Podcast appearances and mentions of ken what

A Systematic Approach to Business With Ken Lundin We all know that sales are important, and sometimes people look at that as if it's a yucky word, but we're always selling ourselves in one way or another, whether it's to find that beautiful lady, beautiful man, or whatever the situation is, we all need to know how to sell ourselves. We've got Ken Lundin from Ken Lundin and Associates to talk about the systematic approach to business. We all know that sales are important, and sometimes people look at that as if it's a yucky word, but we're always selling ourselves in one way or another. Whether it's to find that beautiful lady, beautiful man, or whatever the situation is, we all need to know how to sell ourselves.  We've got Ken Lundin from Ken Lundin and Associates to tell us more about a systematic approach to business. Key Takeaways: Do your buyers know your value? What's the big pain that you actually solve? Value development versus commoditization: what does "selling on value" mean?  How to increase your profitability ratio? Find out the real reason that your customers stay with you, market to that, and sell with that.  Why does sales training fail? Focus on what you can control and change the way you buy sales consulting.  How to Calculate Sales Growth Over 5 Years How do you calculate sales growth and particularly what should be the timeframe? Ken: I think what I like to measure is the impact. Do you have an individual who's in a leadership position or a management position who's making an impact with what they're doing? We call that Alpha. We steal that from an investment term for investment management. Ken: Alpha is literally like this. If your industry is growing at 10%, are you growing at above 10%? Because the difference between the industry is just organic growth, and what you're growing at is the rate that you're capturing more market share. From that perspective, you've got to put the right things in place. Ken: Typically, when we talk about time frames, we ask what are we going to do now? What are we going to do in 3 months, 6 months, a year? And then what should we look at in 2 years. The process of putting sales in place, it's typically a year's process with iterations after that.  Obviously, there are lots of things that come into the sales process. If you've looked at people such as Jordan Belfort, it's all about tonality and looping. Is it more about having a strategy around it rather than talking in a certain way like you've got a secret? What is the sales strategy? How would you comprise it? Ken: Probably the number one mistake that companies make is they don't realise how the product is actually impacting the client or the customer because they think their product matters. Ken: An example of the number one thing that you've got to figure out is what's the big pain that you actually solve? Let's say you're selling software or IT services. If you're trying to sell $50,000 software or a subscription and you're saying you can give a better report, no executive will wake up one day and think he should spend $50,000 to have a prettier report in a different font. Ken: Executives will spend $50,000 at this moment if that means a way to better run my business with better data and make better decisions that will lead to revenue growth, expense decreasing, etc. Changing fonts to Comic Sans doesn't win anyone's heart. It's definitely about solving people's problems, not looking at what they need, but instead looking at what they want and how you are going to better reflect that. As business efficiency experts, we are all about making their business more efficient. The fulcrum that we use is technology, but that doesn't mean that that's the only one out there. How to Write a Sales Strategy From a sales perspective, what are the key ingredients that you would need to leverage systemization and to be the right person to be able to sell your product in business? Ken: You can look at it from a couple of perspectives. First, am I doing it right? What are my customer acquisition costs? How much does it require me to get a customer? Ken: Second, what's the lifetime value of my customer? Do I actually have add-on processes? Ken: Ultimately, what we're trying to figure out is how do we put in a process that's customer-centric, about solving their problem, and helping them realise the problems they don't even know they have. One of the biggest fallacies you're going to see right now is that the buyer is 67% of the way through the journey before they actually talk to a salesperson. Ken: Here's the problem: if you believe that in business, you would decide that you no longer have to provide value or sell. It's like going to the doctor because your back hurts, and then the doctor asks you to walk to the door and tells you that you don't have a back problem but your knee is messed up. In business, the buyer usually comes in because they're trying to cure the symptom, instead of the actual problem. Ken: That's why you have to build a sales process that helps the buyer understand how to analyse the problem and how to figure out what the latent pain is, not the pain they walked in with, but what's the real problem that they need to solve. It sounds like there's a lot of psychology that goes into understanding someone else's problem, putting your head into the mind of your buyer. From our experience in business, we've seen that that is very difficult to do. Many years ago, we used to do web design and we had business owners tell us what looked good and what didn't. They're not their client, and they're not doing the voodoo that we do. How to Help Your Buyer Realise Your Value How do you make sure that you jump into the right mindset? Is it best if you've got a few clients telling you why they are working with you? How do you make sure that you're finding those golden nuggets, the reason that the knee is broken as opposed to the back? Ken: I think we're in such a hurry to get revenue for the wrong reasons. Early on in the cycle of our business called the launch phase, which is about product-market fit, some think they should be producing revenue in order to get feedback. Ken: If you hurry through the product-market fit where you don't understand the customers' real problems or issues, when you install the process of sale, you can still sell some stuff but: [bullet point] you're selling it at lower margins [bullet point] you have a higher cost of acquisition  [bullet point] you're having more stress within the buying cycle Ken: Ultimately, when you start to talk about being efficient about this, it's the ability to be okay with slowing down to speed up, slowing down to go big. We were in business, booming and going crazy, back in 2010 when we had a bit of a recession. We grew too big too quickly. One of our key employees had a stroke, and the end result was the team not having enough capacity so we had to start shedding clients. That would have been better if we had processes in place, which now we do, but we didn't at that stage because we grew too quickly to create the processes because we were too focused on the sale. That would be probably a good example of what not to do, and I've learnt the hard way and how to do it properly.  Ken: I think that's fair to say. I think the big issue there is sometimes it may not be slowing down as it may be focusing. Let's be efficient with our efforts and let's decide what are the most critical things that you need to address in order. We often talk about going left to right. We do the first thing and then the second thing. Businesses do the first thing, the 12th thing, the 6th thing, the 7th thing, and they forget the third and fourth. What Does "Selling on Value" Mean If you're going to be making sure that you're selling in the right way, you're talking to people, and you're selling on the right things, price becomes a factor when it shouldn't, especially if you can monetise your products and you're selling exactly the same thing as your competitor. Here we have Burger King and Hungry Jacks, which have exactly the same franchise model, same business, same logo, different words. Both nearly like a cookie-cutter copy of McDonald's. There's very little difference between the products that they're selling and they're both competing, to a degree, on price. What does selling on value mean? How do you make sure that you're selling on the values that your clients want? Ken: For years, I have been looking for a way to really try to show people what value development means versus commoditization. You just gave me the leverage to do that. Thank you!  Ken: Hungry Jacks and Burger King are a perfect example of how you allow commoditization to happen and what your business may be doing wrong. Think about it: that's kind of a walk up and take an order—we all have buns, we all have meat, we have cheese on it, and we have a price. Ken: Unfortunately, that's how the vast majority of businesses in the world present their products. Think about the difference of an experience, though. If you walk in and somebody is actually going to talk you through it. Ken: That burger at Hungry Jacks or Burger King might even be better quality than the one that I'm getting down the street from the craft burger place, but they're asking me what I want, they're having a conversation with me, and I'm paying almost twice as much for that. Ken: Same thing in B2B sales and B2B servicing. If you want to let the client walk themselves through a do-it-yourself process, you're going to have commoditization and price value problems all the time. On the other hand, if you're going to create a process where you actually get to have conversations and expose the things that they truly want and need in their business, you can increase your prices and your margins. Is it ok to have a hybrid model? What we've done for the last few months is we've looked across all of our competitors and we've looked at what they're doing and what they're selling. We've commoditized exactly what they're doing and selling and then dropped the price by 10% to 15% even if we're not making any money on it. Even if we're losing a portion of money on it, we know that if they're coming to us for that, any of the other professional services that we offer, we've already put them in a position where they know, like and trust us. If they've already looked at prices across the board and then they see these guys selling in markets $1 to $6 cheaper than the other guys, they will go with them. We've called it "Would you like fries with that?" model because we know that they're going to be interested in the first thing but it's opening up the conversation to then sell them other things, the same as when you get a junk mail in the post. All the things that are on special generally have these add-ons, which is where they make money. Is that hybrid approach okay or are there some sort of pitfalls that people should be aware of? Ken: The answer is it depends. Look at the home printer market as an example. Right now, I think if I sign up for Office Depot, Staples or any kind of office loyalty card, they'll give me a printer for free, but they make money on the ink. Then they charge you $50 for the ink to go in the printer.  Ken: Yes, the model works as long as you know the lifetime value of your customers. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. If you do less than break even on the initial acquisition of the customer and then you don't know what your actual ability to sell is, you don't know how often they actually buy from you afterwards, or how often they add on services. It's a pretty risky play. It's like gambling and playing craps. Ken: On the other hand, we have a customer that does mobile application development for Fortune 1000 companies. We know that they're going to sell seven figures once they get somebody in the door, so I kidded with them and I said, "Sell them supersize fries because once you get them in, they're buying seven figures." Ken: But I found that it depends. The only way I'd say to do that is if your sales cycle on the front end is very short, doesn't require you to do a lot of selling, it's futures based and you're okay with that. It's very automated so you're not wasting people's time. You don't want to be spending time on things unless it's really bringing a lot of money. When you've got this situation where you've got this hybrid environment, are there things you should be aware of? Obviously, you don't have to say yes to every customer. I think that's important. We've all seen and dealt with low-lying fruits, bottom feeders, Karens, and people who are just looking at the dollarydoos and don't care about anything else. If they come through the door, is it okay to say no? In that printer example, is it okay to not sell them a printer because you know they're never going to buy ink from you? Or should you still keep face and sell to everyone and stuff up your 80:20 ratio and have more of that 80% you don't care about? Ken: There's no such thing as a good bad deal. Go with your gut, and make sure that you have a look at what the potential is for that customer. Don't just sell them just for the sake of it. Don't give them supersize fries if you don't see them buying a burger. How to Increase Profitability Ratio If you've already been selling a bit and your business is going well, hopefully you have your work-life balance in check, but you're looking to better things and the only way you can do that is by increasing staff or increasing the profitability ratio. If we focus on just how to increase the profitability ratio, how would you go about doing that? Ken: When you talk about the profitability ratio, I think most people are priced too low to begin with because they don't spend enough time trying to figure out the big problem that's actually solved. Ken: If you want to increase your profitability ratio, ask your customers who've been with you for any period of time the following questions: [bullet point] Why did you originally decide to work with us? [bullet point] Why did you decide to buy our products or services? [bullet point] What would have you kicking and screaming if we took it away from you? Ken: Most of the time, businesses miss the real reason that their buyers want to stay with them. Find that, market to that, and sell with that. That will move up your profitability ratio substantially. It's a very easy way to do it, isn't it? If you find out what the carrot is and what the fire is, at least you know what's having them move toward you. That's something that you could then use to create sales, sales group content, no market towards the same customers. You'd only go to obviously the top 20 that you want to work with, your A-grade clients, to do that.  Why Sales Training Fails We've spoken a lot about different ways that you can better your sales process. In what ways have you seen that sales training fails? I've covered off a little bit about Jordan Belfort and his sales persuasion stuff. People sometimes get caught up in these 6-hour master classes where they think they're going to jump out of there and start the next Wall Street franchise. Why do sales training fail? What are the things that you've seen that people should just stop doing or alternatively, what should they start doing?  1. Focus on What You Cannot Control  Ken: Focus on what you can actually control. Oftentimes, we think about our business and we think about if this would happen, if this could occur, and so on. Focus on what you can control. Ken: And push the accountability of what your individual employees or salespeople can control. They can control the number of conversations that they have. They can control the number of first meetings they have. 2. Do Sales Training in Small Bites Ken: Second, from a sales training perspective, you actually have to understand that sales training has to be done in small bites. It's my belief that the world of sales training has failed business. Ken: There's something called the Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve, which says that you'll forget 77% of everything you learn in 7 days. Are you paying people thousands and thousands of dollars to come in for a two-day training to fix your people? That's the fire. Burn the cash and then spend it on carrots. Ken: We use a process called Habit Stacking. I got the terminology from somebody else so attribution to whoever it was. We don't do one- or two-day deals. We do two hours of training in January, two hours in February, two hours in March, and so on. Ken: In between those training sessions, we back it up with coaching to help get the behaviour to change. The number one thing that you need to know about making your team better is it has nothing to do with training. It has everything to do with behaviour change. Ken: If you say “what can I do to get behaviour change out of my salespeople to make them more successful for our business?”, that will flip your mindset and change the way that you look at how you can actually increase your sales. How to implement efficiency processes? A lot of people in the B2B sector can be in professional services or selling a product. Generally, they have the people that are on the coalface of business.  Ken: Everyone should care about sales, but everyone is not in sales. If you have people that are on a support desk or answering the phone, how do you make sure that her behaviour has changed into something that aligns with the company's core beliefs to ultimately produce more revenue and have a longer period of client retention? Ken: You have to have people who you have to have a culture that cares about the ultimate client experience, which has to be the thing. As long as that's true, everybody can pull the wagon the same way. Change the Way You Buy Sales Consulting Make sure that you do have these sorts of things in place. I know that you've brought in efficiency processes and made sure that you've got a systematic approach to be able to have people in line and have people accountable. Tell me a little bit about how you implement that for businesses. Ken: We've done something that's very different. One of the things we figured out a year ago was that people were buying sales training and coaching and they're trying to fix the symptom. It's like they're driving down the road and they have four flat tires and they were asking us to fix one. But if we change a tire, it's still a bumpy ride. Ken: What we find is that our sales training and coaching strategy, as well as process work, need to be delivered on a monthly basis. That makes small changes and tweaks because that's the only way you get long-term behaviour change for your staff, your leadership, etc. Ken: We look at the world very differently. We want to do small changes because we are interested in long-term behaviour change. We try to take a holistic approach. I couldn't agree with you more on that one. As business efficiency experts in business, we look at micro changes to make macro differences. We look at shaving minutes of every employee to save hours for your whole team. Don't change things that aren't within your control. Use your resources and become resourceful with those resources. It takes 21 days or longer to start a routine. I learned in hypnotherapy that you'd need to do something for at least 21 days or 21 times. After you get to the 65-day mark, it becomes autonomous with what you're doing. You can't do that in a 6-day sales training or 2-day blastoff workshop. It has to be something that's done over time with an accountability process where you're able to bring it back to your staff, and change the way that you're buying sales consulting. It's something that is identical to sales as a service (SaaS). How would you frame how you should buy sales? Ken: I have an aversion to calling anything "a service" because it seems like the lazy man's way out. Everybody is like, "I want to reinvent my business. I'm dry-cleaning as a service." Suddenly everybody's got a SaaS business. Ken: What we say is "You get everything we've got and it's a subscription plan for a flat fee." We're able to do what would cost about twice as much in total dollars for half as much in monthly spend because we can set it up, we can put our team on it instead of an individual consultant who bills hourly. You call it what you may, but we call it impactful. It helps you plan your business because you're able to make sure your staff is fully utilised. That means that people aren't sitting in seats waiting for calls or waiting for people to call, which means you can pass those efficiencies onto your clients. It's a better system for everyone when you're able to have a predictive income and they have predictive spends and they know what their outcomes are going to be. Ken: It allows us to slow down or go fast too because we do a 3-month entry and then it's 6-month renewals after that.  Conferences are a waste of time. You go to a conference and you think you've got to change your business, and then a week later, you've gone back into the same mundane routine that you're always in because it wasn't something that you had anyone helping you out and guiding you through. [insert the "conference is a waste of time" video] It's Okay to Be Wrong  It's okay to be wrong. It's okay to fail. That's something that I learnt after leaving school, which I kick myself for doing so. I remember sitting in the advanced math class after I missed two weeks and I didn't know what the hell they were talking about but I was too embarrassed to put my hand up to learn. Then I was missing 3 weeks, 4 weeks, and 5 weeks; I was so behind I couldn't catch back up. If you have a question, ask the question. It's okay to be wrong. We all do it. That's something that everyone needs to be more aware of. Dorks Delivered's Worst and Best Year In 2020, the COVID year, we had our worst year in 10 years. We've been in business for 14 years, and most people in the technology space are kicking goals. We stuffed up.  There was the G20 back in 2013 in Brisbane, and we had put in processes so that everyone could work from home securely. That was part of our onboarding process. When COVID hit and everyone had to work from home, we already had it in place, whereas other IT businesses were putting out projects and cashing in on it. We stuffed up there, but all of our clients were so appreciative of it. The moment their businesses bounced back is looking to be the best year that we've ever had in business.  Where are vendors' responsibilities? A lot of the time, there are products that we're selling or that we require in business to leverage whether that be for our business backup type of things or for your business, like Salesforce, CRM systems, and Xero. Where do you think the vendors' responsibility sits with ultimately selling their products? Do you think they should have any say in it? Do you think they need to step up their game, given that our business's success ultimately drives their success? Or do you think that it's just "you package it up however you want it to look?" Ken: I think at the end of the day, they have a responsibility to represent their product and train the people who sell their product depending on the kind of the lift. As an example, if they are not helping you at all, whatever that product is or the channel partner is, then they should be paying you a lot more than everybody else. Ken: On the other hand, if they're providing you a substantial amount of backup, resources and other things, then maybe that's not the case because they're actually investing in your success. I think when I look at our channel partnerships, I'll take the least amount of money to be a part of the partnerships that I'm most fond of. Because you believe in the product and the positioning, and they've probably got enough backing to be out to support you. Ken: Absolutely, because that's the idea of outsourcing to gain efficiency and leverage. Recommended Book: Obviously Awesome by April Dunford If there was a book that would help our listeners to be better at sales, what would that be? Ken: Don't read any sales books. Here's the problem. When people read sales books, everything they read about sales was written 30 years ago or earlier. Ken: The sales books that we read all used very common concepts using different languages. If you're not educated in the actual process of sales and how to sell, you read these sales books and you think they're saying different things. You end up in a zig-zagging pattern of trying to implement what you read in the latest book, and you change it even though all it should have done was reinforce what you've already done. Ken: Unless you have the ability to group things in context, I don't think reading sales books is a very good way to actually figure out how to do sales because it confuses most people. Ken: I'll tell you a cool book I read recently, which helps you think about how to be creative and figure some stuff out, gives you some positioning. And that's called Obviously Awesome by April Dunford. She's based in Canada, and she's the go-to for small businesses.  You're right, there are a lot of books that talk about how to do, not what to do, and not things that are actually actionable. When it does boil down to it, most of the time it's just about taking the first step and that's most of the time the hardest. Ken: "Done is better than perfect." I love that because as an engineer, one of the biggest problems that I find is I do 95% planning and 5% execution. Have you heard of the "ready, fire, aim" concept? I'm getting better at this, but I find it very difficult.  There are different ways that you can help businesses. Tell us more about it.  Ken: We have a 3-month start and then a 6-month renewal. Our average client stays with us for probably a year and a half. They can come in and just see if we actually know what we're saying for the first three months and then at the end of the first three months, we will automatically renew for six months to continue the engagement. Jump onto Ken Lundin and Associates!  The podcast is called Business Built Freedom. It's different for everyone. What is the vehicle of business or what is business built freedom to you? Ken: Choices. Options. People say, I want to make money, I want to make a million, I want to do this or that. Business freedom is about creating options because there's nothing worse in life than not having options. Just look at last year with COVID when most of our options were taken away globally. It definitely helped people think laterally and out of the books. I like that: choices and options. A lot of the time, if you're working for someone else, you're doing it by whatever the man has said. You don't necessarily have as many choices and options.  Ken: I think at the end of the day, the idea of being efficient has to transcend every piece of your business because that's how you actually will squeeze the most value out of it. Whether you're running a lifestyle business or an enterprise business, you have to ask: are we being efficient? When you say yes or no, you have to know how you actually measured it. Whether it's sales operations or your IT systems, understand how to get the measurement to answer the question the right way instead of just answering it with your gut. If you have any feedback, comments or love to give, please jump across to iTunes. Stay good. Stay healthy out there.   

Ken: We have Carrie Mikell, Carrie is a mother of 3 children ages 6-1 and has been married to the love of her life for over 7 years. She has a bachelor's degree in business with an emphasis in finance from Brigham Young University and has been working in the financial services industry for over ten years now. Previously she focused her attention on high-net-worth retirees but recently decided she finds more joy in helping younger families achieve their dreams. When Carrie isn't working on her business or cleaning up after her three small children, she can often be found in the great outdoors enjoying nature and taking her children on grand adventures. Welcome to the Show Carrie Carrie: It's important to say that I'm first and foremost passionate about life's adventures. I've traveled the world, lived and worked in 5 different countries, climbed mountains and repelled down 250ft cliffs to see sights very few people get to see, etc. I wrote my first bucket list when I was 16 and have been checking things off ever since. I've only been able to do this because of the personal finance principles I learned early on. As such, I've gained an additional passion in helping individuals and young families achieve their dreams, and I do this through sound financial coaching. As someone who is naturally logical and pragmatic, I enjoy the strategizing and quantitative work. I'm also greatly enjoying building my team, specifically focusing on incredibly talented women. I feel that I'm in a unique position to widen the world of financial consulting and make it more inclusive. Ken: What is the toughest thing you have had to overcome in your life? Carrie: It's a long mess of a story, but I was essentially homeless during my senior year of high school. Getting myself through school and supporting myself financially -- especially at that age -- was a major struggle, but one that has helped shape me into who I am today. We also talked about What is the biggest goal you are working on right now? Many people have fear and secrecy around money. Why is that and how do they get past it? If there were only three truths that you leave for this world and your posterity, what 3 truths would you leave for them that could lead them to have an amazing life? My knowledge, hopefully a little more peace and understanding, opportunities. We really aren't a family that focuses on obtaining things but we are big on experiences and we hope that those experiences give our children and others a greater understanding of all the good and beauty there is out there in the world. What is the best way for folks to connect with you? Carrie Mikell, ChFC | LinkedIn Please subscribe to this podcast and leave a rating and review, to help others find this podcast. Also join the Facebook group. Here is the spot to click and set up a time so we can discuss how you can use these tools and others to get your amazing life! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/support

We have Johnnie Urban with Wonderful Life Learning Company and Sensitive Authentic Speaker. Johnnie helps people power their message, attract clients. She makes a difference by teaching people to convert easily and expand their business. Welcome to Your amazing Life, Johnnie thanks for being here Ken: Tell us who you were in the beginning and how you got to where you are now? Johnnie: A new highly certified Life Success Coach struggling to grow my business. I was told to network and tell everyone I knew that I could help them. It was exhausting going all over the place for my message to fall on deaf ears. I decided that I needed to learn some public speaking skills and messaging so I would be able to grow my coaching business easier. Going from speaking to one person at a time to many people at once was brilliant. Ten years ago, several coaches asked me to hold a class and teach them what I knew. I never thought I'd still be teaching it today. Ken: What was the most “uncomfortable” or difficult change you had to make? Johnnie: Accepting that my body is different now. It's never going to go back to the way it was before. I was angry at everyone and anything. It was important that I must forgive my body for what I perceived was letting me down. When in reality it actually gave me a better life. Ken: Do you have any skills or talents that most people don't know about? Johnnie: I am an open book. Yet recently I realized that I love treasure hunting, always have. I can see things other people miss. The one thing I don't share much with people is that I can actually see and feel people and animal energy. I use this skill when I am working with people to be able to help them at a deeper level. I have talked with you about the importance of nutrition in many of our episodes. Goto https://kengerber.kyani.com/ Ken: What does it take to have an amazing life? Johnnie: Mindset. Non-Negotiable sense of humor. Ken: If you could only leave three statements for this world and your kids what three things would you leave? Johnnie: Stick with the mentors who bring out your greatness not your crazy! There is always a way! Johnnie: Places we can find you: LinkedIn: Johnnie Urban Mentor, FB/Instagram Johnnie Urban Mentor, Ken: Johnnie I want to recognize you for being authentic. You then show others how to be authentic and to bring out their best selves. We need that today. Please subscribe to this podcast and leave a rating and review, to help others find this podcast. Also join the Facebook group. Here is the spot to click and set up a time so we can discuss how you can use these tools and others to get your amazing life! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/support

Ken: We have Christopher Salem, today and I am so excited about this. Christopher is an Executive Coach, Corporate Trainer, Amazing Keynote speaker, Radio show host, and an international best seller award winning writer. Welcome to the Show Christopher! What was it that happened that started this journey for you? Christopher: This goes back 22 years ago roughly almost 22 years ago today. I had a life-changing moment that happened between myself and my father. You know prior to that my life was really out of control, my business was up and down. I lived in the effect of the issues I was dealing with. I was constantly in fight or flight mode. I had struggled 12 years from addiction, at the time. I just thought I was just dealt the wrong deck of cards and that's how I felt. I was a victim of life and I didn't really understand how to go about and navigate. I did know I grew up codependently in a dysfunctional home. I just knew my life wasn't working out. what I knew now all of this is in hindsight I didn't know what was going on other than my life wasn't working out. I was struggling with 12 years of addiction to alcohol, sex, and drugs. As a result of that this life changing event was my father had been diagnosed with cancer and he was given a year-and-a-half to live. He ended up dying 4 months into his diagnosis. I remember the day before he died, I remember him looking over at me but he couldn't talk. His eyes were somewhat open but it was like he was really there. Yet in a way he was, it was just in a different way. It was like him communicating to me. Saying listen I apologize; I wasn't the dad that you were looking for or expected. I did the best I could, I only could give what I knew, and that for some reason hit me in a way that I never imagined. Ken: All right we are back with Christopher Salem and we talked about how his journey started and we talked about how meditation and journaling became a big part of his life. Now tell me about your Master Your Inner Critic book and the seven steps to eradicate the root of the problem? Christopher: So, Master Your Inner Critic is a book I wrote about five years ago now. Master Your Inner Critic outlines the process of knowing that our inner critic is that internal voice that speaks to us from limiting beliefs. It can convince us that we're not worthy, or not enough, and that we are everything that our limiting beliefs define us to be. Which is completely in an illusion and false. So, resolving the root cause is like with anything else. If you have cancer, you take out the tumor. You have to make sure you get the tumor at the root. You want to get all of the cells from that tumor that may still be there. Because otherwise the cancer can come back. It is the same thing with limited beliefs, you got to get to the root cause to eradicate it. Then use a process to sustain it, this is where the 8 pillars of wellness come in. They allow us to find that work life harmony some people sometimes call it balance. But when you think about it as balance, is there really such a thing as balance in life? No. It is more of harmony. It is a seesaw, teetering. Ken: What is the best way for folks to connect with you? Christopher: christophersalem.com efamovement.org chris@christophersalem.com Please subscribe to this podcast and leave a rating and review, to help others find this podcast. Also join the Facebook group. Here is the spot to click and set up a time so we can discuss how you can use these tools and others to get your amazing life! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/support

Ken: So to start with, give us a little background of who you are and what you do. Mac: I am a father. I am a husband of 16 years to a wonderful wife and I am a veteran of the United States Army, after about nine and a half years and with two tours under my belt. I am a voiceover actor that helps businesses have a digital voice in this digital world. Ken: What makes your life amazing? Mac: I would definitely say my faith and my family and I have to say my voice too. Because of the fact that without it I couldn't do anything that I'm doing. Ken: What is your accomplishment that you are most proud of? Mac: The accomplishment I'm most proud of right now is still being married to the same woman after 16 years. Still being alive every morning I wake up, and being a father. But also I think the other thing is just being able to know that I've been able to help businesses grow and to narrate stories for various companies around the world. An animated short film that I'm a part of is going to the festival right now, Currently it'll be airing on April 14th at 5 p.m. European Time. I've also been able to be a narrator for a cherry TV series called Planet Wild TV which will be airing hopefully in the spring or summer TBD. Just being able to work with various small companies like The Memory Collective and and the Monumental Moments Videographer in the Indianapolis area. Just helping tell people stories. Ken: What do you think it takes to have an amazing life? Mac: Not worrying what other people think about your life. As long as you do it the way you enjoy it and it's not hurting yourself or anybody else then I say go for it. Not allowing people or even yourself to put in fears or negative thoughts in your mind. Fears and negative thoughts, they can keep you from doing what you want and need to do. I did that for too long and now that I'm doing it I'm happy as can be and no one can take that from me. Ken: If you could only leave three things for this world what three things would you leave? Mac: A wonderful Legacy, a legacy that they and I are proud of. Knowing that I did the best I could with what I had. Then leaving the world a better place. If I can do all three of those things then I'll be happy, I don't need anything materialistic to leave behind, although you know I'd like to have a 1945 pickup truck, but a pickup truck but that's one of those things that you can have in your retirement phase and just enjoy while your here. I think the other three are more important than that. Ken: What are the places to find you? Mac: You can find me on Facebook and you can find me on Twitter. Then on Instagram and LinkedIn. Then my website. Please subscribe to this podcast and leave a rating and review, to help others find this podcast. Also join the Facebook group. Here is the spot to click and set up a time so we can discuss how you can use these tools and others to get your amazing life! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/support

Ken: To begin with Mike I wanted to ask what was going on and what were some of the things that you were struggling when you started the “I Have Value” program? Mike: Pretty darn bad PTSD That I learned to cope with. We attacked it with no chemistry involved, which you know for once something finally worked with it. But I was also having pretty severe marital problems as well. Most of those were because of PTSD, depression, bipolar (type 2), and I am a rapid cycler. Which Ken can attest to he's seen me do it. How did the saying go if you know the “why” you may do for most any “how” and I had learned the “Why” Ken: When we started the program what was it that you were hoping to gain from it? Mike: Serenity, serenity in my marriage, Which was a huge huge undertaking, Denise, rest her soul. We were great together, we thought we were great together. We were going through some really hard times and I figured out what it was. I figured out what the issue was and we could not have solved it then. Ken: How did those feelings of guilt play out in your life? Mike: What's the phrase If You Don't Heal What Hurt You, You'll Bleed On People Who Didn't Cut You - Marcie Lyons probably one of the best answers to that question without going into a huge explanation. Skills are where it starts, realizing when you go through this and come out on the other side, when you go through life's battles Like my cousin Jim says in his book “Touching The Dragon”, you are going to come out with scars. Those scars manifest in the form of emotional intelligence, the ability to step out of ourselves and be empathetic. I know each and everyone of you are going out there and working your butt off. I mean brain jobs are harder than any physical work. Here's another thing it is not if but when the Sedona Method If not now then When? Ken: What would you say to those that are sitting on the fence trying to decide whether or not they are a good fit for this program? Mike: Okay first off, If you sit with Crow on the fence you're going to fall with the crow off the fence. Get off the fence. You know we like the earth, people bear fruit. You are not here by mistake, none of you. If I can come to this conclusion myself then there's not a person around that it is unable. Have a little bit of faith, Definitely have some faith in yourselves I mean you're going to go through it, don't give up. In our next podcast we will be talking about How to Fix ADHD Without Medication. Please subscribe to this podcast and leave a rating and review, to help others find this podcast. Also join the Facebook group. Here is the spot to click and set up a time so we can discuss how you can use these tools and others to get your amazing life! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/support

Katie: Hi I'm Katie I am a grateful recovering addict, I am a grateful sober person, I have been free from cutting for 8 months, I've been staying off of hard drugs for three and a half years and I have been clean off of weed for 8 months. Ken: So what were some of the things that you were hoping to learn when we started talking? Katie: I wanted to learn to love myself, I hated myself before I met you. Ken: How did that come about? How did you start hating yourself? Katie: My parents would shame me for being fat, They would even though my mom was bigger than me; She would tell me that I needed to lose weight. My family would shame me for binge eating, which I did to cover the hurt of them telling me I was fat. Ken: What other things where you up and cover come with me start talking Katie: I was hoping to overcome my cutting addiction. Ken: Give us a little background on your cutting addiction. How did that look? Katie: I started cutting at 10 years old my grandma died when I was seven and that devastated me and I started cutting. Then it started getting really bad when I was 14. That was when my sister who was 9 years old, found me in the bathtub full of orange bath water because I've bled almost out. She woke me up, she bandaged my wounds, dried me off and she put me in bed. She then told my parents that I was okay, but that I was asleep and I didn't want dinner. That's when I started going downhill even more, because two weeks later she started cutting and I blamed myself. Ken: What was it that was causing all the cutting? Katie: I felt like there was no other outlet for my pain, everybody was silencing me. I wasn't able to talk about my feelings. Ken: Where do you think you would be if you hadn't gone through the “you have value” program? Katie: I probably still be cutting myself, not knowing what to do with my life, Actually I'd probably be dead I had a suicide pact with accouple people that I'm not going to name. But we were supposed to kill ourselves before we turned 20. I don't think without your program I'd still be alive to be telling you this story. Ken; I am so glad that you did not keep that pact! Because there was pain right? I get it. There was a lot of pain that happened. I mean we get shamed from maybe parents or others from school. We get those feelings we get those emotions and there's so many of us that struggle in knowing how to deal with those. Ken: Since we can't deal with them we bury those emotions and those emotions that are buried they never go away, they never die. So these emotions they're trying to get out on the surface and these actions that you were using, like drugs and all, were just trying to let out all those buried emotions. Now it is a really amazing thing to work through those, that takes a very strong person not everybody will do it. It is important to look at yourself and that is what this program is all about. Have the changes that we work together to introduce into your life have they continue to work for you? Katie: Yes they have, the tools you gave me to help stop cutting the ice cube, the rubberband, I don't even have to use them anymore and I don't think about cutting. Ken : What is the difference that the “you have value” program had? Katie: It made me realize that I'm more than just my body, I've got Spirit, I've got a heart. I can think for myself instead of letting everybody else think for me. Please subscribe to this podcast and leave a rating and review, to help others find this podcast. Also join the Facebook group. Here is the spot to click and set up a time so we can discuss how you can use these tools and others to get your amazing life! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/support

Listen in to Podcast #79 as Ken talks about what you can do if you - get into a corner too fast or have a false neutral. Listeners can support the podcasts by clicking on the link: goo.gl/ORYax2 Podcast Notes: - Updates from Ken - What can I do if I get in too fast and stay on track? - What can I do if I get in too fast and run off track? - What if I get a false neutral?

Summary: Today’s guest is Ken’s business partner, Bob Strachan. He’s here to fill in for Brad and also to dive into the secrets behind what has made his business relationship so successful. It’s great to get along with a potential business partner, to have similar interests and produce a successful business. But there is so much more to it than having complementary skill sets. Listen in as we break down Bob’s journey from Hong Kong to Nashville, how the accumulation of knowledge and experience outside of Metacake has added to the success of his current business, what it’s really like to work with Ken Ott on a daily basis, and what the process of starting a partnership might look like in the beginning. Ken and Bob talk about how they have grown alongside each other as well as challenged each other over the years, covering everything from dealing with conflict to keeping their relationship strong and healthy.    Top 3  Curtain Pulls in this episode:  “Partnerships work when interests are aligned,” but let’s add: Purpose and Character. When Interests, Purpose, and Character are aligned, there is magic! When you think you’ve found a great business partner, consider wading into the relationship slowly over time. Step into roles for a set period of time and make adjustments along the way. Allowing time to fine-tune the way you communicate will create more trust and an even more solid foundation.  “Don’t let your gifts take you where your character can’t keep you.” In other words, don’t let someone’s talents be the only reason that you choose to work with then. Ensure that there are signs of character alignment as well!    For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes: Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders   About Our Guest: Bob Strachan: Bob is a co-founder of Metacake, working together with Ken to lead their team as well as establish strong business partner relationships and help brands unlock massive revenue online.  Bob on LinkedIn Work with Bob & Metacake   About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [0:39] Bob H introduces Ken’s business partner and today’s guest- Bob Strachan.  [2:55] Bob S talks about how he grew up in Hong Kong, which was a British Colony until 1997, which is why there is a bit of a British tilt to his accent. He grew up in Hong Kong and then went to college at Sheffield University in England.  [5:33] Bob S continues, he got a job back in Hong Kong after graduation and started with a Boston based consulting company called The Monitor Group. He got a dual honors degree in molecular biology and biotechnology, but realized that the next step was a PhD and he really just wanted to get out into the world and create something.  [7:00] Bob S says that he sort of lucked into an industry and a company that did really well and worked for him. He found it fascinating, and there was so much growth so quickly that he learned a lot super fast. At that company, there wasn’t a typical path to consultancy other than being recruited from a US Ivy League school. But they saw potential in him and slowly he was able to get training in the US and expand his knowledge further.  [8:45] Bob S continues, saying that as he learned more and technology shifted so quickly in the late 90’s, he got really passionate about how tech was going to serve business. Growing up as a “third culture” kid, he honed a skill set based on communication skills, reading between the lines, and eventually sitting down with business people and figuring out what they need, what they’re capable of, and helping them bridge that gap. [10:00] Bob H asks if growing up overseas gave him an advantage, seeing the world through a different lens.  [10:24] Bob S says “At its foundation, it gives you a sort of humility and respect… you come in with an open book and know that this is a new situation, I’ve been in these situations many, many, many times before, and I know that I don’t know what’s going on here, so I need to just have wide eyes and pay attention and listen.”  [11:09] Bob S talks about meeting his now wife in Hong Kong, who’s parents started an orphanage in Hong Kong, but they were from Colorado originally. By the early 2000’s they moved to rural western Colorado, and Bob says he loved it!  [13:27] Bob S continues, saying he met an author by chance who eventually hired him full time doing marketing and media for him. Fast forward to 2007, and he and Ken move to Tennessee in the same year, later starting Metacake in 2011.  [14:25] Ken shares that the 9 years of working with Bob have been a great ride and a huge learning experience. He talks about believing that they are here for a higher purpose, being stewards of good inside of the business together and helping businesses they serve to be the best they can be.  In the beginning, they weren’t specialized in Ecommerce- that happened in 2016- but living out that process with a business partner has been very cool. [16:40] Bob H asks Ken and Bob about what the process of starting the business together was- how did they maneuver that dance?  [17:12] Bob S says that at the time he had his own consulting business, but in terms of a team he was just contracting things out to people. He had worked with Ken in the past and had a lot of respect for him, so they slowly began to do more projects together. As time passed, there were conversations around how they would bring the businesses together. Bob was on board pretty quickly, and it didn’t take him long to make the decision, but Ken said “What if we wade into this together?”  [18:45] Ken says that slowly wading into a business partnership together is smart, because it’s a decision that you can’t undo very easily. There’s blending that has to happen, and undoing that would likely burn some bridges.  [19:39] Bob S says that pulling partnerships apart is a huge relational burden as well.  [20:15] Ken “What we did, and what we’ve done with other businesses… we started by acting like business partners and set a period of time in place to try it.” Figuring out how to manage projects, how splits of work will go, etc, with the intention being that if it works out, you can bring the two sides together.  [21:48] Bob S shares that the biggest thing he had to wrestle with was that he was bringing more clients, money to the table. “So I had to go through the process of, do I think by partnering with Ken and sharing this, that there’s more?”  [22:47] Bob H says that he sees a dynamic and balance of risk seeking versus risk averse- having a balance of both works well.  [23:15] Bob S says that those roles can flip flop as well, Bob S can be more impulsive and Ken catches him to slow him down, and Ken can be a visionary that wants to go all-in on one thing down the line, and Bob steps in to course correct.  [23:50] Ken brings the convo to personality profiles and knowing your strengths and weaknesses. [26:45] Ken talks about how a lot of different business ventures and partnerships  allowed him to learn in a stable environment.  The idea of wading in comes from a slow and steady learning of the relationships.  [28:15] Bob S says it is really important to know what it is that you’re testing as you’re in the process of wading in, knowing what it is that you may run into and measuring your success over 6 months based on how well things are going.  [28:36] Bob H asks Bob S for advice for anyone who’s looking for a partner or just interested in going into business.  [29:03] Bob S says that he hears often that the partnership and he and Ken have is rare- and he appreciates it more and more as time goes on. “Often we get into partnerships because we respect the talents of a person… but I think what happens in partnerships that succeed is it becomes more of a respect for that person.”  [30:55] Bob S continues that ultimately if you’re going into a lifelong business proposition with someone, it has to be someone you can do life with, so thinking of it as a marriage of sorts isn’t too far off.  [31:15] Bob S “I think asking that question, is this person someone that I can do life with… is this someone that I can see being in business with over the long term beyond maybe just their capabilities and skills and what they bring to the table.”  [31:29] Bob H reflects on the fact that when you’re married for a long time and you hold it together for the long-haul, it doesn’t have anything to do with how they look or what they can bring to the table, but their soul.  Partner with someone who’s really good at LIFE and not just sales, or their business.  [33:00] Bob S says that if those things are important to you, if you want to be able to do life with someone and get along with someone for a long time as well as build this business relationship and get things done, the process of wading in is even more important and valuable.  [33:31] Bob S shares a great quote, “Don’t let your gifts take you where your character can’t keep you.” Life can have us wind up in a lot of places based on our gifts, but if our character can’t keep us there then you’re bound to have a fall. This applies to choosing a business partner as well.  [33:57] Bob H shares a quote as well- “How you do anything is how you do everything.”  [35:05] Bob S: “Partnerships work when interests are aligned,” which is true and can sustain relationships for a period of time. But Bob has 2 additional pieces that are important.  Having an awareness that sometimes you will have to put the other person's interests above your own. This has to be healthy! Having a deeper philosophical alignment is also super important.  [36:55] Ken agrees, “I think 3 things have to be aligned, interest, purpose, and character.” If those things are aligned, you’ve got the potential for a great partnership.  [37:35] Ken adds that it’s also not great if you’re the same person- really your interests need to be varied, and ultimately complementary.  [39:08] Bob H asks Bob and Ken about conflict and being willing to have healthy conflict. “What does it look like when you disagree?” [39:57] Ken says that he grew up in a place where conflict is more common, so he is a little more comfortable with conflict.  [41:15] Bob S shares that he is an Enneagream 9, always a peacemaker and looking for a peaceful way of resolving conflict. “Stability and Harmony are what gives me energy, so conflict is challenging.”  [41:48] Ken tells a story about how Bob came into work once and was super upset and down because he’d had a fight with his mom. Ken says that he argues with his mom regularly, it’s part of the way that they communicate, so that situation just exemplifies the different ways that they deal with conflict.  [42:15] Bob S says more often than not, there is a pretty quick alignment but on occasion there is real disagreement that will slowly burn over a few days, but those situations are rare.  [42:50] Ken agrees, and says that maturity has shrunk his ego over time and has allowed him to be able to handle conflict in a more peaceful way. “In general I care more about what the end result is than how it’s done or who does it.” So that keeps his tendency towards conflict in check as well.  [44:13] Ken shares that he and Bob both have separate mentors in their lives and coaches as well. They don’t have a “board” but have talked about it, and about how it will give objectivity to decisions as the business scales and grows.  [45:00] Ken talks about not allowing outside voices to get in between of you and your business partner- you need to own the relationship.  [46:30] Bob H asks what Bob is most grateful for within their company- what thing can he say is most beneficial about it?  [47:21] Bob S shares that he’s most grateful for the partnership, because it’s allowed him to get better about expressing his thoughts, desires, needs, ideas ahead of time. He’s gotten so much better with communication, and being honest about what he will fight for versus let go.  [48:42] Bob continues, saying that there will be days when things go wrong. One of the biggest benefits of a partner is to have someone that’s rooting for you during a hard day or hard life season. He also says that the admiration has turned into being challenged to be the best he can be. The relationship has made him a much better person because he’s had a safe place to learn and grow and become new versions of himself.  [52:25] Ken mentions having Bob on again to dive deeper into how his life experience has created a lot of skills that fit his role at Metacake well. Traditionally he would be called a salesman but in reality it’s a much more subtle definition- “What you do is really just helping people add value with every conversation and help them make a decision.” 

Summary: We all want new streams of new business, and today’s guest shares how they were able to build a healthy business serving other agencies. We’ve talked about the value of partnerships and collaboration with other agencies as a source of new business before and Oyova is a prime example of that. We also discuss the pros and cons of having business partners. And we get another look at how an agency is dealing with the effects of COVID-19. Tune in as Jon shares his experiences (good and bad) with business partners, talks about the impact that technology has had on his career journey, how Oyova has held up during the last 6 months of extreme disruption, and what he expects of the remainder of 2020.    Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode:  Consider other agencies as potential partners rather than competition. If the character is high, then risks are low. When determining whether someone is a good business partner for you, ask yourself if you’d mind getting a call from that person on a Saturday morning. If you don’t LIKE your partner in life, a business relationship is sure to fail.  Maintaining steady business growth through any disruption means applying Positive, Persistent Pressure in sales scenarios. Speak to the heart of your client’s business, and remind them of the services you offer and how it would benefit them.    For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes: Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders   About our Guest:  Jon Tsourakis: President and co-owner of Oyova, a Florida-based, full-service technology and marketing agency. He is the leader of a Mastermind for Digital Agencies and host of “The Climb”, a podcast where agency owners and marketing leaders tune in to get growth tips and strategies for growing their businesses.  Learn more about Oyova Join the Mastermind: DigitalMastermind.com Check out The Climb on Apple Podcasts!   About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [1:08] Ken introduces our guest, Jon Tsourakis. President and co-owner of Oyova, a technology and marketing agency. John is in charge of sales and marketing while his partner handles the production and operation of the business. They’re based in St. Petersburg, FL. John also leads a digital mastermind group for agencies.  [2:52] Bob asks John to tell us about his agency.  [3:01] John responds: There are about 30 people on their team between two offices. They focus predominantly (60%) of their business on development. They also do marketing services for companies that are over $2 million, all shapes and sizes above that. In addition they work with a lot of agencies and help with their overflow work. [3:38] Bob: “Is it full service? Do you specialize in anything specifically?”[3:46] John responds that they are full service, although that pains him because there are so many great arguments for specialization.  Biggest strengths are understanding the mechanics of technology and  marketing.  On the marketing side, “we can create some really impressive lead growth through  third engine optimization.” [4:20] Ken: “It sounds to me like you are specialized, it’s just not industry specialization… one of your specialties seems to be this relationship with agencies. [4:50] Brad asks if the work they do for other agencies is mostly dev work.  [4:58] John responds that 90% of what they do is dev work. “A lot of agencies will have one or two developers on their staff… but that’s just not in their wheelhouse, so we come in a fill that gap.”[5:25] Brad asks what John thinks the percentage is of agencies out there that don’t have deep dev in-house. [6:05] John: “I would say it’s probably 85% of agencies that don’t have a super deep tech bench. They’re very focused and specialized and they have a developer that can wear some other hats…” but ultimately most of them don’t have the experience in development that his agency can add.  [6:28] Bob: “I’m curious to know of the agencies that you work with- are they typically traditional older agencies? Are they digital agencies that don’t have the depth? Are they hybrids? What does your client makeup look like?” [6:47] John: “Some of them have just moved away from paper in the last few years and have embraced what the internet is… other are very advanced platinum HubSpot partners that just run into situations that are outside of what they’re great at… there are others that are amazing design agencies that have really good front end developers who run into overflow that they will send to us because they know we can take care of it.”  Other than that, many want to take on an ERP (Enterprise Resource Management) based project because they can see the revenue in that and they can bring Oyova on at the partner level. [7:45] Ken talks about recent episodes about cost and pricing. Oyova serves agencies, and one of the things they have to accommodate for is cost. Agencies are selling at a certain price that you have no control over, so cost has to be below that. “How do you make that model work?” [8:07] Jon responds- cost is definitely a factor. They sell everything in blocks of hours, so the more hours you purchase then the lower your cost will be. Some agencies buy a LOT of hours, just to have access to their team.  “Others will just do it on a project basis… when agencies are white labeling someone else, the really smart ones get sick of that because they realize the inefficiency in it.”  [9:26] Brad asks about billing- do they bill the client directly, or do you bill through the parent agency you’re working with?” Jon responds that it depends on the agency that they’re working with, they try to be respectful of how they want the relationship managed. [9:55] Bob asks if they have built this model intentionally and whether they aim primarily for agencies or individual clients.  [10:09] Jon gives a brief history of how he and his business partner met. It was an accidental discovery at first, they were a marketing agency with two developers, they’d get overflow from other agencies and then after 8 years realized it was a great business model.  [11:57] Ken asks Jon for a deeper history of his business relationship with his partner and the pros and cons of that relationship. He also asks about what Jon expects for the next few months within his company. First, Jon’s story. [12:28] Jon: His father was a master carpenter and builder, so he was part of the family business. He met a guy at school that had a marketing company that worked in the healthcare space. He worked with this guy for a while, and in 2009 he decided to start his own agency.  Around 2013, 2014 he realized that partnership wasn’t working and they had a disastrous breakup, Jon was left high and dry.  He decided to work with his current partner and over the years they developed a great working relationship.  Jon says the best part of that relationship is that they can fill in the gaps in each other's strengths and weaknesses. Where Jon sees shiny things, his partner sees dull things and can bring him back to earth when excitement takes over.  [15:16] Jon continues: “For years, we’ve just been fighting the good fight, trying to be an agency in a world of sameness, create differentiation… a merger sounded like a really good idea based on the technology depth and the strategic advantage of being a strong partner.” [16:13] The guys ask for details about that bad partner relationship.  Jon responds that he was a brilliant developer but just not on the same page about a lot of communication things, there were some psychological differences in the way they thought about professionalism. The client called and strongly advised that unless that partner went away, there would be serious problems for their company.  There was a huge vulnerable, humble moment that allowed him to realize that the relationship was destructive. [17:22] Bob asks for some advice based on those learning experiences.  [17:37] Jon: “The direct and gentle communication… he just couldn’t deal with people.” Do business with someone who you wouldn’t mind getting a phone call from on a Saturday morning. You have to LIKE the person you’re working with.  [18:12] Ken confirms that concept of direct and gentle communication- even in the face of disrespect in return, you always have to respond in a direct and gentle manner. It’s really about basic respect.  [18:40] Brad asks for advice for how to approach things in a direct and gentle way while things are heated or when there is stress in the company. What does that mindset shift look like? [19:20] Jon: It’s about setting a foundation, and asking if you’re being logical and not emotional. It’s great to have those conversations with partners and asking yourself constantly what the logical next steps are. Be aware of your own tendencies and allow for those weaknesses in logic that you may have.  [20:13] Brad asks how they manage clients who are very reliant on them, who are more attached than an agency would be.    Jon: “We have an agreement that’s evergreen with our client, so they’re continually getting a percentage for essentially not doing anything just based on the engagement that they helped us create.”    [22:25] Bob asks about the longest contract they have that an agency brought to them.    Jon responds that it’s 8 years- that’s a great contract!   [23:06] Brad talks about how the more you’re in bed with technology that drives revenue for your client… “there’s always a fear that you’re going to get canned… because you become a commodity.”  [24:32] Brad asks “What kind of stuff do you do in the development world?”[24:50] Jon responds: Mostly websites, some entire technological infrastructure for some companies where it’s essentially their ERP. “Ranges from little website integrations, all the way to the entire technological skeleton of the company.” [28:00] Ken asks how the last few months have been managed for Jon. What was it like in the beginning of quarantine, what was it like through that process, and how has business gone since then, and if any of these things have changed how they run overall. [29:10] Jon: The theme of 2020 was going to be The Climb, and it turned out to be more true than they thought. They came up with a plan over Zoom, and decided to stay focused on clients, closing business as much as possible. They realized very quickly that their team could definitely perform and provide results from home, and have surprised themselves with their productivity.  [31:52] Brad affirms that it’s been hard- and congratulates Jon on their success through Covid.  [32:40] Ken: “What area of your business grew? Was it new business or existing business? Is there a difference there?”  [34:14] Jon talks about how they were able to extend or increase their marketing packages, they really talked up this being “the time” to invest in online business. If you come to the table with logical, competent people and a plan, you’re set up for the highest chance of success!  [36:12] Jon talks about what the next 6 months might look like. “The path forward and the recession is going to be different for everyone. There’s going to be pocket recessions based on specific industries. And some aren’t going to feel it at all.”  [37:00] Ken asks how this may change going forward, and what sort of opportunities he might see. [37:12] Jon talks about how the challenge of Covid is actually exciting for him, although he feels guilty about that at times. Business owners have been really lucky over the last 10 years, so now you really get to see what you’re made of.  There will likely be a lot of acquisition happening, but ultimately he feels positioned for the best chance of success. [38:30] Ken asks “How can you package up what you actually are selling in different ways?” This is something that Metacake has done well through the quarantine.  [39:42] Brad asks if there are any new products or service offerings that have come up during Covid for Jon’s company.  Other than rapid messaging via popup websites or email blasts.  [40:20] Brad asks what sort of packages of services other than development Oyova offers.  [40:39] Jon:  Other than the mastermind group, one event per year that is a collective knowledge base. “I think creating that space for all these agencies to come together and just be open and share and be transparent is important.”  Oyova spends a lot of time helping agencies scope out projects, helping them win those projects and making it an enjoyable experience to work with them.  [50:44] Ken: “You’ve built really high quality relationship with agencies that you get a sustainable business model through… how do you do that?” [51:28] JOn: “If you connect with somebody and build relationships that are genuine, you can go a long way.”  [52:31] Brad asks about generating new business, and their business development process.  [52:38] Jon talks about the three P’s: Positive, Persistent Pressure. If you have the right message and continually follow up with the people on that list, you’ll find them.”  [53:27] Brad asks what Jon has done to become a thought leader in his space. “What kinds of things do you do to promote yourself to new clients?

Summary:  In today’s episode we break down how increased self-awareness has had a positive impact on the way we do business. But what does self-awareness really mean? With a plethora of personality tests available these days, there is little excuse for having low self-awareness. When you know your personality type, your strengths and weaknesses, you have a more accurate picture of how you can improve and grow. Today's episode discusses the pros and cons of self-awareness, how better understanding yourself leads to greater understanding of others, and how self-awareness can lead to greater, more lasting success in business and creating companies that have a positive impact on the world.    Resources Mentioned:  DISC Personality assessment: https://www.tonyrobbins.com/disc/ Riso-Hudson Enneagram Type Indicator Test: https://tests.enneagraminstitute.com/   Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: Having self-awareness is KEY to knowing your true strengths and weaknesses as well as what gives you energy versus what drains your energy. Being aware of your personality type’s strengths and weaknesses allows you to be a better leader, a better parent, a better human! This makes you more effective and have more enjoyment. You have more empathy for others and it changes the reason that you do the things that you do, and gives you insight to the same for others in your life. The more self-awareness you can have, the better and more impactful your company can be. “If this company became great when you’re unhealthy, imagine how great it could be when you are healthy!”    About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [2:06] Ken reflects on last week’s episode with Hannah Paramore Breen, and speaks on how it ties into this week’s episode: “She even talked about the topic for today, her personality type and how personality types play into what you do and knowing how you’re made up helps you navigate business a little bit better.” [2:27] Bob asks: “When you guys were starting out, do you all feel like you had a strong sense of self-awareness going in? How much did that play into your business?” [2:41] Brad: “I think I had zero self-awareness, it felt like that anyways. I had awareness in my talent, but not who I was outside of my talent. That’s been the biggest struggle, and is something I think we all deal with… Every day I learn more and more about how I deal with people, and how I deal with stress, and things that I’m learning about myself. It’s hard to sometimes see things that are kind fo ugly about yourself… that’s the beauty, that you can make a change and work on things about yourself that are not positive to other people or your business or yourself.” [3:44] Ken: “I would say when I was growing up I had no self-awareness or very little. God, the way he’s led my life... there were so many cliffs that I could have gone off… and if I didn’t it wasn’t because of me because I wasn’t self-aware… I did have personality traits that were advantageous for doing business…  …”But as I’ve become more self-aware it’s like reverse-engineering what’s good and also what’s bad and keeping that in place.” Attending events and gaining more tools have allowed him to be more proactive in adjusting course and making decisions based on growth and self-improvement, but it all starts with self-awareness. [5:35] Bob: “We need to define self awareness… the ability to look at why you do the things you do, why you see the world in the way that you do, without any attachment to it being right or wrong… it just IS… and then move forward in the best lane with that awareness?” [7:17] Brad: “Sometimes I look at the things that I’m not and think… I don’t have that in me, that’s not how I’m built. And I spend a lot of time shaming myself with it, instead of trying to align myself with people who ARE that…” [8:23] Ken speaks on how a lack of self awareness can make it seem like things are never working out in your favor, when really you’re walking into a wall over and over again, waiting for a different result that could come from some self-reflection and self-awareness. [8:42] Bob: “The biggest problem [with a lack of self-awareness] is that you don’t understand why you see the world the way that you do, and so you think everyone sees the world the way you do.” [9:18] Brad: “I always struggle because I find myself hitting walls a lot, and I wonder if I need to do hard things and get through it or am I just not the right person to be doing that? It’s just not in me, sometimes I feel like I can just overpower it, but I definitely get hit by that self-doubt a lot.” Brad asks: “Do you guys feel like when you do that too many times, it's time to take a different road? It’s time to get away from that wall?” [10:42] Bob and Brad ask Ken if this experience feels any differently with a business partner. In their businesses they wear many hats and have to do things they’re not good at naturally because it’s the only option. Does throwing an additional “boss” into the mix change that dynamic? [13:05] Ken: “Bob Strachan is my business partner… and for us it works well. And I’ve looked at why because there’s always a downside, and an upside. There’s never a perfect scenario, right? We’re actually complete opposites… we’re literally the opposite on every personality test and I think that’s actually why it works- also I think it takes respect and humility. I think ego is a lot of times what gets in the way of most business partnerships. Everyone wants to be ‘The Guy’ for the reason of ego rather than what’s the best thing. “It’s taken a while to get here for us, but we realized our giftings and sort of stay inside of those and so Bob is extremely personal...he gets energy out of being around people and caring, all to the nth degree… those are things I can do but they don’t give me energy… My personality is more geared towards visioning and growth and I have a passion that I can see and I can bring energy to the team by doing that. And it works, because it would wear me down to be doing everything, for sure.” [15:17] Bob: “You hit on one thing that I ''ve been trying to keep in front of mind. What gives you energy versus what drains you or exhausts you? And I think we would be remiss if we were to say, ‘Don’t ever do things that drain you’ because in business, especially as agency owners, you’ve got to do the hard stuff. You’ve got to do the spreadsheets and the balance sheets and the things that I hate.” [15:48] Brad: “I like those things.” [15:49] Bob: “I know you do! But it drains me. However the point is that you should gravitate toward those things and be self-aware enough to say, ‘I don’t feel tired when I do this, in fact I get energized when I do it. It gives me creativity and motivates… be self-aware enough to note that and say ‘What is it about this? I need to be devoting my time and my energy to this. And the things that drain me, I need to surround myself with people that it does give them energy to do this.’ “ [18:34] Brad speaks on his own introversion and how sometimes he feels out of his own skin because of the social anxiety that impacts his business decisions.  “I think it makes you very prepared. Because it drains you, and it’s exhausting. And you have that anxiety. It’s like you work harder to show up.” [19:35] Ken: “Personality is really more about what gives you energy than what you’re good at. Because you could be good at something that drains you. But that personality is more about positive and negative energy. I feel like there’s two categories of things- you have your strengths- the things that give you energy would be smart, would be strategically smart to align yourself with those things. And then there are OTHER things that are universally draining… that 1% of things that everyone hates, everyone hates to get up at 5am, so if you’re the guy that gets up at 5am you’ve got an advantage. You do those and you can do those with consistency and repetition. And all of a sudden the hard things become just how you operate and that’s how you operate at a high level.  [21:01] Brad: “So one thing which has been really helpful for me is I know that my energy level is great from like 8am till about noon, and I can run hard and do all the things that I’m not built to do but do them anyways. But after lunch if I’ve had to talk to a lot of people or really had to interact with people, I lose a lot of my energy because I’m drained… mentally I’m just spent.” “And so what I do is I actually divide up my work and I do certain types of work… in the afternoons that actually fill me back up, not drain me more. That way, when I get home Im not so exhausted that I can’t even function and spend time with my family because I don’t want my family to get leftover Brad, right? Understanding yourself and actually putting boundaries, you can still do the things that drain you, but only during certain times of day.”  [23:01] Ken adds: “If there is one action item from this podcast it would be- be intentional about your schedule based on when you’re at your best.”  [24:15] Brad speaks about the Enneagram: “I’m an enneagram five, which is considered to be the investigator right, so I get completely in my head...there’s certain things that exhaust me and if I overthink and I think too much on something I can also get burnout where my brain just won’t shut off.”  In this way, it is even more important to recognize your limitations and strengths/weaknesses within your personality type, and use those things to your advantage.  [25:38] Ken asks: “Given a person of that type… is that something you have to be more aware of defending against? Overanalysis like that?” [25:53] Brad: “Yes, overthinking. And once you’re aware of it, it’s… my silver bullet, but it can also be my kryptonite.” Brad goes on to point out that this often gets in the way of being present in the moment and having good, soul-filling conversations. So blocking out periods of time to give him an extra cushion so he doesn’t have to feel so rushed would be very beneficial.  [27:32] Brad speaks on the power and importance of exercise with his personality type: “The thing about exercise is that it’s not just for my body, it’s for my head. It’s so that I’m thinking more about my body and not about things in my head.” [27:54] Bob gives a quick synopsis of the Enneagram Personality test and how it differs from others.  Personality identification based on 9 personality types. It includes areas of growth for each personality type, and how they show up in the world based on stress and growth.  “It helps ME to know what your personality type is (as a co-worker, peer, boss, etc) so that I can not only engage with you but also know how to bring the best out of you and the best out of me.” [28:40] Brad: “As an enneagram five, you know every type has their kryptonite, and mine is avarice. And I had to look it up, what the heck does avarice mean? And it means that I feel like I won’t have enough of something, typically its time or money… I realized everything I do all day is trying to maximize time so I can get everything done.” Brad gives an example of how he plans things that he’s done before to be as efficient as possible. And while in some situations that’s a good thing, he’s also realized that it is a manifestation of anxiety.  [30:50] Brad continues: “That’s avarice… now that I have awareness of that I can be proactive and when I notice it, I think ‘What can I do differently’ and sometimes that’s just putting myself in the position that I don’t know what’s going to happen next, and that’s okay. And just allow things to happen as they do, and love that, and enjoy just being in the present, without having to care about what will happen tomorrow. Today has enough challenges of its own, why are we caring about the challenges of tomorrow, or the next day? It’s a constant anxiety that I’ve lived with my whole life and I’ve just never dealt with it. But now that I am, it’s hard. It’s hard work. But worth it.” [31:55] Bob asks: “What about you Ken? What is your kryptonite?” [31:57] Ken: “I’ve taken a lot of personality tests, and they all seem to align. On the enneagram I’m an 8 with a 9 wing. And 8 is ‘The Challenger’. And on the DISC test I’m a D-I, D-C, something like that… Enneagram 9 is the Peacemaker… The challenger is typically someone who is pushing forward and challenging things… there can be a dark side of that that...” The dark side meaning getting into arguments with people for no reason, badgering someone as a test. Someone who enjoys a good argument and doesn’t run from it.  [34:00] Ken continues: “The benefit for me is that I get energy out of running after something, I enjoy figuring something out, I have this basic premise in my life that nothing is impossible. I don’t necessarily believe that I can do everything… but with the right resources you can… I really think that for a challenger, that dark side really depends on whether your intention is in the right place… Generally I’m pushing forward for what I believe is better for everybody. When I’m leading a team or my family… it’s not out of my ego. In the past it has been, when I was more immature.” [35:31] Bob interjects: “Another quality of an 8 is that they root for the underdog, do you find that to be true for you?” [35:36] Ken: “Yeah, I would say that that’s accurate for me. I’m also a 3, 1 point off, which is I like performing. Which is another part of my personality.” [35:40] Brad: “My brother is an 8 and one thing about him is that he always wants to take care of everyone. And that’s kind of their main motivation, they really do care about everyone. Sometimes it’s a ‘my way or the highway’ kinda thing, but they do it because they want to protect their clan. And that’s an honorable thing- that’s a lot of responsibility.” [36:15] Ken: “I tell my wife all the time, it doesn't always come across the same way, but I feel like I’m made to provide and protect… Those two words resonate with me and I’m not saying I’m best at them, but I’m driven by leading a charge for justice, for a better way, especially when there’s people that I care about inside of that. That leads me to do business, to be the best I can be in health. There are positive sides.” Negative sides are frustration with lack of progress, which may not be obvious or measurable. That is his downside, that he gets frustrated with people’s lack of progress. But he holds himself to a high standard, and commits to his word. A 21-day fast earlier this year was bolstered by telling others what he was doing, and holding himself accountable in that way.  [39:10] Bob: “I’m an enneagram 7… the Optimist, the Visionary. It’s somebody who alwasy sees the glass half-full. Experiences are everything, as a visionary and a builder with an 8 wing, entrepreneurial spirit. Relationships and people skills are strong. I get energy from rooms full of people, and I don’t mind speaking in front of people.” The dark side of that is that because the glass is half full, 7’s can run on that optimism without actually having gas in the tank. The kryptonite is not dealing with things as they happen.  “Part of self-awareness for me over the years has been to have awareness when something is bad, and just letting it be without having to spin it into something good. That can be destructive in business, not acknowledging that there’s something going on.” “The enneagram tells you who you are when you’re healthy and who you are when you’re really stressed out, and to be able to recognize those things is valuable.” [41:14] Bob continues: “In stress, the 7 goes to a 1, which is the perfectionist… so I know when I start getting frustrated with people… for not doing things right, I know I’m not in the right headspace.” “In the direction of health, I go to a 5. When I’m healthy, i can be calm, I can sit and contemplate things. I can think through things rather than always running ahead for the next experience.” [42:00] Ken asks: “What was it like for you guys before you were aware of these things, and after, in the context of being a leader? Because over the years, I get to interact with lots of leaders of big businesses, and things that are just viral. The ones that are aware of this stuff are able to lead a team that actually makes a positive impact on the world. The ones that are not aware often are the boss, not the leader, the guy that hurts people and doesn’t lead through example. Doesn’t know it, but they’re not full or healthy, and are actually doing a disservice to people. There is such a difference between a leader and a boss.” [43:57] Bob: “The value of self-awareness isn’t just for yourself… because then you begin to see other people in the same light.” There is power in being aware of the way that others are processing the world and their work, it allows you to slow yourself down if necessary, it allows you to show grace and mercy for others as well as yourself. “With team members, with clients, I can stop expecting things from them that they shouldn’t be giving me, or they don’t have the capability to give… or at least I know their WHY.” [45:30] Brad speaks on human complexity: “We’re all one number, but we’re all so different within that… I spent so much of my career thinking everyone should be every number, or thinking that we should all have all types of personalities… it’s putting too much on one human to do… I want to work with superhumans because for some reason I think I’m a superhuman… but the reality is… you think everyone’s an idiot but they’re just gifted in certain areas…”  [46:40] Ken speaks on the importance of understanding that a team is made of people with different strengths- that’s the beauty of it. Being aware of those and working together in those strengths (and weaknesses) is what makes being a part of a Team so great. [47:11] Brad: Sometimes you find those gifts… later on. They start taking on other responsibilities and you realize their strengths lay somewhere else.... You have to be patient, #1, you have to SEE  the value in it, #2, and then you have to #3, pour into that and grow it and encourage it in them” It takes a certain kind of person with a keen eye to see that and say “How do we craft an environment and a team where everyone is using their gifts the best.” “I want to make sure everyone in my organization FEELS at their best, that’s important to me. And it’s hard.” [49:00] Ken: “Just being aware and valuing that is so much further down the road than others… it creates so much more success even if you think you’re not good at it. Just be AWARE of that.” Everyone at Metacake takes the DISC test, standing for Decisive, Influential, Stable, and Cautious. “So now we all have tools to better understand one another.” Even those who interview take the test, just so that they can get a snapshot of how they will integrate into the organization. Learning how clients fall on this scale is also helpful. [51:40] Bob: “Interpersonal relationships and conflicts, and getting the most out of employees… as well as asking how to engage with certain clients…” allows you to speak with clients in a better way. There is potential to eliminate a lot of stress and issues by attempting to identify their personality type. [52:38] Brad: Speaks on having a client that asked a lot of questions and it appeared that he was attempting to find fault within the organization, but he was strong-willed and curious and an Enneagram 8. “And now that we’ve earned his trust, we are part of his clan. And he protects and defends us as a client.” [53:37] Ken can relate: “Are you here to help or hurt me? That question has to be answered, but how you go about answering can be really different from person to person.” [54:37] Brad: “Some people who are the toughest upfront end up being the people that care the most for you… they’re just trying to vet you and make sure you’re the real deal.” [55:00] Bob speaks on the difference between Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. “From what we understand of his biography, really for most of his career Steve Jobs lacked a lot of self-awareness. He drove a lot of people away but made a great product.”  Compare that to Bill Gates, who is steady and consistent, he has made billions to give it away and make lasting changes for humanity. He has truly left the world a better place.  [56:50] Brad: “You can be in something and not be the best version of yourself and still grow a successful company.”[57:19] Ken: “I would argue that the more you are aware and the better that you can be, how much better could that thing be? If this company became great when you’re unhealthy, imagine how great it could be when you are healthy and what it could do.”

Garth Stevenson - "The Southern Sea" - Flying Jared Leto - "Did I fall asleep? Sometimes I don't sleep" - Mr. Nobody Garth Stevenson - "The Southern Sea" - Flying Mirah - "We don't have that sticker in this book" Meg Ryan - "It's off in the distance, it came into the room, it's here in the circle" - In the Cut Cliff Martinez - "Death Shall Have No Dominion" - Solaris Ken - "It's all so fleeting" In the Cut - "Street sounds" - In the Cut In the Cut - "Street sounds, footsteps" - In the Cut Ken - "We can't just create everything. We can leave a wake. (I hadn't told you lately.)" Mirah - "I don't want to get my hands dirty (I didn't want to get my mouth dirty)" Meg Ryan - "Midway along the journey of our life I woke to find myself in a dark wood, for I had wandered off from the straight path" - In the Cut Jared Leto - "I think about how it was. It's all I have left. What do you see when you look at me? A grumpy old man who never answers questions? Who mixes everything up? Who's kept busy by getting his meals?" - Mr. Nobody [That's not me] Alan Watts - "You can slip into this state of consciousness. We're all masters. How do you grow each hair without thinking about it?" - The Nature of Consciousness [You are omnipotent.] Boards of Canada - "Collapse" - Tomorrow's Harvest Alan Watts - "Excerpt" - Out of Your Mind Jonathan Glazer - "What would be on the radio? It's not a choice. In fact, turn the radio on now and find out what's on the radio. Because that is what's on the radio." - Under the Skin interview Jared Leto - "Did I fall asleep?" - Mr. Nobody Patrick McGoohan - "One day you'll go too far, and I'll die and beat you all. I'm a prisoner, too." - The Prisoner, episode 9: Checkmate Bill Ehrhart - "Found ways of keeping your thoughts well within the environment you were in" Meg Ryan - "The stillwaters of your mouth under a frond of stars, under a thicket of kisses" - In the Cut Jared Leto - "Sometimes I don't sleep" - Mr. Nobody Boards of Canada - "Collapse" - Tomorrow's Harvest Olafur Arnalds - "30:55" - Eulogy for Evolution Vietnam interviews - "We were brought never to question authority. The gov't was right, policeman, mom and dad, anyone in authority knew what was best. Shouldn't I let my gov't know I think they're crazy?" Meg Ryan - "Thinking back over the course of my passion. Unafraid of the dark" - In the Cut Meg Ryan, sounds - "Street, siren, school bell" - In the Cut Vietnam interviews - "It's so obvious that the war is fixed around the dollar. Somebody's making money. That's why this war has been prolonged" Edd Kalehoff - "The Price is Right theme" - The Price is Right Jonathan Glazer - "Turn the radio on now, that's what should be on the radio. In fact, that sort of is what's on the radio" The Professor (Michael Pool) - "Tech support. No idea what a paperclip is" - The Audio Kitchen 8/20/2003 [RIP] Thatcher Keats - Rancho Thatchmo with Thatcher Keats 2/20/19 Boards of Canada - "?" - Tomorrow's Harvest 3-2-1 Contact - "I hate noise. I'm out here measuring some of the sounds we live with, and I'm telling you, they're pretty awful" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet Meg Ryan - "Alone, the sedge has withered" - In the Cut Firefall - "Always" Jared Leto - "Sometimes I don't sleep" - Mr. Nobody 3-2-1 Contact - "This music's really beautiful, isn't it? Yeah" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet 3-2-1 Contact - "We hear so many different sounds" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet 3-2-1 Contact - "Being a rock musician caused the hearing loss (122 decibels)" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet Thatcher Keats - "Baby's got it going on" - Rancho Thatchmo with Thatcher Keats 2/20/19 Louis Armstrong - "We Have All the Time in the World" [Loops] The Generational Divide - "Teachers, schools, slow using computers. It takes hours. Technology is uncomfortable instead of seamless and nice" Patrick McGoohan, George Coulouris - "Why do both sides look alike? Judge by attitudes." - The Prisoner, episode 9: Checkmate Jared Leto - "It's all I have left" In the Cut - "Train sounds, music" - In the Cut Girl Talk - "Broken Ankles Intro" In the Cut - "Street, car" - In the Cut 3-2-1 Contact - "Dangerous tool: I don't think it's such a great idea to overhear things. There are so many wonderful things to listen to in the world" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet [What would it be like to live in a silent world?] 3-2-1 Contact - "Hearing test: He's beginning to lose his hearing, from being a rock musician" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet Louis Armstrong - "We Have All the Time in the World" [More loops] Ken - "We're almost over (competing to be doing not quite as well). Everything's going great" [Misunderstandings. Birth. Cancer. Sea of miscommunication. Mold at the bottom of the basket. The snow is beautiful.] Ken - "Identification (being recorded 4 different ways)" Gary Sullivan - "Kenzo will be turning 25 in 2 weeks. It's going to be a festive time" - Bodega Pop Live a few weeks ago Christian Vasseur - "un amour infini" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 3-2-1 Contact - "This music's really beautiful, isn't it? Yeah" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet Albert Brooks, Debbie Reynolds - "Organic peanut butter" - Mother The Generational Divide - "Messaging, emailing each other, these little fun things...that makes sense" 3-2-1 Contact - "We're testing the right side now" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet Albert Brooks, Debbie Reynolds - "Honey, there's no difference, it all comes from the same place. Yeah, but, I like the organic" - Mother Girl Talk - "Broken Ankles Intro" - Broken Ankles The Professor (Michael Pool) - "People trade MP3's, and other things on these networks" - The Audio Kitchen 8/20/2003 Moby - "Everloving" - Play Gma - "96 years old" - Last month, last recording Gma - "I don't like darkness (I hope you have a wonderful time tomorrow)" - Other recordings [Put the lamp on. It makes the room look nice. (with Garth Stevenson)] Gma - "Short" Gma twin - "This went on and on and on and on. I was so upset, you have no idea." [Did you put it in the refrigerator? That would be feasible.] Boards of Canada - "Collapse" Gma + twin - "Sharing clothing. I remember a gown I had, and I turned it into dresses for us. I didn't have a sewing machine." [What was the outfit we wore on the first day of junior high?] Christian Vasseur - "sinfonia" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 Gma + twin - "We had to get the same clothes" The Generational Divide - "The structure of school is going to have to change" Ben Stiller, Noah Baumbach - "When I was younger, I was so invested in his grievances, his anger with the world" - The Meyerowitz Stories Christian Vasseur - "tous sur le pont" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 Christian Vasseur - "Food Cook Mood" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay Roger Dawson - "Sometimes the easy way is not the best way. The "I'm not suggesting" technique (Track 6)" - Secrets of Power Persuasion Alan Watts - "Nothing really happens unless it's in the newspaper. "It's too bad there wasn't a tape recorder"" - Being Aware of Awareness Bill Ehrhart - "The questions themselves were too ugly to ask. You just want to back out quietly and walk away. I did not have the full deck of cards before I could make sense of what I had seen." - Vietnam interview Arthur B. Rubinstein - "History Lesson" - WarGames Bill Ehrhart - "I gave those people every reason to hate me" - Vietnam interview Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay Wax Audio - "Happy Xmas (War is Over) w/George W. Bush & John Lennon" - Cut, Paste and Run Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay David Weinstein - "A surprise sound collage, Kenzo's historical vaults are 7 thousand gazillion samples deep" - Ridgewood Radio from some weeks ago Girl Talk - "Broken Ankles Intro" - Broken Ankles Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay Alan Watts - "Purposely arrange and discipline in accordance with foresight and words and systems of symbols and accountancy" [Once you start thinking about things, you worry if you've thought enough] Bill Ehrhart - "You found ways of keeping your thoughts well within the environment that you were dealing with" - Vietnam interviews Jonathan Glazer - "Person making anything being completely attached and on other hand unattached. It's all in orbit all the time" - Under the Skin interview Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay Ralph Nader - "Ambassador was utterly disruptive rather than diplomatic. We need 1% of the people to take control congress" - On Contact with Chris Hedges Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay Christian Vasseur - "le voyage extraordinaire" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 Christian Vasseur - "prelude d'un autre temps I" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 Vietnam interviews - "The only people who benefit from our tax laws are the very wealthy or the very poor" The Outfield - "Say It Isn't So loops" - Play Deep [Tell me I'm the only one. Without you I can't go on.] Gary Wright - "Dream Weaver" - The Dream Weaver Cliff Martinez - "Death Shall Have No Dominion" - Solaris Mirah - "The apple? You can have two snails." Ken - "What happened was...my friend died. Overlapping obsessions. Beaconing out his helpful ways. Boldly share your thing. You have to do it." [I have a lot of stuff. (with Cliff Martinez, then Garth Stevenson)] Garth Stevenson - "The Southern Sea" - Flying Arthur B. Rubinstein - "History Lesson" - WarGames [Not in archive] https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/89948

Garth Stevenson - "The Southern Sea" - Flying Jared Leto - "Did I fall asleep? Sometimes I don't sleep" - Mr. Nobody Garth Stevenson - "The Southern Sea" - Flying Mirah - "We don't have that sticker in this book" Meg Ryan - "It's off in the distance, it came into the room, it's here in the circle" - In the Cut Cliff Martinez - "Death Shall Have No Dominion" - Solaris Ken - "It's all so fleeting" In the Cut - "Street sounds" - In the Cut In the Cut - "Street sounds, footsteps" - In the Cut Ken - "We can't just create everything. We can leave a wake. (I hadn't told you lately.)" Mirah - "I don't want to get my hands dirty (I didn't want to get my mouth dirty)" Meg Ryan - "Midway along the journey of our life I woke to find myself in a dark wood, for I had wandered off from the straight path" - In the Cut Jared Leto - "I think about how it was. It's all I have left. What do you see when you look at me? A grumpy old man who never answers questions? Who mixes everything up? Who's kept busy by getting his meals?" - Mr. Nobody [That's not me] Alan Watts - "You can slip into this state of consciousness. We're all masters. How do you grow each hair without thinking about it?" - The Nature of Consciousness [You are omnipotent.] Boards of Canada - "Collapse" - Tomorrow's Harvest Alan Watts - "Excerpt" - Out of Your Mind Jonathan Glazer - "What would be on the radio? It's not a choice. In fact, turn the radio on now and find out what's on the radio. Because that is what's on the radio." - Under the Skin interview Jared Leto - "Did I fall asleep?" - Mr. Nobody Patrick McGoohan - "One day you'll go too far, and I'll die and beat you all. I'm a prisoner, too." - The Prisoner, episode 9: Checkmate Bill Ehrhart - "Found ways of keeping your thoughts well within the environment you were in" Meg Ryan - "The stillwaters of your mouth under a frond of stars, under a thicket of kisses" - In the Cut Jared Leto - "Sometimes I don't sleep" - Mr. Nobody Boards of Canada - "Collapse" - Tomorrow's Harvest Olafur Arnalds - "30:55" - Eulogy for Evolution Vietnam interviews - "We were brought never to question authority. The gov't was right, policeman, mom and dad, anyone in authority knew what was best. Shouldn't I let my gov't know I think they're crazy?" Meg Ryan - "Thinking back over the course of my passion. Unafraid of the dark" - In the Cut Meg Ryan, sounds - "Street, siren, school bell" - In the Cut Vietnam interviews - "It's so obvious that the war is fixed around the dollar. Somebody's making money. That's why this war has been prolonged" Edd Kalehoff - "The Price is Right theme" - The Price is Right Jonathan Glazer - "Turn the radio on now, that's what should be on the radio. In fact, that sort of is what's on the radio" The Professor (Michael Pool) - "Tech support. No idea what a paperclip is" - The Audio Kitchen 8/20/2003 [RIP] Thatcher Keats - Rancho Thatchmo with Thatcher Keats 2/20/19 Boards of Canada - "?" - Tomorrow's Harvest 3-2-1 Contact - "I hate noise. I'm out here measuring some of the sounds we live with, and I'm telling you, they're pretty awful" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet Meg Ryan - "Alone, the sedge has withered" - In the Cut Firefall - "Always" Jared Leto - "Sometimes I don't sleep" - Mr. Nobody 3-2-1 Contact - "This music's really beautiful, isn't it? Yeah" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet 3-2-1 Contact - "We hear so many different sounds" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet 3-2-1 Contact - "Being a rock musician caused the hearing loss (122 decibels)" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet Thatcher Keats - "Baby's got it going on" - Rancho Thatchmo with Thatcher Keats 2/20/19 Louis Armstrong - "We Have All the Time in the World" [Loops] The Generational Divide - "Teachers, schools, slow using computers. It takes hours. Technology is uncomfortable instead of seamless and nice" Patrick McGoohan, George Coulouris - "Why do both sides look alike? Judge by attitudes." - The Prisoner, episode 9: Checkmate Jared Leto - "It's all I have left" In the Cut - "Train sounds, music" - In the Cut Girl Talk - "Broken Ankles Intro" In the Cut - "Street, car" - In the Cut 3-2-1 Contact - "Dangerous tool: I don't think it's such a great idea to overhear things. There are so many wonderful things to listen to in the world" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet [What would it be like to live in a silent world?] 3-2-1 Contact - "Hearing test: He's beginning to lose his hearing, from being a rock musician" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet Louis Armstrong - "We Have All the Time in the World" [More loops] Ken - "We're almost over (competing to be doing not quite as well). Everything's going great" [Misunderstandings. Birth. Cancer. Sea of miscommunication. Mold at the bottom of the basket. The snow is beautiful.] Ken - "Identification (being recorded 4 different ways)" Gary Sullivan - "Kenzo will be turning 25 in 2 weeks. It's going to be a festive time" - Bodega Pop Live a few weeks ago Christian Vasseur - "un amour infini" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 3-2-1 Contact - "This music's really beautiful, isn't it? Yeah" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet Albert Brooks, Debbie Reynolds - "Organic peanut butter" - Mother The Generational Divide - "Messaging, emailing each other, these little fun things...that makes sense" 3-2-1 Contact - "We're testing the right side now" - Episode 2: Noisy/Quiet Albert Brooks, Debbie Reynolds - "Honey, there's no difference, it all comes from the same place. Yeah, but, I like the organic" - Mother Girl Talk - "Broken Ankles Intro" - Broken Ankles The Professor (Michael Pool) - "People trade MP3's, and other things on these networks" - The Audio Kitchen 8/20/2003 Moby - "Everloving" - Play Gma - "96 years old" - Last month, last recording Gma - "I don't like darkness (I hope you have a wonderful time tomorrow)" - Other recordings [Put the lamp on. It makes the room look nice. (with Garth Stevenson)] Gma - "Short" Gma twin - "This went on and on and on and on. I was so upset, you have no idea." [Did you put it in the refrigerator? That would be feasible.] Boards of Canada - "Collapse" Gma + twin - "Sharing clothing. I remember a gown I had, and I turned it into dresses for us. I didn't have a sewing machine." [What was the outfit we wore on the first day of junior high?] Christian Vasseur - "sinfonia" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 Gma + twin - "We had to get the same clothes" The Generational Divide - "The structure of school is going to have to change" Ben Stiller, Noah Baumbach - "When I was younger, I was so invested in his grievances, his anger with the world" - The Meyerowitz Stories Christian Vasseur - "tous sur le pont" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 Christian Vasseur - "Food Cook Mood" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay Roger Dawson - "Sometimes the easy way is not the best way. The "I'm not suggesting" technique (Track 6)" - Secrets of Power Persuasion Alan Watts - "Nothing really happens unless it's in the newspaper. "It's too bad there wasn't a tape recorder"" - Being Aware of Awareness Bill Ehrhart - "The questions themselves were too ugly to ask. You just want to back out quietly and walk away. I did not have the full deck of cards before I could make sense of what I had seen." - Vietnam interview Arthur B. Rubinstein - "History Lesson" - WarGames Bill Ehrhart - "I gave those people every reason to hate me" - Vietnam interview Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay Wax Audio - "Happy Xmas (War is Over) w/George W. Bush & John Lennon" - Cut, Paste and Run Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay David Weinstein - "A surprise sound collage, Kenzo's historical vaults are 7 thousand gazillion samples deep" - Ridgewood Radio from some weeks ago Girl Talk - "Broken Ankles Intro" - Broken Ankles Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay Alan Watts - "Purposely arrange and discipline in accordance with foresight and words and systems of symbols and accountancy" [Once you start thinking about things, you worry if you've thought enough] Bill Ehrhart - "You found ways of keeping your thoughts well within the environment that you were dealing with" - Vietnam interviews Jonathan Glazer - "Person making anything being completely attached and on other hand unattached. It's all in orbit all the time" - Under the Skin interview Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay Ralph Nader - "Ambassador was utterly disruptive rather than diplomatic. We need 1% of the people to take control congress" - On Contact with Chris Hedges Dexy's Midnight Runners - "Come On Eileen loops" - Too-Rye-Ay Christian Vasseur - "le voyage extraordinaire" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 Christian Vasseur - "prelude d'un autre temps I" - A La Limite Du Present vol 3 of 3 Vietnam interviews - "The only people who benefit from our tax laws are the very wealthy or the very poor" The Outfield - "Say It Isn't So loops" - Play Deep [Tell me I'm the only one. Without you I can't go on.] Gary Wright - "Dream Weaver" - The Dream Weaver Cliff Martinez - "Death Shall Have No Dominion" - Solaris Mirah - "The apple? You can have two snails." Ken - "What happened was...my friend died. Overlapping obsessions. Beaconing out his helpful ways. Boldly share your thing. You have to do it." [I have a lot of stuff. (with Cliff Martinez, then Garth Stevenson)] Garth Stevenson - "The Southern Sea" - Flying Arthur B. Rubinstein - "History Lesson" - WarGames [Not in archive] http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/89948

Amazonas, Johnson und Busse bauen. Immer wieder Brexit. Und was geht dann mit Irland? AfD und SPD in Sachsen ist wie Verdi, rot blau. Welcher Totenkopf ist eigentlich noch geeignet für einen Garagen Sprech Siegelring? Lebenslang sind 15 Jahre und was ist mit dem Soli? Mittelstand, Rentenpunkte und die Neidkultur. Was kostet eigentlich Urlaub? Alter Falter!! Und dann der Absinth-Brunnen ... Hokuto no Ken "What is love", Pee Pee Poo Poo Party, und der Leberwurst Song Gamescom. Und die Kaufkraft der Generation Ü50! Und dann kriegen wir den Puls noch mal über 70. Wir reden über's Klima. Wie sind wir jetzt noch auf die Krim abgerutscht? Egal, bis hierhin schafft es sowieso keiner. Intro Musik: Urban Spy 1 http://www.pacdv.com/sounds/free-music-19.html

Pythagoron - "Untitled (1)" - Pythagoron Pythagoron - "Untitled (2)" - Pythagoron Ken - "So simple today" Brian Eno - "New Space Music" - Neroli (Thinking Music Part IV) (Expanded Edition) Ken - "Young lovers monologue" [Everywhere I go, people are talking. They're just talking. I'm not sure if they're talking about anything. Last night, they talked and talked, up into an almost frenzied anxiety. And suddenly, there wasn't any talking. Suddenly, it was very sudden, no talking at all. I thought maybe I heard...liquidy sounds...touching, sticking, rubbing...sounds of contact... It cast the talking in a new light. Maybe they didn't want to be talking at all. I wondered what that transitional moment looked like. Who began it? And had that been the plan all along? Or was it just a plan for one of them? Maybe one of them really wanted to talk. The other one just wanted to feel. So they implicitly agreed to do both, take turns. They closed the door. Not for very long. It wasn't much longer. And then she showed him to the door, and said goodnight. I didn't notice that he said anything. It didn't seem like they talked about it. I'm not sure how they felt. Satisfied, tired, desirous, in a trance, finished, infinite. They've been here for about 20 years. Maybe they'll be here for another 60 more. I wonder what else they'll find to talk about. And what ways they'll find to move together. And who else they'll find out that they are. And how often will they feel complete, how often will they be striving, how often will they feel infinite. Maybe everything they know will be gone. And they'll be learning anew. They'll be adapting. And they'll be regressing. They'll be playing games, designed to keep them comfortable, and to relive their childhood, to relive their twentyhood. Maybe they'll always remember this night. Maybe he'll remember everything that was said. Maybe she'll remember everything that was felt. Or maybe only you'll remember. I'm waiting up for you. I'm sitting around the corners. I'm off in the edges. I'm just waiting quietly. And I'm witnessing with curiosity, with kindness. I'm also trying to figure it all out. Maybe I'll be here for 60 more years. And maybe I'll remember this, and what was said, and what was felt. Thank you for witnessing.] Ken - "Identification (waiting right around the edge)" [I'll keep going until I'm done.] Brian Eno - "New Space Music" - Neroli (Thinking Music Part IV) (Expanded Edition) Ken - "Find the way to make everything easier. It can be simple. You can decide." [Just a few things, just a few people, just what's right around you right now.] Ken - "Identification" Brian Eno - "New Space Music" - Neroli (Thinking Music Part IV) (Expanded Edition) Carly Rae Jepsen - "Call Me Maybe (pitch and speed shifted)" [Layered with Brian Eno] Brian Eno - "New Space Music" - Neroli (Thinking Music Part IV) (Expanded Edition) Ken - "Constrasts to simplicity. Up all night waiting in the shadows" [I said good morning as she came from her morning run with her dog. The sun was behind her, rising. She glistened. She'd been running in the morning heat with her dog, as I headed off towards bed, up all night waiting in the shadows.] Ken - "What else is left to do?" [The alarm goes off. All the time's up. And then it goes quiet again. What else could I do? What else is left to do? There's nothing. Just nothing. There's nothing left.] Will Geer, Rock Hudson (actors), Lewis John Carlino (screenplay), David Ely (novel), John Frankenheimer (director) - "I sure hoped you'd made it, find your dream come true" - Seconds [(Maybe I never had a dream.) Life is built on wishes, and you've gotta keep plugging away at them. You can't give up, and you can't let the mistakes jeopardize the dream.] Stars of the Lid - "Another Ballad for Heavy Lids" Leyland Kirby - "This is the Story of Paradise Lost" - Eager To Tear Apart The Stars [(Possibly No Longer Distance)] Murray Hamilton (written by Lewis John Carlino, David Ely) - "I had to find out where I went wrong (it's going to be different from now on)" - Seconds Leyland Kirby - "No Longer Distance Than Death" - Eager To Tear Apart The Stars [(Possibly This is the Story)] Ken - "It's almost too late to start" Patricia Arquette (actor), Quentin Tarantino (writer), Hans Zimmer (music), Tony Scott (director) - "Sometimes it goes the other way, too" - True Romance [Amid the chaos of that day] Ken - "That's it; as disjoint as reality" Leyland Kirby - "No Longer Distance Than Death" - Eager To Tear Apart The Stars [(Possibly This is the Story)] https://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/87109

Pythagoron - "Untitled (1)" - Pythagoron Pythagoron - "Untitled (2)" - Pythagoron Ken - "So simple today" Brian Eno - "New Space Music" - Neroli (Thinking Music Part IV) (Expanded Edition) Ken - "Young lovers monologue" [Everywhere I go, people are talking. They're just talking. I'm not sure if they're talking about anything. Last night, they talked and talked, up into an almost frenzied anxiety. And suddenly, there wasn't any talking. Suddenly, it was very sudden, no talking at all. I thought maybe I heard...liquidy sounds...touching, sticking, rubbing...sounds of contact... It cast the talking in a new light. Maybe they didn't want to be talking at all. I wondered what that transitional moment looked like. Who began it? And had that been the plan all along? Or was it just a plan for one of them? Maybe one of them really wanted to talk. The other one just wanted to feel. So they implicitly agreed to do both, take turns. They closed the door. Not for very long. It wasn't much longer. And then she showed him to the door, and said goodnight. I didn't notice that he said anything. It didn't seem like they talked about it. I'm not sure how they felt. Satisfied, tired, desirous, in a trance, finished, infinite. They've been here for about 20 years. Maybe they'll be here for another 60 more. I wonder what else they'll find to talk about. And what ways they'll find to move together. And who else they'll find out that they are. And how often will they feel complete, how often will they be striving, how often will they feel infinite. Maybe everything they know will be gone. And they'll be learning anew. They'll be adapting. And they'll be regressing. They'll be playing games, designed to keep them comfortable, and to relive their childhood, to relive their twentyhood. Maybe they'll always remember this night. Maybe he'll remember everything that was said. Maybe she'll remember everything that was felt. Or maybe only you'll remember. I'm waiting up for you. I'm sitting around the corners. I'm off in the edges. I'm just waiting quietly. And I'm witnessing with curiosity, with kindness. I'm also trying to figure it all out. Maybe I'll be here for 60 more years. And maybe I'll remember this, and what was said, and what was felt. Thank you for witnessing.] Ken - "Identification (waiting right around the edge)" [I'll keep going until I'm done.] Brian Eno - "New Space Music" - Neroli (Thinking Music Part IV) (Expanded Edition) Ken - "Find the way to make everything easier. It can be simple. You can decide." [Just a few things, just a few people, just what's right around you right now.] Ken - "Identification" Brian Eno - "New Space Music" - Neroli (Thinking Music Part IV) (Expanded Edition) Carly Rae Jepsen - "Call Me Maybe (pitch and speed shifted)" [Layered with Brian Eno] Brian Eno - "New Space Music" - Neroli (Thinking Music Part IV) (Expanded Edition) Ken - "Constrasts to simplicity. Up all night waiting in the shadows" [I said good morning as she came from her morning run with her dog. The sun was behind her, rising. She glistened. She'd been running in the morning heat with her dog, as I headed off towards bed, up all night waiting in the shadows.] Ken - "What else is left to do?" [The alarm goes off. All the time's up. And then it goes quiet again. What else could I do? What else is left to do? There's nothing. Just nothing. There's nothing left.] Will Geer, Rock Hudson (actors), Lewis John Carlino (screenplay), David Ely (novel), John Frankenheimer (director) - "I sure hoped you'd made it, find your dream come true" - Seconds [(Maybe I never had a dream.) Life is built on wishes, and you've gotta keep plugging away at them. You can't give up, and you can't let the mistakes jeopardize the dream.] Stars of the Lid - "Another Ballad for Heavy Lids" Leyland Kirby - "This is the Story of Paradise Lost" - Eager To Tear Apart The Stars [(Possibly No Longer Distance)] Murray Hamilton (written by Lewis John Carlino, David Ely) - "I had to find out where I went wrong (it's going to be different from now on)" - Seconds Leyland Kirby - "No Longer Distance Than Death" - Eager To Tear Apart The Stars [(Possibly This is the Story)] Ken - "It's almost too late to start" Patricia Arquette (actor), Quentin Tarantino (writer), Hans Zimmer (music), Tony Scott (director) - "Sometimes it goes the other way, too" - True Romance [Amid the chaos of that day] Ken - "That's it; as disjoint as reality" Leyland Kirby - "No Longer Distance Than Death" - Eager To Tear Apart The Stars [(Possibly This is the Story)] http://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/87109

The boys are back in their seats and happy to be here. Last week's episode was sans BaggedMilk and Cooom, and they are back this week.    The big news this week of course was the big news that the Oilers found their man in Ken Holland. If you haven't had a chance to check that news out we have written a few things about it this week: Waiting on Holland Is Ken Holland enough of a change for the Oilers? Nervous? Over to you, Ken What to expect from Ken Holland Restless Holland: Step One Inside the Nation: Did you hear there is a new GM? A Winning Culture Oilers officially announce Ken Holland as POHO and GM, discuss move and future of the franchise Actions Will Speak Louder than Words The boys discuss a little about that move and then some of the domino effect we have/will see. From the news that Ken Hitchcock will not be the coach of the Edmonton Oilers, to the role he will see next and one of the first things that Holland acknowledged in his list of to-dos being goaltending.  The third round of the playoffs kicked off and the guys give some insight into that as well as looking back on the biggest storyline of this year's playoffs, refereeing and reviews.  Shoutout to Conch for this weeks intro/outro song "Slow Dance". Check him out on Instagram for more info and show dates.

Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "There's So Much Left to Do (what's the secret? finding out by doing)" - Show #435, from June 21, 2012 Graham Chapman - "I'd like to tell you about a minority group of people who have never been deprived" - Monty Python's Flying Circus John Carpenter - "Escape From New York" 3-2-1 Contact - "You do have the tendency to regard the computer as your friend. Do you ever throw your coffee cup at your computer?" Ken Dr. Seuss - "Yertle the Turtle" Disney World - "Electric Light Parade" Wendy Carlos - "Brandenburg Concerto No. 3?" J.S. Bach - "Brandenburg Concerto?" Margarita Levieva - "The whole secret of power is to make it unresponsive" - Noise (movie) Alan Oppenheimer - "A disease of machinery" - Westworld (movie) [We don't know exactly how they work] Yann Tiersen - "Amelie music backwards" Patricia Arquette, Christian Slater - "When it comes to relationships, I'm 100%" - True Romance (movie) Melvyn Douglas - "There's so much left to do" - Being There (movie) Hans Zimmer - "You're So Cool" - True Romance s.t. [Like Carl Orff Badlands] Ken - "Is there something underneath? I'm trying not to think" Melvyn Douglas - "There's so much left to do" - Being There Billy Bob Thornton - "It seemed like I knew a secret, something none of them knew" - The Man Who Wasn't There (movie) [Like I had made it to the outside, and they were all still struggling below] Radiohead - "Let Down" - OK Computer [Layers] Self-help guy Current electropoppy music Mark Mothersbaugh - "Sharp Little Guy" - Rushmore s.t. Bill Murray - "What's the secret, Max?" - Rushmore (movie) Mel Harris, Ken Olin - "It wasn't any good. You make it look so easy!" - thirtySomething Martin Donovan, Rebecca Nelson - "When I feel this, I'm usually thinking of you. I appreciate being taken seriously, but I'm always concerned I'm not sufficiently serios" - Surviving Desire (movie) [Hal Hartley] Max Gail - "An operator pressed the wrong button" - Whiz Kids [80's computer tv show] Rebecca Nelson - "I'm afraid of seeming gullible, so I'm argumentative more than I should be" - Surviving Desire (movie) Jason Schwartzman, Bill Murray, Wes Anderson, Owen Wilson, Mark Mothersbaugh - "The secret?" - Rushmore (movie) Penguin Cafe Orchestra Martin Donovan, Rebecca Nelson, Hal Hartley - "But we're not! (Not what?) Sleeping together. (Not yet, anyway.)" - Surviving Desire (movie) Bill Murray - "Yeah, you seem to have it pretty figured out." - Rushmore (movie) Bob Dylan - "A Series of Dreams" [Loops] Neutral Milk Hotel - "The King of Carrot Flowers (Part One)" [Loops] Yann Tiersen - "Amelie music backwards" - Amelie s.t. Stone Roses - "Elephant Stone" [Loops] Ally Sheedy, Emilio Estevez - "You have problems. Where do you want me to go? Go away!" - The Breakfast Club [with loops of scene's ambient music] Mark Margolis - "When your mind becomes obsessed with anything, you will filter everything else out and find that thing everywhere" - Pi (movie) Kyle MacLachlan - "Every day, once a day, give yourself a present" - Twin Peaks Penguin Cafe Orchestra Ken - "I never know what it is (something must be making sense) I wasn't thinking anything, so everything was fine." Mark Mothersbaugh - "Snowflake Music" - Bottle Rocket s.t. Rebecca Nelson, Hal Hartley - "Do you think I'm very beautiful?" - Surviving Desire (movie) [If you never see me again after tonight, will you be sad? Will you be tortured by the memory of having been with me, of having caressed me? Will you wonder if I've been with other men? Will you become jealous, will you become obsessed? Will you carry your disappointment around with you forever? Will you be maudlin and anti-social? Will you get into fights? Will you expect other women to be somehow more like me? My mouth, my eyes, the way I wear my hair? Will you? Will you be like that, you think? It's the nature of things, you know: Regret.] Schubert Mogwai Leo Delibes - "Lakme: The Flower Duet" John Carpenter - "Escape From New York" Malcolm X - "You and I have never seen democracy, all we've seen is hypocrisy" [Stop talking about The South. As long as you're south of the Canadian border, you're south] Malcolm X - "There were two kinds of slaves: House negroes and field negroes" [Whenever the master said we, he said we. That's how you could tell it was a house negro. If the master got sick, the house negro would say, what's the matter, boss, we sick?] Spiro Agnew - "Their powers of choice are broad. They decide what 50 million Americans will learn of today's world. These men can create national issues overnight." - "Whale sounds" Modest Mouse - "sleepwalkin'" [Loop] Jimmy Carter - "A Crisis of Confidence" [Our people are losing their faith. We've discovered that owning things and consuming things does not satisfy our longing for meaning. Speech text] WTJU - "Promo fragment" Ken - "What happens now?" Modest Mouse - "sleepwalkin'" [Loops forward and backward] Judy Garland - "I'm outraged about many things" - Judy Garland Speaks! [Now I'm going to talk back] Firesign Theatre - "Hey, man, you broke the president!" - I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus [Read me doctor memory?] Ken - "Dream recording" Air Supply - "Making Love (Out of Nothing at All)" [Piano loop] Golden Arm Trio Spiro Agnew - "Networks" Diane Cluck - "Talking live before show in Denver, CO" Yann Tiersen - "Amelie music" - Amelie s.t. Camper Van Beethoven - "Sweethearts" - Key Lime Pie Peter Finch - "The people spoke! The people won! That sort of thing is not likely to happen again" - Network (movie) Golden Arm Trio? - "Mysterious music" Malcolm X - "What do you mean, separate? Where can I find better clothes than this?" - "Loopy" Fleetwood Mac - "Big Love (live)" [Repeating] Radiohead - "Let Down" The Carpenters - "Calling Occupants (of Interplanetary Craft)" - Passage [By Klaatu] Hans Zimmer - "You're So Cool" - True Romance s.t. Ken - "Transitions: How it all started" Bill Murray, Jason Schwartzman - "What's the secret? You seem to have it pretty figured out. I think you've got to find something you love to do, and then do it for the rest of your life" - Rushmore (movie) The Beatles - "Good Night" - The White Album David Cronenberg - "Forbidden images coming to you from a distant place that had great resonance for you" - The Directors: The Films of David Cronenberg Matthew Broderick - "Let's say all you ever knew were apples. Now you can make a decision. That's democracy" - Election https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/79666

Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "There's So Much Left to Do (what's the secret? finding out by doing)" - Show #435, from June 21, 2012 Graham Chapman - "I'd like to tell you about a minority group of people who have never been deprived" - Monty Python's Flying Circus John Carpenter - "Escape From New York" 3-2-1 Contact - "You do have the tendency to regard the computer as your friend. Do you ever throw your coffee cup at your computer?" Ken Dr. Seuss - "Yertle the Turtle" Disney World - "Electric Light Parade" Wendy Carlos - "Brandenburg Concerto No. 3?" J.S. Bach - "Brandenburg Concerto?" Margarita Levieva - "The whole secret of power is to make it unresponsive" - Noise (movie) Alan Oppenheimer - "A disease of machinery" - Westworld (movie) [We don't know exactly how they work] Yann Tiersen - "Amelie music backwards" Patricia Arquette, Christian Slater - "When it comes to relationships, I'm 100%" - True Romance (movie) Melvyn Douglas - "There's so much left to do" - Being There (movie) Hans Zimmer - "You're So Cool" - True Romance s.t. [Like Carl Orff Badlands] Ken - "Is there something underneath? I'm trying not to think" Melvyn Douglas - "There's so much left to do" - Being There Billy Bob Thornton - "It seemed like I knew a secret, something none of them knew" - The Man Who Wasn't There (movie) [Like I had made it to the outside, and they were all still struggling below] Radiohead - "Let Down" - OK Computer [Layers] Self-help guy Current electropoppy music Mark Mothersbaugh - "Sharp Little Guy" - Rushmore s.t. Bill Murray - "What's the secret, Max?" - Rushmore (movie) Mel Harris, Ken Olin - "It wasn't any good. You make it look so easy!" - thirtySomething Martin Donovan, Rebecca Nelson - "When I feel this, I'm usually thinking of you. I appreciate being taken seriously, but I'm always concerned I'm not sufficiently serios" - Surviving Desire (movie) [Hal Hartley] Max Gail - "An operator pressed the wrong button" - Whiz Kids [80's computer tv show] Rebecca Nelson - "I'm afraid of seeming gullible, so I'm argumentative more than I should be" - Surviving Desire (movie) Jason Schwartzman, Bill Murray, Wes Anderson, Owen Wilson, Mark Mothersbaugh - "The secret?" - Rushmore (movie) Penguin Cafe Orchestra Martin Donovan, Rebecca Nelson, Hal Hartley - "But we're not! (Not what?) Sleeping together. (Not yet, anyway.)" - Surviving Desire (movie) Bill Murray - "Yeah, you seem to have it pretty figured out." - Rushmore (movie) Bob Dylan - "A Series of Dreams" [Loops] Neutral Milk Hotel - "The King of Carrot Flowers (Part One)" [Loops] Yann Tiersen - "Amelie music backwards" - Amelie s.t. Stone Roses - "Elephant Stone" [Loops] Ally Sheedy, Emilio Estevez - "You have problems. Where do you want me to go? Go away!" - The Breakfast Club [with loops of scene's ambient music] Mark Margolis - "When your mind becomes obsessed with anything, you will filter everything else out and find that thing everywhere" - Pi (movie) Kyle MacLachlan - "Every day, once a day, give yourself a present" - Twin Peaks Penguin Cafe Orchestra Ken - "I never know what it is (something must be making sense) I wasn't thinking anything, so everything was fine." Mark Mothersbaugh - "Snowflake Music" - Bottle Rocket s.t. Rebecca Nelson, Hal Hartley - "Do you think I'm very beautiful?" - Surviving Desire (movie) [If you never see me again after tonight, will you be sad? Will you be tortured by the memory of having been with me, of having caressed me? Will you wonder if I've been with other men? Will you become jealous, will you become obsessed? Will you carry your disappointment around with you forever? Will you be maudlin and anti-social? Will you get into fights? Will you expect other women to be somehow more like me? My mouth, my eyes, the way I wear my hair? Will you? Will you be like that, you think? It's the nature of things, you know: Regret.] Schubert Mogwai Leo Delibes - "Lakme: The Flower Duet" John Carpenter - "Escape From New York" Malcolm X - "You and I have never seen democracy, all we've seen is hypocrisy" [Stop talking about The South. As long as you're south of the Canadian border, you're south] Malcolm X - "There were two kinds of slaves: House negroes and field negroes" [Whenever the master said we, he said we. That's how you could tell it was a house negro. If the master got sick, the house negro would say, what's the matter, boss, we sick?] Spiro Agnew - "Their powers of choice are broad. They decide what 50 million Americans will learn of today's world. These men can create national issues overnight." - "Whale sounds" Modest Mouse - "sleepwalkin'" [Loop] Jimmy Carter - "A Crisis of Confidence" [Our people are losing their faith. We've discovered that owning things and consuming things does not satisfy our longing for meaning. Speech text] WTJU - "Promo fragment" Ken - "What happens now?" Modest Mouse - "sleepwalkin'" [Loops forward and backward] Judy Garland - "I'm outraged about many things" - Judy Garland Speaks! [Now I'm going to talk back] Firesign Theatre - "Hey, man, you broke the president!" - I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus [Read me doctor memory?] Ken - "Dream recording" Air Supply - "Making Love (Out of Nothing at All)" [Piano loop] Golden Arm Trio Spiro Agnew - "Networks" Diane Cluck - "Talking live before show in Denver, CO" Yann Tiersen - "Amelie music" - Amelie s.t. Camper Van Beethoven - "Sweethearts" - Key Lime Pie Peter Finch - "The people spoke! The people won! That sort of thing is not likely to happen again" - Network (movie) Golden Arm Trio? - "Mysterious music" Malcolm X - "What do you mean, separate? Where can I find better clothes than this?" - "Loopy" Fleetwood Mac - "Big Love (live)" [Repeating] Radiohead - "Let Down" The Carpenters - "Calling Occupants (of Interplanetary Craft)" - Passage [By Klaatu] Hans Zimmer - "You're So Cool" - True Romance s.t. Ken - "Transitions: How it all started" Bill Murray, Jason Schwartzman - "What's the secret? You seem to have it pretty figured out. I think you've got to find something you love to do, and then do it for the rest of your life" - Rushmore (movie) The Beatles - "Good Night" - The White Album David Cronenberg - "Forbidden images coming to you from a distant place that had great resonance for you" - The Directors: The Films of David Cronenberg Matthew Broderick - "Let's say all you ever knew were apples. Now you can make a decision. That's democracy" - Election http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/79666

In this episode of Building Infinite Red, we talk about the importance of education and experience when starting out in software development and how things change when you move from making your products to running your business. From books and online resources to bootcamps and higher education programs, Jamon, Ken, and Todd share their stories, insights, and opinions for every level of professional. Show Links & Resources Lambda School Austin Allred on Twitter Epicodus Airtable Episode Transcript TODD WERTH: Today's topic is education. I actually don't recall what this topic's about. Ken, do you recall? KEN MILLER: Yeah. Well, it's this question that kind of comes up periodically about developers and CS degrees and that kind of thing. I think there was a Twitter thread a little while back in Jamon's feed, because Jamon's feed is the only feed that matters. TODD: That's a fact. Yeah. KEN: Yeah, do you remember who that was, Jamon? JAMON HOLMGREN: Yeah. The question was, "I have 10 years experience developing sites, but I have no formal education. What are your thoughts on experience versus education? Been thinking of getting a front end development tech degree from Treehouse, but I'm not sure if it's worth the time and money." Yeah. That is a question that does come up fairy regularly. KEN: For that specific question, I think the answer is no, it's probably not worth it, right? If you have 10 years of experience, and you're going to go take basically a practical degree, don't bother. JAMON: Right. KEN: But there are definitely nice things about getting a real CS degree, but getting a job is not necessarily the best reason to do it. JAMON: Right. KEN: If that make sense. TODD: I would totally agree with that. Well, just to start out, the three of us, Jamon nor I have finished college, nor do we have any CS degrees. I learned to program on my own when I was a child, probably started when I was 12. And then I started programming professionally when I was about 24, and then I learned basically on the job. Ken went to Harvard and got a CS degree there. Jamon, you are similar to me, right? JAMON: I was pretty similar to you, yeah. TODD: Yeah. So what I usually tell people, A, now, when I'm hiring people and I'm not representative of everyone, so it's quite a bit different, I do a cursory glance of their resume, maybe. That's less relevant to me than what they can do. In my opinion, developers is a portfolio job, which means the work you've done is hugely more important than any kind of education. Now, obviously if you do have a CS degree, I do find people want CS degrees, they understand some concepts that you maybe don't use day-to-day, and when they do come up, they have a much better understanding of that. Sometimes it's easier to teach them new ideas, because they have the analogy in their mind already. So it's definitely worth it. I would say, my short answer and I'd love to expand on this further in this podcast, but my short answer is you need to learn what you need to learn in order to produce work product, which means develop software, develop websites, develop apps. And everyone has a different way of learning. For some people, school is the best way. For me, school always bored the hell out of me to be honest, and it wasn't the best way for me, but there's no exact right way for everyone. It's just however it works best for you. JAMON: Yeah. And I think that part of this is how much access and opportunity you have, because certainly college is one fairly proven path toward gaining an opportunity to access the job market, to get enough skills that you're hireable out of the gate, and then to access the job market and actually get a little bit of exposure, whether it's through an internship or something like that. So that plays into this as well, if your dad was a software engineer or something, and he has contacts that you can talk to and maybe get some opportunities, then maybe you don't need that, maybe you don't need to go down that road. But there are few other factors here as well. Some of them are personal goals, like what type of programming, like Todd was saying, what type of programming you want to do, how much debt you're willing to take on, how much you can take on. And then also, in some cases, very specific cases, the prestige of the university can be a factor because it certainly opens doors for Ken that Todd and I don't have. TODD: I do want to interject real quick before you jump in, Ken. Going to university has many, many benefits that have nothing to do with getting a job, and those are a super valuable if you have the opportunity. They're worth it. But specifically about a job is what I was talking about. KEN: As a life experience, college is great. If you have the opportunity, you should probably do it. Getting a job as a programmer per se is not a good reason to go to college in my opinion. Now, if what you want to do is get a job at Google, or one of the places that is well-known for preferring CS graduates, especially from elite schools, then you should do that, you absolutely should do that. You're going to have a much, much, much harder time doing that. But also, more to the point, Google has I think fairly reasonable case for it in certain ways, because they are actually dealing with the high level intense CS concepts more than your typical programmer job. TODD: Correct. KEN: Now, I think where the problem comes in the market is that if Goggle does it, then we should do the same thing and then we'll be successful like Google. And the vast majority of companies out there do not need that. And I can also definitely tell you, from my own experience, from the people that I've watched, is that getting a CS degree, they're teaching you the fundamentals of how computers work. In Harvard's case especially. They're very much on the theory stuff. But even a more typical CS degree is very much about the background, the hopefully unchanging fundamentals, and not so much how do you design a build system. Todd? TODD: Yeah. I want to rant a little about a CS degree. CS, I'm sure all of you know is computer science. It is really that, it's computer science. Scientists don't make things. They discover things, and they ponder about things. For example, a physicist and a chemist may work together to make some sort of new alloy, but they're not going to design an airplane. That's what engineers do. If you get a computer science degree, you learn the science of computers. You could actually get a computer science degree, and correct me if I'm wrong Ken, and not learn to program at all. KEN: That would be pretty rare. You do have to know some programming in order to do a lot of the things that they teach you- TODD: But you could do like abstract programming that doesn't actually work. Like, say you're developing an algorithm. It's not- KEN: Yeah. I would say that would be pretty atypical, but there's definitely classes that don't require a lot of coding. TODD: I'm exaggerating to make a point. KEN: Some of it is straight up math. Yeah. TODD: Right, which is different than engineering. KEN: Well, and a good engineer should understand the science obviously. Yeah. JAMON: And I think one of the things to know is that, in my career certainly, and I'd like to hear from both you, Todd and Ken, I haven't noticed a huge market difference between the software engineers that I work with that have degrees, versus those that do not. I often don't know which of them have degrees and which do not. It's not always a strong correlation between their ... or it hasn't been a strong correlation in my career with performance. I think there's some characteristics that are positives for people that come from a CS degree background versus others who maybe come from a bootcamp background, or Todd and myself maybe learned out of a book basically and experience, but in my experience it's not something that is ... there may be differences, but they're not significant. TODD: I think it depends on the situation. When you teach people you notice it more. For experienced people, people who have a decade under their belt, no, there's no different. For new people, someone who comes out of school with a CS degree will understand concepts, and I think it's easier to teach them to be honest, in that way. Real quick, I personally started ... well, I started programming privately, but that was just me programming games and that kind of stuff, stuff I enjoyed personally. But professionally, I started building software. So I started out as a builder, a maker, over the years formed myself into an engineer, and then during that, got interested in the CS stuff and learned that stuff too. So I got to the same result, just in a different path. KEN: That's totally true. You can absolutely learn all this stuff on your own later if you're that kind of person. I think what the reliance on CS degrees doesn't really take into account, is that 90% of programming out there is essentially business automation, for a loose definition of business, but it's basically business automation. I mean, yes, okay, there's sort of a sector on high performance computing, or scientific simulations. Honestly, the one that in some ways benefits the most from formal education, believe it or not, is games, because there you need the linear algebra and the harder math, and your performance constraint in ways that mean you're more likely to be coming up with novel algorithms than you are in your typical business program. Jamon? JAMON: It's surprising how rare it is to encounter those types of situations in typical applications, like mobile applications and web. You just don't really run into it. KEN: Right. So, the kind of people who are going to excel at your, like I said, very typical business automation, style programming, user interface design, et cetera, et cetera, are actually going to be people who sometimes were not computer people before, because they're going to have more connection and empathy with the target users. And that ends up making more of a difference to the success of software projects in many cases than your facility with the computer itself. TODD: Yeah. Let me give you a real example from myself, because I started out very practical, and then later got interested in the CS concepts and stuff. Just purely for my own interest and stuff, and that did help to a point in my engineering career, but I did a project circa 2001 or something like that, and we would display, as a website, and we would display a map for the user, and they click somewhere else on the map and we had to calculate, based on the pixel difference between where we knew they were and where they clicked, the difference in direction and distance from the original spot. Now, this required spherical geometry, and the earth actually is not a sphere. It's a little bit like a football actually, to a slight extent. In this case, someone who had a more CS background may have jumped into this easier. I actually had books on my shelf, like college algebra, and college geometry and stuff like that, and I would review these things. And I learned how to do it. It was a successful project and it was very fun, but that's an example because I came from a practical place I had to look that up. Now, on the flip side, I've worked with people with PhDs in computer science, and no offense, bless their hearts, but they would work for two weeks and accomplish literally nothing. And then you'd ask them, "Was that done?" They were like, "I didn't know it was urgent." Well, it was an hour task. That's two weeks ago. And I think they're on a different academic time, because they spent so many years in school, it's just a difference. KEN: Which is, again, not to denigrate the usefulness of them. They're just useful in very specific circumstances and not as general programmers. Jamon? JAMON: I kind of see it as, to use an analogy, like when you're lifting weights, if you lift weights in a way that is very functional, they call it functional, where it's almost like you're lifting a box or ... yes, Todd? TODD: Jamon, for our listeners who may not be familiar with this concept, can you explain what lifting weights is? JAMON: It is this theoretical thing that supposedly some people do. TODD: Can you do it inside of your own home? JAMON: I do now. I built a gym actually. But yes, you lift weights for health. And one of the ideas is that you do this sort of functional strength, where it's something that actually builds up the muscles for lifting boxes, and carrying children, and moving things. So it's very much like you're doing those types of movements, but just with heavier weights. It just makes you stronger in those ways. And then there's other things where you're isolating specific muscles in a way that you would never really do in a day-to-day basis. And university can sometimes be more like that, where you are exercising those muscles, you are making them stronger, but you're not doing it in a way that necessarily replicates what you do in real life. And I think both are necessary. If you just do functional strength training, it will get you so far, but you won't ever hit certain muscles because, like we talked about intense performance or whatever, you might not actually be using those aspects of your brain in a day-to-day basis. But they are good to have for when you need them. So I think that's a decent analogy of what we're talking about here. I think that one of the criticisms that I've had of some of the higher education programs, is that they don't do particularly great job of replicating the real world of what people will actually be doing once they actually get into the job market. You can create a binary tree algorithm, but can you move this button over four pixels to the right? Which is often your first task when you get to work. TODD: Yeah. And I would say that it really depends on the person. In an idea world, if money is no constraint, time is no constraint, yeah, of course I would love to go to university and stuff. But on the flip side, I'm a very practical person and I like to build things, I like to make things. So maybe I went for a few years, but maybe if I would have went that route I wouldn't liked it as much. I would have preferred to just jump in and start getting things done. I think for me ideally was 18, I started doing it, actually doing it for three or four years, and then go to university for maybe two years, and enjoy learning all the concepts I didn't learn. That would have probably been pretty cool for me. JAMON: I realized we're kind of leaning more heavily on the criticism side of this, but one of the criticisms of universities is that they optimize for rewards, like extrinsic rewards. Like, I got this degree, I got this piece of paper, or I did what was necessary to get an A. Where learning to accomplish something to actually expand your mind is a little bit of a different thing. When I started my business I needed to build a website, I had a website to build, and I didn't know how to do it. For me, when I was learning from a book, it was very, very applicable. Like, okay, in order to make a menu, I need to know how to do these things, and it was very, very applicable. Very, very directly applicable. KEN: Well, I'm going to make the positive case ... TODD: Please. KEN: ... for going in and doing it. One is, fair or not, it does open doors. TODD: Correct. KEN: Especially if you're in a good program, but even if you're not, it is used as a hiring filter in a lot of places. I think it's wrong but it's true. That's the very practical sort of level. But to be honest, there's definitely things that I learned there that can save you trouble. I mean, I think they said that what makes a 10x programmer is that they know what not to program. So for example, even the theory class. The theory, computability theory, computational complexity, these sorts of things are more valuable than you might think in certain ways. For example, you're at your start-up. Your boss says, "I want the optimal route to plan on this map. I want to be 100% guaranteed the best route." And you can say, "That's the traveling salesman problem, and it's actually a known hard problem," for example. And it's the kind of thing where it can steer you away from harder problems and towards easier problems. And in engineering frequently what you want to do, you're like, "Let's find a good heuristic instead of trying to solve this optimally." JAMON: It may not give you the answer, but it will give you a framework around the problems that are out there, and the classes of problems that are out there. KEN: Yeah. TODD: Yeah. And I really appreciate that from people who have a higher education than myself. While people were talking, I was thinking of this story. I interviewed for this job, and this guy was asking me technical questions, as they do, and he was a young guy at the time. I was probably 34, he was probably 10 years younger than that or more. And he asked me a question. I don't remember what it was the exact question, but basically he wanted me to accomplish a task, and what he was looking for is how I would technically approach this problem. But I've been an engineer for a long time, and I know what's really important, and I know it makes a 10 times engineer, which is often not actually programing that. So I started off by challenging the fact that he even needed this at all. And logically, he didn't, and he couldn't really explain why he would, so I gave him additional other options that would make this application or this software work much better. Not the answer that he was looking for. But it was the real answer. I used to say a saying all the time. I don't say it much anymore, which is, "There is no code as fast as no code." So in this case, I was just removing his entire problem from him. KEN: I would say it can help you avoid reinventing certain wheels, which might mean that you don't get some amazing solution, because you weren't ignorant enough to know that it couldn't be done. Everyone loves those stories, but 99% of the time that's not how the story goes. And in fact, to the point, I don't know if we're ready to segue into the business conversation we probably we will in a minute, but none of us have any business education. And I'm starting to wonder if it would be worth it to go get like an EMBA or something, so that we're not reinventing so many wheels. I don't know if we're ready for that conversation yet. Jamon, you wanted to say one more thing? JAMON: I have a bunch of other things to say, but I'll intersperse them here. I think that one of the things ... well, Todd actually alluded to this earlier, but the network that you get from going to university for four years with often some of the same people throughout, you get to know them, you do projects together, they have opportunities. A lot of them go on to be quite successful. And being connected to those people in that way is something that lasts for a lifetime. And that's definitely something that should not be undervalued. That's a big advantage, that's something that I did not have. In fact, the only way for me to access a network like that was through ... well, I shouldn't say the only way, but the way that I accessed a network like that was through open source later. TODD: It's true. There's a lot of overeducated crappy engineers doing very well out there. It's true. KEN: It is true. TODD: I mean, it is really true. CHRIS: I was just going to add too, it's fascinating when we have this conversation today. It seems like it's been increasingly becoming more popular to question whether to go to school, or rely upon the tool. So what is it about today that allows us to even question the path forward, that maybe we weren't able to in the past? KEN: We're going to queue that clip from Silicon Valley now. TODD: Yeah. I think it has nothing to do with our particular industry, or development, or any of that stuff. I think it's just because the cost of university education is so extreme right now, that you naturally have to question if it's worth such a huge burden. It wasn't that way for me in the early '90s. I could work and pay for my own college at that time, which I did. That's not possible these days. JAMON: I'm going to agree and disagree with Todd there. I think the cost is definitely a factor, but I also think that this industry is a big factor in that we don't have ... my brother-in-law is a mechanical engineer. He couldn't just go and start mechanical engineering. He can't go out there and just do that. TODD: He could. It's just governed by law. JAMON: Yeah. You have to be a licensed engineer. It's a very- TODD: But there's no reason he couldn't do that if it wasn't for laws. JAMON: There may be a path to becoming a mechanical engineer that doesn't involve university, but it's very hard. I at least know of an architect that did it without going to university and getting a degree. But that is something ... we have a lot of these professional, professions actually have degrees that sort of ... they're barriers to entry. And in order to get through that, the accepted path is to go through universities. Ours does not have that. We can start building websites, or building whatever, just by convincing someone to pay us to do that. KEN: I think there's two points actually. One is part of the disconnect between mechanical engineers and software engineers is that when mechanical engineers fail, people die. JAMON: That's true. KEN: In many cases. That's sometimes true for software engineers too, but it's more true with mechanical engineers. And as a result- JAMON: My brother-in-law works at a plant where if he screws up, there will be hydrogen peroxide blowing miles high in the air. KEN: Yeah. So the stakes are often higher. JAMON: Yes. KEN: But also, if you want to be a serious chemical engineer, there's a lot of capital requirements for any of the things that you're doing, apart from the safety concerns, and that's very real. You're not just going to work on your own because you can't get them, whereas the capital requirements for being a software engineer are extraordinarily low. The access to education materials is extraordinarily high. And you can just try in almost literally anything that you can find out there for education material, you can try with a $500 computer. So there's so many things about the technology world that are in many ways unprecedented, and that's why you're seeing this massive sea change in the economy as it starts to take over more and more of it. And one of our missions here is to help more people in more places be part of that. So getting the message out that although CS degrees are helpful if you have the opportunity, go ahead and do it if it interests you, but it's not necessary if you just want to be part of this. JAMON: Yeah. And one of the things that is very apparent, is that there's a lot more resources available now online for learning. You don't have to go to college to get the education because it's often on YouTube, or you can look through GitHub. There's all these resources, there's online courses. These are things that are very valuable, and they're self-driven. When I first started wanting to learn Objective-C and building iOS apps, I bought an iPad 2 and I went to iTunes U and started watching the Stanford courses on there, and following along with those. So I was able to basically watch Stanford lectures for free, and follow along, and do what they were doing. That was tremendously valuable to me. And all of those resources are very interesting. What's very interesting also is that very few people actually take advantage of this. Everybody with an internet connection essentially has access to these, to the same thing I did. TODD: Which is pretty much everyone in the United States at least. JAMON: Right. And yet, it's a very tiny fracture of a percent that actually take advantage of that. TODD: Well, I would like to, for those of you who have this question and don't have a lot of opportunity for various reasons to go to university, I would give you my kind of recommendation. I forget who said this, I'm not going to attribute it to anyone because I don't remember who it was, but if you want to be a writer, write. If you want to be a poet, write poetry. When you've written a million words, you're a writer. When you've written 100,000 words, you're a writer. You have to write. You'd be amazed how many people want to do something and actually don't do it. In our industry, it's very possible to be a very successful software engineer by just doing it. But even, we mentioned mechanical engineering which does have some legal constraints for sure. But I don't know if anyone's ever seen the movie October Sky. It was in the late '90s. It was about a NASA engineer called Homer Hicksam (Homer Hickam) I think. He was a son of a coal miner and he loved rocket engineering. And he just did it, and he did it, and he did it, and he did it, and eventually without ever having an education, he did it for NASA, and he was a very famous and successful engineer at NASA. So, I don't recommend that route for such things, but it is possible. And I don't care who you are, or what profession you're in, if you just spend a crap load of time doing it, you're going to rise above everyone else. Another great story I have, I read this book. It was about this guy who was really into etymology. Entomology, not etymology which is the study of the origins of words. Entomology, which is the study of insects. He came from a very poor family, and he was in Alabama, and he got into the University of Alabama for biology. I believe he got a scholarship because he couldn't afford it, but the day one he showed up, he went to the head of the biology, the college or probably ... I don't know what it was, but wherever the college of biology is. Ken will correct me. This shows my education here. Anyways, he went up to the head and he said, "For the last two years I've been cataloging the ants of Alabama." And no one had ever done this. So on day one he was put in charge of something very important at the university because of this, simply because he just did it. He didn't ask permission. He just did it. So if you want to become a developer, regardless if you have the opportunity to go to school or not, you just have to start developing. Get into open source, publish stuff, start creating your portfolio and just do it. I'm not going to recommend this at all, but if you dropped out of high school at 16 and started programming and put a lot of work into it, by the time you're 18, 19, you're going to have a high paying job. That's a fact. Don't do that, kids, but- JAMON: Yeah. If Cedric's listening to this, stay in school. TODD: But you totally could do this, but it does require a lot of ... a lot of times people go to the university and those kind of paths because they don't have the kind of internal- KEN: And by the way, if you're that person, you probably already know. TODD: I don't necessarily think so, because- KEN: I mean, if it's flowing out of you so much that you just can't stop doing it basically, that's usually the kind of person who makes it that way. TODD: I agree, but I think- JAMON: Well, that was me at that age for sure. TODD: I think a lot of those people don't know that it's possible, because they don't have an example of it being possible. JAMON: That's exactly right, and that was actually me at that age. At 16 I was coding every day. Every day I would go home and that's what I would do. I mean, I'd do homework on the bus. I didn't do it at home. I coded at home. But I had no role models that were programmers. Well, I had one but he worked in San Francisco and he had been to college, and I thought that was the path. So I didn't really have that sense. And I was doing some pretty complex games and stuff, and figuring things out on my own because I didn't have internet at that time. TODD: Yeah. Well, back in my day I had a book budget, because the only way to learn was from books. There was nothing online, because there wasn't online. I had a book budget where hopefully I could buy a book every couple of months, add to my collection. But anyways, if you get nothing else and you're aspiring to be a developer, I give you permission just to do it. JAMON: Another option is code bootcamps. We actually have at least one, maybe a few others that have been to bootcamps here at Infinite Red, and we found them to be quite valuable for getting people up to speed on frameworks, on languages, on sort of the technical skills, and just getting the familiarization and understanding that they can learn these things. Often it doesn't teach them everything, but it gets them the confidence that they need to move forward with it. I think bootcamps are definitely an option, and there's many good ones. We've worked with Epicodus here in Portland, and there's others as well. KEN: They're especially helpful I think for people who have some kind of technical or quantitative background but just need to learn to code. JAMON: Right. KEN: Per se. Yeah. JAMON: Yeah. It's a good way if you're switching to a second career, or something like that. Another one that I'm actually a really big fan of is Austen Allred's Lambda University. Now, this one's got a really unique model. It's a little more intense than a bootcamp I think. It's a fairly solid higher education option. They have a lot of success stories coming from it. But one of the really unique things that Austen's doing there is they do not charge tuition upfront. Essentially they will take a percentage of your income if you make above, I think it's $60,000 or something a year. Once you get a job that's above $60,000 a year, they'll take 17% of it for up to two years, and there's a cap. Like, $30,000 or something. TODD: That's amazing. I love that. JAMON: Yeah. And if you never get a job in that range, then you never pay it back. The debt is forgiven. TODD: That's a really cool idea. I love that. JAMON: Yeah. Yeah. It really is great. And apparently the financial model's been working for his university. It's an online one so it's very accessible and they're actually finding that they have a much more diverse student body because of the fact that someone who doesn't have a lot of means, doesn't have a lot of support, they can go to school online, they don't have to pay anything upfront. They're even good about trying to support them financially during the time that they're in the university. It's a really great model. I'm a big fan. Lambda School or Lambda University I think it's called. TODD: We'll put that in the show notes. JAMON: Yeah. And Austen's doing a good job with that. He also, if you follow him on Twitter, he's got some really great thoughts on education. I like what he tweets about. TODD: Yeah. I guess in summary there's many ways to get there. If you are a maker, like I always was ... even when I was a kid I constantly made things, I think my path might be an interesting idea. If you have the means to go to university, by all means do it for sure. If it's going to be a huge financial burden, I would definitely give it some serious thought before incurring that burden. CHRIS: I'm curious how you approach education "Once you make it." What does it look like on a daily basis to learn new things, be challenged by new things, or even challenge the people that you work with as well? JAMON: All you need to do is listen to this podcast religiously. TODD: It sounds ridiculous but it's absolutely true. Continuing education. That's a good one. Truthfully, for a software engineer, if you can't teach yourself every day, you're going to have trouble because whatever you knew last year ... I've been doing this for 22 years and I think that number changes every time I say it. I started in '96 so whatever that comes up to. JAMON: We're software engineers. We're not very good at math. TODD: Yes. That's a fact. But you have to learn new stuff. The stuff you worked on two years ago is not what you're working on today. It's constantly learning new stuff. Now, you learn certain patterns and certain ideas that you use over and over again, and you start as you get a lot of experience you start realizing how we're kind of just redoing the same thing over and over for the last 40 years. JAMON: Yeah. Ken, didn't you do an exercise where you learned a whole bunch of languages, and you wrote the same program several times? KEN: Yeah. It was fun. I had fun with it, and then it literally burnt me out of programming for a long time. JAMON: How many did you do? KEN: I got through ... I don't know. 20 or 30. JAMON: Wow. Yeah, so that's what Todd's talking about, is this sort of recurring theme that you see over and over. KEN: Yeah. And after a while it was just like, it was the same approach over, and over, and over, and over. JAMON: It became a lot easier to learn your 20th and 21st and 22nd. Yeah. KEN: Yeah. I always recommend people learn three or four languages, just for their own edification. A lisp, a low level of imperative language, C, C++, even Java, a dynamic language like Ruby or Python. JAMON: And then something like Haskell or Elm or something. KEN: Or actually something like Prolog or Erlang is actually probably more interesting than ... Haskell's great, but more interesting than that because it really makes you think about it in a different way. If you learn those, you can learn anything at that point. JAMON: I think one of the things that really helps me is I have this insatiable curiosity about concepts and computer science. I love reading about it, I'm on Twitter a lot and that's a good place to source new information. You can watch videos. Other people learn in different ways. I know one of our engineers will troll through GitHub. He'll actually jump into a package.json file which we- TODD: I don't know if, "Troll" is the right word, but yeah. JAMON: Well, trolling as in fishing. And he'll look at the dependencies of a particular well known thing, and look at what they use, and then go look at those and see how people code. It's a very cool way to learn. Other people, they'll learn by pairing with other programmers, they'll learn obviously by experience. Some people read books. We have one of our- TODD: Watch videos. JAMON: Yes, watching videos. One of our developers decided to learn ... this is Darin Wilson. He decided to learn Ecto, which is the database layer for Elixir. He decided to learn that by writing a book about it. And apparently that's been quite educational for him. He's learned a ton in teaching. TODD: Yeah. Don't do that, kids. It's a lot of work. That's kind of a lot about software engineering and that kind of stuff, but we're also, on the other side ... and we probably lost all the entrepreneurs by now, so I guess we should do this first. But on the other side is education when it comes to being an entrepreneur, running your own small business, running a larger business, that kind of stuff. JAMON: I learned first I would say by watching my dad. He was a small business owner, so I learned some basics there. I did know quite a few small business owners, and I did talk to them. I would go out to coffee with them or whatever, and just ask them questions. But it was very much a learn as I go type of a situation, learn as I had to. How do you do payroll? I had no idea. I hired a bookkeeper who taught me how to do payroll and did most of it, which was nice. How do you market? I had no idea. That was a whole thing that I had to learn. How do you do sales? I mean, I just plopped myself in front of people and tried to do the best I could, and tried to learn from it. That's probably not the way I would recommend going though. TODD: We did engineer our sales process by the way. JAMON: Once we merged companies, then Todd and I started doing sales together, and we had a much more engineery approach to it. It was good. Actually have a feedback loop, and we would try to build our experience over time. I have read some business books, I've watched some business videos, but for whatever reason software engineering, education has always been more ... I guess got more traction with education on that side. With business stuff that always seems so abstract and not directly applicable. KEN: I'm definitely at a point where I'm feeling like I could use some formal education honestly. The MBA is not what it used to be in terms of guaranteed high paying work. Even elite MBAs are not what they used to be in that regard. But I wouldn't downplay the value of the network building that they bring. But what they can't teach you, what no school could teach you, is what it's like to stare at your bank account and wonder if you're going to make payroll this month and how you handle that. I mean, it might mean that you know a good banker who can help you, but it doesn't teach you what that feels like. It can teach you about negotiation, but it doesn't teach you how to actually sit at a table with somebody who's got a lot more money and power than you. There's a reason that even regular business schools prefer that you go out and work some place for a little while before you go there. And I think that the EMBA route, if you're going for formal education, is probably a pretty good one, because then you have really embedded yourself. You have a very felt experience of what these things are like, so when you go to that negotiation class, or that finance class, or whatever, you get it. It's going to land someplace for you emotionally, that it wouldn't for a kid out of school. JAMON: What's an EMBA? KEN: Executive MBA, meaning a lot of the business schools will offer these programs frequently, nights or weekends, even at a high level, so it's right where you as a person who already runs a business can go and fill in your skillset. TODD: Interesting. KEN: And hobnob with other people like you. Yeah. And they're not cheap. TODD: Yeah, that makes sense especially if they're geared towards executives. My path was way too long. So, if you want to do it fast don't take my path, but this is my third company and I feel like I finally became a business person on my third company. That's a long time, and that wasn't three companies in three years. That was three companies in 15 years. I definitely wouldn't go my route. I think one of the things ... I mean, there's different aspects of business, right? Ken alluded to some of them. Financing, super important. If you're not making money, if you're not negotiating good deals with your vendors, or employees or whatever, if you're not keeping it cashflow where you can pay payroll, you're sunk, so that's very important. The other thing is, your management and leadership skills. As you grow, you're going to have a team, so that's very important. That's not something you super easily learned from a book. I think even things like accounting theory ... Ken, I don't know if you want me to share this story. Well, I'll just say it and we can cut it if you don't want it. This is kind of a funny story. When Ken and I first started this business, this was my third, but this was Ken's first business. And we were going over our accounting and he was telling me all about accounting theory, and he knew it very well, but I don't remember what it was, but it was something like I said, "We should get our P&L," and you had no idea what that was. It's a profit and loss report. KEN: I don't think that that was what it was. I don't think that's what it was. I don't remember what it was, because I knew what a P&L is. TODD: Maybe it was AR, account receivable? It was something very basic. KEN: Well, we had a long running argument about cash verus accrual accounting as I recall. TODD: Right. So regardless of what it was, and I don't mean to insult Ken whatsoever, but that's actually not uncommon. My wife's an accountant and she was trained at university for that and then she worked as a corporate accountant for a long time and worked her way up to a fairly high level. The day-to-day, just like in programming, you learn the concepts but once you hit the real world, the real world's so much different than anything. And I think that's true with a lot of ... KEN: I'll go into that. I was like, "I think we should do accrual accounting," and Todd's like, "I don't think so." I'm like, "Well, no. I really want to be able to ..." the benefit of accrual accounting is that you can see profit versus cashflow and it sort of gives you more information, but it's way more work, way more work. And if you haven't done it, you don't know that, so we are still a cash accounting. JAMON: Yes. TODD: Is it more work, Ken? KEN: What, accrual? TODD: Yeah. KEN: Much. TODD: Is it way more work? KEN: Much, much, much more work. Yeah. And that's something I don't really like very much. JAMON: One of the things I did well when I started my business was I forced myself to do a monthly budget. And I was doing this for my personal life too, so I just used the same skills I had there to do a budget for the business, which was much easier because I wasn't buying diapers there generally. There wasn't quite as many transactions- TODD: There's a joke in there somewhere. JAMON: Yes. There weren't as many transactions and stuff. But it was actually really great because I was able to keep a very close eye on where we were in a cash basis obviously, and then I did have accounts receivable system that I could look at to see what kind of money would be coming and do some forecasting and stuff. We've carried that forward to some extent here at Infinite Red doing the budgeting. We got away from it for a little while, but we're going to be going back and do it because it has been very helpful, even though you in some way feel like you're doing kind of double entry. TODD: Yeah. I think, gosh, business education and experience, you really have to have both. You have to study in some form, and you have to have experience. It's really challenging to be honest, compared to something more straightforward like becoming a designer or an engineer, just because it's very nebulous and very human oriented for sure. JAMON: And there's so many ways to do a business right, and there's many, many, many more ways to do it wrong. If you just follow a formula, that's not necessarily going to work. There's a lot of variables in business. TODD: And people tend to do things the way that they're comfortable with, or the way they're familiar with. It's kind of funny. My wife, she's actually a small business person now, but she's an accountant by trade as I mentioned. In accounting, they use spreadsheets to a ridiculous amount. And when I say ridiculous amount I mean they're super familiar with spreadsheets, very advanced spreadsheets, so if there is a task, they throw a spreadsheet at it. Now, as a programmer, my first thought was database. So, my first company, I did my accounting like a database, which probably wasn't great but it's what I understood. And that's what people do, they apply. So my wife Heather and I, sometimes I've went there and said, "That's cool, but you know, if we use a database this will be much easier." And I set her up with a great product called Airtable, and she switched from a spreadsheet for that particular thing to the database, and she loves it. And then looking at some of her spreadsheets, for example, as a programmer, if I needed a particular report for finances, I would assume I'd make a report and I would use a system to make a report and stuff. But for her it's super common to extract data from multiple sources, stick it into a pre-made spreadsheet and have the spreadsheet be the report. This is what accountants do all day. It seems more manual, but it's actually faster and more convenient. So as a person who's not educated, maybe not educated in starting a small business, or taking a long route like we do, you'll find that you're doing things that you know how to do. It may not be right, but you kind of get them done. And it's good to look, at some point, when you have time, to look how the professionals do it, so you can do it more efficiently. KEN: Well, and I want to piggyback on that, which is that one of the harder things that we've learned is to do some things manually, that there's real value in doing things manually and personally, and not trying to automate it. Like Todd says, when we think we need a report, the first we're going to go like, "Hm. We should write a report so we don't have to do it ourselves over and over again." Wrong. Wrong, unless you're- JAMON: We need the education- KEN: Unless you're Ford, unless you're a massive company that has already a very dialed in process, automating as a small company is sometimes counterproductive. Not only does it take a long time, a big time upfront, but then you are locked in and can't change it. You can, but now all changes are expensive. And two, there's real value to human eyes going and looking at the stuff and compiling it. And that was very hard for me to learn because, like a lot of people, I got into computers because I'm lazy, and I wanted the computer to do all the work for me. But there's no substitute for human eyes on the problem, in many cases. TODD: It's funny, because we're all engineers and designers, the way we do reports at work is we have an artificial intelligence chat bot in Slack that produces the reports for us. That's such an us way of doing things, it's hilarious. JAMON: If it's okay, before we wrap up here, I'm going to bring this back to universities for a second. I think this is actually a really important thing to get across to people who are considering that path. If your state offers ... here in Washington State it's called Running Start, but essentially the ability to go into a small community college that's nearby your high school, and get your first two years done for free. The K-12 system actually pays for your college, for the first two years. That's really helpful, and there's really no reason not to do that. That's a great way to get started. Secondly, if you are going to go to a university, unless it's something like Harvard, or maybe Stanford, you should really avoid private universities, especially for-profit universities. Those are really terrible. You really don't want to go that direction. KEN: Well, I want to draw a very clear distinction between private and for-profit. JAMON: Yes, of course. KEN: There's a lot of very good private schools. If you can afford them, go for it. A lot of them are really great, great education. for-profit schools completely different. JAMON: Todd and Ken, I'm not sure if you know this, but one of the things that ... well, you do know this. One of the things that for-profit universities do is they prey on disadvantaged students and stuff. They'll go and sign them up. And they actually did that at my school and I was actually signed up and accepted to one of these universities, which would have been an incredibly expensive education. I'm not sure what the quality would have been, but very, very expensive. And I backed out, but for a while I was thinking this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to go to this university for a computer science degree. And you just need to stay clear of them. It's not worth it. They're often predatory, they're just bad. TODD: Not to be confused. One thing I want to do mention is ... sorry to interject, Jamon. The Code Academies are for-profit also, but those- JAMON: Yeah. That's much different though. TODD: That's different. KEN: Yeah. We're not going to mention any of the names of the for-profit universities, because we don't want to get sued, but ... JAMON: They're bad, yes. KEN: They're bad. JAMON: But there're a lot of really great state universities they can go to. A really great way to go is to do ... your Running Start type program for two years and then go for the next two years at a state university and you can get a degree. And it's honestly relatively inexpensive. CHRIS: One of the things that I would love to add, regardless of what you do, whether you're an engineer, or a designer, or a founder of a company, one of the best ways to learn is actually to teach what you know to other people. TODD: Good point. CHRIS: So that when you don't understand something, you're going to dive in to learn it so that you can explain it to someone else, and that's where oftentimes I found that theory and practical knowledge combine and multiply. TODD: I think that's fantastic. I would totally agree. I've taught a handful of programmers throughout my career, from nothing into professionals, and nothing teaches you like teaching. It was a big boon. As for business education, we talked about that as a combination of education, however you get that, and experience. But if you want to be an entrepreneur, there is absolutely no excuse. Today is Tuesday when we're recording this. You can go down right no, go to Costco if you don't have a Costco card go to Walmart, buy bottled waters. They're really cheap. You're going to get 24 pack, whatever, for whatever it is. So basically you're paying pennies for each bottle. Go down to the beach, or wherever in your local town where people hang out, and sit there and sell bottled waters for about 30 minutes. KEN: Until someone calls the police on you for not doing it with a permit. TODD: Correct. That's why the time thing. But you can sell. When someone's out running, or they're with their kids at the park, you can sell one of those bottled waters for $2. You bought it for 15 cents, you sold it for $2. Congratulations. You are now a business person. And it just goes up for there, and the truth is, a lot of people who want to start a business, they really want to want to start a business, they don't actually want to start a business. So I always recommend to people, do the bottled water test. If that's very unpalatable to you, you're probably not ready. Doesn't mean you won't be ready, but you're probably not ready to start that small business yet. Little advice from your uncle Todd. JAMON: I don't think I would ever go to the beach and sell bottled water unless I had to. KEN: I don't think I would do that either. TODD: People like really successful in sales people and stuff like say Mark Cuban, he did this kind of stuff. But from a young age he was a business man and his job was to find things that he'd get for X and sell for a multiple of X. And he would do anything. He would go door to door. KEN: If you're already a programmer or designer, go get yourself an LLC and put your shingle out as a one person consulting firm. It's not the same quite as business, but it gives you a little bit of a flavor for it. It takes you down that road a little bit. That was certainly what did it for me. TODD: Don't work for free. KEN: Yeah. Don't work for free. TODD: Whatever you do, don't work for free. Everyone will try to get you to work for free. Don't do it. No free bottles of water. KEN: That's a whole another conversation. TODD: Except for the cop who's arresting you for permits. KEN: Yeah. TODD: Give him a few- KEN: What if I just slipped you one of these bad boys, officer? TODD: This fine, fine water could be yours. KEN: On that note, thanks for listening everybody. JAMON: See you next time. TODD: Yes, thank you. This was Todd, and this is Jamon. No, that's not Jamon. This is Jamon- JAMON: Thank you. This ... KEN: I had a great stopping point, and Todd just had to keep talking. You just had to keep talking. TODD: Ken, I'm not the kind of person who has to have the last word. KEN: Yes, you are. TODD: I'm really not. That's funny. I'm going to stop recording.

In this episode of Building Infinite Red, Jamon, Ken, and Todd touch on the fears, anxieties, and struggles of running a business. They share stories and thoughts on starting a business, managing stress, how success and failure impact focus, the difference between venture capital and other sources of funding, fear of missing out, and the importance of knowing what you stand for. Show Links & Resources YNAB: Personal budgeting software Four Yorkshiremen by Monty Python Episode Transcript TODD WERTH: So I thought a good topic today, one of the reasons because I'm personally interested actually, hear what Jamon has to say and Ken has to say, and of course I'm sure they're interested to hear what I have to say. But the topic is when you start a new business or you're an entrepreneur doing multiple businesses, or anything of that particular area. What are some of the biggest fears, anxieties, apprehensions, that you might have you know before the process, during the process, whenever? I find this very fascinating, because I imagine a lot of people, well maybe some people who are listening are experiencing these right now and A) it'd be great to hear someone else express the same thing so they know that they're not alone in this, and B) it's kind of interesting to think about yourself. It kind of, it's not something you typically sit down and think about, so if you two don't mind, that'd be a really interesting subject for today. KEN MILLER: Sounds good. JAMON HOLMGREN: Yeah. Well I think back to when I started by business. It was 2005, and I was working for a home builder at the time, so I had a, you know, decent job. It was an office job. I was doing I think cad design and marketing for this builder. Not really doing programming. But I decided that one of the things that ... well I had, prior to this time, I had thought, you know I'd be really nice to own my own business at some point. It'd be something that I would aspire to. And I think that part of that was my dad owning his own business and knowing a lot of entrepreneurs kind of played into that. I thought it would be an interesting thing. I've always been a little bit independent. Want to kind of set my own course. So I started thinking about doing this and talking with my wife, and at the time I had a six month old baby. That was my first kid, my son, who is now 13 years old. Around actually this time of year is when I decided that I was going to do this. What helped was an opportunity that came up. So the apprehension of how do I get my first customer was sort of already taken care of. My uncle had a bunch of work that he needed done, and he asked me if I wanted to do it kind of on the side, or as a business, and that gave me the confidence to pull the trigger and say, let's so this. Because I had a built-in customer right away. But I do remember the first month sending my bill over to him, and it was only eleven hundred dollars, and that was all I had earned that whole month was eleven hundred dollars. And that was a wake up call to me that, hey I can't just expect the money to come in, and that was definitely ... I sat up and noticed. TODD: Yeah, that's really interesting. So when you started ClearSight, that was your first company, correct? At that time? JAMON: That's right. Yeah, ClearSight. There were other points along the way where I was sort of I got kind of gut-punched. Many times along the way. One was when ... my first business was doing websites, but it was also doing CAD designs, so I had essentially two business, and the CAD design part of it, you know designing homes, designing remodels, those sort of things eventually dried up, because remember that was during 2008, 2009 the housing recession kind of came along and that impacted the designers first, because we were the first ones in the process. People stopped taking money, equity out of their homes to do remodels. They just stopped doing it. So basically the whole market dried up. I remember my uncle told me, "I don't have any work to send you anymore." And I had a few accounts myself, but they were pretty slow too. And I kind of sat at home for a few days and felt sorry for myself. But in typical Jamon fashion, I was like, well I guess it's time to go do this myself, so I went out and literally started knocking on doors at offices and stuff and handing out my business card. Wasn't too successful at that, but it was at least doing something, and then things turned around eventually. TODD: Since you had a new baby at home, and obviously you're married, and you're trying to support them. JAMON: Right. TODD: Did that add any worry to you at that time? JAMON: Yeah, for sure. It certainly did, because any worry that my wife felt was reflected back on me because I feel very a sense of responsibility that I need to be making sure that we're not losing our house. Making sure that we can keep food on the table, things like that. So that was a lot to process. My health definitely suffered because of it and a few other things, but there was a lot of stress involved with that. I think that if I were to go back now, knowing what I know now, I could very much have probably pulled out of it much faster. I could have found a better path, but you live and learn. TODD: I'm sure there's more to tell about that story, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts Ken. KEN: For me the biggest worry was always money. Right? I mean, since I came out here to Silicon Valley, I had the dream. I had the Silicon Valley dream for sure. I wanted to start my own company. And to a certain degree, the Silicon Valley dream as sold is not sold accurately. Right? It's sold as this sort of fantasy. And the truth of the matter is you have to have more resources than is reputed in order to do the Silicon Valley way effectively. You need to know VCs or people who know them. It helps to have affluent parents who can bankroll you not making any money for years and years and years. I'm luckier than most on all of those accounts, and even I found that very intimidating, challenging. And especially living in the Bay Area, once you have established a life in the Bay Area, the idea of not taking a salary for a couple of years is utterly terrifying if you don't have a big pile of money. In fact, I wasn't really able to do this until I had a little bit of a windfall from the Yammer acquisition to lean on. Basically just enough to let me barely scrape by for a year for which I'm still very grateful 'cause I probably wouldn't be here today if I hadn't had that. And there were some scary fricking moments. There've definitely been a few extremely close calls financially. So I don't ... that fear I think was justified and surmountable. Let me put it that way. Right? You can definitely figure that one out, but I'm not gonna lie. It can be super scary sometimes. For me, the biggest mental shift that got me where I am now is that I had always had in my head this sort of venture capital model, because that's what I knew. Right? Because that's the kind of company I'd worked for. I saw how that process basically worked. But it always felt wrong to me. Right? Like, I was always like, what's so wrong with profit? What's so wrong with actually making a business that can support itself fairly early on? And I think it was the Paul Graham post that was like, the difference between a start up and a small business. And a start up is specifically optimized for hundred S growth or nothing. JAMON: Right. KEN: And that's what venture capitalists want for the most part. Right? No venture capitalist wants you to be one of the nine or ninety-nine that don't make it. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: Nevertheless, the model is set up that way. The model is set up so that only one in ten or less have to make it. And so once I realized, oh no all along I wanted to make the lifestyle business, basically, the small business. TODD: I just wanted to point out that especially in Silicon Valley the term lifestyle business is a semi-derogatory term. KEN: Pejorative, yeah. TODD: Yeah to refer to a normal, actual business. KEN: Exactly. TODD: And I always found that amusing when they said lifestyle business it was insulting you, because you make a profit. I always thought that was funny. KEN: Yeah, right. It's sort of like the Silicon Valley model is for people who would rather be a billionaire or nothing. Right? It's kinda like a shot at a billionaire is worth way more to them then a pretty good path to a millionaire. Once I realized that that was the exact opposite of me, I was much happier and I could actually work towards something that mattered. Right? And not even the millionaire part, right? It's like, if that happens, that would be awesome, but it's more creating the environment that I wished that I'd had. JAMON: When it comes to fears and those types of feelings, do you ever feel maybe that you are missing out on those wild rides? KEN: Do I have FOMO for the- JAMON: Yeah, a little bit of FOMO. KEN: Sometimes. JAMON: FOMO being, of course, fear of missing out. KEN: Yeah, living here especially. I think that's inevitable. JAMON: Right. Because we're not set up for just rocket growth at Infinite Red. KEN: I've been at enough companies that ended up making everybody thousandaires or worse. Right? Or negative thousandaires in at least one case. I had a friend, he seemed like he was living the dream. This was way back when in the first boom. Right? He seemed like he'd lived the dream. Right? He was just an engineer at a start up and he was suddenly a millionaire overnight. And then within six month, he was a negative six hundred thousandaire with a gigantic tax bill. JAMON: Oof. KEN: The whole model has kind of lured a bunch of people into the stock option thing. This is what I'm talking about specifically. I think there is absolutely a place for the venture capital model, but the stock option compensation model that a lot of people have done, is kind of a raw deal in a lot of ways, but that'd be a whole other topic, so- JAMON: Yes TODD: Just real quick, I own tons of stock and stock options that are worth absolutely zero- KEN: Yes. TODD: But, if I ever run out of toilet paper, I am set. JAMON: So Todd, you started a business well before Ken or I, and you know I actually I don't know if I've ever heard the story of your very first business and how you went from being a software engineer at a company to owning your own business, and I'd like to hear about that from the perspective of the topic of this episode which is about fears, and uncertainty and things like that. TODD: Yeah. Yeah. That's great question, so I've owned three businesses. This hopefully is my last one here at Infinite Red. My first one was in 1999. We started, it was three of us, it was also a consulting company like Infinite Red which lasted for nine years. It was a little bit different. Real quick, we did mainly enterprise, not start ups, larger companies, that kind of stuff. And our model was kind of to be subcontractors. So we had a lot of relationships with other consulting companies. One of the things we did, is we did really hard things well. So all the other consulting companies, like especially at that time it's gonna sound funny, but you'd have companies coming to us saying, "Look, we're doing most of the project, but they want something on the web, and we have no idea how to do that." And we did. And we knew Visual C++ and we knew all sorts of things. And so we specialize. We were higher priced because of that, and we'd come in and do the fun parts, in our opinion, which was really great. This is circa 1999. That one wasn't ... there wasn't too much anxiety from it. It was a small company, so later I'll talk about most of my anxiety at Infinite Red come from my worry of the 25 families I'm responsible for. JAMON: Right. TODD: It's not so much myself, because I do not have affluent parents. Well, most of my relatives are dead now, but I never really worried about money. I mean worst case scenario, I can be a developer. I'm pretty darn good developer, and I can make good money at that. And I moved out of the Bay Area, so for me my lifestyle is much cheaper than it used to be. So I don't worry about that so much, but I do worry about everyone's families who work at Infinite Red. My first company, we didn't have that. It was all just high level people. There was three to six of us, depending on the time. And we kind of just slipped into it. We had our first few big customers before we even started. So that wasn't really stressful at all. The second company, which came after my first company, I went back and worked for companies, for other start ups as an employee, and that's how I met Ken. Ken was my boss. And I was doing that mainly just 'cause after nine years running your company, I was just kind of tired, and I wanted to be an employee for a while. And I did that for about three, three and half years. And Ken, sorry boss, it was super relaxing, easy. You work like seven and a half hours a day or whatever. KEN: This has been noted on your permanent file. TODD: You know, regular jobs often are pretty lax compared to start ups. As an aside, I was in a pizza parlor once, and I saw a sign behind the wall. It was obviously the pizza parlor was owned by a person, it wasn't a chain, and the sign said, the only thing more overrated then running your own business is pregnancy. Which is true, if you do it for low hours and high pay, you really should rethink that, but there are lots of great reasons to do it. Any who, my second company was venture capital backed company which means we didn't use our own money. It was intentionally designed to do the hockey stick which means go from zero to very high very fast, and we had investors. And we had to pitch to venture capitalists and angel investors, and we had all the kind of normal Silicon Valley stuff. And that lasted for about a year and a half, and I cherish that experience, because it taught me a lot about that process from the inside. It was completely a failure which is fine. The fears in that, once again, were not personal, because as I did right after that, I went and got a job with Ken. JAMON: Right. TODD: And I made plenty of personal money. And because we weren't investing our money, the VCs were, there really wasn't a lot of anxiety there. I would say the main anxiety there was performance. Meaning it's kind of depressing when you're failing, and sometimes you have a great success. We did one month, especially. And we were shooting to the moon for a whole month, and it was super exciting. So it was just kind of a roller coaster of anxiety for that kind of business. Yeah, Jamon? JAMON: I think it's really interesting to hear you and Ken talk about the idea of, well I can just go get a job as a developer. Because for the longest time, I didn't feel that I had that option. Whether that was reality or not, I don't know. I was basically, I kind of thought of myself as just building websites. I just built websites for people, and I didn't really think of myself as a software engineer. I just happen to be someone that happened to built websites. TODD: Knowing you Jamon, and the quality of engineer you are, you are completely wrong. You could have totally got a job, but I get why- JAMON: Yeah. TODD: -from your perspective you felt that way. KEN: Yeah, well and it's a matter of ... it highlights how important just knowing the scene is. JAMON: Right. Yeah, totally. KEN: If you know the scene, yeah if you're an engineer, even like an old rusty engineer, like we're going to be before too long. TODD: Too late, Ken. KEN: Right. JAMON: Too soon and too late. KEN: Even if you're an old rusty engineer, you can figure it out. Right? JAMON: Right, yeah. KEN: The demand is so overwhelming and so consistent and so pervasive that- JAMON: Yeah. KEN: -if you know sort of the ins and outs- TODD: Even you Jamon could get a job is what you're saying. JAMON: Even I could get a job. KEN: No, if you're half-way competent, and he's more than half-way competent, about 60 percent. JAMON: I appreciate it. KEN: No, it's- JAMON: 60 percent. Yeah. No, and to hear that now. It's something that is obviously more of an option now that I don't need it, but at the time it didn't feel like an option, and so especially when I started getting employees in 2009. And most of them were young. They didn't have much in the way of family, but they would obviously still have ... they needed jobs, and I felt that. I felt that in every part of me that if the business wasn't doing well, that I was failing them. And that actually drove me for a long time. I think if I'd had the option to go work for someone, or felt I had the option to go work for someone, I may have actually quit at some point. But I didn't. I kept the course there. KEN: I will say, that I'm glad that I did not know everything that I should be afraid of going into it. 'Cause there is plenty that you should be afraid of, and if I'd known all that stuff going in, I probably wouldn't have done it, and I'm glad that I did it. And if I had to redo it now, I would do it again. JAMON: Right. KEN: And that's an important distinction is that it's not that I would do it again, it's that only hearing the bad stuff at that point, would have been a disaster. TODD: Ignorance and hubris are the two best tools of the entrepreneur. JAMON: I feel like it's both more stressful and more scary than you think, but also you're more resourceful and more able to deal with it then you think. KEN: Yes. TODD: Hundred percent. I would say, talking to other people who are new to it, and I certainly had to learn this, the biggest problem is the buck stops here. Meaning in every other situation where you worked, you could always throw a problem up the ladder. JAMON: Yes. TODD: And when you're a small business person, you don't know accounting? Doesn't matter. Do it. JAMON: Someone's gotta do the accounting. TODD: Right, like there's literally no excuse. There's none, and you don't have that money just to pay for people to do it. KEN: I guarantee the IRS does not grade on a curve. TODD: No, they don't care about your excuses. KEN: Yeah. TODD: So Jamon, Ken, and I come from very different places. So Ken obviously went to Harvard. He's impressive on paper. I actually did not. I didn't finish college. I started making way too much money as a programmer to be honest. But when I first started out in 1996 as a professional programmer, you know I wasn't making tons of money, but it was plenty for me, because where I'm from, it's a lot of money. And at that time, I'd probably be more like Jamon meaning I didn't see myself as really deserving that kind of stuff, but this was in San Francisco in 1996. So I saw the first boom, and then I saw the crash, and then I saw the second boom. And after a while, you start to learn, although I don't have Ken's personal background. I do have Ken's professional background. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Yep. TODD: And so, one of the things I've noticed when talking to Jamon, because he's in Vancouver, Washington, and not around that stuff as much, is he feels a little bit like an imposter. He's totally not. And I bet even now in his mind he imagines that those people working at Google somehow have this huge, amazing, genius to them, and Ken's probably in the middle. He probably thinks some of them do. I personally have yet to meet one of these fabled geniuses. So the more you get involved with that, the more you realize they're just humans, and you're just as good as they are. KEN: That is true. JAMON: I think that's been something that I've become more and more aware of over the past several years. And it's funny because I don't usually think of myself as having imposter syndrome. I'm actually quite a confident guy, but in that regard I definitely did not really realize ... it felt like they were a different breed. They were a different type of person. And I always felt like I could probably learn anything, but there was still this degree of separation. But, anyway, coming back to the topic at hand, I think that sort of uncertainty and fear can be a motivating factor. But one of the things, so one of the things I'd like to talk about, is there are healthy ways and unhealthy ways to handle that stress, and I've done them all. Believe me. TODD: Like cocaine? JAMON: Maybe. TODD: Jamon's mother, he's totally joking. He's never done cocaine. JAMON: Yes, thank you Todd. And my mom does listen to this, so thanks Todd. TODD: He really has not, trust me. JAMON: You wouldn't want to see me on cocaine. KEN: Oh god. Yeah, that is the wrong drug for you my friend. JAMON: Yes. KEN: Oof. JAMON: But you don't want to transfer stress to clients. You don't want to transfer stress to employees. You don't want to transfer it to your significant other. To your family. And unfortunately, I've done all of those things, because I'm human and that's what happens. You get a lot of stress, and then you feel like you need to let off steam. One of the things that I actually really appreciated about this partnership is that we're able to let off steam with each other. And in a way, that is healthy. That isn't transferring to someone else who has nothing to do with it or has no power. Where I have two partners who are actually in the same spot, and they can help. It's been really, really helpful. So that is really important. I think how you transfer stress. Yeah, Todd? TODD: I agree. I don't kick the dog. I kick Ken. Which is better. The dog appreciates it at least. JAMON: You don't even have a dog, Todd. TODD: I don't have a dog, and I've never kick a dog by the way. I'd kick humans all day long, but never a dog. JAMON: This is true. TODD: Just to be clear. JAMON: Yes, Todd is the one who canceled a meeting because he had to bring a bird to the hospital that had hit his door, actually one time. TODD: It's true. It is true, and that bird is flapping happily today. KEN: As far as you know. TODD: I hope. Back to my story, because it's all about me. Anxiety at Infinite Red really does come around to team members mostly, and you two Ken and Jamon because I don't want to let you down, and I certainly don't want someone's family not to be able to have a Christmas because of something stupid I did, or because I was acting emotionally when I should have been acting rationally. That kind of stuff. JAMON: This year, me not having Christmas had nothing to do with you Todd, so I can let you know that. TODD: Jamon's house was burglarized and burnt down. Not burnt down, but set afire on Christmas Eve. KEN: Torched. TODD: So, if you're feeling good about humanity up to this point, now you can feel bad about it. So, there you go, but they're back in their house. KEN: You're welcome. TODD: Everything's good. JAMON: Yes. TODD: You're back in your house. Everything's good, and he has a wonderful family, and all is well. JAMON: Yeah, it's really nice to be back. Anyway, I cut you off. TODD: But so that's a lot of my anxieties about it. At my age, I'm 46, and I've done this a long time. I don't stress as often. Like I used to get very stressed out doing sales calls or that kind of stuff. I've done all that stuff enough where it doesn't really bother me too much. Even tough things where you have to be really tough with the client, or vendor, or something like that. It doesn't, I mean it bothers me temporarily of course you get the adrenaline going and no one likes that. But it's really the things that give me anxiety and up at night is if I make a mistake that will cause us not to be able to pay payroll. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: Now, one note. We've always paid payroll. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: But that is something- KEN: There's been some close calls. TODD: That is something that- KEN: Yeah. TODD: That makes me work harder, and it makes me worry. Me, personally, I could figure it out, it's not as big of a deal to me. KEN: Well, I think also a big stressor that I didn't ... it makes sense in retrospect, but it wasn't one that like occurred to me, is how hard it is to maintain focus over time- JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative) TODD: Yeah. KEN: -when you don't have a boss doing that for you. I was a small scale boss at my previous jobs, but this experience definitely makes me want to write a nice little note of apology to every boss I've ever had. Like, however bad they were, I have more sort of sympathy for what they were dealing with then I did before. TODD: That's so true. KEN: Yeah, and the surprising thing is how hard it is to cope with success. When you're doing well, that's when the monster of de-focusing really starts to rear its head. It's like driving a car fast. If you've never driven a car at 150 miles an hour, it's a different thing from driving it at 60 miles an hour. It takes a little getting used to that state, oh things are going well, but that doesn't mean that I get to take my eyes off the road. TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: So. CHRIS MARTIN: Can you guys go in a little deeper on how you manage some of these things? 'Cause you've talked about having the feelings of stress and fear, but maybe some of the ways that you manage it, a part from kicking Ken. KEN: That's Todd's favorite. TODD: Well, Ken mentioned that success can be hard to deal with, and I have a tried and true technique I've used for many years with dealing with the problems of success. And here it is. And I'll share it with you. I normally would charge for this advice, but I'm gonna share. Don't be successful. There you go. KEN: Yeah. TODD: You're welcome. KEN: That one we're still figuring out. Having co-founders you actually trust is probably the number one. TODD: Yeah, it's hard to do, and at one time in my career I said I would never ever had a partner or a co-founder again. And here we are, so. JAMON: I think getting together in person is important. Of course, we're a remote company. So I'm up here near Portland, and Ken's in the Bay Area, and Todd's in Vegas, but we did get together a couple weeks ago to talk. And there was a stressful situation going on, and that was something that we went through together in person. TODD: Well, we also hang out in zoom a lot. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: Every week. And that's similar. But, yeah having good co-founders who are your friends, and you become almost married at a point, because when you're in business together it is like a marriage, and you know everyone's finances. You know if someone's spouse is having problems with the way the company's working. You have to deal with that- JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- TODD: -at least as an auxiliary person in that particular thing. So it's a very intimate thing for sure. I definitely choose that very, very, very wisely. I've had bad experiences, and of course I've had great experiences here. JAMON: I think that one of the things that we actually do fairly well is we will say when we're stressed. You know, we'll say, "Hey, I am currently feeling a high degree of stress." And then the other co-founders can say, "Okay, what is causing this." And we can talk about it more objectively. And just saying it out loud sometimes is a way to kind of like let go of it a little bit. TODD: We also know how to fight which takes a while. That's a hard one to learn. JAMON: It is. TODD: But we've learned how to fight. Yell at each other, and know that afterwards we're going to be okay, and that's important. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: The trust that you would gain with a girlfriend or boyfriend or your spouse- KEN: Sibling TODD: -where you can have an emotional throw up as it were and know that you're still gonna be loved as it were. KEN: Well, and also it's sort of on the focusing issue, actually. It's relevant there too which is that I'm pretty ADD I would say. I think that's probably pretty common I would say for entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurship is one place where you can actually challenge your ADD tendencies. However, I also know it's like, "Hey guys, I'm having some trouble focusing and motivating on x, y, and z- JAMON: Right. KEN: -can I have help with knowing that there's not going to be any judgment coming along- JAMON: Right. KEN: -with that help?" JAMON: Right. Yeah. TODD: To be clear, it's all not roses. Sometimes one of us gets irritated with the other person because of these issues and- JAMON: Right. TODD: -but ultimately once we get talking to it, we're not super human. Sometimes I get irritated with Jamon or Ken and vice versa. But the whole point is, when you get to the end of that, you're supportive. JAMON: Another really important thing is to have some really core principles. Some kind of tent poles so-to-speak that you can come back to. One of the things that we really strongly believe is that the core of us three is one of the most important things about this company. And so we can come back to that. I mean, if the most important thing that we had was some technology or some financial goal or something like that, then it would put a lot of stresses on our relationship, but since we've made that relationship such a high priority, it's extremely important. And another thing, along those lines, is we recognize that we are human, and that sometimes it's actually a personal situation that's contributing to work stress. TODD: Yes. JAMON: You might have situation where maybe a family member has health issues or you're having trouble with a relationship, or anything along those lines, and we ... I was actually talking to an employee recently who talked about a personal situation that they were having and how it was contributing to their stress, and I had noticed the stress that they were going through at work, but I didn't know about the personal situation, and it's okay. I told them, "It's fine. It's a normal, human thing to have situations that arise. I understand. It's something that you can tell us, if there's something going on, you don't have to be specific. You don't have to tell us private information, but just tell us that something's going on, and we will do our best to be as understanding as possible." TODD: And it's a matter of trust. That particular person trusted Jamon. That's fantastic. It's trust that we build up between founders. It's trust with the team, and to some extent, trust with your customers, and your vendors. Especially with customers and vendors, if you can do that, that's fantastic, but the others you can do with time. Just to give you an example, trust. I try to be trusting even when I shouldn't be. I picked up this guy the other day, in my car, he gets in the backseat. I just picked him up. I didn't know him, and first he gets in, understandably he's like, "Thanks for picking me up, but how do you know I'm not a serial killer?" TODD: And I just looked at him. I'm like, "What's the chance two serial killers would be in the same car?" Pretty low. So, yeah trust is very important. Any other tools or techniques that you all have for dealing with these anxieties or stresses or whatever? KEN: Drinking. Drinking is important. Water. Water. JAMON: Lots of water. KEN: What do you think I meant? Oh, come one. JAMON: Yes, stay hydrated. KEN: Yes, stay hydrated. Yeah. JAMON: Actually, along those lines, I started working out a couple years ago, and that has been a really good help for my stress level. When I get through with a workout, I feel better about myself. I feel good. There's probably some endorphins or something that come with that. And it's really hard when you are really critically needed at work to take two hours to go workout, but it's also extremely important for your long-term health. And so you have to prioritize it very high. And you can basically justify it to yourself which I had to do with if I go and do this, I will be better equipped to handle the issues that come up, and it's so true. Working out has been a very good thing for my stress level. TODD: A lot of people might be worried about their finances or their spouse's opinion and that kind of stuff. Which can be super challenging, so you have to deal with that. Another thing that I've noticed is, and this is pretty common, especially in our world, and I have to remember that 110 years ago, Ken'll tell me a real number, but somewhere around there. Most people worked at home, and most people had their own business. They didn't call it their own business, they were just a blacksmith, and people paid you to hoove their horses or not hoove. JAMON: Shoe. TODD: Shoe. KEN: Shoe. TODD: Shoe their horses. Thank you. It's been a while since I've lived on the farm about 30 years, but anyway- JAMON: It's that a farrier or something? TODD: Huh? JAMON: Ken, isn't it- KEN: A farrier. JAMON: Yeah, it's a farrier. KEN: That sounds right. TODD: Whatever that means. Anyways, so you would just do that. You'd just offer your services and that was a home business quote unquote. But, you know, since we all grew up in the late 20th century or the 21st century, for our younger listeners, you know that has been not the normal but the minority. And so a lot of people I've talked with, they said, "Well, can I do that? Do I have the permission to do that or whatever?" And it is kind of hard to get to their skull like who are you asking permission from? There isn't ... there is the government who has rules, but despite what you might think about the government, the rules are actually fairly basic and the IRS of course wants you to pay the money, but that's actually not the difficult to be honest either. So it's just really an internal stumbling block. You don't have to ask anyone. You can go right now. Get a business license, and sell bottles of water at a popular park. Right now, and you technically have a small business. JAMON: Regarding the personal finances side of this, one of the things that my wife and I did early on that really helped was we did a monthly budget. So we used the tool called YNAB, youneedabudget.com, and we sat down every month together, and we entered all of our receipts and we had categories and we split everything up. We were kind of finance nerds during this time, and that was helpful, because it gave us a sense of control over our finances. We knew where we were. We knew whether we had enough money to pay the mortgage. We knew how much, we could specifically tell you what day we would run out of money if we couldn't bring anything in, and that was helpful. Now, sometimes the math brings its own anxiety, but at least you know where it is, and it's not this unknown out there all the time. Actually, more lately, we've gotten away from that. After almost 15 years of marriage, and I kind of want to go back to it, because there are some stresses that come from not knowing. TODD: Yeah, sometimes everything is just fine, but just don't know it, and you assume the worst because- JAMON: Exactly. TODD: -people do. So I have a question for Ken. I grew up very poor, just some background, but later in my early 20s and stuff, my family actually started doing pretty well. My mom and my step-father ran a couple businesses. My brother started businesses and has done very well for himself. So, although, in my younger life, we were almost less than working class, to be honest. Later in life, we had a lot of experience with business. So me being in business was very natural to me, and my family understood, and they actually didn't understand when I was working for someone else. It was weird to them, but Ken, I know from discussions with you, the opposite was true. From your family, there wasn't anyone who were business people and that kind of stuff, and it was kind of outside your culture. I would love to hear if maybe that caused any particular issues for you? KEN: Yeah, for sure. I grew up in what I would call kind of professional slash academic class household. Right? College degrees going very far back in my family. Doctors, lawyers, scientists, illustrators, artists, also but professionals of various kinds. Going back quite a while. There was a flavor of business being looked down upon a little bit, and that was definitely, even when I got to Harvard. There was that divide was still there even though Harvard certainly has both types. The professional type to kind of like, well I'm good at something. I'm really good at this, and I'm so good at it people want to pay me good money for it. And that's a perfectly good life. And I'm actually here to tell you right now, if you have those skills. If you are happy doing them, you're in a good position. Should you start a business? The answer is probably no. Right? I did it because I couldn't stand not doing it. Right? It was just this terrifying but enticing thing for as long as I could remember to be ... I just wanted to be on my own. I want to do this. Ah. Right. It was this dragon inside that I couldn't contain. In some degrees, it made me a bad employee. Sometimes. Right, because anybody who's not doing what they're sort of supposed to be doing is not happy. Right? Jamon, do you want to interject? JAMON: Oh, I just want to say in Ken's family if you say someone is a painter, that means that they are an artist, and they paint on canvas. In my family, if someone's a painter, that means they spray paint on houses. KEN: Yes. TODD: In my family, if someone's a painter you're like, "Oh, he's got a job. That's wonderful." KEN: Yeah, so the three of us we talk about this class stuff all the time because when you start talking with people who grew up in different backgrounds, you start to realize what your blind spots are. Like, I remember Todd saying, growing up people who went to the movies were rich or something like that. Todd, do you remember what some of your things were? TODD: Oh, there's a long list of what rich people do that most people would find amusing. KEN: For me, not only ... I grew up in a fairly prosperous town. I would say. Right, but I wouldn't call it, there weren't a lot of rich, rich, rich people, but it was prosperous. And then going to Harvard, of course you get exposed to all sorts, and you start to realize how high the ladder goes. Right? And that gave me I think a sort of warped perspective on life. And Todd's perspective was warped in a different way. And by sort of, not like the three of us, by any stretch of the imagination, now encompass an enormous swath of life experience. JAMON: No. KEN: We're all white dudes for one thing. Right? JAMON: Yes. KEN: But nevertheless, it gives us sort of perspective on things that helps. It blunts some of the fear. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: To have that breadth of perspective. TODD: I'd like to ask Ken, because your family culture wasn't business-oriented, and as you just mentioned, almost a little bit looked down upon business people, I guess for the crassness of it all. KEN: It wasn't overt, but it was definitely outside of our purview. TODD: And definitely your friends from Harvard who weren't in business school or that kind of thing ... do you, like for me. It's easy for me. The bar was so low. I surpassed almost everyone I grew up with long ago. JAMON: Yeah. Similar. TODD: I don't have to prove anything to anyone. KEN: Well, so at this point I don't care very much. At this point, I'm doing my thing and that's that. However, I will point out there is something very interesting about Silicon Valley. Which is that Silicon Valley is a business culture that was grown by people kind of like me- JAMON: Yeah. KEN: -from the professional and scientific culture. JAMON: That's true. KEN: And as a result, that is where, I think, I'm not a sociologist. I haven't studied this or anything, but my theory is that that's where that sort of disdain for lifestyle businesses comes from. I think it's seen as sort of a grind. Where you're getting paid for the brilliance of your idea, you're just getting paid for hard work. JAMON: Yeah, I think that this idea of a lifestyle business, which I don't have any negative connotation whatsoever. In my world, a lifestyle business sounds like a luxury. KEN: Luxury. TODD: Luxury. JAMON: Okay, we're gonna have to link to that YouTube video. TODD: Yes. JAMON: But some Monty Python there. But I think that's actually something that was really, really helpful was when we merged was the idea that we can design this business to be lower stress. That doesn't mean we take our eye off the ball, which we kinda did for a little while there. That doesn't mean that we don't work hard, cause we do when the situation demands it, but we can design the type of business where the general day to day things are not drudgery. They are things that we enjoy doing. That we're good at, and that we can contribute to the success of the business. And I think that that's something that's actually overlooked a little bit when you're owning a business that you do have the ability to change things. You have the ability to enact change. It may be painful. It may be hard. It might be expensive, but you can look at something and say, "You know what, this isn't fitting for me, and I'm gonna change it." Whether it's cutting off a client that's being too stressful. Whether it's hiring someone to do something that you're not good at. All of those things are things that you can do. My sister started a small WordPress website company. So she's building WordPress websites. And she asked me for a lot of advice along the way, because she knew I'd kind of- TODD: Is this Meredith, Jamon? JAMON: Yeah. That's right that's Meredith. And one of the things I told her was that you want to stay with your kids. You want to be at home. You want to build this business that does not interrupt those things, so make those very core priorities. When you make decisions, they should be based on whether they enhance that or take away from that. It kind of gave her permission to look at things through that lens. That you don't have to necessarily measure it on dollars and cents or even things like customer satisfaction. That may be a goal and you don't want to let people down, but ultimately you don't want to let your family down. And that's something that I think is really important. So for her, you know her husband's an engineer, a mechanical engineer. He makes good money. It's not something where they have to have the business, but she wanted something that challenged her while she was also able to be at home, and I think it's done that. TODD: And the people she worked with on her team are similar, correct? JAMON: Yeah, that's right. So she not only provided a business that works for her, but also for the people on her team. So she actually has people that do code. That do design. That do content. And in many cases they are people who stay at home with their kids. And that's kind of a cool concept that there could be a business that enables that. TODD: I think that super important to mention the reason why, because people think that their business has to be like they see on TV or they read about it in a magazine or a book or whatever, and it doesn't. What principles you base your business on is up to you, and then your job is to figure out a way to make that happen. I think it's awesome that she wanted to help herself and her team who want a particular lifestyle and still be able to have this business, and she's doing it, and that's wonderful. KEN: Yeah, and I think it's worth saying on the list of reasons to start a business, getting rich should probably not be your number one. If getting rich is your number one reason, well I mean that's fine, and depending on your personality, it at least has that as a possibility. JAMON: Sure. KEN: Whereas most jobs done. At least not on any sort of short time frame. The number one reason to do it is 'cause you want more control over your life. And that's why we did it. So the first year that I took off, when we were still trying to build an ap and we hadn't done the consulting yet, my daughter was two, and to save money we took less daycare. I had to still have some, 'cause we both work, but did less daycare. So I spent time with her. I cooked for the family. I found all these ways to save money, and I was sort of part-time house husband while this was going on, and even if the rest of this fails, right? Even if we crash and burn, the chance to have that year and do that will be with me the rest of my life. So, part of our mission here at Infinite Red, and something we've always agreed on is that we don't just want a successful business. We have to do that in order to make the rest of this work. And it's a perfectly good goal in itself, but that we also want to be an example of how work can work. Right? Not that there aren't others, but this is us. This is what we think work should be like. Not that it's never intense. Not that it's never hard. Not that it's some sort of walk in the park. It is not. But that it can co-exist with the rest of your life in a much more harmonious way than has been the model for 20th century corporate whatever. TODD: Yeah, there are other ways to run a business, all of them are wrong. CHRIS: Ken do you think that when we ... that struggle occurs when we move away from those principles and values and what's important to us as business owners or whatever that label would be? So like, when you move away from maybe wanting to spend time with your family or building a company where it fuels the lives of your employees. You know, do you think that fear and intention is magnified if you move away from those things? KEN: What do you mean by move away from those things? CHRIS: So that they're no longer a priority. Maybe you're making decisions that go against those values. KEN: That is definitely a source of stress. And the fact of the matter is, we are still a business. We still have to operate in the same environment that every other business does. And we have to compete against businesses that don't operate the way we do. JAMON: Right. KEN: And to whatever extent our values create, like I said, put us at a disadvantage, and I think sometimes in the short term that is true. We sometimes have to make hard choices in order to survive and work another day. And I think there's probably kind of a core, not exactly explicitly articulated, there's some core that we won't push past, but when we have to hopefully temporarily do things that are different from our stated values. Yeah, that's rough. Absolutely rough. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: The trick is to kind of figure out ... this is why it's so important to figure out what your real values are. Right? And we've had to sort of narrow it down in certain places, because if you have this long list of things that you claim to care about, but that's not actually true. Right? Then, when it really comes down to it, there are some things that are more core than others. If you die on the hill of one of the non-core ones, and it causes you to fail, that is an unacceptable outcome. And so, figuring out which hills you're really willing to die on and which hills you're not willing to die on is super important and there's not really a shortcut. It's something that you figure out as you go along. TODD: If you're getting chased by zombies through a forest and the zombies are starting to catch up to you, sometimes you have to give grandma a cookie and push her down the hill. That's all I'm saying. It sucks. It's against your principles, but grandma's lived a good life, and she loves those cookies. Fact. JAMON: I don't even know how to follow up on that one, but one of the things I was asked early on when I started my company was, what are your core principles and I kind of fumbled through an answer, and I don't even remember what it was at the time. But I actually think it was probably not reasonable for me to even know what those were at the time other than personal values, but over time, taking lumps here and there and bruises, and the stress and anxiety of various situations, it's made it very clear what is really important. At the time I was young, I was idealistic. I didn't really understand what could go wrong. What mattered. What didn't. But I think that all of those stresses and fears eventually taught me a lot of things and so in a lot of ways, even though they kind of sucked at the time, they were necessary to get me to who I am today. You know, I don't want to go back and relive them, but I wouldn't trade them away. TODD: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well that was super interesting to me. I knew some of that. I learned some new stuff which is always fun, and I hope it has some value to the listeners for sure. You know, our experience. At least it's hopefully an interesting story if nothing more. JAMON: Absolutely.

The theme of this episode is centered around the lessons learned in charging for software development. Starting with a question from the Infinite Red Community, Todd, Ken, and Jamon touch on hourly vs. project pricing, the tension between time and value, how software estimating is a lot like weather forecasting, and the many experiments conducted over the years to find the right pricing model for Infinite Red. Episode Transcript JAMON HOLMGREN: We received a question from the community, community.infinite.red, it's a Slack community that we have. Trent asks, "Hey Jamon, I'm enjoying the podcast. Will you guys be covering hourly pricing versus project pricing? It's a question we're dealing with right now. Which do you guys prefer, and what are some lessons learned to bring you to that choice?" I think this is a really great question. Todd, do you wanna talk about what we're doing right now? And then we can go into maybe what we've done in the past, and what brought us to that choice? TODD WERTH: Sounds good. Yeah that's a great question, and it's actually a really tough one to deal with. So, what we do now, is we do weekly pricing. We charge per person-week, and we call it "person-week" as opposed to "a week of work" because it could actually be two people working maybe half a week each and that would be one "person-week." Because we're doing person-weeks, we have a point system. So, 100 points equals a person-week. We don't track time. We used to, and we can talk about that—we used to bill hourly. We don't track time, we don't actually know how long things take, it's just, we estimate our tasks in points, and if we've reached a hundred or more per person-week and we charge per person-week, then we're accomplishing our goal. JAMON: There's a bit of a tension between time and value, and this has been something that we've dealt with, I mean, I've dealt with, since I started my first consultancy. Of course, value-based pricing is kind of a holy grail of pricing for consultancies, and we've heard this for a long time, that you should charge for the value, not just the time that it takes. So an example, this would be fixed-bid pricing, where you're essentially betting on delivering the software in a reasonable amount of time, but you're getting paid on the value to the client. The problem is that our costs are not based on value. So, we're not necessarily paying our people based on the fixed-bid, a percentage of the fixed-bid, or something like that. There are industries that do that, but ours is not one of them. So we're paying people salaries, and our costs are over time, and so if something takes a very long time, then our profitability and the ability of the company to remain financially solvent is threatened. Conversely, you have, of course, hourly. We've done that in the past, and the nice thing about hourly is that it corresponds, obviously, very tightly with the amount of time that it takes to do. But the problem is that every hour is not equal. You have hours that are maybe really valuable, you've automated something and in a lot of cases you're actually delivering more value than the client is paying for, quite a bit more. And then there are others where the person's getting spun up, or they're hung up on a particular problem, whether it's their fault or not, and that turns into a bit of an issue, because then you're billing hundreds of dollars an hour for something where the client isn't really getting a lot of value. So I think that's why we ended up where we are, in a way. TODD: Yeah, both have issues. When you're doing hourly, it might seem to a client that's more fair, but it's not. It means every time there's a bug, or any time there's an issue, we basically are nickel-and-dimeing them, and they don't necessarily like that. We have to spin up someone, like Jamon said, where in our value system that we use now, they don't see any of that. We fix the bugs because it's part of the value of that particular feature. It does mean, though, sometimes, that we can produce a feature faster than the hourly would've been, and so they get charged, I guess, more for that. KEN MILLER: There's a couple of different ways that hourly works out sometimes, though. There's certainly the very literal, like, you sit there and you run a clock, like the way a lawyer would, you actually have a little timer that shows exactly what you're doing. When I worked for a large sort of corporate consulting company, Big Five-style, back in the '90s, I remember my first week I was filling out my time card, and I filled in the insane hours that I worked, because that's the kind of work that you do. And my project manager comes over to me and he's like, "No no no no no no no no, this is not what you do." And he took my time card and he filled in "eight, eight, eight, eight, eight." (laughter) TODD: That's ridiculous. But... KEN: Right. So that's how the Big Five work, often. TODD: So it's completely fake in that situation. KEN: It's completely fake. It's basically pretty close to what we do now, which is that weekly billing. Where an hour is just a way of measuring a week. To answer the question directly, you know, do we prefer hourly or project-based, we prefer hourly. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Hourly leads to less problems in the long term because the trouble with fixed bid, although it seems like it's appealing—It's appealing from your point of view, if you think you can be really efficient, and it's appealing from their point of view if they think you can't. But that's exactly it right there, it creates this adversarial relationship. Todd? TODD: Yeah, clients all– not all, but many clients think they would love a fixed bid. And in truth, they will hate a fixed bid. Ken's right. Fixed bids create an adversarial situation. Even if both sides are extremely... They're at the table in good faith, and they're trying to do the right thing and do their part and stuff, it still means that the client is trying to get as many hours as possible out of you for the same price, and us would be trying to do as few hours as possible. Like I said, even if you're both being very nice and very ethical in the way you're billing, that always creeps in. It also means that you have to lawyer every change. You'll have companies that have change order systems that are pretty complex. Clients hate that. When I talked to especially start-ups, one of the things I say is if the project we're working on at the end ends up exactly as you envisioned at the beginning, that's a huge red flag. That means you didn't listen to your beta testers, that means you didn't think at all during the process even after you got in your hands what could be better, it means a bunch of different things. So, we have a pretty strong process, but it's designed to be flexible. We wanted it to be flexible. So when we get to the point when we do estimation after a research phase, it's fairly accurate. The likelihood that it will actually produce your project for this estimate is extremely low. Not because we're incompetent– I'm sometimes incompetent– not because we're incompetent, but because you're gonna make a bunch of changes, and we welcome that. We don't lawyer that. But that's a little bit difficult, there's a little bit of education involved in getting people to understand that fully. JAMON: One of the objections is that, well, there are other companies that do fixed-bid, and they seem to do just fine. They're able to sustain that and their customers are generally happy, and things like that. But I think there's a hidden cost in there that people don't take into account. Which we've sort of driven a stake into the ground, we've said, "Hey, we're not willing to go down this route." And that is that those companies put the burden of hitting those estimates onto their employees. They essentially say, "Okay, well, we estimated this amount, you're not done yet, so you're gonna stay late until it's done." And they push, and push, and push, and they really, really just drive the screws in on their employees. Maybe not overtly, maybe not directly, but there's a culture and an expectation of being able to hit those estimates that puts a lot of stress on the employees. KEN: Yeah, that doesn't necessarily look like a slave driver. It can look like a "Rah-rah, sleep when you're dead," "work hard, play hard." "Rah!" But like, that kind of corporate culture. There are firms out there that I respect that do fixed-bids, and they seem to make it work, and that's fine. But in our experience, someone is paying for that somewhere. JAMON: Exactly. TODD: There's another type of fixed-bid which isn't just slave-driving your employees into the dirt. It is, you think it's gonna cost $100,000 on this project, you bid $800,000. So no matter what, unless you're ridiculously off, you're fine. The problem comes in when clients want both the lowest possible price and a fixed-bid. That just... It's not really possible. JAMON: So, our system is different. And Todd, I'd like you to talk a little bit about why our... Because, we are giving an estimate with points, and we're trying to hit those points, so it may feel like a fixed-bid, but do you want to explain what we're doing differently, where it really does change over time as you do a project? TODD: Yeah, so we do spend a decent amount of time doing research, architecture, that kind of stuff, before we estimate the points. So we're not just doing a ballpark estimate. We do a ballpark estimate at the beginning, but that's a few hours of our time. But we spend a few weeks or whatever doing research, architecture, that kind of stuff. And at the end of that, we produce an estimate in points. So those are fairly accurate. Obviously, anyone out there who does software development... By the way, everything we're talking about here is for development. On the design side, we do fixed-bids, and that's a different discussion. The gentleman who asked us the question was more towards the development side, so that's what we're talking about. JAMON: Right. TODD: So, our estimates are based on a whole lot more information than a lot of people do. And we do have clients who want an accurate estimate earlier, and we just have to push back, because in that situation we have only two options: We either push back against them and try to educate them in the process and help them do a successful project, or we lie to them. (laughter) And unfortunately a lot of companies just lie. They just come up with a number, they act like they put some thought into it– they didn't. I worked for a consulting company in the late '90s where the way we estimated was we asked the sales person how much they could afford. That was our miracle estimate. Which to me, I hated as an engineer. I just loathed it. I'm digressing a little bit here, but I don't want to make it out that our estimates are super accurate or that estimating software at all is an accurate thing at all. We know it's not. KEN: One of our sort of colleague companies out there calls them "forecasts," which I really like. People understand, like, a weather forecast is not necessarily going to be accurate. It's like, "Based on what we can see right now, this is what we think is gonna happen." And everyone understands that. So I really like that as a bit of language. TODD: Yeah, we should call it "forecasts." KEN: I'm tempted to steal that, but... (laughter) TODD: The other cool thing about a forecast is it's known: the further out you are from the date, the less accurate the forecast is, and the closer you get, the more accurate, and that's very true in our situation as well. JAMON: That's a great point, Todd, because we will definitely adjust those estimates as we get into things, and as we learn more. And I try to, I do a lot of the sales calls now, and one of the things I try to do is set the expectation that over time, the estimates will get more and more accurate, as we know more. The same thing with the weather forecast. You look at the ten-day, and you look at day number ten, and as you get closer and closer, you're gonna see a better and better forecast. And it's not uncommon for that to change even quite drastically, because weather systems can get delayed a little bit or something, and that can impact which day they land. KEN: Unless you live in California, in which case our weather never changes. JAMON: Yeah. No, I live in the Pacific Northwest near the Columbia River Gorge, and nobody understands the weather here. TODD: Our weather's hot and sunny. Tomorrow? Hot and sunny. The next day? Hot and sunny. JAMON: What if it's- KEN: And then a terrifying thunderstorm. And then hot and sunny. TODD: Once a year, we have terrifying water from the sky. I live in Las Vegas, Nevada, which is in this very small patch– I'm totally digressing here– but it's a very small patch in the US with the most sunshine out of the whole US, and it's just basically Las Vegas and around the desert area here. I think it's something ridiculous like 300 and some days of pure sunshine. Which is nice, as I lived in San Francisco for 20 years, and it is the opposite of that. And I enjoyed that for a long time, but I enjoy this. Anyways. So one of the things I wanted to bring up is, and we should talk about estimates. Because estimates are a big part of how you charge. And it is a difficult problem, and we have all sorts of issues that, I think, would be very interesting for listeners to hear that they're not alone in, and that we're still struggling with. KEN: Nobody has a magic bullet. Nobody has a magic bullet on that. TODD: It's a soft problem, it's definitely a people problem, and it's something that I'm actually actively working on all the time. But to finish up what we were saying before, we do find that weekly billing has worked out very well. It does require education. Your clients may instinctively go, "Okay, well they're just doing this to make more money because they're gonna get it done way faster, and they're actually gonna charge me this extra money, and they're not gonna do anything." And that's a perfectly normal human reaction. But one of the ways that we added some sugar to that tea is we say, "A bug comes up, sometimes bugs take five minutes, sometimes bugs take a half a week to fix. That's all included in that estimate. You don't have to worry about that. No nickel-and-dimeing." When the estimate goes up, say we add person-weeks to the overall estimate, and then maybe we add some calendar-weeks... By the way, we have typically a minimum team of two, and most times people work on one project full-time, so if you have a two person team on a project, we're producing two person-weeks per week. From that, and the number of points we estimate, we can calculate the calendar time, as opposed to the person-week time. And the calendar time does get extended, and the person-weeks do get extended. But it's always– not always, but it's usually from changes, and we try to be very good about being very transparent in explaining, and the client should know what all those changes were. They hopefully have approved them, and that's what adds the person-weeks and that sort of thing. JAMON: There are some times where we will feel like maybe we made a mistake, in such a way that it was maybe, we're not comfortable charging the client more for a particular thing. And in that case we will adjust what we're billing for a particular chunk of a project. And we'll take on that risk. There's a shared expectation of being reasonable in this. If a client's asking for something, then we're gonna bill more. If we make a mistake, then we'll try to rectify that as much as possible. But it does have flexibility built in, and that's important. But then also, like you said, Todd, the bug-fixing is built in and things like that. That really helps mitigate the amount of risk that the client is taking on. TODD: And truthfully, it's much easier for people doing the actual work, because they don't have to constantly, "Oh, this three-hour task is now a five-hour task, I have to ask permission for those extra two-hours, and it's just a lot of paperwork and a lot of thought about stuff that has nothing to do with making a great project." But yeah, and I also want to add on to what Jamon just said, the way we deal with issues... Let's say the value wasn't there, we had some problems, we typically deal with it on the invoicing side. We tell our people, "Okay, for whatever reason we're not gonna be charging for these person-weeks." But from their perspective, it doesn't matter. They're estimating points, they're working during the week, they're getting at least a hundred points per person-week, and they just keep on going forward. We'll adjust it on the back side, on the invoicing side so that our process keeps going and we have accurate data, even if we're in a situation where we made a big mistake or something like that, and we're not charging them for, say, a few weeks or whatever. JAMON: Yeah, totally. And Ken, would you wanna talk about the chronic problem of under-estimating? 'Cause I know this is something that's near and dear to your heart. KEN: Yeah, I don't know why engineers... I don't know if they want to feel like they, you know, they're really fast, or they feel guilty, or if it's imposter syndrome, or whatever it is, but it is a chronic problem. Engineers will estimate too optimistically. So we have sort of structures and practices, and this is not an easy problem to solve, right? But we have sort of structures and practices in place to sort of counter-act that, hopefully, whether it's sort of checklists like, "Have you considered these sort of failure cases? Have you included the bug-fixing and the testing time? Is the testing time including every platform that you could possibly use this on?" Et cetera, et cetera. Todd? TODD: Yeah, this is a problem we have not solved. We really try to hire, and I think we have hired, really decent, ethical people. Which is fantastic, and that's the intention, and I very much enjoy working with almost everyone here (maybe not Ken, but that's okay). (laughter) KEN: You can't fire me. (laughter) TODD: I cannot. I've tried many times. KEN: It's a perk of the job. TODD: Actually, it's funny, because I've been working on this a lot lately. We hire good, ethical people, which I very much enjoy. But they tend to feel more guilt, and they tend to be a little... They contemplate it and worry about it a little too much, to be honest. And so we do have chronic under-billing. One of the things we do is, we ask them for estimates, and we never ever– up to this point I've ever said, "This estimate's too high. You need to reduce this estimate." Because this is the estimate they're giving us, and they're gonna do the work, and it's not fair for us to come and say, you know, "You said it's gonna take a hundred points, I think it'd take 50 points." And of course when they do it and it takes a hundred points, they've failed, but only because in my opinion it should've been 50. We never do that. We never push back on that. So you would think that just human nature, in order to alleviate stress, they would say, "Okay, that's gonna take 50 points, but I'm gonna make it a hundred and 50 points just to give me an allowance." No one does that, surprisingly. That is not the problem we deal with. It could be just our team. Probably not just our team, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who do that. KEN: I mean, I've seen this everywhere I've ever worked, right? People wanna feel like a hero, people don't... It's not as much fun to think about all the ways that things go wrong, well, depending on your personality I guess. But yeah, the ideal way that we're always striving toward is basically, the engineer gives us as accurate and conservative of an estimate as possible. And then in terms of how we present it to the client, if we feel we need to make an economic adjustment in order to get a sale, for example, then we will do that on our end. We don't want it baked into the estimate. JAMON: And Todd actually ran an experiment with our own engineers at one point. He took a screen, I think it was a login screen of a project we'd actually already done- TODD: Yes. JAMON: -and sent it to several engineers and asked what their estimate was. Do you wanna talk about that, Todd? TODD: Yeah, I've done a few of these to try to kind of understand this problem. In that case, it wasn't clear what kind of project it was, whether it was a mobile app, an iPad app, a website. I did that on purpose. I also didn't give them any requirements other than I gave them a screenshot. Which is not untypical to get from a client if we didn't do the design, to just get the screenshots. So I wanted to see A) how they approached the estimation process, and B) what their estimates were. I'll skip to the spoiler part. The lowest one was like three hours? This is back when we did hours, we weren't doing points. The highest one was like 46 hours. So the range is three hours to 46 hours. Some people, their estimate wasn't accurate for obvious reasons, they got back to me within five minutes and didn't ask any questions. And that was more on the junior side, and that's perfectly fine. Estimating is probably one of the most difficult things that we do, and so it's understandable when people with less experience do it less well. But the interesting part is that a lot of people didn't even ask what platform it was on. The person who did 46 hours, the highest one, had a huge write-up of all the reasons why it was 46. And when you look at it, you're like, "Yeah." Because it seemed very simple. Like, it's a login screen. It's two text inputs and a button that says "Login." But there's actually a huge amount of stuff. A lot of people assumed they were just doing the screen as opposed to actually making it work, like, making you log in to the backend, and Facebook integration and all this stuff. But the fascinating part is how different it was and their different approaches. KEN: It should be mentioned, though, just for the record, that the way this exercise was set up was intentionally, on Todd's part, very vague. Right? It wasn't like, "Hey, I need you to do this for a client so that we can get a good estimate." It was a very off-hand... But the range of responses to that very vague setup was illuminating. Because some people are constitutionally incapable of not treating that seriously. (laughter) And some people are like, "Whatever Todd, I've got work to do." Right? So there's gonna be a very broad range there, and the range of real estimates is probably not gonna be quite as wide. But still. TODD: Ken has a particular personality, and so does a few other people on our team, where he really didn't like the "gotcha" part of that question, the vagueness of it. And he felt like I was looking for a real answer and he was set up to fail on the real answer because I didn't give him any information. That wasn't the point of it. I actually didn't care what their answer was as much as the process by which they went around the answer. And I didn't say that, on purpose, too. And so he was a little bit like, "You're setting me up to fail, I don't like this, go to hell." Which was kind of funny. But it's funny from my perspective, but it's also illuminating. For people with that type of personality, that's the reaction they have to that, and that's a very real thing. KEN: Well, it's also, like, if you just ask me a very vague off-hand question, I'm gonna devote a vague off-hand amount of attention to it. Right? And I think a lot of other people are gonna be that way too. It's kind of like, "Oh, okay, without any further information, why am I gonna spend an hour breaking down this problem for you?" Or however long it takes. JAMON: I will point out that mine was both quick and accurate. TODD: Yeah, I hate giving Jamon a compliment, but I thought Jamon's was one of the more accurate, and he did it very fast, and it was very thorough. KEN: We brought Jamon on because he's lucky. TODD: That's right. I have a rule: Every quarter, I randomly fire one of our team. And the reason I do this is very simple. I don't want anyone unlucky working at our company. That's a joke, in case anyone thought it wasn't. We don't horribly fire people because they're unlucky. But yeah, so that's a very interesting thing on that. There's other interesting things too. Another experiment I did was, I had people estimate something simple again. Then they gave me the estimate, whatever it was– the numbers don't matter, but let's say they said 10 hours, and this is once again, back when we did hours. If they said 10 hours, then I would say, "Okay, what's the likelihood– are you 100 percent confident that you can do it in 10 hours or under? Are you 90 percent confident? 80 percent confident?" And then I would ask them, "Okay, how about eleven hours? How about twelve hours, how about thirteen hours?" And what I found is that the first estimate they gave me, almost no one was confident they could do it in that time. Which was fascinating- JAMON: Yeah, it'd be something like 60 percent or something, and then you'd have to go quite a ways up before they were 90, 95 percent confident. TODD: Correct. So I'm not sure exactly what to make of that, except for, that's a phenomenon. JAMON: I did ask some of our employees that were doing an estimate to include a confidence factor. And that estimation is not done yet. It should be in the next week or two, and it'll be interesting to go through that and see where they landed. KEN: Yeah, that would be interesting. JAMON: There are some other reasons why you might not be confident. Maybe there are a bunch of unknowns that we will have to dig into before we'll know for sure, and there's no amount of hours that would satisfy that necessarily. But I think that that's something... You should give a number... Again, we're not doing hours, but doing the point system you should have your estimate units, of course, for each task, but then also include a confidence factor. And that might be a percentage or something that you're confident. I think that's an aspect that maybe will be helpful going forward. TODD: To be clear, that's a hypothesis. Jamon has at this point, we haven't tested that. So take that as an idea. JAMON: That's exactly right, yeah. TODD: Another thing I asked them was, it's very fascinating, the same kind of line of questioning on giving them a very simple thing to estimate. And then I asked them, "Does that include tests? Does that include QA? Does that include bug fixes? Does that include any production issues when it goes out to the real world?" All over the map, whether or not they included, very few people said it included all of that. So when you asked them, "How long will this take?" They didn't take that question as, "How much time will you spend to have this completely done and you never touch it again?" Very few people took it that way. They more took it as, "I could get it done and in the app and then later we would debug it or test it or make changes or whatever, but that's not included in my estimate." So that was a fascinating result, also. Now, I don't have any recommendations for any of this, other than it's very interesting to see how people's minds work, and how different people's minds work differently when they're given a task to estimate how long something will take. JAMON: There's a couple of ways that we can mitigate that. Ken mentioned earlier, checklists. I think those are probably under-utilized. That's something that we should use more. So when you're looking at a screen, you'd have a checklist of things. And maybe some of them don't apply and you just mark them off. But some of them are definitely... KEN: Yeah, there's something else that we're trying, which I've never really heard of anyone else doing, I've never encountered it before. We're trying to keep a database of past features so that instead of sitting and de novo every time, sort of like thinking through step-by-step every feature, you say, "Does this feature feel more like this one or that one?" Right? And then you just take the number that we actually empirically determined previously. JAMON: So it gives you kind of an anchor point, and then you can determine if it's maybe more or less than that. KEN: The jury's out on whether this could work as a system or not, but. JAMON: Exactly. TODD: What does "de novo" mean, Ken? KEN: From the beginning, from new. TODD: So, you replaced "from new," which is two syllables, with a three syllable word, "de novo." Okay, just making sure I understand. (laughter) KEN: It has further implications, but whatever, Todd. Feel free to make fun of my vocabulary as much as you like. TODD: I would make fun of your vocabulary, but the word "vocabulary" isn't in my vocabulary, so... KEN: Obviously. TODD: It's a vicious circle. JAMON: So I think it's good maybe for us to go back a couple years, maybe. When we merged, we had... We try to be a little bit unconventional in our thinking. We try not to bring a lot of preconceived notions into what we're doing here, and think things through de novo, you know, start from the beginning, start from– you like how I did that?– start from first principles and kind of look at it in a way that... "Okay, can we innovate on this? Can we look at it and come up with something new?" And we did, actually. And I don't actually remember whose idea this was, maybe one of you does, but we had the idea, "We're gonna bill hourly," was what our initial thought was. "We're gonna bill hourly, and then let's have a base salary for all of our developers and designers, but then pay them per hour billed that they personally billed." And it was an interesting experiment. I think we ran it for probably a year, maybe it was two years? Something like that, with varying success. And we learned a ton of things that you wouldn't when you just start out as salary employees. I will point out that we are now on salary. But we should talk a little bit about that experiment and what we learned there. TODD: Yeah, that was... We had specific goals, and we had tons of good intentions for those goals. And like all good intentions, we fell on our face. But that would be a very interesting podcast in itself, the lessons... What we did, what we went through, what we changed to, and the lessons we learned during the process. JAMON: I think to just kind of give it a really quick little thing, since we've teased it here, one of the things that we found is that people are generally not that motivated by money. Because they can certainly bill more hours and make more money, that was one of the benefits of the system, if you were very productive– KEN: A couple people did. JAMON: Yeah, some people did. KEN: Some people took advantage of that. JAMON: Yeah, for sure, but it was not anywhere near even a quarter of those people. So that was good to know. Other people, they were just motivated by different things. They were motivated, it's not that they're not motivated, but it just wasn't purely by money. Another thing was that there were some situations that ended up not really being very fair. So, some people would be in projects where bill hours were very easy to come by. And others where we really either had to supplement their bill hours or something along those lines. It also didn't really encourage collaboration between people, so there's some silos. The benefit to the company, obviously, is that if we're having sort of a down month because, you know, it's cyclical, then your costs go down. And the benefit to the employee is if you're having a really busy month, then you're getting paid more. But ultimately, that whole system, we went away from, and went to the system that we're using today. TODD: Yeah, I can, in my opinion, it was a complete failure. That being said, it was, I'm pretty sure, originally my idea. And like I said, great intentions, but I think that was one of our biggest failures, to be honest. JAMON: We learned a lot. I think that was the big thing. And those lessons will stick with us. TODD: We learned a lot, and we changed, and, you know... But I think it was more painful than it should've been. KEN: I forget where I sort of read/heard this advice, but basically, when you're starting a new company, you're trying to do something innovative, you should limit what you try to do that's innovative. Focus your innovation where it really counts, and then don't try to innovate too much in the rest of your business practices. I think that that's part of what we learned there. Even setting aside all these sort of incentive things, there's a bunch of things that just work better when people are on salary. Right? Their benefits work better, insurance works better– TODD: Vacation time. KEN: -vacation time works better, there's a bunch of things where there's a whole ecosystem of support for how to run a business. And if you try to innovate in how you do that, you cut yourself out of all those things, and make yourself less competitive on the labor market. You make yourself... You know, you spend more time on things you shouldn't be spending time on. And so, you know, I think we've become in some ways a more conventional company in certain aspects, so that we can stretch out into places that we still want to stretch out. TODD: It's so interesting you said that, Ken, because I literally give people that advice when they're starting out producing an app or a website or whatever it is. For the things that don't matter to your particular customers, or don't matter to your particular business, stick with tried and true. That's well-known, you don't have to worry about that stuff. Put all your innovation and your avant-garde ideas into the things that really differentiate your company from other companies. So it's so funny that you said that in respect to our company, because although we didn't apply it ourselves, it's advice we give. KEN: Well, I had heard that advice before we did all of this. And the truth is, when you're there, you don't always know which one is the most important, right? So that's gonna happen. But it's worth bearing that in mind, to always be asking yourself the question, like, "What really makes us different as a company?" And if it's not this thing that we're doing and spending a lot of time on, maybe rethink that. TODD: I'll personally admit to hubris. KEN: What?! Never. TODD: "We can do anything, and we'll just apply our big brains to it, and we'll figure it out." KEN: Big brains are not the commodity that's in short supply. It's time, right? It's time and attention. JAMON: I think I'll actually disagree a little bit, here. We've actually gotten the feedback that we all agree a little too much here. So I'll play the part of the devil's advocate here. I think it was well worth trying, and I think it was actually based on some things that we... I think in certain cases, actually, it could work, I think it could be actually be something that a particular company could actually make work. It's just that we didn't like some of the side effects of it. Sort of like, taking a certain experimental medication. Maybe it works, but the side effects are not worth it. And I think that that's actually where we ended up with that. I wouldn't, like Todd said, I wouldn't necessarily classify it all as a complete failure. I think there were parts of it that were a failure. And I'm happy with the system we have now, but I'm also very much happy that we tried that. TODD: It was 90 percent a failure. KEN: It got us to the point we are now. TODD: Well, sure. JAMON: What's your confidence level on that, Todd? TODD: I am 90 percent confident that it was a 90 percent failure. CHRIS: Do you guys wanna touch on psychology and perception in the role of pricing? KEN: Oh, man. **CHRIS: That's something I was kind of thinking about as you were talking.## JAMON: Yeah, actually, I do have some thoughts on that. So, one of the questions that comes up is, "When you are selling fixed-bid or hourly, what do clients think? Is it hard to do?" And I've found that neither fixed-bid nor hourly are particularly hard to sell. Both are well-understood. Our current system takes a little more explanation, and so I think that's something we need to continue to work on, our messaging on. But most people understand them. Some people have a problem with it. They'll say, "You know what, we're not willing to do hourly. That puts too much risk on us." And that's totally cool. It's not something that... maybe they're not a good fit for us. KEN: Well, yeah, the thing is, whenever you're asking a vendor to assume risk for you... You're paying for it somewhere, right? You know, if they want you to be the insurance, then you're paying them to provide insurance. Either that, or they're mismanaged and they're gonna go out of business and then you don't have support. You know, when we switched to weekly, I was concerned that we'd have trouble selling it. It doesn't seem like it's been too big of a deal. For the most part, people still mostly care about the total number, correct? And how you get there? TODD: Correct. KEN: They're not as, they're not usually as concerned with... We've had a few cases where... We had something recently where the upstream source of funds was a grant that had rules about how it's charged, so there's things that come up around that. So sometimes we'll make exceptions. And we have at least one enterprise client that we still use hourly. But for the most part, this has been pretty popular. We feel like it has the best of both worlds in some respects, that it has more predictability than hourly, but it still has built-in flexibility that a fixed-bid doesn't. TODD: Our team definitely thinks the weekly is a success. It wasn't that difficult to convert clients from hourly to weekly, and for new clients, they don't seem to mind whatsoever. It's interesting from our team's perspective. Sometimes they could be working more than they used to, because they have to fix these bugs or whatever, but because they don't have the stress or the guilt, a lot of times of the hourly, they still like it better. It's kind of counter-intuitive, in that way. JAMON: Yeah, I think there's three vectors, or three metrics that you would go off of, you know. "How satisfied is the client?" "How stress-free is it for the employees?" And then, "How much do we as owners like it as a business model?" And from those metrics, I feel like all three have been a success. TODD: Yeah, it's definitely been a success. I think we could definitely do with hourly, but I think the weekly billing has been a huge success. I'm 90 percent sure that it was 90 percent a success. (laughter) As far as the psychology from the client standpoint? We understand... One of the things we do, we hire a people who have a lot of experience, either they ran their own small businesses, they ran teams, that kind of stuff. We have a lot of people who have real-world kind of business experience. We're definitely not business consultants, per se, but we do work with a lot of start-ups who need some basic, not basic, but need some of our business consulting. And one of the things that we do is we understand the risk involved. And there's a lot of companies like us don't talk about this at all. For example, from a client's perspective, it's a big purchase. If you're spending 100,000, 200,000, 500,000 dollars? That's a large purchase. If you're a start-up, that's a risky thing. So we try to really think about their risk. Now, we have our own risks, too. We could put five people on a project for a few weeks, incur a huge amount of money, and they could just never pay us, go out of business, whatever reason. So we have risk as well. So we're not here just to alleviate all their risk and put it on our shoulders, being the insurance risk, insurance Ken just mentioned. But we do try to figure out a way to have a nice balance between us helping them with their risk, and them helping us with our risk, and just being up-front. Like, "This is risky, you don't know us. You've had a recommendation, maybe you liked us during a sales call so you're choosing us, but you really don't know us." And we're a huge believer in gaining trust over time. So at the beginning, or whatever that word is Ken had, I forgot now, already, at the beginning, the risks are much higher. So we do put a lot of thought into that. Some clients, to be honest, aren't a good fit for our system. We're very happy to help them find someone who would better fit the system than us. So we do lose some clients, for sure. JAMON: One way that some clients have asked us to share an undue amount of risk is when they ask us for hourly with a cap. That is sort of the worst of both worlds for us. If we finish early, we make less money, but we also take all of the risk of when it goes over. So we really do refuse, essentially, to do that. Now, there have been some situations where we've put such a cap on ourselves because of particular circumstances, but we don't work for clients that demand that sort of thing. TODD: Yeah, we have a general rule where we strive not to work for free. Which sounds funny, especially if you're in a different kind of business than ours, but it's actually super common for businesses like ours to work a lot for free, for nothing. And it's actually, in my opinion, a rampant problem in our industry. So we really strive not to do that. I think that would probably come to a shock for a lot of people. If you're selling hamburgers, the concept, "Well, you know, 30 percent of the people walk through today, you're just gonna give them the hamburger for free." That would be shocking to them. But that's kind of like what people like us do, too much so, in my opinion. Anything else on the psychology from the client standpoint that we could talk to, or talk about? KEN: I mean, pricing is a huge topic. TODD: Could you talk about pricing per week or per hour, the psychology? Because I know you've discussed this in the past, Ken, and I'd love for you to tell people. KEN: Yeah, so one of the things we... We've tried a bunch of different ways of pricing. So one of the things we did before, we would only bill for extreme, like the instant we step away from the keyboard, the timer goes off. When we first started, we tried to do this. So we would charge like a pretty high hourly rate. But then, the actual number of hours burnt would be low. Nobody liked that. Nobody understood that, it was much better to bill in the way that people kind of understood about that. When we would bill hourly, like an hourly rate, we're much more likely to get really kind of angry responses sometimes. To people who didn't really have a sense for what software costs. Because what people will do is, they'll look at the hourly rate, and they'll compare it to how much they make. Right? They'll go, "Wait a minute, that's what a lawyer makes!" Or something. It's not actually what a lawyer makes. But we would get this very visceral reaction to that. But by doing it weekly, where we've kind of smoothed all that out, then they can kind of approach it more like a product that they're buying. Kind of like, "Well, it comes in this many chunks, and okay, that makes sense." So that, I think, was always one of the benefits of fixed-bid for people. Fixed-bid in sales has always been nice, because you can just say, "Here it is, and that's your price." Although, it's 100,000 dollars, they were like, "Well, my budget's 150, so I could do that." Right? And with doing this weekly, although it's not quite there, it is a little bit like... The way we're doing it now is a little bit like fixed bid plus an extremely well-oiled change request process, basically. JAMON: Yeah, exactly. KEN: And that seems to solve both of those problems. Where it's like, they can look at that and instead of being some unknown number of hours, weeks seem like they're easier to kind of grapple with. And that's exactly what we want, right? I don't think we end up charging more, particularly. But it does come in these chunks that are easier to grapple with. They know what size the check are gonna be that they're writing next week because it's gonna be a certain cadence. It's not the surprise every time. It just seems to work better. Go ahead, Todd. TODD: People will pay extra money to remove the surprises happily. KEN: Yes, absolutely. TODD: I don't think our weekly is more money, but even if it were, they would be happier. It's so funny, what Ken said is they associate their salary with their hourly, or even if they take their salary and divide it by 40 and divide it by 52 or whatever, and they compare it to ours, and they think, "Wow, these people are getting paid a massive amount." Of course, they don't see all the other business stuff. There's actually no– KEN: They're not counting the overhead, they're not counting the things that they're not having to pay for. TODD: I'm not complaining at all, but it's just a fact of our business: we actually have fairly low margins for a business type. Our team is extremely expensive compared to other businesses, extremely. Not saying we overpay them, I'm not claiming that, it's just the nature of their jobs. JAMON: Yeah, and another aspect of this, and I realize we're going a little long here, but another aspect of this that we could talk about is that with the point system, it's not 100 points for each person, it's if we have three people working on it, the whole team needs to deliver 300 points. So they work together to divide up the work in such a way that maybe someone's doing 150, the other person's doing 50 but they're doing a lot of client communication. And allow them to divvy up the work in a way that makes the most sense to them. Where with the hourly bonus structure that we had before, that would actually hurt the person doing most of the communication with the client. And that was a problem. TODD: That's huge. And that was a decision we made. And because we chose that, meaning that we don't track individual contributions. I mean, technically we could probably figure it out based on Trello cards and that kind of stuff. But we don't track individual... It's team-oriented. So if it's three people, like Jamon said, it's 300 points. And we give them the flexibility to figure it out, how to be the best, most efficient to do those 300 points that they can. And I think that's worked out really well. It has some downsides. It is harder to keep metrics on individuals that way. JAMON: Yeah, a lot of what we do for that is to simply ask their teammates how it was to work with them, try to encourage them to be honest about their contributions and things. It's not a perfect system, but we are able to track individual contributions a little bit better, just through the perceptions of their teammates. TODD: I do it more efficiently, I get 'em all in one room and I say, "Out of all of you, who's the worst?" (laughter) And then I let 'em... It's kind of like that inspirational movie, Hunger Games? JAMON: The inspirational movie? TODD: Yeah, so, and it's quite efficient, and you get right to the meat of it, literally, sometimes, to the meat of it. JAMON: Literally. KEN: And what they say is, "You are, Dad, you are!" TODD: And I remind them once again, I'm not their father, that's Darth Vader. Fact. JAMON: There's a lot more we could talk about here on this topic, this is probably something we could revisit at a future... KEN: You may have noticed that we like to talk? Especially Todd. But, yeah... TODD: My words are all very small, so I need lots of them. KEN: We get very passionate about very dry things, sometimes. TODD: There's some things to be said, too, on the subject of billing... It's a touchy subject, because although you can say that clients can be difficult in certain ways in regarding to this, it's all... Assuming that the client isn't a jerk and they're just trying to squeeze a rock for as much blood as they can, and let's assume that's the case, and most times that is the case. From their perspective– KEN: Wait, you should be clear on what you're saying is the case. 'Cause otherwise, you mean... Most of the time, they are not trying to be jerks. That's what you're saying. TODD: Most of our clients– KEN: Okay, good. TODD: Most of our clients are really great, and they're showing up, and they're partnering with us, and we're both working towards the goal of making something awesome. So if they are being difficult in a certain way that we may complain about in the background, they always usually have a reason why. It's usually a miscommunication, it's just something that they're misunderstanding on their end. KEN: And like you said, presumably they're getting the software because they need it for some reason. Right? And it's a lot of money– TODD: It's scary! KEN: Yeah, it is scary! TODD: And the last thing they wanna hear is, I mean, if you're doing a bathroom, you don't want a contract to come over and say it's gonna be from 50 dollars to 50,000 dollars. Which may be a true statement, but you don't wanna hear that, that's horrible. JAMON: Well, one of the ways that we can mitigate that is if someone does have a fixed, like, hard-cap budget, which does happen and we understand when that is, then something else has to be flexible. And usually it's scope. We're not gonna compromise on quality. We wanna deliver really quality experience. But scope can be adjusted, and if a client is willing to work with us on scope, we can accommodate a tighter budget and still deliver a quality, but narrower scope, piece of software. TODD: That brings up something very interesting, Jamon. It is a trade-off between low-price and low-risk. So, if we crank up the risk, we can give a quote at a very, the lowest price possible, because it may change. "We think we could possibly do it at this price." The easier thing to do is have a much larger price that reduces risk, but they're almost guaranteed to pay a lot more. Some companies hate the first one. They'd much rather have a much bigger price that's reliable and low-risk. Other companies, especially if they're really lean, they would prefer the first one. And the problem from our perspective is, we don't know who's who. And it's hard to get them to tell us, or they may not even know. So when you choose to go down one of those paths, do we give them as lean as possible estimate but we know it's much more likely to change? Or do we give them a much larger estimate that reduced the risk? When you're doing that, you're kind of choosing your customer at that point, too. It's all very complicated.

Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Co-existentialism (holding your breadth)" [Old playlist: https://lastever.org/show/131106] Tim Roth, Eric Stoltz, Phoebe Cates - "People don't know what they want" - Bodies, Rest and Motion Amanda Nazario - "Please stay tuned now, I know you will love it" - Nazario Scenario on WFMU's GTDRadio 7/17/13 Amanda Nazario - "More on phone" - Nazario Scenario on WFMU's GTDRadio 11/6/13 W.G. Snuffy Walden - "My So-Called Life Theme" - My So-Called Life s.t. Amanda Nazario - "Buying a phone because of commercial" - Nazario Scenario on WFMU's GTDRadio 11/6/13 James Ford - "Not a lot of stations in the world (James Ford outro)" - WTJU Ken - "Here it comes" W.G. Snuffy Walden - "My So-Called Life Theme" - My So-Called Life s.t. [Loops] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Give the Drummer Radio live stream" Russell Brand - "Newsnight" - Russell Brand on BBC Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman [Calling for revolution. Don't bother voting] Adrien Brody - "How are you to imagine anything if the images are always provided for you?" - Detachment Adrien Brody - "Fight against assimilating dullness in our thought processes" - Detachment Adrien Brody - "To deliberately believe in lies while knowing they're false" - Detachment Bright Eyes - "An Attempt to Tip the Scales (reversed)" - Fevers And Mirrors Bright Eyes - "An Attempt to Tip the Scales" - Fevers And Mirrors Bee Gees - "More Than a Woman" [Layers] Jim O'Rourke - "Women Of the World" Ken - "Backwards introductions. If you forgot your own number, would anyone remind you?" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Beginnings come out of nowhere (Trust)" - Beginnings come out of nowhere: 8/21/13, show #468 [Samples & audio: https://lastever.org/show/130821] Phone call - "I'm on the road, I love this show, I love what you're doing. You're going in a good direction" W.G. Snuffy Walden - "My So-Called Life Theme" - My So-Called Life s.t. [Loops] Tim Roth - "What I want isn't out there, isn't in here" - Bodies, Rest and Motion Gary Jules - "Mad World" Mountain Goats - "New Monster Avenue" - Get Lonely Hal Hartley, Martin Donovan, Adrienne Shelly - "TV Deadens the Inner Core of my Being (excerpt)" - Trust Ken - "There are a lot of people I haven't remembered to call back" George Lucas - "Themes I've been fascinated with, a time in life when you have to leave, make transitional change, brave enough to go one step beyond, into something you're not experienced with" - American Graffiti documentary Charlie Kaufman - "Lecture" - Screenwriters Lecture Highlights Jeff Daniels, Molly Price - "There used to be more time, before I had to work" - Chasing Sleep [There's not enough time in the day (not as much as there used to be). Poetry just doesn't pay] Albert Brooks - "Television is everything to 10-year old, it's like heroin, I never wanted to watch, my parents made me, and Ii got hooked" - Defending Your Life Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Sense of Ongoing Everness" - Sense of Ongoing Everness: 10/30/13, show #481 [(when it gets dark we'll go home) With Lou Reed's Street Hassle. Samples & audio: https://lastever.org/show/131030] Lou Reed - "Perfect Day" - Transformer Ken - "Disharmonious. Think of things today that you want to say tomorrow" Alessio Rastani - "Trader on market crashing, dreams of another recession" - BBC, Dec. 2012 Al Lewis & phone caller - "At least the Mafia had class" - Grandpa vs. Monroe on WBAI [Thanks to Rico for tape] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "I Believe (our favorite children)" - I Believe (our favorite children): 9/18/13, show #473 [With True Romance. Samples & audio: https://lastever.org/show/130918] R.E.M. - "I Believe" - Lifes Rich Pageant Al Lewis - "Wake up, America" - Grandpa vs. Monroe on WBAI [Thanks to Rico for tape] Trevor Timm, Parker Higgins - "Pwn the Drones: A Survey of UAV Hacks and Exploits" - HOPE Number Nine, July 13-15, 2012 President George W. Bush - "President's Address to the Nation - September 13, 2007" Interview - "Bar bans Google glass video recording" Steve Bierfeldt - "TSA Interrogation" - Passenger detained by TSA for carrying cash Carter Thornton - "Raid on chicken farmer-Maricopa County, AZ notice reading" - Live from Castello Plan 6/25/12 [From Airborne Event w/Dan Bodah 6/25/12 WFMU] Russell Brand - "Profit is a filthy word" - Russell Brand on BBC Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman Phone call - "It's hard not to be an existentialist" Alan Watts - "Wisdom of the Mountains!" Ken - "What if that was the point" W.G. Snuffy Walden - "My So-Called Life Theme" - My So-Called Life s.t. [Loops] Adrien Brody - "How are you to imagine anything if the images are always provided for you?" - Detachment https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/77185

Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Co-existentialism (holding your breadth)" [Old playlist: http://lastever.org/show/131106] Tim Roth, Eric Stoltz, Phoebe Cates - "People don't know what they want" - Bodies, Rest and Motion Amanda Nazario - "Please stay tuned now, I know you will love it" - Nazario Scenario on WFMU's GTDRadio 7/17/13 Amanda Nazario - "More on phone" - Nazario Scenario on WFMU's GTDRadio 11/6/13 W.G. Snuffy Walden - "My So-Called Life Theme" - My So-Called Life s.t. Amanda Nazario - "Buying a phone because of commercial" - Nazario Scenario on WFMU's GTDRadio 11/6/13 James Ford - "Not a lot of stations in the world (James Ford outro)" - WTJU Ken - "Here it comes" W.G. Snuffy Walden - "My So-Called Life Theme" - My So-Called Life s.t. [Loops] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Give the Drummer Radio live stream" Russell Brand - "Newsnight" - Russell Brand on BBC Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman [Calling for revolution. Don't bother voting] Adrien Brody - "How are you to imagine anything if the images are always provided for you?" - Detachment Adrien Brody - "Fight against assimilating dullness in our thought processes" - Detachment Adrien Brody - "To deliberately believe in lies while knowing they're false" - Detachment Bright Eyes - "An Attempt to Tip the Scales (reversed)" - Fevers And Mirrors Bright Eyes - "An Attempt to Tip the Scales" - Fevers And Mirrors Bee Gees - "More Than a Woman" [Layers] Jim O'Rourke - "Women Of the World" Ken - "Backwards introductions. If you forgot your own number, would anyone remind you?" Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Beginnings come out of nowhere (Trust)" - Beginnings come out of nowhere: 8/21/13, show #468 [Samples & audio: http://lastever.org/show/130821] Phone call - "I'm on the road, I love this show, I love what you're doing. You're going in a good direction" W.G. Snuffy Walden - "My So-Called Life Theme" - My So-Called Life s.t. [Loops] Tim Roth - "What I want isn't out there, isn't in here" - Bodies, Rest and Motion Gary Jules - "Mad World" Mountain Goats - "New Monster Avenue" - Get Lonely Hal Hartley, Martin Donovan, Adrienne Shelly - "TV Deadens the Inner Core of my Being (excerpt)" - Trust Ken - "There are a lot of people I haven't remembered to call back" George Lucas - "Themes I've been fascinated with, a time in life when you have to leave, make transitional change, brave enough to go one step beyond, into something you're not experienced with" - American Graffiti documentary Charlie Kaufman - "Lecture" - Screenwriters Lecture Highlights Jeff Daniels, Molly Price - "There used to be more time, before I had to work" - Chasing Sleep [There's not enough time in the day (not as much as there used to be). Poetry just doesn't pay] Albert Brooks - "Television is everything to 10-year old, it's like heroin, I never wanted to watch, my parents made me, and Ii got hooked" - Defending Your Life Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "Sense of Ongoing Everness" - Sense of Ongoing Everness: 10/30/13, show #481 [(when it gets dark we'll go home) With Lou Reed's Street Hassle. Samples & audio: http://lastever.org/show/131030] Lou Reed - "Perfect Day" - Transformer Ken - "Disharmonious. Think of things today that you want to say tomorrow" Alessio Rastani - "Trader on market crashing, dreams of another recession" - BBC, Dec. 2012 Al Lewis & phone caller - "At least the Mafia had class" - Grandpa vs. Monroe on WBAI [Thanks to Rico for tape] Ken's Last Ever Radio Extravaganza - "I Believe (our favorite children)" - I Believe (our favorite children): 9/18/13, show #473 [With True Romance. Samples & audio: http://lastever.org/show/130918] R.E.M. - "I Believe" - Lifes Rich Pageant Al Lewis - "Wake up, America" - Grandpa vs. Monroe on WBAI [Thanks to Rico for tape] Trevor Timm, Parker Higgins - "Pwn the Drones: A Survey of UAV Hacks and Exploits" - HOPE Number Nine, July 13-15, 2012 President George W. Bush - "President's Address to the Nation - September 13, 2007" Interview - "Bar bans Google glass video recording" Steve Bierfeldt - "TSA Interrogation" - Passenger detained by TSA for carrying cash Carter Thornton - "Raid on chicken farmer-Maricopa County, AZ notice reading" - Live from Castello Plan 6/25/12 [From Airborne Event w/Dan Bodah 6/25/12 WFMU] Russell Brand - "Profit is a filthy word" - Russell Brand on BBC Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman Phone call - "It's hard not to be an existentialist" Alan Watts - "Wisdom of the Mountains!" Ken - "What if that was the point" W.G. Snuffy Walden - "My So-Called Life Theme" - My So-Called Life s.t. [Loops] Adrien Brody - "How are you to imagine anything if the images are always provided for you?" - Detachment http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/77185

In episode 054 of The Civil Engineering Podcast, Chris Knutson interviews Ken Adams, an expert in the world of contract drafting on how to master the language to create clearer engineering contracts. Here are some of the questions Chris asked Ken: What do you consider is the essence of a contract? How do you suggest that […] The post TCEP 054: How to Master the Language for Clearer Engineering Contracts appeared first on Engineering Management Institute.