Podcast appearances and mentions of David Herman

In the final episode of When We All Get to Heaven, we catch up on what's happened in the many years between the emergence of effective treatment for AIDS in the late ‘90s and the fall of 2025, when we recorded this episode. We linger on a moment back in June 1999, when Jim was still pastor and called on the church to remember that AIDS wasn't over. Because—advances notwithstanding—it still isn't over.    For more on Gilbert Baker and the history of the rainbow flag see the  Gilbert Baker Foundation. For more on Prep see San Francisco AIDS Foundation, What is PrEP?  “The Path that Ends AIDS: 2023 UNAIDS Global Update” outlines a possible end to the AIDS epidemic.    The story of Jacob's Ladder is in the book of Genesis chapter 28, verses 10-19. The text for “This is the Day that God Has Made” is biblical with music by Leon C. Roberts. “We are Climbing Jacob's Ladder” is a traditional hymn. “This Little Light of Mine” – text traditional, music by Penelope Gneisen “Song of the Soul” is by Cris Williamson and was sung by her at MCC San Francisco on April 24, 2000.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-10. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. Thanks to Dr. Judy Auerbach of the University of California at San Francisco.  Thanks to Sue Fulton for permission to use “This Little Light of Mine.”  Thanks to Cris Williamson for permission to use “Song of the Soul.”  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation's current website.  Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part.  San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.  POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included). Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.    LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the final episode of When We All Get to Heaven, we catch up on what's happened in the many years between the emergence of effective treatment for AIDS in the late ‘90s and the fall of 2025, when we recorded this episode. We linger on a moment back in June 1999, when Jim was still pastor and called on the church to remember that AIDS wasn't over. Because—advances notwithstanding—it still isn't over.    For more on Gilbert Baker and the history of the rainbow flag see the  Gilbert Baker Foundation. For more on Prep see San Francisco AIDS Foundation, What is PrEP?  “The Path that Ends AIDS: 2023 UNAIDS Global Update” outlines a possible end to the AIDS epidemic.    The story of Jacob's Ladder is in the book of Genesis chapter 28, verses 10-19. The text for “This is the Day that God Has Made” is biblical with music by Leon C. Roberts. “We are Climbing Jacob's Ladder” is a traditional hymn. “This Little Light of Mine” – text traditional, music by Penelope Gneisen “Song of the Soul” is by Cris Williamson and was sung by her at MCC San Francisco on April 24, 2000.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-10. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. Thanks to Dr. Judy Auerbach of the University of California at San Francisco.  Thanks to Sue Fulton for permission to use “This Little Light of Mine.”  Thanks to Cris Williamson for permission to use “Song of the Soul.”  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation's current website.  Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part.  San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.  POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included). Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.    LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the final episode of When We All Get to Heaven, we catch up on what's happened in the many years between the emergence of effective treatment for AIDS in the late ‘90s and the fall of 2025, when we recorded this episode. We linger on a moment back in June 1999, when Jim was still pastor and called on the church to remember that AIDS wasn't over. Because—advances notwithstanding—it still isn't over.    For more on Gilbert Baker and the history of the rainbow flag see the  Gilbert Baker Foundation. For more on Prep see San Francisco AIDS Foundation, What is PrEP?  “The Path that Ends AIDS: 2023 UNAIDS Global Update” outlines a possible end to the AIDS epidemic.    The story of Jacob's Ladder is in the book of Genesis chapter 28, verses 10-19. The text for “This is the Day that God Has Made” is biblical with music by Leon C. Roberts. “We are Climbing Jacob's Ladder” is a traditional hymn. “This Little Light of Mine” – text traditional, music by Penelope Gneisen “Song of the Soul” is by Cris Williamson and was sung by her at MCC San Francisco on April 24, 2000.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-10. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. Thanks to Dr. Judy Auerbach of the University of California at San Francisco.  Thanks to Sue Fulton for permission to use “This Little Light of Mine.”  Thanks to Cris Williamson for permission to use “Song of the Soul.”  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation's current website.  Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part.  San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.  POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included). Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.    LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 1996 everything changed. With the introduction of antiretroviral medications called the “AIDS cocktail,” people started getting better – some dramatically – and surviving AIDS became a real possibility. In the wake of these changes, MCC found itself taking stock of what they lost to AIDS and using what they learned to address larger social issues– from medical marijuana to homelessness. Sometimes these political stances felt heroic and a way to use that collective energy, and other times it made the church very unpopular with the changing Castro neighborhood.    “Freedom is Coming”  is by Anders Nyberg.  “All Things New” is by Rory Cooney. “Blessed Assurance” is by Franny Crosby. “Gloria (Angels We Have Heard on High” is a traditional Christmas hymn.  “The Potter's House” is by V. Michael McKay.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-9. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. Special thanks to Tom Ammiano, Tommi Avicolli-Mecca, Stuart Gaffney, John Lewis, Dr. Jen Reck, Matt Sharp, and Dana Van Gorder for their help with this episode.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups Lyric Center for LGBTQQ+ Youth The Ali Forney Center The Trevor Project's 2022 report on LGBTQ youth and homelessness Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 1996 everything changed. With the introduction of antiretroviral medications called the “AIDS cocktail,” people started getting better – some dramatically – and surviving AIDS became a real possibility. In the wake of these changes, MCC found itself taking stock of what they lost to AIDS and using what they learned to address larger social issues– from medical marijuana to homelessness. Sometimes these political stances felt heroic and a way to use that collective energy, and other times it made the church very unpopular with the changing Castro neighborhood.    “Freedom is Coming”  is by Anders Nyberg.  “All Things New” is by Rory Cooney. “Blessed Assurance” is by Franny Crosby. “Gloria (Angels We Have Heard on High” is a traditional Christmas hymn.  “The Potter's House” is by V. Michael McKay.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-9. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. Special thanks to Tom Ammiano, Tommi Avicolli-Mecca, Stuart Gaffney, John Lewis, Dr. Jen Reck, Matt Sharp, and Dana Van Gorder for their help with this episode.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups Lyric Center for LGBTQQ+ Youth The Ali Forney Center The Trevor Project's 2022 report on LGBTQ youth and homelessness Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 1996 everything changed. With the introduction of antiretroviral medications called the “AIDS cocktail,” people started getting better – some dramatically – and surviving AIDS became a real possibility. In the wake of these changes, MCC found itself taking stock of what they lost to AIDS and using what they learned to address larger social issues– from medical marijuana to homelessness. Sometimes these political stances felt heroic and a way to use that collective energy, and other times it made the church very unpopular with the changing Castro neighborhood.    “Freedom is Coming”  is by Anders Nyberg.  “All Things New” is by Rory Cooney. “Blessed Assurance” is by Franny Crosby. “Gloria (Angels We Have Heard on High” is a traditional Christmas hymn.  “The Potter's House” is by V. Michael McKay.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-9. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. Special thanks to Tom Ammiano, Tommi Avicolli-Mecca, Stuart Gaffney, John Lewis, Dr. Jen Reck, Matt Sharp, and Dana Van Gorder for their help with this episode.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups Lyric Center for LGBTQQ+ Youth The Ali Forney Center The Trevor Project's 2022 report on LGBTQ youth and homelessness Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this candid snack episode, Tracy sits in the interview seat as Miranda explores the practical reality of AI for private practices. Following Tracy's conversation with David Herman about AI in dental marketing, this episode addresses what practice owners are really asking about AI implementation, where these tools genuinely help, and the critical questions to ask before investing time and resources. Tracy shares insights from a recent burnout workshop with Silicon Valley physicians and offers a framework for thinking strategically about technology that supports—rather than replaces—human connection in healthcare.  Click here for full show notes  Episode Highlights  AI's real role in healthcare: Where these tools genuinely help (administrative tasks, scribing) versus where physicians have serious concerns (primary care AI models)  The "band-aid on a fixed system" reality: Why AI tools can reclaim time but don't address the systemic commodification of healthcare delivery  Implementation without drowning: Tracy's framework for introducing new technology when you're already stretched thin, including the time leadership quadrant approach  Real physician experiences: Stories from Tracy's primary care doctor and Miranda's daughter's cardiologist about AI scribing tools reclaiming 3-4 hours weekly  The marketing-systems connection: Why beautiful marketing campaigns fail when practices lack the infrastructure to handle increased inquiry volume  Questions to ask before implementing AI: What end result you want, how to ensure HIPAA compliance, where volume will come from, and whether your team is resourced for success  Memorable Quotes  "It's not about fear of being replaced, it's fear about causing harm."  "The system isn't broken—it's fixed. One quarter of a degree at a time, the temperature has been increased to the point where it became normalized."  "These people go to school for 8, 12 or more years to practice medicine and are now well paid but not well enough for the amount of hours they put in—business administrators, basically admin paper pushers."  "We want all of our providers to be well rested, to have bandwidth, to not have to be reactive all the time. We want that as patients."  "If we're not going to be human, then what's the point?"  "Our clients do not love slowing down, but it's the way that we can gain clarity."  Closing  AI represents both genuine opportunity and potential pitfall for independent practices. The key lies not in whether to adopt these tools, but in approaching implementation with clear strategic thinking about your desired outcomes, team capacity, and practice ecosystem. Before investing in any AI solution, take time to work on your business from that essential 30,000-foot view—because technology without strategy is just expensive noise.  Listen to David Herman: AI in Healthcare: How Technology Makes Patient Care More Human, Featuring David Herman, EP 207  Is your practice growth-ready? See Where Your Practice Stands: Take our Practice Growth Readiness Assessment  Miranda's Bio:  Miranda Dorta, B.F.A. (she/her/hers) is the Manager of Operations and PR at Tracy Cherpeski International. A graduate of Savannah College of Art and Design with expertise in writing and creative storytelling, Miranda brings her skills in operations, public relations, and communication strategies to the Thriving Practice community. Based in the City of Oaks, she joined the team in 2021 and has been instrumental in streamlining operations while managing the company's public presence since 2022.  Tracy's Bio:  Tracy Cherpeski, MBA, MA, CPSC (she/her/hers) is the Founder of Tracy Cherpeski International and Thriving Practice Community. As a Business Consultant and Executive Coach, Tracy helps healthcare practice owners scale their businesses without sacrificing wellbeing. Through strategic planning, leadership development, and mindset mastery, she empowers clients to reclaim their time and reach their potential. Based in Chapel Hill, NC, Tracy serves clients worldwide and is the Executive Producer and Host of the Thriving Practice podcast. Her guiding philosophy: Survival is not enough; life is meant to be celebrated.  Connect With Us:  Be a Guest on the Show  Thriving Practice Community  Schedule Strategy Session with Tracy  Tracy's LinkedIn  Business LinkedIn Page 

In 1995 Rev. Jim Mitulski became HIV positive -- what's known as seroconversion. It was 14 years into the epidemic and people knew what HIV/AIDS was, how you got it, and how you could prevent it. And when Jim got sick, he got very sick. What was it like to become ill so publicly? How would the church and the community respond? And what could Jim possibly preach about on his first Sunday back? “My Soul Doth Magnify” is from Camille Saint-Saens' Christmas Oratorio, Op. 12, 1858. “The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother)” is by Bobby McFerrin.  The biblical story of the death of the prophet Elijah is in Second Kings, chapter 2.    For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-8. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  Thanks to Ed Wolf and Frank DePelisi for talking us through the issues around HIV status and sero-sorting in the mid-1990s.  And thanks to Bobby McFerrin and Linda Goldstein for use of “The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother).” You can see McFerrin conducting his VOCAbuLarieS singers singing the piece here.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: National Resource Center on HIV and Aging – resources for older adults living with HIV.  Surviving Voices – an oral history documentary project on how different communities have experienced HIV and AIDS. The most recent focuses on lifelong and long-term HIV survivors.  Let's Kick Ass – AIDS Survivors Syndrome – support for long-term HIV survivors.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Please enjoy this episode from a podcast we love: When We All Get To Heaven. To share a song pick for the Rock That Doesn't Roll Christmas Special, call ‪(629) 204-4264‬ and leave a message. To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr----In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they've lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church's services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you're a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1.About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named.   When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits.This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels. Thanks to Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid. The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story. 

In 1995 Rev. Jim Mitulski became HIV positive -- what's known as seroconversion. It was 14 years into the epidemic and people knew what HIV/AIDS was, how you got it, and how you could prevent it. And when Jim got sick, he got very sick. What was it like to become ill so publicly? How would the church and the community respond? And what could Jim possibly preach about on his first Sunday back? “My Soul Doth Magnify” is from Camille Saint-Saens' Christmas Oratorio, Op. 12, 1858. “The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother)” is by Bobby McFerrin.  The biblical story of the death of the prophet Elijah is in Second Kings, chapter 2.    For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-8. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  Thanks to Ed Wolf and Frank DePelisi for talking us through the issues around HIV status and sero-sorting in the mid-1990s.  And thanks to Bobby McFerrin and Linda Goldstein for use of “The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother).” You can see McFerrin conducting his VOCAbuLarieS singers singing the piece here.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: National Resource Center on HIV and Aging – resources for older adults living with HIV.  Surviving Voices – an oral history documentary project on how different communities have experienced HIV and AIDS. The most recent focuses on lifelong and long-term HIV survivors.  Let's Kick Ass – AIDS Survivors Syndrome – support for long-term HIV survivors.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 1995 Rev. Jim Mitulski became HIV positive -- what's known as seroconversion. It was 14 years into the epidemic and people knew what HIV/AIDS was, how you got it, and how you could prevent it. And when Jim got sick, he got very sick. What was it like to become ill so publicly? How would the church and the community respond? And what could Jim possibly preach about on his first Sunday back? “My Soul Doth Magnify” is from Camille Saint-Saens' Christmas Oratorio, Op. 12, 1858. “The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother)” is by Bobby McFerrin.  The biblical story of the death of the prophet Elijah is in Second Kings, chapter 2.    For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-8. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  Thanks to Ed Wolf and Frank DePelisi for talking us through the issues around HIV status and sero-sorting in the mid-1990s.  And thanks to Bobby McFerrin and Linda Goldstein for use of “The 23rd Psalm (Dedicated to My Mother).” You can see McFerrin conducting his VOCAbuLarieS singers singing the piece here.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: National Resource Center on HIV and Aging – resources for older adults living with HIV.  Surviving Voices – an oral history documentary project on how different communities have experienced HIV and AIDS. The most recent focuses on lifelong and long-term HIV survivors.  Let's Kick Ass – AIDS Survivors Syndrome – support for long-term HIV survivors.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Scott and Bruce were the hottest couple in church. Scott, a hula dancer, seemed destined for Bruce, the hunky “lumbersexual,” and the church delighted when they got together. Their brief love affair sparkled before Bruce got sick and died. Their story is one of multiple “dress rehearsals”– when friends, family and lovers went through AIDS with their loved ones wondering who would be next and sometimes knowing it might be you.  You can see Scott perform in a 1992 InterPlay piece called “God, Sex and Power” here. He's the one with the bandaids on his knees.  Singing Positive is a two-part documentary film about the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus (SFGMC) and its experience with AIDS that spans 15 years. The first film, which featured Scott, was produced in 1992 and is hard to find online. The second film, produced in 2009, saw the filmmakers return to SFGMC to explore the impact of AIDS on the chorus over time. The 2009 film, with clips of Scott from the first film, is here. And you can watch some amazing SFGMC performances on their YouTube channel here.  Scott's San Francisco hula school was Nā Lei Hulu I Ka Wēkiu. They celebrated their 40th anniversary in 2025. Scott's teacher and friend, Kumu Patrick Makuakāne is in the 2023 cohort of MacArthur Fellows. His recent work includes Māhū, a work by and with trans hula performers.   On the MCC in Hawai'i, see the Queer Histories of Hawai'i's story here.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-7 .  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  “Spirit of the Living God” is by Daniel Iverson. “In the Garden,” also known as “I Come to the Garden Alone” is by C. Austin Miles. It's the favorite hymn of many a Christain mother, aunt, and grandmother. The soloist is Juliette Galuteria, Scott Galuteria and Brickwood Galuteria's mother  “God Prepare Me to Be a Sanctuary” is by Randy Scruggs and John Thompson.   Special thanks to the friends and experts who helped us think through this episode.  Frank DeLuca William Salit and Stan Stone Dr. Rachel Gross Dr. Christopher Cantwell Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: The Hawai'i Health and Harm Reduction Center – reducing the harm and fighting the stigma of HIV in Hawai'i.  International EMS and Firefighter Pride Alliance – courage over adversity.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Scott and Bruce were the hottest couple in church. Scott, a hula dancer, seemed destined for Bruce, the hunky “lumbersexual,” and the church delighted when they got together. Their brief love affair sparkled before Bruce got sick and died. Their story is one of multiple “dress rehearsals”– when friends, family and lovers went through AIDS with their loved ones wondering who would be next and sometimes knowing it might be you.  You can see Scott perform in a 1992 InterPlay piece called “God, Sex and Power” here. He's the one with the bandaids on his knees.  Singing Positive is a two-part documentary film about the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus (SFGMC) and its experience with AIDS that spans 15 years. The first film, which featured Scott, was produced in 1992 and is hard to find online. The second film, produced in 2009, saw the filmmakers return to SFGMC to explore the impact of AIDS on the chorus over time. The 2009 film, with clips of Scott from the first film, is here. And you can watch some amazing SFGMC performances on their YouTube channel here.  Scott's San Francisco hula school was Nā Lei Hulu I Ka Wēkiu. They celebrated their 40th anniversary in 2025. Scott's teacher and friend, Kumu Patrick Makuakāne is in the 2023 cohort of MacArthur Fellows. His recent work includes Māhū, a work by and with trans hula performers.   On the MCC in Hawai'i, see the Queer Histories of Hawai'i's story here.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-7 .  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  “Spirit of the Living God” is by Daniel Iverson. “In the Garden,” also known as “I Come to the Garden Alone” is by C. Austin Miles. It's the favorite hymn of many a Christain mother, aunt, and grandmother. The soloist is Juliette Galuteria, Scott Galuteria and Brickwood Galuteria's mother  “God Prepare Me to Be a Sanctuary” is by Randy Scruggs and John Thompson.   Special thanks to the friends and experts who helped us think through this episode.  Frank DeLuca William Salit and Stan Stone Dr. Rachel Gross Dr. Christopher Cantwell Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: The Hawai'i Health and Harm Reduction Center – reducing the harm and fighting the stigma of HIV in Hawai'i.  International EMS and Firefighter Pride Alliance – courage over adversity.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Scott and Bruce were the hottest couple in church. Scott, a hula dancer, seemed destined for Bruce, the hunky “lumbersexual,” and the church delighted when they got together. Their brief love affair sparkled before Bruce got sick and died. Their story is one of multiple “dress rehearsals”– when friends, family and lovers went through AIDS with their loved ones wondering who would be next and sometimes knowing it might be you.  You can see Scott perform in a 1992 InterPlay piece called “God, Sex and Power” here. He's the one with the bandaids on his knees.  Singing Positive is a two-part documentary film about the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus (SFGMC) and its experience with AIDS that spans 15 years. The first film, which featured Scott, was produced in 1992 and is hard to find online. The second film, produced in 2009, saw the filmmakers return to SFGMC to explore the impact of AIDS on the chorus over time. The 2009 film, with clips of Scott from the first film, is here. And you can watch some amazing SFGMC performances on their YouTube channel here.  Scott was a member of Hālau Nā Kamalei o Līlīlehua (here's a recent video) under the direction of Kumu Hula Robert Uluwehi Cazimero. When he moved to San Francisco, Scott supported his hula brother, Patrick Makuakāne's hula school Nā Lei Hulu I Ka Wēkiu. Patrick's recent work includes Māhū, a production by and with trans hula performers.  On the MCC in Hawai'i, see the Queer Histories of Hawai'i's story here.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-7 .  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  “Spirit of the Living God” is by Daniel Iverson. “In the Garden,” also known as “I Come to the Garden Alone” is by C. Austin Miles. It's the favorite hymn of many a Christain mother, aunt, and grandmother. The soloist is Juliette Galuteria, Scott Galuteria and Brickwood Galuteria's mother  “God Prepare Me to Be a Sanctuary” is by Randy Scruggs and John Thompson.   Special thanks to the friends and experts who helped us think through this episode.  Frank DeLuca William Salit and Stan Stone Dr. Rachel Gross Dr. Christopher Cantwell Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: The Hawai'i Health and Harm Reduction Center – reducing the harm and fighting the stigma of HIV in Hawai'i.  International EMS and Firefighter Pride Alliance – courage over adversity.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Sunday after Magic Johnson announced his HIV-status, Jim Mitulski preached a sermon on being tired of people dying. We're sharing it as an interlude, a pause, and an immersion into one moment in AIDS' bleak midwinter.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/interlude. In the sermon Rev. Mitulski refers to ARC. That means AIDS-Related Complex, a diagnostic category meant to indicate an earlier stage of HIV infection than AIDS. It was common in the period to hear references to both AIDS and ARC.  “Old Devil Time” is by Pete Seeger. The AIDS verses are by MCC San Francisco congregant Paul Francis.  You can see Magic Johnson's press release, announcing his HIV status here.  The biblical passage Rev. Mitulski is preaching on is John 11:1-44. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: AIDS Healthcare Foundation – provides medical care and support for people living with HIV/AIDS and preventative care for people at risk for contracting it.  The Magic Johnson Foundation – founded to address HIV/AIDS. Expanded to include education and community engagement.  San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.  POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Sunday after Magic Johnson announced his HIV-status, Jim Mitulski preached a sermon on being tired of people dying. We're sharing it as an interlude, a pause, and an immersion into one moment in AIDS' bleak midwinter.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/interlude. In the sermon Rev. Mitulski refers to ARC. That means AIDS-Related Complex, a diagnostic category meant to indicate an earlier stage of HIV infection than AIDS. It was common in the period to hear references to both AIDS and ARC.  “Old Devil Time” is by Pete Seeger. The AIDS verses are by MCC San Francisco congregant Paul Francis.  You can see Magic Johnson's press release, announcing his HIV status here.  The biblical passage Rev. Mitulski is preaching on is John 11:1-44. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: AIDS Healthcare Foundation – provides medical care and support for people living with HIV/AIDS and preventative care for people at risk for contracting it.  The Magic Johnson Foundation – founded to address HIV/AIDS. Expanded to include education and community engagement.  San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.  POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Sunday after Magic Johnson announced his HIV-status, Jim Mitulski preached a sermon on being tired of people dying. We're sharing it as an interlude, a pause, and an immersion into one moment in AIDS' bleak midwinter.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/interlude. In the sermon Rev. Mitulski refers to ARC. That means AIDS-Related Complex, a diagnostic category meant to indicate an earlier stage of HIV infection than AIDS. It was common in the period to hear references to both AIDS and ARC.  “Old Devil Time” is by Pete Seeger. The AIDS verses are by MCC San Francisco congregant Paul Francis.  You can see Magic Johnson's press release, announcing his HIV status here.  The biblical passage Rev. Mitulski is preaching on is John 11:1-44. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: AIDS Healthcare Foundation – provides medical care and support for people living with HIV/AIDS and preventative care for people at risk for contracting it.  The Magic Johnson Foundation – founded to address HIV/AIDS. Expanded to include education and community engagement.  San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.  POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included).Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

San Francisco's gay/lesbian community in the 1980s wasn't just facing an AIDS crisis, they also struggled against ongoing  anti-gay violence. In 1989, in the midst of a campaign to legally establish anti-gay violence as a hate crime, MCC San Francisco made headlines when their AIDS minister was attacked in her home. The city, the police department, and the LGBTQ community rallied around the church and the minister. And when they finally solved the puzzle of who did it, the answer shocked the church.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-6. The voices from the service after the first attack include Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “If you come for one of us, you come for all of us.”  Kevin Calegari, Dignity San Francisco – “Somebody by the name of Jesus…” Harry Britt, San Francisco City Supervisor – “It hurts to be reminded of the power of evil.” Gayle Orr-Smith, representative of the Mayor's Office – “I am moved when I hear you say you are an angry people.”  Rev. Duane Wilkerson, United Methodist Church – “But in the event that doubt has crept into your mind…”  Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “And to the enemies who are attacking us…” “The Call” is by George Herber with music by Vaughan Williams. The soloist is Bob Crocker. “Nearer My God to Thee” is by Sarah Flowers Abrams. Some links to good groups Community United Against Violence – still working for safe communities for queer people.  National Alliance on Mental Illness LGBTQI Information Page The Shanti Project - is a pioneering nonprofit that builds human connections to reduce isolation, enhance health and well-being, and improve quality of life. It innovated enduring models of attentive companionship to people facing the end of life through their work during the height of the AIDS crisis.  The Trevor Project – the leading suicide prevention and crisis intervention non-profit organization for LGBTQ+ young people.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  Special thanks to Kelsy Pacha, Dr. Janis Whitlock, and Dr. Mary Hunt for consulting with us about this episode.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

San Francisco's gay/lesbian community in the 1980s wasn't just facing an AIDS crisis, they also struggled against ongoing  anti-gay violence. In 1989, in the midst of a campaign to legally establish anti-gay violence as a hate crime, MCC San Francisco made headlines when their AIDS minister was attacked in her home. The city, the police department, and the LGBTQ community rallied around the church and the minister. And when they finally solved the puzzle of who did it, the answer shocked the church.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-6. The voices from the service after the first attack include Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “If you come for one of us, you come for all of us.”  Kevin Calegari, Dignity San Francisco – “Somebody by the name of Jesus…” Harry Britt, San Francisco City Supervisor – “It hurts to be reminded of the power of evil.” Gayle Orr-Smith, representative of the Mayor's Office – “I am moved when I hear you say you are an angry people.”  Rev. Duane Wilkerson, United Methodist Church – “But in the event that doubt has crept into your mind…”  Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “And to the enemies who are attacking us…” “The Call” is by George Herber with music by Vaughan Williams. The soloist is Bob Crocker. “Nearer My God to Thee” is by Sarah Flowers Abrams. Some links to good groups Community United Against Violence – still working for safe communities for queer people.  National Alliance on Mental Illness LGBTQI Information Page The Shanti Project - is a pioneering nonprofit that builds human connections to reduce isolation, enhance health and well-being, and improve quality of life. It innovated enduring models of attentive companionship to people facing the end of life through their work during the height of the AIDS crisis.  The Trevor Project – the leading suicide prevention and crisis intervention non-profit organization for LGBTQ+ young people.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  Special thanks to Kelsy Pacha, Dr. Janis Whitlock, and Dr. Mary Hunt for consulting with us about this episode.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

San Francisco's gay/lesbian community in the 1980s wasn't just facing an AIDS crisis, they also struggled against ongoing  anti-gay violence. In 1989, in the midst of a campaign to legally establish anti-gay violence as a hate crime, MCC San Francisco made headlines when their AIDS minister was attacked in her home. The city, the police department, and the LGBTQ community rallied around the church and the minister. And when they finally solved the puzzle of who did it, the answer shocked the church.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-6. The voices from the service after the first attack include Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “If you come for one of us, you come for all of us.”  Kevin Calegari, Dignity San Francisco – “Somebody by the name of Jesus…” Harry Britt, San Francisco City Supervisor – “It hurts to be reminded of the power of evil.” Gayle Orr-Smith, representative of the Mayor's Office – “I am moved when I hear you say you are an angry people.”  Rev. Duane Wilkerson, United Methodist Church – “But in the event that doubt has crept into your mind…”  Rev. Troy Perry, Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches – “And to the enemies who are attacking us…” “The Call” is by George Herber with music by Vaughan Williams. The soloist is Bob Crocker. “Nearer My God to Thee” is by Sarah Flowers Abrams. Some links to good groups Community United Against Violence – still working for safe communities for queer people.  National Alliance on Mental Illness LGBTQI Information Page The Shanti Project - is a pioneering nonprofit that builds human connections to reduce isolation, enhance health and well-being, and improve quality of life. It innovated enduring models of attentive companionship to people facing the end of life through their work during the height of the AIDS crisis.  The Trevor Project – the leading suicide prevention and crisis intervention non-profit organization for LGBTQ+ young people.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  Special thanks to Kelsy Pacha, Dr. Janis Whitlock, and Dr. Mary Hunt for consulting with us about this episode.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When Rev. Ron Russell Coons got diagnosed with AIDS he thought a lot about what healing meant when death was certain. He pursued it in his strained and broken family relationships and he preached about it from the pulpit. Though he knew, without a doubt, that he would die from AIDS, Ron claimed that he believed in and had experienced healing. What does healing mean when everybody knows it can't mean survival? Maybe healing is one's biological family and queer kin showing up and reaching for connection across those fractures. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-5. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  “When the Roll is Called Up Yonder” is by James Milton Black.  “Give Me Jesus” is a traditional spiritual arrangement by Charles Ivey. The soloist is Maria Barnet.  “It is Well with My Soul,” also known as “When Peace, Like a River,” is by Horatio Spafford. Thanks to  Ron's family for speaking with us on and off the record. We know this was a stretch and we appreciate it. Dr. Joseph Marchal, for helping us understand Ron's “We Have AIDS” sermon and the biblical text it was based on. It'll be a great special episode one day.  Steve Russell for sharing his memories of Ron and his brother, Chuck Russell Coons. Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When Rev. Ron Russell Coons got diagnosed with AIDS he thought a lot about what healing meant when death was certain. He pursued it in his strained and broken family relationships and he preached about it from the pulpit. Though he knew, without a doubt, that he would die from AIDS, Ron claimed that he believed in and had experienced healing. What does healing mean when everybody knows it can't mean survival? Maybe healing is one's biological family and queer kin showing up and reaching for connection across those fractures. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-5. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  “When the Roll is Called Up Yonder” is by James Milton Black.  “Give Me Jesus” is a traditional spiritual arrangement by Charles Ivey. The soloist is Maria Barnet.  “It is Well with My Soul,” also known as “When Peace, Like a River,” is by Horatio Spafford. Thanks to  Ron's family for speaking with us on and off the record. We know this was a stretch and we appreciate it. Dr. Joseph Marchal, for helping us understand Ron's “We Have AIDS” sermon and the biblical text it was based on. It'll be a great special episode one day.  Steve Russell for sharing his memories of Ron and his brother, Chuck Russell Coons. Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When Rev. Ron Russell Coons got diagnosed with AIDS he thought a lot about what healing meant when death was certain. He pursued it in his strained and broken family relationships and he preached about it from the pulpit. Though he knew, without a doubt, that he would die from AIDS, Ron claimed that he believed in and had experienced healing. What does healing mean when everybody knows it can't mean survival? Maybe healing is one's biological family and queer kin showing up and reaching for connection across those fractures. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-5. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM.  “When the Roll is Called Up Yonder” is by James Milton Black.  “Give Me Jesus” is a traditional spiritual arrangement by Charles Ivey. The soloist is Maria Barnet.  “It is Well with My Soul,” also known as “When Peace, Like a River,” is by Horatio Spafford. Thanks to  Ron's family for speaking with us on and off the record. We know this was a stretch and we appreciate it. Dr. Joseph Marchal, for helping us understand Ron's “We Have AIDS” sermon and the biblical text it was based on. It'll be a great special episode one day.  Steve Russell for sharing his memories of Ron and his brother, Chuck Russell Coons. Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As MCC grew as a denomination, they tried to figure out if and how to relate to other churches. Would any befriend a queer church? And if so, would that friendship help other churches shift their perspective on homosexuality? These questions got harder as AIDS numbers grew—it made people more afraid yet friendship more vital. But sometimes friendship emerges in the most unlikely of places. Like when a children's choir visited an AIDS ward in San Francisco and sang for an MCC member there. That connection started a partnership between their churches that changed them both. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-4. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. “Who Kept Us” is by Dr. Margaret Douroux. “The Wicked Shall Cease” is by Jessy Dixon. “Jesus is Here Right Now” is by Leon Roberts. “Child of God” and “Walk Together Children” are traditional African American spirituals.  Special thanks to Mary Clover Obrzut, Stephen's sister, for insights into his life and for so much great audio. Dr. Cheryl Townsend Gilkes for telling us about Stephen's time at Union Baptist and connecting us with folks there.  Alfred Williams for helping us get connected to Double Rock. Dr. April Parker and Mardy Coates for facilitating the use of “Who Kept Us.”  And to the folks at Double Rock Baptist Church, past and present, especially the beloved Minister of Music.   Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups Balm in Gilead – works to integrate public health and faith principles. It was founded by Dr. Pernessa Seale in to help Black churches address HIV/AIDS and support people and families living with AIDS. Double Rock Baptist Church – is still worshipping and ministering in Bayview/Hunters Point. They were deeply involved in community support during the Covid-19 epidemic.  Love All People – is the ministry that introduced MCC to Margaret Douroux's song, Who Kept Us, to MCC.  National Minority AIDS Council – works for heath equality and racial justice to end the AIDS epidemic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As MCC grew as a denomination, they tried to figure out if and how to relate to other churches. Would any befriend a queer church? And if so, would that friendship help other churches shift their perspective on homosexuality? These questions got harder as AIDS numbers grew—it made people more afraid yet friendship more vital. But sometimes friendship emerges in the most unlikely of places. Like when a children's choir visited an AIDS ward in San Francisco and sang for an MCC member there. That connection started a partnership between their churches that changed them both. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-4. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. “Who Kept Us” is by Dr. Margaret Douroux. “The Wicked Shall Cease” is by Jessy Dixon. “Jesus is Here Right Now” is by Leon Roberts. “Child of God” and “Walk Together Children” are traditional African American spirituals.  Special thanks to Mary Clover Obrzut, Stephen's sister, for insights into his life and for so much great audio. Dr. Cheryl Townsend Gilkes for telling us about Stephen's time at Union Baptist and connecting us with folks there.  Alfred Williams for helping us get connected to Double Rock. Dr. April Parker and Mardy Coates for facilitating the use of “Who Kept Us.”  And to the folks at Double Rock Baptist Church, past and present, especially the beloved Minister of Music.   Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups Balm in Gilead – works to integrate public health and faith principles. It was founded by Dr. Pernessa Seale in to help Black churches address HIV/AIDS and support people and families living with AIDS. Double Rock Baptist Church – is still worshipping and ministering in Bayview/Hunters Point. They were deeply involved in community support during the Covid-19 epidemic.  Love All People – is the ministry that introduced MCC to Margaret Douroux's song, Who Kept Us, to MCC.  National Minority AIDS Council – works for heath equality and racial justice to end the AIDS epidemic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As MCC grew as a denomination, they tried to figure out if and how to relate to other churches. Would any befriend a queer church? And if so, would that friendship help other churches shift their perspective on homosexuality? These questions got harder as AIDS numbers grew—it made people more afraid yet friendship more vital. But sometimes friendship emerges in the most unlikely of places. Like when a children's choir visited an AIDS ward in San Francisco and sang for an MCC member there. That connection started a partnership between their churches that changed them both. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-4. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. “Who Kept Us” is by Dr. Margaret Douroux. “The Wicked Shall Cease” is by Jessy Dixon. “Jesus is Here Right Now” is by Leon Roberts. “Child of God” and “Walk Together Children” are traditional African American spirituals.  Special thanks to Mary Clover Obrzut, Stephen's sister, for insights into his life and for so much great audio. Dr. Cheryl Townsend Gilkes for telling us about Stephen's time at Union Baptist and connecting us with folks there.  Alfred Williams for helping us get connected to Double Rock. Dr. April Parker and Mardy Coates for facilitating the use of “Who Kept Us.”  And to the folks at Double Rock Baptist Church, past and present, especially the beloved Minister of Music.   Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups Balm in Gilead – works to integrate public health and faith principles. It was founded by Dr. Pernessa Seale in to help Black churches address HIV/AIDS and support people and families living with AIDS. Double Rock Baptist Church – is still worshipping and ministering in Bayview/Hunters Point. They were deeply involved in community support during the Covid-19 epidemic.  Love All People – is the ministry that introduced MCC to Margaret Douroux's song, Who Kept Us, to MCC.  National Minority AIDS Council – works for heath equality and racial justice to end the AIDS epidemic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the late ‘80s, two MCC San Francisco ministers wrote an article called “We Are the Church Alive, the Church with AIDS.” We wanted to know how a gay/lesbian church came to call itself “a church with AIDS.” The answers lie in the years before our audio archive begins. So we started asking people. We explore two stories in what's likely a more complicated shift. One story is about a pair of religion geeks who learned to make queer church in New York during the early years of the AIDS crisis and then came to San Francisco to lead MCCSF. And the other is how an Easter Sunday ritual made the Christian hope of life through death viscerally real. “We Are the Church Alive, the Church with AIDS,” by Kittredge Cherry and Jamies Mitulski was published in the Christian Century on January 27, 1988. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-3. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  “We See You God” is a variation on the anonymously written hymn “We See the Lord.” The soloist in “I Lift Mine Eyes Up” is Bob Crocker. It's by Antonin Dvorak, Biblical Songs, Op. 99, no. 9 on Psalm 121.  “Hush, Hush. Somebody's Calling My Name” is a traditional African American spiritual.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation's current website.  Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part.  San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.  POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included). Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.   LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the late ‘80s, two MCC San Francisco ministers wrote an article called “We Are the Church Alive, the Church with AIDS.” We wanted to know how a gay/lesbian church came to call itself “a church with AIDS.” The answers lie in the years before our audio archive begins. So we started asking people. We explore two stories in what's likely a more complicated shift. One story is about a pair of religion geeks who learned to make queer church in New York during the early years of the AIDS crisis and then came to San Francisco to lead MCCSF. And the other is how an Easter Sunday ritual made the Christian hope of life through death viscerally real. “We Are the Church Alive, the Church with AIDS,” by Kittredge Cherry and Jamies Mitulski was published in the Christian Century on January 27, 1988. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-3. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  “We See You God” is a variation on the anonymously written hymn “We See the Lord.” The soloist in “I Lift Mine Eyes Up” is Bob Crocker. It's by Antonin Dvorak, Biblical Songs, Op. 99, no. 9 on Psalm 121.  “Hush, Hush. Somebody's Calling My Name” is a traditional African American spiritual.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation's current website.  Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part.  San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.  POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included). Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.   LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the late ‘80s, two MCC San Francisco ministers wrote an article called “We Are the Church Alive, the Church with AIDS.” We wanted to know how a gay/lesbian church came to call itself “a church with AIDS.” The answers lie in the years before our audio archive begins. So we started asking people. We explore two stories in what's likely a more complicated shift. One story is about a pair of religion geeks who learned to make queer church in New York during the early years of the AIDS crisis and then came to San Francisco to lead MCCSF. And the other is how an Easter Sunday ritual made the Christian hope of life through death viscerally real. “We Are the Church Alive, the Church with AIDS,” by Kittredge Cherry and Jamies Mitulski was published in the Christian Century on January 27, 1988. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-3. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  “We See You God” is a variation on the anonymously written hymn “We See the Lord.” The soloist in “I Lift Mine Eyes Up” is Bob Crocker. It's by Antonin Dvorak, Biblical Songs, Op. 99, no. 9 on Psalm 121.  “Hush, Hush. Somebody's Calling My Name” is a traditional African American spiritual.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation's current website.  Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part.  San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.  POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included). Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.   LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they've lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church's services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you're a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1. About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named.    When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  Thanks to Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid. The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why would an out queer person in the Gay Liberation Days of the 1970s go to church? What church would they go to? And why would they stay? In the 1960s, and ‘70s, the separation between God and gays was not as vast as it seemed. Rev. Troy Perry started the first Metropolitan Community Church in his Los Angeles living room. Tired of flying to LA every week, a Navy veteran started the second one in a San Francisco gay bar. And the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco was there for a young lesbian as she navigated spirituality, coming out, and her increasingly conservative family. When her friend got sick, she tried to be there for him. Church helped.       For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-2. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  Thanks to Dr. Heather White, author of Reforming Sodom: Protestants and the Rise of Gay Rights. Scott Bloom and Trogoidia Pictures for the use of clips from the film Call Me Troy. The Center for LGBTQ and Gender Studies at the Pacific School of Religion and the Graduate Theological Union for the use of an archival recording of Troy Perry's last sermon as the minister at MCC Los Angeles.  Kirke Machem for the use of his beautiful composition, “Blow Ye, the Trumpet,” from the opera, John Brown. Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they've lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church's services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you're a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1. About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named.    When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  Thanks to Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid. The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they've lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church's services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you're a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1. About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named.    When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  Thanks to Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid. The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why would an out queer person in the Gay Liberation Days of the 1970s go to church? What church would they go to? And why would they stay? In the 1960s, and ‘70s, the separation between God and gays was not as vast as it seemed. Rev. Troy Perry started the first Metropolitan Community Church in his Los Angeles living room. Tired of flying to LA every week, a Navy veteran started the second one in a San Francisco gay bar. And the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco was there for a young lesbian as she navigated spirituality, coming out, and her increasingly conservative family. When her friend got sick, she tried to be there for him. Church helped.       For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-2. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  Thanks to Dr. Heather White, author of Reforming Sodom: Protestants and the Rise of Gay Rights. Scott Bloom and Trogoidia Pictures for the use of clips from the film Call Me Troy. The Center for LGBTQ and Gender Studies at the Pacific School of Religion and the Graduate Theological Union for the use of an archival recording of Troy Perry's last sermon as the minister at MCC Los Angeles.  Kirke Machem for the use of his beautiful composition, “Blow Ye, the Trumpet,” from the opera, John Brown. Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they've lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church's services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you're a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1. About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named.    When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  Thanks to Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid. The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why would an out queer person in the Gay Liberation Days of the 1970s go to church? What church would they go to? And why would they stay? In the 1960s, and ‘70s, the separation between God and gays was not as vast as it seemed. Rev. Troy Perry started the first Metropolitan Community Church in his Los Angeles living room. Tired of flying to LA every week, a Navy veteran started the second one in a San Francisco gay bar. And the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco was there for a young lesbian as she navigated spirituality, coming out, and her increasingly conservative family. When her friend got sick, she tried to be there for him. Church helped.       For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-2. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco's archive. It was performed by MCC-SF's musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  Thanks to Dr. Heather White, author of Reforming Sodom: Protestants and the Rise of Gay Rights. Scott Bloom and Trogoidia Pictures for the use of clips from the film Call Me Troy. The Center for LGBTQ and Gender Studies at the Pacific School of Religion and the Graduate Theological Union for the use of an archival recording of Troy Perry's last sermon as the minister at MCC Los Angeles.  Kirke Machem for the use of his beautiful composition, “Blow Ye, the Trumpet,” from the opera, John Brown. Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. Some links to good groups: The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation's current website.  Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part.  San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.  POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included). Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.    LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

David Herman from Web Marketing for Dentists joins us to discuss how dental practices can leverage modern marketing strategies while maintaining the human touch that builds lasting patient relationships. With over 20 years in the industry, David shares insights on why traditional marketing principles still work, how AI is enhancing rather than replacing human connections, and why understanding your specific practice goals is crucial for marketing success.  Click here for full show notes  Key Highlights:  Why Google and SEO aren't actually dead despite industry claims  How AI phone systems can double appointment bookings while reducing front desk burden  The importance of weekend hours and quick response times for new patient acquisition  Why targeting specific procedures and patient types beats generic "get more patients" approaches  The psychology behind dental patient behavior and decision-making  How to measure marketing ROI and ask better questions of your marketing team Memorable Quotes: "We thought at the beginning it was money, but it's not. They also like money, but it's definitely secondary to helping people in the way that they feel they can help people the best."  "Google Ads is mind reading for marketers. There is nothing like it... It's the only mind reading marketing service there is."  "Everything that is monotonous and boring in somebody's job, that's the first place that AI should be employed. Because AI doesn't find it monotonous or boring."  David's approach stands out because he focuses on understanding what kind of dental work each practitioner truly enjoys, then tailors marketing efforts to attract those specific cases. Rather than promising overnight results, he emphasizes sustainable growth and measurable outcomes, making him a valuable resource for practices ready to invest thoughtfully in their marketing efforts.  See Where Your Practice Stands: Take our Practice Growth Readiness Assessment  David's Bio:  David is the Chief Marketing Officer for Web Marketing For Dentists. He holds a Masters in Language & Psycholinguistics from Cambridge University and spent 10 years creating ads for major companies like Procter & Gamble and General Motors before discovering his passion for dental marketing in 2004. Since then, he's worked with over 2,000 dentists across the USA, Canada, and UK, generating more than $30 million in annual production for his clients. His campaigns typically help individual dentists add $10K-100K to their monthly revenue. David leads a team of 30+ dental marketing experts based primarily in Miami, with additional team members across six continents.  Find David:  Website  Facebook  Twitter  See Where Your Practice Stands: Take our Practice Growth Readiness Assessment  Connect With Us:  Be a Guest on the Show  Thriving Practice Community  Schedule Strategy Session with Tracy  Tracy's LinkedIn  Business LinkedIn Page 

David Herman- LinkedInWeb Marketing For Dentists- Website- LinkedIn- Facebook- X / TwitterBob Piercy - host- phone - 780-965-2232- email - rhpiercy@me.com - LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertpiercy/- Website - https://robertpiercy.com- Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/BobPiercyCoTravelPocast

Reporter Jacob Orledge investigates ND oil royalty losses, while Dr. David Herman explains how new funding could help rural hospitals weather Medicaid cuts.

Let's face it — dental marketing has become a jungle. Between rising costs, Google's ever-changing rules, and patients who click but never convert, it's easy to waste thousands without seeing results. In this episode, I sit down with David Herman from Web Marketing for Dentists. David's helped over 2,000 practices generate $50 million in production — and today, he's breaking down how to stop chasing low-value leads and start filling your schedule with patients who want the treatments you love to do. Here's what you'll learn: ✅ Why throwing money at ads doesn't automatically bring in patients ✅ The hidden dangers of a weak online presence ✅ Why video matters more than ever ✅ How to truly track your ROI from Google Ads ✅ What budget you really need for success ✅ Overwhelmed staff and lost leads Your marketing shouldn't be guesswork. Get strategic. Know your numbers. Focus on the procedures you want more of. And remember: every dollar you spend should bring real patients through your door, not just clicks on a screen.   — Key Takeaways 00:41 Introduction and Event Announcement 02:00 Meet David Herman: Expert in Dental Marketing 04:03 Understanding Dental Marketing Challenges 05:35 The Importance of ROI in Marketing 09:22 Building a Strong Online Presence 15:58 Tracking AdWords Results Effectively 19:20 The Science of Google AdWords 22:53 Targeting High-Value Procedures 30:56 Managing Overwhelmed Staff and Leads 34:55 Lightning Round Q&A 38:36 Conclusion and Special Offer   — Connect with David Want David and his team to take your marketing to the next level? Head over to WM4D.com — or the full version, WebMarketingForDentists.com.

In this episode, Ash welcomes David Herman, founder of Web Marketing for Dentists, who draws on over 20 years of dental marketing experience to explain how specialized marketing helps dental practices achieve real returns on investment. David discusses the unique challenges of dental marketing and how his agency uses data-driven strategies, including tracking PMS data and return on investment, to provide transparency and results for clients.David shares examples of quick and significant marketing turnarounds, noting that dentists can expect to see a return on their investment in as little as 30 days. He emphasizes the importance of individualized marketing plans—understanding the dentist's preferred procedures and leveraging patient reviews and targeted content for better SEO. The conversation also covers actionable tips for startups with limited budgets, such as optimizing websites for speed, building out procedure-specific content, and prioritizing Google reviews. David concludes with strategies for balancing pay-per-click and long-term SEO, ensuring dental practices can continue to grow despite rising digital marketing costs.To find out more and connect with David, visit: WebMarketingForDentists.comKey Topics Discussed:Why dental-specific marketing expertise mattersThe challenge of educating dental consumersEnsuring HIPAA compliance in marketing effortsUsing PMS data to track ROI accuratelyHow quickly can dental practices expect results from digital marketingThe agency's unique 30-day contract and trial offerThe importance of individualized marketing by dental procedureValue of video and audio for patient connectionWhat dental procedures are easiest and most profitable to marketWebsite optimization tips for startupsStrategies for getting more Google reviewsDifferences between pay-per-click advertising and SEOLong-term digital marketing considerations for dental practices

Essentia Health CEO Dr. David Herman on regional healthcare issues. Plus, news with Dave Thompson and Matt Olien's countdown of favorite films #20 to #11.

Three company workers who hate their jobs decide to rebel against their greedy boss.Director: Mike JudgeStars: Ron Livingston, Jennifer Aniston, David Herman, Gary Cole, Stephen Root, Ajay Naidu=====Follow The Tracklist on Instagram ⁠⁠⁠⁠@tracklistshow⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Chris Saunders on Instagram ⁠@chrissaunders_music⁠Follow Daron Jenkins on Instagram ⁠@thedaronjenkins⁠=====Support the podcast - Grab one of our stylish Hoodies or T-Shirts!Visit our Merch Shop: ⁠⁠https://tracklist-shop.fourthwall.com⁠⁠

As we grow up, there are little windows of time when we can learn very, very fast, and very, very deeply. Scientists call these moments, critical periods. Real, neurological, biological states when our brain can soak up information like a sponge. Then, these windows of learning close. Locking us in to certain behaviors and skills for the rest of our lives. But … what if we could reopen them? Today, we consider a series of discoveries that are reshaping our understanding of when and how we can learn. And what that could mean for things like PTSD, brain disease, or strokes. And cuddle puddles. It's a mind-bending discussion. Literally and figuratively.This is the second episode in an ongoing series hosted by Molly Webster, in conversation with scientists and science-y people, doing work at the furthest edges of what we know. You can find the first episode here. More to come! Special thanks to Gül Dölen, at the University of California, Berkeley, along with researcher Romain Nardou. Plus, Charles Philipp and David Herman.We have some exciting news! In the “Zoozve” episode, Radiolab named its first-ever quasi-moon, and now it's your turn! Radiolab has teamed up with The International Astronomical Union to launch a global naming contest for one of Earth's quasi-moons. This is your chance to make your mark on the heavens. Vote on your favorites starting in November: https://radiolab.org/moonEPISODE CREDITS: Hosted by - Molly WebsterReported by - Molly WebsterProduced by -Sindhu Gnanasambandan with help from - Timmy Broderick and Molly WebsterOriginal music and sound design contributed by - Dylan Keefewith mixing help from - Jeremy BloomFact-checking by - Emily Kriegerand Edited by  - Soren WheelerEPISODE CITATIONS:Science Articles -Gul's 2019 paper: Oxytocin-dependent reopening of a social reward learning critical period with MDMA  (https://zpr.io/wfQjeA6PGCBv) on the feel-good brain chemical oxytocin, and how it reopens social reward learning when combined with MDMA.Gul's 2023 paper: Psychedelics reopen the social reward learning critical period (https://zpr.io/TKDKEwiLwGRN) on the role of psychedelics in social reward learning. Sign-up for our newsletter. It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)!Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today.Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing radiolab@wnyc.org.Leadership support for Radiolab's science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

Donald Trump is trying to distance himself from it. Joe Biden wants you to Google it. Semafor's Shelby Talcott explains what's going on with the conservative plan for a second Trump presidency. This episode was produced by Avishay Artsy, edited by Matt Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by David Herman, and hosted by Noel King and Sean Rameswaram. Transcript at vox.com/today-explained-podcast Support Today, Explained by becoming a Vox Member today: http://www.vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

India's prime minister suffered a humiliating win this week. Vox's Zack Beauchamp explains a shocking election. This episode was produced by Peter Balonon-Rosen, edited by Miranda Kennedy, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by David Herman and Andrea Kristinsdottir, and hosted by Noel King. Transcript at vox.com/today-explained-podcast Support Today, Explained by becoming a Vox Member today: http://www.vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When it comes to immigration solutions, the federal government is handing out lemons. Denver Mayor Mike Johnston is making lemonade. This episode was produced by Hady Mawajdeh, edited by Matt Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by David Herman and Andrea Kristinsdottir, and hosted by Sean Rameswaram. Transcript at vox.com/today-explained-podcast Support Today, Explained by becoming a Vox Member today: http://www.vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The murder of George Floyd and the protests that followed looked like a turning point in the fight against systemic racism. Except, as Vox's Fabiola Cineas explains, it wasn't. This episode was produced by Victoria Chamberlin, edited by Amina Al-Sadi, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by David Herman and Andrea Kristinsdottir, and hosted by Sean Rameswaram. Transcript at vox.com/today-explained-podcast Support Today, Explained by becoming a Vox Member today: http://www.vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The AP's Megan Janetsky and Falko Ernst of the International Crisis Group explain how Mexico's first woman president will inherit and address the cartel problem that plagued her predecessors. This episode was produced by Denise Guerra, edited by Matt Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by David Herman and Andrea Kristinsdottir, and hosted by Sean Rameswaram. Transcript at vox.com/today-explained-podcast Support Today, Explained by becoming a Vox Member today: http://www.vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Aaron Rigsby has built a career out of documenting tornadoes, hurricanes, and other extreme weather up close. So he's seen just how much more extreme those storms are becoming. This episode was produced by Avishay Artsy, edited by Amina Al-Sadi, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by David Herman and Andrea Kristinsdottir, and hosted by David Pierce. Transcript at vox.com/today-explained-podcast Support Today, Explained by becoming a Vox Member today: http://www.vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices