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Episode 38: Tips for Working Together at Tactial, Triage and TransportA discussion about tips and tricks at the tactical, triage and transport location.Bill Godfrey:Welcome to the Active Shooter Incident Management podcast. My name is Bill Godfrey, your host of the podcast. Today's topic, we are going to be talking about some tips and tricks for working together at the tactical, triage, and transport location, which is an interesting challenge. We've got quite a laundry list of things I think we're going to be able to go through here today.We have with us three of the instructors from C3 Pathways, Ken Lamb, on the law enforcement side. Ken, good to have you back in the house.Ken Lamb:Yes, sir. Happy to be here.Bill Godfrey:All right. And we've got our world traveler, Bruce Scott, from the fire EMS side, like myself. Bruce, good to have you back in town.Bruce Scott:Thanks a lot, Bill. Glad to be here.Bill Godfrey:And we have Pete Kelting from the law enforcement side. Peter, good to have you back.Pete Kelting:Great to be here, Bill. Thank you.Bill Godfrey:All right. So today's topic. We're going to be talking about tactical, triage and transport, and some tips and tricks on how to make that more effective, more efficient, work together. Basically take some of the friction out.So I think, before we get too far into this, we probably ought to just take a minute and make sure that everybody understands. When we talk about tactical, triage, and transport, what those functions do. What's the main thing that happens at those locations before we start talking about how to work better?Pete, tell me a little bit from the law enforcement perspective, what are the key things that the tactical group supervisor needs to be doing on the law enforcement side to execute their mission?Pete Kelting:Yeah. When the tactical supervisor gets on scene, they've got to get that situational awareness. So everything has been going on. They may have been listening to the calls, they're responding, but when they plant the flag where they're going to be, they need to get that situational awareness. They need to talk with the contact teams and see what's going on, determine casualties, initial casualty count from the law enforcement side. They've got to see what additional resources need to support those. Either a solo officer response, or the contact team is down there working. And then they need to request for the fire department to come join them at that location. That's how that tactical, triage, and transport start to form up, and to where the communications can happen immediately, to support what's going on downrange.Bill Godfrey:So that tactical position, Pete, on the law enforcement side, primarily responsible for making the security picture better in the downrange, everything in the hot and the warm zone, they're trying to make that better.Pete Kelting:Absolutely. Putting the resources downrange that need to engage the threat that's taken place. And then, begin to look at the perimeters and the security cordons, to start to make the other resources available to come downrange. But that tactical supervisor has to request that fire department resource to come to set up triage and transport next to them, to start moving into what is next.Bill Godfrey:All right. Perfect segue. Bruce, give us a quick rundown. What are the responsibilities of triage and transport group supervisors at this forward area where tactical, triage, and transport are working together?Bruce Scott:Right. So I was standing next to Pete. Pete is my tactical group supervisor. He's got his folks down there doing security work. He's telling me, or I'm listening to what he's saying, or hearing on the radio, basically, what the security image looks like at that particular point in time, as well as some initial patient counts. As his contact teams are moving downrange, and given those, some initial patient counts, myself, as triage, gives me an idea of how many rescue task force I'm going to need. And if I'm the transport group supervisor, how many transport units I'm going to need. So it allows me to start painting my resource picture right off the bat, just because I'm co-located with Pete, and we haven't even sent anybody downrange yet, but we're already starting to go to work.Bill Godfrey:All right. Fantastic. I think that's a perfect segue into us talking about the first issue, which is co-locating together. So Ken, why don't you lead us off, talking about that?Ken Lamb:Right. In law enforcement, we've recognized that we have to have both triage and transport working together with tactical to ensure that we are beating that clock, and that we are getting those impacted individuals to the hospital as soon as possible. The only way we can do that, is if we are tied at the hip with both triage and transport. And I hate to be over-simplistic, but teamwork makes a dream work. So if we can be tied together with those individuals, and we can be sharing that information as it's coming in, and not have to worry about relaying it over a radio that's probably already being tied up, or sending a runner, obviously that would equal out in us to having more efficient response.Now what's critical, as far as being a policeman in the tactical position is, identifying that warm zone, where we can link up with those fire/rescue personnel, and ensuring that we have adequate security measures in place. And preferably a position of cover, whether it be a building, or a fire engine, or some solid cover, so that we're giving our fire rescue partners the warm and fuzzy, that, hey, you can link up here with me, and this is a safe approach.Because understandably, some fire/rescue personnel, this could be a new concept, or they could be hesitant to approach that warm zone area. And they want to know that their security is taken care of, so we're either providing that officer to provide security, or we're identifying a clearly identifiable location for that link up, to then work that a tactical, triage, and transport function, so that we can be more efficient and effective in getting those individuals the medical care, they need.Bill Godfrey:Interesting insight. Bruce, what are your thoughts? What are the key reasons that you see that tactical, triage, and transport need to be shoulder to shoulder, working together?Bruce Scott:Well, first off, I think Ken brought up a really great point, and the fact is that number one, I have to feel secure that I can get my fire/EMS folks to fill those two group supervisor positions, the tactical and the transport group supervisor, co-located with the triage and transport group supervisors, co-located with the tactical group supervisor. I need to know that I can get them there in a relatively safe place.But most importantly, as a triage group supervisor, my primary role is to get my RTFs downrange, and I can not do that until my tactical group supervisor tells me that that warm zone has been established, where they're going to be able to go work. And as Ken alluded to, if he has to tell me that on the radio, we get, radio traffic gets lost, we get lost in that... We're trying to beat that clock, and time is hugely important. Then if, he's standing right next to me and says, "Hey, Bruce, the casualty collections point is set up in the cafeteria. It's a warm zone. We're ready for RTFs to get down there." I'm very sure at that point, that he has set enough security in place for my folks to get down there and work.So starting off, that's the number one goal. If I'm going to try to get my folks downrange, the guy that knows that information is standing right beside me, and he can give it to me.Bill Godfrey:Pete, what are your thoughts on it?Pete Kelting:I think exactly what the two of them were talking about is extremely important to make it efficient, and what we have to do to make that happen is training. Training and relationships. If we don't train that, then the fire department, our fire friends are going to respond the way they've always responded, either to the staging or the command post. And we're going to lose that communication, tied at the hip, as Ken was referring to. So, relationships and training and interoperability. And if there's a fallback from that, can the fire department in that jurisdiction hop up on the law enforcement channel? Since 911, our inter-operability is supposed to be to that extent friendly, in that sense, in delegation of authority to operate across all channels. And if you train with that, and you're able to hop up on the channel, if you didn't happen to co-locate, you can at least still get the information from being on that particular tactical channel from the FD side.Bill Godfrey:Yeah. I think you guys are all hitting right on it. From my point of view, it's at a very basic level. We need each other to do the job. Law enforcement needs the medical piece of this, and the medical needs the security piece of this. And it takes all of us working together as a unified team, as one team, to make that happen. I think it's a real base level there.Okay. So we've got tactical, triage, and transport co-located together at a location where they're able to work together face to face. Hopefully, that's a safe location, that the fire department or EMS were able to come up to, if not, they got to get an escort. I think Ken mentioned that. They got to get some security to bring them up. But picking that location... I don't know, Ken, Pete, before we leave that, let's talk a little bit about that for a second, for the location. What are the kinds of decision-making things that should go through the mind of the fifth man? As they're getting ready to assume that position, how are they going to pick their location? What's the split-second decisions that are running through your head, on how to pick a good spot?Ken Lamb:Oh wow, yeah. I think it's really critical to understand that the fifth man doesn't necessarily have to be a supervisor. I believe in the law enforcement community, we could do a lot of work in educating our line level officers to understand what the fifth man is, and the responsibility in finding this location, so that they could stand up the tactical position, and knowing that. You have to have a good situational awareness of what is going on in the target location, but also, you can be detached so that you can act as that funnel. So when resources are coming to you, your attention doesn't have to be directed on a target location. You can take your attention off of it in a secure area and direct those resources to whatever their task and their assignment is.So in my mind, when I think of what would be a perfect location, it would be a building that was between you, or some sort of structure that was between you and the target location. And if I couldn't find a building, then that's, I think would be a great time to get a large vehicle. If you had a tactical vehicle, you had the accessibility to that on scene. You could utilize that. You could also utilize a fire engine. Something that that could provide a decent amount of cover, so not only are you covered from the potential subject that's at large, but you could also provide cover for all those resources that would be meeting you at that location to receive their assignment.Bruce Scott:I think it's really important, Bill, that we have an understanding of the fire department culture. Right? So for years, and years, and years, we've heard that we're not going to put our folks in harm's way until the law enforcement tells me it's safe. And having that understanding that we've built those relationships, as Pete has alluded to, and that when they're ready for my folks to move up as the triage and transport group supervisors, that they've actually taken that into consideration.And again, I think Pete alluded to it earlier is, the only way to do that is to train together, plan together, train together and build those relationships so we feel comfortable in that. I have a feeling that the natural pushback around the country is, if that fifth man, or tactical group supervisor, is set up in a too hot zone, we are going to drag our feet, putting our folks up there, and we got to really work through that. So that the training needs to happen on the law enforcement side to say, when I establish that tactical group supervisor position, I have to take into account, pretty soon, there's going to be a triage and transport group supervisor with me, and I need to factor that into my location planning.It is basically, the trust that I alluded to earlier, as Bruce was saying. The more we train the more similar faces see each other, and start to rely upon each other's trust. If Bruce says to me, "Hey, come with me and dress out. I can take you through this burning building." I'm going to trust in that he can get me through this burning building, and I'm going to come out with no problems. No flames and suit and scorches on me.The same thing with us, tactical. If we train enough, and we pick the locations that provide that warm and fuzzy feeling, as Ken's talking about, then when it comes to real world, there's no hesitation that the tactical, the triage, and the transport are going to end up locating next to each other and working efficiently.Bill Godfrey:Fantastic. So Bruce, Pete said a little bit earlier, he talked about the importance of getting situational awareness for the tactical group supervisor. When triage and transport show up, how does that start? You're part of the team. You and I are part of the team. You're triage, your transport. You need to get your information first. What are you looking for? What does that sound like?Bruce Scott:I got to tell you, one of the first things I'm going to ask Pete is, have you got any kind of initial casualty count at this point? I want to know that information pretty quick. And secondly is, what is your, the security posture, as far as where the casualty collection point is going to be? Where they're moving these folks to, and what that security posture looks like. So that I can begin planning accordingly from the triage group supervisor position, to be able to get my rescue task forces into that warm zone, that casualty collection point, and they can start doing their work. So the very first conversation that Pete and I are going to have is number one, what does your initial casualty count look like? And number two, what's our security posture downrange?Bill Godfrey:You mentioned the zones, and I think that's a really interesting area to talk about. Something that comes up frequently in our training is, this cultural myth within the fire and EMS service, that the line between the hot zone and the warm zone is like, the line of death. This side of the line, you die, this side of the line, you're fine. Except it's not that clear cut at all. There's a lot of gray, a lot of shades. I often say it looks more like an amoeba than a bunch of circles around each other. Ken, what are some of the things that occur in trying to define what is hot, what is warm?Ken Lamb:Right. As a matter of defining both the hot and warm zone, the hot zone, we want to make sure we're crystal clear on where it's located, because it you're assuming that you're under a direct threat, so that a suspect could potentially impact you, when you enter in the hot zone.Now, what I personally like to do is, point out clear identifiable marks of interest within the location to say, once you pass that light pole, or once you pass that building, you are now entering the hot zone, or that building is the warm zone. Because we all understand where the building is located, everyone. It's a common location language, okay, that building. And it's a little easier to say, "Well, the parking lot.", are easier than identifying say, the parking lot is the hot zone. The parking lot can mean one thing to one person, and another thing to another, to a second person.So when we identify it, and in my opinion, we want to be clear and specific on the point that we're identifying as that line of demarcation between the hot and warm zone, so that it has a common understanding, and everyone is crystal clear, as far as when I'm leaving the warm zone and I'm entering the hot zone, I have now stepped into a different level of security, where I need to have my head on a swivel and ensure that I'm covering all potential advantage points that the suspect may have access to.Bruce Scott:Hey, Bill, I think it's important that we also mention that there are no absolutes in this business. Right? So if Ken or Pete roll up and go, hey, their initial description of the incidence is, we're making the entire campus a hot zone, and you have to understand, that's just that moment in time. It is not an absolute that's going to be the entire time. As they gain situational awareness, as they get their contact teams downrange and start beginning to get a better picture on what's going on, those zones may very well change minute to minute, and we just have to be prepared to adapt. I think we've talked about it on the fireside before, when we talk about zones, they're not concentric circles. That's the way we grew up in the hazard materials world. That's what you and I grew up, that they're concentric circles.But we have to understand that that situation is evolving at all times. Warm may move, and hot may move, and we just have to be prepared to adapt.Pete Kelting:And like Ken said, if I'm the tactical command and Bruce rolls up as triage, I'm going to clearly paint that picture to him and say, "Hey, listen, this is what's been going on. This is where our threat is. We still have an active shooter in this area, but we've got plenty of contact teams engaging that active shooter. And we also have additional contact teams of trailer teams, setting up safety cordons. And we have got to get RTFs working downrange right here." Because the first CCP, and the first request for RTFs, come from the law enforcement side, and we have to be crystal clear with each other, that we feel that we can make that happen.And so, if we paint that picture from the information coming downrange, and again, you've heard me say this before, that information coming downrange comes from folks that take charge downrange, and know what it means to pass that information up, for the bosses above them to start making those decisions. And so when that happens, Bruce feels, "Okay, we can get those RTFs down there." But remember, RTFs are comprised with law and fire for a reason. We're doing the best we can to delineate between hot and warm. But even though we're operating in a warm, at any given time, it could turn hot again. That's where that training into, rescue task forces recognize that, and that there's no hesitation.Bill Godfrey:There are no absolutes.Ken Lamb:And typically, I'm just kind of thinking this as we talk about it, we always think about things, at least in my point of view, as daytime. But these can happen at night, and that adds an additional complexity. So how are we identifying these areas at night? And that's where I think, if you have these thoughts and you do these training with your partners, then you discuss the usage of a chem light, so that you can identify, well, this is the difference between the hot zone and the cold zone. So that it's, again, it's crystal clear to the fire/rescue personnel that they have security measures in place, and they're comfortable before they move downrange to start providing that rescue.Bill Godfrey:So let me see if I can summarize this a little bit. So, zones are fuzzy at best. They're not absolutes. Bruce, I think you said that very eloquently. They're not absolutes. But they give us a pretty good sense of where we can and can't work, or where we should or shouldn't work. And we have to have a little faith and trust in each other, which hopefully has been built with some relationships and some joint training, to know that a law enforcement officer who's downrange, who understands darn good and well, what it means to be asking for an unarmed paramedic to come downrange to help. When they say, "I'm ready for the medics.", send them. That we can take that, and have some faith and some trust in it, that we can go execute that. Is that fair?Ken Lamb:Absolutely.Bruce Scott:I think it's fair. And the only thing you have to overcome is that fire department supervisor saying, "Is the bad guy in custody? Is the bad guy down? Is there absolutely no threat to my folks?" That's what we have to overcome.Bill Godfrey:Yeah. And that's a cultural challenge in some ways. Okay. So let's talk about sharing information at your work site there. So tactical triage and transportive got a location. They are shoulder to shoulder. Tacticals work in the law enforcement channel. Triage and transport, of course, work in the medical channel. Tactical's running the contact teams, who hopefully have selected a casualty collection point and begun moving some of the casualties, if not all of them. Triage has worked in the medical channel, trying to get those rescue task forces pushed forward. What are the kinds of information that needs to be shared back and forth between them, between each other face to face, in order for them to do their jobs? Pete?Pete Kelting:Yeah, I think we've talked about that, and just as we've been discussing all the other items is again, the most common thing is painting the picture, and what security measures we have in place, when Bruce rolls up, that he's able to glean that from me.Now, a couple of things working in any position is, do we have enough staffing there? So tactical command, I would say, as quickly as you can to get an assistant, a scribe, or a deputy, or somebody that's there to take notes of what you're doing. And then if you're busy on the radio, when Bruce rolls up, that person can brief Bruce up. Or as you see in our curriculum, we have the tactical T in the transport, triage T. Those are designed so that we can document the information that's coming up to the tactical command, and share that quickly, either by the FD representative, just looking at the command board, and seeing what's taken place, and starting to make decisions. Or having that ability again, to have that briefing that sides up to what's going on downrange.Ken Lamb:I think an excellent point that Pete mentioned is, the usage of a board to display information, and using the vehicle in displaying that information, so that when fire personnel, or triage, or transport come up, they have a place to go, a one stop shop, of what has occurred and what the objectives are, so that they get the warm and fuzzy about what you're trying to accomplish. And even moreso is, I think, on the law side, we forget to brief up the security for the rescue task force. Because we just assume the rescue task force is working for triage and transport, so they got it. No, no. We need to make sure they understand what the responsibility is, and what we're trying to accomplish.Bill Godfrey:Bruce, from your point of view on the triage and transport side, what are the kinds of things that you're hearing and seeing that need to be shared back with tactical?Bruce Scott:Obviously, as my rescue task forces are downrange, and they start identifying maybe a better, or an ambulance exchange point, or what the true patient count is. And then we say this, "Hey, outside the cafeteria is going to be our ambulance exchange point. Hey Pete, can we make sure that we have enough security at that AP? That's the AP that works best for RTFs, or downrange. And this is our current patient count." And giving him that information, and then he certainly would share with me when he has enough security there, so that I can get my ambulances downrange, my transport units downrange, and get those folks off the scene, and to the hospital. And the faster that happens, again, we're trying to shave those seconds off the clock.And again, "Hey, Pete, ambulance change point's going to be outside the cafeteria. You good with that?" Right? And if he is good with that, "Pete, can you make sure we have enough security there, so I can start bringing my ambulances downrange? Hey, Pete, what's the best way for my ambulances to get there? Are you good with that, me bringing them down Avenue A?" Right? So those are the conversations that Pete and I have to have. Then when he says, "Yes, Bruce, security is there." Good. Ambulance one, or rescue 16, whatever, it is, we're ready for you. Then we can call staging, and get those ambulances out of the staging and to the ambulance exchange point.Pete Kelting:And it even starts, Bill, with the first request for CCP location from the contact teams downrange, when Bruce arrives. That I'm able to tell him, "Hey, this is our first location, the CCP, our contact teams downrange." It felt that it's accessible, it's defensible. They're able to move most of the casualties there. There may be a need to leapfrog from room to room, or move into the structure a little bit more, but, that there's a good feeling that that first CCP is set up, so when Bruce decides to send that RTF downrange, that that can take place.And then, just adding on the AEP, the amble exchange point. You hear us a lot of times coaching up folks in the training that resource is limited sometimes. So, overwatch, using high ground and folks to be able to look at that long road of ingress in with RTFs moving downrange, or ambulances moving downrange, to either CCP or AP, can provide again, an additional layer of warm and fuzzy feeling, that Ken was talking about. So that our fire folks that are working with us, trust us that we're bringing their folks in safely.Bill Godfrey:So lot of information there. Let's talk a little bit about the AP for a second, and the overwatch issue. You mentioned training. One of the things that we see pretty commonly is, as soon as we start getting ready to transport patients, is the transport group supervisor wants to push 15 ambulances up to the ambulance exchange point, which is not a good idea. Ken, talk a little bit about some of the security challenges that you face to secure an image exchange point, when not one or two ambulances show up, but when four or five show up.Ken Lamb:Yeah. Well, you're expanding your footprint, which is requiring additional resources. And the additional resources you get, you obviously need to make sure they're briefed on what they're trying to accomplish. They have different angles they're trying to cover, which complicates their job. Particularly, if the suspect is still outstanding. Right? I think the easy response is, if the suspect has been neutralized. But the more complex response is, a suspect is outstanding, and we've identified and established this warm zone to move in, and established the ambulance exchange point. When we take the latter situation, we need to ensure that we're moving those ambulances up, and in a manner that we can provide security for. And again, that's a detailed conversation that needs to take place between tactical, as well as transport and triage, to say, "This is the amount of ambulances that I can support with my security downrange." And if you're expecting to move more ambulances up, well, then I need some additional time, and work with staging to get some resources up here to provide an expanded security perimeter.Bruce Scott:Yeah. And I'd like to jump in here if I can Bill, because if we're having that conversation with our tactical group supervisor, and I'm the transport group supervisor, and he's letting me know, or he or she are letting me know, that we are very limited, we do have some security in place, but it's not absolute. I'm not going to send 15 ambulances. Transport to staging. One ambulance to the ambulance exchange point. When they're in route to the hospital, go ahead and start the second ambulance. Right? Go ahead and delegate that to your staging manager, let them get downrange, with a complete understanding that ambulance, there's nothing but big targets. Right?And again, it sounds like I'm saying the same thing over and over again, there are no absolutes, right? We're going to bring them into that warm zone where that ambulance exchange point is, get them off, bring another one in. Limit our exposure with our folks and not stack 15 ambulances at the ambulance exchange point.Pete Kelting:You've heard us coach up before Bill, in the sense of also contact teams downrange knowing that. What's their task and purpose? If they're done with finding the bad actor, and they're moving into other things, but they talk back to tactical and say, "Hey, we've got a couple of contact teams that can be repurposed." That's information for the tactical officer to know, because we struggle sometimes where we probably need to bubble out from downrange to put resources on ambulance exchange points, and try to hustle up contact teams, or trailer teams, to come in.So, it's again about painting that picture, and situational awareness. You look at Pulse. Obviously, they had the hospital right down the road. But even look at Las Vegas, that you've got to get a lot of ambulances down to red patients that need to be transported, and that frequency and volume is going to go quick. And so we have to be prepared for that, to be able to protect that ingress of ambulances going down. But then again, like Ken said, not to overload it and increase our footprint before we're ready for it.Bill Godfrey:Pete, I completely agree with you, and I think it's probably important to remind everybody that the whole reason that we're trying to do this ambulance exchange point, as opposed to just shuttling patients away from the impacted site to a safe area, quote, unquote, safe area, where we can load ambulances in a cold zone. It's not that you can't do that, it's just slow. If you're-Bruce Scott:Kind of exhausting.Bill Godfrey:And exhausting, yeah. If you want to save lives, and everybody who gets in this business, they want to save lives. If you want to save lives, then you got to take minutes off the clock. You have to save time. And so these things are part of the process that's just necessary to get to taking that time off the clock. I think these are all critical elements.Let's go around the table and see. I'd like to hear your number one tip that you, when you're coaching for tactical, triage, and transport, what's the tip that you give the most often? What's the thing that comes up the most?Ken Lamb:Get a scribe, and someone to operate the radio. Because there is so much going on, and you're trying. If you're doing it right, in my opinion, you're thinking strategy to avoid a blue on blue, particularly on some of the larger structures, and it just takes time to think it through. And it's difficult to think through these concepts and strategies if you're constantly answering the radio and trying to write down notes. So I know it's a really simple trick, but in my experience, you're never short resources. You're going to have people that are going to come to you and say, "What can I do? Where do you need me?" And in those cases, if you've recognized that we're addressing the priority, and we're addressing the active threat, and we have resources that are also addressing rescue, then start grabbing individuals to assist you in the radio operation, as well as writing down information.Bill Godfrey:I think that's great. Bruce, what's on your list?Bruce Scott:My number one thing is talk to your tactical group supervisor. If I'm the triage group supervisor, and I'm ready to move my resources, or I'm anticipating what my resources are going to be doing downrange, I don't know how many times in these trainings we've heard, "Well, I'm ready for my rescue task force." I'm like, "Oh, have you talked to your tactical group supervisor? Do they have a casualty collection point? Is it warm?" Have those communications. Don't be shy. If you have a question or information, turn to the person that has the best picture of what's going on downrange. Don't work in a bubble. Don't work in a silo. Reach over and talk to your tactical group supervisor, get that information from them, and then make the decision based on that information.Bill Godfrey:Pete, how about you?Pete Kelting:I think mine is, really putting a priority on identifying and delineating that warm zone from the hot zone. Because you really don't have an idea how long that hot zone, whatever size it's going to be, where the bad actor is going to be, is going to go on. It could be a barricaded situation and that hot zone's going to be there. So that priority of really not waiting to get that warm zone identified and secured up with the security forces and cordons done, to get those RTFs downrange. You have to get the RTFs downrange.Bill Godfrey:I think mine would probably be, and I think this is true for triage, transport, and for tactical. Don't get hung up on what the casualty numbers were 10 minutes ago, or the colors, or the numbers of colors. Don't get hung up on that. Because they're never going to match. They're not going to add up, so don't get wrapped around the axle. Focus on what is left. Triage to RTF one. What do you have left at your location? And if you're working more than one casualty collection point, triage to RTF, whichever, at the other casualty collection point. What do you guys have left? And just focus on what's left.One of the most common issues I see is, we tend to lock on to those early numbers. Then, if they don't add up 20 minutes later, then something's wrong, and it's not. You got, greens have become yellows, yellows have become reds, reds have become black tags. You have black tags that were initially labeled as reds, that were never really reds. I mean, the numbers are just going to be a moving target. So I think that's mine. Everybody got enough for another one?Ken Lamb:I do.Bill Godfrey:Go around again?Ken Lamb:Absolutely.Bill Godfrey:All right, Ken, hit it.Ken Lamb:I think in the tactical position, because you have so much that's going on, it's very easy to lose the concept of managing your resources downrange. And oftentimes, these contact teams are mixed resources and they vary in experience, and you could... I work on a midnight watch. I could have a contact team full of one month probation officers. So they need my leadership and guidance as far as what to do next. They understand the basic concept of stop the killing, stop the dying, but they also need to know, do you have security in place? Do you have an immediate action plan? Are you providing medical?And I need to be listening on the radio, or have someone who's assisting me, listen on the radio, to ensure that they're thinking about some of those contingencies, and they're planning on addressing the contingencies, if they come up, so that they can be more efficient in their response. Because if we've learned anything in these situations, you cannot be stuck in concrete. And your job is not done when the threat is eliminated, there are more tasks that need to be completed.Bill Godfrey:Yeah, that's a great one. Bruce, how about you? You got another one?Bruce Scott:Yeah. It's going to come back to that same thing, communication. Right now, as a triage group supervisor, if I'm starved for information, who do I get that from? Whether it's my RTFs downrange. Right? Give me that information. What's my viable patient count now? Right? So I'm going to be starved for information so I can make decisions. So consistently, and if you come back a third time, I'm probably say something very similar, because communication is where we seem to fail just about every time. And people think we fail because our radios don't work, it's because we don't turn to each other and have a conversation about what our needs are, what we're trying to accomplish. And we're all working, rowing the boat in the same direction, if you will. And so much of that could be solved if we just learn to communicate with each other.Bill Godfrey:Pete, how about you? You got another one?Pete Kelting:Yeah. Kind of like Bruce, I was going to say, delineate between the hot and warm zone, because it's that important. But reassess, constantly reassess your strategy. We say on the gun range, "Did it hit, did it work?" If it's not hitting, not working, then we need to change our strategy. So we've got to constantly reassess. There's going to be more than one CCP in a lot of these incidents, there's going to be potentially more than one AEP. So as Ken alluded to, the footprint's going to expand, sometimes out of our control, and we've got to reassess, be flexible, and be adaptive at the tactical command.Bill Godfrey:I'm not going to torture you guys, come around another pass. But I think my last one would be, we all have to work together and communicate together, but it's important for us to stay in our lane and remember what our role is. What I'm specifically thinking about is, before triage and transport, get to the tactical group supervisor position. Then tactical owns all of it. Their own in the contact teams, their own in the security, their own in the medical. They're trying to get patient information, and numbers, and all of that kind of stuff. And it's very overwhelming. My job when I get there as the triage group supervisor, once I get briefed up, should be to take all of that off of the plate of the tactical group supervisor, and frankly, the contact teams downrange.Once we get stood up on the fire/EMS side, we should be managing that medical piece. It shouldn't be necessary after we've stood up, to continue to have medical information being transmitted, and taking up space on the law enforcement channel. We should be taking that off of their plate. That's our responsibility. And it does require a little bit of shifting gears, but I think it's important, because in the beginning, tactical has a whole lot on their plate. There's a lot going on and our job should be, not just to do our job, but to help them out. And if I execute my job by staying in my lane and keeping tactical from having to mess with that other stuff, then I've helped.Bruce Scott:The alibi I would have to that though, Bill, is the beauty of triage, transport, and tactical all standing together. If I can't get it, if I'm on an RTF and I cannot get my message to the triage group supervisor, my law enforcement element that's with me, can certainly tell that tactical guy, and he can lean over and say, "Hey, Bruce, this is what we're hearing from RTF one."Bill Godfrey:Absolutely. And we have seen that time and time again. And of course it goes the other way as well.Bruce Scott:Yeah.Bill Godfrey:If triage can't get ahold of an RTF, "Hey tactical, can you get ahold of this RTF and tell him to answer the radio?"Bruce Scott:Yeah.Bill Godfrey:And tactical will call down to the law enforcement element on RTF three and go, "Hey, triage has been calling you. Get your medical guys to answer the radio.Bruce Scott:Absolutely.Bill Godfrey:Yeah.Pete Kelting:Bill, if I can add as a summary, in a sense, from a law enforcement profession to fire side profession is that, me as a tactical commander, I want to be successful in the sense of putting the bad guy down, or contain the bad guy, or winning on my side. But I also have to remember that, Bruce coming in as a triage or a transport, he wants to be successful. He has his goals to be successful. We all have our bosses to be successful too, and I have to show and share as much information to make him successful at that tactical man as he does back to us. So that's the important thing, knowing the success of both of us is what is important.Bill Godfrey:Pete, I think that's a fantastic way to summarize it and wrap it up, so we will leave that one there.Gentlemen, thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed this. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, please do so. Click the subscribe button on your device, or wherever you consume them. If you have any suggestions or questions for us for future podcasts, please email those to us at info@c3pathways.com. Again, that's info@c3pathways.com.Also, I'd like to say a special thanks to our producer, Karla Torres, for doing a great job editing these things. We do not always get these. We are not the one cut wonders, and she does a fantastic job putting these things together for us. Until next time, stay safe.

Retro Encounter's miniseries on Final Fantasy XIV concludes this week with an episode all about Shadowbringers, Final Fantasy XIV"s most recent and most fantastical expansion. Three panelists discuss the changes Shadowbringers made to the FFXIV job system, how Shadowbringers subverts a few central tenets of Final Fantasy, and the unmatched passion and dedication of the FFXIV team, only a few short months away from Endwalker. Listen, and remember us. Featuring: Michael Sollosi, Caitlin Argyros, Marcos Gaspar; Edited by Micah CoatesGet in Touch:RPGFan.comEmail us: retro@rpgfan.comTwitter: @rpgfancomInstagram: @rpgfancomFacebook: rpgfancomTwitch: rpgfancomRelated Links:Final Fantasy XIV: Shadowbringers on RPGFan

A fan made remix of one of the most beautiful songs I have heard in any game I have ever played! This particular production being from Final Fantasy 14 called "Night in the Brume". An absolutely stunning piano piece made by the legendary sound producer and designer, Masayoshi Soken! When I first heard this song it took my breath away and not long after, I completely recreated the piano piece and decided to make a remix for all of you fellow gamers and trance heads out there! As a side note you should all absolutely go check out the original! Please enjoy this as it is free for all of you to use!

Join Mike & Jamie as they discuss Pokémon Cards, Zelda Amiibos, and much more! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/pushmybuttons/support

Back from hiatus we are covering all things Fan Festival 2021. Endwalker's full trailer, Reaper job reveal, Yoshida's full keynote address, LIVE Letter 64, the Q&A, other panels, the piano and Primals concerts, welcome back SOKEN, Endwalker Collectors Edition, FFXIV home shopping network, and Endwalker speculation. Yelta and Rubicon host.

Fan Fest 2021 is behind us. It's time to process everything. We analyze the trailer, go through the Keynote, the concerts, and the Live Letter from Day 2. We also read a post-keynote interview by Gamer Japan. Translated Interview: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/ndshil/yoshida_interview_with_gamer_japan_about/ Soken's Message: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJCKGhgxXJ8 *************************************** ► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/SpeakersXIV ► Become a Speakers YT Member: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2BQVHKP5x3Cs62MB0DF5EQ/join ► Mercandise: https://teespring.com/stores/speakersxiv ► Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SpeakersXIV ► Catch us LIVE on Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/speakersofhydaelyn ► Speakers Discord: https://discord.gg/ATBUccS

It's a new week and a lot of stuff has happened over the weekend! So in Episode 88, we're joined once again by Rebecca Stone of Twinfinite and the Nintendo Shack podcast to discuss the new Mario Golf: Super Rush trailer, Mediatonic accidentally releasing Fall Guys' source code, IGN and the Palestinian crisis, Resident Evil Village's disappointing Japanese sales debut, Final Fantasy XIV's composer Soken revealing that he was battling cancer while working on the game, and more! Check out more from Rebecca Stone! Twitter: https://twitter.com/forestminish Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/forestminish Nintendo Shack podcast: https://psvg.blog/nintendo-shack Twinfinite: https://twinfinite.net/author/rebeccaj/ --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/gvg/support

Episode 25: StagingWhy Staging is so important in an Active Shooter Event, how it works, and how it can save youBill Godfrey:Welcome back to our next podcast. Today's topic is going to be staging. That probably sounds a little boring to some of you, but it turns out it's pretty important to having a successful response to an active shooter event. My name is Bill Godfrey, your host for the podcast. I'm one of the instructors here at C3 Pathways. And I am joined by three of our other instructors, Ken Lamb law enforcement Sergeant. Actually Ken you're up for promotion, aren't you?Ken Lamb:I am, a couple of months. Looking forward to it and looking forward to talking about staging today.Bill Godfrey:Well, welcome, Ken. We're also joined by Robert McMahan recently retired as chief deputy out of Colorado. How's retirement feeling Robert?Robert McMahan:It's awesome. It's awesome. Really enjoying it.Bill Godfrey:Absolutely. And of course, many of you are familiar instructor to the podcast, Bruce Scott, retired from the fire service. Bruce. Thanks for coming in again.Bruce Scott:Thanks a lot, Bill. I appreciate it.Bill Godfrey:So we're going to talk about staging today, as we said, and this is a familiar topic to the fire service and in some cases it may even be a yawner, or a gloss over, but it really shouldn't be. As we talk today, we're going to talk a little bit about some of the differences between doing staging in an active shooter event versus how we might stage in a structure fire. So there's certainly some important stuff here for the fire service overall, but clearly the fire service is familiar with the idea of staging, use it almost every day and use it regularly enough to be pretty good at it in most cases. But what about law enforcement? Ken, Robert, is staging important to law enforcement? Is it something that law enforcement by and large sees as a necessity in events like these or in large events?Ken Lamb:Right. So in events such as an active shooter event, staging is important and it is part of the, it's really embedded in our policy as far as making sure that our units are staging prior to arriving after the first five or six responders have made it on scene to neutralize the threat. Where it does become problematic is that you have a lot of radio traffic that's taking place in that initial response. And sometimes people get caught up in initial response and forget about the staging so that it can complicate efforts, if you don't have one person that's thinking about staging, stop short, starts relaying, or communicating to responding units, to move to staging.And what we see is an over convergence on the target, if staging isn't set up and it also, what we find out takes some pretty skillful communication with fire rescue in order to coordinate that staging location because most times, as you mentioned, fire rescue has already established staging. So even if we have that one person that says, "Hey, I'm going to stop short and I'm going to stage here," we have to make sure we're staging with fire rescue because if not, it can surely complicate matters as well.Bill Godfrey:Robert, Ken's talking from a perspective of, I think an agency that's already culturally kind of adopted that posture, or at least in the process of doing that. And I know that the agency you came from had done that as well, but it wasn't always that way, you kind of led through that transition. Can you talk a little bit about that?Robert McMahan:Sure. Ken makes some great points and one of the problems that we had in one of our active shooter events was not getting law enforcement and fire to staging together. And what it resulted in is an inability to get sufficient security assigned to RTF so that they could be ready to go down range and take care of patients. And the over convergence pieces is huge. That's the first thing that's going to happen if responding officers don't respond to staging and once you get those initial contact teams going. And they're going to overwhelm your incident, they're going to run over the top of you. And you're going to spend all your time trying to get your arms around that instead of doing other critical things that get patients to the hospital and save lives.Bill Godfrey:So you're talking about one of the lessons that you guys learned, and Robert, if memory serves me correctly, you've responded to three active shooter events in your career. Am I remembering that right?Robert McMahan:Yes.Bill Godfrey:As we always want to try to draw lessons learned from that, I know you shared with me and with the audience now, some of the lessons learned from that particular response, but has the message penetrated in the organization that you were a part of and in your surrounding communities, what's been the net effect of that? Was kind of learning that lesson once enough to turn the water?Robert McMahan:You would like to say so, but not always. I think we turn a little bit each time and we get a little better each time, but it does take a lot of effort to get law enforcement to change and adapt to go with the staging models that we're talking about because, we're cops, we want to run to the gunfire. We want to go take care of the bad guy and that's well and good, but there's other things to do in the incident besides that. And over time, I think law enforcement has gotten a lot better, but we certainly have to be more disciplined in the staging process and getting our resources to a place that they are ready to deploy with a mission and get a job done.Bill Godfrey:Before we leave this topic, can you share a little bit more for the listeners on the details of the incident that you're, you don't have to necessarily give the specifics, but just kind of set the stage form a little bit and tell them the practical of what happened to you guys.Robert McMahan:Sure. We had an active shooter incident in Colorado, not too long ago, just a few years ago that resulted in eight students being shot. And initial response was handled very well by the initial responding officers they got in and, and took care of the threats. And, but it was the other officers that kept coming. We had some neighboring agencies and they just overwhelmed us. They just kept coming and coming and coming right on top of the incident. And that resulted in an over convergence like Ken talked about, on the incident and creating chaos in the incident that didn't need to happen. These incidents are chaotic enough without having an over convergence of resources that you're not in control of.And the second thing that resulted was not having enough officers to assign to the RTF teams and they just would not move out of staging without that, and they're not supposed to. And so our officers adapted to that and they got the students out and to medical help quickly anyway, but that would have been a much better response to provide medical personnel to them at the casualty collection point, rather than having to drag them out and put them in ambulances on the street.Bill Godfrey:So if I'm understanding you correctly and reading between the lines, you had a staging location that was established, that your organization had set up and had effectively up and running. But when you're neighboring agencies, mutual aid, I presume rolled into the incident, they didn't go to the staging area you'd set up?Robert McMahan:That's correct. And one of the reasons for that is they were listening to their main channel, instead of going to our channel, which the incident was occurring on. And that's one of the things that we have talked about in the past. And one of the agreements that we had in place at the time was to go to the main agencies channel to get those instructions and that didn't occur and we debriefed it. They owned it and that's fine. And I think they're learning from that. I think we learned from that, but we did establish staging right away and our fire brothers were great at doing that. And so we had staging, but just no cops at staging that could be deployed to specific duties.Bill Godfrey:So Bruce, Robert's talking about having the staging area set up and having fire rescue ready to go. Can you talk us... I know you've done it hundreds, if not thousands of times in your career rolled into staging for a structure fire or other incident, but can you talk a little bit about what makes staging a little different for fire EMS in an active shooter event than a structure fire.Bruce Scott:Yeah. And there's a whole lot of difference Bill. Number one, on an active shooter incident, the first thing that's going to be different is ideally you're going to have a law enforcement staging manager there side-by-side with you. So you can begin, as Robert was alluding too, you begin forming up those rescue task forces with that law enforcement staging officer. Typically on the fire department, we stage, we wait for the incident commander to say, "Hey, engine one, come on down to the scene," or "Engine two, lay me a line," or "Ladder one, ladder the rear of the building." And you get those orders directly from the incident commander and the model that we use and we teach nationally now, as a standard, you may be getting those orders from tactical.You may be getting those orders from triage. You may be getting those orders from transport to fill those resource requests. So the only way to overcome this, so you don't figure it out on the day that bad things happen, adopt it as policy, train to those policies and then exercise those policies with all the agencies that may be involved. And that's the only way you can overcome it. So you don't deal with this problem when the bad things happen.Bill Godfrey:So one of the things that jumps out at me is in most models, you've got a single staging manager and maybe a deputy manager. We found out years ago that doesn't work very well here. You need at least one law enforcement staging manager. You need at least one fire EMS staging manager. If EMS is separate, you need a staging manager for them, basically for each one of the radio channels that you're using.Bruce Scott:Absolutely.Bill Godfrey:You're going to need some. And those staging managers together literally have to be together, working together. It's not like they stand on different sides of the parking lot. They're standing working together to make the team assignments. Can you talk a little bit about that?Bruce Scott:Absolutely. So they're in their hip pockets. So if Ken and I were working staging together, we be talking constantly. Him being a Sergeant, soon to be a Lieutenant on the Sheriff's house. He has some authority, so he can tell those officers, he can direct those officers. And myself as a captain of a fire department, I could certainly tell these units, "This is what we're doing." So we have some authority in the staging manager positions that can kind of direct those folks. In the fire service, you know this Bill, you spend a long time in the fire department. We used to use our, I hate to say this, our weakest link to be our staging manager. We knew they were probably not do well down at the fire scene so we would use that resource to the best of our ability. That cannot be the case in an active shooter incident. You need to have your well-trained, well-versed that can listen to what's going on, onto their radios and lean forward and prepare for what they think may happen next, go ahead and begin assembling those resources.Bill Godfrey:I completely agree with you there. Culturally, do you think it's a challenge for the fire service to kind of recognize that active shooter event is a little bit different than the way it gets managed and to let go of some of the, I'm not even sure what to call it, the rigidity of the ICS of having to flow those things through the commander that they... I'm not even sure quite how to phrase that question, Bruce, but you know where I'm trying to go. Culturally, how difficult is it for us to get fire service to recognize that just because of the way they do it on a structure fireworks doesn't necessarily mean that's the best model here and that that's all still okay under the incident command system. The incident commander can designate that authority to the staging manager, delegate that stuff.Bruce Scott:He should. He should delegate that authority to staging manager.Bill Godfrey:What are the cultural things that you think get in the way of that and how do we overcome it?Bruce Scott:Again, I think the only way to overcome it is to practice it where it becomes part of your normal organizational culture. You can't expect to have a plan and do something one way 99.9% of the time and then on this one particular type of incident changed the way you do things. So I think again, practicing it, using special events to practice it where you're staging extra officers or extra fire rescue folks at special events. Use every opportunity you can have available to you to practice it, but our own organizational cultures get in our way. We used to say in the fire service, we spent 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.Bill Godfrey:Yeah. It's funny. I was thinking that when Robert was talking about how law enforcement is slow to change, I'm thinking, no, not compared to fire service, it's like comparing a glacier to a flowing river.Bruce Scott:Yeah. We've gotten better at it. I think we're constantly in this training mode now and recognizing the importance of training. But again, I think the only answer to this is to adopt a policy, train that policy and practice that policy. And that's the only way you're going to overcome it long term.Bill Godfrey:So Ken, we're talking about the culture of the fire service kind of getting in the way a little bit here and having to overcome that. What about the culture in law enforcement towards staging?Ken Lamb:Right. So.Bill Godfrey:If your organization made the shift or at least is trying to make the shift, of the four of us here, you're the only ones still on active duty.Ken Lamb:Right.Bill Godfrey:What was that like? What's that culture shift like and what do you have to say to get officers to understand it?Ken Lamb:Right. So what I like to tell my officers, I learned from Billy Perry, which you're obviously familiar with is we need thinkers and doers and shooters. So I need officers that want to be part of the solution, but also need officers to have the ability to think outside of the box. So if they recognize that there are enough resources downrange taking care of the problem, then take a step back and realize what else needs to be taken care of. And in this case say, "Hey, I'm going to set up a staging area at this location," and coordinate that with the dispatcher. And one thing that I love about your programs is that it incorporates a dispatcher because I think the dispatcher or the telecommunication expert can be a critical piece of this and constantly putting over the radio when they're able to, the location of staging and reminding officers to respond to staging instead of going to the target location, because oftentimes the tunnel vision sets in with these officers, and understandably so traumatic event is taking place and they want to get there and be part of the solution.Right. So what I like to tell my officers, I learned from Billy Perry, which you're obviously familiar with is we need thinkers and doers and shooters. So I need officers that want to be part of the solution, but also need officers to have the ability to think outside of the box. So if they recognize that there are enough resources downrange taking care of the problem, then take a step back and realize what else needs to be taken care of. And in this case say, "Hey, I'm going to set up a staging area at this location," and coordinate that with the dispatcher. And one thing that I love about your programs is that it incorporates a dispatcher because I think the dispatcher or the telecommunication expert can be a critical piece of this and constantly putting over the radio when they're able to, the location of staging and reminding officers to respond to staging instead of going to the target location, because oftentimes the tunnel vision sets in with these officers, and understandably so traumatic event is taking place and they want to get there and be part of the solution.And what we've been taught since maybe officers is stop the killing, stop the dying. So they want to go and achieve those two objectives. But the reality is it doesn't take many officers to achieve that objective. And we have a whole lot of other people, a whole lot of other responders trying to be part of the solution coming, and we need to start getting our arms wrapped around this. And when we have thinkers, doers, and shooters, I think that finding their place in those three is really key to organizing this response and having a successful response and achieving this, stop the killing, and stop the dying and getting those people who were injured or survivors who are injured to the hospital within that golden hour.Bill Godfrey:So Ken, Robert was talking a little bit about his personal experience in an incident there. I know you were a responder on one of the active shooter events in Jacksonville.Ken Lamb:Absolutely.Bill Godfrey:What were your experiences? Can you talk a little bit about that?Ken Lamb:Absolutely. So one of the challenges that we had is that we had placed our incident location, staging command post, our witness holding area. We had placed those very close to the target location, that complicated efforts for a variety of reasons. I mean, the first being that you had a large amount of resources right across the street from the incident location, which led to folks who were not in the field level management diving into the field level management, if that makes sense to you. And it also was confusing as to who was checking into staging, who was assigned, who was doing what? And I think a lot of those problems can be solved by having some distance between those locations.And when we talk about staging, having that staging in a cold zone and easily identifiable by all the responders, as well as individuals on that are assigned to the incident so that you know where to go get available resources, because many times you would run across an officer and, "Hey we need someone to do this," and, "What are you doing?" "Well, I'm doing this," and, "I'm doing that." And it was difficult to differentiate who was doing what, and I think that some distance in that staging location would have assisted.Bill Godfrey:If I'm understanding, you're saying that your staging location was almost literally across the street from the attack site?Ken Lamb:Right. And I don't necessarily fault the initial response because there was a lot going on. Understandably so, there was some conflicting information that was coming on or coming in, which led them to stage at that location. But I think that at some point in time, when additional resources arrive and you recognize probably change this location and back this up a little bit and identify this as the new staging location and move in any available resources in that location so that we know the pool to draw from. And it eliminates a lot of the confusion in an already complicated situation.Bill Godfrey:Well, that makes sense. So you're describing a problem that's a little bit different than what Robert was talking about. Did you have any problems with mutual aid or non-agency units-Ken Lamb:Yes.Bill Godfrey:... Not coming to staging or things like that?Ken Lamb:We had problems with units that were not of our agency coming to the command post. So they weren't even checking in and staging, they were just coming straight to the command post. And part of that was due to our setup and the fact that we were so close, but I remember numerous alphabet agencies in the command post that had not checked into staging. And it certainly did complicate things.Bill Godfrey:Does that sound familiar, Robert?Robert McMahan:Yes it does. I want to talk a quick, about a point Ken brought up about dispatch helping out with reminding where that is. And I think that's very important. You get that information out repeatedly so that people coming in to service that, Oh, we heard something's going on. They go jump on the radio. They get that information about where staging's at. I went as far with our dispatchers to, I gave them the checklist. And one of the roles that tactical has is to set up staging right away. I told dispatch if tactical gets up and running and he doesn't tell you where staging is ask him where would you like staging? And that reminds him, that's a conversation that everybody's having like, Oh yeah, we got staging. We got to do that. And that helps get the process rolling in the right direction.Bill Godfrey:It's interesting how much sway dispatchers can have on an event going smoothly. And the idea of having them prompt that is something we try to reinforce in training. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but giving the dispatchers the checklist, making sure that they're just as educated on the checklist and the items and the terminology as the responders, I think is critically important. Bruce, would you agree?Bruce Scott:Absolutely. And I'm glad Robert brought the point up because that's the point that I wanted to bring up as well. Right. I don't know how many times in my career our dispatcher saved my button reminded me of things that I had forgotten about. Just simple little things like, "Hey, command, where, where where'd you put your staging area?" Dang, I didn't put a staging area. Maybe I should do that. So I don't know how many times they've saved us.Bill Godfrey:Absolutely. And I think that those items not only empowering the dispatchers, but the other piece is that, they've got to have the training, which I think is one of the reasons it's so important as Ken mentioned, to have dispatchers be part of the training we do, is they need to know what the process is supposed to be. What is it supposed to look like? What is it supposed to sound like? And what are the elements that are critical that if they're missed, as you just saying Bruce, I probably ought to provide a gentle reminder.Bruce Scott:Yeah.Bill Godfrey:That we need that benchmark. So Ken, I'm interested to know if you're comfortable talking about it because I realized this wasn't that long ago.Ken Lamb:Right.Bill Godfrey:With the staging area, almost literally across the scene from the attack site, was it a problem for you to get your fire department to stage with you in the same staging area?Ken Lamb:So the interesting part of that response is, by the time the following resources arrived, the fire department had already taken the survivors and transported them to the hospital. So they were gone. So it was kind of chaotic. We did eventually get them back and be part of our response, and Bruce can comment more on this than I could, but in my experience, they travel as a package. So when they arrive as a package, they're all leaving as a package.Bruce Scott:And the interesting thing on that particular call is that, the first responding fire units, weren't dispatched.Ken Lamb:Right.Bruce Scott:They were literally across the street doing some training exercises at a parking garage and heard the shots and people screaming, running out of the landing. So the firemen did what firemen do.Ken Lamb:Absolutely.Bruce Scott:They ran to it, without any help.Bill Godfrey:That's a whole new meaning to a first responder.Bruce Scott:Absolutely.Ken Lamb:Right.Bruce Scott:I think that led to what Ken's leading to is some difficulty getting them out of the hot zone because they were already in there treating them.Bill Godfrey:So Ken, more recently you had a civil unrest incident that required a fairly large response.Ken Lamb:Right.Bill Godfrey:And if I remember correctly, you inherited the staging manager role.Ken Lamb:Absolutely. And I was excited to do it because obviously been to this training, assisted in the instruction, so it was excited to take on that responsibility. And I remember watching this play out on TV and I was like, Oh, I can totally run this staging. Let's do it. And I got the call.Bill Godfrey:How did it go?Ken Lamb:It went really well. At first, so there were a lot of challenges. The first challenge that I had to overcome is, and we really don't think about this in time, but you have to get permission from individuals use their property. I mean, we're police, we just can't go take over someone's property and fortunately.Bill Godfrey:You can't?Ken Lamb:No. You can't.Bill Godfrey:I thought you could.Ken Lamb:We can't park 500 police cars on someone's parking lot and just say, "Hey, this is our parking lot for the next seven days." But fortunately we have really good partnerships in that area. And we had reached out to the local community college, their head of security, and he was gracious. It was during COVID. So they weren't having class anyways. Or if they were, it was very limited. And he gave us permission to use their entire parking lot, which had a good access control point. That was my first thing I was looking for is how can I control access to this? Because I feel like security is really important, particularly in this situation, we didn't want any of the protestors coming to our staging location and essentially starting an additional protest at that location, which brought up our second challenges that the protest was constantly moving. Like it started at this area and then we would find on social media that now they're going to do a protest in this area, which there was a park right next to our staging location, which meant we had to move our staging location from the parking lot.We are currently in to another parking lot. So I had to find an additional staging location and work through all the logistics of moving 200 plus police officers in addition to a change of shift, to a different location. And the communication there in was certainly complicated. But using many of the processes that we teach as C3 Pathways that really enabled a smooth transition and in my mind, my number one priority is I want to ensure that the officers know where they're going, what they're doing, and why they're doing it so that they're not disgruntled. Because I know this will be shocking to all of you guys, but there's nothing worse than disgruntled police officer, particularly in staging. They find creative ways to do things, but just drive you a little nutty.Bruce Scott:Affirmative.Bill Godfrey:And what's your joke about the three steel balls?Bruce Scott:Yeah. You put a fireman in a room with three steel balls, come back an hour later, one will be missing and they won't know nothing about it.Ken Lamb:Absolutely.Bruce Scott:And you and I ran into this when we were going to Katrina. We stayed for a long time with our task forces. And the worst thing you do is have them just standing around. They're tearing stuff up.Ken Lamb:Absolutely. I tell you, one of the things or the aspects of staging that I didn't think about until I was doing this and I had the large amount of resources is, I was working with the ops section chief, which was Travis Cox, he's also an instructor here. And he wanted to know what are my resources in staging and create that common operating picture. And that's where we started kind of really thinking of some innovative ideas where a separated command post or a separated law branch or whatever branch could understand what was in staging because they're ordering resources but sometimes in the communication there would be some hiccups and you would order 20 police officers and 40 police officers would show up.And when you talk about finances and overtime and all these other aspects that come into play, when you have these resources, you want to know, do I have what I ordered? And if I don't, what do I have? Is it less, is it more? So that they can adequately staff, whatever group or resource or strike team that they're trying to form and put in a place that they have the adequate resources for that?Bill Godfrey:How many folks did you have working with you, Ken in staging?Ken Lamb:Yeah, I had an assistant staging manager and I was able to get many of the, the resource unit leader team members over to assist with the check-in and kind of managing that flow into staging because as I had mentioned, we wanted to make sure we had a access point and an exit point so that we just didn't have officers kind of going in different ways, either coming in or leaving. And it was easier to keep accountability of folks when you had one point of entry and one point of exit. But the challenge is that you didn't want to have a large line of resources checking in and just killing time waiting in line. So we got a bunch of resources check them.Bruce Scott:Yes. The reason I ask is that, you think of the staging models and even the one where you're using where you have one law enforcement officer, one fire EMS person, but you do what you need to be successful. Right?Ken Lamb:Right.Bruce Scott:And again, instant command system allows that. If you're practitioner of the incident command system that allows that.Ken Lamb:Absolutely.Bruce Scott:It allows you to do check-in and staging, it allows you to do those things that you need to do to be successful. But Bill, the one point that I wanted to make, I think is really important. I think the mentality is, if I stop in staging, we're wasting time. And really the truth of the matter is if you stop in staging, you get an assignment, you get a task, you go down range with that assignment and task, you have the information you need to be successful, it's actually faster. And I think that's the important thing.Bill Godfrey:Bruce, I completely agree with you. One of the, and having been doing this for so long now, I mean, we've been doing the training and teaching this for over a decade. And I remember some of the early conversations with some key law enforcement figures, as we were working through processes and procedures and saying, because they kept saying, I need every gun down range. And I said, "Look, I agree, but don't you need every gun exactly where you need them when you need them?" And they said, "Well, yeah." And looked at me kind of puzzled. And I said, "If you've got 10 guns, 12 guns, 20, whatever that number is, how are you possibly going to make sure that each one is where they need to be when you need them there, if you don't organize this a little bit?" And that was kind of a breaking point. Now Robert you've in the business a long time, how many years on total?Robert McMahan:32.Bill Godfrey:32 years. And you've seen a lot in your career change. How does what we're doing now what we're training now compare and contrast to the very first one you experienced?Robert McMahan:It's a light years ahead of where we started. And you guys talk about managing resources and making sure you have guns down range where you need them. And that's very important. And we talked about the time factor here and saving time and Ken alluded to how law enforcement often has to go find somebody and what are you doing, and try and repurpose them. If you have officers in staging, when that next tax comes up, like perimeter group or reunification security or whatever it is, you don't have to go try and pick them out of the mass that's out there and try and repurpose them and figure out if they're doing something essential now, or can I repurpose them for something else they're going to be there that will save time, that will drive towards a better result in these things.And we just have to remember that from Columbine when we experienced that to today, that the way we do this has changed and it's got to keep changing it and we got to keep getting better at it because at the end of the day, we're here to save lives, but that's not the only thing we do there. We've got a whole other incident to manage. Once we've saved the lives, it's still an incident.Bill Godfrey:Yeah. It's we have to save lives and not just the traumatic injuries of the physical body, but also the recovery of those survivors. And as we've all learned sometimes painfully so, how that incident gets managed can have a positive or a negative impact on the long-term recovery of survivors, the recovery of the community, and the ability to pick yourself up and not let that define you. I remember my conversation vividly with a young lady that was a survivor of one of these horrific events. And she said, the turning point for me in my recovery was when I shifted from seeing myself as a victim to seeing myself as a survivor and this thing happened, but it doesn't define me. And I thought that was a really, really powerful message.Robert McMahan:It is.Bill Godfrey:Really powerful message. We talked just not that long ago with John Michael Keyes and about the idea I was reminded as I relistened to that because that podcast, we originally courted right before COVID in December of 2019 before COVID and I had forgotten, we were talking about reunification. We were talking about the new SAVE them programs, school safety and violent event incident management course, we're doing. And the tail end of the conversation, we got talking about this idea of an emotional responsible room entry. And I'd kind of had forgotten about that conversation because COVID just kind of derailed everything that we were working on. And I realized that we needed to pick that back up. And I know it can be a difficult challenge for us to think about as responders, but when these events occur, especially when they occur with young kids and you've dealt with the threat, you've dealt with the injured. Now it's time to start clearing and moving the kids to a secure offsite reunification.How you do that, how you make those room entries can either help or harm the emotional health of the traumatization of the kids, of those children. And the conversation we were having and this is one I think that law enforcement really needs to grapple with. And there's not an easy answer. And that's part of the frustrating part is there's not easy answers to some of these things, but how do you do a tactically safe room entry without scaring the bejesus out of a bunch of little kids? What does that look like?Ken Lamb:Right. And from my professional experience, if the threat is neutralized or you have good information to believe that the threat is not in that location, then it's a slow and deliberate room entry, which is doing clearing as much of the room as you can from the outside of the door, which means a less dominating room entry. So if we're just conducting a pie from outside the room, you're able to identify the people inside the room. You can talk to them, their emotions aren't as high because you're taking your time. And I know from my agency's perspective, that's the tactic that we adopt once the threat has been neutralized, or we have a known location for the threat is that the rest of the structure is just a slow and deliberate. We're using mirrors, we're using cameras, we're using any and all technology that we can leverage to clear the inside of that room from outside.Bill Godfrey:Interesting. I think we probably could and should do an entire podcast just on this topic and maybe do a round table of some of our law enforcement instructors to kind of talk about what that might look like. Robert, I know that you have some personal passions on this subject. You guys, Robert, you mind coming back and talking about that in another podcast?Robert McMahan:Oh, absolutely.Bill Godfrey:All right. Well, we'll get that one scheduled in the future. It was an interesting tangent from a staging podcast. I'm not even sure how we got there, but gentlemen, thank you very much for coming in and talking about this important topic. Ken, Robert, Bruce, it's always a pleasure to have you here.

Paul Casey: A good rule of thumb is before you speak, ask yourself, "Is what I'm about to say true, necessary, and kind?" T-N-K. Speaker 2: Raising the water level of leadership in the Tri-Cities of Eastern Washington, it's the Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast. Welcome to the TCI Podcast, where local leadership and self-leadership expert, Paul Casey, interviews local CEOs, entrepreneurs, and non-profit executives, to hear how they lead themselves and their teams so we can all benefit from their wisdom and experience. Here's your host, Paul Casey, of Growing Forward Services, coaching and equipping individuals and teams to spark breakthrough success. Paul Casey: It's a great day to Grow Forward. Thanks for joining me for today's episode with Ken Gosney. Ken is the Executive Director of Goodwill of the Columbia. And a fun fact about Ken is he really tries to be hip at home, but his family's like, "Not so much." So Ken, tell us a little bit about that. Ken Gosney: Well, I try to keep it cool with the kids, and the other day my wife told a story, and after she was done, I said, "Cool story, bro." I thought it was quite funny, and my kids just ripped on me and told me that was three years old and nobody says that anymore. It was a strong effort, but another failure. Paul Casey: Thanks for trying to be relevant. Ken Gosney: Yeah, keeping it real. Paul Casey: Well, we'll dive in after checking in with our Tri-Cities Influencer sponsor. Speaker 4: It's easy to delay answering uncomfortable questions like, "What happens to my assets and my loved ones when I die?" So it's no surprise that nearly 50% of Americans don't have a will, and even fewer have an estate plan. Many disabled clients worry that they don't have enough assets to set up an estate plan, but there are important options available to ensure that you have a voice in your medical and financial decision making even if your health takes a turn for the worst. Estate planning fives you a voice when your health deteriorates or after you're gone. Maren Miller Bam, Attorney at Law, is currently providing free consultations. To find out more about estate planning or to book an appointment, call Maren at 206-485-4066, or visit Salus, that's S-A-L-U-S, dash Law.com today. Speaker 4: Thank you for your support of leadership development in the tri-cities. Well, welcome Ken. I was privileged to meet you, we're thinking it's about nine years ago. My son was a freshman at Hanford High, you were the principal there, and of course I always want to get to know my kid's principal because I was a principal many years before that. I remember being in a parent-teacher meeting where we were talking about the regulations of the upcoming dance. And I realized I don't want to be in these meetings. Ken Gosney: Yeah, those were interesting meetings, what's appropriate at a school dance. Paul Casey: Yikes. So that our Tri-City Influencers can get to know you, take us through a couple of career highlights that led you to your current position. Ken Gosney: Well, when I first entered education, I was an English teacher out of Prosser High School. Paul Casey: Yeah, English. Ken Gosney: Yes. Paul Casey: That's my minor. Ken Gosney: There you go. Loved it, was teaching, and then coaching basketball and golf after school. My principal convinced me that administration might be a good thing to do, a good career. I was in the middle of getting my master's degree at that point, so I took a few extra classes, got my credentials. Low and behold, the athletic director/assistant principal blew a hole in his esophagus when he was eating Cheerios, he choked. Paul Casey: No. Ken Gosney: And so, immediately I was pulled out of the classroom, and for the next four months was an administrator at the high school, and loved it. So then took the next step of applying for jobs and was hired at Hanford High School, was there for 12 years. I then made the natural transition to Goodwill. Paul Casey: There was a little sarcasm in natural transition, right. Ken Gosney: Yeah. No, so I knew actually the former executive director at Goodwill, so when he left, the job came open, and I thought that that seems like a great opportunity and still kind of satisfied my desire to have a job where I can look in the mirror and say I'm trying to give back to the community, I'm trying to make a difference. So went for it, and yeah, the board selected me. It's been five-and-a-half years now. Paul Casey: Okay, and why do you love what you do? Ken Gosney: Well, when I was a principal, I worked heavily in the special education department and loved it. I loved working with that population of kids. You'll never meet better human beings than those kids. I still see those kids still now because Goodwill of course works with a lot of employees with disabilities or other barriers. It's great to see them still progressing, getting to see how they're doing. And I really just valued a mission that Goodwill has of changing lives through the power of work. We're able to, really on a daily basis, impact people's lives, and the lives of their family, and get out of that cycle of not having a job, and poverty, and helping people achieve some goals. It's really cool. Yeah, I can't ask for a better job, I love what I do. Paul Casey: What a great mission. I love the thrift stores too. We're thrifters, my wife and I, and my mom. I think these jeans probably were purchased at Goodwill. Ken Gosney: I hope you got a good deal on them. Paul Casey: Always, always. There was probably that moment of that decision to switch from being a principal to executive director, what was going through your mind during that? Did you do pros and cons? Ken Gosney: Absolutely. Yeah, actually I would take a lot of walks at night, I'd take the dog out, and walk for miles just going through my mind if I really wanted to leave a job I loved. I loved being the principal at Hanford High School. The high school was really humming along. I had been there long enough that I had hired the administrative team, the leadership team, and a lot of the teachers. Things were going really well, I loved it, so making that kind of a change was pretty dramatic. I had a lot of pros and cons lists I guess going in my head, a lot of talks with my wife about what we thought would be the best for the family. Really, I mean, not to get dark here, but when my youngest was six, he had a brain tumor. We were really lucky it was in a good location, the surgery was successful, but it was really scary. Ken Gosney: We were in pediatric ICU for two weeks with him. So at that point, I really kind of analyzed where I was as a parent, and I saw other people's kids more than I saw my own kids. At that point, I started looking around, but I still wanted to make sure it was a job that fulfilled my need of wanting to be a positive impact in the community. So when this job came open, I was like, "That's the one," but still it took a lot of thought to get there. But it allowed me to spend more time with my family than a high school principal position, which is just crazy hours. I mean it really is. Paul Casey: Yeah, yeah. So work-life balance was a huge, almost number one... Ken Gosney: Right, yeah. Absolutely. Paul Casey: ... on the list for that decision. Just for our listeners who might have a critical decision to make in their life, what do you tell people who are that crossroads of decision making. It could be career or it could just be another big decision in their life. What advice would you give? Ken Gosney: Well, I think you really need to analyze why you're considering the change. I could throw out the old cliché, which I truly believe, you follow your heart. But really make sure you understand why you're wanting to make that change and if it truly is right for you. I mean, money is a factor, there's no question. There's lifestyle, what are the hours? Are you working weekends? Is it straight 9:00 to 5:00? I think all those things come into play, and also where you are in your life. If you have kids, a wife, all those decisions of course have a direct impact on your family. But I think at the end of the day you do make that pros and cons list and try to make the best decision you can make with all those factors being included. Ken Gosney: Sometimes jobs I think look really attractive on the outside, and then when you really start to dive in, is this the best move? Maybe it's not. I would just say put a lot of thought into it and why you want to go into that position, what are you hoping to gain or accomplish by making that move. Paul Casey: What's the most rewarding part of being a leader for you? And then how do you stay focused on that and not the hassles, the disappointments, and the other junk of being a leader? You probably had to do that as a principal and also now. Ken Gosney: Yeah. It's really easy to get dragged down into the muck of it. And sometimes I have to remind myself I'm not perfect at it. I have to remind myself that looking at all the positive things is really important. It is important to acknowledge what you're doing well as a leader, as an organization. Not to rest on your laurels with it, but to acknowledge that there are things we're doing really well and there are things we need to improve on. But sometimes you get really lost in the negative, whether it's employee situations, you name it, right? Just like the lockdown when we were shut down for three-and-a-half months, we had to make some really difficult decisions in there and it was very frustrating because of the limited control we had on the situation. Ken Gosney: Yeah, I just think it's important to acknowledge what is going well, not to dwell on it too much, but to remember, yeah we got these significant challenges or frustrations right now, but we're doing some things that are going really well too, and we're having some really positive impacts. But again, I have to remind myself to do that because I think human nature sometimes it to just focus on. And sometimes like that five percent of the job that really exhausts you mentally, physically, whatever, it's easy to overlook the other 95% that's going fairly well because you're just focused on that 5%. And so I think sometimes it's just good to take a break and step back and say, "Okay, we're doing this and we're going to be able to handle this challenge." But and also I think surrounding yourself with people that embrace challenges and are positive themselves, you have people that are energy givers and you have people that are energy suckers and who you surround yourself with, I think is really important. Paul Casey: How do you intentionally try to celebrate those wins? Do you do it in staff meetings? Do you do it in one to ones? Is there retreats, where do you try to capture those wins and those stories? Ken Gosney: I think all of the above, I mean, we have like with our store managers, we have weekly meetings and in those meetings, there's an agenda and some of those are things we have to work on or things that aren't going well, that we have to make adjustments. We always talk about things that people are doing really well. And sometimes we actually single out a manager and said, "Hey, this manager was able to accomplish this." And acknowledge the things that our people are doing really well. Ken Gosney: And with my direct leadership team, I have five direct reports. I was acknowledged with my board. I have a board of 14, so I have 14 bosses. And they're great. They're all volunteers in the position. They really value what we do, but I always make sure to acknowledge the work that my team has done, whether individually or as a group because it's a collaborative process. And so it's easy sometimes for a leader to sometimes say, well, this is what I've done. And I try to never say that, I would say, this is what we've done, or this is what Paul did to make things work better for us. And I think that's really important that people that are working hard and being part of your team, understand that you value what they bring to the team and there's ways to acknowledge that. But I think one of the most important things is to collaborate and say, Paul, what do you think about this situation? Paul Casey: Yeah. Ken Gosney: Now at the end of the day, I have the final say, but you should be able to foster an environment of just, "Hey, let's, let's get after it here. And let's disagree." I don't want, yes men. I guess I should say yes people, but I want people to disagree with me and that's a hard environment to foster sometimes because as a leader, you're making yourself vulnerable to, "Hey, my idea, wasn't the best idea." But it also helps you come up with the best solutions. Paul Casey: Yeah. Good stuff. When I teach positive culture, I talk about acknowledging people, getting their input and communication and you hit two or three of those just right there. What makes people feel valued? Ken Gosney: Yeah. Also gives opportunities, I think for growth. I was really proud of when I was at Hanford High School, three or four of the assistant principals, I had went on to take their own buildings as lead principals. And in order to do that they have to have experience and it's a different gig going from assistant principal to a lead principal just like any leadership, right. When you take that step up and suddenly you're in charge of all of it. It's a different gig. And so providing them opportunities to learn, to grow, to fail and fail safely but learn from it. I think it's really important. Paul Casey: How are you growing these days? You mentioned growth and how have you matured as a leader just in recent years? Ken Gosney: Well, maturity is not typically a word that people use with me. But how have I grown as a leader? I think it's really important that you are always as a leader open-minded and I think that's where the most growth comes from. And I think it's important to read books on leadership and all that type of stuff. When it comes down to actually executing it, that collaborative environment allows you as a leader to really get the best information from the best people. If you hire great people and you need to let them be a part of your team and really collaborate in that environment, you learn from each other all the time. And you learn to function as a team in a high level team and that's work, doing that as a work because people have to trust each other that when they throw out an idea, even if it's disagreed with, but it's going to be done respectfully and not in a personal attack type mode. And that takes work to get there. And I think our team is there right now. We're really happy with where we are. But it took some time to get there. Paul Casey: Yeah, so one-liner on a job description of staying open-minded or creating psychological safety collaboration, but it could take, it does take a lot of work to get that. Well, you probably have a lot on your to-do list, like all leaders do, and it's probably greater than the time you have to do it. So how do you triage your tasks? How do you know what to delegate? How do you know what to focus on all that? Ken Gosney: So I'll go back to when I was a principal. I was horrible at delegating and I mean, horrible at delegating my first, probably two or three years as a lead principal. Because I was so, anxiety ridden about making sure everything was done in my world of right, right. So when my kid had that tumor and of course I was out for a month with him, I really had to let go and let my assistants and my leadership team run the show and you know what happened? Paul Casey: Nothing fell apart. Ken Gosney: Nothing fell apart. As a matter of fact, it went really smoothly and it opened my highest, a little bit of, okay, have I been, what have I been shouldering too much and too, have I not been giving opportunities to people to grow and show and develop their skillset. Paul Casey: Yeah. Ken Gosney: And so that was really an eye-opener for me that, okay, you know what, I need to trust my team to do their job and understand that they can do it and they can do it really well. And in fact, sometimes better than me. And so that was a real eye-opener and that really changed I think my perspective of how to work with my team, Paul Casey: Any delegation tips that you'd pass on to our listeners? Ken Gosney: I would say, whatever you... you know first off, if you hire, like in my current position, I have a director of finance. I'm not going to handle finance stuff. I'm going to delegate finance stuff to her, one because that's her job and two that's her training. I should not. I'm an English teacher by trade. I shouldn't be handling finances. So I delegate, if it's within their realm, I think they should be handling it. And so it's easy for me to say, "Okay, I'm going to really control this budget." But really she's part of my team and that's her expertise. So she's going to be right there with me and the rest of the team saying, "Here's where we are. This is what we can do. This is what we can't do." So I would say one of the important things with delegating is to let people do their job. If I have an athletic director as a principal, I should let the athletic director handle athletics and all the issues that can come with that. If I have one that's in charge of discipline, I should let them handle discipline. Yeah, that doesn't mean I'm not involved, but I think you let people do their jobs. Paul Casey: Yeah. Don't pull the rope back. Ken Gosney: Yeah. Paul Casey: Give them authority and responsibility. Right? Ken Gosney: Yeah. Paul Casey: Good stuff. Well, before we head into our next question on relationship building, a shout out to our sponsor. Speaker 4: Located in the Parkway, you'll find motivation, new friends and your new coworking space at Fuse. Whether you're a student just starting out or a seasoned professional, come discover all the reasons to love coworking at Fuse. Come co-work at Fuse for free on Fridays in February, enjoy free coffee or tea, Wifi, printing conference rooms, and more, and bring a friend. Fuse is where individuals and small teams come together in a thoughtfully designed resource, rich environment to get work done and grow their ideas. Comprised of professionals from varying disciplines and backgrounds. Fuse is built for hardworking, fun loving humans. Learn more about us at fusespc.com or stop by 723 The Parkway in Richland Washington. Speaker 4: So can you probably believe, like I do that leadership is relationships. Talk about what relationships are key to your success and how do you intentionally develop those? Speaker 4: Well, I would say the relationship with my, especially my direct leadership team is very important. Like you can't really overstate the importance of that relationships and the way I develop it now, of course, this is the world, according to God's name and I'm sure there's many ways to do this. I just try to make time to talk. And so one thing we frequently do we haven't released since the pandemic because that's kind of screwed up all of our scheduled regular scheduled meetings, but we would start out every meeting our weekly meeting with how was your weekend and we'd go around the table and everybody would take five, 10 minutes and talk about their weekend. Paul Casey: Right now. Ken Gosney: So you think about that, well, that's an hour to an hour and a half of our meeting. By the time you have five or six people reporting. Right? Paul Casey: Yeah. Ken Gosney: And of course it leads to questions from the other, in an engaging conversation. And you get to learn about people, you get to learn about their families, what their interests are. And so that helps to break down walls because all of a sudden now I'm viewing Paul, not just as a work colleague, but kind of a friend and somebody I trust. And so now we can have conversations that maybe a month ago we couldn't have, because I wasn't willing to trust that you were going to be okay with my ideas, whether you liked them or not. And so yeah, I think time is the biggest factor. Ken Gosney: And it's really difficult sometimes because trust me, there are days I come in and it's like, okay, I got a full list of things to do and somebody walks in my office and they want to chat. And I have to, I really have to just push that aside and focus on them because that's important. That relationship is really, really important. And it's important for them to get my attention at that moment because they've come in looking for it. And for me to shut it down and say, I don't have time would not be healthy and any way, shape or form. So yeah, it takes a lot of time. But I don't know that you could do anything more important than develop those relationships, if you really want to have a collaborative environment, Paul Casey: You said everything changed in COVID. Do you, do not check in via zoom or whatever you're doing now, or just less of it? Ken Gosney: So we still have weekly meetings, but we've changed from, now we have about 10 or 11 people in there and we're all spread out through the conference room. And we brought in people, extra people because of safety, we've got a safety person, who's making sure we're following all the safety protocols. And then, so it's almost become too big of a, "Hey, let's take 10 minutes because now we're going to be here for three hours." And really people is we've been really busy. And so now it's trying to find that balance between talking and honoring their time. And so yeah, it's become a little bit bigger, but I think we've been able to handle it well because we've already had those established relationships. And so it hasn't been as big of a deal, but we do miss it, but there, you know, I just was talking to my HR director, which I haven't seen in a couple of weeks because I have been out and she's went out. And so we took 20, 25 minutes and taught and just shooting the breeze. And so those pockets of time are still happening as they can, but it's been difficult to find the time to just say, "Hey, this is, we're going to work as a team and build relationships at this moment." So. Paul Casey: Okay. Well, self-care, essential to mental health to top performance, especially now when you made a career altering decision because of self-care and family work-life balance. So what recharges your batteries? Ken Gosney: Well, I think really at this point in this environment I enjoy my family and really enjoy going to work, especially after three and a half months where we really couldn't go to work or it was very limited in what we could do and who we could see and all that. I really came to value more than ever what we do. So I worked, does recharge my batteries. I know that's a, maybe not something you hear every day, but I do love going to work and I miss it when I'm not there. I've missed the routine of being there every day with people. But really at this point my wife and I are kind of getting two of our three kids are gone to college and then we got a sophomore. Ken Gosney: And so a lot of times it's just, my wife and I we're sitting there watching TV and we've settled into this, watching Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy and- Paul Casey: No, you haven't gone there. Ken Gosney: And then we have our cream corn and go to bed. We enjoy each other's company and it's been good just to at night, we're not running kids all over the place anymore. And I know sometimes that's scary when couples hit that phase, but Michael, we haven't been able to run him anywhere because all of the stuff has been canceled. And so really we've been able to just enjoy each other's company. And so that's been good at night be able to sit there and relax and just talk or watch TV together or whatever. A lot of Netflix documentaries. Paul Casey: Yes. Well, you brought up your finance director earlier when we talk about finances are really, one of those big things that you have to do as an executive director to sort of keep just an overall perspective on that your board probably of course would appreciate that you're doing that. So what does that evaluation look like in your position? Ken Gosney: The evaluation of finances? Paul Casey: Yeah. Budget commences, all that kinds of stuff. Ken Gosney: So, like I said, we have 14 board members and they come from a variety of walks of life. Some of them heavily with finance background or banking, business banking. And so we meet monthly and we have to report our finances to the board on a monthly basis. And Goodwill as a nonprofit is an interesting setup, in that we have our mission side of the house and we also have our retail side of the house. And so what's interesting is we have to run the retail side like any business would run. We have all the same bills, all the same problems that any business would have. And how well we run that business is how well we can take care of our mission side of the house. Because the more money we make on the retail side, the more money we have to spend on mission. Ken Gosney: So it's really important, but it's this weird balance between we're, going to be really business savvy and we're going to be really mission savvy and compassionate savvy. And sometimes that's almost like it doesn't go together. So, it's like a compassionate way to run a business, which sometimes, I think some people would say that doesn't work. It does, but we really have to do well on the retail side for our mission side to do well. And so we have to report the finances and the finances, if they're not looking good or they're not sustainable, we would go bankrupt like any other business. Ken Gosney: So my board, yeah, they hold us accountable to making sure the finances are looking good. And if there are issues, we better have an answer for the board as to why something's happening within the finances or expenses and what our plan is to move forward with that. Now the board has been very supportive. Like I said, they're great people, they're very passionate about our mission. But they also understand that mission is funded by our retail. But they hold our feet to the fire and like I said, they know their stuff. And so there's no trying to pull the wool over the eyes of that group. They're too sharp for it. Not that we would try it anyway, but anyway, as a nonprofit, I think, especially if it's a well-run non-profit their finances are in order. If their finances aren't in order, that may spell trouble down the road for them. Paul Casey: Did you have to make any big changes when you came in? I noticed that you had some storefronts and then no longer have as many storefronts for receiving donations. I don't know if that was just an observation I made. Did you have to do some changes of what works, what doesn't work? Ken Gosney: We did collapse two stores in Kennewick into one. We built a brand new one. And we have moved or eliminated some of the donation centers where they're this standalone trailers. And so what's really interesting about that is we use the same process that Walmart would use when placing a store. So Walmart doesn't just come in and buy any old place land. They do research on demographics and what store is going to perform the best and where. We do the same thing. And because it's the business side of the house, we have to make sure that our expenses are under control and we're able to maximize our profits out of there. So yeah, sometimes we were in the wrong spot or needed to make some efficiency changes, and that's what we came up with. So that was a steep learning curve for me, by the way. Ken Gosney: Because a budget as a high school principal, I mean, basically the district gives you, "Here's some money, make sure you don't spend more than you have." You're not in charge of generating revenue. And so now being in charge of generating revenue and so minimum wage went from $9.47 when I first started and now it's $13.69. We pay $14 an hour, is our minimum. So that's a dramatic, huge, especially when you're talking about hundreds of employees, we have about 300 employees. That's a huge impact on your budget. And it's a good thing. I'm not complaining about it, but we had to make some adjustments to make sure we could handle that increase in wages. Which we've done. But if we're not looking to the future and trying to be more efficient and always on, I guess cutting edge with what we're doing, those expenses will overtake you. Paul Casey: Yeah. Well, let me just follow that rabbit trail. So strategic planning, what does that look like then say, you're always looking forward. Ken Gosney: So yeah, our strategic plan, we're looking at, how do we handle expenses, including wages benefits. We have an excellent benefits package for our employees. It's very reasonably priced and that's very important to us that they can be covered and not break the bank while doing it. Which means we cover a huge portion of that. So all those things were taken to account. Capital projects. So for instance, the Kennewick store that we built a year ago, year and a half ago, that was simply, we were leasing two facilities and it became, lease are expensive. And then when you have to fix a 25,000 HVAC unit, you're actually fixing somebody else's HVAC unit. You're putting in a brand new one and you're just paying for all of it and you don't really, it's not yours. Ken Gosney: So we started looking at building and building turned out to be cheaper substantially than leasing the two buildings. And at the end of the day, once we have it paid for, it's ours. And then it frees up all that extra money to go into mission. So yeah, I mean, we're talking five, 10, 15 years down the road is how we're looking at things. Your infrastructure has got to be healthy. I mean, we had trucks that weren't running when I first got there. So we looked at ways to get new trucks for our guys to drive. The battery start. So yeah, it's strategic planning involves our board, it involves employees, our leadership team. And we do that, it's typically a three or four year document, but it also is subject to change if COVID happens or some other situation comes up. Paul Casey: So you've got the building, the new buildings on Columbia Center Boulevard. Ken Gosney: It is. Next to Fred's Appliance. Paul Casey: And then the other building in Pasco? Ken Gosney: Yeah. The old K-mart for those that have been around for awhile. Paul Casey: Yes, Kmart. Ken Gosney: Remember that Kmart there? Paul Casey: Great. Just want to give that info. Where everybody needs to go and- Ken Gosney: And then next to Fred Meyer and Richland. Paul Casey: Next to Fred Meyer. There we go. Those are the three. Well, finally, Ken, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing and gaining more influence? Ken Gosney: Well, I would just say don't, don't be afraid to fail. Because you're going to. And you're going to make mistakes and it's okay to say, "I made a mistake." And I go back to when I was first made a principal, the lead principal, my very first staff meeting, it was in this summer, summer was just ending and school was about to start. And one of my assistant principals was in charge, I think it had to do with lockers. I can't really remember. But he was up presenting and something had happened and we had a blow up with some of the staff. They were furious and I totally got it. And as they were talking about it, I was like, "Oh no, we missed that. We didn't catch that. That was going to be a problem." And it was too late. Ken Gosney: And so I had a to make right then and there, because I was off to the side and my assistant was up presenting this part. And so I just stepped up and said, "Hey this is my mistake. I did not consider that and I apologize." And I was ready for this backlash to now come towards me, and I really wanted it to come towards me and off the... Because really I'm the guy in charge. And what happened was the exact opposite. The anger left that room in like three seconds and it turned almost towards compassion where they're like, "We can handle that." And it was never brought up again. It was like, "Okay, we can fix this semester. This is what we'll do to handle it now." And that was a real lesson for me to learn that, you know what? You can't get up and say, "I screwed up," every day, but when you do make a mistake, I think it's important to acknowledge it. I don't think people expect leaders to be perfect. Paul Casey: That's right, yeah. Ken Gosney: And if they do, you're never going to make them happy anyway. But I think most people just want an authentic leader. And I think my advice to any leader, new, young, old whatever is to be yourself. You can steal ideas from other people, but don't try to be other people, because people will see through that. Be authentic, be who you are always lead with integrity, and I think you'll be okay. Paul Casey: Yeah. And apologies build trust. That's a good lesson. That's a good lesson. How can our listeners best connect with you? Ken Gosney: Well, through the Goodwill Industries of the Columbia website. We have email addresses listed on there for all the leadership team. And of course, we live in a great community and we've been super happy with people kept their donations for those three and a half months. And so when we were allowed to reopen, we've always appreciated the support of the community. And we've been here for over 50 years and just really looking forward to many years of being here. It's been awesome. Paul Casey: Yeah. It's still, there's a lot of great thrift stores in town, but I think the common phrase is people like, "Yeah, I'm just going to donate that to Goodwill." That's a great thing to say. Ken Gosney: And if I could just plug real quick. In 2019, we don't have the 2020 numbers yet, but in 2019 donations helped us serve over 5,000 people locally and place 900 people into jobs locally. Paul Casey: That's incredible. Ken Gosney: So those donations make a huge difference. And so again, we've really always appreciated the support, but just know that it does make a huge difference. Paul Casey: Awesome. Well, thanks for all you do to make Tri-Cities a great place, and keep leading well. Ken Gosney: All right, well, thanks for having me. Paul Casey: Let me wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend. If you're looking for something to motivate your employees, and you're probably working remotely, I want to put you on to a YouTube site. Well, I found it on YouTube. It's from snacknation.com. It's 11 insanely powerful and motivational videos for employees. So they've just taken some of these best motivational talks by Brendon Burchard, Daniel Pink, Les Brown, Shawn ACOR, and they've put them in these little bite-sized nuggets that you could play at the beginning of a staff meeting. Paul Casey: So again, it's snacknation.com, 11 insanely powerful and motivational videos for your employees. Again, this is Paul Casey. I want to thank my guest, Ken Gosney from Goodwill of the Columbia for being here today on the Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast. And we want to thank our TCI sponsor and invite you to support them. We appreciate you making this possible so we can collaborate to inspire leaders in our community. Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road to help you make a difference in your circle of influence. As a leader, you are a stage procurer, not a perfumer. Until next time, TGF! Keep Growing Forward. Announcer: Thank you to our listeners for tuning in to today's show. Paul Casey is on a mission to add value to leaders by providing practical and strategies that reduce stress in their lives and on their teams, so that they can enjoy life and leadership and experience their key desired results. If you'd like more help from Paul and your leadership development, connect with him at growingforward@paulcasey.org, for a consultation that can help you move past your current challenges and create a strategy for growing your life or your team forward. Announcer: Paul would also like to help you restore your sanity to your crazy schedule and getting your priorities done every day by offering you his free control-my-calendar checklist. Go to www.takebackmycalendar.com for that productivity tool or open a text message to 72000, and type the word Grown. Paul Casey: Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast was recorded at Fuse SPC by Bill Wagner of Safe Strategies.

Today I’m speaking with guitarist & sometimes frontman, Ken Wohlrob. Ken is never one to sit still, as you will find out. During the pandemic, he’s been forced, like most musicians, to take a hiatus from his two bands, Eternal Black & End of Hope. So Ken decided to start another project called Swarm of Flies. It’s a revolving cast of members and a completely new way of creating music for Ken. He’s released a couple of songs through Bandcamp already and they could not be more different from each other! Each SOF track will be released as a single when it’s completed. You can pick up the first two at Bandcamp. Follow Ken, Eternal Black, & End of Hope on social media. Follow us @PerformanceAnx on social media, too. If you like the shows we’re giving you, consider buying us a cup of coffee. We’ll all split it. There’s no commitment. And subscribe, rate, & review us to help spread the word. Now let’s hear all the buzz about Ken Wolhrob & Swarm of Flies.

All Saints Wake was cancelled this year, to be replaced by the err... less exciting Make It Rain Campaign - let's talk about it. We also read a fascinating interview with Masayoshi Soken, and read your MogMail! MogMail: https://speakersxiv.com/mogmail/ ► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/SpeakersXIV ► Mercandise: https://teespring.com/stores/speakersxiv ► Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SpeakersXIV ► Catch us LIVE on Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/speakersofhydaelyn ► Speakers Discord: https://discord.gg/ATBUccS  

Cameron and Chad share some fun stories about the epic music in Final Fantasy XIV as composed by Masayoshi Soken https://youtu.be/JG7oQT6rnwM?list=PLk-IjiYS7izpJP5K1LSmtniJtRQ3N-WPF

All right, welcome KBMD Health and Gut Check Project bring you COVID Files, episode number one. It's a little bit different setting right now. I am not sitting in front of or next to Ken Brown my partner. What's up, Ken?What's going on Eric? Yeah, you sound a little bit different, but that's all part of it. We are practicing some social distancing.We definitely are. Brown does have a nice brick wall behind him. And I've kind of got one back over here. So if you happen to be looking on YouTube, you can see we've got a wild lamp. Yeah, just in case just in case somebody accuses us of lying. There's two brick walls.Yeah, there's there's definitely two two brick walls. So Brown is...Ken you're sittin' what about 60 miles from me? And but we both been having to stay up to date with the facilities that we served the anesthesia you and gastroenterology you could call it a hospital that's actually handled a patient.We had our first death two days ago from COVID 19. So this is a real thing. I was working in the hospital. This is something that I felt like, it's time although I'm not a virologist, you're not a virologist. Neither one of us are epidemiologists, we do have an obligation as healthcare workers to try and describe everything that we've been reading to get it out to people. So this is something that we cannot ignore meaning as a opportunity and a platform to give some information. Hopefully, we can give something that anybody watching this will at least clarify a few things. That's my goal here is to discuss some of the definitions get into what we're going to look at, should we panic, should we not panic? where's this going? All the things that I asked? Because I spent a lot of time looking at literature, we've got graduate students working for us, we've got nurses working for us, that look up a lot of things. So that's what I want to do in this show today is try and discuss all of it out there. Because the more informed you are, the more that you will be part of the solution. That's the important thing, and realistic, and a healthy amount of fear is appropriate. But not freaking out is the key here.I agree 100%. And something else I've been home just like you have and in between taking care of work and then keeping up with work. And then obviously, having a great amount of family time while being in a social quarantine, you end up consuming a lot of different information. So what I don't want our show today to be is just the personal emotional things only really we want to do exactly what Brown said. And that is move into information that you can use. Top to bottom, we want to explain things from the top level down so that we can we want to get everybody into understanding. There's unfortunately because it's a new novel virus. There's lots of misinformation in terms of what does it do? How is it affecting us and rather than take a guess I think that what Ken has for you here today is lots of up to date information, we're going to try to put it into a, a mode that you can use, accept and improve and protect yourself.Because I think what ends up happening is a lot of people, especially people that are trying to quarantine themselves, or they're staying at home, they do binge social media mediaing Is that right? Where they just kind of get on social media and just binge all of it? And it seems like if you look at that, there's going to be two camps of people. You've got the oh, what's the big deal? Nothing's going on. And I see these videos in Florida where people are playing tug of war on the beach, and there's hundreds of people and I'm just like, ph my goodness. And then it's the no, we're in a zombie apocalypse and they, you know, take all the toilet paper and hand sanitizer from the stores. So the only thing I've learned from that is that apparently zombies really hate toilet paper is the best I can tell about that. They can't stand it.They can't stand it. So the zombie apocalypse if that's the case, throw toilet paper at them. Unlike Walking Dead where you have to like smash them in the brain apparently toilet paper is the biggest defense that you can have against zombie apocalypse. Yeah, we don't this is not this is not an avenue the COVID File Episode One is not an avenue to drive people to go and make a bunch of unnecessary purchases or to go in and hoard things that your neighbor needs. So this is let's stay factual. And honestly, Brian, I'm going to kick it off to you and let you kind of lay out the template now outline on how we're going to address the different things andYeah so you know, normally, I mean, one of the things that I really like to do on Gut Check Project because, you know, joke around and make light of things but I'm having a really hard time making light of this particular thing. So I am neither in the camp that this is oh, what's the big deal and I'm not in the zombie apocalypse, but I do really think that we all need to take this particular thing extremely serious, and we need to get into it. One of the things that I've noticed is a lot of people have trouble with the different terms that are being used in the news. I mean, they get on press conferences, and they just throw these terms out. How is this changing the world? I mean, there are single moms that are waitresses that their restaurant it has been closed. And this is there's a lot of things going on like that. And I've actually, I knew that we were onto something when I've been trying to get an infectious disease doctor to come on the Gut Check project that physically come on for it really kind of ramped up here in the US, and a few of them were like, nah, I'm good. I think I'm gonna lay low and try and separate myself. And, you know, they basically said, you're on your own on this and I'm like, okay, so this is, I'm gonna have to learn about this myself. And I just want to share the information that I have uncovered about my concerns. And so my concerns are what are all these different terms after we get that, you know, how do you actually present? What's going on with the numbers? What are these numbers real? How infective is this? And then I want to get into some good news about what's going on. And that's where a lot of the research is happening. So we can talk about all these things. Because when I asked my nurses, hey, these different terms, what do these mean to you? Most people don't really get it because CNN, and Fox and these different news stations, they interchange all these names. And so let's start with that. Let's learn the four virus related terms so that everybody's on the same page, because when you read medical literature, they refer to it as one way when you listen to the news, they refer to it, and then they lump everything into COVID19. So let's just start with this. So the definitions, SARS, CoV2, so when people when scientists talk about this, they always talk about as the SARS CoV2, you'll hear infectious disease doctors refer to it as that. It is a type of Corona virus. In the beginning when everybody kept saying this is a Corona virus virus you Google it and I remember I've had friends and stuff go, what's the big deal? It causes a cold like symptom. Well, the thing is, that's a family of viruses, the Corona the reason why when they first came out, they said this was a novel Corona virus, which was not the word that they should have used. That is the word that infectious disease doctors would say they should have said we have a scary Corona virus here. That would have been catching people's attention a little bit more but novel Corona virus meant that it was a different type of coronavirus. So in that family this Corona virus is the SARS CoV2 two because it is a SARS meaning as severe acute respiratory Syndrome type Corona virus like SARS CoV nothing in 2003. That's how come these names are so confusing. So it's SARS CoV2 is this virus, which the closest thing we can relate it to, is SARS Cov, which was in 2003. So that's the virus. The current virus is not called COVID 19. COVID 19 is the infectious disease caused by this virus. So SARS CoV2 is the actual virus, and it owns it basically owes its name to its genetic similarity to the original virus, the SARS CoV. So that is short for severe acute Respiratory Syndrome Corona virus 2. So that's the definition that's the actual virus. Corona virus. Corona viruses are this big family. SARS CoV is the 2003 one SARS CoV2 is the novel Corona virus that we're dealing with. So that's the guy that we're actually dealing with. COVID19 is the disease that you get from this. Currently there are seven Corona viruses that can cause human disease. With the three most severe being the SARS MERS, which is the Mediterranean one and then COVID19.And just for clarification, the D itself does mean disease. So it is CO for Corona VI for virus and then D for disease and then 19, I believe is assigned because it was first discovered at the end of 2019.That's exactly right. So this is exactly what like what we're saying when we first discovered human immunodeficiency virus, and then you would develop Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome AIDS. So it's very similar to that where you can there's the virus, it causes this disease, and so CoV...so COVID19 is the infectious disease caused by the SARS CoV2 virus. What's alarming is that as a much higher fatality rate than the flu, so a lot of people were saying I don't really understand more people died of the flu, more people died of the flu because the flu is more ubiquitous. If this thing takes off, then you're gonna have a much higher mortality rate. What the people don't really well, now everybody starting to understand and...so I mean, by the way, everything changes daily. I've listened to a lot of experts. And they're like, as of March 19, this is what we know, because they're freely admitting that as of March 22, we may have something new information on this. So what we do know is that it's the incubation period is quite long, which is why it spreads so easily because you may not have any symptoms. And then you're out there looking and feeling healthy and not taking any precautions, and then you get in contact with somebody, and we're going to talk about that a little bit later. Same reason why we're doing the social isolation, we both feel great. We're not doing it because we have a fever or we have a cough or anything bad's going on. We're doing it because we understand that you can already be infected and keep spreading it. So we're gonna sit there and do this. So I'm gonna now I'm going to quiz you because you've been doing a lot of reading. So how does the typical presentation happen when somebody is exposed to the SARS CoV2 virus?Typical presentation, and I guess you're asking me if somebody happens to have been infected, and now they're complaining of symptoms, is that what you're talking...?Correct. What is what are the typical symptoms people should be looking out for?The first thing, or most common, I believe is just a mild fever, followed by a little bit of discomfort and malaise. If they then later in developing something along the lines of a shortness of breath is going to be a key player, which hopefully at that point, the person has then decided that they need to seek help, but unfortunately, the way that I've been reading the timeline, oftentimes people are just simply not going until the progression grows. And if I understand correctly, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but what we're looking at by the time that symptoms generally set up is about a five day play out from the first time that somebody experiences a fever, and unfortunately waiting until the fifth day before seeking to find out if the cause of the fever happens to be related to this particular Coronavirus may be too late for those who are somewhat compromised, because the development of shortness of breath is the early stage of and we'll get into it, but the inflammation and bring it down to the lung tissue. And that begins a small little snowball that turns into a big avalanche of different things that we'll get into here in a moment. But it's interesting and I don't want to walk backwards here but you said what is the presentation the unfortunate part is the once someone becomes infected and then becomes contagious to the world around them before they show symptoms, that that five day stretch could take off after the second day they've been exposed, or can wait all the way until it looks like the 14th day. And unfortunately for the human race, we may be those particular people may be infectious or contagious to the world around them for up to 14 days without ever knowing it, spreading the virus.Absolutely. So we're gonna get into that because then we're going to talk about the epidemiology and why this is a little bit frightening if we all don't do our part, right. So the bottom line is you're exactly right sore throat, malaise, fever. In 80% of the infected people we believe right now, that symptoms include this kind of mild situation, we're going to call that mild so a lot of people think they had a small cold or they had the slight flu or whatever. 20% of the people, you're going to end up with a 20% of the people, you're going to end up with a more serious respiratory infection, which is pneumonia. Now approximately 2 to 3% of those people will will die. And if you end up with a severe pneumonia, and a severe inflammatory reaction, then what will happen is that if you end up getting bad enough to go on a ventilator, we're seeing that 86% of those people die. So the people that do get sick get really sick. So, yesterday, I was actually preparing this and this is one of the things so when I sit there and watch these videos in Florida of people saying, man, it's not a big deal and I say Florida because somebody sent me a video of people in spring break in Florida. I'm not trying to bash Florida in any way. So I get on a website where I can sit there and kind of track these things sort of real time. Yesterday, March 19 the Corona virus cases were 236,728...236. Today, 266,000. 30,000 people have been diagnosed since yesterday.It's a logrith...it's a logarithmic growth.Oh, yeah. And we're gonna get into that why because I think that's where the real it's not that the science the science of the of the virus and everything is super. If you're a virologist, it's interesting and everything, but when you and this is an epidemiologist's, nightmare slash, the thing that they went to school for. So a lot of them are geeking out, they're doing all these modeling and all these other things that are going out there. So there was 9,828 deaths yesterday. Today, we're up to 11,186. As far as the US yesterday, we had 11,348 cases today, 16,000, 5000 cases 16,491. The death toll went from 171 to 224. So the US here's the good news is that up until just about a week ago, the US fatality rate was around 3%. Because and this is kind of what's going to happen when we diagnose more people. Now it's down to 1.5% what that means is rescreening more people, people that normally wouldn't even go get screened are going to do this. So but you contrast that to Italy, that over the past three days, the death percentage was around 6%. And then just yesterday, it was 8%. You were gonna say something?No, no, that's I was just pointing out I mean, it's unfortunately their, their rate versus versus diagnosis is actually moving in the wrong direction over the last 48 hours.Yes, it is. And so Italy is and the the really scary part is, is I sent a graph to all our team members that we were outpacing Italy with our cases, at the at the day to day rate, and I get that we have a higher population and all these other things people can argue that but it'sBut I will say in the balance and it is hard. Just as you and I wanted to always present things in balance. The hard part is we have a limitation of testing capacity just as much as we do carrying capacity. And the hard part is is where are we going to get to the point of growth in number equals the sample, and by the sample the number of people in the United States, so it isn't nearly as alarming to me and probably not to you either Ken to watch the number of diagnoses skyrocket it probably on the on the on the front end? It's just that we're testing more people. It's just where is our ratio and our rate going to fall for morbidity and unfortunately, also mortality? Because I don't know. But testing is going to be imperative for to grow.We're going to talk about that because some new data has come out about the testing. As I said, day to day Remember, this is a world wide issue. So every single day scientists from China scientists from South Korea from France from Spain from Italy, Everybody's collaborating, and everybody's pulling their data. And we're learning more and more and more on a daily basis, but we're going to talk about the testing. What we do know is that the doctors in Italy described that most patients displayed this bilateral interstitial pneumonia. So unlike getting a pneumonia, where you have it, so typically what happens is if you have pneumonia, it's an infection, it will, in fact, a portion of the lobe of your lung or a whole lobe, but basically you have the rest of your lungs to compensate. Here, it's both sides, and it's in everything. And when that happens is bilateral interstitial pneumonia, meaning that it's on well, I'm not going to get into the pathology of it, but basically, the cells get infected, they die and then we lose the ability to produce surfactant. Surfactant is the lubrication that allows your cells, your alveoli to exchange oxygen, and this is a little bit more in your wheelhouse with your anaesthesia. Why don't you comment on that?Yeah, no, it's, it's it's exactly what I had some experience managing for several years early on. And oftentimes people that fall into this category long before Coronavirus lent itself to, to this epidemic here there was a situation or a diagnosis called ARDS or acute respiratory distress syndrome. And typically, the way to best describe it is it's almost like a localized immune autoimmune disease for your lungs. It happens because as the cells begin to break down and we all have these little bitty finger like cilia on our lungs, right, or to help with gas exchange and to hold a surfactant to break down the fluids, so that we can exchange it. The surfactant is breaking you down what happens is is that are immune cells which should.Eric, just really quick backup to right before you said Sir fact that you froze on me and I missed what you said, what were you saying but right right before the surfactant thing,Sorry about that it's surfactant level, it should be breaking down the fluid to allow for better gas exchange. And what's happening is our immune system in this particular state of ARDS is breaking down cells faster than they can be carried away. And when that happens, we have fluid buildup, it dilutes the surfactant and I don't want to talk over anyone's head. But essentially, our immune system begins to attack both bad cells and good cells, allowing for too much degradation or breakdown of our lungs and the tissue that we exchange the gas with. And then things begin to build up. And essentially you begin to drown from the inside we think of drowning or, you know, bringing in water and being being submerged not being able to breathe this being an awful existence. But imagine the fluid building up from in your lungs, you you're not consuming the fluid. It's here it's inside. So, pneumonia itself is kind of like that. But just as Ken said, if we catch it early enough, it's it's isolated. That happens in one lobe or one area of the lung with ARDS, which is what this could turn into, it happens all over the lungs all over the body. And what we do with an ARDS patient, is we tried to ventilate them by putting a tube in, we secure the airway, and what we tried to do is more or less force gas exchange by using what we call positive pressure ventilation, by blowing air through the tube, and so that we can force it into the lungs and then it can be exchanged. And then what ends up happening with those same patients is, is we normally would think of laying in bed on our backs and our head slightly raised. The lungs themselves can become damaged if the fluid is allowed to just basically sit there for a while. And the only way to keep the air movement in there is to rotate the bed. So oftentimes you'll see an ARDS patient who is intubated. And there'll be on their back side that they face down. And they have to continually be rotated to preserve the integrity of the lungs and actually to facilitate to facilitate good gas exchange. And I'll stop there with the management of the ARDS patient because you and I both know somebody else who does even the next level, which is the ECMO and we can get into that.Yeah, we well...so here's the problem with all that is that we know that from the account from the Italian doctors and our Chinese physicians, even young patients were developing this interstitial pneumonia and they were developing very dramatic, shocking pulmonary situations with this bilateral interstitial pneumonia. Now, the mortality of the critically ill patient of a SARS CoV2 pneumonia is extremely high. If you end up on a ventilator, it's 86%. Now, Eric, what you're talking about is the highest level of care. We're going to get into why almost nobody is getting these very isolated, very unique beds that can actually do this. And we know...I'm glad you said that. And well, what do I want to I want to just restate what you just said, what I just described is if you happen to be the most serious, that would be the optimal situation that you would be fortunate enough to end up in.That would be there's two, maybe two beds like that in a hospital in a large hospital. And when somebody is at that point, you call up for that bed, and you walk in and you watch this incredible science going on where it's the physiology and the pathophysiology at this battle. But we're we're going to get into this and that is the real issue is that getting the appropriate care to everybody. Remember that a lot of these Chinese doctors that first well the whistleblower that first discovered it other doctors. 40 year old doctors were dying from this. So this is and there were doctors in a hospital dying. So this is this is actually very that's what kind of perked my interest several weeks ago where I went. And I admittedly was the person that was like, why are we all getting all worked up about this because I know and I was trying to defuse the situation and be like, this looks like A Boy That Cried Wolf by the media. It's not a big deal, quit running out buying, you know, all this other stuff. And then I started reading about stuff going on in China and I'm like, holy cow, wait a minute, doctors and nurses are dying. So this is a big deal. So one of the things that I really started looking into, I'm like, okay, the only comparison we have to this is the SARS of 2003. Now, the reason why we didn't have to really deal with that, except pretty much stayed in the we're gonna call it the eastern side of the world. So a lot of these countries like South Korea, that have been so prepared for SARS CoV2 is because they...this is round two for them. They they saw it coming. They had testing kits, they did quarantine immediately. And they really put this thing on lockdown because they've already been through this, because the thing about SARS 2003 is that the mortality rate was really high. It was like 20% it was brutal. But we have now shown that this SARS CoV2 scientists believe is 1000 times more infective than the SARS 2003. And this is due to a lot of different reasons but due to the high mutation rate of the spike proteins, everybody's seen the example of the little spiky ball protein that the the media loves to play. This virus is showing a pattern of much higher infectiousness so a study released in released by some scientists in Germany on March 8, in 2020 found that this particular coronavirus could be found in the throat well before symptoms...well before symptoms. So what they're seeing is that there could be a huge increase in viral load in the back of the throat, way before any symptoms show up. So upon taking throat swabs from these patients, then they tried to show that all the results from day one to five tested positive for COVID19. But the high viral load from these early throat swabs indicated potential viral replication in the upper respiratory tract earlier. This means that you can have active viral replication in the throat during the five, first five days, and it will continue just like you explained for 14 days, which is why if people are going around, I feel fine. And I'm, you know, by the time we're asking if you have a fever, we're learning this is why it's there. Now, everybody's like what makes it so inffective. This gets a little bit hairy. And Eric, you and I have talked about this because we've tried to figure it out. I was just on PubMed looking at some different studies and one of the studies was discussing specifically the ACE-2 receptor. And people may be talking about this, but it appears that this particular virus binds to at least the H2 receptor, and possibly a Furan receptor. And the names of them are irrelevant. But the thing that's interesting is that both of these are kind of ubiquitous in the body, but they're heavily concentrated in the lung, and in the GI tract. So now we're seeing that you can get this both through your upper respiratory system and your gastrointestinal tract. One of the things a study just came out, Dr. Idim and I were talking about this this morning, because I just saw it this morning. This is how fast it changes. You get on the news and you're like, oh my gosh, it appears that 20% of people with COVID19 will actually gastrointestinal symptoms before they actually show the upper respiratory type symptoms. So this is what I mean. And it was no joke in the beginning when we were talking, protecting your gut is super important. So this is why a gastroenterologist is talking about COVID19, I at least have a role to protect your gut to make sure that that line of defense is taken care of. So what will happen is, is that this virus super tricky, will bind to this H2 receptor, and then it kind of knocks on the cell door and then the cell lets it in. And then the virus comes in, and basically hijacks a cell and lets the cell become the manufacturing plant for its own mRNA or its own RNA. And by having that happen, then it can develop more viruses. This is actually how the virus works. And so people argue, is it a living organism is not a living organism. I think most people have always felt that they're not living. But the fact that they can do these things they just need. It's the classic, or the most perfect example of a parasite. They hijack a cell, they get the cell to do what it wants. And that's how these viruses work.They're just kind of brainless. I mean, they you said it best, the mRNA the RNA is what is taken and replicated. And not to get too scientific. But I've always learned that viruses, although we don't say that they are completely unliving. They're not really living organisms. They're just, they're just RNA in a strand, they're not even DNA. They're just programmed to go in and disrupt a cell and basically hijack the replication capacity of a cell and make it to what it wants to become, which unfortunately, is usually to the demise of the cell itself.Yeah. And so in the most simplistic way, imagine the cell attaching to a lung to a lung cell and it does this then that lung cell gets taken over and it starts producing the virus. Well eventually that cell dies. And then that's where the cell dies. And it can no longer produce the surfactant can no longer do the other stuff that we're talking about. And then enough of that happens, and then you have this demise of the lung tissue and you cannot aerate. Well, something else happens. If it gets into other tissues, or if it does this, or if you have a healthy immune system, we now know that young people can actually have something called a cytokine storm. So what happens is your body overreacts to that, like your body goes, this is nuts. We've got this viral invasion, we have to get rid of it. And this may be one of the reasons why younger people are having this massive thing. So the only comparison to that is the Spanish Flu of 1918 of the reasons why it was so deadly, is because it actually created the cytokine storm in the most of the people that are infected. So what that means is that people with the healthiest immune systems died-that was 18 to 25 year olds, that's what made that particular flu so devastating.Yeah, I even saw a bar graph, it specifically addressed that almost every pandemic almost on the ends. If you're an infant or very, very old, it's almost where the highest mortality rate is. And for Spanish flu, it's kind of interesting. The ends are spiked. And then it goes down in the middle, it comes right back up into a spike, where we generally have our healthiest population and it was for precisely the same reason you described, it's, it elicits a cytokine storm, which is just people who happen to be in shape and the immune system doesn't know what to do. So it unleashes everything. It's almost like just self destruction.Okay, so that's our basic science class and I'm sure we're gonna get some calls from some neurologists to be like yeah, you missed you almost had it right. But whatever, but this is not we're not getting deep into the science. What we really my my other thing is why do we need to is this a time for some serious caution. And this is the part that I'm gonna get into that is a little bit scary. I'm not the first one to be talking about this. I have been looking at this for quite a while. But now I overheard Governor Cuomo talking about this people, the politicians are discussing all of this, and it's not the death rate. It's the need of the hospital system that is the scary part.Yeah, definitely and needs to the hospital system. And we can get into it. We can get into the specific numbers here just in North Texas. And just to use it as comparison, I think around 80% of our audience that's watching and or listening happens to be in this area. So we'll get into some hard numbers on bed availability, ICU availability, what it is that we currently use without the issues of COVID19 and then where our resources get reallocated if we happen to experience which unfortunately, it looks like we most likely will a surge of patients. Yeah so, so this is not this is not my opinion. Like all things we let's let's talk about some of the science that's out there. So I was listening to Dr. Grewal out of, I think how you say his name out of New York City, and he did some quick calculations. This is actually on the on the Peter Attia, a podcast when he was there. And he was talking about how if they calculated the ICU beds in New York City, and at a growth rate that we're at right now, which we'll get into it, which is called the R-Not, I'll explain that in a second. In two weeks, all of the New York City ICU beds would be taken. Taking it further, a study came out of USA Today yesterday or the day before. It was an analysis that showed if the nation continues to grow at this rate in the effective mount, what R-Not is in epidemiologic terms, it's written as R-0 so you may see it as that or it's pronounced as R-Not that means that one person can infect three people. Right now our R-Not is being described somewhere between 2.8 to like four, let's just say it's three to be due to be a nice round number even at three, if we don't stop this and so whenever people talk about flattening the curve, what they're talking about is the R-Not because we have to change that. So a USA Today analysis show that if the nation continues with this R-Not that we have, there could be almost six seriously ill patients for every existing hospital bed-think about that. Six people needing that hospital bed. Then they got into the whole analysis of based on the data from the American Hospital Association, the World Health Organization is being fairly conservative. It assumes that all 790,000 beds would already be empty, but they're not. Most hospitals are already almost at capacity, with the other stuff that we deal with like heart attacks and strokes and diverticulitis and gallbladder disease and everything else that happens to humans. Car wrecks, trauma. You know, and so then I saw a really scary one, where somebody was saying that if this continues, then we could have essentially 17, including the beds are already counted already there. We could have 17 people waiting for a bed in the whole United States. Now, Germany just published the paper yesterday, this is how fast it changes, like I mean, you just get on and you're like, whoa, they said that they haven't R-Not of two. If it continues like this, that'll be over a million people and they will lose all their ICU beds in 100 days. So if we sit there and say, well, the mortality rate of this and it will continue to decrease as more people get diagnosed, but then if we utilize the health care system, then the mortality rates going to grow exponentially, because the usual stuff can't get in then. So that's two thirds that...I mean, we could literally have 70 people competing for an open bed. And this assumes that we continue with this are not the are not, is based on our social lifestyle. So the reason why we're doing this podcast this way is because we're trying to do our part to break this R-Not of 1:3. If we can get to 1:1 or something less than that, then what we're trying to do is buy a little time by slowing the curve. We need to buy a little time to allow the medical infrastructure to catch up, be prepared or whatever it needs to do, because we are doing a lot of cool things. So you wanna say anything about that?But just in terms of application, so as a young person and even even back when you and I were probably questioning the the seriousness of the new novel Coronavirus or COVID19, however you wish to phrase it about two and a half weeks ago before it really started to get our attention. So in that, in that element we somewhat dismissed it as flu. But the progression of somebody who's sick with flu does not require near the resources. And on top of that, they're, they're contagious stage is usually commensurate about the time they begin to show symptoms so that they know they kind of should remove themselves from public exposure. This is the opposite. And when you find someone who is young and healthy, who most likely will not have terrible symptoms or even know that they are necessarily infected, the younger that they are, here's how it can affect you. Or it can it can affect you not infect you but affect you. So Ken just laid it out why we have all these hospital beds and the different resources that will be made available to somebody if the R-Not continues at a factor of three. Here's some hard numbers with DFW for instance. So in the DFW Metroplex, we have roughly 7.5 million people give or take. And that's that's the rough range, right? In this area, though, and all accounting and not including surgical centers, but high level hospital beds, we have roughly 15,000 beds. Well, that sounds okay. But right now before Coronavirus or COVID diagnoses have been affected or played a part in that. Already, two thirds of those beds are being used. Yeah. So we have less than 5000 beds total. Now that does not include Intensive Care Unit beds. So as it begins to break down the numbers, what we're looking at is roughly 80% of the people that will present and being diagnosed with COVID will be what they call mild to moderate. Even some of those moderate cases. I think it's around 40% of moderate cases will require some hospitalization. Okay, well, that plays into some of the numbers. How long is it hospitalization, roughly two to four days, then you move into the severe that makes up roughly 14% of everybody else who gets diagnosed with COVID. 14% of those people require supplemental oxygen and check in. Their hospital stay typically is lasting almost seven days. Now, that's a week. So 14% of the 80% of seven and a half million we're really starting to press, press out against what we have for a resources. That's not even the worst of it. If you are critical, meaning you get diagnosed with respiratory or organ failure requiring a ventilator, we typically only count an ICU room is one that has the capacity to handle a mechanical ventilator. That's less than 2,000 of those beds. And I can't remember what the current census count is on our ICU beds that are taken right now but I think it's 60%.Did you see how long that if you have COVID19 And you're put on a ventilator, what the average length is?It's almost two and 2.8 weeks, isn't that correct?Yeah, it's somewhere between three to six weeks.So the sad part here is, is it doesn't necessarily if it were in a vacuum and one person were diagnosed with severe COVID, and we could take them and do everything that we were talking about with a typical ARDS patient, we would have the best chance at a great outcome for that particular person. But that's not what we're up against. Now we have, let's just use some some fake numbers, but we have 1,000 beds, but with 5000 people that need them. And as people begin to pile up, even if someone gets there on a Tuesday, and then you get diagnosed on a Wednesday, you're going to have to wait three weeks for that bed. That's where the resources become incredibly stressed. And now how it comes back to those same people who said, well, it won't affect me, I'm too young. If you're in a car wreck, or you happen to be in happen to have just a completely different issue where your gallbladder is is giving you fits or you end up with diverticulitis, or you suddenly have a rectal bleed, or you suddenly get knocked while you're playing sports or whatever. And you require the ICU bed or that high level of acuity, unfortunately, COVID19 now is affecting you or loved one because it's not going to be available.I love how you say that because when you when when people are saying, well, it's not you know, it's not going to bother me, you know that President Trump keeps talking about how he really needs the millennials to be part of this because they have higher or according to him, they're not taking it serious enough. But you're exactly right. If you've got, I mean, I have all my patients that have Crohn's and colitis that are like what happens if I get a flare? What do I do? Well, it's gonna, and you're exactly right, putting in those terms. You're going to be squeezed out. I mean, it would be it would be one of the most horrific tragedies to have somebody die of oh something let's just say. Let's just take it out a little ways here. You said diverticulitis. diverticulitis is an inflammation of a diverticulum, which normally is easily treated. But if it doesn't get treated quickly, then it can form into an abscess then it can perforate, and then you have peritonitis, which leads to septicemia, which leads to death. So something that is completely preventable gets pushed out two weeks to try and get evaluated. And then well, that's a that's now we're...so I hope the whole point is not to do the oh my gosh, it does sound like a zombie apocalypse. But everybody needs to take this as serious as we're making it sound because the numbers when you listen to experts, these epidemiologists talk, they do not sugarcoat and they get very, very real, like the numbers you're talking about. Those are easily, you know, extrapolated and you can look at it, it's not like it's not Eric Rieger's opinion. This is just what's out there.No it is what's out there and those are the resources and in fact, when we were doing an inventory of what could be made shift ICU beds just to kind of give a glimpse on what what's being discussed in terms of people who typically do elective procedures, I do elective procedures predominantly, one of the surgery centers that cover happens to have four ORs. Each one of those ORs has an anesthesia machine. A lot of people don't know that's an anesthesia machine really is just a big ventilator, that has the ability to entrain volatile agents to help keep people asleep. Well, those four ventilators now, we now have makeshift ICU beds that's becoming a part of the count, which has never been a part of the community count of ICU beds before. So some of these surgery centers will be makeshift, more than likely COVID patient care units are where we will be able to monitor these people and give us more capacity, but it still won't be enough if we're not all on board to help stop the spread.So that is a lot of heavy science. That is a lot of doom and gloom. Let's get into some good news. So because I'm yeah, I'm hopeful we are going to get through this. This is a worldwide problem. And you've got some of the smartest scientists in the world collaborating together for the first time. So here's just a few of the things and this as golly I don't remember when I was this is a few days ago so who knows what's all going on right now. But I just mentioned that the US death curve went from 3% down to 1.5%. So that's awesome. China has flattened their curve as of yesterday, I believe that they did not report any new cases. So today is March 20th. Um in the Peter Attia podcast that I listen to, they were discussing that it could be that the corona test could only be 68% positive. And they were really scared about how devastating that would be if there were false negatives going out. A study just got published out of China. So a lot of this data that we're getting is the Chinese scientists doing retrospective studies and the Italians and the in the Iranians that have are now being able to look at the data that they have, and they're giving it to the world. There's, nobody's saying, oh, well, this is our information. And so but a study just published out of China was reporting a false positive rate of close to 40%. So the good news is, if that is true, what that means is that we're at least telling many people that you're positive quarantine yourself for two weeks, and so you're giving them a stamp of you have to be isolated. We don't like false positives or false negatives, but if you're going to have a poor sensitivity test, make sure that it is a It is a false positive in this particular case. So that people self quarantine. I believe that there are multiple vaccine trials going on. I think that US had its first human participant, and I believe Israel has human participants. Everybody's saying, when's that gonna happen? Well, as you know, as well, as I do that, you know, these vaccines probably are not going to be available for a long time. So that isn't something to hold our breath. But there are a few other things that makes it somewhat helpful. It appears that there are the President has been, well, not just the president, most government leader or most countries are really encouraging the private sector to get involved. And I think at least in the US, there are about 35 companies and academic institutions that are racing to create a vaccine, racing to see if there's some sort of treatment. So we know that there are studies being done on animals where they're looking at antibodies. So there's a lot of really exciting stuff. Now, some of the things that are going on, very hopeful is that some countries are using a drug. I believe it's by Gilead that was initially made for Ebola called Remdesivir. And they're combining that with a very old drug called hydroxychloroquine, which is called Plaquenil. Plaquenil yeah.Yeah. And they're seeing some success which is awesome. In fact, University of Minnesota is doing the first trial where they're going to do prophylactic hydroxychloroquine, called plaquenil versus placebo, and people that have had passive exposure. So that's another exciting thing. So if we can get people on this earlier, we may be able to take COVID survivors COVID19 survivors and spin down their answers. antibodies and give antibodies to other people so that you can do that they're doing that right now with macaque monkeys. I saw that that was going on. But all of this, the reason why that that's hopeful is because we need to buy time. And the only way to buy time is to you have to have this social isolation. I don't want to use the word social isolation. And we're going to get into that as the next part of this. Because what you need is the social or you need the physical quarantining. We know that social isolation, now I'm going to use that in a negative way, can also lead to, we've done we've talked about this on the gut check project that loneliness can be as deadly as smoking. And that's why I want to make sure that we end this on kind of an up note, and we know that social isolation can actually lead to inflammation. So we went through the science of it. We talked about the epidemiology. We talked about some of the doom and gloom we talked about some of the new things coming. I want to now discuss the fact that you and I are self quarantined. And as much as we can as healthcare workers, we cannot be completely self quarantined. I've been working in the hospital all week, tried to get in I've got I mean, I've, I, I've made sure that I've got alcohol wipes on me so that I can wipe down my phone I make sure that I've got I'm not hoarding, I'm not hoarding. I'll go to the hospital and say, give me a few alcohol wipes and give me a some some bleach things. I'm working really hard to not put the phone to my face and trying to do Bluetooth thing so I can talk that's another really important thing. We know that the everybody's talking about social isolation, but your phone may be a vector because we know that the virus can live from 72 to 96 hours on steel and plastic. It appears to not survive very well on porous material, like cardboard. And they can live in the air for up to three hours. So, you think you wash your hands and everything and then you put your phone down on a on a metal table. And then you pick it up, put your hand on it, put it right to your face, that's just like shaking someone's hand and slapping your face. So keep that in mind. Our phones are a vector of vector being something that can carry this,You know what's kind of interesting is that self quarantine allows you to let your guard down if you are in your same environment all the time with your same immediate family etc. You really can get to the point where you've been around the same people so really self quarantine with your home is going to allow you to not to overthink that kind of stuff so that whenever you leave, you become vigilant in the period of time that you run out to the to the grocery stores. Don't feel like that, just simply being you that you have to completely change and I've got to rinse my hands every three minutes before I go this direction. No, limit your exposure to the outside world. And that's when you would be on the most heightened alert. And it was interesting. I was listening to a radio show yesterday. And my wife and I were laughing because he was talking about how whenever he had to run to the grocery store, he found himself having to go to the bathroom. And I thought this was very keen. We've always been taught how to use the bathroom to wash your hands. But he said, as I walked into the bathroom, I realized before I touch the button on my jeans, wash my hands smarter and do my own pants because I'm going home with these pants. And so it's that kind of level of breakdown. And he even admitted had he not been practicing his own quarantine And then on the high end alert, he just would have been doing the same routine that he had been doing all along. So. That's a that's a really good point. We're gonna...I want to get into this but I want to play this because my friend, my childhood friend Brian Abood, it's his birthday today. So we're going to do a virtual birthday party and celebrate his birthday. She sent this to me and it's a I think it's going around social media. But basically, let's, let's hope it plays well.Because of Corona virus, you are going to be quarantined, but you have a choice, you A. quarantine with your wife and child, or B eaten.She didn't allow me in so I thought it was kind of funny. So she was saying that that's pretty much.Pretty much all there is to it.And I'm sure he was implying that Brian said that but that makes sense. Wash your hands before you touch your your jeans. So alright, so we're gonna end on a happy note. So I was listening to some other podcasts and I was reading the Washington Post article. And the the main weapon to combat this disease is social distancing. But that doesn't mean that we have to have social isolation. This is where I want to engage with everybody that listens to this, so that we can come up with ideas to try and make it so that you're not socially isolated. Because, you know, we...on social media, we see all these negative things all the time. But the reality is the majority of people, most of us are compassionate people. There's something called a carnival of compassion when there is a tragic event. You see it people after a hurricane people come out for volunteers, they want to help their neighbor, they want to help people they don't know. Carnival compassion, generosity feeds, with, you know, feeding kids and things like that. Most of us really feel that and so, the paradox when there's a tragedy is that we ultimately want to help and we have this impulse to be near somebody and hug them and say, you know, I want to help you, but that is exactly what we cannot do. So this, the other thing is, is that when we are in this social isolation there are people that may have some long term stigma from this social isolation like psychological fallout, so to speak. So there, like I said, there's studies showing that you can have increased inflammation, we know increased inflammation, you can have increased brain inflammation, which can lead to anxiety and depression and things like that. So I think here on the Gut Check Project, we want to end with trying to figure out a way that we don't have to make quarantine lonely, if you know what I mean.I do, I do know that I've got I've got a couple ideas that I haven't even told you about already.Well, I want to hear him here. I'll just finish up on kind of the science that I was looking at. People are people that are most physically susceptible to COVID19 or to SARS CoV2 are the same people that are most susceptible to loneliness. And so it's that double edged sword. So I purposfully you know, I called my mom today she's 78. And I was like, are you quarantine are you doing that? And she'd said, it's all these other things. So, you know, this is the thing that we all have in common now we all have this in common with everybody around the world. Don't get into this idea of panic scrolling through social media and overwhelming yourself, we need to intentionally interact. So I told you that today, I'm going to have a virtual birthday party. So that's how I'm going to intentionally interact. So I'm going to make sure that we that me and my friends stay connected. It's his birthday. Let's do this. I've got a green screen that will I don't want to take down my brick wall. That thing's I just had that thing put up a few months ago. But I'm gonna do a green screen, maybe put a little club back there, you know, and we can pretend like we're doing bottle service in Vegas or something. But anyways, that's kind of that's kind of what I want to do. And I want to see if our community can help us figure out how we can intentionally interact. What was your idea?Two things. One, you and I are communicating through zoom. So zoom.us, they're not paying us a penny. But if you ever just want to connect with a neighbor or get a bunch of different people on, it's free. If you want to have a conversation, I think up to what, 10 minutes or 15 minutes.40 minutes on the free account.Yeah, so 40 minutes, you can just invite whoever you want. Limited limited number of invites is the only thing about that. So I think you just have a few here we've got our business account. So we can this is what I'm going to do when I host my birthday party with Brian here shortly that we're going to, you know, invite however many people you want. SoThe other thing is is and I just discovered it today. So I'm going to place a couple of orders through Amazon to get a couple of small things that I'm missing but I'm a musician and a want to link up with some other guys. It'd be fun to jam with and we can't go to each other's home but there's a service that also isn't paying us a penny. It's called jamkazam.com. If you're a musician, you can actually link up and it allows you to real time jam and play music with people as long as you all have a good hard wired connection so I can't wait to get the stuff that I need to plug into the computer and and do that. So find ways to make community happen and in fact did you happen to see in Italy there were some people that a week and a half ago they're in their village, they were standing out on the balconies keeping their more than six foot distance banging tambourines and seeing I mean, singingYeah, it brought a lot of hope, brought a lot of hope. Absolutely. Yeah. So we want to do so anybody that's that's listening to this, please hit us up. And certainly, any ideas if you're like, you know what we're going to host a, I want to host a virtual coffee shop thing or whatever, but book club, we can do whatever. You know, I went on a quick side note, I read, let's pr...Steven McWilliams gave me a book to read when Lucas and I were in Panama. We were Panama the country and I read a memoir book with not medical, not business, because that's the first time I've read something non medical or non business in a long time. And it was called Let's Pretend This Never Happened. And I was laughing out loud. And then him and I were talking, we were doing a business call on zoom. And he had read the book, and then suddenly him and I were joking about it. And I'm like, oh, book club, virtual book club. There's a great way to go with it.No, that's awesome. Earlier, I was listening to Panama, by Van Halen. And that's kind of all there is to that story.Well, you can do that on your jamkazam, you can rock out some Panama there. So it would be interesting to bring the casual. So a lot of times and you and I do this with the show, you know, we kind of stress the show a little bit. We want to make sure that everything is tight and fine tuned, but in human interaction. It's never like that the casualness of the interpersonal play. We could start doing this. As we get better at it. We can start doing this virtually just kind of sitting there and you know if I have dinner with somebody where you don't have to be talking the whole time and it just be like, you know like you would with your, with your significant other or whoever you're not always just sitting there telling the coolest story ever. You're just taking a moment taking a bite. Look, I'm going broccolis good. Yeah. What did you do here? Oh, I added.Now that's awesome. Well, this is the first installment of COVID19 file for Gut Check Project. There's going to be plenty more to come we'll, we'll keep updating we didn't want to get out too early from the gate feeling like that we we wanted to have enough information to navigate the waters. There's been a lot out there before. I feel like that Ken and myself don't comfortable passing anything along. So let us know many of y'all have been keeping in touch. Just got three emails today from people who enjoy the fact that they could order What they could order obviously keeping your social distancing, but order or not does not matter. Let's keep the conversation Well, if you have questions that you want to know specifically or if you have a story, let us know. If it affects you directly, let us know. How are you handling it? How are you managing? So rounding out like. Well, yeah, the only thing that I want to add that I didn't want to get into today because clearly there was a lot to cover. This is the first foundation, but like something else everybody wants to ask me, what supplements are you taking? And I'm oh, as always, let's do a little disclaimer. I am a physician but I am not your physician. And so any advice we give here is strictly just an opinion and you're not to take my advice as medical advice speak with your physician about this and whatever it is that the the the typical jargon that has to be said of this is a show this is for entertainment, but it's also for information. So whenever reach...I think very clearly your your research, my research, these are not really our opinions, these are based off of us digging through a lot of research, at least during this period on these kind of things. You and I do have very strong opinions about a lot of other things. But we're not gonna do that here. So what I would like to do is a show based on the science of what supplements have been shown to affect different viruses and things like that is it a one to one translation? Nobody knows it's too early, but there's some different things that I think we could be doing.Definitely. Now, that'll be a great show in and of itself. And we'll back up everything that we say, with external science. It won't just be coming from, from Brown or myself for sure.Yeah. So hey, Eric, I appreciate you taking the time to do a different format. We're on the zoom. I do. I do miss your empty chair right here. But fortunately, I have a large cutout of you that I did that I printed a big picture of your head sits right there.That's okay. Because you're in the periphery. You can't see anything around me but my son's right here and he's trying to be really funny. Over hereYou think you're funny.I do think I'm funny.A boxing nun.That's what happens that's what happens away from the camera.Well, you could go ahead and let him know that I don't find that funny at all because I grew up Catholic and I've had some nuns punch me.That's gonna do it for the first installment of COVID files. It won't be long till we get the next one out we'll keep touch through email. If you are not a member already of the KBMD community just head up to gutcheckproject.com like and share you can sign up to have emailed information out to you. As more stuff becomes available through the weekend and into next week. We will definitely keep you abreast of all this information. One other thing also is that we're doing I'm really ramping up my telemedicine practice. So if if you happen to live in the state of Texas right now, I think they're opening the borders but we we are doing a lot of telemedicine and so just to recap because kind of scary. The virus is real. We need to do our part, there's a lot of really good things on the horizon, we just need to buy some time on this. And the only way to do that is to do what we're doing, which is stay your distance away. It is a highly infective virus. But we're going to get through this, we're going to get through it as a country. And when we come out the other side, we're going to learn so much more on the science of everything. There's never been such a collaboration of all scientists worldwide. Just saying here, what do you got? This is what I got. I think we're going to come out so much better as a human race as we get through this.Yeah I certainly hope so. I really do. So installment two, there is no schedule we're having Paul push this out as soon as he can get his hands on it. So we'll just keep 'em coming.But the biggest thing is, please stay in touch with us. If you've got questions. We've got we've got access to a lot of great scientists, a lot of good literature and I want to hear, I want to see you know what I'd like to see, I'd like to see people sending us pictures or small videos of them doing social interaction during quarantine.Yeah, send us your ideas.Even if even if you just spend all day playing with the boxing nun.I didn't get I did not get Mac's permission to do that but right, well, that's gonna I think that's gonna do it for this particular chapter. We'll be back in the next one we'll go through the science of keeping yourself safe with supplementation, etc. And then we'll just do another update to see where we're at.Let's do it. Stay safe, everybody.

All right, it is now time for episode number 35. We are here at the Gut Check Project. I'm Eric Rieger with your host Dr. Ken Brown. We've got someone special here today right between us.Well, we are in some place special. We are.We're not in our home base.We aren't in the home base.We are in a basement in Austin. We are.Because we heard that this special guy, Ron Klabunde, the founder of Replenish Foundation and Generosity Feeds which you and I are huge fans. Definitely.You took your family to go do that. We went and did that. And what he's doing is amazing. And we decided to do a mobile show here. We had the opportunity to track him down. He's busy. He's an important person.Ron. Obviously we're going to introduce you-the founder as Replenish Foundation as well as Generosity Feeds but we came down here specifically for an event that you're hosting. Without further ado, Ron, just kick it off and then we're going to after you tell us what we're doing here today, we're going to back it up on how you even got here.Sounds good. So tonight, we are bringing the who's who of Austin together highly curated group of 100 people. And basically we're going to party on purpose we call it POP Austin "party on purpose." Too many parties happen it's just a party, right? What if we bring some meaning to that because all of us are looking for more meaning in life. So we've got the top people in Austin coming together to party on purpose. Obviously we know when the right people are in the room magic happens.Definitely. Happens from a business standpoint happens interpersonally. And then there's the purpose side. So tonight, now what you guys don't even know is that you're showing up and everyone there is going to have a chance to create about 2,500 meals for local kids struggling with hunger. And then flow in the middle of the party. Oh, that's awesome.That's awesome. And then on top of that, we're working to raise $60,000 tonight to help to help feed 50,000 children across America who are struggling with hunger and empower 64,000 volunteers that we're already working with, as an ongoing force for good. So there's our purpose side: party on...Say that one more time. So tonight, this party that we're all gonna have fun at, everybody's...Live band...everything.It's gonna be entrepreneurs coming together, talking, sharing ideas, but you're going to feed how many people you're going to raise how much money and this is a party on purpose. I love that. Yeah, yeah. So there will be about 2,500 meals created tonight throughout the course of the night. And then, and then we're raising money to help feed 50,000 children in 29 states across America, and then empower our 64,000 volunteers is an ongoing force for good.So we can't emphasize this enough here. So Ron and...Ken and I met Ron around a year ago through the Baby Bathwater network. And not long after we ran into each other you invited Ken and I to participate in the Dallas Generosity Feeds and we looked at it and we thought, have no idea what this is. And just like Ken said, I was able to get my family-his was actually out of town playing tennis. But loaded the kids up, met Ken. My wife and I we got together and we packed 11,000 meals in about an hour and 20 minutes.That's dead on.And it goes to it went to all those kiddos who simply correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't get meals on the weekend. They happen to be on a free lunch Monday through Friday right? But they don't have anywhere to turn for the food so kind of tell us a little bit about Generosity Feed.So, Generosity Feeds is kind of our...it is our premier initiative. It's what gave us influence and credibility across the country. It's It's why we have 64,000 volunteers today and we've helped feed over 170,000 children across America. I mean, it's crazy what's happened in...with this deal. And I can certainly give you the backstory on how that even started at some point here but but yeah, you came to our event in Dallas, by the way, our first event in Dallas.Oh, nice. Oh, was it?Yeah, our first event our first event there with you. And 11,000 meals created in less than two hours. You probably had about 300 people at that one event alone.That was...we were packed.So that was the thing that I was super impressed. I showed up. Everybody there showed up kind of deer in the headlights like, what do we do? And you just you have one thing in common? We're all here to help. So people are like, Hi, I'm Joe. Hi. I'm so and so. These are my kids. This is my wife. He's like, yeah, we're here to help feed some people. Everybody had the same mission. It was so cool. Because suddenly you have a purpose.Yeah, a shared purpose. A shared purpose. Yeah.Yeah. Well, and the beauty of this is it's these 300 people are coming from all aspects of the city. This is the business sector coming together with the nonprofit sector coming together with the local schools. And you probably even had some, some some politicians standing in the room. It but it goes further than that. Then you have people of all ages. You have kids with you-kids as young as three, sometimes moms or dads carrying the child on their chest, right as they're creating meals. And then we've had we had a lady up in Washington State 97 years old, helping start so it's crazy, right? But then it's beyond age, then it's it's the social economic difference. Because Ken you very likely were standing next to a single mom, whose child three weeks later was going to receive the meals that you were creating. Really? Yeah. And you didn't know it.Did not know I talked, everybody that was standing next to me. We formed now the beauty is Generosity Feeds does a great job of the logistics of getting the food that's there. This is how we're going to pack this how we're going to do it. It's a well run business. Absolutely. It's a very well run business and we're going to get into this because to have a good nonprofit...You better have a good business. You better have a good business. Well and I'll even add that it's good business for businesses to be a part of and I think I've shared this with you in the past and Ken you knew it but when we went to go and be a part of Generosity Feeds and of course I'm gonna say this several times because if you're ever interested and Generosity Feeds is appearing in your neck of the woods. Gather your friends and your family and go be a part of it. You'll spend two hours helping out tons and tons of kiddos who just simply need a meal.Having fun. Music. Yeah, music. Dancing. Dancing.It was fun! But, I had never been to a Mod Pizza and mod pizza happens to be one of the sponsors, title sponsors of everything Generosity Feeds does. Because of their involvement and the the fun and the giveback opportunity we had, I've been to Mod Pizza now probably eight or ten times in the last year and I'd never been there before. So I connect with the the business aspect of wanting to be a part of something good. And suddenly I found a good and worthy business that actually has gluten free pizza that my wife can eat. Because so it's, there's there's lots of reciprocity, if you want to be a part of an organization that gives back so if you're, if you're a company, pay attention, Ron's who you need to hook up with if you're interested.That's why that's why we're here. Atrantil KBS research as a company, we're here to support you. Because we are trying to heal people's guts. Yeah. And you are trying to feed people.And keep them full.And keep them full. And we want to be involved with a company like you. And I'm very honored that we're sitting here. I'm very honored that we have the ability to be in Austin, that we're going to be part of this. Thank you for inviting us. But I'm also honored that we work for a company that decided to do this together. So shout out to Chuck and Mike and Brandy and everybody and Anthony, everybody else on our team that said yes, go down to Austin. We're going to support thatThat's right. Absolutely. So, we've talked a little bit about generosity feeds and I believe you said it's a subsidiary of the Replenish Foundation. Correct. But there was a Ron Klabunde long before Replenished Foundation and Generosity Feed. So, where are you from? How did you get to...? Where my rear end is. Yes, yes, yes. That's where I'm from.Oh, yeah. So Ron is hilarious with with lots of cheap jokes where his rear end is where he's from. And, but Where, where, where do you originate from? How did you get to where you are now I know that you have a history of being a pastor, etc.So so yes, I was a pastor for 21 years. And in my own journey, as I've shared with you, I just became a little disillusioned with how local churches were talking about loving God and loving other people, and yet really weren't partnering with businesses to make a difference or really, I mean truly partnering with church, schools to make a difference or even other nonprofits they they tended to want to keep doing ministry on their terms. And I'm looking at this and I'm going, this isn't about what a church should be doing to for in a community. It's what a church should be doing with a community, based on what a community needs. Why are churches inviting people to come to them to meet their needs on the church's terms, instead of doing what I saw Jesus doing, which was going out and meeting people on their terms?Could you say that again, you said to what a church shouldn't be doing too.So a church church is so focused so much on doing ministry to a community in a community or for a community, that the moment we use those words, right, it's all about what it's about me and what I want to do to give, it's not about the other person. This is about with that, that it's what we get to do together. Right. That here's the principle behind it. Thanksgiving and Christmas, right? Your families you might be thinking, well, this Thanksgiving, Who should we who should we go serve? Sure.Or what nonprofit should we go serve with as a family? Right? Many families in America do this. That's a good question to start with, who are we going to serve? It's not the best question to start with. Because and here's why. That's an addition question. We are going to go serve them. That's one plus one. The better question is, who am I going to serve with?Say that again? Who am I going to serve with.With because, because if I want to if I want to make a difference in someone's life, then I need to be inviting you because now I get this relationship and my desire to do good begins to rub off on you. You come with me, and we together, go serve and something ignites in your heart. And now you're changed. And then you're like, you know, that just felt good. That was right. I want to live a more meaningful life, more purposeful life. We all want to do that. And so what do you turn around and do you go find another friend and you're like hey, you need to come do this with me. And so the power of the power of generosity is not found in what we do. It's found in who we do it with. It's about the relationship.You lead by example. Yes. You lead by example. You're not telling people to go do things. You say, follow me. I'm going to show you we're going to do this together, and we're going to make each other better.What he, what he's saying is not even just a theory, and I didn't get a chance to tell you this yesterday. So Ken had to leave the procedure facility yesterday earlier than I did because he had a he had an interview, and I stayed a little bit longer. We have a new center director, his name's Chris. So big shout out here to Chris. I told him while we were coming down here for the weekend, he thought it was it was an incredible opportunity. I said, Well, we'll have another Generosity Feeds event in Dallas. You may want to see it, the rest of the endo center would like to come be a part of it. He immediately said, what a great team building exercise for all of us to go down and give back to the community I mean, it bled from you encouraging us to meet your team. I just happened to mention it without any prompting from you. And now...Because it was just lift. Yeah, I think the center's gonna have next timeThat's a great idea a company like Digestive Health Associates of Texas and AMSURG these companies that we're affiliated with. Yep. We've got KBS doing it now we can just keep working our way up to the bigger and bigger companies that we have access to.Yeah.To help out.That's right that's it's pretty powerful message to to be able to go and serve with versus you're just going to go and serve.Yeah, well even take it take it to the business level now. Sure. Think about what's happened in business over the last number of years. We had Tom's come up with what the one for one model right. And it's it's all about a transaction you buy this we'll give this and that's as far as it ever goes with the customer. And then you have the companies that as you just said, this is a great team building opportunity. Let's bring our employees in Salesforce rocks it out with empowering their employees to go serve in the local community and the things that they're passionate about. But where's the where's the model? Where now as a company, you can invite your customers to come serve with you. And you're not just there, they already love your product right there. They're buying from you because they love your product. But what if you're inviting them now into your value system? And you build a relationship with them around your value system of giving back of doing good as a company becoming a force for good. The moment you do that, you turn customers into raving fans of your brand. Sure. That's the power of this. It's the power of with.Yeah. The power of with.And the interesting thing about that is that it cannot be faked. No, no. You, you either live it you say look, we're gonna we would love our customers. I would love everybody who's ever bought Atrantil to be part of something like this. But I want you to do it because you just want to do it. I don't want to do it for that you're not going to gain anything other than you're going to be part of a community you're going to serve, you're going to find purpose, where we want to be one of those companies that actually helps with something like that. You can't fake it.No, but you're inspiring something in people that's beyond a product. Definitely.We were talking earlier that there was a study when you stole the car earlier. We're...a study came out that millennials prefer to purchase from a company that they feel is doing good for the for their community for the world, whatever, because it's a very jaded society now we realize that there's just a lot of for profit things we're going to get into this because a nonprofit for profit the only way you're going to be successful is actually making a profit one way or the other. Was it Hollis or somebody else at Baby Bathwater that one time was talking about the best way for someone to have a good good experience with you and may I can't remember if it was Hollis or not but they essentially said your customers are always looking for the community net positive. Now I can't remember exactly who wasn't said that at the last meeting but they were talking about if I make this purchase then I know I'm getting this product. But what if I'm supporting a company that's also either helping the environment or helping my fellow man they're looking for the net positive with their interaction with the company because if I buy a pencil over here from let's say a name of a store but it's all about the transaction well it's it's only as cold as the money went here and I got...walked away with a pencil but maybe if I spent I don't know two or three cents more over here and they encouraged me to do one more thing in my community that brought somebody else in or made a piece of plastic.Man, I love where you're going with this it never even occurred to me that part of our follow up post purchase email should be something charitable like this. Yes, we should sit there and say not not now that you purchase this get on cuz you know it's business. It's post purchase email hope you enjoyed it we want to turn you into that promoter.You want to subscribe?Yeah do you want but but everybody's doing that. I want to do this and we're going to do this with KBMD and KBS yeah say thank you for purchasing this hey we teamed up with Ron Klabunde who has opened this thing if you are so inclined go look at it one time one email no more follow up though if then funnels this. No, just check it out. I like it you should check it out.So this concept of wanting to do things with lead you to basically change the way that you handled your approach to being a pastor. Correct. And then so when it when are you getting to the point where Replenish Foundation and Generosity Feeds and the other companies that are enveloped within begin to form on the horizon? How did that all come about?So I'll bring us back to the beginning. Okay. My wife and I were living in northern Virginia and this is pertinent to the story and that we were living in the wealthiest county in America. Okay.OkayIs this outside of DC? This is outside of Washington DC, okay. And so we wanted we we realized that people in Washington DC wanted to serve. They wanted to teach even their children the values of generosity and service, and all comes back to this. No one wants their kids growing up being an asshole. No one. And so we figured, but here's the problem. The problem is, it takes time to find a good nonprofit. It's even harder to find a good nonprofit that will let children serve because of insurance liabilities. So that's a huge thing. Never thought about that.Barrier entry point for families serving together. So what we did is we decided, well, let's create something that has a low entry level. Let's partner with the local school because the local school already has more influence than any other organization in the community. Sure. So This school is promoting it, people are going to come. So now I don't have any marketing overhead. Yay. And so then we go that we went to local businesses and we said listen, the local school we're doing this event with them. And in the wealthiest county in America catch this. There were 12,500 children struggling with hunger, the wealthiest county in America. 12,500 children struggling but the hunger back in the day. So we looked at this and we went, business leaders listen, why don't you come with us on this but also bring your employees with you as a team building opportunity. Let's just do this as a community wide and collaborative. It's a school it's the businesses, nonprofit sector, a church here or there.Can I slow you down?Please. Because I love and we've we've talked about this. I love how people end up where they get there. And clearly you saw the need.Right.I want to know even before that when you're sitting with your wife and you guys had the AHA moment you went, hey, maybe we should consider doing something like this. Because it makes total sense that you know that all these kids need to eat. It's it's those, it's those moments that build that can change the trajectory of a life.And did mine. Absolutely. We were we were, we were innovating ways to create easy entry levels for people to serve. So we tried a number of things before we got to Generosity Feeds. And we were sending kids we were doing food collection before and sending kids that who weren't going to eat over the weekend. We were sending them home with 20 pound backpacks of food. Now imagine imagine a six year old trying to get a 20 pound backpack it doesn't work right so we made some horrible mistakes in the journey, horrible mistakes. And eventually we innovated to this to this idea and and we mobilize 600 people. Event one. Wow. Wow. 600 people showed up to create 40,000 meals in less than two hours.You and your wife plan this. Yes.That is so cool. The logistics of that is so cool.Just the supply alone. Yeah.To have that. Yeah. That's pretty incredible.Now you see the community now is coming around this idea because it's an easy entry point who can't show up for two hours at the local high school to help create food for kids in that school and that school district.Yeah.Who would go hungry otherwise on the weekend?Now your experience in the church did did you kind of already know or at least somewhat predict that because it going through the Generosity Feeds event, and just like Kim described it, it was lots of instant team building with the people that were there. Yes.Did you kind of already know looking for your range in this? Yes. And I know there's there's wisdom in there yea.There's wisdom that I gleaned sure the years and there's there's a reason that every packaging station which you were both at is between 12 to 15 people There's a reason for that because we're seeking to create community. You can't create community with 600 people in one room. But if I take 600 people and I break them down into teams of 12 to 15 they're going to naturally build relationships with each other and that's what I want. I want everyone leaving with a new friend that shares the value of generosity and service.And the other thing which I thought was really cool at least when we did it was this fun competition. Yes. Yes.They're like yeah, this tables crushing it here I'm like, Come on guys, we're not gonna let them win, we have to do this. It's it's it's the human nature. That's right.Everybody was really excited as each one we would pack the boxes I can't remember how many food packs went into each box but regard...25 Okay, so you get to 25 and then basically your your tables excited because we'll we've we've sealed another one. But of course it's it's a victory for the kiddos who are gonna end up getting it in the end.So as a gastroenterologist the other thing that I was really pleased with...Yes.You guys chose a sustainable food source you had a good protein fat carbohydrate ratio. So you're not like putting Fritos in a bag and saying go home. No! Um. Here's where that came from. Um, in our family we eat as all natural and holistic and organic as we can. Nice. And part of that is my wife has autoimmune issues. I don't I don't think I've shared that before. And so she's also gluten intolerant and thyroid issues and before I give the whole medical thing that's going on with her, right? Well, here's what my wife said to me early on. She said there is no way that we are feeding millions of children in America what we're not willing to feed are own children.Good for her. So cool. That is so cool.That's the standard. And so everything we did was go out and find the healthiest we created the product but create the healthiest product we could that was lightweight. Sure. That could that a six year old kid carry home you know? Yeah, that was lightweight that could be created by the masses that could be a mobile manufacturing plant that would create community bring all the aspects of community together and could be a dance party when we wanted it to be.That's an absolute brilliant idea. Yeah, I mean, talk about a win win win. You around very clearly are not only a very generous person, very altruistic person, but pretty damn smart. Yeah. Because that is cool. You're a good businessman.Yeah. You could take you could take the letters, PDS sense PDGs already been taken.Yeah, yeah.That's right.Well, it was also it's not just infectious for the the event that we went to in Dallas We're in coronavirus season, we don't use the word infectious. Oh, sorry. Let me let me shed some light no shedding disease. No but I think two weeks before we did our event Lavich and Hollis had participate in the one was in Colorado and a very similar experience so y'all are obviously replicating all of the good parts building upon and improving. Absolutely.I'm looking forward to the to the next event we'll obviously be there but I don't want to steal the thunder we'll get to that in a moment to Generosity Feeds how people can look it up but so now you've you've gotten to the point of my wife and I have decided that we want to do something different like she's thrown down a great edict: we want to feed kids the same things that we would eat your piece it together. The first event had 600 volunteers you had 40,000 meals made. Now what?Within two weeks, I started getting phone calls from community leaders around the country going we heard what you're doing in northern Virginia. We need your help, will you come? Wow. And so theysame state?I mean, oh, no. Across the country, were calling meOh, across the country. Sorry. They were...How did they find out about it?I'm well networked. Okay, so because of just because of my background I used to...You're an Instagram model.You just got my mouth to close!So not that kind of networking, okay.No, um I used to and now I'm back at doing keynotes around the countries I teach leadership development around the country and so because of my earlier years of doing keynotes I'm just I'm well networked into the business sector and into the even into the kind of the faith sector of our culture. So people know...people are watching what I'm doing. They they saw, they knew and so within one year of that event, we were coast to coast.Holy. That's great.And that was the ah-ha moment-going back to your previous question. When was that kind of that that wake up moment? Yeah. When we were When we did our first event in Eugene, Oregon, as far as you can get away from DC. And it flew with all the same outcomes as we had in Washington, DC, my wife and I looked at each other and went, holy shit. We just started a national nonprofit that can go to any community in America. Yeah. And then it was just a matter of leading that to growth. Sure.Because growth doesn't just happen, you have to invest in grwoth, and so we began investing in the growth of the company. The other moment that was really big for us, is obviously it takes capital. It doesn't matter what we're starting in life, for profit, for purpose, nonprofit, it takes capital. I remember walking in my living room. And I looked at my wife and I said, listen, I need to write a $15,000 check to the foundation, so that this thing has a chance at living. Can I write the check? And I said, by the way, I think I'll have it I think we can pay ourselves back in eight weeks again. Keep in mind, I was a pastor. I was getting paid almost nothing. So 15,000 for me, you're going to know in a moment how close that was to my end. Wow. She says, yes. 10 weeks later, I walk back in the living room and I go, honey, I haven't been able to pay us back on that $15,000. I need to write the last $15,000 we have to our name. Can I do it? And my wife goes, "write the check."Holy cow. So just to clarify. Nonprofit, you took all your savings.Dumped it. Dumped it in there. Yeah. With the mission of saying we know we're onto something. Yes. But we're losing money right now. Yes. That's guts.Well, it was. Holy cow.It was this vision. It was the it this is a painful point to to be honest with you is that I had the we had the vision for feeding millions of kids who across America struggling with hunger but I was writing the last check not knowing if I'd feed my own. Oh.Goodness gracious. Oh my goodness. That's the level of commitment.That's the line.Dude. That is coolest thing I think I've ever heard. Yeah.I'm willing to take food out of my kids' mouths knowing that if I do this right, I can feed millions. Yes.And your kids did you sit and tell them that?Oh, they know all this. They're in the game with us.That's so cool. So cool. They knew. I know that you and I have a son, sons that are the same age. So my my youngest is 16 and I think yours is  1616, yeah.And then how many other kiddos you got?18 year old girl.Oh, that's what I have also.And a 15 year old girl.Okay, nice. I've got 18 year old son 16 year old son. You are 15...15 and 13. A 15 year old boy and a 13 year old girl.Nice. They they eat a lot. Both of them. If I sat with them and said I'm not gonna feed you for a week because I'm going to try and feed a million kids...actually I take this back, actually my kids, both Lucas and Carla are amazing kids, they will probably look at me and be like, you need to feed a million kids. Sure. We'll go forage. There's and that's that's, that says a ton about you that you went out on that kind of limb. And man, I'm so glad that you did. Because we saw the effect. Right.That you're you're doing and we only saw it on the local level. You see it all these other places we're going to, we're going to explode it tonight at this Party on Purpose. Gonna be amazing tonight.So how long ago was Eugene, Oregon's first event?That was eight and a half years ago. Wow.So now you hit Eugene, Oregon, you say to your wife, we are definitely in something that we can replicate in city to city. Yes. You're going to take this nonprofit worldwide. It's going to grow we talked about you need capital.Right. Where does Replenish Foundation Generosity Feeds began to take shape?So, we had some very wise councillors, advisors on the front end. So when we were even looking at this first event with 600 people, they said you need to start a nonprofit that is a um umbrella organization so that you can create an ecosystem of nonprofits underneath it. Because I don't want to lead six initiatives that all have their own 501C3, that's six different boards. It's too much management. It's not efficient. So far better off creating one nonprofit that can house various initiatives. So Generosity Feeds is a DBA of the Replenish Foundation. And that allows us now to be creating additional initiatives that all play off of each other.Sure.And are now working collectively to establish generosity as the new gold standard in America. That's what we're after. I know that Generosity Feeds is one of your biggest DBAs under the Replenish Foundation. What what DBAs do you have?Yea, the other one is Generosity Serves. So as of today, we have 64,000 volunteers across America. Remarkable number. Here's what's happening at events now. Oh, and we also partner with other nonprofits. Oh. So, so when we go into a community and all these meals are made, we don't do distribution. We bring in other nonprofits, we promote them at our event. Nice. And then we give them the food. So here's what's happening. These nonprofits are now coming to us going, you got 400 people from our community to show up at your event and we can't get 40. Okay. Would you be willing to mobilize your local volunteers to serve with our organization? Well, of course, I am.Sure This is about doing good. This is about becoming a force for good. This isn't about competition in the nonprofit sector. This is about helping these other nonprofits soar.Right.So Generosity Serves is a platform now where with our nonprofit partners across the country we can go into our database and begin to mobilize these people to serve with these other nonprofits in the rhythm that works for their family. Oh, wow. You haven't...you haven't you have built an army of generous people.Yes. That's where we're that's why we're seeing that we're seeking to change culture. Because we know if we can change the dial of generosity in America, even just three notches, three degrees from our present trajectory. Together, we can begin to solve every social issue that exists. I believe the timing is perfect. Also, I think I think the pendulum is swinging back away from that social media obsession and people are going I am done. I am unplugging. I want to be with somebody I want to talk I want and I think it's an incredible timing. I think that people are seeking this which is why they, you've been able to do this. Well, you've been able to do it because you're very organized and you did it the proper way. And you're very charismatic and there's a lot of reasons why your particular thing, but that's the platform that other people can go with. You know, we're doing KBMD is sponsoring Linda's Nebraska ataxia for the for the fourth year in a row. And I was just thinking the whole time when you said we team up with other nonprofits, she does, she is my med school roommate, been friends with her forever and she developed a type of ataxia. And meaning that she, it's, it's, it's like Lou Gehrig's disease, but she has the resources and she found a physical therapist that analyzed her and was able to put a vest on her with weights. And it actually allows her to walk without the vest. She can't walk. Oh my goodness. Yeah, so then so she decided on her own dime to do a Nebraska Ataxia foundation and all they do is buy them and given to people and there's just video of video of people in wheelchairs and they show up and give them a vest because that technology exists. Yeah, it's like this. There's kids not eating on the weekend. You can feed them and you can eat them good food and they're gonna they're gonna become great members of society. It's just that easy. It isn't like you're going and given some weird obscure drug. It's like oh my gosh and so like I'm just we need to get you and Linda hooked up with that or she needs that you have any events in Omaha Nebraska?Not right now. We'll set that on the through her but she's got a big network and we can we can do that.That's right. We did. I don't know what podcast that was but he came on our podcast and he taught Eric and I about toxic charity, how you can cause more damage, trying to do good by throwing...You know, it's so cool as we've had a handful of different charitable folks drop in on the gut check project and one of them that always comes to mind right off the top is another BBW guy and that's Robo Hendrickson with a I mean, he truly is...in but the way that he describes the passion behind why he does what he does transforming communities is very similar to what you're talking about. But even more to the point the way that it's not what you would consider what Robo termed was toxic charity.Throwing money...the fact that you y'all have yet another subsidiary, just simply called Generosity Serves shows that you're, you're enabling a community to feel comfortable and more community by serving together find and you even said it yourself finding ways to make it fit your schedule. And you're doing it without competition between people who are trying to do well, it's like, let's lift each other together. In my own small town. I told this to Ken we there's a man by the name of Ricky and he works through a church but he invites the entire community at least one Saturday a month to simply come and staff tables where we hand out food. That's all that we do. A lot of the different food producers in the North Texas, they donate it, they know there's going to be a big line. People come from all over. But regardless, they get shopping carts. They come out there in the parking lot. We load them up, and then they've got plenty of food for a couple of weeks. It's great. And it's giving and it's things like what you're talking about all we've ever needed as volunteers to help make it happen.So, side note, but this is a shout out and mad props to every single parent out there. Dad or mom Loy and Lucas spent two weeks in Mexico touring doing tennis. I had to try and figure out what to do with my daughter. Like pick her up from school, get her to her events, cook dinner for her. I want to say it was the two most stressful weeks I've had in my entire life because I'm trying to work. Now. I'm the boss. I started thinking, Wait a minute, I'm the boss and I do okay, financially. What happens and I started looking around my office I'm like, I have a lot of single moms working for me. Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh, I have a lot of single moms that are going to get fired when they show up late again. And there's, and they're they and I just I had this. Am I that big of a jerk that I have not until I lived it...Yeah. That's frickin hard. Yeah. And then when you don't have enough money to give your kid food on the weekend, the only food they're eating is at school. So then it's insult to injury where you're you're trying your best. Yes, they are. You want to give your kid food. And then something like this, where they just come home with a backpack and the food's already there. No questions asked. Nothing being said and it's healthy.You know what makes that story even better, is when that kid was at that school event, help create the meal and three weeks later, they open their backpack and it's sitting there and they kept their dignity because they helped make it Oh, yeah. Take it to the next level.Yeah, that's cool. Then that's that's the epitome of not a toxic charity. Because what Robo talked about is it doesn't do me any good to go to a community because just like you he's serving with them. He's teaching them how to take care of their animals, go get an education, give back to the people learn how to grow the food mill, it's very much the same thing you've removed the stigma of someone just gave me this to I created this for me and for some other people who are in similar situations. That is a pretty incredible full circle, give back. I didn't even think about that to the people that we were building these.That's where that's where I said, you very likely had no idea you're standing next to a single mom. You'd have no idea because the moment we unite ourselves around shared values, nothing else matters. You're right. Your wealth doesn't matter when you're united around shared value.This is...we do this, Eric puts my patients to sleep. I stick a camera in people's butts, the one thing that we see over and you may be a super rich guy, you may be this buff person, you may be old. We all have the same inner workings. We're all the same. That's what we totally forget. We're all the same. And I see that because I stick cameras and I'm like, your stomach looks like it looks like his stomach. We're all the same. That's right. And when we sit there and realize that if my kid was hungry, thank God, they have never had to experience that. But if we had something that I could, I mean, to be able to go and be a participant say, honey, we're going to go and we're going to pack some food and you're gonna have food for this week, but we're going to earn it. That's so cool. Non toxic charity.That's right. So we started off in northern Virginia. Yes. And then we've we've gotten to the point now where Replenish Foundation functions is a large company with a handful of charitable subsidiaries. Yes. Now today, you're in 29 different states with events correct? That's correct. So what what is Generosity Feeds is doing now? How can people that are tuning into Gut Check Project figure out where they fit in to learn how they can begin to serve with? Yes. In, in and around their communities with their neighbors at? What What can people do?So let me hit the business side of this first. Sure. So we work we work with over 600 businesses across the country. And you it's very possible that your that our listeners today have heard of something called corporate social responsibility.Corporate social responsibility.It's called CSR. And this is often used by the larger companies. Now, here's the problem with CSR. It's this. Its responsibility. No one wants to do a responsibility, something responsibility is something you have to do. Right. And yet these larger companies, most companies are looking for CSR. What's our corporate social responsibility going to be? No, we're throwing Corporate Social Responsibility out the window and we're saying listen, don't do a CSR. Do CSO, corporate social opportunity. Let us help you as a business, create a philanthropic strategy that engages your product, summit a piece of your profit, whatever you want your employees and your customers, and that customer pieces a huge piece. And so one of the things that we're doing now with companies is helping them develop their their CSO, corporate social opportunity, because when a company does it right, it's going to accelerate their business. I was talking with a very large business owner in Salt Lake City this last week, and they just dumped a lot of money into a nonprofit initiative. And I said, you know, you're about to open 25 restaurants around the country. And you're going to drop about a half a million dollars on every one. I'm sorry. $500 million on every restaurant. to open it said I would imagine what...500 million?500 million is what typically it takes to open these larger scale restaurants okay? Holy cow. So 500 million. When you when you open a restaurant, are you going into that with a strategy and a plan? Yeah, well, of course they are. Anyone would. I said, over the next 10 years, you're probably going to invest 200 to $300,000 in philanthropy. Do you have a strategy for that? And she's like, oh, I get your point. Why in the world would you take $200,000 of your profit and invested in, in nonprofits without a strategy? Right.Like, let me help you design a strategy with your marketing team that's wrapped with your values, so that so that you're doing your philanthropy with a with a purpose. So you can see the outcomes in a way that actually accelerates your business.I love this because what I'm hearing is that charity and giving back is not checking a box.No, this is this is about nonprofits. Yeah.And for-profits working together. And here's the here's the statement, not it. The linchpin is this, for profits that have the heart of a nonprofit, need to find great nonprofits that have the mind of a business. Say that one more time.Okay for profits, businesses, businesses that have the the heart of a nonprofit...Love that. Need to find great nonprofits who have the mind of a business.And you're allowing this so I'm like the fact that you said that this is a corporate social opportunity. You are figuring out how to do it well. You can come to a company like KBS and say you are leaving your customers in a position where they don't know that they can give back. And we all win.Yes. And I can coach you through I can guide...and here's the beauty of this, this isn't about the foundation. Because at the end of the day, I want your company doing what you're passionate about. Not what I'm passionate about, this is about your value system. And so if these companies choose to work with us, that's great. I mean, that's going to help accelerate what we're doing. That's not the point to this. The point is, if you're aligning your profits and your values and your employees and your customers with a great nonprofit that aligns with all of that, then guess what? You're doing good. You're becoming a force for good and that's all I want. That's all I want. Yeah. And so that's the end game. Like, why because we're seeking to establish generosity as the new gold standard. That's not about me. That's about you.You wrote your last $15,000 check, told your kids we're out of money. And you went from there to I'm now going to teach large corporations how to do it better. And it all revolves around generosity and you lead by example that day when you wrote that check.Yes.So cool. That is so so cool. I'm excited. We are leaving we are completely because we now we know everybody at KBS we're there. We all do charitable things, your donate money I do the thing that you're saying, which is you know, I, whatever, you know, I try to donate, like, even like Linda's foundation and stuff like that every year I sponsor, I'm not taking advantage of the fact that I need to spread that message because all it does is help everyone get in their lane and oh, this is where I need to drive. That's that's basically what you're telling people to doIt's the power of with.Yes, power of with.Now, that's a pretty powerful message all the way around. It just seems like that lots of corporate responsibility did turn into the checking of a box. We should be doing this. So let's be sure that we do it. And Carol, you're over there. Did we do that thing? Did we send the check did but there's there's no personality behind that there's no touch in there, you're really not seeing it.Well let's take it one step further as a pastor tithing. I grew up Catholic, right 10% Where does it go? Who cares? I don't know. I'm just giving it. It's right. Right. It's what they said we had to do.That's the world I was in too.Now, and it...suddenly just enters a world of obligation. What what was probably born as a as a good purpose. It's lost. Its lost touch. It's lost feel. There's no texture to it. It's just this this, this money is spoken for, and it's gone. So now I'm super intrigued as a business owner. I come to you, Ron. And I say I have a I have a business. We're growing. I want to get my company in this corporate social opportunity. What would be the first thing that you would do? What would what would you do with me?So the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to I'm going to send you an assessment. I'm going to have you assess your own company as to where you're at. And that's going to do two things. Number one, that's going to help you understand wait a minute, we're not all bad. That's the first thing it's gonna do.I talked to I talked to Tim and Patrick about this that like we're doing the whole we've all read the book Traction. Yes. And so you know, you do like that, you know, you start that you start thinking everybody's bad. You're like, this is your this is your score. Eric, you're a two this week. You are a two.No, so you're gonna get some good news, right? Yeah, but you're also going to evaluate where you want to be when it comes to CSO corporate social opportunity. And then I'm going to walk you through a process of blueprint of helping you close that gap. It's that simple, and in a company your size. Four hours, you will walk away with a blueprint of going, oh my God, is it really that easy? And it is. And so if this is not rocket science, I don't need to consult your company for three months. Let's just sit down, I'll put you through the assessment. We're going to walk you them through our blueprint that aligns your social, your social good with your value system, your product and some of your profit, and boom, you walk out the door going, oh my god, here's who we can partner with. and here's how we can tie our business and our customers into it and everyone wins.We have when we launched our product, we know consistently because our research when we did the clinical trials, we know that four out of five people are going to get better, like really get better. Sure. And we when we launched we either had one star on Amazon or we had five which is not a placebo. Either we worked or we didn't. Yes. And fortunately we are four stars and close to 1000 reviews. Every single one of those people that we helped, we can say if we made you feel better, I'm going to ask a favor of you now. And then we do your process. Yes. Because you have somebody that Yeah, I do feel better. You changed my life I want you to pay it forward and be with and we can make a difference and grow this network. That's so cool. Corporate Social opportunity. Did you coin that term? Yes. That's awesome. Only because CSO doesn't it doesn't work. It's it again. It's a check a box. It's it's not the heart.Right.And we're we're seeking to pull out of people, the values that are in them, the values in there. It's just letting them come to the surface and begin living.Isn't that so interesting? Because you can see how many people want to have that pulled out of them. Because we think that everybody's own superficial stuff, but the reality is, when we went and when we did Generosity Feeds, that was an enthusiastic, it's not like...From the moment we walked in.Oh my gosh, everybody the energy was amazing. Yeah, people want to get off of this superficial thing. They want to be part of something. And if they know that they can, it just comes to them. I mean, I'm the same way. I mean, I was so excited. I only found out about it because Eric said, hey, one of our Baby Bathwater people does this. I'm like, Okay, what are we doing? I was on call that weekend and everything. And I was like, Okay, I had no idea. Yeah, loved it had fun. And I'm somebody that is perfectly willing to give back and try and help out wherever but it doesn't. Since it's not being fed to me. I'm busy. I forget. Now, if we can sit there and develop some sort of process where and we can get other companies, like some of the other companies that we work with,You know, it's kind of interesting is it KBMD Health, but also just in the direct patient contact that we have. We talk about diet, we talk about exercise, we talk about different things that people do to improve their own health. And since I was a kid, I've heard that many times just simply giving of yourself will reward you even more than than whatever, but you hear it. You don't always get a blueprint on how do I effectively give back and it sounds to me like probably what you're really doing is, it may sound elementary, but you're just helping people rediscover the new way to find their purpose and then suddenly you begin to feel better. Suddenly depression issues aren't nearly as bad as they used to be. Because if you think about a gym, do you think gyms existed back in the 1800s? Could you imagine in the 1800s telling someone, we're going to have this building, and there's going to be metal bars, and we're going to put weight on them. And we're going to lift them, and we're going to put things over our heads. And we're going to do some stuff like this, and we're going to do some stuff like this. You're gonna look great, you're gonna feel good, and some cowboy would have shot you between the eyes and go that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Have you ever heard that whole Jim Gaffigan set where he's just like, what in the world? How do people develop a Stairmaster? Hey, I got an idea. You know, people love walking up stairs. Let's make one that's never ending.But, but people, they they've gone to do that because that level of exercise for whatever it is, is keeping them in shape and helping them feel better. It just seems like what you you're doing is reintroducing people back to what they've become this...they became disconnected from your core. It's why people do yoga. It's why people do meditation it's to return to who they are. This is not that different.I have an idea for you. I think you should make the food much heavier like 20 pounds. Put it on the kids Yeah, give him a little workout. And then let 'em do squats.Do Memorial Day Murph For Memorial Day you go to Generosity Feeds get your 20 pound pack. Go do some air squats.Oh my goodness.That That is so cool. I'm just I'm I'm loving the idea that we could sit there and send a post purchase email sequence that just says hey, it's time to give back time to give back if you got better great if you didn't get your money back because we have 100% money back guarantee. Yeah, you didn't get better. Here's your money back if you got better now you need to pay for it. But not you go give back. Give back with us.With us. relationship. Everything's relationship.Let us know how you're giving back also, I mean, justWhatever it takes. But it's not you know, I mean, what I like what you're doing is you go, I'm a company your size, I need four hours, I've got the process, you very clearly are a very detail oriented person. You think through all these things, you've got 64,000 soldiers, that got your back right now. That's what we would need. I mean I want you to come to me and be like, here's what you're gonna do. That's what I love about traction. It's and you can do this, this, this and this. Now for your charity, you're going to do this, this, this and this, not write one check every Sunday.Yeah. And walk or interplays with what you are doing from the book Traction. Because again, when we talk about our, our body and our health, it we're holistic beings, everything in our place, right? Same thing in it, same thing in business. What you do in the philanthropic side of your business needs to completely interplay with what you do in the profit side of your business. Let them intertwined they're not two different silos, and that's what we're bringing together.Yeah, man I love what you're doing I absolutely love what you're doing and I just I like hearing the story how I built this because people look at this they're like oh yeah he's charismatic guy, he's a coach whatever know you wrote a check with the last money in your bank and you went...It hurts.Yeah, just just to reiterate, in case you're joining us late in the podcast and you're just joining in because somebody else...If you're joining us late just rewind and start over cuz it's all really good.Generosity Feeds does not handout, cheap meals and sweet tarts. This is legitimate food for kiddos that don't have an opportunity to eat and don't have an opportunity to get a good meal on the weekends and you've stepped in and you've allowed people into your vision to serve in a serving with you, which I think is awesome.You know what I really like also having kids our age, Eric made it a point to make sure that it was a family involvement. Gage brought his girlfriend. Yeah, it was it was we're going to do this. I'm going to lead by example. I'm gonna put the hairnet on. I'm gonna put the gloves on. Yeah, you're gonna see your dad do it first. And then follow my lead. So it's the same thing you lead by example. You teach others to do that they teach others to do that now we're all with it. And the car ride home was was filled with smiles. It was rainy that day. Yeah. It was rained hard that day. But I mean, everybody was like, man, it felt great.Yeah. And then is the conversations as a parent, reinforcing the experience. Sure.That's the power. Definitely no curriculum needed. How do people find you Ron? How do people help out?Easy. Email me at ron@replenishfoundation.org that easy, different ways to help out. Look for an event in your area. That's one If we're not there yet, that's fine. How do they find that? Is that on Generosity Feeds?Go to generosityfeeds.org.org, o.r.g.Yep, generosityfeeds.org go to locations, you'll see what's coming in the next usually four months. And in we're already booking 18 months from now. Whoa, it's crazy. So that's but that leads to part two. If you're if you lead a business that is wanting to do good, or you're a community leader, have it, call us we'll come to an event with you, like will coach you on how to mobilize your entire community and work with you and support you in this because it's all about the width. So break. Let's do this in your community. Let's do this together. So that's the other pieces go to generosityfeeds.org and just contact us and we'll, we'll help get this going in your community.Do you hear that Linda? Nebraska Ataxia, hit him up. Omaha is gonna be the next place to do a Generosity Feeds spot. And then we're going to team up two charities that I support.29 states covered right now, which means there's 21 left just in the US alone. So knowing that if I were a corporate person who wanted to be a corporate partner, and I know that we said that you don't just want to write a check, but you do need supplies.We do well, and we have national level funders, that are helping advance the mission. So you have we have local people who support the local events. And then we have the national partners, which you guys are, that are helping mobilize us into new communities across America that are helping us empower 64,000 volunteers, because the idea needs to be needs to spread.I just thought about something here. So if I'm a I'm not a I don't know how to say this in the right way. But if I'm a a family, yes, that is a tight on budget, right. And it's just easier to spend $8 at McDonald's to feed the family, is there I just don't know how to say this. But I would almost like to tell my patients for instance. Because I hear this from my patients all the time. It's very hard for me to shop at Whole Foods or whatever, or it's just easier that I can get McDonalds and you know, and I try and get them off of that. Is there a price point? Can anybody be part of this? Can anybody use eat it? I mean, basically, I would I would tell my I would tell my patients, go to Generosity Feeds, pack your own bag, make sure you eat this on the weekends and don't eat that crap that you find cheap.At our events when people come to at the end of all of our events. Here's what we say if you are here today, and you need food, just come see us privately. Because you're going to walk away with food. So it's that simple. Yes. Is the food already designated to the nonprofits that are going to distribute it? Yes. That doesn't matter. Someone when someone comes to an event needs food. Just come talk to one of our team members. We're going to hand you the food that you just created. Walk away with it.So DHAT my company. We need to do something with this also as a gastroenterology as the gastroenterologists for all ages that are the premier gastroenterology group in the country, we need to lead by example, we need to do stuff like this. Definitely. I think everybody be on board too. This is another one of those things where you just delivering laser focus to a lot of people who want to serve, they just don't know how to do it, or how to do it together.Well, sometimes it's the conventions, like Mod Pizza, as you said, is a title partner with us-national partner with us. So they do a leadership summit with all their general managers every year, guess what we do? We go in and catch this. This year they're creating 50,000 meals, they'll do it in less than one hour with 2,000 people. Like so. So we can come into these conferences and conventions and and we do this. We're working with Microsoft right now. Like, the coolest thing ever. Who are they? Yeah, I don't know. I think an up and coming company to buy some stock. So again, it's In those are private events where it's just that Corporation but it's like you so cool. You got this group around the country, the doctors come together. You put them on. So many companies talk about doing good. Let's just do it will bring it to youDon't talk about doing good.Well, just and I'm sitting there thinking we've got my company, I'm just thinking how many of these single moms that work for us that probably would be relieved that they could go home with some food. Because I found myself running out of time not cooking for Carla for those two weeks and ordering food and we ate like, well, we'd like crap per our standards chair. Um, it's, it's relative, right? I mean, it's, you know, read a lot of Thai food and whatever, you know, which I like. But um, but I wasn't cooking whole food. I wasn't doing the stuff that we normally would do.No, I agree with that, and probably the epitome of a lot of the people that want to give back, who aren't always in the best position to give back happened to be those same people. I would never know who actually truly struggles, it is walking amongst us until sometimes they kind of hit a wall and they just like, for the last number of weeks, I've been dealing with this I'll look and I'll say I had no idea. But that same person, whomever that would happen to be, I'm certain would jump at the opportunity to help a neighbor or friend. And then of course they would have the opportunity to benefit and take something back to their kids. That would be kind of incredible.Wow, I want to thank you so much for coming on. Thanks, Ron. I want to thank you for you lead by example. You're certainly gonna make a difference with us. We're gonna we're going to jump on board with KBS KBMD DHAT. We're remembering we're going to have the corporate social opportunity be our new motto.Yeah. If you're only watching us on the YouTube you may have missed we are down here in Austin, Texas for what they call the Austin POP the Party on Purpose yes event where we have a handful of corporate entrepreneurs who've come down here to Austin basically to help Generosity Feeds and Replenish Foundation mobilize to more areas throughout our country feeding kiddos that just needs some good meals. So Ron, I can't thank you enough for just bringing to life an incredible vision for a lot of people who just needed it. So it's, yeah it's awesome.I appreciate it great being on with you guys this is honestly just been a lot of fun. Oh, good, good. And I'm sure it has been for everyone else too.I hope so!Well, hopefully this will kind of spread and this is a great example of leading by example living by example. Corporate social opportunity Generosity Feeds Generosity Serves everything you have said is just makes me feel like I'm kind of a bad person and I need to do more.That's probably going to do it for Episode Number 35 Ron Klabunde here from Replenish Foundation and  Generosity Fees and Generosity Serves look him up everything in show notes of course, check us out, like and share Gut Check Project KBMDhealth.com. Dr. Brown, anything else?Yeah, I'm going to task everybody with a personal social opportunity. Definitely like and share this particular episode, because it goes way beyond the Gut Check Project,Send it to your boss.That's a great. Send it to your boss, find something that where you work or with your team. If you haven't been an entrepreneur, how can we begin to work together? This is your team building exercise. It costs you nothing, and it gives everything.Here we go. I'm going to I'm going to share this with Loida right now, my boss, my wife.Thank you! Tune in to Gut Check Project. We'll see you next week, don't forget we have a giveaway Dr. Brown's signature package Episode 36.Find a “Feeds” event near you https://generosityfeeds.orgOrganization Info on the Replenish Foundation https://generosityfeedsportal.org/uploads/images/prospectusreplenishfoundation_email.pdf

- Hey everybody, welcome to season two of Avoiding Real Estate Turbulence podcast. This is your pilot, Jon Lafferty with Century 21 Town and Country.- And co-pilot, Tony Abate, with Ross Mortgage and we are your real estate pilots. Our job is to be your real estate advocate and also make sure you're educated about the buying and selling process. We'll keep you informed throughout until we get you safely closed.- Today's episode is sponsored by Title One. When you're a seller or buyer and you're feeling weary or small, with tears in your eyes, Title One will dry them all. They are on your side. If times get rough and friends can't be found, Title One can be your bridge over troubled title issues. You can reach Title One at 734-427-8000, or email them at- team1@titleoneinc.net.- I didn't read that third paragraph, that's a good one Jon. All right, in a real estate transaction there are many reasons why you can encounter turbulence. Today we are going to talk all things Title, with Ken Taylor from Title One. Welcome to the jump. Welcome to the jump seat, man. Welcome to the jump sleet- Thank you guys for having me I appreciate it.- Absolutely. It's our first day by the way. I can tell.- It's my first day, I feel like Homer Simpson.- I didn't realize Jon was such a poet though.- He is, holy cow.- Skills that I didn't know he had.- Yeah, I think he wrote it at the traffic light right outside here, sitting in the car. Very good, Jon.- In blood. So Ken, how long have you been in title? What made you get into title? Let's start with just the basics there.- I've been in Title Insurance for coming up on 14 years now. I've been blessed to be with the same company, Title One the whole time. My, mother actually was, has been in the industry her entire life and got me started and more, the more and more I got to know the industry and move in different departments, found out I really enjoyed it and have stuck with it and gonna make a whole career out of it.- What do you like about title insurance?- I like, my favorite part about title insurance is, while in practice all real estate transactions are the same, they're not. The puzzle pieces always are a little bit different. The way to get to a closing table is just a little bit different in every transaction and that uniqueness is kind of what, you know, makes me go everyday. That everything is, nothing is ever the same. Every transaction no matter how on paper it looks like it's gonna be the same, is always different and new challenges every day and that's something that I look forward to everyday. Trying to put the puzzle pieces together, to get everyone to a closing table.- Wow.- Yeah, it's one of those unseen functions, you know, we all kind of walk folks through the process, but churning away in the background literally from start to finish and even before start, with pre Title and what have you, that is absolutely such a critical piece of the transaction.- That's correct yeah, it's a nice search, a nice, like I said, keep putting the puzzle pieces together. It's fun to draw a line from the start to end and, you know, we get to do that on every transaction which is fun.Ken TaylorTitle One(734) 427-8000team1@titleoneinc.net---Avoiding Real Estate Turbulenceinfo@avoidingret.comhttp://www.avoidingret.comFacebook: fb.me/avoidingret

*(We actually used a much stronger word.) Ken Schultz is on the road in NYC this week and he's joined IN PERSON by the podcast's first repeat guest: comedian Kevin McCaffrey (Late Show). Most of baseball is pretty cool but there are a few terrible people in the game. And they're all in the news in the same week! So Ken & Kevin spend 50 minutes putting them all on blast--from the cheating Astros to the poverty stricken Red Sox (Huh?) to the baseball hating Rob Manfred, no one is spared their disgust. Except Kris Bryant. Kris Bryant still rules. Twitter: @KenSchultz_ @KevinMcCaff @AwayGamesPod @SexCidiotsPod Insta: @KenThinguy @KevinMcCaff @AwayGamesPod @SexAndTheCidiots Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

https://unrefinedbakery.comfacebook.com/unrefinedbakeryinstagram.com/unrefinedbakeryWelcome to gut check project. It's episode number 30. I'm here with your host, Dr. Kenneth Brown. Eric Rieger here sitting now with the founders of unrefined bakery in the DFW area. It's Anne Hoyt and Taylor Nicholson Thank y'all so much for joining us today. You're welcome.Founders? We got the stars of unrefined bakery here!The stars of unrefined bakery.   The stars!We're glad to be here, y'all.I feel like every single show we just keep taking it up a notch. I'm like, how are we gonna beat this and you go I know how we're gonna beat it. We're gonna bring Anne and Taylor on.People that bring cupcakes.Yes, yes. cupcakes that won't make you sick. There you go. Yeah. And that is no joke. We're going to get to that obviously later in the show unrefined bakery being an incredible place that honestly it's great food that happens to not make you sick. I don't care that they feature that it's gluten free. And that it can be soy free or corn free. They have all of the things to take care of people who have food allergies, the fact is, the food is great. It just happens to be made of awesome stuff.Well, I'll be totally honest Eric, Eric loves your store he's been eating your get your food I have not heard of it. So this morning I'm in clinic and I had a bunch of people and I said well I'm unfortunately have to keep moving here I have to get to go to a show and I explained who I'm doing the show with it. Oh, I love unrefined bakery I go every time I go to a vegan conference through there every time I do this every single patient talked about you guys and I'm like Okay, we got some rock stars showing up today. I better have my game face on.Yeah,Well so quick. We just have to do it to pay the bills right quick. Don't forget that. Every gut check project it's sponsored by Atrantil lovemytummy.com/kbmd to get your discount of course it's polyphenols created by the gentleman right across the table from here Dr. Ken Brown. Anything to add for Atrantil before we talk to the ladies of unrefined bakery,Only thing to add is that everything that you guys tell your clients we also tell our clients which is we're trying to develop a healthy gut which leads to a healthy lifestyle which leads to anti aging which leads to health span. It's no longer about lifespan. It's about health span. How do we live a happy, healthy life where we share in this with everyone? And the relationship that you two have is so similar to what Eric and I have. I'm actually Eric father, and we started a business together.You look great! It's the polyphenols. It's an anti aging molecule.It's working!Well, you want to know what's really cool. Eric's a grandfather also. Yeah. You're a great grandfather. Great grandfather. That's amazing.It's news to everyone.So great. Breaking news! Here we go with it.I think that the I think that teaming up with unrefined bakery and discussing the issues of gluten and celiac disease is so close to my heart. So what I thought we could do today is I want to talk about celiac disease. We always geek out a little bit and clearly you to know your stuff on some science. Your sister's a physician. Yeah, so so you guys talk science at home. We'll talk a little science. We'll talk a little about celiac in general, get people up to speed get everybody's like, celiac. Do I have a wheat allergy? Do I have celiac disease? Do I have gluten sensitivity? Oh, it's all BS. Who cares? That's all just Hollywood stuff. We're gonna get into all that?And something to add a part that Ken doesn't always get to see is whenever we refer a patient to visit with our dietitians here locally like Susan linky unrefined bakery is always a stop that she's continuously recommended for the last several years because when people tried to bridge over to enjoying foods that they can then safely enjoy. Unrefined bakery has been a great, you know, beacon that you don't have to give up things that tastes great. You really don't. So let's start with the science. I mean, y'all y'all been a great savior for a lot of people.. Yes, I'm gathering that. You've passed that down.We're gonna let we're gonna let you guys go into the whole story about this talk about food but because this is the gut check Project, our whole motto is you check your ego at the door, and we can talk about anything. So today we're gonna talk a little bit about celiac disease I just mentioned in clinic everybody knew you guys. One of the things overview, it's a common autoimmune issue. If you're listening to this show, and you're like, ahhh celiac, blah, blah, blah, I'm not going to do this. Basically, what happens is your body starts attacking your small bowl, but pay very close attention to this show. Because as it turns out, the prevalence is increasing. A lot. We used to think it was like one in 3000. The most recent studies have shown that it's like one in 184. That was an Italian study that just came out not too long ago. We now know that 15% percent of new celiac diagnoses aren't people older than age 65. So you were quoting Alessio Fasano right before we started this, I had a patient today that said, you know, what, is it possible that you can develop this later in life and I'm like 15% of the new diagnoses are happening at age over 65. So if you think that you don't know or you will never get this. Pay attention to this because there is a chance that you could have this. So you may have celiac not even know it. We're going to get into that. This is not an allergy by definition. It's and it's a little bit different than gluten sensitivity. We're going to talk about all that and clarify it. But before we do this Eric is a huge history buff.Learned it from dad.So Oh, one other quick thing we always forget to do this. Although I'm a medical doctor, you're crna and you provide medical care. The show is not intended to treat diagnose or do anything that they should but we're just not just this is for fun. Yeah, but you're gonna learn a lot.If you have a funny looking toe get it checked out.Yeah, if you've got some unusual growth, go to unrefined bakery first. Do go to unrefined bakery first. We're gonna make you feel better. Buy a cupcake and feel better.You know what, that's it. Recommendation if you do happen, this is not diagnosing or treating, but it will make you feel better if you notice an unusual growth swing by unrefined bakery before you go to the doctor to get that diagnosis of it as you're munching. Oh, Take one to your doctor and bring some for their office. they'll treat you better..All right. So what I would like to do is our first ever history quiz. I'm going to sign awards and points on this one. So we're going to do a little history quiz. So the this is going to be about the history of celiac disease. All right. In 1888, celiac was first described by this person, Eric, you get first crack at the answer. 1888 celiac was described by this person. I don't know his name. I just assumed that it's Oh, you're pointing at something.Oh, it looks like was it Samuel?  Oh, you want me to say Bernie Sanders.But so my son is horrible at improv. Just absolutely horrible.I thought you wanted me to guess. So I was thinking...You probably would have guesseed Bernie Sanders...1888.Well, he was there,Right Trump is happy with that answer.Tylor what would be your answer in 1888.I'm probably going to go with Samuel Gee the English pediatrician. Sorry.Yeah, little closer there. Okay got it.  The English pediatrician. And what's your thoughts on that?I mean, Articus Decapidocious in 200 ad. Wow. Just saying I actually knew that. She did know that.And why do you Why do you know that?I wrote a paper for the Baylor journal in 2014.Nice. We've got some Smart people on the show today Eric.Definitely say it was a Greek physician, correct.He was Yeah, he cut open the stomach and was looking at how wheat interacted with it and didn't totally understand it, but knew that it definitely caused trouble called it coeliac or something. Second century AD. They were already realizing and we have people today going that's BS.Right? Right. Yeah. It's crazy. But I mean, you know, humans have only really eaten gluten for 12,000 years, probably. And so, I mean, bernie Sanders was there too. Yeah. Poor, Bernie, He probably invented the paleo diet.Eric, I have a question for you. Okay. Something occurred in the second world war that allowed us to realize that celiac disease was caused by gluten. Eric, why do you think that is?Well, Ken, is this when Wonder Bread donated millions of loaves and the Allied forces shot the Germans with ultra refined white bread causing diabetes,It would have worked and would have delayed the end of the war. Good guess i'm not saying you're wrong. That was really organic.You know, I know. You know. And so all right, Anne I'm gonna I'm gonna throw to you. It was the shortages, the food shortages and the incidences of gut disease went down. In the absence of eating the food they previously eaten right that cause trouble. So without eating the food they were accustomed to eating their gut troubles went away and absence of food soyeah food allergies discovered for sure. We're not just Baker'sNo. Oh my gosh, we have. So one last question before we do it, but if you have any history questions or history buff, make sure you pop into unrefined bakery, and throw out random questions,make sure you're asked for Anne on that one.Alright, so it was actually a Dutch doctor that noticed that his patients were getting better during that. So the last question, this is not going to be completely academic session. The last history question, Eric, how did this Dutch doctor figure out that gluten was the cause. I believe he locked his kids in cages and gavaged them with pretzels. And that's just wanted to see how sick they got. Okay, so we've had several shows where we described how animals have been gavaged and so Eric really likes the word gavaged.Especially when it's written out for me. I love it a lot.No, you're wrong. So I'll throw it. I'll throw this one to Taylor.So pretty close to that. Thank you. He did. He did take these kids. And he gave the celiac children and he gave them wheat. And then he just weighed the kids poop. And he looked for fat in it. See if they were passing that fat.Yeah. Did you know that? I did not know this. You didn't know that part?  I didn't came up. Didn't came up.Yeah. And then so... that's awesome. That was said. He figured out that the toxic part of the food was it was alcohol soluble, and then they figured this out. So it's very fascinating that it's been growing for a long time. And now we're finally at this point. So celiac disease now with it, we know the history. I just want to give a quick recap as a physician about celiac disease so we can get off the science and talk about the goodness that is sitting on our table right here. Absolutely. So just to introduce, reintroduce again, it's Anne and Taylor, her daughter I was exposed to walking into unrefined bakery a couple years ago in Frisco. And it was awesome. My wife is gluten free. And I just happened to stop in I grabbed a few treats. I was like, man, I hope hope this is good because you don't always get a great tasting product whenever it's gluten free. That's so true. That's the common occurence.When I took it home it was instant delectable delight for for her. She's like this tastes fantastic. Are you sure it's safe? Right? They said it was. She felt great. Came back. We've we've been customers ever since. Great. Do you shop in our Frisco location? Mostly?Mostly because it's the closest one to our GI center. Awesome. So it's, it's just up the road on Preston for us to get to it. So yeah, it's great. So Ken you want to ask them how they got it all started?Yeah, absolutely. So celiac disease. We already kind of mentioned that. It's super prevalent. It's an autoimmune process that's happening. How do you guys know so much about celiac disease?Well, we're kind of science nerds to the core and Taylor's little sister Aaron got sick. In college. She broke her ankle and got got mersa in her bone marrow. And the treatment for mersa was very harsh. And once she got over that, which was awesome, she got just sicker and sicker and sicker, had strep six times one year and mono twice that year and was really failing to thrive and then began bleeding internally. took her to a doctor. He was amazingly efficient and asked her her heritage, and we're Swedish. And he's like, let me check for celiac disease. Sure enough, he biopsied her, and she had it and then we read about it. And I was like, Wow, you've been symptom taylor's been symptomatic since birth And I've been symptomatic since about 18 or 19 years of age with it really increasing after pregnancy. So we just were like, well, it's just food. Let's just stop eating it. So we did.And I was diagnosed with milk protein intolerance as an infant where I was taken off breast milk and put on solids by what eight months, eight and half months, roughly something like that. I mean, I had quite a few gut troubles. I'm surprised she had more children. Honestly, I had extreme colic. Right. So she'd been off a dairy for ever. And then Aaron, like said been symptomatic forever and we all went off gluten together and never truly never looked back to see what was just a remarkable change in all of our bodies. Did you have trouble getting pregnant?I had eight miscarriages.Interesting. Isn't that so interesting? Yeah. 800-900% increase in miscarriage. I don't even have to kick any science. They're gonna do all the science for me. That is actually one of the things that I asked my patients. Have you had miscarriages Have you have trouble getting pregnant? AndI did not. But I've been gluten free long before I had my children. I've been gluten free for I mean, and obviously that never came up like never came up.So when you said that your daughter was bleeding internally, you mean that she was anemic and they were doing the workup for anemia or she was actually actively bleeding.So, yeah, so we just took her right into it to a gastroenterologist that did a biopsy. That's the first thing you did. So she got...wasn't in her infectious disease doctor first who passed her on, given her heritage. I thought he looked at her and was newly out of school and was like, you know, your doctor from her doctor was newly out of school and askedher heritage, you're so blonde and blue, oh, you're hypoxic. We need to get some air in you.You know, Northern European.But it's different now. With with getting wheat across the world now it's equally distributed across the globe. But this is mean, right? 15 years ago. They knew a little about it. Super interesting, so we didn't even hesitate. We just went off gluten.Let me let me ask you a question as a mom because I have a 15 year old a 13 year old Eric has an 18 year old and 17 almost 16. Almost almost 16 year old. When you see a child that's sick that it just it takes everything out.You just see it like I see or I see kids that I'm like, Oh, you have celiac disease. Like I can just see it. I know what Aaron looked like as a baby. And her eyes were always Like terrible circles since she and Taylor always had like skin you know skin stuff and Aaron was just her hair didn't grow right like it just she was just pale and not well, and once she went off gluten it just it just changed. It was just it was just remarkable for all of us but more so she was truly she was just wasn't okay. She had I mean we I was symptomatic since birth but I had different different symptoms that my sister had and you had pretty much self selected already. Like you just didn't eat bread anymore. I wouldn't. I was kind of self selected as a kid. I was like, I don't like that. So you knew that it was making you feel bad. From a very young age young before I probably could even correlate it together. I know that I stopped eating those things and she'd be like, why don't you one pizza as I kid.  Because we lived on it before you loved pizza.Erin and I ate more. Like a lot of people you eat. You eat more of what is making you sick because you don't understand it. You know your body kind of craves that thing.That's not uncommon so Aaron and I extra bread and pasta. We seem to we seem to see both sides of it. And with our customer base like we'll talk to moms whose kids have, you know, are celiac but also maybe have other combined allergies and she'll say it's really weird. He stopped eating these things even before we knew he was allergic. And I was like, well, we kind of have used the term self selecting for that because we see it's really frequently like kids, like my older son doesn't tolerate dairy. Well, he doesn't eat dairy. He doesn't choose it. He doesn't eat it doesn't have an allergy. No, but he just doesn't tolerate it well, so it's interesting how they you already sort of know that it's not a doesn't jive well with your system. So you avoid it. I did the same thing without even knowing it.Well, that's kind of how my wife started. She She was like, I, I feel bad and I don't know why I feel bad. And then suddenly, she starts drawing associations to whether having to be enjoying a beer or bread or pizza. Then suddenly, like what what do all these things have in common? I need to go get checked out. But back in the day because I can remember seeing a Dr. Phil Donahue show. And they had somebody on like way I don't even know The other Dr. Phil. Yes, like so long ago. Oh, he wasn't a doctor. He was phil donahue. My bad it was the Phil Donahue show.I put two generations together. Anyway, a long time ago probably in that Which one had the mustache? Donahue? No, they both do right? Did Donahue have one?Did Donahue have one?I don't think Donahue had one.He just had white hair at the age of 20They were talking about it wheat allergy and I can remember thinking well, who would be allergic to bread like it was so not in our consciousness. You know, like I just what and with her with her colic. I was I remember for me, I was eating a lot of eggs and lot of dairy because food is good for you. Right? And, and I ate a lot because I was nursing her. And I kind of cut it out for a week and she got better. I thought, well, it can't be that. So I didn't keep it going. Because it just never they that was 1982 and three Like it are three and four. They just they weren't talking about this stuff back then. I mean they were but it was, you know, there were some diagnosed cases of celiac disease than as there were, you know, in the 20s. And earlier but not, not in the mainstream.I would say people that still don't quite understand the seriousness that can happen from high gluten exposure to people that have celiac disease, they still dismiss it as it not being a real thing,Right. There are patients with celiac disease who dismiss it as not being a real thing. 'm sure you see it often. They'll be like, Well, last week, I just say whatever I wanted. And I don't even feel bad. I'm like, well, then you must have asymptomatic celiac disease, but your gut hates you. Right? Right. I mean, I don't tell them that but that's what I think.So everybody has a story about their gluten and I mentioned mine so my researcher that helped me develop Atrantil. So, you know, our whole thing with Brandi was that she was working for me and she had enamel problems she kept going to the dentist and having teeth issues. And then we were going to enroll her in a study and her liver Tests were up. And she was in she was sick and she had his weird rashes and she'd been worked up she was came from Iowa where the Iowa doctor said, Oh, you're fine, it's IBS. It's all fine. And then we're trying to enroll her in the study she had increased liver tests, ended up testing or figuring out she has celiac disease. So then I, out of courtesy, after we diagnosis, she started feeling better, I would go to lunch with her and I'd be gluten free, I wouldn't have these other issues. So and I checked myself with my least blood test, I don't have celiac but then I just started thinking, Wait a minute, this whole concept of gluten you can call whatever you want gluten sensitivity, gluten intolerance, all the other things. So when you say that the spectrum, and anybody that's listening to this, it says you know I have celiac disease, but I cheat all the time. Well, you have the risk of developing all kinds of stuff. lymphoma, you have the risk of developing osteoporosis you may not be running to the bathroom all the time. You may end up with UV itis which is an infection in the eye. This can trigger and Here's the biggest thing that I tell all my patients, you have one autoimmune disease. Now you are at risk for every other autoimmune disease, we have to control the one right so that you don't end up with thyroiditis, autoimmune hepatitis, ankylosing spondylitis, and all these others. So when people come into your store, and they're like, yeah, yeah, I like your cupcakes. But I have celiac that I don't tolerate it. My answer to everyone that I talked to is do you want lymphoma? Do you want to develop ankylosing spondylitis? And now we're seeing in the future, that if people carry this, it leads to inflammation, we know that inflammation leads to dimensia, things like that. So protect the gut, protect your body.But people will come to that in their own time in their own way. You know, you can't I don't preach gluten. Well, we obviously don't. I mean, we're not doctors. We're not offering medical advice in our stores. They ask our experience and what we've seen from our customers and we give them you know, stories and tales of what has helped us or some of our other customers, but we're obviously not going to tell them well What we may do is say, Well, you know, we have an awesome pizza crust that you can take home and make your life easier to where you don't feel like you need to order out. And you can still stay gluten free. We tried to just let them know about the options we have, because it is very challenging. I mean, I think my mom and my sister and myself approach being gluten free from a perspective that not everyone does. I think we looked at and we're like, Huh, well, celiac disease, probably probably the best disease you can have. It's completely manageable. It doesn't give you bad side effects if you do it properly. And it's not that difficult to wrap your brain around, doing it properly, at least from how we approached it. I mean, you have to accept that it is what it is. and food is medicine to us. Right. Solet's look at it beyond and not being the worst disease. You turned it into a pillar of a great business. Yeah, but But even before we didn't do this for about four years like, one guy came in he goes, isn't this the worst thing that ever happened to you? And I said, No. I said long before we started this company. No, it was the best thing Because look at what it did. I mean, I was what I thought was just super healthy 48 year old like I was, I was in great shape went off a gluten and I was 20 within two weeksI mean you weren't you still shad fibromyalgia and other things and joint pain. It all went away.Well once you were gluten free Yea. Yeah. right but i mean i think relatively speaking at 48 compared to other 48 year olds, I was remarkably healthy and then and I thought it was just age I'm like, Oh, I'm aging wasn't aging at all to heck with that.So why why would you eat something that making making you sick? Yeah, yeah, you know, I try not to.As I drink my Dr. Pepper still every now and then.I mean, I know we will talk about that. We're gonna get into that.  There's a there was a podcast that I like to listen to as a as entrepreneurs as people podcast called how I built this.Love it. I want to know how you guys built thisAwesome. So my background. So my grandfather, mom's dad had a franchise of restaurants that he started in late 50s that he became a franchisee for in the late 50's. So restaurants are sort of in our blood, but never something I thought I wanted to do. Restaurant hours were not something I had an interest in. I've been there done. I studied finance and accounting and I used to do litigation consulting. It was what brought me to Dallas. She came to Dallas shortly after I did. My sister graduated was, you know, off at college and beyond. So she moved. And well got out. I hated my job. I did not hate my job. She denied her job, but it was grueling and I hated my job and I'd always begged and what was your job? I came down here as a banker I'd been working with my dad had been a stockbroker, previously I have an econ degree. But I hated my bank job that brought me to Texas but I loved that I came to Texas and I was like, I'd rather die than keep this job like I've got to do something different. And so she began making these food bars for Erin in college because Erin's now celiac and needs food grab and go food well back then If you believe it it was before there were bars on the marketYou were making the bars?For my sister. i always cooked.So she was making food bars She was tired of just eating you know, nuts and dried fruit juices all she had available. This was years ago so Lara bar did not exist. So she Taylor then she packages them and gets this cute little gold T and then she puts a label on the back and I was like, and then she gives him to people as wedding gifts as well. What's it called? I don't know whatever get all. Yeah, so then I said what it was my idea to start a bakery She goes, we'll do it. Because if you don't, I'm going to do this. And I was just terrified to bake I had tried several recipes and they had just failed miserably. One day I did like four different recipes of cornbread and a several recipes of brownies and they were just the worst things ever. And I've been baking since I was little and I have been throwing away food since like 1963 or something. So anyway, I was like fine, I will learn how to bake so I just really jumped into it started reading about the different properties of the different flowers. Different flowers have different properties. And I figured out about some blends by looking like stealing some recipe ideas from a lady. And then I took that recipe and I morphed it and took some of the ingredients out. And then we just started baking, I made some bread that I thought would work and it worked. And it was a great So we we adapted old family recipes that were passed down from grandmother's that she had quick breads and dinner breads and things like that and just adjusted them to being gluten free and dairy free. Once we figured out how to do the flowersI've always been dairy free and dairy free since I was diagnosed dairy free at like, you know, eight months. So we started adjusting all the recipes, and we realized, hey so you're able to take old family recipes and convert them.That's exactly how we did it. Our first 19 recipes. Were family recipes. They were sort of our original, we still have almost all of them. That's nice.That is so cool. There's legacy in this there's tradition. That is awesome.Like my mother baked her mother baked her mother like it's just been my whole mother's whole side or huge bakers and then my dad's side are super bright, smart. Academic kind of people. And it just works. She and I are kind of the combination of both sides, which is I actually don't like to bake, which is comedy considering it's my business in fact. I love. I love helping people and I love serving others. And I love our product. And I love what we stand for. But you're the  nutrition side. Yeah. And I like to make everything healthier. And that's definitely of interest to me and always has been so she took family recipes, and then I would adjust it, we would make it vegan or we would cut the sugar we would increase you know, whatever it is that we were doing. So I would make sure that it tastes like if it didn't taste good. Like it had to be good and gluten free first. And then if we could decrease, we could take out the dairy. And she got she was so good at it that nothing has dairy in it anymore, but we just got great at taking the dairy out, but it and then we lowered the sugar significantly. But if it doesn't taste good, you're not going to eat it. So there's that balance of Yes, it's gluten and soy and dairy and corn free and 50% less sugar and it's organic, but does it taste good? And so you have to draw that line and having Enough sugar that is still palatable while knowing that you don't want people living on sugar. So we're really good yin and yang of making sure that the nutrition is is acceptable. While it's still really satisfying.  Optimal while edible.Yeah. Could be a T shirt and find optimal while edible. Edible while we will. Yeah, sure. So we started we started just the two of usWhat year was that? August 2010. Well, March March, we started subleasing space of 2010. January through March, we sort of worked on the website, ordered labels, things, things of that nature. You did what I'm sorry? Our first customer came in and we literally went, so we were subleasing. 6 days a month. So...We were subleasing space from him. She would like a private chef. He did South Beach diet. I mean, this is a long time ago. I don't even think it's still a thing. I mean, nobody even knows what that is today. But so she was she wasn't a gluten free facility. But she was. I mean, it was She was free because she was happy. She didn't do any grains. So we sublease space from her one day a week and then two weeks, Every other Friday, Two days. So six days a month is when we started. And that was the end of March of 2010. I think the second week we were there as somebody walked in. Yeah. This tall thin guy and we're like, but he's like, I this is this where I can buy gluten free products. And we were like,  what? How did you find? I mean, we have a website but..Let's back up a little bit. I'm super into how businesses are built. So are you guys sitting in your kitchen, making this stuff together and then taking it to this place?I was in my kitchen doing most of our recipes and she was in her kitchen doing the food bar and we honestly thought the food bars were going to take off and that the other stuff wasn't because she found outlets. She sent food bars or hand delivered food bars to a lot of people they weren't podcast back then no food blogs, food blogs, so she wouldn't in a food blog situation for I don't know 15 years, right. So we did That and then we did. We went to a celiac support group in Dallas and then we went to one in Fort Worth or North Richland hills North Richland hills, and brought our food. And at one of those two interesting things happen there. The first question they asked was, are you soy free? And we're like, Huh, am she and I never had had an issue with soy and really weren't paying attention to things besides dairy and gluten. And we're like well no but we can be because it happened in both groups that we met with, so we figured it must be important. And then at one of the meetings, a blogger for the Dallas Morning News, mom's blog was at one of the meetings. So then she came to us and asked if she could interview us, and she's celiac. Nice. Yeah, she's celiac. So she came in, she interviewed us and did a story in the Dallas Morning News, moms blog, which got maybe the most hits they'd ever gotten on a story, That's what they said comments. It had like 80 comments on the story. So then Nancy Chernin with the Dallas Morning News. Well Hold up. So we were baking in our original kitchen separate on our very own kitchens, we had already quit our jobs. We quit our jobs at the end of 2009.Is that was that a real difficult decision? You no, because you wanted it out was this for you? So I got married the end of August Excuse me, I'm sorry.You can always a hit that we have little we have Eric and I always do that. Sometimes.So you didn't you didn't teach me that? Now, I know I was so much more interested in the history quiz.So I got married august of 2009. And I quit my job in November, I think in my husband like August 29. So I mean, we're talking like a month later. And my husband's like, Yeah, I am. I'm not sure if I've married a banker. Like last I checked, he were doing litigation consulting. What happened to that? Yeah, but your hours were horrific.No they were there was it wasn't something we wanted. It wasn't sustainable to have a family. So you know, I quit my lucrative job. And now I'm an entrepreneur and I work all the time. So It's even better, Make less money and work all the time. But I love it so and it does it. It fills meDo you think like you're helping more people suing them or feeding them good food?Undoubtedly we are making a huge difference in people's lives. And it's awesome. So we baked in our own kitchens, yada yada, yada. end of March we started subleasing space. That blog came out maybe in April?It came out was super, super soon, Super quick. I mean, we tried to put ourselves out there but this is kind of this is before social media. I mean, Facebook existed, but it was like a college. But you know, it wasn't even for the general public. So it was a totally different situation. Which is even hard to believe today. But so then, in June, the people we are subleasing space from No, no, no, we came out in the Dallas Morning News on a Sunday on the back page of the Sunday edition of the of the whatever you open the newspaper up and we're the were the full page on the back page, titled building a better bakery like i'll never forget it. On that Tuesday, we sell out Oh my god, people were so excited. Wednesday they tell the lady releasing from that she loses her lease. And we're like, what? They won't let us put a note on the door. And so suddenly she's closed. Luckily, we had already at leased a second space. We had seen the success already. And we're like, okay, we just want to we can do this. So we were Yeah, we wanted to just prove ourselves. So we were baking one day a week, we would bake, we would freeze. And we were so tired. Do you remember, we were so tired. We thought it was so hard. It was all it was. And so then we we went ahead and signed the lease and started started construction and all of that on our first location. And then we lost our sublease because they lost their lease  the day after we came out in the Dallas Morning News, crazy. And we and we were closed for two months, because we had nowhere to go. So the timing was awesome.This is like with Atrantil we get knocked off. Yeah, we've been like knocked off Google after we did like a big podcast and you're like, Oh, look at that. Everyone's looking for us and you can't find us.Yeah, wonderful.I remember years. years later, somebody came in and said, Oh my god, you're still in business. We just assumed that you'd gone out because it happens all the time in new startups, and especially like there have been several gluten free bakeries that have started and stopped. And it's, you know, starting your own company is there's nothing easy about it. It's not easy. Definitely no easy. There's no rules. So we opened our we opened our first what we call our flagship, it was called White Rock. We used to bake there, and we had a retail presence. We were open Tuesday through Friday. No, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, at first We're like we have a specialtyJust You two?Yes. Still?We might have hired one person by then our first girl was Anna, who came back us after 3 culinary degrees. Anna is still with us and we love her.She came back to us. Wow. I know she's massively overqualified. But she's awesome.But it was us for quite a bit and then Anna came on and then we gradually started just hiring people. And then a year later, we doubled that space. We took over the lease next door and expanded ourselves. So then we had, you know, more retail, more seatingThat's when we add coffees and tea's and smoothies and sandwiches.We doubled our freezer capacity so something we do which is no secret within about an hour of production every product we make is frozen. It's packaged and frozen. So gluten free products on the market are sold frozen This is no mystery. If it's not sold frozen then it has a lot of stabilizers in it which is not something we believe in so we don't do that.say that one more time because...So if it's sitting on a shelf...It's full of junk. It has a lot of stabilizers in it. stabilizers preservatives chemicals bread is bread, you know bakery sell day old bread, bread is not meant to sit around for weeks because it's it molds it has or it gets dry and it's hard and nasty they sell and they sell daily bread for a reason. day old so we freeze all of our product as soon as it's cooled so it's perfect for you. It to enjoy for you know we say a year. I've definitely found product in my freezer from several years before that that we consume in my home. Now do I say that to our customers should you eat your product three years later?  I mean do what you want. We say it's great for a year. So, but we freeze all of our products so by then we needed another freezer so we doubled our space. And then... Sure. From a business perspective, sorry to interrupt but I love the idea of the entrepreneurship. No No, no, I just, it's as somebody who's an entrepreneur that is in the throes of it I just bogged down by the like, I want to know like what the relationship was, did you have to have somebody analyze the food after a year to say this is safe for a year.No, we did our own I'll take this part when we we used to bake something we would put it on the counter, we'd wrap it and put it on the counter, we'd put it in the fridge and we put it in the freezer, we would date it and then we would watch to see how how it landed you know and see how long it stayed soft and whatever on the counter and it always got hard long before it molded. Now like now, a sweet bread pumpkin banana bread. It'll mold before it gets hard because it's so moist, but we figured out how it would hold. And that's how we know like we found something in my freezer three and a half years later that was dated and we knocked the ice off of it and ate it and it was amazing. It's just sort of a interesting trial personally i mean but we did so we haven't had anything like we're not gluten free certified because we're dedicated gluten free and like who was it that said well I mean they say they are. We've just developed this reputation where people know that if we say it's this then they believe it is. But we also don't have cross contamination in our space with gluten and soy. It doesn't exist. It's dedicated. we built out. It used to be like a retail facility that is our production facility. And every product we buy is a certified gluten free product and by product i mean a raw gradient like organic brown rice flour, organic almond meal, like these things are already certified gluten free on their own, and that's everything we purchase. And we're in dedicated gluten free facility and what most people don't understand these certifications for organic or non GMO or or gluten free our per product they're not..I was gonna have eric comment on this because this is the stuff we would would you just tell the audience really quick, so you don't have gluten free stamp on it. And there's a reason you don't have the non GMO paleo friendly keto. explain to the audience what these mean, You have to pay a license to even have those monitors applied to your label Per product. And then some of them if it's what does it do the wheat foundation of celiac Foundation, not only do you pay the license fee, you pay 1% of all of your sales on top of that, because they..I mean it's prohibitive for us,especially, especially with the number of products we have if we if we were just trying to distribute five products across the US. Absolutely, they would be certified gluten free. And if and when we ever go that direction, they will be as well. However, am I going to certify all 15 types of cupcakes we sell on a daily basis? Absolutely not. Or all 8 sandwich breads.We're a dedicated gluten free facility. We will never have an issue of cross contamination with gluten, gluten, it's never going to exist or happen and we have literally Not had an issue with customers caring about that. Yeah, you know what I mean? Or getting sick? Well, they never could get so we only purchase certified gluten free raw ingredients like it. We have strict protocol, we have signage it on our doors that asks you to not bring in gluten containing items into our stores. We ask customers to leave Sure. Yeah. That's awesome. Because of customers are sitting there at one of our kids tables, and they Oh, and they are their kids might not be gluten free, but they open a package of goldfish. It's going to make my next customer sick. So... And it could make somebody like we're like, it would just make me sick for a couple of weeks. But it might it could send somebody to the ER like people can have huge reactions to it. So we just ask people to be respectful and they absolutely are. I mean, they look we have people especially in some of our center, our locations that have like sort of a real walkability factor. If they're coming in with a sandwich as they're walking and shopping. We'll just politely ask them to leave it outside because we're gluten free facility and we take it very seriously our cars our staff cannot eat outside lunch.So I just want to say One thing that I love the fact that your reputation precedes you and you are above these, these different labels and stamps and things like that, but these labels and stamps had to come about because people were skirting the system and they were lying. And that's what the supplement industry and that's what the food industry will do. So another industry was built upon it so that they could at least monitor it and you guys are like, No, we got it figured out.Every so often they share facility right? Most people don't build out their own production facility. So some gluten free cracker on the market is being made and another packed cracker distribution facility. So they have to test for parts per million because they're using the same machinery because that machinery is hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. So they go through a rapid cleaning process, whatever they do, and then they test parts per million to make sure it's under 10 to certified gluten free because it's on shared equipment. That's that's not something we're dealing Right because we're our own facility. I would also say that I'm not sure that I think that people are skirting the system or lying. I think that like if I'm let's say we don't have this great business and I'm wanting to buy gluten free stuff because my kids are super sick I probably wouldn't have done it for me but I would actually do it for my children right which is a lot of what we see at our stores is that's for the their kids often. I would I would need something that said it was certified because Am I going to trust blow Joe from you know, whatever town in some state that I can't get to, you know, we've earned this reputation because we grew organically pardon the pun, from area to area to area within the DFW area. So we're still in a small area even as we ship nationwide. But I also think there's a lot of trust within that dedicated gluten free facility I believe somwhere that's dedicated gluten free. Definitely. I will not eat a cupcake from somewhere that just sells a gluten free cupcake. Nope. Because it's probably next to the gluten cupcake.I've been burned on it so many times. You should see what our facility looks like. Like we've built out a dedicated room in our facility now to do the mixing because flour goes everywhere. And after one recipe, there is a...There's just a shrowd of flour all over everything within within Oh 20-30 feet Her point to that is that if it's a traditional bakery they're getting that flour everywhere you can't you can't all of ours are gluten free so we do it for cleanliness and right various other things. What did you get out of the machinery? You'll find gluten everywhere. Everywhere. It just it just goes up in the air. You can't help it. Like, people sometimes get upset that we have sprinkles, right? But some kids they can eat it so it's no trouble so if they can't eat gluten, soy, dairy, corn, eggs, peanuts, tree nuts, but they can eat our cookie and our cake. And they want to feel like a kid by having sprinkles on it because you know, Sally gets sprinkles on her cake from whatever bakery. By golly, we're gonna have sprinkles. It's not going to cross contaminate. Just don't we won't get sprinkles on your stuff like it's okay. But gluten and it flies. It flies. Yeah. So ya'll have the first store and it's now August 2009. We've gone...2010.2010 and then suddenly, when did you start to realize hey, we've got something successful. And we might even grow to a point where we have more than one location. We knew it from the get go.Right. So I think it's more of could we keep up? Oh Okay, So we knew that the demand was there immediately. Sure. So we doubled up our location, we built up a triple size freezer than what we initially had. This is at the White Rock location?And then as soon as we doubled up White Rock, we then were like, okay, a lot of our customers are coming from the north.Hour and a half away. Why are people driving from so far north from McKinney, Frisco? You know, now it's little Elm and prosper, but then it was like Alan,Richardson, McKinney, Frisco. So we started looking up north, and we opened our Frisco store in September of 2013. So it was our second location. Now we'd already doubled our initial location, but it was our second location. And then we opened. We opened our third location in November of 2013. But that was unusual. He would traditionally never open a store that quickly Back to back But now we've done that two more times. Not two months apart. Yeah, we did we opened medallion in in March and we opened Fort Worth in in June. So are you guys? Are you are you all self financing this whole time? We are that we're all self funded.So that is that's bold.Impressive and awesome. We are crazy. I like to say we are just crazy.That's part of what that's part of what our I wouldn't say delay, but it's not like we have immediately bombarded the whole market, but we see companies do this all the time. And it happens constantly, especially in this healthy eating space. There's multiple name brands that you can look at across DFW that have done this they have popped up 25 stores and they close 22 of them close in three years so it's happened time and again in this healthy eating space. I mean happens at restaurants especially but in retailWhen you expand it just out of curiosity obviously going from whiterock up to the Plano Frisco McKinney area probably made sense because you could tell what People were driving from like you said.Plus we were trying to spread it out. We didn't want to monopolize ourselves within a doable distance. Like we didn't go to Austin because it would have been too hard to control.I understand,You know, but we felt like we could control from and whiterockrock to Frisco and we could.  And we didn't feel like the Frisco market would cannibalize our White Rock store either. So that was our initial goal in our growth kind of market and we looked at some of these other healthy eating space brands that have popped up all over and we looked at where they were and we looked at where our customers are coming from, do we pay and have studies completed? No, we didn't. But we looked at our our customer base and where we would want to shop because we are our own customer.That's interesting, because there's there's a friend of mine from my hometown and he started taco casa. And the way he decided on where he allows people to have a franchise and open up the places he will look for a taco bell and or a McDonald's and then see what the traffic is.They've already done their due diligence.So I'm thinking your store in fort worth if I remember right is on Hulen. Yes. Is that correct?It's underneath Central Market.Yeah. So not far from Central market, but it would make sense off of hulen to be in a place, so is that kind of how you piece that together because your Frisco location makes sense.We grew up in the business, we've watched, I've gone with my dad to look at site selection with the National franchise group. So we and she grew up running the stores. So we kind of knew the brains behind that. But also, we're a destination location, whereas most restaurants are not most restaurants. It's a cluster location, but we're more of a destination. We're very unique so that that's why we could open up our first location was probably in an ABCD spectrum. It was probably a D location or a C location. I think it was it was technically classified as a C location. But it didn't matterLike never like today, we would never put a location in aC location, but it was our original and our Flagship. There are things that we look forward to had parking, which is a huge thing to us, like Parking is huge for us are, you know, soccer moms are a huge part of our clients. Oh, I am my own clientele. My kids are both gluten free. So I just want to comment on this because you said something really cool. We could have paid the money to have market analysis, but we knew who our clients were,We know our customers. We are our customers. So that's we have we have baked for ourselves the entire time, which I also think is why the quality is different than most gluten free places. We'd literally eat our own food. And if I don't like it  if I don't like it, we don't make it.Love that.Because I've got she calls me a super taster. Like, it's gotta have enough sugar but not to much. It's actually really annoying.  But it's great and you know, both sides. Yeah, I just asked if it doesn't taste good. Why are you going to eat it like it's baked food is comfort food. It makes you feel good. Like the first gluten free bread I had after we got diagnosed was a I'm just Can I say that? No, don't say the brand. It was a white hamburger bun. See look I filtered filtered. That has never happened. Put it on the calendar. Never happened. It was a hamburger bun that was shelf stable for a year and it was on the counter. And it was just like almost like eating styrofoam. How delicious Do you think that was? Not very. You know, and I was like, so we didn't eat bread like I literally none of us ate bread till we really started baking because we just let it go. Because it wasn't worth the calories like to me like carbs are a happy calorie and if it doesn't taste good, then why are you going to eat it? But it's true, like we will dine out and my kids will say I'll ask them all ,buddies. Do you guys want a hamburger bun today? And my oldest boy, he'll say, well, who makes it? Who what brand is it? And he's like, discerning He's like, well if it's that bad I want that one. He doesn't want to he doesn't like it. It's not his it's not it's just not worth the calories. Well, that's not how a 9 year old thinks. That's not how he says it but that's what he's thinking it's just not worth it. He's like, I don't like it. I'd rather have more french fries. So he's already made but he's making those choices without knowing that he's making those choices. By right we so back to your did we pay for market analysis but we're also not necessarily answering to anyone either. We are we are our board of directors we are bank we are loving we have the ability to make those decisions where you know the larger companies they might have to answer to their investors or whoever else andWell they would have to. Right this is why they want to put something somewhere and this shows that.So when I when I read about different successful companies one that comes always pops into my head is Southwest Airlines. And the CEO you know the name of the CEO I always forget. Gary Kelly. Just keep her around. She knows everything.It's a because we have to deal with this real like you cannot please everybody. And it's the whole story where a woman was complaining and would send an emails about how she didn't like this, this and this, which are all standards for Southwest like you're gonna wait. You're going to get in Group A, B or C. And he wrote back. Thank you for being our customer. We hope you enjoy the next airline you fly. Basically we're not catering. This is who we are. You don't have to cater The people that want to come to unrefined bakery, they know what they're going to get. They don't need a stamp on it. And you built this with your model with your convictions with your money and so you don't answer to anybody. And you can do this unapologetically. If somebody says that the super taster did a bad job tasting doesn't matter, she's the super taster. There you go. But, but on the flip side of that we do very much listen to our customers. And that I think has been probably our most pivotal point of our success, right, is that we listen to what our customers want. Do we listen to their complaints? I answered them all personally, She doesn't let me come close to those. Every single one of them. We have very, very few complaints are our customers love us people cry in our store. It's actually part of our training for Front of House staff is how to deal with the crying mom, because it happens. Really? All the time. weekly in every store.Give me an example of how that would go down.Okay, I wanna give one. Sure you give one and i'll give one. A lady comes in years ago her husband's with her she's got, it's from when we were in White Rock, but you can repeat this like every week in the store.Every week. Yeah. Kids in tow and they're all like got Cheshire Cat grins and she walks in and she goes, What's gluten free? Happens all the time. We said everything. And her husband and kids knew that she didn't know it was like their gift surprise to her. And they brought her because she I'm gonna cry. And she just started crying. She did. And normally it's the parent crying for the kid. But this was the mom that was celiac. And the family had done this for her and brought her to us. And it's just, it's why we do what we do. Like it's why it's why we've grown. It's why we've put the money back into the business to get into the market as best we could to make sure that we'd be successful. Because if we didn't grow like we did, somebody else would have come in and grown People have come in and some people have already left. But we needed to saturate the market as best we could with our own limited funds. Because we we think we're the best in the country. What we do, we're we're organic, we pay attention to the ingredients we do as little sugars we can't we do as the least harm that we can with the best ingredients that we can to bring you the best product that we can. And I think that we succeed. I mean, I think it's good food.As a customer, I could say, I trust everything that you're saying delicious.And we really care, We won't ever make sacrifices in terms of the quality of our ingredients. If anything we have we not acknowledging we have simply improved the quality of our ingredients. We never started being as organic as we are. We're basically 98% organic.  There you know We started off being about 50 or 60%. Like when they were kids, I tried to buy healthy food as best I could within the realm of what I knew back then. We started off being gluten free and then immediately went soy free, and then quickly started taking the corn out because people say can you take the corn out? And we're like, well, even and we didn't even use organic corn at first. And then we're like, well, we can use an organic corn. But even then it's just a starch and doesn't really add value. So what's causing people trouble? But it just snowballs. I mean, the more you The more we know the better we do. Like that's how we have grown And we're better at making recipes now like everything's better.How hard is it to when somebody says can you do something without soy I can do something without corn? How hard is it to redo these recipes, the familial recipes. Oh it's hard.it was very hard but it's it's complete. So we're not there's nothing more to change at this point. Today we we've kind of focused more on growing our Kido line that's been our largest so these days not only are we a gluten free bakery, and and, you know, an allergen bakery in general that's sort of how we're known but we're also known for just catering to special diets. Whether that's and I don't mean diet isn't Oh, you're on a diet. I mean, diet is in this is how you fuel your body. So whether keto,vegan,paleo, those are all diets, we cater to tremendously vegan because by eliminating dairy and eggs, such common food allergies, we have vegan products, and then keto because we already it's difficult keto baking is intrinsically Difficult as is paleo baking paleo baking is easier than keto baking. We need to back up paleo baking is no grains, no sugar, no dairy, no legumes. Keto takes it further they don't want even this sugar from say the bananas that we would use in a paleo muffin to sweeten so they want an alcohol sugar to replace the sweetener. So the body doesn't take it as a sugar and they want and no starch And no starch so you can't use the tapioca or era root. 20 total carbs per day.So you're baking predominantly with eggs and seeds, nuts and seeds and a lot of people do keto in a very 1990 Atkins way where they're supplementing with cream cheese and other things that they're baking with but our keto was all organic and dairy free, which is highly unusual Super hard because when I tried keto it was basically do cheesy eggs in the morning cheesy eggs for lunch and cheesy eggs for dinner.Butter bombs, you know, little butters cream cheese and don't eat too much avocado because you know it has too many carbs.You have to Be really careful. It's awesome because what I Hearing though is you're meeting your customer where they're at but doing it with your standards. That's exactly right. We we know that...We won't change our stores. Yeah, our people come here. And I hear that you're wanting this. We're going to try to meet you. But we're going to do it this way in the most ethical way possible. I think it's fantastic.  Somebody said to me, Well, I had a keynote cupcakes the other day, and it was better than yours. I was like, that's awesome. That's great. And, and they emailed me the ingredients to it, because they thought we should make it and I was like, well, none of we don't use these ingredients. We you can't even pronounce these ingredients like this is not this is this does not meet, unrefined's way of doing anything. It's not organic pastured eggs, it's I mean, we're just not going to sacrifice our kind of core competencies and core beliefs to make a product that she thought was more palatable. She's Welcome to buy their cupcakes And just to clarify, the reason we do it that way is because we really think that the the junk in the food The reason it's called junk, you know, the chemicals and preservatives, the additives, the colorings, all that stuff, we believe to our core That that is part and parcel of why people are getting so sick. It's not just the gluten and it's not just the dairy. It's not just the sugar. It's the combination of all of that junk. I couldn't agree more.Well, I mean, so everybody sits in so I get this all the time where patients will will tell me Oh, yeah, I don't know, I feel a little sick when I have gluten, but I know that's just a thing that doesn't really exist. And you start looking at Okay, it's not just the gluten. It's the amylase trypsin inhibitor that's there that the that's the GMO wheat that allows it to be pesticide free. Now we know that creates intestinal inflammation. That's a very simple thing. Now we know I had a patient today where she was talking about being bloated and she had her pocketbook out and a protein bar was sitting right there. And I was like, do you mind if I look at this and I pulled sugar alcohols Winner Winner it said no, it said non dairy, non gluten but it was making her bloated like crazy sugar alcohol. That's awesome for your gut. Yeah. Exactly and then yeah, and so it's it's funny, you're exactly right once it gets put in a package can sit for a year on a shelf. There's all different kinds of things going on with this.So y'all, y'all are y'all just opened your seventh location? Seventh retail locations. Seventh retail location. And ya'll also do special packaging and shipping for people who are on the contiguous 48. Yeah, yeah, we shipped to all 48 lower states. You know, the 48 contiguous. Yep. And then we also have a pretty large wholesale businessHold on and one special customer in Alaska. I'll just say one special shout out to my sonMy brother lives in Alaska.We used to ship him cookies in Iraq so Yeah we did Alaska is nothing compared to Iraq.Wow, that's fantastic. Y'all do cold pack shipping i guess?So we ship with dry ice across the US, but it's not required for everything. So some of our products especially locally within like a UPS ground delivery system within a day, which is Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas, I mean a pretty good chunk of the regional US that we're in is next day so most of our products can ship next day no problem I mean we asked for you to freeze them to prolong shelf life and but they're not going to go bad in a day so a lot of people opt against the dry ice shipping but then things like our cakes and our cookies we require dry ice shipping for sure. So a lot of people add that plus their breads and other things to their cart and checkout. Or pies. Yeah, we ship our piesPies are fantastic By the way Can you giveme since I've met Eric his seasoned with your stores, but I've not been into one of yours which I'm going to do probably tomorrow. Can you tell me that that you'd like a brief list of the types of products that you carry or that you make?Yep. So when you walk into our stores, we kind of act as though the freezer section of the grocery store you shop at whether it's central market or whole foods or Kroger or anywhere else. You look in the freezer section of the gluten free staples you have your sandwich breads your dinner breads, your hamburger and hot dog buns all your various muffins and your pizza crustpizza crust is in our top three most popular products Pies. I meanY'all have dough's too. we do. Pie dough and cookie dough. Pie dough and  cookie dough cookie dough so we I like to say we make everything gluten free with exception of pasta and crackers. So pasta and crackers are not items we make nor will we make people like oh you should make that I'm like why never made it before I'm I don't have the equipment for it. We stick with our with it our expertiseSo pasta and crackers are never going to be something in our wheelhouse it just doesn't work with our model but anything baked whether it's quick breads or you know and then obviously all of our cupcakes and cookies and custom cakes, custom cakes are huge for usCustom cakes?Anything like 50% of our sales. No kidding Shut the front door.That is that is so labor intensive.Well it is but our but where else are they going to get a gluten free dairy free soy free corn free peanut free tree nut  free. Where else are they going to get a cake that tast tjhat good and that every recipes a custom recipe for that item like not like we use a mix. Like every recipe is different. Do you go so far seems like wedding cakes and stuff like that? We do. Absolutely.Wow you guys do not hold back.That is all her area I make it taste good and she helps people make it pretty.So we have a cool thing that are you know unrefined loyalist follow for us. We have our cupcake of the week or our cow as we affectionately call it the launches every Friday. I believe this is the Cult following seventh year we've done cow. So we've been doing every week for seven years, a new cupcake of the week, launches every Friday morning at 9am on social media, and then it hits all of our stores that day, whatever time they open, and they last until it sells out and it's always a custom flavor. And we bring back our favorites like what's today, Thursday. Tomorrow, Oh no! First time ever.Oh wait. Is this like an early leak late for the cow.Tomorrow's our cookie monster will go nuts for so it's like a chocolate chip cake and it's filled with a chocolate chip cookie cream and it has a whipped vanilla buttercream to with chocolate chip cookie crumbles. And its people just love it. You are going there tomorrow.Oh yeah.The best one is the overload the chocolate overload which is my favorite.Chocolate over it. So we have like probably five most requested cows, the overloads one of them, it's a chocolate cake. It has our fudge brownie bakes into the center. And so it kind of is gooey and then crispy on the top. And then it's topped with ch

Happy Starlight Eorzeans! In this last episode of 2019 we discuss the Starlight Celebration event, the updates to Blue Mage, and an interview with Masayoshi Soken about Shadowbringer's music. Thank you for a fantastic 2019. Have a wonderful Starlight - can't wait to see you all in 2020! Merch: (Limited Edition shirt and Anniversary Mug now available.) https://teespring.com/stores/speakersxiv MogMail: https://speakersxiv.com/mogmail/ ► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/SpeakersXIV ► Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SpeakersXIV ► Catch us LIVE on Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/speakersofhydaelyn ► Speakers Discord: https://discord.gg/ATBUccS

All right. Welcome to the gut check project. I'm here with your host, Dr. Kenneth Brown. I'm Eric Rieger. This is gut check project, Episode Number 26. We're going to wind up 2019 with some awesome info. What's up, Ken?What's going on Eric? How are you doing, man? Episode 26. Unbelievable. I apologize if I'm a little too sexy today because I'm just coming off of a small cold. I think the hottest people are those that are sick.Well, I'm not sick. I'm post sick. Remember, the viral prodrome. The reason why we always like pass so many viruses is that you tend to pass the virus before you even know that you're sick by the time you're actually sick. You're probably okayYeah. At that point you can go back and say I heard you might be sick. I was too back then.Yeah, exactly. Good to see you?Well, today's episode is going to be pretty awesome. We're going to tackle number one, we've received tons of email in your clinic because you also sell the KBMD CBD at your clinic, you get these questions. These have been coming in Fast and Furious over the last little over 14 days. And it's questions about the safety of CBD oil and its application. So we're going to tackle that I do need to tell everyone. Thank you. We're on episode 26 because the first 25 shows were so well supported by all of you who've been keeping up with a gut check project. We grow every single day. Paul, the guy who's helping us put together the production now and helping us spread the word. We just hung up the phone with him. We've gotten more and more downloads each week. So thank thank you every single one of you for liking, sharing, emailing, telling your friends about it. We sincerely appreciate it.We learned so much about it like today we have a new a different guests we do Instead of gutsy our little mascot or green frog, but since we do film on a green screen, he gets blocked out did not know that didn't even realize that. So now we're going to go with a dung beetle, right here? Yeah, yeah, we did. So that's Dilbert, the dung beetle,Dilbert, the dung beetle. So one of my favorite things is whenever we're bringing any patients back and somebody sees you, and they're like, hey, you're Eric, I watch your show that just warms my heart. So if you happen to be a patient and show up and you watch the show, if you say that it just makes us both feel really, really well...needed wanted, appreciated.Yeah. At least outside of me putting you to sleep. Take five or six good deep breaths. Exactly. Today's episode is sponsored by Atrantil. Your bloating relief, it's what we do. So go to Atrantil.com or lovemytummy.com/KBMD. Today it's also sponsored by KBMD CBD oil. You can find your own KBMD CBD oil at kbmdhealth.com which of course, the initials KB, Kenneth Brown, it's endorsed by the guy who's sitting across the table from me. So Ken, why is...What does MD stand for? Well, I'm not really sure.I thought it was your buddy Mike Doyle, but I don't know.Yeah, it's probably. So tell us a little bit about KBMD CBD. Alright, so KBMD CBD oil. I got involved with the science of CBD because I saw the beneficial effect with my patients when we developed Atrantil I then learned that the science of Atrantil the polyphenols in it actually augment CBD. So I'm seeing this combination do incredible things for people. So this particular CBD is one that we have researched, I've seen it work clinically. And we know that it comes with a certificate of analysis. It is organically grown, it is naturally extracted with co2, so it meets all the criteria that you want in your CBD because this is important. The rest of this podcast is going to be all about the dangers of CBD.Definitely and It's really interesting since we do have so many people who have begun to purchase CBD find benefit. It's really kind of weird what's occurred over the last two weeks. And what I would say is a little bit of misinformation. But it's more or less probably just misunderstood information and or or misapplied information. But regardless, the benefits of CBD used correctly, have been undeniable with the people who've come back through the clinic with people that we've scoped, and how well that they are doing. And so, hopefully today, we're going to provide some context on why more or less the dangers that you may or may not have read about in the news recently are really a little concerned. But we'll, we'll see. We'll see how far along we get in at the last. The last thing. Our last sponsor is the KBMD health box. You can find KBMD health box by going to kbmdbox.com. Now last week we did a full unboxing which is something I think we're going to try to do at least once a month. But essentially, if you want almost $300 of physician vetted supplements that can help you benefit your life and get them for only $147 which you would spend, not you would spend more than $147 worth of time driving somewhere to pick them out for yourself and having someone handpick them for you. Go to KBMDbox.com. What was one of the things that we had a patient come through just earlier this week, who showed us his lab results that he took to his primary care physician? So we're starting to make a difference in the landscape of health here in the DFW Metroplex and different places. I've been getting emails and calls from people around the country that will actually hear the podcast and then they'll want to sign up for the box. And what we're seeing is that these vetted supplements actually are making a difference with both subjective how they feel and objective the labs. So the reason why I chose these things is they all have third party analysis. And they all have some scientific background that actually explains how they're going to help you. So much so that I'm thinking of ordering my household, another box. So although it is the KBMD Health box, I actually I love the fact that I can get these things that I'm going to purchase anyways, they come into my house, so my whole family's on it. Now we're running out of stuff. So I'm gonna end up having to double up on everything. So it's one of those things that I feel really good that we can look at different aspects. And when somebody says, Oh, I tried X, Y, and Z, I didn't notice anything. I'm like, oh, did you try one that had a third party analysis? No. And then they do and they're like, Oh my gosh, big difference. Same thing with CBD. I mean, a lot of CBD out there doesn't really have what's on the label. And we're going to get into that because we're going to talk about what the FDA thinks about it. We're going to talk about the different media and what they're doing, and hopefully get into all that but that's the whole point of that box is I want to deliver these vetted things to your house monthly so that you can continue to improve your health. Hundred percent. So without further adieu, be sure to like and share the gut check project. We certainly appreciate all of the support to date. We're going to hop right into it. So what we've received here recently is a lot of speculation and concern from people who have said, Hey, I'm interested in CBD. I know that you and Dr. Brown have heavily studied, been entrenched with CBD and its application over the last few years. I just learned that the FDA is associated or made public a study that says that it may be hepatic toxic or bad for my liver. It's, unfortunately, it's a weird jump off point. So I'm going to kick it to you. Because immediately I had lots of different thoughts and instead of getting emotional, what did we do? We went and tried to find the sources of where this information came from. We want to backtrack on how they got to that conclusion. And I think that we can put a lot of questions at ease and even help people learn how to be a little bit more critical with the data that they receive when they receive it. Because let's face it, lots of stuff that we see on the internet, or that we hear on the news or reading the paper, it's basically clickbait. It's basically things to keep you engaged, whether or not the actual substance is worth the headlines that are written so...So what you're referring to is recently the FDA put out a statement, a consensus statement in the news and it's making all kinds of traction in the news that they're saying that CBD is not as safe as people think not only that it can be harmful. Now this has bled onto TV and my patients have been asking me about this FDA statement. Then there's been other news articles like the one that Forbes published, read said that CBD causes liver failure. Failure. That was the title liver failure caused by CBD. I want to get into all that I wanted to take a really deep dive into the science of all of this as a gastroenterologist, I'm board certified gastroenterologist, which means not only am I a simple country, butt doctor from Texas, but we actually have to learn liver disease, hepatology, I'm not a hepatologist like some of my other friends where I send like really complex things, but we at least have to understand the liver, how it works and what it does. So a lot of these articles discuss this but they don't clarify so many little things. Because and they shouldn't it's a it's a journalist writing an article they want they want it to be shared. And anytime you mentioned CBD, anytime that that is thrown out there, you're going to get some clicks, you're going to get a whole lot more clicks. If you say you're going to die from taking CBD. It reminds me of the I remember Jerry Seinfeld was on Saturday Night Live one time and they were making fun of the nightly news where they always do the promo at like three o'clock. Like five household items that are guaranteed to kill you, tonight at six.You're like what? If it was so important, they probably wouldn't make you wait.No, I'm gonna die before you put this on the air. So what I'd like to do is talk about the briefly the science of the endocannabinoid system and CBD, then do a little bit deeper dive into the liver. So everyone's going to get a primer on the liver 101 here, because these studies don't make sense unless you know, some of this knowledge. It's just sensationalism. For some of it, some of it is a little bit unfair. I think some of it is for what the FDA got, and it's there. But I just want this podcast today to be something that can be useful for industry people that can be useful for patients or people that are thinking about taking CBD and it can be useful for a subset a small subset of people that may be should not consider taking it. Yeah. So all of this is kind of, you know, for the future of this podcast, It's almost going to be a bit of a rebuttal. Not necessarily a defense of hemp derived CBD. But let's just buckle up and kick some science. This might be a little bit I don't know how long we're going to go where we're going to go with this. We're just going to feel it out and see what happens. But I at least want to be able to explain why I still believe that a lot of people should be taking CBD even though Forbes is like you're gonna die from this.Yeah. It's not arsenic people. No it isn't and I think another cool application here is there are people out there who have been on the fence on whether or not I should try CBD or is this something that's good for a family member for me? And unfortunately, there you hit this intersection, where a news headline is written that CBD causes liver failure. Well, if they've been on the fence, that's a pretty big No, no, right? So now you've taken away maybe an avenue that they were considering to help them out. What I hope that we can do with this particular episode is basically let's temper and let's see things in context. I think context is a word that as you get into sensationalism is something that is kind of the rescue item. If I could put something into context, then at least I'm giving someone a fair chance to understand the information that's before them. I don't feel like sensationalized headlines do things like that. Then again, I also don't feel like someone who shakes, hand picked or cherry pick studies is doing that either. So what I think today that we can do is fairly evaluate and talk about the process of how the liver works, and why some of these studies are or are not applicable to the nature they were presented.Absolutely. So the first one we got to discuss is what what what the heck did the FDA say? Sure. So the FDA came out and they mentioned that they've got several issues with the safety of CBD. The two main ones that they're really concerned about are potential for liver injury, and interactions with other drugs. What they actually said is that they're concerned that people may mistakenly believe that trying CBD can't hurt the agency wants to be clear that they have seen only limited data about CBD safety. And these data point to two real risks that need to be considered as part of the drug review and approval process for the prescription drug containing CBD. Interesting. Now, what I say this is because the FDA is referring to the data that was presented to them by GW Pharmaceuticals, who has a epid... eipdi..x you know?E-p-i-d-i-o-l-e-xYes, which is the first FDA approved prescription CBD isolate,Right,for seizure disorders.It's important to point out that is not full spectrum. Correct. That is not full spectrum. And there's some that's important because here later in the podcast, and think we're going to draw some comparisons and just if you're listening, just remember, epidiolex is a CBD Only isolate it is not a full spectrum product.So let's talk about what the FBA what the FDA actually does. So the FDA has a really daunting task. The Food and Drug Administration is responsible for protecting the public health by ensuring the safety, efficacy and security of products. So it is super daunting because there's a lot of products hitting the market, and the FDA has tried keep up with this to try and protect people. And let's be honest, let's look at the elephant in the room. The elephant in the room is that there are a lot of bad CBD products out there. Yep. In fact, in a jam article 2017 showed that 70% of the CBD products that they looked at did not have what was on the label and what was there could be higher levels of CBD could be lower levels of CBD. So it's a gamesmanship that's going on right now. So it is totally true that you need to make sure that you've done your homework on what type of CBD that you're actually taking. There currently is little to no regulation in the CBD industry. There is the President and CEO of Natural Products Association NPA. His name is Daniel Fabricant. He's a PhD. I love this quote. He's quoted as saying it is well past time to bring science into the equation, as federal rules require safety and Consumer Protection must come first. I agree. And we all agree with that. Sure. And I think that all companies that have reputable CBD companies, they all want that. Problem is when you have these different stories leaking out, which gain much more traction, it just starts creating a little bit of confusion misconception, and then people don't really know where to turn. So the feeling is, is that possibly statements by the FDA saying that it creates this narrative that questions the safety of CBD overall, strictly to address a few number of companies which are producing quite frankly, some crap products.What was the number that we learned the last time that we were in Utah at meeting I believe it was one out of every 23 to 24, I could be off it was definitely in the 20s. But every to every 23 or 24,25, CBD labels available for retail purchase. One is seen as a reputable well marketed or correctly labeled product, which means that even if it happens to be off a little bit, you've got 23 or 24 other labels which are just not truthful or probably not correct, don't have a certificate of analysis or are blatantly, just not even what's in the bottle.100%. There's a lot of people out there trying to take advantage of this wave that's coming. So I do not. I believe that the FDA is doing their job by looking at the data that was actually presented to them Agree. So let's take some time and break all this down for the consumers, health care providers, industry personnel. Starting with the question, does CBD cause liver damage? Unfortunately, or fortunately, because I like science we really need to talk about what the endocannabinoid system is. Because if somebody's listening to this, they're like, Well, I was thinking about taking this but I'm worried becasue it can cause liver failure. I don't know why I'm taking it. Why in the world should I be taking it? So let's do a quick one minute discussion of the endocannabinoid system. Let's do it!All right, the endocannabinoid system. The endocannabinoid system is a system which was discovered in the 90s that we now realize it's probably everywhere in the body. There's primarily two different types of receptors, but essentially, the way that I try to explain it to my patients, it's concentrated more so in the neural areas, nerves, brain and the immune areas. Although we now know it's in every single organ, that's where all the original research was. We now realize that its job, the endocannabinoid system is to produce these products called endocannabinoids. Which work as traffic cops. They just kind of get your body to get back to an area of balance. If you've got too much activity, they go Whoa, slow down a little bit. If it's not enough, they go, come on. Let's go ahead and get some more going here. So you have this fantastic system in your body that really just tries to keep balanced. Think of it that way. And you're going to hear a little bit later why I think most of America is out of balance. I think most of America needs some replenishment of their own endocannabinoid system. So that's the important thing is is that there's a dire need to try and get us all back to a certain balance, because the reality is we're getting sicker as a nation. And one of the causes could be that we took hemp derived foods out of our diet and out of our livestock diet. And there's a theory on that, that possibly that's one of the reasons why we're having more autoimmune diseases, why we're having more of the other problems that we're seeing, Well at least contributing factor.Certainly at least a contributing factor. So keep this in mind. So the the primer on the endocannabinoid system is if you're, if you have ears and you're hearing this, you also have an endocannabinoid system, and you have a higher than likely chance that you are out of balance with that. And if you are out of balance with that, then you probably could benefit from some of this. Sure. So right now you're going well, I'm out of balance, I'm going to probably benefit but I'm going to go into liver failure if I do this. So let's talk about what liver failure means. You have a genius living within you. You probably have multiple geniuses living within you.Thank you. That feels great. Sometimes the voices in your head don't say to do bad things.The evil genius. Yeah.Well, one of the geniuses living within you as this beautiful origin called your liver. So you have this and it's amazing. So to understand where they're going with this, let's talk about what the liver actually does. So we all have livers. And they work differently in every single person, and they can continue to adapt, evolve and change. One of the only organs that you can transplant a partial portion of it and it will grow into a full liver. So the nephrologist think that the kidneys, the smartest organ, the neurologists will think that the brain is the smartest organ The cardiologist says if you don't have blood, you can't think so It must be the heart. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm gonna say, well, for health span, smartest organ in the body is the endocannabinoid system. So eventually, we're going to have Endocannabinoidologists. Because what ends up turning out is that the endocannabinoid system is in all these different organs.Correct.They're not completely separated. So let's talk about the liver. The liver is responsible if you ever wonder what the liver does. So do you have any idea what the liver does? I've got a little bit of an idea... Little bit of an idea. So the liver is responsible for selective uptake, concentration, metabolism, and excretion of the majority of drugs and toxins, also known as xenobiotics. So let me just say that again. Basically, the liver takes the crap that you bring into the world. And it says, I'm going to convert it to something useful, or I'm gonna get rid of it for you. Yeah, it can detoxify it, or it can say, Oh, you need to be this and then you're useful. That's why I say it's a genius in your body. And it the liver figures this out, it figures out what you need, and it determines if it's a drug, or if it's a toxin, and it can turn into a better form. Now, one of the problems I have with these different articles that I've been reading, is that they discuss that then enzymatic process called the P 450 system, and they just write it like that they're like, CBD has been shown to affect the P 450 system. What doesn't affect the P450? So that's the issue. So let me break that down, I bring up the P 450 because in the lay literature without even describing what it is, it is a complex. It's called a phase one metabolism of the liver. Under p 450. It's an umbrella term that has over 60 different genes, that code for hundreds of enzymes to break down anything that comes your way. So the P 450 enzyme is like saying, Oh, I don't even know an analogy, but it's top of the funnel down. It's like you just so generic,  that you can't just say that. So but they write it in the lay literature almost as a sounds sciency so I'm sure that it's, I'm sure that it's right. That's kind of my feeling on I'm like, why would and all these people it's almost like these news articles parrot each other. And nobody's stopping going, wait a minute, because as it turns out, the P450 system, not the P450 enzyme, the system breaks down almost everything that we put in our bodies. Yeah, no joke. So a lot of going back to the pharmaceutical days, I remember that was one of the biggest challenges with with any of the drugs that we detailed a physician on was, how is it affecting the P 450. And that would be something that they would be all salespeople be coached on that before they would go on calling a physician. But the truth is, it doesn't have to be a compound. It doesn't have to be a medical pharmaceutical compound for that to be somewhat important. Something as simple as grapefruit juice. Also, detectibily inhibits the metabolic ability of the P 450. So there's all there's a handful of different drugs that people who are elderly, maybe caution, don't drink grapefruit juice, because it will inhibit your ability for your body to clear this particular drug. And I say that to say this. It's not nothing is inherently just special because it does or does not directly affect the P450, almost everything you take into your body is either cleared quickly or slowly by that same system.Yeah, so they kind of imply like CBD is the only thing that gets...Not even close....that gets processed in the in the P450 system. In fact, we know that there are multiple medications that can be altered by certain foods. Grapefruit is the most common one, and that really affects like immunosuppressants tremendously and that's where it really came up. When they realized, oh my gosh, you have these different drugs, let's say blood thinners and immunosuppressants, which have a very narrow therapeutic window, you have to have these things like right dialed in. Yeah. And then people talk about grapefruit but you know, other things that have actually been shown to do this cranberry juice, black tea, pepper, even chocolate Yep. has been shown to affect drug absorption and they have been shown to affect certain pharmaceuticals. We don't even know the tip of the iceberg on this because you have to do the study on it. You have to do the pharmaco kinetics, the PK is what it's called to actually determine that which is so funny because they say oh CBD is metabolized by the P450 system. That means nothing. And so if you take CBD and or chocolate and or drink tea, be careful. I mean...I think a good analogy a seriously a good analogy is it the P450 being metabolized by the P450. It may be good for base knowledge, but the truth is, is does it overwhelm that, as you put it system, if it is overwhelming that system, chocolate, for instance, for most intents and purposes would be like a single car driving down a six lane highway by itself. It's not really if the highway was a P450 and the car was the chocolate. It doesn't take anything to funnel that that car through.Correct.The problem is is whenever you happen to overwhelm that system. And that is important to know. But I would say in terms of context, kind of the way that we started this discussion in context. It's not my belief through what I've read and seen that CBD inherently overwhelms or becomes more than a single car down that six lane highway.So not only is it just one single car going down the highway, remember that not only foods but drugs, nobody's talking about drug drug interaction.Right.So there's a reason. So I see a lot of patients that one drug may be very effective one thing may be very effective, but there's so many variables like for instance, drugs, the sex of the person plays a role, you may have different levels, the age of the person and any diseases can all affect this whole system called the P 450 which produces enzymes. So not only that, but then genetics play a huge factor, alcohol intake.Alcohol intake, all of that. I mean, genetically, this may be why some drugs work on certain people and why they don't work and others fact there's a whole field of science right now where people are trying to determine the genetics ato go, Oh, you're going to need a higher level of whatever Plavix which is one that they've actually looked at. Or you can, you're going to take less. So we this is a whole field of this beautiful science where we can go Okay, genetically, you're going to be predisposed to need more medications. So when these enzymes get used up, basically if you've got this one chocolate, which is a car, one on six lane highway, and then you add fluconazole, which is an antifungal, that's an but that's not a car, that's a semi now and then you add alcohol, which is a minivan could be ccould be a couple minivansand then you do whatever something else, but you can see that the liver has to try and process this right. So what happens is it becomes this once it becomes a traffic jam. Then people start getting angry, they start honking their horn that is a rise in your what we call lfts liver function panels liver function test Yeah, so AST and ATL are the two ones that we always talk about, that's exactly what the FDA was referencing. So I want everybody hear this. When you overwhelm the liver with multiple cars using your analogy, then honking starts and the honking the warning sign is this rise in AST and ALT. So, for instance, your body can adapt to it. We've seen this all the time. If you drink alcohol on a regular basis. you build more lanes, you build more lanes, you get really good at metabolizing alcohol. Build tollways. I'll use myself as an example.Not with alcohol.With coffee, Okay.I always have to laugh. Whenever I go to the my own doctor. They say how much coffee do you take? I just write obscene amount because I've down regulated by receptors or I've had the ability to ramp up my my livers ability to convert that coffee into an inert thing and there it is. So you see it as an anesthesiologist or as a crna. I mean, describe what your experiences whenever you try and put somebody to sleep using propofols, different medications.Yeah, well, I mean, definitely, if someone says that they happen to be a large consumer of or a consumer of large amounts of alcohol, it generally takes anywhere between 20 and 30% more of an agent to put them to, to sleep safely, say, But back to your point of body habitus, for whatever reason, even just something as simple as someone being a redhead fair skinned, those people generally take more agent to make them go to sleep. Yeah, let's go ahead and clarify this. This is a well known thing in anesthesia. You're not being prejudiced? No, not at all. No, they literally just for whatever reason, the metabolism rate of someone who's fair skinned with red hair is typically higher than the average calculation and you can go through any types of weight based medications that we use to bring sedation to someone and generally fair skin redhead folks just take more. Is that interesting?Yeah, it is. So that is more than just anecdotal like they've actually done some studies on this and they've actually shown probably because whatever lineage, they come from Scotland, Ireland, they have a higher P450 to metabolize that particular or a higher subset of the P450 systems. So just keep that in mind. So when you take certain foods or drugs, everything's competing for your liver, to do to just say, hey, fix me, you know, figure out what's going on. Fortunately, it is a badass organ and the liver is tough and it can handle a lot, the largest solid organ that we have in the body. So usually it can handle everything. Now the most common example like we've talked about, if you take grapefruit juice with certain immunosuppressants and things then that particular combo because those drugs need exact or how they were manufactured need exact metabolism numbers. Not only that, did you know that like nutrition plays a big role. So, high protein diet will actually affect your P 450 and malnutrition will affect it. of course it will. So those are all of our paleo friends over at paleo FX and such those guys have revved up p 450s. Eating a lot of protein working out a whole lot, they're able to do this. Unfortunately, malnourished people probably can't tolerate as muchNo and they aren't they aren't they honestly they don't have the supply to rebuild the enzymes that are that are used within the P 450 I mean it's just malnutrition is going to deplete all different types of systems, not just the liver.So in the intro, I kind of mentioned that we're getting sicker. And so let's use nutrition as an example. federal policies tightened by the controlled substance act of 1970 essentially banned the production of industrial hemp during the war on drugs effectively we made hemp CBD illegal and put it under the umbrella of cannabis cultivation. Now what were we were talking with Will Clyden of O-hi energetics right, who actually discussed this and he said some cool stuff on this. He back before this when they were they were using hemp and hemp has been used for ever like since we landed in America, hemp has been using hemp has been used in China for thousands of years and all this other stuff that we were feeding because it's a fantastic crop. It's it detoxifies the soil. And it actually works. It grows quick. It's a great crop industrial. What were we thinking making it a banned substance, I don't know, separate discussion. But they've got data to show that when they were feeding chickens, so for everybody out there I had a patient today who said I said Oh, she was suffering from some things and I think CBD would help with and I mentioned Hey, have you ever considered CBD Oh, I would never ever, ever, ever do anything like that. I am not like that. I said, Okay, that's cool. said hey, let me tell you something. Do you know that before 1970 we were actually feeding animals like chickens and cattle. One of the primary things that we would feed them would be hemp, and it's been shown that you can take a chicken egg and it had over 250 milligrams of CBD, right so right now if you're somebody that just spent $200 on your CBD that has 300 milligrams in 1968 you could've just had an egg.A three cent egg.I know 3 cent egg. And I looked at the literature and I and I could not find anything that said death by egg otoxicity. It didn't so everybody that's sitting there thinking oh my gosh, no. I'm not going to do CBD. We were having CBD in our diet. A great Great example, to learn a lot more about this and do a deep dive. Our friend Chris kresser had Will Clyden and the CEO of O-hi, O-hi energetics on and he went into this tremendously. It was so cool. It was just like I just it's crazy that we stopped like, and I as a physician have seen that we are getting sicker as a country. So in 1970, we've got since 1970. We've got more chronic disease, we've got more dementia, we've got more autoimmune disease. coincidence, like we said in the intro, maybe it's at least a contributing factor. And now we have the FDA saying that CBD can be harmful yet it was in our food supply up until 1970.That's nuts, dude.It is nuts. And it doesn't make sense and if you look at mean hemp seed, birds eat seeds, birds consume seeds, they do all kinds of things where they can they take in product, What's the matter? No, I'm just looking at I'm trying to make sure we get through everything.Okay good, but I mean they eat everything and people have been consuming eggs from not just chickens they've been consuming eggs from all different birds on the planet for that long. The fact that we've restricted hemp growth etc has only taken away one of the natural things that birds were eating.If you're if you're really interested in this like I said go to Chris Cressors podcast where he's got Will Clyden on there is really cool wills smart dude Chris is super smart dude. So those guys those guys kick some crazy knowledge.Right?So that is it's weird that we're talking on this episode about CBD causing hepatotoxicity. And we've already shown that the liver's pretty badass, right? It can do a whole lot and we've already shown that the endocannabinoid system is necessary and since 1970, or up until 1970. We are taking in significant amounts of CBD in our dietRight.Weird.It is weird, but it's not so weird when we get down to why everyone's alarmed. So you want to get into a...Now let's go ahead and look at the studies. So that is sort of the phase one of this podcast because now we're going to start geeking out a lot. So I hope I didn't hope I didn't lose everybody with a but you kind of need that background to understand what we're going to talk about next.Sure, you definitely that background.Alright. So what they're talking about is the FDA published this revised consumer update. So this is the consumer update that they put out there for everybody detailing the safety concerns about CBD products. Now, this was based on the studies provided by GW Pharmaceuticals, GW Pharmaceuticals has done multiple different studies looking at different things to get their FDA approval. And I'm going to say right now, that kudos to GW for being the first company to step up and really try and make something for a group of people with intractable seizures have an alternative. Kudos to the FDA for doing their job and looking at the data that was presented to them. What I'm going to do is go next level and say, Well, you didn't look at everything. That's the bottom line here. So I'm not bashing anybody. Let's make let's make certain of this. Sure. So there have been several randomized, controlled and open label trials that studied the effects of epidolex, I'm going to call it epidolex from now on it's just easier, which is a 99% pure oral CBD extract on patients with refractory epilepsy. So this in turn led to the FDA approval for two diseases, dravet syndrome and Lennox-Gestaut syndrome. So if you recognize those names, bless you, because you're dealing with some serious stuff, It's a serious seizure issue. If you don't know those. Count your blessings. It's one of those times to go well, no matter where you're at in life. It's like well, thank goodness that I don't have to Deal with a child that has this because that's, that's a really big deal. These are intractable seizures. So they looked at the data on that. And in these studies, the kicker here is I'm going to say it again, getting back to the lane highway, the patients maintained on their stable drug regimen with a median of three anticonvulsant drugs. That's important. It's super important. Three anticonvulsant drugs. So when we use the analogy of the car on the road, imagine a six lane road. And three of those roads. Three of those lanes are double semis.Yeah, that are closed construction... Or closed, Yeah, that's more likely or closed. So let's talk about that. So when we're talking about three different agents used to control seizures, some of those agents would be and I'm assuming here, but probably Depakote, probably Dilantin, also known as phenytoin, or fosphenytoin, which is seravex. There's a handful of anti seizure medications and through my knowledge, all of them, all of them have been recorded as raising the enzyme levels used by the liver which of course would lead to ALT and AST elevation, showing that the liver is essentially working overtime to long term process these drugs right or wrong?Correct. Correct, which is exactly what the FDA is supposed to do. They're supposed to look at this data and go Okay, so let's just look at the study that they're talking about. So the FDA accumulated this data, and they looked at what GW presented GW presented in isolette of CBD, not a full spectrum. And the dose they ramped up to 20 mg's per kick 20 mg's per kick. What that means is a guy like me would take 1954 milligrams a day.That's a lot more...of CBD isolate. Now I see the effects, beneficial effects of taking KBMD health CBD 15 milligrams twice a day,that's 30 milligrams,that's 30 milligrams.The exact dose of what makes people feel better is very argued because all the data coming out of Israel shows that a lot higher doses, but I'm seeing effects at these doses So let's be real quick let's stop for context. So right now at this intersection what we're what you're saying is with a full spectrum and we said this at the beginning of the podcast that what GW Pharmaceuticals has with epidiolex is a CBD isolate and what they've done...You're saying epidiolex now that's funny. Yeah, whatever it is, Well, because I started with that. Then you told me no, that's not how you say it.I think we should switch it up the whole time. EPA max the way it was edimax. What they did is they were able to establish that almost 2000 milligrams for you would be the ideal dosage however, you...isn't that correct? That's the dosage that they went for or the dosage that they felt was safe, Safe. Okay, I'm sorry. So but but on the upper end of... That was what they were aiming for on everybody. In essence, though, from where you have had beneficial effects, you're talking 60 times that amount, two months worth, is what they are saying the safe level would be in one day where you're finding the beneficial spectrum. So just just in terms of context, full spectrum, CBD, one 60th of the dose that they're saying it's a it's a safe level is really all that you need from our experience.Yeah. Now in GW's defense, let's look at the data. So in dravet syndrome, seizures dropped 39% and in Lennox-Gestaut 42%. So... that's good. So they probably did their homework and said, well, we need to get up that high to actually help that so I don't know anything about that. I'm not a neurologist. That's where it's at. But I'm just saying that when we look at that dose, no average consumer is going to be able to consume that Much CBD in a single day, unless it comes through this 2 full grams a day is more than most take Yes,yeah. Now here's the problem 94% of the people had side effects. Okay 94% at the highest dose compared to 75% placebo, kind of weird. So there's just a huge placebo side effect profile that doesn't get discussed at all.Did they say what it just had a curiosity do they state with the placebo was for the control,They did not stay with the placebo was oh, I take that back. I don't know what they use, but basically they left people on the same medications. So, essentially, let's just look at this and say okay, but the good news is, most of it was not a big deal. Most of it was what the FDA also discussed beyond the liver tests and beyond the drug metabolism. They also said Oh, CBD can cause nausea. It can cause drowsiness. It can cause all these other kind of nuisance things. That's what they're referring to right here. It's interesting though, that have a side effect profile assigned to a placebo that's that exceeds around the 30% range, because that's generally the throwaway number. Yeah. So we've gone twice away from the throwaway number. And they've had they've had reported side effects, which I'm not trying to over draw conclusions here, but it could at least indicate that side effect profiles assigned to CBD in this study probably weren't solely to CBD, Well, you're dealing with one of the highest risk populations you can get your hands on, when I did clinical research and when we would do a moderate to severe Chron's study. The placebo arm would have tons of side effects because the disease is bad. That's what's going on here also. So most was not a big deal, upper respiratory tract infection, somnolence, decreased appetite, diarrhea, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the one that they focused on is the increase in amino transferase concentrations. This once again was a revised consumer update, they put this out to the public and their statement is increase in liver amino transferase concentrations when I just got done explaining what the liver does. Did I ever say amino transferase concentrations? No. I said liver enzymes. right? frickin talk to the public if you're going to release a consumer paper. yeah, liver enzymes. AST ALT. This is hiding behind scientific garbaly goop. It's like you're doing half science half anyway. But but whatever. So a patient show up and they're like, I need you to check my amino transferase concentrations. I'm like, Whoa, why? They Hand me this, this, this news article. Right? This is what we're trying to address right here. So what they found is that in the higher dose, 20 mgs per kg, there was a rise in some patients in three times the level which is significant, so if your normal is 20. You can be 60 if your normal is 40 it can be 120. When patients come into me and it's three times the level it sounds alarming. Do you know what happens when somebody gets hepatitis A acute infection? It's way more than that thousands of times the level when somebody goes into foaming at failure there AST and ALT will go from 40 to 10,000.AST and ALT have risen for almost everyone who's listened here, way more than three times throughout their lifetime multiple times in acute or in very isolated settings. It happens with illness.So getting back to your highway analogy, which I think is really cool analogy. I'm glad you came up with that. Thank you .Getting back to the highway analogy. 80% of them were taking a drug called valproic it matters Depakote Yeah, that matters. That matters a lot.It's when you take these medications, which is why at the beginning of the show, I said you're more likely don't have to worry about it. But if you're on certain medications, keep it in mind. Now that being said at the lower dose didn't see this stuff. So there is a dose dependent usage of the P450 enzyme you can if I give you one drink, or if I give you a bottle of tequila 512 which in my opinion is really one of the tastiest, most fantastic tequilas you can ever get your hands on. It is delicious. It's delicious. I'm gonna I'm gonna digress right here. Oh my God, Tequila 512... Also sponsored by Tequila 512Tt was really good seriously, ummm in every single person with liver test rose.They went back to normal if they decreased the anticonvulsant or decreased the CBD. So either one it went back to normal. So it wasn't number one, it wasn't permanent liver damage. More than likely correct they were able to  return back to normal. And number two, it was simply A case of an overwhelmed P450 pathway more more than likely.So you want to get really confusing? Not really but we might as well try. I don't want to but here's what's really interesting, then they kind of get a little geeky. So GW presented their their stuff and then they showed that the P450 in this enzymes and they went into will, the CYP to, 2c19 CYP three a four can inhibit the CYP blah, blah, blah. Those are all just cytochromes people. Those are all just cytochromes It's under the umbrella of P 450. That's how complex this is. Yeah,It is nuts how complex. The highest plasma concentration to CBD occurs within two to three hours after exposure to the Epidolex. With medication, so timing of these medications going to play a role, which actually got me down a weird rabbit hole where i started thinking. We haven't done this much analysis on what happens if you take your Ace inhibiter and you take your cholesterol medicine, timing wise PK analysis on different people and everything. Because when they do these pharmacokinetics, they do it to get the FDA approval, they do it on people that are healthy, that they can understand it. Let's put this into context again, if you're listening to this you've ever taken tagamet. Have you ever thought about when you take your tagamet, you probably only take it whenever you're afraid that you're going to have acid problems, right? Cimetidine?Yeah, guess what? It's also known as a high level p 450 inhibitor if it's over consumed. So I guess what I'm saying here is, there's probably way more alarms being driven over something that yes, is handled by the P 450 system, but is far less invasive or it's much it's a much smaller vehicle on this highway than some of the other things that the alarms are not sounding over.And then surprise surprise after I just got done talking about the liver and the genetic variability and all these other things. When they looked at the pharmacokinetics there was tremendous variation. Hmm. Weird. Yeah. Odd, right? So and anybody that's listening to this that is a, a pharmacist or is a scientist or like Well, yeah, duh. Like I know, duh. But why put out such an alarming statement? Yeah. Without context.Yeah, yeah, you're right. So it for Okay, so it's a little bit of clickbait stuff, right. And so maybe even the journalist who wrote it doesn't understand specifically, the implication, they may have only seen P450, written somewhere turned to a health care provider and said, What is this? Well, that's indicating that things are rising up, they freak out. They write a headline that says CBD causes liver failure. I just learned that from this health care provider. So I'm going to write this piece.Well, that we're going to get into that. The liver failure. This is still just the FDA. Oh, yeah. To the consumer. So I hope that the FDA looks at this and says, You know what? That's right. All that stuff that was just being said it's right. But we didn't have the time to do it. We couldn't sit there put that on paper, we'd lose everybody. I get it. It's quite true. We all we all but we all have a responsibility, much like any doctor to try and explain. You and I have this ability to have this forum to reach hundreds of trillions of people.Yeah. It eflects in our subscriptions on YouTube. They so many trillions of people subscribed, they started his back over to about 200. Yeah, so every time we got trillions, they start back over. Yeah. So So anyways, so what what you're realizing here is exactly what we're talking about. When you put stress on the liver. The liver honks its horn and does a little rise and the lfts goes, Well, hey, guys, maybe not so much. Can we just back off the traffic a little bit and see what's happening here. So additional studies have shown that levels of the anticonvulsant drugs actually caused the daily effects. So now we start wondering that the that the CBD may actually rise some of the anticonvulsants and then you have more side effects from that comes down to the same thing we're talking about how many things do you want to tax your liver, that's the bottom line. To summarize high dose of a pure CBD isolate, not full spectrum, while using a mean of three other anticonvulsants can cause temporary rise in liver tests and affect the metabolism slightly of the anticonvulsant. Of note, it did not happen at lower doses. So one more time, if you are on an anticonvulsant discuss with your doctor and make sure that you stay well below the 2000 milligrams a day. Yep. So this whole thing of Oh We're going to block the P 450 the P450 is So frickin complex, it is nuts. So anything you want to add to that, because I'm going to move on to the thing that I really want to, like kind of make fun of No, not really, I just want to say that I think that the FDA, unfortunately, is a very important and serious organization within our government. And I think that for all of the flack that they take their, unfortunately, with any other entity, there are limitations on what it is that they can do. And I do believe that they try their best to fairly ascertain and address situations as they are presented to them. Regardless of how frustrated that one of this may get is we don't get a result from them. A lot of it is just simply because there's not enough manpower. Oh, absolutely. They get thrown everything think about, think if you're in an organization where you know that 70% of the crap that's out there needs to be pulled off the shelves and you're limited. It's a government organization. These people making these statements are MD's. I'm really limited fortunately, I have well, we have the show where I kind of enjoy looking up some of this stuff. Fortunately, we have some friends of ours that are that work in the nutrition industry that are fantastic at researching articles. And some of that gets gets brought to me I want to make sure that we all get better this is the whole purpose of this.Hundred percent.I want to help the FDA and help GW I want to help the CBD industry. I want to help all of it. But let's just talk about this because something super weird happened. And this is the one that got the most press A Forbes article came out that promoted a mouse study and made the sensational claim that CBD causes liver failure.Yeah, that's kind of what I was referencing earlier. I may steal the thunder but yeah, you're right.Yeah, so this is you're exactly right. In the intro, you said it was clickbait. I really after looking at this study after pulling the study, because how many people read that article are actually going to pull the study.Well is the is the person who wrote this study that well versed in reading studies like that. I mean, that's that's an important thing. I mean, they I think that probably even the author of the article feels like that they are doing a service to the reader, but probably doesn't understand. And if they do, then shame on them, but if they don't, I think that would be a better explanation doesn't fully understand how to read the study and the quality and the qualifications of that study to make a statement like that.Yeah. And you know, this, this could be an arguable point, I'm sure that the person that that wrote this feels very strongly that what they said was right, the bottom line is the goal of this study was to investigate CBD cannabidiol hepatic toxicity, meaning liver issues in an eight week old male mouse. So they they took a group of eight week old male mice, and then they gave them a CBD that they produced. The CBD that they produced and Will Clyden will just jump up and down when he hears this because he decided Is this on Chris Cresser's podcast. The CBD that they produced was used to extract using hexane, which is a molecule that is known to be hepatotoxic. Yeah, you're not supposed to have heaxane. Don't do that! Will Clyden talked about the fact that if you find a CBD with an outrageously high amount of of CB, if you find a full spectrum CBD with an outrageously high amount of CBD more so and the price ranges, okay? Because what they did is they extracted that with hexane in a cheap way and threw it in their bottle and said, there you go. Now you can check that's got 10,000 milligrams of CBD or whatever. And it's really interesting because there's so much going on in the industry like this. So this particular study out of the University of Arkansas, took the CBD, or they made their own CBD using hexane which is a hepatotoxic in itself and in their certificate of analysis. It was there and then they gave it to these mice. Second thing neatI don't even know there has to be a second but we can hear it. Because I mean seriously, that's, that's like saying, I know your stomach hurts. You should take this Pepto bismol. And then I don't tell you that I've broken up some glass shards and have you drink it and you're like i'm bleeding now! What's going on? I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, but you only paid half the price.I made it myself.Which, by the way, that last batch of propophol that you did in your bathtub is working phenomenally. I'm sure it is. Now we do not make propophol in our bathtubs.Alright, so the second issue. If we have any mice that are subscribers to our show, or listening, I would like you to have your children removed from the room at this moment. Because they took these poor mice, and they gavaged to them. Would you mind defining what gavaged is? I think it's when you kind of force feed somebody I don't think it's willing. That's your I think gavaged something you kind of threw one at me there I think to gavaged someone you basically introduce a funnel to the esophagus and well you kind of get after it, don't you? Yes, I'm currently gavaging my mic right now trying to figure it out. I just undid everything. You're gavaging our ears with your, your microphone adjustments?All right, so gavage is they forcibly give these mice?The CBD extract? Yeah, I don't think it's comfortable nor pleasant.No typically through a tube feeding or down the throat to the stomach is how they generally gavage things. A quick side note, now because I'm now all of a sudden I feel like I'm living in a glass house when I was an undergraduate student. I actually did my first surgery on a rat and we took out their adrenal glands. And I'm just saying that so I don't want to sit there and pretend like I'm not done mean things to an animal. But that was when I knew immediately I could not be a bench researcher. I did not like that. At all, now I was like, I need to, I want to heal. I want to heal. I don't want to hurt these animals, but it's it's a whole separate discussion. So anyways, so they gavage these animals with different doses, and it's really interesting. Now in what they call their defense, they call it allometric dosing, which means they're trying to get the body weight to human weight ratio appropriate. I've read some rebuttals of this article where it is a joke, you just can't do that. And when I read vitamin weed Michelle Ross? Michelle Ross, when I read vitamin weed she dis... she specifically discusses why research on CBD versus mice is very difficult to do because the weight basing the endocannabinoid system is different, all these other things. So allometric dosing being said, assuming that they're saying it's right, so the dose would be the equivalent of what they gave and What a human would give So I'm doing the allometric dosing, which I think is actually higher than what it actually is separate thing. They took mice and they gavaged them with zero milligrams of hexane derived CBD 246 milligrams per kilogram 738 milligrams per kilogram or 2460 milligrams per kilogram of dirty CBD. It doesn't make sense dirty CBD isolate. So for instance, in a horrible alternate universe where humans are now the test subjects and we have large mice which are running tests on us, and they decided to gavage me with the same thing. That would be the equivalent at the highest dose of 241,080 milligrams of hexane derived CBD isolate. I'm not even sure what the hexane would do it 240,000 milligrams 242,000 milligrams.No I mean that being the more or less than now at this point, it's just an additive. It's just I mean it's it's not an excipient It's a straight up additive. That would not make sense at all. Oh, it's crazy.It's poison.This article came out in Forbes and said CBD causes hepatotoxicity. Also hexane causes hepatotoxicity.It is nuts. Alright, spoiler alert. The mice suffered hepatic toxicity and death at the highest dose. Shocking... You know what? I also hear it's bad to have breakfast cereal with not milk but drain-o. Just something that I'm gonna go out on a whim. Don't think you're supposed to do that. It just doesn't make sense. It's It's It's not. That is not an apples to apples comparison if you're talking Okay, so we talked about it earlier. reputable CBD source there is no reputable CBD producer that's going to have and Will special shout out to you it's going to have hexane as a byproduct or an excipient in their full spectrum COA approved which is also why KBMD Health with powered by olyxenol hundred percent is does not have that. I mean they do co2 extraction, which is the important thing which is a reason why we partnered with them to make that product. So we are the one out of the 23 or 24 that is the safe and trusted COA back no hexane etc etc. Doing this study is not an apples to apples comparison on what would happen because who knows? Who Okay, I don't get it because GW we already did that study. They determined that 20 Meg's per kg which is still a shit ton. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeahis the safe maximum dose. These guys went times it by 100.Yeah, they did.And see what happens? Yeah, it's it's a bad it's a bad comparison. I mean, yeah, honestly, if you wanted to find out if CBD plus hexane causes liver toxicity at a ridiculous amount, top to bottom, then that's a great study outside of that, since nobody does it, I would say it's a bad study. Speaking of road, that's a road to nowhere.Yeah. And so study like this, uh, like you had mentioned is essentially it's not science. It's clickbait. Yeah. And right now that that author, that journalist is just kind of laughing. He's like, I know, and now you're bringing it up, and I'm going to get another whatever, because that's what people are trying to do. They're trying to get attention at this point.So at that point, good for you, you got to click but I would be truly interested if possibly that particular journalists would say, you know what, I didn't fully understand it. I mean, that's okay. Let's look reading studies, right? There's there's a study to reading studies. I mean, we heard that we heard the breakdown that kresser did on Joe Rogan is he Twice had to address his approach to completely different topic about the the plant based diet and then how he had to re approach that with the rebuttal. All that just simply to say, there is a science to reading studies and being really good at understanding what is and is not applicable and then how to find studies that you can compare to each other for good meta analyses. So what we're doing right now is I'm telling you that maybe sometimes there aren't studies, but my anecdotal evidence, I have a busy practice, you hear the patients, we hear them talk I listen to them, when they say that doesn't work. I go, Okay, I'm not publishing it. I don't have time to do that. I wish I did. If I published everything that we're gathering data on, if we're looking at, you know, just so many different things, CBD is just one of them. We've got I love I'm a huge fan of brain.FM for the ability to use sound to change your mood. I Would love to they're unpublished, a lot of studies on stuff like that. There's, there's tons of stuff. So when people go, oh, the studies aren't out there, there is something to be said about the Socratic method, or I'm sorry, the paternalistic method, the way that medicine used to be where the guy in front of you that saw thousands of patients, this is the method that he has. You see me scope, I mean, there's a difference in scope techniques.So they, although some may even still say it qualifies as anecdotal, I will say that there's objective data in both in a scope, somebody can't just come, anybody can come to you say I feel better. Anybody can even if they don't mean it. But they can't make the disease disappear from the imaging that we see in their colonoscopy, or the the mucosal samples that you take. And that's something that's completely objective data. That we see. So those are the everyday results that we see from these types of applications where you just, look it's not made up whenever we okay full pleasure when we first started looking at CBD, I thought was bullshit. Who you looking at?Just anybody who's out there. But when we first started talking about it, I didn't believe it. I was like, man, let's see, because we've been down this road before but we tried new, new without throwing a bunch of things under the bus. We tried new or innovative different things and high hopes. And unfortunately, low expectations and the expectations get met and the hopes are never never realized. The opposite for me personally occurred with CBD over the last three and a half years. And that is it actually stinking works.Dude, I knew that we were onto something with Atrantil, because after we did the initial studies,  everybody came back and said, I want more. I knew that I was onto something or I was not on something. I knew that CBD had a viable place in my practice, because I bought and the story goes all the way back which is why we work with which is why it's powered by elyxenol right now, when we went to paleo FX, and I ordered a couple cases and I just gave them away to patients. That was not cheap. Not because I was sitting there trying to be altruistic, not because I was doing charity. I'm like, I don't know. I didn't. And I told everybody, I don't have a clue. I haven't even looked at this yet. All I know is try this. Tell me what happens. And when about 80% of them came back said I want more. And I went, Okay, we're onto something. And that's when I took my clothes off the deep dive into the science and went, holy cow. Yeah,this is crazyUp until that point, I just didn't know there was a whole lot to it. I mean, it really didn't. And then the fact is, oh, and to clarify, it's not like Brown just handed out CBD to just anybody who came to the clinic. You literally just like we did with Atrantil you found very diseased patients to say and who had gone through a gamut of different pharmaceuticals and weren't finding relief, and suddenly they're like, this is working for me. Tell me more about it. And I was, I was blown away.So let's talk a little bit. So we're I'm over here going well studies I haven't published and everything. Let's talk about a few studies. So I've got a Mendeley account, I know how to look at PubMed. I know how to get a Google Scholar, I just want to talk about a couple studies have come out recently. And let's kind of compare it and see if it still makes people concerned that they're going to die of liver failure.Sure. Alright. So in the Journal of Clinical Pharmacology published in 2019, the this was actually a study, also sponsored by GW Pharmaceuticals, as part of the process of getting the FDA approval that the FDA did not reference the best I can tell they did not reference this. This is way more complex and it gets super cool, because what they're looking at is the pharmacokinetics or how CBD is actually metabolized by that beautiful genius called a liver. In high doses in people with liver disease. Yeah, they went through the trouble to take high doses of CBD and give it to people People that did not have liver disease had mild liver disease moderate and severe. This was ballsy to say the least, because using a product like this in somebody with liver disease is is risky. This thing could backfire and it could shut down the whole process. Here's what's nuts, the pharmacologic and safety of a single oral dose of 200 milligrams of epidolex, which is the CBD isolate. They were assessed in subjects they had eight people with moderate or with mild disease, six people with moderate and eight people with severe and then they had this collection of normal people. Blood samples were collected to check for the pharmacokinetics This is how drugs are looked at. They give you a drug and then they check your levels. Basically, the blood concentration was higher in the hepatic impairment and they describe it in nanograms. So the nanogram comparison is that it's a little bit higher in those with severe hepatic impairment. But this is what's nuts there was no increase in adverse reactions. There was no change in blood levels. So basically, the only adverse reaction that they found was a little bit of diarrhea. And it all happened in the mild hepatic impairment. So the FDA had mentioned Oh, studies have shown that it causes diarrhea. What was really funny about

Welcome to the new location of the gut check project. I'm your host, Eric Rieger along with your other host, Dr. Kenneth Brown. How you doing Ken what's going on?So well, we've moved from the Spoony studio and we are attempting our first own podcast over here at the new studio at the KBMD Health studio. We are and guesswhat, you know we are still on the Spoony network, but I can't express how nice it is for you to now have a studio that's closer to the clinic. It's closer to where we do the procedures. It's the same distance for me no matter what.And most importantly, it's closer for our guests like Jeremy who just flew in from Austin. All the way from Austin because we got so much closer. Yeah, thank you guys. Much closer. Awesome. So our firstguest here in the new studio is going to be Jeremy Kinder here with CBD Takeout and I'm going to let Jeremy kind of take it away a little bit about what is special about CBD Takeout here in just a moment. Dr. Brown real quick, do we have any catch up items that we needed to do to kind of put in front of Jeremy to see if he wants to weigh in on anything?Well, we got like several visual on so first of all, we want to hear the story about how you and Jeremy met Sure. We want to talk about how much synergy there is. Whenever you start meeting people and you start connecting with people. We came back from the baby bath water event and just met incredible people. We had Tim powers over here who we're going to have back on because we actually had the equipment. We were unpacking the equipment when our first real guest showed up and he was kind of helping us just show how to...like we were like wiring this stuff together. Check thisout. Before Tim came over here, he was over at a hotel and then put his iPhone down to simply turn around and pay a guy at the bar. No, no, no, he was going to turn around and refill his ice tea. Oh fill his iced tea.Like five feet away at like a Homewood suites are just like some. Yeah, you know, like normal family.A little hotel. Did somebody grab his phone?  Withinlike three seconds, three seconds took off. So he was in town. And so me my wife, my daughter, my son was out of town, me, my wife and my daughter, we're going to take him out to dinner. And I pick him up. And this is what we have to do is figure out so now we're, I'm learning how to move the camera. So now we're back on me. Yeah, nice. Sweet. So we're working on that. And I picked him up in like a boss. I mean, like a boss. He was like, Hey, man, what's up? I'm like, why did I have to face you know Facebook you?  Yeah, funny thing and he stops in the car, funny thing my phone just got stolen I'm like when? He's like, I don't know eight minutes ago. I'm like, you are a boss. I stopped the car. I'm like do we go to BestBuy? Do we get you a flip phone? What do we do here? This is crazy. So was he calling youfrom like an iPador something? He sent me and I'm not a Facebooker and so he sent me a message said hey, phones, phones not working. It was cool about it phones not working. message me through this and I'll I'll do it through my iPad. When I picked him up, I mean, he was just like, I would have been curled up in a corner, crying, whatever. And he's like, yeah, let's just go to dinner. It's all good.Let's go get a drink.Let's just I mean, he was just cool and super, super neat about it. And then that evolved into a realization for himself and go ahead and expand on that. The coolest thing was is he found how addicted he was to his smartphone.Yeah, he said he began to sleep better, he communicated better with people that are in front of him. His anxiety level, he said, the first day was palpable, where he didn't feel captivated by the phone constantly vibrating for something for him new to look at.So, man, I don't know how much y'all want me to talk because I bet I'm a talker I'll throw in stuff on everything. But my wife and I have been talking about how do we decouple from our devices and I've tried everything if you're getting a second device or getting an Apple Watch and you know, all kinds of different stuff and honestly, the thing that that's helping me the most is just discipline you know, but I'm not going to you know get on my device and it's freaking hard I mean it's really like a you know like a drug fix of it My mind is telling me Hey, I need to check my phone go through the cycle of okay check Instagram, check the email check, you know. And then 15 minutes later I've been on my phone the whole time and I I literally don't need to be on there. But that's probably about a year ago we started talking about how how we can improve our lives and have better sleep quality and a lot of that stuff and decoupling from electronics was a big part of thatI don't remember was that Aaron File at baby bathwater who made the statement that there's a boxthere's a box..No it was Jack Olocka. Oh Jack Olocka. So it was Jack Olocka . So Jack Olocka...I'm  a little bit echoed here. Is that you know what, whatever we're just we're just gonna run the first one is studio thinking first one new studio figured out. So Jack Olocka . So Jack, so this group that we're with is like, it's like, you know, like when you like meet a bunch of people and you just go oh my gosh, I'm I'm like around a bunch of like minded people yeah well Jack Olocka is a PhD in psychedelics, all his research has been in this and like not like, Oh, I'm really good at psychedelics like he actually has a doctorate on the neuro plasticity and what happens I mean, just brilliant guy. And he gave a little speech there's this thing called a Baby Einstein, we're just going let it echo doesn't matter now. Where the Baby Einstein where everybody kind of gives either an ask or a give. And you know, his give was there's something called a kitchen safe. And what you do is you put your phone in the safe in the kitchen. Yeah. And when you set the timer, you nothing can get that phone out until the timer stops. Like there's like like even if somebody breaks it, it's just pretty much like yeah, you better have a landline going Yeah, yes. You know. And so unless you have dynamite and a crowbar and the reason is is because people are so addicted to their phones and we know that the blue light affects sleep. If you look at the how important sleep is and how affected it is just getting in just shutting your phone off and not looking at it is probably the most important thing that you can do.Yeah, yeah. My problem though, is you know, I come from the technology world and my house is wired like I have sono speakers everywhere and I have lights that are on smart plugs and all that stuff. And I did all this before I knew the the harmful effects of emf and so now I kinda thinking. So if I put my phone in a safe like I can't turn my lights on or I can't listen to music. Or turn the air conditioner down. I'm hosed. Just honey. I can't flush the toilet. Right. My phone's in the safe.Yeah, yeah. So you know we're talking about how to it maybe shut all that down and all that butyeah. That's funny. So let's talk a little bit about CBD take out that's why you You came up here today we're going to explore opportunities that are synergistic between the two of us. I was going to kick it off by saying one of the things that allowed you and I to get on this wavelength to start talking. So I went down to Austin to join a friend of mine. Marie and I are really good friends with the Leath's. Rennon Leath is basically the founder of a podcast called Lazy Sundayz Lazy Sunday, Lazy Sundayz and that's with a Z. So lazy Sunday's podcast. It's really kind of cool. It's four people who got together and have anxiety issues. So they forced themselves to start a podcast to confront their anxiety and now they just recorded their 50th Show and The 51st comes out this weekend. Yeah, so They wanted me to come down and help him see it. They held it at the Tequila 512 headquarters. Thanks to Scott Willis. Oh, can you do me a small favorover there and hold up that bottle. oh yeah that's the old vintage bottle.  this is so now I'm going to change the camera here so this is the vintage bottle. This is the original bottle of tequila 512 that when a they were in a tasting contest according to your buddy there that he said that they call this a shit-tastic label. They did. Shit-tastic.Once they replaced it with the new and they said yeah old label kind of cool pretty shit-tastic . Yeah,the tequilas phenomenal . The label is bad. So can you guys hear that?Yeah.I don't know. Maybe it? Is it? Is it too loud on me? It's been first podcast.It might just be the headphones popping?I don't know. It's probably something that we did with the microphone.Ron. So run. Shout out to Ron and Paul, everybody else that helps us out with this that they're going to be dying laughs I'm going to try and puttogether Episode 21 good content from Jeremy bad audio from me.So, anyway, we go down to do the podcast we did it at Tequila 512 casita there in Austin and man great turnout. Yeah, they had what...60 people? I was running down to the liquor store trying to buy more liquor. Yeah, everybody was having a great time. Theymaxed out the what 512 made available to them. Yeah. And then we had to shut the party down at nine. That was the rules of that particular neighborhood. So, great podcast, great turnout. And then Jeremy, I'd heard Jeremy's ads on the podcast previously, I've listened to my friends podcast before and I was really intrigued because your first and second interview specifically talked about what y'all do at CBD takeout is essentially you're going to find CBD on CBD takeouts website. It's been vetted. You've made certain that the certificates of authenticity are real, and that the measurements of everything that's in there, it's real CBD per the label that's given to you now. It was at baby bathwater that we learned that just on the retail side 26 to 28 offerings of CBD to 1 are fraudulent for every good one was 26 to 28, which are not so thankfully for someone like Jeremy and CBD take out. This is a bastion of where you know, everything that you're going to find on there is vetted. And I think that hopefully over time, you'll find the KBMD will be  a part of their repertoire.I think that would be awesome. And so I mean, Jeremy just get everybody up to speed you come from a long lineage of CBD growers. You're the seventh generation of a hemp grower you have extensive experience with CBD, your great great great great grandfather was the first original CBD producer. And now you decided to go digital but am I a little off on that?No that's spot on? I guess you read my bio. Yeah, like that couldn't be further from the truth.No. So my, my career's been is in technology, so I've worked for a lot of software companies and sold, you know, really high end platforms to major corporations and may have had a great time doing it, But I wanted to do I wanted to do something different that I was passionate about. And so at the same time that I was building technology companies and doing all that I just have always had a passion for health and fitness. And I think that that goes back to being a collegiate collegiate athlete. So I was a cheerleader at the University of Kentucky. Oh, yeah. went there on a full ride. That's fantastic. died doing that. Yeah. My wife's also a cheerleader. She was a cheerleader at the University of Texas. So, you know, we grew up as gymnast and so athleticism is in my background. But then about, I don't know, age 21-22 I started and that's really kind of when things peaked I started having gut issues. And back then I didn't mean that was, what 25 years ago, something like that i there wasn't research that was readily available, you couldn't go to the, to the grocery store and find gluten free products, none of that it was really really difficult. You know, I went to doctors and had lots of blood work done and they always came back with your you're healthy, you know, but I didn't feel something just didn't feel right. And so that kind of started me off on this whole exploration of, of diet and trying to find balance in my body. And you know, I've been tweaking that for 25 years and that that's what really led us to starting CBD takeout and and getting into this industry.Were you ever normal or more did you actually feel that there was an event that took place that changed everything?Yeah. So when I said that, you know, around 21 22 is kind of when all of that peaked when I started peeling that onion and going back, so I had spinal meningitis when I was six months old. So massive amounts of antibiotics, you know, had IV's in my head, all that good stuff. And, you know, at that point, nobody really knew about balancing flora, and that, that antibiotics could basically just kill all the good bacteria in your gut. And so I think from, you know, six months old that I was at a disadvantage. And then by the time maybe 15 or so, you know, just like, you know, normal teenager started having acne, and I got on tetracycline, so I took an antibiotic every single day for, you know, maybe two years. And I remember around that 15-16 I remember my body changing not in the teenage way. Just I remember Remember things with, you know, with going to the bathroom and stuff like that, that there were changes, but I didn't know. I didn't know why. So I started having a lot of athlete's foot and a lot of rashes and stuff like that. But so it was there an event? Yeah, I think there was probably a lot of events along the way that then you couple that with a college life style of shoot we were we were sponsored by Papa John's, at the University of Kentucky. I mean, we could call up and get a large pepperoni pie for like four bucks. We were We were rocking that every other day.I have this image of Jeremy and his buddy catching that one cheerleader that they throw up in the air and she keeps getting heavier as the season goes on. It's like yeah, we gotta find a new sponsor.Yeah, yeah. What thank God we had ephedrine back then.That's great. So Jeremy, when when you realize that there was an opportunity there to basically take...Well, no, actually you went to this where you are starting to realize some changes. So what progressed? And how did it take to take you to where you are now?So back that up to the question? So how did my dietary issues affect? So yeah, I think that that that just spawned a passion within me and starting to research that there were ways to put my body in a position that it could heal itself versus looking to a quick fix of let me take a pill let me you know, kind of that that approach tothis was during college when you were starting to think about this, or when did you start to do this? Yeah, yeah, that's, that's about right. It's really interesting, because everybody that we've met, that we've met in this field, when they start doing that they really get drawn to medicine. Yeah, and you didn't. Well, I, I mean, career wise.Oh, gotcha. Yeah. So I think What I really contemplated back then getting into more of dietetics and and going about it from the diet route, but man I am not a scientist by nature I think and and even at that stage that the issues that I was having, that you have concentration issues so, so to follow a, you know, a profession and medicine, It just wasn't in the cards for me So, and plus I like to talk so it kind of led me into more of the sales avenue of business.You know, Eric puts people to sleep for a living and he talks the whole time so you can still do medicine. yeah, you can do it, but they don't ever respond to anything I say. So yeah, pretty much.Yeah. He has full on conversations with all my patients and they wake up happy like subconsciously they love communicating with Eric.Yeah, it's always a good dream. Yeah.So obviously then you still pursued, your career, you said that you got into software sales correct? And but you didn't lose the passion for trying to find something that was going to allow you to heal. And I like that you say it that way, find something to heal and not a quick fix. Oftentimes the companies that cater to the medicine world now, it's pharmaceutical, and it's always a quick fix. It's a patch. You know, I didn't know that growing up. I always felt like well, you may be dependent upon medicine that's just the answer. And what I've learned is that's oftentimes absolutely incorrect. You can learn to heal from the inside and get so much better. So what turned you to that for your own personal health?So the point around pharmaceutical companies and that methodology if you look at foundationally how how they are built, they're not financially, they're not, they're not compensated to heal you, to fix you, they are compensated to get you on a regimen, that you come back and be a repeat customer. If anybody knows about publicly traded companies, the the end goal is to increase the stock price. So pharmaceutical companies, they they don't have and this isn't a political statement, this isn't a perspective of whether they're bad or good. It's simply foundationally they have to satisfy that stock price and if they get people off of their drugs, then that stock price does not go up, it goes down, right? So, from from that perspective, they they are not going to be in the business of healing people.clear my throat there. It's alright. Sofrom the perspective of,of healing yourself, I come from the perspective that of that we're creative beings and then We, God created us in a way that we should function properly. But what stands between us and that is desires. So does the food tastes this way? Do you want? Are you chasing the way that that tastes? Or do you not want to exercise because you're too tired? So there's the I think that there are things that stand between us living an optimal life, that it comes down to choice. So I begin to peel that onion for myself in my own life of what was standing between me and optimal health. And over time, you know, I have experimented with different supplementation or different diets and so on and so forth.So that my perspective. I want to expand a little bit about what you just said, because that's never really been addressed before, which is that our health is related to our desires. Now we know that fast food industry we know that processed food industry, they hire, I have patients who are chemical engineers, their sole job, and they've told me this is to figure out how to make the food more palatable, more satiable, more like everything about it that you want more. How do you put a coating on a freedom? So it goes down easier. Yeah. So we have the pharmaceutical industry over here trying to combat high cholesterol, obesity, coronary vascular disease. We've got the food industry over here trying to figure out how to how do I get you to eat more Doritos? How do I get you to eat more Fritos? And I love how you said that because what you basically said is something I've never thought about. We battle our desires, but our desires are influenced by both the media scientist there's some really smart people trying to get us to take certain things.Certainlylet's go back to the beginning of this conversation was about technology. So I was in the technology business, and the exact same thing that you're talking about of how they create foods so that they're more palatable, they look better, whatever they do the same thing with, with technology. So your, your phone is created in a way that they call it gamification. How, how do they attract you? And it's really like a drug, how did they attract you in a way to keep you using the device? And once again, I'm not saying something bad about the company companies are here to be to be profitable and build a company. It's up to us to choose if if we're going to engage that or not. So it goes back to your desire. Are you do you have fomo right? So do you have to look at your device and start figuring out what am I missing? What am I missing? And I need information or you know what be at peace that you're world and things going on in your life is what's important to you versus everything else.We're getting super deep, real quick, but I asked just another No, no, I love it. But I want to ask a couple quick things because Eric and I talked about our family and our kids all the time. You have kids, family, wife married Tell me about that real quick. I've been married for 17 years.Two kids, 14 and 8. Two girls. They're fantastic. Beautiful.Yeah. So the reason I bring this up is because a lot of times since I've had kids, so I have a 14 year old a 12 year old about ready to be 15 and 13. Eric has his sons. And when we sit there and you live your life, when you start thinking how do I want my kids to live? It really changes your perspective. For sure You suddenly just go Oh, no, I want and the fomo thing like you don't realize that you're on your phone, but when you see your kids on the phone, you go Wait a minute, and they look at you and go, but you're on yours. That that puts you in check. I mean, Eric and I talked about this all the time.Yeah, it's difficult. I remember the when Ken and I actually just started working together. Whenever my oldest got a an iPod, they would communicate with other iPods. And I remember saying, Man, this is kind of weird. I don't know if I like it or not, but he does every now and then need a ride because he's going to soccer and basketball back then. And it helps. Maybe it was the lure that conveniently lure at that moment sank its little teeth in and then about three years later, he's got a phone and then suddenly we're like, well, that's certainly certainly is convenient in the younger we didn't have to wait till he was the same age. He actually got one about nine months later and honestly, looking back at it, I wish we had just never jumped off of that cliff. I do think that we both Marie I both have looked back and tried to carve out the time that we just absolutely don't have a phone at dinner when we're  having family conversations etc. But the thing that stinks, is it when it's on you and you're not planning the formal talk with with whomever you whomever you're talking with even if it's your family sometimes you like oh yeah, yeah, two seconds let me finish real quick. That never existed growing up and in all I feel is more fatigue at the end of the day just because of that.It's kind of weird. So wesomebody shared with me this YouTube video that you should probably share with your daughters. It is a Harvard psychologist which is talking about the affects and I've shared it with Eric before but it's essentially thatthethe fact that we have these desires and things when we get a like or and I say we because we're all human or get a like when we get a share when we get whatever it releases dopamine. Yeah. And dopamine makes you feel good for a quick second.They knew that when they created it. Isn't that nuts?  For sure that's nuts! It's the gamification.See that molecule right there? That's dopamine, advancement of dopamine because we sit there and look at this, and I just think, wow, I want to actually...when we talk about it, we don't want. We don't want dopamine pleasure, you want happiness, Serotonin is the happiness molecule. And when you release dopamine, you actually reduce your happiness molecule, which is serotonin. So everything that is done, and unfortunately stopped, sorry. Everything that is done is to get people to do more of it. We're talking about tequila companies we're talking about. And the beauty is this is a great segway for us to talk about this, that this isn't a discussion of desires or everything. It's a discussion of how do we start healing? Yeah, well, one way to start healing is is that because of all this crap that's going on, we as a society, have an Endocannabinoid deficiency. And I think that's kind of what you were gonna get at that you were you went from the space of digital to realizing I need to start helping people.Yeah. Well, I got to this place in my life whereI had enough money to where I could just say, you know what, I'm not going to do this anymore. And I mean, we could go down that route of, should I have done that in the beginning anyway, I don't know. But I decided I'm going to apply everything that I've know that I've learned to this point, and apply it to something that I'm passionate about and giving back to people. So all of this research that I've done, and you talk about not going down the route of, of medicine. I did it in my own way. Right. It was, it was experimental. And, and so I gained a lot of knowledge along the way of what worked for me and I wanted to I wanted to give back so we took that that knowledge especially in the technology space and applied it to I mean if you go to our site it's I'm going to brag a little bit our site is is fantastic. We've got a....what's the URL real quickCbdtakeout.com so we've got a bot on there that readily answers questions now it's about to get an upgrade so he's not perfect right now but we're we're growing and we're we're making updates to the system but technologically we're we're, we're spot on. So we wanted to build a fantastic site that was really easy to use. And then we saw an issue in the market with this flood of CBD products that were unregulated and because I have toyed with supplementation for so long, I there's so...You can say so much and it's hard to weed through all of that junk and so we wanted to help people by vetting those products and having a marketplace of fantastic products in one place that like you talked about that have the the lab tests and every product has the lab tests that you can pull up and see on our site.That's awesome. I think it's I love it when people have a success in one industry and then want to give back. That's essentially what you're saying.Well, I wanted to do that all along, but it...No we don't want to tell our audience that I made you take off all your gold chains and your watches and what you've got like for Lambos out front right? Right. Not that well. I can just pay my bills. Let's say it that way. But it is it's just fascinated because you come from a background of health and there's no doubt about it, dude. I mean, Kentucky cheerleading. I have had friends that have been cheerleaders and they're like the most. I mean, they're like now CrossFit beasts that I work out with. I'm just like, holy cow. Yeah, these guys like that is hardcore. Yeah, Kentucky cheerleaders a dynasty. I think they're on their 23rd national title, I lose count. But my my teammates still a coach their Jamal Thompson. And they are, they are beasts. They're fantastic.It's so I mean, essentially you're a an elite athlete, gets sick, tries to discover his route develops a successful business. And then wants to give back and you're giving back by CBD takeout by trying to make sure that people have access to proper material, proper products, proper supplements. I think that's fantastic.Yeah, I think the other thing to say there is, we were dedicated to the process. You know, when there's a product that everyone wants and needs, it's very easy to get on the latest gimmick and we refused to do that. We We're taking our time to vet these products to vet these companies and, and really vet the trends. And that's that's not easy to do that takes a lot of time to figure out what is right for for people and what products are right for people. So that's important to us.I was just looking at something because I don't hardly ever get to correct anybody but I want to have some fun since you went to Kentucky. Kentucky did win a ton of national championships in a row. And they finally were unseated by the Texas Tech Red Raiders this last year. I just had to throw that out there. So welcome to the show.WhichI love the I rarely get to correct anybody just asked Marie. Yeah, I'm going to use this opportunity even though we're on our first podcast and I'm going to insult our first guest, but I never get to do it. I never getto do it and do it becauseHave you seen Scott yet?Since we were... Oh no I haven't. Okay well the nevermind. I'm holding that okay. Yeah okay. But back to Texas Tech now look them up and see how many they have won. I think it's one.You're right. We just did it we just did it so you can come on the show.In fact, you know, they are always...I work for the organization that you know for that competition. Varsity spirit worked for them for a long time. They want someone else to win because nobody wants to go compete because like well, Kentucky's already won and the competition hasn't started yet. So there are they're actively hoping that someone comes and beats the team.I went I went to the football game this last weekend because gage went out to go visit Tech's campus and when we were there, they talked about how there was finally a school to unseat Kentucky. Yeah, I'll still give mad props. I mean, that's, that's a huge thing. I mean, so it's basketball and cheerleading. Everybody knows that about Kentucky. It's becausethe university really supports the program. If you go to other universities, they just don't support the program and I understand cheerleading is a huge liability and it doesn't make any money. Kentucky just really appreciates. I mean that there's there's been a guy there. T. Lynn Williamson he is the university attorney. And he started the cheerleading team at the University of Kentucky. Dedicated.How dedicated Kentucky is to finding talent, too. He doesn't come from Kentucky. He's originally from Denver city, Texas. Yeah. Yeah. I'm from Texas.Yeah. How'd you end up going to Kentucky? Doing cheerleading? Yeah, yeah.So I went to a junior college first. And I got recruited. So the junior college I went to was really good at cheerleading as well. And you come from a background of gymnastics is that correct?  yes. Yep. Man that's impressive.Well, now I'm just old and...You're not that old.So one of the things I want to ask you did you have to quit gymnastics after you grew the mustache because the aerodynamics threw you off, or is that something that you can still do gymnastics with? Actually when you twist it makes this cool whisp.you spin faster.So one of the secrets if you guys are not out there the reason why Kentucky wins and gymnastics every year is that all the men have to have mustaches because it actually it actually augments the twists and turns. Yeah, yeah, that is awesome. So you have this really kind of cool background and then you do CBD Takeout and you're doing it for one reason. It's one reason is to source proper supplements. Is it only CBD or do you guys have other supplements or what are you doing? So it's all CBD in different shapes and forms, right? We've got salve, we've got capsules, we've got tinctures, we've got massage oils, there's quite a few different we stay away from the gimmicks like CBD candles, CBD toilet paper, that kind of stuff. We don't carry that. We want good value for our customers, you know, if you if you can't absorb it into your system, and there's really no value to it, we don't carry it. But, you know, honestly, I've built a business for scale to be able to help as many people as we can to reach as many people as we can. So in terms of direction of will we can carry other products, I'm open to that. Does it help people? Does it increase the benefit of CBD? If there's a product out there, maybe cue  Atrantil. That that works together that has a harmonizing effect, we would consider that.When he and his wife went home, he let me know that she'd already picked up Atrantil from people's pharmacy. Oh, that's awesome.Yeah. Well, what I love about this is that you're not doing the death by 1000 cuts. You're staying true to one thing. We're going to do one thing. We're going to build a really good website first. Yep. We're going to make sure that the thing that I'm good at which is digital, we're going to do it well. And then we're going to offer this. Now you have a calling to this, why do you think it's going to make a difference?I think in that goes back to you talking about building it in a way that we can execute properly. I, I'm convinced that and I mean  there's science behind this, you can talk about this that our bodies need cannabis. And and so I, I think that there's some interesting reasons why people have been have been kept from cannabis for so long. And I'm frankly I'm just excited to be a part of call it a revolution Call it whatever. I think the impact that cannabis can have on people lives because you can remove so many pharmaceuticals, you can aid with cannabis. And then that puts you on a road. I don't think cannabis is the end all. I think that it can still be a crutch depending on how you use it. I think it is. It has the potential to put people on the road to healing. So I think it's very powerful. I think that there is a fantastic opportunity. If we can wade through all of the noise and trust me people there is a lot of noise in the business right now. The the people that I talked to day in and day out. There's some great people that are getting into the cannabis business, but there's a lot of people that honestly it's the the old culture of just drug dealers that have moved one step over to legitimising and they still have the same principles and so  we're really committed to the culture of cannabis and representing it in in a proper way and we could spend probably an hour talking about what I think the the proper way to do that but... Let me just clarify really quick for the listeners here so cannabis what you're talking about right now on your website is purely CBD correc?t Correct. Yes and we split that up. We have some that are guaranteed THC free we've got a filter on that. If you need something that is guaranteed THC free you can find it easily. But everything is hemp derived so it's all . 3% or less so all federally legal.And it's so frustrating because when we get into this we understand that the confusion about it. Cannabis where you're knowledgeable about it because we know that comes from the same genus species of the plant, but everybody hears cannabis and they have a connotation of it.Yeah but in and that's the that's the thing that I'm talking about changing because I believe in the power of THC as well in proper dosing. But here's the thing is we don't even in legal states, the the science has not come along enough for people to get accurate. dosing, time and time again, it's still trial and error. And so while you can't overdose from THC, you know, from a medicinal standpoint where you know, you can't kill yourself, but it can cause psychological issues if you consume too much THC. So that's the culture that I'm talking about where THC has this, this negative connotation because it's been attached to this attitude of rebellion. How high can I get, can I get the strongest THC product available, and I just think that's wrong. And because it's been represented that way, then we don't get the the truly beneficial aspects of THC and and so many people have dismissed it, but then they'll go get, you know, an anti anxiety drug that causes 15 other issues. So how do we move back to this culture of, you know, business people should be able to consume small amounts of THC that are blended with other cannabinoids. So if it's just THC, that's where that's where you have issues with. I'm super paranoid and I'm freaked out. If you were to consume a nice dose of CBD in conjunction with that, it balances it out real nicely. So I just think that the industry is in the elementary stages right now and I'm talking to all of the the entire cannabis industry. I think it's in the elementary stages. And we're excited to be a part of that.You know, we if anybody's interested in getting a little bit more into this Chris Cresser just had a little client in both friends of ours just had a little client who is CEO of oh hi energetics on his show. And Will went into deep detail about the history of hemp, CBD, marijuana, Cannabis, whatever. And it's been ingrained in our culture for so many years, our genetics actually eat a certain amount of it. And one of the things that's really fascinating to me is that we used to feed our livestock, hemp. And when they would eat that, like a chicken would have an anecdote of 250 milligrams of CBDA in it and then our bodies would convert it. That would be the acidic version of it to get all sciency and stuff. But basically, we were getting CBD in our diet until the US government decided to say. Okay, now wait, this is an illegal product, we're going to ban it and then the farm bill came around just recently in the last five years and started changing things and now it's become more available, but I think you're exactly right. I think that the black and white notion of I'm going to get high or I'm not going to get high I'm going to do this and that am I  doing something? No I was testing mine. But we're...Eric you could probably attest to this remember that the Joe Rogan does a whole set about how people have done that they get the little gummy. Eric and I, Eric and I are huge comedy fans. Yeah, yeah, like like he actually takes his sons to comedy shows when they buy and don't like to see what you see. Who the guys you've seeing live?In the last year we've seen Bill Burr, Tom Segura, Marie went with us on that and we also saw Hannibal Burris. Yeah. I mean it's it's a pretty rich and actually gauge for his birthday last week he and his friends went to go see Eric Andre that's off the chain. Wild stuff right there.Yeah, Who was the comedian at  baby bathwater that just wrecked it.Oh, goodness. What is her name? She killed it.   She's a total amateur and just gets up there and just starts. She was inShe was in between bands on the top of a mountain and when I mean she nailed it. It was like, you gotta have your own Netflix special nailed, really. And she just sat there with her iPhone. She's like, I just don't talk about this and just killed. Love it. I respect comedy at that level, just having the balls to get up there and just do it is nuts. No kidding. So anyways, I'm digressing, but basically Joe Rogan does a whole set about how the guy gives him a gummy and he goes, just eat the arm. He'slike the arm? What kind of shit are we making these days? They just are gummy bears.They just they are. I can't tell you how many times I hear that story of people. They're like, oh, I'm going on vacation. My wife and I are going on vacation to Colorado. And we're going to eat some gummies so they eat gummies and they're like, man, I got so high. I was freaked out and like what I mean, that's what I'm talking about. You don't have access to how do you dose properly and edibles are especially bad because you're going through your digestive system and how much did you eat before that? How hydrated you are? So you know the insulin uptake yet all of that... Jeremy, have you ever tried alcohol? Drink this bottle.Right? Right just chug it. Yeah.yeah. Can you guys hear me crackling? Yeah, I don't know. What's up with that?Yeah, I think so. You know what I'm gonna go take a little pee break real quick. Okay, figure we forgot the crackling you guys keep talking and you're on camera right now. All right. Okay so what we'll do is we'll hit here real quick about whenever someone does visit CBD takeout something that's interesting to me. We get feedback a lot about people that take CBD currently and order it from KBMD health. Most of our feedback though, is directed towards people who come to see Ken for gut issues in particular, IBD such as Crohn's, ulcerative colitis, advancing proctitus, even to a lesser extent, a lot of folks who have found issues with celiac disease, but that began to open up a completely different arm of people who have systemic autoimmune disease. So a lot of IBD's are viewed as are viewed as an autoimmune disease in and of themselves, but so is psoriatic arthritis or all the way up to Alzheimer's. Where do you get a lot of your reviews from? Because the thing I really love about your right, your website's great, and I've seen it before, but as I'm watching it scroll now. You get so many athletes on here. Yeah. And Brandon, the host of lazy Sunday'z podcast, has his own CrossFit gym. So the synergy there and your application obviously the way that you're marketing to these folks, where do you get mostl of your reviews and do you see them kind of branch out a little bit?Yeah. So one of the things that we looked at when we we developed a site was what are the the markets that we want to to support and athletes is definitely one of those you can see that pretty quickly when you go to the site. And the reason that we wanted to focus on athletes is because the CBD's ability to help with recovery is is really, really great. So and what I mean by that is I don't think it's any secret that CBD helps with sleep, sleep quality. So if you can improve your your sleep quality, then your body is going to recover better and more quickly and for athletes that that's key, especially within the CrossFit, CrossFit world. It's how much how much output can you get out of your body, and so recovery is the biggest is a big deal there. And then the other thing is, you've got receptors in your skin, Endocannabinoid receptors and so you can use topicals to reduce soreness. So athletes use our products very consistently. So obviously a group that we we wanted to service. Another group is the aging community that does have issues with specifically arthritis, because, like you mentioned, Eric arthritis is a symptom of, of inflammation. And so CBD has shown that it has the ability to lower inflammation. And so we get a lot of feedback from that group. I think also that group is, I don't know, I feel like they are more open to providing us feedback. We get more more feedback from that age group than we do from our athletes. Athletes are always talking about it when we see them, but that aging community man they give us a lot of reviews and feedback, a lot of emails and we hear fantastic stories, you know, you want to talk about reaping the benefits of creating a company. We talked about this quite a bit of, you know, customer saying, I haven't been able to walk in, you know, six months because of my arthritis. And now I it's changed. This was a word that was used, it changed my countenance I had to go look it up. But it really is helping with that arthritic community. In fact, we've written a couple of blogs on on how it helps with arthritis.Wasn't Chad Hudson, his father, one of those that..He was, yeah, he got off of opioids. I mean that that stuff blows me away when we look at the opioid crisis that that we're having in the United States. If if we are directly directly related to helping people get off of opioids, man, I'll keep doing this forever.That's that's, that's no joke. So Ken, just while you stepped out. I was talking about how we get feedback through KBMD mostly it originates around gut health gut issues, gut inflammation about what we've started to basically branch out and get reviews from people going, I have autoimmune disease, etc, etc. But essentially, like Jeremy just outlined, it all is based around inflammation. So according to their website, if you look at everything and it's it's based around athletes and recovery is where they started getting their reviews, but now, just like what we experienced the KBMD health, you're starting to get reviews from all different facets and it's the geriatric community is pretty impressed I think with their, their access now to CBD. And it's unfortunate that it took until their golden years to start finding something that is going to work for them.There's a couple of, if I can, a couple of other areas unless you're going to if you're going to change the topic. We gotta goat in here. We've got a goat. Goodness gracious.So a couple of other areas that we are focused on on the site. One is, is pets because they also have an endocannabinoid system. And, you know, we hear dogs freaking out on the 4th of July.I'm sorry, I was trying to time that to open for you. I was going to have a bark and I tried to download an animal sound and it became a goat. So but one of the things that people don't realize is that goats take CBD too. Yes, if you have goats. Let's make sure that...We have a goat section...look for the goat tab.So one of the things so I I've actually talked to a lot of high goat athletes that have been going to your site CBD takeout Yeah, yeah. These are elite goat athletes. These are goat jumpers goat runners, and they love it.Yeah, yeah. We're thinking about rebranding it to just be I mean the feedback we get from the goat community.Of the animal species they're some of the best credits in there. Yeah. And they can they can actually afford high level CBD.You'll find that selection in your takeout C Billy DeeI was trying to think of something, something snappy, but that was good.I'm really good. I'm really good at URLs, man. Yeah.So yeah, so um, unfortunately, I have to, you know, one of the one of the addictions that Eric does have is that he buys basically he owns every domain name.He spends hours on Godaddy.I got an ideaAll of a sudden you'll be like oh, that'll be funny to have like goat CBD athletes but somebody bought that?I have JeremyKinder.com if you want it?Yeah.Just kidding.20 grand.I'm sorry. No, I mean, the same endocannabinoid system so it it helps with anxiety and you know, dogs freaking out on the Fourth of July and if they have arthritis, I mean it's really beneficial. So we've got dog treats and tinctures and all that stuff for cats and dogs and animals.So let's just really quick because when we talked on the phone, we were talking more like my whole role is science. So not to sit there and a joke about goats and goat athletes and all sort of stuff but let's be honest about something. We we have a system called the endocannabinoid system, just as important as the cardiovascular system, neurologic system or gastro intestinal system, which I'm a specialist in. Eventually we're going to have doctors labeled as Endocannabinologist. Yeah. It's that important that it will be incorporated into med school, we will have specialists. And what we're going to need is people like you that are sorting through people that are just trying to make a buck, and you're able to put stuff up there that can actually help some people. So much like I like a website called examine.com. Where they vet products, you're doing the exact same thing for the CBD industry. And I commend you on that. And I want to thank you for coming out of your other other profession and being able to put your digital expertise into something to help people.Yeah, it appreciate it. You're right. We talked about the mess. I mean, what do you say 22 out of 24 products I don't know.Actually what they said was 26 to 28 to one yeah, is a fraudulent product.I don't know if you guys listen to the FDA hearing on CBD, but one of the things that kept coming up over and over and over maybe the most consistent thing was, how many fraudulent products there are out there. And it's it's bad. And I think, I mean, that's where the benefit of having the FDA regulate. You know, what can be said and what can't you know, from a marketing perspective is important because you've got people that just want to make a quick buck and they look for situations like this on a early to market, non regulated product that actually works. It is a quick buck type business person's dream. But you got to balance that with how do we vet all these products out and vet these companies. And that's what we we partner with those companies that we feel like are going to be there for the long term. And, and those are the products that we have.What I feel I like the most though about CBD takeout and this approach is that oftentimes with something like the FDA, you're right, they may try to put in some tools or mechanisms to prevent something from happening. But what ends up happening oftentimes is they block access to legitimacy. Yeah. So really, what Jeremy and his company are doing, I think, is from the inside, you're basically beating them to the punch saying no no no we've got a mechanism here. We can filter out the bad, we want to bring you the good so having a resource like that to turn to say, if I shop here this is where I'm going to find the high quality product it's no different than going to a natural grocers and knowing that every time you buy produce in there it's going to be organic regardless of the supplier Yeah. Or going to a whole foods and saying when I shop in the organic section here, I know this has been vetted, it's been tested I can trust what I'm buying here. There's lots of other reputable grocery stores I'm not just singling them out but there's a market for the market itself to police itself and they will rise.Yeah, you know where I think that's going to be particularly important at where I think that we're we're going to really take off is when the other cannabinoids start catching on when that research research starts showing that CBN CBG and blended cannabinoids because we will have already shown our community that we vet CBD companies and it's going to be the same companies that are doing the research on CBN CBG and we will be able to offer that very quickly to our customers as that comes to market.For somebody who is a former cheerleader slash digital marketer who doesn't believe that he should have get on a new medicine you are you are speaking like a doctor. And it is phenomenal. You're speaking like a researcher. What you're describing is, you understand the next wave of this. The majority of people don't even have any clue about CBD or anything else like that. But you're talking next level type stuff. Because the way that I envision it is the endocannabinologist will sit there and say, oh, my goodness, you have ankylosing spondylitis with ankylosing spondylitis. What I believe is that you need a ratio of THC of 10% CBD of 30% CBG of x and this is going to be the response you're going to have in order to be able to control your immune system. And we're not gonna have to put you on prednisone would not have to put you on infliximab, but Remicade or Humera, and the future of this is essentially real medicine. And when, because what I would like to do, I mean, when you sit there and say I love the fact in the very beginning of the show, you said, Well, I made enough money doing this other thing that I can focus on my other thing, I would like to make enough money doing my thing that I can sit there and do my real passion, which is research. I love research. I want to be able to sit there and say, Jeremy, I believe that I'm going to do this study, we're going to pay for it. We're going to look at what these different Endocannabinoids do in different diseases, and then I can go to somebody like you that can actually promote it in an ethical, honest way to say that this is the research that's there. If this is something that you believe that you need, that's awesome, but we've done our homework on the products that are there. And quite honestly, if it's OhHi energetics if it's elixinol that CBD line with CBD plus, these are all really good companies. Yeah, we need to get the word out. It doesn't matter who's putting it out there. Yeah, it's Not a competition anymore. It's a matter of let's start helping some people.Yeah, yeah, man, you're hitting on a lot of a lot of great things that I'm it. I'm wondering how how deep I outta go into this, but you talk about ethics. And I mean, that is a common thing that you hear in business people talking about, we want to do this ethically I'm to the point that if if we can't do it ethically, I'm not going to do it. And that that really becomes a complicated issue. When you look at you gotta pay your bills, you got it, you have to decide, do we make this dollar or do we do this ethically, and I just got to the point where if I'm very solidified in that fact of the company will grow if we are servicing enough people in the right way. And when you talk about doing that research Doing what you're passionate about, and doing it ethically. I just encourage you to stick to that. And things, things will happen to reward that in a way because we need that research from from a humanity standpoint, we're our, our society is so written with anxiety, and I mean, everybody it is, I hate to use extremes, but everybody hates each other because they're on this political side or that political side and I'm just tired of, of our society being that way. And I'm susceptible as well. And and so, I, you start sparking, sparking these emotions in me when you start talking about those things of ethics and what you're passionate about and all those things because, man, our country has, has falsely said that We we were on this righteous pursuit and and we've said it for a long time as a country. And honestly, I don't think that was the deal. I think we were in the pursuit of of making money. And so I'm hoping that we can heal as a nation and go back to, to this place of being responsible and helping each other out even when it might be detrimental to ourselves. And what I mean by that is, okay, I'm going to help you even though that's going to cost me money in a way where I can't pay my bills. So stepping out there in a way to help each other like we should be doing.That reminds me of the book Atlas Shrugged by Imran.Imran. Yeah.The definition of altruism to actually do something where you are not going to benefit. Yeah, that is the definition of it. So...Big shout out also since we've been talking about CPG to Dan and Kayla Wright from Green Sweet are a small company that is started just out of California and they're going around finding all organic land from California is as far east as Texas to plant basically hemp and cultivate before it grows too big so that they can simply go to CPG. Because they want to do research. Yeah. They want they are dedicated research and they're going to work with OhHi. And hopefully us as we go forward.It's one of those things this is like this is it's it's super cool that we're setting up this conversation because that means is essentially the first time we've met but it's crazy. How many people want the same thing. You want your kids to be healthy. You want to live a healthy life. Yes. You want to be able to pay your bills. Yes, you want to do all this stuff, but the majority of people want society to rise as a whole. Yeah, we really want to help and I think that one way that we can do this is to focus on the endocannabinoid system. Yeah, and just get everything back in balance. Yep, that's my thing that I tell all my patients The endocannabinoid system. What it does is just mediates everything to get everybody back in balance so that you're not over firing. It's not a big nerve that's setting off.Yeah. Yeah. The cool thing about that is, you know, Eric, you were talking about the feedback that we get. And yeah, I think CBD might be getting a bad rap for all it fixes everything. But the weird thing about it is when you balance your body, I mean, I was talking to somebody the other day that said that they had male male pattern baldness and they said, Well, my hair started growing back. And you could you could save what the CBD is not going to do that. But the thing is, is CBD is putting his body back in balance to do what it was supposed to do. So his body was just out of balance in a way. Alright, so I mean, not to not to interrupt, but a great example is when I see patients and they're like I've have I'm having weight loss. I'm having a hair falling out having this and that and then we can get to the point where you realize oh, you're not sleeping well, you're stressed. Your your thyroids out, and then we fix that. And then everything starts fixing itself. They don't think anything of that, right? They're like, Oh, well, we got your thyroid back to normal. Yeah, your hair is growing back, you're sleeping better. You're having normal bowel movements. It's all good. They're like, Oh, yeah, my thyroid's back to normal. That's cool. And we did that through nutrition usually, yeah. Because I'm not a not an endocrinologist. So I don't just you know, but we usually do it through nutrition and you know, change in lifestyle. Nobody thinks anything of that and, and then when we do the endocannabinoid system, ahthat can't be true, yeah. Guess what? Yeah, it essentially is like a hormone. Yeah, it's essentially it's a system. The endocrinology system is everywhere in your body. Your neurological system is everywhere in your body. The endocannabinoid system is everywhere in your body. Why can't it just come back to balance and cool things started happening? Yeah, it can That's awesome well I think that'll do it for our first podcast from the first studio our first our new studioWell we want to we want to end with one, okay. We always want to end with something with our guests. Yeah. So Jeremy tell us one last time about CBD takeout where they can go to find you where they can find you on social media the usual stuff and why supporting you supports the industry and helps people.Yep. Right on. So CBDtakeout.com. You can find us on Instagram CBD underscore takeout Facebook CBD takeout you know all the normal stuff you can find this if you go looking for us. We are a marketplace that vet CBD companies and provides the best slash high value CBD products and that has many different forms. You know, tinctures, salves, all that good stuff. And in one fantastic, easy to use website, one place to find that you know, going back to the the benefit of the industry is we're doing the work you know speaking to you customers. We know that you're overwhelmed with trying to find a good CBD product first you're like, what does this do? Second, why is it everywhere in the gas station or whatever? Third, how do I choose the product for me? I would recommend you go to CBDtakeout.com, we're doing that work for you and constantly reading laws, reading science, reading the research and vetting these companies to provide great products for you to use.It's awesome. I got one question for you. I've been looking for the best CBD toilet paper. Do you guys offer that?Yes and it's made of goats hair.No, no mo nomo hair.There you go. That's great.So and I wanted to add one of the things that you said when we first met to your website that ya'll wanted to add and the reason why I wanted to get you in and and Ken here together is soon ya'll like to be able feature educational videos. Basically walk people through the application of CBD and what to look for. Yeah, certainly. And we're about to launch a video series. It takes time, you know, coming from the technology world. I don't have video, well, I didn't have video equipment. I didn't have all these microphones and all this stuff and so acquiring that and figuring out what equipment do we need and, and hiring a good editing company and because if you outsource everything, you guys have probably figured this out, you lose your voice. And and so we figured that out pretty early that if we had a marketing agency doing everything for us and videographers and everything, then they were telling us what to do and they were chopping it up in a way that we didn't necessarily want to do. So we have decided to slow that down. Everything is done in in house and then we we will dictate, you know, hire out certain things but it takes time to build all of that but we are coming out with a video educational series. And y'all frankly, let us know what you want to hear we we don't want to just be talking about stuff that we're interested in. We're directing this to you guys and to educate, educate our customers, so let us know.Well, I'm going to offer this to CBD Takeout that the thing that we can offer Eric and I, which is science, yep. And so, you know, if there's, we have access to graduate students that look up a lot of articles. I just got into several articles today from our favorite graduate student, and she sent me some crazy stuff on the endocannabinoid system and autism and you just eat it up because then you start breaking it down. What I want to do is I want to say the how and the why that these things can happen. Yeah, for instance, it isn't that oh male pattern baldness gets better with this. I'm going to say, here's the markers that get improved when you take CBD because your own endocannabinoid system will decrease the inflammatory brain markers aisle 12 aisle 23, TNF alpha, TNF beta and it's done in animals and it's done in humans and they look at it and people go there's no research. No, there's tons of research. Yeah, there's tons of research, you just got to put the work in and we fortunately have somebody who's a rock star at finding this kind of information and I get daily emails that when I have my next job when I make enough money and I can do what you're doing into the thing that I really want to do, then I can sit there and spend all day looking at it but that you're exactly right. So our our, our gift to you, we want to make sure that CBD takeout is successful. And we want to help you in any way. So if your if your audience if your listeners ask questions, we want to make videos for you CBD takeouts and not for a product for you that we can offer some help for your listeners and explain different things.Yeah, yeah, fantastic. I think that'll be great because one of the things I mean, it's why I'm here is there, there are people out there that don't want to be guinea pigs and don't want anecdotal evidence they want science and frankly, I don't blame them and, and so that's one of the things that we want to get better at is providing hard science as it's coming out and being on the cutting edge of all the research we want to be leading with with that information.Sweet. Jeremy, thank you so much for hopping on the show. So you'll find Jeremy's fine offerings at CBDtakeout.com that is CBDtakeout.com also brought to you today by Atrantil. Go to lovemytummy.com forward slash spoony save some money. But you're giving me hands here. I'm just giving hands because I'm just like oh wow this is sponsored by so many wonderful thingsThat's right. Sponsored by love, sponsored by God, this is sponsored by the world, this is sponsored by...Yeah, I wanna I want to thank lazy Sunday'z Podcast for bringing Jeremy and I together Tequila 512 casita, you can find about find out more about tequila 512 at tequila512.com. And of course, the new website for KBMD Health should be rolling out pretty soon KBMDhealth.com. If you don't like the current site, you have no one to blame but me because websites should not be built by anesthesia providers. Shitty website.Right? So Jeremy, so this is this is one of the things and this is this little piece of advice to everybody out there listening. So I have a patient who's an extremely successful business person. And the one of the things he told me was that you want to know the number one reason why businesses fail. I'm going to ask you this. What's Jeremy, what's the number one reason why businesses fail?I would say lack of execution.That's much better than me. I said lack of funding. Okay, so he said, they never jump. They never jump off the dock. Yeah, there's essentially execution. Yeah, they never just jumped anf go well, Eric and I are jumpers and sometimes we don't build real build the best thing.It's a long way down. A really, really long way. Yeah.And then when you smack, then what do you do? There's a quote from Mike Tyson that that I love. And he said, I'm gonna mess it all up. I'm paraphrasing. Everybody's tough until they get hit in the mouth.Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. That's his classic quote. Yeah, I mean. Everybody says I'm gonna do this, this and thisNow, what do you do? So jumping, I'm also a jumper. And I've had to learn over time when you bounce now what do you do? And I've learned to think before I jump a little bit, man, when I was young, I would just jump. Here we go. You gotta jump. I mean, that's how you start, but then when you bounce then what do you do? How do you execute from there on out?Well the beauty of this is that I'm not a jumper by nature I'm a I'm truly like and it's funny when I think about it I'm truly a scientist by nature I've been Yeah, I've been a nerd my entire life. I've been in healthcare my entire life. And then you meet somebody like Eric and you get inspired and then we developed a product called Atrantil. And all of a sudden you realize that you become a jumper but I'm like, does not necessarily parachute but it's more Mary Poppins. My umbrella is science. Yes, well, I'm gonna jump but I'm pretty good idea that because of what's already been discovered what's already been shown, I'm going to land softly. Yeah, and I'm not going to do a dead cat bounce and, you know, just smack. And that's an old stock term, I think where people would sit there and say when the stock just plummets, it'll have a little bounce and that adds a dead cat bounce.  I'm not trying to offend the feline lovers and thing

New Riff is a name that has become synonymous with bourbon lovers. You may have recalled our conversation with Jay Erisman, Vice President, back on Episode 072, but this time we get to speak with Owner, Ken Lewis, who drives a bunch of the decision making behind the company. It feels like an episode of How I Built This as we get to hear Ken’s story. From owning and hustling liquor stores to eventually selling all that to start a distillery, hiring some great people, and having a few strokes of good luck to put him in the position where he is today. Then we also get to hear about his thoughts on stickers and some future plans he has in store for New Riff as well. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. In 2013, Joe Beatrice launched Barrell Craft Spirits without a distillery or defied conventional wisdom. To this day, his team sources and blends exceptional barrels from established producers and bottles at cask strength. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Jim Beam’s Historic Kentucky Home on Airbnb: https://www.travelandleisure.com/hotels-resorts/vacation-rentals/jim-beam-bourbon-historic-kentucky-home-airbnb This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the top 5 states for bourbon besides Kentucky. What is your title? Tell us about your entrepreneurial spirit. How did you get into the alcohol business? How did you end up in Northern Kentucky? Do you have any regrets getting rid of your stores? How did you decide to sell Party Source and start a distillery? How did you get interested in bourbon? When was your first taste of bourbon? How did you find the team to get the business off the ground? How did you chose the mash bills? Tell us about the O.K.I. days. Do you still do contract distilling? So why did you release the bourbon at 4 years? How is such a young product so good? How did you get such a great location? What are your future plans for the bourbon? Tells us about the balboa rye. What do you think of the single barrel stickers? 0:00 Everybody Are you interested in looking at the distilling process and pairing that with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you should check out the online distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It's an online program. It can be completed in as little as 15 weeks. It's taught by both of you have all business faculty and corporate fellows. So you're getting real experience from real experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. all that's required is a bachelor's degree, go to U of l.me. Slash pursue spirits. 0:34 I thought, you know, this could be almost like semi retirement because once you start distilling, I mean, you just kind of sit around and watch barrels age, right? That's what I assumed would happen. You know, I'd wander in, you know, at noon or something and 0:47 get myself a glass. Hey, you 0:48 know, how hard can it be? You know, you're just gonna watch these barrels. Get old 1:04 What's going on everybody? It is Episode 223 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny, one of your host, and it's time for the bourbon news so let's get to it. Woodford Reserve is releasing their fall 2019 Masters collection is a chocolate malted rye bourbon, this limited edition and one time release is offering a different flavoring technique where they toast the ride grain just long enough that it begins to taste like chocolate. This bourbon will have a suggested retail price of 129 99. It has hints of guests that dark chocolate as well as spice coming in and at 90.4 proof. The completed mash bill will be 70% corn 15% of the chocolate malted rye in 15% of distillers malt. Baker's bourbon is getting a facelift and a rebranding as well as a new limited edition offering. This one sort of flew under the radar for a lot of people. It was first picked up almost a year ago by ski Through the TTP just kind of trolling through the website, but now people are starting to find it on the shelves. The Baker's bottles with the black wax that we once knew is going away but there's going to be an upgraded packaging and a slightly higher price tag coming in as well. It is now changing from a small batch 107 proof to a single barrel but still at 107 proof like keeping a seven year age statement. There's also going to be a limited edition 13 year addition of bakers that will have an adorning a metallic inspired label as well as a metal neck charm. We've seen pictures of them already out there so keep your eyes peeled when you're going to the liquor stores. Travel and Leisure magazine has reported that starting on Monday, October 21 you will be able to rent Jim beam's historic home on Airbnb being Suntory will release a limited number of one night stays available for booking through the end of 2019 and each day is priced at just a mere $23 and this marks the same exact price as a bottle of Jim Beam black bourbon. The only catch is that you have to be 21 years or older to stay inside the home. But inside this store home, you're going to have three bedrooms as well as two and a half bathrooms and it overlooks the beautiful ever bought lake. And it comes stocked with a full bar of Jim Beam Bourbons. You can read more about it with the link in our show notes. New riff is a name that's become synonymous with bourbon lovers. And you may recall our conversation with JS man who's the Vice President and back on episode 72. But this time we get to speak with Ken Lewis who drives a bunch of the decision making behind the company. It almost feels like an episode of how I built this as we get to hear Ken's story of owning and hustling liquor stores to eventually selling out a lot of that and to start a distillery hiring some great people. And as most of these stories go, it's just a few strokes and good luck to put them in the position where he is today. Then we wrap it up by getting Be Here some of the future plans he has in store for new riff as well. All right, now let's get to it. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 4:11 Hey everyone, Joe here again. In 2013. I launched barrell craft spirits without a distillery and defied conventional wisdom. To this day, my team and I sourcing blend exceptional barrels from established producers and bottle strength. Find out more at barrell bourbon com. 4:26 I'm Fred minnick, and this is above the char. This week's idea comes from Patreon supporter bill now, Bill asked give me an overview of the production and other states who is making their own juice. When did they start? Is Kentucky bourbon better? pick five states and highlight the top distiller in each one? Well, I think it makes most sense to take a look at the states that are bordering Kentucky. The states that are bordering Kentucky have the ability to actually pluck talent from the distilling capital of the United States. Isn't that that is Kentucky. There's no question about that. You also have access to the still makers and the and the training and, you know, places that are close to Kentucky can, you know quickly drive down here and learn from the likes of Vendome or independent stave, etc, etc, etc. to the access to talent that puts Indiana right up there. And of course Indiana has the MVP ingredients distillery that has, you know, goes back to the 1800s. It's in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, former seniors plant and I dare say you know, their bourbon rivals Kentucky's on a regular basis. Indiana is also home to you know, upstarts like Cardinal spirits that are very exciting. So Indiana is definitely on that top five list for me, Tennessee. Obviously it's known for jack daniels but we can't under look like some of the other great whiskey coming out there. Whether you like the style or not George decal is putting a lot of bourbon out onto the market, either through you know source purveyors or under their own label. And it's getting a lot of attention winning a lot of awards. You also have Charlie Nelson's Greenbrier distillery uncle nearest is coming on Coursera is in Tennessee so Tennessee is a state that is a no brainer to put on this top five. Now when you get outside of the states that really border Kentucky and are really growing on, you know, distilling wise, Texas stands out to me in a big, big way. Texas is a state that really they support anything from Texas. Texans are very proud of their state. And so if there's a Texas whiskey, it's selling out on those local stores, whether it's good or not, it's got that brand of Texas on it and people want that. That said I think about Connie's kind of stands out as the best from a from a quality perspective, garrison brothers does really well in blind tastings too. So Texas is one to keep your eye on. The one problem with Texas is they sometimes struggle with you know, water resources. So here's the hope and they get a lot of good rain. They can apply that to making good whiskey. I think Colorado is another one of those states. That's fascinating. Colorado really didn't come on until, you know, until the last decade. You've got Breckenridge there but a distillery that's really fascinating to me is to 91 to 90 was ran by this guy named Michael Myers. No affiliation with, you know, the Halloween guy, but he's a former fashion photographer. And he went from having a whiskey on the market that was just kind of so so to really improving it. So he's one of the most improved distillers that I've tasted in my career. And so he's done a nice nice job of building that brand in in Colorado and he finishes in Aspen stage and I tell you what, it's a fascinating flavor. So I think to 91 is an exciting story. I'm from from point A to point B. So I'm excited to see where they where they go next. Now rounding out this list, I'm going to have to say I'm going to pluck into the historical database of my brain in some ways, and say that New York is an extremely, extremely important state for the growth and rise of craft distilling period, when Tuttle town hit the scene in the early 2000s with Hudson baby bourbon, nobody really understood bourbon. It was not a time it's not like today or we had all these forums and people are talking about it or podcasts and everything. This was a time when people still thought bourbon had to be made in Kentucky. So what Hudson baby bourbon did for the conversation of bourbon just in general, is it allowed people to talk about well wait, bourbon doesn't have to be made in Kentucky, it can be made in New York can be made in Colorado can be made anywhere in the United States. And so that Hudson baby bourbon and New York open a lot of doors for people. So that's my list bill, Tennessee, Indiana, Texas, Colorado, New York. And if you guys have have an idea for above the char hit me up on Patreon that's at bourbon pursuit on Patreon or on Instagram or Twitter at Fred Minnick. That's at Frederick. Until next week. Cheers. 9:14 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. Kenny riding solo today coming to Northern Kentucky in the Covington area with a brand owner that, you know, this is this is one of the brands that have really started to garner a lot of national attention. They were once known for Okay, I, we had a few other people on the podcast. I think it was like two years ago now. And I'm now coming back because this this brand is starting to blow up so much. And it's amazing that the the national attention has been getting at just a four year product. And we're going to talk about that a lot more in depth because today on the show, we have the owner Ken Lewis. So Ken, welcome to the show. Thank you very 9:58 much can I appreciate it? So what do you go by You wouldn't just go by owner the entrepreneur the, you know when the head man in charge 10:04 Yeah, I'll check writer that's my main function it seems like founder, you know owner Yeah. 10:11 So you've been you're you're kind of a serial entrepreneur serial owner. So this isn't your first venture into not only just the the liquor business, but you've done something. I mean, let's talk about before sure party source, like was there was there a time before then where you're doing sort of entrepreneurial things? Absolutely. 10:29 Well, I started in, in the alcohol business and and I sort of hate to date myself, but it's a fact in 1975, so I was 25 years old. So been around the business my entire career. I fell into it at that time. But I found that I really enjoyed entrepreneurship and the alcohol industry in general, and I just kept growing with it because that's kind of what I like to do is grow a brand or grow a business and taking some side steps, but they've always been an alcoholic beverages. 10:59 So What was that that first venture into the alcohol? Well, 11:02 I the story real quickly because it's a cute story but a true story is I was actually an English teacher in high school for two years out of graduate school. And my wife wanted to go to medical school and we didn't have the money and but that was okay too. And I was not living. I'm a native Lily Valium, but I wasn't living and loyal at the time I was in, in the Detroit area in the suburbs. So my father and brought his brother to loyal and had been successful at what was the predecessors of discount department stores, you know, Walmart before there was Walmart, there was a chain in every city my dad had gone from World War Two and surplus military and had then gone into discount department store anyway, he had a very excellent location. And it was alcohol was fair traded the state set the prices It was kind of a no brainer. Businesses just sort of showed up and if you had a good location, it was pretty easy so 11:56 people drink when good times and bad good 11:59 times and bad. And and and you just needed a good location. So he set up my uncle, he's trying to help him out with this wonderful location for a real small liquor store. And my uncle turned out to be a drunk, a thief. He was a womanizer, and he was definitely a gambler. So his idea of running a business was the show. I 12:25 think he hit every single one of the Cardinals. Well, 12:27 yeah, he was good at that. And he was an all around jerk, too. So anyway, he, his idea of running a business was to come in in the morning at like 630 in the morning, take whatever cash he could out of the cash register and a bottle for the day and then disappear. Well. Needless to say, after about no matter how easy the businesses with that kind of approach. After eight or nine months, the business it failed, and it was shuttered and my dad said, you know, this is a no brainer. Why don't you come to town? Quit teaching for one year, take over this liquor store. I'm sure you can make enough money maybe to say Your wife to medical school. And you know, you can go back to teaching you know that you can do this as a side gig. So we didn't use Word gig. That was that's definitely not a 1975 word. But anyway, I did it. And I said, why not. And so he loved me enough to get started. And I really enjoyed it. I love. I love the people part of it. I love retailing. It was it was in the West End, African American area of blue collar area of loyal. I loved learning, you know, just about people and what they were doing. It was before urban renewal, so the very intact communities and I felt that they made me feel a part of the community. I just, I feel like it was my street education and I was there for seven or eight years. I paid my dad back after one year I was so proud and I never went back to teaching and just stayed in the alcohol industry. So that's my creation myth. 13:53 And so your dad was the store owner at the time and he told you to run it is that what 13:56 no he owned the discount department store okay, right next door, the generated The traffic guy made it such a great location. But we were right on the corner, you know, with our own independent little store. And it was like 1500 square feet. So tiny little store and I just kept going. And then without trying to be too boring here. This is 14:15 how I built Well, 14:16 after seven or eight years, Kentucky eliminated fair trade it was eliminated through a court case, because the state was actually setting prices for private enterprise so it was thrown out and no one knew what to do. So I said what the heck I'll I'll do something. So at that time that the trend in retail was big box stores and you know, maybe there are a few of your older listeners that will remember that, you know, it's just cut cases by cheap by NDO cut the cases, no frills and let the consumer just come in and save money and it was a big trend. And I said, well, let's try that with alcohol and no one else is doing anything Kentucky sigh I found this old AMP and Shively, another blue collar area of low evil and I rented the whole place and I started this started like in September and it was not going so well I mean I was doing okay but was wasn't gaining much traction my all everybody was interested in the industry and what I was doing and not very happy because you know people want to keep preserved the past and they didn't like this young upstart with new ideas for the alcohol industry so everybody is watching me like a hawk. And we also had the first PC and the small business that I knew of in loyal and in order to because we had a fair number of skews even even for the you know, even compared to today, we still had a fair number of skews so the computer was the only way at retail to manage them and I was doing all the data input and everything I was working you know, 18 hours a day and we had a law in Kentucky and I'm sure it's still is that you cannot sell below cost. Accidentally I was so tired sometimes I made mistakes. And I would sell you know I would actually put into the computer the cost instead of the price or something. Yeah, so accidentally I was selling a few items below cost 15:58 me like a like a consumer is like perfect, perfect storm. 16:02 Yeah, you can come in, you know talking about looking for destinies you can just come in and looking for deal. So anyway, its competitors are watching me they noticed that they turned me into the state ABC board and this is a magical story and it's absolutely true story. So the Saturday before Thanksgiving, the courier journal, the big newspaper of Louisville was doing a story I'm sure it was going to end up on, you know, right next to the obituaries or something, nothing story, but they were in the building with a photographer. And just at that moment, on a Saturday morning, the state ABC showed up with three armed officers. And while the photographer and the courier Journal reporter were there, they literally arrested me and handcuffed me for selling alcohol below cost. And this ended up on the Sunday before Thanksgiving on the front page of the courier journal was some headline like young entrepreneur blows away the liquor industry selling products to cheeky 17:00 arrest. It's amazing that you get arrested for that 17:02 well and it was ridiculous because you know, within one hour they they you know somebody the supervisor was apologizing and they let me go and it ended up like three months later I paid like a $50 fine and you know, it was no problem but it put me on the front page of the newspaper and then of course all the suburbanites couldn't get there fast enough and it was Thanksgiving and we were we were a success from that point. 17:23 It tell me you gave that newspaper like frame somewhere in your 17:26 Yeah, I think that actually I don't have it on a wall and I've actually tried to research and I have to be more diligent But anyway, it's a it's a true story we got started and then that grew into a chain at one point of six discount liquor stores in the state of Kentucky and Northern Kentucky and for two up here and for loyal. It was a big chain and just to conclude the story about died lose track of time and maybe 1214 years ago, I was really very tired of being a corporate person. I'm not born to do that. I like being on the street. I like being in a register. I like You know being in the in the trenches and I wasn't happy I had like 350 employees and you know a lot of debt a lot that's a lot to manage it was a lot to manage to cities and and and you know, so it's dealing the lawyers and bankers and all the problems personnel problems that got big and blown up, got to my desk and I wasn't doing I was unhappy. And so I I like to express it as I jumped off the capitalist trade. And I sold five of the six stores because I really liked running a store and I kept the party source in Bellevue Newport right next to Cincinnati. And it was was 18:34 the reason for that was it because it was a very high traffic high volume or was it because you're like, I need to get a change at a level what was the 18:41 precisely very pressing on your on your part because that's exactly the two reasons so I felt it had the best future because Ohio still 25 years ago had state stores. So and so it was a no brainer if you were very, very close and we were at the first exit of the main main interstate interstate of The East End of Cincinnati and we are doing extremely well and I thought it could grow and be even greater store so I wanted to focus on it. And secondly was 100 miles from a local side stop working seven days a week, because I had a family had children. So those are the two reasons that I kept it and I love that store. And the party source today I'm happy to say is the week say that we believe it to be the largest single store in the United States alcoholic beverage store physically and as today about $48 million in business but of course, I had to divest it five years ago in order to become a distiller but it's I sold it to my employees I'm very proud of that. And they're doing very well today and have paid me back and and it's it's moving forward it's still a great store. 19:47 So while you were still on the retail side, was there ever a point where you had any mild regrets or saying like what if if I didn't get rid of these these five locations like could have grown bigger Could I have gotten a Because if you think of today of what's happening, you've got the total lines of the world that kind of buy up people like is there is there ever that kind of what if scenario in your head 20:08 no because and that just gets into personal philosophy, you know, the point of life to me is that just become rich. I think I think that's a root of a lot of problems today in corporate America and and and with our society in general there's too much greed and and it's all about me. So I enjoyed the entrepreneurial challenge and I liked working with people, a young team of employees as well as the customers and I love the freedom of owning my own store at that point you know, selling five of them I was debt free, so I could do what I wanted to do in the store and not have to do any short term thinking and so never looked back I have I'm happy to say I've always had a you know, very nice upper middle class lifestyle and by God that's enough. I mean, having some control over your life and and feeling that you're doing some good and that you're sharing enjoying some lives of your employees and being a good community member and caring about the environment and you know, having some balance in life and purpose and meeting, not just trying to make money and get bigger and bigger and bigger and die rich that never had any attraction to me. 21:14 So you're you're running one of the states not only just the state because you're here as you said, You're the first exit off of the coming off from Cincinnati in Kentucky. And it was it for a lot of people. It's it's a destination, it is a destiny, retail location. And at the same time, you're also like I said, it's huge. You're competing with the liquor barns in Louisville at this time. What was what was the determining factor to say I'm ready to hang this up and move to something new 21:42 well, and the liquor barns in Louisville were the original four of them were three of them were my my stores. Okay, so there we go. You know, so I mean that the circle goes around, but and they're good customer today and a valued customer of us today. The motivation Kenny was just Sometimes we do things and unconsciously our subconscious takes over. And just as whatever was 12 1415 years ago, I was just not happy and I call it my 71 aha moment because 70 one's the road between Cincinnati or Northern Kentucky and loyal and I was on it a lot. And then you know, had a lot of time to think and, you know, it just I wasn't happy and I wanted to make a change and I think subconsciously I knew that I was a little bit of a burnout I had been doing it at that point, retailing which is a very, very, very hard work and it is six, seven days a week and you know, all the holidays and so forth. So and fairly repetitious. You know, I was a buyer, I was a spirits buyer as well as the owner. And it's just the drill and it's, you know, as wonderful drill and I loved it, but it's intense and deals are coming at you and there's a lot of paperwork and and it's a routine that goes on and on and on. So I think subconsciously I was a little bit of a burnout at that point. I didn't want to retire. I love working and I feel that it's healthy for the mind. And I think retirement is like, announcing to your body that you're ready to die or something. So I really do believe that and so I was not at all interested in any of that. So, 23:12 you know, most people just get a Porsche. That's usually what, 23:16 you know, everybody thinks. I mean, when I sold the you have no idea what people said to me and what I know what they were not saying to me. You know, they were completely astonished and befuddled that a guy would take the party source doing $40 million a year debt free, you know, just a gravy train and not just like retire to a beach and on Florida or something and let a manager run it at least but to sell it, you know, sell it to the employees, you know, and take that risk on top of everything else was going to the spirits business, build a distillery madness, absolute madness, but anyway, JS men is my wonderful, fantastic well known a lot of your folks listeners will know who jr Smith is. So he's my co founder. I like to Thinking that way, although he's not an ownership, and Jay was my fine spirits buyer, the specialty spirits buyer at the party source. So he's worked for me for many years. And jokingly say, you know, can we're both watching this brown goods revolution happening and resurgence and resurrection. right under our nose. We see it at the party source every day of our allies. This thing's got legs. So, I credit Jay with, you know, why don't we open a distillery? Yeah, that's a great idea. Oh, it's funny. 24:31 Because they're not 24:32 any more good ones. You know, here we are running the party source, you know, you know, tracking money to the bank. Oh, that's a great idea. Jay. Well, along the way, it became a little more serious. So I do credit Jay and not myself with the idea for starting new Earth distilling. But it was it just appealed to my entrepreneurial side of me and the challenge aspect to get back into the game and and see what I could create and what my lifetime of experience in alcoholic beverages could do. And I love The idea of the challenge of starting from the ground up and building a team of young people, which has occurred and they're fantastic, and I just really wanted to have a second act in my life. And I actually and I'll tell you honestly, I thought, you know, this could be almost like semi retirement because once you start distilling, I mean, you just kind of sit around and watch barrels age, right? That's what I assumed would happen. You know, I'd wander in you know, noon or something and 25:26 get myself a glass Hey, you 25:28 know, how hard can it be you know, you're just gonna watch these barrels get old. So of course, it's proven to be way more challenging way more dynamic way more interesting than any of that. But that was the impetus was being at the party source seeing it happen. Realizing that why not Northern Kentucky all the action, the limited action there was seven or eight years ago was all in central Kentucky and just starting and loyal. You know, why not Northern Kentucky because we're right next to a city that's more than twice as large as local, very wealthy city and a sophisticated city. And, you know and the party source have done so well right next to Cincinnati, why wouldn't a distillery so we arrived decided to go ahead and take on the challenge and sell the party source and get back out there on the on the interest position where I just feel comfortable in a way that most people don't. 26:17 So you decide to sell the party source. Was this because you needed the funds to be able to start the distillery or is that is there another motivating factor? Well, 26:25 the main reason is in the three tier system, you cannot be a distiller or manufacturer, and a retail or wholesale or the that's what the three tier means I came across you can't be both. 26:36 I've also heard you could probably put your wife's name under the contract. I know you can get around. You mean that's another legal hurdle but yeah, 26:43 but but it's not true in Kentucky. And it is true in some other states, for instance, New York as a one store law and there's plenty of families that have four or five stores. But that is not true in Kentucky and we are way too big and way too visible to play any shitty shenanigans with the ABC and Too much is way too much as invested in it risk to take any of that on So, and I thought it was a great thing selling the store to the employees. And, you know, I take you know, when all of a sudden done I'll be very very very pleased with the success and the reputation and the great whiskey of new roof but I also will be proud that I've changed 100 or 200 lives and giving themselves some pride and some self some control over their lives as employees and an employee owned company, and a little nest egg. You know, I said when I retired when I sold the store, and my general manager john styles is a fantastic guy took a took it over. So we had an experience management team. I said there's only one thing I want, as long as I'm alive. When someone retires and they're getting like a six figure check. Even if it's just one of those big checks, you know for show. I want to him hand the check to that employee. That's what I want out of this deal because we're talking about you know, 15 $16 an hour employees. Maybe some Someday things go well and they seem to be after 20 years, some of them might be handing them a six figure retirement, you know, for people that are living paycheck to paycheck and I want to be, I want to be when that magic there when that magic moment happens. 28:13 Yeah, I mean, I think you're you're really wrapping up the epitome of what it is to be a better than, than most of the entrepreneurs that are out there that are after chasing that that big paycheck or chasing that big payday. Your personality is really showing through that it's a you're one of the good spirited people that are out there and, and trying to build something that's that's ultimately bigger than yourself. 28:34 So many other people. And I don't want to get on a tangent, but there's a big movement in the United States, called a lot of things. But there's chapters all over the United States called conscious capitalism, you know, then again, I don't want to get into a tangent. I'm not talking about bourbon. But the idea that capitalism doesn't have to be as raw and just ingredients selfish that you can care about the community and care about your employees. You can care about the environment. That the bottom line should involve all those stakeholders not just ownership so let's let's get back to bourbon let's 29:05 let's definitely get back to bourbon kind of talk about your, your introduction to it as well because I think we need to capture that because, you know, you had this very entrepreneurial mind going into it, Jay said, hey, there's this brown water revolution. But was there a point when you said like, you know, like, I'm from Kentucky, I enjoy bourbon. I like bourbon. You've worked in the stores. We're pushing bourbon to people or people to bourbon, like, kind of talk about your gravitation just towards the product itself. 29:33 Sure. And I'll be dead honest about all this. First of all, Jay and I are great pair and that is cofounders. Because Jay is a Trump has a tremendous palate. And he's also a tremendous historian of alcoholic beverages around the world. And he was the fine spirits buyer and he would sleuth out things that, you know, people in the Midwest certainly other than the two coasts had never heard of him brought in so he knew he has a network of people he knows about. around the world. So, Jay brings to new riff, the great depth and honest depth of knowledge and a profound palette, and, and sophistication about alcoholic beverages to, to our company. I don't bring any of that. You know, I mean, at the party source, we are phenomenal wine store, and I'm a knowledgeable amateur. That's my extent of it. So I feel I'm a knowledgeable amateur about brown goods. But no expert do not have a refined palette. I know my place and that's good too. So that's what I bring to the team, of course, the founder of the financial aspect and the team building and the long term strategy and perspective of where the industry is going and so forth. So we're very good team together. So I think that's been a core of how we've, you know, started new ref and where we want it to go with it. Can you remember your first taste of bourbon? My first taste of bourbon was probably like a lot of lot of your listeners It was and I do remember, unfortunately, I was in the backseat of a car when I haven't seen y'all know where this is going. Yeah, all bad. And it was I'll never forget it was JW dat in a pint bottle and drank it straight. And you know what happened in the backseat of that car, which I spent about three hours terribly drunk, and a happy cleaning up before I turned it back to my day. So hoping he would never know Chris, he knew instantly. But that was my first experience. Like, I'm sure many of your listeners. 31:31 Absolutely, absolutely. So let's talk about, you know, the breaking of the ground and trying to build the team here. I know you've talked about JA and bringing him in, but what does it take to find? The still the distillers, everything like that to actually start getting the business off the ground and as well as sourcing because I know you had source products that are beginning to 31:51 well, the wonderful, yes, I mean, again, we Jay and I are good team and I think in some ways, I'm a good leader and founder be I know my own weaknesses. And I know what I don't know, which is a famous line from the past know what you don't know. And so when we started, we decided to approach this as a very serious enterprise. We decided to approach it a scale, that we would command the presence of Greater Cincinnati, and tend to preclude competition from coming in. Our goal from the very beginning was to be one of the great small distilleries of the world. Knowing that would take decades perhaps to accomplish and who knows, it'll be a self congratulatory thing, no one's going to notice that but to play in the sand lot of some of the greatest stories of the world small ones, is our goal and remains to this day our goal. And so in order to do that, we wanted to do everything extremely well, right from the beginning and put the resources which I felt we had with the selling of the party source, to work to to wait as long as we needed to for Five years to start bringing out whiskey and to just go for it in terms of quality in our and to find a leadership position as a small distillery the United States. So knowing that we went out or I went out and found some great people to get started Kentucky's a wonderful resource, the best thing that I did, I did two great things. One is one of my very first hires after Jay was the person who would maintain our plant manager so that he was involved with the construction and every aspect of planning and knew where every pipe was going. And I think that's something that's overlooked by a lot of people is is is you know, is the the guts and the fabric and the the core and the maintenance of your of a very complex manufacturing plant. I knew enough to know to hire a great person who's with us Dean today and he does a super job. 33:52 Dean was actually helping us earlier trying to get the AC turned off. 33:56 He knows that he knows everything. He knows where all the skeletons are, but I mean he knows where every valve is in every pipe and he was part of the construction crew for the year and a half and the whole thing was money very well spent. Second thing I did was found Larry Ebersole, who's the maybe the most important distiller of American history that many people have never heard of. And Larry was the plant manager at Sega drums as you well know, Kenny, for 25 plus years, the head distiller I misspoke, the head distiller at sea drums, and he's the guy that invented the famous 95 five, right recipe that, you know, right? I know what it is, but it used to be, it's more of what is seen on the shelf, and it's wonderful juice and Larry is a brand bread distiller and a wonderful human being. I count him as a good friend, and he was newly retired and living in Hebrew one which is near the Cincinnati airport, which is in Kentucky, and so he's only like 20 miles away, and was kind of pointing it turned out being a consultant. So didn't know how to get started at it is in his backyard it was Yeah, as easy for eight. And so we are a wonderful thing. So he really threw himself into it. best thing I ever did. And with Larry being involved from the very beginning, we knew we would construct and we did construct a very efficient a very, very well thought through distillery and not make some of the mistakes that are easy to make. And secondly, and perhaps in the long run more definitely more important in the long run with Larry on board as our consulting master distiller he would train my Distilling Team which gave me the freedom to pick with his approval, who would be on that steering team and I very deliberately with Jays advice in this regard to we did not go to Maker's Mark or heaven hill or four roses and higher way and assistant Stiller, which is the standard procedure because in the end, distillers do the same thing day after day and forgive me I don't mean to ruffle any feathers traditionally, at least they don't tend to be a very imaginative lot. 36:03 Don't get me Don't break. What's more, don't don't fix what's not broken. 36:07 People want to you want Maker's Mark, you don't want Maker's Mark with cream cheese on it, you know, it's, it's, it's appropriate and it's what they're the corporation's want. So if we hired someone from Maker's Mark, we'd end up with Maker's Mark north. And in truth, that's what happens, you know, when, when folks go from disorder to story, so what I knew and with Jace help, I knew I wouldn't have known this on my own. And Larry to fermentation is the key and distillers tend to poo poo. Traditional distillers tend to poo poo poo, fermentation, they don't pay that much attention to it. But fermentation if you don't have a great fermentation, you're not going to end up with great whiskey in the end. The people the folks that really understand this are brewers 36:52 absolutely their people, they know what they're Do they know. So 36:55 we deliberately went out and hired a fantastic Brewer in this case. It was pretty Ryan sprints who will absolutely be known if he's not already to so many people as a great young distiller and will truly be in the Hall of Fame someday. And Brian had been a small, small Brewer with a microbrewery in Cincinnati and for about eight years had worked at Sam Adams and I'm not sure how many people know that Sam Adams is brewed in Cincinnati not in Boston. 37:23 Obviously I'm learning something today and 37:24 it is it's the old beautiful plant and 95% of Sam Adams is burden sensing that 37:29 now that name I've heard of the beautiful because it's like a Northern Kentucky kind of 37:32 well Cincinnati Cincinnati kind of it but but the plant was closed and And anyway, so Sam Adams owns it. So he worked for Sam Adams over there and a serious industrial plant. So he brought to us when I hired him and he wanted out because he's not a corporate kind of guy and he wanted to get back into you know, brewing so to speak, or, you know, the guts of doing it not just the big industrial and it was a unionized plan is to this day, unionized by anyone at different scale. So we found, you know, we know so many people in Kentucky and Cincinnati we found Brian and recruited him one very hard, eager to come in here to take the challenge when he saw how real we were, and to be part of a startup. And he just brought that fantastic imagination and knowledge of fermentation and an understanding of grains and malts that traditional distillers are just very linear and very blinders on 38:26 dance. So get your percentages, you're throwing your yeast. 38:30 Yeah, see you in a few days. Let's see. Yeah, well, every day do it every day and they make some great whiskey at all these heritage distilleries Believe me, I'm totally understand that. But we wanted to do a little riff or our own little tweaks and things. And with Larry able to train. It gave us the freedom to assemble that team, so no one in the distillery other than Larry had ever worked into this story before, but with Larry there, we did it as a team and we have a fantastic group of Six distillers today they're all career. They're all doing a super job. And Larry is he trained them, he stepped back. And that's just he's he was. He's our founding father in many ways. And Larry was very, is obviously very rice centric. It was the 95 five, right? He's so proud of and so and we happen to fit our tastes as well. So New Earth is truly a rice centric distillery. And I will, I've said this many times, we make fantastic bourbon. But I think our long term reputation becoming one of the great small distilleries of the world will have a lot to do with, with rise and rise of fence, interesting niche that I think we can play in that sandlot very, very well and be extremely well known around the world for our rye. And maybe stay a little bit away from the great heritage global distilleries you know in the future because you're we're all going to need a niche. 39:56 So did Larry help you out with choosing the mash bills as well for everything you're doing or is that more of a consensus from the group? There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever. So how do you find out the best stories and the best flavors? 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It's taken over by our Distilling Team and Brian now galera likes to come and taste and and offer some thoughts if we run into something new every now and then that's really past our abilities. We call her and he, you know, he really thinks very fondly of us. And we were his first client and, and I think he's enjoying our growth and, and is very optimistic about our future. So 42:27 well before we start talking about you know a lot about your bourbon because I know you're doing crazy stuff with barrels and types of grains and malts and stuff like that. Let's talk about the okay, because I know you're sourcing at one point, what was the what was the gist? I mean, that's the thought process that a lot of startups go through and they think, Okay, well, let's get money rolling in. We'll buy some barrels will bottle it up. And that'll be a way to kind of build some revenue. Is that was that your thought process going into it as well? No. So least you're frank about. 42:57 Always be frank. I mean, the nice thing is you're dealing with The owner I don't have any, anybody I have to answer to and I'm getting older. So I'm pretty, pretty straightforward. Know, the answer was we were going for quality and we knew I mean, remember I you know, I own the largest liquor store in the United States I was the spirits buyer, I, I saw the cannery I saw the dishonesty of the, of the brown goods business I, I hated all of it and saw it from the beginning that the not disclosing not disclosing your source charging too much, you know, in a pretty perfume bottle for one year old whiskey and, and, you know, hurting the reputation of all craft distilleries, I saw all the bad things that have happened and continue to happen in this industry. So we wanted no part of it. That's not how you build a great small the story of the world. So from the beginning, we were always going to be transparent and incredibly open with everyone about everything we did. I had fortuitously bought a J's urging 350 barrels From MCP years couple years before we even thought about the distillery concept Oh, wow. So I had I hit Yeah, let's just you know, we'll bottle this someday for the party source. And so I you know, I wish of course I bought thousands. I hate to tell you they were like, I really hate to say this, they were like $375 a barrel. Oh 44:20 man. And you know, we've seen a in the price list now, 44:24 thousands and thousands of dollars if you could even get them and they were already like three years old when I bought them. So, fortuitously I had those barrels and we never bought any other barrels. So it's only 350 and the idea of having those barrels and okay i, we deliberately released it very, very slowly. The idea was just to have some bourbon in the distillery a good bourbon, because it's it's marketing and brand building. People come to this story, like new f1 it's two years old. They know intellectually that were too young to have great whiskey, but they still want to taste great whiskey. They still think you should have a final bourbon sitting around. So we did. And we were very clear it was okay i that we sourced, it wasn't ours, we just bottled it, dumped it and bottled it. And we deliberately rationed it out to last until our bourbon was available. And then we always intended and we did kill the brand because we we don't want to have anything to do with source goods. So it served its purpose extremely well. And then as you well know, Kenny, in the end, when it was 12 years old, it was a terrific value. And when people heard that it was ending, you know, became a cult item and they went crazy about it and it's still a little bit of one of those legendary things, but the purpose is never to have any source goods and that the sales of 300 or so barrels you know, for the size of new riff never moved the needle as far as helping us to survive. We we survived on my proceeds from the party source and on contract is still in for until we had our own whiskey to sell 46:00 Yeah, absolutely. So contract distilling is it's still a part of what your your daily businesses diminishing 46:03 all the time that the idea of the contract is still in was to survive. Until we became till whiskey could be four or five years old, serve that purpose, it was maybe about 45% of our budget and allowed us to be completely full which distillery in production, the story is much better when it's running, you know, at full steam, then turn it on and turn it off the equipment and so forth. So it serves that purpose. And gradually we're we're getting out of the, as we can afford to we're getting out of the contract distilling and taking back all those barrels for our own. You know, stock 46:39 your own aging and everything like that. 46:41 Yeah, we're doing a little bit and we'll do less every year. 46:44 So four years was kind of your your mark, when when new riffs started coming out. Was it for because you felt like it was ready? Or was it for because you said I think this is to the point where we don't have to worry about like, at this point, we don't to worry about putting age statements on the bottle. By TTD law so what was the what was the idea on for there? And were you nervous? 47:06 Yes, I was nervous. Of course. 47:09 JS man is the answer. JA again as our co founder and fantastic and brings that knowledge and Jays idea which I bought into and the rest of the team did from the beginning was let's not release any whiskey till it can be bottled in bond Jays, a historian and he's a lover things past very, very smart about the future too, of course, and, and current distilling, but felt that the, you know, years ago he felt that the bottled in Bond was was right for revival and that the original, the first federal law about food and drug purity United States was about alcohol in 1897, the bottled in Bond Act and Jay felt that the incipient incipient revival bottled in Bond was a fantastic movement and we wanted to be very much a family Remember that so we always intended to wait to be at least four years old. And then along the way we were very, very pleased with Larry results helped to, to be tasting things as you go along and things were moving Well, we liked our juice. We liked the way it was aging. So along the way we realized that getting to be at least four years ago, we were going to have a very credible whiskey out there. And I wanted to and I made sure that it was at a very credible and easygoing price because again, as a retailer, I understood marketing and sales and pricing, and wanted our whiskey to come out at a premium level and pricing, which you deserve this and also is a brand marker, but wanted to always make it an appropriate fair price. One, one click above the the global heritage companies, but not not at the kind of pricing that I've always found repugnant as a retailer and I certainly did as a consumer as well. 48:54 And not only that, as I mean, you come out with this the four year old product in right away. It started It's like kind of taking over a lot of the bourbon culture and the bourbon. mindshare, because everybody's amazed at the taste of a four year old product I don't think there's a lot of or really there's any other product out there today that can really say that it it competes of what new roof does at its at its age, like is there something that you can say that you can attribute that to? Sure or weapon of their sprinkled dust that you're putting? 49:25 sprinkle dust is the water? Yeah, it really is Kenny and and that's a nice story too. Because we first started when we plan and we're very close to breaking ground on the distillery we didn't know about our water source, our water source turned out to be an aquifer the high river aquifer 100 feet under under the distillery property and we didn't know about it when we first started planning but along the way someone said something to Jay you know you know there's there's a lot of water you guys gonna do a well and Jay ran with it. He's smart enough to listen and think you know and that's Jays personality. I mean he's a scientist and interested in everything and he thought I'm going to find out what the heck's under us. And we did we did we ran a test well, and then worked with the University of Kentucky to to analyze and understand what was going on underneath us. So geologically, it was just turned out to be a bonanza. Because the the aquifer and brief and I'm no stem person myself, so forgive me. But the aquifer essentially is a almost inexhaustible pool of water under the far northern part of Northern Kentucky, and it's created because the glacier stopped and created the Ohio River and created the hills of Cincinnati. That geologic force continues to the state of pump want to push water under the Ohio River, and it's going through sand silt, and guess what limestone and then Northern Kentucky from our site right on the river. You go straight up hills to go into southern can lucky to get away from Northern Kentucky. So as you go south, it's going up here. So we're in a bowl and all and as you look and you see the highways and the Brock along the highways, where they do the cuts and the passes and so forth, it's all limestone rock. So it's all coming from two directions and settling. And it's under us in this magnificent huge aquifer under our feet. And it turned out we did all the testing, and it came in and it's magnificent limestone filter, naturally filtered water. It's it had no lead, which is you know, the great thing. It's high calcium from the limestone, very high mineral content, water, and it's 58 degrees year round. So we don't have to have a cooling tower. We're a very environmentally healthy and successful distillery and that water that putting that mineral water right into our mash bill, and you can drink it, we've all drunk it's just hard water. hard water tastes like crap. But it's great for to still it. And I would contend and obviously if someone's going to jump up out of this microphone Want to choke me but I believe it or not, Northern Kentucky new roof has the best water in Kentucky for distilling because the fact of the matter that the marketing people don't want you to know is that almost every other and perhaps every other significantly sized distillery in the state of Kentucky uses city water or river water and then they filter the hell out of it turned it into our water so they're putting into their mash bills whatever they're tell showing you in your advertising, 52:30 you know, whether it's coming from some sort of wheel that's spinning in 52:34 a lake or something absolutely in this wonderful spring and all that which long ago they outgrew you know the whole thing. But you know mean Buffalo Trace Polson the Kentucky River you know, the brown Forman polls for local municipal water I can go on and on and on and i'm not i'm not slamming them in any way they make fantastic whiskey. But we are bringing a natural high mineral content, awesome water into our message. Bill and God, darn it, I think that's when you only have like three ingredients going into your mash bill and one of them changes dramatically. That means something and then you layer on that Kenny, you know the the fact that we're all about quality at every turn and you know the the corn comes from a family farm the same one that for roses uses in Indiana and we can go on and on and on we we come off the still at less than the maximum we go into the barrel at 110. Instead of the legal maximum 125 we use 18 and 24 months aged in oak staves instead of the standard, you know, barrel at $100 more a barrel than other people. We go on and on and on. It's all about quality at every turn. But it starts with that water. So there are very good reasons. It's not by chance that our four year old thank you for saying so i think is a very good product. And you're going to want to get to this it's going to be fantastic when it's seven eight and 10 53:54 Oh yeah, that's what we'll save that here for a second because I kind of want to know your your plans for the future with that, but You know, back to this, you know, let's let's rewind it back another 1520 years or maybe 25 years, when you bought the location of the party source was it? You look at it now like just dumb luck. 54:11 Yeah, we bought the land and the distillery for your listeners that don't know, the distillery is right in front of the party source and we're right on right on the river. Across from Cincinnati, you can't get any closer to Cincinnati. But that was the point of the retail store, because Ohio had state stores and 80% or more of our customers came from Ohio. And that's why the party source grew to be such a large store. It's a it's a natural for Northern Kentucky but it's because we had all of Cincinnati coming to us so and then when I wanted to do the distillery the original plan was just Gee, this is a nice, I own I own some property. And that's another story too. I actually had to take out a levee and build a wall, a flood wall and so forth. million dollar flood wall in order to get more property. But the point was, I thought it'd be a great location. Very well known right in front of the source and there was a symbiotic symbiotic relationship you know people could come on a tour to see us and then walk into this fantastic whiskey store and shop and it's turned out to be like that but dumb luck in terms of the water absolutely dumb luck 55:14 it's just like being in Texas and somebody knock on your door me like oil in your backyard we'd 55:18 like to buy your land Yeah, and you just scratch under your armpits and go all the way down 55:25 so let's talk a bit about like the little bit of future state right because Sure, today we there's a lot of stuff out there it's a lot of for your product. There's people like myself we go we do barrel pics here. It's a four year product. I know that a lot of people we love it as is. However there's always this can't wait until it's six it's eight to 10 years so kind of talk about what your your future plans are to kind of stocks in these barrels. Sure. 55:52 Yeah, it's been it's been a but but first of all, it is a great ride and the four year of the bottle and bond is a wonderful product and will never release any plans. product from our distillery any whiskey that's less than bottled in bond for a year. And, and, and, and hundred proof and or it'll be barrel proof every one of the two. So, and that's why we've been and that's why we're always be because we think that's, we think that's the highest quality expression and that's what we're all about to, to hopefully become one of the great small distilleries of the world. Which by the way, even if we fall short, hey, it's great. I mean, life should be about lofty goals and and trying your damn this and, you know, if we fall short, and you know, we're not quite there. It still is a worthy endeavor. But signs are decent that we might, we've taken a few steps in that direction and we might just get there and 10 or 12 years in some form of recognition from the public and writers in our own self assessment, but 56:48 you really don't want to retire. Do you? 56:50 Know I actually, I'd like to stick around. honest truth is I'd like to stick around long enough in an extremely active role will stay a family business by In the business, everybody here is career we're not selling out, we're not going, we have no interest in one of the big boys buying a minority share, we're surviving. We're getting through the roughest part right now, economically, and we're going to stay 100% independent, because that's really the only way you can really achieve greatness is having incredibly long term thinking, and just be totally disinterested in short term results. So, and having that freedom of without any corporate decision making because whatever anyone says, nothing will change, we're going to buy you out and nothing's going to change. None of your people are going to change everything to say, everything's different a year later. We all know it. It's just it's a fact out there. So we're going to stay independent. And, and that's very important. So we've taken some steps. I mean, I think the fact Kenny, that I'm sure you're aware, we went out to our very first competition we ever went to, because again, why go to all these little county fairs or whatever, just so you can say, award winning, nobody. It doesn't mean anything to the like your listeners. And there's the People that we really care about that will establish our reputation. So we waited. We think like a lot of people that the San Francisco International spirits competition is the main spirits competition. It's an arguable issue but certainly one of the top couple we think it's the 58:15 you came on with a few medals from 58:17 it. Well, the thing is, we submitted all five of the products, we make three whiskeys and two gins and all five of them one double goal. You know, it's unheard of. 58:28 It's It's like going to the Olympics and just like it's 58:30 crazy. I mean, let's put it in context. And, and I'll abstract this real fast and backpedal. But you know, this year factually, Buffalo Trace submitted 21 entries and got seven double goals, numerous submitted five inches and got five double gold. We are not the equivalent above Buffalo Trace far better to story. You know, and they are, in my opinion, the best in the business. But the thing is, we've taken a step toward that goal. We you know, so We feel very encouraged to have some exterior validation. And it's so we're not just in a circle, you know, talking to each other about these things. So anyway, we started to take a step now to get back and sorry that sometimes I run on but it's a very passionate subject. We know to put up the very best whiskey that we can and to really have a very high world reputation as good as our four year old is and it's fairly priced as we will always keep it. We have to have older whiskey. So we've this year, I mean, it's all it gets back to a matrix of economics. Our first year of release, we held back only we held back 20% of everything we make to get older. Next year, we're budgeted for 33 a full third of everything we make, to get older. And what I will say now, which is actually the first time I've ever seen this public So it's a credit to the the reach that that that you guys have and the the interest in the students of your listeners, we're actually going to do a small expansion of the distillery. And we'll get back to that if you want. But the point that I want to make right now is the only purpose of that expansion is not to make more four year old or not to make some more money in the short run. It's to have older whiskey and a lot of it. So we are going to make a stand toward older whiskeys will always have a great four year old bottled in bond product at an extremely fair price. It may not go up in price for 10 years, stay at $40 fine with me. And then eventually we'll have a very fairly priced will have older whiskies and personally we'll see if things change. I'm all for age statements. I think again and and this is really where the future of new roof is going to be his older whiskies a great entry level that is fantastic. For cocktails and it's just fantastic for for sipping on without talking about it. But it'll be the seven year old eight year old, maybe 10 year old and whatever in very in everything that we make getting older that will put us on the map and will really I think make us proud and I think your listeners are going to really want to have someday we're going to try and have enough of it that it's not this high cult high scarcity kind of item I'm not saying that it'll be on a shelf but we want to have a lot more out there you know thousands of cases of older whiskey and not just dribble it out to people 1:01:35 makes more people are makes more sense people to start joining the Rangers program then so they get those was inside. 1:01:41 The Rangers program is ended 1:01:42 but the whistle as it I didn't know that. 1:0

The Age of Resistance comic featuring Snoke and Kylo Ren has got the Star Wars world spinning! So Ken and Joseph go into the issue to find out more about what it says about Snoke, Kylo, and the past & future of these characters. Plus, a look at news and your questions! All this on the 186th edition of ForceCenter From the minds of Ken Napzok (comedian, host of The Napzok Files), Joseph Scrimshaw (comedian, writer, host of the Obsessed podcast), and Jennifer Landa (actress, YouTuber, crafter, contributor on StarWars.com) comes the ForceCenter Podcast Feed. Here you will find a series of shows exploring, discussing, and celebrating everything about Star Wars. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts and Google Podcasts. Listen on TuneIn, Stitcher, Spotify, and more! Follow ForceCenter! Support us on Patreon ForceCenter merch! Get a free 30 day trial of Audible at www.audibletrial.com/forcecenter --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/forcecenter/message

Gor ni so licht, de Sworkraft Och, wat weer dat ’n romantische Idee, noch mol mit’n Zelt in Urlaub – so as fröher. Overs anschiend hett sick wat an de Sworkraft ännert – Gravitatschoon seggt man dor je ook to. De is düller worrn oder so – tominst wenn man dicht an Grund is. As ick dor jedenfalls blang mien Fruu in düssed Zelt leegen heff, dor harr se mi vull in Griff, de Sworkraft. Dorbi weer dat al ’n richtiged Kunststück överhaupt in düssed Zelt rintokom‘. An Enn heff ick dor jedenfalls leegen. Dat weer overs blots de erste Deel vun de Opgoov. Nu wull ick mi vör’t Slopen je ook noch uttrecken. Un dat Utplünnern is dor op’n Grund in so’n Zelt je opwenniger, as’n Mondlannung. Overs jüst, dat ick „goode Nacht“ seggen wull, heff ick markt, dat ick noch mol op Tant‘ Meier mutt. Dat ganze Kommando weller trüch. Zelten, dat is je an un för sick as buten slopen. Blots dat man ni sehn ward un dat man ni glieks natt ward, wenn’t regend – man ward erst loter natt, wenn de Regen al lang vörbi is un dat Woter langsom dör de Wannen dröppelt. Un man kriegt ook mit, wat all de annern Lüüd op’n Kämpingplatz sabbelt un wat för Geräusche se sünst noch mokt. Dor kriegt man Soken to heuern, vun de man ganz un gor nix weeten will. Annersüm heet dat natüürli, dat de annern ook heuert, wat man sülms in sien Zelt so vun sick gifft. Haueha, dor mach man gor ni över nodinken. Richti swor ward dat overs an nästen Morn, wenn man in sien klammed Bettüch opwokt un wenn man denn opstohn will. Erstmol rin in de Büx, de no de Nacht in’t Zelt ganz natt un kold is, un dorbi hopen, dat de Büx un man sülms düssed Maneuver uthölt. Denn geiht dat rut ut Zelt. Dat hett bi mi wohrschienli utsehn, as wenn dor ’n Tanklaster trüchwarts utparken deiht, den al 30 Johr keeneen mehr bewegt hett. Anheuert hett sick dat wohrschienli ook so ähnli. Un denn noch op de Been komen. Dor weer se weller, de Gravitatschoon. Na jo, wi hebbt dat schafft, mien Fruu un ick. Wat dat romantisch weer? Geiht so. Overs weenstern hebbt wi wat to vertelln... In düssen Sinn

Craig is on the WGAN Morning News with Ken and Matt. They talked about the Y2K-like bug that would strike GPS systems on April 6th, the hackable smart alarms, and Craig's stern warning to ditch Windows 7 and upgrade to Windows 10. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Related Articles: 'Gps Systems Will Be Struck By Y2k-Like Bug On April 6': Security Expert Says He Will Not Fly On 'Day Zero' After Governments Warn Global Devices Will Reset Due To Calendar Glitch Google Recommends Windows 7 Users To Upgrade To Windows 10 If Possible, As A Kernel Vulnerability Allows For Local Privilege Escalation On The Operating System. No Guns Or Lockpicks Needed To Steal Modern Cars If They're Fitted With Hackable 'Smart' Alarms --- Transcript: Below is a rush transcript of this segment, it might contain errors. Airing date: 03/20/2019 Dangers Of Smart Remotes - GPS Y2K Craig Peterson  0:00 Hey, good morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here again. And I was on this morning being Wednesday with three stations up in Maine, up in Maine's capital city, as well, and I was on with Ken and Matt. We chatted about a few different things. I ask them some questions about demonetizing deplatforming. What are the legal requirements there? And it was kind of interesting because of course Ken is an attorney to find out what's going on. The mom in Arizona with the kids on YouTube. Boy, what a mess that is. We've got representative Nunez who is threatening suit due to something very similar and we've seen this happen a lot so where is this line supposed to be drawn? Kind of interesting we also of course talked a little bit about technology and Matt's problem where Matt had his fob reprogrammed for his car and tied right in to a story this week about the smart alarms and how imminently hackable they are. So here we go. Matt Gagnon1:09 Alright, we are back again on 7:37 on the WGAN Morning News. Wednesday morning and get a matter here. And so is Craig Peterson, our tech guru. He joins us now. Craig, how are you? Craig 1:22 Hello. I'm doing well. I am I'm really interested in what's happened here. You guys have been reporting on this case of the Arizona mother who was abusing their children. And we also have I'm trying to remember who this was, someone in Congress just threatened suit or bringing suit against I think it's Twitter. Matt 1:48 Yeah. You were thinking about Mr. Nunez. Craig 1:48 Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Ken Altshuler  1:51 That's what you call a publicity stunt. Matt  1:52 Yes. He's gonna fail miserably. Craig 1:53 You think so? You think that's what it is? Ken 1:54 Of course. Of course. Matt 1:55 Because he knows he's gonna lose. So what else would it be? Ken  1:51 Public figure. Craig 1:56 Yeah. Well that's a really good point. How about we've got the Hallmark Channel cutting ties with Laurie we know this whole college admissions scandal and stuff. How far can that go ultimately? Because, again, they've got clauses in their contracts on saying that they have to be a good character, Ken 2:21 By the way, I pay nearly half a million dollars for my children to go to college, I don't see what the big deal is. Craig 2:28 In Arizona again, obviously, this woman what she's charged with is just absolutely crazy. But can we have all of these social media platforms and other ways that people are making money and trying to get messages out? Can people be deplatformed at the drop of a hat? And should they be? It's an interesting question. I don't know how far this goes. I've heard Nunez and and his complaints. And I've heard other people, particularly conservatives saying that their messages are being stopped or they've been deplatformed. And we've certainly seen that with Alex Jones and some others who Alex isn't accused of anything illegal. It just being a real jerk, I think is is kind of the bottom line for him. But is it again, interesting territory? I don't know. Ken, had the courts really settled any of this stuff yet? Ken 3:20 I think it's basic libel and slander law. I think if you're a public figure it's virtually impossible to be... Matt 3:22 But as it relates to like deplatforming and stuff like that, that's their company, they can do whatever they want with it. I mean, it's if they want to, they want to ban me for having brown hair or blue eyes. I mean, they could do that. Whenever. And perhaps it's not the wisest thing for them to do. And I think it opens a gigantic door for a competitor that isn't such a, you know, terrible company to actually operate. But you know, they want to do that they could do that. Craig 3:51 Yeah, yeah, I agree on that part. That's certainly the libertarian to me coming out for that. Anyhow, it was interesting, I thought I would ask the experts this morning. Ken 4:00 Well, talking about experts, since you're the expert guru in computers, are we going to have another Y2K thingamajiggy? Craig 4:09 Oh, this this is really weird. This one that hit me a few weeks ago and hit my inbox as it were. And Y2K of course, we have a problem with the rollover from a computer is able to use just a two digit year to figure out the time and elapsed time, you know, where they were just use, like 74, I wrote code that just choose the last two digits of the year back in the you know, in the 70s and and it's been going on for a long time. So everyone was worried what's going to happen when it turns from being able to issues 99 to zero, because they're always lower than 99. But it turns out most businesses had fixed the problems and none of these problems were were anything that would have been really earth shattering if they had to get at least not in most cases. Now we've got a security expert who about two weeks ago out at a security conference in San Francisco said that he's not going to fly on April 6 and the reason for that is that older GPS systems don't have the ability to handle dates past April 6 it's actually a specific time on April 6. But here's the problem the counters in the old GPS systems don't have enough digit so they are going to roll back to zero. And we look at what's happening right now with Boeing's jet, the 737 Max 8 right and that jet airliner. How long ago was that designed? Do you guys know? Matt  5:57 The 737? Craig 6:00 What is it? Is that it? Yeah, the Max 8. Matt 6:01 Yes, Max. Yeah, the 737 Max. I have no idea what it is. No, I can't even begin to claim that I have any idea Craig 6:07 Such a 50 year old design and what's been happening over the years is they've been making a minor changes kind of, you know, few changes of the time. So the whole jet airliner has not had to be retested. So for instance, right now they added this system that people are saying like be the problem could be the problem. Boeing saying it's more along the lines of the pilots weren't trained enough, they only had a few hundred hours of flight time. But inside these airplanes are systems that were designed 50 years ago. And so this expert is saying, Hey, listen, this could be a real problem because the GPSs from 20 years ago, cannot handle the rollover the guy's name is Bill Malik. He's a VP over Trend Micro which is a basically a security company and he's concerned because these GPS systems aren't just to use in things like airports and airplanes although I'm sure in pretty much every case the airplane have been updated, right? I'm I don't have a problem with flying on April 6 personally. But we also have these embedded systems that are used for their clock source for that signal. And they're using everything from traffic control systems through a computer systems. Some of the older ones, the bridges, some of the automatic bridges that we have in Maine, like one going down to New Hampshire that that goes up and down based on what the traffic is on the on the water below. A lot of these systems are based on using clocks from GPSs. So Ken we could have a Y2K type problem with anything with an older embedded GPS in them on April 6. And it does bring up the problem of, again, updating our software, our firmware, our hardware, you know, when was the last time you updated the software in your firewall in the router in your home. This statistics on the more or horrific. People just aren't updating them. So it brings it to light. And yeah, GPS could be a problem. And you might even have it with your car GPS, if you have an old GPS for your car. It might just plain old completely stopped working on April 6. Matt 8:38 And we're talking to Craig Peterson, our tech guru joins who us on Wednesdays at this time to go over what's happening in the world of technology. Craig, I had a little bit of a car issue a while back a couple weeks ago had to get somebody to basically break into my car and reprogram a fob which he was able to do by basically plugging in a little computer to my car. And about 30 seconds later, he had now taken over the entire security system and it was able to start it remotely and basically we had complete and total control over the car by plugging something in. Is my car a little vulnerable to being taken over by surreptitious evil people trying to steal it in some fashion, or maybe perhaps taking it over for other nefarious purposes? Craig 9:25 You know what kind of car I drive, right? Matt 9:29 Yeah, like an old one. Yeah. Craig 9:30 1980 Mercedes diesel okay. There is missing electronics on it. Yeah, actually, you are. And it's yet another reason to lock your car. Because if they get can gain access to that little computer port inside, many of the cars can be totally hacked. Now, the manufacturers are trying to keep that technology kind of secret. But man is it gotten out and it's in the hands of even people that change locks, you know, the fob you talked about. But we've got this week as a British firm. They're called Pentest Partners. And they had heard about some vulnerabilities with some of the smart alarms that people have been putting in their cars. So they did some testing. And they've come out with a warning and they're warning is that they found that the Viper Smart Start alarm Viper Smart Start alarm, which I'm sure many people here have in their cars get is great to start your car get warmed up in the wintertime and get into a nice warm car. But the Viper Smart Alarms as well as product from Pandora where they're making, not Pandora, the radio app that you might be using, but Pandora, the guys that make the smart alarms. Both of them are riddled with flaws. According to the report. That's a direct quote from them. And it turns out that the manufacturers had inadvertently exposed around 3 million cars to theft and users to hijack. Because what they can do is without even having access to that computer port in the car, they're able to get on remotely and do anything that that smart alarm could do and do it to your car. And it turns out even more than you think the smart alarm might be able to do just like with your car Matt where he could get in and do a whole bunch of different things inside your car. These can too and they found they could remotely hack the car that they could then from that car not only unlock it or start the engine but if you're driving down the highway in that car, they could control the accelerator so they could take you for ransom, floor the car have that car going full speed down the turnpike as fast as it could possibly go with you sitting behind the wheel unable to do anything about it you know. Burn outs, your brakes, etc. So there they did a live proof of concept demo, they could do geo-locate the target car using the Viper Smart Start account. Built in functionality. They set off the alarm so that the driver went out to investigate and stopped, activated the cars and mobilizer once it was stationary, remotely unlock the cars doors. They clone the key fob. They issued RS commands from a user's mobile phone. And even worse, they discovered this function in the Viper API that remotely turned off the cars engine. There, these devices can do a whole lot. So check your smart alarm, your smart remote start, see if it's vulnerable, what the vulnerabilities are not all of the vulnerabilities I mentioned are true for both of these alarms. But they have been shown in the past. We've seen Chrysler's be able to be taken over. Remotely driven off the road. But the hacker had to have access to the car first. Now we're seeing that some of these smart alarms have way more access than we thought they did. And could turn out to be very, very dangerous. Ken 13:15 We are talking to Craig Peterson, our tech guru. By the way you can go to https://CraigPeterson.com anytime you want to know anything about technology. Thank you, Mr. Peterson. We'll talk to you on next Wednesday at 7:38. Craig 13:27 Hey, take care. Gentlemen, I want to make one quick warning. Before I go. Google has now issued a warning to everyone to abandon Windows 7 right now. They say there's a major security problem with Windows 7 there. Google is advising you to upgrade to Windows 10. And this is a kernel vulnerability problem. Local privilege escalation something. Ken 13:55 I think I have Windows 7. Matt 13:57 I think I have Mac. Ken 13:58 But I have Windows on my Mac. Matt 14:00 That's old. Craig 14:00 Well, it's true for that too. So if you're still running Windows 7, if this isn't the siren call to upgrade, quote unquote, to Windows 10 do it now. But you might be better off and upgrade to a Mac. That's what I did. Ken 14:14  Yeah. But I have a Mac but have Windows on it. Craig 14:16 Yeah, but you're still gonna have to do it. You're gonna have to upgrade your Windows on your Mac that's living in the VM or the dual boot loader Ken 14:23 That's living in VM. That's where it's living. Craig 14:26 Yeah. Which is good that helps keep it separate but you're gonna have to upgrade it. This is bad, this is really bad. Ken 14:33 Okay, thanks for the warning.  Matt 14:35 Craig Peterson. Thanks a lot. Alright, we are going to take a quick break here are we not? Craig 14:41 Hey everybody. Plan is to be here  tomorrow and Friday as well with my security thing, you know, it's just a security thing. Well, how does it matter, right? So hopefully I'll be able to get those done today and we'll get those out. But it's stories of individuals and companies who have been hacked or who averted a hack, what happened? What they did? And what could have been done better about it?. So if you're enjoying those let me know. me@CraigPeterson.com. --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

How will Artificial Intelligence Change the Smart Buildings Industry? Dollar Driven Decision-Makers want Data into Insights, Insights into Action, and Action into Revenue. Will AI Deliver? CTN 305 Interviews: Show Notes Eric Stromquist: 00:00:00 Hi. Welcome to Control Talk Now, you’re Smart. Buildings video cast and podcast for the weekend in March 3rd., 2019 . We give you all the Smart Building and HVAC Controls News of the Week. and That’s right. Folks marches here. Episode 305 I am Eric Stromquist. , I am joined as usual by your co host and mine The Man, The Myth, the legend the one, the only Kenny Smyers the control man from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Kenny. you’ve been out sunbathing today, right? Ken Smyers: 00:00:26 No, I have not been sounds good. We got another two to four inches of snow again last night. And, February beat us up pretty bad, but we’re looking forward to the break in the weather. Eric Stromquist: 00:00:52 well, listen dude, we don’t have time to talk about that. We don’t have time to talk about much of anything. You know why we got two fabulous guests lined up. So, let’s get right to that. But before we do check out the post on controlled trends this week a big one, our friend Aaron Gorka, another next generation innovation podcasts dropped on Friday,, so be sure to check that out. Alot of good stuff on the on that which we’ll come to. Well you just have to go to the site to read it at controltrends.com Kenny with that, let’s introduce our first guest Ken Smyers: 00:01:27 Our next guest is the one and only Ken Sinclair, owner editor of automated buildings. And this month we’ve got something really interesting because I think Ken is going to help us differentiate between artificial intelligence and automated intelligence. Welcome to the show. Ken Sinclair. Ken Sinclair: 00:01:45 Welcome Ken! Thank you very much. ControllTrends. Always a pleasure to be here I appreciate it. Eric Stromquist: 00:01:51 I guess we should just start with you have to be intelligent before any of that’s relevant. Ken Sinclair: 00:01:59 Actually. Actually you’re quite right on, I’m one of the tweets. They actually picked that up and uh, they just pointed out that the, the, the intelligent part is us. We keep forgetting that we, I think we tried to imitate the artificial piece of artificial intelligence rather than the intelligent part. Uh, and it’s hard. It’s harder to be the intelligence. Ken Smyers: 00:02:20 No, I guess just going to say Ken, you know, it’s another great addition. Uh, just, uh, keep a common and is an amazing benefit to our industry that you’re, you’re able to grab all this new stuff coming out and start to make sense of it because when I read, whereas reading some of your, your, uh, entry, sir, in your first, uh, your editorial, when will we ever see a artificial or automated intelligence come into being? I mean, we close. I mean like when you didn’t have, are like, say Scown foundry and I had mentioned, you know, you know, you got, uh, somebody collecting information data. So we wrote a program, so you’re autonomize or automate the collection data, sends it somewhere Ken Smyers: 00:03:00 where it’s being processed by another basically program. So we took the humans out of the elements is going from, you know, machine information, but that back to computer machine information and it completes it. In your opinion, artificial intelligence or what does that sort of striving for is that we maybe try and redefine that a little better once it’s done and once it works and once it’s successful, I believe what it is is automated intelligence, right? And what we’ve done is we’ve learned how, and we probably did that through augmented intelligence and we may have used a artificial intelligence from computers to create that. But in the final analysis, it’s when it’s done, it’s actually a couple of lines of code in this machine and a couple of lines of code and that machine pushing information back and forth. So really all we’ve done is does that look any different than the DDC? Ken Sinclair: 00:03:59 Looper you know, it’s just, it’s just artificial or pardon me, automated intelligence. I keep getting my words mixed up here. The other thing is, uh, took a look at Wikipedia unwell. They define artificial intelligence and it’s totally clear that they’re confused as well. One of their, one of their best definitions is that they like is that artificial intelligence is what hasn’t been done. And I kind of liked that definition too, is every once in a while we hear somebody thinking about something that’s never been done and they actually believe that they can do it. And uh, once they do it, I think it changes. I think it is no longer artificial. I think it’s either automated and it’s either augmented, uh, it’s uh, you Eric Stromquist: 00:04:49 Ken, you’re going to go down in the history books for this cause Descartes said, I think therefore I am. And now I think you’ve just rephrase that to I think therefore I am artificial. Ken Sinclair: 00:05:00 Well actually there’s a good one. Whoever, whoever chose the acronym for for this, this broad method of having machines out think us and they called it artificial, you know, and it’s like wow, artificial has never been a positive word. I don’t think. I don’t think it’s a, it’s an adjective that we, you know, you look real artificial. I think it’s optimistic thinking on our part. But you’ve told us a story right before we turned the recorder on about the, the two machines and the camera. Will you tell our audience that story? Cause I think that is very interesting now. Okay. What kind of goes along like this is a, as we start to automate intelligence, we, we have two machines. The first machine, uh, is, uh, is uh, a ring. Somebody’s doorbell and it, it sees the person walking up and re prerecorded it. And when they push the button and it sends that prerecording to another machine than the other machine determines whether it’s going to allow that person in. Ken Sinclair: 00:06:02 And there’s all this data going back and forth. But when the artificial intelligence machines, uh, they start to, so the decisions are no longer made by people. The two machines, they get together and they say, these people are so dumb. Why did they bother generating a picture and sending the file when in fact, all we really need is the data. Because we don’t look at, we don’t know what a picture looks like, getting way, we just know what the data looks like. So we see that face. There’s a Pi data pattern. When we see that data pattern, that’s what we let the person in. So all of a sudden this gets really scary because they can do stuff faster, quicker and better than us. Uh, so that’s sort of getting into what I think artificial intelligence is, is when the machines start mocking us. What’s, I think they may be doing a bit now. Eric Stromquist: 00:06:51 Well, but Ken, I mean this is what Ilan Musk and some others have really gotten up in arms about and concerned about and I, and he’s a hell of a lot smarter than I am, but okay, so let’s take that same conversation between the two machines and instead of, they’re so dumb. They got it. You know, why do we don’t need a picture too? They’re so dumb. Why do we need them? So let’s just, we got him in the building over there was talk to our friend, the building automation system and building x, and we’ll tell building automation says to lock all the doors and turn the heat on and override the bypass on the boiler. So blows up. That’s one where we could get rid of, right? I mean, this is Ken Smyers: 00:07:25 Guys, you know, there’s several, there’s several books on this and I’ll tell you what, I’m reading one right now and it’s by a Daniel Sora as it is exactly that. It’s the Damon. So the guy passes away and as he leaves behind a, a giant Damon that runs and competes against the top minds in the world where it’s based on a game. So your concept, can I, I’m digging it and here’s why. I looked up their artificial intelligence and it basically just as anything that’s not human. So you have human intelligence that’s, that’s an eight to us that’s coming out of great minds like yours and Eric’s and, and some of mine. But the, Eric Stromquist: 00:08:01 these are such thing as a dumb ass machine, right? Ken Smyers: 00:08:05 When anything is not human is considered to be non human or artificial. So, but I think what we’re seeing, um, and, and again, I think we move into it because of exactly what you just said there. The data going on so fast with the recognition a week, last week, our big thrust, uh, on controlled trans was we did a shot, a recognition. So you had to ballistic sensors and things that could move so much faster. It makes so quick notifications. They can, human errors couldn’t differentiate between shot a gun or I’m sorry, a bullet being fired versus a backfire from a vehicle where the odd, the sensor could distinguish it immediately threw the ballistics through the, um, the sound acoustics and, and the, um, the flash she gives and notify something in three seconds, which takes a human that they’re not sure what they heard. They don’t know what to do, they’re stymied or whatever. Ken Smyers: 00:08:56 So that disbenefit, uh, is, is exactly, I think too, it’s, it’s an artificially gained intelligence where we did, we don’t have the capabilities in Nate Dar, so I’ll, we, we turn it over to our, our algorithms that are powered by Ip conductivities and Zip. We, did we get the benefit of this artificially, uh, you know, provided intelligence that is, or isn’t the bad guy or is, or is it the good guy? Whatever. So anyhow, great, great, great subject. Eric Stromquist: 00:09:26 No, no, no but, but, but I just want to get one step further. Kenny and Kevin Hart had a chance to listen to last week’s episode, but you know, Roger, even I can Honeywell come up with this sort of, you know, using those centers and then incorporating them so that if something does happen, you know, the first responders know exactly where, where to go and it can save a lot of lives. But Kenny, you know, the next step of this is they’re not going to send first responders. You can just send a drone in there. A drone is going to go into school and track those guys down or are bad people down just like that. So again, it’s very ironic that a one level we get very, very much, much safer and everything has a lot more convenient. But on another level, we’re really open ourselves up to some huge vulnerabilities here. Eric Stromquist: 00:10:11 If Elon Musk and some of these other folks are right, it’s okay. I’m not worried about gas cause I’m already, you know, Elon Musk has got this deal. He’s already started this company where they got the chips for the brains. And I’ve already, I’m on the, I’m on the waiting list for that and if it gets too bad with the machines, I got a ticket tomorrow so I’ll be out of here. But maybe I’ll go back and spinning off of Ken’s comment is that his definition of artificial is anything that doesn’t involve us. And I think, uh, I’m not sure about you, but I’m not sure I want to talk about anything that doesn’t involve us. So that’s what happened back to automated intelligence and action camp. But the other component has to be the self learning aspect of it too, right? I mean that has to filter in whether it’s automated or harder official that he can begin to learn right. With the cell phone in Algorithms. That’s gotta be a piece of it. Ken Sinclair: 00:11:02 Thanks Ken. But I’m not sure that, I don’t see that as a, that’s again, as an automated intelligence is basically, it’s just learning, learning how to better automate cause another perception, the way you look at that. Anyway, it’s early days. Um, the, uh, I don’t know if you caught the end of one of my articles there and then I talked about awful made it buildings and uh, uh, we were, we went through eight, we went through a period, it’s actually a 2002 article that I included a linking to. And uh, what happened with, uh, this was as we hit the web. So we went through the DDS, we went through awful, made it building several times. We went through awful, made it buildings. In the early days of DDC we had all these DDC systems that didn’t really work, but there so exciting that we kept on pursuing the, we actually figured out how to make those things work. And then we hit the web and we started getting a whole bunch of stuff as a web controlling MREs, the DDC controller. We have those. And I don’t see this as any different. We’re exactly in the same spot, except we’ve got this intelligence automation that’s Kinda falling from the sky on us. And, uh, we’re, we’re into another period of awful made it buildings until we get this straightened out. Eric Stromquist: 00:12:21 Hmm. What do you see some of the possible headwinds? I mean in terms of the problems, when you say awful, awful, made it, I mean obviously we went from pneumatics to DDC, there was a learning curve and things sorta had to, to get worked out. Do you see anything different with on the automated Ken Sinclair: 00:12:38 controls now it’s going to go faster if there’s going to be more people involved in it because of the iot industry. And ultimately I think, I think, but the problem is, is the uh, uh, Ben Ben, back to what Ken said, is it artificial is defined as things that don’t involve us. And I think if somebody, if we turn loose a machine, it’s not going to run the building the way we want, whether it, whether it attacks us or, uh, even if it doesn’t attack this as even tries to run it to the best of it’s knowledge, it’s going to need some guidance and what we need to learn. So what I see the, uh, intelligent automation phase era, that’s the year I think we’re in right now is we need to learn more about what we can do with this technology. How much should we can machine learn, uh, because we got to learn how to walk before we can allow AI to run our buildings. Ken Smyers: 00:13:42 Well, I, I agree with you and again, it’s always fun to take things to a, you know, an immediate, uh, you know, the word, the farthest point from, from reality, you know, or likelihood. But, um, in the, um, in your march edition, you also, we have another, a great article and great background to some really heady thought, but actually it gives us the, the nuts and bolts of it from a sit. How young thing again and, and, and how, you know, she takes the example of autonomous vehicle and how it would, it does, it reduces the risk of life. It reduces, you know, allows, it frees humans to do more things. Uh, you know, that the car can do that. It alleviates you from doing work. It’s, you know, it’s like a, the amazing thing the locomotive did versus the horse and buggy thing. So she has a great article in there. Um, what, what, what did she bring to you as far as the, you know, her insight using the autonomous vehicle? A analogy to our buildings. I mean, it’s a great article, but I thought, you know, what was your synopsis of that? Ken Sinclair: 00:14:42 I summarize, summarized it in a, in a tweet this morning and the fact that we were pushing back and forth some stuff and it, uh, I said that, uh, you know, the having your driverless vehicles running into our buildings I think is really good stuff because this whole atonomous side of the automated vehicle has whole bunch of social issues. It has a whole bunch of quick control things you were talking about. There’s no way that you know, that some of this stuff can be controlled so quick, but, and that’s of course, the second part of our theme that we were talking a theme is the automated intelligence with autonomous interactions. I don’t know that we’ve really thought of of it in two pieces like that. Here’s the intelligence of what it is we’re going to do. And then as soon as we do it, there’s a reaction, let’s put in another control loop to control the reaction. Ken Sinclair: 00:15:38 And I think if we look at the auto industry, they’ve got their spending scabs of bucks on this and they’re moving through. So I think we need to kind of try and understand better what they’re doing. Ironically enough for articles this month or right on our nose talking about, uh, what they’re doing in Stanford there. And, uh, the young girl on energy prediction is amazing. It picks up on last month and fills right in and she’s particularly well spoken and she’s speaks to it. I think what we also have to, you know, get used to, as people are going to call it artificial intelligence or call it augmented intelligence or automated intelligence and, uh, we’re going to be getting used to the fact that maybe it’s just best we call it AI and then substitute our own, uh, uh, okay. Okay. Different definition of that connotative definition. Yeah, that’s, that’s, yeah, I think you’re right. Yeah. Well, okay. Got It. Cool. Eric Stromquist: 00:16:41 Let me hop in real quick, if you don’t mind, Kenny, before we get to the next article, I think one of your buddies is responsible for all these annoying phone calls I’m getting from these chat bots. Oh those damn things are talkative as hell. But uh, but speak a bit if you would, because it seems like we might be going from a Gui graphical user interface, you s C U I, which you’ve been talking about for a while. But now I see it in black and white and I connecting the dots are going inadvertently can you’re responsible for all these damn calls. I’m getting Ken Sinclair: 00:17:19 no doubt, no doubt. My only defense is as they all, they all sit that they all come with an autonomous interaction. And the autonomous interaction is as if you don’t ever answer the phone or say hello. They won’t, they don’t do anything. So if you actually can out think them. So if you, uh, when it comes, you get one of these chat bot calls. If you don’t say anything and nobody says anything for about a half minute or something, you can just hang up cause it’s no person. So anyway, uh, the, yeah, the, you see, what do we call it? User interface, text voice. The more, so we’re seeing this, I mean it’s running rampant now with the speakers and all kinds of devices that actually have, uh, these, Ken Sinclair: 00:18:08 the Hay googles and the Alexa’s built right into them. And I think we’re going to see more and more of that. And now what I think the, the, the conversational user interfaces is that now devices, we’ll start talking like that and we can start using whatsapp, WeChat, uh, ims soldier and in some of these things. And actually, uh, the very quick segue is that we could actually, uh, you know, text to turn the lights on. The big advantage of that is it keeps a record of all of the commands you can, you can, you can say to your wife, you turned the heat up. And she said, no, she didn’t. And she says, it shows that Santa Time you put it up five degrees. So how that conversation goes, that damn machine is obviously wrong. Ken, you’re not going to win that argument or call my lawyer. Actually, I was going to bring that up. I was going to bring that up early when, when Ken was talking about how, how carefree these machines, good thinking. I think that was the biggest single thing is that the machines can move without lawyers. So that’s the thing that mobilizes us all. Well there then, you know what, there might be a silver lining after all I’m ever my friend. Eric Stromquist: 00:19:27 Ken do you have any more question for Ken? Ken Smyers: 00:19:30 No, no, no. I just, again, that does so much to talk about every time we were bringing something up. So again, it’s a collection of jewels I think, you know, because uh, you know, going over the march articles and how they come together, like you say, it’s like a phenomenon. You started at subject and all of a sudden something provides, you know, it’s like willing it into being like you get this critical mass and all of a sudden people were also thinking that way and just that part from Sydney. Uh, the article from us sit on a jump. The, that contributions inside that article or immense because it talks about, you know, the, you know, the energy, the automatic provisioning of, of, of, you know, in other words, if we had a limited amount of energy on the grid and we had sustained the most important critical buildings and whatever, uh, you know, we’re going to one day rely on that to be done, you know, through uh, I just watched a presentation on, on a new drive coming from Siemens and this drive is already smart grid ready. Ken Smyers: 00:20:29 In other words, it’s ready to go to the next level, uh, and not go into the network would go right to the cloud and put VFDs on, on an application, uh, and it can alleviate a btu meters because the, the VFD can calculate the flow and see how many BTUs you’re using saving of Dagon. Holy Moly. This is, this is another thing that you were talking about right before we have our session here. I listened to this and I’m thinking this is getting really, really interesting because if you could put this artificial intelligence or augmented intelligence or automated intelligence to work, we are going to become a greener planet quicker. We’re going to be able to use this to make our take the best steps forward. But you know, I think would you said true that if somebody doesn’t answer the phone, guess what? Nothing happens. No, no artificial or augmented intelligence occurs because people don’t start using this technology in buildings. We’re not getting anything done. Eric Stromquist: 00:21:31 Well yeah, but you’re saying it’s reactive now, meaning you have to initiate this step, but Ken Smyers: 00:21:36 pretty easy. Did you have to make this step, you have to take the investment, you have to invest, you have to invest in technology, Eric Stromquist: 00:21:40 right? No, you have to invest in technologies. But would your, your point, which is a very valid one. We like your, Ken’s point about the following. If you just don’t say anything, right, it doesn’t, it doesn’t activate, you know, the program. Yeah. But, and I think that’s kind of a very calm, you know, good thought. But then eventually it will be where they’ll just be proactive. They’ll figure it out, west cans and clear again. I’m just going to start damn talking cause I know he’s not going to answer first and then, uh, then we’ll start sending pictures or something to you. That’d be crazy. But Ken Sinclair: 00:22:13 I think this might be the, the edge of the automated automated buildings and automated interfaces and stuff that we need to work out. And I think that’s why we have to be involved in this too, as I, yeah, I’m not sure that artificial intelligence is going to be able to figure that out and come up with any better solution. Uh, what it would say is it’s a solution we don’t want to hear is don’t ever talk to a human. They’re just, they’re just impossible. Only talk to machines. You know? It’s funny you say that because, Eric Stromquist: 00:22:45 you know, I was thinking while you were talking about what’s the definition of artificial intelligence, you know, Kenny had a good one. You had a good one. And I was going to say that, well, uh, you’d have to have an original thought to not be artificial intelligence, but then I think about it, I’m not sure. Most humans have many original thoughts either. You know, there’s some of us who do, but it’s a, it really is fascinating. And then what I’m really interested, forget the buildings. I am serious about this, putting the brain, the chip and the brain. I mean, have an augmented intelligence on board connected to your mind. And Musk has been working on that. So it’s literally, you know, you’re not gonna have to go to school and, and what are you just going to buy the, uh, the chip for American history and you’ll know everything you need to know about it? Ken Sinclair: 00:23:30 Actually, uh, I think, uh, as, I was really pleased with Theresa’s article this month, and, uh, I think it came partly from her going up and spending some time with the folks at bedrock and in Detroit and watching what they’re doing up there. She, she came out and she’s picked up on this theme and she calls it the community of practice in building automation. Uh, you can actually even drop the building automation because it’s basically, I hadn’t seen it so clearly as she depicts it, that we all belong to a community of practice and both of your supply companies are, they are communities of practice and basically that’s what you’re selling. Then that’s your, you’re really your value and automated buildings is a community of practice. People who actually believe in somewhat a common belief of, you know, of how we might automate buildings. We also have things like backnet, which is a community of practice. Ken Sinclair: 00:24:27 We have Niagra and basically what’s happening is they’re becoming the building blocks of our industry. And this is how we build stuff is uh, when you find a community of practice that you haven’t, haven’t been exposed to, you guys are all excited and then you figure out how can we make that community of practice part of our community of practice and that increases your value. That’s a lot of what I, I think we all do is, is basically share this information. The advantage of attaching yourself to a community of practice is it comes complete with resources. People, people who understand that and we need to keep creating those and, and basically distributing that information. So anyway, I think that’s going to be our next direction. That’ll not, that won’t be the theme for, um, April because the theme for April is going to be cybersecurity. Speaker 4: 00:25:25 But halfway through it I’m going to write an article on the community of practice and just kind of tie all of these communities together. And if you just let your mind role and think how important, how important are all those things to your business, your everyday business. I mean, you could say you could, you could almost go down your drawers there, your La Aisles, and you say this belongs in the back net. This is a Nagra. This is a Johnson. This is a, you know, all of them are communities of practice that you’re doing it. What’s your big claim to fame? One of your big claims to fame is that you crossover many lines of a communities of practice. Ken Smyers: 00:26:04 Hmm. Not sure when I read that I had this word Papa, they kept coming up with that was, or your collaboratorium. In other words, you know, the, the thing that I think I’ve witnessed or we’ve all witnessed, but in particular is how quickly certain things get done when there’s that collaboration or does community of practice where you overlay all these experts and all this, all these, you know, leading, uh, you know, uh, pioneers because we’re talking about three things right there that we’re are all articles, project haystack, biennial, haystack connects conferences coming up from San Diego, mid May, uh, Co controls con con a skull, Scott Cochran. He’s got a great spring Ken Smyers: 00:26:44 conference coming up where the, uh, you know, Cochran is going to share a great deal of information, um, you know, regarding new technologies and things that the, uh, you know, it’s very important. So yeah, I did that community practice. It makes total sense what you’re saying would tree says, but um, can you see it? I’ve shared it that she went back to this Nydia and got approval to reproduce this graphic. But if you Kinda, if you kind of just read all the little, uh, you know, things that are written around there, that’s what you do every day, right? Listening, challenging buildings, sharing everything that’s on that thing is basically what your companies do to pull together your community, give and get support. Yup. Yup. So, uh, you know, just it’s, it’s kind of, I dunno, we used to, you know how you have to filter because there’s so much out there. Uh, the malty general generational engagement. So there’s our young guns. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s kind of amazing that, that this is kind of a map of who we are and where we came from. Um, and I think we need to work more on this map so we can better understand what I might be talking about. Cause I probably don’t understand what automated intelligence might be. I think what we have to do is kind of maybe do an intelligence inventory. Eric Stromquist: 00:28:14 You know, Ken, listen, listen, you’re missing the whole point here. Look, I’ll have my machine, my machine call, uterine machine and they a lunch and figure all this stuff out. We’re not going to have to communicate anymore. We just have the machines. We’ll have the community of practice. That’s, that’s where you’re going with this, right? Ken Sinclair: 00:28:30 Uh, well I dunno, look, look at, look at all the touchy feely things on the, on the docket there. Yeah. That’s one thing that machines aren’t y’all like, you know, like you’re saying caring, healing and listening or new superpowers. Yeah. Eric Stromquist: 00:28:46 I’m going to tell you some, most of it you have to ask yourself a question is empathy, which is what all those things are. Is that a learned skill? Cause I told you this on a show before when I was in southern California about two years ago, the debate on the radio, because they just come out with the sex Bot and they were teaching them artificial intelligence that can be more empathetic and the debate on the radio as a view if you had sex with the sex bot where you cheating and so it’s, you know, it’s, I maybe you think about it. I think empathy is learned. We teach our children how to be empathetic. I think I’m at least, I think that we could debate that. Whether that’s an innate human quality or dress up. We just learn when we get culturized by growing up by our parents and going to school. It is the question, then we’ll be able to program it into the machines and there’ll be more empathetic than we are. Ken Smyers: 00:29:36 Well, to Ken’s point, I think that’s both. I think that’s what you can’t put inside the artificial intelligence or machines is you can’t put Ken Smyers: 00:29:42 that inate stuff. And you know, you have different psychologists saying different things, but we all come from the same well of consciousness. You know, we pass through a w what’s his name, your different Freud. Another colleague came through with young where we all with this guy, Joe Campbell travels the world, hundred 50 countries and how 150 different countries come with the same basic belief system. You know, about how you got here and where you’re going afterwards, you know. But to your point, I think, um, the, uh, subjects that we’re talking about is, is that this thing almost looks like a 1970. Remember how we did the we generation iGeneration we generation or the me Generation Innovation is almost looks like our whole concepts or taken a different direction where it used to be individuals, there were the major players in the industry and they dictated science stuff and now we’re seeing all this technology come in and it’s just dumping all these new possibilities. Ken Smyers: 00:30:41 And so this community of practice to me is an extension of of basically the thing you did with the collaboratorium. I’ve never seen so many people be willing to share so much what used to be like a sensitive information or proprietary information, but they want to get something done in order for them to get their agenda done quicker. They collaborate with somebody that’s also doing something better than they are and instead of each trying to create your own wheel, they’re putting together a, you know, this, this, this community and it’s an amazing thing because Hastac is it? We’re going to talk about haystack some at some point and, and we just have to celebrate what they did because that’s what they did. They did this, this amazing linkage of, of a lot of people that couldn’t really define how they were going to get there. Somebody laid down a map and then people contributed to it. And next thing you know, you’ve got a yellow brick road. Eric Stromquist: 00:31:29 Well listen, I want to, Ken, I want to follow up, uh, on your last episode, uh, El or semi last, last month’s edition because you know what, you had become quite a cult hero amongst the young young guns in our industry for, for numerous reasons. But the big one is a, and I’m going to ask you to expand on this is, you know, when you become, when you’re disrupted disruption. And so one of the questions we got from our community has asked, can you know, talk about the process of disrupting disruption. I mean, how would I do that? Because you know, you’ve seriously the young, I mean we were bringing in it kind of like a hero to these folks. Now again, how do we disrupt disruption? Well, I think it’s interesting once you learn how to grow younger, which is a, is a skill that takes a bit and you basically, Ken Sinclair: 00:32:27 yeah, Ken Sinclair: 00:32:27 bring these guys on his trusted advisors and start to understand and try to get inside their heads are at least closer to it. You understand this whole what the significance Ken Sinclair: 00:32:40 of being a digital native is. I mean, we’re looking at this from such a wrong way. You know, all our, we keep going off on these tangents. They don’t even think about that. They grew up with all this stuff falling on them and they understand they had been, don’t have the fear of the machine that we do because they understand the machine, they understand data that give it the data. We take the data away, you know, and uh, I think they just see it in a completely different light. So for them disrupting disruption, although they do it to themselves as well because they’re there a way ahead on the front. Some of the stuff they’re disrupting is totally amazing. I barely understand. But our disruption is easy. It’s easy to disrupt us and to disrupt the disruption is, is uh, is easy as well because our industry is slow to move. Ken Sinclair: 00:33:32 And, uh, we’re actually starting to see some of this stuff coming. We’re actually seeing, uh, you know, wifi sensors. We’re seeing the wire disappearing in our buildings and more, more devices, more it devices starting to appear. So that’s, that’s very disruptive. But it inside of it comes a gazillion opportunities and we’re getting where we had a, like a very small slice of the industry, things that were involving, now we’re involving integrator piece of the industry. So yeah, I don’t know. That answer wasn’t very good answer. I was kinda hoping you’d say something like, we know we got to kill the machines or something like that. You know, that’s what I was going for, Matt. Ken Smyers: 00:34:20 Well, I’ll tell you that again. You got an amazing job to kill the kids first day. Cause that’s the, they’re, they’re, they’re becoming closer and closer to these machines and they’d rather talk to the machines and us. I saw somebody put a, uh, I don’t know where it was, linkedin or somewhere, but it had all these kids in this beautiful museum in front of one of the most classic art and they’re all single child was looking up at the art, uh, and they were on their phones, iPhones or smart devices or whatever. And it just really caught it. Oh know to be in the middle of it, you know, our world thinking that we had, we had put these things on the wall to the epitomize the highlights of humankind and our loftiest, you know, artists and these kids just totally not interested. And so we’ll accept it. It’s funny cause sometimes the guys looking at it and what they’ll tell you is that’s not really the original. The original is in Spain, in the small town, this is a copy. Ken Sinclair: 00:35:21 We’re always checking facts. You assume that sometimes they’re, you know, they’re doing something different, but sometimes they’re just, they’re just way ahead of you. And lucky. Now, I’ll tell you what I learned my lesson and I, when we were talking about an old timer, walks into the office, a Johnson controls had a uh, a, a couple years ago, Eric and I were at it and they explained the mistake. They’d invested so much money in recruiting the top a young guns that could possibly get their hands on. Uh, and, and then they were losing them after the second year and it all boiled down to their boss and, and the one classic example they gave through where they had the outbrief thing and the people had to, could, could hear what they were being accused of or the bosses criticism from the young person’s perspective. And here it was that the guy who thought they were all screwing around on their smartphones and they were actually doing work and research because the companies that their, their, their, their computer system was so slow and lagging and they had so many security still at that they couldn’t get the information they needed to complete the project that was due. Ken Smyers: 00:36:20 So they were actually doing double time using their own device to get some information that the computers that they were given to is their work. Computers couldn’t perform and be, he looked outside, he said, everybody’s playing with their phones or playing games. There was an assumption that they were screwing off and here they were very, you know, professionally you’re trying to get the Dang job done. And they were being, you know, uh, there were being hindered by, anyhow, we, you’ve got a couple of good articles, this thing by Marc p talk and it’s got a picture and it says, you know, the built environment has been changing drastically, but what, what does mark say he says is two nights, 2019 the year of truth for the built environment. And he has all these questions. He has, well, two nights, 2019 be the truth that our dialogue senators around the proven technologies. So what’d you think about that? And it’s like the 10 commandments of, of the built space. Ken Smyers: 00:37:14 Yeah, that’s good. I’ve been, I’ve included in my article a link to it. Uh, it’s super mark. Mark always is very succinct and being able to kind of pull out around, uh, and it’s okay. So maybe this is the truth of artificial intelligence that I’m talking about is that I’m saying maybe, maybe we don’t want to call it that. Maybe we want to call it art or a automated intelligence. And I don’t know, sometimes by just calling something different, you start to discussions and I think that’s what I really want to do is start the discussion. We can, I think you’ve got an add on. Your name needs to be automated buildings and intelligence. How’s that? That’s right. Well the other problem is if I didn’t call it automated intelligence yeah then that’d be obsolete. I’d have to, I’d have to, how I got it. There was two choices. I either had to change automated buildings.to artificial buildings.com and I don’t think I would’ve sold with it after 20 years. Automated building Sterns to artificial buildings. So we had to, had to go to automated intelligence. I like that. I do automated versus our, I don’t like artificial either. Not to think about it cause you know, it always meant something unnecessarily sinister but not necessarily Ken Smyers: 00:38:31 as, as as you know, as firing as it could be. Artificial means that’s made up and, and, and not genuine. And so maybe we will help the mate, the next group of solution providers change it from artificial intelligence to automated intelligence. Eric Stromquist: 00:38:46 So Ken, uh, listen to about march of March issue is out automatedbuildings.com, be sure to check the I can, would you be able to hang around a bit longer and talk with us with our next guest?. Okay. Ken. So where are you going to be traveling this spring where it looks like we might be crossing paths a little bit. Okay. Well we’re off to Detroit and early May to control con we was just before this conference call, I was talking with Scott and the bedrock, a Joe from bedrock and uh, exciting stuff happening there. Actually. He, he just come back from Korea and some going to be some amazing stuff. I could tell you, but I’d have to kill you, but don’t, don’t, don’t do that. We’re going to be there too. So it’s going to, okay, I told you today I’d have to kill you. But Scott was Scott. Speaker 4: 00:39:32 It was Scott in Korea or a the gift. Actually, Scott Scott was a fighting icebergs and a theory coming out of the lake or something like that. He was driving in his car, asked for video, and he took his phone and held it up against the windshield and told me I was driving. So, so listen to, you can still go there. Are there links both on automated buildings.com site and control trends, uh, hey, be get a chance to go to this conference is fantastic. And uh, the next big conference had coming up is haystack and our next guest is going to be able to talk a bit about that, Kenny. So how about introducing him? Ken Smyers: 00:40:07 I’d love to, in fact, um, I’d like to introduce Ruairi Barnwell. He is a group principal at d l r and the DLR group, uh, was recently recognized that the controlled trends awards because they won the project haystack award. And that’s a very, very exciting thing. And, uh, we’re very happy to welcome to the show, Rory Barnwell. Welcome to show Roy everyone. Good to see you again, buddy. Ruairi Barwell: 00:40:32 Hey guys, how’s it going? Great to be here. Eric Stromquist: 00:40:34 Good to see you too. You were on episode 222 and uh, I’ll always remember that it was great, lively conversation and, uh, could you give a sort of a refresher and an update on what’s going on with DLR group? Ruairi Barwell: 00:40:48 Sure. Well, thanks again guys. Really excited to be back on again. Um, I guess just to recap on DLR group who we are and what we do. And so we’re a large design firm. Um, you know, 1200 people, 30 offices around the, around the globe, um, architects and engineers, um, you know, our core American sectors or education, workplace justice and civic, uh, hospitality. We’re actually the largest education design firm in the world. So that leads us down some pretty interesting paths. Um, so yeah, that’s kind of a, we’re busy. I’m sitting here in Chicago right now and looking out the window and, uh, all the cranes and all new construction going on. So, yeah, Ruairi Barwell: 00:41:32 we’re trying to make it, Ken Smyers: 00:41:36 yeah. Good stuff. All right, well, we’re really happy to see you down in Atlanta and, uh, recognize you right away. And we have to say hello before the show actually gotten underway. But, uh, you wonder, pretty impressive. Tell us about the project Haystack Award and how you guys won that. Ruairi Barwell: 00:41:54 Well, it was quite an honor. We’ve obviously been big believers in haystack and you know, practitioners, the haystack methodology and what we do and how we, you know, collect and, uh, organize and analyze data to our, our smart building a praxis are amongst monitoring based commissioning. Uh, you know, how we, what we call building optimization. That’s the practice I lead. Um, so yeah, it was quite an honor, right? I mean, well, the night that was a controlled times Lord. Eric Stromquist: 00:42:36 Yeah. So an engineer and designer standpoint as well as a, you know, an energy optimizer and buildings for our community might not know. What do you see the advantage is to project haystack? Ruairi Barwell: 00:42:49 Um, well, again, for us, you know, a large part of what we do within DLR group, uh, our building optimization practice is, I mean, it’s just dealing with data and at the end of the day, um, we’re answering the try to answer the same questions as everyone else in our community is what do we do with that data? How do we make it actionable? How do we organize it, you know, create some actionable insights from that data. So what are, we’re trying to optimize the energy use of a million square foot commercial office in downtown Chicago or, you know, a college campus in the suburbs. MMM. It’s, you know, it’s the same drive trying to answer the same questions as everyone else. Ken Smyers: 00:43:35 What are your clients asking for now? What are your types of clients and what do they ask? So you’re the largest provider of services to the education world. What are they asking for? Ruairi Barwell: 00:43:46 Yeah, I mean, as an example, you know, we’re working with large school districts here in Chicago across the country. Um, you know, going and getting ready to go out for a large bond referendums, you know, they’re trying to answer some big questions like, are we, uh, you know, how are we, you know, here in Chicago, we’ve got a couple of districts going out for $180 million contract for, and then down in Texas, they don’t, they’re close to a billion. I mean, figuring out Texas, right? But we’re all trying to answer the same questions. You know, are we, should we build new versus renovation, throwing good money after bad, you know, how are the buildings performing and should we invest in these existing buildings? Should we decommission them, build a new, know you were high performing buildings and, um, you know, they’re, they’re asking the same questions. You know, how, you know, how do we benchmark buildings? Ruairi Barwell: 00:44:40 You know, I think we’re, we’re recognized as a, as an industry and this community in particular that, you know, energy benchmarking alone. There’s not a, it’s not a good indicator of how well, or poorly performing. So we’re starting to look at the other key performance indicators that, you know, how is, how, how, how well a building is performing. I in indoor environmental quality tracking, indoor air quality and thermal comfort of occupants, Acoustic Comfort, visual comfort, your user functionality. Now these are, these are things that we’re trying to tie real data to versus, you know, we’ve, we’ve talked about him, I think this conversation has been pretty mainstream for the last couple of Ken Smyers: 00:45:22 the metrics. Are you able to provide additional metrics to improve the understanding of how important those, those things that you had mentioned, lighting, acoustics, I mean, does that, does that really have a profound impact on the educational environment or is that more, is that hard? Ruairi Barwell: 00:45:38 No, no, absolutely. I think we’re getting past, we’ve made a very focused decision to kind of try and there’s so much noise and marketing, you know, yeah. Spills everyone to call them. Um, we’ve already focused on trying to get some good case studies and trying to, you know, for example, in a couple of cool projects you’re working on right now we’re doing a large project with the GSA. We’re part of the Harvard School of Public Health. Um, it’s doctor Joe Allen’s group, um, where we’re trying to evolve their post occupancy evaluation process. Um, really tried to add another dimension to, um, to their, you know, what they’re, they’re trying to fill it up and evidence based design library so they can continually iterate there. We’re working directly with their workplace, um, uh, workplace global workspace leader and um, you know, adding in that realtime indoor air quality, indoor environmental quality is more than just the air quality and all the occupants satisfaction. Ruairi Barwell: 00:46:44 Um, putting real metrics to that and tying that back to work or productivity. So that’s again, I think that’s been a manager in conversation now for, for a couple of years where I’m, I’m pretty excited with the crossover between, you know, worker productivity, the workplace, um, you know, getting some proper metrics for that to education. So now we’re starting to see equal amounts of research being done and if not a little more now at the moment with, um, you know, students, you know, student achievement, you know, how does the, out of the class, how did the before, how does the performance of the built environment, the classroom impacts a student’s learning ability, you know, the cognitive of a, of a child brain. How that, um, how, you know, is is the classroom ventilated enough? Is it too hot, too cold or the acoustics poor, the lights too harsh or too damn, you know, we’re working in a school districts that have, you know, kind of okay lighting retrofits that were driven by energy, not so much the, you know, the function of the classroom. Um, and, and again, and try and tie that back to, you know, how engaged the student is and ultimately student achievement. And I think we’re looking at more or less the same ties as a, as far as on the workplace side and an office and productivity. Ruairi Barwell: 00:48:11 Okay. Well, uh, honestly we’re in the middle of, uh, of working on this GSA project is ongoing. It’s on the boards right now. That’s why it’s top of my mind. But he’s kind of, well, I’m, I’m excited about. Um, so I would say look for the, I think this would be the third iteration of the cog effect study from Harvard School of Public Health. Um, and so that, you know, that’s only going to get, there’s just going to be more iterations of that until, you know, I think, okay, we’ve withdrawn it’s common sense, you know. Um, I think that we’re just trying to put real data to it. Um, you know, another project I’m really excited about, we’re working with Chicago public schools and the third largest school district in the country where, you know, there, uh, there, uh, exploring an initiative for a lot of textile and that’s zero school and you know, we can have a, it’s really easy. You haven’t that Sarah School, right? Turn off the light board up the windows, tell the kids the worst, some colts and light some candles. You know, we want a second, but Marcy sophisticated approach than that. Um, so we’re, uh, you know, using the same data gathering, collecting, collecting data, organizing it, analyzing it, modeling it for future retrofits, you know, trying to show, uh, I’m not, uh, basically a roadmap for how can we get to the zero? What is it feasible? I mean, that’s the question we’re trying to answer. Ken Smyers: 00:49:51 Amazing work bringing our, bringing emotions to buildings. In other words, we’re taking the things like comfy that began way back when, where it was giving people with smart devices the opportunity to interface with building automation system to get some kind of an immediate response if they needed air conditioning or heating, whatever. And as soon as they were company, they hit a button, say coffee. So Ken has done a lot of studies and a lot of work on it. Can, I know you got to have a good question for Rory regarding these, these exact studies because isn’t this the chance that they, the, the emotional side of a building can be exposed through these new retrofit new programs? Ken Sinclair: 00:50:29 I think he has an excellent start. And actually I’d like to start by applauding what, uh, what he’s doing. And his company is certainly for a major consultant to embrace haystack and, uh, the other health parameters of buildings and put them in their lead is, is significant than I think he is definitely an example to, oh, a lot of consultants who are, are kind of hiding, hiding their head from all of this. And uh, so he’s well on his way and as the exposes all his data, he is going to be able to interpret the emotion of a building. I’ll be better than anybody. And uh, the fact it’s going to be in haystack standards, uh, is also exciting, uh, because that means that when we do analytics and we start to use a voice interface and device lifts interfaces and the autonomous interactions, uh, I think he’s ahead of the game and even even to speak to our, uh, our march theme, the Automated Intelligence, uh, I think he’s well on his way to achieving that as well. So I would probably just start with a whole bunch of Kudos. Ruairi Barwell: 00:51:51 Thank you. Ken Sinclair: 00:51:54 No, actually the question I would like to ask you is how do we get a string of consultants like you? I mean that’s our problem as an industry is really have traditional consultants that are controlled by lawyers that are immobilized and they’re putting in their 1956 system because they worried that they’re going to get sued if they try anything new. So you guys somehow, uh, moved over into risk management. They’re looking at changing world. How’d you do that? Ruairi Barwell: 00:52:31 We’re talking about energy or whatever we’re talking about indoor air quality, indoor environmental quality in general. The level of transparency. We’re at the tip of the iceberg there. Um, you know, the sensors are becoming cheaper and more available. You know, we can, where we can practically do realtime indoor air quality monitoring. We’re working because you know, a friend of the show, Albert, he’s on it, you know, how is already working on a real time. We’re going to be using his sensors for, to, to track this real time. It’s very affordable sensors that are high quality that are going to still meet the well building standards for accuracy. The problem with answers as you got what you pay for. So if you can get, you know, the correct, mmm, Ruairi Barwell: 00:53:26 nope. We’re tracking typically CO2, that’s the one we all kind of default to, but also PLCs, how the material selection impacts the environments. Um, pm 2.5, you know, how the, how to particulate matter in the air stream, you know, how well are we still trading the air, how clean was the air. A lot of this technology comes from China, I believe it or not because the outdoor air so poor over there. This is kind of initiatives, you know, the badge of honor in China is to show that, hey, it’s not necessarily I got to lead platinum building , I’ve got to building with clean air.. You start to see initiatives like, uh, you know, the recess, uh, certification reset in the certification. That’s primarily based on just, uh, it’s only based on indoor air quality, you know, so, Speaker 6: 00:54:19 right. Ruairi Barwell: 00:54:25 Well, you know, it, it’s, it’s, it’s a fun vibe, you know, practice a little bit. You know, scary time, you know, for, for uh, when we disclosed this amount of information to a building operators, we work with property management firms. We work with a nutshell reads, um, ourselves as a design firm. Now our level of transparency, our post postdoc, the evaluation for our own designs, it’s become a lot more rigorous. So, you know, not only are we focused on energy and the outcomes and okay, are we know we got to hit this Gui for the building. What now? What are we going to hit this threshold for co two levels for particulate matter or you know, for um, the materials that were, that, you know, everything from them at the carpet that’s been selected impacts the indoor air quality impacts. Ken Sinclair: 00:55:16 Go ahead. No, I was just wanting to pick, pick up on that. That’s another interesting side of it is as the devices and the things are starting to talk to us, I just came off a conference call with getting ready for the control con event in Detroit and Joe from bedrock had just come back from Korea and he’d been talking to the LG folks and the LG folks on their units are absolutely prepared to provide complete open all of the information they have internal to their units and so all of a sudden pick up. That’s like a whole new world to us was where the OEM always kind of kept everything and you bought it and you know he never really knew what it does now into your transparency of data. You’re having this, these machines and as a consultant you can control that in the fact that you say, I want devices that are more transparent and that they give me new data. If they don’t give me my data, I’m going to buy product B, not product day because Ken Sinclair: 00:56:24 this guy gives me more data every week. Gives me the most data, maybe the product as long as it gets Ruairi Barwell: 00:56:32 after your original question. And how do we get more people on board? I think the really nice thing about working with an entity like the GSA is that they’re doing this to be the, to be a leader. Everything we’re doing is going to be published publicly available. There’s no secret there. You know, everything. We’re going to be doing this completely open and we’re kind of share best practices super. And that’s why, you know, so we’ve teamed with Harvard, uh, there they’re just going to continue to do great things and change the industry. Um, uh, we’re starting to see, you know, Lawrence Berkeley national labs and the Department of Energy got on board with these, you know, these same metrics and uh, um, ourselves and, uh, four or five or order pure group, uh, your, um, companies are, are currently work in the early stages with the national labs and Department of Energy to, to kind of just a roadmap out how prevalent types of analytics that we’re doing. Ken Smyers: 00:57:34 A couple of things, you just came back from an important trip this morning, didn’t you? You were in Minneapolis, Minnesota this morning and you came back. Ruairi Barwell: 00:57:41 Yeah. Minneapolis is a near and dear to my heart. That’s where if my second city, so I grew up in Ireland. If you can’t tell from my accent, cargo is my city. Been here for 20 years now, but my wife is from Minneapolis, are on Minneapolis office. Nope. We’re kind of tied at the hip with, with, uh, with them how we’re structured regionally, our CEO, it’s up there. Um, so yeah, I came back from probably the only place right now do any major city that’s colored in Chicago at the mall. I didn’t, I wasn’t very sure if I’d make it out with the smell. Um, but I was up there. Yeah. For a, a very special read them. We were actually taken off, well, don’t kick it off. My good friend, uh, broad culture over at Hga, uh, has, uh, has over the past a year, 18 months. It’s been very successful with a couple of more teammates that heads up there and getting the big TC, uh, group going up at the building intelligence group, twin cities. And um, so we had a great, uh, meeting. We thought I had some great meetings over the past couple of months and that’s really, uh, so last night there was maybe 60, 70 people. Um, kind of the same cross section of card that you’d see at real calm. I’d be gone, you know, systems integrators, vendors, you know, some more proactive, um, design consultants, you know. MMM. Usual Xbox, you know. Um, Ruairi Barwell: 00:59:22 but everyone comment that, um, there’s really no outlet for smart. There’s really no smoking. We got USG, we see receive, got Ashrae for the engineers, but there’s really no local connection point or you know, people in the smart building industry. I was amazed. I had done a fantastic job up there. In fact, I should probably got him on Eric Stromquist: 00:59:46 right. It’s very dynamic individual. Ruairi Barwell: 00:59:50 Oh yeah. It’s fantastic. And uh, he’s done a great job with that. So, um, as a result of the success of a big building intelligence group, twin cities, we’re going to start a big shy here, April. So we’re saying we’re going to basically start the Chicago franchise here for anyone out there that’s in the Chicago area. Hit me up and I’ll give you the details on the first meeting. It’s going to be on April 11th year. We’re going to host the first one at our office, uh, looking for volunteers and Geneva, our committee members and everything else. So we’re looking to get a good group here. It’s a kickoff. The, uh, the first one, Ken Smyers: 01:00:30 critical. How’s the soccer program going? I understand. Last time we talked to you, you are, and your soccer outfit because you were heading down practice, Ruairi Barwell: 01:00:39 right? You know, uh, I got one thing I have in mind for soccer. I have plenty of sad. Ken Smyers: 01:00:45 Yeah. Ruairi Barwell: 01:00:47 Liverpool happened to have my liver big Liverpool Fan, so nervous times at the moment that we got them to every run in here for the Premiere League. Hopefully. Uh, the first year [inaudible] 92 I think so, Eric Stromquist: 01:01:07 yeah. We’ve got a pretty good soccer team down in Atlanta now that make us do Ruairi Barwell: 01:01:12 awesome. Yeah, no, I’m a, I’m a big Chicago fire power as well. They were doing nearly as good as your guys are doing. Ken Smyers: 01:01:21 Yeah, you can pay more money. Eric Stromquist: 01:01:31 You know, I wanted to sort of ask and sort of cycled back around to, it seems like you’re doing things and getting things done that, you know, we treat very few consultants sort of getting the traction. You aren’t terms of changing how people are doing, building automation controls and, and making a more emotional and all that stuff. You know, for our audience in mind, I know you guys have all of the offices I think in 30 countries or there abouts. Ruairi Barwell: 01:01:57 Well it’s, it’s 30 location. The majority of those are in the Norton in North America. We’ve got an office in Shanghai, Dubai in Nairobi stuff. The kind of global reach it. Yeah. Yeah. Ken Smyers: 01:02:09 So I was just curious if, if you see things differently or done differently in different countries and is it part of how you guys are sort of being innovative, the fact that you sort of have a global perspective instead of a just a North American history Ruairi Barwell: 01:02:23 perspective? I think it’s definitely an advantage. You know, I think myself personally, we have a lot of interactions with my, my old college buddies are working across the world and uh, your fellows kind of been a front runner, but I truly believe we’re in the right place here and not there. There’s so much exciting things going on here in North America. I think the change that’s going to happen from here, there’s so much innovation, so much, uh, so much, okay, it’s mainstream now. You know, we’re not talking about someone, not something on the periphery. You know, when you see big players like the GSA, you know, when you see people like Chicago public schools, you know, I’ve mentioned there their public sector. I think I actually Ma personally got most enjoyable working with developers that I, you know, I enjoy the fast paced nature of a working with developers. Ruairi Barwell: 01:03:16 And you know, when you start to see, you know, the people who are typically focused on dollars and cents and bottom line and that’s it gotta be like that when they start to focus on wellness and amenities. But you know, again, it’s still dollars and cents. Attracting and retaining the best tenants in your building is still attracting and retaining the best talent for those tenants. So when you start to see, you know, a smart building, uh, strategies start to filtrate into the, into the mainstream because it makes sense for these dollars are the developers to do it. You know, that that’s a woodwind. Eric Stromquist: 01:03:55 Yeah. Cause it seems like the buildings are going to be more competitive as Ken Saint Claire, who’s our resident millennial here has pointed out that, uh, you know, you better have a nice space if you want me to come into the office and work. So, so I think, you know, there’s a lot of awareness about wanting to have a great space and energy efficient space and obviously a space that leads to productivity. So it seems like that conversation is shifting. Where will you say developers and owners are more open to having that versus just being driven by energy or low cost when so hopefully that trend will Ruairi Barwell: 01:04:25 absolutely. Yeah. I mean one of the most progressive developers we’re working with here locally in Chicago, Sterling Bay, you know, they uh, they, uh, Google’s Midwest headquarters, Mcdonald’s global headquarters, moved downtown from suburbs group on Gogo, go down the list. And uh, you know, we’re doing a lot of work with them on their existing building side. But also we’re, we’re really lucky in Chicago. We’ve got a very progressive utility as well. So we’ve got combat in Chicago and we’ve got some legislation at the state level, like the future and jobs act, that kind of mine bass. But these guys have to invest in energy efficiency programs. But we’ve got the monitoring based commissioning program here in Chicago, which is really a, you know, it’s a fantastic

The Soil Association's brand new podcast, Farm Walks, gives a personal glimpse into farming in the UK. In episode two Ben Raskin, Head of Horticulture at Soil Association, joins David Eagle from Devereux Farm to talk about coastal farming. David is a fourth-generation farmer from Kirby-le-Soken in Essex. His family have been farming here since the 1880s. Devereux Farm has a long-term threat from the rise in sea level due to its low-lying position next to the Walton Backwaters. To get around this challenge of coastal farming, in 2009, David decided to put himself right at the forefront of innovation by growing and processing sea buckthorn. This hardy, berry producing plant has the ability to survive extreme conditions, high or low temperatures and salty coastlines – it has also been known to fight soil erosion.

The Speakers discuss the news of LBR hosts moving to a new project, a recent interview Yoshi-P, Soken and Koji Fox did with french magazine Finaland (https://www.finaland.com/?rub=site&page=news&id=6350), the upcoming All Saints' Wake event and some MogMail to boot. Send us MogMail: https://speakersxiv.com/mogmail/ *************************************** ► Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/SpeakersXIV ► Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SpeakersXIV ► Catch us LIVE on Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/speakersofhydaelyn ► Speakers Discord: https://discord.gg/ATBUccS

China is at it again - The Peoples Liberation Army is using our hardware to hack into the government and our businesses. Testing the Presidential Alert System and why it that test is important. What do you think about Youtube replacing textbooks?  Well it is happening in many schools. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Related Articles: The Big Hack: How China Used A Tiny Chip To Infiltrate Major U.S. Companies Why Didn’t I Get an Emergency Presidential Alert Text? YouTube Is Replacing Textbooks In Classrooms Across America --- Transcript: Below is a rush transcript of this segment, it might contain errors. Airing date: 10/10/2018 China Hack, Youtube replacing Textbooks in schools, iWatch4 and Presidential Alerts Craig Peterson: 0:00 Hey, Good morning. Craig Peterson, here. We've talked about a couple of different things this morning including Ken went in to check out that new Apple Watch. So, if you have older eyes, you're going to want to hear what he had to say about it. But, today we talked about the Presidential alert system. Did you get one of those alerts this week? A YouTube study that came out from Pearson Education, this is absolutely going to affect your kids. And this, China hack - did they hack our hardware? Who's at risk? What's really going on here? Its smaller than a grain of rice. It's just amazing what's happening what's going on out there today. Also, the third webinar today of our little webinar series, its the last one. It's for Small businesses on cybersecurity and we're offering one free cyber security, cyber liability, actually, sigh liability assessment. One free for small companies. So go to Craig Peterson dot com sign up for the webinar. Webinar attendees will get one free assessment. This is something that normally cost hundreds of dollars and thousands if you're doing it across the company. We've had a lot of great feedback from people on this who learned a lot of things. I appreciate everybody who's there so check it out Craig Peterson dot com and here we go with this morning Phil and Ken because Matt is out, well on vacation 1:36 I wonder if this theme song is nominated the rock and roll Hall of Fame. I wonder if Craig Peterson is a nominee for the rock and roll hall of fame. I suspect not. Craig, nothing personal. Maybe the Technology Hall of Fame? Certainly. I would agree with that. Hello. Unknown 1:51 How are you? Great job. I don't know if we have those. You know, the jocks end up working for the geek. But the geeks just never manage to get their own hall of fame. 2:01 Yes, that's true. They are prejudiced against geeks 2:06 The geeks and running in the world, what are you talking about? 2:08 So, I have to tell you, Craig, my wife is not a big fan of Donald Trump. And when she got this Presidential Text, she literally screamed. She really thought that the President was texting her directly, and then thought that was gonna be followed up with another text or a Twitter from him about something because of they 2:27 don't we, it's not 2:28 Don't we run the risk of the president being able to just kind of send something out to everybody, whether we like it or not? Or is that not a risk at all? 2:38 Wouldn't that be something? 2:43 Was it sounds like xo, xo or anything on the end? Or? 2:46 No, I doubt it. 2:50 Yeah, well, we've, you know, we have an Emergency Alert System. And if you're living down in the coast right now, there's probably hurricane sirens going off to warn everybody. And you might have seen before weather alerts that come into our phones right, here, If there's a heavy storm, flooding expected, etc. And so typically these things are run by the state. Do you remember? A lot of this was early on, I think in President Trump's presidency, or maybe it was under President Obama, that in Hawaii, all of the air raid sirens started going off because there was an imminent inbound missile that was going to hit Hawaii. Do you remember that one? Yeah, yeah. And, you know, so those things are typically run by the state. In the case of Hawaii, of course, it was it was a false alarm. But, this what you had last week was not President Trump reaching out to all of the women in the country 3:48 What it was was an emergency presidential text alert. The same types of messages that you've been getting from the state, historically now, the Feds can do. And this is the third time they've run a test it's been a little while since I tested it last time not everybody got these alerts and the idea is if there is something imminent, something urgent that happening and everybody needs to know about it that's how the messages going to get out because most people have a cell phone all of the major carriers are participating in this. and you know Ken we remember his kids learning "duck and cover" right, because of the Soviet threat at the time, when we were in school. This is kind of the modern-day version of this Now, they are calling this a presidential alert. It really is a federal alert but yeah not everybody got it which is kind of interesting and that's the reason they're testing it. In order to make sure that everyone does get it. So, that the in the event that there is some form of a national emergency and everyone needs to be notified right away they'll be able to to use it. So tell your wife, Don't worry about it he's probably she's probably not going to get another personal message from the president. We're talking with Craig Peterson our tech guru that man over there is Ken Auchulter 5:14 Yeah, you like the godfather of the WGAN morning news I'm, I guess I'm the guest today Filling in. Craig let me follow up on that for just real briefly because there's other things I, I'm curious to get your opinion on. My understanding is that not everyone got that presidential alert text, I, I'm I'm one of them. Maybe it's because 5:36 I didn't care at all about you. Sometimes, it's about someone else. Well, frankly, it was only the important people Unknown 5:48 Not everyone got that. In fact I was on a phone call, when it came in. Because I forgot that it was coming right or I would have waited and my phone call was completely interrupted and the alert came through. And then it was reconnected after a few seconds. And then the guy in the other end of the phone cut the presidential alert. So, I know it leads to people that got it. But yeah, there are still some number of people that didn't get it. And they were on various carriers. So, some Verizon people got it some didn't to some T- Mobile got it from didn't. I'm not sure of all of the details as to why some got it and some didn't. Other than some glitches in the system, which is why they felt they had to test it again. 6:34 Let's go to a different place. I'm really eager to get your opinion and analysis of this story that came out about an Unknown 6:42 tiny chip in China 6:45 equipment that's now infiltrating US Companies. Yes, please. Tell us. Give us give us to tell us what's happening. Craig? Well, this is there. Wow. Intrigue, okay. I don't even know where to start with this one. This is fascinating because of a story came out in Bloomberg last week. And Bloomberg was saying that major US corporations, and they named specifically Amazon, and they also named Apple. That US corporations had been infiltrated by the People's Liberation Army, at least their equipment had been. The Bloomberg story when it is some detail about it. And we've had over the weekend now, absolute denials from Amazon and Apple about this. Now, this is let's talk about the accusation. And then in fact, this week, there have been more confirmations that have happened. Apparently, China has this little teeny tiny chip that may be about the size of a grain of rice. And the allegation is that the Chinese military has been embedding these chips into computer circuit boards, into the motherboards of certain computers made by a server manufacturer, that that I've used for years called Supermicro, they make some really good stuff. They are a Taiwanese company like guy that owns it's based out in the San Francisco Bay Area. And they've been around for very long time. And apparently what this chip does is when the computer when the server boots up, it basically just opens up the phone line to China and gives them complete control over the computer. Now, the Bloomberg story said that Amazon figured this out, and started removing these pieces of equipment from the network's. Same things true with Apple, they figured it out, as well. Although, as I said, both companies have denied it. And this week, we have a company that says they have a examined these systems. And yes, indeed, there are spy chips on all of these devices, including devices that are used by the military and the federal government, including things like cameras, video cameras, and others. So, this is really kind of interesting, at least from my standpoint, because you know, I love the security stuff and figuring it all out and helping businesses with it. But we're talking about potential infiltration by the Chinese military of the CIA, as well as divisions, major divisions of the military, and maybe even some of our major corporations that are handling all of our data. And I frankly, I wouldn't put it past the Chinese to do something like that. We have 9:57 been talking to Craig Peterson, our Tech Guru who joins us, every Wednesday at 738 10:04 YouTube. I watch you to all the time, you know, I'm a, I don't know if you know, this big pickleball player and I, I go to YouTube all the time to learn, how to play pickle a ball. So if I can learn pick up all by YouTube. Can't our students learn their lessons in school by YouTube? 10:22 It's an interesting question. And my grandfather plays Pickleball, by the way, Ken Unknown 10:28 say that ages me doesn't it? Yeah, 10:30 yeah, there. There you go. 10:34 Yeah, YouTube, it's an interesting thing. Because there is basically everything you want out on YouTube, the quality of what you're going to learn is always a little bit questionable. But we're seeing more and more, online learning going on. You know, my wife and I, we homeschooled all of our kids. And you have eight children? Yeah, you have eight children. Oh, my 10:58 god, you're a saint 11:00 today, we homeschooled them all the way up to college. Then there was no YouTube, right? There wasn't any of this stuff. And it was a different world. You know, we use Texas Tech and some other things to help with the curriculum. Well, now we're finding that YouTube is replacing the textbooks and lectures in a lot of the schools, nationwide. And some studies have been done looking at the different generations of students and have found that millennials prefer to learn from textbooks, 60% of them, but it's switched now the next generation, which is called Generation Z, is preferring to learn from YouTube, about 60% of them. So Ken you have something in common with Gen Z. There you go. Yeah. So, and we're talking about Gen Z, we're still talking about the young kids, right, early high school all the way up through through college, frankly. But this, is going to be happening more and more, hopefully, they're vetting it properly. But, it really brings in an interesting question about our future and the future of our universities and our schools, high schools. There's a lot of lot of kids here in Maine that are living in very rural areas that are using online curriculum. There is some incredible stuff out there from every major university. So, I think that's a good move I think its overall a good move, let me put it that way. The study that was done by Pearson Education I had some good and interesting numbers in it I've got it up on my website as well as these other articles. But this is the trend of the future, guys Unknown 12:50 All right, our tech guru joins us every Wednesday 738. By the way, Craig, I saw the iWatch four I went to the Apple Store to look at it. Yeah, It really looks impressive and I don't even wear a watch but I yeah I think I think it's on my Christmas list now 13:06 Can you see it? Can you read it well enough? 13:07 You know, I believe it or not I look at the 40 and the 44, watches the 44 just looked too big on my wrist because I've got, you know, I'm small, I'm five feet five. So, I looked at the forty and you know frankly, yeah wasn't that hard to read. I mean it's not it's not the same as my iPhone Xs max, which I love by the way I love by the way, but I love the right just the iPhone particular with cellular service now, you don't have your iPhone I think it's really been a quantum leap forward Unknown 13:41 Yeah, nice. Nice good recommendation there yep. From Ken Auchulter also there you go. 13:46 Thank you next week. 13:48 Bye. 13:51 Don't forget register early register often Craig Peterson dot com you'll get into today's webinar and we do have a replay that's going to be up for a few days if you missed this it's so important for small businesses. Small businesses, you are the target. Small-medium businesses, because you just can't afford the people that frankly you need in order to keep your system safe. And, you also have a lot more at risk a look at the list. There are dozens of things that you have that are your business assets that if they were unavailable to you or stolen would be just a horrific thing. So, make sure you register and maybe you can get into the next series that I put on probably coming up in a few months. Craig Peterson dot com. Have a great day. Take care guys. Bye-bye. --- Don't miss any episode from Craig. Visit http://CraigPeterson.com/itunes. Subscribe and give us a rating! Thanks, everyone, for listening and sharing our podcasts. We're really hitting it out of the park. This will be a great year!  --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

5G is almost here. Craig talks with Ken Altshuler and Matt Gagnon about how everyone is getting ready for it, about Cyber Security Awareness month, and how interesting the new Apple Watch 4's new features are. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Related Articles:   5G Cellular Data Service Is Almost Here — Here’s How Everyone’s Getting Ready --- Transcript: Below is a rush transcript of this segment, it might contain errors. Airing date: 10/03/2018 FCC Chairman Ajit Pai - 5G Cell Rollout - October Cyber Security Awareness - Small Business Security Craig Peterson: [00:00:00] Hey, good morning everybody. I had a good chat this morning with our friends up in Maine. It's kind of cool they do this I think what about once a quarter least every six months, they have breakfast. It's kind of a politics and eggs type thing. So Ken and Matt were out of that. But we still had our little conversations we talked a bit about Ken's, new desire for the Apple Watch for a little bit about Facebook. And we talked also about Ajit Pai who is, of course, the new chairman of the FCC. He's been there for about a year or so now and he came to Maine and talked. So we talked about the new 5G rollout some of the things Ajit had said at a small conference that they host it up there and I talked also about this really important cybersecurity thing I have going on for small businesses. So we talked about all of that we've got it all put together and it's it's all here and if you have not registered for this, I do have replays available for the next week. So you can send me an email or text me and let me know that you're interested. I'll be glad to follow up with you just to me@craigpeterson.com or you can text me at 855-385-5553 Hey Have a great day and I will be back for my live radio show I Heart Radio show of this weekend. Matt Gagnon 1:35 We are here live at the Portland Regional Chamber of Commerce's eggs and also some. Ken Altshuler 1:41 A lot of people here today. Matt 1:41 There are. We're here at the Holiday Inn by the Bay and yeah, there's filtering in but they did slow down which means that the program is probably beginning soon. So... Ken 1:49 Did you notice every gubernatorial candidate came over to our tables? Matt 1:53 They did. I got a handshake from Janet and everything. Ken 1:54 Yes. Yeah. And Shawn was very friendly, and Karen didn't really chat with us. Matt 2:01 I got a wave, as he walked by. Ken 2:02 Queen's wave. And we got high five from Kerry. exclamation points. Matt 2:08 Side five. High five. Well, anyway, let's go back to Craig Peterson, our tech guru who joins us as. Ken 2:11 Well we can't go back if we haven't gone to him yet. Matt 2:13 Good point. Let's go to Craig. Craig 2:15 Well you're with me last week, right? Matt 2:17 Yes. There you go. Thank you, Craig. Absolutely. We're back. Back to you, sir. Ken 2:22 Craig, I was gonna ask you about the Facebook hack. But I must tell you. I've been I've been reading about the iWatch 4 and this one looks spectacular. I think I'm gonna buy one. Craig 2:36 Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people are really excited about this, iWatch. iWatch 4 is kind of a first watch that maybe Apple is going to have a bigger hit with, you know, when we're comparing all four models, right? The iWatch e or the Apple Watch 1. It is not really an iWatch Ken. They call it an Apple Watch. But it's, it's the most popular because there's no big wins in two or three. But four is absolutely phenomenal to watch. And I played with one last, no, two nights ago. And I really liked it. I, you know, I'm thinking about buying one as well. But I have the same problem you do. I have a hard time seeing small things. So it's, yeah, Ken 3:21 And we were able to, I had a friend who has who actually has the iWatch 4 now. And it looked like it was a little big one you can actually see some of the stuff on it. Craig 3:30 It it is and you can increase the font sizes and you can have to scroll. You can do a lot of stuff with it to make it a little better for those of us that have presbyopia you know that have the problem seeing things up close as we age. So I think they've got a winner on their hands. There's no doubt about that. Ken 3:49 So let's let's get to some serious stuff though. Craig 3:52 Yeah, exactly. Ken 3:56 Facebook. Craig 3:56 The whole thing about the Facebook hack is really interesting because this month is Cyber Security Awareness Month. So we've got to thank the Zuck for bringing this to all to our attention. They get out there because Zuckerberg's account was hacked. As we're a minimum of 50 million other people's Facebook accounts. Now I'm saying a mil, a minimum of 50 million. Because at this point, we don't have full disclosure from Facebook, they're still trying to figure everything out. It's a real problem. very sophisticated hack, I have to say whoever did this really knew what they were doing. Because they had to use three different bugs in Facebook systems and use them against each other in order to get into these accounts. So this may well have been a nation state actor. In other words, China or Russia, China has been very busy lately in attacking us, our infrastructure, our computers, etc. So may well have been China could be some other countries. Who knows Iran and North Korea, they both have big cyber attack facilities as part of the military is out there. But if you were hacked, you're going to have to kind of wait a little while to find out because we don't know exactly what might have been stolen. And it's going to be on a by person basis if anything was stolen. But if you had to log into your Facebook again this week than that probably means your account was one of the ones that was compromised because the attack use these tokens that Facebook what's on your computer to know it's your computer so they don't have to log in every time. So kind of a big deal. And I've got to mention too, because it's Cyber Security Awareness Month. And because the FBI, his newest statistics that came out about a month ago are saying that about $12 billion has been stolen from business, $12 billion cash stolen from business over the last 24 months. And since most small and medium businesses just cannot afford to have the technology help that they need when it comes to the cybersecurity I'm doing a couple of free webinars here, actually a series of three, one starting this afternoon. So absolutely free. There is going to be a ton of great information, I'm going to go into a little bit more depth and everything. Obviously, I'm not going to try and turn it into a cybersecurity expert. You got a business to run, right. That's part of the reason that you're having troubles with your cyber security, you have a real life but the bad guys are coming after you more and more and more so this afternoon at 4pm. I'm going to be doing the first in a series of three webinars for small and medium businesses to help you with awareness help you know what to do help you know how to fix these problems. So if you want to attend hand, it's absolutely free. No credit card nothing. Okay. This is information packed. Just either send me an email just me@craigpeterson.com. me@craigpeterson.com. Send me an email, let me know you'd be interested in attending. I'll send you the link and stuff or you can text me so obviously if you're driving, you're going to have to call back to this station and ask Danny for the phone number okay to text. But you can also text me at 855-385-5553. Believe me, this is a great service. Everyone's been telling me I did one of these last summer and I'm probably going to do some more this fall. But just text me 855-385-5563. We're going to be talking about the security problems that small businesses have. Here's Zuckerberg got hacked, right? Mark Zuckerberg accounts on hack Facebook got hacked they can afford with billions in the bank. They can afford to have the security people cover everything up, take care of everything. You as a small business person. And then this is happening every day when you lose your data. When you're busy. When that data is disclosed and your reputation is hard that enough is enough to destroy your business. So you've got to make sure you understand security that it's being taken care of properly. We'll talk a little bit about outsourcing it to local it firms, etc. What kind of questions should you ask them will cover all of this stuff over the next three webinars which are over the course of a week but send me an email just me@craigpeterson.com. I'll sign me up this is it could not be more important. Matt 8:51 We're ralking to Craig Peterson, our tech guru who's joining us as he always does at this time every Wednesday to go over some tech topics. Craig, I'm going to name drop. Please don't please don't hold it against me. But Ajit Pai who is the chairman of the FCC joined the Maine Areas Policy Center my organization for a big lunch and talk a few weeks ago. And when he did I had a chance to talk to them a little bit. And he told me all about 5G. He kept talking about 5G deployment. 5G here how we're going to get it here. How are we going to do it here? What it's going to mean for you know, the country in general, and how we use the internet and all that kind of stuff. So 5G is a topic of conversation to say the least. And it is something that we all have an eye on for the future. Is it is it quote unquote, here yet? I mean, do we have 5G? Should we look forward to this very soon? Craig 9:39 Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, because 5G is not going to start out as 5G, basically, they adopted a standard, it was accepted last December for a new 5G standard, which is basically just an enhanced 4G or LTE that we're used to right now. It's going to roll out, it's going to roll out pretty quickly, it's already rolled out to some kind of some test markets to see how it's all working. But it's going to be absolutely phenomenal. This is a fifth generation of cell networking, it's going to provide a lot more data bandwidth at a much lower price. So this is going to be something that's going to kind of hit the cable companies who have been providing us with internet and, and also the phone companies. Because in depending on where you are, if you're out in the middle of the woods, this isn't going to help you much. But if you're near an area that has a lot of people in it, they're going to be installing a ton more cell sites or the little micro sites, there will be a probably four or five of these micro sites for every cell tower. It's going to be less obvious, it's not going to make this guideline look worse. And it's going to allow all of our devices to have incredible network conductivity. Matt 11:04 And not to interrupt you, Craig, but from what I understand about this is what you when you're talking about the deployment of these things, instead of these giants cell towers, it's essentially something the size of like a pizza box that's going to be able to provide this connectivity, right. I mean, so that by itself, you know, it helps deployed in more places, because that way, you don't have the same resistance to it with this giant tower, you know, that you used to have to put up you know, now you just have something that nobody even barely even notices, which might help clear up some of those dead spots. And also with faster. Craig 11:33 Yeah, it doesn't looks like trees, right? Matt 11:36 Yeah. Big trees. Ken 11:38 They're very attractive. Like Christmas trees. Craig 11:40 Yeah, yeah, you're right. Those are the micro sites and the micro sites they need a lot of them and small businesses that own buildings are going to have the opportunity to host one of these little pizza boxes basically these micro site they will be everywhere. They aren't going to spread very quickly which is nice as well it's not going to be ugly and you're not gonna believe the tougher because everything you know our cars need this in order to coordinate for the autonomous vehicles out there the new clothes like Levi's came out with a new Levi's jacket that has built right into it sensors and they can be network connected. You know your coat is network connected but you talked about this 4G phone. Ken 12:29 You mean the coat's talked, your Levi's coat's talk to other Levi's coats? Craig 12:35 Yeah exactly. That's what it is. And the Levi's coat can control your other devices right from a sensor on your wrist in the coat. Okay, so everything is about to change. We've got Apple working on these Google Glasses type things. Of course Google is as well. Other companies are you'll be able to be walking around have alerts pop right up, you'll see them like a heads up display. And and for all of this, we needed bandwidth. And that's what 5G's going to provide. That's why we've got sprint and T Mobile are trying to get together they're trying to do a merger waiting for all of the regulatory approvals in order to compete in the 5G marketplace. But everything changes and and Matt, anything else that just said, because that guy is really on top of it. Matt 13:29 I said a lot of things. I was one of the more interested ones I thought, you know, we talked an awful lot about net neutrality, which I know we've gone over the program more than once and sort of what we've seen you covered that a couple weeks ago, I thought about the change in the sort of internet speeds and our ranking internationally and how it's starting to lead to some investment in that kind of thing. But you know, generally speaking, things like that. Yeah, he was he was definitely a good talk. It's very interesting. Craig 13:52 Yeah, yeah, good guy. So everybody, don't forget today. I'll give it out again right now phone number to be able to attend this series of free webinars. It's informational, no credit card needed. It's all about how to secure your small business, how to find someone to help take care of your small business security and it's all going to be via webinar and you can find out more just email me@craigpeterson.com. Ken 14:23 Our tech guru Craig Peterson joins us every Wednesdays at 7:38 this not being an exception. Craig, thanks for joining us. I may go look the iWatch this weekend. So I'll give you an update next week. Craig 14:33 Oh cool, thanks Ken. Ken 14:36 Talk to you later. Matt 14:37 Alright, so we're gonna take a quick break here. We'll come back. --- Don't miss any episode from Craig. Visit http://CraigPeterson.com/itunes. Subscribe and give us a rating! Thanks, everyone, for listening and sharing our podcasts. We're really hitting it out of the park. This will be a great year!  --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Duty Commenced Episode 24 is archived, Fan Kit update, The Feast Regional Championship 2018 Prelims results, New Optional Items & Mega Mog Station Sale, announcing the 5th Anniversary 14-Hour Broadcast, more Further Tales from the Storm, Letter from the Producer LIVE Part XLVI announced, Game Watch Interview with Yoshi-P and Soken, Developer's Blog, White Raven earrings discussion, The Rising prophecy discussion, 5.0 naming speculation, and fan mail. Yelta and Rubicon host.

Why Dave Decided to talk to Ken: Ken Dunn is an international speaker, author, and the CEO and founder of GoRead.com; a social media and ecommerce community for readers and a support platform for authors. He is also credited for starting a wonderful foundation: GoRead Children's Literacy Foundation; helping to fight illiteracy around the world. Ken's passion is helping experts turn their experience into highly profitable authority platforms. He has written and published 5 books, selling over 300,000 copies in 10 languages. Specializing in book publishing, Ken has developed a structured plan that helps authors and other people create a book in 30 days. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: Why write a book (1:55) Breaking down book writing (9:45) The book writing dual with James P Friel and Dean Holland (12:20) The 10 minute writing bursts (19:30) Dragon Dictate App (20:15) Quotable Moments: "When people are starting to write books and they think about it, they immediately get overwhelmed." "It’s ok to put everything you know in a book." "Your book will either promote you or expose you." Other Tidbits: Writing a book opens up many doors to different avenues of income. Get more tips from Ken on the Podcast: Just The Tips episode 44 - “How To Write a Not-Terrible Book” with James P Friel and Dean Holland. Links: FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:     00:00       Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Air. Many Speaker 2:     00:18       is going to be a fun ride today. Hold on. Tight to. I want to introduce you guys to a dear friend of mine who has been crushing it in an area that's been near and dear to our hearts, and that's an old book publishing area. So Ken Dunn, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Dave can hear me okay? I can. Thanks. So for those guys, you may not know Ken. I basically. He's one of those nice guys from Canada. Every. Everybody from Canada is nice. I don't know what it is. Everyone I know from Canada, every Canadian has a nice guy, but this guy has been trying to figure out this whole digital marketing thing for years. Ironically, he acts. He's been crushing it. He's killing it. He's a CEO and Co founder of [inaudible] Dot com, which is a publishing platform more important that he's an author. Speaker 2:     00:55       He teaches other people how to write their books and I really want to make sure you guys understand the value behind this. That's why I wanted to have ken on the show today. It's helped me understand not only the value of writing a book, but more importantly falling kind of a system on how to do it quickly and that's one of the things that Ken's going to talk to you about. In addition to that, we're going to talk a little bit about the JSP freel and Dean hollins challenge on book. Writing them down. Will fill the on some of the details there. So Ken, welcome. Let's kind of dive right in. Speaker 3:     01:21       Uh, thanks a lot. Yeah, I'm excited. I know we're going to talk about some really great stuff about how any entrepreneur could write a book fast and write a good quality book and then why they should do that. But I can't wait to get into the dual. Between James P dot Farrell and dean Holland Lean hollandaise sauce. These guys are just keep trade out of it. Writing books right now. Speaker 2:     01:42       Alright, so let's tell people a little bit as far as why books. I mean this is one of the things people are like, oh, I don't want to write a book. Everybody always says I got a book inside me, but I just don't want. It's too much pain to get it out. Speaker 3:     01:55       Yeah, well I, you know, anybody that's in the ecosystem sees what you guys are doing and realizes that if they can get the book out of them, there's just a massive opportunity. The hot thing that everybody seems to be doing right now is a free plus shipping offer and those are going really well for a lot of people, but the challenge is actually writing the book and it's kind of funny. I got to take you back and tell you a little bit of the story in order to help you to really understand my passion for it. Dave, you know, this was a police detective in the past. What if I go back 18 years, I was a homicide cop and the chief interrogator, but major police department in Canada called, it's an Ottawa again and I walked away from policing. I started a business with a really amazing mentor in the mortgage industry in just three short years. We grew it from nothing to $300, million in sales and we sold it and it happened so fast that when I left that I don't know how I got into my mind, but I decided I was going to become a professional speaker, travel all over the world and I was going to write a book and one part happened for me. The other part sucked. Speaker 3:     03:03       I started traveling everywhere, but man, it took me 18 months to write my first book and then I gave up 10 pounds of blood easily. You ever tried to write a book yourself? Dave? I've tried three times, almost four times and I've given up every time. Honestly, I. There's so many other easier. That's why I do a podcast. I can't. I just hate writing. Yeah, it was painful for me. I never had any help. I mean, we're talking 18 years ago, but I remember it like it was yesterday. I just sat down and I wanted to write this book that would teach business owners how to create more sales in their businesses, some good old fashioned sales techniques and I'd start and I'd stop and I'd start and I'd stop and even thinking about it. Now I'm getting tongue tied, but what's even crazier is like 18 months later I finally get this book done. Speaker 3:     03:58       Then I go to the Internet and I'm looking for somebody to help me publish it and I've found a publisher who swore to me that it would become a best seller and I would. They were the right choice for me and Gosh, they had me at hello, and then they paid them $80,000 to edit it, to proofread it, to publish it, to print it and some big elaborate marketing strategy. And, and it was published with 280 grammar and spelling errors and it was a freaking disaster. We sold eight copies, printed, 10,992 copies of this book in my basement. My wife hates me for $10,000 a book is how much it cost to publish those. Oh baby. It was three bucks a copy. So $30,000 went into printing and I only sold eight of them. I still have the other ones though. She keeps telling me to get rid of them. Speaker 3:     04:56       I guess I should let you know what's really interesting about that is that I, by that time I was already speaking all over the world and so I had to get this book done because I had already started talking to people about it and I didn't know what to do, but I remember jumping onto an airplane. I was heading to Asia on a trip and I went into the Hudson news to grab some snacks in there. In the store was a book sitting on the counter. I mean how many times Dave, have you been in an airport and you're going into the Hudson news or one of the snacks doors and there's a book there, catches your eye and you just grab it and throw it into whatever you're buying all the time. So the. So the book, you may have actually heard of this title, but the book was called how to make people like you in 90 seconds or less. Speaker 3:     05:44       And it freaking just hooked me. I mean, I'm a sales guy, right? So I'm thinking if they liked me faster, I can make more money. Um, but I, I literally bought this book. I read it on the trip four times. I came back from my trip, it was back in 2006 and I decided I needed to meet the author because the book was so amazing. I wanted a book like that and the author's name was Nicholas Boothman. He's a New York Times bestseller and he just happened to live in Toronto where I was living. So three days after I started looking for my, found him, we had lunch together and he said hello to me and then slapped me in the head in 30 seconds because. Because I started telling him the story that you told me or that I just told you. And when I told them how hard it was to write the book, he started laughing at me and I said, why? He said, what are you laughing at? He said, well, he's. He'd written, he's written five books. He's sold over 3 million copies of them. He speaks 50 to 60 times a year at an average of 70,000 speech, makes millions here because of his books. And he said, I've never taken more than 30 days to write a book. And I'm thinking, yeah, you must be. You must be like writing 24 hours a day. And he said, no, I've never written for more than 20 minutes a day. Speaker 3:     07:02       Yeah, that's what I thought. So I, I, I convinced him to teach me this and I've, since that day, 2006 I've published, I've published four books. Each of those books that I wrote, I wrote in less than 30 days. I never wrote for more than 20 minutes a day and I've sold 300,000 copies of my personal books and it's using that system. So he actually taught me this amazing system for writing a book quick and writing it without pain and avoiding writer's block because Dave, I don't think there's anybody in your world, in the click funnels world that would argue that if they could get a book out of them, there's tons of value, tons of things they could do with that book. Is that fair? Oh, well, considering the fact we've built 100 million dollar company off to different books, I think it'd be very hard for anyone to dispute that fact. This is what I tell every single one of my clients that I teach how to use this system. I point Rachel Russel Story and I talk about how he used those books, how you guys turn them into free plus shipping offers, how you use them at live events and all the stuff you did and in a $100 million dollar company. I know because we're on a recording that you're, you're under exaggerating with the size of click funnels today. Speaker 3:     08:24       Uh, so I, I just. That was, I mean that was the start of it. I started traveling now when people were telling me how much they were struggling writing books and so I went back to nick years later and I told them to write this book and he wrote it in 30 days, less than 10 minutes a day and it's called how to write a salable book in 10 minutes. Madness. This is the entire system, everything that and we've used this book and the workbook that goes along with it now over a thousand to write entire books in less than 30 days. That's crazy. Only because I know the pain and anguish that that Russell's gone through in writing his books. That honestly, if he thought he could write it in 30 minutes, a 30 days at 10 minutes a day, he'd be thrilled. Yeah, and unfortunately I didn't actually meet him until after and I don't know if you'll ever write another one, although I heard through the grapevine there might be another one coming, but it's really cool because what I've found in all my research statement, you might be able to relate to this is that when people are starting to write books and they're thinking about it, they instantly get overwhelmed by it because they're like, I gotta get all this stuff in it. Speaker 3:     09:39       I should put this in it. Maybe I shouldn't put this in it. I don't know what to put in it. They start writing. They stopped because that. I mean I went through that, but when you use this system, the very first thing that we get people to do is create the chapters, so it's like creating a journey for a reader where you start them at where you want to get them to, and then it's just like built it. As we're talking, I'm thinking it's just like building a perfect webinar. You create the chapters, then it needs of the secrets. You've got to break beliefs and you've got to rebuild those things. Actually what we do with people when they use this workbook to do it and, and it's just amazing, but what I, what I really hope people understand is what life looks like when you get the book done and, and why it's worth trying this system if they've ever wanted to write a book. Speaker 3:     10:29       Because I mean, look at Russell, look at you, look at what's happened with click funnels because of those books. Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. It's literally. I can't even begin to imagine what the true Roi is for us on those books. I mean it's, it's literally millions and millions of dollars. So I was trying to figure out here over here, you know, I joined the inner circle two and a half years ago now, but I had never. I didn't even know what a funnel was when I joined the. I didn't realize this, but I hadn't read either of the books. I just knew Russell from way back in the early days when we're both in network marketing and everybody. I was trying to figure out how to build this company and everybody's saying go to go see Russell, go see Russell and I couldn't get any time with him because he's so freaking busy, so I found this inner circle and I jumped into it and I didn't. Speaker 3:     11:20       I found out everything afterwards, but the parallels between digital marketing in my world, I just couldn't believe it because what I realized is that if you use this system to write your book, well as you're writing a book, you're actually creating the content for your course. So because every chapter becomes a module and the way you lay out a book properly in our system, it's almost like you're creating the transcripts that you're going to use for the course. So some people are actually doing courses first or live events and then doing books using our system. It's easier to do it the other way. So you take 30 days, 10 minutes a day, you write the book. Then you go into a studio. When you take your time, your chapters, and your record, your modules. Then you launch a free plus shipping offer and you give away the book, you do the audio book, you do the Oto and you sell the course on the last page. Speaker 2:     12:09       I love it. It's so freaking easy. Well, I want to dive right into this whole dual between, uh, Mr Dean hollandaise sauce and our official James P friel. And only because I was fascinated. I think it was last last Monday. Uh, James wasn't in the office. I'm like, where's James at? And the next morning we hadn't been working out. He goes, yeah, I wrote my book. I'm like, I did. What? Did you write the book? I wrote the outline. I'm like, what are you talking about? And that's when he told me this whole idea as far as what happened when he and dean. So you were on their podcast. People understand kind of what, what it is because they don't want to relate that to what anyone was listening to. This can do the exact same thing. Speaker 3:     12:50       Right? So I was on just, just the tips, which is an amazing podcast for any entrepreneur to follow. It's, it's really a wonderful job that they're doing together and it's fun because those guys are at each other's throats. Anytime you're on the show, right? There's a lot of this going on and so this happens a lot. Whenever I get a chance to be on a show like yours and I started talking about how easy it is to write a book, it automatically creates skeptics, right? Because you've tried to write a book for so long and I'm telling you, Dave, you use this system. You can write your entire book in 30 days. It will write for more than 20 minutes a day. It'll be ready to be edited right after that. And so I, I, I said that to these two dudes and they're just absolutely adding each other right away. Like I couldn't do it. I could do it. I turned it on them. Speaker 2:     13:42       I said, well, Speaker 3:     13:43       it'd be really cool is why don't we have a competition? Were you guys both use the system and whoever writes the best book wins a prize and we'll get everybody to vote on which book is best and the winner gets an all expense dream vacation Speaker 2:     14:01       and, and as soon as I said it, it was really cool Speaker 3:     14:08       because I write on their podcasts. You can hear the episode. Maybe we ought to put that into the shows. Speaker 2:     14:16       I'll make sure she puts it in the show notes. Just the tips episode. Perceive Dean Holland and James p Friel when Ken done was on, it was probably about a month or two ago. It was really good. Speaker 3:     14:28       Funny because all I had to do was just drop the idea and they were at each other. I can write better than you. I can read these both guys and just told me that both of them tried to write books for years and struggled. Speaker 2:     14:39       Now they're like the gods of writing. Both of them actually are very good writers. I mean, Jay's p Friel is doing a ton of writing all the time. Uh, and dean just, I mean he's a master at free plus shipping offers and does a lot of writing as well. So it's kind of funny when I was talking to him, they're like, a book's different though. Books not like copy, it looks not like this. And so all of a sudden the excuses came up. Speaker 3:     15:05       Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, and that's what's happening. We're meeting once a week on the phone just to discuss their progress. And that's exactly what's happening with them too. There's always excuses that are starting to Speaker 2:     15:18       let's combat some of the worst, some of the most common excuses you're dealing with when people. Let's try to eliminate all the excuses and take down all the walls here for anyone who's listening to this podcast to make sure that by the time they get done listening to podcasts, they have total belief. They can write a book and use your system or whatever else it might take. Speaker 3:     15:33       Yeah. So, so look, the, the number one biggest challenge that I have to deal with with people is for them to understand that it's okay to put everything you know in the book because when people are thinking about writing a book, the biggest and first mistake they make is they think that they have to hold back. They think that they shouldn't put the actual, you know, their experience, their expertise into the pages of the book, that they're confused because they say, well, if I put it all in the book, who's going to want to buy the course or who's going to want to hire me as a consultant? And what I've had to show them through Russell's example and others including my own, is the more you give, the more they want. And, and this helps, like we've helped hundreds of consultants to build six figure consulting businesses because they write a book first and they use the book as the calling card. So that's a big deal is just. Yeah, Speaker 2:     16:26       I was listening to this. This is probably one of the biggest mistakes I see people do in books or even courses where they feel like there's something else I want to sell them, so if I give it to them, all right now I won't. I basically preventing someone from buying more from me and I can tell anybody who's listening to this, what Ken just said is honestly the secret sauce to having success in any venture you're doing and that is the more that you give and the more that you put out. First of all, you always will have more. You're never going to be able to give everything away, and if you do, what it's gonna do is cause you to get to the next level where you create more anyways. So I'd highly recommend you take the advice can just said, and that is you make sure that when you're writing that book, you give absolutely every single thing away. Speaker 3:     17:06       Yeah, absolutely. The second is the time, as you can imagine, especially entrepreneurs that are just trying to get their legs under them and trying to make things happen, they can't. They always. It's a. it's always a struggle to convince them that they accept, they have the time and it's so just so everybody knows it. Here's the system and you still need the book and the workbook in order to do this, but essentially all you're going to do if you use this system to write your book in 30 days is you're going to start off by creating the. I call it the reader's journey. Think about trying to cross a river. You have to get across the river, but you can't fall into the water and there's a series of stones that if you safely jumped from stone to stone, the stone you'll get from one side to the other. Speaker 3:     17:51       Well, that's the reader's journey. Your reader starts off on the left side of the river and each stone represents one of the chapters. If you just simply ask yourself right up front, what is the journey I want to take the reader on? Who is the ideal reader? Where are they going to start and what do I want to get to them? To them them to by the end of the journey, and then you reverse engineer the chapters first. So in other words, what is the first step in any journey? There's a first step. Then the second that they could logically learn it, and once you figure those things out, the rest is really simple. The next thing you do is you assign free essential elements to each chapter. The first is the training. So for each chapter you're going to literally just decide what are you going to teach. Speaker 3:     18:36       The second is one of your stories. You always want to have one of your personal examples in each chapter and the next is two to three stories of either people you've helped or people you can use as examples. That's a book, that's what Russell did. That's what any expert in the world does. And if you, if you do your chapters first and you think about that in a logical order and you get all that organization done first, everything else is really simple. And here's the coolest part. The workbook that I created that goes with the book is what you use to do everything. I've just said, and you can do it less than an hour. Then all you do after that, Dave, is once a day you just sit down and you just look at one little part. It could be so each, each, as I described them, 10 minute writing burst. Each burst is one of the three things that I said. So one day you're going to write the teaching part of the first chapter. The next day you're going to write your personal story. The third day you're going to write two or three examples and you do that each day for 30 days and you've created a 10 chapter book. Speaker 2:     19:39       So since I hate to add, congratulations. Awesome job. So two things. First of all, I hate writing, so can I just record it and have someone else transcribe it Speaker 3:     19:49       even easier than that with technology today, and I actually talk about this in the book, you can actually record it into one of three different apps and the APP will spit out the transcription for you. So when I was three, Speaker 2:     20:04       those was one of those apps out. So people listening going, oh my gosh, I gotta, I gotta get this stuff. Speaker 3:     20:09       So there's a new dragon dictate that that is a simplified version of the dragon dictate that we all know and love and it literally will spit out the transcription of what you say within 24 hours, send you it, sends it to you an email. Speaker 2:     20:25       Super Cool. I got rid of mine. So if a person wants to get the workbook or the book, where do they go to get this? Speaker 3:     20:33       Well, it's really simple. I created a really cool link because we're doing this together. They just have to go to click funnels. Freebook just like it sounds like, and it's a free plus shipping offer. Everybody in this community should know that. It's a real book. I'm going to send the workbook is there and it will do everything that you need to happen. Speaker 2:     20:51       Awesome. Super, super cool. I know that's probably one of the biggest hurdles most people have is, is what you just said. I, again, I love the idea as far as the training, a story of your own, because we always talk about you need to be creating a story inventory anyways and so start writing even as soon as you get off this podcast to start writing down the titles of what some of your stories would be, you can always put these into the book later and then I love the idea as far as two to three stories of other people who they're, you've helped or have gone through the same type of Speaker 3:     21:20       process and ideally if, if you're doing, if you're writing a book about something, most times you're already an expert in it or you're already getting there, so you've already helped some people and if you want to talk about, let's say you turn this into a free plus shipping offer, you want to talk about the most amazing affiliates, you know, the, the early movers on your dream 100 list. Put your students' stories in the book and then ask them to promote your free plus shipping offer. Speaker 2:     21:49       Oh, that is awesome. The story about you. So, uh, that's, that's exactly right. Yep. Speaker 3:     22:01       And it really, really, it works so well to help people. But you know, the other thing that's really important if you do this right, so there's, there's an old saying in my business, your book will either promote you or expose you because I've seen a lot of people that write shitty books and I'm on a quest to stop people from writing shitty. Well, could we use this system? It won't be Shitty, but because look, you heard as soon as you realize what I was telling people, you went, oh, because that's what Russell did, right? He did some teaching. He did one of his own stories and then lots of stories of other people. Every great book is done the same way, but if you don't use this system, if you don't get this free book, you're going to end up writing a shitty book. And what most people do wrong, Dave, is they all think it should be just one long meandering journey. They actually don't write books that help. They write memoirs that hurt in there. Speaker 2:     22:55       Okay? I have to tell you a quick little story here because one of my very first things I ever did the internet marketing space years, Gosh, it's actually 10 years ago to this year was this program called legendary marketers and I went out and interviewed some of the most amazing marketers in the world and one of these guys actually had a book and I was so excited to read this book because I was so impressed by this guy and that's exactly what it was. It was as long memoir. I think honestly all he did was he took a Webinar and just had transcribed, put it together and that was his free plus shipping and it was the stupid his book and I'm like, really? You get so much more, so much more you could give and that's going to be their first real tangible thing they get from you. It was just a. I was just heartbroken. Speaker 3:     23:39       No know that I know who know. You and I are both avid readers, so we could probably sit here for the next hour and try and debate who first said facts tell, but stories. Probably one of the oldest, oldest in the whole sales world, but it's true and if you use the style we talked about it. A book becomes one quarter telling and three quarters stories. It's all about the stories that are in the book. Stories break belief stories, rebuild beliefs. I mean stories handle objections. It's everything and it's, it's. I think it's the most important part. Speaker 2:     24:18       I love it. Well, again, I think that your dips and everything else had been fantastic here. As we kind of get close to wrapping things up, what are the things would you. What are some other value nuggets want to make sure people get or where can they reach out to make sure they contact you? Speaker 3:     24:31       Yeah, so, so the, the biggest thing for any entrepreneur who is trying to attract attention in the crowded space that we live in today, the things that you can do with that book, what we could list in the end of this show, it's going to raise your credibility. It's the fastest route to going from, you know, an average authority to a true spurt. As Russell describes it. It's not that you should or shouldn't do it, you can't do it, there's a double negative for you. You really need to. And this book that I've put together, we've already helped over a thousand dollars. Authors write books using the system and it's super simple and at a bare minimum, just read through the book and you'll get it and the rest will take care of itself. Speaker 2:     25:20       I love it. Alright, so again, one of the great things Ken's providing you here is a resource that you can actually get this book, so can work and they actually get a copy of your book App. Speaker 3:     25:29       So of course for a limited time we don't have many left. We've got a free plus shipping offer. I want to help as many people as possible to avoid writing shitty book. So if you jump over to, it's really simple. It's W, a s free book dot Com. It's the initials of right? A salable book was be freebook Dot Com and grab a copy of the book and it'll lead you through a link to our open facebook. Got Speaker 2:     25:59       Questions. I'd be happy to help you. Awesome. Again, it's a free plus shipping off, which is always cool. I always recommend you guys check out other free plus shipping offers. We're huge advocates of these, of this type of a funnel that really works and so again, it's w a, S, b freebook.com, so w as in Whiskey, a as in apple, s as in Sam, b as in book, Freebook Dot Com and again, go ahead and check that out. Fall. Ken, you can reach out to him on, on facebook through that link as well. Again, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure talking to you and I appreciate just again you did exactly what you're telling him. What else do and that as you told everyone exactly how to do it, same type of thing you should do in your own books and now you need to go out and get Ken's book to figure out exactly how to do it for yourself. So again, I appreciate it a ton. Oh, it was great to hang out with Speaker 4:     26:44       you, Dave and I love to do more for you anytime. Speaker 1:     26:46       Thanks. Hey everybody. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to podcasts. If you don't mind, could you please share this with others, rate and review this podcast on itunes. It means the world to me. We're trying to get to as a million downloads here in the next few months and just crush through over $650,000 and I just want to get the next few hundred thousand so we can get to a million downloads and see really what I can do to help improve and and get this out to more people. At the same time. If there's a topic, there's something you'd like me to share or someone you'd like me to interview, by all means, just reach out to me on facebook. You can pm me and I'll be more than happy to take any of your feedback as well as if people you'd like me to interview more than happy to reach out and have that conversation with you. So again, go to Itunes, rate and review this. Share this podcast with others and let me know how else I can improve this or you can do to make this better for you guys. Thanks.

In this episode of Building Infinite Red, Jamon, Ken, and Todd touch on the fears, anxieties, and struggles of running a business. They share stories and thoughts on starting a business, managing stress, how success and failure impact focus, the difference between venture capital and other sources of funding, fear of missing out, and the importance of knowing what you stand for. Show Links & Resources YNAB: Personal budgeting software Four Yorkshiremen by Monty Python Episode Transcript TODD WERTH: So I thought a good topic today, one of the reasons because I'm personally interested actually, hear what Jamon has to say and Ken has to say, and of course I'm sure they're interested to hear what I have to say. But the topic is when you start a new business or you're an entrepreneur doing multiple businesses, or anything of that particular area. What are some of the biggest fears, anxieties, apprehensions, that you might have you know before the process, during the process, whenever? I find this very fascinating, because I imagine a lot of people, well maybe some people who are listening are experiencing these right now and A) it'd be great to hear someone else express the same thing so they know that they're not alone in this, and B) it's kind of interesting to think about yourself. It kind of, it's not something you typically sit down and think about, so if you two don't mind, that'd be a really interesting subject for today. KEN MILLER: Sounds good. JAMON HOLMGREN: Yeah. Well I think back to when I started by business. It was 2005, and I was working for a home builder at the time, so I had a, you know, decent job. It was an office job. I was doing I think cad design and marketing for this builder. Not really doing programming. But I decided that one of the things that ... well I had, prior to this time, I had thought, you know I'd be really nice to own my own business at some point. It'd be something that I would aspire to. And I think that part of that was my dad owning his own business and knowing a lot of entrepreneurs kind of played into that. I thought it would be an interesting thing. I've always been a little bit independent. Want to kind of set my own course. So I started thinking about doing this and talking with my wife, and at the time I had a six month old baby. That was my first kid, my son, who is now 13 years old. Around actually this time of year is when I decided that I was going to do this. What helped was an opportunity that came up. So the apprehension of how do I get my first customer was sort of already taken care of. My uncle had a bunch of work that he needed done, and he asked me if I wanted to do it kind of on the side, or as a business, and that gave me the confidence to pull the trigger and say, let's so this. Because I had a built-in customer right away. But I do remember the first month sending my bill over to him, and it was only eleven hundred dollars, and that was all I had earned that whole month was eleven hundred dollars. And that was a wake up call to me that, hey I can't just expect the money to come in, and that was definitely ... I sat up and noticed. TODD: Yeah, that's really interesting. So when you started ClearSight, that was your first company, correct? At that time? JAMON: That's right. Yeah, ClearSight. There were other points along the way where I was sort of I got kind of gut-punched. Many times along the way. One was when ... my first business was doing websites, but it was also doing CAD designs, so I had essentially two business, and the CAD design part of it, you know designing homes, designing remodels, those sort of things eventually dried up, because remember that was during 2008, 2009 the housing recession kind of came along and that impacted the designers first, because we were the first ones in the process. People stopped taking money, equity out of their homes to do remodels. They just stopped doing it. So basically the whole market dried up. I remember my uncle told me, "I don't have any work to send you anymore." And I had a few accounts myself, but they were pretty slow too. And I kind of sat at home for a few days and felt sorry for myself. But in typical Jamon fashion, I was like, well I guess it's time to go do this myself, so I went out and literally started knocking on doors at offices and stuff and handing out my business card. Wasn't too successful at that, but it was at least doing something, and then things turned around eventually. TODD: Since you had a new baby at home, and obviously you're married, and you're trying to support them. JAMON: Right. TODD: Did that add any worry to you at that time? JAMON: Yeah, for sure. It certainly did, because any worry that my wife felt was reflected back on me because I feel very a sense of responsibility that I need to be making sure that we're not losing our house. Making sure that we can keep food on the table, things like that. So that was a lot to process. My health definitely suffered because of it and a few other things, but there was a lot of stress involved with that. I think that if I were to go back now, knowing what I know now, I could very much have probably pulled out of it much faster. I could have found a better path, but you live and learn. TODD: I'm sure there's more to tell about that story, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts Ken. KEN: For me the biggest worry was always money. Right? I mean, since I came out here to Silicon Valley, I had the dream. I had the Silicon Valley dream for sure. I wanted to start my own company. And to a certain degree, the Silicon Valley dream as sold is not sold accurately. Right? It's sold as this sort of fantasy. And the truth of the matter is you have to have more resources than is reputed in order to do the Silicon Valley way effectively. You need to know VCs or people who know them. It helps to have affluent parents who can bankroll you not making any money for years and years and years. I'm luckier than most on all of those accounts, and even I found that very intimidating, challenging. And especially living in the Bay Area, once you have established a life in the Bay Area, the idea of not taking a salary for a couple of years is utterly terrifying if you don't have a big pile of money. In fact, I wasn't really able to do this until I had a little bit of a windfall from the Yammer acquisition to lean on. Basically just enough to let me barely scrape by for a year for which I'm still very grateful 'cause I probably wouldn't be here today if I hadn't had that. And there were some scary fricking moments. There've definitely been a few extremely close calls financially. So I don't ... that fear I think was justified and surmountable. Let me put it that way. Right? You can definitely figure that one out, but I'm not gonna lie. It can be super scary sometimes. For me, the biggest mental shift that got me where I am now is that I had always had in my head this sort of venture capital model, because that's what I knew. Right? Because that's the kind of company I'd worked for. I saw how that process basically worked. But it always felt wrong to me. Right? Like, I was always like, what's so wrong with profit? What's so wrong with actually making a business that can support itself fairly early on? And I think it was the Paul Graham post that was like, the difference between a start up and a small business. And a start up is specifically optimized for hundred S growth or nothing. JAMON: Right. KEN: And that's what venture capitalists want for the most part. Right? No venture capitalist wants you to be one of the nine or ninety-nine that don't make it. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: Nevertheless, the model is set up that way. The model is set up so that only one in ten or less have to make it. And so once I realized, oh no all along I wanted to make the lifestyle business, basically, the small business. TODD: I just wanted to point out that especially in Silicon Valley the term lifestyle business is a semi-derogatory term. KEN: Pejorative, yeah. TODD: Yeah to refer to a normal, actual business. KEN: Exactly. TODD: And I always found that amusing when they said lifestyle business it was insulting you, because you make a profit. I always thought that was funny. KEN: Yeah, right. It's sort of like the Silicon Valley model is for people who would rather be a billionaire or nothing. Right? It's kinda like a shot at a billionaire is worth way more to them then a pretty good path to a millionaire. Once I realized that that was the exact opposite of me, I was much happier and I could actually work towards something that mattered. Right? And not even the millionaire part, right? It's like, if that happens, that would be awesome, but it's more creating the environment that I wished that I'd had. JAMON: When it comes to fears and those types of feelings, do you ever feel maybe that you are missing out on those wild rides? KEN: Do I have FOMO for the- JAMON: Yeah, a little bit of FOMO. KEN: Sometimes. JAMON: FOMO being, of course, fear of missing out. KEN: Yeah, living here especially. I think that's inevitable. JAMON: Right. Because we're not set up for just rocket growth at Infinite Red. KEN: I've been at enough companies that ended up making everybody thousandaires or worse. Right? Or negative thousandaires in at least one case. I had a friend, he seemed like he was living the dream. This was way back when in the first boom. Right? He seemed like he'd lived the dream. Right? He was just an engineer at a start up and he was suddenly a millionaire overnight. And then within six month, he was a negative six hundred thousandaire with a gigantic tax bill. JAMON: Oof. KEN: The whole model has kind of lured a bunch of people into the stock option thing. This is what I'm talking about specifically. I think there is absolutely a place for the venture capital model, but the stock option compensation model that a lot of people have done, is kind of a raw deal in a lot of ways, but that'd be a whole other topic, so- JAMON: Yes TODD: Just real quick, I own tons of stock and stock options that are worth absolutely zero- KEN: Yes. TODD: But, if I ever run out of toilet paper, I am set. JAMON: So Todd, you started a business well before Ken or I, and you know I actually I don't know if I've ever heard the story of your very first business and how you went from being a software engineer at a company to owning your own business, and I'd like to hear about that from the perspective of the topic of this episode which is about fears, and uncertainty and things like that. TODD: Yeah. Yeah. That's great question, so I've owned three businesses. This hopefully is my last one here at Infinite Red. My first one was in 1999. We started, it was three of us, it was also a consulting company like Infinite Red which lasted for nine years. It was a little bit different. Real quick, we did mainly enterprise, not start ups, larger companies, that kind of stuff. And our model was kind of to be subcontractors. So we had a lot of relationships with other consulting companies. One of the things we did, is we did really hard things well. So all the other consulting companies, like especially at that time it's gonna sound funny, but you'd have companies coming to us saying, "Look, we're doing most of the project, but they want something on the web, and we have no idea how to do that." And we did. And we knew Visual C++ and we knew all sorts of things. And so we specialize. We were higher priced because of that, and we'd come in and do the fun parts, in our opinion, which was really great. This is circa 1999. That one wasn't ... there wasn't too much anxiety from it. It was a small company, so later I'll talk about most of my anxiety at Infinite Red come from my worry of the 25 families I'm responsible for. JAMON: Right. TODD: It's not so much myself, because I do not have affluent parents. Well, most of my relatives are dead now, but I never really worried about money. I mean worst case scenario, I can be a developer. I'm pretty darn good developer, and I can make good money at that. And I moved out of the Bay Area, so for me my lifestyle is much cheaper than it used to be. So I don't worry about that so much, but I do worry about everyone's families who work at Infinite Red. My first company, we didn't have that. It was all just high level people. There was three to six of us, depending on the time. And we kind of just slipped into it. We had our first few big customers before we even started. So that wasn't really stressful at all. The second company, which came after my first company, I went back and worked for companies, for other start ups as an employee, and that's how I met Ken. Ken was my boss. And I was doing that mainly just 'cause after nine years running your company, I was just kind of tired, and I wanted to be an employee for a while. And I did that for about three, three and half years. And Ken, sorry boss, it was super relaxing, easy. You work like seven and a half hours a day or whatever. KEN: This has been noted on your permanent file. TODD: You know, regular jobs often are pretty lax compared to start ups. As an aside, I was in a pizza parlor once, and I saw a sign behind the wall. It was obviously the pizza parlor was owned by a person, it wasn't a chain, and the sign said, the only thing more overrated then running your own business is pregnancy. Which is true, if you do it for low hours and high pay, you really should rethink that, but there are lots of great reasons to do it. Any who, my second company was venture capital backed company which means we didn't use our own money. It was intentionally designed to do the hockey stick which means go from zero to very high very fast, and we had investors. And we had to pitch to venture capitalists and angel investors, and we had all the kind of normal Silicon Valley stuff. And that lasted for about a year and a half, and I cherish that experience, because it taught me a lot about that process from the inside. It was completely a failure which is fine. The fears in that, once again, were not personal, because as I did right after that, I went and got a job with Ken. JAMON: Right. TODD: And I made plenty of personal money. And because we weren't investing our money, the VCs were, there really wasn't a lot of anxiety there. I would say the main anxiety there was performance. Meaning it's kind of depressing when you're failing, and sometimes you have a great success. We did one month, especially. And we were shooting to the moon for a whole month, and it was super exciting. So it was just kind of a roller coaster of anxiety for that kind of business. Yeah, Jamon? JAMON: I think it's really interesting to hear you and Ken talk about the idea of, well I can just go get a job as a developer. Because for the longest time, I didn't feel that I had that option. Whether that was reality or not, I don't know. I was basically, I kind of thought of myself as just building websites. I just built websites for people, and I didn't really think of myself as a software engineer. I just happen to be someone that happened to built websites. TODD: Knowing you Jamon, and the quality of engineer you are, you are completely wrong. You could have totally got a job, but I get why- JAMON: Yeah. TODD: -from your perspective you felt that way. KEN: Yeah, well and it's a matter of ... it highlights how important just knowing the scene is. JAMON: Right. Yeah, totally. KEN: If you know the scene, yeah if you're an engineer, even like an old rusty engineer, like we're going to be before too long. TODD: Too late, Ken. KEN: Right. JAMON: Too soon and too late. KEN: Even if you're an old rusty engineer, you can figure it out. Right? JAMON: Right, yeah. KEN: The demand is so overwhelming and so consistent and so pervasive that- JAMON: Yeah. KEN: -if you know sort of the ins and outs- TODD: Even you Jamon could get a job is what you're saying. JAMON: Even I could get a job. KEN: No, if you're half-way competent, and he's more than half-way competent, about 60 percent. JAMON: I appreciate it. KEN: No, it's- JAMON: 60 percent. Yeah. No, and to hear that now. It's something that is obviously more of an option now that I don't need it, but at the time it didn't feel like an option, and so especially when I started getting employees in 2009. And most of them were young. They didn't have much in the way of family, but they would obviously still have ... they needed jobs, and I felt that. I felt that in every part of me that if the business wasn't doing well, that I was failing them. And that actually drove me for a long time. I think if I'd had the option to go work for someone, or felt I had the option to go work for someone, I may have actually quit at some point. But I didn't. I kept the course there. KEN: I will say, that I'm glad that I did not know everything that I should be afraid of going into it. 'Cause there is plenty that you should be afraid of, and if I'd known all that stuff going in, I probably wouldn't have done it, and I'm glad that I did it. And if I had to redo it now, I would do it again. JAMON: Right. KEN: And that's an important distinction is that it's not that I would do it again, it's that only hearing the bad stuff at that point, would have been a disaster. TODD: Ignorance and hubris are the two best tools of the entrepreneur. JAMON: I feel like it's both more stressful and more scary than you think, but also you're more resourceful and more able to deal with it then you think. KEN: Yes. TODD: Hundred percent. I would say, talking to other people who are new to it, and I certainly had to learn this, the biggest problem is the buck stops here. Meaning in every other situation where you worked, you could always throw a problem up the ladder. JAMON: Yes. TODD: And when you're a small business person, you don't know accounting? Doesn't matter. Do it. JAMON: Someone's gotta do the accounting. TODD: Right, like there's literally no excuse. There's none, and you don't have that money just to pay for people to do it. KEN: I guarantee the IRS does not grade on a curve. TODD: No, they don't care about your excuses. KEN: Yeah. TODD: So Jamon, Ken, and I come from very different places. So Ken obviously went to Harvard. He's impressive on paper. I actually did not. I didn't finish college. I started making way too much money as a programmer to be honest. But when I first started out in 1996 as a professional programmer, you know I wasn't making tons of money, but it was plenty for me, because where I'm from, it's a lot of money. And at that time, I'd probably be more like Jamon meaning I didn't see myself as really deserving that kind of stuff, but this was in San Francisco in 1996. So I saw the first boom, and then I saw the crash, and then I saw the second boom. And after a while, you start to learn, although I don't have Ken's personal background. I do have Ken's professional background. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Yep. TODD: And so, one of the things I've noticed when talking to Jamon, because he's in Vancouver, Washington, and not around that stuff as much, is he feels a little bit like an imposter. He's totally not. And I bet even now in his mind he imagines that those people working at Google somehow have this huge, amazing, genius to them, and Ken's probably in the middle. He probably thinks some of them do. I personally have yet to meet one of these fabled geniuses. So the more you get involved with that, the more you realize they're just humans, and you're just as good as they are. KEN: That is true. JAMON: I think that's been something that I've become more and more aware of over the past several years. And it's funny because I don't usually think of myself as having imposter syndrome. I'm actually quite a confident guy, but in that regard I definitely did not really realize ... it felt like they were a different breed. They were a different type of person. And I always felt like I could probably learn anything, but there was still this degree of separation. But, anyway, coming back to the topic at hand, I think that sort of uncertainty and fear can be a motivating factor. But one of the things, so one of the things I'd like to talk about, is there are healthy ways and unhealthy ways to handle that stress, and I've done them all. Believe me. TODD: Like cocaine? JAMON: Maybe. TODD: Jamon's mother, he's totally joking. He's never done cocaine. JAMON: Yes, thank you Todd. And my mom does listen to this, so thanks Todd. TODD: He really has not, trust me. JAMON: You wouldn't want to see me on cocaine. KEN: Oh god. Yeah, that is the wrong drug for you my friend. JAMON: Yes. KEN: Oof. JAMON: But you don't want to transfer stress to clients. You don't want to transfer stress to employees. You don't want to transfer it to your significant other. To your family. And unfortunately, I've done all of those things, because I'm human and that's what happens. You get a lot of stress, and then you feel like you need to let off steam. One of the things that I actually really appreciated about this partnership is that we're able to let off steam with each other. And in a way, that is healthy. That isn't transferring to someone else who has nothing to do with it or has no power. Where I have two partners who are actually in the same spot, and they can help. It's been really, really helpful. So that is really important. I think how you transfer stress. Yeah, Todd? TODD: I agree. I don't kick the dog. I kick Ken. Which is better. The dog appreciates it at least. JAMON: You don't even have a dog, Todd. TODD: I don't have a dog, and I've never kick a dog by the way. I'd kick humans all day long, but never a dog. JAMON: This is true. TODD: Just to be clear. JAMON: Yes, Todd is the one who canceled a meeting because he had to bring a bird to the hospital that had hit his door, actually one time. TODD: It's true. It is true, and that bird is flapping happily today. KEN: As far as you know. TODD: I hope. Back to my story, because it's all about me. Anxiety at Infinite Red really does come around to team members mostly, and you two Ken and Jamon because I don't want to let you down, and I certainly don't want someone's family not to be able to have a Christmas because of something stupid I did, or because I was acting emotionally when I should have been acting rationally. That kind of stuff. JAMON: This year, me not having Christmas had nothing to do with you Todd, so I can let you know that. TODD: Jamon's house was burglarized and burnt down. Not burnt down, but set afire on Christmas Eve. KEN: Torched. TODD: So, if you're feeling good about humanity up to this point, now you can feel bad about it. So, there you go, but they're back in their house. KEN: You're welcome. TODD: Everything's good. JAMON: Yes. TODD: You're back in your house. Everything's good, and he has a wonderful family, and all is well. JAMON: Yeah, it's really nice to be back. Anyway, I cut you off. TODD: But so that's a lot of my anxieties about it. At my age, I'm 46, and I've done this a long time. I don't stress as often. Like I used to get very stressed out doing sales calls or that kind of stuff. I've done all that stuff enough where it doesn't really bother me too much. Even tough things where you have to be really tough with the client, or vendor, or something like that. It doesn't, I mean it bothers me temporarily of course you get the adrenaline going and no one likes that. But it's really the things that give me anxiety and up at night is if I make a mistake that will cause us not to be able to pay payroll. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: Now, one note. We've always paid payroll. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: But that is something- KEN: There's been some close calls. TODD: That is something that- KEN: Yeah. TODD: That makes me work harder, and it makes me worry. Me, personally, I could figure it out, it's not as big of a deal to me. KEN: Well, I think also a big stressor that I didn't ... it makes sense in retrospect, but it wasn't one that like occurred to me, is how hard it is to maintain focus over time- JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative) TODD: Yeah. KEN: -when you don't have a boss doing that for you. I was a small scale boss at my previous jobs, but this experience definitely makes me want to write a nice little note of apology to every boss I've ever had. Like, however bad they were, I have more sort of sympathy for what they were dealing with then I did before. TODD: That's so true. KEN: Yeah, and the surprising thing is how hard it is to cope with success. When you're doing well, that's when the monster of de-focusing really starts to rear its head. It's like driving a car fast. If you've never driven a car at 150 miles an hour, it's a different thing from driving it at 60 miles an hour. It takes a little getting used to that state, oh things are going well, but that doesn't mean that I get to take my eyes off the road. TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: So. CHRIS MARTIN: Can you guys go in a little deeper on how you manage some of these things? 'Cause you've talked about having the feelings of stress and fear, but maybe some of the ways that you manage it, a part from kicking Ken. KEN: That's Todd's favorite. TODD: Well, Ken mentioned that success can be hard to deal with, and I have a tried and true technique I've used for many years with dealing with the problems of success. And here it is. And I'll share it with you. I normally would charge for this advice, but I'm gonna share. Don't be successful. There you go. KEN: Yeah. TODD: You're welcome. KEN: That one we're still figuring out. Having co-founders you actually trust is probably the number one. TODD: Yeah, it's hard to do, and at one time in my career I said I would never ever had a partner or a co-founder again. And here we are, so. JAMON: I think getting together in person is important. Of course, we're a remote company. So I'm up here near Portland, and Ken's in the Bay Area, and Todd's in Vegas, but we did get together a couple weeks ago to talk. And there was a stressful situation going on, and that was something that we went through together in person. TODD: Well, we also hang out in zoom a lot. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: Every week. And that's similar. But, yeah having good co-founders who are your friends, and you become almost married at a point, because when you're in business together it is like a marriage, and you know everyone's finances. You know if someone's spouse is having problems with the way the company's working. You have to deal with that- JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- TODD: -at least as an auxiliary person in that particular thing. So it's a very intimate thing for sure. I definitely choose that very, very, very wisely. I've had bad experiences, and of course I've had great experiences here. JAMON: I think that one of the things that we actually do fairly well is we will say when we're stressed. You know, we'll say, "Hey, I am currently feeling a high degree of stress." And then the other co-founders can say, "Okay, what is causing this." And we can talk about it more objectively. And just saying it out loud sometimes is a way to kind of like let go of it a little bit. TODD: We also know how to fight which takes a while. That's a hard one to learn. JAMON: It is. TODD: But we've learned how to fight. Yell at each other, and know that afterwards we're going to be okay, and that's important. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: The trust that you would gain with a girlfriend or boyfriend or your spouse- KEN: Sibling TODD: -where you can have an emotional throw up as it were and know that you're still gonna be loved as it were. KEN: Well, and also it's sort of on the focusing issue, actually. It's relevant there too which is that I'm pretty ADD I would say. I think that's probably pretty common I would say for entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurship is one place where you can actually challenge your ADD tendencies. However, I also know it's like, "Hey guys, I'm having some trouble focusing and motivating on x, y, and z- JAMON: Right. KEN: -can I have help with knowing that there's not going to be any judgment coming along- JAMON: Right. KEN: -with that help?" JAMON: Right. Yeah. TODD: To be clear, it's all not roses. Sometimes one of us gets irritated with the other person because of these issues and- JAMON: Right. TODD: -but ultimately once we get talking to it, we're not super human. Sometimes I get irritated with Jamon or Ken and vice versa. But the whole point is, when you get to the end of that, you're supportive. JAMON: Another really important thing is to have some really core principles. Some kind of tent poles so-to-speak that you can come back to. One of the things that we really strongly believe is that the core of us three is one of the most important things about this company. And so we can come back to that. I mean, if the most important thing that we had was some technology or some financial goal or something like that, then it would put a lot of stresses on our relationship, but since we've made that relationship such a high priority, it's extremely important. And another thing, along those lines, is we recognize that we are human, and that sometimes it's actually a personal situation that's contributing to work stress. TODD: Yes. JAMON: You might have situation where maybe a family member has health issues or you're having trouble with a relationship, or anything along those lines, and we ... I was actually talking to an employee recently who talked about a personal situation that they were having and how it was contributing to their stress, and I had noticed the stress that they were going through at work, but I didn't know about the personal situation, and it's okay. I told them, "It's fine. It's a normal, human thing to have situations that arise. I understand. It's something that you can tell us, if there's something going on, you don't have to be specific. You don't have to tell us private information, but just tell us that something's going on, and we will do our best to be as understanding as possible." TODD: And it's a matter of trust. That particular person trusted Jamon. That's fantastic. It's trust that we build up between founders. It's trust with the team, and to some extent, trust with your customers, and your vendors. Especially with customers and vendors, if you can do that, that's fantastic, but the others you can do with time. Just to give you an example, trust. I try to be trusting even when I shouldn't be. I picked up this guy the other day, in my car, he gets in the backseat. I just picked him up. I didn't know him, and first he gets in, understandably he's like, "Thanks for picking me up, but how do you know I'm not a serial killer?" TODD: And I just looked at him. I'm like, "What's the chance two serial killers would be in the same car?" Pretty low. So, yeah trust is very important. Any other tools or techniques that you all have for dealing with these anxieties or stresses or whatever? KEN: Drinking. Drinking is important. Water. Water. JAMON: Lots of water. KEN: What do you think I meant? Oh, come one. JAMON: Yes, stay hydrated. KEN: Yes, stay hydrated. Yeah. JAMON: Actually, along those lines, I started working out a couple years ago, and that has been a really good help for my stress level. When I get through with a workout, I feel better about myself. I feel good. There's probably some endorphins or something that come with that. And it's really hard when you are really critically needed at work to take two hours to go workout, but it's also extremely important for your long-term health. And so you have to prioritize it very high. And you can basically justify it to yourself which I had to do with if I go and do this, I will be better equipped to handle the issues that come up, and it's so true. Working out has been a very good thing for my stress level. TODD: A lot of people might be worried about their finances or their spouse's opinion and that kind of stuff. Which can be super challenging, so you have to deal with that. Another thing that I've noticed is, and this is pretty common, especially in our world, and I have to remember that 110 years ago, Ken'll tell me a real number, but somewhere around there. Most people worked at home, and most people had their own business. They didn't call it their own business, they were just a blacksmith, and people paid you to hoove their horses or not hoove. JAMON: Shoe. TODD: Shoe. KEN: Shoe. TODD: Shoe their horses. Thank you. It's been a while since I've lived on the farm about 30 years, but anyway- JAMON: It's that a farrier or something? TODD: Huh? JAMON: Ken, isn't it- KEN: A farrier. JAMON: Yeah, it's a farrier. KEN: That sounds right. TODD: Whatever that means. Anyways, so you would just do that. You'd just offer your services and that was a home business quote unquote. But, you know, since we all grew up in the late 20th century or the 21st century, for our younger listeners, you know that has been not the normal but the minority. And so a lot of people I've talked with, they said, "Well, can I do that? Do I have the permission to do that or whatever?" And it is kind of hard to get to their skull like who are you asking permission from? There isn't ... there is the government who has rules, but despite what you might think about the government, the rules are actually fairly basic and the IRS of course wants you to pay the money, but that's actually not the difficult to be honest either. So it's just really an internal stumbling block. You don't have to ask anyone. You can go right now. Get a business license, and sell bottles of water at a popular park. Right now, and you technically have a small business. JAMON: Regarding the personal finances side of this, one of the things that my wife and I did early on that really helped was we did a monthly budget. So we used the tool called YNAB, youneedabudget.com, and we sat down every month together, and we entered all of our receipts and we had categories and we split everything up. We were kind of finance nerds during this time, and that was helpful, because it gave us a sense of control over our finances. We knew where we were. We knew whether we had enough money to pay the mortgage. We knew how much, we could specifically tell you what day we would run out of money if we couldn't bring anything in, and that was helpful. Now, sometimes the math brings its own anxiety, but at least you know where it is, and it's not this unknown out there all the time. Actually, more lately, we've gotten away from that. After almost 15 years of marriage, and I kind of want to go back to it, because there are some stresses that come from not knowing. TODD: Yeah, sometimes everything is just fine, but just don't know it, and you assume the worst because- JAMON: Exactly. TODD: -people do. So I have a question for Ken. I grew up very poor, just some background, but later in my early 20s and stuff, my family actually started doing pretty well. My mom and my step-father ran a couple businesses. My brother started businesses and has done very well for himself. So, although, in my younger life, we were almost less than working class, to be honest. Later in life, we had a lot of experience with business. So me being in business was very natural to me, and my family understood, and they actually didn't understand when I was working for someone else. It was weird to them, but Ken, I know from discussions with you, the opposite was true. From your family, there wasn't anyone who were business people and that kind of stuff, and it was kind of outside your culture. I would love to hear if maybe that caused any particular issues for you? KEN: Yeah, for sure. I grew up in what I would call kind of professional slash academic class household. Right? College degrees going very far back in my family. Doctors, lawyers, scientists, illustrators, artists, also but professionals of various kinds. Going back quite a while. There was a flavor of business being looked down upon a little bit, and that was definitely, even when I got to Harvard. There was that divide was still there even though Harvard certainly has both types. The professional type to kind of like, well I'm good at something. I'm really good at this, and I'm so good at it people want to pay me good money for it. And that's a perfectly good life. And I'm actually here to tell you right now, if you have those skills. If you are happy doing them, you're in a good position. Should you start a business? The answer is probably no. Right? I did it because I couldn't stand not doing it. Right? It was just this terrifying but enticing thing for as long as I could remember to be ... I just wanted to be on my own. I want to do this. Ah. Right. It was this dragon inside that I couldn't contain. In some degrees, it made me a bad employee. Sometimes. Right, because anybody who's not doing what they're sort of supposed to be doing is not happy. Right? Jamon, do you want to interject? JAMON: Oh, I just want to say in Ken's family if you say someone is a painter, that means that they are an artist, and they paint on canvas. In my family, if someone's a painter, that means they spray paint on houses. KEN: Yes. TODD: In my family, if someone's a painter you're like, "Oh, he's got a job. That's wonderful." KEN: Yeah, so the three of us we talk about this class stuff all the time because when you start talking with people who grew up in different backgrounds, you start to realize what your blind spots are. Like, I remember Todd saying, growing up people who went to the movies were rich or something like that. Todd, do you remember what some of your things were? TODD: Oh, there's a long list of what rich people do that most people would find amusing. KEN: For me, not only ... I grew up in a fairly prosperous town. I would say. Right, but I wouldn't call it, there weren't a lot of rich, rich, rich people, but it was prosperous. And then going to Harvard, of course you get exposed to all sorts, and you start to realize how high the ladder goes. Right? And that gave me I think a sort of warped perspective on life. And Todd's perspective was warped in a different way. And by sort of, not like the three of us, by any stretch of the imagination, now encompass an enormous swath of life experience. JAMON: No. KEN: We're all white dudes for one thing. Right? JAMON: Yes. KEN: But nevertheless, it gives us sort of perspective on things that helps. It blunts some of the fear. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: To have that breadth of perspective. TODD: I'd like to ask Ken, because your family culture wasn't business-oriented, and as you just mentioned, almost a little bit looked down upon business people, I guess for the crassness of it all. KEN: It wasn't overt, but it was definitely outside of our purview. TODD: And definitely your friends from Harvard who weren't in business school or that kind of thing ... do you, like for me. It's easy for me. The bar was so low. I surpassed almost everyone I grew up with long ago. JAMON: Yeah. Similar. TODD: I don't have to prove anything to anyone. KEN: Well, so at this point I don't care very much. At this point, I'm doing my thing and that's that. However, I will point out there is something very interesting about Silicon Valley. Which is that Silicon Valley is a business culture that was grown by people kind of like me- JAMON: Yeah. KEN: -from the professional and scientific culture. JAMON: That's true. KEN: And as a result, that is where, I think, I'm not a sociologist. I haven't studied this or anything, but my theory is that that's where that sort of disdain for lifestyle businesses comes from. I think it's seen as sort of a grind. Where you're getting paid for the brilliance of your idea, you're just getting paid for hard work. JAMON: Yeah, I think that this idea of a lifestyle business, which I don't have any negative connotation whatsoever. In my world, a lifestyle business sounds like a luxury. KEN: Luxury. TODD: Luxury. JAMON: Okay, we're gonna have to link to that YouTube video. TODD: Yes. JAMON: But some Monty Python there. But I think that's actually something that was really, really helpful was when we merged was the idea that we can design this business to be lower stress. That doesn't mean we take our eye off the ball, which we kinda did for a little while there. That doesn't mean that we don't work hard, cause we do when the situation demands it, but we can design the type of business where the general day to day things are not drudgery. They are things that we enjoy doing. That we're good at, and that we can contribute to the success of the business. And I think that that's something that's actually overlooked a little bit when you're owning a business that you do have the ability to change things. You have the ability to enact change. It may be painful. It may be hard. It might be expensive, but you can look at something and say, "You know what, this isn't fitting for me, and I'm gonna change it." Whether it's cutting off a client that's being too stressful. Whether it's hiring someone to do something that you're not good at. All of those things are things that you can do. My sister started a small WordPress website company. So she's building WordPress websites. And she asked me for a lot of advice along the way, because she knew I'd kind of- TODD: Is this Meredith, Jamon? JAMON: Yeah. That's right that's Meredith. And one of the things I told her was that you want to stay with your kids. You want to be at home. You want to build this business that does not interrupt those things, so make those very core priorities. When you make decisions, they should be based on whether they enhance that or take away from that. It kind of gave her permission to look at things through that lens. That you don't have to necessarily measure it on dollars and cents or even things like customer satisfaction. That may be a goal and you don't want to let people down, but ultimately you don't want to let your family down. And that's something that I think is really important. So for her, you know her husband's an engineer, a mechanical engineer. He makes good money. It's not something where they have to have the business, but she wanted something that challenged her while she was also able to be at home, and I think it's done that. TODD: And the people she worked with on her team are similar, correct? JAMON: Yeah, that's right. So she not only provided a business that works for her, but also for the people on her team. So she actually has people that do code. That do design. That do content. And in many cases they are people who stay at home with their kids. And that's kind of a cool concept that there could be a business that enables that. TODD: I think that super important to mention the reason why, because people think that their business has to be like they see on TV or they read about it in a magazine or a book or whatever, and it doesn't. What principles you base your business on is up to you, and then your job is to figure out a way to make that happen. I think it's awesome that she wanted to help herself and her team who want a particular lifestyle and still be able to have this business, and she's doing it, and that's wonderful. KEN: Yeah, and I think it's worth saying on the list of reasons to start a business, getting rich should probably not be your number one. If getting rich is your number one reason, well I mean that's fine, and depending on your personality, it at least has that as a possibility. JAMON: Sure. KEN: Whereas most jobs done. At least not on any sort of short time frame. The number one reason to do it is 'cause you want more control over your life. And that's why we did it. So the first year that I took off, when we were still trying to build an ap and we hadn't done the consulting yet, my daughter was two, and to save money we took less daycare. I had to still have some, 'cause we both work, but did less daycare. So I spent time with her. I cooked for the family. I found all these ways to save money, and I was sort of part-time house husband while this was going on, and even if the rest of this fails, right? Even if we crash and burn, the chance to have that year and do that will be with me the rest of my life. So, part of our mission here at Infinite Red, and something we've always agreed on is that we don't just want a successful business. We have to do that in order to make the rest of this work. And it's a perfectly good goal in itself, but that we also want to be an example of how work can work. Right? Not that there aren't others, but this is us. This is what we think work should be like. Not that it's never intense. Not that it's never hard. Not that it's some sort of walk in the park. It is not. But that it can co-exist with the rest of your life in a much more harmonious way than has been the model for 20th century corporate whatever. TODD: Yeah, there are other ways to run a business, all of them are wrong. CHRIS: Ken do you think that when we ... that struggle occurs when we move away from those principles and values and what's important to us as business owners or whatever that label would be? So like, when you move away from maybe wanting to spend time with your family or building a company where it fuels the lives of your employees. You know, do you think that fear and intention is magnified if you move away from those things? KEN: What do you mean by move away from those things? CHRIS: So that they're no longer a priority. Maybe you're making decisions that go against those values. KEN: That is definitely a source of stress. And the fact of the matter is, we are still a business. We still have to operate in the same environment that every other business does. And we have to compete against businesses that don't operate the way we do. JAMON: Right. KEN: And to whatever extent our values create, like I said, put us at a disadvantage, and I think sometimes in the short term that is true. We sometimes have to make hard choices in order to survive and work another day. And I think there's probably kind of a core, not exactly explicitly articulated, there's some core that we won't push past, but when we have to hopefully temporarily do things that are different from our stated values. Yeah, that's rough. Absolutely rough. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: The trick is to kind of figure out ... this is why it's so important to figure out what your real values are. Right? And we've had to sort of narrow it down in certain places, because if you have this long list of things that you claim to care about, but that's not actually true. Right? Then, when it really comes down to it, there are some things that are more core than others. If you die on the hill of one of the non-core ones, and it causes you to fail, that is an unacceptable outcome. And so, figuring out which hills you're really willing to die on and which hills you're not willing to die on is super important and there's not really a shortcut. It's something that you figure out as you go along. TODD: If you're getting chased by zombies through a forest and the zombies are starting to catch up to you, sometimes you have to give grandma a cookie and push her down the hill. That's all I'm saying. It sucks. It's against your principles, but grandma's lived a good life, and she loves those cookies. Fact. JAMON: I don't even know how to follow up on that one, but one of the things I was asked early on when I started my company was, what are your core principles and I kind of fumbled through an answer, and I don't even remember what it was at the time. But I actually think it was probably not reasonable for me to even know what those were at the time other than personal values, but over time, taking lumps here and there and bruises, and the stress and anxiety of various situations, it's made it very clear what is really important. At the time I was young, I was idealistic. I didn't really understand what could go wrong. What mattered. What didn't. But I think that all of those stresses and fears eventually taught me a lot of things and so in a lot of ways, even though they kind of sucked at the time, they were necessary to get me to who I am today. You know, I don't want to go back and relive them, but I wouldn't trade them away. TODD: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well that was super interesting to me. I knew some of that. I learned some new stuff which is always fun, and I hope it has some value to the listeners for sure. You know, our experience. At least it's hopefully an interesting story if nothing more. JAMON: Absolutely.

The Wolves' Den EU PvP Stream archive, "As Good As Gold" Screenshot Contest announced, FFXIV Companion arrives in July, we cover GamerEscape's E3 2018 interview with Yoshida and Soken, we discuss the Dengeki E3 interview with Yoshida, our thoughts on future Ultimate content in Stormblood, we cover an anonymous Reddit post about RMT and the selling of content runs, and Developer's Blog. Yelta and Rubicon host.

Shyn and Flattus kick off Musical May with a brief history of Composer of FFXIV Soken!

Episode Transcript CHRIS MARTIN: To kick off this episode, let's start with introductions and the hardest project you've ever worked on. JAMON HOLMGREN: Hi, my name is Jamon Holmgren and I'm one of the co-founders of Infinite Red, Chief Operating Officer. Chris asked what's a difficult project that I've worked on in the past and I think early on when I was first sort of getting outside of just building marketing websites, I took on a project for a social media platform. Of course, this was probably 2009, Facebook was sort of coming into its own and they wanted to build a social media. It was a guy that really didn't understand what social media was. He was on no social media platforms himself. He was an older dude who was annoyed that his daughter-in-law kept inviting him to the Facebook and he did not want to deal with that. So he decided instead that he was going to build his own, so he wouldn't have to join Facebook. It was ... it sounds kind of ridiculous and made up, but I swear this was an actual project that we did. KEN MILLER: Well, that is my kind of lazy. (laughter) Really, I mean I'm serious. Where you will recreate the site, from scratch, in order to not have one annoying experience. Ken Miller, CTO/CFO, founder of Infinite Red. I'm trying to think about a hard project. For me, the hardest projects are the ones where you have to keep at for years. A massive, blast through it, kind of hard project is much easier. I've always been a little ADD and I think that some people thrive on that emergency situation, but a long haul where you have to keep at something for a long time is harder. In terms of work technical things, a couple companies ago, we had a very email dependent company and so we had to get a huge number of emails sent in a very narrow window every day. That was a very long back and forth process because you have to keep up with the amount that you are sending out physically, you have to manage the deliverability, you have to monitor your changes and make sure a small change in your rendering doesn't completely blow up your delivery window. And so the process of managing that over time definitely taught me a lot about how you set something up so you can do it over time. TODD WERTH: How many emails did you send out Ken, just curious. KEN: I think we were at 3 million. This was pre-Mailgun, pre-AWS. This was, we had to actually size the hardware- TODD: Is that per week? KEN: Appropriately. Every night. And it had to be finished in about a two hour window. TODD: So you're responsible for most of the spam in the early 2000s. KEN: Yeah, that was me. I'm sorry. (laughter) My bad. Delivering legitimate email is actually pretty tricky because of all the anti-spam measures that are a necessity of modern communications. So that was probably, in terms of the technical project, that has been the most challenging. That, organizationally, was the most for me. TODD: Hi, I am Todd Werth. I'm the CEO and the founder of Infinite Red; long time listener, first time caller. So Chris asked us to talk about a hard problem we've had in the past. So I think most hard problems I've dealt with in the past haven't necessarily been technical, because even though they're difficult, they're fairly straight forward to go through. Some just take a little longer. KEN: That's true. TODD: Most of the problems have been human related. One that comes to mind, and I'm sure there are better examples but, circa 1998, 1999 or something, I did a project for the San Francisco 49ers. The scouts would go out preseason and they would scout out new people and they would go all over the country and they would take notes. Traditionally this was done on paper and then when they finally made it back to the home office they would go over their notes with whomever and what not. So we were developing a system where we gave these peoples laptops for them to take out and then when they got back to their hotel room they would hook up to the phone line and use a modem and upload the data to the database; which was hugely advantageous to the San Francisco 49er corporate office. The problem is, none of these gentlemen have every used a computer before. Didn't know how to use a mouse, didn't know how to use a laptop, so the challenging part there ...actually, a colleague of mine, his name was Milton Hare, he did the training and taught them the very basics of using a computer. That was actually quite challenging. The user interface that we designed had to be geared towards that. It had to be, not just simple, but absurdly simple. It was very fascinating. The bad part of that project was that I got to see a lot of data on professional football players, including things like their criminal records and I will not go into it, but it's not a pretty picture. CHRIS: What we're going to do in this episode is we're gonna look at the art of doing difficult work in three main areas: extreme personal support, collaboration, and transparency. But before we get there, what is difficult work? We've had a couple of different responses. We've had technical, we've had human, but what is difficult work? TODD: I would say...that's a hard question. KEN: Difficult work is work that is not easy. (laughter) TODD: Yes, Ken. That's why we have you here. It's tough to say. As far as from our culture and our perspective, difficult work is what's difficult for individual people. So for example, I'm an engineer and designer, not a sales person. Jamon is also an engineer, not a sales person, but Jamon and I for a long time did sales together. That is difficult work for us, we didn't come natural to it, we didn't have any experience with it. So one of the things we decided early on is, we have a couple of rules. One, you don't have to do something the way other people in the world do it. We're engineers, we're doing sales, we approached it from an engineering standpoint and we engineer our sales process. Later we can talk about that. Two, is anything that is difficult for individuals, they shouldn't be doing alone. They should never be alone on an island. If someone, whatever it is, talking to a tough client, dealing with a tough technical problem, doing something that's outside of your comfort zone such as sales or maybe giving a presentation or whatever it is, we do at least in pairs or more. It's one of the things I really, I beat the drum beat with our team is, if there is something you're dreading, use the buddy system and get people to be there with you because that helps a lot. For example, in our sales calls, Jamon and I would do this thing where if I'm talking and I'm starting to fumble, he would interrupt me and take over, or if I felt like I had nothing to say and I was having a particularly anxious moment or something, Jamon would take over and we would support each other that way. Eventually we became pretty decent sales people. KEN: If I were to take a crack at defining difficult, I would say, something like work where you don't already know how you're supposed to do it. As distinct from hard work, for the purposes of discussion, I would define as more you know how to do it there's just a lot of it and you need to do it quickly or intensively for some reason. One of things that we actually like to do around here is turn hard work into difficult work. Find a way to automate in terms of process or literally automate in terms of code, things that would otherwise be hard work. It's not always possible, but we try to when we can. JAMON: I have a personal example of this, wasn't done within Infinite Red per se, but on Christmas Eve I suffered a house fire and it obviously was quite traumatic but one of the things we have to deal with as sort of a fall out of this house fire is submitting personal items to insurance for reimbursement, to kind of restore what we had. It's a very labor intensive process, to go to the insurance company's website and individually type in items because most people with a normal sized home would have thousands of items. The restoration company had done a spreadsheet for us and they had done a lot of the work, where they had gone through, and I would characterize that as very hard work, where they had to go through a bunch of soot-stained things and inventory them, take pictures of them, describe them in a spreadsheet. They did a really good job with that and they put it into a spreadsheet, but to put those items in was still a manual process of transferring from a spreadsheet over to the State Farm website. I decided that, maybe what I'll do is I'll figure out some way to automate that and that took me like an hour. I could've gotten a lot of things done during that time, I could've entered quite a few items in that amount of time. It took a lot of frustration, of like going down the wrong road, and kind of reverse engineering the web app. But once I had it done, I got it to work and I ran this cURL script for like 45 minutes and at the end of 45 minutes we had 3,000 items entered into the website. So this was a situation where we could've just buckled down and done the hard work, but instead of doing that I did more difficult work of thinking of a way to automate it and that was a net positive. KEN: And if the FBI or State Farm are listening, we had no knowledge of this. (laughter) TODD: State Farm is definitely not listening. KEN: For the record. TODD: Jamon, two questions. One, do you think State Farm intentionally makes it super hard to enter items that they're going to reimburse you for? Two, how long do you think that would take you if you hadn't automated that? JAMON: You know, we've been asked that before. I don't actually think that's the case necessarily, because I've been involved in enough software projects where you're not intentionally making something difficult for users, but when you don't use it, when you are not the end user, when you are not the person sitting there whose been through a fire who has to go through it and do it. It's not as easy as it seems when you're testing it with 14 items, 14 test items. I think actually this speaks more to a lot of what we do where yes, entering 8 dummy items in the course of testing it on localhost, it's actually a pretty good experience. They've actually done a pretty good job of making that pretty decent, but the overall user experience of a real person in a real position of needing to do this- KEN: For a large loss, not just like hey someone stole my bike, but yeah ... JAMON: Exactly, it falls on it's face. So I actually don't think at all that this was intentional. I think that it's entirely within the realm of possibility that this is simply they haven't user tested. It's a fairly new system, hopefully they'll add bulk import at some point. As far as the second question which is how long do you think it would've taken to enter those items. I think I'd gotten through maybe a couple hundred in the previous hour. It was taking me probably between 15 seconds to 30 seconds to enter each item. It would've taken a long time and been very tiring. TODD: We'll give State Farm the benefit of the doubt. KEN: I think this impulse, this is exactly the kind of impulse that leads some people to computers, to programming. This allergic reaction to tedium and repetition and when you find computer programming for the first time, if you're that kind of person who hates that sort of tedium, you're like 'this is the best thing that I've ever seen in my life,' right? I only have to think in enough clarity about what's happening to describe it to the computer, and then it'll do it for me. That's a really powerful feeling and as you get into it of course you discover that you've just traded one problem for another problem, but we're the kind of people who find that to be a higher class, more interesting, better, more rewarding problem. CHRIS: There was an intriguing phrase used the other day: We make difficult things doable through extreme personal support of each other. So can you paint a picture of what extreme personal support means to you at maybe the founders level and then maybe at the Infinite Red team level? TODD: Who said that Chris? CHRIS: That was the brilliance of a guy named Todd Werth. TODD: I do not recall saying that. I wouldn't phrase it that way, even though I literally phrased it that way. (laughter) I don't remember saying that, but it makes sense. It's not only do we give people support when they're doing work that's difficult for them including all of us, and including the three people here as well. Let me tell you a little story. When I was a young man I worked in a warehouse, I drove a forklift around at a job. One thing I noticed in that job, it didn't suit me very well because I like to talk and I like to think about stuff and it was just very tedious. What I noticed a lot of the people in the warehouse, all different ages, young person like myself all the way up to older people, is a lot of people in the warehouse were not in the right job. This one gentleman would constantly get in trouble and the bosses did not like him because he loved to chat and he was really good at it and he was really personable and I have no idea why he was in the warehouse, it made no sense at all. Later on he went to become a successful real estate agent, which is completely appropriate. Now this company I worked for, it was a big company, it was one of the largest companies in the state, so it's not like they didn't have a place for this gentleman to work well, so he ended up leaving. The reason I tell that story is because you have to know everyone individually and what's hard work for one person is not hard work for another. If it's not hard work for another person, one way they can support people rather than just direct interaction is for them taking on jobs that other people find hard. So that's kind of support and of course there's just day to day, I will show up with you on the battlefield, type of support and that kind of stuff. JAMON: I think one of the ways that this manifests itself is how we deal with failure and the inability to get something done here. We're not quick to reach for blame the individual who's there. Sometimes that's the case where someone just falls down and they kind of do their own thing and that needs to be corrected and move forward. TODD: We so don't look to blame. JAMON: We don't look to blame. No it's really, let's look at this from a collaborative approach. How can we, as a group, do this better in the future? How can we adjust our systems? One of the things I don't like is to identify a gap in our system, for example, and then say that the answer is that the people involved need to just try harder. I really don't like that answer. Unfortunately that's something that a lot of lazy leadership will do. They'll just be like, 'you need to get your act together,' and that's the answer. The reality is that's often not the answer. The answer is usually to work with the system until it's at a point where doing the right thing is the easy path, where doing the right thing is the natural and intuitive path. That takes thinking, that takes understanding the problem, it's harder for leadership to accomplish that. KEN: It is occasionally the right answer though. TODD: It sometimes, sure. KEN: But not very often. It's rarely that simple, but I think one of the hard things that I've found in leadership was actually saying to somebody, 'Look, you need to step up. You have what you need right in front of you, the next part is up to you.' Actually saying that is part of it. I think what Jamon is referring to is that if the support is not there, then saying that is meaningless. JAMON: Yes. TODD: Well, I mean, it's like someone is pushing a rock up a hill and you're just saying you need to push harder, push harder. When the person's telling you and you're not listening, why don't I just walk over the hill and get the rock that's already over there? You know what I mean? So- KEN: Yeah, I completely agree with that. TODD: I do agree that asking somebody to step up in a real way, not just a nose against the grindstone type of way. KEN: When you get to the point where you've got all of the easy rocks on one side and what we actually need to do as a team is get this one huge freaking rock on the other side of the hill, and some people are not pushing with you, that has to be addressed. JAMON: Right KEN: But it's much smaller part of the pie than I think some management philosophies would tell you. TODD: I personally convince everyone that pushing rocks is one of the neatest things in the world, it's a rarity, and for a low price they can push my rocks for me. (laughter) JAMON: I think one of the things Ken has said in the past is what we want to be is a high support, high expectations company. Low support, high expectations is just toxic. KEN: That's a sweat shop. JAMON: Yeah, it's a sweat shop. High support, low expectations is a nursery and low expectations, low support that's- KEN: I don't even know what that is. CHRIS: How does this picture of extreme personal support enter your relationship as the three founders? JAMON: I can kind of personally attest to this. There are certain tasks that I'm well suited to, my personality, that I enjoy doing. There are other ones that it's like pulling teeth to get me to do and that's just been exacerbated since I had the house fire and am kind of displaced from my normal routine and I really just want to focus on the things that I really enjoy doing. What we did, actually earlier this year, up until this point we've made a lot of decisions together, we've done a lot of things together and that's was appropriate for the first couple years of Infinite Red. But we've gotten to a point where we kind of understand each other, we kind of have a lot of aligned shared goals and we've actually started to specialize. This was a way for Todd and Ken to support me, in that Todd could focus on a lot of team-oriented things and Ken's been doing a lot of things with the financial and bookkeeping side of the business, which I am not good at. I can focus more on business development and that's actually the part of the business that I find really interesting, so rather than just telling me, 'work harder at managing your projects, work harder at being an account manager, work harder at doing these other things,' which yeah, I could work harder and do a better job. Instead of doing that we've found a solution that wasn't centered around just working harder it was centered around doing things that we felt effective at. TODD: As we are three founders and we govern as a quorum of elders as it were, as opposed to a hierarchical company, supporting ourselves, each other, the three founders, is just as important as supporting the team in my opinion. When there is a financial problem, thankfully we haven't had too many of those, we all have to step up and so we tend to understand each other's personal finances, each other's personal stuff. It's almost like a pseudo-marriage in a way, although there are three of us so it'd be a polyamorous marriage in this case. It's a requirement to be more, I don't want to use to word intimate, but intimate in each other's lives and I think we're really good... What's cool about three as opposed to two or one, for example, because Jamon's done one and I've done one, I've been in another company ...but what's cool about three is, typically it's one person having a communications problem or arguing or having difficulties with another person and the third person mediates. It's either Jamon and I are having an argument and Ken mediates or Ken and I are having an argument and Jamon mediates. Hey wait- KEN: Wait, when do you mediate, Todd? (laughter) TODD: I don't think I've ever mediated, that's funny. KEN: I don't think you have actually. I'm noticing a pattern here, yeah. JAMON: That's not true. TODD: But it is totally true. But it's okay. I tend to draw lightning as well away from people and because I deserve it. I don't know if that answered your question, but I think it's uber important, sorry, it's Lyft important that we do that. (laughter) You know, it starts and then we can all support the team if we are supported ourselves. JAMON: It sets the tone, all the way down and we have to. We have no other way of working. We have to support each other and it's not just when we're having interpersonal problems with each other, but also when someone's just literally having a tough time. What I think we've done really well as a founder team is go into our shared channel and post, 'I'm having a tough time.' It can be for any reason, it can literally be like, I didn't sleep very well last night; I just am so bored with this task, I cannot get started with it. All those things are valid and the answer is never just suck it up, or if it is, it's one of those things where it's an empathetic suck it up. If that makes sense. It's like, I totally get it, I understand where you're at, we really just need to get this done. And sometimes that's what you need, you need a little boot in the rear and that's something that you can take from the other side too. It's been great, really, the last two and a half years having that. TODD: Obviously we're talking about supporting each other as founders, but it's the same with the team. One key thing is if someone is vulnerable, they say they've made a mistake, they say they're having a problem, even if you personally think 'is that really a problem?' Or whatever, it doesn't matter. Whatever your personal feelings are is irrelevant. If you stomp on that person, if you make fun of that person, if you tell them to suck it up buttercup, everyone, not just them, the entire team will contract. They will put up a little more walling around them and they won't do that in the future. They'll do it, they just won't do it around you. It is hard because we're all emotional beings and sometimes you have an emotional reaction to something. But you have to be super careful to not ...when that flame is just starting you need to be very gentle with it and not blow it out. KEN: It's more than just avoiding stomping on people, not that Todd was saying that's all it was, but you have to go out of your way to solicit, to get people to talk about what's going on with them, to check in with them, to reiterate that you're available for that. You can't say it once and assume that everyone will remember that, they won't. Right? People's own internal dialogue about how worthy they are, all that stuff will keep coming back if you don't actively do it. Also, we will make mistakes sometimes, right? So you have to keep doing the active things as well to keep the ship steered in the right direction. TODD: When we make mistakes it's important that we apologize to the team. Not fakely like 'oh, I'm so sorry.' Everyone can smell fake, but if you're genuinely made a mistake because you had an emotional moment and you didn't act appropriately, you have to apologize to them as well. CHRIS: So the interesting thing as you're talking, I get a sense that this isn't something that you just read in a book and you're like, 'I'm an expert at this.' I sense that there are some really real stories behind learning what it means to be not only supporting others but to feel supported. TODD: Yes, for sure. Ken actually is super good at advice in this kind of thing, having been a leader in the past. Typically, leader of only senior people in the last two jobs. Actually, the last one I had some more junior. Infinite Red, when we first started, we had quite a few junior people, so that was a little new to me. One of the things you have to learn ...leadership is hard by the way, I just want to interject that. Leadership is very difficult, it's hard work and that's why we get the support of each other. We not only get the support of the three founders, but the entire leadership team here at Infinite Red and there's a variety of people: Gant Laborde, Shawni Danner, Jed Bartausky, Justin Huskey. It's difficult and not only are we supporting each other, we're coaching them, especially the more junior leaders on how to do it and one of the things Ken said and it's just one of the great gems of wisdom that he gives, is he goes "you have to remember you have very wide arms, when you swing them you hurt people." So you don't have the luxury to be how you were when you were as an employee. I could say things as an employee, I enjoy making people laugh, it's one of my things. I can do a lot of things as an employee that I simply can't do as a leader because when I say something it's taken much more seriously, whether I meant it or not. When I hear other managers, let's call them, say something like employees suck, it's like, 'no they don't, you suck.' Employees don't suck. That's crazy, that's like the coach of the San Francisco 49ers saying my players suck. Well, you chose the players, you're coaching the players, so they don't suck. KEN: One of the things that we do when we're working on a difficult project as a team is make sure there's an owner. One of the things that will kill any difficult project is diffuse responsibility. Partly what we're striving for is that everyone can take responsibility for something. Everyone can be like, 'I'm going to execute my part of this as skillfully as I can,' but if there's not one person who owns the whole vision, it's going to fail. Almost guaranteed. Creating an environment where it's okay for that owner to say, 'hey I need your help to get this done.' Where the culture is like, somebody needs something from you and they specifically ask you, that you try to do it. And that makes ownership less scary. One of the things that I've seen go wrong, if someone is given responsibility but no power, no ability to actually follow through on that responsibility- TODD: That happens all the time. KEN: That is the most demoralizing position, possible. TODD: That's toxic. KEN: Yeah, so that's how you kill your budding leaders by saying 'hey get this done and by the way, all these people over here have their own priorities and they're not going to help you.' That is the worst. So, assign ownership and then back them up. That's been one of the keys to getting certain things done. Chain React is a good example of that. Chain React is our conference for React Native in Portland this July 11-13. So we did it first last year and now we're doing it again this year. Shawni, who basically runs it, had ever run a conference before, had never been to a conference before, but is good at just marshaling resources and taking charge and that's a great example where she could pull on whoever she needed for help. When it came to actually knowing specifically what to do for other peoples' expertise, like we flew somebody up who was a serious foodie, to go and test the caterers, for example. JAMON: That was our team member Derek Greenberg and Derek is such a foodie and it was just a joy to watch him work on that. KEN: He had the most comprehensive report for that kind of selection process that I have ever heard. It was amazing, anyway. None of these things that we're saying are we perfect at. We're not, we don't hit this every single time and I hope that we're not saying that's the standard. What we're saying is here's our guiding star, here's what we try to do, here's how we evaluate whether we're doing the right thing or not. So this is how we nurture leadership within the team, is to say 'here's what we need you to do, and by the way, the team is your oyster.' You can go and pull in what you need in order to make this happen. **CHRIS: This is really bringing up a really interesting point now, we've got this extreme personal support but then when you add the component of leadership and helping each other out, it introduces the layer of collaboration. So how is collaboration different from extreme personal support? TODD: You can have a group of people who hate each other and they can collaborate if they're given the proper motivations. This happens all the time in corporations every day. Sadly, many people work at those corporations. So I don't think those are necessarily required for each other. I do want to digress just for one second. So Ken was saying how we try to give people in leadership positions or in a leadership role in a particular project, whatever it is. We try to do empowering stuff, but we're not perfect at all. One of the coolest things about having Ken and Jamon around is when I do something boneheaded, typically Monday-Friday, they let me know and they help me get through it and they identify it and on the flip side for whatever reason the team is pretty comfortable talking to me. It's just my personality, I talk to people a lot. And so if they have a problem with say Ken or Jamon, they'll let me know, and then I go talk to that person or we talk and try to do it in the most supportive way possible with the goal of improving that person's, how they're performing as a leader and that's awesome because we're all human so having the support. For the team it's the same way. A lot of programming, I wouldn't say design because design's a little different, we do design and development. A lot of development shops are kind of little dog eat dog, kind of situation. People can be arrogant, they can make fun of other people's work, and that kind of stuff. We really hire and try to promote a, you can be critical and explain problems, but do it in a supportive way and that can't be in a mission statement, it can't be something you announce in a meeting. They have to live it every day and especially new people, it takes them awhile to get deinstitutionalized and understand that you can make mistakes, you can put your head above the fray and it will not get chopped off. Every once in a while someone does and I have a private conversation with them and let them know how they were really not being supportive and our team's awesome, they all want to be. It's almost never malice, it's always just they miscommunicated and they didn't understand what they were doing. KEN: Well people are messy, right? That's just the nature of the beast. JAMON: This highlights one of the aspects of almost everything within Infinite Red and that's where we try to design things for iteration over perfection. So even things like support, supporting our people we are iterating on how to do that. We're trying to have a feedback loop, there has to be some level of learning from our mistakes and then continually getting better. There are some things where someone will take on a task as a group that we decide, were going to do this thing and it's actually a very difficult technical thing or it's a very difficult societal thing, where we're going to build a new AR system or something and the tools are not there and we have to build all that. So there are hard technical things that are... KEN: There are, but- JAMON: But I think you're right Ken, in the interpersonal stuff kind of always comes back to that, as far as the things that end up feeling very difficult and very hard. KEN: So just to take that, so let's take like, the Manhattan project. TODD: Why not, take it... JAMON: And of course that was the project in World War 2 where they were developing the nuclear bomb. KEN: Right, so definitely some complicated ethical angles on that one, but how do you do that? Well, you attract the world's greatest scientists and put them in one place in New Mexico, and then you give them the tools that they need to work with and you give them a goal that you can align on. In this case, win the war. TODD: Kind of like Breaking Bad. KEN: Boy, our examples ar going really dark here. (laughter) TODD: Well they brought world class scientists to New Mexico- KEN: Let's pick a better one because it still works, right? If you're not just one person sitting in a room, working on something hard. Not to take anything away from that because a lot of amazing things have come out of one person sitting down with a problem. I think that's a different question than what we work with ever, right? I think we could probably have a whole podcast on how do you recognize a good engineer for example and I think that's an interesting question but it's a little different from the question of how do we as a company work on that. Because that really is about: how do you set up an environment where people can do their best work? And how do you hold people accountable? But also make sure that they are not held back by lack of resources. And those resources can be physical, tangible but in many cases they are emotional resources or organizational resources. Especially in a software business, I think that it's exaggerated in a software business and that dynamic also is worth a whole podcast because of the dynamics of software and how they're different. Because there's nothing to buy, right? Once you have the computer, you're done. What that leaves is all these other kind of softer, squishier resources that people need to do their best work. JAMON: One example of this is an internal tool that we've been working on that is intended to increase the efficiency of certain types of tasks. It's not something that's open source at this time, so I'm not going to go into a lot of detail, but I asked the team that was behind it why we weren't necessarily realizing some of the gains that we had anticipated to start with and interestingly, a lot of the responses were, really had nothing to do with technical issues or anything like that. It was policy related things. Some things that we were doing that were sort of handcuffing them in some ways and there were reasons behind those, there were sort of organizations reasons, strategic reasons behind some of those policies, but it allowed us to look at the end result of this difficult problem that we were trying to solve, and make some decisions based on values and trade offs that were more strategic in nature that we didn't realize were holding them back as much as they were. So that's an example where we had a hard problem and, unbeknownst to us, we were making some decisions that were making it more difficult for them. CHRIS: When does extreme personal support diverge into collaboration? Todd mentioned that you can hate the people that you're with and still collaborate, but what does successful collaboration look like? TODD: I would say successful collaboration is a multi-faceted thing. One, is the stress level of the people doing the collaborating. Two, the most obvious, is a successful work output of that collaboration. Meaning you accomplish your goals, hopefully in a creative, high quality way. And then three, from a business standpoint, that it was the return on an investment of that collaboration was good. JAMON: I think those are good kind of high level metrics that you can use. Another way to do this from a more granular level is to watch how people interact. So some people, for example me, may come into a meeting and may want to kind of expose that this other person is not doing their job or something like that and that's not a very particularly constructive way to approach this. But if you watch the successful collaborations that happen, they go into the meeting with a question and they go into the meeting, we have a challenge in front of us. How can we solve this? They get the people involved that need to be involved and don't make the meeting too big, but they make it just big enough and that's a characteristic of a good collaboration when everyone can go into it with an understanding of a problem, be able to provide their perspective and then the group can come to a conclusion. It's part of this overarching concept of psychological safety that we talk about a lot at Infinite Red that leads to better and better work. CHRIS: We've got extreme personal support, we've got collaboration, what about transparency? How critical is transparency in difficult work and in doing remote work? JAMON: One of the things about transparency that's important, or why transparency is important is this idea of trust. Because trust underlies a lot of dynamics within a company and if people feel like you're being purposefully opaque, they may feel that you're hiding something, they may feel that you don't trust them with the information, you don't trust their opinion, you don't trust ...and then when you don't have a high level of trust than a lot of other things fall apart. You don't get that collaboration, you don't get a lot of other things that you really need. So transparency is a prerequisite to building that trust. When we're able to be open and honest with our team about struggles or how we approach things or issues, were not necessarily saying wide open, everything is just hanging out there, but at the same time we do want to have a high level of transparency and ultimately we have to actually trust our team in order to do that. It can't just be something artificial, it has to be something where we actually do trust our team. Again, it's like there's not this formula where you just say do a whole bunch of transparency and everybody will trust you. No, what you have to do is do the hard work to build that trust. The transparency is a part of that and then that is something that you continue to do. There was a situation where we implemented some new business policies, business way of doing work. Todd was intimately involved with that throughout and all of us were really and some feedback we got afterward was that they didn't feel that there was quite the transparency that they had expected. Felt like a bit of betrayal of trust, and we heard that, we heard that loud and clear. We told people we heard that loud and clear and we changed the way that we implemented larger company-wide changes in that way. It can be a little difficult, just being wide open sometimes will expose you to knee jerk reactions, or a lot of different things that can sometimes bite you, but it's worth it in the interest of establishing that sort of trust. TODD: In what ways are we transparent and what ways are we not transparent? JAMON: Well one obvious way is that for most of our engineers and designers, we actually have a transparent pay scale. People actually know what other people make salary-wise. We get this feedback sometimes, someone will say, 'I think this person is leveled too low, I think they need to level up, I think they've been doing good work.' Without that level of transparency we'd never get that feedback because people wouldn't know and you could easily have a situation where someone is underpaid and we're not getting the feedback that that's the case. KEN: Chronically underpaying someone can be extremely expensive. TODD: Ironically. KEN: Because you can lose your best people that way. So we try to be super involved and see everything. Of course, we try, but that stops being scalable after a while so we have to have mechanisms in place that encourage the right information to come forward. TODD: Jamon mentioned our transparent pay scales. If your company is telling you not to talk to your co-workers about how much you make; A, it's ridiculous because you're going to do that anyways, especially with people you're close with and B, it's a red flag because why? I know why they do it because it's easier. Having a pay scale, everyone can look at a spreadsheet to see where everyone is placed and that kind of thing. It's much more challenging from our perspective because you can't just, such and such you know we want to give them more money for whatever reason, maybe a political reason or whatever, it doesn't matter. You can't just give them that because that's not the level they're at, so it's very fair and the transparency is nice but, I'm not going to go into it right now but we've had many situations where that's been difficult for us. Would've been easier just to have a normal secret pay for everyone, but not all of our team enjoys that as much as some other people. Some people really enjoy that and it also gets rid of problems like inequity between say genders, or race or anything like that because everyone knows what everyone makes. So that kind of transparency is great. Some transparency, I don't think we are transparent, not because we don't want to be, we'd love to be, I personally am a very open book person. Literally if someone asks me a question I'll answer pretty much anything. I won't answer about someone else, like if someone's told me something in confidence, or I won't talk about my wife or whatever but anything about me I'm very open. But, I know not everyone is that way and there are various reasons why but as a company, we try to be as transparent unless it's actively going to hurt people and sometimes that happens. You have to weigh hurting people against transparency sometimes. Sometimes people really, it's not good if they see how sausage is made, just because they may not have the full information. Let me give you an example. So let's say, this is hypothetical, this isn't really what's happened, lets say we're going over financials once a month and we understand what's going on and we've had lots of conversations about financials and then one month we're going to be drastically under and us founders are going to have to put money into the company to keep it rolling. That's one of those things where, if you just announce that we're doing really poorly, we're going to put money in so we can pay payroll, it can make people very nervous. Not because they're not smart enough to understand, they just haven't been sitting in those meetings and they don't understand the big picture. You can say all you want that it's totally okay, it's fine don't worry about it, but when someone's doing a bank robbery with a gun, you don't pay attention to what their wearing, you're looking at the barrel of the gun. It's just situations like that where we choose specifically not to be transparent. We default to transparency, but there are time when we choose not to be. KEN: The first time I really extensively used what I would call social media at work was at Yammer, who semi-invented that. JAMON: Ken, what was Yammer? What was the product? KEN: Yammer was, I think it began life as basically Twitter for companies and it kind of turned into Facebook for companies. It's very similar to that, so it's, you have threaded conversations and notifications and likes, but it was aimed at organizations. It's still going. They were bought by Microsoft, it still exists. Slack pretty much came in and sucked all the air out of that market, but, nevertheless, they had some pretty good norms for how you use a tool like that in business. One of them was, they had private groups, but they would always ask the question: Why is this private? Why is this conversation happening in private chat and not in a channel? Not that you couldn't have things private, because there are certainly cases where you'd want that, but those cases had to argue for themselves, whereas, the prevailing mindset before had been private by default unless you needed to collaborate and so our default is: default to open, default to open channels and we do that in Slack too. The things that we keep private are: client channels are private so that they don't have to worry that random drive-bys are coming in and looking at their stuff. Few things like HR and finance are private and anybody on the team can make as many private groups as they want for themselves. In terms of the official channels, they're as open as we can make them and that's been part of that ethos is that it's not all transparent, it's transparent by default. JAMON: But that even extends outside the company. On my Twitter I'll answer questions and I'm often quite transparent about some of the challenges that we face. This podcast being another outlet for it, where we talk about what we do. It's even outside of the company itself and I think that helps, it's a part of who we are. Todd, Ken, and I initially started on some open source software and that's the height of transparency there. CHRIS: So kind of bringing this episode to a close; What advice would you give to other founders who are looking to build a culture of doing difficult work together as a team? TODD: I would say the number one tip is just try, and keep on trying. There's no magic bullet, I don't know of any particular books you can read, every organization's different and different type people and different type jobs have different needs, but if you just keep on trying and keep on making an effort towards it, if you stumble and you have an emotional moment and you swing your arms too strongly, get back up, apologize, and keep on trying. JAMON: How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. You start there and you start in a way that is, you don't have this master plan where you have to follow it exactly all the way through. You design something that has a feedback loop. Feedback loops are extremely important. You'll hear us talking about that more, very often. You start with the first thing, then you start with the next thing and you keep working at it. We've never done a podcast together, for example, so we start with the first episode and we iterate on it and we look at what we've done and we see what we like and what we don't like. We provide feedback and we provide feedback in a way that hopefully is constructive and is something that we can learn from. Todd mentioned another time when he and I collaborated on sales and how we would engineer the process. We did it that way. We started with the first sales lead and we evaluated how we did and we continue to chip away at it. Any company that is going to take on a hard problem like that, start with the first bite and see how you did, and have a feedback loop and have a way of iterating, getting better and by the end of that elephant, you're going to be pretty dang good at eating elephants. KEN: That's terrible. TODD: Yeah, we apologize to the elephants out there. KEN: Can we eat Republicans? (laughter) TODD: Can we eat people at Google? JAMON: I get the reference: elephants and GOP. TODD: I don't understand... KEN: See, this is why we had to bring Jamon on because Todd wasn't smart enough to get my jokes. (laughter) TODD: This is all going to be cut anyways so ... I know Chris. JAMON: I hope not. (laughter) TODD: We eat Republicans, really? KEN: Yeah, no you're right. They're probably tough. (laughter) TODD: It's all the wrinkles from too much makeup.

Show Links The Day They Invented Offices Episode Transcript TODD WERTH: Hi, I'm Todd Werth, the CEO and one of the founders of Infinite Red, and I'm located in a very sunny Las Vegas, Nevada. KEN MILLER: I'm Ken Miller, I'm CTO of Infinite Red, and I am based in the east bay, the bay area. JAMON HOLMGREN: I'm Jamon Holmgren, and I am just north of Portland, Oregon in Washington state in Vancouver, Washington, and I am the Chief Operating Officer here at Infinite Red. CHRIS MARTIN: Excellent, so let's start with just defining from each of your perspectives what remote work is. JAMON: For me, a lot of people think remote work is like working in your spare bedroom, or something like that. Which it often is, it can be. But remote work is really more about the ability to be able to do your work at full capacity kind of in a place other than one centralized office. A lot of companies are built around having an office in an office building. I had a company like that before, where everybody is in physical proximity. But remote work is about being elsewhere, and distributed. TODD: Remote work is not, as Jamon said, working from home. Although, I work from my studio here in my house in Las Vegas. Really remote work is working on whatever you're particularly working on at this time in the most efficient place that is efficient for you. For example, some of our team members work in co-location places, because they enjoy being around other people. They work maybe in coffee shop, or that kind of stuff. Personally, I need pretty quiet environment. KEN: I would actually shift the rhetorical frame around this slightly, and say that for us, work needs to happen someplace where you have the resources you need. And what we're calling remote work is just an acknowledgement that for certain kinds of work, a growing segment that I would say is kind of centered around the tech industry, where being next to the people you're working with physically just doesn't matter. Not that it can't be helpful, but that it's no longer required. To the point that we have started referring to non-remote work as commute work. JAMON: Yeah, I love that term. KEN: Meaning instead of saying well there's this normal kind of work where you drive into an office, which we've come to accept as normal. And recognizing that that's actually a phenomenon that's less than 100 years old. It's saying that like there is this thing that developed when you have a car, and before that, the train, where you could live some place that's relatively far away from where you work. Move yourself physically into that office during the day, and then move yourself physically back. And we're saying let's move the office out to where the people are, instead of moving the people to where the office is. That's really the core for me, right? That it's more to do with do you have the resources you need? Meaning do you have a good internet connection, do you have someplace quiet to work that is conducive to the way that you think? And less about where your body is. JAMON: Ken's exactly right. And what we found is that people sort of gravitate to where they work best. One of the things that's a little challenging is this perception that people just kind of slack off, and things like that. But really, people want to work efficiently. They want to find a place where they feel comfortable, like Todd said before, it's quiet. It's not a lot of interruptions. CHRIS:So when Infinite Red started out, was it a remote company to a certain degree? TODD: Yes. JAMON: No. TODD: Yes. KEN: It depends on where you start counting. It depends on which of us you're asking- TODD: Yeah, because- KEN: Because we were two companies before we started. TODD: Yes, there was Jamon's company, which he ran for 10 years. They were not remote. Infinite Red, the previous Infinite Red before the merge, and we became the new Infinite Red, we started out as 100% remote company on purpose, and our intention was to remain that way for the life of the company. JAMON: Yeah, and it was kind of an interesting transition for us. Because we were not remote for sure, and we were all working in an office here in Vancouver, Washington. It was right about the time that I met Todd, and I don't remember exactly to be honest, whether it was influence from Infinite Red that kind of moved us toward remote, or whether we were ... I know that I had some employees asking about it already, so that was certainly a factor. But the other Infinite Red, the original Infinite Red being a model was really helpful to us, for ClearSight, because Todd and I shared a lot of information, and he would tell me about things that he was passionate about, and one of them was obviously remote work. And we were able to start transitioning that way, and by the time the merger happened, we were pretty much all remote, except for me. Because I was building a home, and living with my in-laws. So I didn't really have a great spot to work, so I ended up staying in the office for another year. TODD: Yep. Ken and I originally discussed, I've worked throughout my 20 years of being a software engineer, I've worked in the office full-time. I've worked partially remote, and I've worked 100% remote. I personally feel that in the office full-time, or 100% remote are the two superior options. I don't like the hybrid view for many reasons. So we were very specifically going to be 100% not 99, not 98%, but 100% remote for everyone for all time. KEN: I feel like I should mention something ironic, which actually proves the point a little bit, which is that as we speak, I am in the same room as Todd, which is in his house, and we are here because it's my daughter's spring break, and we just decided to come and visit. But as far as the team is concerned, there's zero difference. They don't care, it doesn't matter, the only hassle is that we had to set up fancy microphones set up in order to make this work. Right? Which kind of proves the point, right? Which is that when everybody's in their own room, there's actually a lot of things are much simpler. Yes. We don't discount the benefits that can come from being in the same room sometimes, it's just we don't value it so highly that we're willing to sacrifice everything else on that altar, which is what tends to end up happening in commute-oriented companies. JAMON: Ken wrote a really great article on our blog, The Day They Invented Offices. It's a hypothetical conversation between a real estate developer, and a knowledge worker, like an engineer. KEN: It's satire. JAMON: And it talks about a world where basically if offices were not invented, people worked remotely by default. But the real estate developer's trying to convince the knowledge worker that they need to change to a commute company. And all of the benefits that that would entail, and all of the costs as well. TODD: Yeah, it's interesting, because when you do that thought experiment, you realize how ridiculous it would be to go from default remote working situation into a commute working situation, because you'd have to build trillions of dollars worth of infrastructure to make it work. So it was fascinating. I do want to say one thing, Ken mentioned that he was sitting in my office, which he is. I feel him breathing down my neck at the moment. Even if, and we actually have a physical office in Vancouver, Washington, which is in the Portland area. Very few people go there. KEN: It's a mailbox with a couple chairs attached. TODD: But sometimes people will go there and work, and anyone on the team is welcome to do that. Or Ken is in a situation. But we have a basic rule where even if you're physically next to someone, we still work the same way. Meaning we don't have a meeting where Ken and I are talking to each other in person, and everyone ... All the remote people are second class citizens where they're not seeing our conversation. We're looking at each other, and we're making body motion, that kind of stuff. So we still work as if we're remote, even if we're physically in the same location. CHRIS: That's really interesting too, I mean what kind of discipline goes into keeping things where everyone can be a part of it, not just defaulting to that person to person conversation when you're in the same room? TODD: I'm in charge of discipline. We tried writing things on the chalkboard many times, it did not work. Detention seemed a little juvenile. So we went to the old classic of cat of nine tails. KEN: Keelhauling. JAMON: Yes. KEN: Yeah. As an escalation. TODD: To answer your question seriously, which I have difficulty doing, there are a lot of difficulties. Fundamentally, they come from the fact that a lot of people have not only never experienced remote work, have never seen it. We're too many generations removed from the 1800's, when almost everyone worked at their house, basically, and their house was downtown. Your parents didn't work that way, your grandparents didn't work ... they've never seen it in existence. So they really don't know how it works. Not only they don't know how it works, their family definitely doesn't know how it works. And probably the number one problem we have is family, and friends, local family and friends not respecting that the person's actually working. One of the tricks I tell people, and it works pretty well, is just tell your family member that your boss is getting mad at you, or your boss wants you to do something. Because even if you're remote, everyone understands the boss. And just throw me under the bus, it's totally fine, and that seems to work. But that's part of the biggest challenge, is family not respecting your space. JAMON: I think Todd touched on something really important, and that's that this is actually not that new. That was the default way to work. People didn't commute to work. They worked on a farm. KEN: Maybe they walked down the street, but in most cases, not. JAMON: This idea that we have gigantic super highways, and huge transit systems and stuff, just to move people from one location that they could work to another location that they could work for no apparent other reason, it's a little bit mind boggling. Now I understand, I understand why it came to be. Remote tools, which we're not going to talk about much in this episode, but remote tools have not historically been that great, and the experience has been pretty bad. But that's changing, it very much is changing. TODD: The industrial revolution when people started working at factories, and started commuting, and the transportation revolution that facilitated a lot of that. Most of human history, work was not separated from life. Their work life didn't make sense, because you're either relaxing and drinking lemonade, or you're making dinner, or you're sweeping your house, or you're pulling out the potatoes in your backyard, if you're a farmer. The reason we have work life balance now, is because work can be fairly distressing, and you need a break from it. But typically back then, let's say you're a blacksmith, your shop would be on main street, and your house would be behind your shop, or above your shop. So your children would live within feet of where you worked, and where your spouse worked. Whether your spouse worked in the home, or did other things. So your children would eat all your meals with you, they would go to school, school is probably pretty close if they were older. If they were younger, they would eat your meals with you. They'd be around your work, they would see work going on all the time. It just wouldn't be work, it would just be normal, for instance, if you're done with your particular task today, and there's a customer coming in who wants something built for their wagon at two, you might hang out with your children, do some housework, or just play games, or whatever. And then when your customer comes in, you go into the shop, and you service that customer. The industrial revolution made it where adults had to start to pretend to work so they didn't get in trouble. JAMON: So my six year old daughter had an assignment at school, and one of the questions was where does your parent or guardian go to work? And she wrote, "The gym." Because to her, that's when I left the house, was to go work out at the gym. TODD: That's so awesome. KEN: The phenomenon that you're talking about Todd, where the industrial revolution began this process where people started working out of the home, there was a really good reason for that, which is that it was the beginning of humans having to collaborate in a large scale way on bigger problems than they had had in the past, right? Before that, the only place where you would see really large scale collaboration like that would have been I suppose- JAMON: Warfare? KEN: What? JAMON: Warfare? KEN: Warfare, yeah. That's the place where people would leave the house, and collaborate in large numbers, that was really it. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Maybe large farms, I don't know, you could kind of consider that. But culminating in the 20th century, where that was the norm for people to go and collaborate in relatively large numbers some place away from their home. It enabled them to solve problems that you couldn't solve without involving that many people. And of course, we don't want to give that up, and so that's what the modern remote telecommuting company does, is it creates this new kind of collaboration layer, and we've been very deliberate about how we construct that. And I think that's one of the places where companies that kind of dabble with remote tend to fall down, which is that they have all these inherited ways of collaborating that you do when you're in an office together, and some of them don't work anymore. You can't just tap your coworker on the shoulder, you can't just go and like sit next to their screen. You can't all pile into an office on an impromptu basis. So you have to reconstruct habits, technologies, whatever, that can replace those things, and augment them. And we think that, overall, you end up with a better result having gone through that effort of being deliberate about that. And that in a generation, no one will think about these things anymore, because they will simply be the inherited defaults that people who work in an office together enjoy today. And we sometimes meet in person, right? Once a year we get the whole team together, the executive team comes together more often than that. It's not that we don't value that, but we think of it is as a luxury. TODD: Well, it's not necessarily a luxury perhaps, it's important socialization. So Ken and I actually discussed, we went over a pros and cons, like what's good about working in an office? Or in a cubicle, or in hell? What's good about that? Well, you're around other people, and every answer we came up with that was good was all social. It had nothing to do with actually producing any kind of work product. And I basically tell people I commute to socialize, as opposed to commuting to work. So instead of commuting to work five days a week, and socializing one of those days in the office at an office party or something, I work remotely, and I commute to the office party once a week. Not our office, but just local friends, and that kind of stuff. JAMON: It's kind of a funny thing, but yeah, you want to hang out with your friends, not necessarily just with your coworkers. And that may sound kind of weird, and the environment we are now, where often you do make friends with coworkers, and that's all great. But your social life can be something that is a little more deliberate outside of work. KEN: It's not like we discount the social value of people working together in an office, like I enjoyed that when I did it. But I think you're seeing with the rise of WeWork, and similar places, like just in the last five years I've seen the number of co-working facilities explode. And I think that that's part of the same trend, which is that you can have that experience without having to drive for an hour each way, every day. TODD: Yeah. One of our team members, Darin Wilson, he works every day out of a co-location place, and he walks for 10 minutes to the co-location area. That for him is the most efficient, he enjoys that, and that works out well. It's a great example of what works for one person doesn't work for others. I would not like that personally. I also don't like listening to music when I work, other people do. When you remote work, if you like to listen to death metal at extremely high volumes, well have at it. It's great, it's wonderful. KEN: Just turn it off before you get on Zoom please. TODD: Yes. So one of the things I think we shouldn't overlook is some of the great benefits of working say in a cubicle. I would probably estimate 99% of all the funny videos, cool things you find on the internet, were created by extremely bored people sitting in a gray cube. I call them employee fattening pins. So the zombies will appreciate this lifestyle. Not that I dislike commute working, I hope I haven't given off that vibe. JAMON: Not at all. CHRIS: How does remote work make a more engaged worker? JAMON: You know, you have to work at it. There isn't just this appearance of working, right? The only thing that really surfaces is what you actually do, not what it looks like you're doing in your cubicle, right? And because of that, the only way to tell that you are working is to actually work. TODD: Well to actually produce work product, to be more specific. KEN: Yes. JAMON: Actually produce work product, exactly. And we go to great lengths to try to not tie work specifically to time. Because while an eight hour work day is pretty normal, and generally okay, if there are ways to accomplish your work more efficiently, you should be rewarded for that, and not penalized for that by having to sit in your seat for another two hours. It's more about stripping away the appearance of work, and turning to the actual product. TODD: One of our team members moved from Reno, Nevada, to San Diego, California. She moved over a weekend, Friday she worked, and Monday she worked. From the team's perspective, absolutely nothing had changed. Although, she moved I don't know how many miles that is. Hundreds, tens of miles. So that kind of stuff is uber cool. One of our new team members said, "I'm going to New York for a week, can I still work?" And I said, "I assume you can still work in New York. I haven't been there in a few years, but I imagine they still allow that." Turns out they do. Strangely. So I'll tell you a personal story of mine. After I eat at lunch, I don't know if it's my digestive system, or whatever, it sucks the energy out of me so bad. When I worked in a smaller place where people trusted me, I would just kind of take a little nap in my chair. When I worked for bigger companies where such things were frowned upon, I would sit there for two hours from say 1 o'clock to 3 o'clock, trying my best to keep my eyes open pretending to work, and sort of reading Facebook. It's just stupid, and I did that when I was 34 years old. It's just stupid to have adults behave in this way, it really is. JAMON: Yeah, we don't look at that as some sort of a weakness. TODD: Nowadays, I did made a little bit of fun, that's fine. I really enjoy the siesta. I'll go take literally an hour nap after I eat, and then I come back refreshed, and I get lots of work done. And I tell people, I'm going to take siesta, there's no shame in that whatsoever. JAMON: And I think that's important, when the CEO's doing it, it kind of gives people permission to work in the way that is most efficient for them. TODD: Exactly. I personally believe it's super important to have 100% of people remote. The CEO on down. A lot of companies out there that claim to be remote, they're partially remote, and that's fine. I'm glad it works for them. But when you're CEO, and your other executive team have to use all the same tools, remote tools and everything that everyone does, it's not fair, but it's true. Those tools get a lot better. It's true. So if you have the CO sitting in an office, and they don't have to experience the horribleness that is a poly comm conference call, then it's never going to improve. CHRIS: What are some of the common misconceptions of remote work that you often have to explain, or even defend? TODD: Oh, there's lots. One, you're not really working. That's the biggest thing. Two is that you're probably doing your laundry, playing video games, and other such things that people imagine. Those are the kinds of- KEN: Sometimes you are, I'll get to that. TODD: Well sure, sometimes you are and that's fine. But the biggest one if you're at home, people can bother you. Like my mother, which I love very much, she's funny. She comes to visit, and I've worked remote off and on for a long time, so she should understand this by now. But she'll be like, she'll come in and talk to me. And she'll say, "Oh I know you're working," and I have a separate office, so it's very apparent that you're walking into my office. And she goes, "I know you're working so that's fine. Finish your work up, and then we'll talk in an hour or so." And I'm like, "Mom, remember," my mom's retired. I go, "Remember when you worked? You had to go there for eight hours? It was like from 9 AM to 5 PM? It's the same for me, it's not exactly the hours, but it's not like one hour." And so bless her heart, she's going to give me an hour to get my work done, and then we can talk about whatever she wants to talk about. KEN: I think one of the misconceptions that's not a misconception is that it can tend to blur your work time and your personal time. Then one of the things that people say that they like about having a commute and an office to go is that their work time is over there, and their personal time is over here. And I wish I could say that that's not an issue with remote work. It is kind of an issue for the reasons that Todd mentions. Right, it takes a certain amount of discipline to set that boundary. I'm going to make the case that that's not a problem. It is a problem if you hate your work. If you need to like recover from the boiler room that is your work, or the boredom room, or whatever it is that makes your work uncomfortable. That is a problem. I think of this as a feature of remote work, and it echoes what Todd said about it needing to be the CEO on down. Because if it is the CEO on down, the CEO is going to have the same problems that you are. Right? The three of us have the same pressure about when does work begin and end? Are we kind of always working, are we never working? What is that boundary? And it forces the company to either become a good enough place to work that people want to work, and they're not bothered by the fact that it kind of mixes in with their personal life, or die. Like as the evolutionary pressure on the remote work niche, is that you have to be good communicators. You have to be respectful, and you have more ways that you can be respectful, because you're not having to share as much space with people. You don't have fights over what people put in the damn refrigerator. You don't have fights over who's playing what music, and who put up what offensive poster, or all of these things that come when you're forced into this little box together. TODD: The one I really miss is when someone leaves the company, and everyone kind of looks at each other and says, "Is two minutes too soon to go raid everything out of their office?" KEN: Yeah. TODD: And you see these 50 year old people scrambling around like the hunger games, trying to get the better stapler. KEN: The chair, it's always the chairs and monitors. Those are the real prizes. TODD: Yes, and I've worked for places, like I like a very nice monitor. And I always bring my own, because companies never provide that, typically. I've been told, "Oh, we can't have that because if you have a big monitor, other people will be jealous, and so you can't have that." And I'm like, "Well, okay, I'm going to have it. So either this conversation's escalating, or you have a wonderful lunch." JAMON: I think that's something really insightful about this that we'll probably touch on a lot in our podcast, but that is that we're purposely putting these constraints on ourselves that require that we become a better company. That we become a better, we continue to work on culture. We don't have the easy outs that many companies do. And people will look at that and say, "Well, but you can't do that easy out thing that we all do." And we say, "Exactly, we have to do it differently, we have to do it better. We have to work on it." Remote tools are terrible, exactly. We have to go find better remote tools, we have to work on that. Those constraints are good. They're very good. They're healthy. There's something that forces us to continue to innovate, and to self reflect, and look at how we work. I mean the blurring of the lines between personal and work as Ken said, I totally agree. It's about loving your work. And it brings up some positives too, I mean I just spent two weeks in California. We're not at the stage right now where I necessarily want to take two weeks completely offline. I still want to be somewhat available for Todd and Ken. But I was able to be on Slack on my phone at various times. Let's say waiting in line at Disneyland, or something like that. And that may sound terrible to some people, but it wasn't a big deal to me. It was totally fine, and I loved that I could actually take two weeks for my family to be away, and enjoying the sun, which we don't get a lot of here. KEN: In a way, it also makes your vacations more enjoyable, if you know that you're not coming back to two weeks of email. JAMON: Exactly. KEN: Or things that have fallen apart, or who knows, right, where ... yeah. TODD: I love that spin, that's fantastic. JAMON: I don't see it as spin- KEN: Not for me, anyway. I think some people might not feel that way. JAMON: I understand that. KEN: Yeah. JAMON: A lot of people don't, and I am speaking personally here. This is not for everybody, some people totally on the uninstall Slack when they go on vacation, that's fine. For me though, I was on the plane, and I was basically archiving a bunch of emails, and I get into work this morning, and I could hit the ground running, and I'm good to go. What is the real cost of totally disconnecting? The real cost would have been I couldn't take two weeks. I couldn't be away that long. That's what it would have been. I was able to benefit from that, you may only see the downsides, but there's positives there. KEN: And to be clear, this is how it is for us as founders. Right? When it comes to our employees, we pretty much encourage them to mute, or uninstall Slack while they're away. JAMON: That's right, that's right. KEN: They don't have as much need to be sort of always on that we do. Yeah, but for us, it's actually ... I mean from my point of view, it's a benefit. JAMON: But even that, we have some employees that want to travel, and they want to be gone for a couple months. Three months, even. Taking a three month vacation, that's pretty tough, that's pretty tough to do. So with some of them, they may work in the early mornings, or they may work in the late evenings to coincide with their time zone, and then they can be out on a trip for three months. So they are able to continue to be productive during that time. KEN: And that's a perk that Google cannot match, period. That is just something that you cannot do if you work for Google. TODD: Yeah, screw you Google. KEN: Or whomever, right? Any of these companies that expect a physical presence. TODD: We're coming for you, Google. KEN: The point is, so we have one person who doesn't have a permanent home. Right? He moves around pursuing his hobbies, and makes it work. We have other employees who have done exactly what Jamon has said, and they've gone on extended workcations, right? Where they're able to get their work done, and they have the experience of frankly, actually living in another country, as opposed to just being a tourist. And we have high standards for how they get their work done while they're doing that, but because we've had to develop standards that really measure people's impact rather than their face time, it works. TODD: Copyright Apple. KEN: There was a space, you couldn't really hear it when I said it- TODD: Space? JAMON: Face. TODD: Face. KEN: So there was a face, space time. Yeah, right, anyway. TODD: Yeah, we talked about people who want to take longer physical trips around, whether it's around the US, around the world, what not, the benefits. But there's a benefit for another set of people, and I would probably consider myself in that group, as well as some of our other team members, and that's people who choose to live rurally. JAMON: Yes. TODD: We have one person who lives really rurally, and he has a lot of land and stuff, and he can have the lifestyle that he enjoys, and still have a very productive and successful career. Myself, I do live in Las Vegas, but I live in rural Las Vegas. I have a little bit of land. It allows me to live in this way, when I used to have to live in San Francisco, which I enjoyed for a long time, but as I got older I wanted to go back to living on the land and stuff. So for people who want to live rurally, or not just the typical urban or suburban lifestyle, it's fantastic. CHRIS: So when it comes to the client experience of working with a 100% remote company, how do they respond to this way of work? TODD: That's a great question, Chris. Various ways depending on the client. Some clients, that's the way they work, and they love it. Like they see us kindred spirits, that's the way they like to work. Other clients especially if maybe they're more enterprise city type clients and stuff, maybe aren't as familiar with it. We kind of insist on it to be honest, even if the client's local to some or many of our employees, our team. And we just explain it, and we are very articulate in the way we describe how we work. And sometimes they have to have a little faith in us, but after they work through our process, they probably never seen a remote company that works well. I think our company works as well as I've seen. We work with a few companies who are both I think do a good job like we do. A lot of them do not, and I'm very proud to say that quite a few customers who maybe have part-time remote work started opting our procedures, which is a fantastic compliment, and it makes me proud. Because we do spend a huge amount of time thinking about this stuff, and working on it. JAMON: That's actually more common than you think, that we influence our clients in the way that they work. TODD: Can you expand on that Jamon? JAMON: When clients come in, and they experience the Infinite Red way of working, and they see the thought and care that we put into it, and how we're all kind of bought into it, and how we also iterate on it, because it's an ongoing process. We don't have it perfect yet, we're continuing to work on it. They see that things get done, that it can be done well, and that they have the flexibility that remote work affords. It's a pretty neat thing to see them working the way that we love to work. TODD: I don't want to digress, but we use Slack quite a bit for chat communication, that sort of thing. We use email next to nothing. But we have a channel we call rollcall, and the channel is very simple. It's just kind of describe where you are, and if you're working or not. It's analogous to walking in the office and saying, "Good morning everyone, gosh my back hurts, I've been at the gym." And it works really, really well, because it's not forced on people, and people really enjoy the back and forth. So let me just go through this morning's rollcall. One of our team members signed on at 3 AM, and then she went out for breakfast at 6 o'clock. Other people started signing in, one person signed in. It said they laptop issues that they fixed, they explained why. People gave some reactions. Other people just signed in, I said, "Good morning." One person said, "Short break," this is at 9 AM, "Picking up the car from the mechanic." We won't have exactly specific times people have to be working, or available, we want people to be so many hours a day where they can coordinate with other people, have meetings, have work sessions, that kind of stuff. But it's not uncommon people say, "My daughter's having a recital, I'm going to leave after lunch, I'll be back and probably work some this evening." No client meetings, no one's being impacted by that, great, we all give him thumbs up, we say, "Hope it goes well." No one asked if they can do that, no one says, "Hey Todd, can I go to that?" And then around lunchtime, everyone says they're lunching. They might talk about what they ate, some sort of friendly conversation, and you just kind of get a feeling of your team going about their day. And I will finish this long story up by saying it's kind of fascinating. So one of the people I work a lot with is Gant Laborde, who lives in New Orleans. And we work a lot during the day. And when he comes and visits me physically, or I go to New Orleans and visit him, it doesn't feel like I'm visiting a friend I haven't seen in a while. There isn't a lot of chat about how things have been going, it's nice to see you again. Because I've seen him every day for hours, and I just saw him this morning. And by see him, I mean interacted with him either in a video call, or on Slack, or whatever. It doesn't feel like I'm just finally meeting him, it's like we're just continuing what we were doing this morning, it's just we happen to physically be in the same space. It's very interesting phenomena. JAMON: I find it kind of flabbergasting in a way that companies would care about someone taking a break, or going to pickup their daughter, or having to go pickup the car from the mechanic. TODD: Lazy leadership. JAMON: That's exactly right. TODD: I recommend if you're a lazy ... for the lazy leaders out there, or the bad leaders, yeah, don't do remote work. Stick with cubicles, make the cubicles as comfortable as possible to get the worst employees so the rest come to us. KEN: It's probably worth talking about people for whom it wouldn't be a good fit. Obviously there's still plenty of jobs out there where physical presence is implicitly required. Anybody who works in retail, anybody who works with their hands, has to actually physically manipulate things. I think our point has always been that there's just not as many of those as people think. And to be honest, I suspect that over the next 20, 30 years, as robotics and telepresence, and that sort of thing start to really come into their own, that even those sorts of jobs will start to diminish. You already have that even with like medical, the medical field, legal field, things that used to be sort of a high, high physical presence will become more low physical presence. TODD: Surgeons right now are doing surgery with a DaVinci system, both physically, and I think they can do it remotely now. Like they're standing next to it typically, but I think they can do it remotely at the moment. JAMON: What's kind of funny about that is my dad owned an excavation company, and he was one of the first people to get a cell phone, because for him, everything was remote. Like he had to be remote, because he was driving his dump truck to the job site, he had to be there working, and he had to do his office work, because he was like the only guy. He didn't have an office, he didn't have someone handling the paperwork, he had to create invoices on the fly and stuff. So in some ways, some of those blue collar jobs had some of these things figured out way before we did. TODD: That's actually a super interesting point. Logistic companies, or shipping, truck drivers and stuff. They've had to deal with this, I don't know how old you all are out there in listening land, but if you remember Nextel phones, with the automatic walkie talkie feature- JAMON: Totally. TODD: They're useful, very useful. Kind of like an analog Slack, really. So yeah, it's fascinating. A lot of the so called blue collar work has had to deal with this for a very long time. KEN: And it's worth mentioning that even for the core of jobs that will always be physical in person, if you took every office out there that didn't need to be an office, and you converted that to a remote job where people can live anywhere, the reduction in pressure on the real estate market, on the transportation system that would ensue, would make life better for everybody. TODD: Right. KEN: Right? The people who have to commute can commute, because I mean you have this phenomenon as cities grow, where they'll build a new highway, and for five, 10 years if you're lucky, things are great. Because there's all this extra capacity, but what happens in the meantime, is that further down that highway, developers start cramming new houses in, because suddenly it's a doable commute. And then within that five, 10, maybe 20 years, it's back to the way it was, maybe worse than it was, because now there's even more people trying to cram into this road. But if you just snap your fingers, and moved all of those offices out so that that knowledge workers, the people who are working with their brains, and with words, and with digital images, and that sort of thing. And they all scatter to the winds, and live where they want to live, and not in Fremont, or wherever it is that they're living to commute to San Francisco. I feel like, right, maybe like I don't think I've ever seen a study like this, but it seems like it would stand to reason at least that the pressure on transportation would reduce to the point that everybody's quality of life would improve. I don't know, we'll see I guess. JAMON: Yeah, even when you look at something like a dentist office, which is probably extremely resistant to this sort of thing, there's just the robotics are not there yet. And maybe even if they were the trust isn't there yet, with the general public. But how many other people are in that office that don't need to be drilling on teeth? They could be elsewhere. And you're exactly right, the infrastructure, and it's actually kind of happening in some ways. You look at some of the high rises in downtown Portland and stuff, people are coming and living in the city because they want to live in the city, and not because it's next to their office. And a lot of these offices are now being converted into apartments and condos, and being kind of near offices, where you can work from your house. And what would cities look like if every job that could be remote was remote? KEN: I mean yeah, can you imagine a world where the city center is the bedroom community, right? JAMON: Right. TODD: That would be awesome. KEN: Where people live because they want to be next to the cultural opportunities in the city. And the minority of people who actually have to physically work at some job in the city, can live next to their work, because there's just more housing, because like much less of the city is taken over by the kind of white collar workplaces that have been traditional for city centers. TODD: That's actually really interesting to think about. KEN: Yeah. TODD: I imagine somewhere in hell, there is an eight hour bumper to bumper commute, and you're not in a car, but you're literally in a cubicle with a steering wheel. CHRIS: One of the things that I want to go back and touch on is this idea of leadership, and how remote work isn't for the lazy leader. So let me ask the question of the three of you, how has being 100% remote made you a better leader? JAMON: Well, I can speak to my experience going from ClearSight not being remote to being remote. I'm kind of in some ways a forceful personality. I'm kind of a person who likes to move fast, and bring everybody along with him. And in an office, there's actually a sort of almost like a physical component to that. Like the leader's right there, and he's enthusiastic about something. He's moving fast, and he's doing his thing, and he's talking about it where everybody can hear. When I look back at it now, that was sort of lazy leadership. It was. It wasn't necessarily the type of leadership that was people coming along because they were enthusiastic about it, it was more that they were just kind of following the force of nature that was moving that direction. Now that I'm remote, I don't have those physical cues, verbal cues, things like that, to bring everybody along. And it requires a lot more thought and planning around how to get people on board with concepts, and how to get people moving in the right direction. It's a really interesting thing, and it's not something I've totally figured out yet, but it's something I'm moving toward. KEN: I would say that it has forced me to be more explicit about expectations, since you don't have this inherited set of defaults. You have to say, "This is what we expect from you." It's not, "We expect you to come in the office at nine," it's, "You need to be available to clients during an agreed upon window," for example. Or as we had mentioned before, "Here's our productivity benchmark, and this is what we're looking at." You might have to develop some of those in any kind of company, and you should. But our setup, it exposes any fault lines in your expectations, and you have to address them. As Todd said, like if you want to be a lazy leader, don't do it. TODD: I would pile on what Ken said, you have to be able to measure what people, their work output, their work product. That is not easy, even in industries where it's obvious what their work product is. Say they paint paintings, you can see that they painted a painting. That is probably the most challenging thing, and then there's the emotional part. Where if you can't measure their work product, and you can't see them sitting in a seat, you're just going to have to have faith in them, and get over yourself worrying about it. But it is challenging to make sure that you have a semi-accurate view of who's actually being efficient, and who's not. And just not 100% thing. JAMON: That's more on the management side of things. Leadership side of things too is difficult, because getting people to see a vision is much easier when you can just say, "Okay," kind of the Michael Scott thing. "Everybody in the conference room in five minutes." That's a very different thing than what we do. TODD: I think it's challenging, but to be honest, I'm not staying awake at night worrying about those challenges. I find them fairly straightforward, you just have to put effort into it. Keep on walking down that road, and I think it works out really well to be honest. It's not a big deal to me. JAMON: You just have to strike the right balance. TODD: There was a tweet last week where basically it said, "During any meeting, you don't have to listen, just at one point you have to comment and say, 'I think the solution to this problem is just striking the right balance', and then everyone in the meeting nods, and you were involved." KEN: Because it's always true. JAMON: It's always true. TODD: Yes, so that's a running joke here at Infinite Red, where in the meeting at some point someone says, "We just need to strike the right balance." We all laugh. CHRIS: Looking into the future, do you see more and more companies adopting remote work? TODD: It's one of our missions, our side missions as a company, to make it more. It's probably other than software engineering, and software design, which is obviously our main focus of our company. Other than that, probably the number one thing that we're interested in promoting in the world is remote work. So I hope the answer is, it's more I don't know, I'm sure Ken and Jamon have some good insight in what they predict. JAMON: I think that one of the factors that will influence this is I look at my kids, like generation Z. And they don't know what it's like not to be connected, and they don't know what it's like not to be able to just talk to their cousin via FaceTime, no space, and who lives in South Carolina. This is normal to them, this is a normal thing to them, this is a normal way to live and to work. Well, they don't really work, but just to do things. KEN: We'll fix that. JAMON: Obviously for my kids, they're around remote work all the time. But it is a way of life, and I think that you'll also see other things like there are more ways to learn online, versus going to a university and sitting in a classroom. There are plenty of other opportunities for them to get used to this way of doing life. And I think that will have an impact. It may not be moving as quickly as we would like, we would like to see a lot more industries move into being remote work for a variety of reasons. But I think that that is a factor. KEN: I will echo that and say that both my wife and I work from home. And my daughter makes the same face when you say that some people have to like drive to a special place, as when you say that you used to have to come to the TV at a particular time to watch your show. Right? But even before the generational shift, I think it is happening more and more. Ironically, Silicon Valley, which should be at the vanguard of this, is one of the most resistant to the idea. I think that's partly because they've had so much money flowing through, that they've been able to afford the enormous luxury of moving everybody to this expensive place, and then putting them in an expensive office. And to be honest, for a company that is chasing a multi billion dollar idea, and trying to beat their competitors over the next six months, there's a case to be made for doing that. But I think way, way more of those companies think that they are doing that than actually are. JAMON: I actually have a question for you Ken, do you think that this will ... you know you said Silicon Valley is resistant to this, and that's a very location based geo fence there. Do you think that the revolution of remote work will happen irrespective of where people are located, but maybe in a different cohort? A different type of people will bring remote work to the forefront more so than a specific place. Let's say for example Detroit, or something, decided it all of a sudden is all remote. That's probably less likely to happen then- KEN: I think that that's one of the key pieces of this, is like it's like it's creating it's own virtual location. That there's a set of people who don't have the same relationship with place, and that sounds really pretentious kind of. But like they just don't think about physical locations in the same way. The cost aspect of it has caused it to grow in more cost sensitive industries than venture backed startups. And it's not that they don't have those, but I think it's also a certain amount of bias on the part of the venture capitalists themselves, and the kind of people that appeal to them. This is my guess, they will crack eventually. TODD: Having worked in Silicon Valley for 20 years, I do love Silicon Valley, and love San Francisco for sure. But when it comes to remote work, they have an inherent bias against it, because when you endure the heavy cost of relocating to Silicon Valley, and you've got your foot into that door, and you're part of that community, anything that would diminish the rewards from that suffering diminishes you. In other words, it's wonderful being there as an engineer. Everyone you meet is engineers, they're all working on interesting projects. There's a real benefit, I think there's other cities too. Especially some secondary cities like Portland, Oregon, or- KEN: Seattle. TODD: Seattle yeah, and Texas. KEN: Austin. TODD: Thank you. Austin, Texas. I think these are up and coming and stuff. And there's still benefits socially to it, but I think a lot of times they resist it because it diminishes their specialness in many ways. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: And really when we started Infinite Red, and we decided that this will be a remote company forever, and that this is my third and hopefully last company I build, it allowed me to move back to my home state of Nevada without worrying about my career, and that is an incredibly powerful thing.

A live-action Star Wars television show is definitely on the way! So Ken is going to speculate on what that could be! From the minds of Ken Napzok (The Napzok Files) and Joseph Scrimshaw (comedian, writer, host of the Obsessed podcast), and Jennifer Landa (actress, host, crafter, contributor to starwars.com) comes the ForceCenter Podcast Feed. Here you will find a series of shows exploring, discussing, and celebrating everything about Star Wars. Spotlight Star Wars is a monologue from one Star Wars fan to many. Listen on Podomatic, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify, TuneIn, and iHeartRadio. Twitter - @ForceCenterPod and @KenNapzok #SpotlightStarWars to join the conversation. Visit our Patreon page! www.patreon.com/forcecenter Vist our Website! www.forcecenterpod.podomatic.net Purchase ForceCenter merchandise at www.teepublic.com/forcecenter Subscribe on YouTube www.youtube.com/forcecenter --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/forcecenter/message

This week the Phoenix Down Radio cast talk about the numerous interviews released by the gaming media, including one from our very own Chille, who was ever so gracious in allowing us to submit a number of questions as well. To our surprise, Yoshida answered all of them! We go in-depth with the psu.com interview, talk briefly about a couple of other interviews released shortly after Paris Games Week, and are joined by FusionX from Gamer Escape to discuss his interview with Masayoshi Soken from the FFXIV Orchestral concert in Tokyo.  Show Notes PlayStation Universe Interview with Yoshida: http://www.psu.com/feature/34640/interview-ffxiv-yoshida-patch-4-2-eureka-future-content LiveDoor.jp interview from Paris Games Week: http://blog.livedoor.jp/umadori0726/archives/52375866.html WarLegend.net interview with Yoshida: https://www.warlegend.net/final-fantasy-xiv-interview-producteur-directeur-naoki-yoshida/ GamerEscape interview with Soken: https://gamerescape.com/2017/11/09/interview-with-masayoshi-soken-on-final-fantasy-xivs-orchestra-concert/  

Ah, sweet WordPress plugins! If it were not for the occassional need for a custom WordPress plugin their probably would only be a 15 minute Social Media Edge Radio show (because that's how the time gets paid for!) So Ken and Mike know that plugins can be a little confusing, may not do exactly what you want, can be "manipulated" and should be used by everyone who has a WordPress website. As you should know we generally discuss self-hosted WordPress but some of these skills are crossover to WordPress.com sites as well. If you have a question about a WordPress plugin this is the time to get in the chat room or call in to the show while we are on live. Essentially this is a 30 minute FREE WEBINAR about WordPress and WordPress plugins. Ken is http://thekencook.com Mike is http://areweconnected.com

Ken Anderson grew up in LA during the 70’s and enjoyed normal kid stuff like biking and skateboarding. Ken’s first car was a VW Bug and he discovered how much fun it was to customize it. In the mid-80’s, he got a job at a local Honda dealership in the parts department. That dealership begin importing Mugen parts from Japan and was installing them onto cars. After a few years of working at the dealership, he wanted to get into racing and got in touch with Russ at RC Engineering. Ken started as a shop assistant and learned a lot about engine dynamics during his time there. Then, he heard about an opportunity at HKS and got a job as a sales person. He got in on the ground floor of HKS bringing their excellent build quality to the US. After some time, he had an opportunity to team up with Rod Millen and began importing parts for the Miata when it was first brought to the US. They built some great cars and imported all sorts of parts for the Miata and other Mazda cars. Eventually, Ken saw yet another opportunity in SUV’s and branched out to start a company that imported accessories for vehicles like the Land Cruisers, Montero’s, and Troopers. This was the first company that Ken started on his own and he grew it to be a very large company. Then he sold his stake to a partner and exited the business. The next venture was back into smaller sports cars. He met a man who worked at Cosworth during a car event and this meeting turned into another business opportunity. At the time, Cosworth’s primary role in the US was to support the Champ Car racing series. But Cosworth wanted to manufacture and sell more parts in the US and Ken was put in charge of that task. When Ford sold off the Cosworth arm of the business, Ken helped introduce several products for different vehicle manufacturers. They got started with products like a CNC head for the Subaru STI, as well as a CNC head and cams for the Mitsubishi Evo. After building up yet another business, Ken left to go work for COBB Tuning for the next 1.5 years. Ken then traveled to England for the Autosport Performance Trade Show and had a meeting with Mountune to sell them the Accessport. David Mountain, the founder of Mountune, was actually looking for somebody to introduce the US to their products and knew that Ken would be perfect for the job. So Ken took the offer and opened up Mountune USA by himself and proceeded to grow the company very quickly. He now employs 13 people and occupy a large building with a showroom, install area, engine dyno, and warehouse space.

6-28-16 GotMead Live is 1 Year Old! June 30 marks our one year anniversary, and we're tickled to have Ken Schramm back with us. Ken was kind enough to be the first guest on GML last year, and he's coming back to tell us what's going on with Schramm's Mead now, and also to help us talk about using fruit in your mead. You may not know, but Ken has a small and carefully curated orchard and berry farm on his property in Michigan. And he creates small batch reserve meads from these fruits, such as the legendary Heart of Darkness, a mead made from hand-harvested fruit and always sold out before it even gets into bottles. So Ken is a bit of a fruit maven. And we're going to pick his brains on his fruit knowledge. This is going to be good, so tune in and listen! AJ, Manny and I will be talking about using fruit in your meads with Ken. Got questions? Want to join the conversation, give us a call!! 803-443-MEAD (6323), or Skype us at meadwench (please friend me first and say you're a listener, I get tons of Skype spam), or tweet to @gotmeadnow. If you want us to tackle your mead making questions, you can send us a question and we'll tackle it online! Join us, 9PM Eastern Tuesday night!! Bring your questions and your mead, and let's talk mead! You can call us at 803-443-MEAD (6323), or Skype us at meadwench (please friend me first and say you're a listener, I get tons of Skype spam), or tweet to @gotmeadnow. This player will show the most recent show, and when we're live, will play the live feed. If you are calling in, please turn off the player sound, so we don't get feedback. What we were drinking: AJ - Vicky - Manny - Ken - Show links and notes: Enology and stabilizing chemical calculators .5 Micron filters from MoreBeer Upcoming Events: Starrlight Meadery July 29th - International Tiger Day! In honor of that day, for the month of July we will be helping out our friends over at Carolina Tiger Rescue! For each tasting or glass of sangria that we sell during the month, we'll donate $2 to the Tiger Rescue July 2-3  - Red, White and Blueberry Celebration - Join us for some special red, white and blueberry sangria all weekend long. Plus, SLUSHIES! July 22 - Mead and a Sunset Cruise - Friday, July 22 - Join us, and Captain Don from Triangle Boat Tours, for one of our favorite outings - mead tasting and a 2 hour sunset cruise on Jordan Lake. Bos Meadery - multiple artistic events - check in on their calendar for movie nights, art displays and more! June 29 - Rashamon - A riveting psychological thriller that investigates the nature of truth and the meaning of justice, Rashomon is widely considered onevcof the greatest films ever made. July 2 - Mark Lint’s Dry Folk - Madisonian Mark Linsenmayer, veteran front-man of local bands Madison Lint (2001-2004) and New People (2006-2013) and host of two nationally reknowned podcasts, The Partially Examined Life and Nakedly Examined Music, July 9 - Daniel Mortensen - Daniel Mortensen has been playing guitar and harp for over 30 years to illustrious audiences such as His Dog and The Sofa. July 14 - Cam and Ellie Kennedy - presentations of original songs and selected covers, and their sound is filled with great voices, acoustic guitars, and multiple layers. July 15 - Matt Deblass - An evening of acoustic folk music performed with Celtic harp, voice, mandolin and other instruments.[break] Mace Meadworks at macemeadworks.com has live music every Saturday night at 250 East Main Street Dayton, Washington 99328[break] Honey Moon Mead - multiple events and open mic every Wednesday night June 29 - Open Mic with Scot Casey June 30 - Paige Woods Band B.Nektar Events: July 1st – *Tasting event* Riverside Liquors in Grand Rapids July 9th – Detroit Beer Book – Author signing at the B. Nekar Taproom July 15th-17th – Pig & Whiskey Event in Ferndale

Hi, everybody.  Hoje falamos sobre o idiom not see the forest for the trees e o que ele significa em inglês. Transcrição Hi, everybody. This is the new episode of the Inglês Online podcast. Please subscribe to this podcast using the Podcasts app for iPhone or iPad, or listen to the episodes using the Inglesonline Android app. Thanks for all the comments at the iTunes store and if you haven't yet left a comment for this podcast please do so: the more comments for the Inglês Online podcast, the more people will find out about it and listen to the episodes. Thank you for telling your friends, your neighbours, your family and keep listening. Today we'll tackle an idiom whose meaning wasn't obvious to me for a while until I looked for some clarification and then I finally got it. So picture this: you're in school and somehow you and your friend Ken have been chosen to organise the graduation party. So Ken thinks the party should be at Grand Party Salon. Yeah, that's what it's called: Grand Party Salon, and your friend Ken has his heart set on the Salon. He thinks it's the perfect place: it's spacious, centrally located, nicely decorated and affordable. So the two of you go ahead and try to book the Grand Party Salon for graduation night. Things start to get a bit complicated when the staff person says that there are a few restrictions for graduation parties, such as no one individual can have more than four drinks and also, there has to be an equal number of men and women sitting at every table. Ken cannot believe it. He and you both know it would be impossible to control everyone's individual alcohol consumption or guarantee an equal number of men and women at every table. You start saying "Well, guess we'll just have to look for another place..." but Ken wants to fight for the Salon. He won't even consider other options; it's the Salon or nothing. But the Salon people will just not budge; you feel Ken's wasting precious time as the graduation date approaches and you still have not locked down a location for the party. So one day you tell Ken it's time to drop the Salon and move on. You tell him that the Salon would be a great option but they're making unreasonable demands and there are other very nice options out there. You tell Ken "You have to let the Grand Party Salon go. You've become so attached to the idea of having the party there, that you can't see the forest for the trees anymore. We're not gonna have a party if we don't secure a venue fast! It's less than two months away and all our planning depends on where the party is going to be!" And then, somehow, Ken gets it. He says "Thank you, buddy! Thanks for opening my eyes. You're right - I lost sight of the forest." Ken got so involved with trying to negotiate the Salon that getting it became his major concern, and he totally lost sight of the fact that location, while important, is just one element of planning a party. There's a whole lot more involved and it was all being put on hold because he was so dead set on the Grand Salon. So that's what "not being able to see the forest for the trees" means: you're so focused on details that you fail to understand, or lose sight of the larger situation. I can remember doing this in my own life a couple of times - for example, when I was starting out with Inglês Online and spent way too much time thinking about the appearance of my website, when, instead, and all things considered, I should have focused on writing more useful content for my audience. For a while, I couldn't see the forest for the trees and misplaced my efforts - but thankfully, in the end, everything turned out fine. So give me your example of not seeing the forest for the trees. Let me know in the comments, and talk to you next time!   Key terms not see the forest for the trees   Vocabulário have your heart set on = querer muito (algo, fazer algo) lock down a location = arrumar, arranjar um local garantido

Hi, everybody.  Hoje falamos sobre o idiom not see the forest for the trees e o que ele significa em inglês. Transcrição Hi, everybody. This is the new episode of the Inglês Online podcast. Please subscribe to this podcast using the Podcasts app for iPhone or iPad, or listen to the episodes using the Inglesonline Android app. Thanks for all the comments at the iTunes store and if you haven't yet left a comment for this podcast please do so: the more comments for the Inglês Online podcast, the more people will find out about it and listen to the episodes. Thank you for telling your friends, your neighbours, your family and keep listening. Today we'll tackle an idiom whose meaning wasn't obvious to me for a while until I looked for some clarification and then I finally got it. So picture this: you're in school and somehow you and your friend Ken have been chosen to organise the graduation party. So Ken thinks the party should be at Grand Party Salon. Yeah, that's what it's called: Grand Party Salon, and your friend Ken has his heart set on the Salon. He thinks it's the perfect place: it's spacious, centrally located, nicely decorated and affordable. So the two of you go ahead and try to book the Grand Party Salon for graduation night. Things start to get a bit complicated when the staff person says that there are a few restrictions for graduation parties, such as no one individual can have more than four drinks and also, there has to be an equal number of men and women sitting at every table. Ken cannot believe it. He and you both know it would be impossible to control everyone's individual alcohol consumption or guarantee an equal number of men and women at every table. You start saying "Well, guess we'll just have to look for another place..." but Ken wants to fight for the Salon. He won't even consider other options; it's the Salon or nothing. But the Salon people will just not budge; you feel Ken's wasting precious time as the graduation date approaches and you still have not locked down a location for the party. So one day you tell Ken it's time to drop the Salon and move on. You tell him that the Salon would be a great option but they're making unreasonable demands and there are other very nice options out there. You tell Ken "You have to let the Grand Party Salon go. You've become so attached to the idea of having the party there, that you can't see the forest for the trees anymore. We're not gonna have a party if we don't secure a venue fast! It's less than two months away and all our planning depends on where the party is going to be!" And then, somehow, Ken gets it. He says "Thank you, buddy! Thanks for opening my eyes. You're right - I lost sight of the forest." Ken got so involved with trying to negotiate the Salon that getting it became his major concern, and he totally lost sight of the fact that location, while important, is just one element of planning a party. There's a whole lot more involved and it was all being put on hold because he was so dead set on the Grand Salon. So that's what "not being able to see the forest for the trees" means: you're so focused on details that you fail to understand, or lose sight of the larger situation. I can remember doing this in my own life a couple of times - for example, when I was starting out with Inglês Online and spent way too much time thinking about the appearance of my website, when, instead, and all things considered, I should have focused on writing more useful content for my audience. For a while, I couldn't see the forest for the trees and misplaced my efforts - but thankfully, in the end, everything turned out fine. So give me your example of not seeing the forest for the trees. Let me know in the comments, and talk to you next time!   Key terms not see the forest for the trees   Vocabulário   have your heart set on = querer muito (algo, fazer algo) lock down a location = arrumar,

This week, we discuss Masayoshi Sokens history within Square Enix. Enjoy! Spotlight: Masayoshi Soken By Joseph DeGolyer   Look, it’s hard to follow up after a huge success.   To every first generation of Saturday night live hosts, there’s always a second generation. Like Irvine Kershner after George Lucas. Like Jason Newsted after Cliff Burton. Like Andrew Johnson after Abraham Lincoln. Like Commodus after Marcus Aurelius.   Some, like Kershner, rise to meet the challenge. Others, like Andrew Johnson, do so terribly their effects sour generations. Even more are just forgotten with time.   For Example, Can you name the musical composer for Final Fantasy 12? How about 13?   For most of us, these names probably don’t pop so easily into our heads… (They are Hitoshi Sakimoto, Hayato Matsuo, Masaharu Iwata for FF12 and Masashi Hamauzu for 13 By the way---and yes, I did have to look those up.)   How can you possibly follow a legend like Nobuo Uematsu? With 12 main series Final Fantasy games composed primarily by him. With pieces like “theme of Love” from FF4 being taught to schoolchildren in Japan, and having the second-highest selling video game single ever (Eyes on Me, yes I still hate it, although I won’t deny the accomplishment), how can someone possibly fill his shoes.   You’ve heard the rumors… Is the next Uematsu here?   HAS THE CHOSEN ONE ARRIVED?   On that, who knows?   But let’s talk about him anyway.   This is our special Spotlight on Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn composer, Masayoshi Soken!!!   ----------------------------small musical interlude----------------------------------   Masayoshi Soken was born on January 10th, 1975 in La Paz Mexico. His father was a Trumpet Player in the NHK Symphony Orchestra for many years, as well as a professor at the Okinawa Prefectural University of Art. Why was his pregnant mother in mexico at the time of Soken’s birth? Who knows! Because he went straight from Mexico to Tokyo, Japan. There he grew to love music, learn piano, learn the guitar, and get into the Tokyo University of Science.   Now I’ve desperately been searching for what he got his degree in at University… There are departments there in Science, engineering, innovation studies, chemical sciences, pharmaceutical sciences, management, fire science, math, technology, and biology….   Basically, no music or sound design school.   Students are required to take some liberal arts stuff, according to the university’s website.   I figured, for fun, I’ll list off their principles on liberal arts-supplemented education:   “Leaders in science and technology are required to remain motivated to tackle, in cooperation with like minded people from different fields, cross-sectional and complex issues that transcend the borders of specialties, while maintaining a foothold in science and technology. We believe that cultivating such ability and supporting outstanding specialized skills are the role of liberal arts education. For this purpose, organizing a curriculum for liberal arts education should aim to cultivate the following types of ability. Ability to adopt a bird’s-eye perspective of nature, people, and society Ability to think logically and critically Communication skills Internationalism (ability to understand different cultures, languages, ethnic groups, and international issues) Self-management ability”   ----------------------------small musical interlude-------------------------------------   Whatever it was that he learned from University, be it Biology or his skill in “Internationalism”, he was able to get an interview at Square in 1998 to work in the sound department.   Apparently, his enthusiasm for rock and roll is what got him the job, as well as his sick skills on the guitar.   And he put that guitar skill to work with his first video game soundtrack credit for the game “Gekikuukan Pro Yakyuu At the End of the Century” in 1999. The game features his punk rock music tracks, as well as some of his sound design… Let’s take a listen to one of his first video game scores….   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyj_AjLK7E8   Soken would continue to work on sports games for Square, until Square decided that they were done making them. Before that time, would compose tracks for the games  Nichibeikan Pro Baseball: Final League and the soccer simulator World Fantasista…   Here’s a bit of sound from that game:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IphGvVxw9x8   ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   Now, Soken stayed quiet after the Sports Team was dissolved at square. My only assumption was that he was just lurking in sound design for various games, and not given any more opportunities to compose any music until 2005. There is some confusion regarding his credits, as Soken often went by pseudonyms during this time. It is believed that he co-created the piece "Endless Love, Endless Road” with Masashi Hamauzu and Tsuyoshi Sekito from a Final Fantasy X Tribute Album called “Feel/Go Dream Yuna & Tidus”in 2001. I don’t see any proof of this anywhere, but if Wikipedia says it, you know it’s true!!!!   I think it deserves a bit of a listen though, don’t you?   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqID7jQwnLQ   If you want more information on that album… It’s supposed to be songs about Tidus and Yuna… You can look up more if you want.   His next piece that we know of was the beginning jingle for the show “Square-Enix music TV” where Square’s video game composers would be interviewed and promote their music.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6hsXHXOEn8   On this front, in an attempt to promote himself, apparently he showed up at some kind of fan convention and fought some robots half-naked for Square-Enix players…   Perhaps this paid off, he got to compose one spoof soundtrack for Front Mission 5 called “Blue Stream”...   http://downloads.khinsider.com/game-soundtracks/album/front-mission-5-scars-of-the-war-original-soundtrack/321-blue-stream.mp3   And so his return to Composing was complete.   He would next go on to do the entire soundtrack for the Square/Nintendo collaboration Mario 3 on 3. Here’s a taste of that...   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehAZmNS6BPI&list=PLBBD787E4AD05D073   Now, as you can see, a lot of this stuff is more poppy in tone, and far from anything you’d hear in let’s say Final Fantasy 6, but I think that soken was just going pretty much where he was told. He contributed a remix for The Bouncer’s main theme, and he worked on Square-Enix’s web-based games Elebest, Game Brain, and Zenobuster.   He was moving up the ladder.   In 2007 he got the opportunity to play second fiddle to Kenji Ito on the score of Dawn of Mana in 2007.   Here’s his biggest contribution to that game, a track called “Sanctuary”... Sit back and relax for this one...   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDbxqrcxSkk   Now, that’s more like it, am I right?   Mr. Soken was still considered a mid-level composer in the company, and his next two projects “Nameless game” in 2008 would be a minor release on the DS, a Video Game adaptation of The Ring. The theme here, I think, shows that he can do more than pop, rock, and pretty piano pieces… He can create something epic...   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_8YugTt-Bc&list=PLfSOLl6OGya6nIZomTmyNp7MZaPnkt2f1&index=2   The last major game he’d work on before Final Fantasy XIV would be the game “Mario Sports Mix” in 2010.   I’ll play a bit of one of the pieces that showcases Soken’s punk rock style the most from this game…   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqjH20atoNE&list=PL8827B3786F638845&index=5   So, at some point he got hired on to do the sound direction for the 1.0 version of Final Fantasy XIV after this (Which, considering how huge the series is, that is still a massively important job in its own right). Nobuo Uematsu was making a one-off return to the series after going solo, and his shoes wouldn’t need to be filled until 1.0’s massive failure.   During the 1.0 to 2.0 debacle (you can listen to our FF14 review to learn all about that), Soken was given the double duty of directing the sound of both games. With no Uematsu, Soken had to fill in much of the soundtrack himself, eventually creating over 100 tracks for the new game, and later creating another 60 tracks for the Heavensward expansion.   Let’s go through a few of his most popular tracks from FF14. We’ll be putting up piano remixes these pieces, as I think that that may be the best way to truly appreciate the musicality of Soken--check the description for the links and check out the channels. For the true Soken audio, consult the game, or buy the albums.   This first one is called “Wailers and Waterwheels” arranged by Matt Fuss...   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmZRCxdvSvU&list=PLBEaChoG50t4iyMscJ9mwMc0fCEK2MNh3   Here’s a pretty cool version of “Leviathan” from Husky By the Geek...   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h37r9S0GdIs&index=13&list=PLpamuGhPkpi5sSydUiEYpP3FDpgeGdTP7   ...and we’ll play one more by the Shanghai Philharmonic Orchestra. This is “A New Hope”...   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p97GPoQDXfc   ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   For our closing statements on Masayoshi Soken, I’d like to say that I think he’s got incredible potential as far as his future work is concerned. Many FF14 players have gathered around his music in particular, praising it over Uematsu’s work on the same game.   I think the Jury’s still out on this one, but I sense great things from Masayoshi Soken in the future.   Let’s fade out with my favorite piece from Heavensward that I’ve heard so far… This is “Contention”. A remix by Benjamin Antony James…   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-9WEwgevEg

So Ken's off taking his kiddo to college while Sam and Simon run amuck in the studio! The lads talk Curry & Gazza, Leicester, players and have a right old laugh and occasional cry in this 3rd installment of season 2's Hotspur America podcast. Enjoy Yids!

So Ken's off taking his kiddo to college while Sam and Simon run amuck in the studio! The lads talk Curry & Gazza, Leicester, players and have a right old laugh and occasional cry in this 3rd installment of season 2's Hotspur America podcast. Enjoy Yids!

So Ken and I were the beginning Break My Fall. Soon, the key club trip to Camp Sunshine rolled around and Eric and I began talking seriously about music and he auditioned. He blew our minds and we moved our equipment to his house when Mike called us out of the blue. I had originally requested him for the band but he was at the time in another group. They broke up and he was free as a bird, so he wondered if he could still audition, he did and he blew us away. We rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed and played our first gig on a boat for my mothers birthday. We wrote some originals and got the amazing chance to play the main stage of the Worcester Palladium in a battle of the bands. We recorded a live demo and decided we really needed something to complete our sound. We started scouting for a lead vocalist and a mutual friend Ryse auditioned, we had seen her once or twice and were friends of her solo acoustic act. In a crowded house of friends, Ryse grabbed a mic and jammed with us, she got the job and we got our sound. So here we are, and we're here to stay, we're Break My Fall http://www.myspace.com/br3akmyfa11 www.wscafm.org fantalkwscafm@gmail.com

Dr. Nelson Soken, co-author of Lead the Pack: Sparking Innovation that Drives Customers Wild, joins Tim Keirnan for a discussion of the book and its principles. At the Human Factors & Ergonomics Society annual meeting in 2009, Dr. Nelson Soken delivered the keynote presentation to the Product Design technical group based on his book. Tim like it so much he bought the book and is now proud to interview Dr. Soken on Design Critique.User experience research and design concepts underlie a majority of the book's themes and this episode is valuable for anyone doing human factors or UX work in support of product design. As Dr. Soken emphasizes, people and our relationships to them in the workplace are a very big part of innovating.You can find the book at:http://www.leadthepackthebook.com/In addition to the "Contact the Authors" link at the above website, you can also find the authors at their LinkedIn pages. Just log in to your LinkedIn account and search their names:Nelson SokenWill Wengert