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As a property management business owner, how do you find the best people to build an effective sales team? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow Podcast, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Bob Lachance, founder of REVA Global, to talk about how you can utilize virtual assistants for lead generation and growth. You'll Learn [01:22] Identifying a Need in the Real Estate Industry [08:53] How to Utilize VAs in Your Business [14:35] Creating a Hiring System in Your Business [19:30] Using VAs for Lead Generation Tweetables “When marketing consistently goes out, what we find is all those leads end up piling up.” “Over 70% of all sales never happen on the first touch.” “People want to do business with people they see, feel, touch, and like.” “Property management can definitely be death by a thousand cuts.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Bob: Virtual assistants are a big part of anyone's business. In my opinion today, I think you got to start looking at that because small businesses, a lot of times, especially when we start, we are on a tight budget. [00:00:12] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities daily variety unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:10] Jason: Now let's get into the show. And today's guest is Bob. Do you say Lachance? [00:01:18] Jason: Lachance. Yep. Lachance. [00:01:20] Jason: I nailed it. All right. So Bob, great to have you on the show. And, Bob, you are helping people discover the top marketing channels that can maximize lead generation when working with VAs. And so we're going to chat a bit about that today before we get into that, tell everybody a little bit about you, how you got into entrepreneurism and what led you to what you're doing now. [00:01:43] Bob: Yeah. So right now I'll just start right now. I have a real estate investment company as well. And I have a virtual assistant staffing company, so I use my VAs in my own business. So I have a rental portfolio as well as a buy sell fix flip company here in Connecticut, doing a couple of different states, but I started back about 20, 21 years ago now back in 2004. [00:02:06] Bob: I played professional hockey prior to that for eight years and then got into real estate. And you know, from real estate, helped start an education program while I was, you know, working on properties. I did a lot of, you know, fixed flip wholesaling, all that kind of good stuff. This is, again, I'm dating myself, but this is back in 2004. [00:02:25] Bob: And through the process, when I helped start this education company there was a huge need in the industry, just like you, right? You see a need out there. And I'm a lot like you on that side of it, helping people and figuring out, you know, where they could. Create passive income or income in general. [00:02:42] Bob: So, during the coaching program, while I was in it, I realized there was a huge need. Majority of the students that I coached didn't have the time to actually put into their real estate business because they were either working part time or full time. They just needed to, you know, they needed help. And for years, upon years, I was looking for a solution for that. [00:03:01] Bob: Whether it was a product I didn't know back then, again, this is going back from 2007 to 2013. I didn't know there was any services out there, like what virtual assistants were. And then I got introduced back in 2013 what a virtual assistant was. You know what this could help my business So I hired my first one and then light bulb went on like, you know what we could turn this into a business I could take the back end of what it helps create which is the real estate education company And our students could use it to help them grow their business help scale help, you know, get your time and freedom back. So launched it in 2014 and then fast forward today you know 10 years later i've been in business for a while and I also have like I said my real estate investment company [00:03:45] Jason: Nice. [00:03:46] Jason: Nice. All right. And so let's get into the topic at hand. So, we're going to talk a little bit about leveraging virtual assistants. And so how did you kind of start doing this yourself? [00:03:58] Bob: Yeah well, when I first got into this, like I said I door knocked first, we didn't have the opportunity to have, you know, virtual assistants do some outbound stuff. [00:04:07] Bob: And I didn't understand, you know, I didn't understand what outsourcing was when I first started. It was just me. I had an individual who was my business partner back in the day, but first year I door knocked. I went from door to door, individuals that were behind on payments. So it wasn't the easiest job in the world, but it allowed you to understand how to build a business from ground up. [00:04:29] Bob: I think that was very important back then. So nowadays you can have virtual assistants do that, whether it's you know, cold calling, whether it's responding to direct mail, whether it's text messaging, whether it's social media, whether it's going out to, you know, Facebook marketplace and going right direct to seller, you also have rarely used now Craigslist, of course, but there's different ways to acquire and use your virtual assistant to do that. So that's just, again, a long and short. [00:04:54] Jason: So go ahead and tell people a little bit about your company and what you help people do. And I'm really curious because this is usually a difficult thing for business owners to outsource. [00:05:05] Jason: Usually they'll outsource some of the lowest level stuff, and it's usually not towards growth, lead generation, outreach, stuff like that. Those pieces can be really difficult to get dialed in or to do effectively. And so, tell us a little bit about REVA global? Okay. Yeah. [00:05:22] Bob: So, you know, like I said, we started back in 2014. [00:05:26] Bob: Like I said, I've been doing this for a long time and just to fast forward to what that looks like today and working with property managers, because obviously the individuals that are on your podcast here, I'll speak to them. And I know, you know, many people that also buy and hold also probably do fix and flip or also may wholesale, but it's kind of the same concept, but there's a lot of different tasks within it that virtual assistants can do. [00:05:50] Bob: So what I did is I broke up all the stuff that our VA is doing in my own business because you know, many individuals that are listening to this will relate to a company like ours because like I said, we have a real estate investment company, but we also use our VA's which I think is pretty cool. I think Nowadays, it's very important as a service provider like myself to use it to make sure it works so I think that's a pretty unique thing that we actually have. But what we do, we have virtual assistants that acquire, we call them like a department of acquisition. So if you're looking for leads, you could do cold calling, you do text blasting, you could do lead management. You know, lead management, a lot of us, I'm just like, you will have all these leads in your database, but if you don't get ahold of them the first time, your marketing is going to consistently go out. So when marketing consistently goes out, what we find is all those leads end up piling up. And if you try to reach out to them the first time, you know you have a very small percentage that are actually going to pick up the phone. Right? So you need somebody then that will continue to follow up on those leads. [00:06:57] Bob: And a national statistic is over 70% of all sales never happen on the first touch, right? So you have to continue. And I think that's probably 90 or 95 percent nowadays. So that's what we find in our office. And I know a lot of our clients say the same thing. So that number could change a little bit depending on what you read, but our experience in our office is over 90%. [00:07:21] Bob: So what I mean by that is the first touch, whether it's direct mail call or a cold call, whatever you do for direct mail or whatever you do for marketing, that first touch will not equate to a contract, so you're going to have somebody that's continuing to follow up with those individuals. Very important. [00:07:39] Bob: I wish I would have understood that stat when I first started real estate. But again, you know, you learn over time. Another stuff. If you look at other tasks as well, that works very well is marketing. Right social media management because you look at any type of business if you don't have marketing It's very difficult brand awareness, right people want to do business with people they see, feel, touch, and like so you need to make sure that you're out there You're out in the public's eye. [00:08:05] Bob: I think that's very important. I know you guys do a great job of that Jason on the marketing side of always being out there because I see in a lot of different places everywhere I'm looking online. So whoever's doing your stuff man, great job. So you're doing a fantastic job on that side of it. And then you go into leasing so if we look at property management you know driving leads is one thing, but you also have to, you know, close them. [00:08:27] Bob: So if it's you, me, or whoever's the one on the phone locking up those deals, it then goes to once you own them, you got leasing, you got move in, move out, you have collection, you have evictions, you have maintenance, you have accounts receivable, you have accounts payable, bookkeeping, accounting etc that fall underneath that property management umbrella, that virtual assistants are phenomenal to actually take on those tasks for you. [00:08:52] Jason: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the typical process for somebody that could use some help from a company like yours? How do you engage them? [00:09:01] Jason: What's onboarding like? How does that work? [00:09:03] Bob: I think for anybody who's looking to scale or looking to just get help in their business. You know, here in Connecticut, it's pretty interesting because if you're looking to hire someone in house, you start looking at what's going on with the world and what's going on with the economy in state of Connecticut, minimum wage is up to $15.69. [00:09:24] Bob: So when you start looking at that I know in my area, if I try to hire someone at minimum wage, they don't have a four year college degree. That's just not the highest level individual that you'd want working in your office. And so now you start looking at those things and what's happening around the country. [00:09:42] Bob: Virtual assistants are very are a big part of anyone's business. In my opinion today, I think you got to start looking at that because small businesses, a lot of times, especially when we start, we are on a tight budget. Right. And so for us to start to scale or start to grow or start to hire, we really need to look at what's going out, meaning out of our pocket. [00:10:04] Bob: So it's very important. So they first look at number one, what can we afford as small business owners? If we look at that number, now we start looking at what tasks in our business do not put money in our pocket. Right? And if you look in your world, meaning the property management world, it is a lot of the tasks like leasing, like taking calls from tenants, move in, move outs, eviction process when you're calling attorneys back and forth. What does that look like? There's just a lot of back and forth, right? Maintenance concerns. You get those all the time and those are the things that burn up your time. Your phone doesn't stop ringing. [00:10:44] Bob: So if your husband or wife wants to go on vacation with you and your phone doesn't stop ringing. That's going to put a lot of stress and a lot of challenges in your personal life to where, especially when you continue to grow. You have to put more systems and processes in your business. You know, if you had one house, that's one headache. [00:11:02] Bob: You had two, that's two headaches. You have a hundred, you have a hundred potential headaches that if you don't want to take those headaches on yourself, it's always good to have somebody else take those headaches before it gets to you. [00:11:15] Jason: Yeah. Property management can definitely be death by a thousand cuts. [00:11:18] Bob: Yep. [00:11:18] Jason: Yep. And if you get it really well dialed in though, yeah, it can be a really great residual income business model. [00:11:25] Bob: So Very good. Very good. Well, two sides of it, right? You buy, right? You have an equity play there, right? And if you don't have to deal with the headache, you get the positive income, you get tax advantages, things like that. [00:11:36] Bob: So, I mean, I'm a huge advocate of buying and holding and property management because over time, the more, like you said, the more properties you actually hold, the bigger your income grows. [00:11:48] Jason: Nice. Yeah. Cool. So, so I love this. There's lots of low level tasks. It does get really expensive trying to afford staff and team members and you don't want the cheapest or lowest level or worst people. [00:12:02] Jason: You know, in the United States representing your business. And so, sometimes you can get people at a fraction of the price point that have a lot more education that are a lot better. And so when you, any of the roles that are able to be done virtually, you open yourself up to a global marketplace rather than just your local city. [00:12:22] Jason: And so, yeah, so there's definitely advantages. So my entire team are virtual and I've got team members in various areas, Canada, Philippines. Egypt gosh, I don't know where else like all over the place and I've hired people over the past and just about everywhere. So yeah. And so, and so I'm not limited, so I'm able to just go find the best and I'm able to figure out, okay what can kind of fit into our budget and what can we afford in order to do that. [00:12:49] Bob: Right. And to your point, to get back to what that looks like, I mean, anyone in this world could go out and go source for their own candidates. You know, we set up a very unique system process. We have a whole sourcing and recruiting team. All my virtual assistants are in the Philippines. We set up a sourcing and recruiting team out of the Philippines, so they're Looking through, you know, thousands of resumes every single month sifting through and we're getting the best of those Resumes that come in as soon as they pass then they go through an interview process. [00:13:22] Bob: They pass the interview process They go to our training team and they train for about a month on various tasks property management tasks lead generation tasks, etc And then once they actually get to the end of that stage, they do another test and a lot of individuals do not pass our testing phase. And that's a positive thing because, you know, that's a way to kind of weed out the individuals that wouldn't make it, yeah, very good. [00:13:48] Bob: So, after that goes to our placements team and our placements team, it's kind of like match. com. They look at exactly what you're, you know, what the tasks are. And we do DISC profiling, things like that, and predictive index. And we look at the tasks that they're good at, and we match them exactly up with the client and the tasks that they're looking for. [00:14:05] Bob: So for instance, if someone's looking for a bookkeeper, you're not going to give them a profile that's a sales profile, right? You're going to, you're going to give them the correct profile. You put them together, they go through an interview process, and they pick the best candidate that fits within them so after that, it goes to our operations team. We have what we call a client service manager that helps manage the relationship between you and your va, so it's very streamlined. [00:14:27] Bob: You know, we tried every different business model there is out there and the model that we have right now seems to be the best model. [00:14:34] Jason: Nice. Yeah, I always recommend if you're a property manager like watching this or listening if you don't have a really solid hiring process you have not like tested embedded and experimented with, then the best initial way to do hiring is to leverage other companies' hiring processes. Go and work with a company and there's lots of different companies I've worked with over the years to get people on my team, and then eventually we've built a really good process internally, but In the beginning, I do think every business eventually needs their own hiring system, but if you don't have a great robust hiring system that you can get candidates consistently, that you know are a good culture fit, a good skill fit for the role, a good personality fit for the role then you need to go leverage somebody else's hiring system. [00:15:20] Jason: So I would highly recommend, especially if you're going to dabble with VAs, especially in the Philippines or any other area, that you want to not be dealing with all the riff raff and the challenges and everything else. You want to have some help with this. So I highly recommend you leverage somebody else's hiring system. And they're going to help you not waste as much time and money for sure. [00:15:46] Bob: And that's one of the things that's a great very great point because when you're first starting out or you're smaller. The best thing to do is learn off of others, right? [00:15:55] Bob: It's you'll walk through a company like mine. You say, "wow, what a great system." You know what? Document what we do and then implement it in your own business if you start growing. I think that is a fantastic idea, Jason, for that. Because, you know, you look at the biggest companies in the world. [00:16:09] Bob: They didn't just, you know, start being the biggest companies in the world or that, you know, it doesn't, you don't have to be the biggest, but they learned from somebody and they started implementing and they tested, you don't always get it right the first time. But after a while you will hone in and get that right. [00:16:24] Bob: So I 100 percent agree whether it's with our company or anybody else. Like I said, anyone could do anything themselves. It all depends on what you need help with at the beginning. [00:16:34] Jason: Yeah. And it also depends on how long do you want to suck until you figure it out. [00:16:40] Bob: That's true. [00:16:41] Jason: Like so if you want to collapse time, I highly recommend. Because I know when I started experimenting with hiring in the Philippines. Like there's just things you don't even think to ask like we had to ask like where are you accessing the internet? [00:16:53] Jason: Is this like at a cafe at your home? Is it reliable? What kind of computer do you have? You know, we needed to be able to you know there's just so many little quality controls we had to implement in order to figure out if they would be a good candidate, I mean, I've had team members in the Philippines with chickens going off constantly in the background and roosters crowing and like all sorts of stuff and their internet going up and down and so you know, there's there's a lot of quality controls that I think need to be put in place because it's not America. We have a little bit more stability in our infrastructure and in our internet connections and everything else. [00:17:29] Jason: And so, and then, you know, it helps to have somebody that manages the relationship like your company, because a lot of times, in that culture, they can be a little bit shy, I think at times, or a little bit nervous about displeasing their employer or giving honest feedback. And so they tend to ghost or disappear. [00:17:49] Jason: People have talked about people in the Philippines doing this. And so having somebody manage that relationship as a liaison can help improve the results that you're getting from team members. And but the cost savings are awesome. I mean, it's like a third to a half of what you would get and you can get college educated people, you get people that have like lots and lots of experience and skill, and they are able to be paid very well for their area. [00:18:14] Jason: And for you, it's seems like a steal. So. [00:18:17] Bob: And that's one of the things that we pride ourselves on. I mean, you nailed it. You touched upon all of that. You know, we make sure there's backup. We make sure there's the right internet connection, the right computer system, etc. So to your point that is definitely something for everyone listening to this to look at because the vetting process, that's what I found the most tiring. When I first hired my first VA, I got it wrong a lot, to be honest with you. And I didn't ask any of those questions. And then it's kind of funny to talk about the rooster. That happened to me. And that was before I actually owned the company. And then I started my company. That's one of the things I'm like, all right, we have to listen for, right? [00:18:52] Bob: What's your background, what's your surrounding, right to your point. And then you start learning over time. And then the more interviews you go on, the more stuff you learn, right? Like you said, you don't learn or you don't know all this stuff until you actually go through the process. And I think it's important for you to understand if you're going to do this, know that you're going to have a lot of pain up front when you hire at the beginning, right? And then you work with a company like mine and you'll realize you didn't go through that pain, but then you want to go hire someone. And then you decide to then throw your hat in the ring and do this yourself. [00:19:25] Bob: 100%. The questions to ask, just like Jason said up front, those are some of the things to look at. [00:19:30] Jason: You know, based on the stuff that you said, I there's a lot of. Property management targeted, you know, VA companies leveraging talent in the Philippines, but it seems like one of the things you brought up that seems to be unique to what you guys do that's different than most of the others, or maybe all of them is the focus on client acquisition, lead gen, and on the sales side of things. [00:19:53] Jason: Most are usually focused on trying to find VAs that are more like executive assistants or that are going to do tasks and be told what to do rather than people that you can trust to be the initial connection and face of your business. [00:20:08] Bob: You know what it's interesting, again, it's interesting you say that because I've been in this business for about 21 years, real estate investing. [00:20:14] Bob: And we realized over time that If you don't have, you talk about acquisition and lead generation, if you don't have leads for any of our businesses, we are going to struggle to make ends meet, right? So you have to figure out a way that's going to drive in leads to your business. I mean, I know for me, I'll just give you a perfect example. [00:20:32] Bob: When I door knocked, I went door to door to door every day from 10 a. m. to 3 p. m. But when I go home, I'd get that list and I would skip trace it back in the day You'd use 401. com white pages, and I would look for the best possible phone number for that individual then I would call. So when I got home, I would skip trace then I'll call until seven at night until I had to eat dinner with the family. But over time, I was beat up. [00:20:55] Bob: I don't recommend doing that anymore. You don't have to do that anymore because you can hand over those tasks over to a virtual assistant. And they're the ones that are going to be doing the outreach for you. And again, I do recommend you should try it because you'll realize you know, open your mind and understand that outsourcing that task will really give your energy back and bring your success up. [00:21:16] Bob: You may feel, well, I don't think anyone could do that task better than me. We all said, I know you said it before, Jason, I've said it. We all feel that way. And if you think about it, if they do 80 percent as good as you, that's a huge win. Now you get to do other tasks. That's going to drive business and revenue to your business. [00:21:36] Jason: Even if they do it half as well as you, but they're getting. You know, half the result and you're able to hire two or three of them and not do that work. Like it's easily time and money well spent. So it's consistency, right? [00:21:48] Bob: It's all the consistency. If you have something, a task that gets on a consistent manner, consistent basis every single day, you will get results by the end of the week. [00:21:58] Jason: Yeah. So what are kind of SLA you know, you know, what do you sort of think are the metrics or KPIs for as an appointment setter or somebody trying to help, you know, maybe reaching out directly to owners or maybe reaching out to schedule, I don't know, appointments with real estate agents to build referral relationships. [00:22:17] Jason: How many calls should they make a day? If this is their full time gig and how many appointments do you think they should be booking? [00:22:22] Bob: Well, it depends. So if you have, so for instance, if you have a, you know, triple line dialer, as an example, it depends if you're, you know, calling just on a, you know, on your phone and just dial like this, but there's a lot of very good technology out there. [00:22:36] Bob: You got mojo dialer, you have things like that actually are very good. You may have a company that you refer, Jason, that you could tell everyone but you're probably calling if you're full time, anywhere between 400 and 600 dials using that dialer, not manual dialing. You're probably going to hit about a hundred, 150 if you're manually dialing. [00:22:57] Bob: And that's a day. Yeah. But if you have a triple line dialer, you're going to hit on average 400 to 600 and this is just what I've seen through the years that I've been doing this. You may have a technology that burns through a thousand calls and then you're going to be listening to me saying, well, Bob, you're a hundred percent wrong. [00:23:13] Bob: I'm just telling you what I see on a daily basis and what comes out of, you know, mine and my client's offices. [00:23:19] Jason: I think yeah, even if they're doing it manually, if they can get a hundred to two hundred calls a day and get two appointments booked a day, like, so they're getting roughly about 10 a week. [00:23:27] Jason: Like that's a solid result for an appointment setter. [00:23:31] Bob: That's a win. That's a win. You're looking at, if you're looking for, so we call them ITS's in our office, interested to sell. I know other people call it different, but that's what we look for. Same exact thing. One to two per day per VA. [00:23:44] Jason: Nice. Yeah, very cool. And those listening, I'm sure all of you would love to have one or two appointments booked for you per day, and that would fill up a nice little chunk of your time and help you close some deals. So, yeah. [00:23:57] Bob: Especially on the buy and hold side Jason. It's a lot easier to look at your numbers. [00:24:03] Bob: And I know you have a formula that you guys look at to make sure the rent and you know, what the interest rates are today, et cetera, et cetera, whatever financing you have, but it is easier on the buy and hold side to fit within your buy box, right? Rather than having to go at, you know, 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 percent of the value. [00:24:20] Bob: When you fund it out and then try to resell it. So it's a different kind of mindset. So you're very fortunate if you're going to buy and hold your buy box is usually different than somebody who's either trying to wholesale or fix and flip. [00:24:32] Jason: Got it. So we've probably got some property management business owners listening to this. [00:24:37] Jason: And for some reason, maybe they're just crazy and they have not yet worked with DoorGrow yet, but they're like, Hey, I would like to grow, add some doors and maybe have somebody do some calls and reach out to Bob. How could they get in touch with you and how can they initiate a conversation? [00:24:54] Bob: Well, you can check us out on our all of our social, of course, but REVA Global. R-E-V-A Global. com. If you have any specific questions, obviously for you, you could just reach me direct at bob@revaglobal.com. [00:25:07] Jason: Awesome. Hey Bob, thanks for coming on the show. Any parting words for entrepreneurs that are struggling, they've never hired an assistant yet they, even if they've built out part of their team or an entire team already, which is ludicrous to me, but what would you say to them? [00:25:22] Bob: Well, I would say number one, get started, of course, but number two, I would say you got to set up your processes and systems and get them done consistently because if you just get success here. And then you stop doing it. Real estate's a long game. You know, like I said, I started this 21 years ago and I wish I knew what I knew now back then. [00:25:43] Bob: I would start buying properties back then because right now I'd be retired with thousands of doors and rental income of a thousand doors. But I started a little bit later. [00:25:54] Jason: Hey, Bob, we appreciate you coming and hanging out with me on the DoorGrow show today. And I'm excited to see if you helped maybe some of our clients listening or some of the people let me know what results they get and maybe we'll have you come back on. [00:26:07] Bob: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. [00:26:08] Jason: All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur, you're struggling to add doors, you're struggling to figure out how to grow your business. We want to help you. We want to support you. Reach out to us at DoorGrow. com. You can also join our free community at DoorGrow club. com. Go there. Answer the questions. We reject 60 to 70 percent of applicants. It's just for property management business owners And if you get inside, we'll give you some free stuff that'll help you out and help out your business. So that's it for today until next time to our mutual growth I'm, Jason Hull, and I hope you crush it. [00:26:40] Jason: Bye, everybody. [00:26:40] Jason: You just listened to the DoorGrowShow We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com Listen everyone is doing the same stuff SEO PPC pay-per-lead content social direct mail and they still struggle to grow at DoorGrow We solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business Find out more at doorgrow.com Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe until next time take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.
Father James Kubicki joins Patrick to discuss Practicing Your Faith Daily (7:58) How do we prevent daily prayer from just being routine and not impacting our life? What is the value of having a routine? (19:53) Break 1 Father Kubicki discusses his new book on daily reflections (24:43) Bob - It is very important to have a set time and a set PLACE for daily prayer. I have built a chapel inside the closet. Maria - Morning and Evening Prayer from the Liturgy of The Hours is a great way to pray daily - She is a 3rd Order Dominican. (36:03) Bashann - How can we have our prayer life be more alive, and not just part of a checklist? (40:55) Break 2 What other ways can we practice our faith other than prayer on a daily basis? Connie - Being prepared to do my daily prayer in the morning... I arrived 30 min before I start work to the office, so I can be in the car praying without distractions (47:21) Georgia - What point do you stop allowing kids not to participate in family prayers? I have 8 children, when they hit the teen years they don't want to be part of. I try to give them that space, or should I have basic expectation? Resources A Year of Daily Offerings https://ignatius.com/a-year-of-daily-offerings-ydop/
gliding towards a crashreflections on this moment Note: This bonus episode is from my ‘a calm presence' substack about ‘short, practical essays about collapse acceptance, adaptation, response and art'. Cover photo was taken by me at Tribune Bay, Hornsby Island, BC on September 17, 2024.Friends and colleagues often ask me why I focus my energies on ‘anticipating, observing, and experiencing societal disruption and collapse' (deep adaptation forum).A good question. Instead of societal collapse, Arno Kopecky (author of The Environmentalist's Dilemma: Promise and Peril in an Age of Climate Crisis and an upcoming guest on conscient e206), suggested to me in a September 14, 2024 email that I consider focusing on : a thriving society lens so that we're running toward something beautiful, rather than fleeing something terrible.A good point.Arno also mentions that ‘ultimately it's the same thing', e.g., that societal collapse and societal revitalisation follow essentially the same path, but I would agree that running towards something positive is more interesting (and useful than the negative). Duly noted (as they say on the Canadaland podcast).However, I have to admit that I quite often fall into collapse rabbit holes and sometimes can't see the light so I call upon guests from previous episodes, such as e165 bill crandall - art can change usBeing an artist, or making art, in the context of climate is more about being a kind of light in the darkness, making us believe in ourselves and believe in the future so that we want to endeavor to save the thing that we have, our habitat. Some people like to say art can't change the world, but art can change us. Then we can change the world more effectively.So here's my answer to the ‘focus' question. It's a story about a story that I recorded in e202 coman poon - what are you doing with your life ? : When I first met Vanessa (Andreotti) in 2019, I think she shared this story with me about, you know, the metaphor of the plane crashed as a way of talking about the time of the great turning, so to speak, for lack of a better term. And this idea is that there is no. There is no prevention of the crime, right? If you and I, and, you know, every living thing that is on, so called, the plane is on Pachamama, Mother Earth with us, we're going through a crash. We're going through, you know, six, extinction, we're going through climate collapse, geopolitical collapse, economic collapse, all types of overlapping, interlaced cycles of destruction. And like on planes, what you can do, at best, is to get ready for a glide as opposed to a hard landing, because that means some will survive, and those that survive aren't necessarily the lucky ones. So while we're on the plane, you know, instead of putting on our noise canceling earphones, pretending that we're not in a sardine can, we could try turning to each other, saying hello. So many things can happen between the moment when we know the plane is going to crash, that there's no getting away from that and the crash itself. So my invitation is to the listeners, what are you doing? What are you doing before the crash, in this time? What are you doing with your life? How are you going to actually weave connection? Because it's still possible to operate without hope. It's absolutely imperative.‘Saying hello' is what I try to do with every ‘a calm presence' posting and also the conscient podcast - balado conscient. Saying hello in Coman's way. I don't feel doomist, defeatist or nihilistic in saying that.I don't feel like I'm being overly negative, proselytizing, virtue signalling or being self-righteous, though I have certainly done that in the past, and probably will again.I produced an episode about this: e111 traps - what are the traps in your life?:Observer: I see a trap called proselytizing which happens when people try to teach and convince others that a particular issue of interest should be the most important thing for everyone. Me: Wait a second, I do that all the time as a climate activist and with my art and ecology podcast and… Observer :(interrupting) of course you do and well you should - no worries - but, the danger is that your work could be perceived as an effort to assert ‘moral high ground' and while this trap may be driven by a genuine passion for an issue, and you certainly are passionate about your work, it has the potential to impose onto others in a way that does not respect their own un/learning journey, and often actually has the opposite effect, pushing people away rather than inviting them in. Me: Ya, Ya, I see. Let me think about that.Observer: Sure and when this trap occurs, it can be useful to ask, for example, why do I need to teach or convince or inspire others about my learning experience? Where is this perceived need stemming from? And if you really feel you need to bring something to the attention of others, maybe you can ask yourself: What is the most pedagogically responsible and effective thing to do so that your message can land?But this is different. It feels good to accept reality. Not good, good because it's actually awful and very painful, as we feel the disappearance of life unfold around us but for it's better to accept reality than to live in denial. It's better to undergo a lens shift and therefore see and feel things as they really are. It's better to be ready to die at any moment knowing that the truth of that moment was our final breath. Now none of this is new. Buddhism and similar spiritual practices have been teaching us this forever. So what's next?I try keep this excerpt from Robert Janes' Museums and Societal Collapse : The Museum as Lifeboat in mind:Hopeless need not mean helpless. On the contrary, hopelessness is the springboard to helpfulness – supportive, effective, and useful.'In other words, how to be supportive, effective and useful while living on a plane that is gliding towards an inevitable crash.My energy is not focused on fixing that gliding plane in mid-flight - tempting as that might be - but rather to focus on those who survive the crash so that they might have a fresh start. And for those who follow the conscient podcast season 6 will beginning sometime in 2025 on ‘art and culture in times of crisis and collapse':Claude: Welcome to conscient podcast, Bob. Bob: Well, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. Claude: Now this is the beginning of season six, so I'm quite excited. And it's also early days. Today is Monday, September 16th, 2024, and we're at your farm (on Denman Island) and we've just been walking around with your son. It's actually not your farm, but your son's farm or both of you. Bob: It's a partnership. . Claude: So I'm not absolutely clear what season six is going to be in the end - t's early days- but I do know that I want to talk about art and culture in times of crisis and collapse and I see your book in front of me here called Museums and Societal Collapse : The museum as Lifeboat…I'm also working on an Artist Survival Kit.I sometimes think it should be called ‘Artist Thriving Kit' but I'm not there yet. Thanks for listening. *END NOTES FOR ALL EPISODESI've been producing the conscient podcast as a learning and unlearning journey since May 2020 on un-ceded Anishinaabe Algonquin territory (Ottawa). It's my way to give back and be present.In parallel with the production of the conscient podcast and it's francophone counterpart, balado conscient, I publish a Substack newsletter called ‘a calm presence' which are 'short, practical essays about collapse acceptance, adaptation, response and art'. To subscribe (free of charge) see https://acalmpresence.substack.com. You'll also find a podcast version of each a calm presence posting on Substack or one your favorite podcast player.Also, please note that a complete transcript of conscient podcast and balado conscient episodes from season 1 to 4 is available on the web version of this site (not available on podcast apps) here: https://conscient-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes.Your feedback is always welcome at claude@conscient.ca and/or on conscient podcast social media: Facebook, X, Instagram or Linkedin. I am grateful and accountable to the earth and the human labour that provided me with the privilege of producing this podcast, including the toxic materials and extractive processes behind the computers, recorders, transportation systems and infrastructure that made this production possible. Claude SchryerLatest update on July 20, 2024
Sarah returns to the pub to catch Vicky before she starts work at Carmella's She explains that Pete was arrested in a dawn raid on suspicion of Heather's murder Harry has brought his van in for a service. Dan rushes in late; apologises to Bob It's a nightmare looking after the kids on his own while Laura's in hospital Jordan and Ryan discuss how Tom was abused in prison. Jordan thinks he has PTSD She's hoping to get him help through her and Charlotte's charity partners The couple discuss Vicky's reaction to Pete's arrest – how she didn't believe it Of course, she didn't, says Alyson. No one likes to think they were married to a killer Ryan has brought Moll and Sharon in to talk about their forthcoming radio shows Sharon wants to feature guests eg: Trevor and Doreen – to get some banter going The couple are enjoying a curry and talking about the arrest of Pete Sanderson Fiona tells Barry she knew Heather well, and is shocked that this could happen here
This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit nonzero.substack.comSeems like only last week I was saying there wouldn't be a Nonzero Newsletter sent out today, owing to the end-of-summer quasi-vacation granted to hard-working NZN staffers. And it's true that the Earthling, the weekend edition of NZN, is skipping this week and next. However, yesterday I had a conversation that was so timely and interesting that I figured I'd share some transcript excerpts—below—with NZN subscribers.The conversation is with Nikita Petrov, who left Russia shortly after the invasion of Ukraine but is monitoring the Russian zeitgeist (and publishing his newsletter Psychopolitica) from Armenia. The subject of the conversation is Yevgeny Prigozhin, long-time leader of the mercenary Wagner Group.This June, you might remember, Prigozhin staged a short-lived mutiny against Russia's military leadership. So when his plane blew up a couple of days ago, pretty much everyone suspected Putin's handiwork. (Although, as Nikita explains, according to a conspiracy theory circulating in Russia, there's less to Prigozhin's apparent death than meets the eye.)Paid subscribers can listen to the full conversation via the audio player above or via their NZN member podcast feed. (To set up that feed, if you're a paid subscriber and haven't done that already, click “Listen on” in the audio player and follow the directions.) Hope you enjoy the excerpts below. More of the conversation will be available in the public podcast we post next week, though the Overtime segment—the final 40 minutes or so—will remain exclusive to paid subscribers.—BobBob: We're taping this on the day after a plane went down that apparently included Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of the Wagner Group, along with his top commander, the guy from whom the Wagner Group got its name—“Wagner” was his call sign. Nikita: Yep.Bob: And I actually haven't even looked at the news this morning, but it didn't seem to me there was that much doubt, even though they hadn't identified bodies or anything. I assume no one's doubting that he's— Nikita: Well, there are two main theories that I've been hearing. One is the straightforward one: Prigozhin and the top command are dead, and Putin is behind it. The other version is: This is Prigozhin's disappearance. He's somewhere on an island right now drinking a martini, and this is his way out of the business. Normally I would say there's no reason whatsoever to contemplate that approach. But since this is Prigozhin, and we've seen like six fake passports of his with toupees and beards and whatnot. And generally, he's, you know, a peculiar character, he's fighting in Africa, and then he's in Ukraine, and he also has a catering business, and a troll farm. I think that's not a zero-chance probability, but I don't think it's a high-chance probability either.Bob: On the other hand, Russia has always been a hotbed for this kind of theorizing, right? Nikita: Yes. Yes. It's a normal thing for Russians. Whatever happens, there's always a conspiracy theory right away.Bob: So there's a pretty high false positive rate on conspiracy theories in Russia—and increasingly in America. Maybe this can bring the two nations together, that we have this in common.Nikita: I think there is some overlap. I mean, before the war, there were tribes within Russia and the US who were growing closer together, like the QAnon people. And even with the war—Bob: That kind of makes sense actually. Go ahead.Nikita: I was surprised. About a month and a half ago, RFK [Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.] got into that scandal because he said something about Covid, and the way his words were interpreted was that there is a chance that it was designed by the Chinese in a lab and it targets certain groups more than others.Bob: Right. Nikita: And he started talking about bioweapons and whatnot. I think he talked about biolabs in Ukraine. Bob: Yeah. That's a thing. That's a talking point.Nikita: Until then, I was not aware that anybody in the West thinks that. But it was a big part of the Russian propaganda, some versions of which are very strange. On the one hand, according to Russian state propaganda, the Russians and Ukrainians are really the same people, but also, there are biolabs in Ukraine that were designing viruses that would target specifically Russians.Bob: It's a very discerning virus! It picks up on the most subtle differences in DNA. . . .Bob: But, on Prigozhin, tell me… presumably the [staged disappearance] theory is that he actually feared something like this happening for real, right? I mean, he didn't feel safe in this world. Nikita: Either that, or another version of the same theory would be that he made a deal with Putin, that this is how I'm gonna go out. Bob: Oh, and then you [Putin] will look like you were the tough guy and did crack down. Nikita: That's right. And I'll [Prigozhin] get my pension and I'm fine. Bob: I've got a feeling he doesn't need a pension. I forget how much cash was found in his apartment, but I suspect that he's got stashes in various places. Nikita: [laughter] That's right. Bob: So anyway, your sense is, not that you're in Russia, but your sense is that this will be a minority interpretation anyway, that he's not actually dead?Nikita: From what I've heard so far, most people say there's also this possibility, but it's probably a low possibility. So, I haven't met a true believer in this theory so far. I mean, it's been a day—it's been less than a day. But it's brought up and discussed as a low probability option. And we will never know, I suppose, because the bodies are burned. We're not going to see a picture of Prigozhin that we can recognize. And the people who will tell us (and they might have already; I saw some reports that sounded more official than what I saw last evening, saying yes, this is Prigozhin and Utkin and the other passengers who were supposed to be on the plane) the people who are going to tell us this are the authorities, which if they are the ones who decided to do this staged disappearance, you know, you're not supposed to trust them.Bob: Right. Nikita: But I don't think it matters, frankly. I think that's the low probability version, and I don't think it matters, because both options lead to Prigozhin not being here anymore. If he lives a private life on an island somewhere—Bob: He seems out of the picture. And everyone else will act on the assumption that Putin did it.Nikita: That's right. Bob: Is your sense that among those Russians who do believe Prigozhin's dead, overwhelmingly the assumption is Putin decided to take him out? Nikita: Yes. Yes. Bob: I can't even come up with another theory. Has it been confirmed that there was an anti-aircraft missile fired at the plane, or is that still—Nikita: No, I think they are saying now that there was an explosive in the chassis, the wheel of the plane. And they say they have a suspect, Prigozhin's private pilot, who was supposed to be on the flight maybe, or at least was able to access the plane. And he's MIA somewhere. Some friend of his said that he's trekking in Siberia, or something along those lines. So, they have a suspect and a theory. It doesn't go further than that guy so far, like, why would his pilot do this? But I think that might become the official narrative. This is what I'm seeing this morning.Bob: So is it confirmed that the pilot was not on the plane, the regular pilot? Nikita: I think. He was called Prigozhin's private pilot. I'm not sure he was supposed to be on this plane. He just flew with Prigozhin before, so they are singling him out as a suspect. Bob: I see. Do you think Putin would go to the trouble to frame somebody, and do the whole court proceeding, and put them in prison? I mean, it's weird, because presumably Putin wants a certain crowd to know he did it, including possibly much of the world, right? He wants some people to think, yeah, Putin cracked down, let's don't plot any mutinies anytime soon. I mean, that's the thing about this. It's so blatant, right? With most of the past assassinations attributed to Putin, there wasn't rock solid evidence. And in fact, I would run into smart people who paid attention, and I'd say, what do you think the chances are that this guy was taken out by Putin? They'd say, well, probably, or 90 per cent or 95 per cent. I don't think you're going to hear many people as low as 95 per cent on this one. It seems like this time, it's a more unabashed assassination.Nikita: I think that's true. But also, nobody tried to, you know, take his private army and march on Moscow before. Bob: Right, right. Absolutely. You know, right after this happened, right after the mutiny, and after the deal was negotiated, American Russia hawks like Michael McFaul said, see, all this stuff about how Putin if you corner him is dangerous, is wrong. We don't need to worry about pushing them out of Crimea and back into Russia and even, what is happening now, attacks on Russian territory. McFaul said, this just shows he'll fold; it's a bluff. What McFaul said is that he capitulated. And first of all, I pointed out, he did not capitulate. He didn't meet Prigozhin's demands. That's capitulation, if you do fire Shoigu and Gerasimov, the two military chiefs he wanted fired. And I'd be interested in your take on this. Leave aside the fact that apparently, ultimately, Prigozhin paid the ultimate price. I thought, given the situation Putin was in, he didn't handle it that badly. I mean, you've got 5,000 troops marching to Moscow. Things could get seriously out of hand, even if you're confident you can put it down. These people are considered war heroes by a lot of Russians, right? They're the guys who did Bakhmut. They have a base. And after Wagner had shot down the planes, to get out of it with no further bloodshed… Leaving aside the fact that ultimately Putin had it both ways, he finessed it without a big confrontation and got Prigozhin killed, what did you think after the event?Nikita: Well, first of all, during the event itself, and the few days after, the prevalent feeling among all the Russians I know, whether inside or outside Russia, was just how bizarre this whole thing is. Especially as the events were unfolding, like, he started to march, you start to get these audio messages, you get updates in Telegram from Prigozhin himself.For a while, it wasn't clear whether this is actually happening or not. He's saying that they're marching on Rostov and it's like, is he? I haven't seen any pictures. It's just Prigozhin saying that, and he's known for playing games. And then suddenly there are tanks in Rostov.And then he's saying he's marching on Moscow. My brother was in Moscow at the time, and he went into the streets, and he said it was a weird, weird feeling, having been there for a long time, that the cops and the people are on the same side, because the cops in Moscow and people in Moscow were expecting this army to show up. And the cops seemed nervous and unsure what to do.. . .Nikita: So the prevalent feeling from this whole experience was just: This is bizarre and weird. When the analysis started to come in three days, four days after the thing, I had the feeling that maybe this is us trying to pretend that we understand what is going on. Because these past couple of days, nobody knew what was happening. Every theory was thrown out there, whether it's staged, whether it's real. You've heard these, you know, Prigozhin agreed with Putin that he's going to do this thing to find the people who are actually not loyal enough. There was all of this, and nobody had a good theory because the straightforward one seemed also too weird.Bob: Yeah.Nikita: But now in the aftermath, I agree with you that Putin did not lose control. And now, the Russian word they use is signal. This is a strong signal that he's sending that if you try to do this, you're going to blow up.But I think a lot of people did feel as this was happening, surely, that this is not the behavior of a strong leader, because he was nowhere to be found. The day of, Peskov, his spokesperson, said that Putin knows about the situation. But that was all. And then in the morning, he [Putin] made this speech. And during the day, as this was happening, there weren't a lot of people who really jumped in front of the situation and said, I support the president of my country and this is mutiny. They started saying that as the situation progressed and it became more clear that this is what you're supposed to be doing.. . .(Overtime segment available to paid subscribers below the paywall.)0:42 Nikita's life as an expatriate 5:18 Theories among Russians about Prigozhin's death 17:29 Putin's handling of the Wagner mutiny, reassessed 25:46 Did Prigozhin lose his mind? 35:36 How worried should Putin be about Prigozhin's supporters? 43:15 Russians' evolving views of the invasion 50:50 Is Putin feeling heat from the nationalist right? Robert Wright (Bloggingheads.tv, The Evolution of God, Nonzero, Why Buddhism Is True) and Nikita Petrov (https://psychopolitica.substack.com/). Recorded August 24, 2023.Comments on BhTV: http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/66636 Twitter: https://twitter.com/NonzeroPods
Paul and new co-host Bob Kruz are back with a new episode tackling some of the biggest topics in the business right now from PPP Loan misuse to double brokers.This episode covers some top questions from followers on what makes a good brokerage, what new owner-operators need to know about insurance, and how to navigate the complexities of both the broker and carrier worlds.Here's a brief rundown of the biggest topics in the conversation.Who's got it worse: Owner-Operators or Brokers?Bob: At the peak, [an owner-operator] was making like ten grand a week…like eight grand clean. Yet, now things are definitely in a slump. Right now, owner-operators are making as much as a company driver. It's better to be a company driver, you're going to make almost the same amount, and you're not worried about nothing. Smaller companies are taking the biggest hit right now, to be honest.Paul: Dude, being a broker is nice and easy. All you have to do is just have a laptop and a customer. The nice thing is you don't have the overhead that you do with a truck, right? It's all like digital. And obviously, you have to have sales skills, but you don't have to have a truck, and a driver, you know?Bob: Still, man, you gotta go get this load, find this customer or shipper. Then you have to find a carrier–a good carrier because you can get screwed with a bad carrier. We were talking about how [brokers] have these telegram chats with their dedicated carriers on there. So they don't have to worry about them screwing you over, so you would rather post the load on telegram first and then post it on DAT. So I realized why all the brokers have their own load boards now.Are Double Brokers Friend or Foe?Bob: I get all these comments from people saying, “Double brokers aren't that bad. We actually do most of the work.” I understand that, right? Because they're just taking it from these bigger brokerages, making fifty-one hundred bucks on it, then they're just double brokering it to somebody else. I don't want to say double brokering is okay…but I feel like it's better if they pay the carrier and everything is okay.What makes a good brokerage?Bob: It really depends if you have a good rep in the brokerage. Once you have a good rep in the brokerage, everything changes. That's what happened with us and Arrive. We had a really bad rep at first, and I posted something to Instagram… Shout out to Dave. He kept hitting me up, so we started working with him, and he's been great so far. So, yeah, I think it really depends if you have a good rep in that brokerage, then you'll be good. If you don't have anybody, then you'll think the whole brokerage sucks.Paul: Especially with the big companies, it's really dependent on who you're dealing with. Honestly, it's the same thing with TQL.Bob: [Favorite brokerages to work with] are C.H., Arrive. Coyote used to be really good, and XPO used to be really good. Flock Freight used to be really good before they implemented this new [inspections] thing.Be sure to tune in to the FreightCaviar Podcast to hear the full conversation on Spotify or Youtube.
Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: The ones that walk away, published by Karthik Tadepalli on January 19, 2023 on The Effective Altruism Forum. Alice: I've grown disillusioned with the EA community. I still want to dedicate my life to doing as much good as I can, but I am no longer certain that EA is the best way to do that. Bob: I see where you're coming from, but where specifically is that disillusionment leading you? Alice: I am still confident that major EA causes are important areas to work on. I think EA organizations do good work in those areas, so I would be quite happy to work at some of them. On the other hand, I'm much less willing to defer to EA institutions than before, and I'm unlikely to attend EA events or personally associate with EAs. So I imagine mostly disengaging from EA, albeit with some professional interest in EA organizations. Bob: You're disentangling different aspects of EA as a community. We are linked first and foremost by our moral commitments, to having a larger moral circle and trying to do the most good for that moral circle. You still hold those commitments. On top of that, we're also linked by the intellectual commitment to think rigorously and impartially about ways to do the most good. It sounds like you still believe in that, and the change is that you want to do more of that thinking for yourself and less of it through the EA collective consciousness. Is that right? Alice: Pretty much. Bob: But if you still hold the moral and intellectual commitments that define effective altruism, why do you want to disengage from EA? Alice: For me, the social dimension creates a dangerous tribalism. I get upset when people criticize EA on Twitter and in my life, and I feel the need to defend it. My in-group bias is being activated to defend people and arguments that I would not otherwise defend. Bob: Isn't being cognizant of tribalism enough to help you avoid it? Alice: That's unlikely, at least for me. I'm not a brain in a vat; my emotions are important to me. They don't dictate every action I take, but they have some sway. Furthermore, everyone thinks they are above tribalism, so we should be skeptical about our ability to succeed where everyone else fails. Bob: Point taken, but this argument proves too much. This is not just an argument against identifying with EA - it's an argument against identifying with any collective, since every collective makes you feel some tribalism. Alice: And that's exactly what I'm defending. I think it makes sense to work with collectives to accomplish shared goals - as I said, I would still work at EA organizations - but I am much less excited about identifying with them. That shared identity is not necessary for us to do good work together, and it creates a lot of scope for abuse. Bob: That feels uncomfortably transactional. Can you really work with someone towards a shared goal that is meaningful to you without feeling some bond with them? Don't you feel kinship with people who care about animal suffering, for example? Alice: Well... I see what you mean, so I'll step back from the strong claim. But the EA community is far more tightly knit than that basic moral kinship. We have group houses, co-working spaces, student groups, conferences with afterparties, a CEA community health team, the Forum, Dank EA Memes, EA Twitter... this is not your average community, and the typical EA could probably step back quite a lot while retaining that kinship and the sense of working together to make the world better. Bob: It's true that this is a highly-engaged community, but most of those aren't just for fun; they have some role in our ability to do good. To pick on two examples you listed, I've met people at conferences who I learnt a lot from, and the Forum is one of the best websites on the internet if you filter it aggressively. I wouldn't take this rea...
Middle Market Mergers and Acquisitions by Colonnade Advisors
In this episode, we discuss strategic steps for Equipment Leasing and Finance companies as they grow and evolve. The leadership of some of these businesses may decide to remain a certain size and complexity and be “ lifestyle businesses”, providing healthy cash flow to the owner(s) while they continue to run the business. However, other options exist, and exiting the business for a favorable multiple to a bank or other buyer can be an excellent strategy, the dream plan for many entrepreneurs. In this interview, we interview Bob Rinaldi and discuss the potential to grow and leverage a business to realize a win-win exit strategy. This episode is a great follow-up to our previous show, Start Early & Exit Right, as we dive deep into many of the concepts of M&A rationale. What's unique about this episode is that it is geared toward a specific target audience, our friends in the Equipment Leasing and Finance (ELF) industry. In this episode we cover: How partners such as Rinaldi Advisory Services (RAS) and Colonnade work with Equipment Leasing & Finance (ELF) companies to prepare for a successful sale (1:00) What are the biggest challenges for the independents as they look to be “bank ready” for an acquisition? (4:00) What are some of the biggest challenges for banks pursuing an acquisition of an equipment leasing company? (9:30) What determines the level of a premium in the sale price that an ELF company can expect? (20:00) What has M&A activity looked like in recent years and what are the prospects? (23:00) What about Private Equity buyers in this space? (26:30) How partners such as Rinaldi Advisory Services (RAS) and Colonnade work with Equipment Leasing & Finance (ELF) companies to prepare for a successful sale (1:00) Bob: My practice has evolved around three target audiences in the equipment leasing space. About 60% of my clients are independent leasing (ELF) companies that I work with through the Confidential CEO Resource℠ model. This is multi-year exit strategy planning. Whether the company exits or not is not important. The idea is to get them from point A to point B so they're prepared if that time comes. The second part of my practice is working with banks, predominantly community banks who are looking to get into the ELF space. Third, I work with a handful of service providers in the industry, as well. Rinaldi Advisory Services (RAS) offers the Confidential CEO Resource℠ (CCR) as a robust, full-scope advisory service that provides clients with a broad base of support for long-term strategic management. RAS works with CEOs and Principals to provide meaningful analysis and actionable insights. The aim is to help ELF senior management arrive at strategic and tactical decisions geared toward managing growth as well as operational and financial efficiencies. Colonnade has deep experience in the ELF industry. Colonnade is a leading investment banking firm that has completed over $9 billion in M&A transactions for clients in the business and financial services industries. Colonnade has advised many companies in the EFL sector on strategic transactions. Please see our Quarterly Updates on the ELF industry here. What are the biggest challenges for the independents as they look to be “bank ready” for an acquisition? (4:00) Bob: The biggest challenge is predominantly that these founders/owners are very much entrepreneurs. They started the business. They're very much involved in the everyday transactional nature of their business. They don't have the time to gain the perspective to look at their company objectively and determine what needs to happen to be a better company from a non-transactional standpoint or to be a better company for the purpose of acquisition. Jeff: Let's drill down a little bit on some of the biggest challenges for the independents. There's size and scale, where are you today and where are you going? Banks are the natural resting home for specialty finance companies, and ELF companies are such a great asset class for banks in particular. Obviously, they're a number of large independents, but from the bank's perspective, what are the other things you see where companies need to focus? Is it finance and accounting? Is it operations? Is it servicing? Bob: Yes. Yes. And yes. It's really all those things. But even before you get to that, let's look at the business and find components within the business that definitely will never, ever fit in a bank. I'm able to identify those things. You then have to decide what to do with those things. Do I jettison those things completely? Do I sell those off? Do I break it outside of the company and put it in a separate entity so that what is left is sellable and simple to understand? Compare that to a buyer looking at the company and thinking, “I like this, I like this. I hate that. Therefore, I'm not doing it [the acquisition].” For example, say that there is a heavy services component of the (ELF) business; services component being something that has morphed, be it operational leases or servicing equipment that is leased. A bank can't be in that business. If that is an absolute key critical component to your leasing business, then a bank buyer is probably never going to be the buyer, which is going to leave you looking at non-financial institutional-type buyers, and they're fairly limited, so that's a problem. That is when you look at it and go: “If that's what we're always going to do, then this maybe is just going to be a lifestyle business. Let's just find ways to improve the income generation, the profitability, and keep it as a lifestyle business.” What are some of the biggest challenges for banks pursuing an acquisition of an equipment leasing company? (9:30) 1) The banks must use experienced advisors who understand the appropriate valuation models. Bob: If the bank has not been in the business before and their only experience with acquisitions has predominantly been buying other smaller banks, the first challenge is the valuation models. Banks are used to paying a multiple of book value. Leasing companies are not valued that way; their valuation is based on a multiple of earnings or pretax adjusted net income. In a typical leasing company, most of the leases are on a fixed term, fully amortizing type of a structure; therefore they just generate income. But the assets don't stay on the balance sheet that long, they continually roll-off at a rapid rate, so you've got to keep putting on more. It's really not an asset play as much as it is a net income play. Jeff: When we talk to banks as acquirers of these businesses, from either the buy-side or the sell-side, you're absolutely right. It's all about the income-generating opportunity. Yes, there are assets associated with it, but much more importantly, it's “What's the potential earning stream for this business within the bank?” (See: Discover the Rationale for a Synergistic Business Merger). Bob: That really comes down to the financial institution's advisor, a buy-side advisor. If they've not had much experience in the equipment leasing space, especially current experience like Colonnade has, they're already at a very big disadvantage because now you've got two entities that are blind and stating the same thing and focused on book value, so they're getting bad advice along with their own preconceived ideas. That's like a double whammy right out the gate. It's common when you find that a bank or their board, for whatever reason, have just got very comfortable with a buy-side advisor, who has never had that much experience at it but they've just gotten very comfortable with them and they wouldn't even conceive of going outside. A lot of this gets really back down to, “Is the bank nimble? Is the bank flexible? Does the bank have a CEO that has cut a bigger vision?” The same thing with the board, the death of any kind of an institution is just getting so stuck in your way that you just can't get out of it. 2) The CEO of the bank must have a visionary leadership style that allows the acquired company to thrive. Bob: It all still goes back to the CEO of the bank and how progressive they are, how aggressive they are. And aggressive does not mean they're careless. Jeff: The folks that we generally work with on the banking side have made that decision. They said, “Okay, we're going to get into specialty finance. We want to do it in X, Y or Z asset class, and we have the headset to bid accordingly, and that these businesses are valued differently than bank deals. The multiples are different, the metrics are different. We're committed, we've got board approval, we've got senior leadership approval and we're going to go ahead with it.” Bob: You and I know one of the smartest, most aggressive community bankers: Chuck Sulerzyski of Peoples Bank of Marietta, Ohio. Peoples Bank is located in the Southeast corner of Ohio, squarely in Appalachia country. How does a bank that size, originally ~$1 billion in assets when he took it over and roughly $7 billion today, make such successful leasing company acquisitions? One located in Vermont and one located in Minnesota? If you take a look at the numbers, the ROA and ROE of the bank have improved dramatically. Their yields and spreads have increased dramatically. Their asset growth has increased significantly in the commercial real estate (CRE) and in the commercial and industrial (C&I) sectors. His shareholders are being rewarded handsomely and will continue to be. Jeff: Chuck sets a great example. He has been aggressive in good ways. Peoples Bank also acquired an insurance premium finance company, and they're diversifying. Chuck has the right headset in that he looks to acquire businesses to expand and diversify their geographical footprint. That's a real success story, in my view. Bob: If you're going to acquire a leasing company that's growing, that's used to growing assets, the last thing you want to do is turn them into a bank. That's the whole premise for why you're going to buy a leasing company – is to expand the scope of the bank, not to contract it. It requires an introspective look of the CEO and his team: can they make an acquisition and not micromanage it and end up turning it into a bank? 3) Banks must be able to create objectives around diversification of geography and asset classes. Bob: Equipment leasing is not a geographic-specific industry unlike, let's call it, commercial real estate. Banks are very familiar with commercial real estate. Real estate is always local. Commercial real estate is local, you've got to know the geography that you're in very well so that you understand the commercial real estate in that market. Banks must understand what they're trying to achieve in three to five years in terms of what percentage of their (Commercial and Insurance) C&I assets they want in various sectors. How much do they want to get to in ELF? What do they want it to look like in three years, four years? Depending upon how big that number is, that determines the modality of the type of equipment leasing business you could get into. There are multiple facets to the equipment leasing industry: 1) small ticket, (transactions less than $250,000), middle-market/mid ticket (up to $5 million per transaction size), and large ticket (above $5 million per transaction). Jeff. Take Wintrust. They're not really “a bank”. More than 40% of their loan portfolio is insurance premium finance. They've got a big equipment finance business on top of that. There's probably 50% to 60% of loans that are non-traditional banking assets. As a result, the ROA on that bank is considerably higher than its peers; and as a result, the stock trades higher. And Peoples, as we've discussed, has the right headset that they need to acquire or look to acquire national platforms outside of Marietta, Ohio. Obviously, they've done some bank acquisitions too in footprint, but expanding to get national business is part of the CEO's strategy. What determines the level of a premium in the sale price that an ELF company can expect? (20:00) Bob: It falls under the quality of earnings, platform, and quality of human resources. Quality of earnings: I think about the repeatability of the earnings, as opposed to having a trend line of earnings that is a sawtooth (up and down, up and down). Quality of earnings should be fluid and show continued ramped-up growth over a period of time. Platform: The ability to scale. What's their technological capability? What's the platform built off of, is it homegrown? Is it well protected? Is it SOC compliant? If you had more capital, can you scale it? Quality of human resources: What does the management team look like? What's the average age of the team? What are their qualifications? What does the core management team look like behind them? If you cover all three of those pretty darn well, you're going to get the higher end of the premium scale for sure. What has M&A activity looked like in recent years and what are the prospects? (23:00) Bob: Activity's been strong for the past few years. Part of the activity was exacerbated when everybody thought that in 2021 there was going to be a new tax act and capital gains were going to go up. The biggest reason over the past four to five years is because you've got an aging-out (in the midst of the Great Resignation) of the Principals of these companies. It's just a normal progression, and it happens every five years or so. You get a number of individuals who have had their own leasing companies who started them 20 odd years ago. If they started 20 years ago, here we are 20 years later, they're in their mid-60s to late 60s. If they don't get out now, when are they going to exit? Because typically there's going to be an earn out. If you wait till the age of 70 to get out, you may be working on an earn out between the ages of 70 and 73. On top of that, there's the aspect of an ELF company having a capital constraint. At some point, their capital is not going to hold them to keep borrowing on their line of credit because the debt-equity ratios will get too high and they'll have a hard time borrowing. It's really at about that time when they have to start thinking about what's next. Do we bring in another equity partner? Do we bring in some sub-debt? All that does is kick the can down the road. And I always tell them at that point: “You're already selling part of the company. Just sell the whole thing.” Listen to this podcast episode/read through the shownotes to see the Four Reasons Company Owners Consider a Transaction (15:25) What about Private Equity buyers in this space? (26:30) Jeff: We regularly get calls from folks looking to find platforms to acquire and build upon. There are some opportunities there: To remain independent, nimble, and flexible outside of the bank model, and take in additional capital to grow and potentially enhance the financing capabilities through securitizations and others. Bob: The equipment leasing industry is a fairly mature industry. It's fairly sophisticated. For an independent leasing company to bring in private equity, I see that as only a solution if you don't believe you're able to sell the whole company right now. The PE firm is investing to get double-digit returns, so that means they're going to come in and put you (as the owner/operator) on a huge ramped-up treadmill. You are going to have to keep up or they're going to lose interest. And you've sold part of the company. Now, granted, you've got a smaller piece but now have a bigger pie. Jeff: That makes sense. There are some examples of successful private-equity-backed equipment finance companies, but as we have found – the universe of financially oriented sponsors that really want to put a lot of capital into the business and are willing to wait a long time to get their return – is quite limited. Most folks attack it from the financing standpoint. It can be a good option if you have an aging founder that wants an opportunity to take some chips off the table and let the next generation continue to run it. But you're right, it is a different exercise being put on that treadmill. Bob: It's a much different exercise. On the other hand, where it does work really well, is when a PE firm is backing a very experienced individual or a team who is going to start up a new entity. They could start this new entity and scale quickly with the help of private equity. They'd have a chance to really leverage that with some serious growth. Then it makes complete sense.
SUMMARY: In this week's episode, Wade visits comedian Bob Marley on his home turf in Maine to talk about old tricks and new ones too. The veteran entertainer, who has 30 years in standup and a Guinness World Record for longest continuous set, shares with Wade how moving from Los Angeles back to his home state was in large part spurred by water (and snow) skiing – and how those sports have been central to his family's life. Together with his kids and some of their friends, Bob peppers Wade with questions about everything from what makes water skiing so compelling to the finer points of line length and the importance of taking advice – but only from sources that know their stuff! Join Wade and Bob as they sit lakeside at the Dinner Shack in Poland, Maine, musing about their favorite sport, raising kids and keeping the comedy going in life. And of course Wade does a round of “Five Question” with the gang following on a three-day waterskiing clinic at Tripp Lake. TOPICS COVERED:· A little about Bob's resume, his life in comedy, and decided to move back to his native Maine.· The early roots of what would eventually become Bob's (and his kids') obsession with waterskiing. · Touching on some of Bob's favorite camp experiences in California, Nevada, and Florida.· A round of “Five Questions” for Wade, touching on how to develop technique, adapt to various race conditions, and ways Wade has gotten and stayed inspired.· Brief wrap-up and a word about what's available at the Ski With Wade website. QUOTES:“One of the reasons we came back was to snow ski – 60 or 70 days a year – and water ski as much as we can – from April all the way through to November.” (Bob) “Let's get our balance and technique really good, and then I'll speed ‘em up and shorten ‘em up.” (Wade) “Ultimately we're trying to create space – same as in any other sport. We need a little space from our defender, whoever is trying to whack us or tackle us.” (Wade) “If you see the space out on the water and you've got it, then you've got the visual gratification: ‘Hey, this looks good.' ” (Wade) “All this failure rate does is guarantee the fact that you're going to fail. We need success.” (Wade) “Ultimately it's the balance point, meaning rooster tail, and if you are either scared of you're getting bounced of your direction, man, we've got no hope.” (Wade) “If you're going to go to a ski school and get instruction, the biggest thing I've learned is, ‘Why would you not listen to the guy who is a champion?' ” (Bob) “It can go either way with your nerves but if you handle it the right way you can get the energy that you know you don't have in practice. Those butterflies give you superpowers.” (Wade) “A lot of people like to hear themselves talk or give advice. A lot of it isn't very good. You've got to learn to sort through that.” (Wade) “Maybe I'm still always searching for that perfect lake – what's going to be my next lake if you will.” (Wade)
Mickey's plan to install Nancy Pelosi in the Oval Office ... Who can convince Biden not to run for reelection? ... Mickey's comeback strategy for Biden ... Bob takes the Parrot Room into untested waters ... Is Boris Johnson in trouble over Covid protocols or policy failures? ... Are seditious conspiracy charges warranted for the Oath Keepers? What about Trump? ... Mickey: The Supreme Court got the vaccine mandate ruling wrong ... Bob: It will be bad if Russia invades Ukraine, but it won't threaten U.S. interests ... Bob: China doesn't have a monopoly on repressive software exports ... Parrot Room preview: Bob takes a Covid test, Mickey catches Bob in an almost-devastating contradiction, Bob tries to catch Robert Malone in a contradiction, Sidney Poitier, Bob Saget, Terry Teachout, Bob v. Andrew Sullivan, Don't Look Up, Ruth Barrett sues the Atlantic, Bari Weiss on Hollywood, David Remnick claims we're suspended between democracy and authoritarianism, Mickey has second thoughts about donating to the Salvation Army, Matt Ridley on the origin of Covid, a Jeffrey Epstein update, Maya Angelou gets a quarter, and what's up with Leon Wieseltier's journal? ...
Mickey's plan to install Nancy Pelosi in the Oval Office ... Who can convince Biden not to run for reelection? ... Mickey's comeback strategy for Biden ... Bob takes the Parrot Room into untested waters ... Is Boris Johnson in trouble over Covid protocols or policy failures? ... Are seditious conspiracy charges warranted for the Oath Keepers? What about Trump? ... Mickey: The Supreme Court got the vaccine mandate ruling wrong ... Bob: It will be bad if Russia invades Ukraine, but it won't threaten U.S. interests ... Bob: China doesn't have a monopoly on repressive software exports ... Parrot Room preview: Bob takes a Covid test, Mickey catches Bob in an almost-devastating contradiction, Bob tries to catch Robert Malone in a contradiction, Sidney Poitier, Bob Saget, Terry Teachout, Bob v. Andrew Sullivan, Don't Look Up, Ruth Barrett sues the Atlantic, Bari Weiss on Hollywood, David Remnick claims we're suspended between democracy and authoritarianism, Mickey has second thoughts about donating to the Salvation Army, Matt Ridley on the origin of Covid, a Jeffrey Epstein update, Maya Angelou gets a quarter, and what's up with Leon Wieseltier's journal? ...
Max: Hello and welcome back to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast. I'm your host, Max Armbruster, and today on the show I've got a world traveler, a man who I first interacted with in Malaysia a few years ago and who has since moved industries and has worked in entertainment, in games today, and a few other, and oiling gas before, and is today the Director of People and Legal for Big Viking Games. Welcome to the show, Bob. Mr. Bob St-Jacques, I hope I'm pronouncing it right. Welcome to the show, Bob.Bob: All right, well thank you, Max, happy to be here.Max: Pleasure to have you. And of course, we interacted with Bob when he was leading the people function at a company called 7Geese which got acquired by Paycor which is a leader in OKR methodologies. So, for the HR performance enthusiasts that are listening, they'll be familiar with OKR methodology and it's a great foundation for start-ups. So, anyway, that's a little bit about your background but perhaps, Bob, I'd like to ask you to walk us back to the early days of how you ended up working in talent acquisition and dealing with people. Was it by design or by accident?Bob: It was by design because I had a very good mentor and it was, going back a few years, 1992 and I was going to get a master's in industrial relations with Cornell and my mentor suggested, he said, what do you want to do? I said, I wanna do HR. He said, no no no that's not gonna work. He said what you need to do is pick a problem. Pick something that you wanna pour your heart and soul into and I said, well HR is basically broken, right? 91, 92, there was a recession going on in North America. I was working in Parliament at the time, so we were holding hearings, and nobody was happy. Employees, employers, communities would lay off. Nobody was happy. So, I said, hey look this is one of those problems that, like climate change, it's big and I can't fix all of it, but maybe I can fix something. So, he said, look if you wanna do that, go to law school and practice employment law then go into HR because you will spend the first five years learning from other people's mistakes. So that's exactly what I did. I went to law school, practiced employment law for five years and then got hired by my client. And basically, what I've done since 2000 is work on transformation efforts. So, in the beginning, they were turned around. So, I worked for a client who's called the Lens Crafters and they were in pretty rough shape, but if anybody wonders why I'm an optimist two and a half years later they're number 58 on the Fortune 100 best companies to work for list. Then I worked at Delta Airlines after 9/11, so I turned them around, right. So, this is why my optimism comes in. Moved to Dubai, things got a little bit more difficult because I had to help transform companies that were in scale-up and that were already growing about a hundred percent every year and how do you tell those folks, you're leaving money on the table you need to do more. So that was a further challenge and so I helped a lot of high growth organizations in Dubai, all over the Middle East, South Asia and Africa as well, worked in oil and gas in Nigeria for example. And then I went to the Far East and started focusing on tech, tech high-growth companies, tech scale-ups in that area and I've done the same thing here in Vancouver. So, the central theme is I've kept to my mission which is I want to help HR. And that's what I've done throughout my whole career. Sometimes, as you mentioned, being an OKR expert, spreading the love and the gospel of it, of OKRs, and sometimes there's goals more specific toward the company.Max: I think it's good advice for the young people to walk towards the problem, not away from the problem. You see an industry that's broken and a company that has issues and, you know, don't run away from it. That's an opportunity to make an impact and to work on a whole career duration on fixing something. I can empathize with that on my end. I saw a lot of broken things that I'm still trying to fix on high volume recruitment. So, maybe a word about Big Viking Games, your current company, which I understand has gone through some transformation over the last few months since you've been there for six months now. And we're gonna talk about how the talent acquisition strategy has been transformed to expand the talent pool. But can you set the scene for us, what does this company do?Bob: Yeah, so, Big Viking Games was started at, well I could tell you, it was 10 years ago in about a month. We just celebrated our 10th anniversary which is a pretty big deal. Only 4% of companies make it to 10 years so we had a fun event for everybody, and we managed to bring a bunch of people together. Now the challenge was six months ago is that the company had been making games but had been kinda flat-lined and just kinda been bumbling along for the past three four years. And so, they were looking to revive and expand. And the interesting piece is that in the gaming industry it's usually boom and bust all the time, right. Hire a bunch of people to make a new game, I'll make some money, oh you sold it off and then you drop the right number of employees and the revenue goes like this, it's big yoyo. So, what they decided was that's not sustainable and that's not great for employees. Employees in the gaming industry will tell you, yeah, I've been laid off and hired, right. You look at gaming LinkedIn profiles and they've all had 14 jobs in 10 years and it's not because they're job-hoppers, it's been most of the time because they've been laid off. So, the company decided to move towards a live operations model. What does that mean? It means they don't create their own games, they either expand things that they have, and they typically buy intellectual property and then expand it and run it. So that's a big switch from making games boom-and-bust to just kind of like very linear growth. And so, it's a challenge because you need different types of people, different types of mindset in that area.Max: Basically, in the oil and gas, it's like moving from being a builder to an operator.Bob: Correct. And so, there was the challenge. We need different types of individuals, different types of talents. and we needed to grow, and we were looking at acquisitions and so on. So fast forward, six months, what we have found ourselves is before we were in one vertical where we had a Facebook/Web games there which you know was alot so we had really high MPS scores. 70% of our players play our game 27 out of 28 days which is pretty impressive for games right. So, we got this loyal fan base. But now, we've attached, we've done an acquisition, we've expanded on a couple areas and so as folks will see throughout December, we will be putting out press releases in these areas. So, where we were in one verticals, we will not be in four verticals starting in January as we close these deals. So that's created some challenges and opportunity areas as well because we got new places we're expanding into and we're also expanding our current offerings. So, another piece of good news and we just got it less than 24 hours ago, again talk about the power transformation. When I joined, the Glassdoor score for the company was 2.2, when I said things are bumbling along, it was a bit in rough shape. Yesterday we were just notified by the Great Place To Work Institute that we are certified by them as a great place to work. So, when people talk about transformation is too hard, and I love the phrase that you used, running towards the problem. So, if you look at things as an opportunity in terms of aligning people behind the business strategy, OKRs and things like that, once you get alignment and you clarified the strategy for everybody, employees tend to follow along, right, to support you in that area, and that's what we found.Max: Congrats on the Great Place To Work and the transformation, I mean it's not a turn-around, but it's kind of a pivot for Big Viking Games and of course it does sound like a nicer environment for people who want a bit of stability after they changed 14 different jobs in 10 years. That could work your nerves out a little bit. Let's turn to the topic of talent acquisition and you changed the process there as well which you were telling me before we started recording. The testing has started to effect, the use of automated assessments, has changed the composition of your talent people and allowed you to expand to new talent pools. Bob: Correct. So, what we did was, again, because of the challenges that we face in terms of going into new areas we needed new and different talent, is that we decided to turn the whole selection testing paradigm on its head. Usually, people use these tools as deselection tools. So how do we get folks to get them out of the process. We test them and then that's it, they're out and so on. We turned that around. What we wanted to do was opt people in. Let me give you an example. Here's like, we were down to the basics. If we look at a situation where we're looking for a developer, an artist, and so on. Nowhere in the job description does it require these individuals to be excellent at creating resumes. And not to pick on developers, they're not, they're really really bad at writing resumes, right, and showing their skills set and so on and so forth. So, what we said was, you know, we get hundreds of applications, some case thousands of applications per position, you try to read through them the best you can, right. Most people they do a good job of communicating their skills, they tend to get interviews and so on. But what we did was like we're missing people; we're missing some diamonds in the rough. So, what we did was when we saw, we went beyond, right, when somebody was working at a grocery store, but like went down the resume and saw that they had worked as a developer before, right, and for whatever reason they're working at a grocery store now. But like fine. So, what we do is we tested these people in the beginning. And the quid pro quo is we said, look we'll test your own skills, resilience, and general ability, and you know what, we will give you the test, we will give you the feedback, we will give you your scores, the test, the report, everything, just work with us on this. Now here's what happened, if we would have taken one of those CVs which is in pretty rough shape and give it to the VP of Engineering, you would have said, are you kidding me, I can't. Now what happens is if this person's score is very high, intelligence, problem solving, resilience, and skills set, we can say, look this is a CV it's not so great, but look here we have documented proof that this person should be interviewed and move on to the next level.Max: So, the first time the candidate is speaking to somebody, a recruiter or somebody from your team, they've already done the assessments, how long does that assessment typically take. Half an hour, an hour?Bob: Yeah, no more than an hour, right, cause there's four components to it and then they're about 10-15 minutes each. Max: So, then the big question for a lot of employers is, you know this is a very high demand market. I'm sure for hiring artists and developers is very hard as well. How is that not shrinking your talent pool to a very miniscule amount. Sounds great, you know, of course, you get an assessment done before an interview, but that's not how recruitment used to be done. You used to, like, hit the phone and hunt these people. So how you filling the top of the funnel.Bob: In terms of the top of the funnel, those are coming through via ads and so on. So top of the funnel is fine for us. The important piece here is that when we were talking to the folks at various testing regimes, a lot of them said, when we said, hey we wanna offer the test back to the candidate, and they're like why? And I said, well that's the quid pro quo, that's the magic there. Because people will do things if there's something in it for them. Now there are, we use, for example, I don't know if I can say it maybe you could cut it out later if I'm not allowed to, but we use Test Gorilla. Test Gorilla has a certain amount of cache and individuals who take their test are allowed to use their results and give it to other employers. Max: I tried them out. I think they're great. Test Gorilla very easy to use and they have a very wide selection. They're a Netherlands-based company, all self-service, easy to use with APIs to integrate. So, love it.Bob: So that's what we do, right. So, we give people something and that's how we keep the testing level quite high. Now here's the interesting piece because we look at data, so I'm also a fellow in the Center for Evidence-based Management so I am really big on data, right. I wear a watch, I keep track, I can tell you what my macros were last Tuesday at 3pm. I am a fanatic about measuring everything. So, what we did was we said, okay what happened to people who went through the process. So applied or head-hunted, interview, tech test, our very difficult tech test versus applied, Test Gorilla, interview, tech test. What we found was that the uptake on our tech test during our traditional process was 50% five zero. When they took the quick test, got something for it, did the interview and had to do a very in-depth tech test, we're looking at about 85-90%. So, we nearly doubled the people. So even though we've added an extra level, again it's the counter-intuitive piece and this is why you need to look at data. Because if you were to ask me, I would have said, yeah, I don't think this will work. But it's important to measure what you do and put your scientist hat on and say, this is an experiment, it can blow up in my face or it can produce the most wonderful thing every. What we found is because we start by giving something, yes, they're investing their time but they're getting something back for it. People feel like, okay, you know, they continue with the processMax: How do you communicate to them that they're getting something? How do you let them know that they're gonna get something back?Bob: So, when we let them know that they've been selected for the initial test, we tell them, hey look, here's the advantages, you get to keep your test, here's the feedback, here's sample reports, and with some of the skills in tech testing, they're transferable and other employers accept. Max: Yeah, they can get like an act of accreditation that they can put on their profile or something. Bob: Correct, yeah, and it'll be verified by Test Gorilla.Max: Cool. Well, I certainly think you're not alone in making this happen right now. There's a change in candidate behaviors worldwide where they're getting used to it basically. There was an intuition from the TA community that this is too much, but that intuition is being tested and minds are changing on this topic, including mine. I can't believe the completion rates that I hear about for test that take 45 minutes to an hour and I'm shocked myself. Because I always assume that with the shrinking attention span of the young generations that we know about that this is something that they would not do. But well, that's why you gotta test your assumption.Bob: Yeah, and part, this came from one of my recruiters who tends to skew towards the younger generation, and he said, look people are taking these Buzzfeed and other quizzes all the time. There are millions of people, right. And they get a report back. You're a part of this house in Harry Potter and you're this type of potato, and you're this type of vegetable. You know, these people take those quizzes all the time. He said, look it's a higher level and it's something that's verified from a real company, like Test Gorilla. They got something that can help the in their job search and/or career and/or professional life. One other thing that I wish I could say, oh yeah yeah you know we totally planned this, again, because I look at the numbers and what we found by focusing on skills rather than ability to write a resume or CV is that for the past six months, 43% of our new hires are women and 52% are what we call here in Canada BIPOCs, so black, indigenous or people of color. So, again compared that to the rest of the gaming and tech industry, especially here in North America, we're doing quite well, we're on the right track. And I wish I could have said, oh we planned this, you know we did reach to certain group, you know, in those areas, but what we found again by focusing more on skills and abilities and less on the resume, we ended up with a much more diverse workforce. Max: Congratulations. That's the right way to go about it. Focus on competency, give everybody a chance. Glad to see it's paying off and helping you increase your DI metrics. There's maybe another element which is the fact that you're breaking down some of the borders and some of the geographical boundaries of your search and you were telling me how you're leveraging Canada as part of your employer brand. Can you share that story?Bob: Yeah, when the pandemic hit, the decision was made early on, and we basically cancelled our leases with our offices. We had two studios, one in London, Ontario which is about two hours west of Toronto and one is downtown Toronto, and so gone, studios gone. So, they went all in on transitioning to 100% remote. Again, sounds very good in theory but everybody was learning on the go, so to speak, and you know you've seen all the stories from everywhere from LinkedIn to all kinds of magazines.Max: I've seen my own rental bills go down and I'm very happy about it.Bob: Yeah. So, the thing is then it's taking a lot of that and investing in different pieces. So, in terms of talent acquisition, what is 100% in what we call Remote Awesome. It's a campaign that we started where you're free to move about the world. So, it's telling our Canadian employees, look you're not stuck in Canada. If you wanna go work in Barbados or Mexico for the winter, you could do that too. In terms of recruitment, though, what's happened is we've done two fronts. We said, look, you can come work for us, we work on a concept of core hours, and we do asynchronous work, and you can stay where you are. You could then stay where you are for six months and come to Canada if you want. Or if you want to come to Canada, we will help facilitate your move to Canada. So we tend to take a wide open approach and say, it's up to you. People are at different points of their lives, so some folks come to work for us and boom, either we start the process fairly quickly and other folks will say, yeah next summer, you know, basically July 2022 is when I'd like to apply, it'll take x amount of time, that'll be perfect. So, we, by focusing on, hey either we're able to work based on your interest. Staying where you are, including asynchronous work so you're not working from 11PM to 7AM, some sort of horrible shift. You know maybe like for example, I start work at 5AM because east coast time and we have exec meetings in the morning. Why do we have that? Because some of our executive team is in India and they've been working the large part of the day, right. So, it's that kind of flexibility that we can offer people and say, no everybody in the world has to work eastern standard time hours. That's not the case. And so, we offer flexibility, stay where you are, move later or move now. And so, with that approach, we've managed to get some amazing talents. So, we've grown from employees in two countries when I've joined, we're now up to 14 countries.Max: And their contracts are, some of them are local contracts and some of them are Canadian contracts and some of them are consultant contracts?Bob: Exactly. So, it depends on how long they're gonna spend. So, if you're on your way here, it's a consultant contract, right. So, it helps with integration so we could show immigration, we know who they are, they've worked with us for a little while, bring them in. If they wanna stay there permanently, then we use a local vendor that we pay people through and so that makes sure that all the right deductions are made, and they get access to all the social benefits. For example, France, Netherlands, and the UK. I think in France I think there was like 27 deductions from an individual's salary. So that was interesting to see. But again ---Max: Now you know why I left the country. Bob: Yeah. But that's managed for us. So, we just pay one entity an amount for an employee, and they handle all the deductions and payments. Max: There are a lot of vendors helping with this domain now and I suppose people can reach out to you if they need some recommendations on how to source the right vendor here. Have you had a discussion internally about having local payrates? I mean, you said people can work from anywhere. So, I guess everybody is paid, there's no differences based on where you live and their cost of living. Usually, people have different pay scales for different, let's say, geographies.Bob: No, we run on CTC, which is concept called cost-to-company. So, we look at it, right, so some have higher social legislation requirements, we'll call it that, some have lesser, right. But at the end of the day, what we look at is what the company pays out overall. So that people are paid about the same no matter where they are in the world. Again, we focus on skills, competencies, and so where you are doesn't matter because we do have a fairly tough and rigorous hiring system. So, if you do get through it, we know you're qualified, we know you're able to produce a certain amount of work which has a certain amount of value and we will pay you, just like we pay everybody else that's in a similar position to you no matter where you are. Max: Great, that's great. We in my company also universal pay scales and I'm trying to ring them up to San Francisco standards, but some people on LinkedIn were saying we're not as generous as we should be, but we're working up to it. If the whole world could be paid like San Francisco that'd be awesome. We're working towards that. We're reaching the end of our conversation and there's one question I'd like to ask everybody that comes on the show which is to go back to a hiring mistake that you've made in the past that has stayed with you a little bit and that you had time to reflect on so that you can share with the listeners the lesson that they can take from bad hiring mistake. Of course, I'm not asking for individual name but rather how you took a misstep that one time.Bob: Yes, and so I'm gonna go a little bit against the grain, because I know I've highlighted that I tend to focus on data and information. So, one time I went through a process I was hiring a fairly senior member of my team, Global Recruitment Director, and you know we're getting close, and it was very exciting. When I was doing that, I was asking for references, and when I talked to these references, it was very, something was off. And I'm a lawyer and I could just ask people all kinds of questions, usually you could get them to admit the most horrific thing they did when they were thirteen years old. And I thought I was very good, but something was eating at me, like, I'm missing something, like something's wrong here in this area. And it turned out that I was not as prepared as I could be for those reference checks. Three months later, that individual turned into a nightmare on many fronts, internal, external. It did a lot of reputational damage to the company from that individual. And it's one of those pieces where I've learned where I was a little bit cocky, and I didn't listen to my gut. So rather than be the experimenter, you know what I mean, something came up, I should've asked more questions and I didn't because I was in a hurry and i wanted to find this person, and this individual seemed great, right. And I cut corners, didn't listen to my gut and ended up coming back to be quite embarrassing for me. Max: That's a tough one right because you said you're the data guy and the guts got nothing to do with it, we're trying to silence that thing. But in this case, something was wrong with the reference check. Can you expand on that a bit? What were maybe some signals?Bob: It was the guarded nature, right. I talked at high levels, we tend to be quite positive, right. So, when you talk to people and say, okay you know hey I'm going to be managing this individual what kind of development do you think that they need? And it was two references where there was a pause and I thought that was fascinating. On that pause, I should've jumped on that more. But it was ---Max: This person needs therapy. Okay. All right. So, listen to the pause when you're doing your reference checks because obviously nobody likes to say bad things about their former employees. It can be a treacherous territory so you gotta be very attentive. Good lesson for everyone to remember. Thanks, Bob, for coming on the show and sharing your experience in expanding your talent pool and transforming the recruitment process of Viking Games. It's been a pleasure. Bob: All right. Well, thank you for having me on.Max: Pleasure.
How reassuring is a Biden re-run, really? ... Mickey finds hope in Omicron ... Mickey rejoices in Biden swerving right on immigration ... Marjorie Taylor Green's latest stunt ... Mickey: Inflation could kill soft infrastructure ... Bob: It's time for challenge trials to fight Omicron ... How popular is BBB? ... Bob pulls a jiu jitsu on Mickey's dental care/car lube metaphor ... How doomed is Roe v. Wade? ... Mickey's mini-rant on Chris Cuomo (and Chris Matthews) ... Parrot Room Preview: The trial of Ghislaine Maxwell, a speech from the (second) French Donald Trump, John Mearsheimer on China, Bret Weinstein on Omicron, Farhad Manjoo on cars, trash-talking Sam Harris, Andrew Sullivan sings B&M's praises, The Beatles: Get Back review, Stephen Sondheim retrospective, Mickey discusses decadence, JD Vance news, weird murder in Beverley Hills, and Iran talk ...
How reassuring is a Biden re-run, really? ... Mickey finds hope in Omicron ... Mickey rejoices in Biden swerving right on immigration ... Marjorie Taylor Green's latest stunt ... Mickey: Inflation could kill soft infrastructure ... Bob: It's time for challenge trials to fight Omicron ... How popular is BBB? ... Bob pulls a jiu jitsu on Mickey's dental care/car lube metaphor ... How doomed is Roe v. Wade? ... Mickey's mini-rant on Chris Cuomo (and Chris Matthews) ... Parrot Room Preview: The trial of Ghislaine Maxwell, a speech from the (second) French Donald Trump, John Mearsheimer on China, Bret Weinstein on Omicron, Farhad Manjoo on cars, trash-talking Sam Harris, Andrew Sullivan sings B&M's praises, The Beatles: Get Back review, Stephen Sondheim retrospective, Mickey discusses decadence, JD Vance news, weird murder in Beverley Hills, and Iran talk ...
Mickey: Sinema's tax plan is screwing up the infrastructure bill ... Bob: It's a political mistake to cut free community college ... Did Biden accidentally commit to defending Taiwan against attack? ... Why you shouldn't worry about China's new missile ... JD Vance's weird tweet about Alec Baldwin ... Can Trump be convinced not to run in 2024? ... Bob: Steve Bannon is still an extremely dangerous person ... US Covid numbers remain inscrutable ... Parrot Room preview: What Dave Chappelle said about Mike Pence, Merrick Garland's conflict of interest, how to bribe Trump into staying out of the race, death threats in politics, more car advice, Bob takes another crack at besting Mickey's joke, meditation retreats, Bob defends “the pounce move,” Alec Baldwin, King Juan Carlos's sex drive, and the French election ...
Mickey: Sinema's tax plan is screwing up the infrastructure bill ... Bob: It's a political mistake to cut free community college ... Did Biden accidentally commit to defending Taiwan against attack? ... Why you shouldn't worry about China's new missile ... JD Vance's weird tweet about Alec Baldwin ... Can Trump be convinced not to run in 2024? ... Bob: Steve Bannon is still an extremely dangerous person ... US Covid numbers remain inscrutable ... Parrot Room preview: What Dave Chappelle said about Mike Pence, Merrick Garland's conflict of interest, how to bribe Trump into staying out of the race, death threats in politics, more car advice, Bob takes another crack at besting Mickey's joke, meditation retreats, Bob defends “the pounce move,” Alec Baldwin, King Juan Carlos's sex drive, and the French election ...
Part 5, of our seven-part interview with Bob Regnerus of Feedstories. Topics covered in this episode Business Fundamentals that have Lasting ValueRole of a Coach in Business & SportsFacebook Ads: Books, Education & Seeking Knowledge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAE8ERY1Nd4 Transcription Intro Brian: Bob Regnerus of Feedstories, part 5. Hi I'm Brian Pombo, welcome back to Brian J. Pombo Live. Today's a little different than other days, we actually have part five of a conversation with Bob Regnerus. And so this has been a lot of fun, if you haven't caught the rest of them, go back and watch them. But if you would like to be on the podcast or if you'd like to have me on your podcast or speak at your event, go check out BrianJPombo.com. And now here is Bob Regnerus. Brian: If you can change one thing about either the industry that you work in, or your business itself, if you could change one thing what would it be? Bob: I think one of the things that bothers me about the marketing industry in general is there's a lot of disingenuis people who really aren't there to serve people, they're there to kind of make money. And you know, these people tend to get called out after time, they kind of get it…it's really hard to hide that stuff these days. You know, I mean, like, people talk and things like that. I really don't like people that take advantage of others. Also I'm not real keen on hacks versus fundamentals, in addition to running companies, I'm a high school basketball coach. And for us to be successful as a team year in year out, is we have to focus on fundamentals. I'm not big on this is like a fluke play or a tactic or a hack that probably has a shelf life of a couple months. I hate people getting…it's the bright shiny object syndrome. I hate when those things get weighed in front of people and they waste money on it and they spent a bunch of time. Yeah, maybe it works for a while and then it like fizzles overnight. I don't want people to be in that cycle. So I try to do things that are based on fundamentals that have lasting value. And yeah, I think that's what I would change, is that's probably the thing that bothers me the most. Brian: You mentioned coaching, coaching the sport versus coaching a business person with their marketing and so forth. What are the similarities and where are the differences? What do you like most about that aspect of it? Bob: It's great question. So coaching is the same. No matter what sports or business coach is not there to play the game coaches on the sidelines. The coaches preparing the players, the coaches is coming up with plays and going over strategy, and putting the pieces in place to make a team more successful. Same thing in business. I'm not running your business, I'm not there doing everything for you. Like, if I'm there doing something for you, then I should be like an equity partner or you know what I mean, like, I should be paid differently. I come in as a coach, and it's like, no, we're going to talk about strategy, we're going to talk about how you win, we're going to talk about positioning people in the right place, we're going to talk about things that have some lasting value. But in the end, it's really up to you to be successful. Now, a coach shares in the success, probably shares in the blame mare than the success. If a team loses, I try to absorb as much of that as possible, like I didn't prepare you enough, or I didn't put people in the right place. But you know, there's a shared sense of responsibility. But ultimately, the person playing the game, the person on the court, the person in that business is ultimately responsible. And I think it's a really good relationship for people. I don't want business owners abdicating their responsibility to a consultant or something like that. It doesn't make sense to me. Because then ultimately, do you really own that business,
Our seven-part interview with Bob Regnerus of Feedstories begins. Topics covered in this episode What led Bob to become a digital marketing and paid advertising expertThe THREE POWERFUL THINGS Bob's done in his career to help him thrive in business, and attract clientsHow Victor Cheng encouraged Bob to write his first book, Big Ticket EcommerceWhat are the main advantages of writing a book?Finding Your SUPERPOWER Full Convo ➡️ https://brianjpombo.com/bjpchats/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1RLL3CSeis Transcription Brian: Bob Regnerus of Feedstories, part one. This is a series of conversation that we had with Bob Regnerus. You're really going to enjoy it, you can watch all the other parts of it over at BJPchats.com. And you can see everything else that I'm offering my book, you can have me as a guest on your podcast if you're interested on being a pet guest on this podcast or the other ones we provide. Or if you'd like to have me as a speaker at your event, go check all of that out over at BrianJPombo.com. Now, here's the show. Brian (Intro to show): Coach Bob Regnerus is the co-founder of Feedstories, a digital marketing expert and the author of five books, including, The Fourth Edition of The Ultimate Guide to Facebook Advertising. Bob, welcome to Brian J. Pombo Live. Bob: It is so good to be with you, Brian. Looking forward to a lively conversation today. Brian: Yeah, good deal. So I like to jump into these things without a whole lot of research in general. But the issue is, is that I already knew who you were, because I'd seen you around. I knew that you had co-authored this book. And I'd seen your name around probably for years, because I think we have ran in similar circles. Bob: Yeah, that's probably likely. Brian: Yeah, just tell me…we'll get into the details as far as where you're at right now, eventually. But tell me how did you end up where you are? Bob: Yeah, well, I guess I took a little bit of an indirect approach to being an entrepreneur. I was a programmer by trade, I went to college, you know, studied computer science, studied business, I had a dual degree. And I ended up working for a large corporation out of college doing programming on mainframe computers, that's the computers that take up a whole room. Did that worked at a couple different corporate jobs, and I met a guy at one of my gigs who was there on contract. And like, I was an employee, he was on a contract, I thought that was interesting. He kind of made his own hours. And he was making, you know, I mean, he wasn't getting benefits from the company but it felt like he was making more money than me doing kind of what he was doing. So I became friends with him and eventually, I went on my own with him and was doing some contract work. I worked for TransUnion, the big credit bureau. That was about 1998, I really got the bug for the internet. Obviously 1998 we're going back a few years, internet wasn't what it is today. Right? But I was a coder. I actually developed my first e-commerce website, I built a shopping cart for a business from scratch. By the way, there's still a client today, there's still a client. So it's pretty awesome. But we launched that thing in 98 and it was pretty funny. The business owner who I'm friends with is like, this is great, you know, we're getting orders, like the middle of the night, you know, when we're closed, it was a big deal. He's like, how do we get more people to the site? I said, oh, that's not a big deal, I know exactly how to do that. And of course I had no idea how to do that. So that's where I dove into the World of internet marketing and direct marketing. Discovered Dan Kennedy and Perry Marshall and all those things. I really became a student of marketing. And I shifted from being a technology person to a marketing person, just kind of felt really comfortable for me, it felt like the next step.
Max: Hello. Welcome back to the recruitment hackers podcast. I'm your host Max Armbruster. And today on the show, I'm delighted to welcome Bob Mather, who is a private investigator, as well as the founder and CEO of one of the leading. Background checking company, Pre-Employ, Bob, welcome to the show. Bob: Hey Max, how's it going?Max: Going strong going strong. We in the introduction introduced you as a private investigator. Is this how you stumbled into the world of technology? With long rain coats and you know, stalking people in their private lives. Bob: Wow. You have really just painted quite a picture.No, but close. Even though at one time, I didn't have a rank though. I did have one of those coats. It was probably 20 years ago. I started out my career specializing in embezzlement for retailers. So I would be the guy in the company that they would hire when they were missing $10,000, $20,000, whatever.And then I would bring in a forensic team or a surveillance team and would try to put the pieces of the puzzle together and find out who was embezzling. And then I would also help. Yeah. I would help with the prosecutions. If there were criminal charges, advise them my opinion on what they should do and how they should do it.And then also work with civil restitution recovery. Max: Wow. That's great. This is the great foundation, right? Because you have seen the crimes committed and with your own eyes, so you can really empathize with your customers. Bob: Yeah, well, yeah, I've done thousands of interrogations for the specific embezzlement type cases. I also work with employers when it comes to workplace investigations and always have whether it be discrimination of sexual harassment other types of things, my team and I will come in and put the pieces together and show what really has happened with all of the emotion out of it.But when I first started doing this was in the early nineties and background checks really weren't a thing then, and back in the nineties and you know, there wasn't even an internet. Really, the internet had just started. We had Netscape. Right. We had this world of background checks that was done, when we did do a background check, it was very expensive and it was done by paper.And you might call the local sheriff or even try to get you could walk into a courthouse. You couldn't, there was no technology then. And hiring. If you wanted to hire someone you needed a background check on them. It could take a month. it just was the way it was, had been done forever, but with technology and I was an early adopter in technology, you know we started doing background checks.What happened was I was doing embezzlement investigations. And in one region of the United States, I caught, I investigated, prosecuted, and put a person in jail that was stealing thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. About a year or so later, another company called me and said, hey, We're losing thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars.And I said, well, okay, I can schedule to be down there. I'll start the investigation, but can you send me your employee list? Let's see who's working there now. I'd like to see. And there was on the employee list they sent, there was the same guy.And I said, well, you know, If they only would have known, you know 400 miles away, he just got out of jail.Max: you know, all the great embezzlement guys that should be working for you.Bob: Yeah, no, no. When you work that type of work, the only embezzlement guys and girls, I know are the unlucky ones or the ones that are not that smart. The good ones I've never met. Max: I was just thinking, yeah maybe there's a limit, right? If you embezzle $500, you never get caught.If you're inbezzlel, half a million, obviously you're the venture you'll get caught pretty soon. Maybe there's a sweet spot there. I don't know. Bob: I think it's like playing blackjack or gambling. If you quit, you might get away with it. But the longer you play, the odds are against you. Max: Okay, great.Well I suppose yeah, millions of dollars are being saved now by the retail sector because of providers such as yourself. Have you been able to quantify that you know, for the industry or how do you put a number on it for your customers at the beginning of those discussions?I suppose now it's not so much. I suspect someone is taking money from you, it's more, standardized, right? Bob: It's more standardized now. It's for safety, is really the big concern right now. Safety of customers, safety of other employees. And as the industry progressed in the early 2000s, I mean, basically it was this.If the company. Whether it was a hospital or a retailer down the street did background checks and you didn't, you only were really sure of one thing. The people that were afraid to get their background checked were not applying at the guy who does the background checks. They were coming to you.And we actually would see that. So when we would get a new client. We would do background checks on all the employees and to do that, they would have to sign a form. Well, we would get people that would just leave. Like they wouldn't come to work. It was over. And then once we looked into it further, we could see that they had, you know, quite a background and then they would go to the next company that didn't do background checks.And, and today it's 90%, 96% of employers in most industries do background checks. Max: I was thinking about that. So for those 4%, that's that don't do, you know, maybe they have a wonderful opportunity, right? Because then they really have to pick up the litter. They can choose between anybody who has a criminal record, they can choose between them and they can take the best ones, the ones that truly want to reform their lives and, you know, start fresh, the ones that quit like a blackjack.Bob: Yeah. Or the ones that had a type of crime that really doesn't have anything to do with the position. So in the world of finance, for example obviously embezzlement would be a very big concern. It would be a killer of any opportunity, but not necessarily let's say a bar fight or where you got drunk driving.Right. So You know, the industry has changed and it's still changing, Now there's not only a demand. When we first started out in the 2000s and 2010s, there wasn't the emphasis on speed as there is now, or talent acquisition leaders now are driven by the need to hire and to hire at scale.You know, we've got a starting class. We need to have X number of people. Hundreds of people are coming in and I need these done now. And for a lot of organizations that can be scary because the person who's ordering and overseeing the selection of what company to use is in such a hurry. And it gets bonuses and it gets financial payments for getting people through the system.They don't necessarily care about the quality like it used to be. It's a strange relationship. Max: It's commoditized and it's looked as as a necessary, a mandatory step, as opposed to something, a selection that you make purposefully, just like you said, like someone, you should also select a vendor very carefully.And of course, nobody is very as educated on the art of selecting. A background checking company as they are on the art of selecting a candidates. And I suppose every vendor will propose the most thorough checks at the most competitive price. And I don't, I've never personally gone through the tendering process of selecting between different vendors within your position.Bob: So many hidden, there's so many hidden secrets in it. You know what most talent acquisition and HR leaders, or procurement leaders don't realize is that we can draft a background check based on what you demand from us. You want it super cheap. Don't worry. We can do it. It's like walking into an ice cream store.And if you said to the person behind the ice cream store, I want an ice cream sundae, but I only want to pay $3. But I need it big and they're like, okay, well, they're probably going to select the ingredients that makes you happy, but it's not really the best. So there's things that background check companies do that the type of tools they use to find where a person has lived.So in the States we use a social security number, and a social security number is put into a database and the database then says, look, Max has lived in seven places around the world in the past seven years. And so we would send investigators or do our, have our technology going to the courthouses. In those seven geographic areas.Well, if your employer is demanding fast, they don't care. It's fast. They want fast. We can choose between one and probably 35 different social security number, locators, or address locators, including some that bring back, it will probably show that you lived in two places. Right. The quality of what a background check company does in the hiring process is actually negotiable.And it's demandable and you can put together service level agreements and demands that look, we need the best. We want to protect our employees. What is the price going to be? Or most people just say, I want a background check. I want an ice cream sundae. It's the same thing. It's a commodity. Right? Give me one. Max: There's some of this background checking that is still being done in house. And then I guess increasingly it has been, I don't know, is it increasingly done? In-house are increasingly being outsourced?Bob: It's going more outsourced now. But you know what it is, what a lot of recruiters do do, it's now starting to be outsourced. Is and most, and a lot of recruiters and a lot of talent acquisition won't admit this probably let's see what next time you get some of your next guest, ask them if they've ever looked at Facebook or a social media profile for one of their applicants. Most of them secretly do. It's not part of the background check.Max: Oh, of course you have to. I mean if you're a hiring manager, that's what you would do. I would imagine. Yeah,Bob: But think about that. Is that part of the background check? Max: No, it's just, you know, curiosity. Yeah. Bob: That's part of the background check. It's part of the interview process that no one knows is going on. In the background check industry it's actually becoming a formal part where with technology, we go through your profile and look for keywords or phrases that may, that gives it brings back a score that says this person may not meet your profile. Based on 17 times using this word, which is deemed offensive to most people.Right. Now there's a big argument if that's right or wrong, but that's really what's that, like you said, of course it's happening now. It's just now coming forward and becoming more I don't know, just more efficient.Max: Yeah. It's unfortunate that it's seen through the prism of basically the background check as a veto power to say no to a particular person, if they use a particular type of language as opposed to being a sourcing engine where you would match the tone of the people in your company with the tone of the people outside your company and find some commonalities and culture and attitudes. Bob: That's where it's going. I think I have one of my divisions, my background check it's called it's pretty simple. It's my background check. Because if you think about it, Max, what we do in the world is crazy.Talent acquisition goes out there and we pay a ton of money to put ads. To put out things saying, please come to work for us. So you have an ad that says, hey, I'm looking for someone like Bob, and I see your ad. And I'm like, hey, I might like working for you Max. And we start to do this relationship dance.You say, hey, here's my benefits. Here's what I'll pay. Here's the working environment. I say, look, here's my resume. Here's what I've done. I say, Max, I really like what I see. And you say, hey Bob, I really like what I see. We should form a business relationship and we should spend 40 hours a week together for a common goal.Let's do this. I'd be like, all right, let's do this. And then you say, Hey, stop. I want you to go pee in a cup so I can search your urine for drugs. And I need your name, your date of birth and your social security number. So I can search your background. It's a crazy world. It's like, I'll be like, Ooh, max, wait a minute.Max: I just thought we were friends.Bob: Yeah. I was excited. Think what's happening and what we're doing with my background check. And I think over the next five or six years, you're going to see a flip in. What we're going to do is lead the charge to make a background check mine. And it's part of my resume.I'll show you a copy of my degree. I'll give you the name of my employers and I'll show you my background check. You can verify it, but let's get this done at the beginning. This is who I am. And you know, I had a DUI or I got in a bar fight, but this is who I am. You want to talk about it now?Max: Yeah, the first baby step was let's move our resumes to LinkedIn, which everybody did 20 years ago.Still, you know, 90% of the welders is not on LinkedIn, but of course, for me, it's more valuable to look at a profile, which is publicly available with, you know, references where, you know, I mean, I'm sure you can lie on LinkedIn, but it seems like you would lie a little bit more on the resume, right?Just you have a little bit more artistic expression? I like freedom.Bob: I can tell you stories, Max. Trust me. Max: Okay. We'll get there. They're bobs. But the point is, yeah, the baby step is more validated content through third parties. And of course rather than making it awkward for you as an employer to ask for my urine sample, if you need to have access to it, why would I refuse it.I mean, I suppose some people would, by the way, if anybody feels they've got something to add to my company at Talkpush, but they don't want to take a urine test. They're welcome to join Talkpush, we don't check for that.Bob: What about background checks, max? Do you do. Max: We do not.But I'm not so proud of that. I suppose background checks do have a place even for a tech startup. Bob: Yeah. you have to go with what, how you feel, what's right for your company. Max: I mean in our case, it's you know, we try to mimic what you just described, where it's a transactional approach to 40 hours a week and just , build trust on that and on outputs rather than background. But yeah. You seem like, I do think that there's some pushback. I mean, it is the world's plugging into not red state blue state, but you know, privacy, non privacy maniacs whereas some people will just, even though they have nothing to hide, they just refuse on principle to take part in some of these investigations?Bob: We don't see a lot of people who refuse to take part in investigations, but in the States we see a lot of legislation that is being pushed forward to do things like delete somebody's criminal record, once they're done and to reduce access for an employer.But look if you've applied for a job, you probably need the job, and there's a compelling reason for you to comply with what the new employer is going to say. But you know, background checks to me, background checks should be part of the discussion, not a speed bump to recruiting. not something where you say, stop, I need to go dig into your background.And then you come back after we've spent all that time getting to know each other. Now I come back and say, oh, sorry that you know, this probably isn't going to be a fit because of this or that. It should be at the beginning of the process. You know, you wouldn't, interview me if I didn't put in an application.Right. If I just, if I walked up and said, hey, I'd like here, CFO job. You're like, all right, can I see something like, ah, no. No, we'll talk about it later. Let's why don't you waste your time and interview me? And then later I'll tell you about my experience, once we get into it. Max: So , you're an advocate of putting as much of that at the front of the funnel.Bob: I think somebody, yeah I think it's my background. I think it's my background check. I own it. And I should share it with who I want when I want it to do it. And by the way, that's probably going to save you. It's going to save businesses about 9 billion a year in background checks, and it's going to speed up hiring Max: that's the size of the industry.Bob: Yeah, roughly it goes back and forth. No one knows for sure. Max: Yeah, it's big. We know it's big. It's probably bigger than the recruitment software industry.Bob: And that's big too though, but yeah, in a different way. Yeah. A different SAS model. Max: Yeah. Great. Well let's go into the horror stories.Bob: What do you want to know that I can talk about. Max: Well, we don't have to give names, but I, what do I want to know? I don't know what I want to know. What's gonna keep me up at night?No, normally I ask the guests on the show to talk about a hiring mistake that they made. And it has nothing to, I mean, the stuff that's come out has generally not been tied back to background checking, but rather with, I mean, indirectly with, I didn't really check their qualification or I picked a friend instead of picking somebody who is right for the job, things like that. And well, I'm sure as you're a decade, plus, as an entrepreneur, you've made hiring mistakes too.Bob: I have, I've definitely made hiring mistakes. My biggest hiring mistakes have been salespeople that have sold me that they can sell and they can't. What happened? You sold me. I'm like, yeah, you are easy. If I go, well, I can, you at least call Max wants and see if he wants to do business?I've heard he doesn't do background checks. Max: That's universal. We've all made those hiring mistakes. Bob: What I see from my clients is first of all, 99% of the people in the world are great people, you know, and their background and a background check mistake they've made in the past, really has nothing to do with who they are now or who they're going to be.But there also are the career criminals and the really, really, really bad people. If you do a Google search right now, you'll see a Florida babysitter that was on several nanny websites, who was a child molester and was a teacher, another one that was a teacher for two year olds. And I think maybe five-year-olds. These are people that are predators, that have to go to a place that doesn't do a background check. The end. You can't, if you are a predator and in this case, a sexual predator, you can't have access to children for a place that does a background check. If you are a career criminal from embezzlement, you can't get access to cash, unless it's a place that doesn't do background checks.If you are a prescription drug stealer, we see this actually a lot. They'll find a place where they have access to elderly for home care purposes, and that they will do horrible things to elderly people besides stealing their prescriptions or part of their prescriptions. Max: Of course, all of this makes sense, but there's also a sense of futility about it because you know that 80- 90% of crimes and theft and you know, misdemeanors and all those actions committed are unrecorded. And that there's no trace left behind. Bob: Correct. Right. Yeah.Max: I mean, that's my estimate.Bob: Great. Thanks Max, now I'm depressed.No, you know, but for business reasons, there's also that if you don't do it, you're going to have tremendous lawsuits when something bad does happen that you could have prevened. Yeah. So there's not only that, you know, a lot of business, people don't necessarily care if they sleep good at night, they don't care.It's what's the bottom line and you can save a lot of money if you don't do background checks, or if you do cheap background checks, but the litigation that can come and the damage to your reputation and your company's reputation can be significant. Max: Well, of course, 9 billion in revenue didn't come out of nowhere. Obviously people can see the ROI. Bob: Yeah, and it's also can be used as a preventative. So, like I said, the bad people move on and you know, you can sleep a little better at night. Max: Okay. So. It doesn't make you a bad person to use these background checks. It just makes sure that you don't end up with the leftovers, the people who self-select out of those companies, that'll be more vigilant.So look at what your peers do and at least try to align, unless you have made a conscious decision to attract a certain breed of dangerous characters. Is the message from Bob. And where can people get a hold of you and connect with the Pre-employ.com? Well, you can find me on LinkedIn or my profile is accurate.And it's Bob, M a T H E R. Or you can get a hold of me at any of my companies, pre employe.com or my backgroundcheck.com. So you can also find me on Twitter at @BobMather. Max: And then me as an individual I can create my background check Bob: Yeah. Max: Oh, great. So I can decide how much I want to share and decide my medical history or this history or that's and the other.Bob: Yeah, well we don't delve into medical history, but we do into you know, the background check, the verification part.Have you ever applied for a job that you had a background check done? Max: I don't know. Bob: It's an unnerving process. I'm telling you. It's unnerving. It's weird. It's like this secret investigation and people sit there and go, what are they going to find? Are they going to call my mom?Like, what if they call my mom? Oh my God. My mom knows stuff that I did, like calm down. Because we deal with applicants who call us and they're like, what are you? You know, I did this in high school. You 15 years ago, like, no, we're not going to report anything like that.Yeah, it's a scary process for applicants. Max: So with my background check is it possible for an employer to direct, a candidate to my background check and say, just share with us what you're comfortable with sharing with us. We'll take care of the rest. Bob: Yeah, it is.Max: It's more of an opt-in processBob: Depending on what country you're in. What state you're in in the States, what jurisdiction, if it's legal or not. To require that as an applicant, but basically yes. And that's my end goal. My end goal in five or six years, as the majority of people will want to know what's in their background check and really want to make sure it's accurate, you know, to make sure that somebody didn't put the wrong criminal record when my identity was stolen three years ago.What if someone did a crime with that name? You know, we find people, we have helped people all the time that have arrest records. That they said that's not me. Max: That it takes forever to get that wiped off. Right. Bob: You can't, it's almost impossible because there is a criminal record with your name, your date of birth, your driver's license. They stole your identity. You stopped your credit cards. That was smart. Good job. But then they walked around with a whole new identity and can do almost what they want. It's crazy. Max: Well, if that doesn't keep you up at night.All right. Thanks a lot, Bob. Thanks for scaring the bejesus out of us. No, thank you for setting up a nice direction for the industry where people can have control over their identity and all the best to Pre-employ.com.Bob: Thanks Max. It's great meeting you and I hope to meet many of your listeners.Max: That was Bob Mather from Pre-Employ, reminding us that a background screening is not strictly about who you want to employ proactively, but it's also a way to define who you are as an employer with regards to your competitive landscape. If ever yone of your competitors is screening for a particular type of criminal record, but you're aren't, you're most likely to end up with a talent pool filled with criminals. So look at your competitors and calibrate yourself accordingly. Hope you enjoyed the conversation with Bob and that you'll be back for more. Remember to subscribe to the Recruitment Hackers podcast.
Bob Wells runs Cheap RV Living and appears in the film, Nomadland. To offer your own advice, call Zak @ 844-935-BEST TRANSCRIPT: BOB: My name is Bob Wells and I live in a van and I have a website called CheapRVLiving.com and youtube channel called, Cheap RV Living and I like to tell people they have a choice. ZAK: If you've seen the new movie Nomadland, then you know Bob Wells. He was in the movie. He was in a couple scenes. He looks just like Santa Claus. Here he is in the movie which stars Frances McDormand as a woman in her 60s who, after losing everything in the Great Recession, is traveling across the country in a van. And then she meets a bunch of other van-dwelling people and we learn about their lives. One of those people is Bob Wells, who plays himself just like a lot of the characters. Nomadland Excerpt ZAK:I connected with Bob last week over Zoom. He was visiting his family in the Pacific Northwest and I was in my office in Detroit. BOB: Ok, here's my one piece of advice. Our society is organized to give us the most possible menial, unimportant choices that we possibly can have. So our life is full of meaningless choices. But the big choices in life are really few and far between and we don't get to make them. So, if I could tell your audience anything, I would tell them that they have many, many more choices then they know and to stop worrying about the little, tiny ones that are meaningless and think about the big ones. Think about the ones that will impact your life and the lives of the people you love. Question everything. Look at all the possible options. Take a chance. ZAK: And what's the first time you remember consciously taking a chance on something unconventional. BOB: I wasn't brave enough. I feel in the trance and stayed there. I was deeply hypnotized. I went through a divorce so I set up two households and I couldn't afford to pay for two households so I was forced into a different choice. I had always been a camper and a backpacker. I saw a van on the way to work for sale and one day the idea popped into my head... completely unconventional choice. I could live in that van. I can live in a tent for months at a time. I can live in that van better! I stopped. I bought the van and I moved in. And at first I hated it. I felt ashamed. I felt like I was a failure. I had utterly failed in the American Dream and all of a sudden. Well, not all of a sudden. Gradually, I fell in love with that life and for the very first time in my life, I was happy. ZAK: What do you think is our species essence? BOB: It's connection. Our species essence is connection. Connected to nature. Connected to each other. Connected to the sacred. It's deep, profound. You ask any anthropologist about what humans are. We are a pack animal. That is a simple, science of humanity. We are pack animal. And instead of being a pack animal that lives in packs, profoundly connecting to each other and everything around us, we've become ants or bees in a hive. And we've lost all connection to each other. ZAK: So do you live by yourself in the RV? BOB: I do live alone in my RV but I usually have a pack around me. ZAK: Well some of us aren't going to become nomads. At least not yet. What do you think is something that we might practice today to get some of the feeling that you get from being on the road without actually packing up and hitting the road like you did? BOB: Well, you can embrace minimalism. That's one thing you have to be pretty minimal. Nomads were all minimalists. Things were a burden. The attitude always was, if I have too much stuff and I have to carry it to the next stop cause that's where the food and water is, then that stuff is a burden and I don't want it. So that is an attitude that every nomad had and you could adopt tomorrow. You can stand up right now, get a bag, go around, find a lot, a lot, a lot of crap in your house that you don't need and get rid of it. And that will free you.
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic MarriageDay 1 of 8Guest: Dennis RaineyFrom the series: Why Romance is Important _______________________________________________________________ (Nat King Cole singing "L-O-V-E") Bob: Believe it or not, this is FamilyLife Today. Our host is best-selling author and conference speaker, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. Stay with us as we talk about L-O-V-E today on FamilyLife Today. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. Dennis: Do you think our listeners know who Nat King Cole is, Bob? Bob: Oh, yeah, everybody knows who Nat King Cole is. I bought a two-record collection when I was in college, just because I thought, "He's got the smoothest voice, it's the most romantic music I've ever heard." Dennis: Well, you know, we also have a lot of romantic adventures at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference, and I've got a letter here from a conferee couple who attended the Phoenix FamilyLife Marriage Conference – I think this was back in 1991. This is a classic, keeper letter from the archives of the thousands of attendees who have been to our conference. Bob: Now, this is on hotel stationery, right? Dennis: That's right – the Hyatt Regency Scottsdale. "Dear Dennis, when you suggested last night for us to be more creative in our romance, you never gave us the warning that it could be dangerous." Then in all capital letters, it reads, "RULE NUMBER 1 – ALWAYS BE PREPARED! AT LEAST WITH A SPARE KEY" – and now the rest of the story. "After dinner and the sunset, we decided to take your advice and to add a little romance and be a little daring. Staying here at the hotel, we crept out onto our fourth-floor balcony for an incredibly romantic view, not to mention some privacy. Unbeknown to us, while we were 'communicating' and 'learning more about each other,' the maid was inside our bedroom, turning down our bedsheets for us. She did not know we were on the balcony. We did not know she was in the room. Maybe you can guess the rest. She locked the sliding glass door." It is signed, "Two lovers, romantic sky, and lots of privacy. Embarrassed from California." Bob: So you have no idea how they ever got back in, huh? Dennis: Your mind is only left to wonder – how did they get back in, there on the fourth floor of the hotel? Bob: Well, that is a part of what we hope will be a romantic evening for couples at the FamilyLife Marriage Conference, but we hope that's not the end of romantic evenings for couples. Dennis: Well, we really talk about FamilyLife Marriage Conference, taking Saturday and making it an adventure. That's not the kind of adventure we're talking about. We are talking about adding romance to your relationship, and I think at our conferences across the United States, that's what a lot of couples really seen infused back into their marriage relationship through all the teachings of scripture that build intimacy in their marriage relationship, they better understand how to relate to each other as husband and wife, and what I wanted to do, Bob, was I wanted to take the next few days, prior to Valentine's Day, and I wanted us to talk about the all-important subject of romance. Bob: Now, you call it an all-important subject. You kind of get the feel that romance is something that's a part of the courtship process. After marriage, romance just doesn't seem like it has the same, you know – Dennis: – sizzle. Bob: Yeah, yeah. Dennis: Yeah, that's right. Well, let me just read something from Song of Solomon, okay? Song of Solomon, chapter 1, verse 2 – "May he kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is better than wine; your oils have a pleasing fragrance; your name is like purified oil; therefore, the maidens love you. Draw me after you." Now, here's the Shulamite woman who is attracted to Solomon. She is wanting her husband as the bride, and, you know, it's interesting that our God devoted an entire book of the 66 books that are in the inspired Word of God to this subject of romantic love, and one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this is I think Christians are afraid of the subject, Bob. I think we're afraid to address this whole area of romantic love in marriage even though our God thought it all up in the first place. Bob: Some people have suggested that Song of Solomon is a parable showing us God's love for Israel or Jesus' love for His church. You're saying that God put it in the Bible to talk about the romantic relationship between a husband and wife? Dennis: I wonder about the people who say that – if they really read the verses, because they've got to do away with a lot of physical imagery that doesn't leave that much to the imagination. I mean, it's clear they're talking about the whole area of romantic and sexual love in a marriage relationship. Bob: Is romance really important for a marriage? I mean, can't a marriage survive just fine for 30 or 40 years and not have a whole lot of sizzle and spark to it? Dennis: Well, I think marriages can survive, I think that's a key word, but will they be what God intended? I say not. One of the things that happens in a marriage relationship is if we don't have romance, something that adds excitement and adventure, intrigue, thrill, I think we get caught up in the negative about our spouse, and when you begin to focus on the negative and the faults of the other person, that relationship begins to spiral downward. And one of the reasons why I think Valentine's is such an important time of the year, especially for the Christian marriages, is to remind us that we ought to be making this subject of romance a part of our everyday diet in our marriage relationship. The Bible speaks about, over in Proverbs, chapter 5, verse 15 and then 18 through 19, that a man was to be captured by his wife's sexual powers. He was to be captivated by his wife. That's a powerful image to be literally captured by your spouse. The Bible is talking about this as far as thrill, excitement, adventure, an emotional excitement that I think sets a marriage apart from just a pure friendship. I mean, Barbara is my friend, but there is a side of our friendship that goes way beyond just two friends who are pals to two people who, yes, share a marriage bed together and who dream thoughts and share intimacies that are shared with nobody else on this planet, and that's what God intended, I believe, in the marriage relationship. Bob: Well, now, you've got 50 percent of your audience listening to you, goin', "Preach it, Brother Rainey. Yes, amen." Dennis: And what sex might they be? Bob: Well, some of 'em are women who are saying, "Yes, talk to my husband and teach him how to be more romantic with me," and others are men saying, "Yes, talk to my wife." It's interesting that opposites attract in this area. Dennis: Well, you know, therein lies a real problem in discussing this, because I'll just let our listeners in on some research we did out of our FamilyLife Marriage Conference. We researched over 800 of our conferees at three different FamilyLife Marriage Conferences last spring about how they viewed romance, and, I've got to tell you, men and women view it through a different set of eyes. A woman looks at romance through the eyes of intimacy, relationship, warmth. It's that connectedness of the soul and emotions, heart-to-heart. And the men looked at romance – well, how shall we say it? It was one word – sex. And you see what God is up to here, because he made us different. We are to depend upon each other, and in the process of being different, I think what God wants to do is cause both of us to love each other where we are. You see what God is up to here, is I think God is wanting to knock the edges off of me, as a man, and our male listeners, learning how to love their wives in a way that communicates love so that she feels love – not how we feel about love or what communicates love to us as men but instead learning to put on the side of love that meets a wife at that relational point of need, and there are a lot of men today who I think are frustrated sexually in their marriage relationships, primarily – listen carefully – primarily because they still have not learned how to meet their wives' emotional needs so she can be released to meet her husband's needs. Bob: Mm-hm. I've had Mary Ann from time to time say to me, "I just don't feel like we've had an opportunity to talk with one another over the last two or three days," and for a wife that is a sign of drift in the marriage relationship, isn't it? Dennis: Yeah, and I've had that same conversation with Barbara as well. I think the reason God gave us romance is He gave us a mysterious emotional love that we were to experience together as a couple. Even Webster's definition of romance, which talks about excitement, love, adventure – all those words, I think, are a part of what marriage ought to be – Christian marriage. Our God designed these emotions. I think romance – romantic love – is a part of the character of God. May I quote a Christian statesman? One of the most godly men who has ever lived who wrote a book, "My Utmost For His Highest." It's been on the best-seller list for years – Oswald Chambers. Listen to what he said about passion in Christian marriage. "Human nature, if it is healthy, demands excitement, and if it does not obtain its thrilling excitement in the right way, it will seek it in the wrong. God never made bloodless stoics. He makes passionate saints." I love that quote, because I think that's the picture of a God who loves his people and who wired us to have excitement and thrill and adventure. It's not just for the single people who are involved in courtship, or just for the newly married couple who are just starting out with the high-intensity, high-octane of fresh married love. No, that romantic love, I believe, was meant to still pull us along and sweep us along in a steady current all the way through our married life. Bob: And yet it's become almost a cliché, Dennis, to talk about the honeymoon being over. It does seem that relationships go through some kind of stages. Dennis: Well, at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference, we talk about there being five phases of marriage deterioration. In other words, every marriage goes through some predictable phases where it begins to lose steam, and reality begins to set in. The first phase is what we call the "romance phase," and that's usually dating, honeymoon – it's when we're spending hours to get ready for a date, hours to plan the date. Each person sees each other at their very best, but it's not a real picture of a real relationship. This phase gives way to Phase 2, which we call the "transition phase," and this is honeymoon or early marriage, and I like to say at this phase – this is where reality begins to edit the illusion. The illusion of what we thought was a relationship is now being snipped away at by the cold, hard realities of life, and couples begin to make adjustments to each other in their values, their habits, their expectations, and can give way to criticism and snipping at each other, and the feelings begin to lower during this period of time. Well, Phase 2 gives way to Phase 3, which is the full-blown reality phase and, frankly, this is where marriages are either won or lost. Some of the things that press in against us during this reality phase – moving – a lot of couples move after they get married; differing friends; job changes and stress; conflicting material values – they start seeing how they handle the checkbook; children come along, there's parenting pressures; in-law interference; difficulties; health issues; problems in life – all of these things press in against the relationship and now the illusion has been fully edited. Bob: And they begin to put a little chill on the romantic side of marriage, don't they? Dennis: Well, romance is replaced by disappointment and discouragement, and when that begins to fuel the relationship, two people who had turned toward each other in the dating years now can turn against each other, and that really leads us to the fourth phase, the "retaliation phase," and that's where emotional and even physical retaliation becomes an alternative, and it's unthinkable that a couple who had held hands would now cut away at the person they said they wanted to spend the rest of their lives with. Resentment and bitterness begin to take up residence where romance had once been. A man begins to sell his life out to his job, because that's where he gets rewards; women to likewise, or she sells her life out to her children, and what begins to happen here is marriage is viewed with despair – no longer expectancy, excitement or thrill. You don't look forward to getting home in the evening and spending the evening together or the weekends together. You find a way to allow that relationship to be crowded out. And that really gives way to the last phase, Phase 5 – that's the "rejection phase," and that's the death of a relationship in which there are really two alternatives – one which is legal divorce, where two people separate and go their own ways or, really, where most relationships end up dying, and that is emotional divorce, where two people just simply withdraw from each other, and there's a truce. Bob: It seems like in the early phases that you describe, Dennis, romance is easy. In the last two phases, it's almost impossible, because of the anger or the bitterness or the other things that have begun to take root. It's really in that middle phase, the reality phase, where, as you said, the battle for romance is won or lost. Dennis: You know, that's where we've got to win the battle, is before you ever get to this time of resentment and retaliation and rejection, where you're at the tail-end of the relationship, and you've got to breathe so much life back into the marriage it almost seems hopeless. But you know what? I want to go back to that reality phase, because that's where all of us live. We've all got to learn, in the midst of the time pressures with kids and finances and jobs and health issues – how do we hammer out a Christian life? You know, I've given the better part of two decades here at FamilyLife dedicating myself and this ministry to writing books like, "Staying Close," to helping couples deal with the reality phase, or "Building Your Mate's Self-Esteem," another book where we talked about how you can build up the other person so you don't ever get to the point where you're rejecting your spouse; or the FamilyLife Marriage Conference, which is a weekend to help couples go back to that reality phase, and give them a biblical game plan for how they can move through reality and move on to blessing, where their relationship and love for one another matures and grows, and I think that's exactly what God wants to do, as He instructs us to the scripture. He is moving us to mature love, commitment, and it's nothing that's not spoken enough about today, and we're going to be talking about it a lot here in the coming days. Bob: Well, Dennis, some of our listeners are thinkin', "The last thing on my mind is romance at this point. We've moved into Phases 4 or 5 – retaliation or rejection, and the anger and the bitterness that is a part of this – I can't even think about romance. Is this series going to apply to me?" Dennis: I think it will, and we're going to be sensitive to those couples who are finding themselves in unequally yoked marriages where a person is married to someone who is not a believer or someone who is not growing spiritually. Perhaps Psalm 27, verse 13 would bring some hope – "I would have despaired unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord, be strong, and let your heart take courage. Yes, wait for the Lord." And I think there's a time to wait in prayer, but there may be some things that a person can do in that situation, where you're married to a spouse who is totally apathetic about that relationship, and if you're in that situation, could I encourage you to, yes, do pray, and do ask God to deliver you from despair and begin to give you the courage that only He can give you to build into that marriage and perhaps by adding romance back into that relationship, perhaps that will be the missing ingredient to help your spouse come to faith in Jesus Christ. Let me just conclude our broadcast today with some action points that can help you be a better romantic lover of your spouse. First of all, take a romantic inventory of your relationship. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being excellent, how would you rate romance as a part of your marriage relationship? Tonight ask your spouse to do that and then compare notes and see how you're doing. Secondly, and this comes from the questions book. You shared about how listeners could get a copy of that – from the questions book, I like to ask Barbara this question all the time, because it really does spark romance in our relationship, and it sounds odd, but I ask her this question – What are the three most romantic times that we've shared together? What brought those sparks originally? What's caused romance? Why would you select that? And there's something about reliving those romantic moments that I think gives us insight into why our spouse chose that and can also add that excitement back to our relationship today. A third application point would be to pray and ask God to help you begin courting your spouse. You know, there are some listeners who are in a hurting marriage, where that's where they need to start right there – is in prayer asking God to give them some hope, to begin to court their spouse once again. Bob: Well, let me add a fourth, and that's to join us back here tomorrow at this same time, when we're going to talk about the "romance robbers" in a relationship – the foxes in the vineyard, right? Dennis: That's right. Bob: That's on tomorrow's edition of FamilyLife Today. I hope you can join us for that. Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Nat King Cole singing "L-O-V-E") FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. ______________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 2 of 8 Guest: Barbara Rainey From the Series: Woman's View of Romance________________________________________________________________Bob: This is FamilyLife Today. Your host is the executive director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine, and today we'll learn from Barbara Rainey just how a woman does view romance on FamilyLife Today. (Music: "How To Handle A Woman") And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. Dennis: You know, Bob, because of who we have in the studio today, I've decided I'm just going to kind of push back from the microphone and get my notepad out and take notes. Bob: Is that right? Dennis: That's right. I really feel, in due respect for my wife, she's an authority on the subject she's about to speak on and, in fact, you know what I'd like to do? You can ask the questions – because of the nature of what we're going to talk about, it's pretty delicate, and for me to ask my wife these questions, I mean, this could get a little interesting. So – Bob: – well, I'm lookin' forward to this and, Barbara, by the way, welcome back to the broadcast. It's great to have you on the program. Barbara: You're welcome, it's good to be here. Bob: And, Dennis, I'm going to get right to it, because we're going to be talking over the next couple of days about how a wife views romance, and I think the thing that husbands want to know, the thing that kind of puzzles us in this whole deal is what is it that we can do that causes our wives to go, "Ahhhh." You know, just kind of look at us and melt. I mean, does that happen with a woman? Barbara: Well, I think it does, but I don't think it's necessarily a particular situation, because the things that are romantic to me aren't necessarily a situation or an act or a thing or a gift – all of those things communicate romance – but the particular situation isn't necessarily going to produce what you're talkin' about, which is what we've talked about a lot. You know what I think it is, I think it is the relationship that she has with her husband, and I have been reminded again, as I've been interacting with my family, and I have seen where I have come from and how desperately dysfunctional it was, and I'm thinking, "I am married to a man who has absolutely been a savior to me because of the love and acceptance and all that kind of stuff, and I have been attracted to him because I'm realizing what he's done for me relationally. So it's not like he thought, "I want to romance my wife, so I'm going to go buy her flowers, and so A+B=C, and this is the reaction and the response I'm going to get," although I think that's very romantic, and I love it when he does those kinds of things, because that communicates sacrifice, it communicates he cares about me, he's willing to go out of his way, he's willing to spend money that, you know, we may or may not have in the budget for that – those are all things that are very meaningful, but it may not necessarily produce the desired response. In other words, if he's doing it to produce the response, he is very often going to be disappointed. That's why I go back to the relationship – to me, it's the relationship that is ultimately going to fuel the romance. And so when you ask what I thought of, my thought was – was the day that we spent together in September, and he took a whole day off work just to spend it with me to do what I wanted to do. We worked in the yard, and we got in the car in the afternoon, we drove for four or five hours and just kinda took off, and we stopped when we wanted to, and we did what we wanted to. I mean, it was like, in a sense, being on a honeymoon or being in those early days of marriage when we didn't have any responsibilities, and that was more fun, but it was romantic in the sense that it was just the two of us, and we could do what we wanted, and we focused on each other, and we didn't have the demands and the – I mean – we had to come back to it, but, you know – just for however many hours it was, it was really a treat to have him all to myself and to have him say, "I will do whatever you want to do," and we talked all day long. It was wonderful. It wasn't romantic in the typical sense of sweep her off her feet, carry her to the castle, and they lived happily ever after. Bob: You know, as you said, the A+B+C, I thought – men want it to be algebra. Barbara: That's right. Dennis: They do, and therein lies the frustration as well as the intrigue. Bob: And women don't want it to be algebra. It's gotta be – Dennis: – no, they don't want a book. Barbara: But they don't want to be figured out. See, I don't think women want to be figured out, because if they feel like they're figured out, then they feel like they're controlled and they're had, and they don't want to be figured out. I think they want him to love her and be willing to pursue her and to continue to know who she is, because she's not that simple. I think women don't want to feel like they're that easy to figure out and, "Oh, he's got me pegged," and A+B+=C, and it's going to always work that way. I think she wants to be more complex and more intriguing and more – Dennis: – of a challenge. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Because if the man goes A+B=C, and he knows that's the way it works, then she knows – Barbara: – that he'll do A+B=C every time, and that gets boring, and I think she would also begin to fear that she'd be taken advantage of and, see, women don't want to be taken advantage of, and I don't mean taken advantage of sexually. I mean to be taken advantage of in any way – just assuming on the relationship and therefore there's no more motivation to continue to pursue, there's no more motivation – because if you've got it figure out, then why work at it? Bob: So if a man says to himself, "I would like" – he's thinking, it's, you know, here it is Thursday, "I'd like a week from Friday to be a romantic evening together for me and my wife." What can I do to foster that? How can I create a romantic evening, something that will speak romance to her? You're saying "Good luck, buster." Barbara: No, I don't think it's that hopeless. I think that a man can make some plans. I think he can make dinner reservations. I think he can bring her flowers. I think he can do some things that are creative that will communicate to her that she's special, she's unique – "I love you, I'm willing to sacrifice for you." But he needs to do it without the expectation of whatever it is his purpose is, because – see, the verse that I go back to all the time, as we've had these talks through the years – is I go back to the verse that says, "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church." And Christ gave himself up for the church. He denied Himself, and I think when a woman sees that her husband is denying himself for her, she responds to that, just as the church then responds to Christ, and I think she sees that sacrifice, and she understands that it's because of love. But when a woman sees a husband doing that for what appears to her to be his own personal need, then she feels somewhat manipulated or somewhat controlled or less valued. Dennis: Used. Barbara: Used – I mean, I think it complicates things, because I think that her ultimate need is to be loved as Christ loved the church and be loved unconditionally, and I think when she feels that, then she understands that commitment and that trust, then she can respond to her husband as he wants her to and as he needs her to, but it's just not as easy as bring home flowers and light the candles and have a dinner and A+B=C. Bob: But I'm not even talking about her responding to his need necessarily. I'm saying – let's say a husband with the purest of motives says, "I want you to feel special next Friday night, so I'm going to get the sitter, I'm going to take you out to dinner," and he's out with her, and it's just not happening for her – for whatever reason, she doesn't feel special, she doesn't feel warm toward him. Maybe it's been a bad week. Well, the husband is sittin' there goin', "This was a waste of time and money, because she doesn't feel special. What do I do now? I tried the babysitter and the dinner thing, and that doesn't work." Barbara: Well, it may not work because of the circumstances but, see, he needs to understand his role is to continue to pursue his wife, and he may need to say to her, "I'm sorry this didn't work out. I just want you to know I love you, anyway, and this may not have been good timing on my part" or whatever, but I think that part of the challenge for a husband is to understand his wife and understand what communicates love to her and figure that out and then do that. Dennis: And if what communicates love to her is surprise, then that may be what you've got to heighten in that situation. I mean, just setting down and spending some time – having fun over nothing of any significance but just spending time together and maybe talking as we play a game. Barbara: Well, the reason that is helpful for us is because we sort of exit the world of reality in a sense and so often it's the pressures of real life and all the responsibility that we feel, especially as parents, it's such an ongoing thing, and I think that suppresses a relationship. It suppresses romance, it suppresses interest in one another in doing something that is frivolous. And I think "frivolous" is a good word that needs to be involved in the discussion of romance, because it's often the frivolous things, which we think of, naturally, as flowers and candy and dinners, but it could be something like taking an hour in the evening, when you really need to be doing the laundry, or you really need to be doing something else, and the two of you sit down and play a game of spades or something. So I don't think it has to be expensive, it doesn't have to be planned out necessarily. It can be impulsive. Dennis: It's those things that we did when we dated, and a lot of things we did when we dated were dumb things. Barbara: Well, and they didn't cost much because most of us didn't have money when we dated – so a lot of times we did things like picnics. You and I did that a lot. Dennis: And I think what happens when you get married is you fall into a rut, and you stop pursuing your spouse – men do – they think they've got her all figured out, and that insults the wife when she begins to feel like it is A+B=C, and then what he's gotta do is, he's got to pull back and go, "Now, wait a second, how can I court my wife?" And even I find it's interesting, when Bob asked you what's the most romantic thing I've done recently in our marriage that you would pick a day where there was no – what I would call "enchanted moment" – of carrying her off to the castle. It was a day of relationship and a time of friendship – Barbara: – and it was focused on me and what I enjoy, and that might not be what you would enjoy, and that's what made it – that's what made it special, because that might not have been what you would have picked, but that communicated to me that you were willing to deny yourself and to do whatever I wanted, and that speaks volumes. Dennis: What would you say to the husband who doesn't understand his wife? He's not a good student. He perhaps has heard 1 Peter 3:7 – "Husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way," and yet, let's say, he's been married six to 10 years, and he still hasn't gotten it. Barbara: Well, I think it's okay. I really think that it is a long, lifetime process, and I – Dennis: – I'm glad you said that, because I haven't gotten it in (inaudible) – [crosstalk] Barbara: – well, I just think – you know, I just think that you and I, in our marriage, have continued to discover things about each other, and we've been married over 20 years now, and I feel that way, and I know you have felt that way, and I think it's just a lifetime process that God has us on of getting to know each other and, as we're changing, we're going to find out new things about each other. So I would just encourage husbands to not give up and not lose heart and instead be encouraged by the challenge, because you wouldn't want to marry somebody, really, if it came right down to it, if you could figure her out that quickly. I mean, I would think that a man would want – that that would be a challenge to him, to his manhood, to think, "You know, there's a lot about this woman that I don't know, and I've got years ahead to figure it out and, God, help me do this." Bob: Well, and you've hit on a big thing, because it is a challenge to his manhood, and if he's going for long periods of time feeling like, "I'm not winning at this," he's feeling like less of a man if his wife is not responding to anything that he is doing to try to spark romance and, again, we're not just talking about how he views romance, but he's just trying to make her feel warm and appreciated and affectionate. Barbara: Mm-hm. Bob: And he doesn't seem to be getting it, and he goes, "This is a challenge to my manhood. What's wrong with me?" Barbara: I think part of it is understanding that a woman is not going to be easy to understand, and I think he needs to pursue her and say, "What can I do to let you know that I love you? What communicates love to you?" And that's a question that Dennis has asked me lots of times and sometimes I don't even want to talk about it, which isn't very nice, I suppose, but I think that's a good question for husbands to ask their wives -- what communicates love to you? What is it? And she may not have an answer right off the top of her head. She probably hasn't had time to think about it, but that communicates that he is interested in meeting her where she is with her needs, and I think that will begin to open up some dialog, it will begin to communicate to her that he really cares about her, and he's interested in her, and that's how you gain understanding – is by talking and asking and pursuing and spending time together, and it isn't going to come real easy. It's going to take some time, though. Dennis: And there's another side to that question, too, that you've taught me – because sometimes what communicates love to you, you may not feel loved as a result of what I've done, and that's a tremendous puzzle to us, as men. Bob: I'm not following – what are you talking about? Dennis: Well, I think, as men, we find out what communicates love to our wives as we create this checklist again – A+B=C. Barbara: Again – yeah, right. Dennis: And we're doing the things where she should feel loved, and the reason she's not feeling loved is because she senses we're pushin' the buttons, and our heart's not in it. Am I saying that right, honey? Barbara: Well, I think that's right. I think anytime she feels like she's been figured out, you've had it. That sounds awful, it really does. Bob: But it's true, isn't it? Barbara: Well, I really do think it's true, I really do, and it's not that she doesn't want those things done again. It's not that you bring her flowers two or three times, and she loves it, and then, all of a sudden, she feels like she's been pegged, and she doesn't ever want be gettin' it for the rest of her life, but I think that there needs to be variety, there needs to be creativity. She needs to feel like he's thinking about her in different ways at different times and not just the same old prescribed pattern. Bob: It sounds like there is an inherent distrust of men by women that you're always suspicious of our motives. Barbara: Well, it may be, I don't know. Bob: Well, maybe – Dennis: – I think there is. Barbara: Well, I don't know that you can say that about all women. That's why I said there may be. I think that, for sure, there is an inherent distrust in very many women today. There have been too many abuses, whether it's happened to a particular woman or she's just heard about it. There have just been too many stories, too many actual things that have happened for women not to be just a little bit skeptical. Now, I don't want to say that's true across the board, and I think there's varying degrees of mistrust, but I do think that is an element in many, many women's thinking. So I do think that is true in many cases. Bob: Well, if you feel secure in terms of Dennis's commitment to you, right, that's unquestioned. You know he is committed to you. Barbara: That's right. Bob: Is trust still an issue? Barbara: Well, see, I think that the commitment has to be tested. See, I think women – it's like – years ago I remember Dennis sayin', you know, that he loved me. I'd say, "Well, I know you do, but you're supposed to. You're my husband." You know, and it's almost like we begin to feel, after a while, that he has to say these things or he has to do these things because he's stuck with you. So, in a sense, I think a woman wants to say, "Okay, I know you're committed to me, but are you glad you're committed to me? Would you do this again?" Dennis: Prove it. Barbara: Yeah, I mean, do you really love me? I mean, you say you do, but do you really love me? I think it needs to be – I think, as she grows older and her life changes, there are so many issues that she continually faces as her life changes, that she needs to see, again and again, from her husband, "Yes, I'm committed to you; yes, I would marry you all over again; yes, I love you," and then he needs to demonstrate that in different ways. So, yes, I know Dennis is committed to me, but I have needed for him to prove that to me in many different ways at many different times. And on the issue of trust, I think that is a parallel issue with commitment. Yes, I trust him, but I've needed to see that he is worthy of trusting – that I can trust him with my life. And I believed that at the beginning, when we first got married, but just as I've had to sort of test out the commitment through the years, I've sort of had to test out that trust factor, too, if that makes sense. Bob: Yeah, you know, Dennis, it sounds like one of the things Barbara is saying here is that there will be seasons in a marriage, where, in spite of the awareness of the commitment, you know that you know that your husband is committed, but you feel like he's committed out of duty or obligation, not because he really wants to be committed to you, and those can be difficult seasons for romance. Dennis: Yeah, but what you gotta do is move on through those, and what a husband especially needs to know is that he needs to be communicating that he is worthy of his wife's trust, and he needs to communicate to her that he loves her for who she is, not for what she can do for him, and what a wife is really expressing during those times, at least what Barbara has communicated to me, is that she just needs to feel like I love her, Barbara Rainey, for who she is as a woman and just set her apart from all other women in the world. Bob: Well, on tomorrow's broadcast, more insight from your wife, Barbara, Dennis, on how men can understand a woman's view of romance, and I hope you can join us for that. Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music: "How To Handle A Woman") FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 4 of 8 Guest: Barbara Rainey From the Series: A Woman's View of Romance_____________________________________________________________ Bob: Welcome to FamilyLife Today. Today we're speaking frankly about how a woman views romance. (Music: "Love and Marriage") And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. We are beginning Week Number 2 of our look at Creating a More Romantic Marriage, and I just want to encourage folks, if you missed any of last week's programs, or if you're going to miss any of this week's programs, this is a series that husbands and wives ought to get and listen to together, and then they can talk, they can interact, about what they hear on the tapes. Dennis: You know, this subject of developing and cultivating romance in a marriage relationship is a discussion that is long overdue among Christian couples, because we ought to have among the most passionate relationships on the planet. Our God created romance in the first place. Bob: Well, we're going to talk on today's broadcast about how men and women view romance, and we've brought your wife, Barbara, back in the studio with us today. Barbara, welcome back to FamilyLife Today. Barbara: Thanks, good to be here. Bob: And one of the things that we want to do is look at research. Dennis: Right. Bob: You commissioned that be done at our FamilyLife Marriage Conferences across the country – we had a researcher who talked with women about how they view romance, how they view it primarily, is that right? Dennis: Actually, this Top 10 list of romantic acts came from both men and women. Bob: Well, let me go over the list, Barbara. I'm going to go from 10 to 1, and I'll read what people indicated expressed romance, and then I want to know, as a man, and I want to know how I can keep these ideas in front of me and sprinkle them into a relationship as a way to express romance – again, with no hidden agenda, no – not driving for anything. Number 10, hands are romantic; holding hands, particularly, is romantic for a woman. Do you like holding hands with Dennis? Barbara: Mm-hm. Bob: Why is that romantic for you? Barbara: I do it because it says, "I want to be close to you, and I like you, and you're my friend, and I want to be next to you." I mean, those are the kinds of things that communicates to me, and that's the reason that I initiate it, and I think that's probably the same for him, too. So I think it's the closeness that it communicates. Bob: Okay, how about Number 9, which is massaging one another – rubbing the neck. Do you like when Dennis reaches over and rubs the back of your neck? Dennis, massage oftentimes will have a sexual connotation, and some women may pull back from liking massage because they think it's just foreplay. Dennis: Right. Barbara: Exactly. I think that's right. Bob: So if it's non-sexual massage where it's just – "Let me rub your back, and you can fall asleep," then that's okay? Barbara: Oh, I think so, yeah. Bob: Number 8 on the list is serving – serving the other person – common courtesies – opening the door, holding a chair out for somebody, doing little acts of sacrifice. Is that romantic for a woman? Barbara: To me, I don't think of that as being as romantic, if I had to define them, as, say, holding hands but, again, I think it's important to do. I think it says "I am denying myself for you. I am going to serve you," and I think that anytime a husband can serve his wife sacrificially and do something for her, he's communicating to her that he cares about her and that he loves her and she's special, and he wants to make her feel special. Bob: Okay. Dennis: Let me make a comment on this next one – number 7 – because this made this spot in the combined list – 75 percent of the men picked this item as number 1 of what was most romantic. So this, again, kind of lets you know the men viewed this substantially heavier and weightier than the women did because, together, it became number 7. Bob: So men had it at number 1, women – Barbara: Someone must have had it a lot lower for the average to be seven. Dennis: It must have been a lot lower. Bob: And number 7 is a kiss – an unexpected kiss, a nibble on the back of the neck, or just kissing each other. Dennis: Now, why do you think, Barbara, the women would have ranked that so much differently than the men? Barbara: Because I think it probably, if the truth be known, they might have felt that he had another motive, and I just wonder if some of the women were feeling suspicious. I think some of these other things might be able to be seen as an individual fact or as an individual gesture – Bob: – so if he opens the door, she doesn't feel he's up to something, but if he kisses her, she wonders what's goin' on in the back of his mind. Barbara: She might go, "Okay"—yeah, right – "I wonder what he's thinkin'?" Dennis: And the rest of this list, really, if you look at it, with the exception of this and the massage – really, are statements of a relationship and women view romance through the eyes of a relationship. They want to be loved, known – Barbara: – understood – Dennis: – there ya go – Barbara: – accepted, valued, appreciated – Dennis: – she knows the words – why did I even try, huh? Barbara: Well, you did a good job. Bob: It just wasn't complete. All right, number 10 was holding hands; number 9, massage; number 8 serving one another, opening doors, common courtesies; number 7, kissing; number 6 was walking. Now, there's a romantic 30 minutes – we went on a walk together – that's romantic for women? Barbara: Well, it's very relational. I think if you go for a walk, chances are you're going to go for a walk away from daily responsibilities – away from the telephone, away from the television, away from the children, away from work, away from whatever – and it allows you to focus on the relationship without having to sit on a couch and look at each other eye-to-eye and be relational, which is sometimes very threatening. Dennis: And I think the reason why most men would respond just as you did, Bob, is because of what Barbara just said – it's not sexual. When we think of what's romantic to us, and we really evaluate it, we would not put walking at the top of the list. Bob: We're going to talk about this next week – but it is interesting, because I hear you saying in this – part of what speaks romance to a woman is "Get me outta here." In the day-to-day of life with all of the kids and with all of the responsibilities – get me away from this for a little while, and that will be so refreshing to me, it will speak volumes. That's at least a part of it, and then – have a relationship with me. Barbara: I think that's part of it, mm-hm. Bob: All right, number 5 on the list – something written – written notes or letters or poems or cards or notes on the bathroom mirror or just some written remind of affection – is that romantic? Barbara: Mm-hm, I think it is. In fact, I found this note, and I don't know how old it was, but Dennis had taped a note in the bathroom, and it said, "Have you found all the little notes around that say how much I love you?" It was just fun to see that and read it again, and I thought, "You know, that's still true," and I don't know what the notes all were, but it was fun to see that. Bob: As you said that, I was thinking it was years ago – I don't know how many years ago – but one night Mary Ann had gone to bed, she was exhausted, and I sat up, and I wrote a half a dozen of the notes, and I scattered them around the house in places where it might be weeks before she would find them, and one of them was in a recipe folder that she had for chicken dishes, and I just put it in there figuring, you know, it could be six months from now, but she'll find it, it will be a surprise. Well, five, 10 years later, it's still in the same – every time I'm goin' through there, I go – Dennis: – has she never seen it? Bob: Oh, she's seen it. Barbara: She's probably seen it and left it there. Bob: But she's never thrown it away, and I keep – you know – why don't you throw this thing away? I mean, it's old, it's on old stationery. All right, let me read through the list here again – number 10, hands; number 9, massage; number 8, serving one another; number 7, kiss; number 6, walking; number 5, something written; number 4, going out on a day – time away – dates with no kids, dinner out, a weekend at a bed and breakfast – just time alone together on dates. Is that romantic? Barbara: Yeah, mm-hm. I think, for the same reason again, I think a wife feels that she is the focus of her husband's attention when she knows that he's doing this for her. Bob: You two have made that a regular part of your relationship. There is, as often as you're able, on a weekly basis, you have a date. Does that make it less special? Barbara: No. Bob: It's routine? Barbara: Huh-uh, not at all. Bob: You look forward to Sunday night date night, even if it's every week? Barbara: Yeah, I look forward to that moreso now than when we tried doing this when our kids were young. We tried doing it when our children were young, and it was hard to do it, because it was hard to get babysitters, and it was hard to get away, and in those years, it was easier for us to spend time together at home because the kids all went to bed at 7:30 or 8, and we had two hours, at least, every evening. Well, now that our children are older, it's really tough to get two seconds alone at home. Dennis: Right, but when the kids were little, one of the ways we solved the problem of babysitters was we would go ahead and put the kids to bed, and then I would prepare the meal and would give Barbara 30, 45 minutes to run about doing her duties, and then I would take the meal upstairs to our bedroom and had a table at the foot of our bed that I put a nice tablecloth on and with the good plates and the napkins and the good silverware and had a beautiful candlelight dinner there, and when the meal was over, you didn't have to go anywhere and, frankly, we have some great memories of those conversations because at the end of the evening there was nothing to change the mood of the evening. We didn't have to go anywhere – we were there, and I took the dishes downstairs while she got ready for bed and cleaned up the kitchen so she didn't come back downstairs the next morning to a dirty kitchen. Bob: That really ties to number 3, which is meals. Number 4 is a date together; number 3 is having meals together – special meals, candlelight, quiet dinner alone, picnics, a breakfast out together – those kinds of events, but what is it about a picnic away or Dennis saying, "Let's go out and have breakfast, just the two of us." What is it about that that's romantic? Barbara: Well, I think it's the unexpected. The one that jumps off the list that you just read to me is picnic because that's one we've done so seldom, and that would be, to me, the most fun because that's one which is hardly ever done. So I think keeping variety in it is really a good idea, but there's a lot (inaudible) – [crosstalk] Bob: – make note of that. I'm just checkin' to see if you're makin' notes here. Barbara: He knows. We've talked about it. It's just hard to pull off. Bob: All right, number 2 is touch, and with this we're not talking about sexual touch, we're talking about holding or hugs or cuddling or affection in public and yet, even as I say that, I think, for a lot of women, being touched may always feel sexual to them. They may, like with a kiss or with a massage, wonder what's really behind this, mightn't they? Barbara: Well, I think so, but I think that's where a husband needs to know his wife, and he needs to ask her questions, he needs to seek to understand who she is and where she's coming from and why she feels the way she does and how she will respond to different things, because it may be that she will feel somewhat suspicious with physical touch. And so he may need to assure her – "I just want to hug you because I love you – no strings attached, I'm just committed to you, and that's all I want you to know" – or something that helps her understand his meaning or his intent behind it, because I do think that, just like with holding hands, it communicates closeness, it communicates "I like you." I think hugs and other kinds of affection that's non-sexual affection sends the same message. It communicates I like you and I want to be close to you, and I think you're a neat person. Dennis: Yeah, one of the best-sellers at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference is Ed Wheat's book, "Love Life For Every Married Couple," and it's a book about romance, and when I first read this a number of years ago, I kind of laughed that he would need to take three pages in the book to give married couples exercises for learning how to touch one another. But on page 184 through 186 he has 25 suggestions for touching, and I'll just read a couple of these, because they're really quite instructive, I think. "Number 1 – when dating, young people can scarcely be kept apart. Most married couples have forgotten how much fun physical closeness can be. So set aside practice times at night, at least once a week, to learn the delights of non-sexual body caressing." At this point, in our marriage conference, when I read this, all the engaged people fall out of their chairs laughing. The married people aren't laughing. They're goin' "That's a good idea." "Number 2 – show each other where you like to be touched and the kind of touch that really pleases you. Usually a light touch is the most thrilling. Be imaginative in the way you caress." You know, I think he's onto something here to give us some practical thoughts about how to re-ignite exploration through tender touching of one another's bodies. I think when we get married the familiarity with one another causes the loss of the intrigue, the exploration, and the excitement, and I think Dr. Wheat does a great job of giving us some practical projects that couples, I think, will find exciting. Bob: I've got to imagine there are some men who are saying, "This sounds to me like a contradiction in terms – non-sexual touching. I can do that, sure, but in the back of my mind, touching is, for me, sexually stimulating. Whether it's holding hands, whether it's putting my arm around my wife, whether it's re-imagining the things we did on dates – that has a sexual dimension and for me not to have the sexual dimension fulfilled is a sacrifice on my part." Dennis: That's the point. I think to have those feelings is normal. To deny that you have those feelings is not healthy. I think it's okay to experience attraction, arousal, at that point. I think what our wives are looking for is such a premium, such a value placed upon the relationship and who she is, that we are willing to set aside those desires and not take that touch toward what we, as men, would know would be the intended objective. Bob: I remember the Ann Landers survey, you know, where they said, "Would you rather have sexual relations with your husband or just cuddle with him?" And women, in droves, said, "I'd rather just cuddle with him," and I thought, "Do the women understand that cuddling with him is stimulating sexually?" And that's the reason that it often goes on to sexual relations, because he's responding to what's going on inside of him, and you're saying he needs to put that to death from time to time. Dennis: That's right – and not allow his mind to continue on. He needs to build some limits that really communicate to his wife that "I'm willing to set aside my desires for you." Barbara: Yeah, and I was just thinking, as you were saying about the survey that I think probably the reason a lot of women feel that way is they probably weren't loved and cuddled as children by their parents, and they missed that, and they have this deep longing to know that they are loved, and they want that from their husband, and if all they get from their husband is sexual initiation or sexual touching or cuddling, then they think, "Gosh, he doesn't really love me, he just needs me," or "He just wants me for his own pleasure, his own need," and so I think that's, again, another cue for a man to say, "I need to understand my wife. I need to understand why she needs non-sexual affection," and I think we all need affection, because we need to know that we're valued as people, and that's a way to communicate that. But I think that, for a husband, he needs to say, "Okay, why does she feel this way? Why does my wife need non-sexual affection?" And he needs to ask her, and they need to talk that through, and he needs to be willing to give it to her with no strings attached. Bob: Mm-hm, okay, top 10 again – Number 10, holding hands; number 9, massage; number 8, serving one another; number 7, a kiss; number 6, walking together; number 5, written love notes to one another; number 4, going out on dates; number 3, having meals together; number 2 is non-sexual touching – Dennis: – and number 1 is not diamonds. Bob: Number 1, the most romantic act, according to respondents at the FamilyLife Marriage Conference – do you want to say what it was? Dennis: Go ahead. Bob: It's flowers – delivered, hand-picked, bringing them home – a single rose – it doesn't seem to matter. I'll never forget being at a FamilyLife Marriage Conference where I was speaking, and I got – we were all waiting for the elevator, a whole group of us waiting for the elevator, and when the elevator car came, here came the guy holding a dozen roses, and he walked off – he was the flower delivery guy – and every woman at the elevator turned to watch, to see which room in the hotel he was going to, and they watched, and they watched – nobody got on the elevator, they just watched. Barbara: How funny. Bob: And finally, he went down the hall and finally he stopped at a room and as soon as he did, all these women kind of turned at their husband and glared at him, like, "That wasn't our room. How come you didn't get me flowers?" There is – what is it about flowers, Barbara? Barbara: Well, I think flowers say that you're special. I think it's the surprise that comes with flowers. I think it's because they're unexpected. I think because it's a frivolous thing, and I think it communicates love. I think it says lots of things to a woman about love and about her being a special person, a valued person, an appreciated person – that her husband is willing to do that for her. Bob: When Dennis brings home flowers do you immediately stop and think, "What's he up to?" Barbara: I don't think I have. I really don't think I have. Bob: So we go through this top 10 list as men – we look at all of the non-sexual things that are on the list, and we say, "Are you sayin' I just need to keep doin' these over and over again, mixing 'em in, a little bit here, a little bit there, and expect nothing in return?" Barbara: Yeah, but I think husbands need to ask the Lord to help them be creative and ask the Lord to help them think of their wives and ask God to help them understand and pursue, because it isn't – again, as we've talked about a formula several different times – but I think that the idea is that a woman wants to feel special and valued and appreciated and all of those words I've been using, and I think she needs to feel that from her husband in different ways at different times and unique opportunities. Bob: You know, this is going to sound redundant, but just listening to all of this, I thought romance was supposed to be fun, and it this doesn't sound like as much fun as I had hoped it would be. Dennis: But I think it is fun. I think it is fun to find out what communicates romance to my wife. Barbara: And it may not be fun in the way you've always defined fun, because I've learned to enjoy a lot of things through the years of being married to Dennis, because he has introduced me to things that I would have never done on my own and, likewise, he has learned to enjoy things that he would have never done if it weren't for me. So I think we need to be willing to have our definition of fun broadened, because it will be fun, but it may be fun in a different way than what you're thinking and be willing to try something new. You may like it. Bob: Well, I just want to say thanks. Can I thank your wife for being on the broadcast with us? Dennis: Only after I do – honey, thanks for sharing your heart and being real for women, so – well – a lot of men can better understand how to communicate love and romance to their wives. Bob: Yeah, and thanks for the insight I've gotten over the last three days of the broadcast on how women view romance. Well, on tomorrow's broadcast we're going to talk to – I don't know how to describe him – you described him as the "Michael Jordan of romance," right? Dennis: Whatever you do, every man needs to listen to tomorrow. You think you are a romantic husband – do not miss tomorrow, because you're going to be blown away by the guy we have the opportunity to talk to tomorrow. Bob: I hope you can be here for it. Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host Dennis Rainey, and I'm – Dennis: – would you agree, Bob? Bob: I would agree, absolutely. Dennis: All right, okay. Bob: I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music: "Love and Marriage") FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. 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What do you use to treat lows on the go? One of the newest options is a flexible necklace, filled with 15 grams of fast-acting glucose. The Thrive Glucose Gel Medical Alert Necklace is easy to take with you, rip off and open if you need it. The idea came to first responder Kris Maynard after his own severe low had to be treated by paramedics. His family had tried to use the "red box" emergency glucagon kit but missed a vital step. More about Thrive Necklace from Glucose Revival Kris also shares that one of his teen sons has been diagnosed with type 1 via TrialNet and explains how their family is coping with that knowledge. Listen to our first episode with Kris when the necklace was a prototype in 2018 Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! New segment this week! Innovations – focusing on hacks and tips and tricks to make our lives easier. Happy Bob App on Facebook And Tell Me Something Good! Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone Click here for Android Episode Transcription Stacey Simms 0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes by Real Good Foods, real food you feel good about eating and by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom. Announcer 0:20 This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms Stacey Simms 0:26 this week, what do you use to treat those on the go? One of the newest options is inside a necklace. The idea came to first responder Kris Maynard, after his own low had to be treated by paramedics because his son didn't know how to mix up the glucagon correctly. Kris Maynard 0:44 Why am I not carrying this for something that we know that works, and as an EMT, for 100% of the calls that I've been on for low blood sugar 100% of the responses have always been glucagon is just too much and it expires, Stacey Simms 1:00 we'll talk about Kris's solution, the thrive necklace, and his son recently was diagnosed with type one. He shares that story new segment this week innovations, focusing on hacks, tips and tricks to make our lives easier and tell me something good. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of the show. I am so glad to have you on. You know, we aim to educate and inspire about type 1 diabetes by sharing stories of connection. I am your host Stacey Simms. My son was diagnosed with type one right before he turned two back in 2006. My husband lives with type two diabetes. I don't have diabetes. I have a background in broadcasting and radio and TV news. And that's how you get the podcast. Quick birthday shout out to my mom. If you are listening today. This goes live on September 1. It's My mom's birthday. And she had a great line recently that I wanted to share with you. I was talking about how amazed I was with control IQ. We traveled back and forth from New Orleans recently to drop my daughter off at college. And Benny came with us. We rented an RV. I told this whole story last week, but it was basically you know, 11-12 hours in the car there. Same thing on the way home. And if you've done a long trip of any kind, you probably know that you need to raise your basal rates. We have done lots and lots of car trips. My parents are in Florida, we're in North Carolina, they spent the summer in Delaware. So we're all over the place. Except, you know, in the times of COVID, where we haven't traveled at all this was our first trip. Gosh, since everything started since March, probably but we've always had to raise Benny's bazel rates at least 50% that may seem like a lot, but he's very active kid and you know, sitting still, we really needed to increase basal rates by quite a bit over the years. And of course now with control IQ, we don't change them at all and it does all of the work for us. I was absolutely amazed. For the two days that we were on the road. I only grabbed a screenshot of our trip there. I didn't look on the way home. But he was 84% in range for that time with an average glucose of 139, which I will take hands down any day, which it would translate, I guess to a one see if like 6.4 or 6.5. I mean, it's only two days. But that's if you're if that's how you look at the numbers, that's what you would get. Now, of course, when we got to the hotel, he fell asleep and didn't have insulin and his pump. He wasn't in my room. He was in my husband's room, so I'll blame them for that. I wait a minute. I know that. Nope. We got two hotel rooms. So I stayed with my daughter. My husband stayed with Benny and it was kind of nice to just have it was two days that we stayed there and it was really nice just to have some time alone with my daughter. But yeah, that's that sounded weird about the separate hotel rooms. So that 84% range didn't last for another 24 hours but it was pretty close. I mean control IQ once you put insulin in the pump control Q does some incredibly heavy lifting for us. I was telling my mom about this, he was texting her about how great it was going. And she said, quote, sh—y disease, great technology. And I said to her, you know, I'm gonna send that to Tandem, because I'm sure they'd want to use that slogan. Anyway, thanks, Mom and Happy birthday to you. We have a lot to cover. This week, I've added a new segment called innovations which will be coming up after the interview. So let's get to it. Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop, and One Drop is diabetes management for the 21st century. One Drop was designed by people with diabetes for people with diabetes. One Drops glucose meter looks nothing like a medical device. It's sleek, compact, and seamlessly integrates with the award winning One Drop mobile app, sync all your other health apps to one drug to keep track of the big picture and easily see health trends. And with a One Drop subscription you get unlimited test strips and lancets delivered right to your door. Every one drug plan also includes access to your own certified diabetes coach have questions but don't feel like waiting for your next doc Visit your personal coaches always there to help go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the One Drop logo. I met Kris Maynard more than two years ago, it was July of 2018. We did an interview on the floor of the friends for life vendor area. I mean, you know what I mean? on the floor of the vendor area, that big open area, we were sitting at a table, but doing the interview various how I realized my microphones were not meant to be held. I will link back to that first interview, and you will hear a lot of that (microphone noise). That's why I bought microphones standards. But Kris Maynard's product that he brought to friends for life in 2018 was the prototype for what's become the Thrive Glucose Gel Medical Alert Necklace. He was there to get feedback, see if there was a need for the product. Kris is a first responder who lives with type one. At that same conference. His family went through trial on that testing. One of his teenage sons was found to have the markers for T1D, we've got a lot to talk about with Kris Maynard. Kris, thanks for coming on with me. It's great to talk to you again. I can't believe it's been two years. How are you? Kris Maynard 6:11 I'm doing good. It's I'm excited to be here. Stacey Simms 6:14 So much has changed. And I want to talk about not only your product and your family, there's a significant change there as well. But you caught my attention recently, because it looked like you were on Mount St. Helens. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've been doing? Kris Maynard 6:29 Yeah, well, it's something I've always wanted to do. I mean, it's really a way that I really wanted to be at a test or product. And I've learned over the last couple years, how much I love diabetics. I love being around other people that's living with the disease. So I wanted to be able to just challenge other diabetics to join us into making that hike. And I mean, it was something that physically was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. But at the end of the day play it was so enjoyable. absolutely loved it. How long Stacey Simms 7:01 was it? Kris Maynard 7:02 round trip? It was a total of about nine to 10 hours. Stacey Simms 7:06 Now pardon my ignorance, but when I think of Mount St. Helens I only think of I think like so many people. I think of it as a an active volcano. Kris Maynard 7:15 Yeah, yeah. Okay, just make sure I'm not wrong. No, you're exactly right. 40 years ago is when it exploded here in Washington State. And we live about five hours away from it, and it just covered our city with ash. And so I was I don't remember five years old or so at the time. And I just remember wearing the masks really, of what we see being worn around today. Stacey Simms 7:41 I'm a child of the 80s I remember it's one of the the significant news events of my childhood like when they say what do you remember when you were a kid? You know, that's one of them. So living around the area, and again, pardon my ignorance, but people are allowed to climb now and you can go up there, there's no restrictions, Kris Maynard 7:56 correct. But you need permits to go there. We actually bought Tickets before co started because in April's when they start selling the permits, and those permits sell out within the first day or two. And so we got ours then to where they only allow 100 people to go up per day. And so it just happened to be that last week was our magical day. Stacey Simms 8:22 And you had a look at the pictures. You had young people, you had diabetes educators, was almost everybody in the group, part of the diabetes community. Kris Maynard 8:30 Yes, well, the most encouraging thing to me was two things is one person during the first mile was ready to call it a day. It was just too complicated in that first mile, and we'd kind of just gathered around and saw where she was struggling and she continued on was able to finish it, which was amazing in itself because when we look back, that first mile was 100 times easier than the rest and then 13 year old who's got type one. And I just physically think how hard and how exhausting it was for me. And to think that that 13 year old, was able to do it, because he had his struggles along the way as well. But for him to be able to enjoy that with his dad was just, I mean, encouraging and motivating. For the rest of us. It was amazing that he was able to finalize that exhaustive day. Stacey Simms 9:29 Did anybody need the thrive necklace, Kris Maynard 9:32 three people used it. In fact, the 13 year old ran out of supplies. That was the last thing that he had on the way back in about two and a half miles left, which was amazing because the cell service on that mountain was better there. And sometimes in the some houses or buildings that we go in and out. So he texts me saying, Hey, we just ran out of supplies. I'm worried for my son. Who just ran out of his food, his drinks and everything else. And so he said he just used the necklace. I don't know what his number was, but and then afterwards, he said it bounced back up to 157. But there was also other problems that he was also going through between the cramps running out of water. So it really wasn't about the necklace. It was being with other diabetics making that climb. Stacey Simms 10:28 Well, yeah, and I guess that's a good point. It's a good place to run out of supplies. If you're surrounded by people who also have their own. I assume that they shared with him or he got down. Kris Maynard 10:37 But I mean, by that time, we were separated, we were actually done. And so I we had to drive back to the finish line. And a friend of mine that was with me, I couldn't make the trek back because my legs were just cramped up and stiffened up and the buddy of mine who's in better shape, ran that last two miles to be able to get supplies. So, the buddy was amazing. He was the former firefighter. And another person was able to call 911, just in case, and then to see him walk that finish line to where you wouldn't have noticed that he was tired at all, or that his legs were stepped up at all. So yeah, I mean, it was fun to be able to embrace at the end and just cheer him on. And that's really beyond seeing him at the top of the mountain and then seeing him finish no one the struggles that he went through. Stacey Simms 11:30 Alright, let's talk about the thrive medical alert necklace. Give me your elevator speech. What is this? Yeah, Kris Maynard 11:37 well, it's funny because when I saw it a couple years ago, at the friends for life conference, really still at that point, it was just an idea. And we needed to figure out if it was something that was wanted or needed on the market that kind of helped formulate along with messaging that we're going through with other diabetics on now we need to make something out of it. And so learning that 80% of the diabetics Don't carry glucagon. And from the EMTs perspective 75% of the EMTs cannot administer glucagon can't give injections or can't give IVs. And so I look at it from the EMT side and from the diabetes side. So really the elevator pitch for us is we have the only wearable product to be able to help with the most common issue that diabetics face which is low blood sugar by using what EMTs use, being able to use it for any level of low blood sugar from a low to a severe state. Stacey Simms 12:35 No, let me just clarify that because I've always confused when I hear that one of the EMTs do how do they treat low blood sugar if they come across someone who needs that kind of help? Kris Maynard 12:44 Well, I'll take you from a time that I was unconscious camping with my kids is that they take the glucose gel, bring it and rub it on their finger and just massage it on the gums to become absorbed. And it was funny because that But it happened to me. I've administered it many times throughout my career, but I just never thought of carrying it myself because we always had glucagon. Well, that time that the ambulance was called for me, my son administered the glucagon for me called 911. What I thought that he knew was how to properly put it together. He didn't mix the two together. And so that was our failure on teaching him. But that's when I thought, why am I not carrying this for something that we know that works, and as an EMT, for 100% of the calls that I've been on for a low blood sugar 100% of the responses have always been glucagon is just too much and it expires. And so at that point, we're just thinking of a cheaper alternative that's really easier to find. Stacey Simms 13:53 So what was the reaction when you went from idea to product because when I last talked to you, we're not shipping as He said this was something more of a concept. What was the reaction? Right back to Kris. 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Now back to Kris and he is answering my question about the first reaction he got to the thrive necklace. Kris Maynard 15:14 overwhelming. Because again, I was thinking and an idea that day worked for me. And that's really where it was going to go to until my endocrinologist came back and said, You ought to make that available to all diabetics because you don't know how many or who you can help. And so that's when we took it to friends for life after that, and then seeing the reactions of people touching it. There was fun to see, in really all of this. The most exciting thing for me is being able to meet diabetics because before I went to that conference, there was only one other diabetic at that point that I've ever met or known. And now since then, I've met thousands. Each one of them. I get excited to meet because I love hearing their stories. I love seeing what works for them. And I love being able to share how we can help them as well. Stacey Simms 16:07 So tell me what the necklace actually is. Can you describe it because obviously, this is a podcast, we're not looking at it, although I will link up the website so people can see what it is, Kris Maynard 16:15 yeah, thrive glucose aid. It's implemented as a medical alert necklace. And as it's pulled off, I mean, it's held on by magnetic connectors. So it can really I just say rip it off, and then it becomes uncapped, like a toothpaste container. And it's just squeezed out. And you can put the tube right onto the gums, if that's the state that the diabetic needs to be able to get the help. Or I can just take it off and put it in my mouth and really just squeeze it out myself to just get my blood sugar back up. Stacey Simms 16:48 And when you say it's also medical alert, it's got the medallion on it. Tell me about that. Kris Maynard 16:52 Well, I went through a two year process, we put the blue circle on it as the symbol of diabetes because I wanted people to be Got to recognize it knowing that this is for diabetics to be able to help diabetics. And I mean, it took me two years to be able to get permission to be able to use that from the International diabetes Federation to whereas on the backside, is where it says type one diabetes or diabetes, so that again, it signifies if an EMT or someone looks at it, if they don't recognize the blue circle, they can see that it is a person with diabetes. Stacey Simms 17:26 I know you've heard this, so it's not criticism. But what do you say to people who tell you? Look, Kris, this is great, but I can just throw some Smarties in my pocket. Or, you know, I've got the icing with me, what do I need this for? I wouldn't argue with that at all. Kris Maynard 17:43 Because I mean, when I learned that only 58% of diabetics carry something to treat with hypose that concerns me that concerns me that 80% of the people don't carry glucagon. So it's that 80% that I'm scared for and I want to To help if people can eat something, or drink something, that's what I want them to do. Matter of fact, if they're conscious enough to be able to take something else, we don't want them to use the necklace because there's more cost effective alternatives. Matter of fact, with me, I carry a, like a eight ounce juice really wherever I go to where I'm saving the necklace for my wife, kids or someone else to where if I can't administer it to myself, they know where to find something. They don't need to go look in a duffel bag, a drawer, a car, wherever it might be. They know where to find it, they can rip it off and now administer it to me. Is it refillable? It is and that was another process through our FDA attorney from the get go she said it cannot be bought. Why is the question Stacey Simms 18:48 in the way I did you heard me like bracing. Can you kind of Yeah, because I remember it couldn't be at the time but Kris Maynard 18:53 yeah, it took about six months to be able to figure out that on being able to have them Make it refillable, because from the get go when we initially started about, we wanted it to be refillable to be more cost effective for the diabetic. So that was hurtful news when our FDA attorney told us that it cannot be and then once we figured out how to make it refillable, then we got back on track with what our goal was. Stacey Simms 19:22 So while back, you were making these available for healthcare providers, and now I see you're making them available for teachers. Yeah. Tell me about these campaigns. How did you decide to do this? Kris Maynard 19:34 It's funny because you give me the chills when I hear that the health care workers as soon as COVID started, I'm all about the diabetic from the business side. I don't look at it, unfortunately, and I hate to admit that I don't look at it from the business side. I've never looked at coming into this business trying to make money from it. When COVID started, I wanted to be able to provide a way to all diabetic healthcare workers so that they have something And just because at the time and still today, we didn't want them to have to worry about a low blood sugar at a time that they're working their tail ends off on to helping us in our country trying to get it back to a normal state. And so I mean, we ended up giving about $70,000 worth of product during about a four month period. And now as schools are starting to begin now our goal is because the lack of school nurses and and the ones who can actually help administer anything, because ours is FDA a food product. Now, teachers, principals, friends, family, anybody can help with this. If it's needed. They don't need to wait for the EMTs fire trucks ambulance crews to arrive. Now they can help administer what's within our necklace knowing that that's what EMTs are going to use anyways. Stacey Simms 20:57 Alright, so tell me the secret. How are you? able to afford all of this and how can we help? Kris Maynard 21:03 I still have my firefighting job. And so time if you can afford me more time, I would love it. Fortunately, we did get some good press out there. And we are able to match really one per one on what we gave away versus what we're selling. And if I can continue that match in one for one, I will do this for the rest of my life, being able to get this out there until there's something else out there that can do better. And I know there's other products. In fact, one product I just picked up and I've been in deep discussion with with xirrus because I think their company that's offering one of the best solutions for low blood sugar, or a severe unconscious with their new GE Volk auto injector. I absolutely love that product. I brought that with me when I climbed Mount St. Helens just so I can have Security so other people can have that security as well. I don't look as a business that I'm trying to compete with anyone. I just want to be able to provide something for anyone that wants to wear a wearable or to have a product to where they feel more comfortable with. And I compare it to some people like apples, some people like peaches, some people like great. And that's what we are. We're one of those. Stacey Simms 22:25 I love it. It's interesting when you're talking about xirrus and the G Volk hypo pen, you mentioned at the beginning of this, that your son didn't mix up the glucagon, the traditional that red emergency box right that glucagon correctly. And so many studies show that people do not do that correctly. I went to a training, it's probably four years ago now. And I'm, you know, I'm so well educated and every year I take out the old glucagon and mix it make sure I know what I'm doing. And the CDE laughed at me because he said I was holding it wrong. I had my thumb on the back of it. So I would have actually have pushed it too early, you have to throw it like oh, throw it you have to hold it like you're throwing a dart Do not throw your look. Yeah. So I was shocked that I would have been one of the many, many people who use it incorrectly. I kind of ask you, is your son okay about what happened? I mean, I know that you probably are fine. And you know, and you've got to reassure him, but after all this time is he is he's still upset about it. Kris Maynard 23:23 Oh, he wasn't upset about it that next day. Oh, great. He knew and I knew that it was an educational thing that I neglected on, leading to him. But I mean, at the end of the day, nothing happened. I was able to after I got the glucose in my mouth, everything was fine. And so fortunately, he was able to move up and move on with his day, the next day. Wow, Unknown Speaker 23:47 that's great, though. How's everybody doing? Now? You've got two sons. They're both just they're both off to college. Kris Maynard 23:53 Yes, one just moved out this last few weeks and the other ones getting ready to move in about three weeks. And the scary part from my end is the one that's moving across the country is expected to be a type one within the next two years. And that's really something that motivates me encourages me to try to get heavily involved with the diabetes side. There's a lot of things that I don't think being done enough for diabetes, and I want to make sure that I understand the full spectrum so that I can get him the help he needs. Because really, when I was young into my firefighter career, I lost my job for two years because of a low blood sugar. I want to make sure that that doesn't happen to him. And that doesn't happen to any other diabetics. Stacey Simms 24:41 When you say he's expected to become type one. I assume you've done trialnet correct. Wow. Tell me about that experience. Had you always taken the kids through or was it something you did that you tried newly Can you can you share a little bit about that? Kris Maynard 24:57 Yeah, the friends for life conference really changed. Many things about me personally, and for the rest of my life, because that conference to me taught me so much. And that's where we were introduced to trial net. And that's where we brought our kids to get tested, including my wife, she got tested as well. And that's where we found out our son had to have the indicators that he's going to be a type one at that point was within the next five years. Stacey Simms 25:24 Has he shown any signs? Is there anything that you have to do now? Or is it just something that you kind of monitor? Kris Maynard 25:29 No, it's something we monitor, and he could have gone through some trial testing. But we left it up to him to decide if he wants to partake in that. So really, what I do is I'll take my decks and have him wear it for a few days so I can monitor him to see if his numbers are elevated at all. And fortunately, he's a good sport about it. He still doesn't like to get poked or prodded at but fortunately he's had me to figure out the ups and downs with a diabetes. So he's up for, I almost think that he's an expert in it just as much. But getting him to really, as I say, play my game so I can monitor him and see how he's doing. So the scary part for me is when he goes to college, because now we're apart from him. And so we've been in great discussions with the school nursing program, so that I mean, I'm asking them to test his blood sugar every time that he comes in for a doctor's appointment, so that they know and he knows where he's at. Stacey Simms 26:35 Are you and your wife, glad that you went through trial net, knowing what you know now? Kris Maynard 26:40 Yes, whether it's good news or bad news, I always like the truth. That just helps us to be able to prepare and educate him in the process, because I'd hate to find out in two years from now, without knowing that he's a type one thinking that we could have prepped him in some way and so He's really prepped now to become a type one at any point. I love the, of what trialnet is doing and what they offer. Stacey Simms 27:07 Thanks so much for sharing that. I think people worry about doing trial net, you know, they're not sure what they're going to find out, but I would want to know, so what's next for you? You go on up any more volcanoes you coming up with any other products? Or are you just trying to get your kids off to college? Kris Maynard 27:22 You know, going up that mountain, I said probably a good 20 times remind me never to do this again. Because of how hard it was. But now that I'm past it, I would love to go do another mountain climb. It's weird how the mind works and how forgetful it can be once you get past something. But at this point, I mean, the the group that we're with, they are more experienced than what I'm in on the mountain climbs. They want to start doing some annually. Whether we do that or not, I don't know at this point. The fun part of this journey too is that somewhere along the line Shark Tank, found us and reached out to us and interviewed me and said, Hey, would you like to be a part of the show? And thinking immediately, I would love to broadcast diabetes on a national stage. So, yes, and so they gave me one week to make a video. And that video that we made, we shared on social media and got tons of viewership tons more than what we normally do. The hard part that we've learned from that is that they said they would contact me by whatever date that it was, and we'd never heard back so we assume we didn't make it to the show. But again, what a fun experience to be able to go through trying to figure out how to put something together answering 50 questions, getting it done within one week and a video getting it back to them. Stacey Simms 28:55 So you never know they may call and now you know for the next time too. had to do that even better. But we'll keep an eye out for you. Yeah, that sounds great. And I'd love to, is that video still online? Kris Maynard 29:06 Yeah, we have it on our YouTube channel. I don't think it's on the website anymore. Stacey Simms 29:12 I think Listen, it's a great experience, right? And you never know, they could call. But we'll leave that video up, you know, maybe somebody listening will see it be able to pass it along to the right people you never know. Kris Maynard 29:23 Yeah. And again, it really I mean, two things is one I want to get diabetes on that national stage and to the blue circle. I've been in contact with the CEOs that beyond type one jdrf and the ADA on hoping that they will just put the blue circle around their emblem, I don't want them to lose their emblem, but really, each one of them has told me that they want to brand themselves and from that from the diabetes side. That's not comforting to me, because I know outside of the diabetes community, what I've learned is that the jdrf is really known as the wall And the ADA is known as illegal. And most people don't know what beyond type one. And I think if the diabetes community got on the same page, how much efforts we can make, because the pink ribbon for breast cancer, I mean, it took them about 15 years to be able to build up that, but the funding for that from the government agencies skyrocketed. And so that's what my hope is with the blue circles to get the diabetes community whether it's type one or type two, because the power numbers coming together, and recognizing that blue circle is what's important to me. So that the fundings there so that I mean, if one out of every three in our world is going to eventually have diabetes, now's the time to come together so that it can get the funding that it needs. So that one out of three doesn't need to get diabetes. Stacey Simms 30:51 I hear you. Well, Kris, thank you so much for jumping on and sharing your story and the update with us. I really appreciate it. It's great to talk to you again. Kris Maynard 31:00 It's great talking to you, Stacey. I appreciate your time so much. Announcer 31:08 You're listening to Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms. Stacey Simms 31:14 And you could find out more about Kris and about the necklace. There's a couple of different kinds, mostly about sizes there. And there is a promo code, you can find that all at the episode homepage at Diabetes connections.com. Kris is generously giving my listeners 15% off using the promo code, blue circle, and that is all one word. And I really wish him the best. It's not easy to have both your kids going off to college, certainly in a year like this. And certainly at a time when the younger one you know, they're kind of waiting to see what happens in terms of diabetes, but I'm a huge fan of trial net. I really do think as he said, you know, you want to know and I have a lot more information on the website as well. If you want to search that up. We have a very robust search box if you're new to the show. This is Episode 320. And you can search by episode type. You can search by Subject keyword or by date, and we've done a couple of episodes on TrialNet that I would highly recommend. Alright, my new segment Innovations coming up in just a moment. But first diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dexcom. And when Benny was very little, and in the bathtub or at the pool, a kid could have spent the whole summer in the pool. I always noticed his fingertips. I mean, you know exactly what I mean. They were poked so much, they were just full of little pinprick holes. You can really see when they got wet, although I don't know if people actually know this anymore. I mean, they were like little Franken fingers. But when when you have a little kid now, so many of you are already on Dexcom so quickly, I'm not sure if you've gone through this. This is fingertips basically look normal right now. We have been using Dexcom for almost seven years. With every new iteration we have done fewer and fewer finger sticks. The latest generation the G six eliminates finger sticks for calibrations and diabetes treatment decisions. Just thinking about doing the 10 finger sticks we did every day in the past makes me so glad that Dexcom has helped us come so far. It's an incredible tool. If your glucose alerts and readings for the G six do not match symptoms or expectations, use a blood glucose meter to make diabetes treatment decisions. To learn more, go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the Dexcom logo. Alright, let's talk about innovations. This is a new segment I'm starting because I have heard about so many fun things over the years that you are so smart to come up with. And I want to help spread the word. So let's start talking about your innovations. Now this segment will include everything from probably cool stuff coming down the pipeline that we hear from industry and tech companies and I really want it to include your innovations and that can be everything from the woman Gosh, I wish I remembered who this was years ago. She gave me the advice of if you're in a hotel and you have insulin in the fridge or if you're leaving your home and you have insulin in the fridge you want to bring on a trip. She leaves a shoe in the refrigerator the shoe she is going to wear in the morning So she does not forget. Now I use that but I put my car keys in the fridge. Because I'm not putting a shoe in my refrigerator. I'm not even putting my shoe in a hotel refrigerator. But I do put car keys in so that you don't forget, it really helps. You can't go anywhere without the keys. And when you get the keys, if you forget where you put them, hopefully you remember you put them in the fridge. There's the insulin. So that's the kind of stuff I'm thinking of for this segment. This week. Although I guess I just gave you one there. I want to talk to you about happy Bob. Happy Bob is a new app. And it was created by a mom of a child with Type One Diabetes. Her son was diagnosed at age six. She lives in Finland, which by the way has the highest incidence of type 1 diabetes in the world. What is happy Bob, it is an app that connects to Apple Health kit, it streams CGM data. Now it gives you you know, stars that you can collect. And I think there's a bunch of apps out there that have tried to gamify diabetes, which really hasn't gone over that well because most people they just want to do less. They don't want collect points. Although that is a popular aspect of happy Bob, the big deal about it is that it gives you editorial for where you are. It'll say things like your blood sugar is 110. You are awesome. Or your blood sugar is 138. Your numbers today has been on fire. If I had a buddy, I'd be dancing right now. He was silly things like that. But the best part about happy Bob, in my opinion, is his alter ego snarky Bob snarky Bob enjoys making. I wouldn't say rude comments, but more sarcastic comments. And they're always changing. They're funny. It's just such a smart idea. Now I did mention that it links to Apple. I just found out that they are testing the Android app. So of course they are developing this. There's even a Facebook group I think or a Facebook page for sure. For happy Bob. So I will link all of that up in the show notes. I tried to get Benny to put it on his phone. But he as of this point is not interested although he did think that the snarky Bob It was pretty entertaining. kudos to them for doing this. I think it's fantastic. If you have an innovation like that, send me something I'll post in the Facebook group as well. You can always email me Stacey at Diabetes connections.com. I'm very interested to see what we come up with as a community. You've got some great fun hacks out there and some really useful stuff too. So let's help each other and spread the word. All right, time for Tell me something good. And this one is really a nice one. We don't have any huge milestones. I don't have any marathons or 50 year diversities. These are all kind of a day in the life kind of things you'll understand what I mean. Caitlin says my tea Wendy got to have her first playdate with her best friend. Since lockdown began in March. They were so happy to see each other and only had to be reminded once to keep their masks on, which was pretty amazing to me. She writes since they are four and five years old. When we left she said it was her best date. Mike Joyce said the wild flowers on the Pacific Northwest trail are pretty great. And he sent a beautiful picture he posted in the Diabetes Connections Facebook group. Also Mike writes, I've walked a third of the trail to the Pacific Ocean from Glacier National Park. Mike keep the pictures coming. That said our six year old T1D jumped off a small Cliff into a mountain Cove this weekend. She has no fear of man, everybody's getting outside. I mean, that's one good thing. We're all spending more time outside and Shelley said the rain is finally filling up our new backyard lake. If you look closely in this picture, again in the Facebook group, you can see my four year old and his new favorite way to burn that glucose and this kid is splashing. So if you have a Tell me something good. I think these are all great stories. Send it to me Stacy at Diabetes connections.com or post it in the group. Just something that makes you smile. I love sharing these stories. Before I let you go, I am working on a new episode. This will be out probably by the end of this week, and I'm a little nervous about it. So I really hope you give it a listen, I have a feeling. I've been working on this for a while that the philosophy of kid first diabetes second is really not working, actually never worked. So I'm going to be talking about that what I mean explaining it and dipping my toe into I think some pretty controversial borders. So I'm not asking you to agree with me. I mean, you haven't even heard it yet. I am asking you to give it a listen and let me know what you think that'll be out in just a couple of days. And then back to our regular you know, interview type episodes next week. big thank you to my editor John Bukenas from Audio Editing Solutions. A big thank you to you as you listen, I absolutely adore doing this every week. It is such a privilege to create the show for the diabetes community. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Stacey Simms. I'll see you back here in a couple of days for that bonus episode. Until then be kind to yourself. Benny 39:07 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Simms Media. All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Philanthropy Misunderstood by Bob Hopkins The word PHILANTHROPY isn't new, but many think being a philanthropist is about money. In Bob Hopkins' new book, he assures us it IS NOT. He and 100 of his friends define, by way of their good deeds, that philanthropy is about LOVE OF MANKIND. Philanthropy Misunderstood is a 256-page coffee- table book that will surely entertain and inform you. You won't want to put it down. It is colorful and exciting. “Bob Hopkins Introduces us to 100 plus new best friends…people like you and me who give of themselves who actually LOVE others. What a joyful time Bob shares with us. Optimism and hope emerge from every page. Each person's story sparkles. Each one makes us prouder to be fellow ‘homo-sapiens'.” Dr. Claire Gaudiani, philanthropist, author and international lecturer. Bob recalls his first experience with his mother when he was five years old in Garden City, Kansas as they delivered groceries to a poor family during the holidays. He remembers the pat on the back he received from someone for doing good. “Maybe it was God,” he recalled. For more information, go to Philanthropy Misunderstood. Read the Interview Hugh Ballou: Greetings. Welcome to this episode of The Nonprofit Exchange. Wow. This is going to open your mind to a whole new world. I just met Bob Hopkins recently on a recent trip to Dallas. Some of our previous guests that started Barefoot Winery said, “You have to meet Bob.” When I was in Dallas, I rang him up, and we met. They had shared his book with me called Philanthropy Misunderstood. I thought it was a nice book. When I started digging into the stories and what Bob knew about philanthropy, I said, “We have to share this with other people.” Bob, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Tell people a little bit about you and your passion. Bob Hopkins: Thank you, Hugh. I am so honored to be invited to be here with you as your guest today. I am glad to know that there are some other people in the book in your audience today. I am an older person. I have been around for a long time. Every 20 years, I ask myself, “What am I doing, and where am I going?” I have divided myself into four different segments of my life. I am on the last 18 years. I give myself another 18 years to live. I am trying to figure out what to do, so I am probably going to go to a seminar called PSI in June to find out what I'm going to do next. But, Hugh, I have been involved with this word “philanthropy” for the last 45-50 years. I learn more about what it means all the time. Then I became confused and realized that what I thought philanthropy was is not. Or maybe it is part of, but that's why I had to dig into it and tell stories of 108 people who actually do philanthropic things for other people. That's what this book is about. Hugh: How long have you been engaged in the nonprofit arena with leaders and different kinds of organizations? Bob: I came to Dallas in 1984. I had just been involved as the director of development on the National Council of Alcoholism and learned all about this word called “fundraising” and philanthropy. Found out that the two of them are together as one word and one meaning, and they are also separate things. Some people get them mixed up. They think that fundraising is about money, but so is philanthropy. I have learned that philanthropy can be about money, but largely not. Instead, it's doing good things for others. That's how I got involved with this. I have been in Dallas for 38 years, and I have been working in raising money and now writing a book. I did a magazine called Philanthropy in Texas for a while. Every decade, I learned a little bit more about what that word means. Hugh: Bob, you and I are in our mid-70s, we'll say. We could be sitting back, chilling, and not doing anything. But you and I have a passion for being engaged. Why aren't you sitting around? You're teaching classes, and the stuff that you're asking your students is really profound. You're active with some local charities still. Why is this important to you? Bob: I don't know. I do it because I don't know what else to do. I do play tennis, and I do ride horses. Those are two of my hobbies. I do spend time doing those two things every week, so it's not like I'm constantly thinking about philanthropy, even though I have a horse named Philanthropy. I watch the USTA, and did you know the USTA is a nonprofit organization? They wouldn't survive if they didn't get contributions from people. They do good for others. I guess I'm involved with philanthropy pretty much all the time, even though it's my joy. I love doing it. I like talking about it. I like telling people about it. I like finding people who are doing different new things. I have found so many people over my 40 years that I decided to put them in a book. That's where Philanthropy Misunderstood came from. Hugh: I've had the joy of visiting a couple. The whole family does this water project. I won't get into it, but I want you to tell people. You called them up and said, “You have to meet Hugh.” I went over there, and it was an amazing visit with the whole family. I met the couple. I didn't meet the kids, but I have heard about them and their involvement. How about highlighting some of the stories? Let's talk about this one first; they will be guests on the show in June. It's folding paper. How does that help people? Bob: This is a crazy story, and it's a fabulous story. It's been so fabulous that it's been on Good Morning America. Neiman Marcus actually helped these girls sell these ornaments that are called origami that they make. Their church and schools make them with them. They have volunteers of hundreds of people who do nothing but help make origami, and they sell the origami for $50-$75 a piece. To date, they have raised over $2 million building water wells to actually give water around the world. 170 different water wells in 17 or 18 different countries. These girls are 15, 13, and 10 years old. They started it when they were 4, 5, and 6 because Daddy is part Japanese. He said, “We need to do some origami.” One thing led to the other. I'm not sure what the other is and how detailed you have to get in to find out what the thinking was of the parents, about involving their children in making these origami. That's their life. It is now their life. These girls are so smart because they are in a business. The 15-year-old is the president of the foundation. It's a cool thing. Hugh: I went to visit the whole house and the project. These volunteers come in to do the folding. It's engaged people in a focus. I don't know if the people come in and do that right now, but maybe the family can do more while the kids are out of school. There is another story in here that has a big picture, and it's Bonnie and Michael with Barefoot Winery. They were guests a couple months ago, and they were the ones who connected us. Tell the story about how you got connected and their story in the book. Bob: It's so interesting because Eric is actually the one who introduced me to Bonnie and Michael. He was the marketing director of Barefoot Wine. What Bonnie and Michael did, when they couldn't sell the wine, because nobody wanted to buy it because there was no place to buy it, and liquor stores didn't want to buy it because nobody was asking for it. They started giving it away to charities on the beach in beach towns, mainly starting in Florida. He would give it to them for free, and he said, “If you like it, go to your grocery stores and tell them to buy it.” Long story short, over 15 years, it became the #1 wine in America. Bonnie and Michael did it through giving wine away to charitable causes. I know that they had a marketing plan here. They said, “This is cause-related marketing,” which are words we used to use. They didn't really know it was philanthropy because they really wanted to sell wine. But it also made them feel good, too. I have taken Bonnie and Michael on a philanthropy trip to Mexico. So I got to watch them in action. It didn't have to do with wine; it had to do with building schools and painting houses for people in Mexico. It's a great story. They are in the book, and they should be. Hugh: The book is what you would call a coffee table book. It is hardbound. It's a $45 book. The quality of printing and the quality of the stories and an amazing layout and design. It should be $100. It's one of these treasures. My fourth book, which you have a copy of, Transforming Power, I teach people how to do things. I got to a point where I said, “Hmm, people want to be inspired by stories.” That's one of the premises behind this show is for people to tell their stories. There are people out there in the trenches who are struggling to make ends meet, to pull people together, to rally volunteers, to rally their boards, to rally their funders. Let's talk a bit about this title and what's behind it. What is the biggest misunderstanding on both sides, the funder and people seeking funding? Bob: It started with me. I was always told that philanthropy was about money. I started a magazine in Texas all about people who had money and gave it away. I would come into my staff and say, “I think we need to do Boone Pickens on the cover of the magazine. And the first question was, “How much money does he give away?” That was the common question. That was whether or not we were going to put him in the book on how much money they gave away. Finally, after a while, I realized, You know what? I know a lot of people who do so much more than writing a check. They're never recognized. I have this incredible woman from Houston named Carolyn Farb who spends 26 hours a day helping people learn how to raise money, but also build a hospital, and do all kinds of things. She is not known to be a huge giver, even though she is a giver; therefore, her picture would not be on the front cover of anything because of money. But it would be because of the word “philanthropy.” I realized, because of Carolyn, that I was talking to the wrong people. I needed to be talking to people who were in the book. The people in the book probably give money as well, but that wasn't what I wanted the focus on. I wanted them to tell me why they do what they do. Why do they build origami and build water wells around the world? They don't get any money for it, and they don't give any money. They give things. Well, they do give money because they raise money in their case. Bonnie and Michael, they give money, too. Instead, they gave wine. Chip Richey gives his time and effort and expertise in filmmaking. He's made lots of films about the Indians and Oklahoma. He did things for me for my philanthropy courses. There is Jordie Turk who was a student of mine, who volunteered on his own dime to come to Dallas and video my launch party. His name is not even on the piece. But he did it. He loved it. He is happy about it. I think that's what philanthropy does, moreso than what money does, is gives you joy. That's what everybody says. I get so much more out of what I did than what I gave. Hugh: Philanthropy is both. We have to run the organization. It's like having a car. You have to put gas in it. But there is a bigger piece to this. It's not money alone. Sometimes, people want to give money to save their conscience. They want to be doing something, and they're not really involved with it. So they want to buy a place. but buying a place and stepping up and working. Talk about the synergy of the two of those together. Bob: I'm a giver. But nobody would ever recognize me as a financial giver because I give $100 or $200 or $25 or $50 or whatever. I'm involved with a lot of organizations. I give not necessarily because I love the organization, but I love the person who is asking me. So I write a check in order to continue this relationship I have with this person as a friend or as a person who works with me. But when I actually take on a project and get my feet dirty and hands wet, and I go out and build something, or I paint, I come back tired, but for some reason, I give myself this secret pat on my shoulder and say, “You did good today, Bobby.” That's what happened to me when I was five years old. My mother and I went to give groceries in a trailer park in Garden City, Kansas. We walked away, and I felt this hand on my shoulder. It was patting my shoulder, and it said, “You did good today, Bobby.” I looked around, and there was nobody there. That is the feeling I have gotten because of giving my time and efforts, as opposed to writing a check to get you off my back to say, “Go. I put my name someplace.” They go, “Oh wow, $100. Thank you so much.” Then they come back the next year and do the same thing. There is just a real difference between the people who are in the trenches and the people who aren't. Hugh: I think it's important to give at any level. You say that you won't get recognized for $25 or $50. But if we get a lot of people who support us with their time, talent, and money—you give your time, talent, and money. There is a triage there that are all magnified by each other. If you have the synergy, if you have one person who gives $25, great. If you have 1,000 people who give $25, then you are paying salary and rent and some operating costs. Then you can rev up the engines and focus on your mission. I do find a lot of charities are compromised in many ways, but as you know, the story of SynerVision is we want to empower leaders to step up to the level that they can take the organization. I noticed some of your students are here from the class, and I want to talk about them as well. There is a synergy in those three. We spend time teaching leaders how to raise the bar on their performance so we know how to engage people who are philanthropic-minded. There is a whole lot of stuff there. Jeff, “Bob has given many of us the gift of learning to give, and it is life-changing.” What a quote that is. Talk about your students. I got to sit in on three classes last week. You're doing this Zoom group session education, which is quite remarkable. Your gracious spirit with them, and you see what's inside them, and you see potential that maybe some of them don't see in themselves. You said to me you challenged them to think about writing a eulogy, but you also mentioned doing some research on a nonprofit organization. There was a need for you to have to explain what that meant. What is a nonprofit organization? Talk a little bit about the class. Bob: I taught at a university here. I was teaching business and professional speaking. I decided I wanted to bring in my love and passion to the course. How am I going to bring my love and passion into the course when philanthropy is not in the syllabus? I included philanthropy in the syllabus. When you talk about business, you are going to talk about nonprofit businesses. They had never heard of a nonprofit business, even though they had. They knew what the Salvation Army and the Red Cross was. They knew what the Boys and Girls Club and Boy Scouts are. But they didn't know they were nonprofit organizations. They didn't know there were two million of them in the United States. They didn't know that half of the things that are positive about our country is philanthropy. I said, “Okay, let's have you all look at a nonprofit you are connected with.” They had no idea they were even connected with one. Landon is a new student this semester in my class right now. You asked him a question and asked him to talk when you were in my class. He did. He has a passion. You can feel it when he talks, about the things he does or can do and wants to do to serve people in our community. What I'm doing is there is maybe a small fire underneath them already, and I'm turning up the heat. They get passionate about it, and I empower them to do something about it once they learn about the fact that they can do it. They can do something on their own. Landon is one of those. He has several physical problems, and one of them is with his eyes. He picked a nonprofit organization that had to do with sight. He loves being involved with something he can connect with and understand. We all do. We all can. I am attention-deficit. There is a nonprofit organization and a school that has to do with children teaching children about dyslexia and Attention Deficit Disorders. There is something I can do. There is something everybody can do because we all have something that we are connected with, and we just didn't know it. Hugh: I was going to come in and say hello, and I stayed the whole class for two of them. We are recording this in the middle of being sequestered home. It's a time of refreshing, renewal, revising, and thinking about how when we go back to work, how we are going to define the new normal. We are leaders. We will reset the bar. I don't think we're going to go back to what we did before. Most of the people in the book didn't do things in ordinary ways; that's why they are in the book. These stories will inspire others not just to do the same old thing that they always had observed, but to think about what they bring to the table that's really special. What is the new opportunity? Bob, let's dig into some more of these stories. The book is divided into sections. Talk a little bit about why that is and why that's important. Bob: I had some great people working with me. Tom Dolphins from Kansas City designed the book. The book is so attractive that people want to find out what it is. It's not just the words, but it's the design. And Ann Vigola from Lawrence, Kansas started out as my editor. She happened to be a student of mine prior to that. Ann spent a lot of time figuring out how to organize this book because as being an attention-deficit person, I have all this information up here. I didn't know how to organize it. It was organized starting out with topics. We did One Day at a Time because I am a recovering alcoholic, and I wanted to talk a little bit about that topic. One Day at a Time also had to do with the AIDS epidemic. I had a brother who died of AIDS, and I wanted to focus on that. Every person in here has had something to do in my life. People would say, “You didn't do so-and-so. They are such a great person.” I said, “I know, but I didn't work with them.” All of these people, I worked with. All the stories in here, many of them, I had something to do with. Chip got me involved in the Phoenix Project, or maybe I got him involved, which was helping warriors coming home from war, connecting them with their spouses on retreats with horses and massages. Chip actually put together a video about this whole thing. I was involved with that. I went to the sweat lodges with these warriors and watched them connect and relate to each other. They are all stories I have been involved with in one way or another, and that's one story I like a lot. Jordie worked with me with the poorest of the poor kids in Mexico in Guanajuato, Mexico, Leon. We would go to the poorest school, and I would tell the teachers, “I want to take your kids for just an hour once a week and bring in 20 of my students. We will teach them philanthropy.” We watched children change because of a handshake. Jordie was able to volunteer his time, even though he was a student of mine, to put this fabulous piece together that is on YouTube. These are all stories we were able to capture. I wish I'd had these two men together with me for all of the stories because somebody's contacted me and said, “We need to make a movie here with these short stories.” Some of them still have long-lasting things. One of the people in Mexico said, “Just teaching a child to do a handshake and watch her change as a person week after week after week has changed me as a person,” she said. It does. When you do philanthropy, it changes you. Hugh: That's a great sound bite. Serving churches in music ministry for 40 years, I took many mission trips. We went to give them, but we came back having received a lot more than we tried to give away. There is a reciprocity to giving. You're a giver, but you're blessed by your giving. You're enriched by your giving. You give stuff away, but it really impacts you. When I am with you, you're just full of energy. You're this most passionate energized person purposeful person. What more about the book? Was there a story here delving into their story for the book, that really moved you more than any other story? Bob: Yeah. We took a vote in our little group who put this book together, Ann, Tom, and I. There is one called “Bridging the Gap.” It is written by Morgan Herm. He is a schoolteacher. He talks about a bridge that is in Pennsylvania, where he lives. He would go and meditate there. On this bridge, he noticed that somebody had put in a letter between the planks. He opened the letter, and it was a letter that a person had written about them being able to become at peace with themselves because of meditating on this bridge. He put the letter back. Then there was a collection of letters that people would put in about how this bridge had brought them peace. It helped them through their divorce, or it helped them through their domestic violence. Morgan finally built a mailbox so people could put their letters in the mailbox. They could read each other's letters. That's philanthropy. That bridge serves as a philanthropic metaphor or example of peace and love. That's one of my favorites, and it's written so well because Morgan is an English teacher and writer. Hugh: Each contributor wrote their own story. Bob: They wrote their own stories. There was a couple of them that I wrote. There was a woman named Ruth Altschuter in Dallas who died last year. I wanted her in the book. So I went to her husband and said, “Would you write this for me?” He said, “No, I can't write anymore. I don't write.” I said, “Let me write Ruth's story, and you approve it.” He said okay. But most people wrote their own stories. One lady wrote a story that I told her should be 1,000 words. It was 5,000 words. I read it and realized I couldn't cut anything out. It's the history of Swiss Avenue, which is one of the oldest historic districts in the United States. She called it, “Philanthropy Built Her Neighborhood.” It's about how the mansions and big houses on Swiss Avenue became run-down in the ‘30s, ‘40s, and ‘50s. You could buy a piece of property here for $10 or 25,000, which are now going for $2 million, back in the old days. She wanted to tell the story about how it became a fabulous neighborhood that is looked upon as one of the premier places in the United States. It ended up being 10 pages, and I left the 5,000 words. It is the longest story. It wasn't meant to be that way, but it's really well done, so I didn't cut it out. Hugh: You said here. Is it in Dallas? Bob: Yes. I live in that district. I live in the Swiss Avenue historic district. Hugh: Wow, that's fascinating. Landon has a question. Landon, you're live, so if you have your mic on, do you want to talk to us? Landon Shepherd: My question is, let's say I have an idea for a nonprofit I would like to start. But I don't really know exactly how or where to start it, or who to talk to about getting started with what I want to do. What would be your advice to some of the students who may have these ideas, but don't know how to work out these ideas? Hugh: That question is for your professor? Landon: Either one of you guys. Hugh: We'll tag-team on it. Go ahead, Bob. Bob: He's a student of mine, and I will definitely have a talk about that. But we have in Dallas and in Fort Worth and every major city in the United States a center for nonprofit management. The centers for nonprofit management in each of the major cities are where people can go learn about giving and learn how to start an organization, a 501(c)3, the who, what, when, where, why. They have seminars all the time. You can go to the Community Foundation of Texas. You can go to the Dallas Foundation. These are other avenues of where people are experts in this. Yes, there is a way to do that. Landon, I will tell you who to contact here in Dallas. Hugh: There are centers like that in every city. There is also a universal presence called SynerVision Leadership Foundation. We have a blue button at the top of our page labeled, “Join.” We have this community with all kinds of resources. Sometimes, we find how to do strategy or how to do leadership or how to do fundraising or how to do a brand or marketing. We put it in one contiguous process so you don't have to look around. You can look at our site and see if that suits you. Combine working in person with one of these centers Bob is talking about. That would give you a leg up. Bob, I know half of the nonprofits started each year will close ultimately. My take on it is they haven't done a good job of looking at the market to make sure it's not being duplicated, and they haven't really activated their board and set themselves up for success. What is your idea of why some of those close? Bob: You're right. They usually are started by people who don't have any information. They have a passion, which you have to have for the topic. People who have cancer, they want to start a nonprofit organization that has to do with cancer and raise money in the name of somebody. The Susan G. Komen Foundation was started by Nancy Brinker here in Dallas because her sister Susan G. Komen had breast cancer. She told her before she died, “I am going to find you a cure for this.” What Nancy did was she surrounded herself with experts who knew how to put together a nonprofit. Now, it is the best one in the world. I can tell you five or six right off the top of my head that didn't last for more than a year because they didn't have a board of directors, they didn't know how to do their paperwork, they started raising money without knowing how to be a fundraiser. Let me tell Landon and everybody this. There is an association called the Association of Fundraising Professionals (AFP) in the United States. 35,000 professional fundraising people. I was a member of this group for most of my years as the president here in Dallas, and went to all the major conferences. There are conferences every year with AFP. There is a luncheon in most major cities every month that bring together all the people who raise money for the nonprofits in any city. There is a program with a speaker. It is a time to network, the people who have been there and done it before. That's how you do it. Hugh: Building a network around you. There is a peer-to-peer network, which is great, but you want to have a network of people who are even better than you. In my case, it's not hard to do. But hang around people who have been there, done that, and are experts. We have Jeffrey Fulgham watching who has a question. I want to allow you to talk. Jeffrey has been a member of that and is a certified fundraiser. Why is it important for you? You went through the certification process and studied development for so many years. Do you want to comment on the organization and why it's so important for people to understand now? Jeffrey Fulgham: I have always looked at it as a cliché of the good housekeeping seal of approval. I think this gets more important every day. This needs to be a profession, and it needs to be professional, not just in fundraisers but in nonprofits. There has to be some standard. We hope it's a standard of excellence, but there has to be some standard by which people can look and say, “Okay, this is an organization, or an individual, who is committed to certain principles, certain basic values, that transcend whatever it is that that organization is involved in.” Obviously, there are certain organizations whose values are going to be different than another one. But those values are related to the mission, not the operating strategy or the integrity of the entity or the integrity of the individuals working within it. What it allows us to do is create that standard. When someone looks at an organization, they have Guidestar to go to and the other metric organizations. But they also have a way to look and say, “Hey, this is what these organizations support. These are the values they support. This organization belongs to them and subscribes to these values. They subscribe to certain values. They set the standard.” Of course, the CFRE sets the standard as well. I think it's important for people who are giving, but also for people who want to get involved as volunteers, who want to go work somewhere. Do you want to work for an organization who subscribes to certain values and has that level of integrity? That's the main reason why I think it's all important. Hugh: Great. Before I let you go back into your listening mode, do you have a question for our guest today about philanthropy or about his book? Jeffrey: You know, that's the first time I've heard of this book. I'm definitely going to have to get a copy of it. I think it's really interesting that you mentioned that philanthropy is not necessarily about money. I always tell people that fundraising is not about money; it usually ends in money, but it's about relationships and about creating relationships that are long-lasting. Those relationships should transcend the money in that just because in a bad year, and we're having one by the way, where people are not going to make gifts to organizations they care about because they have to take care of their families and their friends. They will give more money to their church. They will make hard decisions about who they are giving to. If that person doesn't make a gift to my organization but they have been supporting me for 20 years, do I abandon them and ignore them because they are not giving money through our fundraising? No. Because I have a relationship with them that transcends their financial giving, or possibly their volunteerism. It becomes a different thing. Philanthropy is definitely a mindset beyond money, and I love that you are bringing that to the surface so people can understand what it's about. Hugh: I'm glad you asked me where to get the book. There is a website called PhilanthropyMisunderstood.org. You can find out how to get the book there. Bob: Thank you, Jeffrey. I want to know more about you as well. I am a member of AFP and of CFRE as well. There are a couple of people in the book who are CFRE, Scott Staub and Alfonse Brown. They have great stories in there not about fundraising. As you say, it was about relationship-building and the volunteerism they participated in as well. Hugh: Not everybody wrote a story in there. There is a story about a horse. Who wrote that? Bob: I wrote that one. It's my best story. I wanted Philanthropy to be on my front cover, and Philanthropy happens to be my horse. This woman by the name of Tracy Carruth, who is a big philanthropist in Dallas, breeds horses. I happen to have an Arabian horse. She breeds Arabian horses. Napatoff, who is her most beautiful world champion horse, was retiring. Before he died, or left the breeding ring, she wanted to make sure that I got an offspring from Napatoff. She gave me the semen from Napatoff to go into Sherry Rochesta, who was my Arabian. Through that, we got a beautiful horse that I named Philanthropy. I wanted to start that as my first story. My editor didn't like it, so we put it into the back. I am there with Tracy Carruth and our horses. That's the story. Hugh: The standards for everything, the quality of the writing and the photographs, the design of the book, all of these sections in the book. You start out with Circle of Influence. Jeffrey headed us that way. It's not about money; it's about relationship. When you and I had lunch recently, we talked about relationship. You now have a relationship with all these people, and they wanted to be in your book. Why is relationship important to our work? Relationship in our teaching at SynerVision, it's the underpinning of leadership and ministry, and it's the support for communications. Funding and philanthropy happens as a result of relationship. Say a little more about relationship and how it's important. Bob: Debbie Mrazek, who is one of the writers, wrote a part in the book called “Your Circle of Influence.” Who are all those people who will take care of you, who will take you to the airport and lend you sugar and tell you where to get the plumber? I had my students write down 100 people they know, wheedle it down to 25, and then 15 who will be in their circle of influence. I teach networking. It's not what you know; it's who you know. That's the first thing and last thing I say in my classes. My students, I say, “How many people do you know?” They didn't know 100 people. One of them knew seven. My family members. No, I don't want to meet anybody. No, I don't need people. I said to the class, “I'm going to take students to Nepal. It will cost $1,500. How many of you can raise the money to make it happen?” I went to this girl who said she knew seven people, and she didn't want to know any more people. She said, “I don't know anybody. I don't want to know anybody. I guess I'm not going to Nepal.” I said, “I guess you're not.” We took people to Nepal because my students most of the time realize that they have a great number of people around them who care about them, but there is a methodology of how to influence people and how to cultivate people and how to get them to be your friends, and more than friends, how to be a good friend, how to help people, and actually go around hunting for things to do for people. That's what I want my students to become. I don't think that we get anywhere in life without others. That's one of the key principles that I teach in my communication classes. Hugh: Your class that I sat in on is really about communications. You're really promoting good thinking skills. Communication to me is based on relationship. We can send a whole bunch of emails that nobody reads. It's not about data. Bob: No. I send emails, and I pick up the phone. We used to send faxes. We used to go knock on their door. We used to drive by. I think that this time right now, we're trying to figure out how to continue life in solitude since we are told to stay home, and stay home alone. I think we're finding this television and this computer even more important than ever since this is how we're able to stay in touch, through this cell phone we love so much and this computer. However, I can go next door and knock on the door and take them a cake and say, “I was thinking of you and realize you may not have any desserts at your house today.” Sometimes, I'll have my lawnmower man come out and next door, they don't mow their lawn very much. “Go mow their lawn. I'll pay you.” The people come home and say, “I can't believe you had somebody mow my lawn.” It was a philanthropic idea I had, was to love mankind and do something for the person next door. Hugh: Bob is an inspiration. My ideas are popping. You have 100 creative ideas every six seconds. You're prolific. In these stories, 100+ stories from people who helped change the world. We are all doing our part. It's not one person. But one person can start a movement. My friend in Lynchburg, he was the person who founded Stop Hunger Now, which is now Rise Against Hunger. Before we had a setback with coronavirus, they were on target to package 750 million meals. Their vision is to end hunger in our lifetime. It's not just about packaging the meals; it's about a lot more than that. One person thought of that and founded it, and it's now a major movement that will exist long past his lifetime, which is what he wanted. It's a legacy. What are the legacy possibilities for any of us who say, “I want to do something for humankind and have it keep going?” Are there possibilities for all of us? Bob: I always say, “What are you doing for the person who just passed away in your life? What will you do for your mother? What will you do for your father?” I got involved with building schools in Nepal with Don Wilkes. Let me tell you about Don Lueke since he is here. Don Lueke is from Kansas City; he and I met probably 30 years ago because he taught children at his school about giving. It's the Junior Leadership. It's similar to my PAVE program (Philanthropy and Volunteers Education). For the last 15-20 years, he and a man by the name of Steve O'Neill, who are businesspeople in Kansas City, take time out of their week every week to teach children at the Catholic school where their children go about giving back. This has become so sophisticated that this last year, I was a part of a seminar they had at the University of Missouri in Kansas City, where all of his students, maybe 30 or 40 of them, came and gave presentations on nonprofit organizations they had helped in the community. He does similar things to me: empower young people to get involved in the community. There is a double page about him and this group he is doing it with. Don Wilkes in Nepal for example. What can you do to honor somebody? He said, “If you can make a contribution of a couple thousand dollars, we will put someone's name on a classroom in a school we are building in Nepal.” I called my brother and sister and said, “For $2,000, we can put our mother's name on a classroom in Nepal.” My brother says, “I want to see a video of what it looks like.” I sent him the video, and he called me back immediately and said, “Let's do it.” My sister said, “Sight unseen, let's do it. We want to honor our mother.” For $2,000, our mother's name is on a school's room in Nepal. I know because I went to Nepal to see it. I had to go see my mother's name. When I got out of the car, and the children were clapping for me because I was amongst them, because I gave a simple $2,000 and put my mother's name on the deal, gave me such joy that we decided to do it again. I put my cousin's name and my aunt's name in another classroom on another school they are building in Nepal. That is a way you can provide not necessarily for yourself, but for somebody else that meant a lot in this society. Everybody we run around with meant a lot in this society. They did something in their lives that changed the world. Hugh: Absolutely. That's an inspiration. Are you willing to entertain questions if I open everybody's mic? Bob: Absolutely. Eric Groover: Bob, this is Eric Groover from the University of North Texas. How are you doing, Bob? Bob: Hi, Eric. It's good to see you again. Eric: Hugh, I just want to say thank you for hosting Bob. Bob and I are new acquaintances through some of our students at the Texas Academy of Mathematics and Science here at the University of North Texas in Denton. Just north of the DFW metroplex. Bob was actually scheduled to come speak to some students on our campus last week, and unfortunately we had to cancel that. Bob was gracious enough to bring up some of the books that we purchased for our students and faculty and staff. We spent a few minutes violating the university's shelter-in-place order, visiting in my office for 20-30 minutes. I just wanted to say, Bob, that it's been lovely watching you today and hearing your stories again. Just a huge thank-you to Hugh for hosting this event. He does you credit, and I'm glad for that. Thank you very much. Hugh: Thank you, Eric. Blessings. Nancy Hopkins: This is Nancy Carol Hopkins. Yes, I am Bob's sister. I am watching from Tucson, Arizona. Obviously, Bob has been an influence in a lot of people's lives, including mine and our younger brother. I wanted to make a comment on the volunteerism point. First of all, Bob gets asked frequently how come he stays so young and is so active at his age and has so much energy. If you look up and do some research on volunteerism, there is a lot of research that shows that volunteerism actually helps you medically, emotionally, physically, keeps you young literally. It does. There is medical research to prove that. If anybody wants to know how Bob stays so young and energetic, it has nothing to do with vitamins and pills he is taking. It has everything to do with the work that he does. Hugh: Very helpful, Nancy. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing that. Nancy: You're welcome. Hugh: You don't have to take tonic if you hang around Bob Hopkins. Nancy: That's right. You don't. Hugh: That's so rich. By the way, our governor slapped a stay-at-home order on us until June 10. The exception is volunteerism. If you volunteer for a charity, you can get out and do it. That was a good thing, I thought. Penny Rambacker: Hi, this is Penny Rambacker. How are you doing, Bob? Bob: They said Penny. I was hoping it was you. Penny: I'd like to make another comment about the idea of having purpose. I think Bob has a purpose, as many of us philanthropists have. I have been reading a book recently that said two of the things you can do to be the happiest in life are 1) to have a purpose and to feel needed, and that keeps you young and alive, and 2) is to be grateful. Those of us that practice gratitude and appreciate what we have are oftentimes people who are giving because they have seen other people with greater needs than their own. They become grateful for all of the things they have in their life. I had a huge gratitude lesson back when I first got into this. That was when I visited the garbage dump in Guatemala City. I saw children living there. It really touched my heart, and I had to do something about it. I found my purpose, and I felt grateful for the life I have. Two good things to think about when you are doing philanthropy. Yep, that's me and my kids. Hugh: What page is that on, Bob? Bob: Pages 48-49. Hugh: Love it. Great stories. Penny, where are you? Penny: I am in Naples, Florida. We work in Guatemala. My charity has built 57 schools in the mountains of Guatemala. We also sell handicrafts. We just sent an e-newsletter telling people to visit our store online. It's virus-free. You can go shopping for a greater good. If you want to go shopping, we have great things at Store.MiraclesInAction.org. Hugh: Good for you. I have been to Guatemala, and people are very poor. They have lots of wonderful natural resources. They do wonderful clothes with all these designs that are brilliant. What are you showing, Bob? Bob: This is Don Lueke's page. He is on pages 82-83. Hugh: Don, do you want to comment? Don Lueke: This is a great opportunity to showcase your work, Bob, and the work of everybody in that book. I appreciate the efforts on your part. Just want to add. We talk about having a purpose. I think that is what makes us get up every day, or at least get up quicker. I don't know if I have a lot more to add. I'm humbled by everybody's story in the book, so I think I am just one of many. Hugh: Thank you for sharing. I am humbled being part of Bob's network. *Sponsor message from Wordsprint* Bob, what is a parting thought you'd like to leave people with today? Bob: I am going to do another book called Philanthropy Understood. It's going to be new people. Some of the old people we want to expand upon, too. I'd like to do something with TAMS. I think TAMS is a great program that Eric Groover has been a part of before. There are so many people that I have been thinking about. That's what I'm doing right now, and that's why so many people are here who are in the book because I sent them a memo telling them all that we are needing to stay together on a monthly basis. We did have a man pass away yesterday in the book, Charles Lowe. He has spent 45 years working with the disease called neurofibromatosis, and I worked for them for eight years. I was able to tell all of the people in the book about his passing. So many people responded who didn't even know Charles, but did know his article in the book. I think the more we create this circle of influence around ourselves, the richer our lives are going to be. Also, the kinds of people we depend upon, I always try to find people who are smarter than you who have more things going on for them because they will lift me up instead of running around with people who will pull me down. My challenge to everyone is to continue these kinds of groups, and continue doing good together. That is the real fun about philanthropy and being volunteers. It's a togetherness thing. I did go with Penny to Guatemala, and I loved the experience. She is in the book. I went with her 20 years ago. I included her in the book because that experience changed my life 20 years ago. It's one of those many things that make up a person. It's so much fun going back in my history, in my family. My sister is the greatest philanthropist of our family. She is doing more than me even. I think that's the joy. I don't even say it's happy anymore; it's a joy to walk out on my front porch and say, “God, take me. What is my next step? What do I have to do next?” You know what. Somebody picks me up and takes me. I think that's the lesson I have learned more than anything: you have to be willing and tell people. Hugh: Bob Hopkins, you are a gift to humankind. Thank you so much for being our guest today. Bob: Thank you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
To celebrate our Star Wars finale, we're joined by Ahmed Best (voice of Jar Jar Binks) and Mary Holland (voice of AD-3 droid) to talk about your top movie suggestion - the 1987 Mel Brooks satire film Spaceballs. Mary and Ahmed also discuss what it's like hosting the new children's Star Wars game show series, Jedi Temple Challenge. Plus, Ahmed shares the incredible audition process behind Jar Jar, how it caused a rift between him and Michael Jackson, and what it's like working with George Lucas.Sources for this episode:Bob It! Baby YodaSpaceballs Trivia from IMDBAlso, we announce what we're covering for season two! So stay subscribed to this same feed, we'll have new episodes releasing later this summer. Thanks for listening!
Summary: While we certainly don’t have solutions for all the issues we face, we know that we are ALL facing similar issues. So, we discuss them openly as well as our current strategies for dealing with them. One big issue is the slow down in B2B purchasing (i.e. agency services). Most companies just aren’t starting new projects, even in the most thriving industries. The uncertainty has caused a hesitation in the face of thriving business at times. While this certainly won’t last, what can you do to create certainty and close new business? These situations don’t mean that your business has to suffer. We know getting your discussion and sharing is one of the quickest paths to finding solutions. Today’s episode covers several topics as we see how the myriad of current events affect business. We talk products, lead flow, how to speed up accounts receivables, and more. Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: The universe has a painful, but fundamental truth - there HAS to be pruning in order for growth to happen. “Constant growth is cancer… pruning is painful, but it produces more fruit.” This won’t be forever, but use whatever pain you are experiencing to improve your product. There is incredible need for agency expertise right now- convincing clients to go online may present certain challenges, but Ken shares Metacake’s strategy for these reservations- 1) Planting educational seeds that will create thoughtful relationships and 2) Innovating your product offerings to suit new client needs. Implement electronic automatic payment plans for your agency - the idea of real-time, electronic payments seem revolutionary for agencies, yet the rest of the world has operated this way for decades. Now is the best time to start. Ultimately, waiting for payment or chasing payments is a distraction on both ends - the relationships will be stronger and your output will be better when payment issues are removed. For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes: Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders Connect with us: Connect with Ken at ken AT metacake.com Connect with Brad at bayres AT anthemrepublic.com Connect with Bob at bobwhitchins AT gmail.com About The Guys: Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt Show Notes: [1:15] Bob intros new series about current events and how they may or may not apply to everyday life or business. [1:50] Brad speaks about the happenings in his hometown of Detroit in recent weeks. With the BLM movement spurring peaceful and not-so-peaceful protests around the country, he takes a moment to reflect on people around him who are participating. [3:20] Ken talks about the same in his hometown of Queens. “I feel like the world is groaning in a lot of ways, I think you see that with race issues, with Covid-19… There will always be problems, but there will always be good that comes out of these problems.” This will pass, and we should all seek to learn from it and become better versions of ourselves. [5:31] Bob reflects on the writings of philosopher Phyllis Tickle, who believes that you can see a pattern of massive shifts in civilizations every 500 years, and that’s where we are right now. [6:15] Ken talks about the fundamental foundations of the cycles of life- they exist on long-term, short-term, daily scales. This is a part of the way that we learn more about business as well as life. “Constant growth is cancer… pruning is painful, but it produces more fruit… as painful as that pruning is… in business there has to be a pruning in order to rise above the challenges.” [8:23] Brad talks about how that pruning is super painful when it comes to business- letting people go who are not truly in line with your company ethos. [9:05] Bob: “As we’ve been looking at the markets… talking about what does it mean to close deals and stay alive and pivot… there is some counterintuitive growth happening, the markets are up, employment is up… Brad what do you make of that?” [9:57] Brad speaks about how employment numbers are up, which is surprising but comforting. “I think that consumers haven't lost their confidence, mainly because there hasn’t been a big enough pinch yet… extra unemployment runs out in July, so people have the means to survive. If we get enough jobs through the summer, I think we’ll be okay.” [11:32] Bob asks Ken about the numbers from HubSpot. [11:50] Ken: Stresses the reason this podcast was created in the first place- to peel back the veil behind business and agency ownership. Now is as good a time as ever to be really transparent about these things. Hubspot released data this week that the upward trend in closing deals has gone down again. “Businesses have been slower to act- consumers not so much.” New deals, new campaigns, etc on a business end is more risky than a single purchase as a consumer right now. Knowing what your specialty is and being able to zero in on what you can bring to the table and how you can provide value is enormously important right now. [15:17] Bob asks about deals they have worked on or closed in the last month. Were they started before Covid, as a result of Covid, etc? [15:19] Ken responds that most of them are currently a response to Covid. “In our experience, the situation has created an awareness of a problem or an opportunity that they need to go after, so our inquiries have been up.” [16:40] Brad asks what sort of questions people are asking. [17:00] Ken says that many have intuitions or instincts that there is opportunity that they should be going after, and they want to see that through. With the world telling them that they shouldn’t be taking risks, it can be a challenge to get people to act on that intuition. [17:50] Bob adds that there are also a lot of people who realize that ecommerce is important and are just now looking into it, only to realize the expense involved and the work that is required. [18:35] Ken: Speaks about his direct experience talking with companies who have not made the move to fully invest in ecomm- suddenly the “website guy” is the most powerful person in the room and budget is being allocated to them and they don’t want to mess up that opportunity. So there is a lot of trepidation and information-collecting. [19:15] Bob: Asks Ken about how to educate people on the importance of ecommerce and building a strong strategic foundation online. [19:40] Ken talks about Metacake’s 2-part strategy for education. 2-part strategy: “First, investing in helping and educating.” Planting seeds. “The second part is innovating our product.” Metacake gets a LOT of inquiries from new business owners who don’t have capital or any way to invest. So there is a deep need for free/affordable education that creates value in their businesses. [21:50] Brad asks what percent of inquiries are new business versus established business. [21:55] Ken responds that it’s a 70/30 split, with 70% being new businesses and 30% being established businesses. [23:30] Ken continues speaking about services vs purpose. It’s so important that businesses aren’t based on the services that you provide, but the value that you’re offering and the purpose that you’re serving. [25:45] Brad speaks about the pain of hearing from a great business that simply can’t afford the services you offer, and how it has become a mission for Anthem to create products that can meet people in whatever level they’re at, whatever they’re able to afford. [26:30] Ken: There’s a big risk as well in making a product affordable. There’s a risk of cheapening the value of what you’re offering if you don’t charge enough. This may result in setting the customer up for not succeeding, which hurts the relationship long-term as well as the business. [28:05] Ken: “There are 3 types of people- my money for me, my money for somebody else, somebody else’s money for me, or somebody’s money for somebody else.” The last one is the “easiest” to deal with, as the project is less emotional and the spending is less emotional. Being aware of this is important when selling. [29:00] Bob: “It’s better to make the client uncomfortable in the beginning so that you can guarantee success, versus taking what they have and not being sure if you can be successful from that amount.” Making these decisions comes with time and experience. [31:03] Brad speaks about being uncomfortable when clients aren’t getting their money’s worth in the services he is offering. Sometimes it is simply best for them to work with a different company, whether that be due to the product or other factors. [31:16] Ken adds that agencies often tend to take on things that they can’t control. “Success is doing what you said you would at a very high level… sometimes that mean you can produce an end result that dramatically affects their business, that’s great.” It’s important to really define what success means to you and to your client, because your definition of success might not be measured by the same metrics. [32:40] Bob says that if you don’t get that definition of success clear in the beginning, more than 50% of the time your definition is different from theirs. [33:45] Ken talks about how it takes a really specific personality type to do this well and consistently ingrain it into the relationship. [34:45] Bob: Break that success down into weekly, monthly, yearly increments so that you have built-in benchmarks for measuring that and touching base about it. [35:45] Brad talks about Anthem’s sales philosophy. They do have strong funnels developed for cold calls but most of the business he’s been in has been based on a relationship with another human. More recent leads that have been coming in have not required “game playing” to understand whether they are a good fit or not. [38:57] Brad continues talking about “tire kickers” or potential clients who are asking a lot of questions without taking business seriously. This leads to a lot of investment of time and energy- but recently with the Covid 19 pandemic, there are less tire kickers around. [40:00] Bob asks if there are potential clients who are sitting on contracts and “stalling.” [41:02] Brad talks about the “sticky situation” of having loyal clients that are not able to pay on time during this time. When there is no communication from them even though the relationship is strong, it’s hard to know how to draw that line. [42:25] Ken talks about how ultimately this is a situation that comes down to respect. “We do largely electronic payment, and this is the number one reason why.” Payment scheduled that is agreed upon in advance. “If there is a situation that comes up, let us know.” [45:04] Ken continues: “It benefits both sides when you don’t have to worry about that… it’s a distraction, right? If you’re worrying about how you pay your bills, and you have to go chase people… that’s all a bunch of mental energy and physical energy that you can’t put into your projects.” [48:27] Brad: “We do spend more time than we need to chasing money, and asking and trying to get our invoices paid…” [48:58] Ken talks about invoicing and how the idea of monthly scheduled payments are revolutionary but really shouldn’t be. We don’t walk into restaurants, eat, then tell them to send us an invoice 30 days later. There is a technology barrier that makes this sort of payment process easy but not specifically for agencies. [50:40] Ken talks about having a mentor tell him that the agency “style” of floating large payments for 30, 60, 90 days at a time is old and outdated- and ultimately people simply couldn’t make their business last. [51:21] Bob chimes in that as your business grows, the danger of that increases. “In today’s volatility… your clients and yourself could be $100K or one $50K invoice away from closing your doors.” [52:05] Ken talks about how it’s not so much a pat on the back but this is a large pain point for so many, and finding a solution at ground-level to prevent that from snowballing out of control has always been priority. “There is old culture and tradition that had to be broken away… simple technology issues… why are agencies not in the 21st century?” More businesses doing transactions in a different way allows other to see how that they’re allowed to do that as well- helps entire industry in the end, as more healthy businesses are created to do business with.
Organizational impact is a result of effective leadership! The SynerVision Leadership Nonprofit Reactivation Symposium is a one-day intensive virtual event for you to learn the skills to stand up or grow your nonprofit, recruit the right board and volunteers, create a winning strategy, and attract donors to support your mission. This symposium is designed to equip nonprofit leaders and clergy to break through barriers in performance for themselves, boards, staff, and volunteers; and to attract the funding to support the fulfillment of the organization's mission. To register for this Virtual Symposium go HERE Read the Preview Conversation Dr. Thyonne Gordon: Well, I guess we can introduce ourselves, huh? I am Dr. Thyonne Gordon. I am here in sunny Los Angeles, California. I am your story strategist. I help people with curating and creating the best story of their life, their project, their idea, their business. As Hugh continues to pull me back into the nonprofit world, I help nonprofits to curate their story of great success. Hugh Ballou: You're so valuable to this sector. Let me introduce who's here. We're here to share with you. It's a preview session. Thank you for being here today. Today is a special edition of The Nonprofit Exchange. It's thoughts, ideas, encouragement, empowerment, learning, examples to learn from. It's people who have something to share. Everybody here has been a guest on previous episodes of the podcast. We'll have some more people joining us. These are presenters for the Nonprofit Reactivation Symposium that will happen on May 1. I wanted the presenters to give you their story about what they're going to share with you. Also, why did they want to show up? I am going to start with Dr. David Gruder. David, you've been with me doing this kind of stuff for a way long time, back since water. This is #27 of these live events. This one is the first one that is virtual, and it's very different. It was the Leadership Empowerment Symposium for years. You and I started noodling on the title. Share a little bit about what we talk about and why we named this a reactivation symposium. Dr. David Gruder: Right. Well, first of all, it's a pleasure to be here with you, Hugh, as always, and to be with these wonderful, esteemed colleagues who I so respect and appreciate and love. The changes that are going on in our society right now that have been brought to the forefront through the COVID-19 crisis are changes that have been under way for a while in a lower-key manner, that in a sense flew under the radar. Because of what's been magnified through the COVID-19 crisis, we really are in the process of establishing what's being called a new norm. Nonprofits are going to be dramatically impacted by this new norm. So what we at SynerVision Leadership Foundation are committed to doing is helping nonprofits stay ahead of that curve so that we craft the new norm together as the nonprofit world so that nonprofits can fill their proper place in the world in a more effective way in the new norm rather than be drowned out because of the craziness that is going on as the new norm emerges. Hugh: Craziness. Whoa. I love it. We were talking a little bit before we officially started. I had a technical glitch, and my Zoom disappeared off my computer. I am back. We were talking about being busier than ever. When somebody says, “Why do we need reactivation?” you are going to talk a little bit… Tell them about what you're talking about. David: The topic I am going to be speaking on is reenvisioning leader development in the new normal. The things that have been emerging during this COVID crisis really illuminate the necessity of, I don't want to be dramatic here too much, but pretty much an overhaul of the vision of what leadership is going to need to include that people were thinking of as optional before now. Now it's mandatory. I am going to be covering four key areas of new norm leadership and leader development in my talk. Hugh: We won't tell them exactly what that is yet. David: Ooh, it's a secret. You have to show up to find out. Hugh: It's a secret. Each of you have recorded a little promo that we have put out on the Internet and invited people to come. The latest one I got a few minutes ago was from Dr. Gordon. We have some California people here. David Gruder, you're way south, Spanish-speaking San Diego. Thyonne, you're a little north of there in Los Angeles. Talk a little bit about what you're talking about, and why. Thyonne: Yes, I'm Dr. Thyonne. I will be talking about shifting your crisis story through board leadership. I'll be speaking in regard to how boards and executive directors and organizations overall need to work together during the time of crisis more than ever. No matter what, board leaders and their executives should always be in mind step. But during a crisis, it's really important for the board to step up and take their leadership role and do it in a more advanced way than they have in the past. I'll be speaking about how board members can show up in that type of way. Hugh: We'll be talking more about that. This is the special edition of The Nonprofit Exchange. This particular event, we have a key sponsor, EZ-Card. *Sponsor message from EZ-Card* We have Greg Sanders today. Greg represents the EZ-Card company. It's his company. He founded it. But you're not just a tech guy, are you? Just a little bit about Greg. Why are you supporting the work of SynerVision Leadership Foundation? Greg Sanders: I just want to say what a privilege it is first of all to be here. I understand this is a relatively informal gathering, so I did not wear a suit and tie. I agree with Dr. Gruder. This time is a time of transition. So many people are learning new technical skills, supportive technologies, to enable them to conduct business and do face-to-face meetings in this type of venue as opposed to meeting at Starbucks and going to live venues. Not just businesspeople, but their customers. If I am going to do an estimate and put a roof on your house, I am not going to come to your house anymore. I am going to ask you to hop on your phone or computer. The normal person on the street is also developing all of these online skills. So to David's point about nonprofits, every nonprofit I'm aware of works with a skeleton crew. They are time-challenged and resource-challenged, and they probably don't have time to think about what Dr. Gruder is going to talk about, which is how to rest and reshape and reform. They are trying to survive. Coming on Friday is so valuable. What we're doing at EZ-Card is we are the supportive technology. I am not a major speaker. I will speak briefly about possibly using EZ-Card along with Zoom or other technologies which move your message forward in this particular environment. That is what EZ-Card is. I will be explaining the benefits of EZ-Card as a mobile app. When I think of a nonprofit, they have to get their message out. They have to raise money. They have to let their supporters know this is our valuable work we are doing day in and day out. Any video they can show where they are caring for children or at-risk populations, any way to get their message out there, and they can do that with EZ-Card on their phone. That is what we'll be doing, and we are happy to support the event itself. If you'd like to look at it and share it with people to get there on Friday, you just text LDR, which is an abbreviation for leadership, to 64600. Two things will happen. You will get a link to your phone. You click the link, and the EZ-Card opens. It could take you to the SynerVision website. It could take you to details about Friday's event. You can register. But it will also give Hugh and the leadership team your mobile number so they can send you text reminders about the event. Text LDR to 64600. We'd like to provide similar technology to any nonprofit if we can help you do what you do better and help you raise more money. Hugh: It's an amazing tool. I know David Gruder has one. The others of you who have seen it. Sherita just saw it for the first time. Bob Hopkins out there in Big D, Dallas, Texas. You're recording as you were wearing this ten-gallon hat. So passionate about philanthropy he even named his horse Philanthropy. Bob Hopkins: I did. I did, and I do. Hugh: It's this kid who said to his dad, “Your ten-gallon hat won't hold ten gallons; it only holds four quarts.” Tell us what you are going to talk about and why you want to talk about that. Bob: It changes every hour quite frankly. I just got off the television looking at the president of Brown University. By the way, universities are nonprofit organizations. Talking about how hundreds of thousands of colleges are going to stay afloat because they depend upon tuition, and lots of kids aren't going back to school at this time because they don't know what they're going to do, and they don't have jobs anymore. They won't be able to afford to go. I'm sure every board of directors of every university or college in the country is madly trying to figure it out. One of the people I invited to come on Friday as a student is Alfonse Brown. He's at a university in Florida, an African-American law university, the oldest one in the country. He has board meetings all day Friday and Saturday, trying to figure out what they are going to do in the fall. Not in the summer. We have already figured out the summer; we are doing Zoom, just like we're doing now. What are they going to do in the fall with those huge buildings, with billions of square feet? With students, I have 22-24 students in my classroom. We cannot handle six feet apart. If every classroom doesn't have 24-26, they will lose money. Thousands of colleges will have to close. Then I'm thinking about my students. My students have been introduced to the nonprofit sector in my class because I teach communications with a focus on nonprofit management. I'm thinking about them because what are they going to get out of it, and what message am I going to give them? I have a requirement that all my students come to this class on Friday. It's half of their final. Then they have to write a critique on what they experienced, what they got out of it as 50 points, and they have to write their eulogy for the other 50 points. After this semester, they will probably want to die anyway, so their eulogy might be appropriate. I don't know. I'm going to look at what you all are going to talk about, so I will try to fit in so I am not talking about the same thing. I listened to speaking about boards of directors as well as Thyonne. There are so many avenues of how to talk about boards of directors. How to get them, how to keep them, how many to get, what are their responsibilities, those kinds of things. I think, and you already messaged it to me right now, is how they will stay afloat. That's what boards of directors are going to want to know when they come to see us when we are talking about nonprofit management and organizations. How are we going to stay afloat? What is the new normal going to be? I think that changes every day, too. We are supposed to in Texas open up last Friday. I went to the bank just now. There was one man in there without a mask on. I went to the president sitting in the corner and said, “Is it a requirement to wear masks now?” He said, “Yes, it is, but we're not enforcing it. It's a $1,000 fine, and we're not enforcing it.” I said, “Why not? It's a rule and a law. If I have to do it, they have to do it because I am not being protected, but they are being protected from me.” I tell you every minute I find something different. Our lives are going to change not just from the board level, but from the people who come to participate with us. All of them won't be board members. They will be people who are not involved in the nonprofit sector as a living or in a vocation, but as maybe just a volunteer. Hugh: Bob and I met recently. My wife was going to Dallas for a conference at SMU. We were introduced by guests on my show who were the founders of Barefoot Winery. They accidentally founded a winery; it's a great story. We connected. Bob, you have a book in your hand there? Bob: Hugh, I'm so sorry you asked. This is my book. It's called Philanthropy Misunderstood. Is that appropriate for the time. I think it should be Management Misunderstood, Nonprofits Misunderstood, Our Planet Misunderstood. My next book will be called Philanthropy Understood. Hopefully in the next two years, we will figure that out. Hugh: Sherita and Thyonne will have some stories for you there. They have a massive amount of connections and nonprofits they have worked with. The new normal is you go into the bank with a mask on. It used to be when you walk into the bank with a mask on, they will be nervous. Now if you don't have a mask on, they're nervous. The new normal is opposite polarity. Bob: They are still nervous because they arrested two men and asked them to leave. Unfortunately, you people of color will understand this. These were two black men with two black masks on. The people behind the counter were uncomfortable with them and asked them to leave, not knowing if they had a billion dollars in the bank or whatever reason they were there. It didn't matter. We have a lot of challenges coming up. Hugh: Sherita, on that happy note, tell folks- Bob has been a lifelong champion of nonprofits. He has been a CFRE with the fundraising professionals. He is a wee bit older than me. Finally I am in a group with one person who is my senior. My sister Sherita out there, where are you now? Arkansas? Sherita Herring: I am in Hattieville, Arkansas, of all names, right? Bob: I know Hattieville. Sherita: The fact that I am even here in Hattieville. When I was a young girl, do you guys remember Petticoat Junction? I used to want to live there. I loved Betty Jo, Billie Jo, Bobbie Jo, Uncle Joe. I loved the pig Arnold. Most people did not realize how much I am a country girl. I am telling you that story because what I am going to be talking about on Friday is there are grants that exist even now that will allow you to live your most unbelievable dreams. I am living my dream. I am sitting here on 30 acres of land that has been passed down in my family for over 100 years. It's been almost 50 years since my great-grandfather passed away and anyone has lived here. It's not a cliché for me. I am living my best life right now in an RV with chickens and Guinea, and he is out there spraying. That's what I'll be talking about. Thank you for having me on with these other experts, Hugh. Hugh: We have Wil Coleman. He is a great musician out there in Raleigh, North Carolina. We will hopefully have Dr. Williams here in just a minute. Sherita: He is coming on now. Hugh: We also have a presenter who is not here, Bishop Ebony Kirkland. If you go to the landing page for the symposium at NonprofitLeadership.live, I am watching my phone. People are registering. It's exciting. We want to fill the house because there is so much important work to do. If you click on the pictures for these good-looking people, a video will pop up with an invitation as to what they are talking about in more detail and why you should come. This word “reactivation,” it's a mystery word for some of us because we are working as hard as we can. It's a new era. It's an important era. Bob has invited students. He is in the classroom again. He's worn a lot of hats. I gotta tell you, I have been in his class with his students. They come to our nonprofit leadership group on Thursdays. You are inspiring a new group of leaders, profound group of leaders coming up. There is a lot of untapped potential for people who might get overlooked. I remember, Bob, when I was 18, I had a chance to conduct when I was nothing but potential. Somebody like you believed in me. Somebody like you said, “Hugh, give it a go.” I was able to step up into a whole career. Let's go back to David Gruder for a minute. I want to ask any of you to shout out when you can. This is such an important occasion. Bob just talked about colleges who are a specific type of nonprofit. Big universities with big budgets and a lot of foundations and history are having challenging times. Imagine a small community organization that wants to feed people, clothe people, house people. They are working on a bare strings budget. David, what's important for our mindset? What's important for how to equip ourselves to rethink leadership and our work? David: Oh my. Well, okay. Short version is that we need to shift our, what's called in psychology, locus of control. Right now, in society, there is an external locus of control. What locus of control has to do with is how a person centers their ideas about where control lives. Right now, a lot of people are thinking that society and government and COVID-19 and external circumstances are the boss of them. That is a mindset that is a surefire recipe for victimization, powerlessness, and empty, unhelpful forms of rebellion. That has to shift into what in psychology is called an internal locus of control, where I'm the boss of the future I create. I'm the boss of my own stories that I tell myself and the emotions that I have and response to those stories and the words and actions that I say and do in response to the emotions I have about the stories I create. That is a skillset that is developable, and it is a crucial skillset, not only for leaders to embody, but for teams to be trained in how to do because without that, there will be no conscious, elevated, spiritual architecting of a new norm that is helpful to humanity rather than harmful to humanity. Hugh: David Gruder says things, and I say, “Gosh, I wish I would have put those words together like that.” He is a champion wordsmith. Anything else you want to share? Thyonne, I was so impressed by your short video. Of course, I was impressed by all of them, but yours is in mind because I got it most recently. It was passionate. You used to be part of a foundation that sent you out to do board capacity building. Why is it so important for us to learn ourselves as leaders, to equip ourselves as leaders to grow and engage our boards at a higher level? Thyonne: Thanks for the compliment on the video that you had me do at the last minute. It's really important for us as leaders to engage and interact with our boards because our boards are what make our organizations. They hold the fiduciary responsibility for our nonprofit organizations, which means if they're not working in step with the executives and the team at the organizational level, you absolutely could slip and fall. Your board is like your safety net. They are looking at things. Their role is to actually make sure the organization is staying afloat, is sustainable, is doing what it says it's supposed to do, staying in line with the vision and the mission. Your board is your support system. It's important for leaders to understand the relationship and the role they have with their board members. The foundation that I worked with prior was the Annenberg Foundation here in Los Angeles. We did do capacity-building by teaching board leaders how to work in alignment with the executive director. The program was called Alchemy. It was a magical program to bring together the executive director and a support person, or a champion, and the board chair. They had to come together in the program, which we would do quarterly. We came for classes and learning how to work together, how to build the capacity of the organization, and even how to fundraise. With them working hand in hand, they were able to have much higher success rates. It's important for leaders to understand the importance of their board and what their board roles are. Especially with small organizations, when you start an organization, my mom is on the board, my brother is on the board, and my sister down north. They're like, “Yeah, sure, you can put my name down.” They have no idea what it means to be responsible on a board. They don't know anything about board governance. It's important for leaders who want to start these nonprofits to understand your board is a serious thing. It's not just your mom and grandma and everybody who said, “Yeah, we should do that. That sounds cool.” And you're selling pies or chicken dinners or whatever it is to raise money. That's great, but if you have a board who understands their fiduciary responsibility, they will say, “We can sell these chicken dinners, but we also have to expand and talk to somebody like Sherita about how we find grant funding and how we are in alignment with that and how we stay with our vision and our mission. If you're working with saving the chickens, selling chicken dinners might not be a good idea.” Hugh: Absolutely. Thyonne: It's important for us to know what we're doing and that our boards know their roles. Hugh: I want to get Sherita on here for a minute. Sherita has some family issues, and she needs to go tend to some of those important things. She set you up for this thing that you are going to talk about. Everybody thinks there is grants, and it will be a smooth road going after them. You send in an application, and people will give you all this money. We have to learn some things as leaders, don't we? Sherita: Yes. For one, grant funders are investors just like any other investor. People think that there is a magic potion or something when it comes to grants for the nonprofit arena. That's why another time when Hugh and I worked together, and I wrote that article, “Nonprofit - The Stepchild of Business,” people treat a nonprofit like a side gig or a hobby. They don't put much into it. They might submit one grant or two grants and don't receive it and say, “See, everyone told me not to do this.” But they have been trying to get money for their for-profit business for 20 years and kept trying until they succeeded. They will not put much into the nonprofit arena but expect a greater return. That's what tends to happen. When you're going after grants, it's a joint process with the executive or whoever they choose to work with the person that is writing the grants because even myself, I raised over $30 million. We developed over 600 organizations. But there is no way to just take it upon myself and write about my clients' accomplishments without their assistance. I am very good at what I do, but I am only as good as the information received. People expect you to write a grant for a building, for the grant-writer to write about it without their input. The grant-writer doesn't know their accomplishments, who they have worked with in the past as far as collaborations, their projects. It has to be a joint effort in order to make it happen. Yes, like you said, I lost a very dear uncle this morning. I tried to clear my calendar to be on here with you, but I got the call this morning that my uncle passed away. I am working on a couple of things. Before I leave, it's also important for people. Just today or yesterday it was reported, a director of an ER committed suicide. She was in New York at a major hospital. Had contracted coronavirus herself while treating patients. Got well, went back to work, and yesterday, committed suicide. Organizations after every catastrophe, whether it is Katrina or the 1930s Depression, after every catastrophe, it doesn't stop there. There is going to be an aftermath. There is cause and effect. Organizations are going to need to get prepared for depression, suicide prevention, PTSD, while also like professionals like ourselves, helping people to regain themselves after this. With every issue or problem, there is grant funding. That is why grants are there: to address problems and issues. This is why the nonprofit arena, and you hear about grants more during times like this. It's not that it operates less. The nonprofit arena steps up more. It's important to understand that, understand how you can stabilize your footing, and understand the process of how to go after funding in order to ride this wave. Yes, it is a negativity that is happening right now. Yes, we are losing lives. Yes, a lot of businesses are closed right now. If we understand how to ride the wave of what is happening right now in addition to knowing how to survive and move forward in it, that is what I will be talking about. I thank you for having me on, including me with these other experts. Wil, hi, how are you? It's been years. Tell Pastor I said hello, and I do want to speak with you guys following on this. David Gruder, Greg, Thyonne, and Bob, I look forward to being with you on Friday. Have a very blessed day. Hugh: That was so profound. It's time for some summary statements. I'd like to start with Bob Hopkins. Every time I talk to Bob, I am amazed at the depth of knowledge he has about a lot of different topics. He is living the sweet life. He could be tending his garden, but he is out there inspiring students and teaching. He has joined the SynerVision team and wants to help us take the magazine up another level and do some work with us. Blessings to you and sharing your gifts, and thank you for being a part of this presenting team. We are going to wrap up here and let everybody have a moment to say something. What would you like to add to the conversation? Bob: I'm anxious to read the content again of everybody and what we are going to do and where I fit in. I am going to be there for the entire time. A lot of it might be off the top of my head after I have learned what I have heard from you. I don't want to go on a tangent that doesn't have some relationship to what we are already talking about. I think as a time when we all speak for 20 minutes at a time, then I'm later on in the afternoon. I'm the last speaker. At least that was the schedule I saw. Hugh: I messed with it because we had some changes I had to make. I am going to send that out to you right after this session. You do have several times that you are going to be able to influence people and share some of your stuff. I have had to rework it. Our Bishop Kirkland in New York couldn't be here today. She is sitting in New York talking to people about working together, collaborating. She is going to share with us Friday about that. We will get a report on how that is going in New York City. Bob, you could speak off the top of your head all day and not duplicate yourself. You have such a wealth of information. We are going to talk about philanthropy. His book is brilliant. He lifted it up before. Your book is 100-something stories of nonprofits and how philanthropy really works. We think we know what philanthropy is, but it really is different. How do boards connect with that? You have experience running nonprofits as well as being a resource to them. We have had to make the schedule a little fluid, but it's not a whole lot different. I have moved you up in the day a little bit. Whenever you talk, people are going to listen. It's like one of those big investment companies. When they talk, we all listen. Knowing that, you're going to have great gifts to share. Don't put yourself down. You have a lot of important stuff to share. Thank you for being part of this great presentation team. Bob: Thank you. Hugh: Greg Sanders. Why is the work of a nonprofit so important? Why are you sponsoring SynerVision? Greg: My mother and my father were both university teachers. My mom was in foreign languages, Spanish. My father was in music. I taught sociology for 30 years. I have a big heart for students who can't figure out what the heck they are going to do with their lives when they are 18-22, which is an important thing I felt like I did when I was working at the university. Not just transmitting content, but helping people figure out their futures. I think about Dr. Gruder who is known for integrity. My feeling is that everything we do should be of service to other people. I love the nonprofit organization because they wear right on their sleeve that we are here to serve. Businesses should have that same mindset. If what you do is not improving the quality of life for other people, you should go do something else. That is what EZ-Card attempts to do. I tell people if you are going to build a house, you could do it with your bare hands, but it's a lot better to do it with tools, even with power tools, because if you spend $1 on a power tool, it's going to help you save hundreds of dollars in building that house. That is what we are trying to do at EZ-Card. If the technology fits and helps people to do what they have chosen to do to help other people in a more efficient manner, that is what we're all about. I think we are right. We need to rethink the way we are doing everything, and we need to think about it in terms of helping other people. We are trying to make money during this period of time, but we are also caring for people. Just recently, I had one middle-aged adult talking about taking care of her 88-year-old mother right now and saying, “My mom was healthy. She went out with her friends. She went to restaurants. She had an active life. Now she is cooped up in her house and is wasting away. She is no longer actively engaging.” My advice is to maintain your normal life as best you can, even having to shelter in place. How can you maintain the routines? How can you maintain life as normal? It's that kind of strategic thinking that nonprofit organizations have to be maintained in. You can't do some things the way you did them before, but you can make a semblance of those activities and try to keep those healthy routines in place. I am privileged to be a part of it. We are trying to drive some traffic to what is happening on Friday from the EZ-Card side. Hugh: Text 64600 with LDR in the message. You will have the SynerVision card. Dr. Gordon, how would you like to close? Thyonne: Hugh, I hope you can keep David, Greg, Bob, and Wil because I plan on putting on my mask and kidnapping Bob from Texas. Bob, don't pay attention. I am going to be grabbing you and bringing you to California. Bob: My bags are packed. Thyonne: I have already texted Greg's site. I am excited about that. David, I know how I feel about you. Wil, I just met you. This is going to be an amazing symposium. I am excited to be part of it. Anyone who misses it, you are about to miss out on the opportunity of a lifetime. That is what we have to understand as nonprofit leaders and people in this space. I will speak as an African-American woman. This isn't our first time in a crisis. We know how to get through a crisis. Nonprofits, we are used to not having a whole lot and making a lot happen. In this crisis, we are the leaders. We actually know what to do already. Our leadership style is what everybody else is trying to do. We have been doing this makeshift thing for a long time. We have such an opportunity to take this thing by the horns and make an opportunity of it. That is what I will talk about with the board leadership as well. When board leaders step up right now, there are all sorts of opportunities for us to come out of this thriving and leading during this crisis as well as through this crisis to help us get through it. There is so much opportunity. With the people who will be at this symposium, wow, you will get the ideas, the information. You will have the knowledge that you need to break through and make a change in your organization. I am excited. Hugh, let's make it happen. Bob, don't look for me, but I am coming to get you. Hugh: That's awesome. You may have noticed some old white guy. Sometimes we're clueless. Some of us know how to dress, but not me. Wil, did you say Pastor is on here? Blessings. Do you have a picture, or will you just talk to us? Dr. Kevin Williams: I am just going to talk to you. I don't have a picture today. Hugh: Thank you for being here. All of us have crazy schedules. We have some awesome folks. You are going to talk about how Paul said be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Talk about the transformation that you are going to talk about. You will be square up at noon EST at the symposium. It's the spot before we take a lunch break. Tell us why we need that and why you want to share that with people. Kevin: Right now, I think one of the greatest challenges that that could hinder any individual is to be stuck to an old way of thinking. Everything that has transpired recently has caused two waves of thought. One wave is people believing that things will go back to the way that they were, which is a very dangerous mindset. The other thought is understanding that they won't go back to the way that they were, but also understand what is getting ready to come. Any time there is going to be advancement, either you are going to be a reactionary person or you will be an initiating individual. Thought leaders nowadays have to initiate so that we can provoke other people to initiate and not be reactionary. Usually, if you are reactionary, you are going to suffer the consequences of reacting. But when your mind is renewed, when Paul talks about that, he is talking about a renovation of taking out some old things, almost like renovating a house, taking out some old things and literally changing the scope of the house and the aspect of it so that it can meet your current needs. The same thing happens in the mind. If a person doesn't transform their thinking and get out of the old stuck way of thinking, they are going to ultimately implode and damage themselves. But when an individual comes into a mind renewal, this is why symposiums like this are key and important, because what you have then is you have thought leaders who are ultimately like construction workers. What we're doing is aiding the individual to renovate their thinking because in this renovation, people are not just going to learn about what's new, but also learn the type of thinking they should have that has hurt them before but also is going to help them now because now we're open to a new way of thinking. If you look at what's happening with the United States, with the government, with the marketplace, everything is shifting. Look at stocks. Look at the different kinds of currency now, like cryptocurrency. All of these different things that are happening, our mind has to be renewed. The next thing is we have to make sure that we don't fall into the hands of something that we don't ascribe to because with all of this that is happening, by being a faith leader, I understand that God has an agenda. Even though God has a focus and a vision for all of us, so does the enemy. We have to make sure we are not operating in something that looks like it has a form of goodness, but denies the power thereof. As thought leaders, one of the things I believe that is important is that our thinking definitely has to change in order for us to be effective for this coming time and for this generation right now that is depending on us to see something for them that they cannot see for themselves. Hugh: Awesome. Dr. Williams, it's been a few years, but you invited me down to work with your congregation. We did some leadership stuff. Wil and I did some music stuff. Also, the very first symposium happened in Greensboro at your church. Did you know that? Kevin: Wow. I knew that we did the symposium, but I didn't know it was the first one. Hugh: That was a shorter one. It was an evening. You put out the word, and everybody came. I remember Bishop Willimon asked somebody why they came, and they said, “Pastor said to come.” He was quite impressed with that. This is #27. It's changed a little bit. Of course, we can't do it live right now, so we are doing it virtually. It's a celebration of something we started in Greensboro at New Jerusalem Cathedral. Thank you for helping me launch this so many years ago. Kevin: Most definitely. I always want to be a part of things that you're doing. Hugh: Blessings. You've been a blessing to me. Thank you for being here. You're sharing it with your tribe. Bishop Kirkland is out here in New York City getting people to collaborate. She is doing some important work today. She will be with us on Friday. May 1. Be there. Thank you for getting in here. As we close out here, my brother David Gruder, you get the last spot. You know Dr. Williams, don't you? David: Yes. We have not talked or seen each other for a number of years, but I am delighted to reconnect. Hugh: This has been a great conversation. What do you want to leave us with? David: What I want to leave you all with is a quote from a 20th century thought leader that many of you are familiar with by name at least, Buckminster Fuller. What Bucky Fuller said was, “The best way to predict the future is to invent it.” This Friday, we are going to be talking about how nonprofits get to invent their future in effective, useful ways. I am really looking forward to offering some key psychological foundations for inventing a new future. Hugh: And you have a book. Do you want to offer a virtual version of it? Tell us about that. David: Very briefly, yeah. I have been involved in one capacity or another with 24 books now. One of them is a book I was the psychology editor for called Transcendent Thought and Market Leadership. That is by Bruce Raymond Wright. I have been blessed by Bruce to be able to offer a digital copy of the book as a gift to everyone who attends the symposium on Friday. Hugh: We will have some other gifts, but that is a significant one. David, thank you for being here. Kevin, thank you for being here. Greg, thank you for being here. Bob, thank you for being here. Thyonne is going to capture you and take you to California. He can do a book signing there. He will do that in California. I look forward to putting a spin on nonprofit leadership in a good way and inspiring people to go out there and make a huge difference. Thank you so much for sharing today with everybody. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Summary: Ever wish you could pick the brain of an industry leader who has been around a lot longer than you, has had a lot more success than you, has been down your road before, and is willing to share it all with you? Yeah, we did too. So we reached out to Daniel Brian Cobb, the founder of The Daniel Brian Agency. Dan’s agency has won more than 21 Emmy’s, advises clients like Papa John’s and Disney, is a respected author, and has been leading and growing his business and clients for over 30 years. Daniel has seen it all from the 2008 financial crisis to the current 2020 COVID-19 recession. Daniel is one of the voices that large brands go to for advice in times of crisis. He’s an amazing agency leader and God-given innovator. Daniel shares it all today. We discuss how he’s leading his clients and agency through this crisis, and the next wave of change that is coming. And just like the rest of us, Daniel’s business isn’t immune to the current crisis. In the first 24hrs of the Coronavirus shut down his agency lost $1M in business. We talk about how he dealt with disappointments like this and how he’s actually gained more business through this time. There is always HOPE and Dan walks us through finding it. This is an episode you want to listen to with your notepad ready (or just use our notes below:). Resources Mentioned: Dan’s book Surfing the Black Wave Dan’s Quicken Loans Presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXuk0f_SvqQ Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: We are in the third wave: The Participation Age. This is about collaboration and smaller units of power. Getting more access and creating a greater weight than any one big organization could ever create. Owning your media is more important now than ever! As we shift into a new way of doing business, owning your platforms and connections with your customers is vitally important. Innovate. Use the 80/20 innovation system. Always put 20% of resources towards future innovation. Be careful about doing any more or less. Your business must be healthy AND you must innovate to survive. For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes: Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders About our Guest: Dan Cobb: Founder of the Daniel Brian Agency (DBA), author of Surfing the Black Wave and 30+ year industry veteran. DBA specializes in innovative and measurable advertising campaigns to engage families via retail, healthcare, digital TV, family entertainment, and sporting goods. Dan has worked with brands like Papa Johns, Henry Ford Health Systems, and Chick-fil-A to provide creative connections with local communities. Connect with Dan: Website and Blog: https://danielbrian.com/digital-marketing-report/ On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielbrian Daniel’s Book Surfing the Black Wave https://amzn.to/2KHUD6l About The Guys: Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt Show Notes: [1:24] Brad introduces our guest Dan Cobb. 28 year veteran in this industry. Wrote Surfing the Black Wave [3:44] Dan tells us about his clients and the type of work he does. “We started with two types of clients. We started in healthcare and pizza. First two clients, Henry Ford health system, and Domino’s pizza.” “Our experience is really in taking chain based organizations, local organizations that are widespread and building that local connection in the local community for those organizations.” Gives example of Chick-Fil-A. When they work with a chain like this, the focus is more on local communities and local engagement. Daddy-daughter date nights, military appreciation nights, etc. [4:56] Dan continues: “In doing that over the years, what we’ve learned is that connection happens in the community, connections happens through values… That’s great to have a pizza on sale, a $5 hot and ready, but you can beat that with a $7 pizza that cares.” They ran a campaign for Hungry Howies that donated proceeds to breast cancer research. They experienced a 23% increase of sales that month, and they gained a quarter of a million Facebook fans and followers. “We saw how that local connectivity is about connecting to the values that people care about there and then bringing that together for maybe a promotion, maybe not… it’s more important that you have that values connection. [5:53] Brad reflects on first meeting Dan years ago. He recalls that Dan had a very clear vision that had nothing to do with advertising. Brad asks Dan what that “Why” core value system looks like these days. [7:22] Dan responds: “Many of us started with writing or artistic or musical skills, and it kind of drove us into this industry, which gave us a way to compensate those skills… for me it went back to when I was a kid. I was sitting on the couch watching tv… mom walks into the room and says turn that off, that’s bad for you. Go out and do something good for you. And it was that moment… it was this though, Why does it have to be bad for me? Why does this content, this entertainment, this advertising have to be bad for me? Maybe I can make that change.” [8:10] He recalls Nike’s “Just Do It” campaign impacting him strongly. As a runner, he found himself truly inspired by the commercials that he’d seen. “It inspired me to be a better runner, to be a better person, overcome the pain in my life, and just take on the challenges… why can’t advertising always do that type of thing?” [8:35] Dan: “So we started building a model around that… we call it Better Brands for a Better Human Condition. So we put everything we do through that filter: Is what we’re doing building a better brand for a better human condition?” “As a team, we started pull all-nighters, pretty much the slave shifts. We’ve all done it in this business… one of my staff members said ‘How is this a better brand for a better human condition?’” Helping your clients be the best they can be oftentimes comes at the expense of your internal team. Dan talks about how traditionally, advertising is terrible on employees. One client drops off and cuts have to be made, so there is a sense of very real fear every day. So he has worked hard to make his agency a great place to work. [10:01] Ken speaks about how advertising has had a “churn and burn” kind of experience in the past. Not having come from advertising, he’s had a different experience of the work. [11:37] Ken continues: “We focused on how do we create a business that is different and the purpose is really not the product we put out. It’s the message that we stand for… How do we do things like create a staff environment that’s not continually expanding and contracting- literal financial stability that is not necessarily dependent on any one particular client..” [12:37] Dan interjects- “We hear about flattening the curve right now- we’ve been flattening the curve our entire careers!” Reflects on the common experience of many ad agencies- working long hours sacrificing family and personal time, busting your butt to get things out the door only to find that the client isn’t happy and you both lose in that situation. [12:56] Dan: “So we now have been thinking through how do we flatten that curve so that through the course of the year, it’s fairly level… you have a few peaks, but it’s not all spikes and then drop offs. Managing that is really about managing a client… getting them on course and managing their calendar, building out longterm plans… looking for the kinds of clients who marry, who don’t date around.” Everyone feels the pain of clients who are not interested in settling down into a longterm plan with you- you, the client, and your team especially. [13:46] Brad speaks about a common theme here on Agency Exposed: “Are our businesses just a commodity or do we have a value that is unique enough that we’re not on that list of customers that are going to go and burn out agencies… our business has struggled because some of our offerings are commodities and others are not.” The fast pace of technology has increased the pace of the agency industry and it’s easy to fall out of step with the changes if you’re not intentional about it and learn to pivot quickly. [15:04] Bob segues into Dan’s book and the principles that he talks about. “Can you talk a little bit about that and maybe contextualize it for what’s going on right now. This whole idea that everything becomes commoditized… if it’s a new technology, new knowledge base, people start to learn it, more people start to learn it and it becomes a commodity… so what digital marketing was 15 years ago you can now pay $5 for someone to do it.” Lately there is a shift that has happened. Where the focus was on quick results expertise, very much focused on bottom dollar ROI, now we read requests for high level Facebook ad specialists, conversion rate optimization specialists. [16:33] Bob: “It almost feels like the tide is going back out again… what are you seeing in the context of what you write about in that kind of tsunami, black wave metaphor.” [16:47] Dan reflects on his childhood proclivity for invention. “My grandfather was an inventor and he taught me a lot about how inventors think.” Modern acceptance is that Amazon IS ecommerce, that it was a battle and Amazon won. Same with social media- there was a war and Facebook won. But an inventor always has hope for something new, for change. They will take ideas, put them together and create social media commerce. There WILL be another shift. [17:54] Dan speaks about the Third Wave Model based on a tsunami metaphor. A tsunami hit Hawaii and many people went out to the shore to marvel at the fish flopping out of water after the first wave hit. Little did they know, that marvel that they were distracted by was a sign of the next wave to come. Many lives were lost to that tsunami, people who were just spectators watching what had taken place. [18:31] Dan says “I believe we’re in the same place. We’re all spectators watching social media saying ‘Well, that’s over, Facebook won, Zuckerberg had the final say’ but there is another shift coming because there’s a mindset shift that took place over the first two waves. The mindset shift came in and said ‘It’s no longer the big three, the big five, whatever the number is in any particular industry to control everything.’” The first wave was thousands of years of agricultural society… the industrial revolution was the first great wave of society’s change in thought. Anyone can get a product. The next wave is information. It allowed everyone to have access to content, and people like Steve Jobs came and said let’s make this kind of computer technology available to the people and not just the big companies. The third wave is the mindset shift. This is where people are given all the power, we call it the participation age. Everyone can participate (this podcast, for example) and everyone can influence. [20:00] Dan talks about how it is no longer the focus to make one company the BIGGEST around, that model is outdated and useless in this day and age. [20:36] “Eventually that model is going to break, well all of them are breaking… It’s better when Daniel Brian meets three other guys who have specific skills that I don’t have, and we intertwine our relationships and build out towards something bigger to serve a bigger population. The participation age is about collaboration and smaller units of power. Getting more access and creating a greater weight than any one big organization could ever create.” [21:04] Brad asks what Dan’s suggestions would be for business owners to position themselves for this next wave. [21:18] Dan responds: #1: Don’t be afraid to talk to your competitors. They have skillsets that help your ability to reach bigger audiences. #2: “Always take the sale, then price yourself out it rather than saying no.” Say yes, then fall back on your connections within your network to help you execute things you could never do by yourself. [22:45] Ken agrees with Dan and recalls that that is the reason that Agency Exposed exists. In advertising things tend to be secretive and closed-off from collaboration, everything is a competition and so we tend to be closed off in disclosing what we’re ACTUALLY really good at versus what we say we are really good at. [24:15] Ken adds: “we often say collaboration over isolation… there’s a balance between saying you can do everything and being specialized.” [24:47] Dan: “It’s about vertical integration… your best new business is your current business.” When a client talks about how they want to explore a new solution, tell them you can figure it out for them. He gives an example of working with Henry Ford healthcare. When they started they had a tiny sliver of a budget with the client, and they began to see things they could do and took on those challenges. They grew from a very niche organization to a broad advisor- “solving the operational problems of the organization with marketing solutions”. [28:04] Bob asks: “What are some lessons you’ve used over 30 years that you could offer to some agency owners right now?” [29:07] Dan responds: “Own the media, it is our future, it is the Black Wave.” He talks about how in the early days of Facebook, if you got 9 million followers, that was a lot and felt very much like your platform like your community. But then Facebook changed that title, and now it’s just likes that you’re getting. So that’s no longer your community, that’s Facebook’s community. And THEN Facebook came in and said hey we can charge you to talk to these followers… “.. So the future is no longer about going to other people’s media and trying to find your way. It’s about creating your own platform, owning that platform, and getting more and more visibility.” [32:24] Bob asks for practical advice for agency owners. [32:37] Dan: “Marketing automation… building around your CRM platform.” [33:39] Brad asks: “What are some ways during Covid-19 that you’ve had to help your customers pivot?” [34:06] Dan says “Don’t look at it as a negative.” He gives the example of Papa John’s sales being up to Superbowl numbers. “And so rather than just start to gouge the customer we tried to say how do we endear our customer and connect to them during this time.” Papa John’s gave away pizza in communities where school lunches were needed. Now in those areas they are far outpacing the market because the communities know what they stand for during this time. Speaking on healthcare opportunities: “We’ve now flattened the curve for the most part, but there’s a second curve coming. The second curve coming is the mental health crisis… the next crisis is the fact that people have lost their jobs… they’ve been rejected from transplant procedures… the mental health crisis is bound to happen.” [36:14] Dan continues: “So now’s the time for us to engage our communities with messages of hope. The future. Finding ways for our health systems to engage people and say, we have a model for getting virtual care because people are afraid to go to the hospital so they’re not getting their care.” Market these new products and give insurance programs that make no copay or half copay for doing the virtual programs that are cheaper. “Build encouragement like Nike did back in the day saying Hey you have hope, you have a future, it’s going to be okay.” [37:05] Brad asks how he is personally staying “up” in all the chaos and working from home. [37:25] Dan: “I’ve been following the stats and trying to be very very informative with them of where I think things are at, telling them about their future. A lot about where we’re going to be… how we’re using this to leverage on Covid marketing. We’re doing a lot of Covid campaigns so we’ve actually seen an increase in our business during this.” He focuses on being human with them, talking about things like impact on families and ability to be with families. Encourages them to be happy about this time and enjoy it. [38:35] Ken asks for elaboration on 2 points. Do you see this changing the way you guys do business? How so? You mentioned that some business has increased- how has that happened and how have you positioned yourself to not be an opportunist in that place, but actually increase your ability to sell well? [39:08] Dan: “I’d be cautious to say that my business has increased… The first moment of the crisis… it took us less than 24 hours to lose a million dollars in contracts.” But they did reach out to clients and say ‘There are things you CAN do to survive and thrive through this, let’s tell people that you’re creating solutions through this.’ Many were not previously in ecommerce but were brought into that world. [41:15] Ken speaks on the shock of losing that much money in 24 hours. “How’d you lead your company through that? How did you take action without freaking out inside?” [41:30] Dan: “Well first I didn’t take action without freaking. I freaked out… for me it’s a faith thing… once I got past that point, I got to my center.” He began looking at government programs, calling his team to see what was needed and what was missing. Did have some layoffs and gave them a long furlough. He applied to gov’t programs and received assistance that brought real encouragement. [43:08] Ken: “As far as opportunities now, as our entire population shifts, how does this shift your business? You talked about the next wave being owned channels… how are you adjusting?” [43:15] Dan: Hospitals without an address are what will win. Telehealth solutions are the next frontier. “Whoever owns that particular market will dominate the market because it’ll be your first call…” [44:38] Ken asks about the same but for Dan’s agency specifically. [44:41] Dan: “Our own media platform is… we’re starting to do a lot more of things like this, content that’s going out to our clients.” Creating their own studies that allow them to inform their clients of where they rank against competitors in the marketplace. [45:44] Bob asks for advice for young solo-preneurs. As the trend of a solo model is becoming more and more popular and talent and resources are being outsourced more and more, what kind of advice can he give to people in the early stages of business? [46:17] Dan: “A lot of the things that I accidentally did when I started DBA.” Keep a small home office to keep costs down- stay lean. Don’t hire people who talk a big talk for the long haul. “Find your experience partners but keep them at arms length, let them have their own business… bring them in when you need it and pay them a premium for short windows of work. Don’t hire full-time people for part-time problems.” [47:20] Bob asks how to scale this. [47:22] Dan: “I’ll tell you when I get there!” Working in this way has allowed him between 5 and 10M in revenue regularly, but getting beyond that is the challenge. [48:45] Brad asks: “How much approximately of your revenue do you spend on specifically reinventing your company, to move your company to the next wave?” [49:00] Dan: “Great question. Critical question. I nearly killed my company three times by missing the point of this question.” “Innovation is very attractive...so we end up getting distracted sometimes… it can become your core. And there’s no financial model for return on it. So if you put all your effort into innovation, you’re overinvesting.” There is an illustration in his book about this, an 80/20 rule. “New business is not a slice in your pie. It’s a completely separate pie...it has to stay away from your core, it has to be a completely separate entity, a separate model, separate team, separate everything, but you want to make sure you’re central and focused on 80% of your business at all times.” [51:20] Bob asks Dan for info on his book and website.
Summary: In this episode, we have our guest, Dominic Cummins who has been coaching agencies on how to close more business for years. We’re breaking down his process for not only getting more leads, but more importantly, closing more business. The key is changing mindsets around the sales pitch process. With a natural gift in sales and a deep desire to see companies succeed and flourish, Dominic dives into his coaching strategies for agencies of all sizes- from those making less than $1M per year, to those making $50M+ annually. What is the best use of company funds to draw in new clients? Are RFP’s worth it for my business? What if I’m an introverted salesperson with a fearful apprehension of pitching and getting rejected? Today we dive into these questions and more. Resources Mentioned: Robert Collier “Do Me a Favor” Sales Letter Dominic’s RightMind Coaching and Training: https://rightmindinc.com/ Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: It’s not about the number of leads, it’s about the number of leads closed. It’s not about selling, it's about helping. This one mindset shift will change your sales approach especially in this current uncertain economy. Before throwing big time and money at a potential new client with travel expenses and pitches, think about the lifetime value of that client. About our Guest: Dominic Cummins: After over 15 years in corporate America managing sales and marketing teams around the world, he helped a small software company achieve a $500M dollar exit and took the opportunity to start his own coaching practice for agencies. Dominic specializes in bridging the gap between sales and marketing for companies between 50 and 100 million in revenue. Now he helps those within the marketing community through his Apex Path, a mastermind for agency owners to help them find and fulfill their purpose through a profitable agency. Dominic on LinkedIn https://theapexpath.com/ About The Guys: Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob: Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken: Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt Show Notes: [3:00] Bob asks Dominic about his career path. [3:05] Dominic: “I got my brokerage license at 19 and really developed a passion for sales.” He moved up the ladder quickly and by 24 was managing a bank branch but quickly realized that leadership and sales were not the same thing. Has sold all over the world and honed his skills. “Humans all over the world like to buy, but they don’t like to be sold to. Treat them like human beings.” [4:45] Bob asks: What do you think is the thing that agency owners get wrong that you help them adjust when you consult with them?” Dominic responds that there is a prevalent understanding that more leads means more sales. Hubspot/Salesforce fact: The average industry closing percentage, converting qualified opportunities into sales is 11%. Across all industries 24% or 25% is average- this paints a picture that the actual conversion isn’t being taken advantage of enough. Leads are expensive, algorithms make it even more challenging. So focusing on purely getting more leads is similar to filling up a leaky bucket over and over again. [7:35] Ken asks: “Why do you think people focus on leads?” [8:02] Dominic: “Well it has to do with comfort level… what I see with agencies is they just default to their level of comfort… I’ll get more people into the top of my funnel, and naturally as they fall through I’ll get more leads.” Cost probably adds to this tendency, but also comfort level plays into it a lot. [8:50] Bob: “It’s also easier, right? It’s easier to focus on getting that lead versus doing the hard work of the sales process.” [8:57] Brad adds that a lot of lead funnels are automatic once set up. This allows owners to go and do something else while something else is running in the background to generate more leads. Asks: “What’s the percentage of closing deals based on the way they came into the agency?” [9:58] Dominic responds to Brad’s comment on automation. For smaller companies at $1.5-$2 million in revenue, the lead flow is on some sort of autopilot. But for agencies with less than a million, there is virtually no automation in their funnels. [10:58] Dominic continues: “If you look at the typical conversion of cold traffic to a sale, it’s somewhere between 3 and 5% at most. That varies a little bit by industry, but completely cold traffic is somewhere between 3 and 5%.” Telemarketing averages 11 to 15%. Significantly harder to do, reward is greater. Next level up is face to face- 30-40%, or 70-80% if it’s a referral. These are more expensive to invest in, but the reward is much much larger. [13:37] Bob asks for an example of applying what he’s talking about with a larger, $20-$50M agency. [14:00] Dominic: “The principles are still the same, but at that point, lead generation has to be a component. All three of those things that I mentioned. Keeping in mind that most companies of that size are looking to sell eventually, keeping that automation of leads in line and going strong is really valuable.” “You’ve gotta have it all.” For smaller agencies we use the expression a lot “You’ve got to stay close to the transaction.” [16:11] Ken mentions that there is an excitement around generating leads, it’s definitely prevalent. For those who have wound up in agency ownership without being super intentional about it, going with what you know or what is familiar to you is easy to do. [18:30] Brad asks: How much percentage of your total revenue should go into sales efforts? [18:52] Dominic: “For a company to be considered a healthy venture capital acquisition, our cost of acquisition had to be between 18 and 22%... it did not necessarily benefit you to be lower than that…. I just say that 20% of acquisition costs is a good number.” Factor in other things: sales rep salaries, tech staff to support the sales team, lead costs [20:48] Brad responds that at a certain point you have to ask “how much more are we going to throw into acquiring a new customer?” It really depends on understanding the customer's value in a year or two- you have to weigh that. [21:57] Dominic adds: “If it costs you $20K to acquire a customer but you only cash collect $5K, $20K to acquire the next few and only cash collect $10K, you’ve spent $40K to only cash collect $15K- you’re broke.” [24:23] Ken adds: “If you don’t know your profit margin on the services you provide, that makes it even harder.” [25:15] Brad: Talk about how you can judge what is worth your time versus when you might need to walk away from an RFP. [26:12] Dominic responds: “If you’re less than a million dolars, I don’t think you should play in the RFP world because there’s too much rent. As you get larger, that’s fine, you can take that risk.” RFP’s will take up time and energy that most likely won't’ work for smaller companies. RFP’s have procurement specialists, etc. if this is going to be the way you build relationships. Working with ESPN came through an RFP that they introduced based on relationship building- it was a year worth of relationship building. [30:00] Ken adds that his perspective is a bit different. “It’s basically gambling with a lot of money and a lot of time, time being even more expensive than they money side of it.” [30:25] Brad adds that he only participates in RFP’s if a client has already told him they were in the running- there has to be a sense of possibility in it in order for it to be worth it. [31:37] Ken adds that RFP’s are notoriously a pain, as they set up the relationship dynamic very poorly. One party will invest a lot of time and effort to “the royalty” in hopes of getting “knighted”... this creates an imbalance in the relationship. [32:54] Bob: “If I’m a business owner and I want to get a bunch of work done, I need to shop around to get the best price.” [33:23] Ken: “There is a bar that the RFP process often goes over in pitching, which is beyond ‘here’s what i think it will cost’ to the point where you’re spending $50K to send 5 peopel out there and throw a pitch at them along with the RFP.” [34:00] Dominic adds: Often RFP’s are used a lot in the government, when vetting of security clearances is necessary, etc. [35:48] Brad asks: “What advice would you give someone who doesn’t have a ton of money to send people out and fly around… where woudl you put the energy?” [37:00] Dominic responds: “Work your network… stay close to people and talk to them.” Ask those close to you for their opinions, get their buy-in and keep them in the loop about what you’re up to, what you’re looking at. Recalls a Robert Collier letter- asking for a favor. “That principle of just going to the people that you know and asking a simple question, would you do me a favor.” People love to give you their opinion, people love to do favors. Work your network and focus on that. [42:36] Brad: “I seem to avoid that human contact because I’m kind of afraid of rejection.” Learn from it, refine. [43:15] Dominic adds that when you do meet people in person, think of it the same way you do with CTA’s on a landing page. That landing page isn’t meant to make the sale, it’s meant to encourage the visitor to opt-in. So when you meet someone in person, think of it as trying to get them to “opt-in” instead of making a hard sale. Will you opt-in to having lunch? Will you opt-in on giving me your opinion? [44:50] Ken adds that: “If you switch the idea or the mindset- when I meet someone I’m not trying to sell them, talk about my resume, make them think I’m awesome. I’m just trying to gather information- then you don’t have to fear the rejection so badly.” “I’m curious to know if there are any tactics specifically that you can do to help increase your tolerance for rejection as a human being.” [46:39] Dominic: “It feels less like rejection when all you’ve done is offered to help. If they choose not to take your help, that’s not rejecting you. They’ve rejected the help… which doesn’t make sense to most people.” You’re just providing Value in Advance- you’re earning more time with them by giving them value and have those conversations with them. “It feels less like a transaction and more like a natural flow.” “The best salespeole that I know are introverted. I am an introvert. But I know that I can provide help for agency owners. I know I can make them better, and that passion drives me, and so I offer that help in as many ways as I can.” [48:40] Brad adds that changing the mindset is super helpful. Asks “Who is the right team when you’re pitching?” [50:10] Dominic: “Avoid founder selling syndrome, where the founder is really the only one who can make the sales- and that’s because your sales process isn’t good enough, you’re not articulating it well enough to teach other people to do it.” [50:45] Dominic mentions Make RC who runs large podcasts and has an agency that caters specifically to certain kinds of gyms. His model is that everyone on his team is a salesperson. He does sales training for the entire company every morning- 15 minutes every morning and they’re all getting training. “Nothing but good for your company.” [52:19] Bob asks one final question: What would you say is the one thing that any business of any size could do that could generate more referral business for them? [52:54] Dominic: “Treat them well. We are very good at following up on a sales basis.” “Look for any opportunity to just have a conversation that doesn’t have anything to do with your fulfillment… find reasons to talk to them and just general relationship reasons because you want to become invaluable… Stay on top of mind from a sales perspective.” Treat your customer base like you would your telemarketing base. Stay in touch. Call them all the time.” [55:13] Dominic plugs his website: apexpath.com or follow him on LinkedIn!
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing the Differences Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 3) Bob: Engaged couples often look at one another and think, “We're so much alike!” Then, after they have been married for a little while, they look at each other and think, “Who are you?!” Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: What happens when we're engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike. We love each other so much—we'll never have clashes.” I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating. All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now what do I do?” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, February 15th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. So what advice would you give to young wives and their husbands about the adjustments we make in marriage? We're going to hear what Barbara Rainey has to say about that today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I am really enjoying learning lots of new things about you, Barbara. Dennis: You're eavesdropping. Bob: Well, it's legitimate eavesdropping because of what your wife's been writing about. This has been so much fun to read. [Laughter] Dennis: I think I want to welcome her to FamilyLife Today—Sweetheart. Barbara: Maybe we don't; huh? [Laughter] Dennis: This is my bride, and she has plenty of stories to tell. Bob: And she has just recently—by the way, welcome, Barbara—nice to have you here. Barbara: Thank you, Bob. Bob: You've been collecting these stories, not to share with the world your stories, but really to mentor—you've become an e-mentor; haven't you? Barbara: Yes. I'm really writing this for six women / six young women, who happen to be my four daughters and two daughters-in-law—to share with them the lessons that I've learned over all these years of marriage in hopes that it will encourage them, and give them hope, and help them—help them persevere for the long haul. 2:00 Dennis: But it actually started—back to Bob's point about—from an e-mentoring standpoint—really started on the internet— Barbara: It did. That's right; I had forgotten. Dennis: —as you were writing emails to your daughters and daughters-in-law so that you'd be able to coach them / encourage them in the process. Bob: Did you start doing this right after Ashley got married? Barbara: No; actually, it was after our two boys got married. They got married the same summer—the summer of 2001. One of those two girls asked me if I would give her some advice on being a wife. I thought: “Wow! She really wants my advice?” I thought, “If she cracked the door open a little bit, I'm going to just walk right on through while the door's open!” I said, “Sure, I'd love to!” I began writing a series of letters in the fall of 2001 to my two brand-new daughters-in-law and to my daughter, Ashley, who, by then, had been married four years. Bob: A lot of—a wife will hear you say that and they'll think, ““Boy, if somebody asked me, I wouldn't know where to start or what to say.” 3:00 But it sounds like you were ready to dive right in with wisdom. Barbara: Well, I don't know that I would say it that way, but I was ready to dive in—in the sense that I felt like, “Now was the time,” because all new brides are extremely teachable—they're eager, they want to learn, they want to do it right, they don't want to make mistakes—they really love this guy they just married. They're most teachable and most coachable in those early years. I wanted to begin by sort of exploiting that—in a sense, in a good way—by saying: “Here are some things that I learned / here are some lessons I learned along the way. Here are some stories of what we went through / what I've learned from it. Perhaps, it will be helpful.” Dennis: Over the years, we've—who knows how many hundreds of Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways have been held by FamilyLife—we've looked into the eyes of those in attendance. 4:00 It does seem that the engaged couples and the newly-marrieds are, not only on a steep learning curve, but they're much more teachable and kind of spongy in terms of soaking in the truth. What we wanted to do—and what I encouraged Barbara to do with this book—is take advantage of a window into the soul to speak a lot of relevant truth that she's learned, as a woman from the Scriptures and from other older women who have coached her, and really help these young wives get started on the right trajectory. Bob: They didn't ask you about a specific subject. They just said, “Help me be a wife.” How did you know, “Okay; I'll start here”? Barbara: Well, what I did is—I just thought back to those early days in our marriage and tried to remember: “What were the lessons that I learned? What did I do right? What did I do wrong?” Bob: Like that early romantic date that Dennis took you on? Barbara: Yes, like that one. Bob: Tell our listeners about—[Laughter] Barbara: You like this; don't you? [Laughter] 5:00 Bob: —how ““Prince Charming” swept you off your feet. [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. While we were dating in the summer of 1972, which was of course in the dark ages—one Saturday / it was probably on a Friday afternoon Dennis asked if I wanted to hang out on Saturday afternoon. I said, “Sure.” He picked me up in his— Bob: Now, let me interrupt you just so we get a context. Barbara: Okay. Bob: You guys had been friends for years— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —since college. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Right. Bob: [To Barbara] After college, you went to the east coast and worked with Campus Crusade. Barbara: Correct. Dennis: University of South Carolina. Bob: [To Dennis] Where did you go? Dennis: I was in Dallas/Ft. Worth area, working with high school kids. Bob: You kept up your friendship— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —but there was nothing romantic between the two of you. Barbara: No, nothing romantic. We had been really good friends for three years. I really thought of Dennis as a brother—he was just a great, great friend. Dennis: She showed up in Dallas and needed to be shown around—kind of where everything was / kind of how you get around—so I'd pick her up, take her to work. Bob: Now, were you thinking of her like your sister at this point? 6:00 Dennis: Yes, I really was. It was not romantic—it really wasn't—which is really a cheap shot on your part—[Laughter]—to call out this thing that I took her on as a romantic date because we were just hanging out! Barbara: That's right—we were. Bob: Was this before—this date we're about to talk about—was this before or after you had tried to hold hands with her in the parking lot? Dennis: Way before. Barbara: I have no idea. Dennis: Way before. Bob: Really? Barbara: I would think so—yes. Dennis: Oh, yes; oh, yes. Bob: Okay. Barbara: I would guess. Bob: It's just friends: “Hey, do you want to hang out tomorrow?” Dennis: Yes. I'd take her back to her apartment, and we'd kind of sit on the stairs and talk— Barbara: Yes. Bob: Just visit. Dennis: —until about 2:00 in the morning—[Laughter]—just like a couple of friends. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Yes. Barbara: Yes. [Dennis laughing] Bob: Okay. So he says, “Do you want to hang out tomorrow?” and he comes and picks you up. Barbara: He did. Bob: Did you know where you were going? Barbara: You know, I don't remember—it was too long ago. I don't remember if I knew or not, but I knew it was casual. I knew we were going to go on a picnic. He took me to some remote place outside of Dallas/Ft. Worth— 7:00 Bob: Now wait. I've got to stop you here. You're taking her on a picnic. You're not taking your buddy—“Let's go hang out,”— on a picnic. There's more going on here in your mind [Barbara laughing] than just, “Let's hang out together.” Dennis: She needed to understand where the riverbanks were— Bob: Alright. Barbara: Like I really care! Bob: We understand one another here; okay. So he picks you up? [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. We take off to parts unknown because I'd never really been in Texas in my life. I didn't know where we were going, but I trusted him. We show up at this stream, or river, or pool of water, or something—I don't know where it was! Dennis: I don't know where it was—it was below a dam somewhere. Barbara: Gosh; I couldn't begin to tell you. Dennis: It was murky / it was fishy-smelling. It was a great date! Barbara: All I know is he pulls out a fishing pole—fishing rod / fishing thing—I didn't know what a fishing thing was! [Laughter] Oh, how funny! Bob: One of the things you observed or learned, when you shared this story with your daughters—it was really to talk about the fact that, in relationships, you've got to make some adjustments and be ready for the fact that you're two very different people. Barbara: Exactly; because after we married, about three months later, we moved to Colorado. 8:00 In Colorado, there was abundant fishing. Bob: You married three months later—after the fishing date? Barbara: Yes! Dennis: You caught up on that small detail. [Laughter] Bob: I just thought our listeners ought to be aware. [Laughter] It went from zero to sixty. Dennis: I'm a man of action, Bob. Bob: This was a sports car relationship. [Laughter] So, from the day you said, “Will you…” to the day you said, “I do,”— Barbara: —was six weeks. Bob: Six weeks? Barbara: Six weeks. Bob: You said, “I'll be the Fish Queen for as long as we both shall live.” [Laughter] Dennis: Then, on our honeymoon, I took her camping and trout fishing. [Laughter] We need to get to the point of the book though—she's talking about how we, as men and women, are different. Barbara: That's right. Dennis: I mean, we did start out our marriage—really, not polar opposites—because we enjoyed one another. Barbara: Yes, we had a great time; but, had you asked me what I would have pictured for the early years of our marriage, I would not have pictured traipsing around in the mountains— 9:00 —fishing, and camping, and all of those things—because none of that was a part of my background, growing up. They were totally brand-new experiences. I learned, by those experiences, that marrying someone is merging together two vastly different—not just personalities—but life experiences. As Dennis used to say, all the time, “It's like merging two countries.” Bob: Yes. Barbara: Because we are very different, as men and women—we're very different in our life experiences / our outlook—everything is different. So those early years are years of discovery. What you do with what you discover sets the tone and the foundation for your marriage. Bob: Obviously, we're talking to Barbara Rainey, who is joining us today on FamilyLife Today. We're talking about the wisdom that you want to pass on to younger women—specifically to your daughters—about being a wife. You've just written a book called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. 10:00 What are the big ideas that you want to pass on to your daughters in this area of marital differences? Barbara: First of all—the first big idea is that there are going to be differences. It‘s normal to be diametrically opposite on all kinds of fronts. Because what happens—when we're engaged / and dating but then engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike, and we love each other so much—we'll never have clashes. Yes; if we do, we can handle them. We love each other so much that it's not going to be difficult.” I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating. Bob: Yes. Barbara: All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now, what do I do?” Bob: We have this tendency to think different means wrong. Barbara: Wrong; yes. 11:00 Bob: “This is the way I think; and it's the way I think naturally. So I must be right; and if you think differently, we need to fix you so you think like me.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: That's part of the awakening and adjusting that both wives and husbands have to do in the early stages of a relationship; right? Barbara: Exactly; because that's one of the beautiful things about marriage—is how it broadens our perspective. I write about that in telling these stories about fishing. I knew nothing about fishing; but because of who I married, the horizons of my life have been greatly expanded and broadened. I could have either fought that, and resisted that, and said: “I don't want any part of that! That's foreign to me. I don't like it”; but by embracing who he was, and his differences as a person, my life is much richer because of that. I think, if we can encourage these young wives—and husbands too / but this is for the wives right now—to welcome those differences as an opportunity to grow as an individual, it will make it easier. Dennis: I like what you wrote in your book here— 12:00 —you said: “These new realities created some minor earthquakes in my life—rumblings that shook my familiar, comfortable foundation. I was discovering that we were not as much alike as I'd originally thought. We were opposites who were attracted to one another but found ourselves, like magnets, that repel each other.” And then she goes on to write about how I would make a decision compared to how she would make one. Bob: Yes. Dennis: I'd see something that needed to be done or something I felt like we ought to go do—I'd process at the speed of light and off we'd go. Bob: Right. Dennis: Barbara, on the other hand, processes a little slower. In fact— Barbara: —a lot slower. Dennis: —a lot slower. Barbara: Is that what you were going to say? Bob: A little more thoughtfully—with a little broader perspective. Dennis: I've been enriched by that, but I promise you—if, early in our marriage, we had set up war with one another in two separate bunkers. 13:00 You could easily have built a case between two very different people, who had started out their marriage together, but now really can't get along and don't see one another—as we teach at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—as “God's perfect gift for you.” Bob: You describe how you began to approach these differences in your marriage. You call it the “Bookend Principle.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: Explain what that is. Barbara: The Bookend Principle is something that Dennis and I practiced with one another; and then, after the fact, sort of came up with the name for that. What we have done through the years is—when we've had disagreements over our differences or conversations trying to understand one another—we would say to each other: “I love you, and I would marry you all over again. This may be hard, this may be confusing, this may be difficult—it may not be fixed in a single conversation, like we would always like; but that's okay. I love you and I'm committed to you, and I would do it all over again.” 14:00 That statement of reaffirmation of our vows and commitment to one another provides a level of security to continue to have these discussions about our differences. I think it's a good habit. It was a good habit for us because you can get so caught up in how different we are—and how his differences grate on me or make life difficult for me and my differences make life difficult for him—that you can subtly switch to becoming enemies rather than allies. Bob: Were there times, or events, or evenings when you weren't sure you loved him and you weren't sure you'd marry him all over again? Barbara: No. There were times when I didn't feel loving—without question—but I never got to the place where I thought, “This was a big mistake,” because I knew that God had called us to marry each other. I knew that we were doing what we were supposed to do. So, therefore, if this was God's will, and it was, then He would enable us to figure it out with time. Bob: That issue was settled. Barbara: Yes; “Done.” Bob: That wasn't open for reevaluation— Barbara: No. Bob: —reexamination— Barbara: No. Bob: —re-discussion. 15:00 At some point—when you stood and said, “I do,”—the ships were burned. You weren't going to reconsider whether— Barbara: I think that's the mistake too many young couples are making today—is they get into it, and it becomes difficult—instead of saying, “We can work this out,” they say, “Gosh; we must have made a mistake.” They move to, “This is a mistake, and maybe there's a way out,” rather than, “We can find a way through this / we can make it work,” and stick with it for the long haul. Dennis: I look back on our marriage. I don't remember ever entertaining the thought. And I mean by entertaining—I'm talking about cultivating the thought that I'd made a mistake. I do wonder, looking back on it—this Bookend Principle of kind of starting out with a commitment that says, “I love you,” and then maybe, in the midst of an argument or after the argument has been exhausted, you say again: “I'm committed to you. I'd marry you all over again.” 16:00 It creates a safe place for two imperfect, very different people to hammer out their relationship together. I think we're an instant culture that is not used to having to take a lifetime to achieve this thing called “oneness.” What we were doing, back then—we were going through some very hard ground. I mean, it had not been plowed before—two very independent people—who had joined together in marriage, and who did rub one another the wrong way, and who, in their differences, missed each other over, and over, and over again—and, as a result, mis-communicated, disappointed, hurt one another. How do you maintain a relationship in the midst of that if you're not committed? Bob: I think it's important because we can laugh about fishing dates, and whether you like fishing or not; but a lot of folks, who are listening, are going, “Look, our differences are not around whether you like fishing or not— Barbara: Yes; exactly. 17:00 Bob: “Our differences are around core, fundamental, deeply-held issues in life. The fact that we're miles apart on this—I just don't know how to live with a husband / or a wife who does not embrace what's dear to me at the center of my being.” Barbara: Yes. That is a very difficult place to be. Even though Dennis and I never really had a crisis quite to that depth, we missed each other plenty of times. There are seasons in a marriage when it's very dry and when there doesn't feel like there's much life. I would have to say that: “There is hope. There's always hope, as long as we have breath, that if you are committed and you are teachable—both of you are teachable—and you hang in there, there will be a solution, given time.” I think that we expect too much too quickly. We would like to have it happen quickly—I would like to have it happen more quickly too, but that's just not the way of a marriage. 18:00 A marriage is slow, steady growth over a long length of time. Dennis: If you go back to Genesis, Chapters 2 and 3, the way God commands a marriage to start is He commanded a man and a woman to leave father and mother. He commanded them to cleave to one another / to be committed to one another. And third, He commanded them to receive one another—to receive the other person as God's gift for you. If you practice those three concepts—leave, cleave, and receive—over, and over, and over again—if you practice that in your marriage / especially, in the early years—it doesn't mean it's ever going to be easy. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: I asked Barbara how she would summarize our marriage. I was kind of hoping for “romantic,” [Laughter] “chill bumps”— Barbara: —“wonderful.” Dennis: You know? But instead, you said? Barbara: “It's been hard.” Dennis: “Hard work.” Barbara: “Hard work”; yes. 19:00 Dennis: Lots of hard work. I think a lot of young couples—and for that matter, older couples—are starting out marriages today not really expecting it to be as challenging and to demand perseverance like it does Bob: I just have to come back around here because you're right in this section of your book that—not only did your marriage start off with fishing—but through the years you've learned to enjoy hunting with your husband? [Laughter] Is that true? Barbara: Well, not by his definition; no. Not by— Dennis: I was waiting for the answer to that question. Bob: I'm going to read to you what you wrote. Barbara: Okay; okay. Read what I wrote. Bob: “And I have learned to appreciate hunting.” Barbara: Yes, “appreciate it.” Bob: Maybe “appreciate” is a better word than— Barbara: “Appreciate” is a better word. Yes Bob: “I actually went with him on an elk hunt a few years ago— Barbara: Yes. I did. Bob: — “with the camo, the face paint, and the human scent killers sprayed on my body.” Barbara: [Laughing] I did! Barbara and Bob: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter] Bob: That's what you say right here: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter] 20:00 “We hiked and hiked and snuck up on a herd of elk hiding behind trees like clandestine spies following a double agent down a dark alley in Eastern Europe. It was really fun!” Barbara: It was fun! [Laughter] Bob: But the point is that we're going to face these differences in the first years of our marriage. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Some of them crop up ten years in—fifteen. It's a life-long process of understanding “We're different,” and making those adjustments. Barbara: Exactly. That really is the point that I'm trying to make with these girls—is that the differences are there—they're not to be changed and they're going to be there for life. I think we somehow assume, early on, that a lot of this stuff is going to subside, or change, or moderate; but who we are is who we are. I'm just amazed at how little really changes over time. You either fight it, and resent it, and resist it, or you join and learn to actually enjoy it and appreciate it. 21:00 Now, do I love to go hunting? No. I enjoyed that because it was active. We were hiking in the mountains, and it was beautiful. Dennis: And it was warm. Barbara: And it was reasonably warm; yes. But the kind of hunting that he is often inviting me to go on—which I have refused—is the kind where you get up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, in the winter, and you go sit. You can't talk / you can hardly breathe, and it's freezing. [Laughter] Hiking in the mountains—we could talk as we went—until we actually saw the elk / then we had to be quiet. It was a much different kind of experience so I could appreciate that one. But sitting in a deer stand—I've done it once and I'm not real interested in going there again. Bob: The point is—you don't have to be interested in going there again to make your marriage work. This is a part of the dance. One of your chapters in your book, “Marriage Is Like Beautiful Dancing”— 22:00 —“Part of the dance is understanding what we do together and where it's better to leave each other some space and some time to do things apart.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: I just think you have given some real great practical wisdom to a lot of wives in what you've written in your book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. It's brand new, and you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com to request your copy. Or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and ask for the book, Letters to My Daughters, when you get in touch with us. Now, as both of you guys know, this is our 40th anniversary as a ministry—2016. All year long, we are celebrating anniversaries. Today, we want to congratulate Abigail and Angelo Pinheiro. They live in Princeton, New Jersey. They listen to FamilyLife Today on WFIL. They're celebrating 21 years of marriage today. “Congratulations!” to the Pinheiros—“Happy Anniversary!” 23:00 We'd love to help you celebrate your anniversary this year. In fact, if you will go to FamilyLifeToday.com and leave us your anniversary date, we'll have some suggestions for you this year on how this year's anniversary can be the best anniversary ever. It's all because we are the “Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries.” There are a lot of anniversaries that have happened over the years because of how God has used FamilyLife in people's lives for 40 years now. Thanks to those of you who make FamilyLife possible. We're listener-supported—we depend on your donations in order for this ministry to exist. This month, we're hoping that God might raise up, in every state where FamilyLife Today is heard, 20 new families who would join us as Legacy Partners. We're asking you—if you're a regular FamilyLife Today listener / if God's used this ministry in your life: “Would you be one of the families in your state to help support this program?” It's easy to do—go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, “DONATE.” 24:00 There is information there about becoming a Legacy Partner or about how you can make a one-time gift to FamilyLife Today. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also call and say, “I'm interested in becoming a Legacy Partner.” We'll explain the whole process to you when you call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Now, tomorrow, we're going to talk about the spiritual foundation in a marriage and how important that is. Barbara Rainey will be back with us. Hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. 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FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Being His Helper Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 3 of 3) Bob: The Bible calls women to be helpers to their husbands; but as Barbara Rainey points out—sometimes, when you're trying to help, you're not helping. Barbara: I think, in most women's hearts, we do start out—in the early years, especially—genuinely wanting to help. It switches somewhere, along the line—to becoming a control issue, to becoming a management issue, to becoming a critical issue—where I am being his mother and not his helper. I'm being his parent and not his partner. I think that is the lesson—it's that we, as women / we, as wives, need to be aware and to recognize when it does and to say: “Oh yeah! I need to be his friend. We're peers, we're equals, we're teammates; and we can work this out together,” rather than it—letting it become this great obstacle. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, February 17th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How can a wife be a helper to her husband? 1:00 We're going to explore that today with Barbara Rainey. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I had somebody share something with me a long time ago. I always thought this was interesting—they were talking about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our life. They were saying that the word for the Holy Spirit in the Bible is the word, Paraclete. Dennis: Right. Bob: What they said was: “There's a difference between a paraclete and a parasite. A parasite is something that attaches itself to you and just sucks the life out of you.” Dennis: Right. Bob: “A paraclete is something that attaches itself to you and pours life into you.” I mean, that's always stuck with me. I've thought, “That's not only true of our relationship with the Holy Spirit—He does attach Himself to us and pours life into us—but all of our relationships tend to be parasite or paraclete relationships”; don't you think? Dennis: They do. It's interesting— 2:00 —that in the Scripture, God refers to Himself as our Helper. I think the Holy Spirit is our Helper. Bob: Yes. Dennis: He comforts us / He gives us the power to live the Christian life. Bob: Jesus said, “I will send another Helper,”—indicating that He had been the Helper. So Helper really—God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit—are all identified as “Helper.” Dennis: That's right; but if you go all the way back to the beginning of the Bible, the first use of the word, “helper,” is not referring to God but referring to the woman that God made for man. Bob: Yes. Dennis: I know, for Barbara, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today—Barbara, welcome back. Barbara: Thank you. Dennis: She's written a book that is—was first written for our daughters, as they married, and our daughters-in-law as they married our sons. One of the first sections of the book talks about the role of being a helper. You believe that's important; don't you? Barbara: I do. I think that we have come to think of helper in a more negative sense——more as a servant. 3:00 Yet, when you go back to the very beginning—as you were just talking about a minute ago—and realize that God used that term to describe the woman / to describe Eve when He made her. He called her helper before the whole thing broke down and fell apart in the Garden. It wasn't Plan B—it wasn't: “Oh, well; now, that you've made mistakes, and I'm kicking you out of the Garden, and you're going to have to start living in a different place—now, you have to be the helper,”—it was helper from the very beginning. If we really focus on that, and think about that, it means that I was made, as a female, to be a helper—I was built for that, I was fashioned for that, I was designed for that. It's not a second thought / it's not Plan B—it's not an afterthought. It's intuitive in who I am, as a female, to be helper in the same way that God is helper to us. Bob: You say, in the book—when you got married, you say, “I was eager to begin being my husband's helper; but beyond cooking for him and doing our laundry, I honestly had no idea what the concept / the assignment really meant.” 4:00 Barbara: Yes. Bob: I think there are a lot of women who, when they hear the term, “helper,”—they think, “What is it if it's not cooking, cleaning, and laundry?” Barbara: Those things are a part of what each individual couple works out—who does the cooking / who does the laundry. All of that is a creative blend of the two that are in the marriage unit. And often— Bob: Who does the cooking at your house? I'm just curious— Barbara: Well, you know, right now, he does! [Laughter] Dennis: But for the past 35 years, she did! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. Bob: You've given— Dennis: So I've got—I've got a long time—[Laughter] Barbara: I delegated! [Laughter] Dennis: —I've got a long time to catch up in this deal. Barbara: Yes; yes. We have traded places on that one; but the point is—is that, oftentimes and through the centuries, most women have done those tasks in the marriage relationship. That isn't really what helper is all about. Helper is far greater than that—it's me completing my husband. 5:00 It's me—and who I am, and the way God made me, as a woman and as an individual—completing him, making him better than he is on his own or making him more complete / more fulfilled. It's me helping him, though the years, become all God intended for him to be. It's far more of a person-building / it's far more of a relationship-building concept than it is just tasks around the house, which is what we've relegated it to. Bob: The phrase I used—the paraclete—to attach yourself to him and pour life into him. Barbara: Yes. Bob: There really is something that a wife can—she can pour life into her husband; can't she? Barbara: Oh, absolutely. That's why I have written about it in this section—about the example that the Holy Spirit is to us because the Holy Spirit does give us life. I think, in ways that we, as women, don't realize—we give life to our husbands. I think the analogies between the two are great. Bob: You're not saying your role is to be the Holy Spirit to your husband. 6:00 Barbara: No. [Laughter] I am not to be the Holy Spirit, and convict him of sin, any more than he is to be Jesus Christ for me. But we model— Bob: But you can learn; yes. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Yes. Barbara: —he models and imitates what Christ did in His sacrifice—and I can model my helping and being a helper after what the Holy Spirit does for us. Dennis: Before we talk about what it means to truly be the helper, one of the things you believe strongly that it's not—is it's not being your husband's mother. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Explain what you mean by that. Barbara: I think what happens is—when we women have children and we become, not just wife, but wife and mother—there are a lot of things that we do, as mother, that are helping tasks. We're constantly helping our children get dressed, we're helping learn to tie their shoes, we help them learn to read, we help them with their homework, we help them get dressed, we help them in relationship issues when they've got friends and they've got problems in elementary school, junior high, and high school. 7:00 We are very much a helper with our children, but it's an authoritative kind of helper. I'm the one in charge, and my child is to follow me. What happens so often in marriage is—that we wives forget sometimes to switch from being helper as mother to being helper as wife—and they're very different. I'm not an authority with my husband / I'm not his teacher. For me to help him as if I am his teacher and he is to be my pupil—that's backwards / that's wrong. That's not the kind of relationship that I'm supposed to have with him as a helper. Bob: And you're supposed to be able to switch gears on the fly on that kind of a deal? Barbara: Yes, I think so; but that's where it gets tricky. [Laughter] Bob: So what does it look like if it's not the kind of helper you would be with a kindergartener or a seventh grader? How is it different? Barbara: It's different because I have a peer-relationship with my husband—we are equals. I am not a peer with my child—I'm an authority with my child. That's the fundamental difference. 8:00 For instance, Dennis and I had a conversation not too long ago. I don't know if you'll remember this—but we recently remodeled our living room. We got our couch recovered—because the kids are gone, we got it recovered in a very light color fabric, which I would have never done when we were raising kids. Now, that it's just the two of us—we can handle this. Not long after we had finished the remodeling, we had gotten the couch back from being reupholstered. We were eating, and Dennis wanted to eat in the living room. He plopped down on the couch— Bob: I know where this is going. [Laughter] Barbara: —with his plate. Bob: Yes! [Laughter] Dennis: Never happened at your place; has it Bob? Bob: It wasn't spaghetti; was it? I hope it wasn't spaghetti. Barbara: No, it wasn't spaghetti—I don't know what it was. As we sat there, I'm thinking: “This isn't going to work. This isn't what I had in mind. I don't think this is a really good place to be eating our dinner.” We began—we had a conversation; and I said, “What would you think about always eating over there at the table?” He said, “I really would like to eat and watch TV some.” 9:00 Anyway, the point is that we talked through: “Where would be an acceptable place for him to eat, in the living room, where he could watch TV—watch a football game on Saturday afternoon.” We decided the couch is not where he would eat. He would eat over there in the chair—it's on a part of the carpet that doesn't stain as easily as the part in front of the couch does. Dennis: Actually, what she encouraged me to do is run— Barbara: So are you saying you don't remember it this way? [Laughter] Dennis: —run an extension cord outside and eat it in a lawn chair in front of the TV in the yard. [Laughter] Barbara: Where there is a hose! [Laughter] Bob: You didn't put a bib on him or [Laughter] say, “You sit in this chair.” Dennis: We were just talking about being a mother; were we not? Barbara: That's right; we were! Bob: That's what—so this is an illustration of how you help your husband? [Laughter] Barbara: Well, it's an illustration of how I—yes, how I help him [Laughter] eat like an adult— Dennis: We worked it out. Barbara: We did! Dennis: We worked it out, and it is okay. I do think the point is—if you listen carefully to the illustration Barbara gave, we had a discussion. Barbara: —as peers. 10:00 I wasn't telling you that you couldn't eat on the couch—I said: “Would you be willing to eat over there?” / “Could we work out a compromise?” was the gist of the conversation. Dennis: What I'd want a man to hear in the midst of this is that he has a very important assignment—to respect his wife, and her opinion, and her values, and what she's about at that point—not just do what he wants to do. Philippians 2—we've quoted that many times, here on FamilyLife Today: “…not merely looking out for your own interests but for the interests of others.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: These little confrontations we're talking about here are a clash of values. They don't have to turn out and become where the wife ends up being the mother of the husband. Bob: You tell about, how in your marriage—when you are travelling, back in the days before cell phones— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —you used to mother your husband in the airport? Barbara: Yes. You know what's interesting about this dilemma for women is—I don't think we start out with that kind of an attitude. 11:00 I think we genuinely/sincerely want to help. It just sort of evolves into a more parental attitude without even trying. For instance, in the airport, when we used to travel before cell phones, Dennis would always want to make good use of his time. He'd walk across the area to another gate—wherever there happened to be a pay phone—and he would start making phone calls. I would sit in the waiting area and watch as every last passenger boarded the plane. They were about to close the door, and he was still on the phone. Initially, I remember thinking: “He must not know that they're boarding the plane. He must have not been paying attention.” I would get up and go over, and motion at the gate, and motion at my watch. He'd go, “I know; I know.” He'd get off the phone, and we'd get on the plane. Then the next time I would do the same thing. After a while, I started to become irritated because I thought, “I have to remind him all the time.” Dennis: How many flights have we missed? Barbara: Well, that's the point! We never missed a flight because you were on the phone! [Laughter] 12:00 But initially, I genuinely thought he didn't know what time it was and that he didn't—he was so engaged in the phone call that he didn't realize they were boarding. I wanted to help so that we didn't miss the flight. Over time, it became more of a parental attitude on my part. Dennis: I was going to say—I was going to say that—parental. Barbara: It really was because I thought: ‘What's the deal? Why can't he get off the phone, and we can board with everybody else?” Then I started becoming critical. So my point is—is that I think what we struggle with, as wives, is not necessarily starting out with a condescending attitude or a parental attitude. We really, genuinely want to help from our hearts; but it just sort of goes downhill sometimes. Dennis: Let me take that, as an illustration though, and just ask this question: “How can a wife, in a situation like that, be a true helper?” The point here is—you're not going to answer that question in the heat of the moment. You do it some other time when you're not travelling. 13:00 The wife just simply says to her husband, “When everybody's boarding, what would you like me to do?” Barbara: Exactly—which is what I finally did. Dennis: “Would you like me to come over and let you know, or am I to just trust you with that?” At that point— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —it is two peers respecting each other—and the husband feeling like he's being trusted. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: He may—as I did—he may want her help. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Okay? That's good! You're working as teammates at that point. I think, at critical times like this—we allow these little rough spots like this to become major disagreements—at which we have a big argument and it ends up ruining the trip. Bob: As I read through this part of the book, I have to confess to you that I think one of the challenges that I think a lot of wives / a lot of women struggle with is the issue of control. Barbara: Yes; definitely. Bob: “I want to be in control of my environment. I feel safer if I'm in control of things.” Barbara: No question; no question. 14:00 Bob: So this impulse to want to be a helper—sometimes is not, “I want to help my husband,”—it's: “I want to manage my husband— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“and control my husband because I feel more comfortable.” You're waving and saying, “Everybody else is boarding,”—not because you're trying to help him—but because you're getting nervous, and you'd like to get on the plane. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And he needs to hurry up and get on there with you. Barbara: No question. Bob: It's not helping—it's controlling. Barbara:And that's why I'm saying it's a difficult thing because I think, in most women's hearts, we do start out—in the early years, especially—genuinely wanting to help. It switches somewhere, along the line—to becoming a control issue, to becoming a management issue, to becoming a critical issue—where I am being his mother and not his helper. I'm being his parent and not his partner. I think that is the lesson is that we, as women / we, as wives, need to be aware—that that shift happens—and to recognize when it does and to say: “Oh yeah; I'm being his mother, not his partner. 15:00 “I need to be his friend—we're peers, we're equals, we're teammates—and we can work this out together rather than letting it become this great obstacle. Dennis: So for wives—as they look at the subject of being a helper to their husbands—here's the question I would encourage every wife to ask her husband: “Sweetheart, how can I be a better, customized helper to you?” because I really believe, Bob, if we could somehow zoom back and look at an individual marriage through God's eyes—I believe He's made the husband and the wife for one another. He made them with differences—with unique strengths, and abilities, and weaknesses—so they need each other and so they complement each other. I think many couples can live a lifetime and never ever understand how the wife— specifically: “In what areas / how can she be a customized helper for her husband?”— 16:00 —and then take good notes at what he says. Barbara: Well, and that's what I—one of the points that I really am hoping will come across in this book to my daughters—I want them to see the beauty that God has made in marriage—that the way I help my husband is different than the way Mary Ann helps you, Bob— Bob: Yes. Barbara: —different than the way my daughters will help their husbands because my husband needs something different than you would need. That's the wonderful thing about marriage. God gave us very few rules for marriage—He gave us some guidelines to run on / some very specific things in Scripture—but He didn't give us a hundred things to do in marriage. He gave us very few. Within that wonderful definition of marriage that we get out of Scripture, there is endless ability to be creative because we are two unique people. God wants us to design a unique relationship between the two of us. 17:00 Bob: Okay; I've got two questions. The first is: “There are some wives who are hearing this and going, ‘Well shouldn't this thing work both ways? I mean, why am I the helper? Shouldn't he be the helper to me too? Aren't we supposed to help one another?'” You're talking about teammates—so you're the helper, but he's the helper too; right? Barbara: Yes; I think Dennis should answer that, but I think the real bottom line is—is that God has called men to serve. In that serving—of the husband serving the wife—that's how he helps. He's not given the title of helper, but he's given the title of servant-leader. That's how he would help his wife. Dennis: Yes, I think Barbara mentioned the key term there—servant-leader. A husband is given the title, in Ephesians 5, “head,”—he is the authority. The buck does stop with him. He has responsibility to deny himself, to love his wife as Christ loved the church, and to be—as Barbara said—a servant-leader of her and meeting her needs. I don't think a husband—in the sense of what we're talking about a wife being a helper—is to be his wife's helper. 18:00 I think he's to be—the servant, the lover, the leader, the nourisher, the cherisher of her soul, and to look out for her best interest, and her horizons, and maximize her life—but he's got a different assignment— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —with her than she has with him. Bob: Well, in fact, I was meeting with a group of guys recently. We were talking about this designation of servant-leader. We all kind of agreed that maybe it would be better to refer to husbands as shepherd-leaders than servant-leaders because the servant idea can—can almost make it sound like: “As long as your wife's happy, you're doing what you need to do.” That's the trap I fell in, for years—was to think, ‘As long as Mary Ann's happy— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“then I'm—I'm being what God wants me to be.” It's not necessarily her momentary happiness that I should be focused on— Dennis: No, it's not. Bob: —it's the shepherding and leading of her—wisely, gently, carefully, feeding, guiding, caring for her. 19:00 Dennis: —protecting. Bob: That's right. So it was a—it was a helpful metaphor— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —to say: “A man should be a shepherd-leader and a wife should respond and should help in that process.” My other question, though, for you is for the wife who would say: “If I went to my husband and said, ‘How would you like me to be your customized helper?' he would say, ‘Get off my back and leave me alone! Just let me do what I want to do.'” Dennis: But that's not a good answer. Bob: So does she tell him that?! Barbara: Well, I think she frames the question a little differently. I think she says, in a particular situation—like, when Dennis and I were travelling, I could have said to him, “Is there anything I can do to help you so that we can get on our flight on time?” rather than some generic question that he might not be able to put words to. It'd be much better if she said, “How can I help you when we are…” or “…when this situation happens?” or “How can I encourage you when you've had a bad day at work?” If she will be specific, then she might get a more specific answer that would be easier for her to perhaps know what to do with. 20:00 Bob: But if he says, “Just leave me alone,” how does she respond to that? Barbara: I think she needs to say: “What do you mean by leave you alone? What do you want me to back off on?” I think—if she really, genuinely wants to be a better helper—then she needs to ask some follow-up questions / find out: “What does he mean by that?” Bob: Yes. Dennis: I think, over a lifetime together, this is a great question to interact about. In fact, we'd been married for 38 years before the thought ever occurred to me. I was talking to Barbara about her book—just to explore a little bit: “What have we learned in our marriage about how you are a great helper to me?” One of the areas she is—is she's a wise counsellor. Bob: Yes. Dennis: She gives me the perspective that I most count on for my life, from a human perspective. Now, I go to the Bible for my guidance and to guide in prayer; but she's my closest friend—knows me well, looking out for my best interest in multiple ways. 21:00 I go to her for her advice, her counsel, and her perspective. She is a great— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —helper in that area. I think, for a man, if he can just pull back and ask—if you've been married 10 years: “How is your wife a great helper to you? How do you see her having been designed by God to help you?” Another way for Barbara is—and I told her this—she brings great beauty to my life. She's an artist—she likes design / she notices things years before I do. [Laughter] Then she points them out and I enjoy them. Because of her in my life—not only is she beautiful—but she brings beauty to my life and an appreciation for the aesthetics that God has created. Bob: She keeps the sofa looking beautiful, too, by assigning you a place to sit. [Laughter] Barbara: Now Bob, I didn't assign now— Dennis: —in the yard! Barbara: —we agreed! 22:00 Dennis: —in the garage, with the hose! [Laughter] Bob: The thing is—this is a part of the reality of marriage that you guys have, after more than 40 years of being together—you've figured out how to make all of this work. Barbara—now for you to be speaking into the lives of younger women / younger wives—I'm really excited about the book that is now available: Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife by Barbara Rainey. You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com in order to request a copy of the book, or you can call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the title is Letters to My Daughters by Barbara Rainey. Order, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us at 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” By the way, I should have you give the shout-out today to some friends of ours, Keith and Mary Kirkland, celebrating their 15th wedding anniversary today. 23:00 They live in Montgomery, Alabama—listen to WLBF. Mary is a big fan of the resources you've created for homes in the Ever Thine Home collection. They've got the Easter banner, they've got Adorenaments, they've got your “Behold the Lamb” resource—I mean, she's got a bunch of stuff in her home, and they're friends of this ministry. They've helped support the work that FamilyLife Today is doing. If it weren't for friends, like the Kirklands, FamilyLife Today couldn't do all that we do. We're listener-supported, and your donations make this ministry possible. During this month, we are hoping that God would raise up, from among our listeners, 20 new families in every state—who would be brand-new Legacy Partners—monthly donors, supporting the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We'd like to ask you to consider being one of the families in your state helping to keep FamilyLife Today on the air in this community. 24:00 You can become a Legacy Partner by going to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link that says, “DONATE,”—the information's available there—or call 1-800- FL-TODAY and say, “I want to become a Legacy Partner.” We hope to hear from you. We hope you can join us back tomorrow when we're going to talk about what's at the heart of being a godly woman. Priscilla Shirer is going to join us, and we'll talk about a godly woman's priorities tomorrow. Hope you can be here for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Facing the Storms Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 1) Bob: To be the woman and the wife that God created you to be, you have to know how to walk by faith on the good days and on the dark days. Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: Most people who have been through suffering—whether it's shallow, small things or really deep, tragic things—can say, on the other side, “I didn't enjoy it / I didn't like it, but I knew God better as a result.” I've heard so many people say that. I would say it's true about us too. We've learned more about God in the valleys than we have on the high places and hills in the sunshine. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, April 11th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We're going to spend time today exploring how a husband and wife can draw closer together and become one when they're walking in the valley in the path of suffering. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Anybody who has ever been to one of our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways knows that, on Friday night, as we are getting underway, we spend some time talking about the common potholes that derail/destabilize marriage relationships. There are some things that are pretty standard / pretty common that can cause a marriage to wobble at high speeds. Dennis: And we begin the conference with a message that is really about five threats to your oneness—five threats to your marriage / five threats to your marriage going the distance over your lifetime. 2:00 Bob: One of those threats is a failure to anticipate the unexpected trials that come into a marriage. It's not a question of whether unexpected trials will come into a marriage; but “How do you respond when they do?” because all of us are going to hit them; aren't we? Dennis: Well, if you think about it—the vows are built / the traditional vows: “…in sickness and in health / in financial success and in also being poor.” I mean, the basis of what we promise, when we establish the marriage covenant, is that we're going to take the storm head-on. We don't know what it will be; but we're pledging to one another to not quit, but to keep on loving, keep on believing, and make our marriage go the distance. Bob: And we are taking some time this week to talk with your wife Barbara. Welcome back to FamilyLife Today. Barbara: Thank you, Bob. 3:00 Bob: We're going to talk about some of those valleys and dark places that the two of you have walked together in 40-plus years of marriage and how you've not quit in the midst of that. Dennis: And what Barbara has done is—she has taken the past—almost ten—years to complete a book to wives called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife that is designed to be what it is. It's an older woman stepping into the life of a younger woman with sage advice / with seasoned advice—with the advice that comes after four decades of marriage. I love what you've done here because, honestly, there are a good number of books out there about being a wife—and there is a lot of fluff / it's kind of “How to…”—but not really tied into the reality of what women are facing today. The way this book is constructed—you end it with this subject that Bob's talking about here—the subject of suffering. 4:00 I guess I'd have to ask you: “Is that because of what you and I have been through in 40/ almost 44 years of marriage?—because we have been through some dark valleys together. Barbara: Well, that's why it's in there; because it has been an integral part of our marriage relationship. It's in there because I think most brides / most young women get married with some of what I call “fairy tale theology.” They get married thinking that: “Everything is going to be great for us. We're not going to have difficulties. Yes, there will be some uncomfortable moments, but we're not going to really have hard stuff. We're going to be great. We love each other, and everything's going to be great.” For those who are Christians—like you and I were when we got married—we also start our marriages out thinking: “You know, we believe in God. If we do it God's way, it's going to all be good. We're not going to have any hard things.” That was how I started our marriage—thinking: “A plus B equals C. 5:00 “If I obey God and I do these things that are in the Bible, then God, therefore, will give us an easy, nice life.” Bob: So, do you have a new equation now if it's not “A plus B equals C”? What would you say to a young wife, who says, “If it's not that, what is it?” Barbara: There's a lot of algebra! [Laughter] Bob: Some calculus—[Laughter]—a little geometry— Barbara: And I don't know algebra very well; so I can't even give you the formula! [Laughter] Dennis: And we're laughing, but it's the hard stuff of life. This is a broken world. There is a heaven, and it's not here / it's not now. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: God came, in the person of Jesus Christ, to give us an abundant life now and help us face these hardships; but it's like the funeral you and I participated in earlier this year—a dear couple that we love greatly, who buried the body of their 15-year-old son. It's unthinkable— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —the grief of losing a child! 6:00 No couple—standing at the altar, about to say their vows to each other—can even fathom the grief, the loss, the agony, the darkness of the valley. And yet, there are a lot of our listeners—who are in it right now, or who are about to go in it, or who have been in the valley and they've come out the other side—they're nodding their heads. Bob: And one of the things I've heard you say before, Barbara—is knowing that those valleys are ahead—you don't know when they're coming / you don't know where they are—it could be months / it could be years before you head into one—but the time to prepare your marriage and the time to get ready to walk through the valley is not when you find yourself in it—it's while you're still walking in the sunlight. Barbara: Yes. And I think that it also illustrates that the importance of building your marriage today because we don't know how many days we have. Our days are all numbered, but we don't know what the last number is. 7:00 That reminds us that today is the day we need to focus on. Today is the day we need to live—as if it were our last, even though that's hard to do in a practical way—but we need to focus on making our marriage all it can be today. Focus on getting to know Christ today / focus on growing today so that, when those hard times do come—and they will come—because Jesus said, “In this world, you will have trouble,”—period / done—“…you will have trouble.” We don't like that / I never liked that verse—I always kind of wondered why it was even in there. It is because He's telling us the truth that we will have trouble and we will have difficulty. So the best way to prepare is to live each day on purpose and to live each day with focus and intentionality in your relationship. Dennis: You don't prepare for the storm in the middle of the storm. 8:00 I will never forget a Green Beret, who came up to me at one of our Weekend to Remember marriage getaways, way back when we started FamilyLife years and years ago. He came up and said, “Dennis, as a Green Beret, we practice what to do in a crisis over, and over, and over again in training so that, when we were in the crisis, it was second nature / we knew what to do.” I think what people need to look at is—to look at the Bible as the training manual. We need to know how to live now in light of eternity. As a married couple, you have to know how to live together. We've been through some hard things in our family / some difficult challenges. It's true, Bob, husbands and wives do not suffer the same / they do not process grief in the same way. We're different, as male and female. I'm so glad that Barbara has this chapter in her book to coach women to know how to view suffering / how to view the valley in their marriage and not lose heart / not lose hope—but to not give up. 9:00 Bob: Sometimes in a marriage, Barbara, we are plunged into a deep valley, where it's the kind of darkness we've talked about here—burying a child or—I know, for you and Dennis—the loss of a grandchild, years ago, was one of those deep valleys. For a lot of wives, the valley is not as deep; but it's kind of a shallow, prolonged valley. You wouldn't necessarily even call it suffering, but it's just a general discontentedness about life and where you are. It drags on you every day. If a wife is in that moment, where she's saying, “This is not what I— Barbara: —“signed up for”? Bob: “Just not what I thought life was going to be.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: “It's not what I thought marriage was going to be. I thought having kids would be more fun than this.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: What does she do in that moment? Barbara: Well, first of all, I want to say that that is suffering. It's just a different kind of suffering because I think that is a common experience for many, many women. 10:00 I think a lot of us go through seasons of life, whether it's because of hormones or it's because of the season that our kids are in. I remember a season like that for me, in the late teen years, before we became empty nesters. I remember being so exhausted every single day. I think there's a cumulative effect that a lot of mothers feel—it just kind of builds—so that by the time you're in your 40s or pushing 50, there's this general fatigue with life. I think that is a kind of suffering because we do live in a broken world. That is a difficult thing to deal with because it affects everything about you—it affects your marriage, your kids that are still at home, your perception of yourself, your perception of life, your enjoyment of life. So I think that those really can be called kinds of suffering. 11:00 So the answer is--and I don't want this to sound like a pat answer because there isn't a pat answer—but I think the bottom line is: “Continuing to believe God that He is in control and that this too shall pass.” It's pulling back and looking at the big picture. I describe this as watercolor painting in my book because one of the things about creating a painting is—you come up with an initial sketch, and you've got to decide where the horizon line is, and what's going to be your focal point. Often, when you're doing a painting of any kind—and even a sculpture, although I don't do that, but I think the same principle is true with any kind of art—you have to pull back. One of the things that's important about doing a painting is—you walk six feet away and look at it / or maybe even farther—and you see the whole more clearly when you're away from it. The same is true in our lives—we need to pull back / remind ourselves of the big picture: 12:00 “God is in control. He still loves me. He's working good in my life, even though I don't see it or feel it and I don't know what the outcome is going to be. I can trust Him.” I think the message is, “Don't quit when it gets hard.” Our temptation is to want to run away when things get hard or when things get difficult—to escape from the pressure, escape from the pain, escape from whatever it is that you're feeling as a result of the suffering. But God is saying: “No. Stay there. I'm with you. I won't abandon you. I'm going to use this for good.” Dennis: And back to the motif or the illustration of watercolors. Bob, I've watched Barbara create paintings; and it's fascinating how she shows off light. You would think that would be pretty simple; but to a non-artistic person like me, it's fascinating how you use dark colors to show off the light. 13:00 What Barbara's actually talking about here is—I think that God allows the darkness—God allows the valleys / He allows the disappointments and the unmet expectations—those things to come into our lives to create some contrast that will call us to trust Him. Because, frankly, if everything went our own way,— Barbara: —we wouldn't need Him or we wouldn't trust Him. Dennis: —we wouldn't need God. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: And we could live our whole lives just being “happy.” Well, you know what? That isn't going to happen! Barbara: Right. Dennis: You're not going to be able to live “a happy life.” Bob: But I do think there are a lot of wives who—when they are not happy / they're in a prolonged season, where, “I just haven't felt happy for a while,”—they start to look around and go: “Okay, how come I'm not feeling happy? Who's the cause of this!?” [Laughter] Guess—who is the closest person there to take the blame for: “I'm not happy! It's got to be something he's doing! If he was doing his job, I'd be happy!”? 14:00 Do you think that's right? Barbara: Do I think it is right that she's thinking that? Bob: Yes. Barbara: Well, no! It's not right that she's thinking that. [Laughter] Bob: Is it accurate that she might be thinking that? Barbara: Oh, I think it's common. Bob: Yes! But it's not right. Barbara: But it's not right; yes. [Laughter] I mean, it's very easy to blame somebody else. That's one of the hard things about marriage—is that it's so easy for both of us—husband or wife—to blame the person who's right there because they're handy, and it's really easy to find fault and say, “Well, if you only…, my life would be so much better.” But that's not really what the reason is. The real reason is that God—because He's our Father, and He's a loving, kind, gracious Father / is so patient—and He's saying to us: “You need this right now. This will be for your good right now. I know you don't like it / I know it doesn't feel good, but I've got purposes and I've got plans for you. You will be glad in the end.” 15:00 Most people who have been through suffering—whether it's shallow, small things or really deep, tragic things—can say, on the other side: “I didn't enjoy it / I didn't like it, but I knew God better / I came to know Him better as a result. I wouldn't trade that for anything.” I've heard so many people say that, and I would say it's true about us too. We've learned more about God in the valleys than we have on the high places and hills in the sunshine. Dennis: I just want to read a couple of passages, just based upon all Barbara is talking about here. If you're going through a hard time, I'd like to recommend the best-seller—the Bible—and the Book of 1 Peter, which was written to a group of people, who had been scattered and who were followers of Christ. They were called the diaspora—they were scattered saints, having to represent Christ in cultures that punished them for it. Barbara: Well, they weren't just scattered—because we tend to think of scattered as they are just living in different places—but they lost homes / possessions. 16:00 I mean, they had really experienced some difficult traumas that we face today when houses burn down or we go bankrupt and we lose everything. That puts a little more context in what these people were living in. Bob: They were refugees—not just scattered—but refugees. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: So I just want to read what God wanted to say to some folks who were going through some hard times. Just listen to how God coaches and gently nudges people who are in the valley—1 Peter, Chapter 3, verse 13: “Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.” 17:00 But listen to this conclusion to this passage: “For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.” So you hear the Scripture calling us to have the right perspective of our valley. Don't just look at it from a human perspective. Wherever you are, maybe pull out this book and read 1 Peter, Chapter 3. Then, across the page, go look at Chapter 4, verse 12 and listen to what Peter says here: “Beloved, don't be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.” 18:00 I've got to stop there because I think we, as human beings, are really odd. We think, when we get married, there's never going to be a valley. It's in the fine print of the marriage covenant—you're going to go through testing / through trials. But listen to this—verse 13 of Chapter 4: “But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when His glory is revealed.” The Bible so calls us away from our temporary thinking / from how I'm feeling right now. It's calling you, not to live by feelings, but it's calling you to faith: “Are you going to believe that that's true?” As a couple, will you allow the things that are coming at you to bind your hearts to His—first of all to God's—but then, secondly, to one another and to not give up?—and as Barbara said, “…not quit and not toss the towel in.” We're talking to people, right now, who have secretly—or maybe verbally—threatened divorce to their spouse. 19:00 I mean, it is commonplace in our culture. But this is the biblical way to look at suffering, and the biblical way to run the race all the way to the finish line. Bob: Well, what I've heard both of you saying throughout this is—first of all: “Trials are coming; so be ready, and the way you get ready is by learning how to trust God in the sunshine so that, when you're in the valley, you've already learned what walking by faith looks like. You don't wait to get to the valley to learn.” Dennis: You don't wait ‘til the storm comes and it starts raining to go up on top of the roof to— Bob: —to fix the leak. Dennis: —to fix the leak. Bob: And then, the second thing is: “When you're in the valley and the circumstances are pressing, you have to pull back—step away from the painting, get the bigger picture, and counsel your own soul with what you know is true in the sunshine. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “Preach it to yourself in the shadow. That's how Jesus walks through that with you.” 20:00 So a wife who finds herself in a season of suffering—whether it's the mild malaise we talked about earlier, where it's just discouragement, or whether it's a significant period of suffering—she has to counsel her own soul and remind herself of what's true and hang onto that. Barbara: And she needs to realize that God wants to use the hard times for the good of her marriage. It's not just for her good or her husband's good, or for the betterment of some circumstance, but God really wants to use these difficulties to help them, as a couple / a husband and a wife, grow closer together. We suffer differently / we handle things differently, but that's part of what God wants to do to help us become more one—is for me to share what I'm feeling when we're suffering, and for me to listen to Dennis share what he's feeling or, when he doesn't share what he's feeling, to trust that God is at work in his soul. 21:00 As we go through that experience together, it bonds us together more than on days when we're not struggling. Dennis: What I'd have to say to that is—I wish, at this point, I could reach through the radio—whether it's a phone, or a computer, or your car, or in your shop / wherever you're listening—and just put an arm around you and say, “Oh, we have such a shallow view of love!” Barbara: Yes. Dennis: We think love is like the movies depict it—a couple walking off in the sunset, arm in arm, with the soft breeze, and the music swelling, and people applauding. The reality is—a lot of love is learned in the valley, where two people aren't feeling the same thing / where two people aren't finding a lot of romance because there's no room in the valley, sometimes, for romance. It's where two people learn how to really love because they meet the God of love in the valley, and they begin to understand He loves them— 22:00 —that's what they're supposed to reflect to one another. Bob: I think there are a lot of wives who are really going to be helped as they get a chance to read your reflections on how God uses suffering in a marriage relationship and in a family—how God has used it in your life as you've gone through seasons of suffering. You write about this in your new book, Letters to My Daughters. Barbara: Yes. Bob: We are making that book available this month to listeners who can support the ministry of FamilyLife with a donation of any amount. We are a listener-supported ministry. We depend on your donations to be able to continue the work of FamilyLife Today. If you can help with a donation this month, we'd like to send you a copy of Barbara's brand-new book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can make a donation online if you'd like. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. 23:00 Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Let me just say, “Thanks,” in advance for your support of this ministry. We hope you enjoy Barbara's new book, Letters to My Daughters. We want to say, “Congratulations!” today to our friends, Wayne and Carrie Owen. They live in Sacramento, California. I lived in Sacramento for a while. In fact, I worked at the radio station where they listen to FamilyLife Today—at KFIA. The Owens have been married 29 years today—“Congratulations!” to them. If you have an anniversary coming up later this year, we'd like to help you celebrate. We will send you some text messages or emails just prior to your anniversary—just some little prompts for you to begin to get ready to celebrate your special day. We just need to know what your special day. So call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY and let us know your anniversary date. 24:00 Or you can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and leave us your anniversary date and let us know whether you'd like those messages sent to you by email or by text message. Now, tomorrow, we want to spend time talking about how fear can affect a family. We especially want to look at blended or stepfamilies. We're going to hear from Ron Deal tomorrow with thoughts on the subject of fear. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch—special help today from Mark Ramey. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Praising the Positive Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 2) Bob: Barbara Rainey has some advice for wives. She says, when you're husband messes up—and, by the way, he will—when it happens, how you respond may determine whether he learns anything from his mistake or not. Barbara: If you rail on him, and if you criticize him, and you tell him how stupid it was that he made that decision, he may not learn the lesson that God wanted for him; and he may have to repeat it again. The best thing that a wife can do is trust God, even when it's hard, and ask God to use it for good in their life and that God would use it to grow him in that area where he just blew it royally. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, April 28th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. The words you say have profound power in your marriage relationship. We'll examine that subject with Barbara Rainey today. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Have you ever stopped to just ponder who you would be: (A) if you had been single all your life or (B) if you'd married somebody other than Barbara? Dennis: Yes; I guess I have because I tried to marry a young lady from SMU before Barbara and I started dating. Bob: You proposed? Dennis: She didn't want to marry me. No, no. It wasn't at that point. Bob: It was clear enough that you didn't— Dennis: But there was a DTR—a “define the relationship.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: How she defined it and how I defined it—[Laughter]—“Thumbs down, baby!” Bob: Okay. Dennis: “Thumbs down!! You're out of here!” [Laughter] 2:00 It was good because—it was okay because I wasn't in search of a myth. I wanted a real relationship with a real person. Back to the previous part of the question, though, Bob: “Have I ever thought about who I would be if I hadn't married Barbara and was single?” I have. I don't visit that picture very often because that's a horror film. [Laughter] Bob: Pretty ugly; huh? [Laughter] Dennis: She's laughing really hard because she knows what happened behind the curtain. [Laughter] Bob: Are you saying, “Amen,” to that? Is that what— Barbara: No, I just think that's funny that he said it would be a horror film because I don't think it would be that bad. Dennis: Well, I don't know what you would compare marriage to—that teaches you how to love, that instructs you in how to sacrifice for another person, to care for, to cherish, to nourish, and to call you away from yourself and force— 3:00 —I mean, if you're going to do marriage God's way, it is the greatest discipleship tool that has ever been created in the history of the universe. It demands that both a husband and a wife pick up their cross, follow Christ, deny themselves, and ask God, “Okay, God, what do You want me to do in this set of circumstances?” Bob: And that's true. It works both ways—for husbands and wives—but our focus this week is on the responsibility a wife has—the privilege she has / the assignment she has—from God to be the helper that He's created her to be. Barbara, we're talking about some of the themes that are found in your book, Letters to My Daughters, which is just out. We're getting a lot of great feedback from women who have gotten copies of this book and started reading it. Some women recoil at the idea that they're called to be helpers—it sounds demeaning to them. Your book affirms that it's a noble thing that God is calling wives to. 4:00 Barbara: It is a very noble assignment that God has given us. It's equally noble, I think, to the calling that God has put on a man's life too. What makes it even better is that, together, marriage is a high and holy calling—it says that in Scripture. It also says that it's a mystery. I think that's the part that we wish God hadn't said about it because it would be nice if it was a little bit more black and white / more obvious. But God says it is a mystery. God is an artist / God is an author—God didn't make robots. So figuring this out—this uniqueness / this relationship that Dennis and I have that's unlike anybody else's relationship on the planet—just as your marriage with Mary Ann is unlike anybody else's on the planet—the ingenuity of God to create these little duos all over the planet that represent Him / that are a picture of Christ and the Church—all of that mystery is profound and baffling. 5:00 We wish sometimes that marriage was a whole lot easier, but it illustrates that marriage is a very high and noble calling. We think it is drudgery / we think it's dispensable—and it's not. Dennis: Yes. In the book that Barbara has written, called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife, you quote Mike Mason. Speaking of mysteries, he wrote a book called The Mystery of Marriage. This comes from that book—he says this: “Love convinces a couple that they are the greatest romance that has ever been, that no two people have ever loved as they do, and that they will sacrifice absolutely anything in order to be together.” Then I love the conclusion to the statement. It says, “Then marriage asks them to prove it.” Well, that's what's at stake. You've got this noble relationship that wasn't created by man—it was created by Almighty God. 6:00 His image is stamped all over a marriage that seeks to follow His blueprints for what He wants us to do. He's trying to teach us how to love—how to love sacrificially / how to give up our lives on behalf of another. You're never going to be able to do it if you try to have it your way. Bob: I would love for you to expand on something that I just had to stop and ponder for a second. You said what a wife believes about her husband is the starting place for everything she says or doesn't say about her husband. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And what you believe about Dennis is the starting place for everything you say or don't say about him. Barbara: Correct. Bob: Unpack that for me. Barbara: Well, let me explain something about photography that I think will help answer your question for you. Anybody, who has ever used a 35mm camera that has a lens that you turn so you can focus, understands the principle that the person who is holding the camera chooses what's going to be in that image. 7:00 You can choose a broad panorama and you can get as much in that frame as you can get, or you may choose to tighten that zoom lens and focus on somebody's eyes only. You've got great choice, as the photographer, in what you're going to get in that lens of the camera. And the same is true in marriage. I have complete control over what people know about my husband. If I'm talking about Dennis and I talk about his faults, or I talk about how crummy it is that he just doesn't ever do this and I think it's terrible that he doesn't ever do that, anybody who hears that description that I just made of him will think of him that way. When they think of him, they're going to remember that. But, on the other hand, if I choose to leave that out of the description, and instead, I choose to describe him for my friends, or my small group, or wherever I am talking about him, and I say: “You know, one of the things that I appreciate about Dennis is that he really makes our family a priority. 8:00 “Yes, he travels. Yes; sometimes he has to say late and work / sometimes he is gone on the weekends, but I know that his heart is to make our family a priority.” That's focusing the lens of my camera on what is good and what is right about my husband. If he knows that I'm saying that about him, he's going to want to live up to that expectation. Bob: So some wives will hear you say that and say: “You want me to airbrush my husband. You want me to just brush away and pretend like all those flaws that are there just don't exist and just pretend like he's better than he is.” Barbara: Okay. And I would say to her: “How does God see you? Is God pointing out to you the hundreds of things that you do wrong every day? Um, I don't think so. He's very gentle and very gracious, and He shows us one thing at a time that we do wrong.” 9:00 I just think: “Okay, you want to call it airbrushing? Alright, I'll take that—it may be airbrushing—but I would rather focus on what he does right than what he does wrong because—when I focus on what he does wrong, and I have done that—all I can see are the things he does wrong. They grow and they just become these huge things. I become obsessed with everything that's wrong and everything he's not doing that's right. And that's not fun! I don't like that about me! “I don't want him to be focusing on all my weaknesses and all my flaws. I don't want him talking about my weaknesses and flaws to other people because I don't like them / I don't want to be known for what is wrong with me. I want to be known for what I do well and what I do right. So the same is true for him. So, yes, I airbrush it—I don't talk about the things that he does wrong, or his weaknesses, or his flaws. That's for him to deal with before the Lord. That's not my business—that's his business.” Bob: You're not living in denial about those things? Barbara: No; no. 10:00 Dennis: That doesn't mean that the airbrush doesn't get turned off at a point. Bob: And the flaws are exposed? [Laughter] Barbara: Well, or that I talk about them with him from time to time. Dennis: Yes. Bob: And you're not being unrealistic about the nature of your relationship. Barbara: No. Bob: But I think what I hear you saying—and this goes back to where we started—what a wife says about her husband is going to begin with what she's thinking about her husband. Barbara: Correct. Bob: And she can choose— Barbara: Correct. Bob: —whether to dwell on all of his flaws or whether to set her mind on those things that are his virtues. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And every husband's got at least a couple of them; right? Barbara: Well, if he doesn't, why did you marry him? I mean, all of us got married because we admired something about this man that we fell in love with. So focus on those things. I remember, years and years ago, when we were in a new church that we were a part of—it was a fairly small church—and we had this community group of other couples that we met together every couple of weeks. 11:00 I remember standing in a small group of maybe three or four of us. This wife started talking about her husband—she was talking negatively about her husband. I'll never forget that uncomfortable feeling that all of us in that little, tiny circle felt. We just felt kind of: “Ouch! Oooh! That hurts! I don't know that I want to hear that about your husband.” And then, out of the corner of my eye, I saw him, standing not that far away. I think he had heard what she said. I have just never forgotten that picture, even though it was probably 30 years ago / maybe 20 years ago—but it was a long time ago—because I saw what the power of her words did. I saw what it did to me—it made me, as a listener, uncomfortable. It made me wonder about him, as a man. And then, when I saw that he heard, it was like an ice pick to his heart. I realized how powerful our words are as wives. 12:00 So my whole intention in what I share in this chapter about this is to help women understand that your words are very, very significant. Those who hear them are going to be influenced by what we say. Dennis: There's a proverb that is so applicable here—Proverbs 18:21: “Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.” Barbara: Yes. Dennis: So you literally have the opportunity to use your tongue like a paint brush to paint a positive picture, or like an ice pick to tear another person down. To the woman, who is listening to us—or for that matter, a man, who may be listening in right now—if you're a critical person / if you're negative, you need to ask God to do a work in your soul. 13:00 You know, no one wants to be in the corner of an attic with a cranky woman or a cranky man, who is bitter, and negative, and all they can do is find fault. That's not who you want to grow old with. What you need to ask—you need to ask God to do a work in your soul and to help release you from being critical of your husband or your wife and find a way to begin to focus on—as Barbara is calling women to do here—to focus on that which is positive in their spouse / why you married them in the first place and what you like about them. Brag on your wife / brag on your husband in front of the kids. Bob: One of the things Dennis has shared over the years—you've heard him say it—your belief in him has been massive in terms of his confidence in doing what God's called him to do. I'm just wondering: “Was that just natural to express belief in him? Was that just something that came instinctively to you; or were you conscious and deliberate about saying: ‘I need to verbalize to him. I need to express confidence in him'?” 14:00 Barbara: The answer is, “Yes,” to both because I think most of us women, when we first get married, we marry this guy because we believe in him—we think he's the greatest. Most women marry with those thoughts, those feelings, and those emotions. I think that what happens is—when we do get disillusioned, and we do find discouragements, and we butt heads because we're different—that belief can come down with it. Then, that's when it becomes a choice. In the beginning, it was really easy for me to believe in him because I just did believe in him—that's why I married him. But then there come those times, farther into the relationship, when belief becomes a choice. So rather than expressing—and it's not that I don't express fear / it's not that I don't express anxiety because I express plenty of that—but the bottom line is: “In the end, no matter what, I believe in you. I believe that God is at work in your life and in our marriage. I believe that God is going to see us through this, and I'm going to be with you there to the bitter end.” 15:00 Dennis: And what I'd want a woman to know is—that no matter how competent and confident a man looks, whether he's young or whether he's older / it does not matter—there isn't a man, within the reach of my voice right now over the radio across the country, who doesn't need his wife's steady and certain words of affirmation and belief. He needs it. I don't care if he says nothing to you when you say it. The words are sinking and soaking into his soul because there are not that many people in a lifetime—in fact, I'd ask the question, “Is there anyone who goes a lifetime with you and who believes in you all the way to the end?” The answer is, “Who would it be?” Bob: Yes. Dennis: “Who's going to do that?” That's the nature of marriage! 16:00 When you say, “I take you ‘til death do us part, for better or for worse, in riches and in being poor,”—wow! It's the pay-off! Barbara: Yes. Dennis: It's not always easy. We're not trying to paint some kind of rosy picture here, but it is a necessity. Bob: There has to have been a time—and I don't know if it will come to mind immediately for you or not—but a time when you were facing a decision and you were thinking, “I think we should do this.” And Dennis was thinking, “No, I think we should do this.” And you said: “Okay, I'm going to trust you. I'm going to follow you”; and it turned out that it would have been better off if you'd have done it your way. I'm just wondering—for a wife in that situation, where she says, “I think this is the right thing to do,” and the husband says, “We're going this way,” and they go down a dead-end and the wife finds herself, in that moment, thinking, “If he'd have just listened to me, we'd be in a lot better shape right now than we are!”— 17:00 —what does she do in that moment? Barbara: Well, I can't think of a specific time; but there have been times like, for instance, driving in the car, when he would choose to go one way and I was thinking, “I don't think that's the right way!” And, sure enough, it wasn't. That hasn't happened very often, but it has happened. I remember one time, early in our marriage, when we were discussing a financial decision. I don't remember thinking it was a bad decision at the time; but it was a bad decision, and it cost us financially. Regardless, it doesn't really matter—if it's a big thing or a small thing—because the choice is still the same in the end for a wife; that is: “Even when he makes bad decisions—and he will / when he decides to do things that will cost you—and he will—will you still believe in him? Will you still trust God? Will you put your faith in God's sovereignty that God can turn this into good in his life?” 18:00 Maybe that's exactly what he needed to experience to grow in the way God wanted him to grow. If you rail on him, and if you criticize him, and you tell him how stupid it was that he made that decision, he may not learn the lesson that God wanted for him; and he may have to repeat it again. The best thing that a wife can do is trust God, even when it's hard, and ask God to use it for good in their life and that God would use it to grow him in that area, where he just blew it royally, because men are going to make big mistakes. It's how we respond to that mistake that will make the difference in whether he benefits from it or he can't benefit from it because he's been beat up by his wife. Dennis: This is not an easy message for a lot of listeners to hear, but I just want you to comment on why you decided to write a book that is called Letters to My Daughters to call them to the art / the biblical art of being a wife because you're calling them to a high standard. 19:00 Barbara: Yes. Dennis: These are our daughters and our daughters-in-law. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Why did you want to do that? Barbara: Well, I think our culture has lost the vision for what marriage can be—what it was intended to be. Yes, we have all seen countless examples of marriage done the wrong way, but that doesn't mean marriage is broken. It means the people are broken who are in it. I want the next generation to understand that marriage is really worth working on—it is transformative, it is redemptive, it is holy. There are so many good things about marriage; but we don't see those good things, commonly, in our culture—we see all the negatives. I tell the story of: “What would it be like if you went to the Louvre Museum in Paris, with all these magnificent art works? And what if, while you were standing in line to get your ticket, there was an earthquake? 20:00 “And after you got your ticket, you walked in and half of these masterpieces were lying on the floor. There were still half of them on the wall / there were still statues and all of these magnificent things around—what would your eyes be drawn to? Your eyes would be drawn to the tragedy, to the loss, to the broken pieces lying all over the floor.” I think that's a picture of our culture. We see all of these wrecked marriages—we see these abused women, we see these lost men, we see the damaged children—and we just think: “Marriage is hopeless. Why should I even try?” What I want to do in this book is say: “Look at what's on the wall! Look at what God has said. Look at what God has designed. That is our goal. Don't get distracted by the broken pieces. It's tragic, it's wrong, it's sad; but the institution of marriage is still worthy. It's still worth striving for. 21:00 God didn't make a mistake when He made marriage. We're the ones who are messing it up. Dennis: And Bob, I think about what FamilyLife is talking about all this year in our 40th anniversary of doing ministry—calling people back to their anniversary and back to their commitment—around the whole concept of the Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries™. What Barbara is challenging people with is—just because people have failed, don't give up on what the Bible—the transcendent beauty and model of the Scriptures and what it's calling us to be, as human beings—to call us away from our selfishness, to call us to the biblical model of following Jesus Christ, and training our kids to do the same. I'm going to tell you something—there's a lot on the line in every marriage that is listening to us right now. Generations are on the line— 22:00 —your children! The best picture that they'll ever see, apart from the Scriptures, of what a real marriage ought to be is your marriage. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Even in its imperfections, it can display what Barbara is talking about—the nobility / the grandeur. Your kids will see something—that they are going to say: “You know what? Mom and Dad could have ended it, but they didn't! They experienced the redemption of Jesus Christ. I want what they've got! When I get married, I want one of those! And I'm not going to settle for anything less.” The way they get it is by absorbing your teaching about Jesus Christ, following Him, and deciding to make their parents' faith their own. But that means the parents need to have it first. Bob: Well, and I would say that part of the way they get it, too, is by aligning themselves with God's design for us—as men and women / as husbands and wives—the unique assignment God has for us. 23:00 It's one of the issues you're addressing, Barbara, as you talk to young wives about what it means for them to be godly wives. I'd just encourage our listeners—get a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. This is a book that we're making available this month to folks who make a donation to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com—make an online donation. You can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—make a donation over the phone; or you can mail a donation to us and request a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters. We're happy to send it out to you as a “Thank you,” for your support of the ministry of FamilyLife. We couldn't do what we do if it weren't for folks, like you, helping to support this ministry. So “Thanks,” in advance, for whatever gift you're able to help with. We're happy to send you Barbara's new book, Letters to My Daughters, when you get in touch with us—again, online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 24:00 Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear Barbara and a number of other women interacting in a panel conversation that took place a few years ago with a large crowd of women. You were talking about God's design for you, as a woman, as a wife, and as a mom. We'll hear that dialogue tomorrow. I hope our listeners can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Surviving the Seasons of Intimacy Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 2) Bob: Why does it seem like moms are often not that interested in marital intimacy? Barbara Rainey understands. Barbara: It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else; and, yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority because, if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, February 7th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Barbara Rainey joins us today to talk about how she worked to make intimacy a priority in her marriage when there were six kids still living at home. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. With the season of romance and love in the air—and let me just remind some of the husbands who are listening—Valentine's Day is coming up. You may want to put that on your calendar or on your reminder list so that you don't arrive at that day and find yourself empty-handed. I've had that experience—it's not a fun experience when that happens. [Laughter] Do you know what I'm talking about? Dennis: No. [Laughter] Bob: Yes; you do! Dennis: Forty-four years; and I'm batting a thousand, Bob! [Laughter] Bob: Are you? Dennis: Ask her! She's here with us! Bob: We have an eye witness here. Barbara Rainey is joining us. Is that true? Has he never missed a Valentine's Day? Has he always had a card, or a gift, or something? Dennis: I've always shown up! Bob: Showing up is something else! [Laughter] Barbara: You have been present. 2:00 Although, I don't know that you've always been present on Valentine's because of travel. Dennis: Oh, yes! That's probably true. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Well, we thought it would be helpful today to discuss the area of sex, and intimacy, and romance, especially since this is something, Barbara—that you wrote about in your book that is now almost a year old—it's called Letters to My Daughters. Chapter 6 was all about helping your daughters and other young wives understand what's going on with this aspect of a marriage relationship. Dennis: And, at this point, I want to read a P.S. that Barbara puts at the end of one of these letters. Now, the book has nine chapters. There's only one chapter on sex, but it's a long chapter; and there are like half a dozen letters that pose a question to Barbara that she answers in the book. I just want to read this: P.S. There are additional unseen benefits to regular sexual relations in marriage. 3:00 Three little facts I learned from one of our FamilyLife Today radio guests: Number one: The chemicals oxytocin and dopamine, when released in the brain, increase bonding; the reexpression of love and commitment strengthens mutual affection; and there is a sense of satisfaction in keeping intimacy alive, even if the actual experience isn't a great one. The last is my favorite, because in our marriage… Now, this is really interesting for me to read on air; because, Bob, you know, we have people come up to us and they say: “You guys! All you do is present a perfect picture of marriage!” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Well, I'm about to dispel that [Laughter] in what I'm about to read that my wife wrote in this book! The last one is my favorite, because in our marriage, sex hasn't always been accompanied by fireworks! Among a lot of good-to-great experiences, we've also had some pretty lousy encounters… 4:00 Did you really write that in this book?! Barbara: I did. [Laughter] And I can tell you still don't like it very much. Dennis: I don't; I don't. [Laughter] I complained about this when I edited it, but you didn't take it out. …some pretty lousy encounters…some that left us both either disappointed or hurt. That makes the chemical facts all the more important, because even not-great sex still bonds us together. Nice to know, huh? [Laughter] Dennis: Honestly, I really appreciate Barbara's honesty about our marriage, because I think a lot of people out there are hurting. They think they're the only ones that ever had a lousy encounter around the sexual relationship. Bob: When you and Dennis, together, wrote the book, Rekindling the Romance, you talked about seasons of a marriage. Barbara: Yes. Bob: You talked about early love, and then you talked about, kind of, this middle season— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —where it just can kind of get routine. 5:00 A lot of husbands and wives, in the middle of raising kids and going through things—they hit that season and they think to one another, “This is it?” They're frustrated and they're disappointed. They wonder, if they switch partners, if things would get better for them. Dennis: Or, let me tell you this—Barbara spoke to one group of women who talked about a no-sex marriage, where people just give up / toss in the towel and say, “We're done.” Bob: And we've talked to couples, who have said, “It's been two years” / “…three years since we've been intimate with one another. We're committed, and we still love each other; but we've just kind of given up on that area of our marriage.” You would say to a wife, who says, “We've given up and we're content, and it's working out for us,”—what would you say? Barbara: I would say that's a dangerous assumption. I think that it's a very real possibility in a lot of marriages, because— 6:00 —you're right—there is a middle ground in marriage, where it's just hard work; because you have so many demands on both of your lives. There's not much energy left over; there's not much enthusiasm; there's not much rest. It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else. Yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority; because if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else, which is why there are so many affairs. There are so many couples, who are splitting up and finding new partners, because it is exciting. They're finding that excitement that they once had in the early days of their marriage. 7:00 But it's not going to satisfy; it's not going to replace; it's not going to be better. It's actually going to be more complicated. I really believe, and I've repeated it multiple times in my book, that God is big enough to change any marriage. I strongly believe that His Word is true when He said, “Nothing is too hard for Me.” You may look at your marriage, and you may go: “This is impossible! This is just too hard! I don't think there's any way out.” I want you to know—I've felt that way. I remember feeling that way at different times in those middle years of marriage, when we were swamped with kids and life. It felt too hard; but I knew that God meant what He said when He said, “Nothing is impossible for Me.” So, therefore, if I believe in God—and I do—then I have to take Him at His Word. I have to go to Him and say: “This feels impossible. This feels too difficult, but I know that You can bring life back to our marriage.” 8:00 If you don't quit, then there's always the hope of the redemption—there's the hope of God bringing new life back into your marriage. But when you quit, you've basically slammed the door on the possibility of God working a miracle. I think that's a tragedy. Dennis: And there's a biblical admonition that Paul gives us from 1 Corinthians, Chapter 7. He said, “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise, the wife to her husband.” It goes on to talk about the wife doesn't have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and the husband doesn't have authority over his body, but the wife does. What I think Paul is exhorting us to here is that you've got to pay attention to one of the strongest drives in humanity. I got to thinking about this, and there are really only a couple of drives, I think, such as the need for oxygen and the need for water and food that would supplant sexuality. 9:00 Bob: You think survival might be a little ahead? Dennis: Well, those are both survival categories; but the point is—the urge for two people to merge was put there by God. I've thought about this many times. It's a good thing, in most marriages, that one of the two of you has a stronger desire to be with the other in the area of sexuality. Why? Because if one of you didn't have a pursuit, what might happen? You'd just have two people, spinning plates, off doing their own thing, and occasionally coming back, like roommates at a house to be able to maybe touch each other with eyesight, but never emotionally—never in depth, with a true, real relationship—the way God designed it in marriage. I think God, in His ingenuity, has made something powerful here that too often has been called “dirty.” 10:00 It really is a healthy desire for two people to become one. Bob: So this brings up the issue, then, Barbara: “How would you coach a wife? Is it ever appropriate for her to say, ‘No, not now / not tonight—I'm not interested right now.' How should she say that? And what are the legitimate reasons for her to say, ‘I can't be with you'? Is it because, ‘I'm too tired,' or because, ‘You hurt me the other day'? What works here?” Barbara: Well, first of all, I think she does have a responsibility to be honest with her husband. I think that faking it—faking being together sexually—is not going to accomplish anything. If there is emotional distance between you—and you're feeling hurt because of something he said or if you really are so exhausted that you just can't function anymore that day—those are real life issues that we all deal with and we all feel. 11:00 The purpose of sex and of coming together is for intimacy—it's for transparency / it's for sharing our lives together. I don't think there's anything wrong with delaying it—I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman expressing how she feels or what her needs are—because to not do that is being disingenuous / that's not transparency. If the goal is transparency / the goal is intimacy and oneness, you have to be real / you have to be honest. Now, the way you do that, I think, is what's most important. That is, you can say, “I just can't tonight,” or “I feel like we've got to finish talking about this argument that we had two days ago,” or whatever it might be. It's the way in which you communicate that that matters to your husband. It must be done with respect; it must be done with commitment; it must be done with love. You say something like: “I need you to know what I'm feeling. Can we talk about this now, or should we talk about it later?” 12:00 “I need some resolution in this area of our relationship.” If you communicate that you're committed to him and you say: “I'm committed to you, and I'm going to work this out. I want to be with you, just not tonight,” or “…just not right now.” I think that's perfectly acceptable as long as “not right now” doesn't turn into two years. I think it needs to be an agreement between a husband and a wife—they talk about it, and they find a solution together that works for both of them. It has to be mutual. Bob: That's 1 Corinthians 7 again; isn't it? Dennis: It is. Paul goes on to say: “Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement, for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer. But then, come back together again so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” I mean, we live in a highly-sexualized culture. 13:00 We've got to understand one another. Here's where Barbara's book does an outstanding job of helping young wives, and for that matter, older wives understand their husbands in this area—and how they are made by God—and that it's good—it's not bad / it's not evil.. They should bless their husband and not ignore him. If you need to say, “Not tonight, Sweetheart,” don't ignore it tomorrow night, and the next night, and the next night, and the next night. Bob: So the wife who is feeling, tonight: “I think he might be interested. I just—maybe if I just go to bed early—I don't say anything / I just fall— you know, he comes in and finds me asleep. Then, he'll leave me alone.” She gets a little passive-aggressive with how she handles this. She finds ways to dodge or avoid. Dennis: Do you think a guy doesn't know this? Barbara: Yes! He does. Dennis: Yes; he does! Bob: So, to that wife—you'd say: “It's time to get this out in the open and have the conversation”? 14:00 Barbara: Yes; I do. I think it's much better to talk about it. I mean, I think it's a temptation for all of us women to want to kind of just avoid it and hope it will go away when we're too tired, or overwhelmed, or whatever. But making it go away isn't the solution. It's not the solution to any kind of a disagreement, or an impasse, or something that's between you, as husband and wife. It's like the part that Dennis read earlier from my book—even not-so-great sex is bonding. It's remembering what's true / it's remembering the value that God places on your marriage and on the sexual part of your marriage relationship. It's going to him and saying: “I am really exhausted, but I sense that you might be interested in making love tonight,” or “…having sex tonight. Can we talk about that? Can we talk about a solution? Can we figure out what we want to do together so that we're mutually agreeing?” She's not controlling by being passive, and going to sleep ahead of time, and hoping he won't notice. 15:00 Does that make sense? Bob: It does! What do you say, then, to the wife who says, “You know what? Thirty pounds ago, he was attractive. Today, I'm just not attracted to him.” Or she says, “Thirty pounds ago, I felt attractive. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “And now, I don't feel desirable. Even though he says he's interested, I think, ‘How can you be? Because I look at myself in the mirror and I don't feel attractive.'” What do you say about those issues? Barbara: Well, I think those are just further reflections of our need for transparency and our need for oneness. We got married to be acceptable to one another. We got married to know one another in our strengths and in our weaknesses. So when we gain weight or when things change about us, are we still committed? Are we still called to love one another? Are we still committed to making our marriage all that God wants it to be for as long as we both shall live? Well, we have to learn to love one another in our weaknesses. 16:00 We have to learn to love one another in our imperfections. Yes; it may have been easier when you were both in your 20s and you were both—whatever attracted you to each other—but marriage wasn't built for just when we're in our 20s. Marriage was built for a lifetime. You are going to go through trials and difficulties, and both of you are going to change. Is God big enough to give you the kind of love that will last?—the kind of intimacy that you got married for in those years when you are challenged with health issues, or weight issues, or whatever it is? Dennis: And I know a dad who took his daughters aside—they had several daughters—and he just talked to them about the importance of your attractiveness to your husband: “You need to do your job of being the best—the very best—magnet you can be to your man.” Now, we all know that there are these superstar models out there. Bob: Right. 17:00 Dennis: You're never going to be able to compete at that level, but you know what? You can be a beautiful, attractive wife to your husband. One of the things I appreciate about Barbara is—even when she says she doesn't feel pretty, she's still incredibly attractive to me. I just appreciated her for how she's paid attention to the process of aging. I mean, 44 years—that means our listeners know we're no longer teenagers in our 20s; okay? Forty-four years of marriage—I mean, you've got a lot of gravity to fight by the time you get there. So the point is: “Do you care enough to love your husband in the way that speaks love to him?” Barbara: And it's not just about the exterior; because I think what we're talking about right now—people tend to think it's the exterior. It's not! What makes a person beautiful—what makes a man or a woman beautiful—is our hearts. 18:00 If we pay attention to our hearts, we pay attention to learning to love well, and to do what God has called us to do as men and as women, then we're going to be attractive to one another. Because when Dennis serves me, and denies himself for me, and when he does the kinds of things that I know cost him something—and he's doing it because he loves me—that's attractive to me. I mean, I appreciate that / I respond to that. Any woman alive will do that; because, when she sees a man sacrificing for her—we're just built to respond to that—and vice-versa—when women serve their husbands and love their husbands, that's what makes us attractive. Bob: We've been focusing on your counsel to young wives because, again, that's the subject of the book you've written: Letters to My Daughters. I did want to, before we're done, go back 22 years and let our listeners hear a clip of advice that you shared for husbands in this area of sex and romance, back when we recorded a series on FamilyLife Today, back in 1995— 19:00 Dennis: This is scary! [Laughter] Barbara: It is! Bob: —called—do you remember 1995? Do you remember being 22 years younger than you are now? Barbara: Yes, but that was a long time ago! [Laughter] Bob: Well, we're going to hear this clip in just a minute. Let me, first, let our listeners know how they can get a copy of your book, Letters to My Daughters. It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online at our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, and order your copy of Barbara Rainey's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also order a copy when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the number is 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” By the way, when you're on the website at FamilyLifeToday.com, there's a banner there that says, “Romance Me.” 20:00 If you click that, there's a quiz you can take to talk about your romantic style and your spouse's romantic style and to see where there's compatibility and where there might be areas for growth. Click on that when you're on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can share the romance quiz with friends on Facebook® or on Twitter®. We just thought this would be something fun for you to do and just see how you match up in the area of romance. Let me also say a quick word of thanks to those folks who made today's program possible—it's those of you who support this ministry. Particularly, we want to thank those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners and who provide the financial stability / the backbone for this daily radio program. You really are partners with us in this outreach to marriages and families, all around the world, as we work to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We appreciate your partnership with us. 21:00 If you're able to help with a donation today, we'd love to say, “Thank you,” by sending you Dennis and Barbara Rainey's devotional book called Moments with You. It's our thank-you gift if you make a one-time donation or if you make your first gift as a Legacy Partner. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more or to make a donation. Orcall 1-800-FL-TODAY, and you can donate over the phone. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Now, we promised our listeners that they were going to get a chance to hear some advice that you shared to husbands. We were recording a series called “Creating a More Romantic Marriage.” We were just asking you to help husbands understand how women think on this issue of romance, and intimacy, and sex in marriage. Dennis: Is this the story about Saran Wrap? [Laughter] Barbara: No!! [Laughter] Bob: Stop it! 22:00 Barbara: It's a story about “a + b = c”; right? Bob: Ah, she knows where we're headed! [Laughter] Listen to this clip from 22 years ago: [Previous Interview] Barbara: I don't think that a woman wants to feel pegged; I don't think she wants to feel figured out, button-holed, taken advantage of—whatever you want to call it. I think that that defeats the essence of love. Again, I think that a husband needs to live with her in an understanding way, and to love her as Christ loved the church, and then she will respond to that. Bob: So it sounds to me like the message here to men is: “Once you've found what really communicates love to your wife,— Dennis: —“don't ever do that again!” [Laughter] Bob: That's right. Barbara: Noooo! Bob: — “she will realize it, and she will change the rules. Barbara: That's not true. Bob: “And tomorrow it's going to be something completely different!” [Laughter] Barbara: It makes us sound schizophrenic. Bob: But that's what it feels like for men sometimes! Barbara: I know! Dennis: Well, it feels like it to a man—that, here, he is doing his best to love his wife— Barbara: I understand. Dennis: —and she throws away the rule book. Barbara: I do. 23:00 Dennis: And she says: “I don't want a rule book. I don't want to be figured out.” Barbara: It sounds awful! [Laughter] It really does. Bob: But it's true; isn't it? Barbara: Well, I really do think it's true. I really do, and it's not that she doesn't want those things done again. It's not that you bring her flowers two or three times and she loves it; and then, all of a sudden, she feels like she's been pegged and she doesn't ever want them again for the rest of her life. I think there needs to be variety / there needs to be creativity. She needs to feel like he's thinking about her in different ways at different times and not just the same old, prescribed pattern. [Studio] Bob: So, 22 years later, it still can't be a formula. Is that what you're saying? Barbara: That is correct. It cannot be a formula. Women still want to be pursued / we still want to be figured out. I think it's a very good thing. Dennis: I'm Dennis Rainey, and that's real family life! [Laughter] Bob: I was waiting for you to say, “I approve this message,”— Barbara: Yes! Bob: —but you didn't say that; did you? Barbara: No. Dennis: That was back last fall—we can't say that anymore. [Laughter] 24:00 No; it's really important that men live with their wives in an understanding way and that a husband understands that his wife needs to be loved. That's a lifetime assignment. What communicates love to your wife will be different than mine, and what communicates love to your wife today will be different in a decade. It will grow / it will mature. I'll tell you what you have, as you move into the twilight years of life, you're going to have a great relationship that you wouldn't want to swap out with anybody, even though there've been some very, very difficult times. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgetting What Lies Behind Guest: John and Donna BishopFrom the series: God is So Good Bob: There are moments that come along unexpectedly – moments where the foundation of our life or our marriage is rattled. John and Donna Bishop experienced one of those moments 15 years ago. Donna: Everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord. Our boys and our families and then, all of a sudden, that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital," and so I took him to the hospital and … John: When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her. I really didn't know anything. I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 4th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What happens to a marriage when, all of a sudden, all the memories, all of the past, is gone. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. This is going to be a powerful week for our listeners. Dennis: It is. In fact, Bob, you and I both talked about this interview that our listeners are about to hear. It's a top five broadcast – you and I have been doing interviews for – well, coming up on 16 years – that's a few people. I'm kind of looking across at you, and I'm kind of going, "That's a long time." Bob: You're an old-looking guy. Dennis: We're kind of getting to be codgers in here. But, I'm going to tell you, pull up a chair, get you a cup of coffee or a Coke or a glass of water. This week you are going to hear an incredible compelling story of the goodness of God and the love of God. This is another one of those love stories, Bob, that Hollywood just knows very little about. This is a love story right from the pages of Scripture. Bob: Yes, you're going to meet John and Donna Bishop today. They were married back in 1974. John is a pastor and an evangelist. They live in Rosebud, Arkansas, which is in north central Arkansas. Dennis: It's just near Hopewell, which is a suburb of Heber Springs. Bob: Oh, now folks have got it perfectly in mind. They know exactly where that … Dennis: They know exactly where that is. Bob: John and Donna have three sons, and, as you are about to find out, their story is a remarkable one. John: All I remember is from 1995 to this day. I remember nothing before that, so everything about my life that happened beforehand is what I've been told. And my wife, her name, Donna, but I called her "my Donna." When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her. I didn't know me, my name, I didn't know – I really didn't know anything. I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything. I didn't know how to eat, I'd forgotten how to chew food, and I had to eat baby food, and I don't blame babies being grouchy, if you had to eat that long. Dennis: So, okay, I'm going to stop you right there. John: Okay. Dennis: Since Donna does know what was taking place in your life up to 1995, I'm going to turn to her. Describe your lives in the 1990s, Donna. What was John doing and what were you up to? Donna: Okay. We were pastoring a church there in Heber Springs, and we had a good church. We enjoyed everything was going great. We had three sons, and they were growing up. We also worked on our youth camp there, lived on the campgrounds and started the youth camp, and were just – I would say it was a perfect life. You know, everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord, our boys, and our families, and then, all of a sudden that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital." So I took him to the hospital and … Bob: So it came on in an instant like that. One night? Donna: No, he had been a little sick, just having headaches and so forth, and then it just started getting severe that night, and we just took him to the hospital. Bob: Were you scared? Donna: In a way, you know, because the pain just kept getting worse, you know, so – but, you know, you always think, "Oh, we can take him to the hospital and they'll be fine," you know, "be home tomorrow." Dennis: Right. Donna: But he was there about five days, six days, and he got to feeling better and, of course, once men start feeling better, they want to get out of that hospital, and so he got out of the hospital and came home, and it was almost one month to the day, he got out of the hospital is really when I believe the damage was done, or that's when something happened that he was sitting in his rocking chair, had his devotions over in a rocking chair, and he just kept sitting there and sitting there, and I thought, "Okay," you know, "let's get on with things," and he just kept sitting there. And so I went over and shook him, and he couldn't wake up, he couldn't – he was just kind of staring off. And I said, "John, what's the matter John?" And I was talking to him, and he just couldn't answer me, and then, of course, we took him back to the doctor, and it was just from there on it's been slow go. Bob: Now, the diagnosis was aseptic meningitis? Donna: Yes, sir. Bob: And this response, a month after the initial diagnosis, this is not what usually happens to people who have meningitis, is it? Donna: No, sir. You know, I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but I don't know if we didn't give him the medicine long enough or exactly what it is, but I know the Lord has a reason for it, and so – because that was when everything started going down hill, you might say, to us, you know, because he couldn't walk, and we had to help him around, and his eyes were distorted, so he couldn't drive, and he couldn't – well, he didn't know how to read, he forgot how to read. Dennis: And, ultimately, he lost all of his memory prior to 1995? Donna: Yes, sir. And I kept thinking, "Okay, now, he'll get it back," so he didn't remember marriage or wedding, and so I get our photo album out, and I said, "Don't you remember" you know, and I'd try to trick him to say, "Okay, now, I know he can remember something," and I just kept trying to go back and – but he just doesn't have anything. Dennis: In 1995, you'd been married how long? Donna: Twenty-four years. Dennis: Twenty-four years, had three children, you were pastoring a church, and you'd started a ranch? Donna: Yes, sir. It's a youth camp, a church youth camp for boys and girls that come there. Dennis: All right, John, back to you. How do you develop a relationship with a wife that you don't remember marrying? Bob: Well, you didn't even know what marriage was, did you? John: No, I didn't. When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I, Donna, we're married." And the way I learned to talk, Bob, in those early days, I'd watch people's lips move. I wasn't blind then. I've only been blind about eight months, but I would watch people's lips move and put the sound with it. I said, "Marry? Marry?" and she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that. That means you belong to me, and I belong to you." I looked at her, I'd say, "You my Donna?" She said, "Yes." That's what I call her ever since – "My Donna." It was so easy to love her. She loved me so good. I'd tell people she taught me everything I know – every woman dream come true. Her husband forget it all and she get to teach him. [laughter] Everything I know is what my wife taught me. But I tell everybody she taught me reading, writing, and kissing, and my favorite subject kissing, that's my favorite one. Dennis: So that didn't change? John: No, that didn't. I didn't – I had a hard time finding her lips, but I kissed until I find them, that's what I do. [laughter] Dennis: Donna, what kind of student was he? Donna: He worked hard, he really did. He's a pretty good student. Sometimes when he's done, he's done, you know? Sometimes he'd tell me, he said, "Remember, I'm the husband." Dennis: Oh, so he did find out what that meant? Donna: Oh, yes, it didn't take him long to have that man thing, I guess. Bob: It's one thing to take your husband to the hospital and maybe he comes home with a physical disability, and now life is going to have to change because he has to use a walker, or he's got to be in a wheelchair, or he's got something physically that's an issue, but to have a husband come home – I had a friend describe your husband's condition by saying, "It's like a computer that had the hard disk completely erased. There is no data left there." To have that be the situation and to be a wife and go, "This is the man I went to Bible school with and raised my kids, and he can't remember any of it. Our shared history is gone." That had to be – I can't even imagine the discouragement that you must have felt. Donna: It was very discouraging, and that's why I kept trying to do those tricks, trying to think, "Okay, he's got to remember something," you know? It was hard. It was almost like I had four boys instead of three. Dennis: Was there anything to prepare you for the kind of commitment this was going to take? I mean, marriage is a covenant, but your commitment was challenged to the core, wasn't it? Donna: Yes, sir, it sure was. I thank the Lord. I think the main reason was because I had a good home church when I grew up, and I went to church faithfully, my parents loved each other, and I was always taught that when you're married, you're married for life. And when you say "For better for worse, in sickness and health," you're in for the long haul, you know? And so I never even thought about divorce – that never even crossed my mind. In a way, I guess I just busied myself into fixing the problem, you know? Okay, we've got a problem here. We need to start working on it, and, Lord, you've just got to help give me wisdom to know – because, also, all the decisions that he made as the husband now were put on me as far as my children and how many doctors to go to and who to go to and who not to go to, and I always tell ladies now, I say, "Listen, you need to thank the Lord for your husband's leadership." I mean, I was always thankful for my husband to make the decisions and so forth, but when I had to take that role, it was just something that made me appreciate the position that God has given me to be under my husband so that he could make those decisions for me. And so I'm just very thankful that I was taught those things, and God's just really helped me through these things. Dennis: How old were those children at the time? Donna: My youngest was 10, the next one was, like, 17, and my other one was, like, 22, I think. Dennis: Wow, there was a lot going on in your life just raising them. Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: Now, John, I want you to know we haven't forgotten you. John: Okay. Dennis: We know you're here, but we have to get a little bit of the drama that's taking place. John: Yes. Dennis: You came out of the hospital and arrived back home, and you were in a state of – was it almost like paralysis? Or were you just – you couldn't walk, you couldn't talk. You could see – you had eyesight, right? John: Yes, uh-huh. Dennis: You could hear. John: Yes. Dennis: But you didn't know how to eat? John: No, and I didn't know what words were. That's why I couldn't read or write, and my Donna taught me phonics, finally, and my 10-year-old son would come home from school, sit on the couch and help Daddy learn to read. And my oldest son was in college, the other just finishing high school, been going college, but my family just so good to me, people were just so good. My church was so – I remember, even, when she brought me home from hospital that one time, and they opened the door of car, my dog, golden retriever, came over put head in lap, and I said, "Even my dog loved me." It wasn't really a bad world to wake up to, because everybody in it loved me. And, you know, my first memories of anything about life was my Donna rubbing my hand, telling me, "I love you, it will be all right, everything will be all right," and … Dennis: You knew what those words meant? John: In some way I did. She would have to been sort of point out to me what, like, words "good" and "bad" meant and it's hard to really explain. It was just a blank, and so she would begin to do – teach me these different things, and then as I began to pick up concepts is what it was, and the way I picked up on reading, I couldn't figure out what letters on books – how are they reading. Until one day she got me dressed for church and set me in the living room and on the coffee table was a kindergarten book she going to teach that morning Sunday school and big pictures, Bible story, and what I did, Dennis, I would listen to the Bible every day on tape, because I couldn't read, and I would listen to two tapes a day, three hours, and I remember when she told me what the Bible was – see, I didn't know what I was, either? I said, "What am I?" She said, "You a preacher." I said, "What a preacher is?" And she said, "Well, that's somebody tell others what God what them know." I said, "Wow, I couldn't be thing better that. You reckon Lord let me keep doing it?" And I began to learn concepts, and when I saw those pictures and the big words underneath it, "Moses" and "Red Sea," then I knew that was what I'd been listening to in Bible, and I hollered, "Donna, I can read, I can read." Then I knew what words were, and so that's how I began learning. Dennis: Yeah, how did you know who God was? John: You know, I knew I knew God but I didn't know how I knew God and, matter of fact, in the hospital, one of my doctors said this – I would mumble things, because I knew I supposed to say things, but I didn't know how to. So my doctor said the only word we could make out was the word "God," and it was, like, Dennis, I forgot everybody and everything but God. But I didn't know how I knew Him until through the Bible listening. Of course, my family telling me, "You're a Christian," but I didn't know what that was, and, you know, my church told me, and they loved me, and so forth, but it was a process of me learning and listening to the Bible and what gave me the great assurance was Romans, chapter 8, where he says, "His spirit bear witness with our spirit that we're children of God." And I'd gotten a little worried. You know, it was – when I'd listen to the Bible, Judas Iscariot scared me, because I thought, "Here a preacher that didn't really know or love the Lord." So I thought "Just because I preacher doesn't mean I really know the Lord and just because people tell me," but when I listened to that verse, it was like God said, "John, it my job tell you you're my child. That's my spirit witnessing and after that I never had doubt after that I had that assurance in my heart from this word. That's how I know you, God, but I can't remember praying a prayer. I wrote it in my Bible as a teenage boy, and I've still got that, and some people, Dennis, just put a date. I wrote a whole page, and I treasure that. God knew I'd lose it all one day, and I had a whole page. I was brought up in a lost home. My dad and stepdad had died before my illness, so I don't have any memory of them, but my mother was still alive. She with the Lord now, and Mama told me that I from an alcoholic home. She said, "John, I'm glad you forgot your childhood, it was real rough," but she said I led my dad to the Lord before he had died, my stepdad, and I led her to the Lord. You know, I told my family, "Don't tell me everything, just what I need to know," because you don't really want to know everything sometime," so when I went to Mama's funeral, my aunt came up and said, "John, you used to send your mom a rose every year for she was sober after she got saved." And I said, "Stella, what would this be?" She said, "It would be 12." And so I bought 12 roses and put there, and my aunt and I knew what it was. And so the Lord has been good to help me, and I so glad Mama got to – she'd one day telling me about childhood. I said, "Boy, Mama, I didn't know I was such a good boy." She said, "Remember, I just tell the half of it." [laughter] Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 1 of an incredible story as we have talked to John and Donna Bishop about what the Lord took them through. This is more than a decade ago, now, Dennis, and, you know, all of us, as we shared our vows with one another getting married, we pledged for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, and we may have stopped to think, "Well, how bad can it be?" or "How sick can somebody get?" Who could imagine a scenario like this, like what Donna faced? It's remarkable. Dennis: It really is, Bob, and I just want to let our listeners in on a little secret – don't miss the rest of the story – just the love story that we've heard of Donna Bishop hanging in there with her husband. I know we're talking to some spouses right now who are hanging in there with the person they pledged through sickness and in health, for better, for worse, and right now it's sickness, and it's worse. You needed to hear the story to give you courage, and I just want to read you Paul's great writings about what love is, because the world cheapens what love is, and the Bible speaks so clearly. I'm not going to read all of it, but 1 Corinthians 13, verse 4, "Love is patient, love is kind. It's not jealous, does not brag, and is not arrogant." Verse 7 – "It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things" – now, listen to these last three words – "endures all things." The only way you get that kind of love is by knowing the God – the God who redeemed John and Donna Bishop and who put that kind of love in their hearts for one another. Bob: And that's the – as they used to say, "That's the genuine article." Dennis, right after we had finished talking with the Bishops, I asked if I could get a couple of copies of the CD of the interview, because I meet with a group of guys on Wednesday night, and I wanted them to hear the conversation, and those guys came back the following Wednesday, and they said, "Can we get more copies of that CD? We've got friends we want to send it to. There are people who need to hear this powerful story." And we do have CDs of our conversation with John and Donna available in our FamilyLife Resource Center. If you are interested in getting a copy or multiple copies to share with friends, go to our website, FamilyLife.com. You can click on where it says, "Today's Broadcast," on the right side of the home page, and that will take you to a part of the site where there is more information about how to order the CD of this conversation and how you can get multiple copies, if you'd like. Again, the website if FamilyLife.com, and you click on the right side of the home page where you see "Today's Broadcast," or just call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get a copy of the CD sent to you. You know, when you pull back a story like this, and you hear from a couple like John and Donna, you know that the storm that they faced, they endured, and they stayed strong, because they had spent years building a foundation in their relationship that kept them pressed close to God and close to one another. Dennis: That's right. Bob: I know when you and Barbara sat down and began working on the devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," your hope was that couples all across the country would establish a regular discipline of building their relationship with God and with one another by spending time together looking at His Word, considering the dynamics of a marriage relationship and then praying together each day for their marriage and for their family. And there have been thousands of folks who have contacted us and asked for a copy of this devotional book, "Moments With You." This week we're making it available to our listeners who contact us to make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today. If you go online at FamilyLife.com, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY, and you make a donation of any amount, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the hardback book, the 365-day devotional for couples called "Moments With You." Now, if you're making your donation online, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type the word "You" – y-o-u. And we'll know to send a copy of the book your way. Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329, make a donation of any amount over the phone and just request a copy of the devotional guide for couples, "Moments With You." We're happy to send it to you. We trust that you can use it to begin a regular habit in your marriage of coming together each day, taking a few minutes to read the Scriptures and to pray together, and we trust that God will use this tool in your life. And we appreciate your financial support for the ministry of FamilyLife Today as well. Thanks for partnering with us. Now, we want to invite you back tomorrow. We're going to begin to look carefully at what it took for John and Donna Bishop to rebuild their life and their marriage together after John's memory had been completely erased. I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. ________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Leaning on Jesus Guest: Katie Davis MajorsFrom the series: Daring to Hope (Day 1 of 3) Bob: In the midst of pain and suffering, even those with deep faith find themselves asking questions and wondering, “Why?” Here's Katie Davis Majors. Katie: We know we're supposed to say: “God is in control. God's plan is better,” but what about when we are not feeling that? What about when we are not seeing that? I think another thing God really showed me was that He hurts when I hurt. He desires to comfort me, because He understands my pain. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, December 18th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear from Katie Davis Majors today about how Jesus becomes real when we walk through the valley of the shadow. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. We've got a hero back in the studio with us today. Dennis: We do. I don't think we've ever had a guest introduced by their 14-year-old daughter, but that's what we're going to do here on the broadcast. I, first of all, want to welcome back Katie Davis Majors, married now for how many years? Katie: Almost three! Dennis: Almost three. You'll hear more about that in a moment. My wife Barbara also joins us on the broadcast. Welcome back, Sweetheart. Barbara: Thanks! It's a delight to be here. Dennis: Katie has written a book called Daring to Hope. Many of you probably heard about Katie, about a decade ago, when she wrote a New York Times best-seller, Kisses from Katie. It's a story about her adopting a few Ugandan young ladies. One of those young ladies wrote the afterword for your book—I'm not going to read it all. Katie: Okay. Dennis: It's really not fair that I don't read it all! 2:00 Her name is Joyce—she's 14. Here's what she said about her mom: Katie Majors is my mother. No mother is as brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous as my sweet, awesome mother! Barbara: Sweet! Dennis: You have really got her snowed; don't you? [Laughter] That's not what you say in your book—you talk about losing your temper and getting impatient; but somehow, she didn't ever see any of those moments, I guess; huh? Katie: She's gracious! [Laughter] Dennis: She concludes by saying this: I pray for my mom each day that God would continue to bless her life and use her to do incredible things. I love my mother because she brings glory to God, not only through her gifts, but also by calling out gifts and talents in others, including me. She speaks to us that we, too, can be used by God. 3:00 He works through her to shine His light into the hearts of many. I admire my mother; and I pray that I, too, can live a life like hers, serving others first before myself. No matter what my mother goes through, she will tell you that it is okay; because God has always been with her. She teaches me that I can trust Him to be with me too. Joyce Liberty Majors, age 14 Bob: And a lot of listeners are going, “How do you get a 14-year-old to say things like that about their mother?” [Laughter] Barbara: Exactly! [Laughter] Katie: Yes; you're going to make me cry at the beginning of this interview! Dennis: Where did you find Joyce? Katie: Joyce came to me when she was about five-and-a-half. She had lost both of her parents in the war in northern Uganda. She had been shuffled around since then in some pretty dangerous situations when she was brought to me. 4:00 Dennis: She is one, now, of how many that you have become “Mom” to? Katie: She's one of 14 kids—13 through adoption and 1 that we just gave birth to about a year-and-a-half ago. Dennis: And there's a new dimension to your life that I hinted at earlier—the second love of your life—God being the first. Katie: Yes; yes! Dennis: Benji—tell us about Benji. Katie: Benji! So Benji moved to Uganda about seven years ago. He was really—he had come on a short-term trip to volunteer at a special needs orphanage; but he was really burdened that there were a lot of ministries pouring into women, and a lot of ministries really helping out children, and not a lot of ministries pouring into men—discipling them and teaching them to be good fathers and good husbands. So, he came back, fulltime, just to disciple men and to encourage them in their roles as husband, father, [and] provider for the family. 5:00 He has been doing that now for about seven years. We met when he first came to Uganda. Dennis: Okay; I'm going to stop you there, because we're going to tell more of this story on a later broadcast. Katie: Okay; okay! [Laughter] Dennis: Your book begins in your kitchen. Katie: Yes. Dennis: It's a place where relationships are made / miracles occur. I love it—you must have a little bit of a perfectionist in you—because you talk about mud, and red dirt, and footprints in the first couple of pages of your book that all 14 of these children that you've adopted have to track in there. Katie: Oh, yes! [Laughter] I spend a lot of time in the kitchen, and the kitchen is not very clean a lot of the time. You know, it's amazing how that can happen! It's perfectly pristine before we go to bed; and then, six o'clock in the morning rolls around, and somehow it's in disarray again. Barbara: That sounds like most kitchens for most women! [Laughter] When I started reading that, I thought: “Oh! That sounds like my kitchen!” 6:00It was always sticky on the floor and crumbs everywhere. It's just a part of having a family and having kids. Life does happen in the kitchen. Katie: Yes! Dennis: Your book, Daring to Hope—I told Bob, before you came into the studio—I said, “This is really a book that could be titled Reality Check; because the reality that you have faced in Uganda, over the last decade, has really grown you up in a lot of ways, spiritually.” Comment on that if you would. Katie: Yes; it absolutely has. I mean, I think, in Uganda, suffering is so in your face; but really, that's world-over; right? You can't even turn on the news without seeing some terrible tragedy. I think anybody who can really, truly say that they believe in a good and loving Father has had to ask the question: “Okay; are You really good? And are You really loving? And if You really are good and loving, why is all of this going on around me?” 7:00 Daring to Hope, really, is kind of the chronicle of my journey through some of those questions. Dennis: Yes; and I would say: “If there's a listener, right now, who's going through a hard time—and you're kind of confused—you're maybe disappointed/discouraged—I think Daring to Hope would be a great book to pick up and read; because it's going to pull you out of your valley and remind you of the truth about God. That's really the message of Katie's book. She just wants people to know the truth about God so, as they face their reality, they will be able to trust Him as well. Bob: Yes. Katie: Thank you. I really did write it to encourage people that, no matter what they're going through—you know, it probably looks a lot different than what I was going through in Uganda—but in the midst of pain and hardship and trial, I knew Jesus in a way that I wouldn't have known Him outside of those circumstances. I believe that's His desire for all of us, no matter what our hardship is— 8:00 —just that we would know His comfort and we would know that we are so deeply loved. Bob: The last time you were with us, you shared about how, as a teenager, God gave you a heart and a vision for Uganda. You went there at 19 to care for orphans; and you started caring for them, and you started bringing them home. You started adopting them. Before you were married, you were already a mother to—how many was it? Katie: Thirteen. Bob: Thirteen kids. So you haven't adopted any new ones since marriage? Katie: No; we had all 13 of our girls before we got married. Bob: And have you thought about expanding since you've been married? You've obviously expanded, because you've got a new baby in the house. Have you thought about additional adoptions, or is 13 where it ends? Katie: Well, I mean, I think we're really open to however the Lord leads. If He would make a need very apparent, then we would definitely be open to it. I think we've seen more and more, over the years, the beauty of empowering local people to adopt. 9:00 We've seen local people become more and more open to the idea of adopting. My 13 girls were all situations where—through our ministry, we sponsor children—we send them to school; we pay for some of their food; we do a discipleship program with them—all in the hopes of keeping them with their biological family, because most biological families really do want their kids. It's just such a financial burden for them that they give them up. Our ministry is really geared toward empowering the family to care for their own children. My 13 are all groups of siblings that were older and, for whatever reason, either didn't have biological family they could be placed with or it wasn't a safe situation for them. But in the last, probably, seven years, we've had several more instances where that has happened with children that we're in relationship with through ministry— 10:00 —maybe both of their parents have died or maybe they're already staying with a grandparent and the grandparent has died. We've actually had a lot of Ugandan staff in our ministry say, “Oh, I could open my home to that child,”—especially because Amazima is covering the basics like medical care or schooling. The Ugandan culture is beautifully hospitable and relational. We've just seen so much openness from our staff and other Ugandans, we're in relationship with, to adopt. I think, for us, it's really on our hearts that we would first—we would, first, always seek out biological family; but even beyond that, we would seek out if there were a Ugandan family in our community that would desire to adopt that child. Dennis: You've been foster care parents— Katie: Yes. Dennis: —for a lot of kids. Katie: Yes. Dennis: One of the reasons why is the HIV/AIDS virus that has taken out so many people's lives in Uganda. Katie: Yes. 11:00 Dennis: I don't think people in America realize what this disease is doing to the populations of many African countries. Tell about the little girl, by the name of Jane, who came to you because of that disease. Katie: Jane is a child we fostered, but we fostered her long-term. We've had other short-term foster children, in and out of our home over the years, but we've always known that they were a short-term placement and that our goal was reunification with family. With Jane, we didn't believe that that was our goal. Jane had been abandoned when she was about nine months old and brought to me when she was around one. We searched and we looked for her biological family. We sent out radio and newspaper advertisements; and we didn't find any family that was willing to care for her. I began fostering her and began the process to make her adoption legal as well. We had her for about three years when her biological mom came back in the country from Kenya. 12:00 She tracked us down and, really, just showed up and said that she desired to parent Jane. I mean, my heart was just torn in two; because my life's ministry was about empowering the family and, at the same time, I felt like this was my daughter. I was the only mother she had ever known since I'd had her from the time she was a little baby. She was a sister to my daughters. This was really not something that we had expected or seen coming. That's kind of one of the first stories in the book, where I begin kind of asking God, “Okay; when I'm praying and I'm praying—and I'm praying for something specific, such as Jane to come back and live with us—and that doesn't happen, ‘Where are you then, God?'” or “If I think I know what's best for me, for my family, [and[ for this child, who is now confused and traumatized— 13:00 —and I think I know what would be good for her—how do I trust that, “No, truly, God knows what's best for each one of us involved'?” Dennis: And Jane's mom was not skilled, as a parent; and you could easily spot that. You knew that you were handing her back over to her biological mom to be raised in, certainly, a less-than-perfect situation. Katie: Yes; it was very scary—her mom didn't have a great track record. She went to live there for a little while, and then they actually ended up coming to stay with us for a while while her mom was between jobs. I feel like we were able to pour into both of them for a while, and then her mom got another job and was able to move out for a while. But since then—they lived near us for a long time—and since then, they have moved away; so we don't even really have a ton of contact with them anymore. Dennis: You know, that question that you found yourself wrestling with is a question that we all wrestle with in life. Katie: Right. 14:00 Bob: I remember back when the shooting in Las Vegas happened in the United States. I wrote an article about: “How do we process this kind of disaster? How do we help our kids understand it?” I said, “You've got to remind yourself of what's true—that God is in control / that He's sovereign.” I kind of rehearsed what we all know is true. Katie: Right. Bob: And I remember somebody commenting at the bottom of the article with, “Yeah, yeah, yeah; blah, blah, blah,” and I get it. Katie: Right. Dennis: Sure. Bob: I get that that is a less-than-satisfying answer in the midst of the pain, but I don't know a better answer to that; do you? Katie: I don't. I know—you know, as I was writing this book, I didn't want it to be a bunch of Christian platitudes; right? Bob: Right; right. 15:00 Katie: We know we're supposed to say: “God is in control. God's plan is better,” but what about when we are not feeling that? What about when we are not seeing that? I think another thing God really showed me was that He hurts when I hurt. He desires to comfort me, because He understands my pain. It's the same, you know, for the shooting in Las Vegas—for people who've lost people—it's not that God looks on and says, “Okay; okay,”—you know? God is devastated by that suffering. He is deeply grieved, and He hurts alongside of us. I think that gave me even more comfort than knowing that God was in control— Bob: Yes. Katie: —and knowing that God had a plan. I was comforted knowing that God saw my hurt. He experienced it with me, and He desired to love me in the midst of it. Bob: In Romans, Chapter 8, where it talks about the reality of our adoption— 16:00 —that God has adopted us / that we are joint-heirs—it goes on to throw this curve ball in the middle of talking about all of this blessing. It says, “Here is what God has given to those He loves—we have His Spirit / we are joint-heirs if we suffer with Him.” Katie: Yes; yes. Bob: It's kind of like: “Why did you have to throw that in there, God? Why couldn't it just be, ‘Here's what you get'?” Dennis: Yes. Bob: But there is a connection between glory and suffering— Katie: Yes. Bob: —that we're adverse to, but that is a part of God's plan for us. Katie: I absolutely believe that. You know, Paul even says that “it has been granted unto me, not just to preach the gospel of Christ, but to suffer with Him.” Bob: Yes. Katie: I always read that and think: “Oh, God! Let that be my perspective on it—that it has been granted unto me—because, through suffering, I might know a part of God's heart that I wouldn't know otherwise.” Dennis: I have a friend, who was in a tragic plane crash. While he was struggling for his life in the hospital, I performed the funeral for his five-year-old son. He made this statement that certainly anyone could make; but a person in his place, having lost a son—it just becomes really profound—he said, “Life wouldn't be so difficult if we didn't expect it to be so easy.” And what your book does—is your book really forces us to realize that there are going to be prayers that appear to be unanswered. Katie: Yes. Dennis: There's going to be brokenness that continues on—in our own lives and in the lives of those we love—but we have to trust the God Who is going to be near us. That's really the message of your book— 18:00 —that, in the process of struggling over these prayers that appear to be unanswered or have an answer that's a “No,”—you've gotten to know Jesus Christ in a way you couldn't have known Him otherwise. Katie: Yes! Absolutely! I think I've learned that God isn't promising us a world without trouble, or without pain, or without heartache; but He's promising us Himself; right? He calls Himself “Emmanuel” / “God with us.” He's promising to be near to us, and that's the greatest gift. Barbara: Well, I couldn't agree more; because I have learned over the decades of my life that the hard times are the times when I have gotten to know Christ more. He knows that about us. He knows that if life is easy—and it's good and everything works out the way we want it to—we're not going to need Him—we won't depend on Him / we won't be forced, on our face, to seek Him. And so, as hard as the hard things are, they're really good things—good that God intends to work in us. 19:00 I was just talking to someone last weekend about this—we were both saying, “We wouldn't wish what we've been through on anyone, but we wouldn't trade it for anything because of what we know of Him now that we wouldn't have known apart from that experience.” That's a part of what I love so much about your book—is that it speaks to that—that everyone experiences. God deals with us, as individuals. What He brings in your life is different than what He brings in my life; but it's all for the purpose of knowing Him and knowing Him as He really is, not as we imagine Him to be. That's such a good thing. Dennis: I can't imagine a 29-year-old writing this book. That's what I told Bob when we came in the studio—I said: “It's because of where Katie's been/— Barbara: Yes. Katie: That's right. Dennis: —“it is what she's seen—the number of people she's prayed over for healing, for God to rescue them from HIV/AIDS, and God said, ‘No,' and took them on to heaven.” Katie: Yes. 20:00 Dennis: But you have a perspective that you're passing on that I think, really—Bob, all of us today in America, where we live with so many comforts and we're removed from the slums, where Katie has taught a Bible study. We're removed from the graveside—we may go to a funeral or two a year—but Katie's been to a bunch of them over the years, and that's where perspective is. Ecclesiastes says, “It is better to go to the house of mourning than it is to go to the house of pleasure; because in the end, the living take it to heart.” Bob: You know, this is a book that reminds us that most of the problems that we're facing are what we call “first world problems.” That doesn't mean they're not real and challenging; it just means we have to keep life in perspective and know what really matters. Katie, you point us to that in your book, Daring to Hope: Finding God's Goodness in the Broken and the Beautiful. 21:00 We've got copies of the book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” I have to tell you—we just recently had an opportunity to be in a number of cities with listeners to FamilyLife Today and had a chance to hear from many of you how God has used this ministry in your life in some significant ways—and how He is still at work, using the ministry of FamilyLife Today to help you grow in grace / to provide practical biblical help and hope to your marriage / your family. It's always encouraging when we get an opportunity to be face to face with listeners. 22:00 On behalf of the folks we had a chance to meet, I want to thank those of you who are Legacy Partners and those of you who support this ministry financially. You need to know that your investment in the lives of people all across the country and around the world is paying off. God is using FamilyLife Today powerfully in the lives of so many people. It was encouraging for us to see some of that first-hand. I know some of you are thinking about yearend giving—ministries or organizations where you might like to make a yearend financial contribution. We have a special opportunity for you, here, at FamilyLife to be invested in this ministry. There's a matching-gift fund that's been made available to us; and it means that your donation, here, at yearend will be doubled. Our friend, Michelle Hill, is here with an update on how things are going with the matching-gift fund. Hello, Michelle! 23:00 Michelle: Bob, I have some BIG news about the match fund!...and this is breaking for us, so I'm a little out on a limb here, but Jordan just told me the matching fund is going to double…as in over four million dollars!! (…and we don't know exactly because this is happening almost as I speak) …but more than ever, we'll need every listener to pray, seek God, and give as He directs. You know, four million dollars seems big to me…but Bob? I believe God's generosity is at work here, so I'm asking everyone, please just prayerfully do whatever God calls you to do to, and you know what? While you're at it, praise Him for His amazing generosity! right now we're at seven hundred ninety one thousand dollars! Bob: And it is easy to make an online donation. You can do that at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. 24:00 We'll look forward to your update again tomorrow, Michelle. And we hope you'll be back with us again tomorrow when Katie Davis Majors will be here. We're continuing to talk about her life in Africa and her life as a newly-married adoptive mother of 13 children and a bio mom of a baby boy. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
A Life Worth Living (Part 1) - Elisabeth ElliotA Life Worth Living (Part 2) - Elisabeth ElliotFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Life Worth LivingDay 1 of 2 Guest: Elisabeth Elliott From the series: What in Life is Worth Living For? Bob: Fifty years ago this week, five American missionaries were martyred by Quechua Indians in rural Ecuador. Their deaths shook the world, but the legacy of their heroism continues to this day. One of the people most profoundly impacted by those events 50 years ago this week is the widow of one of the martyred missionaries, Elisabeth Elliott, the wife of Jim Elliott. As a young widow, she faced questions about the wisdom and the goodness of God, and she faced them head-on. Elisabeth: Once upon a time, before you were born, there were, in Ecuador a tribe of so-called "savages." Not very much was known about these people. They were naked, they used stone tools, and they killed strangers. One of the questions that people ask me more frequently than any other is how have you handled bitterness? And usually they mean wasn't I bitter against God because of some of the things that have happened in my life. Suffering is a gift. Paul says, "Unto us it is given not only to believe but also to suffer." Is it worth it? How many things can you think of that are worth suffering for? He is Lord of my life, and when I asked Him, at the age of 12, to be Lord of my life, I turned over to Him all the rights. There is nothing worth living for unless it's worth dying for. Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition, Tuesday, January 3rd. I don't know about the rest of our listeners, but just hearing that voice … Dennis: You're speaking of Elisabeth Elliott. Bob: Yeah. She has always been somebody that – when I listen to her, I feel like I'm being encouraged and scolded kind of at the same time. You know what I mean? She just has that sense she's calling you to the highest that God would have for your life. Dennis: She always did that in my life and, as you know, Bob, she has become a good friend of ours. Elisabeth and her husband, Lars – well, she's just a great friend. And what we wanted to do in featuring her on today's broadcast is take our listeners back some 50 years, because this Sunday, January 8th, is the 50th anniversary of the martyrdom of five young men who, by faith, flew back into the jungle to lead an uncivilized tribe of people who had never heard the name of Jesus Christ, and who ultimately were murdered on behalf of their faith. And Elisabeth Elliott, of course, is the widow of one of those men, Jim Elliott. Bob: And as some listeners know, Elisabeth made the courageous decision many months after that, to go back into that jungle and to continue the work that her former husband had begun, and she helped to lead a number of those people to Christ including some of the men who had murdered her husband. And with that historical perspective in mind, we thought it would be good today for our listeners to hear some of her reflections on her husband, his faith, his character, on that time in her life, and on her interaction with the Waodani tribe in Ecuador back in the late 1950s. Dennis: I think it's going to be a spiritual wheel alignment for some of our listeners who are right now walking through a valley of sorts. Maybe it's the valley of the shadow of death, maybe it's circumstances that can't be defined or explained or even understood after reading the Bible, but God can be trusted, and that's what you're going to hear from Elisabeth Elliott. A number of years ago, we had the privilege of interviewing her talking to single people, interestingly enough, about the quest for love, and in that interview, Bob, as you and I talked to her, she started talking about how she viewed those circumstances surrounding the loss of her husband. Elisabeth: In Deuteronomy 8, Moses is reviewing the history of the children of Israel, and he says, "He suffered you to hunger in order that He might know what was in your heart." And you remember that the children of Israel were wailing and screaming and complaining because they didn't have the leeks and onions and garlic and watermelons and fish that they'd had back in Egypt, and they were sick and tired of this stuff they got every day – manna. And it says that a company of strangers came in and said, in effect, "Is this all you've got here?" And so instead of the Lord removing the desire for leeks and onions and garlic, He caused them to hunger for this purpose – that He might know what was in their hearts, and I don't know any situation in which we are more likely to find out what is really in our hearts than where we have been deprived of something that we thought we should have. And, of course, I was deprived of my husband, Jim, and the Lord was saying to me, "Now I want you to glorify me as a single woman again, and I am giving you this gift, and I want you to fulfill this calling faithfully, gladly, and humbly." I would just get down on my knees and just say, "Lord, you know what my natural feelings are about this but, Lord, I have surrendered them all to you long ago. It was when I was 12 years old that I prayed Betty Scott Stamm's prayer – "Lord, I give up all my own plans and purposes, all my own desires and hopes, and accept Thy will for my life in acceptance lieth peace," and I know that's true. It happened again when Ad [ph] was taken from me. He was prayed over, he was anointed, we had people coming from across the country telling me they had a word of knowledge that God wanted to heal Ad Leach. He died, and the Lord is saying, "So here is the gift of widowhood again." Dennis: One of the themes of your books that seems to be in all of them is the call for the Christian to endure in the midst of suffering. You believe the Scripture calls us to remain faithful in the midst of circumstances that aren't working out to what we wish they would. Elisabeth: Suffering is a gift, Dennis, it is a gift. Paul says, "Unto us it is given not only to believe but also to suffer," and Jesus referred to the cup that my father has given me. What was in that cup? He was reviled, He was persecuted, He was hated, He was mocked, He was captured, He was flogged, He was blindfolded, He was stripped, and He was crucified. That was the cup, and we know that his human nature was in agony over that. He sweat, as it were, great drops of blood in Gethsemane and finally said, "Not my will," he said, "If it be possible, let this cup pass." The cup didn't pass. It wasn't possible because He could not save Himself and save you and me. Dennis: One of the most memorable stories I've ever heard you tell is the story of Gladys Aylworth. It illustrates what we're talking about here in a most profound way. Would you share that with our listeners? Elisabeth: Well, Gladys Aylworth was a London parlormaid with no education, and she believed that God was calling her to China, and when her brother found her studying a map, he said, "Well, Glad, where are we going?" And she said, "To China." And he said, "Glad, you must be out of your mind," and she said, "Jehovah God has spoken to me, and I am going to China. Well," she said, "I didn't know where China was, but I got a map, and I studied." Then she tells the long story of how she took a train all the way across Europe and Russia and Mongolia and China, and she ended up standing on the wharf in Shanghai, and she said, "When I was a child, I had two great sorrows. All my friends had beautiful golden curls, and mine was black. And when all my friends were still growing, I stopped. Well, I stood on a wharf, and I looked over all these people to whom Jehovah God had sent me, and every single one of them had black hair, and every single one of them had stopped growing when I did. And I said, 'Lord God, you know what you're doing.'" Bob: I just love hearing her. Dennis: It's a great story. In fact, that is one of my favorite stories because what she is illustrating there is what life is all about – are you going to trust Him that He really does know what He's doing when you are in the middle of circumstances that can't be explained humanly. And Elisabeth Elliott, as she went through adulthood continued to find herself in unexplainable circumstances. Bob: She married again. Her husband, Ad – she was married to him for four years. He developed cancer and died. She was single again for a number of years until she married her third husband, Lars, and she often said that she was single more years in life than she was married. She also often said that Lars hoped that he'd outlast the other husbands. Dennis: And, you know, Bob, it was that aspect of Elisabeth Elliott that really resulted in me inviting her to come speak at a conference we had for singles. It was called "The Keystone Caper." Bob: This was more than 20 years ago, right? Dennis: Right, right, in Keystone, Colorado. It was over Thanksgiving, it was for singles, and I really had a passion for speaking to singles about giving their lives to Christ and then following Him as Elisabeth Elliott had done, and we actually went back into the archives and dusted off pieces of five messages she gave at the Keystone Caper back in the mid-'80s. And, I'm telling you, it's just as relevant today as it was to those singles 20 years ago. Bob: And she exhorted those singles to trust God to be Lord – that He is Lord, and you need to trust Him that He does know what He is doing, and she elaborated on the story that she'd told us in the studio about John and Betty Stamm and the impact they had had early on in her life. Elisabeth: He is Lord of my life, and when I asked him, at the age of 12, to be Lord of my life, I turned over to Him all the rights. I prayed a prayer written by a missionary to China, a woman by the name of Betty Scott Stamm. But this prayer made a very deep impression on my life, and I copied it into my Bible, and it has become a part of my prayer life. It's really just an expansion on those simple words in The Lord's Prayer, "Thy will be done." "Lord, I give up all my own plans and purposes, all my own desires and hopes and accept Thy will for my life. I give myself, my life, my all, utterly to Thee to be Thine forever. Fill me with Thy Holy Spirit, use me as Thou wilt, send me where Thou wilt, work out Thy whole will in my life at any cost now and forever," and Betty Scott Stamm and her husband, John, were beheaded by Chinese Communists. She had been a guest in our home. You can imagine what a deep impression the news item made on a little child. "Work out Thy whole will in my life at any cost" – and if you and I could speak with John and Betty Stamm today, do you think they would be thankful for the ways of God with them? Their praises would be ringing, no question about that. "He is Lord of my life, He holds all the rights" – when my husband, Jim Elliott, was killed, the words that came to my mind when I first knew that he was missing were from Isaiah 43, verse 2 – "When thou passes through the waters, I will be with thee." And when, five days later, I learned that he was, in fact, dead, the words that came to me were from a poem that I had memorized many years before by F.W.H. Myers, a poem called "St. Paul," and the final stanza says this – "So through life, death, through sorrow and through sinning; Christ shall suffice me, for He has sufficed. Christ is the end, for Christ was the beginning. Christ, the beginning for the end is Christ." My life verse is Philippians 1:21 – "To me, to live, is Christ." Bob: You know, as Elisabeth commented on getting the news as a child that this couple that had been in their home had been beheaded as missionaries, she had no way of knowing that her own husband, years later, would be speared as a missionary; that this was going to be a part of the story of her life – this kind of heroic engagement, the surrendering of your life for the service of God. It marked her life from an early age. Dennis: And, Bob, the thing our listeners need to hear on this – I think there's two very, very important lessons to not miss. Number one, life can't be found outside of the Lordship of Christ, period. If you want to live life the way the Creator of the Universe designed it to be lived, it's lived submitted to Jesus Christ and His will for your life. You're never going to find it anywhere else. I was just reflecting as I was listening to Elisabeth, I was thinking, I don't think we're talking enough about this. In fact, I can't remember the last time I heard a message from Romans, chapter 12, verse 1 and 2, where it challenges us to not be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind and presenting yourself a living sacrifice to God, giving it all to Him, giving your life to Him, giving up all rights of your life to Him. Bob: That's what sacrifice means. You're dead to self and alive to Christ. Dennis: And I think there is a need in our homes, husbands and wives, parent to child, to remind one another where life is found, and that leads me to the second point of application here. I think our children need to be exposed to the great saints. If you have a chance to have a missionary in your home, or a preacher, or someone who walks with God with great faith, seize that opportunity. Don't go out to eat at a fast-food restaurant, don't go anywhere busy, go somewhere where you won't have any distractions, where you can have conversation for another hour after the meal is over, and don't let your kids go play Nintendo. Even though they act like they won't be listening, they'll hear. And I think as a result of that, what will happen is what occurred in Elisabeth Elliott's life. The children will be challenged to give their lives wholly and totally to the Lordship of Christ, and what will result there is when they grow up they will not waste their lives. They will live their lives to the glory of God. Bob: And this theme of the Lordship of Christ and abandoning your own life for His service was something that was a constant theme in Elisabeth Elliott's life. Not only was it a life message because of what she had experienced with the martyrdom of her husband and the others back in 1956, but it was a theme that continued to permeate her ministry. In fact, when we had her on FamilyLife Today a number of years ago, she reinforced again for us this idea that Lordship is everything. Elisabeth: Jesus said, "If you want to be My disciple – you don't have to be – but if you want to be, these are the conditions. Number one, give up your right to yourself. Now, of course, that's difficult. It is the most difficult thing that God could ever ask of us, especially in today's climate, where everybody says, "It's your life, it's your body, you have a right to yourself, if it feels good do it, if it doesn't feel good forget it, don't let anybody tell you what to do," and Jesus quietly continues to say to us, "If you want to be My disciple, give up your right to yourself. Secondly, take up the cross." Now, in what form is that going to be presented? It is going to be presented in the form of suffering. What else do we expect? The cross is an instrument of torture. Why should we be surprised? So, of course, we are going to have to get down on our knees again and again and ratify that once-in-a-lifetime surrender. As I said, I had made that surrender when I was 12 years old, but there isn't a day that goes by, Dennis, and I am not exaggerating – there's not a day that goes by in which I do not have to consciously take up the cross in some form or other – usually in many forms in any given day. Bob: That's a great reminder from Elisabeth Elliott. We, daily, have to take up our cross. Dennis: And, Bob, as she said, it has many forms, and yet it's still lived out in the midst of humanity. You know, Bob, the reason we're talking about this 50th anniversary of the martyrdom of these five young men who gave their lives in Ecuador is because we want to, first of all, honor their faith and their courage, and Elisabeth Elliott and the other widows who embraced that trial as well. But there is a second aspect I don't want our listeners to miss because we have a number of singles who listen to this broadcast, a number of parents who are raising the next generation and, for that matter, we have some who are empty-nesters, who are in prime time, who I think need to take stock of their lives and evaluate how they are going to live the rest of their lives. And we want to challenge folks to consider – has he called you to invest your life in the mission field? And it could be right where you're living. You don't have to go around the world to Ecuador or into a jungle. The jungle may be just down the street in a housing project near your home, or it may be in some areas of your community that just needs someone to reach out and touch marriages that are decaying and falling apart – or in your church. But let me tell you something – the needs of our nation in the spiritual realm are great, and today, more than ever, we need to be challenging adults as well as the parents who are raising the next generation. Give your kids a picture of world missions, of what it means to go to the world, but the greatest news – forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ. There is no greater privilege in life than giving your life for that cause. Bob: I think you're right, we don't know what the Lord is going to call you to, whether it's here, whether it's there, but we do know what he's called all of us to, and it's what Elisabeth talked about today – to follow Him, to take up our cross, to die daily to our own flesh and our own desires. Dennis: Then follow Christ. Bob: To be about His mission, His agenda in the world today. This past summer, I had my whole family watch with me the documentary that was made by the same company that produce the movie, "End of the Spear" that's coming out in a couple of weeks. "End of the Spear" is a theatrical motion picture that is going to tell the story of the martyrdom of the missionaries. It actually tells it from the perspective of the Waodanis, the tribe that did the spearing. Dennis: Your children have to be old enough to read if they're going to go to the movie, because it's … Bob: It's got subtitles. Dennis: Right. It's not in English. Bob: But this summer, our family watched the documentary that was produced by the same company that tells the story of the martyrdom of the missionaries using historical archive video footage, photographs, interviews with those who were there, and it was a powerful evening. We've got that documentary available on DVD. It's called "Beyond the Gates of Splendor," and I'd encourage our listeners to get a copy of this DVD and to watch it as a family or to show it to the youth group at church, use it in a variety of settings. It brings home the reality of what took place 50 years ago this week with the martyrdom of these missionaries. In addition, we have Elisabeth Elliott's book called "Through Gates of Splendor," which is her telling of that same story, which would be a book you could read to your children or a book that they could read on their own. If you've never been acquainted with this story, maybe this is the first time you've heard about these events, Elisabeth's book is a classic. It's one of those books that would be on my list of a book that every Christian ought to read. Again, it's called "Through Gates of Splendor." We have both her book and the DVD "Beyond the Gates of Splendor" in our FamilyLife Resource Center. Contact us by go online at FamilyLife.com. Click on today's broadcast, and you'll find a link there to the various resources that are available. You can order online, if you'd like, and if you order both Elisabeth's book and the DVD, we can send you at no additional cost the CD audio that includes the clips from Elisabeth Elliott we've been featuring here this week. Again, go to our website, FamilyLife.com, click on today's broadcast in the center of your screen, and that will take you right to the page where there is more information about the resources that are available from us here at FamilyLife Today. Let me, if I can, Dennis, just say a quick word of thanks to the folks we heard from at the end of the year. Many of our listeners know we had a matching gift challenge in the month of December where every dollar we received was being matched on a dollar-for-dollar basis up to a total of $350,000, and I haven't seen the final numbers yet, but I do know we heard from many of our listeners, and I think it's safe to say at this point that we think we were able to take full advantage of that matching gift opportunity. So thank you to those of you who called or who wrote or who donated online. We appreciate your support, we appreciate you helping us meet the match, and we appreciate your ongoing investment in this ministry. Tomorrow we are going to be back with more insights from Elisabeth Elliott as she reflects on the events that took place 50 years ago this week with the martyrdom of five American missionaries. I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
A Life Worth Living (Part 1) - Elisabeth ElliotA Life Worth Living (Part 2) - Elisabeth ElliotFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Life Worth LivingDay 2 of 2 Guest: Elisabeth Elliott From the series: Jim Elliott – "He is No Fool" Bob: This week on FamilyLife Today we are commemorating events that took place 50 years ago; events that shook a nation. Here is Elisabeth Elliott. Elisabeth: One day in October of 1955, Nate Saint flew into our station to tell us that he had discovered the Auca houses. Within a very short time, Ed McCully, that politician from Wisconsin; Jim Elliott from Oregon; and Nate Saint instituted a program of dropping gifts to those Indians with the hope that they would be able to break down their hostility and prepare the way for an attempt to reach them. You can imagine our excitement, our trembling, the prayers that went up. And on the evening in January of 1956, just before these men left to go into the edge of Auca territory – by this time they had been joined by Roger Youderian and Pete Fleming – they sang together that hymn – "We Rest on Thee, Our Shield and our Defender." A week later they were all speared to death. Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition – Wednesday, January 4th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. This Sunday, January 8, commemorates the 50th anniversary of the martyrdom of those missionaries in rural Ecuador, and, I don't know, do you remember where you were the first time you heard the story of those five missionaries? Dennis: Bob, I was almost eight years old in Southwest Missouri, and I do not recall hearing about it as a little boy. Bob: It did make the news. Dennis: It did? Bob: It was in "Life" magazine and other periodicals. But you didn't hear about it until later in life? Dennis: I heard about it finally in college, and it was through reading Elisabeth Elliott's book, "Through the Gates of Splendor," and, for me, as a college student, to get that book and have it be such a page-turner – I had just given my life to Christ, and I think what made it compelling reading for me, as a collegian, was that I was 20 years old, I was looking at life with eyes that were alive to the spiritual work of God in human beings' lives, and I had freshly given my life to Christ, and His Lordship of all the areas of my life, and so here is a couple, Jim and Elisabeth Elliott, who had given their lives to Christ and his Lordship, and Jim Elliott gave his life, literally, was martyred for his faith, and then Elisabeth, his wife, went into that tribe after he had been murdered by them to love them, speak with them, learn their language and customs and ultimately share her faith in the Gospel and his forgiveness with them. Bob: That book that you mentioned, "Through Gates of Splendor," is a book that God has used over the years in remarkable ways to not only tell the story but to talk about what it really means to live with Christ as Lord, and I think it's probably stirred the hearts of a number of people who have ended up involved in world missions in some foreign field, carrying on the legacy of Jim Elliott and Nate Saint and the others who were killed on the beach on January 8, 1956. Dennis: And I'm glad, Bob, there's now been a full-length feature movie that has been made called "The End of the Spear," that's going to be released here in a couple of weeks. It's a great movie. You and I have seen it together and, personally, I think what's going to happen as this film comes out is the very thing we've been talking about here – I think there's going to be a generation of young people who see this story and who, all of a sudden, start evaluating their faith. Now, I think adults are going to do the same, but I think there's going to be a generation of young people in youth groups, in junior high, high school, and college, and they're going to evaluate what they're living for and who they're living for. And as a result, I think we're going to see a fresh crop of missionaries head to the world. At least that's my prayer as this film comes out. Bob: You were in the audience in Kansas City in 1983 when Elisabeth Elliott addressed a crowd of students who had assembled there for an event that Campus Crusade was sponsoring called "KC '83," and she talked about those five young men, who were all in their 20s. They were at the beginning of their adult life, and they had headed off to the field. She described their lives, and I think what she did was she painted a picture so that everyone in the audience could go, "That could be me." We wanted our listeners to hear how she described the lives of those five men who were martyred that day 50 years ago this week. Elisabeth: Once upon a time, before you were born, there were in Ecuador, a tribe so-called "savages." Not very much was known about these people. They were naked, they used stone tools, and they killed strangers. Nobody had ever gone into their territory and come out alive. Missionaries had been praying that God would enable them someday to take the Gospel to these Aucas, but it had never happened, and it wasn't until 1956 that the first Operation Auca was attempted. Five young American men banded together to do this. I want to tell you a little about who they were and how they got there. First, there was Nate Saint from Philadelphia, one of the founders of the Missionary Aviation Fellowship. He inaugurated the program of jungle flying in the Eastern jungle of Ecuador. Pilots who have watched film footage of some of Nate's landings on those canyons of green trees in the jungle have said that it's impossible. Nate was a genius; he was a rather slightly built blond guy with a terrific sense of humor; a creative imagination; and an almost fanatical discipline and caution as a flyer. Then there was Roger Youderian, a cowboy from Montana. He went into World War II as a paratrooper; was wounded; and somehow he ended up in the Eastern jungle of Ecuador working with the Jivaros, those Indians that you've heard of who used to shrink people's heads and put them up on poles around their houses or wear them on their belts – really nice guys. The next man was Pete Fleming from Seattle, Washington, an earnest, scholarly type who had a master's degree in literature and planned on an academic career. God had another plan for Pete, and Pete ended up in the jungle of Ecuador working with the Quichua Indians reducing their language to writing and beginning the rudiments of Bible translation. Ed McCully was a guy that I knew in college, and when I think back, there is hardly anybody who seemed less likely to me to become a missionary than Ed McCully. He was handsome – good looks can open a lot of doors, but I don't think they'll get you very far on a mission field. Doesn't it seem like kind of a waste? I mean, here was this guy, six-feet-three, football player, track star, president of his class, and when the Hearst newspaper chain sponsored a nationwide oratorical contest, there were 20,000 entrants. Just picture everybody that's at KC '83 entering that oratorical contest. Ed McCully won first place. He was smooth. We thought he'd make a great politician. That's what he was going to be. He had charisma, and he went to law school. But God changed his mind after he got into law school and somehow he, too, ended up in some God-forsaken corner of the Eastern jungle of Ecuador – again, a missionary to the Quichuas. Why would a guy like that bury himself in the jungle? Couldn't he find more fruitful ways to use his gifts? All those talents that God had given him? Wasn't that an awful waste? Well, yes, it was, if, what matters to you is self-image, fame, money, success, a terrible waste. The backwoods isn't really a very auspicious place to pursue those kinds of things. Then there was the fifth man, one I got to know pretty well. His name was Jim Elliott. Bob: We're going to hear more from that message at KC '83 in just a few minutes but, of course, Jim Elliott, the one that Elisabeth got to know was her husband for a little more than two years. He had been president of his class at Wheaton College. He was from Portland, Oregon, and she tells the story of her romance and her marriage to Jim Elliott in her book, "Passion and Purity," which has been read by hundreds of thousands of people. But these five men – Jim and Roger and Pete and Ed and Nate – they are heroes, do you think? Dennis: They are, and when Elisabeth Elliott spoke in KC '83, which was a gathering of college students from all across the country – it was spitting snow outside, but it was warm inside. It was a huge, cavernous, almost like a warehouse, but they had set up this convention with Elisabeth Elliott speaking to these collegians, and she shared how these young men gave their lives for their faith. Elisabeth: You don't just decide one Tuesday morning that you're going to be a hero of the faith. There has to be a period, a long period, maybe years, of learning to walk humbly in obedience with God. You put one foot in front of the other, one step at a time, one day at a time, year after year beginning now. Is it worth it? One day in October of 1955, Nate Saint flew into our station to tell us that he had discovered some Auca houses. Within a very short time, Ed McCully, that politician from Wisconsin; Jim Elliott from Oregon; and Nate Saint instituted a program of dropping gifts to those Indians with the hope that they would be able to break down their hostility and prepare the way for an attempt to reach them. You can imagine our excitement, our trembling; the prayers that went up. And on the evening in January of 1956, just before these men left to go into the edge of Auca territory – by this time they had been joined by Roger Youderian and Pete Fleming – they sang together that hymn "We Rest on Thee, Our Shield and our Defender." A week later they were all speared to death. Man: The Waodani are killing so many people, the government is under pressure. They're going to bring in troops. We have one chance to reach these people now – this is it. Man: When a life is taken, we call it a tragedy. Child: Will the Waodani attack? Will you use your guns? Man: My life is freely given, a sacrifice. Elisabeth: Why? Two of the men who killed them are friends of mine now. Their names are Mincaye and Kekita [ph], and they made tapes for me telling me everything about what had happened that afternoon on the beach, and they said they thought the men were cannibals. Man: Ninkiwi [ph] and the young woman that was there at the friendly contact, and Ninkiwi wanted to marry her. Nampa [ph] really didn't want that to happen. When they found them coming back from the friendly encounter, the tribe flew into a rage. They wanted to kill Ninkiwi, Nampa certainly did. The Akita [ph] saw this, the Ninkayani [ph] saw this, Jewi [ph] saw this, and they redirected the anger, which is something about their culture. You get angry, you're out of control. The way you affirm control is to kill. So they redirected their anger toward the missionaries, and that was ultimately why they attacked and killed the five men. Elisabeth: Why would God allow a thing like that to happen? He was their shield, their defender, and He let them get speared to death. What had happened? Can your faith cope with a set of facts like this? There is a mystery here, but it is not unprecedented. Go back to Hebrews 11 – and following all those wonderful triumphant accounts, we read, "And others were tortured." They faced jeers and flogging, fetters and prison bars, they were stoned, they were – listen to this – sawn in two. Talk about endurance. Is it worth it? Is it worth it? How many things can you think of that are worth suffering for? There is nothing worth living for unless it's worth dying for. Have you made up your mind? The world is stunned when the news of the death of the five men hit the headlines. People did not know that there were still stone-age savages around. I suppose that's one of the reasons they were impressed. And then people realized that there could still be ordinary young men for whom obedience to Jesus Christ was quite literally a matter of life or death. There was plenty of editorializing about it. The secular press called the blankety-blank fools. The Christian press did a lot of very glib explaining of why God would allow a thing like this to happen. The verse that brought assurance to me was 1 John 2:17 – "The world in all its passionate desires will one day disappear, but the man who is following the will of God is part of the permanent and cannot die." Bob: As Elisabeth was retelling the story of the death of those missionaries, we included some of the sound track that comes from the movie, "End of the Spear," that's being released – I think it's two weeks from Friday the movie is going to be released, and that movie portrays the events of 1956 and actually takes you back before 1956 to tell about the Waodani tribe and then brings it up to date. It brings you to the point where Steve Saint, one of the children of those martyred missionaries goes back and makes contact with the tribe and finds out how the spearing took place, why it took place, and actually finds out who it was that killed his father, and that man becomes his friend. That man is now a Christian. It's a powerful story. Dennis: Steve Saint ended up going back to live among that tribe as well. Frankly, Bob, you and I have interviewed a lot of folks where you just kind of feel like, you know, I felt unworthy. I've given my life to following Christ in 35 years of vocational ministry, but you meet somebody like that, who left the comfort of living on the East Coast and taking his family and going back into the jungles of Ecuador and living with the tribe and, as you said, befriending the man who ended up murdering his father is just a remarkable story of faith. One of the things we've done is we've put together, from a number of sources, some of the descriptions about Jim Elliott by his wife, Elisabeth, and his faith, and we thought you'd enjoy hearing this montage of audio clips, as Elisabeth Elliott describes the man who gave his life for Christ. Bob: And our intent here is not to single out one of the five missionaries, but because of her writing and speaking, we probably know more about Jim than we do the other four. But, again, all five of them are heroic and courageous. Elisabeth: I want to tell you a little bit about that missionary, Jim Elliott. I knew him when he was a college student. He had made up his mind that he wanted two degrees – a bachelor of arts, which the college was qualified to confer; and an AUG, which the college was not qualified to confer. The one he wanted most was AUG, "Approved Unto God." He got that out of the Apostle Paul's letter to Timothy, and he had made up his mind what he wanted to live for. Jesus, for the joy that was set before Him, endured a cross. Making light of its disgrace and has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of God. He made Himself nothing. Jim Elliott wrote in his diary when he was 22 – "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." Were those men really out of their tree to do what they did? In Hebrews 12 it says, "What of ourselves? With all these witnesses surrounding us like a cloud, we must throw off every encumbrance, every sin to which we cling, and run with resolution the race for which we are entered, our eyes fixed on Jesus on whom faith depends from start to finish. Jim Elliott was a man with tremendous gifts; a man who could undoubtedly have been a great success in probably quite a few different professions; a man whose friends and relatives thought he was crazy to go burying himself in some God-forsaken corner of the jungle just to talk to a few ignorant Indians when he had such a powerful testimony and a great "ministry" in this country among young people. But Jim's life was not his own. The verse that he wrote in my yearbook was 2 Timothy 2:4 – "A soldier on active service does not entangle himself in civilian affairs. He must be wholly at his commanding officer's disposal." Him was disposable. And here is the crux of the matter – and, by the way, did you know that the word "crux" means cross? Did you know that the word "crucial" comes from the same root? Until the world and the affections are brought under the authority of Christ, we have not begun to understand, let alone to accept His Lordship. God is saying, "I have something infinitely better for you than you can imagine. Will you trust me? Will you wait? Will you obey me?" Lord, I give up all my own plans and purposes, all my own desires and hopes and accept Thy will for my life. I give myself, my life, my all, utterly to Thee to be Thine forever. Fill me with Thy Holy Spirit, use me as Thou wilt, send me where Thou wilt, work out Thy whole will in my life at any cost now and forever." What do you live for? Bob: Once again, that's Elisabeth Elliott reflecting on her husband, Jim, who, along with four other men, was martyred in 1956, 50 years ago this week, and we felt like it was important for listeners to hear that story again, maybe some for the first time. There are probably some folks who have been unaware of this story and will want to get either a copy of Elisabeth's book, the one that you read when you were in college, "Through Gates of Splendor," or the DVD of the documentary that is called "Beyond the Gates of Splendor." We have both the book and the DVD in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and the easiest way for listeners to become acquainted with all that took place in those events is to get the book and get the DVD. You can go to our website, FamilyLife.com, click where it says "Today's Broadcast," right in the center of your screen, and that should take you to a page where you can get more information about these resources. And if you order both the book and the DVD, we'll send you at no additional charge, the CD audio that features the excerpts we've been listening to this week from Elisabeth Elliott. Again, our website is FamilyLife.com, click the button in the middle of the screen that says "Today's Resources," and go there to find out more about the documentary, "Beyond the Gates of Splendor," about the book, "Through Gates of Splendor," and there is a link on our website as well that will give you more information about the movie that's coming out in a couple of weeks called "End of the Spear." You can watch a trailer for that movie, get more information about the release of it. I think it is January 20th that it's going to be in theaters, and we hope families will attend that movie, "End of the Spear." 1-800-FLTODAY or, again, the website is FamilyLife.com. And, once again, Dennis, I want to say thank you, I know you do as well, to those folks who pitched in at year-end and made a contribution to us here at FamilyLife. We heard from many of our listeners, and I know our team is still going through and trying to open up some of the mail that we received so that we can issue a formal thank-you note to those of you who contributed at year-end to FamilyLife Today. We really do appreciate your generosity, and I think it is safe to say at this point that we were successfully able to meet the match and take full advantage of the $350,000 match that we had in December – so thanks to all of you who pitched in. We appreciate you standing with us and appreciate your ongoing support of this ministry. Thanks for helping keep us on the air here in this city and in cities all across the country. Tomorrow we have a special guest joining us. He is the son of one of the men who was martyred as a missionary 50 years ago this week. Steve Saint is going to be with us along with the man who helped make the movie that tells the story of Steve's dad's martyrdom, the movie, "End of the Spear," Mart Green, is going to be here as well. And we have a surprise guest who is going to be here with them, and we hope you can be back with us. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. ______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Growing Up With WoodenDay 1 of 3 Guest: John Wooden From the series: True Success: A Personal Visit with John Wooden Bob: It was the 1920s in rural Indiana. The Depression had not yet rocked America. John Wooden was a young boy growing up on a farm, a high school student who loved basketball but who was about to meet the real love of his life. John: I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know, but she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that. Somehow, on the first day of classes my freshman year, we happened to be in the same class, and I knew right then, and we knew we were going to be married by the time I got out of high school, and August 8th it would have been 70 years since last August 8th, we would have been married. Bob: Today you'll hear the first part of a conversation with a man who grew up to be one of the greatest coaches of all time as we talk about his faith, his family, and basketball. Stay tuned as we talk with Coach John Wooden on FamilyLife Today. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. I can't help but smile as I listen to that excerpt from our interview with Coach John Wooden. Of course, a lot of people are smiling right about now because this is the time of the year when March madness really takes over. There is a lot of basketball ahead for us. Dennis: Semis are this weekend, Final Four on Monday. Bob: It's got to bring back lots of memories for you from your college days, doesn't it? Dennis: Well, high school. You know, going back to high school, Bob, those were my glory days. My college days, I had several splinters. Bob: Sitting on the bench, huh? Dennis: I got the 15th uniform out of 15 in college. I learned what it was like to be a substitute. Bob: But your team almost went to the Final Four, didn't it? Dennis: Well, not THE Final Four. We almost went to the Junior College National Championships in Kansas, and I'm trying to remember where in Kansas. Bob: But that's like the Final Four for Junior Colleges, right? Dennis: Oh, yeah, absolutely. In fact, I started that game – the last game of my college career, I started. Bob: You poured in what – 15, 20 points? Dennis: Now, wait a second – hold it, just one second, because they put me on an All American. This is a true story. The coach had watched me. It was the only game I started in my college career, but my coach was so impressed with me never quitting and just staying out there and being tenacious – he started me. And he put me on the quickest guy I've ever played against. Bob: Man-to-man defense. Dennis: Man-to-man defense, and did you know, when I left the game in the first half – I played about six or seven minutes – I had scored more points … Bob: … than the All American, and the reason was this: He was so fast and I was so slow, he would fake three or four times, and by the time I had taken his first fake, I was back to where he was really going. And so I would post up underneath the bucket, and the guy didn't like to play defense, and I'd post up on him and score. And so when I left the game, I had actually scored more points than him. Bob: Now, some of our listeners are wondering what are you talking about Dennis' glory days of basketball on FamilyLife Today? Dennis: Because we really don't have anything else to talk about. No, that's not true. We have a guest today – well, Bob, a dream of mine, and I sent you a note one day. I said, "Bob, you know, one of the people I would really like in all the world to interview for FamilyLife Today and for our listeners and give them a glimpse of what a great human being he is, what many have described as the greatest coach of any sport of all time – Coach John Wooden." Now, there are a number of our listeners who have no idea who John Wooden is, but a ton do. Bob: Coach Wooden coached the UCLA Bruins back in the '60s and the '70s. Dennis: Well, actually, he started coaching in 1948. That's what most people don't realize is. He didn't build that national championship dominant team in the '60s and '70s. He built it in obscurity beginning in 1948 throughout all the '50s and early '60s before he won his first national championship in 1964. Bob: And after he won his first one, then he won his second and his third and his fourth and his fifth and his sixth. Over a 12-year period he won 10 national championships. Dennis: That's right, including winning 88 games in a row before they were knocked off at the Houston Astrodome, and I remember watching this game as a young man, where Lew Alcindor was playing against Elvin Hayes, and Houston beat them 71-69, and the Astrodome had, like, 49,000 people in it. It was nationally televised. It was an event, and there are few coaches that could claim the accomplishments that – in any sport – what he has accomplished. But in basketball, he is the ultimate. Bob: Well, we're going to hear a little bit about that game and about a lot of other games as we talk with Coach Wooden over the next few days. A while back, you and I sat down with him in a studio in Los Angeles and just had a great opportunity to find out about the man who grew up to be "The Coach." Here is part 1 of our conversation with Coach John Wooden: Dennis: Tell us about life in the Wooden household when you were growing up as a young lad. John: We had a small farm, and I learned a lot, I think, of things that helped me later on. You had to work hard. Dad felt there was time for play but always after the chores and the studies were done. Dad would read to us every night from the Scriptures and poetry, and I think that created a love of poetry, which I've always had, liked to dabble in it a little bit. My dad was a wonderful person. I never heard him speak an ill word of anybody; never blamed anybody for anything; I never heard him use a word of profanity. I think that his reading to us of a night later caused all four sons to get through college, though he had no financial means to help and there were no athletic scholarships. All four sons graduated from college and all majored or minored in English, and all got advanced degrees, and I think Dad had a lot to do with that. Dennis: Your dad had, as you've already mentioned, a profound impact on your life. In fact, I was so looking forward to this interview with you, because I've quoted you about something that you said you carried around in your pocket. Or – it, first of all, was carried around in your father's pocket, is that right? And then you started carrying it around – it was your dad's creed – and then a poem by a pastor by the name of Henry Van Dyke. John: My father gave to me, when I graduated from high school – excuse me – from grade school, from the eighth grade, he gave me a $2 bill – one of those large $2 bills and said, "Son, as long as you keep this you'll never be broke." Then he also gave me a card, and on one side was the verse by Reverend Van Dyke that said, "Four things a man must learn to do if he would make his life more true; to think without confusion clearly; to love his fellow man sincerely; to act from honest motives purely; to trust in God and heaven securely." And on the other side was a seven-point creed, and the seven-point creed insisted, first of all, I think it was, "Be true to yourself," and I think we know if we're true to ourselves, we'll be true to others; and the second was "Help others." There is no greater joy than a person can have than do something for someone else, especially when you do it with no thought of something in return. Another one was "Make friendship a fine art." Work at it, don't take it for granted, work at making friends and making friendships flourish. And then was one, I think, stood out to me a great deal was, "Make me today your masterpiece," and I tried to teach from that, as time went by, to my players and my English students, to just try and do the best you can each day. Just make each day a masterpiece. It's the only thing over which you have control. You have no control over yesterday. That will never change. The only way you can affect tomorrow is today. And then another one was to "Drink deeply from good books, especially the Bible;" and then was "Build a shelter against a rainy day," and he wasn't thinking about a physical shelter, he was thinking about a more lasting shelter. When I think about that, I often think of when Socrates was unjustly imprisoned and was facing imminent death and the jailers who were mean people, they couldn't understand his serenity, and they said, "Why aren't you preparing for death?" And his statement was, "I've been preparing for death all my life by the life I've led," and when I think of building a shelter against a rainy day, I think that's what Dad had in mind. Then the last was – the seventh was "Give thanks for your blessings and pray for guidance every day," and I've carried that with me in one form or another since those days, yes. Bob: Those core convictions are so bedrock with you, that's a part of how your mom and dad raised you. I think some people – we hear those things in the 21st century and some people go, "That sounds kind of old-fashioned, kind of corny," but that's so ingrained into who you are and who you've been, and you would say that's been a part of what has made you successful as a coach, right? John: Well, I would hope so, but I know, too, if someone said, "I'm not what I ought to be and not what I want to be and not what I'm going to be, but I think those things have made me better than I would have been. Dennis: Your dad read the Bible every day. John: Yes, he did. Dennis: How did you see him live out his faith in Christ every day, as a father? What are the most indelible memories that you have, as a boy, watching your dad? Because, undoubtedly, for him to have the influence he had on you as a man, his character has to resonate even today in your life. John: Perhaps I wasn't realizing it at the time, but as I look back on my dad and the fact that he never spoke an ill word of anyone and just was a good person. You don't realize it so much of the time, and many of the things – one of the things he said was never try to be better than someone else. You have no control over that, and if you get too involved and engrossed and concerned – maybe these weren't his exact words, but things over which you have no control will adversely affect the things over which you have control. Now, years later, I remember that. So somewhere in the hidden recesses of the mind, they stuck there, but it was things like that. Mr. Lincoln said there is nothing stronger than gentleness, and my father was gentle man – working with animals and things. I remember reading to us nights over the Scriptures, and I can still close my eyes and hear him reading "Hiawatha." I can still hear "By the shores of Gitchigoomie, by the Shining Big Sea Water, Stood the wigwam of Nokomis," and so on, and things of that sort. Bob: You didn't have any TV, any radio, so in the evening reading was the primary form of entertainment, wasn't it? John: You're correct – by a coal oil lamp or candles. Bob: Was your dad – as you think back on his life, you've talked about this tender side of him, and yet he was still whipping you when you did the wrong thing. Was he a strict disciplinarian? John: Well, I would say yes but not in a physical point of way. I know – oh, I didn't want to get an unkind word from my dad, you know, a strong word. I don't know, you just hated to hurt him in any way. You just had that feeling about him. Dennis: As you followed your dad, you undoubtedly watched how he'd love your mother. Tell us about what you observed there and his commitment to her, as a woman and to his wife, over their years together. John: Well, I think Dad's first concern was always for Mother. He was looking out for her the best he could in every way but in a gentle way, in a gentle way. I can picture them together – not at all the romantic way that you might think, but there was just something between them that was very, very special. I don't know how to describe it. Dennis: You said of yourself in your book, "They Call Me Coach," that as you moved into your high school years, you were shy, you were reserved, especially with the opposite sex. John: Yes, I suppose, not being exposed much – no sisters – and I'm on the farm, and I suppose that's the reason, I don't know, but I was a little shy. Bob: But here you were, this star basketball player on the high school team. I mean, the girls, the cheerleaders, had to notice Johnny Wooden, didn't they? Did they call you Johnny back then or was it John? John: They called me lots of things. (laughter) You'd be surprised, the more they think it was John Bob. Bob: John Bob. Dennis: John Bob. John: And Nellie and I had been married for many years when her sister came out here to California one time, and she said, "Don't you think you and John have been married long enough that you should quit calling him John Bob?" Bob: But didn't the girls start to notice you as you were draining those jump shots on the basketball teams? Dennis: Yeah, he kind of skirted your answer there. I was watching him about that. John: Well, I'll tell you, my freshman year, I was still living on the farm. We didn't lose the farm until after my freshman year, and then we commuted from this little town of Center, and we lived about a half a mile out of that to Martinsville, and I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know that she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that, and that summer she brought the brother of her closest friend, who became very dear to me, to drive up. Her brother had a car, and they drove up, and I was working in the field plowing corn with a team, and they parked in the road and motioned for me to come over, and I wouldn't go over. I just kept on. Bob: Why wouldn't you go over? Here's this cute girl on the side of the road … Dennis: … and you even liked her, too. John: Oh, yeah, but I was dirty and somehow on the first day of classes, we happened to be in the same class. She said, "Why didn't you come over to see us?" I said, "Well, I was dirty and perspiring, and you would have just made fun of me." And Nellie said – I can still see her, she said, "I would never make fun of you," and I knew right then … Dennis: … there was a spark in her eyes. John: And this is the only girl I ever really went with. Bob: So by your junior year in high school, did you think, "This is the girl I'll marry?" John: I did. Bob: And you all started going together? John: We did. Bob: So you waited to marry until you got to college? John: Yes, until I graduated. I was glad to be married and graduated and got my first job, yes. Bob: Coach, that's a long courtship – from your junior year in high school until you've graduated from college and got your first job. That must have been hard. Dennis: But, Bob, the rest of the story is, if Nellie hadn't put her foot down … Bob: … he might still be dragging it on today? Dennis: Well, there is the rest of the story here, because he really had promised her that he was going to marry her upon graduation, but then the war came along. John: Yes. Well, I had an appointment to West Point, and she said it would be six more years, and "I'm not going to wait. I'm going to a convent." So I didn't go to West Point. Bob: She said she wouldn't wait on you? John: That's right. Dennis: And so what did you do? John: Well, I finished at Purdue. Dennis: So you were married then? John: We were married on August 8th. It would have been 70 years just last August 8th that we would have been married. We were married on August 8, 1932. Dennis: You were, in those days, All American three years in a row, you were named the College Player of the Year your senior year, and as I was doing this research, I was thinking – I was talking to Bob. I said, "I don't remember Coach Wooden being that tall, to be College Player of the Year. He must have been 6'3" or 6'4". On the sidelines you looked a little small around those big guys at UCLA. But you were only 5'10" in those days. John: But, you know, the teams weren't as big then, either, as they are now, too. Our center at Purdue, Stretch Murphy, was 6'8", and he was a giant. I only had the pleasure of playing with him one year. I had the displeasure of playing against him one year when I was a sophomore in high school for the Indiana State Championship, he was the center on the opposing team, and he was good. Bob: Did you just have what it takes as an athlete? Were you just a naturally gifted – something about the way God made you that you turned out to be a good basketball player? Or did you work really hard to be a good ball player? John: Well, I hope I did the latter, but He provided the former. I had natural quickness, and I couldn't do much about my height, but I could do something about my condition, and I always wanted to be in the best possible condition and hoped that would be better than others, hoped others wouldn't work as hard at it as I did do that, and I think I carried that throughout, and I think that helped. And I think it probably come from my earlier grade school days on the farm of working hard, and I like to feel that no one is going to be in better condition, then I have no control over it. I should have control over myself. Bob: Well, we've been listening to a conversation with Coach John Wooden – actually, part 1 of a conversation that we're going to hear the remainder of over the next couple of days. Dennis: What a sweet time, huh? Bob: It was a great time. Dennis: Bob, you and I just had a great time. I'd look over at you occasionally, and you'd be sitting there grinning, and I'd be grinning, and the reason is, is when we interviewed Coach, he was 91 years old. He's now at his 92nd birthday, and I'm told that he knows where 180 of his players are – his past players. He's kept in touch with them. I heard about a coach the other day whose players never go back to visit him – none of them. It's common knowledge that his players don't want to have anything to do with him, and I think about Coach Wooden and the wisdom that he passed on, and it reminds me, really, of Proverbs, chapter 4, where a father is imploring and exhorting a son to "Listen, my son, and acquire wisdom." And I'll tell you, just hanging with the Coach for the interview we did over an hour and a half, we're not going to be able to air all of it here on the broadcast over the next couple of days, but just hanging with him, you thought, "What would it have been like to have played for a coach like that?" And then it hit me, you know, that's what our children need to be expressing about us as parents. You know, we learned, we sat under the greatest mom, the greatest dad, the greatest coach, the greatest teacher the world has ever known. Yeah, they're going to be biased, but the idea is that we, as parents, we're impacting the next generation just like Coach Wooden did. Bob: That's right. You mentioned the entire interview going more than an hour and a half long. We've actually taken the complete interview and put it on two CDs, and I got some early copies of these CDs, and I'll tell you what I found – you can pass these out to lots of folks. You can pass them out to the high school coach at the high school where your kids go. Dennis: Oh, let me tell you something, I've been doing this, and I've had friends doing this – any coach of any sport – Laura's volleyball coach – I gave her a copy of this, and she grabbed hold of it like it was gold, and the reason is it is gold. Bob: It's thoughts on life from a great coach but it's also thoughts on faith and character and what really matters. You can use this as a way to begin a dialog and to open doors evangelistically with fans of the game, with coaches, with players, with friends. We have the two-CD set that features the entire – I think it's about an hour-and-45-minute-long conversation with Coach John Wooden. It's available in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request as many copies as you want. Dennis: It even looks like a basketball on one side and a net on the other. Bob: 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. You can also order online at FamilyLife.com. Ask for the two-CD set of our conversation with Coach John Wooden when you contact us, and there's a second resource we want to mention to you as well – Coach Wooden has put together a course that is designed to teach his principles of success in business, in athletics, in school. We have a videocassette where Coach lays out the Pyramid of Success that he put together, and we have the Pyramid on our website at FamilyLife.com, but we also have it on a mousepad that you can have by your computer just to review the character qualities that go into success in any endeavor. Along with the video and the mousepad, we've got a wallet card. Dennis: Not just any wallet card. Bob: No, it's a laminated … Dennis: … a laminated … Bob: … that's right, and it has some of the Coach's philosophy on it – never lie, never cheat, never steal, don't whine, don't complain, don't make excuses – pretty simple stuff but profound nonetheless. Ask for these resources when you call 1-800-FLTODAY. Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY or go online at FamilyLife.com, and you can see some of the resources there, and you can order online as well. Again, our website is FamilyLife.com. When you do get in touch with us, someone is likely to ask if you'd like to help with a donation to FamilyLife Today, and we hope when they ask, if you are able, you'll say yes and be able to add a donation to the work of this ministry. We're a nonprofit organization, and we depend on those contributions to keep doing what we're doing. So if you can't help with a donation, you can donate online at FamilyLife.com. You can call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can write a check and mail it to us at FamilyLife Today, Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas. The zip code is 72221. Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72221. Well, tomorrow we're going to find out how the UCLA dynasty almost never happened and how it might have been the Minnesota dynasty if it hadn't been for a snowstorm. Dennis: Yeah, this is a great story about lost opportunity. Bob: We'll hear that tomorrow as we continue our conversation with Coach John Wooden. I hope you can be with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal [sp], and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Coaching PressureDay 2 of 3 Guest: John Wooden From the series: True Success: A Personal Visit with John Wooden Bob: A basketball tournament is a test. It's a test of a team's skill and a coach's savvy. But long before the players ever show up on the court, it can be a test of an individual's character as well. At least it was for Coach John Wooden in 1948. John: I had one black player on my team, and they wouldn't let them play in the tournament, and I wouldn't go without him, because he was a part of the team, and finally they reluctantly said that he could come, but he couldn't stay in the hotel where the teams were staying. He could have his meals there, providing we would take them in a private room. So I refused the invitation and wouldn't go. Bob: John Wooden, who would go on to be come one of the greatest coaches in basketball history, but he was a coach who was known as much for his character as for his basketball prowess. Stay with us for a conversation with the Coach, John Wooden on FamilyLife Today. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition. You know, this would make one of those great trivia questions that pop up on those sports talk shows from time to time – who was the Indiana Rubber Man? Dennis: Mm-hm. Bob: Now, you know and I know, because we had a chance to talk to the Indiana Rubber Man, but I wonder how many of our listeners know that a man who is considered today to have perhaps been the greatest coach of all time in any sport, Coach John Wooden of the UCLA Bruins, was once one of the great players in basketball – both in college basketball and then in semi-pro basketball. Dennis: That's right. He is one of two that are in the Basketball Hall of Fame, both as a player and a coach. The other is Lenny Wilkinson, I believe, and, of course, we talked yesterday about Coach Wooden and a little trip Bob and I made out to Southern California to interview him. He slipped into the studio with Bob and me, and you need to hang with us today and tomorrow, because at the end of tomorrow's broadcast, I'm going to tell you a cute story about Coach Wooden autographing a book for me. Because I did play ball, as Bob mentioned yesterday, in college. My average was just about the same as Coach Wooden's, in fact – no, it really wasn't. Bob: A little less than average is what's your average. Dennis: Yeah, I was less than average, no doubt about it, but he was an All American, as you said, Bob, but he was more than that. He was a man of, I believe, a simple faith in Jesus Christ and in God and who lived out his commitments to his players, to his family, and to his wife, Nellie, and you're going to hear some touching moments about how this man fulfilled his marriage covenant with his wife. Bob: Coach Wooden has been known throughout the years as a man of great integrity, great character, and a great molder of men, and if you ask him what he did, he says, "I was just a teacher. I've taught boys how to play basketball." Dennis: Yeah, in fact, he almost went into teaching, which is interesting. Bob: We'll hear about that today. This is taken from a conversation – an extended conversation – that we had with Coach John Wooden not long ago. Here is Dennis with Coach Wooden. Dennis: A story that you tell that I want you to share with our listeners came at the conclusion of your first year at Indiana State University, where you won the conference title, and you received an invitation to play in the NAIA Tournament, but you turned them down. Why? John: We had a pretty good year, the first year, and the NAIA Tournaments played in Kansas City – 32 teams then – and I had one black player on my team, and they wouldn't let them play in the tournament. So even though this was – of the 12 men on the team, he played the least of all, he didn't get to play very much, and I wouldn't go without him, because he was a part of the team. So I refused the invitation and wouldn't go. Now, the next year I had everybody back on this team, exactly the same team, no one came in and beat anybody else out, and so the next year we had a good year, and were invited again, and I refused again, and finally they reluctantly said that he could come, but he couldn't stay in the hotel where the teams were staying. He'd have to stay someplace else. He could have his meals there, providing we would take them in a private room. I said no, I wouldn't do that, but I was persuaded by the NCAA and his parents that we should go; it might help. So we went, and he stayed with a minister and his wife and came into the hotel from the game. He didn't get to play very much at all, but that was the first black player that had ever played in that tournament, and I think a few years later an all-black team won. So we sort of opened the door a little bit. Bob: You undoubtedly had some players – when you came back and told the team we've been invited to the tournament but we're not going to go because they won't accept this one player – there had to be some guys going, "Coach, I want to go to Kansas City, I want to play on the team. Let's just go along with their rules." Didn't anybody raise their hand in protest? John: I don't think anyone protested. Some would have liked to have gone, yes, but they didn't. I knew these men, and most of them I'd had in high school before, and they knew how I felt about things, and there was no problem. They caused me no problem there. Dennis: As your career was taking off, you were also in the process of beginning your family. You had a daughter and a son, and what I wonder is, I wonder how did you juggle the tension of your marriage, your family, your faith, and a demanding profession? What value in your core, as a man, was your measurement? How did you juggle it all? John: I wish Nellie were here to answer that question for you. Well, Nan, of course, was born in Dayton, Kentucky, when I was down there, and then Jim was born in South Bend two years later, but I tried, definitely tried – Nellie always went to games with me, and I wouldn't leave her to go scout or anything of that sort, unless she couldn't go, not bring basketball home. I tried not to do that. Now, can you do that 100 percent – probably not. But I tried not, and Nellie, when she was interviewed at times, I'd heard her say that, "John never brought the games home. I could never tell after a practice" – she was practically at all the games – "but never after a practice, I could not tell by his demeanor whether he had a good practice or a bad practice or had problems at all." And maybe she stretched the truth a little bit there, but I certainly tried not to. I wanted – next to faith – I wanted family first. Bob: We had the opportunity once to interview Coach McCartney from Colorado – a football coach who started Promise Keepers, and his wife told us that at the beginning of the football season all of the coaches and their wives would get together for a party that they said was the "Football's Here, Goodbye, Dear," party. Because they said that from the middle of the summer until the end of whatever ball game you were going to, you rarely saw your husband. Is the demand of coaching higher today than it was when you were coaching or did you just order your world differently than other coaches did? John: I don't think demand is any higher, it's just what you make out of it. You have to be disciplined on what you're doing. You have to establish your own priorities and then stick to them. I don't think it's any different, and as far as pressure being on you, the only pressure that amounts to a hill of beans is the pressure you put on yourself. If you permit outside pressure, alumni pressure, or parental pressure from the outside, if you permit those to influence you, then you're weak. You better get on with something else, but you'd probably find the same thing someplace else, too. It's like my players – when I'd recruit the player, I'd say, "Now, if you come here, you're going to be unhappy for a while. You're going to be unhappy. You're going to be away from home for the first time, you're not going to be the big shot that you were in high school, but you're not going to like it here for a while. But if you go someplace, it would be the same thing. You wouldn't like it there, so it might as well be here." I sort of felt that way about it, and I think that pressure is – when the coaches talk to me about pressures, I say, "Get out, get out, get out." The pressure amounts to a hill of beans of what you put on yourself. You've got to put pressure on yourself, do a good job, do the best you can, study, work as you can, but don't let that be all-encompassing. There are other things more important. Dennis: How did Nellie keep your family on the track and help John Wooden as a man keep his priorities? I mean, you undoubtedly had your moments when you would work too hard, too long, and be a little too consumed with it all. How did she come alongside you – how was she a good helpmate and counterpart to the Coach? John: Well, she was just a good mother and a good wife, and we had a little disagreement, I remember, one time many, many, many, many years ago, many years before I lost her, we had a little disagreement, and I left the house to go to work without [inaudible], and I should have but when I went to bed that night there was a little note on my pillow with a card, it's still there, it says, "Don't try to understand me, just love me." And that's it. I think we had a great relationship more than anything else, and I've said that when we – we talked about this, and, gracious, we're going to disagree on a lot of things, but let's try not to be disagreeable. Dennis: You had a little tradition that you and Nellie enjoyed right before the game started. Now, Bob, I remember watching Coach Wooden on TV when college basketball games started being televised, but there was something I missed as an observer, a little tradition that he had with Nellie before the game started. John: Back when I was playing in high school, she played in the band, and I'd try to position myself where I could look up and see her in the band, and she's always give me a – and I'd give her a wink or a nod, and that continued, you know, in my teaching days. Before every game, I'd find her and I'd give her a wink or a nod, and so that's probably what you're thinking of. Superstition? No, it wasn't superstition, it just made me feel good. Dennis: Just a little wink. John: That's right, that's right. Bob: You wound up as the coach of UCLA because of a snowstorm. John: Correct. Bob: Tell us how you got that job. John: I was considering both UCLA and the University of Minnesota. That had both offered me the jobs, and I wanted to stay in the Midwest in the Big 10. UCLA was going to call an hour after Minnesota was going to call. Minnesota didn't call, and UCLA called, and I accepted. About an hour later I got a call from Minnesota saying everything was all worked out, and I said, "I'm sorry, I've committed myself. I can't back out now." And there was what they called an "unseasonable" snowstorm that had the lines down, and they couldn't get to a phone to call me at the time, they said. So that's how close it came. Bob: Why didn't you just hang on until they got on – why did you take the job at UCLA if you wanted to be in Minnesota? Did you think they were going to not call? They'd decided to go with somebody else? John: I suppose I thought that. I don't remember exactly now. All I know is they didn't call in time, and I'm a stickler for time. My players will tell you one of the rules that I had throughout is be on time to your classes, to practice, to the bus – be on time – and if you're not, some action will be taken. As the years went by, I learned not to tell them what the action would be. Bob: It didn't matter whether there was a snowstorm or not, they needed to be on time. Dennis: I want to know, Coach, why you chose coaching. I mean, you said you loved to teach English, you were a teacher at heart, you could have done a lot of things. Why did you do it? John: I went to Purdue to become a civil engineer – that's what I wanted to do, but I didn't know – high school counseling, obviously, wasn't as good in those days, and I didn't know that to get your degree in civil engineering you had to go to civil camp every summer. Well, I knew I couldn't go to civil camp every summer. I had to work in the summers, so I couldn't do that. So I changed to a Liberal Arts course and majored in English, and I knew, from that time on, I'm going to teach. I enjoyed teaching, as time went by. I enjoyed it. I taught English in high school, and I wanted to be a good English teacher, and I enjoyed it, and once I got into it, I had opportunities to get out in other areas where, financially, it would have been better, but I enjoyed teaching. Who was it said that you find a job that you enjoy, you'll never work a day in your life. Dennis: And you view coaching as teaching? John: Of course, it is. That's all it is. You're teaching sports. You've heard some of my players, particularly some of the talkative ones like Bill Walton, will often say in his interviews that coach was teacher. Dennis: Coach, as you taught, you believed in teaching about the fundamentals. John: Oh, absolutely. Dennis: In fact, in coming into this studio, the one thing I regret that I didn't bring in here – I brought you a banana, because I know you like a banana, but I should have brought a pair of socks – athletic socks – into the studio, because you took high school stars – you began with a very simple point of instruction. John: That's correct. I taught them how to put on their socks and their shoes. I wanted no wrinkles in the socks, and I'd show them how to put it on and smooth around the little toe. Your blisters usually come from around the little toe or the heel area, and I wanted to show them how to do that, because I know if you don't, they just pull them up. To me, I think, it was just as important thing – a little detail, but little details is what make big things happen. Bob: You had some players who obviously became players of note not only in college but on into the NBA. Some of them seem to be outside of the Wooden paradigm, if I can call it that. You know, Bill Walton does not strike me as the prototypical John Wooden basketball player. It almost seems like here's a guy who can play the game, but here is a disciplined coach and a player who – well – discipline was not high on his list of virtues, was it? John: In certain areas, you might say that, but Bill is very dear to me. For many, many years he calls me three or four times a week from all over, but at the time he played for me, it was a time of the anti-establishment, and he was anti-establishment very much at that particular time. I was concerned about money and things, but I have no right to determine the politics of my players. Now, actually, the religion – that's them. But he's a good student, he's an honor student, he's in the academic hall of fame. When he came on the basketball floor, you couldn't ask – no one could ask – for a player to be more cooperative, set a great example. No one worked harder – never a problem in any way. But he had his little quirks, as we all have, and … Bob: … what about his facial hair, though? He did show up one time … John: … well, he decided I didn't have the right to tell him how to wear his hair, and I said, "You're absolutely right, Bill, I don't have. All I have the right is to determine who plays, and we're going to miss you." Bob: You said, "If you want to keep the beard, you're off the team?" John: That's right. Dennis: This is an All American you're talking to. John: That's right. Dennis: But you drew a line in the sand over the facial hair. John: I did, I did. Dennis: And what did Bill do? John: Then he hurried and got fixed up then. Bob: He shaved his beard off, didn't he? John: And he's been asked, "Do you think Coach would have gone through with it?" And he said, "Well, you know what I did." If I have a rule, I'm going to stand by it. But always remember there can be a gray area at times. There was a time in my teaching that I had no gray area – it was either black or white with me. But there can be a gray area, and I made two mistakes – I made many, but I know two that I recall that I regret very much because I didn't see the gray area. Bob: What are those two? John: Well, I had a rule in high school that smoking was automatic dismissal from the squad for the year, and my finest player, my only center I'd had, I caught him smoking, and I dismissed him. I had the rule, and I … Dennis: … and you think it's a mistake now, looking back? John: Well, he quit school, he never finished school. He would have gone on to college. I think I was wrong. I should have handled it in a different way. Bob: What was the second thing, you said, that you regretted? John: I had a player that didn't qualify for his letter. This was in high school, but he was a fine person that worked very, very hard, and – but, anyway, his dad came in one day and called me and wondered if I'd come out and talk to him. I did, and he said, "Is Joe going to get a letter?" I said – no tact – I said, "Well, I haven't really decided yet." And he said, "I'll tell you this" – remember, I'm just a young man – and he said, "I'll tell you, if he doesn't, I'm going to have your job." Dennis: He threatened you. John: Yes, he did, and I didn't like that, and I ended up by not giving the boy his letter, and I feel, down deep in my heart, that I would have given him the letter if the dad – for the youngster because of the dad, and that's wrong. Bob: That's Coach John Wooden from the UCLA Bruins, although, at the time he made that decision that he regretted, he wasn't coaching on a national platform, he was just coaching high school boys back in Indiana. It's interesting just to listen back to that story and hear it resonate with a coach who cared more about doing the right thing than almost anything else. Dennis: And, you know, Bob, he was reliving that story before us, and he's 91 years old. That story occurred 60 years ago, but he really had a deep, profound regret that you could see on his face, as a man, that he had not done what he thought was the right thing, and I think there is a tremendous lesson for us to live lives with no regrets – to do the right thing today, to obey Jesus Christ, His Word, and the commitments to responsibilities we have. And one of the things He's commanded us to do that I think you can use Coach Wooden to accomplish is Christ has given us the Great Commission, and we're to go and proclaim Him. I think this interview with Coach Wooden we've compiled into 107 minutes, two CDs, that would make a great gift to give each of your children's coaches, whether they be a Little League coach, a junior high, high school, college, it doesn't matter. In fact, Bob, I've reflected on this – many times I wish I'd had these two CDs to have given a coach who maybe was saying a little more than he should be saying; maybe acting a way that he shouldn't have been acting, and I just have to believe that there are some coaches who are going to get these CDs – some dads and some moms who are going to – they're going to think about how they coach, how they behave, how they teach in ways because of this great coach's example. He is truly like Christ. Bob: What they're going to hear in the interview with Coach Wooden that you can have character and integrity and self-control and still be a champion. In fact, you can be one of the greatest coaches who ever lived. We've got the two-CD set available here on our FamilyLife Resource Center, and whether you want to listen to it yourself or pass it on to a coach or a player, you can contact us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Ask for the two-CD set entitled "True Succes: A Personal Visit with John Wooden" when you contact us. Again, you can order online at FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Dennis: It's a little early yet to be buying a Father's Day gift, but you might think about just getting this and stockpiling this for June. Bob: That's a great idea. And when you think about true success, Coach Wooden has mapped out for us what he calls a "Pyramid of Success." He's taken the character qualities that he thinks are foundational to success – things like industriousness, loyalty and cooperation and initiative and alertness and skill. There are many of them in this pyramid. He's put the pyramid together, kind of like an engineer would do, to show that it's possible for anyone to achieve success in any field if these things are true about them. We've got his Pyramid of Success. We've got a video where he explains the pyramid. We've got the pyramid itself on our website at FamilyLife.com and on a mousepad that you can have at your desk, and then we've got a wallet card that has been laminated that you can carry around where some of Coach Wooden's counsel on living is recorded. His seven-point creed – that's on a laminated card that we'll send to you, along with the video and the mousepad. Ask for those resources when you call 1-800-FLTODAY. You know, our opportunity to provide these kinds of resources to you really comes as a direct result of folks all around the country who help support this ministry week in and week out with donations. Dennis: And, Bob, there are two ways that they can join with us. One is as a Legacy Partner, a monthly donor to our ministry, and there's another group of people who give from time to time – they may make out a check and just send it in and say I can't help you each month, but I can help this month. You need to know that this ministry is 100 percent dependent upon God to move people like you who benefit from our broadcast to join with us in a partnership, and we need your partnership. These are important days for you to stand with us. Bob: Once again, if you'd like to donate to FamilyLife Today, you can do it online at FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY or mail a check to us at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas. Our zip code is 72221. Well, if you ever wondered what it was like to coach a basketball game in the Astrodome with TV lights blaring down on you, a nation watching, 50,000 fans there cheering the home team on, and you're the coach of the opposing team, and you've won 88 games in a row, you're going for number 89 and you lose – do you stay up all night worrying about what happened? We'll find out when we talk to Coach John Wooden tomorrow. I hope you can be with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal [sp], and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Pyramid of SuccessDay 3 of 3 Guest: John Wooden From the series: True Success: A Personal Visit with John Wooden Bob: There are a lot of skills in life that, according to Coach John Wooden, are more important than being able to hit a jumpshot or sink a free throw in the middle of a basketball game. One of the character qualities that Coach Wooden tried to instill in all of his players was the quality of poise, which he defines as being comfortable with just being yourself. John: The person who has poise is not acting, they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. They are themselves, therefore, they are going to function in whatever they're doing near their own particular level of confidence. There will be no fear, no trepidation at all. They'll function near their own particular level of confidence, because they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, April 4th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Before you sit down to watch the games this weekend, you ought to hear what The Coach has to say. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. How does this work? This is April, but this is the end of March Madness. So is this just kind of a spillover? Technically, is this April Madness that we're going to experience? Dennis: I think it's March Madness without aspirin – there's been no cure, Bob. Bob: Tomorrow, of course, are the semi-finals in college basketball, and then Monday night the championship game in what's called The Final Four, and it's all over the papers and all over the TV, and it's even here on FamilyLife Today, although we're not talking about this year's Final Four. We are talking with a man who has been there year in and year out. Dennis: He really has – Coach John Wooden coached UCLA to 10 national championships out of 12 years. What a great man. I just remember watching, as a young lad, his championship teams – the first year he won, 1964 – Gale Goodrich helped win that national championship. He came back the next year and scored over 40 points in a game, and it's funny how you can remember those things as a kid, but basketball was a very important part of my life, and I think parents need to pay attention to their children's athletics. Not just for their performance and whether or not they win the championships but the kind of coaches they have, the kind of influence that they have on them. And, Bob, you know, you were there when I received a phone call from the Washington Post asking me for my opinion if a parent should be informed if their daughter is going to play for a coach who is a lesbian, and they were wanting to know what I thought about that, and my ultimate point was character does matter, and a person's sexual practice and sexual preference are a reflection of his or her true character. And Coach Wooden grew up in a family where he learned character, and he raised a family where they had great character. In fact, his daughter was in the room where we were interviewing him, and she was smiling so big during this interview, and she told us later it was one of her favorite interviews she's ever heard with her daddy who, at the time, Coach Wooden was 91 years of age. And she was just beaming, because we were drilling down deep around the stories that surrounded their family. Bob: You had asked him about regrets from coaching and yesterday we heard him share some of those regrets, and then you turned the conversation and asked him about any regrets at home. Here is our interview with Coach John Wooden: Dennis: I know something that I heard that you did that you don't regret, and that was spanking your daughter one time when she was in the fifth grade. You're laughing. You think it was the right thing? John: Yes, I think it was the right thing. Dennis: Tell us about it. John: Well, she had wanted very much a wristwatch, and I couldn't get the wristwatch at the time. I had one coming for her. I got her – and we got a cameo ring that we thought was very pretty and very nice, and when we gave it to her, we had some guests there – some friends – and she wanted the wristwatch. She took that cameo ring and threw it, and she went to her room in a hurry with me after her, and I spanked her. I think it's the only spanking that Nancy ever got from me. I spanked her. But what hurt her a lot is I made her march back in and apologize to our friends, and I think that hurt her worse. I didn't hurt her too much on the spanking. I remember that. That's the only time. Dennis: You were married for 53 years before Nellie's death. John: Correct. Dennis: It's my understanding that you have a tradition on the anniversary of her death – something that you're doing on a regular basis in honor of her. John: Oh, I write her a letter, mm-hm. We, Nan and Jim and I go to the cemetery, and we write her a letter. Dennis: Just a letter expressing your heart, your love, your appreciation for the 53 years you shared with her? John: More than that – there were several years before, you know, and still – still. Dennis: She was a soulmate. John: Indeed. Dennis: How so? John: Well, it will be kind of hard to explain just from first time, but there was something there almost from the first time we ever got acquainted, and she was the one for me, she was the one for me, she was the one for me. Bob: Did she love basketball like you loved basketball? John: She loved what I loved. Bob: So if you loved basketball, she loved basketball. John: That's right. My main regret is that I didn't do the things that she liked to do. She always did the things that I did. She liked to dance, and I didn't. I regret that I didn't learn to do more of the things – maybe go to operas and learn to dance and things of that sort. Those are things I regret. Dennis: What was your favorite quality about her? John: I don't know how to answer favorites – it's just love, just love – something about her – I just loved her. Dennis: Tell us how your relationship with Jesus Christ fit into your marriage and your family? John: Well, I think that started going back in my early years. My mother and father just good Christian people – not because they went to church and had us all go to church I don't think, necessarily, going to church makes you a good Christian, but Dad, I think, always reading the Scriptures every night, and I think that encouraged the children. Dennis: Was there a time when you made a commitment as a young man or a boy to Jesus Christ that you look back on as being the time when your faith began? John: I wish I could say that, but I can't. I was baptized in 1927 with Nellie, because she wanted me to, and my parents wanted me to – and her parents – so I was baptized. But in my heart I didn't really accept Christ then, and when I did, I can't say. It wasn't a sudden overnight thing – something didn't happen. I think it was just a gradual thing that came along. I've heard of people saying one thing happened and it changed. There wasn't any one thing. Bob: Apart from your mom and dad, were there spiritual influences in your life as you went through coaching and as you continued as an adult? John: Well, to some extent, many of the things that – I loved Lincoln – and many of the things of his life and his wonderful ability to say so much in just a few words and those things, and he was a spiritual man. I think perhaps Billy Graham has always stood out to me above all others, and I don't want to say that the others aren't, but he just has stood out a little more in spiritual things. And there have been things that have happened in my life that were strange – I wouldn't call them exactly spiritual. I was in the service, I was to go aboard the USS Franklin in the South Pacific, and I had an emergency appendectomy, and somebody else went in my place, and that person who took my place was killed. It wasn't my time. Bob: The variety of players that you've had over the years – you've seen young men with all different orientations on life – some who have no interest in anything spiritual or religious; some who were devoutly interested in spiritual or religious things; in fact, it may have gotten in the way of their basketball sometimes, their interest in religious things, I don't know. And then, of course, in a high-profile sense, you had one young man who had a very high-profile conversion that involved a name change. What did you think when Lew Alcindor came and said, "I don't want to be called Lew anymore. My new name is Kareem." John: He never talked to me about it, and that wasn't done until after he was out of school. I've had three players that have done that – all outstanding players. Walter Hazzard was the first one – he changed Abdul-Rahman, but that was after he was out of school. But here he has – his father's a minister, and he did. And the third one is Keith Wilkes – now it's Jamaal. I don't think I've ever known a finer person than Jamaal Wilkes – I don't know of a finer person, and his father also is a minister. Now, he's the one that talked to me – all this happened after they left UCLA. He asked me what I thought about it, and I said, "Well, it seems that most religions rely on our second commandment and not the first," which I don't approve of it, but I said, "What does your dad say?" He said, "About the same thing as you said." Dennis: Coach, when I was a young man, I was in junior college – I think it was my sophomore year, when you played Houston in the Astrodome in front of 52,000 fans. It was a big showdown – number one, UCLA, undefeated, with Lew Alcindor against Elvin Hayes and the number-two ranked Houston Cougars. John: It was the most widely televised athletic event for that time – the most widely televised, and there was about 52,000, they tell me, paid, but over 55,000 in there. Bob: A few guys snuck in without paying, huh? (laughter) Dennis: What were you feeling? I mean, did you feel anything any different about that game than any other game? John: No, I didn't. I didn't think it was a place to play basketball – had that floor way out there, and you're a quarter of a mile from your dressing room. I told me players that if they had needs to go to the bathroom, they better do it quick, because we're not going to have time for you to walk a quarter of a mile to go do it. It was a tremendous ball game, and it was good for basketball, very good for basketball. Dennis: As you have been a coach over the years, and a teacher, you have developed a definition of success and what you'd call the Pyramid of Success. Could you just explain, just briefly, to our listeners the definition of success and what you've created here in this Pyramid of Success? John: Well, first of all, as an English teacher, I became a little bit disappointed, disillusioned somewhat that parents of youngsters in my English classes – many, if they're youngster did not receive and A or a B in one way or another I found that many parents would make the youngster or the teacher feel that they had failed. Now, our good Lord, in His infinite wisdom, didn't create us all alike as far as intelligence is concerned, any more than we're not alike as far as appearance or size or anything else. Not everybody could earn an A or B, and I had youngsters that didn't that I thought did very well. I'd be proud of them if I were the parent. But I didn't like that way of judging, and I wanted to come up with my own definition of success, and it came from three things. One, my father tried to teach us to never try to be better than somebody else. Always learn from others and never cease trying to be the best you can be. That's under your control, and the other isn't, and if you get too involved and engrossed and concerned in regard to things over which you have no control, it will adversely affect the things over which you have control. And I also recalled a discussion in class that we'd had many years before where success was discussed and most everyone went along with Mr. Webster's definition – "the accumulation of material possession or the attainment of position of power or prestige," or something of that sort. And then I ran across a verse, and as you have indicated, I like verse, and I ran across this simple verse that said, "At God's footstool to confess, a poor soul knelt and bowed his head; 'I have failed,' he cried; the Master said 'Thou didst thy best.' That is success." I believe that's true. And from those three things I coined my own definition of success. Success is peace of mind attained only through self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to become the best of which you are capable, and you're the only one who will know that. You can fool everybody else. It's like character and reputation – your character – you're the only one that knows, and you're reputation is what you're perceived to be by others, but your character is what you really are. So that was what I wanted to use to help me become a better teacher and to give the youngsters under my supervision something to which to aspire other than just a higher mark or more points in some athletic endeavor, but it didn't seem to be serving a purpose for which I had hoped, and I had tried to analyze it, and I came to the conclusion that it would be much better if I came up with something you could see. But it gave me an idea of a pyramid, and I started working on that, and I worked on it for the next 14 years. But somehow the first two blocks I selected were the cornerstones, and if any structure is to have any real strength and solidity, it must have a strong foundation, and the cornerstones anchor it, and I used "industrious" and "enthusiasm," and I believe that today. From those two, and I think they're strong – you have to enjoy what you're doing, and you have to work hard. You can't work near your own particular ability level unless you enjoy what you're doing. You may think you are, but you can't unless you really enjoy it. And, along with the foundation, I wanted blocks that included others, so I chose "friendship," "loyalty," and "cooperation," and then gradually moved up to the second tier – "self-control," "alertness," "initiative" and "intentness." And then going up to the heart, which I call being in condition for whatever you're doing – whether you're an athlete, whether you're a surgeon, whether you're a deep-sea diver – whatever you are – being in condition for whatever you're doing can be attained by practicing moderation. And then you have to have the skills. You must know how to do things, you must be able to do it, and you must be able to do them quickly, oftentimes. Then "team spirit" – that's consideration for others. I could talk on that for a long time – consideration for others. And all these blocks below will help you become confident. You can't have confidence unless you're prepared. Failure to prepare is preparing to fail, and you can't have confidence without being prepared, or you can't have that without the blocks below. You must have confidence, and then you must have poise, and I also coined my own definition of poise and poise, to me, is just being yourself. The person who has poise is not acting, they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. They are themselves, therefore, they are going to function in whatever they're doing near their own particular level of confidence. There will be no fear, no trepidation at all. They'll function near their own particular level of confidence, because they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. And all these blocks will make you competitive – competitive. You'll enjoy it, you'll enjoy it. There's joy in being involved in something difficult. There's no great joy in doing things that anybody else can do, although they must be done to the best of your ability regardless of whether difficult or easy, but the joy comes in being involved in a difficult situation, and these blocks below will bring them up. And then leading up to the apex on which success rests, I put on one side, "patience" and "faith." Good things take time and should. We don't want them to, but they should. Things should take time, and we must have faith. We must have faith that things will work out as they should, which doesn't mean that they'll work out exactly as we want them to. But if we have faith, and we do what we should – too often we want things to happen a certain way, but we don't do the things that would necessarily help that become reality. We just want it to happen. But you have to have faith. If you do what you should, things will work out as they should. So that's a very brief synopsis of the pyramid. Dennis: Well, I'm sitting here looking at the actual pyramid, Bob, and we're going to put it on the website as well – FamilyLife.com – and give folks a picture of this pyramid and what it exactly is, but he nailed it perfectly. Bob: Without looking at it. Dennis: Without looking at the copy I've got. I just want to say, Coach, to you, thank you for living an exemplary life, for being a man who has taught many of us over your lifetime, and I just appreciate you joining Bob and me and cheering on some moms and dads and husbands and wives who are in the throes of raising the next generation of young people. Thanks for helping us build a great team here on FamilyLife Today. John: You're very kind, and I appreciate the kind words. Bob: Well, that is the voice of legendary coach John Wooden who, today, is 92 years old, and undoubtedly on his way to catch the games this weekend and Monday night in the Final Four. He said he's been to most of them, even since his retirement, and just to hear the humility in his voice. That was characteristic of Coach Wooden all the way through his life, wasn't it? Dennis: It really was and, again, I just had to go back to the Book of Proverbs and think about Solomon speaking to his son and exhorting him – "acquire understanding, embrace wisdom, listen to the words of your father. Heed them, and you'll live. If you don't, you'll be a fool, and you'll die." And Coach Wooden has exhorted us over the past couple of days to heed well our assignments in life, whether we be single, married, parents, grandparents, but to leave a legacy. You remember, Bob, I told our listeners that there was a story I was going to conclude today with that is a real favorite, and I want to do that in just a moment, but I want you to tell our listeners how they can get a copy of this CD that we're making available for – not just the basketball players, but for dads and for coaches of any and every sport that your children may know. Bob: It's actually a two-CD set that features our entire conversation with Coach Wooden, much of which we were not able to include over the last three days here on FamilyLife Today. This hour-and-47-minute conversation took place not long ago as we sat down with Coach Wooden and just probed issues relating to his life, his marriage, his family, his coaching, and his view of success, and it's a great tool to pass on, as you said, Dennis, to players, to coaches, to enthusiasts, to fans. It's a great way to open a door and begin to talk with them about what makes up true greatness in a life and in a profession. Dennis: You may want to consider getting multiple copies of these CDs because you really only heard about half of the material, over the last three days, that are on these sets that we recorded. Bob: You can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY to request the two-CD set. Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. You can also go online to order at FamilyLife.com. While you're online, you can see John Wooden's Pyramid of Success. The Coach sat down, and he has got the mind of an engineer and the soul of a poet, and he laid out for us a pyramid, where he said here's what I think real success looks like, and how you achieve competitive greatness. It's built on poise and confidence and then on conditioning and skill and team spirit. He lays out all of the qualities that make up real success. We've got a video where Coach explains that success pyramid along with a mousepad that has the pyramid on it and a pocket-sized card you can carry along that has some of Coach Wooden's counsel on how to live on this wallet-size card. It would be a great gift to give to somebody who loves the sport, loves The Coach. You can call 1-800-FLTODAY for more information about these resources or about the two-CD set of our interviews with Coach Wooden. Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Dennis. Dennis: I mentioned a story that I was going to share about – at the end of our interview, we got up to leave, and Coach Wooden was using a cane to kind of make his way to the elevator, and he gave me a book and you, too, I believe, Bob, and I took the book, and it was about leadership, and I said, "Coach, would you just mind signing that to me, and as you did, Coach," I said, "you don't know this about me, but I was pretty good in high school. I set the school record, which still stands, for most points scored. I played junior college basketball on scholarship and, Coach, I remember watching you as a kid growing up," and I said, "If you wouldn't mind, Coach, would you just write in the front – 'To Dennis – you could have played for me at UCLA. Signed, Coach John Wooden,' and then date it." He looked up at me, and a little mischievous grin worked its way across his lips, and he said, "Dennis, we just talked about integrity, didn't we? I can't do that." He said, "But here," and he reached up, kind of in a spry way and took the book from my hands, and began to write, and he was just getting a bigger and bigger grin as he wrote, and he closed the cover and handed it back to me and said, "There you go." And I now have that book in my office. It says, "To Dennis – Since I never recruited out of state, why didn't you call me? Coach John Wooden." That will be one of my prized possessions in everything that I own. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. For Better or For Worse Guest: John & Donna BishopFrom the series: God is So Good Bob: More than a decade and a half ago, John Bishop was experiencing headaches that took him to the hospital. He was diagnosed with meningitis, and then a month later, unexpectedly, his memory was gone. What happens to a person, to a marriage and a family, when everything about the past has been erased? John Bishop says you have to start back at the beginning, learning to walk, to talk, learning to love. John: When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I Donna, we're married." I said, "Married? Married?" And she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that. That means you belong to me, and I belong to you." I look at her, I say, "You my Donna?" She said, "Yes." That what I call her ever since – "My Donna." It was so easy to love her. She loved me so good. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, August 5th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What would happen to your marriage if, all of a sudden, you were starting from scratch? John: I tell people she taught me everything I know. Every woman dream come true – her husband forget it all, and she get teach him. [laughter] Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. In our years of interviewing folks, we've met a number of couples and heard some remarkable love stories, but the story our listeners are hearing this week is an all-time classic, isn't it? Dennis: It may be the best. I mean, we've heard some great ones here, but we wanted to bring this story to you, as a listener. John and Donna were married in 1974. They had three sons. He was an evangelist for a number of years, pastored a church, had a ranch for young people that he helped staff and give leadership to. Bob: It was back in 1995, though, that he was diagnosed with aseptic meningitis and had to be hospitalized, and normally you recover from aseptic meningitis and life goes on. Dennis: But what happened was, it was like someone erased the chalkboard. All the memory, all of his understanding of all the basics of life were gone because of this disease. Bob: This is a month after he's had his meningitis that he loses his complete memory. He doesn't know that he's married, he doesn't know what marriage is, he doesn't know how to talk, he doesn't know how to eat. Dennis: He doesn't know who God is. Bob: It's like starting from scratch and, obviously, that leads to an incredible stress on a marriage, on a family. I mean, what do you do from there, right? Dennis: It's one thing, Bob, to have a life-threatening illness and live through that valley, but the story you're going to hear is all about how they picked up and began to live life on a daily basis. Bob: Donna, it's almost like when you brought John home from the hospital, you were bringing home a newborn baby who had some adult-level functionality but some very baby-like qualities. Was he ever like a bad boy? When he was home from the hospital, were there ever times when you thought, "I'm going to have to" … Dennis: Let's put it the way it is, Bob – did he ever pitch a fit? Bob: Or a tantrum? John: I can answer that – yes. Bob: Did he go through the terrible twos with you? [laughter] Donna: Yes, he would – especially when it came to eating. He wanted to eat his dessert first. "Why do I have to" – you know, he was always asking questions, why he has to do this and do that, and it was funny, one time I came home, and he was trying to help me, so he was washing the dishes. When he washed the dishes, he broke a plate or a glass or something, and so he hid it in the trash, buried it in the bottom of the trash so I wouldn't know that he broke a plate. So, you know, he was hiding things from me and sneaking around behind me when he was doing things he thought I didn't want him to do. Bob: Now, here's your husband. John: [laughing] Yes … Bob: … acting this way, and you feel like you have to paddle him, spank him, for how he's behaving? How do you handle that, as a wife, when … Donna: I'd be glad to spank him. [laughter] John: She never spanked me, but she had to get after me but, oh, she has been so patient. Bob: When did you – when did it dawn on you that you had a sin nature – that deep inside of you is this rebellion that you want to be selfish, and you want things the way you want them. When did that register for you? John: Once I began listening to the Bible on tape, I – for instance, Bob, I can remember first lie I told, and at least after the illness. In the hospital the nurses had asked me if I had taken something, and it was something I didn't like, and so I had thrown it away, and I told her I had taken it. Now, I didn't know what a lie was, but I felt guilty. But later on I learned what lying was. Dennis: I'm sitting here thinking when you hid the plate – that also had to result in some guilt. John: Yes, mm-hm. Dennis: So here is God convicting you of your need for forgiveness, your need for Savior. And yet you've already made that commitment as a young lad growing up. You don't happen to have that sheet of paper do you? Bob: The page in your Bible that shares your testimony? John: No, I didn't bring it. I sorry, I didn't bring it with me. Dennis: Basically, what does that sheet of paper say? John: Well, it tells about that Saturday night in September. I was brought up in Bristol, Tennessee, over in east Tennessee, and there was a citywide crusade, and the preacher was C.E. Autry. He is with the Lord now. As a matter of fact, I've got a book. I have his name down. I can even tell you the song they sang that night. On my testimony CD I have some people sing it – "It is no Secret What God Can Do." [music – "It Is No Secret What God Can Do"] Evidently, that song meant a lot to me, and so I even put that down – they sang that song that night. I was a 15-year-old teenage boy and lost home, and Mama was telling me that none of the family was saved at this point. And I even wrote that I brought a Gospel tract home from the stadium, the Tennessee High football stadium, it's still there, and with John 3:16 on it, I can tell you it was a Saturday night that September, I got on my knees, and I put my name where "whosoever was" – "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him," and I put my name – "whosoever" there – "should not perish but have everlasting life." I know all those details but can't remember a bit of it, but I wrote it there, and I'm just so glad that I received the Lord as a teenager. And then Mama said I surrendered to the call to preach, and preached my first sermon a month after my salvation, and I've been preaching ever since. The Lord has just helped me and, matter of fact, she said able to be interim pastor of a little country church when a senior in high school, and this is true now – it's Goose Pimple Junction, Virginia. That's where it was – population 29, and so … Dennis: Hold it, hold it, Goose Pimple … John: Yes. Bob: Junction? John: Mm-hm, Virginia, and it is there. You've been there, haven't you, Donna? Donna: Been there, yes, sir. [laughter] Bob: Donna, did you ever have anyone come alongside you after the illness, while you were trying to care for raising your boys and care for John and say, "You know, there's a place he could stay where they'd take care of him, and you shouldn't have to bear this burden?" Did you have folks suggest that to you? Donna: Yes, sir, I had somebody suggest that I could do that, you know, if I got tired and so forth, and I would get tired of taking care of him, but I thought about it. I thought, you know, I could, but just go on. I just was never tempted to do anything like that. Dennis: Now, what our listeners don't know is the length of time this story took. I mean, we're not talking about 30 days in rehab back to John getting to normal. John, give our listeners an idea here of the timeline we're talking about here. John: Well, for several weeks, Dennis, she had to do everything for me, and you know what I mean, I say everything. I was like a baby. This went on for weeks and weeks. Like I say, it took me near two years to where I could walk, and I had to work at it, work at it, and so forth, but it was just incredible how good she was to me. I remember one day she finishing cleaning me up again, and I look at her, I say, "Donna, why so good to me?" And she said, "Well, two reasons." And I said, "What that?" "Well," she said, "one, I promise I would." I said, "Promise? I don't remember promise." And she went and got our marriage vows, and she brought them, and she said, "John, we got married." I said, "In sickness and health, better or worse," and I remember I said, "Donna, I am so sorry it this worse, but thank you keeping promise, thank you." And then she said, "But second reason is" – and she gave me a big hug and says, "I love you." And I got an award back a couple of years ago. A college had asked me to come and they surprise me, they asked me give testimony, and they were giving me an award, and so I was so scared I was going to have to say something and right at last minute, and I thought, "What I going to say?" And here is what I said – I got up, I said, "I'm going to take this award home to my Donna, and will get on my knees, put in her lap, and I'm going to say, 'Donna, if it wasn't for God and you, I wouldn't even be alive much less getting this." So I said, "This yours." I said, "One day I get to heaven, and I'm going to say 'God, why you been so good to me?' and I think God going to give me two reasons. He going to say, "One, I promise I would," and He might remind me Roman 8:28, "All things work together good them love the Lord," and maybe say "John, I told you you love me, everything all right," and then I believe God going to give me a hug, and I believe God a good hugger, and He going to say, "But, John, main reason I love you," and I sure hope I have something put at His feet and say "Thank you, God." But I can't describe how good she's been to me, and God and everybody been so good to me. Dennis: How does that make you feel, Donna? I mean, I'm over here crying. Donna: I'm thankful that the Lord gave me the strength and that I was taught those valuable lessons that my family taught me and my church taught me when I was young, that it's worth it. It's worth it in the end. Don't ever bail. Just stay with it, God will bless you. Dennis: For two years it took you to learn how to walk? Donna: To walk good, you know, without stumbling and up steps. He has a real hard time with steps. Dennis: But even beyond that, John, you've suffered incredible headaches. John: Yes. Dennis: I mean, and just times of just feeling lousy. John: Yes. Dennis: And that's continued on for how long? John: All 12 years. Immediately, because of the brain damage, I began having seizures, and I still have those. But I gladly not quite as bad, and then cluster migraine headaches is what I have, and that's what actually caused my blindness. They change nature, they're sort of what they call "ocular" cluster migraine. But those have been big struggles for me, and I got very depressed, very discouraged. I wish I tell you I got sick and just said, "Oh, everything be fine," and went on. I didn't, Dennis. I got very depressed and went through some very dark times, and I even prayed, "Lord, please take me home, please, because I hurt," and I felt burden for my Donna. She never tell me I burden, but I felt that way, and depressed people do. And I got so depressed, I begged the Lord, "Please take me home, please." I tell people when I talk audience, I said, "You never life seen person want to die and pray harder than man looking at," and then I say, "But now you never in your life want to see – ever seen anybody want to live more than man you're looking at." God turned that around and helped me through those dark times. But that was mainly because of the pain issues and the seizures. I called them issues instead of problems. They just become problem if I let them, but I've had a lot of issues, you know, to go through, but the Lord's given me grace every time. Bob: You know, the name of your ministry … John: Yes? Bob: "God is so Good" Ministries. John: Yes. Bob: John, some of our listeners are going to hear this and say how can you, with all you've been through, testify to the goodness of God. If God was good, why would He allow all of this to happen to you? John: Yes, and, you know, Bob, that was the struggle I was going through. Those questions were going through my mind, and I needed to get hold of something, and the truth I got hold of, I was listening to Bible on tape, but I really loved the Book of Psalms because David been through some trials, too. So I listened to it over, over, over. Matter of fact, I wore that tape out and had to get another one. And he kept saying, though, "The Lord is good." He kept saying it, one psalm after other, other – "God is good." And I'm not saying that all that God is – He is also holy, and He's just, and He's righteous, but the two things that stand out to me is He is good and He's right no matter what happens. He's always good, and He's always right. Our God put Himself through pain. I am able to read now, Dennis, and I'm not smart enough to be able to know a lot of general information, so I focus my reading on people who are hurting, because that's my whole life now, is helping hurting people. The one thing I can tell people is nobody is hurt more than God. When He gave His Son – they say one of the greatest pains a person can go through is the death of a child, but yet He let Him go through greatest pain anybody ever through because something better and – now, I don't have to know what all the better is, but I know I can trust this God because He let Himself hurt. Jesus suffered more than any of us will ever know, and if God love His Son and let Him go through that because He knew something better for everybody, I'm going to trust Him that He got something better for me and everybody, too. You can trust a God like that. He's not like many other religions have gods that are above pain and above suffering. Oh, God put Himself right in middle of it, and I can't always tell people I know how something feel unless I'd been through it, but I can tell them the Lord does because His Son went through the most incredible pain ever been and the reason we're here today is because He did. So I know good going to come from it because He's a good God. Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 2 of a conversation with John and Donna Bishop and, Dennis, as I was listening to John talk about responding to his own trials, his own pain, I thought of 2 Corinthians, chapter 1, where Paul says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of all mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves have been comforted by God." He is a living application of that verse. Rather than being consumed by his own pain and suffering and saying, "Why me?" He is comforting others in their affliction. Dennis: He is, and, you know, as we've talked here today, it just occurred to me – there are two groups of people that are listening to this broadcast. One group, who is in the midst of suffering, and they're going through the valley right now, and they know exactly what John is talking about, and they have been comforted, as you've talked about. But I want to remind that group of people where John's comfort came from, and to do that, I want to quote Dr. A.W. Tozer. He said, "The most important thing you think is what you think about God." And the key to John's faith was he had the right thoughts about who God was. He got them from the Scripture – that God is a good God. No matter what happens to us, He is still good. No matter what befalls those we love, God hasn't changed. "The most important thing you think is what you think about God." There's a second group, though, and it's a far larger number, I think, Bob, even though we have a ton of listeners who are hurting who listen to this broadcast, and it's the larger number who need to be reminded of what they promised. They promised, "'Til death do us part," and they needed to hear this love story. I needed to hear it. Who doesn't need to hear of a compelling promise that two people have made to each other to go through such an incredible ordeal as what Donna and John Bishop went through. Maybe you just need to take your spouse's hand before the day is over, and you just say two things – "I promised" and "I love you," and that's a great place to begin to build a family. Bob: You know, I think about the listeners who, over the next couple of weeks, are going to be off on a trip somewhere, a vacation or headed somewhere in the car. They ought to get a copy of this CD and listen to it together as they drive wherever it is they're going together. In fact, if the whole family is along, this would be a great story for the whole family to listen to. We've got copies of the CD in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and if our listeners would like to receive a copy, they can contact us online at FamilyLife.com or by calling 1-800-FLTODAY. If you go online, when you get to the home page, on the right side of the screen, you'll see a box that says "Today's Broadcast," click where it says "Learn More," and you can find out how to order a copy of the CD that features our complete conversation with John and Donna Bishop. We've had to edit parts of it for time purposes here on FamilyLife Today. Or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask for a copy of the CD with John and Donna Bishop. Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329. When you contact us someone on our team will make arrangements to have the CD sent out to you. You know, on Friday nights at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, Dennis, we talk about the inevitable difficulties that will come to every marriage. Very few folks will receive the kind of trial that John and Donna have had to experience in their marriage, but all of us will experience challenges and trials in a marriage and in a family. The question is – are we ready for those trials when they come? Are we building the foundation of our relationship each day so that when a trial comes, we are ready to face it because we can stand strong together on our relationship with Jesus Christ. You and your wife, Barbara, wrote a book several months ago, a devotional book for couples called "Moments With You," that is designed for a husband and wife to read through together each day, to spend some time in prayer together, to look at a passage from the Scriptures each day, with the hope that those few minutes invested together will strengthen the foundation of your relationship. And this week we're making copies of your devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," available to our listeners when they contact us with a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We are listener-supported. Those donations are what keep us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and so we appreciate hearing from you. If you go online to make a donation at FamilyLife.com, and you'd like to receive a copy of the devotional book, "Moments With You," just type the word "You" in the keycode box that you see on the donation form, the word, y-o-u, and we'll make arrangements to have a copy of the book sent to you. If you call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation over the phone, just request a copy of the book, "Moments With You," and, again, we're happy to send it out to you as a way of saying thank you for your partnership with us and for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We appreciate you. Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear about how John and Donna Bishop can continue to call God good, even after all they've been through, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. ______________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Reading to Children (Part 1) - Sally Lloyd-JonesReading to Children (Part 2) - Sally Lloyd-JonesFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Reading to Children Guest: Sally Lloyd-Jones From the series: Telling Stories to Children (Day 2 of 2) Bob: Do you read stories to your children? Do you read Bible stories to them? Sally Lloyd-Jones has a caution for you. Sally: Whenever we read a story and then we say, “Well, what that story's about…”—whatever we put on the other side of “about”—that becomes the only thing that story's about. The minute we do that—it's terrible / it's the worst thing you could ever say. I'm passionate about that because of what that does—is, basically, you've decided what that story is about / you've decided what God might want to say to that child—but what if God wants to say something completely different? Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, December 8th. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. There is great power in telling good stories. We'll hear from a great story-teller today, Sally Lloyd-Jones. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. We're having a delightful time this week with a delightful friend. 1:00 Before we introduce her again, we're in the final weeks of the year. This is a pretty important, pretty strategic time for us as a ministry. Dennis: It is! I'll tell you something that delights me—I love hearing from listeners. I heard, recently, from a single mom who said our broadcast gives her hope every day to keep on keeping on. Here's one from somebody who struggled through the heartbreak of a divorce and a broken family—she said: “It helped me grow in Christ immensely.” And then one other: “Our marriage was falling apart. I started listening, daily, to FamilyLife Today. The information I received gave me the strength to fight for my marriage.” We have a lot of folks, Bob, who are finding help and hope for their marriage and family. But in order for us to do that, we need listeners to step up and say: “I want to stand with you guys as you guys proclaim the biblical blueprints for a marriage and a family. You're ministering to marriages and families and leaving legacies, all across the nation and all around the globe.” 2:00 Would you stand with us right now? Bob: It's easy to make a yearend contribution. You can do it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. There's a matching-gift opportunity that's in effect so, when you give your donation, it's going to be doubled—the impact of your giving will be doubled. You'll help us reach more people in 2018 and that's our goal—is to reach more people with practical biblical help and hope. Again, you can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Now, back to our conversation with our guest, Sally Lloyd-Jones. We've been talking about holidays; we've been talking about family, and fun, and about food. In fact, you don't think there can be good Christmas food in Great Britain. When you were over there, you thought all the food was horrible; right? Dennis: “I was trying to find out a way to get across the English Channel to get to France.” [Laughter] Bob: Have you watched The Great British Bake Off? Have you watched that show? Dennis: I have not, Bob. Bob: Have you watched it? Sally: Yes; everyone's obsessed! 3:00 Bob: I know, it's amazing; isn't it? Dennis: Bob, I'm concerned about you—you're watching The British Bake Off! Bob: The Great British Bake Off is a great reality show. Barbara, you would love The Great British Bake Off. Barbara: I would? Okay. Bob: So, make Dennis watch it. Dennis: No; she wouldn't; she does not like to cook! [Laughter] Barbara: I enjoy watching other people cook. Bob: That's exactly the point. Sally: That's perfectly fine with me! Dennis: I do want to welcome Sally Lloyd-Jones back to the broadcast. Welcome back. Sally: Thank you so much. Dennis: We're thrilled to have you. She was born and raised in Africa, schooled in England, lives in New York City, but will celebrate Christmas back in England— Barbara: —eating figgy pudding—we found out. Dennis: —eating figgy pudding. Bob: That's right! Dennis: She is a great author. She's written a number of best-selling books, including The Jesus Storybook Bible, Song of the Stars, and one we are going to talk about today called, Found, which is the 23rd Psalm. And then a book about a child's identity, and his voice in this world their living in. How many books have you written? Sally: Over 25. I had to count them up the other day. Barbara: Wow! Dennis: Yes? That's amazing! 4:00 Your whole journey started out writing books for children when you were a little girl and you read a book that opened your mind and your heart to a whole new world with books. Sally: Yes! When I was about seven, I thought books were to learn, to be serious, [and] to do at school. I wasn't a child that really thrived at school—I was a bit dreamy. I was given this book called The Complete Nonsense by Edward Lear. In England, a lot of people know that book; but they may not in America—he's not quite so well-known here. But I'd advise everyone to get that book! I'm not getting anything—it sounds like I'm getting referrals—but I'm not! I'm just passionate about it. The reason I am is that it changed everything. I got this book, and it was the first book I had ever read all the way through—I was seven. I opened up the book and there were these insane, in a good way, crazy limericks about people with long noses and great, long beards and birds that nested in the beards and then he did all the drawings in pen himself. They were completely like just zany! 5:00 It was a revelation. I had no idea you could have so much fun inside a book. It changed everything. From then on, I wrote limericks and illustrations and then inflicted them on my poor friends and family. The reason I tell that story is that they often say that whatever you were doing when you were maybe six—five or six or seven—before you became self-conscious, and you became what you thought everyone wanted you to be—whatever you loved doing at that point, often clues you in to what should be in your life, whether it's your job or a hobby. For me, it's been proven so true. I was loving this book that was so much fun and having fun inside books; and now, all these years later—it took a long time and a long journey / and very twisty—but here I am, all these years later, basically having fun inside books, and hoping that I can get children to have fun inside books. Dennis: Inviting them to the party! Sally: Yes! Exactly, and realizing laughter—that's such a gift that God's given us. 6:00 Bob: You had an experience where you were telling a Bible story to a group of children, and it changed your thinking about how to tell stories to them. Sally: Yes; yes. I like to tell this story on myself, because I don't ever want anyone to think I think of myself as an expert. I'm learning every time I read to children. This particular time, I was invited to a Sunday school; and I was reading from The Jesus Storybook Bible—it was probably about like six years ago. I'm very good at getting children out of control—I think that's part of my job, getting them laughing—but I'm not so good at getting them under control. The Sunday school teacher had wandered away; so I read this whole story, Daniel and the Scary Sleepover. The story was all about Daniel and how he was obedient, even though he might be punished and killed; and that, one day, God was going to send another hero, who would again be willing to do whatever God told Him, no matter what it cost Him—that's how the story ends. While I'm reading this story, there's this young girl—she's probably about six—she's kneeling up. As I'm telling this story, she's so engaged—she's almost trying to get into my lap—she's so engaged. At the end of the story, I panicked; because there was no teacher, I thought, “I have to say something.” 7:00 So, I went: “So, children,”—and I was horrified to hear this come out of my mouth—I said: “So children, what can we learn about how God wants us to behave?” As I said those words, the little girl—she physically slumped / her head bowed, and she slumped. I have never forgotten it, because I think that is a picture of what happens to a child when we make a story into a sermon. Because I said that question at the end of the story, I basically made that story all about her instead of pointing to Jesus. The minute we do that, we leave the child in despair; because we don't need to be told to do it better. If we could do it better, Jesus never needed to have come. The story of Daniel is there—not to tell us what we should be doing—it's to tell us: “Look, this is what God is going to do. God is going to bring someone, who is not going to be saved at the last minute, who is going to actually die to rescue us; and that's the most incredible story.” I've learned from that. 8:00 I have never forgotten it; because whenever we read a story; and then we say: “Well, what that story's about…”—whatever we put on the other side of “about” is basically what we lead the child with—that becomes the only thing the story is about. Bob: To say: “The moral of the story is…” Sally: Is the worst thing you could ever say. I'm passionate about that!—it's terrible. Bob: But don't you want kids to get it? Sally: You do; but what that does is—basically, you've decided what that story is about/ you've decided what God might want to say to that child—but what if God wants to say something completely different? It puts too much power in our hands. It would be much better to leave the story, because I believe the story is a seed—it grows when it's left alone. It may take years for us to see the fruit of it. We may not see it growing; but that's what a seed does—it grows in the dark. It's almost, I think, none of our business. If we read a good story to a child, it's between the child and the Holy Spirit what happens with that seed. 9:00 It's not that we shouldn't ask questions; it's just that I think we need to be careful not to reduce the story down into a moral lesson, because there's a place for moral lessons. But stories are so much more powerful, because they can transform your heart. A lesson doesn't usually—like a moral lesson often leaves you feeling like the little girl—she felt in despair; because it was suddenly like: “God isn't pleased with you, because you're not as brave as Daniel,”—that's what I used to think, as a child. People often say: “Well, if you can't ask, ‘What is the moral of the lesson?' what can you ask?”—because, sometimes, you need a question. I always say, “What about if you, with the child”—like it's you are on the same level with the child, as if you're kneeling together before our Heavenly Father; because we are all children before Him—“What if you read the story together?”—coming together, not as you as the teacher, but as you and the child as children of God. You listen to the story and then you go: “Wow!” and you wonder, aloud, and you say something like—say, with the story of the feeding of the 5,000—instead of saying, “Well, children, what can we learn about sharing our lunch?”— 10:00 —you say, “The boy gave Jesus everything he had. I wonder what would happen if we gave Jesus everything we have?” and you leave it open. Suddenly, that becomes completely open; and the child's imagination can soar with that. That's a question I think that's a good thing to ask; but it's not trying to teach a lesson. Bob: Part of what you do in that question is—you put the focus on what God can do— Sally: Yes! Bob: —rather than what we're supposed to do. Sally: Amen, because then there's hope. We need to give children hope; don't we? They obviously need guidance, and there's a place for teaching and rules. I just think the story time is sacrosanct. We should come together, before our Heavenly Father, and wonder together. Bob: So when you approach writing a story like, Baby Wren and the Great Gift, which is not overtly a Christian story / no Bible verses in it—do you approach that differently than when you are writing something for The Jesus Storybook Bible? 11:00 Sally: The helpful thing about The Jesus Storybook Bible is the plot‘s already worked out. [Laughter] Bob: The story's already there; yes. Sally: So with Baby Wren, I try and “be someone on whom nothing is lost.” I think Henry James said that—I may have got that wrong—“be someone on whom nothing is lost.” I'm always open; and that book—what I have learned with books is—an idea will come from anywhere; but when it comes and it hits me in a poignant way, or it makes me laugh, or does something with my heart, I've learned to listen; because I realize, “Okay; I think that's God working to show me there's something here that I need to follow.” I don't always know what the story is—but with Baby Wren and the Great Gift, the thing that struck me was—I was in Texas at Laity Lodge. There was this little wren called a canyon wren. Literally, one time, I was just hearing this huge song; and I said, “What on earth is that?” And they said: “Oh, that's the canyon wren. You never see it—it's too tiny to notice—and yet, look at its great song.” 12:00 That idea started playing in my head. I started thinking: “That's like a child. A child is only small, and they have so many insecurities; and where do they belong in the big world?”—that's where the book came from. That wasn't really me setting out with a message—it was me responding to a clue I was given and then following clues. That's how I think the books come. I trust the Lord with that; because, if the joy and redemption are at the center of my life, they are going to be in my books—I won't be able to help it. In a way, that frees me to trust the Lord—that my passion is to bless children with the truth and with hope. That can come in the form of pre-evangelistic—it can be like Emily Dickinson said, “Tell all of the truth, but tell it slant.” The thing about the story is—you're not coming at it, head on, like you are with The Jesus Storybook Bible—but even there, it's a story. Every time you tell a story, what happens is—it captures your heart. It doesn't come at you with rules and lessons; it comes around the side and it captures your heart. I just basically trust that, “If something moves me, that's something I need to listen to.” 13:00 Dennis: I think you're exhorting us, as adults, as we tell stories to kids, “Let's leave room for imagination.” Sally: Yes; that's really well-put. Dennis: Comment, if you would, on your children's book called Found. Bob: You said that's an edible book; right? Sally: Yes! It's The Jesus Storybook Bible—the edible version. [Laughter] Basically, it's a padded board book. The board book is one of those books that toddlers cannot rip. Barbara: They can chew on. Sally: They can chew on and not destroy— Dennis: Oh! Okay. Sally: —because, when you are a baby, you don't read them; you eat them. Dennis: You are going all the way through the 23rd Psalm and just unpacking it, verse by verse. Sally: Yes; it's the same version as in The Jesus Storybook Bible. We re-illustrated it—we have given it like 12 spreads, I think. If you put, individually, one line on a page and then you illustrate it, you give space to the whole psalm. Jago has done the most incredible job of—what we talk about in picture books, you have to have heart—you have to have it in the text, and you have to have it in the art. 14:00 That's an indefinable thing; but you know when you haven't got it, and you know when you get it. Dennis: Well, you've got it; because here's the—I guess, almost halfway through the book—“…even when I walk through the dark, scary, lonely places…”—there's a lonely lamb in a valley with a rainstorm. Barbara: That's my favorite spread. Dennis: It is mine too. Barbara: Because that little lamb—it's just so representative of, not just children, but all of us. Sally: Yes. Barbara: He looks so alone, and I think that just captures what we all feel that the 23rd Psalm speaks to. Sally: You know what's interesting? It's children's favorite spread, as well. Barbara: Oh, is it? Sally: They will always go there no matter how tiny they are. I think that's fascinating; because, again, we try and—it's appropriate to protect children—but we have to be sure that we are equipping them as well. Little ones know that not everything is right out there. Whether or not we're telling them, they know—so the more that you give them a safe place— 15:00 —that's why I think they love that spread, because they're looking at something scary, which they know exists; but they are doing it with you, they're doing it with the lamb, and together you're going to get through this story. It's very important that we let them look at the dark, not just the light, obviously, in an age-appropriate way; but I think that's why it's powerful to them. Dennis: Yes; and then the next page, of course, it says, “I won't be afraid, because my Shepherd knows where I am.” Sally: And he's panned out; hasn't he? He's panned out, and you see that he wasn't alone—the shepherd was running. The look on the shepherd's face—again, heart—it's just so—it's poignant to me. When I saw the illustrations, I was just blown away. Dennis: Sally, I want to ask you for a book that you've never written / a book that has never been illustrated, but it's a story that is a book in your mind that you love to tell children. Bob: Are you looking for a scoop here? You trying to get— Sally: Yes; I mean, gosh! [Laughter] Yes; I know he's trying! He's got a notebook—I can see it!—and a recorder. [Laughter] Dennis: I've already got the publisher lined up, fellas! [Laughter] 16:00 No; I just have to believe that you've got a few tucked away that you've never put on parchment—it's just a favorite of yours. I'd be interested if you wouldn't mind telling it to our audience here. Sally: Oh my; I've gone completely blank. Dennis: Have you?! Sally: Yes; performance anxiety, you see. [Laughter] I need to skip to the loo. Maybe I'll think about it. Dennis: Okay! We can come back at the end of the broadcast, and you can tell a story. Sally: Yes; okay; okay. Bob: Barbara, as you look at books and their illustrations, you recognize the power that comes. I mean, Sally's prose is beautiful prose; but let's be honest—the book, Found, is what?—maybe 40 words?—maybe 50 words?—and well-chosen words. The illustrations are what give the words a context and a texture that bring it alive. Barbara: I always looked for books for my kids that had beautiful illustrations. To me, that was as important as the story— Sally: Oh, dear; yes. Barbara: —because I loved the illustrations as much as my kids did. 17:00 It allowed the story to come alive at a level that the words couldn't do on their own— Sally: No. Barbara: —because the illustrations support it / they give it life. They make it three-dimensional. As you said, with that center spread of the rainstorm, it takes you to that place that the words alone can't do. Sally: Yes; that's true. Barbara: I just think illustrations are powerful in books. Sally: Yes! I love hearing that. I feel the same way. I also think design—you know, like the cover—so much goes into a picture book. What you said is so true; because a picture book is a story told in two languages, word and image. The best picture books are when, as a publisher of mine said: “One plus one equals more than two. Neither of them would work without each other.” Also, what you want is that it should look as if the person, who illustrated it, wrote it; and the person who wrote it, illustrated it—they should have the same voice. Barbara: They both have a message too. The words alone don't say what the pictures alone say. They work together so that the whole thing is a much greater package, as you were explaining. 18:00 And it's a gift. When you get a book like that, you feel like it's a treasure. Your anticipation is greater when you get a— Sally: It's true, because it's beautiful. Barbara: —beautiful book than [when] you just get a book. Sally: Another thing I'm passionate about is—beauty honors God— Barbara: Absolutely! Sally: —when we do something beautiful. I also think it reaches everyone—beauty calls to everyone. Our job is to be as excellent as we can be; because beauty honors Him, and it also—it just takes away the obstacles. Like I was describing with the design: “If it's really well-designed, there's no obstacle to the story.” I think my job is always to get out of the way and let the story through. If you are a good designer, get out of the way and let the story through; and if you're an illustrator... Bob: At what age do kids move beyond you? Sally: Never! I collect picture books, and I never grow out of them. They're an art form that—well, C.S. Lewis said it; didn't he?—when he dedicated— Barbara: He did! I was just thinking about his— Sally: Yes! You probably remember it better, but I can't remember exactly the words. 19:00 Barbara: I don't remember exactly how he said it either. Sally: He dedicated it to his—to Lucy—he said, “You're too old for fairy tales, but you'll grow up and become young enough,”—or something like that. Barbara: He also said something about “A book that's good for children is good for adults,”—if it's good enough for them, then it should speak to all ages. Sally: Like “There is no book that's only for children,”—is what he said—“only good for children; because, if it's not good enough for children, it's not”—something—we're really massacring this quote; aren't we?! [Laughter] Barbara: I know! That is the idea—I've always loved that quote. Bob: Have you ever had a desire to write young adult fiction?—or to write a novel? Sally: Well, sometimes, I think about that; but then I think I'm already reaching adults in the best way, by reaching children. Bob: Yes. Sally: I just love the idea that they—you know, like Found, or Baby Wren, or Song of the Stars—they're books designed to read together; and the sound of the language—C.S. Lewis, again, said, “You should write for the ear as well as the eye.” Barbara: Right. Bob: And most of the books on my bookshelf have been read once, if they've been read at all. 20:00 Sally: Isn't that the truth? There, again—you see? Bob: But children's books? Sally: Children's books— Barbara: —over and over. Bob: —books get read. I mean, we could almost recite Goodnight, Moon; can't we? Sally: Oh; I mean, it's a genius book; and it's so deceptively simple; isn't it? Bob: Yes; yes. Dennis: It is! So, I've stalled here for you. Sally: Oh, dear; you did, and I still haven't got that story. Well, I think the thing is—my stories—I may have them; but they are sort of, again, a bit like seeds. I never quite know what they are—I have to keep following them. I have lots in process but not—I don't know—if I've got one ready to tell, I usually do it— Barbara: So you have lots of ideas, but they haven't been developed yet. Sally: Yes; like picture books—I can have an idea that can sort of—I was going to say “vegetate”—that's not the right word; is it? Barbara: —germinate. [Laughter] Sally: —germinate / vegetate doesn't sound nice—germinate—thank you!—for several years. I find that's the best way; because, again, following clues—I follow clues. Sometimes—I'm working on a middle-grade novel; but I—you know, sometimes, you don't actually want to talk about the book until it's done; because, if you talk about it, you've kind of told the story and you take away the energy you need to finish it. 21:00 So, that's a good excuse; isn't it? [Laughter] Dennis: It really is! Sally: You can't say anything now. Barbara: It works; it works! Dennis: I just hope you‘ll come back, Sally: I'd love to come back; it's always so fun! Dennis: So, you just need to know—Bob is a “foodie.” So, next time you come back, bring bread crumbs and— Sally and Barbara: —figgy pudding. Dennis: —figgy pudding! Sally: Well, I might send you a figgy pudding. Bob: I'm waiting for it; yes. Sally: No; he looks like it's a threat! [Laughter] I might send it to you, and you might have to eat it on air! Bob: I will—I will eat your figgy pudding. Barbara: If you send it, we will have to taste it for sure, after all of that! Sally: Okay. Bob: Then, I'll let you know whether to send me anymore after that. [Laughter] Dennis: That's right! I will—if I eat it, and I like it—I will repent of all my—not all—but some of my comments about English food. [Laughter] Sally: I think you're just really jealous of England really; aren't you? Dennis: Oh, I do love England! Barbara: We really do love England. Dennis: I do! We had a delightful time. Sally: You're right. English food—you don't really see English food restaurants. Although, you do in New York—fish ‘n chips / Toad in the Hole! Now, I'm really confusing you! [Laughter] Dennis: No; no. I know—[Laughter] 22:00 Bob: By the way, we have none of that in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center; but we do have some of Sally's books. Dennis: Toad in the hole? We've got some of that; don't we? Bob: It's not in the FamilyLife Today Resource Center. [Laughter] You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more about the books that Sally has written for children: the Christmas story—Song of the Stars; the 23rd Psalm book called Found; and of course, The Jesus Storybook Bible. We've got all of those available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800- FL-TODAY. We've also got the resources Barbara Rainey has worked on for the holiday season for families, including her new set of Christmas tree ornaments that reflect the Eternal Names of Jesus. Find out more about those when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Or call if you have any questions: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 23:00 Now, as Dennis mentioned earlier, this is a significant time of year for this ministry. We're hoping to hear from listeners to take advantage of a matching-gift opportunity that has been made available to us. Our friend, Michelle Hill, who is the host of FamilyLife This Week, is keeping us up to date this month on all that's going on with the matching gift. Hi, Michelle! 23:21 Michelle: Hi Bob J yeah, what's happened is pretty simple…and very generous. Some friends of FamilyLife offered to match every donation in December, so yesterday…when Leona from Pennsylvania called in? Our friends matched Leona's gift, dollar for dollar! Simple! Your gifts are being matched all December, up to a total of two million dollars, and Bob? As of today, our listeners have given just over three hundred six thousand dollars…which is REALLY encouraging! Bob: It is indeed! You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. 24:00 And we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. John Stonestreet will be here to talk about how we can raise children in a culture that does not always support what we believe. Hope you can be with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 1) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 2) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 3) - Juli SlatteryFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Spiritual Component of Sexuality Guest: Juli Slattery From the series: 25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask (Day 3 of 3) Bob: Dr. Juli Slattery had been married ten years before there was a breakthrough that occurred in her marriage in the area of marital intimacy. Juli: We had many years of boredom. You know, one of the first steps I took was I dedicated three months: “Lord, I'm going to pray about this area of my life. I'm going to learn to enjoy it, and I'm going to learn to pursue it.” I got serious about saying: “God, You're not okay with where we are. I'm not okay with where we are. I'm going to devote myself to helping change that.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, October 26th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. Could it be that a season of prayer and study could actually bring about a breakthrough in your marital intimacy? We'll talk more about that with Dr. Juli Slattery today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I hope our listeners have been hanging with us here this week as we've been talking about a sensitive subject. I have to tell you—just in the conversation, there is such rightness in talking in a healthy— Dennis: Oh and it's healthy! Bob: —biblical way— Dennis: Yes! Bob: —about what God created. Dennis: If there's a radio program on—on all of radio—it ought to be a Christian radio program talking about sex from a biblical perspective. Dr. Juli Slattery has been with us this week. I just want to tell you: “You're doing a great job. Your book is excellent—25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy.” Juli—welcome back to the broadcast, first of all. I just want to ask you—you've been married since 1994 / you have three sons: “What is the most important lesson you personally have learned about love, sex, and intimacy?” Juli: That this is spiritual terrain. 2:00 It's not just a matter of good parenting or having a happy marriage—that sexuality represents a very intense spiritual battle. When I learned that, it was a total game changer in how I approached this in my marriage and parenting. Dennis: So, in essence, you're saying: “Who are you listening to? Juli: Yes; yes. Dennis: “Are you listening to the Bible and God's perspective of sex?”—because that's really the only place you're going to find it is in the Bible—or “Are you listening, watching, and feeding from what the world is?” Bob: Yes; when you're standing at the supermarket checkout line and Cosmo is there—what they're advertising on the front cover is not, “Here's how to think biblically about sexuality”; right? Juli: No; no. Bob: They're kind of compartmentalizing it to a purely biological activity that you can disassociate from every other aspect of your life. When people think that way, what happens to their sexuality? Juli: Well, and I think a lot of Christians do think that way—they think that sexuality is compartmentalized. 3:00 What happens is that you never realize that Jesus needs to be Lord of that area of your life too. In 1 Corinthians 6, it talks about the sexual, and spiritual, and the relational all being intertwined—that you can't make a sexual choice that isn't also spiritual. When you start to understand that—that this is a major battle; and if I'm not careful with even the little choices I make, I can be contributing to evil I hate. Boy, when you get that, it changes—for example, we all hate sex trafficking and sexual exploitation. We hate it / we wish it would go away. But we don't realize that our choices—for example, to look at pornography feeds into sexual exploitation and trafficking—that we have a part to play in that. Even just a cavalier attitude about casual sex—and you can hook up with whomever you want—you're contributing to the enemy's design on tarnishing sexuality. 4:00 That's really convicting. It changes the way we pray, and it changes the way we act. Dennis: I want to take a step back and just address a couple, who are listening to our broadcast, where sex has become boring. The romance is kind of out the window—it's a routine, it's a duty, it has lost its zest, and—well, whether a man or a woman, it can just be something you just “have to do” or neglect to do. Bob: Yes. Let's say somebody comes to you and says, “Okay; here's our deal…”—a couple in their 30s / they've got three kids. Both of them have full-time jobs. They would say: “You know, I guess for the last year, maybe once or twice a month we'll have sex and it is okay; but it kind of feels more like a chore. I'm honestly—I'm really okay if we just kind of let it phase out of our marriage.” There are people thinking like that; aren't there? Juli: There are; absolutely! 5:00 I would say: “First of all, you're normal. Those are normal seasons of marriage. Second of all, you might be okay with letting it fade away; but God's not okay with letting it fade away. We know that because, in 1 Corinthians 7, one of the few very specific pieces of marriage advice that we get from the Bible is: “Don't neglect sexual intimacy except for mutual consent for a time of prayer,”—that's the only reason why you should be avoiding this. Now, of course, there are health issues and things like that you may need to work through; but the spirit of it is: “This is very important for you to pursue,”—that would be the challenge of: “God would say you need to keep working on this,”—but it is normal to struggle. Bob: Even if the husband and wife kind of mutually say, “We're okay with it sliding,” you're saying: “You may be, but God's not. You need to make this a more active discipline in your marriage”? Juli: Absolutely! And the biology actually supports that. 6:00 The biology shows—now that we understand more about the brain and sexual response—that if a couple is sexually intimate on a regular basis, the hormones that are produced in the brain bond that husband and wife together—actually, in some ways / in a very healthy way—make you addicted to your spouse, where you can't wait to see them / you can't wait to be with them. You get a hormone in your body called oxytocin that makes them more pleasurable to you / like less offensive. It's the same hormone that a new mom gets when they have a baby, because you need to love that baby no matter what happens. God has created sexual intimacy, when it occurs regularly in the confines of a relationship, to be glue that continually draws a couple together. To neglect that is, not only something that God says is a bad idea, it's what scientific research is saying is a bad idea. Dennis: In your book, you talk about a couple that almost sounds like what Bob was describing—been married ten years, had three kids, and were going through a time of sexual struggle/boredom. 7:00 That couple was you and your husband. Juli: Yes. [Laughter] We had many years of boredom. One of the first steps I took was—I dedicated three months: “Lord, I'm going to pray about this area of my life. I'm going to learn to enjoy it, and I'm going to learn to pursue it,”— which was just something that God gave me and challenged me with. I'm a very goal-oriented person; and when I set my mind on doing something, I put energy into it—I save time for it; I think about it; I pray about it. That's what happened in this area of our marriage—is I got serious about saying: “God, You're not okay with where we are / I'm not okay with where we are. I'm going to devote myself to helping change that.” Dennis: Did you tell Mike you were going to do that? Juli: No; I didn't want the accountability! [Laughter] I told him after! [Laughter] Bob: So what happened in that three-month period? Juli: A lot happened! I think I could see definite changes— 8:00 Dennis: Is Mike where we can call him right now? [Laughter] Juli: He probably is. Dennis: Let's get him on the phone and find out what happened. Juli: Really? Dennis: Really! Juli: [Laughter] You are serious? Dennis: I'm serious. Juli: Okay. Bob: You good with this? Juli: Yes; sure! Bob: Alright. Juli: I don't know if he will be, but— Bob: Well— Juli: —we'll see. Bob: —we'll find out. Juli: Ask him honestly. Bob: I think our engineer, Keith, is punching up the phone number right now. [Phone ringing] Mike: Hi; this is Mike speaking. Bob: Mike Slattery. Mike: Yes. Bob: It's Bob Lepine from FamilyLife Today. I'm here with Dennis Rainey and your wife, whom I—I heard her call you “Swoo”? Is that the—is that— Mike: [Laughter] Bob: What does that stand for?—Swoo? Mike: I don't—there's not a real actual acronym or what not—it's just a song we made up, way back when, “Swee Swoo” and “Swoo” just kind of stuck after that. Bob: It just stuck—well that's nice! Dennis: So Mike, I just turned to Juli and I said, “So, you prayed about your intimacy with your husband for three months” and I asked her / I said, “So did you tell Mike?” 9:00 She said “No; I didn't want the accountability!” [Laughter] We were starting to ask her; and we thought, “No; let's just call Mike!” What did you think about what was happening, Mike? Mike: I think anytime you go back to God for anything—be it a budget, be it parenting, be it physical intimacy—you're never going to go wrong. As Christians, that's what we subscribe to—God has all the answers, and any area of our life is open to prayer with that. I think the world kind of guides us away from that, but I think that's the best thing to do. Juli has been a great example of doing that—she lives what she says. If she doesn't, she prays about it. We're very open with that communication, which has been great. Bob: When did it dawn on you this was an area that your wife was beginning to pray about this whole issue of intimacy in marriage and that God was at work? Juli: Well, if I could—maybe just tell a story to kind of prompt the memory of what was happening. This was probably a good ten years ago, before I started off thinking of Intimacy. I would have my quiet time in the evening. 10:00 As any young mom knows, the evening is your time—where you put the kids to bed; you don't want to be bothered; you have your tea; and your Bible, or books, or whatever. I would have my quiet time and just be asking God, “Would You show me how to draw closer to You and how to love You?” During that period of time—of beginning to pray about this—the Lord would begin speaking to me, ”If you want to love Me, then go up and just initiate with your husband.” There were a few times—and it's become more frequent now— Mike: Exactly; yes. Juli: —where I'll be doing my quiet time, whether it's in the morning or the evening—and that's the word that the Lord will give me—is: “This is a way that you honor Me.” Mike: Yes; basically, I remember when there was one time where Jules was—in her routine, typically on Saturday—Juli would get up, she'll go down and do her quiet time—kind of her normal routine, Monday through Sunday—she'll do that. 11:00 If it's like on a weekend, when I'm not going to work or jumping to the gym, I'll kind of stay in bed and kind of let her do her—that's her time with God. I never want to encroach on that. There was a time, where I was praying about it—and I just doing my quiet time, and she was doing her quiet time. We were both praying about the same thing. Then Juli came up, and we would kind of share that together—like: “Were you praying about this?” and “I was praying about this,” “I think God heard us.” [Laughter] So that was really—that was very special. Bob: You're a good sport, Mike. Thanks for letting us interrupt your day and just authenticate what your wife has been sharing with us here. Mike: I appreciate it. Thank you, guys, for getting the message out, because Juli's been doing this for the last several years. When she was at Focus—and initially, when God was pulling her away, we prayed about it. I said, “As long as you're sure this is what God wants you to do, I'm 100 percent behind you.” It's been a great journey. The main thing is we're all used by God. Dennis: I appreciate your courage too. The easiest thing to do is nothing. Mike: Sure. Dennis: The easiest thing to say, if you're a very private person, is nothing. Mike: Yes. 12:00 Dennis: And in the process, there's a lot of folks, again, who have received some help and hope as a result of you guys being honest about your own marriage. Pray God's favor on you in your pursuit in your vocation but also in your family. Mike: Thank you so much. I truly appreciate it. God bless. God bless all of you. Bob: You want to say, “Goodbye,” to your husband? Juli: I love you Hon. Thanks for being a good sport. Mike: Okay; I love you Baby-doll. Look forward to seeing you tonight baby; alright. Juli: Me too; bye. Mike: Bye-bye. Dennis: [Laughter] I wish they could see Juli's grin, Bob. Bob: I think they could hear Juli's grin—[Laughter] —as she said, “Goodbye,” to her husband. You've been married how many years? Juli: Twenty-two years. Bob: And you're looking forward to seeing him tonight? Juli: Yes; of course, I am—he's my best friend. Bob: If your marriage had been on the trajectory / if it had remained on the trajectory that it was on—if you hadn't, ten/twelve years ago, had this kind of three months before the Lord, where do you think you'd be today? 13:00 Juli: Not where we are; because I had all the education I needed, as a clinical psychologist. I worked with couples on marriage issues and sexual issues but never really understood the power of inviting God, and the power of bringing sexuality under His Lordship, because I'd never heard that before. When you invite God into any sphere of your life, He's going to confront you on things that are difficult—yes—but He's / but He's going to provide hope and healing in ways that you didn't know you needed. Dennis: You're a clinical psychologist. I'd like you to give your best counsel to men about understanding their wives. Juli: I guess the analogy that I like to use regarding sexuality—and this is because I'm a mom of three boys—is I like to talk about Legos®. If you, on your honeymoon—you think you're going to open up this great gift that's going to be complete—you'll be really disappointed. And that's the truth with Legos. 14:00 If you go to the store and buy a package of Legos, and you see this beautiful thing on the outside—this cool Bat mobile or whatever it is—and you open it up, you're disappointed. I would encourage men that God has given you a gift of building something together that, at first, isn't going to make any sense; but that's part of the design—that He's challenging you to learn to love, and to build, and to sacrifice. Your wife may take years/ I'm going to say your wife may take decades to really understand sexually, and emotionally, and spiritually. She does not understand herself. But God's challenge to you is to: “Continue to build; continue to pursue; ask God for wisdom—have a sensitive heart.” This is the other thing I think we pass right over—in Ephesians, Chapter 5, Paul writes specifically to husbands. He says to “…love your wives as Christ loved the church and laid Himself down for her.” Then it says that “He washed the church with the word, presenting her as a spotless bride.” 15:00 Part of what Paul is saying to you, as a husband, is: “Are you protecting the purity of your wife so that you can present her as a spotless bride?” Don't bring anything into your mind or your bedroom that would defile your wife. Make that a safe place, emotionally and spiritually. Dennis: I would add one other thing too: “If you think you're going to trade in this box of Legos for a better box, that's all put together perfectly—it's a lie. Juli: Yes. Dennis: “It's a lie. The box God has given you is the one you need to keep your covenant with / keep building into and stay the course. Don't quit.” Okay; Juli—now, I want you to take the women underneath your arm and just counsel them. What would you say to them about their relationship with their husband? Juli: Well, I would say, “Don't underestimate the power of sexuality,”— 16:00 —that so often we think of power as a bad thing—but I see that God has given a wife, naturally, tremendous power in marriage around the issue of her body and sexuality. Because we're not always open and honest about that being a powerful tool that God has given, we don't use that power well—we either neglect it; we don't prioritize it; or we use it in a manipulative way. If you can say: “Oh man, God has given me a place of power in my husband's life that I'm jealous of—I don't want any other woman on the planet to have this power with my husband. I want to learn to use it effectively to capture his heart / to share something with him that no one else gets to share with him.” That's going to take work to pursue; and I've shared in my own testimony how it has taken work, but it is so worth it. Bob: I want to ask you about that power—because we've seen husbands and wives get pulled outside of the marriage covenant; because another woman uses that power with a married man, or because a married man pursues a married woman. 17:00 When a couple takes sexuality outside of their marriage—when they give up on what ought to be going on at home or when they just supplement it with an affair—what's really going on in the heart of the husband or the heart of the wife in pursuing that infidelity in the first place? Juli: There can be lots of things going on, but I think a profound thing is—they've never really understood, in the concept of covenant, that sexuality is all about covenant. The reason that God says it's reserved for marriage is because there's this lifelong promise or covenant. If you take it outside of that, you're destroying something so spiritual and special, that recovering from that is tremendously difficult. First, there's that discounting of the covenant—but also, pretty much with every situation where there's an emotional or sexual affair, you can kind of do the forensic on that relationship. The couple can begin to tell you, “This is when we started drifting apart,”— 18:00 —whether it was when she got busy with the kids, or she put on weight and didn't feel sexy anymore, or he got so pulled into his career that he stopped spending time with her. I know you two work on marriages so much that you've seen this—that affairs don't begin with that relationship of being sexually unfaithful—they begin when you get seeds planted in your mind that: “Someone else can love me more than this person loves me.” Dennis: It's an emotional connection— Juli: Absolutely. Dennis: —not a physical connection—but it grows into that. Juli: Yes. Dennis: I think what / what our listeners need to know that: “If your relationship is teetering toward an emotional affair, the advice is: ‘You've got to extinguish the chemical reaction now. You've got to take the number out of your cell phone; you've got to completely sever the relationship—if it means changing places of work because of the temptation— 19:00 —you have to protect your marriage, and your family, your children, your legacy.' This is really, really important what we're talking about here.” I so agree with your advice: “Protect your covenant at all costs.” Bob: I think you made a good point. You might just pull back and analyze, “What is it that I'm most attracted to here?” because that will help you identify what's been lacking—some longing that's an unmet longing—that was designed for marriage that may not be happening in marriage. Then sit down with your husband or your wife and say: “You know, there's an area in my heart that I've just felt lonely in,” or “…I felt lacking,” “….an area where we can—can we work on this together, and can we try to grow this together?”—rather than saying: “I'm just going to go find it somewhere else.” It is poisoned fruit outside the marriage covenant. 20:00 The other thing I encourage you to do is—just honestly ask the Lord—and even to share with a mentor and ask, “What lies am I believing?” because the enemy works in lies. Dennis: That's right. Juli: He will convince you that you're going to be happier with someone else, or some other guy is going to understand you more than your husband does, or that God can't rekindle and restore your relationship with your husband or your wife. You need to confront those lies with truth. Dennis: You're not going to trade in this box of Legos and find another box that's perfectly put together, exactly the way you want it. You're still going to be dealing with your selfishness. Juli: Yes. Dennis: You're going to be dealing with another person's selfishness; and then, you're going to be dealing with the debris of a broken marriage / a broken family. That's not a recipe for success in marriage, family, or in life. Juli, I just want you to know I'm really proud of you for stepping out in faith and beginning this new ministry called Authentic Intimacy. 21:00 I know that you didn't have to go try this / go do this, but I think it's a much needed area in our country. I hope that our listeners will get a copy of your book. I hope they'll use it to talk with their sons/their daughters—whether they are still yet at home or as adult children—about this important area and dimension of the marriage relationship. Bob: Yes; some of them are going to want to subscribe to your podcast, and they can do that. In fact, we've got instructions on our website if you want to find out more about what Juli is doing with the Java with Juli podcast—you can download it. There's information available when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Dennis: And in case you didn't notice, it's the Java with Juli with a little mocha, a little chocolate, and a little whipped cream. [Laughter] There's some spice— Bob: Hazelnut—there's some hazelnut in there. Dennis: We'll stop right there! [Laughter] Bob: Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and you can download the podcast. You can also order a copy of Juli's book, 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy. 22:00 Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Or you can order the book when you call us, toll free, at 1-800-FL-TODAY—1-800-358-6329. We mentioned this last week—we've had a lot of our listeners who have started using the ten family devotions that we've put together that are available on the FamilyLife app on your smartphone or your device. These devotions are designed to help us, as families, keep our hearts and minds focused on Christ in the middle of what can be unstable times. You can find the devotions if you have the FamilyLife app on your smartphone or device—just pull it up and click where it says, “Help and Hope.” Or you can download the devotions as a pdf document from our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. We hope you'll do that; and you'll find the devotions helpful as you shepherd your family and seek to keep your eyes fixed on the One, who is the author and finisher of our faith. 23:00 We've got a couple of couples who are celebrating anniversaries today. First, Ralph and Jean Carlson, who live in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, and who listen to KTIS—42 years of marriage today. Then in Columbus, Ohio, Brian and Michele Livingston—they listen to WRFD, and they've been married six years today. We've been celebrating anniversaries all this year because 2016 is FamilyLife's 40th anniversary. We thought the best way to celebrate 40 years of ministry is to just reflect on all of the marriages that are still together, in part, because of how God has used FamilyLife in the lives of so many couples who listen to this program. If you can make a donation today, we'd love to say, “Thank you,” by sending you a banner that Barbara Rainey has created for the home that declares your home as an embassy of the kingdom of heaven. 24:00 It's our thank-you gift when you make a donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can request the banner when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate or when you mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, our friend, Steven Curtis Chapman's, going to stop by. We're going to visit with him. Hope you can be here for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Life Aboard the Space Station Guest: Barry Wilmore From the series: Life Aboard the Space Station (Day 1 of 1) Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. This could get a little tricky today. I'm not sure— Houston: Hello, this is Houston Comm Tech. Dennis: This is Dennis Rainey with FamilyLife Today. Bob: And Bob Lepine. Houston, can you hear us? Houston: I hear you very low. Bob: Low? Not loud and clear? Houston: Okay, you're coming in a little bit louder. Please standby. Bob: Do I need to say, “Over”? Houston: Okay, this is Comm Tech with a second voice-take on private three; now copy. Bob: Hi, Comm Tech. How's the sound now? Better? Houston: Sounds better. Please stand by for a moment. Bob: Okay. Dennis: Alright. Bob: I'm getting the sense that you don't make jokes with Houston Comm Tech or anybody else in Houston. Dennis: Well, we're speaking to NASA. Bob: They are a little focused on the mission. Dennis: And folks, this is not a joke. That really is— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —Houston NASA Control Center. Bob: And here is the thing. Some of our listeners recognize that, back last fall, we had the opportunity to have a conversation with Captain Barry Wilmore and his wife Deanna just before Barry blasted off from a launch pad in Russia— 1:00 Dennis: A Soyuz rocket. Bob: —going up to take command of the International Space Station, which is where he is today. Dennis: And we also recorded, without Deanna knowing, a 20th Anniversary greeting. Bob: Yes, Barry called us from the space station, back in early December—December 3rd was their anniversary— Dennis: Right. Bob: —their 20th Anniversary. We had him, at the end of the program, sharing anniversary greetings. Dennis: And he sent me an email, after that happened, and said: “Dennis, thank you for allowing me to do that. My daughter actually took a video.” I don't know how they do this, Bob—but they showed the video back to him on the space station. He is in the International Space Station, right now. He had a conversation—and he said, “My daughter showed my wife weeping— Bob: As she listened? Dennis: —“as she listened to my 20th Anniversary greetings.” Bob: And we're trying to work things out now. I think this is going to work, where Houston is setting us up so that we can talk to Captain Wilmore— 2:00 Dennis: —on the International Space Station. Bob: Right. Dennis: He— Barry: FamilyLife Today, hello. Hello, from the International Space Station. You guys out there? Bob: Unbelievable! Is it really you? Barry: Hi, Bob! Hi, Dennis! Bob: And how many bars do you have on your phone right now? [Laughter] Barry: Hopefully, enough! Dennis: Amazing! Bob: It is amazing that we're talking to you! Barry: Well, thank you all for your program—it's fabulous. Dennis: Would you mind looking out your window and telling us what you're seeing right now? Barry: If I'm not mistaken—I didn't look at a map—but if I'm not mistaken, based on what I've seen, I believe that's Australia going by below me. Bob: Wow! [Laughter] Dennis: Well, Butch, you're looking at the earth as few men or women ever get a chance to see it. What's a unique perspective you've had, just from outer space? This is your second time to be in orbit. Any thoughts come to your mind as you glance at the globe of six billion people? Barry: Very interesting question. You know, when I was here before—when I flew five years ago— 3:00 —it was a shuttle mission. Shuttle missions were fast and furious—it was 11 days. I think the most time I ever had to stick my nose in the window was about 20 minutes. That really wasn't long enough—it was wonderful—don't get me wrong. But now, to have the opportunity to really, no kidding, poke my nose in the window for very extended periods of time, it's truly amazing and truly breathtaking. It makes me in awe of my Lord and Savior and Creator—I mean—beyond words. I can't explain—you can't explain the view. You can't—I mean, you can see pictures / you can see video—and they do a little bit to show what the beauty of the earth and the globe is from here; but to see it with your own eyes and realize that it's controlled by a sovereign God—like I said, it's beyond words. Bob: Tell us what a day is like onboard the Space Station. First of all, what time zone are you in? Barry: Yes, we work under GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, which is the same time as London. Before I answer that question— 4:00 —let me say that / I want it to be clear—it is an amazing place, and it's an amazing view. It is an amazing thing to be here. I wake up every morning, and I float down the tube. I'm like: “Lord, I can't believe I'm here. This is just amazing! It's thrilling.” But I did not need to come here to know my Lord / to know my God. I mean—all that I could ever know / could ever want to know—I gleaned from the Words of Scripture. So, I didn't have to come here to find my Lord. He's in the Word—that's where He resides—and that's where He speaks to us from. Okay, again, your question? Bob: Just tell me about what a day is like for you onboard the space station. Barry: Well, the days are pretty busy as you would imagine. I'm kind of a morning guy—I get up early. I get up around 4:30 or 5:00. We're not required, but it's very highly encouraged that we work out a great deal. We get about two and half hours a day scheduled to work out—we have resistance exercise. So, that's how I start my day. 5:00 The resistance exercise machine is actually positioned right below the main window, which is called the cupola in the Space Station. I can lay there and do my work-out and see the beauty of the world go by. For instance, just this very morning, I'm working out—I look up, and there goes the nation of Israel by the window. It's the first time since I've been here that we've flown directly over the top. It was wonderful to look down and see the—from that vantage point—to see the places where our Lord walked when He was on earth—so, it was great. Anyway, that's the way my day starts. Then, of course, the rest of it begins. It's a busy, busy place with a lot of various things going on—science, working payloads, plant seedling growth or crystal growth, working with the fish—we had fish up here. Some of them went back when the last Soyuz went back—and experiments with those. And the list goes on, and on, and on—combustion science. I mean—and that's just one day. 6:00 Then, there'll be things that will break; and we'll have to fix—that's ongoing. Of course, we have to do a spacewalk. We go out and do some things outside—that was amazing as well. So, the variety, and the opportunity, and the things that we do is varied—it's really neat. Bob: I'm just curious if they still have Tang® onboard the Space Station—you know—because I grew up—it was all about astronauts and Tang. Do you even know what I'm talking about? Barry: I know exactly what you're talking about—I sure do! I don't know that it's made by people that make Tang, but it's like that—it's a powdered drink. That's all we have, basically. It's in little pouches, and we put water in it—it fires it up. It's quite tasty—I enjoy it in various flavors. Bob: So, breakfast, or lunch, or dinner—what are your meals like onboard the Space Station? Barry: The food is prepared a little differently—so, it does give it a different taste—and we're big on condiments here. [Laughter] Condiments are huge! So, you can make anything taste decent with the right amount of condiments. [Laughter] But you know, breakfast— 7:00 —eggs, sausage links, and patties. I mean, we've got those that we rehydrate. We've got soups. We don't have salads; but we have soups, and vegetables, and meats—a varied variety of those. It's really good—I enjoy the food. Then, again, I'm not a good guy to ask if food is good because, when I was on deployment on the aircraft carrier, I even liked ship food. There are not many people that like ship food. [Laughter] Dennis: Other than your family, what do you miss most while being in outer space? Barry: There is only one thing that I miss. I'll tell you what it is and I'll tell you why I don't miss anything else. It is because it is such a unique place. To pine for something that I can't have—like a hamburger, or French fries, or something like that—there's no reason for that because everything else just overwhelms that. The one thing that I don't have here—that I not only want but I need—is church. The Lord gave us His church. He gave it to us because He knew that we needed it. 8:00 We need it for our encouragement, for learning / obviously, for worship—admonishment at times. That's the one thing that I can't have here. I try to supplement that. I have messages from my home church that are sent to me weekly—and I listen to those—but it's not the same as being there and the fellowship with the body. That's the one thing that I do miss. Bob: And you'd include FamilyLife Today in there as well; right? Barry: Absolutely! [Laughter] Absolutely. Dennis: Butch, I emailed you this morning. I just wonder, “How long does it take for my email to get to you?” Barry: Now, that's varied as well. Sometimes, it gets here immediately. At other times, it takes days. It gets stuck in a hopper somewhere, and it won't get here for a couple of days. So, it's varied. Mostly, it's pretty good though. Bob: What can you tell us about the rest of the crew—the guys you are working with? Barry: Well, my Russian crewmates—that I launched in the Soyuz with—will be here the whole six months together. Alexander Samokutyaev is a military pilot from the Russian Air Force, and Elena Serova is a female engineer that was selected as a cosmonaut several years ago. 9:00 It's a great group of people to be around. We've trained a lot on earth together; and being with them here is fabulous as well. Dennis: Do you speak Russian? Barry: You know, I jokingly say, “I speak two languages fluently, and one I speak a little bit.” I speak English, and I speak Tennessee. Then, I know a little bit of Russian. [Laughter] Bob: But in that kind of environment—where you are living together / you're working together—I mean, you don't have anybody else to talk to other than your comrades onboard the Space Station and your comm link back to Houston. Relationships—maintaining healthy relationships—that's got to be a part of the mission; isn't it? Barry: It is. One of the things that is good—again, that NASA does well is / like you mentioned—email. I've got friends and relationships that I've built over the years. Being able to maintain contact with those individuals via email is really—it's wonderful. 10:00 There is also—you know, I was able to send out and have 300 or so people on a friends and family website. They put some stuff on the website—like the spacewalk I did, and pictures, and whatnot. I've typed up a few things that go to that website to maintain contact with them. The people who are able to access that website can also send me messages. So, that's very helpful. Dennis: One of the things that I did a little a research on is the massive number of people that form the NASA team—that, ultimately, slings you guys into outer space and cares for your well-being while you are out there. I'd just be fascinated to hear your thoughts about teamwork and lessons you've learned that are, literally, out of this world. Barry: Oh, you are right. You can't—we can't have success in just about anything in life without teamwork. That's certainly the case here on the International Space Station. Yes, we're the bodies that get to climb into the rocket, and they launch, and come up here and do these wonderful things in a wonderful environment— 11:00 —it's true—but these experiments, these payloads, these procedures that I run daily—they don't exist without the team. The things that we're doing / the things that we're accomplishing up here do not happen without the team. I'm just, honestly, a small part of the team when it comes to a lot of the things that I do. There's a mountain of people that put their passion and their life's work into much of the things that I work on here. You know, some of the experiments—there are individuals that—this is literally—literally—some of them, it's their life's work—things that they've been working on for decades—and here it is in my hands. I take that seriously, and it's a great amount of responsibility. You know, I appreciate them for what they do—the effort they've put into jobs to make some things easier for me. I'm sure they appreciate the things that we do as well. It doesn't exist without that cohesiveness, like you mentioned. Dennis: You need to know we have a ton of young folks who listen, dreaming dreams/aspirations for their own lives. 12:00 Have you got something you'd like to say to them about what they need to be cultivating as they grow up and, hopefully, put some feet to their dreams? Barry: One thing that comes to mind is—for me, anyway—the parable of the talents. The lord gave some more than others, but there was a certain expectation for whatever they were given. I think that, as we live our life, that we need to realize that wherever we are / whatever we are doing, we exist for His glory—that's why we're here. With whatever He's given us, we need to maximize and do the best we can with that for His glory. Do what you are passionate about / do what you love—and remember that you do everything you do for His glory. Bob: Sometimes, things don't go according to plan. I know you all were expecting a supply delivery—that there was a little bit of a hitch. Can you tell us what happened and how you've had to adjust, as a result? 13:00 Barry: Yes, there was a mishap with a launch vehicle that was bringing cargo to us. For me, personally, there have been minor adjustments. The reason—and we've talked about it just a second ago—is the team. The team on the ground that works all of those issues have worked feverishly to make sure that we have everything that we need. They planned ahead so we'd have a stockpile of things that we wouldn't be put in a bind on anything. There is only one or two items that were even just slightly short on because the team has been working and doing their jobs. And the team—as soon as it happened—they were at work, getting ready and planning and seeing how we go forward from there. Bob: Were you anxious at all when you got the news that the supply vehicle had been damaged? Barry: We were actually watching it, live, as it launched; and we saw what had happened. You know, our first thoughts, like anything—it's a clear range, and there is nobody there—but you still—there is always a chance that something will go astray. Your first thought is, “Could anybody have been injured?” 14:00 Of course, thankfully, that wasn't the case. When there is no individual harm that takes place—cargo and stuff—you can replace all of that. In that light, it's minor. Dennis: Butch, I want you to give our listeners an idea of how big this thing is that you are screaming around the earth in. Barry: Total size—if you think about two football fields—it's about as long as a football field and about as wide as a football field. The structure inside—they say that the size and the volume is like five buses that you would connect together. We have various modules, and I can tell you it is wide open space—it's not like the capsule I launched in. The Soyuz capsule is very small. The shuttle, with respect to the Space Station—the living space in that was fairly small—but this is huge / it's wide open. And you're right—flying around—even inside here, weightlessly, is such a kick. It is really, really amazing. As a matter of fact, I just flipped around and am standing on the ceiling now— 15:00 —or what we call the ceiling because there really is no up and down. [Laughter] Now, I'm standing on the bulkhead—on the wall. [Laughter] Dennis: There are some kids, right now, going, “Oh, could I go up there and join him for that?!” So, have you ever spilled anything up there? Barry: It's great to watch water droplets and whatnot—so, yes, I spill it often, intentionally, because it's neat to watch. [Laughter] Bob: I would like to be weightless just for a day. Dennis: I could use some weightlessness. Captain Wilmore, you have done a number of deployments in your service for the Navy. You have any coaching for dads who travel a lot? Maybe, they don't go to outer space, but they're gone three or four days a week or a good number of days throughout the month—any coaching for them about caring for their wives and their children in the midst of that? Barry: I think the thing that I would say from my standpoint—and what I've tried to do myself—is always think about biblical principles—you know, raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and teach them God's Word. 16:00 That's what I do with my daughters, and that's what my wife and I do together. I think a big part of that is preparing, especially when the children are younger—I've got a seven-year-old and a ten-year-old. We did a great deal of preparation for this separation time—discussing it and talking about it. My number one message to my daughters, and I even say it when I call them now, is: “Help Mommy.” We also—my wife homeschools—so, the follow-up slogan to that is: “Help your teacher. The principal may be out of town for a while, but he's coming back!” [Laughter] Dennis: So, that's a setup. Do you want to say anything to those girls of yours?—any words from Daddy to a daughter? I know you get to talk to them too, but here is a chance to both brag on them and exhort them with a few hundred thousand, if not a million, listeners across the country. 17:00 Barry: Yes, both of my daughters are taking piano lessons—my youngest just started. I want you to know, girls—Darren and Logan—Daddy loves—loves—to hear you play the piano. I thank you when you practice, and I thank you when you play over the phone so I can even hear you from here—so, thank you for that. I want you to know that Daddy is very proud of both of you. And I, also, want you to know that the slogan is the same in this message too: “Help Mommy / help your teacher.” [Laughter] Dennis: Well said by a dad. Way to go! Is there a question you'd like to be asked that's a favorite question for you to answer? Barry: I think, you know, it's less about me / more about my Lord is where I would try to orient any question: “What drives you?”—maybe. What really, truly drives me is my desire to live according to what the Lord has laid out in His Word that we should do— 18:00 —and to glorify Him—and that's the main driver. So, that would be the question: “What drives you?” and that's the answer. Bob: You have time in your schedule to include spiritual disciplines and to keep your spiritual self in shape; right? Barry: Absolutely; yes, sir. Bob: So, what are you doing in space—I know you have an opportunity to read your Bible, and you mentioned reviewing messages from church. Anything else that you are doing to just stay connected to Christ? Barry: The Lord gave me something a few years ago that I have been continuing. It wasn't something I set out to do—it just kind of happened—and that is that I started sending out a devotion to just a couple of people daily / every single day. Over the years, the Lord grew that distribution list. I don't know how many people are on it now—I haven't counted—it's probably 70 or so different emails that I send out. So, I do that every day—preparing the devotion to send out to those 70 individuals. 19:00 Also, I have it posted on my friends and family website. So that, right there, is something that the Lord has given me to keep me in His Word, and keep me studying, and keep me growing—and for that, I am grateful. Dennis: I just want our listeners to think about where Butch is right now because he's looking at how this verse is really spelled out—Psalm 8: O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth. You have set Your glory above the heavens! When I look at the heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place; what is man, that You are mindful of him and the son of man that You care for him? Yet, you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor! You have given him dominion over the works of Your hands and have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen, 20:00 and the beasts of the fields, and the birds of the heaven, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the sea. O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!” Barry: I can tell you from this vantage point, “majestic,” indeed—praise Him. Bob: Butch, let me ask you one more question. How often does the sun come up during the day, and how often does it go down during the day for you? Barry: Oh, there is another blessing! The sunrises and sunsets here are just amazing. The Space Station—the whole station for about six to ten seconds turns completely orange as it goes through—as the light passes through the atmosphere. It kind of acts as a prism and separates the colors. I get 16 of those a day—fantastic! Bob: So, is it almost bedtime for you now? Barry: It actually—it is. I'm going to grab me a quick little bite to eat; and then, I'm going to hit the rack. [Laughter] Dennis: Well, Butch, thanks for joining us on FamilyLife Today. Just want you to know it's no excuse that you can't listen to the broadcast up there. You should have figured that out in advance, but we'll forgive you for that; okay? 21:00 Barry: I appreciate that—[Laughter]—next time—next time! Bob: Well, we're thrilled to be able to talk to you. Folks are praying for you, and we're going to keep praying for you. Excited to hear that the mission is going well. Barry: Thank you very much, and I appreciate that as well. Praise Him. Thank you. Bob: You know, it occurs to me—that when Butch lands—and I just checked with Keith—it's not a splashdown. It's not a landing like an airplane. It's an earthbound landing and a recovery. What did you call it—the Soyuz—what? Keith: They land from a Soyuz recovery capsule, and they land on the ground in the steppes of Russia. Bob: Wow! Keith knows these things. [Laughter] When that happens—after he and his wife have had a chance to kind of get acquainted with one another again—we need to get them to one of our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways for a little refresher. Dennis: Yes. Bob: When you've been gone for several months, it's good to have a little getaway weekend together and to hear, again, God's design for the marriage relationship. 22:00 Of course, you and I are going to be speaking at Weekend to Remember getaways next weekend. You're going to be in Hershey, Pennsylvania. I'm going to be in Colorado Springs. Dennis: Yes. Bob: We've got another four or five getaways happening next weekend—Valentine's weekend. Then, throughout the spring, there are Weekend to Remember marriage getaways happening in cities, all across the country. If you and your spouse have never been, you don't have to go to outer space in order to qualify to attend a Weekend to Remember. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and sign up to attend an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—get more information about when one of these getaways is coming to a city near where you live. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and mention that you'd like to attend a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. We can answer any questions you have—let you know about dates and locations. But we hope you'll make plans to invest in your marriage, whether you've been apart for a while or whether you see each other, day-in and day-out. This kind of getaway is great preventative maintenance for every marriage relationship. 23:00 Again, learn more at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link at the top of the page that says, “GO DEEPER.” You'll find information about the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway there. Or call 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY,”—ask about the Weekend to Remember. One final note before we're done. Next week is National Marriage Week. We're going to be celebrating all week long with some special things going on social media. If you are not a friend of ours on our Facebook® page or if you don't follow us on Twitter®, let me encourage you to sign up so that you can be in the loop for all that we've got going on next week—some fun stuff, some helpful things, and some ideas for Valentine's Day. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and scroll all the way down to the very bottom of the page. You'll see the links there for Facebook and Twitter—you can sign up that way. Or, if you're in the know, just go to Facebook and Twitter—follow us @FamilyLifeToday—that's our Twitter handle. 24:00 Or you can click, “Like,” on our FamilyLife Today Facebook page and join us that way. And with that, we've got to wrap things up. Thanks for being with us today. Hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday when we're going to begin a weeklong look at the Song of Solomon and what that book has to say about marriage, and romance, and dating, and intimacy. We're going to hear messages from Pastor Matt Chandler next week. So, hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with help today from Tom Thompson. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. 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Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 1) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 2) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 3) - Rosaria ButterfieldFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What Is Hospitality? Guest: Rosaria ButterfieldFrom the series: Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Day 2 of 3) Bob: Rosaria Butterfield was a committed feminist and a lesbian when a local pastor and his wife invited her over for dinner. What she found in that dinner, and as she started attending his church, was that her caricature of Christians and Christianity was off the mark. Rosaria: I did not meet Christians who shared a narrowly-bounded, priggish world view. That is not what I met. I met people who could talk openly about sexuality and politics and did not drop down dead in the process. Ken Smith made it so clear to me that he could accept me right where I was—that there is a difference between acceptance and approval. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, September 17th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear today how a Presbyterian pastor was used by God to share the Gospel with a lesbian college professor and about the remarkable transformation that God did in her life. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You know, if we were going to sit down in our communities and think where might there be a fertile mission field—people who would be open to hearing the message of the Gospel—I don't think we would think, “Well, I bet the queer studies program, down at the university—I bet they are dying for somebody to come in and share about Jesus with them.” You know? Dennis: I wouldn't think so. Bob: But the story we're hearing this week is the story of an unlikely convert. At least, that's what it says on the front of this book. Dennis: That's right. Rosaria Butterfield joins us, again, on FamilyLife Today. Rosaria—welcome back. Rosaria: Thank you so much. I am delighted to be here. Dennis: I want you to unpack what Bob just said because some of our listeners are going: “Wait a second! Did Bob just use the word, ‘queer'?” Rosaria: He did. He did. Dennis: And before we came into the studio— Rosaria: Right. We talked about it. Dennis: —I asked you about this. I think a lot of our listeners would— Rosaria: Sure. Dennis: —like to know what the background is. Let me just introduce you, though, before you answer my question. Rosaria has been married to her husband, Kent, since 2001. They have four children. She is a former English professor at Syracuse University. She has written a book called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. Bob: And did I say something wrong when I said, “queer”? Rosaria: You did not! No, you did not. Gay and lesbian studies started as a way of understanding the lives and appreciating the contributions made by gay men and lesbian women—but in a context of post-modernism and post-structuralism, even the—what we call normative gender of that statement—men, women—even the normative gender of that statement has become what we call contested or something that is only fixed in the eyes of a culture, not in the hearts of people. So, Queer Theory is the academic manifestation of the post-modern and post-structural world views as it applies to a person's sexuality. Bob: So, in 1997, studying—advancing Queer Theory—as a tenured professor at Syracuse— Rosaria: Well, I was tenured in '98— Bob: Okay. Rosaria: —but you know. Bob: And you're in a lesbian relationship, at the time. Rosaria: Absolutely. Bob: You write an editorial in the Syracuse newspaper, talking about these patriarchs who are coming to Syracuse—the Promise Keepers group: “No way should we let them near the campus.” Rosaria: Right. Bob: You get hate mail, and you get fan mail, and you get one letter from a pastor who says, “Let's talk.” Rosaria: Right. Bob: And that conversation—the beginning of that conversation put you on an unexpected path. Rosaria: Yes, it did; absolutely; absolutely. My husband's name is Kent. Kent is the pastor of the First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham. He just finished a series on hospitality—a preaching series. It was really interesting for me to sit—many, many years later—and remember that hospitality does not mean fellowship. Hospitality means bringing the stranger in. More than that, it means going to the gate, and getting the stranger, and bringing him or her in. I think, sometimes, Christians think we're practicing hospitality when we have our homeschool friends from church over for lunch. Well, that's fellowship, and that's very good; but it's not hospitality. Dennis: You mentioned that the gay and lesbian community was good at this. Rosaria: Very good at this. So, every Thursday night, my partner and I would open our home to anybody in the gay and lesbian community who wanted to just come in, and talk to us, and tell us what is going on. I tell pastors—you know: “Hints from Eloise.” Bob: “It's a good strategy here.” Rosaria: “It's a good strategy—just open it up—don't call it a Bible study. Call it a—just whatever—and just find out who your people are.” Dennis: Give us some idea of who would come over to your house when you and your partner invited. Rosaria: Well, I lived—first of all, we are not—I think people don't understand, sometimes—that, at a university, and especially, where I was coming from—the gay and lesbian community was highly-respected, and valued, and appreciated. So, it could be anyone. You know, graduate students, or faculty members, or neighbors. We might talk about some environmental issue. We might talk about, “So and So's dog needs to be put to sleep, and we should do something,”—you know, it was simply a day to catch up and know how to be hand-on-hand with one another. Bob: And the people coming might be gay or might be straight. They—the— Rosaria: Oh, yes. Bob: There's a diversity of folks. Rosaria: Oh, yes! Thank you for mentioning that. The gay and lesbian community is a diverse community; absolutely! So, we didn't all have one journey into the community, and we didn't have one story; but a very special person, who was there every, every time because she was my dear, dear friend—was a transgendered woman—and I call her “Jay” in the book. Bob: And Jay, when you say a transgendered woman, she is born anatomically male— Rosaria: Right. And is— Bob: —identified more as a female, began a process that starts with hormonal therapy and ultimately ends in surgery. Rosaria: Well, it may ultimately end in surgery. Surgery is very expensive. So, at my season, when Jay and I were very good friends, Jay is what we would call chemically-castrated. Bob: You use the female pronoun when you refer to Jay. Why do you do that? Rosaria: I do. I do. In fact, I was asked, recently, at a biblical counseling conference why I do that—because I respect the fact that when I am meeting people—I would do that today, as a Christian, by the way—this was not—some of the things I did back, then, I wouldn't necessarily do today, but I would do this today— Dennis: Right. Rosaria: —because you have to meet and respect people where they are. And hospitality is—I believe it is God's ordained path for evangelism. In First Corinthians—when God tells us that no temptation will befall you except for that which He will provide a way of escape—I want all of our Christian listeners to know that, from the bottom of my heart, I believe that your home and your church is a way of escape for somebody—for somebody like me or not like me, but for somebody—somebody that God has called. But if your door is closed or if you can't get over yourself—and maybe I can talk a little bit about this—you know that we pray, “Lord, may there be more of You and less of me.” We, as Christians, pray for a relinquished life. If that is so, then, our churches and our homes are the way of escape—but that has not historically been the truth; right? Dennis: Right. We've had a lot of judgmental walls and bars— Rosaria: Right; right. Dennis: —on our homes instead of doors, at that point. Rosaria: That's right. You know, I think it's a good question. I'm sure that there are people listening saying: “But I thought she had small children! What is she saying?” and, “Where do we draw the line?” There are lines to draw. I'm not suggesting that you should be careless, but I am suggesting that we should examine some things. Probably, the most important thing to examine is: “Who is Jesus?” and, “Is grace sufficient?” and, “Have I been forgiven of my sins?” Dennis: And that's really what I want you to finish unpacking, in terms of your story with Pastor Ken, who wrote you the letter—as Bob mentioned earlier—and didn't take you to task. Rosaria: No. No. Dennis: He asked you a bunch of questions that were hard for you to answer—invited you over to his home. Rosaria: Right. Dennis: And you went and had a delightful time. Rosaria: I did. I did. I met Christians who were thoughtful, and engaging, and smart, and did not use the Bible to punctuate the end of a sentence but rather to deepen it and had a vital faith life. And you know—the other thing I want to say about Ken, which was really interesting—it was not like Ken had some—went to some PhD program, where he developed a para-church ministry on how to minister to homosexuals—not at all! I suspect that I was the first person, in the lesbian community—that Ken had ever met—that he knew, perhaps, was a lesbian. But Ken knew Jesus. He knew Him really well. He knows Him really well. Therefore, Ken could walk the long journey over to me and help me walk that long journey back to Jesus because he didn't need a para-church ministry. Ken didn't need to find somebody in the church who had a daughter who was a lesbian—he didn't—he pretty much presumed that he could ask me some straight-up questions. I could answer them, and nobody was going to fall down dead. I think the fact that I wanted to read the Bible, even for the wrong reasons, was delightful to Ken. You know, as a pastor's wife now, I will tell you anybody who is excited to read the Bible—we don't care!—just start reading! Bob: —what your motive is—doesn't matter. Rosaria: It doesn't matter! [Laughter] Bob: Did you intentionally say things to Ken to try to shock him? Did you try to— Rosaria: I don't remember, intentionally, trying to scare Ken. I think I tried to tell him that I was a member of a Unitarian Church, in the hopes that he wouldn't invite me to church; but I didn't realize that he wasn't planning on inviting me to church. He was planning on bringing the church to me, a heathen. Bob: You said, “He and his wife, Floy, came to your house.” Rosaria: Oh, yes. Bob: Like, did they come on Thursday nights? Rosaria: No, well, I don't think so. No, no, no. Not in that kind of thing, but what happened—this is how it started. Ken and Floy and I became friends. They let me do things for them—which is really nice because, sometimes, Christians forget that a really good way to be loving is to let other people use their gifts. I loved to bake bread and make soup. So, if somebody was sick, I loved doing that. They let me serve them in that way. Then, they served me in many ways. We just had a grand old time. In fact, I felt like: “Wow! I have finally arrived! I am a real liberal! I finally have friends who are not in the queer community and have PhD's in the humanities. Look, I have these evangelical”— Dennis: These right-wingers! Rosaria: —“these straight, evangelical, conservative Christians; and I hang out with them. I've arrived!” Then, Ken said something really funny—well, it was the gauntlet moment. He said, “Rosaria, I am concerned about the English Department.” I should tell you I was the undergraduate coordinator of the English program. So, I was a little concerned about where this was going. He said: “Well, you've read the Bible now; and you see that it has every genre. It is a beautiful book of literature. I would like to go and speak to your English majors and tell them why they should be reading the Bible.” Well, my claws came out. I was—suddenly, the mother bear in me was born; and I just made it very clear that— Bob: That wasn't going to happen. Rosaria: Over my dead body and through my claws. Dennis: That was brilliant though. Rosaria: Well, let me tell you what happened next! It occurred to me, though, that this lecture would be pretty advantageous for me because I am a student of hermeneutics; but I do not know the hermeneutical traditions that an evangelical Christian uses. I know about canonicity, but I don't know about the canons that legitimated these 66 books. I thought to myself: “Hmm. You know what? I'd like to hear this lecture.” So, before I took Ken's head off, I said, “How about an audience of one?” And this is probably the most spectacular thing about Ken Smith. You think about it. Often, in the church, we want to talk to a thousand people. We get frustrated: “Oh, so few people came to this worship service,” or, “Oh, we had this outreach; and there were only—well, one.” Ken came for me—for one. I still have the notes. He lectured for an hour. I thought that man would never shut up! [Laughter] I was fuming! I was fuming. So, when he got to the end—finally, he stopped! [Laughter] You know, “Hallelujah! He stopped!” I said: “Ken, you have one book that declares it is the true truth—and it does so on—of all things—an ontology. It claims to be true because of its own truth claim! I mean, that's just—you get thrown out of the game for playing that way. I have—what?—a hundred, on the bookshelf behind you, that says you are wrong.” He just clapped his hands and grinned. He said, “Exactly! And next week, we're going to talk about that!” [Laughter] Bob: It wasn't just a lecture. He was taking you to a class, here. Rosaria: He did—a one student. Dennis: And so, what happened? I mean, how did you find your way on that journey? Rosaria: Well, yes. That night, I remember walking my dog and thinking, “My world would be a very different world if I believed these things.” Dennis: In fact, you were starting to change, even— Rosaria: I was. Dennis: —in the midst of that. Your friend, the transgender friend— Rosaria: My friend, Jay—well, that's right. She had cornered me, in the kitchen, at one of my Thursday night events—that was important, too, by the way, because I felt like, in some ways, her response gave me permission. So, this was important. She cornered me in the kitchen and said: “Look, before you pour any more glasses of wine or fill any more pasta bowls, you need to come clean with me. All of this Bible reading is changing you, and I'm worried.” I sat down in the chair. I felt like I was going to throw up. I said: “What if it's true? What if it's true—and you, and I, and everyone we know—we're all in trouble. What if Jesus is a real and risen Lord, Who sits at the right of God, the Father? What if all of this is true? What if Jesus died for the sins of His people? What if healing happens through the stripes of Jesus? What if He took on a curse so that people could be blessed? What if all of that—that whole story—I mean, do you know that story? What if all that is true?” Then, she sat down and looked like she was as bad off as I was, at that point, and said: “I know! I was a Presbyterian minister for 15 years. I prayed that God would heal me, but He didn't. If you'd like, I'll pray that God will heal you.” That threw me for a loop: “What does it mean that she prayed for healing but didn't get it?” That conversation left me a jumble of raw emotions. That was the thing about this whole journey—that it was just eating me alive. So, the next day, I came home from work, got the mail, and started to let the dogs out. I found a crate of books by my door, and it was from Jay. It was, I presume, her theological library. I picked up the first book, and it was Calvin's Institutes. I was just flipping through it. I love to see other people's handwriting in the margin of books because—especially, friends—I love to see the journey that friends have taken. Right there, next to the exposition of Romans 1, in Jay's handwriting—in her handwriting, it said: “Watch out. This is where you will fall.” Then, I went to the Bible. I opened it up, and I looked at Romans 1. I'd already read it; but this time, it just hit me, between the eyes, that God gives some over to a degrading passion. I had never thought about my life in those terms before. That made me want to just throw the Bible and everything in the trash and ignore Ken's e-mails and phone calls. It made me think about this. So, I tried to do that, of course; but it didn't work because Ken believes in the perseverance of the saints. So, there we were; [Laughter] but one of things it did make me realize—it was just a small, little chink in my armor—but it made me realize that I'd been reading the Bible, feeling perfectly justified that I would be the judge of it. I thought about a question—it's back to God's authority—that: “If God, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, used chosen men to write this Bible—and these are truly His God-breathed words, then, who has authority over God?” and, “Why do I feel that I should be the judge of the Bible? What if”—and I just kept it as a logic question. I didn't go there right away: “What if I allowed the Bible to be the judge of me?” It occurred to me that I was truly trying to write a book that understood how evangelical Christians got into this dilemma. It struck me that that is how Ken Smith read the Bible. This may seem so obvious to people—I don't know—millions of Christian listeners thinking, “That was really interesting?” But that was really interesting because, in a post-modern context, authority is— Dennis: Right. Rosaria: —you put it in quotation marks because it only exists because of Oz behind the curtain. It isn't real! So, that's when the question of God's authority entered into my thinking process, as I was reading. It did occur to me because I—obviously, for example—what I am doing on this radio station—I can talk for a really long time [Laughter] and not stop. You guys might have a million questions; and here, it's just like a train wreck; isn't it gentlemen? See, you get to experience it with me! Dennis: No, it's transformation. Rosaria: Well, but it did make me realize that I wanted to judge what God said about homosexuality; but I didn't even want to hear the other side. That did strike me as anti-intellectual. Dennis: You discovered that you're not going to judge God; but in fact, you're ultimately accountable to Him? Rosaria: Well, I didn't discover that right away! See, you are giving me more credit. [Laughter] Dennis: Well, but you are on the road. Bob: You are on the path. Rosaria: I'm on the road. I'm on the road. Dennis: You're on the road, and to that person who identifies with you— Rosaria: That's right. I'm on the road. Dennis: I just want to—I want to read to them the words of Jesus Christ in John, Chapter 5. He said: “Truly, truly, I say to you, ‘Whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life.” Rosaria: Amen! Dennis: It really is an issue of faith and of belief. And to that person, who is listening to Rosaria and identifies with her journey, maybe, all that's left for you to do is to finally give in to the ultimate Authority. Bob: And that's the point. It's an issue of authority. Who is in charge—you or somebody else? And when you come to that moment— Dennis: And is that somebody else, Jesus Christ? Bob: That's right. When you come to that moment—to go, “If I'm looking around, if it's not me, who is it?”—there is only one person who stands who has authority—all authority in heaven and earth—has been given to Him, according to Matthew, Chapter 28. That's the issue that you had to confront. You write about it so well in the book that you've written. Again, Rosaria's book is called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. I want to encourage our listeners to get a copy. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. You can order a copy from us online. Again, the website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. That's our toll-free number, 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY”. We're happy to send a copy of this book out to you. I think you will find it very encouraging. By the way, we are very encouraged by those of you who come alongside this ministry and help support FamilyLife Today. You make programs like this possible through your generous financial support to FamilyLife Today. We're listener-supported. It's your donations that make it possible for us to cover the cost of producing and syndicating this daily radio program. If you can help with a donation, we'd like to say, “Thank you,” by sending you a couple of resources. The first is a CD—a conversation we had with Joanne Kraft about how she put her foot down when life got just too busy at her house. She had what she called “The Radical Sabbatical”. She talks about it in our conversation with her. Then, we'd also like to send you a copy of Tim Kimmel's book, Little House on the Freeway—just to help you calibrate the level of busyness around your house. These two resources are our thank-you gift to you if you can support FamilyLife Today, this month, with a donation of, at least, $25. Again, we want to say, “Thank you,” in advance, for whatever you are able to do in support of this ministry. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, “I CARE”; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation over the phone and just ask for “The Busyness Bundle”. We're happy to send that out to you, and we do appreciate your faithful partnership with the ministry of FamilyLife Today. Tomorrow, we will hear the conclusion of the Rosaria Butterfield story and hear how God got her from where she was to where she is. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. And on behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I am Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2013 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa ChanFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Marriage for God's Glory Guests: Francis and Lisa Chan From the series: You and Me Forever (Day 2 of 3) Bob: It was after a trip to Africa that Francis Chan came back to his home in the United States and told his wife he thought God wanted their family to downsize. Lisa wasn't so sure. Lisa: I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. It was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful—and every time, He says, “If you lose your life for My sake, you will find it,”—on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and, eventually, got to go to Africa with Francis. I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings [of joy] on the outset. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, January 23rd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. 1:00 Lisa Chan says that God's Word is true when it says, “Whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” That's true, even in marriage. We'll talk more about that today with Francis and Lisa Chan. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. We've been hearing, both last week and again this week, from a lot of our listeners who are getting in touch with us about the special offer that expires this week on our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways. For those of you who are new listeners to FamilyLife Today, the Weekend to Remember is the two-and-a-half-day getaway we do for couples in cities all across the country. It's a great romantic time away together, where you learn what the Bible teaches about God's design for marriage. If you sign up for one of these getaways before the end of the week, you will save 50 percent off the regular registration fee as a FamilyLife Today listener. 2:00 We are encouraging you to get more information—go to FamilyLifeToday.com—find out when a getaway is going to be in a city near where you live and then block out that weekend, and call and register now to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. The number to call is 1-800-FL-TODAY. You can also register online at FamilyLifeToday.com. I know some of these getaways are starting to get close to selling out, so don't hesitate. Join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, and register this week to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. Now, I've got to be honest—I'm not sure I want to talk to the couple we have joining us today, because they just shared with us they've had like 12 fights in the past 21 years. I'm kind of like, “Bring me some couples I can relate to a little more”; you know? [Laughter] 3:00 Dennis: Well, I was thinking: “We've been married double that. We've got more than 24, though,”—[Laughter]—doubling your dozen that you've had. Francis and Lisa Chan join us on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back. Francis: Thank you. Lisa: Thank you. Dennis: They've written a book called You and Me Forever. In case there is a listener who doesn't know who this couple is—they live in the Bay Area of Northern California. They are about church planting there—also, ministering to men / I assume it's only men coming out of prison. Francis: Yes; we've been trying to start a women's home as well. So, right now, it's just the guys coming out of prison. Dennis: I want to go to something you mention in your book. You made this statement—you said, “If you could manuscript your prayers of what you've prayed about for the last month, what would they reveal about you, as a couple?” Francis: So, it's like what David says in Psalm 27, verse 4, when he says, “This one thing I ask of the Lord and that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in His temple.” 4:00 That was his one prayer request: “God, I want You—I want You. I want to see You. I want to be with You.” So, the question is: “Give me a manuscript of your prayers for the last month. I want to hear: ‘What do you hunger for? What do you want?' You're coming before the Creator, the Sovereign One, who is in control of this whole earth; and what are you asking for?” Dennis: Yes. Bob: And most of us are asking for: “Fix this,”— Francis: Yes. Bob: —“Make life easier or better— Francis: Yes. Bob: —“for me”; right? Francis: Amen! Bob: So, if that's—I mean, is it illegitimate for us to pray— Francis: No. Bob: —“I'd like things to go better in my life”? Francis: No; you know, it's—the Lord tells us to bring what we desire before Him; but also, the things that we desire reveal a lot about us; you know? It opens our eyes to: “Wow! That's what I'm about?—is: ‘Get rid of all my problems,'”—because I don't see that in Scripture. It's more about, “God, give me the strength to make it through this—develop my character through these trials.” You know, that's what I see in Scripture. 5:00 Lisa: How much of my prayers do I pray for Francis? Do I pray for his walk with God? Do I pray that God would help in his moments of temptation? I mean, that's something that has developed in my life that softens my heart towards him—helps me to love him better. I want to be praying for him because who else is going to pray for him the way that I will? Dennis: One of the things that I try to do, when I pray over my meal at lunch—I don't do it every time—but I try to pray for my wife Barbara and her walk—that she'll see God show up in her life, and she'll respond to Him, and she will grow in her faith. Then, if I'm having lunch with another guy, pray for his wife as well. I don't think a lot of us are challenging one another with that concept, Francis—that you speak of in your book—of really making sure your prayers are about the agenda of what God's up to; because He is at work in your spouse's life, in your children, and in your extended family as well. 6:00 Francis: I just recently started running; you know? I was getting out of shape; and so, I've been running around this track at my daughter's school. Every lap, I'll pray for a different kid. So, it's nice to have seven kids and a wife. [Laughter] It's, at least, two miles a day that I'm running, which is good. As I'm praying, the prayers aren't: “Oh, help us get along better,” or “Help this,” “Help that.” It's like: “God, make my wife just this amazing warrior for you. Give her even greater love / greater capacity.” “Help my daughter, as she's in this school right now, to take a stand for you. It's about Your kingdom.” “Use them to influence other people—my kids in grade school / my kid in Little League—have him influence this team.” It's about God: “Your kingdom—Your kingdom come.” Dennis: Lisa, tell the truth. When he starts praying like that— Lisa: Does it scare me? [Laughter] Dennis: —do you get scared? Lisa: No; you know, my immediate thought was: “I'm so glad he's praying for me! I need it.” That is, honestly, my first thought. [Laughter] 7:00 Bob: I want to go back—because you said your dad said, “No,” the first two times to Francis— Lisa: They are going to feel so bad about that. [Laughter] Bob: But, as a daddy, I understand wanting to protect— Dennis: Oh, yes! Bob: —my daughter— Dennis: Absolutely! Bob: —and along comes Francis, who—as you said—they weren't sure if he was crazy about God or just crazy. And your journey together has been a journey of risk and a journey of faith; that, honestly, I can understand a daddy going, “This may be more risk than I raised my little girl for.” Do you know what I'm talking about? Lisa: Yes; and I've seen that tension in them. There have been times when I've just had to cry and be honest with them, like, “I need you to support me and say, ‘You are never going to regret surrendering to God and giving things up.'” That's hard when you have that parent's heart that immediately wants to protect. I have it, too, with all of my kids. 8:00 So, I do get it in a different way now; but how much I want to encourage parents to be that voice of courage for their kids—married or not; married 20 years / 30 years—still be that voice that says: “Honey, go for it! Don't look back. Surrender it all to God, because He's got you.” Bob: But there have to have been times when crazy Francis came to you and said, “I think the Lord is saying this,” and your immediate answer wasn't, “Yes, let's go for that,”— where you had to kind of go: Lisa: Oh, yes. Bob: —“Really? There is a cost here.” Lisa: One of the hardest—the first most difficult was when he had come back from Africa. I had not been with him on that trip. God completely wrecked him. He wanted to sell our home and cut our house size from 2,000 square foot to 1,000 square foot—it was, literally, right in half. 9:00 We had two kids. We had a couple of people living with us—we always have—but he wanted to move. He was like: “I can't do this anymore. I need to give something up in order to love these kids that I saw.” It was love-motivated, which was so awesome; but I was so honest with him—I said, “I wasn't with you. I don't feel love in my heart; I feel more like, this is going to stink!” [Laughter] No; I mean, I'm just being honest. I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. It was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful—and every time He says, “If you lose your life for My sake, you will find it,”—on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and eventually got to go to Africa with Francis. I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings [of joy] on the outset. Bob: Your immediate reaction was, “I don't know.” 10:00 Lisa: It was: “I don't want to, but I will do what is in your heart. I will not stand in the way of what you want to do.” And so— Bob: And were you still—on the day you were moving into a 1,000 square-foot house, were you going: “I don't want to do this,” or had—by that time, had you started to go, “Okay; I guess this is going to be okay,” or what? Dennis: Or did you negotiate a 1,500 square-foot home? [Laughter] Lisa: No, it was 1,000; and it was hard. I think the initial reaction was the hardest. Then, it was, “Swallow it.” Then, it was, “This is going to be fine.” Then, it was: “Why am I so stupid? This has been the best thing.” It was one of our favorite homes. We had the best neighbors that we reached out to and just loved. It was the tiniest, little thing. We had six of us, eventually, there. We had two more kids there; and then, we had two girls living with us. We moved up to eight living in that little, tiny house. 11:00 Dennis: Francis, if I've learned anything in the years I've been married, in order for our wives to have that kind of response, you have to have loved her with a love that results in respect and the ability to trust—when her heart isn't quite yet in it—but she knows she's got to go with you because she's committed to you and she's committed to the mission. Talk about your love for Lisa and how you have built that kind of trust. Francis: I think, not to over-spiritualize it, but I do really believe that one of the things I've been able to help Lisa with is to trust in the Lord. So, when it came to a bigger decision—like the house—she had seen God's faithfulness in the past, and I think that's where the trust was. She was trusting that I was following the Lord and that the Lord was going to bless our steps, as long as we just keep going, and even sacrificing/denying ourselves during those times we didn't feel like it. 12:00 At the same time, we had been around the world. They would find us, even right now, having this conversation—about a 1,000 square-foot home, with toilets and air-conditioning—just absolutely laughable! Dennis: —that that's a sacrifice. Francis: Exactly!—because this is their dream house. So, I don't want to sit here and go, “Oh, you guys, we really suffered.” It's like: “Man, that's luxury. We're living in America.” Lisa: That's why it wasn't until after I had been with him into some of those areas of extreme poverty that I did feel so stupid for complaining and thinking that I was sacrificing so much. I said, “Oh, I would have sacrificed more.” I said, “We could live in a tent,”—although that would probably be really hard—[Laughter]—but— Dennis: You kind of looked at him— Bob: “Don't plant any ideas!” [Laughter] Dennis: Well, that's what she was thinking—she was going: “Oh, no! We're going to downsize from 1,000 square feet.” Francis: And that's crossed my mind—that's happened—the tent. Laughter] Dennis: Francis, let's talk about how you are the spiritual lover and leader of Lisa and your family. 13:00 You've got a lot going on in your life out there: “How do you love Lisa? How do you provide the kind of mandate that Ephesians 5 talks about—‘Husbands, love you wives as Christ loved the church'?” Francis: It's something the Lord put in me. It's weird because I didn't really have that, growing up; and yet, it's so natural to me. It's not like I have to force myself to love my kids, and to enjoy them, or force myself to spend time with Lisa. I am gone a lot, but all the kids know I want to be at home with them. A lot of times, I will take them with me on some of my speaking engagements—I'll take one kid at a time. So, I do serve kids—you know, my kids— through relationship, through just laughing with them, and teaching them, and disciplining them, and getting the time with them. A lot of times, we're just in ministry together. 14:00 Dennis: Lisa, we'll let you answer the question too: “How does he love you?” Lisa: Well,— Dennis: And again— Lisa: —practically speaking,— Dennis: —not in an idealistic way—yes; in a practical way. Lisa: Yes; one of the nicest things—that every mother will appreciate—is those nights, when he'll see that I have been in the home / I have had the little people all over me—and the big ones, sometimes, that have the emotional needs that go far beyond your little ones—and he'll just say: “Honey, I got this. You just go to Target—[Laughter]—just walk around Target, aimlessly, with a Diet Coke in your hand.” [Laughter] That is such a blessing. He knows when I need a little moment to myself; and he knows those times when he'll say: “Hey, we've got our high schoolers still at home. They are going to watch the little ones. You and I are going to go grab dessert really quick.” That is how he shows love—it is to sneak a little time away / grab some dessert or just to let me go have a moment to myself. 15:00 Bob: As I hear you guys describe your marriage and how this works out for you, I hear a strong sense of mutuality; but I also hear there's leadership, and there's responding to leadership. You know, there is tension, even among Christians today, about: “What's this supposed to look like? How are we supposed to do this? Is the man supposed to lead? Is the wife supposed to submit?” Unpack how you think that's supposed to work and why we are confused about it today. Francis: I think we're confused about it because we've rarely seen a good picture of it. We live in a culture that's very anti-authority—because when have you found godly serving authority; okay? Yet, that's a picture of God. It gets to the point where we even question God's authority, like, “He has no right to give me these rules.” We forget that, no, those rules were to protect you / they were to give you life. 16:00 He is a wonderful authority! I mean, that's the whole rebellion of Adam and Eve. It's like: “Well, did He really say? That sure does look good.” It's like: “No! You're going to ruin everything!” Authority can be beautiful. Jesus, who knew who He was—He understood He was the Lord—yet, He goes and He washes the disciples' feet—He dies on the cross for them. That's our picture of authority. That's what the head of the home is supposed to do. If you had that, then, I believe you would see a lot more women, going: “Okay; I see that. I see how it can be good to be under their authority.” So, I see, in Scripture—it is pretty clear to me that the man is supposed to be the head of the home, but he's supposed to lead in a way that's like a servant that is Christ-like. Dennis: When a man serves, denies himself, loves, leads, and really takes care of his wife, it makes her responsibility and her response reasonable. 17:00 And Lisa, in the book, I so enjoy what you write on Page 88 because you talk about five reasons why—what has become a very nasty word in our culture / a politically-incorrect word—the word, “submission,”—but it's a biblical term. You talk about why we should do that. I want you to share that with our listeners, because there is probably a listener or two who is losing heart in well-doing and needs to be reminded why it's so important. Lisa: You know, it was hard when we were writing the book; because we could write a whole giant book about submission and authority—right?—and leadership, but we didn't want that to be the focus of the book. But it is important to understand, for a woman—especially because so many women will say: “My husband doesn't deserve to be submitted to. He is not a good leader. He is not following the Lord.” We're not submitting to our husband's perfection and the fact that they deserve it. We're submitting to the fact that God has given them that position of authority. We're submitting to a God-given position and not perfection. 18:00 There were times, even in the beginning, when Francis was not kind and nice about his authority and leadership; but I am still responsible, before God, to say: “You know what? He has given him this position.” You can't get around it through Scripture. It's not one place that says, “Wives, submit to your husbands,”—it's a few times—look it up in your concordance. We can't be so afraid of obeying the Lord—there is freedom in it. The second thing is—only our submission to God should be absolute. We don't submit to our husbands if they ask us to sin, obviously. There is a limit, in that sense. We are all under the umbrella of God's authority. So, if our husband steps outside of that, then we are not to join him in that. Bob: You don't follow him—you don't follow him there. Lisa: Right. I think one of the most important things we have to realize is that we find ourselves thinking that we're fighting against our husbands; but ultimately, we're fighting against God. 19:00 That is not something we want to do—the Scripture says that God opposes the proud, but He gives grace to the humble. It takes humility to follow someone's lead; but, you know, you look back at the very beginning—God said: “It's not good for the man to be alone. I am going to create a helpmate for him.” Why can't we embrace the beauty of that and say: “Wow! I want to give my husband the benefit of my wisdom / my insight”? Then, after I've laid that all down—and I've shown him / I've shared my thoughts and my heart—to allow him to lead / to make the ultimate decision, knowing that I've poured my heart out to him and helped him understand my perspective. It may not always match up. We may not always agree, but give your husband that benefit. He needs you. You are his helpmate. Dennis: Your belief in your husband is empowering and affirming to his leadership. I think—I'm looking at Francis, who is nodding his head—she has made you a better leader— Francis: Oh, yes! Dennis:—because she is a strong woman. 20:00 Francis: Absolutely! If you knew me before I met her, I am sure you would say: “Wow! That was a major transformation. There's no way he could pull off what he's doing without her.” Bob: Knowing that she believes in you / respects you—that she'll follow you— Francis: Yes. Bob: —that puts wind in your sails. Francis: You see—because my parents were dead by the time I was in junior high—so I've never had support / I never had anyone believing in me. I didn't have a cheerleader—anyone in my corner. Yet, the Lord was enough. The Lord was absolutely enough—so, yes—amen and amen. But He created us in such a way that—now, when I finally had someone who believed in me—like another human being, who I knew was going to be by my side and support me, even when everyone else thought I was crazy—yet, she believed / she believed in me. I can't—I can't say enough. 21:00 Lisa: You know, one of the things I have to say is that the thought of coming before the Lord, at the end of my life, and having Him say: “Why did you prevent your husband from doing all these things I had planned for him?”—that is part of what scares me. I think we have to realize that, as women, we want to be life-givers and we want to put wind in their sails, as you put it. We don't want to stand in the way and limit them and limit what God is going to do through them. That is what should scare us. Francis: This is what the book was about—eternity. You know, we have this wonderful family—full of laughter / everything else—but that's going to be over in a second. Just to put it bluntly—we're going to die any moment. Lisa or I will stand before God, Himself— Dennis: Right. Francis: —and what are we going to care about? So, if I love her, then, it's not just about this time here. I want to prepare her for that moment when she faces Him. In the same way—and yes, we are saved by grace— 22:00 —but I want her to know: “I accomplished the work You gave me to do, Father, while I was on that earth—during that brief, little vapor of a time. I did what You wanted me to do.” I think that's true love—is when you are looking at someone—and not just thinking of the here and now, where I benefit. I think about the forever and ever and ever—“How are you going… / What's that existence going to be like?”—it's based upon how we live now. Bob: Is that really your hand print on the cover? Francis: No; my hand wouldn't have fit on the book. [Laughter] Bob: I was just looking at your hand, going,— Francis: I know! Bob: —“You've got huge hands.” Francis: I know; it's freaky/scary. [Laughter] Bob: We do have copies of your book, You and Me Forever, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order a copy, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY—You and Me Forever: Marriage in Light of Eternity by Francis and Lisa Chan. Again, find it online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-“F”' as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 23:00 And don't forget—if you have any interest in—and I hope you do—in coming to one of our Weekend to Remember marriage getaways this spring / they're going to be in over 50 cities across the country—sign up this week and you save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. It's a special offer we're making for FamilyLife Today listeners that expires this weekend. If you have any questions about the getaway, call us or go online at FamilyLifeToday.com. And can I just say?—for you to have a couple of days—where the two of you get away, and recalibrate, and refocus, and breathe a little fresh air into your marriage—that would be good for anybody. If it's been a while since you've done that, you ought to go ahead and make plans now to be at one of the getaways and save a little money in the process; okay? Sign up at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get registered for an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. If you want to buy a gift card for somebody to attend a getaway, those are available at 50 percent off the regular registration fee as well. 24:00 Get the details at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800- FL-TODAY and join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about how marriage and ministry can coexist—how you can be in alignment, as husband and wife, in being involved in kingdom work. Our guests, Francis and Lisa Chan, will be back with us tomorrow. I hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright© 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
A Promise Kept (Part 1) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 2) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 3) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 4) - Robertson McQuilkinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Promise KeptDay 3 of 4 Guest: Robertson McQuilkin From the series: What God Has Done______________________________________________________________________Bob: In the late 1980s, Robertson McQuilkin's wife Muriel was first diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. Over time, her condition became worse and worse. Here is Dr. McQuilkin. Robertson: It's like I was traveling away from her in the olden days, and I would recount our times together, our love times, our fun times, our crisis times. I'd rehearse those, and it was just delightful. It was like I was there. I was living it over again. And so now I'm on a little longer journey. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 13th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear about a long journey and about a promise kept on today's program. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. Often, when I have theh opportunity to speak at one of our FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, which I'm going to be doing in Philadelphia, by the way, coming up in November. I'm looking forward to going in early for a cheesesteak and then spending a weekend at the conference in Philadelphia. Dennis: We'll have more than 60 of these events throughout the fall. And I just want to say, Bob, and excuse me for interrupting here, but … Bob: That's all right. I'll just think about the cheesesteak, you go ahead. Dennis: I know, I know, you're all over the cheesesteak and trying to find a Cheesecake Factory to go visit. Number 70 – or which one is it now? Bob: It will be close to that by the time we get there, I think. Dennis: Number 70 – think about that, folks. Anyway, this is serious. We've got to get – we've got to have intervention for Bob, I think. But, you know, I run into listeners all the time who have been listening to FamilyLife Today, some for a few months, some for several years who still have not been to a Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference or those who went a number of years ago and whose lives have dramatically changed because of just the water that's under the bridge. And it's time, folks, it's time to go back, it's time to get a wheel alignment and to go take a weekend, a Friday night, all day Saturday, half-day Sunday, to sit and soak and have some fun, build some romance, build your relationship. You're not going to be asked to do anything publicly. You're just going to have a blast together as a couple. I just want to ask you a question – when it the last time you really did something great for your marriage? And if that means going to Philadelphia to hear Bob, then join him at the Cheesecake Factory and get over there, but get to one of our 60 Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences this fall and take advantage of what I believe is the finest biblical training in the world on marriage and family. Bob: You feel pretty strongly about this, don't you? Dennis: I do. I've given my adult life to strengthen marriages and families, and I don't know of a better weekend for couples to spend. It's going to enrich their marriage with the right thing. Bob: Well, what I was starting to say was that whenever I get the chance to speak at one of these Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, I tell folks about Dr. Robertson McQuilkin and share with them his example of sacrificial, unconditional, 'til death do us part love that he demonstrated for his wife, Muriel. Dennis: One of the things you've said that has kept you going are all the memories – memories of her wit and kind of how she would flash back at you. And there is one story I want you to share with our listeners where she rebuked you. That's just a classic story that I think points out the differences between men and women in a beautiful way. Robertson: I think you're referring to the time we were – in the evening in bed discussing some earth-shaking theme, which I do not remember. And I was just demolishing her arguments with superb logic. Dennis: Are you saying you were arguing with her? Robertson: Discussing. If I ever do seem to be prevailing in a situation like that, then I start feeling bad about it. But she didn't wait for any sympathy or pity. She just reared up on one elbow and flashed those gray-green eyes at me, and she said, "Well, let me tell you something. Logic's not everything, and feeling's not nothing." Dennis: When I read that story, I thought, "That is a great statement," especially for a man to hear. Bob: You know, those stories, and Dennis talked about how there is comfort in those memories, but I would think, mixed in with the comfort of those memories, would be an ongoing sense of loss. I mean, that's how she was. But that's not how she's been over the last seven years. Robertson: No. It's like I was traveling away from her in the olden days, and I would recount our times together, our love times, our fun times, our crisis times. I'd rehearse those, and it was just delightful. It was like I was there. I was living it over again. And so now I'm on a little longer journey, or she's on a journey, and, no, it's pure pleasure to recount those. Now, if I was wire up, if I was programmed in my head so that I was thinking about, "Oh, but I don't have this anymore," "Oh, but what if it hadn't been this way," then, sure, I could get bent out of shape. And I don't take any credit for it. I give the Lord credit for anything good that I ever think or do, but I don't feel any immediate intervention on God's part. It's just that's not the way I am. I know you'd like to have me feel an agony and a pain and a wrestling and a battle, because that would help a lot of people, and I wish I could, but, frankly, that's not been my experience. Bob: Well, you don't ever go to bed at night and pray and say, "Lord, just tomorrow, one day, where it's like it used to be." Robertson: I've never done that. When I go to bed at night I thank the Lord for my sweetheart, and she's just lying there – actually, when she's asleep, it's just like the old days and I say, "Lord, keep watch over in the night and don't let her have any bad dreams. Speak peace to her spirit." My daughter, Marty, has a theory that the Holy Spirit bypasses the mental and the – since her brain is all tangled up, He just bypasses all that and speaks to her spirit. Now, I don't know what the theology of that is, but I like it. Dennis: You know, in 1992, you did have a down period, though. You had resigned your seminary post two years earlier, your eldest son had been killed in a diving accident, and your joy, in your own words, had "drained away." And you said that your passion and your love for God had frozen over. It took a retreat for you in a mountain hideaway to refresh that, and in the process of that you said, "The heavy heart is lifted on the wings of praise." Explain that to our listeners. Robertson: I had discovered it earlier in life, but I'm a slow learner, and when I had these heavy blows, I wasn't asking God why. I never asked why. That's His business, and we're in a fallen world, and I often say, "Why not? Why not me? They're dying of cancer?" So that wasn't a problem with me. But I was just bunged up emotionally – all these poundings, and it was more like the passion had gone out of our relationship. It was more like your number-one lover was silent, and I knew I was in … Dennis: You're speaking of your love for God at this point. Robertson: Yes, yes, and so I knew I was in trouble, and whenever I'm in trouble, big trouble, I try to get away for a few days of fasting and prayer. So I went away, and it took me about 24 hours to pull my focus off of my own traumas and troubles and problems. My faith at that point was more like resignation. Dennis: What do you mean by that? Robertson: In other words, "I'm resigned, okay, God, whatever you want, that's okay." But it's not faith, it's not a buoyant tight connection with God. It's not joy in your confidence and trust. So – I finally got my thoughts away from that as I read the Psalms and as I sang the hymns. I took a hymnbook with me. And as I did and got my focus on Him and began to list all the things about Him I liked, all the wonderful things He's done in the world, all the wonderful things He's done for me, that's when I discovered a heavy heart lifts on the wings of praise. So it was through praise that I was reconnected. Of course, He'd never broken the connection, but I sort of got deaf. Dennis: You know, as you were talking, I was thinking about Psalm 103 – "Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me bless His Holy Name. Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget none of His benefits who pardons all your iniquities, who heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with lovingkindness and compassion, who satisfies your years with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagle." Now, you just hit on a profound theological principle that's taught throughout the Bible, and it's the theological principle of remembrance – that we need to recall what God has done, and if we forget what God has done, we'll forget to trust Him today. We'll forget who He is, and we'll grumble in our tents. Robertson: I started to say, "Amen," but actually it's bad news if we do that, and that's one of the things God has been teaching me in recent times. Back in the early days before I resigned, He taught me about love from a different end. It was how much Muriel wanted to be with me; how much she depended on me; how she expressed all day long her affection for me, and her gratitude for every little thing. Dennis: Actually, she would go in search of you, right? Robertson: During that stage – we were half a mile away, the office from the home, and she would walk. She's a speedwalker. Sometimes she walked up to 10 times a day, round trip. That would be 10 miles. Dennis: In search of you? Robertson: In search – coming to my office to find me – where I might be inaccessible, but she would come. And one time I was helping her with her shoes, taking off her shoes at night, and her feet were bloody from all that walking. And I thought to myself, "God, is that how I love you? I must be with you no matter what it costs; to constantly express my love and my appreciation and my thanksgiving and my trust." I'm secure in Him, and I asked Him to help me love Him the way she loved me. But now, of course, that's all gone. I think she may be a little more content when I'm around, but she doesn't really know anything much. What's subterranean, we don't know, but … Dennis: … she doesn't speak to you? Robertson: Not for about seven years, six years. So He's taught me a lot about love for Him in my relationship with Muriel. Dennis: There was a moment, however, on a Valentine's Day, and the reason Valentine's Day is so important is it goes all the way back to when you proposed to her back in 1947. Robertson: Right, that's right. Dennis: Yes, so Valentine's Day had a very special meaning in your relationship. Robertson: Very special. Actually, if you had a few hours, I'd tell you about some of those Valentine's Days. Some of them were really extraordinary, but she had come to the place where she wasn't – couldn't say a sentence, and even words were just occasional, and they didn't always make good sense. Sometimes "yes" when she meant "no," and so forth. This particular Valentine's eve, I was contemplating an article I'd just read that said in Alzheimer's care, it's the caregiver that's the victim. And I thought, "Hm, strange, I don't feel like a victim." I never did feel like a victim. I wonder why? And she doesn't feel like a victim." We sort of missed that. And then I began rehearsing all these Valentine stories. The next morning I was on my exercycle at the foot of the bed – I threw that away, I can't stand it. [laughter] Bob: Amen. Robertson: But I do run. At any rate, I was then on an exercycle, and when she woke up there, as she often did during those days, as soon as she saw me, she'd break into this big smile and, of course, that made my day. Actually, when she smiles, I hang a flag out front so that my friends and neighbors can tell that's a smile day. So this was a smile day, she smiled. And while she was looking at me and smiling, she paused, and just as clear as a crystal chime, she said, "Love, love, love." Oh, I hopped off the – I came over and hugged her, and I said, "Oh, honey, you really do love me, don't you?" And she couldn't do words like she wanted to, of course. She was looking for an affirmation, and she said I'm nice. And almost the last words she ever said – about six or seven years ago. Bob: Do you wonder if – and I've heard this – I've heard of people who have been in comas for a long period of time and right before they go home they come back out, and they talk, and they're lucid. Do you wonder, do you think ahead and think, "I wonder if I'll have that?" Robertson: One time when we were talking – my sister and I were talking about Muriel. And – of course, she didn't understand, didn't know anything – and Amy said, "You know, when we get to heaven I wonder if she's going to say, 'You turkeys didn't think I knew what was going on, but I heard everything you said.'" [laughter] But, you see, the coma experience is quite common, at least you hear of it often, but that's a totally different physiological thing than having your neurons in tangles up there. So, really, there's no connecting going on. Of course, I'd love to have it, but I'm not waiting for it. Bob: Not holding out hope. Robertson: No. Bob: You know, it was not longer after Muriel died that Robertson wrote another article about her homegoing, and we have a link on our website at FamilyLife.com to the article that he wrote so that listeners can reflect on that transition in his life as well. I think the thing that just stands out and has always stood out to us is the remarkable character. And, you know, Robertson always thought, "I'm not doing anything extraordinary or special. I'm just doing what I promised to do." And I guess the thing that makes it remarkable and extraordinary is because so few people today would do it with good cheer and with grace and with compassion and with sacrifice as he did it. Dennis: And, you know, Bob, what he was talking about there at the end was really missing a relationship, missing being connected, heart-to-heart, mind-to-mind, soul-to-soul with Muriel, and that's what marriage is. It's the mingling of two souls. It's not just two bodies coming together. Marriage is a commitment body, soul, and spirit, of two people to one another, husband and wife. And I just want to take you back where we started the beginning of this broadcast when I exhorted our listeners to come to a Weekend to Remember because what we will help you do is reconnect body, soul, and spirit to one another because that's what makes a great marriage. And if you haven't been to one of our conferences in a few years, or if you've never been, or if you're a single and contemplating marriage, there is no better way to invest in your marriage and the future of your family than to spend a weekend with us and to get the biblical blueprints for how two people can truly connect like Robertson was talking about. Bob: We've got all of the information about the upcoming season of FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences on our website at FamilyLife.com. It lists not only Philadelphia, where I'll be speaking, but, actually, we've got conferences East to West, North to South. I was looking last night. We're going to be in Palm Beach Gardens in Florida, and in Blaine, Washington, which is about as far north as you can go without being in Canada. We're going to be in San Diego, California, and I saw we're going to be in New York state as well. If you'd like to find out when the conference is coming to a city near where you live, or a city you'd like to travel to, go to our website, FamilyLife.com, or call 1-800-FLTODAY, get the weekend blocked out on your calendar and then make reservations to attend one of our FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences when it comes to a city near you this fall. And be sure when you get in touch with us to request a copy of Dr. Robertson McQuilkin's book called "A Promise Kept." I know couples who have given copies of this book as an anniversary gift. It really is a great telling of a great love story, and you can find out how to request a copy when you go online at FamilyLife.com, or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, and we'll make arrangements to have a copy of the book sent out to you. And then let me also ask you when you do get in touch with us, if you are able to help with a donation this month of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we would like to send you a copy of Dennis and Barbara Rainey's devotional book, "Moments With You." FamilyLife Today is listener-supported, and it's folks like you who help keep us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and if you do make a donation this month, and you make it online, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type the word "you" in there, y-o-u, and we'll know to send you a copy of the devotional from Dennis and Barbara, or call 1-800-FLTODAY. You can make your donation over the phone. That's 1-800-358-6329 and just ask for a copy of the devotional book from Dennis and Barbara Rainey, "Moments With You." And, again, let me say thank you for your financial support of the ministry. We appreciate your partnership with us. You know, as we conclude today, one of the things that I think most impressed us in our conversation with Dr. McQuilkin was just his commitment to perseverance to finishing well and to doing the right thing, and he wrote a prayer that he included in his book, "A Promise Kept," called "Let Me Get Home Before Dark." We asked him while he was here to share that prayer with our listeners. Here again is Dr. McQuilkin. Robertson: It's sundown, Lord, the shadows of my life stretch back into the dimness of the years long spent. I fear not death, for that grim foe betrays himself at last, thrusting me forever into life, life with You, unsoiled and free. But I do fear I fear the dark specter may come too soon Or do I mean too late? That I should end before I finish or finish but not well? That I should stain Your honor. Shame your name, grieve your loving heart. Few, they tell me, finish well. Lord, let me get home before dark. The darkness of the spirit grown mean and small Fruit shriveled on the vine bitter to the taste of my companions Burdened to be borne by those brave few who love me still. No, Lord, let the fruit grow lush and sweet A joy to all who taste Spirit's sign of God at work Stronger, fuller, brighter at the end Lord, let me get home before dark. The darkness of tattered gifts, rust-locked, half spent or ill spent A life that once was used of God now set aside. Grief for glories gone or fretting for a task God never gave Mourning in the hollow chambers of memory Gazing on the faded banners of victories long gone Cannot I run well unto the end? Lord, let me get home before dark. The outer me decays, I do not fret or ask reprieve The ebbing strength but weans me from Mother Earth and grows me up for heaven. I do not cling to shadows cast by immortality, I do not patch the scaffold lent to build the real eternal me, I do not clutch about me my cocoon, vainly struggling to hold hostage a free spirit pressing to be born. But will I reach the gate in lingering pain Body distorted, grotesque Or will it be a mind wandering untethered among life fantasies or grim terrors? Of your grace, Father, I humbly ask Let me get home before dark. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. ___________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
A Promise Kept (Part 1) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 2) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 3) - Robertson McQuilkinA Promise Kept (Part 4) - Robertson McQuilkinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Promise KeptDay 1 of 4 Guest: Robertson McQuilkin From the series: My Decision, Part 1 Bob: Robertson McQuilkin clearly remembers the first time he realized something was wrong with his wife, Muriel. Robertson: We were driving with these friends, and Muriel started to tell a story. She liked to tell stories and laugh at her own stories. She had a marvelous, outrageous life – infectious. So she started this story, which she had just told five minutes earlier. This is a pretty, you know, four- or five-minute story. And I said, "Honey, you just told us that. This is a rerun." And she just laughed and went right on. And I thought, "Hey, that's funny. That never happened before." But then it began to happen with ever-greater frequency and, of course, we hadn't even heard the name Alzheimer's. [musical transition] Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 11th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Today we hear the first part of a powerful love story. Stay tuned. [musical transition] And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. I know one of the questions you get asked frequently – I get asked the same question – is when you think back over now almost 16 years of doing FamilyLife Today what are some of your favorite radio interviews? And I think what our listeners are going to get a chance to hear this week has to be up in the top tier of programs we've ever had the privilege of doing. Dennis: And I thought you were going to say, Bob, one of the Top 10. Bob: Well, it's certainly one of the Top 10, maybe even higher than that, don't you think? Dennis: No doubt about that. Robertson McQuilkin is a rare man. He is a world-renowned biblical theologian who has served internationally as a missionary. He was, for a number of years, president of Columbia International University; has spoken worldwide; written a number of books. But the real story our listeners are about to hear is Robertson's love for his wife, Muriel, who – well, more than 10 years from the time of this interview had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, and he was caring for her and, in fact, had resigned from his position as president of the seminary and college, and he went home to take care of her. And it's just a great love story. Bob: It is a powerful story and, again, this interview goes back now almost nine years, but it's one of those interviews that we pull out and listen to ourselves over and over again, and we wanted our listeners to hear it as well. Here is part 1 of our conversation with Dr. Robertson McQuilkin. Dennis: Robertson, you and your wife, Muriel, met and dated during the year I was born – 1948. That kind of dates me here a little bit. Robertson: It dates me. Dennis: Tell us about the love story originally. How did you meet Muriel and how did you propose to her? Robertson: Well, we were both students at what was then Columbia Bible College. Now it's Columbia International University. And I thought she was the cutest thing. Somebody asked me on a television show whether it was love at first sight, and I said, "No." I liked her at first sight, but I was only 17 years old – 16 when we first met. But in our chapel, which was required, she sat in front of me, and when I watched her lovely, artistic fingers going through the hair, lovely brown hair, I just wanted to go out and see what she was like, and I discovered she was delightful – just smart and gifted and just a great lover of people and more fun than you can imagine. Bob: Now, did you just tap her on the shoulder in chapel and say, "Would you go out for a Coke with me on Friday night? Robertson: Well, I talked to her afterwards. We were in conversation before, but, I mean, that really got me going. Dennis: So you proposed – how'd you do that? Robertson: It happened several times. Dennis: It took you a while to win Muriel's love, huh? Robertson: I think she was faking it, actually. But, at any rate, yes. The first time was in the lobby of the school, and she had this – she wouldn't hold hands or kiss or anything, and I said, "Let me hold your hand, I want to tell you something." And she said, "Well, tell me what you're going to tell me." But she let me hold her hand, and I told her I loved her, and that was the first time. Dennis: Yeah, and you told her you wanted her to be your wife? Robertson: I didn't say that much, but she got the drift. But we decided afterwards, since we were young – and I guess a lot of people, after they propose, then they have misgivings. So we decided to be sure it was God's will that we put it on hold for six months, and I went to seminary, and she went to teach in a school. So we didn't have any contact for six months. And they say that distance will blow out a little flame and fan a big one. So at the end of that time – I went to Bluefield, West Virginia to see her, and it was on Valentine's Day 1947 – the day before Valentine's Day, and that's when I had my ring and asked her to marry me, and she said, "Well, I've got to pray about it." She knew all along what she was going to do. Through the years I'd accuse her, I'd say, "You just did that so we could get engaged on Valentine's Day." [laughter] Bob: Well, you had to be a little nervous, driving up to Bluefield, West Virginia. You haven't seen her in six months, and you're carrying the ring, and did you wonder whether that little flame had been blown out or whether the big flame was still fanned? Robertson: Well, I don't know, I was pretty confident, I guess. Dennis: Really? Robertson: She'd sent me all kinds of signals. I think it was her idea in the first place. Dennis: Well, you begin your book, "A Promise Kept," some 30 years later with the story of you all spending some time at a friend's house in Florida. And something occurred there that was the beginning of a period of suffering and drama that continues on to this day. Robertson: We were driving with these friends, and Muriel started to tell a story. She liked to tell stories and laugh at her own stories. She had a marvelous, outrageous laugh – infectious. So she started this story, which she had just told five minutes earlier. It was a pretty – you know, four- or five-minute story. I said, "Honey, you just told us that. This is a rerun," and she just laughed and went right on. And I thought, "Hey, that's funny, that never happened before." But then it began to happen with ever-greater frequency and, of course, we hadn't even heard the name Alzheimer's back then, I don't think. Dennis: How old was Muriel at that point? Robertson: Fifty-five. But if we had known about Alzheimer's, it's an old-folks' disease and wouldn't have connected it with her, anyway. Bob: When did you get to a point where you said, "There's something going on here?" Robertson: Well, actually, she went into the hospital for a heart examination. It proved to be nothing, but then the young – I guess he was an intern – a very young doctor, I'd never met him, he called me out into the hall, and he said, "You may want to consider Alzheimer's." And I was shocked, but that started the wheels turning, and about two yeas after that, in '83, we went to a neurologist friend who, by the process of elimination, concluded that that's probably what it was. Dennis: How did you handle the news that your wife of less than 60 years of age could have a disease that was progressive, and you were watching it manifest itself in various ways – how did you personally handle it at that point? Robertson: Well, of course, there's a sense of loss, but it wasn't a crisis experience because we knew something was up. One time on a TV program, a man said, "What has God done miraculously to enable you to love her so and to hang in there and be patient," so forth? And I said, "I don't like the question. What if I said, 'I like you, but the only reason is that God has worked a miracle to enable me to like somebody so unlikable.' I said you wouldn't like that. I love her because she's lovable, she's altogether lovable." So it's never been something I try to pump up or something like that. Dennis: I want to stop you right there – "She is altogether lovable." She hasn't spoken a word to you in how many years? Robertson: Oh, six, I guess. Dennis: Six years. Robertson: Yes. Dennis: Help me here – there are some of our listeners who want to say, "Robertson, she is altogether lovable." Robertson: She is sweet, she's contented, she's totally dependent on me, and I just – from all the background of the wonderful years that we spent together, I have all the memories, and it's just a joy to see that I can make a difference in her life. Bob: You understand the challenge. I mean, a lot of people listening are thinking six years of being bedfast and not speaking sounds more like something you endure than something you enjoy. Robertson: I guess it depends on your outlook. If you consider yourself a victim, and you'd rather be – you know, I never think about "what if." I don't think "what if" is in God's vocabulary. So I don't even think about what I might be doing instead of changing her diaper or what I might be doing instead of spending two hours feeding her. It's the grace of God, I'm sure, like you said, Dennis, but it also may be the way I'm wired to live the now and not live in the past or live in the future. Dennis: In the midst of all these things starting to progress in her life, you write in your book that she did not know what was happening to her. Robertson: No, she didn't. One thing about forgetting is you forget that you forgot, and so she never seemed to suffer too much with it. She would know that she'd failed. She may be desperate to please or to make something happen the way it's supposed to, the way it always had, and it didn't – but only momentarily, and then she'd laugh at herself and have another go at it. That was her personality, it always had been. Bob: Did you, at some point, say to her, "Sweetheart, you've been diagnosed with Alzheimer's?" Robertson: I never told her. I asked my doctor if it was okay not to, because some people in the field say that you should walk through it together, but Muriel really lived for me, and I knew that if she realized what was going to happen that this would be very painful for her. So I asked him, and he said, "No, if she doesn't ask and isn't concerned, then just let it go." So she never really – she knew she was having problems, but she didn't know the diagnosis. Dennis: I happen to know right now that there is a person who is staying with Muriel – your daughter, Marty. Robertson: Yes. Dennis: And Marty makes it possible for you to be able to make an occasional trip like this – a day trip – as you've had here to FamilyLife and to share your story with us. I'd like to call Marty on the phone, because she has watched you, as her father and the husband of her mother, make a remarkable commitment to her mother and to your wife. And she wrote a poem in the back of your book that – what I want to do, Bob, is I want to call Marty on the phone, and I just want to get a little bit of a glimpse from a child, an adult child, of what this has meant to her and have her share this poem with our listeners. Bob: I think we're working to get her on the line right now – let's see. Dennis: Is this Marty? Marty: Yes. Dennis: This is Dennis Rainey and Bob Lepine on FamilyLife Today. Marty: Uh-huh. Dennis: How are you doing? Marty: Just fine, thank you. Dennis: We're here in the studio with your Dad. Why don't you say hi to your Dad? Marty: Hi, Dad. Robertson: Hi, Martykins. Dennis: He said you love surprises, so we decided we would surprise you. Marty: Yes, this is a surprise. Dennis: You're there taking care of your mom, right? Marty: Uh-huh, yes. Dennis: How is she doing today? Marty: She's doing fine. Robertson: Any smiles? Marty: Well, no, I don't think so. But she's taking her time with her lunch still. Dennis: I've just got a couple of things I want you to do. First of all, we're sharing with our listeners just a remarkable commitment by a husband to his wife. What's your perspective on that as one who is looking at a man who is committed to your mother? Marty: Well, of course, I grew up in this family with the two of them, and they always were in love. I mean – the two of them were always kissing and hugging in the kitchen and in the living room and in the hallway. I mean – my memory from my childhood is two people that were always – not only did they love one another, but they were in love. They really thought that each other set the moon, and so it didn't surprise me at all. I mean, this, to me, is just the natural thing that would happen with these two particular people. All she ever wanted was to be with him, and all he ever wanted was to be with her, and it never changed, never diminished. I mean, you know, they had disagreements, and they had discussions and things, but it didn't affect the relationship. So, to me, this is just the way it ought to be, you know what I'm saying? Robertson: Thank you, Marty. Dennis: Marty, you've written a poem that Robertson put in his book, "A Promise Kept," and I shared with our listeners a few moments ago that we were calling you to ask you a question but also to read this poem that you wrote as a Christmas gift in 1994. Would you mind – see if you can't find a copy of the book there in the house somewhere and read it to our listeners. Would you mind doing that? Marty: Okay, hold on a minute, here. I'm not sure where in the book it is. Dennis: It's page 72, Marty. Marty: Okay – "Wild roses grew in Mother's mind, Seeds fell from her hands, and laughter ran like a mountain brook out of her heart to water our gardens. She gathered stones and sunlight, moonbeams and melodies; no smallest bit of loveliness was passed without the sweet caress of her happy recognition. She gleefully uprooted pretense and tossed it in the sea. She danced and ran where others walked, and now the snow falls deep around the place she spun and shone, scattering godlight from her hair." I don't know if when you were talking to Dad, he described the kind of person Mother was, but she was imperturbable, loved life, and totally disliked any sort of inauthenticity or elitism. She would think nothing, if she saw a beautiful house, of walking up and ringing the doorbell and asking the owner if she could look through it because she thought it was so beautiful. She embarrassed us enormously. And she did – she collected rocks, she collected flowers. I mean, when she would be walking along and see dead flowers along the side of the road, she would collect the seeds from them and bring them home and plant them. And she would sing. She would sing if she was washing dishes, she would sing to us when she wanted us to do something instead of asking us. She had her little songs that she would sing to get us to come and help her sweep the floor or whatever. So I see her as a garden that is covered with snow, but is not gone. Robertson: Yes, yes. Bob: Marty, thanks for taking time out to share with our listeners a little bit about your dad and your mom. We appreciate it. Dennis: Yes, Marty, thank you for setting us straight, because we'll not refer to him as a saint or a hero anymore. Marty: [laughs] Dennis: Bye-bye. Marty: Bye. Bob: You know, I had to hear a little bit in Marty's laugh some of what Robertson has described as that infectious laugh of Muriel. Dennis: And you think, Bob, of what a daughter has seen as she has watched this love story emerge. I think one of the most profound statements she made is that, "Hey, what's abnormal about this? This was always the commitment, always the love that we saw in our home from day one. So what's the big deal?" Well, it just looks like a big deal today, because there's not enough faithful men and women like Robertson and Muriel who are faithfully loving one another, and, Robertson, I know you don't like the attention but, nonetheless, I'm truly grateful that you have continued to weather the storm, even to this day, 22 years later, and that your love stands strong and firm and steadfast for a woman that you love – present tense. Bob: You know, I hate to break it to you, but I don't think you kept your word to Marty. I think you have referred to her dad as a hero. Dennis: Yes, I really have. Bob: On more than one occasion. Dennis: I really have, and I still refer to Dr. McQuilkin as a hero, because – well, it's what Marty observed. It's just a great love story. I mean, Hollywood tries it, but they seldom get it right, and this is just a magnificent and may I use the word "holy?" Just a holy story of a man attempting to nourish and cherish his wife in the midst of a disease that was robbing her of her personality and her memory and ultimately of her life. Bob: And it's stories like this that we need to be reminded of from time to time. That's one of the reasons we wanted our listeners to hear it – some of them for the first time, and some of them hearing it again. But, you know, this is one of those stories you ought to listen to again and again. I was thinking about the couples who have attended our FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, and it may have been four or five years or longer since they have been to a conference, and they may be thinking, you know, "I've been there done that, don't need to repeat that experience." And yet I think all of us need to be reminded regularly of what sacrificial love and service look like in a marriage relationship. We need to be reminded of what God's calling us to and how we can build the kind of marriage relationship that can go the distance. We are about to kick off our fall season of FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences here next month, and we're starting to hear from listeners who are getting the dates, blocking out the weekend, and making plans to attend one of these two-and-a-half-day conferences designed to help couples strengthen and deepen their marriage relationship, to provide help, to provide hope, and to give them a fun, relaxing getaway. For many couples, it's a refresher or a tuneup. For some couples, it's a turning point in their marriage. And I want to point our listeners to our website, FamilyLife.com. You can go online and get more information about the fall season of Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences. I was just visiting with a friend, and he was asking about locations and dates, and I was recommending some spots where he and his wife may want to travel to attend one of these conferences. If you'd like more information, go online at FamilyLife.com. You can go ahead and block out the date and register now for one of these upcoming conferences, or if it's easier just call us at 1-800-FLTODAY with any questions you have, or if you'd like to register over the phone, again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY or online, again, you'll find us at FamilyLife.com. And when you get in touch with us, be sure to request a copy of Dr. McQuilkin's books, which is called "A Promise Kept." It gives you additional insight into the heart and the character of this man. We have copies of the book, "A Promise Kept," and you can request them from us either online at FamilyLife.com or when you call 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Let me also encourage you – I think one of the ways you can strengthen your own relationship is by spending time together each day praying and talking together about what the Scriptures say about your marriage relationship, and I know a lot of couples would like to be able to do that and don't feel equipped to be able to do that. This month when you make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we would love to send you as a thank you gift a copy of the book by Dennis and Barbara Rainey called "Moments With You." In this book, Dennis and Barbara provide you with a daily devotional that's designed to bring you together, to give you an opportunity to pray together and to look at God's word together and to help you grow closer together as a result. Again, the book, "Moments With You," is our way of saying thank you when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation this month of any amount. If you're making your donation online at FamilyLife.com, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, type in the word "You," y-o-u, and we'll send you a copy of Dennis and Barbara's daily devotional or call 1-800-FLTODAY, you can make a donation over the phone and just ask for a copy of the devotional, moments with you, or Dennis and Barbara's devotional book. Again, we're happy to send it to you, and we appreciate your financial support of this ministry. Tomorrow we're going to hear part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Robertson McQuilkin, and you will hear is very moving comments that he made to students the day he stepped down from his responsibilities as president at Columbia Bible College and Seminary. That's coming up tomorrow, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. 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Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 1) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 2) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 3) - Rosaria ButterfieldFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What Is Truth? Guest: Rosaria ButterfieldFrom the series: Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Day 3 of 3) Bob: After meeting a number of times with a local Presbyterian pastor, Rosaria Butterfield—a college professor, a committed feminist, a lesbian—remembers the morning that everything changed for her. Rosaria: One day, I got up; and I got out of bed that I shared with a woman. I brushed my teeth, and I walked the dogs. An hour later, I was sitting in a pew at the Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church. I came there to meet God. It was very powerful, sitting under the preaching of God's Word. It was very powerful. The prayer that came out—after that—which really surprised me, “Lord, could you make a woman, like me, a godly woman?” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, September 18th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We will hear today how God answered Rosaria Butterfield's prayer. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. There is a passage in a book I read years ago called A Severe Mercy. The author is a man named Sheldon Vanauken, and he was a skeptic at Oxford University. He started writing letters to one of his professors, C.S. Lewis, asking him questions all about Christianity. He'd get a letter written, and Lewis would respond back to him with an answer. He'd write a new letter and get an answer back. He'd finally written a letter to Lewis one time. The answer that came back was: “I've decided not to answer your questions anymore.” He said: “It's—I'm pretty well convinced that The Hound of Heaven is after you, and it's just a matter of time.” [Laughter] I remember reading that—and I remember Vanauken reading and going—he was a little put off; but then, he got a little worried that, maybe, in fact, it was just a matter of time. [Laughter] And I have to wonder if our guest, this week, has—didn't have something of that same experience in her life. Dennis: Yes. And I've been chased down by The Hound of Heaven, as well. It's good that He's on our trail. Rosaria: Amen. Amen. Dennis: I agree with you. Rosaria Butterfield joins us, again, on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back. Rosaria: Thank you very much. Dennis: She has written a book called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. How do you summarize, Bob, what we've talked about— Bob: This week? Dennis: —this week. I mean, Professor of English at Syracuse University and was a part of the women's studies. You were a teacher in the queer studies program. You were a lesbian—had a live-in lover that you were with for a number of years. In the process, she wrote a letter, criticizing a group that came to the Carrier Dome, there at Syracuse University—a group called Promise Keepers. A pastor wrote you back. Long story made short—instead of condemning you, he just started asking you questions that caused you to ponder and reflect, spiritually. And The Hound of Heaven began to get on your trail. Bob: And you found yourself wrestling with whether the Bible is true—whether it's authoritative— Rosaria: That's right. That's right. Bob: —whether your life had to come under the authority of the Scriptures and of the God of the Scriptures. Rosaria: That's right. Bob: But in your case, if you are going to believe this— Rosaria: Right. Oh, yes, yes. Bob: —and if you are going to act like you believe this, it's revolutionary. It's going to leave you with a lot of your old friends who don't want to talk to you anymore and a lot of new friends that you don't know if you want to hang around with. Rosaria: Yes, that's very well-put; right. And so, I did. One day, I got up; and I got out of bed that I shared with a woman. I brushed my teeth, and I walked the dogs. An hour later, I was sitting in a pew at the Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church. I came there to meet God, and— Dennis: And when you said you came to meet God, you showed up to surrender. Rosaria: Well, not at first. I mean, I'd love to say that! You see, you make me look good; but that's not true. At first, I was just really curious about sort of the: “What's the next step? Okay, I've read the Bible, now, more than once; and I've studied it. Now, what? Okay, we you go to church. Let's find out what's going on there.” It was very powerful, sitting under the preaching of God's Word. It was very powerful. Then, the prayer that came out after that—which really surprised me. It had nothing to do with my sexuality. It had everything to do with my pride and my gender, “Lord, could you make a woman, like me, a godly woman?” It was really not much of a prayer. It was more of a question, but God answered that question because God can do anything! Right?— you know, “Can these dry bones rise?”—right? Not by their own will—they cannot. Bob: Those two questions, as you sat listening to God's Word being preached—and this is over a period of— Rosaria: Years. Bob: —of years. Rosaria: Of years. Bob: But those two questions kept haunting you to a point where you finally— Rosaria: Right, I did. Bob: —had to throw in the flag and say, “Okay.” Rosaria: “Okay, Lord, I'm yours. I'm yours.” Bob: Tell us about that day. Rosaria: In some ways, it was very anticlimactic because of all the things that had preceded it. I was still kicking up a bit of a fit about: “Oh, poor me. I have to give up so much.” Ken said to me once: “Well, you've got friends in this church. Why don't you ask them what they had to give up to be a Christian?” I thought “Well, okay. Have at it!” I learned the most amazing things. I heard from women who had to bury their children, but not their faith. I heard about people who were struggling with all kinds of other sexual issues—pornography addiction. I mean, it was just everywhere. Everybody was a mess but not really. That was really striking to me. It seemed to me that, maybe, original sin is a comforting idea. See, I started out believing that everybody was good; but that's a hard world view to keep pumping up. But I started to think about it: “Well, what if we were all born this way? Maybe, that's a comforting thing.” Bob: Born in sin. Rosaria: Born in sin—that weighed differently. Everybody has something that's going to take them by the neck. I think that was in the context that I really learned the first rule of repentance. Repentance is not some kind of one-time pledge you do at the moment of conversion. Repentance is a daily posture of the Christian—daily, hourly, minute-by-minute. There is no shame in repentance. It is the kindness of God—it says in the book of Romans—that leads us to repentance. All repentance does—I've figured out—it's really simple! It just proves that God was right all along! That's not new information! Dennis: And that we were broken— Rosaria: And that we were broken. Dennis: —and needed a Redeemer. Rosaria: That's right. And there are a million ways to be broken. Dennis: Oh, yes. Rosaria: But you know what? That's not the point. Bob: When you surrendered, you started on a new path that was very different than the path that you'd been on. Rosaria: It was. It was. Dennis: And she said she lost everything except her dog. Bob: Yes. I mean— Rosaria: He's a good dog, too. [Laughter] Bob: It was the end of your relationship with— Rosaria: Sure, of course. Bob: —your lesbian lover, but it was the beginning of the end of your time at Syracuse. Rosaria: It was. I did not lose my job. I should say that. It's not that I—I don't want to make this out to be that I was victim—but one of the things that I realized, in my repentance—and you know what? I realize this every day, in repentance: “Jesus, it was You I was persecuting the whole time.” So, that puts a certain caution on a person; right? I wasn't really sure what God would have me do. So, it was the end of my time at Syracuse; but at the time, I didn't know it was the end of my time at Syracuse. What it was—was it, at the beginning of my research leave—my post-tenured research leave—and I wanted to study Christian education. I thought: “Okay, Lord, I'm a Christian. Where does a Christian profess—at a secular university or at a Christian college?” So, a very good friend of mine, who is now the President of Geneva College—he was faculty member at Syracuse and Ken Smith's son. His name is also Ken Smith—just to further confuse everyone who is listening. He was able to get me an adjunct position at Geneva College. Then, I also had a teaching position at the Center for Urban Biblical Ministry in Pittsburgh. I pieced together a research program. It was in that context that I met Kent Butterfield, who is now my husband. So, I really never did go back to Syracuse; but that was totally shocking to me. Bob: Did everybody at Geneva College know who was coming to town when you showed up? Rosaria: You know they did, but they were okay with it. Bob: They knew that— Rosaria: They were okay with it. Bob: —the post-feminist, post-lesbian— Rosaria: They sure— Bob: —convert was coming to town. Rosaria: That's right. That's right. Bob: And tell us—because you don't really go into a whole lot of detail about the romance between you and your husband, in the book. Rosaria: I will tell you this—that when you are a sexually-broken person, the most terrifying idea is that you would, then, be a married woman because the fear that I had was that I would pollute or break— Bob: You'd mess everything up. Rosaria: —I'd mess everything up. So, one of the most amazing gifts, in my life, has been Kent and his daily, biblical ministry that repentance of sin is one thing—it's really important! We do it all the time. It's our posture. Dennis: Right. Rosaria: Healing—sexual healing is a separate but related experience. It is fully by the stripes of Christ that we are healed—that when you are a sexually-broken person, your sexuality runs a little bit like water in a groove on a path. If you walk a path over and over again, that path becomes pretty deep. So, when the water floods, it has no place to go but make it almost a river, even. I'm amazed that, over the years, as we meditate and appeal to Christ's balm—because He took those stripes—those grooves in our path get filled up. What they get filled up by is the means of grace. You know, it's intended—God intends to heal us. He intends for His people to be healed. Now, I want to be careful about how I say this. I did not say that He intends for all people who struggle with same-sex attraction to become heterosexual. That is not what I said, and that does not happen. What—I mean, it happens sometimes; but what we know is that we relinquish our life to God, and He gives back what He will. But those grooves that are worn down from sexual sin—and that includes sexual sin of the mind and the emotions—although I will say that acting on your sexual sin makes those grooves deep and dirty really fast much more so. But the layers—the layers that God established to fill that hole, through the means of grace, is a powerful thing. So, by God's grace, I married a Christian! I married someone who became a Christian at the age of 17. He was and has been a godly man for many, many more years than I certainly have been a godly woman. So, he could always—and does. I always tell people that I married a pastor because I need daily, biblical counsel; right? And that's true. But he knows that it's not—Kent is not healing me—and it's not marriage, per se, that's healing me. It's the means of grace. It's Bible reading and Psalm singing. It's the sacraments. It's the fellowship of the saints. And of course, Christ was leading the whole time because sexual sin is predatory. We see that, very early, in the Bible when God says to Cain, “Sin is lurking at your door.” It's Genesis 4: “Its desire is for you, but you will have mastery over it.” I think, too often, people think that: “Oh, you are struggling with pornography. Well, hey, let's just get you married;” right? “Let's find a ‘sanctified outlet' for your sexual desire”—not getting the fact that a predatory sexuality is a totally different desire. So, when I started to examine, “Well, what is the root of my homosexuality?” I did not come up with homosexuality. In the same way, when I go to my garden and I want to know the root of my weeds, I don't come up with the yellow dandelion head. When I really probed what was at the root of my homosexuality, it was pride. It was pride in wanting to invent myself on my own terms. When I married Kent, I became a submitted wife. There's not a lot of pride—not in that—nor is there humiliation in that—but there's a sense of connection and a puzzle piece, now, that suddenly finds its home. Dennis: And could I say it for you? Rosaria: Sure. Dennis: Because you were a feminist— Rosaria: Yes, I was. Dennis: —looking for completion, looking to be all that— Rosaria: That's right. Dennis: —you were made to be in that rightly-related relationship with your husband, both submitting to Jesus Christ— Rosaria: That's right. That's right. Dennis: —you found— Rosaria: That's right; absolutely. Dennis: —you found the completion you longed for, as a feminist. Rosaria: I did, and that really gets us to that question that we haven't really gotten to. And that's the question about: “What do we do now? What if gay marriage becomes normative?” Bob: We're heading in that direction. Dennis: We are; and my question to you is, “Coach us here and help us think, as followers of Christ.” Rosaria: We have to—we have to—we have to realize that well, first of all, we are all called to a sanctified sexuality. That includes our celibate, single members of our churches. They are not second-class citizens. It is shameful, on our part; and I would say it is part of the—perhaps, the potential homophobia of the church when we do that to people. So, I think we need to value a sanctified celibate singleness. But when we talk about marriage, between a man and a woman, we need to talk about it in biblical terms, not moral terms. We can't just say, “The Bible says, ‘Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.'” You know, all that does is take the door and take it off the hinges and then wonder why the door doesn't stand up. The hinge is the Bible; and there are a couple of things that we, as Christians, need to be able to articulately defend. One is that marriage is covenantal. It's a relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by His Word. God does not make a covenant apart from the separate genders for marriage. So, it is covenantal. We also have to remember that the picture of marriage is Christ and the Church and that the completion factor—and it's the complement factor. It's C-O-M-P-L-E-M-E-N-T. It's not an “I”. We're not talking about trophy wives. We're talking about a man and a woman complementing—fitting together—in order to show the watching world a picture of Christ and the Church. We've likely not done that. Then, the other—and I know this is a controversial topic—not that we haven't talked about controversy, gentlemen. Bob: So, what's new; right? Dennis: Yes. Rosaria: So, what's new? But I think if you do not have historical Adam, if you do not have literal six-day creation, if you do not have Adam—made from the dust and then, Eve made from a rib of Adam—you have no biblical basis for a woman's submission to man. You have mutual submission. So, I think we've got to go back to the basics. I think we need to find a biblical defense for these things and I think that we need to stop fearing that people are going to call us stupid because that's what I did and look where I am; right? [Laughter] Dennis: Yes, and also, being afraid of being called a bigot as though you hate. Rosaria: Right—and we're getting there. We're getting there because I would absolutely say that to fail to defend homosexual marriage—that is the contemporary unforgiveable sin— Bob: It is. Rosaria: —in our culture. So, I think we are getting there; but again— Dennis: But we have to defend marriage with love. Rosaria: With love. So, that raises the question: “What do I do with my gay or lesbian daughter? And how do I interface with this person I love?” Let's just give a scenario. She was raised in the church. She made a profession of faith. “Now, she's lost to me. What do I do?” Those are really good questions. What you do is—you love your child. You love your child. Now, you do have to be careful, though, about this business about attending gay weddings. I mean, I think you can love someone without giving a false blessing because—think about it—you want to be there on the other side. You want to be able to be there, standing with a unified Christian witness; but you can still love. You can still enjoy your holidays together and be in each other's lives. Dennis: And they won't view it as a rejection that you didn't come to the wedding? Rosaria: Well, they may—they may—but we talked earlier about, “Where do you draw the line?” You know, you want to draw it carefully; and I can't tell you what to do. You know your family, and you know what to do. I'm just saying that because—“How do we defend marriage?” Well, one way that we defend marriage is to make sure that we are speaking in a unified voice about it. That's a hard one. I know. Dennis: It is a hard one—especially, if it was your daughter— Rosaria: Yes, absolutely! Absolutely, and so— Dennis: —marrying another woman and you drew the line and said, “Sweetheart, I want you to know I will love you to the end, but I will not bless this union because it doesn't represent what God commanded a man and a woman to merge together in a covenant with God.” Rosaria: Right. “But I'm not cutting you out.” Dennis: Yes. Rosaria: “I want you and your partner here for Christmas, and Thanksgiving, and”— Dennis: You know, there is a lot more we could talk about here; and Rosaria, I want to say, “Thanks for your book,”—how—this kind of sounds funny, coming from somebody who got a spanking in the eighth-grade English class—but how well-written it is and how entertaining—but also just allow us to peek into your life and to hear what transformation sounds like and what was going on in your soul, at the same time. There is a lot in this book that I'd recommend. I just want to say, “Thanks for being on our broadcast and hope you'll come back again someday.” Rosaria: Thank you. Bob: Well, I hope our listeners will get a copy and will read Rosaria's book. I think it's one of the best books I've read this year. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for a copy of the book, The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. You can order, online, if you'd like. Again, the website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us, toll-free, at 1-800-FL-TODAY, 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY”. Now, I want to say a special word of thanks to the folks who have made today's program possible—and that would be those of you who help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We are listener-supported. It's our Legacy Partners who provide monthly support for this ministry; and it is those of you, who get in touch with us from time to time, to make a donation. You folks provide the financial support we need to cover the cost of being on this local radio station and on our network of stations, all across the country. You defray the production and syndication costs for this program. And we're grateful; and we want to say, “Thank you,” for that. In fact, this month, if you are able to make a donation to help support the ministry, we would like to say, “Thank you,” by sending you a couple of resources. One is a CD that features a conversation with Joanne Kraft, where she talked about the radical sabbatical that she had for her family. They said, “No,” to all outside activities for a year just to bring some normalcy back into the family. Then, in addition to that, we'd like to send you Tim Kimmel's book, Little House on the Freeway. Again, we'll send both resources to you if you are able to support the ministry, this month, with a donation of $25 or more. You can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button that says, “I CARE”, to make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation over the phone, and ask about the “Busyness Bundle”. We'll send out these resources, designed to help you get a grip on the speed of life at which you are travelling. You can also mail your donation to FamilyLife Today. Our mailing address is Box 7111, Little Rock, Arkansas. And our zip code is 72223. Be sure to ask for the “Busyness Bundle” when you send your donation. And we hope you can join us back again tomorrow when we are going to tackle the question: “Do Christians have it wrong with our view of human sexuality?” Is what the Bible teaches just some antiquated idea for a bygone generation or is it something that ought to govern our behavior today?” We'll talk more about that tomorrow, and I hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2013 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ Guest: Barbara Craft From the series: Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ (Day 1 of 1) Bob: In 1994, a grandmother by the name of Barbara Craft heard about a way to use plastic Easter eggs to share the Easter story with friends, neighbors and children. She fell in love with the idea. Barbara: The idea that I like about this is you're getting the Bible in front of them—you're getting the Word of God. This is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. This is something—they may remember the donkey, the nails—but it's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, April 2nd. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We will hear some FamilyLife Today history today as we hear about the first time Barbara Craft shared with us the idea for what became Resurrection Eggs®. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. We have people who will pull us aside, from time to time; and they'll say to us: “You know who you guys ought to interview? You ought to have so-and-so as a guest on your program.” We often get some great recommendations from listeners who suggest someone that we ought to talk to. Dennis: We do. I agree. Bob: We try to dig and say: “Okay, what would our listeners be most interested in? What would be most helpful? What is the best kind of practical, biblical help we can give them related to marriage and family?” I remember when somebody on our staff, more than 20 years ago, pulled me aside and said, “Do you know who you ought to interview?” And they told me about a grandma, who was on staff, here at FamilyLife. I have to confess to you, I thought, “Yeahhh, we're probably not going to do an interview with a grandma who's on staff.” You know? 2:00 Dennis: This is not just any grandma. This is Barbara Craft. She is a woman of the Word. She is a wife, a mom, a grandmother who has taken her role seriously. When she found out about a way to be able to bring the reality of Easter into her family—but also the families of her neighbors—she jumped all over it. Bob: This was a craft project she put together: —a basket full of plastic eggs—each one with a symbol of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Dennis: There must have been 25 to 30 different eggs in the basket that she brought in. Bob: I just thought: “How are we going to talk about plastic eggs on a radio program? People can't see it. It's a nice idea—“ Dennis: Well, we always are interested in helping families have an outreach to others. Bob: And that's ultimately why we decided, “Let's go ahead and have Barbara on.” I remember thinking, in the back of my mind, “You know, if the interview doesn't go well, we don't have to use it.” Well, the interview went fine; didn't it? 3:00 Dennis: It went so well, in fact—just a little bit more to the story. I don't remember exactly how it occurred; but as we were interviewing her, it all made so much sense. Somehow, we put our heads together and said: “You know, we really can't put these eggs in a basket and ship them in the mail to listeners who want them. I would think people would like to have a dozen of these eggs of their own.” We thought: “What if you took a carton and filled it full of these eggs—with the objects that are in them that tell the story of Easter—that help a mom and dad, grandma / grandpa, or help a young family share Christ in their neighborhood with the world's largest Easter egg party? What if we had something like that?” Well, we put together a few of them— Bob: We put together 3,000 sets. Dennis: Were you out there? Bob: I was not out there. Dennis: I was out there—at our kids' junior high cafeteria. We worked all Saturday. I prayed over those 3,000 sets—I said, “Lord, God, I pray these don't end up in our warehouse for the next 20 or 30 years.” 4:00 Bob: We were putting little donkeys into one egg, and putting coins in another egg. Dennis: A rock representing the stone that was put in front of Christ's grave in another, and then, of course, there was the easiest one to assemble of all—which had nothing in it. Bob: That's right, the empty egg which represents the tomb. And here's the thing—we did the 3,000 sets; and we also made available a list so, if anybody wanted to create their own set, they could just—“Here, you need to find a donkey, and you need to find a little pebble, you need to find the coins…” and all that. “Get your own plastic eggs.” Well, we had people calling us saying, “We want multiple sets of those.” Those 3,000 were gone like that! That first year, we wound up assembling an additional 7,000 to send out to our listeners. Dennis: And I'm going to tell our listeners—I was not there on the second Saturday they had to be assembled. In fact, I think we found someone—a bunch of teenagers to be able to—[Laughter] 5:00 Bob: [Laughter] You scheduled a weekend out of town when you heard that was happening, as I remember. Well, today, we thought it would be fun for our listeners to go back and hear that very first interview, from 20 years ago, when Barbara Craft—that grandmother who was on staff, here at FamilyLife—came into the studio and brought the very first Resurrection Eggs that we had ever seen. [Recorded Interview] Dennis: Our table is covered with eggs here. It's really quite festive here, Bob. Tell us: “What do all these eggs represent, Barbara?” and, “How did you come up with the idea of teaching about Easter through an object lesson like eggs?” Barbara: Well, I didn't come up with the idea. I'm not a creative-type person. I'm one that sees an idea and I can go with it. I was in our home, teaching ladies how to do a craft project—using paper bags and paper twists—and making this soft, frilly basket that you see in front of here now. 6:00 Well, we were making the baskets. One of the girls mentioned this story of telling the Easter story with eggs. I had never heard about it. The next thing I knew she sent me a paper. It had just some Scriptures and things that you can use and put inside a plastic egg and tell the Easter story. Right away, I started making baskets for my neighbors—making sets of eggs from this craft project, and putting them in there, and just giving them out to whomever I could. Dennis: And what you've done here—you've composed a list that starts with, really, Palm Sunday and objects associated with that. You've just followed, chronologically, all the events of Easter and the verses that accompany them. You've selected objects that illustrate each of those events. Let me just pull out one of these eggs here—this one here—[jingling sound]—three dimes. Okay, Barbara, what does that represent? 7:00 Barbara: Well, that represents the 30 pieces of silver that Judas betrayed Christ for. Dennis: And out, beside that, you've got Matthew 27:3-5 so the children—or for that matter, the adults—are getting the opportunity to go to the Scripture to really study the Easter story. Barbara: Yes. Bob: I bet kids would have a great time figuring out what each thing inside the egg represents. Barbara: I did it in a Sunday school class of three- and four-year-olds at our church. I hid the eggs, and then they came in. Of course, there's that adventure of finding the eggs. All the eggs have a number on them. Then, we sat around in a circle; and they would give me their egg, starting with number one. We would open it up, and then I would ask them what it was. Again, this was three- and four-year-olds—they were so still. Of course, they are just so excited because they want to open their eggs. They want you to hurry up and get to theirs. 8:00 And then they wanted to hide them again. They wanted to do it again, and again, and the hour was gone. The idea that I like about this is—you're getting the Bible in front of them. You're getting the Word of God—this is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. It's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Dennis: I think there is a great need today, in Christian families, to do more than just crack open this Book; but to get our kids diving into it afresh—discovering their own insights and talking about the relevance of these objects in their lives today. “What is the symbolism of the nails and the verse that goes along with that?”—Christ's death on the cross. We have hope because of this—and bringing that hope to our kids—and maybe even using these eggs as an opportunity to lead your kids to Christ. 9:00 Barbara: And then, when you come to this empty egg—and again, that representing that He is no longer in that tomb—and then telling them: “Where is He today? He is seated at the right hand of the Father.” Dennis: I think it is so easy to just assume our kids understand redemption: “What sent Jesus to the cross? Why did He have to die?” It was our sin—our breaking of God's law—our fallen nature that sent Christ to the cross—and really created a need for God to step out of eternity, in His Son, to redeem us back to Himself and to write our names in heaven. Barbara: What you have just done is what I'm hoping that this project will do. Having something like this that you can see and touch—it is fun, and it has a powerful message to each one. Dennis: It really does. Barbara Craft, you have helped us, today, to be able to focus on that message. 10:00 I want to thank you for doing that because we can make Easter a profoundly simple and yet powerful spiritual experience—not only for us—but for our children, as well, and pass on a legacy to the next generation. Barbara Rainey: One of the things that I think is neat about this is that there are different applications for using it. For instance, you could use it like an Advent wreath at Christmas—and use one egg per day or one object and verse per day—leading up to Easter. Or you could take the ones and just use them for the particular event the week of Easter, starting with the triumphal entry on the Sunday before. Then, you could use the objects that happened on the Thursday before Easter, and then the ones that illustrate what happened on Good Friday, and you could walk your way through Easter week. I think that there are lots of different ways that a family could use this, depending on the ages of your children or how you wanted to celebrate Easter together. You could talk this through and try one one year and try another another year, and see what works best for your family. 11:00 Barbara: I think that is right—and if you have them all out—where they can see them during the day, and touch them, and play with them, or whatever they're going to do with this—then, again, they're reminded of the Scripture: “What does this sword represent, to me, about Easter?” Or you could do that sometime during the day—again, asking, “Well, what do you remember about that sword we talked about three days ago?” It's just that continual remembering and reminding that we're so often told to do in Scripture. We don't remember it the first time. Barbara Rainey: Right. Bob: During the Easter season, a family could use these eggs to really spark their family devotions, whether it's at breakfast every morning—having a different egg on the table and opening it up, talking about what's in there, reading the Scripture. Maybe, at dinner or after dinner—go in the living room and have it—but it would just be a great way to give children a visual connection with the story so they're not just hearing it told; but they're seeing it with the symbols, right there, before them. Barbara: Maybe, you could hide the egg. There's always that—children love that element of seeking and finding. So, maybe— 12:00 Dennis: What do you mean—“children”? [Laughter] I love to go on scavenger hunts. Barbara: Yes, I do, too. I do, too. You can hide an egg someplace; and whoever finds it that day could tell the story—that evening, at dinner. They could tell the Scripture that's with that. There's just a variety—I love hearing this creativity. That's what I am just hoping is going to come about as a result of this. [Studio] Bob: Well, we've been back in the archives, listening to a program recorded more than 20 years ago. Dennis: With a friend—a dear, dear beloved friend, Barbara Craft. Bob: It's good to hear her voice; isn't it? Dennis: It is. It is, and she couldn't have fathomed that this would go on to see more than 1.5 million dozen of these eggs distributed, all the way around the world. Bob: If she could have fathomed that, she would have come in and said, “Let me show you my copyrighted Resurrection Eggs.” [Laughter] Dennis: No, I don't think she would have. Barbara was all about outreach—wanting to share Christ with people. Bob: She was. Dennis: That's what prompted her in the first place. 13:00 Not long after we had Barbara here in the studio, we made a phone call to another grandmother. This grandmother may have been interested in sharing the eggs with her grandchildren; but it ended up sounding, to me, like that she was really excited about sharing them with her adult children. Bob: Yes. Her name is Cindy. She's a friend of Barbara Craft's. Barbara had shared the idea with her. So, we called her and said, “Tell us what you thought about the Resurrection Eggs.” [Recorded Interview] Cindy: When Barbara asked me if I would like these, I thought, “This is kind of hokey, but I like the idea.” And she had gone to so much trouble. So, I took them; and then, after I had them—when Easter came, I thought, “This is how I can do something in the center of my table after we come home from lunch.” I just decorated the table with them, and they didn't ask too many questions about it. When it was over, I just said, “We have a game we're going to play.” 14:00 I said: “The eggs all have numbers on them. As you turn them up, we need to try to decide, whatever is in the egg: ‘What does that represent that has to do with the biblical account of Jesus' resurrection?'” I was amazed at how they enjoyed it. They had a great time with it. So, that is something that— I know now I can have on my table every Easter, and it won't make any difference. It will be wonderful now when the little ones can come and participate. But no, I used it with adult children. And they didn't know what all of them were. It took a little while; but even one of my children—that is not so much in church now, but very well-trained—he enjoyed that. I thought, “That is not cramming it down their throat.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Cindy, I want to thank you for being on FamilyLife Today and sharing your story with us. Cindy: You're quite welcome. Bye-bye. 15:00 [Studio] Bob: That's a phone call we made 20 years ago to a grandma who was using Resurrection Eggs—not with her grandchildren—but with her adult children. Just in case listeners were wondering, the other voice they heard there was a young Dennis Rainey. [Laughter] Dennis: It did sound a lot younger; didn't it? [Laughter] There's another phone call we made to Leah. She had three daughters that she wanted to share the story of Easter with. Bob: And this became a tradition for her family. [Recorded Interview] Leah: I've been just mesmerized; and to this day, we've done it for probably four years—it's kind of a tradition. Bob: Now, how old were the girls the first time y'all did this? Leah: Probably two, four, and six. Bob: Do you do it on Easter? Leah: No, we kind of use the week before Easter to prepare our hearts to worship the risen Lord on Sunday. So, it's not just Sunday that we worship on and observe Easter. Dennis: Leah, how do you involve your husband, Gene, in the process of sharing the eggs with your children? 16:00 Leah: Well, one thing that is really neat to do is Gene will hide the eggs in a certain room, and have the children find the eggs. That way, it makes the story of Jesus' resurrection a treasure to find. If they find the eggs, that's their reward—the Word of God is their reward. It's just a very creative way to share the Easter story with children because they love to see what's inside of something. In one of the eggs is a nail. You read to your child about how they nailed Jesus to the cross. They would take that—and I remember my five-year-old—her face. She went, “Whoa, Mommy!” to see a nail. Then, they would place it on their hands—on the inside of their little palms—just to see what that felt like. [Emotion in voice] 17:00 I think that the nail is the most powerful item in the eggs—that visual that you can hold in your hand. You can feel it and to see it. It's very powerful. I think that it just brings it home, and it brings the understanding to a deeper level for a child. Bob: I want to talk to your kids. Leah: Oh, you do. Okay. Bob: Yes. Why don't we start with Rebekah? Rebekah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Rebekah. How are you? Rebekah: Fine, thank you. How are you? Bob: I'm fine. Listen, we wanted to talk to you. You know the special Easter eggs that your mommy has? Rebekah: Yes. Bob: Tell me what they are. Rebekah: Well, there are ten eggs, and they all tell the story. There will be a little paragraph that she says—that's a Bible verse. Then, we'll take turns reading it. One would be—it'd say, “He died on the cross,” and there'd be a wooden cross, or “Feed my sheep,” and there'd be a little lamb. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Rebekah, this is Mr. Rainey. Do you really like going through those eggs? 18:00 Rebekah: Yes! Bob: Can we talk to Rachel? Rebekah: Sure; one moment. Rachel: Hello? Dennis: Rachel. Rachel: Yes. Dennis: This is Mr. Rainey. How are you doing today? Rachel: Fine. Dennis: Your mom did something last Easter with some eggs. Do you remember that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Tell us about them. What do you do with those eggs? Rachel: Well, she'll read a verse, and we'll open it up, and see what's inside. Dennis: Like, what will be inside? Rachel: Like the cross where Jesus died, and like the empty egg. Dennis: Do you really like to do that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Why? Rachel: It's fun. Bob: Does it get boring when your parents bring out those eggs, or do you like it? Rachel: I like it. Bob: But, don't they make you sit down and listen? Rachel: Yes. Bob: But that's okay? Rachel: Yes! Bob: Tell you what. Can we talk to Sarah? Rachel: Sure. Bob: Okay, thanks. Sarah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Sarah? Sarah: Hi. Bob: How are you? Sarah: Fine. Bob: Are you? Do you know Mr. Rainey? Sarah: Yes. 19:00 Bob: Do you? Okay. Dennis: Hi, Sarah. This is Mr. Rainey. Do you remember the Easter eggs that your mom uses every year? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Do you like them? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Why do you like them? Sarah: Because they're fun to open. Bob: What kinds of things does she put in those eggs? Sarah: Money, the cross, a nail, the empty egg. Bob: You remember a lot of them. Sarah, can we talk to your mommy again? Sarah: Okay. Bob: Thanks. Dennis: Bye-bye. Leah: Hello? Bob: We'll probably have some listeners who will think about doing this with their kids at Easter time. Would you encourage them to? Leah: I really would! It's just such a simple but impactful way to share the Easter story—a creative way / a different way. Dennis: Well, Leah—thanks for being on the broadcast. Leah: Oh, sure. Bye-bye. [Studio] Bob: Well, again, it's fun to go back and listen to some of the early phone calls we made when we were first talking to moms about the idea of a set of eggs that they could use during Easter week to tell their children the story of the resurrection. 20:00 Dennis: It worked back then, and it's working today. We just decided we would take the resource and re-release it with a 20th Anniversary Edition. I think what was already excellent, and outstanding, and a whole lot of fun has really been moved up a notch. It's cool because the booklet that goes with the eggs is available both in English and Spanish. Bob: In fact, look at the back of your carton there—Resurrection Eggs—can you read what it says there on the back? Dennis: Not upside down. Bob: Look. Read that out loud to our listeners. Dennis: Are you talking about the English, of course; aren't you? Bob: Huevitos de Resurreccion™—so Resurrection Eggs. The carton comes with both English and Spanish so that listeners can use it in either setting. Dennis: Bob is flaunting two things there—one, his experience from San Antonio— Bob: Huevitos. 21:00 Dennis: There you go; and secondly, he's also reminding me of my Spanish and the grade I received. Bob: What grade did you get in Spanish? [Laughter] Dennis: It was in eighth grade—that was the year. Gratefully, they did pass me on to the ninth grade—but not because I excelled in the language of Spanish. Bob: I don't think you've said the grade yet. What was that grade that you got? Dennis: It was south of “D.” [Laughter] Bob: We, of course, have Resurrection Eggs in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. Our listeners can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to order a set of these eggs to use, this year, at Easter time. Or if you live near a Christian bookstore, many Christian bookstores have Resurrection Eggs. I know Family Christian Store has them—I think Lifeway and Mardel have them. There are even Walmart®s, across America, that have Resurrection Eggs this year at Easter—just a great tool to use to share the story of Easter with children, with neighbors, with relatives. 22:00 Find out more. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. The information about Resurrection Eggs is available right there. You can order from us online. There is also information about the resources Barbara Rainey has been creating that can be used at Easter time to, not only share the story of Easter, but to beautifully decorate your home for the holiday, as well. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. There is information about these resources there. You can order from us, online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY; 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY.” Now, let me say a special word of thanks to those of you who are regular listeners to FamilyLife Today and have listened long enough to know that what we're all about, as a ministry, resonates with what you believe, as a family. 23:00 We are here to provide practical biblical help for your marriage and your family. We believe that if we can effectively develop godly families, those godly families can change the world, one home at a time. And we appreciate those of you who share in that mission and who help support the mission through your prayers and your financial contributions. If you can help us with a donation right now, we'd like to send you, as a thank-you gift, a set of three prayer cards—one that will give you specifics on how to pray more effectively for your husband, another card on how to pray for your wife, and then a third card for the two of you to use together to pray for your children. These are our way of saying: “Thank you for your support of the ministry. We really do appreciate your partnership.” Simply go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says, “I Care.” You can make an online contribution; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—1-800-358-6329. Make a donation over the phone, and ask for the prayer cards when you do that. 24:00 Or request the prayer cards and mail a check to FamilyLife Today at P O Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Tomorrow, we'll hear more from people who have used Resurrection Eggs as a way to share the news of Easter with friends and family members. We'll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Gone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 1) - Hank ParkerGone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 2) - Hank ParkerGone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 3) - Hank Parker FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Legacy of Faith Guest: Hank Parker From the series: Gone Fishing with Hank Parker (Day 2 of 3) Bob: Hank Parker is an award-winning, world champion fisherman. In the process of chasing that dream, Hank looks back and realizes he neglected something even more important. Hank: I was not the husband that God called me to be and the result was total devastation. The Bible says you love your wife as Christ loved the church and died for it. It is not contingent—God tells the wife what to do, and God tells the husband what to do. So my behavior is not contingent on how well she does her job, and God showed me that clearly. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, June 8th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. It is easy in the pursuit of our dreams to neglect what's really important in our lives. Hank Parker talks about that with us today. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I have been inspired this week. I think I can do it—I think I can become a world class bass fisherman. [Laughter] I mean— Dennis: Bob— Bob: Yes? Dennis: Bob, I've seen you fish. Bob: Well— Dennis: Bob, tell the audience what kind of fishing pole I gave you. Bob: We have been fishing together up on the—what was it? Dennis: The White River. Bob: It's in Arkansas. They're—what are the fish called? They're trout? Dennis: That's what they are called. They have fins. Bob: Right Dennis: They live in water. Bob: Right. Dennis: That is correct. Bob: And there was a nice man in the boat who took those fish off that hook for me—I appreciated him a lot! Dennis: But tell them about the pole I gave you. It was a kiddie pole— Bob: It was a Zebco®. Dennis: —a little pink kiddie pole, that was about two feet long and— Bob: We're going to post on our website, at FamilyLifeToday.com, a picture of the fish I caught with that big fishing pole— Dennis: I was—that was where I was going. Bob: —because I caught a pretty good-sized fish. Dennis: I wanted to tell— 2:00 Bob: It was the big fish of the day. Dennis: It was the big fish of the trip! I got to introduce Hank Parker. Welcome back to Bob Lepine's Outdoor Program. [Laughter] Hank: The big-fish man caught it on a kid's rod and reel, and it was two feet long!I've never done that—that's pretty special. [Laughter] Dennis: Hank is a world champion bass fisherman. He has a TV program called Hank Parker's Outdoors—also has a hunting program with your sons. Share with our listeners about that broadcast. Hank: Okay. My fishing show is Hank Parker's Outdoor Magazine, been running for 34 years. Then, for 10 years now, I've been doing a show with my two older sons called Hank Parker's Flesh and Blood. It's a hunting show over on the Outdoor Channel. We've had a lot of fun with that. Bob: So, I can look at myself in the mirror and know that I can't make it in the NBA—[Laughter]—okay? I'm not tall enough / I can't jump that high. I can look at myself in the mirror and know the NFL is out for me. Can anybody be a world class fisherman? 3:00 Hank: Absolutely! And that is what is so cool about our sport. I was talking earlier with some folks about the growth of high school fishing. These kids that are not athletic / these kids that don't necessarily qualify for any type of team sport—the water is level. Whether you're a little girl, a little boy, whether you're tall—it doesn't make any difference. You know, the water's level; and fish are not partial to anybody—they're non-discriminate. Bob: Well, the guy that we went fishing with that day, who was in the boat—who took the fish off the hook for me? [Laughter] I saw what Dennis paid him at the end of the day. He's making a good living doing that. He's doing alright; you know? Dennis: There are a lot of days when you don't go to work though, Bob. Bob: Okay! Dennis: Alright. I want you to talk to our listeners—we've got other stories that I want you to tell—but I just—for a moment, talk to moms and dads about doing something like fishing or hunting with your son / with your daughter; because it really is a great way— 4:00 Bob is kind of kidding about this—but it really is a great way to bond and build relationships with your kids. Hank: I have the opportunity—when I do fishing seminars, people will ask questions from time to time. I take every opportunity that I can to spread the word that fishing will break down a lot of barriers. In my life, it was everything. But almost every kid that you will ever see catch a fish—whether they are 2 years old or 80 years old / old kids— everybody catches a fish smiles / it's fun. But you know, we all are guilty—I'm guilty of driving the kids to school—the bell is going to ring at 8:15, and we've got to hurry and hurry. You kind of force feed a conversation when the mood's wrong. Man, you can take your kid out on a riverbank—or in the boat and sit on the pond—just let him or her just open up. Let the conversation flow. 5:00 The quality of the conversation you can have in the right atmosphere breaks so many barriers that we try to force on our kids. Communicating is not just talking. To be able to really reach your children, you've got to work to create an environment. Fishing will help you do that. I promise you—it will help you get that. Bob: Have you thought about why that is? What is it about fishing that causes people to just to relax and have conversations that they might not otherwise have? Hank: I just think it calms your nerves. It is very soothing / it is no pressure—you don't have to make a hoop / you don't have to be physically gifted to get it done. Man, you just throw a bobber out there. Fishing can be really sophisticated and complicated—a lot of electronic equipment we use and some of the stuff in techniques and methods. But that's really not what fishing is all about. That's just a specialized technique for a very limited number of the people that participate in the sport. 6:00 Fishing is about families / fishing is about good times. Fishing is about sharing—fishing is about being with someone / interacting—you want to be with. And that's really what fishing is all about—to take your kid and be able to put your arm around him or her—just breaks those barriers. They're under no pressure. You know, our kids today—the academic demands are so hard on them. If you don't fit in to play team sports you get made fun of. So they're under pressure—they're constantly being critiqued because they can't do this. I know how that feels. All of a sudden, you put them in an environment where there is none of that—no pressure at all. Here we are, just having a good time. I think it just breaks down those barriers that allow them to open up. Boy, if you can ever get them to open up, then you can really start to communicate. 7:00 Dennis: One of my favorite moments, here, on FamilyLifeToday—Bob will know when it was before I finish saying the name—but it was a tribute given by RV Brown. R V Brown gave his father, who was—lived to be in his nineties, I think—didn't he, Bob? Bob: Yes. Dennis: And R V was one of 18 kids? Bob: Right. Dennis: He gave his dad a tribute. You know what he reflected on as he spoke to his dad in that tribute? Hank: No. Dennis: He said, “You took me fishing,”—Willy Fish? Bob: He called his dad Willy Fish Brown. Hank: How ‘bout that! Bob: Yes! Dennis: Did you go fishing with your dad? Hank: I did! Early on, before my dad got so consumed, we fished. It was so special—it was incredible. If I can, I'll tell a really quick story. I've had all these goals in my life. I was the first angler to ever win the Bassmaster Classic and the B.A.S.S. Angler of the Year—I was the first guy to ever win the Grand Slam. I've had some pretty good achievements. 8:00 A lot of times, people ask me a question about: “What is your greatest moment in the outdoors?” The greatest moment for me in the outdoors—my youngest son, Timmy, who loves the turkey hunt. I'm a big-time turkey hunter; so I've got all these rules: “We do not talk in the turkey woods. You can break a limb and maybe you're an animal; but if you talk, you are a dead give-away.” We were sitting on the riverbank on the Broad River in South Carolina. This big gobbler was gobbling. Every time a bird—if you are not familiar with turkey hunting—in the morning, when they wake up, in the spring of the year, they gobble. He's up in the tree and he's gobbling. Every breath / every little tweety bird that makes a sound—he is trying to out-gobble. Timmy pulls up on my shirt—he just tugs my shirt. God had painted one of those incredible sunrises, and there was steam coming off the water. He was so overwhelmed with that—he had to tell me. He pulled on my shirt. I looked down; and he said, “Daddy, I love you.” 9:00 I was about to cry and the turkey was. It was just so special. But his little heart was so full of gratitude and just overwhelmed with being in that environment. That was my greatest moment in the outdoors Dennis: When you do go fishing or hunting with your kids—well, it requires that you be all there. There is no competition with a screen or with the phone. It's just a relationship between a father and a son, or father and a daughter, or for that matter, a mother and her son. Bob: Now wait, are you telling me you have to leave your phone in the car?—or you can't take it into the woods? Dennis: I promise you, you wouldn't go turkey hunting with Hank Parker if you brought your cell phone on you. Bob: I was thinking about the similarities between the two of you, because you're both turkey hunters. I think one of the differences is you've actually shot a turkey; haven't you, Hank? [Laughter] Hank: Self defense. Bob: Because, Dennis goes out every year; and every year, the turkeys have been safe. [Laughter] Have you ever shot a turkey? Dennis: I have, Bob. But in recent years, they've not been in danger. [Laughter] No; there's no doubt about it. 10:00 You've had quite a career—winning all these accolades / inducted into the Bass Fishing Hall of Fame and so many things that have come your way. You indicated that there was a bit of a drift in your life—even after you came to faith in Christ—that began to change at some point. Would you kind of bring us up to date on what took place in those years that led you up to that? And then, how did that change occur? Hank: There was a tremendous revival when my dad got saved. Then, I got saved; and I became very legalistic. I went through the motions and I did what I felt was expected of me. I worked bus routes to go seek kids to bring them to Sunday school, out of duty, not out of my heart. I was pretty tough on my family. I was so legalistic, at some points in time, in my life—I was just bogged down in it. 11:00 I was married to a wonderful lady, and we had five children. I had gone to California on a little fishing trip; and I met her in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where we were buying a house. She tells me she wanted a divorce. It rocked my world beyond—I didn't see it coming—should have. I was a part-time husband, at best. I, of course, blamed it all on her. It was completely her fault, in my mind; until one day, when I was shaving, God said: “Look in the mirror, and you'll see whose fault it is.” Dennis: Had you let career so dominate your life? I mean, because—to be really good at something, whether it's basketball, golf, or fishing—you've got to be all there / to be focused. Hank: I didn't even know—to be totally honest, I did not know how consumed I was with competitive bass fishing—I had no idea. I promised my kids—my kids were growing up—and their mom was an awesome mom. She was just great to those kids, and she worked hard at it. 12:00 But those kids had gotten to be 12 years old / 10 years old. They wanted to go race golf carts and go-carts, and they wanted to go climb trees, and deer hunt and squirrel hunt—do things that moms are not normally willing to do. Some moms are good at that, but their mom—that didn't interest her—so they needed their dad. So I promised them—I said, “If I ever win the World Championship again, I'll retire”; and I did. In 1989, I won the World Championship the second time; and I retired. I was 36 years old. But it wasn't until I retired that I realized how consumed I was. My every waking thought was about the next lake / my next strategies—what I am going to do. All of a sudden, the thing that hit me the hardest when I retired is: “Man, my mind's cleared; because I'm not thinking about the next tournament.” It wasn't until then that I realized how consumed I was; but as far as my marriage was concerned, it was pretty much too late. 13:00 I came home to try to fix things—in which I didn't know there was a problem in the marriage—I knew there was a problem in my parenting / that I wasn't there enough. My kids would stand at the door every time I'd leave and cry. You know: “I've got to quit doing this.” So, when I retired, I did realize how consumed I was with the sport. Dennis: Would people in your church, where you attended, would they have said: “Yes; Hank and his wife are doing fine. He's very successful.” Hank: Absolutely! No one in the entire world would have thought—my children didn't see anything—no one knew anything. My wife had just grown so frustrated with my being gone constantly and had no confidence that I would ever change. She had just resolved in her heart that I would never be there for her—so she was moving on. She had got to that point and wasn't any changing her mind. For four years, we tried—for four years, we tried. 14:00 Dennis: —tried to push back against divorce. Hank: Tried to fight it. But I look back—you know, I would blame her in my heart, but God showed me clearly it wasn't her—it was me. Had my priorities—you know, people—I hear it all the time—when the Bible says you love your wife as Christ loved the church and died for it; and then wives submit to your husbands. It's not contingent—God told the wife what to do, and God tells the husband what to do. My behavior is not contingent on how well she does her job. God showed me that clearly. So I can't blame anything on her. I have to take the blame, because I was not the husband that God called me to be; and the result was total devastation. Bob: I want to ask you a really hard question: “If I could take you back ten years before your wife said, ‘I want a divorce,' and I could put a path in front of you, and I could say: ‘This one leads to bass championships and world recognition—the Hall of Fame. 15:00 “'This one—you'll make a living for your family, doing what you enjoy doing. You won't get the endorsements / you won't be in the Hall of Fame, but you'll live it out and things will stay intact.'” Could you pick? Hank: I could pick in a heartbeat. There's no doubt I would have chose to take the job to make a living and keep my family intact—no doubt. Dennis: It was devastating to you. Hank: You know, I don't tell this very often—I don't know that I've ever really told it—but I walked away / I didn't take anything. I didn't take part of the home—I walked away—I didn't have a place to live. I lived with my son in an apartment for a year, because I wasn't capable of making payments. I left everything. I had about two million dollars worth of debt—that's all I left with—I didn't have anything. But I wasn't able—people: “Why didn't you fight for what your fair share was?” I wasn't able to fight—I was devastated / I didn't want to live. 16:00 I had gotten to the point where the papers—when I got those papers, I cannot tell you what that did to me. But they're on my desk—and the first time in my whole life I was afraid of my own self. I wasn't thinking clear. I went to shut the door of my office. I have a trophy shelf there with all my trophies. I looked down at the bottom, and I saw all my kids in a picture. I fell on my face in my office and I said: “God, You've got to give me something I don't have. I'm at the lowest point I've ever been of my life.” Now, through this whole four years of fighting and trying to save my marriage, I was so angry with God. I didn't pray—so I'm the Prodigal Son now—I've been gone / I've been in the hog pen. I fell down on that floor and the Father came. The Holy Spirit put His arm around me and said: “I'm here. I've been waiting on you.” It was a revelation that I had never experienced before or since. 17:00 God loved on me and gave me something inside, and this suicidal idea that I had left me. I don't say I didn't ever have struggles after that; but I never, ever got to that low, low point ever again. I realized how much He loved me and all those legalistic years were now behind me. I served God because I thought this is what I needed to do for a lot of years. But the last 16 years, I have served Him out of pure love. I realize how much God loves me and that it all changed in just a second. Bob: Hank, if there's a guy listening and he's thinking: “If we can just gut this out for five years / if I can just stay focused on the business and get this thing, I can be at the top of the game. And then I'll turn back around; and we can have it all, as a family”—what would you say to him? 18:00 Hank: “It doesn't work!” This is what I did wrong, and I know this. My wife did not know how much I loved her—I never conveyed—I never put my arms around her and said: “Baby, let's work this together. Here's my schedule; is this okay? Can we do this? I love you. I want to make this for you.” I never did those things—“I'm the big tough guy / I'm the world champ—I'm the man. You're going to do it my way.” You can't say: “I'm going go off and fish these next five years and, then, I'm going to come home and fix it,”—I thought that—it didn't work. Dennis: And what did work—was finally emptying yourself. It's the only way a marriage can work—is with a husband and a wife who decide to surrender to Jesus Christ and to what He has for them to do. And there are some duties we have to do that mean we can't outrun our wives and our children at home to accomplish something out in the world. 19:00 Early in our ministry, I had to decide: “Was I going to outrun my wife, Barbara?” I don't know, Hank, why I could see something at that point that you couldn't see in bass fishing; because I could have made the very same decision, because the ministry can be intoxicating—people telling you how you've encouraged them / you've ministered to them. But something spoke to me and said: “If you attempt to go do those things, and leave your wife and your children in the dust, it's not going to be good—the outcome was going to be bad.” I've made a lot of wrong decisions in my marriage / in raising our family. But in that one situation, I saw clearly that: “If you are going to make whatever it is an idol, in place of Jesus Christ—not surrendered to Him—and take care of Job One, which begins at home, you're headed for big time trouble.” 20:00 Hank: You know, I think, with me, I never really thought about anything. I just went at it so hard that I did not stop and think about the partnership of marriage. I didn't ever think I was doing anything wrong. I thought: “Man, I'm being a great provider—I'm giving them all these things.” I never really felt that I was doing anything wrong. That's part of my problem—was not reading the Bible / staying in the Bible and allowing God to talk to me. You know: “I'm going to help God. I'm going to show Him how I can do things,”—it did not work for me. I'm not an authority, but I can just tell you—in my life, I messed it up because it was about me. Had I been in the Scriptures and had I been getting daily lessons—and treated my marriage as a partnership, where I die to self and take half of her and she half of me—we wouldn't have a divorce. 21:00 I want to tell you—I would rather die than I had to go through a divorce. It was the most devastating, painful failure that I'd ever been through in my life. Dennis: So to that person, who is listening right now, who is maybe on the precipice of jumping, you'd say, “Don't do it!” Hank: Absolutely! “Do not do it! At all costs / at all costs, save your marriage.” Bob: If we can help, that's what we're here for. Our goal, here, at FamilyLife is to provide help and hope for marriages and families. I'm thinking, Dennis, of our Weekend to Remember ® getaways—and the couples who have come, who have lost hope; but who hear a message at the Weekend to Remember that God uses to turn their marriage around. It doesn't always happen—there are some couples who come and the breakthrough doesn't happen. 22:00 But for a lot of couples, the Weekend to Remember getaway is the turning point for a marriage that has been headed in the wrong direction for a long time. They get rerouted and they find themselves in a new place on a new path. They have a fresh hope for their marriage. I just encourage our listeners—if you've not attended a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, go to our website at FamilyLifeToday.com to get more information. We still have a handful of these getaways happening this summer. Tomorrow in Texas—in Austin and in Houston—we've got getaways kicking off; and then continuing through the summer—in Arizona / Las Vegas—other getaways taking place. You can find out more about the Weekend to Remember, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call if you have any questions at 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and the word, “TODAY.” 23:00 And if for some reason you can't get to a getaway, and you're in a desperate spot in your marriage, give us a call. We can recommend resources—we can recommend articles you can read / programs you can listen to—things that will hopefully give you a fresh perspective on God's design for your marriage and how it can, not just survive, but how it can actually thrive. And by the way, we should say, “Thank you,” to the listeners who support this ministry, financially; because you guys are a big part of all that God is doing through the ministry of FamilyLife. You make it possible for what happens here to be heard by more people around the world through more devices / through more means than ever before—more people visiting our website / more people attending our events. You make that happen every time you donate to support this ministry. You are extending the reach of FamilyLife Today, and we are grateful for your support. 24:00 You can give a donation today, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate; or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we are going to hear about the Parker family—the Parker boys. We want to hear about what your sons are up to—have got some great stories to share with you tomorrow. I hope you can tune in as we continue our conversation this week with Hank Parker. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. 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Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Loving My Gay Parents Guest: Caleb Kaltenbach From the series: Messy Grace (Day 1 of 3) Bob: Caleb Kaltenbach's parents divorced when he was young. His mom came out as a lesbian; his dad came out as a gay man. That gave Caleb a unique perspective on life. Caleb: I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these—I'll use quotations, “Christians”—holding up signs, saying, “God hates you!” I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, “Mom, why are they acting like this?” I was about nine or ten—somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, “Well, Caleb, they're Christians; and Christians hate gay people.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, July 2nd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. Caleb Kaltenbach grew up in what I think we'd all agree was a somewhat messy family situation. He had to learn, eventually, how to apply what he calls “messy grace.” Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. You know, every family is messy at some level; right? But there are— Dennis: No doubt. I was just withholding the answer there because— Bob: It's self-evident; isn't it? Dennis: Wow! I mean, you get six children, two imperfect parents; I mean, what are you going to get? You're going to get some—some messiness. This is where I think the Bible has all kinds of relevance, because it's about messy people. It's about imperfect people / imperfect stories and how God, in His sovereign majesty, works out a story that honors Him. Bob: Yes; I love what Matt Chandler says— 2:00 —he says, “It's okay not to be okay; it's just not okay to stay there.” [Laughter] That's what the story of redemption's all about! Dennis: Well, we have a guest with us today who has quite a story. Now, I just want you to know—as a listener, I don't know what you're doing; but set it aside—because what you're going to hear is going to be riveting—I am confident of that. He has written a book called Messy Grace, and it is subtitled: How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction. Now, that is a mouthful! Bob: Yes. Dennis: We have with us Caleb Kaltenbach. Welcome to the broadcast. Caleb: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. Dennis: Caleb, this lead line over the title of your book, How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others—wow! Take us back to the home you grew up in. I mean, I've heard a lot of stories; but I'm not sure I've heard one about a pastor who came from that kind of background. 3:00 Caleb: I was raised in Columbia, Missouri, and Kansas City—actually, I started out in Columbia. Both my parents were professors at the University of Missouri-Columbia and at local schools there—taught subjects like philosophy, law, rhetoric, and English literature. When I was two, they got a divorce; and both of them entered into same-sex relationships. My mom went into a 22-year-long monogamous relationship with her partner, Vera—she was a psychologist. Now, my dad on the other hand—he had several different relationships. He never had one relationship that lasted. I actually—I didn't even know about my dad until I got to be college-age—maybe just graduated from college—but I kind of always had my suspicions; I don't know. But I was raised by three gay parents. Bob: This is at a time that is unlike today, when these relationships tended to be more closeted. Were your parents “out” about their sexual preference? Caleb: My dad was in the closet. My mom and her partner, as I said—they did go to Kansas City. 4:00 They were very loud and proud, and very out. They were on the board of directors for the Kansas City chapter of GLAD. They were activists. They took me with them to Gay Pride parades, and bars, and clubs when I was preschool age/elementary age. I remember going with them to activist events. I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these—I'll use quotations, “Christians”—holding up signs, saying, “God hates you!” If that wasn't offensive enough, they were spraying people with water and urine at one of the particular parades. Dennis: Oh! Bob: Oh! Caleb: I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember just, right now to this day, I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, “Mom, why are they acting like this?” I was about nine or ten—somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, “Well, Caleb, they're Christians; and Christians hate gay people.” That stuck with me. My whole childhood, I was raised to believe that. 5:00 I saw that when AIDS was developing in America and spreading, and we were learning more about it. Many of my mom's friends contracted it. I remember one man, named Louis, who was a young man—his family was Christian. They already didn't accept him, because he was in a same-sex relationship. When he got AIDS, they really didn't want to have anything to do with him. We went and visited him in a hospital one time. Dennis: Yes; you describe a scene in your book that is pretty— Caleb: Right. Dennis: —pretty amazing. Caleb: Yes; and the most disturbing thing was—obviously, it's disturbing to see somebody die from AIDS, if you've ever seen that—but seeing his family being so nonchalant, while they were reading their Bibles, lined up against the wall, like they were waiting for a firing squad to come get them. That, to me, was unforgivable at that time. Dennis: They were not next to his bed— Caleb: No. Dennis: —holding his hand, speaking love to him. They were kind of huddled together in another section of the room, not caring for him at all. Caleb: No; and they wouldn't even talk to us. I remember my mom looked at me and she said, “Hey, Christians hate gay people.” 6:00 Bob: So you grew up with that as your view of Christians and Christianity. At the same time, you're going to elementary school. You had to be the only kid in your school who had two moms. Caleb: Oh, I didn't tell anybody that I had two moms—I didn't tell anybody. Even as a young kid, I wondered about my dad; but I didn't tell anybody because, even though, at that age, I didn't think there was anything wrong about that relationship—at the same time, I knew that I was different. I did not want to get made fun of. Bob: So you just would tell folks you lived with your mom, and your mom and dad were divorced; and that was it? Caleb: And I would go back and forth; absolutely. Dennis: Was it 50-50? Caleb: No; I spent most of the time with my dad. Dennis: I've been looking forward to talking with you; because I'm seeing children today grow up in homes, where they have two same-sex parents. I'm just wondering: “What's happening in the life of that child? What's that child thinking/feeling?” What was going on in your life, emotionally, if you can think back and articulate kind of what you were thinking and feeling? Caleb: I remember Vera, my mother's partner. 7:00 We did not get along at all, almost from Day One, when I was a little kid. There was a real jealousy/competition factor with her and my mother. I remember learning, at a very young age, that Vera really hated men. Even though I was a little boy, I was still a man—representative of that. If I had time to take you through her past / my mom and dad's past, you would totally understand where they would get that hatred from. I even understand it today. I don't think that's the right response, but I understand how that could be a response. This is where I think parenting is so incredibly important on two levels. Number one, parents have got to learn that they have to deal with their issues; because whatever their burdens are, when they don't deal with them and seek healing from them, they pass them onto their kids. Their kids now have to bear the burdens that their parents do. But also, our kids—and I'm very mindful of this with my own kids— 8:00 —are always watching me: and how I handle stressful situations and how I handle life—because they model their achievement of emotional balance through watching me and their mother. We want to do that in a Christ-like way so, when they see that life is difficult / that life is tough, they see us turning to God. They don't see us raging, or ignoring them, or doing things like that, or being abusive. Dennis: So back to the question, Caleb. As a little boy, growing up—obviously, you said you spent most of your time with your dad. Caleb: Yes. Dennis: Were you ashamed that you had two mommies? Caleb: I wasn't ashamed; I did not want to be made fun of. They never came together to any events. I knew that there was something wrong. What was really ironic was, even if you were to look at Vera and my mother's relationship, Vera took on the role of the man in the relationship. Then my mom took on the role of the woman. Even within their relationship, they still mirrored the image that the Creator set up in the covenant of marriage. Even though it was not the right image, it's always been fascinating that, even within that, we still mirror what God originally set up. Does that make sense? 9:00 Dennis: Yes. Bob: Your dad, you said, was a bachelor. Caleb: Yes. Bob: He's who you spent most of your time with. At what age did you start to become aware of the fact: “Hey, my family's different; I've got two moms.” You're starting to understand human sexuality for yourself at—I guess, 10, 11, or 12 years old—whatever age it was. When did you start to put the pieces together that the family you were in was unusual? Caleb: When I was in elementary school, because I would see everybody else talk about their parents and so on and so forth. I started watching my dad. I knew that he did not have a girlfriend. I knew that he spent time around one person in particular. He had different people over, and then I wouldn't see them for a while. There was an ebb and flow that just was not ever consistent—there was hardly any consistency. By the time I got to high school, my worldview was very whacked-out. I mean, I did not have a Christian worldview, obviously. Bob: But when you grow up in that situation and that's your normal, a lot of young people just think: “This is normal. 10:00 “It may not be the same as everybody else's, but my situation is not a wrong situation.” Caleb: Yes; but the thing is that there's no standard then. The Bible provides a standard in holy living—sanctification—and how we should live our lives in every aspect / in every domain of our life. Dennis: And you didn't have that. Caleb: No; I didn't have that. My worldview had no standard; it had no basis. It was always shifting. It was like culture—culture is always changing, because people always change; because there's no focal point. When you follow Jesus, He's the focal point; He's the standard; He's by which you measure everything and make your decisions. Bob: Did you have any sexual ethic?—any personal sexual ethic? Caleb: No; I didn't. I mean, I never had premarital sex or anything like that. I never got into anything destructive; but I was of the mindset that anything you wanted to do, as long as it didn't hurt anybody, was okay. You know, more of a Modern Family-type mindset, I guess you would say. Bob: Right. So what your mom and dad had chosen to do— 11:00 —you looked at that and said: “That's their choice,” or “That's who they are. They're just being true to who they are.” Caleb: “That's good for them.” I've never experienced same-sex attraction. My mom would always ask me a lot, “Well, it is okay, Caleb; it is okay.” Even as a young kid, I would say: “I've always liked girls. I'm sorry; I don't…” Some of the times, I felt like my mom was trying to talk me into it—you know, again, they were activists. They were very justice oriented. Dennis: Growing up in this home, where you didn't have a healthy relationship between a mother and a father, in a biblical sense, and without a standard—I was just wondering how you handled—you sure didn't have the culture shoving it down your throat as it does today; but you weren't confused, it doesn't sound like, at all. Caleb: No; I thought it was okay for them to do whatever; but you've got to understand, from the very beginning, my parents raised me differently. I mean, I'll just give you an example—I don't write about this in the book—but one of the first movies I ever saw, as a kid, was An American Werewolf in London. Bob: Wow. Caleb: Still scares me today, thinking about it. 12:00 But you think about that!—there was no standard; there were no boundaries. That's one of the things I realized about my childhood—that there were no boundaries. There were boundaries with my parents, but they're very long-stretched. When I would step over one—usually, when I would question their sexuality or their choice to be in a same-sex relationship, even at a young age—the consequences were very swift. That's how I grew up, so I had that same justice within me. I got invited to go to this Bible study when I was in high school—led by a high schooler for high schoolers. I thought: “This is perfect! I'm going to go, and I'm going to pretend to be a Christian. I'm going to be a ninja-Christian. I'm going to go in there…” Bob: [Laughter] A ninja-Christian? Caleb: A ninja-Christian. Dennis: Now, hold it! What's that? Caleb: Well, you know: “I'm going to go in there and I'm going—I'm going to pretend to talk the lingo. I'm going to learn about the Bible and dismantle their faith with my questions,”—that was my plan. I never owned a Bible. 13:00 I grabbed a New Revised Standard Version, and I didn't know what that meant. I just figured they revised something, and I took it. [Laughter] You've got to understand—I had never been in a Christian household before in my entire life—like an evangelical, conservative Christian household. Imagine me walking in, and the first thing I notice on the wall—I looked at my friend that came with me and I said, “Why are there framed pictures of sheep, and lions, and Bible verses all over the house?” I looked at my friend and I said: “Is this part of the deal? If I turn Christian, do I have to get a sheep picture?” [Laughter] I mean, because I had never seen so many framed pictures of sheep before in my life! [Laughter] Dennis: I want to take you back to the Gay Pride parade that you marched in as a boy. You gave some—really, I can't imagine, from a descriptive standpoint—having somebody spit on you, and toss water, and, as you said, urine on a little boy and have so many people hating you because you were marching in a parade on behalf of the whole LGBTQ community. 14:00 What would you say was the most hurtful and hateful thing you experienced, as a boy, growing up, from the Christian community? I'm picturing you going to this Bible study—it's like I would think you would be a ninja, going into that thing; because you'd had some harm done to you by the Christian community. Was there anything done, as you grew up as a boy, that you would characterize as the most hurtful and hateful thing? Caleb: Yes; one time my mother and I were driving through Kansas to visit my family. There were these Christians on the street corners, holding up signs. I remember my mother's car was a purple RAV4. You've got to understand—she had bumper—she was very loud and proud—she had bumper stickers on there, like: “Lorena Bobbitt for Surgeon General” and stuff like that. I mean, “Graduate of Thelma & Louise Finishing School.” I mean, you'd spot it a mile away; you know? I remember, my mom didn't do anything to them. 15:00 She pulled up, and they saw her stickers. They started cussing at her, and they started yelling at her and spitting. I just looked at my mom. She started crying in that moment, because she felt humiliated. I remember thinking about that, and I remember— Dennis: How old were you as a boy? Caleb: I must have been close to middle school. It was not my best moment—I rolled down the window and flipped them the bird. I got a hold of their newsletter. They put that on the front of it, saying, “Look at our persecution.” Hopefully, that's gone out of print. I just remember my mom and her reaction of them immediately judging her without getting to know her, and just the humiliation and the tears, and just the pain that she had. It was so raw that, when I looked at a Christian, I thought about that. Bob: So when somebody comes to you and says, “Do you want to come over to a Bible study at So-and-so's house?” 16:00 You were thinking: “I want to come blow this thing up. I don't want to come and be a part of this group. I want to come and dismantle it.” Caleb: I was ready for war; I was ready for war. Bob: And yet, you walk in. There are Bible verses and pictures of sheep all over the place. Caleb: Yes. Dennis: You were probably thinking about slaughtering some sheep at that point. [Laughter] Caleb: I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know if we were going to sacrifice a chicken downstairs in the Bible study. I didn't know what would happen. So we go down there, and we're all reading through 1 Corinthians. I'm in 1 Chronicles, and they're all reading verses from Paul. Then I read a verse about somebody getting slaughtered—not a sheep though—a person. They said, “Well, Caleb, where are you?” I said, “Well, I'm in 1 Chronicles.” “Oh! You're in the Old Testament!” I said: “So, I guess there's a new one. There's updated 2.0!” or something like that. I was so embarrassed, but I kept on going back; because I'm like, “I'm not going to let these people get me down.” Dennis: Did they know where you came from? Caleb: I think a couple of them did. Definitely, when I didn't even know there was a New Testament, they were like: “Oh look! Somebody that's not a Christian right there.” 17:00 Bob: Wow. Caleb: Some of the attitudes changed and softened towards me; because, when I first said that I was in 1 Chronicles: “Is there a New Testament?”—you know, a girl said, “Yes, the New Testament” as if I was supposed to know that. “I'm sorry. I must have one of those new Bibles,” you know? I didn't know. Bob: Right. Caleb: But I kept on going. It's funny; I was expecting to disprove the worldview of Christianity, but I found Somebody very different in the Gospels than what I had experienced on the street corners or the hospital rooms. Dennis: You'd actually had a young lady—prior to this Bible study; hadn't you?—who had given you what you thought was a love note? Caleb: [Sigh] Yes. That was painful. It was nice and painful at the same time, because she—you know, for elementary age, she was hot. I thought she dug my chili, but she didn't. It was a Jesus note. I remember opening it and thinking to myself: “Oh, really? A Jesus note?” I was hoping for: “Caleb, you're debonair. You're all this and more.” 18:00 You know, she explained the gospel to me. I threw away the note and told her I'd think about it. But even to this day, I still remember it; because she's probably one of the only Christians that I had a positive experience with. Actually, when I think about it now, she actually took the time to sit down and to write that out, as an elementary age schoolgirl—writing that out, letting us know about the gospel. That was huge when I think about it, and I tell my kids about that all the time. Bob: Okay; so if you could go back and have a do-over of your middle school/high school experience, and you could coach the Christians in your school on how to—how to reach out to a guy like you, what would you tell them to do differently than they did? Caleb: I would say: “Number one, don't assume that everybody else is at the same spiritual level that you are.” Bob: Yes. Caleb: I mean, even when I preach every Sunday, I don't make that, you know— Bob: —assumption. 19:00 Caleb: —assumption; exactly! Everybody's at a different spiritual level. The second thing that I would say is: “Don't automatically engage in a Bible study, where you think that everybody obviously knows: ‘Hey, we're going to go to 1 Corinthians,' ‘We're going to go to…Paul,'—this kind of thing. If you have a new person, you have no idea if they're new or not.” “Don't assume that everybody's on the same page as you when it comes to politics,” because I wasn't whatsoever. I was raised by two extremely liberal parents. I was nowhere near, and they immediately brought up politics. They immediately started trashing politicians, and so on and so forth. You've got to understand—my mother was very political! I can be very political. This was a huge turn-off; because I'm like: “Okay; these people are assuming I am where they are. These people just are moving, and I'm lost. I don't even know that there's a New Testament. They're ripping people, politically, that I know that my mom likes. 20:00 “So far, it feels like the same thing, except I'm sitting down with the enemy. It feels like I'm sitting in the Trojan horse almost”; you know?—that's what it felt like in that moment. Dennis: Just listening to where you'd come from, I'm amazed you became a believer. It had to be God chasing you down—and His love and His grace. Caleb: It was the sovereignty of God, absolutely; 100 percent. Dennis: Yes. Caleb: I mean, I learned——the more that I studied Jesus, Dennis, I learned that He had very deep theological convictions and expectations for how we should live our life. He also had very deep relationships with people—who are far from God and not like Him, which, I guess, was everybody was not like Him—but still, He pursued people that the religious culture would not. He pursued people that even secular society wouldn't either. He really marched to the beat of His own drum. Dennis: Yes; you tell the story in your book about how Jesus approached the woman caught in adultery— 21:00 Caleb: Yes. Dennis: —and how the religious community didn't rescue her. They were ready to stone her. Caleb: No. Dennis: And how Jesus reached out and protected her. I think that's who you encountered in that Bible study. You ultimately found the Jesus Christ of the Gospels and of the New Testament, who fulfilled the Old Testament. He became flesh and showed us what real love looks like and what God's love for us is today. Bob: Yes; we've reflected, often here, on what John says about Jesus in John 1:14, which is that He was the picture for us—He is the revelation of the Father—but it says He's full of grace and truth. He's full of both—there's grace and there's truth. I think that's what we're having to learn to wrap our hearts and heads around, as followers of Jesus today: “How can we be full of truth?” 22:00 Well, you say it: “How Can We Learn to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction?”—that's the subtitle of the book you've written—called Messy Grace. I'd encourage our listeners to get a copy of it and read your story—read the things you've learned along the way, and how you've coached us today to do better as we engage with people who don't think the way we think about issues. Caleb Kaltenbach's book is called Messy Grace. We've got it in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order a copy from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy. Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329—1-800-FL-TODAY—or go online to order at FamilyLifeToday.com. We want to take a minute here and just say a quick word of thanks to those of you who are, not just regular listeners to FamilyLife Today— 23:00 —and while we're glad to have all of our regular listeners tuning in—thank you for doing that. We want to give a special shout-out to those of you who make this program possible. I don't know how many listeners realize this; but in your community, there are a small number of people who have made it possible for you to hear what you've heard today. They are friends of this ministry, who will, either on occasion or on a regular basis, support FamilyLife Today with a donation. During the summer months, we often see a decline in the number of folks we hear from, who are helping to support this program. If you're a regular listener—if programs like the one you've heard today are helpful for you and your family / if you think this is an important conversation to be having in your community—would you join the FamilyLife® team and help make this program possible on an ongoing basis? You can do that by giving, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. And you can mail your donation to us. 24:00 Our address is FamilyLife Today, PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about the difference between accepting someone and approving of someone; because, as we'll hear from Caleb Kaltenbach, that's an important distinction. I hope you can be back with us again tomorrow. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
Gone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 1) - Hank ParkerGone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 2) - Hank ParkerGone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 3) - Hank ParkerFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Life's Next Chapter Guest: Hank Parker From the series: Gone Fishing with Hank Parker (Day 3 of 3)______________________________________________________________________________ Bob: When Hank Parker's marriage dissolved, he was hurting. When we're hurting, we can do or say things we wish later we hadn't done or said. Hank remembers getting some very wise counsel. Hank: I had a great Christian friend that came to me. I was living with Hank, Jr. When you're hurting, you tend to vent. This man came up to me and put his arm around me; and he said: “I know you're hurting, and I know you're living with Hank, Jr. I'm not accusing you of anything, but I just want to tell you—if you are venting anything about your marriage to your son, that's his mom; and you're making a horrible mistake.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, June 9th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll talk today to world champion fisherman, Hank Parker, and hear some of the lessons life has taught him as he has learned to walk with Jesus. 1:00 Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You know, we have some listeners who have been tuned in—and we've been talking about hunting and fishing this week—and really talking about family and— Dennis: Yes; I have to say, Bob, there have been some pretty gritty conversations with Hank Parker. Bob: It has been, but I know we have listeners, who are going: “I'm just not an outdoor fish-and-hunt kind of guy, and I've just never been into that kind of thing. Can a guy just go do it by himself?” They're wondering whether this is something they ought to give a whirl to; and if they should, how do they do it? Dennis: Well, they just need to find someone who can mentor them a little bit, because no one just walks in the woods and becomes a hunter. And frankly, being a fisherman as well—it helps to find somebody who knows how to do it. Would you agree, Hank? Hank: Well, we live in a unique time. It is incredible how much information is on the Internet—so you can get it all. 2:00 You can go to any of the archery companies: “How to,” “Where do I start?” “What do I need?” Any of the boat companies can tell you how to get started fishing. You can go to the game and fish sites, and they can tell you where all public fishing is at. It's all out there; so it's so easy to find if you're an Internet searcher. That doesn't fit me very well, but for most people they go for that. [Laughter] Bob: But if a guy's a novice—he's never done any of this before—and he's thinking: “Well, maybe this weekend we should go do something. Maybe I should take my sons fishing.” Hank: Absolutely, without a doubt. You could go and you could hit your local fish and game website. They tell you where there's public fishing / where there's public access to launch boats—anything you want to know, it's all there. Bob: Well, if anybody should know, the guy we're talking to this week should know; right? Dennis: No doubt about it. 3:00 He's won the national championship of B.A.S.S. fishing twice / in the Hall of Fame of bass fishing as well—and has his own outdoor show called Hank Parker's Outdoor Magazine. Hank: That's it. Dennis: I've had a chance to be a guest on his show. Bob: In fact, how could people watch the episode of you and Dennis? Is there some way they could see that? Hank: You know, I don't know—that will air on Pursuit Network next year / it aired this year on the Outdoor Channel—so I'm really not positive. You can go to our website, HankParker.com, and you can get information on where that show will air or how to obtain a copy of that show. Bob: Okay. Dennis: Yes; there you go / there you go. So here's my question for you, Hank—and by the way, Hank Parker's married to Martha, has four sons and a daughter, eleven grandchildren. I saw them all on Hank Parker's Outdoor Magazine—he took them fishing together. It looked like a man in an anthill with all those kids fishing. 4:00 Hank: I have to clarify also—Martha has a wonderful daughter and two sons—so we're a blended family. I have five and she has three; collectively, we have eleven grandkids—how awesome is that? Dennis: Oh, that's great. I'm glad you did correct me there. So, if I said to you: “Hank, you had one place to go fishing. Conditions were going to be perfect—you could go anywhere in the world—where would you go and why?” Hank: Oh, man, that is so tough. I have those decisions that I have to make each year. [Laughter] Dennis: —because you can go wherever you want to go! Hank: I do; I literally do. This year, I chose my favorite place to fish in the whole wide world—is Venice, Louisiana, on the Gulf of Mexico. You guys went on a cruise and left from the port of Louisiana. You went right by my fishing hole at the southwest path, where the Mississippi river meets the Gulf of Mexico. Dennis: So are you fishing for red fish? Hank: Big, giant red fish on bass tackle—it is unbelievable. Dennis: I think I've seen one of those shows. 5:00 Hank: Oh, it's so much fun. Dennis: You caught a lot of fish doing that. Hank: Oh, we caught 200 on top water one year. I took a group of guys from the FCA down there—Fellowship of Christian Athletes. Man, we had so much fun catching fish. We caught over 200 in the group. Dennis: Unbelievable. Well, let's talk about family for a moment. You've kind of broken your life into three chapters: One, the family you grew up in—where you had a dad who struggled with alcoholism / had a dramatic conversion to Christ—which ultimately led to your conversion, as a young man, later on. And then, you began a career in fishing. Ultimately, your success cost you your marriage. You turned a corner, though, upon that point and headed toward the third chapter in your life, which you've said has been remarkable—15 years of walking with Christ, and serving Him, and seeing Him at work in your marriage and your family. 6:00 Take us back to that turning point, the divorce; and help us kind of find our way through this third chapter in your life. Hank: Well, you know, I learned, early on, when I went through all those hard times, I had a great, great Christian friend that came to me. I was living with Hank, Jr. When you're hurting, you tend to vent. This man came up to me and put his arm around me; and he said: “I know you're hurting, and I know you're living with Hank, Jr. I'm not accusing you of anything, but I just want to tell you—if you are venting anything about your marriage to your son, that's his mom; and you're making a horrible mistake. You need not lean on him, as a friend; because he is not your friend—he is your son. He still needs a dad. He needs a strong father figure—he needs a man that has respect for his mother. You need to be on your game to be able to have an influence that will be positive on that young man.” 7:00 It was some of the best advice I've ever gotten. It was at a very low point in my life, and I was guilty of what he was assuming I may be doing. It changed everything about the way I started behaving and prioritizing—trying to be the dad I needed to be—even though things were not the best in my life at that period of time. I just started trying to be the godly father that I needed to be, in spite of my condition. Dennis: You shared with me about your sons and your daughter—and just how well they seem to be doing and walking with Christ. You know, there are a lot of things we, as parents, can do in terms of our failures; but in the end, if they're doing well, all is well with us. Hank: Yes. 8:00 Dennis: You agree? Hank: Yes; that is absolutely true. Hank, Jr., has always been the model kid. He and I raced together—we were best friends / he's my firstborn son, and we just had this incredible relationship. Spiritually, I watched him grow. I have five children, and every relationship I have is completely different—it's amazing. But Billy—you know, we got into racing. I was good buddies with Dale Earnhardt. We were down at the farm one weekend, and the following Monday, I had to go pick up a race car that Earnhardt [sold] to Hank, Jr., that belonged to Dale, Jr. So, we got involved in the racing business. We started out—we just started racing Late Model at the little local track right out of Charlotte, North Carolina. Then, that grew to NASCAR® and NASCAR's All Pro Division. That went from NASCAR's All Pro Division to NASCAR's Grand National Division. Hank, Jr., ran a couple of events; but primarily, raced in what was called the Nationwide Series last year. I'm not sure what it is this year—the [Xfinity] Series, I think. 9:00 Dennis: But there was a moment you described in your son's life, where he had a chance to go big-time. I remember just sitting on the edge of my seat, listening, as you—as a dad—shared about a choice that your son made. I think, in order to share the story, you need to share a little bit more of the context for your family and kind of why this choice was heroic. Hank: Well, I'll kind of try to disguise—keep the names of the innocent out of it—to keep from discriminating against the race owner. Billy was just an incredible NASCAR All Pro driver and Late Model driver. He built his own cars. One of the NASCAR former heroes of the sport had a son that was racing. He went to several of the races and saw Billy run. He was starting a Grand National team of his own, and he asked Billy to be his driver. 10:00 It was just a dream come true. Everything was just unbelievable for Billy, and he was excited. He loved racing and was very talented at it—very, very talented. Dennis: This was one of the top racing companies on— Hank: It was one of the top racing personalities who started a brand new team. But he worked with one of the top four of all NASCAR teams—the driver did. He took Billy—and this is funny / I'll have to tell this story really quickly—Billy asked me, before he was going into the meeting with him—he said: “Dad, I think he may offer me the job to drive the car. How much should I ask for?” I said: “Well, don't ask for anything. Let him make an offer.” He said, “Well, what do you think?” I said, “Well, I wouldn't drive, Billy, for less than $50,000.” “Ah, I don't know if he'll pay me that.” I said, “I would demand $50,000 if I have to win it.” “Ah, I don't know, Dad.” I said: “Billy, don't say anything. Let him make the offer.” 11:00 Man, I was on pins and needles waiting for that meeting. To make a long story short, when it was over, I think he paid him a $150,000 plus half the winnings, you know. Of course, the driver volunteered that. That was a big deal. You know, you come from working in the garage, and eating bologna on white bread, and all of a sudden, you're making enough money to eat filet mignon. It was a big deal for Billy. We were all excited for him, knowing that he was going to really make his mark at NASCAR. Hadn't been racing very long and this driver said: “I'm going to take you over and introduce you to the big boss. We're going to have a little meeting.” Well, when they get there, they're in a room that looks like a galley of a billion-dollar yacht—all teak wood and gigantic office. They have this sheet over something in the center of the room. 12:00 They pull the sheet off of the easel that it was covered with the photograph—or the drawing—of Billy getting the [word muffled] handed to him by the other driver, and it was an alcoholic beverage. Billy said, “I can't accept this.” They said: “Well, you know, we'll give you time to think about it. We didn't mean to spring this on you.” He said: “No; I don't need time to think about it. My grandfather was a drunk; and my dad is very much against alcohol, and he's taught me,” and he said, “I just—I'm not comfortable doing this, and I never will be. So it's not about time. It would be unfair to you guys to say, ‘Well, give me a day or two,' because I don't need any time.” Billy didn't volunteer all that to me, and I may not have it exactly the way it all went down; but from what I got from the meeting was—of course, it ended his career—and I later did talk to him, one on one, on the phone and I said: “Billy, I can't believe that this has happened to you. 13:00 “It's unfair that you're going to get pushed out because you—” He said: “Dad. Dad, Dad, wait. It's not unfair, and it's not anything to do with the race team. It's not anything to do with the alcoholic company. It's a God-thing. I have a decision to make, and I'm going to make the right one. It doesn't have anything to do with anybody but me and the Lord.” He said: “I know what I'm going to do, and I'm not sad about it. I'm going to move on.” That was pretty much the end of his racing career. He did have a wreck two weeks or three weeks after that occurred, and that ended him for sure; but he was doomed by rejecting that. And of course, he knew he would be when he did it; but he did it because it was, in his heart, the right thing to do. Dennis: One of the top sponsors in NASCAR— Hank: —one of the top teams. Dennis: Yes. 14:00 He walked away and walked out of the meeting, where there was the ultimate, in my opinion, in peer pressure. Hank: No doubt about that. He is the one son that I would not have expected that from. I would not have been surprised—Hank, Jr., had had a similar circumstance and had already stood tall; but I didn't really know Billy would be that strong. It just—I cannot tell you, as a dad, how proud I was of his decision. Bob: Have you had to face similar situations? I mean, when I think of B.A.S.S. fishing, you take a cooler out when you go B.A.S.S. fishing; don't you? Hank: All these B.A.S.S. fishermen face this. Just several years ago, when ESPN bought B.A.S.S., you had to wear a beer sticker on your jersey; and you had to put one on the windshield of your boat. There were several guys—Jimmy Houston for one, and I'll give Jimmy a shout-out—Jimmy refused it. 15:00 But he had sponsorships to fish the tournament. So, he fished the tournament without the patch and without the sticker and didn't get points. But he had made a commitment to his sponsors that he would be there, so he participated even though he got no points for the Classic. Dennis: Wow. What would you say would be the thing you did to contribute to your son's character to making a courageous decision like that, Hank? Hank: That is the most flattering part of all of it—is I think that my son knew my heart. He cared enough about my convictions / that he respected them enough that it became his convictions. I've always tried to be transparent with my kids. I never, ever wanted to be a fake. My kids know my good, my bad, and my ugly—they know I'm real. They know I'm real, and that was the most flattering part; because I wasn't sure— 16:00 —he's a young man with a lot of ambition, and a lot of crossroads, and you're eager to make a mark in life, and you love the sport so much—I just wasn't sure that he was there in maturity, and I wasn't sure that he had those respects. I think, if it's all said and done, I think all I was with him was real; and he saw that. Dennis: Well Hank, I've really enjoyed our conversation we've had this week with you. There's been one other assignment that I've been wanting to give you. It's something you've done a good job of as you've told your stories about your mom and your dad—it's the fifth commandment—that we are to honor our mother and our father. A number of years ago, God placed a burden on my heart with my parents that I needed to write a tribute to them. I waited too late with my dad; he died suddenly at the age of 66; but I didn't wait too long with my mom. 17:00 I wrote my mom a tribute. The only mistake I made was not taking it to her and reading to her, face to face. But I think what I'd like to do is—if I had the ability to seat your dad, right now, across the table from you—and I said: “Hank, I want you to turn to your dad, right now, and give him a tribute—not for the years that were wasted—but for how he redeemed, ultimately, what he was given when he placed his faith in Christ and turned away from alcoholism—and not being much of a father, or a husband, or a citizen—he became God's man.” Could you give him a tribute? Hank: I could. I sure could. 18:00 I would say to my dad: Dad, I know you were bogged down with and shackled by an addiction that you didn't want to be; and when you had the chance, you accepted Jesus Christ and you turned your life around. You cared more about my soul than you cared about anything else, me and my brother. I'm so grateful to you that you prioritized our salvation above yourself / above anything that you wanted in this whole world. And I thank you so much for living the life, those five years, for living the life—having the attitude, the spirit, and being patient with me. I thank you that you loved me enough. You prayed for me, you were patient, and you were so incredibly persistent. You never let up; and I'm so grateful, Dad. 19:00 I would not be the man I am and I would have no hope. I was destined for hell—I had a bad attitude. You knew it all, Dad; but you loved me enough, you stuck with me. I have two great fathers that I'll spend eternity with. I thank you, and I love you; and you're awesome. Dennis: I don't know if folks in heaven can hear things; but I have a feeling, if they can, your dad has a big grin on his face right now. I'm confident, Hank—just on the amount of time you and I have spent over the past year together—there are a lot of reasons for him to be proud of you. You're about the King's business, representing Christ and proclaiming Him. I really admire your heart for introducing other people to Jesus Christ—the person, the Redeemer, the God-Man—who died for you and your father and who made a difference in your dad's life and yours as well. I'm grateful to God for you and the man you are. Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. 20:00 Hank: Man, I just appreciate the opportunity to be here. What an awesome program you have and what a beautiful facility. If people have never seen this before, they need to come to Little Rock to tour. This is awesome. Dennis: They sure do. I hope you'll come back and bring Martha next time. I'll treat you to my blackened salmon out on my deck. Hank: I may just hold you to that. [Laughter] Bob: It's worth a trip—I'll vouch for it; okay? [Laughter] And I'm glad you mentioned tours, because we would encourage folks: “If your summertime plans have you coming anywhere near Little Rock, swing by and just let us know that you'd like a tour of our headquarters. We have tour groups who tour the office regularly—get a chance to see the studios and see all that's happening, here, at FamilyLife. If we're around, we'd love to say, “Hi!” to you. So, if you're coming this way this summer, stop by FamilyLife headquarters and ask for a tour. Or call ahead if you'd like—just call 1-800-FL-TODAY and let us know you're coming. We'll make plans to welcome you when you get here. And there's no cost for the tour—we're always glad to have folks stop by. 21:00 And I mentioned earlier this week about dads and sons going through the Stepping Up® video series together. We've heard from listeners, who said, “That sounds like that could be a good idea,” especially if you have teenage sons and you're looking for a way to connect with them and with their friends this summer. Our recommendation is that a group of dads and a group of sons just plan to get together once a week—have a cookout / do something fun together—and then watch a 30-minute video from the Stepping Up series / spend some time talking about what you watched. We have workbooks that'll help guide your discussion. I think what you'll find, if you do that—a lot of lessons that your sons / your young men can learn by going through this series with you. And you'll learn a few things yourself, no matter what your age is. 22:00 Find out more about the Stepping Up video series when you go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or give us a call if you have any questions at 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Now, this weekend, in Houston, Texas, and in Austin, Texas, we have FamilyLife Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways taking place—hundreds of couples from all over the state of Texas, and actually, a lot of folks flying in for the weekend—a great getaway for husbands and wives to relax, refresh, laugh together, and be reminded of what the Bible teaches us about how to build a stronger, healthier marriage relationship. That's what the Weekend to Remember is all about. I would just like to ask you, pray for these couples who are going to be going to a Weekend to Remember. 23:00 Just take a minute, right now, and just say a prayer for them—that they will sense God's presence this weekend and that they'll hear Him clearly as we seek to present what the Bible has to say about marriage and family. That's our goal, here, at FamilyLife. We want to effectively develop godly marriages and families—we believe that can change the world. And we owe a special “Thank you,” to FamilyLife listeners, who do more than just listen—those of you who go, online, or give us a call, or mail in a donation—we're grateful for you. You really make the impact of this ministry happen. You enable us to take this message to more people every day in more ways because of your financial support. If you've never made a donation to FamilyLife, and you're a longtime listener, how about today being the day you join the FamilyLife team with a donation? You can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Or mail your donation to us at FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. 24:00 And we hope you have a great weekend this weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church. And I hope you can be back with us on Monday. Next week is all about dads, with Father's Day coming. We're going to talk about how important / how powerful a dad can be in his family's life. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.______________________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
To find out more about the Wisconsin Great River Road please check out the website www.WiGRR.comfind out more about at deanklinkenberg.com.Bob: [He’s] the author of a couple really cool books – actually, a handful of really cool books – dealing with the upper Mississippi River and the Wisconsin Great River Road, as well as the entire Great River Road. Dean Klinkenberg [is] my guest this month on the Wisconsin Great River Road Podcast. Dean, I appreciate you spending some time with us to talk about the beauty that is the Wisconsin Great River Road.Dean: Thanks for having me on. I love talking about the river.Bob: Dean, you currently live on the Mississippi, in St. Louis, but you spent some time up in La Crosse, Wisconsin. What was the start of the love for Dean Klinkenberg and the mighty Mississippi River?Dean: I blame it on La Crosse, mostly. I went to college there; I moved there in 1982 to start college. Being that close to the Mississippi, I took pretty good advantage of the opportunities to get outside and experience the river when I lived there. I had a couple favorite activities that I did often. I loved hiking around in the bluffs and going to places around Grandad Bluff that I wasn’t supposed to go to – of course, don’t do that [because] you’re not supposed to do that – and riding my bike down to the river to the favorite spots for me to sit and brood. I just loved going down to the river and watching it swirl and watching the animals and the birds. The first time I canoed on the Mississippi was also from La Crosse. For some reason, my friend and I started off by paddling upriver. We weren’t the brightest at that age, but we made some progress and got up to some old beach, then we stopped and swam and had a little lunch before we paddled back. It just left a big impression on me from those years in La Crosse.Bob: It is a beautiful area. I moved here in 1992 thinking I’d be here a year or two, and here it is 27 years later and I’m still enjoying La Crosse, for sure. One of the books you wrote is called, “Small Town Pleasures,” and I’m assuming there’s probably some small-town pleasures here in Wisconsin.Dean: There are a lot. It’s one of the things that I think sets the Wisconsin Great River Road apart from other areas. It’s mostly small communities. You have places like Fountain City and Alma. [They are] these small, little river towns that have done a great job of maintaining their river identities and staying really connected to the river. Because you have so many small communities, you have a lot of small-town businesses. You have a lot of businesses that are owned locally. I like patronizing those small, local businesses as much as I can because the money I spend tends to stay in those communities. And you’re not sacrificing the least bit of quality. These are all great places, so it’s fantastic. People are generally nice and making sure you have a good experience. It’s just great all around.Bob: You’ve had the opportunity to travel the entire Great River Road multiple times, I’m assuming.Dean: Multiple times. I was just thinking about that today. There may be 50 to 100 miles of pavement I haven’t driven yet. I’m kind of losing track of how many miles I’ve driven just along the Great River Road since I started doing it, but I know it’s over 125,000 miles.Bob: You’re driving that much and spending that much time on the Mississippi. Do you have a favorite spot in Wisconsin on the Great River Road?Dean: Where I am at the moment. Just wherever I am at that moment. It’s hard to pick a favorite spot. I will say that that stretch of the Great River Road from Prescott down to Sandy Hook is among my favorite drives anywhere. Picking a couple of favorite spots along there, it’s really hard because there are so many that I enjoy.Bob: The other book that you wrote, “Road Tripping Along The Great River Road,” talk a little bit about that and some of the cool road trips that there are here on the Wisconsin Great River Road.Dean: One of the reasons I started writing these books is I was discouraged to see people who had heard so much about the Mississippi and went out of their way to drive to the banks of the river, took a look at it, and then drove on somewhere else. I wanted to give people more of a context for what they’re seeing and help them understand why they needed to spend more time along the Mississippi. All my books spend a fair amount of time describing local history for each of the communities along the river, and then giving people different ideas of things that they can see and do while they’re there. I know people like to take day trips when they drive along the Great River Road and then they zip back up to the Twin Cities or Madison or wherever. You need some time to really get to know it well. The Mississippi begs you to slow down. To really get to know it well, you need to take your time and explore it slowly, spend some time in the communities, spend a couple nights here [and] a couple nights there. You can do weekend trips over portions of the Wisconsin Great River Road, particularly around Lake Pepin. The Wisconsin communities along Lake Pepin would be great for a weekend. I know people tend to rush through those. I’d like people to set aside two or three days to do that. Traveling and being along the Mississippi is what was making me happy.Bob: It’s awesome when you can find something you love to do and make some money at it at the same time. You’ve written a bunch of books, which is really cool. You’ve written nonfiction as well as some fiction books. Tell me about how we can find out more information about you, Dean.Dean: There are two websites that I maintain. Mississippitraveler.com is the site where I have travel information about places along the Mississippi. I also write fiction. I write mysteries that are set in places along the Mississippi. Two of them are in print: Rock Island Lines and Double Dealing in Dubuque. The third book, which should be out next year, is tentatively called “Letting Go in La Crosse.” That will be topical, sort of the Wisconsin Great River Road. Those you can find out more about at deanklinkenberg.com.
Show Notes Urgent needs for income can cloud the judgement relating to company cultural fit.Scott and Andrew discuss strategies for working through the process of recovering from desperate needs for employment.Don't miss these Topics:How to stay true to your values in challenging situations.Taking inventory of your work styles and matching with chosen employers.Focusing your mindset on your strengths to perform well on interviews.Building the right branding presentation.Identifying gap jobs.Creatively managing finances. Expanding the gap between virtue and despair. The type of people to surround yourself with.Resources (including affiliate links)Resilience EpisodesThe Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment063 The Number One Secret to Job Satisfaction iTunes: Rate and ReviewRaw and Unedited TranscriptView Transcript00:00:02 - 00:05:05welcome to job seekers radio. I'm Andrew and I'm Scott. This production is meant to provide you the listener meaningful support to fight great careers careers faster. And that's whether you are working or not by the way. This episode today is brought to you by the anatomy of a networking conversation. It's an e-book and a free resource that you can download at job seekers radio DOT COM in today's show we talk about balance balancing cultural fit and the urgent need for for income not uncommon very common. Both of us have had situations where income was necessary very very interesting. I think that's true of most Savar. Listening to income is necessary I. It's just the urgency. That may or may not be really a driver for some people. I think one person that I know who decided to move to Portland for whatever reason he was between jobs and he and his family decided to move all the way across the country to settle here in Portland. Income was not really eighty. Something he needed urgently he had enough in savings that he knew he'd be safe for while still it doesn't last forever. He wasn't in the one percent that isn't able to spend and all the money's making on interest so you know a job is needed but then was also talking to someone recently who is badly under employed at the moment and she she is running out of money and so the the the need to get a full time job where she's really supporting herself is urgent and she's finding herself looking at potential jobs that are beneath her skill. Set that pay less than what she's looking for and there's a lot of other stuff going on that really digs into herself confidence. So that's part of what is driving this discussion today. Whether you're employed or unemployed the need for money Israel your many people if you have obligations and you're staring down at your bank account balance and you need a job then take the next job. Right comes along and there's really nothing wrong with that. I realized that nobody wants to take a job. They're not going to enjoy and I think that's healthy perspective. In fact I think that's healthier here than those who say. Oh well I can just work any job. And they don't really care they they may not care as an employer. I want them to care. How do you balance that? I really think that this this conversation begins with knowing what you want in the first place. What do you want an employer and even if you are feeling that urgency that you just have to get a job Bob? It's critical that you spend the time to decide. What is it that you actually want to many times? I hear people talk about. Oh well you know I. I have transferable skills I can work for anyone. It's not industry specific. And so why are they hiring me and when I asked him well what do you want to an employer that well any employer is fine as long as an. I'm thinking wait a minute. They haven't done any research they haven't made. They haven't documented any of their desires. How then can can you express your enthusiasm for job that you're implying for if you don't even know what you want? Take that time.
FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Deadly Traps of AdolescenceDay 2 of 10 Guest: Dennis and Barbara Rainey From the series: Peer Pressure Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. It's Tuesday, July 10th, and we thought we'd do something a little different today – we're broadcasting from outdoors here on the Montana prairie. Dennis: It's beautiful out here, isn't it? Bob: It is beautiful. Dennis: Big Sky Country – man, the grass is so green and fresh, wow. Bob: The wind is kind of warm. (rumbling noise) Dennis: What's that? What is that, Bob? Did you hear that? Bob: I do hear that. Dennis: Bob, the ground's shaking. Bob: There's a little bit of a … Dennis: … feel it? Bob: Uh-huh, it's coming. Look over on the – on the horizon! Dennis: Bob, it's a bunch of them. Bob: It's … Both: The herd! Dennis: That was kind of fun – we survived the buffalo stampede here. Bob: I'm not sure we'll survive the teenage stampede. Dennis: Oh, man. Barbara: It lasts a little longer. Dennis: It sure does. Bob: We are talking this week on the broadcast about some of the traps that are laid for teenagers, some of the deadlier traps that are laid for young people as they go through the teenage years, and one of the traps that they face is the trap of the herd, it's the trap of peer pressure, Dennis. Dennis: You know, Jeremiah, chapter 5, verse 26 says, "Among my people are wicked men who lie in wait like men who snare birds and those who set traps to catch men." That's peers – evil peer pressure can snare our children and can ruin their lives. Bob: You know, Barbara, everywhere you look and listen and read and watch, you hear about peer pressure and its influence, and yet it's almost like we've heard so much about it that we've forgotten that it's real, and we're not sure how to define it or what to do with it. From a mom's standpoint, practically, what are the issues around peer pressure that are real issues for our families? Barbara: To me the big issue for peer pressure is for mom and dad to stay involved. You need to know who the kids are that your child is hanging out with, who their friends are, and you need to be watching how those friends of your child are beginning to change, because all of our kids, as they move from elementary school in those early years of when they still like Mom and Dad. But they move into junior high, all of our kids are going to change in some way or another, and we can't assume, as parents, that the kids that our children have been friends with since kindergarten, first grade, second grade, are still going to be the same kind of influence, the same kind of child, in junior high and high school that our child is going to be. We can't assume that they're going to have the same value system, the same convictions, the same beliefs. We've seen it with all of our kids that some of the children that they've grown up with have taken a different fork in the road in junior high and that friendship changes, and if parents assume that those kids are going to just be the same kids, then we get blindsided. Dennis: You know, in that passage I read in Jeremiah, chapter 5, it says "among my people are evil men." The most dangerous form of peer pressure will not come from the non-Christian audience. It will come from the youth group, from children who have been on the right path until they hit 13 or 15 and, all of a sudden, they steer down the wrong path, and they begin to take a group with them. In fact, there is a larger group in most youth groups heading down that path than there is down the path to righteousness and following Jesus Christ and, as parents, Barbara and I have spent a great deal of time being very careful analyzing who are our children hanging out with? What's their spiritual condition? Where are they headed – constantly monitoring who our children's friends are. Bob: The bad kids are kind of obvious, even to our teenagers. It's the good kids who are starting to dabble in some bad things that can be the ones who pull our kids off into the ditch with them. Dennis: Exactly, and it's important for our children to know when it's okay to run with the herd and what kind of herd they can run with and when it's time for them to graze alone. Paul warned in 1 Corinthians, chapter 15, verse 33, he said, "Don't be deceived. Bad company corrupts good morals." All of our children have memorized that verse prior to going into adolescence, because they have to understand that peers are going to influence them, either for good or for evil. Bob: You illustrate this principle in a really powerful way with your sixth grade Sunday school class that you taught for many years. How did you do it? Dennis: Well, I brought a shiny apple into class, and I said that this apple is about to fall under peer pressure, and I let it spend some time with a couple of buddies, and these two buddies were bad apples, and they had bruises on them, and to make sure that the experiment worked, I'd actually bounced them off the floor a couple of times, so these were truly bad apples, okay? And I actually hid the bruises from my sixth grade Sunday school class to make the point of saying you can't always trust what you see is true, and I held up a side that didn't have the bruise, and I said, "These two are really bad apples," and then I slowly turned them around, and the children then could see that they really did have a rotten spot on then, and I said, "We're going to let this good apple spend some time with these two bad buddies, and we're going to see what happens as the good apple falls under the influence of these two bad apples," and we put them in a plastic baggie that sealed and put them in a paper sack and left them in a closet for about six months. Bob: They hibernated, right? Dennis: They did, in fact, over the following months the sixth grade class would be saying, "How are our buddies doing?" I'd say, "Well, I've been checking on them. They're spending time, and you need to know it's not pretty, it really isn't pretty," and then on one of the final class days I would invite one of the sixth graders to come up front, he would reach into the paper sack and pull out this plastic baggie that contained this form of rotten, putrid, apple soup, and there weren't three apples in there. There was nothing distinguishable that you would recognize as an apple and, of course, my point to those children is that Paul's admonition in 1 Corinthians 15:33 – "You are either going to influence people or you are going to be influenced for evil," and if you spend time with the wrong person, you're going to become like those that you make your friendships with. Bob: Barbara, as Dennis was talking about the apples that look good from one side but have some hidden bruises, I was reminded of Eddie Haskell – you remember him on "Leave It To Beaver?" He was the young man who would always come over and say, "Hello, Mrs. Cleaver, how nice you look today." Then when he'd get up to Wally's room, it was always a different story, and he'd start talking slang, and he was rude and disrespectful. Parents have got to be alert to what's going on with these kids. We've got to look all around the apple and see as much as we can, don't we? Barbara: Yeah, because some kids are really smart, and they know how to do that. They know how to look good when they have to look good, but when they're off on their own, they will do what they want to do, and I think there are a couple of things that parents need to be aware of as you evaluate the kids that your child is spending time with, and one of them is sometimes these peers will ridicule what your standards are. They will make fun of them, or they will belittle them, or they will arrogantly tear down what you're trying to do with your child. Dennis: Yeah, and I've got to underscore this one, because I think a parent needs to be very careful of assuming too much about the peers that your children run around with. Don't assume that they stand for the same standards that you represent in your family. In fact, Barbara and I have probably come to the point where we don't assume that about any of the children until we get to know them. After we get to know them, we get to know their families, where they come from, and who they are. At that point, we'll begin to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's almost like any parent of a teenager ought to begin with a basic – this is going to sound horrible, Bob – but a basic mistrust of peers. Why? Because they will arrogantly and flagrantly ridicule the standards and values that you're attempting to teach your child at home – just what Barbara said. They'll do it frontally, they'll do it subtly, they'll come at your child in different ways, tempting him to step to the left or to the right, but most children, even Christian kids, are not going to step in alongside your teenager and say, "You know, it's really wise that your parents grounded you from going out on dates, because of that mistake you made last week." Barbara: That's never happened. Dennis: That has never happened, but we have had great Christian kids – I mean – from great Christian homes come in and say, "Your parents have grounded you from going to youth group? Your parents have grounded you from God? Man, your parents are – I don't know about them, about their values." Now, Bob, these are from kids of great Christian homes. They don't understand what a parent is up to and what a parent is trying to do in providing those boundaries and convictions around that child. Bob: Barbara, they may also encourage our children to do things that Mom and Dad will never find out about, right? Barbara: Yeah, and that's historically true with peers, and that's been going on for centuries, but the classic line that our kids have heard over and over again is – "Your parents will never find out." And our kids have all had friends tell them that over different things. Like, Rebecca came home and was talking about our high school baseball team and their first opening game that she was wanting to go to, and we had looked at her whole week and together we had decided that she didn't need to do that, because we had so many other things going on that week, and she could maybe go to a game the following week. And at school she was telling some of the guys on the team, "Well, I'm not going to go." And they said, "Well, why aren't you going to go?" "Well, my parents and I decided it wouldn't be a good idea," and they said, "Well, they'll never know – just go – nothing's going to hurt, just go to the game anyway, do it anyway." I mean, over and over and over again . Dennis: And when that happens, the caution lights go on between Mom and Dad, and we begin to closely monitor those friendships and, at the same time, begin to guard our children from spending too much time from other teenagers who would encourage our son or daughter to disobey us. Now, think about that. That sounds like a no-brainer, but some parents would watch that happen and would not think that they have the right to step into that child's life to begin to curb the amount of time that teenager spends with that child. Bob: Which is one of the convictions that you talk about in your book. You say that parents have a legitimate right to exercise influence and control even over who your kids are spending time with. Dennis: Yeah, I want to read something from our book right here – "You are the parent. Realize that maintaining control of those who influence your children is within the bounds of your authority as a parent." Did you hear that? It's your responsibility, you're in charge, nobody else, but there's some kind of complex equation that takes place in the chemistry of a teenager and a parent of a teenager, where a parent begins to abdicate their responsibility and, I might add, their authority, and they give it over to the child, and then they wonder years later why the child went off in the wrong direction. Bob: Well, here's what happens Barbara – a teenager comes, and there's some discussion, and finally the teenager says, "Well, don't I have the right to choose who my own friends are going to be? Don't I even have the right to decide who I can hang around with?" And, as a parent, you say no? Barbara: Yeah, and you sound horrible saying no. Dennis: You've got to sound strong saying no. You can't go "No?" Your own voice can't change like a teenager's. You've got to go "That's right." Call their bluff – and inside you may be going, "Oh, I'm not sure about this. I'm going to lose them. They're going to run away. They're going to become a prodigal. They're out of here. They're going to" … Barbara: But the whole goal is shaping, though, their ability to choose friends wisely. It's not so much that you're coming down heavy-handed and going, "No, you have no right to make your own friends, your mom and dad are going to do that for you." That's not the issue. The issue is that you're training them, you're guiding them, you're helping them understand how to choose a good friend and how to be a good friend, and that takes a lot of time. Bob: And the context for that is one of the other convictions you talk about in the book – the relationship that must be in place, because without the relationship, if you start saying, "No, you can't choose your own friends," they check out from you, and they'll just sneak around and do it whether you like it or not. Dennis: Yeah, that's right. The quality of the relationship that you have with your child will be a determining factor of how significant peer pressure is on your child's life. Did you hear that? It doesn't mean you'll prevent it. I'm just saying if you've got a quality relationship, if your heart is connected to your child, you're going to know what's going on. Your child will know that you know what's going on. You'll be in it together. There may be times when they slip away, and they've done something, but you can go get that child through that relationship. If that relationship is not in place, you don't have any ability to go get that child and pull them away from peer pressure. What your ability – to preach? Even with those relationships in place they don't want to hear those sermons. But you know what? With the relationship in place, it makes the possibility of them hearing that sermon a reality. Bob: You know, as we talk about peer pressure, we talk about it almost exclusively in its negative sense – those folks who yank our kids in the wrong direction – one of the great things that you all talk about is the power of positive peer pressure. This is where parents can really turn peer pressure and make it their ally instead of their enemy. Barbara: Yeah, and I think a lot of parents aren't aware that that's a possibility, because what happens is when they're not involved, then the kids are going to gravitate toward negative peer pressure, and that's just going to be the human nature of the situation. They're just going to go that way. But if you're involved, and you're teaching your child how to develop good friendships, how to be a good friend, and then you steer him or her toward kids that you know are going to be good kids, kids that are going to be a good influence, and you sort of help cultivate that relationship, make time for it, and have those kids over to your house and help develop that and teach your child how to keep that going, then you can use that for good in your child's life. So it doesn't have to be negative. It can be positive if parents are proactive about it. Dennis: When Ashley was 13 or 14, she came home from school one day, and she described what she was feeling like as a young person. She said, "Mom, Dad, it's as though I'm standing on a wall, and my friends are all at the base of the wall, and they picked up stones to throw at me to try to knock me off the wall." Bob: Wow. Dennis: And I think what you need to do with your teenager is to help them find some friends to get up on the wall with her or with him, and it's interesting – our oldest three went through junior high and high school alone. They were terribly alone on that wall … Barbara: But they did have each other, and I do think that made a difference, because even though they were alone without peer relationships from other kids, they were pretty much in school together, and they knew that they had somebody else that was there with them. Bob: They also had Mom and Dad cheering them on in the background saying, "Way to go." Barbara: Right, exactly. Bob: So that when they took courageous stands, at least home was a place they could come to where they knew they were going to get some positive reinforcement. Barbara: Right, right. Dennis: Exactly, and when Ashley told that story of how she felt, we just cheered her – I mean – "Way to go, Ashley. Don't let them knock you off. Stand strong." One of our other teenagers has told us repeatedly, "You know, I just feel like such a failure as a teenager." And when it comes to peers, and being a teenager, our teens make a lot of dumb choices, you know, they choose some wrong things, and it's easy, as a parent, to constantly be on them for the mistakes they're making and not appropriately be for them and the right choices they're making and cheering them on to the objective. Bob: Barbara, one of the very practical things that you've done with your children to help prepare them for maybe standing alone, is the "decide in advance" game. Tell me how that's played. Barbara: Well, it can be used in lots of different situations, but for peer pressure, for instance, it would be a situation where – I've done this with all of our kids as they have exited sixth grade and entered into junior high, and I've said to all of them, "Now, you know, as you go through these next couple of years, some of the kids that you've been friends with since second grade and third grade are going to begin to change, and they will choose some wrong paths; some things that our family doesn't stand for, and I want you to be watching for that so that when it happens you'll be not caught off guard by it, and you'll see it coming, and you won't get sucked into making those wrong choices, too." So it's the idea of thinking through some situations in advance and helping them know that there are going to be some problems ahead, and what are you going to do about it when it happens? And taking it a step further, it could be what are you going to do if you're over at a friend's house, and they put a movie in that you don't think we would approve of. How are you going to handle that? Or what if you're at the mall, and you see some kids that are thinking about shoplifting? You can tell just by the way they're talking and what they're doing that they're thinking about that. How are you going to handle that? What are you going to do? There are just multiple things like that that kids are going to face in greater numbers in junior high and high school than they ever faced before, and helping them decide in advance what they're going to do about it is a great step in preparing them to handle it right. Dennis: It really is, and it comes from Daniel, chapter 1, where it talks about how Daniel made up his mind in advance not to defile himself by eating the king's food. In other words, he walked into the banquet having already decided what he was going to do in advance of the choice, and I think, personally, this whole idea of parents having their own convictions and then implanting those convictions in their children, helping that child decide what he or she will do before they face the situation, I believe, Bob, is one of the absolute keys in helping our children survive adolescence. Bob: Well, and that's why you and Barbara have invested as much time as you did in this book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," because you want parents to think through these issues – and I appreciate the fact that what you really want parents to do is develop their own convictions. In some cases, it's clear what the biblical mandate is on some of these issues, but in other cases, we have to decide what do we think is the wise way to approach this? And what kind of standards are we going to have for our family? A husband and wife need to come to an agreement on those issues and be ready proactively to address them as their children begin the journey through adolescence. We've got copies of the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent" in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and I know many of our listeners already have a copy. If you have children who are in the late elementary years, that's the perfect time for you to get a copy of this book and start reading through it. You could read through a different chapter each week on a date night together and begin, as a husband and wife, to interact over these issues and say, "What are our standards? What are our convictions?" Again, the book is called "Parenting Today's Adolescent." You can request a copy from us here at FamilyLife Today by go online at FamilyLife.com, click the red "Go" button that you see in the middle of the screen, and that will take you right to an area of the website where there is more information about this book, and you can order it online, if you'd like. Again, the website is FamilyLife.com. Click the red button that says "Go," and that will take you to the area of the site where you can get more information about the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent." You can also call 1-800-FLTODAY to request a copy of this book or to ask any questions you have – 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and we've got folks who are available to try and help you with any questions you face or to get a copy of the book sent out to you. You know, there's an additional resource we'd like to send to you this month. It's a book that Dennis has just written called "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date" – a great book for dads or for a single-parent mom as well to talk about how you can protect your daughter as she begins to be pursued by young men, and how you can engage those young men in a meaningful, helpful conversation that will have an impact on their lives as well. We are sending out this book this month as a thank you gift to those of you who are able to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount. Because we are listener-supported, those donations are critical for the ongoing ministry of FamilyLife Today and in the summer months, particularly, we need to hear from our listeners. Oftentimes, support drops off in the summer, and that's the case this year as well. If you can help with a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today, you can request a copy of the book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date." You can donate online at FamilyLife.com, and if you do that, when year-old come to the key code box on the donation form, type the word "date" in there, and we'll know to send you a copy of that book. Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, make your donation over the phone and mention that you'd like a copy of Dennis's new book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date." Again, we're happy to send it out to you as our way of saying thanks for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today. You know, Dennis, as we talked today about peer pressure, you used the illustration of the rotten apple in the bag, and I remember you telling me that years after your sixth grade Sunday school class, one of those students who had been in the class returned and told you about the power that that particular illustration had had in her life. Dennis: Yeah, Sarah was 16 or 17 and evidently was facing some pretty challenging days of peer pressure, and one afternoon when the power was out because of a thunderstorm that had rolled through, this young teenage girl and her mom were lying on the bed just talking to each other. The mom relayed this story to me later that Sarah turned to her and said, "You know, Mom, there's all kinds of pressure on me right now by peers, but all I can think about are apples – Mr. Rainey's apples – and what happened to those apples when they gave in to the bad buddies." That little object lesson was used by the spirit of God in that girl's mind to remind her to do what was right and to talk to her mom about that during a crucial period where she was having to decide either to do what's right or to move in the direction of peer pressure. It helped her do what was right and, Bob, I think that's our role as parents. We need to step in there and illustrate these principles, call our children to the right choices, and then keep calling them back to those choices. It's not a one-time lesson where you teach it once, and then you back off. It's over and over and over again. The repetitive side of parenting is the exhaustive side of parenting, but it's where the real gains are made, and I just want to come alongside that mom and dad right now, single parent, maybe even a grandparent who is helping to raise a child and just say to you – hang in there. Don't give in to your child's peer pressure yourself. You've got to stand strong so you can help your child through some dangerous territory that has traps that will seek to ensnare your child and take them toward destruction. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a listener-supported production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. __________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com
What is the American Bar Association (ABA) doing to ensure there is a national voice for, not just the legal profession, but for vulnerable people and communities that we serve, to make sure that the Constitution is protected? As his term comes to an end, current ABA President Bob Carlson sits down with ALPS Executive Vice President Chris Newbold to discuss the ABA's work to move the needle on tough topics like lawyer wellbeing, natural disaster relief, immigration, diversity and inclusion, and the vision of global stewardship. Transcript: CHRIS NEWBOLD: Good afternoon. This is Chris Newbold, executive vice president of ALPS. Welcome to ALPS in Brief podcast. I'm actually here today in Missoula, Montana. It's July 19, 2019, and I have a very special guest here in our offices. Current ABA president in America, attorney Bob Carlson. Bob Carlson is a former past president of the state bar of Montana and is the second Montanan to ever hold the post of ABA President. Bob, thank you for joining us today. BOB CARLSON: Well Chris, thanks for having me. And just to tell your viewers, we just completed another successful ALPS leadership retreat here in Missoula, and had bar leaders and executive directors from around the country. It was inspirational as always, so thank you. CHRIS: Yeah, obviously ALPS, in our malpractice insurance, one of the strong partnerships that we enjoy is our relationship with state bars and, and Bob was actually, back in his state bar is, was a major force in the creation of ALPS. And so we obviously appreciate his longtime support of ALPS. Bob, let's talk, I want to talk a little bit about ... Let's talk one year ago today, right? So you were on the cusp of going into the annual meeting in which you were going to be sworn in as president of the ABA, right? Talk to our listeners about just kind of what you were thinking about before you went into the post. Obviously, you went through a pretty long cycle of leadership positions in the ABA, but there's, there's probably nothing like kind of getting ready for the actual year itself. And so talk to us about your mindset, about what you were thinking about going into the year as ABA president. BOB: Well, a few things. First of all, my predecessor, Hilarie Bass had started some programs that we wanted the association to continue. Going back a couple of years before that with Linda Klein and Paula Brown, they had started some programs that as an association, we wanted to continue. What we didn't want to do is just start something new, start a fresh initiative that was Bob Carlson's initiative. And I think that Hilarie had a similar mindset and we had worked well together and an issue that was very, very important to both of us was attorney wellness and wellbeing. We were bound and determined to continue to spread the message about the work that the association and state local bars were doing in that area. The second thing was to try to continue to spread the message about what the ABA and its young lawyers division does in the area of disaster relief and disaster resiliency. In the last two years, we've had disasters, significant devastating disasters, whether it's hurricanes or tornadoes or wildfires or earthquakes from the US Virgin Islands to American Samoa. So literally one end of this country to the other, and we wanted to continue to focus on that. Immigration was a critical issue. The ABA has significant policy in this area to try to assist in making sure that, number one, the children that were removed from their families were reunited. We're still working on that. Number two, that unaccompanied minors got a fair hearing and got as much representation, whether direct representation or pro bono representation, that we could provide or at a minimum that they had been provided with some information about what their rights were and also to assist people seeking asylum. We continue to work on that even though the landscape seems to change on a regular basis. And finally we were rolling out a new website and a new membership model. I come from a very small firm in a rural state and I wanted to make sure that we had Hilarie and Judy and some other, Judy Perry Martinez, my successor, and others speaking for the larger firms. Hillary's firm was 2000 lawyers. At the start of my year, we had five or six. We're now three due to a couple of moves out of state of a couple of associates. But wanted to really show to lawyers in small firms around the country that the ABA was relevant to them. And that was a great value in terms of making them a better practitioner, providing them the right tools they needed to assist their clients, and to make it more affordable and accessible. On the eve last, almost what is a 49 weeks ago today? That was the thought. Had a lot of momentum going into the year from things that my predecessors had done, and I think we've kept the momentum up and, and moved the ball forward on a lot of areas. CHRIS: That's a really interesting thing to kind of note because I think in the governance model of the ABA, there has been a little bit, what's the president's initiative? Best practices in nonprofit governance would tell you that, you know, there's a strategic plan, right? And there's a vision of a board and the president is just the steward of the vision, right? As opposed to, and it seems like there's been a lot of progress with the last couple of leaders of the ABA in terms of executing a coherent, sustainable vision for the organization. BOB: And that's been the goal. I grew up in the bar world in the state bar, Montana. When I first became a member of the board, we were just starting, this was back in the 80s, we were just starting our strategic planning process and when I became president we were five, six years into that process and the presidents were moving things forward. A strategic plan keeps getting evolved every year. You look at it every year. You've done retreats, the [inaudible 00:06:43] retreats for the state bar and others, that you know, what have you accomplished but needs more work? What new issues have arisen on the landscape? The legal profession is constantly evolving. Issues constantly evolve, so you have to figure out a way to meet that. Most of the state bars though don't have the turnover, complete turnover in leadership that the ABA does. So you have a board at the ABA that rolls over completely, is a new board every three years We have a strategic plan now for the board that Hilarie pushed through. We have done some reorganization internally, but the mindset has to be at the top. The leaders at the top have to say, listen, we support the association moving forward. This is not about the individuals that are the presidents. This is about the association. This is about the profession. This is about the independence of the judiciary, and diversity and inclusion. What are we going to do to move those things forward? And the way you do it is you sort of have a relay. It's not a sprint. It's not, I'm going to do as much as I can in one year. It is confident in the knowledge that you keep moving the baton forward. That I took it from Hilarie and I'm giving it to Judy and she's giving it to Patricia Refo from Arizona, and we're going to continue to move the association forward in a strategic way, and in an organized way. This gives you the flex. This allows you to meet the ongoing programs, to continue to expand and work on programs, but also meet the new things that happen in every presidency. Whether you're a state bar president or the president of the largest voluntary legal association in the world, every year there's going to be something that happens that you're going to have to react to on behalf of your members and on behalf of the profession. CHRIS: So you have those expectations, right? There's continuity in the goals one year later. How do feel like things at one? BOB: I actually feel really good. We have moved. We have made progress in a number of areas, and I think the association as a whole has strengthened. We did a lot of things last year to strengthen and we did a number of more to strengthen it, and we are positioned to really have a very strong national association for the future. I think for the listener that's critically important to the independence of the judiciary. It's critically important to due process and the rule of law that you have a national voice for, it's not just for the legal profession, it's for vulnerable people and communities that we serve to make sure that the message gets delivered, to make sure that the Constitution is protected. I feel like we really as an association have made a lot of progress, and one area that we've made significant progress in is the area of lawyer wellness and wellbeing. Thanks a lot in no small part to your work and assistance as the co-chair of the ABA working group on lawyer wellbeing in the profession. I'm sure I've totally messed up the title but we have really created a movement. Primarily my job is taking in as many groups as possible about the issues concerning lawyer wellbeing and lawyer wellness, whether it's a state bar, or a local bar, or law schools, or meetings of managing partners, or to regional bar associations. Not only what the ABA is doing, but how we can partner with all the other stakeholders, including companies like ALPS, who write legal malpractice insurance and have been big supporters of the organized bar since ALPS inception. So I feel really good. We created a pledge we have for legal employers to talk about and think about lawyer wellness and wellbeing for their employees. We've got 120 legal employers that have signed up both law schools, in-house counsel, some of the largest law firms in the country, and then a small firm like myself. So it's not just for big firms, and it's not a one size fits all. It's what can you do to make sure that the consciousness of the law firms and the employers are raised so that they are more aware of the issues that their employees are going through. So if somebody needs help, they know the resources they can get to, the toolkit on lawyer wellbeing with the 80 tips, a [inaudible 00:11:53] that you can download on your phone. I mean that's tremendous progress in an area where we needed something to say, listen, this is okay to talk about. It is okay to get help. It is imperative that you get help. And we're trying to make sure that publicly, every day, everywhere I've gone this year to every audience, those words come out of my mouth. If you need help, we have the resources to get you help. Because to be a good lawyer, you need to be a healthy lawyer. CHRIS: Yeah. And how would you characterize the state of attorney wellbeing right now if you had to kind of step back and reflect a little bit? Because obviously, we have a long way to go. The numbers are not favorable, right? But education and discussion and as you say, the creation of a movement dedicated to the betterment of the profession is a noble direction for us to take. BOB: It is, and we've made progress. I do think we've made progress. The conversations over the past year, I sort of lost track of the count, but I think I spoke in 17, 18, 19 law schools primarily on the topic of lawyer and law student wellbeing, urging law schools to think about it. And there's a number of law schools that are doing great things. There's number of law schools that within an hour after leaving the lunch with the students, they created a working group to discuss how they could do things in their law school, which included faculty, interested faculty members and deans. So I think we've kept this as sort of a fear thing for so long. People were afraid that if they identified as having a problem, whether it's a mental disease problem, anxiety, depression, bipolar, whatever, or if it's a substance issue, they felt that if they sought help that they'd have to report themselves and that they would be stigmatized, and they would be penalized for that either in their admission to the law school or their admission to the bar. So we increased the bandwidth of the stakeholders where we have regular discussions with the conference of chief justices. So the 50 chief justices from every state who can basically oversee the practice of law and the admission to law and to practice in their states. We've had discussions in law schools. We've had discussions with managing partners of big firms, medium firms, and small firms. There was a national summit where educators, lawyers, legal malpractice insurance companies got together to talk about how to move this message forward. I'd say the most important thing we've done is we talked about it every day, and I think that's made a big difference. There's a lot of things, there's a lot of positive things that the legal profession is doing today. A lot of, whether it's volunteering a for pro-Bono in disaster relief areas, whether it's volunteering to assist people seeking asylum at the border or in their communities, whether it's volunteering to help people with their veterans benefits, or the elderly. Whether it's lobbying for legal services, adequate funding and the Legal Services Corporation or the public service loan forgiveness program. All things that the profession is doing, the great things. Those things provide you satisfaction as lawyers. Helping somebody pro bono, for free, provides satisfaction. So we're trying to provide as many opportunities to younger lawyers to do that, as well as more seasoned lawyers like myself. At the same time, it's sort of an individual decision about how you want your life as a legal practitioner to unfold. Do you want to be a professor? Do you want to work in government? Do you want to be in a big firm or small firm? When I taught in law school, since I come from a small firm, and Hilarie comes from a very large firm before me, and Judy comes from a medium-sized firm, I make that analysis. Here's the world's largest legal association. Here's three totally separate, 2000 lawyer firm from Miami, three to five lawyer firm at the time I started from Butte Montana, a few hundred lawyers from New Orleans, Louisiana. That's pretty diverse in terms of practice areas, in terms of scope. You lay that out to people saying these are things that you can do. You can choose to practice where you want, and you need to make part of that decision to make yourself feel like you're giving back. CHRIS: In many respects, you know, the attorney wellbeing is a one attorney at a time progression. Right? And the more that we're raising the visibility of the issue, willing to have meaningful conversations, be vulnerable at times. Right? And be able to look out for one another. It's amazing how much impact you can have, one lawyer can have, on the people around them. BOB: Yeah. And I think for a long time, people were either embarrassed or didn't want to interfere. But if you look at it in terms of if you saw somebody that was stepping out in front of a bus, you know, you'd reach out and grab the person. And people that are suffering from either addiction or anxiety, depression, other mental diseases, that's that equipment. And do you have to at least say something, be willing to raise the issue, not to embarrass them, not to demean them, to treat it as a part of society. These things are in society. Unfortunately, the legal profession has way higher averages of people suffering from these issues than the average population and way more than the other professions. And so we need to be able to speak up. And I think part of it historically was, oh, that was a sign of honor to, I could party hard and then still get up and go to work and be a great a lawyer or I, you know, I feel bad so I'm not going to go help because that would make me seem weak. So I'm going to, you know, ignore it for self-medicate, which compounds the problem. And the more you can normalize this, or de-stigmatize it, the more you can say, this is part of life. We're here to help you. You need to get help and we are not going to judge you when you do it. CHRIS: Yeah. And one of the things that also I think is interesting is that you know, there seems to be more willingness as a society for us to talk about these issues, right? I mean, you, you hear top 40 songs talking about suicide hotlineS, and you see a lot more stars coming out and being more vulnerable about things that are affecting them. And then you have generational change. Right? And so talk about what you see in terms of just, you know, you spent a lot of time in law schools. I mean, I think the generational shift in terms of the millennials are soon going to be, you know, the majority of lawyers out there. Right? And what that means in terms of the awareness of worK-life balance, professional satisfaction and willingness to talk about these issues more openly and honestly. BOB: Yeah, I think the trend is, I think we're seeing some positive results in the more experienced, the baby boomer generation, getting help and being willing to talk about it. But I really do see a great hope for the profession with our younger lawyers and with the law students coming out because they are more willing to seek help. They're more willing to seek fulfillment in both their day jobs, whatever they are, but also volunteering on issues of importance to them. And as an association, we're trying to provide as many opportunities for them as possible so they can volunteer their time and talents to the communities where they live. And I think that is going to pay dividends in terms of their self-fulfillment, their enjoyment of their job. I've practiced law now for, I graduated 40 years ago, and there's been some tough times. The practice of law is difficult, but I've always enjoyed doing this. I've always enjoyed being a lawyer, helping clients. But I think part of what's given me the fulfillment in this is this. I mean I've been active in the state and national bar, you know, since the early eighties, so not too long after I got a law school. And that sense of giving back to the profession, that sense of being around talented lawyers from all over the country, and having that experience has really been fulfilling in not only my life but my family's life. My wife and I have great friends all over the country, that but for doing this volunteer work, we would've never met these people. And I think that part of the thing is to, and I come from a small firm, we've always been a small firm and we've always been committed to giving back to both the bar and the community. But that sense of fulfillment is something that if we can convince more lawyers starting in law school and more young lawyers to participate in that, to take that time and provide more opportunities. You don't have to do this. I mean being the president of this association has been great, but you know, not everybody's going to do this. I do know that in every classroom, every group of young lawyers that I talk to, I say the same thing. There is somebody in this room that in the next 20 years is going to be standing up giving this set of remarks to the next generation of lawyers. Because I do believe that. I believe that you have to be open to the possibilities that one thing you do, one day, one volunteer effort somewhere, you have to be open to the possibility that that is not only going to change the person's life that you're helping, that it's going to change your life. And I think our generation has done a pretty good job. But this next generation I think is ready, willing and able to step up to the plate. And I have great confidence. Is it perfect yet? No, but are we making progress? Did we move the needle this year in a number of areas as an association of profession? Absolutely yes. CHRIS: That's great. That's great. Tell me how has your small firm perspective been important in your leadership perspective? Not that it's unusual that a small firm lawyer becomes president of the ABA. But when you look at the numbers, right? 49% of, you know, the ABA statistics, 49% of lawyers in private practice are solo practitioners. Right? And then the next, you know, 24, 26% are in firms of two to five. Right? So it's fairly unusual to find somebody who has the capacity, the commitment to step forward and bring that perspective from a leadership perspective. And so I'm wondering how you reflect now about how that perspective has been part of your leadership journey. BOB: Well, I certainly think it's helped. It's helped keep me grounded. I've never taken myself too seriously, although I tried to learn something every day and lay awake at night thinking could I have done this better or differently. But I think that being from a smaller firm, when you're out talking to groups of lawyers, most of them are going to be in that category. And I know what they're going through. I mean, I know the day to day ups and downs, and joys and sort of a downside of being in a small firm and being part of the fabric of a community. And being from a rural state, that sort of amplifies that. Because lawyers volunteer everywhere, but if you're in a big city that shouldn't, but it sort of gets lost in the whole, there's a lot of people doing a lot of things. If you're in a small town or from a rural state, you see lawyers on every board. You see lawyers coaching soccer and baseball and refereeing and they're part of the fabric, the literal fabrics of their communities. And to be from that background, I think gives you a better voice when you're talking to those folks. I think the association as a whole and the leaders have always done a great job trying to assist solo and small firm lawyers be better lawyers. We've got great tools for that. We've worked hard over the last several years to expand that. And maybe it was in part because of comments or suggestions that I brought to the table being from that perspective. And so I think that it allows you to walk up and say, listen, I get it. Now the larger firm lawyers who have been president, they're empathetic. They do get it. They want to help everybody there. Their job, you're leading this association, you want to help all the members and you want to increase membership. You want to gain more people so you can help more people help more clients. And so they get it. But it's like when I walk into the room with 50 managing partners of these major law firms, I get it because I've been in those discussions, some of them I've known for a long time, but I don't know what it is they're going through managing 59 offices in 30 countries or whatever it is. I mean I empathize but they're like looking at me like what do you know? And I think that now there's a face because there's been this misperception that the ABA is only for big law firms and coastal law firms. And that's just not true. A vast number of our members are from solo and small firms and, but now they know that you can lead this. Now they know that number one, leadership is for everybody. It's very diverse across all categories. And they know that there's somebody here that they could pick up the phone and say, I'm having this issue, what programs are the ABA running or do you have to help me? And they know that I know what I'm talking about when I'm talking to them. It's just a matter of expanding the bandwidth and pushing the envelope that we have all sorts of people who've risen to the top and leadership of this association. This association is a big tent and it is for everybody, no matter where you come from, no matter what your practice, no matter what your firm size, no matter what your gender, race, social or sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, whatever. This association is for them. We have done I think a better job over the last several years of moving that message, in part because of who we've selected to be the president of this association. CHRIS: Well, you sit now in the home stretch of your tenure as president, just a few short weeks you'll be handing off the baton. Have you had any time to reflect on the year? You've, you've been go, go, go, go, go. I'm just curious about the personal side of this type of service, commitment to the profession. I'm sure you'll have a decompression time at some point here in the near future. But you've been in enough airplanes where you probably get some time to think as well. BOB: Yeah. I've been trying to take it one hour at a time, literally. Get to the next commitment, be in the moment for the people that I'm speaking to or having conversations with at the time, and then keep moving. I've done some reflection on the plains, but a lot of it is how can I do a better job and the time that's remaining in this term to deliver the message better. Trying to learn from every set of remarks, how could I make more of an impact on the audience? How can I make this work? How can we make a broader impact on other issues facing the profession and the judiciary in the United States and frankly the world? So what can you do to move that forward? And I've been very fortunate. My very small law firm has supported me. I have still practiced law this year, not as much as maybe I would have liked to help my partner out and help the law firm out in our clients, but I've done some, which is a little unusual for an ABA president. And I think I've had great support from my wife Cindy. Because we have two dogs who miss us and we miss them. We haven't traveled a lot together and plus this job is sort of like being on a rock band tour without the band. You're sometimes in multiple cities in a handful of days and she prefers to go to a location to sort of be there for a few days, three or four days at a time. And there's times when you're in a city for two hours. So it's been a little difficult at times. But she's been great. But we've been in this for the whole run. We're going to be 34 years of marriage, but we dated before that. So she's my entire career or bar service, my entire career at my law firm, which I started in 1981, she's been in the picture. And she's got a lot of friends in the state bars, and in the national bar, and people that she's met around the world. This has been a fabulous experience. I'll sit back and reflect later, but we still have three weeks give or take to go and there's still more stuff to do. We're still trying to every day look at things and say, how can we do good today and continue to move the association forward? CHRIS: Well thank you Bob, obviously for your service. I think anybody who ultimately serves in a service capacity, in a leadership role, I think our ultimate goals that leave the organization better than we found it. Right? And I think that if that's the benchmark versus success, I think you should certainly be proud of what you've been able to achieve in your year as ABA President. And again, there's a lot of people around you. There's an incredible ABA staff, right? This is an organization that's committed to betterment. And you know, while you're the steward of the vision at this point, I know it's got to be fulfilling for you to begin to think about the fact that you've ideally move the needle forward and you're going to leave at a stronger organization than you found it. BOB: Yeah, you sort of stole my last set of comments. But yeah, we do have a great, not only a great staff, they're tremendous and they provide a great deal of support. But we have a tremendous number of volunteer members, volunteer lawyer leaders around the country that participate like yourself, on working groups, committees, task force commissions, the sections that provide the substantive practice. We have such a great wealth of talent in this association. We are definitely moving the needle in a number of areas. Do we have more work to do? Yes, but we will continue to do that. We'll continue to speak out where it's necessary in defense of, not only the profession, not only the judiciary, but in defense of due process and rule of law, both in this country and around the world. That's what the association has been doing. I am fortunate enough to be the 142nd president. We've been doing this for 142 years, three years, and we're going to keep doing it. So thanks for your time. I appreciate all that you've done and all that ALPS has done as a company to support the organized bar. CHRIS: Bob, it's been fun. I appreciate you taking a couple of minutes on a late Friday afternoon at the conclusion of our ALPS bar leaders retreat. Again, Bob's been a great friend of mine and our organization. We thank him for his service and leadership of this great profession. So thank you Bob. BOB: Thank you. Appreciate it. CHRIS: That will conclude our ALPS in Brief a podcast. If you have any thoughts or suggestions, please let us know for future topics, and that's it. Have a great weekend. Thanks.
To find out more about the Wisconsin Great River Road please check out the website www.WiGRR.com to find out about Wyalusing State Park find them at https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/parks/name/wyalusing/Bob: Chad Breuer is the Property Supervisor of Wyalusing State Park. Wyalusing is kind of a different name. Where does the name come from, Chad?Chad Breuer: It comes from the Native American word meaning ‘Where the old, or the Holy Man, dwells.’ I think what sets us apart is just where we’re located. We have the river, the confluence, the bluffs. And that’s why the park was formed back in 1917.Bob: [It’s] over 100 years old. What kind of changes have been made in those 100 years, Chad?Chad: Well, we’ve added camping. We’ve added more electrical sites. One hundred years ago, people were relying on rustic tent camping. Now, people like to still camp and get out, but [they also want] some of those luxuries of having, in case rain comes in, that camper, the grill or the oven, and the refrigerator to keep food cold. To be honest, my wife likes to sleep in a bed at night, so it’s those little things that a camper has that a tent doesn’t. We have sites for campers and a site for tent camping. A lot of people still tent camp. It’s very popular yet year-round; we even have people come in the winter and tent camp, so that’s pretty neat to get out and talk to those folks.Bob: Do you have showers?Chad: Yes, absolutely. We have two campgrounds. One [is] on the Wisconsin Ridge; that’s the older campground. It overlooks the bluff, and at night you can see the lights of Prairie du Chien. Then we have another campground – Homestead campground – that’s located a little more interior of the park. [It’s] a little more secluded, [and they’re] beautiful sites. [There is] a brand-new shower building, [and it’s] a beautiful shower building. We have about 109 campsites between the two campgrounds.Bob: I’m assuming since you’re on the backwaters that kayaking is probably a pretty big thing to do there as well.Chad: Absolutely. We have a canoe trail. We have a canoe trail that kind of heads south from the park, and you can head north out of the park. Our friends group, the Friends of Wyalusing, is a nonprofit group that works just to support the park. They support programs in the park, especially like our naturalist positions. They have canoes they rent every day. You can come up to our concession stand and rent the canoes from the Friends [of Wyalusing]. And that money stays right back here with the park by supporting our naturalist program by giving us the opportunity to hire someone to put on programs throughout the summer.Bob: You mentioned a canoe trail. What is a canoe trail?Chad: We’ve got signs up so people don’t … You get in the backwaters in the refuge there, and people could get lost. This way, we have signs up just marking a path, a route, for people to canoe so they don’t get lost if they’re not from the area.Bob: If somebody hasn’t been to Wyalusing before, what would be the definite ‘you’ve got to see this’ moment there?Chad: The big thing you have to see is Point Lookout. That’s why the park was identified; it’s where the confluence [of] where the Wisconsin [River] flows into the Mississippi [River]. We’ve got some great lookouts all along the park in the bluffs. If you want to come down and you want to spend some time, go to these lookouts and walk some of the trails and see the bluffs. If you’ve never seen it, it’s just spectacular. We’re 800 feet above the river, so it’s just spectacular views from up on the points.Bob: Being on the Wisconsin Great River Road has a lot of perks. What are some of the perks that you find for Wyalusing being on the Great River Road?Chad: I think anybody who’s traveling, this is definitely a destination stop. People are going to travel the Great River Road, and this is just a destination stop for people. They might not camp, but they’re going to come spend a few hours here seeing the park [and] going to the lookouts. They can look over the bluffs into Prairie du Chien, into Iowa and Marquette, [and] Pikes Peak State Park. If you’re traveling the Great River Road, this is a destination stop.Bob: Where can people go, Chad, to find out more information about the park?Chad: Definitely go online to the Wisconsin DNR [website] and type in ‘Wyalusing State Park.’ That’s a great way to start. It’s going to talk about the park and what we have to offer.Bob: The big question is, you said type in ‘Wyalusing.’ How do you spell Wyalusing?Chad: [It’s spelled] W-Y-A-L-U-S-I-N-G.Bob: Is there anything I’m missing, Chad, that I should be asking you about?Chad: On the Great River Road – correct me if I’m wrong – we’re talking about Highway 35?Bob: Yup.Chad: Then there’s a smaller property just south of Wyalusing, [and that’s] Nelson Dewey State Park. That is adjacent to historic Stonefield Village. When you do travel the Great River Road, make some time to stop at Nelson Dewey also. We have hiking trails, [but] not as many. We don’t have the boat landing, but you still have really neat lookouts down there. A lot of people go down there and they hit the lookouts, then they can go across the road and they’re at historic Stonefield Village.
FUll Transcript Below Show Summary: Serina Gilbert is always coming across great stories and this one from Erin and Bob at White Cane Coffee is as good as it gets. Taking a Bad Day and transferring that into the launching of a new company, Erin and Bob, a daughter and son team, tell us why they wanted to start White Cane Coffee and how they want to impact others with the opportunity through the affiliate program coming soon. You can check out the line of White Cane Coffee on the web at www.WhiteCaneCoffee.comand find the coffee that best suits you. Here is an overview of White Cane Coffee taken from the web: Hi, I’m Erin from White Cane Coffee. I, with the help of my parents, started this company to provide great coffee to our customers and provide self sustaining jobs for people with disabilities. We have a variety of coffee roasts for your enjoyment. Colombian Supremo is sweet, smooth and bold. We also have a Colombian Supremo Decaf which gives you all the same great flavor without all the caffeine. But, if you want that caffeine boost, try our High Octane. Our Donut Shop blend gives you that fruity, clean taste you expect to find in your neighborhood pastry shop. If you like a bold, earthy cup of joe, try our Dark Roast, it is roasted from 100% Indonesian Sumatra beans. French Roast gives you that rich, robust flavor you may crave. Or if you prefer a Breakfast Blend, ours will give you that tangy, fruity flavor you will love. All of our beans are organic and micro-roasted, using hot air to give you the very best quality and flavor. There is nothing worse than waking up in the morning and discovering you are out of coffee. (I shudder at the mere thought of it). So, that is why we offer a subscription service so you can receive your favorite White Cane Coffee right on your door step every month. If you make your subscription for a full year, we will cover your shipping. You will also notice that, other than our sample box, (which I highly recommend so you find the right blend for you), our coffee arrives in 1 pound and 2 pound packages. You will actually get what you expect you are paying for. Now a bit about White Cane Coffee, and why we standout. The reason I wanted to start White Cane Coffee is because, number one, “Who doesn’t love coffee.”. But most importantly, my brothers and I are all on the Autism Spectrum and I am also blind. We have found that finding jobs extremely difficult. In our experience, employers didn’t want to provide full time or a living wages to handicapped individuals. Or because of bullying on the job site staying at some jobs unbearable. So, at 22, I started to ask, “When you have the right people around you, the question stops being, What can I do? but What’s stopping me”. So here we are. Our goal is to provide a welcoming environment to all people and provide jobs to the handicapped community at a living wage. Most of all, we want to provide you with a Great cup of coffee! Check out this episode of Job Insights and send us your feedback and topic suggestions by email. Follow the Job Insights team on twitter @JobInsightsVIP Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities network. Contact: Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store. Full Transcript Jeff Thompson: I saw one on there that was called the high octane. Bob: Yeah, that one's double the caffeine, double have fun. Serena Gilbert: Do not ship that one to Jeff. Jeff Thompson: Job Insights, a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment. Serena Gilbert: I saw a post from White Cane Coffee, and I was intrigued because the name, I think it's like a super awesome name for a company. Jeff Thompson: Learn about resources for training, education and employment opportunities. Erin: I swear, the excitement for me is just constant, because again, I'm just branching out on new things, I'm meeting with people in the community, I'm on podcast now. There's always new things that we're doing, so one part of it may not be as flashy or exciting as it was, but there's a new part that's brand sparkling new and just like, yeah. Jeff Thompson: You will hear from people seeking careers, employment from professionals in the educational field, teachers, and innovators in this ever changing world of technology. Speaker 5: That's an easy one to remember, because everyone knows the white game, everyone loves coffee and.com there you go. Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter @BlindAbilities and download our free Blind Abilities App from the APP store, that's two words, blind abilities. Now please welcome Serena Gilbert and Jeff Thompson with Job Insights. Erin: If they do find work, it's for absolutely a pittance amount of money, so we're just like, let's employ them and pay them fairly. Jeff Thompson: Welcome to the Job Insights. I'm Jeff Thompson and with me is Serena Gilbert. How are you doing Serena? Serena Gilbert: I am doing absolutely fantastic, Jeff, how are you? Jeff Thompson: I'm doing good. You came across a great company on Facebook and invited them on. Tell us a little bit about it. Serena Gilbert: I was scrolling through Facebook like I do for, I don't even know how many hours a day at this point, and I saw a post from White Cane Coffee and I was intrigued because, well of course, first the name, I think it's like a super awesome name for a company, and secondly, what their mission was and how they started a company to be able to have nice jobs for individuals with disabilities to be able to be a little bit more self-sustaining. I really, really liked that idea. Jeff Thompson: Entrepreneurship right there. I like it. Serena Gilbert: Of course. Jeff Thompson: Well we got them here in the studio. Let's welcome. Erin and Bob from White Cane Coffee. How are you guys doing? Erin: We're doing well. Bob: Doing wonderful, glad to be here. Jeff Thompson: Well, thank you for taking the time, coming on to Job Insights. It's exciting, it's exciting. I read Erin's article on Facebook and yeah, I really liked it. Bang, here we are. Let's start it out by what got you started with White Cane Coffee? Erin: Well, honestly it started with me having a bad day, and so just it's hard when you're disabled and trying to find a job and just, it's frustrating. When I'm frustrated like that, me and my dad will play games, like we'll create [inaudible] or in this case we were just like, if you had x amount of money, what would you do to grow it? And so one day we started with a coffee company and then we just kept talking about this coffee company just like, well, what would you do with this, or what would you do with that? It's just like, well, why not hire people with disabilities for one thing, and just it kept growing until eventually were just like, Oh, we're actually doing this, aren't we? Bob: Yeah. That was about six months ago, and so then it was just doing research, figuring out exactly what it was going to take to create this coffee company. And so that meant we needed an accountant, we needed an attorney, we needed to figure out how we were going to get our coffee roasted, packaging, getting the shipping, getting the website up. It became a creature unto itself, but the best part was we had fun doing it and right now, I mean, the response we're getting, even from our local community, they love our coffee. We did a couple of hundred sample bags or whatever, and we just gave them out to everyone, and everyone said, "Oh isn't that [inaudible]." Bob: And then they called back and said, "You know, that was really good coffee. I need more." Bob: Now every time we turn around, somebody's calling us up saying, "We need more." That's our whole thing is getting the word out, letting people know we have great coffee. Serena Gilbert: That's fantastic, Bob, and I know you have kind of a unique business model. Do you want to share with us some of the services that customers can receive from your coffee business? Bob: The key is, they can go online at whitecanecoffee.com, and one of the first things that shows up, the first item there is a sample box because people always say, what is your best coffee? Well, they're all great, so it all depends on the customer. We suggest to them, order up the sample box, try them all, find the one that fits your likes, then order whether it's subscription or it's a [inaudible], whatever the case may be, but we want them to find the one they like the best. That's really our model, that in a nutshell is our coffee is roasted fresh for them. Most coffees that you get, say at a grocery store and some of the big names that I'm not going to mention but we all know who they are, those sit in a warehouse for up to a year before they even get to the store. We like our coffee what, how old Erin? Erin: About a week fresh, so from the time we package that to the point where it gets to your door, it's only about a week old, so you know you're going to get the freshest cup of coffee that you are able to have. Jeff Thompson: I couldn't help it but I saw one on there that was called high octane. Bob: Yeah, that one's double the caffeine, double the fun. Serena Gilbert: Do not ship that one too Jeff, Oh my goodness. Bob: Don't ship that one. That one is actually very popular, especially the people work like third shifts or you know- Erin: The mid night hour [inaudible]. Bob: They're the ones who order it and they go, the flavor's great [inaudible] and we're awake. And I said, well that's pretty much what it does. Erin: [inaudible] through testing. Bob: Yeah, that one was hard. Jeff Thompson: You mentioned earlier you had a tough three weeks of testing coffee and that must've been fun, because none of these go out without you guys knowing what exactly you're selling. Erin: Exactly. Bob: Exactly, that's I mean each time ... We roaster whatever, we sample it. It doesn't just like oh it's good enough. The good enough is never good enough. The product has to be right every time it goes out, because that's our reputation that's on the line here. We're not some huge mega corporation where you get a bad pot of coffee and lose a customer they go, eh. With us, that doesn't work that way. Every customer needs to be happy. Jeff Thompson: And they can find this at whitecanecoffee.com. Bob: Correct. Erin: Yup. Jeff Thompson: That's an easy one to remember, because knows the White Cane, everyone loves coffee and .com, there you go. Bob: That was even our reasoning of naming the company and with our logo, with the young girl, with the white cane, we want people to know exactly who we are, when they see our logo, they know. Erin: It was [inaudible] a blind disabled person or blind disabled people, people and just disabled people, and people, people. Jeff Thompson: People, people. I like it. Bob: But that was it. We want people to know exactly who we are and what we're about, the transparency, I guess is the new buzzword that everybody uses, but that is important. They need to know who we are. When they go on our Facebook page or whatever, and even once the about page is done finally on the website, there's a picture of Erin right there. She is the face of our company, this is her baby. There's no big corporate board room back here where everybody's hanging out. Jeff Thompson: Yeah. Erin: Home grown. Jeff Thompson: It's amazing the way you can start by just having a bad day, right Erin? Erin: I know. Bob: Isn't that how all the great companies have started though, is somebody sitting around saying there's a problem and then eventually somebody says, Hey, I think we can fix it. Jeff Thompson: Solution based, there you go. Serena Gilbert: Well, I understand that you guys employ a few individuals that also have disabilities. Is that correct? Erin: Yes. Bob: Yes. Serena Gilbert: Tell us a little bit about what made you design your business in that way? Erin: Well, if I was having trouble finding a job for my disability, and there is a huge population in our town of disabled people on who just cannot find work, or if they do find work, it's for absolutely a pittance amount of money, so we're just like, let's employ them and pay them fairly. Jeff Thompson: I like that. Bob: We're all about living wage. People sit in and say, well, like I said, you know, if you have a sheltered workshop, there's no bottom to how much they can pay their employees. Like ours, we have one here nearby and they pay about a dollar, dollar 10 an hour is what they pay their employees. You can't live on that. And second of all, with social security at 750 a month, I think it is, you can't live on that. I mean, you can't pay rent, you can't pay utilities, you can't do anything. They're all into survival mode. Well, there's more to life than just survival mode. We want people to have a decent wage, so at the end of the week they can pay all their bills and you know what, there's still some money left-over to do what they want to do and have some fun. Jeff Thompson: And buy some coffee. Bob: Buy more. Jeff Thompson: There you go. Serena Gilbert: Very smart business model there. Bob: That's what it really was all about. Not only have we found work for Erin and her brothers now, but we're finding work for people who are just like her because that's what you're supposed to do. Jeff Thompson: Erin, on your picture on Facebook, you do have a cane here wearing sunglasses, so you are blind? Erin: Correct. I only have 5% of my vision left. Jeff Thompson: When did that start? Erin: I started to lose my vision when I was about 15. Jeff Thompson: Did it affect you in how you did your education at school? Erin: Yes actually. I had to, with assistance, essence basically people reading me the questions on the test. I graduated high school at 15. Serena Gilbert: Look at that, wow. That's not an easy accomplishment. That's awesome, Erin. Erin: Thank you. Serena Gilbert: Yeah, I could not imagine. Jeff Thompson: That's awesome for anybody. Serena Gilbert: Yeah, it's a big deal. Jeff Thompson: Wow. Bob: Well, Erin was in the gifted program when she was in school, and so it wasn't much of a challenge for the school just to allow her basically to test out. It was interesting and it's like, okay, here's all the subjects you can pass everything, you can graduate and she did. Erin: Through the first try and they're just like, yeah, okay, that's fair. Bob: She had her diploma and we moved on. Jeff Thompson: There you go. You might want to give that college thing a try, that might be a piece of cake too. Bob: Someday. Jeff Thompson: There you go. Bob: But right now, like I said, we're challenged in what we're doing and I think right now as this company is growing here, this is going to keep her busy for many, many years to come. Jeff Thompson: That's great. Erin: We're hoping the best for this. Jeff Thompson: It's nice to have a challenge, and to challenge yourself and that's what we all kind of look for, is to accept the challenges and it keeps you waking up in the morning with a good cup of coffee, that helps too, right Serena? Serena Gilbert: Of course. Now if you guys start shipping out hot chocolate I'm in, because I'm not much of a coffee drinker because it makes me completely stay up for days. But some hot chocolate, I'll be totally about it. Erin: [inaudible] considered it yet, but maybe in the distant future, we're thinking maybe hot chocolate or teas or something like that, but for right now we're strictly coffee. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't know she wasn't a coffee drinker. I would've got someone else to come on the podcast, sorry Bob. Serena Gilbert: Oh Jeff. Bob: On of the other things we are trying to do here is, hopefully within the next week is we are setting up affiliate programs so that other people who are blind and disabled all across the country can also be a part of this company, because we would love to see White Cane Coffee basically in every town, business, home across this nation. I want people, no matter where they go, they're going to see White Cane Coffee on Facebook, on Instagram, Twitter. That's the name of this game here. We have a great product, and we want to be able to share that with everyone in the United States, and we also want people to be able to earn a living as affiliates across the country, because let's face it, people like Erin and you guys or whatever all over, and so that the name of the game is let's create as many jobs as we can. Bob: People who will be able to sign up as affiliates on the website and what will happen is, they'll be given basically their own code that'll go on the end of whitecanecoffee.com, it'll be like, let's say in Jeff's case it might be whitecanecoffee.com/Jeff. Now Jeff's going to sit there and say, hey, all my friends, guess what? White Cane Coffee, great stuff, give it a shot. Here's their email address, and it'll be that one there. Any sales that those make, Jeff would then get a commission on. Does that make sense? Serena Gilbert: Yeah. I think that's awesome that you're building that, because a lot of the big company, like obviously Amazon, they have an affiliate program, target all kinds of places. I think it's great that you're seizing that opportunity to allow some of our audience to be able to have some fairly passive income coming in with being able to share their affiliate links and things like that. That's very unique to small businesses and I like that. Bob: Yeah, because we all have our own networks. I have my friends who are on Facebook and on Twitter and everything like that. You have your friends and acquaintances and business contacts on yours and Jeff does. We all have these little things, that's why they call it the web. The more that web over it goes on each other, then guess what? That's when the company grows. Erin: This way, we're not just helping our towns own disabled group, we're helping other towns and the State disabled groups. Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's great. I like that idea. It gives me something, you know, I never wanted to do an Avon, Mary Kay or stuff like that, Tupperware. Now I can do White Cane Coffee. Serena Gilbert: But just this morning, Jeff, you were giving me some makeup tips, so I don't know. Bob: That's one of the things that people always, you know, because we've talked to a few people on the go, well, what's it going to cost us? It doesn't cost you anything. I mean that's the whole key. We'd like you to try our coffee, but if you don't drink coffee or whatever, that doesn't stop you from- Erin: Getting the word out there. Bob: And being involved. Jeff Thompson: Awesome. I like it. Serena Gilbert: I for one, when you guys get that up and running, please send us a link or message in that group chat that we have going, because I will definitely spread the word for you guys. I think that's awesome what you're doing. Bob: Absolutely. We'll make sure you guys get the invite to it and that, and that's the goal, we want as many people as we can. If 10,000 people sign up as affiliates, fantastic. Because that's 10,000 people who are going to try to do something and that's what we want to see. Jeff Thompson: I like it. Let's check it out, whitecanecofee.com, you go there, it says buy coffee. I clicked on buy coffee and I had eight choices. The first one was the package box and for $20, no tax, no shipping, it's delivered to your door. You can sample all the flavors, and the flavors come in, Colombian Supremo, Colombian Supremo Decaf, Breakfast Blend, Dark Roast, Doughnut Shop, French Roast, and my future favorite, High Octane. You have a choice of 16 ounces or 32 ounces. 16 ounces is going to run you $14.99, and 32 ounces is discounted a little bit at $27.99 and you can opt for a one month, three month, six month up to a 12 month subscription. That means it will be delivered to your door once a month and you don't have to lift a finger. Jeff Thompson: An incentive to do the 12 months subscription is there's no shipping costs, thus allowing you to save $7 and 50 cents every month just by subscribing to a 12 month. That's quite a savings. At $14.99 I think it's very affordable. When you click on one of these flavors such as the High Octane, it'll take you to the page and they'll do a write up on what that flavor is all about, probably high octane I imagine, or the French Roast, or the Breakfast Blend. They'll all have a description there. Check out the about page, because that talk about Erin and her story and what the company's all about and it'll have some of this information then it just relayed to you. With that in mind, let's get back to the show. Jeff Thompson: Erin, I want to go back to something, do you use an iPhone? Erin: I use an iPad, it seems to work best for me. Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's good. With voiceover. Erin: Oh my gosh, yes. Jeff Thompson: There you go. Erin: So much voiceover. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, we're all about tech and we love our voiceover stuff with the iPhones. Not knocking any of the android stuff, it's coming along. Erin: Yeah, but Apple just seems to have, it has everything that you need for that. Jeff Thompson: Yep, they're doing good, and so are you guys whitecanecoffee.com, everyone go check it out, go sign up, get the sample pack, you can figure it out which one you like best and then place your orders. It comes once a month, right to your doorstep, and if you order annually, they knock off the price of shipping so you can save a little money there. Erin, Bob, I want to thank you for taking the time to coming onto Job Insights and sharing with us your, well Erin's bad day innovation, her entrepreneurship and starting this company. Serena, do you have anything else you want to ask? Serena Gilbert: Just do us a favor and tell our audience where they can find you on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. Erin: You can find us at White Cane Coffee on Facebook. You can find this on White Cane Coffee on Tumbler, weirdly enough. Bob: We're setting up our Twitter and Instagram pages because Instagram and Facebook kind of work hand in hand together now, so when you advertise on one, you advertise on both. It's always funny, we always say, we need to get some of the big influencers on Instagram or something of that nature, one of the Kardashians. [inaudible] say, hey White Cane Coffee, and things would go insane at that point, but no, the goal is we're getting the word out and we're really happy that you guys contacted us and wanted to hear what we're doing. Serena Gilbert: We absolutely love sharing what individuals in our community are doing, especially when it comes to employment and being able to live a little bit more independently, so we were happy to have you on. Erin: We were absolutely ecstatic to be on. Serena Gilbert: Do you guys have any questions or any additional information that you'd like to share? Bob: We look forward to seeing your podcast, because you're on YouTube, is that correct? Jeff Thompson: We're on YouTube, we're on Apple, you can download the Blind Abilities App right to your iPad and iPhone, any device like that. Pod Catchers just search for Blind Abilities, that's two words, Blind Abilities. Serena Gilbert: He's so trained over there. Oh my goodness. Bob: Sounds great, we look forward to that. Keep in touch with us, we like talking to people who are in the community, kind of how we find out what's going on. We hope that these conversations will go on for long time in the future. Serena Gilbert: Of course. Bob: It's funny, since we went on Facebook and started doing this, you guys just kind of caught our attention. It's like okay let's do this and- Erin: Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Bob: Absolutely. Serena Gilbert: Next step is shark tank, right? Bob: Oh God no. No, never Shark Tank. Venture capitalists are about making money, we're about making a difference and so that would probably never happen. Jeff Thompson: I like that line. Put it on my tee shirt, or my coffee cup. There you go. Serena Gilbert: I will definitely be checking out your guys' website because I do have coffee drinkers in my family, so I might even show it to my husband, because we have a Keurig, but we have the little thing where you can put the coffee beans or in it and trick it. Jeff Thompson: Well, Serena, if you check out the website, they do have a coffee that has low caffeine. Serena Gilbert: Even for you, that would be too much caffeine. Bob: I'll tell you, if your husband likes that robust flavor, get the Colombian. If you like a coffee that's real smooth, you don't need milk or anything, look at the Dark Roast, it is so smooth. There's no bitterness to it. Serena Gilbert: Oh Wow. Jeff Thompson: Well I think I'm going to try the sample because I've always liked looking for that coffee that it tastes good and it does everything that you want it to do in the flavor without having to add the cream or this or the other thing. I just want that perfect blend. Erin: Yeah. We hope you like it. Bob: Yeah, get online after you're done with us, just go right to White Cane Coffee, you order tonight, they'll be out in the mail in the morning. Serena Gilbert: Oh Wow. That's fast. Jeff Thompson: There we go. The UPS or FedEx, one of those businesses know where you live, right? Bob: Absolutely. They're here up quite a bit, picking up boxes. Jeff Thompson: That's cool. Bob: They're happy, it keeps them working I guess. Serena Gilbert: Exactly. Erin: [inaudible] when we first started, they were so confused. Bob: They really were, but now they're just kind of used to it, they bring the truck up and get the boxes. Jeff Thompson: Is the excitement gone? I mean, usually if the UPS truck pulls up in front of my place, I'm like, oh. Serena Gilbert: What did I order? Jeff Thompson: Yeah, I'm like rubbing my hands together. Erin: I swear, the excitement for me is just constant because again, I'm branching out on new things, I'm meeting with people in the community, I'm on podcast now. There's always new things that we're doing in the company to sort of get the word out, so yeah, it's just like, okay, so one part of it may not be as flashy or exciting as it was, but there's a new part that's brand sparkling new and just like yeah. Bob: Like in November, the Pennsylvania National Federation for the Blind has their convention in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Well now they're talking about having Erin come and speak at the convention. Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's great. Serena Gilbert: That's huge. That's awesome. Bob: I wish she can make a difference. We really are looking forward to this, it's amazing. Everyone in this country drinks coffee, 90% of the people truly do have coffee first thing in the morning, that's what starts their day. Jeff Thompson: Take notes Serena. Erin: It's something that's so ingrained into our society, that coffee [inaudible] to help people with disabilities was just a no brainer. How many times have you heard in cartoons like, don't talk to me before I've had my coffee. I mean, when I was a little kid, on Christmas, we weren't allowed to open our presents until mum and dad had their coffee. I learned how to make coffee at age eight. Bob: No coffee, no presents. Erin: Just like brothers have already sorted out the gifts, specialized mugs in each hand they come downstairs, here you go, let's open presents. Jeff Thompson: There you go, and now you can do it with White Cane Coffee. Serena Gilbert: Exactly. Bob: Exactly. It's fun for everyone. I like seeing Erin excited. I like seeing her brother's excited. I like seeing the other workers excited because when they come to work, they're excited to be useful and to have a purpose. You know, that when they're here that they're welcome here, and we adapt to their needs instead of like a lot of jobs you have to adapt to the company. We kind of do it the other way around, we adapt to each person individually. What are their needs, what's going to make their experience here working better for them because we found if they're happy, they're much more productive, and so it's a win-win on both sides Erin: This may sound odd, but with some people's disabilities they have such strengths and others are like one of our workers, even though they are very autistic, they are also very hyper focused and are perfectionists, so we know every label is going to be on perfectly just like, alright, you do you man. Jeff Thompson: There you go. I like that where you're creating opportunities and not limiting them but enhancing their opportunities by embracing their set of skills that they have. Bob: Oh exactly. Erin: Exactly, and once you have the right people around you, it really is, you can do almost anything with it. Jeff Thompson: I like what you're doing Erin. Bob: We don't sit around and say, oh, what can I do? It's more of what's stopping us from moving on, changing things and making things better for everyone involved, and coffee is that venue that is allowing us to do that. Jeff Thompson: Oh, I tip my cup to you guys. Serena Gilbert: We really appreciate your time. Bob: Absolutely. Jeff Thompson: Thanks Bob. Thanks Erin. Bob: You all have a good evening. Erin: It was great talking to you guys. Jeff Thompson: All right. [Music] [Transition noise] -When we share -What we see -Through each other's eyes... [Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence] ...We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities. Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective: Check us out on the web at www.BlindAbilities.com On Twitter @BlindAbilities Download our app from the App store: 'Blind Abilities'; that's two words. Or send us an e-mail at: info@blindabilities.com Thanks for listening.
What we're talking about it this episode! The four key principles to structuring your important and daily conversations Anticipating potential communication landlines together as a unit Using tactical empathy to understand someone else's point of view Why you should be creating a safe word for when you are feeling triggered The best ways to support others through your communication Episode Summary: Often issues that arise during communication are preventable issues that are linked towards our expectations in our relationships. Alexandra and Bob have created a four-step solution to framing your conversations in a way that result in a ‘hell yes’ for both parties. Co-authors and co-parents, Alexandra and Bob have brought their simple communication structure to the masses with their new book and are hoping to inspire everyone to get the most out of their everyday conversations. Alexandra and Bob are diving into all four steps of their communication system in order to create a safe space and support others in your communication. By consciously framing how you ask questions, constantly viewing your decisions as a choice and continuously working to understand your triggers, you can get on the path of no drama and high joy. Getting to Hell Yes is as much a communication tool as a mindset, and Alexandra and Bob’s interpretation of conversation is a refreshing change of pace in this modern world. By being vulnerable, expressing your expectations and truly listening to your partner you can begin to change the way you communicate and in turn your life. Do you communicate well or could you use some work in that area? Give this communication system a try and let us know your results in the comments on the episode page! Quotes: “This is a process which is really good to being a little more strategic about the personal things that you are doing and the idea of achieving alignment” (8:12) - Bob “It can be a little fear-inducing to say out loud the stuff we worry about, but it is absolutely important to help you reduce the anxiety in your nervous system” (17:16) - Alexandra “We realized that there actually is a really positive outcome that we could experience. We aren't just here to ‘get through this thing’, we are actually here to connect” (28:47) - Bob “You can discover so much about someone you have known your whole life. You can newly connect with them, and for some of us that is such an incredible gift” (31:01) - Alexandra Resources Mentioned: Getting to Hell Yes by Alexandra and Bob Find Alexandra Jamieson on her website Find Bob Gower on his website The Essential Oils Hormone Solutions Free Bonuses Dr. Mariza Book Tour Schedule Other Resources: Check out the full show notes page Keep up with everything Dr. Mariza Follow Dr. Mariza on Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | Youtube
Invisible Fence Brand of the TriStates / E2 - Unconditional LoveInvisible Fence Brand of the Tri-States319 Northstar RoadWI 54636(608) 399-1266https://tri-states.invisiblefence.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Pet-Service/Invisible-Fence-209481692915/Bob: People are using their animals as maybe an escape from family or children.Karla: It’s not an escape. It’s actually, in my opinion, because we are very disconnected from our friends and family because we’re more connected electronically. We’re disconnected physically. Years ago, you used to go visit grandma and grandpa on Sunday after church. Well, nobody does that anymore. So that hug from grandma or your cousins or all those kinds of things that you had is now replaced by an animal. It’s unconditional love, and that’s what we all want. We look for it.Bob: It boils down to our loved ones. How can Invisible Fence Brand help to nature and nurture that relationship with my best friend?Karla: It can make a relationship better. You already have a great relationship with your dog, but it can make it so much better. Dogs are like children, and when they misbehave it just makes you angry. A lot of times with Invisible Fence Brand, what you can do is build that relationship by being able to go in the yard and play ball with your dog without them being on a chain. You can garden in your yard, and they can be out there with you and not feel like they’re attached to something. The other thing is that it’s freedom. The other part about it is if you do have problem areas in your home where dogs are naughty – let’s say the garbage can. Invisible Fence has products that when you come home after a long day of work and you really just want to be with your friend, but you’re not cleaning up the mess your friend made, and now you resent them because they don’t really know why they did it; they’re dogs. But we can put shields there, they can stay out of the garbage, you don’t come home to a mess, and you can come home to that unconditional love that one dog that waited all day for you. It’s awesome the different things that we do. It’s just really awesome. It’s cool.Bob: I think it’s pretty cool the products Invisible Fence Brand has that helps us to achieve that and to show our pets that they’re truly loved. What are some of your favorite products that you guys have?Karla: I have so many. It’s proving to them that we love them, but it’s also keeping them safe so that we can keep them and love them for as long as we can. That unconditional love doesn’t last forever. We only have them a short period of time, and so we want the absolute best for them, and to keep them safe. Some of our products that we have that I just absolutely love, I love our shields products. I absolutely love them [and] how we can do so many different things with them. When you have two dogs in the house and you’ve got one that pretty much can go anywhere and you’ve got another one that’s really, really naughty, you can make so that the one dog isn’t affected by it and the other dog you’re keeping safe. For instance, my dog, Ella. Ella is very naughty. She is a 14-year-old black lab-basset mix, as you know, and has the most stoic, innocent face of any animal I’ve ever met in my life. Most people look at me and go, ‘Oh, my God. Ella’s naughty?’ I’m like, ‘Oh, she’s the naughtiest dog I have.’ But what’s great about the Invisible Fence shields is that I can keep her out of things that she shouldn’t be into. For instance, we had a cupboard that we didn’t have a shield in. My husband bought a huge tub of chocolate Slim-Fast that he likes to drink in the morning. She got into it.Bob: And there was a mess all over the place.Karla: Oh, my gosh. She flung it all over the walls and then licked them. It was just nasty – very, very nasty. And the other part about it was that she also got sick. She could have died from that. That’s chocolate, and it was a huge, 100-ounce powder that she ate almost all of it. Not only did we have the mess, but we had the fear she was going to be sick. She had a tummy ache for a couple days, and then that was it.Bob: So the shields will work for something like that?Karla: Yeah. Right now we have the shields set up in that cupboard. She can’t get in there. I have another dog that likes to lay next to that cupboard – a little dachshund named Bucky – and Bucky can lay right next to it and doesn’t even know the shield is there. It doesn’t affect him.
Debbie Ziegler's daughter, Brittany Maynard at the age of 29 was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor she chose to end her life. Her story was controversial and painful. Debbie shares her daughter's journey in life and how she ended hers. Photo credit: Simon & Schuster Contact Debbie Ziegler website – Get a copy of her book, Wild and Precious Life Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Well, Debbie, thank you. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming and spending time. We've had a number of conversations over, since we met, which was probably a year or two ago. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I think each time we talk, we get a little bit deeper into the conversations, and I think we both are very aligned in what we're trying to do with our time here. Debbie Ziegler: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I would love to use this time for you to share a bit about Brittany so people can really know who Brittany was. I think a lot of people know the name, Brittany Maynard. It's become, in many areas, a household name, and I think certainly in California, and a lot of people think of her as groundbreaking, but they don't really know Brittany. Hopefully, after this, after people hear this, they'll get your book, and they'll learn a lot about Brittany and about her journey, but I'm hoping that you can share a bit about that, because I think it would be really valuable for people to understand who Brittany was, what she did, and then what you've been doing to carry on her legacy and honor her, so ... Debbie Ziegler: Well, thank you for asking me to speak with you today. Brittany is remembered for the last act of her life, and those last minutes of her life are relived over and over again and spoken of over and over again. She knew they would be, and before she died, she asked me ... She said, "Mama, make sure people remember me for how I lived as much as they remember me for how I died." That is something that I try to honor her by doing, and one of the ways that I honored her was by writing a book about the way she lived, and I titled it Wild and Precious Life because Brittany did live a wild and precious life. She was very much in love with this world, and when she was terminally ill, she would say to me, "The world is so beautiful, Mom. It's just so beautiful, and I'm going to miss it so much." She did not want to leave this earth. Nothing inside of her desired that, but the fact was that she was terminally ill, and she had a terrible and gigantic brain tumor that had been growing for over a decade. When I look back at Brittany's life, I try to focus on the brain and how marvelous and plastic it was to tolerate the growth of a tumor for 10 years and to, as that tumor slowly grew, her plastic, resilient brain transferred function. I try to remember that. Even when I first find out she was sick, she had already lived a miracle, and it's important to focus that. The miracle I wanted to happen, which, of course, was that she wouldn't die, didn't happen, but a miracle had already happened in that she had lived 10 years with the brain tumor growing. Dr. Bob: What a beautiful awareness and a gift. It's so interesting because many people don't have that. Many people have a, are diagnosed relatively quickly after something that starts developing because it's created issues that can't be ignored or- Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: ... their plasticity won't happen, and so everything changes from that moment on. Right? They're thrown into the health care system and start having procedures and treatments, and so ... You know that this is a fatal illness, even when it's caught early. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. I think that one thing that Brittany and I talked about quite frequently is that every person's disease is different, and it annoyed Brittany that people felt that just because their uncle, cousin, niece, had had a brain tumor, that they somehow knew her journey. The same thing happens to, I think, cancer patients with any kind of cancer. We have to remember, as we interface and speak with and try to love these people through their illness, that every body's illness is different. Just as our bodies are different, our cancer is different. It can be very, very frustrating for a patient to be told, "Oh, well, my aunt did this," or, "My uncle did that." Let's just try to take each patient alone and single and look at their disease and look at their illness separately and try not to bring in all these other judgments based on other stories. Brittany's illness, she had been living with, and the tumor had been growing very slowly, and so that allowed for that plasticity. If a tumor grows in your brain in a quick fashion, a much, much smaller tumor could kill you. Dr. Bob: Yeah, or in a different position, a different location in the brain. Debbie Ziegler: This would be the same for other cancers. It would be the same for people with any kind of cancer. Depending on how that cancer, how that tumor's growing, it takes its own cruel path, and so one of my big hot buttons is that we stop and remember that everybody's journey is different, and everybody faces their illness in a different way. The way my daughter faced it was by getting all the information she could get. She was almost an encyclopedia about brain tumors, about the types of cells that make brain tumors, about how those tumors progress in people of certain age groups. She read white papers. She had a good education, so she was lucky enough to be able to read that kind of paper that might put some of us to sleep. She was able to read it and really extract information for it, so when she entered a doctor's office, she was speaking their terminology, and she was very well read, so that is a different kind of patient. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I would imagine that for certain doctors, that would be a little bit ... I'm not sure if "intimidating" would be the right word, but they're not used to that. They're used to having, to doing the education and kind of doing it on their own terms. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. There is, and there is this paternal mold of medicine that's been in the United States for a long time where, for many years, we looked at our doctors as sort of an extra father in the family that what he said was how it went. We had this paternal model where we never even asked the doctor, "Well, what are my options," and we didn't have the internet, and we didn't have this quick way to get information. In the case of my daughter, she was actually checking out medical documents online and reading medical documents. We're in a different place, and we're in a different time. We're struggling with this old, paternal medical model, which isn't working for us well anymore. Then you add on top of that that if a doctor got a scan of Brittany's brain, one doctor said, "I expected her to be wheeled in on a gurney and unable to speak," because the tumor was in that portion of her brain that allows you to speak and vocalize, and it looked like that must, those skill sets must be gone, but because it had grown so slowly, those skillsets had moved, and she was able not only to speak but to speak very articulately. I do think it was a shock, and a little bit more difficult to deal with, with a patient who's very well read and very outspoken. My daughter was, even from a young child, a very purpose-filled person. I remember they observed her playing when they were analyzing whether she was ready for kindergarten, and they wrote in the report that her playing was purpose-filled. That came back to me as I watched her negotiate her illness, and I thought, "Okay, well, those things that made it difficult to mother her, that purpose-filled, stubborn, willful sort of way, was a wonderful asset to her when she was ill and needed to navigate her illness." People ask me all the time about how Brittany could make a decision like this so confidently, and my answer is that she had the innate personality to question and to, and she also had the educational background that she could absorb the scientific information and accept it on a factual level. The emotional part, matching her ability to be emotionally strong, matching her background to be able to understand the information that is terribly frightening, and which, honestly, I mean, I taught science. I couldn't read it in the beginning. It took me about a month to be able to read about brain tumors. I just couldn't do it. [inaudible 00:11:20]. Dr. Bob: You mean you couldn't do it because it was too difficult emotionally or because it was too, the information was too- Debbie Ziegler: It was emotionally. Dr. Bob: Okay. Debbie Ziegler: I also have a science background, and I taught science, so I could read it, and I could interpret it, but as her mother, having just heard that she had a terminal diagnosis with a brain tumor, emotionally I was unable to read about brain tumors for well over a month. This is a part of what happens to the family of the terminally ill person. Sometimes, they're knocked back into a period of denial where they're unable to look at the truths; they're unable to look at the facts. I think that makes it more difficult in some ways, and yet I'm told by psychologists that denial is something that helps us deal with crisis and eventually move on, as long as we move through it and don't stay in that place. I can testify to the strength of denial, and I can certainly say, from my experience, that it is very important to overcome it if you're going to help your loved one. It's something you must battle through and get to the other side. Dr. Bob: I think that's so powerful, and, I guess, recognizing that it's happening, being open to recognizing that, and that it's normal, and you don't have to rush yourself through it, because it is a process, but if you're not aware that that's what's happening, then it seems like it's the reality and it's appropriate, and would be much more difficult to get through it and be of support as you ultimately want and need to be, so ... Debbie Ziegler: Particularly if the patient gets to the point where they are out of denial. Many terminally ill people quietly, but firmly, believe that they have a pretty good handle on how much time they have. Something inside them says it's not going to be more than a few months, but they, if they're surrounded by people who are in denial, they have no one to discuss that with. They have no one to say, "Look, I'm dying." My daughter, because of her youth and because of who she was, said to me in the hospital one night, she was in her bed, and I was climbing on to a gurney next to her, and she said to me, "Mama, you get that I'm dying, don't you? I need you to get this." It just ripped my heart out, but at the same time, I realized, "Oh, my goodness. I have to look at this. I have to turn around. I have to stop running and pretending that I can find some miraculous doctor in some other country," which is what I was dreaming of at that point. "I have to turn around and look at my child who is telling me, 'I'm dying.' I have to be with her in that moment." I'm telling you, it's hard, and I'm also telling you it's really important for the patient, really important for the patient to be able to say, "The people that love me get it. They get it. I'm dying, and they get it." Dr. Bob: "And stop wasting my time." Right? "I'm-" Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: "Be here with me, because we don't have a lot of time for what we need to do." Debbie Ziegler: In her case, she wanted us to listen to what her desire was for the rest of her life, what it was going to look like, because being told that she had about six months to live, Brittany immediately sprang into her list of, she had a bucket list of places she wanted to visit. She had a list of people she wanted to talk to before she died. She had a list of accomplishments that she wanted to be able to be a part of, which included, in the beginning, she wanted to write some articles. She decided she wanted to write articles because the medication she was on to keep the pressure in her cranium down from this gigantic tumor causing this pressure, she was taking a lot of steroids, strong steroid medication, and steroid medication at that level has some pretty gnarly side effects. It makes you get this round, very full face, which they refer to in medicine as a moon face. Brittany thought, "All right, because I don't want anybody taking pictures of my moon face, and that way, I can write an article and still have an impact and advocate for other terminally ill patients, but I won't be seen." Then as it turned out, and as many people know, that is not the path that it took, and she was asked to have her photograph taken, and then she was asked to be filmed, and then she was asked to be interviewed. All of this was done when Brittany didn't look like Brittany anymore, and she cried, and she said, "I just see cancer in that face. That doesn't look like my face. That looks like the face of cancer." I know what a sacrifice she made to do this for people. We talked about how it was normal at 29 to feel feelings of vanity, yeah, a little bit, as you're a woman and you don't want to look bad, and how she was going to overcome that. Of course, as her mother, I kept saying, "You're so beautiful, Brittany. You are still beautiful. It's just a different beautiful." She would be like, "Oh, Mama, you're my mom," but I just want people who are ill to know that those last six months that my daughter had were some of the most productive month of her life. She had a sense of urgency and joy. In between sadness and terror, there were these moments of great joy and satisfaction, as we walked through a particular place in nature that spoke to her. She'd call me, "Mama, come and look. Come and look at the banana slug. Come and look at the starfish. Come and ... " We shared those moments of joy because she faced her illness, and she was not going to waste that time. That required decision-making. That required saying, "No," to some treatments that she felt, after reading about them, we're not going to buy her any significant amount of time, and while she did those treatments and did not receive significant time, the treatment itself was going to deteriorate her lifestyle. Her quality of life was very important to her, and she said, "If I'm not getting any measurable upside here in the way of extended life, then I need to be looking at the quality of the little life that I have left," and so she remained focused on that, and she remained strong in the face of some pretty persuasive and, in some cases, almost bullying that went on in the medical system of, "You must do chemotherapy. You must start it on Monday." Even her oncologist, after doing DNA testing, told Brittany, "You aren't a good candidate for chemo." She said, "Your DNA, your markers, are indicating that you're not a good candidate. There's a very, very small percentage of chance that chemo would do you any good, and there is some chance that chemo could actually make your tumor grow faster because you have a glioblastoma now." Dr. Bob: Certainly, it would deteriorate her quality of life, which she knew, and yet still there were physicians who were part of her team who were pushing her. Debbie Ziegler: Definitely pushing that. She stayed with her oncologist, who she felt understood chemo the best more than the surgeon, and she said, "Your own hospital just wrote a paper about chemo not always being the right answer for the brain tumor patient, and so I'm saying, 'No.' I know that you know this within these halls, and I'm not going to do it. It doesn't have enough of a possibility of upside for me, and it has a definite downside that's very well known. The symptoms that will take away my ability to do some things that are very important to me," one of being that she wanted to travel to Alaska, and she wanted to ride in a helicopter in Alaska and land on a glacier. She wanted to go on a dog sled and cross a glacier. She wanted to move in a dog sled on a glacier that was moving on a planet that was moving in a solar system that was moving. We wanted to be moving in time and space, and we did it. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. That's awesome. Debbie, at what point, at what point after the diagnosis, did the whole concept of medical aid in dying come into her awareness and start becoming a bit of a focus? Debbie Ziegler: For Brittany, her focus on aid and dying came much more quickly than anyone else in her family, because, at Berkeley, she had been in a psychology class where they had had a discussion about end-of-life options. Her class had heatedly argued about end-of-life options, and so Brittany had already thought about this, discussed it, and, quite frankly, been a participant in a conversation at a high level. As soon as she was told, and she did ask directly, none of her family could or would, because we were all in denial, she's the one that forced the conversation and said, "Is this brain tumor going to kill me? Is this a terminal brain tumor?" She was told, "Yes, it is terminal. At this point, until we have tested this cell structure, we don't know how long, but we do know this is what you will die of." As soon as they told her that, she began discussing end-of-life options. She did not know how long her life would be, but she did know that the tumor was going to take her life, and she knew enough from her science background of the course of action that a brain tumor takes that she knew she wanted to be looking into other options rather than just following a natural course. Dr. Bob: How fortuitous for her, not maybe fortuitous at all, but that she had had, been exposed to it. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: Not a lot of 28, 29-year-olds are- Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: ... and so it could have been a very different process, and path had that not happened. Debbie Ziegler: The way she introduced the topic into conversation was, I think she was trying to spare us until she could discuss it with her parents, but she said to the doctor, "How can I get transferred into the Oregon medical system?" That, of course, to everyone in the room, seemed like an odd question, and in the back of my mind, because I am a science teacher and, of course, had read articles, I thought, "Oregon. Oh, my goodness. I know why she's talking about Oregon." I couldn't have told you the details, but I knew that it had to do with the right to die, and I knew what she was talking about the very first time she mentioned it. I knew where she was going. Within seconds, there were two people in the room. I'm sure the doctor knew what she was talking about, although he chose, at that moment in time, to not recognize it, to say, "Well, why would you want to do that? You're in a fine medical system here in California." It wasn't until days later that we had open conversations about why she was interested in Oregon. Of course, since that time, California has passed an End of Life Option bill. I feel that that is my daughter's legacy. I believe that it was her story of having to move out of California in order to die, in order to die peacefully, that touched a lot of hearts and made history in California. I smile when I think of our End of Life Option Act because, in my heart, it's Brittany's act. Dr. Bob: Well, it was Brittany's act, but she couldn't have done it without you. Right? You- Debbie Ziegler: She- Dr. Bob: You were her partner in that. Debbie Ziegler: She had help, and she had many, many volunteers who loved her, who loved her spunk, her feistiness, her story, who immediately gravitated towards supporting her. I have had letters written from all over the world, from all over the world. I now speak with people in an ongoing relationship, some of whom I have met face to face now, and some of whom I haven't, from countries all over the world about Brittany, and some of these faithful people write me every time it's her birthday, every anniversary of her death, every anniversary of the bill being passed, and they tell me how much my daughter means to them, and that they live in a place where there is no law, and that she stands for hope to them, that she stands for hope that one day, all of humanity will treat each other with love and kindness and will not be so afraid of death. It's such a beautiful legacy that it helps me accept that she's gone. She's gone physically from me. Those first few years, grief was so difficult, and I've met so many grieving people, and as I was grieving, I would literally be knocked down to my knees sometimes. I'd be crying on my knees in the hall, or in the living room, or in the kitchen, or one time in a park, another time in a store, like a T.J. Maxx. Here's this lady down on her knees, crying. I would always smile through my tears and know that Brittany would be saying, "Get up. Get up, right now, because you're on your knees crying. It means there's something that needs to be done. Look around. See what needs to be done." The first time, I got up, and I thought, "Oh, my goodness. I just opened an email about how dire the blood shortage was," so I went and donated blood, and now I try to donate blood twice a year in Brittany's name. I pick times of the year when that is hardest for me. I pick the times of year when I know the grief is going to wash over me again. Times, holidays, her birthday, the day of her death, the beginning of the year. I pick times to do the donations when I know that giving blood is going to be this beautiful gift that's going to lift me out of my sorrow. Then I look around and see other things that need to be done. I see an elderly person that needs a visitor or flowers. I see a friend who needs a visit who is fighting breast cancer. When I go into my worst grief, I always hear her saying, "Get up and look around. There must be something you need to do." That is one of the ways I've dealt with grief is by getting up and looking around. Dr. Bob: And doing what, and doing what is- Debbie Ziegler: And doing something- Dr. Bob: ... right there, immediate, in your awareness. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I'm going to, so can we stay with this for a moment? Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I know that I've been with you, and you've shared some of your other tools, tips, ways of working through the grief. Debbie Ziegler: Grief, yes. Dr. Bob: I think I would love for you to share if you're up for it, a couple more, just a little bit more about how you've managed to work through your grief or work with your grief as a guide here for some of our listeners. Debbie Ziegler: Well, in the beginning, I have to admit that grief was like, it was a black ocean sucking me under, and I thought, "If I don't do something, I'm not going to make it." I really, first of all, I admitted this to the people I loved who began searching for things that might help me. My sister came to me with a treatment that's called ... I don't know the letters for it. I think it's PTSD, but it's an eye treatment. Dr. Bob: Oh, EMDR? Debbie Ziegler: EMDR. Dr. Bob: Emotional freedom release, yeah. Debbie Ziegler: It is EMDR, and it's rapid eye movement treatment. Because I told people, "I can't talk my way through this. Talk therapy is not going to be enough. I can't do this." This is a scientific treatment where you are asked to follow a light with your eyes. I was probably the most skeptical person on earth that it would help me, but it did, and rather rapidly. It took me out of this circular, negative thinking that I had. I had a few broken records that revolved around Brittany's illness and Brittany's death, and those records would come on and play over and over again, and this treatment of causing my eyes to move while I thought about this, or while I thought about a very stressful day or the actual day of her death, while I thought or discussed about that, my eyes were moving, and it causes your brain to use both sides, the right and left, and your own brain helps you heal and stop that broken record from playing. That is one treatment that I feel very strongly about. I also used the treatment of touch, of various therapies that have to do with massage and different types of massage, to kind of work the tightness that was in my muscles. After being with Brittany and anticipating her death for six months, there was a lot of muscle difficulty, and so I used that. I also have a sister-in-law who sent me ... I also have a sister-in-law who sent me various scents, an aromatherapist, and she sent me a mister. She sent this to us before Brittany died, and Brittany used it all the time to help her try to sleep. That was a difficult part of the last month of her life was getting any sleep, so both she and I used aromatherapy, which is another thing that I sort of, as a scientist, was sort of like, "How can I possibly help?" Yet- Dr. Bob: It did. Debbie Ziegler: It did. In fact- Dr. Bob: Undeniably. Debbie Ziegler: ... my daughter said the two therapies that helped her the most, she said, "Look at all the doctors we've been to, Mom. Look at all the specialists, the high-paid brain surgeons, neurologists, oncologists," and she said, "Look what I'm down to in the last weeks of my life. I'm down to massage and aromatherapy, and these are the two things that soothe me and help me." She used them right up to the end, and she developed a relationship with her masseuse, and she developed a relationship with my sister-in-law, who sent the aromatherapy. Along with these treatments came this human touch and caring that's so important. Dr. Bob: You're singing my tune. I mean, those are the things, of course, that we try to, and it's just, I didn't know that about Brittany's- Debbie Ziegler: [inaudible 00:35:07]. Dr. Bob: ... about what brought her comfort, so it was really, it's, I guess, confirmation, more confirmation about how incredibly valuable these therapies and are ... Not to throw out every other treatment that is being offered through the traditional medical system, because sometimes those are very important, but the value of some of these- Debbie Ziegler: Simpler- Dr. Bob: ... high-touch- Debbie Ziegler: ... natural- Dr. Bob: Yeah. No side effects. What are the side effects of massage therapy? I'm so happy to hear that that was comforting for her, and also for you, afterward. Debbie Ziegler: It was, and we would go together, and friends would send her massage gift certificates. It was a way for them to reach out to her and to give her some solace. We had a special place that we went to and a special group of women who knew her and knew our story, and so it was a safe place that felt safe to go to, and ... Dr. Bob: And that connection. Right? The connection that she made, which was not, didn't revolve around her illness. Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: It wasn't going to get a treatment or for someone to check and see how she's progressing. It was a human connection, which people at all stages need, and when we can provide that, it normalizes things. It enhances the feelings of well-being, so this is another pretty powerful reminder of that. Debbie Ziegler: The people that worked in the area that we went to, which was Portland, Oregon, we went to a place there, they never questioned her. They never argued with her. They just said, "How are you today? Where do you feel that ... Do you have places that we need to concentrate on? Do you have places where you have some knots in your shoulders, you just want ... How much pressure?" It was all about, "What feels good to you, Brittany, today? Because we just want to send you out of here feeling a little bit better than you came in." There was no lofty goal to cure cancer. There was no lofty goal to fix this girl who had this gigantic brain tumor. It was just, "From where you start to where you leave, we promise you're going to feel a little bit better." Dr. Bob: In that moment. Debbie Ziegler: And she did. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Debbie Ziegler: And she did. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. Debbie Ziegler: Yeah. That's a beautiful thing. Dr. Bob: We talked a bit about some of the ways that you moved through grief, which I'm sure part of that was what you, basically what's become your life's work as well. Debbie Ziegler: That was very fulfilling. To be able to testify was very fulfilling, and I felt that my testimony came from a place that was a little bit extraordinary in that, as Brittany's mother, this was not my first choice. This was not; I did not readily gravitate to this end-of-life option idea. I stayed in denial for a period of time. I had to work through this in my head. I had to analyze some childhood beliefs that I grew up with in Texas, so when I spoke with senators face to face, or representatives face to face, and they were reticent, or they had some childhood religious beliefs that were kind of interfering with their ability to even hear Brittany's story, I could relate to them, and I told them that. I told them, "I was you. I was you. The look on your face, my poor daughter had to see. I see you avoiding this subject. I see you turning away from death. I see you turning away from this idea. My daughter had to watch me do that, and that must have been so hard for her to have her own mother not be able to discuss it, to be in denial for a period of time." I felt that my testimony was from a place of, a commonplace that we had, and I felt that in some cases, minds were able to change, or people were able to look inside and say, "Hey, maybe I do need to look at this a little, from a little bit of a different angle." I felt that that was an important truth that I could share was that I didn't start out all gung-ho about this. I knew what she was talking about, and it scared me to death. It really did. It's an important common ground that we had. Then as I went on and spoke in different environments and different countries, I recently came back from Africa, where I spoke at a conference there where people from 23 different countries met in Africa to discuss our human right worldwide to die peacefully when we are terminally ill, to seek a peaceful death. It was very empowering to meet these people who are; literally, you could almost feel the room vibrating with the love and excitement that these people have about making the end of someone's life more tolerable. Coming back from something like that is just, infuses me more with energy and confidence, and inspires me that this is important work, and that I believe that sharing the hardest parts of how it happened and the hardest parts of what we went through in the public eye and as a family who really didn't have very much of a help and assistance ... In fact, we kind of had to claw our way into a situation where my daughter could use the law. I feel like telling those hard parts and just kind of opening my kimono and letting people see the pain, that maybe they will have confidence when, and if, something happens in their own family, that they can say, "Oh, I read about this one time, and you know what? She was in denial, too. That's what I'm in. I'm in denial. I recognize this." Maybe it will help someone get out of denial. Maybe it will help someone not feel so alone. Maybe it will help someone support a patient and say, "What do you think? You are the one who's dying. Let's make a plan, your plan, your plan, because this is your life, and I want to hear what you want to do." Maybe it will help someone look into the patient's eyes instead of running out of the room and making phone calls to try to make something that can never happen. I just, I think that if we don't tell our story and share the humanness of dying, that we're not going to move forward. The more we keep hiding and not talking about it, the less likely we are to be able to face the end of life, which should be a beautiful time. My daughter showed me that. She showed me that, "Yeah, Mom, it's not always beautiful, because I'm 29, and I'm pissed off that I'm dying, but in between being pissed off, I want to live, and I want to experience joy, and I want to go places, and I want to meet people that I haven't seen in a while, and I want to finish things. I want to feel that I've finished some jobs and some relationships and before I go." She wanted a plan, and I think a dying person's plan, no matter what it is, because it may not be what you, as their relative, want it to be, but their plan is really all they have, and so let's support that plan. Let's talk about that plan and what it's going to look like, and how are we going to get it put in place. I think people don't plan. They wait too late. A hospice is called, sometimes, too late. People end up saying, "Oh, I want to use the End of Life Option Act," but it's too late. They haven't left themselves enough time to get the prescription, to write the letters, to wait for the waiting period. The more we can normalize this and discuss this with our families, with our loved ones, with our friends, the more they can plan and make a good plan, and we can help them put that plan into place, but it's not our job to make the plan for them. It's not our job to get in there and say, "Oh, you need to do this, and you need to do that." We need to stop. After they've been told, "You have a terminal illness," we need to slow down a little minute, and we need to absorb that information with them, and then we need to listen. "What do you want to do? How do you want to live these last months?" It can be beautiful. Dr. Bob: And, "How do you want to die?" Debbie Ziegler: Yes. "How do you want to die?" Dr. Bob: "How do you want to die?" Wow. Okay. I think we came to a beautiful place to pause. You and I are not done with our conversations. Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: By a long shot. Debbie Ziegler: California's not finished with this conversation, and I think we're committed to- Dr. Bob: Co-create it. Debbie Ziegler: ... making the best of this that we can. Dr. Bob: Yeah. There's a lot of work to be done. There's a lot of lives to support, and so we will have, you and I will have more conversations, and I would love ... I know we talked a bit about what came out of this conference in South Africa. Another podcast devoted to that would be wonderful- Debbie Ziegler: That would be great. Dr. Bob: ... because that would be very educational for people to see what's going on in the rest of the world and what we have to aspire to. Can you share how people can read more about the story and get more information about you and Brittany? Debbie Ziegler: Oh, the book I wrote about Brittany was published by Simon & Schuster, and it is available on all the major online vehicles that you can buy books, I mean, every single one. Amazon, all the bookstores. The title is Wild and Precious Life. I hope that when you read it, it will make you want to live a wild and precious life, because we just have this little bit of time, and we might as well make it wild and precious. I'm Deborah Ziegler, Brittany Maynard's mother. My greatest achievement in my life, my daughter, who I love dearly, was a great model of living a wild and precious life. I would urge you to read her story and benefit from it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I agree. I second that wholeheartedly. It's a wonderful story. It's hard to read, at times, for sure, but it is a, it's well worth it, and I think you'll gain some really great insights. Thank you for writing it. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you for being here. It's an honor. Debbie Ziegler: Thank you.
A long-time nurse shares her personal story about her father's end-of-life experience. Hear what the aid-in-dying process was like for her and her family. Transcript Dr. Bob: The person I'm going to introduce you to today and have a conversation with is a woman who I haven't known very long but in the short time that we have known each other we've become very close friends and co-creators on this journey around exploring how to make the best out of life and helping to support people through complex illnesses and approaching the end of life. Her name is Jillian Alexander and I'm just going to tell you a little bit about Jillian and then I'm going to turn it over and let Jillian tell you more about herself. I think it'll be a fascinating discussion. Jillian has an amount of experience both from a professional standpoint and from a personal standpoint. We've had many conversations and I'm excited to introduce her to you. Before I go on and talk a little bit more about you, Jillian, why don't you just say hello? Jillian: Hello Dr. Bob, nice to talk to you. Dr. Bob: It's wonderful. Thank you so much for taking time to be with me. Jillian is a nurse, she's a registered nurse and has been for 35 years though if you look at her you would think that she actually finished nursing school when she was eight, so it's hard to believe that. She's been a registered nurse and has worked in both pediatric intensive care units and neonatal intensive care units, so a lot of her clinical work has been in the pediatric setting. In 2012, she completed a Master's of Science in nursing and she specialized in education. Now, she's doing a lot of educating of other nurses in obstetrics and pediatrics. Her personal experience with supporting people has been like many of us in the healthcare profession, we take care of anybody who asks us to and especially family members. Eight years ago Jillian's sister, Lauren, her younger sister was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and at that point Jillian took a leave from her job and spent three months with her sister when she underwent surgery with a port placed in her abdominal cavity so that they could administer chemotherapy directly into the area where the cancer was. She went to all of her sister's treatments and after that, her sister actually did really well, Lauren did well and had five years during which time she was in remission. But in 2014 the ovarian cancer returned and they started together as a family looking at treatment options, doing a lot of research, looking into clinical trials, traveling. Lauren was blessed to have fairly extensive resources available to her so she was really able to find the best care that was available at the time. Despite that, the cancer continued to spread and in 2016 it became apparent that the treatments were not effective, she was getting extremely weak, and having issues with bowel obstructions. That's about the time that I was brought into the picture, so this was late in 2016. Jillian continued to live in the San Diego area, taking an extensive leave from her career, from the family that she had out there, and was an amazing advocate for her sister, to try to give her the best possible quality of life and support during what she knew to be the final phase of Lauren's life. Lauren passed away, I believe it was in January 2017, is that correct? Jillian: Correct. Dr. Bob: It was truly an incredible experience to be a) working that closely with Lauren and support her, but I was completely blown away and amazed by the level of commitment that Jillian showed by her sensitivity. We created something almost like a little hospital/hospice setting and we were able to give Lauren a very beautiful and very supportive environment for the final weeks, months of her life. Since that time Jillian's her life has taken a completely different turn and I'm going to turn it over now and I'm going to allow Jillian to talk a little bit about what that experience was like and what's happened in her life since then. Jillian, a) thank you for being my friend, b) thank you for what you bring to people, and c) let's hear what's been happening for you. Jillian: Thank you, Dr. Bob. That was really sweet. The first thing I really want to say is that, even though I had been a nurse for 35 years, I really didn't know what to do to help my sister. She was so ill, she had a couple of extensive stays in the hospital where they would do another CAT scan and ended up putting a port into her lungs because they had to drain fluid from her lungs every day so she could breathe. I was really struggling to find her palliative care. I didn't really know exactly what it was and my sister was a real fighter. She didn't want to hear and she would say, "I hope they don't give me my hospice card this time." The “H” word was a bad word and so I didn't know what to do because outside of hospice how do I find someone to help me? I started searching and I had a friend, who happens to be a palliative care physician, who said, "They have to have palliative care, ask them." I started asking her oncologist to get me palliative care and they set me up for an appointment. But it was three weeks away and my sister was so sick, and I didn't know what to do to help her because she couldn't be at home in her condition without, like Bob said, a hospital type room in her home. I wanted her to be at home and she wanted to be at home. When they gave me Dr. Bob's phone number and I had the first conversation with him, I knew right away I had found the right person. I can't explain how desperate I was and how many dead ends I was facing when I tried to advocate for my sister even something as simple as helping control her pain. Because she had a bowel obstruction, she couldn't take medicine by mouth, and I knew that a fentanyl patch would help her, but the oncologist said she had to be in hospice to get a fentanyl patch. I said, "Well, why?" I couldn't get her the help. When I finally met Dr. Bob, within 24 hours we had her at home, on a fentanyl patch, with IV medication to control her pain when that didn't work, and everything we needed to keep her comfortable. Every medication and it changed everything from this aura of suffering and fear to there's somebody here that's going to help us go through the next phase of our journey. Finally, someone ... Honestly, Dr. Bob, you were the first one who said to my sister, "You're too sick to have treatment. Maybe if you get stronger,…” because she just wanted treatment, treatment, treatment, and nobody said that to her. Nobody said you can't have treatment; it was a relief to stop trying to find treatment somewhere. She was ready to go to Mexico and try anything she could because, like you said, she had the resources and the fight in her to try to stay alive. But you can't always win. Sometimes you're going to cause more suffering than you need to and that's where you helped us to make a bridge, so to speak, for that next experience, and made it palatable, and made her understand and accept what was going to happen. Dr. Bob: Jillian: It really was beautiful. Dr. Bob: From my perspective, I didn't know her that well, and we just met, and it was a really challenging. It was challenging on many levels but, knowing what a fighter she was and hearing from everybody and her husband who would not hear anything other than full charge, whatever it takes we're going to do it and we were not going to quit. I don't think we mentioned how old she was at the time. She was very young, she was 53, is that- Jillian: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dr. Bob: I knew that she wasn't ready to just throw in the towel, but I think as we discussed the best approach we had to keep hope alive for her that there was a possibility that she could resume treatment at some time so we never ... I wouldn't say no treatment is going to help you. It was really no treatment is going to help you right now and it's likely to harm you. Now, the focus is on finding a way to be comfortable, to build yourself back up if that is possible, and we'll do everything we can to keep that possibility open. She was incredible. She had a naturopath coming in, she was getting infusions of amino acids and other types of supplements that would be beneficial. She had a masseuse coming in and helping to keep her muscles relaxed and she had a team. You were a major part of building this team, but I think what you are lacking and what I was able to come in and provide was a leader of the team, a captain of the ship, to help coordinate all the things that needed to be put in place and keep you and the family from being so incredibly overwhelmed. It was a gift for me and you stepped up like nobody I've ever seen. An incredible champion for her in an incredibly complicated environment. You were my teacher as well and I think. Jillian: I think what I would say about that is sometimes you have to meet patients where they are. It's not about you; it's about the patient and, even though I would've dealt with it differently because I know so much and I knew what was happening, we really tried to meet her where she was. She knew she was dying; she would say little things like, "I don't want a funeral,”—just blurt it out all of a sudden—or other things that she would want to happen if she died. She told me her dying wishes for her siblings and family members, but she didn't want to accept it and actually was taking a medication up until two days before she died that was maybe going to help her. I supported her in that too because I felt it was her journey and her decision to try as hard as she felt she wanted to try. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and she wasn't doing it for herself. She was doing it for her family because she had children, the youngest of which was 12, and leaving him was the main thing that was causing her so much angst. We weighed that when we looked at the pros and cons of that medication. We all came together and we felt like, well, this is a medicine that's probably not going to cause much harm. It's unlikely to provide many benefits, but emotionally, psychologically there was value in it for her. Jillian: Right. I actually felt like the medication might cause her harm but that it was still her decision to try to take it if she wanted. Dr. Bob: If it's okay to mention—one of her wishes, before she died, was to see you married, right? Jillian: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dr. Bob: This was a pretty special moment because ... Is it okay if we share that? Jillian: Yes. Dr. Bob: Jillian had been divorced for some time and she had a man in her life who she was anticipating marrying at some point, but Lauren, she wanted to see her sister married and she didn't want to miss that. Literally a week before she died, she coordinated the family to come together at the home and was able to see Jillian and her husband share their vows and get married, which was just an incredibly beautiful experience and I was honored to be part of it. Jillian: You were the minister. You said, "And the power invested in me by Lauren," but she had been so sick I didn't know if she was going to be well enough to be participating. But she had this rejuvenation and had more energy than I'd seen her have in probably two weeks. Stayed up for four hours, and had a smile on her face all night, and was so happy. I'm not really sure why that was so, so important to her. I think she wanted my family, my mother, my siblings, my children to love my husband as much as she had come to love him. I think she wanted them to accept him and I think she wanted to thank him because he also had come to San Diego and was doing whatever she needed because that's the kind of person he is and she had just fallen in love with him. It was really amazing. It was New Year's Eve and I remember saying to her, "Why don't you want a normal dying wish? Like having Bon Jovi come to your house or something?" I was a little uncomfortable with all of the attention but it really was a beautiful night and I think any of us who were there will never forget how special it was. Dr. Bob: That's for sure. I will never forget it. She did, she rallied, and she was beautiful and radiant, and it was, I think this final celebration that she was able to create and make incredibly meaningful. Then she, like we said, she died less than a week later. You were with her there, supporting her in her last moments. Let's talk a little bit about what's happened for you since that time. Out of this tragedy that was able to ultimately be a beautiful and peaceful end-of-life experience, what's happened for you since then? Jillian: After that happened I think that what came together for me was the challenge of finding you and finding a way to give my sister a peaceful death at home. It started to really bother me that people were dying in hospitals and ICUs, and families were being asked silly questions like, "Do you want us to do everything with your 85-year-old mother who has pneumonia," and people were dying on ventilators. It really started bothering me that we weren't allowing people to be at home. I did a lot of reading and I thought, "I think that this is really what I want to do. I want to help people at the end of their life," because being at the end of your life and having a peaceful death and exit from life is as important as being born, which is where I practice on the other end of my spectrum. I do obstetric clinicals and I take nursing students to see deliveries of new babies. I feel like entering the world and exiting the world are both equally important and we are not doing a good job at helping people exit the world because our education with nurses and doctors is focused on not letting people die and keeping people alive rather than the inevitable. Since everybody's going to die, we need to spend a little time thinking about how that should happen and how we might want it to happen for ourselves. I'm getting my advanced practice degree in palliative care and that's what I really want to focus my career on because it's so important. I'm trying to get it embedded into nursing curriculums so that nurses learn about palliative care and how to get those resources at the end of life and don't have to feel so alone the way that I did when my sister was so sick. Dr. Bob: I think that's so beautiful and I know that Lauren is proud that her experience has motivated you to follow this passion, to follow this guidance, and put yourself in a position to be able to truly help people who are so desperate for the kind of support that you're talking about. I'm thrilled that someone like you —because I've seen your dedication, a senior level of commitment—is going to be entering this field to be furthering the mission and furthering their education of the next wave, the next generation of nurses and doctors. Good on you. Jillian: Thank you. Dr. Bob: You shared with me you have some other personal experience prior to what you went through with Lauren and I wanted to just ask you if you would share it. because I think it was a poignant story and it brings up a lot of the issues that we're still facing in most of the country with respect to helping to honor people's wishes at the end of life. There are now a few states including California that allow physician aid in dying for people who are competent and terminal, but the majority of the country is still without that support and the laws that allow that. You shared with me a bit about an experience with your father that highlights the challenges that come when somebody knows that they're dying and doesn't want to allow the condition to decimate their body and take them down the way that it usually does. Can you share a little bit about that experience with your father? Jillian: Sure. In 2000 my father was 71-years-old and I was living on the East Coast. He was living in California and he got sick, really sick and he was told that he had some type of problem with his liver but that he could get a liver transplant. My dad told me, "I think I'm going to be okay but I might need a liver transplant." The liver transplant is a huge operation especially for someone who's 71 years old. I hadn't seen him but was planning to go see him and my mom called and said, "He's so sick; I need you to come home right now." She was really freaked out and so I flew home that night and when I saw my dad he was extremely jaundiced and I knew he was sick. It was a Friday night that I got home and I was just really shocked. He had lost maybe 15 pounds in a couple of months since I'd seen him. His skin was bright he was weak. He had a lot of his medical records there, and I started reading them on Saturday. I thought, "Oh my gosh!” He had a very elevated liver tumor marker, alpha-fetoprotein levels. Back then, Web MD was a little bit newer and Dr. G. wasn't as advanced as he is now, but I could tell that it looked like my dad had liver cancer and so I decided that we needed to take him to UCLA where he was being treated. I called to get him admitted through a friend of mine that worked there. She said, "Sure. Come on in." I was getting my dad ready to go and she called me back and said the liver surgeon on call wanted to talk to me. I said, "Absolutely," and when I talked to him he said, "Your dad has hepatic cellular cancer," which is liver cancer, which is really bad. I knew it was really bad but I didn't know how bad. I said, "Well, what are we going to do? How can we treat it?" Imagining my dad was going to get chemotherapy or whatever they do for these bad cancers. But he said, "There's really nothing we can do and I don't really think your dad will even live for two weeks." I was shocked and I said, "What are you talking about?" That's a whole long story, but the point is that we stayed in town, my dad had a liver biopsy, and we found out that he, in fact, did have liver cancer. When I found out my dad had liver cancer from the doctor at UCLA it was a Sunday and it happened to be Father's Day but the doctor told me my dad only had 10 days to two weeks to live and I thought, Well, I have to tell my dad right away. He hardly has any time left if this doctor is right and he deserves to know.” On Father's Day, I told my dad I had bad news for him and it looked like he had liver cancer and there wasn't anything they could do to treat it. My dad got the biopsy and when he saw that valid and true he was so brave and he said, “Well, Jillian, not very many people get to know when they're going to die and how they're going to die.” He privately told me, "I don't want to be alive in a coma for five or six days. Will you help me?" He was too weak and too tired to do it himself. He asked me to help him get a lethal dose of medication so that he could take it when the time was right. He said, "I don't want you to feel guilty and if you don't want to do it I understand." Of course, I wanted to do it, it was my dad. I would feel the same way, but in 2000 this was not legal in California so I talked to an oncologist and I found out what he told me would be a lethal dose of an opiate and basically an anti-seizure medication. He told me how it would work. I discussed it with my dad, we got the medication in an elixir form, and it was about two ounces, and we put it in an unlabeled container vial by his bed. I didn't feel bad about it at all. I just wanted to make sure that my dad would know when to take it or that he wouldn't suffer, that I wouldn't have to make those decisions, and he kept telling me, "Don't worry, I'll know when to take it." One morning when I woke up he had been really sick the night before and every morning I would open the door and see if the medicine was there, open the drawer and see if the medicine was there. One morning when I opened the drawer the medicine wasn't there and I knew he had taken it. Other people in my family didn't know because my dad didn't want them to know. It was a really personal decision for him. He asked me because I'm was a nurse and he knew I could figure it out but I wanted to honor him. He didn't want my mom, for example, to know that that was what he did. He just wanted to spare himself and her really the suffering of being in a coma and all of the things that go along with that. He died at the end of that day. He died not as quickly as I would've liked. I kept thinking, "I wish I had an IV of Valium or something to help him," because he was struggling and it was really, really hard. I didn't have you then and I didn't have the medicine then. It was a little more drawn-out than we probably would've liked but I was with him when he passed and it's similar to when my sister passed. I felt this amazing energy of almost like his body floating across the room. I knew when his spirit left his body if that makes sense. He wasn't dead yet and neither was my sister in that their heart was still beating, but I knew they weren't there anymore. Those are the two most personal experiences I've had, but I have had to be with children and babies and families as they died and there is something very spiritual and magical that happens especially when someone isn't suffering and all of those horrible things, choking and dying in that really difficult way. Everybody's going to die someday. I think you just need, depending on if you have a difficult diagnosis, what you're comfortable with. As palliative care professionals and patient advocates, we need to support patients wherever they are on that spectrum and we need to work to make sure that what is legal to do in California is legal to do in other states or make it easier for people who have that option to choose it. People do choose it in other ways. People literally blow their heads off to stop their suffering or to prevent suffering, and it doesn't have to be that way or I don't believe it should have to be that way is my personal belief. Dr. Bob: As you know, that's my personal belief and I completely agree. We hear about it people are finding more violent and, unfortunately, ineffective ways to try to end their suffering. Taking overdoses and things that just end up creating more trauma, and more struggle, and guilt for the family. Jillian, thank you so much for sharing that incredibly personal story. Your dad was a physician, right? so he knew what he was facing. I believe that he gave everybody a gift by making that decision. I just want to say I think you're an amazing human being and one of the most compassionate and sensitive people I've ever met. I do believe that we will have many opportunities to collaborate and to work together in support of progress in this arena, and supporting people through challenging illnesses, and having a more peaceful and beautiful end-of-life because it is possible. I truly believe that everybody can have a peaceful and dignified death. We are part of the answer and part of the tribe of people who are working towards making that possible for more people and raising awareness around that. Thank you for being part of the tribe. Dr. Bob: I think this has been a wonderful episode and I'm sure that many people have been touched deeply and learned some really valuable things. Anything that you would like to say in closing before we finish up? Jillian: I think I would just like to say that there are some really wonderful resources and books that are important for people to read whether they're healthy and young or they have an illness because it isn't something that you want to give no thought to until you're put into the position of needing something. You want to think about it and have conversations with your loved ones. I would say that 'Being Mortal' by Atul Gawande is a wonderful book about life and death. He also describes his personal experiences with his parents and as a physician. On the Internet [Andre-as Val-an-dez 34:26 has a YouTube called 'The Conversation', which talks about having those conversations with your parents, with people that are older in your life so that you know how to support them and what they want. What you'll find when you do have those conversations is nobody really wants to die on a ventilator, unconscious, in a hospital. People don't choose that. People end up getting that because doctors are like I said, so much better at keeping you alive than they are at allowing you to die. The other thing that I would recommend is 'Extremis,' which is a short documentary, which really shows what end-of-life can really be when you are in a hospital and intensive care situation. There's also an article called 'At His Own Wake, Celebrating Life and the Gift of Death,' which is in [The New York Times, which is a beautiful article. I can send you the links to all of those so you can post them on your website if you like. Dr. Bob: Absolutely. Jillian: They're just some nice things for anybody to read and be aware of because the fact of the matter is we're all going to die someday, no one's gotten out of it yet. You have opportunities to be proactive but you need to have conversations with people so people know what you want. Dr. Bob: Awesome. That's wonderful. Thank you. Those recommendations, resources we will have available on our website as well. Just having shared that information for those who follow-up and access those resources it can have a profound impact so you're continuing your beautiful work and supporting people. Again, I want to thank you for taking the time and sharing so deeply from your heart. I'm so glad that you and I met. I am forever grateful to Lauren for allowing me in her world and being part of the team and to you for being such an incredible partner in that and for everything that you're doing and will do. Thank you, Jillian, and hopefully, we will have an opportunity to have you back on here and explore more of what's happened along your journey. Jillian: Thank you. It's awesome to be working with you, Dr. Bob, and to have somebody who's brave enough to advocate for patients and to allow what's legal in California to happen because a lot of people it's too controversial for them to want to touch and that's not helping the people who would like to have access to these legal remedies. I commend you for your work and, if it weren't for people who are willing to stand up in tough times, things would never change and I think that we really need to change how we're letting people die in our great country. Dr. Bob: You're doing it; you're not just talking about it, you're doing it. All right, you take care and we'll talk soon.
Alive Inside" is a wonderful film and movement that awakens the Alzheimer's mind and connects generations, comforting elders and rescuing youth. The film's Director, Michael Rossato-Bennett, shares how it all began. IntegratedMDCare.com " Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Alive Inside website Alive Inside Facebook Page Transcript Dr. Bob: Today's guest is Michael Rossato-Bennett-Bennett, the director of the film, Alive Inside, and the founder and executive director of the Alive Inside Foundation. Alive Inside is a phenomenal film, and I highly recommend you find a way to watch it. The Alive Inside Foundation is dedicated to healing loneliness and disconnection in all of our lives, but especially in the lives of the very young and the very old who are living with dementia. They partner with communities to connect the generations and shift our relationship with life, aging and growing up. The Foundation seeks to end loneliness using empathy, music, life story, and film. This interview with Michael is an intimate exploration into the mind and heart of a man who seems to have stumbled upon his purpose and has been inspired to create in a much more expansive way since doing so. I hope you enjoy it. So, Michael, your life has changed pretty significantly in the last several years. From what I can gather, what started as a project that you couldn't really foresee a whole lot coming out of, to what has been created in your life now and looks amazing. What's it like? Tell me the journey a little bit. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, like every life, probably the most important things are your failures. Those are what you learn from, like your woundings, your emptiness, your hungers. These are the things that actually fuel you. When nothing else makes sense, I'm deeply interested in what makes sense when nothing else makes sense, and I think that's a very apt conversation to have in this time because I'm sure I'm not alone. I think if everyone were honest, they would just say right now, "What the heck is going on?" Dr. Bob: How did we get here? Michael Rossato-Bennett: How did we get here? How do we tell our children your president doesn't tell the truth all the time? How do we say your government isn't really trying to protect you? We're confused. I mean I am, and I have been many times in my life. I'm going to get a little philosophical here, but I think anyone living in a predatory culture that doesn't quite know that they're living in a predatory culture, has a feeling of disquiet and confusion, and like all of us who are trying to do something in the world, our efforts are constantly called into question. What am I doing? Am I helping create a just world? Am I helping create a world where life is recognizing and aiding life, or am I deeply investing in a system that is reducing the quality of life, literally for the planet at this time? I think every one of our occupations, from farmer to doctor, has to wrestle with these questions right now, what is my place in this world that we've created, and, unfortunately, we don't get to remove ourselves from it I don't think. Dr. Bob: It's interesting. As you're talking about this, and I don't know if you have children or not, but as you're talking about this, I'm flashing on my 11-year-old son, who is right at the verge ... If I asked him what does it feel like to live in a predatory world, I think he would know enough about what I'm asking to form an opinion and connect with it. But I, also, feel like he's still living in this other world where he can slip back into this sense of comfort and not allow that to influence his day to day existence. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I mean this is at the core of everything I'm working on, and it's simply the recognition of the idea that we actually do mature, that there is actually an arc to our lives. When I was 21, I was competing my ass off to win the steak knives at my job for Cool Vent Aluminum telephone salesmen. I wanted to be the best Cool Vent Aluminum salesman because the sales manager told me that I was nothing if I couldn't book these appointments for his salesmen to sell this poor, older people aluminum siding and new windows. Dr. Bob: And you believed that? You believed that story. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I believed it. Dr. Bob: Yeah, you did. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I believed it, and really, honestly at that point, all I wanted to do was be good, be recognized, to succeed, to have some validation, and honestly, I didn't think that the people who were in authority, that the people who were older than I was, I didn't think that they didn't know what they were doing. I thought they knew what they were doing. But your 11-year-old son, he's awakening in a world where it's obvious that we don't know what's going on, that something is happening, and it's amazing what's happening. I mean basically what's happening is we're going through a major psychic, intellectual, spiritual, existential definition of what it means to be human, and what it means to be human together, and ideas that we've had for thousands of years are no longer functional in the face of these incredible tools that we've created in the last 20 or 30 years. The computer has just turned human culture on its head, and we are not ready for it. Dr. Bob: Right. Michael Rossato-Bennett: And we're innocents, and I think in a hundred years we'll look back and this and go ... Just like slavery. At one point, slavery seemed to be a pretty good business model. We try not to do that anymore, at least in a recognizable form. But in a non-recognizable form, we haven't given up that business model, and that's what we're dealing with. I mean you're a doctor, and I work in healthcare to some degree as well, and Marshall McLuhan is a great media thinker, a thinker about media, and he said years and ... Maybe 60 years ago or 50 years ago, he said, "The medium is the message," and I never understood what that meant, but I understand what that means now, that basically, the structures that we create determine the outcomes, no matter who is in them, or no matter what the outcomes are. When you have a lot of people making money on petroleum, you get plastic in the ocean. It doesn't matter what people do. In 50 years, we won't be relying on petroleum. We won't have the pressure to create as much plastic, and maybe we can solve that problem. Dr. Bob: Well, so fascinating. Great perspective. Love it. Not exactly where I was anticipating the conversation was going to go, but I love it, and I want to hear ... So you take that. I'm sure that your awareness is continuing to mature, to evolve, and it's influenced by and influencing what you are doing day to day to improve the lives of the human beings that you're concerned about, as we both are. What's happening in your life? I want to know what you're doing. What's the Foundation doing? How are you right now serving in a way that is trying to achieve the most benefit for humankind? Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, I mean that's a big thing to say. Dr. Bob: I know. Because it's happening. What you're doing is serving humankind in a positive way. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Right, right. I'm not young. I'm not a child anymore, and you get to a certain point in your life, and you ask yourself, "Okay. What can I do to help other people," because helping yourself is kind of boring after a while. It just becomes boring. So you want to expand your relationships with other people, and it's interesting. Dr. Bob: I lost you for a second there. You said interesting, and then I lost you. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I was relating to these thoughts. Okay. Sorry. All of my thinking comes out of working with these elders with dementia and meeting them. You're right when you say my life has transformed. I mean I walked into my first nursing home, and I wanted to run because I'd had really some very traumatic experiences in hospitals when I was a child. They put that ether on my face. I don't think they do that anymore, and I struggled and screamed, and yelled, and fought. They finally just gave me shots in my butt. But that smell of health care, of the hospital, I swore I would never, ever step inside a hospital or a healthcare facility, place forever. I promised myself I would never, ever do that. Then here I am. I had been hired to make a website for a guy who was bringing iPods into nursing homes, and he thought that it would be a good, new thing to do, and so I did it. There I was sitting in front of a man, Henry. He was the first one that I really saw the power of music to wake the hidden vitality of a mind, a mind that had lost its capacity to connect with itself and with others. I didn't want to be there. It was very sad for me to see this human being, this shell, if you will, of a human being, who didn't seem to be able to come out of that shell. Then we gave him ... Millions of people have seen this clip. Actually, over 100 million people have seen this clip. Dr. Bob: Really. That's where it's at, at this point. Incredible. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, it was actually one of the earlier clips to go viral on Facebook. So it was still back when Facebook was becoming before they put all these clamps and started monetizing everyone's life. It was back when they were giving it away so that people would join, and so it's a completely different animal now, and that's what we're discovering right now, and a very dangerous animal as well. But anyway, so here's Henry, and we give him some Cab Calloway, and I get to experience a human being awakening. This guy, he starts moving, and his eyes light up, and he starts singing. He starts making poetry. When I took the music away, I thought he would turn off like a ragdoll. Dr. Bob: Like a light switch going off. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Like the electricity was going off. But, no, there was this residual aliveness and connection, and he talked to me, and he was so beautiful. The whole world saw this. I mean I went to bed that night and my son ... That I posted it. No, I didn't post it. I put it on my friend, Dan Cohen's website, and some kid found it and started spreading it in the Reddit community. I don't know if you know what Reddit is. Dr. Bob: I'm a little bit familiar with it, yeah. Michael Rossato-Bennett: It's a community of young people on the internet, and my son is in that community, and he saw ... He came into my room. He said, "Dad, they're talking about your film on Reddit," and I was like, "Really," and he goes, "Yeah. It's gone from 300 views to 400 views," and I was like, "Oh, my God. That's amazing." Oh, my God, and then we went to bed. We woke up the next morning, and it was at 180,000 views. On the next day, like a million views. It just kept going. But the amazing thing was, for me, I mean I thought we'd discovered the cure for Alzheimer's Disease. I was like, oh, all you got to do is give them music, and it makes their Alzheimer's go away. Then there's, of course, a sad realization that, no, you're just waking up some very deep pathways that are actually spared. They're pathways that are very deep in this elemental brain. Not in the forebrain, which is really the core of I think what I'm working with right now, and that is that when you don't know where to go, sometimes the deepest parts of ourselves hold profound and unexplored wisdom, and I constantly go to those deepest places, like music. Music, by now, it's part of our DNA. It's literally been adapted to our DNA. I mean a child, an infant, a human infant will respond to a beat and other primates won't in the same way. Yes. Dr. Bob: I watched the film a couple times, Alive Inside. I've watched it a couple times. I just watched it again last night. I was, again, just blown away by the little toddler who was conducting. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Oh, my God. Dr. Bob: The natural instinct in him, and he's a little performer. But I agree, you can see it in almost every child from the time that they're able to interact with the world, that they respond to music, and they've been responding to it since they were in utero. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Dr. Bob: And that never goes away, unless you lose your hearing. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Which is another enormous problem. About half of the people who staff thinks have dementia, they probably have a little bit, but more, they have hearing problems. It's an enormous problem in elder care. So what are we doing now? At first, I was like, "Oh, my God, let's get everybody who has dementia their music, and let's make that happen." In some ways, that's happening. Michael Rossato-Bennett: It's hard to realize what we don't know, right, or what we didn't know. When I was making Alive Inside, we had so much trouble getting people to try this, to give these elders their music, and it was really a struggle because it was a new idea. But then the hundredth monkey syndrome kicked in a couple of years ago, and now this idea has literally spread like wildfire across the world, and to such a degree that I think ... I was joking with a friend way back then. I said what's going to happen is some day I'm going to say I made this movie about how you can play music for people that's their music, that gives them an emotional reaction, and if they have Alzheimer's it will awaken parts of their brain that have been forgotten, and I said in five years, I have this feeling that people will go why did you make a movie about that? Everyone knows that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Right, what's so different. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Everybody knows that. We know that, and that's where we are. Everyone in the world knows this now. I mean I had some part to play with it, but it's that hundredth monkey thing. When something is important, and you have a disease like Alzheimer's where there is no cure, and if you have something that can help, it's going to spread like wildfire, and I think that's what's happened. Dr. Bob: Well, of course, it's very helpful for people who have Alzheimer's to try to awaken that and to bring them a sense of joy and connection, but it's, also, incredibly beneficial for people without Alzheimer's, who are just lonely, right? They're just the people throughout the nation, the world, who are isolated or limited in their own homes, or in assisted living communities, or in nursing homes. The ability to give somebody, to connect them with the music that has been meaningful for them at various points of their life, brings joy, brings comfort, brings connection. There's no way to understate the impact. So understanding that I'm curious ... I'm in San Diego. I have a concierge practice, and I take care of people who are in their homes who are dealing with end-of-life issues. They have dementia. They have cancer. They have heart disease. It's a small practice. It's like a concierge practice for people with complex illnesses and who are approaching the end of their life. As part of that, we have integrated therapies, and I have a couple of music therapists who go out. They're angels. They connect with the patients, and we see them flower. We see them blossom. Some of our patients, with these therapies, music, massage, acupuncture, reiki, they go from being bedbound, and miserable, and wanting to die, to get re-engaged with life and getting- Michael Rossato-Bennett: And it makes sense. Dr. Bob: And it makes sense, total, and I go into nursing homes, and I'll see people there, and we just created a foundation. We just got the 501c3 determination from the IRS, so we're ready to make this thing happen. How do we take advantage of what you have created to implement and leverage that in San Diego? Let's talk about how this is actually happening on the ground. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Okay. Well, first of all, you've opened up some really big cans of worms here. Dr. Bob: I have a knack for doing that. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Most of the people who have dementia and Alzheimer's, they are not in institutions. They live at home, and we have a culture that defines people as valuable to the degree that they're productive, and it's deeply ingrained in us. It's ingrained in our religion, and our morality, and our laws, even to the point where we've created lots of meaningless work, just because people want to be working, and the dark side of that, not the meaningless work, but this idea that we have no value unless we're productive, is the elders that you're finding. What is their productivity when they're just sitting? They can see their death, and they probably feel they're not contributing. As a matter of fact, they might even feel that they're a burden, which is a horrible thing for a human being to feel. One of the things that I've been so intrigued about, about people with Alzheimer's, is they forget so much, but it's strange what they don't forget. They don't forget what they used to be. They don't forget that they're having trouble communicating, and they used to be able to communicate, or at least it seems like that to me. You opened up another can of worms, which is loneliness. The UK just appointed a minister of loneliness. 40% of Americans report problems with feeling lonely. We're discovering the dark side of social media, which is this capacity that it has to make people judge themselves, their real life against the sort of phony life that's presented one snapshot at a time and edited and Photoshopped. People feel this kind of not being good enough, and when you feel not good enough, you feel separate, and when you feel separate, you feel alone, and that is one of the greatest pains a human being can ever feel, and that's really ... I had a very hard time growing up and a lot of isolation, and I shut myself down in many ways, and that's why when I saw this older man, Henry, wake up, I was like, "Oh, my goodness. Oh, my God, we can wake up. We can be awakened," and that's what you've described with your music therapists go in, and these people are like, "Oh, wow, yes. There are rhythms of life that I can share with you, and we can sing, and we can do music, and it can even go back into my memory, and oh, I have these stories I could tell you." I decided that the place that I wanted to play with was trying to reduce pain. Like you, as a doctor, you want to reduce- You want to reduce the pain and the struggle, and one of the greatest struggles that I see is loneliness and disconnection. I feel like our culture ... There are things we all need to survive, and to live, and to thrive, and sometimes commercial society says, "All right. You want those things; you got to pay for them." So it puts walls between what we want and what there is, and that's not really the way life works. If you swim in the ocean and you grab a fish, it's not like you paid for it. Well, you swam for it. That's for sure. Or you pluck a pear from a tree. It's not like you grew that tree. I'm not sure that this sort of way we are creating safety for ourselves is working, and I think it's falling apart in many ways, and so, again, I go to the very deepest place. So I developed these headphones that you could give to somebody with dementia, and it has a little hole in it, and you can put their music in it, and you can plug your headphones into their headphones, and so you can listen together, and your eyes can meet, and you can be in the music together, and I thought that was beautiful. Then I made an app so that anyone could sit with another person and try and figure out what is that deep music that's inside the soul of another person. So you can do that. But the key thing I feel is that what I've learned. If you watch Alive Inside, you see all these people awakening. But what you don't see is me on the other side of the camera going, "Oh, tell me that story. Oh, my God, you're so beautiful. Oh, yes, I want to know more and tell me. Flower. Let me see you flower." We are creatures that are called into becoming. You take a child, and you just put them in a room, and you leave them there for 14 years, you're not going to have a great kid, but if you go in there every day and you teach them how to be human, and you teach them the rules of being human, you bond with other people, you connect to them, you be kind to them, you look in their eyes, you learn to feel what comes out of another person's eyes, and you learn to give to another person through your eyes. I mean the eyes is the only organ that goes both ways. There are both receptors and apparently ... I was reading the other day ... I wish I could quote it better. But apparently, there's something that comes out of the eyes. That's why we call the eyes the windows of the soul. You're a doctor. Dr. Bob: I'm not sure what emanates from the eyes, but it kind of feels like when you're in somebody's gaze, when you're looking deep into their eyes, that there's something either reflecting back or coming out of it for sure. Michael Rossato-Bennett: At the very least, there's expression. At the very least, there are tears. Something is coming out, even if it isn't a ray. But that's the amazing thing that we're understanding now, and this goes back to the illusion of loneliness. We've created the structure where you can be lonely, where you can be a separate entity that doesn't connect with other entities, and the terrible thing is that's engineered. The truth is that we are not separate. We're talking over Skype, and my ideas are affecting your brain, and your ideas are affecting me. But if we were sitting in the same room for the amount of time that we've been sitting, your cells would be in my body, and my cells would be in yours. Every cell in your body I think changes every seven years, and the building blocks of you have been white people, and black people, and brown people, and hippos, and dogs, and ducks, and dinosaurs, and fish. I was reading this amazing book about old growth forests, like dirt. There's no such thing as dirt. There are rocks, and there's whatever, but every single piece of nutrition that has ever passed through your lips only has nutrition because vegetable matter has gone through the butt of a bug. Dirt is bug pooh, and without bug pooh, there is no nutrition in anything that grows. So we're not special. We are part of everything, and we've just created this system that ends up taking our children and putting them in these institutions, and telling them to stay there for 20 years and to compete for a few little remaining spots at some big colleges. As children, we're forgetting how to be children. And we have our elders, and, oh, my God, have we abandoned them. Oh, you're worthless. You just go sit in the little room over there. I'm sorry. Now you got a little emotion running in me, and so I said let's bring these two groups together. Let's bring the very old and the very young together, and what you do when you do that, it's like a magnet. These groups are meant to be together, and they're engineered apart. So basically a lot of people have seen Alive Inside, and they call me, and they say, "Hey, let's do something." I'm like, "Okay. Let's do something." So we're down in Mexico, and there are these abandoned elders, who are literally taken off the streets by this foundation, and of the thousands and thousands that they could help, they can help 250 a year or something, or actually more at a time, because the population changes, but it's only 250 at a time, and they were bringing in these young psychology students who sit with them for 14 weeks for an hour or two, and they detective. They use the app, and they find the music of these elders of their youth, and they listen to it together, and they learn their life stories. We've created another thing called Memories, which is this ... It's a very simple computer program that basically lets you create a digital, communally create a digital scrapbook for somebody. My vision is it's going to happen I the next year, is I want every hospital room, every nursing home, that you're going to be able to go and some volunteer will have created the life story for these elders, so that anyone in the healthcare community can just scan the QR code on their picture ... We're making these necklaces for them, and you'll know their life story in two minutes. You'll know where they came from, who they loved, what they did. Dr. Bob: I love that. Michael Rossato-Bennett: What their music was because it's just crazy. I've seen so many healthcare situations, where I've seen people care for people for 10 years, and love them, and not know who they were. Dr. Bob: Exactly. Not know a thing about them. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Not know a thing about them. Dr. Bob: Right. And that's what drove me crazy for years and years. I was an emergency physician, and I see these incredible people coming through, and they're a shell. They're in this shell, and if someone takes the time to actually connect with them and ask them something beyond when's the last time you have a bowel movement? Where does it hurt? But to actually be interested in who they are. I was just memorized, fascinated by what would come out, and that's a lot of why I transitioned in my career into doing something where I got to honor these people for the person they are and always have been, even though at this stage, it's physically they're different. The spirit inside of them, the essence of that person is unchanged from where it was when they were flying bombers in World War II, or dancing in competitions at 18 in the 1930s. And so what we do, I think we are aligned in the work that we're doing. I will want to connect with you further because I really do want to talk about how to bring the programs that you're talking about, especially the program with the youth together with the elders, and sharing this. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Oh, I would love to talk. Dr. Bob: So we may end up trying to schedule a second call. I'm going to wrap it up soon, and I just really appreciate your honest, thoroughly passionate view that you were able to share. I do want to make sure that people know how to get more information, and there will be links on my website to the Alive Inside Foundation site, and I'm happy to connect people with you. If you want, you just let me know. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Dr. Bob: What kind of connections you're looking for, how we can help to support your passion and your movement because it's life-changing and it's revolutionary. It shouldn't seem revolutionary, because it's pretty simple basic stuff, make connections, and you create joy, right? Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, I think it's revolutionary. We call it an empathy revolution, because certain things in our human vocabulary have been devalued, and a lot of people, myself included, it's taken long life journeys to be able to just honor the treasure that I have inside my chest. The fact that I am alive is such a treasure, and it's so devalued in our culture. The children, we don't honor the life in children. We don't honor the life on the planet. We don't honor the life in our elders, and it's all there is, and we only get it for a very brief time, and it breaks my heart to think of how many years I spent beating myself up and not enjoying life, and I look around, and I see so many people who are not able to really ... They only get this brief time with this incredible treasure called life. And that's why I bring the elders and the kids together because I think the elders actually teach the kids, "Hey, you're alive, and you're not going to alive for much longer, and look at me. This is what the end of life looks like, and guess what? I'm engaged here. I've only got a short time left, and I'm engaged." It's been shown that older people live with incredible pain and smile, whereas middle-aged people if their back goes out and they lay in their bed for a week. Dr. Bob: That's right. And they bitch and moan about how miserable they are. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yes. Dr. Bob: Well, don't beat yourself up too badly about time that you've lost. You have lots of time left to contribute, and you're obviously doing a great job of that. So Michael Rossato-Bennett-Bennett, thank you so much for taking time and sharing your passion and more about your project and your mission, and best of luck to you, and hopefully, you'll be willing to come back, and we'll do some followup on another episode. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, thank you for calling me, Bob. That was very sweet.
Dr. Bob's patient, Bill Andrews had ALS and was terminally ill. Before Bill decided to exercise his right to die in California, he agreed to do this interview to help others understand the importance of the law and his decision. Transcript Dr. Bob: Hi everybody. I'm here today on the phone with a gentleman who I'm really interested in having everybody hear from and meet. It's kind of a unique opportunity on all counts to hear from a gentleman who has lived life very fully, really did a lot of things that many people only dream about doing in his life and before he was able to really see that life through, was afflicted by a disease that has no cure and is universally debilitating and in many cases fatal. He's become a patient and a friend and I've had an opportunity to really be amazed by his story and by his outlook and approach, both himself and his family. We only have a brief opportunity to hear from and learn from Bill because, well, you'll find out why in just a bit. I'd love to introduce William Bill Andrews. Bill, say hello to our listeners. Bill Andrews: Hello listeners. Dr. Bob: Thanks. Bill Andrews: This is Bill Andrews reporting in. Dr. Bob: Thank you, Bill. Thank you so much for being here. Bill, who's with you? You have a couple of your sons with you as well. Can we introduce them? Bill Andrews: Yes. I'm with my oldest son, Brian, and my youngest son, Chris. Dr. Bob: All right, and thank you guys for Bill Andrews: They can say hello, I guess. Brian: Hello. Dr. Bob: All righty. Sounds good. As I mentioned, Bill is a 73-year-old gentleman with ALS. Bill, how long have you had ALS? Bill Andrews: I'm going to say probably about—I'm going to guess about two years. Dr. Bob: Okay. Bill Andrews: I was diagnosed about what, a year and a half ago, Brian? Brian: One year ago. Bill Andrews: One year ago. Then it was very obvious that there was something seriously wrong. The precursor to this is I had broken my back. I used to motocross and do a lot of surfing and stuff and I had many, many ... I brought injuries into the ALS experience. Broken back. Oh, just all kinds of stuff, so when I finally couldn't deal with the kind of the day-to-day life of my current injuries and stuff, that's when I really got [inaudible 00:02:51 ALS because I couldn't stand up. I could barely walk. I was still trying to surf, like an idiot, but it became very difficult. Just a year and a half ago I was in Peru surfing. Dr. Bob: Wow, but you knew something was going on? You had already Bill Andrews: I knew something was going on. Dr. Bob: Okay. Bill Andrews: I knew something serious was going on. Dr. Bob: Then a year ago it was officially diagnosed and then what's Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: What are things like today? Bill Andrews: Horrible. I'm in bed. I get fed. I wear diapers. I'm kind of confined to my bed. We have a Hurley lift, I'm going to guess that thing is called. Dr. Bob: A Hoyer lift. Bill Andrews: Hoyer lift, and I just get into that and I have an electric wheelchair. Last weekend I was able to get out and see my kids play some sports and stuff, but that's about it. This is where I live now. At Silvergate, room 1-1-3 in my hospital bed. Dr. Bob: Wow, and a year and a half ago you were surfing in Peru? Bill Andrews: When was it? Brian: Yeah. It was a year and a half ago. Yeah. Yeah. Bill was surfing in Peru. Bill Andrews: But I knew there was something wrong, you know? I was struggling. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: Really mightily. Dr. Bob: Yeah. As far as you are aware, and you've been dealing with this and obviously researching being treated. You've been in the system. Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: Everybody, the best that medical care has to offer has been offered to you, I'm assuming. Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: Here you are in this situation. What is your understanding of what will happen if things just are allowed to go on as they would normally? Bill Andrews: Well, as I understand it, I will not be able to swallow my food chew my food, swallow my food. Nor be able to breathe on my own, as I understand it. Dr. Bob: Right. Which is correct. I mean, the timeframe for those things is unclear. Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: Have the doctors given you any estimates? Bill Andrews: No. That's a moving target. No, they haven't. No. Uh-uh (negative). Dr. Bob: Okay, but that's inevitable for every person who has amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. Bill Andrews: I haven't heard of anything yet. I tell people, you know, I'd guess ... Because I have some friends that say, “Well, look, Bill, a cure may be right around the corner. You know, just stay in bed and they'll invent a cure and you're going to be fine." Well, that ain't going to happen. In my lifetime anyway. I don't want to go out with the tube in me and all that stuff. I feel at least now I'm reasonably good mentally and this is kind of where I'm at a good point right now. Spiritually, emotionally, physically. Dr. Bob: Great. Bill Andrews: That's where I am. Dr. Bob: That's where you are. Bill Andrews: Yep. Dr. Bob: What's your game plan? You want to talk about the strategy and what's been happening? Bill Andrews: Well, my game plan is—well, for the last couple of weeks I've been trying to wrap up a lot of little-unfinished tasks and chores that I wanted to complete, little projects, but I think they're doing just fine. I think my family ... I guess the big thing for me is that my family, that we're all on the same page. That to me was crucial. That we all understood what I was doing and why I was doing it and that this was all my choice. Looking at what the options are and for me, an option is not being confined to my bed the rest of my life and being kept alive. I don't want to be a Stephen Hawking, and another thing that I wanted to really pass on to my kids is that I'm not fighting the battle, I'm just kind of lying here. I'm getting taken care of. This ain't a bad ... You know, if you like getting taken care of, this ain't bad. I get my diapers changed, get fed, get dessert. People run errands for me, but the warriors are like my kids and the caregivers and the doctors like you are. You guys are the warriors. I'm just a ... You know, you're the warriors and right now I'm just kind of a settler. I just got to lie here but you guys are out there doing the battle. Dr. Bob: What an incredibly refreshing perspective to have. You know? You're not feeling like a victim like so many people justifiably do. You know, you're seeing it from so many different angles, not just your own. Not only through your own eyes, which is remarkable, I think. Bill Andrews: Oh, thank you. Well, yeah. About 30-something years ago I was diagnosed with a real, pretty bad case of malignant melanoma and I was only given a few months to live at that time. That was about 30-something years ago. My kids were there when I was diagnosed and everything, so I've already fought that battle. I had the tumor taken out of my arm. Had my lymph nodes excised. I fought that battle because I could see there's was a way to win that one, so there I kind of feel like I was a warrior, but here, ah, you guys are. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That battle, the melanoma battle, I've seen how that turns out in most cases, which is not the way it turned out for you. It was, at least back then - Bill Andrews: No, I was bad with the - Dr. Bob: You were well aware of that. I know. Bill Andrews: I was very, very lucky. Yeah, I was very lucky. In fact, kind of going a little off track, at the time I had it they were experimenting with BCG injections. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: Up at UCLA. They were going to inject BCG in the initial site of the tumor for melanoma. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: I sent my path report up to them and they rejected me because the path report looked so bad, that I probably was going to die. They didn't want that on the report. Dr. Bob: Wow. Bill Andrews: I kind of fought that one out anyway. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: Flipped a little bit. Dr. Bob: You faced your mortality, right? You had no choice but to face your mortality at that point. Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: You were what? Bill Andrews: Oh, there is no choice. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You were in your 40's? Bill Andrews: Yeah. Absolutely. Dr. Bob: With children that were young. Right? Bill Andrews: Right. Correct. Dr. Bob: Certainly not grown adults. Bill Andrews: They were there in the doctor's office with me, yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: I think you were sort of alluding to this and assuming that, maybe assuming that some of the people out there who are listening know what we're talking about. But I don't think we actually discussed what the option is that you are taking to handle things the way that you feel best. Can you share a bit, share that? Bill Andrews: Sure. I, you know, kind of put a box on the board. I'll kind of equate this back to my melanoma. With the melanoma, I was given ... The doctors said, "Well, you kind of have three choices. 1: You do nothing because it appears to be fairly advanced melanoma and just see what happens. 2: You look for some miracle cure somewhere. Go to Haiti or somewhere and find a miracle cure. Or 3: Let conventional medicine dig in, and I took the third choice and I'm still here. With the ALS the choices seem to be kind of the same. I can just sit back here and wait until I can no longer breathe or eat. Or I can be kept alive by breathing tubes and feeding tubes and stuff. Or I can do with this choice that I'm making now, which is to go through the end of life in a peaceful happy way with ... I mean, I feel good about this, doctor, I really do. As long as my family's on board with me it's spectacular. I really don't think there's ... The choice for me, and this is easy, you know. This is the time and I'm not going to be kept alive. I watched a Stephen Hawking film on TV years ago and there was a lot of recrimination and stuff about, anger and stuff, by keeping him alive and I don't want that to happen with my family. Nor do I want it to cost eight trillion dollars to keep me alive. There're factors that went into my decision. Dr. Bob: Many factors and the decision is still being made every day. Bill Andrews: Every day. Every single day, Doctor. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: Yeah. Dr. Bob: For clarification, Bill is exercising his legal right in California to go through the end of life option act. To receive Aid in Dying, which means that he's made requests of his physician, who's me in this case, to prescribe a medication that will allow him to end his life if he chooses to take it on his terms at the time and place of his choosing. A second doctor who knows him well has concurred that Bill is of sound mind and has a condition that's terminal. Bill has submitted a written request saying basically the same thing. Four days from the date of this recording, Bill's plan is to get this prescription filled and take this medication with his family around him, his loved ones, and he will peacefully, quickly, and in a very dignified way, stop breathing and die. As I said, Bill's making this choice each day because there's no requirement. He doesn't need to take the medication. He can choose at any time not to, and it's just fascinating to be having a conversation with a man who has the presence of mind, the courage, the support from his family, and knows that there's a very good chance and in his mind an absolute chance, that his life will be ending in four days. I am completely honored and awed to be able to have this really frank conversation with you about what you're thinking and feeling and I remember our last conversation you just kind of blew me away when you told me that you're excited. This whole thing is in some way exciting to you. Are you still feeling that way? Bill Andrews: Oh, absolutely. No, this is a ... No. We're, you know we're ... You, I mean… It's great talking. Let me just kind of preface. You have this really kind way of speaking that most of my other doctors haven't had quite the effect on me that you have. Yeah, I'm enjoying this. I've kind of been a pioneer in a lot of things and this is just ... I'm really enjoying this and let me tell you, Doctor, the thing that's the most incredible thing to me, and this is more of a, really a spiritual and emotional thing, is being able to choose when you're going to die. I've always thought if I were to die the most noble way, for me, would be to be protecting my family, my loved ones, or even a dog in the street or something. If I were going to die, would be doing, I guess maybe doing good, but you never know when it's going to hit, but with this, I get to say the goodbyes. I get to do whatever unfinished business. I get to finish any unfinished business and it's unreal, kind of. Very interesting. I think this can do a lot of good. I was telling somebody this morning that if one were suicidal, the worst way to end one's life would be by suicide by cop or something. Where you actually in one's selfishness at ending your life, you end others. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: Where I think that's horrible and I have friends who have done that, but for this, you know, I'm choosing the time. I'm choosing the place. I'm choosing the environment. I'm choosing the company and for me, this is by far, I can't think of anything better. I've almost drowned a couple of times. I've been in car accidents and all that but this is almost soothing. I hope it really works in the way that it's been intended to work and doesn't get prostituted or something in some way that it goes off track. Dr. Bob: You mean the whole idea of the ability to support people in this way with terminal illnesses and the physician aid in dying? You're worried that it could somehow get off track? Bill Andrews: I hope it doesn't is what I'm saying. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, there's a lot of protections in there and if I have anything to say about it, it won't. There's enough. You know? Bill Andrews: Yep. Yeah. Well, I know. That's why you know, you guys at the beginning are the ones that are going to chart the course and that's I think, really, really important. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and I think it's important for people to consider, to understand that this is so far away from suicide. When I hear the word physician-assisted suicide I understand Bill Andrews: Yeah. Dr. Bob: It irks me because I think that there's nothing remotely like the suicide that most people think about, which is to end, you know, your life because of some emotional suffering or situation that you're in. People who are using this option, like you, are dying. I mean, you would choose. I'm sure that you would give anything, anything, to be able to not be in that position. Right? In which case you would be— the furthest thing from your mind would be taking a medication and ending your life. Bill Andrews: Absolutely. That's absolutely true and I know sometimes I throw the word suicide out and that's only because maybe because it's simple to say that word but I certainly like your definition a heck of a lot better than mine. Dr. Bob: I guess I took that opportunity just to insert my bias on that. Bill Andrews: Well, I agree. I think you're absolutely not. Dr. Bob: This is your experience and you can think about it or talk about it Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: Any way you want. Bill Andrews: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Bill, I have the advantage of having a little bit more knowledge of your background and who you are and I think this whole conversation becomes more poignant when people have a sense of what you've done. Could you share a little bit about your background? Bill Andrews: Oh boy. How much time do we have? Dr. Bob: Let's do the Reader's Digest version. Bill Andrews: Well, we'll do a real quick one, yeah. My grandfather's a general in the army. The Air Force. My father was in the military. I was born in Chicago. We moved to California in the '50s and eventually, my family ended up in La Jolla. I grew up right across the street surfing and enjoying the ocean at La Jolla Shores. Graduated from La Jolla High School. Got a scholarship to the University of New Mexico as the United States was preparing for Vietnam. I didn't do real well with that experience with the military side of my education. Anyway, I kind of did an odd thing. I just worked. I have a very broad, broad work history. Not very deep. I know a little bit about a lot of stuff. I've done engineering. I've done clothing manufacturing. I've made garments overseas. I did some advertising programs for Pepsi-Cola. I was on the cover of Surfer magazine if that makes any big deal. I used to motocross motorcycles. I used to race motorcycles. An avid sportsman, fishing. Loved education so this is why this program that you're doing is so fascinating to me. I'm absolutely enjoying every second of watching this go through the process. Raised three beautiful children. Actually, their mother did a much better job at raising them than I did. I just love learning about this and I am so thankful that we've progressed to a state where we can talk about these things. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: You know, maybe my kids have a one- sentence thing they can say. Not something too bad. Dr. Bob: I would love to get a little bit of the insight from them if they're willing. No pressure though. Brian: Hello, this is Brian and just—my dad's always been a real go-getter in life and wants us to be the very best we can be and always wanting us to be improving and really to be exceptional. Of course, it's been very difficult to watch him go from a very active person and suffering through the loss of being able to use his body. Back on that comment about the suicide, I'm finding a lot of comfort from knowing that you know the cause of death is ALS and that we're able to make this choice. The aid in dying is just fabulous for us that this was passed in California and we're getting the help to do this and your guidance. It's either, you know, going to be that path or watching him really suffer and go through a long and much more difficult process, having a result in a very short time from now that we get to avoid with this. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Brian: Feeling very fortunate and very proud of my dad and very thankful we have this choice. Dr. Bob: Wonderful and I have to tell you, you know, that giving him the gift of supporting him is incredibly powerful. I've had the opportunity to be with many of the family members. The children, the spouses, parents of people who have done the end- of- life option and they are all so at peace knowing that they gave that gift and it didn't always start out— they didn't start out feeling supportive or comfortable with it by any stretch of the imagination but having come through that together, recognizing how desperately important it is to the person who's dying to have that support and to have people with them at the time, you get to go on the rest of your life knowing that you gave that ultimate and last gift. Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Good for you and thank you. This might be helpful for people. When your dad first—and Chris, if you want to chime in too—When your dad first approached this with you, what was your initial reaction? Do you remember? Brian: Well we actually brought this forward ourselves in working with him. We were looking at researching ALS and talking about what we wanted to do in the time ahead from diagnosis and we decided we were going to really come together as a family and we took a great trip together, a road trip, and we spent a lot of time together and had a lot of great conversations. Dad's friends from surfing—he's got hundreds of friends— threw him an amazing party. It was a celebration of life while he was here and that's the way Dad wanted to do that versus waiting until he was gone and having a big service and paddle out after he was gone, so that was an amazing day. We had a band, amazing food. It was a beautiful day at the beach. Dr. Bob: Wow. Brian: His friends made this happen down in La Jolla. We've really just taken this time to come closer together and have these great experiences. We were thinking about how this was all going to come to an end and we were going to ALS meetings and just really learning about it and part of that was just researching. I remember reading about it online and then we talked about it as a family and then, you know, it kind of went from there. Dr. Bob: Okay. Brian: Yeah, just exploring the options. We all have felt really good about it from day one. Dr. Bob: Great, so it kind of happened organically and a lot of times it's the individual who finds out about it or comes to that kind of decision, sometimes having been thinking about it for quite a while and it does take some finesse sometimes and time to get families onboard, so I'm glad that you didn't have to go through that. You were able to just, from day one, be united and working together, which is great. Bill Andrews: Yeah, I think in general we were 90 to 95% onboard in total from day one. My decision was I did not want to be kept alive and if it came down to not eating, not drinking or whatever, that was my chosen course. I wasn't going to put my family—I didn't want to put my family through a whole bunch of torture but a torture for me would be breathing help and eating help. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: And selfishly watching my bank account go from a very small amount to negative numbers. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: A lot's played into my decision, selfishly, on what I was going to do. Dr. Bob: I hear you. Bill Andrews: I appreciate them that they're going along with this. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Chris: This is Chris. I have one more thing to add to that. Dr. Bob: Great. Chris: I think in the beginning we were very curious about the disease and that curiosity led us to read a lot and also like Brian said, they started going to meetings. I was living in New York and I was pretty far away, so for me, it was more of like an academic research. Like what can I read and what can I understand more of? Once you start to dive into that space and you get like ... If you don't have a disease you need proximity to it to understand it and once you do, it sort of is like "this is awful" and you want to do everything you can to help. I think that for other families that might be going through this, I imagine there's a lot of avoidance of kind of really want to think about the end or "I don't really want to know too much about it”. But for us I think having, throwing ourselves into it, it gave us a lot more strength, I guess, to just keep moving through this process with him. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chris: Because we know what's on the other side of it. We don't know how he's feeling but we're able to paint a picture of it by seeing how other people, what it's done to other people. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Now other people will be able to look and have, hopefully, hear this conversation, and the conversation can continue in various forms, but to see how powerful it can be to plan. Right? Not to avoid but to see what's coming, what are the alternatives, how do you make sure that at the end you feel like you have the control you need, that you always would want. The disease takes pretty much all control, at least physical control, away. I imagine knowing that you're going to be able to make this last decision for yourself, Bill, gives you a real sense of control back that's been missing. Bill Andrews: Oh, it absolutely does. I just want to add one more thing too. When I first was diagnosed I wanted to learn more and more about the disease. I'm reading, reading, voraciously and you know, it's all over the place of what it is, what causes it, what doesn't cause it and on and on and on. So I kind of, I started writing originally about my experiences on my blog and then I thought, eh, if people want to learn about the disease they can go to Wikipedia or something. People had asked and they go, “Well, how are you feeling today? You're moving your toes.", or something. I go, “Well, you know, maybe you ought to learn more about the disease yourselves and then maybe you'd understand where I'm coming from a little easier." Because it's all kind of basically the same, so rather than explaining to the same people every other day how I'm feeling, just, you know, make your own calendar and chart it yourself and they can make their own timeline or something. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). Brian: Yeah, my dad's real quick as well. Dad would always say, "Hey, if this is where it would stop, I could be okay. Where I still can stand up and take a few steps with my walker or be able to feed myself and go to the bathroom. Yeah, okay, I'm okay." Then every day we'd get progressively worse and you hit a new level and it'd be like "Wow, I didn't think I'd keep going with this but now that I'm here I could keep going a little more.", and it was just like, and I'm going where is the line? You know? Where is the final level where it's not going to be okay anymore and then it becomes a— there is a point where ... Because as Chris said, "Dad, we're researching." In the end Dad, he was consistent from day one. "I will not be in a feeding tube. I will not be in on a respirator. I don't want to be kept alive. If I have to be fully cared for and bedridden, that's not the quality of life I want to have and that's when I'm ready to go." So always trying to think about, well, at some point we're going to hit a point where you can't move your arms at all. Today he can't move his legs and he doesn't have the strength to do anything with his arms other than lift something that weighs just a few ounces. Pretty soon he won't have the ability to use his arms at all and that's very close so we're trying to stay ahead. We know that there're only a few decisions left. You know, at the very end he's going to starve to death and go through a [inaudible 00:33:26. A difficult process or take this option, so it's been just always trying to stay ahead, but as the years evolved, choices and the days and the weeks and the equipment we need and choices to make has been—it's all in Dad's own journey. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Brian: But here we are and now we're all feeling really good about this choice. You know, given where we are. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thank you. That was really awesome to hear and it's Dad's journey but you're a team and the obvious connection and bond that you guys share in his knowing that this isn't—it's not going to tear you apart, it's not going to destroy you. That you are so together on it and seeing this is the compassionate option. I mean that's going to allow him to slip away so peacefully with that feeling of I don't know, completion or this ultimate sense of connection so that's really powerful that you've been able to create that for him together, all of you. Bill Andrews: Yeah, it's the compassion I think that is so important. You know, everybody can have sympathy or they can have empathy, but all I ask from people is you don't even have to understand it, just accept it as it is and when I tell you how it is, that's what it is. If you need any more information, go to Wikipedia. Go to WebMD or something, I don't know. That's the way I feel. Dr. Bob: All right. Hey, I have two more questions if that's okay and then I'm going to let you go. Bill Andrews: Okay. Dr. Bob: One of them is do you have any fear at this point? Is there anything about this that is causing fear or anxiety for you? Bill Andrews: Absolutely not. Not a drop of fear. Dr. Bob: Awesome. Great. Bill Andrews: No. This is like, you know— Dr. Bob: Oh, go ahead. Bill Andrews: Just a new adventure. A new adventure. Dr. Bob: Okay. That's beautiful. Bill Andrews: Anticipation, not fear. Dr. Bob: Great. I guess the last one is what would you like to share? I know it's not like you're out shouting from the mountaintops to the masses here but Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: Can you distill down your message? Bill Andrews, Big Pink. Bill Andrews: Surfing. Surfing nickname, no less. Dr. Bob: It's a surfing nickname. Bill Andrews: I guess now that I'm looking back, obviously you can't make every move the right move and just a couple of things. I think if you kind of put your life on autopilot— this may be a little weird but, kind of set a course if you can. You know, get a point A to point B and of course, then obviously by judgment is the right course. You know, a good course. Like a righteous course, and try to stay to that and every once in a while get, but because of your autopilot and that comes internally or God or your friends or whatever, kind of knocks you back into ... Excuse me. Back on course so you're not out there one month, two months, three months. You know, kind of lost out there and then you're looking at time bandits and everything. I think it's very important to make as much effective use of your time as you possibly can, and there again, you know I'm preaching to the choir and all that stuff, but I look back at my life. You know, you only have so many minutes in your life and, gosh, if you could just make 60% of those minutes effective and doing good again, all by definition, that would be my—that's my message to my kids. Kind of pick that course, stay on that course, and you'll look back and go, "Gosh, I've lived a good life and I'm proud of what I've done." Dr. Bob: That's beautiful. Thank you. That's really phenomenal. You guys, Brian, Chris, do you have anything you'd like to say about your dad or anything regarding this before we close out? Brian: Just that we love Dad very much and we're proud of him and proud to be your son, Dad. Bill Andrews: Thank you. Dr. Bob: All right, guys. Bill Andrews: Okay. Dr. Bob: Hey, thank you so much for your time and thank you so much for all you know, Bill, all you've brought to the world. I will be seeing you soon and looking forward to every moment that we have together.
Dr. Ken Druck's work in personal transformation, male psychology, parenting, and grief literacy has awakened readers to their absolute best selves for almost four decades. In this episode, Dr. Druck and Dr. Bob talk about healing after a loss. Contact Dr. Ken Druck website Transcript Dr. Bob: I'm here with a good friend of mine who I'm excited to have this conversation with. Ken Druck and I have had many conversations over the years, most of which end up being fairly deep and a lot of insights come out of them. I think we're just both in this space of really contemplating life as well as death just because of who we are and our experiences. I'm excited to have Ken share some of his insights. He'll do that in just a moment, but I'd like to introduce him to you. Ken's work in personal transformation, parenting, psychology, and the literacy of grief has really helped people become, I think, their best selves for almost 40 years now. When you look at Ken, you can't believe he's been doing this work for that long. He's the recipient of numerous awards including a Distinguished Contribution to Psychology, Visionary Leadership Award. He has really a lifetime of service to the community. He's recognized really as a lifeline to people all over the world, to individuals, families, and communities through his work, which includes the founding of the Jenna Druck Center to honor the life and spirit of his daughter, Jenna; and we'll talk a bit about Jenna and the foundation that he created. Ken really has kind of set a new standard of care and healing out of tragedies like 9/11, Columbine, Katrina, and Sandy Hook, and I look forward to having him talk a little bit about how those experiences have shaped his life and his perspective. Ken has recently come out with a new book called Courageous Aging: Your Best Years Ever Reimagined. In this book, Dr. Ken explores the fears, some of the myths and biases in our culture about aging, so it's a perfect setup here for this conversation. In the book, he also kind of debunks a lot of the myths and offers a path to help people immerse themselves in the wisdom that we've cultivated over the course of our lives. With that introduction, I would like to introduce and ask Ken to say hello. Dr. Ken Druck: Greetings, Bob. So good to be with you and in a conversation, in a life and death conversation. My goodness. What a wonderful forum you've created to be able to talk openly and safely about all these important issues that so directly improve the quality of our lives and the quality of our deaths. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. The inspiration for this really comes from life, from just being in this space. You're the same way. You're having conversations with people, both personal and in your professional life. I think, like me, there are many times when you think, wow, if somebody else had been able to listen in on this conversation, how much value would they have received, how much insight into their own issues and their own struggles and their own sort of triumphs. The conversations I have with my patients, with their families, with people like you, I think are so valuable, and I don't want to keep it to ourselves, right? I feel compelled and pulled to really allow people in on these conversations, so thank you for being willing to join in. Dr. Ken Druck: Thank you for having me. Dr. Bob: Yeah, absolutely. In your introduction, I abbreviated it. There's so much more, and I think we're going to have a conversation that will last about 30 minutes. I know that the wealth of information that you have and the experiences and insights could go on for 30 hours or potentially 30 days. It's going to be a challenge, but we're going to try to keep this concise enough, and then probably have follow- up conversations as time goes on. I posed some questions to you in advance of our conversation, and I want to jump right in. I don't mince words, and I don't pull back. I just want to get this out there because I want this to be part of our conversation, and I want it to inform and infuse our conversation. What are your thoughts about death? Are you afraid of dying? Do you have fear about dying? When you think about death, what comes up for you? Dr. Ken Druck: Well, it's a great question that does go right to the core. For me, the fear or the feelings about death are a moving target. It's not as though you run a marathon and you cross the 26-mile line and it's done. I think things that happen over the seasons and the course of our lives ask us or challenge us or force us to confront how we feel about death, and I'm no different. The death of my daughter 21 years ago was an opportunity as well as a tragedy— the opportunity to face down my biggest fears of death. My daughter had died. I had to come face-to-face with that reality, starting with holding her body in my hands, in my arms, facing the idea that her life as we knew it had ended. I thought going all the way back to last year where my 92-year-old mother passed, and I had a chance to help her die. I think the things that happen that we react to or the losses we suffer effect and change and create opportunities for us to face down our biggest fears of death, to comes to terms with our life as it really is, life on its terms as it is, and to settle some of those fears. Now, are they going to be settled forever? Are we going to find peace or make peace and have peace forever and it's a done deal? No. Those concerns, those feelings, the sorrow, the love, the complex of emotions that come with dealing with death are going to bubble up and resurface. We want to make sure not just to wait for death to arrive or somebody we love to pass. We want to be proactive and take steps to get ahead of the pain curve, to get ahead of the fear curve. Dr. Bob: That's awesome. How do you do that? I know it might be hard just to distill it down into a sentence or two, but how do you get ahead of that? If there's somebody who maybe has fear because of an experience because maybe somebody in your family had a tragic death or a difficult death and, like many people, you live with this underlying anxiety or fear about this mystery and when is it going to happen and how painful is it going to be. How do you think people can get ahead of that? Dr. Ken Druck: Well, I boiled it down to what I call the five ideals of courageous living and how we face down the fear of death. I've got basically five things that I recommend. Number one, stay humble, find peace in your unknowingness because there're sometimes in life where we just don't know, and we have to hold that unknowingness in gentle hands rather than trying to force and will it into knowingness. We're basically part of something so big that at times it's unfathomable. The true nature of the universe—where life comes from, where it goes when we die—is an unfolding mystery. All we have to do is look up at the stars to understand that. The second thing is to cultivate a calm mind that allows naturally arising fears and doubts to come and go and learn to breathe and release even those primordial fears. It's kind of a form of surrender, and we can learn how to make peace with life as it really is by summoning courage, by facing in. Third is to take the elephant out of the room by opening the lines of conversation, just as you and I are doing today by talking about death and discussing our thoughts and feelings with people we trust. Fourth, keeping the faith of whatever we believe in our heart to be true or what we wish to be true. It's okay to abide by a hoped-for narrative without knowing that it's 100% accurate or not. We don't have to know with complete certainty that oh, here's what it is, here's the program for death, I read it somewhere or somebody told me this is what it is, or this is my sense of it. It's okay to keep the faith, to have it be a gesture of faith, to believe whatever we believe in our heart is true. Lastly, it's also just fine to have faith in a divine truth without apology or justification. We can do that while respecting and honoring the rights of other people who have different views or different religion or different spiritual path that they're on and a different view of things. Those are the things that I believe we can do to cultivate a courageous attitude towards living and to face down the fear of death. Dr. Bob: That's beautiful, so really this is universal. I mean, it's regarding any fear or anything that might be challenging us or limiting us in our life, not specifically around a fear of death, but that seems to be a big one for a lot of people, right? Dr. Ken Druck: Yeah. You know, Bob. We've got these brilliant emotional systems. They're as sophisticated if not more so in some ways than all the other systems that sustain life. We have this emotional system, which gives us internal signals, radar signals, from inside of ourselves, right inside of our hearts, showing up as our emotions. When these feelings turn up, it's our job to learn how to manage them, to decipher them, to decode them, to understand them, and to utilize them as part of our radar, as part of our self management, and to use them to our advantage rather than oh, that's a negative feeling, I better shoot it. That's negative. We've been brainwashed into believing that there are negative feelings rather than understanding that some feelings that bubble up and surface are going to be sorrow, fear, anxiety, worry, frustration, that we need to read these feelings, not become prisoners to them, but to read them and to have them inform us about what action to take, to inform us that it's time to vent those feelings. We're not built to hold them in steel compartments inside of our bodies, but to vent them in a healthy and constructive way and to turn those feelings into something good. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I think that's powerful. I think people need to be given permission to feel, right? My sense is that so many people when they start to feel something that might be uncomfortable for them, and this is a pattern that develops over time, they feel something, they don't how to navigate that, they don't know how to manage it, and so they just choose not to feel it. They turn away from it. Dr. Ken Druck: They become flooded. Exactly. They become emotionally flooded. This is particularly true of us as guys. We learned at a very early age basic training as a male shows us that to feel is to fail. If you're feeling something unless it's anger because anger is a good. Dr. Bob: Yeah, that's acceptable. Dr. Ken Druck: If you're feeling something, it means you're not handling it, you're weak, you're dependent, you're less of a man. You're less of a guy if you're feeling something because sensitivity and emotionality are perceived as signs of weakness. We got to fess up. We got to suck it up and deal with those feelings. We shouldn't be feeling those things. We become self-denying, self-rejecting creatures. We push our feelings away to the point that we lose our radar. We lose contact with our own radar. When somebody says, "Hey, what are you feeling?" We don't know what they're talking about. What are you feeling? You mean, what am I thinking? No, what are you feeling? How is this working for you? You just got a diagnosis, a bad diagnosis. How are you doing with that? When it comes to some of the most challenging moments, the moments of truth in life, relationships and our health and how long we're going to be here in our living and dying process, those emotions are what gets us through. Those emotions are the very tools and knowing them, reading them, and processing those emotions keeps us alive every moment of whatever time we have rather than us beginning to die emotionally long before our time and disconnect from those people we love. Dr. Bob: Yes. I get it. I think most people who hear this will resonate to some degree with that but obviously, it's not easy, right? Dr. Ken Druck: No, not to summon courage. Just like every other work ethic, everything else, there are times that all of us can look back and count that we summoned more courage, newfound courage to face into becoming a mom or dad, face into taking a job or starting a career or going to college or, even as parents, letting our kids go to kindergarten or sending them off to college. We had to summon courage. We have to summon even greater courage to face into some of the fears and some of the issues that arise naturally in the second half of life, including facing into our own impermanence, the fact that life is a package deal, we don't get to live forever, at least not in this form, and we have to deal with that. How we summon that courage is clear. We do it the same way we've done it before. We face something. We talk openly about it. We air out. We don't try to do it all at once. We strengthen ourselves. We get ourselves into game shape and improve the condition we're in, our mental toughness by doing this, by talking about it, by taking moments of reflection, by summoning all of our abilities to comprehend, to surrender, to let go, and to arrive in the season of life that we're presently living rather than dragging the past around and regrets, remorse, unforgiveness, harsh criticism. Rather than dragging, we have to learn how to let that go. There's a whole university and school of thought about how to summon greater courage because it is a process that occurs over time that we can all plug into, and it's going to be different for every one of us. Dr. Bob: I feel like there's so much incredible value in what you've shared so far. I want to encourage people, the listeners, to go back and listen again. There's no way that anybody will be able to take in what's been shared here in one listen. I really especially, well, the whole thing—but I'd also like to kind of summarize because I think it's so critical. There are so many people who find themselves in this space of despair, of feeling like they can't climb out of that place, it's dark, it's pulling them in, and they don't know how they're going to do that, and to give them those tools to help people understand that even if they can't look at their own experience in the times when they've found the courage to look at others around them, to see that yes, people have been in this space before, and they have found a way out. I think that looking at the whole of human experience and finding examples of people in your own community or that can inspire you. Obviously, if you can find your own inner kind of compass and go back and identify those times of your own life, you'll hopefully connect with that. I see people who have just lost somebody or they're dealing with these terrible challenges from an illness or an injury, and they say, "I can't do this. I don't have the strength. I'm not going to make it. I can't get through this." I help them see, if possible, other people have done this. This experience is an experience that people have had for thousands or tens of thousands of years, and people get through it. It's not easy, it doesn't happen immediately, but you are part of this human race. You have the same inner strength and capacity as anybody else, but I want- Dr. Ken Druck: I like what you're saying. I want to add to that. Dr. Bob: Yeah, please. Dr. Ken Druck: Asking for help. Help is the least utilized four-letter word in the English language. Asking for help. When I think about all the people that I know that I've sent to you for help, you have been an inspiration. Sometimes we can't do this alone. It's okay to ask for help, to call in support, asking others how they did it, whether that's reading... I mean, I wrote the Courageous Aging book so that people would have something to refer to be able to see how others have done it, how other people have tried to run from some of these things and fail, and how other people have courageously learned to face into whatever they were dealing with. So reading a book, reading articles. I think also seeking inspiration. There's music that I play every day because without words it inspires me. It's music that comes from a source of inspiration that's coming through a great composer, so I listen to music. There are all kinds of ways of nourishing ourselves, whether it's music or great food or walking in nature. I think what you said before about remembering the past seasons of our lives where we had great courage and remembering I can do this, look what I did. I can do this. Lastly, it's surrendering at times. There are times where we're standing in a moment of inescapable sorrow or facing into unknowingness or feeling emptiness. Those are moments where it's okay to surrender into tears. It's okay to surrender to feelings of helplessness and powerlessness. Also, that surrender sometimes takes us into a sense of what's beyond this life— of what I call the great beyond, the enormity, to have a sense that we are joining. Wherever my daughter is, I'm going to be with her. Wherever she is or isn't, I'm going to be there. Wherever my ancestors, those who have gone before me are. And with those feelings, it's not only to make peace with ourselves, but it's to free up the next and final phase of our lives, which is paying it forward, paying the gratitude for the blessing that we've had, being given this life, being able to experience all the things that we sometimes take for granted. Being able to give our gratitude by paying it forward, planting a tree that we won't necessarily ever get to sit in the shade of, but that our children, our grandchildren, and future generations will be able to sit in the shade of that giving tree. That is one of the most important aspects of making peace and understanding that it's okay. Yes, it's scary. Yes, it's terrifying at times. Yes, it requires courage that I haven't had to summon before, but that I can do this, and I will go forward. This is the nature and the way of life. I don't get to play God, I don't get to live forever in the way that I know, and I surrender to it. Dr. Bob: It's no wonder why you are being asked to come and be with people who are experiencing tragic loss. You have such a gift of sharing that perspective, sharing the understanding of one who's been there and who has learned how to navigate it. I know that you would be the first person to admit that you're not finished with your growth and working through your sorrow that will never end, right? Dr. Ken Druck: It's okay. You know what, Bob, a mom once said it to me—she had lost her only son— and she told me after a couple of years I hadn't seen her. She said, "Ken, the most important thing I've learned is that it's okay that it's not okay." She said, "It's not okay. I reject the idea that my son had to die so young, that he didn't get to live out his life the way we had all planned. That was my dream, that was what I had put my heart and soul into. That was my future as well, and it's been lost to him. His life has been lost to him and to me and his father." She said, "But I've learned over time that it's okay that it's not okay. Some things in life aren't okay. I'm never going to accept that history as good." It sucked is what she said. "It just sucks that this is the way it is. This is the way it turned out. This is the way history will write it." She said, "But I also have found peace that this is the way of life. I'm not the only one who's suffered a loss of a child way before their time and had to face into the challenge of living out the rest of my life as an expression of love rather than despair. I accept that challenge and I've faced into it, and I'm learning how to live forward in my life and to make my life an expression of the love that never dies rather than to despair over the fact that my son died young." Dr. Bob: Conceptually it's powerful, but really in practicality, it is as well. I'm around, as you are as well, a lot of people who are anticipating an upcoming loss of a loved one or who have experienced the loss of a loved one. I think one of the most powerful and valuable ways for them to go forward is with the understanding that their loved one, their son, their daughter, their brother, sister, wife, husband, father, that they would never want that person, those loved ones who are left behind, to hold back, to be held back because of that loss. It's honoring those who have gone by living your life as completely, fully, forcefully, intentionally as possible. Dr. Ken Druck: Exactly. You and I talked about it, and I have my code of honor, my five honorings, and that is the core of those five honorings—that we somehow summon the courage to go on with our lives, to write new chapters of life even though they will not be here to write those chapters with us, that we're going to go ahead and we're going to live forward. We're going to go on, and we're going to make the rest of our days meaningful and purposeful, and we're going to keep our love alive by doing one of the other honorings, which is to create a spiritual relationship with them. What I mean by spiritual is that it's the unseen, unknown conversation we have purely out of faith. When I tell my daughter, Jenna, I love her every day, do I know that I'm connecting with her? No, but it's an act of faith. I'm not going to let that love go unexpressed. When I feel she is close and she's loving me and something wonderful has happened and she's celebrating with me, am I going to deny that arrogantly? You know, I know what life is, I know what death is. She's gone. That's not really her. I'm a delusional father. No. I'm going to allow that love to flow to me. The five honorings are writing new chapters of life; creating a spiritual relationship with them even though it's not what we signed up for. Survival, our own survival, is an honoring, finding a way to get to the next breath even though at times we are so lost and feel so empty and so sad; then embodying some element of their spirit that will live on with us. It could be their kindness, their sense of humor, something they loved. Whatever it is, embodying that and becoming more of that as we grow up and as we grow older. Lastly, it really has to do with how we treat other people, that we treat those people in our lives as an expression of our love because many families unravel at the time of loss. We're so raw, the emotions are so raw. After 9/11 we instituted a program that had to do with the way we treated one another and was an expression of our love for the person we lost, and it was called Take the High Road. Taking the high road, even though there's that rawness of emotion in our families and people want to resort to blame or who loved who or who did what. To step outside of that. Let it go, be forgiving, be patient, be kind to one another in that moment of rawness, and treat our families as an expression of love to the person we're either losing or have lost. Dr. Bob: I love it. Those are awesome, the honorings. For somebody who wants to read more about those five honorings, where would they find that? Dr. Ken Druck: They'd go right to my website. It's www.kendruck.com. They can go onto my Dr. Ken Druck Facebook page. That's facebook.com/kendruck. I welcome a phone call in our offices in Del Mar and San Diego. Any way I can be of help, I'm honored and privileged to be able to continue working with you on teams. You and I find our way to helping families together, and I'm always honored to be of assistance to families that you're working with that, frankly, would be lost without you as a lifeline. I'm so glad that we've had a chance to have this conversation to be able to share it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I am too as well. Again, we touched on some really poignant and important topics and kind of scratched the surface a little bit. I think there were some really great highlights. Again, I think people will benefit from re-listening to this and having it be available. Your website has a wealth of information and support. Before we get off, I want to ask just briefly about your new book because I know that it's been taking up an enormous amount of your time, getting the book out, getting the book promoted, getting it into people's hands, letting people know about it. It's phenomenal. It's called Courageous Aging. I just want you to share a bit about the inspiration for putting this book together and just give a few of the highlights if you could. Dr. Ken Druck: Yeah, Bob. The Courageous Aging book wrote me. This season in my life, all the issues, all the challenges that come up as we get older, especially when we wake up and we realize that we've been sold a bill of goods, myths, and misconceptions about getting older and that many of our imaginings of our future are really saturated with dread and fear and cultural biases. We look at other cultures around the world. In India, when you turn 60, you're just waking up. Life is just beginning. For us, you turn 60 and you're on the back nine of life. Your life is over. You're supposed to retire and become irrelevant. Yet I'm at age 68. I've entered the most creative phase of my life. I've never been more creative. I'm writing books, I'm writing articles, I'm speaking. My work with people has never been better, more focused, more loving, more caring and compassionate. I decided that, as I have in other seasons of life, that the best way for me to learn was to ride the horse in the direction it was going and to write. My meditation is writing, and I write myself into greater awareness. I also share the awarenesses that I'm coming across, and then I'm learning from other people. Courageous Aging is really a formula for aging positively, successfully, in a robust way and reimagining our best possible future and creating a critical path so that we can realize that future. Every chapter deals with a different element and challenge of aging. The first chapters are a self-audit where you could actually test yourself. How am I doing on getting older? Where are my hot spots? Where am I struggling? Where am I doing great and soaring? We can take inventory because everything good starts with a little self-reflection. I think once we've taken inventory we can begin to focus and fashion our course to have our best possible future, and every chapter deals with a different element of what it takes to create that best possible future. Dr. Bob: Timing is amazing, right? I mean, there's so many of us who are moving into this space, this space of, I guess, aging and trying to figure out what does the future hold. How do I continue to find value, having meaning? Like you said, I'm not ready to hang it up and just start golfing and rocking on my rocking chair. I think that Dr. Ken Druck: By the way, you know who I'm getting feedback from? I'm getting feedback from 40-year-olds who read the book, 50-year-olds. We think of aging as an issue for people past 60, 65. The aging angst and biases infect people who are turning 30. They're dreading, "Oh my god! I'm turning 30." The dread of getting older and the invitation to lose our vitality, our passion, our energy, and to kind of shut it down is there at every turn, at every turn of life and every changing season. It's no different for those of us turning 70 in some ways than it is for those of us turning 50. We all have to face it and really take charge of creating the future that we want rather than buying into the cultural norm, which is being sent out to pasture or having to give up things we love. Dr. Bob: I love it, and I would imagine that it wouldn't need a whole lot of modification to be really appropriate for and valuable for people who are 20, right? Dr. Ken Druck: It really isn't because you're going to be changing seasons. Dr. Bob: All the time. Dr. Ken Druck: ...and how you do that and how you go about that should be dictated on the basis of how you feel, not what somebody else tells you that you should feel or do. We all need to set our own course, and we change. That's okay. It's okay to grieve the younger version of yourself. That's all right. It's okay. Grieve it and then move forward because this new season, you're going to miss it if you're so obsessed with what you lost and what's past. You're going to miss the opportunity of this new season of life. Even if it's towards the end of your life, don't miss out on the best part of your life. It may be that the coming weeks, months, and years of your life, if you're given that, are going to be the best ones ever, so show up for it, be there, let go of the past, grieve the past self, and embrace what's right under your nose, what's right here now. Dr. Bob: How do people get a copy of the book? Dr. Ken Druck: They can go on amazon.com, they can go to their favorite bookstore and order it, amazon.com. If you have a Kindle or something, you can download it for, I think, 7 or 8 dollars right away, or they'll get it to your house in a day or two on amazon.com and, of course, it's available in the bookstores. If you have any trouble getting a hold of the book, just contact our offices or go to our website. You can order it directly from our website too at kendruck.com. Dr. Bob: All right, my friend. Well, I think for this podcast, we have moved past the time that I was anticipating, not surprisingly. We will Dr. Bob: Yeah. If you're open to it, Ken, I'd love to have you back another time to Dr. Ken Druck: Always an honor, Bob. Always an honor to talk with you and work with you. Dr. Bob: And you as well, my friend. I just want to share that I find you so refreshing. You are a brilliant, loving, compassionate servant of mankind. I'm inspired and humbled by the work that you're doing and by having you in my life. I want you to know that. Dr. Ken Druck: Bless you. The feeling is completely mutual. I thank you so much. I'm learning how to receive. That's one of my goals in this point of life is to open my heart, touch my heart, and learn how to receive. What's you've just given me is beautiful. I'm going to take that in and savor it today. Dr. Bob: All right. Beautiful, my friend. Love you. Thank you for being part of my life and thank you for sharing all this beautiful insight for our listeners. Dr. Ken Druck: Thank you. Love you too, my brother.
Dr. Rob Jonquière is the Executive Director of the International Federation for Right to Die Societies. He shares how euthanasia is helping people who want to die in the Netherlands. Now, assisted suicide is also legal. Hear how this is impacting the country. Contact World Federation of Right To Die Societies website San Diego Hemlock Society website Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome to another episode of Life and Death Conversation. I'm Dr. Bob Uslander, and I'm here today with a guest who I'm anxious to hear from. He's got a rich experience in caring for people at the end of life, and he's really on the forefront of the movement to assist people in having a more peaceful and dignified end of life worldwide. So, welcome Dr. Rob. Jonquière. Thank you for joining me today. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Good evening, yes. Dr. Bob: Yes. It is evening. For me, it's morning, for you it's evening. Dr. Rob Jonquiere: Sorry. Dr. Bob: Can you tell us where you're calling, where we're talking from? DrRob Jonquière: Amsterdam, in the Netherlands. It's evening here at this moment. Dr. Bob: Very nice, and you were just mentioning to me that you're in the midst of winter, but you're having some- Dr. Rob Jonquière: It's not a real winter, unfortunately. It's too hot. They are expecting a little bit colder next week, of course, in my youth, I used to go skating outside, and it is a long time since we have been able to do that, so probably the climate change, I'm afraid. Dr. Bob: Well, as you know, I'm in sunny San Diego right now, having grown up in the Midwest in Chicago, I had my fair share of snowy, cold winters, so I'm feeling fairly blessed knowing what's happening in the Midwest and the East Coast right now. Well, again, thanks for taking time. We met not long ago, a month or two ago, when you were here in San Diego at a conference, and I got to a chance to hear a bit about your background and what you're involved with, and I think we are kind of birds of a feather. We seem to share a belief system and philosophy about how people should be cared for and supported at the end of life. You live in a very progressive country, with respect to this, and you've been a pioneer for many years, so I'd love for you to share a bit about what you're doing and kind of give us a sense of how you came to be in this position. What was the path that brought you here? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Well, actually, at this moment, I'm involved in the international movement as it is called, the Federation for Right to Die Societies, which is an international federation of 52 societies, like the Hemlock Society of San Diego is one of the members, and I am the executive director of that federation, which implies actually looking after the website of the federation and assisting the committee or the board of the Board of Directors of the federation, and I came there after I was retired. I had been retired from my work at the Dutch Right to Die Society, NVVE as the name is, and in my retirement, I'm not used to sitting still, doing nothing, and I'm very interested in the whole movement, not only in the Netherlands but also worldwide. When I was working at the NVVE, I was started work there about five days after the health minister brought her bill, an euthanasia bill in the Parliament, so I have been involved in all the debates actually right from the beginning in the parliamentary debates, and as Chief Executive Officer of the NVVE, I've been for eight, nine years involved in the practical situation after the bill was approved in the Parliament, and now we have our official euthanasia law since 2002, and having a law is not the end of ... Well, it is the end of a process, but it's the beginning of a new process, to get people to accustomed to the fact that we have a law where it is legal for a doctor to assist in euthanasia, and aid in dying as it is called today, and we have to see the patients get what they want and that the law is used as it should be. And, of course, it's interesting how I became to be the executive officer because my original profession is a family medicine, so I have been working as a family doctor in the eastern part of the country, and I know from the beginning, I always have been very interested in ... Well, let's say, not the patient with colds, or a little complaints or things like that, but especially the situations in which patients needed guidance, whatever they need guidance in, so I have been delivering babies on the one side of the life, and I also became involved in the end of life guidance, where automatically, in that period, first careful questions came from patients especially patients working in the healthcare field, about my position regarding euthanasia as it was known, but as it was illegal at that moment. And, of course, I had never got training on what euthanasia was, how you do it, or what kind of medication you use, so it's using your experience and trying to sort of help people die in a peaceful and dignified way, and of course having been given this kind of help, I have never reported it, because if I had reported it, I would have been persecuted and probably get before the courts, and I didn't want to do that- Dr. Bob: Of course not. Dr. Rob Jonquière: No, and my patients didn't want to have me in front of courts. They asked me to help. They said not if you're getting trouble, and of course, in the situations I'm talking about, it has been patients with terminal cancer situations, who actually were really at the end of their lives, suffering from their cancer situations, although we have been treating with all kinds of care and medication and help we could. Dr. Bob: So, I want to touch on that, I want to clarify a bit for anybody who would like that, this was occurring when you were a practicing family doctor. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, the '70s, '80s. Dr. Bob: Okay, and you were doing the whole full spectrum of caring for people from birth to death, and you recognized that there were people who were suffering, and you obviously philosophically felt comfortable with providing that support, even though it was not legal. So, first of all, the statute of limitations, I'm assuming the statute of limitations, for that type of activity, is past so that you can speak freely about it- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. Dr. Bob: About your experiences back then. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, I can, and I mean, even you can say that is kind of a Dutch culture. I mean, at that moment, I could not go to the authorities and say, listen, I've terminated a life of a patient because she was suffering terribly, so I just said, in my records, that she died because of her cancer, which was actually the case. I only speed up the dying process a little bit. Dr. Bob: Which is the same as the aid of dying laws here in the United States, where the patients are dying. Anyone who is eligible for physician aid in dying is dying. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Certainly. That is now, and of course, in the Netherlands, it is now absolutely normal practice in terminal cancer situations. People are in such a situation, and don't want to go to the real end of the suffering can ask for it, and will get euthanasia without any problem. Dr. Bob: Okay, so let's go back. So you ended your clinical practice. What drove you at that point to stop practicing in the way that you were in that practice? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, you know, the main reason is I have always been interested to not only do my work as a family doctor, but I always liked to work in organization, to support, to develop things, to do on education, or research, or whatever, so I did many things besides my practice, and actually that became a little bit too much for a work situation, and then I got the opportunity to become the head of the vocational training program for family doctors, which actually meant that I could go to work on a university. I had the opportunity to be involved in research, in education, in organization, and it was still inside the field of the job and the kind of work I liked, which is family medicine. So, not specifically my work in the field of end of life, just a change of work from being a, let's say a medical practitioner into a person on university working on a higher level. Dr. Bob: Got it, and through that period, were you still working in the end of life arena, helping patients at end of life? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Not intentionally. Not as a kind of idea. There were other things that I was focusing on. You can say that I developed, in that period, the vocational training scheme for nursing home physicians, which is a little bit that way, and whenever in the curriculum of the vocational training, the topic was end of life or palliative care, although they didn't give it that name at that moment, but end of life care, guiding dying people, yes, of course, I was interested in that because it touched a part of my practical work. Dr. Bob: Wonderful. And, then additional sort of responsibilities and opportunities, and then eventually found yourself really diving fully into the Right to Die organization, is that right? Dr. Rob Jonquière: That was also, actually, accidentally. I was looking for ... I don't know whether you know the issue of middle management. Working at a university, I was all the time in a middle management position, and I wanted to take one step further at being, having the end responsibility of something, and then I was invited, actually, to applicate for the job of the chief executive officer of the Dutch Right to Die Society, and of course, the main question they asked me, what is your opinion on end of life and euthanasia, because they were, at that moment, advocating. It's a large advocacy group for euthanasia in the Netherlands, and I could say, I'm in favor of it. I did practice the issue, and I thought it, indeed, should be legalized because I practiced when it was not legal, and I knew what difficult situation that was, doing something, which is very emotional but being allowed to officially talk about it. So that was is where I applicated for a job of the Dutch Right to Die Society, and from that moment I was indeed more than 100% into end of life, euthanasia, medical aid to dying, and all of the developments. Dr. Bob: And, you were there, you mentioned, that euthanasia has been legal since 2002. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Since 2002, yes. Dr. Bob: This was all happening right at the beginning of your tenure there. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Well, fantastic. Can you describe for people who are listening what the different terms refer to? Dr. Rob Jonquière: The official translation of euthanasia is a good death, but in the Netherlands, we have since the middle '80s, the commission has looked into, and we have, in the Netherlands, defined euthanasia as the intentional termination of life on request of the person who is going to die. So it means that you do something, and the only aim of your action is that the patient is going die, and you only do that if the patient asks for it. So, if there is no request, you cannot practice euthanasia. You cannot practice euthanasia by giving medication, which, as a side effect, will terminate life of someone. Next, to euthanasia, which is an action by giving an injection, we have what we call assisted suicide. I know there is a lot of problems with the term suicide in the world, but we call it assisted suicide. There, as a doctor, you prescribe the medication, which causes death of the patient, but the patient takes the medication him or herself and legally- Dr. Bob: And, is that happening? Is that happening in the Netherlands as well, or has that pretty much gone by the wayside because of euthanasia being legal? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, the funny thing is that I've been speaking with my doctors of course, after the legalization, and all those doctors I spoke to said, well, I always want the patient to take the medication himself, so practice physician assisted suicide, still if we look at the figures in the Netherlands, we are lucky in the Netherlands that there is a very quality research and surveys going on what is happening, and there you see that between 85% and 90% or even more of the actions at the end of life is euthanasia, and only 5% is assisted suicide. So, officially, euthanasia is the main, so that's the reason why when we discuss the issue, we always talk only about euthanasia, but assisted suicide is the same, and you see that now some of the patients rather want to do it themselves. Some of the doctors, indeed, say if you want to die, you have to do something about it yourself, and I'm only prepared to give you the medication as you do in California. Dr. Bob: Okay. Is the medication being administered in the euthanasia cases, is that regulated? Is there a specific medication that everyone has access to? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, yes, it is officially one of an anesthesiologist, Pieter Admiraal, who you could call the inventor of the euthanasia medication, which is actually you bring the patient in a real deep coma, mostly by injecting barbiturates, an overdose of barbiturates, and after you have checked that patient really is in coma, and doesn't feel anything at all, you give again an overdose of a muscle relaxant, the medication anesthesiologist use when the patient is operated on. Dr. Bob: Okay. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, and that is now more or less a kind of protocol, and even if you look at our laws at this moment, it says, if you do it, you have to do it the proper way, which is you have to do it according to the medical standard, which is using that protocol, and the assisted suicide is just barbiturate, nine grams or 10 grams or so in a cloud of water. Dr. Bob: That's the same medication being used here, for the most part, the Seconal. Are there specific physicians who are trained in this, or what's that process like? How does a physician get certified or be allowed to do this? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, in the Netherlands and the Dutch law doesn't say that it has to be a certification. You have to be a doctor. That's the only thing you have to be. You have to follow the criteria of the law. The only certificate doctors are a group of second opinion doctors. Their obligation is, one of the criteria is that you have to consult a second independent doctor about case before you can perform the euthanasia, and these doctors are trained. Yes, of course, about the practicalities, about legal issues, but mainly about what kind of problems there are, and how to give a consultation to a colleague, if they are asked for it, but every doctor can actually practice euthanasia. Dr. Bob: Okay, like in California with the aid in dying, and the end of life option, it just requires a medical license, and the hope then is the physicians who are participating are becoming familiar, are becoming experts on their own. That's what we would hope. Dr. Rob Jonquière: I think that's what's happening. I mean, if you see in the Netherlands, we have of course what is it, 13, 14,000 family doctors, 85% of euthanasia is performed by family doctors, and you see of those family doctors, some 30%, 40% do it more regularly, which is still not more than two or three times a year in the average. So, they get used to how to do it, and there are manuals. We have papers or documents they can consult, and of course, that is where the second independent doctor can help. That doctor is trained. When that doctor comes, they can say, well, everything is okay, but, these and these things are not yet okay, and then the doctor can change that. We see more or less now, that sometimes, especially younger doctors don't go alone if they have to do it, but take an older colleague with them, so train themselves. Dr. Bob: Sure, we have mentors to help guide them. Is there opposition? Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, of course, that is also important of having a law. They are legally allowed to discuss their case. They can openly talk about, instead of having the fear that someone is listening and saying, hey, you have done something illegal and go to the police. Dr. Bob: Is there opposition in the Netherlands that is of significance? DrRob Jonquiere: There is. I don't think it is of significance. The main opposition is from the Orthodox-Protestant churches, and of course, we have the official opposition from the Catholic Church, the higher institutions. We see lower ... What do you call it? Clergy. Dr. Bob: Clergy, mm-hmm (affirmative). Dr. Rob Jonquière: Clergy working with family doctors, and then guiding their dying patients as well, but officially, the Church is against it, and practically we see 10% to 12% of doctors, mostly on religious situations, are not doing it principally, and then you have some 30%, 40% of doctors who are afraid, well, you know, don't know what to do, how to do, and don't want to go into that field. Dr. Bob: They just don't want to stretch themselves in that way. They don't feel comfortable for whatever reason. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Well, that's fascinating. I that there's a lot of people around the world, and a lot of people in the United States that are clearly in favor of laws that are more favorable towards helping people having a peaceful end of life, you know, I hear so often when I'm taking care of people who are struggling with end of life challenges that we take better care of our animals than we do of our people here in this country, and of course, they are referring to the ease of which we can have animals euthanized but not allowing humans to have their suffering end that way. Dr. Rob Jonquière: What I have heard from one of my opponents once, as well, that's why there is a difference between a dog and a man, a human. Dr. Bob: Easy to throw that out, but just sort of deflect the conversation. So I appreciate ... I know that a lot of people will be very interested in just hearing more of the specifics of what is happening in the Netherlands. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, you know, the funny thing is, Bob, if you look at the attitudes in the population, yes, of course, maybe in the Netherlands it is a little bit higher than in other countries, but what I see in my function as executive officer of the World Federation now is that in practically all countries, even in what is seen as Catholic countries, you see a population of over 60% to 70% who are in favor of it. So, it is not the population which is a problem, it is the politician, and the politicians who many times have, of course, have broader responsibilities. You see in some countries, and I think in the United States certainly, you see more influence from the churches on politicians because they are dependent on that kind of situations, and that is the situation we don't know in the Netherlands, and in some other countries in Europe as well. Dr. Bob: The ability to influence politicians that way? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: With financial incentives and other types of influence. That is a problem ... and I know it is not unique to the United States, but it is especially problematic those influences, and in many cases, it comes down to fear and greed and how do you feel that the pharmaceutical industry or the insurance industry, the financial industry, how do you feel that they factor into this conversation? Dr. Rob Jonquière: As far as I know in the Netherlands, it's practically has no influence at all. That's of course because our system is based that if, as a doctor, you prescribe your medication, and the medication is known and accepted, it's being paid out of the insurance money, so what I hear from the States, where you pay, what is it, $3.5 thousand for a shot of Seconal, I don't know what it costs here, but maybe not more than 80, 90, or 100 euro which is paid by the insurance. So, there is no reason for patients not to have euthanasia because it is too expensive. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and that's in the Netherlands. I'm kind of trying to get the sense of the impact in the countries that don't have, you know, a national health service that covers the cost of care, and I'm sure there is some- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Then, it's what you see in the States, where actually, again, it is something which can only be done by patients who have the money for the medication. Dr. Bob: Well, can you give a sense of where you think things are heading worldwide? What's your prediction? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, I see the last years, there are changes going on. You see gradual changes, if you look at the United States, of course, you see more and more states getting over to laws, and unfortunately, there are impediments of financial reasons, but we see a change happening. I don't hope, actually, your new president will change something in the federal situation, because your Supreme Court is now more conservative, so if it comes to federal Supreme Court things, then you'll have some problems, but I see changing in the States, of course, changing Canada has an important push into America, I think. I see changes in Australia since Victoria has now a bill which will be in effect in 2019, I think, in June, and think that Victoria having passed a bill will mean the other states will also pass bills. They have been trying to do that, so there you see a gradual change and the only thing is I have no idea about Africa, which is, of course, a large continent, except South Africa, but that is practically not what I would call an African continental nation, but there is no movement at all in those countries as far as I know. And, in South America, we see Columbia having a law, and I know that countries like Ecuador or Chile who have even, in these kinds of laws, are more progressive than the Netherlands sometimes. So, I could imagine that maybe if they want that they would be able to change laws in this direction sooner. Dr. Bob: Well, it does seem like we're in general moving in that direction- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, I think so. Dr. Bob: Many states have bills that are being discussed, and when you refer to Australia, I'm interested in that. I just read a book called Dying, which was a fascinating account of a woman dying of metastatic melanoma, who was living in Australia, and had actually obtained medication through an online source, but was very reluctant to utilize it or let anyone know she had it because without there being a law in Australia, anybody who had knowledge of this, or who supported her, would potentially be susceptible to being prosecuted for aiding in a suicide. The law in Victoria that you were referring to is that euthanasia or- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, it is euthanasia. Dr. Bob: It is euthanasia. Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, the law is called Medical Aid In Dying, so euthanasia is a possibility, so where doctors actively apply medication and also assisted or giving medication which they take themselves, so they really have a law in the direction of euthanasia. The only thing there is, and that is what you see, is that because they wanted to take the wind out of the sails of the opposition, they brought in a huge number of criteria and safeguards. So, even I have seen somewhere they said this law is the most safeguarded law in the world. You have to comply, what is it, about 68 or 72 safeguards, so it is very complicated, and fortunately, what I see for example is that more and more, just because they are in their fight against opponents, people say you must be ill. It must be a terminal illness. We see in the Netherlands, many people are maybe not terminal because we have what's terminal, I mean, everybody is going to die, so in a way, we are all terminal. So, terminal illness is involved. There's expectation that you have to die within a certain amount of months, so it takes away the whole idea that it is, and that's what I think is important. It has to go about the suffering of the patient. Dr. Bob: And, that's similar to our law here in California. There is that requirement that there is a six months prognosis, which is sometimes difficult to ascertain. Dr. Rob Jonquière: You know, probably like me that the worst issue for the doctor is to say how long you're going to live. Dr. Bob: We're not good at it. Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, you also know patients who you say, you won't live a month, and they're still alive after 10 years, and the other way around. Dr. Bob: So, in the Netherlands, with the euthanasia law, there is not a requirement for the person to have a terminal illness, is that correct? Dr. Rob Jonquière: No. The requirement is that you ask for it, and you have welcomed the request, and you have a well-considered request, and the request must be voluntary. You must be suffering, and the suffering must be unbearable and hopeless, and I always say that is a major issue in our law, the unbearability of suffering is only the patient can say, this is for me unbearable, and the hopelessness is reason for the doctor to say, I cannot make your suffering bearable, so in that way, it is hopeless. And, if you together say, you're suffering is unbearable and hopeless, then you have fulfilled the criteria in that field, and then you have your second independent doctor. You must have no real alternatives et cetera, et cetera. Dr. Bob: And, that really just gives the ... it gives the responsibility back to the patient. It allows them to determine what is bearable or unbearable for them. Dr. Rob Jonquière: For that issue, of course, in the Netherlands, our population, our members of the Right to Die Society are not very happy about the law, because as they say, it is a doctor's law. The law protects doctors against prosecution if they comply with the request for euthanasia, and the patients say, okay, I have to ask for it. That's my responsibility. Okay, I have to tell the doctor it is unbearable, but I'm dependent of a doctor who says, yes, I will do it. And, many people, and certainly, I think that is a kind of why you can't call it progress in our culture, say, if I say have ... my life finished. I'm suffering too much. I want to end my life. I have the right to have my life ended. There the problem always is that if you want to end your life well, and dignified, and humanely, you have the possibility of having the right medication, or pharmaceuticals, and the only way to have the right one is to go to your doctor and ask a prescription. Dr. Bob: So, it's still not perfect, at least according to the eyes of the people, but it's- Dr. Rob Jonquière: It's not perfect if you look at autonomy, things like that, and that is the kind of development I see at this moment in the Netherlands going on, where organizations are trying to find out, and maybe you know Phillip Nitschke from Australia. They're trying to find stuff, well you can't call it medication, but organics, or bills, or substances which can end your life in a humane, quick way, which you get outside the help of a doctor. You can do it yourself. I don't know whether that's good. That's my personal ... I hesitate. Dr. Bob: That opens an entirely different can of worms, and that could be another conversation. Do you have a sense of how many people in the Netherlands make a request, but are not found to qualify according to the physicians who are they are requesting it of? Dr. Rob Jonquière: It is more or less, already for years, we see that about 10 to 12,000 requests every year, a third of them are refused for all sorts of reasons because the request is not well-considered because doctor sees there is no real suffering, or there are alternatives. A third is honored the requests, so between three and four and it's getting a little bit more thousand cases every year died by euthanasia, and then the other third, there the patient dies sometimes before the actually the whole process is started, because the nature of thing is, which we didn't speak about, I think one of the things when I talked to my patients, and I told them, if they really thought their suffering was unbearable, and I could do something more, and they asked, then, in the end, I would really help them. Then I saw, that actually they lived much longer in a rather good quality of life, and died in a natural way, just because they knew they were going be helped if it got really bad. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I had that experience where just the knowledge that the patients have this option available improves their quality of life from the moment I had that first conversation. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, that maybe is a major positive effect of having a law. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's one of them, for sure. Do you know the statistics, I'm assuming that you do, but if you don't that's understandable, of what percentage of deaths that have occurred in the Netherland occur as a result of euthanasia? Dr. Rob Jonquière: The latest report ... you must know that every five years, we do a large survey asking doctors about their actions at the end of life, and we have such large and solid responses on it that you can extrapolate your whole population, so you see that the last time, it was a little more than 3%, and I think in the last year, when we had the report from the committees, it was practically 4% of all deaths cases in the Netherlands. Dr. Bob: Okay. Does that seem low to you? It seems a little low to me, for some reason. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. Well, it is low, as many people think. Sometimes, if you don't know the numbers, they give you the idea that in the Netherlands, when you walk in the street, and you look a bit ill, you are killed by euthanasia. That is not happening at all, and I would say it is only 4%. We see a gradual increase in the numbers and in the percentage. I think it is too early yet to see whether that is going be a steady phase, or whether we're still growing, growing further, but certainly, it is not as many, especially opponents suggested, as soon as you legalize, you open the door to thousands of- Dr. Bob: The floodgates come in, and people are knocking down the doors looking to be euthanized. Dr. Rob Jonquière: But, of course, I realized when I was working with the Dutch Society that since we are a rather small country, so our total death cases are about 140,000 every year if you talk about 4 percent, you talk about 6,000 euthanasia cases every year. If you live in a country like the States, where you have millions more, probably a higher death number, and then you talk about only 4%, you're talking about a large, larger numbers which are, if you look at what papers or communications say about it, it is, of course, more impressive than when we started to talk. We had 2,000 cases every year, which you can say, oh it's only 2,000. Dr. Bob: Well, this has been really educational, and I think fascinating, and I know many of the listeners will appreciate what you shared, now you're speaking around the world. You go to the Federation meetings, and is their information or issues that you feel would be important to bring out that I didn't have a chance to ask about? Is there anything that you think that you hear questions over and over again that you feel would be valuable? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Oh, I think what we addressed today is more or less what is generally felt. It's of course important that if you talk, if you're interested in the issue that you should orient yourself on the right arguments and don't listen too much to the opponents, because many times, I see opponents misusing ... for example, the numbers we produce in the Netherlands, just to give you a small example, we had in '85 or '90, the first large survey and it appeared at that moment that a thousand times every year, a doctor terminates the life of a patient without having a request from the patient. Of course, everybody said that is wrong. I mean, you only do it if there's a request. If you don't do it on request, you're actually committing a murder. We see that number getting down to the last time, I think it was about 100 cases every year, and even there, we know those 100 cases were no murders but were specific situations, for example, very small children who were suffering enormously where doctors terminated life or terminated suffering actually, and officially, performing euthanasia without request, because a small child cannot ask it, so it is a very small number, and even that small number can be explained from humane actions by doctors, and still our opponents tell that in the Netherlands, they kill a thousand patients without request, and that kind of messages, I see everywhere in the world getting around, and getting first at patients or people who are interested in the issue. So, one of the things I mostly do when I speak around the world is explaining our situation in the Netherlands, and say, it is different from what you hear from the papers because they use those wrong figures. Dr. Bob: Well, that's really helpful, and I think it is important to caution people to be careful about the information that you are letting and- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Especially nowadays, don't take in fake news. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And if people want to get more information or learn more about you and the Federation, the website is www.worldrtd.net. Right? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. That's right, and there you can get every information. You can get general information of what's happening around the world, and of course, you can find the addresses of the 52 national societies with emails and with website addresses, so from there on, you can click wherever you want to go.
The Teal Chair, a film that was nominated for the Future Filmmakers Award this year at Sun Valley Film Festival was the brainchild of Kimberly Ouwehand. Find out why the hospice community outreach coordinator wanted to create this film and how its impacted her life and others. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Treasure Valley Hospice website Transcript Dr. Bob: Kimberly Ouwehand is a passionate Community Outreach Coordinator for Treasure Valley Hospice in Nampa, Idaho. When Kimberly got the inspiration to videotape people answering the question, "If you knew you had a limited time to live, what would you do," amazing things started to happen. She collaborated with a local group of high school students, and what came out of it is an extraordinary documentary called The Teal Chair. The film was nominated for the Future Filmmakers Award at the 2018 Sun Valley Film Festival. In this podcast, Kimberly shares how the film came about and how its creation has impacted her life and the lives of many others in her community. I hope you enjoy it. Share with me, the listeners, a little bit about your journey, your working in hospice, and how long have you been part of hospice? How did you get into hospice, and kind of where are you in that, in the course of your career? Kimberly Ouwehand: Well, I started out in clinical. I worked in internal medicine for about 10 years, 10 to 12 years, and kind of fell into hospice, because, and it's kind of a different animal, because you're in people's homes, and you're dealing more with people than you are the clinical side of things, and so I've been doing hospice for about seven years now- Dr. Bob: Okay, and in what capacity? Kimberly Ouwehand: I love it. I do outreach, and communication, and education, so kind of I'm a marketer for it, but I do a lot of hands-on and outreach. Dr. Bob: Got it. Kimberly Ouwehand: A lot of education. Dr. Bob: I think probably a lot of people don't realize ... Well, a lot of people don't realize a lot of things about hospice, right, but- Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, that's for sure. Dr. Bob: When they hear "marketer," they probably don't understand how much that involves being with families, and patients, and kind of in the thick of things, because I know I've been associated with hospice for a while now, and sometimes the marketers develop such incredible relationships, because they're the first point of contact for a lot of these folks and people who are in pretty somewhat desperate situations or very vulnerable. It's a really important role to be playing, don't you think? Kimberly Ouwehand: I do. I wish sometimes we didn't ... I mean, I hate to use the word "marketer," because traditionally it's pushing sales and things like that. I find myself making connections and building, like you said, building relationships so that people know, like, and trust you, and they'll call you whenever there's question, and they don't understand something. I feel like my reputation should be built on trust, and I feel like I've done a pretty good job of that so far. Dr. Bob: Good. Well, you've expanded beyond just doing the hospice marketing to take on a whole 'nother realm and project, so The Teal Chair. Tell us how that came about. Kimberly Ouwehand: Well, actually, it started out with just a very simple question. I was getting frustrated that people were waiting way too long to use hospice services. I mean, hospices, it is medical, and palliative and comfort care all at home, but hospice traditionally, especially for the older generation, feels like you're signing off on a death wish. They were missing out on a lot of other services, and I loved that hospice was all about surrounding the family with the patient and making it ... Well, it is one of the most important things you do in your life is die well, but I was getting frustrated, because it's a hard subject to bring up, and people were afraid to talk about it, and doctors were putting it off way too long. I wondered if we'd made it more of just a simple question, "If you knew you had limited time, how does that change the way you live today?" That question seemed a little bit softer, so I thought to myself, I thought, "Well, I have this teal chair," and I was just going to plop it in the middle of some public area and pull people off the street and just ask them a question, record it. It was going to be kind of a short YouTube video, but what happened was, I realized I had no video skills whatsoever, and my son had taken a video class at the high school, and I just liked the rawness of it. I didn't want it to be a production. I wanted it to be real. I didn't want it to be ... I just wanted it to be honest, and so I went and asked the teacher over at Eagle High School if he had a couple students who would do a YouTube video. He said, yeah, he had a couple students, and so he kind of ... I found out later he kind of coerced them a little bit to do this death video. Dr. Bob: They were resistant. You think- Kimberly Ouwehand: That's kind of- Dr. Bob: ... that there was resistance- Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah. Dr. Bob: ... initially? Kimberly Ouwehand: There was a little ... Yeah, but he got five incredible students to ... Sorry. Incredible students to take part in it. The outcome was phenomenal. It took legs very quickly. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I can imagine if you get the support and you get sort of the passion of youth, and it's a creative process that the school could support. It's one of those things that if someone takes that initiative and puts the pieces in place, people want to talk. Right? They want to talk about these issues, and they just need to, it just needs to be presented to them in a, I guess in a safe way, maybe an inspired way that you're going to do good for other people. That's what I've found. When was the, like how long did it take to produce, and what's the status of the film, and I have a lot of questions, but- Kimberly Ouwehand: I know. It is an amazing story. We started out at a venue called JUMP downtown. It was a great collaboration. They were doing a Day of the Dead event, and I thought it was colorful and fun, and festive. The more I learned about the Day of the Dead, the more I appreciate it, and so I thought it would be visually stimulating for the students, so we went down there, and it just grew into one team did events, did the filming of the event on the outside, people looking at the altars. There was, a Before I Die Wall was set up there. I don't know if you know about that, but it's an amazing exhibit. Then the other half went up into the studio, and they were so excited because it was a professional studio. They had the green, and all the lighting and everything, and we were able to take 22 people off out of the event and bring them into the studio and ask them this question. "If you knew you had limited time, how does that change the way you live?" We interviewed people from eight years old up to I think the oldest we've interviewed that day was about 89. It was just, it was interesting. It wasn't scary. It was thought-provoking, and one thing led to another, and I said, "Well, why don't you submit it into the Sun Valley Film Festival for Future Filmmakers?" We made it instead of just a YouTube, to a 10-minute one that would fit the criteria, and submitted it, and out of about 120 across the nation, we were nominated. There were, I think, 12 nominations. We went to the Sun Valley Film Festival, and then since then, we're, it's going, we've sent it to Washington, D.C., to the National Hospice and Palliative Association, and I'll be submitting it into the American Public Health Association- Dr. Bob: Awesome. Kimberly Ouwehand: ... for educational pieces, because what happened is, it just started this huge conversation, and it's not only about dying, but it's about the different seasons you are in your life and what that looks like and having those conversations, because you never know if you're going to die suddenly or if you're going to have a chronic illness that will take a long time. Dr. Bob: One of the things that came to you when you were just posing the question to people, "What would you do differently, or how would you live, if you knew you had a limited time," did people ask you like, "What do you mean by a limited time? Like are you talking about days or months?" Did that seem to be an issue, or did they all sort of feel like they could take that and speak to it without getting more clarity? Kimberly Ouwehand: That's a really ... I mean, nobody's asked me that question, but some people did, like about how much time, but most people didn't ask. They just thought, "Okay. Where am I right now, and what's important to me?" Like the eight-year-old said he wanted to have a pizza party, and you just realize that the shorter, the younger you are in your life, your life doesn't expand very much, and then the teenagers, the college, they wanted to experience life as much as they could. They wanted to get out and just learn as much about the world and everything around them, and then it seems like, and I'm kind of stereotyping it a little bit, but the career, your middle-aged people would be more focused on balance of life, realizing really what is important, not working so much. The family becomes important... Working so much, the family becomes important. And then older people got it was usually something to do with a memory, revisiting a place or a person, or for sure it was all about family. Dr. Bob: I imagine some of them would want to have a pizza party. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, I mean, and the conversations that's come out of it. When I set it up, I set up interviews, and we interviewed doctors, and we interviewed a couple of professional people. And we interviewed a hospice patient and a family who had hospice. When we were doing the interviews, I would think to myself; these kids are going to think it's stupid, it was a waste of time, they're not going to pull anything off of this interview. But what they did, and pulled, and put together, I was amazed. I thought he knows it's boring; they're not going to think it's exciting, they're kids, you know. But they pulled stuff off that I would never have thought of. Some of the pieces that I thought were really long, I had people come up and say that really spoke to them. So you really can't make it into one topic, it's a super broad topic that hits people in all different areas. Dr. Bob: Yeah, it's so personal. That's part of the idea of how do we spend our time, what's important to us, what do we value most? That's what we're getting at, and everyone has such a unique experience. So, I don't want to put you on the spot Kimberly, but what would you want to do if you knew that you only had a limited time? Kimberly Ouwehand: You know what, that's- Dr. Bob: Did you answer it? Were you interviewed? Kimberly Ouwehand: No, I was not interviewed. And I don't know if I really know what I would do because I feel like my life is centered around that already, that everything I do today, it matters. So I hope that when I do die, if I die suddenly, that people will look at my life as I've lived it, and the things that I've done, that I was nice, and that I was kind, and that I was just a good person, I think. But I don't have any bucket list things. I wouldn't do anything differently, really. Dr. Bob: I agree with you. I'm in that same place, and it really feels good to feel like I don't really need anything else. I probably would want to just be with my family, and have friends. I think about it, you being in the hospice world and me being, caring for people at the late stage of life and many of them in their final days and weeks of life, I think about it often. Like, where am I? Am I complete? Am I good? It's a really gratifying feeling to feel like I'm good to go. I would hate not seeing my son grow up and all these things. But I don't feel like there's anything undone or unsaid at this moment. It feels powerful to me. It sounds like you're sort of in that same place. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, and I agree with you too, in the film, I asked one of the interviewers, what would he do? It was interesting because really, and I can see this with a lot of parents that they would hope that they had left enough of them with their children, that their children wouldn't forget him, and his values and what he was like. I think for parents, and I'm a parent too, but my kids are getting older now and more independent, I feel I've done a pretty good job. But I just would want everybody to know that I did love them. The parent thing is a little hard because you're leaving something that you can't follow up with, I guess. Dr. Bob: Kind of unfinished. You feel like you're not, you feel like there are a little bit more unfinished business and a gap that be left more ... I agree with you more so than if the kids were already adults and launched. Was there anything you can think of that was really surprising, that people said, that you, "Wow, that was really interesting," or crazy... Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, there was a lot of things that people that I took away from there, just with a little bit of different perspective. One person said, and I thought this was really interesting, and I think I live my life a little bit differently because of it, was, "If you give up one thing if you focus on one thing, sometimes you have to unfocus on another thing." In other words, you can't have it all. You can't focus on everything because then it doesn't, you don't hit the bullseye, basically. I thought that was interesting because I think sometimes we try to do too much, and we forget that you can't. And it's okay not to do everything. And we can't do everything well. And that's why we have people in our lives. That's why we have people like you doing podcasts that are reaching out to a whole different demographic that I can't reach, and I'm doing my thing that you can't reach. I think that put a new perspective on a stressful job, to be honest with you. Dr. Bob: I'm sure that the gift of being involved in that, I'm sure there were many gifts, but one of them was this new perspective and the wisdom that came out of people speaking from their heart, from this place of a different awareness than they would otherwise have. I wonder if, how many of the people that were interviewed, who were able to share what they would do if they had limited time, started doing more of those things. If the impact is not just on the people who watch the film, but the impact on the individuals who got to reflect on that. Kimberly Ouwehand: I feel like the interviewers that I knew, all said that they had conversations later, because their families ask, "What are you doing?" I don't know about the other interviews, that we did at the jump event, the Day of the Dead event because I kept that anonymous, so I didn't want to put names or tag any links on that. So most of them, I never really heard back from. Dr. Bob: It'd be interesting if there was a way to come back and interview those people again. Kimberly Ouwehand: That would be, I know. Dr. Bob: I think we talked a little bit earlier. I think it's so important to get the conversation about life and death, and preparing, and living intentionally, to the younger demographic, into college age kids, and high school age kids, and even elementary school kids. I just feel like we have become such a death-phobic culture and we don't allow ourselves to promote these conversations. I think it just continues to, this fear continues to escalate as we get older, and no one's having the conversations. Do you feel like the film, I haven't seen it, I'm looking forward to seeing it, do you feel like it's something that could be used in schools to help open up the topic and stimulate conversation and sort of a structured format? Kimberly Ouwehand: I really do. At this point, because it really only got finished, there's a 30-minute documentary, and that really didn't get finished until May. So we'll be doing more screenings, but we're talking with BSU, Boise State University to implement that as part of their curriculum in their nursing program. And then also, with the Boise State Center of Aging and their social workers, we will probably be doing a couple of presentations with that. The biggest resistance that I found interestingly enough is with the medical professionals, the ones that are already doctors and physicians. And that one, I've been very surprised at how resistant they have been in having it be presented as a topic. Dr. Bob: And why do you think that is? Kimberly O.: I think number one, they are busy, and they don't necessarily have the time, or maybe even the energy. I think a lot of times, after you get through medical school, you feel like you're an expert in whatever you're doing so you don't think anything outside of that, except for your bubble, I think. I don't know; I'm not a doctor. Dr. Bob: Yeah, no, well I am, and I think those are accurate. But you said there's resistance to actually them coming out and viewing the film, or somehow allowing it to be shown in different venues? I'm curious, it would seem to me that this is the kind of thing that anybody would benefit from seeing, and watching, and taking the teachings. I apologize on behalf of the medical specialty. Kimberly Ouwehand: Oh no, and I don't mean... Dr. Bob: I do. I find myself doing that. I find myself doing that all the time. I hear people talking about all the challenges they have with the medical- Dr. Bob: On all the challenges they have with the medical system and with physicians in particular, and I mean, I'm diverging a little bit, but I do see all the challenges, and I see physicians being stretched and very narrowly focused, and people suffer because of it. Both from when the medical care, as well as the physicians aren't open in many cases to thinking outside the box and supporting something like this project. Anyway, I do find myself apologizing on behalf of physicians [inaudible 00:22:39] to patients. Kimberly O.: I sound like I'm bashing doctors and physicians, but I really am not. I mean, again, it goes back to the focus physicians who are specialties. They need to focus on that. They can't be looking at every other angle, because they'll lose their focus. They'll lose their specialty. I think too; they are asked to do a lot. They're busier now than ever; the paperwork is crazy. Covering your bases all the time. Healthcare, in general, is just getting more complicated. I don't necessarily feel that they're being resistant, but I do feel that they can only handle what they can handle, and one more thing, even if it is outside of the box a little bit, might be just a little bit ... Until they understand it, I just think it might be harder for them to grasp. Dr. Bob: Right. I think you're being gracious, and that's nice, because these are the kinds of things that, yes, it's important to focus on your area of expertise and your practice and to try to maintain balance in your life, but this is the kind of thing that helps to further our humanity, right? Kimberly Ouwehand: It does. Dr. Bob: I mean, this is the stuff, every physician needs to work on their humanity, on their compassion, and on their empathy. It doesn't matter what you do, what specialty you're in, this kind of project is something that everybody should be at least open to bringing in and supporting. That's my thought. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, I appreciate that. I think too; I think sometimes physicians need to stop and think about their own mortality. I think they forget that they are ... They're going to die someday too, and it might help them center what's important to them a little bit too. I would hope, I hope it's one of those films that people take and just apply it to where they need to apply it, you know? Dr. Bob: Yeah. Kimberly Ouwehand: I think too, you mentioned earlier about the younger generation, the high school students, and the college students, and when we had started filming, we started filming the first week of November, and later that month, one of their classmates died in a tragic car accident. At the end of the school year this year, one of the students at the high school committed suicide. Death is around them. It's interesting how they handle it, though. I don't know how they handle it, quite frankly. I don't know if adults put what we know onto kids or if kids just know how to ... It was interesting, 'cause there was hardly any talk about it at school. Dr. Bob: It's hard to imagine that that's healthy. You would think at least you want to have an opening for the kids who feel like they do need to talk or to ask questions or to come together. You'd like to think that they would put that in place to give an opening for those who may be struggling with it more. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, I agree. I think they made it ... I mean, I think the students know they have a counselor that they can go to. I think some of the friends, the girl that died in the car accident, they had a vigil, but it was done just through her girlfriends. It wasn't really ... They didn't talk about it at a school level, and I just thought that was interesting. Especially when it comes to the suicide. There have been several suicides in high schools here, and they don't talk about it. I don't know if that's for the family's sake, or how they handle that in the schools. They don't really tell us, so it's interesting. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's scary. It's also I think more than people realize, there's also a lot of suicides in medical school, and physicians. It's increasing in numbers. Kimberly Ouwehand: I think that's true, and there is a lot of emphasis on physicians and mental health care, taking care of their mental health. I think you're absolutely correct. Dr. Bob: I want to take it back to the film, and how do I get my hands on not a copy probably, but the ability to get it and show it and potentially have an event around it, or do a showing? Kimberly Ouwehand: At this point, the 30-minute documentary, we're editing it just a tiny bit, and it will be available by link. The 10-minute one that went to the Sun Valley Film Festival will be on our website, at TreasureValleyHospice.com. It's not up yet, but we're working on that. I'm happy to send you a link so you can see it- Dr. Bob: Awesome that'd be wonderful. Kimberly Ouwehand: ... before then. Dr. Bob: Well good. I'm excited, and this is the kind of thing we need to do more of this, and it's cool, 'cause this is taking a softer approach, right? It's not a death café; it's not in your face. It's taking the backdoor approach to are you really living your life intentionally? And doing the things that truly matter, and not ... Go ahead. Kimberly Ouwehand: I'm sorry. I keep interrupting. Dr. Bob: No, that's okay. This is your interview; we're here to hear you. Kimberly Ouwehand: I think the film really almost mirrors a little bit what hospice is because hospice is taking what's really important to you in your life, and everything that surrounds your life at that moment in time. I feel like it's a very softer approach to really what hospice does and is. I hope that's what the message is, in the end. Dr. Bob: Yeah, that's nice. You're right. Many people don't get that. Society, until you've had a personal experience with a really good hospice team, the perception out there still for many people is hospice is basically just where you go to die, and we know that that is ... There are times when that's true when somebody's dying, and they're in their last stages, and hospice comes in and helps facilitate it and make it more comfortable. But there are so many people who spend months on hospice, and they live so much more richly, and so much more peacefully, because of that support. It really is about living well until you die, as opposed to just dying, and I- Kimberly Ouwehand: And the family, too. Dr. Bob: Yeah, that family support. I can see the film helping to further that concept and that philosophy. I'm looking forward to it, to seeing it and sharing it, and who knows what other projects you'll be getting to next. I did an interview not long ago with Michael Rossato-Bennett, who directed the film "Alive Inside." Have you seen that? Kimberly Ouwehand: No, but I'd love to- Dr. Bob: Wonderful film. It's about music and bringing music to people with dementia, and people who are isolated. It started out as just a little project that someone asked him to come and do some filming, and out of that, he has now created a foundation, and there are iPods and headphones being given out to people all throughout the country, and it's launched into something beyond what anyone could ever have imagined. Who knows? Something like that could be happening with you as well. You never know. Kimberly Ouwehand: I hope so. You never know. Thank you so much, Dr. Bob.
Hear beautiful stories about end of life. Dr. Bob and Veterinarian, Liz Fernandez, discuss how there are similarities in their end-of-life work that helps people, pets, and families who are dealing with end-of-life issues. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Liz Fernandez website Dr. Bob: Liz Fernandez is a doctor who makes house calls. She gets to know her patients and families intimately, and she frequently provides counsel and guidance as her patients head toward the natural end of their lives. In many circumstances, she lovingly administers medication through an IV that allows her patients to fall asleep and die peacefully usually in the arms of their loved ones. What Dr. Fernandez does is legal and acceptable because she's a doctor of veterinarian medicine and her patients are mostly dogs and cats. Although I don't perform euthanasia which is illegal in this country, I am with many patients as they die peacefully after self-ingesting medication that allows them to have a quick and peaceful death. In many respects, Dr. Fernandez's practice is very similar to mine. We both drive all over the place to make house calls, we both develop very intimate relationships with our patients and families, and we both help to guide and counsel as our patients approach the natural end of their lives. In this episode, we share some of the beautiful and some of the challenging experiences that we've had, and we discuss how it affects us to be in these emotionally complex circumstances so often. I hope you find it interesting, informative, and meaningful in some way. Liz, thanks for coming on the show, and I'm looking forward to having you share some of your insights from your really fascinating career. Can you just share with me a little bit what is it like? You have a unique model of practice for a vet, and what's a typical day or typical few days for you? Liz Fernandez: I practice in Ventura County. I work with small animals, and I do house calls, and most of what I do is Chinese medicine acupuncture, so most of my clients, my patients are older. I may see anywhere between three to six patients a day, and I drive all over the county. Sometimes I keep it localized in a smaller area, but my radius is about 60 miles from my house so it could be anywhere in that to give you an idea. Yes, I drive about 30,000 miles a year- Dr. Bob: Which is kind of similar to me. It sounds like your work is in many ways similar to mine; going out and meeting with older patients and addressing the concerns that they and their families have and supporting them. Liz Fernandez: Right, and so I have ... Since I see them ... I see them. I'll spend an hour or so. Each appointment is about an hour unless it's an initial appointment and it's usually about two hours. I may be seeing them once a week, or once every other week, or once a month, so I get to know the clients quite well and as their animals, either dogs or cats, for the most part, start to age and get near to that point when they're going to have to make some decision, we've already had probably at least a few discussions if not more; just some in general and some more specific. It's nice because I do have that connection already with most of the clients that I work with, and that makes it a lot easier to move into that idea of now we may not be trying to get them better, we're just trying to keep them comfortable. Dr. Bob: Got it. So you have the conversations ideally upstream about what will happen when things change, and you're looking now at a comfort-focused end of life scenario. It's interesting because you have an option to help create a very peaceful end of life for your patients that we don't necessarily have. Not necessarily have, we don't have. We don't have euthanasia. It's not legal; it's not available. Fortunately in California now we do have the medical aid in dying through the end of life option app, so there is another conversation that can happen when people are open to it, but everybody is aware that euthanasia is a viable and acceptable option at the end of an animal's life. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, and I find it fascinating because with the animals, we almost more often than not, people demand it for a multitude of reasons; the most common being, "I don't want my pet to suffer." That I totally understand and I agree with, and I support them in those decisions. It's just fascinating that ... And part of it I guess is with people we have more options in terms of supportive care to keep people comfortable and just have somebody there 24/7. That's pretty very challenging for most people. I have had clients that have the ability to have somebody with their pet 24/7 offer doing whatever it is that they need to have done in a home situation. It's not like they're putting him in the hospital or something and not being with them, it's just that they can manage all of those little things like if they can't get up from by themselves that somebody can take them and help them to get up and go outside and if they're not continent then they can take care of that in terms of changing the bedding and that sort of thing in helping them. But that's not the norm. For most people, it's just not an option. What do you do if you can't be there or if don't know someone who can be there or afford to pay someone to be there, what do you do? This other option is available especially when there's no hope of improvement. And so that's what happens. Dr. Bob: It's interesting to think about those scenarios because it's just natural to make the comparisons, right? This is between people and animals, and if you have a person who needs care to manage their ADLs because they can't get up by themselves, they can't clean themselves. That's not enough to justify having their life end. For some people, it may be that the complexities of creating care- Liz Fernandez: The other part of that is that a lot of times, it's emotional least distressful for the clients because they realize their own limitations whether that be physical, emotional, financial. All of those things factor in, and so they wind up making a decision because not that they think it's what is necessary that the animal is that near to death that that's what is appropriate, but because the entire situation is such that they can't handle it. If you have an 85-year-old woman who's got 100-pound dog and she doesn't have anybody else to help or take care of it, she may be healthy within herself, but to be able to meet all the needs of a big dog- Dr. Bob: That's dangerous. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, it's dangerous. Or even somebody who's 50, but they have a bad back. Dr. Bob: That part like knowing that the dog is not or the animal is not necessarily imminent, that close to death, or maybe it's not even suffering that much, right? It may not be in pain, it may just have these limitations, and if the family was able to meet those needs even though the dog is not living its ideal life like a human being who's 90- Liz Fernandez: Right. A lot of people feel like if they can't get up if they can't do those things, that they are suffering, that it is not a life that they would want, so there is that. I would say that with most of my clients they do a really good job of trying to make things work, but on the other hand, most of them have co-morbidities that are ... Like if their back legs aren't working anymore, there's a good chance that they probably have some other issues going on whether that be kidney disease or sometimes some underlying, whether it's cancer or heart disease or other things that make it even more challenging. I honestly can say that I don't find myself in situations where I feel that it's inappropriate. Dr. Bob: Well, imagine if you did then you would find other solution. Liz Fernandez: Exactly. I mean, we each have to do what we feel in our heart is right or for us, but I also try and tell people that there's not necessarily an objective right or wrong. There's a right or wrong for you in this moment, but not necessarily a right or wrong that is somewhere posted in a book somewhere that says that this is the way you have to proceed. Because we have to be honest and compassionate with ourselves as well as in the whole situation. Dr. Bob: Well, I read your book Sacred Gifts of a Short Life: Uncovering the Wisdom of Our Pets End of Life Journeys, and it's really touching, it's really well done and smart. Liz Fernandez: Thank you. Dr. Bob: It was great stories and as I'm reading it, I so often I'm finding corollaries to my life and my practice and my thought processes. One of the things that was really poignant for me is your ... One of the stories, I think it comes up a number of times when people ask how they'll know when it's the right time. For me being a physician who assists some patients through medical aid in dying, there are times when people get a prescription for a life-ending medication, and one of the big questions that they have and that their families have is when will I know it's time? When will I know that it's the time to take this? What their experience or if they're struggling to go through is what your families are dealing with. The difference, I guess the difference in my situation with human beings is that they're the ones making these decisions for themselves, no one can make it for them. And they recognize that when they do take this medication, they may be robbing themselves or ... They're clearly shortening their life, but they may be robbing themselves of some relatively reasonable time, and they don't know. There's no way to absolutely predict what the future is going to hold and sometimes they'll be inclined to take the medication sooner because they're afraid that things will change and they'll lose their ability. They'll lose their mental ability, the physical ability, so there's this back and forth dialogue they have with themselves and questioning. Almost every single time, I've told them, "You'll know when it's time. No one's going to tell you it's time. You're going to know, and when you know it, you know it. There's been a couple of people out of the many dozen who I have been with who have still been slightly, slightly, hesitant, reluctant questioning it and even to the last hours. What I recognize is those people are the ones who have younger children. No matter what they do, separating any moment sooner than they absolutely have to is a challenge. Those are the ones that tend to be a struggle. But like you said, they know when it's time, sounds like your families come to a place where they just know now is the time. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, and I have definitely tried to work with people and something that I do talk about in the book as far as just ... Because even in our profession we have a tendency to, and as a profession, this is so, and I have tried to steer away from this, but we're the ones that like to tell people when it's time, and people like us to tell them oftentimes. What I have found throughout my career is that if there is not complete 100% choice that's made by the person who's involved with the pet, then they sometimes feel guilty, feel pushed, feel resentful that someone else told them that they needed to do something when they weren't ready. I try to avoid that and make sure that they are comfortable and that they are listening to that place within themselves that we each have that I think it's so important not just to listen in this situation but throughout our lives, that we start listening to that, that we begin to trust it, and then we can act on it. This is a situation that really invites us to do this in a wholehearted way, and if we have practice doing that throughout our lives, it becomes much easier. What I ask people to do is to try and get very quiet and feel into their body and have someone else perhaps even present with them and feel into their body with the idea that, "I'm going to euthanize my pet today," and then just feel what happens to them. The person who's with them can watch whether there's a tenseness that happens, whether there's a clenching or a contraction, or if there's a relaxation and opening up because the body is reacting to the deepest truth. I think that can be very helpful. I had had a couple of situations where I've been with somebody as we move through that process and I've reflected to them what I have seen, and in one situation I said when you get your poll body relaxed when you thought about just going ahead and letting Sophie go today. Then we talked a little bit longer because it didn't seem like she was ready to go ahead with that. But what I told her and what we talked about was that it really was okay that she felt that way. That it was getting really challenging and very difficult to take care of her. When she actually accepted the idea, so her body was just asking, inviting her to become okay with that as a possibility, and recognizing it and forgiving herself for having that feeling, for feeling like I can't do this another day. And yet there were some things that we could try, and we wound up trying them. And then would about two weeks later, things have deteriorated further, and she was very clear, and she had no question. But what her body actually was doing when she relaxed was not saying that it needed to happen today as much as it was saying that she needed to accept that as a possibility and that it was okay that she felt the way she did. Once she became okay with this feeling that, "I can't do it anymore," she actually found the strength to be able to go on a little longer. But he had to accept that within himself first. Very interesting. And the opposite happened. Both of these situations happened within probably two or three months of each other, and the other situation was that the lady just did not want to euthanize her pet. And she knew. I mean, there were all sorts of signs from the universe, and from her husband, and her husband had a dream, and all of these different things and she just knew, and he was really not doing well, but she just couldn't let go. I said to her because again when we went through the process, not doing it is what gave her the most relaxation in her body. And I said, okay. Consciously and in her brain, I said, "Be okay with that. It's okay that you can't do it today. Because sooner or later if you don't do it for him, he's going to do it himself." And he's not really suffering; he was just in a point of not really eating anymore, but just not moving. You know what I mean? He wasn't in any kind of excruciating pain that we needed to address or anything. And once she could finally just say to herself that it was okay, she could forgive yourself for not being able to do what she really felt was the best interest of her pet. Because she just loved him so much and just, it's like ... When she completely surrendered to that, she sat with him for a few minutes and then she said, "Let's go ahead." Dr. Bob: It's beautiful. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, it's quite fascinating, but again if you start to listen deeply and can accept whatever happens or whatever wants to happen and trust it, then I think that we do have the answers within ourselves to make these difficult decisions. Dr. Bob: Actually I appreciate that you shared that. Because on a couple of levels, I think what you're sharing is so vitally important. On the one hand, I think that's what we need. Everybody needs ... Moving to the human realm, we all need to be able to go deep inside and become comfortable with the idea that one day we're going to die. Liz Fernandez: Yes, just have a good relationship with death. Dr. Bob: Yes. And not to say, "Okay, I'm ready to die." Not to say that I've got everything prepared or that emotionally, financially, legally, or whatever. But to just understand and feel this sense of acceptance and a sense of calm about it, and if you can't get there, then the work needs to revolve around figuring out why what is it that's keeping you from feeling that sense of acceptance or calm about it. But once you can get there, then everything is a bit easier, I think it's brighter, a little bit more ... It's almost like it's bonus time. Now I've accepted this; there's my ultimate endpoint, now let's get on with life. Liz Fernandez: Right. Part of why I wrote the book was not only just for clients, but for practitioners and then just the general public. Because the whole idea is what my book tries to talk about and what I'm passionate about is just that. It's the idea of having a relationship with death that makes it less scary. Be able to embrace it, to dance with it, to recognize it everywhere. Things are dying all the time. We push it away so much we deny even the idea. No one wants to say the word. It becomes this big scary boogeyman and the big monster under the bed. Dr. Bob: It does not have to be that way. Liz Fernandez: That's a cultural thing. It's like can we just start just have a keep the conversation going. Dr. Bob: And I think we are. I mean, that's part of what we're doing, right? That's why we have this ... That's why I have a life and death conversation. There are people like us who are not only comfortable talking about it but shine when we're talking about it. Because it's like being part of a club where you understand where this is coming from, where this conversation comes from. Not because we're morbid or want to talk about dying or don't love life, it's because we do love life. And we love life enough to say, "And one day this is going to end." And that's going to be okay too because that's We can maybe by doing this, by having these conversations and people listen to it and they think, "Wow, that's an interesting way of looking at it." Liz Fernandez: Broadening the perspectives because there is a sacredness to it. There is this deep sense of ... I mean, it pulls us into silence. I had the opportunity a couple of weeks ago to speak to a group of high school students who are interested in veterinarian medicine, and this is the topic we talked about. We talked about ... I just described the state that one gets into when one watches a sunset, and you're just completely present. That's kind of what meditation is, but it's also what happens when we are communing with death if you will. I mean, if we're present with someone who's dying, and that silence, it's just so full. There's so much life and love there. Dr. Bob: And sadness, right? There's loss, there's all of it, but it's the whole continuum. Liz Fernandez: It's all of it, exactly. And that's the other thing that I try and really focus on. It's the idea that it's not either or. You don't have to deny anything. You don't have to deny that you feel devastated or just horrible for whatever the experience is, and at the same time at some point, everyone who's ever gone through a grieving process knows that there is this ... All of a sudden flash will get in your head, and you'll start smiling and laughing when you're thinking of this person who you miss so dearly. You're feeling it all. That's what I mean I think it's important. That we allow ourselves to feel all of that. It's like clouds. They come, and they go, and your feelings and your emotions are going to be all over the map as part of the grieving process. One of the [inaudible 00:26:09], a friend of mine recently who passed away. She was very aware, and she lived so fully. I have another client whose dog is ... They called me a month ago thinking it was time and it's not yet, and they're just kind of writing with it. The idea to be able to live fully knowing very clearly because you have a terminal diagnosis, that your time is very limited, is ... I've seen only either in animals because they don't get all hung up, but in people, those that have really, really accepted the idea, they're older, and they can live like you said, very fully because of that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. For me that's a big part of my mission, and it sounds like of yours, is to create this comfort to allow the loved ones who are part of this experience to have it be as peaceful and potentially transformative as possible, so they can go on the rest of their lives feeling a sense of peace about it, feeling a sense that they did everything right, that they did the best possible in support of their loved one. Yes, it's important to make it comfortable for the person who's dying and to reduce the fear and to reduce the struggle, but so much the loved ones go on for years or decades having to carry that experience with them. It's a beautiful experience if it has been well explained and accepted, and the processing has been allowed to happen, it can be amazing what it opens up for them or allows them to experience. Which is why it's so it's so unfortunate and challenging one when people die suddenly. Or animals when death happens suddenly, and people haven't been able to prepare. You know what my solution for that is? Always be prepared. I think about that. I was in [inaudible 00:28:38] for 20 plus years. From early on in my career and in my adulthood, it became very clear to me how quickly things could change, how random things were, and so I guess I got comfortable with this idea that I could be just removed from life instantly or traumatized. I made a very conscious decision to tell people what I wanted them to know. To not leave things hanging. I'm almost to the point where my kids when I would leave the house they, "I know dad, I know you love me. I know. Okay." We have to hug again, and ... Liz Fernandez: They say when they're 13, right? Dr. Bob: Yeah, but I don't care. This is my thing. Liz Fernandez: They will appreciate it. Dr. Bob: Let's hope so. Liz Fernandez: No, I absolutely agree. That is hard when people leave us suddenly. It is wise to be really authentic in your feelings and leave things ... What makes your people know. I have always done the same. It's like, is there anything I need to say to anybody that I know? I try and do that. Dr. Bob: Well, who knows. Maybe this is just a reminder for somebody just to do it a little bit more. I feel like people who ... Well, anyone who has a pet certainly, or anybody who is interested in exploring the experiences in the mind and insights of someone like you who's around death on a daily bases would benefit from getting a hold of your book. We'll put a link to the book on our website, which is integratedmdcare.com. Once this episode airs, then it will be available. I thought it was wonderful. I gained a lot of insights out of it. I'm sure many other people have as well. Liz Fernandez: Well, great. I am so pleased to hear that and thank you for offering to put it on the website. Dr. Bob: Well, Liz, thank you again for taking the time out of your day. Liz Fernandez: And thank you. I really appreciate it. All right. Dr. Bob: All right. Thanks, everyone for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.
Bill Palmer has dedicated much of his life to helping people get comfortable with death. Hear why he has hosted more than 75 Death Cafes and what he's learned from them and the people who attend. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Death Cafe website Transcript Dr. Bob: My guest on today's podcast has been on a really interesting journey over the past several years. Bill Palmer is a successful executive coach and management consultant who lives in Oakland, California. After a personal experience with a loved one who died while being supported by an excellent hospice organization, Bill was inspired to come home to Oakland and start volunteering with other people on hospice. And then he began hosting Death Cafes. To date, Bill's hosted over 75 Death Cafes for members of his community up in Oakland. If you're not familiar with Death Cafes, you will be after listening to this very informative podcast. Bill has had incredible insights through many, many hours spent with hundreds of people openly discussing death and dying. From the very practical aspects to the emotional and spiritual issues. On this podcast, he shares some of the insights that he's gained with us. I believe this can help you become more comfortable having those meaningful and really important conversations that you should be having with your loved ones and with yourself. I hope you're as grateful for these insights and reminders as I was, as I was speaking to them. Bill, thank you so much for being willing to spend some time with us and share a bit of your experience and knowledge with the listeners. Bill Palmer: Sure you're welcome. Dr. Bob: You have an interesting life, I'm assuming. For some reason, you have chosen to dedicate yourself to helping people get more comfortable talking about death. How did that come about? What was the ... My understanding is that you're a business coach and that you're coaching people through different aspects of business and leadership. How do you become a Death Cafe leader from that place? What was your journey? Bill Palmer: The journey really started actually, quite a few years ago when my mother was admitted as a hospice patient in Florida. She received incredibly good care at the Hospice of Palm Beach County where she lived at the time. As a business coach, and as an organizational development consultant, I was struck mostly by the wonderful care that she and my family received, but I was also struck by the incredible business alignment and sense of higher purpose in that hospice. At the time, I thought it was unique. And since then I volunteered in several different hospices. I found that to be more the rule than the exception. Somehow, rather, and I don't recall exactly how I came across a guy named John Underwood who lived in London, and who was the founder of Death Café. It just seemed like a great idea to me at the time. I became a hospice volunteer because I wanted to give something back. It didn't especially require any special skill to be a hospice volunteer. Sometimes just sitting with somebody, visiting, doing a respite visit something like that. But Death Cafe appealed to me because I could bring to bear some of the skills that I feel I have in terms of leading groups and speaking with individuals in an open and honest and kind of free, willing environment. So, I decided I would take John's advice and example and do a Death Café, which is actually pretty easy to do. Dr. Bob: You have the model, right? He shared the model with you and ... From my understanding ... Tell us what a Death Cafe for people who don't really understand it. Bill Palmer: Well, first of all, there's a website called www.deathcafe.com, and it gives a full explanation not only of what a Death Cafe is but how to start one if you want to in your own community. A Death Cafe is simply a free and open ... Free meaning there's no fee to attend, a group meeting of people, whoever wants to come, who want to talk about any aspect of death that interests them. That could be anything from where do I get a will to, deep philosophical and religious concerns to, what are the regulations about scattering ashes to, my companion died 40 years ago and I'm still grieving to, my spouse died last week and I feel nothing. There's an incredible richness of experience and this is going to sound really strange, but they're actually fun. There's a lot of laughter in a Death Cafe. Some of that laughter is just nervousness about speaking about a taboo subject, but some of it is just appreciation of life. If I could make one generalization about the Death Cafes, people leave feeling strongly that what they're doing in their lives right now, whether they're close to death or whether they feel like they're very far away, takes on an added significance if they can find a way to accept the fact that we're all going to die. One thing that surprised me about the 75 Death Cafes I've led is the number of people who apparently, intelligent, responsible, normal people who actually don't really think they're going to die. Dr. Bob: They certainly act like that, right? Bill Palmer: Yeah. Like I said, responsible, taxpaying, voting, civic-minded people who don't have a will, who don't have an advanced care directive, who've never discussed their wishes for their care towards the end of their lives. It is just an indication of the power of the taboo that people who in most every other aspect of their lives behave quite responsibly. But in this one area, even after they see and hear about the chaos that ensues if you die without a will, if you die without an advanced care directive, if you die or become disabled, even after they hear stories about that, it doesn't seem to get them. Dr. Bob: Do you think that people are denying that they're going to die or that they just think somehow things are going to work out? They just don't want to ... They don't feel like they need to do the preparation because things just have a way of working out? Bill Palmer: Well, I guess on an intellectual level, of course, they know they're going to die. But I think on some kind of emotional level, like a child, they don't really believe it. But I think it's probably a little bit of both, is just if you've never sat down and filled out an advance care directives, and you're using a good one, I'd ask some pretty tough questions. For example, if you don't really know what resuscitation is like, you might think sure, resuscitate me. And if you find out what resuscitation is actually really like in many cases, you might decide something very different. Dr. Bob: Right, in most cases. I think people, they watch TV shows, they watch ER or St. Elsewhere, these shows that depict somebody having a cardiac arrest. They do a couple of things and then a few seconds later they sit up and everyone's relieved, and it doesn't depict the absolute horror that ensues when somebody's doing chest compressions and ribs are breaking, and there's virtually no chance of survival in the vast majority of cases. So, yeah, are those kinds of things discussed even at that kind of graphic level? Are people open to hearing those kinds of things when they show up for the Death Cafes? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I think so. Anyone who leads a Death Cafe, including myself, leads it with a very light touch. There's no schedule of activities. There are no small groups. There are no icebreakers or anything like that. It's just open conversation. If somebody brings that up, people listen, and I think people are affected by it. There is a great deal of information that gets shared. A common statement is, my family won't discuss my death with me. I will or someone else in the group will say, "Well, here are some great resources." The conversation project, for example, can give you some tips and guidelines and do's and don'ts for, how do you have this conversation with people that don't want to talk about it? It's not an easy thing. So, I think there's that and there's a sense of comfort and community and that people find out well, gosh, I'm not alone in this. Other people feel this way too, or are afraid of the same thing, or have had a similar experience. I think it's comforting to people. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Oh, it's rich, and like you say, it's a safe space. Interestingly, I haven't been to one for a bit, but when I went to a few Death Cafes here in San Diego, and they did break up into small groups like four people and then there were some sample questions to stimulate conversation. There was a little bit of discussion as a group. I think as I remember, representatives from the small groups talked about some of the insights that came out. But I felt like there were so many people in the room, there were maybe 50 to 60 people in the room, and I felt like we missed getting the insight from more people in that space. So, I feel like maybe the open format like you're describing could be even more effective if everybody who wants to speak has a chance to. Bill Palmer: Well, anyone who's interested in starting a Death Cafe can read on the Death Cafe website, very specific and clear instructions for leading one. I think that if someone is fortunate enough to get 50 or 60 people at a Death Cafe, that's nice, but I think it's an unwieldy number. I know that I've always limited the attendance of Death Cafe to 20. Even at 20, it can be a bit unwieldy. So, I think the smaller group dynamic works. I know I was asked to help with a Death Cafe that was being sponsored in a retirement community here in the East Bay in California. 40, 50 people showed up. Yeah, we split up into small groups, but it just wasn't as satisfying. It is just really difficult to manage. If anybody's considering doing it, I would strongly recommend that you limit the attendance. You can use a website like Eventbrite which is a free ... It's like Evite, or Eventbrite, one, they're pretty much the same. You can invite people to purchase free tickets, or just sign up for registration. Then you can limit it to 15 or 20. Dr. Bob: How did you go about finding a location? Because if you're there's no fee, I'm assuming you've done 75 of these, I'm assuming that you're trying to avoid spending a lot of your own money on these. Is there money available from any organization to help defray costs of putting these on? Bill Palmer: Actually, to be specific, The Death Cafe, you can charge a fee if it's to reimburse the cost. For example, if you rent some space or if you provide some refreshments, you can recoup the cost with nominal fees. I was very fortunate. There's a funeral home here in Oakland called Chapel of the Chimes. They have a long, long history of community involvement and a beautiful setting. They have a lovely acreage and their buildings are fantastic. They have a high commitment to community service. So, I called him up and I said, "Would you sponsor a Death Cafe? I.e. give us free publicity, give us free space?" They said, "Yeah, we'll do that, and we'll also provide coffee and cookies and donuts for you. Because it's right in line with the way that we want to be involved with the community." Death Cafe Oakland gets free space and a little bit of free publicity. They get 20 people a month walking in there who maybe otherwise wouldn't know about Chapel of the Chimes. They've just been great to us. Churches are likely spots, community centers are likely spots. Synagogues are likely spots, and funeral homes I think. There's an obvious disincentive for certain people, well, I don't want to go to a funeral home ever for any reason, but it's worked for us very well. Dr. Bob: Right? Well, my sense ... So, a great alignment, it seems like a great partnership as long as everybody's approaching it with the right intention, and it's comfortable. You don't want to partner with somebody who's going to be pushy and pushing their services. It sounds like that's clearly not happening. But the people who are coming to Death Cafes are probably the same people who don't mind walking into a funeral home. Bill Palmer: That's probable. Dr. Bob: You've got a bit of a self-selected group. Well, that's helpful. I appreciate that. So, you've done 75 of the Death Cafes. When was your first one? Do remember- Bill Palmer: March, of 2013. We actually had our 76th last night. Dr. Bob: Fantastic. So, you've spent 76, and then they're probably what, an hour and a half to two hours each? Bill Palmer: Two hours, yeah. Dr. Bob: Okay. You've had a lot of time to hear people sharing. I'm sure that you are well aware of some of the gaps and the challenges and the struggles around living and dying. Can you share some of the top insights that you've gained from the experience, and offer some of those to the listeners? Bill Palmer: I've thought about this a lot. Something that jumps out at me is that how we die in America is largely a function of race and wealth. Death Cafe in Oakland or the part of Oakland that we're in is a very different thing than a Death Cafe might be in a very different part of Oakland. That jumps out at me constantly. Another thing that jumps out at me is, we live in a secular world, many of us do. Certainly, here in California, at least in the East Bay, in the Bay Area. I'm not sure that that's a bad thing but another thing that jumps out at me is that the loss of rituals, of customs, and community, most religions supply ... Things are taking their place but if you look at the Jewish religion, or you look at Islam, or you look at Catholicism, really any of the major world's religions, Hindu, there are very specific rituals and customs around death that are a comfort, and that allow people to navigate or at least help them to navigate through what is painful and difficult. So, I think that a lot of the interest in Death Cafe and in the conversation around death, it's much larger than Death Café, is around some of the loss of those rituals and the lack of replacements for them. Dr. Bob: I started to write down the statement because I'm sure it was going to be something really valuable. Could you finish the statement, the loss of rituals, customs and community around the time of death has- Bill Palmer: Left a vacuum where people are alone. They don't have a way to navigate through that first, terrible few days, weeks, months. I just think it makes it harder. Dr. Bob: It's a vacuum, I can see that. So, people were coming to the Death Cafes in part to help to fill that void, that vacuum, or because they're afraid that that will be there? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I think on two levels. One is simply, what are rituals that I could participate in that I no longer an observant and fill in the blank. Catholic or Jew or Muslim or whatever. There are rituals that people have created in this country or reinvented in this country about dying at home, and how to care for the body of someone who has just died, against the medicalization and hospitalization, and institutionalization of death. So, I think it's both those things. Some of it is just information. What am I supposed to do? Where can I go to find some community around it? Dr. Bob: The practical issues that can really lead to a lot of stress and anxiety if they're not addressed or planned for. Bill Palmer: Yeah, exactly. Dr. Bob: Any other big insights that are jumping out for you? Bill Palmer: Unfinished business. I can't tell you. I haven't done an exact count, but probably in the 75 Death Cafes, we've had, oh gosh, 500, 600 people come through there. What I constantly hear is five years, 10 years, 20 years after someone died, that the unfinished business that I had with that person haunts me. I never forgave them, or they never forgave me. I had a sister, brothers, spouse, father, mother, son, daughter, and I never resolved what it was that drove us apart. To me, unfinished business in our relationships is the gasoline that gets thrown on the fire of grief. It just makes it all that much worse because you can't fix it once they're gone, they're gone. So, that's something that I hear over and over again. Dr. Bob: Do you offer resources ... it seems to me like ... I think one of the things that felt a little bit dissatisfying for me about the Death Cafes, was that there were people who are clearly looking for support and needing additional help and resources, and there wasn't ... Because it's not promotional, you're not giving out pamphlets or directing people specifically to resources. It feels like there would be an opportunity to bring in some experts and to have people bring in their specific questions to get that kind of guidance. What's the thinking on that? Bill Palmer: Well, I think the thinking is, and it may be flawed is that, above all, John Underwood the founder of Death Cafe did not want to commercialize. I've had any number of invitations from perfectly respectable, fine people who have a book, they have a program they have this, that or the other thing, and they want to come in and in effect, make a sales pitch. Under normal circumstances, I'd say that'd be fine. But I think it leaves us open to having to vet them, having to know what they say. My solution has been to, I've created a Facebook page for Death Cafe Oakland. I post resources there. If somebody says, "Well, gee, how do I start this conversation with my spouse?" I can mention the conversation project. I can also tell people to look on that Facebook page, which is open to the public. You don't have to have attended Death Cafe Oakland to see it. You can find wills, you can find an Advance Care Directive. You can find lots and lots of research. So, I agree with you that the one thing I do specify is that, and I say this at the beginning of every Death Café, is this is not grief counseling. So, if you're grieving, what I say is, please talk about if you want to, we will support you, but it's not grief counseling in the sense that I personally cannot offer you continuing support. Dr. Bob: Yes, it's not a support group. It's a forum, right? With a lot of people coming for different reasons? Bill Palmer: Right. I can refer them ... They can do a Google search as easily as I can on bereavement groups. There's many of them. But I agree with you, my solution is a bit of a compromise, and hopefully, it's workable, but probably every single person who ever came to Death Cafe Oakland who wanted a specific resource for a specific need sometimes didn't get it. Dr. Bob: You're staying true to a mission and that's honorable and it makes sense because you could open it up for all kinds of challenges if you don't keep the boundaries clear, and you're providing ... Again, you're doing this all as a volunteer, right? You have a career and you have to divide your time between things that allow you to pursue that and to ... I really applaud you, commend you for your passion and commitment to this. It's really remarkable. Bill Palmer: The irony is I get more than I give. I appreciate you for saying that, thank you. Dr. Bob: Just to quickly follow up on that, what have you gotten? How has it changed you to have this experience and to be part of this movement? Bill Palmer: Well on a very practical level, to avoid any hint of hypocrisy, I have filled out every form known to humanity with regard to my death, and I'm closer in terms of age, I've got a lot more behind me than I do ahead of me. I think that what I've gotten, the most valuable thing I've gotten about that is, if not an acceptance of it, but a clear idea of, if I have my way, how I want it to go to know exactly what I think is right for me in terms of end of life care. If I'm not able to make decisions or to be mentally competent, a great deal of faith in the agreements that I have with my family, specifically my daughter and my son, who I 100% trust will carry out my wishes should I not be able to act on my own. So, that's a huge gift, that really is. Just the incredible richness and variety of the people who show up, I'm always interested in groups of people. I'm never bored in a group because I'm always watching to see and hear and feel what's going on, and they never disappoint me. It's always fascinating. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I couldn't agree more, especially when they're talking about issues that are so vital and important to them. Do you still have any fear or concerns about what lies ahead for you? Bill Palmer: Sure. I think the idea of gradually losing capabilities is what bothers me and bothers most people that I talk to. Not that I'll be dead, but that I won't be able to move, or I won't be able to speak, or I won't be able to hear, or see, and then that gradual loss of capability, of mobility. Of course, I'm afraid of that. I've also been a hospice volunteer and seen people who seem to live with a quality of life, whose lost a lot. So, I take a little comfort in that. But yeah, that scares me. Dr. Bob: That is such an interesting awareness, right? That some people when they lose certain capabilities, certain degrees of independence, when they're dealing with challenges, some people are ready to die because they've lost these things and it's intolerable for them and they're ready to check out as soon as possible. Then there are others who just handle it with such grace and acceptance and even joy. I don't know what the secret formula is, I'm looking for it. Because I want to be able to A, have it for myself, and B, be able to prescribe it for my patients. But it's such a unique individual, I guess, a way of being in the world. I try to figure it out, but I haven't been able to, and I'm still working on that. Bill Palmer: Let me know when you do. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I will. You'll be one of the first ones. As far as ... I think most of us share a little bit of the fear of the unknown of what's coming. I guess one of the things that I'm really passionate about now is helping to give people a greater sense of understanding, a greater sense of control over the circumstances that they may find themselves in. Part of that is by doing all the right preparation, filling out all the right paperwork, having the conversations with those who will be responsible for making those decisions if you can't. But also, I think ... Do you feel like you have a medical team, do you feel like you have a physician who if and when things become really challenging or intolerable for you, will engage at the level that you need to support you through that difficult challenging last journey? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I do. I am a Kaiser Permanente member. And one of the criteria for my primary care physician that I insisted on was somebody who would not only understand my wishes about that but who would act upon them. The interviews that I did, I found a physician who I'm reasonably certain will honor my wishes. My advanced care directive is scanned into my medical record there... it's a crapshoot a little bit- Dr. Bob: A little bit, it always is. Bill Palmer: You fall down on the street and nobody knows who you are, and they take you to whatever hospital, the ER people are bound by law and by custom to do everything that they can to resuscitate you. Is there a chance it could all go sideways? Yeah, but I feel like ... I've taken every precaution I could to try to make it go the way that I want, and my physician she seems like she's just fine with it. So that's important. Dr. Bob: Well, let's hope whenever it happens, many many years in the future, she'll probably be retired, and you'll have to have a new person who comes on ... I guess that's a good reason to try to find younger doctors so that you connect with. Well, this has been great. I feel like we've given people a great overview of what the Death Cafes are designed to do, and hopefully given some insight into where some of the challenges and struggles people face are, and how to try to mitigate those. I appreciate your time. If you have any burning thoughts that you want to share before we sign off, I am all ears. If you feel like you're complete with what we've discussed, that's totally cool too. Bill Palmer: No burning thoughts, but I want to thank you for the time, and for your thoughtful questions and statements. It was great to connect with you and someday, some way I hope our paths will cross. Thank you again. Dr. Bob: Thank you, Bill. Bill Palmer, founder and curator of Death Cafe Oakland, and I'm sure our paths will cross hopefully fairly soon.
Lydia Lombardi Good is a licensed clinical social worker. She shares the importance of self-compassion, what it is, and how to get comfortable with it and how it helps the grieving process. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Lydia Lombardi Good, Pier View Counseling Transcript How Self-Compassion Helps The Grieving Process Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's my pleasure. This is a Life and Death Conversation, and we talk about things that we can do to enhance life and bring more joy and peace to life, and of course, we talk about death. We don't shy away from the topic of death. We always explore a bit about how our guests feel about the whole end of life, death and dying, what experiences they've had, how the awareness of death seems to show up in your life. For people who come on and have these conversations, most of the time they're pretty comfortable speaking about death and sharing their experiences and thoughts about it. I'm just going to open it up and let you share a little bit. I know that you do a lot of work in grief and loss, and you've been in hospice, and have a lot of experience. So share a little bit about what the idea of death and dying means to you, and how it shows up in your life. Lydia Lombardi Good: What I learned from my experience with death and dying, working with clients, having my own personal experience losing close loved ones, is the more we think about death and understand that it is inevitable, and we are all dying a little bit every day, I think the richer a life we are able to live, and we are more mindful of the choices we make, and the people we choose to surround ourselves with, and the life we want to live, knowing that nothing is permanent. Everything is impermanent. And if we live a life without regrets and can be more present to our lives instead of staying maybe stuck in the past, or focused too much on the future, we can look back and say, "You know, I fully experienced all that. I don't wish to be back there again. I wish to be right here, right now, to live my life fully," knowing that we really only have one shot at that. So that's how it's changed me a lot in terms of my own choices, the way I live my life, the way I try to stay compassionate. A lot of it's talked today, and what I really am passionate about is teaching people to embody self-compassion and treat yourself kindly, the way you would treat a close friend. And the more we can do that, the better life we can have. The more chances we take, the more we can just fix up things as they are, instead of always wishing things to be another way, or for us to be another way. And when we do that, we're missing what's happening right now. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's beautiful. And I think it's pretty common to hear people share that when they contemplate death, when they recognize, like you say, the impermanence of everything, it really allows us to stay more focused on what's happening right now, and feel gratitude, and just feel very present. I want to talk about the mindfulness, the self-compassion, and the mindfulness, because mindfulness meditation, self-compassion have figured prominently in my life and I've done my work there, I've gone through courses in mindfulness. And it's so interesting what you said, to treat yourself the way that you would treat a close friend. Do we do that? I mean, do we really do that? The stuff that we lay on ourselves, and the way that we diss ourselves, which is so common. Like, if we were doing that to a friend, would they stick around? Would we still- Lydia Lombardi Good: We wouldn't have any. Dr. Bob: We wouldn't have any friends. Share a little bit more about that, about how you came to that, what your journey has been to become a teacher of self-compassion and mindfulness. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yes. Yeah. So, I was working in hospice since about 2007, 2008. Right out of graduate school I started this work, and I think I understood it to the best of my knowledge. I'd had a lot of loss in my past, and a lot of trauma that I thought I had worked through and had done a lot of healing around and was in this work. And I think I had as much compassion for the experiences of my clients and patients as I could have at the time, for that point I was in my life where I was at and what experiences I had been a part of at that point. And then it was 2012; I lost my dad to cancer. He died of prostate cancer and endocrine cancer. So the three years prior to that, we were taking care of him, and it was a real aggressive form, so it was a really difficult dying process. So that following year I was in charge of settling what I call closing out someone's life. That process of closing up his home, preparing it for the next chapter, getting his belongings and setting up beneficiaries, that kind of thing, and doing my grief as best as I could, as much as I knew how at that time. And then, shortly before the one year anniversary, I got a call from the medical examiner's office that my uncle, who was one of my father's primary caregivers aside from myself, had taken his life. So then I embarked on that next journey. I was his only family here, so helping to then close out another person's life. And then two months later, I get a call. My husband's out of state at a bachelor party. And I get a call that he's had an accident and I need to fly out immediately to Arizona and be with him because he's had a traumatic brain injury. So I fly out there and spend 10 days in ICU with him until we were basically told that we need to consider letting him go because he was not going to recover at that point. So my real journey I think began there. I could make sense that my dad was in his late 70's, although for some that is still young, but he had lived a really full life. My uncle, I wasn't as close with. It was a different type of grief, but losing my own husband was a total ... knocked me off my feet. It was a total life-changer. So basically, learning about self-compassion and mindfulness started the year before, when my dad was going through his dying process, but really kicked into high gear after I lost my husband, simply for just survival. I was in survival mode- Dr. Bob: Yeah, self-preservation. Lydia Lombardi Good: ... trying to figure out, yeah, how do I survive all this. Three in a row, I'm totally alone, feeling like I'm totally alone. How do I keep going? How do I keep going? How do I make sense of ... if this can happen to my 32-year-old husband, what's going to happen to me? This feeling of just total lack of safety and security and anything that I once knew. So that's when things really, really kicked into high gear for me. And a couple of years later I ended up leaving hospice. I was working out as a bereavement manager, and I decided to start my own practice, focusing on grief and trauma. A lot of it because of all the work I did with amazing clinicians, and spiritual healers, and energy healers, and the amazing, amazing people that supported me through my past, inspired me so much that I felt I really needed to do this myself and work with individuals again, and step away from the program planning and go back to pure clinical work. And it's been amazing. Dr. Bob: I bet. Wow. And like many people, your journey has taken you someplace because of your own personal experience. I mean, you have the training, you have the structure of having worked in a company, but once you had your own personal experience and were down in the depths, and then figured out what you needed to do to survive, and then I'm assuming beyond surviving, starting to thrive again, you recognized that you needed to be in a position to share that on a deeper level. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. It's been tremendously healing, although I didn't jump into it necessarily to do it for my own healing. I wanted to make sure that was taken care of on its own, so I wasn't coming to work with clients doing my own work. But feeling complete and on a really steady path with my own healing empowered me to know the tools that work for people, and to empower others to consider some of these healing modalities. And mindfulness and self-compassion were right up there. They were the primary methods for me in terms of my healing. A lot of people as what does that mean. When I heard, "Self-compassion," I frankly, four, five, or six years ago I never knew what that even meant. It's not a term a lot of people in western culture understand or use. So really learning what that meant, and practicing it for myself, so I could know how to show others to do that. Dr. Bob: So why don't you try to explain it and let people know, because there's probably a lot of people here who ... you know, the self-compassionate conjures up some images and some thoughts, but I think you could probably do a really good job of helping people see what it really is to learn self-compassion. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. So, self-compassion defined more is bringing yourself to the same attitude and understanding that you would do for others, or a beloved friend. So asking, how can I care for and comfort myself at this moment, instead of judging and criticizing. How can I bring kindness and understanding, and patience, when I'm confronted with a personal feeling or loss, instead of beating myself up. And then honoring and accepting your humanness. And with grief, I think where I see a lot of people, and I did this myself, we put ourselves in a timeline immediately. I was talking to a woman the other day, and she said to me she just lost her fiance a week ago. And she said, "I'm trying to be happy. I know I need to be happy, so I'm just going to be happy, and I cry when I need to, but I just want to be happy." And I said, "You know, why do you have to be happy? You just lost your fiance. Can you just honor what's really happening with you? You're sad, you're angry, you're all these feelings ..." that she was telling me before she said she felt she had to be happy. We try to pressure ourselves to move faster than we actually it's reasonable for our healing. And this is actually what stuns our healing when we try to pretend it's another way. We try to pretend that ... you know, you'll hear people saying, "In a year you should be better. Just give yourself that year." Well, for some people a year it's just begun. The trauma is just starting to settle, and now all of the sudden there is space for grief. Or the realization or the beginnings of acceptance begin to occur after a year, for some people longer. None of that's wrong; it's just is. But with self-compassion, we can give ourselves that space to say, "Whatever's happening is just right for me. As long as I'm not hurting myself or I'm hurting another person, this is what I need to do in order to move forward and to heal, step by step." Dr. Bob: So how does that happen? How does somebody learn self-compassion? How do you go from having the normal chatter, the typical berating and judging that most people have ... has become sort of their pattern, to having this self-compassion, and what's the process? Lydia Lombardi: I think the first part is learning you're being able to become aware of the voice inside you and what it's saying, so really listening to that. So if you start to notice your pattern of self-deprecation, or being really hard and punitive with yourself in difficult times, starting to become an observer of those thoughts instead of allowing yourself to become hooked to them. The problem is, a lot of us, me included again, we get so used to those thoughts, they just become ... we get on autopilot with them, which becomes kind of a way of being. But by practicing things like mindfulness, or meditation, we allow ourselves to slow down a little bit, take a breath in between thoughts, and start to notice the thoughts instead of getting hooked. For example, I used to notice I would get really frustrated with myself when I would get really, really down. Like, a year or two after my husband had died, I would all of a sudden have a really bad day, a really bad grief day, and I used to think to myself, "Gosh, where is this coming from? What's going on? Why am I feeling this? Gosh, I've done all this healing, and I've done all this work. Why am I sobbing now? Something must be wrong with me. Maybe I'm just not doing enough work to heal." And all these questions, instead of just catching the thought and saying, "You know what? There I go again. Can I just have the feeling that I'm feeling and let it rise and fall naturally, instead of resisting?" Because we find, when we push against it, and we create this resistance, we actually create more suffering for ourselves. And this is a real Buddhist concept as well, that pain is inevitable, but pain with resistance equals the suffering. When we can just settle into the pain and just feel it, it's like when we have a good cry. When you're stuffing it down, and it's that nod in your throat, it hurts so bad, it's so uncomfortable, but then when we just let ourselves ball, all of a sudden you notice you come out of it and it's like, wow, I feel so much better. Why didn't I just let myself do that before? Dr. Bob: It's a catharsis, yeah. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. Dr. Bob: I think we need to allow for more of that. So, a big thing that's coming up for me as you're describing this process is awareness, self-awareness. That's the first step, right? Because if you're not aware, if you don't have an awareness of what's truly taking place, there's no way that you can influence it, or impact it. Lydia Lombardi Good: Exactly. Dr. Bob: And again, going back to this, sort of the analogy of treating yourself like you would treat a friend, imagine if you were with somebody and they said something just kind of off the cuff, and your response was, "Well, you're an idiot. Like, what a stupid thing to say." Or, "There you go again, making a fool of yourself," those kinds of things that people are so comfortable saying to themselves, thinking to themselves, that if they were being said out loud to a friend, they would never tolerate that. Lydia Lombardi Good: That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. Why is that okay to do to ourselves? Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's not, but we do it, and we keep doing it. And I think we just believe that this is the way that it is. People become so accustomed, and I think it deflates you just like if you have a teacher who's always telling you how stupid you are, or a parent who's always telling you how disobedient you are, or sloppy, or whatever. That has an impact, and it will keep us from really feeling the depth of I guess the beauty and the magic of life. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yes. And it holds you back from that experience that you deserve to grief. And sometimes that sounds really strange when I say that to people, the love you had for that person needs to be expressed through your grieving process. Someone told me years ago grief is the twin of love. You can't have one without the other. So, why are we suppressing this grief expression if it's simply an expression of our love? And whatever that grief presentation looks like. For some it's crying, for some it's sharing stories with family, or memories, or whatever that looks like, memorializing, ritualizing the person. But you're entitled to that experience. That's how we're able to move forward. But when you don't allow that experience to yourself, it's still there; it's still going to be there. A lot of people will say time heals everything. It's actually time and attention. Time alone doesn't do a thing if we're not giving it the attention that it needs to do the healing that we deserve. Dr. Bob: Time can actually just cause more festering and the wounds to deepen. Lydia Lombardi Good: Right. Dr. Bob: Yeah, if you think about it kind of like an infection in your system, yes, there are some self-limited infections that will get better over time, but there are some that if they're not addressed, if you're not aware of them, and deal with them, they'll eventually cause incredible suffering and ultimately kill you. Lydia Lombardi Good: Exactly. Exactly. I use that wound example a lot. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Interesting. And one of the other things that came up, and I'm sure that this is something that's very much in your awareness and in some of what you teach, is the concept of the gap, the space, that most people just remain unaware of. So we go back to awareness. And I think it was Victor Frankl who originally made this quote. I actually saw it in one of Steven Covey's books, but it's a quote about between stimulus and response, there is a gap, there's a space. And it's within that space that our freedom and our power come from. And the fact that we have that space to choose what to do with, how to respond, if we're going to respond, what to do with that stimulus, that feeling that came, the words that someone spoke, if we recognize that we have this power, everybody has this power to take a space, take some time, and choose what to do with it, it is too incredibly empowering. Most of us are just reacting all the time without giving any honor to that space. Lydia Lombardi Good: You're right, you're right, and that space is where all the magic happens ... Dr. Bob: That's where all the magic happens. Lydia Lombardi Good: ... where physiologically we can settle our nervous system, we can move into a more parasympathetic nervous system and really think critically, shift those thoughts to a different part of the brain and be more skillful in our actions, exactly. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Lydia Lombardi Good: And maybe that just means that we still don't know what to do, and maybe skillful means stepping away and just taking a break and thinking more about what to do next, instead of jumping right in and just making a reactionary decision that could actually lead to more harm. Dr. Bob: Right. Yeah. That awareness, and it's something that I've tried to teach with my children, with others, and of course I forget. I still at times react ... Lydia Lombardi Good: Sure. Dr. Bob: ... and then when I realize that I've given up my power, I'm giving up my power to choose a response, then I actually exaggerate it, where I start ... I'll give it a full two or three seconds, when somebody says something, rather than having an immediate response prepared and going right into it, I will exaggerate the space. And sometimes it can almost be a little awkward. People wonder what you're doing and why you're not answering, but it just kind of reminds me and allows me to feel empowered and to feel a sense of peace and control again. That's a really great exercise. Lydia Lombardi Good: Absolutely. Absolutely. We're not used to that in our culture. You're very right. We always feel like we need to fill the space. And I think that's a big part of the problem too; even when we're consoling a person who's grieving, we have a hard time just sitting with their raw emotion or the feeling, or just saying nothing and just being present to their experience. We have a hard time with that. We feel like we have to say the right thing, or jump in and fix it, or push the tissue box to them real quick, to make sure their tears don't get out of control. We can be messy and just sit with snout rolling down our face. Just say it's okay. This is what's happening right now; it's okay. We don't have to fix it; we don't have to talk over it and make it pretty, put a bow on it. Dr. Bob: That's one of the things that's been such a gift for me, working with people, especially at end of life, people who are approaching the last days or weeks of life, is I get to visit them in their homes and spend time with the patient, the family, the person. And sometimes I will just be there. The conversation will stop, and as you say, so many people want just to fill the... it's uncomfortable, so they just want to fill it and find something to say, and think that that's going to make it better. But what I'm recognizing is, people will want to know that you're comfortable just being present, and just holding that space, maybe holding their hand, having a head on the shoulder, or just being in that space so you can feel what it is that's happening, and maybe reflect back just some concerns, some love and support. As an ER doc, for the 20+ years, I was an ER doc, you don't have much time to do that. But now being in people's own home, it has been such a gift. And it's a gift for me, and I think it's a gift for them to know that there's a certain comfort with just being present. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's so humbling for you as the individual, to just allow yourself that humility to know that you don't have the right answer. And people really respect that I find. They can tell when you're just trying to fill the space, or trying to fix it. But when you have enough humility just to say, "You know what? God, I don't have the answer to this. Maybe there isn't an answer to this." Dr. Bob: Right. So let's just be together for a moment. Lydia Lombardi Good: I'll just be here. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Let's just be. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's powerful. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. I'll tell you just a quick story. My husband died in November, and a month after I was [inaudible 00:25:17] mother and it was Christmas night. And my neighbor comes. This is a neighbor who I grew up on that street with for my whole life, and he had a son who had died. I think five years prior, in a really tragic accident. And he showed up at the door, and I open the door, and I said, "Paul, what are you doing here?" And he opens his arms, and he said, "There are no words. There are no words." He says, "I just came here to give you a hug." And every time I tell this story I get teary-eyed again because I just think, I'll never forget that. I'll never forget that. Tons of people told me all sorts of stuff, but that simple act of just, listen, I'm just here to give you a hug and to hold you. I don't have answers; I don't have anything to tell you what to do or not to do. I just want to be here, was so profound and I'll never forget that. I try to remember that very clearly, to remember of my own action, how to be with others, how important that was. We forget. We forget the importance of that simplicity, that human connection. We're looking for the next intervention. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And that goes back to a little bit of that self-talk. It's like, "I don't know enough words. I can't be consoling or comforting. My presence isn't ... that's just not enough." So it's complex, and I think it takes time for someone to learn this too. It's not innate. For some people maybe it is, but for most of us, it's learned over time. And sometimes it's through those personal experiences as well. Lydia Lombardi Good: Right. Right. And what we do know is that actually the more we practice it, it actually can restructure parts of our limbic system in our brain and help us ... it's like building a muscle. The more we practice, the better we get at it. Or we're making new neural connections, and over time it becomes easier to tap into. But you're right. It takes time. It's a skill. It's a skill. Dr. Bob: It's an interesting thing. I was just realizing that some of what has changed for me, some of the learning that I've had through being with people in this state, in this condition, it spills over into other parts of your life, where I now feel more comfortable in other relationships with silence, with just being present and not always thinking that I have to fill the space with my wife, or with my children, that there's a deeper connection that can exist just by sharing a space together, which is interesting because a lot of time I'm someone who has kind of felt like if we're together, we should be talking. Like, we should be communicating about something in some way, and if not, then it's because we don't have anything to say. Lydia Lombardi Good: Right. Right. Dr. Bob: So I'd become much more comfortable, which is nice. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yes. Yeah. It's so beautiful that when we get better at this in our work, it does spill over and makes all of our relationships and experiences, as I said in the beginning, so much richer. Yeah. Dr. Bob: So you're in San Diego, right? Or in San Diego County. Do you have an office where people come to see you? Or do you go- Lydia Lombardi: Yes. Dr. Bob: ... see people at home? How does your practice work? Lydia Lombardi Good: I have a practice in Vista, North County San Diego, Pier View Counseling. Pier like the pier in the ocean. And I specialize in supporting people who are experiencing grief, trauma. And my subspecialty is really working with partner loss. But all ages. I actually have a group as well in Vista, at Vista Library, the second Saturday of every month. It's a grief support group. Anyone's welcome to come. We've been going on for about almost three years now, and people come and go and use the space as needed, and it's a really nice complement to some of the individual work I do, where people either who just aren't interested in individual work right now, or just looking for others who are going through a same life transition they are and are just, again, wanting to tap into that common humanity, which is part of that self-compassion piece, knowing others are experiencing what you're experiencing too, although it looks a little different, we're all going through something. So yes. People come to me at my practice. And I do some Saturday hours at another office in Oceanside, but mostly Vista. Dr. Bob: All right. Great. And I'm assuming that you have some resources for people on your website, that can help them get a little more information about you, and a little bit about some of the topics that we've been covering? Lydia Lombardi Good: Yes. PierViewCounseling.com. Dr. Bob: We'll have links for that on the podcast as well, integratedmdcare.com. So there are lots of ways for people to find you, which is wonderful. Lydia Lombardi Good: Great. Dr. Bob: I have a feeling, now that we've had a chance to connect, for me to learn more about your background and how you approach things, I certainly feel that there will be opportunities for us to collaborate with some of the patients and families that we're supporting as well. Lydia Lombardi Good: Well, I'd be honored. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I look forward to that. I really, really appreciate you taking the time and sharing some of your experience and your wisdom with our listeners, and I'm hopeful that maybe there will be another opportunity to bring you back on and revisit some of this in the future. Lydia Lombardi: Thank you. And thank you for everything you do. So important. I could say that from working in the field, but then when you actually have it, when my dad was dying, having that experience in our home, it changed everything. I saw it from a whole another light, how critical that support is when a family member is dying. So thank you for what you do. Dr. Bob: It's my honor, and I imagine having you there for your father who was an incredible gift for him. So he was very fortunate in that. Lydia Lombardi Good: Yeah. Grateful. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thanks, everybody for tuning in, and we'll talk with you very soon. Have a great day.
Please Note: This was recorded as a Facebook Live earlier this year prior to the recent ruling to overturn the California End of Life Options Act 2015 by Riverside County Superior Court Judge. In response, California Attorney General Xavier Becerra filed an emergency appeal seeking a stay of Superior Court Judge Daniel Ottolia's ruling that invalidated the less than two-year-old medical aid-in-dying law. "It is important to note the ruling did not invalidate the law or the court would have said so explicitly in its order, so the law remains in effect until further notice," said John C. Kappos, a partner in the O'Melveny law firm representing Compassion & Choices. If this law and the right to die with dignity is important to you, we urge you to learn more from Compassion and Choices the organization that helped get the law passed. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Need more information? Contact Dr. Bob for a free consultation. Transcript Dr. Bob: On this episode, Elizabeth Semenova and I speak very frankly about what it's like to support people through Medical Aid and Dying. We explain the process; we discuss who asks for this kind of support and why there are still so many barriers. This was originally captured as a Facebook Live and repurposed as a podcast because this information is so vitally important. Please share the podcast with everyone and anyone you feel would benefit from listening. Thank you. Dr. Bob: I'm going to do a little bit of introduction for myself, if you're watching this and you have been on the integrated MD Care site, you probably know a bit about me. I've been a physician for 25/ 30 years, somewhere in that range. Over the past several years I've been focusing on providing care for people who are dealing with complex illnesses, the challenges of aging, the challenges of dying. During these few years, I've discovered a lot of gaps in the health care system that cause a lot of challenges for people. Dr. Bob: We developed a medical practice to try to address those big challenges in those big gaps that we've encountered. It's been really remarkable to be able to do medical care in a way that is truly sensitive to what people are really looking for and what their families are looking for that is not constrained and limited to what the medical system will allow. It's not constrained by what Medicare will pay, what insurance will pay. We allow people to access us completely and fully and we are there to support them in a very holistic way with medical physician care, nursing care, social working care and then a whole team of therapists. Massage therapists, music therapists, acupuncturists, nutritionists. Dr. Bob: So that has been really fascinating and phenomenal. Elizabeth came along in the last several months. Really, she was drawn primarily to the true end of life care that we deliver and has been truly surprised how beautifully we are able to care for people who aren't necessarily dying as well. Elizabeth: Absolutely, yeah. Dr. Bob: So we can talk about all the different aspects of that, but we are here today to really talk about Medical Aid and Dying. Because, shortly after we started this practice, back in January 2016 California became one of the few states in the United States that does allow physician-assisted death. Dr. Bob: It allows what is also known as Death with Dignity, Medical Aid in Dying. The California End of Life Option Act passed in June 2016. At that point, a person with a terminal illness, an adult who is competent, had the ability to request a prescription of medicine from their physician, from a physician. That if taken, would allow them to have a very peaceful, dignified death at a place and time of their choosing. Since June 2016 we have become essentially experts and kind of the go-to team in San Diego for sure and actually throughout a good portion of Southern California because other physicians are reluctant to participate or because the systems that the patients are in make it very difficult or impossible for them to take advantage of this law. There is a lot of confusion about it. It's a very complex, emotionally charged issue. We as a team, Elizabeth and I, along with other members of our team have taken it upon ourselves to become true experts and guides so that people can get taken care of in a way that is most meaningful and sensitive. In a way that allows them to be in control and determine the course of their life leading up to their death and how they are going to die. That's why we are here. We want to educate; we want to inform, we want people to not be afraid of the unknowns. We want to dispel the myths. I'm passionate about that. We work together, and I think we do a very good job as a team, of supporting patients and families. I'd like to have Elizabeth share a little about why this is so important to her and then we are going to get into some more of the specifics about what's actually taking place, the requirements, how the process works and if there are questions people have we are going to answer those as well. We are going to go for about 20/ 25 minutes, and if it turns out that we don't get through enough of our material then we will have another session, but we don't want to make this too long. We want to make it concise, meaningful and impactful. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: All right. Elizabeth: Okay. I started as a hospice social worker, and I became an advocate for Aid and Dying because I learned about the law. Learned that there were not a lot of options, policies, procedures in place, in Southern California when I started working in hospice for people to take advantage of and participate in the End of Life Option Act. Elizabeth: There were very, very, very few resources. There were no phone numbers to call of people who would answer questions. There were no experts who, well not no experts, who thoroughly understood the law but it was very hard to access that information. Elizabeth: I did my best to find it and became connected with some groups and some individuals who were experienced with and understood the law and became really passionate about pursuing advocacy and allowing as many people to have access to that information as possible. I started working on sharing that information and being a resource and learning everything that I could so that other people could have that. How I became connected with Integrated MD care and with you, I found you as a resource for another client, and we started having conversations, and I learned that it was possible to be supportive of people through this process through the work you were doing and I took the opportunity to become a part of it. We have done a lot to support a lot of people, and it's become a really special part of our work and my life. Dr. Bob: Why is it so important to you? Why is it so important to you for people to have access and the information? Elizabeth: I really believe that every life can only be best lived if you know all of the options that you have available to you. So how can you make choices without information? Right? So when it comes to something like this which is a life and death situation, quite literally, there are limited resources for people to make informed choices. What could possibly be more important than having access to information about what your legal rights are to how you live and die? With California only having begun this process of Aid and Dying. Exploring different perspectives and legal options and philosophical positions on the subject, I think it's really important to open that conversation and to allow people who support it as well as people who are against it to have those conversations and to explore how they feel about it and why. Then of course for the people who want to participate, who want information, resources, support in the process they have every legal right to it, in my opinion, they have every moral right to it and if there are no other people who are willing to support them I feel it is my duty to do that. Dr. Bob: Awesome. And you do it well. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Yeah it's kind of crazy to think we have this legal process in place. People have spoken up and said, we want to have access to this, and we believe it's the right thing. Despite the fact that we have a law in place that allows it, it was so difficult, and it's still is to some degree, but especially in the beginning, it was like a vast wasteland. If somebody wanted to find out how to access this process, no one could really give them adequate information. There were organizations that would tell them what the process is and how it happens but there was no one stepping up to say 'I'll support you.' There were no physicians, and there was no one who was willing to give the name of a physician who was willing. It was very frustrating in the beginning of this process, in the first, I would say, the first year and a half. Still, to some degree, getting the right information, getting put in touch with those who will support it is difficult or impossible. Even some of the hospital systems that do support Medical Aid and Dying their process is very laborious, and there are so many steps that people have to go through that in many cases they can't get through it all. Our practice we are filling a need. Our whole purpose in being is to fill the gaps in health care that cause people to struggle. One of my mantras is 'Death is inevitable, suffering is not.' Right. We are all going to die, but death does not have to be terribly painful or a struggle. It can be a beautiful, peaceful, transformative process. We've been involved in enough End of Life scenarios that I can say that with great confidence that given the right approach, the right information, the right guidance, the right support it can always be a comfortable and essentially beautiful process. Elizabeth: Something that is important too also is to have people who have experience with these processes these struggles that people have. Not just anyone can make it an easy process. Not just anyone can make it a smooth process. You have to have it those obstacles you have experienced what the difficulties are and where the glitches are and in order to be able to fill those gaps you have to know where they are. Dr. Bob: Right. Elizabeth: Sometimes that comes from just falling into the hole and climbing out which is something we have experienced a few times. Dr. Bob: Having been through it enough times to... and of course we will come across- Elizabeth: More... Dr. Bob: Additional obstacles but we'll help...and that doesn't just apply to the Medical Aid and Dying it applies to every aspect of health care, which of course, becomes more complex and treacherous as people's health becomes more complicated and their conditions become more dire, and their needs increase. Hospice, yes it's a wonderful concept, and it's a wonderful benefit, but in many cases, it's not enough. Palliative Care, in theory, great concept, we need more Palliative Care physicians and teams and that kind of an approach, but in many cases, it's not enough. What we are trying to do is figure out how to be enough. How people can get enough in every scenario. We are specifically here talking about Medical Aid and Dying. In California, the actual law is called The End of Life Option Act. It was actually signed into law by Governor Brown in October 2015, and it became effective June 9th, 2016. I'll note that just yesterday the Governor of Hawaii signed the bill to make Medical Aid and Dying legal in Hawaii. The actual process will begin January 1st, 2019. There is a period of time, like there was in California, a waiting period, while they're getting all the processes in place and the legal issues dealt with. Elizabeth: Which you would think, that would be the time frame that health care intuitions would establish policies, would determine what they were going to do and how they were going to help. Dr. Bob: One would think. Elizabeth: You would think. Dr. Bob: Didn't happen here. Elizabeth: That didn't happen here. Dr. Bob: So maybe Hawaii will learn from what happened in California recently when all of a sudden June 9th comes, and still nobody knows what to do. What we are becoming actually, is a resource for people throughout California. Because we have been through this so many times now and we have such experience, we know where the obstacles are, we know where this landscape can be a bit treacherous. But, if you understand how to navigate it doesn't have to be. Elizabeth: We have become a resource not just for individuals who are interested in participating or who want to find out if they qualify but for other healthcare institutions who are trying to figure out how best to support their patients and their loved ones. TO give them without the experience that they need without having the experience of knowing what this looks like. Dr. Bob: Yup. Training hospice agencies. Training medical groups. At the heart of it, we just want to make sure that people get what they deserve, what they need and what they deserve and what is their legal right. If we know that there is somebody who can have an easier more supported, more peaceful death, we understand how incredibly valuable that is, not just for the patient but for the family. For the loved ones that are going to go on. So let's get into some of the meat of this. I'm going to ask you; we can kind of trade-off. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: I'll ask you a question. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: You ask me a question. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: All right. If you don't know the answer, I'd be very surprised. In general who requests General Aid and Dying? Elizabeth: A lot of the calls we get are from people who qualify. So I don't know if you wanna go over the qualifications... Dr. Bob: We will. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: That's the next question. Who is eligible. Elizabeth: Sorry. A lot of the people who call are individuals who are looking to see if they qualify and want to know what the process is. There are people who are family members of ill and struggling individuals, who wanna support them in getting the resources they might need. There are some people who just want the information. There are some people who desperately need immediate support and attention. Dr. Bob: Do you find, cause you get a lot of these calls initially, do you find that it's more often the patient looking for the information or is it usually a family member? Elizabeth: It's 50/50. Dr. Bob: Oh 50/50. Elizabeth: I think it depends a lot on where the patient is in the process and how supportive the family members are. Some people have extremely supportive family members who are willing to make all the phone calls and find all the resources and put in all the legwork. Some people don't, and they end up on their own trying to figure out what to do and how to do it. There are some people who are too sick to put in the energy to make 15 phone calls and talk to 15 different doctor's offices to find out what the process is. A lot of people start looking for information and hit wall, after wall, after wall. They don't even get to have a conversation about what this could look like, much less find someone who is willing to support them in it. Dr. Bob: Great, thank you. So who is eligible? Who does this law apply to? That's pretty straightforward, at least in appearance. An adult 18 or older. A resident of California. Who is competent to make decisions. Has a terminal illness. Is able to request, from an attending physician, the medication that if taken, will end their life. Pretty much 100% of the time. The individual has to make two requests, face to face with the attending physician and those requests need to be at least 15 days apart. If somebody makes an initial request to meet and I determine that they are a resident of California, they are an adult, they are competent, and they have a medical condition that is deemed terminal (I'll talk more about what that means) if I see them on the 1st, the 2nd request can happen on the 16th. It can't happen any sooner. The law requires a 15 day waiting period. That can be a challenge for some people, and we will talk a bit about that as well. In addition to the two requests of the attending physician, the person needs to have a consulting physician who concurs that they have a terminal illness and that they are competent to make decisions and the consulting physician meets with them, makes a determination and signs a form. The patient also signs a written request form that is essentially a written version of the verbal request and they sign that and have two people witness it. That's the process. Once that's completed, the attending physician can submit a prescription if the patient requests it at that time to the pharmacy. Certain pharmacies are willing to provide these medications, and many aren't. But, the physician submits the prescription to the pharmacy, and when the patient wants to have the prescription filled, they request that the pharmacy fill it and the pharmacy will make arrangements to have it delivered to the patient. The prescription can stay at the pharmacy for a period of time without getting filled, or it can be filled and be brought to the patient, and at that point, the patient can choose to take it or not. The patient needs to be able to ingest it on their own. They have to be able to drink the medication, it's mixed into a liquid form. They need to be able to drink five to six ounces of liquid, and it can be through a glass or through a straw. If the patient can't swallow, but they have a tube-like either a gastric tube or a feeding tube as long as they can push the medication through the tube, then they are eligible. The law states that no one can forcibly make the patient take it. They have to be doing it on their own volition, willingly. Okay. So, that's pretty much the process. Is there anything that I left out? What is a terminal illness? That is a question that is often asked. For this purpose, a terminal illness is a condition that is likely or will likely end that person's life in six months if the condition runs its natural course. Most of the patients that we see requesting Medical Aid and Dying have cancer. They have cancer that is considered terminal. Meaning there is no cure any longer. It's either metastasized, or it involves structures that are so critical that will cure them. In most cases, there is no treatment that will allow them to live with a meaningful quality of life, past six months. Of course, it's difficult to say to the day, when somebody is going to die, but there has to be a reasonable expectation that condition can end their life within six months. We also see a number of people with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. That's a particularly sensitive scenario because those people lose their ability to function, they lose their motor function, and as it gets progressively, further along, they lose their ability to swallow. They can lose their ability to speak and breathe. The time frame of that condition can be highly variable. We see people with advanced heart disease, congestive heart failure, advanced lung disease other neurologic diseases. Elizabeth: The gamut. Dr. Bob: We see the gamut, but those are the majority. We've talked about who's requesting this for the most part, who's eligible? A patient who is competent has a terminal diagnosis and is an adult resident of California. We talked about the requirements, what's the process. Let's talk a little bit about the challenges that we've identified or that other people have identified. At the very beginning of this process, I became aware that the law was going to begin taking effect just a few months after I started my medical practice at Integrated MD Care and I figured great this is progressive. We are kind of like Oregon, we are going to have this option available, and I felt like it was the right thing. I've always felt like people should have more control and be able to be more self-determining. Especially at end of life. Who's life is it? Right? Who are we to tell somebody that they have to stay alive longer than they want to. That never made sense to me. I think if you're not in this world of caring for people at end of life or you haven't had an experience with your family. Most people figure when people are dying they get taken care of adequately. Hospice comes in, and they take care of things. IN some cases that's true. In many cases, it is the furthest thing from the truth. People struggle and suffer. Patients struggle and suffer, families suffer and if we have another option, if we have other options available wouldn't we be giving them credence? My answer is yes, we should. So when the law was coming into effect, I figured physicians would be willing to support patients because it's the right thing. I just assumed people would go to their doctors and say 'we now have this law, can you help me' and the doctors would say 'of course.' It didn't quite work out that way. Now I understand why I see it more clearly. People started calling me to ask for my support, and I started meeting with them and learning about what they were going through and learning about all of the struggles they've had through their illness and trying to get support with what is now their legal right and they were getting turned away by doctor, after doctor, after doctor. I learned what I needed to learn about the process and I started supporting a few patients here and there. As time went on, I saw A)what an incredibly beautiful, beautiful process it is. What an extraordinary peaceful end of life we could help people achieve and the impact that it has on the families was so incredibly profound that I know that this was something that I needed to continue supporting. With the hope that other physicians would come on board and there wouldn't be such a wasteland and so much struggle because I can only take care of some many people. Well, it's a year and a half later, and I do think things have- Elizabeth: Improved. Improved some. Some of the hospital systems in San Diego certainly, have developed policies and process to support patients through the Aid and Dying, sometimes it can still be laborious and cumbersome, and hiccups occur that create great challenges and struggles. But what we've developed is a process that is so streamlined. Like Elizabeth mentions, we've come across so many of these obstacles and these issues that couldn't have really been anticipated. That have to do with hospice agencies not wanting to be supportive. Of not being able o find a consulting physician for various reasons. Coroners and medical examiners not understanding anything about this process. So we've had to be educating them to make sure that the police don't show up at somebodies house in the middle of the night. It's become a real passion for both of us and our whole team. To be able to do this and to be able to do this really well, as well as it could possibly be done. More doctors are coming on board and being open to this. I'll tell yeah, I'm not so sure that's the right thing, and we have thoughts about that. I've been talking a lot, so I wanna sit back and let you talk, take a sip of my coffee and I wanna hear your thoughts on- Elizabeth: Other doctors. Dr. Bob: Other doctors and how they perceive this. Why we may not just want every doctor- Elizabeth: Doing it. Dr. Bob: Doing it. Elizabeth: I think it's really important that other doctors be open to it. Especially open to the conversations. I think one of the things that has been the most important for me is to help people start those conversations with their doctors, with their families, with other healthcare providers. A lot of the doctors are restricted by policies where they work or by moral objections or just by not really being familiar and being concerned that they might misstep. I think that having doctors come on board first in terms of conversations is fantastic. Then also learning the process is important. As simple as it is in the way that you described it it's more complex than that. There are a lot of small details, paperwork, and requirements. Things have to be done a certain way in order to be compliant with the law. There are aspects of supporting the family. This is a very unique experience. If you as a physician don't have time to have longer conversations with patients and families, if you don't have time to provide anticipatory support and relief for the grieving process or for the dying process, it can be a struggle for the patients and families to go through this even if they have the legal support that they need. I think that that's one of the things you were referring to in terms of why it's not necessarily good for everybody to come on board. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Because if they say that they will support a patient and be their attending physician through this process, they could start the process and then come across some of these hurdles that they don't know what to do with and it could completely derail the process. It's too critical when patients finally feel that they now have this option available to them, that they see the light at the end of the tunnel, every little misstep and every little delay, is- Elizabeth: Excruciating. Dr. Bob: Excruciating. We see that happening over and over again. So when people find us and we assure them, we will help you get through this without any more hiccups, without anything getting derailed, they are very cynical. We tell them- Elizabeth: They've been so many doctors, they've been to doctors who've said... Dr. Bob: They've been screwed, they've... Elizabeth: We will help you, and they haven't gotten the help that they need. Dr. Bob: There is nothing that's more painful for somebody, an individual or a family member who's finally come around to wanting to support mom or dad or husband or a wife or a child and then to have it be taken away from them or threatened. We make ourselves available. There are times when we say we are available for you anytime, day or night; you can contact us. They start calling us; I've gotten calls at 2 in the morning from somebody just to say I just wanted to make sure you were really there. That you really would respond. They can't wait to get to the endpoint. Not even because they are ready to take the medication but because they are ready to have the peace of mind and the security of knowing that they have an easy out, rather than have to struggle to the bitter end. Elizabeth: This is really about empowering the patient and the family. This is all about providing them with the opportunity to do what they want to do with their life. To live it the way they want to live it and to end it the way they want to end it. Not in a way that is incongruent with their moral, ethical, spiritual life choices. In a way that supports the way that they've lived, the principals they've lived by and the things that matter to them. I would also say that the difficulties that doctors have had and the struggles that we've had in working with other physicians it's not because they don't care about their patients. It's not because they don't want the best thing for them. Maybe they disagree with what the best thing is, or maybe they feel that they are not able to provide sufficient support. There are a lot of really good doctors who aren't able, for whatever reason, to do this. Dr. Bob: That's a great point. I think a part of it is that sometimes they work for organizations that won't allow them to, and that happens often. Then they don't understand the process; they are intimidated by it. They don't want to mess it up. And, they are so busy that they feel like it's going to require too much time out of their day. Elizabeth: Which it does. Dr. Bob: Which it can, and they don't have any way to bill for that. They feel like they are going to be doing everybody a disservice. But unfortunately, that often leads to the patients being in this state of limbo and not knowing where to turn. Elizabeth: Thinking that they maybe they have started in the process and Dr. Bob: Not, we have certainly seen that. Elizabeth: Discovering later that they haven't. Dr. Bob: So we are going to close it down here shortly. One of the things, and you spoke about empowerment, and how really important that is, both for the patients and for the families. One thing that I've recognized, so now I've assessed and supported well over a hundred patients through this process. I've been with many of these people when they've taken the medication and died. So, I've seen how beautiful and peaceful it is. It literally in most cases, a lot of times there's laughter and just a feeling of incredible love and connection that occurs with the patient and the family in the moments leading up to that. Even after they have ingest the medication we have people who are expressing such deep gratitude and love and even laughing during the time because they are getting freed. They are not afraid, they are almost rushing towards this because it's going to free them. Most of the time they fall asleep within a matter of minutes and die peacefully within 20 to 30 minutes. Sometimes sooner. Occasionally a bit longer. But, if anyone is wondering if there is struggle or pain or flopping around in the death throws. None of that. This is truly...this is how I want to go when it's my time. The one thing that seems very consistent with the patients that I've care for through this process is, they have a physical condition that is ravaging their bodies. Their bodies are decaying, they are declining, they are not functioning. Their bodies are no longer serving them. But their spirit, is still strong. They have to be competent to be able to make this decision. Most of the time they are so determined to be in control of what happens to them, their spirit has always been strong. They have lost control because their bodies no longer function and that is irreconcilable for them. They cannot reconcile this strong spirit in a body that is no longer serving them and that is only going to continue getting worse. That's the other important part of this. These are people who are dying, they are not taking this medication because they are tired of living. They are taking this medication because they are dying and they don't see any reason to allow their death to be more prolonged and more painful, than it needs to be. They are empowered, and we are empowering people to live fully until their last moments and to die peacefully. My last little note here is, why do we do this? Well, that's why we do this. Elizabeth: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Because people deserve the absolute best most peaceful, most loving, death. This is in many cases, the only way to achieve that. I think we are going kinda wrap it up. We obviously are passionate about this topic. We are passionate about wanting to share the realities of it. We don't want there to be confusion, misconceptions, misunderstandings. Aid and Dying is here; it's not going away. It's going to continue to expand throughout our country. We are going to get to a place where everybody has the right to determine when their life should end peacefully when they're dying. I'm very happy and proud to be on the forefront of this. I know it's controversial, I imagine there are people who think that I'm evil and I'm okay with that because I know. I see the gratitude that we get from so many patients and families. When we go out and speak to groups about this the vast majority of people are so supportive and Elizabeth: Sort of relieved, even the professionals are so relieved. We have a patient, we have been helping another doctor support that patient, and he's so relieved and so friendly and so grateful just to be able to provide the support that he wouldn't otherwise be able to provide. It's not just the patients; it's everybody we engage on this, it's really amazing. Dr. Bob: Thank you. It really is an honor to watch you engage with the patients and families and to be as supportive of what we're doing. It's remarkable. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: We will talk about some of the options that people have when they don't qualify for Aid and Dying because there are other options. We wanted to address some of those options as well but not on this live; we'll do that maybe next time. Thanks for tuning in, have an awesome day, and we will see you soon, take care. Photo Credit: CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION/WIKIMEDIA COMMONS PUBLIC DOMAIN
Jami Shapiro helps seniors transition from homes with her company Silver Linings Transitions. Learn why she is so passionate about this work and how she can help you or your loved ones. Contact Silver Linings Transitions Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Jami Shapiro: Thanks for having me. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's great to have you here. Jami Shapiro: This is exciting. I was really looking forward to this conversation, so I'm glad to be here. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Why is that? Jami Shapiro: Well, death and what you do, it has just really become ... I guess I should describe what it is that I do so that it can set the stage for people. Dr. Bob: Sounds good. Jami Shapiro: Okay. I own a company, as you mentioned, called Silver Linings Transitions and we started as a senior move management company, which is actually part of a National Association called The National Association of Senior Move Management, and I have to step it back a little bit because about 13 years ago, I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer, and I was 34 years old, and it was life-changing for me to have to wait on the diagnosis and at the same time, one of my closest friends died of ovarian cancer. When you look at cancer as a 34-year old, you realized, "Oh, this is borrowed time." A friend of mine who had cancer as a freshman college said that getting cancer was like getting a front row seat to life. Dr. Bob: Wow. Jami Shapiro: Right. I started to look at my own life, and I knew that what I was doing wasn't fulfilling for me. I ended up moving to San Diego from Florida with my now ex-husband, when he took a dean position out here, and it was an opportunity for me to explore what it was that I wanted to do and the first job that I had was actually working at a cancer foundation started by a family who had lost their daughter at 39 to gastroesophageal cancer stage four, and no one knew because we weren't talking about it or what the symptoms were. I loved that they took their tragedy and they turned it into something, which was really very close to who I was. Around the time that I needed to put my daughter into private school, a friend of mine approached me about starting a business selling things for seniors on eBay. That was how we were going to start. Then while she was researching that, we found out about The National Association and they were going to be having their conference in San Diego two months later, and went to that conference, and that was that light bulb that everybody hopes to get, and it was like, "This is what I'm meant to do," and the people that do the work that I do, which is helping seniors when they're transitioning from their homes. It can be the home they've been in for 60 years. It can be the condo that they've moved into, but going into a senior community typically or sometimes into a smaller space is actually very ... It's a tough transition. It's medically identified as relocation stress syndrome, and they say that it is the most difficult transition a person will make in their lifetime. I don't know compared to what you're helping them transition through, but it's tough. Dr. Bob: It's significant. Jami Shapiro: It's significant. Dr. Bob: It's significant, and it's probably under-addressed and under-recognized in general. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Right. Then, what their staff represents to them. That's what we're doing is we're helping them go through the mementos of their lives, so I started it that way with a partner. Then, things happen the way life does, and my partner ended up going to work with her husband because he had actually started a business as well. Then, I had to look at how am I going to do this business by myself because I planned on having a partner. I've got three children. Anyway, I ended up shortly after that, putting something on Facebook that I was looking for help because I'm actually as great as my company is, and you have to be very organized to do the work that we do, but I'm not organized. I knew I had to find somebody that was. Initially, I was looking for a partner, couldn't find the right partner. Then, I put something on Facebook in a group of women that I, in San Elijo Hills, we have a little women's site. I posted something, and the first person that responded to me was a woman who had been a stay at home mom for 18 years, and she couldn't find anyone that would hire her. That was when the second epiphany happened, and that was women when they're transitioning back into the workforce whether they're going through a divorce or their kids are going to school, it's tough for women to compete with the younger women and then to have the flexibility, so that became my team and that was women transitioning back into the workforce. Then, right after that, I started, my marriage ended. It was like I'm starting a business simultaneously and going through a divorce. Then, I realized that women including me, if we walk away from careers and even though I worked, we didn't find my retirement. We find it his, and even though I'm getting half of his retirement, I'm starting at a lower level than he is. Then, you've got the issue of benefits. My long-term objective is actually to help the seniors and the other clients because we now help divorcing clients. We help when there's a death, and we go into the home, but it's also to provide meaningful work for women, a platform that will give them to get the confidence to get back up into the workforce, but I see this really ... In my vision, it's national. That's where I'm going. Dr. Bob: That's awesome. That's really great. It's like a trifecta. You're helping several populations that clearly have needs. Many of those needs are unmet, and you're doing it from a place not ... It sounds like, not necessarily because you want to be a billionaire, but because you want to have meaningful work. You want your life to mean something, and you were fortunate to have that wake-up call at 34 when you realized that, "Wow. There really is a limit to all of this," and you needed to do something now. That's awesome. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. Dr. Bob: That's pretty wonderful. Jami Shapiro: Well, that's actually why I called the company Silver Linings Transitions because I would never have gotten to that place if I haven't had that experience. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, I love that. It really resonates with me because for me, I've been accused of being an eternal optimist and even in the phase of situations where it really seems like it wouldn't be the appropriate response, I just have this sense of optimism that things are going to work out and I always look for the silver linings, and I talked about that because there always is one. Jami Shapiro: You're absolutely right. There's always a lesson to be learned. Dr. Bob: Yeah. No question about it because we can't control what happens in life. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. That's exactly right. Dr. Bob: What we can control is our response to it. Jami Shapiro: I just wrote a blog about that yesterday actually, and it ended exactly that same way. Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Good for you. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. Dr. Bob: I love the fact that ... We talked about this before we started recording that there's definitely some similarities and alignment in our ... Not just our chosen, I guess career path. Jami Shapiro: And who we're serving, right? Dr. Bob: And who we're serving, but I think what we're trying to accomplish. Jami Shapiro: Our why? I think we both talked about the fact that we both feel like this is a calling. Yeah. I'm also an eternal optimist and I'm so grateful actually that I am because I have a lot of family members with depression, and I know that it's really difficult, and I feel like if I can talk about God because that's really helped me with everything that's gone on is to know that He's given me these talents and there's some reason that I have them, and there's something I'm supposed to do with them. Dr. Bob: Yeah. If you didn't, well, then you wouldn't be fulfilling your reason for being here. Jami Shapiro: That's exactly right. That's right. Dr. Bob: Right? It's so cool because there's ... In your work as well and in mine, we come across people who are in really difficult circumstances often, and they're going through challenges, and it's fascinating to see how people respond to those challenges because I can be talking with a person who's in their 80s, 90s or over 100 who's struggling, and looking at uncertain future, but likely challenging, but they don't feel victimized. They still see the positives in life, and they still feel grateful for what they've had and what life has been for them, and even what's coming. Jami Shapiro: That's right. What they can do. Right. We need to identify what it is we still can do. Dr. Bob: There's such an opportunity, I think, we're not a psychologist. We're not a psychiatrist. We're not the therapist, but in everything that we do, I think there's an opportunity to help to share this sense of the possibilities. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Right? That there is a silver lining to everything. Sometimes people don't want to hear that in the moment, but I think representing that, living it by example is very important, and it sounds to me like you're doing that. Jami Shapiro: Right. It's interesting because I do get to work with seniors when they're going through the mementos of their life as I mentioned, and so we actually ... I have a partner, Bryan Devore, he's a realtor, and we worked together now. He does his own Silver Linings Transitions, but most people who are selling a home ... Well, everyone selling a home will have to move, and a lot of the clients that we come across are seniors who will also need to sell their homes, so we offer that as a bundled service, but we ended up working with four clients together last year. Two of them embraced moving into a senior community. One of them had his name tag on when we met him, and he was excited about going, and he was going to have his meals there, and the other woman put herself on a waiting list and brought my company in, so we could get her ready for that transition, and those two are thriving. Then, there were two situations where we were called in, and they were kicking and screaming going there, both had put deposits down, but neither one of them wanted to be there. Both of them pass within a month of moving, and it just shows like you're right. You don't have a choice in a matter. The only choice you have is your response to it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's powerful. Jami Shapiro: We started a TV show actually that we're going to start filming in March, and I'm really excited about showing people what senior community really is and following people who are transitioning into those changes. Dr. Bob: The communities that you're helping people transition to, is it any size? It can be a large assisted living or independent living or small residential care homes? Jami Shapiro: Sure. We've even done an 8,500 square foot ranch in Santa Fe home into a smaller three bedroom house. Anytime there's a downsize and we actually ... I don't want to plug the business because that's something the conversation is about. Dr. Bob: Please do. You're plugging something that's needed, and valuable. Jami Shapiro: We're working with a family now, and there's a little bit of health stuff going on and they are needing to move out of their son's school because there are some issues going on and there are some boundary changes, and so my team is going in and getting the home organized and helping them move because people would say, "Well, do you have to be a senior?" I said, "No. We don't discriminate based on age." We really help, and Bryan is selling the home for them, and as I mentioned, if he sells their home, then he provides Silver Linings Transitions free for our clients. We actually have a website called packedforfree.com, and we actually created a little thing that looks like a Reese's because what's the best combination in the world? Chocolate and peanut butter and next is selling your home and moving. Dr. Bob: Right. Helping someone transition. Jami Shapiro: Right? Move services. Exactly. Dr. Bob: Well, I just moved a little over a month ago, and we're pretty good at moving. We moved a number of times. I think we just changed. Jami Shapiro: Me, too. Me, too. Dr. Bob: ...When I was looking at the website, and the idea that really appealed to me is you get up in the morning, you leave your bed unmade, you go out, you enjoy your day, you go back to your new place, and everything's in place. The idea of that was just like incredibly overwhelming to me. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. For us ... Dr. Bob: I wish I would have known about you. Jami Shapiro: You know what? I wish that every time somebody said that, I got a dollar because I'd be a wealthy woman. Dr. Bob: I know. Me too. Yeah. No doubt about it. Jami Shapiro: Yeah, exactly. Dr. Bob: For me, and probably for you too, it really makes me sad when I hear somebody say, "I wish we had known about you when my mom was ill, or a few months ago when we were going through these challenges." Jami Shapiro: Right. I think one of the things that also we are different than a moving company because the women that I'm hiring are so compassionate, and it's funny. Most of them have found Silver Linings Transitions. One of them when I was first starting the business, and I wanted to take credit cards, I had to have my ... My home was where I was going to work out of the company or work, and she came in to look at my home and make sure I was legitimate, and we've got into a conversation and her father had just passed away, and she was helping her mother go through all of his belongings, and she's actually my head manager now. That's how she found me coming into my kitchen, and then I have another woman whose husband was on jury duty, and he happened to hear somebody talking about the company, and she approached me. People are coming because I think they feel that calling too, and I think it's so evident when our clients work with us that we are just really compassionate and ... Dr. Bob: That's what they want. That's what people want. Jami Shapiro: Yes. Dr. Bob: They don't want someone who is just going to come in and handle the transaction. Jami Shapiro: Right. They would be heard. Dr. Bob: At this day, for some people, yes, it's about cost, and they have to be conscientious about that, but I think for more people at that stage of life, it's about trust, knowing that they and their things are in good hands and that it goes smoothly. Similarly, I think there's alignment there as well that there's such a ... The norm is that things don't go smoothly. The typical situation is people struggle. They try to find the resources, and they're searching, and they're getting recommendations and they piecemeal it together. To be able to say that anxiety, time, frustration by having a teen that they can really trust and feel good about working makes all the difference in the world. Jami Shapiro: Right. I noticed that about your team as well, and it's having a comprehensive solution. I know when I had thyroid cancer actually, I was very fortunate that I lived in Jacksonville, Florida and there was a Mayo Clinic, and the leading person who dealt with thyroid cancer endocrinologist happened to be in Jacksonville. Then, it ended up that we couldn't go because the insurance have that goes. Dealing with Mayo where everything was in one place, and as a patient, it was so comforting versus them having to leave that system and then have to exactly piecemeal it together. There's nothing worse than going through something really tough, and then having to manage all the pieces too. Dr. Bob: Right. The situation itself is stressful, and then to add on top of that all the frustration that comes with trying to get the right support. Jami Shapiro: Right. Dr. Bob: The healthcare system is the prime example of that, which is why we exist. I would be very happy if there was no need for us. Jami Shapiro: Oh, no death. I say [crosstalk 00:15:34]. Dr. Bob: Well, I would be wonder ... People were going to die, right? Jami Shapiro: Yes. [crosstalk 00:15:39]. Dr. Bob: We're not going to stop that, but if everybody has the right support and the right guidance. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Because the medical system acts like death is not going to happen. They don't talk about death. Jami Shapiro: Right. I'm not supposed to talk about it either. I was telling you we go out and we give talks. The talk that I've done lately is, "Do you own your stuff or does your stuff own you?" Because so many people are prisoners to these rooms, they're not even living in because their stuff is there. They're not even enjoying their stuff, and that's a whole conversation that I still want to address, but when I talked about it, and we're talking about downsizing and going through the mementos of their life, I've been told not to talk about death. We want to bury our heads in the sand. I actually went to ... An attorney was giving a talk on advance directives, and he said that only 10% of people even have a discussion with their spouse about what their wishes are. It's just like we just want to bury our head in the sand. Dr. Bob: Yes, we do, but we're trying to do something about that. Right? Jami Shapiro: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Bob: And people like us, which is why we're having this conversation, which is why people like us who, for some reason, somehow had become comfortable with the concept. It's so important for us to be out there leading by example and encouraging the conversations. I think that there's a shift happening. There's a movement underway, the death cap phase, and maybe I have a warped sense of things just because I'm so immersed in that. Jami Shapiro: Yes. Dr. Bob: But I do get the sense that when I'm out speaking with people, and they learn what I do, it opens up this flood sometimes of wanting to talk about the experiences they've had. You and your team find yourselves in situations where you're having intimate conversations, and people are in a vulnerable time, so you're probably experiencing some of this as well. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: I'm amazed how freely people talk about the experiences that they've had in their life around death of a relative or a friend, and I would say it's probably equally divided between people who talk about how difficult and challenging it was and their frustration with the system and fear about what might happen next time, somebody that they love or they become ill, but there's another group of people who want to share what an incredibly transformational experience it was because they somehow found the resources they needed. They had a great hospice team. They have advocates, and so it seems so ... The goal really seems to be to try to get those people who have had those scary, challenging, frustrating, horrific experiences to not have to deal with that but to be able to be in that other camp where it is a beautiful, peaceful transformational experience. Jami Shapiro: Right. You said something that you're noticing, and you think it's because of the work that you're doing, but I also am ... I've sort of become, I would say more spiritual, and sort of realizing a collective soul now. I actually had read back in my 20s the book, "Many Lives, Many Masters," by Brian Weiss, and ended up having a conversation with somebody about Akashic records, which is probably something I can't even interest, but I reread the book now in my 40s, and so, now I see this time on earth, they call it earth school, which ties back into the whole silver linings thing, which is what lessons is my soul supposed to learn? That has given me some peace because I'm actually one of those people whose always been really afraid of death too and it was one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you because it's really addressing something that I myself not wanted to talk about. As I'm starting this business and realizing that for me anyway, and I would say most people, we are going to leave this earth. There's no debate. We both know, and we're on the same side of the coin, that's going to happen, but what's your legacy going to be? What is it that you're going to have done? What's your imprint? I think when you are ... [inaudible 00:20:03] the word "aligned," but it is, when you are aligned, when you are listening to that voice or however comes to you, meditation or the light bulb moment, then you realize you're part of something bigger. Dr. Bob: That has brought you more peace? Jami Shapiro: It has. It has. Now, I'm reading "Journey of Souls," and that one's a little bit more challenging for me. I read the Brian Weiss one in a day, and this one, I've been struggling with, but it talks about our souls and the way that our souls evolve and that some souls don't even come back to earth, and that they are so ... They love where they are, so that gives me peace. Actually, when I was in my 20s, I worked with a couple ... I was in a different line of work, but they lost their adult sons, both of them within a period of two years, and I told them about this book. Then actually, recently, I was in yoga, and I was really getting frustrated because I wanted to get into the class and there was a woman, and she was talking to the woman that was checking everybody in, and, "Come on, come on, come on." Then, the one woman said, "I've been thinking about you. My daughter passed away last week." Then, it was just like ... That changed where I was at completely, and I told her about the book because for me, just thinking that this isn't a final conversation, that this isn't a final place and I remember too like that whole class, I felt called to hug her. I just needed to hug her. That's not something I'm just going to like, "Hey yo." Then, I walked up, and I said, "I just have to. Is it okay?" It just was such a ... That collectiveness that we are this one thing. Dr. Bob: You could sense that there was a bond of some sort or you wanted to bring her some comfort? Jami Shapiro: Right. Right. Yeah. Dr. Bob: It's fascinating, and I love where you're going. I love this path that you're on. Do you bring this into ... Obviously, it influences everything in your life and your work. Do you incorporate this into the relationships with your clients and your team? Jami Shapiro: Yes. That is a great question. Actually, when we have had clients and the tears start to come because they do, and I'll say to them, "I was diagnosed with cancer at 34." The idea of being a senior when you're 34 years old, and you don't know ... At that point, I didn't know that I have thyroid cancer. Actually, they call it "the good cancer," but I had to wait 10 days for my pathology to come back to even know that that's what it was, so I had that opportunity to look at my life and my mortality. I say to my clients, "You're so lucky because whatever life threw at you, you get to be here making these decisions. Let's own it." Kind of embracing going into a senior community like starting a new school or I remember we had a client, and she had a ton of hats. Some of these hats had never been worn. They still have the tags on them, and we're going through her belongings and trying to figure out what's going to fit. I said, "Why don't you take the hat? Somebody known as the crazy hat lady? You can change it." It is just like you said back in the beginning; it's attitude. I think when I can say to them, "I faced it, and you're so lucky to be here." That really turns it around for them. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, we have a shared experience there as well. Yours was a little bit more intensive, but the day before my 50th birthday, which was a little over five years ago, I got a phone call from a doctor telling me that I have prostate cancer because I've been having issues and MRI was done. A month later, it turned out that we found out that that was not correct, but I spent a month with this belief that I have a fairly aggressive form of cancer, and it changed things for me. I already felt like I had a fairly healthy outlook on life, but at that point, I just saw things differently. I started seeing things through a little bit of a different lens, and I realized it's okay. That was a big piece for me. I realized that no matter what happens, no matter what life threw at me, it was going to be okay. I was prepared. I had pretty much said to those I love and those in my life what I want them to know. I didn't feel like I had any relationships that needed to be fixed, which was wonderful. I think it was a gift, but I would love for people to be able to have that gift without having to have that diagnosis or that fear of the diagnosis. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely, right. Dr. Bob: To be able to have something that allows them to do ... Just to check in to do a big-time check in with where they are, and essentially answer the question, "Are you ready?" If you're not, what do you need to do to be ready? Jami Shapiro: Right. Dr. Bob: Get on it. Jami Shapiro: Right. Absolutely. I also see that too as the brick that was turning your path because you're dealing with people when they're going through this time, and when you're in that space, I think it gives you ... I think you're already an amazingly empathetic and compassionate, but now maybe a little more empathetic because you sat there. Dr. Bob: Then, subsequently in the last few years, both my parents going through terminal lung cancer and dying in my presence and my family's presence has added to that. We don't want everyone to have to go through these personal experiences in order to get the lessons, which is I think partly why we're putting ourselves out there and creating opportunities for other like-minded folks to come in and provide support and guidance. Jami Shapiro: Right. Yeah. Sure. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You've had a number of experiences that have influenced your journey and your path and kind of the attribute. I know that you've also experienced death in your life. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, my grandmother was, I think the person that I was closest to in the entire world, and I'm actually wearing her pin today because I'm going to be starting filming on this show and I wanted to have her a part of her with me, and I will sense her sometimes, not necessarily like feeling her, but finding a letter that she wrote that was exactly what I needed to read in that moment or on my 47th birthday, I was going through a divorce. I just had a breakup with the boyfriend, and I was not expecting much of the day because no one to throw a party for me, and I was an only child. My birthday is a big deal. When you have cancer too, you need to celebrate birthdays, but I ended up totally by fluke, I had my three daughters. It was my birthday, so nobody could say no. I'm going to sit in my bed with me, and we're going to look through this box and mementos. I have had this box and some of the things in it for years, but there was a jewelry pouch that had been my grandmother's, and she had these pins that I knew about, and I knew that her wedding ring was there, but there was a little brown pouch, and it was flat. It was a felt pouch and had I not been a senior move manager, I would have tossed the pouch, but something made me put my finger inside, and I found a diamond earring. Then, I couldn't find the other one, and I was searching the whole box, and then I put my finger back in and found the other earring. I'm wearing them. It was funny too because I had gotten this second holes when I was 16 years old and didn't want to wear them, and I was thinking, "Maybe I should get a small earring." Really, this is so true. Then, I found my grandmother's earrings and have been wearing them every day since because I think she meant for me to find them. Dr. Bob: Yes, absolutely. Jami Shapiro: That's my experience with death. I wasn't there when she passed, but it's interesting because she ended up dying from a pulmonary embolism, and I got a call that she had passed, and my husband at the time was going to drive me to the hospital, and my daughter was two months old at the time, and we got stuck in traffic. I needed to get there, and so I got out of the car, and I ran into her room, and she was still there. That was the only time I've ever been close to anybody who had died, and part of me wishes that I had been there to hear that last breath that I hear so peaceful. I've not experienced that, so it's just me seeing this woman that I loved laying there, and I couldn't touch her. Still, it scared me. Dr. Bob: Did you feel like she was no longer there? Did you feel like her spirit, her soul had left the body at that point? Jami Shapiro: Yeah, I didn't sense her. I will say my mom would feel her presence a lot because my mom was actually there when she was dying, and it was a very traumatic death because she was gasping for air, and it really was with my mom and still is. I'm sure I don't even like to talk about it with her because it brings up that for her, but I didn't. I don't feel her the way people talk about feeling energy or I don't feel her, but I know that she's looking out for me because of these little things that keep happening. There are so many synchronicities in my life that are just ... I have no other way to describe them. Part of this is her, but just also I don't know. God is just leading this path. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I think many people feel that. They feel the synchronicities. They feel the signs, messages, but you need to be looking for them, right? Jami Shapiro: Oh, you absolutely have to be open to it. Dr. Bob: I think if you're not, you can just keep blinders on and if that's the case, I guess you could still be hit over the side of the head with a two by four sign. Jami Shapiro: Or cancer diagnosis. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Exactly. Maybe being aware and receptive and looking for those things, maybe that's a health benefit. Jami Shapiro: Sure. Dr. Bob: If you're getting what you need, maybe you're not going to get the things that you don't want because you're not paying attention. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. That's another interesting thing that you brought up. There's another book. I do a lot of reading a lot, and there was a book by Jen Sincero called, "You Are a Badass," and just very inspired by ... I see on your bookshelf, "Think and Grow Rich," but she has an exercise where she says, "For the next minutes spend, look at everything you can find that's right. Count as many things that you can find that are red." You spend a minute counting red, and then she says, "What do you see that was yellow?" Right? We are going to see what we're looking for. Dr. Bob: What we're paying attention to. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Right. If you look at my bookshelf, when I moved, I took some of the books from home and brought them here. "Think and Grow Rich" could be next to "Many Lives, Many Masters." I have a whole array. I guess I want people to know how to find ... I want people who are potentially going through these transitions or know people who are going through transitions and looking for support. Tell me who are the people who are your ideal clients who really need you, and what's the best way for them to get a hold of you? Jami Shapiro: I feel like my answer is going to make me sound like a transition queen, but as I mentioned ... Dr. Bob: I think you are becoming the transition queen. Jami Shapiro: As I mentioned, Silver Linings Transitions is my company that we started as a senior move management company, and then going through my own divorce and I don't know if I shared it in the interview, but I was having a consultation because my ex and I ... Really, it was a pretty amicable divorce as these things go, but we got to a point where we didn't agree on the house and the attorney that I consulted with said that if we couldn't come to an agreement, that we were going to go before a judge and the judge was going to make us put our house on the market in 60 days, and I looked at her and I was like a deer caught in headlights and like I said, "You're going through one of the most difficult transitions in your life, and now you have to sell your house?" In the middle of my own consultation, I looked at her, and I said, "Do you think divorcing couples would benefit from the services we're providing for seniors?" We started an offshoot, even though it's still Silver Linings Transitions that goes in, but it's called Divorce Home Solutions because I don't think someone going through a divorce is quite ready to hear Silver Linings. You know what I mean? Then, actually my grandmother passed unexpectedly, and my family and they say weddings and funerals bring out the worst in people, descended on her home, but also had to deal with clearing it out when we were grieving. We were having to deal with the physical part of that while we're planning a funeral and grieving this amazing woman. I tear every time I talk about her. I do. I just love ... Anyway, sorry. I remember the items that I didn't get. You know what I mean? One of the things that we do also is we'll go into a home, and we will do a sentimental auction, and we will help the families rather than fight with each other, you come to an amicable solution and then if Bryan Devore who I worked with sells their home, we'll come and we'll clear the whole thing. We can bring the appraiser in to figure out if there's anything of value. We can help divide the belongings. We ship things to people. We just make that another easy transition, and we started meeting with funeral home directors, and a lot of them will keep our brochure and again, that doesn't say Silver Linings Transitions either, but it's really just us going in, and I'm helping anybody and people say, "Do you have to be a senior?" "No." Moving is one of life's top five stressors. If somebody wanted to find me, they could go to my website, Silver Linings Transitions, not just me because I would not be where I am if I haven't had this amazing team of people who found their calling too, but silverliningstransitions.com, and that would give them an opportunity to reach out. Dr. Bob: Are you looking at ... Thank you. Hopefully, that will bring some peace to folks knowing that this exists. I know that when we have patients who die, this is a very common need that everyone is left with so many things that they have to be worrying about and thinking about, and one of them is, "What do we do with all this stuff? What do we do at the house? What do we do with all these things?" It's really the last thing in the world that they really want to be focusing on. Jami Shapiro: Right, or should be. Dr. Bob: Having a compassionate team of people that come in and support that is phenomenal. Are there other companies that you know of that have the same breath of service that you do? Jami Shapiro: Well, as I mentioned, I am part of the national association, The National Association of Senior Move Managers, and people can find it. It's nasmm.org, and they could find other people who do the work that I do and honestly, anybody who chooses to join an association where we're not regulated is already ... As far as I'm concerned, having to learn how to work with seniors and taking that level of commitment to the work that we do. There are other senior move management companies, but I don't think there are any other Silver Linings Transitions, and again, one of my callings is also to help the women who are transitioning back into the workforce. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Are you looking for additional team members? Jami Shapiro: It's a great question. Yes, I am. We're growing, and we're getting to the point where we don't have enough hands. Dr. Bob: Okay. We'll keep that in mind. Jami Shapiro: Yes. Absolutely. In fact, when I go and talk to divorcing people, especially these women who've been at home and are still getting support, I said, "This is the time to start building your resume in that platform," but of course, my vision is to grow and to not just be in San Diego, and rather than doing franchises where you've got to come up with money to pay for a franchise, I want to build this business where we could go in and train people in different cities and give them the tools that they need to run Silver Linings Transitions out of their cities. That's when I think of the whole "Think and Grow Rich," that's the picture of it that's in my head, and not because I want to grow rich but because I just feel like it has to be done. Dr. Bob: Well, you want to grow, and you want to make sure that your life has meaning, that you want to be the example of creating a legacy and doing something that is clearly going to bring value to people. Like us, the need is huge. The gaps are immense, and we want to try to fill that need in the most, I guess, organic and beautiful way possible. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. I can see, by the way, why you coming into someone's home when they're at this point because there's very calming presence about you, and I love the people I have met in your office and that you have this team that can go in and supports them with massage or acupuncture or ... I saw the aromatherapy, I see have been going right now during the interview. Yeah. If it's going to happen, let's make it as gentle as possible. Dr. Bob: Let's make it beautiful. Right. Jami Shapiro: Exactly. Dr. Bob: Because I think back to your grandmother and that struggle, and I don't know how long that went on for those circumstances, but truly I believe that there is a way aside from a very sudden traumatic type death or an incident that is just unanticipated or unexpected, the vast majority of death's cannon should be peaceful and beautiful, and that's not happening routinely, which means that we're doing something wrong, and we have opportunities to make a huge impact because your mom shouldn't have to live with that, right? Jami Shapiro: Oh, no. No. Dr. Bob: That's my why. People shouldn't have to live with fear when we could be there making sure that every last breath is peaceful. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. I just got chills. Just beautiful work that you're doing. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You as well. Jami Shapiro: Thank you. Dr. Bob: I have a feeling that we're going to be collaborating more and this will not be our last conversation. Jami Shapiro: I have a feeling that might be the case. Dr. Bob: Thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure. Jami Shapiro: Thank you so much. Weak adjective: difficult by→for in→at , and , I→; I Repetitive word: home the good Undo GENERAL (DEFAULT) 7386 WORDS 3 CRITICAL ISSUES5 ADVANCED ISSUESSCORE: 99 Style checking has been disabled
Dr. Karen Wyatt founded the End-of-Life University. Hear how her father's suicide lead her to learn about hospice and a career that focuses on helping educate people about end-of-life care. Contact End of Life University Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: On this episode, I'm speaking with Dr. Karen Wyatt. Dr. Wyatt is a family practice physician who specialized in hospice medicine for many years, and more recently has created the End of Life University, which is an online site that provides education and tools for people to learn about and become more comfortable with approaching end of life and having the most peaceful and dignified end of life possible. She's also an author, has written several books, including What Really Matters, Seven Lessons for Living From the Stories of the Dying. She also wrote a book called the Tao of Death and A Matter of Life and Death. She is a speaker and a great advocate for excellent, compassionate end of life care. During our interview, there were a couple of little connectivity issues, so there's a couple of very brief glitches. I hope it doesn't take away from the valuable content. You'll get some phenomenal insight and inspiration from this interview. Thanks for tuning in. Thank you, Karen, for being on our show today. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Hi, Bob. Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Bob: We had a chance to talk a couple of weeks age when I was interviewed for your podcast, and it was a great conversation. I think we both recognize that we have so much alignment, so many things in common regarding our careers and kind of where our priorities are, where our visions are trying to take us. You probably see this as well. Most of the people who are really passionate about providing great care for people at end of life have a personal experience or a personal story that kind of fuels their drive and their passion for that. I know you have one as well. Can you share a bit about how you became so aware of the importance of providing really phenomenal end of life care and making appropriate preparations? What's your story? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. I'm happy to share that, Bob. It started for me a long time ago, when I was just a young doctor, brand new in medical practice, and I had trained in family medicine, but honestly had no training whatsoever in end of life issues. I hadn't received any ... at all around death and dying, which is shocking really when I look back and think about that. I really didn't have any knowledge or awareness of end of life issues and what was happening in that arena. But at that time I was in my early 30s, and my own father committed suicide, which was a horrific tragedy for me and my entire ... , but particularly devastating to me, because I was a doctor, because I had done extra training in psychiatry, just so that I could treat people with depression, and I had worked with some suicidal patients in my practice. The fact that I couldn't help my own father just completely tore me apart and really caused me to question, "Am I even a good doctor? Should I even be doing medicine?" I floundered for about three years with just overwhelming guilt and grief after my dad's death. One day I got the idea to call hospice, even though at that time I wasn't even really sure what hospice did. I knew so little about it, but this inspiration just popped into my head, "Call hospice." I called and had a chat with them, the hospice in my community, to see if I could volunteer in any way. It turns out their medical director had just resigned 30 minutes before I called, and so she said, "Actually, we have a job for you right now." Knowing almost nothing about hospice, or death and dying, or end of life care, I became a hospice medical director. From that moment on, my training started in really learning about dying. I was trained by the nurses. Our hospice at that time had nurses who had worked there for 10 and 15 years, caring for dying patients. I just followed them everywhere. I sat with them, and I just soaked up all this wisdom, and experience, and knowledge from them, all things that, looking back, I know I should have learned as a doctor. It was embarrassing that, as a doctor, I knew so little, but once I started making home visits to patients in hospice, I realized this is where I'm meant to be. This is the kind of medicine I was meant to do all along. It felt like I was home in a way like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing now. It was a huge relief to me professionally to be finally offering the kind of care I wanted to give. I loved the fact that hospice was team-oriented, so I got to work with other people, with nurses, and home health aides, and the social work, and the chaplain, and we would all meet together to provide care as a team. That really fit perfectly with how I thought care should be offered to all patients, not just end of life patients. I spent many years doing hospice full time. I left family practice, did only hospice for a number of years. I just had profound experiences there, and I can say really by just immersing myself in death and dying is the way I found my way through that horrible grief and guilt that I was carrying after my dad's death. Long story, but as it goes, I ended up deciding I wanted to write a book about patients I had cared for. ... It took me many, many years to actually do that, find the time and get the book written, but I finally got that done, and I ended up leaving medicine in order to start writing. That happened eight years ago. Now I haven't been in clinical practice. I've been doing more writing, and speaking, and educating for the past eight years. Dr. Bob: Do you feel like the time you have devoted to A, caring for patients and being a part of that amazing hospice team and the work that you've done as a teacher and a writer, have you eased your conscience? Have you gotten to a place where you're not feeling guilty about what happened at this point? How has that worked? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. I would say it's much better now ... what I've begun to see over time, and it took a lot of years, is my dad was on his own path. He made his own choice and that really I couldn't have interrupted it. It was his decision, and he was determined to do what he did, and that my life intersected with my dad's life, because I was on my path, and his death is really what shifted me I think to a place I needed to be and a place I needed to go, and that without his death, I probably would never have ended up in hospice, and not that I'm saying that's a justification or the reason why my dad died, but it all fit together in that way and kind of brought me to a place where I needed to be. So, I was able to let go of feeling responsible for my dad, and allow my dad the responsibility for his own choices, and feel like I at least was able to make something beautiful out of the tragedy that happened. Dr. Bob: That experience, it's interesting, because I talk to so many people who go through a death, they go through what's a tragic loss, and ultimately there's something powerful and amazing that comes out of that. I couldn't say that that's ubiquitous, and it happens in every case, but I know a number of people, and myself included, where death has resulted in a transformation of some sort that clearly would not have taken place without the death having occurred. I think about the silver lining of life and death. For myself, the first real, peaceful death that I ever encountered or was part of that experience was my friend, Darren Farwell, who died at 32 back in 2001, and for me that was what planted the seed of wanting to provide this amazing type of care to people, you know, this interdisciplinary, holistic, compassionate type of care, because I got exposed to hospice for the first time. Then additionally, his wife ended up creating a foundation to help ... He died of melanoma, and his wife, Rhonda, created a foundation to help support education about the dangers of the sun and then built a company called UV Skinz that makes UV protective clothing and swimwear, which has grown into a phenomenal company. I see these UV Skinz being worn all over the beaches of San Diego and Hawaii. I talked to so many people over time who have been able to make something remarkable happen as a result of having experienced a death in their life. I'm assuming that you've had similar experiences. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Oh, yes. So many times, through the interviews that I do as well for End of Life University and just people that I've met, in this grief work really, that sometimes as our way of working through grief we take up a project or make a change in our lives. It can be profound, but all of these people, as you're describing, talk the same way, that it was a transformation for them. They really feel like they became the person they were meant to be, who they were meant to be, true path, true calling, once they worked through the grief that they experienced from tragedy. Dr. Bob: Interesting. It's not necessarily the death, the loss, the change that occurs because of that. It's the work that goes into the grief process and sort of the rebuilding of a life after the loss. I'm sure it's all part of it, right? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. Dr. Bob: But I guess that's probably an important component of it, the work that goes in, and what we learn about ourselves, and the other support that we may get that guides us after that experience. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. So true. It all fits together, but I think death really awakens us and helps us learn to cherish life and then make the most of it too when it hits us that wait a minute. I won't be here forever. This is limited. I need to make sure that I make the most of every moment that I have. Dr. Bob: I mean, wouldn't it be nice if somebody could have that awareness and gain that awareness without having to go through that experience? I guess maybe that's partly what we're trying to do, right? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. I've wondered about that, like is it really possible for someone to grasp that? But yes. I think most of the information I disseminate has that purpose behind it, that if only someone hears this, will learn something, will open their eyes a little bit and recognize that natural part of life for everyone, so they need to pay attention to it and be aware of it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, the work that you're doing now, you're very prolific. You're putting out a lot on your website, and you're creating groups. I know you created The Year of Reading Dangerously, a book club to help people get exposed to books that are out there that could give them a new perspective and bring more value. Can you share a little bit about what you've experienced through creating that one program? I know there are others, but I wanted to kind of focus a little bit on that one. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. Well, it's interesting. I got the idea at the end of last year. It would be really cool to do an online reading group or book club, because I had written a blog post about how to start an end of life book club in your community, and I heard back from several people that because of that blog post, they had done a year-long book group, reading books about death and dying. I thought, "But what if I could do it online and have a bigger group [inaudible 00:14:15]?" I had no idea if it would resonate with people if anyone would even be interested and would sign up. I just posted it right around New Year's Day. I posted a little message on Facebook, you know, for my Facebook followers and said, "I'm starting this reading group. You can sign up here if you're interested." That was right before I went to bed one night, and I woke up in the morning, and ... already ... reading group, and within a week I think I had 600 people on the list. That post about the reading group had been shared 57 times, so people were sharing it with other people they knew. Now we have 830 people who signed up for the reading group. We're just reading one book each month during the year of 2018. ... Each month I'm doing a conference call discussion of the book. Most of the authors of the books I've chosen for this year have agreed to come on the call and actually be there for a Q&A session. Dr. Bob: Oh. That's phenomenal. Dr. Karen Wyatt: It's really exciting and really fun. I've been fascinated to see the people who are joining the group. At first, I thought it'll just be all the same people. It'll be all the same people that already do this work who are interested, but I'm getting a lot of people are writing in on the Facebook group, "I know that it's time for me to start looking at death and dying, and I thought this would be a good way to get introduced to it." I'm excited. It was just a fun, little experiment, but it turns out that it does seem to be something people are looking for. Dr. Bob: Well, clearly. I'm part of that group now as well. It seems like there really is a growing sense of desire for people to connect around the topic of death and dying. I started a meetup here in San Diego as well, called Reimagining End of Life Care. The idea is I just want to bring people together from all different walks of life who are interested in talking about, sharing ideas, looking at the issues, trying to bring their own unique perspective and gifts, whether that's a nurse, or a doctor, or a social worker, or an Uber driver, or somebody out in the community. There are 120 people in the first couple of days joined this meetup group, because I think it's just something that's sparking interest. People are getting more comfortable exploring. I think people recognize that if you just allow things to happen by default, there's a good chance that they won't go well. There's more awareness of that. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. Definitely. I think this interest has really grown just in the last three to four years. I don't know if you've experienced that, but it seems like there's momentum now behind it. More and more people are starting to wake up and be at least less afraid of talking about death and dying. They might still be afraid of death itself, but they're less avoidant of the subject now. Dr. Bob: I think that there's growing awareness. There are the death cafes that are popping up. I guess I'm a little bit unsure whether it's just the world that I'm living in, and so I'm much more aware of it, or if it's really happening. I'm going to assume that it's really happening. I'm going to make that decision to choose to believe that it's happening, and we are part of that momentum, and we can help I think, through our experiences and through our desires, try to help to guide people to understand what they can do, what each individual can do to have A, the best possible end of life experience for themselves, to help guide others in their sphere of influence. I think like you clearly believe that the best way to have a good experience or the best chances of having a good experience is to be ready, is to be prepared, is to understand what the potential issues are, what you need to put in place to make sure that you have the best chances of having your end of life go the way that you would want it to go. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Exactly. If you even think about it, would you ever go on a journey to a place you've never been before without preparing for it ahead of time, without reading about it and learning what you need to do in advance before that trip? Getting ready for the end of life, it's really similar. You're just learning as much as you can and preparing yourself, so that you can make choices in the moment when you need to, and that you're ready for whatever might come up on that journey that you're going on. Dr. Bob: You know, I like that analogy. There are people who don't want to plan and are going to take a trip, and they're just going to start driving, right? They may know what their ultimate destination is, or they may not even know what the ultimate destination is, but they're okay with things just kind of happening and rolling with it. There are people who will live their life that way, and not plan, and not prepare, and take their chances. That's okay. That's your choice. The problem though with that is that if that's the way you choose to proceed, somebody may end up taking the flack for that, right? Your loved ones, your family members, somebody's may end up having to make choices that they're not prepared for and have to deal with kind of the fallout, which we see all the time, right? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. So true. Yes. Exactly. The loved ones might be left with terrible grief, and guilt, and a burden of having to make decisions, and that's something we all need to remember. How do we want our loved ones ...? How do we want to leave them when we do go? Dr. Bob: Sometimes people, they need a little bit more incentive than just doing it for themselves. We all know that it's important to plan and to create advanced healthcare, or we should all know that it's important to have advanced healthcare directed, to have a will, to have these things set up, so that your loved ones won't have to try to figure it out in the heat of things, but I think one way to help to inspire, encourage, incentivize people is make sure that they understand that they'll be gone or they'll be unconscious, but it's the people they care about who are going to potentially carry this burden and potentially carry guilt around with them and regret for the rest of their lives. Do it for them. If you're not going to take care of your documents, and your paperwork, and put things in place for yourself, do it for your children. Do it for your siblings. I think it's a really important message for us to share. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Absolutely. I do know many people who say, "I don't care that much what happens to me, so why should I plan." Your message is perfect, because you do care about what happens to your loved ones, and you want them to have as much peace of mind as possible. Dr. Bob: You've put a lot of things in place, and I really encourage everyone who's listening to go to Karen's website, because there's just a wealth of information, resources, and tools that are out there that can help people move forward with this kind of planning. Can you share a little bit about how that's all kind of come together? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. I started End of Life University actually after I wrote the book, the book I mentioned of stories about hospice patients, and it came out six years ago. I decided I have to do something more than just putting a book out there in the world. That's when I started doing interviews for End of Life University with people who work in all aspects of the end of life arena. I do two interviews every month on End of Life University, and your interview is upcoming in March, the one I did with you. Then I repurpose some of those interviews and have a podcast on iTunes, just like your podcast, that comes out weekly, but I keep getting more and more ideas. I start something good [inaudible 00:23:32] new idea, like, "Oh, wait. That's not enough. I need to do something more." Besides the interviews, I created ... for end of life planning, called The Step-By-Step Roadmap to Planning for the End-of-Life. So, it's just a little course, a self-directed course that walks people through the steps they need to take in order to get their paperwork done, and I'm working on other courses right now, courses to train people to become death educators in their community, to go out and start workshops, to become an educator in their own community for their neighbors and friends. Dr. Bob: So, spreading it out, right? I mean, there's so much need, and there's so much work to be done. Obviously, it's going to take a tribe, a village, and so like me, you're bringing together a tribe of people who want to make sure that the experience at end of life is as dignified and peaceful as possible. It starts so far upstream. When we think about end of life and having a peaceful end of life, you think about those last few days or weeks, but it really is so important to be working with people either before they're diagnosed with a serious illness or at the time of diagnosis. We can't wait until just those last few days of life to put in place the things that are going to allow for a peaceful and dignified transition. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. That's so true. Dr. Bob: We have to have a different conversation about continuing or discontinuing treatments. I'm sure you've experienced this as well. The medical community is so reluctant or unable to dive into those deep conversations with people about the potential impact of some of the treatments or the other options that are available. I hear it all the time from patients, you know, "My doctor would never talk about that. They wouldn't go down that path with me. They only gave me this one option." I just heard from somebody yesterday who was seeing an oncologist for esophageal cancer, and when she told the oncologist that she didn't want to do yet another course of chemotherapy because the tumor was still growing ... She'd had very toxic side effects from it, and she just wanted to try to have the last few months of her life not feeling sick all the time, knowing that at some point the cancer would progress, and she would be very compromised, but she wanted this window of time. Her doctor basically told her not to come back, "There's nothing more that I can do. If you're not going to take my advice and go with my recommendations, then here's a number for hospice," which is so wrong. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Wow. Oh. Absolutely. It's heartbreaking because a patient who's been working with a doctor for sometimes year in treatment and then suddenly the doctor abandons that patient and says, "I don't want to see you again," it's tragic. Now ... doctor, who now is not going to be exposed to the actual end of life process for his patients. He's refusing to even deal with that portion of her life as it plays out, and it's really sad for that doctor, who won't get the advantage of seeing what's possible for a patient. That just breaks my heart. Dr. Bob: It did for mine as well. I hear stories like that not infrequently. In this particular patient, she wanted to access a prescription through medical aid in dying, not that she's ready to end her life, but she knows what the ultimate course of metastatic esophageal cancer is, and it's not pretty, so she wants to be prepared, have that option. She asked her oncologist if he was in support if he could help her or even guide her, and his response was, "I don't do that. Here's a number for hospice," which again, I don't want to label all ... I don't want to generalize, but I do feel that the medical community is doing a disservice to people by not recognizing that this period of time between aggressive treatment and death, it could be so much better supported, and there's so much more that can be done, but they don't understand it. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. I would say one of my goals ultimately is to work with my colleagues in medicine and help [inaudible 00:29:02] and open their eyes to death and dying, but I realize that may not happen until we kind of galvanize their patients. We need to ... . At the grassroots level, we need patients going to their doctors saying, "You have to talk to me about and deal with me about this." I was really thrilled a few weeks ago. I got an email from a woman who had been listening to my podcast, and she and her husband are both in their 70s. She said, "We listened to your podcast about how patients need to bring up the topic with their doctors." She said, "We brought in our ... will, and we sat with our doctor and said, 'We want to go over this with you.'" She said, "His eyes got huge, and he backed toward the door and was saying, 'No. No. No. We don't need to talk about this.'" They insisted, so he sat down with them. He answered their questions. They went through their living wills together. In the end, he seemed grateful. He thanked them and said, "I'm glad that you brought this up." I was so thrilled. It actually does work. If patients will have the courage to insist that their doctors talk with them, I think the doctors will ultimately say, "Okay. I'll look at this with you." Dr. Bob: We might not get every one of them, but I think that's one certain definite strategy. Like you said, that physician was grateful. That very well may have shifted his practice, right? That one encounter, that one experience he might have recognized, "Wow. This is really meaningful, and this is important stuff, and it's not hard." Right? It's not all that difficult. It just takes a little bit of time. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. If you haven't been introduced to it or trained to have the conversation, it feels much more intimidating, and it is in your mind, than it really is once you start talking about it. I think that becomes an obstacle to physicians to bring up the subject, but once they've done it, they can realize, oh, it actually feels comfortable, and it actually it's kind of a relief, once we get these issues out in the open and discuss it together. Dr. Bob: Well, Karen, I think you and I have a lot of good work to do, both individually and together. I think, as we've been talking about, there are some great opportunities to bring our tribes together, and continue moving the needle in the right direction, and trying to give as many people as possible the tools that they need, the inspiration they need to put in place what they can to ensure that as their life is coming to a close, as they're dealing with these health challenges, that their values and their wishes are honored. I'm really happy to be in partnership with you on that. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Same here. Same here. It's good to join forces. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You got a lot of, as we mentioned, a lot of great material and resources, so how do people tap into that? What's the best way for people to access what you've put together? Dr. Karen Wyatt: They can go to EOLUniversity.com. That's my website, EOL standing for end of life, but EOLUniversity.com. There they can connect to the podcast and blogs I've written. They can learn about upcoming interviews, find my books and courses, so I need to update that a little bit, but they should be able to find everything at EOLUniversity.com. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, you've done a phenomenal job. When you go to her website, don't be overwhelmed. There's a lot of information, but just take it a bit at a time. Dive in. If you're interested in, I guess in just dipping your toes in the water of this, then maybe sign up for the Year of Reading Dangerously Book Club and start with one or two of those books. We will, I'm sure, have more time, opportunities to connect and collaborate. Again, I appreciate you taking the time. I love our conversations because it's just sort of like talking to myself, but with somebody smarter. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. It's wonderful. It's wonderful for me too, Bob, to be speaking to somebody like-minded, so thanks so much for this opportunity. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. Until next time, have a wonderful day, and give your loved ones a big hug and a kiss. Take care.
Nurse Jen Durrant of Integrated MD Care shares her views on dying and why she believes it should be more accepted in society. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Dr. Bob: Welcome to another episode of A Life and Death Conversation. Today, I'm going to introduce you to a very dear friend of mine, and a colleague, member of the Integrated MD Care Team, who I'm very excited to introduce to you and let you get to know her a bit because she is a remarkable human being. She is a remarkable nurse, and she is a true, gentle, compassionate, and healing spirit. I know I built her up quite a bit, and she's embarrassed, but that's too bad. Jen Durrant, please say hello to our listeners. Jen Durrant: Hello, listeners. Thank you for embarrassing me, Dr. Bob. Dr. Bob: That is one of my skills, so Jen is a nurse. She is the Director of Nursing for Integrated MD Care, my comprehensive, in-home practice for people with complex and terminal illnesses, and Jen is someone who I can truly say understands what it takes to truly care for people, and she has a wealth of knowledge, and wisdom, and has just been a joy to work with. Jen joined us in our practice just a few months ago, but I've known her for several years. Jen, do you remember when we first met, because I do, and if you don't, that's okay. Jen Durrant: You remember it better than I do. Dr. Bob: I do remember it better than you do, so I remember a few years ago, I was working as a physician with a hospice company. I was doing palliative care and hospice, and I was called out to see a patient because the family was having a lot of struggle with what was going on. The mom was dying, and the family was having a hard time giving up hope of her getting better, and they wanted her to have more treatment, and it was clear to everybody around that she was not in a position to benefit from treatment, and she really, truly was in her last if not hours, then days of life. I came in to try to just be a support, and help guide the family a bit, but I didn't have to do any of that, because when I came in, I saw Jennifer, who with the hospice admissioners, working with this family, and what I saw was a person who was so gentle in her approach, sensitive to what the family was going through, but firm in her conviction that the patient really needed the support of this hospice team, and should not be subjected to any more aggressive types of treatments. I'm not sure. You may not remember that exact moment, but I'm sure that's a familiar scenario in your work in hospice over the years. Jen Durrant: Yes. Especially being a hospice admissions nurse, I was usually the first contact. Sometimes even the physicians hadn't had that discussion with the family yet, so I was used to stepping into those situations, and supporting the family, and helping them see what was really happening with their loved ones. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and I just remember being really impressed. I had not met her before, and I hadn't actually been involved in hospice all that long, so I was learning as well, and I remember thinking, this gal knows what she's doing, and she's doing it really, really well. At some point in the future, if I ever had my own practice, I'd be looking for someone like her to join me. Fast forward a few years, and I was no longer working with that company, and Jen was no longer working with that company, and I was looking for a nurse to join the practice. I heard through the grapevine that she was in transition, and looking for a new home, and I reached out, and it was ... I wouldn't say it was love at first sight, but it was a match, and it's been a great experience, and I think that we have a lot of great opportunities to work together ahead. I hope you feel the same way. Jen Durrant: I do feel the same way, except for me, it was love at first sight. Dr. Bob: I want to ask a little bit, so we've gotten through that. I've told everyone how wonderful you are, and as you know, I share that pretty freely, because I do think you're wonderful. I want to ask, how did you get to the place of being so comfortable in that position, stepping into situations that are so emotionally charged, and everybody kind of coming at you in many cases, needing answers, needing the solutions. How did you come to be comfortable in that role? Jen Durrant: I think it started when worked in pediatric hospice, as a nurse in pediatric oncology, as a nurse assistant, and many times the patients got better and went home, and we got pictures from their high school dances. Sometimes they didn't, and we were there as the kids were declining, and they were getting sicker, and the family ... They're not usually prepared to lose their child. The parents are supposed to go first, and I just found that I had a knack for holding space for them, and mostly what they needed was someone to listen to them, and you didn't have to solve all their problems. They just wanted to be heard, and from then on, I knew that I wanted to work on end of life, and so after nine years of being a nurse assistant, was finally just take that part out. After nine years of being a nurse assistant, I finally decided to go to nursing school, so I could more fully support people in that phase of their lives. Dr. Bob: When you went to nursing school, did you know at that point you wanted to work at end of life work in hospice? Jen Durrant: I had no idea hospice or palliative care even existed, and so once I learned about that, I knew that was exactly what I wanted to do. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Jen Durrant: Yeah. Dr. Bob: It's a good thing. One of the things that I've noticed about you, and it's commented on by patients and families, is your calm presence. You don't get excited. You don't get worked up. You just, you're a very calming supportive presence, and you do. You listen, you hold that space, and yet you also are firm, and provide the right guidance, so people feel very confident in your presence, so I appreciate that. Jen Durrant: My pleasure. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I could tell. We're going to get that piece out, too. I know I asked you to prepare a few things in preparation for our podcast, and because this is a conversation about life in death, I want to ask you first, what are the things in your life that you treasure most? What is most important to you in life? Jen Durrant: That's easy. That's my family. My son, my spouse, my extended family, my friends I consider family, they're all most important to me. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I get that. What do you think about death? What's your ... Just kind of from a high view, what ... When you think about death, what comes up for you? You're around a lot of death. You see people die. You're in the presence of people dying, and you're not a stranger to death, so what's your feeling about it? Jen Durrant: It's a natural part of life, and just so much as birth is a natural part of life, so is death, and I'm very comfortable residing with people that are dying, with the families that are supporting the people, their loved ones that are dying. I don't feel afraid of death, for the most part, I should say, but I feel it should become more normal, normalized process, and less clinical, not a clinical experience. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative), less of a medical phenomenon, and just more of a normal part of life. Jen Durrant: Right. Dr. Bob: Like it used to be. Jen Durrant: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dr. Bob: Yeah, and I think we're trying to move the needle more in that direction, and I think part of our goal of our practice is to help people get to the place where when death is inevitable, that they're no longer struggling against it, or fearing it, but it's becoming ... It's just; this is the part of life that we all share, right? We share two things. We're all born, and we all die. There's very little else that we can all say absolutely we will share in this life. I think your comfort with that is a really important part of how you're able to provide comfort to others in that space. Yeah, but we're not always ... I think one of the things that I want to also talk about is the life part, because our practice, while we are really good at helping people die peacefully, we're also really good at helping people feel better, and experience some more, a greater sense of joy, and peace, while they're still living. Can you talk a little bit about how you see your role in that? Jen Durrant: Yes. I think being around people that are passing away and their families is actually really life-affirming for me, and I take that to our patients, and to our families, and I feel I'm able to encourage them to say yes to life and try things they may not have considered before. Dr. Bob: What are some of the things that you have encouraged patients and families to try to enhance the quality of their life, that they may not have been open to, or thought about? What are some of those things that you're really excited about being able to bring to them? Jen Durrant: Working with you has broadened my horizons, and being part of the practice, so really encouraging them to try the alternative therapies that we offer, and the practitioners we team up with. I think a lot of people get stuck on just the medical solution to the problem. They want a pill to take their symptoms away, and so we really explore what does acupuncture look like? What does cannabis therapy look like, or massage, music therapy, being able to talk with a social worker, and pain, for example, going at it from all angles. Yes, we'll medicate to make sure you're comfortable, but let's try some acupuncture. Let's try massage, or maybe it's a spiritual pain or existential pain that they really just need to be heard and have someone to talk to, so I feel we take a more broad approach, and it's really nice to be able to open their minds to alternative therapies, instead of just medication. Dr. Bob: Yup. I completely agree with that, as you know. You've been in the traditional hospice world, and now you're working in this world, which is a private model that doesn't have the same constraints. What's it like to be practicing here? How do you ... I guess from the perspective of a nurse practicing in this realm, and what do you think it's like from the perspective of a patient to have, to be part of our practice versus a traditional hospice model? Jen Durrant: As a nurse, it's really freeing. I felt very constrained by the hospice model. Most of the time I felt I was providing 10% of my time towards patient care, and supporting the family, and the other 90% of the time sitting at my computer charting to Medicare guidelines, and everyone needs to fit into the hospice box. Whereas here, there are no boxes, and we're really thinking outside the box to support the patient and family in ways that weren't possible when I was working with hospice. I've been learning a lot, and learning how to support patients and families in ways that don't just include medications, or offering a visit from a chaplain, but really being able to be with them, become part of the family, and support not just the patient and the family, and the caregivers, and I think from the patient's point of view, they're really just getting a lot of extra support, and love, and involvement that they don't get anywhere else. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's what I see. One of the things that I recognize with our practice is, there's something unspoken. It's hard when you talk about what it is that we provide that's different, the knowledge that the patients and families have that there's somebody available to talk to at any time of the day or night, and it's not going to be a bother. They're not going to get a runaround. They're going to speak to someone who knows them and cares about them, and who they've developed a trust with. I think that that is ... There's no substitute for that, and it immediately, from the moment they realize they have that, it immediately reduces their stress level, and their anxiety, and I think that allows people to sleep better, to feel better, to eat better, and I didn't quite get how important that was, how vital that was, until enough people had told me that, I just feel so much more relaxed, and know that I can call Jenna for anytime, day or night. Whether it's two in the morning. Jen Durrant: That's right. Dr. Bob: Do you have any particular experiences with dying people, or in death that were really especially impactful or meaningful, that came up? Was that one of the questions that you explored? Jen Durrant: Yes, there are so many. I'll share a couple. One, I was with a patient with his wife in the hospital. I went to do a hospice evaluation, to see if they were appropriate to start service and get them started. When I got there, the patient was already passing away, and I told the family, "We won't have time to get him home. If we try, he may pass away in transport," and they were not comfortable with that, and I could have pushed through with the admission, and made them do a bunch of paperwork, and answer a bunch of questions, but I decided not to, and I just stayed for an hour, and provided support, and guidance, even though they weren't officially under our care. Just to see that peace come over the patient and the family, just because they had a supportive presence there, was really powerful. They felt like they were floundering in the hospital and the system, and just having someone to support brought them peace, and I was there as he passed away. I didn't provide any sort of medical care, because they weren't our patient, but just to be there and watch him transition peacefully really meant a lot to me, and it meant a lot to the family. I've attended a couple more difficult deaths, where the patient's suffering, the family's suffering even more so because it's hard to see their loved one having difficulty, and sometimes I didn't have all the tools I needed to ease symptoms, as far as medications with hospice, and it was really just being able to support the family through that hard transition. I believe as a patient's passing away, even though they may have symptoms, they may have trouble breathing, or make strange sounds when they're breathing, I believe the patient isn't conscious at that point, and perhaps their soul's already floating above their body, and that they're not experiencing that discomfort. I know everyone else may not believe that, but because I believe that they're not really experiencing that, I can help support the family and say, tell them they're not conscious. They're most likely not feeling this pain. They'll be okay. It brings them a lot of comfort just knowing even though they look like they're suffering, there's a calm presence telling them, and supporting them through the process that it'll be okay. I'm here for you. What can I do to help you feel better? It's really an honor to just be there, to guide them, and support them, and ... Dr. Bob: I am sure that it is incredibly impactful, and it changes that experience for them, right, an experience that they could be completely out of control, and terrifying, that they would potentially feel guilty about for the rest of their life, maybe decades. You change that. You couldn't necessarily say the person who was dying, that wasn't the role you were playing, but just to be there, to make sure that they had a better sense of what was happening in a calmness. When they look back at that experience, it will be very different than it would've been otherwise, so I'm sure that ... I know the feeling of the power of knowing that you saved people from having potential years of angst, and regret. That's really phenomenal. Jen Durrant: That's my hope. Dr. Bob: That's our hope. That's what we're doing. Yeah, we're here to support the patients, and comfort them, and guide them, but that's just a piece of it, and those patients will die, and they're gone, living on in the memories of their loved ones, but the memories of their loved ones, and the way that the loved ones then go on in the world, is really part of our work, too. Jen Durrant: Right. Dr. Bob: That's really meaningful, and you get that, which is why you're part of the team, so, and thank you for that. Jen Durrant: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Yeah. What do you think happens after we die? Do you have any direct knowledge of that, or are you ... Can you speak from a factual place, or can you only speak from what you believe? Jen Durrant: Both. Dr. Bob: Really. Jen Durrant: Yes. Dr. Bob: Okay, well, share. Jen Durrant: [inaudible 00:22:47] I've been with a lot of dying patients, and in the process of dying, they will reach out to people only they can see. They will have conversations with people only they can see. I had a really strong experience when I worked in pediatric oncology. There was a patient there. He was 21, and he was only in the pediatric ward because he had relapsed multiple times, and so he came back to the children's hospital to continue treatment. He was about six-four, tall, African American kid, and so he took it upon himself to make friends with all the little ones, or with the new patients, and help them feel supported, and like they had a friend that would understand what they're going through. There was a little boy who was five, and they just bonded. They were both terminal at that point, and that patient would spend hours with this little boy, just talking with him, and telling him not to be afraid. He said, "When you pass," it's making me emotional, "When you pass, I'll be there waiting for you. I'm going to go first, so you don't have to be afraid." The patient passed, let's say, on a Wednesday, and the little boy passed the very next day, at exactly the same time, and before he took his last breath, he looked up, and smiled, and put his hands up in the air. To me, that's a fact, that there is an afterlife, and there are people that are watching out for us. Dr. Bob: And waiting for us. Jen Durrant: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dr. Bob: That's beautiful. Jen Durrant: It is. Dr. Bob: Thank you for sharing that. I'm sure that ... I think that that will be comfortable for many people, so that's ... Based on that, and other experiences and just your life evolving, you're confident and comfortable with that? I guess confident may be a stretch, but you feel pretty comfortable that when we die, there are people wait ... You'll see your loved ones and people waiting for us? Jen Durrant: I do. I've seen it too many times to be able to say there's anything else different. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I'm in complete and full agreement with that, so have you ever had any messengers, or messages directly that you feel were from loved ones, people who have died? Jen Durrant: I do, more so in my dreams. There was a patient when I was a brand-new hospice nurse. I was really close with her, and her family. She had a young daughter about my age with a son about my age, and the daughter was doing all she could to care for her mom, who was very near death, and so I was highly involved in their care, trying to support the patient, and support the daughter as much as I could, probably doing things out of the scope of my practice, but I was okay with that. The night before my patient passed, I had a dream about her, and in my dream, she was up and walking, but she was trying to take her clothes off, and telling me that her clothes don't fit anymore, and it's time for her to take them off, and find something else. When I woke up, I knew that she would pass away that day, and she did. Dr. Bob: She took off her clothes. Jen Durrant: Yeah. She was ready to go, go out the way she came in. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I've had ... I think I've shared before stories of maybe, not in this form, but my strong connection with dragonflies, who have come to visit me after loved ones have died, and there's just no question in my mind that those are messengers just coming to comfort, and let me know that I'm being watched and loved, and I'm always ... When I'm with people whose loved ones are dying, and we have the honor of being able to talk to people who know they're dying, and will be dying soon, and engage in discussions with them and their loved ones, and so I'm always asking them to have a conversation about how they will communicate, as long as they're open to it. I try not to force, push my belief system on others, but if they're open, then I try to have them make that sort of agreement, and I think that ends up being very comforting for people. Jen Durrant: My wife's grandma was murdered. We don't need to get into the details of that, but when her house was being cleared out, they found jars, and jars, and jars of buttons, and she would save the buttons in case someone needed one for their shirt, or whatever they needed it for. Her sister took some of the buttons and made necklaces for the family, and to this day, we will find buttons in places there should not be buttons. One day we were at the beach, and it was a particularly hard day for my wife because it was the anniversary of her grandma's passing, and on the sand, at the beach, there were about 20 buttons, different shapes, colors, and sizes, and that brought a lot of comfort to my wife, and of course we collected them, and took them home with us. Dr. Bob: Of course you did. Anything else that you ... Any other really important or unimportant thoughts that you'd like to share with folks? Jen Durrant: I think these podcasts are important, and it's important to continue the conversations about death and dying, and living, and getting to a point where we talk about death as comfortably as we do about birth. Dr. Bob: I appreciate that, and I know you're part of that movement, and will continue to be, and will continue to bring immense comfort to many people throughout your life, so thank you for being you, thank you for being part of our tribe, and thank you for joining me on the podcast today. Jen Durrant: You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
Dr. Tim Corbin joins the Integrated MD Care team. He shares his experiences as the Director of Palliative Care at Scripps Health and why working with terminally ill patients is so meaningful to him. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome back to A Life And Death Conversation. I'm Dr. Bob Uslander, and I'm here today with my good friend, Dr. Tim Corbin, who has recently joined the ranks of Integrated MD Care after working for many years in various capacities as a hospitalist, a palliative care and hospice physician. Tim, I'm excited to have you on the show, and I'm excited to have you as part of our team, Tim. Dr. Corbin: It's good to be here. It's been a journey to get here, and it's a really exciting future for me. Dr. Bob: Well, we've been talking about working together for quite a while now, and timing is everything. Just so listeners are up to speed on you and what you bring to our team, tell me a little bit about your background, your training, and the work that you've been doing up until now. Dr. Corbin: Sure. Well, I'm internal medicine trained through my residency and became board certified in internal medicine. I went into private practice for a few years. I had the romantic vision of being able to take care of my patient completely in my office at home, in the hospital. I realize in the changes of healthcare that that just wasn't practical. It became more difficult at that time to make a living doing that, believe it or not, with insurance changes, and the evolution of HMOs, and all those sorts of things. What I really loved, being in the hospital, taking care of patients who were facing more serious illness and ultimately became a hospitalist as that movement was developing, so spent over 10 years being a hospitalist and taking care of patients in the hospital. But all along I've been doing hospice medicine. There was just a part of me that identified with patients, and I saw that need, and it was very meaningful work, so always a percentage of my practice evolved around caring for patients on hospice and at home. Palliative care became one of the fastest growing specialties in medicine, you know, kind of in the last 10 years. Having done hospital-based medicine as well as hospice work, I was in a position to really gravitate towards that, and it really spoke to the style of medicine that I like to practice, and I again saw a huge need, and so began developing really hospital-based palliative medicine services, and started one in 2008, and then ultimately became the director of the palliative care service at Scripps Health for four or five years. Dr. Bob: It seems like you were in a really well positioned for palliative medicine, being internal medicine trained, having all that experience in the hospital, working with hospice. I think, like me, what you recognized was there's a gap, right? Dr. Corbin: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: There's a gap between treating people aggressively in the hospital and then sending them off to hospice, where the entire focus is comfort and essentially waiting until the end of life. There's this big gap there, where people still need more care. Dr. Corbin: Having done so much care at home, I think I would see in the hospital what patients were often missing. You know, they were receiving their care in the hospital setting, and I always thought about the possibilities of doing some of this at home, where patients prefer to be and can be more comfortable if we had the abilities to do that. That was clearly a huge gap that's been improving, but in my careers, that was a huge gap for families and patients, so I recognized that pretty early on. I always used to joke that hospital medicine, you know, being a hospitalist and internist, strengthened my care, caring for patients at the end of life, but the opposite was true. Me doing hospice medicine and caring for so many patients when they were dying really strengthened my ability to be a better doctor upstream, as an internist, seeing patients in a hospital or even in a clinic setting. Dr. Bob: So, can you expand on that a little bit? Why is that? What do you think that results from? Dr. Corbin: I think for myself, if I'm effective as a palliative care physician, I'm guiding patients through the process of end of life, if patients and families don't recognize that there was a possible issue that could have caused more pain, or suffering, or difficulty, but I've been able to help guide that that never becomes and issue, because I have kind of a prospective insight about what may be coming, and so part of it is a skill of anticipating when we may not have good outcomes or beneficial care and not providing care that doesn't provide that. The way you set what beneficial care is and what quality is is really having those conversations with patients and families so that you gear your care towards what best supports them as a patient and a person. Dr. Bob: Yeah. What they want, what their goals are. Dr. Corbin: What they want. Dr. Bob: It's so true. I think that most physicians who don't take care of people who are dying or who don't see them in their homes, the traditional office-based physician, really have no idea what those challenges are and what's happening with people once they're no longer able to come to their office. I don't fault them for it, but there's a certain amount of ignorance or just lack of experience. They can't anticipate it, which if they can't anticipate it, they can't do anything about it. ` Dr. Corbin: You can take a history and a social history and ask patients, but when you're in the home, and you see for yourself, you see aspects that will affect patients' medical care. Now we're getting in the realm of talking about the social issues and the emotional issues, even spiritual issues. You go in a house, and you can tell a lot about what's important to a patient, and you can immediately identify conflicts and what we're doing medically that don't align with that. Dr. Bob: Right. That don't support that. Sure. Dr. Corbin: In fact, many times I would say, "You know, let me come see you at home next week," and patients laugh out loud, or they're taken aback. They say, "Well, I can come see you in your office." I say, "No. I really want to come see you at home," because I anticipate that later I will need to come to their home–in a fair amount of time–but also, again, it gives me that insight, and there's something about being in a home environment, where you break down some barriers of trust. You can be open with each other to really talk about what's most important. I had a very elderly patient who had a lot of medical issues going on. I thought I was going to her home to talk about that, but her cat kept bothering us while we were trying to have our interview. What it came down to, one of her biggest stressors was, "What's going to happen to my cat? Who's going to take care of my cat?" These things were affecting her ability to make medical decisions about what she wanted and what choices she wanted because she was worried about who's going to help take care of her cat. Dr. Bob: If she were coming into your office, she probably wouldn't feel like that was worth your time, right, to bring that issue up. Dr. Corbin: Right. If I were really an astute clinician, I'd notice the cat hair on her maybe, and I would be able to ask those questions, but I'm usually not that good. Dr. Bob: The second part of that is that someone who's in the patient's home may see the cat, and the cat may come up in conversation, but they wouldn't really be so perceptive or be so concerned about that dynamic, so it's not just the fact that you're there. It's also the fact of who you are. Dr. Corbin: Too often what we see as important to physicians and clinicians is medically based. It's disease based. We don't often think about the social dynamic of patients and how that may affect their health and their decision making. I think that is so true in the hospital setting because patients become institutionalized. I mean, you're giving up your freedom in many aspects, because you become a patient, and you become a patient within a hospital that has certain processes, and rules, and you don't have access to your home. This is something that is tolerated, obviously, by many patients, and we give amazing care, but when you start having patients who that's not really the most appropriate place for them to be, then we have to start creating better solutions than using the hospital as a way to kind of take care of patients who really don't want to be there or don't need to be there. Dr. Bob: Right, or don't need to be there, or it's detrimental for them to be there. Let's segue into that. We'll go back and talk more about what you're doing now because you've made a shift, and you're no longer in that position of running the palliative care and hospice program at Scripps Health, much to many people's dismay over there and joy on our side. But I wanted us to talk a bit about the hospital experience, the gaps that people experience, the challenges, because me, having my experience of being an ER doc for so many years, seeing people coming in various states and conditions, you as a hospitalist, palliative care physician, hospice physician, I think we're in a unique position to help people understand some of the challenges and risks that they face when they are in the hospital dealing with complex illnesses. You can I could spend hours, and hopefully, we will, talking about the different challenges and gaps that people face and ways to help avoid being harmed by them. Well, let's spend a little time focusing on what happens in the hospital, what doesn't happen in the hospital, what happens when people are preparing to be discharged, and where are the gaps, and what can people do to help prevent any further turmoil or challenge? I mean, you mentioned when you're in the hospital, you're in an institution, right? You're in their territory, so you lose some of your freedoms. I think that people who work in the hospitals, they lose sight of that. I mean, they're busy. Everyone's working hard. No one's lollygagging around, for the most part. I will make generalizations. In general, I think that people in healthcare really do care. They really want to do the job, and they really want to take good care of people, so it's less of a personal personality issue, and I think more of an institutional system problem, that we just don't have enough staff. We don't have enough people to provide the kind of personalized, supportive care that people are looking for and need, and that's largely a financial issue, right? I mean, what's your perspective on that, having spent so much time in the hospital? Why don't people feel, in general, like they're well cared for? Or do you think that they do? Dr. Corbin: I think in many cases they do, and in many cases, they don't. I think one of my family members, in their personal experience, made a comment that in the hospital they felt like they were a cog in a wheel, where there's this path of workup, and diagnosis, and treatment that is on a course of, you know, kind of standard medical treatment that, again, a patient gets put into. A patient's in a bed. The physicians discuss having, "Well, we need to get a CT scan." It's ordered, and all of a sudden someone shows up to the patient, and they're whisking them to the radiology, and the patient doesn't understand why. When you sign yourself up in a hospital, you're signing yourself up and agreeing to the treatment that needs to be done for your particular issue. As physicians and clinicians, we're trained to treat that condition. You know, there's kind of a process and an algorithm to that, to a certain extent, and we don't often go off course. To not do something could risk missing a diagnosis or risk of there being downstream harm, and physicians are very sensitive to that, whether it's from the standpoint of malpractice or not providing a standard of care. The standard of care becomes doing everything, which is not always appropriate. It's not always beneficial care. I tell you, patients often recognize that, and they understand that and are willing to take that risk, if you will, so there becomes this disconnect between what the treating teams are doing and what the patients really want. The patients, it's not that they don't want to be hospitalized. They may say, "You know, I'm weaker at home. I'm 90 years old, but my quality of life's pretty good, so I don't mind coming in and getting treated for pneumonia, but I'm not really up for getting a bunch of CT scans and being poked and prodded and this sort of thing," so where is that balance? In many ways, it's the physician's job to cure and to treat fully, but we're not always taught how not to do everything, so I think patients need to recognize that. There are many times patients bring up the fact and want to have this conversation. So, in the last 10 year, palliative care teams have developed in the hospitals, which are multidisciplinary teams made up of physicians, and nurses, and social workers, and even chaplains to really address patients' emotional, social, spiritual needs, as well as their physical needs, but really it developed as a support team to help support patients with serious illness through the hospitalization, which is kind of crazy when you think about it. Our technology and ability to treat patients is so, you know, high tech and the ability to keep patients going and keep patients alive is so extended that we need support teams to help- Dr. Bob: To protect them. Dr. Corbin: ... to help fend off, you know ... It's kind of like the ability to turn off your cellphone and ways for patients to connect with you. It's very interesting when you start thinking about the ... I always joke that I hope I don't have a job as a palliative care doc one day because that means that our healthcare system is treating patients with the values and the principles of palliative care that we don't need specialists in palliative care to do this. I think we'll always need our expertise and specialty, but there's so much work to be done in that realm of taking care of patients holistically. Dr. Bob: So, a huge issue that we touched on is that when people are in the hospital, sometimes the care is appropriate, and then there are times when it just goes beyond what they would want or might seem necessary because that's just the way it's done. My sense is that it's the path of least resistance. A person is in the hospital. They've got a condition. Something else might be identified. Then they get a consult with the kidney specialist, and they get a consult by the cardiologist, and a consult by the infectious disease guy, and the pulmonologist. Everybody gets a piece of this patient. Everybody gets paid, but everyone's ordering the tests that they feel are appropriate, potentially the treatments that they feel appropriate, and then before you know it, there are six different physicians treating the patient, and they're now a week into it, and they've been tested and treated way beyond they may have ever wanted, because those conversations are not happening. Dr. Corbin: Let's think about each of those physicians who are seeing those patients, who are amazing clinicians, really good docs, want the best for the patients, want the best outcomes, so intentions are all perfect and good, but in today the chances that any one of those physicians has a long-term relationship with that patient is almost zero. We now have sub-specialists, who do nothing but round in the hospital for their group. We used to have just hospitalists. Now we have cardiologists that are hospitalists. We have GI docs that are hospitalists. We have neurologists that ... when you get admitted to a hospital, you have this new team taking care of you, and no one has had that relationship over time. If you, as a patient, have defined what is most important to you and what your true goals are for your life, what gives you dignity and respect, and how you want your life to go as you become sicker, no one has appreciation for that. That's one reason we have palliative care teams, because we sit there for three hours and try to understand this, so we can affect what we decide to do with patients. If you don't have those conversations, as my family said, you become a cog in a wheel, where we're going to treat whatever's going on as we do everybody, and there are tremendous pressures to then get you out of the hospital. You know, we always want a shorter length of stay. Dr. Bob: We do everything- Dr. Corbin: When I first started as a hospitalist, patients stayed in the hospital five or six days. Now it's down to below four days, three days average length of stay. Tremendous pressure to see patients, make a diagnosis, start treatment, and then get out of the hospital. So, you don't have the luxury of time to sit there and think about what you want, or you don't want, because people are coming up to you constantly saying, "We need to do this next and this next." So, it can be completely overwhelming. Families and patients get in a crisis mode. You know, I tell families and patients, "It's really not a good place, in a hospital, to be making life or death decisions, when you're in a crisis mode, where you're emotionally stressed. You haven't been sleeping well. Family's flying in from out of town everywhere, and you're being asked to make decisions that hugely impact what your future is going to look like. You really need to try to have these conversations earlier." Dr. Bob: Very critical information, the timing of that, when you do it, but a lot of times it's not being done. Dr. Corbin: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: So, we now find people who are facing this. They're in the hospital. They're being asked or kind of demanded to make a decision about what's next for them, which may mean going home with certain treatments. It may mean going home and being in hospice. It may mean going to a nursing facility. But they're being pressured, because of what you were just describing, where there's pressure on the physicians to discharge patients and get them out of the hospital quicker, which in some cases is appropriate, but it puts this new sense of time pressure on families to make decisions, and they're getting it from the hospital discharge planners, and the case managers, and now the doctors. So, what do you do? Dr. Corbin: Yeah. You started this conversation talking about gaps in care. I think the gaps are that, you know, our healthcare system's kind of in silos. You see your primary doctor. You go to specialists. When you're in the hospital, you have your hospital team. When you leave the hospital, you may go to a facility, like a skilled nursing facility, which has its own team. So, the patient needs to speak for themselves. We talk about healthcare now should be more patient-centered and family-centered, where the patient should have the autonomy in decision making to make decisions that are best for them, but they're constantly facing a new team. I once looked at social workers' touches on a patient who had cancer very early in their diagnosis all the way through to the end of their life, and they had five different social workers over the course of like a two year period. You know, they had a social worker, outpatient oncology social worker. They had a home health social worker. They had a social worker in the hospital. The palliative care team had seen them eventually, and they had their own social worker. When they ultimately went home on hospice, they had a different social worker. So, you can see that families and patients sometimes complain about having to tell their story again, because they're constantly having to tell their story again– Dr. Bob: Over, and over, and over. Dr. Corbin: ... and reiterate what's most important to them. You know? It's almost like telling my story fatigue. They just get tired of that. So, there are the gaps where there's not that support. Dr. Bob: The continuous support, the continuity. Dr. Corbin: And often it's about explaining to families and patients what their options are and how to be prepared for those things. It's much easier to do it when you have a little bit of time and space. It's very hard when you're told, "You need to figure this out within two days, because they're being discharged in two days, and we need to know if they're going to a skilled nursing, or are they going to go home with more support, or whatever the case may be." Then patients often, depending on what kind of support they need, they may ... For example, hospice, which is by definition for someone whose prognosis is estimated to be less than six months of life. With that, you get a hospice service, and you get kind of this comprehensive care that's paid for through a hospice benefit. It's great support. You have 24-hour care for nurses, a triage available. They can come to the home as needed. Medicines are often delivered to the patient. You have a social worker, physician's visit, do home visits. I mean, it's an amazing program, but it's for the more very end of life. I see a lot of patients who are kind of really I wouldn't say pushed, but one of the options is to go to hospice when maybe it's questionable whether they may qualify. It's questionable whether that's what they truly want. They're not maybe ready for that, but they get the support because everything else is breaking down, that they're kind of pushed towards that, and then patients get better because there's not another alternative. The alternative home is often home health, which doesn't give the same amount of support. If patients' preferences are to get home, one of the huge gaps is enabling patients to get home with the kind of support they need. By default, if we don't have that, they have to go to a skilled nursing facility many find it very difficult to participate, but they're supposed to participate with a certain amount of therapy. They prefer to be at home. You look at a healthcare system that's looking at ways to be more cost-effective and to give beneficial care. You know, you have a situation where patients prefer to be home. That's where they want to be, yet there's no infrastructure to support that, yet it's inexpensive care when you compare it to a skilled nursing facility, or you compare it to going back in the hospital, and yet we haven't, as a healthcare system, figured that out yet. There have been improvements there, but it's a gap. It's a problem. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I think one of the reasons that it continues is because the people who are making the recommendations and facilitating the discharge, physicians, discharge planners, case managers, they have a hard time thinking outside the box. They're looking at what is the most efficient. They're looking at multiple factors. They're looking at what's in the best interest of the patient, what's going to allow them to get the patient out most efficiently because they have pressure to discharge the patients, and then what they're familiar with. How do you facilitate it? Unfortunately, what's in the best interest of the patient or what's most aligned with the patient's goals and values drops down the list of priorities, and people, patients, and families don't know to question it. They don't question the doctor. When the doctor says, "You need to go to a nursing home," well, that's where you need to be, but many times, as we both know, that's really not what's in the best interest of the patient or the family, and so everyone continues to struggle. Dr. Corbin: We should always question, as patients and families, if possible, just not question, but understand. If I'm going through a test or if I'm being sent somewhere, you know, why? What's the purpose, and what is the outcome, and what's the endpoint? What is my goal? I often tell patient and families, "Let's understand who you are as a person, as a patient. What's most important to you? What gives you the quality of life and meaning? And let's align the medical care we provide and the support we give with those goals." It's approaching the patient from a completely different perspective than what we're really taught in medical school, which is really disease based, you know, history and physical, if you will. Diane Meier, who's a leader in palliative care, had a quote. I don't know her exact words, but basically, she said, "You know, palliative care is about matching patients' goals with the medical care we provide." Dr. Bob: It needs to be driven by that, and it's not. And patients still, especially the older patients that we get to take care of, they're intimidated. They don't feel empowered to question what's going on. They may, in some cases, and sometimes there's a family member who will stand up and advocate, but too seldom does that happen. We, I think you and I recognize these gaps. We're working towards trying to fill them in our way, in our community, but what I'd like to do is to give a couple of, I guess action items, a couple of things that people can do to take away from this discussion when they have a patient, a family member, or themselves admitted to the hospital who is then going to be discharged. What are the couple of things that we would recommend that people could do? I'll start by saying, in general, if possible, you should never allow a family member to be in the hospital alone. Whatever needs to happen. And I know it's not always easy. It can be very challenging. Sometimes it's costly, but when a person is in the hospital, they are sometimes sedated. There's the potential for medication errors. I had just a patient who was a 31-year-old woman, who was on pain medication for an intestinal disorder that made it so that she couldn't eat anything. She was being fed through feedings going through her veins. She got an infection. She was hospitalized. A well-meaning nurse, but a relatively new nurse, instead of giving her five milligrams of Methadone, gave her 50 milligrams of Methadone, which is a huge, potentially fatal error. Those types of things happen all the time. It's not just the errors. It's the feelings of loneliness, of isolation, of needing to get somebody to come in and help you get to the bathroom, to understand what the doctors are saying when they come in on their rounds, which could be whenever. People need advocates, and I will never allow a family member of mine to be in the hospital at any point without somebody there to advocate for them, so I would strongly encourage people to find a family member, friend, or even if you have to to pay someone to be there with you. Dr. Corbin: Yeah. I would agree with that. You know, things in the hospital happen fast. We used to round as a team once a day, get all our tests, round the next day. Now we're rounding multiple times a day on a patient. You'll round, get some tests. You'll round again in the afternoon. Things happen quickly, so for a family to get real-time information is challenging if you're not there. I also tell families, "You know your loved one best. What are you seeing?" Subtle confusion or changes in their cognitive abilities, which is very common when you're hospitalized, particularly when you're older, may be missed by someone who doesn't know the patient. If you treat that early, you can kind of help prevent some of that, so there are lots of reasons to have an advocate for a patient there, for sure. That's one of the risks of hospitalization. I mean, it's well documented, medical errors, and hopefully, there's been an improvement in protocols, but the reality is is that, again, you're institutionalized. There are processes, and as much as there are checks and balances to avoid mistakes, mistakes can happen that can cause harm. It's been well discussed in medicine as an issue in our healthcare system, as well as infection risks, and often hospitalization tends to lead to more treatment. One thing leads to another, so you have to define what your purpose is in the hospitalization. You may know this. What an ER doc told me once, "As soon as a patient comes into the ER, the first question I have, 'Am I sending them home, or am I admitting them?'" I mean, that's the first question they ask. You know, as a hospitalist, I would say, "Okay. When am I discharging this patient?" It was all about the discharge. It's, "What do we need to do to get the patient out?" That doesn't mean we're not concentrating on treating, but there's such pressure to get patients out. So, another thing of having someone be there with the patient, be an advocate, is really advocating for what the vision of the patient needs to be in transitioning out of the hospital, back home or wherever that might be. Dr. Bob: Right. You alluded to this, the experience and the perspective of an emergency physician, and I think another tip for people is really thinking about whether you need to go to the emergency room or not. Give some serious consideration to that, because when an elderly person or a person with complex illness ends up in the emergency room, it's far easier to admit them to the hospital than to discharge them. Whether that's in their best interest or will ultimately result in improvement, or the opposite becomes kind of secondary. Speaking from the perspective of a physician who worked in the ER for 20 years, when an ill or elderly person comes in, ideally we could assess what's going on, determine what needs to happen, and determine if we can safely allow them to go home, which is where they'd rather be, and in many cases that's the safest and best thing for them. But because that takes more time, energy, and puts more risk on us as a physician, the path of least resistance is to call the hospitalist and say, "I've got a 95-year-old who's maybe got a touch of pneumonia and a little fever," and they might fight you, because they don't want to do another admission, but you're going to push that. Then you're going to order all the tests and order all the x-rays to cover yourself. So, there are times when we pick up things, and that kind of a workup and approach is valuable, but there are many times when it's not. Dr. Corbin: Another thing for patient families to realize, is that most physician offices are open from 8:00 to 5:00, but it's often 9:00 to 4:00 or something like that. After hours, and weekends, there's more chance that you're going to have an issue off hours than you are during regular business hours. Our human bodies function or not function 24/7. But one question for patients and families is, "What do I do after hours or on weekends if I have a medical problem?" Unfortunately, by default, if there's an issue after hours, and if you have any kind of significant medical history with advanced illness, no one's going to take the chance that something is missed–so they say, "Go to the emergency room," or, "Go to Urgent Care." That's just what we do. We impact our emergency rooms. It's very expensive care. Most of the time, if you have significant illness, the ER doc's going to feel uncomfortable sending you home, because they don't know you, and it's complicated, and so you end up getting admitted. As a hospitalist, I felt I did a lot of admissions, which were unnecessary. If someone was there to coordinate care at home, and kind of have an oversight, and there was that plan of what to do if it was after hours. That's amazing thing of your service with integrated MD care is that someone who has that layers of care, you know, all this is kind of planned out, and you have that support, and patients are really satisfied because you're not just ... Patients aren't just being sent back to the emergency room, and you get, again, into that cog wheel of treatment, where many patients don't want to be, which is another point. One of the risks of hospitalization is when you go, the medical records, you know, your history, what's been done, there are often duplicated care. You get more imaging tests, and you get more workup that you don't really need. I really advocate for patients and families to take a medical history and have that with them. If you come with a full binder, no one's going to look at it or read it, so it needs to be kind of done by someone with some medical knowledge to very succinctly put the diagnosis and what treatment's been done, so it's well understood, because- Dr. Bob: A summary. Dr. Corbin: We just reinvent the wheel. Again, this new team takes over, and they're kind of obligated to do the workup, and it's probably, in many cases, already done. It doesn't seem like a big deal, until you're in that seat, or you find those tests to be very difficult to get through. You know, to go through an MRI, if you've ever had an MRI, it's not a fun experience. I've had one, generally young and healthy, and it was really tough. Imagine if you're in pain, or have more advances illness, or if you're elderly going through these tests. We don't think about it. We think to go to the hospital; you just do what you need to do. You get these tests, but we don't understand kind of sometimes the physical and emotional toll that that takes on you. Dr. Bob: It's very easy to order the tests, right? It's very easy to order an MRI, or a scan, or another blood test, but even just getting blood drawn, these people, the folks, they're sick. They feel horrible. Dr. Corbin: I used to challenge my ... I used to come in as an attending, whether I had residents or teaching. It was like day number seven of hospitalization, and they had the same blood panel every single day. I'm thinking, "What are you going to see in this blood test that may change what we're doing in management?" I mean, we get in this protocol where we stop thinking critically, and we just start treating patients as a process, and- Dr. Bob: Yeah. And a commodity. Dr. Corbin: It's easy to do. You referenced it earlier, about how when you work in that environment, it's comfortable to you. You know it. When you're not in it, it's over. I remember the first time as a medical student I walked into an intensive care unit. I kind of stood back, and it was just kind of a, "Wow." It was kind of overwhelming. Well, you know, when I was a resident, and I spent a whole month being an attending resident in the ICU, after that month it was ... Even after a month it became pretty routine, and all those bells, and whistles, and machines, and tubes, and everything else became kid of normal, which is kind of scary when you think about it, but you've just kind of normalize to that. We always have to back up and understand it. That's what's so hard to have these conversations with patients and families, to really get them to understand what things may look like as they make different choices about their treatment. I say, "There's no right or wrong answer about the treatment." I think patients need to understand their choices and make the decisions that are best for them, and then we try to support them in that decision. I think to have a good history available with you, be prepared with what your true goals are downstream, so you can share that information with physicians and teams, if you change different healthcare settings, and then really having someone that can really coordinate that care for you. If there's someone in the family that can't do it, and you have the means to have someone else or hire someone to help coordinate that care, just like having someone be with you in the hospital, there's no doubt you're going to get better care. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's critical. Unfortunately, I think once you're in the hospital, it's hard for outsiders to come in. You might have that. So, for me, we do this high level of in-home care and become very intimately connected with our patients and our families. We do a great job of keeping them out of the hospital, because we are available 24/7, and we address things as they come up, and we really try to encourage people to not just rush to the hospital. In general, we're pretty successful at that, but sometimes people end up in the hospital. Even though I have this very intimate relationship and the patients want me and my team to be engaged, the hospital doesn't want that. They don't want outsiders coming in, and it's very difficult to get much information. I'm able to communicate with the hospitalists with some effort, but you can't coordinate anything. It's very difficult to influence the care that's happening, so you have to be able to work with the families, to spend some time with the patients, and allow them to become self-advocating as much as possible. Then get them the heck out the hospital as quick as possible, right? Let's talk for a moment about palliative care, because it really can add a lot of value to the experience for people in the hospital and save them from some future struggles and help guide things more in alignment with their values and wishes. Is palliative care available for every patient in the hospital, or how does somebody get a palliative care team to work with them and support them? Dr. Corbin: That's a very good question. Palliative care, first off, is really available to any patient at any time in their medical illness. It's a whole-person, holistic approach to care, where we address patients' physical needs, but also, as I mentioned, emotional, social, and even spiritual concerns, and try to align our care with what their true goals are for themselves, knowing that those goals may change with time. So it's a fluid situation. But it's really having those conversations and supporting those patients in that goal. It's a team approach, so it's a physician, and a nurse, and a social worker, and often a chaplain, and also maybe sometimes ancillary services as well, so it's a team approach as well. There's a lot of talk the last year that unfortunately palliative care, someone gets palliative care by chance. We know that palliative care is beneficial. We know it enhances the quality of life. We know patients like it. There's less caregiver stress. There's better end of life experience in death when that time ultimately comes. Patients can tolerate their medical treatments better when they have palliative care involved. We know all the outcomes look really good. Palliative care across the board is inaccessible to all patients in every care setting, and so it becomes who do you know? It's, "Oh. Well, I know my neighbor's Dr. Corbin, who does palliative care. Maybe you can call him," and so, oh, I get involved. It's kind of word of mouth and by chance, which is fortunate. Hopefully, in the future, we get palliative care across the spectrum. Palliative care started in a hospital setting, and now over 70% of hospitals in the country have some sort of palliative care team. For example, Scripps Health has palliative care team at all five or their campus and hospitals. So, patients in the hospital can request palliative care consultation. Usually, it's up to the attending physician, whether that's the specialist or the hospitalist, to request a palliative care consult. Dr. Bob: Can a patient or family request a consult? Dr. Corbin: It depends on the hospital. For example, at one of my hospitals, where I started the palliative care team, we made it so anybody could request a palliative care consult, family, the patient. It doesn't have to be from a physician. In that setting, we sent a nurse in to really evaluate the situation, to see what was happening, and then to talk to the attending physician and say, "Can palliative care ...?" But it was a real challenge, in the beginning, getting in the door. Dr. Bob: I would imagine. Dr. Corbin: In many ways, we're seen as a threat, or we do another layer of care that then can be seen as getting more complicated, but the reality is is that we're working through all these issues that really are not discussed. So, that's in the hospital. Most hospitals have palliative care, so if there's a desire to have palliative care if you ask. Often you can look online or read about the hospital, and they advertise their palliative program. The big gap is outpatient palliative care, so what happens to the patient when they go home? If they go to a skilled nursing facility, most likely they don't have palliative care. If you go home, most likely you're not going to have home palliative care, although there are some programs that exist now. There are different levels of what that means. So, if you've seen one home palliative program, you've probably seen one home palliative home program in terms of structure. Some are just nurse-driven. Some are just physician-driven. Dr. Bob: Or physician assistant, but none of them have figured out the model so that they can really deliver. Dr. Corbin: And the barrier's really been about reimbursement, who can pay for that. Unfortunately, that hasn't been figured out. There are trends now with private insurances, as well as possibly even Medicare, starting to pay for kind of more home palliative kind of bundle payments towards that, which will hopefully gain more access. Dr. Bob: Apparently Medi-Cal, which is the California Medicaid program, as of January 1st, is now paying for some version, some form of palliative care. Dr. Corbin: I know Blue Shield of California is paying for home palliative services for some of their patients they identify that need that. So, the other is outpatient palliative care in clinics. Now that's the third tier, so it's been kind of hospital-based, an attempt to do more home-based palliative care, and now actually doing even farther upstream where patients in a clinic setting can get palliative care has been pretty rare. I started an outpatient palliative care clinic at Scripps, which we ran in a radiation oncology center, which is a great setting, and I saw patients in the clinic just to kind of see patients kind of farther upstream. The powerful thing of that is that we were having these conversations not in the hospital when you're in the crisis mode. Because what happens? You can have all of this great plan and this great conversation in the hospital and know what you want to do, but as soon as the patient leaves the hospital, it all falls apart, because there's not the infrastructure or process to support it. You go back into the same process of delivering medical care that we do, which is going to your primary office, going to your specialist, and after hours, if you don't have availability, you go back to the hospital. How do you break that cycle? Dr. Bob: Your family was trying to figure out how to find the right resources for you. Dr. Corbin: So, seeing patients in a clinic upstream is extremely powerful. I would encourage patients with any non-curable illness, whether that's heart failure, or early dementia, or Parkinson's Disease, or an advanced stage cancer,–even if you're getting full treatment, you expect to get treatment, your illness will hopefully be well controlled for years to come–still you should have a palliative care type conversation with a physician or a team that understands the longterm vision. One, you start to have conversations that you don't want to have in crisis mode, or you don't want to have way down a couple of years from now when you're being admitted to the hospital. That's not the right time to have these conversations, to really, truly know what you want. It also relieves this burden. It's always the elephant in the room, you know, what do I truly want, and having these conversations. Frankly, having conversations about death, and what it may look like, and what your preferences are if you do that, it's not threatening when you do. If you do it when death is a real possibility– Dr. Bob: Death is looming. Right? Dr. Corbin: ... it's incredibly frightening and overwhelming. Dr. Bob: For everybody, including the physicians. Dr. Corbin: Including the physicians, so by fault, we don't have that conversation. So, the patients that can have these conversations, and they want ... Studies suggest that patients want to have these conversations. Dr. Bob: And experience would confirm that. Dr. Corbin: We just don't do a good job, as physicians or clinicians, having those conversations. We just don't want to have the conversation. Palliative care in the hospital, there is some in the outpatient clinic. For myself now, I have two days a week where I do outpatient palliative care, where I can see patients in a clinic setting. I'm working within an oncology group, but I'm open to more than just oncology, so if patients know about me, they can come and see me. The purpose is to say, "Hey. What's going on medically? What's going on in your life? Where are your stressors?" You know, I ask patients, "How do you feel your quality of life is? What is your distress? How are you sleeping? How are you eating? What are you eating? How is your nutrition? All of these are things that we generally don't talk about with patients. But it's all about how can we identify things that are important to you? I had a younger patient, with advanced cancer who, after a long conversation, two things in her life were missing. One, the ability to still do yoga, and two, she had some experience with acupuncture, and she was interested in trying that again, but she was kind of bummed that she tired and couldn't do yoga anymore. Through connections, and friends, and again, palliative care by chance, I called a couple of friends, and one goes once a week now to help her do restorative yoga, and another goes once a week to do acupuncture. She's just thrilled. She's thriving. Her tumor markers are decreasing. She's responding to her chemotherapy. Her sense of wellness is much better than what it was before. She has hope. She's confident. She's living with her cancer better. I guarantee you in a normal healthcare environment, that would never come up. If she didn't seek palliative care, no one would ever have the conversation about setting her up with home yoga or acupuncture. It just doesn't happen. Dr. Bob: It sounds like a great concept. I kind of wish I had thought of that. Dr. Corbin: And you did. You know, what you do, the services that you can provide through integrated MD care, for example, the music therapy or aromatherapy, or massage therapy, or acupuncture, many patients don't think about that being important, but it's incredible how that can help you tolerate treatment better, reduce stress, take away some of the fears that you have. Ultimately we're deciding what are you afraid of. Is it what's coming tomorrow? Do you make up a story in your mind of what your future's going to look like, or you make decisions based on that fear, or you have conversations about that? Do you understand the facts medically, from a physician and have someone who can tell you, "This is most likely what will happen, and there's evidence to support that,"? And you get rid of this stuff we make up that scares us, and then you start to trust yourself. You start to trust life to give you what you need, and patients start to respond to treatment and can tolerate things at a whole other level. Dr. Bob: If those things that would enhance your life, and those people, and those therapies are presented to you and through trusted sources, and you open yourself up to them, I've seen, as you are expressing, I've seen tremendous, tremendous transformations in people. I've seen people, who had a prognosis of a month, and they were being told that they've got a month or six weeks to live, open themselves to receiving these therapies and ultimately live for a year and a half with an incredible quality of life. The reason for that, it's multifactorial. Part of it is the actual therapeutic benefit. A lot of it is just this connection that happens with life through other people, who are there to reach into your spiritual being, to help bring out the joy. So, that's a powerful, powerful thing that there's really no way to really put any kind of value on. Dr. Corbin: It's really taking your life back from whatever disease you're dealing with. You think about it, you know, you're whole day. I saw a patient yesterday who wanted to come to my clinic, but he said, "You know, but every single day I have a doctor's appointment for the next two weeks. I don't know if I want to come see ..." I mean, your life revolves around testing, and diagnosis, and treatment, and you lose the things that were important to you, like yoga and massage therapy that you used to do. Dr. Bob: Or time with your grandchildren, or time at the beach. Dr. Corbin: Or time to read or whatever. So, if we can challenge patients to make space for that and to remain who they are as a person through their treatment, it's invaluable. You know, unfortunately, I was never taught that in medical school. We're not taught how to take care of that aspect of patients. It's been, you know, over 20 years since I've done that. I think the medical education system has responded to that in many ways, and it's getting better, but the reality is is that we don't ... We talked about this earlier. I'm taught how to do a history and physical, and the things that I ask in my social history, like, "Do you smoke? Do you drink?" You know, those sorts of things, but I'm not taught, "What is most important to you? How is your stress level now? How is your nutrition?" We just don't ask those questions. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Certainly not, "Where do you want to be when you die? Who do you want to be around you?" Because for me, and for you as well, the idea is starting with the end in mind. If you can get people to share what that experience, how they would like that experience to be, it tells you a lot about who they are, and then you can help to guide all the care that happens. Dr. Corbin: That conversation intertwines a lot of spiritual, religious, philosophy, all of these things, right? But it's not about that conversation. I mean, I can have a very religious person or a very spiritual person who still hasn't truly thought about the way they want their end of life to look like. Sometimes who I think might be the most religious or spiritual person struggles the most with that decision, because they haven't thought about it in the context of that. No matter what your belief system is, no matter what your support system is, if you're challenged to think about it, it's an exercise we should all do. Dr. Bob: And people will often spend a lot of time thinking about how it should be for others and what they're comfortable with, and what they believe. But it's very difficult for many people to actually go down that path and take it to the point of imagining and trying to identify what's most important for them at the time of their death. Dr. Corbin: So, we've covered a lot. Dr. Bob: Yup. Always. Dr. Corbin: We've touched on a lot of issues. I think, hopefully, this is really valuable for people to get some real, heartfelt discussion from physicians who have been right in the fray. Right? I feel like we have a kinship here. We both love medicine. We both love medical people. We have a lot of respect for the passion, and the heart, and the compassion of healthcare providers. We're sensitive to the fact that they are often working in environments that don't allow them to practice optimally, and it gets very frustrating and discouraging. We see how wonderful the medical technology is and what it can do for people, and at the same time, we see how that has created this propensity to use that technology, and wield it un-responsibly, and neglect sometimes what's really and truly most important to people which can be to encourage them to take a different path. Dr. Bob: We have a lot of experience. Hopefully, we've shared some things for people to think about, and I think we're going to have lots of opportunities to continue exploring, discussing the pros, the cons, the good, the bad, but I'm excited, because we, in our practice, get to fill the gaps. Dr. Corbin: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: That's why we started Integrated MD Care. That's why we're doing this podcast. That's why we're doing a lot of the things is we're responding, we're taking a risk, right? Dr. Corbin: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: We're stepping outside the norm, and we're facing some folks who don't quite understand what we're doing, how we're doing it, or why we're doing it, but I think we're both committed to the process and to serving people at the highest level. Dr. Corbin: Absolutely. I agree. At the end of the day, we need to listen to the patient, keep the patient in the middle, provide patients with the best quality and beneficial care, and that really comes from talking to the patient and understanding what gives them the most value. That's what it's all about. Then we need to help continue to push our healthcare system to give the infrastructure to support patients with that. It's really exciting to see the work that you've been doing, and the outcomes that you've had with patients and families and really helping patients be able to transcend those gaps to get the perfect alignment of care that they deserve. You know? And making it not about palliative care by chance or this type of care by chance, because someone happens to know you, but really hoping things like this podcast will start to trickle out there, so patients are aware of what is available. Hopefully, we'll push the expectations higher, and our healthcare system will start responding to that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's our goal. Dr. Corbin: Look forward to it. Dr. Bob: In the meantime, we're doing it, and we're letting people pay for it, to recognize the value that they receive. The non-profit foundation that's just been created, Integrated Life Care Foundation, will help to provide funding for people to receive this level of care when they don't have the resources to do it. I'd like to now officially welcome you to the Integrated MD Care team, as one of the providing physicians and one of the leaders of this movement. Dr. Corbin: I look forward to it. A lot of work to be done. Dr. Bob: Absolutely. Thanks for coming on the show, and we'll be connecting again soon.
Meet Julie Chrisco, a nurse practitioner with Integrated MD Care, who is passionate about helping people have the best experiences as the age as well as creating peace at end of life. Transcript Dr. Bob: Today I am really happy to be introducing you all to one of the newer additions to our team here at Integrated MD Care, Julie Chrisco. Julie is a nurse practitioner who's got tons of experience working with people at the end of life, both in palliative care and hospice. She is I think as passionate about this work as I am, which is why she's here working with us. Julie, welcome. Julie Chrisco: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Absolutely. You're very, very welcome. Thanks for taking the time. I'm really looking forward to having people get a sense of who you are and why this work is so important to you, and what you bring to it. This whole life and death conversation idea is really just to allow other people to listen in and hear the discussions that are so meaningful and poignant. I think as we have conversations day in and day out about some of the aspects of care for our patients and the ways that we're trying to support them and enhance their lives, and the challenges, I think so much of it is just so fascinating. I wish that people could be more consistently listening in and hearing these things because it would make, I think it would be ... It's very, not only is it interesting, but I think it is helpful for them to see how things can be addressed, and how challenges can be overcome, and how the final phase of a person's life can be supported. Again, thanks for being here. You know what, I'm going to jump right in. I'm going to talk a little bit about some of your background, and we'll add that in. Bottom line is you've been a nurse for many years. You've been in the hospice world for quite a while now. You're a nurse practitioner doing deep, deep work with people who are dealing with challenges, who are in many cases dying, taking their last breaths. Is it okay if I ask you a couple personal questions? Julie Chrisco: Sure. Dr. Bob: I figured that was the case. One of the things that I like to do with the guests who come on the show is to get a sense of how they feel about death, about the experiences that they've had, so that, because obviously there has to be a certain comfort level with death to do this work right? Julie Chrisco: True. Dr. Bob: I mean if you were afraid of talking about it, if it was anxiety provoking, I imagine you wouldn't be really effective at taking care of people who are in this phase. I'm just going to put it out there. What are your thoughts? Do you have any fear of death? What are your thoughts about death? How do you view it? Julie Chrisco: I can truly say I'm not afraid to die. I'm not going to lie, but there are things that I question, and I wonder, but I wouldn't call it fear. Fear is one of those loom and doom type things that I don't, that's not my perception of death. I've been involved with a multitude of deaths from patients that iv cared for to family members. In my opinion, death is just as life as part of what exists. Births come, and death comes too. It's just it's all part of the continuum of life. Therefore, I am not fearful of ending my life. I wonder and I worry maybe, I don't know if worry is even, I just I truly honestly want to capacitate myself, or be encompassed in a group of people, or my family, who are on the same page as myself because I know that end of life can be super peaceful, and comfortable, and wonderfully meaningful. That's what I need for my end of life experience to be, but I also know that there are tragic end of life experiences that happen where people don't, aren't allowed the ability to have that sort of thing. I don't fear that. I don't fear a quick, instantaneous death. I fear more of the human suffering that can go on. But I know that if you encompass yourself in a team of like-minded human beings and people who are on the same page as you, that doesn't have to look like that. Being in this work for as long as I have, I've seen so many beautiful end of life experiences. I will say that I have a really strong faith in the Lord and the hereafter. I truly believe that the hereafter is way better than the human suffering that goes on here on Earth. Yeah, there is, it's a peaceful feeling to think that there's not going to be pain and suffering in the hereafter. That looms in me, or resides in me, in a way that death is not scary to me. Dr. Bob: I imagine ... Well, thanks for sharing that, and I resonate with that very well. I also have this sense of how critical it is to ensure that the final phase of life, before we move into the hereafter, that the final phase of life is as you described supported and peaceful. I think we've both seen that that can be accomplished. That with the right planning, with the right conversations, with the right support, death, the actual act of death, does not have to be traumatic and painful and a struggle. Would you agree with that? Julie Chrisco: Totally. I mean I have truly seen some situations where I've walked in and thought, "Oh, this is not going to go well." With the appropriate conversation and the team, and the family, everybody being on board and everybody collaborating to an effort to make this final chapter of a human's life the best that it can possibly be, it has been so beautiful that it often times brings me to tears because what a great way to transition. Just like you want your pregnancies and the birth of a child to be very beautiful and peaceful and wonderful, you also want that for your end of life experience. It can go really, really well, and it can be one of those things that sort of almost takes your breath away, or it brings you to a moment of complete humbleness because of how well orchestrated it can be. Dr. Bob: I love that. The orchestration part is to me; I get this image of like a beautiful symphony that everything is working together. Really it can bring you to tears. It's odd, not a lot of people would think about death that way, but I think those of us who are in this field and in a position to put those things in place, and have seen how a well-orchestrated end of life experience can go, it does feel that way. It feels like you're creating almost a work of art- Julie Chrisco: Right. Dr. Bob: By doing that. Why doesn't it happen? When doesn't it happen? In your experience, what keeps people from having that really peaceful beautiful end of life experience? Julie Chrisco: I think there's a multitude of things. I think there's the resistance to death. I think that's a huge component. Whether that resistance to death is a personal thing, like an actual patient, has the resistance to the death and therefore they sort of resist all levels of transition, or if there's a family, or friend, or whoever, caregiver situation where they're super resistant to the end of life. I think that can create turmoil and chaos in that. Another huge thing is for the patient to not have been allowed the space to explore what the end of life experience is going to be for them. I think it's a conversation that you and I are accustomed to, but I would say the norm amount of people in the world, it's not a conversation they're having. They're not telling their children or their grandchildren, or their spouses, this is how I want it to be, or they aren't even going there in their mind because if they go there in their mind, that means it's imminent, that might make the process happen faster. All those types of things I think are huge obstacles for people not being able to have the picturesque end of life experience that we all grant, or we hope for everyone. Dr. Bob: My sense is ... Yeah, I agree with all of that. My sense is that there's just a lot of avoidance. It takes a unique; I think it takes a unique sort of caregiver or healthcare professional to break through that. I feel like there's a discomfort with a lot of healthcare providers as well. Most physicians, unfortunately even doctors who are taking care of a lot of older adults, it seems like they're not having the conversations about what is coming. Julie Chrisco: Right. Dr. Bob: I see that there's probably a number of different reasons for that. One is just their inherent discomfort. They don't get trained in it, and they don't quite know how to broach it, and it creates a certain amount of discomfort. The other is I think lack of time. In the traditional healthcare system, the physicians just don't have time to be starting that conversation because it's not a 15- or 20-minute conversation. Julie Chrisco: Right. Dr. Bob: It feels to me like so much struggle can be avoided if we somehow are able to find the right mechanism to have the conversations with the patients and the families, and figure out to sort of break through the discomfort with that and resistance. That's a talent I think, so I'm not quite sure how to get the masses. I know how we do it with our patients. We have the luxury of having these relationships. We're in their homes. We have multiple opportunities to broach this. But in the kind of traditional system, we need to figure out a way to get the providers comfortable opening up those conversations. Julie Chrisco: For sure. Dr. Bob: Yeah. There's work to do still, right? Julie Chrisco: Of course. Our work is never-ending. Dr. Bob: I'm sure that in the course of your work, as in mine, we encounter people who are nearing death. They may not be, well sometimes they're days away, sometimes they could be weeks or months away. When you encounter somebody who is clearly afraid of dying, and sometimes they don't quite know why they just know that the whole idea is really just terrifying to them, what are your, how do you tend to approach that? Do you have a process or a system that you use? Julie Chrisco: I would honestly, I will say that I think the fear of death stems from numerous reasons. It's really important for me as the provider to sit down and have a conversation with them about where does this fear stem from. It could be the fear of the unknown about what happens in the hereafter. It could be the fear of how this process will go, the symptomatology that may evolve. Will it be painful? Will I suffer? Those types of things. Or it could be a fear of what's going to happen to my loved ones when I'm gone. Being a mother of young boys, I would honestly say that the only worry I have about not being here tomorrow would be how will my kids function the way that they function now without me. I think you have to start the conversation by really understanding what fears them. Older patients don't really so much worry about their kids and how they're going to function because they're adults, and they have their own lives. I guess getting to the source of what the fear is, whatever the reason for the fear. Then I would encourage a conversation about the reason, and try to understand why and where it stems from. I may want to show them some of my own personal stories about death and dying to create a perspective on the situation. Because I've been so blessed to be involved in numerous end of life, from young people to old people, and personal family members, I can gleam a little bit of personal perspective, even though that's not always necessarily what they want, but I just try to help them understand, or try to have them identify the fear and realize and determine whether it's a true fear, like if it's a real thing, or if it's a fear that they've sort of built up. Real fear is, yes, there's a lion coming at me, or I'm going to fall off a bridge. Or is something that they're just, they've built up to be a fear and when you can break it down, or minimize and talk through all of the components of the fear, is it a legitimate fear or is it something we can talk through and work out. Death, as I've said, can be a beautiful continuum of life. I would strongly reassure people not to fear the unknown. There's a large difference between perceived fear and real fear. To focus on the fear of the unknown is really a perceived fear, and you can ... When you identify that it's not a legitimate fear, it's something that we've sort of created through a conversation in our heads, then you can minimize that quite a bit. Dr. Bob: Yup. That's awesome. That's some really great insight and advice. I completely agree that the, I think the key, in my experience, the key is like you say identifying the fear, bringing it into the light. When it's lurking in the shadows, when it's just stuck back in the recesses of our mind, occasionally shooting out its little tendrils, there's no way to really deal with it, manage it effectively. It really does need to be brought out. In that way, then we can help people understand where it stems from and get a better sense of like you say, whether it's based on reality or it's based on some stories that they've been told or have for whatever reason come to believe. Julie Chrisco: Right. Dr. Bob: I'll tell you with my patients, like you I get to know them incredibly well. We spend a lot of time together. One of the things that I truly feel the most blessed about and have the most gratitude for is being in that space of communicating with people, sharing intimately with them when they know their life is coming to an end. The wisdom that comes up, just the true humanity that gets shared, and I get to be a part of, is a gift beyond anything I could have imagined. What I find is that very few people have this sort of existential angst, especially as you get into the really later years. Most of them either believe in an afterlife of some kind and they're comfortable with that, or they think that everything is just over, there is no afterlife, it's just this is it, when they're gone, they're gone. Those people, for the most part, are comfortable with either. What is really keeping people awake and kind of freaking them out, is how they're going to die. What's it going to be like at the very end? Are they going to be in pain? Are they going to be struggling to breathe? Are they going to be aware of what's happening and unable to do anything about it? I think that this is a fairly ubiquitous fear that the final moments of life are going to be terrifying. When we get to assure our patients and their families that that will not happen, that we are incredibly skilled at making sure that there is no struggle that people will perceive of when their life is ending, it almost, it changes everything for them. Julie Chrisco: Yeah. Dr. Bob: They can have this peace that well whatever is happening is happening. I can't necessarily change what's going to happen, but now I feel like I don't have to worry that it's going to be terrifying and that I'm going to struggle. Once they have that, and once the families feel that way, there's just palpable relief. Everything from that point forward feels a little bit better, or a lot better, or amazingly better. Have you experienced that as well? Julie Chrisco: Yeah for sure. For sure. When you can ... I mean just even in a conversation, an hour or a two-hour visit with a patient and family, and allowing the conversation to happen. Then when you leave that visit, they're like a whole different body of people. The patient feels better. The family feels better. Everybody's sort of at ease in a place that you didn't know existed for them because when you met them, or when you started the conversation, everybody was so angst and everything was intense. Really it's my goal when I communicate with people is to generate some ease, to generate some comfort in knowing that A, I'm going to be there. I'm your resource, and I'm going to be there no matter what you need. You can call me; you can reach out to me. I'm here for you. And to create that whole I've been through this hundreds of time, and I can tell you from past experiences here's the way it can be, and here's what we're going to do for your loved one to make sure that it looks like that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That's a beautiful thing. Not everyone does that. That doesn't happen universally. One of the things that I tell people about when they're looking for that support for the end of life phase, when they're looking for a hospice agency or physician care, that they really have to, that there are people who care as deeply as we do and are willing to be there and make those assurances, but it's not a sure thing. People need to be, and families, need to be advocating strongly for themselves and on behalf of their loved ones to find those resources, to find those people who can give them that assurance. It's there, but it's not a given that just because you get on hospice that that's the kind of support and care and assurance you're going to receive. People like you, and I'll say me, we're out there, but we're not everywhere. Julie Chrisco: Unfortunately we're not. Dr. Bob: I think, and I don't know why ... Well, I guess I do know why, but I feel like it's so unfortunate when people are having this experience, and they're living with this fear, and those fears are either not addressed, or they're not brought out. People will sometimes continue having that intense level of fear up until the time that they're taking their last breaths. If the conversations haven't happened, if the connection hasn't happened where somebody is coming in to personally assure you that they will be there to give you and do whatever is necessary to maximize your comfort and minimize your distress, there are unfortunately people who are dying with a lot of distress and fear. Would you agree with that? Julie Chrisco: Yes, definitely. Dr. Bob: So what really irks me, and I guess part of what our mission is, is to see that that doesn't happen when it can be avoided, which is I would say the vast majority of the time. Julie Chrisco: Yeah. Dr. Bob: We continue to have great work to do. I'm really grateful that you have the same passion for that, and the philosophy, and just the comfort of being that person who's going to be there for people to support them regardless of what they're going through. I didn't get a chance to sort of introduce you more thoroughly and talk about all of your incredible accolades, and your education and training, but I do want to if I could just read the last part of what you have in your biography because I think it's really poignant and it will help people get a better sense of ... I think people get a sense of who you are just from listening to this conversation, but I'm going to read this anyway if that's okay. Julie Chrisco: Yeah, that's great. Dr. Bob: Julie is extremely passionate about allowing patients to do what is best for themselves and creating a journey that augments their wishes. She enjoys working with a team of professionals to enhance the quality of life for our patients and their families. Julie is currently working at Integrated MD Care, that's us, where her love of human beings and her drive to produce the highest level of care go hand in hand. That's beautiful, and that's what it's really about right. It's about love for people. Julie Chrisco: And that at the end of the day is why I love my job, and I can get up every morning and say I love what I do. Really all this work is connecting with humans and then using some knowledge that I gained through nursing to make it a little better. But at the end of the day, really it's just about making a human connection and allowing people to know that I'm going to do the best I can for them, and provide the best level of care, and love them no matter who they are, what color their skin is, where they come from spiritually, no matter who they are as a human being. That's the benefit of this work, the human connection and the relationships that I get to build with these people. That's what makes getting up every morning so meaningful for me. Dr. Bob: I get that, and I so appreciate it. That's why you are such a valued member of our team. I guess the one thing ... I want to cut this off before too long because we could continue this conversation for hours, but that love of people, that human connection, it's so integral as life is winding down and in the very final stage of life. But what's been amazing to me, and I think you're seeing this now as a member of the team, is when we introduce that, our style of care, this total love for people and desire for personal connection, and we bring that into the care plan of people who aren't necessarily dying, who are just elderly, they're people with dementia, they're people with other health challenges. When we bring people, who feel the same way, who are there to make connections, and then just to facilitate and bring their own unique talents and skills to the mix, people they blossom. People who had a prognosis of a month or two to live because of lymphoma, or people who have heart failure, or there's a myriad of different conditions and things that we've seen, we start bringing in massage therapists and music therapists, people who work with them on breathing exercises, or physical exercises, and with the basic tenant of making human connection and trying to improve a person's life moment by moment, that is so powerful. It's just kind of blowing my mind to see that happening time and time again. Julie Chrisco: For sure. Dr. Bob: I get passionate about that. Julie, it was really wonderful to have the conversation with you. I wanted to share you with the listeners. Over time, I imagine that we'll have an opportunity to come on together again and provide updates on how things are going with the practice and our lives. Thank you very much for being here. Julie Chrisco: Thank you for inviting me. This was a great conversation.
Derek Humpry is an author and principal founder of the Hemlock Society (now Compassion & Choices). Derek shares his poignant story about helping his wife, who was terminally ill, end her life and how he founded the Hemlock Society. Derek's website: FinalExit.org Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome to A Life and Death Conversation with Dr. Bob Uslander. I'm very excited to introduce you to today's guest, who is a gentleman who I recently had the pleasure of meeting and listening to during a presentation at a conference. And I just knew when I met and heard him speak that he is somebody who you needed to hear from. I could go on for quite a long time listing his achievements and his accolades in this introduction, but I don't want to take too much of our valuable time away from the conversation, so I will just give a little glimpse of the instruction to Mr. Derek Humphry, who is the founder of the Hemlock Society of the USA, past president of the World Federation of Right to Die Societies, and Derek has been an incredibly strong proponent of people having the ability to determine how and when they their lives will end when they are struggling. He's been very active through his entire life in this regard and is in large part responsible for the movement through in this country that is certainly effective here on the West Coast, in California, in Oregon, in Washington that has allowed people to have a peaceful end of life. And I owe him gratitude because he has allowed me to delve into a part of my career that has really been incredibly gratifying, and he's brought great relief to many, many people around the world. So, Derek, I just want to introduce you and thank you from the bottom of my heart for all that you've done. So welcome. Derek Humphry: Well, hello. Thank you very much for inviting me. It's been a worthwhile journey. I founded the Hemlock Society in 1980 when I lived in Santa Monica and developed it from there. And it was, I didn't do it in any obviously pioneering way thought, but it proved to be the start of the right-to-choose-to-die movement in America as we grew and grew and fought off our critics and published little books and held conferences, the right-to-choose-to-die movement swelled and improved across America ever since 1980. Dr. Bob: So let me ask, how did this all start? I know, and I heard the story, but I'd like people to hear where this movement originated and how it started for you. Derek Humphry: Yes. I was living in London. I was a reporter on the London Sunday Times. And I had a good marriage, a wife, and three sons, and we were getting along fine. And it's great fun bringing up three sons. But suddenly in 1973 my wife, Jean, said that she had a lump in her breast. We rushed her to the hospital, and various testing and so forth. And they had to perform a radical mastectomy, much to her shock and all of our shock. She recovered from that as best she could, but we have further testing of her lymph nodes and blood count and all the rest of it. And it showed that she had cancer deep in her system. It was too late. But we fought, and she fought, took all medical help available, kept her spirits up looking after the family and so forth. She kept it only in a close circle of friends or family did she say that she had cancer. But in about a year it turned to bone cancer, very painful, very difficult to be moving at all except with heavy pain medications. And then after nearly two years, it was really serious, and she nearly died. She was in the hospital in Oxford, England, getting the best treatment that was available back in 1975, and she recovered from one bout, and the doctor thought she wouldn't come out of that. But she did, and she had a fighting spirit. Then came my epiphany. She sat up in bed feeling pretty well in the hospital bed, and I was visiting her. And she said, "Derek, I want you to do something for me." I said, "What's that?" She said, "I've had enough of this pain and unconsciousness. It's getting near the end. I want to die at home. I don't want ..." She took hospitals pretty well, but she was in the cancer ward, and she'd seen too many people die with the families rushing in in the middle of the night to say their goodbyes and a lot of pain and tears. She said, "I want to die at home. I also want to end my life at the point when I feel the quality of my life is gone and that there's no more hope and no more chance of living. And I want you to help me." There wasn't a right-to-die movement in America or Britain to speak of. There were little token meetings, but it was not a subject of public discussion or knowledge. I think I would have had to go to a dictionary to look up the word euthanasia or so forth. I said, "What do you want me to do?" She said, "I want you to go ..." In a way, she prefigured the laws. She didn't know she was doing this, prefigured the laws that are coming into place in six states in America. And she said, "I want you to go to a doctor, explain what the situation is, and ask him for lethal drugs in which at the time of my choosing, I'm not ready yet, but it won't be far off, time of my choosing, I want to be able to take my life immediately in my bed at home with family nearby and so forth." I said instinctively, I know I didn't philosophize about it or ... "Okay. I'll help you." And- Dr. Bob: Do you recall what your initial reaction was to that? Of course, you wanted to be supportive, but did you have ... Do you remember how you felt about doing that at the time, conflicted? Derek Humphry: I remember saying to her, "If I was in your position, I would be asking you the same," so that I comforted her by saying, "We're on the same wavelength." I didn't want her to die at all, but having seen her pain and suffering for the last two years, well, understood why she would ask. She was a very strong, independent woman and knew her own mind. She'd seen her mother die about 10 years earlier of lung cancer, and she had to be with her father at her mother's bedside. I wasn't there. I was looking after the children somewhere else. The mother died an awful death apparently. She didn't realize she was dying, and the pain control was terrible. If I'd known about it at the time, I would have lodged a complaint against the doctor. But I wasn't on the scene. But this obviously triggered in Jean that when her time was closing, that she was going to do it differently than her poor mother had dealt with it. So I went to ... I puzzled over what I should do, how to get the drugs, and I thought, "I don't want to involve her own GP or lead cancer specialist in Oxford." I didn't feel it was right to involve them. They were good people, good men, and women, very helpful, but I've been a journalist in London. I knew a certain doctor who we'd worked on stories about medicine before, and I thought, "That's the fellow." So I went to see him, took him to dinner, and I said to him, told him what the situation was, and he questioned me closely about Jean's illness, the state it was, what we'd been through, roughly what sort of medications and so forth, and where she was. He turned to me and said, "She has no quality of life left. I will help." And he gave me the lethal drugs with which to; she could end her life. We shook hands on the bargain that I would never reveal his name, that that would be secret, and it's been secret to this day, although people have asked me who he was. I took the drugs home. I said to Jean, "I have the drugs. They're locked away in the medicine cabinet out of the way." And we got on with life, and she got on with life as best she could. She took another chemotherapy, which gave some momentary relief. And we had a happy Christmas in the end of 1974; I think that was. And then but by February, March, she was very, very ill and taking a great deal of what in England they call hospice mix. No, in America they call it hospice mix. In England, it's called Brompton cocktail. It's a mixture of drugs that suit one's particular illness. It's a sort of trial and error until the doctors can work out what this particular patient handles best. So we had that. And we continued, and things got worse. Then her ribs broke in a sort of accident, and that seemed to be her benchmark. She couldn't get to the bathroom anymore. She could hardly move. She couldn't get up in bed without a massive amount of painkillers. She couldn't sit up in bed. And I knew the end was coming, and I knew this question was going to come, so I was thinking about it but saying nothing. Then one day I got her to sit, managed to get her to sit up after taking the pain medications, and she calmly turned to me, and she said, "Is this the day?" That's a pretty rough question to answer when you're the ... We'd been married for 22 years and three children and had a happy life together. And I sort of gulped and said, "Well, if the pain is getting worse, you'll probably have ..." I was sort of stalling for the moment. I didn't want to rush an answer. "You'll probably have to go back into the hospital at the end of the week for more pain relief." And she said, "I'll die at one o'clock today." And so that was ... She was a very outspoken north country English woman and- Dr. Bob: Knew her mind. Derek Humphry: ... we talked all morning, and we shared our memories. The marriage had been very solid, but we'd had two quarrels, one over which house to buy and one over my moving to London from Manchester. We'd settled them, but she brought them up, and she said, "Well, I was right about the house, and you were right about moving to London." So we settled the two quarrels that we had. And she told me to go tell her father what had happened so that it wasn't like her mother's death, that hers was much more straightforward. At one o'clock, if she hadn't said, "Get it," I would have just continued talking. I left it, the initial movement, I left up to her. At one o'clock she said, "Go and get it." So I went and got the doctor's drugs, mixed them in a cup of coffee, put a lot of sugar in, and brought it back to her. I told the boys were lying around in the house. The previous evening Jean had sent me on a fool's errand to get something from the supermarket, and during that, my absence, she called in the boys and told them that she was going to die tomorrow. I was not part of that. She wanted me out of it for that communication with her sons. Dr. Bob : How old were the boys at that point, Derek? Do you recall? Derek Humphry: Sort of 17, 18, 19. I can't remember exactly. Dr. Bob: So young men. They were- Derek Humphry: But late teens. Yes, young men. And they'd seen her suffering. They'd helped me nurse her, helped. When I was absent, they would provide her drugs and things like that. They knew the situation, and they knew their mother was a determined woman. If she said something was going to happen and she was going to do, then she was going to do it. So I took the drugs in to her. As I passed through the living room, I said to the boys, "She's preparing to die," so that they were up to mark on it. I put the drugs down beside her, and she said, "Is that it?" I said, "Yes. If you drink that cup of coffee, you will die." She accepted that. I got on the bed and gave her a last hug and a kiss. We said our goodbyes. I got back on my chair so that she could lift the coffee straight up without ... And she picked up the mug of coffee and gulped it down, drink it down. And I sat there watching in awe. And before she passed out, she said, "Goodbye, my love." And that was it. She lingered for a while. Then she vomited a little, which frightened me. I thought, "Oh, dear." I didn't know at the time that right to die was not a subject of ... I never investigated closely or not ... She should've taken some antiemetics. Dr. Bob: As we do now. Derek Humphry: ... to prepare the stomach for that extremely toxic drug that was going to kill her. Anyway, she didn't vomit all that much. And she just quietly died. Dr. Bob: Were the boys with you at the time? Were they in the room or were they? Derek Humphry: No. They were in the next room. But when I went out of the room, I know they went into the room when she was dead and apparently said goodbye to their mother, and after my presence. And I called the local GP who looked after her for about two years and told him that Jean was dead. And he came out. He said, "I'll be around in an hour or so and sign the death certificate." When he came in and looked at her, and I kept out of the room deliberately. I didn't want to muddy the waters in any way or whatnot. And I was out in the garden, but he wrote down death from carcinomatosis, massive cancer. If he'd wanted to speak to me, I was there in the garden, and he could've called and said, "I want to talk to you, Derek," but he didn't. And he thought it was a natural death from her powerful cancer. Dr. Bob: Which it would've been before too long had she not taken this step. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: But it would've come after quite a bit, potentially quite a bit more struggle and suffering, right? Derek Humphry: Yes. Well, certainly she would've been dead within a month. That was definitely on the cards. Her doctors had told me that they would look ... They'd say, "She can come in to Oxford Hospital, and we'll look after her, or she can die at home." And I said, "She wants to die at home." And they said, "Fine. We'll provide as much comfort as we can." So that was how it ended. Dr. Bob: And that was 40 ... How old was she? Derek Humphry: She as 42. Dr. Bob: And that was 43 years ago, 1974. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: So 43 years ago. It sounds like you can ... I know that you've told this story not just a few times over the years, but it sounds like you can almost, it's almost like it was yesterday. You seem so clear that you can recollect the details so clearly. Derek Humphry: Yes. And she was so clear. She wasn't one who would aggravate over things. She wouldn't ... She'd talk things over, "What is this? What is that?" We'd had a pact that when she first asked me to help her that it would be a joint decision. She said, "I could be made woozy by all these drugs." And she said to me, "Back at the first opening of this, she said, "If I'm asking to die at the wrong time because there's been a cure for cancer or if there's more to do, don't help me. It's a joint decision." And so I went along with that. You have to stand by your partners at the worst of times. Dr. Bob: Well, she certainly sounded like she was very clear and wasn't hesitating at the time. And her strength, and her fortitude, and her clarity have had such a significant impact on many lives from that. Had she not made that decision, had she not asked you to support her in this way, it's hard to know what would have transpired and how the right-to-die movement might or might not have developed over time. So can you share how things developed from that point and how her gentle and peaceful death ended up leading to the next steps for you? Derek Humphry: Well, I had written. I was, what, 45 at the time, and I had published three non-fiction books, had modest effect with them. So I was a published author. So I decided to write a little book about this. I was rather ... I studied the subject after Jean died--no, before and after. And I went into the library of the Times of London, and I read up all the assisted suicide cases for the last 50 years. And what struck me was that here were spouses, male and female, dragged into court. Assisted suicide was and is a crime in Britain. And I was shocked by what I read in modern history about this. And what really struck me was that these people that I could see were never sent to prison although they were vulnerable to 12 years in prison, the maximum sentence. But the judge would always say, "You've done wrong, but it was done in a spirit of compassion." Then he would suspend the sentence or put them on probation and things like that. I thought, "Well, this is a wrong law." If it's a crime, well then it should be punished as a crime. But this is not a crime, and it should be modified." So that got my dander up. And so I wrote a little book called Jean's Way in which I told the truth, the harsh truth of what had happened, the good things, the good times, and the bad times, and how Jean had handled it and so forth, and about the doctor, whose name I did not release. And when I took the book 'round to several publishers in London, nobody would publish it. Even though I was already a published author and staff writer at the London Sunday Times, they said, "Oh, no. It's too harrowing. Oh, no, it'll make people cry." And my own editor, Harry Evans, the great editor, he looked at it, considered it, and he said, "No, I don't want my readers crying on Sunday morning." And I said, "What's wrong with a good cry for genuine reason? This is part of human life." But he wouldn't. He wouldn't publish it. Anyway, I found a little publisher who was willing to take the chance, and they published it. And the entire book was sold out in a week. In five days it was gone. The public snapped it up, and I sold the paperback rights, and the Norwegian rights, and the Japanese rights, and Spanish rights. So the publishers and my editor were wrong. People do want to read genuine cases about this, sincere cases. And a huge amount of the public is interested in peaceful and careful dying. So that was that. Then I moved to America to work for the Los Angeles Times. I wanted to change, and the book became very controversial, and I was invited onto lots of television shows, the Donahue Show. All of the big afternoon television shows, all of them invited me on to talk. And it began to stir interest, and I began to get huge mail from people, and they could reach me at the Los Angeles Times. They would just write, "Derek Humphry, Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles," and that would get me. And people said to me, what are you going to do about this? And I said, "Well, I'm thinking," and this question kept coming up. And so I began to feel, "Well, I'll set up an organization to help people as best we can and long term to change the law so that this could be done thoughtfully, legally by willing doctors according to law and guidelines. And so I set up the Hemlock Society in August of 1980, announced it at the L.A> press conference. I remember one reporter said to me, "Are you going to be in the yellow pages?" I said, "Of course. This is not going to be a covert organization. This is going to be straightforward. But we're not going to break any laws if we can help it. We're not that way. We're in the business of changing laws." But meantime I wrote a little book called Let Me Die Before I wake, which a guide to how to do it yourself. This first book was on the right today, well, second if you call Jean's Way as one. It was true cases of people dying, taking their lives, and what drugs they used, and how they handled it. I went around America interviewing people who were willing to talk to me about the death of a spouse or a child. And I gathered these stories together, published it in a little book, which sold continuously for the next 10 years to mostly members. It wasn't a bookstore book; it was people heard of the Hemlock Society, and I did a number of radio and television programs. Gradually the membership at Hemlock Society grew from nothing to 47, and I had a- Dr. Bob: 47? Derek Humphry: Yeah. I had a- Dr. Bob: It's interesting. I meet people in my practice, and many of these older residents of these community are card-carrying long-term members, and they're so proud of it. These are people who are very successful, intelligent, and they're the folks who have always been able to kind of be self-determining and not just accept what is being handed to them but want to really determine the course of their lives. I don't see as many younger people, and you can share your thoughts on this and what's happened since, but not as many younger people seem to be connecting and kind of opening themselves up to this sort of connection because the people who are the older people who are these long-term members of the Hemlock Society, they had to find out it and join when they were about my age in their 40s and 50s. I don't hear a lot of 50- and 40-year olds these days engaging in this conversation, which is interesting. It's mostly the older folks who are looking more- Derek Humphry: I don't agree with you there. Dr. Bob: That hasn't been your experience? Okay. Derek Humphry: My experience is different. I have two websites. I have a blog, and I have a Listserv, and I find that the ratings of people, it varies a great deal. I get an uncomfortable amount of students approaching me, wanting to interview me and to know background, and so forth because they're writing projects on it all over America. And I get some end of term or so forth, I get swamped with these. So I think there is fairly across the ages group of support, true most support from people over 50, and that's very often because they've seen their parents or grandparents die in circumstances that they would not want for themselves. Dr. Bob: That makes complete sense. Derek Humphry: Whereas young people have probably not. Thank goodness they've not seen loved ones die. But we older people, of course, have, so and- Dr. Bob: I appreciate that perspective. I appreciate ... Obviously, you've been in this world for longer and are very tapped in to it. So I appreciate knowing that from in your experience, that there are people across the age ranges who are paying attention and supporting. So what happened with the Hemlock Society? I know that there were changes that occurred. Derek Humphry: Yes. Well, because the movement grew bigger, and other organizations formed. Ten years after I formed the Hemlock, Dr. Kevorkian came on the scene with his very controversial tactics and actions. And of course, the media were fascinating with Kevorkian. I mean, they'd never heard of a doctor with a suicide machine that killed patients on request. So he got an enormous amount of ... far more publicity than I got. I washed with interest. In terms of informing, because a lot of people only watch television, and they don't tend to read books and papers, and that's their choice. So suddenly Kevorkian offers so many television appearances. We're telling people about the right to choose to die, and he helped directly with drugs 130 people to die and could have going on doing that. He was twice charged with assisted suicide, and the juries wouldn't convict him. He was acquitted. But then he wanted to make it a bigger impact. He believed that all this publicity would make the medical profession change its mind about assisted dying. He was wrong, but he persisted, very persistent, tough man. And he performed active voluntary euthanasia, a man ,very sick man came to him and asked to be helped to die. The family was behind him, and he was a very, very ill man And when Kevorkian ended his life, this man's life by injection, and he filmed it, and he got 60 Minutes to put it on film, and on the 60 Minutes program, Kevorkian looked down at the camera and pointed his finger, and then said to the district attorney of his area up at Michigan, "Either you prosecute me, or I've won." Very [defact 00:36:24], strong ... He threw down the gauntlet to the legal people, who were not going to prosecute him again. They've got fed up with him. But this time they had to take him to court because he was such a defiant act. And they were willing to look past assisted suicide, but death by injection, they were not. That was ... They charged him with manslaughter and second-degree murder. And he was convicted. He'd overstepped the mark because of assisted suicide before the courts, you can plead ... It was something you had to do, something that was by choice and by agreement. Although it's strictly it's against the law, juries accepted that when they heard the cry is from the family and what the dead patient had said and so forth. Now, with second-degree murder, you cannot bring evidence of compassion and sympathy. That's not allowed in Britain and America under a murder charge. You either did it, or you didn't do it. You can't say, "He asked me to kill me." You can't say, "I did it for a good reason." That argument, the judge will immediately stamp on any argument, and he has to. That's the law that's in the practice. Bob Uslander: I imagine it may have an impact on the sentencing and on how the punishment is meted out? But it sounds like not on the actual determination of guilt or innocence. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: Is that correct? Derek Humphry: Yes, and he repeated his thing, "This action of mine, helping this man to die was merciful, and the law should be changed," and all the rest of it. He said to the jury, "Do I look like a murderer?" Of course, he didn't. Dr. Bob: Of course not. Derek Humphry: But the judge was pretty strong on him. He'd appeared before her before, and he signed a bond that he would not help any people to die, and of course, he obviously broke that bond. And so the jury found him guilty, and the judge said that "This is the end of your actions on this." And he was sent to 10 years to life; I think it was. It was a certain period to life, and he went to prison. He appealed, but he had no grounds for appeal. He kept on appealing, but they didn't have good grounds for appeal. That's the way the homicide laws are: You either did it, or you didn't do it. He had a film with himself doing it. So his work ... He did eight years in prison, served it very bravely, and nobly, and was let out after eight years instead of life on a promise that he wouldn't do it anymore. And he stuck to that promise. A few years later he died of kidney disease. He certainly had his impact. But where I, and I'm not medical profession, I'm not a doctor, of course, only a journalist, and people would write to him and say, "Will you help me?" He would write them back or call them back, and he would say after he'd saw the circumstances, "Yes. Fly up here." So people that he accepted would fly to Detroit, check into a motel. And he would help them to die next day. Now, that upset the medical profession. They said, "Look, that's not the way you practice medicine." Even if the end result was a Kevorkian-type result, you would evaluate a patient. You get to know a patient. You make sure it's a genuine, compassionate request. So he didn't move the medical profession at all. I'm afraid, and- Dr. Bob: Right. And that's really what's developed of course in the states that do have loss that allow physician-aided dying. Those issues are addressed. And as somebody who's practicing in that realm, I can assure you and everyone listening that the relationships are very important, and this is not a quick transaction, right? Derek Humphry: Yes, not a casual thing at all. There has to be understanding and friendship and signed documents saying that that's proving that this was the patient' own decision, the witnessed documents and whatever. It must be done carefully. And Kevorkian, one, in the start of his antics, he came to me, and he said that "Will the Hemlock Society send me patients?" And I said, "No. I don't believe in ..." Oh, he said he was going to start a suicide clinic. And I replied to him straight off in my office, he came to my office, asked for help, and I said, "No, I don't believe in people being helped assisted dying in clinics. This is something that must be done in home with knowledgeable doctors and agreeing families. This is not acceptable at all." He got very angry and stamped out of the office because I wouldn't help him. And I said, "Alright." Even before he got out, I said, "Alright. We have to change the law, not break it." Dr. Bob: Right, not circumvent it. Derek Humphry: Anyway, so he never spoke to me again. Dr. Bob: First of all, thank you for that history lesson. It's fascinating, and I now a lot of people will benefit from having a greater understanding of how the right-to-die movement really began and where Dr. Kevorkian fits into it. Share with me a bit, if you would, about what you're doing now. What is life like for Derek Humphry these days? Derek Humphry: Well, I'm 87 years old, in pretty good heath instead of some of the things like nerve-ending damage, or losing my hearing, and so forth that old people suffer from, but I don't have any major illnesses or terminal illnesses. I resigned from the Hemlock Society seven years ago. It was getting too big. I'm a writer, not a CEO, and so I handed it over. A few years later it merged into Compassion and Choices, into another ... It was merged, and the Hemlock Society doesn't exist anymore, except Hemlock Society of San Diego: They've kept their name and a very strong chapter down there. Dr. Bob: Yes, good friend sort of mine, and I will be introducing the listeners to some of the folks from the Hemlock Society of San Diego in future podcasts. Derek Humphry: Yes. I run a little organization that supplies quality literature about the right to choose to die, about assisted dying. And my book Final Exit, which is the guidebook as to how you can practice your own self-deliverance, what you must beware of, the dos and don'ts, the law. It's all described in journalistic terms. I'm a very straightforward writer. The book Final Exit has been selling since 1991, selling today. I sell about four or five a day. It's in the bookstores. It's on Amazon, and so forth. And it's sold all over the world. Most languages have taken, and even China and Japan have taken it. And then I've just published a memoir of my life, Good Life, Good Death, which is the story of my life before 50. I was 50 when I started the Hemlock Society, but it describes my life there, and then the second half about Jean's death and how the right-to-die movement numeric grew and grew. I moved to live in Oregon from Los Angeles, and I discovered that Oregon had a system of you could change the law by citizens initiative, that citizens could vote in their own law. It's quite complicated to do it. So in 1993, we set about, I gathered people around me and Hemlock Society of Oregon. I met other good people, doctors, and the lawyers, and nurses, and laypeople, and we got a citizens initiative going in Oregon in 1994, and we learned from other failures that we'd had previously in California and Washington. And to everybody's surprise, we won. We won by 2%, and the right-to-life movement sprung into action, got an injunction against us, stopped it. Then we fought that injunction off. Then they brought another one in, and they delayed the law for three years, and they called another vote, a state-wide vote in Oregon. They called another vote. And it was the biggest mistake they ever meant. We won by 4% the next time. We doubled our gain. So the vote, it was twice voted on in Oregon. And the law went into effect in 1998, and has worked- Dr. Bob: Yes, it has, and then- Derek Humphry: ... very satisfactorily ever since, and I think- Dr. Bob: Yeah, and then laws, the law in Washington became essentially modeled after that, and California and now Colorado, and I understand that there are initiatives and bills in many other states. So we are I think the progress continues. Derek Humphry: Yes. It's slow progress, and people would like to see more, but in a democracy and a free country like America, you've got to go step by step. Dr. Bob: Yes, you've got to go through [crosstalk 00:49:14]. Derek Humphry: Interesting. In Britain, it's still a crime to assist a suicide, but the Chief Prosecutions Department in London has issued guidelines. This is two years ago. They issued guidelines as to when they would prosecute a person and when they would not, what their markers were, what their standard was. And I agreed with it. I thought, "That's ..." I could see that I was ... Oh, there was a ... After the cheese, we came out, he police came to me and said, "Did you do this?" And I said, "Yes, I did. Oh, yeah." I said, "If you take me to court, I'll throw myself on the mercy of the court." I did help her. But the public prosecutor decided not to prosecute me. He used a clause in the law that if he felt one way about it, he could decline prosecution. And in Britain, they have this new law. They still haven't changed the law in Britain, and though they've tried the Oregon law two or three times, it never gets through Parliament. But they do have these guidelines which you can read there on the Internet and everywhere, which says if you assist a loved one, it can't be strangers, if you assist a loved one under these circumstances, I can't spread them all out now, but intelligent circumstances, then we are not likely to prosecute. If you do it for monetary reasons, or selfishness, or any criminality, then you will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Dr. Bob: As it should be. Derek Humphry: So go ahead. Dr. Bob: No. I said, "As it should be," right? I know that sometimes there can be nuances, but we do need to be protecting ... We need those protections in place. Derek Humphry: Oh, yes, undoubtedly. We're moving towards doing it. And I think that the whole change in America society is swinging, going to swing in our favor. I mean, who would've thought 10 years ago that there would be gay rights as clear as they are now, that there would be same-sex marriages? Who would've thought that a few years ago? But it's gone through, and the Supreme Court approved it. So there is a change in attitudes. Dr. Bob Bob: There is. Derek Humphry: And younger people are more open to intelligent decisions instead of old-fashioned and religious decisions. Bob Uslander: Well, you were ahead of your time, my friend, and you were it sounds like an accidental pioneer. I personally and professionally am grateful. We will be kind of carrying the torch and continuing in the efforts that you and many of your peers have put forth. And there are many, many people who owe you gratitude for going out and being willing to put yourself out there because it wasn't the easy path. It wasn't the path of least resistance by any stretch. I know that. Dr. Bob: So, Derek- Derek Humphry: ... had some ups and downs. Dr. Bob: yeah. Well, no doubt. And there is more work to be done. Derek Humphry: Oh, yes. Dr. Bob: There is quite a bit, but we also want to, like you were indicating, we want to recognize and appreciate the strides that have been made. And we are, I feel like we're moving clearly in the right direction. Derek Humphry: Yeah. I hope so. Dr. Bob: If people want to connect with you, and certainly you discussed a few of your books, I know there's others, but Let Me Die Before I Wake was one; Final Exit; Good Life, Good Death, which I have a copy of, and I can't wait to crack it open and dive into it. What is the best way for someone to learn more about you, be able to access your blog or give access to your books? Derek Humphry: My main website, which is the name's easily remembered, and then that leads you on to my other websites and blogs. It's www.finalexit.org. I'm not a nonprofit organization. If you go to finalexit.org, you could then see how you could move on to our bookstore very clearly or join a blog or the Listserv. So that's the easiest way to get in contact with us, finalexit.org. And my latest book is my memoir of all these years before '50 and the turbulent years since 50, and I call it Good Life, Good Death, so not all about death. There's quite a lot of humor and irony in other parts of it. And it's available through me or Amazon or so forth, but prefer you bought it from me. And you can find it through finalexit.org and get it at the discounted rate. Dr. Bob: Wonderful. Well, Derek, I just want to thank you for taking time and sharing so openly, and, again, for everything you've done to move, I think to move humanity forward. Derek Humphry: In a small way, and it's been very rewarding. I've built up a huge friendship and wonderful friendships, and people to work with on these calls, and particularly down in San Diego there seems a real hotbed of thoughts and action about this subject. Bob Uslander: Yeah, well, I know you've got some very good friends and admirers down here, and I'm one of them. So I'll look forward to continuing this friendship, and I know that we'll be back in touch soon. So I'll be signing off. Thank you so much, and we all appreciate you. Derek Humphry: It's been good talking to you. Dr. Bob: Okay, Derek. You take care of yourself. Derek Humphry: Okay. Thanks very much.
In a very candid and poignant conversation, Bill Andrews' sons share what their dad's end-of-life experience was like for them. Hear how they worked as a team to help their dad have the best death. Note, if you haven't already listened to their father's episode, please click here to listen to Bill Andrews share why he chose to end his life after battling ALS. Transcript Dr. Bob: This episode is a follow-up to a previous podcast with Bill Andrews, a patient of mine who ended his life on October 23rd, 2017, using The End of Life Option Act, also known as Physician Aid in Dying, or Death With Dignity. The law, which became effective in California in June of 2016, allows a competent adult resident of California with a terminal illness to request from their attending physician a prescription for medication that will end their life in a peaceful and dignified manner. Bill Andrews had ALS, also known as Lou Gehrig's Disease. He was a surfer, a thrill-seeker, and an adventurer prior to the onset of this illness. He also was a devoted son, father, and grandfather. I recorded a podcast with him four days before he ended his life. Two of his sons were present for that interview, as well, and all three were with him when he died a few days later. I invited Bill's sons, Chris, Eric, and Brian, to join me and share what they had learned from this experience, and to help carry on their father's legacy by helping others understand more about what it's like to help a loved one through the Aid in Dying process. Bill was a pioneer, and he was also a humanitarian. He wanted his death to have value for others, which I'm hopeful that these podcasts can help accomplish. This discussion is fairly graphic and detailed. Some people may find some of the content uncomfortable. Others will find it gripping and refreshing. I found it incredibly inspiring, to hear the words of these intelligent, thoughtful and grieving young men as they share what they went through as a family and honor their father, Bill Andrews. Please share this with others who may benefit and feel free to head to my website, integratedmdcare.com/newsite1, for additional information and support and other topics related to life and death. Welcome to another life and death conversation. This is Dr. Bob Uslander, your host and the founder of Integrated MD Care. Today is gonna be a bit of a different format, we're doing a group podcast, and I have a few gentlemen here with me who I shared a pretty special experience with just a couple months ago. I did a podcast interview with Bill Andrews; you may have listened to that one. Bill was quite a character, well loved and well respected, a gentleman who made the brave decision to end his own life after struggling with ALS for several years. I did an interview with Bill just a few days before he did end his life and he did it in the company and the presence of his family, and his sons, Brian, Chris and Eric, have decided that they wanted to speak and share their perspective and help others who may be trying to figure out how to navigate this terrain and how to support each other and their loved ones through this process. So I'm grateful and very please to introduce you to Brian, Eric, and Chris Andrews. Thanks for being here guys. Patient Son: Thanks, doctor. Patient Son: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Okay. There's a lot of things that we can talk about. There's a lot of different components to this, but one of the things I want you to share ... And you were on that podcast when we talked to your dad, and we got a little bit of your perspective on that, but he was the star of the show. You guys were in the background, but it was nice to have that. Now I'd like you to, in memory of him, in honor of him, we know that he was very, it was really important to him that people understood that this was an option and they understood why he took this option. Why he made the choice. From your perspective, can you share a little bit about why you felt it was so important for him to share his story? Patient Son: This is Brian. Dad loved being a pioneer in life. He liked being out in the forefront doing things in business that were new and innovative, and in his action sports lifestyle, surfing big waves, motor crossing areas that people had never been. I think he really felt good about being a pioneer and doing something here that was newly available. Dr. Bob: Okay. Patient Son: He really wants people to hear his story, and he was really happy to have done that, the podcast with you, and he really wants to get this information out for people considering this. Dr. Bob: That's cool. It's interesting to think about that, the pioneering spirit. I relate to that. I'm kind of, as a physician, a bit of a pioneer in this realm. Of course, had he not been dealing with a terminal illness that was challenging him every day and getting worse, he probably would have found other ways to pioneer, right? Patient Son: Yeah. Dr. Bob: But this was an opportunity for him to take his own experience and what he had to deal with and go through and hopefully allow others to benefit from it. So, not just being a pioneer, but being a humanitarian, I think. Patient Son: He's always loved helping people and helping to share wisdom and teach and coach. That's just the kind of guy he was, so yeah, this is good. Dr. Bob: Yeah. How long before he actually, his life ended, did he start talking about this being an option for him? Patient Son: I don't he knew it was an option to be honest with you 100%. But I think it was something that we discovered along the way, and it might have been Brian who brought it to his attention as an option to look into. Dr. Bob: Okay. Patient Son: We were reading all about ALS and how it was gonna end. But the question was when and how right? So we were just learning so much about it and reading about it and meeting people, going to support groups. You know at some point it's gonna end. The average time was supposed to be two to three years, and so we didn't know how long. It turned out to only be, from diagnosis, it turned out to only be a year for dad. Through that journey of reading about that we read about this option and talked about it. Dr. Bob: And so you discussed it with him. Did you guys discuss it with each other first? Patient Son: We did. We shared it with each other and just, you know, it was earlier on. I think that was maybe in the first month or so after his diagnosis. It was around the holidays a year ago. We had read about that and said, "Well, this is something we should keep our eye on." We knew we were going to go through a journey together. We just wanted to have that as something to learn about and so we did. I think dad was also reading on his own and I'm sure he read about it as well. It's something we ended up talking about together. Patient Son: ALS was not something that I think any of us knew anything about prior to his diagnosis. It's the type of thing we all had to be learning about as we were going through it. We were also trying to form opinions about it as we were going through it. I think that when Brian came across the Death with Dignity website, and there were some other materials that kind of lead us to that path to look at that. It wasn't like, "Hey, what do you guys think?" It was just like, "Let's just read this and try and understand this a bit." The whole process was a lot of like learning, talking, digesting everything. Like facts, emotions, decisions, kind of all doing it simultaneously. But yeah, we really, it was something that we brought to his, for him. Dr. Bob: Which is unusual. You don't have much other exposure to this, but it's unusual that families bring it to a person. In my experience, most of the time, the individual is the one who has been either, for years has been kind of secretly knowing that if things got to a certain point if they develop these challenges, that they would want to look for that out. But most of the time, the family members bring ... the patient, the one who's dying, brings it to the family members and they have to try to convince the family members that it's the right thing for them. That's what I see more often. I think it speaks a lot to your relationship with him and your level of love and trust, that you felt that you could bring something like that onto the table and talk about it as a family looking at all the different options that were out there. This is never the first option. This is never what anyone is hoping for. It's always after exhausting all the other possibilities. But as it turns out in many cases, it's the best of the various options that are out there. So you guys, at what point did you speak of this to a physician? At what point did, and I know, but for the listeners there, what was the path that was taken once it was discussed as a family? Patient Son: We had seen one of dad's primary physicians, and they had a good relationship with one another. End of life, quality of life was a big conversation between those two, especially within the last year. We weren't a part of those conversations until recently when we started going to the appointments with dad, you know, having to take him there and so forth. So being there gave us exposure to some of those conversations, and it was no surprise to his physician, approximately two months before dad left us, that we went to him with that formal request. He was ready for that call. Dr. Bob: Okay. And even though he wasn't necessarily familiar with the specifics or how to put things in place, he was receptive and willing to support your dad through that? Patient Son: Very much so. Dr. Bob: Great. I know that that's ... How long was it between that conversation and when he reached out to me? Do you have any idea? Was there much time lapse in there? Patient Son: Yeah. He doesn't know the exact time. Patient Son: I think it was about four to six weeks. We had the conversation saying, "We're ready to move forward." We had some learning to do on our side that took some days and some weeks. Our physician wasn't familiar with the process whatsoever, so he needed to do his own research as well. Two, three weeks went by, we realized together, with the physician, that we were at a stalemate. It was at that point that we decided to explore other options and getting some additional help, and that's how we met you. Dr. Bob: Great, yeah. I had met him. I had a prior relationship with this physician. He, I guess put the word out that he was looking for someone who knew more about it. Patient Son: He did. Dr. Bob: And then we connected, and I think it worked out well. He got to be involved, as everybody wanted because he had that relationship and you got the benefit of working with someone who knew how to get you down that path. Patient Son: Yeah, you ended taking over as the primary and then he took over as the supporting physician. Dr. Bob: Right, it worked out really well. Patient Son: It worked out great. Everything was smooth once we got rolling on that program. Dr. Bob: And he deserved that, he deserved smooth sailing because there's a lot of folks who start down this path and they just hit one roadblock after another, one obstacle after another. And either they struggle for longer, or they often get passed the point where they can even take advantage of this, which is really unfortunate. Patient Son: We actually had that as a time constraint, because dad has the ability to walk and his arms were getting really weak, and his hands, gripping was getting weak. We had to start hand feeding him in his final week. So it wasn't too much time left because he could life a cup with a few ounces of weight and drink when he needed to do, even do any other way to self-administer. Self-administering was a requirement, so we had a time horizon that was limited. So we were getting a little bit, a little nervous about that as time marched on, which is another reason we contacted you to help get things moving. Because he really wanted that, he had talked about having three options. He could just let the disease take his course and he'd starve to death and wouldn't be able to breathe. He didn't want to go through that, but that would have been his second choice. The other option was to be kept alive through any medical means possible, feeding tube and ventilator. He did not want to do that. So that's what knew right from the beginning, he did not want to be kept alive, didn't want to be bed-ridden, didn't want to be having this, any medical means to keep him going. Because he lived a great life, and he was ready to go, so that was the last of the options, and this became his leading options hands down, was to take this California End of Life, with a graceful ending on his terms, not having the disease run its course all the way to the end. He was getting very close. We were only I think a few weeks away at the most. Dr. Bob: As things were changing? Patient Son: Yeah, things were changing pretty fast for him. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I know that it's hard to even imagine how frightening that would be. Even though he knew that he had plan B, but he knew that that was going to be difficult for everybody. It was going to be challenging for him, and it would have been difficult for the family to watch somebody going through that. So I know that he was very, very determined to be in control. We know that he set a date, and setting a date is probably a bit challenging because you have children who live in different parts of the country, and he wanted to be accommodating. He wanted to make sure that everybody could be there and participate, but he didn't want to push it off too far because he was worried about the possibility that he would lose the ability. He also didn't want to cut offany more of his life than he had to because he loved the people who were around him. He still loved life; he just hated the circumstances. So when I talked with him, he was four days out from the date that he had set. We knew at that time that he was not going to change his mind, he was determined. Can you talk a little bit about what it was like from your perspective to be setting a date for your father to be ending his life? Patient Son: That's a terrific question, Chris. Do you want to start Eric? Patient Son: Yeah, I feel like jumping in. I think this is sort of like the piece that was ... I think were saying it was a little morbid, but it was also really amazing. It ended up being fascinating. Typically, when someone dies they die, and then they're gone, and you have to deal with everything all at ones. You have to deal with your emotions and the planning and logistics. You have to deal with everything all at once. But what this afforded us was an opportunity to chip away at all these things. We knew his day was approaching, so we all knew that we could say our goodbyes. It also meant that we could be emotional one day and they be very pragmatic another day, and just say, "What should we take care of today?" Because we had time, we didn't have to deal with it all at once. You could deal with it as you were leading up to the day. It was really comforting. It gave everyone the time and the space to wrap things up in a way that we all needed to individually. I always tell people, it's like a really weird experience, but I got to write his eulogy and then read it to him. There was one part that I didn't say very well, and so I actually rewrote a part of it and then read it again to him. No one gets to do that. I thought that that was a really special opportunity that this afforded us, that I found fascinating. Patient Son: His, dad's terms were reverse engineering. He was an engineer. He liked planning things. His goal was to pick a date that would work well for the family. Once we did that, then all the other pieces fell into place. So picking the actual date was pretty easy for us, because dad was not doing well at all, getting worse day by day, having a harder time day by day, so the sooner, the better. He wanted to take advantage of the quickest it could happen, you know after the process, which was about a little longer than two weeks, 14, 15 days, something like that. So we worked together, the three sons and dad, to pick a date that would work best for everybody. Then, from there, worked backwards to what he wanted to do and what we wanted to do leading up to that date. Patient Son: Cool. Eric, you should tell him about the day before, like what ... Patient Son: Do you want to get into that or some of the things that happened before then? [crosstalk 00:19:41] Dr. Bob: No, no. I think it would be fascinating, but do you have anything you wanted to add- Patient Son: Yeah, I'll comment on the date. Dr. Bob: ... about setting the date? Patient Son: Yeah, it was a powerful, impactful moment to set the date. We bounced around on phone calls and texts, trying to pick a date. Dad, when he was ready, he was ready. He was, "As soon as possible," but I want to make sure it works out for all of us because we have our families and birthdays and holidays. He was ready to go, time off work. He was really concerned about a date that would work for all of us, but he was ready, so of course, we wanted to accommodate him with as early as we could pull it off. So we bounced around a couple of dates. We had one and then we actually switched. We had to have Chris come out from New York, and thinking about your family when they would come out. I would just say that it was a heavy moment to set the date, but also it was very freeing at the same time because we did have it on the calendar. We circled that date, and then we could reverse engineer it and start to plan all these activities. So it kind of gut us unstuck and it started some real positive moves to happen, to have that. But it was powerful. Dr. Bob: I imagine it amazing freeing for him too. Patient Son: It was. Dr. Bob: I mean it sounds ... I think that I hear families talk more about how knowing the date makes it more real, and sometimes even more uncomfortable. You guys are unusual in that I get the sense that you guys are all, you were so deeply connected with your dad that you were experiencing this as he was experiencing it, not separate. I mean yeah, you have to think about how it's going to impact you and deal with those feelings, but I really felt like you completely put him first, and that was the only thing that really mattered, was making sure that he got what he needed to get, and with as little interference or struggle as possible. Patient Son: Yes, it's very true. I think we're just like every other family; nobody's perfect. We've all had our disagreements throughout the years and certainly some tough times all growing up; things weren't always perfect. But the disease brought us together, and then this decision brought us together even closer, which was fantastic. Dr. Bob: Cool. That's a gift. Patient Son: It was. We all had our own unique relationships with him for sure. When the disease diagnosis was given a year prior, we said, "We're going to really bond as a team." We had a team name, Team Keep Paddling, dad's a big surfer, right? So he always said, "Just keep paddling. If you ever want to give up, just keep reminding yourself to keep paddling. One more wave, paddle, don't give up. Bust through the white water and get out there and catch that last wave." So that's what, we formed our team name, and we were all about being together. It's actually the best team I've ever been on in my life, in any sports team or work team. This team, this Team Keep Paddling, was the best team I've ever been on. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. I just had an image that came to me. I'm sure that your dad taught each of you to surf. Whether you kept surfing or not, at some point, I imagine that he'd spent his time pushing you into the waves and getting you up there. I just had this image of you guys, because he couldn't move, he couldn't walk, he couldn't do it, that you guys sort of pushed him into the wave. Patient Son: That's really good. Dr. Bob: [crosstalk 00:23:31] into that final wave. Patient Son: You're right. Dr. Bob: And he rode that wave in. Patient Son: Something I think the three of us did really well together, was that I think when this first started, there was a lot of, "I, I, I, I," type of thing. "I feel this way. I might do it this way," and so forth. Then you, as time goes by and the situation gets worse, you tend to ... well at least for us I think it became more about dad. You know, what he wanted. It was crystal clear towards the end that all the decisions that we should make were in his best interest and making sure that he could go out the way in which he wanted. We're very proud of our team work together to support him. He was so happy at the end. We can live the rest of our lives knowing that we did the right thing for him. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and you created that piece for him in that place, and part of that was that you guys were coming together and working in that way and that you always ... I'm thinking about my own experience with my parents and how that affected me, but now that you know what it feels like to fully support someone, to remove your own needs from that, it affects everything. You can never un-know that. You always recognize that there's a part of you that is able to completely forget about your own needs and put others first. This is potentially the culmination of that, but it changes us, right? When we do that it changes us, and all of our other relationships going forward are influenced by that, which is pretty cool. So that's another gift. His gifts continue to be apparent. Patient Son: Yeah. You're right. Dr. Bob: So you guys, you alluded to this, and I definitely want to talk, you created, the whole couple of day leading to and including the day of his death were pretty incredible. You want to talk a little bit about that? Patient Son: The things towards the end that were very important to him, which they were forever just reinforced a little bit, were some time with his sons, some time with his family, some time with his grandchildren. So the day before he passed we set it up so that the grandkids could spend some time with him in his room as residents. We weren't sure how that would go so we just kept bouncing ideas off each other about what would be comfortable for everybody. We thought just opening the room up and letting the kids run around and play and be themselves was the right thing to do, because that's what they're good at and that's what dad wanted to see them do. We had a couple activities. One of which was we made a t-shirt for dad that we would were the following day. Patient Son: It was his idea. Patient Son: It was dad's idea, right. Why don't you talk about the shirt? Patient Son: [crosstalk 00:26:53] told you. Patient Son: We thought this was really special. He'd said ... We were actually trying to talk ... He wanted to know who should be in the room the day that he was actually going to go through with this. We talk about it, and he said, "Well ... " He's like, "Obviously I don't want the grandkids in the room." He's like, "What would be amazing is if, when you guys bring them over to play, bring a white t-shirt and some paint. I want them all to put their hand prints on the t-shirt, and I'll wear it. That way the next day I'll feel like they're in the room with me." It was super sweet, and so we did that, as part of the day before. We had the kids come over, and they thought it was a lot of fun. But maybe they didn't realize at the time they were actually making him a really amazing memento. And then Eric had another amazing idea... He bought a plain white sheet, and he bought a ton of fabric pens and paints. He had all the kids; it was Eric's idea, he had all the kids draw pictures, "Just draw whatever you want." Whether they knew it or not, the age range in the room, how old is Paige? She's 10? Patient Son: 12. Patient Son: 12. The kids ranged from two years old to 12 years old, and they were six of them. We put a big tarp out and the thing, and they all went to town on it. After they were done, they got in a little line and one by one they brought ... We put the sheet over dad and one by one they each pointed to their artwork and explained what they drew and why they drew it for him. What was really special is that we didn't really say, we didn't say, "Draw something intense," but they all I think were feeling the moment, and they did in their own ways. Each one of them got to express through pictures something for him. At the end of the day, he had a t-shirt to wear and this beautiful artwork on a sheet that he go to bring with him the next day. Dr. Bob: When I went over that next day, he was beaming. He was so proud of what he was wearing and just talking about that experience from the day before. That was brilliant. That was brilliant. Patient Son: In addition to seeing the kids and spending some time with them, he also had a couple places that he wanted to visit one last time. Two of which were his favorite beaches, where he wanted to get down there and smell the air one more time, see the waves one more time. We were able to make one of those trips, the other one he just wasn't feeling well physically to go down and make that trip. But we were able to get down to the beach. He wanted to see his grandkids and some sporting events, so he came and watched some flag football, some baseball, some gymnastics. That was important. He had some great meals towards the end; he would eat whatever we want, so we were bringing him things from all over San Diego, some of his favorites. And then also spending some time with his brother, his sister, his mom, close family, as well as some of his dearest friends. He had hundreds and hundreds of friends, so many he knew so well. But there were a handful in particular that he wanted to have some special conversations. So there was a lot that happened. He was able to cross off just about every single thing on that list within that short window of time that we had, or that he had, to be able to follow through this way. Patient Son: I think Eric told you, dad reverse engineered things. So he knew that on the day, it was not a day for goodbyes, it wanted it to be just a business day, where we just took care of things. The day before he wanted to see his grandkids. The days before that, he leaned on us to basically setup times for people to come through. It was very organized. This is exactly the way he wanted it. Patient Son: Went through all the pictures and he explained where places where and who people were. All that was just quality time. Patient Son: One cool think he did that I thought was really special too is he talked about time a lot in the end. When we picked a date it sort of made time more real, but he often said, beyond this, that time is the greatest gift. In the context of running towards the date that he picked, time became more real. But one cool thing he did was he recorded a bunch of things. So he had, I don't know, a checklist of 50 recordings that he wanted to do. He wanted to say something to each grandkids. Patient Son: His own voice recordings. Patient Son: He wanted to something to his friends. He had all these things that he wanted to get out. Obviously, he couldn't write anymore, and so he recorded his voice. But again, having that time, having that date is what enabled him to feel like he could accomplish something. Like, "Alright, I've got to see these people and do these things and make these recordings, and this is what I'm going to do." Patient Son: While he had a completely sound mind and was full of life mentally, just the body was breaking down. But we got to take advantage of that all the way to the end. Completely sound mind and great conversations, all the way to the end. That was a gift. Dr. Bob: Incredible. It's incredible. I didn't know about those recordings. I do know how structured his time was towards the end, because I had to come out and make another visit with him, and I had a short window. I was fit in between a whole bunch of other people there. I was like, "Come on, I'm the important one." Apparently not. Anyway. Talk a little bit about the last day. I think it's important for people to hear what that experience is like from the perspective of those who have helped to allow it and create it if you're comfortable with that. Patient Son: Sure, yeah. I mean, it was surreal, being the last day, for sure. He had hospice care. They were amazing, amazing people. They came by and gave him a shave and a bath. He smelled like a rose. Patient Son: He spoke very complimentary about the people who bathed him and supported him. Patient Son: Yeah. They were phenomenal, really amazing people. So, he got clean, he got dressed in his shirt, and he had the sheet. We had some time together in the morning to have a few more conversations, but he wanted to keep it pretty light that day. He already felt like he had said everything he needed to say, so that last day was just being together. We played some music, some of his favorite songs. We ordered the prescription. That prescription was delivered on that day. It's how that works. Between the order that you put in for that prescription, and they made the delivery to us. That kind of dictated our time window a bit. We didn't have the luxury of having that medication already in hand and waiting for that. So we had to make that happen all that day. But they were great as far as getting that to us pretty rapidly, just a couple hours and we had the medication in hand. Then we had planned to have everybody over. We had his mom and his brother and his sister and our mom and the three of us together all day. We had everybody planned to come over at a certain time once we had time to get the medication. Dr. Bob: You guys want to talk a little bit about that final hour or so? Patient Son: His last day went as good as we could have scripted it, I guess is the most important thing. I agree when you say he wanted to keep it light and so forth. For me personally, it almost ... I hope this doesn't sound cold, but it felt almost as if a formality, because we were able to spend quite a bit of time with him leading up to it, having a chance to say everything that we wanted to say. So that day became just being there for him, as proud, encouraged and strong as he was, he was probably feeling scared, although he'd never admit it. So it was just letting everything go and just being there for him and holding his hand and just telling him a couple more times how much we loved him, and then supporting the other ones in the room who had a tough time with it. Just kind of being there together, and luckily you did a great job for us, where we didn't feel any sort of stress. It just felt calm and the way it was supposed to go, I guess. I'll remember those things, that it was a beautiful day, it worked out perfectly, wouldn't have changed a thing. It all happened pretty quick. Dr. Bob: Were you nervous? Were you nervous about things potentially going badly? Is that a thought that you had? Patient Son: Me personally, no, because I didn't know enough about the medicines or things to understand the true percentage of them not working or something. The family, we were all so communicative together that I knew there would be no outburst or something emotional from anybody in the room. You're always a little nervous I guess in any situation, especially one like this, that it might not go well. But I was so confident and feeling so good for him at the time, that it erased any stress I think leading up to it. Patient Son: I would just say thank you to you too. I think having you; there was ... as I understand you don't have to have a- Dr. Bob: No, there's no requirement to have a medical person there. Patient Son: That would have made me nervous of think. Having you there with us was really ... Patient Son: Yes, agree. Patient Son: I don't know, it was calming and assuring. It was really great for you to tell everybody in the room too what to expect, here's what's going to happen, as we get rolling. It calmed a lot of the ... a lot of confidence that there was actually someone here who had done this before and this is going to be okay. I think without you I would have been more nervous. Patient Son: Yeah, me too. Me too. We knew from you that the medications were going to work. That was undoubtable. So then it was a matter of what it would be like for us in the room and how gentle it would be. That's what was an unknown. Dad was totally at peace. He had said even that three to five days prior, that was the most peaceful time of his life. He felt so confident and was looking forward to that day actually, this next adventure that he was going to go on free from his body with ALS. We all felt very positively about the day. We have had zero regrets and have felt good about it all along to this day. But he was at peace. With his mom there, she was 95 at the time; she just celebrated her 96th birthday. Everyone came over; it was about one o'clock in the afternoon. We were going to give about an hour or so, a little over an hour, to just be with him, as with the larger family who were there earlier. So his mom came by, and his brother and sister and so on. One thing that was a little bit different for us is we have to prepare the medication. You explained this to us and were totally prepared for it. But with the medications, there's an anti-nausea, those are done an hour prior. Then you get into the; in our case, it was Seconal we used. So we had to open up the 100 capsules. We did that together, the three of us. We got, banged through it pretty quick, it seemed like 20, 30 minutes maybe to do that, 20 minutes maybe. But that was a process to go through. We had the family in the room, and we were going through and opening these and getting it ready. That was a little bit- Dr. Bob: Distracting. Patient Son: A little bit. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Patient Son: Yeah. We weren't just sitting with him; we were opening these capsules and so on. But it was part of the process. We understand that there's no other option right now. We knew that was a proven medication that was going to work and so that was the choice all along. It was just a process... Dr. Bob: Chris? Patient Son: Yeah. This is the only kind of negative part for me I think, was I didn't know. I didn't realize, that we were going get 100 of these capsules and have to break them open and empty them out. It was a little unexpected thing that I felt kind of threw off a little bit of the vibe because everything was so peaceful and we had confidence. All of a sudden, I don't want to speak for you guys, but I didn't feel 100% confident that I was doing it right or that, am I allowed to touch this stuff? Do I inhale this? It was a little weird for me in the moment. And then, I didn't really care until our grandma came and his brother and sister, and I felt like we weren't done with that part yet. So I felt like they were seeing the sausage get made or something, and I was like, that part freaked me out a little bit because I would have rather that just been done. It was the one thing I felt like wasn't exactly ... I mean, it sounds really hyper about our schedule. But it schedule and that part was a little frustrating for me. I think emotionally it was a little weird too because I felt like I was really participating with kind of this medieval act of poison or something. That part I didn't love so much, but I think had we been able to do it earlier, not too much earlier but just earlier enough, where I didn't feel stressed about it with other people in the room and ... Dr. Bob: I think ... So, part of the comfort level and knowing what's safe or reducing that stress, that's on me. I could have certainly given you a bit more information. But now that I'm remembering, you couldn't have done it earlier because of the timeframe. The medication was just delivered that day. Patient Son: It was just delivered. Dr. Bob: And he wasn't going to wait. Patient Son: I would have just told them to come later... Dr. Bob: So for anyone who's listening and you're in the process of planning, this is something to keep in mind. And there is another medication. Just to make sure that it's clear, there is another medication besides Seconal, and it's called DDMP2, which is a combination of powders. It's morphine and Valium and a couple of heart medications. But I typically don't recommend that to my patients, because it's not quite as proven, it's not always as smooth and quick. You might have had a very different experience had he taken that because sometimes it takes hours, rather than the minutes that it took your dad to gently stop breathing. So there are other options. I appreciate you sharing that because it's part of the experience. Patient Son: It was. Dr. Bob: This is a conversation. We're not trying to gloss over anything. We're not trying to make it sound simple or anything other than what it is. This was a very; it was a very meaningful difficult, beautiful, challenging time. It was all of that. I will never forget your grandmother doing the hula. Dr. Bob: She was incredibly special. Was that her idea? Patient Son: It was. Patient Son: Completely her idea. 95 years old at the time, and she spent a lot of time in Hawaii, spent 20 years or so out in Hawaii. So she learned hula out there, and she was a swimmer, very active and learned to dance. She had this idea that she was going to do this hula for him, to send him off on his next journey. So she stood at the foot of his bed. They had their eyes locked, and she did this amazing dance, stood up, she kind of leaned against the bed a little bit to steady herself. She did this amazing hula. Their eyes were locked, and dad looked so happy. He was just smiling, beaming. It was a beautiful moment. We all were blown away by that. But the connection they had, it was amazing. Dr. Bob: Yeah, it was beyond description. And she wasn't just dancing and granted this was a 95 year old dancing; it wasn't- Patient Son: Mostly upper body. Dr. Bob: Mostly upper body. Patient Son: Part of the hula, maybe people ... I'm not an expert in this but it's singing and dancing combine into a really beautiful choreographed moment. She choreographed not only the movement but also she wrote and sang her own song. The essence of the song was about passage, safe passage. It had a surf, nautical kind of thing happening. It was about letting him pass through. It was his mom, saying, "It's okay," and giving him that comfort like it's okay. It was through beautiful hand movements and song. It was really pretty. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And I believe it ended with, "And I will see you before long." Patient Son: Yeah. Yeah. Patient Son: That's right. Patient Son: It was her way to say goodbye. It was very beautiful. Yeah, it's crazy. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and then he reiterated how incredibly at peace he was. I truly, as difficult as this is, to be part of these experiences, truly it's incredibly gratifying to see the depth of the connection and to know that you're left with this beautiful memory that you allowed him to have this peaceful end and to be in control at the end of his life. I thank you. I thank you for being here and for sharing this. I know it's not easy to talk about, it's still so fresh. Is there anything else that you feel really strongly that you want to share that's coming up? Don't feel pressured, I don't want to end this with you having something that you think needs to be said. Patient Son: Well, the actual, once he took the medication it was very peaceful. We weren't sure what to expect. It took 19 minutes from start to finish. He was asleep within a minute or so, a minute or two at the most. Very, very peaceful. He started out with just a relaxed breathing, and it slowed and slowed and drifted off. It was very peaceful. We were all gathered around him and holding him. It couldn't have been better from that perspective. We've always felt good about it; I guess that's a true test. Two months later, here we are, and we're feeling like it was absolutely the right decision for him to make. We were happy to be a part of that for him, to support him, what he needed to do given the scenario. Thank you, Dr. Bob, for helping us with that. Dr. Bob: It was my honor. Patient Son: I would add to that, that since this has happened a lot of people have asked about it. Telling people about this is cathartic because it kind of helps to tell. But it also makes me realize how little people know about the Right To Die Act. It's something when you start telling them your story, they get very engaged, and they're very interested. They want to know more about it. I think it's just not a lot of people know about this but everybody I talk to and tell the story to is fascinated with the dignity and the choice and the control, and dying in a way that's very graceful. What you hear from other people is like, "That was not my experience." My grandma or my father, whoever died, they died very bad. It was not good for anybody. So to hear this side, it's almost like they're like, "Wow, I wish we could have had that. I wish we could have gone through that." It's interesting that when you bring it up ... no one would ever bring it up, but when you talk about it, it does open up a really interesting conversation. Dr. Bob: Well, that's why I so appreciate you being here and being willing to have this conversation because this is the kind of thing that people, they need to be able to share these discussions. Imagine what my party conversations are like. My wife hates going to parties with me because invariably people ask what I do, and we start talking about these conversations, about situations. Then they start telling about their experiences. For me, I live and breathe it, but I recognize that not everybody has the same comfort level with it. But people are fascinated when they understand that there is another better option. Patient Son: I'd just say that the whole thing is so sad in terms of the disease and knowing nothing about it until he was diagnosed. To see how he deteriorated physically so fast. The disease doesn't normally have pain associated with it, but he was a different case where he had so many orthopedic issues from surgeries, he was in incredible amounts of pain. It was so sad to see that. For him to be able to make this decision and to escape that pain while being so sharp mentally and so forth. I think it was one of the best things that happened in this journey. Like my brother said, we're so appreciative because we cared about him so much, and so many people in San Diego and the surrounding communities do. He was very well loved, and he deserved, like so many other people in this world, to go out the way that he did, on his own terms. Thank you so much. We'll always be appreciative for that. Dr. Bob: Alright guys. So Chris, Brian, Eric, thanks for being part of the conversation. You're awesome. Thank you all for tuning in to this episode of Life and Death Conversation.
Elizabeth Semenova is the Director of Operations at Integrated MD Care. She shares her insights and personal stories about dealing with loss. The holidays can be an especially difficult time, listen to how Elizabeth handled her own loss and how she and Dr. Bob help others. Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome to A Life and Death Conversation with Dr. Bob Bob Uslander. I'm here with a guest who I'm excited to introduce everybody to, and somebody who has a wealth of experience and insights. And I'm very pleased to have her as part of my expanding team here at Integrated MD Care. So you're going to get to know quite a bit about my new director of operations for the practice, Elizabeth Semenova.Elizabeth, say hello to our listeners. Elizabeth: Hello. Dr. Bob: So Elizabeth came to us a few months back. And the way that we initially met was through a referral that she had made to us for a gentleman who was struggling with Parkinson's disease and was really at the tail end of his life, and Elizabeth made a recommendation that he contact us. And it was a real blessing for us to be able to meet this gentleman and guide him through the last weeks of his life. After that, we just had a few more encounters. And, Elizabeth, maybe you can share how what it was about what we do that drew you in and kind of encouraged to you to reach out and try to become part of the tribe. Elizabeth : Well, after I referred friends, clients to you, I looked more into what it is that you do and how you do it, and explored information that I received from other sources about your work, and I was inspired by your openness to life and death and your perspective on the importance of accepting and talking about death as a part of life. I was particularly intrigued by your willingness to support patients and families who are looking for resources, education, and services regarding the End of Life Option Act in California. So that's how I came to connect with your practice. Dr. Bob: Cool. Well, we're very happy that you did, and just to kind of summarize, Elizabeth came on, and we didn't have a social worker who was working with us. Elizabeth has a master's in social work and had been working as a social worker within the hospice world for several years. And we were really blessed to have her come and go out. She went out on a handful of patient visits when I was doing initial evaluations for people who were looking at aid and dying. And it was a real blessing to have her expertise and just her presence there to support those patients and families. Then we just had some changes at the office, and it became very clear that Elizabeth had a strong leadership ... had some strong leadership experience and genes. And everybody in the practice really felt comfortable with her guidance, and I offered her the position to help lead the practice, which has been great. So it's just been a short time, but the difference in our efficiency and just getting things done has jumped quite a bit. So we appreciate your very wise counsel and leadership, and it will continue to be a blessing for all of us for a long time to come. Elizabeth: I'm very humbled by your confidence and appreciation. Dr. Bob: Well, there's more to come. So let's talk a little bit ... We've had some conversations, many conversations around our individual kind of perspectives and feelings about death and how to work with people through those challenges. I know that you've had some very personal experience with loss and death in your life, and I'd like to hear a bit about that if you're comfortable sharing. And let's see how we can provide some valuable guidance, comfort, wisdom for some other people who might need that at this point. Elizabeth: Sure. I first encountered grief and loss and bereavement when I was in seminary, and I took a class on the subject. I remember being very inspired by everything that we read and discussed, but feeling a little disconnected from it, not really knowing how to understand it or contextualize it. Dr. Bob: Had you had any personal loss up until that point? Elizabeth: I had lost grandparents, but no unexpected losses, no tragic losses at that point. And several years later, I was living in Colorado with my daughter, who was nine at the time, and we received a phone call from my brother-in-law, who was my daughter's father's brother. So my daughter's father and I were married when she was a baby and had since separated but stayed very, very close as family and friends. And his brother called me to let me know that he had died suddenly in a car accident. That was my first real experience with death and loss. And at the time, as I said, my daughter was nine. So my purpose was to make the process as comfortable and manageable for her as I could, to do what I could to contribute to her healing and resilience in dealing with the loss of her father. Dr. Bob: So you were dealing with it on your own and then having to understand, learn how to navigate that for her as well. Elizabeth: Yes, and I think that I didn't deal much with it on my own at first because I was so focused on caring for her. The initial loss was devastating. I mean, the pain in my body and the tears were endless. And I remember reaching out to friends and just feeling so lost and unable to think or function or grapple with the pain that was physical as well as spiritual and emotional, which really surprised me. I didn't realize that that was something that could happen. But I turned my attention to making sure that she was okay. So it was really a few years before I started to deal with my own experience of the loss. Dr. Bob: Had you had at that point training in ... Had you been through the social work training or had been involved in any way with hospice? Elizabeth: No. At that point, I hadn't had any experience end-of-life care, palliative care, hospice care. I went into my master's program in social work later, so I had been involved in social services but not in any official certified capacity and not with this field at all. I'd worked a lot with homeless populations, mental health recovery, addiction recovery and really didn't have any context for dealing with loss other than what I had touched upon briefly in seminary. Dr. Bob: So now several years later, you're in a very different place. You have a whole different set of experiences and knowledge base. And so it's interesting because you can probably look back at how you managed and how you responded to things and helped your daughter, and see it through a different lens because you would probably ... I'm assuming that that experience helped educate you about how to support others who might find themselves in similar circumstances going forward. Is that a fair assessment? Elizabeth: I think that's right, although I would say that the experience of a sudden tragic loss that is unexpected is very different from the experience of being with someone on hospice or someone who is more naturally at the end of their life. My father-in-law died several years later on hospice of cancer, and we had the opportunity to be with him, and to say goodbye, and to share love and memory with the family. I would say that that educated me more on how to be a hospice social worker than the experience of losing Natalia's father. Dr. Bob: I get that. Yeah, for me, the loss of my parents, neither of which was completely unexpected--they each had their struggles in different capacities, but it wasn't sudden and traumatic, which adds just a whole multiple layers of complexity to, I imagine to the grieving process. So can you share ... Do you have some thoughts that you'd like to share for people who might be in circumstances like that, who might still be grieving after a traumatic loss, especially with respect to children? Elizabeth: Sure. Dr. Bob: Not to put you on the spot, but I just- Elizabeth: I would say that the first most important thing is to reach out to people, to stay connected because it's an extremely isolating emotional experience. It's rare, and it can feel uncommon and lonely, so in order to stay stabilized, especially on behalf of my daughter, reaching out was really an important part of making things work. In the context of helping my daughter, I had never experienced that kind of loss as a child, so I didn't know what she might need from first-hand experience. So I reached out to friends of mine who had lost parents at a very young age, and I had two friends in particular who were very helpful in sharing with me their experience, what was important to them, what they felt was missing from care that could've been provided for them. The thing that stood out the most to me was they talked a great deal about people shying away from the subject and how that was detrimental to their recovery, to their healing, to their resiliency. So I made efforts to be very open and communicative with my daughter about the circumstances of the loss, the experience of the loss both for her and for other family members, and to share vulnerability of my own sorrow with her. And I think that that openness has been helpful to her. I think that she would say that we've created a safe space for her to be however she is, and to feel however she feels, and to share that, and to not feel alone with it. Dr. Bob: I think that's probably really critical to not feel like there is ... just to feel like it's okay to feel however you feel and not to have any expectation or to feel like, "Oh my goodness, it's been four years or five years, and I should be over it, but it's still painful," but for you to allow that and to help them see that this too shall pass. Things cycle and the feelings will come, and they will go, and to be able to freely express that has got to be critical. Elizabeth: Yeah, and I think another thing that really stood out was that everybody's grief experience is different, so allowing her to know and accept that my experience would be different from hers and that she doesn't have to match my emotional experience with the loss of her father, that she doesn't have to expect anything of herself, that I don't expect anything of her, and that it's okay to be. However, she is with it at the time of the loss and going forward because I don't know what her life will hold in terms of how she integrates this into her world, into her emotional experience. I don't know how it's going to impact her, and I just want her to know that whatever it is that she needs, she has access to the support that I can provide and that others can provide, and that it's always okay to let that experience be a part of who she is, and that it can shape her, but it doesn't have to overwhelm her. Dr. Bob: It's beautiful. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: You said something I wanted to touch on a little bit, in that people tend to shy away from the subject. And I see this all the time after someone dies, I think especially when it's someone younger or it's unexpected, sudden, is that the people around who might be very well-meaning who would want to provide comfort are afraid that because they don't know what to say, they don't want to make things worse. They don't want to say something that will be offensive or painful. So they probably instead don't say anything, don't call. That discomfort creates this distance. Do you have thoughts about how people ... because not so many people ... Like you said, it's rare for somebody to experience a sudden traumatic loss in their own life, but it's not as rare for people to know somebody who they care about who is in this position. So can we try to provide some guidance for people who are wanting the comfort or connect with someone who's had a loss? Elizabeth: Yeah. I would say that there are no words that make sense at that time, and to have the expectation that there's the right thing to say or that something you can do will make it better will solve the problem or somehow fix something is an unrealistic expectation. I think that death is such a part of life that it can't be ignored, and being willing to be simply present with people as they experience loss and grieve that loss at the time of the loss and ongoing because it becomes a part of their life, is the most you can offer. I don't think that there is anything that a person should do to help support someone other than just be there for them and with them. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I mean, I agree. I think that there are ... It's a challenge because you don't want to push yourself on somebody, and I know when people say--they're very well-meaning--"Call me if there's anything I can do if there's anything you need." But in that situation, most people aren't going to call on people other than a select few and say, "Oh, I need someone to be with me," or, "I need meals prepared because I can't function enough to cook for my family." Elizabeth: And I think that's a factor of our society's unwillingness to be comfortable with death. It's not considered acceptable to be in deep sorrow, and to need support, and to reach out to a friend or a loved one. I've heard a lot of people, especially spouses, share that their family members, after a certain number of months or years say, "It's time to move on," and that, to me, doesn't make any sense. If someone needs support around grief and loss, it could be at any time. It could be immediately after the death. It could be months later. It could be years later, to be available to offer a cup of tea, to just show up with a small gift, to send flowers to let them know you're thinking about them. I think small gestures that aren't intrusive but are thoughtful can make a really big difference. And those small gestures will let someone know more than just saying, "Call me if you need anything. I'm really here with you. I'm thinking about you." And it opens a door that people might not realize is even there." Dr. Bob: At the time of this recording we're coming up towards the holidays, and I'm wondering if you have thoughts about ... We're talking about children. We were focusing a bit on children, and there are a lot of children who are facing their first Christmas, their first Hanukkah, their first New Year's without somebody. It could be a grandparent. It could be a parent. It could be a sibling. You have anything you'd like to share about how to support the families, especially children through that, those holiday times after a loss? Elizabeth: I'm getting a little emotional as I'm remembering our first holidays without Natalia's father. Something that we've done that she has expressed to me has been really helpful is finding different ways of memorializing him and making him a part of new traditions. So we still have a stocking for him on the fire place. We have made crafts, little ornaments for the Christmas tree that she and I made together in remembrance of him. We make sure to spend holiday time with his family who is still very much our family and to really include him in the things that we do either through memories, or through creating small things that we can carry with us, or through creating new traditions that he can be a part of. And since his passing, we have found new family members and welcomed other people into our world, and I think that it would be really interesting to get their perspective on this, but they have been very open to him being a part of our traditions and our family, and I think that it can be maybe hard to balance the loss of a loved one with the integration of new loved ones. And it's a different kind of blended family. But, again, I think that open communication is the thing that has really made a difference for us, being willing to openly share our love for someone who is gone and at the same time share love for people who are here and know that they're not mutually exclusive, and know that we can all be a family together, and offering that knowledge and experience to my daughter, who has to learn to live with both the loss of her past and the future that awaits her. Dr. Bob: And partly the future that in some ways was created through that loss. Elizabeth: Yes. Dr. Bob: So we talk about silver linings. And after the death of someone who's young and vital, who we expected to be part of our life for decades to come, it's hard to think about silver linings in those circumstances, but sometimes we don't know ultimately what the purpose of our life is. We don't know what the meaning, the reason for our sometimes premature departure. But I know that there are many instances where a death has resulted in new relationships developing and new understandings developing, which wouldn't have happened otherwise. And we don't get to decide whether ... You don't get to weigh the consequences of one versus the other, but we have to appreciate that there are these positive outcomes. And, like you said, you have to reconcile that because I would imagine especially children, they would never want to think that it's okay that this happened, that death occurred because this happened. That would be very I think hard for someone to reconcile. But we have to somehow be okay with all of that, right? We have to learn to be okay with all of it. Elizabeth: Yeah. I at one point in my life received a label of the queen of the silver lining because of my [infallible 00:24:53] optimism. I think that that is not mutually exclusive with the experience of sorrow and teaching my daughter that we can be both happy with the life that we've built since the loss and also deeply wounded by the loss are not mutually exclusive, are something that we can reconcile and that we can live with simultaneously. It's difficult, and it takes a long time I think to bring those things together, to integrate them, but I think that like anything in life, there's a gray area that balances the life and the death, the light and the dark. And being able to live with that unknown, the in-between, I think that's a goal that I've encountered since losing someone that I loved. Dr. Bob: And I'm sure that that understanding has been extremely valuable for others that you've been able to counsel and engage with in your capacity as a social worker, as a friend. I do, the other thing that you mentioned that I completely, wholeheartedly agree with is the value of communication. It think the families, the people who have the most difficulty in struggle and have the most negative impact throughout their lives are those who can't communicate, who don't know how to communicate when they're in this, reeling through these circumstances that they didn't bring on, that they have no control over. Communication is so critical. Elizabeth: Absolutely, and I think that noticing that has been a huge part of what has inspired me to become an advocate for education in this field and for working to create those conversations and allow people to be a little bit more comfortable with acknowledging and experiencing the difficulty and the discomfort that surrounds conversations about life and death. Dr. Bob: Wow, a little light morning conversation topic, but this is really valuable. This is wonderful, and I think that there's so much more than we could tap into and touch on. And I'm going to ask if you're willing to come back and have an additional conversation or two with me? Elizabeth: I would be honored. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I think we have a lot more to discuss. We've been together and with some patients and families, and there will be many other opportunities for us to have these Life and Death Conversations, which I hope others will find some to be interesting and valuable. So thank you for sitting with me and having this conversation today. It was really informative, and really I'm sure valuable for many of our listeners. Elizabeth: Thank you for the invitation. Dr. Bob: Alright. Signing off now. We'll be back and chatting with you again soon.
Leaders, Bosses & Bastards: Episode Title What does it take for two very different, large organizations, with very different company cultures, to come together under the same overarching vision? Mickey interviews Bob Johnson, the Chief Executive Officer of Conversant, about all the conversational ins-and-outs that are involved in mergers, acquisitions and major organizational changes. Highlights As a leader, don’t assume that because you know where the organization is headed that everyone alongside you does as well. Smoothly navigating organizational change requires transparent and genuine conversation, showing your people what is happening and what decisions made it happen the way it is. Rather than just issue demands and later let employees know whether they met your undisclosed standards, be open about the needs of the company and offer the necessary tools to achieve those aims. To ensure you’re legacy is that of a leader rather than a bastard, follow up each interaction with the question: “What is the story people will tell about the conversation they just had with me?” Openly focus on what changes your leadership needs to make to benefit the company, and people will naturally begin to ask themselves that question about their own contribution. Rather than viewing organizational obstacles as mechanical or process problems to be fixed, approach them as human challenges that require specific conversations to be had. Navigating Organizational Changes 0:51 Mickey: We have with us the CEO of Conversant, Bob Johnson. Today we want to talk about mergers, acquisitions and other big, tumultuous organizational changes. What makes you someone we should listen to about that? 1:12 Bob Johnson: Well, I’m just a fascinating person, is one reason. But probably the more valid reason is, having been involved as far back as the Hewlett Packard and Compaq merger, I have a lot of experience directly in what is involved when we have two big organizations that have very different cultures and are coming together around what they think is the same aspiration. 1:52 Bob: Since then, I’ve been involved in a number of organizations that are going through mergers or acquisitions, or often just having to evolve and significantly disrupt their business model so they can, in some cases, survive, and in other cases, make a bigger difference. 2:22 Mickey: You were a senior executive with big accountabilities during the merger of Hewlett Packard and Compaq some years ago (Sept. 3, 2001). What were the biggest lessons that you’ve taken to all of these other companies you’ve supported since then? 2:42 Bob: Among the lessons is to be careful what your assumptions are going in—by that I mean: “I assume people see the benefit of two big companies coming together. I assume people will work hard to make this come together as quickly as possible. I assume that they will understand and act upon what we tell them.” 3:10 Bob: What I tell them is they’re merging because there’s a change they want to happen in their culture to have better business results and make a greater impact. While those words sound good, people have a real need to be in dialogue about understanding what they mean. 3:36 Bob: There are a series of conversations that are important that tend to be overlooked, causing rework and slowness later on. Are you involved in a dialogue so they sufficiently understand the purpose of the merger? Then they get to state what their purpose is inside of it as well. What is that intersection of where we’re going with this and what people are together on? 4:02 Bob: Given this change we’re trying to make, let’s be clear what that is and let’s look at our existing culture, behaviors and organization. There are some things we want to conserve, to honor and respect and bring forward. And there are some things we really know we need to change. 4:22 Bob: Change is going to involve our capability building and questioning models we’ve been operating under. Those are examples of phases that sometimes don’t get the attention they need and later on require a lot of work to go back and do better. Listen, Rather than Assume 3:37 Mickey: You were talking about assumptions and one of the biggest assumptions people have is, “Because I understand the reason we’re making a big change, you should be able to understand.” 4:49 Mickey: We frequently see senior leaders who have been involved in months (in some cases, a couple years) of conversations that lead to a major organizational acquisition or merger or divestiture. These leaders have become so intimately familiar with the change themselves that they forget it took then that long to get that familiar. 5:21 Mickey: They talk to other people about it, and as soon as they understand their own voice in their own head, they think they just made the point they want to make and assume everyone else just got it. 5:39 Bob: In one of the mergers, the leader was very clear on why it was important. I was part of a group she pulled together of 80 global leaders to launch this work. Someone raised their hand and said, “I still don’t completely understand what or why we’re doing this.” The leader just blew up and said, “I’ve distributed those plans. You have a very compelling slide deck that describes the path we’re on. I would have assumed you’d read this, and you obviously haven’t. That tells me you aren’t the leaders to do this.” And she left the meeting. 6:35 Bob: She eventually came back, acknowledging that we hadn’t had the sufficient conversations and that we were the people she wanted to be on this journey with. She realized she needed to listen and make sure it was clear. Leaders Respect, Bastards Demand 6:49 Mickey: You can think of it in terms of leaders, bosses and bastards. We say that a genuine, powerful leader is orchestrating the contribution of others, and they’re doing it in a way that people know they’re respected and cared for. 7:19 Mickey: The bosses just leave people instructions. The person you were talking about sounded like that. The bastards don’t even do that. Bastards just issue demands and let you know later whether you met undisclosed standards. 7:57 Bob: Bastards. There are plenty of them and they don’t know it. They would be stunned to think that people thought that of them, because it’s so obvious to them what’s happening. In some cases they just don’t engage. And then they wonder a year later why more progress isn’t made. 8:35 Mickey: And why some of their best and brightest decided to go somewhere else. You made an important point: people who are occurring as bastards are not that in their own minds. It really has to do with extraordinary insensitivity. 9:04 Mickey: On a particular merger, one leader from one side held a meeting with leaders from the two companies. He said, “Let’s get something very, very clear. This keeps getting written about as a ‘merger’. I want it to be clear: this is an acquisition. We have paid $X billion dollars for this company. We’re in charge of what happens next.” 9:45 Mickey: The toxic gossip and the number of people who began to polish resumes that came out of that meeting were extraordinary. That guy definitely occurred to people as a bastard. Writing the Stories We Want to Be a Part Of 10:08 Mickey: So much of the breakdown is people don’t do the patient and time-consuming work to understand who all of the different groups of people are who are crucial to the success of this combination. What are each of those groups’ distinct purposes, worries and circumstances? How do we engage them in conversation to clarify the reason for doing this that is actually sensitive to all of those purposes, concerns and circumstances? 10:46 Bob: Every organization has a story that is in continual motion and continually sharing. The story based on what you shared, is what’s the story about that leader who acted like a bastard? 11:19 Bob: Or do you create a story that has hope and aspiration in it? This is where I think we get in and really make a difference: creating the kinds of conversations you want with different people in the organization, who you know are highly connected to other people, that will generate a positive story. There’s still a lot of work to do, but do we have a good story from the beginning that people feel they want to be a part of? 11:54 Mickey: I love that as a way for really effective leaders to think about how to manage this kind of seismic change. You get a microcosm of that system together and ask, “What is the story that this merger or acquisition is a central moment in?” 12:30 Mickey: Having a positive story is exciting to people, because then the purpose becomes meaningful. Things become clear, in a way that people can share it, because it’s a story not a Powerpoint deck. 12:46 Mickey: Each senior leader in these organizations could ask him or herself after every meeting or significant interaction: “What story do I think people are telling about the conversation they just had with me? And how does that story fit with the story we say we’re writing for this change in organization?” 13:07 Bob: Leaders can take that analogy and think about, “What is the next chapter we want to write? What will it take for that story to be complete, whole, and inspire people to move into the next phase?” Self-Change Leads the Organizational Change 13:27 Bob: The other caution is you might have done a really good job to start, but you let it go. People are always looking for that indicator of where they won’t be allowed to be involved and they’ll get dominated. You have to be vigilant to avoid that. 13:47 Mickey: Be responsible for your assumptions and turn them into clear, open conversation. We spoke about that conversation being sensitive to the purposes, concerns and circumstances of the people you actually need to pull this off. It’s startling how often leaders are not sensitive to that. 14:06 Mickey: A word that gets used so much that it has become trivialized is “authenticity.” How open, transparent, genuine and human are the people responsible for this major organization change happening? 14:29 Mickey: How often are the leaders in an open, genuine conversation with other people? How do we make this something human that we are in together, rather than some formal set of manuals about how things are supposed to be? 14:47 Mickey: At another company we’re supporting and doing significant work, they’re expanding globally at a rate where their underlying processes have to evolve in huge, dramatic and rapid ways. The current processes cannot support the level of growth they’re having globally. 15:09 Mickey: The CEO has been there for the ride for over 10 years—very successful, very well thought of. He shared his concerns with people that the changes they were going through were not just the underlying processes of the company. They had to be changes in how he led. 15:35 Mickey: He was confronting that as an important question that he asked people to talk to him about. He said, “I want to know what you think this company needs from me in the new era that it didn’t need before? And what did it need in the past that it doesn’t need now?” He got extraordinary input. 16:06 Mickey: What happened after that is that people began to ask those questions about themselves: “As the company changes, what changes in me in order to make that successful?” Having someone that senior orchestrate development instead of asking for it from other people—that’s a leader. 16:27 Mickey: That’s someone really eliciting the interest, connection, contribution of others that really inspirits this kind of change. 16:37 Bob: I was in a conversation this morning with the top leader of an organization, who acknowledged that his leadership needs to shift for the organization to be able to have the impact they want. He asked a group of people to give him feedback, such as, “What is the unique contribution that this person and only this person can make?” 17:12 Bob: Part of the conversation from the group that was helping him was they came to the understanding that this change was not just about him as a leader. “This is about us as well.” 17:25 Bob: “However we answer the leadership at the top, what does that say about our leadership and how we engage the rest of our organization?” 17:39 Mickey: That does fit with our definition of leader, contrasted with boss or bastard. The boss would tell other people what they need to do that’s different. The leaders actually demonstrate that the changes in our enterprise call for me to evolve my own leadership. That naturally attracts other people in the same conversation. Make It Easy for People to See The New Direction 18:03 Mickey: It’s amazing to me in how many of these major organizational changes, people do not communicate enough about what is happening, why it’s happening and what criteria we used to decide what to say no and yes to. 18:33 Mickey: I’ve heard some people say, “We don’t have time for all of that.” And yet they end up having time for the disappointing execution and the failed meeting that people walk away from with stories that are not helpful to the future of the enterprise. They come with false cause like, “We don’t have the right people.” 18:55 Mickey: But they just didn’t manage to stay in an open, complete conversation so people could see where we’re going and what we’re doing. 19:05 Mickey: As I was driving in this morning, I was on a four-lane road and in a hurry. I was trying to make sure I was in the right lane for moving most quickly. I noticed that I wanted to change lanes because there was a big truck ahead and I couldn’t see what was in front of me. I had to keep myself from changing lanes. It turned out that the truck lane was much faster than the others, but everything in me wanted to move just because I couldn’t see. That’s what happens to people in these big companies; if they can’t see what we’re doing, why we’re doing it, and why we made these choices, then people end up making up all sorts of fearful stories. 19:54 Mickey: Investing in clear, chronic communication, being the source of information versus the subject of worried gossip is a crucial part of change. 20:10 Bob: If you take it back to the leaders, bosses and bastards, I’ve just come out of an experience from the last couple months with a person I’d say is a bastard (“I’m the smartest one here. Just do what I said. Make sure people do what I say and we’ll get where we want to go”). A year and a half later, they’re nowhere near where they need to go. The question he was unwilling to confront was “Why is that the case?” 20:44 Bob: How is happened is that he didn’t engage people. There was no element of co-creation. There was no transparency of the “why” they were making changes and the facts that contributed to them. 21:04 Bob: If you want to shift it, it requires your leadership and your stewardship of dialogue in the organization to shift the story they have about you, the lack of trust they have for you and their willingness to step into something they’ve clearly stepped out of. That’s a huge disruption. 21:22 Mickey: While it took him a year and a half to be open to having that conversation, that shows up on the P&L, the balance sheet and the cash flow. 21:32 Bob: It’s almost like, “What would be an effective transition for you from bastard to leader, and are you interested?” 21:42 Mickey: And what could that mean to the commercial success of the enterprise? Or, if it was not a for-profit, what could that mean for the mission success of the enterprise? Depending on the speed at which people own that something is not working well, what does my conduct have to do with that? 22:07 Mickey: Answering and asking that question is an act of leadership. For him, that the lag time was so long. In your future work with him, I hope he’ll work on reducing the time lag between when things are not going as planned and what his personal role might be in that. 22:29 Bob: In this case, he has been confronted with that and open to accepting it. One of the results of being a bastard is a year and a half of no progress. A leader really opens that up as transparent, invites people in and is interested in their point of view. What’s the possible result of being a leader? 23:03 Bob: In this case, setting a six month timeline of new ways to engage the organization in the hopes and dreams you have for yourself as a leader and them. And he’s in it. But it takes a shift. 23:16 Bob: As you can imagine, people are like, “Is this real?” Engaging Humans, Not Just Fixing Mechanics 23:40 Mickey: You relate to these really large organizational challenges as more human challenges than they are mechanical or process challenges—because the mechanics and the processes are invented and led by human beings. 24:02 Mickey: Most people do financial due diligence and all of this work on making plans that people are just supposed to follow. You actually relate to it more like engaging human beings early in conversation. 24:17 Mickey: You help solve challenges rather than just follow instructions and have them participate in what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. This approach fuels change so well, it’s shocking how many companies don’t do this. 24:50 Bob: Words matter. You’re a champion of that. The distinction inside of what you just described is: leaders who say, “I want you to follow me,” versus leaders who say, “I want you to join me.” 25:10 Bob: Following has a certain set of behaviors. Joining has a set of conversations, invitations and co-creations that need to occur. I know between the impact of being a followed leader versus a joined leader, joined leading gets you a lot further down the road, a lot faster, with better results and greater fulfillment. 25:25 Mickey: That’s a beautiful example of getting more done with less time, money and stress.
He Yang:A Sina Shanghai online survey found that close to 50 percent of respondents support pet’s-friendly workplaces. They say allowing pets at work relieves pressure and even spurs creativity. But could your furry friends rub off on coworkers the wrong way? Well, let’s talk about the survey findings first.Yu Yang:Yeah, the survey finds that nearly a half of people believe that having pets at work can help employees release intense pressure to stimulate more inspiration. Nearly 30% of online users suggest that pets at work makes working overtime no longer alone and boring, it is also conducive to the relationship between colleagues. However, about 10% of people think the pets will be harmful for the hygienic working environment and they may destroy office facilities sometimes. And 13% of total survey participants simply disagree because they don’t like animals.Bob:How can people not like animals? I love animals.He Yang:There are people who not like you, Bob.Yu Yang:Some people may be allergic to the lovely furry friend.Bob: Furry animal, the faces, those beautiful little faces looking at you. How could you not like them when they are so cute? He Yang:I know that’s a good point. But what about a lizard or a spider?Bob:Or a snake? I’m gonna say this all comes down to I guess, you know, what kind of pet, because lot of pets just aren’t practical in an office scenario or maybe we are talking about a shop or a restaurant, where you can’t really keep a dog or a cat in the restaurant or something like that. But curiously, I’m against the idea. He Yang:You are?Bob:Totally against the idea of having animals. I love animals so much, but as I want to run home to my pet and it will relax me and get me over the stresses and the strings of the day. But it was interesting one of those statistics, which is 25% suggesting that a pet would make working overtime no longer lonely and boring. Well, how about we don’t have to do overtime? How about we have a good work-life balance? And then we don’t need to have these stress beaters like pets and animals in the office, we just go home and have social life, maybe you know play with our dogs and cats home.Yu Yang:Oh, this is ideal situation, Bob, but for news people or other media people, sometimes you don’t know what kind of news is happening and you need to work on it. So sometimes you need to work overtime.He Yang:So Yu yang, do you agree with the idea of having a pet at the workplace?Yu Yang:I understand people’s love toward animals, but keep your love at your own place, not in workplace, because there might be some people who are allergic to the dog hair or cat hair or other name allergens. So it’s not good for the health of other people. And also there is safety hazard and some people just have fear deep down in their hearts, I’m one of them, ok. When I was a little girl, I was chased by a huge black dog of our neighbour’s, so that has very negative impact on me towards my feelings to dogs when I see a dog, especially large one, I feared. So it might be distraction of people’s work.Bob:It could take longer to do your work, because you gonna have to look after the pet, you gonna have to, you know, play with it, feed it, maybe take it for a walk. So you could actually end up with more stress, because you have got less time to do your work.He Yang:Or you can go the other way round, that is when you have a furry little being in the office and it comes to, you know, your chair and then you can just rub it and then it goes to the next desk.Bob:Sorry, are you describing a pet or Ryan?Heyang:I think we have mentioned he’s a tall guy.So yeah, not the little furry one, which is so cute and some people are saying that having a pet in the office, people sort of forge more trust and more communication between each other.Bob:That I can understand.Yu Yang:Yeah, pet lovers usually share a lot in common, so it’s easier to build a trust among them.He Yang:And also a lot of start-ups, the cool, young companies allow this to attract younger employees and to be more accommodating to their employees. I think that is the gesture that are trying to show. And also there are some other studies saying that when you have a pet in the office, people walk around a lot more. It’s actually good for your health and there also some healthy chemicals that could be released just because you have a pet around, you can enjoy those chemicals at home and at work.Bob:We’re going to get a pet. We’re going to have a roundtable cat.He Yang:I want a dog.Bob:No, we can’t have a dog.Yu Yang:It’s a hard decision. It’s a hard decision.He Yang:That is a hard decision. And we want your suggestion. So send us a message on Wechat. We are ezfmroundtable, you can find us anytime, anywhere.
Heyang: A survey has found around 70 percent of respondents say that Chinese children begin learning English right before school age and of course we want to know if that is a good time to start learning a foreign language? Guys, let's start with the survey and its results first. Does it make any sense to you?Bob: I think well 59.4% of respondents started learning English between the ages of 3 and 5 while 7.8% of those surveyed began studying before the age of 3. I think that figure is the one that worries me slightly because this is learning another subject which I'm guessing that they would not necessarily need in daily life. I'm making a distinction there because where I come from a lot of people learn 2 languages at the same time in the home and they use both languages together equally. So perhaps in the home they'll use one language, they'll walk to a shop and use a different one, then they go to school and use their first language again. So that to me is a natural way of learning languages because you are using it on a daily basis. It's not learning a subject. It is something which you are taking as part of yourself. Xu Qinduo: Speaking from this point of view basically; it's not really about learning English before the school age. It's about learning any subject before the school age. Is that a good thing? Is that proper? That's the question! Of course we have to realize that cases are different from one another, they vary. Some cases, they probably have the language aptitude so probably it is easy for them to pick up a new language by watching TV or by listening to stories. It's easy for them! For others, probably later stage is better for you to pick up a new language. But in general I think that there is a bit over-emphasis for Chinese parents in terms of having their kids learn English or other subjects. Heyang: But, why are Chinese parents so eager in pushing their kids to start learning something from the tender age of 3? How is that?Xu Qinduo: I think it's based on this popular understanding which is not necessarily correct, the earlier the better. It's like in a competition where when you start first, you gain the advantage here.Bob: It's about parents wanting the best for their children. I guess they feel that learning English is going to give them a good start. They are going to have to learn it at some point anyway. Later on, they need to pass exams before they get anything else. So, I can understand that. I think I saw a survey somewhere that suggested if you start learning 2 or 3 languages at the same time, you never really get the depth of any one language. There's only so much you can take in. So it might look good if you are bilingual or maybe trilingual but the depth of the language is not so much as if you were learning or studying one. Xu Qinduo: Definitely. I tend to agree with that because it takes a lot of time to learn another language. If you are learning a third language, you don't have enough time to go deep in your native language in your first language say written literature. Bob: So, the first language is going to miss out?Xu Qinduo: Yeah, miss out, sacrifice to some degree. Also, learning 2 languages at the same time also you can see that they usually react a bit slower than it appears. But, ultimately as time goes on, they will pick up and basically have a good command of both languages. Good command to a degree, remember, what is a good command of language? Is it about you're able to say "Hi" or "Good Morning" or daily conversation or you are involved in academic discussions or you can write novels using both languages. It's about really the standards.Heyang: Yeah and if the parents have that kind of standards, they're asking for too much I'd say. I think for parents, yes they want the best for their kids and especially when it comes to learning a language, you can learn so many different other skills but when it comes to languages, there seems to be a common perception that the earlier you start the better secured you are in success of managing, mastering that language as you grow up. What do you guys think of that?Xu Qinduo: I think so in the sense that's right. A lot of research has shown that if you want to learn a new language, younger age is a better choice than say if you start from the age of 20. Heyang: Yeah…What do you think Bob?Bob: I was going to say, I keep on quoting studies that I don't know the name of but I'm going to say them anyway. One they've decided that if you learn a language, it actually helps you learn other things because you're learning something which has a flexible structure. But, also if you learn math which has a defined structure, that helps the brain. So, I'd like to see kids in primary school, the first school that they go to learning a language and I'd like to see them learning mathematics as well. I just think those are the 2 things that will put them in a good place for the rest of their life, for the rest of their education. Heyang: Yeah, I think actually I was trying to get at was if you start early, which you would be able to get that success in that language actually isn't the answer is no for me as I've actually done a little of my own research and surveying around people that I know who started learning a foreign language when they were really young often because their parents were working in a different country. So, they brought their kids with them and yes, when you're so young at 3 or 4 years old, you're starting that language acquisition process. Our brains work like sponges and it's so easy to take it in. But, is it so easy to keep it? That is a completely different story. So, more importantly is it about as we grow up, during the process of that, you still studied really hard.Xu Qinduo: Keep onHeyang: Keep going! That's the success to mastering a language and so many of our listeners have been asking me: "How did I do it?" I feel flattered. Yes, I started at 6 in the U.S. but then it was years of hard work of devotion into the language I loved that is English. Xu Qinduo: Hard work is the key.Heyang: I guess so. And also, you know what, listening to Roundtable and that's how you improve and maybe one day you can even become a host on an awesome show called Roundtable.
I never realized how powerful, motivational and inspirational one little red book, one email and one long distance exchange could play in my life, but that exact time in my life, September 30th, 2013, was a pivotable point in my career. The first email contact I made with Bob Burg, author of The Go-Giver (coauthored by John David Mann), was brief. I wrote, “Dear Bob, Literally standing in Barnes and Noble, reading the first few pages of Go-Giver, and I am hooked. Any advice for an up and coming speaker?” While I was hoping to get an answer, I was not expecting to get one in under 30 minutes. In addition to the wonderful advice provided by Bob, it was obvious it was not a “canned” response, leading me to believe Bob truly was a giver, his real life principles mirroring the description of his book, “Heartwarming and inspiring...brings new relevance to the old proverb ‘Give and you shall receive.'” Over two years later and dozens of email exchanges, Bob has lived up to his book title, he really is a Go-Giver. Bob has provided priceless advice via email, countless tidbits of sage wisdom through his blog and soon, Bob will sound loud and clear, as I interview him on The Nice Guys on Business podcast. His spot (Episode #104) airs February 5th.Subscribe to the podcast via iTunes (or your favorite podcast provider) and it will automatically be sent to you. Everyone I meet that has had an opportunity to come in contact with Bob Burg genuinely feels as I do, pleasantly surprised by how accessible and gracious he is. His contacts on social media, colleagues, podcasters, other professional trainers, coaches, consultants and even competitors love this guy because he is genuine, caring, empathetic, compassionate and giving. Bob's view on the importance of personal relationships in this high tech world today. “All things being equal, people will do business with, and refer business to, those people they know, like and trust. No matter how big you grow your business via social networks, do not lose sight, people do business with people, and not computers. It's the person in front of the social platform they are doing business with, and it's something you should never forget” Highlights: Doug - Do you personally connect with everyone that reaches out to you? And if so, how? Bob- We all have to put a value on what we believe. I hold personal connections to be of high value to me. It's worth the extra time for me to make the personal connections. Doug - How does giving as a means to getting really work? Is this a trend or is this something that is here to stay? Bob- I think that people who have always conducted their business by looking to provide value to others, have been successful. Early on, when the book Go-Givers came out, the early adopters, the people already doing this, the leaders and top business people, the very successful business people, said the book didn't teach us anything new. We take that as a compliment. But this is what they have tried to teach their people about. Their people wouldn't really listen to them but the book was like third party validation. Doug - What is the key to being successful? Bob - Being successful is the result of doing the correct things in the success process in a way that allows you to be successful. Being nice is great. In fact, it's hugely important. However, if you were nice but did not do what you promised, or put no effort into follow up, or were not able to find sufficient ways to add value to others, it won't work. Doug - What is the basic premise of the Go-Giver? Bob - It's simply that shifting your focus from getting to giving is not only a nice way to live life, but a very financially profitable way, as well. Doug - How can you make it so you don't get taken advantage of as a Go-Giver? Bob - Being a Go-Giver should never be confused with being taken advantage of. It simply means you are going to focus on what you do, providing value to that person. Doug - What are some of the obstacles standing in the way of someone choosing to become a Go-Giver today? Bob - Someone who has grown up with or has been exposed to a really lousy way of doing business or thinking they must take advantage of others in order to be successful to get the limited pie (in order to get someone else has to give up), they will have to make a shift when they acknowledge there is an issue in the way they are currently doing business. That it's not resulting in the success they want, both financially and in their enjoyment of what they're doing. Of course, if they don't want to change; in other words, if they don't feel there's anything they need to change, they probably won't. Doug - Give me one nugget for the people that want to take action. What's the takeaway that they can put into place today. Bob - Ultimately, as Dale Carnegie told us in his classic, How to Win Friends and Influence People, "People do things for their reasons, not our reasons." I think if we will always keep that in mind, whether we are dealing with somebody in the sales process or dealing with someone socially or emotionally, or in any way, if we understand that anything they are going to do they are going to do for their reason, then we're on the right track. Bob is passionate about providing the Go-Giver message and has inspired people worldwide through his book and his keynote speaking. Bob also teaches other speakers via his Certified Go-Giver Speaker Program licensing and training others on his great philosophy. His programs, books and any information about his company can be found by visiting his website atwww.Burg.com . To listen to the full interview, go to DougSandler.com or subscribe via iTunes. Air date is February 5th, Episode 104. Special thanks to Bob Burg for giving so much and adding a generous supply of value to our relationship. Want to get pinned on our listener map? Just go to http://www.dougsandler.com/podcast-by-the-nice-guys/ and answer the question, where are you from? And we'll add you to the map. You can see it here- http://www.niceguysonbusiness.com/services.html Subscribe to the Podcast Don't underestimate the Power of Nice.
Sales doesn’t have to be hard. It can be easy, but only if you know the secrets of building profitable relationships. Join us for this incredible interview and discover the time-tested strategies and tactics for how to handle people in a way that excites them and leaves them asking for more. Bob Burg is a sought-after speaker at company leadership and sales conferences sharing the platform with everyone from today’s business leaders and broadcast personalities to even a former U.S. President. Bob is the author of a number of books on sales, marketing and influence, with total book sales of well over a million copies. His book, The Go-Giver, coauthored with John David Mann has sold over half a million copies and it has been translated into 21 languages. It is now being released in a new, expanded edition, with a foreword by Huffington Post founder and publisher, Arianna Huffington. Bob is an advocate, supporter and defender of the Free Enterprise system, believing that the amount of money one makes is directly proportional to how many people they serve. He is also an unapologetic animal fanatic, and serves on the Board of Trustees of Furry Friends Adoption & Clinic in his town of Jupiter, Florida. How To Say No When You Just Don’t Want To Do Something? Do you want to always please others? Are you afraid of hurting other people’s feelings? Are you afraid to say “NO”? What is it really about saying no that we try to avoid? As human beings, we always seem to have that instinct to please others. We often think that by saying “No” we are going to offend some one…and that it’s not appropriate or nice. It is not congruent in today’s society and our value system, to treat people with disrespect. We’re afraid of losing an important person in our life or even miss out on an opportunity. We don’t want to say “No” because others might think that we’re being unproductive. Believe it or not, we are taught to say No, and the word “No” is already a complete sentence. We are more happy and productive when we do the things that we want to do and not the things we are compelled to do. “Unless you want to do something or there is a compelling reason for you to do it, then you shouldn’t” -Bob Burg Bob Burg shares with us the secrets of being polite in this extremely valuable interview. For instance, if you don’t want to do something for whatever reason, maybe it’s due to lack of time, lack of knowledge or inclination, then just say “no” politely and thank whoever it is for asking. The reasons for saying no are your reasons and yours alone. The Results Of Saying No Politely You can say “No” and still feel good after saying it. Better yet, you can also leave the person you’re talking to with a good feeling, too – even though you’re declining their offer or request. If you don’t want to do something, you can just simply say no politely. Make sure to thank them for asking you and say how honored and humbled you are by being asked. Unless the person you’re talking to is the kind of person who gets angry for any reason, they probably can’t afford to get mad at you. If you do it right, they might even thank you for the way you turned them down. The 5 Undisputable Laws Of Business Success The Law Of Value – Your true worth is determined by how much more you give in value that you take in payment. Most people will think that this is a recipe for bankruptcy, but it’s not. To really get the concept, you might first need to understand the difference between price and value. Price - It is a dollar figure, an amount. It is finite. Value - It is the relative worth or desirability of something from the end user’s point of view. It is how you might desire a product, service, concept or idea that brings so much worth or value that you are willing to exchange your money, your time and your energy. The Law Of Compensation – Your income is determined by how many people you serve and how well you serve them. Your income is determined not just by the value you provide but how many lives you impact with value. The Law Of Influence – Your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people’s interest first. The greatest leaders, top influencers, and the most profitable sales people run their lives and their business through the power of influence. It is all about you looking for ways to place the interest of others first. When you place other people’s interest first, it doesn’t mean that you will become a doormat, martyr or that you even have to sacrifice yourself for them…but it is seeing all things as equal. It is moving from an “I Focus” to “An Other’s Focus”. “Golden rule of business is to see all things and people as being equal, it is moving from an “I Focus” to “An Other’s Focus” Bob Burg “Be the Protégé, making your win all about the other person’s win” Bob Burg Building A Bigger, Stronger More Responsive List Of Subscribers Is The Fastest And Easiest Way To Add More Profits To Your Bottom Line. The Law Of Authenticity – The most valuable gift you offer is yourself. Bob mentioned one of his mentors, Debra Davenport. She explained that all the skills in the world like sales, technical and people skills, as important as they are, they are all for naught if you don’t come at it from your true, authentic core. When you show up as yourself, day in and day out, week after week, month after month, you can expect that people will feel good about you. They will feel comfortable with you because they know, either in a personal or business relationship, they can like and trust you. The Law Of Reciprocity – The key to effective giving, is to be open to receiving. All the giving in the world won’t benefit you if you are not willing and able to allow yourself to receive as well. You want a sustainable life? You’ve got to breathe in and breathe out. Life is all about giving and receiving. “The key to effective giving is to be open to receiving” -Bob Burg Being A Go-Giver The common misconception about being a go-giver, especially to those who haven’t read the book yet, is that Go-Givers are just always giving themselves away. As if those people don’t care about making a profit. This is just not true. A Go-Giver type of person, gives value constantly and not just gives themselves away. In fact, Go-Givers tend to make a much larger profit that others because they sell high value rather than low price. They know that when you sell “Low price”, you become a commodity. When you sell on value, you become a resource. “A Go-Giver knows that when you sell “Low price”, you become a commodity but when you “Sell value”, you become a resource” Another misconception is that Go-Givers don’t know how to say “No”. Go-givers actually say “No” a lot. Most go-givers are very successful. Typically, they are very busy and they don’t have much time say “yes” to everyone and everything. One great thing about being a Go-giver is, they know how to say “no” in a way that honors the other person. Increase Your Income by Building Relationships with Influencers, VIPs, and Top Performers, Even If You Hate Networking 4 Master Level Lessons To live by If you want to make a lot of money in business or make a lot of money in sales, then do not use “making money” as your sole goal. Your goal should be serving others. When you achieve your goal, you’ll receive a reward. That reward can be money or an opportunity that leads to money. Of course, you can use that money in whatever way that you want - but never forget, money is NOT only the reward for hitting your target. It’s not the goal itself. The goal should be in serving others. Selling is not about you, it is always about the customer. Selling is discovering what somebody wants, what they need or desires and helping them to get it. Great leadership is never about the leader, great influence is never about the influencer and great salesmanship is never about the sales person. It is always about the other person. It is about everyone whose lives you chose to touch and lives you chose to add value to. [content_toggle style="1" label="Click%20Here%20To%20Read%20The%20Full%20Show%20Transcript" hide_label="Hide"] Bob: Hi, I’m Bob Burg, coauthor of the Go-Giver and tonight we’ll look at how a small shift in focus can have significant results for your business. Woman: Are you in business or thinking about starting a new business and could do with a bit of help and guidance when it comes to social media? Then you’re in the right place. Social media can seem daunting and even frustrating but it doesn’t have to be. That is why we offer insights and experience from social media experts from around the world. Discover tips, tricks and information that will help you leverage the power of social media so you can start growing your business today. Welcome to social media business hour with your host Nile Nickel. Jordan: Hello and thank you again for joining us. This is Nile’s trusty sidekick and cohost Jordan and I’d like to take a moment to share with you how you could benefit from Nile’s incredible experience using social media for real business success. If you’re an entrepreneur or thinking about starting your own business then using social media might be the most cost effective and time effective way to get your business real results. That’s not to mention much of what you could do to get those terrific results on social media is even free. Take Linked In for example. Nile always says it’s the best social media platform for business today. And that’s why I recommend you go to linkedinfocus.com and start your social media education today. Sign up for Nile’s free tips, tricks and strategies. Once again, it’s free and it only takes a few seconds. Go to linkedinfocus.com today. You’ll be glad you did. Nile: Hey, welcome back and we are so excited tonight. We have a return guest Bob Burg. He was with us in episode 33. Jordan: Yes, the infamous episode 33. Nile: The infamous. As a matter of fact, we get more questions about that episode than any other episode. Jordan: That’s right. And accusation. Nile: Because everybody thinks we baited them. Jordan: That’s right. That’s right. Nile: We didn’t do that, didn’t we Bob? Bob: No, not at all. Nile: Yeah, we just haven’t got back together to sort of complete that interview but just to give everybody a little bit of recall Bob is really a very sought after speaker at company leadership and sales conferences sharing the platform with everyone from today’s business leaders, broadcast personalities even to a former US president. He’s the author of a number of books on sales, marketing and influence with the total book sales of well over a million copies. His book the Go-Giver coauthored with John David Mann has sold over a half million copies and has been translated into 21 languages. It’s now being released in a new expanded edition with a foreword by Huffington Post founder and publisher Arianna Huffington. Bob is an advocate, supported and defender of the free enterprise system believing that the amount of money one makes is directly proportional to how many people they serve. He’s also an unapologetic animal fanatic and serves on the board of trustees of Furry Friends, Adoption and Clinic in his home town of Jupiter, Florida. We make fun of Florida a lot Jordan but we’re there and so -- Jordan: Well, that gives us license. Nile: That gives us license I guess. So, Bob welcome back. Bob: Well, thanks. Great being back with you guys. Nile: It is awesome to have you back. It’s always a pleasure. You just always have so many great insights and really valuable information but we’re going to go back to the end of episode 33 now and we were talking about how people don’t have time and some of the answers that they give and you were giving an answer and last time technology wasn’t our friend and it cut off in the middle of the answer and people think that we did that intentionally. So, let me take you back to that and let’s just sort of replay that a bit. So, if you don’t have time and you really want to give an honest answer. You were starting to give some recommendations so let’s jump back into that and then we’ll jump into today’s interview. Bob: Sure. Well, it was really about how to say no when you just don’t want to do something. Whether you have time or not it may not be the question. It’s typically we have time to do those things we want to do or feel drawn to do. we never have time to do something we don’t really want to do so it really comes down to is it something you want to do or not and unless there is a compelling reason for you to do it in your mind’s eye then if you really don’t want to then you shouldn’t. Now, the problem is with telling people no, I don’t want to do it. Why? Because as human beings we want to please others. We want to come through for people assuming it’s not a -- assuming that it’s something that’s worthy or something that’s not inappropriate but let’s say for example and I think we used the example of being asked to serve on a committee. Nile: Exactly. Bob: And it’s -- yeah. And it’s something you don’t want to do for whatever reason. You may not feel like you have the time or the knowledge or the inclination, whatever. That’s your business. One way people are taught to kind of say no is to well, just say no. no is a complete sentence and so forth. And people fell often empowered when they hear that but very rarely is someone going to do that. Is someone going to say no, I don’t want to? Because it’s not nice, it’s not congruent with your value system of treating people with respect and you’re probably going to lose a friend or a potential friend or other opportunities when you do it that way so it’s really -- saying no that way isn’t necessarily appropriate and it’s not particularly productive. So, the other way people do it is to say they don’t have time. Oh, I’d really like to but I’m sorry. I just don’t have time. Well, again, the challenge with doing that is you do have the time if you want to do it. You probably don’t want to do it which again is fine. That’s okay. But the challenge with saying I don’t have time is that the other person comes across this all the time and they know how to answer that objection if you will. And when they do so compellingly then you’re in a position where you either have to admit that really I just don’t want to and so you’re kind of saying I lied which doesn’t make them feel good about you and you don’t feel good about yourself or in order to save face you need to take on the assignment or accept the -- their request which you really don’t want to do and then that’s a losing situation for you. So, rather than doing either of those we can say no in way that respects the other person and honors the other person while also respecting our boundaries. And so the way I would suggest is this and that’s very simple. When -- and again, let’s say you’re being asked to serve on a committee you don’t want to serve on. You simply say to the person thank you so much for asking. While it’s not something I’d like to do please know how honored I am to be asked. And that’s it. Okay. And what you’ve done is you’ve answered the question in a way that’s not only polite. It’s very respectful. You’ve honored this other person. You’ve thanked them for asking. You’ve let them know it’s not something you’d like to do or something you choose to do but that you’re honored to have been asked. And unless this person is really someone who is going to be mad at someone for whatever reason they can't be mad at you. In fact, they’re going to feel good about you and they’re going to -- they may even thank you for the way you turned them down. I’ve had that happen to me and others have said the same. So, again, it’s simply thank you so much for asking. While it’s not something I’d like to do please know how honored I am to be asked. Nile: And now we’ve got that great answer to close out episode 33 so adversity to allies. Go back to episode 33 and listen to that. It’s really great stuff. Bob: Thank you. Nile: But tonight you’re touching my heart a bit here. I don’t know how long ago it was that I actually started listening to the Go-Giver on Audible and I enjoyed it so much I actually then got the book sort of backwards of what a lot of people do. But you and John David Mann published that back in 2007. That’s for all practical purposes nine years ago. What has motivated you to take that book which is a great book? If people haven’t read it we’re going to have a link up on the website and of course the expanded edition as well of course. But for the people that haven’t read that what was really the inspiration for that? Bob: Well, years ago, many years ago I had a book out called Endless referrals, network your everyday contacts into sales which was really for people in sales who didn’t necessarily feel comfortable with the selling process or with meeting people and developing the relationships that it took to really have a steady stream of qualified prospects and referrals and the premise of the book was that all things being equal people will do business with and refer business to those people they know, like and trust. The way you develop these relationships is to really take the focus off of yourself. Move from what we call an eye focus or me focus and move to an other focus always looking for ways to add value to their lives. You could even say placing their interests first. And so I through the years -- and it was a how to book and through the years I’ve read a lot of business parables, short books that had an impactful message and were entertaining and fun to read. Books such as Ken _____23:30 Spencer Johnson’s One minute series, the One minute manager, the One minute sales person, the One minute apology. Spencer Johnson had -- and Ken _____23:41 had a number of other books through the years and there were many other people who wrote parables and I always enjoyed them. I thought what a great way to learn an important message. Nile: Sure. Bob: And to do it in a short period of time. And I thought wouldn’t it be neat if we could take the general underlying message, the premise if you will from endless referrals and put it into a parable. And so I had the basic idea in the title the Go-Giver but that was pretty much it. and so I asked John David Mann who was the editor and chief of a magazine I was writing for at the time or I had written for in the past and I knew John to have an amazing reputation as a writer and at that time -- now John is in demand everywhere. At that time only people within a certain niche market really knew of his genius and I knew that I wanted him to be the lead writer and major storyteller of the book because I knew I couldn’t do it justice myself. I’m a how to author. I’m not really a parable writer. And so John and I got together and collaborated on it and thanks to his expert writing the book really turned out to have an emotional appeal with people and it’s something that we both believe very strongly in the message and we continue to promote it and it’s been sort of like the ever ready the energizer bunny, whatever it was. That just keeps on going and we’re very grateful for that. Nile: Well, and it is such a beautiful story. It’s easy to get into the story and you’re weaving just invaluable business messages and life lessons into the story. In fact, one of the things that I like as you get into the story, you had a gentleman that just really wasn’t happy with his life. We’re not talking about business. We’re just talking about his life. And with the changes that he learned over time not only did his life change but his business changed dramatically as well. It’s really just a fantastic parable as you said. Bob: Oh, thank you. Nile: And I love the -- and it’s a short read. I think it’s 127 pages and those are small pages. And you end up with the five laws of stratospheric success. That was hard to say. Bob: It is hard to say. Nile: But just valuable lessons. One of the things you do is you talk about the entrepreneurial spirit. But what about those people who aren’t entrepreneurs? Does that message in the Go-Giver still apply to them? Bob: It really does because even if someone is not an entrepreneur in terms of starting their own business they still need to think entrepreneurially even when they are simply an employee within a small or major corporation because remember, in this case you still have your own business and that business is you and you’re selling your time, you’re selling your knowledge, your wisdom, you’re selling your services, you are selling your value to your employer and the only reason that they are going to have you in their company is because they feel they’re receiving more in use value from you than what they’re paying and that only makes sense. Otherwise why would they shell out money, right, to have you working in their organization? By the same token it works the other way too. The employer can add great value to their employees over and above their -- the paycheck by creating an environment where people feel valued, where they look forward to coming to work, where they feel as though they’re making a difference, where they’re learning things that can help them progress in their life after that particular job, what have you. So, it’s really a two way street. Everyone can be entrepreneurial in terms of looking for ways to focus on the other person, on adding value to others and that’s why that shift in focus makes all the difference in the world. When you’re an employee who’s focused truly on providing exceptional value to your employer when the layoffs come you’re still going to have your job. Nile: It’s so, so right and so valuable. Well, we’re going to talk about the five laws and all of that right after we take this short break. Jordan: All right. It’s time for another social media marketing moment. Nile, do me a favor. Talk to me about headshots in Linked In. yeah, I hear you talking to people about that all the time. Nile: Well, one thing that’s so funny is so many people don’t take that headshot seriously. They’ve got their arm around somebody that’s not in the picture or they’re deep in the background you could barely see who they are. Want to know an interesting fact? People that look at your Linked In profile spend 80 percent of their time looking at your profile, looking at your headshot. Why is that? It’s because people like to look into your eye. They feel if they look into your eye that they could see what you’re about. They get an understanding of who you are and that’s important before they move anywhere else. Jordan: Another great pearl of wisdom. Thanks Nile. For more just like that join us at linkedinfocus.com, sign up. You’ll be glad you did. Nile: Hey, welcome back to the social media business hour where we’re talking with Bob Burg, the author of the Go-Giver and there’s a new expanded edition that Bob’s just put out. We talked a little bit about that in the first segment but one of the things that we talked about is the five laws and can you maybe give us a quick review of the five laws that you and John share in the book? Bob: Sure. The five laws themselves are the laws of value, compensation, influence, authenticity and receptivity. The law of value says your true worth is determined by how much more you give in value than you take in payment. Now, this sounds like a recipe for bankruptcy when you first hear it but it’s not because we need to simply understand the difference between price and value. Price is a dollar figure, a dollar amount. It’s finite. It is what it is. Value on the other hand is the relative worth or desirability of a thing of something to the end user or the holder. In other words what is it about this thing, this product, service, concept, idea that brings so much worth or value to it that someone will willingly exchange their money for it or their time or their energy, what have you, in order to obtain this value and feel great about it while you make a very healthy profit? And this can be anything from someone selling accounting services to someone owning a pizza restaurant. When someone buys a pizza for 15 dollars and the pizza is absolutely delicious; they’re really hungry so that pizza has even more value to them; they’re eating it with their family and they have a great family experience; your pizza restaurant -- everyone there makes them feel just fantastic for being there, valued and appreciated and you do this consistently with excellence. You’ve give this person well over 15 dollars in value. Okay, so they feel fantastic about it. They receive much more in value than what they paid but because the pizza and your employees and everything else probably cost you about three dollars per pizza you also made a very, very healthy profit. So, both parties come out ahead and that’s why understanding the difference between price and value is so very important but it all starts with that focus on providing value to that other person which is why John and I both say that money is simply an echo of value. It’s the funder if you will to values lightning which means the value must come first and the money is simply a very natural and direct result of the value you’ve provided. That’s the law of value. The law of compensation says your income is determined by how many people you serve and how well you serve them. So, where law number one says to give more in value than you take in payment law number two tells us that the more people whose lives you touch with the exceptional value you provide, the more money with which you’ll be rewarded. The pizza restaurant owner -- I’m not sure how we got into that but that’s how -- who we used it for so let’s continue with that. Nile: Sure. Bob: The pizza restaurant owner, it’s not enough just to provide value to one person. They have a lot of guests in every single night and so the income is determined not just by the value they provide but how many lives they impact with that value. So, law number one represents your potential income. Law number two, the number of lives you impact with that value. That equals your actual income. Now, law number three is the law of influence. This says your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people’s interests first. Again, this sounds counter intuitive but it’s really -- it makes a lot of sense because when you think about it the greatest leaders, the top influencers, the most profitable sales people, this is how they run their lives and conduct their businesses. They’re always looking for ways to place the interest of others first. Now, when we say this and let me qualify this. When we say place other people’s interests first we certainly don’t mean you should be anyone’s doormat or a martyr or self-sacrificial in any way. Not at all. It’s just that as we mentioned earlier in the show, the golden rule of business is that all things being equal people will do business with and refer business to those people they know, like and trust and there’s no faster, more powerful or more effective way to elicit those feelings toward you from others than by -- again, moving from an I focus to an other focus as Sam, one of the mentors in the story told Joe, the protégé, making your win about the other person’s win. And then you have number four. Law number four is the law of authenticity which says the most valuable gift you have to offer is yourself. One of the mentors, Debra Davenport explained that all the skills in the world, the sales skills, technical skills, people skills, as important as they are and they all are very, very important, they’re all for naught if you don’t come at it from your true authentic core. When you do however, when you show up as yourself day after day, week after week, months after month, people feel good about you, they feel comfortable with you, they know, like and trust you. They want to be in a relationship with you. They want to do business with you and refer you to others. And law number five, the law of receptivity says the key to effective giving is to stay open to receiving. All the giving in the world is all for naught if you’re not willing and able to allow yourself to receive as well. In the story we use the example of breathing out and breathing in. it’s not just the matter of doing one or the other. In order to sustain life you’ve got to breathe out and breathe in. we breathe out, we breathe in, we give, we receive. Giving and receiving, contrary to popular belief and popular culture; giving and receiving are -- they’re not opposite concepts. They’re simply to sides of the very same coin and they work best in tandem. Nile: As you go through your description there; sort of distancing myself from the story because I can do this now this sounds very spiritual. In fact, I feel almost like I’m being churched. But one of the things that I noticed in the book was the way that you weave it into the story and into the lives in the story. As I said earlier on it really becomes more than a business story. I mean, it sounds like we’re talking about business here because we’re relating it to business but it was really all about life in general and business just became a natural part of it. Is that a fair assessment? Bob: Yeah, I think that life and business -- all the aspects, all the areas of life are intertwined. People talk about balance, work and life balance or work life and personal life. I’m not sure balance -- and I’m certainly not the first one to say this but I’m not sure balance is the right word as much as harmony is maybe more -- Nile: I like that. Bob: Yeah. Again, I didn’t make that up. That’s something I’ve heard. I’m not that smart. I don’t have a whole lot of original thoughts. John does. I don’t. Nile: Well, I know that you listen well and you collect those thoughts and you repeat them well so there’s value that you’re giving there so I appreciate it. Bob: Thank you. And so I’ve never believed in that story about the person who could be one way at work and another way at home. I’m all nasty, so and so at work but oh, when I get home I’m kind and I’m gentle and -- people pretty much are what they are. I remember reading a great book by _____37:07 called secrets of the millionaire mind and the theme that went through his book -- I just love this -- was that how you do anything is how you do everything. Nile: Exactly. Bob: And I think that’s basically true and I think because of that universal laws and principles, work across the board, _____37:25 anything that works in life is pretty much going to work right across the way in business and vice versa. Nile: Absolutely. Well, again, knowing how you received the messages that are sent to you there -- I’m curious and we’ve got about three minutes or so before the break. If there’s a piece, one piece of advice that maybe you received before you knew anything about what being a Go-Giver entailed that really was a difference maker for you. Bob: When I was just starting to get my legs in sales, just starting to produce a little bit, I remember coming back to the office after what I will call a non-selling appointment. In other words, the sale did not happen and -- Nile: So, that’s what we call those now? Non selling appointments? Bob: Right. Nile: I like that. Bob: That’s like misremembering something, right? And I remember one of the older -- I guess he was a guy who was about to retire and he kind of took me aside. I think he saw me as sort of like Joe in the story and saw me as a guy with good potential but who really needed to adjust his focus and he said to me something like Burg if you want to make a lot of money in business, if you want to make a lot of money in sales, do not have making money as your target. Your target is serving others. Now, when you hit the target, he continued, you’ll receive a reward and that reward will be money and you can do with that money whatever you want but never forget that the money is only the reward for hitting the target. It’s not the target itself. The target is serving others. And I just was hit right in the heart by that advice and for me it was really a difference maker. What it told me is that selling is not about me. It’s always about the customer. And I personally define selling as -- simply as discovering what somebody wants, needs or desires and helping them to get it. And I think in all sorts of instances -- I think great leadership is never about the leader. Great influence is never about the influencer and great salesmanship is never about the sales person. It’s always about the other person. It’s about everyone whose lives you choose to touch. It’s about everyone whose lives you choose to add value to. Nile: Well, I know we don’t have a great deal of time in the segment but what you just said really resonated with me because I’ve been in sales for quite a number of years as well and I’ve always considered myself a consultive seller meaning that I really want to listen and I want to consult with the clients and if there’s something that I have to offer them that offers them value then certainly I’d like to have them consider that but my big question is do you really need what I’m selling. There may be a better solution for you. And I remember going through that a number of times in the past and sometimes my recommendation was you don’t need my product. You may want it and somewhere down the line I hope that you use my product but this is what you need today. And I remember with some associates some time they’d say what are you doing? And I’m saying don’t worry. That always comes back. They either find somebody that needs exactly what I have and they refer me to them because I wasn’t trying to sell them. I was trying to help them. I was trying to give them value and what you said really just struck me so I think there’s just such a powerful message there and sometimes we miss it and I know that that’s the part of the message of the Go-giver as well. There’s so much more to talk about. We’ve got one more segment to share but what we’re going to do is we’re going to take a short break, do a couple of the commercials that pay for things and we’ll be right back after this short break. Jordan: All right Nile. I think it’s time for another social media marketing moment. Do me a favor. Talk to me about key words in Linked In. Nile: Linked In is a very high authority site. In fact, most people say it’s the fourth highest site for authority that you could go to. Well, you’ve got your own personal web page on that and as everybody knows in web page strategies you want key words so that when people search those key words anywhere on the internet you’re found. Linked In, because of its high authority transfers all of that authority to you so if you take your profile, you key work optimize it, making sure you use key words that users are using to search for you. Not the ones you like. You’re going to get tremendous results. Jordan: Thanks Nile. For more tips just like that join us at linkedinfocus.com, sign up for more tips and tricks. You’ll be glad you did. Nile: Welcome back. And as you know I’m so excited that we have Bob Burg here, the coauthor of the Go-Giver and Bob, I’ve been waiting for this interview for so long because the book has meant so much to me and I know that you’ve got an expanded edition. Before we get too far into our last segment, what was the motivation about that expanded edition and what’s the expansion, what’s the impact? Bob: Sure. Once the book hit the 500000 mark in sales the publisher asked John and me if there was something that we wanted to do in order to celebrate that and to -- if there was any additional value we could put into the book and so forth and we thought about it and obviously with the story being a parable you can't change that. But we could add something at the end of the book that we felt would be of significant value to our readers. We had always heard and well, we had discovered that people were -- we knew businesses were using the book in their sales meetings, their leadership meetings and so forth and discussing certain ideas from the book. We certainly knew schools were doing this from colleges to high schools to -- and churches and other religious institutions. Book clubs were using it and discussing it so we thought well, why don’t we give them a discussion guide. So, at the end of the book we have a discussion guide at the back where they can utilize those discussion points in order to lead study on the book. We also have been asked so many questions throughout the years. Good questions. Just a lot of times the same questions that we figured if one person or if many people are asking probably a whole lot of people who read the book ask and so we put a question and answer section in there as well. We also have a new foreword by -- well, it’s not a new foreword. It’s the only foreword by Arianna Huffington who’s the great entrepreneur and very nice person and the founder and publisher of the Huffington Post so all in all it -- we feel very happy, very excited about this expanded edition. Nile: I can't wait to get my hands on it. And when is that available by the way? Is it on shelves now? Bob: Yeah, yeah. It’s out. Nile: Oh, well, I’m slipping. That’s something I got to get the latest, greatest copy of. Bob: Thank you. I hope you enjoy it. Nile: I absolutely will. I know that there’s one line in the book that’s raised quite a few eyebrows and it’s where you and John wrote does it make money. It’s not a bad question. It’s a great question. It’s just a bad first question. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs especially when in the startup phase might disagree with you just a bit. They might say it’s the only question when it comes to business. Otherwise you’re just naïve. So, what do you two mean? Bob: Well, actually we would say that if you -- and I think history has born this out that if the first question you ask is will it make money you’re focused in the wrong direction and it’s less likely to make money because if it doesn’t provide value to others, if there’s not a market for this either an already made market or one that you can create and that’s always created by providing value, then the second part, the money part is moot. So, we sort of mean that in a -- on a couple of levels. One is just as we mentioned. First ask does it serve. And when we say does it serve that simply means is there a market for it or could there be. Do people want it? You can create the best widget in the world and you might be thinking oh, man this is fantastic. We’re going to make a lot of money with this. But if there’s no market for it you’re not making money from it. You basically are just investing in something fantastic that’s a hobby. On the other hand if you determine first if there is a market in other words does it serve, now you can say will it make money. Is there a way we can take this product or service that really does serve and market in such a way that there’s a lot of money to be earned from it. On a bit deeper level we say well, first ask if it serves because we always want to add value to people’s lives by the very nature of what we do. We want to find a way to add value to others. Back in the -- I think it was the 1950s a young MIT student by the name of Amar _____47:11 went into a radio shack store and bought a pair of headphones and -- or speakers. Excuse me. Not headphones. Speakers. And he was very, very disappointed by the sound quality and he felt this is something that consumers should not have to have. And so he basically devoted his life to making great speakers, right, and creating great sound quality. We all are familiar with _____47:41 speakers. And he became a billionaire because he first asked does it serve, will it serve, how will it serve others. Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m sure he deposited every single one of those checks and he should. He earned them. But his focus was not on the money. His focus was on providing value. His focus was on does it serve. Then it was will it make money. Nile: Yeah, and I love that story. It’s a great one because obviously he didn’t like it and he knew if he didn’t a lot of other people didn’t either and it starts out. Throughout the book -- in fact, I’d say the book is really about mentorship so what do you think is the best way to find a mentor and perhaps most importantly what should an up and comer not do when trying to find one? Bob: Oh, that’s a great question. Both questions are excellent. What I would suggest not doing is approaching someone and simply asking them to be your mentor. I mean, you could admire someone and you can study that person and then you approach that person and say hey, will you be my mentor. And basically, when there’s no relationship there what you’re basically asking this person is hey, would you share your 40 or 50 years of experience with me and just let me know everything it’s taken for you to be successful even though we don’t even know each other. And so typically that’s not going to work. What I would suggest is when there’s someone whose work you admire is to contact that person and first study their stuff. If they’re an author or whatever they do, read their books. What have you. Watch their videos. Or read the articles they’ve written. Just learn about what they’ve done first so you’re not asking questions that you should know the answer to already because you don’t want to waste their time. But you can ask. You can let them know that you admire their work, that you’re studying to or that you’re looking to so and so and if it wouldn’t be inappropriate may I ask you one or two very specific questions. Boom. So, now what you’ve done is you’ve communicated in a way that says to them hey, I honor your time, I respect you and your time, I’m not just looking to waste your time and want something for nothing, that sort of thing. Now, once they do and if they do answer your questions whether it’s letting you take them to lunch or just a cup of coffee or answering a couple of questions on email or over the phone, make sure you send them a hand written note afterwards thanking them. Just a short note thanking them, letting them know you’ll take action on their ideas and so forth. You can report back to them. You can determine or discover what their favorite charity is and make a small donation in their name. that will get back to them and basically again what you’re letting them know is even though I certainly am not in the position to add the kind of value to your life as you are to mine I want to let you know I’m not taking it for granted and I’m looking to add value to you in some way. You can add -- if you’re close enough geographically you can ask to drive them around, be their chauffer and so forth. That way you can be around them and maybe ask them some questions. I mean, there are all sorts of ways that may not apply to some people and will apply to others but the point is this. A mentor/protégé relationship is just that. It’s a relationship. And it usually takes time to develop. It’s much less likely to happen when you come right out and ask a person who doesn’t know you will you be my mentor. It’s more likely to happen when you build a relationship always looking for ways to express gratitude and add value to that person’s life. Nile: I love that answer because it reminded me of what you said as you went through the laws. Breathing is an in and out thing and so you get somebody that’s giving you value as a mentor, as a protégé you’re able to give value back to them. It might be at a different level but they’re recognizing the value that you’re giving. And I know we’ve got just a couple of minutes left and before I get through the final interview I’m going to ask one question but I also want to be able to ask and save some time if people want to know more, how they could get in touch and some other things you’re doing because I know you do a whole lot more than just write books so here’s the question. Are there misconceptions about being a Go-Giver? I mean, the name itself almost implies that you give constantly. Can you be taken advantage of that way? For example, does a Go-Giver tell people no, I don’t want to do that? Bob: Well, okay. So, these are great questions and it -- and there are misconception, misperceptions about what being a Go-Giver means and I think that happens when people see the tittle of the book or they hear about the title from someone and they haven’t read the book. Naturally the mind goes to oh, the Go-Giver. They’re just giving themselves away, right? Or they’re -- they don’t care about making a profit or -- and of course none of that is true. As a Go-Giver you don’t -- you give value constantly, certainly. But you don’t give yourself away. In fact, Go-Givers tend to make a much larger profit than most others because a Go-Giver sells on high value rather than low price. They know that when you sell on low price you’re a commodity. When you sell on value, you’re a resource. So, typically a Go-Giver makes more money and they have a higher profit. Of course, their focus is on the other person. Do they say no? Yeah. Go-Givers need to say no a lot. Just like we talked about at the beginning of this -- at the -- of the show. Go-Givers are typically very successful so they’re typically very busy and if you were to say yes to everyone and everything you wouldn’t -- you really wouldn’t have the time to say yes to those and to that which you should say yes to. But what a Go-Giver would do is they would say no in such a way that honors the other person. Nile: Again, I appreciate that and I appreciate you being a giver that decided to give so much value to all of our listeners tonight. Bob: Oh, thank you. Nile: But one of the things that I’d really like to ask though -- you do a whole lot more. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about what you do and if they’re interested in finding more how do they get in touch? Bob: Well, the easiest way to get in touch is just to visit burg B-U-R-G.com and as you know I speak at a lot of corporate and organizational sales and leadership conferences. We also have a Go-Giver certified speaker program where we actually train people how to become a professional speaker and deliver the Go-Giver message as well as my other intellectual properties that I’ve developed over the last 27, 28 years or so and how to actually market themselves as a speaker and they can get all that information as well as information on the book, the Go-Giver by visiting www.burg B-U-R-G.com. Nile: And we’ll make sure that all of those links are one the Social Media Business Hour page so as always we encourage you to download our episodes on iTunes. Subscribe there. That way you get all the episodes delivered right to you. But we have show notes and links and all of that on the socialmediabusinesshour.com. This is episode 132 just to make it real easy. If we were one more episode in we would be exactly a 100 episodes from our first interview that we did Bob. That’s sort of amazing. Bob: Wow. Nile: Yeah, I agree. Well, listen, to all of you and especially you Bob, I want to thank you for joining us on the Social Media Business Hour. To our listeners I hope you learned a few new ideas or concepts. Maybe you were just reminded of a few things you already know but you haven’t been doing to improve or grow your business. You know that my desire is that you take just one of the things that you learned or were reminded of today and you apply it to your life or business this week. We know that a small change will make a big difference and I’m committed to bringing you at least one new idea each week that you can implement. So, go back and identify just one small change that you could make to your life or business and see what a big difference it will make for you. So, until next week, this is Nile Nickel. Now, go make it happen. Woman: Thanks for listening. Social Media Business Hour is sponsored by linkedinfocus.com. Be sure to get the latest social media business tips and tricks plus free tips on how you can use Linked In to help your business today. Visit socialmediabusinesshour.com. [/content_toggle] Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/burgbob Twitter: @bobburg Website: www.burg.com
节目名称：Becoming Jane节目类型：电影鉴赏PART 1. 剧情介绍Jennie: The year is 1795 and young Jane Austen is a feisty 20-year-old and emerging writer who dreams of doing what was then nearly unthinkable - marrying for love.Bob: It may be very common to marry for love in nowadays, but it is precious and undoable at that times. In fact, her parents are searching for a wealthy, well-appointed husband to assure their daughter&`&s future social standing. They are eyeing Mr. Wisley, nephew to the very formidable, not to mention very rich, local aristocrat Lady Gresham, as a prospective match. Jewel: 这就相当于我们中国古代的包办婚姻。Jennie: 看来包办婚姻也是全球化的，globalization.Bob: 一般电影中的包办婚姻都是受反抗的，Jane 也如此。When Jane meets the roguish and decidedly non-aristocratic Tom Lefroy, sparks soon fly along with the sharp repartee. Jewel: At first his intellect and arrogance raise her anger – but later knock her head over heels. Now, the couple, whose flirtation flies in the face of the sense and sensibility of the age, is faced with a terrible dilemma. If they attempt to marry, they will risk everything that matters - family, friends and fortune.Jennie: Meanwhile, she turns down the affections of other men, including Mr Wisley, the nephew and heir of the wealthy Lady Gresham. Wisley proposes but Jane ultimately rejects him due to lack of affection.Bob: That's the plot and now let's enjoy a part of the movie.下面是我们的嘉宾Jewel精心挑选的两个片段PART 2. 片段讲解Jewel: 这一片段是Gresham夫人在得知自己的外甥向Jane求婚被拒后找到Jane谈话的一番场景。在这个片段中，声名显赫而且非常富有的Gresham 夫人说了这样一句话：Let us simply say my nephew's wishes are close to my heart, however extraordinary they may be. Do you know the meaning of the phrase close to someone's heart?Jennie:我们要知道的话干嘛还请你过来，还付车票钱？其实我明明知道你是走来的。Bob: 那我来讲好了我不用报销车票钱。(Sure!)Close to my heart 和它直译成中文的意思其实差不多，就是对某件事非常上心。让Jennie给大家造个句子吧。Jennie: 一般大家想要表达对某件事情很上心的时候可以用这个句子，I think this matter is close to my heart.Jewel: 大家表白的时候不要再说俗套的I love u了，要换成I want you to know that I will always carry you close to my heart.对了，我前两天看咱台发了条微博是我爱你的十种说法，具体内容欢迎关注VOE外语广播电台的官方新浪微博账号啊。Bob: Em，get~Jewel: 下面再普及一个高逼格的词汇，出现在Gresham夫人的另一句话当中。My nephew, Miss Austen, condescend far indeed in offering to the daughter of an obscure and impecunious clergyman.这句话中的condescend是屈尊的意思。Jennie: Right, it spells c o n d e s c e n d, condescend,那就让Bob来造个句子吧。Bob: 啊？！为什么这么看得起我把难词都留给我了？！这没个3秒钟还真想不出来！duang,想到啦~(bravo!)一般一般~We expect a love probably, sympathize with, these the precious emotion condescend to come.Jennie:今天我们的老周讲英语就到这里(Actually it's called The World Says.)类似的英语教学节目还请大家继续关注VOE外语广播电台。And there is a theme song we want to share with you. It's called sometimes when we touch. Please enjoy~插曲：sometimes when we touch(女声版)Jewel: Oh my God, this is amazing!Jennie: Ew, what's wrong with you?!Bob: There, there. And welcome back to Classic Films and just leave the psycho.Jennie: The next part is the part we all fancy. And we also dub the part.PART 3. 主旨分析Jennie: Being a Jane Austen fan I may be a bit biased. Overall I really enjoyed the film, although I am not sure if it is historically correct in regard to Miss Austen&`&s romantic life. Anne Hathaway gave an excellent portrayal of Austen, who in the film seemed more like a Miss Elizabeth Bennett; the main character of her book Pride and Prejudice, a book she writes throughout the movie. James McAvoy fits the role of Tom Lefroy brilliantly, giving a roguish charm and depth to the character. James Cromwell and Julie Walters portray Austen&`&s parents with a Bennett air, being in a money problem and wishing their daughter to marry a wealthy man. Maggie Smith gives great depth to Lady Gresham, a wealthy women living near them who is looking for a wife for her nephew, who is to inherit her estate. The script is well written and has a good, if not average, romantic story line with moments of humor.Bob: From a filmmakers point of view the most appealing aspect of the film is its artistic direction and cinematography. there is a wide range of angles and transitions used throughout the film, as well as inventive setting of cameras and lighting. The area of Ireland that the film was shot in is magnificent and beautiful and emerges the viewer into the world of Jane Austen.Jewel: Actually I don't know if you guys have the same feelings with me. This film seemed to be a parallel of 2005&`&s Pride and Prejudice, starring Keira Knightley and Matthew MacFadyen initially. I would recommend this film to Jane Austen fans and romantics alike, possibly even to those who do not care for 18th century English life. Then I think the film transport the audience to another time when the main form of transportation was carriage and horses, and women were expected of no more than to marry and care for the household and children. Add a dash of romance, a love triangle and a cast of excellent ensemble characters and Becoming Jane is born. It is a inspiring film that gives us insight to the woman who was Jane Austen.接下来是我们为大家带来的配音节目，付出了很多的心血。Hope you'll like it.PART 4. 配音节目结束语节目监制：刘子含播音：周 熠 高佳宁 杨理程编辑：杨理程 高佳宁 周 熠 制作：刘子含
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