particular country we're in right now, Germany the way that they look at imports for non-EU-based companies is sometimes different to an EU-based company. So I've had a lot of clients who they've imported stock directly from their supplier in China or in India into Germany, and the German customs office have revalued that stock. So instead of using the transactional value, so the cost of your products, the insurance and the freight, say €10,000, they've looked at it and they've taken the retail price and then minus Amazon fees, minus VAT, so to say 60% of retail, which then that 10,000 does end up getting to 50,000, and then they've been charged 5% on the 50,000 instead of 10,000, so suddenly you've got five extra costs. So that's something to look out for and be aware of, because I've seen it happen quite a few times. Bradley Sutton: Okay. Now, before we get into your last strategy of the day, just as a reminder, if this is all overwhelming to you, it's not something that you just can't ignore and pretend that it's not there. It's stuff that you have to take care of if you're doing cross-border or getting into new marketplaces. If you guys want to reach out to AVASK, the easiest way to remember to contact them just go to hub.helium10.com and then just type in AVASK, A-V-A-S-K right there inside there you can have the portal. There might be some specials depending on your level of Helium 10 membership that you might have available to you. Other ways that people can find you guys on the interwebs out there. Jacob: Yeah, so all the general means like LinkedIn, Instagram or just avaskgroup.com, so A-V-A-S-K group.com, and yeah, you can contact us directly for those means. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right. Now what's your last, you know, something I like to ask some guests is like a 30 or 60 second tip or strategy, that it could be about any topic you've talked about today. Jacob: Yeah, okay. So I would say, first of all, do consider Europe, but maybe take it slow, because there's a lot of red tape and there's a lot of history with American sellers in Europe and people getting stung by governments because of certain situations that happened in the past. Things are different now, so there's a lot more regulation that makes it easier for sellers to make sure they're doing the right thing, but it also puts more barriers to entry. You can start small. Like I said, you don't have to go for all of the countries. Start small with one. Start looking at the other countries, so like if you wanted to start in Germany, what are the biggest markets? Open your listings in the other markets and see if you start getting sales trickle in and then kind of make targeted decisions based on where you start to see growth. And that's what I think is good because we get a lot of people that are like right, I need to go for everything, I need to go for it straight away. Some cases really good, some cases they don't get the sales they expect and then they have to attract. So, depending on your position, obviously, would depend on what you decided to do, but if you're just considering it, you're not sure. Try that way because you're limiting your exposure in terms of compliance. You can start off small, your costs are lower and you can just see how the market goes. Bradley Sutton: Alright. Well, thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and thank you for hosting us here for our first onsite podcast here in Germany and our AVASK and Helium 10 Elite event, and maybe we'll be seeing you at a future conference again. Jacob: Thanks, Bradley.

--- Sermon delivered at Pilgrim Baptist Church on Sunday, December 17, 2023, at 11-15 am. -----This expository sermon is based on Romans 11-23-27. This sermon is preaching out of the Authorized King James Bible.--You'll learn that God's rejection of Israel is NOT final, and that there is a future day in which His Elect nation will be fully restored.--You'll also learn WHY the church hasn't replaced Israel, and why born again Christian's don't need a Deliverer out of Sion.--Romans 11-23-27 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in- for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree- how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree-- For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits- that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved- as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob- For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.---- -- -- -- ----Jimmy Fortunato is the Pastor of Pilgrim Baptist Church, located at 229 W. Jere Whitson Rd. Cookeville, TN 38501.--Pilgrim Baptist Church is a bible-believing, independent Baptist church that takes a strong stance on the authority of the King James Bible and the absolute necessity of public evangelism for true New Testament churches.--For more information about Pilgrim Baptist Church, visit--- https---pilgrimbaptist.church-

PODCAST SATELLITETHE VOICE OF ISRAEL10TH of Adar I, 5782 Prince HandleyPresident / RegentUniversity of Excellence LOCATION OF THE JEWISH TEMPLE ~ PART 3 EVIDENCE FROM TANAKH עדות כתבי הקודש למיקום המקדש   Prince Handley 24/7 Commentary (FREE) > BLOG Email this message to a friend and help them! ____________________________ DESCRIPTION This is Part Three in a Series to develop a construct proving that the Jewish Temple was NOT on the traditional location (referred to as the Temple Mount), but was in the City of David. We will discuss the following: Scriptural evidence of where the Tabernacle and the Temple were located in the old City of David (at Mount Zion) in the area of Gihon Spring. ____________________________   LOCATION OF THE JEWISH TEMPLE ~ PART 3 EVIDENCE FROM TANAKH   The construction of the Third Jewish Temple could begin immediately IF the Jewish leaders ... and the Temple Institute ... understood that the First and Second Jewish Temples were NEVER located on the Dome of the Rock Complex; Haram al-Sharif. This is Part Three in a Series to develop a construct proving that the Jewish Temple was NOT on the traditional location (referred to as the Temple Mount), but was in the City of David. In this message we develop the construct that the First and Second Jewish Temples were located on the original Mount Zion in the old City of David in the area of Gihon Spring―NOT at what is commonly referred to as the Temple Mount area (Dome of the Rock … or … Haram al-Sharif). ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ NOTICE 138 UN Nations adopted a resolution that referred to Jerusalem's Temple Mount solely by its Muslim name of Haram al-Sharif … one of seven resolutions passed November 4, 2021, that single out or condemn Israel, with ZERO condemnations on the entire rest of the world (including China, North Korea, Iran and Russia). ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ THE TEMPLE AND MOUNT ZION BOTH CONNECT WITH THE OLD CITY OF DAVID According to Scripture the Temple has to be in the confines of the old City of David―NOT in the area commonly referred to as the Temple Mount, or Haram al-Sharif (muslim Dome of the Rock platform). “Nevertheless, David took the stronghold of Zion (that is, the City of David)” [2 Samuel 5:7] This shows that Zion is within the City of David. “Arise, O Lord, to your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength … For the Lord has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His dwelling place.” [Psalm 132:8,13] The “ark of Your strength” is the Ark of the Covenant. The Temple will house the Ark … and Zion is God's chosen place for that … as well as the Temple placement. “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord. To the house of the God of Jacob … For out of Zion shall go forth the Law ...” [Isaiah 2:3] “Mountain of the Lord” is the Temple at Zion. “Sing praises to the Lord, who dwells in Zion.” [Joel 3:21] The Lord dwells in the Temple at Zion. “Now Solomon began to build the house of the Lord at Jerusalem … at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.” [2 Chronicles 3:1] The Temple will be built in the explicit confines of the City of David (which is the same boundary of the Jebusite city.) The stronghold of Zion―Metsudat Tsion―is located in the narrow perimeter of the 12 acre parcel of land known as the City of David. If Scrpture is our primary source there is NO other place the Temples can be located but within the geographic area of the stronghold of Zion. Professor Birch from England rediscovered the real Zion at the lower edge of the southeast ridge in the City of David during 1875 to 1888. And … check this out: “Now Solomon began to build the temple at the house of the Lord at Jerusalem … at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.” 2 Chronicles 3:1 The threshing floor (see 2 Chronicles 3:1) is KEY to identifying the temple location. Its connection to Zion―in the City of David―certifies to the evidence of the true temple location. Baruch haba b'Shem ADONAI Your friend, Prince Handley University of Excellence   OTHER RESOURCES: Location of the Jewish Temple ~ Part 1 Location of the Jewish Temple ~ Part 2 ___________________________ Rabbinical & Biblical Studies[Scroll down past English, Spanish and French] The Believer's Intelligentsia ___________________________

UNIVERSITY OF EXCELLENCE Prince HandleyPresident / Regent PRINCE HANDLEY PORTAL 1,000's of FREE ResourcesWWW.REALMIRACLES.ORG INTERNATIONAL Geopolitics | Intelligence | ProphecyWWW.UOFE.ORG LOCATION OF THE JEWISH TEMPLE ~ PART 3SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE 24/7 release of Prince Handley teachings, BLOGS and podcasts > STREAM Twitter: princehandley Subscribe FREE to Prince Handley Teaching & Newsletter ___________________________ DESCRIPTION: This is Part Three in a Series to develop a construct proving that the Jewish Temple was NOT on the traditional location (referred to as the Temple Mount), but was in the City of David. We will discuss the following: Scriptural evidence of where the Tabernacle and the Temple were located in the old City of David (at Mount Zion) in the area of Gihon Spring. ___________________________ LOCATION OF THE JEWISH TEMPLE ~ PART 3SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE The construction of the Third Jewish Temple could begin immediately IF the Jewish leaders ... and the Temple Institute ... understood that the First and Second Jewish Temples were NEVER located on the Dome of the Rock Complex; Haram al-Sharif. This is Part Three in a Series to develop a construct proving that the Jewish Temple was NOT on the traditional location (referred to as the Temple Mount), but was in the City of David. In this message we develop the construct that the First and Second Jewish Temples were located on the original Mount Zion in the old City of David in the area of Gihon Spring―NOT at what is commonly referred to as the Temple Mount area (Dome of the Rock … or … Haram al-Sharif). ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ NOTICE 138 UN Nations adopted a resolution that referred to Jerusalem's Temple Mount solely by its Muslim name of Haram al-Sharif … one of seven resolutions passed November 4, 2021, that single out or condemn Israel, with ZERO condemnations on the entire rest of the world (including China, North Korea, Iran and Russia). ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ THE TEMPLE AND MOUNT ZION BOTH CONNECT WITH THE OLD CITY OF DAVID According to Scripture the Temple has to be in the confines of the old City of David―NOT in the area commonly referred to as the Temple Mount, or Haram al-Sharif (muslim Dome of the Rock platform). “Nevertheless, David took the stronghold of Zion (that is, the City of David)” [2 Samuel 5:7] This shows that Zion is within the City of David. “Arise, O Lord, to your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength … For the Lord has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His dwelling place.” [Psalm 132:8,13] The “ark of Your strength” is the Ark of the Covenant. The Temple will house the Ark … and Zion is God's chosen place for that … as well as the Temple placement. “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord. To the house of the God of Jacob … For out of Zion shall go forth the Law ...” [Isaiah 2:3] “Mountain of the Lord” is the Temple at Zion. “Sing praises to the Lord, who dwells in Zion.” [Joel 3:21] The Lord dwells in the Temple at Zion. “Now Solomon began to build the house of the Lord at Jerusalem … at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.” [2 Chronicles 3:1] The Temple will be built in the explicit confines of the City of David (which is the same boundary of the Jebusite city.) The stronghold of Zion―Metsudat Tsion―is located in the narrow perimeter of the 12 acre parcel of land known as the City of David. If Scrpture is our primary source there is NO other place the Temples can be located but within the geographic area of the stronghold of Zion. Professor Birch from England rediscovered the real Zion at the lower edge of the southeast ridge in the City of David during 1875 to 1888. And … check this out: “Now Solomon began to build the temple at the house of the Lord at Jerusalem … at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.” 2 Chronicles 3:1 The threshing floor (see 2 Chronicles 3:1) is KEY to identifying the temple location. Its connection to Zion―in the City of David―certifies to the evidence of the true temple location. Baruch haba b'Shem ADONAI. Your friend, Prince Handley President / Regent University of Excellence Subscribe FREE to Prince Handley Teachings & Newsletter Prince Handley BLOG BIBLIOGRAPHY & SUGGESTED READINGS: The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot, Dr. Ernest L. Martin [Read FREE online] https://www.askelm.com/TempBook/index.asp The Jerusalem Temple Mount Myth, Marilyn Sams Response to Gihon Temple Objections, David Sielaff [Read FREE online] https://www.askelm.com/temple/t190201.pdf Temple, Dr. Bob Cornuke. Koinonia House Publishers Robert Mendlebaum, Bible Researcher and Eschatologist David Seilaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, www.ASKELM.com [Search for “Temple”] _________________________ Rabbinical & Biblical Studies The Believers' Intelligentsia Prince Handley Portal(1,000's of FREE resources) Prince Handley Books OPPORTUNITY If you would like to partner with Prince Handley and help him do the Spirit exploits the LORD has assigned him, Click thIs secure DONATE or the one below. God will reward you abundantly on earth … and in Heaven! A TAX DEDUCTIBLE RECEIPT WILL BE SENT TO YOU __________________________

ROMANS 1:1-2 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) ROMANS 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, for Thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us. for I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ROMANS 9:12-13 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. ROMANS 11:26-27 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. ROMANS 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; ROMANS 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: ROMANS 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. ROMANS 16:25-26 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

ROMANS 1:1-2 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) ROMANS 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, for Thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us. for I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ROMANS 9:12-13 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. ROMANS 11:26-27 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. ROMANS 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; ROMANS 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: ROMANS 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. ROMANS 16:25-26 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

On the podcast we talk with Robbie about finding your super users, the real reasons for subscription fatigue, and why pricing isn't as important as you might think, especially early on.Our guest today is Robbie Kellman Baxter, consultant, keynote speaker, and author. She's advised many of the world's leading subscription-based companies, including serving on the advisory board of Strava. Her most recent book, “The Forever Transaction” is a deep dive into everything consumer subscription, and a must read for anyone in the space.In this episode, you'll learn: Identifying and attracting lifetime value customers How to get and maintain customer loyalty Three causes of subscription fatigue Why customers cancel their subscriptions Links & Resources Strava Intuit Survey Monkey Oracle The Subscription Economy Tien Tzuo: Subscribed Eric Crowley Seth Miller CrossFit Shopify Calm Matthieu Rouif PhotoRoom GoPro Elevate VSCO Robbie Kellman Baxter's Links Robbie Kellman Baxter's website Follow Robbie on Twitter Robbie's book: The Forever Transaction Robbie's book: The Membership Economy Robbie's LinkedIn Follow us on Twitter: David Barnard Jacob Eiting RevenueCat Sub Club Episode Transcript00:00:00 David:Hello, I'm your host, David Barnard, and with me, as always, RevenueCat CEO, Jacob Eiting.Our guest today is Robbie Kellman Baxter, consultant, keynote speaker, and author. She's advised many of the world's leading subscription-based companies, including serving on the advisory board of Strava. Her most recent book, “The Forever Transaction” is a deep dive into everything consumer subscription, and a must read for anyone in the space.On the podcast we talk with Robbie about finding your super users, the real reasons for subscription fatigue, and why pricing isn't as important as you might think, especially early on.Hey Robbie, welcome to the podcast.00:00:58 Robbie:Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat with you both. 00:01:00 David:I was introduced to your work by somebody recommending your book, The Membership Economy, and it really struck me. I was so excited that you agreed to be on the podcast, because here's a book written in 2015, and we'll talk about your other book that was written more recently, but written in 2015. I was looking through it, scanning the chapters, so I bought the book. I was like, this is everything we're talking about now, thinking it's all so novel with subscription apps, but really consumer subscriptions have been around for decades. You've been working in this space way longer than any of us.So, I thought it would be really fun to have you on the podcast to talk more broadly about these principles of consumer subscriptions that apply equally to D to C subscriptions, as well as the app space that we work in. That's where I wanted to kick things off.So, how did you get your start in consumer subscriptions?00:01:57 Robbie:A couple of threads came together. I was in product-marketing for what is now called SaaS, for five years, right before I hung out my own shingle and started consulting. So, I had that background as a product manager working with software products that were being sold as subscriptions, and then as an independent consultant.My fifth client was Netflix. I fell in love with their business model, and I was wondering why isn't everybody else falling in love with their business model, too? This is amazing. Recurring revenue, predictable cashflow, the amount of data they were collecting on their customer. The fact that they're offering was just a much better way of delivering on a promise that many of us wanted delivery for, which is a professionally created catalog of video content delivered in the most efficient way possible. It meant not having to put a raincoat over your jammies to go pick up a movie, with cost certainty and no late fees.I was consulting with Netflix. I was already a customer, and a few people started calling and saying, “Hey, we heard you worked with Netflix. We want to be the Netflix of our space.” Whether that was news, or music, or bicycles, or dental pain management products, or clothes, there was a lot of interest in what it was that Netflix was doing.So, I started trying to create frameworks, trying to say, what are they doing? Which parts are applicable to other businesses, and which parts are just unique to that group of people solving that particular problem?That's really where I got started, and it turns out to be big enough and deep enough that it's kept me really busy for, it's been 20 years, 20 years. 00:03:55 David:Fifth client to, to land as a consultant. That's a. Really great. And so you were with them before they even introduced the, video on demand on the internet, right. You started with them when it was DVDs in the mail, 00:04:09 Robbie:Yeah. 00:04:10 David:Traditional D to C subscription service. 00:04:13 Jacob:But, but even then was satisfying a lot of those, almost all of those conditions. Right. I didn't have to go outside just to my mailbox, not too bad price certainty. I didn't have late fees. and then like, you know, insanely large catalog. Right. you know, it was, it was, it wasn't. We tend to wait for the technology to get that right.And then, then we had VOD being, 00:04:33 Robbie:Yeah. And they were already thinking, I mean, it was amazing to me. So I was there, you know, the time that I worked most actively with dev 2001, 2003, even during that time, which was all DVDs, all three DVDs out at a time, they were already thinking about streaming versus, you know, should they let you download it?And then have it explode after, you know, you know, some duration. What was the best way to deliver it? Should they come through your, you know, for awhile? I remember I think it came through your PlayStation or your, your we, were thinking like, 00:05:06 Jacob:My first like set top box experience with Netflix would have been on Nintendo. Yeah.00:05:10 Robbie:Yeah. I mean, so they, they were already thinking about it and I think that's a really important part of any subscription is even if your subscription works great today and it's good enough to get people to sign up the product team has to be thinking, how are we going to continue to evolve it in particular fringy? Right. How do we continue to stay relevant to these people while also having those new and improved features that bring new people in? And I think a lot of organizations. I have been taught to over-index on acquisition benefits and not thinking as much about those, the sticky engagement benefits that often are really hard to talk about credibly. Right? If I say to you, you know, sign up for my subscription, my, my video subscription, because it's the most, it's the easiest to find the next piece of content. And you're going to love our algorithm, right? People aren't going to believe you. You don't have credibility. So, all they're going to say is, oh, you have Hamilton, I'll sign up for that.And then I'll cancel. And then it's still up to you, you know, if you're Disney plus to get them from Hamilton to princess movies, national geographic titles, ESPN, all the other great stuff that they have. Star wars.00:06:26 David:I'm 00:06:26 Robbie:Yeah. 00:06:26 David:My son right now. Yeah. That's great. And then I do want to kind of step back and you're kind of right into the weeds with some really actionable advice, but I want to, I want to step back a little bit and talk more broadly. So after working with a few, companies in the subscription space and Netflix so early eventually wrote this book, The Membership Economy, which I love.Phrase and wanted to ask actually, did you, did you coin that phrase then how did you at the time and how do you still kind of define this membership economy that you wrote about. 00:06:57 Robbie:Yeah. Well, first of all, I'd love to say that, like I just came up with it and it was so natural and obvious, but, you know, I was thinking, I was like, is it, is it about subscription pricing? Is it about premium services? Is it about recurring revenue? Should I call it the recurring revenue that I was trying to think?What is it? And where I came out was it's not about the subscription pricing, which I think is a tactic. it's a tactic that you earn the right to do by having. Relationship that is trusted with your customer. The customer trusts you so much that they're like fine. You can charge me every month or you can charge me every year and I will just keep paying you and not look for alternatives.And for me, that was based on a certain kind of human relationship. And that's where I came up with this concept of membership that you belong. That it's, you're committing upfront to a long-term relationship as a vendor, and then you earn the right to have subscriptions. So that was kind of where I came up with it.I worked with Netflix. I also worked. At that time Intuit. I worked with a survey monkey and their predecessor. Uh Zoomerang and I worked with Oracle on the B2B side, and those were some of the companies that helped me sort of connect the dots and figure out how. The framework, of, you know, here's some ways to think about what happens when you treat your customers like membership members.Here's what you need to track. Here's how you need to think about it. And here's what it, what it can do for you. Honestly, the first book, all I was trying to do is say, this is a good idea. You might want to consider it for a bunch of reasons.00:08:26 Jacob:Think of it in opposites. I think it's is it the. the Zuora founder's book subscription economy,but but you're right in the sense that subscription kind of implies like 00:08:37 Robbie:Okay. 00:08:38 Jacob:Particular tactic for monetization that does go really well with this concept. But when I think of membership, as opposed to just subscription, like membership implies also community to me, right.00:08:48 Robbie:Yeah. 00:08:49 Jacob:Like building this. This, this ecosystem, this community that, that, which was then in genders trust, which then allows you to monetize, right. And and this great business model. about it in those terms, I think is a really nice way to put it as opposed to like, let's take something.Let's take something that, that we were monetizing another way and just slop noodle on it, which is something a lot in the, in the app world, this transition from paid upfront or micro-transactions driven apps to subscriptions, some have made it and some have not. And I think the ones that have made it are the ones who look at it in that light, in the membership light, in the.Earning their business repeatedly through content or through community. so I, yeah, that, that framing I think is really accurate.00:09:36 Robbie:Your point about, you know, so many companies to slap a subscription price onto whatever they already had, you know? Okay. We have a usage based model. Let's see what happens if we do a subscription based model for the same product, or let's see what happens if we take, you know, a model where you have ownership, where I download the app and it's mine, and I can use it forever, even if it's really, really obsolete.If it solves my problem, who cares, to one where you're being forced to pay every month. Yeah, extensively to get upgrades and maybe access to your peers and some kind of community functionality. It really is a different product. You need a different product for subscription than for, you know, a purchase or usage based model.And, you know, I love teens books. Subscribed is a great book. I recommend it to people. It's very, well-read has a lot of interesting ideas. but I didn't go with that, you know, subscription economy model just because I really want. To focus more on the culture and the relationship and not jump straight to let's get some of that subscription pricing stuff so that we can get a good valuation, you know?00:10:39 Jacob:Yeah. Yeah. I, it, you made me think of this one experience I had just as an anecdote was, X-Box in for three or four years ago, released an Xbox subscription. And I thought this is a really cool one because I could defer, I buy another X-Box every three or four or five years. So it was like, oh, I'll just spread that cost out.I didn't have a lot of cash at the time. I was like, this is a great 40 bucks a month. I get a new Xbox, right. And so I went in to do this at the, at the Microsoft store. What it really was, was they were giving me like a cash advance, like they were giving me, like, basically I had to get a credit check to get a subscription.And I was like, this is 00:11:12 Robbie:That's not a subscription. 00:11:13 Jacob:In mind. Exactly. Right. Like I thought I was joining the, the X-Box club and I was going to just get an expert and they're going to place my Xbox for me. Right. example. of that case of just like slapping subscription pricing on what was essentially a loan.00:11:26 Robbie:Yeah. Yeah.00:11:27 Jacob:Now my credit score, I have loan for a 19 20 16 Ford edge and a next box, on those are my two like credit items I've ever had. So it's really weird.00:11:37 Robbie:And they've come a long way. I mean, Microsoft has come a long way with their subscription strategies, you know, not just on the gaming side, but you know, with, with office 365 and you know, they've done a lot of thinking about subscription, but it really is super complicatedto, to make it work. 00:11:54 Jacob:Right? Like with software zero marginal costs or whatever you can It makes a lot of sense. will say, I will say, I want to give Microsoft some credit, back in the gaming world there Xbox game pass product product, which I also subscribed to has been amazing.I bought a new X-Box game in forever, cause I don't really care about title individuality. I just, whatever it is, $10 a month or $15 a month. And I get access to like 50 different games that rotate. Plenty. That's plenty for me. And I will probably never unsubscribe from that. Right. But it feels like a 00:12:22 Robbie:Yeah. 00:12:22 Jacob:Cause it's, software-driven, in there. There's like there's changing and there's events stuff that comes in and out and they make it a big thing. built it up into this, into this. Yeah. This kind of, it feels like a membership, as opposed to, yeah, just slapping an affirm loan on an X-Box purchase, basically.00:12:39 David:I do want to step back to your, to your book, The Membership Economy, and, I love the subtitle. Find your super users, the forever, transaction and build recurring revenue. finding super users is something we've actually talked a lot about here on the podcast. So looking for those cohorts, one of our recent podcast, guests, Eric Crowley.Talked about locals versus tourists. Seth Miller, another recent podcast guests talked about how, you know, figuring out these cohorts was just a huge unlock for their business. so what's your process? How do you recommend clients find these super users and how do you think about these, super users?You mentioned all the way back in 2015 before any of us were thinking about these things.00:13:24 Robbie:Yeah. Well, so for me, what I think about with super you. So I think about, you know, anybody does subscriptions knows. Segmentation is like re like the most important thing. You have to know who your customer is. Not just at the moment of acquisition, what they look like. You know, when you're like, that's the person I want, but how are they going to behave once they join?The moment of transaction becomes the starting line for understanding your customer, not the finish line. What like, oh, we knew them well enough to get them to buy it. We knew them well enough to get them to buy. And then to get them to make this a habit and then to get them to go deeper and to stay for a long time and maybe even bring their friends.So, you know, the first thing I always do with my clients, I say, let's focus on who you're, who you're making the problem. What is the promise you're making, who are you making it to? and that's kind of part one. And then we map out the journey. What is it? What is the goal that they have that is ongoing or the problem that they have that is ongoing?And what are the moments on their journey where you might be able to intervene and help. Right. So in the beginning it might be just one or two places, right? I'm I'm, I'm QuickBooks. I help you at tax time, but then it might be, oh, and I'm going to help you with some other key moments in your process of adulting financially.Right. You know, one of the things is you move at your parent's house and you pay your own taxes. Another is you might take out a loan for that. Awesome. You know, for whatever car you said, you know, you're going to get an, get a car and you need a loan and you know, they can help you. And so you're layering in those different beds.On a journey cause you want them to stay. You want to keep providing value. and then once you know what that person looked like, then you go tell your marketing team to go get lookalikes, get more people like that. Super users goes one step beyond that, which is not only are they great customers, you know, high customer, lifetime value, easy to serve, whatever.They also were putting their own money and effort, their own resources into strengthening your model. So these are people that bring in. These are evangelists who bring in other members. These are people who give you feedback on your products and services, which sometimes doesn't feel like a gift, but always is a gift.And it's, people who are willing to help onboard. New members. Right? So the ones that, you know, explain in the user group, you know, that, you know, this is, this is how you use that product, or this is, this is my workaround, or this is, you know, what was hard for me and how I fixed it. So those people, you know, that make referrals, that that speak out on your behalf that gather, you know, others they're so valuable.And I got really into this idea actually with CrossFit. my sister is a, is a big CrossFitter and watching her. in addition to all the money she was spending to, to be a member of this CrossFit box, the amount of time and effort she was spending to onboard new members to invite them over. When the, when the box was closed, she and her husband would put out their equipment on their live on a cul-de-sac.They put it all out on the street and invite the whole box, come over and get their workout done there because they love the community so much, right. Their own time and money to support the community.00:16:27 David:There kind of specific, Ways, especially digitally like, with, with or customer service, what are the tools that, that you see people be successful in finding those kinds of users and understanding those patterns and who they are and what they 00:16:45 Jacob:Yeah. 00:16:45 David:Like. And those sorts of things. 00:16:47 Robbie:So the, the starting point, I think is always lifetime customer value. So. You look at the group of customers who stay the longest and spend the most right. And the ones that people would say, we wish we could make more of these, you know, and then you look, you develop hypotheses. What does this group share?And it can be as simple as writing the names of your first 10 customers on a boards. These are the 10 customers we had. These five have been awesome. These. You know, didn't stick around long canceled, complain a lot, you know, whatever the reason is. And then you try to come up with what is, what did this group share that this group doesn't share?That's the simplest way in a, in a data world where you have the data you're doing the same thing, but digitally, how did they onboard? What was the source of the lead? what time of year? Like which cohort are they in? Did they join? You know, people like, for example, with QuickBooks people that join in tax season, Might be behave very differently than people who join as a new year's resolution or who joined in August.Right. What kind of person starts thinking really hard about managing their money in August? Great. you know, so, so looking for those things, developing hypotheses, looking at the data, trying to say what's the difference between our most valuable customers and our not most valuable customers, which is not your worst customers, because your worst customers are often outliers, but just the ones where you're like, they're just not that good.They came for two months, they left, they binged, they used up, you know, they were using us really heavily for six weeks. And then they left. What's different about them than the ones who continue to use this gradual. For five months. and I think that's where the hypotheses come out and then tactically, what you do after, you know, as you look at the difference in onboarding those different groups and you optimize your onboarding experience.To build those habits and then you mark it. This is often requires a tremendous amount of discipline. You mark it to only attract the high value people and not to attract the others. So if I walk into McDonald's with a gown on with my husband and I say, it's our 20th anniversary, show us to your finest team.Give us the best you've got. And we'd like a nice bottle of champagne, right? Customer's not always right at McDonald's. Right. They're not going to say, oh man, Robbie needs champagne. Somebody scraped down to the seven 11 and you know, get a bottle of Prosecco and you know, we'll try to pass it off. They say, that's not really what we do here.Dummy. They might not say dummy, but they might be thinking it, right. That's not what we here, you know 00:19:10 Jacob:The 00:19:12 Robbie:Right. We're here, you know, we're cheap, we're fast. It tastes good. Your kids love it. You can drive through and eat it. But we don't do, we don't do special occasion stuff. And so they know who they are.Right. And they're okay with me not coming in. Right. They're even okay with me saying, by the way, don't go to McDonald's, it's a terrible place to celebrate your anniversary. Right. They're kind ofCause it. 00:19:32 Jacob:Just all 00:19:33 Robbie:Right. The leaning is terrible. It makes your skin look awful. You know, the point is that if they took care of. Right. What am I going to do? I'm going to tell you, you know what, just go there for your anniversary. Just tell them it's your anniversary. They'll run out and get all the stuff you need. Right? And then they have all these people that are expensive to serve. Right? It's the same thing digitally, right? If you bring in the wrong people who are going to binge on your content in the first month, or the people who are going to push you to create features that nobody needs, except that.Right. It's just going to throw your whole business off in the wrong direction. So having that discipline upfront to know what you do and you don't do well. And to say no to some prospects, it's really hard to say no to prospects, right? If they have money and they're like, just add this feature and I'll pay.You know, Netflix in the early days, a lot of people wanted them to have video games. Right? Video games were also on discs seems easy, right? As an outsider, as an expert, right? I'm like, ah, video games, same thing. Video games work in a totally different way. And what Netflix said is we don't really understand how people would view.Games. We don't understand how they've use them. We don't understand how many we need. We don't understand how they value that. We don't understand how to negotiate terms with gaming companies, but that's a whole different thing we're going to, we have plenty of runway here. Just focusing on video content.00:20:51 Jacob:Yeah, it's, it's really interesting that, that, that feeling as a founder, especially true in SaaS, when you have literally 10 customers and like you will do 00:20:59 Robbie:Yeah. 00:21:00 Jacob:For the, your 11th, it's a little bit true in consumer. Two in the early days, like you, you're just kind of like, how do I get the funnel bigger?How do I, how do you, I think you are a little bit myopic on, the top of the funnel and not thinking about this long-term thing, partially because we don't have a lot of data. You launched your app six months 00:21:19 Robbie:Yeah. 00:21:19 Jacob:Trying to make decisions on customer lifetime value. And you don't really have a good sense because you don't know who's sticking around.You probably don't have a ton of data, but one thing you said. That really got my gears turning was that of putting them on a board and just looking at them, looking at the 10 customers or whatever it is, a hundred, even in consumer SaaS, where you have hundreds of 00:21:37 Robbie:Yeah, 00:21:38 Jacob:So it's not that many, you can grab it.You'll be surprised at how many things I've in my old days in consumer's house of like just clicking into a customer and just watching how they use the app, like an individual, right. It doesn't, not data, but it gives you hints and you can start there. And then, and 00:21:54 Robbie:Yeah. Hypotheses, right? 00:21:55 Jacob:Yeah. Hypothesis. And then you actually talk to those people, if you can, like get them on the 00:22:00 Robbie:Yeah. 00:22:00 Jacob:Surprised what they tell you. One of our, our guests Matthew and photo room a few weeks ago talked about, they would take their app to McDonald's and just show it to people to keep the McDonald's references going, and get like in-person feedback.And that helped them learn, you know, they, they were, they were an app that thought that. For everybody and find out later that they're actually like, kind of like a pursuer app for Shopify people, people 00:22:23 Robbie:00:22:24 Jacob:And people with, with e-comm and, and that like kind of exploded their business for this exact case.You're talking about where they found out. Okay. Yeah. We're not for this entire, like long tail of low intent users where for this really core set, but that can be really scary if that sets kind of 00:22:39 Robbie:It's always scary to niche down, but it's almost always. a good strategy. And I wanted to tag onto something else that you said, Jacob, which I think is really important. People often say, how can I make any decisions about, you know, based on, you know, who has the highest customer lifetime value?When, you know, we've only been around for three months or six months, we have to wait until they leave. Hopefully not for three years or five years, but what I've found. And, you know, I wonder if you've seen the same thing. Most people who leave leave in the first two months. So what you really want to do is optimize for onboarding, you know, are they adopting habits that look like people who are steady users getting value, and you can often tell that in the first month, by how many people drop off by who stays and buy, you know, are they bingeing or are they using it in kind of a normal way? And so you don't have to wait for 18, 18 months or however many periods, a lot of it, you get your answer right away. Do they cancel at the end of the first period?00:23:43 Jacob:Yeah, it's good to think about your product in terms of not just. Like signups and getting through the end of onboarding, like that day one experience, but think about what hooks are like, what are the things that people are actually investing contingent on? I always think that that's, that's a, know, you think about this long-term relationship, giving users, in your product to invest and to give back and to connect, like putting in 00:24:05 Robbie:Yeah. 00:24:06 Jacob:Themselves.Like there's passive usage consumption. Netflix does a good job. Like you can save, listen stuff that they do a lot of this just in passively, right? Like you consume content and they learn about you and then they have a profile. but I think some of the best apps, like let put in and that's going, gonna also not only probably make them stickier users, but also it gives you early indications and some things to hook on and be like, okay.I mean, Dropbox, this was a big thing in Dropbox. This story. they, they could get people to like understand the concept, but we had massive product issues, getting people to put a file in the thing, right? Like 00:24:41 Robbie:Yeah. 00:24:42 Jacob:Not necessarily the most user friendly thing. Like is some sort of app that runs in the background whenever they would, they did, they pulled users in, they watched them do it and totally fail.And then they fixed the product. Right. and, that's, that's. core product problem, but it relates to this this story of getting somebody to membership, right? Like getting them 00:25:00 Robbie:Yeah 00:25:00 Jacob:And focusing on that.00:25:02 David:One of the things that you talked about in your most 00:25:05 Robbie:No. 00:25:05 David:That I think, is so important to understanding the activation. Is is this concept of a forever promise. And so, so your most recent book that forever transaction we'll we'll link to in the show notes and whatnot. but in order to activate, in order to even just build a business, especially a subscription business, you need to start with Promise that you're going to make to customers. and then, especially again, like you said earlier to justify recurring payments, like, so tell me how you think about a forever promise and how, how any app, any business that wants to set up recurring payments should be thinking about this forever promise.00:25:47 Robbie:Yeah, it's, it's really simple. You take a step back and you say, when my customers come to. What is the ongoing problem they're trying to solve, or what is the ongoing goal they're trying to achieve and how can I best align my product and my messaging with that goal, that ongoing goal or that ongoing problem.So what can I promise them about it? So with a Netflix, it's about, you know, entertaining. You know, I'm going to provide you with the biggest selection of professionally created video content delivered in the most efficient way, right. With cost certainty. you're never going to have to pay extra fees and you know, there's a lot of, a lot of apps that are around.You know, helping you with some part of your business process, getting a certain kind of work done or tracking your finances or creating beautiful images for, you know, personal use for your hobbies. What have you gaming apps for fun? And I think first getting really clear on what your promise is and who you're making it to, and then you design the features and benefits to support them.Forever on their journey. And you say, as long as you continue paying me regularly, I am going to continue improving the way I deliver on my promise to you. Right? If I'm a gym, I'm going to have new equipment, I'm going to have new classes. I might offer you stuff online. If I'm news source, I'm going to offer it maybe through an app.Maybe I'm getting the access to the journalists. Maybe I'm getting, get the access to conferences or webinars on top of news because. My promise is I'm going to help you understand the world around you so you can make better decisions. And I don't have, like, if you even think about that promise, There's nothing about that promise that makes you say it needs to be a newspaper, right?It could be a conference. It could be classes, it could be a community of like-minded people sharing their learnings and their observations. So why not layer all of that in over time so that you get closer and closer to guaranteeing that they're going to get the impact that they hoped for on an ongoing basis.00:27:55 Jacob:It's interesting. in some ways relates to like what a company mission can be for a different audience. Right? You say, you know, revenue has as a mission. And that's one thing that I won't change, right. That that's kind of what we do. And that's part of joining the company and whatever. But, but I do think there's value in communicating that as well.This is like the customer facing version of that. Like, what's our 00:28:15 Robbie:Exactly. 00:28:16 Jacob:Charter. Like, why are we here? And what can I 00:28:18 Robbie:Right, 00:28:19 Jacob:That's not going to change. Right. It, especially when you think in those terms of not the like person who's coming to do a very quick transactional thing as in, I'm going to binge you put it, or maybe I just some trying this out, or I have this like one limited life or limited pain, like a limited time pain. Like what's 00:28:35 Robbie:Yeah. 00:28:36 Jacob:Engagement that we're going to do, is really interesting ground when I read the, framing of just the forever transaction forever promise. It's really exciting because we have the infrastructure for the first time in human history to really make this efficient at scale that like computers can do these sort of like, patronage relationships for us.Yeah. And, rethinking how we frame and, and relationships with customers, I think. Yeah. I mean, it's some of the work are a bit ahead of us on.00:29:05 Robbie:Yeah. Well, I mean, I, you know, I've been here a lot. Like I got here first cause I was here for a long time, but you know, it kind of a dubious distinction, but you know, I think you're right. Like you step back and you say, what are the problems? What's the ongoing problem. The ongoing problem is I'm constantly running out of laundry detergent.Right? The ongoing problem is I look in my closet and I have nothing to wear for this occasion, whatever this occasion might be. Right. you know, something that I think is really interesting to think about, you know, Amazon. Talks about removing all friction from all buying decisions, right. They started with just books.Right. And you still have to wait two weeks to get the book right when you ordered it, but they had this. All the different friction in all the different buying decisions. We're just going to, you know, layer by layer. We're gonna remove all of those things. And, you know, at some point, you know, I think they want to get to the point where I think to myself, those are really cool headphones that Jacob's wearing.I wish I had those. And before I even say. They're on my ears. And then I'm like, oh, these are uncomfortable. And they make my hair look bad. They're gone. Right. That it's almost magical. That's what they're moving to. No friction. I don't even have to say a word. It just happens. you know, I think having that kind of guidance of like, that's what we're trying to do, there's so many times when I've gone shopping and I've needed something, whether it's like buying a new house or buying a white blouse for an event and thinking this shouldn't be that hard.I have enough money to pay for. I know exactly what I need it for. And I've already spent four hours or four months, or in the case of buying a house for years, trying to find, you know, the needle in the haystack. It should not be this. When, when you say it should not be this hard, that's probably00:30:46 Jacob:An 00:30:46 Robbie:Good, 00:30:47 Jacob:Opportunity. 00:30:48 Robbie:Opportunity.Yeah, 00:30:49 Jacob:No, I I'm. I mean, I'm just sitting here thinking about revenue. Cats are, you know, this is a shameless plug time to talk about my company, but, I think about our forever promise and we, our mission is like we help developers make more money. That's our goal. but I almost think that. Kind of like a short, pithy way of like phrasing. It really it's about how do we remove the way he put his barriers? Like, how do we remove all the barriers for a developer to make money? How do we remove all the for a developer to value with software for other people? and often like people see a lot of these.Yeah. Subscription, infrastructure problems, data problems, all these, all these things are not why somebody got into it. Right. When they started Netflix, it wasn't like, I just can't wait to do like cohort analysis. 00:31:35 Robbie:Okay. 00:31:35 Jacob:Like all these things, it's like, no, we want to deliver entertainment to people the easiest way possible.And so, you know, for us, like, In some ways, our particular problem that we're, we've committed and, and going to the forever thing to, you know, our product is, it's a subscriber, it's a, it's a subscription essentially. but it's a long-term commitment by the nature of it. It's very infrastructure-related so like I've always talked how to, you know, is there something the early days had to give a lot of assurances to folks like yeah.We're, we're sticking around like, yeah, this is, 00:32:06 Robbie:Yeah. 00:32:07 Jacob:The long-term goal for us. But I think, I think that comes down to consumers too. Like the best companies I've seen. In our space doing consumer software apps, subscription apps essentially have like a really deep connection to the mission. And the problem I think of calm, I think of, 00:32:24 Robbie:Yeah. 00:32:24 Jacob:Photo room, this app, we work with that the, you know, they've been in vision, computer vision, and they've worked for GoPro and they've just, this is in their DNA to 00:32:34 Robbie:00:32:35 Jacob:Of image manipulation.And then, and then on the other spectrum of that, you think of. Companies that are just stamping out, don't know anybody ever heard that company stamping out utility apps or like whatever it is, and then slapping a subscription thing on it. Yeah, it works. I'm going to get marginally more LTV than they were, you know, before, but 00:32:54 Robbie:Yeah. 00:32:54 Jacob:Not going to, that's 00:32:55 Robbie:Yeah. 00:32:56 Jacob:The level of like computer or like problem solving for consumers that we were then we were doing before.00:33:02 Robbie:I think you have to be really passionate about the customer needs and the customer's journey rather than on your product. And this is, this is always a really rough conversation because a lot of businesses, really, really, really hold their products in high regard, whether it's. Automobiles or, you know, software, I mean, software, you know, most companies around here in Silicon valley, like the software team, they run everything.Like that's, that's the talent and everything, you know, they can build what they want. And, you know, I, I used to joke that, you know, when you work with. The car world, right? Sometimes it's just about the cup holders, right? It's not about, it's not about the big engine, right. Which is what a lot of the people, a lot of people go into the world of cars, automotive because they love cool cars, but a lot of people who buy cars.Don't buy cool cars. They buy practical cars that solve certain problems for them. And you have to be passionate about the problems you're solving for the customers. That again. So I did a lot of work early on with, in my sort of subscription life in the high-end bicycle industry. I was working with the bicycle product suppliers association, really, really interesting space.But one thing about it is that most people who own bike stores and work in bike stores and sell bikes and manufactured by. Our bike researchers and off-road, you know, risk-taking bike enthusiasts that have nine bikes at home, there's a whole huge untapped market of people who just need a bike to get to school or a bike to get to work or a bike for, for Saturdays to go to the farmer's market.And they ask really annoying questions at the bike store. Like, does this come in pink or can I get a basket for this? Or, this going to get em, you know, Reese on my, on my work pants and at some point, even, you know, like there's always this tension because the people who create the products, sometimes they're like those aren't problems I want to work on.Right. Or, you know, I worked in the hospital, you know, kind of in the, in the, in the health industry. And I talked to a lot of surgeons and they're like, yeah, you guys can do whatever you want around customer, this customer that treating customers like patients, whatever. But I want to see my patient unconscious on a table and I'll cut them open and I'll fix them and make them better.And I don't want to do all that other stuff. Right. it's hard because they're the talent. you know, I think this is a big issue with subscriptions because those Mark Key elements, aren't always the thing that's going to drive engagement, retention.00:35:30 Jacob:It's falling in love with your own product, right. It's falling in love with the 00:35:33 Robbie:Yeah. 00:35:34 Jacob:And not the problem, you know? you 00:35:37 Robbie:Exactly. 00:35:38 Jacob:I mean, I've been in the, you know, in the past, when I was in the weeds, like you start to really over it. I think analytics can actually like be, this is where, yeah.Back to the discussion of like, just throw 10 users on the board and maybe don't like, get the finest. Tooth comb to like go through your data. First is like, when you have like super high fidelity data on everything, you can start to get really data oriented. But if your product is the thing, collecting the data, you sort of inherently bias the data collection you're doing based on the product you have.You miss a lot of opportunities because you're not just thinking about the problem space. I worked on this app called elevate, which was training, and I can remember so many. So many like heated discussions about, this flow, should we do this or X and Y and Z. And not as many as we should have had about like, why are people actually coming to this app like addressing those questions from like head-on, and thinking about ways that we can improve the product with that.The beginning. And I haven't seen that revenue cat too. Like we have a lot of which are really deep and rich and people use and they're in love with, and we can, you know, you can spend a lot of brain power and a lot of focus thinking about the next iteration of that thing. The re yeah, like you said, the, the, the, the bike shop owner who's really into bikes are like really into some particular technology touch with.Yeah, these bigger things, it's like forever promise this, like, what are we actually building? Like what does revenue cap mean? And in a decade when the problems we're solving now, actually, maybe aren't that relevant the case. We've talked a lot about media companies and I almost snuck in a metaverse joke.And now I will just refer to OMA 00:37:14 Robbie:Yeah. 00:37:15 Jacob:Joke your headphones, but like, Yeah, we think about this as like modes of consumption are going to be changing. that's where these, like, missions, customer mission or forever promises kind of come in. It's like making sure that regardless of a Netflix delivered on a DVD or on a streaming set top box, or into some sort of like brain 00:37:34 Robbie:Okay. 00:37:35 Jacob:Like this, the subscribers will transfer.Right. 00:37:38 Robbie:Yeah. 00:37:39 Jacob:Yeah. And this is one of my, like now I'm now I'm ranting, but think is one of the reasons I'm still really excited about all of these pieces coming together, is because it does just feel like we've reached some stage in our economy where we can align a lot more incentives this way.Then maybe we have been able to in the past, which I think is just exciting.00:38:00 David:But as we align those incentives and people get more and more subscriptions. Nice little transition there. Thank you, 00:38:07 Jacob:That's great. David, you're getting this podcasting thing, like really turning it in.00:38:11 David:There is a growing, chorus of, but subscription fatigue, People are tiring of all these subscriptions and no matter how much you can align incentives And everything else, people are just not going to want to pay subscription. So having, having seen the, the growth in subscription, consumer subscription starting way back at Netflix in the early two thousands, and now we are layering on more and more and more.What what's your perspective on this, this concept of subscription fatigue, our consumers really tiring of, paying in this way. 00:38:49 Robbie:Yeah. So the upside of, you know, this explosion and subscriptions is that consumers, and actually businesses alike are much more receptive to subscription offerings. They understand them, they understand the value they can provide if they're done. Right. and they're easier than ever before for any kind of company.You know, from the smallest mom and pop up to the, you know, the biggest multinationals to offer subscription pricing. The downside is there's this glut of subscriptions. Every company has them and not all of them are well-designed as, as we've been discussing. and that leads to subscription fatigue, and, and there's sort of three things.Contribute to that. One of them is where these, the product does not justify subscription pricing, right? This is a product I'm going to need once and you're requiring me to subscribe to it. That feels unfair. you know, or I'm never, I'm hardly ever going to use this in. You're making me subscribe, even though, you know, my use case doesn't justify that investment.Second problem is kind of the flip side of that, which I think of the subscription overwhelm or subscription guilt, which is. This great value. Actually, your product is fantastic, but I can't use all the value because of my own issues. And that makes me feel bad about myself. Like this is when you, you know, you have the new Yorker magazine piling up on your bedside table.Right. And you just cause you just want to Netflix and chill cause you're tired. But like your thought at the beginning of the day is I'm going to get so smart. I'm going to read all these great. That makes you feel bad about yourself, you can't, you know what I would suggest for example, that a new Yorker does is to educate consumers, that you only have to read one or two articles to get the full value of your subscription.It's all you care to consume, not consume all of it or you're, you're lazy. but I think that overwhelm, or, you know, same thing with blue apron where the meal kits are in your fridge and you're not using 00:40:34 Jacob:No, Don't even fatigue. it's a rough subject.00:40:39 Robbie:Yeah. Cause you feel bad, like the meals are calling to you and you're like, don't go out with your friends. 00:40:44 Jacob:Yeah. 00:40:44 Robbie:In the fridge. Don't be a waster. 00:40:47 Jacob:With my spouse about cooking because we have the giant meal kit to do. but it's great. I love the time.00:40:53 Robbie:Yeah. So then, and then, and then I think the last one, I mean, but it's, it's great. Cause it's not the fault. The meal is great. It's I don't feel like eating it today or someone invited me over for like the crazy one is when someone invites you to dinner. And so then it's not even a question of finances.You're like, well, either way, I'm not going to have to spend any more money and I'm going to get a delicious dinner. Do I want to make the blue apron dinner or go to my friend's house? Who just invited me? Well, I can't go to my friend's house because I feel bad throwing the blue apron in garbage 00:41:19 Jacob:To, the lettuce is going to be wilted by the next by tomorrow.So. 00:41:22 Robbie:Day I can cook. And then the last issue, so there's there's know, bad product-market fit. There's this subscription overwhelmed or subscription guilt. And then the last one is hiding the cancel button. And I'm really interested in what you guys think about that one. Cause a lot of subscriptions, make it really hard for you to get out of this.Cancel anytime relationship, even though. That's what they pitched. Join and cancel any time. If you can find the cancel button, which we've hidden behind 27 clicks with a call us on Tuesday, you know, extra hurdle.00:41:54 Jacob:Yeah, I think it's, well, my take is it's terrible. And anybody that does, it should really reevaluate what they're doing in software. Cause like, I think it violates that trust, right? Like, welcome. We're going to ask for this thing where you're gonna you're you're gonna let us charge. We're just going to suck money out of your bank account every month, because you've decided to like enter this relationship with us and then we're going to go ahead and betray that trust.Right. We can turn around and betray that 00:42:16 Robbie:Yeah,Advantage. 00:42:17 Jacob:But, yeah, I hadn't. Thought of fatigue in so many channels like that are so many aspects, but like the, the overwhelming aspect is interesting. And I resonate. I feel that, like, I feel that with, with dinner boxes, for sure, but even in software too, there's certain pieces of software.Like, I feel like, ah, I can't cancel it cause I have these intense and things like that. And that's not really what you want to, those, aren't the relationships you want to focus on. Right? Like so. 00:42:40 David:Side there, I think like I use this example a ton, but, Visco, I'm not a daily user. I'm not even necessarily a monthly user, but when there's a photo of my kids or just a photo, I took that I really cherish. I important into Visco and Fisco makes it better. And that to me is so valuable that I didn't even care.I mean, 20 bucks a year, I think is too cheap for their product. I would pay a lot more, even though I maybe only use it quarterly sometimes, or maybe once a month or, you know, when I'm on vacation, maybe I use it every day for a week, but it's interesting that that product. Doesn't create that sense of, oh, I'm not getting enough value out of it because I get so much value when I do. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Maybe if it were $60 a year, it would be too much. But I mean, I just, I just would never consider canceling because I it's just, when I have a photo I care about, I take it to Bisco and it's better and it like, that's their forever promise and it just resonates so well with me that I don't, I don't get that, guilt you know, I get more than $20 a year of value out of 00:43:49 Jacob:00:43:50 Robbie:Yeah, I think, I mean, it's interesting. I think one of the things about this, you know, sort of dealing with subscription overwhelm is, you know, is it framed like whatever the customer is, anchoring their pricing to. where they say it's valuable enough. So, so for example, I worked with, one of these produce box companies, and one of their challenges was that most of their customers said that most weeks they ended up throwing something away.Right. Because it's never the exact right amount of produce. Right? So you end up at the end of the week with like soggy kale or, you know, turnips, and then you go on vacation and you come back and they put them into with these turnips. But one of the things that we did is we set expectations. That it's okay to throw out a little bit of produce that you're still getting a better price than you would at the store.And you're still supporting farmers, local farmers. So sometimes it's as simple as just reframing what the expectation is like saying for Visco. You know, if you, if you use, you know, if you use this for two or three, you know, memory pictures a year, You know, doesn't that pay for itself in 20 bucks worth, you know, three great shots of your life.You know, the three best moments of 2021. a lot of it is about, is about, I think, expectation setting and understanding your customer and what the value is. Like. I don't know how much I pay for Amazon prime. I don't care.00:45:05 Jacob:Yeah, 00:45:06 Robbie:I it almost every 00:45:07 Jacob:I 00:45:07 Robbie:Mean, I don't. 00:45:08 Jacob:A decade ago and haven't thought about really 00:45:11 Robbie:Right. But I use it every day. Like I don't care what it costs. I mean, if they start charging $3,000, I would care. But like, if it's a hundred dollars a year or $85 a year or $115, I don't care. And that's a really important point about pricing is that at least I've found with many of the subscription companies I've worked with and a lot of, you know, software products when they don't sell well, when their business isn't growing, they immediately jumped to the. Must be too expensive. We'll have to lower our price. But in so many cases, it's not about the price. It's about the value. I'm not using it. If I'm not using it, it doesn't matter if it's a dollar or a hundred dollars. and so thinking about why aren't they using it before you jump right to, well, I guess I'll take 10% off the top.00:45:56 David:Yeah, let let's let's talk pricing real quick.Cause you, you do have several strategies that you get through in the book and in what you were, what you were just explaining was one of the things I really took away from your book. is it you say in the book that it's more important to understand product-market fit and willingness to pay than finding the exact right price.And so you, you were, you kind of backed into explaining that, but let, let's elaborate a little bit. And essentially what you were just describing was that a product that doesn't have product-market fit, it doesn't matter what you price it. You know, what are, what are your, what else, what are your thoughts on that?00:46:36 Robbie:Yeah. I, I just think, I mean, in so many things in life, you're kind of on a continuum. Like, you know, I remember when many years ago I started doing weightlifting and, you know, I told people that I was doing it to be more fit and you know, stronger, and now it's very common, but at the time a woman doing weightlifting, you know, working out with weights and people would say to me, I don't want.Huge muscles. And I was like, oh honey, you are so far from that being a problem. Like we're at the other end of the continuum. Like there are certainly people, women who work out and get too muscly and that's not what they want men to wear. Like then it intervenes with my ability to do my sport. But for most people it doesn't just happen.And I think in the world of apps, I think most people. Kind of over index on pricing and think that that's going to be the key thing to figuring this out. When a lot of times there's actually a pretty big gap between, you know, kind of where you can make money and where your customer is willing to pay there's lots of room, lots of different prices. And as long as you launch somewhere in that. You're going to make some money and over time, there's lots of ways to become more sophisticated and get to a better and better price point. But a lot of people assume that if they have a highly elastic product, meaning that for every dollar you increase your pricing.Your number of customers drops by a predictable percentage. And I think in many cases for a lot of products that are inelastic, if I use it, I'll pay anywhere between five and $10 month. And if I don't use it, I will pay nothing. And so if you notice that people aren't are canceling and they're the same people who aren't using the product, it's probably not a pricing problem.It's probably a product problem.00:48:17 Jacob:Right. I mean, if you're talking about product-market fit and a forever relationship like that, I'm going to pay incident money in terms of my lifetime. Right? Like I'm going to pay 00:48:27 Robbie:Great. Right. And it's, and the thing is that people assume like, so what I would say is if. If you're trying to figure out your first price, I'd say, don't worry about it too much. if you need to do a land, grab like a Spotify priced low and you can raise your price later, although that's hard, but just do it cause you, you want people to adopt your solution.If you're worried about, you know, hurting your core business, And so, you know, then start by pricing really high and you can lower it as you have increased confidence and understanding of use case. But there's a lot of room in there and that's really, my advice is be somewhere in that range. And if people aren't buying it or aren't staying.Look for the other signs of what might be driving it besides pricing, like, is it that they, you know, failure to launch? They never onboarded. They never activated, they never used the best features. is it that they were using it for a while and then their usage trickled off. Maybe they used it up, right?Either they binged or, you know, they've watched everything they've seen, maybe their job changed. So these features are no longer relevant to their work, but really try to be a detective about where the problem is like. it's like you have a party, in a bar you're not making money from the party in the bar. Like before you lower the price at the front door, see like, are people walking by and not recognizing that you have a party, so you have nobody in there because that's an awareness problem or is it that people come in the front door and can't find their way to the food and drink and music. And so they think it's a lame party is that they leave and they never come back.You know, that's an onboarding problem. Is it that they've been eating all the food and dancing to all the music and they're like, I'm tired of these songs. I'm tired of this food, which is a different kind of product problem, product assortment problem. Or is it, I went downstairs to the food and there was no food and the music, you know, the speakers weren't working and that's an operational issue.Right. So fix the problems before you drop the price.00:50:20 David:That's such...00:50:21 Jacob:I mean I think about it, if you have product-market fit, you're going to go this way (up and to the right on the curve). All the price is going to do is maybe define that inflection on that curve. Exponential curves, the slope doesn't matter often all that much in the longterm. You can optimize it eventually, but it's really getting that product-market fit. Then it just takes care of itself.00:50:52 David:That that is a great bit of advice to wrap up on.Your book, The Forever Transaction, is fantastic. Reading it was so fun just to think about—we put our blinders on with this podcast and in the space we work in with apps—but realizing that so many of the ideas that we think about, so many of the problems we work on, are things that are across the entire industry, across all consumer subscriptions, even a lot of overlapping in B2B SaaS.So, it was just so fun reading your book, and then getting to ask you questions here. I had 30 more questions that I wanted to ask you. I could go another hour or two, but I'll, put links to your LinkedIn, to your website, to your Twitter in the show notes.Is there anything else you wanted to share with our audience as we wrap up?00:51:42 Robbie:No, I think we covered a lot. If there's one thing that I want to leave people with, it's this idea that if you start with the promise you're making to your customers, helping them with an ongoing problem, or achieving an ongoing goal that's important to them, and then you optimize your offering around that, your chances of both acquiring and retaining your customers going to go way up.00:52:06 David:Such great advice. Great place to end.You mentioned that there's some extra goodies listeners can get if they click on the link in the show notes, they can get your book and some extra goodies along with that.So, thank you so much for being on the podcast.00:52:22 Robbie:Yeah. A real pleasure.

Romans 9:1-10:4 Introduction:  Paul wishes he could save the Israelites 1-4a God’s way is to give. 4b-5 Revealed his glory Made covenants Gave them the law Gave them the privilege of worshiping Him Gave them his wonderful promises God’s way is to choose us NOT for our good or bad works. 6-13 He chose Abraham He chose Isaac He chose Jacob For his purposes God’s way is to show mercy. 14-29 We can’t work for it We may think it

Worship songs on Apple MusicWorship songs on SpotifyCall to Worship1 Shout for joy in the Lord, O you righteous!Praise befits the upright.2 Give thanks to the Lord with the lyre;make melody to him with the harp of ten strings!3 Sing to him a new song;play skillfully on the strings, with loud shouts.4 For the word of the Lord is upright,and all his work is done in faithfulness.5 He loves righteousness and justice;the earth is full of the steadfast love of the Lord.Psalm 33:1-5Prayer of Invocation“Father, we come before you today by virtue of the sacrifice of Christ Jesus our Lord. We ask that your Spirit would be with us, guide us, fill us, renew us, restore us, and strengthen us in your grace that we would honor and glorify you in all our words and actions. May your Word speak to us and your Spirit use it to transform us more and more into the likeness of Christ. We pray this for your glory and our good and joy. In Christ’s name, amen. ”Song of PraiseCome Ye Sinners ∙ Audio ∙ Chords/Music & LyricsConfession of Sin“Gracious God, we confess that we have longed too much for the comforts of this world. We have loved the gifts more than the giver. In your mercy, help us to see that all the things we pine for are shadows, but you are substance; that they are quicksands, but you are mountain; that they are shifting, but you are anchor. We plead your forgiveness on the merits of Jesus Christ. Accept his worthiness for our unworthiness, his sinlessness for our transgressions, his fullness for our emptiness, his glory for our shame, his righteousness for our dead works, his death for our life. We pray in Jesus’ name. Amen.”Assurance of Pardon11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; 12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us. 13 As a father shows compassion to his children, so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him. 14 For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.Psalm 103:11-14Song of WorshipGod Be Merciful to Me ∙ Audio ∙ Chords/Music & LyricsPrayer of IntercessionTake time as a family to pray for the church, for our leaders, for the world, for the abating of the virus, and other needs you know of. You can always look at the prayer requests in the weekly email.Offering to the LordOne of the ways believers worship when physically gathered is through giving. Currently we can’t do that. Many do,however, give online. If you would like to, you can do so here. Or you may mail a check to our mailing address. (Note: if you are out of work and find yourself in need - please contact our deacons).As a song during this time: The Endless Mercy of Our God ∙ Video/Audio & LyricsScripture Reading27 When Isaac was old and his eyes were dim so that he could not see, he called Esau his older son and said to him, “My son”; and he answered, “Here I am.” 2 He said, “Behold, I am old; I do not know the day of my death. 3 Now then, take your weapons, your quiver and your bow, and go out to the field and hunt game for me, 4 and prepare for me delicious food, such as I love, and bring it to me so that I may eat, that my soul may bless you before I die.”5 Now Rebekah was listening when Isaac spoke to his son Esau. So when Esau went to the field to hunt for game and bring it, 6 Rebekah said to her son Jacob, “I heard your father speak to your brother Esau, 7 ‘Bring me game and prepare for me delicious food, that I may eat it and bless you before the Lord before I die.’ 8 Now therefore, my son, obey my voice as I command you. 9 Go to the flock and bring me two good young goats, so that I may prepare from them delicious food for your father, such as he loves. 10 And you shall bring it to your father to eat, so that he may bless you before he dies.” 11 But Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, “Behold, my brother Esau is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man. 12 Perhaps my father will feel me, and I shall seem to be mocking him and bring a curse upon myself and not a blessing.” 13 His mother said to him, “Let your curse be on me, my son; only obey my voice, and go, bring them to me.”14 So he went and took them and brought them to his mother, and his mother prepared delicious food, such as his father loved. 15 Then Rebekah took the best garments of Esau her older son, which were with her in the house, and put them on Jacob her younger son. 16 And the skins of the young goats she put on his hands and on the smooth part of his neck. 17 And she put the delicious food and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.18 So he went in to his father and said, “My father.” And he said, “Here I am. Who are you, my son?” 19 Jacob said to his father, “I am Esau your firstborn. I have done as you told me; now sit up and eat of my game, that your soul may bless me.” 20 But Isaac said to his son, “How is it that you have found it so quickly, my son?” He answered, “Because the Lord your God granted me success.” 21 Then Isaac said to Jacob, “Please come near, that I may feel you, my son, to know whether you are really my son Esau or not.” 22 So Jacob went near to Isaac his father, who felt him and said, “The voice is Jacob’s voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau.” 23 And he did not recognize him, because his hands were hairy like his brother Esau’s hands. So he blessed him. 24 He said, “Are you really my son Esau?” He answered, “I am.” 25 Then he said, “Bring it near to me, that I may eat of my son’s game and bless you.” So he brought it near to him, and he ate; and he brought him wine, and he drank.26 Then his father Isaac said to him, “Come near and kiss me, my son.” 27 So he came near and kissed him. And Isaac smelled the smell of his garments and blessed him and said,“See, the smell of my sonis as the smell of a field that the Lord has blessed! 28 May God give you of the dew of heavenand of the fatness of the earthand plenty of grain and wine. 29 Let peoples serve you, and nations bow down to you. Be lord over your brothers, and may your mother’s sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you,and blessed be everyone who blesses you!”30 As soon as Isaac had finished blessing Jacob, when Jacob had scarcely gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, Esau his brother came in from his hunting. 31 He also prepared delicious food and brought it to his father. And he said to his father, “Let my father arise and eat of his son’s game, that you may bless me.” 32 His father Isaac said to him, “Who are you?” He answered, “I am your son, your firstborn, Esau.” 33 Then Isaac trembled very violently and said, “Who was it then that hunted game and brought it to me, and I ate it all before you came, and I have blessed him? Yes, and he shall be blessed.” 34 As soon as Esau heard the words of his father, the cried out with an exceedingly great and bitter cry and said to his father, “Bless me, even me also, O my father!” 35 But he said, “Your brother came deceitfully, and he has taken away your blessing.” 36 Esau said, “Is he not rightly named Jacob? For he has cheated me these two times. He took away my birthright, and behold, now he has taken away my blessing.” Then he said, “Have you not reserved a blessing for me?” 37 Isaac answered and said to Esau, “Behold, I have made him lord over you, and all his brothers I have given to him for servants, and with grain and wine I have sustained him. What then can I do for you, my son?” 38 Esau said to his father, “Have you but one blessing, my father? Bless me, even me also, O my father.” And Esau lifted up his voice and wept.39 Then Isaac his father answered and said to him:“Behold, away from the fatness of the earth shall your dwelling be, and away from the dew of heaven on high. 40 By your sword you shall live, and you shall serve your brother; but when you grow restless you shall break his yoke from your neck.”41 Now Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing with which his father had blessed him, and Esau said to himself, “The days of mourning for my father are approaching; then I will kill my brother Jacob.” 42 But the words of Esau her older son were told to Rebekah. So she sent and called Jacob her younger son and said to him, “Behold, your brother Esau comforts himself about you by planning to kill you. 43 Now therefore, my son, obey my voice. Arise, flee to Laban my brother in Haran 44 and stay with him a while, until your brother’s fury turns away— 45 until your brother’s anger turns away from you, and he forgets what you have done to him. Then I will send and bring you from there. Why should I be bereft of you both in one day?”46 Then Rebekah said to Isaac, “I loathe my life because of the Hittite women. If Jacob marries one of the Hittite women like these, one of the women of the land, what good will my life be to me?”Genesis 27Message“God’s Sovereignty Amid Our Schemes”Song of ResponseThy Mercy My God ∙ Lyrics & Video ∙ Chords/Music & LyricsScriptural Benediction24 The Lord bless you and keep you;25 the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;26 the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.Numbers 6:24-26

Why does God share a name with Moses that was not shared with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? For more information about Rabbi Danny, please visit www.RabbiDanny.com The opening and closing music for this podcast is Coming Out of the Dark by Matt Stamm.

How can we see the gospel in the beginning of Exodus? What does Israel's slavery in Egypt, Moses' basket in the Nile, and Pharaoh's infanticide have to do with Jesus? In this first episode of the Spoken Gospel Podcast, David and Seth unpack the biblical background and gospel connections of Exodus chapters 1 and 2. *Correction 10:15-10:55 - "Joseph" is mentioned, when we were actually talking about "Jacob" For more information about Spoken Gospel visit: http://www.spokengospel.com