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I sat down with scholar, Nilesh Kumar to explore how Korean cinema has reflected shifting notions of gender, identity, and social structure across decades. From the angry men of the Korean New Wave to the defiant heroines of modern streaming hits, this conversation examines how bodies on screen become battlegrounds for power, memory, and desire. We begin by talking about how technology defines Park Chan-wook's groundbreaking movie Oldboy, as well as its absence of allegory, signaling the start of post-modern Korean cinema. Then, we explore three main themes in Korean cinema across time: Masculinity, femininity, and queer representation. The first section sees us discuss Chilsu and Mansu (1988), Peppermint Candy (1999), A Single Spark (1995), Whale Hunting (1984), Burning (2018), and Parasite (2019). We then turn our attention to Hostess Cinema (1974-1982), Yeong-ja's Heydays (1975), Right Then, Wrong Now (2015), Ballerina (2023), Han Gong Ju (2013), and My Sassy Girl (2001). Finally, we look at King and the Clown (2005), Moonlit Winter (2019), Mine (2021), The Handmaiden (2016) as well as the importance of Seo Dong-jin and Paul B. Preciado. I was particularly impressed by how Nilesh put each section in context, describing the importance of the socio-economic and political conditions of the time. Nilesh Kumar is from England, of Gujarati-Indian background, and is based in South Korea. He is a Film Curator and co-founder of the Seoul-based underground-movable cinema, STEAK FILM and the sexuality themed, STEAK CINEMA. His topics of writing have included contemporary queer South Korean culture, South Korean ‘hostess' cinema (1974-82), and 6th Generation Chinese Cinema. Selected work: https://novasiagsis.com/author/nileshp/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nilesh5739/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/shanti.love.90 David A. Tizzard has a PhD in Korean Studies and lectures at Seoul Women's University and Hanyang University. He writes a weekly column in the Korea Times, is a social-cultural commentator, and a musician who has lived in Korea for nearly two decades. He can be reached at datizzard@swu.ac.kr. Watch this video next: https://youtu.be/L9azQpXZ2Rc Subscribe to the channel: @DavidTizzard/videos Thanks to Patreon members: Hee Ji Jacobs, Bhavya, Roxanne Murrell Join Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/user?u=62047873 Discussion Outline 0:00 Oldboy and Allegory 18:40 Angry Men in Korean New Wave Cinema 44:42 Hostess Cinema and Female Representation 1:12:25 My Sassy Girl (엽기적인 그녀) 1:37:30 The Queers are Here 2:33:46 Recommendations Music by Jocelyn Clark: https://youtu.be/IWVqqXT3TfY?si=wq2mcIIarE6JTqFS Connect with us: ▶ Get in touch: datizzard@swu.ac.kr ▶ David's Insta: https://www.instagram.com/datizzard/ ▶ KD Insta: https://www.instagram.com/koreadeconstructed/ Questions or Topic Suggestions: Write in the Comments Below #koreadeconstructed #davidtizzard Korea Deconstructed by David Tizzard ▶ Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/kr/podcast/korea-deconstructed/id1587269128 ▶Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5zdXkG0aAAHnDwOvd0jXEE ▶ Listen on podcasts: https://koreadeconstructed.libsyn.com 

Have you ever wondered how the savviest Amazon sellers pinpoint products that skyrocket to success? Join us as we navigate the complex landscape of Amazon's seller tools with insights from our expert guest, Yi Zhen from Amazon Singapore, who unpacks the secrets of the Product Opportunity Explorer, Brand Analytics, and more. We tackle the nuts and bolts of metrics that matter—from sponsored ad percentages to the telling average age of selling partners—all to equip you with a map for mastering sales trends and strategic inventory decisions.  Unboxing the art of personalized promotions, this episode reveals how a deep dive into customer loyalty analytics can revolutionize your sales approach. We share real-life tales and tactics for waking up those hibernating buyers and how vital understanding customer lifetime value can be to your growth. From decoding top search terms to smart segmentation targeting, this is an arsenal of strategies you won't want to miss. Lastly, we journey with Helium 10 to find niche markets where the quirky, like coffin-shaped cat trees, become a good product opportunity. Discover how leveraging data from Amazon and Helium 10 can lead to unexpected product triumphs, and why sometimes, the more peculiar the product, the more passionate the customer base. Our candid conversation wraps with a heartfelt thanks to our guest and a teaser of what's on the horizon for Amazon sellers. Tune in to get ahead of the game and keep your finger on the pulse of Amazon market opportunities. In episode 526 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley and Yi discuss: 00:00 - Analyzing Product Opportunities and Customer Trends 03:51 - Understanding the Product Opportunity Explorer 12:16 - Product Returns and Display Color Analysis 15:43 - Tailored Promotions and Customer Loyalty Analytics 17:19 - Understanding Customer Loyalty Analytics 21:43 - Discover Niche Markets With Helium 10 21:55 - Analyze Product Opportunity With ASINs 29:21 - Analyzing Consumer Behavior for Product Development ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On Youtube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: And today we have invited you back onto the show the second half of the episode. I couldn't cut it off because there's just too much amazing stuff that we're going over. So let's go ahead and get you the second part of this interview and let's learn all there is to know about product opportunity Explorer, brand analytics, customer loyalty dashboard. We're going to talk about a whole bunch of cool stuff. Here we go. Did you know that Amazon sometimes loses or damages some of your inventory? Usually they reimburse you for this, but sometimes they might miss things. That's where refund Genie comes in. What Helium 10 refund Genie does is we go check out your reports and see if Amazon owes you any money, and then we give you the reports that you need to submit to Amazon so that you can get your money back. If you haven't run this, you can have hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars that Amazon might owe you, especially if you've never used this before and you sell a lot on Amazon. So to find out more information, go to h10.me forward slash refund Genie. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the series tellers podcast by Helium 10. I'm your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show. That's a completely BS free, unscripted and unrehearsed organic conversation about serious strategies for serious sellers of any level in the e-commerce world. What else, so what else we have?   Yi: here. Okay, I will just move on to the other tabs, because each tab will have different interesting insights for us to know.   Bradley Sutton: So this one speaking of insights, I just clicked on insights.   Yi: That's right. So over here you'll be able to know wow, I mean you'll be able to see the different matrix for instance, how many percent of the products are using sponsored product top five products. How many click share are they taking out?   Bradley Sutton: At one glance, you're a good saleswoman, by the way, really Kind of like me. She's like she does this every day, but she's like, wow, like this never ceases to amaze me, Like this is so amazing. That's like you're like me and Helium 10, like look at this Helium 10 thing, guys. Wow. Like oh, my goodness, like I'm speechless. I'm just like, yeah, I love it. I love the genuine. This is a wow thing because this is I'm seeing here the 90% of click, like how many percent of people are using sponsored products? How many percent is prime, you know, and it's like 100% right. But then imagine if you guys found a niche where it's like 50% only are using prime. Wow, that would be a real wow. Right there, exactly.   Yi: Exactly. Yeah, I think the reason why I said wow is because I saw that the percentage of products using sponsored products is above 90%, which is pretty high compared to many other niche I've done research over. Usually, I think the average I've seen so far is between 80 to 90%. This is like 90 to 98%, so it's pretty high. I would say it's really competitive, which is why I guess, when you see in the search term, tap earlier on, the search conversion rate is so low, because I think way too many people are running advertising on this. It might be a bit expensive. Yeah, correct, correct, this might. It's a consideration point.   Bradley Sutton: I'm not sure if you can give this information, but what does it mean here when it says number of successful launches, like what determines successful launch?   Yi: I think actually, if you hover your mouse over the, over the matrix, you actually tell you. It means the number of new launch. It's been in launches in the past 180 years. Wow, it's in there, right there. We've annualized it. Didn't say that before.   Bradley Sutton: Like I was like in the dark. This was like six months ago.   Yi: Since I've looked at this, I didn't even notice that.   Bradley Sutton: Yes, Number of new launches with an annualized revenue amount of over $50,000 in the past 30 days. All right, yes.   Yi: I think we are just being more transparent, especially because many sellers are telling us they don't really understand this matrix. Can you explain this better, this product opportunity explorer? I think throughout the entire year I've seen so much changes and in fact it's for the better, yeah.   Bradley Sutton: All right, cool. So I see this. By the way, for the people not watching this, I see there's columns for today, columns for 90 days ago, 360 days ago. Oh, my goodness, the one thing that tells me to stay far, far away. Not stay far away from this niche, but average selling partner age almost 10 years. So, like these are like experienced sellers in this niche and if you're a brand new seller, you might not want to go against people with 10 years of selling under their belt. So there's another piece of interesting information here. Pretty cool, all right. Next one here is or is there anything else on this page? No, I think we can move on to trends.   Yi: Okay, yeah, I think what helps over in the trends page firstly is to identify the seasonality of the product and also when you should enter to sell. So firstly for this product, as you know, shower curtains typically is something usually people will buy across the year. Right, there shouldn't be much pigs, but from what I see over here I think there's a pig in July. Probably is because of Prime Day. Prime Day yeah probably is because of Prime Day, otherwise it's quite flat throughout. So I think, regardless of where you, when you launch, I think it's fine. But just take note, maybe when you do your inventory planning or when you try to you know purchase your product from manufacturer, maybe before Prime Day you might want to manufacture more, right? So it helps you to do your inventory planning for that.   Bradley Sutton: Also. I'm just looking at this and the number of products goes down. So that could mean one of two things. It could mean that more products are going out of stock, like maybe this people in this niche are not keeping their product in stock come Christmas time and they're running out, or like the stronger listings are getting more powerful because now it takes less products to make up the 90 percent. But either way, there's a clear trend here where, from September where it was about you know 90 products that make up this niche, and then now in November and December it's down to 65. So that's a pretty significant drop there, pretty cool stuff.   Yi: Yeah yeah. There are also many other matrix that you can just toggle into to just quickly see, like how this niche doing. For instance, you can also look at the search conversion rate, but I just quickly see and it's pretty stagnant throughout. In fact, I think it seems like it's increasing towards like slightly.   Bradley Sutton: Oh, I didn't even know that I could hit this button and it shows me the graph history. Man, there's so much new stuff in here. I mean I swear. I looked at this like a few months ago I didn't know I could do all this stuff. Pretty cool, yes.   Yi: Yes, so you can actually see, the search conversion rate seems to be increasing slightly, but yet the product count is decreasing. Maybe it's because, like, more products are stopping to sell or it's going out of stock, like you mentioned. So the remaining products are actually doing much better in terms of like search conversion.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, yeah, correct, correct Okay.   Yi: Cool, okay. The next one would be purchase drivers. This is actually something new, and I noticed that not many sellers have access to this beta page, so for you that you are able to see this, oh.   Bradley Sutton: I'm special.   Yi: Yeah, you're special, yeah, so over here it's something new that I think it got released in October, so it's really really very recent. It will tell you what are the different features. They are leading to a successful sale or like a purchase by customer Right. So what are the important features I would say in this case? Then you could see the color white or it has to have curtain hook or the team is boho. Typically are the top three positive feature for this shower curtain. So maybe it's something you need to take note of when you come out with different variations for your shower curtain when you want to start selling it.   Bradley Sutton: I'm going to read the little tool tip here where it explains what does positive drivers mean. It says here, because I didn't know, I was like what the heck am I looking at here? It says feature specific to this niche that positively impact the number of units sold by products within it. The impact is calculated by comparing the estimated sales of the products with that feature against the average units sold by all products in the niche. Okay, and then I'm assuming negative just means the opposite.   Yi: It means the opposite here.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right, interesting. So this means people do not like the stripe pattern Exactly and they don't like that fabric one because it's not waterproof, I guess Correct, correct.   Yi: So let's say if you can come out with something water resistant. Maybe you have a chance and maybe your advertising may not have to be that expensive. If they are not much similar selections, they are water resistant.   Bradley Sutton: Anything else on this page, or can I go to the next one?   Yi: The next one.   Bradley Sutton: All right, customer review insights. So this is you know. We looked at the review insights based on like an ASIN. This is kind of just like based on the all the products in the niche right.   Yi: Correct. Correct, and I also briefly talk about it for, like the particular ASIN just now, just that what you see over here is on the niche level. So you know, at the aggregated level for shower curtains, what are typical things that are wanted or not wanted by customers, and this is something I would say for you to work on, especially on the negative reviews for you to innovate your product in order to differentiate from existing products that are currently selling. Right, for instance, you see, there might be a seller selling the shower curtain a cloth shower curtain since 2014. But, let's say, if you're able to come out with a water resistant curtain which people like you can even like, win over some of the click share.   Bradley Sutton: Yes, so water resistant is one. I'm looking here and I clicked on the negative and I see a lot of people have issue with the magnet. The magnet is not strong. I know exactly what they're talking about. I bought one of these shower curtain. I don't know if it's this one, but but it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't work very, very good. Maybe I'm part of this percentage in this niche of these negative mentions here.   Yi: Okay, yeah, yeah, I think people also talk about the thickness of the product. So, yeah, there's something very immediate. In fact, the mentions of thickness is 18%, which is significantly higher compared to the other topics, like magnetic strength, because magnetic strength, even though it's second, it's only 5%. So, in fact, something that you immediately need to work on will be the thickness of the shower curtain.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, I see that right here.   Yi: Yeah.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, and then here at the bottom it says topic impact on the star rating. So yeah, the thickness is the number one, like everything else. Is that like two? Or point zero, point zero, two, but the thickness at 0.2, so like 10 times as much. So that's a easy way to see what people are complaining about.   Yi: Correct, correct. So I mean looking at the product itself, even though we see like the product might be quite competitive in state in terms of like the sponsored products percentage, in terms of search conversion. But actually there might still be opportunities because people are quite strong about the negative review they are talking about. That means there are products on Amazon.com. They are not able to satisfy people that are complaining about existing product within this niche. So in this case, if you are able to come out with something different, position yourself differently, there might still be opportunities for you to go in. Yeah, even though there are multiple Asians available already.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, Alright, we're ready to go to the next tab.   Yi: Yeah, the returns.   Bradley Sutton: Let's see, oh return. There's another one of the new ones, because there's beta here.   Yi: Correct, correct. This is something new. I think it was announced in Amazon Accelerate this year, which I think you are quite lucky.   Bradley Sutton: Do you see my shirt on Word today? Look.   Yi: I bet you don't even have this sweater here. I don't have it.   Bradley Sutton: I was a speaker at Amazon Accelerate so I feel special. I got to have an Amazon Accelerate sweater. That's my word.   Yi: Yeah, it's nice, it's nice.   Bradley Sutton: Alright. So I'm looking at this literally my first time looking at this because I haven't looked at this and I see a lot of the same data points here as far as search volume and things like that, at the very top. But if I scroll down here under product returns insights, it gives me the percentage of mentions of certain things like. The number one thing was the display colors. There's that thickness right there, 8%. The material, the value for money. So yeah, that's interesting how people were giving bad reviews for the thickness the most, but as far as why they returned it, it looks like they didn't like the colors.   Yi: They feel like it wasn't accurate, right? I think they mentioned the green didn't look like what it was as advertised. So the product listing images also plays a very important part in this, as well as part of the returns, which is why we always emphasize on coming out with a good listing, as accurate as possible. Give sellers or customers, in fact, even more information to help them make decisions on whether they want this product and help them understand this product, so that you'll reduce possibility of returns. So yeah, in this case, display colors really like a huge issue.   Bradley Sutton: All right, so tons of new stuff here in Product Opportunity Explorer. Now, one thing I kind of referenced was there are some familiar data points with the top clicked and stuff that we might have been used to from years ago in brand analytics, but it is a little bit different brand analytics. So then, how would a seller use Product Opportunity Explorer with Amazon brand analytics?   Yi: Yeah, I would say it's more of how do you use brand analytics together like some initial insights of what you should sell. Then Opportunity Explorer is always a tool for you to look more in-depth into and see how can you further validate the product selection. So I think that I would probably share a few useful cases of how people can use brand analytics in order to shortlist a couple of ideas from there. But just something to note brand analytics is only available for sellers and wrote into brand registry, so, beyond just professional selling account, they need to have an eligible trademark that is enrolled into brand registry to access brand analytics.   Bradley Sutton: Cool, yeah. So Product Opportunity Explorer guys, remember it's available for everybody, but brand analytics is only available to brand registered sellers. So hopefully most of you guys are brand registered and if so, go ahead and click over to brand analytics and there's a whole bunch of new stuff here. Are we going to talk about the CLA? This is the CLA. As soon as I get in brand analytics, it goes directly to the CLA Customer Loyalty Analytics. Oh my goodness, look at all of this new stuff here.   Yi: Yes, yes, this is something that I wanted to introduce, actually, because it's something that's pretty new, also, I think, introduced around in October. So over here, you'll be able to understand what are, like, the demographics of the people that are buying your products. Right Then, from here, actually, what we'll recommend for sellers to do is to tie it up with brand tailored promotions in order to run specific discounts or promotions that will be able to help you to retarget a particular segment that you want to grow further. Yeah, have you tried using brand tailored promotions?   Bradley Sutton: Yes, I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, like I've done in some of my accounts the abandoned cart and some other different markets here where I was able to get some sales that I probably wouldn't have gotten without that correct. Now this here is looking at one of my. I'm seeing my coffin shelf brand here. I see I have an option of weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly. And wow the hibernating customers what's a hibernating customer?   Yi: Basically people who haven't, I guess, purchased in a long while. So, which is why it's very important for you to look into these analytics before you actually do your brand tailored promotions. Because when brand tailored promotions first launch, sellers always ask us which segment should I target? They don't really know right. But over here, after looking at our analytics, you'll be able to know which segment you have the most customers in, so that you'll be able to re-target them or re-activate that particular segment. For instance, your hibernating customers is 600 plus. Maybe you might want to run a promotion that target sellers or customers that haven't been purchasing your product for a while. Maybe you want to do something special about that.   Bradley Sutton: And there's a button right here that I can do that on the right side. I'm assuming this kind of ties directly to the brand tailored promotions. Right, this create promotion button. Okay, correct.   Yi: In fact, over here, if you go to the top left corner, there is a button where you can click into the segment view. So the thing about customer loyalty analytics ideally it's for sellers that have been selling on Amazon for at least a year, I would say so that there will be sufficient data for you to make decisions on Of course, you need to have enough customers for you to re-target right. In this case, over here under the segment view, you'll be able to see a few metrics, including predictive customer lifetime value, right. So usually, if there's sufficient data, it will roughly tell you what is customer spending this year and what they are predicted to sell, to buy next year as well, for, like your top tier customer. So this is what's very important for you to know, so that maybe you'll be able to Kind of like retarget them, either through promotions or actively through the post that you have, in order to engage with them.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, yeah, see my repeat customers average repeat purchase interval.   Yi: Very interesting stuff if multiple people are like Purchasing from you, if you're selling like commodities, if maybe you can consider doing subscribe and save, for instance. So it really depends on what segment you have so that you'll be able to leverage on, like the different programs or different promotions that you have, in order to retarget this group of customers.   Bradley Sutton: This wasn't even. Was this even in your presentation in Singapore?   Yi: No, it isn't, yeah, because this wasn't even out a couple months ago. Okay, yeah, that's what I thought.   Bradley Sutton: I know my memory is bad, but I didn't know was that bad? Okay, good, I'm glad. I'm glad it's not that I forgot about it. All right, cool, anything more in the CLA.   Yi: Nothing much to highlight additionally here? Yeah, because after all, is still a very new tool. I guess, at a very start for sellers, when you review this dashboard is to see is to understand more about the Demographics of like customers that are purchasing, how valuable they are. If not, is there are some immediate actions that you can take, for instance, using brand tailored promotions in order to actively engage with them first.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, yeah, I haven't done that. In a few weeks I might be. I might need to look at my numbers here and run, run some more.   Yi: Yeah, let me know how it works for you.   Bradley Sutton: Oh, what's the next hour? Gonna switch to Marketplace.   Yi: Amazon brand analytics, but I just I'll be talking about maybe three use cases on the different reports that you'll be able to use in order to shortlist the kind of products that you want to Investigate further or explore further using OX.   Bradley Sutton: All right, so that's it for the customer loyalty analytics. What's next? What should I? What should I click on? Yes, you're, you're, I'm the driver and you're the navigator. You got to tell me where to go next.   Yi: Okay, okay, right now We'll still stay in Amazon brand analytics, but the next thing that you need to click on is the top search terms report. I think it's under the Correct.   Bradley Sutton: I see it's under search analytics and go to top search terms correct. All right excellent.   Yi: So over here.   Bradley Sutton: This is the one that I.   Yi: Often use.   Bradley Sutton: I love like three years ago when this came out. This is the greatest thing in the history of mankind, I think yeah, but this is cool, and now it's like kind of crazy because it's like the oldest thing now. Now Everybody's talking about the OX and SQP, but still I think this has some Definitely has some value, yes, yes.   Yi: So over here, what I think is actually useful is let's say, if you don't really know, you know what kind of products that you want to sell, but then, or maybe you already have like an idea of like the keywords of like that item that you want to sell. Maybe, to put it better, in a better way, let's say if you have a rough idea, yeah, if you have a rough idea of what you want to sell by I'm not sure how to Validate the selection or what niche is it in actually right, so you'll be able to use the top search term report I would say keen the keywords in the search bar over there. I'm gonna put coffin because that's my, that's my main.   Bradley Sutton: My main thing here.   Yi: Correct.   Bradley Sutton: And here we go.   Yi: Okay, so over here, immediately, you'll be able to see what I like, for instance, the top click brand and top a, since over here, so immediately, you'll be able to know what are the similar a, since you can benchmark yourself against right. But how do you work backwards in order to find out what are the niche for this product, in order to do more research? Because, after all, within this analytics report, the Data available is still limited to a certain extent. So what I would advise sellers to do over here Is to copy the ASIN. For instance, we can take the top ASIN. Take this coffin show and copy that we can put it back into opportunity, explorer and search for this product Correct. So over here You'll be able to see your target ASIN. So likewise, like what we have did Previously, you'll be able to see, like customer review insights while like the click counts etc for this ASIN. But I think what's more interesting would be if you can go to the previous page, you can click into niche view, which is beside ASIN view, can you see at the left side You'll be able to see which niche this product is Situated in and in fact, for some ASINs. Sometimes it might be present in multiple niche. So over there you'll be able to work. Go backwards then after that to do your research, for on the niche level, yeah.   Bradley Sutton: I see it right here. All right, so for those just listening, you haven't seen what I was in. I took the ace in, put it back to product opportunity explorer and then looked into the ace in view and also the niche view. Now You've been showing me stuff this whole time. Let me show you something you've never seen but that we just launched in Helium 10. This. This you might think is pretty cool. So we took brand analytics now, because this is available in the API, and now we have this kind of like database here Inside of black box and again, just like with brand analytics, you can only get this. You know, Helium 10 is checking your account if you have brand registry, and if you don't have brand registry, we can't show you this information because we always play by Amazon's rules, and which is a Reasonable rule. So let me show you something I literally found today. This was my first time. I think I actually did a video on this and it was a product that I couldn't believe existed. But what I did, let me see if I can remember. I think I did the same thing where I typed in coffin here and, and then I was like, alright, show me a keyword that has, and now it's easy. The cool thing about this is taking like Helium 10 data At the same time as as Amazon data. So I'm like hey, show me something that has at least I think I said 500 search volume where at least two items had greater than 30% Click.   Yi: Share you see like right, this is something you can't.   Bradley Sutton: I mean, you could download this, of course, in In brand analytics and I'm not doing anything new other than the search form. This is all stuff that anybody can just download, but I'm just doing it right here in this dashboard. And then let me I'm not sure if this is the exact thing I typed. Let's just take a look, I'll know when it comes up and I hit apply, there, it is right here. Look at this Cat tree. And I'm like you've got to be kidding me. What the heck is this 3,200 search volume? I, you know, I thought I knew everything about coffins, right, and then so I actually click this again. I got this from brand analytics and then you I know you guys are a lot of you guys can't see what I'm looking at. This is insane, guys. There is these cat trees, oh, and the one that is out of stock. It's out of stock already. There is one that's a hundred and forty dollars and it's sold like 800 units or something. Here's one that's a 100 and it's a hundred and forty dollars. It's crazy. People are buying cat-shaped trees.   Bradley Sutton: Let me see if, if that product is still here, that was number one. Where is it? This one here? It is right here. This is the number one selling one. This is cool, guys. It doesn't show up in Amazon search anymore. That's why I didn't come up, but because it's in Brand Analytics, which is another good thing about Brand Analytics. By the way, I bet you I could find this right here in what we just did. Let me coffin cat. There. It is right here. So, you see, I would have found this even if I was in Brand Analytics. There it is coffin cat tree. But it takes me right to this number one click one, which is now out of stock because it was being bought too much. People were selling this for ridiculous amount of money and they sold almost 1,000 units of this. But I discovered a completely new niche thanks to Brand Analytics and this new Helium 10 tool that incorporates Brand Analytics. So yeah, guys, brand Analytics is still very valuable. You can get some really cool ideas. Do you have any pets?   Yi: cats or dogs or anything I don't have a dog or cat, but my boyfriend do have a Pomeranian.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, now would he make a coffin shaped bed? Like isn't that kind of morbid? Why would you do that for your pet? Like I don't understand pet owners, but guess what guys? There's 1,000 people a month who want a coffin shaped toy or a bed for their cat to sleep in. I worry about those people, but I'll gladly take their $140. $140 is a really, really good price point. I'm quite sure the person's margin must be great, Considering.   Yi: I mean, there are many other sellers selling at much cheaper price, but people still buy the $140. There must be something great about it right, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great, it's great, but my boyfriend's dog just lies on the towel. That's all we wanted to buy a bed, but it doesn't want it, that's normal.   Bradley Sutton: see, that's normal. Putting it in a coffin shaped towel, that's not normal.   Yi: Oh yeah, okay, anyways, anyways.   Bradley Sutton: So I was. We were in. Let me go back to where we were. We were looking at the search terms. You were talking about the cool use of this. Anything left on this search term page or should I go somewhere else now?   Yi: Now we'll move on to the next one, which is under the brand analytics as well, is the consumer behavior analytics.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, Okay, do I just click it, or do I click one of these three sub-options here, or you can click into the market but size analysis. Market MBA, so that normally stands for like a master of business something or other, like a degree that I don't have, but here it means market basket analysis. Correct, correct.   Yi: What's useful?   Bradley Sutton: And here's all my products. This is my Project X products. Right here I can see.   Yi: So I think what's useful about this page is, let's say, if you already have an existing product that's already selling, right, you're wondering what kind of product can you extend to sell? What kind of new selections can you introduce? So right over here you'll be able to see what are people commonly buying together with your products and if this is actually something that is relevant, it might be something you want to consider selling as well. Let's say, if you want to brand yourself as, like, a coffin shelf or coffin team seller, maybe you can expand to sell even like those brush holders, et cetera, right?   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, my skull shape. For those who can't see this, I just clicked in the very first one and 4% of people are buying it with a skull makeup brush holder.   Yi: It must be like the person that's buying your coffin bookshelf, just like the coffin team, kind of like products. You know there are people who have like their whole house filled with Hello Kitty, so I'm not surprised there's someone who likes everything coffin related. So maybe this is something or like the brand, that brand positioning you want to go into, or like the team you want to get started with, so you do not need to sell, like you know, different kind of shelves. In fact, you can just go stick to coffin team products. Yeah, that's something that you can consider as well. So that's one way. Then the last way that I would like to just quickly introduce would be under the consumer behavior analytics as well, under demographics. So over here you'll be able to know at one glance who are actually purchasing your products, Like you know, the gender, income, education, the age of the people buying your products. So the way that you want to introduce new product, or like the type of product that you want to introduce to like the this customer segment that you have, it can be fully customized.   Bradley Sutton: There are three people who make $250,000 a year. Who is buying the coffin shelves? All right, so it's not just for cheap people. This is for the high class people they have high class kids. Yeah exactly.   Yi: So if you scroll to the left side, for instance, let me take a look at what is the age demographic? Oh, it's quite well spread out throughout, like 20s to 40s.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, that's actually surprising, maybe.   Yi: I'll consider them, maybe the office crowd, so you may want to launch something that is favorable for them. Maybe, you know, it can be like the coffin pen holder, which can also be used for the brushes, right? Maybe you can position it as like a pen holder, something like that. So we need to understand who are actually buying your product so that you'll be able to launch products that suit them, right? So this just roughly gives you an idea to help you. You know, have like initial sparks or something to get started with initially. Yeah, so it's at the idea stage. Yeah, so I think, just for the purpose of like product research, I think these are the three common ones that you can start using first. Then maybe next time I can share more.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah this is like way more than I have been using lately. I guess you use kind of like the traditional stuff, but now this shows me that I definitely need to be in here a little bit more looking at stuff. All right, so, wow, this was a lot of information. Now, pretty much everything that we went over today is available in those marketplaces and even more, actually, the OX is available in those six, seven marketplaces that she mentioned earlier. You know Europe, USA, Japan Brand Analytics is actually available a lot of the stuff in almost all of the marketplaces. But also, you know, like he works here in the Amazon, Singapore and you do some like you know, if anybody's in your region, you actually have some cool programs. But first of all, let's talk about what is your region? It's not just Singapore. Like, right, like, like what. What countries are you servicing the sellers?   Yi: So we are actually covering Southeast Asian sellers. There are from Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia and Cambodia, so any sellers that are coming from this country. Actually, we do provide free account management support To help them on board and start selling out Amazon.com. So I think many of the sellers May not know that we exist, but I just want to share that we are here beyond just the account management support. We do have many other educational resources available, for instance, seller university Live broadcast webinars so you can watch it anytime. We do have our monthly seller meetup and events yeah, every month, but this is only currently more for Singapore sellers. So if you are a Singapore listener, please drop by for our event and Do let me know. If you want to attend an event or do not know where is the registration page, let me know. We'll let you in. Yeah, so we do have many other pages, like our telegram community groups, as well as Facebook Pages as well, where we do share some practical tips from other existing seller on how to sell better. Yeah, and also we do share updates on like new products or any policy updates, etc. So just stay tuned. We do actually have a lot of different Pages available or have support that we can provide to Southeast Asian seller, so do reach out to us. If you are a new seller within this region, we'll be able to help you and then how can people do that?   Bradley Sutton: How can people reach out like where's what website should they go?   Yi: They can either go to sell.amazon.com.sg to Reach out to us, either through by attending our live webinar or signing up for our seller events. Alternatively, they could also hit us up via our Facebook page, which is the global selling Southeast Asia Facebook group, so they can also Reach out to the marketing team from there. Then they'll reach the seller with account managers like us. Then we'll be able to follow up accordingly to help them launch.   Bradley Sutton: Yeah and, by the way, guys, if anybody has doesn't have Helium 10, actually Amazon Singapore has special discounts that we don't give to anybody else because they help, you know, they help new sellers, you know, come and join. So, like, if you want to discount, like actually you can give you one that's probably better than the discount that I can give. So that's a. So make sure to go through Amazon Singapore, guys. They got the, they've got the hookups. And now I was talking to Anna in In China last week when I was in China and she's arranging the Potential Philippines.   Yi: Amazon conference.   Bradley Sutton: So I'll be hopefully going there and maybe March. There might be a smaller one in February, but I'm gonna probably go to the March. Any chance that you can go, that you can, should I? Should I put in a good word to Anna, like make sure, hey, we need a you over there talking about this?   Yi: kind of stuff, maybe. Maybe if for the March one you might see me there, then I'll bring you around for good food. I do know some nice.   Bradley Sutton: Yes, yes, yes, that's, I am. Um. I've only been to Philippines like four times, but I am half Filipino and I need to. I need to connect more to my roots, but I have a team out there. I'm definitely gonna be trying to go in in the middle of March, whenever this conference is, to look out for more information on there. Well you, thank you so much for joining us, and this has been an amazing year, I think, for Amazon and for brand and little lakes, for search group performance, for product opportunity Explorer. Well, it was great to have you on here. I didn't realize it was gonna last two episodes, but there's just too much good stuff here. So, thank you so much, and then maybe you know, next year or in 2025, we'll definitely want to bring you back, because probably by then there'll be so much new stuff that have been released that will need you to talk to us about it, and then, until then, maybe we'll see you in Philippines, or maybe next year, some in Singapore hope to see you again with to bring you more good stuff so that we can share with all your listeners Next time round.

The evenings are getting darker, and there's a spine-chilling tingle in the air, which can only mean one thing: it's Haunting Season!For their second weekly double-bill of original ghost stories, Martin and Eleanor step outside their comfort zones and tell Right Then, My Love, a twisted tale of old-aged terror, and The Blackberry Pickers, a Gothic romance where the sweetest fruit ferments into horror, all before a brief chat about their inspirations at the end.Learn more about The Three Ravens Podcast at www.threeravenspodcast.com and join our Patreon at www.patreon.com/threeravenspodcast. Get bonus content on Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Scripture For Today: Psalm 39:12 “Hear my prayer, Lord, listen to my cry for help; do not be deaf to my weeping. I dwell with you as a foreigner, a stranger, as all my ancestors were." Important Things About PrayerAs we have discussed before, the first and most important thing we need to learn about prayer is that we are to pray to the Father IN THE NAME of JESUS. Amen!  The second most important thing is found in Mark 11:24, as we have already read, but I'll do it again because it is so important:  “Therefore I say to YOU, whatsoever things YOU desire, when YOU pray, believe YOU receive them and YOU shall have them.” In John 16:23, Jesus taught, “And in THAT DAY, you shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, whatsoever you ask the Father for, IN MY NAME, HE will give it to YOU.” When you put those two verses together, and stand on them in faith, there is no devil in hell powerful enough to stop you from receiving what you are believing for. Amen. When you pray, BELIEVE that you receive your prayer as answered – RIGHT THEN. Even if you do not see or feel the results. After you say AMEN, you just praising God for answering YES and now you are waiting for the manifestation.  Faith comes between the “AMEN” and the “There it is!” Glory to God! Did you get that!  Let me say it again in case you missed it. TRUE FAITH, is what happens between the AMEN and the THERE IT IS. Glory to God! I just preached myself happy right there! Glory! When you pray, YOU must believe YOU have received your answer. You don't wait until AFTER you receive the manifestation. No, you believe as soon as you say AMEN. Amen? I keep going over this because it is so important. This is what faith is all about. True Bible Faith. Amen. Believing God and taking Him at His Word – before you actually see the answer. These truths will gradually dawn on you if you hear them enough. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Let me ask you this.  Are born again? Are your sins forgiven? Are you going to Heaven when you die on this earth? How do you know? Have you experienced dying and going to Heaven forever?  Then how do you know? In what are you putting the most important aspect of your Faith?  Do you simply believe that because you heard it preached before? Because it is in God's Word as a promise – in various scriptures – but let's just say because John 3:16 says so? Well, PRAISE GOD!  AMEN!  I'm in agreement with you! Amen! I'm not denying it at all. I'm standing in agreement. I'm believing the same thing the same way. Amen! But – why don't you believe for healing, finances or any other thing you are praying and believing for the same way? You believe you're saved simply because God's Word says so. Well, His Word says the same thing about “believing you receive” as well. Just believe the same thing the same way and you will see the same thing the same way. Glory to God! Let's Pray! Please subscribe to this podcast, leave us a quick 5 star review on Apple Podcasts to help us grow and be sure to visit our website for more information on our ministry: https://podcastersforchrist.com/ (https://podcastersforchrist.com). And while you are at the website, download the free resource I have for you… it is free and is called, “How to Start a Christian Podcast.” It will bless you – go and download it today. You can also WATCH these session on our Facebook Playlist at this link: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtKWeKtmv-BwgkquBTsSh-GznbmuUp_R2 (https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtKWeKtmv-BwgkquBTsSh-GznbmuUp_R2)

In this Hasty Treat, Scott and Wes talk about enums in JS — what they are, what they do, and how they work in JavaScript. LogRocket - Sponsor LogRocket lets you replay what users do on your site, helping you reproduce bugs and fix issues faster. It’s an exception tracker, a session re-player and a performance monitor. Get 14 days free at logrocket.com/syntax. Show Notes 03:11 - What are enums? A type restricting variables to one value from a predefined set of constants Direction = UP / DOWN / LEFT / RIGHT Role = ADMIN EDITOR AUTHOR VIEWER Day of the Week 05:12 - In GraphQL enum Role { ADMIN EDITOR AUTHOR VIEWER} Then 07:05 - In TypeScript First, declare the type: enum direction = { UP, DOWN, LEFT, RIGHT } Then when you defined your function, use that type type User { role: Role } or type User { role: [Role] } 08:49 - In JavaScript Not in JS yet There is a proposal in stage 1 https://github.com/rbuckton/proposal-enum And a babel plugin: https://www.npmjs.com/package/babel-plugin-const-enum Can use case/switch Can use Object or Map keys Links Syntax 287: Hasty Treat - Records and Tuples in JavaScript Tweet us your tasty treats! Scott’s Instagram LevelUpTutorials Instagram Wes’ Instagram Wes’ Twitter Wes’ Facebook Scott’s Twitter Make sure to include @SyntaxFM in your tweets

We've jist pit oot a load eh rubbish quality podcast, but this yin is aw fancy pants audio! Hows that ye ask? Cause the lockdoon is fuckin oor! Ya wee dancer ye! We're back in the studio in this PRE Episode, which bi the way, is EPISODE ZERO (Hence the PRE) eh.... SEASON FUCKIN TWA! Tae confuse hings, we dae say it's Episode wan oan the podcast, but that's cause that WIS the plan.. but in true Everyday Scottish fashin, that escalated fuckin quick! Aw hell broke loose and hings we hid tae go intae hidin' fur a wee while. Anyway, back tae whit's happenin oan this episode zero ... Aye, Rabs ooty the jail, he says he's no been in there, but ... aye fuckin RIGHT THEN!! Anywa, try no tae laugh challenge? whit the hell? That wis ah laugh, an dinnae get me started oan nae who wants tae win a quid! Am no a happy bunny we couldnae dae that this time, but it's back wi avengeance next time when wi change it up a bit jist tae fuck ye's oor when ye've spent ages preparin fur aw the questions.. Gerrit roon ye! GET THE MESSAGES IN FUR THE NIXT WAN, NO THE SHOAPIN THOUGH! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/everyday-scottish/message

Category: Actions | Similar Episodes: 014, 053, 079 | https://www.unconventionalselfcare.com | hello@unconventionalselfcare.com“Today was an unsubscribe day! I spent time looking at my email. Really looking at what was coming in and deciding whether it was something I valued enough to actually stop and read RIGHT THEN. Since I’m not really on social media — I try but can never be consistent — email is where my dopamine gets the most hits. It’s why I’m on a gazillion email lists. It’s why I have a graveyard of PDFs that I never actually read but downloaded anyway just to see what people have to say. I love reading interesting things but I started to do an audit and realized that there were only maybe 5 or 6 emails from strangers that I actually looked forward to. The rest were just filler. It felt like noise. If I never received another email I probably wouldn’t miss it. So I decided to raise my standards as an experiment.”P.S. You’re doing great!Support the show (http://bit.ly/SelfCareDiaryTipJar)

"Teamwork makes the dream work," John C. Maxwell. I'm Tara Jaraysi-Kenning and I'm a Tri-Cities influencer. Paul Casey: Get your priorities done near the beginning of your day. Research says that between 10 and 12 o'clock is typically the most creative time of the day for most people.   Raising the water level of leadership in the Tri-Cities of Eastern Washington, it's the Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast. Welcome to the TCI Podcast, where local leadership and self-leadership expert, Paul Casey interviews local CEOs, entrepreneurs, and non-profit executives to hear how they lead themselves and their teams, so we can all benefit from their wisdom and experience. Here's your host, Paul Casey of Growing Forward Services, coaching and equipping individuals and teams to spark breakthrough success. Paul Casey: Thank you for joining me for today's episode with Matt Molt. Matt is the lead pastor of New Vintage Church. He's my pastor, and so I brought him on for this special episode. Matt, and what I know about you, because I always ask the quirky question, is you love Star Wars, not just a little. Talk about that. Matt Molt: Well, I just had a birthday and most of my gifts were Star Wars related because people know that. I buy my tickets the moment they go on sale for the movies. I got Disney+ so I can watch The Mandalorian and then cancel it when I've watched it all, and I'll re-up it this fall when the new season comes out. So I do love it. I love Costco, Star Wars and Tri-Cities. I really have a passion for all those. Yeah. Paul Casey: Woo hoo. Well, we're going to dive in with Matt after checking with our Tri-City Influencer sponsor. Preston House: Hi, my name is Preston House and I'm the local owner of Papa John's Pizza, right here in Tri-Cities. Jesus Melendez: I'm Jesus Melendez, Vice President and Commercial Lender with Community First Bank and HFG Trust. Preston House: When I moved here in 2009 with my family from Boise, Idaho, I knew I wanted to move from a franchise to a local business owner. I'd been working with Papa John's since I was 16 years old, so when it came time to open my own location here in my own community, I knew I needed some financial guidance from an organization who understood my needs as a small business owner. Jesus Melendez: Small business owners often have a lot on their plate. Employment, retirement plans, payroll, bills. Our mission is to become your financial partner for life and is motivated by providing people in our community, like Preston, with all the information and support they need, all under one roof. Preston House: It's really simple. No matter what I need, all it takes is one phone call. No automated prompts, no call waiting. It's just a local business serving another local business. Jesus Melendez: For more information on how Community First Bank and HFG Trust can help you get back on track, visit www.community1st.com. That's www.community 1-S-T.com. Paul Casey: Thank you for your supportive leadership development in the Tri-Cities. Well, welcome Matt and ... Welcome, Matt, that sounds sort of funny. You probably had that one happen before as well. Matt Molt: Welcome Matt. Paul Casey: I was privileged to meet years ago just in passing, but more recently in joining New Vintage Church in the fall, October, and getting to know you on a one-to-one basis, becoming friends. It's been awesome. I know you have a desire to influence here in the Tri-Cities. I have the For Tri-City shirt sold at the church, and great to be able to interview you today. Matt Molt: Now, I thought this was going to be an intervention that I was going to do some deep soul work on you, but I guess this is going in another direction. Paul Casey: I'm asking the questions now, buddy. So that our Tri-City influencers can get to know you, take us through a couple of your highlights that has led you to your current position and why you love doing what you do. Matt Molt: Sure. So just for context for people, I just turned 50- Paul Casey: Woo hoo. Me too. Matt Molt: ... June 30. And so yeah, now my gray in my beard makes sense. We moved to the Tri-Cities 10 years ago to start New Vintage Church. So back before that, some of the career points were that I worked for my dad in construction a lot growing up. All kinds of different things, mostly brick, concrete, things like that. And then I worked for my uncle for seven years at a used tire store in North Portland. That, I have a lot of stories from. A lot of crazy things. That got me through college. It was called Ed's High Treads. And then I did carpet installation, had my own truck, and then worked for a large retailer in Portland people might not know. But I end up scheduling all their installers, which was a nightmare for carpet companies. So I ended up coordinating, creating an entire department for this big retailer and that was a big learning curve and a lot of fun. Matt Molt: And then my passion was always to help young people, so I ended up working for a church in Vancouver, and worked there for 13 years with young people. I did 19 years total of youth work in my life. Seven of it was volunteer and then I got paid, and then felt that internal nudge to go start New Vintage and started trying to think of where to go. We ended up in Tri-Cities and love it here. So that's what got us here. I can tell you what I love about it. Matt Molt: I love a couple of things. One, is I think any, no matter what people do for a job, I happen to be a pastor, but I think people are trying to tell a story. So they're trying to say why you should buy this coffee mug or why you should go to this restaurant. And so I'm trying to connect the dots between, essentially, a 2000 year old story of Jesus in the Bible, to a modern culture where everybody has smartphones and try to make it make sense. So for me, I have a real passion of bridging that gap for people. Matt Molt: I also, along with that, I love resourcing people. So I love to ... If you said, "Hey, what's a great book on this? Where do I go to get the best Thai food in Tri-Cities," I love helping people find answers. So those are passions for me. And I guess the final thing is I love people. I think people, they're the biggest pain points in my entire life, but they're also the most rewarding things. So I like sticking with it with people and seeing how that works out. Those are what I'm passionate about. Paul Casey: That is awesome. And your passion is evident. Matt Molt: Oh, good. Paul Casey: Well, Ed's High Treads. Matt Molt: Yes. Paul Casey: Tell me what ... From before you went into the church world, what are some lessons maybe you learned from those first few jobs? Matt Molt: Yeah, well, so it was my uncle Ed and myself were the only employees and sometimes we'd have five or six cars at a time going. And man, it was a little bit of a scary neighborhood, looking back. I had people one time come in and start stealing tires. Just open up their trunk, start throwing them in there. I had to go and say, "Hey, I need you to open your trunk," and I start pulling the tires out. And they're like, "What are you doing? Those are my ..." So the confrontation was terrifying. Had a one gal get dumped off, literally pushed out of her car onto our corner, from some really bad boyfriend scenario. So we called for a ambulance. Matt Molt: And learning how to open and close, how to be responsible for the money, how to do all of those things, ordering parts. I was literally dumped into the hot water. I was not slowly turned up. So everything was a learning curve for me. And I actually thrive a little bit in that. I'm a kinesthetic learner, you know? Paul Casey: Okay. Yep. Hands-on. Yeah. Matt Molt: If I can do it, I can learn it. So that gave me a lot of experience. And man, it was hard work. You get dirty working with tires. But yeah, I enjoyed it. It was good, hard work. Paul Casey: Yeah. Matt brought up kinesthetic learning. You're either audio, visual or kinesthetic. I'll put this in the show notes, so a free link to one of those quizzes to see which one you are. Most people are visual and then kinesthetic, usually number two, and audio, you podcast listeners, you maybe lean a little bit more toward audio. We'll see when you take the test. Paul Casey: So Matt, throughout your journey, you hit some obstacles to success, right? So what's one of the biggest hurdles you overcame in your career? Matt Molt: This is easy. I think because I love working with people, I was not good at conflict or conflict resolution. That was a huge hurdle when you're trying to lead people because in small organizations, you can get everybody to think like you or hire the people to think like you, but if you're going to make a difference, somebody told me this, you can either have growth or you can have peace, but you can't have both. So if you're going to have growth, if you're going to grow your organization, you're going to have conflict. Matt Molt: And so conflict and learning how to deal with that, I think has been the biggest thing. So our team went through a book called Radical Candor. It's a great- Paul Casey: It's a great book, yes. Read it last year. Matt Molt: So that became a framework for us to be able to have the tools and common language to go, "When I have a talk with you, I want to have a radical candor talk." And because we had already built the relationship capital, we could then go, "Okay, this is going to be an honest talk." So that was probably one of the biggest learning things for me, and it was terrifying because my personality style is not conflict-oriented. So that was probably the biggest thing. Paul Casey: Yeah, that book, Radical Candor, I can picture the quadrants, right? Matt Molt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Paul Casey: The one that's super aggressive. Do you remember the terms in there? There's the super aggressive, there's the passive aggressive, and then there's the milk, toast kind of ... Matt Molt: Yeah. There's the X and Y almost axis. Paul Casey: Right? Matt Molt: And it's less care and more care, and less honesty and more honesty. You want to be in that fourth, final quadrant: lots of care, that allows lots of honesty. But that takes time and investment. Paul Casey: It's a great book. We'll put that in the show notes as well. I love how you said growth or peace, never both. And I've heard growth or control, never both. Either way, it's the same. If you want growth, you're going to have to go there. The danger zone. Matt Molt: Yeah. Paul Casey: Leadership is difficult. So what is your biggest ongoing challenge as a leader? And what's really stretching, it could be stretching you in a great way or at a very uncomfortable way? Matt Molt: Yeah. That is a really good question. I would say trying to stay rooted to what I know ... So our cultures learn the terms "essential services," but in our individual lives, because everything's changed so much, I've had to go, "Okay, what's essential or core?" And so for me, in church world, we can't even meet. Again, I know that this is going to get played at a different time, but so we're trying to be creative with online. We're trying to be creative doing some parking lot things. Matt Molt: What that has done, is created a real sense of having to go, "What is essential? What is core?" And then the challenge is not just coming down to the bottom, the lowest common denominator, but the challenge is to stay rooted and to pivot. So I feel like for the last four months of my life, it's been, and really for all of my leadership, it's constant agility, constant pivoting. So we can talk more about that if you want to, but learning a few things about that. Paul Casey: Yeah. Have you already decided as a team, a leadership team, what's no longer going to be? You know, for the future, there's a new essential, maybe that has emerged? Matt Molt: Yeah. We, as a team, when COVID started, I was in Denver and I remember they shut down sports, then they shut down Disneyland, schools, and I went, "Okay, this is going to be ... This is not going to be three weeks and we're done." So we get back into town, meet with our team, and I said, "Look, we're going to plan as if this is going to be a year long before we could ever have business as we know it." Paul Casey: You said that right away, in that week? Matt Molt: Yes. Paul Casey: Wow. That's great. Matt Molt: I said, "We have to think, we have to develop our online thing. We have to go figure out how we're going to connect to people that are connected to us, and we're going to have to make that work." So that was a big deal. And then three or four weeks into that, we were exhausted from trying to learn all of that and get better. Matt Molt: So then another key moment for us, as a team, was in the morning at one of our staff meetings, on a Monday morning, I said, "Guys, I want us to all take a deep breath. Okay? We're going to change things every week. It could be radical changes, but every week we're going to evaluate because phases could change. Everything could change. So every week I want you to come prepared knowing that nothing is going to stay the same." And so those mindsets, we've kept a lot of things the same, but we have changed and it's helped our team to, I think, manage all the radical shifts that we've just had to be agile with. That's the leadership challenge for me right now. And everybody I talked to, I think, resonates with that on some level, most people do. Paul Casey: They do. They do. That agility is so ... What a great skill. Would you say most of your staff has that agility, and maybe there's some that really struggle with that? Matt Molt: Yeah. So I try to have people have different skill sets for the different roles they play. Some are very administrative, some are more people-oriented, more upfront sales, can promote. We have a few on our team that are risk-averse and they want things to stay the same. And they actually do really well if we go, "Hey, this is the system," and they go, "Okay, great. I'm going to work within that." But if we change the system every Monday, they have a very difficult time. So it requires a little more time with them, but also continuing to tell them, "Hey, we're going to set this up, but this is going to change next week." Matt Molt: But the goal ... That's why I say keeping to the essentials and figuring out, "Okay, what is it we do? What do we want? What's our goal," that helps keep us rooted while we're pivoting. So people who have a hard time with change, they can accept change if they know, "Hey, the goals stay the same." Okay, so we want to impact peoples' lives for the better, that's the goal. How we do that could change every week, but as long as they come back to that, that's, I think, a thing that's helped us. Paul Casey: Yeah. That reminds me of Jim Collins years ago, preserve the core and stimulate progress. Right? Matt Molt: Yes. Paul Casey: These things are bedrock, but these things, these methods, they're probably going to change along the way. Paul Casey: If you had a leadership philosophy, Matt, that you would put front and center on a bulletin board in your office, or outside the church, or on a car sticker for all to see, what would those messages say? It could be one or a couple. Matt Molt: Okay. I'm going to give you two. I didn't learn a lot about my family history growing up. Well, I did from my mom and dad a little bit, but I didn't know a lot about the roots, and so it's always been interesting to me to go back and try to do research and figure that out. Matt Molt: So I decided when we started having kids, which was 25 years ago, I wanted to have a family crest or a family motto. I had heard some families do that. So I just invented one, and it actually served at raising kids pretty well. The phrase there was, that I put on the door, "We are Molts. We finish the job." So if kids started sports or piano lessons or whatever, they couldn't bail out. So they had to count the cost ahead of time. Matt Molt: And then probably the more relevant one, Paul, would be, I'm going to steal a phrase from an author I know named Eugene Peterson, he says this, "A long obedience in the same direction" Paul Casey: Yes, I've heard that. Matt Molt: I think if a leadership principle is to do one thing and just continue to keep doing it, just do it well, get your 10,000 hours in, go for it. Paul Casey: Yes. The 10,000 hours to become an expert. Yeah, love that. And that was good parenting advice that Matt threw in there, of have your children count the cost on the front end because you're going to be in this to its conclusion. Matt Molt: Right. Paul Casey: Well, most influencers I know have a bit of visionary inside them in order to take that next hill. So where do you take the time to dream about the future and what does that look like? Matt Molt: Yeah, you had mentioned that this was going to be on there, so I've thought about this a little bit. I think that there is ... I think that they're related, but they're different. I think there's vision and there's creativity and there's inspiration. I think they're different, but related. So I think vision comes at critical moments in your life, and vision doesn't come all the time. So maybe you're going to college and you go, "I could see myself being this." Or maybe it's a career change or your family moves and you go, "This door opens." That's kind of vision. Matt Molt: Inspiration though, to me, is kind of like ... So, I love the word inspiration. I actually studied it out, the root word of where it came from. It comes from the word that we get "spire." The big, tall spikes off of a building. And it means to be able to go up really high and see farther than what normal people can see or what you could see at ground level. So to inspire is to see farther ahead and then be able to tell people, "Hey, there's something great up ahead." So to me, I think staying inspired as a visionary leader is the framework that I would put that in. Does that make sense? Paul Casey: Yeah. Matt Molt: So for me to do that ... Man, I almost crashed and burned. I think I almost burned out about a year and a half ago, and I told some people that I'm close to on our board and some friends, I said, "Hey, I don't think I'm in a good spot." So I actually went and got counseling and took six weeks off, and got some rest and learned some ways to integrate rest into my schedule. Because I'll just keep going. Matt Molt: I think creativity, inspiration come out of rest. And I think that vision comes out of just, if sparked, nowhere, or it comes from the universe, or it comes from God. Those moments happen to you, but I think inspiration, generally speaking, comes from rest. And I would say creativity comes not from abundance, but from lack. Matt Molt: So COVID has sparked a lot of creativity for me because it's like, "Okay, we have less." So you go, this is ... There's four toys in here, what can we build? And if you had 800 toys, there's less creativity that happens. So anyway, those are my thoughts on that. But rest has been a really key thing for me. Paul Casey: Yeah. I really believe that too. I think we get our biggest breakthroughs in life when we have that solitude, that time, that white space. And very few of my clients would say they do a really great ... "I take my breaks every day." I can't think of one of my clients that says that. Or, "I take a personal retreat every week or every month." It's just something that we, as drivers, achievers- Matt Molt: Right. Paul Casey: ... we just keep going. So how can we get inspiration if we just keep grinding? Matt Molt: Yeah, I think so one of the practices I picked up on is, and this is going to sound ironic because I am a pastor, but I never really took, in a biblical, to use a biblical word, would be Sabbath, or just in regular leadership, to take a day off. Most people I know that our leaders or influencers don't rest well. And so we always check our phone, we're panicky if we're not checking our phone. And that was me. Matt Molt: So I just started to, I forced myself, I think, for mental health reasons and out of some of the counsel I got, to go, "Hey, get it done in five days or six days, and then force yourself to not do it." It was really awkward to do that, but I find that I actually have ... I do better if I come into the week with some rest underneath me, instead of looking forward to the weekend that way. So I have tried to shift my thinking to go, "I'm going to work from a rested spot instead of work and then rest." Paul Casey: Yes. Yes. Matt Molt: And then the other thing that people don't get, Paul, is that the world's going to keep going, even if you don't go to work today. If you got sick and had to not do the podcast and delay it a day or two, the world doesn't stop. Most of our businesses won't shut down completely. So I think we can build that in, and I think it allows for inspiration. Paul Casey: Good stuff. Matt Molt: I had to learn that though. I had to pay dearly for that one. Paul Casey: Yes. Good stuff. So Tri-City influencers, you heard, inspiration, seeing farther ahead and telling others, like going up the spire of a church building or a temple. Resting from your work, and when I studied Sabbath too, I got that too. It's work from your rest or rest from your work. Right? Most of us think rest from our work, the weekends here. But instead, it's working out of abundance of rest. And that was a great, great study that I did years ago. And then that FOMO, that fear of missing out for influencers. I heard someone say, "No, it should be JOMO. The joy of missing out." Matt Molt: Yes. There you go. I like it. Paul Casey: That was cool. Well, before we get into our next question on Matt's morning routine, a shout out to our sponsor. Preston House: Hi, my name is Preston House and I'm the local owner of Papa John's Pizza, right here in Tri-Cities. Jesus Melendez: I'm Jesus Melendez, Vice President and Commercial Lender with Community First Bank and HFG Trust. Preston House: When I moved here in 2009 with my family from Boise, Idaho, I knew I wanted to move from a franchise to a local business owner. I'd been working with Papa John's since I was 16 years old, so when it came time to open my own location here in my own community, I knew I needed some financial guidance from an organization who understood my needs as a small business owner. Jesus Melendez: Small business owners often have a lot on their plate. Employment, retirement plans, payroll, bills. Our mission is to become your financial partner for life and is motivated by providing people in our community, like Preston, with all the information and support they need, all under one roof. Preston House: It's really simple. No matter what I need, all it takes is one phone call. No automated prompts, no call waiting. It's just a local business serving another local business. Jesus Melendez: For more information on how Community First Bank and HFG Trust can help you get back on track, visit www.community1st.com. That's www.community 1-S-T.com. Paul Casey: So Matt, what is your typical morning routine before work or once arriving at work, in a non-COVID sense, that helps you start the day strong? Matt Molt: Yeah. Well, sometimes it can vary because I have different appointments or things, but I have a couple of practices. So one, is it's really, this is very spiritual. I drink coffee every morning. Paul Casey: I feel like I'm in a sacred space. Matt Molt: It is. So French press, Costco, which is the Starbucks espresso blend. I start there. I'm trying to get in a walk in my neighborhood. I live in South Kennewick. So hitting the hills over there is really good inner space for my head. And then I'll do some reading. For me, I read scripture and then I will also try to peek at the news, but I put a limit on it so I don't get depressed. Read a little bit a news, check email. I do a practice ... I realize that this is broader than a Christian environment, but I think it could be helpful and people can adapt this to their own lives. Matt Molt: I do two different types of prayer during the day. So in the morning I do what's referred to, in history, as the Lord's Prayer. So it's a very simple prayer. You can look it up on Google, but it's what Jesus prayed. It's short. But each of those pieces are very meaningful to me, and they're helpful, especially the forgiveness part. Because usually in a people industry, I got a lot of people I got to forgive. So every morning that actually really helps me. So that's why I'm sharing that. Matt Molt: And then at the night I stop and I do what's an ancient practice, called Examen Prayer, and I just look at the last 24 hours, try to find places to be grateful for, and then to set my mindset to look for blessings or divine guidance or whatever for the coming 24 hours. So those two things have helped me, but it starts in my morning routine. And then I go to work, put on some 80s music and hit it hard. Paul Casey: 80s music. We could explore that too. Well, you mentioned one of the ways you burn ... You were on the edge of burnout a year and a half ago. One of the things I really appreciate about you is your transparency, Matt. And you had mentioned you also went to counseling during that time because it's a scary place. Matt Molt: Yeah. Paul Casey: Burnout's a scary place. You've ever experienced it, you don't want to be there. So how do you now stay on this side of burnout during that everyday grind of your people work? Matt Molt: Yeah, so when I went to counseling, it was intensive. It was five days, three hours in the morning. Had a lot of problems. Paul Casey: Anybody else, listener, has that kind of counseling? Matt Molt: Man, it was something else. I had never gone to any kind of counseling. Paul Casey: Oh, wow. That was your first experience. Matt Molt: Yeah, so I dove into the deep end. At the end of that, the goal that the counselor said, is he said, "Hey, we're going to try to get past this false self and get to the true self. What are you really made of? What are you really supposed to do with life?" And then the key for me, that he comes to the conclusion with me, was my calendar. And that's, I know, a passion for you. Paul Casey: Yeah. Matt Molt: So the key was to schedule breaks and to schedule work, and then to say no to anything that doesn't fit into that. So the ability to say no is not just innate. As leaders, we're going to keep going. But if you view it through the lens of does that fit into my calendar or not, that is such a tangible measurement of leadership ability and also limitations. And limitations are good. They keep the boundaries on the river so that we don't burn out. Matt Molt: So for me, I schedule my weekly day off that I don't do any work. And then I also schedule in evenings for the family. And that sounds cold, like I don't care, but most leaders struggle with having a great relationship with their spouse or their significant other or their kids. And the things that we love, we just assume they're there, but we actually have to plan in what we care about, including our family. Paul Casey: Yes. Matt Molt: So that has really helped me to keep from burning out, and it's made a huge difference in my life. Matt Molt: The other part would be tools I picked up mentally from my counselor. So I'll give you one. He said, "When you get anxious, you got to ask yourself two questions. What am I feeling?" And to try to identify that as a man is, I don't know. Paul Casey: What's that? Feeling? Matt Molt: Yeah. I did some work on trying to figure that stuff out. But what are you feeling, and then the second question is, why are you feeling that way? Where did that come from? Because for men, a lot of times, it's anger, but anger is a secondary emotion. Paul Casey: Yes. Matt Molt: What's below that and why am I upset about this? And that actually has kept the anxiety at bay and helped me to go, "Okay, well I can target that. I can work on that area. Or, that's out of my control, I can't work on it. So I'm going to let it go." So that and the calendar have helped me. Paul Casey: Yeah. I also struggle with calendar and try and master that. I've also felt the plasticity of, "I got a calendar my family? I don't want them to feel like this checkoff list." Matt Molt: You just don't tell them. Paul Casey: Yeah. We've had that discussion with my wife. "I don't want to be another thing on your calendar." Right? I'm trying to reframe that by saying, "You're a priority on my calendar, right? I'm putting you in first on that." Sometimes we have to do that, especially if you're driven, a little bit more Type A with your calendar, you're going to have to put in those priorities and then schedule the rest of your week around that. Core values come first, when it comes to time management. Paul Casey: I also like the boundaries principle you brought up there. I heard it once said, an early career, you got to say yes a lot because you just got to take opportunities as they come and build more influence, build more opportunities to grow. And then as you mature, you got to say no more. You've got to be more discerning. Matt Molt: That's interesting. Yeah. Paul Casey: It's a sign of discernment to be able to go, "Nope, that doesn't fit with my personal mission statement or my calendar," and then you just keep doing the best, the things you're are strong at. Paul Casey: Family's a big deal. So we've talked a little bit about that just now. How do you prioritize family and still be a high performer at the church? How do you juggle those two things? I know it's a tension to manage, right? It's never a solved problem. Matt Molt: Yeah, well, I don't know that every business has this, every business leader would have this availability, but everybody can work on this principally. If I'm sitting down with you for the first time to have a cup of coffee and we're going to meet, and you're a client, or maybe you're looking to go to a new church, for instance, in my world, I would tell you, "Hey, I'm not going to answer my phone unless it's my wife or my daughter." My boys can take care of themselves, they're older and married. But so I set the bar to let people know that if I get my daughter, if she's having car trouble, she gets my attention over you. So I prioritize that that way. Matt Molt: And then as my kids have gotten older, we would have, I would have dates with my kids. So on Fridays, it's my date with Abby. So we go get Roasters Coffee or Red Rail. It's her choice. So she just knows she has a regular time with me. She's going off to college, so I'm a little sad talking about it, but that's been really great to just have a routine time. Besides family nights, we'll watch movies together, have dinner. My wife's really good about doing highs and lows at the dinner table. What was great today? What was the worst part? So we have some interaction that way. Matt Molt: One thing that I think people don't know how to do with their kids is, the key is, when you're going to have set time with your kids, is don't over-agenda it on your end. What does the kid want to do? Where do they want to eat? What do they want to talk about? I make a rule, there's no discipline or correction in that timeframe. So if I got to tell Abby, "Hey, you got to do this different," different day, Thursday or Saturday, but Friday's her time. That has helped. I do that with my wife, it's a very similar thing, except for the correction part. She does that for me. Paul Casey: That's really good. Matt Molt: That's kept family first. Paul Casey: It sort of reminds me like when you're training a dog, you don't want to say, "Come here," and then hit him on the nose. Right? Then they're not going to want to spend any time with you. Matt Molt: That's right. Paul Casey: So you got to keep discipline out of the picture because you want them to look forward to that date. Matt Molt: Right. Paul Casey: And date nights really are special. I also have an 18 year old going off to college, in this weird 2020 year, where they got ripped off of a bunch of stuff, and we tried to make it as special as we could. So those dates now are rich. Look forward to them. Paul Casey: Well, influencers aren't know-it-alls, but they're learners. I know you're a learner, Matt. Where do you go for the wisest advice? These could be people here in the Tri-Cities. They could be authors or motivators or ministry professionals. Where do you go for that? Matt Molt: Yeah. So real quickly, I think I have a couple different things. So when it comes to people, I have five people that are in my industry, but are farther along. They're different circles, different denominations, even, but all similar in some ways. I contact them regularly, probably once a month, so I have a conversation and I'm very intentional to set that up for myself. "How are you handling this? What do you do with this? Hey, I have this issue; how have you handled this?" Matt Molt: And then I do some industry podcasts. I would say there's a guy named Craig Groeschel does an incredible- Paul Casey: Love him. Matt Molt: ... leadership podcasts. Probably one of my favorite, very short 20 minutes. I love this one called Tri-City Influencers. Powerful podcast. Paul Casey: Shameless plug. Matt Molt: Yes. And then I also give my myself permission to experiment. I'm going to try and I'm going to fail. So that helps me grow on just my personal level. And lastly, is I'm a pretty ferocious reader. So I try to read 26 books a year, one every two weeks. I always buy more books. I always buy 40 books and only read 26 to 30, but I that's how I learn, and I love it. Paul Casey: Fantastic. Finally, Matt, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing and gaining more influence? Matt Molt: Yeah, I would say it's when you are young ... Man, I will tell you what pays off in longterm, is character is the currency that's valued in our culture. So people will pick up on bad character and they will write you off. And so good character pays off longterm. I would say have a long obedience in the same direction. If you go, "Hey, I feel like I'm supposed to be a salesman. I'm good at sales or I'm a business owner," do that. Fail at a couple of businesses, get them out of the way, keep going, do your thing and don't stop. Matt Molt: And lastly, I would say that to pour into people, it can't always be about us. Even me, I always want to be a better pastor, a better leader, better speaker, more influential, and I have found that I can't just put all my efforts into getting better. I have to put efforts into other people getting better. So if I invest in others, it kind of raises the water level, so to speak, of all boats rise. Paul Casey: Yes. Matt Molt: So that those have been keys for me. Paul Casey: Fantastic. Well, Matt, how can our listeners best connect with you and the church? Matt Molt: Yeah, so I'm on Instagram and then it copies over to Facebook, but I'm not on Facebook as much. So Instagram, it's just Matt Molt, two Ts, M-A-T-T, M-O-L-T. And we'd love to have you follow me or inbox me there if you have any questions. Matt Molt: And then our church is New Vintage Church. We're down in the parking lot by the old, where Chuck E. Cheese used to be. We're always open for anybody to come and hang out, and we think we have an amazing gathering there. We're also online, newvintagechurch.com. Paul Casey: Well, thanks again for all you do to make the Tri-Cities a great place and keep leading well. Matt Molt: Thanks. Paul Casey: Let me wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend. Many of you have heard of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, and if you're like, "All right, I don't want to pay the money for that," well, there's actually a Myers-Briggs-like one called the Neris Type, N-E-R-I-S, Type Explorer. And it's at 16personalities.com. The number 1, 6, personalities.com. There's a free personality test and it'll give you similar results to the Myers-Briggs, but just so you can start talking the lingo, that may be a great way to identify your uniqueness. Paul Casey: Again, this is Paul Casey. I want to thank my guest, Matt Molt from New Vintage Church for being here today on the Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast. And we want to thank our TCI sponsor and invite you to support them. We appreciate you making this possible so we can collaborate to help inspire leaders in our community. Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road to help you make a difference in your circle of influence. Tony Robbins says, "Only those who have learned the power of sincere and selfless contribution experience life's deepest joy, true fulfillment." Paul Casey: Until next time, KGF, keep growing forward.   Thank you to our listeners for tuning in to today's show. Paul Casey is on a mission to add value to leaders by providing practical tools and strategies that reduce stress in their lives and on their teams, so that they can enjoy life and leadership, and experience their key desired results. If you'd like more help from Paul in your leadership development, connect with him at growingforward@paulcasey.org for a consultation that can help you move past your current challenges and create a strategy for growing your life or your team forward. Paul would also like to help you restore your sanity to your crazy schedule and getting your priorities done every day by offering you his free Control My Calendar checklist. Go to www.takebackmycalendar.com for that productivity tool or open a text message to 72000 and type the word "grow." Paul Casey: Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast was recorded at Fuse SPC by Bill Wagner of Safe Strategies.  

Gil Hedley joins Tahnee on the podcast today. Gil is an anatomist and self proclaimed "Somanaut" - a person who is "dedicated to exploring the inner space of human form". Gil has encouraged thousands of fellow "somanauts" to appreciate, explore and embody the wonders of human form through his lecture presentations and hands-on human dissection courses in the laboratory. Tahnee and Gil dive deep today, exploring the intricate nature of the of these bodies we call human. The pair share their insights through the lens of anatomy, philosophy and spirituality. This one is a bit of a mind bender folks, but in the best possible way. Tune in to be taken beyond the linear understanding of the human body into the expansive realm of universal connection. Tahnee and Gil discuss: Integral vs regional anatomy, embodied understanding vs intellectual analysis. The heart as a factual vessel not a 'pump'. Taoist sexuality and sexual anatomy. Religion and spirituality. The intricacy and non symmetrical nature of the human form. The human body as a whole, each individual as a cellular representation of the whole - the universal body. Martial Arts and the textural foundations of the body. The fascial system.   Who is Gil Hedley? Gil Hedley is an anatomist and certified Rolfer who holds a PhD in theological ethics. Gil's combined interests and training have supported his personal and professional exploration of the human body, which has lead him to develop an integral approach to the study of human anatomy. Through hands-on human dissections courses in the laboratory and lecture presentations, Gil has encouraged thousands of fellow "somanauts" to appreciate, explore and embody the wonders of human form. Gil has authored a number of books, as well as produced The Integral Anatomy Series, a set of four feature-length videos documenting his whole body, layer-by-layer approach through on-camera dissection.   Resources: Gil's Website Gil's Facebook Gil's Youtube   Gil's Free Online Courses   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee:   (00:08) Hi everybody. Welcome to the SuperFeast Podcast. Today I'm really excited to introduce Gil Hedley, who's joining us from Colorado. Hi Gil.   Gil Hedley:   (00:15) Hi, Tahnee.   Tahnee:  (00:16) Nice to have you here with us.   Gil Hedley:   (00:18) And everybody listening.   Tahnee:  (00:19) Yeah, the whole listening world. Gil is the founder of Integral Anatomy and he's a really amazing anatomist and somanaut which is a great word that I'd love for you to explain for us later if that's okay. But also you've studied theology and you have a PhD in theology. Is that correct?   Gil Hedley:   (00:37) Theological ethics, actually, yeah.   Tahnee:  (00:38) Okay. And you've done some rolfing things. You've kind of got this interesting mix of I guess the spiritual, and the tangible physical, and then obviously, like through the hands-on human dissection that you do. I feel like that's such an interesting combination of worlds to weave. But what I've seen you express, I suppose is this really beautiful and profound philosophy that I guess has arisen through your physical dissections and actual extractions of human form. But how does one go from actually doing theology, which I understand is like the study of religions and theological ethics, which is I suppose, I saw your piece on marriage. Is this around the role religion plays and how we create ethical constructs in our society. Is that right?   Gil Hedley:  (01:28) That's exactly right. Yeah, exactly. Looking to see the moral systems that are rooted in religions. So that's my master's degree. It was in the study of religion. My BA was also in the study of religion, and my PhD. All ethics throughout actually, I was studying ethics throughout. But basically, yeah, looking at ethics is a meta study where you look at people's ways of being in a world and trying to see how they reason about their moral-   Tahnee:  (02:05) Conduct sort of thing.   Gil Hedley:  (02:05) Conducts, and preferences, and choices, right? So.. And then theological ethics is where you look specifically to the moral systems of religious systems and ask like, "How do they come to believe that? What's their rationale for holding that position," or what have you. So actually, I brought my spirituality to the University of Chicago, certainly didn't get it from it. In fact, when I showed up, they're like, "What are you talking about God? we don't know God," because it's a very academic and abstract mental place.   Gil Hedley:  (02:37) That sort of intentionally drives you out of your body. My attempt to claim a body there was, was amusing I think, to my professors. I started doing Tai Chi and then I learned massage and rolfing while I was in my PhD program, in my own effort to just ground myself because I felt that although grounding was not a appreciated pursuit in my field, actually quite the opposite. I felt that it was ridiculous to try and come to moral positions or study ethics about the body, for instance, and make rules and such about the body or even evaluate rules about the body without knowing what a body is, or even living in one because it wasn't really valued to actually live in your body at the University of Chicago. I went into Tai Chi to try and just ground myself and get a little physical and explore my movement and such. I went to massage training and my rolfing training.   Gil Hedley:  (03:46) I got a little more body connection. I kind of realised that I couldn't speak to the body without having a more intimate understanding of the body. Before you knew it, I wasn't so much into the rolfing thing as I was into the anatomy that was helping me be a good rolfer. I sort of switched my career choice out of the rolfing upon the shoulders of which I continue to stand and into the the body exploration in the laboratory, where I found myself swimming in a universe that both terrified me and compelled me completely.   Gil Hedley:  (04:28) I found that when folks found out what I was doing, friends and other people, I was in a healing school as well after my rolfing training, did five years in an energetic healing school, kind of psychodynamics and energy healing and that kind of thing. My friends were like, "Teach us anatomy." I was like okay. I kind of told them what was going on in the lab. When I was in the lab, I kind of brought the energy of the healing school to that. That's much more how spirituality made its way into my anatomy laboratory as opposed to anything I ever got at the University of Chicago studying theological ethics, where I basically just fought the popes in Latin. It wasn't really particularly spiritual.   Tahnee:  (05:15) Well, and religion has such a history of denying the body because I mean ...   Gil Hedley:  (05:20) Exactly.   Tahnee:  (05:21) Do you have anything to say to that? Because I mean, I've got lots of thoughts on that.   Gil Hedley:  (05:25) Absolutely I mean the ease with which I engaged in the intellectual pursuits at the university and in graduate school was grounded, it was founded I should say, in my own disconnection to my body that was definitely fostered by my religious upbringing as a Roman Catholic. With all due respect to Roman Catholics, some of my best friends are Roman Catholics, my mum for instance, the modelling of the body in the church that I was raised in as liberal and 1960's kumbaya religion that I was raised with, still had a beloved saviour crucified, right, as the model of the body, and a virgin mother of him. So when you put those two together, you start scratching your head. You don't even have to scratch your head.   Gil Hedley:  (06:24) It's so deep. It goes in so deep to your psyche and to your way of moving, literally it affects how you move when your heroes, when your spiritual heroes, are naked but murdered and his mother weeping at the foot of the cross, actually never had sex, according to the story. So this is strange, and it's a strange way to model by the people you value most are void and have broken their bodies and offer their bodies as a sacrifice etc. When you take that seriously and I did, I took it so seriously, I got a PhD teaching Catholic ethics.   Gil Hedley:  (07:06) You get massively conflicted around your body and around your body's urges, around sexuality, around physicality, and many people just never worked through that. I've actually used the study of anatomy and the exploration of movement through something like Tai Chi for years. Then just like life and sex and family to become embodied. So that when I speak an anatomy word, it's not just an intellectual thing for me. I have a relationship with that tissue, an intimate relationship with a tissue. I know what it feels like, I know where it is. I can go there. I can call out its name and it calls back to me with sensation. So that's the embodiment that I've pursued and it's their integral anatomy.   Tahnee:  (08:02) So do you feel like there's this deeper sense of like introception and self-awareness, I suppose through the work that you've done, like it hasn't? Because I think a lot of people-   Gil Hedley:  (08:13) Yeah, I can go in there.   Tahnee:  (08:15) Let's go. Yeah. Because I mean, I see a lot of people. I've done a little bit of work in wet labs and stuff. It's almost like people become disconnected from the body when they do that work. It becomes this body I guess.   Gil Hedley:  (08:29) There's a risk of that when the approaches is regional and not integral. That's why I've developed integral anatomy because a regional anatomy, when you're parsing the body out literally into parts, bits, pieces, naming them, that's an intellectual process. It's a mental construct, and it doesn't have a whole lot to do with what's in front of you. But if you give a little time for the body to talk to you and tell it a bit about itself, and this was kind of my point as an ethicist was I keep learning about people and systems that are ordering the body around. They haven't even stopped to listen to what it has to say, or how it's organised, and what it might speak to the moral life because it's the moral life is lived, is a bodily lived experience.So what does the body speak to that? Because if the body is a gift and not a curse, then it can possibly inform the moral life rather than be its subjugated-   Tahnee:  (09:25) Vehicle of fear almost. Yeah.   Gil Hedley:  (09:28) And bedraggled partner or servant or mule as it were. Yeah, so if you're just doing regional anatomy, you really do run the risk of of getting disconnected. When you come into a lab and the body's head, and hands, and feet are wrapped, and they're faced down, and you never connect with them as even though the housing of a person but it's just like you're on day one of medical school. You're told to go in and find the integration of the trapezius muscle, meaning you have to hack a panel out of the skin, superficial fascia, deep fascia, flip the muscle over, find the nerve, then you get your A. Now, what happened to you in the process, right?   Gil Hedley:  (10:16) So chances are, you're disconnected or as I bring people into a room, we stand around the table holding hands in a circle. We give thanks and we bring ourselves into a state of appreciation. We acknowledge that this form is a gift, and this is came from a person who had an intention or the family who has an intention. We look them in the eye, and we sit them up, and we stand them up, even and we meet them in a vertical so that we can we can acknowledge, "Oh, this isn't just some dead body. This was someone's body." It's not a person on the table by any means. I'm not a surgeon. I don't work on living persons.   Gil Hedley:  (10:58) But I do work on the artefacts, and the footprints, and the old shoes of persons. I learned a lot about them as a result of that. I learned more about myself, my own fears, my own disconnections. I invite the people in the room to constantly, step up to that mirror and look in it. And see, do you hate what you see in the mirror? Do you love what you see in the mirror? Do you hate some of it and love some of it? Some of it you can't even see because it's literally outside of your ability to see. So I try and help people to see more. Then to just observe what their relationship is to what they see. Because if it's unappreciative, I'm going to work my hardest to to point out aspects of appreciation that can bring that person into a positive relationship with the gift that's in front of them and hopefully the gift that they're walking around with.   Tahnee:  (11:54) I had a close friend about maybe 2013, do your training in San Francisco. She sent me these emails while she was there, and it was like witnessing a breakdown, and then a breakthrough, and then this kind of rebuilding of her identity. I mean, I just looked at them again, when I knew I was going to talk to you. I remember them, they was so visceral for me when I wasn't there. I can feel how visceral it was for her and this process of spending six days, going back to her hotel alone and just processing. I think about how we're so removed from natural processes, death, birth, like all of these things.   Tahnee:  (12:36) I remember when I had my daughter, I had an experience meditating where I could almost feel this energy stream between her and I. Even though I was across the room from her. I remember reading in one of your posts about like fat being the fascia, sorry being the receiver like a transmitter of energy. I could feel how like my body had softened so that I could have this deep connection with her. I think those little little insights, they just they change your experience so much. How could I hate my chubbiness? If I was deeply connected to my little baby.   Tahnee:  (13:14) I mean, for me, that was just such a beautiful, getting even emotional talking about it. It was such a beautiful change because I've spent my whole life with eating disorders and various forms of that even if they weren't avert. That's what I saw with Kate, her respect for her body and for her students and how she was able to just see differently, I can just imagine you must have these huge transformational experiences going on every day in your work, right?   Gil Hedley:  (13:44) At least in my courses, I definitely set them up as opportunities for transformation and healing, I like to say that my classes are transformational, not traumatic. Because I mean, I was brought into gross anatomy laboratory when I was 17 years old in high school and in an advanced biology class. The guy who took us around the lab, at the Harlem School of Pediatry was basically like John Belushi, it was a joke. He was going to make us laugh and we did laugh, but it was simultaneously horrifying.   Gil Hedley:  (14:22) There were bags of feet on shelves around the room. There were hammy pelvis and legs lying on the table. He's yanking on tendons, showing, making toes move like a chicken. I didn't eat chicken for two years after that visit to the lab. It made a tremendous impression on me. When I came to study in a lab myself, I was like, the fact of the matter is that when you enter the laboratory, you actually go into altered states of consciousness, just by dint of the circumstances.   Gil Hedley:  (14:48) So you don't need to take anything magic to have your consciousness altered when you go into the lab. If you're brought in mindfully, with consciousness and awareness. I felt and do feel a keen responsibility when I have a room full of people in an altered state of consciousness instead of to jerk them around or mess with them, to serve them. From my Catholic upbringing, I have a service mentality. That's my ethics. That's my religion, my religion is service, right? That's the core of my own ethical structure. I do take the opportunity to serve the people in their altered states of consciousness in the laboratory for their sake, as opposed to what often happens in workshops where people are brought into altered states of consciousness and then the leader manipulates them for their own sake to take the next workshop. I hate that. I can't stand that.   Tahnee:  (15:55) Welcome to the yoga industry, yeah.   Gil Hedley:  (15:58) Yeah. It's so mean to start enrolling people when they're in the middle of their ecstatic experience. I would much rather have you calm down and realise here, and two years later think would you ever want to do that again? Most people are like, "No, that was plenty. I got that down." Now, there are the occasional people who come back and come back and back and back. Some people come every year. But they've made it their own practise. That's their own practise. I've made it my own practise as well.   Tahnee:  (16:27) Well, I mean, it seems like an endless task almost to try and map the body. I mean, it's so complicated.   Gil Hedley:  (16:38) It is. Things don't hold my attention for very long unless they're very interesting. So I found like with ethics and the moral life while I was studying that still am, I haven't stopped, observing, making observations and tinkering with my own set of ideas around how it is to be in the world and what I am in the world. What is going on here? These questions still drive me, who I am and what is my body. But when I think about how long I've been doing this for at this point, if you'd asked me, I would be like, "You're crazy." But it turns out that it really is the universe that we're exploring here. Whether you do it in macrocosm or microcosm.   Gil Hedley:  (17:23) I mean, I am like a kid in a candy shop in the lab every day because I'm seeing stuff, making observations, seeing details that have escaped me for all these years or details that I saw and then forgot. To be able to do that is quite a privilege, but also just speaks to the complexity of the subject. Even at the gross anatomical level, because people I mean, many people just dismiss gross anatomy like, "Oh, we already know all that stuff. That was figured out 400 years ago, right?" There it is. It's in the book. It's done there's nothing more to say. If you were getting a PhD in anatomy right now, you'd be hard pressed to find a professor who would support PhD level work and gross anatomy. No, you're going to be doing molecular biology. You're going to be working at nanometer level sizes of anatomy, cellular anatomy, gross anatomy is passe.   Gil Hedley:  (18:28) They'd rather have it out of the building actually because it smells and it's expensive and scary. But I have found actually that working at the gross level, I'm exploring the same questions that people are exploring at the micro level about movement and interfaces and relationships and continuities. But I find that the gross anatomical level provides a mirror for transformation that may be the microscopic level might not. You might not see yourself there quite as easily as you do when you're looking at a bedraggled old man on the table or a sweet old grandma.   Tahnee:  (19:06) Yeah, you see humanity reflected back at you, don't you?   Gil Hedley:  (19:09) Yeah.   Tahnee:  (19:09) I mean, I've read just recently actually read that you were talking about, you've even got theories that challenge, I guess, our gross anatomy conceptions that say like the heart is a pump, like you see it as more of a fluid. Is it that pressure dynamics, is that kind of what you're ...?   Gil Hedley:  (19:30) The heart is definitely not a pump.   Tahnee:  (19:30) Yeah. So speak to that.   Gil Hedley:  (19:32) By design, but the heart can be reduced to a pump, under the untoward circumstances of a stressful life. You can force your heart to become nothing but a pump to maintain homeostasis, but by design the heart is more of a, I see it as the place where the blood spins itself, where it refreshes its movement.   Tahnee:  (19:55) I guess centrifugal force kind of a thing is that what you ...   Gil Hedley:  (19:59) I think it's more about ... Well, there's that for sure, because I would say one of the primary functions of the heart is to facilitate the restoration of the vortex, the lamination of the blood and its flow as opposed to forcing it through smaller and smaller tubes that terminate 30,000 miles away and then make a 30,000-mile road trip back. That ain't happening with that little bit of flesh inside your chest. If you saw the kind of a pump that would be required to force a fluid through pipes with increasingly smaller diameters, the mathematics of it results in the need for an absolutely large machine, which is not located inside your chest.   Gil Hedley:  (20:43) If you've ever seen a heart lung machine, just look it up on Google, heart lung machine. It's like a big ass machine that is forcing blood. It's really the the amazing fluid dynamics and fractal form of the vascular network that's actually a reflection of the movement of fluids rather than its cause that results in the blood being drawn to the periphery and then being drawn back to the centre.   Tahnee:  (21:19) Like a tide, kind of?   Gil Hedley:  (21:21) Yeah, maybe like a tide. But there's a wonderful, wonderful Austrian naturalist whose name was Viktor Schauberger.   Tahnee:  (21:31) Yeah, I was about to say. Because he was all about the water needing to spin in vortex. We have an egg at home that our water-   Gil Hedley:  (21:37) Do you really? That's so cool.   Tahnee:  (21:38) Yeah.   Gil Hedley:  (21:39) How wonderful.   Tahnee:  (21:39) That's the thing. Because like nature is if you look at a coastline, it's all fractals, if you look at anything in nature, it's water streams like and the way water-   Gil Hedley:  (21:48) Yeah, so is the heart rhythm, the heart rhythm is fractal, we are fractal. We are mirrored best with fractal forms. We don't need a pump to make the water go around the planet or to make a vortex form in a stream nor do we need to control the streams banks. Similarly, if left to its own devices and if the heart is free, the blood will flow beautifully for your whole life. But if you resist that flow, if you resist the movement of life within you, literally through hypertension, emotional states and dietary duress is supplying your form, you can actually, I use the phrase canalyzing.   Gil Hedley:  (22:38) Which I mean to make a canal out of literally. So, if you put a canal and put walls, canal walls on a stream, you stress it basically. You dispermit its normal flow of movement, and yet it's still on a spinning planet. So what happens is there's friction, right? Instead of there being sort of a frictionless passage of the fluid, you have friction against the walls of the canal, which will be broken down by the fluid friction and also by the altered chemistry of the water, which when not moving in the same way has an altered chemistry. It's no different in our bodies, when we enter into emotional states that stiffen our otherwise flexible river beds, then we can analyze the path of the blood, generate friction of the blood against the vessel walls, which abraids, destroys them along with the altered chemistry, which chemically abraids them.   Gil Hedley:  (23:36) You have that combination of things, and then homeostasis kicks in and says, "Well, you promised to stay on this planet as long as I could keep you here, and so I'm going to proliferate cholesterol from your liver, the purpose of which is to be an antioxidant, and I'm going to take the oxidised cholesterol. I'll pack into the fissures along the vessel walls and I'm going to ... Oh well that's not enough. We're going to going to a hole in this thing eventually. So you really do want me to build a canal and your body will actually lay down bone basically," it'll calcify a literal canal, a little calcified canal inside the blood vessel. Then your blood will try and flow through that but you've created is no longer being sucked to the end and sucked back.   Gil Hedley:  (24:24) You're actually demanding like I said, at the beginning of the story, that your heart be a pump then, and then you'll get megalocardia, right, the heart will increase it and literally, increase in size as it worked for the first time in your life to move the blood. It never had to work before, it just happened. The ocean doesn't work to draw the rivers into it. The clouds don't work to form, and rain over the mountain tops, and soak into the soil and turn into spring water and bubble back up. There's no work involved. It's all just happening on a spinning planet, in a spinning galaxy. We are that.   Tahnee:  (25:03) Spinning bodies.   Gil Hedley:  (25:04) Yeah, we our bodies, are participating in that potential fluid movement on the planet. Unless we decide to hell no. I'm going to do it this way. I'm going to do it the hard way I'm going to resist the moment of life within me, and show it better. We never do we always show it worse.   Tahnee:  (25:28) I mean, it sounds like you're talking a lot to the Taoist world view. Would you say that's fair? Because it seems to be, like if we resist the flow of life a lot of this stuff, I guess is reminding me of like the Tao Te Ching and those kinds of concepts.   Gil Hedley:  (25:42) Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff in there, huh? Definitely. I would say when the Tao is lost, morality arises. Yeah, that's a little Tao Te Ching for you. I read it many times as a boy.   Tahnee:  (25:54) Yeah.   Gil Hedley:  (25:55) Man. I love the Tao Te Ching. I was like, "Wow, what's this all about?"   Tahnee:  (26:00) This idea I mean, because I have a little bit of a background in Chinese medicine too. I'm thinking like one thing, Paul Grilley who's a yin yoga teacher, I think you know him.   Gil Hedley:  (26:09) I know, Paul, he's pretty good.   Tahnee:  (26:11) Yeah, yeah. Well, he was talking recently about how one of his theories is that the fluid around the organs changes, and that gives rise to deficiency or access patterns and stuff. That makes sense when you're talking about the chemistry of the fluid. If it's altered by stagnation or by excess flow or whatever, getting flushed out too quickly, then we're going to end up with physiological effects from what had happened.   Gil Hedley:  (26:37) Absolutely.   Tahnee:  (26:39) Yeah, and then those manifest health symptoms and things, is that phenomenon visible in the fashion, not just in organs, obviously be it all through the body, right, that we'll be seeing this kind of stiffening?   Gil Hedley:  (26:51) Absolutely, I see. Well, what I call perry fascia I see as a fluid reservoir in our body. I like Peter Fritos word of a conduit. It's both a pathway as well as a reservoir. It's chemistry is dependent upon levels of hydration, which can be altered, but not only hydration, but the entire chemistry is altered by dehydration, right? You start to get you know, hydrogen bonding and cross fibre linking in the tissues that are designed to facilitate differential movement. When that happens, then at some level, the function is mitigated.   Gil Hedley:  (27:53) I don't know what percentage is required. I'm not saying dehydrated like cardboard, I'm saying like 2% of lack of fluidity and what does that do to the cells or the slipperiness of the tissue. When there's this level of drag generated mechanically throughout your body, how does that alter physiology? How does it alter movement? How does it alter mood or how does mood alter? It goes both ways, right?   Tahnee:  (28:24) Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so easy for us to be either or with these things. When you start to really look into them, it's always both, there's a great F. Scott Fitzgerald, quote, it's like, the sign of advanced intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time. It's one that we constantly have to remember where we because ... You try and conceptualise these things, and it's so easy to want to know the truth which and then realistically it's always both. We're physical beings, we're emotional beings, we're spiritual beings. We're all of these things at once. I mean that idea that you say of I guess just reclaiming the body as a positive kind of a thing because I think so much of our culture like movement practises are ... I see some of the stuff people are doing, especially on social media and it just seems like it's abuse. It's like we're flogging our bodies.   Gil Hedley:  (29:22) Oh yeah, for sure.   Tahnee:  (29:24) I mean, you have some movement practise of your own. Right? Or you speak to movement quite a bit like, is there a ...   Gil Hedley:  (29:34) I walk.   Tahnee:  (29:34) Well, I mean-   Gil Hedley:  (29:34) I usually walk when I'm on the telephone. At the moment, I'm plugged in, I hover over cadavers in uncomfortable positions for hours a day, tormenting myself. Then I come home and collapse on a soft gushy sofa and do four hours of admin on my computer. While we make popcorn and eventually relax by watching something on Netflix. I'm pretty much in the loop of-   Tahnee:  (29:57) Of life.   Gil Hedley:  (29:59) Earlier. By the way, I think F. Scott Fitzgerald must have been a Libra.   Tahnee:  (30:03) I'm a Libra, so maybe that's it.   Gil Hedley:  (30:06) You're a Libra? I'm also a Libra, like a triple Libra.   Tahnee:  (30:10) Oh, no, are you?   Gil Hedley:  (30:12) Yeah. I'm as Libra as they get. I'm a Venusian, they're like man are from Mars and women are from Venus. Gil is also from Venus.   Tahnee:  (30:21) This explains a lot though because you also have the poetry and the beautiful philosophical musings, which I think is a very Libran trait to always look at the beauty in everything.   Gil Hedley:  (30:30) That is very true.   Tahnee:  (30:34) There was something you actually said. No, I think he taught a workshop on it overseas. I think a friend of mine from England went, I think that's why I knew about it. It was Sex and the Sacred Heart. Is that something you did?   Gil Hedley:  (30:48) That was recently, yeah.   Tahnee:  (30:50) I was not there, but yeah. I think a friend of mine from England who I'd done one of Paul's training's with was in attendance.   Gil Hedley:  (30:55) Yeah. Jo Phee.   Tahnee:  (30:57) I love them.   Gil Hedley:  (30:58) I held a yin teacher training in Berlin, actually.   Tahnee:  (31:02) Yeah. She had a whole bunch of you though that were pretty next level guests.   Gil Hedley:  (31:05) Yeah. Robert Schleipe was there. Jupp Vaanderwall, John Sharkey, and there was a gentleman, an acupuncturist fellow who I didn't have the pleasure of meeting. He was gone by the time I arrived. But anyway, yeah, When Jo says come, you got to go.   Tahnee:  (31:23) For someone so teeny, she's definitely got a authority.   Gil Hedley:  (31:27) Yeah, well, Jo's been coming to my class for years. I figured I owe her.   Tahnee:  (31:31) Yeah. Look, I mean, she's a wealth of information and hardworking.   Gil Hedley:  (31:36) She's wonderful, wonderful teacher. Yes, so I did teach a workshop called Sex and Sacred Heart. It was a kind of an experiment. I was thinking I might tour that talk. I was trying to see could I actually teach a class without my computer and without an image from the lab, and just tell stories that use toys such so I did. I did twisty tie balloons.   Tahnee:  (31:59) Okay. I thought you might made ...   Gil Hedley:  (32:01) I made a giant clitoris and a giant penis, and we had a great time.   Tahnee:  (32:06) Well, because one of the things my Taoist teacher talks about is how the Heart is expressed in the head of the penis and the clitoris. That's one of his big things. He's like-   Gil Hedley:  (32:16) I believe him.   Tahnee:  (32:18) Yeah. All of his work is around sex is a healing practise instead of as something to be-   Gil Hedley:  (32:23) Wonderful.   Tahnee:  (32:24) Yeah, was that the name of what you were talking about? Basically?   Gil Hedley:  (32:27) Well, for me, I wanted to basically offer, have a frank discussion about sexuality that wasn't so reductionistic as well. It's like well, first let me share with you some of the basic anatomy of our sexuality that may be overlooked or misunderstood because people haven't gotten that Sex 101. I found the more I talk about it, the more I realised that folks really don't know anything at all about their sexual anatomy for starters. And that's understandable, it's just not around. Where it is being taught, it's very difficult to comprehend the dimensions, the dimensionality and relationships, the anatomical structures are poured over it for years.   Gil Hedley:  (33:15) I think I can offer, I can make those connections with people but then also to be like, "It's not about these body parts. It's nice to know that and to be able to meet and connect with the actual qualities of our parts intimate," as I call them, but also that ultimately good sex is a function of the Heart. Not everybody wants good sex, but if you look at some people just want trashy sex, whatever you want to say. That's fine too. I'm not the judge. But in our culture, at least in the American culture which is all I can really speak to, the disconnection that we spoke of earlier with regard to our religiosity actually produces its opposite in the culture with as much or greater strength.   Gil Hedley:  (34:11) So to the extent that you deny, suppress, repress, revile, hate, and control sexuality, you create the largest porn industry in the world because literally, the porn industry is a function of our religion in the same way that the devil it's himself is a creation. If you have a pure God, that's only love and you and you subtract anything else from that God, you build a devil, right? If you go to the Indian religions, Kali Maas, terrifying, and sexy, and murderous and terrifying. You know what I'm saying? So it's all wrapped up into one thing. It's a little more psychologically rich. Similarly, if you banish an aspect of the human body to a lesser status. You cut off your very experience of the human body at the waist, you will not know the fullness of your Heart.   Tahnee:  (35:21) Even at the shoulders, like so many people who are living from above the neck, right?   Gil Hedley:  (35:27) Absolutely. Not even in the head. They're actually above the head. It's too terrifying to even come into the body. If you just ask people to a number, "Where do you feel yourself to be?" There will be people who will put their hand over their head. They don't feel themselves to be inside their bodies. If you've actually judged the body to be dangerous or if the body is perceived to pose a moral risk to the soul or salvation or however you want to construct it, then you're going to have a very busy porn industry.   Gil Hedley:  (36:15) In the same neighbourhood, because it'll be right next to the church. So there'll be the church, and then there'll be the dirty movies shop, right? Because you can't part yourself from that. You can't divide your heart like that. So for me, the is heart sacred and it infiltrates every cell, makes up to every cell of my body, the capillary network infiltrates my below the waist as well as above, it's the same Heart. I can't believe that a kind creator God would would give me a zone one of my body that was forbidden somehow or that was somehow less than any other aspect of my body. My mouth can't say to my dick, "I don't need you," to crudely paraphrase, the Apostle Paul.   Tahnee:  (37:14) That might be the headline. Kidding.   Gil Hedley:  (37:19) Yeah. You might have an establishment coming. Just saying.   Tahnee:  (37:22) Same intention.   Gil Hedley:  (37:24) Yeah, it's like the eye can't say to the hand, "I don't need you." There's nothing, there's no part of a body that is a gift that is unwelcomed or dirty or doesn't belong. And once you actually embrace the whole of the body as a gift, then you could say, "Well, then I gotta unwrap it all. I have to be open to the potential, the entire potential of this form and not just part of it." If I fall down on my knees, and literally straightened my body up and cut my pelvis, the energy off of my pelvis, above the pelvis, it's a strange thing. It's a very strange thing.   Gil Hedley:  (38:10) I don't feel like that justly demonstrates gratitude to the gift of the whole body. I feel that kind of, then so we actually have a culture that's split on those lines, right? And you end up, because of that split, the spirituality, actually a kind of spirituality, that splits the body in two and considers part of it great, that part of it good. That kind of spirituality literally drives the negative and empty expression of sexuality in the culture, right, because then everyone who actually goes for it is like, "Well, this, this can't be that." They're just the other side of the coin. By bringing the heart or the idea of a sacred heart into the story of sexuality is to say that we can't split our hearts in two and expect ourselves to feel whole. The heart is no less present in your [inaudible] than it is anywhere else.   Tahnee:  (39:16) And I mean when you're... Because that's something I think I've heard you say that even the separateness of our bodies is something you've brought into question recently. Is that something? Have I understood that correctly? Because I've been thinking about I guess, again, looking from the Taoist perspective, and even some of the tantric practises , that sacred union has been transformational for people. I've certainly had that experience in my life where I've had the good and the bad sex, where part has been really healing and empowering. That's, I guess, my current relationship,. It is like a transcendental experience where you actually do sort of dissolve almost, then there's that experience of like meditation or altered states of consciousness.   Tahnee:  (40:15) I mean, that's what my experience has been when I've managed to kind of unify through sex. I think that's there's a reason that subjugated because that's very empowering. You don't want to be a part of a ... You become kind of less able to be controlled, I think, when that's a part of your experience, because if you think about advertising, and politics, and all of these things, they really come out of this, these ideas. I know we're getting into deep territory, but that's been my experience. I think about if I'm repressed, and suppressed, and afraid, and don't trust myself, and don't trust my power and my body, then I'm much more easy to control. It's an act of sovereignty and liberation in a way.   Gil Hedley:  (40:58) That's beautifully put, I love it.   Tahnee:  (41:01) Yeah, well, I'm getting there. So could you flush out that idea for me about because we're all so different, and that's something you mentioned before we got on, you've been in the lab a lot lately. You've been taking apart two bodies simultaneously, and recording it so people can actually see even side to side, we're different. This is something I literally have to hit people over the head with. You won't be able to assume the same shape on one side that you do in another side in a yoga class.   Tahnee:  (41:29) It might be minutely different, it might be vastly different. I think people think we kind of have like those butterfly prints you do it at school when you're a kid. We're like clone from side to side. But that's not how we grow to my understanding. We kind of spiral out. That fractal nature of us. We aren't perfectly symmetrical, and none of us are perfectly-   Gil Hedley:  (41:52) Very true.   Tahnee:  (41:52) Yeah, well, none of us a perfectly symmetrical, but then you're also saying that we're very similar. So can you explain what's going on for you there? What's that line of thinking?   Gil Hedley:  (42:02) Well, we got a head. I have a head, we both have a couple arms, most of us do, a couple of legs, some hairy bits here and there. That's kind of like the basic map, right? Then literally to a number, every one of us kind of is a spin on that basic format that we call the human body.   Gil Hedley:  (42:31) But when I think about the human body, I mean, I've thought about the human body for years and years and years now. I keep kind of shifting my idea of the human body. Now when I say the human body, I tend to include yours with mine. I tend to include all the bodies as the human body. There's this body of humans on the planet. There are many, many cells to it, right? This human body, We're actually, all those human body cells that we are are governed by the same sun, the same moon, the same stars, the same spinning planet. Those are the master glands and the master physiology of the whole human species. And believe me, when the sun throws some crazy ass cosmic rays at this planet, we behave differently. When the when the moon is full, we behave differently.   Tahnee:  (43:33) Luna speaks.   Gil Hedley:  (43:35) Yeah, exactly. Our skins are producing in response to the sun, everything, whether we're hungry or tired is based on the sun. You can't get off the planet. Just try, jump. See how far you get. You snap back down like a magnet. There's substance to the space between us. Just because it's not our, our sensory habit of perceiving the content or substance of the spaces that we imagine are between us in the same way that when I went to the lab at first, I didn't really expect the muscles to be connected to each other. I mean, I knew they were connected to the bones or something, but I thought there was kind of, I don't know, maybe some juice in between them.   Gil Hedley:  (44:42) I didn't expect it to be a facial connection. I didn't expect it to be a substantial connection. I was basically surprised and in denial of the connection I was witnessing. Isn't that true about all of us? Aren't we surprised and in denial of connections between us? Right? Such that we keep forcing our minds to imagine ourselves separate in spite of the intimacy of our mutual connection across the planet with one another, regardless of telecommunications or whatever. There's a substance that's a continuity that is the relationship of the whole human body on the planet.   Gil Hedley:  (45:32) I don't really need to even stop it there. Why stop at the human body? Why not just talk about the planetary body or the body of consciousness? Right? Then you can just include everything. Why not? Because I don't know, I don't really. I'm not really a big, big bang kind of guy. You know what I'm saying? I find that to be a very amusing story. Right. Whether it be true or not, I don't even care. But I just see it as, as a nice metaphor for connection really. Right? So if you do conceive of a beginning or of a beginning that was the end of something else or a new beginning that is a very concentrated mass of atoms without so much space in between them that that spread out, formed our universe and our bodies and our stars at the star dust.   Gil Hedley:  (46:34) If there's any truth to physics, the proximity of those generated a mutuality such that at a distance, they remain connected in their behaviours and in their substance, even electromagnetically or however else that happens. I don't really know. But just as a story, I'm willing to ramp that up at the macro level. I can easily extend the notion to our mutual connectedness. I also know that I can feel people at a distance. I don't automatically deny that experience. Any human can, with a little practise view remotely and extend their consciousness. So the the field of consciousness that we share may be our body, may be my body. I don't say that egotistically, but as just a simple fact of reality.   Tahnee:  (47:37) That's very yogic. Well, that's sort of the map I've learned of what Paul teaches is actually, where ideas and energy and form, but we're all the same thing all the time. It's just we choose to perceive ourselves this way right now.   Gil Hedley:  (47:59) It's not the worst choice in the world, it can be interesting.   Tahnee:  (48:06) If you do believe we chose it, then we chose it. There has to be a reason on some level that we're here for this experience. Again, ideas and stories.   Gil Hedley:  (48:16) Punishment. You're being punished. You've come to the earth because you suck.   Tahnee:  (48:22) I heard a spiritual teacher stay the other day. He said, "You've been very naughty. That's why you're here." And it made me laugh, and it was in the time of Coronavirus. I was like, maybe it's our great punishment or something   Gil Hedley:  (48:38) Yeah, I don't think so. I have sneakingly suspicious that we're not being punished.   Tahnee:  (48:45) Yeah, I mean, my partner and I talk about these things a lot. We both feel that, I've always used the analogy of like Super Mario. I had a little Gameboy when I was a kid and it's like, why am I putting myself through this? It's because I learn and I grow and I get better. It's that self-development that motivates my life and obviously motivates yours. It's like that constant curiosity and questioning. I think that's fun.   Gil Hedley:  (49:13) Yeah, some of us are cursed with that drive to grow. What is that about?   Tahnee:  (49:20) Maybe we did something naughty.   Gil Hedley:  (49:21) Yeah. We must have done something naughty.   Tahnee:  (49:24) I have one sort of last question that which is curious to me as a movement, as somebody who I guess practises yoga asana as well as other things. You talk a lot about textures and about feeling textures. I know like bodies. Actually, I have a couple of questions in here. So I know you do like fixed dissections and then also gooey ones, which Joe and I actually talked about last year when I saw her she was saying that she'd done, like the brain was just like a puddle. It was very different to a normal brain.   Gil Hedley:  (50:00) Very different. Yeah. It's moving. Why is it moving?   Tahnee:  (50:03) So this idea that because most of us, even if we've seen anatomical models, they've been quite fixed by the formaldehyde and that kind of processing that goes on. You work with bodies that are quite fresh sometimes. We are really just sacks to goo and space and water and stuff, right?   Gil Hedley:  (50:27) It's pretty well differentiated in there actually.   Tahnee:  (50:29) Okay.   Gil Hedley:  (50:31) Yeah, I guess I'm not a massive goo, but tubes of goo. Is that kind of ...?   Tahnee:  (50:38) Yeah, well, there is a very watery quality to the body that's not fixed. There's a very, well for lack of a better word, sort of chickeny quality, cooked quality to the fixed bodies. Neither of them really capture the, the true tone of the human form and its textures. There are advantages and disadvantages to studying both. That's why I like to do them both because they're complementary rather than one better than the other. I couldn't work for seven straight weeks on an unfixed body because it would be rotten by the end of it.   Gil Hedley:  (51:16) The decay is too rapid and the fixed bodies, if it's done well, you can read into them the properties of the unfixed body. So the textures that I'm feeling into also represent differences, right? I can extrapolate from textures that are slightly off differences that can be palpated in the living form, right? So although the textures might not be the same, there are relative differences conveyed to the living form, whether it be a fixed or a unfixed body. can I can make use of the donated forms, the models as I call them, to interpret and read into the living body in the same way that a good tracker can read into the hoof prints of an antelope herd and pick out the the young and the weak, and walk after those hoof prints. Sure enough, come upon the young and the weak that are worn out, that just lie down and then the Bushmen of the Kalahari, just they can just dinner is served.   Tahnee:  (52:40) Got served.   Gil Hedley:  (52:43) I basically consider myself a tracker. You know, I don't I don't take the track for the being, right? I don't mistake the track for the antelope, but I can learn a whole lot about the antelope from the track. I can learn a whole lot about movement dynamics, fluid dynamics, structure function from the track that is the deceased human body.   Tahnee:  (53:14) So this idea of then movement, it becomes more about experiencing or developing this ability to perceive the textures. Is that what you're kind of getting at when you talk about movement practise and bringing this stuff in? Because there is that sort of Taoist idea that junk kind of congregates at the joints. I guess being dense and less full of goo perhaps, maybe is where that idea is coming from on a physical level.   Gil Hedley:  (53:45) The joints are pretty full of goo too actually. I just had a handful of synovial fluid this afternoon and my hand. I was like, wow, this is serious goo.   Tahnee:  (53:55) I guess that's more goo than what I'm imagining, because I'm imagining if there's a fluid and then a junction that's gooier, you can imagine things getting trapped there as opposed to like moving through muscle tissue where maybe there's more blood, it's more dynamic, there's more access. In my body, I can feel that those movements have a different texture and I guess a different experience. Is that kind of what you're talking to? I guess I'm just trying to comprehend how I would experience texture in my body.   Gil Hedley:  (54:28) Touch, just grope around.   Tahnee:  (54:30) Just touch it.   Gil Hedley:  (54:32) Yeah, just touch it.   Tahnee:  (54:32) Yep. I've got some rope up here in my shoulders.   Gil Hedley:  (54:35) Well, exactly. That's exactly right. So it's like, oh, I feel some rope up there. What's moving or not moving their? Or oh, this is kind of mushy, no matter how hard I try and contract it. What's going on there? Or when I turn this way, I feel stiff. When I turn that way, I can keep going. What does that texture feel like or what does it mean to move from my bones or what does it mean to move from my deep fascia versus my superficial fascia or from my membranes? Can I actually ... Actually when you can begin to sort of get a sense of those textures in your movement. We see this in the sort of traditional movement arts around the planet. Someone who's doing Xing Yi is moving from their sinews, from their tendons, and their deep, deep fascia. Very different than someone who's practising Aikido or something, right? Or someone who's doing Kung Fu or Karate or Taekwondo.   Gil Hedley:  (55:51) Those all the martial arts are actually deep explorations and moving from different textural foundations in the body and exploring their power, and the individual's relationship to the movement potential of those different layers. I find that fascinating, and fun to explore. and easy to see. For me, from my vision when I'm looking at, I'm like, "Oh, wow, that's a real muscley movement I'm looking at there," or wow, I look at my friend Russell Malphite, who's a choreographer in London and man that dude is liquid, he's just moving. He enters into the, the fluid potential, the fluid surfaces that are inherent within his body, and then he projects that out into space for all of us to witness.   Gil Hedley:  (56:48) Your jaw drops and you're like, wow, how can that even be? How can a person move like that? With that as your mirror, it confronts your own movement way of being in the world. This is ethics, your own movement way of being in the world which may be conserved or stiff or held in textures that are more wooden. That might be conveying a wooden mentality or a wooden religiosity or disdain for your own sexuality so that you can't actually get a wave going through your spine or an infinity wave going through your pelvis because that would be judged as seductive or something. Yeah. So that's kind of what I'm getting at.   Tahnee:  (57:36) Yeah, we have a friend who's, his name's the Movement Monk. But he teaches just those explorations. When I was practising them, and I heard you speak to that, I thought about it, because I mean, practising a lot of Yin. You really feel like that deep fascia, those rebound kind of sensations, and that's something I think for me, in my eyes, I think I was, must be early 20s when I first practised Yin. It was such a visceral and distinct sensation versus like the muscular action I supposed I was used to from athletics and life, and even regular yoga. I feel like we've lost a lot of that, I guess kind of exploratory function in modern movement. So it's nice to feel like maybe it's coming back a little bit. Yeah, well, that's probably a nice place to wrap up. So thank you. I mean, I really appreciate you taking the time. You must be knackered. The Australian, I don't know if that's an American word. Very tired.   Gil Hedley:  (58:42) Yeah, it's a very American word. Knackered, we say that all the time. Yeah.   Tahnee:  (58:46) Yeah.   Gil Hedley:  (58:46) We say, "I'm wasted. I'm so tired. I'm wasted."   Tahnee:  (58:50) In Australia, that means you drunk too many beers.   Gil Hedley:  (58:53) Yeah, that means that here too actually.   Tahnee:  (58:56) Yeah, so thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.   Gil Hedley:  (58:59) Thank you, Tahnee.   Tahnee:  (59:00) Yeah, I'll put all the links to your work on our webpage so that people can find you. But do you want to just rattle off your website for us? GilHedley, right?   Gil Hedley:  (59:10) Www.GilHedley.com, G-I-L-H-E-D-L-E-Y dot C-O-M. There's tonnes of free stuff there. So enjoy it.   Tahnee:  (59:16) Yeah.   Gil Hedley:  (59:17) Yeah.   Tahnee:  (59:17) Also you're on YouTube, you've got your famous fuzz speech, which I know you've probably copped a lot slack about it.   Gil Hedley:  (59:23) Very kind to not ask me for a whole hour about the fuzz speech.   Tahnee:  (59:27) I figured you've probably been there and they'll be stuff out there about it.   Gil Hedley:  (59:32) Yeah. It's not a problem. I'm happy to speak to that anytime. But actually I do on my website, if you join it, which involves putting your email down. I won't email you back unless you have beg me to, basically I have three free full length video courses that amount to about 16 hours of teaching an on camera dissection. That'll give you my learning curve over the years and a whole lot of cool content, then I put that up there, especially for you Australians, because-   Tahnee:  (01:00:02) I know. I've been dying to come for years.   Gil Hedley:  (01:00:06) I always feel bad. I mean, I'm honoured that the Australians come to my courses. They're always like, "When are you going to come to Australia?" I'm like, never. Just do that.   Tahnee:  (01:00:16) The logistics must be difficult to arrange a cadaver in another country.   Gil Hedley:  (01:00:20) It is. Yeah. I'm so busy with what I'm doing now that I'm not really looking to-   Tahnee:  (01:00:26) Yeah, expand in that way.   Gil Hedley:  (01:00:27) Multiply, multiply the number of times, the number of weeks I spend in the lab each year.   Tahnee:  (01:00:33) But don't worry we come to you.   Gil Hedley:  (01:00:35) Thank you.   Tahnee:  (01:00:35) Australians like travelling.   Gil Hedley:  (01:00:37) I'll be coming to you because all this stuff that I've been doing in the lab, I'm basically shooting footage for a massive online course.   Tahnee:  (01:00:45) Yeah, awesome.   Gil Hedley:  (01:00:45) Yeah, that'll take people-   Tahnee:  (01:00:46) Is there a timeline for that, Gil, in terms of ... Do you have a ...?   Gil Hedley:  (01:00:51) Give me a year, about a year, maybe less. I mean, the stuff on my website, I give away and it was just so I could learn how to make a website that could contain this massive thing that I'm building. Right now, we're shooting it. So there's a whole lot of other levels to making good education than just shooting the excellent video. I want to have it be flushed out as a whole course of study into the human body that's not exclusively laboratory based, but that has other elements to it as well in terms of exercise and exploration that can facilitate folks all over the world having a totally different experience to what it means to learn anatomy.   Tahnee:  (01:01:37) Yeah, I think that for me is such a gift. I mean, I'm sure I'm speaking for other people, but to not have to go through a traditional route to learn this stuff. I was looking at do I go back and do another degree and study. I'm like, I'm not going to learn what I want to learn as well. So that's really amazing we have these kind of independent options. That's something I can't imagine how much work that's been for you at the backend. So very grateful. Thanks.   Gil Hedley:  (01:02:11) I can't even tell you. I can't even tell you.   Tahnee:  (01:02:13) I mean, look, we sell herbs in a country and it's hard enough, I can't imagine what it's like moving tissue around. Yeah. I've heard some stories over the years of what you've jumped through. It's always impressed me. Anyway, on behalf of anyone out there who's listening, thank you. Yeah, I'll see you one day when the Coronavirus ends and the world is open again.   Gil Hedley:  (01:02:37) I look forward to it, Tahnee.   Tahnee:  (01:02:39) With existential experience.   Gil Hedley:  (01:02:39) Yeah.   Tahnee:  (01:02:42) All right. Thanks, Gil. Have a beautiful afternoon.   Gil Hedley:  (01:02:44) You're welcome. You too. Bye bye.

"I believe in timing. When the conditions are suddenly right and you have to go along with it RIGHT THEN or risk losing the momentum all together. You can’t force a Tedious Day. Trust me. I’ve tried. You have to embrace one instead because they arrive impromptu with an invitation. Most days you want to say no but today…oh, today, I said yes! And with everything I checked off my list, I felt like I could breathe. I felt forward movement. It was a way to give myself something to look forward to because all I had to do was check things off the list. I kept asking myself, what are the things I don’t want to carry into tomorrow?"Today's Self-Care Prompts:Create a "Tedious Tasks" ListLiked this episode? You'd also love:026: Your Entryway Into Self-Care035: What Are Your Self-Care Buckets?043: What's Your Risk Level?Let’s be pen pals at hello@dionneandselfcare.comDownload a digital magazine filled with unconventional self-care tips at www.dionneandselfcare.comP.S. You're doing great!Support the show (http://bit.ly/SelfCareDiaryTipJar)

Welcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast each week we expose the faulty foundational mindsets of the past and rebuild the newer, stronger foundation essential in creating your meaningful legacy. We've got a lot of work to do. So let's get started.As much as you like this podcast, I'm certain that you're going to love the book that I just released on Amazon, fuel your legacy, the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. I wrote this to share with you the experiences that I had while I was identifying my identity, how I began to create my meaningful legacy and how you can create yours. You're gonna find this book on Kindle, Amazon and as always on my website, Sam Knickerbocker calm.Welcome back to do your legacy. today. We have a great friend of mine on Sean Christiansen and I actually met him at an event that I was speaking at and I hadbeen in contact with a few different people who have done similar things hypnosis, and neuro linguistic programming I've actually participated in as a client and learned how to do certain levels of it for for my clients in that. So when Imet him, I was like, I want to one, I have them on my podcast because we need more hypnotists on our podcast, but to want to know, kind of the ins and outs there. So we've met a few times, and I'm just excited to have bring him now to you. So you can share one of the benefits, how this has helped him and kind of where he sees this going for his life and then the future and how it's connected to his latency. Fair enough. Sure. Yeah. Sounds good. Awesome. Well, with that, john, go ahead and share with us your history and feel free to take as long as you need, right. Short of don't take don't take forever actually. But yeah, take take some time and let us know exactly. The storyline of how you came to where you are and became who you are today. Okay, cool. SoSo, I guess it starts back in high school when I was studying psychology in high school, I was studying at Dixie High School at St. George. And I was studying hypnosis, studied psychology. And in one of the classes, we had hypnotist, come to our class. And he said, you can cut therapy into a third of the time, because you get to the root of the problem. I thought, Oh my gosh, that's so cool. That's what I want to do. So I started studying hypnosis and everything that I read was right. He said that you can get through the problems. At the time. I thought that's what I that's definitely what I want to do. So I became a hypnotherapist. First out of high school. I was reading as many books as I could. And then I went to an academy up in Salt Lake called the academy for life management where I studied hypnotism and became a certified hypnotherapist, which is what we could call ourselves back at that time in 2003. It was illegal to call yourself a hypnotherapist. Now it's not unless you have a mental health certification. Anyway, so I went to school became certified, I opened up an office called the Alpine hypnosis center andHello, and I opened that in 2003. And I did that there until about 2017 I must say, back in 2004 I became a stage hypnotist. I started washing station with this and thought that is really cool. That's what I want to do. So I joined this hypnotist up in Salt Lake for a couple years, mentored under him, started doing my own shows. And then I rebranded myself as was called the hypno hick. So, that's kind of a fun, fun little thing. And so I've kept that name for for, gosh, 15 years now. So anyway, so yeah, I've I was, I've been hypnotic for a long time. And in the meantime of that, I suppose still was doing one on one sessions with clients and got really interested in forensics hypnosis, so I started studying forensics hypnosis got certified in that in 2014. I also became certified as an instructor for the National Guild of hypnotists, where I can certify other people to become hypnotist as well. So that's kind ofbackstory in the meantime of all of that I've always wanted to be a public speaker. So that's kind of what I'm doing now. That's my next goal in life is, is to start doing those and doing retreats and, and workshops and all that kind of stuff. That's incredible. So I'm curious what and because I also says psychology and I thinkit's fast it's just fascinating really that we bothhad a similar goal How can we do this faster? So when when I was going through a psychology school, I was like, this does not sound fun, like sitting there listening to people's problems over and over and over.Not resolving them what and it just that's what it seems like to me most therapists do. Don't take offense if you're a therapist. I'm not trying to brag on you. But that's just that's my experience. I am I think there's value there. I went to therapists for many years of my life and I think that there's nothing wrong with going to a therapist for that purpose. ButThere does come a point in time where you maybe want something more effective or to actually heal that trauma. Why do you think it is? Because most people are going to hear about hypnotherapy or hypnosis at some point during psychology classes as part of education. Why do you think some people will gravitate towards another be right now? I don't want to do that. If it's that much more effective, why is it not being more widely used? I think we will have a big fear about what hypnosis is, and a misconception of what it is and what it can do.I was actually talking to a master psychologist who is out of Salt Lake who's now a hypnotist. And what he was taught to do was, they have to diagnose the problem, right? That's their big job is okay, you're telling me your issues. I've got to diagnose something, because they work in this corporation where a psychiatrist cannot prescribe medication. And so now it says, Oh, this is going to take seven or 10 years to get over. Where hypnosis is not like that hypnosis is let's get you in. My goal is to help you go out and beyond.Your own for this one for three, four or five sessions, and we're done.So I think that there's just kind of that that old mentality of, Oh, this is going to take a long time you've been diagnosed with this issue so that we're gonna talk about it. As far as in class or in high school, I don't know why some people gravitate towards it. And some people don't I, I just want I just knew that's what I want to do. So there was there was no question. That's fascinating. So with this diagnosis, saying this is, I mean, there's so many layers deep here, and depends on how deep we want it to go. How political we want to go. Sure. I'm not saying we have to go all that all the way down the rabbit hole, but I think it's a good rabbit hole to at least acknowledge, and that isthe concept of diagnosis. So they're one of the things that I found in psychology that,again, don't take offense to these examples. These are super stereotypical, I understand that. But it's like a girl cop. Right? A female cop has something to prove that she's tough enough that she's able to do it in the military to a femaleleaders in the military, they've got something to prove that they can be just as good as a man in those roles. And in the, in the medical industry. For a long time, like, almost centuries, psychology was looked at as like quack medicine, like crack science, it wasn't actually science. And so, from my perspective, this is just my own education. And what I saw, there was this push inside of the psychologydepartments and field to push towards a more quote unquote, scientific based, they were diagnosed with this, this was the problem, right? Way of recording things so that they could be accepted by the grid, greater medical community, because they just weren't getting accepted. And so, to me, it seems like theif you're worried about being accepted as like a medical doctor and having the credentials not that, then it almost it lives.You in the ability to really use all of yourtools because only certain tools are looked at as effective from the medical journey perspective, especially when it comes to diagnosis, which then turns into psychiatry, which then turns into pharmaceuticals, which then turns into where the money is coming, which is whyif you want to get paid, I mean, I know a lot of psychologists don't get paid very much, because they don't get paid very much unless they have pharma behind them. That's right, this again, this is my experience.So you can crucify me online or whatever you want to do, but like this is it this is my belief system from what I studied. I was I went to school for psychology to sound like I didn't participate to one degree or another in this. This is just was my observation and ultimately why I left because I wanted to find out how do I help somebody faster thanthis diagnosis. Now you have a DD and you're ruined for the rest of your life like nowRight, what percentage of the population doesn't have a DD? What's wrong with it? It's a Okay, how can we use that to benefit a person and look at it as a gift rather than not? That's my perspective. But I found after going through psychology, neuro psychology, biochemistry, and which I want to get into some levels of that when it comes to like, why hypnosis works, but down to Sociology, for me, I found the most effective way to shortcut somebody so was to not have it become a problem and teach them how money works. Because, statistically, most of the social issues that therapists are seeing their clients for our result of lack of money, or our co existence in a home where there's lack of money, understanding how money works, it's a cause but that's hard to prove. But high correlation, high correlation between the two. And so that's why I'm in finance. You You have the same objective, how do we shortcut this successful healing of this, and you went into hypnosis and there wereWhat are your thoughts though on on from that perspective, why they why they're pushing for diagnosis. I think it's just how it's been done forever since Freud is like we, we just want to do this. And so they're just following the tradition. That's the way grandfather and great grandfather and everybody else before then did it. So that's all they really know. Except for I believe that the insurance companies and the pharmaceuticals are working together to make this all happen. Soso so again, from my perspective, again, going to the psychologists that I went to therapists, isn't kind of the objective, that this is the irony that I find in the industry, and it probably happens in my life all the time. So you can call me out on as well, but like the objective of a good therapist, from my perspective, okay, I can use this word a lot in the sentence. From my perspective, the objective of the therapist is to help me see a new perspective. Like they're professionals, hopefully at helping me see a new perspective of an event.And yet, it seems so hard for them to accept a different perspective on their life. It'sIt's a weird irony I don't understand like you go and try and talk to a therapist about them right now. That's not how it works. Like,you're so closed off that you're the only way that it could be right? How Why should I trust you to educate me on a new perspective of my life, when you can't even see a different perspective on your own life? I think that's a huge, huge, huge issue is people who become therapists do it for either the money or because they think you're gonna help people, right? Problem is, is they don't go through their own crap growing up and going through their own stuff. So how can they help somebody if they've never been through it? So people become a famous psychologist that they don't have their own family. So exactly what we're saying is they don't have their own stuff together. Right. So I do believe that people need to go through their own stuff. That's what makes a really good therapist. Yeah, I hundred percent agree. That's That's interesting. So now I'm curious and maybe you have the answer. MaybeI think you would, but at what point like what changed in society that you used to be able to call your self and hypnotherapist, but now you can't unless you have extra credentials. So what changed? Why did they start making a distinction? Again, because this is the separation between the quack and the credential. So what what changed in our economy and society in medical environment that demanded that change? So, the big talk about it is that the psychologists and psychiatrists were upset that they were calling themselves therapists when we haven't gone to as much schooling as they did. So why can you call yourself a therapist if you go to hypnosis?That's the biggest reason is they don't want to compete with us. We can help people change so fast to get there. Now we're taking their clients. It could be a conspiracy theory as to why that's happening. I don't know. But that's that's what I've heard. And that makes sense to me. Well, somebody wise once said, The ultimate Sufis that simplicity is the ultimate sophistication sometimesI think you can tell somebody that truth right now can't be that easy. Probably is that easy. I want to believe something that's stupid, simple and like, oh, that actually like, that's a logical it's an idiotic move, but it's logical like that, that makes sense based on human emotion based on ego based on these principles of like humanity. That actually makes sense. Now us trying to explain all these other justifications of why we did something that sounds like a big chain of justification so that you don't know why we did it. We're that's what that sounds like. So that's funny. So with all of your education, and what have you found to be the most enjoyable part of hypnosisso two parts of the business right so that the therapeutic side or the healing side or the whatever you want to call it side, right, the one on one client side and then I also have the the comedy stage hypnosis and they both have benefits for two completely different reasons. One is I love entertaining. That's been my whole background is I love entertaining people and I love to create an experience for people. So that's actuallyThe new business couldn't call the shots versus an experience because that's what I want to create.And that's enjoyable to make people laugh. But then you have the other side, which is when you're helping somebody to overcome something. And the cool thing about hypnosis, you can see instant change, or they wait, they open their eyes. They're like, Oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. And so they just had this instant gratification. Now, here's an example. I worked with a 12 year old wrestler, and he was competing or comparing himself to his brothers. So he was doing kind of poorly in wrestling, he hadn't even won a match. And so I worked with him one session, and I got a message from just a little while ago saying, Hey, man, thank you very much for helping me I took second statefor wrestling so so those kind of things you can't you can't get by working the nine to five Walmart job, right? With my groceries or whatever, right? And maybe, if that's your if that's how you receive fulfillment, sure, I'll challenge you on everything.I think there's right or wrong butYeah, I think that that's where are you getting your format and so from you for you, you get your fulfillment from being able tohear those success stories of like, how much somebody changed or how much that success happened or in the form of laughter, enjoyment, and almost a relaxation, and letting go of characters, the things that stress us out on our own basis. Sure. Yeah. That's awesome. For me, it's very similar. I come to work. And I love seeing somebody who's like, super depressed about their financial situation. Because I'm confident most of the time that by the time I'm done working with them, they're gonna be smiling and like, now I know where I'm going. Now. That's an exciting thing. I love it that that Penny drop is the same that I experienced when I was on a church mission. teaching about Jesus Christ isn't the same moment because the same is ultimately in my mind. It's the same transformation, whether we're talking about Christ, or whether we're talking about money, or whether we're talking about health or success, but it's the it's the recognition that that you are wortha better life. That's the recognition and once you recognize that you're worth better life because of you. That's the penny that stops whether that's your worth a better life. So you believe in Jesus Christ, you work better lives, you spend your money more intentionally, you're worth a better life. Because you're no longer comparing your your success to your brothers and wrestling. It's your worth something. And once they recognize that they have worth that once that Penny drops, that's a beautiful thing for me. In my experiences, it's a really good way to look at it like that.I think so, too.I'll pat myself on the back for that one. Yeah, um, sowhat were your biggest naysayers when you're going through this process of getting educated on on hypnosis and how that works and building a career out of it? What were your Who are your biggest naysayers and how did you overcome them? And I would say, Who are your naysayers today? Because I'm sure that happens. People every time you get on stage, I don't believe in hypnosis. There's always somebody in every crowd that way. So howDo you deal with Mesa Arizona? Gotcha. Okay, so back to when I first started hypnosis in Utah, right was your against the commandments? Yes.Right against the Book of Mormon right so so there's there was a lot of issues when I first got started in this and i would i would come up against a lot of walls but there was that burning. I gotta do this I know it's helpful people are just have a lack of education of what hypnosis is right? hypnotism sounds like mysticism which sounds like whatever else, right? So so people are assuming that it's this stuff that you can't do. But there's a whole scientific principle behind hypnosis. Once people learn that it's like, oh my gosh, this makes a lot of sense. And so we go in and out of it all the time, right seven times a day worried at most instruments, or longer or at least, and it's different for every hypnotist. But yeah, we spend a lot of our time in a state of hypnosis, right or a trance. So anyway, so once they're educated, it helps. The biggest problem is back in the day90s prior to the 90s, and then early 2000s is the stage hypnotists were very, very dark, and I'm in control of you, blah, blah, blah, right? So I wanted to give it a different feel. And so once I started empowering people from the stage that opened up a whole new realm, a lot of artists are doing that now. Because now it's like, oh, this is a power thing. And no, it's not crazy weird. So that's helped open the doors for me to be able to do a lot of schools and fairs and corporate events, because I get a good feeling. Right? So that's kind of shifted the mentality. I'm not saying I did it by myself, because the whole the whole community kind of kind of shifted at that at that time. So that's the first that's the first part. My biggest naysayer was my mom. She I was working in the corporate world, I manage restaurants and before I became a hypnotist, I was a flight attendant. So I did that for for six years. I did not know that about him. So when I knew things, so I was flying a lot and I started doing shows and so I would have to call in sick so I could go do it.Show. And so I kept doing that. Well, the CEO of the company, I actually hypnotized their sister, and help help them lose weight and it worked. And so I called the CEO of the airlines. And I said, Hey, I are the airline that your work. Yes, I intentionally skipping out. Yes, yes, yes. So I called her and I said, Hey, just so you know, I'm at this point in my life, and I really want to do this. I just don't know if I can do it full time. I don't want to do I'm out of sick time. I have no more love. And she was so cool. She says, Why don't you take the month of August off and see how it goes and will keep your keep your stats, secure insurance, all that kind of stuff. And then if it works, great, then you can quit. And if not, then you come back and super cool. So I did. And it was like the next couple of days. I got phone calls. I ended up booking seven fares that year. And so I called her back and I said, Yeah, I gotta quit. So I wouldn't finish the month of September. Often I was in 2006. And then I quit airlines and so on.So it's kind of funny, because think about it now because now you're like 15 fairs a year in August, but it was seven was like the big thing. So I was super excited than ever before. That's so cool, I think. So I want to go back to something you said, because I think this matters in literally every aspect of our life. And that is that the objective matters. And if you recall, we said it was looked down upon primarily because people were doing they're toying with it, unfortunately, often.stuff is is ridiculed and thought against before it becomes widely accepted. Andno, often, often, often, often, the initial adopters of a new thing, are people who are out there and maybe don't always have the best intentions, it is what it is sure. Once it becomes more widely accepted, then we start seeing people come in to a field with better intentions and say, Okay, how can we use this better and, and that's just what you described.people out there who are using different forms of language and programming with hypnosis, hypnosis, I'm happy to explain what hypnosis is from the, the, the medical perspective here in second, like the actual what's going on scientifically. But once you understand and it was more widely understood what is actually happening, then we can have more application of the principle because now we're understanding the principle we're not just a few people doing random things, but we we understand that principle we can control, there's more control, because now we can see actually results from principle. And then we can start using it for good. And you have the opportunity to do that with literally anything in your life. If you're a mom, if you're folding clothes, if you have children, you've got to be able to reframe things. It's got it's the same thing, the same things happening the same process, same scientific thing is happening. You it would be in your best interest to learn how to reframe things in a positive, helpful loving light serving lightbecause that's thehelps you accomplish more in life and gain greater persuasion and influence around those around you. So I love that the idea of just changing something, Nick, that was previously negative, and making it positive gossip, I have a friend, go check out his web site at his website, but definitely Facebook. But his his brand is called gossip for good, likegossip is just sharing information. It's just going on and talking about things that you've heard about that may or may not actually be true.But you can gossip about other people and negative things and judgment and kind of condemnation. You can gossip about all that or you can go gossip about all the good things that are happening in life. It's up to you what you choose to gossip about gossip is not inherently bad. It's what you choose gossip about. Yep, exactly. And so now, it doesn't last very long. So when we got to 30 minutes, but um, soAnyways, go ahead and explain more of like the scientific because I think there's going to be people on here like, Oh yeah, the church still says it's bad to be hypnotized.And it's just a lack of clarity of what hypnotism is. And unfortunately, it'sit's highly emotionally attached words to stuff that actually isn't there. So then they hear the word hypnosis, hypnosis or hypnotist, and they react to the word because of all the meaning that they've attached to it over their lifetime rather than what is reality. So they're living off in their own fictitious Fantasyland which, if you're happy, there areno business falling out, but you're going to listen to this, don't judgethis until you actually know what it is I would be my my invitation to you. So go ahead and explain what that is and what's actually happening for scientific, more scientific level. So the basis of hypnosis, the long definition is hypnosis is an altered state of consciousness.While you bypass the critical factor of thinking so that you become hyper suggestible. What does that mean? So we'll break down the three parts being in an altered state of consciousness, altered state of consciousness. Basically they hook the little electrodes up to your brain but the EEG machine, they can measure your brainwave cycles, just like a heartbeat. They mentioned the brainwave cycle. So the first brainwave cycle in consciousness is called a beta brainwave state. And just to be clear, just, this is all electrical impulses, correct? Yes. Okay, just so just so you guys know, this is electricity. He didn't come up with this hypnosis didn't come up with this. We found a way to label it and we terminate. We use the term hypnosis to define this process. dewpoint Okay. Okay, so now, in that beta brainwave state, we're paying attention, somebody megahertz, I don't know the exact megahertz or how many cycles it's going per minute or whatever that is, I don't know that. But basically, it's moving pretty fast. So then you start paying attention to something and then you enter into what's called an altered state of consciousness. So the first level would be called health.A brainwave state or what is called Daydream, right? In normal terms, when you're driving down the street, or you're doing the dishes, and all sudden you kind of go away. The subconscious mind takes over it does an activity that constantly starts to think about something else, you enter the Daydream state. That's the first level of hypnosis or an altered state of consciousness. When you talk to yourself, you're also in that same brainwave state. Then you enter into another dependency a little bit deeper called a theta brainwave state theta is more like when you're driving down the street, you go past your ex, and you don't know where you've been for 10 minutes, or you're reading a book and you get to the bottom of page completely forget what you just read. That's another state. Right? Then you have delta which is a little bit deeper. And this is more likeit's more like when you get phone call him tonight, you talk to somebody hang up the phone and you need to remember who you talk to. or teenagers nowadays that wake up one morning that texted somebody the night before with texting. So this amnesia starts to happen in that in that brainwave state. These are all normal natural states. This isn't just hypnosis, this is normal activity. Sure, then you have the deeper level.Which is called somnambulists, some symbolism is when you can kind of fool with the senses. That's when we can lessen pain. Or if you watch a state show, you can have somebody eating I know that he gets an apple, they have zero physiological signs, what's going on. So that's that's kind of a deeper level. Now there's all sorts of levels in between those states. Those are just the basics of how the brain was working. Now in hypnosis, there's four basically four ways how to get somebody into that trance. Okay? So that's the altered state of consciousness. Now what happens you start to bypass the critical factor thinking critical factor thing is your program. basically telling you who you are, who you are, or who you are, who you aren't what you can what you can do. Soif I'm working with a weight loss client, everybody knows that it takes two things to lose weight, which is diet and exercise, right? If I change my diet, eat less exercise more like burn more calories, and I consume I should lose weight. That's the theory right now. I'm gonna say there's everybody thinks they know that or they know that and it's not true.And and then we get wound up in it. Yeah, but yeah, But sir, I really likeChocolate cake or Yeah, but I like cookies were Yeah, but it's the holidays are Yep. But mom, here's where the programming comes in. Yeah. But mom always said I gotta finish my claim because they're starving kids wherethey're starving kids in Africa or Ethiopia. Right?Right. So So then we have that programming based on that. And then that's where hypnosis comes in. We put them in an altered state of consciousness to reprogram that.Well, people think that in that state, you can become have mind control, right? It is not mind control, because you still have that moral and ethical code that no matter how deep and endless you go, I can't break that. You can be conditioned, granted rights. For those of you who are really studying this stuff, you can be conditioned for mind control, but just hypnosis of itself cannot create mind control for you to do something you would want to do spike Have you into deep levels of hypnosis and I said I want you to go rob a bank he didn't want to.Now I think I think that again, this is just from my experience, so you have different experience. Fantastic for you. Mostpeople that I know who don't like it gnosis from a,from a religious context. They don't like it because from their perspective, you're surrendering control of your bodyand you should be in control and they have this deep religious belief thatthe whole purpose of this planet is to gain control of our body, and I would actually 100% agree with them from the whole purpose of this plan is to be in control of your body. Learning to control your body is another conversation though. How many things did somebody else have to show you before you learned how to do it? Did somebody help you tie your shoes? Did somebody help you put your clothes on somebody help you learn how to put your underwear on, or put your glasses on or brush your teeth all those things somebody did for you to you.Before you ever did them for yourself and you changing your diaper pro baby learning how to eat all these things. Somebody else did those for you before you can do it for yourself. SoYou are going to abide by double leaf that allowing anyone else to control your body is a grave sin and a rejection of your your holy people that you follow for me, for me, it's Jesus Christ. And it's all right for me, I don't say that blasphemous Lee, I'm trying to give you permission to believe whatever you want, right? I have deep beliefs as well. But if you're gonna abide by that, then we have to be able to apply principles across the board. So stop taking care of your children, stop helping them do anything, stop driving them around, stop doing anything for them, that's not in them choosing to do it and see how well you like life. I think you're going to quickly agree that sometimes it's better to have somebody show how to do something first or to be taught how to do something. Definitely don't send your kids to school. You wouldn't want that. Okay, so like, the reality isa good hypnosis, good hypnotist that I that I've seen. They are helping you there.are facilitating somethingby your choosing. They're facilitating it. Right? They aren't walking around hypnotizing people without. It's not like Disney where he's like, watch this clock.Okay, that's what's going on guys. So, one you are choosing into an experience to learn something to better yourself, number one, number two, once you understand how a lot of this stuff is,well, can you once you understood it, and you've practiced it, how difficult is it for you to use principles? Maybe not full on hypnotize yourself, but use principles of hypnosis, in your everyday life? All the time.myself as well. So the point the point of that question is,this isn't about somebody else, always doing this. Good hypnotism is about teaching and educating you how to do this yourself for yourself. It's about gaining more control of your body until you understand this. You'reare actually in the control of everybody else who understands this and is doing this with your media, your music, your TV, your books, it talks about mass hypnosis across the planet. It's happening. And if you aren't aware of it,it's only hurting you and your family. Right? So in with what you do you do a lot of finance stuff, right? So people who are let's say they're stuck at a $45,000 a year $30,000 fixed as much doesn't matter. Remember, right. So now they are programmed to think that's how much they make, right? So let's use $40,000 a year in example, somebody a $40,000 a year employee salesman, let's use a salesman for example.Their picture their internal dialogue, their thought process is that $40,000 a year right so that first three quarters they could kick tail and really make that that money, but their program is on $40,000. So now the last quarter, they start to tail off and that's what they make the next for that year is 40,000. Or the opposite is true. They may struggle for the first two or three quarters or whatever of the year.And then all of a sudden they'll ask you to kick it in gear again. And guess what? They're back at 40,000 it's the pictures they create in their money to self hypnosis, it's the exact same thing we're doing. So when we get stuck in that back to your control statement is they feel out of control. I don't know how to control this. I don't know how to change this smokers weight loss. I don't know how to fix this, or I need somebody else to help me get over that because the blind spot is right and proper ourselves. So you're exactly right. It is self hypnosis and we do it all the time. So let's uh, I love joining two forms, I thought and forcing them like just smashing them together. And religion as an easy one to because it's so especially in our society. It's so ingrained and everywhere I go, I'm not religious. I'm atheist, dude, that's a religion. In case you didn't know you have faith that nobody's there watching and nobody cares. Like, just because you've chosen to have faith in the non existence of being itself faith. So Ihate to burst your bubble, but youYou're just as religious as the rest of us just with a different religion, okay? football can be a religion, eating could be religion, religion is almost synonymous with ritualistic behavior. And there you go with a little theology. That's religion, but that's over simplistic as well. But with this, what is the contrast for this or this synonymous ism of prayer, daily prayer or repentance and meditation slash hypnosis?Hmm, good question. Um,the second part of the meditation hypnosis, a lot of people don't think they're the same. And they are the brainwaves are the exact same. The difference is in meditation, you're trying to clear your mind with hypnosis, you're going to same brainwave states, you're just giving yourself something to think about and focus on. That's the only difference right? You're giving yourself suggestions and safe access for us in hypnosis, religion and prayer. I've not done the studies. My guess is the brainwaves going to the same alpha or beta or theta brainwaveState right? You're you're creating visualization when you're asking Heavenly Father to to do something for us or to pray toGod just right so so let's say people ask people go to Heavenly Father and they and they ask for things. So it's like asking like this big Santa Claus in the sky asking for stuff. That's what a lot of people think of God as good as he can be in every day. I'm very, very, very spiritual. I connect with God on a daily basis and chat with him all the time. So you can be doing that when you're doing the dishes to plug yourself in and talk to talk to God. I'm so what's the difference between the two between prayer and meditation hypnosis? I don't know that there really is because you're still creating visualizations come from the subconscious mind. And just just, again, keep in mind that you have a conversation with me and we're actually talking about me trying to help you believe in God. This this comes out very differently. I'm just to help I have a healthy amount of skepticism, and I'm okay. Changing there.Yes, okay, so keep in mind that that's the position I'm coming from, don't be offended, like, oh God, Sam does believe in God. Now he does. But from my perspective,prayer could also be identical to what he said, from the perspective of when he was describing hypnosis and surpassing your critical thinking. The moment that you give up control, give up your critical thinking aspect and say, Look, I obviously can't figure this out my critical thinking no longer can accomplish whatever it needs to accomplish. I'm going to sidestep my critical thinking, put all of my faith in God. Okay, now we're going to this more perfect version of ourselves,which is ultimately our subconscious, our, or I would say, our value system, right? The part that doesn't really get hypnotized our morals values, we're going to our idealistic morals and values and asking our version of what our idealistic morals and values are to suggest what behavior we should continue to perform. And it's the same processwe're eliminating critical thinking by using a placeholder of God or Jesus Christ or Allah or whatever you call him, Jehovah, whatever you call them. Buddha, you can call whatever you want, okay? But it's it's a, it's a sidestep of critical thinking going into something that for all intents and purposes, nobody's been able to empirically prove that this person exists. So we're sidestepping that with the intention of connecting deeper with our subconscious and our AI, our morals and our values so we can become better and change our habits change our circumstances change our reality. That's my death. Like, if I was to define prayer, that's what I think is happening from a more scientific explanation.I think it's the same. You're self hypnotizing yourself, every time you're praying. Ideally, that's deep dude. And if you're not praying, and here's theHere's the worst part about it. If you decide well I don't need prayer and you get rid of prayer then what are you doing to better yourself? How At what point in your day are you self hypnotizing yourself to be better if you're if you decide you don't believe in God?What What else are you using to sidestep the critical thinking portion of your, your being?That's thosethat maybe I just want to do that as a way my mind thinks. And I think it's important because knowing that gives you so much more power to create, it gives you so much more power to determine what it is that you actually want out of life. And, and again, move past a lot of this crap that we hold ourselves accountable for, which is why we have anxiety, depression, all these things we're holding on to stuff that's really not ours to hold on to.And, yeah, what you, you say if you get rid of prayer to better youTwo litres of water for who? For what reason? There's no point right? What is better because there's no good or bad if you're not believing in,in higher power. So from what society says it's good and bad now. Yeah, I said, See, I don't know, I still think I still think there's a best of me and me as based on how good How good how successful on my at Korea, okay, so this goes back to a deeper religious belief that I hold that the purpose of this planet is to become like an infinite creator. Now you can call him God, you can call him whatever. But our purpose on this planet, as far as I'm concerned, is to learn how to create the way we saw other people creating.And if that's my goal, then although there's no good or bad again, it's just like hypnosis. You could use the principle for a good outcome or a bad outcome. The goal is how good are you at creating intentionallybecause that isIf any promise is real, that we are going to become like God, and thenwe got to learn how to become like God at some point. And that's what this whole thing is for. That's my this No, this is not my religious beliefs, right? So, but anyways, I think that that's what we're doing here. So learning how to create is the good or bad it's how effective are you it's not necessarily is what you're creating good or bad it's how effective are you at creating it. And the Enlightenment comes with recognize being being willing to accept that everything that is happening right now you are creating and then changing inputs to create better sure create more things that are going to serve you or give you the outcomes that you want. You may create that something gives you the outcome you thought you wanted and find out man I really didn't want that outcome that happens. Well, it's sometimes you know, we're bettering as a hypnotist, it helps us to become a better version of themselves. Sometimes the spouse isn't on board with that. I've helped themFemales become very self confident. The spouse doesn't like that all the time. And one lady got a divorce if that wasn't the reason she came, but she's happy with herself. It caused a bad thing in both of their eyes, but not really because she's, she's happy, she's better thankful. And I agree I'm not I'm not one to like.

How do you build a successful eCommerce business that has attracted nearly 5 million visitors in a month? For Jerry Hum, it took a few failures and a couple of stumbles out of the gate with his cofounders before finding the winning combination of users, demand, and products all in one. Jerry is a co-founder and the Executive Chairman of Touch of Modern, a members-only e-commerce website and app focused on selling lifestyle products, fashion, and accessories to men. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Jerry takes us through his early struggles and how he found the secret sauce to making his eCommerce platform one of the most popular among male shoppers. Plus he explains what metrics other eCommerce pros should be looking at, and gives some advice to other entrepreneurs. Key Takeaways: For a multi-brand company, customer retention and lifetime value is the critical metric to look at Build the primary platform where your primary customer prefers to buy Combine marketing engagement and transactional data to prevent high engagement high cost marketing yielding low sales volume --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible eCommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey everyone. This is Stephanie, your host of Up Next In Commerce. Today we have Jerry Hum. The co-founder and executive chairman of Touch Of Modern. Jerry, how's it going? Jerry: Pretty good. How are you? Thanks for- Stephanie: [crosstalk] good. Yeah, how's it going? So you're in a loft right now, right? In SF, living the quarantine life. Jerry: Yeah, in San Francisco. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: Yep. Stephanie: How- Jerry: [crosstalk] for a little longer than most other folks. Stephanie: Yeah. So what's your day look like with being sheltered in place and... I think San Francisco is even stricter than Palo Alto where you guys [inaudible] allowed to do even more than we are. Jerry: Yeah. Well, we actually started preparing for it a little bit earlier actually, just as it was making news headlines and most companies were still up and running. We were planning kind of contingencies and all that planning and seeing how work from home would be like if we had to do it. Luckily we came up with a plan just in time. We actually went into it before even California started making statements about it. So I think we are kind of in a pretty decent groove in terms of keeping the business running smoothly and all that. In terms of a day to day, I'm actually surprised as to maybe how engaged people have remained. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: Being that we have to do it all through technology. I actually started thinking about it, why is it that work from home is almost a little bit easier now than it was in the past. And I think it's because when it's the only option then you just do it. Right? Stephanie: You have to make it work. Jerry: Yeah. It's not like if half the office is doing one thing and then... Or not like half the office. If most of the office is at work and a few people are work from home then it's actually more difficult because the people in the office are like, "Oh, I'll just wait for that person to get in or something." But if this is the only way that every one is communicating then it's actually fairly smooth. Obviously everything takes a little bit more time and all that. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: [inaudible] day is actually longer than usual. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: All things considered, I think it's working pretty well. Stephanie: Good. Yeah. Hopefully it will all come to a close soon. How have you all handled... I mean has there been any struggles, I'm imagining taking photos of your products and things like that? That's probably a very in-person type of thing that [inaudible] people have perspectives on and all want to help. How are you handling things like that with your business that seem pretty hard to do virtually? Jerry: Yeah. So luckily, some of our folks have set-ups at home. Stephanie: Good. Jerry: Yeah. Because usually, photographers, this is not just a job. It's also a passion and a hobby. Right. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: So we've been able to make due... Obviously at a reduced capacity. Yeah. Stephanie: Yeah. Well, good. So maybe that's a good point to dive into what is Touch of Modern. If you were to explain it to the listeners and give us some background. Jerry: Touch of Modern is the only shopping destination that men visit daily. And we offer a [inaudible] mix of remarkable products across all categories and that you can use everyday.This could be anything from a flame thrower you can strap to your wrist, or the newest exercise gadget, or anything in between. Stephanie: Are women allowed? Because I was on there and I was like, "I want to buy some of this stuff." I would buy... Maybe not a flame thrower but there was some good stuff on there that I'm like, "I want this." Jerry: Of course, women are allowed. It's just kind of more... A little bit more of our differentiator. Because most E-commerce sights out there are catered toward women. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: [inaudible] we're not the only one but one of a few that really cater to men. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah. It looks awesome. A lot of the products. I was afraid to hit buys right away. How did you come to create the idea of Touch of Modern? And I think I read it was the third... The third times a charm. That you had done three other things, or two other things before that until you got to Touch of Modern. What was that like? What was that journey like? Jerry: Yeah. I'll give you the long story here, maybe. Stephanie: Good. Jerry: [Four] founders, guys from New York. The business actually was a peer-to-peer experienced market place. And this is kind of similar to what Airbnb has now. Obviously they built that on top of their existing business but we were trying to start from scratch at the time. That was extremely difficult because you're telling folks to change their lifestyle. Right? If you need to suddenly offer a cooking class, that's not a easy thing to do if you don't have the customers for it. Right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: Or the time for it. And then we're telling customers to come on this platform and book stuff. But if you don't have the activities, what is there to book? Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: So it becomes this chicken and egg problem. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: It came out of our own need because we were guys from New York, you're kind of looking for interesting things to do all the time, just in the city. Right? The second business was called Raven. Well, the first one was called [Scarra 00:05:24]. I don't know if I mentioned that. Second one was called Raven. That was a slight variation on the first. And that was we took out half of the equation because we realized, double sided marketplace, super hard. Right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: We started offering activities that already existed. This could be like hang gliding. This could be sky diving. This could also be day at the spa. Right. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: We also layered on a recommendation algorithm where you could like stuff. And based on your activity, we would offer you a daily feed of different activities and things that were new to discover in your area. We got a lot of engagement out of that. People found really cool things. If you look at my feed versus somebody else's, it would be really different based on what we like. When we looked at it, it was like, oh this is a pretty accurate description of things I'm interested in and my hobbies and such. Right? Jerry: And that was difficult because people would then discover stuff but they wouldn't actually book it with us. They would just call directly [crosstalk 00:06:29]. Stephanie: Wow. Jerry: What we learned from that was, well, we need reason for people to transact. Right? And we need maybe something to make us relevant for right now. So the second generation of that business was actually arranging events where we built a mobile app as the early days of... Not the iPhone but when apps started getting the more complicated... Better than just the kind of beer pouring app. Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: Those simple things. Right? So we used Geofencing to create this thing where if you went within a certain perimeter of something going on, we would tell you about it. We'll alert you and be like, "Hey, like... Street fair over here or something over there." And that was really cool because there wasn't another app like that. At least that we know of... That we knew of at the time that was doing that. Also at the time, a lot of folks were moving to San Francisco. Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: Probably even more so than they are today. A ton of messages from people saying, "Wow, you're really helping me discover the city. Every weekend we pull this out and, you know, see what's going on." Especially because San Francisco is the type of city that always has something going on. Stephanie: Yeah. Like on the side streets, you're like, "There's a whole festival going on right now." Jerry: Yeah. So that was really cool but again, a lot of these things were free. So it wasn't there wasn't a real business model there. There's just a ton of engagement. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It seems like you guys are kind of ahead of your time with that. Because even when I'm hearing about that now, I'm like, oh, if you would have kept going with that one, Airbnb probably would have acquired you. Jerry: Yeah. Right. Stephanie: Oh, if you kept going with the Geofencing thing, Google would acquired you because I worked for Google Maps before this. Jerry: Oh, yeah. Stephanie: They're still trying to figure out how to show you where the festivals are, where the farmers markets are based on your location. So maybe you guys are just ahead of your time with everything. Jerry: Maybe. That would be the positive view of it. So I think the lesson we learned from that was... Incredibly hard to scale location based things. because you could sell out all the tickets to this one show or a certain percentage of it but there's unlimited margin and you're constricted by the location and therefore we couldn't justify the kind of business mechanics that were necessary to actually make that sustainable. I mean, it raised a ton of money. Right? And so this isn't going to get like... Where it wasn't like, hey, we're going to get to a billion people and then it's going to work. It's not like that. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: So we were like, what were we good at and what were we not good at? We were really good at getting people engaged. Really good at discovery aspect of things. We just needed something more scalable to be the thing that we featured. And realized that, hey, products... You get scale with products. Right? Mass distribution and all that. There's real margin there because that's kind of built into the modal that [inaudible] already exists. Jerry: We had always kind of liked products, just as the people that we were. But we didn't want to touch it because we didn't want to deal with real world problems of moving things around, shipping, [crosstalk 00:09:46]- Stephanie: Yeah. Logistics. Jerry: Yeah. Logistics. Right? After going through the struggles of the first two business, we realized that things are not really... It's not rocket science. Right? This has been done. We started thinking about what kind of unique angle we could take at it. I remember we were in the living room and we're talking about speakers for some reason and who made the best speakers. Dennis had his idea. Jon had his idea. And then Steven, who's real audio files, was like, no, these are the best speakers. He knew all these brands that we didn't even know about. We knew the mass market brands but not the kind of stuff that he was into. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: He had all this knowledge. Okay, you win that debate. Right? And we realized that we have this thing that we geek out on. Right? Jon was really into cooking and he had these really expensive knives that he would keep in this [inaudible] that he would have to take out and show us. Dennis was really into outdoor activities and all the gear that's associated with that. I use to be an architect when I was in New York so I spent way too much money on furniture. So that was my thing. Right? And so everyone had our own thing. No one out there was catering to this desire or whatever it was that ties all these things together. Right? Jerry: So we just started sourcing things that we thought were cool. Hey, if we think it's cool, other people are going to think it's cool too. Right? It wasn't like a men thing. It wasn't even necessarily a discovery thing. It was just these were the things that we thought were cool. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: Through that process, right away it kind of hit in a way that the other two businesses did not hit at all in two years. Right? Where day one we started getting real transactions and kind of buying activity. Right? Stephanie: How? How did you get buying on day one? How did people even find your website or know where to go? Jerry: We did not even have a website on the very first day. We actually... What happened was Dennis, who ran marketing, would just start running ads and would go to a landing- Stephanie: Okay. Facebook? Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: Or what kind of ads? Okay. Jerry: Facebook. Earlier in the days of Facebook too. I think a lot of what we did, now, can't be exactly replicated but there's probably some learnings to take from it. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: So we basically just collected emails and say, "Hey, there's this thing that's coming soon." Right? I think [inaudible] probably remember years ago there was tons of these types of things that are just coming soon and you're like wow [crosstalk 00:12:39]. Stephanie: Yeah. That was the strategy back then of just like just put up a landing page and see if people want that fake product that you could create. I remember books where they would suggest that and I'm like, that's a good idea. Jerry: [crosstalk] that is more less of a pit. I mean, we were creating it. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: I'm not talking about like, let's just run ads and see if people like it. We were just building it at the time, that same time we were running ads against it. And basically we had an idea of what that metrics needed to look like in order for a business to work. Right? We just made assumptions down the whole funnel. Right? If we acquire an email for this much, and if this percent of folks convert, and assume a certain order value, and certain repeat rate then this is what our business would look like. Right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: And no data for anything outside of what it would cost to acquire an email. Basically, we knew the cost of that. Then we started sourcing products and building the website behind it. Then we just went down the funnel and firmed our assumptions. Sometimes they were better and sometimes they were just different. We kind of just proved it out from the top down. Stephanie: Got it. That's really cool. Has it always been a member's only platform? Has there ever been a time where people could just go to the website, the app, and just see the products without inputting their email? Jerry: Yeah. So, we require folks to input the email for the upfront reason that we are talking to... And this is also maybe one of our differentiators, is that we are not a clearance channel per se. We talk to vendors who have products that are new to market. Right? So they may have endeavors to go to traditional retail or something else, and they may not want their prices shown necessarily to everybody. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: So that's one [inaudible] been the case. Stephanie: Got it. Okay. Cool. So when I was looking at your catalog and just seeing everything that you have, how do you go about curating something like that? I mean, it sounds easy in the early days of, oh, so and so likes knives so he pulled in his favorite knives. But I saw how many products you have on that page. Maybe it's like... How many a day do you release? Jerry: It's about 300 a day. It's quite a bit. Stephanie: How do you find 300, even a month, cool products that are so unique like that and keep up the level of quality that's on there? Jerry: We have a team of about 30 or so folks on the sources and buying team and they're out just looking for what's cool and unique. And obviously we have our standards and things that we look for and they just go out and try to find things that meet those standards. And they also try to find things that are... that we've just never seen or heard of before. Right? Then we bring it back, it goes through an approval process, and then we put it up and run it. It's fairly simple. Stephanie: Does it still go through you to approve of every single product? Jerry: Not every single product. Stephanie: No. Jerry: In the early days it was and now we have a team of folks that can do it. Stephanie: Got it. And you also have an app that people can buy from. Is it the same functionality? Does the website mimic the app or how did you think about expanding to mobile? Jerry: It's mostly the same functionality. We expanded to mobile fairly early on. Like I said, our previous companies were... We were already experimenting with mobile back then. I don't think we had one on Scarra but Raven, we definitely did. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: That was a core part of it. So we went to mobile pretty early on and I don't think we knew this per se, but it was interesting because men tend to be more comfortable buying on mobile too. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: And maybe that influenced part of our strategy or vice versa. It seems to actually be the more popular platform for us. Both in terms of actual use engagement and revenue as well. Stephanie: Okay. And do you see different customer profiles when it comes to the mobile user versus the website users? And do you cater to them differently based on that? Or personalize things different? Jerry: No. The experiences are pretty congruent on both sides. The mobile users tend to have a little bit of a higher value. But that could also be because you kind of have to self select into mobile. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: You go on to the website and then you're all, hey, we're really into it. And then you go on the app. Right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: It's kind of hard to say what's [inaudible 00:17:21]. Stephanie: Go it. Very cool. So in the early days you were doing Facebook ads. And I think I read that you were doing TV ads as well at a certain point. How has your marketing strategy evolved over... since you started? Jerry: Yeah. So in the early days of Facebook it was like a wild, wild west. Right. Big brands weren't really on it. So it was a great time for companies like us. And this is why I say a lot of it can't really be replicated today exactly the same way we did it back then. So when a lot of competition started moving in, in order to compete, we kept broadening our category just... I mean, just becoming a stronger business. Right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: So it would be a lot harder to start with just a handful of products the same way we did. When we started, I think we launched with 12 products and that was it. It was like 12 individual products, not twelve vendors, just 12 [inaudible] things you could buy. Right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: That was enough to make it work. Probably impossible now to do that. As the business grew we could support more channels. We went into Google and then eventually got to the size where we can actually start experimenting with TV. I think also, TV has evolved over time as well because of visual advertising. Because so many brands see the benefits of digital advertising. You can track things and kind of go after a more specific audiences. That TV now kind of has changed to have some of those properties as well. So we use them both kind of together and they enhance each other. You can tell when, if you're spending too much on TV and not enough on digital, then TV starts to suffer. If you spend too much on digital and not enough on TV then the opposite happens. Stephanie: Got it. How do you find that ROI of the campaigns? Then decide, okay let's scale back on TV and increase mobile ads or something. What metrics are you looking for? Jerry: We actually have the exact same metrics on TV as we do on digital. Right? And this is just... cost acquired customer and lifetime value and all that. The way we track it is now you can know exactly when your spot airs and basically we have a baseline of traffic that we know that, hey, if nothing is airing, this is what are organic traffic looks like. Right. So when we air a spot, we can see that spike. We do a [inaudible] analysis to say this much of the traffic following that airing is probably through the TV. Stephanie: Got it. Okay. Very cool. So when it comes to metrics, when you think about E-commerce, what metrics do you think are most important to keep track of? Or how do you define success when it comes to E-commerce? Jerry: Yeah. There's a ton of stuff. I mean, it really depends... It depends a lot on what kind of product you're selling. Right? I'll give you two extremes. One extreme is like us, and for us we are a multi-brand retailer. Right? You can buy a number of things and also we change our selection everyday. So you can keep coming back to keep buying different things. Right? Jerry: So what's important to us is lifetime value and retention. Right? How fast do you break even on the cost to acquire a customer? At the end of the day, that's kind of like the most basic thing for any kind of company in our space. But the products that you're selling may influence how you look at it. Right? If you're selling cars or mattresses or something that you just don't buy very often, then you may think about it very differently because it's just not feasible to thing that the retention rate is going to be nearly what ours is. Right. Or at least not be frequent enough for you to be able to plan your marketing spin around. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Go it. How do you keep your customers... How do you retain them and keep them coming back? Versus acquiring new customers. How do you think about that mix? Jerry: I mean, you always have to acquire new customers. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: I think [inaudible] is just like a natural part of business. You can't deny that it's there. Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: [inaudible] you can be great but there's going to be some folks that it's not for. Right? It's not like 100 percent of your folks are going to stay with you forever. Even the folks that do eventually they may change taste or things like that may happen. So in terms of splits, I think that also varies on performance for us. For us we care about kind of a payback on the spend that we're doing and pending on where we see better performances kind of where we'll weight it. And also kind of seasonally because I would say for retail there's holiday season and all that, you may want to do one thing versus another. But that's going to be really specific to the kind of company that you're running. Stephanie: Yeah. So when it comes to changes in spending pattern, what have you seen with everything from COVID-19 going on? Like what kind of differences? I saw you have a... I think a stay-at-home section or something similar like that. Shelter in place, on your website. How have you seen things change since that started? Jerry: People's priorities definitely change very quickly. Luckily for us because we can change our assortment everyday, we were actually able to adapt really quickly. We got that store up from... From when we said we were going to do it to when it was up was a matter of... Like the morning to that afternoon. Stephanie: That's impressive. How did you line up all the vendors? I mean, to me that's like a long process of picking the vendors and picking out the product and making sure they can ship enough, depending on demand. How did you get all that lined up so quickly? Jerry: The thing is... I mean, when this first started happening especially. And we need to agree now still, it seemed as if time had just sped up suddenly. Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: Things that would take an entire quarter could happen now in like a day. Right? Stephanie: Yeah. It has to. Jerry: Everyone was wondering what would be different? All of our vendors, suddenly their retail channels dried up. Right? And they had to move things around. So we just called them up and said, "Hey, this is what we're doing." Obviously most of the folks that were on there, day one, were folks we've worked with already in the past. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: Or coincidentally we were talking to and hey, this fits, kind of thing. Right? It was tapping existing relationships. And parallel, the design and engineering teams were building up the store. We were using some existing infrastructure that we could repurpose and re-skin for the store. It was an amazing feeling. I didn't think we were going to do it in a day but it happened. Stephanie: Yeah. And are you changing that catalog? Like each day or week or... Jerry: [crosstalk] as well. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Stephanie: Got it. Does it... How do you think now your company is going to change based on now you know how quick things can move if it has to? Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: Do you think that your internal policies and all that stuff could change going forward based on how quickly you can see thing go through? And maybe seeing things aren't a priority or approval for certain things might not be as high priority as you thought they were or... What's your view on that? Jerry: Yeah. I mean, in terms of policies first... I think in more so than anything it was like validation of a lot of policies that we had in place. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: It was confirmation that we could move quickly. Because we always thought we could. I think that's always been our thing. One of the questions people always ask is how does a company that sells premium products, how does that respond in a recession? Right? This isn't a recession but it's a time when people's priorities are going to shift maybe away from things that were... seems more frivolous to things that are now more essential. Right? For us, we always said, well you know, we can respond quickly but it's never been proven. And now it's been proven to an extent that we can respond quickly. And we can move to things that are more essential. It's still essential with a twist. Right? Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: It's still within our brand. And it's going to bring a bit of uniqueness and delight into people's lives that are staying at home. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: I think it's validation that the modal can move quickly. The way we thought. And that our brand can extend to the different categories. And address people's needs as they change. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you think these buying behaviors are going to last for a while? And if so, are you shifting maybe your thoughts on what Touch of Modern looks like in 2025, 2030? Is it kind of having you re-think things a bit? Jerry: I think that people's buying behaviors will change because I don't think it's going to go back to exactly the way it was. You know. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I agree. Jerry: Yeah. People are going to be much more... And I hope they're going to be much more health conscience. I hope that this introduces some good habits. Right? I think people take a bit of time to reflect and think about things like self improvement. Maybe they didn't have the time to do before because I think some people staying home are going to realize like, "Hey, there's this new hobby that I've always been wanting to do that I can do now." Or, "Maybe I should drink less." Whatever it is that they discover when they change their lifestyle, that there's actually parts of this that are good, that they can take away and keep with them. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Except for the drinking lessening. I think that one's going the wrong way. Jerry: Wait. I don't know. I don't know how some people are- Stephanie: Happy hour time keeps getting earlier and earlier. I'm like, I need to set up rules around this house. Oh my gosh. It's only like two o'clock, what am I doing? Jerry: Well, I mean, another silver lining here is that I think people now have actually seen how quickly the environment can actually improve just with... And in a short period of time. Right? Because in the past I think it always seemed like this insurmountable thing to certain folks where it's like, "Yeah, you know, we can recycle and do this, but we've been doing that for a long time and nothing has really changed. It's actually been getting worse." Right? Jerry: And then suddenly you take a step back and it's like, hey, things change quickly. Right? Stephanie: Yeah. Jerry: So maybe it's not as impossible as we thought. We just have to be deliberate about habits that we have and maybe where we spend our energy. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I think sometimes a little shake up like that can be good for people and the economy. And good things could come from it. Even though there's a lot of bad going on as well. I think, yeah, it depends where you're looking, I guess. So when... Oh, go ahead. Jerry: Yeah, I mean, [inaudible] other wise it's just all bad. Right? Stephanie: Yeah. No, everything can't be all bad. There has to be something good out there. That's what I'm hoping for anyways. So when it comes to outside of Touch of Modern, and more of the E-commerce industry as a whole, what destructions do you see are coming? Especially with COVID-19 now. We're seeing some of that already happening. But what are you betting on in the future... Yeah, coming? Jerry: Well, I'm going to bet probably more on E-commerce. Right? I think people are going to build habits from shopping at home that are not going to go away. Right? I think certain things that maybe people use to only buy in person are like, hey, I can buy this at home. It's actually a pretty decent experience, probably going to keep that habit even after this. And I think people are going to maybe focus a little more on preparedness for things than they have in the past. I think human nature is that you never think that these kind of outlier type of situations can happen, but they do. Be that once... Once in a century, I'd never think about it. But a person lives a long time. Right? Jerry: You may see a once in a century thing in your life. That's probably going to happen for a lot of people. Right? And this is that thing for us. Stephanie: Yeah. Agree. It seems like there's going to be a lot of new people coming online who never were online before. And it brings me to a point I saw on your website that I liked a lot is kind of meeting a consumer where they're at. There's two things I saw on your website that I thought would be perfect for a new consumer who doesn't normally buy online. The first one was you have a toggle button on your homepage that says, "View as." And you're about to actually change how you view products on the page, depending on what you prefer. Stephanie: So I thought that was genius. Any insight behind that? Or any thoughts when you were creating that? Because I haven't seen many websites allow you to toggle that view to what you prefer. Jerry: Yeah. It's just like a preference thing. Right? Our experience on the landing page is we just drop you right into our offering. Right? It's not like a landing page where you then click in and search and do all this other stuff. Mostly E-commerce is catered to search. Right? You just go on the page and automatically thing is you type in what you're looking for. Right? That's not really our experience. It's there but it's kind of secondary. It's mostly a browse and kind of meander your way through our offering. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: We let people maybe pick the way they want to meander. Right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). How do people meander through 300 hundred things? Because I was going through and I wanted to look at all of them but after a little I'm like, oh, this is too many. And I kind of wished maybe like... What did I see? There was this screen that extended your screen. So you have your MacBook or something and you plug in a little cord and you have an extension of your screen, which is awesome. Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: I'm like, that should have been shown to me first because I want to buy that right now. Whereas, what was the second thing? It was showing maybe like an expensive bottle of wine, which I'm like, oh, push that down some because I'm not fancy like that. How do you think about helping people get through these products each day? Jerry: Well, I think your first time experience is going to ne a little bit different than your second and your third time. About almost half of our users, and I'm not talking about customers but just people that visit, will actually come back at least once a week. And so- Stephanie: Wow. Jerry: Yeah. And so if you're doing that and then our most frequent visitors are coming back every single day, then it's not as hard to browse through everything. Because then you can browse through it and then you'll hit a point where, okay, now I'm looking at yesterday's stuff. Right? And so, if you keep up with it everyday then it's not actually a ton of stuff. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: But for your first time, you're looking at all the days that have accumulated in the past five days. And certain events will also extend beyond that. I think the first time experience is like, wow, this is a ton of stuff. And also because you probably want to click through every single thing. Right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: But after awhile you're probably just looking for the things that catch your eyes. Or you're just going to scan and be like, okay, that's really cool. That's really cool. But you're not necessarily going to check out every single thing. Right? Stephanie: Yeah. [inaudible] Jerry: Also, on the mobile app, the scrolling screen is just much slicker and smoother too. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: I think you might just browse there. A lot of folks also will tell us that it's just something that they peruse through when they're waiting for something or commercial break or something like that. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). The second thing I saw that I really liked, which I also haven't seen... Maybe I'm just not on enough websites. I don't know. But I was looking through... It was an about shipping section. And it showed a visual of what does your shipping status mean. Jerry: Yeah. Yeah. Stephanie: And it just... It showed everything from like, we place our PO, and than it goes to the supplier, and here's what it means if you see... I don't know the whole... I can't remember the whole layout. But I thought that was genius showing it in a visual format. And I'm sure that probably brings down a lot of customer support emails. But tell me how you all are thinking about giving that transparency to the customer. Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: And hopefully prevent a million a emails of, hey, where's my product. Jerry: This is another product of our business modal. Or kind of what differentiates us a bit. We sell across all categories. Right? Meaning that we have to be able to accommodate all the categories. So it's not like, a company that just sells furniture ships one way. A company that just sells clothing ships another way. Right? And so their customers go there expecting a certain experience. A company that sells everything needs to ship all the different ways. Right? So a customer might not know exactly what this shipping process is going to look like when you buy something because they may not realize... I mean it's obvious now when I talk about it but if your company goes on a site, you're going to expect shipping experience to be generally consistent. But for us it's like, we're going to ship furniture differently, then we're going to ship clothing differently, and then we're going to ship, you know, this cup, right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: And so for us it's just more like informing the customer, this is what's going to happen. This is what it's going to look like. And this is what the different steps mean. For us, we found that more so than anything, they just want to know what's going on. That it's moving and... like internal. Yeah.   Stephanie: How about when it comes to relaying the value of the product? How do you convince someone that something is really good? Because I don't think I saw reviews on the website. Unless I missed them.   How do you... That's usually the first thing I look for. Is it five stars? You know, I want to see if someone has the same kind of experience that I'm looking for. How do you tell someone something's valuable without that? Jerry: Yeah. I mean, a lot of what we do is educating the customer. Right? Because a lot of these things they never heard of, they didn't know it exist. I wish we could say we do an awesome job at it and we provide all these reviewed stuff but... And we vet the product. We'll go and look at the reviews and we'll test the product and all that. But it does take a leap of faith in the first purchase and maybe you get a learned trust after some time, that like we've done the research. Jerry: Because if you go and research these products you're going to find that they're pretty highly regarded. Stephanie: Yep. Which I think actually might be the modal that it's headed is just show me one or two people at your company that I trust to review product, and I trust them. Because a lot of reviews, I mean, at least on other places... Marketplaces and things like that. They're paid reviews. And so you go through and you're like, well, I can't trust 90 percent of these anyways. So I think it is kind of shifting towards just give me the one person that I can trust. Or the one company that I can trust to curate something for me. And I know if it's coming from them, it's going to be quality and good. Stephanie: Are there any big transformations that are going to be on your plate after the environment kind calms down? Or any big projects that you plan on starting or changing within your strategy? Jerry: Yeah. We're working on shipping things a lot quicker. The reason being that a lot of our products do take a little bit longer because we have these various modals that we work with. And we found that when we can ship things more quickly people are generally way more happy and more likely to come back and purchase. Stephanie: Got it. How can you speed up the shipping for... when it's a bunch of different, I'm guessing, retailers who all their own different practices? How can you kind of know that you can speed that up and make it all pretty uniform? Jerry: Consign the product. Right? So they will house it in our warehouse and we essentially act as their distribution center. Stephanie: Oh. Okay, cool. Tell me a little bit about that. Do you have to buy warehouses in different parts of California? Or how is that modal set up? Jerry: Right now our warehouse actually has a good amount of space. And we've actually developed our distribution system to fit with our model, right, which is that we run things in these short spurts. Right? And what's cool about that is that things come in and they go out really quickly so we're not sitting on mountains of inventory. I mean, we're nearly inventory-less. We're very inventory light. We don't actually require that much space to run a lot of products. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: So right now, for the foreseeable future, it's to keep it within our distribution center. It's a long winded way of saying... Stephanie: Okay. Got it. How did you learn to do that? When I even think about shipping products to a warehouse and making sure everything goes well, how did you learn best practices around... Yeah, around all that? Jerry: Yeah. This is interesting because when we first started we were shipping our own products from day one. And so- Stephanie: From your house? Or from where? Jerry: From the house. [inaudible 00:41:45]. Stephanie: That's awesome. Jerry: ... of just tons of boxes in the living room. And then when the FedEx guy came we would... The first day we just piled it in the lobby and our neighbors got really pissed at us for doing that. Stephanie: I can imagine. Jerry: So the second day, we knew when the person was coming and we just did like bucket brigade style where we just passed packages from our living room down to the... Basically we had our four founders there. And we would just pass it down, bucket brigade style, down the stairs as quickly as the guy could load it into the truck. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. Jerry: And then the first day we finally opened the office, we set aside half of it for fulfillment. And the reason why we did that was because we realized our model is just very different than a traditional pick and pack modal, which is what most 3PLs... What's called a third party logistics provider. At least back then, they were mostly doing pick and pack type operations. And it didn't really fit our modal and we realized that at a certain scale we'd have to bring it in house. It's better to learn it now than to try to take it in when it's already at scale and have huge disruptions in customer experience. So basically, we just started doing it at a really small scale and built our operations all custom to that. So our, kind of, back office technology is all custom. Right? So everything ties together and it suits us in a way that... If you went with a just a third party provider, it probably wouldn't work as well. Stephanie: Very cool. Well, definitely have to get that picture from you so you can post it somewhere to show people because that's... Yeah, a really fun story of starting out. Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: What do you see for new people starting out, building their stores and all that? What is some advise that you give them? Or best practices or things that you did that you're like, don't do that, that actually worked out really bad. Jerry: So this probably goes back to your first question about the two businesses that we had before. We made some classic mistakes. Right? Which is, I think the big one is you build the whole thing and you spend like a year building it and then you think that one day you're going to open and people are just going to come in. Right? Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: Then you start thinking, hey, maybe we just keep tweaking the product and eventually people will come. Right? Really all you're doing is staying busy. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: Because if the demand is not there, it's not going to suddenly show up, almost like the world changes, right? And you would be at the right place at the right time. So it's prove out the demand first. And then when the demand is there, you can take your time with the product. Right? It's like, you don't want to be in a place where you're convincing yourself that the reason you're not succeeding is because the product is not quite right. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: If there's a real need for it you can come out with something that's pretty minimal and just addresses the core need. And it doesn't even have to run perfectly and be totally ironed out. And that will give you enough signal that there's something there that people want. And then you can find it down the road and keep expanding your market to... [inaudible] but this is now more mass market. And so on and so forth. Right? Because the early folks, they want your service, whatever it is, so much that they're going to put up a little bit with you in the early days of like not having it all totally together. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). [crosstalk] Jerry: And so... Yeah. Yeah. You got to prove out the demand first before you totally refine the product. Stephanie: Cool. And what about when it comes to technology? How do you think about... It sounds like you guys did a lot of just in-house... everything. In-house logistics. In-house website stuff. What would you tell someone right now? Should they try and build things in-house? Or... Yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Jerry: It's easier now to build anything in-house than it use to be. Right? Back then it was actually a little more difficult because a lot of the frameworks that are being used today were really fresh back then. Right? So people weren't learning it in school. They had to teach themselves. There weren't the coding bootcamps back then either. So engineers were still a little bit hard to come by. Now, resources are there and everything. Jerry: We were lucky because we did our own coding in the first versions of the site. It was me and Steven, our CTO. More him than me but we built the early versions of that and didn't hire engineers for a long time. Maybe longer than... we probably should have hired engineers a little bit earlier than we did. But we got by with just two folks building stuff. Right? But you also learn a lot. You are kind of like more intimate with the product, even today, just because we have that history with it. Stephanie: Yep. Jerry: And I think one of the things that's really important to us early on was the data ownership. Right? We don't want to have all these different things talking to each other and not have a clear picture of what's going on. Right? Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jerry: We don't want any black boxes. There's things that if we don't have access to all the data then we're just going to cut that service and we're going to build it ourselves. Stephanie: Got it. Very cool. Yeah. Great advice. So with a couple minutes left, we're going to move on to... it's called the lightning round. Brought to you by [Sales Force Commerce Cloud 00:47:37]. Sales Force Commerce Cloud. This is when I shoot a question over your way and you have a minute or less to say the first answer that comes to mind. Jerry: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Stephanie: Are you ready? Jerry: Okay. Stephanie: Dun, dun, dun, dun. We'll start with the easy ones first and then we'll end with the harder one. Sound good? Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: All right. What's up next for dinner? Jerry: Left-over Chinese food. Some more. Stephanie: Yep. What's up next that you're buying from Touch of Modern? Jerry: What am I buying next? Well, I'll have to see what comes up next. It changes everyday so I don't know yet. Stephanie: All right. Well, what did you just buy recently? Or what's your most recent purchase? Jerry: My most recent purchase was, funny enough, it is a cast-iron rice pot from [Le Creuset 00:48:22]. Stephanie: Okay. Have you tried it out yet? Jerry: No, it hasn't gotten here yet. It was very recent. This was probably... couple days ago. Stephanie: Cool. What's up next on Netflix or Hulu queue? Jerry: I actually don't have either. I don't even own [inaudible] TV. I don't watch a whole lot of stuff, actually. Stephanie: Okay. Hey, that's an answer. What's up next in your travel destinations after the environment calms down a bit? Jerry: I think an easy one from California would be Hawaii. I like to go there to relax and it's a relatively short trip. So I like to go there [inaudible 00:49:05]. Yeah. Stephanie: What's your favorite island there? Have you been? Jerry: Yeah. I go to Oahu fairly frequently. I really like Kauai, I've been there once to do a hike. Stephanie: Yeah. That's my favorite island with all the waterfalls there and the crazy hikes that- Jerry: [crosstalk] been to the weeping walls? Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. Jerry: Yeah. Stephanie: Yep. Oh, yeah. I want to go back though. We were only there for a couple days and I feel like there's so many different hikes and waterfalls and just things to see there. I mean, it's... Yeah, like a jungle. It's awesome. On to the hard question. What's up next for E-commerce pros? Jerry: E-commerce pros. Hmm. Man. What's next for the pros? I think, I mean, it's going to be adapting to the changes in customer behavior that are coming out of this. Whatever that is. I don't have a crystal ball for that one. Stephanie: Got it. Hey, that's an answer. All right, Jerry. Well, this has been a fun interview. For everyone who hasn't gone and checked out Touch of Modern, you should. It has really fun products on there. And yeah, thanks for coming on the show. Jerry: Thanks for having me.    

Learn more about Milk StorkSupport the show – and get on monthly advisory calls with Fabian (in groups for both creatives as well as entrepreneurs) Full Transcript:F Geyrhalter: Welcome to the show, Kate.K Torgersen: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.F Geyrhalter: Oh, absolutely. It's so great to have you. The way I actually got to know you and Milk Stork, and we talked about this a little bit prior to hitting record, was at an NPR event where I was actually a mentor and in between my sessions, I saw you on stage interviewing the unbelievably charming founders of Clif Bar. I was so taken by that heartfelt and insightful conversation, since you were a Clif Bar employee. And then you split off with your own venture and they were very supportive of that journey. Right?K Torgersen: Absolutely. Yeah. I actually started Milk Stork on a Clif Bar business trip.F Geyrhalter: That makes so much sense.K Torgersen: Yeah. So I worked at Clif Bar since 1998. And after having my twins, I was, my twins are my second and third babies, but I also have an older baby, so I have three kids altogether and I-F Geyrhalter: And Milk Stork.K Torgersen: Yeah, and Milk Stork, my fourth baby. But I had to go on a business trip and with the twins, I was really committed to breastfeeding. I had breastfed my first child for 18 months and I wanted to give the twins everything that my first kid had. But with breastfeeding twins it's really hard. I mean, it's tandem nursing. We had a bunch of issues with getting one of the twins to latch and weight gain issues. So by the time this business trip came up, it really felt like the stakes were high because the twins had never had formula at that point. They were exclusively on breast milk and I just didn't know how I was going to do the business trip and deal with this breastfeeding situation. So yeah, it was started on a Clif Bar business trip. Obviously Clif Bar, Gary and Kit, the owners of Clif Bar, that culture is so accepting of parenthood and supportive of parenthood. I could have easily said that I wasn't going to take the trip or I would rather not take the trip. But for me it was important to take the trip and not miss out on opportunities that I cared about professionally. So I went on that trip. I lugged two gallons of breast milk home.F Geyrhalter: Oh, my God.K Torgersen: Pumped throughout the trip. And I came back from that trip and I was like, "I've got to figure out a way to fix this." That really was a page out of Gary's, Gary Erickson, the founder Clif Bar, a page out of his book. It's literally probably a page out of his book, that if you have an idea, you just need to chase it down relentlessly and not let go of it, not leave it in the dust.F Geyrhalter: And they were super supportive when you said, "Look, I have to do this."K Torgersen: Yeah. Yeah. I continued for many, many years? A couple years I would say. I was working full time at Clif Bar. My kids were three years old and under for a good part of that, five years old and under. And I was working on Milk Stork at night after they went to bed.F Geyrhalter: May that be a good lesson for all the listeners who say, "Ah, I've got a day job. I can't start a startup. It's too difficult."K Torgersen: Yeah, I mean-F Geyrhalter: Add a pair of twins to that.K Torgersen: Yeah, I have to say, I mean there was a couple of years where there was really no sleep. I was going to bed at probably, if I was lucky, the kids would go to bed at eight, if they actually stayed in their beds and then I would work till one or two. But it's funny looking back, I was so fueled by the idea and solving the idea that... And so absent of sleep already in my life, thanks to the kids, that I don't remember that as that push on the sleepless nights. But it's definitely not something that you can do forever. But in the beginning, I think you have that kind of gas and that gas in your tank that's just propelling you to do it. And that part was really exciting.F Geyrhalter: And, I mean it seems to me like it's a natural, it's somehow a natural gift from above that when you are a mom or any parent, right? You can survive these first sleepless years.K Torgersen: Yeah.F Geyrhalter: It's just something that suddenly you're on the, like you said, you've got that extra gas. And you used that gas tank fully for everything.K Torgersen: Yeah, I didn't have any free time and I was so captured by inspiration and so, I already had the endurance and grit that they came with motherhood. So it was kind of the opportune time. I don't know if I would've had that same kind of depth of grit if the idea had come a few years later or certainly not earlier.F Geyrhalter: And so for those of us who are not as familiar with the entire breastfeeding process and what goes into it and why it is actually so important to feed babies breast milk versus those hundreds of formulas that are out there or whatever. Right? And the idea of how difficult it is actually to travel with breast milk. Can you kind of give us an idea of how this is a real important niche that you are filling?K Torgersen: Yeah, so I think, the pain point of breastfeeding is that it's relentless. Moms who are breastfeeding or pumping every three hours, many of them are trying to make it to one year of having their kids on breast milk. And that's in the US that's the American Academy of Pediatrics recommendation is six months of exclusive breastfeeding and 12 months with breast milk as their primary source of nutrition, in addition to the introduction of solids. But what's interesting and amazing about breastfeeding and the reason you have to do it every three hours is that it's a supply and demand relationship. So the baby sets the supply for the mom. And if you miss a nursing session or you miss a pumping session, the woman's body responds to that dip in demand by producing less milk. And once you kind of disrupt that and your milk supply can start going down. And it's very hard to get it back. For me, breastfeeding was important, not just for the nutritional element, but for the attachment of it. And I didn't want to lose that connection with my kids. And I think, moms breastfeed for a lot of different reasons. Some moms are doing it for nutrition, some monitoring it for attachment. But I think ultimately the thing that was, that's been important to me in starting Milk Stork is that it should be up to the mom and the decision to breastfeed or not breastfeed shouldn't have anything to do with her career. It should be exclusively a relationship with her and her baby. And weaning, I just, it breaks my heart when women are weaning before they're ready or before they kind of want to end that relationship. I just, it should be on their terms.F Geyrhalter: And that was part of a Milk Stork, you also turned into an advocate for breastfeeding friendly policies overall, right? At the workplace.K Torgersen: Yeah. I think with breastfeeding, it's something that's invisible to the kind of the larger community, especially in the workplace. You're usually do it, you're doing it every three hours. You're stepping away to do it. You're stepping sometimes into a bathroom. If you're lucky, you're stepping into a conference room or a lactation room that has a lock and it's set up for you. But it's outside kind of the gaze of the workplace culture. And for a lot of women that kind of, that invisibility of it makes it hard to advocate for because you kind of have to explain this relationship, there's a lot of education that goes into explaining why you need a private room, what you're going to be doing. But I think at the same time, 50% of the workforce is female. Actually, I just saw an article that women are now, it's like tipping over 50%, women in the workforce.F Geyrhalter: Wow.K Torgersen: So, and most women, most moms are working moms. So this is a real pain point for a large part of the employee population.F Geyrhalter: Absolutely. And for the listeners who know me by now, I'm such a big proponent of niche brands that actually wholeheartedly connect with a very overlooked segment. And I'm, on the other hand, I'm also super obsessed with startups that create their own category, which are very, very few to many who say they do. But most of them don't disrupt the category or start a category to just barely fit in. But you actually, you're both, I mean, you're on the one hand, you're a big... You're, this is perfect. There's actually an ambulance in the back. I'm going to cut this up. Okay. I'm going to start this over.K Torgersen: Perfect.F Geyrhalter: Oh, perfect. And for those of you who listen to me a lot, they actually noted I'm a big proponent of niche brands that wholeheartedly connected with an overlooked segment. And I'm also obsessed with startups that create their own category. And they're very few of those. But you, Kate, are actually both. I mean, you launched a company that specializes in the facilitation of overnight shipping of breast milk for business traveling moms. I mean, that's just about as niche as it gets. Right?K Torgersen: Yeah.F Geyrhalter: I absolutely, I love that. And I mean, you had the epiphany out of a need and I heard you talk about this on another show. You basically when the airplane touchdown, you said, "You know what, I'm never going to do that again. And things need to change." And you literally got to work right after. But what is even more interesting to me is that when you officially, and I don't know what that word really means when you launch a company, because there are so many phases, but when you actually decided to push, right? And have the company be publicly out there and you start emailing and you start putting it out there and at that time it didn't take very long for it to actually catch on. Right? I mean it was pretty instant that people said, "Oh, I needed this." Or even employers saying, "You know what? I want this to become a benefit."K Torgersen: Right. It was instant. It was, we launched in August of 2015. My co-founder is actually my father and we essentially kind of flipped the switch on the website. We had spent a good nine or 10 months building out the kind of eCommerce platform and all the logistics of how this would work. So we flipped the switch on the website and we kind of just sat there and then an order came in. And then another order came in. And we're just like, "Oh my God, now we have to fulfill these orders."F Geyrhalter: Now what?K Torgersen: Now what? How are we going to do this?F Geyrhalter: Tell me, this is fascinating. So, you didn't do any push besides literally launching the site or did you already-K Torgersen: I did a press release.F Geyrhalter: Okay.K Torgersen: That was it. So we launched the site and my background was in PR and communications and we put out a press release. I did send that that release out into my own media relations and sent it out to a bunch of reporters. We did get an article with, I think it was within two weeks with Fortune Magazine.F Geyrhalter: Wow.K Torgersen: And so that got-F Geyrhalter: Then you know.K Torgersen: [crosstalk 00:12:09] Then within, also within two weeks after that article went, we got a call from one of the largest consulting firms in the world saying that they wanted to bring us on as an employee benefit for their North American employees.F Geyrhalter: Unbelievable.K Torgersen: And I took that call in my minivan in the childcare parking lot at Clif Bar and I just said, "Okay, yeah, we'll figure it out." And they wanted to launch in 30 days. And we did not have an enterprise kind of set up. I really thought it was going to be hard to explain breast milk shipping to companies and employers and advocate for that. So I knew that going direct to moms was the first place that we were going to go and we're like, "Okay, we'll figure out enterprise later." But that happened way faster than we ever, ever expected. And by the end of that year, we had five enterprise clients and that included two of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world.F Geyrhalter: Yeah. I mean just to visualize that idea of, "Oh good, you've got three or four clients that are enterprises instead of moms." I mean the amount of orders that you get because of that, it's just mind blowing. Right?K Torgersen: Yes.F Geyrhalter: I mean, you're going directly to the source. You don't have to advocate, you don't have to get one mom at a time. And I mean, to be honest, it's not cheap either, right?K Torgersen: No.F Geyrhalter: I mean, shipping breast milk is not cheap. I guess it's like somewhere at 170 or something like that. I don't know. I heard that number, but it's pretty, it's not inexpensive. So for moms to say, "Oh yeah, that's not a problem. I'm going to spend, I don't know, 200, 400 depending on how long the trip is, dollars on my baby's health." That is a really, really big expense. But for employers it is kind of a no brainer because what happens in the background is, those are individuals that have been with the company, some of them for a pretty long time, very loyal and then suddenly this life event happens. A very positive life event. That weirdly enough when it comes to work is actually not so much of a positive life event. Right? And so you're struggling with that and then you want to be loyal, but the more that companies can give moms, new moms a reason to stick with the company and to be loyal. I mean it's a huge benefit. Those 170 bucks or whatever it is, that's nothing.K Torgersen: Yeah. It's what happened almost immediately, which I don't think I could've ever, it didn't occur to me that this was going to happen, but I'm so glad that it did. And I think it's, I guess I had underestimated employers in the beginning and their desire to support working women. But what ended up happening, which is amazing, is that women started using Milk Stork and then rightfully asking their employers to reimburse them. And feeling empowered to do that. And I think there's a couple of things that were happening. One, it was a millennial workforce that was asking for it. And these are women and parents who are incredibly informed, probably the most informed generation of parents to walk the face of the earth.F Geyrhalter: Right. Right, because of all the resources that they have at their fingertips today.K Torgersen: Yeah, so and they have very high expectations for work life balance. It's also, it was on the, Me Too was happening and so women were speaking up about the realities of the workplace for them. And there was just a strong collective voice of women. And I think the other incredible thing was that women who needed Milk Stork were going to HR, which has a very high, as a profession, very high population of women. Going to somebody in HR who had experienced this pain point themselves, most likely or knew the challenges of returning to work and breastfeeding. And that HR person then became a firebrand within their company to help onboard the benefit.F Geyrhalter: That's all they look for is more benefits that are crystal clear for people to understand why it would make sense to have them for leadership. And it makes so much sense. And I love that now on your website you are actually having these letters, like at conferences when you're an employee and you want to go to a conference and there's letters on the conference website of like, "Hey, this is why I need to go. This is why you need to sponsor it." You have actual letters for HR, which it is a little bit different than when you go to a conference because when the whole idea of breastfeeding at a workplace is actually, it's very uncomfortable. It's a strange situation for someone to be in. And then to ask for a reimbursement around that in that entire, it can be awkward for people to have to go to, I mean in smaller companies to their boss and just explain everything. Right?K Torgersen: Yeah, I think to go to someone who's never lactated themselves and ask.F Geyrhalter: Like any male CEO.K Torgersen: Yeah. Or even women who have not experienced breastfeeding. Breastfeeding is so weird because you don't really know what goes into it until you've done it. Or you've seen a spouse or partner do it.F Geyrhalter: And I say right, not as in affirmative, but I don't know. I'm on that side. Right? But, I am an employer and I did have those instances and it is extremely strange to work around it and trying to find solutions that feel like they're comfortable for everyone. Right? It's not easy, especially when you're a two, three, four or five people shop. Right? It's not like you can create an entire infrastructure around it. Let's talk a little bit more about the Milk Stork brand. Like actually many of the successful brand founders that I have on Hitting The Mark. You mentioned you come from a marketing background too, I think at Clif Bar, the last position that you held was that of an executive communications and speechwriter. So I am wondering how much of Milk Stork's tone of voice and copy actually comes from you? Or did you have an agency or writer who's who's in charge of the brand voice at this point?K Torgersen: When one of the first things, it was funny when you were, earlier we were talking about what is starting a company even mean? What does that process look like?F Geyrhalter: Right.K Torgersen: One of the first things that I did was come up with the name because I think for me too, once you have that idea, putting a name makes you accountable to it. So it made it real and it made the idea not disappear into dust. It made it concrete. So coming up with a name that continued to inspire me as I was going to build the company was critical. So it was literally the first thing that we did. When I said, when my dad and I got going, I was, I kept texting him. I'm like, "What do you think of this name? What do you think of this name?" And then just, I think it was maybe two days after I had even had the idea, I came up with Milk Stork. And then-F Geyrhalter: Which by the way is brilliant, not to interrupt you, but it's a brilliant name.K Torgersen: It was important for it to be visual to me. I'm a very visual person and I wanted it to be kind of visual, but I also want it to be, so that when I knew that this category didn't exist and so it had to kind of explain also what the service was. And then we immediately got to work on the branding. And we did hire, I mean we didn't have a ton of money, I think we each put in like 25... No, we each put in $12,000 in the beginning. Something like that. And probably 3,000 of that went to hire somebody to help us come up with the branding, like the logo, the logo type, all of that. So it was-F Geyrhalter: And tone of voice and all of that was that still you writing at the beginning and-K Torgersen: Yeah.F Geyrhalter: Okay, okay.K Torgersen: I mean it is, it was a direct extension of me. And a lot of that came from my experience at Clif Bar. I mean, Clif Bar is a direct, it's a direct link to Gary and Kit and their values and that's a company where your brand is really about your integrity. And so that's kind of the lens that I was coming at Milk Stork with.F Geyrhalter: Absolutely. And I would love for anyone to actually look a little bit deeper into the Clif Bar brand because most people don't, right? Most people have a Clif Bar. They didn't look too deep into the brand. But it is really, really fascinating. And just to touch on something that you said before, because it happens so rarely, but I really, but I think it is so important. When you said that you came up with the name first and it was the driver because it made it real and it made it feel like, "Okay, now did I have that I'm almost there." It's like this naive idea of your brain where it's like, "Oh my God, it's now, it's real. It can be real. I can see it in front of me." To create something that's very descriptive, a very descriptive name. Usually for a lot of founders, startup founders that are listening, that are in the very, very early stages of their startup. It is a dangerous route unless you're in Kate's position because you knew exactly your offering. You knew you wouldn't expand like this is it, right? It is about shipping breast milk. That's it, right? There's nothing more, nothing less. I work with a lot of founders that say, "Yeah, you know, we're in the business of X." But then really two months later they're in the business of Y, right? But they already created a name and they didn't fall in love with the name. But then, after a year they have to change it because it is too descriptive. But you are one of those instances where it actually works so well. And it can fuel the entire journey. And Milk Stork is a very direct, a very bold brand which is quite apparent as you agree that by a large image of if very hip models slash mom breastfeeding on milkstork.com. So, I invite all listeners to check it out on milkstork.com since it is really making a very clear brand statement by solely using a photo and the header for moms on a mission. So in that particular very prominent image there is more attitude and self confidence than there's joy or relief. And I feel this did not happen by accident, since there was a certain attitude that breastfeeding moms need in order to ask the employer for reimbursement or to stand their ground publicly. Right? Then in my humble opinion, it perfectly caters to driven, career oriented moms. So, how did that art direction of that photo shoot and did this overall brand that we have today, not the brand that it was a couple of years ago, but today, how did that shape up and how did it change over the years?K Torgersen: Yeah, so when we first launched we actually went through, we have since gone through a rebrand. But when we first launched we, I wanted it to be something that moms could be proud of. I wanted Milk Stork to be something that they, something that wasn't, especially with a lot of branding in the mom space, you get a lot of cursive, you get a lot of pastels. And we did have kind of a pastel color in the beginning. But as the brand kind of evolved, we saw that moms were posting on social media and using the Milk Stork box as a badge of honor. Like, "Went to a conference." They were so proud to have been able to keep breastfeeding. That was a really clear signal to us that Milk Stork, we needed it to be the badge of honor that moms deserve. And so that's played a big role in the branding. I think the other big role that's that we've, the other big direction with branding is that I want to show real images of moms. Moms are not this kind of cookie cutter, cardigan image that we've seen for so long. We want to show diverse representations of motherhood, of families, of breastfeeding. And for us it's all about real moms. So all of our models are real moms. That woman really is breastfeeding her child and we don't want moms to have to apologize for breastfeeding. They are, moms are badass and they should be treated as such.F Geyrhalter: Totally. And it's a very empowering brand I think overall and that comes through. And I did not want my statement to be misleading about the model slash mom on the homepage because as you go deeper into the brand, it gets extremely diverse and I loved that very photorealistic and life realistic and Zeitgeist, on par with to the Zeitgeist photography, because I think it is really leading your brand in a certain way. But now that you went, so first of all, you work with Clif Bar, you must've gained a lot of amazing brand insights while working there and now having started very successfully, Milk Stork over the last couple of years and seeing it grow and going through that rebranding effort. What does branding mean to you today?K Torgersen: Even today, branding is, it's a reflection of my promise. My promise, my accountability to our moms and our clients. I think it's a reflection of our commitment and integrity. And I also think we are not the only ones that own the Milk Stork brand. Our moms and our companies own it. Branding is fueled by love and connection and it's when moms are posting boxes, their boxes of Milk Stork, they own the brand as much as I do. And for them it is a reflection of their commitment to their family and to their ambition. So it's a community, the branding becomes like the hub of our community. It's the heart and soul of our company.F Geyrhalter: And that is exactly what I always preach. Just as you said it really, really well and in a different way, but the heart and soul, that's what a brand is. That's what it comes down to. But I love the idea that it's fueled by love. That's when you know you have a brand when it keeps giving back at all times and you put something out and it keeps giving back. Was there a time early on where, you did surveys, or you asked moms or you kind of like an early customer data and you said, "You know what I'm going to do, I'm going to totally go against what I just heard." If a staff would have said moms and employers are not willing to spend $170 on shipping breast milk ever, that's not going to happen. Or was there anything like that where you heard some, resentment or you got some data and you're like, "You know what? I hear you, but I'm going the totally opposite direction." You were successful doing so.K Torgersen: In the early days I got a lot of sideways looks when I was trying to find vendors or getting corporate insurance and they're like, "Oh, making a company that ships breast milk. Why would you want to ship breast milk?" So, I did not do a lot of customer research because at that point I really was the consumer myself. I was a working mom who had to travel and I was trying to breast feed my twins. And I was living and breathing it with all of my friends who were also having kids and trying to maintain their commitment to their careers. So I wasn't lacking for data. I think it was all qualitative coming from the people that I, that were in my work, my circle. But I can't tell you how many times I got the look. When I'm saying, "Oh, I'm going to start a breast milk shipping company." And getting that look of like, "What the hell are you talking about?" It still happens. If I meet somebody and they're like, "Oh, what do you do?" "Oh, I started my own company. We ship breast milk." You just get that look of like, "That's absurd." I get it all the time. I still get it.F Geyrhalter: Yeah, no, I know. I'm sure. I'm sure. What is... I think this is directly linked to the brand conversation we had a minute ago and I think I might have an idea of what it could be and you know this coming up because I forewarned you, but I love that idea of when you create a brand, and for me personally, when I create print strategies with my clients. To kind of at the end of the day to really sit together and think about, "If there's only one word that we could use to describe our brand or maybe two, right? What would it be?" It's kind of like, in a way, people say the North star, they call it brand DNA, but really it's like that singular word that would encompass everything. Like the philosophy, the design, what do you call the heart and soul, that the love of a brand. What would be that one word for Milk Stork?K Torgersen: Yeah. It's really, it's a made up word. It's mom badassery. Yeah, I don't know how else, it's almost more of a feeling than it is a word.F Geyrhalter: It is a lot like mom empowerment, but just much more badass.K Torgersen: Yeah. Yeah. I always say that working breastfeeding moms are like star athletes. They have this incredible physical commitment that they have made, this incredible kind of mental commitment that they've made, they have this kind of deep well of grit. I mean, if you think of how many times if you're breastfeeding five to eight times a day and doing it for a year, it's a huge venture of endurance. So I think they're complete warriors.F Geyrhalter: Absolutely. Absolutely. No, I absolutely agree with you. And it's really, really great to see a company like yours make it and make it so quickly and be... I mean, you are, at this point, it's not only moms who come with open arms, it's Fast Company named you one of the most innovative companies for last year. And the press as much as employers are running towards the brand with open arms. So yes, on the one hand you hit the Zeitgeist perfectly for a lot of reasons. But even if you wouldn't have, even if this would have happened 10 years ago, it would have still taken off, it would've just taken longer. But I'm really grateful for what you're doing and even more so from a brand perspective, how you do it. It takes a lot to understand and with your rebranding, I'm sure a lot of that happened, to understand what the actual essence is of a brand like yours. And the mom badassery is exactly that. I heard you say this and I'm not sure where but, you said, and I'm solely paraphrasing, and you can correct me, "When you become a mom, you figure out what you do on the go, yet you're expected to be an expert on everything from the get go that has to do with that child."K Torgersen: Yeah.F Geyrhalter: And I think entrepreneurship is a lot like that. And I love that idea that, and everyone says, "Well yeah, if you have a company it's like it's like your new baby." But, really that, how you actually explained that, and that is always the strange thing becoming a parent and it's like suddenly you have to be the expert on every single thing about bringing up a kid and what a kid needs. And I mean, there are so many multifaceted elements to it and it is very much like entrepreneurship. Now that you went through this and you had to become an expert at everything or be smart about it and outsource as much as you can before you grow.K Torgersen: I like that.F Geyrhalter: It's kind of like that's the toddler stage, right? At that point you can actually, all right now we have a real human being we can do something with and we can outsource certain elements. It's very much with a startup. It's really hilarious to actually think about that parallel, year after year. Do you have one piece of brand advice for founders, perhaps even female founders, as a takeaway from everything that you've learned in the last years? I mean, it must be a massive amount, but is there something where you just feel like, "You know what, this is something that I learned and I would love to share that with people."K Torgersen: Well, one is kind of just a, I think if you, to those who are setting forth to start something or have an idea for something, it sounds so incredibly silly, but get your logo. Get a logo that you... Get, make it so you can see it. So you can see this thing that you're going to create. You can hold it. And I, one of the first things we did was we made business cards and it sounds, but it, it sounds so silly, but it was such a kind of talisman almost for making it, for kind of holding that and holding the inspiration in my pocket. Kind of my secret side hustle that I was working on. So that's one thing. And that I think the other thing is that you just have to make your brand contagious. The branding has to be, you have to love it, it has to move you, it has to make you feel really proud about what you're doing. And if it's not doing that, then I don't think it's hitting the mark. It should be a reflection of your pride in your endeavor.F Geyrhalter: I love everything you said, including the pun at the end with Hitting The Mark. So thank you for that. That is, no, that is absolutely correct. And I did hear you say somewhere else too that you advised founders to first do what they really love. So meaning, you're going to have, like with a baby, right? There are 40,000 things you can be doing, right? What is the thing that you actually really enjoy, master that. So if you actually come from marketing and if you actually enjoy that, and I'm sure that's why you're so driven behind the idea of first they came up with the name, then I created the logo, then I put it in the business card. And like all of this kind of like fueled you to keep going. Some others might really enjoy the idea of solving operations, which I know for a company like yours must've been a huge thing, right?K Torgersen: Yeah.F Geyrhalter: But, but everyone has their thing and whatever their thing is just to not get sidetracked but all the other 20,000 puzzle pieces that they need to put together. But just focus on one thing you really enjoy and do it first for your company because it's going to fuel you to keep going. And I think that's really wise and it's really important. And I love that you said that on another show. Listeners, many of whom will not happen to be in the stage of breastfeeding at this point or will ever get there. But many actually own their own businesses and I'm sure many fell in love with what you do. What would you like for them to be doing right this minute to support or benefit from your venture?K Torgersen: I just think, let's all together work to normalize breastfeeding. So if you see a woman breastfeeding in public... I think there's so much imposed shame with breastfeeding, unfortunately. And I think we all have to kind of check ourselves on that. So I just, my hope is that, that there's an understanding of how challenging that first year of parenthood is, especially from others. It's hard for dads too, for sure and partners as well. But for moms in particular, give that mom a high five because she is, if she's just had a baby and she's in the trenches and she's doing an incredibly important job. So I just think give credit where credit is due.F Geyrhalter: That's great. Yep, absolutely. And go to milkstork.comK Torgersen: I think the other thing is, yeah, if you are still working in a company and they are not offering family friendly benefits or they are looking to, every company should offer Milk Stork if they have traveling employees. Moms should never pay for Milk Stork when they're traveling for work. Never ever, ever. Their company should.F Geyrhalter: Kate, thank you so much for having been on the show. I think every listener and myself, we now know how busy obviously, your life is with numerous babies including Milk Stork. Thanks for having been on the show. I'm so lucky right now that I have had only female entrepreneurs and founders on the show for as long as I can think of. I think for the last like 10 or 15 episodes, it's so great. But we appreciate your time and your insights and I'm really excited to, no pun intended to see Milk Stork takeoff even more in the future.K Torgersen: Thank you so much. It's been a complete joy to be on.F Geyrhalter: Thank you. I appreciate it.

KEYNOTES DISCUSSED:I'm doing all of the work around protecting my energy and being in the highest vibration by putting the routines and rituals into my day, the breathwork, the work in just sitting and being still in the environment. (04:47)I asked the campers to journal and think about what it is that they loved about their product, about their service, about their business, and write it a love letter because that gets you back to the belief, back to why are they doing this. (06:37)So, we talked about, I was her ideal client customer. She knew immediately that this was for me and that when you're very, very clear on who it is that you serve, and who it is that you need to be in conversation with, that needs what you have. (12:07)I want to give you a strategy that makes you feel really good about what it is that you're doing. (14:24)So at the end of the day, the Money YOUR Way bootcamp really showed us, and from the comments and the conversations that were going on, is it's more than just an action step. (18:48)LEARN MORE ABOUT THE CONTENT DISCUSSED…No Boss Talk:https://nobosstalk.comThe Camp Elevate Facebook Group:hereBeth’s Instagram:@bethholdengravesBeth’s website:https://www.bethholdengraves.comProfit HER Way Course:https://www.bethholdengraves.com/profitWHEN DOES IT AIR…November 25, 2019EPISODE TRANSCRIPT…Beth:Hello my friends and welcome back to ‘You're Not the Boss of Me’. This episode is something that I am so excited to chat with you about today, to just share what we are doing and creating over in Camp Elevate, which is our free Facebook group. You can find how to join us down in the show notes, but it's the camp elevate group.com. But here's the deal. This week I ran a Money YOUR Way free bootcamp and a lot of people probably jumped on thinking I was going to give this strategy, and I was going to have you do 17,000 reach-outs, or I was going to show you how to use your Instagram stories to get new leads coming your way. And there are so many cool strategies out there, I share those, I love them. But the first thing that I think we miss out on, and I just actually got a Facebook voice memo, I thought it was a text, so I was going to read it to you, it's from, one of my new ProfitHer Way Mastermind clients.I don't even like to say client, It's like friends, were already friends, and she stumbled upon me because of the podcast and is a legend in her industry and was just chatting with me on Facebook. I love to chat with you all on Facebook and Instagram. And she just said, “I'm succeeding, but everything else is falling aside and I'm just struggling with that. I listened to the glass ball episode”, and so what I told her was, I want you to shut down your computer and go watch a movie and hang out with no phone with your daughter and with your husband. And she was probably thinking, aren't you like a business coach or strategist or something? And this is, this is what you're telling me to do. But what's happened in, even in the five days we've worked together, and I'm going to actually tell you a little summary of what we did during this boot camp so that you can apply it to your business.And this works in any business. Honestly. And I'm not telling you that I'm the guru of these things. I'm telling you that this is the work that I'm currently doing. And so, I'm sharing the work that I'm doing because it feels aligned and it's working for me. And it's when I look back at growing my business, when I've been in this space that I'm going to talk to you about, has been when I have felt the very best. Meaning I have felt the very best about my business, and really about everything. Because I always talk about this, that one thing is not a number 10, meaning a 10 in business and a four in yourself care, or a two with your relationships, with your friendships, with your marriages, with your partners. We've got to work on that big wheel of how do we keep it all in an energetically aligned space that feels right and feels good.So I received this message and it was so awesome because she said, ”after I've started to do this work, I'm actually starting to think that maybe this Woo thing, this energy, this thing you keep talking about, might actually be working, because suddenly this week people are coming to me. They're asking me about what it is that I do, and I felt just so much different around my business”. So how does that happen? And like what am I talking about? Right? Because I have to say that once upon a time when I thought I knew more than everyone else in the world. Well, that's an exaggeration, but I don't think I was very coachable around this piece of it. I was very coachable around strategy. I wanted to hear like, what's working, what are the steps? But I never really followed that because when a mentor of mine said to me, well, when you followed those steps, when they say this, you say this, or you go over and comment 10 times and then you do X, Y, and Z, and then they're going to say, yes.Did you really do it? And did it really work? And I talk about the times when my business has really scaled and grown is when I'm super aligned with my message. I'm doing all of the work around protecting of my energy and being in the highest vibration by putting the routines and rituals into my day, the breathwork. The work in just sitting and being still the environment. Right? So, what we did over in camp this week, it was really cool because I decided I would call it Make Money YOUR Way bootcamp and people are like, I'm coming in, I want to make some money. Like you're going to show me the money over here in this camp. Well first of all, what happens when a group of people come together with one common goal? You start to have an energy of the group. And our camp energy has always been uplifting and inspiring, cheering for each other, and it's just, it's just a beautiful community and it's because of the beautiful women that are in there.And I'm really, really looking forward. I'll give it a little camp plug. We're choosing the dates now because I want all of you in summer camp. Like I miss summer camp. I want to hang out a real-life camp. So, I'm going to be sharing a little bit more of those details. Got a lot coming up in 2020; Real life summer camp, and I'm also launching the ProfitHer Way Mastermind, which the cart is open. The application process is open right now. If you go to BethHoldenGraves.com/Profit you can read all about what's going to happen in there. And I will share a little bit with you more about that after I talk about what we did in the Money YOUR Way bootcamp. So, a lot of new people joined in Camp Elevate this week. So, we had a lot of new energy and it started with the very first assignment. The very first challenge was for you to have gratitude.And so, I want you to do this gratitude around your business, a happy gratitude box where you're writing things down. And my friend Susan Hyatt calls it, I think her happy basket. And people are like, what do you mean we're going to make money this way? Yes, because I asked you to journal, and I'm saying you because I hope you're over there in Camp Elevate. But I asked the campers to journal and think about what it is that they loved about their product, about their service, about their business, and write it a love letter because that gets you back to the belief, back to why are they doing this? Why am I waking up every day and building this business? And having that belief in that love, and that gratitude around the opportunity, and whether it's the success now or success that's coming. That was a huge piece.And seriously, and I love keeping a business journal. I have written in every single page of my journal, what I've done on that day. And I'll even write like Facebook lives, or this or that, but I didn't do PDFs and printouts because I know how I feel when I'm like, Oh, I got to go print this out and then now what am I going to do with it? So, I want the habit and the routine and the ritual of this business journal. So, you can say, okay, I had a pretty rocking month. Like my numbers are great. I've made more money than I've ever made. That you can look back and you see, here's what I've been doing. I'll talk more about that journal as we go into more episodes, because I have, I don't have a specific formula, but I do put my gratitude in my journal.I do put my, what did I learn today? My personal development, two or three sentences. I kind of do a little affirmation and energy statement around where I'm going with my business, and then the activity, the inspired action. So, I asked everyone to, ‘Hey, write yourself a love letter’. So that was a really cool thing, and people were using lots of markers and stickers and we had all of the love letters out. And when you're feeling like, wow, I need to talk to somebody about this, like your energy is high around it. So, when you're feeling, and you guys, this works for a marriage, it works for a child, it works for your dog. When you're feeling depleted of energy, then at that time, why don't you sit down and go into gratitude and write it? Write that person, write that thing, a love letter, right?That's what gratitude does as well. When you stay in gratitude around things that, you start to have that belief and that energy, and it raises your vibration around it all. So that's what we did on the first day. And the second day, and there were little things, and I'm going to be offering the replay on this. It's going to actually come in an email sequence or series for people to actually go through this bootcamp. We're getting that ready. So, stay tuned for that. But the next day, what we talked about, let me go back. So, the first day we did talk about what's your big picture? Where do you see yourself in five years? And people have done that exercise a lot, but we talked about, I always like having a vivid imagination. We did the love letter and then we also talked about what kind of solutions, like as you're doing the love letter, what kind of solutions do you have around your product or your business, and why are you grateful for that?So, there were some pieces into that love letter. So then the next day I went into, so think about this, my friend Maryanne, when I lived in Michigan, she introduced me to Lululemon and it was like before Lululemon was really mainstream in the U S, and she was from Canada and had this little shop in her home. It started now, it's an amazing boutique shop. She has incredible things. It's called Ziva, Mayer and Franklin, Michigan. You should go take a look. But Marianne was during that season of my life, she was my person, like we ran every morning together. She was there through the babies, just like a beautiful human, and what a beautiful human she was, because the day that she had some Lululemon, she was selling Lululemon in her shop and I had never heard of it. And this is when Lululemon was still allowing, I think, small yoga studios in boutiques to carry their line.And I had never heard of Lululemon. I don't even think there were Lululemon stores in Michigan, or maybe even not in the U S. And she called me, and she was like, you've got to get over to my house. You have got to see what's in this box, it’s going to blow your mind. And if you have never loved a pair of workout pants, like I love Lululemon, you just have not lived. And I put them on. I think they were called the Groove, and I put them on, and I was like, Oh my gosh. I mean, your butt looks good, you feel good. They were amazing pants and still are. The only thing that I've tried. I like Athleta, but Lululemon is my go-to and yes, it is an indulgence, but wow, why would you wear something that falls down when you're like trying to do a squat or a downward facing dog?But anyway, my point of Marianne is this, when she was reaching out to me, she didn't go into like the details of why this was this beautiful fabric, and it had this, and the seam was this, and it was manufactured here and there and everywhere, and across the square, like detail, detail, detail. She basically just knew without question that I was on my way and I was going to pull out my credit card or cash for the most I'd ever spent on a pair of workout pants in my life because she knew without question this was for me. So, we talked about that, that I was her ideal client customer. She knew immediately that this was for me and that when you're very, very clear on who it is that you serve, and who it is that you need to be in conversation with, that needs what you have. Then your messaging and the power behind what you do, and how you share the stories and the testimonials, or when you're talking to your friend or your new acquaintance.So, I said, would that have been the same conversation if it was with my husband? She's saying, buy a pair of Lululemon workout pants. We'll, now he gets Lululemon because they make it for men and I put it in his closet, but Marianne went up, called him and said, Don, get over here. He's not her ideal person, right? So, this is what we did. Next is, we actually drew pictures, named our person and talked about these things. And when you're visualizing, and this is nothing new for you, marketers out there, avatar or whatever you want to call it, but I really wanted them to say, I have a friendship with your ideal person, or does she like to eat? What keeps her up at night and keeps her worried, or him or they, what is the last book that she read? Where does she want to go on vacation?Where is her dream, dream? Dream destination for, if she could take her husband on another honeymoon, or where does she shop for her food? Does she go to Costco or whole foods or both? And what are her favorite kinds of shoes? What magazines, did I say all this? What's her favorite podcast? I hope it's, ‘You're Not the Boss of Me’. So, we talked about this person and we got very, very clear, and we named her, and we drew a picture, and we gave the details, because when you have the gratitude for the business and then you have the details of this person, of this woman, of this man, of whomever it is, your message gets aligned. Right? Then we also did another thing, because you know I can't just give strategy without activity, so I'm going to whip through some of these things and you'll have to catch the replay email. and I'll make sure that if you're on my list for the podcast, if you're subscribed and you've opted in to one of one of my email lists, I'll make sure that you get it. But another thing that we did was, we did the belief, we talked about who it was, but then I said, I want to give you a strategy that makes you feel really good about what it is that you're doing.When you reach out, and this strategy that I love to use is, and it's genuine. If there's someone I want to talk to and share the details, and I think that hearing it might just open their eyes to what it is that I do. Like we talked about referrals and using referrals as a way to say to your friend, so I used an example of a friend of mine, who is a 10 like entrepreneur, someone who gets it, but had never looked at the Network Marketing thing. So, I said, you know, ‘Hey Sarah, can I borrow your brain for just a few minutes? Can you give me a time, I just need to borrow your brain? I want to get some feedback from you. I really, really respect your entrepreneurial journey and respect you professionally. Literally need just like 15 minutes of time.So when you ask a referral for an idea of who do you know, you are also spreading that happy message of; look at what we have onto that referral that they might just say, ‘Hey, well that might make sense for me to take a look at. And I said, there's a lot of people on your chicken list that if you go referral, they might have a referral for you. But at the end of the conversation you could also say, ‘well wow, have you ever considered this’? Like hello residual income or whatever it is, working part time, making a full-time income, whatever that is that you're sharing, it might be for them. So, we talked about a strategy of using referrals because I want people that are working with me, I want you to be creating the energy and vibration and the space for the work to happen.Having the gratitude around your business, but then taking some of this strategy and showing up and asking and talking and having conversations. And my big thing about scripts. Yes, some people are out there killing it with scripts, but I also think the people that are killing it with the scripts would kill it any other way. Meaning their energy is so high, their belief is so high. Their messaging is brief, it's spot on. But like we talked about in the beginning when I was talking about my friend, my new friend who said, I feel like people are just coming my way because she started to do the work. So, we also were doing, we did a breathing exercise, where at least six times during the day you lean your head back and did some breath work. I'll share a little bit more about that later on in another podcast, and we also did a little tapping exercise.I'm new to tapping, but tapping on your forehead, that says I am here. Like when your focus starts to go breath and I am here. So that was one of the things that we did as well, was adding the breathing a little bit of the tapping, the I am here, and a lot of people are like, okay, I'll give this a go. And I had more people, more campers reach out to me about the breathwork and that I am here than anything else. So that was really, really cool. And then the rest of the week we worked on building on that foundation, staying in the gratitude, staying with the breath, staying with the stopping every, at least six to eight times and doing the breath work, using creative strategies that feel aligned with who we are to have those. And then we talked about what the personal customer funnel looked like.How does it feel? The thing that is big is when you don't have clarity around how the messaging and how the flow of conversation goes, when it's just thrown out there, you know, blah blah blah, blah blah. Here's a video here. This, here's that. Oh my gosh, they want to order, what now? They have a question. What now? That confusion is not creating space for that new person to feel comfortable and aligned and ready to go with you. So that was a little bit about the Money YOUR Way boot camp, and we put it all together in the business journal. We kind of made it a full circle of how do you use this mindset work, the breath breathwork along with getting into activity? We made some lists of people that fit the ideal person. We talked about a lot of things over five days, as you can tell because I'm like trying to pack it in here on this podcast to get, because I like to keep these about 20-25 minutes.So, at the end of the day, the Money YOUR Way boot camp, really, really showed us, and from the comments and the conversations, that were going on, it's more than just an action step. It’s more than just let me send 7,000 messages and see who bites. It's about really leaning into who do I serve, who can I help, how can I be of service? Having the work around holding space, the breath work and being in gratitude, your vibration. You guys, I keep saying that, but I'm super into feeling where I am in the day. It just comes up and then those messages are well received. It seems that people are coming to you and maybe you didn't even change that marketing strategy. You just changed your own way of being. Have you ever been around someone that's like super crazy and Oh my gosh, I'm crazy? I'm crazy. I'm crazy.I'm crazy. And Awwwww - if feels so out of whack, like Oh my gosh, please let me just go over here in this corner. If you hear something, I'm recording at night and little Yogi snoring in the corner, so I didn't want to stop and edit. So, this is real life, dog snoring, me podcasting. We're like showing you the true colors here because normally I pull his rug out. So, I apologize for Yogi in advance, but most of you that see me live have heard me say, ‘Yogi, stop your snoring’. So, Yogi’s here snoring away. All right, so let me tell you about something. I'm really, really, really excited about what's happening for us. It’ really…after starting the podcast and working with my own team and also with private clients, it hit me that there was a need and I really felt not just a need but like a calling, so to speak.Like I felt this energy around putting a group of women like we have over in Camp Elevate together and having a space for us to do this work. So. what I'm envisioning, and I know will happen because I know what content and what people were bringing together because I'm bringing in outside coaches along with what I'm doing. And I want you to imagine a business that is energetically aligned with your mission and your vision, right? A mindset that's unshakeable, a daily routine that doesn't have you glued to your inbox and the tools for you to grow and thrive with your business and life. So, all that stuff about how to effortlessly have leads coming your way and how to never talk to friends and family about your business and make a zillion dollars. And how to use Instagram to sign up 472 people in three minutes. I'm a little bit exaggerating there, but if you've known me for more than 10 minutes, you know that I'm about making some serious business moves, but also making a life.Right? So. we're going to work on mindset. We're going to work on marketing strategies. We're going to work on rituals and routines. We're going to map it out. We're going to create the plan. We're going to have some accountability. We're going to read some beautiful things together. We are going to create a business. And if you're already a six-figure earner, then we're going to start to look at what's happening with your own network, with your team, and how can you help to keep them in that higher energy. And how do you keep yourself from being glued to your phone all the time but having massive success in your business and getting results. And how do you hang with this community of people that are here to uplift, inspire on days that you might not feel like it, helping you to raise it up and get into inspired action.That is all about what aligns with you, with your message, what you share, who you actually want to be in business, not who someone else thinks that you should be. So. we're going to be doing this. It starts 2020 but we're open now for your application, because like I said before, this is a curated community of women who are doing the work together, so it's not just come on in. It is are you committed to doing the work? Are you committed to seeing if even if it doesn't feel like it's a natural thing for you? If this feels different, let's see how that rolls your business along. How you get the results we're going to like. It's not just all you know, fun and let's have some meditation woo time. We are going to have aligned, inspired and lots of action around what that two-month, three-month, four-month, six-month, and five-year goal will be, and it is going to be so incredibly, incredibly…Gosh, what incredibly fun. I'm looking for this word because I'm so excited about this program, because I have been dreaming, planning and using these methods in these strategies for so many years. And finally, it's here. So, if you want to see if this is a fit for you, go on over to BethHoldenGraves.com./Profit. You can fill out the application, you can take a look at all that we're doing, and I cannot wait. If you have some questions for me, just pop them over in my Facebook inbox or over on Instagram and I'll be happy to set up a time to chat with you via zoom so we can talk about the program, see if it's a fit for you. All right you guys, so that was Money YOUR Way. I'm excited for ProfitHER Way. And I also want to just end with reading a couple of my favorite reviews from the week and I can't thank you guys enough for doing the subscribe, sending in the review.That's what puts us up on Apple iTunes. That's what makes me happy. Makes me get on here. I mean it's, I thought it was so much later. It's only 10 30pm. I'm like, I'm doing this podcast. It's like one in the morning, it's only 10:30pm, at night. But when you're listening to this, I hope it's Monday morning at six or 7:00 AM when it first drops in. So, let's take a look at those reviews and then we will finish this up.This review is from Bree Loves Fasting, and she says, wow, this is a five-star review. Thank you, Bree! And you guys have to check out Bree over an Instagram because she has a great feed and she says, “Wow, I am so glad that I found this podcast at this point in my life. Timing is everything. If you haven't hit 40, still listen, your life is a reflection of your choices and programming. What do you want in life? This is a great resource to help you figure that out. Thank you for your energy, Beth. I can't wait to see how your journey unfolds.”Well, thank you Brie, and I love seeing your journey as well, and I'm going to read one more. Oh, my goodness. This is from Joy is Vibrant. I love that name! And she says this, “This episode helped me realize that it is on my way. I need to believe on all levels that I deserve to be happy, have what I want, and be in all of the places I want to be. I do know what to do, and was for a while, but I stalled and cut out and shut down. Now I know I need to do the work and keep believing that I am worthy and deserving.You are worthy and deserving Joy is Vibrant! And thank you for the five-star review! And I love when content, that was from the content that we had last week with Deserve Level Rising. When content really pushes people out there to say, ‘yes, yes, this is for me and I am going to do what it takes and I am back in action because I deserve it’, right? That vision has to be so strong. And revisit it, use your imagination, get into that quiet space.And I'll end this episode with what we did in the last session of Money YOUR Way, is that I encouraged everyone to have in their routine that quiet space, whether it's meditation, devotion, or just sitting in a beautiful space in your brain for five minutes in the morning, and five minutes in the evening, to make sure that you always have that gratitude every single day. Your personal development read daily.Write that down. And finally, for me, one of the most important things that I do every single day is I send a love letter, a love text. I send to somebody, gratitude and tell them why I'm so grateful for them. And what they have done for me, and that's something that I started to do. I heard it on a podcast. I think I'm on day 42 of it and it feels so good. So those are the little things that create big things that create big changes in your life. And I hope today you loved this episode. I love sharing with you and if you are over in that Money YOUR Way Camp Elevate challenge, I want to say thank you. Thank you for showing up. Thank you for your energy and thank you for being a part of this insanely amazing sisterhood and community. And if you're not there yet, I want to see you in Camp Elevate.All right you guys, I'll see you next week. Thanks so much for listening. You go out there, and if you can dream it, and if you can feel it, and if you can journal about it, and imagine it, take that action, and just do it.Thanks so much for hanging out with me today and 'You're Not the Boss of Me'. I'm hoping that you've found one thing that you will do today that will allow you to move forward to that big, audacious goal. And I have a favor to ask of you, and that is leaving me a five-star review over in iTunes. Every single week I read your reviews. I love hearing what you have to say, and it allows me to bring you more, to get more people to interview that are doing the thing, breaking the glass ceilings, creating what they crave, and helping you with your game plan. So leave me a five-star review, and when you do, I enter you to win the, 'You're Not the Boss of Me' swag, so make sure you leave it and we'll reach out to you if you're the winner. Thanks so much for hanging with me today and we'll chat with you soon. 

Right Then and There by De-Va'Je

Right Then and There by De-Va'Je

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Dr. Michelle Collie on the show to discuss the importance of outcomes and how they can make a difference in your practice. Michelle became the owner of Performance Physical Therapy. Under Michelle’s leadership, Performance has grown to a practice with 13 locations in Rhode Island and Massachusetts and over 200 employees.   In this episode, we discuss: What is the definition of outcomes as it relates to physical therapy. How to use patient outcomes and business outcomes to drive your business forward Using outcomes data to increase your referrals A sneak peek into Michelle’s keynote speech at The Outcomes Summit And so much more!   Resources:   The Outcomes Summit: Use the discount code LITZY Performance Physical Therapy Performance PT on Facebook Performance PT on Twitter Performance PT on Instagram   For More on Dr. Collie:   Born and raised on a sheep farm in New Zealand, Dr Michelle Collie spent her childhood years training pet sheep, riding motorbikes, and eating enough lamb to last a lifetime. She earned her bachelor’s degree in Physiotherapy from the University of Otago in 1994 then moved to Rhode Island due to the United States Physical Therapy shortage. In 2003 while pursuing a Master of Science and Doctorate of Physical Therapy from Massachusetts General Hospital’s Institute of Health Care Professionals, Michelle became the owner of Performance Physical Therapy. Under Michelle’s leadership, Performance has grown to a practice with 13 locations in Rhode Island and Massachusetts and over 200 employees.   Michelle is an APTA member and serves as the chair of the private practice PR and Marketing committee. Performance Physical Therapy has received a number of awards over the years for its business success and philanthropy, the highlight being the recipient of the 2014 Jane L Snyder, Private Practice of the Year. She is a board-certified Orthopedic Clinical Specialist    Read the full transcript below:   Karen:                         00:00   Hey Michelle, welcome back to the cloud cast. I'm happy to have you back. Michelle:                      00:04               It's great to be here. Karen, thank you for having me. Karen:                         00:07               Of course. So today we're going to talk about outcomes, specifically outcomes within your clinic and with your patients. But I think before we get into the meat of this talk, I would love to hear from you what your definition of outcomes is. Michelle:                      00:24               Well, um, hopefully I'm not quoted by the Webster dictionary or anyone else out there, but for me in my practice is a physical therapist. To me, outcomes of the results that are numbers and they could mean practice management outcomes such as how many patients we see visits in an episode in here. They could be outcomes related to patient satisfaction such as your net promoter score or how many Google reviews did you get. Or they could also be clinical outcomes based on such things as the specific clinical outcomes means, Mitt measures that we use, whether it's related to the Oswestry or a disability scales. So those are just examples of some of the outcomes. But I think outcomes are like the results, tangible numbers of behind them. So you can actually give some, um, objective measures behind what these outcomes are. Karen:                         01:19               Right. And you S uh, I like that you kind of put those outcomes into different categories because when I hear outcomes I just get incredibly overwhelmed and think, well there's, there could be so many. Right? So thanks. No. So now we kind of have a defined how do we measure outcomes within our practice? And maybe you can give some examples of what you guys do, but is there, do you have any standardized ways that you are measuring these different outcomes? Michelle:                      01:50               So again, we can classify it into different ways and I will bring out one, one methodology actually is when it comes to practice management outcomes, that's something you hear often, especially with the benchmarking program that happens through the private practice section. We start looking at outcomes and using numbers to benchmark against each other. And those are things such as, um, how many, how many visits in an episode of care or how much revenue do you gain per patient visit? So these are things that are very much financial and operational defined and how you figure out business wise how well you're doing. So that's one side I'm going to flip to the other side, which I think is much more exciting to talk about for most people and that's actually our clinical outcomes. How good a job or how well are we doing when it comes to treating our patients? Michelle:                      02:47               And there's such a drive now to looking at our outcomes as far as our clinical outcomes and what does that truly mean? Does that mean that my practice or Misa physical therapists get someone better and less visits or at least amount of time or with more intervention or different combination when, how much better do we get someone? So the outcomes to me relate around time, which could also be actual number of visits or encounters and also is how much bitter someone gets. If I'm treating a runner and they, our goal is, Hey, I want to run a marathon in four hours, am I being sucks? Can I get them back to being able to do that? And can I do that just as well as not just the next physical therapist, but other fitness, health care provider, whoever that is. And how can these outcomes? Michelle:                      03:42               So how do measuring outcomes help to drive your practice? So I guess this is a really, what you're counting down to was the why. Why bother doing this? And so yeah, this is getting to the why, which is the most fundamental part is by measuring our outcomes and helps us differentiate. Now when we can differentiate ourselves, it makes it easier to do marketing and that marketing can, it can impact us in different ways. We can use it to market to get more patients. We can use it to negotiate, which is marketing messaging with a payer, whether that's an insurance company or whether someone's paying cash for services that we now have outcomes, which is data to help him messaging and differentiate, here's what I can do or my practice can do. Um, so I think there's many different levels, um, that it relates to, but it's all comes back to marketing and messaging and being able to differentiate and communicate to the consumer and will the payer about what our services can provide. Michelle:                      04:54               And can you give an example of how you, you and your practice might use your outcomes to market and you can choose if you want to market to a payer market to the general public, I'll let you choose. So we've done a whole bunch of things that our practice and hit a lot of success. Um, one is marketing and this is probably the easiest one for people to understand marketing to physicians. So with the data that we have, I can go to a physician [inaudible] physician group and say, Hey, here are end results. If you, when you refer a patient to us, we're going to get them this much theatre and here's what the national benchmarks are. So we're actually proving to you that we're going to get the results that you want and guess what? I can and we're actually gonna do it at least visits and what the national standards are. Michelle:                      05:51               Now I can compare as cells to um, we, I compare as to practice nationally or regionally or even over time. Look, we put these new systems in place or we started try needling or using this new blood flow restrictive therapy or whatever modalities or treatment methodologies we're using and say, because of this, now we're now we have the data to show how much better we're getting patients. And then for us it's actually really helped to Provo provide actually data to referral sources and they can actually say, Oh, so we're going to seam patients to you because you're actually going to provide solutions and get our patients better. It's not just about the fact that Oh, you've got more clinics or you are open on Saturday mornings and no one else is, or you had fancy equipment. I mean these are true differentiators, not just things we can do to make ourselves look better. Michelle:                      06:50               I think that's the big thing. I think, you know, years ago I always used to think that marketing and promoting your practice was just simply about relationships. And if people like you, they'll send you patients and patients like you, they'll come back to see you and all those. Although those things are true too a little bit when you've actually got the data behind you and really meant, helps you tell a story and say, Hey, this is why we should be treating your patients or to the general public. This is why you should be coming to physical therapy to help with your back pain or your ankle sprain or your pelvic health problem or your dizziness. You've got the numbers to show that we will get you better. Karen:                         07:31               Yeah, and I think it's great to use numbers because these are our facts, right? You're not fudging these numbers. This is the actual data that is coming out of your clinic. So I think it's great to be able to then instead of just have the data and say, Oh great, look what we did. But you want to use those outcomes in order to market your clinic. Michelle:                      07:56               Exactly. And I think the other nice side about it as when you're using the data to market, it actually changes the culture within your clinic and within your practice. Karen:                         08:07               That was literally my next question was how did outcomes affect that people working day to day in your practice? Michelle:                      08:13               Yeah, well I think it's really helped to make us practice and every visit make all of our clinicians and their patient care coordinators and our assistance and our exercise specialists realize, yes, we're very concerned about customer service and giving, um, you know, having beautiful clinics and all of these other aspects. But at the end of the day, we need to make sure that every moment we're spending with patients is designed to get them back to be doing the things they want to do in this got a show in the data. Yeah. And I think it's helped to really drive our clinic and the kind of care that we're providing. So it's not just about, Oh, I'll collect the data and now I'm going to get paid more by an insurance company. Or now people are going to come and see us or doctors or refer. It actually drives the culture within a clinic to ensure that you, I always feel like we've got rid of complacency which can sometimes creep and practices. Yeah. And how do, Karen:                         09:14               how do you use this, the outcomes data to kind of align with your vision or the or the mission of your practice? What would you say to other clinicians when it comes to aligning the data with the mission and vision? Michelle:                      09:30               Well, I think that's really a great point you bring up because people often say, well how do you know what to measure and why are you doing this? And I think it always starts with your strategic plan and figuring out, first of all, what is your purpose? Which is like your greater good. Why do you, why you in practice and what's it all about? And then thinking, okay, well then what's their, what's their mission, what are EMV values? And once you figured those things out, then you can challenge yourself and say, well how am I going to prove it and how am I going to measure it? So that when someone says to me, Oh, your purpose is about having a healthy, fulfilling the film happy community, and you're helping your community to be in that way, how are you going to truly measure that? Michelle:                      10:13               That's what you're doing? So I think you have to start with that strategic over powering, look at your vision, your mission, your values and names going on. How am I going to measure that and not the other way round. Mmm. We see like, yes, we're going to look after our community and then we're going to use innovative results given here and now it's like, well, how are we going to prove that? I'm like, the only way you can prove that you're getting results driven, innovative care is by showing the data because otherwise it's just talk [inaudible]. Karen:                         10:48               Yeah, yeah. No, that's great. As you're saying this, I'm thinking about my mission for my company and like, Hmm, yeah, okay, Michelle:                      10:59               how am I going to measure this now? And it's not, you're not going to come up with it overnight and there's no perfect way to do it because this is quite a new area for physical therapists or we're only just part of this evolving healthcare environment where payments changing and with payment changes the messaging of how we're promoting what we do, but it is turning into much more a shift away from fee for service and much more to say like we're paying for the outcomes or the experience, not how many visits or how many units of charge per visit or how many visits and an episodic here we should be advocating improving our stamps for our outcomes. Neat. Good. The only way we can do that as some health, pulling out what clinical outcomes and how we're gonna measure those and basic jet. Karen:                         11:50               Yeah. And how do your outcomes from clinic aligned with Michelle:                      11:54               your vision and your mission? Like what is the mission of your clinic and how do you, how do your outcomes revolve around that? The way our mission is about providing innovative, results-driven, physical therapy services for a community. And the way that we measure the outcomes is that our goal is to get, use the hashtag better, faster. So we're all about getting people better, more better, and doing it in the least number of visits we possibly can. Now it's interesting because there's many practices out there, and I'm often challenged by this and this is where I butt heads with media, other people in private practice and like, but we get paid per visit. Why would you want to see people enlist visits? And I've had some really fun heated debates with some colleagues and peers over this Mike. But if we can do it and least visits, isn't that the right thing to do? Michelle:                      12:45               And then doesn't then allow us to advocate and, and, and prove ourselves and our value. And they're like, what? How can you afford to do that? Because you're basically sacrificing money because you're going to do it and least visits. So it's been a fun debate to have because we've had it now for many years. And I think the ties of changing, because I've been now in a position to actually go to payers and insurance companies and actually hit the data and say, look, we are doing at least visits. So let's talk about how we do some cost sharings. Let's talk about different ways to reimburse because we're doing it and at least visits and uncles to go to the outcomes to show that we're getting people just as bitter or more. That's really poor English with that. So I came up here. Yeah, that's okay. We get the gist of it. Michelle:                      13:35               So one of your outcome measures might be how many visits are in an episode of care? So we had the keys that we use, we use visits in an episode of care and the other one we use is the clinical more clinical um, change. So traditionally we've used photo focused on therapeutic outcomes of your system. Um, which has been great because that will, that will differentiate patients based on payer, um, diagnosis, body part, all of these things. So we can say, Hey, for a bag spine or all the Pedic on Euro or upper extremity, here's how, here's the change that we're getting in function and we can actually beat back and compare ourselves to other practices both in our region and nationally as well. You can do, it's an interesting time because now with MIPS and again I realized the assaults and people out there who don't know if MIPS are going to happen and we still don't have a lot of final rules, but again, we're still in with Mets. We're still using different, um, standardized clinical outcome tools that we're all very familiar with and I'm looking at opportunities to benchmark not just against it within their own practices, but between each other's practices as well. Karen:                         14:54               Yeah, I think that's great. I love looking at it that way of, of figuring out your mission and then how are you going to measure it and then taking those measurements and using it for a whole bunch of different things. Michelle:                      15:07               Well, I think that to me that's been the most interesting thing in our practice. It's, we've got this mission and a vision, which is what you have to start with. And your purpose. We've created the tools to measure it well. We've figured out what tools and how to measure it and it's, it's really helped evolve the culture of that practice. It's helped us with how we onboard our staff. It's helped us with how we recruit new people. It's helped us when we take on students. So it's had a big impact on every part of their practice. And, um, rather than just, you know, how just rather than just how we treat a patient, an everything embodied bodied, everything. Karen:                         15:47               That's awesome. And now you had mentioned photo and coming up in October, October 23rd to the 25th, and Knoxville, Tennessee is the outcomes summit. Uh, and you are one of the keynote speakers. So can you give us just a little sneak peek, a little taste of what your keynote speech is going to be about? Michelle:                      16:07               Well, so the keynote speak is all about on marketing with outcomes data, helping people understand the value, um, for outcomes data. When marketing your practice, I'll use my personal story because I think it helps to show that I'm, you know, really at the end of the day, just a little farm girl from a very remote part of the world. And um, so if, if I can use data to Mark it with anybody can, and I also like to talk a lot about the fear because I think there's a lot of fear out there. PTs are often scared. One of my deck data doesn't show what I want it to show. Karen:                         16:44               Right? Then what happens Michelle:                      16:46               then what happens? So yeah, that's like the million dollar question. And then what happens is people run away from fear and then they don't do it and so they're not moving forward. So I definitely had plenty of fears when I first started put up though the date and say what a for not as good as we think we are. Well, I find it interesting that it's really abandoned teach and if you're following what your purpose and your mission is and the results are going to happen because this changes all of the messaging and it impacts your entire culture. But I think it's a journey of how to address the fear of what if my data isn't as good as what I think it can be. Because when it comes to marketing, yeah, I can have beautiful brushers and amazing weird site. I can be open all different hours and think those things are going to differentiate me and they will a little bit. Michelle:                      17:37               But at the end of the day, I do think it comes back to data is the real differentiator and if you want to get serious about marketing and messaging what your practice does, and I think this goes, now I'm going to get on a, and this goes for our app proficiency as a whole and list were privy. At least we're proving that we really are the base caregivers for muscular skeletal and your a muscular disorders and diseases. Then we, you know, we're still lists, we're just not doing a good job, but at the moment like how do we differentiate ourselves from the other healthcare providers and fitness people out there who also say we'll take care of someone's back pain or help them get trained for a five K. so again, we have to, as a profession, as a whole, use that data and be comfortable using it to prove proven value. Karen:                         18:31               I love it and it sounds like it's going to be a great talk. So all of the people who are going to the outcomes, the clinical outcomes summit are in for real treat. Um, so that's awesome. Now, uh, before we, and here I have a one more question and that's what advice would you give to yourself as a new graduate? Fresh out of PT school. So that farm girl from New Zealand, she just graduated from PT school. What advice, knowing where you are now in your life and career, would you give yourself back then? Michelle:                      19:11               Oh my God, it's so much advice I would give. I think it would be about the key advice I would say is that your, we all have fear. We're all nervous of things. Whether it's, Oh, I'm going to make a mistake when I treat a patient or I'm going to have a practice that's not successful, or I'm going to open my mouth and sound like an idiot, but we're all gonna do it in. That's fine. And the only way to conquer those fears is just push through it and just keep, keep moving forward. So I think it would just be letting myself know at that shy Tinder age in my early twenties that, um, all the challenges that I had, just the same of everyone else's. And so yeah, just put on your big girl panties. They would say base the fears and move forward. Sorry. Karen:                         19:57               Great advice. And now where can people find you, whether it be on social media and or your clinic? Michelle:                      20:04               Um, so we have a multi clinic practice based out of Rhode Island with some clinics in Massachusetts as well. So performance ptri.com is our website and all their social media handles all reflect their performance. ptr.com P t@ptri.com. So, um, feel free to check out her website and we are you on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, all of those, all of those places. Karen:                         20:30               Awesome. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for coming back onto the podcast. I appreciate it. You gave me a lot to think about, so thanks so much. Thanks very much, Karen and everyone, thanks so much for tuning in. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes!  

Hunters HD Gold is the Official Eye Wear of USPSA and Steel Challenge anecdotally I have seen their eyewear showing up all over competition shooting starting with where I first saw them at the PCC and Rimfire Championships. If you are aware of Hunters HD Gold odds are you have met my guest Brian Conley. Speaker 1: [inaudible].  Speaker 2: Hey everybody, and welcome back to the Cindy cast on this episode we've got Brian Connolly from hunter's HD gold. They're the official eyewear of USPSA and still challenged. And anecdotally I've been seeing their eyewear showing up all over competition shooting, starting with where I saw them first at the piece of seat and rimfire championships. If you're aware of hunter's HC gold, odds are you've met Brian.  Speaker 3: He's joining us now. How are you doing Brian? Hey, what's going on? Gosh, it's been a, it's been too long since we've been in the dirt together. It's been over a year at this point. It has and I'm have not been back to, um, where we met and um, it, Lucas all arranged so far yet this year. That was a pretty long ago. Yeah. I mean, just to be straight, I don't think anybody has, I mean, I went there twice last year, so I'm not missing, I logged 21 days in that house last year. Well, I never got the pleasure of I'm staying in the house. I had to drive to Warsaw every day, so I got it. Yeah, it's um,  Speaker 4: I, oh, sorry. I got my dog, Lucy here. Who is going to come here? Cool. Get in there. You're going to take a little break. Come on. Oh, you're all over my stuff and we're going to have to drop an edit in here. You're working loose Kendall up. There you go. All. Alright. She is a  Speaker 3: business associate and my secret lover, but um, she's a pain in the ass sometimes. All right, so here we go. So yeah, you know, Lucas, um, it's an interesting thing. They, um, you know, I was involved. So last year I was involved with um, strategic mash design and a couple of other companies that were doing major events and um, I got into it on the, well they wanted me to do media, which translated to, would you also do our prize tables? Wow. Yeah. So I did six last year and um, and then, you know, and it was, I learned a ton. It was totally worth the, the mental exercise. And at the same time, I don't think you'll see me doing that again. I can understand that. I actually had to, um, had the joy of walking a prize table for somebody this year when they weren't gonna be able to walk it.  Speaker 3: And I decided that was the first and last time I want to do that as well. So yeah, I definitely have my, I want to talk about prices with you a little bit cause you guys have been really gracious, but you also have kind of a spin on that that I really like. Um, so then we can talk about a little bit later in the cast as we get deeper into, um, hunter's ht gold specifically. But tell me before we do that a little bit about you, like you started out in insurance, is that what I've, I'm gathering, I've been in retail management since I was, um, 21. Okay. And I, I'm 48 now. Got It. I used to tell everybody I sold everything buddy insurance back. And then I had a friend of mine who was, um, owned an insurance company and he says, Hey, well go get your, go get your license and everything and this and this. He had a  Speaker 5: practice. He was starting up an insurance. I was like, well sure, why not? So 50 exams to the hardest test. I still keep those. I'm insurance licensed current today. He'd taking the ced seat CD be correct. Can't talk, taking the credits every two years to keep my license current in the state of Alabama. So I've got a backup plan. If I ever got to go back and sell insurance, I'm not going to lose my license cause I think now they're requiring a lot more to get your license and insurance, everything else. So every couple of years I walked back into a classroom and take eight hours of credits and um, fulfill those. But based on how everything is going now, I don't really think I'm gonna have to go back down that path. And You Thompson know you guys are having a great run and uh, well so tell me like how do you go from now you, you were born and raised in Alabama, right?  Speaker 5: Yeah, I was born in Tuscaloosa and in 92, um, moved up in Birmingham. I had been in Birmingham area every since. And, um, you know, I got, you know, like I said, I went to school and, um, at the university and, um, when in criminal justice and had a path set there for me but never really finished. Once I get into retail sales, um, got a call from the local police department that I was gonna go work for. And um, they tell me my starting salary, I think back there was going to be 16, five, and at that time in retail management as a young manager at 21 years old, I'd made I think 30 something thousand dollars. So I might've, I made a commitment in our decision and saying, well, I'm not gonna, um, turn around and look back. I can make this much more money and not get shot at.  Speaker 5: And, um, then that's kind of the path that shows every since I got that. And I would, I would imagine there's more than one human being that made that calculation in their lifetime between laundry is one of those things that, um, I've never been in a situation where I haven't had gainful employment based on being in that kind of environment. Had to change jobs a lot because in retail management, the way you may got a pay raise was getting recruited by somebody else certain or changing in a career path to sell something different. So, um, lots of, um, lots of training through that, through the years being able to go from different positions. I've managed and sold everything from, um, let me see, you know, video contents backward guy started in 92 selling big springs and camcorders and after five years that company closed up, they wrote about Tandy Corporation went to go manage your radio check and then I didn't like selling the parts that made the big screens when I was selling the big screen.  Speaker 5: So I got out of that and went to another type of sales. But I've managed everything from targets to the best buys to being in the wireless industry for multiple years. And then, um, then I was in of course like we just talked about selling them insurance with a, um, insurance agency. And then, um, my current wife's ex husband at the time, you know, called me about wanting to do their marketing and, um, stuff for the lab that I worked for now. Yeah. And, um, that was kind of an interesting blend, but we had a great working relationship and, um, started doing marketing in the lab business. So I went from the selling retail to, I'm talking directly to ophthalmologist, not Tom Matricis about how to, um, improve their sales in their field and quote unquote selling the accessories that were up. Because in the optical world, the essential, these are, you know, ars photochromics colors, tans, anything, you know, something besides just the normal thing that insurance is going to cover.  Speaker 5: And I did that for four years and then, um, got involved with, um, I'm all over the place. But then I got involved with, um, two other friends that were, one was a Napkin kinda strain. One was an older gentleman that I've known forever or 15 years now that was in the wireless industry. And we went together and bought some hunting property. And that was in back in, um, 2013. Um, place called triple forks hunting. We do executive hunts and stuff like that. So I had all these tools at the lab and I wanted to make myself a hunting lands and I wanted to, you know, something to enhance my hunting, you know, for what I was doing. Cause I had, um, prescription outwear and I kinda had all the, all the fun toys to play with at the lab to design something. And that's Kinda, you know, the beginnings of where I've got, you know, where I am now.  Speaker 5: So it really cool. So that's optical prescription lab, which is the, the lab, correct? That's correct. And incorrect. Triple fork hunting LLC was something you created in 2013 it looks like. Yup. Yup. That's correct. And that's where we basically, we didn't just want anybody with a hunting license and you know, a gun to come hunt. We wanted to open it up to corporations or a place for them to bring their employees and um, and really have a place to, you know, bond and um, team build based on the, you know, you know, to build the relationships with either their clients or their employees and works extremely well. And one of my business partners is still running that more. I'm not running it as much based on where hundreds HD go does that now. So I'm lane is really stepped up and made a difference for that, keeping it going on the side.  Speaker 5: So cool. I'm always curious about something. So you're, you're, I mean at this point, whether you intended to or not, you're heavily involved in the firearms industry. Um, and so, well you're not selling guns. You're definitely directly marketing to that group with both the hunting and the, the, the hunters HD gold. So did you grow up with guns? Did you, how'd you fall out? This is, my dad had guns and um, we always use, I mean, we used to only brought them out. Usually when we traveled, it was kind of the time he put the gun in the, you know, in the trunk. And we traveled to Texas to see his family and my mom's family in Fort Worth, you know, Dallas area. And that's how I remember about growing up with the guns that don't really have the history of out shooting guns myself. I just remember my dad would always take guns out there and trade with some relatives and stuff like that. Um, October of 2011, my, um, father passed away and we stayed with him the last two years of his life. I'm helping him. He died of, um, cancer and he was in a situation where, um,  Speaker 1: yeah,  Speaker 5: that's where I inherited, you know, seven guns that he wanted me to have guns. You know, why? Um, grandfather was the mayor of, um, Bessemer, Alabama for 18 years. So he had these guns that bought a shot, guns and um, all these 11 Remington, 11 hundreds that were, um, back from the fifties and sixties. And how all these pictures with, um, local, um, celebrities, we'll call it the, um, bear Bryant's and stuff like that of shooting these guns and out shooting together and doing a bunch of 'em dog hunting and stuff. So there's a lot of history with these guns that I inherited. And that's Kinda what got everything started. Cause every time I look at sharing, we're talking or something, I always like, you know, you realize your fathers, you know, started this back in 2011, just had no idea where I was going to go. Yes.  Speaker 5: So that kind of got me involved in, you know, collecting guns and um, and getting started there in 2011. And that's what caused me that, you know, back here in the, um, previous presidency where I was wanting to say anyway, he bought some property and, you know, I have a place to shoot this and train and you know, hot and, you know, and everything else that was being, you know, jeopardize back in the, um, the 2000, you know, late 2000. Yup. Years of that. And, um, that's kind of where everything got started. And then when I actually had a gentleman, when we were building the lake at, um, triple forks hunting and, um, had a gentleman, Marketo bulldozer, it, it was moving dirt for the lake and he comes up to me and goes, hey, I need you to get me some more of this wasp spray.  Speaker 5: Um, that looks like it's in Pelham, Alabama. And I was like going, Huh, it's in my backyard. Sure. I go and look into it. Yeah. And, um, so I took this can, it was, um, kind of rainbow wasp spray. So I took it to the building and um, had to be buzzed in. They weren't open to the public and I was like, I walked to the door and I was like, Hey, I want to buy this wash spray. And I'm like, well, we really don't sell to the public, but hold on one second. And they went back in the back and then gentleman came out and he was like, where'd you hear about this? And I want it just to go on a bulldozer and I'm no, Port Alabama handed it to me and said, you know, come get some. He goes, well, we really don't.  Speaker 5: Some of the public, you know, but, but however, you know, here's the icing on the land of Basaam and you know, so forth and I'll let my business card with you before it's hunting. And he gave me his, um, and um, I went off on my merry way and went online and ordered some. And um, then about, yes, about a week later, if not yet, not that long. Um, the one of the owners of Rainbow Technologies, Larry Joe steely junior called me up and says, you know, hey, I see that you have a hunting camp and, um, so forth and tell me about that. When did that process, and he actually booked a hunt with his brother and one of his employees to come out there during hunting season. And then, um, we become a cane. You know, Franz went after, did the hunt together in the early fall, late fall season when the hunting season was starting.  Speaker 5: And, um, he saw the lenses there that I had used. I'd made up some just some demo stuff there as you want to use tested with, um, you know, people that were coming to hunt. I'd already was testing the lens with some game wardens, stuff like that. You know, just trying to get their feedback and stuff cause I was made a lens that, you know, allowed me to see a lot earlier in the mornings to hunt and in the state of Alabama hunting hours of defined 30 minutes before sunrise and 30 minutes after sunset. These were actually bringing in enough light to be able to hunt during those hours when it's pretty dark. So having the hunting property, I'd already made friends with a bunch of the game wardens cause I wanted them to be, you know, the places, two hours from where I live. So I always wanted them around the property to be able to keep watching what was going on and gave them full rights to come out there anytime they wanted to.  Speaker 5: They saw some suspicious, you know, come hang out at the place and you know, using this, it's kind of your home base. So that met Larry and Larry come out there and did a hunt and he got me involved in them. He goes, you ever do any competitive shooting or anything? And I was like, no. And um, he was doing cowboy action shooting and not a time slap, you know, single action shooting to Saudi SAS. And he got me involved in that and I was pretty intrigued cause I always, you know, like I said, I was collecting guns that look like this was going to give me another reason to, um, to buy some more guns, which I was all about. So got my cowboy outfits together and um, we got me at, um, an 1873 navy arms of Winchester that had been ridden and um, couple of Ruger voke heroes that we'd set off to have tripped out.  Speaker 5: Um, stoker double barrel shotgun and I wish you can. Cowboy action shooting was a blast. And I've had these lenses I've made there and I'm using them. And couple of locals there were like, what are you wearing? It's awesome. And made Larry Joe some of course, and he was all about it. And Larry Joe steely, if you don't recognize that name, he's the gentleman that now alone still target paint. Oh Man. That's the correlation there. This is before still target pink was even created. Yes. So if this time, you know, he was telling me, you know, I'm thinking about making a paint for the steel targets, he saw a need there. And um, the locals were all kind of intrigued about what I'd done with these. Lindsay goes, I really think you got something here. You gotta to see what you can do with it. And I started getting more intrigued cause I was already, I was kind of, you know, thought about going down the hunting road and I was doing a couple of, I didn't do any shows.  Speaker 5: I was visiting a couple of 'em, you know, directs expos and stuff like that. Just trying to see what was going on and made it a couple of visits to shot show with, um, some of my friends that start arms, they're hearing best from Alabama, about 20 minutes away and became good friends with them. So I was, you know, intrigued in what was really happening around the lands and what kind of feedback I was going to get. So I went to shot show a couple of years before it was, um, anything just to see if anybody was offering something I'd already created in the lab and make sure I wasn't walking into something that was already there. So why create something that somebody else is already putting out there? And there's already a market that's already been exposed to it.  Speaker 5: Um, come to find out there was nobody that was putting a traffic's lands together with a photochromatic combination. And, um, so I was even more intrigued to see where this would really go. And then I guess about a year later, Larry Joe Staley Jr was running, you know, had his thing going with still target paint. And he had called me up and says, I think I found a way pressed again and the competitive shooting, I was like, what do you mean? You know, everybody, you know, Sass already knows about it locally. You talked about something that goes, no, no, I think it's something bigger. Even with this thing called steel challenge. He goes, he had met a, he had met a competitive shooter named Steve Foster out of Georgia and was thinking about putting a team together. And um,  Speaker 1: okay,  Speaker 5: he asked me if I wanted to, um, sponsor the team. I was like, well sure, what does that, what do you want? What do you want to do? He goes, well, I'm just very, we put them all in hunters, HD gold. Well I'll put a Jersey together and we'll get your, you know, logo on the Jersey. And I said, sure, why not? Sounds great. And um, that's Kinda how I got involved with, um, steel challenge. Really cool. Wow. Oh my goodness. An interesting, you know, why do you get into it? Cause I had no idea what I was doing and I was, you know, I knew what I was doing on the land side, but I had no idea what the, um, competitive shooters of steel challenged was. I knew about Calloway shooting cause I've been doing that for about, you know, six or eight months, you know, once or twice a weekend.  Speaker 5: And I had a lot of fun with that. I didn't really think it was going to go much farther. And I was focused on the hunting side. So we were already testing a lot of products at triple forks hunting. I was obtained up with, um, Pradco, they're here in Birmingham as well and they all, they all Moultrie summit on tree stands Code Blue Night and hell game calls a lot of other brands. Yeah, I had come pretty close with veil and still close with them. Today. I'm testing their products out in the field and I'm had a lot of those guys, you know, helping me. Um, did some testing with hunters HD going and having some other avenues with on the hunting side. You know, with, I'm trying to get a hundred HD go to see what kind of um,  Speaker 5: way I could break into the industry. You kind of see what that looks like with my, with my lenses, but I'm meeting, I'm stay, you foster kinda change that entire direction. I kind of told the hunters I'll be back with you later. This is something that's really happening now. And Steve Foster had actually told me that um, he was always finished in second and third and once he got a hold of the 160 go and he was actually finishing first, that's the only thing he changed. Found that kind of, you know, intriguing because I didn't realize, you know what, I was really opening up to the competitive shooters to find them a shooting at vantage. I knew we had one in cowboy action shooting, but the targets are a lot closer and there's not much distance involved. It was just about more of transitioning and being able to work a leap or action and reloading your shotgun fast regardless,  Speaker 3: regardless of the platform, regardless of the game. I think Jerry Mitchell, he says it best is like you can see it fast, you can shoot it fast.  Speaker 5: Yup. And that's what [inaudible] when we were thinking about slogans, we were going through that, my wife and um, we were going back and forth cause one of the things she said is you can only shoot as fast as you can. See that's what it is. That's what it is. She always wants to put something together with the lenses being able to change in the eye. And she actually came up with a slogan as well. They changed so you don't have to. So that was kind of, you know, that kind of told a story about you know, the land without, you know, getting too much into it just because I have a lot of people would still walk up to the tent today when I traveled and I go, what is this? They changed it. I'll have to, and it just opens up the story. So it's working real well.  Speaker 3: That's really good. Well, okay, this is like, you just opened up like a bout a thousand conversations. Okay, good. So first thing I want to say is, is I've been, I've been in the firearms industry now for Ah, well, let's see. I've been really engaged as a consumer for about seven or eight years now and I've been engaged as a service provider for let's say five or six of those years. And I can't tell you how many people stumble into their careers. Like I just was looking for something for myself that worked better. Alex gun works. Great example. That guy just wanted a gun that worked better for himself, made a gun work great, kept making him. Um, you know, I'm here, I hear this over and over and it's really interesting to me how few people in the modern games are, um, on the gaming side of things.  Speaker 3: Uh, started with hunting and started a lot. I mean like, you know, you and I both grew up, like I didn't grow up around guns and sound like you, you know, you had him in the House, dad had him, but no, it wasn't like you grew up shooting every weekend or he lived on the farm shooting all the time. Um, and just how many people have like really who have really advanced the sports significantly come from like a whole different world of um, you know, uh, firearms used to saw post 18, you know, um, it's fascinating. But let's do this. I um, so when you were starting to develop this lens, so let's just explain this to those who you know, I'll give the simpleton. So for those of you who aren't watching this on video or you've never seen 180 gold lens is a essentially a very bright yellow lens, not unlike what you've seen in inexpensive, um, lenses.  Speaker 3: Like, if you just saw somebody walking by, you know, you find that like you buy the three pack, there's the smoke, there's the red and there's the yellow and you throw away the yellow and you take the smoke and the red with you out to the right, you know? Um, and so it looked kind of like that, but then you put them on and instead of it just liking everything, like super vivid and uncomfortable. Cause when I wear yellow lenses, I'm just like, I mean it's just like I'm being assaulted by light. I don't like it. You put these on and it takes a second. Especially if you haven't worn them before and then you sort of like, I don't know, you're like relax into this. Just sort of flow a light into your eyes all day. And what you don't notice is they're photochromatic so they're adjusting and the amount of light they're letting in based on the conditions outside, which is something like, you know, if he told me his photochromatic I immediately would be thinking of my brother's like 1978, you know, a glasses that he wore that were just not cool by even 1978 standards does that.  Speaker 3: But as a shooter, as a competitor outside all day long and all kinds of different light, you know, light's always changing and you're either switching lenses all day long or your, you know, you could wear these and they give you that all day sense. And I, I use them all the time. Um, I have them, I mix them with a couple of other things and I want to talk about that with you in a second. Cause I've recently gotten into this tactical games thing and um, I think I need a specific set of la or like frame for that. I got it. I'll talk to you about that, maybe offline, but like, um, cause I've got, I w you know, you made me, you gave me a set of the archers right away, the day that we were out there and um, at, I think that was PCC championships, there's a PCC roll championship.  Speaker 3: Give you a pair of orange shoes to wear around. I wore, Oh man, I wore them all. I wore them for the two days of the event. And see for me the biggest issue I have is I'm always transitioning back and forth between shooting the guns and dealing with cameras and electronics when all that kind of stuff. So like I'm changing things now. My eyes have gotten a little a showing off my, you know, readers right now, but my eyes in the last couple of years have significantly, um, diminished and quality. But I'm, I'm always switching back and forth between glasses, between what I'm shooting with when I'm working with, you know, polarized glasses, make my screen look like crap. Um, you know, there's a lot, whatever you go back and forth. So like I where it's just become kind of a thing for me. I've always got three or four pairs when I'm going to shoot and do cameras.  Speaker 3: I always just wear the eight hundreds HD gold now cause they just worked perfectly for both. Um, and the only negative is occasionally I've got to flip them up so that I can like make sure my color balance is correct before I start filming something. I have on a couple of occasions gotten an under saturated shot cause my lenses were exaggerating the Co, you know, so much the color richness. So, um, and I just, so I use them all the time and you've got a couple of friends here up in town now. Like A, Dustin Sanchez is one who is wearing your lens now and um, and they're released. We made him a pair of custom pair as well. Yeah, I know. I know we're all were us three gunners or a bunch of premadonnas or like I can't possibly wear  Speaker 5: in shooting sports offhand. That I think I learned that the hard way at the PC works with PCC world championship and everybody goes, Oh, all righty.  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well look, I mean, and I, you and I had a pretty cool interview. If you go to the huck origins youtube channel, there's an interview of the two of us that I did, um, at the PCC champion. No rimfire we met at PCC, but we did that when it rimfire and I'd had some experience then with your lens and that's when you made me the ones in the Oakleys. I was like, I love these lenses. I don't like the frames. Okay. Whatever. So, and we've had this conversation, we don't need to rehash this, but um, so you made me a set of Oakleys I took a set up. Yeah. I think I took a set out of my car and sent him with you. And you made a set of Oakleys for me with these lenses. And those were the ones that were, I mean, I literally wear 'em all the time.  Speaker 3: That where I'm driving around I where I'm there, they're kind of my constant rotation. If I'm wearing black boots, I'm wearing my hunters h g gold for wearing brown boots. I'm probably still wearing my Oakleys, but you know, so, um, so that's Kinda like I'm a pretty simple guy. It's like my glasses go with my boots. Um, but, um, and then I wear them, you know, all summer. I am also setting up matches I'm doing. And then I shoot the match and they work all day for all of that. And we run right up until nine o'clock here in Minnesota, which this time of year we're getting to the point where it's almost dark and I'm not switching to clears, which is just huge. Um, I can't, I wouldn't tell you if there's an advantage per se, um, in my shooting, but I'm not at the level where like any, especially any more where like you, I would notice such a subtle difference.  Speaker 3: Right. You know, not, not a hundred thought at first place, you know. Um, and so, but I will say that just from a personal comfort level, they're fantastic. And then I wear 'em all the way home in the car because I have like a blue light thing. It's like I tried to get my s I'm really conscious of my sleep and um, and they block some of the blue light from my car all the way home, but I could still see and drive and they blocked glare. So they just kind of cover me from the moment I leave the house till the moment I come home and I never, the glass is just managing that. So that's kind of like the layman's term of what they're doing. But I'm curious from your standpoint, like what was the design philosophy like? I mean, I know you tried a bunch of different things, but what did you finally end up with? Well, there was a lens that came out  Speaker 5: how many years ago? Back in the light, I guess early two thousands and then went through the probably 2010 or left. And that was a, um, company that had put out a actual actual shooting and hunting lands that had been discontinued. And that gave me an idea where to start at, because when I was talking to my wife about what I wanted to do, she goes, I think there's already something like this out there. I said, well, why is it not being, you know, talked about? And she was like, well, doctors don't, the aren't talking about it because they aren't asking their patients lifestyle questions. They're just trying to get through as a general thing. They're just trying to get through and do the eye exams and try to control what insurance is going to pay him. But they're not selling multiple pairs of glasses. Right. And that's something we deal with every day still today in the optical industry.  Speaker 5: You know, trying to get doctors to talk about more lapdog questions. Because when you get into people's, you know, what they do besides, you know, just going to work every day, you know, they need glasses for different things that they do. And if you're on a computer all day, there's a computer lands. If you're playing golf, there's a golfing lens. If you need no shooting and hunting, we now know there's a hunting lands. If you are driving, there's a driving lens that helps out for different things. And I'm fishing of course you need Polaroid polarized lenses and fishing and you need prescription polarized lenses and you know, you can find that by actually talking to people. And that's what I kind of brought to the optimum industry with all my years of experience in retail was qualifying a customer to really, you know, talk to them and find out what other needs they may have than just needing quote unquote glasses.  Speaker 5: And that's what gave me the idea of running into so many different things, whether it be with a hunting lands, because you know there's a lake, I don't know how much you want to remember. I'd probably do somewhere, but going through all the R and d of the one away lenses that this thing I'll work cause I know work. Yes, I like this, but no I don't like this. And then, you know, we, we threw away a lot trying to find the right combination of what we wanted to do and, or what we wanted to accomplish and what we wanted to accomplish was, um, one, we knew that the base of being tribex was superior to plastic or polycarbonate hands down because tribex by itself is lighter and stronger than plastic or polycarbonate, and also allows 43% more light to pass through the lens than polycarbon now.  Speaker 5: Okay. Wow. We knew the only other optics that are better than tribex is glass. And we didn't want to have glass anywhere around any including my own, anywhere near around our eyes as something catastrophic happen because glass, you know, shards and just is a disaster for your eyes. Yeah. That's not that dog will hunt. But believe it or not, I still see people wearing Kostas every day when they go shooting. And that's just, you know, I like coach. I, there's that role with that coach is a great brand. So [inaudible] jams. There's a lot of great brands out there in the [inaudible] industry, but those are fishing glasses. And that's how they marketed. But people still use them today because they want the, you know, the big C on there, you know, they're on their truck when they go hunting. That's just part of it. Totally. But if you stand around any three gun match, you rimfire match anything where the steels be in shot, you're going to eventually end up a wipe and blood off your face from a frat.  Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. And when I went to my, when I went to Sherri and I said, this is where I'm wanting to go with this, I really think I've got something. And um, she goes, well, where the hell is our liability? I'm not taking a company. We started back in 1977 and gets screwed up or something. We just coming up with and I was like, oh, well that makes sense. I said, hell no, I'll get back with you. So about two days later, I got back with it. I said, I figured it out. We're gonna do everything. And um, OSHA safety frames and all the lenses. We're going to do an ansi standard 2015 cause most of the cyclins that are out there, only 2000, three, 2010 and we're going to take it all we 2015 and she says, well get me the OSHA certificate and you can go from there.  Speaker 5: And um, about six months later I got everything approved going through a lot, some more trials and this working and not working and paying a lot of money to have a bunch of lenses come back to me and didn't pass and trying to figure out why and put other coatings together and other solutions together to finally get the certificate. And um, we move forward at that point. And that's what informed the original selection of frames. Correct. Is the ocean rating. That's, you know, that's why we have the frames we have, cause they're all Ziad, seven plus one and z 87 plus two for prescriptions. And that's the difference than our frames are. And you should have saw the frames that were out when we first got started. We'd come along on frames because you know, there's no such thing as a sexy safety frame. And now wife to this day still hates these frames as a huddle.  Speaker 5: And the new velocity that we just came out with was another frame style that finally came out that we worked with the manufacturer to get some that were listening to us to try to get some things like we want. And that's kind of where we're at now. And I've got some, still have some frame manufacturers I'm working with up in New York area that are, you know, tried to design more and more stuff. That is, I'm quote unquote getting more of a more photo friendly. Here's your commitment. Those to stay OSHA approved with all of your frames. It is okay. And the reason being is is it's about safety. We're talking about safety, we're talking about protecting the only two eyes you're gonna have period. And you know, do we have some stuff out there? What? You've got one that's not us framing. We have the conversation, it's got the same properties, it's got the same thickness, it's got the same everything. But you've got to remember, I can't put an anti rated frame and a non safety frame. So conversation I have with you, you got the same thing. It just doesn't have the Ansi markings. Correct. It won't, you know, based on what OSHA has put in front of us, it will not, you know, provide the same protection. But conversation is, is this the same thickness as the same everything you know, it should, you know, just don't have the same, you know, Angie ratings on, yeah.  Speaker 3: So does that, does that make it impossible to have a, a lens that has no w you know, sorry I say this better. Does that make it impossible to create an OSHA rated lens that doesn't have any frame around like the bottom half for example?  Speaker 5: Not at all. There's one thing about it, there's not an interchangeable lands out there that is OSHA approved. I got now. Now that was saying that we are working on some things now on a model that's going to roll out if everything still goes as planned in January of 2020 yeah. So we have been, we've got some things in testing. We're still waiting to get some stuff back from, um, the writings. But there is that OSHA approved, you know, rimless frame that we are working on. That's going to be a game changer for almost to get into the shotgun world more. And also to get in a situation where we can deliver what you and all the other shooters you're telling me, you know, hey, what can we do to get nothing at the bottom? What can we do to get nothing, you know, there, so we're working on that.  Speaker 5: Um, that's gonna be a whole different, um, level of taking it to the next level for hunters HD because one of those things that's going to be, you know, we've still got to worry about the, um, the safety, but we're trying to listen very diligently to every, you know, shooter we can to get the feedback. Cause when I do demo days, I do it for two reasons. One is to go out there and use the Lens, you know, I know what they're going to like about it, but I want to, I want to hear more from the shooters that don't like it. Yes. Can I tell them that? Because if this is where I can take the brand in the future, does it mean it's going to happen tomorrow? No, but if I get enough feedback on a certain area, just like we were talking about now with rem lists, then guess what?  Speaker 5: The future is bright. We're going to have a rimless site, the frame going as planned. And when you talk about that then you're talking about different shapes and different things best. Let's make clear, it's not going to be just a one piece frame. We've talked about one piece lands, we talked about that before, that that's an injected molding process and it's all, you know, call the carpet. There's a lot of things there that, you know, we're limited to the blanks of the, of the, of the lands itself at 80 millimeters. You know, it's gonna have to still be two separate lenses, but it's going to be something that is going to be, you know, lighter and uh, keep the same strength as well.  Speaker 3: Well let me, let me dig into this a little bit cause this is like really interesting to me personally. And I, you know, and I don't know if others will enjoy it. And that's not really why I do this. Um, so, so really cool. So like I would say, you know, arguably, well first of all, there's, there's a lot of great conversations and I want to exclude a handful of things to begin with to make life really easy and fair for us to have a conversation. So, um, I let me say this anecdotally, I am standing at Ahrens and arms, which is an awesome gun shop here in town. We sell lots of high end equipment, lots of high end guns. If you want three gun gear, you're probably coming or USPSA gear, you're probably coming to us, right? And they'll, um, I can't tell you how many people are like, like, I mean, just like, uh, obsessing about the details between two or three, $2,000 optics for their rifle.  Speaker 3: And then they tell me that and I asked them what shooting glasses they're wearing and they're spending about $45 over the counter. And I'm like, ew, this doesn't matter. Get the cheapest thing possible. Cause you know, if you're not gonna look through a good lens. So we can, we're excluding everything in the, in the lower cost categories for the most part in this conversation. Right. And I say that because, you know, this is one thing about a hundred days she called. This is not an inexpensive lens, right? That's correct. Yeah. And so this is somebody who's looking for a very high end, very tailored lens specifically for what they're up to. Now you go into rim fire or steel challenge shooters, they're always living with a single focal point with their eyes or sh or directly through the glass and they're making small adjustments, right? They're not having to like calculate targets, you know, 90 degrees to their left in order to see where that's happening before they break a shot and move.  Speaker 3: Right? There's certainly not dealing with what we're dealing with, whether they're looking through the top of their eyes and the bottom of their eyes, depending on the angle up and down, they're dealing with [inaudible] long range rifle shooting. So, um, then we kind of get into like what's out there in the, you know, premium marketplace and really there's only a couple. And I would assume you hear a lot about Oakley in your world, right? Just cause the Oakley's the, um, the painless, you know, there's a lot of ranger arms, there's a lot of Nice stuff. Yeah. And they make two lenses. We specifically see a lot of in our world, which is the flax, which is a two lens interchangeable model. And then the tombstones, they have a couple of versions of the wraith and whatever. Um, and I have a set of the tombstones that I use.  Speaker 3: Those are my primary, if I'm doing lots of shooting on multiple angles at different, you know, targetry and all kinds of stuff, that's one of my go to lenses because it's lightweight wraps around the head and I've got completely unobscured vision anywhere. I might, you know, angle the gun short of like shooting down through my feet, which doesn't happen very often. Oh yeah, it has happened, but it doesn't have ever happened. That's usually a result of some sort of catastrophic mistake. On my part where now the only way that you can engage the target is on my back through my legs. Um, but that's a hasn't happened. It has. Um, and that's, I go to that Lens for that very specific reason. So big terrain matches lots of running, lots of open space. That's something I'm wearing. Um, that's the only other shooting lens that I wear besides the HD Gold's now.  Speaker 3: And, um, and so for me, that's the one thing about these glasses that I, you know, and even with my Oakleys, which are perfect, um, that's the one time that I don't wear them. And that's just because I just don't have the Mo. I mean those, I think the wraith and the, the tombstone line has got arguably the most field of view available without obstruction on the marketplace. So I'm not sure where I'm going with this other than to say like, how are you dealing with that? Um, cause you're, you're convincing three gunners, slowly but surely, I'm starting to see these things show up. Um, you know, obviously it's an objection you're dealing with. What is the conversation like around that?  Speaker 5: Um, take them to trial. Yeah. Really, really tight. Come and try him. Um, cause I, and I've had this conversation with some shooters, I won't mention their name, but because they are very, they do a lot of training and they're very specific in what they do. And I don't want to get involved in some detailed conversations. Yeah. When the, when you try them and you use them and you put yourself in a, and when I, I'll back up 20 seconds, I'll tell you, I'll tell them to take them with them off the stages. Yeah. Well the walk that, you know, they got to 10 minutes so I'll take, take them with the law at this stage. No, I can, when I did a lot of matches, especially three Golytely, they've all been championships. Nobody likes to change gear in the middle of the match. Correct.  Speaker 5: I get that they're already there. They're there to win. They'd been practicing. So take them and try and when you want the stage. And that's my soft approach to saying, put them on, see where the contrast is and when you walked the stages, you know, walk and see exactly what's happening when you move your head with these lenses. Um, come to find out with the new velocity that we have, um, that we just came out with in January for USPSA Ayers gives a lot wider view than people imagine with a smaller lands. And that's a little bit more wrap on it. But  Speaker 1: yeah,  Speaker 5: people are finding out, you know, when they, when they see me at the [inaudible] that can put them on, they're like, well I can see this. I can see that. Well of course you're not engaged in high heart rate, high situation, the timer's not going off and your focus is not where it needs to be, which is through your optics, where your sides, um, when this happens for lack of a better vision, for lack of better words, tunnel vision and your direct focus has taken over. Yup. You don't notice anything but what you're looking at and what's your end game? 100% I call alligator brain. There, there is transition period where you have to cut your eyes and be ready for the next target. But it doesn't really affect that either. On some of the frame styles we have, there are some, we had their closed off and that's, you know, it's not good.  Speaker 5: But I always tell people, you know, we have the discussion when I go to these matches, you know, they say, well, what's the difference? I was so, all the lenses are the exact same. So the only differences yet and what we're looking for in a frame, they pick this up. I'm like going, that's not gonna work. Try this one. And I'll put them in. I push towards the gauge, the aviator, um, for the, for the 70s, you know, look, or the either the velocity because I know the rat allows a lot more. Yes, you can get it. I have fun with all these, you know, [inaudible] it doesn't bother me when people say, well, I look like a, you know, an old, you know, seventies, you know, you know, porn star, it doesn't bother me. You know, it's not my fault. They have a mustache. That's right.  Speaker 5: But oh wait, we have a lot of fun with it. But truth be told, it's once we get past the vanity, which is not easy to do. I want, I want people to focus on the lens. And when people try and when they go out and use them, they're like, you know, they come back going, well I didn't notice any of the sides. You know, I don't want to look at somebody and say, well you're not gonna notice that when you shoot, cause I don't shoot myself. I just know based on what the eyeball does, I don't want to get in people's, you know, I not tell them what they're gonna say or how they're going to see it go track theirself. And I guess getting back to the answer, your question specifically is just go demo it for yourself. Go try it. Um, does it work every time?  Speaker 5: No, but I get the feedback I need where I can take it to the next level. And, um, when, you know, like I said, what's going to happen come January is going to be, you know, a lot of people coming back around and saying it's time for me to try it again. Well that's really good. So let's transition just a little bit. I mean the one thing I've really noticed cause I, I did a little dive on like the overall like um, know like I would for any company that solicited my business, the marketing firm, right. This is just do a little dive in like what, where you are, where you're out there in the digital space and all that. And you know, I mean you have a decent presence on several sites but I mean the main thing that you've seem to be doing is you're out there every weekend at the match, putting the glasses in people's hands.  Speaker 5: Is that the last year primary strategy for the company? It's, it's one of those things where when I talk to Sherry about it, I said I've got to go educate people on lenses and technology. You can't do that. You can, but nobody's going to just take the time to go to the benefits page 160 and go and study that. I mean, it's there, everything's there. But to be able to actually talk to somebody about it and actually say, well, why is it doing this compared to this? And I get to talk about the technology to people and educate when I go to these matches. I'm not, you know, this sounds crazy. I've been in, I've been in sales my whole life. I'm not there to just sale. I'm there to educate and build relationships. Yup. That's what it's all about. I've been doing, you know, I have so many people don't have some people walk up that are in sales saying, why didn't you ask for the order?  Speaker 5: I'm like going, they're not ready to buy yet. They're going to let you know. I can get, don't get me wrong, I can sell it better. I've been doing it all my life, but I go out there and I start selling and promoting and putting somebody in a position where they're going to go home and go, what the hell did I just buy? Right? Then you have buyer's remorse that for sure in the social media world that we live in today, you know, that can kill your writings real quick. You don't want that. And that's one reason why when I do demo days, there truly is no pressure. My job is to educate, let people experience it. And even on the prescription side, I actually make your prescription before you buy it and you get to demo with your prescription as well. There's nobody ever heard of this before, and my wife goes, you've lost your mind. I've got doctors that don't pay their bill. I said, you don't these shooters, myself being a shooter when I got started. Yep. The, we're different and we're not going to be known as that individually. We're not gonna be known as that guy or that person that didn't pay for something. And especially Zuni world. It's a very, it's a, it's an amazingly huge shooting world, but it's a small world when it comes to somebody doing something or not supposed to do  Speaker 3: blows me away. I, it's one thing, I mean obviously you've gotten to know a lot of shooters now and you've, you've come to a conclusion that um, that many do. I mean, I take a, I'm like the only game in Minnesota that'll take a credit card for a matching and I don't ask people to sign, which is obviously a, a liability from a business standpoint. Never even crossed my mind. I'm like, we don't, we don't  Speaker 5: either. It's just one of those things that, you know, I always have people ask me all the time, you know, especially I get a lot of emails and everybody goes, what's the warrant? I'm like going, well, what it a warranty warranty? A warranty is nothing but a state of mind. Correct? Correct. Okay. I've sold extended warranties to all the places I worked. I've sold warranties, I've sold, I've sold people a state of mind. And the reason being that there's no actual warranty listed on the website is because warranties don't have to really be curated until somebody take it takes advantage of something. Now let me tell you what I mean by that. My philosophy, when somebody catches a frag or something happens, they contact me. I'm just gonna replace the Lens. Yep. No questions asked. Um, if somebody sends me a pair of glasses that have had, um, I can, I can we say lenses every day by our doctors that returned stuff for warranty.  Speaker 5: It's where the manufacturer, we are the warranty. We handle everything. Yep. So seeing lenses come every day, I can tell when a lens has been abused. You know what I mean by abused is leaving it just on the dash your car in extreme heat, um, cleaning it, um, and causing scratches because of clean. Um, we see everything and that people try to put my people a lot smarter than me in the lab here. You know, we know how to identify things. So when I talk to people about, you know, cleaning, you know it with, they come with cleaning instructions, like they come with a, they come a z clear, which is a cleaner, an atoll fogging agent, you know that, you know, we try to do anti fogging in house. I have all the tools to do it in the house, but there's another heating and cooling process that causes us to fail Ansi standards.  Speaker 5: So we had to find an outside source and I met up with um, Chris Ward who owns z clear and then that's why we package everything and hunter's HD go. Was he clear? There are specific things we put in place with every part of the process to be able to try to overcome the objections before they become objections. And I've had people that have brought me lenses before saying I've got this stuff in here. I can't get it off the lens. Am I going? Yeah, this is where pretty much you cleaned your lenses with your jersey, where your shirt, which is the worst thing to do because every bit of dust and dirt that's on that Jersey is going to get in there. And that's what scratches and this, it's when you're using that, I'll talk to them. I say, well take them back. I'm still replace them for weed because I'm here to, I mean I'm not here to sell another pair of lenses every time someone has a problem or I'm here to, you know, build customers for life.  Speaker 5: So I'll tell them, you know, well next time before you clean your lenses, take whatever liquid you have, be it, um, water, kool-aid and Gatorade poured on lenses cause there's a hydrophobic top coat that's not gonna allow anything to stick to them. Then clean them with the stuff that we provided. And then, you know, here's a new, you know, here's your, here's a set of lenses and replaced no charge. If this happens again, I'm gonna charge you $2,000. So it's just, you know, cause we've had, you know, it's all a part of training happens. Um, so, you know, we, I have fun and I'm not just dealing with, you know, if somebody has a problem, it's just not a customer. I said it's a person. I've met some person I've come to know and we have, we have a real life conversation just like we just had, you know, she's like, this is, this is how you, how you can overcome this in the future.  Speaker 5: Don't do that. It's so clear. Cause I see you out there and there's just, there's always a line of people to come talk to you and check them out and figure it out. And part of that is, I also have been, I don't know if you're still doing this, but at least the last season you were doing like a custom set of glasses for each, for each. Yes. I still, I still do that. Getting Ready to, you know, not when I'm sure this podcast is going to be produced, I mean published, but I'll be somewhere else this weekend with another custom pair everywhere I go. And um, that's, that's part of the fun because it does two things. One, it brings people to the tent to see what I've got. Cause I don't ever release any pictures of it until the day of. So people want to come see what I've put together and I gathered their email address for any kind of, you know, a future marketing's or any new product releases.  Speaker 5: What's a good way to, you know, the catcher that on the business side, I'm always have people all the time ask me, you know what, they email me all the time. I said, I don't have time that, you know, so you may get an email once or twice a year about product, you know, a new product update or something that's happening in the, in the, in the honey hundreds HD gold world. But, um, those are mine to keep and I'm not going to sell in anybody. So, um, I've had people ask me in the industry, you know, hey, can I get, you know, have some email addresses for this and this? And I'm like, no, I can't do that. Just like the, when I became part of the USPSA I talked to them and I said, do y'all have an emails out there that can market to, and it's actually in their bylaws, the answer's no, which is fine.  Speaker 5: So I still had to create a way to, you know, build my own list and um, my list I feel in some cases is better than their list because um, if they're not at the award ceremony, the only way I'm going to contact and let them know is through email cause I'm not collecting phone numbers or anything else. So they, they're, you know, they're inclined to give you their correct email address. So when I do have time to send out an email about a product release or what we're doing on youtube or whatever we're doing, um, which has happened, not all think, but once this year when our first time I contest the beginning of the year that lasted out the entire year, they actually emailed everybody. And when are, when I sent out that email, I had a pretty high, I mean, think my open rate was like 80 something percent. So that's pretty high based on talking to other people that are only getting 20 or 30% of their open rates. So kidding. When I email somebody, it's like, hey, you know, it's not very often and you know, we all get those emails two or three times a day from the same company and we, you know, they just become like, I just need to go away. They just see everything and you stuff  Speaker 3: that's a real markable number. Right? That's like, I mean, when we were marketing my mom, uh, my family's been residential real estate for a very, very long time and she was very early on in the email marketing and when we were sending out emails, you know, like 2005 to 10, somewhere in there, 70 to 90% open rate was like pretty awesome. Right? Uh, but now 70 90% is like three x. They did not it. Like I told you, when I go meet all these people, what am I doing? I'm, I'm making friends, I'm building relationships. How many times you open an email from your friend [inaudible] it's all about building that relationship. Well, the other thing too is, I mean, I don't know if you're aware of this, but like I, you know, if you went to American Express and you asked them for email addresses that were as fine tuned as humanly possible to get, um, to get like the right client, right?  Speaker 3: You'd pay like five to $10 per email address. Wow. And that's nothing compared to how refined they are when they opt in directly to your company. Right. So when I tell my clients, for example, is like on your website, wherever you're at, consider that every time someone gives you an email address, it's like they handed you a $5 bill and that's on the bottom of the value of it, right? And you start looking at these assets. I mean, we've got companies that have 10, 12,000 email addresses. I mean, that's a 50 or $60,000 minimum asset that people have built up over time. Um, you know, look, I mean you're not in a position where tomorrow going to come along  Speaker 5: and say you can't market anymore on Facebook because you're a, you know, you're in the protective. Oh really? Some of the tags I've done, I've had some stuff taken down before. Just people shooting competitively based on maybe a Hashtag. I don't know what it was, but they said it was something I promote. Um, firearms or something I liked going and actually challenged it. I'd actually challenged it one time when I tried to boost a post that was um, nothing but the um, it was a youtube page when I looked at that. When I do now, I go around and I, when I'm doing everything, when everybody is shooting, I'm just sitting in a tent. Yeah. I have chosen to go out there and get videos of people shooting and capture like you to use your words that I heard you use a year ago. They're Disney world moment.  Speaker 5: Yeah. And I took that from you, kind of go capture, I take videos of people and at the end of the end of that day, I go put on a youtube page for free. I'm not making money off of Youtube. They're there for them to download their self. Yup. It's a way, you know, to do, you know, promote that. But when I promoted at one time on the 160 go youtube page, they shut it down. And based on my, um, promoting the sh, promoting ammunition and stuff like that, it was weird. So I counteract it and came back and said, I'm promoting safety prescription. I'm promotion to safety, protective eyewear, just like the list that eight other companies that were same thing. And it came back. And finally, you know, I, I won, I won my, uh, you know, I've had my problems too. Robin had the same problems over the hour.  Speaker 5: But when I, you know, I'm very careful on what my hashtags are now. I can't put certain hashtags on there when I want to boost something. But it's one of those things that, um, I'm waiting for the day and I'm always out there looking for something that is, we're not being shadow banned. We're not being, you know, I can go type in, you know, looking for certain companies out there and I actually have to type in the company. Exactly right. Or it doesn't even pull up anymore. He used to get tight, hey, and there's angle lamination and all these other companies at Chi, everybody's right there now. It's like you type I and it's like, nope, nope. You have to type them specifically what they are to get them to pull up now. Yeah. Is that the answer? Is that the way they're doing it now? I guarantee you that's what they're wanting to happen. It could be. It could be either. So my philosophy on all this stuff is I don't get romantic about any of it. I just look. The fact is, is if I had a new company tomorrow that sold guns and I could get away with two months of Facebook advertising before they shut me down, I do it in a second. Um, it was earlier this year actually, that for whatever reason, because we run tests pretty much monthly. Yeah. On Google, on Facebook and places like that.  Speaker 3: Or I just, I've got a couple of hundred bucks this kind of rolling all the time to see if I can get ads through and Google all of a sudden just all my gun ads got through. So we just quintupled down on that for like, I don't know, three or four months. Then all of a sudden we started getting disapproved, disapproved, fine, whatever. I made like 300 grand in the process. I'm not for the companies that I, so I'm just, I just don't get romantic about it. Cause the truth is, is that's just what, where we're at. What we're dealing with and still today, Facebook is, is one of the great arbitragers for your dollar in advertising. And, um, the one thing I'll tell you though is you can get a f an advocate at Facebook. So you've, if you got a couple of ads that have been knocked down, you can apply for an advocate.  Speaker 3: And once you have an advocate, if you're a proven product, they go through and do all the research and you guys aren't selling anything. What you want to make sure is there's no, like there's no, you know, like right now, uh, if I go to your page, I'm at a hunter's ht gold and I go to your, uh, ba Ba ba Ba ba. I was at your testimonials where, yeah, you've got your gold team partners and I can link right to a Chi, for example. And he sells guns. So what you might want to do there is if you were to, it's like one degree of separation you've got to put in place, right? So you could create a page for your website, for each of your, where you give it, like, uh, so the click through goes for a Chi, goes to a page on your site that has what you think of, you know, stuff about a Chi.  Speaker 3: And then there they can click over and go to your, um, to their page instead of having just directly to the correct. And if you do that and the advocate clears all that, then you probably will be okay. And you can run ads all day long and you can still do what you want to do, which is promote your, you these companies, right? And so, um, and you get that in place. Uh, you know, there's some like kayaks holster companies, technically holsters or not banned on Facebook, but try to get an ad out on a, on a holster. It's like fricking impossible. So you got to go through the process and get an advocate and go through the whole thing. And the problem is most holster companies spend a lot of time promoting guns and they don't realize they're doing it. And all they have to do is just do a little clean up and get their house in order. Now look, I don't want it to be that way. Right? But who gives a damn what I want. No, my job is to make money for my and see. Right?  Speaker 3: So, so, you know, and I, I just don't get too romantic about it. And the thing is, if, you know, my competition out there is going to be upset about it all day long and just not pay for advertising on Facebook, they're welcome to do that. But the truth is, is I'm gonna win right at the bottom line. And so I just don't. So are they shadow banning? Probably. Are they making life more difficult for us? Probably, but I don't spend any time thinking about it. Right. You know, and do I want to give my money to a company like that? No. But the truth is, most of the companies I work for are well south of $10 million a year. So, even if you had a $10 million company, your ad budget being 1%, it's gonna be, you know, that's a hundred grand, right? Right. If your ad budgets 3% is $300,000, tell me where you can buy that kind of exposure for 300 grand.  Speaker 3: And I'll do it. It's certainly not the backpage at USPSA front sight magazine. That's correct. So that's where I started to, you know, I start to look and I'm like, well, in the, in the big cost benefit analysis of marketing, um, I just bet ponies and I'll bet whatever pony is gonna win the best of my ability. If I have an option between a winning pony and another winning pony that doesn't, you know, um, put us in third gear all the time. Um, then I'm going to, I'm going to pay for the one that's open throttle. Right? But, but at the same time they don't exist. Right. So it's interesting. Okay. So, look, we covered a lot of stuff and I got a couple of things I just got to ask you because one thing we do a lot on this show is, um, is we talk about how we get our business done and you are traveling like basically every weekend, nine months of the year from what I can tell. What's your, what's your like, what's your key, like what do you like, what are your go to things to like, you know, keep your life in order to keep your business in order. Any tips or tricks, you got hacks we like to call them. Um, it is to, um, one, stay real with yourself. Really good.  Speaker 5: And that's what I mean by that is not just with business but with, with home and everything else with life. Um, Sherry is, um, very, very supportive and everything I'm doing, I

It’s no secret that Tim Bratz is a real estate workhorse. Starting out as a commercial real estate broker in NYC, Tim first immersed himself in the business, quickly learning the ins and outs of real estate. Over the past decade, he went from flipping homes and wholesaling to transitioning his business primarily into the multi-family realm and has never looked back. Managing a team that has over 2,500 units currently under control, Tim has managed to, in a short period of time master multi-family commercial real estate investing. As a mentor and active investor, Tim’s “Keep it Simple” approach is one that he puts into play with his very own business transactions every time proving that his methodologies work.    On this episode of Multifamily Real Estate Investments with Don and Eden, Tim dives into his unique approach to investing and the lessons he learned along the way perfecting his business strategies. He also discusses what his typical deal size is, how he finds motivated sellers, and what his number one strategy is for conducting business in commercial real estate is, “Keep It Simple.”  Highlights:  Tim’s Beginnings in Real Estate  Average Deal Size for Tim  Why he Choose to Move into Commercial Real Estate  How Tim Finds Motivated Sellers  Current Projects How to Connect with Tim LegacyWealthShow.com LegacyWealthShow Podcast CommercialEmpire.com - For Training ------------------------------------------------------ TRANSCRIPTION   Hey guys. This is your host Eden today. Me and Don are going to interview one of the biggest investors on the show to date. Tim Bratz team has over twenty-five hundred units under control and he's about to purchase four other projects in the next month.    Welcome to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to multi-family apartment buildings and off-market strategies.    Hey Tim, welcome to the show. Don and Eden excited to be here. Thanks for having me guys. Thank you. Thank you. Tell us a little about your day. How's it going so far.    It's going, man. Been in meetings all morning working on opening up an investment fund and launching that in the next 30 days here so we're really really excited. And I got a bunch of deals closing next week actually 648 units amongst four different properties. So we're pretty busy.    Yeah I know you're a busy man and I'm so happy and grateful that you actually got on the show on a Monday morning.    Yeah I know typically because Mondays are always so crazy in the office we all have that. I actually do my team meetings on Tuesdays now just to give everybody a day to catch up over the weekend get updates on all the projects all the properties and that way they can come prepared on Tuesday morning.    So Mondays worked for me bud. Yes, that's great. So Tim for our audience tell us just a little bit about your real estate background how you got into real estate and what are you currently doing. Yeah yeah sure.    So I mean high level I started paying attention to real estate when the market was going gangbusters last time remember 03 to 07. If you had a pulse you could make money in real estate and I was going through college then and realized I wanted to be involved in real estate so I was money motivated guy back then and had like a painting company in the summer where I employed a bunch of my buddies, we'd go around paint houses and then I worked for- interned for one of the largest homebuilders in the entire country. And my brother was living in New York City at the time. I'm from Cleveland Ohio.    And my brother said Hey come on out live with me and get a job out here in New York after you graduate. So moved to New York City became a commercial real estate agent and I brokered a deal that was 400 square feet in Greenwich Village of Manhattan and I signed a lease with a tenant for the landlord front for square feet was ten thousand dollars per month on a 12-year lease term with 4 percent annual escalations. I realized quickly after doing the math that this landlord was going to make almost two million dollars off of doing something at one point in time over the next 12 years. I quickly learned about residual income right passive income and the opportunity and lifestyle that can create. And so I ended up moving down to Charleston South Carolina. Just wanted some better lifestyle whether that kind of thing this is 08-09 now when the market crashed and I'm a punk Twenty-three-year-old kid at the time with no money. The worst real estate market history and deciding that I want to go and start a real estate investment company. And so nobody would lend me money. I remember going to a seminar and somebody is like oh yeah you could just call up your credit card company they'll increase your limit. So that's what I did,    I got my limit increased. I bought a dumpy little duplex in the hood for about fourteen thousand dollars put another five grand into it and then I just went and knocked on doors and pass out flyers held an open house I sold it to one of the neighbors who is going to run it as a rental property for thirty-three thousand dollars so after closing costs made about 13 grand on that deal. And it was like seventy-five total days and I was like oh my goodness I don't even know what I'm doing I'm making money on this. So let me go do it again.    I think we got this natural progression as investors and we get into wholesaling we any money or at least I didn't at the time low risk. You don't need any credit you don't need money so I got heavy into wholesaling single-family, got into flipping houses. People came to me and said 'Hey listen man and you obviously know what a deal looks like. But I have money but I don't have the time I don't have the bandwidth or the knowledge or the expertise. Why don't we split deals?' And so I end up partnering with people that way. And then nice in partnering with people on buying some and holding some single-family rentals and then got into some bigger stuff retail flips and buying some small multi-family and then eventually got into apartments and I remember just kind of reflecting a few years back and looking at where was I spending my time where was I getting the highest return of my on my time highest return on my investment and what met my long term goals the best and I realized that apartments checked every single one of those boxes. And so I decided to double down on apartments I'd burn the ships on everything we had going on and residential we saw all the deals we had in the pipeline- we saw those to the finish line at that time we were flipping probably 80 to 100 houses a year and I'm back in Cleveland at that time right.    I got married to a girl from Cleveland so I moved back to Cleveland about six years ago and I've just been looking at all that stuff. We've got some big management company and just realize we need to dedicate all of our resources to buying apartment buildings. So had a few hundred units a couple of years ago and over the past, about thirty-six little over thirty-six months almost 48 months just been doubling down on apartment buildings. And I'm currently at a little over twenty-five hundred units with that package of well not a package but four other closings this month put me a little over thirty-two hundred units in my current portfolio. Ninety-five percent of that is apartment buildings. The other 5 percent is some vacation rentals and some office buildings. So that's what we're at now. So I just dedicate all my time to apartment buildings. That's our niche. That's what we're really really good at. That's what we know inside and out. My team's comfortable with it. Every time I go outside that box. I get kicked in the crotch either from a financial perspective or wasting of time perspective. And so now we just focus on apartment buildings what we know is what we're good at and it's what's making us a lot of money right now. So everything's going great.    Yeah. So first off that's amazing that you're doing so many deals and you're so active and you've grown so much and I know you’ve only just turned 34 right? That's it last week. Thank you. Well so happy birthday.    So yeah we have been in that position to where we were making a lot of money in residential real estate whether wholesale or flipping homes and I gotta tell you making the move to commercial real estate was difficult because it requires to put the focus there and you have so much going on in residential. And so I want to ask you about making that move. When was that point that you decided to do it and how did you take the risk of shifting your entire business which was successful at the time, especially when you're still young and have your whole life ahead of you?   Yes, so that's a really really good question right. It's one that I actually get quite often for people who are scaling into apartments. I think again all of us go through this natural progression of wholesaling, flipping and we get out of flipping as fast as we get into it because we're like there's no money in that. Right? Then we get into like some turnkey type stuff or buying and holding some single-family rentals and small mall ties and then bigger apartments and commercial real estate. And it's a natural progression that a lot of investors go through. And how do you make it happen sooner than later? So to answer that, I got to tell you- for me, when we were flipping houses there were five of us. So it was me, a CEO, kind of a visionary, going out raising money; that's what I spent my time on. I had a COO, Chief Operating Officer that ran the day to day operations and just met with the team and making sure that all the daily minutia stuff is taken care of, fires are put out,  all those kinds of things. And there were three other guys on my team. One was an Acquisitions Director, two a Project Manager and three was a Dispositions Manager.    So from a tactical standpoint, it was very easy to pivot everybody on my team and move from single-family into apartments. So I took my acquisitions guy and I said ‘Hey man, you're not looking at single-family houses anymore you're only looking at apartment buildings;’ ‘Hey project managers that are renovating houses you're going to renovate apartments;’ ‘Hey, dispositions guy sort of selling houses you're going to manage the management company and you could be an asset manager.’ And so is this very small pivot from a functional operational standpoint it was a very big mindset shift right. You've got several deals a month five six eight deals a month closing and now you're like, ‘What do I do with my overhead right?’ I have all these expenses I have all this payroll I have all these other things that have to pay for. How do I do that? So we didn't just like take deals that were in the pipeline and throw those away we still saw all those through. So we still had a pipeline of another three-four months worth of deals. Right. So at the time that we pivoted, we knew that we could still cover our overhead for the next three or four months. And it's amazing when you make three-four a declaration to the universe how the universe responds. I'll give you an example when I was wholesaling houses I was a total prostitute I would take any kind of deal any kind of wholesale commission that came across my desk if it was five hundred bucks I remember doing one for two hundred dollars and I was like it was such I'm banging my head against a wall and like what the hell am I doing for two hundred dollars. But it didn't matter I would just do that. So it got to a point where I told my team feels like we're not doing any wholesale deals that we can't make a minimum five grand happened. We didn't see any deals that were less than five grand anymore we only saw deals that were eighty-five hundred and eleven thousand dollar wholesale and a fifteen thousand dollar wholesale on a seventy-five hundred wholesale. And those are the kinds of deals when you focus on those opportunities they expand. And the same thing happened when I got into apartments when I said to burn the ships. We're not doing any more single-family. We'll see these ones through that are already in our pipeline and we're only working on apartment buildings moving forward.    Do you know the next deal that came across our plate was? An 11 unit apartment building that had a big renovation that we didn't want to spend the next 12 months renovating this thing with four or five hundred thousand dollar renovation on only eleven units. That's a massive rehab but we said Hey I bet we can wholesale this thing pick up the phone I call up six or seven people. One of them says yeah dude I'll take that. We made a wholesale fee of ninety-five thousand dollars had a double close on it pay some fees. We walked away with eighty-seven thousand dollars wholesale fee from our next deal that came across our desk. So the universe whatever you want to call it responded to us making that decision and it gave us then enough overhead enough cash to cover our overhead for another three months. Right. So it got us to the point where now I got six months in reserves. I'm good to go. And now we start buying apartment buildings renovating apartment buildings have the cash flow coming in and have these things performing and that's what we end up doing.    We flipped a couple of apartment buildings made some big chunks that way. So it's an 18 unit couple months later made about one hundred twenty-five thousand dollars on that. And then we were sort of buying and holding a 74 unit portfolio a 48 unit building a 20 unit building and some of them were stabilized some of were not stabilized and you just kind of you kind of roll with it man when you solve problem by problem. And you understand what the long term vision is and then as long as you can get past each issue that presents itself on a daily basis and move the needle forward. That's just kind of what we did. We know what our long term goal was. We know what our long term benefits of reaching that goal would be. And we just we didn't let the daily issues get in our way. We knew that there would be hurdles we'd let the hurdles keep on coming and we just kept on rocking and rolling. We roll with the punches knowing that eventually one day it would be OK. Right. Eventually one day we'd get to where we want to be.  Yeah.  So if I'm getting you're right you're recommending to the residential real estate investor to if they want to make the move to commercial real estate that they're just better off stopping all the transactions or just finish everything they have in the pipeline? But not taking any new acquisitions in residential if they ever want to make the move because I'm in the same position where I used to be in the same position where me and my partner Eden- where we would buy properties and we would have more deals coming on daily or weekly and then we would get so busy with the deals that we wouldn't really be able to make that move because there's no time with real estate wholesale or flipping homes. It takes it's a full-time job. So if I'm taking your advice and you're saying stop doing this and just start focusing on whatever it is that you want to do?    Here's the thing that I know what I'm capable of right. Like if there's somebody listening to this I don't know what their capabilities are and what their background is like I'm a workhorse like I'm willing to get my hands dirty, I'm not too good to do any any role of responsibility, I'll pick up the phone and do acquisitions, I'll go and meet the contractors and kick the table, I'll go and pick up the phone and try to sell the property or meet with a broker in order refinance or whatever that looks like. And so I can speak from my own experience that that's what worked for me was always easy. Absolutely not. There was a lot of very skinny days a lot more money going out that's come in over the past several years because I don't make an acquisition fee. I don't take an asset management fee. I don't take a fund management fee. I only get paid when my investors get their principal returned. So we buy value add properties apartment buildings that are distressed in some capacity. We go in we fix them all up. We renovate them. We rent them all out. We put better management in place and then we refinance in 12 to 18 months and then we're able to cash out our investors. They get all their money back and then we have all these refinance proceeds and then cash flow in perpetuity from then on and then we help hold onto the asset long term. So that's my business model it's the Byrd method for apartment buildings. I buy an apartment building I'm all into it for 65 percent of the after repair value and then I go and refinance it at a 70 or 75 percent LTV loan.    So if I'm all in for six and a half million bucks and the banks willing to give me a 75 percent loan and on a 10 million dollar valuation I'm able to then put a seven and a half million dollar loan on the property pay off the six and a half million dollars to investors in the acquisition loan and then I have a million dollars a refile proceeds that then I carve up amongst me my partners and the equity investors. So that's my entire business model and it was very difficult early on because I didn't take acquisition fees. I had those again a lot more money going out than money coming in. So what I do it exactly the same way. I don't know probably because it got me to where I am so I can't I don't have any regrets in that regard. But what I've taken an acquisition fee or maybe wholesale a few more properties or flipped a few more apartment buildings maybe just to help soften a little bit of the financial stress and cash flow management of it. But at the same time on our model's awesome our investors love our model our partners love our model and it is it's worth really really well for us. So for somebody else to come in and say ‘hey Tim should I burn the ships? Dude. I don't know what your work ethic is right? I don't know what your unique ability is. I don't know what your team's capabilities are. I was able to go and just focus on raising more money and finding more deals and doing a bunch of marketing stuff because I knew that my day to day operations was handled by my business partner my COO and my team. So it depends on what your resources are. But if you are resourceful enough you will be able to make this work and you can make the transition no problem. I will tell you this, I wish I would have made the transition weight way sooner than I did as far ahead as I am. Can you imagine buying apartment buildings I could buy in for 50 cents on the dollar if I would've gotten involved this heavily a year or two in advance- 50 percent of what they're going for today? So there's no better time to get rolling and then to do it right now today is the best day kind of a thing. Don't put off what your long term goals are. Whatever you're doing does not meet your long term goals. Burn the ships.    I actually think that it motivates you more when you do burn the ships to go out and get your head out of your ass kind of thing and figure this stuff out because now it's a little bit of a wakeup call knowing that if you either have to succeed or you've to die - that's the way the whole ships comes from.    Yes, I see what you're saying and I couldn't agree more. So tell us, Tim, what other types of sellers do you usually buy from and how many units you like to work with?    Yes, so I'd say now my average deal size is around 100 to 150 units per building of the four properties and closing on next week. Have a 40 unit which is right next to some bigger buildings that I have I have 116 units. I have a two hundred fifty two-unit and a two hundred forty unit. I'm buying all those buildings next week. So it ranges and depends on I'll buy stuff under one hundred units. If if there's paired up with one of my buddies usually 100 units are bigger. The reason for that is you can provide on-site property management and onsite meet its personnel it can withstand having that payroll there you'd see a lot of people getting into like 30 unit, 40 unit, 50 unit buildings. That's it's almost like it's a hell zone. It's a goldilocks zone in a bad way because you don't have the scalability of having on-site property managers or personnel or anything like that. At the same time, you don't have the scale of property management companies willing to give you a big discount or know it's just there's a lot of stuff going on in that realm once a little bit tougher.    So we try to say it usually over 80 units is the minimum that we'll go to and hope in four hundred two hundred units. I like two hundred units and bigger is my ideal clientele. But then you get the hedge funds and stuff that come in there and they're buying up everything that stabilizes. So my niche is really the value add stuff. It's stuff that's physically distressed or managerial or distressed and that comes from one of two sellers typically. One is mom and pops own the building great grandpa bought the building a while back or a couple bought the building 20 30 years ago and they've lived off of the cash flow for the past 20 years and so they've sucked every drip every drop of cash flow out of the property and never reinvested anything into it. And when you do that for 20 years guess what happens. Eventually, the roof goes. Eventually, the parking lot goes eventually the windows go. Eventually, the mechanicals goes and they don't have any money set aside in reserves and then reinvest it into the building. So now they're in a tight spot. They're not financeable, they don't have any cash. Their only option is to sell the property. So Mom and Pop owners who have owned the property for 10, 15, 20 years or longer -typically that's one of the people I buying from. And then the other people I buy from are smart wealthy entrepreneurs who are not full-time real estate investors are not full-time apartment investors. How is that possible? Because they make money in their traditional business and they need to park it somewhere and they think real estate is a safe investment. And it is if what you're doing right? So they go and they park it into real estate into an apartment building and then they don't have a joint venture partner. They don't have any equitable partner, boots on the ground who gets paid based on the performance of the property. They don't know how to manage a management company. They don't want to review the profit loss. They don't know what the expectations are and what happens is the management company ends up ripping them off. They don't hire the right management company or they hire one that just rips them off.    Eventually what happens is they're bleeding so much money on this property that they take their eye off the ball and the primary business is still going through the learning curve on the apartment building side and they end up losing one or both of their businesses because of it. I just bought seven-hundred units last year from a couple of stockbrokers out in New York. These guys make millions. Each of them makes millions of dollars every year. Brokerage stocks on Wall Street to buy a few hundred units down at Georgia. They think they're all set. They don't have a partner down there that interview the management company that knows what with the right questions are to ask. And because of that, the management company rip them off they're bleeding all sorts of cash flow from these properties because they're bleeding cash. They don't want to reinvest anything else into these properties because they're not sure if they're getting ripped off or not. So now they don't have enough cash flow to reinvest into the property to turn units. And then it's just a downward spiral that happens from there.    So we come in and we bought 700 units for 10 million bucks. That's fifteen thousand dollars per unit at a peak of a market right in the middle of the summer of 2018. How is that possible. Because we found motivated sellers. Now we had to put a bunch of money in I put another 15 almost 20 grand into every single unit. But now I'm all in for thirty-five thousand a unit. One of the buildings just appraised for sixty-eight thousand dollars per year. Wow. So I'm all in for almost 50 cents. Just over 50 cents on the dollar in that portfolio and it's going to be I'm all in for 25 million bucks let's say it'll appraise for just shy of 50 million dollars. So there are deals out there. I don't sixty-eight care who you are. Whether you think you can or you think you can't you're right.   I know that deal finding is a mindset. And I know that there's a motivated seller in every single market in the United States right now. I just need to find it there aren’t before a broker finds them. And so I try to find direct to seller off-market relationships the same way that you do in wholesaling. And I've just taken a lot of the same strategies and wholesaling residential real estate and I've moved that into acquiring apartment buildings so directly. Oh great. You can. You can do direct mail for apartment buildings to driving for dollars. Great. There are houses with tall grass and boarded up windows. Guess what. There's an apartment building with tall grass and boarded up windows. Dialing for dollars instead of calling for sale by owner residential. I call for rent by owner apartment buildings. So we say hey I'm not interested in renting your place I'm interested in buying the whole thing. Do you have any interest in selling? Just get the conversations out there. Start planting the seeds and eventually they will sprout. I don't know if it's going to be 60 days later, six months later, six years later but eventually, the seeds will sprout. You've got to keep on planting seeds. It's a much longer-term mindset than wholesaling real estate. This is for long term wealth. This is not a get rich quick. So you've got to have a long term vision and a long term mentality and realize you're building wealth for generations to come. Don't expect that you're going to get all these apartment buildings in the first two weeks.    Yes, I totally agree with you. Because you can make good money or even great money in residential. But I guess it's safe to say you truly start to get wealthy when you think bigger and understand that it's a longer play.    So tell us a little bit about your underwriting. A lot of people look at they got these fancy calculators. They're paying hundreds of dollars for it. See if Facebook ads for it. I think it's all B.S. I don't use any fancy calculators. What I do is I do some back of the napkin math on what the stabilized rents can be. So I don't care if it rents for five hundred bucks a month right now. I go and look up what market-rate rent is for a two-bedroom unit and if it's 750 a month then I'm going to take one hundred units or however many units are at the complex times 750 gives me seventy-five thousand dollars a month in gross potential rental income. I know what my expense ratios are. Most of my buildings are 40 to 45 percent expense ratio, so I can five thousand a month. That's nine hundred grand a year. And then multiply it by let's say point six because of a 40 percent expense ratio. And that gives me was five hundred forty thousand dollars of net income of NOI. If I want to buy it a 10 percent cap rate that means the most I've got to be all into that thing four is five point four million dollars. Then I back out my construction budget. It's gonna cost on average ten thousand dollars in unit times one hundred units that's a million bucks so my maximum allowable offer on that is four-point four million bucks. We'll go in somewhere around four million dollars and hopefully close the deal somewhere between four and four-point four million. And then from there, I get all the due diligence from a seller. Rent rolls, Profit Loss Statements, trailing twelves, tax returns, and Utility bills. All that stuff I handed over my commercial mortgage broker who then packages it all up and pulls all the data from co-star and all the different commercial data aggregators and puts together his entire package that the banks are going to underwrite as well. It's not like he's making up any numbers these are actual numbers. They've all come from somewhere. The real financials I let him underwrite the deal. If a bank's going to underwrite it and put up the first mortgage of 80 percent of the purchase price and cost of this thing guess what you do they're gonna do their due diligence. Absolutely. So I let them do their due diligence. Why do I need to go through all the brain damage in under in order to underwrite this thing? I just do back the napkin type math. Make sure it works submit the letter of intent and then I hand everything over to my commercial mortgage broker. He underwrites everything then tells me that it makes a lot of sense to go ahead and do it. And usually, my math is much less than what we can actually pay for it. When he does his math he might say hey we can actually pay five million bucks for this thing is that a four-point four million. And guess what. That's just extra juice and a squeeze for us because we went in the right number. So that's it then that's all I do.    So you think what makes you such a good investor is the fact that first of all, you came from residential and you had some residential techniques as far as I'm doing direct mail and marketing to get to the sellers? And so the other thing that I want to ask you about that is also I mean how do you get to these people? Like what else do you do besides just sending them letters and getting in touch with these millionaires that have a lot of money that they're looking to park somewhere because it's not really easy to get to these people. They're rich people they're busy.    So how do you get in touch with them for private money? I know I'm talking about when you're finding motivated sellers for properties from the properties that you were talking about.    Motivated sellers everywhere. What are the 4Ds? Death, Disease, Divorce, Disaster. Right? You go to Pensacola and like Panama City, Florida and that hurricane that went through last fall decimated Panama City. Guess what? That's a disaster. There's a lot of people motivated sellers in that area going take their insurance proceeds and let the property go. There are some deals there. So that's disaster death. I just bought four hundred units earlier this year and in Georgia from a guy who inherited 400 units from his parents who passed away a few years ago he's been living off the cash flow. He lives in a little bungalow on the beach on the Gulf Coast of Florida. And he just doesn't care. And so does he want to do the work in order to try to get 16 million out of this apartment building or is he willing just like let it goes and for 13 million dollars and he let it go for 13 million dollars and we came in bought it and got a good deal on it and stabilized it and now it's worth north of 25 - 30 million dollars.    So like there are deals out there death disease divorce disaster in every market going. You can do probate leads and apartment buildings the same way you do probate leads in. It's just reaching out to these people just because like I'm a millionaire. Right? So I get mail the same way that everybody else gets mail. I have a cell phone that rings the same way that everybody else's cell phone rings. So if you can get a hold of me, I am selling properties I am buying properties and I'm a passive investor in different properties as well. So if you build any one of those funnels you're building all three of those funnels because in commercial real estate a buyer is a seller is a private money lender. It just depends on timing. I'm right now a net buyer, I'm buying more than I'm selling but I am selling some of my smaller buildings right now. So if you if I'm on your list and you see me that buying properties you can wholesale property to me you can buy a property from me, you can joint venture on a deal with me because I'll passively invest in other people's deals and bring the equity I'll maybe sometimes even co-sign on the loan sponsor their loan and get involved in different capacities that way.    So if you feel any one of those funnels you're looking for private money or you're looking for buyers of multifamily real estate or you'll more sellers of multifamily real estate find a marketing funnel that works for each one of those. And by building one of those funnels it builds all three of those funnels and then you can drip the same marketing content. I had everybody into a simple email drip campaign and I sent him an email once a week said hey I'm looking to buy properties. You got anything you're looking to sell? And I let people send me deals and ninety-nine percent of them are crap but there's a needle in the haystack. Every once in ninety-nine while the other thing that I do is I give content they look at I'm joint venturing with this person and here's how I under underwrote the deal and here's how I structured the deal. They have 30 percent equity but there's in the project. I have a percentage of equity, our investors have a percentage of equity and guess what everybody gets paid. This guy couldn't get involved in this apartment building deal unless I came in and partnered up with him. Now he's able to start building generational legacy wealth for his family. How does that sound? Great. If you want to bring me deals bring it to me. I'll fund your deals. So now I have people who want to partner with me on projects I people want to wholesale deals and the people who want it so I'm just I'm telling people all the time on social media through my email campaigns of what I'm doing of how I'm doing it and I'm not the biggest investor in the country but I'm one of the best known because I'm just consistent with my marketing across the board.    I see well these are amazing techniques and I really think you're doing things differently from all the guest we had on the show. Nobody is doing things the way you're doing.    One of the things I do is I just keep it simple. I think commercial real estate is such an antiquated, old school method, methodology and how everybody does it they all do broker relationships. You don't have a broker relationship and how are you gonna get a deal. And so you've got to be willing to do just kind of off the cuff different kinds of things that other people aren't willing to do. You'll find deals that other people can't find. So one of the things that I do is again all these different strategies on the residential side that I implemented and I do the same thing on commercial real estate. And none of the other old school investors in town are doing that. They're not doing direct mail they're not doing it like that. The only people I'm competing with on direct mail is brokers. Do you think somebody calls back a broker or a callback actual buyer rather callback a buyer?  Of course, so and then I develop relationships with residential wholesalers, residential investors and I let everybody know that I buy apartment buildings so they come across apartment buildings too? They just don't know how to underwrite them or don't know what to do with them can't raise the money. And so then they sent him to me because I'm top of mind all the time and we get a lot of deals that way. But during my deals actually, come from that. I don't spend much money on advertising.    Yeah. So once you purchase the property what kind of value strategies do you usually apply?   Yeah. So a good question. Apartment buildings are 100 percent based on the income approach. That's how they're valued that they're valued based on how much income does this property achieve right? On an annualized basis they don't care what the building on the down the street sold on a per-unit basis because that size could be different. It could be tenant-paid utilities versus landlord paid utilities it's a lot of differences and variations. It will depend on a building down the street is the cap rate that it's sold at. That's the only thing that's based on a comparable per-unit is the cap rates in the area. So if you can increase the income or the net income of your apartment building then you can increase the value and it's very predictable how you can do that how you increase the net operating income you could do two things. One is you can increase the gross income but you can also to decrease the expenses of the property. So we do both of those so we increase the rents. How do you increase the rents? It's by renovating units know by attracting better tenants who are willing to pay more by having nicer cleaner safer more functional more aesthetically pleasing type units. You do that. You could also add amenities dog parks, workout rooms, pools, clubhouses, laundry, covered parking, storage like there are a thousand different things you could do to increase the income and add additional revenue streams to the property. Like when I was in New York everybody to have cell phone towers on top of the buildings they got rent from that- there'd be billboards on the side of buildings they make rent from that. There's a lot of different avenues to generate income on these things. So once you generate all the income that you possibly can. Now you're looking at how do I decrease all the expenses. So you could do all the energy-efficient, plumbing fixtures, light fixtures all that stuff's going to reduce your utility bills. We harden our units and what I mean by that is we don't put carpet in because carpet wears off replaced every few years holds bugs and holds dirt. It's hard to turn when a tenant moves out. You gotta wash it and then not walk on it for a day. Time is there. So what we do is we do luxury vinyl tile in every single one of my units and you can sweep it in mop it and be done with it in 30 minutes. It doesn't wear the same way. Carpet does it doesn't hold bugs, it doesn't hold dirt, people can't put their cigarettes that burn cigarette marks out on it and it just looks nicer it attracts better tenants. So we do things like that to harden the property and minimize ongoing maintenance as well. The reason we do larger apartment buildings is that the whole management thing. So now I can have onsite property managers and onsite maintenance staff to reduce my ongoing maintenance, to reduce my ongoing management, attracting better tenants and more qualified tenants. Screening them better and having nicer units than down the street and still just charging market-rate rent. Not trying to get a premium out of it. We're able to attract the best tenants and they stay longer. Your biggest expense and only rental property are going to be turnover. So if you can minimize your turnover you're going to be able to increase your income increases your returns pretty significantly long term on that apartment building. So you do all those different kinds of things. You increase the income, you decrease the expenses, and the end of the day your NOI is much greater and then the cap rate that it appraises at is a multiple of that and now you're able now you're in the ballgame. It's very predictable what the stabilized value is going to be on our properties. I know what I know it's going to praise for before I ever even buy it. So we know what numbers we just back into the numbers that way.    Yeah. So it sounds like here you're doing things differently. Also in and renovating the property so I'm curious to know about how you raised money because I bet you have some secrets over there as well.    Yeah, that's one of my unique abilities I'd say I'm pretty decent because I've done everything else so it's easy for me to talk from an operational basis, from an investment basis to my investors. And like on these deals that are closing next week we just raise six point eight million dollars over the course the past probably three weeks. It took us to raise almost seven million bucks and it was not as I wouldn't say it wasn't difficult but it wasn't as hard and it wasn't as much work as I thought it would be it was actually a lot simpler and smoother of a process than I thought. It's the most I've ever had a raise in a single deal before I've ever raised 3-4 million bucks in a single deal before but this is the most I had to raise. I've not got a single deal but in closings, all occurring in one day know how it lined up but all four of these properties are all closed on the same day. So how do you raise money? You tell people what you got man, you gotta tell everybody what you do and how you do it. And I think you need to have an offer that cannot be beaten. That's just it's so good that everybody has to listen or at least entertain the idea of investing with you and so what we do is we pay a 10 percent preferred rate of return regardless of the property's performance we're paying a 10 percent fixed pref. So you invest a hundred thousand dollars with us you're making ten thousand dollars a year regardless of the property's performance. And then when we refinance it's a pretty quick turnaround usually 12 to 18 months. Our investors get all their money back and then they keep equity in perpetuity so they get a little bit of equity in the deal forever. So they get a percentage of those refinanced proceeds that come off the table. They get a percentage of the cash flow they get a percentage of the depreciation and they get a percentage of any future sales proceeds. So now it's an infinite return because they made a solid return double-digit return respectable return on their money while it was in play. They get all their money back and now they have an infinite return on their investment because they have five proceeds. Cash flow forever and equity in the deal and they don't have anything invested anymore. And the next question is ‘hey Tim let's go do another deal. Do you have anything else? I don't want my money back. Let's roll it and do another deal.’    Then I roll it into another one and another one and another one in ten years down the road. I'm in seven or eight different deals that I'm partnered up with this person and they have these little almost annuities right here in their bank account on a monthly basis of the cash flow from all seven or eight different properties. They made a phenomenal return while their money was in play. They have all their money back and they have equity in seven or eight different deals that will pay off these big pops of re proceeds and sales proceeds whenever the property sells. And then every month their equity increases that we pay down the mortgage balance on these properties and every year that we bump rents and the property appreciates their equity increases over time. And now they're building real wealth. Right. So not only that making a good return on their investment but they're actually building wealth for them and their families. And it's a win-win all around. Now I don't have to work as hard because they want to do more deals. It breeds a lot of loyalty with my investors and it just makes sense that way. But I tell everybody that I invest in real estate. I tell them how I structure deals you cannot pitch people. There are S.E.C. violations to pitching people that you don't know or posting something on social media like I don't do anything like that. I post about deals that I have going on and post about case studies that I did and from that people inquire and they say ‘Hey man I'm sitting on some coin. Do you have anything that I can roll into?’ Well, let's develop a relationship first. Tell me a little bit more about your background. Tell me a little bit more about what you have going on right now. It's about a little bit about your experience in real estate investing. Tell me what your long term and short term goals are. Once I develop the relationship then I can tell them, oh this deal just came up. It fits and meets your needs. You're a good match for this. You're accredited. You're not accredited. Whatever that looks like. And then you can move to the right project.    That's amazing so yeah you're the first person that ever told me that they're paying 10 percent to prefer return but somehow it makes so much sense to me, to be honest. I mean that's amazing that you do things so differently than anybody else.    And it's a dude. It all boils down to finding good deals one and being an awesome Operator. You gotta be able to oversee the value add project management you've got to be able to oversee. I mean on that 700 unit deal I bought last summer we put 10 million dollars of renovations into this thing. So you think about that in a year and three months. We invested 10 million dollars. What is that  That's six and a half or six under fifty thousand dollars a month. We're doing renovations it takes a hell of an operator to be able to do that right. So what's not all of our deals. Some of them are less but I mean on on our projects they're gonna be able to find really good deals and or do really good project management in order to force the appreciation by putting in that sweat equity and that's why we can pay the returns that we pay because we take on a lot of that responsibility on our side as the operators. Yeah but again I told you at the beginning man I'm cool with it. We're cool getting our hands dirty work, we're cool with doing the work that nobody else is willing to do because then we get the deals that nobody else is willing to- they can find and or they're willing to work on.    Yeah and I bet there are bigger rewards for these kinds of deals.    Massive. I mean I'd rather buy a building that's worth 10 million. Like the hedge funds go in and buy 10 million dollar building for 10 million dollars and hope that it appreciates by 3 percent every year for the next 10 years. I don't come from that world. I'm an investor. I gotta find a wholesale deal right. So I'd rather buy and renovate something that I could be all into for six and a half million dollars. That then it for 10 million and still and still appreciates by 3 percent every single year. So that's more, my business model. And by doing it that way I'm also very safe for any market corrections or any anything that happens in the marketplace. I'm at a low enough basis in my properties. If and when shit hits the fan I have options right. I could sell. I can refinance. I can hold. I can do whatever the heck I want because I bought at a low enough cost basis and I've created appreciation versus speculating for appreciation.    Yeah and that's amazing. I think if I if I'd be investing in multifamily apartments as a passive investor I'd definitely be interested in talking to you. So what are the best ways to connect with you?    I'm active on social media Facebook. I'm really active. I have a podcast my own called LegacyWealthShow.com - I got a lot of free content there and I do a little bit of mentoring not a lot. I'm not a guru. I was approached by some guys who have an education business and they said ‘hey man you keep on doing what you're doing as an active Operator we'll do the education side’ but it's a good way that I'm able to train people on how to go out and find apartment buildings and be great operators and at the same time sometimes they have needs that they can't fill and I can invest in their projects. I can raise money I can sponsor loans for them. They can be boots on the ground they can find the deals do the project management and I can fill any voids that they might have. And there are other people who can come out to my events and I came out of it sitting on money I want to get involved in commercial real estate. I don't have the time or the bandwidth to do it myself but can I marry up with a great operator? There's a lot of passive investors that come out to my events that then we pair up with awesome operators or they invest in one of my projects or whatever and we're able to do deals together. So it's one of those things where one plus one equals three and a rising tide floats all boats. I give all the content that you could ever want to go out do deal on your own and if you want me involved and want to partner up some way knowing that you have somebody with my expertise my experience my team's experience in your corner is a big deal for a lot of my students. So I throw events three-four times a year as well and that's pretty cool it's kind of a way that I can kind of give back and help people build some of that wealth for the family too. So that's called Commercial Empire and if anybody wants information on that they go to commercialempire.com. That's more formal training.    Ok, wonderful. So Tim thank you very much for coming to our show today and I really hope we are going to have a beautiful rest of your day.    I appreciate you guys. Thank you for all the value that you guys give and all that you're doing for the real estate community and obviously if there's anything I can do to help you guys out as you guys transition into commercial real estate let me know.    I'm here for you. All right thank you very much.    Thanks for listening to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden. Stay tuned for more episodes. Till next time.   

ow how to deploy it and learn about real estate. Started with the single-family space. And so, the first thing I bought was a fourplex than a bunch of houses. And then I realized it was too much brain damage in terms of just scaling. Right. I mean it's, having 12 insurance policies, 12 tenants and 12 loans and 12 of everything is kind of a pain. And so, learn about multifamily and then kind of the rest of the history. So, I've been running with that since.   James: Yes. I really disliked, the insurance part of the single family because--   Feras Moussa: Yes.   James: --lot of it expires at different times of the year.   Feras Moussa: That's my biggest pain point honestly and I literally will, I'm willing to pay a premium for a broker that'll just take care of it and I just don't have to think about it because it's just not worth the hassle of thinking through and spending the time and effort there.   James: Yes. Yes. I think you can pay like a monthly is the same amount and it's all automated, but insurance is one thing you have to print out and you have to scan, and you have to do all kinds of things.   Feras Moussa: Yes.   James: So, let's go a bit more into the thought process here before we go into the details of your deals and all that. So, three IT guys, right? I'm also with an electrical engineering background with some software. Why do you think a lot of these IT guys like commercial real estate investing, especially in multifamily?   Feras Moussa: Yeah, I mean.   Ben Suttles: From my perspective, I think it's the numbers right. I think it's-- you come from a kind of an analytical side of the brain, right? And I think in real estate, a lot of it is numbers driven. Now there's a relationship side of the business, right? Which we all have to have. We have to have that side of it to raise equity and obviously work with the brokers and stuff like that, but at the end of the day, it's a numbers game, right? You've got to be able to underwrite the deals. You've got to be able to make, projections, financial projections and all that as numbers and spreadsheet driven. And I think that's a lot of why the IT and engineering guys, get into this space. Also, I think the other thing is too is that allows us to be creative. When we're not able to be creative in some, some respects, whenever you're able to kind of put your stamp on the rehab of a property and improve that and, and kind of get out and roll your sleeves up. That's another thing that we were lacking probably in a lot of our jobs. And so, I think, at least personally for me, that that might be part of the reason why, I don't know, Feras might have another take on it as well.   Feras Moussa: Well, no, I think the numbers things. Definitely one of the biggest factors, but it's also, it's a space that you can learn it yourself, right? Meaning, you know, a lot of engineers are willing to go above and beyond, spend the effort, research, read books and learn it. You can do that in this space and, there's not like an engineering exam at the end of it where you have to do, you can pass. Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: And so, it's the kind of thing where you can learn it and it makes sense, right? The numbers don't lie. And so, two engineers, right? It's like, you can see a clear path of the progression, right? There's not like a leap of faith any point in time. And then the other part of it too is problem-solving, right? I think all engineers like problem-solving as part of the challenge. And to me, that's what I like about multifamily. It's bigger and harder, right? Sure. I could've probably scaled out a rental portfolio part, really wanted to, but I mean, it's just not fun to buy, hundred thousand-dollar assets, $150,000. It's a lot more fun to do bigger projects, a bigger team, and really, work through each issue as it comes up.   James: Yes. Yes. I mean in my mind is a lot about-- I mean real estates, there's a lot of creative thinking that you need to put on and that's really fun, right? Because you want to, I mean, I'm sure when you guys handle deals, we want to solve that problem. Right?   Feras Moussa: Yes, absolutely.   James: You want to break; I'm going to break that deal. Right? Hey, why? Like for me, I always say, how can I break this deal? Why you should, why you should work for me. Right? That's why I think, I'm sure you guys do that too.   Ben Suttles: I was doing that earlier yesterday, man. Yes, man, [inaudible 13:36], how do you blow up the deal, right? And--   James: How do you blow up the deal? There must be something wrong with this deal. Let's find that out.   Ben Suttles: [crosstalk 13:42].   Feras Moussa: Oh yes that's fun. Let's have a deal that makes sense. It's like, this not right, I'm just going to offer a lower, I might've otherwise because something doesn't make me, go 100%.   James: Yes. If that [inaudible] make sense, you are like, let's say to break it. Something must be wrong and when you can't break it then, then it makes sense. That okay, that's [inaudible 13:58].   Feras Moussa: Yes.   Ben Suttles: That's the one.   Feras Moussa: And then the other part too is that it's a people game, right? I mean, so something, some engineers might not like it, but at least me, I mean nothing. Ben, same. We like it because it's a team effort. It's not one person. It's how do you combine people really get the thing done both on, on the GP side as well as the operations side, right? How do you build rapport with your manager, with your regional, whoever it is? Right. And kind of help accomplish the goals and give them motivated. To me, that's part of the fun.   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: I guess what we do is like project management on steroids.   Ben Suttles: Feras, if you touch us up on that, that was really interesting to earlier which was the project management piece, which I had forgotten about. I mean a lot of us to come from big, we've done big projects, we've worked with teams and let's be honest, and this is a team sport, right?   James: Absolutely.   Ben Suttles: This is, yes you could maybe be solo and respectful, you've got a team in the background that's helping you accomplish your goal and you've got project management or manage that whole entire process in order to get it to close. And then even after you're closing it, right? In order to asset management or to do the asset management, to do the construction management and for you James too, you do the property management.   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: All of that stuff is, you're juggling a lot of different pieces and making sure that the ball is continuously moving forward towards that goal. And I think a lot of IT and engineering folks come from that background, understand that. So, once you can kind of segue that into the commercial real estate state space, it's just essentially just project management at the end of the day.   James: Yes. Yes. You one might, throughout my 22 years in the corporate world, I think 16 years I was a manager and I was also a project manager and I was a very good project manager. I need all that translates to this multimillion-dollar business that you're managing, right?   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: Because to make sure your transactions happen correctly; you need to make sure you communicate to people. And that's what we all learned in project management. But how do you over communicate? How do you make sure people don't mess up? How do you take proactive action to de-risk a project? Right? So that's, that's how the game is played. Even in the commercial real estate with this [crosstalk 16:00].   Ben Suttles: And it's never going to be straight forward. Right? There are always challenges.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: So, I mean, that's where, we're those project management skills really kind of come into play because, anybody can run a smooth project, right? And we're nothing ever bad happened, but let's just be honest. There's always something that happens.   James: Yes, yes.   Ben Suttles: And so, you have to, you have to have that, that acumen to be able to, to keep that ball moving forward towards that common goal.   James: Yes. So apart from the, IT education itself, do you guys think that your work experience, the classes that you have been at your workplace and the environment that you have gone through? I mean as given certain edge to you guys as well.   Feras Moussa: I will say absolutely. Like I said, I mean what we do is project management on steroids. Right? And so, having done that for years had-- knowing how to keep track of multiple projects simultaneously. That's another thing too, right? A lot of people will get into the business and they realize like, hey, syndicating start to finish is not a walk in the park. There's a lot that happens, both lending and legal and issues come up and they, it's a lot to keep track of. But then she tried to do two deals at a time. Right. And how would, it's not really two weeks, it's kind of a square, issues. So, I would say absolutely. Right. And then the other thing that we've seen, being on the tech side is how do we differentiate ourselves from other people too, right? How do we, create a better impression for investors? How do you position, everything professionally, right? All of our stuff is mobile friendly. All of our stuff, certain ways. And those are the things that I've brought at least from the tech world, to make sure that we kind of do and do well.   Ben Suttles: Yes, I think, I think efficiencies, right? That you come from that IT engineering background, it's all about productivity, efficiency, how can we automate things and James you probably saw the same thing when he got into space and to completely fracture. A lot of it is backward or outdated and there's a, there's a lot of low hanging fruit stuff, ways that can be improved and I'm sure your team is looking to do that constantly and so are we. And that's all come that comes from our background, right?   James: Background, yes.   Feras Moussa: I told Ben I have to stop myself from wanting to start a software company every few months. Being an entrepreneur and being a software guy, it's like man, this place some of the stuff we do is pretty archaic.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Yes.   Ben Suttles: I think real estate is the last, most, what it called?   Feras Moussa: [crosstalk 18:28].   James: Fragmented industry, you know, that is, they're like something like AI or something is going to take over soon, right. Because there's so much inefficiency.   Ben Suttles: Yes. But it's, you can take it to an extent, but then there's that personal side, that relationship side. Right. And I think that's kind of, that's, that's one of the parts that I took from my former job, which was, a lot of sales and business development work as well. Right. Taking that, that networking, that relationship building side, that building rapport side into this space. But, I mean, I agree. I think there's their software and AI and these types of things are going to automate a lot of that back-office part of the process and maybe even the analysis piece. But there's always going to have to be those two people coming together to make a deal happen, right?   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Because ultimately, it's going to be one person or one group and trying to sell on one group trying to buy, and you have to come with some kind of an agreement. Right. And then even after you buy it, right, there's always those relationships with vendors and employees and all those different things that you have to kind of manage to. But anything that we can bring and that we've seen in our past gig where we could make that more efficient here, we're, we're obviously trying to introduce that.   James: Got It. Got It, got it. So, let's go back to the business side of it. So, what are your guys' focus, in terms of market? Right now, currently Atlanta and some cities in Texas, right? Why don't you guys talk about, why did you choose these two markets?   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, in terms of why we chose them, I mean, the same reason you're probably in San Antonio to some degree, right? We're looking for strong, attractive markets that are not a single industry that is growing right. Population and the business side. And then, really the important thing for us to is the yield, right. So that's why we got into San Antonio too, was that we can't find returns in Houston. We look at a lot of bills and use of our base and we don't own anything in Houston, right? We're looking for returns that we can, that that will actually, you are looking for deals that'll give actual turns, foreign investors. That's also why we don't look in Dallas, right? Price points are too high that you having to pay so much that you basically have no yield on the deal. And so that's kind of what really got us into Atlanta. We got us into San Antonio as well and yes, Beaumont's kind of a slight story, but those are the things that we look for. And then in terms of future deals, right? If future markets, so, we've really kind of manage to, I would say streamline a lot more of our acquisition pipeline, right? In terms of underwriting deals, identifying deals and really keeping a pipeline going. And so, what that's allowed us to do, especially with a fulltime asset manager now, is we can look at a lot more deals. So, we've kind of identified two markets that we want to get into, hopefully, this year. Orlando in North Carolina. And that just, just to give us, just to keep our pipeline going. Right. We can keep looking at more and more and more deals. Yes, we'll hopefully be finding something that makes sense.   Ben Suttles: Absolutely.   James: So how do you guys choose your market? So, like now you say Orlando and not Carolina, right? So, I have a lot of stats on Orlando because I know it's growing very quickly. So, let's take, not Carolina. Why did you guys identify? Not Carolina?   Ben Suttles: I mean, I think, I think all of it boils down to population growth, job growth. We also like to find areas and that's not every single market, but I like to see a good concentration of different universities and colleges as well because I feel like a lot of the bigger corporations are going to follow where they're going to have a good funnel of potential students to take from it as well. So, we'll look in college towns as well too, because, but let's be honest, North Carolina, it's got, the research triangle, it's got a ton of universities. And, it's calling to be called the Wall Street of the south. The problem with North Carolina is that we're not the only ones looking there. So, it's, it's pretty competitive there too. But it's got a lot of those good data points that we like to see in terms of population economic growth--   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: --that you see in Texas and in Georgia. And really, we are, we look at in Texas for quite some time and we found Georgia was very, very similar in a lot of ways to Texas. And so that's the reason we started kind of focusing on Atlanta as well. But it ultimately boils down to, is there enough population job growth to continue to drive demand for the workforce housing that we're, that we're looking for. So, people are always like, well, you're not renting out to fortune 500 folks. So why do you care about that? I'm saying, well, the ancillary service companies and service jobs, they're going to feed into this white-collar job is what we're looking for. So, if you don't have any of the fortune 500 stuff rights, then there's not any real need for a lot of the infrastructure where a lot of these people are going to be working. So, when you, when you look at it in Texas, when you look at it and Georgia, right? One of those people is there. So there has to be serviced workforce type jobs that are going to have to be feeding into that. And that's why we like those markets. And, we see a lot of that same type of thing happening in Orlando and some other markets and Florida and as well as North Carolina. And we've looked in Tennessee, we've looked in some other spots as well. From us we've got so much deal flow coming in that in order for us to be a little bit more strategic work as a team, we've decided to focus on about three or four major markets and then just go deep on those and then we can go horizontal and find out that markets in the future.   James: Got It. So, let's say now today you're getting a deal, right? Let's say from North Carolina, what other steps that you guys take? So today let's say, I mean how do you guys get deals nowadays. Is it through broker relationship, off-market, on the market? How are you guys sorting out the deal flow?   Ben Suttles: Yes, everything in between. A lot of it is brokers. A lot of is people that know what's his buyers, people that you know, we will get the deal closed, right? Whether it's the broker that knows it and they might know. Seller. One thing I tell every broker is like, hey, if you have a deal that you don't have the exclusive on and you need someone to make a pre-emptive offer to try to get that locked down. Like, where are your guys? Right? So, you find ways to motivate the broker is motivated. Other people that know someone that knows someone. So, we, I mean really deals come in all shapes and forms. And so, for us, the biggest volume is definitely the brokers, but it's really, it's not about the ones that they just email outlasted, right? It's really about the follow-up deals that maybe are near, getting to the finish line and getting the finish line in terms of the-- in terms of the marketing, but they haven't had any such interest or for whatever reason. Right. So, I think that's important. So, once the deal comes through in terms of the analysis side of LLC, dig into the P12, dig into the OEM, but more importantly, talk to them. Sorry, go ahead.   James: I'm just saying, what do you look for first in the deal? Do you get a-- so you get a deal, what do you look for? What are the, what do you, what's your sniff test because I --   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: underwrite everything, right? What's the sniff test?   Feras Moussa: I'll tell you what my first sniff test. I look at what the average rents are and what their price point is, and then I can deduce from that, right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Is this going to be anywhere. And really what I'm doing kind of mentally ballparking what the cap might be. Right? But really, I'm looking at what are the average rents and what does the purchase price. Right. And then yield. Is there, are they close enough that I think that there's some meat on the bone, right? It's really what it boils down to. I'll give you a real example. There was a deal in Atlanta that I-- so North Atlanta, Atlanta has a really unique market. North Atlanta is really expensive. South Atlanta is the complete opposite. There's a deal that came through on the northern side and I think the average rents on that deal were like, 850 $900. So, I'm okay, this one might be at a reasonable price point. Right? And so, I'm like in my head, mentally I'm like, okay, let me call the broker. If this is 80 maybe 90 you know, there's a deal to be had here. Hey, call the broker. And it's 130 a door, right? So, I mean, that already instantly ruled it out. And so, you're really looking for some of those kinds of low hanging fruit just to figure out, okay, is this still even in the ballpark for us to look into it anymore.   Ben Suttles: Yes, absolutely. And I think the first sniff test James is really, I mean then the location of it too, right? Do you know what I mean? We're getting the deal flow and these places that we want to be, and we've identified different pockets within those submarkets that we want to be in. So, if it's not within one of those pockets and we're automatically, putting that to the side. Now that doesn't mean that there's not a deal there. Right.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: So those are usually kind of the maybe deals and we're, we want to kind of circle back maybe we're bored or something. Let's do that one-- -   Feras Moussa: Exactly, whether we are bored, we go back and look at those deals.   Ben Suttles: Yes, we'll go back and take a look at those. Right. But we're looking for that are going to be the net, that those are some market pockets, right? That we like. And then from there, right, just like what Feras was saying, you can almost, you can almost immediately tell if it's going to work. Right. And you pencil out so many deals. I mean, we, at this point we've analysed hundreds and hundreds of deals. So, you can on them almost look and say, oh, that's not going to work for us. Right. Just based on what they're asking for. And you can also kind of tell that to, by the price per pound versus, sometimes the median income of the area. Right. I mean, are you going to be able to achieve the rent that it's going to, it's going to take to make that deal work. And if you're going to be maxing out your median income, then it's not going to work either.   Ben Suttles: So, a lot of the things that we look at, population growth, we look at job growth, all those things too. But one of the things that we also look at as the median income, right? And a lot of these is workforce housing, right? So, I mean, you look at, what's the, what's the average rent? We're usually doing the three-x income test. Whenever we're taking perspective tenants in, right? Like everybody should, and then you determine, what the median income level is and if you're going to be maxing that out, you're above that, then the first sign that something is going wrong, let's get ready to skip. They're going to stop paying rent, right? So, you want to make sure that you're under that, right? You don't want to; you don't want to be at the top of the market. Yes. Maybe they can keep up with it for a month or two where they're going to get behind. And so very, very cognizant of that.   Feras Moussa: And to add those, it's not that, if it's a lower income area, we won't buy a deal very well. It's really these are just kind of rules of thumb. And then from that, you start to work back, okay, well if it's a lower income area, can assume they are economic occupancy is going to be much slower. So, you should underwrite it that way. Right? Cause there's a deal to be had anywhere, right? I mean I'll buy any deal at the right price point, right? Assuming as long as it's, to me at least this has been new instead of a growing market. Right. And that's not a deal at f four worry about the city, essentially no one even wanted to live in that general area. But in terms of price points, in terms of, average incomes, all of that, it's really, again, depending on what price point are we buying it at.   James: So, let's say the rent and the price seems reasonable right? At the first sniff test, what's your next level sniff test? What do you guys do?   Feras Moussa: Then and actually started this. The thing I do before that is actually called the broker and just get there [inaudible 29:18].   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Right? And that's the first, usually, right? Because a lot of times there's more to this story, right? Is it, is it a partnership where you know, one of the sellers passed away and they're looking, you know, they're a little bit more motivated or is it a deal that just, the Bro, I've had brokers a little bit tell me these sellers are terrible operators, right? And you can kind of, and if you have a relationship with a broker, there'll be honest with you about that aspect. Right? Brokers are all, a lot of times brokers, I don't want to say always, but there'll always be, a lot of times we'll say, yeah, you know, you could do this and this and get, a $200 rent pop. Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: Take that with a grain of salt. But I'm looking for something that's kind of that ancillary information to help the deuce. Like, Hey, is there an actual opportunity to do, what's the value add that we can do is we can kind of take that into what we just talked about. Then kind of once, like you said, once you know the numbers make sense or the deals make sense, then you start to dig in and near. That's where we really do just to, go down to the numbers, right. Look at the t 12, look at where they are today on expenses. Look at where we think we will be on expenses. Where, what does the rent currently, right? What's the spread on just the rent, the market rents versus what their marketing right. Today. I mean kind of, we really starting to put the bigger picture together. Right. And then understanding is, hey, does this make sense at a high level? Right? Yes. That's us. Sorry, go ahead.   Ben Suttles: Oh, I was just going to say, what I mean, we don't even look at the OEM. Right. Do you know what I mean? We're going straight from our perspective, right. That just use your, you'll get, you'll get the skinny from the broker, right? Because they'll usually-- but the marketing packages is the marketing package. Right. And I feel like that sometimes skews people's numbers when they look in. Concentrate on that a little bit too closely. So, it's always best than if it passes your initial test and you talked to the broker and there might be something there and you just go straight to the spreadsheet analysis. Right. Because, I mean if you start trying to dissect what they're going-- what they have in terms of pro forma income and expenses, then you start getting that none of those numbers in your mind. And guess what, there, they're making those numbers work. So, we always, we always go straight to that and then only then do I then look at the OEM and I see how far apart we are. And usually, it's pretty significant. But, it's those classic sales tips, like, below replacement costs and all of these things that they love to say, that makes it sound so sexy.   James: Yes, its--   Ben Suttles: At the end of the day and it has to pencil out. It's all about the numbers.   James: Yes. I remember in one of the deals I never look at the OM until I close because I need a logo for that property. And I say where is the logo and then I called the broker, you understand the OM, I say yes.   Feras Moussa: Oh, you had the floor plan. Yes, we had that for the floor plan. You go back to the OM and grab the floor plan that [inaudible 31:56]--   James: Exactly.   Feras Moussa: --time and effort on.   James: Yes, yes, we did a floor plan and the logo from the OM, that's it.   Ben Suttles: There you go.   James: So, it's interesting. And so, the type of deals that you guys do, I mean, where do you categorize it? Value add deep value add or [inaudible 32:14] yield play or core type of tails.   Feras Moussa: I mean right now we're focused on value add. I mean we would like to do a more, really to me, the ideal deal for us now or given where we are given, our network, et cetera. It's really kind of that B minus space. Right? We've done the heavy value add, it's a lot of work. Right? And those skills have worked out. They performed, but for us, I mean it's just she consumes you, right to some degree. And so, we're trying to less of those and we try to vary it up. Right. Always have a value add going on, having a stabilized going on. Just cause from a bandwidth perspective, right, we can kind of handle one at a time, but we don't want to take on three big value add the one time because then he would get lost in that. And so, I think for us we're typically in that C plus B minus space is really the focus for us.   Ben Suttles: Yes, yes.   Feras Moussa: One day we'll do an ADL but not in, but not-- but it's about matching it to the right equity pool. Right. If we have equity that's okay with the lesser returns. Right. We can go do a B plus or a minus. But so far, we've been kind of in the C plus B minus space.   Ben Suttles: Yes. Yes.   James: Got It. Got It. So, what about that, that strategy? Do you guys do only agency Loan, Bridge, Bridge through an agency?   Ben Suttles: I think we're doing all this. It's really deals dependent. Right. Do you know what I mean? I think the bridge has gotten a little bit of a bad rap. I mean there's, there obviously you have to be careful with it, right? You have to understand that your exit strategy, you have to be able to hit those targets in terms of, especially if it's a value add, tell him the hair on it, which is, it's going to with a bridge, right? You got to be able to hit those timetables in terms of your construction, your rehab in order to refi out of it quickly. And then at the best price point that you can write, because obviously, you don't want to have to bring money to the table. So, we'll do a little bit of the bridge, but for the most part, where everyone, just like every other smart operator, you're looking for agency debt when you can. But at the end of the day, we're looking to maximize returns for our investors. And so sometimes, going bridge versus agency has been a better way in order to do that. And people understand that there's a little bit higher of risk tolerance with those. But we always get a three-year term with two years' extension. So, at the end of the day, it's still five years on a bridge that, it's not something like an 18-month deal. So, I think that that gives people a little bit of, they feel a little bit better about it as well. But we've done agency all the way up to 12 years too. So, it's a little bit about, just depends on the deal.   Feras Moussa: Yes. For anyone listening, I mean I think we have a Ph.D. in the agency space. Unfortunately, we've had issues that people that do 50 deals never hit. So, we've seen it all. And so, if anyone has any questions, feel free to reach out. But we've seen the good, the bad and the ugly on the dead space. So, it's, you kind of, you work through those problems, right? If you get the closing, which is the good news, but then you kind of learn from it and you know, start to figure out what are the things that could be learned from this to basically avoid the situation in the future. Right. We've had, we've really seen a variety of things. Unfortunately--   James: Oh, let's talk about--   Feras Moussa: --that's where Ben lost all this hair.   Ben Suttles: Just one. Just one lender, which I'll tell if you want to email me, I'll tell you which linear it was.   James: Okay, tell me the worst story with an agency, just let's just go--   Feras Moussa: The worst agency story. I'll tell you one, and this is one near and to you James. So, it's in San Antonio.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: San Antonio deal its a, a deal that pencils in really well. And for those of you that know on the agency side, right? With a standing loan, you can do what's called fully delegated, which means that fanny lets the dust lender, which in our case could be Arbor, could be haunted, it can be any variety of them. For us, it was an Arbor deal and lets them operate in the wrong capacity, right. To some degree. And so, there's kind of a box. As long as they're within the box, Arbor could approve the deal, no questions asked. Well yes, we're like three weeks from closing pretty much at the finish line. Money's in the bank. Well, we're already looking at the next field that we had to go on and then kind of going back, what happened was that because it's the San Antonio deal and the deal pencils in really, really well, right from a financial perspective, the lender said, well hey, we can go get your five years IO. And we didn't think much of it. Right. It was like, okay, that's fine. Well, at least we'll back out to where we are today because we run the road at one-year IO. Well, long story short, this deal essentially used to be on a watch list three years ago. The sellers are only deal in San Antonio. They struggled with it. Plus, it was kind of whenever they're in the midst of a lot of rehabs. So, he got on the watch list, it wasn't on the watch list the past few years. And that whole you, that market better than we do James. And that whole area has really turned around from where it was three years ago. But guess what, it was already flagged by Fannie and they just wanted to essentially get it off their books. Right. And so, this is something very, I actually did this just the other day where I, I was talking to a broker about a deal and asked him was the saber on a watch list.   Feras Moussa: That's something I've learned to ask now because and what sucks about it is that once a lender, a dus lender, this gets Arbor went to fanny, right? Once Fannie times in, Fannie is the authority, right?   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: Versus if we would have just not ever done that, we could have closed the deal agency with Arbor, no questions asked. And so, it's a very unique situation. I don't know anyone that's actually ever encountered that. Right. But these kinds of things do happen. And so just knowing that they can happen, figure on how much risk you want to take because we would have been happy with what we had-- what we could have closed. Right. We were happy with the one-year IO. That was great. That was fine. But it's your kind of get a little bit more than that and then now completely bag of worms. So.   James: Yes, I learn, even I learned about this watch list, last week when was looking at another dealer then someone says, Oh, I backed out because of watch list, I say what is that? Right? Then we realize there are so many other issues with the deal. Right? So that's crazy. Yes. I mean for listeners, just FYI most dus lenders, they have one-year authority on a delegated underwriting. So within, if they give one-year IO, they don't have to go back to Fannie Mae and get approval. But once they go above that they have to go to Fannie Mae. And a lot of things can change when you go to Fannie Mae.   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, I have learned that there are different tiers. Right? So, there's the tier two, tier three. So, if you're at higher leverage that can only give you one. But if you're willing to go down to 65% they can actually approve 5 years IO, no questions.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: So, you start to learn. And again, why did I learn that from a different deal? So, start to understand really the mechanics of what's going on behind the scene. And this is where having the right mortgage broker makes all the difference, right? They can help steer you in the right direction and help catch some of these. So, I mean for the-- for the watch list, the sellers were actually more pissed that we were about the whole, they didn't think that was going to be an issue in terms of us getting the next one. Right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: And they never thought to just close it. You don't think it's going to be an issue.   Ben Suttles: No, they thought it was off too.   Feras Moussa: Yes.   Ben Suttles: But, do you know what I mean? I think there's that just like, like our earlier part of the conversation. Right. You know, we're project managing these things, things are going to pop up. So, we were able to make it through that process--   James: Right.   Ben Suttles: --and still come out on top in terms of the debt. But yes, I mean we're always looking to maximize returns and risk and minimize risk for our investors. And I think that having this different background and different debt products and having a good experience with some of these different lenders really gives us a good broad overview of the debt market and which deals are going to make sense where, and I think that that's huge when you're looking at who to invest your money with, because know some people, let's be honest. So, they'll just go straight to Fannie, if it's not Fannie or if it's not Fannie then I'm not doing it. Right.   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: But I think sometimes you're missing out on opportunities there as well.   James: So, wasn't, like three weeks before closing, didn't you guys had a rate lock at that time?   Feras Moussa: No, we're supposed to [inaudible 40:01] lock a few days later.   James: Oh okay.   Feras Moussa: Like little, they're just waiting on the final. Oh, because they went to Fannie, Fannie kind of asked-- this is where really, I think we could have-- it's about positioning the story. Right. Again, I think the lender just went in thinking that it's going to be easy down the middle because really that's what they told us. Right?   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: They didn't even bother. We had a great story for the deal, for the sponsorship team. They tried to do it retroactively and kind of wants Fannie comes in it's really hard to change. But we were literally at the point of rate locking and getting, being done with the steel. Like we will do, so.   James: Yes. [crosstalk 40:36].   Feras Moussa: You do full 360 and charge full 180 and change things and kind of Redo. So, in my mind, it was really, we did, it took us to close if get that deal done.   James: Yes, it's, yes, it's, it's a day just to do it at the end because you're almost at the closing table. Right. So,   Ben Suttles: Yes.   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, so in that situation, just maybe to complete the story, right. The seller realized kind of what happened. They gave us more time, right? They gave us another 30 days they knew that wasn't really for lack of use or lack of anything that we did. And so, we're able to buy more time and then redo the process and kind of, get to where we needed to be.   James: So, did you do a different loan?   Feras Moussa: Yes. So that one we call back every investor because I mean we basically what we did Arbor realized the mistake that they made, which was they should not have gone to the lender, tell Fannie, they should have just closed. And so, they basically gave us a balance sheet loan, right? Which is like a bridge loan on their books that essentially, the short term just to get it off of Fannie's book, --   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: --then in nine months. Right. So, for us, we kind of turned it into a value add reprice scenario. Right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: And so, when that case, we will, nine months, 12 months, somewhere around there. Right. We're also pushing our NOI as hard as you can. We'll refi, pull equity out and get back into a panty permanent loan.   James: Got it.   Feras Moussa: And so, but the deal changed, right? And so, we had to call every investor, tell every investor here's what changed, here's what happened. Then thankfully pretty much everyone stayed in the deal. Right? So that kind of-- for us that it's a sigh of relief. But also, it's like, everyone just doubled down on us. Right? So, we're--   James: Right.   Ben Suttles: --going to get babysat through the finish line.   James: Yes, the amount of pressure for you to go, on the contact to rate lock it so much. Right. So, I mean, I don't know, I mean-- there's a lot of pressure on, responsibility. You have so much money tied, and you are under the gun and you have all your reputation out there. You are doing the deal, investors are looking at you, you are to be a leader. You have very strong leaders. So.   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: Yes, it's a lot of work.   Feras Moussa: Absolutely.   James: So, kind of back to value add, right? So, you guys do value add strategy. So, what's your, what do you think is the most valuable value add?   Ben Suttles: I think, ultimately, what tenants care most about, right? I mean, whenever you're doing value add, unfortunately, you have to cure a lot of [inaudible 42:52]. You have to do a lot of things that you not going to get the best return on your investment on. But the two things that tenants care about, first being their interiors. So, what was actually in my unit, the second thing that they care about is amenities, right. Probably a distance second. Most of the time with the workforce housing, they're caring about what their units look like. And I think that's where you're going to get the best return on your investment when you're doing value add. And then you can obviously update and add on amenities as a secondary thing to that. But unfortunately, with those value adds, you got to do things like roofs and HVAC replacement and other things that just people just say, hey if I'm renting from you, I expect that to be working. So, you know, but you might be spending a hundred or two hundred grand on some of this stuff, right? So, your return on investment is almost nothing, but you have to do it. So, you've got to balance those two things, right? You've got to work in curing that deferred maintenance along with how do I push the NOI and the revenue side by, really updating the property for the way that the tenants are looking at it. So, I mean that's kind of how we look at every value-add play that we do. A combination of those two things.   Feras Moussa: So, James, is your question really specific about ROI? Like what are the things that we putting kind of deferred maintenance aside, what other things would we do to really try to maximize our return?   James: Yes, other than deferred maintenance, like the roof and all the big stuff [crosstalk 44:21].   Feras Moussa: Yes, so I mean it's, its properties specific, right? It's really depending on the asset, what it looks like currently and what is the market doing right now? That said from our experience, right? The most common thing, flooring, two-tone paint, right? And pimping out the kitchen some degree. Right? And you can go as crazy as replacing all the cabinets or you really replacing the front or even just putting fixtures, right? Like for us, fixtures are definitely cheap. Easy to do. It gives a different, pop to the thing, right? Flooring almost always, painted and really two-tone paint. It's important. And the other thing too that we like to do is really putting a backsplash. You can do backsplashes with this kind of stick on backsplash, really, really cheap to do per unit. And it gives the kitchen, which is usually known the seventies, eighties build kitchen, a bit of Pop, right? It gives it something to modernize it. Right? We didn't go as far as putting granted in. Right. But you are putting that in kind of coupled with a resurfacing. It actually looks pretty good. And then, the obvious is white and black appliances. Right?   James: So, let's say--   Feras Moussa: And that's all, white, black or aluminium.   James: Let's say how the interiors, right. So, let's say you guys lost for some reason you thought you had 100% of your interior budget, but now you need like 50% of the budget. What would you focus on, on the interior?   Ben Suttles: Yes, if the property needed any flooring or paint. Right? [crosstalk 45:38] Those are important things to think.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Yes, I mean, you got appliances too right, but I mean appliances, you're going to be two x in your interior budgeted, just adding those in. But a lot of people they take, there's a price difference between white and black appliances are really not, but there's a perception that they're a little bit higher quality. So, you can even do that too. Right? You got to replace the appliances, but you don't have a whole big budget for that. You can just go from white to black to and I think that adds a nice pop too.   James: Yes, that's a really good point. I mean I realize a lot of times if you give them even white, really nice appliances, people are happy. Right?   Ben Suttles: No. Yes, you can do, right. It's-- I mean, but like, you'll see people like, they're just ecstatic that they've got black appliances. Right now, the market is about the same in terms of pricing.   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: So, but it's just a perception thing or just, like I said, backslash 150 bucks.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: [crosstalk 46:38].   Feras Moussa: Let me turn the question around to you, James. Would you, the same question to you, right, would you do the same thing, or would you do something else?   James: So, we, so for me, I think my most valuable value add would be just giving them good management, right? So, there are so many bad operators out there, which is mismanaging not respecting the tenants, not taking care of it. So, we just want to make sure, really good management that's on the management side. But if you go back to the interiors, I would say, of course, we do the appliances and we do the painting and flooring. That's what we would, I would say the most, so, but I think, a lot of people just love having good management people who take care of them. Everything--   Ben Suttles: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they want to feel comfortable and who miss their right. People that understand what's going on. I mean, that's to me, and that's why for all of our properties, we're big people, putting, doing parties, doing tenant events, pretending retention vents. Because from the operations side, right. This is, you have the backdoor and you have the front door, right? You don't have people renewing, right. You're going to have delinquency problems, not a delinquency problem, you're going to have an oxygen problem, right? And so really keeping people happy, renewing, right. Well, then it makes it easier on the front end to start the push friends, right? Because you have people that are enjoy working there, living there. Right. You know, for another 10, $20. Sure enough, it's more than the cost of moving. Right. And so that's absolutely.   James: Yes. I think at the end of the day the tenants just want to be felt appreciated. That you just-- so many properties out there. You don't have to be being mismanaged.   Ben Suttles: Yes, clean, quality, safe housing, man. I mean, it seems so easy and the way that I describe it, but so many operators, I've just run some of these properties in the ground and they don't take care of it. Right? And so, the tenants, therefore, don't consider home and they don't take care of it. So when you get a good operator, I know you get a good management company in there and they showed that they're taking care of the property, then by default you're going to get more loyal 10 tenants, you're going to have people that are going to be more apt to take a renewal increase, cause they like, they like coming home again. Right? It's home.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Versus just a place just to sleep.   James: Yes. Yes. I think one of the episodes, maybe episode five or six, I interviewed, Addie Lauren from California strategic alliance and he had been doing this for 30 years, more than 1 billion in a transaction. And he told me very simple, clean, basic and functional quality is what his motto is that's it. Right?   Ben Suttles: You don't have to get; you don't have to be creative about it. Right. I mean, you know, the space that we plan is essentially workforce housing. I mean, across our whole entire portfolio, our average rents are less than a thousand bucks, right. So, folks aren't looking for crazy amenities and crazy things even in their interiors. They just want a good quality place to come home to and then, and the management side is a big piece of that too.   James: Correct, correct, correct.   Ben Suttles: Yes, she bought up a good point.   Feras Moussa: And then another thing too with good management, right. You get lower delinquency. So, for us, I mean that's night and day. We had a deal that we, one of our heavy value add deals where essentially where we were, I went back and looked at numbers July versus where we are today. We have three times more revenue collected than we will, we did before total, like literally straight revenue you and that's a combination of, cutting back the delinquency, bringing units, align, updating. But I mean, it’s, once people know that it's, someone taking care of the property and enjoying it, people want to stay there. All right. People are eating $200 rep push because guess what, this place has been completely turned around. It's more family oriented and even just bringing more families on board helps to come back for delinquency. So, for us really looking at how do you build that community and some people really cheap about it, but like, hosting these parties is you, I mean, do the math, right? How much does it cost to go get a hundred hot dog and a hundred burgers? Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: I mean it's very, very cheap, right? To be there and grill it out, have like a little patio, you know, a party, whatever it is. These things are almost, you know, half of the units rented a month, right. It's kind of thing. And so, they're almost rounding errors, errors where we are, but guess what? It changes the dynamics in the property. And so, I mean, some people don't really-- people are very short-sighted. I see. And really it has a much bigger kind of longer-term impact.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: And I think going along with the value add, right? I mean, you know, a lot of what we're doing is repositioning the property too, which is kind of where you're going with this James. Is bringing in better management. You're getting a better tenant profile at the same time too. So that's part of the value-add strategy as well, so once you, and once you show them that you care, you've got tenants in there that care than the properties just starts performing. There's a whole-- the energy shifts are palpable. Do you know what I mean? You go from a bad energy deal to a very good energy deal and you have less delinquency. Yes. Better occupancy people more apt to take a renewal increase and you can, you can rent that out more easily because people that prospective tenants that are walking around fuel that same thing too. So that's a huge part of what we do. We don't like to focus the value add just on the what the aesthetic of the property to, it's how you manage it and tenants that you have in there as well. A huge part of it.   James: So, you guys operators, which is the definition. What I mean is very active asset management because you know the details of what's happening on the side by side. Right. So, is that a correct assumption? Right? So.   Ben Suttles: Absolutely.   Feras Moussa: Yes, absolutely.   James: How do you guys manage this third-party property management companies?   Feras Moussa: Man, that's, that's part of the secret sauce. But I mean, it's really is nothing to it. There's nothing secret about it. So, we have an asset manager now that we've brought in who very experienced, 20 plus years if families a property, he manages family really. And so that's starting to help, but we plan to keep a pulse in general on what's going on in every deal. And so, for us, it's really about putting systems in place with each of your property managers, right? And having accountability. Right? And so, we have not brought in property management in house, but we've been successful with managing our property managers. Right? Yes. And it's a partnership, right? It's not like they're your employee. You really need to get on the level of like where they understand like, hey, we're partnering, we're growing together. Right? And so, they've seen that, and you know, yes. Identify the good property managers from the batch. So, there's a whole betting cycle. I don't want to get too far into, but really, we have the weekly calls, we have the weekly reports come in at a certain time. We have certain expectations that within a few days we expect them to follow up with hearing all the action items and did these all get done? Yes or no? Why not? Right? And how do we, I can keep them accountable, so.   Ben Suttles: Yes, it's all about obviously keep it to an agenda, keep into the processes that we put in place to templates and checklists. And we're very upfront when we get into a partnership with these property management companies that this is what we expect, that this is when we expect it. Right. And then we, like we said, we keep them accountable through--   Feras Moussa: And this is the format that we expect, that these are the numbers that we need and sent out.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Just to help us track everything the way we want. And then you learn from it. Right. We're not perfect. It's not, it's an iterative process, right. Anytime we identify something that we can improve from one property manager, we applied to the portfolio. The nice thing is really is that having different property managers, we see the strengths and weaknesses of each property manager and you figure out how do we make them all better and so what things can we do across the board to make everything better?   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: So, can you name like three things that you guys always look out for in the property management performance? When you realize that someone of these three things is not going well, things are not going right.   Feras Moussa: Oh Man. I would say renewals is the lowest hanging fruit. Look and understand what's going on in renewals and how important it is because early renewals are indicative of a lot of other things. Are they following up with tenants for the renewal? Right. Did they really? That's just a-- that's the number that you can kind of look at and realize that there must be other problems going on. I would say that's my answer. I don't know about you, Ben.   Ben Suttles: No, I think, yes, I think you're right, man. Totally. Yes. I think my biggest, my biggest hanging out in delinquency because it's like that's the properties money. Like you know, go out there, how are you going to collect the rent that is owed? And so, when you start seeing that slipping and we're increasing, that's my big red flag that hey, there's something going on here, right? As our management on site, not, not doing their job, or are we getting bad tenants in there that aren't capable of paying the rent that we're asking of them may be what's the, there's a, there's usually a bigger problem going on, but yes, I mean all of these, these metrics we expect on our Monday morning report. And so, we're looking at each of these things weekly and we're also having follow-up calls throughout the week to either our asset management or asset manager or us or having calls with the property manager to track these things. So, it's not like a weekly thing. And that we don't have any kind of insight into what's happening for the rest of the week. If there's a challenge, we're having a follow-up call that week about it as well.   James: Okay. So, do you convert like renewal to percentage and look at, give that as a goal, that what you guys delinquency at two percentage and give that as a goal?   Feras Moussa: It's a balancing act depending on how hard you're pushing. Right? So, it's not like you can just say, hey, we expect 50% renewals across the board. I think it's really, it's deal specific and I mean we're looking at renewals, we're looking at least as we're looking at delinquency, right? We're looking at how much traffic came in versus how much leases got closed and then going in and really both on leases, we didn't close. What's the story? What's the story? What's the story? Sometimes there are cases where you, maybe you, no, you can go save that, that person. Similarly, on the delinquency, we go through what's this person's story? Are they going to pay? Cause really in Atlanta, our delinquency is higher than it isn't and Texas, right? It's just by nature of the market. And so, you, you kind of need to be more flexible in one market versus the other. And so really go through and understand what's the story behind me. Just like whenever we, you asked me earlier about the properties, how we analyse it, you're looking for that story. And so, we talked through each one of these and figure out what makes sense to kind of do moving forward. Because to us, it is very different between different properties.   Ben Suttles: Yes, and I, I would say targeted for delinquency, right? It's always zero. And do you know what I mean? So, the property management companies will say, oh yes, we got zero across our whole portfolio, I'm like, yes right. Do you know what I mean? Not, not the workforce housing stuff. So, you got to be realistic. But I would say your target, there's probably one to 2%, you know, on a stabilized property if you're dealing in the workforce housing space that we are and so that's usually the metric that we're pushing towards. But on the renewal side too. One thing I want to point out, right? When you're doing a heavy value add and you've got a lot of interior budget to kind of burn through and you have units that you need to update too, right? You're not going to be chasing after those folks as aggressively as you would on a stabilized property because maybe you don't have a lot of down units are a lot of vacancies and you need to free up, you know, units actually update them, right? So, you're not going to be as aggressive in renewing those folks. So, we've been able to connect like Feras says, right? I mean, you don't want to, you're not going to burn that bridge completely. So, you're constantly looking at occupancy, versus how much, how many units are we supposed to be turning a month in order to hit that target of, 60, 70, 80 units a year. Right. Because people have, people aren't moving out. What are we going to do? We can't sit on the money and there's usually a finite amount of time that we can, we can actually use that cash. So.   Feras Moussa: To expand on Ben's point too. It's almost like, we have a deal where we almost went the opposite. We don't want renewal. And what I mean by that is that one of our deals in Atlanta, we've pushed rents an insane amount on this deal. Like we're probably up 30% honestly, you know, 30 40% and we still have 98% occupants are choke when they're property managers at one day on the call, it felt to 97 and a half. And then, we called her out on it like, Oh, you're at 97 and a half, you're not a 98% anymore. And she's like, no, no, I just had someone who fucking renewed. She's back at 98, but in that deal, we have interior budgets that we need to go spend. We were literally just sitting on the side-lines. Right. Trying to, so you were kind of that balancing act is because we knew what was below market. Right. And figure out, where can we land on to where we have some people not renewing and we can go in and actually spend the money to even get, you know, that better push.   James: Yes. I think you need to look for where is the base rank, where's the base rank before you really go and spend all that rehab money. Otherwise, you can't be spending, spending, spending.   Ben Suttles: Exactly.   James: You don't know where's your base. Where is your starting point? Right. So, yes, I've had properties where we didn't even spend, we have the money yet, but we already bumped up just because people like it just because we are just a better operator than the previous guy. Right. So, --   Ben Suttles: And you'll get that. Right. Do you know what I mean? You'll just, you're amazed that how much they'll take it on renewal too. And that's great. You know, I mean, I just think it's a balancing act sometimes, but yeah, you have that, you have to kind of see where the market is and, and obviously be strategic with those dollars as well.   James: Yes, correct. Correct. That's right. So, can you give us some advice on how do you choose third-party property management? Because you guys are going in multiple markets, right? How would you give them expectations? Because a lot of, I'm sure a lot of property management company don't like, active asset managers. I couldn't control, [inaudible 59:57] I guess.   Ben Suttles: Well, hey now. [crosstalk 01:00:01].   Feras Moussa: Ben. I think, yes, I think.   James: [inaudible 01:00:04].   Feras Moussa: Well I will say though all of our property managers literally, you ask them, they say we're one of their favourites.   James: Oh okay.   Feras Moussa: So, let's not because we're active or inactive. [crosstalk 01:00:15]. Well, it's, we're doing maybe some of it, but it's more so that we're realistic. Right. I think what I was surprised to hear from them as a lot of people will just sell their property may, here's your budget, here's what you have to go, you know, accomplish. And sometimes it's not realistic. Right. I said before any of your deals because we've already worked on a budget with a property manager, we have an agreement on what that looks like, what the plan is, and we're not just picking numbers out of a hat just to make our deal work. Right. And really kind of do it the other way around. And then, yes, whenever issues come up, we're both, I mean, I hope people on the audience, I get this impression. Ben and I are pretty level headed, pretty easy to work with. And so, they understand things happen. And so, the property management companies, at least they enjoy because we're easy to get a hold of. We understand what's going on the deal. And we're realistic. And so, because I've asked them and pretty much all of them have said that we're one of, we're one of their favourites. Right. And so, --   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Now, that said, maybe to answer your question, Ben, do you want to answer? Do you want me to answer?   Ben Suttles: I mean, I, I think, I mean, you've got to be stern, but at the same time, you can have a friendly relationship with them at the same time. Right. But I think it's all about setting the right expectations and just betting them in general. I think it's, it's all you usually start off with referrals. Right?   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: But I think some of the big things are as, go take a look at some of their properties too. Go secret shop those deals, so you're going to say, okay, hey you, you're a good referral on whatever market. Right. Give me three of the assets that you, and then you fly out there and you go shopping. What does the property look like? Is it clean? Is the management, is the leasing agent and the manager, are they friendly, are they knowledgeable of the property? Are they good or are they leasing it properly? All of these things go back to the property management side and, and as long as that's, that's kind of coalesces with what you've heard about them and everything. That is good. Obviously, the fee has to be online and those roles have, the references have to be there. But I think the biggest, the biggest asset test for us is, vetting the deals that they currently have, and do we like what we see, and they call them out, right? I mean, if they don't, if there's a deficiency saying, hey we went to Xyz property and there's trash on the ground, what's the deal with that and then how do they respond to that? Because that's going to be, -- there are always challenges, but it’s how you respond to those challenges is what I'm looking for on the property management side.   James: Yeah.   Feras Moussa: And then a couple of things too, just to add, I mean it's about what's kind of, what's the impression and feeling you're getting from them? Right. And, and working on a budget with a property management company is actually a great exercise to understand how they look at things and how are they going to meet what you're looking for. And I mean that in multiple, always, right? A, are they, -- is their budget realistic? Right. And B, is there pushback? I mean we actually like when they push back, right? If we say, well we think we can run payroll at x amount and they're like, well no, payroll is going to be this amount. Here are the 10 properties we have nearby to prove it. Right? That's good. Versus we've had property managers that are essential yes people, right? That'll say yes to everything and that's not at all what you want because we need something realistic. We're not trying to, we have millions of dollars at stake, we have other people's money. We're not here to just take a gamble. So, looking at that and kind of what we've found success in is really the people that are in that five to 15,000-unit range, right? The 40,000 guys in too much, they don't care about you. The guys that are smaller, there's just a lot of them. You know this first-hand. There's a lot of back offices that need to happen for a successful property management company. Right. And so, we found that sweet spot seems to be that five to 15 and then to where there our portfolio is enough volume for them, right? That we kind of get that professional preferential treatment where needed and at the same time, right, they're developed enough to be able to, kind of take on and succeed with it.   James: Got It. Got It. Very interesting, very interesting. So, let me ask some question about more the personal side, right? So maybe each one of you can add in on your own site. So, what's, what do you think is the top three things that are the secret sauce, for the success that you guys have been having in terms of closing deals?   Ben Suttles: All right. Go for it man.   Feras Moussa: Partnerships and relationships, right? Most important, first and foremost, right? Being willing to partner with brokers, property managers, other partners, partners, right? On the GP. People that can help us, would the deal, right? Whether it's helping with construction, hel

I help talented coaches attract premium clients at premium prices, so they can quickly and reliably build a 6-figure business doing what they love. Visit https://www.WilliamWinterton.com to see my exact process! Today I had the AMAZING honor and privilege of talking with Steve Larsen. For two years, Steve was the Lead Funnel Builder at ClickFunnels for Russell Brunson, and put over 500 sales funnels under his belt (but honestly, lost track a while ago). Eventually, he left ClickFunnels as an employee to get his own 2 Comma Club Award and his business crossed $1 million 13 months later. His podcast, Sales Funnel Radio, was created to share best practices, teach the finer points of marketing and “funnelology”. In today’s conversation, Steve shares a little of his backstory and how he eventually (by default) became the lead coach/trainer at a multi-million dollar company. He then goes into detail about how to create an offer that is PROVEN to attract clients. It’s a strategy that he has used with hundreds of clients, time and time again and he lays it out so cleanly, the AH-HA moments start exploding one after another after another! If you want to learn more about Stephen (including why he’s wearing that tee-shirt) check out this link: https://www.stevejlarsen.com Connect with WilliamFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/william.winterton.7LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-winterton/TRANSCRIPT: William Winterton Alright, I'm here on Coaching Success Radio. And I'm super stoked, because today I've got Steve Larson on, and I get a big show at the beginning here to kind of explain who he is. I would love to hear from you, man, who is Stephen Larsen, Stephen Larsen Someone who is still developing himself. (laughs) No… it's been fun. I first started out I was kind of an entrepreneur by not by choice, you know what I mean? I don't think many people, many kids grew up thinking like, you know, when I grow up, I'm going to be an entrepreneur, like it's just not a normal thing. But turns out, it's incredibly fun. And something that I was kind of thrown into when I found out I couldn't feed my lady, right, I can feed my new brain and stuff kind of hit the fan. And it was really rough for a long time. And I went through I recounted recently. It was my first 17 tries, didn't really work very well. And I went from everything from like, selling stocks and options, the real estate and diamonds and ebooks and daughter of sales. And I mean, I did a lot of stuff. And then I found out this thing called funnels, right, this funnel world was amazing. And it was about try number 17. And it was another 16 or 17 they weren't all failures, but it was like none of them were like the screaming successes, you know, it wasn't for another 16 or 17 to one was like, Whoa, holy cow, you know. So anyway, I've left my job as a ClickFunnels funnel builder and been doing on my own. And it's been awesome. William Winterton I think people anybody who's not aware, Sales Funnel Radio is a phenomenal resource. And it's just, you're basically telling your life through this podcast, right? Stephen LarsenYeah. William WintertonDocumenting your journey. So what I'd love to get into- because of a lot of our audience, we're talking to coaches, people who are just starting out in the coaching world, or people who are coaches and trying to figure out how this game works and how to actually make money in this. You'd kind of became a coach and that really wasn't your intention… I don't think in the beginning, but you somehow got handed this thing I think by Russell, probably, like, I need you to coach, all these people. And you had no idea the magnitude that's going to get to. Talk us through that story a little bit. Stephen Larsen But yeah, totally. So it actually was I've only been working for Russell for about almost two years. And it was probably six months in, we were at his old office, and we're sitting there and, you know, we sat literally back to back almost can see his face in the reflection of my monitors, you know, which freaked me out for a while I was like, Dude, don't say anything stupid. This is amazing, you know. And after a little while, though, he was on with his inner circle, he gets off, and he muted and he turned his camera off that is kind of like, here's a full day coaching and relax for a second I go, dude,, you're saying the same thing, basically, to every single person. And he was like, I was like, kind of funny to get is kind of funny. And he's like everything from a supplement to a makeup business to it's like crazy. E-com to info business to retail to it was like, I was like you're saying the same thing? And I was like, What if we created something between you and then so that you can take them from, you know, here and up instead of all the way from the ground all the way up. So what I did is I started going through like 12 years of his content and took me six months to organize it. And I said from this minute and second to this minute. Second, you're talking about this. But really, you should know these things before you know that and it was like this huge trail and it took a long time. And anyway, I begged to be we put into this members area, we made an event around it. And I begged to be the guy to go on stage and Russell couldn't. And they're like, oh, okay, we'll see. I don't know, but like, I wanted it real bad. And I begged and I, you know, played the game how I needed to and made sure I like getting my myself in there. And I had to be the guy to teach when Russell can get on stage. And that's when Steve was born. Right? That's when Steve Larson was born, I started finding my voice. And we all thought that I was going to be teaching and like, we thought I'd be teaching marketing. I was not planning on being a coach, I had no interest in being a coach. Nothing against it. It's just I was like, I'm really into funnels, you know, and I go and I'm standing on the stage and I start realizing that I'm teaching these models that work. But once they understand it, the real work begins because now they're going to start working to execute the model. That's where they need the coaching. And we all thought I'd be doing this like marketing stuff. And it wasn't I ended up helping them get through their own garbage. So they can even execute the model in the first place. And then, later on, it was the One Funnel Away challenge and Russell's like, dude, your DNA is built for this, you yell at people without them knowing you're yelling at them. And I was like, well, then one foot away started. And that's kind of how it happened. And that's the biggest thing I've realized as coaches. It's, it's, I mean, yes, we teach him like these cash models, but that's not why they fail. doesn't work for me. Yeah, but that's not why it's not gonna work for you. It's not gonna work for you. Because, you know, like, you haven't worked through enough of your garbage, Steven, execute that model. That's kind of what happened. William Winterton Yeah, so no, like, it's totally a very unconventional approach. Because a lot of people that I'm talking with I work with, they go through and have a ton of training, they learn to become a life coach or health coach or fitness coach, and they go through the halls coaching training. At the end of the day, your main goal is to get somebody from here to here, and you're just you've got a kind of a very unconventional approach to that in terms of like, Look, you know, I'm not taking it I've actually enjoyed listening to kind of you don't you don't take anybody's crap, like, yell at people very nicely, but like, I'm not dealing with it. So it's, it's a thing where you're now it kind of leads me to like the authority of offer creation. That's kind of where you've landed, man, you got to be the coach. Right? You still coaching though, but your main, kind of where you're, your sleepless landings at offer creation? talk about that a little bit? I know, that's kind of where your passion is. So Stephen Larsen Yeah, you know, everything, everything. can't sell anything without an offer. Right? So how do you craft that without, so it can be attractive and something that people get psyched about when they see it. And there's a lot that goes into that is, the better people can understand. This is true for coaches as well, you know, the better you can understand behavioral psychology, like why we make the decisions we do, the better coach you'll be. And the better marketer you actually end up being that actually, coaches and marketers are very similar with skill sets, in my opinion. So what's interesting is, like, as I go to these offer creation methods. I mean, they've worked for hundreds and thousands of people and so many people made a million dollars off the moon so so like, Man, I'm not gonna lie. Like the reason, I started yelling was out of pure frustration after a while. It wasn't like a stick. It was, and I'm getting a little impatient with this person who keeps asking, but will it work it for me and I have responded for 15 minutes, say, Yes, just do it. But I'm in a unique scenario, what? You found a way to negate 100,000-year-old brain like you have one to it works also. And so I started coming up with these rules for coaching. Right, like, I will put in as much as you put in, I will, and a lot of it came from Sean Stephenson actually. I was listening to him at the first phone hacking lab I went to and he was teaching the Coast Guard mantra. And he's like, you're right. And I know you I'm sure you've heard it right there. They go out and helicopter and there's a ship sinking and as more bodies in the water than his room and helicopter gut-wrenching decisions, who do you save, and he's like, you save those as swimming towards you. Right. And for a long time, I felt responsible for every single person that was coming in. And when I heard that, I was like, oh, man, I gotta stop. And so putting the ball back in their court. Look, here's your host. I'm teaching you how to make the money that way. But be prepared, because you're gonna have a lot of obstacles, you know, was a Robert Kiyosaki. And he's like, the moment you start down any journey, you're going to have these character flaws explode in your face, and you got to address them before we can move on. So it's funny because I love teaching the offer creation. But when I do, I mean only keeps in a few of the models right now. But it's just because I teach him and then I observe the behavior of the individual. And you go back and like Oh, man. Anyway, I love offer creation. It's amazing. It's the core and the heart of why we market but I've really, can you William Winterton Would you mind? I'm going to jump in here real quick. Can you Would you mind kind of walking us through offer creation of a very amazing term… it's very broad, somebody who doesn't understand it fully. We talked about having to build your offer, we talked about having to have your ideal client stuff, can you give us kind of a little snippet of a, you know, like Steve Larsen genius in that. Stephen Larsen Hopefully his genius Oh, man. Let me get some paper here. So we have to understand is like, so many times people… I feel like the way people made offers even five years ago was they would just start bundling stuff. And they'd be like, well, let's put this product in this product and this product and this product… and a lot of people would start assembling these offers, were the products inside the offer was just tons of stuff, right? It just stuff stuff, stuff, stuff. And a lot of it wasn't even related. So what I do, that's made it so unique is it's a combination of so marketing is just changing people's beliefs. So that they go buy something, right? That they're already in motion to buy. That's all marketing is. It's not logos and slogans, it's not cute little as nothing that business cards, I hate business cards. It's just, it's just changing beliefs with the intent of a sale. So what's interesting about my offer creation method is that it kind of incorporates that, and addresses the product of the same time. Anyway, so what I do, first of all, is I imagine my, my customer, and I'm like, let's think about this customer here, this customer, they're already momentum towards something, and they're already feeling pain. A lot of old-school copywriting courses would teach things like, you need to go and talk about the issues that your customer has, that they don't know they have so that you can then bring your solution. And there's some truth to that. But they already have problems though. And I want to sell somebody who is consciously aware of the problem that they have so that I don't have to create it, it actually kills half of the work that was taught like in the previous 10 years around copywriting, it shortcuts it like crazy, you don't need to do that. Just go and figure out. So my dream customer is somebody who is already a few things, they're already in pain, and they're conscious of that pain. They're already spending money that has been one of the most powerful criteria is ever, they're already aware of other solutions that are out there. And they've actually tried them. So huge. They already are consciously seeking another option. Right. And these are like, this is like a lot of things that I go and I think through before I even think about an offer, like sales message, offer funnel that comes like step 99. To be honest, what I do first is get ridiculous clarity on the who. And once I know the who this parts really fun and it's really at the foundation of how I create the offer. Every single customer that's out there has all these best problems, right? Or things they need solving. All I'm going to do is I'm going to start listing out problems. Now it's a gift. You know, like when you go to like, I say get Click Funnels. Okay, how many things did you have to solve in order to actually use Click Funnels? Right, like, I gotta learn how to write copy, right? I had to do that, you know, I remember the froze like, man, I can make a sales video, what kind of camera you know, or I gotta do this so that all these problems start popping up in order for you to actually have success. Right? And every single solution that you sell, somebody actually causes more problems. And that's, it's crazy to realize that and it's actually a gift to entrepreneurs. So all I do is I think through all these problems that this customer currently has and what they're wanting, and then I rank the problems is actually I do it. I called this called the core problem planner. That's what I call me. And, and I'm like, Oh, you know what, because not all problems pay me the same, I could solve the problem how to put groceries into a bag at the end of the checkout line. But that's not a very valuable problem to solve. Right? Right, I'm going to solve a problem that's a combination of super valuable for them, but also expensive and valuable for me so that I can get paid a lot. So engineering, this offer to create a lot of cash before, like before even think about the offer is I want to know at the heart of what I'm solving it's reason click falls can charge what they do. They solve an issue that is highly valuable. That and legitimately for both sides. And so at the beginning, before even think about a solution, I just want to know what problem I'm going to dedicate my entire business to solve. That is how I figured out the foundation of my offer. Now all I do is think about my one solutions, one solution that I call the core solution, one core solution. And this is this part super fun and easy as well. So I think about one core solution. And then I start thinking about like, well, what are the follow-up problems that that solution creates, such as Click Funnels crap, now I needed to figure out what a sales letter is. Right? Then all I do is I think through little tiny mini solutions for all the following problems I can think of. And that becomes my offer, that becomes the stack slide as we call it. And that's it. And now it's coming and problem derives rather than what should I go create, which is what college taught me. So backward. I'm not the one buying it. Who cares? Right? William Winterton Yeah, you're not your ideal client at all? Stephen Larsen No, yeah. So that's how we bed. So very fast. William Winterton That's how we got. And that's great. And I think that's the thing we get so wrapped up in and I talked to coaches all day long. And they're their biggest thought, at least a lot of them are, I've got to get more training, I've got to learn how to do this better. I've got to become a better coach, I've got to do all this stuff. And it's like they learned they learned they learned that perpetually schooling and learning. And it's awesome because they're continually you know that they're feeding that right? When it comes out to, you know, creating something, the number of times I see people who are like, Hey, I'm a life coach and a health coach. And that's what they say you're like, Yeah, but what do you Who do you serve? What's your Fix? Right? Yeah. So so what you just laid out and how people are realizing this, this is what you're laying out is is so key to actually making your coaching business work. Yeah, get offered place, you're just another face in the crowd Really? Stephen Larsen So true. Before even thinking about what you do, I was thinking about who you want to serve. In fact, that's where I got stuck for years as I was like, what products I sell, what should I sell? What should I sell? And it was like something I kind of whipped myself with for years. It wasn't until I switched it that actually started making money. I mean, it was that stark of a switch. And instead of saying, What do I sell, it's, who do I sell? And when I got clear on that, what to sell was actually chosen by the who knows, like, Oh, that's way easier. I don't have to be this prolific, creative genius, and make something that no one has ever seen, like college and mainstream entrepreneurship teaches. That's false. And others like us, we just have to the game ever. William Winterton Nice. Hey, Steve, I would keep you on here for another hour too, because I just feel like I just suck value out of you all day long. I have to respect your time. I know you got like a minute left probably the most. Is there anything that I have not asked you that would just be for a coach who is maybe not brand new, but maybe has been stuck? Maybe they've been going for a couple of years? And they're just stuck? Is there something you would just throw at them for? Can you also lose a little bit? Stephen Larsen Yeah, hundred percent what I realized my role is and kind of for some of it offends some people, man, I'm not trying to offend anybody. I just this is what I learned was that you know, I was in high school, I was 35% body fat. I had a double chin working on a triple, right. I was a big boy. I was getting picked on. I got straight D's I pretty much I got mercy graduated from high school, I went to college I got kicked out because I got pretty much straight F's. And I to wait for years to go back to reapply. I was told that I probably have ADHD, which that's not confirmed that I don't really care anymore. But whatever. Like I had a near clinical fear of speaking to adults, especially I would see an adult down the hall and I would walk the other way physically freaked me out. I had some real issues. And I would call myself like the least likely success story. So what the thing I had to realize is that funny enough when that counselor that was going to he's like you probably have ADHD, it became another whip. Oh, man, you're I don't qualify anymore. Like, I can't be I already knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I can't be an entrepreneur anymore because of Look at all this evidence. Look, I got kicked out. Look I got right. And it wasn't until I realized that. That man, those are gifts. Like every single thing in my life that has been bad. I've had to face and until I actually consciously faced it, it became a strength. And now Funny enough, one of the things I'm known for, and I'm like, What? So what's funny, this is what I realized my role as a coach is it's just this and I know why people ask what they do now, right? They my role of a coach is to teach these cash models, right? This is what they want. This is what they want what they need, is this, right? And they're going to go through some serious crap along the way. And they need to realize that the obstacle is the way Ryan Holliday quote and actually keep a coin on my desk that says the obstacles away as a reminder, I ended up learning how to learn four years later went back to college almost got straight A's the whole time, right little coin obstacles the way. And on the back says the impediment to action advances action, what stands in the way becomes the way and I freakin' love this right. And I went I lost tons of weight and started competing in sprint triathlons and placing in them. I learned how to speak you wouldn't know that I was afraid of speaking now. Right? It was by me. Like they want whatever you're coaching them for. But what they need is to realize that all this crap in their life, all these reasons why they feel like they're unqualified, or the very reason they'll be followed in the future. But most of them don't get it. And so what happens is, while I'm in the middle of my coaching, and I'm teaching this, but I'm starting to observe this, they start doing some of these things. Oh, Stephen. I just don't have the time right now. You know, I just wish that I or Stephen, you know, I so wish right now, like, I can't do this because of this, right? And they want me to say yes. And the moment I say yes, I release them, I release them. And it's why I started yelling. Because they would look at me. And they'd be like, well, Stephen, what this. So this only works for those will be like three weeks into the one phone away challenge. So you're saying this, this only works than for the scenarios, right? What is wrong with you, right? I've gone over this time and time again, talk asked me to let you go cuz I'm not going to, which means you are going to let you go. So you face you in the mirror next time. And that's what's so funny. And people would like to poop their pants half of them will leave. But we're left with these people who are ready to actually face the crap in their life obstacles the way and realize that, and the funnel we launched last week, I'm still using the same principles that I learned six years ago, has nothing to do with the model anymore. It has everything to do with how far I'm willing to grow and face my obstacles and find the next one to find the next one and read it develop me keep the goal what it is and break me on the goal. Don't change the goal, break me on it and keep building me on it. And I keep killing all these nasty character flaws that I didn't know I had. And that's what people run into. And so when you're coaching somebody, whatever it is, that's what I'm watching for, as I'm watching for this logical release that they want me to give so I can justify them bowing out and I'm like not going to do it. Not going to do it. I'm going to make you feel the heat. Right. And anyway, but that's what I remember the obstacles away. William Winterton That's awesome, man. Awesome. See you guys been a pleasure. Thanks so much for jumping on. And hey, I'd love to have you back at some point. Whenever your schedule freezes up for the next you know, 35 days. Stephen Larsen You're the man Dude, this has been awesome. Love to be on the show. William Winterton Thanks so much.

Last week was the tribute to NASA in honor of the 50 year anniversary of Neil Armstrong’s first steps on the moon. In that episode I told you about the space race, the Cold War, and how that all boiled down into five tips your business can learn and implement from the success NASA saw during the 1960s. If you haven’t listened to it yet, give it a shot! Today, we are going to talk about partitioning, which I mentioned briefly in episode 56 on mental accounting. This is essentially about how the way things are offered or packaged can either encourage or discourage additional purchases and actions. I will let you know how this works both for physical products and service businesses, and how you can use this concept within your business. Show Notes: [04:09] Partitioning has shown us that when you put tiny barriers into place, it causes a consumer to consider their options and be presented with a new decision point. [04:46] If you are sitting in front of the TV with a giant, party-sized bag of Cheetos in front of you…how much will you eat? It's likely you will eat more than you intend even if you don't realize it. [05:30] When food items are partitioned into smaller containers, and you're required to take an action like grab another one out of the box, it creates a new decision point. The small transaction cost will drastically reduce the number of people who will go get a second serving. [06:26] An experiment was done with bottomless soup bowls. A group whose bowl kept refilling, without them knowing it, ate 73% more. [07:55] Have you ever found that putting less on your plate and having to go back for seconds caused you to eat less? [09:10] Decision making opportunities increase awareness and the amount of cognitive processing used. [10:31] One study found that once something became common – like a white partition between cookies – it no longer acted as a partitioning mechanism. [11:52] It isn’t just effort that matters, but drawing the attention of the conscious brain really matters too. [13:03] Partitioning and aversion impacts can also be seen in gambling. [13:49] A gambling study featuring partitioned envelopes showed that once an envelope was opened…all the coupons inside were likely going to be bet, but the number of envelopes significantly impacted the total amount gambled. [15:50] Gamblers will think of house money differently and keep cash or chips in different pockets while playing. They have instilled their own method of partitioning, even if they don’t realize it. [16:43] In another study, people with a higher aversion to gambling were significantly impacted by the partitions. [17:57] Partitioning money has also been found to help people save more or spend less. [18:45] The Shopping Momentum effect is where once you start the process of spending, you are more likely to spend again until you hit a partition. [20:32] What does this mean for your business? It's not only impactful on eating and spending, but other behaviors are impacted. It doesn't need to be a physical item that needs to be opened or unwrapped. Any cognitive interventions can trigger partitioning. [22:11] Having an AC that shuts off automatically and you have to walk over and turn back on is a nudge to use less energy. [25:03] Anticipated regret can force you to rethink a decision and possibly change your mind. [26:56] Questioning the price of a customer's purchase is a lose-lose situation where adding a partition is worse for everyone involved. [27:08] It's easy to talk people out of a sale, or make them feel bad about a purchase (or start to regret it) even when you are trying to be helpful. [27:24] If you keep asking someone, “are you sure?” you are creating unnecessary partitions and of course they are going to say, “I guess not” at some point. [28:00] Setting up targets or progress markers, on the other hand, can be great partitions for a business to set up to keep on the radar of their current, past or potential customers. [29:06] Removing partitions and obstacles can be great for businesses and customers alike. [30:08] Schedule a follow up call and get on their calendar RIGHT THEN at the event. I do this all the time thanks to the advice of Sales Maven Nikki Rausch, and it has made such a difference. [32:10] Every piece, whether it is an email or a Facebook ad or a direct mailer should be clear and concise. Can someone look and very quickly know what they are supposed to do? What the next step is? Simplify to eliminate steps. [33:49] The moral: make it easy for people to do business with you. Remove unnecessary partitions in the process and everyone will be happier. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  Links and Resources: Episode 57. 5 Things Your Business Must Learn from NASA These 5 Leadership Strategies Enabled NASA's Impossible Moon Landing. They Matter Now More Than Ever Episode 56. Behavioral Economics Foundations: Mental Accounting 14th Annual People's Choice Podcast Awards The Effect of Partitions on Controlling Consumption Episode 52. Biases – Math is Hard Bottomless Bowls: Why Visual Cues of Portion Size May Influence Intake A top Cornell food researcher has had 15 studies retracted. That’s a lot. Episode 21. Behavioral Economics Foundations: Habits Episode 51. Behavioral Economics Foundations: Time Discounting Episode 9. Behavioral Economics Foundations: Loss Aversion The Shopping Momentum Effect Episode 27. Behavioral Economics Foundations: The Sense of Hearing and Sound Episode 35. Behavioral Economics Foundations: Nudges and Choice Architecture Your Sales Maven The Selling Staircase: Mastering the Art of Relationship Selling

I'm very excited today and I have a very special guest.   This is somebody who had been an extremely active participant in the community and, honestly, I get excited every time I see you comment.   I'm very, very pumped to have you on today. Please welcome to the show, Tricia Robino. Very excited to have you.   GUEST FROM THE SECRET MLM HACKS COMMUNITY   Tricia: Very excited to be here Steve. Thank you so much for having me.   Steve: This is going to be awesome.   A few weeks ago we were looking through and thinking “Now who would be really fun with a cool story to just bring on the show?” And immediately, Coulton was like, “Oh my gosh, you got to get Tricia on”.   That's exactly when I reached out and I’m so glad you that you could make it. Thanks for jumping on.   Tricia: Yeah, no problem.   Steve: Just so everyone gets to know you a little bit. How did you get started in MLM?   Tricia: Well that's a great story, because I'm in the wellness space just like you.   Steve: Nice.   Tricia: Just after my son was born, which was 40 years ago, I got out of shape. So I was trying to get back into shape.   I got really super hooked on the wellness industry. I was an aerobic instructor and then owned a health club.   What it came down to was, I really wanted to make money doing what I loved and so I thought it was going to be the health club.   I really wanted success and I really wanted to feel good and have people think I was doing something really, really cool. Because all my brothers and sisters, they're like CFOs, they're lawyers, they're dentists.   Steve: You have an unofficial bar, right?   Tricia: Exactly. I had this bar and so believe it or not, owning a health club was cool. And I actually was able to make money. At one point I made $10,000 a month.   Steve: Cool.   HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU’RE MAKING IT AS AN ENTREPRENEUR? Tricia: That's kind of how I was making it. But what happened was ... Have you ever heard of this big company called 24 Hour Fitness?   Steve: No.   Tricia: Yeah, right. They opened in San Leandro. I'm in Oakland, CA.   They opened 20 minutes away from me. It exploded and this space was very difficult to make money in. I mean it was super, super hard.   And so, I went bankrupt.   Steve: Sure.   Tricia: So like all good entrepreneurs, I filed my bankruptcy.   I had to do it, but it was pretty devastating.   It was embarrassing to be quite honest with you.   My son looked up to me, I was embarrassed. It pretty much devastated my life at that point. I got a divorce. I mean it was just like that whole story of everything just fell apart.   I had $267 in the bank. My dad had to bail me out. I had to write that letter to my sisters to see who could help me.   I mean it was just really, really, rally hard.   Steve: Oh man.   Tricia: But I didn't want to get a job. I quickly realized I loved working for myself and I did not want to get a job.   I would've rather lived underneath the bridge than have to work for somebody else.   But I needed to make money... And what did I know how to do? I knew how to grow a business. I had been growing business for 13 years.   So I worked as a business consultant. Which is another way of saying, “You know I don't have a job, I don't have anything, so I'm just going to help other people make money.”   I remember the day when I picked up this book called “Rich Dad, Poor Dad.”   DO YOU LOVE WORKING FOR YOURSELF?   Steve: It's the gateway drug for every entrepreneur.   Tricia: So I read this book called "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" in about three trips to the bathroom. It was like I was glued to this.   I realized that I wasn't a gym owner. I wasn't an aerobic instructor, I was this thing called an entrepreneur.   And that's when it really sunk in that I was an entrepreneur and he talked about network marketing.   I'm one of those guys that literally started looking for a network marketing company. I've been in network marketing of 16 years.   I was looking for a network marketing company. I literally recruited my upline to get me into the business, and I was 53.   So side note, I did not quit my job, which is what I always recommend to everybody. Get excited, but don't quit your job yet.   So I didn't quit my job, I kept working, but I was just in love with the whole industry. I jumped in, hook line and sinker, worked part-time with a full-time attitude.   Back then we had this incredible system, which was about lead generation, and I really loved that system because we called it scrubbing the leads.   We would have a lead come in, but we had a system where they would get more and more interest. They had to jump through hoops to get to the next level, so I knew that they weren't just sort of kind of interested.   Steve: This person's actually serious versus kind of dabbling.   Tricia: Because of the system, I was able to move up our marketing plan really fast. Everybody has different levels in their marketing plan. In 4 years, I got to the 1%.   BUILDING A SUCCESSFUL COMMUNITY   Steve: Oh wow.   Tricia: Yeah, through a system.   Steve: Wow.   Tricia: Which was great. It was fast, but really slow at the beginning.   Steve: Sure, it felt slow I'm sure.   Tricia: It felt like I couldn't get to making even $3,000 a month.   I couldn't get to that point where I really felt like I could quit my job and literally I didn't quit my job at the very beginning because I knew that I wanted to advertise.   I've always believed in advertising, I've been an entrepreneur for a very long time. So I wanted to make sure I had some wiggle room right there.   I was finally able to quit my job. We do a lot of personal development. I hear you, I was at Funnel Hacking Live 2 times, I've been to Offer Mind, I've been to Boise to see you, so I know that you're in to that too.   Jim Rome worked with our company for years and years. So I had a chance to meet him, get to know him, spend some weekends with him.   Personal development was another reason that I moved up the marketing plan. Then things changed, right?   I've been in this industry for 16 years. Here's the thing, if you don't expect it to change, you're not going to do very well.   I change all the time, right? And to be honest, that's what makes it fun for me.   Steve: Yeah, me too.   AN ENTREPRENEUR LOVES CHANGE   Tricia: If you're an entrepreneur and you like change, then just keep your eyes open. So that's what I've always done.   Our model kind of changed to the point where it was more face to face. People were starting to do lots of fit camps and opening up nutrition clubs and things like that. You know I did it, but I didn't love it.   Steve: Yeah, it bothered you a little.   Tricia: I do networking marketing because I like the time freedom, I want to work from home. I travel, that's one of my passions.   You know, I really want to be able to travel and do the things that I love. It's a great model, it really works, I love face to face.   I was hearing people from the stage, all these different network marketing companies and doing so much with social media and I'm like “This really sounds like fun.”   About a year and a half ago, I got my first ClickFunnels account and that's where I heard about you. When we had the round tables and I was trying to squeeze my way into your table.   Steve: That's right as I was standing on the chair screaming?   START WORKING ON YOUR BUSINESS!   Tricia: Yeah. But I still liked you anyway. I was like "He's my kind of guy."   I started to become acquainted with you and then as soon as I got home, I think pretty much after I got home is when you launched Secret MLM Hacks. And I was like, "Well, of course I've got to sign up for that”.   We completed the whole thing. I mean we were just like "Okay, let's do this, and we've got to do this, and he's closing it down." I can't remember what it was but-   I just have notes, upon notes, upon notes. I did it ALL.   Steve: So what's happened in your business as a result of it?   Tricia: As a result of it, I have been able to really focus on completely working online.   Steve: That's awesome.   Tricia: And I've been able to duplicate it too. I published a book and right now, I'm just finishing up. I hacked your funnel.   Steve: Good.   Tricia: So I'm just finishing up. The FREE plus shipping.   Steve: Nice.   Tricia: It's actually done. I have to just do the final touches.   Steve: Sure.   Tricia: I hooked up with Anchor and started a podcast.   Steve: Nice.   Tricia: I've done a 5 day workshop with a quiz and there’s a funnel for that.   Steve: Wow.   Tricia: I have almost finished a membership funnel. I'm working on my application funnel. I haven't completed that yet, but I have started on it. I'm doing monthly events.   WORKING ON YOUR SALES FUNNELS   Steve: For your team and such or is it for bringing in new people?   Tricia: It's to bring in new people.   Steve: That's awesome.   Tricia: I'm doing 5 day wellness workshops.   Steve: Oh cool.   Tricia: In fact this one workshop, this one group, I have over 1,100 people in it right  now.   Steve: Wow! Holy cow.   Tricia: Yeah, so that's good. I've been creating a community of brand new people. I have a community of product users. I've got a community of people who are moving up the marketing plan. I have a community of my builders. I’ve really focused and really heard you when you say it's not the WHAT, it's the WHO.   Steve: Yeah.   Tricia: So I've really been working on my WHO.   Steve: That's so cool. You've got more audiences that this has let you bring in. You can train them more. Has it helped you sell more product so far?   Tricia: Yeah, absolutely. But within the framework of how we can sell the product I have, that's going to be part of my free plus shipping for my book.   Steve: Nice. Yeah, okay. I love that. Put something in the front, you sell it all on the back anyway. Totally love that.   Tricia: Exactly. Yeah, so that's worked out really, really good.   ARE YOU NERVOUS ABOUT BECOMING AN ENTREPRENEUR?   Steve: What would you say to somebody then who's getting nervous about trying this?   This whole concept of the internet plus MLM is so foreign to so many people. What would you say to somebody who's nervous about that?   Tricia: About the internet?   Steve: Yeah, just about using it. All the tools we have, so many people are so scared of it.   Tricia: Here's my note. It works for me, and I've been able to validate those numbers and that is one of the things that I'm keeping close track of.   How much money do I spend, how many leads do I get, how many people go through my funnel, what's the end result, how much money am I making? We have people moving like they've never moved before, using social media tools.   Steve: Right, they're on fire.   Tricia: They're on fire and it's the next... I'm not even going to say it's the next new thing, it IS the new thing.   I would do it because you get everybody prepped for it. It's like you have to create the attractive character. People don't know that they're cool, you know? I didn't know I was cool until I put on my green glasses, was just myself, no apologies for anything, just have fun.   Steve: What does your upline think about all of this?   Tricia: I've got real supportive people in my organization. In fact, the person that first mentioned ClickFunnels to me, was my upline.   Steve: Oh that's awesome.   Tricia: That's never been an issue at all.   THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF ENTREPRENEUR   Steve: That's so awesome.   One of the big things that I hear from people when I'm talking to them about this or they're starting to see what it is that I'm proposing and they're like “What, this is so foreign.”   One of the biggest things that I hear from people, and you just kind of touched on it a little bit but they say things like “Steven, I'm nothing like you. I don't want to have to be like you in order to have success in this.”   I'm like “Whoa, that's not at all how this works, you know. You get to be you, LOUDLY"   Tricia: Not only do my clients need different personality types, and they are going to be different personality types, we all enhance each other.   In network marketing we work together and so therefore, if you have members of your team in there with new people, then the new people have everybody's story.   THE MOST VALUABLE PART OF THE SECRET MLM HACKS COMMUNITY   Steve: What would you say has been the most valuable thing so far that you've gotten from the program?   That you've actually been able to use and apply, and you're like, "Wow, that was good."   Tricia: I hear you in my head all the time. But this is something that you said at Funnel Hackers, because I was just in Nashville.   You said at Funnel Hackers and that is, “Just do the next thing.”   Just take the next step, and that is how you have set up the whole training. Especially after I have completed the program, it's like “Okay, just build one funnel. Make it good.”   Right? Then the next step is whatever that is. And when I think about “Oh Steve just says just take the next step,” I don't have to get this whole thing figured out. I just have to go to the next step, I have to get this funnel finished and launched.   I have to do the marketing for it. That's the next step and I think for me, especially as an entrepreneur, I just want to gobble up the whole horse, I think that's the thing that I hear you saying in my head the most.   Steve: Absolutely, well thank you so much and we really appreciate it. Any parting words?   Tricia: I do have one parting word, because we can make up stories about being too old or we can make up stories about not understanding technology and I just want people to understand that's just a story.   It's just a learning curve and there's so many people that are out there to help you, just dive in. Just dive in and have fun. That's the big thing, you know? 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Tiki: Modern Tropical CocktailsBy Shannon Mustipher Intro: Welcome to the Cookery By The Book Podcast with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table talking to cookbook authors.Shannon: My name is Shannon Mustipher, and I am the author of Tiki: Modern Tropical Cocktails. When I'm not working on writing and developing cocktails, I'm the spiritual advisor, a.k.a. beverage director of Glady's Caribbean, which is a rum-focused bar in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. I also work as a consultant and educator on the spirit of topics and cocktails.Suzy Chase: This is the first cocktail recipe book written by a working, African American bartender and released by a major publisher in more than 100 years. When you decided to write this book, were you aware of that statistic?Shannon: Yeah, I was. Just a little background. I'm a big history buff, always have been, and I want to say maybe a decade ago, I became aware of a book called The Ideal Bartender by Tom Bullock, who published in 1919 and worked at the Pendennis Club in Louisville, Kentucky. He was the first and the last to publish this book, African American bartender to publish. There are a lot of bar books floating around, but that one, I just didn't ... I wasn't hearing of it, and my peers weren't reading it, and I just thought it was fascinating that it was like this little nugget of history. When I decided to write my book, it was five years ago, and I didn't know when it was going to be published based on the negotiations I was going through with my publisher, Rizzoli. For it to come out in 2019, a 100 years after Mr. Bullock's publication, just feels like there's something about it that was meant to be.Suzy Chase: I'm probably the only person in the world, but I never knew that Tiki was a huge category of cocktails. For some reason, I thought Tiki was like a vibe or a mindset. Talk a little bit about that. Shannon: It's all those. In regards to Tiki being a cocktail category, it's helpful to keep in mind that when Tiki came about in the late '30s, I mean the first Tiki bar was a spin-off of hinky dinks and that became Don the Beachcomber. Don the Beachcomber, his name was Ernest Gantt, was kind of a world traveler, rum aficionado. Came up with this idea of creating an escapist experience in his restaurant because this is at the end of the Great Depression, and people were looking for some relief from the day to day. The type of cocktails he came up with differed from every other in that you could blend a couple different spirits in one cocktail. That had never been done before. You could also blend a few different juices as opposed to most recipes that would have one or two at the most and various sweeteners and things of that nature. Those features of cocktail you're not seeing other styles of cocktail, and that's ... The recipes are like the core of what makes it different. Then there's other elements like the attention to vessels and presentation and things like fire and orchids and all this craziness that just not ... you're not seeing it in other styles of cocktail. From I would say a structural standpoint where the recipe concerned, there are some clear differentiations. Then of course in the presentation, you don't see that outside of Tiki. Suzy Chase: Last week Grub Street mentioned you saying you're a central figure in the Tiki renaissance in New York City. It's all about the appearances the element of surprise. Do you think this is a misunderstood tradition or a forgotten tradition or both? Shannon: I don't it's as misunderstood as it was when I got my start five years ago. I had to qualify in that on the west coast where Tiki originated, it never fully disappeared. Right? There was a moment where there was only a few bars that still had the authentic recipes. The reason for that was there was secrecy around those recipes, and they were coded because the restaurants and bars that served Tiki in the '40s were very popular, and the information regarding those products was considered propietary. It be like, think of the recipe or formula for Coca-Cola. That's proprietary. Right? When the people that created those recipes and worked in those restaurants retired, they didn't necessarily share the knowledge. This sort of knowledge begins to die off, and then add to that in the late '60s and '70s, American mixology in general was on the wane. It was associated with a generation that was a little bit older. Younger kids, the hippies so to speak, weren't interested in drinking cocktails like their parents did. They preferred recreational experiences. You know what I mean? Yeah, from the '70s through the '90s, there was no information really. You had Tiki tea in California and Los Angeles and Tonga Hut remained open, and there are other places. Outside of a handful of bars, people didn't really know the recipes anymore. The few that did, they weren't talking about it or giving out those recipes because that was just a culture, to keep them under lock and key. When Jeff Beachbum Berry began writing his book about 15, 20-odd years ago, he did the most extensive research into Tiki, went to all those bars, and looked for the rum bottles and scoured any document he could find and was able to reverse engineer and figure out what these drinks actually were. As his books became more popular, and people were more aware of what he was doing, then Tiki started to make a comeback. It wasn't reduced to oh, it's a sweet, tropical drink with an umbrella in it. People began to see the workings and the mechanics of this style of cocktail and understand and appreciate the level of craft that goes into taking eight or 10 ingredients and balancing it in a cocktail. Now, the cat's out of the bag. Right? We have the Jeff Beachbum Berry books. We have Smuggler's Cove, which does an excellent job of talking about not only the history of Tiki and showing us those recipes as well as Martin Cate's newer recipes. The information is out there now. Maybe there are people that still misunderstand it, but it just doesn't have to be that way anymore. Whereas 20 years ago, there just was scant means to educate yourself about it. Suzy Chase: Give us the short history of rum. Shannon: Yeah, sure. Rum is a byproduct of the sugar industry. When European powers began to colonize the Americas, the top priority was to find a cash crop or some other resource that would provide a large stream of revenue, big stream of revenue. Initially the thought was gold, and that didn't really work out. There was experimentation with various things, rice and cotton. Sugar was the one, especially in the Caribbean, that had the highest yield. Just some context, the kind of revenue that was coming out of just Barbados or Jamaica alone by the late 19th century, was on par with oil boom or the gold rush and what took place in Silicon Valley more recently. There had never been a moment in the history of the world where there was such a big shift in the economy. It's important to remember that rum is not just a style or a category of spirit that came about because that's what someone wanted to make. They had this idea in mind of a flavor profile and certainly wanted to craft. It's a byproduct and another way to add revenue to a sugar plantation, their operation. For who are less familiar, in order to produce rum you need molasses or you could use fresh cane juice, but rum as we know it in the Caribbean came about when planters were looking for a way to utilize molasses which was regarded as a waste product. They discovered that you could ferment it and then distill it. This began in earnest around 1705. Prior to that, in the earlier part of the 17th century, there was a little bit of rum production on the islands, but it was basically moonshine. It wasn't packaged. It wasn't bottled. People didn't regard it as a spirit category in the way that we look at spirits today. It was just, this is what we have to drink in terms of alcohol because we can't make beer here. It's too expensive to bring over wine. In fact, the wine doesn't really travel well in the heat. This all began to change, and rum started moving towards how we think of it in a modern sense in 1650 when Jamaica was taken by the British. The British adopted rum as the liquid that they will give out in their daily ration, which became a form of payment in addition to a supplement to the really poor diet that the sailors had on board. By 1750, the Navy had grown to such an extent that they could no longer source the rums themselves from the islands, but they hired an outside firm called [ED & Man 00:11:08]. This firm would source the liquid from various islands and then take them over to London. They created a proprietary blend, and they would age it there. Meanwhile, for those of you who don't know, brands the way we think of them today, they didn't exist back then. A distiller didn't have a face or a label. They didn't make liquid and put it in a bottle and sell it. They'd make liquid and sell it to brokers, and the brokers would create the brands and sell the products. At this time, there was a robust business around that in the scotch and port and sherry categories in London. These merchants caught on to the rum, and they realized that it was par on with single malt scotch, especially the rums from Jamaica which are highly prized, because they had a really special aroma and heavy body due to their production processes. By 1820s, this is when you start to see rum appear as a commercial product in Europe. To this day in the Netherlands and in Germany, the preference for rum [inaudible 00:12:23] Jamaica styles that haven't differed too much from that time. By 1860s, then you start to see rum become a big global business, do brands like Bacardi. Where we are today is we are getting back to looking at the earliest styles of productions of rum. We want what we consider to be more authentic expressions that haven't had sugar added and are made on stills or in facilities that have been operation for 200 or 300 years. It's a really great moment for the category, especially where Tiki is concerned, we can make the recipes the way they were intended. There was a moment in the '70s through the early '90s where the rums that were in the original recipes were not available in the U.S. You could attempt to make the drinks, but you were not really going to really hit it. Now, we can make those drinks again. Suzy Chase: In opinion, what's a good rum to start off with if you're not familiar with rum? Shannon: Well, here's the thing. Rum is a huge category. You can make it in over 90 countries. I compare it to wine in that ... Let's say you look at gin and whiskey. Sure, there are some variations and different brands and styles, but it's not such a huge spectrum of rum. You can get something that's like really light and dry and clean, or you can get really fruity or earthy and funky or on the sweeter side depending on how it's produced. To answer that question, I'd say you have start at least five, because if you are trying to pick out a starter, there's so many places to start. If you take one bottle or one style, you're not ... It doesn't really capture what rum is about. With that in mind, I would suggest picking up a spectrum of rums. Right? On one hand, you want to start with say a lighter rum. For that, I would suggest Rhum Barbancourt [bonk 00:14:33] from Haiti. It's made from fresh pressed juice. Has a little bit of a delicate gassiness and fuller element to it. You can sip it neat. You can put it in cocktails. It's really easy to work with and to enjoy. From there, I would suggest picking up a bottle of an un-aged overproof English style rum, and that would most likely be Jamaican rum. That could be Rum Fire or Wray & Nephew. If you're lucky enough to go to Grenada, I really love the River Antoine. What that bottle is going to do for you is you're not necessarily going to drink it by itself. If you want to have more intensity, then you'll need a rum like that. In terms of something that's just more like everyday drinking rum, cocktail or otherwise, I would suggest picking up a Barbadian rum or a Bajan style rum, because those strike a nice balance between being fuller bodied and rich, but also really clean and smooth and elegant and super easy. The drinking culture in the islands differ from the island to island. That's reflected in the styles. In Barbados, they have this pastime called liming, which means that you gather with your friends at a little shack called a rum shop, and you sip rum all day. Maybe you use mixers, but for them it's not ... rum isn't cocktailing. Rum is just spending time with friends. Right? Then from there I would suggest you would want pick up a rhum agricole from Martinique or one of the former French territories. Those are really cool. They're made from fresh cane juice like the Barbancourt I mentioned, but their standards of production, they have a DLC around it. They're very particular about what you're going taste in the glass because they want to highlight and emphasize the [tarare 00:16:27] of their respective geographic areas. There's also a lot of influence from Armagnac and Cognac production there. With the agricoles, you get to see a really high level of production and crafted. You don't typically associate with rums, but I think trying those will shift your perception around what you think rum is in a positive way. Lastly, some people prefer what they would call a smoother, rounder, richer type of spirit. I find that people that prefer whiskey have a tendency to enjoy Spanish-style rums which undergo more time in the barrel because the Spanish approach is more influence by wine and sherry where the base liquid is not what's emphasized, but what's emphasized is a barrel regimen and the house style and the skill of the blender. That's what they want you to taste in the end. Suzy Chase: Yeah. I read in the book that for example, Jamaican rums have kind of grassy notes, and that's something you wouldn't even think about with rum. Shannon: That's why I love it. Prior to opening Gladys and working in that program five years ago, I was into a pre-prohibition era cocktails and gin and whiskey and all that stuff. I still enjoy it on occasion, but if God came to me and told me that from here on out I was confined to only drinking one spirit category, I'd happily choose rum because there's one for everybody and for every mood or hour or what have you. If I want something that is really dry and light and crisp, I can find it in the rum category. If I want something that's big and bold and chewy or even smokey, I can find that in rum as well. If I just had gin for instance, the spectrum of options is limited. Suzy Chase: In Tiki, chapter one kicks off with foundational cocktails. What are those? Shannon: Where rum is concerned, there's what we call the holy trinity, which is rum, sugar, and lime. They just work really well together in the earliest rum drinks. The Navy grog, that's rum, sugar, and lime. The Caipirinha, it's made with Cachaça so it's not technically rum, but the Cachaça is sugar and lime. The same is true for the [Dakaiti 00:19:00], which rum, sugar, and lime. In those foundational drinks, we walk through those cocktails so that you can taste the different styles of rum and get a sense for how those rums behave. The underlying elements are more or less the same. Also, those drink a base template for others cocktails that follow, and so the bulk of Tiki drinks have those three elements and them build from there. Suzy Chase: There's a technique in the book called fat washing spirits. What does that mean? Shannon: It's an infusion. It was pioneered by Don Lee who is a partner in Existing Conditions currently and got his start at PDT. With fat washing, you take an oil. It could be derived from an animal. Don Lee's was smoked bacon fat. I do a lot of vegan fat washes, so I love coconut oil. Essentially you I guess steep or infuse the liquid with the oil for a 12-hour period at room temperature, and then you freeze it so that the solids separate. They come to the top. You skim it off. You strain it. What happens is that the liquid is now, it has those fat molecules in it. It takes on a different texture and a creamier mouth feel. Milk punches utilizes the same principle. They're very labor intensive. It requires multiple steps and a number of ingredients and a couple days to achieve that result. Yeah, milks punches which were popular in the 18th century, have made a little bit of a comeback in the modern bar, is where that idea is derived. Fat washing with oils is much faster and more consistent. Suzy Chase: You created a cocktail inspired by a reggae song. Tell us about that. Shannon: It's one of my favorite cocktails actually. It's called the Kingston Soundsystem. I was approached by Punch Magazine to pick a reggae song and make a cocktail. I really love Skylarking by Horace Man. It's a really chill, laid back, kind of lazy day kind of song. I was like, okay. There's a bird reference here. I love the Jungle Bird. I'm going come up with an unusual twist on it. The idea was kind of like a white angelonia. I wanted to make a white Jungle Bird. For those who are not familiar with the cocktail, they Jungle Bird has aged Jamaican rum. It has Campari, lime, and pineapple. I looked at each of those elements and went on the other end of the spectrum. Rather than aged Jamaica rum, I used an un-age higher proof Jamaica rum. It's call Rum Fire. Instead of Campari, I used a gentian liqueur called Suze. I love that stuff. A consumer right now, the American public is not too hip to it, but I think it's wonderful. I use it kind of in a way, a lot of people have used St. Germain in the past, which is elderflower liqueur, but way too sweet for my tastes. I want something dryer. That's stands in for the Campari. Rather than pineapple, I wanted to again reference Jamaica so I use Soursop. Soursop is a large fruit about the size of a big cantaloupe, and it has little prickles on it. Kind of think of it as a prickly pear. It has a really wonderful, delicate, floral aroma in the nose. It's delightful for those who have not tried it. Then again, not very sweet. Kind of tastes cross between a pear and an apple, but it has a really clean, dry finish on it. There's really nothing else like it. Then of course, there's a lime. The result is a drink that follows the Jungle Bird template, but takes it in a dryer, more herbaceous direction. Suzy Chase: Do you think we can find these ingredients in our local grocery store or liquor store/Whole Foods? Shannon: It depends on where you live. Soursop, you'll find it in Caribbean stores or Asian stores. If you can't find the juice, you can usually find it as a frozen concentrate. That would be Goya or [lafame 00:23:43]. Then where Suze is concerned, yeah, if you live in an area where you can get to a decent liquor store that has Craft products, you'll find it. Suzy Chase: As a bartender, what's the most annoying request you get the most?Shannon: I don't. I like bar-Suzy Chase: Nothing? Shannon: You know how some people are like, "Oh my God, you're ordering a Mojito now. It's busy." For me, I'm there to serve the guests and I'm delighted to do it. You're there to get what you want, and that's why I'm there, to give you what you want. Case in point. I was doing a pop-up, and it was Tiki drinks. Someone wanted a Martini. I was so excited because she was getting what she wanted. I made a her what I hoped was a really good Martini. I really enjoyed it and so did she. Suzy Chase: They're more than 60 beautiful color photographs in this book. You call Tiki a theater for the senses, and you get such a good feel for that with Noah Fecks' photos. Tell us about your friendship with him. Shannon: It's a beautiful one. We met through a mutual friend, Nicole Taylor. She's the author of the Up South cookbook. Suzy Chase: She's amazing. Shannon: Oh, God. I want to be her when I grow up. Suzy Chase: Me too. Shannon: I met her a decade ago. She's just so dynamic and has forged her own path. She's totally Nicole and just ... I don't know. I can't go on enough about her. I had a birthday party and she invited him to tag along. She predicted that we would quote unquote ride off into sunset together. We hit it off that night, and we're chatting. He approached me shortly thereafter about doing some test shoots at Gladys because he shoots a lot of food. He wanted to added some liquor and cocktail content to his book. The shoots went really well. I worked in the photo industry for the first five years of living in New York as a style and prop assistant. I knew procedures of how a shoot would go. It was really smooth and the images were beautiful. Shortly after that, he suggested that we do this book with Rizzoli. Suzy Chase: I don't know how long this book took you, but there is a full color photo with every cocktail in this book. I can't even imagine the work that went into that. Shannon: Well, I mean, had I know how much work was going to go into it, I don't know if I would have agreed to do it. Suzy Chase: I mean, just looking at it I just think, wow, that's a lot of work, but it's gorgeous. Shannon: I mean, to be fair, I believe that that work is not just what I did in the two years that I was writing it and producing a book, but in the years prior that I spent studying visual art and practicing as an artist, I went to [Ritzies 00:26:52], studied painting and art history. I started drawing when I was five. I was always making things. The book was really exciting in that not was I able to share my recipes and more importantly, my approach to flavors and ingredients, but also could indulge that part of me that wanted to create images. That was the intention behind the photography in the book. Now, you look at a lot of cocktail photography and it follows a formula. It's like, okay, here's a drink on a bar or against some kind of backdrop or what have you, and that's pretty much it. Because we're working in Tiki, we wanted to go beyond and create vignettes that would evoke a story. Suzy Chase: Well, you did it. It feels like it's a culmination of your fashion background and your mixology background. This is all of that in one book. Shannon: Oh, yeah. When I closed my studio shortly before I moved in New York 12 years ago, I had a lot of friends around me who were dismayed because, "You're so good. Why are you doing this?" I had various reasons. I didn't think that what I refer to as the art industry was for me. One of my biggest reservations around it was the accessibility of that work and the class issues around it. Right? Where do most people go to see art? They go to galleries. They go to museums. Museums are wonderful institutions, but there are a lot of people that can't afford to go to a museum, or culturally it's just not an inviting place for certain individuals. When you go deeper than that, when it's time to buy artwork, that's again confined to a class of people. Taken further, when a collector acquires a work, doesn't necessarily get seen. I think the statistic is that 70 to 80% of all the artwork is in storage. This idea of making this thing for a select few is probably just going to sit in a dark room. That's not where I wanted to put my energy, and that's not how I want to share what I had to say in the world. With that being said, being able to make a cocktail book where my creativity could be there and it was very accessible to people. I mean, a cocktail is like 10 or 15 bucks. Most people can do that every once in a while, was really gratifying. Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called my last meal. What would you have for you last supper, and what cocktail would you have with it? Shannon: I'm a pretty simple person. I would have ostrich steak. Suzy Chase: That's simple? I thought you were going to be, "I'll just have a taco." You say ostrich steak. That's so interesting. Shannon: It's so delicious. You ever had it? Suzy Chase: No. Shannon: It's going to change your life. Okay. Suzy Chase: Where do you get that? Shannon: Okay, so I had it in South Africa. I think that if you live in Africa or certain parts of the world, I mean, I think you can get ostrich here. The whole point is in South Africa, it's not a big deal. That's the meat that they have. Right? Like we have cows, they have ostrich. It's like a steak, but the texture ... I don't know. I can't even tell you why it was so good. I'd do that and pair it with a nice glass of wine. Suzy Chase: Not rum? Shannon: No. Suzy Chase: Wow. What kind of wine? You're just throwing me off today. Shannon: What kind of wine? Probably a Zen or ... No, that's too sweet. I don't know. Something kind of dusty, maybe [Linwood 00:31:00]. I used to work in wine. I still enjoy it. Yeah, I mean, rum's great, but I just don't if it would go that good with the steak. Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web, social media and in Brooklyn? Shannon: My website, Shannon dot ... shannonmustipher.com. It's not a dot. That's my email. On Instagram, same thing. Just Shannon Mustipher. I don't have an alias. I'm like, no ... I want you to find me. It's not like, what's her handle? Just my first, I say. Put it into Google. You'll find me. Suzy Chase: It's M-U-S-T-I-P-H-E-R for everyone out there. I also want to remind everyone that we're going to be doing a free live Tiki talk and book signing at Lizzyoung Bookseller in Cobble Hill in Brooklyn on Thursday, May 30th. Look for more information on my Instagram and Shannon's, and we we hope to see you there. Thank you so much, Shannon, for coming on Cookery By the Book Podcast. Shannon: Suzy, it was a pleasure. Thank you for taking the time, and I look forward to seeing you next Thursday. Outro: Follow Suzy Chase on Instagram at Cookery By the Book, and subscribe at cookerybythebook.com or in Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening to Cookery By the Book Podcast, the only podcast devoted to cookbooks since 2015.

Chris Husong is a market expert in the hemp industry. Accounting for the challenges of public perception, legal challenges, and the burdens of science to prove the claims for hemp benefits have all shaped the climate in which hemp is used today. Born in Texas, Chris moved with his parents a few times throughout the country, studied theology in California, worked in finance and telecom, and after confronting his own biases, discovered that the hemp industry needed legitimatization. Teaching the skeptics, directing messaging for correct use, and ultimately using education as the chosen tool for sales, Chris shared with GCP why the truth behind hemp is the only way to properly build its acceptance.https://elixinol.comFacebook: @Elixinol https://www.facebook.com/elixinol/LinkedIn: @Elixinol https://www.linkedin.com/company/elixinol/Twitter: @ElixinolCBD https://twitter.com/ElixinolCBD?lang=enInstagram: @Elixinol https://www.instagram.com/elixinol/KBMD CBDhttps://kbmdhealth.comhttps://gutcheckproject.comKBMD CBDhttps://kbmdhealth.comhttps://gutcheckproject.comWhy should you buy a $0.99 now the bag because it's no ordinary bag can save you 20% of three or more items you can fit inside some call that magic others say it's the eighth wonder of the world but whatever it is this the best way to save you 20% outbreaks filters wipers and more quality parts helpful people that snap a no no dissipating up auto parts store's loss was last minimum three exclusions apply 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importance of hemp and how to accept the message of me what did you can you gather out of that amine Christmas we met at first two years ago yeah so my my initial meeting of Christmas two years ago that's we told the story before will repel your facts right and I walked by the lexical booth and another salesperson other than marketing person Christine Thiel grab me and the thing I remember most about that is Dave Christine and Chris all super tall like this is a really tall child apparently hip will make you taller I know you call me someone will be involved with that company so we could do some real basketball or something you know join the election all basketball team what you honestly if you're in listening to get your project today if you've ever wondered about hey look at him is new to me and I'm not really sure what to think that's that's okay today's episode is really kind incredible as Chris can walk through what it's like to to not just look at Hampton say minutes taboo that's taboo it's okay so many people started there and he's got a lot of experience in helping people understand the benefits behind him and what he can do to change their lives for what I love about this is that he comes from these industries are so regulated and she had to transform that into an industry that is so misunderstood you know when you look at that you look at his bio he only looks on website it says it is skilled in helping people and companies overcome their psychological creative and strategic barriers so that they can achieve the professional personal and creative goals so more than just be the chief marketing officer this guys can be my life coach break through all those barriers yet when Ken and Chris Chris's got a lot of a lot of expense he actually went to theological theology school in not in California but were to talk about that for sure yes that means because just think about the transition nearly everything he's gone through in and of course and he's either great guy can't wait from to join the show hit the bottom of the hour course that they were have KPD KB MD's corner where basically Dr. Brown will die do like he's been doing the last seven shows in address some recent research topics and get tiny previews about what to talk about your two minutes yeah so what we always like to do is try to have a bootable format here so everyone knows what to get it into the show so we know we have a fantastic guest I also want to talk about some recent science it's out there so we have forcefully graduate student that helps us out and she sent a really cool article about ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease the same disease that killed Stephen Hawking right I have a very personal tide of this because when my good friends Dr. Russell Veronica in San Antonio a gastroenterologist that I've trained with and with medical school with his father unfortunately passed away of this so I saw this article which to my knowledge the first one that actually looks at ALS and CBD ties in perfectly because we have Christmas song near chief marketing officer now we can't make disease claims what we can say is look it may help some of these different diseases where there really is no treatment and this is a really cool study that I wanted didn't and it's also even said that because today shows can be so incredible and that the way we learn how to balance real information and what we can legally say as a marketing person and then what the consumer can do with both of these angles to kind of piece these puzzles together much like the episode we had last time in stem cell oh yeah you know this fascinating cool stuff you like why don't more people know about this will Chris has to deal with that every day is like no we can say this we can't say this oh my goodness yes is be fantastic if we did this but we have to do it this way because his background I think is a perfect background coming from the super regulated industry to an area that is so gray that you really need somebody very disciplined like him to sort of take the reins and that's why think election all such unique company yet without question let's get some of the paying the bills out of the way and first off the bat love my tummy.com/spoony what could that be in reference to well I believe you're talking about my baby trying to I am trying to so we talk about how our transit was initially developed for bloating and digestive issues change in bowel habits abdominal discomfort what I am seeing a whole lot of which is really cool really getting into this practice of just coming up in the next few weeks that are professional triathletes we have different bodybuilders and things like that that we have slated to come in one of the things we do realize is that the polyphenols in trying to actually increase blood flow to the muscles so that you can have better performance in just about everything so the polyphenols go to your: where your own colonic archer will break them down into anti-inflammatory and basically antioxidant species so that you can recover from workouts and you can actually increase blood flow so not only is it good for bloating but I encourage everyone to go to love my Tommy.com/spoony put in the spooning code SP 00 NY and get 10% off I just answered you did bring up athlete hotrod teal is the only NSF certified for sport product out there indicated for bloating what is it me so if something is NSF certified for sport specifically it means that 1/3 party the NSF foundation has taken the product and they made certain that everything you mark on your package is truthful date they can be backed up that the claims that you have for your studies are verified and that every single product it makes up the composite award the product itself is clean if you're an athlete you don't have to worry that something you and a girl you're going to take with the NSF certified for sport moniker on it might contaminate a sample or might not do exactly what the ad the labeling says so NSF certified for sport is the same thing that Richard dietitians there with MLB NFL NCAA Olympics Olympics they look for that little mark to make certain that when they recommend a supplement or an over-the-counter supplement or aid to their athletes that it's on there so they know that it's a it's a clean product and John Teal features that endorsement that's also because a lot of companies don't have that we pay to play for that eventually I think that what we should have is a KB MD endorsement over here was just means that we like the product to say absolutely right some quick follow-up from from my last week show one of the coolest things as people began to take in Dr. Wade McCann as if he didn't check out episode seven go back and listen last week if you have any questions about stem cells the future stem cells what it's like to market stem cells in this FDA over regulating environment even know you have truth in your hands go back and listen episode seven but once Wade McKenna finished his his episode all week we received email I even got texts stem cells are good for hair growth stem cells can actually help me with my sciatica that I've been dealing with for a few years it's amazing what people don't know about stem cells and then how many people said I thought whenever I used quote unquote cord blood that I was using stem cells and it turns out that you're just not so anyway last week's feedback to getting feedback from last week I got a ton of feedback I actually got a ton of feedback people were I got a lot of calls people wanted to go I think a lot of people actually call me how to actually get into Dr. Wade McKenna's practice of which I think is also because when we have some real like that they can make it make a difference I mean when I sit there and think about this we are completely under utilizing everybody with analysts on the show so far photo bio modulation stem cells once you get into the science you like wow the site speaks for itself much like CBD yes science much like outrun to the science hold its own yeah and that's a cool sinks within a marketing gimmick it's none of this and that's what Chris is going talk about how do you how to stay above how do you stay above the bar where everybody else is trying to play a marketing game and usually want to get out there and help people that's remarkable whenever you look back and you does mention it photo by modulation with James Carroll and talking about stem cells last week with the Dr. McKennitt the parallels that were running here with the CBD industry or hemp industry and what the FDA basically is doing because the FDA is it it it playing all three of those we got truth and results so true and you just can't cannot see it's crazy but anyhow if and you can always go back and check any of our previous episodes you can always go to iTunes and search for gut check project so be sure to subscribe and share with the print so speaking of share with a friend sought a shout out and we need a little help from our audience here only give a shout out to my friend John Demoss who texted me and said while really liking your show when you do your Instagram post make sure that you have closed caption and Eric and I stared each other like great idea and we are complete newbies to this kind of thing so like how do we do that if you know how to do that please hit us up so that though we can start put in the closed caption or whatever it is on history now do you want even better if you're interested in sharing with us you would like to I guess audition to be our Instagram helper let us now go to KPMG health.com find connect shoot us an email in the form and I will holla back at you I promise we don't know what were doing with Instagram really want to know before next week because we've got the basically an Instagram start coming on the show and so we've got we had a really cool show next week also but today is the one that were focusing on so please iTunes you to YouTube you can also do the gut check project channel you can subscribe and share there as well that we are always here in the Sony studio you can always listen live it spoony.com so smutty.com iTunes get check project YouTube gadget project thank you so much subscribe and share so Dr. Brown let's head into KPMG corner what's on the corner today well let's talk a little bit about some personal stuff start this is kind of interesting I'm a little bit embarrassed about this what you know how when sometimes it's too close to you and you don't know what's going on well my mom unfortunately she fell hurt her shoulder about three months ago and she's been rehabbing Kent and I was just talking to her and I just went oh my gosh did I not send you CBD that are not and she owes no I don't know you know I tried something like that some hemp oil what she tried screws that endure anything else like okay let me send you something so I sent her some bottles with some vitamin D and sufficient oil because I believe in using these fatty acids to really help brain information in such large Dr. couple days ago and she was post be doing three more months of rehab and she goes okay and it's so exciting I don't have to go to rehab anymore my shoulder feels great it actually back to normal this is after you sent everything this is after center about two weeks of using the CBD and so she's Artie on trunk Hill always has been for quite a while but so after sending the CBD and now embarrassed because I'm like oh my gosh my own mom herself and that would be something owed to the patient immediately you just forget when it's too close and then my sister who's actually black belt in aikido and she's always been yourself open to students rose to banged up my mom gave her a bottle and she just texted me this morning said oh my gosh that works so well the key to this Morgan talk about this with Chris that there are differences in different types of CBD and what is out there how you market so my personal story is sorry mama should be given to to three months ago just was too close to it we got so much stuff going on and you know fortunately better late than never she's doing great yeah I know that's a it's of these brothers, interesting so you said in another we can touch on Chris but when James was on James Carroll from outdoor laser he talked about imitators right and then last week with the with Dr. Wade mechanically talked about imitators or people that don't administer stem cells appropriately or may not actually even be utilizing stem cells but saying that they are or putting in chemicals that will destroy destroy those that are not probably not to their own fault I just don't know enough about it because the reality is we talked about this is CBD industry and I'm I tell my patients this I said I would get into a loop of the science would explain a little bit we have this new brochure that explains a little bit and we get into the fact of what your end or cannabinoid system is how it links the nervous system and the immune system put you back in balance that is so simplistic because the reality is were going to see a field of medicine called Endo Kanab analogy and your Genesee specialist called Endo Canavan allergist's share I'm convinced of it sure any of you have a hepatology ST have the endocrinologists there is actually no reason why you would have an Indo Campanella just as we begin to learn more that CBD absolutely totally agree right it's about you anything going on in the personal life personal life at the boys I mean honestly the boys are doing great. During off-season basketball who ended up I know that seems like add the theme but that's that's really what they're into but I did go shoot with my youngest earlier this week and I learned that dad dad is the worst basketball player in the household now Matt can drain from all points of the court I'm just I'm no match anymore there faster than I am and now that he's basically 6 foot tall and 15 and gauges about 61 now in 1730 I just not much I can do with with either one of them so very much dominate brain I headed down to Kaleo FX this week though oh that's right you want one of my favorite conferences to be great conference it's a chemist think that immediate which is so busy just to go this week will unfortunately I have to go to Newark New Jersey and film a national commercial for archer until Roger entails time to take out her until the next level were to be doing some national commercial so I would love it really affects would love to be helping out at the election all booth pate BMD CBD booth trash and talk about trying to learn the on the entourage effect without an CBD but I don't fly up to New York in the true commercial which I'm a little bit nervous about the Wilson estate bowing on the head Keith Michelle Noris tune into your commercial as soon as it airs big shot today and they are the one to put on file with X they do a great job if you never been that appealing effects in Austin Texas it is what's your time you going to be introduced to a bunch of different things that could probably change her health and that's how we found CBD out and say I'm very partial to pill effects last year I give a talk and one over really well talked a lot of people had to be able to get their books it was really exciting you just it just fun to see a like-minded community I did the mojo 50 show this morning we're talking about sugar and the paler community does not really eat M&Ms those guys do M&M tasting Delphi lot M&Ms of failure effect listen if you have M&Ms you to balance it out with much until Fisher 100% totally so yeah you just have a great time hello effects I will make you feel better about you not been know to beat your sons because the only person that can warm Lucas up is my daughter Carla because both my wife and I are incapable of even even hit the ball back against those guys don't know probably know why it's super humiliating I I feel memo Mike is it embarrassing that the youngest person in the family is the only person I can warm Osama before matches and vice versa they want each other up it's really cool that's get down so I'd have any hits on the on the corner before Chris joins us will I do want to bring up one thing here I will bring up an article I was try to bring up one article to talk about just now woman talk about marketing Christmas songs it's about marketing a lot of people look at the big deal I want to tell everyone about this and so on I really like to look at disease specific states And the article that we can achieve that in the beginning here is an article related to the meta-analysis was published in the Journal of neurochemistry here this year just couple months ago and what it looked at is it did a meta-analysis which is a compilation of studies usually meta-analysis I have in the scientific literature are considered to be more robust picture taking a lot of studies putting them together and this is looking at ALS known as anti-atrophic lateral sclerosis Lou Gehrig's disease is a devastating disease and as I had mentioned earlier it actually took the life of my good friend Dr. Russ of Ron Ike whose guesser Alderson San Antonio and we actually saw his dad his father correct we actually saw this progressive disease and that's the deal about ALS eight what it does is if you're unaware of it I find it to be one of the most devastating diseases out there there's a book called Tuesdays with Maury that I read back many years ago they commit a movie about it also censures about the progress the progression of ALS and somebody that where there is a caregiver helping them out and you get a feeling about how it just slowly chips away and what it does this damages the nerves that control muscles so over time all of your muscles weaken to the point where they cannot contract eventually hitting the diaphragm so you can't read you lose the ability to speak because you can't control your tongue you lose the ability fine motor movement changes first because the small muscles go and you can't button things and it is just a debilitating but you keep your mind eventually you have some mind changes and they don't really understand why it is they believe there's a small genetic component but really what it is it's an excitatory issue with the nerves releasing too many of certain chemicals that eventually do not allow the do not allow the muscle to contract on the words and try to sting like muscle doesn't work so this was quite a while ago I've been in practice for 17 years Russ and I with both med school and fellowship together it was during residency so were talking 27 years ago 25 years ago I do know anything about CBD fat I know they must be in touch two years ago so this study came out red actually showed that they looked at mice and they looked at their ability to travel distance they looked at their grip strength that she put them through some sort of little American ninja course where they had them hang upside down on the net so like a Jacob's ladder, it was it was it was really it was fascinating that I made a run a wheel what they did is they they actually looked at those that had that were given CBD and those that were the control group and what they showed across the board in this meta-analysis is that those mice I'm sorry let me preface that the mice were genetically predisposed to have ALS so they all had a lot okay okay and what they did is that they showed that the mice that were on CBD could actually run further the mice could cling long-running that they actually increase the grip strength running real activity and they had improved survival and they did not have weight loss when they looked at all the studies something stood out to me that was very interesting they were all given CBD one particular study that they look that used a Madrigal inhibitor now what Maggio is is that's the enzyme that breaks down to AG one of your Dodgers and of cannabinoids in one of these days were to get into the deep science about the inner cannabinoid system gets all complex that's a drug it's in study and it's called KM L 29 so it's fascinating that the FDA's over here try to regulate right and in the background you've got drug companies try to develop drugs to manipulate the system if they can figure out that's awesome but is really interesting because the macro inhibitor was not as good as the traditional CBD and so what they found is that CD1 and CB to agonists in other words CBD significantly delayed the decline of motor function when compared to the control group and they showed a consistent 12 to 25 days longer of normal motor function in the mouse world what you doing is really improving that so right now there's no treatment for this they've got a couple drugs available one called real you tech and one called red Dick Reddick Have Not Even Sure That That Was around When Ross's Dad Was Sick They Said That It Could Potentially Slow down the Progression by a Month or Two While the Superexpensive Month or Two That's It I Member at the Time When We Went outside and Rushes Flying All over the Country Thing Is That Everywhere There Were Trying Everything They're Looking at Using Creatine and Different Things like That so Here We Have This Deal Where We've Got Eight Now You Can't Just Translate Mouse Models to Humans But It's Really One of the First Step in Trying to Figure Some Stuff out My Deal Is That We Know That CBD Helps in Many Different Ways and I'm Not Saying That This Is a Disease Claim I'm Not Saying That This Is Functioning and Will Help but It Certainly Can't Hurt and Might Help Right so When You Have a Very Specific Disease Group like ALS to Desperate Group with No Significant Treatment I Think It's Fascinating That These Guys Went to the Trouble of Putting Together This Mouse Data to Actually Try and Figure This out so Here We Have Grip Strength Upside down Running All of It Which Means That There Is Some Potential That This Could Actually Help This Very Devastating Disease and Is Very Small Group of People Because It's Rare but When It Does Affect You It Affects Everybody It May Affect One Person so the Number the Thing We'll Talk about Is When We Say Disease Oh This Is the Incidence of This Disease This Is the Prevalence of This Disease As Somebody Who Lost My Dad at a Young Age It Affects More Than Just the Person That Dies Share the Prevalence or the Incidence of the Disease Affects Everyone Around Them Right so I Think That If We Can Help Those People with ALS If You Know Anybody with ALS or Lou Gehrig's Disease This Is Something That May Be Showmen We Can Certainly Forward This Article to Anybody That Would like to so Include Any of the Studies That Utilize a Mouse AMI All All of the Drugs They Began and and and Started There to Try to Find out If This Is a Workable Model and Unfortunately with Today's Highly Regulated Environment He Can't Just Keep Going Forward but Were Trying to Help People Connect the Dots This That CBD Is Safe to Take and You Shouldn't Have Any Serious Side Effects Certainly by Consuming CBD It Just so Happens That in This Mouse Model We Saw These Improvements Draw from the Conclusions What You Will But This Is What I've Seen and I Mean I Think That Were Hinting In the in the Correct Direction I Just Think That It's You Know This Is Work Were Offering Hope Church When Scientists like This Do This You Just Offer Little Bit of Hope And It Is a Devastating Disease and We Just Want to See People and Just Offer Them Something an Alternative Right And If They Can Even If They Feel a Bit Better Well We Got 20 Seconds Left Here in Just a Moment We Are Going to Be Joined by Chris Who Song the Vice President of Marketing Communications Analytics and off a Hemp Industry Marketing Expert Is Going to Be Incredibly Silly Very Exciting and Super Excited Let's Do the Seal Here in about Two Minutes Dr. Kim Brown Here a Host of Check Project with Lycos Eric Rieger Eric Regency and Mojo Guys over There and Overhears Really Talk about Our 20 over Bloating I've Seen in My Practice That I'm Trying to Is a Whole Lot More Than Just a Floating Product Yes It Does a Whole Lot More Than Just Exploding Because of the Polyphenols That You Find Keen on Trying to Get Your Exactly Right the Polyphenols Are Those Molecules That We Find in the Mediterranean Diet It Makes Vegetables and Fruit Very Colorful What Are Some of the Things These Polyphenols Do Eric These Polyphenols Can Actually Stop and Nation Help You Have More Energy Thinking Have You Antiaging and Polyphenols Are Great Athletes It Sounds like It's Your Health: More People Than Just Loading Tell Me How It Is Taking out Front If You Want to Go so 2002 Capsules Three Times A Day Facing Me with You Aren't Bloated and Just Want to Polyphenol Intake Everyday Three Chances of a War for You to Love My Tummy.com/Are You Tired of High Cable TV Rates Sign up for Dish Today and Get a $500 Bonus Offer While Supplies Last Loss Locking Your Price for Two Years Guaranteed Call American – Your Dish Authorized Retailer Now 800-570-6630 800-570-6630 – 800-570-6630 Authors Required Critical Negation 24 Month Commitment Early Termination Fee Any Automakers Friction Supply Call for It Looks like You're Losing I Am I Losing Weight I Am Losing My Lost about 10 Pounds How Are You Doing It Funny Name but I Done It with Review Zone RAD Use Zone.com and the Stuff Works It's Unique It and All That the Molecule Bissonnette Found in That I Can Tell You Is It It so It Makes You Feel Full and He Keeps Your Mind Off of Wanting to Overeat and Also Boost Your Metabolism If You're Done and More Guy Try It Today It's Gonna Work for You like His Work for Brad and Countless Other People Read You Zone.com Are IDUs Zone.com Okay Welcome Back to the Second Half Hour Episode Eight of the Gut Check Project I Married Grigor Joined by Your Host Dr. Kent Brown and Now We Have the Vice President of Marketing Communications at Alexa and All Mr. Chrissy Song Chris Welcome to the Show Thanks for Having Me Absolutely Absolutely Better Radio Voice Than You and I Both Well Yeah Well You Guys Have a Better Face for One of the First Things He Chris Asked Where He Sat down and Said Do You Guys Do One Headphone or Two and Then Can Analogize That We Do We Do to Because We Didn't Know How to Do That so Anyhow I Just a Quick Reset Thank You for Joining the Show Thank You Again for Having Me Actually Catch a Project Is Brought to You by Arch on Teal As Well As KB MD CBD You Can findkbmdcbd@kbmdhealth.com and it just so happens that Chris may happen to know a little bit about KB MD CBD As Well Please Think Our Dialects and the Power Power by Licks and All so Chris You We Are Now in Dallas That's Where Our Studio Is Siam in Dallas Here with You Guys Thanks for Having Me I Grew up in Plano Just down the Road Just I Know That That's Also That's Where I Live Right Now Sam Right on Teakwood Okay All Right in the Middle Was Back When There Was Still Some Farmland in That Region Roads That Were Definitely Not Paved Back That Well While You Have Made Your Journey All the Way to Being a Market Expert but It Was You Got Zero Stress Remember I Was Told about Russ and His Dad yet Will He's Just Call Me Right Here Is Try to Call Him to Let Me Describe a Little Bit about about His Experience Home on Such a Crazy Timing to Rent a Van Fantastic What Will Look at That Set up Well in the Meantime While Were Getting the Call Set up Which This Be Our First Time We've Ever Had Live Taller All for You Chris That's Awesome Though Our Weight Much to Say Go Wildcats for Plano West Guy While Nice Nice Sticky Big Absolutely so from Plano You Are You Hello When You Plan to Graduate High School There No so I Was Born in the Fort Stockton Texas Home Right Now Where Judge Judge Roy Bean the Hanging Judge a Hanging Judge Meant to Write Also the Largest Groundhog Population in Texas That at the Time Did I Know That I Seconds Probably Pretty Pretty Have Been Doing down There but No I Moved to All over Texas with My Dad Is an Engineer for General Electric Okay so We Were All over the Place and Then Moved to California Right and I Graduated College out There and Jumped around All Sorts of Places since Then Is Your Degree in Theology Theology Yeah That's Right This Is Great for What I'm Doing Preaching about Hemp and CBD What May Think That I in All Honesty When You Find That There Is Actually Quite a Bit of Similarity and There's Going to Be A Lot of Congruent Messaging Well There There Is A Lot Of Congruent Messaging and and We Can Get Super Deep on It If You'd like but Overall Community, Theology or CVD Will Get the Loan Both of Them Get Real Deep on Both but That Because I Think Are Highly Connected I Think One of Them I Don't Know How Far You Want to Get into This Right Now but CBD Itself I Think It's Is One of the Main Things in the Unit Can Have Annoyed Systems and Allows All That Better Empathy Sure Which Is What Is Causing so Much Disregard and Disconnection in Our Society Right Now Right and If We Can All Take a Significant Amount of Quality CB and Improve Our Ability For Our Brain to Connect with People and and Not Have Social Anxiety And Connect to People Then Were Going to Actually Build Improve Our Culture and and Not Not Have All These Great Divides so I Would Assume That Probably Whenever You Are Studying Theology That That May Not Have Been Your Attitude Towards CBD or Hemp Products or That Was Even on Your Radar Though My Gosh Cannabis in CBD and Hemp Was Bad Sure You Know the Devils We Write Back Then and That It's Definitely Not Something That I Supported I Told My Kids Said No Don't Do Dumb Stuff Listen to Dad and Don't Do Drugs and Cannabis Was Definitely One of Those Things and I Had to Change My Tune Much Later in Life and My Mom Actually Group Cannabis and Marijuana While She Was Raising Us in Texas and Oklahoma and Back What Was Illegal She Was like One of the Original Member That Was – She Is Original OGE That so and You Know I I Being the Rebellious Teenager Decide I'm to Put Our Three-Piece Suit and Go Learn Religion and You Look down from My Port Perch on People and Obviously I Had to Humble Myself and Admit Mom Was Right the Whole Time That Is so Fascinating I Don't Want to Break the Story Whatsoever but I Think We Have Our First Because This Is Going All Dr. Russell Running San Antonio He Is Patched in And Russ Can Hear Us Morning Man This Is Also My Was That Obvious He Heard the Show This Morning Was Talk about You and Your Dad I Appreciate That That Means A Lot It Does so Russ Whenever You Found out That Your Dad Had ALS When When You Look at the Options That Were on the Table What and in You Being Physician What Did You Think of the Landscape and What Did You Think the Options Would Be For Him and Then Now Looking Back to What What Cans Talking about in Terms of CBD and ALS What I Mean I Lost My Dad You've Lost Your Dad Can Lost His Dad and You Know It's It's No Fun for Anyone Any Always Wish That You Had the Experiences of Technology Later What What Do You Wish You Could Take Back to in Time from What We Learn Now She Mentioned That My Dad Started Get Sick with ALS Back When Can Our Medical School Diseases Just Initiated This Really Is and They're Just Just Seated Man Who Was Pillar of Strength and It Just Wait, Wait Enough and Where They Couldn't Hold a Hammer He Could Climb a Ladder and the Most Devastating Part of That for Us Was When He Studied the Single Ball Ballparks in Ankeny and Carry on a Conversation and Eat Well Anymore Back Then There Was Nothing for Writers One of Those Diseases like Pancreatic Cancer You Got It Sorry I Just Not Then We Can Do and Then I Moved down Here to San Antonio Started Launching Residency and Fellowship and Hooked up with Carding Jackson Was a Neurologist down Here Amazing Woman Who Runs a Big ALS Clinic Here in South Texas and I Started Flying My Dad down Twice a Year and She'd See Him in an Even In Her Clinic It Was the Experimental Things of This Kind of False Hope Was Some Anti-Inflammatories There Wasn't Anything That Worked and There Are Days When It Looked like It May Be a Little Stronger and Days When He Wouldn't Now 15 Years Looking Back You Know That He's Been Gone There's Been so Much Advancement in so Many of These Neurologic Diseases and It's These Natural Types of Things That Seem to Keep Coming up As Potential Cures for This and Have Even Had an Opportunity to Have Him Try Something like This Back Then I Did My Right Arm for Combat and I Would Believe That You Don't Get Back That's I Think When You Talk about Suitable Were What Is Referring to Is the Ability to Swallow the Ability to Form Wet so I Remember When Your Dad Would Come Visit and We Would All Go to Your We Would Gather His Residence Would Go to the Pool And She Would Mumble Words That Only a Wife of 30 Years Could Understand and She Would Translate so He Was Still Completely with It Couldn't Communicate but That Kinda Shows Also the Bond That Husband and Wife Can Have Watching Your Mom Be Able to Understand What Your Dad Was Trying to Say Was Very Touching to All of Us In Talking with Him and That's the Part He Hated the Most You Got Your French Don't You Go out Yes and Cocktails Have a Dinner You Care Phone Conversation When You're like That Friends Don't Want to Hang out with You Anymore Because It's Hard and Embarrassing to to Say I Don't Know What You're Saying so There Were Times When My Dad Loved to Drink Beer I like to Drink Beer I Were Small-Town Nebraska I Would Grow up up There so When He Got to That Point in His Disease And He We Had the Decision to Finally A Peg Tube Feeding Put Two But into His Stomach to Swallow Much Anymore When You Come down Here and I Cannot Would Sit around and We Drink Beer and Dad Would Set Some up in Achieving Stringent Squared Together and It Was Awesome and and One of the Greatest Things I Remember Doing with My Dad Back and When He Got to Where He Couldn't Talk Was I Flew up and Picked Him up and Took Him up to Minnesota Went Fishing and Camping for Weekend We Sat around the Campfire We Just Drank until I Can Really Talk Either Loved It but That's What That Disease Did Nothing We Tried Were I Think That What Were Seeing Now with This Is That We Can Talk on the Mode of How Potentially the End of Cannabinoid System Works in These Neurotransmitters No Rust We Have Christmas Song on the Show Today Is the Marketing Director of Licks and All and He Was Just Tell yet He Was Talking about How His Mom Actually Was The Original OG Is Raising Her She Was Growing Marijuana and He Went to Theology School, Rebelled The Opposite Way like If You Are a Pastor You Really Grow Weed If You're Growing We Bellied Theology School You Find out You Know What You Go Back to the Things Parents. It Worked and It Made Sense Mom Was Right I Long Yeah Yeah I Mean I Joke That All the Time. I Grew up My Dad Was Yellow Country Music and Bud Light Not Solid to Rock 'n' Roll and Drink Out Of Date Now 50 and I Listen to Country Music Drink Bud Light Back Here at That Time That Often Did That Because You Find Those Things Were We Did Know Hey Rossiter – Neurology Practice Are You Incorporating Type of Natural Alternative Anything like That Big and Real High Population of People That Are Educated on the Younger Patient Population That I Have an Initial Internet Savvy and A Lot Of Them Come to Me Already Knowing A Lot about These Things and Having Read A Lot about These Things It's All out There When You Look Which Having Awesome so I Do I Have Acrobatic Doctors That I Work with I Have A Lot Of Patients on CD Oils Not Just for Things like This That Were Talking about but My Miles to Christ in Crohn's Patients with Chronic Nausea Patients My Chronic Pain Patients like Everything It Works for Some and It Does Percent Doesn't. Well I Want to See How It Was with What You Can Find Is That and What I Found Is That Not All CBD Is Created Equal And so with Some Things and so We Have Chris on Right Here and That I I'm Very I Think I Have a Similar Mantra Have A Lot Of Patience to Come into Being There Already Though I'd Artie Tried to Be like My Mom Tried Hemp Oil Which Probably Was Hemp Seed Oil Now That I Think about It in the Will and so It's like All Things You Know Not All Seabees Created Equal That's Working to Get into Today for the Rest of the Show Talk about This How Do You Market That How You Get the Word out That Just Because You Tried This Blanket Term CBD You Know You Gotta Really Make Sure That They Got a Certificate of Analysis and All That so I Want to Do If You Had Patients and It Didn't Work on Listing the Rest of the Show Because It May Be That the Power Dialects All Brand Is What You Really Need That's Exactly What We Need to Hear Some I'm Glad You Get Thanks for Involving Me and Bring Back Member My Dad and Mandalay Castle Being Vulnerable and Talking about That I Think It's Important for You Know I'm the Same Way Love Talk about My Dad It's Been You Many Years Now 30 Years since He Died so I'm Lucky Enough Still Have My Dad but My Fondest Memories Are Him Drinking Coors Light on the Boat Name for Court like Nebraska State Aire's Stepdaughter Russ I Was Met Together and That Means That We We with Some Real Lean Years Were We Were Broke Ass Med Student and Your Dad Will Visit And We Would Purposely Go to Bars with a Wood Offers like Specials like in This Bar It Will and You Don't Medical Whatever I'm Agreed As I Am Still a Bud Light like You Have but You Know Such Such Beers like 50% Was like I Was like Yeah Yeah Johnny Jerilyn $4.55 Dollars to Run I Got My Recall and in This Is Awesome That Your First Call Every Now and Certainly I Deftly Appreciated I Appreciate You Guys and Will Keep with the Man Thanks for All You Do Appreciate It I See Russ Well Chris to Talk about Beer Similar Talk about Boys You Know What I'll Say This I Remember Listening to a Podcast Were One of the Reasons Why Beer May Be so Popular Is Because the Hops and Actually Have a End of – You Have a Cannabinoid -like Molecule so My Understanding Is That That Was All Made up All Really Got Some Some Marketing Guy Used His Powers for Evil Instead of Good and That the Two Companies That Are And It Kinda Leaves What You're Talking about Not All Seabees Made Same Two Companies That Were behind Those Actually Had to Admit That There Was Those Studies Were Completely Phone No Kidding Yeah That Is Fascinating I Was Feeling and Have Chris Consider Just Burst Bubble to Be Dropping Some Truth Bombs Now That's Awesome What We Were Just Wrapping up so You To Get into the Hemp Industry Because Krista Talked about His Trek from from Fort Stockton to Plano out to out to California and Then You Spend a Little Time in Germany Germany Where I Did Learn A Lot about Beer Dealer Lot Is Three and Half Years on the High School There and Going to Prom and Castles and All Sorts of Fun Stuff That's a Little Different Doing for like We Did Were in Plano Where I Would've Would've Done It Sure Sure so Then after School You Then Get into Some Regulatory I Figured out This Beeper and Pager and Wireless Things Can Be a Big Deal so I Started Selling Cell Phones and Pagers and You Know Five Dollar Minute Type Technology in and Got into the Technology World and Got into When Sprint Was in One Market You Can Only Use Her Cell Phone in Fresno Okay and Then the Only Been Growing since Then Moved from There into the Finance World and Helped with A Lot Of Regulatory World and There and Open Market under A Lot Of Rules and Regulations and While I Was There I Met a Guy Who Is Doing Documentary on Campus and He Was Put Together All These Different Case Studies and All These Different Videos and Clips of These People That Have Been Healed by Campus and at That Time I Was like No Bunch of Stoners and You Just Want You with the with the Theology Background You Carry a Bias with These Going into These Other Careers Are More Open-Minded at This Point What Based on My Initial Upbringing by My Mom Who Is Very Open Minded I Was I Was Always Questioning Authority and Questioning Things and through That Entire Process Even Going through Theology School I Was Questioning Everything around Me You Know the Minute That and Again I Don't Know How Deep You Want to Get into Religion Here but the Minute That I Heard about Their Profit Care and Oh How They the Canonization of All of the Books and How They Got into the Bible I Started to Start Questioning A Lot More and You Know They Trying Teach You That the Bible Is 100% the Word of God and Then You Decide to Figure out That Is about 15 White Guys in a Room to Decide Which Books Are in the Bible and You Only but Little Doubt in Your Head Sure I Don't I Don't Know That 15 Guys Can Agree about Anything and Deftly When Trust Something like That That's Guiding so Many People's Lives Divided 15 Guys in Room so It's It's Definitely No Been Something I'm Always Open-Minded and Looking at Things and Questioning Things I'm Click to Decide and Slow to Change My Mind so I See Something That's Right and Usually Jump Right in and Stick with It May Be Too Long and Then Dismantled That up but I Learned My Lesson Sooner or Later Click to Decide Slow to Change My Mind That Is a That Is a Great Line This It's like You Make a Decision but You Don't Have To Make the Right Decision to Make Your Decision Right That A Lot Of Times I Mean We've Already It's That Little Cliché but Sure Enough Perfect Is Sometimes the Enemy of Good Brian and I like to Move Fast and Make the Decisions What I What I Believe in My Gut I Think That If More People Moved That Way Things to Get Done A Lot Faster in Love Things I Think Doubt Self-Doubt Challenges A Lot Of Us and from a Marketer And I like to Empower People to Make the Right Decisions and Given the Right Information That I Learned Early on in My Sales Careers That When People Tell You Know It's It's Primarily Because They Don't Have Enough Information to Say Yes the More Information We Can Give Them the More Education We Can Give Them Then They Can Move Forward So It's Just That Self-Doubt That Little Gut Thing That We Need to Move Them on Let Me Answer Question Measured Market Are One of the Things That I Have Run into with My Colleagues to Coworkers and Things Is That When Somebody Is so Entrenched in Their Belief They Get This Cognitive Dissonance Where It's Almost like There Is a Logical From Then on Transits and Religion Parallels That Tremendously If There's Anything That Has Cognitive Dissonance Is When Somebody Has the Religion and You like Look Just Saying That This Is like You Said It's 15 White Dudes in a Room You Know Maybe It's Not Everything I You Know There's A Lot Of Things I Grew up Catholic so I'm I'm I'm a Recovering Catholic and We Do Know There's There's A Lot Of Things I Look Back on Them like Ha Knows A Lot Of Things Were Really Good about It Right Discipline You Know Learning Empathy Learning These Different Things Learning to Be Held Accountable for What You Do There's Higher Good Buyer Doing All This of the Stall That There's Times That I Took Away from Theology and Take Away from Christianity and Many of the Religions That I've Studied but Absolutely One of the Things That Jesus Did Many Other of the of the Profits They Questioned Authority May Question Things and so It's Really Important That We Teach Our Kids Only Teach People to Question You Know Why Is CBD Bad by Wise Cannabis Bad You Know That Doesn't Make Any Sense and You Know If You Really Want to Get Deep on Some of the the Conspiracy Theories of How This All Got Legally Illegal We Could Get down That Road to Because It Is Crazy Will It Tell You What First of All Is Not All Right Thought Would Be Going off Right into A Lot Of Parallels That with This so What I Want to Ask You Is a Marketer How Do You Was a Marketer Overcome This Cognitive Dissonance so Primarily It's Education Right What What Sit in Front of Me and What Changed My Mind Is Facts I When You Look at Some Kid Or Some Mom or Some Dad That His Life Has Been Changed Because They're Taking CBD on a Regular Basis They Went from Not Being Able to Talk To Being Able to Talk No They Went from 300 Seizures a Day Two No Seizures but Those Type of Things You Can't Deny Right Something Is Working so If You're Able Then to Dig into Why Is That Not like Rafael Mitchell and Started Right He Went to Discover the Why We Get High Right Many Found in a Can-Am Annoyed System and Then He's Figured out There's More Than One Cabinet to New There's A Lot Of People Don't Know Who That Is Identical I've Read A Lot about Him Please Explain Who He Is Sort of the Godfather Godfather in the Can-Am Annoyed System and He's the One That in an Israel Went to Go Does Study Why THC Affects People And He Threw His Studies Found the Indo Cannabinoid System and the CD1 and CB to Receptors and Why We Get High and Started Been Digging into the Plant In Finding That There's Many More Cannabinoids and Found CB Juan and CBN and CBG and All These Things and He's Really the One That It Brought This to the Forefront for Everyone and Only Because Return for Why People Get Hot and Move Forward from There A True Scientist and Also Somebody Who Discovered Something That I Did Learn about Med School No Is 9% of Medical Schools Now Teach about That Night I'm Surprised It's Not Really I Think That's Higher Than What I Would've Said I Would've Said 0% It Said to Me It Still Shocking That Is That Low That It's Ever I Mean I Understand Coming from Medical Field Where You Were Taught about It so That Makes Sense Right but Even 9% of Sure All the Doctors out There How Much Impact Just This One Camp Mind Is Made Can You Imagine If 20% of Our Doctors Knew about How This Mean the Doctors That That I Talk to Every Day You Know They Run the Gamut Summerlike Yes All Day In Summer like Crazy I Lose My License Right and That's the Education Back to What Your Talk about How You Change the Minds What a Link Small Has Done and Work with People like You Is to Make Sure That Those Influencers of the Health and Wellness World Those Health Professionals out There Those Doctors Are Equipped with Education Because There to Make the Biggest Impact You Know I Can Go Sell a Bunch of This Online and All Search Ads up There and Click Send It There but What We've Decided to Is Focused Primarily on Helping Health Professionals to Learn about Our Product Because There Can Make Big Impact in the Community so That I Think That That Is All I'm Sorry about That I Think That's Paul Paul W Are Found When Joy Was Here She Was Describing Your You Paul Gabe Your Etiology Is Not so Much Just to Move Product It's to Educate the World so That This All Become Something Bigger Hundred Percent Hundred Percent Our Founder Paulino Is Pre-Much a Citizen of the World Now He Considers Himself One of Those Guys That That Doesn't Belong Any One Country That Belongs to the All of the World and He's Trying to Make Big Changes CDs Just One of Them You Know He's Been a Hen Pioneer since the 90s Right and Made the Very First Hemp Bar Because It Had so Many Omega-3's and Omega Sixes and Nobody Was Getting Those Essential Fats Right Now You Have To Get Them from Meat Is What They Were Trying so Need to Know You Can Get It from the Plants and You Can Start Getting Those Things Because You Could Lit so Many People Implant Diets Were Deficient And There Is No Reason Because We Had Hemp Constantly When I Met You and Chrissy Feel They Will Affect Two Years Ago I Knew Nothing Was in Two or Three Working up on the Third One Now Is at Three Bad Is Probably through Your Probably Right Because I Give a Lecture Last Year Yes Is Your Go to the Third Value about so What Happened to Me Was I Just Walked by the Booth and I Was Just That Christie Just Said You Discredited Love You Bunches That Happens When Everyone Christie Just Brought Everybody and She Such a Great Evangelist Shoot She Has but It Was Literally It's like I Don't Know What You're Talking about What I Did Your Enthusiasm Send a Case to My Office Area and I Gave Away the Whole Case You Can Take Any Blog I Talk about I Did Well but One Bottle and What I Found Is That I Guess Maybe Got to Get to 24 I Think I Had 22 People Come Back after the Bottle Run out the Big Bottle of 3600 It's I Want More Know It Okay Run Something And I Gave It to I Didn't of Insiders Ate the Cost and Elect Someone to See Unbiased Just Predicate Event Just Tell Me What You Think and a True Scientist but True yet so I Had like 22 of 24 People Come Back to What Okay Were on to Something Now I Need to Start Teaching Myself Now I Need to Really Start Educating Myself And It All Starts with That Starts with Just the Domino Effect And That's What's That's What I'm Doing Right Now Working to Be Talking A Lot about the Actual Science of Stuff and Disease States That I'm Helping Not Claiming But Supporting Supporting Exactly Just so You We Kind of Hit A Lot Of Different Topics Here but Said Some Things That We Can Carry over into the Next Hour That I Think the Listeners Are Really Liking at Your Approach Chris Which Is Basically You Said You'd You Should Become Double Challenging Dogma You and You Really Should If You're Going to Find Something That Doesn't Just Mean Looking at Hemp and Saying I Think It's Taboo but I Need to Find out More about It to See If I Can Change My Mind There's Also Incidents We May Say Hemp Is Everything but I Need to Make Sure That It's Everything That Everybody Says That It Is Absolutely and Then Then We Also Need to Talk about the Environment That Allows Us to Foster This Kind Growth Because There's a Reason If I Remember the Story Correctly That the Discoveries Made in Israel It Wasn't I Wasn't Able Only One Able to Have Those Kinds of Experiments Here to Find Indo Cannabinoid System in a Stateside Because Our Government Prevented That from Happening so the Fact There Were 9% of Med Schools It's Surprising That It's Grown That Much of the Same Time It Should Be Hundred Percent so We Can Get into Some Really Deep Topics in Terms of How Do We Carry This Message Forward How Do We Make It Available to More People How We Present the Facts of the People Know That You're Not Selling Them Snake Oil That You're Not Telling That You Know It It Fixes Broken Bones and Lowers Your Gas Bill Because It Doesn't Do Those Things Really Get Bored but Actually I Think Fixing Broken Bones Lowering Gas-Filled FDA and FTC Has No Problem with Those Claims but It Is That You and I Could Probably Make a Correlation to the Lower Gospel If I Wanted Regulator System Brings a Homeostasis You Don't Need to Turn up the Heater Comes to the Practical Application of a CBD Is Really Where Your Expertise Is Because You've Made This Journey Right You Made This Journey of I Don't Believe in It to This Is Incredible I Gotta Spread This News in the Right Way to Do so Would You Are Much More Well-Rounded Than I Was Anticipating This Is Really Cool You Got One of the Things You Get a Very Calm Nature but I Would Have This Nervous Energy about My Gosh I'm Sitting on This Just Amazing Thing Wire but As Everybody Get It But You Seem Very Meth Methodical about It I Should Say Well I Have I Do Have What Is Known As Very Laid-Back Nature People Been Thinking I Was High My Whole Life When I Want to Buy Weed from Me When I Didn't Have It so It's Just in My Nature but Absolutely I'm Very Thoughtful about How We Communicate This Because It's Important You Know There Is A Lot Of Weight To What Were Doing This Is a You Know Even Bigger Than the Internet Boom in the 90s and Skin to Change A Lot Of Things Now If You Think about It CBD And Him Could Replace the Entire Johnson & Johnson Catalog So That Hits on Something That We Can Deftly Take the Next Hour to Think That That the Listeners Have Got to Email about It Already That Specifically Want to Know How Can We Put Facts and Research behind Were Going to Do in the Next Hour We Can Deftly Talk about What It Is That a Medical Practitioner Can Do What It Is That a Consumer Can Do What Is in Allied Health Professional Can Do so They Can Better Spread The Message to Allow People That Are Suffering or Just Sibley Want to Improve Their Quality of Life and Him and Him Products to To Their Rather Daily Routine to See If They Can Basically Get a Better Balance so Homeostasis Homeostasis Act about Getting Back in Balance Well That Is Going to Wrap up This First Half-Hour with Chris He Saw Will Be Back Here about Four and Half Minutes Thank You Seems to This Is the Only 24 Hour Take Anywhere Platforms Dedicated to Food and Fun Clear Spoony If Our Townhall.com, or VP Biden 20th Democrat to Announce His Candidacy for the Parties Residential Nominating Widens One of the Most Recognizable Names in Politics the Most Experienced Candidate in This Field and at 76 Seats Second Oldest Face Questions about Whether His Age and More Moderate Record Are Out Of Touch with the Democratic Party Featuring the Younger and More Liberal Contenders Correspondence Agar Magali American University Political Science Professor James Thurber Says If He Hopes to Win Biden Will Have To Find a Way to Connect with Younger Voters He's Really Running against His Own Record to a Certain Age and He Has To Persuade a New Generation That He's Got the Right Ideas Help America and Them President from Writing on Twitter This Morning Welcome to the Race Sleepy Joe Russian Pres. Putin Says She'll Be Briefing Both Beijing and Washington on His Summit with North Korean Leader Kim Jong June Says Cam Expresses a Willingness to Give up His Nuclear Weapons If He Can Secure an Ironclad Security Guarantee First A Woman and Her Two Young Children Died on the Family Car Was Caught up in Floodwaters Rolling Plains of West Texas about 75 Miles Southwest of Fort Worth Storm Prediction Center Meteorologist Matt Mosher Says One of 21 to 2 Inches of Rain Is Falling in West Texas Although Some Areas Did See a Bit More Not That Normal Rainfall Amount over It Adds up over over Dating Week so It's Been a Pretty Wet Winter In That Area and so That's What Caused The Flooding Issues to Homes in the City Hall Office of Baltimore Mayor Catherine Pugh Been Rated by FBI and IRS Agents No Word on Exactly What They're Looking for Stocks Are Mixed on Wall Street This Morning Right Now the Dow down Sharply It's off 203 Points on the NASDAQ Is up 38 Points One of the stories@townhall.com 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Airline Tickets Flight to Date Alignment Harassment to Read or Anywhere Else You Want to Go and Pay A Lot Less Guarantee Quality International Travel Department Right Now Low-Cost Airlines 800 452 1075 800-452-1075 That's 800-452-1075 Okay Welcome Back Project Is Going to Be in Second Hour of Episode Number Eight I Married Grigor Join with Your Host Ken Brown Ducked Him around after All Just Here in Dallas or Plano Texas As Well As Song the Vice President of Marketing and Communication for Election All Will That Last Half-Hour Was Very Light Very in Writing Those Funds All Inroads Lead to the Truth but Everything Good Starts with a Peer Conversation of Beer in God Patient While I Have for All of Our Listeners If You Ever Listen to the Spinning Network Which Is the Host Network of Gut Check Project Be Sure and Check out Mojo 50.com and You Can Also Find the Morse Code Brenda Morse Hosts a Great Show on Their It Starts Every Day 1 PM Eastern That Is Brandon Morse of the Morse Code You Just Talk to Brandon Not Even 20 Seconds Ago in the Hallways You Return Back to the Shed I Did and I Was on Their Show This Morning at Say What Whatever He Is on I Want That Energy Just Truckloads of Energy He Does Tons of Writing Is a Copywriters Got Several Shows That Guy's Got a Good Beard Punishing My M&Ms Right Yeah Yeah I've Been You Know What I Got Beard and Good for Everybody I Think I'm on to 1/2 Years Growing This One Right Now in the Is All I Can Do I Went down to Skin Yesterday Does Not Back up What I'm Really 40 Years and One More Mention Here in Our Live at Reduced Going to Be KB MD CBD Minima Right Works for the Company Licks and All the Powers This and There's a Reason behind That the KB MD CBD You Can Find a KPMG Health.com Is Physician Recommended by the Physician and Sit across the Table for Me Right Now So We Can Get into Some Really Neat Topics in Terms of the CBD with This Man to My Right Mr. Chris Her Song and We Just Finished the Last Half Hour Talking about Essentially Finding the Truth and It Doesn't Have To Be All One Direction or All Another Direction It's Okay to Question Even Your Own Your Own New Revelations in Terms of What You Think of Him or What You Think Driving a Car Everything Should Always Be Open for Question Would You Say Chris Yeah I Think I Think Absolutely That to You to Find Your Truth and and Search for and Find out What Works for You I Mean We Were Just Talking Earlier How You When You First Met Us Got 24 Bottles of Our Product 22 People Came Back to Get It A Couple People Cited Didn't Report Being CBD Itself High-Quality CBD Is an Amazing Product I Think Everybody Should Be Taken Every Day but Some People Decide That You Don't Not Work for Them and That's That's Okay Well It's Really Interesting Because One of Things We Talked about Though Let's Get into from a Marketing Standpoint We Purposely Our Brochure What I Wanted to Address Was a Couple Things That My Patients Always Talk about Number One Why Did I Get Involved with That Number Two What Is Your and a Cannabinoid System Get Back in Balance One of the Things He Can Help and More Importantly Which Is My Favorite Panel Here Is Why Is the Powered by Alexa and All Brand Different from Other Brands That's in There Is so Many Good Reasons to to Work with Alex on Work Find a Quality CBD and There's Other Quality CD Companies out There but I Say I'm Partial to Alexa Now but It Is Important That You Know You're Mine and That's the Truth for Just about Everybody Mean I Became Vegan about Two Years Ago and Note the Reason I Did That Was A Lot Of the Same Reasons That You Guys of Been Talk about Your Fathers in Your Your Your Parents Is I Looked at My Dad and I Looked at My Mom and I Said I Don't Have Healthy Genes I Make a Change and in a Questioning What's Going on but I Needed to Make a Change in That's White and That's I Got into the Hemp Industry and I Need to Make a Change so I Had to Do Some Health Conversations and What That Did for Me It Got Me More Connected to What I Eat But I Get More Connected to What I Put My Body so I Look at the Labels Right I Look at What's Going on That's Why to Begin I Absolutely Think That That's What You Need to Do You Doing When You're Looking at CBD Where Did It Come from Who Made It Now Is It Organic What Country Did It Come from Doesn't Have a Certificate of Analysis Can You See That It's Clean Mean We Get to the Point Where Were Controlling the Grow Where We Control the Water Rights We Know Where the Water Came around Really so We Go Way All the Way down to Temps an Amazing Plant Right Yeah It It Basically Filters the Soil It Actually Is Good for the Environment but Let's Start from the Very Beginning Here so This This KB MD Health CBD Tell Me Where This Came from So Beginning to End so It Came Out Of Your Hair It Came Out Of Your Head Right. That's Right Then and What We Found Is You Coming to Us and Just Going Hey This Is Amazing This Is Working for RFR My Patients Is Working for My Client And I Need To Be Able to Provided in a Form Factor That Fits Your Protocols and We Were Just Excited about Beating to Partner with You on That Because We Want to Be Able to like We Talked about Earlier Is Educate People Right and You're Doing Such a Phenomenal Job of Educating People How to Better Run Their Lives and Heal Their Lives and Give Their Body Information to Heal Itself And What We Really Love Is That That CBD That You Work on Is Our 3600 Format It and We Been Using That Formulation for a Long Time and You You Put Some Formulation Changes to It That the Size Form Factor and Allowed It to Even Be Better and We Love That That Model We Go to Trade Shows All the Time Going to One This Week Pay the Effects Will Go to Autism One We Go You Guys Are Doing Autism 10 Yeah We Go Every Year Fantastic We Love Is Only I've Got Just for You so in the Future with Probably One Is Autism Autism Is Mid-May Mid-May Fortune Will Be Able to Do the Surgery A Lot Of Travel Coming up but Let Me Tell You What Working to Be Publishing Probably the Most Comprehensive and Scientific Review It Geeks Out I Mean to a Level That I Have To I Mean I'm Trying to Figure out How to Make It a Little Bit Easier but You Almost Can't Dance to the Point Where It's like You Need This Science That's the to Show the Most Educated Group of People That I Go and See Most of the Time Is Autism Group Right It's It Scientist Date Those Moms and Those Parents That Are Dealing with That Are More Educator and Cannabis and Diet and and Looking at the Details of What I'm Putting in My Body Than Anybody That I've Met and As Such and More Interesting No Group of People and What's My Favorite Part Is They Won't Let Us Leave Right We Get There Early We Leave Late Every Day Because They're Just Coming up and Saying I Need This Is Working for Me I Need This Is Working for Me What I Guess Was Two Weeks Ago When I Brought up the so like I Said Every Single Show We Do Some Sort of Science And One of the Articles That I Brought up Was Out Of Israel Where They Actually Looked at the Ananda Biden to AG Level Specifically Nana Might Be the One That's Always There Which Is an Endo Cannabinoid and They Showed In Autism Spectrum Disorder Almost Unequivocally Their Lower So the Deck Stacked against Him Right There You Need to Raise It up to Get Them to This Point so It's Almost like It Is a Essential Nutrient If You Are on the Autism Spectrum Disorder so I'm Very Passionate about That Myself Yeah and and I Am to Have in It It's Very Similar to Some of the

Today we go toe to toe with an army of left handed warriors, explore the legendary pirate island of Libertatia, and finally take a trip to Crater Lake and investigate monster sightings and a bizarre death!   Scientists will investigate anything. Case in point: Scientist did a study if left handed people were better fighters. What did they find out? And are they RIGHT? Then we go to Libertatia, the pirate paradise. Was there really a city where every man ruled and slaves lived free? Or is it just a charming tale of old? And finally, we look at Crater Lake. It’s a beautiful blue deep and peaceful lake in the wilderness of Oregon. Is it simply an amazing natural wonder or does it hide an evil past?   Help Promote Dead Rabbit!   Dual Flyer https://i.imgur.com/OhuoI2v.jpg   "As Above" Flyer  https://i.imgur.com/yobMtUp.jpg   Left-handers win in hand-to-hand combat https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6773-left-handers-win-in-hand-to-hand-combat/   Libertatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertatia   Libertalia - The Pirate Utopia http://thepirateempire.blogspot.com/2017/12/as-i-have-mentionedbefore-golden-age.html   Did the Utopian Pirate Nation of Libertatia Ever Really Exist? https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/did-the-utopian-pirate-nation-of-libertatia-ever-really-exist   More Than A Few Ghost Stories Swirl About Crater Lake National Park https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2009/10/more-few-ghost-stories-swirl-about-crater-lake-national-park4821   The Mysterious Deaths of Crater Lake National Park https://thatoregonlife.com/2015/07/the-mysterious-deaths-of-crater-lake-national-park/   Crater Lake, Oregon http://www.sacred-destinations.com/usa/crater-lake   Quest for “Lost Cabin Gold Mine” led to 12,000-acre jewel http://www.offbeatoregon.com/1207b-crater-lake-discovered-by-legendary-gold-mine-seekers.html   Creepy Crater Lake, Oregon: Exploring the Legends, Lost Gold, and a History of Mystery http://weekinweird.com/2013/03/14/creepy-crater-lake-legends-lost-gold-history-mystery/   Listen to the daily podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts!   ------------------------------------------------   Logo Art By Ash Black   "As Above" Art By Grant Scott   Opening Song: "Atlantis Attacks" Closing Song: "Bella Royale" Music By Dr. Huxxxtable   http://www.DeadRabbit.com Email: DeadRabbitRadio@gmail.com Twitter: @JasonOCarpenter Facebook: www.Facebook.com/DeadRabbitRadio   Paranormal, Conspiracy, and True Crime news as it happens! Jason Carpenter breaks the stories they'll be talking about tomorrow, assuming the world doesn't end today.   All Contents Of This Podcast Copyright Jason Carpenter 2018  

What's going on everybody, hey I want to welcome you to another episode of learning from the experts and I am super stoked about this one today. I actually have an expert on here with me... So here's the deal. I know how frustrating it is as an entrepreneur to waste countless hours sifting through wanna-be experts who never actually helped me in the end. Then to learn years later that there was an expert who really could help me 100 times faster than learning on my own. I have created this podcast to save you time and money while taking you on a journey with me as I learned from an interview real experts who can actually help you grow your business. My name is Coulton Woods and you're listening to Learning From The Experts. Let's go ahead and get started. I want to introduce you to Marie Larson. I've known Marie for almost a year now. It's kind of crazy times flying. Marie Larson is a podcasting expert. She has her own agency. She knows the stuff. If you want to publish, if you need to get your name out there, if you need to blow up your podcast, this is the girl that you need to talk to you. And obviously she's related to Steve Larson, so you know she's a killer and she makes stuff happen for you. She was actually behind Steve's podcast, for quite a while from the beginning stages until it was just massive. And then he had all these other people that do more niche down stuff, anyway, but she was behind it and helped him blow up that podcast. So if you guys need your podcast blown up. She's the woman. So obviously Marie, my listeners don't really know who you are. So I'm going to tell us a little bit about yourself. How'd you get started in this? What's your story? What's up everyone. My name is Marie Larsen. Funny story, as Coulton was saying, I met him about a year ago at funnel hacking live and when I showed up to funnel hacking live this past year in 2018, I was like the poorest of poor kids, right? I had no money to my name. In fact, I left funnel hacking live with $78 to my name. With that being said, I also had a coaching program that was $22,000 that I had to pay off in a year. I had school to pay for and of course the day to day living circumstances as well, so I was pretty much in a pickle, and I had to figure out really quickly what I was supposed to be doing. Now my brother Steven, he's a Rockstar. If you guys have not heard of or know who Steve Larsen is, be sure to check him out. Kids a Rockstar. I'm not just saying that because I'm biased, but he really is super good at what he does. So Stephen reached out to me when I had gotten home from serving a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints. And when I got home, I wanted to be a dentist my whole life Coulton. Here's the funny thing. I wanted to be a dentist, really, really bad. But I got home and I realized that my mom had sat down and she pulled out a list. She was like, here are the people you're gonna have to talk to you. Here's the stuff that you're going to have to do. Here's the date you're going to go into a huge list of stuff. Right? And I freaked out and I looked at that list and I was like, holy crap. I have no desire to go through and actually do that and to go and do the same thing every single day for the rest of my life. Now I love my dentist, thank you to my dentist. But I realized it was not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. As I was sitting there talking to my brother Steven and my dad, they looked at me and said, Marie, we don't want to tell you how to live your life, but you should look into business. And I was like, business? That's so stupid. Like, who does business that's so dumb. And they both kind of chuckled. Both my dad and Steven are pretty known within their industries. Anyway, I started studying it out and as Stephen was walking away one day, he was like, oh, by the way, while you were gone for those that past year and a half, there's this thing called clickfunnels that happened, and you should check it out. So I was like, all right man, whatever, if you want me to sell kitchenware, I guess I'll do that, you know, he was like, it's not kitchen where it's a software. And I was like whatever. Right. So I had started studying out business. I went to funnel hacking live. I had no money, coaching that I had to pay for essentially, really, really quickly with not a lot of money to my name and I promised myself that I would not pull out or go into debt over this at all. That was a big deal for me. So I really buckled down hard and started going into podcasts even more. Now I had done Stephen's podcast for a really, really long time and it was really fun. We had thought of ideas and strategies and things that we could do together and stuff like that. But it was just Kinda my side Gig, you know, a little hustle. It really wasn't helping me too much. It was helping me get by with groceries pretty much. That was exactly what I was doing. And I realized that I wanted to figure out how I can make more money off of this. I realized that there was a very profitable way to go about it. As I was doing this with Stephen, I realize that you can make a ton of money off of a podcast if you actually went about it the right way. But the biggest thing is that Stephen and I realized that as we were doing the podcast that he was getting a lot of face right, that people are starting to see him on Facebook, on Instagram, on twitter, on Spotify, on YouTube. And it was going all over the place. It was all over and his face was getting all over the place and people in his audience started to grow and it was slow and steady and it kept growing and it kept growing and we we're freaking out. I remember when we hit our first year, I don't know, I was like our first 20,000 downloads and we were freaking out. We're like, holy crap we did it. We're in the clear and now he's done hundreds of thousands of downloads for his stuff. But the first time that that happened, it was a big deal for us. So push come to shove, I realized that there was a lot that I could be doing with podcasting in order to grow these influencers in an authentic way where people can go through and find their value and use it within their own businesses. So finding out those, those influencers, those people who are just born to do that, they were there, they're crucial to find and there are a lot of them that don't know that they have this voice inside of them that is ready to explode out. But publishing consistently and really getting your voice out there a lot. So in a long sentence, Coulton, to answer your question like seven minutes ago, I started doing podcasting. I'm out of a mode of survival for sure. That's actually really interesting. Something that I've realized or noticed about entrepreneurs. First off, whenever we get into the corporate world or the nine to five, our soul just kind of gets eaten away. It just sucks the soul out of us. I was in the corporate world for a little bit and I remember every day I felt like I was dying more and more. That's just the way it is. So for us entrepreneurs, it's like we have a message or something that we have to take out to the world and we just have to get it out there. That's awesome that you're helping them get it out there as much as possible. One thing you said is Steve is everywhere now. How is that possible for Steve to be everywhere yet be working a job at click funnels? That was not just a nine to five job. He was working quite a bit there. How is it possible that he was even doing that? Steve’s not a normal kid. We'll just put that out there and if he listens to this, he'll just laugh at that, but I'm going to say Stephen was not working a nine to five. He was working nine to five by waking up at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, doing as much as he could beforehand due to his nine to five. Then come home with his family for an hour or two and then work until like 1:00 in the morning. And that was his grind. That was his hustle. So he was pretty much working to nine to five jobs, just not directly 9 to 5. Totally. I know Steven's, well obviously you work with them, that dude, he can work. He's the man. So it makes sense. So I wrote down a question, how do you get people's value out of them? How do you get their voice when you do a podcast? What's the most important part of doing a podcast? Like how do you, how do you make them so that they can be relatable? So people want to listen to them. People want to follow them. Is that something that we can talk about? I will tell you first things first guys do not be the individual that tries to get into podcasting or a YouTube, channel or a Facebook group or start building out something that does it for a month, see that there's not that many results and then give up. The key is being consistent. Steven, we didn't see a ton of results until probably this past six months or so with his podcast as it was like a year and a half of consistent publishing before it exploded to the point where Steven's doing super well. But that means, I mean as we were publishing for him two to three times a week, sometimes four. It just really depended. But the more that we could push out the content and overdeliver and show people that he wasn't going anywhere, that it wasn't just on a whim decision, that he was going to do it, that he was going to be consistent, that he was going to do it, and that people could know that if they wanted the information or content from him, that he was the person to go to. Right. That if they wanted information about funnels, he would be the one that they would go to first. For sure. Now a lot of people will get really upset because they'll get three episodes in and say, 30 downloads. That stinks. And I'll just kind of laugh and say, no, that's normal. That's incredible actually, and you get that. That's awesome. I'm so happy for you. If you are a nobody with no following or anything like that, then you probably have your mom and your sister listening to your podcast and that's it. Right? But you need to go through and really push out and over deliver a ton. A lot of people, as I said before, get really frustrated after a couple episodes, then they'll get to episode 13 or so. Don't give up. If you guys have ever heard Mark Stern or anyone like that within the funnel industry, he always raves about the rule of 30, right? And I have this rule that when you get to episode 30, that's when your downloads actually start to double down. And the reason for that being is that if you can go through and consistently published at least twice a week for and get up to 30 episodes, then people see that you're not going anywhere. And I'll give you an example. Um, economics, right? If you’re the type that’s into podcasts, on your podcasting app on iTunes or whatever, apple podcasts on your phone, and type in the word “economics”, there are going to be hundreds of different podcasts that show up there. So many that will show, but the first one you'll see is one called freakenomics. And then the other ones you'll see are one’s that's done two episodes, one that's done six episodes when that's done, maybe like 15. And then you'll see freakonomics, which has done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of episodes. Now, from my perspective as a person who's jumping on and really does not know that much about economics, I will jump on and I will look and say, oh great. This one show called freakonomics has hundreds of episodes. This other one that's called economics for people who have no idea what economics even means, has two episodes on it. Which one am I going to listen to you more? Right? Which one am I actually going to listen to? I’ll listen to that one has hundreds and hundreds of episodes on it because I know that I will be creating a relationship with those speakers that I don't want to listen to someone that only has two episodes down. I'm not going to waste my time to go through and actually publish or listened to those two episodes as much unless I know the people. I'm not going to go through and establish a relationship with those individuals because they're not worth my time. Because I know that they're not going to be consistent with me, so why should I be consistent with them? So that's a huge thing that I see, especially within the podcasting industry that people give up so quick. If you look at Alex Charfen, Russell Brunson, Steve Larsen, you look at all these people who have hundreds and hundreds of episodes that are high quality, that are good, that have amazing content and value. Of course I'm going to go through and listen to their stuff. Of course those people I'm going to choose over, you know, some kid in his basement that has two episodes on his podcast. I'm not going to go establish a relationship with that person when I know that there is someone over here who is actually trying to provide content and value for me. Hopefully that makes sense. Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much for that. I think that totally makes sense. Lots of people, and I've noticed this too, they do start out, they get something going and then it's like I'm not really seeing any return on investment on it and then they give up. But what I think is so awesome about podcasting too is you do it once and it's out there and you don't have to re-record it all the time. Russell Brunson, Alex Charfen, those guys have hundreds of episodes and people can listen to them whenever they want. They're always there. I love that part about it. Also to add in there, is that Russell often says, and it's one of my big things, is that “stories sell, facts tell”. Right? When he says that, guys, if you go listen to any of the best podcasters out there, you know the top ten and you'll go through and you'll start looking through them and you'll listen to them and it was in the first little bit. You'll realize that they go through a pretty common structure, right? I was like that weird kid that really loved English and would rather write a 20 page paper then go through and take a test. Right. And so I really understand that structure is really, really important and so when I would go through it and research and figure out these podcasts, I was realizing that their structure was pretty common and similar and with that being said, what happened is that they will go through and they would establish two principles, right? On average they have at least two principles within a podcast or they hit one to two principals or topics and then after that then they have an average of two to three stories per topic. Right? And so each story is there to sell the topic more than just the topic itself. Right. And I'll give you an example of that as well. In my origin story, right? I was going through and telling you, well I wanted to be a dentist, but actually I realized I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life. There were so many of you that were probably like, man, I realized there was a time that I was trying to do something that I didn't want to do and Coulton himself even jumped on this podcast and said I was in corporate for a little bit and that killed me. There are so many people that are related to that and instantly because of that one topic, we all relate to it and our different aspects. Now, of course, our stories are not all the same, but the stories are relatable enough where it's going to sell even more. It's going to sell the topic more. This topic of, oh my gosh, I can't do nine to five. Yeah. There's this one time that Coulton did nine to five and it sucks. There's this time that Steven did nine to five and it sucked. There was this time that Maria did nine to five and it sucks, and it's like, well, by the time you build out all these cases for this one point, we're going to sell that way faster than if someone just said don't do Nine to five it sucks. Yeah. I guess there's no nine to five psych because Coulton has experienced it, Maria's experienced it, Steven has experienced so many of these people who have experiences with it. That's what's going to sell the actual topic, not just the topic itself. Man, that is awesome guys. That is gold right there. If you were listening to that, you need to go back and re-listen to it because that is gold right there. You'll notice a lot of interviews, even I started out asking about your story, like you were just saying, a lot of interviews are that way because that is how everybody starts relating to you. And then you keep listening. And then they want it. They're like, oh, I relate so well to this person. I'm going to have to keep listening. It's funny because Steve Talks about starting your podcast and how you have to have your origin story as your first podcast. So I did it on mine. Hopefully it was good, but that's totally what I did on mine. And just so I can help my listeners understand who I am and build a little bit of a credibility with them. That's cool you help people do that with podcasts as well. I've actually had a few podcasts just before this about changing customer's beliefs and I don’t know about you, but I think podcasts are such a great way for you to change the beliefs of your customers or to help them understand that maybe the beliefs that they currently have may not be meeting their needs completely. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like, about helping people just kill it on their podcasts and blown them up that way? Yep. So as far as going on that, excuse me, sorry, Just so you guys know, Marie did like four or five interviews yesterday. So she's um, I'm kind of pushing her a little bit more today to give me one more interview. So she's has to throw in a cough drop real quick. I can't even imagine. Things that I've seen with customers and how a podcast can affect that guy's beliefs are a great way to do customer research and I know that sounds really funny, but what I love about podcasting is there are so many reasons, but you can go through and take that content and push it out like crazy, right? And repurpose it and take it and get transcriptions and then go through and build out blog posts and then we go on Facebook and Instagram posts and all these different things. Um, and then by going through your stats, if you have any sort of social media stats, you can see what's converting really well. I will tell you as well. Some little trick and tip that I use is that I go through and within the industries that I'm researching for, whether it's mine or for a client or something like that. Topics that are converting really well already. Go through and talk about those. Right? And so I'll go and I'll jump into other industries and I'll see what blog posts for them are converting really well. I'll go see what topics are converting really well, what podcasts are converting really well, which episodes are doing super, super well. As soon as you can figure that out and see what people are already looking for and go do podcast episodes about that, that's going to spike like crazy. That's going to help your downloads like crazy because people are already researched it for those. That's awesome that you do that for your customers. I'm sure that is huge. They probably just love you for that. Now you mentioned that it went to different platforms. Can I just ask a quick question? How many platforms do you usually push to for a podcast episode? Like how many can you even push to? I think it was for one of my clients in the past but we got him up to 27 different platforms. There was a lot that. I was using everything for it, from WordPress to Spotify to iHeart radio. Google play too, you name it, we had it on that platform. And so even now there are times where I'll go through and I'll hear someone say, yeah, there's this new platform coming out and it's called this or that. I'll be like, I can get that out, get a podcast on that platform right now, no matter what it is, I'm always trying to figure out how to get stuff onto platforms. And the reason for that being is that people are really, really concise and I guess consistent I should say with their social media platforms, right? Like I'm an Instagram and Facebook user or like I hate twitter, I hate LinkedIn, I like all those things, but I go through and I push Publish to them because it's not about what I like, it’s what my customers like. It's what people are going to listen to, you know, their desired platform. Right. So that being said, you need to make sure that you are publishing to as many different platforms as humanly possible. If you can go through and push them out to all these different platforms, you’ll boost up the seo to all of them. Right? Then all of a sudden you are going through it and you were creating opportunity for people to find you, to share your stuff, to comment on your stuff, to go through and really hype it up for you rather than you go through and publish to one place. Right. iTunes to this day is the number one podcasting platform, right, and it will be, but there are people who choose to listen on anchor and other people would choose to listen on Libsyn and other people will choose to listen on Spotify and so that being said, you have to have your stuff on all these different platforms. You can find customers that way. It will be your most loyal people, whatever it is, but they're not going to go try and find you. You have to provide the opportunity where they can find it easily. Right? Yeah, totally. Thank you so much for sharing that. I wanted to point that out because I don't think people realize the power that comes behind that and how you can click a button and all of these platforms instantly have your podcast or your episode, your content. I think that's so powerful. The whole thing with marketing and with a good business in general is that you make it as painless of a process as humanly possible. Right? Like you can't have it be this big thing where if you go through and you know, do this and this and then jumped through hoops this way or that way, people are gonna give up by the time you asked them to move their right finger. Right. And so they're not going to go jump through hoops to find your stuff. I myself have gone through the process of where I wanted to go and purchase something and just because it was a hard process I gave up and went and bought it somewhere else. And so I have to make my processes, my availability, as easy as possible for people so they can find me and that I'm easy to find and people can purchase from me easily. That is huge. That is so huge. Thank you so much Marie. I just want to say I've actually learned a lot from you myself, even with the podcast and stuff. I follow you on your Facebook group. I follow your podcast as well, which if you guys aren't following her, you should jump on and start listening to her. And I really wanted to get you on here because I wanted to help business owners, entrepreneurs, to know the power of podcasting and what it can do for them. And what's so cool is you take it like they can literally just record their voice, their episode, give it to you and you just make it happen and make it go everywhere. That's so cool. I like that. Sorry, did you have a comment on that? No, it's way fun. I love it. I love being able to get their stuff ang go through edit and make sure that it sounds good. And then add intro’s and outros and all these little things and then after that I want it to be on as many different platforms as we possibly can find that podcast can be on. Yeah. So she is the expert at this. She can tell you what you need to do with the best equipment, like the mic’s, everything. She knows where it's happening. So if you guys are looking at getting any kind of content out there, podcasting, I would 100% suggest you talk to Marie because she can make it happen for you. Mad respect for you and what I think is really cool too about you is you pushed through and made this happen. I love your story. I was there at funnel hacking live with you and I remember you going and signing up for the coaching program and you were like, I don't know how I'm gonna make this happen. Look at you now. This is awesome. I think that just goes to show what it can do for you if you push through and you make things happen. You don't give up. Not without a lot of temptation to give up, that's for sure. There were many times where I reached out to my brother Stephen or Steve or whatever people call him and I said, man, I think I'm done. Like I don't want to do this anymore. This is really hard. And he looked at me and said, well Marie, what else are you going to do? You know, like lean in and you know, if you weren't going to do this, what else would you do? And I said, I don't know. And he was like, you go back to a nine to five, that's what you do. And I was like, crap, you're right. Dang it, I'm not going to do that. And he's like, alright, well then lean in and make it work, Marie. And so I am a 22 year old college kid who has thousands of dollars of coaching under her belt. So cool. Not from school as well, but you know, I have learned so much in this last little bit. It's been life changing. Extremely hard, you know, I'm trying to balance everything from homework to client work and there comes moments where I'm like, shoot, I have a 20 page paper due tonight, or I have client work that's due tonight. Which one do I do? The client of course. But I have figured out little hacks to go through and do my homework. And if I get kicked out for this, I'm sorry, but pretty much what I do is that I'll go through and I'll take my microphone, my podcasting mic. I'll go through and read a few topics that I have to talk about in my paper and I'll go through and I'll record for 30 minutes straight and then I will get a transcription of it and then I will take that transcription and turn it in my paper. Something that takes people two and a half weeks to write. It takes me two and a half hours. So yeah, not probably the best thing, but you know, I'm just trying to be smart about it. No. Yeah. You know what's funny is I was actually telling my wife the other day, I was like, holy cow, I just did a 4,000 word podcast in like 30 minutes and that would have taken me forever in school. Right. I'm not the best writer. I hated writing. I was not an English guy. I was totally not good at that stuff, but I just did like a 4,500 word podcast that ended up turning into a transcription. I totally could have done that for like papers back in college. Oh yeah. I wish I would've known that hack back then, but that's so cool. I just, I am amazed at your story and I think it's super cool. I think back about my college days and not having any money. I had to figure out something to do and that's when I started my repair business. I don't know if you even knew that, but that got me through school. It's funny, like if you look through a lot of entreprenuers they find something they enjoy, they do it and then they become an expert in it and then they started selling their services in that area for being an expert and then they are just killing it. And then becoming an expert for the people. Yes, exactly. And defining the problem as well as you can. Yeah. Well, awesome Marie, that was awesome. Thank you so much for that. Are there any other, as Steve Larsen likes to say it, “truth nukes” that you want to drop for us today? Um, one last truth nuke, I will put out there for listeners, if you guys are looking to start a podcast, there are several things that you need to get started, one being a good graphic, right? And I can refer you to my graphic designer or to someone else that you might have. That's fine too. So that's really important. You need a hosting service, you're going to also need an intro and outro. Now there are podcasts out there that don't have intro’s and Outro’s and that's fine. However, on the ones that convert really well, I actually have a call to action placed within them, right? And so your intro should have steps that go through and explain who you are and, and kind of like your credibility stance on everything and then you should go through and make sure that you have established some sort of curiosity, some sort of question, right? As you have established a goal and said, hey, join me as I established a seven figure business or something like that. And people are gonna be like, Oh wow. Well, how's she going to do accomplish that? And people are wondering how is she going to do it, right? Literally to ask the question for them because people are going to jump on and they're going to say, who is this person? Why am I listening to them? Should I turn them off? Should I keep listening to them? That happens within the first couple of seconds? So if you answer all those questions for them, then they'll keep listening to you, right? Because they're intrigued on how the heck you're building or how you're going out and building out a business, how you're going about building it, you know, different aspects of your industry and then make sure as well in your outro that you go through and you ask people to rate and subscribe. And if you don't ask your people, they're not going to do it. So ask your people, rate and subscribe. And then the other thing is to have some sort of call to action. You want me to speak in your mastermind? Go to example.com. Do you want a free tee shirt? Go to examplecom. Do you have another question for the podcast? Go to the Facebook group. Did it end up right and go there and really make sure that you have places where you can direct people. If you're not directing your people then you just have a nice podcast, but if you can go and have a place where you're actually providing an opportunity for people to go somewhere, then you actually just might make some money off of it. So yeah, that's pretty awesome. Well, speaking to that, you guys, I'm going to have her on LearningFromTheExperts.com She will be one of the experts that will be listed there so you can go and kind of find out a little bit more about her services, but other than that Marie, where can people find you? What's the best place? Yeah. The best place to find me is probably my Facebook group, which is called profitable podcasting strategies for entrepreneurs. I know it's a mouthful, but definitely getting those SEO words in there but check me out there or Facebook in general or Instagram as well and I can shoot those over to you guys. I'm sure Coulton has a place to put all of that. Yeah. And that'd be awesome. And what's your podcast name again? Is it the Audio Expert? Entrepreneur? The audio entrepreneur? I mean the industry of Russell Brunson, everything is experts. So I just assumed it was the audio expert, you know what I mean? Yep. The audio entrepreneur. That's right. Awesome. Thank you so much Marie for being on here and look forward to people getting to know you a little bit more and just killing it with their podcast, through your service. So thank you so much for being on. Thank you so much Coulton. It was a real pleasure. I really appreciate it. Are you looking to jumpstart your business by learning or getting help from the real experts? Go to LearningFromTheExperts.com to find pre-approved experts that I've hand picked for you. Please don't forget to let me know how I'm doing by subscribing, rating, and leaving feedback.  

Here’s what Peter and Jay have for you this time (all time locations are without the opening ad): Puzzle Hockey: (00:00 - 6:25) Jay has found a new way to waste time when he should be recording our podcast. Season Standouts: (6:25 - 25:16) Who are off to a great start, and how sustainable are they? Note: When discussing Carolina, I should have been more specific and used the term “shot attempts” as opposed to “shots,” because that might be confusing for some listeners. Interview: (25:16 - 57:18) This episode, our interview is with Sean McIndoe, aka Down Goes Brown. He has a new book coming out that you can pre-order on Amazon. We talk about some of the craziest things that have happened in the NHL. Way Too Early Predictions: (57:18 - END) Since teams have played about 8 games each, we obviously know enough to completely and accurately predict everything that will happen the rest of the way. Right? Then, we wrap up the show. Here is the link to our merchandise store. You can get Fer Sure t-shirts in a variety of colors and styles, hoodies, notebooks, stickers, and much more. As I say in the episode, we are donating our portion of money our store earns to the Concussion Legacy Foundation through the end of November. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the last episode of Build, we debunked a number of myths related to bitcoin, blockchain, and other cryptocurrencies.   Despite all the myths and hype these technologies have staying power in the market. But we get that you might be skeptical. So we’re dedicating today’s episode to showcasing how they are being incorporated into valuable applications that are making an impact in the market.   And if you’re still concerned about the volatility behind cryptocurrencies or how to get involved without losing your shirt, we’ll dive deeper into each of those topics.   Our guest, Audrey Chaing is back. You’ll recall Audrey is a crypto trader as well as a Blockchain analyst and consultant, and blogs on Blockchaing.     Here’s what you’ll learn from today’s episode:   How Bitcoin, Blockchain, and Cryptocurrency Are Being Applied To Financial Services, Identity, and Supply Chain What Is An ICO (Initial Coin Offering) What Causes Volatility In Bitcoin And Other Cryptocurrencies What Are Cryptocurrency And Bitcoin Exchanges And Marketplaces What Are The Up And Coming Business Applications For Blockchain Transactions How Blockchain Is Being Used To Monitor Identity How To Get Involved In Learning, Building, and Investing In Blockchain -- Build is produced as a partnership between Femgineer and Pivotal Tracker. San Francisco video production by StartMotionMEDIA. -- # How Bitcoin, Blockchain And Cryptocurrencies Are Being Incorporated Into Valuable Applications That Are Making An Impact In The Market Transcript                     Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     In the previous episode, we debunked a number of myths related to Bitcoin, blockchain, and cryptocurrencies. If you missed that episode, I've included a link to it below. In today's episode, we're going to dive a little bit deeper and talk about some of the cool applications that have come out of Bitcoin, blockchain, and cryptocurrencies and let you know which ones are here to stay and how you can get involved. Stay tuned. Welcome to *Build*, brought to you by Pivotal Tracker. I'm your host, Poornima Vijayashanker. In each episode, innovators and I debunk a number of myths and misconceptions related to building products, companies, and your career in tech. In today's episode, Audrey Chaing is back. You'll recall that Audrey is a crypto trader, as well as an analyst and consultant. Thanks for coming back, Audrey.   Audrey Chaing:                Thank you.   Bitcoin, Blockchain, and Cryptocurrency Applications: Financial Services, Identity, and Supply Chain   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Yeah. Today, we're going to talk about some pretty cool applications of Bitcoin, blockchain, and cryptocurrencies, and why they're here to stay, and how our audience can get involved. Let's kind of dive right in. Let's talk about, what are some of the applications of each of these?   Audrey Chaing:                Sure. To be honest, everyone's still trying to figure out the killer use case, but there's a lot of really exciting work happening. They tend to fall into kind of three buckets. One is financial services, which we are kind of more familiar with, with the cryptocurrencies and things like that, cross-order payments, remittances. Another area is identity, and another area is supply chain, and so—   What Is An ICO (Initial Coin Offering)?   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Let's start with the financial services. I know there's a lot of ICOs, initial coin offerings. What are those?   Audrey Chaing:                Yes, initial coin offering, that's basically how a new cryptocurrency comes into existence. I mean, it's almost a new way to fund a startup that is related to blockchain. They could be doing any number of things. An example could be, "We're doing distributed storage, so then in order to buy and pay for services, you have to use our token coin." Yeah.   What Causes Volatility In Bitcoin And Other Cryptocurrencies?   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Got it. What's causing a lot of the volatility now in the market then, as it relates back to these ICOs?   Audrey Chaing:                A lot of it is, frankly, just speculation, because people have heard of how much money that some others have made in cryptocurrencies, and people are interested because they want to make a quick buck. Right?   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Yeah.   Audrey Chaing:                Also, for the people who are less familiar, there tend to be different stages of a sale in an ICO. You would get kind of in-the-know institutional investors that would come in on the early rounds and get a very large discount. Then they might have several rounds of sales, and then by the time you reach the crowd sale, they might also have a tiered, "If you get in now, you get a larger discount. Wait till next week, you still get a discount, but it's smaller," and so—   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     So it is very much like fundraising—   Audrey Chaing:                It is, yeah.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     ...from like venture capitalists or angel investors.   Audrey Chaing:                Now, the difference is that you get liquidity a lot faster. If your token ends up getting listed on exchanges, that means you can start trading right away. Sometimes there are kind of lockups for the large institutional investors, but that is one big difference.   What Are Cryptocurrency And Bitcoin Exchanges And Marketplaces?   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Yeah. Actually, let's dive into that. There are a lot of other applications in the financial services, like what you just mentioned, exchanges and marketplaces. What exactly are these? Walk us through.   Audrey Chaing:                Yeah, sure. Actually, just to clarify, too, ICOs, the tokens could be in any number of industries. It doesn't have to actually relate to financial services. Some of the more straight financial services use cases might be...There's something called Coins.ph. It's in the Philippines. A lot of Philippine workers work internationally, remit money back to their homeland. This actually is interesting, because it brings on a lot of the unbanked population, so there's...In order to participate in our current banking system, you need to have a minimum amount of deposits in order for it to even be worthwhile for the bank to have you, and a lot of people don't have that. Now, with crypto, integrated with our current banking system, you can use the Coins.ph app to send money to friends, and they could go to an ATM and pick up cash, or just the corner store, pick up cash. You can pay for your tuition that way, your cell phone bill, all sorts of things.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Very cool.   Audrey Chaing:                There's also, there are traditional ways of sending money around, which is Western Union, wire transfer, which tend to be slow and relatively costly, but now with crypto, it can happen a lot faster and a lot cheaper.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Got it.   Audrey Chaing:                Those are kind of the financial use cases, but you asked about exchanges. There are many. A lot of the reason that there are so many is because there are so many coins, and not every exchange will have all of the coins you want to trade. Most people in the U.S. would be familiar with Coinbase. I think they have a pretty good brand name, and pretty on top of their regulation, their...It's easy to use. However, they only trade four different coins, so if you want a coin that is not one of the four that Coinbase has, what you have to do is put your fiat, or your U.S. dollars, into Coinbase by some either Bitcoin or Ethereum. Identify what other coin you want. Let's say you want Monero. Right? Then you have to find which of the exchanges has Monero, send your Bitcoin over to that one, and then buy your Monero that way.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     In the previous episode, you started to hint at some business applications for blockchain. Not the cryptocurrencies, but just the underlying technology. Why are people using this for business?   Business Applications For Blockchain Transactions   Audrey Chaing:                I guess going back to the kind of large categories, we already talked about financial services a bit, but let's talk about supply chain for a second. Right? There are some very interesting proof of concepts going on. I can talk about a couple. One is with prescription medication. You can basically track that it is legitimate, right, it's not like a fake or copy, and then you can make sure that, say, it needs to be refrigerated, that it was taken care of the whole way through.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     How do you, how can you tell that?   Audrey Chaing:                Kind of like, well, you could kind of use sensors to say that, "OK, the temperature never reached above X amount that would make the medication bad." You could, kind of like how you already scan along the way, say, a FedEx package, you could track all these different stages and have them write to the blockchain.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     OK, got it.   Audrey Chaing:                Then since it's on the blockchain, you can't go back and edit the database. Right?   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Right, so basically, it's stuck there, and then people can see the audit trail because it's on-   Audrey Chaing:                Yeah.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     ...blockchain.   Audrey Chaing:                Exactly. Another interesting use in supply chain is provenance for food. For example, if you are eating bacon and you are interested in, "Where did this pig come from?" All the way from which farm, what it was fed, how it was...The whole process of how it reaches you, you can now track that.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Very cool. How does somebody then get onto the blockchain to have the entire supply chain and each of these transactions listed? Audrey Chaing:                Yeah, so blockchain, in the traditional sense, is a public blockchain, so you, or I, or anyone could go onto Blockchain.info, for instance, and look up any Bitcoin wallet or Bitcoin transaction. There is this idea of permission ledgers, which, especially, some enterprise are looking into because they don't want everyone to have access to everything, but in the traditional sense anyone can look it up.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Yeah, but then it's only as good as the reporting, right?   Audrey Chaing:                Yes. There is this kind of...When you try to mesh the real world with the digital world, how do I know, "So-and-so is attesting that this is true. Well, is that legitimate?" Then, so that is something we definitely need to think about when we try to kind of mix the digital and the real world.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Got it, yeah, so going back to your bacon example, if somebody forgets, maybe in the packaging stage or one stage before that, to list a transaction, what happened, then the public isn't going to know what that is, so there is going to be still a hole in it.   Audrey Chaing:                Yeah, so these are the things that are being kind of worked out right now, with all of the kind of proof-of-concept work and research.   How Blockchain Is Being Used To Monitor Identity   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Very cool. What's another application that you think is here to stay for blockchain?   Audrey Chaing:                Identity is another area where there's a lot of work, a lot of interest, kind of how it could look like in the end. Right? You could have full control over your data. For instance, if you had your medical data here, your social media data here, your shopping data here, you could say, "I want to grant you this particular piece of information," and you can even decide to be compensated for it or not. That's kind of the self-sovereign identity piece. There's already some work happening in this area in governments, even. The government of Finland, they have this blockchain-enabled card for refugees. This card will be an identity card, but also, they load it with money, so that's one interesting use case. Estonia now has e-citizenship, so there's a lot of interesting stuff going on.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     I know one concern that our audience may have is, which of these things are fads? Which of these things are here to stay? It sounds like some of the things that are more groundbreaking, like identity and supply chain, are here to stay, but can we really know?   Audrey Chaing:                Yeah. Actually, we can't. That's a good warning for anyone trading crypto or getting to blockchain is that there's a lot of potential. It's very exciting. However, there are some real technological hurdles, including scalability. That's the largest one. There are a lot of smart people working on it, including like off-chain solutions, but we won't know for sure. Yeah, I would say if you're going to invest, I think it's smart to have something, but don't put in more than you would be OK losing, because that is a possibility. You could completely lose it all.   How To Get Involved In Learning, Building, and Investing In Blockchain   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Yeah, and in terms of investing and learning about applications of blockchain, or getting involved in building something on the blockchain, what would you recommend?   Audrey Chaing:                Well, I guess there are a lot of choices, but not a whole lot of great resources, to be honest, so you have to decide kind of like what kind of do you want to build on an existing chain? Do you want to build your own? I mean, building your own is quite a undertaking, but people have done it. I think the best way would be just start. There's no, it's very, not a whole lot of documentation, not a whole lot of tutorials. There are meetups all over, so I'm actually a part of Oakland Blockchain Developers and SF Ethereum Developers. They have people come in and do technical talks and sometimes code labs. That really helps, but it's very, it's not fun to work with yet.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Yeah.   Audrey Chaing:                Right?   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     OK.   Audrey Chaing:                It's very early, and-   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     So not for the faint of heart, but maybe for those—   Audrey Chaing:                Yeah.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     ...who want to get in, eager—   Audrey Chaing:                And it changes very quickly. I mean, even if you're looking at Solidity, which is what a lot of people use for Ethereum, the syntax changes frequently.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Yeah. Well, that also might also be a good thing, so for people who are eager to always be at the cutting edge—   Audrey Chaing:                Yes. It's definitely-   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     ...and want to be involved.   Audrey Chaing:                ...cutting edge. You know what's shocking is, sometimes I talk to people, and I'm like, "Yeah, I've written a smart contract in Ethereum," and people are like, "Oh, my God," so just like this is crazy that this is like a thing, but it's so early that not very many people have done that.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Audrey, for sharing all your expertise when it comes to Bitcoin, blockchain, as well as cryptocurrencies.   Audrey Chaing:                Thank you for having me.   Poornima Vijayashanker.:                     Yeah. That's it for today's episode of *Build*. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel to receive the next episode. Ciao for now. This episode of *Build* is brought to you by our main sponsor, Pivotal Tracker.  

In this episode of Building Infinite Red, Jamon, Ken, and Todd touch on the fears, anxieties, and struggles of running a business. They share stories and thoughts on starting a business, managing stress, how success and failure impact focus, the difference between venture capital and other sources of funding, fear of missing out, and the importance of knowing what you stand for. Show Links & Resources YNAB: Personal budgeting software Four Yorkshiremen by Monty Python Episode Transcript TODD WERTH: So I thought a good topic today, one of the reasons because I'm personally interested actually, hear what Jamon has to say and Ken has to say, and of course I'm sure they're interested to hear what I have to say. But the topic is when you start a new business or you're an entrepreneur doing multiple businesses, or anything of that particular area. What are some of the biggest fears, anxieties, apprehensions, that you might have you know before the process, during the process, whenever? I find this very fascinating, because I imagine a lot of people, well maybe some people who are listening are experiencing these right now and A) it'd be great to hear someone else express the same thing so they know that they're not alone in this, and B) it's kind of interesting to think about yourself. It kind of, it's not something you typically sit down and think about, so if you two don't mind, that'd be a really interesting subject for today. KEN MILLER: Sounds good. JAMON HOLMGREN: Yeah. Well I think back to when I started by business. It was 2005, and I was working for a home builder at the time, so I had a, you know, decent job. It was an office job. I was doing I think cad design and marketing for this builder. Not really doing programming. But I decided that one of the things that ... well I had, prior to this time, I had thought, you know I'd be really nice to own my own business at some point. It'd be something that I would aspire to. And I think that part of that was my dad owning his own business and knowing a lot of entrepreneurs kind of played into that. I thought it would be an interesting thing. I've always been a little bit independent. Want to kind of set my own course. So I started thinking about doing this and talking with my wife, and at the time I had a six month old baby. That was my first kid, my son, who is now 13 years old. Around actually this time of year is when I decided that I was going to do this. What helped was an opportunity that came up. So the apprehension of how do I get my first customer was sort of already taken care of. My uncle had a bunch of work that he needed done, and he asked me if I wanted to do it kind of on the side, or as a business, and that gave me the confidence to pull the trigger and say, let's so this. Because I had a built-in customer right away. But I do remember the first month sending my bill over to him, and it was only eleven hundred dollars, and that was all I had earned that whole month was eleven hundred dollars. And that was a wake up call to me that, hey I can't just expect the money to come in, and that was definitely ... I sat up and noticed. TODD: Yeah, that's really interesting. So when you started ClearSight, that was your first company, correct? At that time? JAMON: That's right. Yeah, ClearSight. There were other points along the way where I was sort of I got kind of gut-punched. Many times along the way. One was when ... my first business was doing websites, but it was also doing CAD designs, so I had essentially two business, and the CAD design part of it, you know designing homes, designing remodels, those sort of things eventually dried up, because remember that was during 2008, 2009 the housing recession kind of came along and that impacted the designers first, because we were the first ones in the process. People stopped taking money, equity out of their homes to do remodels. They just stopped doing it. So basically the whole market dried up. I remember my uncle told me, "I don't have any work to send you anymore." And I had a few accounts myself, but they were pretty slow too. And I kind of sat at home for a few days and felt sorry for myself. But in typical Jamon fashion, I was like, well I guess it's time to go do this myself, so I went out and literally started knocking on doors at offices and stuff and handing out my business card. Wasn't too successful at that, but it was at least doing something, and then things turned around eventually. TODD: Since you had a new baby at home, and obviously you're married, and you're trying to support them. JAMON: Right. TODD: Did that add any worry to you at that time? JAMON: Yeah, for sure. It certainly did, because any worry that my wife felt was reflected back on me because I feel very a sense of responsibility that I need to be making sure that we're not losing our house. Making sure that we can keep food on the table, things like that. So that was a lot to process. My health definitely suffered because of it and a few other things, but there was a lot of stress involved with that. I think that if I were to go back now, knowing what I know now, I could very much have probably pulled out of it much faster. I could have found a better path, but you live and learn. TODD: I'm sure there's more to tell about that story, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts Ken. KEN: For me the biggest worry was always money. Right? I mean, since I came out here to Silicon Valley, I had the dream. I had the Silicon Valley dream for sure. I wanted to start my own company. And to a certain degree, the Silicon Valley dream as sold is not sold accurately. Right? It's sold as this sort of fantasy. And the truth of the matter is you have to have more resources than is reputed in order to do the Silicon Valley way effectively. You need to know VCs or people who know them. It helps to have affluent parents who can bankroll you not making any money for years and years and years. I'm luckier than most on all of those accounts, and even I found that very intimidating, challenging. And especially living in the Bay Area, once you have established a life in the Bay Area, the idea of not taking a salary for a couple of years is utterly terrifying if you don't have a big pile of money. In fact, I wasn't really able to do this until I had a little bit of a windfall from the Yammer acquisition to lean on. Basically just enough to let me barely scrape by for a year for which I'm still very grateful 'cause I probably wouldn't be here today if I hadn't had that. And there were some scary fricking moments. There've definitely been a few extremely close calls financially. So I don't ... that fear I think was justified and surmountable. Let me put it that way. Right? You can definitely figure that one out, but I'm not gonna lie. It can be super scary sometimes. For me, the biggest mental shift that got me where I am now is that I had always had in my head this sort of venture capital model, because that's what I knew. Right? Because that's the kind of company I'd worked for. I saw how that process basically worked. But it always felt wrong to me. Right? Like, I was always like, what's so wrong with profit? What's so wrong with actually making a business that can support itself fairly early on? And I think it was the Paul Graham post that was like, the difference between a start up and a small business. And a start up is specifically optimized for hundred S growth or nothing. JAMON: Right. KEN: And that's what venture capitalists want for the most part. Right? No venture capitalist wants you to be one of the nine or ninety-nine that don't make it. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: Nevertheless, the model is set up that way. The model is set up so that only one in ten or less have to make it. And so once I realized, oh no all along I wanted to make the lifestyle business, basically, the small business. TODD: I just wanted to point out that especially in Silicon Valley the term lifestyle business is a semi-derogatory term. KEN: Pejorative, yeah. TODD: Yeah to refer to a normal, actual business. KEN: Exactly. TODD: And I always found that amusing when they said lifestyle business it was insulting you, because you make a profit. I always thought that was funny. KEN: Yeah, right. It's sort of like the Silicon Valley model is for people who would rather be a billionaire or nothing. Right? It's kinda like a shot at a billionaire is worth way more to them then a pretty good path to a millionaire. Once I realized that that was the exact opposite of me, I was much happier and I could actually work towards something that mattered. Right? And not even the millionaire part, right? It's like, if that happens, that would be awesome, but it's more creating the environment that I wished that I'd had. JAMON: When it comes to fears and those types of feelings, do you ever feel maybe that you are missing out on those wild rides? KEN: Do I have FOMO for the- JAMON: Yeah, a little bit of FOMO. KEN: Sometimes. JAMON: FOMO being, of course, fear of missing out. KEN: Yeah, living here especially. I think that's inevitable. JAMON: Right. Because we're not set up for just rocket growth at Infinite Red. KEN: I've been at enough companies that ended up making everybody thousandaires or worse. Right? Or negative thousandaires in at least one case. I had a friend, he seemed like he was living the dream. This was way back when in the first boom. Right? He seemed like he'd lived the dream. Right? He was just an engineer at a start up and he was suddenly a millionaire overnight. And then within six month, he was a negative six hundred thousandaire with a gigantic tax bill. JAMON: Oof. KEN: The whole model has kind of lured a bunch of people into the stock option thing. This is what I'm talking about specifically. I think there is absolutely a place for the venture capital model, but the stock option compensation model that a lot of people have done, is kind of a raw deal in a lot of ways, but that'd be a whole other topic, so- JAMON: Yes TODD: Just real quick, I own tons of stock and stock options that are worth absolutely zero- KEN: Yes. TODD: But, if I ever run out of toilet paper, I am set. JAMON: So Todd, you started a business well before Ken or I, and you know I actually I don't know if I've ever heard the story of your very first business and how you went from being a software engineer at a company to owning your own business, and I'd like to hear about that from the perspective of the topic of this episode which is about fears, and uncertainty and things like that. TODD: Yeah. Yeah. That's great question, so I've owned three businesses. This hopefully is my last one here at Infinite Red. My first one was in 1999. We started, it was three of us, it was also a consulting company like Infinite Red which lasted for nine years. It was a little bit different. Real quick, we did mainly enterprise, not start ups, larger companies, that kind of stuff. And our model was kind of to be subcontractors. So we had a lot of relationships with other consulting companies. One of the things we did, is we did really hard things well. So all the other consulting companies, like especially at that time it's gonna sound funny, but you'd have companies coming to us saying, "Look, we're doing most of the project, but they want something on the web, and we have no idea how to do that." And we did. And we knew Visual C++ and we knew all sorts of things. And so we specialize. We were higher priced because of that, and we'd come in and do the fun parts, in our opinion, which was really great. This is circa 1999. That one wasn't ... there wasn't too much anxiety from it. It was a small company, so later I'll talk about most of my anxiety at Infinite Red come from my worry of the 25 families I'm responsible for. JAMON: Right. TODD: It's not so much myself, because I do not have affluent parents. Well, most of my relatives are dead now, but I never really worried about money. I mean worst case scenario, I can be a developer. I'm pretty darn good developer, and I can make good money at that. And I moved out of the Bay Area, so for me my lifestyle is much cheaper than it used to be. So I don't worry about that so much, but I do worry about everyone's families who work at Infinite Red. My first company, we didn't have that. It was all just high level people. There was three to six of us, depending on the time. And we kind of just slipped into it. We had our first few big customers before we even started. So that wasn't really stressful at all. The second company, which came after my first company, I went back and worked for companies, for other start ups as an employee, and that's how I met Ken. Ken was my boss. And I was doing that mainly just 'cause after nine years running your company, I was just kind of tired, and I wanted to be an employee for a while. And I did that for about three, three and half years. And Ken, sorry boss, it was super relaxing, easy. You work like seven and a half hours a day or whatever. KEN: This has been noted on your permanent file. TODD: You know, regular jobs often are pretty lax compared to start ups. As an aside, I was in a pizza parlor once, and I saw a sign behind the wall. It was obviously the pizza parlor was owned by a person, it wasn't a chain, and the sign said, the only thing more overrated then running your own business is pregnancy. Which is true, if you do it for low hours and high pay, you really should rethink that, but there are lots of great reasons to do it. Any who, my second company was venture capital backed company which means we didn't use our own money. It was intentionally designed to do the hockey stick which means go from zero to very high very fast, and we had investors. And we had to pitch to venture capitalists and angel investors, and we had all the kind of normal Silicon Valley stuff. And that lasted for about a year and a half, and I cherish that experience, because it taught me a lot about that process from the inside. It was completely a failure which is fine. The fears in that, once again, were not personal, because as I did right after that, I went and got a job with Ken. JAMON: Right. TODD: And I made plenty of personal money. And because we weren't investing our money, the VCs were, there really wasn't a lot of anxiety there. I would say the main anxiety there was performance. Meaning it's kind of depressing when you're failing, and sometimes you have a great success. We did one month, especially. And we were shooting to the moon for a whole month, and it was super exciting. So it was just kind of a roller coaster of anxiety for that kind of business. Yeah, Jamon? JAMON: I think it's really interesting to hear you and Ken talk about the idea of, well I can just go get a job as a developer. Because for the longest time, I didn't feel that I had that option. Whether that was reality or not, I don't know. I was basically, I kind of thought of myself as just building websites. I just built websites for people, and I didn't really think of myself as a software engineer. I just happen to be someone that happened to built websites. TODD: Knowing you Jamon, and the quality of engineer you are, you are completely wrong. You could have totally got a job, but I get why- JAMON: Yeah. TODD: -from your perspective you felt that way. KEN: Yeah, well and it's a matter of ... it highlights how important just knowing the scene is. JAMON: Right. Yeah, totally. KEN: If you know the scene, yeah if you're an engineer, even like an old rusty engineer, like we're going to be before too long. TODD: Too late, Ken. KEN: Right. JAMON: Too soon and too late. KEN: Even if you're an old rusty engineer, you can figure it out. Right? JAMON: Right, yeah. KEN: The demand is so overwhelming and so consistent and so pervasive that- JAMON: Yeah. KEN: -if you know sort of the ins and outs- TODD: Even you Jamon could get a job is what you're saying. JAMON: Even I could get a job. KEN: No, if you're half-way competent, and he's more than half-way competent, about 60 percent. JAMON: I appreciate it. KEN: No, it's- JAMON: 60 percent. Yeah. No, and to hear that now. It's something that is obviously more of an option now that I don't need it, but at the time it didn't feel like an option, and so especially when I started getting employees in 2009. And most of them were young. They didn't have much in the way of family, but they would obviously still have ... they needed jobs, and I felt that. I felt that in every part of me that if the business wasn't doing well, that I was failing them. And that actually drove me for a long time. I think if I'd had the option to go work for someone, or felt I had the option to go work for someone, I may have actually quit at some point. But I didn't. I kept the course there. KEN: I will say, that I'm glad that I did not know everything that I should be afraid of going into it. 'Cause there is plenty that you should be afraid of, and if I'd known all that stuff going in, I probably wouldn't have done it, and I'm glad that I did it. And if I had to redo it now, I would do it again. JAMON: Right. KEN: And that's an important distinction is that it's not that I would do it again, it's that only hearing the bad stuff at that point, would have been a disaster. TODD: Ignorance and hubris are the two best tools of the entrepreneur. JAMON: I feel like it's both more stressful and more scary than you think, but also you're more resourceful and more able to deal with it then you think. KEN: Yes. TODD: Hundred percent. I would say, talking to other people who are new to it, and I certainly had to learn this, the biggest problem is the buck stops here. Meaning in every other situation where you worked, you could always throw a problem up the ladder. JAMON: Yes. TODD: And when you're a small business person, you don't know accounting? Doesn't matter. Do it. JAMON: Someone's gotta do the accounting. TODD: Right, like there's literally no excuse. There's none, and you don't have that money just to pay for people to do it. KEN: I guarantee the IRS does not grade on a curve. TODD: No, they don't care about your excuses. KEN: Yeah. TODD: So Jamon, Ken, and I come from very different places. So Ken obviously went to Harvard. He's impressive on paper. I actually did not. I didn't finish college. I started making way too much money as a programmer to be honest. But when I first started out in 1996 as a professional programmer, you know I wasn't making tons of money, but it was plenty for me, because where I'm from, it's a lot of money. And at that time, I'd probably be more like Jamon meaning I didn't see myself as really deserving that kind of stuff, but this was in San Francisco in 1996. So I saw the first boom, and then I saw the crash, and then I saw the second boom. And after a while, you start to learn, although I don't have Ken's personal background. I do have Ken's professional background. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Yep. TODD: And so, one of the things I've noticed when talking to Jamon, because he's in Vancouver, Washington, and not around that stuff as much, is he feels a little bit like an imposter. He's totally not. And I bet even now in his mind he imagines that those people working at Google somehow have this huge, amazing, genius to them, and Ken's probably in the middle. He probably thinks some of them do. I personally have yet to meet one of these fabled geniuses. So the more you get involved with that, the more you realize they're just humans, and you're just as good as they are. KEN: That is true. JAMON: I think that's been something that I've become more and more aware of over the past several years. And it's funny because I don't usually think of myself as having imposter syndrome. I'm actually quite a confident guy, but in that regard I definitely did not really realize ... it felt like they were a different breed. They were a different type of person. And I always felt like I could probably learn anything, but there was still this degree of separation. But, anyway, coming back to the topic at hand, I think that sort of uncertainty and fear can be a motivating factor. But one of the things, so one of the things I'd like to talk about, is there are healthy ways and unhealthy ways to handle that stress, and I've done them all. Believe me. TODD: Like cocaine? JAMON: Maybe. TODD: Jamon's mother, he's totally joking. He's never done cocaine. JAMON: Yes, thank you Todd. And my mom does listen to this, so thanks Todd. TODD: He really has not, trust me. JAMON: You wouldn't want to see me on cocaine. KEN: Oh god. Yeah, that is the wrong drug for you my friend. JAMON: Yes. KEN: Oof. JAMON: But you don't want to transfer stress to clients. You don't want to transfer stress to employees. You don't want to transfer it to your significant other. To your family. And unfortunately, I've done all of those things, because I'm human and that's what happens. You get a lot of stress, and then you feel like you need to let off steam. One of the things that I actually really appreciated about this partnership is that we're able to let off steam with each other. And in a way, that is healthy. That isn't transferring to someone else who has nothing to do with it or has no power. Where I have two partners who are actually in the same spot, and they can help. It's been really, really helpful. So that is really important. I think how you transfer stress. Yeah, Todd? TODD: I agree. I don't kick the dog. I kick Ken. Which is better. The dog appreciates it at least. JAMON: You don't even have a dog, Todd. TODD: I don't have a dog, and I've never kick a dog by the way. I'd kick humans all day long, but never a dog. JAMON: This is true. TODD: Just to be clear. JAMON: Yes, Todd is the one who canceled a meeting because he had to bring a bird to the hospital that had hit his door, actually one time. TODD: It's true. It is true, and that bird is flapping happily today. KEN: As far as you know. TODD: I hope. Back to my story, because it's all about me. Anxiety at Infinite Red really does come around to team members mostly, and you two Ken and Jamon because I don't want to let you down, and I certainly don't want someone's family not to be able to have a Christmas because of something stupid I did, or because I was acting emotionally when I should have been acting rationally. That kind of stuff. JAMON: This year, me not having Christmas had nothing to do with you Todd, so I can let you know that. TODD: Jamon's house was burglarized and burnt down. Not burnt down, but set afire on Christmas Eve. KEN: Torched. TODD: So, if you're feeling good about humanity up to this point, now you can feel bad about it. So, there you go, but they're back in their house. KEN: You're welcome. TODD: Everything's good. JAMON: Yes. TODD: You're back in your house. Everything's good, and he has a wonderful family, and all is well. JAMON: Yeah, it's really nice to be back. Anyway, I cut you off. TODD: But so that's a lot of my anxieties about it. At my age, I'm 46, and I've done this a long time. I don't stress as often. Like I used to get very stressed out doing sales calls or that kind of stuff. I've done all that stuff enough where it doesn't really bother me too much. Even tough things where you have to be really tough with the client, or vendor, or something like that. It doesn't, I mean it bothers me temporarily of course you get the adrenaline going and no one likes that. But it's really the things that give me anxiety and up at night is if I make a mistake that will cause us not to be able to pay payroll. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: Now, one note. We've always paid payroll. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: But that is something- KEN: There's been some close calls. TODD: That is something that- KEN: Yeah. TODD: That makes me work harder, and it makes me worry. Me, personally, I could figure it out, it's not as big of a deal to me. KEN: Well, I think also a big stressor that I didn't ... it makes sense in retrospect, but it wasn't one that like occurred to me, is how hard it is to maintain focus over time- JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative) TODD: Yeah. KEN: -when you don't have a boss doing that for you. I was a small scale boss at my previous jobs, but this experience definitely makes me want to write a nice little note of apology to every boss I've ever had. Like, however bad they were, I have more sort of sympathy for what they were dealing with then I did before. TODD: That's so true. KEN: Yeah, and the surprising thing is how hard it is to cope with success. When you're doing well, that's when the monster of de-focusing really starts to rear its head. It's like driving a car fast. If you've never driven a car at 150 miles an hour, it's a different thing from driving it at 60 miles an hour. It takes a little getting used to that state, oh things are going well, but that doesn't mean that I get to take my eyes off the road. TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: So. CHRIS MARTIN: Can you guys go in a little deeper on how you manage some of these things? 'Cause you've talked about having the feelings of stress and fear, but maybe some of the ways that you manage it, a part from kicking Ken. KEN: That's Todd's favorite. TODD: Well, Ken mentioned that success can be hard to deal with, and I have a tried and true technique I've used for many years with dealing with the problems of success. And here it is. And I'll share it with you. I normally would charge for this advice, but I'm gonna share. Don't be successful. There you go. KEN: Yeah. TODD: You're welcome. KEN: That one we're still figuring out. Having co-founders you actually trust is probably the number one. TODD: Yeah, it's hard to do, and at one time in my career I said I would never ever had a partner or a co-founder again. And here we are, so. JAMON: I think getting together in person is important. Of course, we're a remote company. So I'm up here near Portland, and Ken's in the Bay Area, and Todd's in Vegas, but we did get together a couple weeks ago to talk. And there was a stressful situation going on, and that was something that we went through together in person. TODD: Well, we also hang out in zoom a lot. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: Every week. And that's similar. But, yeah having good co-founders who are your friends, and you become almost married at a point, because when you're in business together it is like a marriage, and you know everyone's finances. You know if someone's spouse is having problems with the way the company's working. You have to deal with that- JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- TODD: -at least as an auxiliary person in that particular thing. So it's a very intimate thing for sure. I definitely choose that very, very, very wisely. I've had bad experiences, and of course I've had great experiences here. JAMON: I think that one of the things that we actually do fairly well is we will say when we're stressed. You know, we'll say, "Hey, I am currently feeling a high degree of stress." And then the other co-founders can say, "Okay, what is causing this." And we can talk about it more objectively. And just saying it out loud sometimes is a way to kind of like let go of it a little bit. TODD: We also know how to fight which takes a while. That's a hard one to learn. JAMON: It is. TODD: But we've learned how to fight. Yell at each other, and know that afterwards we're going to be okay, and that's important. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: The trust that you would gain with a girlfriend or boyfriend or your spouse- KEN: Sibling TODD: -where you can have an emotional throw up as it were and know that you're still gonna be loved as it were. KEN: Well, and also it's sort of on the focusing issue, actually. It's relevant there too which is that I'm pretty ADD I would say. I think that's probably pretty common I would say for entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurship is one place where you can actually challenge your ADD tendencies. However, I also know it's like, "Hey guys, I'm having some trouble focusing and motivating on x, y, and z- JAMON: Right. KEN: -can I have help with knowing that there's not going to be any judgment coming along- JAMON: Right. KEN: -with that help?" JAMON: Right. Yeah. TODD: To be clear, it's all not roses. Sometimes one of us gets irritated with the other person because of these issues and- JAMON: Right. TODD: -but ultimately once we get talking to it, we're not super human. Sometimes I get irritated with Jamon or Ken and vice versa. But the whole point is, when you get to the end of that, you're supportive. JAMON: Another really important thing is to have some really core principles. Some kind of tent poles so-to-speak that you can come back to. One of the things that we really strongly believe is that the core of us three is one of the most important things about this company. And so we can come back to that. I mean, if the most important thing that we had was some technology or some financial goal or something like that, then it would put a lot of stresses on our relationship, but since we've made that relationship such a high priority, it's extremely important. And another thing, along those lines, is we recognize that we are human, and that sometimes it's actually a personal situation that's contributing to work stress. TODD: Yes. JAMON: You might have situation where maybe a family member has health issues or you're having trouble with a relationship, or anything along those lines, and we ... I was actually talking to an employee recently who talked about a personal situation that they were having and how it was contributing to their stress, and I had noticed the stress that they were going through at work, but I didn't know about the personal situation, and it's okay. I told them, "It's fine. It's a normal, human thing to have situations that arise. I understand. It's something that you can tell us, if there's something going on, you don't have to be specific. You don't have to tell us private information, but just tell us that something's going on, and we will do our best to be as understanding as possible." TODD: And it's a matter of trust. That particular person trusted Jamon. That's fantastic. It's trust that we build up between founders. It's trust with the team, and to some extent, trust with your customers, and your vendors. Especially with customers and vendors, if you can do that, that's fantastic, but the others you can do with time. Just to give you an example, trust. I try to be trusting even when I shouldn't be. I picked up this guy the other day, in my car, he gets in the backseat. I just picked him up. I didn't know him, and first he gets in, understandably he's like, "Thanks for picking me up, but how do you know I'm not a serial killer?" TODD: And I just looked at him. I'm like, "What's the chance two serial killers would be in the same car?" Pretty low. So, yeah trust is very important. Any other tools or techniques that you all have for dealing with these anxieties or stresses or whatever? KEN: Drinking. Drinking is important. Water. Water. JAMON: Lots of water. KEN: What do you think I meant? Oh, come one. JAMON: Yes, stay hydrated. KEN: Yes, stay hydrated. Yeah. JAMON: Actually, along those lines, I started working out a couple years ago, and that has been a really good help for my stress level. When I get through with a workout, I feel better about myself. I feel good. There's probably some endorphins or something that come with that. And it's really hard when you are really critically needed at work to take two hours to go workout, but it's also extremely important for your long-term health. And so you have to prioritize it very high. And you can basically justify it to yourself which I had to do with if I go and do this, I will be better equipped to handle the issues that come up, and it's so true. Working out has been a very good thing for my stress level. TODD: A lot of people might be worried about their finances or their spouse's opinion and that kind of stuff. Which can be super challenging, so you have to deal with that. Another thing that I've noticed is, and this is pretty common, especially in our world, and I have to remember that 110 years ago, Ken'll tell me a real number, but somewhere around there. Most people worked at home, and most people had their own business. They didn't call it their own business, they were just a blacksmith, and people paid you to hoove their horses or not hoove. JAMON: Shoe. TODD: Shoe. KEN: Shoe. TODD: Shoe their horses. Thank you. It's been a while since I've lived on the farm about 30 years, but anyway- JAMON: It's that a farrier or something? TODD: Huh? JAMON: Ken, isn't it- KEN: A farrier. JAMON: Yeah, it's a farrier. KEN: That sounds right. TODD: Whatever that means. Anyways, so you would just do that. You'd just offer your services and that was a home business quote unquote. But, you know, since we all grew up in the late 20th century or the 21st century, for our younger listeners, you know that has been not the normal but the minority. And so a lot of people I've talked with, they said, "Well, can I do that? Do I have the permission to do that or whatever?" And it is kind of hard to get to their skull like who are you asking permission from? There isn't ... there is the government who has rules, but despite what you might think about the government, the rules are actually fairly basic and the IRS of course wants you to pay the money, but that's actually not the difficult to be honest either. So it's just really an internal stumbling block. You don't have to ask anyone. You can go right now. Get a business license, and sell bottles of water at a popular park. Right now, and you technically have a small business. JAMON: Regarding the personal finances side of this, one of the things that my wife and I did early on that really helped was we did a monthly budget. So we used the tool called YNAB, youneedabudget.com, and we sat down every month together, and we entered all of our receipts and we had categories and we split everything up. We were kind of finance nerds during this time, and that was helpful, because it gave us a sense of control over our finances. We knew where we were. We knew whether we had enough money to pay the mortgage. We knew how much, we could specifically tell you what day we would run out of money if we couldn't bring anything in, and that was helpful. Now, sometimes the math brings its own anxiety, but at least you know where it is, and it's not this unknown out there all the time. Actually, more lately, we've gotten away from that. After almost 15 years of marriage, and I kind of want to go back to it, because there are some stresses that come from not knowing. TODD: Yeah, sometimes everything is just fine, but just don't know it, and you assume the worst because- JAMON: Exactly. TODD: -people do. So I have a question for Ken. I grew up very poor, just some background, but later in my early 20s and stuff, my family actually started doing pretty well. My mom and my step-father ran a couple businesses. My brother started businesses and has done very well for himself. So, although, in my younger life, we were almost less than working class, to be honest. Later in life, we had a lot of experience with business. So me being in business was very natural to me, and my family understood, and they actually didn't understand when I was working for someone else. It was weird to them, but Ken, I know from discussions with you, the opposite was true. From your family, there wasn't anyone who were business people and that kind of stuff, and it was kind of outside your culture. I would love to hear if maybe that caused any particular issues for you? KEN: Yeah, for sure. I grew up in what I would call kind of professional slash academic class household. Right? College degrees going very far back in my family. Doctors, lawyers, scientists, illustrators, artists, also but professionals of various kinds. Going back quite a while. There was a flavor of business being looked down upon a little bit, and that was definitely, even when I got to Harvard. There was that divide was still there even though Harvard certainly has both types. The professional type to kind of like, well I'm good at something. I'm really good at this, and I'm so good at it people want to pay me good money for it. And that's a perfectly good life. And I'm actually here to tell you right now, if you have those skills. If you are happy doing them, you're in a good position. Should you start a business? The answer is probably no. Right? I did it because I couldn't stand not doing it. Right? It was just this terrifying but enticing thing for as long as I could remember to be ... I just wanted to be on my own. I want to do this. Ah. Right. It was this dragon inside that I couldn't contain. In some degrees, it made me a bad employee. Sometimes. Right, because anybody who's not doing what they're sort of supposed to be doing is not happy. Right? Jamon, do you want to interject? JAMON: Oh, I just want to say in Ken's family if you say someone is a painter, that means that they are an artist, and they paint on canvas. In my family, if someone's a painter, that means they spray paint on houses. KEN: Yes. TODD: In my family, if someone's a painter you're like, "Oh, he's got a job. That's wonderful." KEN: Yeah, so the three of us we talk about this class stuff all the time because when you start talking with people who grew up in different backgrounds, you start to realize what your blind spots are. Like, I remember Todd saying, growing up people who went to the movies were rich or something like that. Todd, do you remember what some of your things were? TODD: Oh, there's a long list of what rich people do that most people would find amusing. KEN: For me, not only ... I grew up in a fairly prosperous town. I would say. Right, but I wouldn't call it, there weren't a lot of rich, rich, rich people, but it was prosperous. And then going to Harvard, of course you get exposed to all sorts, and you start to realize how high the ladder goes. Right? And that gave me I think a sort of warped perspective on life. And Todd's perspective was warped in a different way. And by sort of, not like the three of us, by any stretch of the imagination, now encompass an enormous swath of life experience. JAMON: No. KEN: We're all white dudes for one thing. Right? JAMON: Yes. KEN: But nevertheless, it gives us sort of perspective on things that helps. It blunts some of the fear. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- KEN: To have that breadth of perspective. TODD: I'd like to ask Ken, because your family culture wasn't business-oriented, and as you just mentioned, almost a little bit looked down upon business people, I guess for the crassness of it all. KEN: It wasn't overt, but it was definitely outside of our purview. TODD: And definitely your friends from Harvard who weren't in business school or that kind of thing ... do you, like for me. It's easy for me. The bar was so low. I surpassed almost everyone I grew up with long ago. JAMON: Yeah. Similar. TODD: I don't have to prove anything to anyone. KEN: Well, so at this point I don't care very much. At this point, I'm doing my thing and that's that. However, I will point out there is something very interesting about Silicon Valley. Which is that Silicon Valley is a business culture that was grown by people kind of like me- JAMON: Yeah. KEN: -from the professional and scientific culture. JAMON: That's true. KEN: And as a result, that is where, I think, I'm not a sociologist. I haven't studied this or anything, but my theory is that that's where that sort of disdain for lifestyle businesses comes from. I think it's seen as sort of a grind. Where you're getting paid for the brilliance of your idea, you're just getting paid for hard work. JAMON: Yeah, I think that this idea of a lifestyle business, which I don't have any negative connotation whatsoever. In my world, a lifestyle business sounds like a luxury. KEN: Luxury. TODD: Luxury. JAMON: Okay, we're gonna have to link to that YouTube video. TODD: Yes. JAMON: But some Monty Python there. But I think that's actually something that was really, really helpful was when we merged was the idea that we can design this business to be lower stress. That doesn't mean we take our eye off the ball, which we kinda did for a little while there. That doesn't mean that we don't work hard, cause we do when the situation demands it, but we can design the type of business where the general day to day things are not drudgery. They are things that we enjoy doing. That we're good at, and that we can contribute to the success of the business. And I think that that's something that's actually overlooked a little bit when you're owning a business that you do have the ability to change things. You have the ability to enact change. It may be painful. It may be hard. It might be expensive, but you can look at something and say, "You know what, this isn't fitting for me, and I'm gonna change it." Whether it's cutting off a client that's being too stressful. Whether it's hiring someone to do something that you're not good at. All of those things are things that you can do. My sister started a small WordPress website company. So she's building WordPress websites. And she asked me for a lot of advice along the way, because she knew I'd kind of- TODD: Is this Meredith, Jamon? JAMON: Yeah. That's right that's Meredith. And one of the things I told her was that you want to stay with your kids. You want to be at home. You want to build this business that does not interrupt those things, so make those very core priorities. When you make decisions, they should be based on whether they enhance that or take away from that. It kind of gave her permission to look at things through that lens. That you don't have to necessarily measure it on dollars and cents or even things like customer satisfaction. That may be a goal and you don't want to let people down, but ultimately you don't want to let your family down. And that's something that I think is really important. So for her, you know her husband's an engineer, a mechanical engineer. He makes good money. It's not something where they have to have the business, but she wanted something that challenged her while she was also able to be at home, and I think it's done that. TODD: And the people she worked with on her team are similar, correct? JAMON: Yeah, that's right. So she not only provided a business that works for her, but also for the people on her team. So she actually has people that do code. That do design. That do content. And in many cases they are people who stay at home with their kids. And that's kind of a cool concept that there could be a business that enables that. TODD: I think that super important to mention the reason why, because people think that their business has to be like they see on TV or they read about it in a magazine or a book or whatever, and it doesn't. What principles you base your business on is up to you, and then your job is to figure out a way to make that happen. I think it's awesome that she wanted to help herself and her team who want a particular lifestyle and still be able to have this business, and she's doing it, and that's wonderful. KEN: Yeah, and I think it's worth saying on the list of reasons to start a business, getting rich should probably not be your number one. If getting rich is your number one reason, well I mean that's fine, and depending on your personality, it at least has that as a possibility. JAMON: Sure. KEN: Whereas most jobs done. At least not on any sort of short time frame. The number one reason to do it is 'cause you want more control over your life. And that's why we did it. So the first year that I took off, when we were still trying to build an ap and we hadn't done the consulting yet, my daughter was two, and to save money we took less daycare. I had to still have some, 'cause we both work, but did less daycare. So I spent time with her. I cooked for the family. I found all these ways to save money, and I was sort of part-time house husband while this was going on, and even if the rest of this fails, right? Even if we crash and burn, the chance to have that year and do that will be with me the rest of my life. So, part of our mission here at Infinite Red, and something we've always agreed on is that we don't just want a successful business. We have to do that in order to make the rest of this work. And it's a perfectly good goal in itself, but that we also want to be an example of how work can work. Right? Not that there aren't others, but this is us. This is what we think work should be like. Not that it's never intense. Not that it's never hard. Not that it's some sort of walk in the park. It is not. But that it can co-exist with the rest of your life in a much more harmonious way than has been the model for 20th century corporate whatever. TODD: Yeah, there are other ways to run a business, all of them are wrong. CHRIS: Ken do you think that when we ... that struggle occurs when we move away from those principles and values and what's important to us as business owners or whatever that label would be? So like, when you move away from maybe wanting to spend time with your family or building a company where it fuels the lives of your employees. You know, do you think that fear and intention is magnified if you move away from those things? KEN: What do you mean by move away from those things? CHRIS: So that they're no longer a priority. Maybe you're making decisions that go against those values. KEN: That is definitely a source of stress. And the fact of the matter is, we are still a business. We still have to operate in the same environment that every other business does. And we have to compete against businesses that don't operate the way we do. JAMON: Right. KEN: And to whatever extent our values create, like I said, put us at a disadvantage, and I think sometimes in the short term that is true. We sometimes have to make hard choices in order to survive and work another day. And I think there's probably kind of a core, not exactly explicitly articulated, there's some core that we won't push past, but when we have to hopefully temporarily do things that are different from our stated values. Yeah, that's rough. Absolutely rough. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: The trick is to kind of figure out ... this is why it's so important to figure out what your real values are. Right? And we've had to sort of narrow it down in certain places, because if you have this long list of things that you claim to care about, but that's not actually true. Right? Then, when it really comes down to it, there are some things that are more core than others. If you die on the hill of one of the non-core ones, and it causes you to fail, that is an unacceptable outcome. And so, figuring out which hills you're really willing to die on and which hills you're not willing to die on is super important and there's not really a shortcut. It's something that you figure out as you go along. TODD: If you're getting chased by zombies through a forest and the zombies are starting to catch up to you, sometimes you have to give grandma a cookie and push her down the hill. That's all I'm saying. It sucks. It's against your principles, but grandma's lived a good life, and she loves those cookies. Fact. JAMON: I don't even know how to follow up on that one, but one of the things I was asked early on when I started my company was, what are your core principles and I kind of fumbled through an answer, and I don't even remember what it was at the time. But I actually think it was probably not reasonable for me to even know what those were at the time other than personal values, but over time, taking lumps here and there and bruises, and the stress and anxiety of various situations, it's made it very clear what is really important. At the time I was young, I was idealistic. I didn't really understand what could go wrong. What mattered. What didn't. But I think that all of those stresses and fears eventually taught me a lot of things and so in a lot of ways, even though they kind of sucked at the time, they were necessary to get me to who I am today. You know, I don't want to go back and relive them, but I wouldn't trade them away. TODD: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well that was super interesting to me. I knew some of that. I learned some new stuff which is always fun, and I hope it has some value to the listeners for sure. You know, our experience. At least it's hopefully an interesting story if nothing more. JAMON: Absolutely.

Why Dave Decided to talk to Reekita: Augmented Reality is here and can now be used in your funnel and on Facebook Messenger. If you have a physical OR digital product Or a service, you can now use state of the art technology in your funnels. The ROI and conversion increase is amazing. Reekita is helping other marketers to use augmented reality in their business. She talks about where things are now and where it is going. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: How to integrate augmented reality into your business. (1:52) How would somebody incorporate augmented reality into their funnel (3:10) What Reekita is currently using in her business with Augmented Reality (7:28) Integrating AR into your website (9:30) Quotable Moments: "Augmented reality is any digital content you overlay into your own environment." "People will not really have to leave their house." "The best benefit is that there is no competition around. When you are seeing stuff in AR, you are seeing it as if it is in your house." Other Tidbits: Marketing, in general,  is changing very soon. All the major platforms; facebook, snapchat social media, are all integrating AR into their platforms. Links: FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:     00:00       Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Speaker 2:     00:17       Hey everybody. Welcome back to funnel hacker radio. This is gonna be kind of a fun, crazy and different types of podcasts. And I normally do A. I actually don't know this guest. This is the first time we've met. I usually, I know our guests, but a different bannock introduced us and I want to make sure we brought her on. She's doing some crazy fun kind of different things. So I want to bring on ricky to gala. We're going to welcome to the show. Speaker 3:     00:39       Thank you. Thank you. Um, and I'm a, I really appreciate you having me on your show. Speaker 2:     00:45       That the topic is the part that got my attention. I usually kind of selective as far as who we bring on, but this is a crazy time topic. So what we're going to dive right into is augmented reality marketing. Uh, this became interesting to me. I was actually, I was down at a Joe Polish and Dean Grazia Center K Group and was talking with a couple of guys there about some augmented reality that they were looking at doing and one of the guys ended up showing me a basically a website where you could move furniture around and you could see furniture in your room and whether or not you liked it or bought it. And then jeff reached out and said, hey, I've got this guy, this girl who's really knows what is happening, augmented reality. So I thought, you know what? Let's bring her on and kind of dive right in. So Ricky, to give people a little better understanding of what augmented reality is. I didn't do the best job explaining that. So Speaker 3:     01:34       you did a really good job because of mentored reality is elevate different from what your reality. What are like many people have this perception that was your reality is same as a mentor reality. But, uh, the real, the reality is that augmented reality is basically any digital content. You in a real environment. And let's say you have a print printed media, you know, some kind of pamphlets or something like that and you want to have your videos or you know, a link to your funnel so you can actually do that with the help of augmented reality. Like you can create content and you can add it on your pamphlet and once the user scans the image of whatever you are doing, they will be seeing augmented content over or you know, over the pitch or whatever you have done. And Speaker 2:     02:25       I actually saw that last December we were out, Russell and I were out, he was speaking at James Mallin shacks event and one of the ladies there had a business card that had a qr code and you basically click on the Qr code and the Qr code brought up a video of her, Speaker 3:     02:41       right? Yep. Yep. And it's nice and coated or like there are easy drag and drop tools available in the market where you can use them and create all these fun stuff within like five minutes. And it's very affordable too. So that's really simple to do. Speaker 2:     02:56       So anytime someone tells you they can do it in five minutes, I'm like, there's just no way. So tell me what's it really take and how can I actually do? How could give me an example of how someone would use augmented reality in their funnel? Speaker 3:     03:10       Okay, so one great question. Facebook, actually facebook is coming up with the augmented reality into the Messenger and you can integrate or augmented reality with your books. So let's say you want to, or you are adding your facebook messenger or link on your funding or whatever and you want your to wants to try the product. You can do that with the help of augmented reality in your Messenger. So that is one way that you can use. Speaker 2:     03:37       I haven't seen that. So yeah. So most of the people who are listening to this, they're driving or they're working out there listening to this, this podcast. So give people. You're going to have to describe in visual terms what augmented reality is going to look like on their face in Facebook Messenger Bot. Speaker 3:     03:53       Okay. So let's say you create a Messenger Bot and that are automated messages integrated, uh, US selling makeup for example, cosmetics, and you want your customer to try the product in on themselves. So what you will do is you would add a comment saying that, do you want to try the product? So it is like, let's say you respond to yes. So the facebook camera will open and once the facebook camera opens, you can actually use um, facebook air effects. They have a platform called ear effects, but you can create that effect and once you create that effect in integrated with their book, with the help of facebook Api, we can do. But yeah. So, uh, once they do that, it's all centered in everything. So once the customer says yes, they will open the camera and try to see what the different product in front of them and they can put the lipstick on their lips, they can put the foundation on whatever and they can test the product. Speaker 2:     04:51       So I can basically get a facebook message here. Speaker 3:     04:56       Yeah, Beta waiting list. And they stock in some. Oh. So by the end of this year, coming up with a lot of new strategies related to Ar and Vr and starting tweedy post and video ads like three 60 degree, three d, so you can actually see the uh, what do whatever your product is and do a three 60 or manual. Speaker 2:     05:20       So this works best for a physical product. Then physically it's Speaker 3:     05:23       not even for syllabuses. Like let's say you want to do a hologram or something like that. You can actually do those kind of stuff now. And um, think that pretty much I'm really different now. Like the way we do marketing, we used to do marketing I would say is going to be changing the student because all the major platform like snapchat, facebook, instagram, Google, they all have integrated ai into their own platform. So indion social media game is changing of Google has integrated into their maps. So let's say you open camera, you will be able to see all of the Geo based ar and you can see like, you know, the reviews the mess, like in a popups of whatever. Like if you had some audio pop pop, you can add audio and all those kinds of stuff, but you can add your animation. Speaker 2:     06:13       Wow. Let's go back to our whole funnel now. This funnel hacker radio, I've got back to where again, I could receive a facebook messenger from somebody who basically says, Hey, do you want to try this lipstick on and my camera is going to open up and they're going to give me some drawing tool. Speaker 3:     06:35       Oh No, no. Nothing like that. Could be done in er initially. And then it's just integrated with the help of Ai. So then it didn't have like, you know, automated set up stuff making it or they can change the products and all those things. On the screen itself. Speaker 2:     06:55       Is this going to look like some of the instagram little error? Speaker 3:     06:59       I'm some kind of effects that you have the dealers and all those kind of stuff that he use on facebook right now. Speaker 2:     07:05       Okay. So for us as a marketer, I'm obviously what I want to do is I'm going to sell more product so it's going to be real critical that I make sure that it actually looks good. I'm working with this, with this automated reality. I know that um, some of the older things it looked really kind of clunky and didn't work as much. What are you currently doing in your, in your business using automated reality, augmented reality, admitted automated. Yes. I'm augmented reality. Speaker 3:     07:30       Okay. So currently I'm building my own platform and the platform is related to augmented reality and virtual reality that you can create content for marketing or anything like that within just five minutes, just drag and drop kind of tools. And um, as of now I'm training people on how to create air and within that I'm creating ebooks and all those things there are user against, against the pitcher and they can have, you know, they can be connected with my funnel or they can be a youtube video or something like that. So there are a lot of things you could have gone to action right inside Ai for let's say you saw a product and you want them to buy, you can directly have a call to action inside er experience and they can just go ahead and buy the product. Speaker 2:     08:18       Okay. So my mind is just racing now. Some crazy. Cool. Thanks. So because I've had, I've had a lot of people reach out to me recently. I get approached all the time from business development opportunities when I most recently had was a video basically an overlay and again it's somewhat augmented reality type of things to where the video overlay would be either I'd be watching someone else's video and the clothes they were wearing that basically I could mouse, I could click on it and I can buy that at that exact Jack. Speaker 3:     08:54       You see all the different colors of the clothes and all the different designs and all those kind of stuff, which is really amazing because people will not really have to leave the house and they can show up right in the house. In fact, gap is doing something like that. They have created augmented reality or application that integrated on their products in that APP and you can actually try the product house. Very cool. So then all of those top companies, I've already created the, uh, into the then what are the integrated air into the website? So one of the way, or do we integrate ar is also where you can integrate augmented reality content like your digital product and whatever product is at. You can create it into augmented reality and once when he was ill wants to view that you have an option you want to view in ar or you want to just view in your web browser. Speaker 2:     09:46       Interesting. All right. So again, I, I love this. This is always cutting edge type of stuff and we just added apple pay to click funnels. So if people can use apple pay, it's one click type of deal. We're seeing on mobile, it's converting like crazy. I'm from the actual shopping experience. In your funnel, when a person buys something, does it take them to a checkout page or does it take, does it take apple pay? Right? Then what's the actual purchasing opportunity? Does it work? Speaker 3:     10:16       So, um, you know, when in augmented reality one to create the content, you have a republican going into action and you can add any link, whatever link you want to add, you can just add that energy directly, take you to the checkout page. Let's say you are already having into your website that you've added or augmented reality content with, um, it's us sending a sofa so you have added Ai, um, and you've added a CD. So once a person sees the so far they can directly click buy now and check out. So they don't really need to come back and again go through the process and stuff. And the best benefit is that there is no competition around. Like when you are seeing stuff in art, just seeing as it's right there in your house, you've already lost that mentally, Eddie. Okay. I like it. Let's go ahead and buy it. Speaker 2:     11:10       No, I love it. Actually, that's, that was experienced we had with the furniture. I'm basically the gammer opened up when the room we were in saw the room and basically this sofa came in or the chair or whatever else. Speaker 3:     11:23       It has in many ways actually, like nowadays if you go to see like there are so many people out there and selling the same stuff what you're selling and it's really hard for marketers to be different or unique in a manner that they are having something unique to give to the customer and this is one way that they can create unique strategies and create a relationship with the users, you know, the customer as well. So it helps to create engagement in something. Well, like, you know, people love to share a wow factor. I love it. No. Speaker 2:     11:54       Again, I think that's the part I'm seeing a lot on the social stuff is the shareability of it and I think that's a really neat experience. Speaker 3:     12:03       Yeah. And it creates of when you engage in wanting to have engagement and people are seeing staff it, it automatically converts into sales Speaker 2:     12:12       and that's what we're all about. Making more sales. So I think that's fantastic. So what are some of the things, so on your company is augmented reality marketing? Speaker 3:     12:22       So my company name is b r a r, d dot, but we are all into training and coaching related to augmented reality marketing. Speaker 2:     12:31       Okay. So most of your stuff is on their training and coaching side. If people wanted to actually get the tech, where would they. I'm sorry. One time you do designing end and went up into. Okay. So if a person wants to add this to their funnel, what's the best way of doing that? Speaker 3:     12:46       I think the best way of doing it is a Greek augmented reality contained with the. Like let's say they have an ecommerce tool so they can create ecommerce website with augmented reality content. So if they're selling any product or anything, they can create that content and added inside their website. So if somebody wants to see, they can directly see that. Second is they're doing a webinar or something like that. Many times we just showed us, you know, a page. I mean share the screen, like go ahead and scan the so you can actually do that. Like, you know, you show your picture or something on the screen and you want them to buy something, you just use it to scan the image of the screen and they will be able to check out immediately. They don't really need to go on the web browser and you type and see all this stuff. So it's immediate call to action. Speaker 2:     13:38       So on our funnel builder secrets Webinar, at the end, I can have them literally take a picture of the call to action. Yeah, Speaker 3:     13:47       pick up the phone and just scan the screen. And you have called to action immediately. Speaker 2:     13:53       No, that's super cool. And we're going to have to do a lot of split tests in here. I'm really, really curious to see how this converts. Yes. Speaker 3:     13:59       Would that I have learned different strategies which we can combine. In fact, I'm creating different funnels inside the software that I'm relieved and those will be like, then they are like two step three step funnel is you don't really that long step funnels that we have been creating for so long because of augmented reality is all about cutting the long experiences that you've had and giving them a unique experience. So I think that will be really cool. Speaker 2:     14:28       That's crazy. So what are some of the things that if you've been split test or looking at things, what are some of the results that you're seeing with augmented reality? Speaker 3:     14:36       So, um, recently I feel like we have been doing a lot of case studies and all those things and augmented reality or the thing that has shown in the market is augmented reality is showing the highest out of all the technologies and has been launched or you know, uh, being there in the market guilty of and it's not some effects or something like that. It's all together. A new technology like how we used to use, I mean we use phones. It's the same way in the future of augmented reality is going to be smart glasses at are wearing today within the next five years. I'm not joking. Like Sony, Google, Samsung, they have the patient already on augmented reality, smart glasses. So yeah, that's definitely future and they want us to stop using phones and all those kinds of characters and just focus on using these marg glasses and all those things. So one is going to be really connected. Speaker 2:     15:36       Crazy. So I blinked twice to buy and wants to say no. Is that how that works? Speaker 3:     15:40       Oh yeah. So Yep. I know you are be coming to the client. So yeah, I mean gestures and all those kind of things would come into play where you will click like, you know, you will just wave your hand. Say No, you blink your eyes. Yes. Those kinds of stuff are really coming out with now using technology and you know nobody or tracking. Speaker 2:     16:06       You feel like I'm gonna be sitting in an auction and accidentally raise my hand and said bought $10,000 for the product. So. Speaker 3:     16:12       Well, yeah. I mean, it's got to be crazy when in fact 2018 has been overly different. Your all together because all the top companies have created and what did you like high or integrated with the website, so either on the social media platforms or they have created their own platform for development of this and it has gone mainstream in 2018 and I was waiting for this for the last five years. I was waiting. Speaker 2:     16:42       Well, we're for people want to find out more about automated reality or connecting with you. What's the best way of doing it? Amended reality. Gosh, I'm so sorry. I keep. I've got automated or augmented, so if they want to find out more about augmented reality as I use to this automated marketing automation tools, I've been working with some academic stuff. We're doing so automation and automatic as in my back to augmented reality. Uh, if people want to find out more about augmented reality or to connect with you, what's the easiest and best way to do that? Speaker 3:     17:16       I think the best way is to connect with me on facebook. They can sell it. Tricky. Ricky Delgado and Rae Speaker 2:     17:25       k I t a g a l A. Yep, Speaker 3:     17:29       that's right. And we can take it from there if they need any help with anything because my main goal is behind or you doing training or courting people is because of mentors. Reality is the way that is going to change everything coming forward like after 2000. I think after some more we will see lot of amended reality content, especially with facebook and instagram. Speaker 2:     17:54       I really want to him. Well Ricky to thank you so much for being on the show today. I greatly appreciate it. Again, augmented reality. So I find out more about augmented reality. Check out ricky to golf on facebook are e k e t h Speaker 3:     18:10       eat. Speaker 2:     18:11       I'm just blowing this whole thing ricky to so one more time. R E E K I t a g a l A. Yeah Speaker 3:     18:19       that's right. And anyways Vicky who passed me, even if you like Google it, there's only one ricky data so they will be able to find me. Speaker 2:     18:30       Well thanks so much Speaker 3:     18:31       and thank you. Thank you so much and I really appreciate your time and having me on your show today. Speaker 2:     18:38       We'll talk soon. Speaker 4:     18:41       No. One of the things that means a ton to me is the personal reviews that you guys lead on itunes. If you wouldn't mind going out, rate the show, let me know how I'm doing. Just go to Itunes, click on the episode and rate and leave a comment. I read all the comments. I appreciate all the stars and everything. Everyone already left for me. Again, I really appreciate it and it's my way of finding out how I'm doing so if you don't mind, I'd really appreciate it and I again, thank you so much for all you guys do. Have a great day.

My message to market to offer match... Hey, what's up everyone? This is Steve Larsen, and you're listening to Sale's Funnel Radio. I've spent the last four years learning from the most brilliant marketers today, and now I've left my 9:00-5:00 to take the plunge and build my million dollar business. The real questions is how will I do it without VC funding or debt, completely from scratch? This podcast is here to give you the answer. Join me, and follow along as I learn, apply, and share marketing strategies to grow my online business, using only today's best internet sales funnels. My name is Steve Larsen, and welcome to Sale's Funnel Radio... What's up, new intro! Hey, first off, just celebrating 100 thousand downloads. We've actually be past that for quite a while, just have not had the chance to create the new intro. I wrote this script while I was in the airport, I think two days ago, and I was like let's go do this, let's get it done. Anyways, hopefully you like that. I wanted to be more forward, and open, and purposeful about what this podcast is really all about, and why I do what I do. The first about 100 episodes were me just documenting the journey and lessons as I sat next to the man Russell Brunson, of course, right? After that though, I wanted to make a really strong point of this is what I did, when I did it, this is my adjustments as I saw what market was telling me to switch. This is the part of the business and part of the funnel I'm building here and there, but not until this point because of this and that. Do you know know what I mean? I'm trying to help you guys see what I'm doing and why I'm ding it. We certainly had a chance to build a lot of those kind of things for other entrepreneurs and such along the way, and finally I was like man, I see this pattern, it's the same pattern, regardless of the industry, I'm just going to go do it, and it's been working great. Anyway, it's been a ton of fun. Here's to 100 thousand downloads, and moving along, and me kind of documenting the journey as I keep going forward. It's been off to a great start, we're officially in the month of March, which is crazy. That's nuts... Anyway, hey, so this last week I was, I've traveling like a beast, guys. About two weeks ago I was in Vegas, last week I was in Dallas, and then I hope those of you that are coming to Funnel Hacking Live I'll get a chance to actually meet you. I got something cool. Stay tuned, I think next episode I'm going to drop something cool for you guys, for those of you who are actually coming to Funnel Hacking Live. Anyways, I was speaking last week, and I don't know what the deal is with when events get created, but I feel like they get the speakers in by saying there's going to be this many people, and getting people in events is like the hardest thing on planet earth. To get someone to buy something on the internet, that's a lot easier, because, I mean, you're either having to ship something to their house, they don't have to change anything in their plans, or it's literally an info product, and you're just giving access to them, or some coaching, but an event? They got to take time out of their life. They're going to plan a flight, they're going to plan hotel rooms, they're going to plan how to get from the airport to the hotel, they're going to plan, does this make sense? What are they going to eat, what are they going to wear? They got to pack a bag? They got to make arrangements. Besides the fact you're going to sell them the actual ticket, like it's pretty incredible to watch how people, but you can really see who the amazing, amazing individual marketers are based on the events that they're putting, on which is Russell Brunson's No Different, it's freaking huge. It's amazing, it's bar none the best marketing event that is in there, that is out there. In my very humble, but straight forward opinion, and correct opinion. Anyway, this last event I was speaking at was awesome. There was supposed to be 2000 people, there was only 1000 people, which is still a lot of people, and that was a lot, which is great. I had a lot of fun, but I was expecting more. Anyway, a lot of fun though. In the evening time I went and I spoke, and I got to go to dinner with some friends that were there, and one of the people asked me a question. They said, "Steven, how do you really come up with all this podcast material? Where do you see yourself in five years? What are you going to be saying?" This is one of the major concerns that I feel like people get when they start considering publishing regularly, right? I had the same concern. The concern was what the heck do you say? Especially after I can come up with a few different episode ideas, but after a while I don't know what to be saying anymore. You know what I mean? I totally get it. I went through the exact same predicament. Whereas I don't even know, what am I going to say in episode 97? What about episode 140? What am I going to say when I'm at episode 1000? Oh, my gosh, right? I will tell you that I don't care at all until I'm at episode 96 is over. Until 139 is over, until 9999 is over. Okay? There are times, though, I've don't that six part series where I went through and deep dived with other experts in their funnels. There is times where there is a lot of planning involved with it, but I started just talking very openly about how I do my shows, and I just wanted to drop this little tiny thing onto you, and help you understand how. I feel like this is one talent and skill that has served in many areas, and I know is one of the major reasons why I've been speaking more. I know is one of the reasons why I've been able to go out and even do Russell's fad events, it's because of podcasting. I was talking to them, and I was like, "Well, here's the thing that a lot of people don't realize, is that you're learning with me. Okay, we're learning at the same time, I'm just telling you what I'm learning." How many of you guys are learning something new probably every day? Right, everybody. Everybody is. Are you telling anyone about it? One of the major things that I did in college, I know one of the major reasons why I started getting straight A's, I do believe ... You guys know that I am very religious, I believe in God, and I don't live perfectly, but I try to live the best I can. I know that for me I did really, really, really well in school. A lot of that was divine intervention, there is not a doubt in my mind. But a lot of it had to do with my own action, obviously, all of it. None of it happens without my own action, and one of the habits that I started creating for myself is that every time I came back from a class in college, this is very key, listen to this, this is, it's the same pattern for how I come up with stuff in my podcast. Every time, most times I should say, as often as I could, one of the things I actively did was whatever I learned in class that day that was exciting, that was interesting, that was prolific, that was amazing, that was something I wanted to remember, I made it a point to teach it to somebody else as quickly as I could. The moment I was done learning whatever, whether it was stuff I was studying on my own, or stuff that was in a class, or something I was building a funnel for another business, in college, that's where I developed that pattern, I developed that habit. When I learned something that is incredible, when I learned something that is like, oh, my gosh, like that really helped me here, here, and here. Right? I teach it to somebody as fast as I can. I find somebody. I have even taught random people. I know that sounds stupid and weird, but I have literally, I've done it before, or I'll send a message to somebody and be like, "I know you're thinking about this at all, I just learned something cool, I just wanted to share," because frankly it's to be selfish. I want to share it with you, but I also want to make sure I remember it, and I will teach them what I just learned. I do over and over and over and over and over... What's cool about it is it's almost like you guys have seen The Five Minute Journal? I can't remember who it's by, but it's the five minute journal, and who is by actually? I can't remember ... Anyway. The five minute journal goes through and it makes you look at your day, it makes you go back and look, and kind of debrief. I can't think of the other word for it. Assess, take accountability for the things that you did in your day, and the things that you learned, and what was amazing, what was bad, how you're going to change it, how you're going to react. I try and treat this show like that. Does that make sense? When something amazing it going on in my life and I'm like oh, my gosh, that's crazy cool. I got to share that. Right? Then it becomes very, very easy for me to continually have podcast material. I don't know what two episodes from now is going to be, but I know it will be amazing, because I thought it was amazing, and because I get excited about it, because I'm obsessed about funnels and marketing it's going to be easy for me to talk about it, and it's going to be easy for me to tell a story around it. Does that make sense? You've got to develop this talent, this habit, okay? What was super cool was I was able to use very, very heavily when I was speaking this last weekend. I've shared with a few other people as well, so if you've heard this, I'm sorry, but I went through and I was on stage and I could tell very, very quickly that the stories that I was telling, I wasn't allowed to pitch, but I took the first half of my webinar script and I just took out the pitch and I pretty much did the exact same script. I still broke and rebuilt their belief patterns, and I know it worked because a ton of people came up afterwards. Actually, it's kind of funny, for the first 24 hours not a lot of people came up. For the second 24 hours I feel like it all hit their brains and they're like, wait a second, I get it. The next day it was like floods of people. I've never had that happened before, it was funny. I was like awe, cool. Anyway, I could tell I was speaking, I wasn't pitching, but I was definitely selling, I'm always selling. I'm selling through stories, very crafted stories to help break and rebuild the way they see the world and whats actually possible, you know what I mean? You obviously can use that for very bad things, but anyway. I was speaking though, and I was I could feel that the room, like a third to a half of the room was not with me. Because I've been practicing this as frequently as I have, right? I have an entire separate podcast show. We're at episode 60-something now, right? I'm about to cross 200 episodes of doing this, let alone the different events, let alone the different places I've spoken or taught, let alone the different coaching sessions. Pretty much all of Friday for me is coaching. My entire Friday, every week, I just coach 100s of people. I mean, it's the entire day. I've been doing for that over a year now, and I've had a lot of practice at it. When I was up there and I could feel that part of the room was not with me, because their eyes went down. They got distracted by what was on the table in front of them. I wasn't getting any more like oh, ah, like you would at Fourth of July, you know what I mean? I was able to see, I was a able to sense it. I don't know what it is guys, it's a sixth sense. You will develop it if you do what I'm telling and just start publishing, you will develop it. It will not happen for awhile, but you will develop it. I could feel that part of the room wasn't with me. One of the challenges that you have as an entrepreneur, one of the challenges that I run into, that everyone runs into. I'm no exception on the rule in this, when you've got a product that kicks butt, I know that the webinar that I'm selling, that the product that I'm selling right now, it's amazing. I know it's the best one that's out there right now. I know that there is nothing out there that it like it. I know that I am the only one that delivers it how I do with the most value. I am confident in that, but that's not what sells stuff, the message is what sells it. The sales message is a different thing than the actual product. It's the reason you can start selling without the product actually being done. I've been obsessing over the sales message. I've just barely finished the product that I've been selling, which is awesome. It's such a good feeling ... Anyway, what I've been doing is I've been going and I've been selling, selling, selling, selling. Selling like crazy, and when you have a product that's, follow with me. I know I'm kind of stumbling, but follow with me, I've got 15 billion thoughts all over the place. I'm trying to follow it and grab it. When you've got all these different ... Sorry, when you've got this amazing product, okay, I'm sure all of you guys have an amazing product, so why isn't literally everyone on the planet running out to buy it? I know we've already talked about sales message is what sells the product, however, there comes a point when you don't need to be tweaking as much of the sales message anymore as much as you need to be tweaking who's hearing it. Does that make sense? I know we've all heard the phrase, "Message to market match." 100%, totally with that, totally agree with that, obviously. I think one of the dangers we will fall into through as funnel hackers is we will continue to change, after awhile, I'm not saying not to, but change your product, change the sales message, tweak, tweak, tweak, tweak, tweak. I'm getting it to a point now with the level of obsession that I've been at, where I feel like it's not going to be so much tweaking the sales message anymore that's going to be doing it, I think I could shorten the sales message for my webinar right now. I think I could shorten it. I think it's a little long, but the actual message, I think it's spot on. I think my offer, there is a few things I could add to it to turn up the sexy just a little bit, and I think I know what they're going to be, but the next piece if really changing who is hearing it, right? Who I'm dropping it front of. Steven, why are you on this random rabbit, squirrel that's over on the side? You're talking about being on stage. Okay, here's why. I was on stage, and I was telling you that about half through I could tell they were with me, they were getting it, they were like, oh, my gosh. Remember I was pitching to MLM-ers. If you're not in MLM, that's fine. I'm just telling who I was speaking with, and I was speaking with them, there's 1000 people there, I show them the funnel stuff, and a lot of them have never seen this before, and they're like, "Holy crap." About half of them were freaking out, they were like, "Good grief, that's what you just did?" I was like, "Yeah, what's up? I don't know any of you guys, you all know each other though." Anyways, it was really cool. About the other half, though, weren't with me. From that I had two options. This decision happened in my head very quickly while I was up there. They gave me a tight 45 minutes to be up there and be speaking. I had a very tight timeline, and ... That was really fast for what I did up there. I had two options, through. Option number one was to just say, you know what? It's fine. If you don't resonate with what I'm saying you're not probably a good fit for this anyway. Does that makes sense? I wouldn't say that, but that would be my reasoning, but like you didn't resonate, that's fine. That's okay. You didn't resonate with the stories, you didn't resonate with the sales message, even though I'm not pitching, I'm definitely selling, and you didn't resonate, that's fine... Number two, though, the second option I have is the one I took, which was to grab another story that I have been practicing, because of all the publishing, because of the podcasts, because of all the stuff, I developed, right, that little sixth sense that I'm talking about and grab another story from my Quiver... Grab another story, grab another arrow from my Quiver and launch that story out there that I think fits who I saw who was also in the room. I was like, "Man, I didn't realize there would be this many of this kinds of demographic. This kind of psychographic, this kind of belief pattern. I didn't realize, I wish I would have known that before. Do you know what I mean? Your ability to adapt on the fly like that will very much depend on how much you've been publishing, how much you've been practicing telling the story. The first option I had was okay, that's fine. You didn't resonate with my message, that's cool. I think a lot to when I automate the webinar that that will be my reasoning, hey, look, you didn't resonate, that's fine, but I have a second option, which is the benefit of doing live webinars, which is the benefit of feeling like live is you get to feel that sixth sense, and you get to go out and you get to say, hey, look, let me launch this other story. Let me grab another arrow from my Quiver, and shoot it out there, and go is that going to stick? And it did, and I was able to grab a hug other portion of the room and it resonated with them. Does that make sense? I know I'm kind of all over the place with this, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. This is all very very connected. Your ability to tell story, do it repeatedly, have a lot of stories in your Quiver, and being able to sense when to grab. They're like weapons guys, you grab another story, boom, and you launch it out. You grab a different story, boom, you launch it out there, you're like oh, man, that one didn't hit. Boom, that one hit. I can tell, I'm reading their body language, they're jumping all over the place, they're clapping, they're screaming, whatever. The equivalence of that online, during a webinar, whatever... If you're not getting a lot of that feedback when you're selling your product it might be very well possible that they're not feeling that. You have two options, number one is to say, that's fine, and you just keep finding people that resonate with your current message. Number two, launch a second story and shoot it out there. Launch a second story, see if it sticks, and be like oh, that one didn't stick, boom, and you launch another one, and you launch another one, and you launch another one, and your ability to do it quickly will very much effect how well the rest of your funnel performs. Anyway, does that make sense? That was kind of long, roundabout way of saying all this guys, but I hope that makes sense, what I'm saying here. This was a pretty powerful thing for me to go through. I've done it on very micro scales, where there's maybe up to 60 people in a room. I've done that many times, where I can sense it, I can feel it in the room and be like they're not getting it, or be like you know what? Let's come up with a brand new analogy on the fly, or let's use one of their business, okay, let me weave a story in between there to help break and rebuild beliefs there. Your ability to tell story is marketing, and it is selling. I'm sorry, is marketing, not selling, it's face-to-face. Anyway, I hope that make sense, and I want you to, the takeaway from this episode ... I feel like I've been all over the place a little bit with these last few episodes, but I'm trying to distill down the things that I'm noticing. It's like I think we all have the bricks, what I'm trying to do is help you fill in the mortar, you know what I mean? The glue between them, and figure out how to do that stuff. Anyways, I'm trying to help you understand that the takeaway from this is that you have got to write out storylines of what's happening inside your life. You've got to. If you've got the gumption, which I hope that, if you don't have it, learn it. Just start publishing. Start publishing those storylines, and as you do it, I don't know somewhere around episode 30-ish, I started finding my voice. Then something else happened around episode 90. I don't know I've heard it from a lot of you guys, you felt it as well. There was this extra amount of, I don't know, glaze that my voice gained as I published. It was like this extra sizzle, and I think it was part of that sixth sense that started coming in... As I would start to say stuff it was almost like I would hear the audience reply with something, with the false believe that they were hearing, that they were giving up as an excuse, and I'd have a chance to react back and forth, boom, boom, boom, boom, back and forth, back and forth, as if you were in the room with me while I was doing these podcasts. Does that make sense? I hope that you're understanding what I'm saying here with this. This is super, super, super, super, powerful. I know I pound the story, I tell you guys get good at story, but the applications for it are all over the place. It's not just in publishing, not just in selling, but the ability to adapt on the fly. The ability to get new markets in, when Russell tells the story about, "Hey, I couldn't figure out how to sell Click Phones for awhile." He had to change the story. That's the major thing. When he changed the story and the offer, and he's tweaking it back and forth, boom, boom, back and forth, back and forth, which offer matches the story that I'm telling, that matches the person that's hearing it. It's really this three part series, right? Who's hearing it, what's the story that they're hearing, and you got to craft that, and then what's the offer? Then when you match those three together, that's where the magic happens. What I was feeling on the stage was the person who was in the room was not the person I was anticipating. Crap, my story's not right, which means my offer, even though I wasn't actually pitching, I was certainly selling though, I was still breaking and rebuilding the way they saw the world, wasn't correct. There was a mismatch. I felt the mismatch. It was like this three part mismatch. I got to come up with another way to say that. It's message to market match, yeah, but there is something, it's deeper than that. It was the thing that I start knowing, and feeling, and sensing, and I hope that you understand what I'm dropping out there with this, and start feeling that. Start asking yourself, okay, who am I actually doing the selling to? What's the story I'm using to gain their attention and break and rebuild their beliefs? Then number three, what's the offer? Where do I feel like that weak spot is? If you don't know what the weak spot is you are not pitching frequently enough. I'm telling you around episode 85-90ish, okay, that was a long time, that's when I started feeling it. You have got to have frequency with this thing. Frequency is far more important, in my opinion, than perfection in every single thing you say. I say too many ums, I say too many ahhs, I'm practicing storytelling, I'm practicing is ... Anyway hopefully this has been helpful to you guys. You know what? You might actually have an amazing offer, and my gut feeling is that you probably do, you probably know that it is amazing, and if you don't know that, get there. Okay? Oh, it's amazing! It's so cool! It's the best thing on the planet. I know I can defend it to death. You know what I mean? If you got that, boom, done, boom. My offer is there, there is a few more things I got to toss in there to make it extra sexy, in terms of my fast action bonus, but the offer, done. Okay, next piece. Message. What are my stories? My stories are set, my stories are freaking awesome. I know they're great, I feel it. Then what's the next thing though? It's who is hearing it, and I think I'm speaking to about half the people that I'm supposed to. I think the other half that are coming in, they're not going to resonate with my story, so number one, whatever, or number two fire a different story. That's the next piece I'm trying to figure out when it comes to my webinar funnel. That was a very long message, and hopefully it made sense, and hopefully you can see how it applies to what it is that you're doing, and think of it in these three stages, and as I've done that it's simplified, the entire process for me. It's all very much interconnected, it's all very much, and you will not do it without mat time. You will not do it without podcasting, or whatever it is. Publishing in general, you will not develop that kind of sixth sense without actively seeking to. It will just kind of happen one day you'll be like oh, crap. I felt, that was weird, you know? It's kind of cool when it happens though. All right guys, thanks so much for listening, I appreciate it. I've developed a whole bunch of other cool outros, and maybe I'll talk about that in the next episode coming up and why I did that. Anyways, thanks so much. Talk to you later. Bye. Hey, thanks for listening! Please, remember to rate and subscribe. Got a question you want answered live on the show? Head over to SalesFunnelRadio.com, and ask your question now.

Click above to listen in iTunes... Crazy, I've never had to thing about this stuff before. WOO!!! Hey. What's going on everyone? It's Steve Larsen. You're listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio, where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business, using today's best internet sales funnels. Now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. How you guys doing? Have you guys ever seen those oxygen restriction masks? Those things are nuts. I bought one. This morning I went on this run and it was so much harder than I ever anticipated it being. I used to backpack a lot. I know I talked about that a couple times. When I was backpacking there was this time we climbed Pikes Peak. If you know what that is, it's very famous mountain in Colorado. It's funny because there's a tram that takes you up to the top. It's above 14,000 feet. When you get that high, I mean, walking just takes the breath out of you. It feels like you're exercising when you're just walking. We climbed it though. We started super early in the morning, we start climbing up this thing. It's so funny, when you start getting above tree line, which is usually around 11,000 feet, meaning it's so high that trees can't grow anymore, so it's above tree line, you start getting really deliberate in the steps that you take. It was funny because ... That was a very challenging hike actually. I liked it a lot. It was funny because, I started feeling like that this morning when I just put this mask on. If I run down to the street light, that's just a street light and back, that's two miles. Almost on the dot...  It's funny it took me an extra five, ten minutes than it normally would because I was just sucking wind. I even had it on the lowest setting. I was like, "Good grief." I forgot my high altitude lungs are just gone. Anyway. Anyway. Hey, I've been listening to and re-listening to all of the old funnel hacking live speeches. All of them. It's been a lot of fun. I'm almost done with the 2016 replays. I'll go back to the 2015 replays soon, then I'll go to 2017. I don't really know why I started in that order but I did. It's been a lot of fun to go back through and do that. It's fascinating to remember, "Oh yeah, remember when I had that aha, that was at this event here. Or I remember this personal development growth piece, this happened here or there or whatever." What's interesting is to go back and listen to all the things and I'm like, "How come I never heard them say that the first time?" Right? I think it's the reason why, I mean, my two year old and my four year old I still have to say the same things to them over and over and over again. "Hey, stop hitting your sister. Hey, be nice. Hey, be nice. Hey, hey, hey." You know what I mean? It's just human nature we all have to hear things a million times before we actually hear it. Which I think is kind of fascinating when you think of it like that. That's why I always laugh when someone's like, "I already read the book Expert Secrets." I'm like, "That is one of the most core marketing books that is in existence today. You've only read it once?" Right? I just re-read 108 Split Tests. I did. Okay? Why? Because there's all these things that you continue to get from it over and over and over again. Right? When they are the classics, when they're the things that change the way a market behaves, why would you not study them like crazy? Right? I listen to an awesome course. It's by Perry Belcher. If you can't handle swearing don't listen to it. It's by Perry Belcher and it's ... Oh my gosh. Is it the Secret Selling System? I think that's what it is. That course is freaking amazing. It's like 18 hours but that is fantastic. I'm going to go back and re-listen to that here shortly I think 'cause man that was incredible. Anyway. I keep going back to the greats. I keep going back ... What's funny is that there's so much new material around me at all times that I have not even begun to dive into because I feel like I've not mastered some of the simple things that are right in front of me. Do you know what I mean? I only like to learn things for a purpose. Even all the DISC tests and all the 16 personalities tests, all that stuff, that even says so in there. Right? I only like to listen and learn and study from things that I will use right now. I am not a good general learner, which has turned out to be a big blessing because I don't get distracted by all this other garbage that frankly it doesn't matter that I'm on or not. Right? Anyway. One of the things I was picking up today and I was kind of refreshing my mind on was a book that I read in college. It's funny when you read things the first time and when you're brand new ... Not brand new. When you're not as experienced in an industry and you start reading the books from that industry, it's funny how the first few books or courses you take is just like mind blowing. You're like, "Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh that's so crazy. What? You automate your emails out and to think all the soap opera series?" Right, that's like the most basic thing on the planet. Right? Especially for our world and what we do right? So, what I think is interesting about this is I went through and I picked up this book that I read in college and at the time I was like, "It was really good. I really enjoyed the first half of it." It's a book called Visionary Business by Mark Allen. I'll be honest. The first half of the book I got some good things from it. The second half got a little weird. It was talking about how the business has a soul and stuff like that. I was like, "Ah, I don't know about that." That business has a value ladder. That business has a really cool offer. Right? A sexy offer. Some false beliefs. I don't think it has a soul. Anyway. I don't know, maybe I'm just not open minded enough or something like that. I don't know. It's fascinating though, 'cause one of the realizations I had, and this is where I'm trying to take this episode just so you know, one of the realizations that I had as I ... It was probably about three or four years ago, was that I was studying areas of business that did not apply to where I was at the time. Okay? I know I've talked about this before as well, right? Just in time learning, stuff like that. I believe it's good in phases. You know what I mean? Every once in a while you got to just drink deeply and I can tell. I can tell. I'm not exactly sure when but I can tell that sometime soon I'm going to go through a really, really, really deep learning phase and it's going to be me primarily focusing on the seven to eight figure area. I think that my webinar's going to hit a million bucks probably summer to the latter part of the year. Somewhere in there. I think that's when I'll hit it. Then, primarily where I've been focusing is the zero to one figure area, right? 'Cause that's where my personal thing is on right now. While I've made a million bucks for a lot of other people many times, this one of my own, that's what I've been focusing on obviously. What I realized though is three, four years ago I was studying these areas of business that I was not in. It was just general learning and therefore I was a distraction and I was literally getting nowhere. It's fascinating 'cause I picked this book up again this morning, Visionary Business, and I start looking through the book and I start reading through it again. I was looking at just ... My habit is that if something's really, really amazing I will fold the bottom corner of the page so next time I pick the book back up again I'll look at the key points. If you look at all my books that's one of the reasons it takes me so long to read them, but the reason why is because I can come back later and I just look at all the corners of the pages that are folded up on the bottom and I can read just that part again. I'm like, "Oh yeah, that was like the core thing of this part. Oh yeah, that was like the core idea of this one." Right? I can pick back up really quickly and refresh what I need to. It works well. Anyways. I was doing that and I picked up Visionary Business and I started looking through and I was looking through all the little turned up corners on the bottom page and it was fascinating because there's some really interesting ... I liked some of the key parts that it teaches about management. I don't know why the heck I was studying management when I had no one to manage. Right? You know, I saw it, just barely launched the hiring funnel. Thank you to those of you guys who are applying. I appreciate that a lot actually. Those of you guys who want to work with me, that really means a lot. If you did not hear that episode it's like two episodes before this one it's called My Hiring Funnel. You can back up and just listen to those. Anyway. Awesome stuff... I was looking this up again and there's these two different styles of management that it goes through. This is what it says. Okay? It was on page 68. It says, "There are two styles of management. Management by crisis, and management by goals. Those caught in the management by crisis trap are always working in the business and never have time to work on the business. Their vision of the future is lost." I think that's fascinating. It's very much a ... You know, we should all react to crisis obviously well and try and move on but I totally understand, I totally get that. Right? Management by crisis, management by crisis. Right? Oh my gosh. We're going to have this bad thing happen and this bad thing happen and this bad thing will happen. You almost bring to fruition your fears, rather than focusing on what the goals are and that's what you bring to fruition. Right? That's what you should actually bring to the present now and actually make happen... I thought that was kind of interesting. The only reason I'm bringing this up is because I'm hiring people now. Right? I have actual employees. Number one, I'm an actual employee of my own business. That's how we structured it. Pretty soon my wife probably will be also and things like that, and that's great. But I have an actual employee now. You know? Now I look at this and I'm like, "Management by crisis. Huh." I've had a ton of VA's, right? But this is my first real employee. W2 employee. Actual employee, right? I'm excited. It's going to be so fun, right? He's not starting for a little bit here but I'm super excited to have him. You guys will all know who he is. I'll introduce him. He's the man. I wouldn't have hired him otherwise obviously. We actually have quite the history together, which is kind of cool. It's funny that that's how that's turning out. We're getting back together, getting the band back together man it's going to be awesome... Anyway. It's going to be a lot of fun. What I'm doing though is I'm looking through and I'm thinking management by crisis. That's fascinating. How do I avoid a management by crisis scenario and instead, how do I manage by vision, by goals, right? Obviously there's times for both. But how do I primarily stay in the management by goals area? Anyway. I thought that was kind of interesting. I can't remember, I was at a fad event or I don't know, I was coaching someone I can't remember who it was but they were asking, "How do I find good people? How do I find good people?" I know I talked about this a little bit in the hiring episode but this is the phase I'm in so I'm just kind of documenting my stuff as I'm going through here, right? Anyway. It was fascinating 'cause I was watching Russell and I was listening to Russell and he said, "Hey, I always hire from within." That's what he said that time when ... I mean, he sent out a whole bunch of emails. I've watched him do a lot of things like that where he hires from within. He hires from within the culture, which is why it's important to build it. Right? Expert Secrets talks about that. You build the culture. As you're building the culture you're actually having these true believers come out of the woodwork. Right? Me. Right? It's safe to say that I'm a click funnels fanatic. People know that and he knows that and everyone knows that and that's fine and they should. It's great. But his ability to create culture is what allowed him to hire from within and that's what I'm trying to say is start thinking through hey what's your management style and things like that, but so much of it will already be dictated by how your culture has been set. Right? Russell had to spend zero time indoctrinating me. When he hired me. He had to spend zero time teaching me click funnels. Zero time. You know what I mean? It's because I was so into it already. That's all I've been doing is looking for the individuals who are so into what I do. Right? I always say, you guys are going to get like 10% of the people who follow you to just be like the fanatics. The people that are crazy, right? I'm sure I'll throw some kind of event. I'm sure I'll throw some kind of my own inner circle summit or some kind of coaching. Something in the future of my own, right? It'll be 10% of you that are really, really, really Steve Larson fanatics and would love to come hang out, and would love to learn the next piece, and would love to ... That's exactly what happened at the last Mastermind that we through, right? That's exactly it. You have to understand that's the natural progression but I did not worry about that or focus on it until now. Right? Meaning I've been building the culture. I've been building all that stuff but I'm not studying management til I need it. Right? Then again, I'm not even really studying it because they're already indoctrinated into what my vision is. Right? I want to change the world. I don't exactly know how yet but I know I do. Right? It took me a long time to have the cojones to say that kind of thing. I always thought that was kind of weird, like, "Oh yeah I want to change the world ha ha ha. Oh ha ha." Right? I don't know why I was always timid about saying that kind of thing but not anymore. Right? I'm trying to find other individuals who are also like that. It's been kind of fun because I know those of you guys that have been applying to work with me, whether as a funnel builder, an assistant, a support person, a high ticket salesman, you understand where I'm trying to drive the ship. That's the benefit of doing it that way, which is kind of fun. It's really fun actually. Anyways. That's all I really want to say in this episode. Start building culture because when it comes time to actually hire, you've got to be able to have that culture that's already there so that you can hire from people who are already indoctrinated. Anyway. There's another cool quote, I was looking at another one of the turned pages in this book Visionary Business. Again, I really like the first half of this book. The second half for me got a little woo woo. I don't mind woo woo but in a business? There's nothing innately spiritual in my business itself. My logo is not speaking to me, you know? I'm the one driving it. You know what I mean? If anything it's the woo woo in me. Anyway. We can go on a whole other topic there. I'm going to pack up. This last half of the book was a little bit weird for me but it was on page 92 about halfway down, it says, "Hire people who are passionate about their jobs and who have the suitable personality for the job. Hire a technician for a technician's job and a manager for a manager's job." I think that's so true. Gosh, that's so true. Understand what you are innately geared to do and it's one of the reasons why I have people take the DISC test. It's one of the reasons why I have people take that 16 personalities test, why I have them film a video. If you can't film a video and put it on YouTube and give me the link, you are already not suited to work with my stuff. You know what I mean? That makes sense. I know you all know to do that but that's the reason why I do that. Anyway. It's been kind of fun to go through that and start looking at these different management styles, make sure I'm not managing by crisis. Make sure I'm managing through goals. It's like, "Hey, let's go here. Let's drive there." I'm trying to do it in a way where I'm not babysitting. Right? Not that I need to. Not that I'm going to have to with this guy. He's the man. I know I'm not going to have to. Right? He's the man. But you know when you were growing up, I'm sure we all did this to a degree. We're all growing up, mom and dad give you a task right? Or whoever. Your guardian, whatever it was. Whenever you were younger somebody gave you a task. It could be a teacher, right? You were given a task. The moment that individual walked away you had such a less fire in the gut to get that activity done. Right? Same thing when I was in the army you guys, which by the way I'm finally finishing up the paperwork. I'll be out of the army here very shortly, which is very, very exciting actually. But anyway. In the army, right? A commander or a first sergeant or someone of authority would come up and give some kind of task and everyone would be like, "Roger. Oh yeah, I'll get it done." As soon as they leave sometimes it'd be like, "Oh, okay we have like three hours to do that thing. We really need like 30 minutes. Okay, well we're all just going to hangout for a little while and [inaudible 00:16:14]." Right? Then that person comes back and everyone acts busy again. Right? That's not the management style or scenario or culture that you want inside your business. Right? What's so awesome is the people that I'm hiring, especially this guy, I'm so excited for him to come in because I already know that his culture and my culture together match and mix and we do well. I am not babysitting. I am not managing by crisis. I am not managing as a babysitter. Right? I'm setting the goals, I'm saying, "Let's do this. Let's do this over here. Let's take that mountain. Let's do it." I don't have to be in the room for those things to be done. I'm so thankful for that because I can quote so many jobs and I'm sure you can as well, where that was the culture. Where as soon as the individual left, right? As soon as the individual left nothing happened. Nothing happened. That was management by force. Right? Management by crisis. Terrible management style to be a part of that. Anyway. Those are the things kind of going through my head with this and hopefully that's helpful somehow. Understand, again, I didn't worry about any of this stuff until I needed it. I don't know if worry is the right word either but I'm not concerning myself with it until I need it. I really don't need it that hard anyway because the people that I'm hiring and bringing on are already indoctrinated. I think it almost negates some of the things that are in this book is also kind of what I'm saying. You don't have to do all those pieces so deeply. Right? That a lot of these other management books will talk when you have a strong culture in the business and when you hire from within. That's the main key. That's all I'm trying to say in this. It's kind of a long winded way to say it but anyways guys. Hopefully that's helpful. Thanks so much for being a listener and we are well past 100,000 downloads now. I just have not had time to actually go and create the new intro music, which I'm very excited to do. There's something special with it that I'm trying to put in it so anyway, it will be done hopefully shortly. Alright guys, talk to you later. Bye. Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Want to get one of today's best interest sales funnels for free? Go to salesfunnelbroker.com/freefunnels to download your prebuilt sales funnel today.

What Dave Woodward taught me in-between stage time... Hey, what's going on everyone? This is Steve Larsen. You're listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio, where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business using today's best Internet sales funnels. Now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. All right, all right, all right. I am in the throws of just building like crazy. I'm about to finish my webinar product. I have had, I've had a ton of people come out and say, "Hey, will you build this? Will you build this? Will you build this?" It's so funny you guys. It's been this way every single time I've ever built anything, ever. I remember I was going out, and I can't remember what I was building, it was years ago. I started noticing this pattern that any time I got ... I started setting this resolve of like, "I'm going to go build this, and I'm going to stay focused, and no one else is going to get distracted." Like, "All right, no one's going to distract me, and I'm only going to do one thing at a time this time." As most entrepreneurs probably go through. It's every single time I go out and I start having that kind of intent to build something different or put something out there, it's like the world and the market come flying out from the woodwork and just trying to distract me, trying to say, "Hey, well here's an opportunity over here. Come over here, there's an opportunity here. This piece over here. Don't miss out on this over here." Right? I'm sure you guys have all seen that before. If you haven't, get ready and buckle up, okay? As soon as anyone ... Here's the funny thing, okay? Most people in life don't really do that much stuff, right? If you're listening to this podcast, right, you're probably one of the other ambitious individuals on the planet. There's like, newsflash, there's not many of us. I didn't know that, and it's not to put anyone else down, but some people are completely content of doing the same thing over and over again in their life. That's great, good for them. I'm not and you're not either, I'm assuming, right, that's why you're listening to this, okay? I'm not. For me, I had the hardest time when I was in school knowing what to try and choose to do. I would stand around and go, "Oh my gosh," like I, do I try and go ... My major at BYU-I was actually finance and then I was like, "Maybe I'll do supply chain. Maybe I'll do this over here. Maybe I'll do ... Gosh, I have no idea, because if I do this, I'm going to get stuck at a desk doing the same thing over and over again. If I do this over here, oh my gosh. Like literally, I'll look at spreadsheets all day long." I was like, "I don't want that." It's funny, because when I started getting really clear on what it is that I wanted, two things happened, right? The first thing that happened, well first of all, just so you know, I was like, I was in this huge conundrum and suddenly, and finally I had this professor, this teacher, he's kind of one of my, he was a mentor of mine basically. He was a teacher. He and I spent a lot of one-on-one time together actually and he would just teach me stuff. He was a former CMO of Denny's and of Pizza Hut. I've talked about him before. He was the guy that invented the stuffed crust pizza, and all hail. He would teach me a lot of amazing stuff. One day, he took me aside and he goes, "Look, Stephen, I see that you are like massively torn between what you should do." He's like, "You need to come and you've got ... Come get a marketing degree, man." I was like, "Serious?" I was like, "I'm not going to lie. I look at the marketing degree as like a cop out." Okay? That was my view of what marketing was at the time, which was so skewed. Like oh my gosh. In my mind, there's no other skill set that will pay you more than learning how to do sales and marketing but for some ... Like the way it's taught, right? The cultural perceptions of western society look at sales as almost like the people who couldn't get any other career. Like are you kidding me? That's like the most valuable, most important career on the planet. Like without sales, the entire economy dies, newsflash, right? Like holy smokes. Learning how to be salesman, learning how to market, those are like the most profitable skills you could ever learn, right? Which is amazing, it's just amazing. Anyway, so I was like, "Okay." He's like, "Come, come and do this thing." Like, "Fine, fine." He goes, "Look, I know you're going to like it because you have to solve a new problem and a new challenge pretty much every day. It changes, you're never doing the same thing over and over again. Even if you have to, it's kind of different, right? It's for different people." I was like, "All right, fine." He goes and he convinces me to get into this. He's like, "Go do marketing," so I get into marketing. I started studying marketing stuff and I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing. This is super cool." It's always, it's been fascinating to me how much of it has to do with psychology than anything else. Some of you guys might be thinking like, "Steve, are you just realizing this now?" No. I'm not, but I had it reinforced to me again two weeks ago, and I wanted to tell you guys about it. Again, I'm talking about the FHAT event. This last one was, frankly, like so freaking awesome. I was on point, Russell was on point. Like it was just, my gosh, and it was our last one, which makes me super sad, but I get why. Just logistically, it's a hard thing to pull off, it's three days. We clearly over-deliver on ... I mean, anyway, it takes a lot. It takes a lot to pull them off. I was up there, I was teaching, it was going great, it was awesome. I love, I love, and I hope you guys understand in the future, I would love to have a coaching program of my own, I would love that. The reason I'm bringing this up is because one of the things that's such a huge benefit of being attached to a place like ClickFunnels, which I still am, which is great. I'm contracted to run the Two Comma Club coaching program or part of it with them now, which is awesome. I just signed the contract, I'm very excited about. It's a huge deal, very huge deal. I love the mentorship. I love ... I'm scared to death to actually completely remove myself from the marketing nucleus that ClickFunnels is. Internet marketing status quo as a whole gets created in those rooms, right? It's amazing, it's amazing. Common practice, think about the power of that. It's huge, right? It's like a massive innovation center. I mean, I feel like ClickFunnels is the apple of the Internet marketing world, right? Just massive innovation on an intense level at all times. It's very, very fun to be part of. Extremely electric environment, right? I loved, loved working there, very sad to not be. You guys know that story though, for a lot of reasons why I'm not now, but I still wanted to be a part of it, so I was super, super thankful when I was asked to be contracted as a Two Comma Club coach there, and still be a part of that a little bit. I wanted to tell you guys though about an experience that I had that kind of reinforces what I'm saying right now about how much of this has to do with human psychology. Had way more ... Which is funny, because I almost went into psychology. I was like, "Yeah, this is really interesting stuff." I was like, "That's a lot of science terms and I don't really want to learn that stuff." I still am ... The parts that interest me, funny enough, are actually all the things that I still use for marketing messages and storytelling as it is anyway. Anyway so, gosh, mentorship is such a huge piece of growth to this, I love it. I hope to be able to do that, and a lot of you guys have asked, actually reached out and asked. Probably more of you guys are doing it than you realize, then the rest of you guys realize. Yes, the answer is yes. I would love, love to be able to mentor and coach and show you guys the very obvious places where you could improve your funnels and things like that. It's all I do anyways. I've been doing it for the last year with hundreds and hundreds of students. We have over 600 students now inside of the Two Comma Club coaching program. I'm on with them every week, pretty much for the most part. Unless I get bronchitis like I did a while ago, it was crazy. Anyway, so I was on stage and I was teaching, and it was awesome. I noticed that the room was starting to drop in their responsiveness on what I was saying. If you guys have ever taught or ever spoken, you can feel that as the speaker, right? I'm sure you guys have felt that before. You stand up and you starting to deliver, and you can feel the responsiveness. You can feel how people are with you or not when you're actually speaking, and teaching and do whatever you're doing, selling, okay? Which is one of the major reasons why I tell everyone, "You've got to publish consistently. It would be an amazing teacher for you." Just you, that's like self-teaching. Just you publishing is like self-teaching. An amazing, a very powerful way, right? It's like tailored coaching to yourself, but it's from yourself, which is pretty interesting. You only get that with publishing frequently, right? Anyway, which is why I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Get good at telling stories. It'll be so ... You'll see the responsiveness." Anyways, I'm on stage, I can tell. The reason why I knew is because they were just getting tired. Okay? They had been there for eight hours the day before and I don't let them take breaks, okay? If they got to get up and go to the bathroom or anything, they get up in the middle and then leave, okay? I don't really ...There's like two breaks the whole time, lunch and kind of dinner, kind of. Okay? They'd already gone eight hours the day before and we were like six hours into day number two, and there's still like another seven hours to go. We're stopping for dinner, okay? There's been a lot of progress. I'm helping them make their webinar scripts. I'm helping them make the actual funnels. We're going through and we're teaching storytelling, we're teaching, and we're helping them. They're doing it and we're also coaching them through it on different ways. They're listening to each other being coached and it's a great ... Oh my gosh, huge accelerant, massive catalyst for growth, and so I love that event so much. They're getting tired and I can tell the responsiveness of the room is beginning to drop. I kind of started making fun of them just a little bit. I know a lot of you guys listen to this podcast, "What's up?" You guys are a great group, love you. Just know from my side, that's what I was seeing though. I was like, "I know they're getting tired." I was like, "How can I break state? How can I break their state? How can I jar them in a certain way?" I was kind of like jesting, in a playful way, making fun of them like, "Come on. Stick with it here, we got to keep going. This is three days that can set up the next 30 years of your life if you do it right." It's like ... Anyway, and so we break for dinner, I'm going on in the back. As a speaker, I got to decompress from just this constant ... It's like, let me think. It's like 24 hours of me on stage in three days. It's a lot. Russell told me 90 minutes is the equivalent of an eight hour day, and I'm on there for 24 hours in three days. Like I am wrecked by the end of it, okay? The day after and several days after, it feels like I ran a Sprint triathlon, which I used to do. It's like the same feeling of just exhaustion, but it's super fun. Keeping the energy high is super key with it. Anyways, I go to the back, I'm decompressing, I grab food, and I was just kind of sitting in the back. One of the brilliant people that I love being around in ClickFunnels walked into the back, and his name is Dave Woodward. He walks into the back, and he sits down next to me, and he's eating food. We're just chatting it up, and he's asking how things are going. He's like, "Hey, you're on your own, this is awesome. What are the issues? What are the cool things?" Back and forth. Then Dave goes into this brilliant teaching mode. I hope he's okay with me sharing this, but I wrote it down. He goes, "Have you ever heard of the four C animal psychology approach," or whatever. I can't remember what it's called. You guys out there, I'm sure some listeners listening to this probably know what I'm talking about. I was like, "No, I have no idea what you're talking about." Because what I had just said was, "I can tell that I'm losing some of them. They're getting tired. I want to make sure ... I'm trying to keep them engaged. They have to be engaged mentally in this process for the three days. It's a lot, but they got to stay with it." I was like, "Trying to get ... I can feel ... It's going really well, but I'm killing them a little bit, I'm killing them. I got to resurrect the feeling a little bit. I got to keep them engaged with it. I got to inspire them a little bit." He goes, "Hey, have you heard of this? It's like the four C animals approach to psychology." I was like, "No." I'm calling it wrong, okay? Whatever it's called, I don't know, okay? He goes, "Okay." He goes, "You and I, we're sharks. Sharks are go-getters. They stop at nothing, okay?" I was like, "Okay. That makes sense." He's like, "Then, there's also dolphins. Dolphins are bubbly. They like being the center of attention a little bit." He's like, "There's always a few people in the room that are really engaging with you the entire time?" I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "Those guys are totally dolphins, okay? Those are the dolphins. They're very, very friendly, they're open, they're bubbly. They have no problem being engaging and energetic." I was like, "Okay." He goes, "Then, there's whales, okay? A whale is someone who wants to make sure everything is fair, okay? Those are the people in the room who are kind of like your checks and balances system when something ..." "You say you're going to do something and you forgot to cover that, they'll go back and they're the ones correcting you. They'll make sure everything's fair, everyone's treated fair. That everyone feels validated and everyone feels edified, right?" I was like, "Okay." Then he goes, "Then the fourth kind though is the sea urchin, okay? The sea urchin are like the accountants. The accountants are sitting back, and they're extremely logical. They're very number driven, they're very process driven." He goes, he said, "We all have pieces of each one of those in us but there's always a dominant, okay?" He goes, "You're a shark." I said, "Yes." He goes, "You need to understand that people will not ... If they don't have any shark in them, they're not going to respond to your shark-like mentalities. They're not going to respond to yours shark-like communication style." I was like, "Huh, that makes a lot of sense." He goes, "If you watch the way Russell speaks, and you watch the way Russell goes, he's very brilliant at making sure he communicates to all four of those personality styles, of those learning styles, right? Communication styles in the room. He hits all four of them in the room." I was like, "Huh, that's fascinating." It was dinner, and we had another five hours to go. I mean, we usually stop that event at 12:30, 1:00, right? Afterwards, after it was over, we all, Russell and I and Dave and Melanie and John, we all just kind of hung out. It was a lot of fun. We just kind of chatted up and caught up for a little bit, because it had been several weeks since I had been there. Anyway, so but that was fascinating to me though. He goes, "Make sure that ..." He said, "You're doing great. I mean, you're really, really awesome." I was like, "Oh, thanks so much." He goes, "But make sure that when you get back up there, and you are trying to keep them motivated, and you are trying ... That you are talking to sharks, yes. You are a shark, that's easy for you to do." He said, "Make sure you're talking to the dolphins that are bubbly and energetic." He goes, "You can do that. That's very much your style also." I was like, "Yeah, I'm definitely energetic." He goes, "Make sure also that you're talking to whales, right? The whale, meaning the personality who wants to make sure that everything's fair. Making sure that there's everyone's nice." He goes ... Even though I was jesting, making fun of everyone. I was like, "Come on, stick with it. You guys ..." He's like, "That may have been bad," that I was jesting, making fun of them, right? I was like, "Come on, you can do it. Stick with it." I was just trying to keep them motivated but I was like, "Huh, for that personality style, for that communication style, they may not have liked that, and that was a mistake of mine." Right? "Then for the sea urchin, make sure that you're still going through logical progression, you're still ..." He's like, "Make sure that when it comes down to motivating, when it comes down to communicating, when it comes down to script writing. When it comes down to any communication piece that you're doing whatever you can to communicate ..." "Because a sea urchin, if that's their preferred style, they like to learn like a sea urchin, right? Not like a shark. You got to speak like a sea urchin, all right? Make sure if the person's, right, dolphin, you got to speak a little bit of dolphin, right?" He's like, "Make sure you're learning each one of those four." That was such a huge lesson. It was such a huge lesson. I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's okay, okay. Awesome, cool." I went back out and for those of you guys who were there, you might have noticed, I don't know. I was trying to incorporate more of those things throughout, and I did that specifically on the third day. I don't totally know how, but I know that like when people say like, "Oh, when the student's ready the teacher appears." It has everything to do with the student's ability to learn though. I was like, "No, it does have a lot to do also with the teacher's ability to deliver." Right? I was trying to practice that, and I was trying to get good at that. Anyway, it was fascinating, so that's what I'm doing. What I'm trying to do is I actually went back to my webinar script that I'm currently running right now, right? My webinar. It's going great, going actually very, very well. It's been fun because I'm trying to incorporate now, I've got the shark piece but I'm trying to incorporate a little bit of dolphin, okay? I've got that pretty naturally also, okay? The whale, right? How can I make sure everyone feels like things are fair? How can I make sure that there's still logical progression, and the people like to analyze stuff, for sea urchin? You know what I mean? I'm going through, and the actual sales scripts themselves, on the pages, inside the webinar, after the webinar. I'm going through all those things, I'm trying to add those things in. It's gone really, really well. It's actually been really, really cool to go through and do that. Anyway, guys, that's all I wanted to tell you guys about was try and figure out which one you are, and then learn to speak the other languages, okay? As far as communication skills, communication tactics. If you are a straight up shark, unless you're looking for just straight up sharks also, right, make sure you're speaking other forms of communication as well that people ... It's kind of like the love languages. These are almost like communication languages. That's how I look at them anyway. I'm probably botching some pieces of it... I don't know the name of that methodology or whatever it was that he was teaching me, but the lesson, the lesson was powerful for me and I'm like, "Huh." I've always tried to incorporate certain things like that, but I never heard it described that way. I think I was neglecting specifically a certain part, and certain personality and communication style in the room. I didn't know that. It's not that it wasn't good, not that they weren't getting the stuff also, but I'd be more effective if I was like, "I got to learn these other pieces here." Anyways, that's what I'm doing right now. Trying to go through and toss a few of those, more of those elements in. I am dedicating right now full days to just the actual webinar script. That's how much I'm trying to master and just get it down. Selling once a week right now, and it's the only funnel I'm running. I got plans for all these other funnels. I got offers for tons of other funnels to go build. I got offers for all the other things, but it doesn't matter right now. Okay? I know I'm literally one funnel away. That's not just a phrase or a saying that's kind of cute, it's a real thing. I know that, and I've seen that, and I'm doing it, and so I'm trying to say no to everything else. Also, with the communication style of, "How can I speak to everyone else's language?" Because we're all different. Anyway, okay guys. Thanks so much, appreciate it. I hope you guys learned something from that. You can go back and incorporate that into your scripts and your copy and communication styles. I'll talk to you later. Bye. Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Want to get one of today's best Internet sales funnel for free? Go to SalesFunnelBroker.com/FreeFunnels to download your pre-billed sales funnel today.  

How do you embody masculinity in a way that creates more connection and passion in your relationship? How do you avoid the stereotypes, while still getting the benefit of positive polarity in your relationship? Is there even a point to talking about “masculine” vs. “feminine” (and if so, what is it?)? Today’s episode is a conversation with Shana James, men’s coach and host of the Man Alive podcast. We take apart the myths of what it means to be a “real man” - and explore how you can get beyond what you’re “supposed to” be, uncover the true you, and bring all of you to your relationship. Learn how to break out of the box in a way that keeps you connected to the people who matter most. Please enjoy this week’s episode, with Shana James, on Relationship Alive! Resources: Here is a link to Relationship Alive episode 20, my first conversation with Shana James on Sparking Passion through Generosity and Authenticity Visit Shana James’s website to check out the Man Alive podcast AND pick up her free guide to the Unknown Skill that helps men succeed in life, career, and relationships. FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide Relationship Alive Community on Facebook Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out visit http://www.neilsattin.com/128 to download the transcript for this episode, or text the word "PASSION" to the number 33444. Transcript: Neil Sattin: All right. Hello and welcome to another episode of ... Shana James: Man Alive, and welcome to another episode of ... Neil Sattin: Relationship Alive. We are your hosts ... Shana James: Neil Sattin. Neil Sattin: And Shana James, and we're here today to talk about some really important topics that we each wanted to cover on our respective podcasts, and so we thought, "Why not ..." Shana James: Become each other and do it together. Neil Sattin: Right. We will merge like you're not supposed to do, but why don't we come together and talk about it, and so we have it for each of our shows? Shana James: I love it. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Shana James: I love it. Yeah. We've been really going back and forth around this idea of the stereotypical masculine and some frameworks out there that in some ways have been really helpful for men, and have had men step into more of their power, and confidence, and have deeper connections, and in other ways have, what might you say, pushed men into shame, and feeling wrong, and feeling they're out of one box and into another box, and feeling confined, and so really wanting to look at if we are going to take on or if men are going to take on a kind of archetype or ideas of masculinity. How can they be played with versus ... How did you say it? Versus constricting or something like that? Neil Sattin: Constricting. Yeah. Yeah, and this question too of whenever, if you're feeling like you should be some way, whatever way that is, how's that going to impact you? How's that going to impact your relationships, and because my show, like ... Shana James: Yeah. Neil Sattin: This is interesting because my show is all focused on relationship, and Shana, your show is called 'Man Alive', so it's all about this question of how men can step into who they are. Shana James: Yeah. Yeah. Neil Sattin: I was wondering before we got on, I was thinking like, "Is there a difference when ...? Is there something about men stepping into who they are where that could in and of itself get in the way in relationship?" Shana James: Interesting, so the question being if men are themselves for lack of a more specific way to say it right now. Right? Like if a man actually discovers who he is, his own needs, his desires, his truth, that it could actually get in the way of a relationship? Neil Sattin: That was the question. Shana James: That's the question. Neil Sattin: Yeah. I say that because when I'm looking at a lot of ... Shana James: Interesting. Neil Sattin: I like the word you used, 'Framework', so I'm looking at some of the frameworks that are becoming more and more popular now as a way of I think reeling ourselves back from men and women being the same, and so trying to reclaim some of the polarity and the difference, and the beards I guess. Shana James: Yeah. Yeah. Neil Sattin: As I look at that, I can see that there's a lot in that that actually does help us, men ... I'm just speaking for myself here, step into more of who we are. In fact, I even grew this out a little bit for our conversation. Shana James: "This" being "a beard" because some people are not watching this... Neil Sattin: Right. My beard. Right. You might not be watching, so I grew my beard out. That's an important thing to note. Shana James: Yes. Neil Sattin: That being said, when you start talking about what's involved in people actually relating to each other, then I don't think that those answers necessarily are long-term solutions. They could provide short-term solutions, but over the- Shana James: The answers of like, "Here's how to be a more masculine, or more of a man?" Neil Sattin: Here's how to be more of a man. Yeah. Yeah. Shana James: Yeah. Neil Sattin: Take charge, buy a gun, grow a beard, drive your truck, and own all of the archetypal or really stereotypical manly things. Shana James: This is so interesting because hearing you say that, I'm like, "Oh, that wasn't the frameworks I was talking about about being a man." I was thinking more of the frameworks of David Deida and some other people out there who talk about a kind of masculine power that has to do with presence and solidity that I'm getting a little tongue in cheek in the way I'm saying this, but I do think they're actually really powerful ways that a man or a woman ... I mean, we could talk about it. Right? Masculine and feminine to me doesn't mean man, woman, but yeah, so probably important that you and I get on the same page. Are we actually talking about the same frameworks or do we have different frameworks we're thinking of? Neil Sattin: I think that's why it's so important that we have this conversation, and of course, I was being a little facetious about the gun and the pick-up truck, and the beard for that matter, and you might be able to hear there's a plow actually. Shana James: Yeah. Yes. Neil Sattin: I wish I were driving that plow. It feels so much more masculine as well. Shana James: Manly than sitting here, doing a podcast. Neil Sattin: Right. Right, or, "Why’d I get the plow? I should be out there shoveling like a real man." Shana James: Right. The whole idea of being a real man. See, my sense- Neil Sattin: Yeah. Shana James: Right? This is where it gets confusing. I think a lot of the frameworks out there ... My sense is that their intention in some of these more conscious realms and tantra and personal growth is to help men step away from some kind of box of, "Here's what you have to be to be a man", and yet, I think they have a negative spin sometimes where men take it on as, "Oh, now I'm supposed to do this to be a man. Right now, I'm supposed to be more present." Neil Sattin: Right. Shana James: "Now, I'm supposed to lead. I have to lead every action." Neil Sattin: Exactly. Shana James: Right? Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. "I'm supposed to lead. I'm supposed to open my woman" if we're talking about a heterosexual relationship... Shana James: If we're talking heterosexual. Neil Sattin: Right, and there's no room for me to be uncertain or vulnerable, or weak, or ... Yeah. Shana James: Which is so interesting because a lot of the work that I do with men is around how to be able to bring vulnerability, shame, weakness, desire, whatever our weaknesses and what I think makes me weak, but in a more powerful way, which again, I think could be confusing, but in a way, the way I describe it is like, "I have these vulnerable parts of me, and ultimately, I know I'm a good person or I'm a good man." Like, "I know there's more to me. I know that these things don't make me unlovable or unworthy, and so I can bring these forward in relationship" or in another, any kind of relationship, but let's say also romantic relationship with a partner, and not fall into, "I need you to tell me I'm okay. I need you to tell me I'm good enough. I need you to fix me or make me feel better about myself." Neil Sattin: Right. Right. There is that sense of, how do you enter a relationship without either partner feeling like, "Wow. You're here to save me", and whatever that translates into, if it's one partner needing to be the hero of the relationship or one person needing to be the caretaker of the relationship? Shana James: Right, and they're needing to be saved. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Shana James: Then, what is it like to come into a relationship knowing that there's potential for healing and growth without needing to fix or save each other? Right? That to me is a kind of mastery. Can we love each other through these challenging moments of vulnerability for both of us, whatever gender we are? That's one end of the spectrum. Shana James: That to me feels a little bit more like the Yin or a certain kind of foundation of connection, and then, you also mentioned earlier, polarity. Right? Then, how do we keep that spark alive also? Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah, and this is an important place as well because I think the reason that the more stereotypical kinds of frameworks hold so much power is if you're in a relationship where that's not happening at all, then you can hear that and feel like, "That's exactly what's missing. I need that." Whether it's, "I need to be led and opened", like, "I'm tired of making all the decisions", or, "I'm tired of your" whatever it is, or it's like, "Yeah, I need to step more into that powerful presence. For some reason, I've been scared to do that, or I've been holding back because I'm not feeling confident in expressing myself that way." Shana James: Yeah. Right. Neil Sattin: If that's place you're in, and then you hear someone's saying like, "Yeah. Step into your power and lead, and be opened" or whatever it is, then it can be like, "Wow. What a relief!" Like, "Yes, let's do that." Shana James: Right. It gives permission in a way like, "Oh, I can lead and I can take charge, and I don't have to be that asshole I saw my dad be or some other men in the past who were doing it without care for other people." I've definitely seen that help men feel more empowered. Neil Sattin: Right. Yeah, and- Shana James: And, or, but. Neil Sattin: It's like ... Two things come to mind. One is that it could certainly infuse some energy into a situation that that feels stale or stagnant, like where it's just you need something to get the whole thing moving, but on the flip side, there is this question, and this is something I've talked about on my show, you've probably talked about it on yours, of as soon as we're stepping into roles or scripts of how we're supposed to be, that actually can kill the things that create juice in a relationship that are about being in the moment, being spontaneous, owning who you are, which to me, doesn't have anything to do with whether my wife can hold my beard while we're having sex. Shana James: Yeah. Right. You mean that metaphorically? What does holding your beard mean? Neil Sattin: I was just imagining like I've grown out this big beard. I don't have a big beard like that, but it's like just saying, "Yeah", that there's a point where even if we're wearing the costume that we're supposed to be wearing, and presenting the way we're supposed to be presenting, that there's a place where that play will be satisfying, but if you watch the same play over and over and over again, it's going to get old. Shana James: Yeah. Neil Sattin: If you're in that play over and over again, it's going to get old. Shana James: Yeah. It's getting old, or if you're in a play, that I do believe that some fake it until you make it can actually work. Right? It can jump-start the engine let's say, or it can give us access to certain parts of us whether it's in the realm of leading or surrendering our vulnerability that we haven't had before, and it can be a tricky line. Right? Shana James: Like, "When is it faking it until I'm making it, and when is it that I'm just continuing to fake it?", because anywhere I think where we keep doing something because we're supposed to, I mean, maybe that's the heart of it. Right? It's like, "Oh, I am supposed to do this thing", versus, "When I do it, I feel more", and this might take some describing, but like, "I feel more aligned in myself. I feel more alive. I feel more true." Shana James: "I feel more open. I feel more joyous. I feel more vital." Right? Like, "Where is it that we put these roles in as a "supposed to" as opposed to, "I'm going to try on this role", or, "I'm going to put on a new costume and see how does it fit with me. Does it give me more access to my voice, and my truth, and my power, or does it have me feel stilted and constrained?" Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah, and you can come at it from the other angle too where authenticity can also be a trap. Shana James: Yeah. Neil Sattin: Perhaps you've seen this where someone feels like, "Oh, I'm just being me." Shana James: Yes. Neil Sattin: Like, "It's me to not take the initiative ever in bed." Shana James: Right. Neil Sattin: I don't know why we keep talking about bed, but let's just say- Shana James: It's a concrete example. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Sure, and mine is right over there, so I keep looking at it, but yeah. Authenticity can also be a trap, and there's that question of, "How do you be authentic without being held back by your authenticity as its own prescription or role?" Shana James: Right. Neil Sattin: I'm thinking about how you and I even met. Shana James: Yeah. Neil Sattin: I can't remember if we spoke about this in the episode that we did together for the Relationship Alive Podcast. We may have addressed it, but Shana, you were coaching for the Authentic Man Program, and I saw you in a video, and I thought, "I want to be her friend." That's like the ultra condensed version of the story, but I was in a place where I was married to my first wife, and really unhappy, and trying to figure out why I was so unhappy. Shana James: Right. Neil Sattin: That was how I came across Authentic Man Program. Shana James: Right. Neil Sattin: I was thinking about that as I was pondering this conversation that we were going to have, and thinking like, "Right. We came to know each other in this realm of not putting on anything fake, like learning how to be present, learning how to give attention in a way, where you're not losing yourself, learning how to stand in who you are." Shana James: Yeah. Right. When I think about the Authentic Man Program and all the work I've done with men and you've done with people, I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but there is a paradox or an overlap or a something between helping, for me, helping support men to find their authenticity, and I guess I probably have a bias or a belief that authenticity is not ... What did you say? Something about like never making decisions, or like that authenticity is not a lack of energy, or a lack of life force in me. Shana James: I think I have a bias or a belief that authenticity is a kind of fullness of life force and that that could be sadness, that could be anger, that could be joy, but that ultimately, there is this sense of, "When I check in with myself, I feel good about the choices I'm making, I have access to create what I want to create." Not that I should be creating something or you should be creating something in particular, but that I know that I can create what I want, and so if a man comes and he's ... I've often said this, like some men have more of a heart-based, and some men, there's humor, and other men, there's just intellect that is through the roof, and other men, there's more of like this mysterious quality, and I don't try to steer men toward one way or like a cookie-cutter mold, but more to find what is your unique expression. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that, that there's not this sense that anyone of those things is necessarily bad, though when anyone of those things is running the show, that's where you end up disconnected or you lose access to parts of you that help you connect. Shana James: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Neil Sattin: We're talking about it in this realm of connection, and that's where I tend to dance is like, "Okay. If I'm coming to you and I'm ..." I mean, it's maybe a little easier when you think about like, "I'm angry", or "I'm really sad about something", but I want to even think like, "What if I were really depressed and exhausted?" Shana James: Right. Neil Sattin: "What if I were spent?" This is like stretching what we're talking about a little bit because that is maybe a state where you're not in your energy, in your power. Shana James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Neil Sattin: How do you be authentically that while I'm depleted, but in relationship, how do you bring that so that it is a force that connects you, so even if you're depleted, you're still able to be with the person that you're with? Shana James: I love that. Right, and then it doesn't have to be the most passionate connection or the most exciting connection in that moment, but it might be more of a tender or a quiet connection. I love what you're saying. I just had a thought, which may have flown out of my mind when you said about being depressed or ... It's like ... Right. Shana James: How do ... Maybe there's something in here about, "I'm trying to be something so someone else will want me, or love me, or believe in me", versus, "Oh, I feel depleted right now. I feel depleted right, and I still care about you", or even in a work context. "I feel depleted right now, and I'm still here committed to getting this job done or something", but is there a way that we don't have to hide what's really going on, and at the same time, how do we bring those parts of ourselves in a way that creates more connection rather than pushes someone away? What might be the most authentic thing in that moment is, "Actually, I need some space. I need to move away from you, but I still believe we can do it in a connected way." Neil Sattin: Yeah, which bumps right up against the men need their space kind of mentality, that that's somehow part of the masculine archetype is taking space and going into your cave to figure shit out, and if you don't, now you're what? Shana James: Right. Right. Neil Sattin: I don't know. You've been, you're more feminine because you want to- Shana James: I was going to say a pussy, and I hate when people say that, but it's like I think that is this idea or ... Neil Sattin: Yeah. Shana James: Then, in some realms where I've seen men learn, "Okay. Don't bring your struggles to a woman or to a partner", and again, I see the paradox of if we bring all of our struggles to our primary partner, I think that can create a heaviness and a feeling of like, "Oh, God." We're always going to be struggling together, but if you don't bring anything to your partner, then you don't know each other, and it's all based on this more surface experience to get there. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and you missed the opportunity of pooling your resources with your partner, and sometimes, that one of you is depleted and the other of you carries the weight, and that's not gender-dependent or spectrum-dependent, but that's- Shana James: Right. Yeah. Right, and I- Neil Sattin: Go ahead. Shana James: No, no. You go. Neil Sattin: I was just going to say, so it's a dynamic, and the question for me is, "How do you ...?" Shana James: Yeah. Neil Sattin: When you're talking about polarity, the whole point is to create a dynamism in your connection, so how do you keep things dynamic? Shana James: Yes. Neil Sattin: You don't do it by necessarily being the same way all the time. That's for sure. Shana James: Right. I like that you just went back to, "What's the point?" Right? "What's the why? What are we going for here?", versus I've learned the art of setting context for something. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Shana James: Right? Like, "I'd like to try leading you around for the next 10 minutes because I want to see what it feels like in my body to unapologetically take control while still being connected to you in your heart and what's good for you", versus a lack of context, which is just like, "I want to try taking on this role. I want to lead you around." There's a way I think when we know for ourselves why we're doing something, and when we can communicate it to others, it puts us I think in a deeper place of connection of, "Oh, now we're more on the same team, we're trying something out together, we have a sense of why we're doing what we're doing", and then I think if you have a why, there could be endless number of "hows" to get there, versus, I'm going to focus on, "What's the correct how?" Neil Sattin: Right. Yeah. Shana James: Yeah. Neil Sattin: Yeah. I like that. I like how what you're talking about sounds so collaborative because that's another relationship problem where each person feels like they're alone in their silo to try and figure out how the hell to make a change or make a difference, or like they just got to figure it out. Shana James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Neil Sattin: That can sometimes really feel true when you're in relationship with someone who's a little shut-down and who doesn't want to have the conversation about like, "I don't want to be invited into leading you", or "I don't want to be invited into being led by you". That sounds scary, or, "I'm not even there." Shana James: Right, and that could be a whole another conversation like, "What do you do?" Maybe you've probably ... I imagine you've addressed this in your podcast. What do you do when you have a partner who doesn't feel willing or isn't wanting to stretch, or grow, or expand, or change things if there's something that you're wanting? I mean, that's a whole another ball of wax we could get into. Neil Sattin: It's one thing about I think what we were talking about before we officially started, which is conscious relationship, and how our relationships really do require something different, and this is something I think about a lot because I work with a lot of couples where one of them is in that situation, and the question does come up for me, like, "Does this mean that there are a lot of partnerships that really aren't destined to stay together because one is just going to be on a growth path, and the other one isn't and has no interest?" Shana James: Yeah. Neil Sattin: For me, that balances out with having experienced actually that even that -  even like having a foundation of like, "Yeah. I want to be a better person" - there are times when I don't feel like changing. There are times where I'm stuck in who I am. Shana James: Right. Right. Neil Sattin: There are times where Chloe, my wife, where she will say, point out something that is represents an old pattern of mine, and I'm irritated, and I don't want to do anything about it, so there is space in a situation that feels hopeless if you can stay engaged, and that's really the art of what you're talking about. It's like - How do you show up even then in a way that doesn't become about, "You should be growth-oriented because otherwise, how are we going to have a conscious relationship" that doesn't become that, because now it's just become oddly confining, even though it's about growth and change? Shana James: Yeah. Right. Neil Sattin: I mean, at some point, you got to be able to figure out like, "All right. Are our values aligned enough that we're on this journey together, or are they not?" Shana James: Back to values. Yeah. Yeah. I just did a conversation last week that where we got into ... Right. What are each person's values and how often people don't necessarily know their values. Shana James: I mean, I remember doing some coaching before I got married, and we did some values conversations and where our values were differing and where they were the same and overlapped, and yeah. In some ways, we still ended up getting divorced, and we both I think are on a path of growth, but a different kind of growth, or then we had a kid and all kinds of things started to show up. I think I also want to speak a word to the complicated nature of relationships, and in our culture, it can seem like if you don't stay together with someone, it's a failure, but I'm also aware that now, we're ... I don't know. We're on a different topic in a way of conscious relationship, and what is conscious relationship, or how do we stay connected? Shana James: How do we collaborate? How do we be on the same team? Maybe it's all still ... I think it all still is connected, but also, this idea of how to not get stuck in a stereotypical masculine role as we're becoming more conscious maybe. Neil Sattin: Right. I think where I start to get a little nervous is where these frameworks, as you've been talking about for masculinity, where they potentially become problematic, where they're actually if you're not bringing consciousness to them, then they become the source of problems -  and I can't help but think at the moment of, "#Metoo", and just how much of that is about  - more like this shadow masculinity. Right? Shana James: Then, it's like are we talking about like unconsciously masculine or consciously masculine, because I think the unconscious or the box of kind of cultural definition of masculine is be strong, be powerful, go after what you want, don't apologize. Neil Sattin: Right. Shana James: At the same time, I know a lot of men, especially men who come to me, who have had really loving women in their lives, and they've been taught to be nice, and be good, and not overstep their bounds, and be respectful, and I think it has often put men in a bind like, "Wait. I'm supposed to be strong and powerful and not admit to any weakness. Wait, but then, I'm supposed to be kind, and loving, and caring, and what the fuck do I do now, and how do I actually express myself, or how do I share my needs and desires, let alone, even get them met?", and so I think the next step ... I don't know. Maybe this is arrogant to say or too conclusive, but it feels like there's a step in masculine evolution where, and sometimes the way I talk about it is head, heart and sex or head, heart and balls balance. Shana James: Right? This way of both heart and love and care and sexuality being the dials turned up in a way to a hundred percent. Like I don't know if I give up my heart and my care to be very powerful or sexual or confidence, and then I think men can get out in the world in a powerful way, and co-create or collaborate - versus the false power I see, which is, "I don't feel powerful, so I'm going to try and take because I think that's the only way I could get it." Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. What I like to add if this fits into people's paradigms in that "head, heart, balls" is also your connection to "spirit." Shana James: Totally. I've been realizing that lately, that I'm like, "Oh, it's missing that fourth piece." Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah, and how that fuels your connection to something greater. Shana James: Yeah. Yes. Neil Sattin: You're being part of the whole, how we're actually connected to other beings. Shana James: Yeah. Neil Sattin: It becomes a lot more challenging to do things that are, let's just call it since you did it earlier beautifully, the unconscious masculine. It becomes a lot more challenging to do that if you're aware, if you're conscious of "Oh, we're actually connected, so why would I do that to you?" Shana James: Right. Right. Right. Neil Sattin: Why would I act upon you instead of bringing some ferocity in that still is able to be WITH you? Shana James: Right. Right, and I think some of my favorite experiences of a man's expression of power, they really come with this, there's an intensity like you said or sometimes ferocity, but sometimes just an intensity. An intensity of loving or an intensity of passion, and it's so clear to me that I'm cared about and that they want something good for me too, and yeah. I love bringing in the soul element, because in the soul, in my experience, there isn't really a masculine, feminine. It's more of this pure just being. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah, and it also, like as you were saying that, I started to feel like, "Right", and there's a difference between, "I'm with you so that I can get my needs met" versus, "We're together so that we can get our needs met", and how that changes the dynamic. Shana James: Yes. Neil Sattin: Then, it's not like you were saying earlier, it's not about taking what you need. Shana James: Yes. Neil Sattin: It's about, "How are we going to get this together?" Shana James: Right, which I'm wondering, okay, if we bring that back into this stereotypical masculinization or idea of masculine, whether it's in a business context or a relationship context or a family context, when there is a sense of a man getting his own, that his own needs and desires are valuable, valued, important, and that so is "the other's" needs and desires. I just, I wonder then how that impacts, and how to move beyond like I was saying before, this conflict of, "Wait. I'm supposed to be the rock. I'm not supposed to have any vulnerability. I'm supposed to be nice and take care of others", and I do see this next stepping stone or next evolution of, "Oh, I can be powerfully grounded in myself, value myself, believe in my own self-worth, and also share I feel really vulnerable right now, and I feel moved to tears right now, or I feel really sad that there's something happening in this relationship that it's painful for me, or something I'm not getting that I don't know if I need to get it from you or not, but I'm not feeling loved, I'm not feeling affection, I'm not ..." Those things. Shana James: Right? Can we actually come to the table and, I think express a kind of powerful vulnerability, or that vulnerability itself to me is power. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. I want your opinion on something, and at the same time, let's try to shift our conversation, if we can, to get ... let's see how practical we can get", because I don't know that this is going to be practical, but let's- Shana James: Yeah. Okay. Let's see. Neil Sattin: This is the question. The question is, "Why even talk about masculine and feminine?", because in my experience if two people come together and they're willing to be in who they are to be impacted by each other, to speak to that, and sometimes that "speaking" is the voice, but other times it's how you touch, how you ... It could be anything. Right? It's not just like blah, blah, "We're going to talk about it", but if two people are doing that, that's where the energy is, and it's not necessarily about leading or following. Shana James: Being more masculine. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Exactly. It's actually about what it feels like to be more real, and we got, like I'm somehow back at that authenticity piece. It's just like be authentic with your partner, and there you are. Shana James: Right. Neil Sattin: You're going to find your way into masculine, feminine. I'm just looking inside, like sometimes, you might be more like the tree, or the snowflake, or the squirrel, or the bear, or- Shana James: Or the root of the tree, or the leaves of the tree. Right. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Shana James: Right. If we actually let go of, "I'm supposed to be some way that is either feminine or masculine", would things just take shape in an easier way? Neil Sattin: Yeah. Shana James: Then, I think the question of authenticity though can be so confusing for people because at least from my perspective, we've all been conditioned from such a young age that it's hard to know what's authentic, like what's true for us, but in the context, I found myself saying this recently, like I feel like an explorer. I love to explore dynamics and the inner world and the outer world, and, "What happens if I do this, and how will you react if I do that?" Yeah. I wonder if there's a context of play, and I don't know that I have an answer for this, but I like the idea of taking on experiments and time-bound experiments, and so for those who are in relationship, what might it be like for a day or a week to say, "You know what? I'm going to let go of any ideas of masculine, feminine, anything, and I'm just going to see what I feel moved to do." Shana James: Some of that might be scary. Right? Some of that might feel like, "This is really awkward or uncomfortable, but I'm noticing I feel moved to cry in your arms even though I don't even know if I can, or I'm noticing I feel moved to take you into the bedroom and have my way with you", or like any of those things, man, woman, masculine, feminine aside. That could be a really interesting experiment, and the opposite could be interesting too, or opposite being like, "What if we really put attention on a masculine or a feminine dynamic, and what if we each took on the other?" I don't know that I have any concrete answers, but I think in practical terms, to become an explorer and to see what brings me more energy, and vitality, and excitement, and connection in the moment feels like an interesting way to go for me. Neil Sattin: Yeah. There's something about when you said, "Let's each be the other." Shana James: The other. Neil Sattin: What that sparked in me was, "Right - That makes a ton of sense" because if I'm going to be more feminine, let's say in that context, hanging out with Chloe, then the odds are that I'm going to do it in a way that on some level, I'm looking for - that I feel is lacking. It's almost like if she were to be like, "Tell me how to be a woman. I don't really know", or, "Tell me how to be a man. I don't know what you're missing. I'm just being me." Neil Sattin: Like, "Show me", and I could see that being valuable that there's some potential for it to feel ... Like you got to be in the spirit of play. Shana James: Exactly. Right. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to be in the spirit of being critical or judgmental, or, "I'm going to show you what I've been missing from you, but-" Shana James: Right. Right. What if it's just about me? It's not about what I've been missing with us. It's more like, "Oh, do I let myself ... Shana James: When I look at the whole spectrum of how I could express myself and what I could do and say, where are the places I'm not thinking it's okay to go? For some people, for a lot of people, that's anger. For me, I've also noticed it's joy. I hold back my joy. If someone else feels less joyful than me, I feel a little guilty feeling joy or playful, and I have seen that for other people too, so again, maybe another practical way is starting to consider, and you could do this even with a partner or a friend, like, "Where do I see you holding back from what could be called a 'Natural expression'?", and that with anger, we don't have to take our anger out on someone or blame or attack someone, but at the end of my last relationship, I had this really interesting experience where I started getting a little more frustrated, and at the end, he said something like, "I don't think you're as nice as you think you are." Shana James: I said, "That's totally true actually. I believe you. I try to be nicer than I am, and there are things that bothered me that I don't speak to, and I try to just shove under the rug", because I'm like, "Oh, that's not a big deal." Then, it'll come back out later, but when I went to one of my teachers and I told her that, she laughed and she said, "Actually, I think you're nicer than you think you are." It was just this really brilliant counterpoint where she was pointing out like, "That in my soul, I actually am really loving", and it was my ego or my identity that started getting contracted and started reacting in certain ways, and if I throw all that away, there's this way of like, "Oh, how can I give voice to all of those parts of myself, whether it's nice or not nice, or ...?" Shana James: You know what I mean, and play with that in the spirit of play like you said so that we have more choice, not because now, I'm supposed to be a certain way, but so that we have more choice and freedom to be who we are? Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that we should embody what we want in our partner. I was just postulating that. Shana James: That that could happen. Neil Sattin: Maybe what emerges is that because our idea of what that other is - if it's something we're wanting from our, more of from our partner, then we're going to show it in the way that we've been wanting. Shana James: Yeah. Yes. Right. That could be very interesting. Neil Sattin: That could go for, like you could decide, "I'm going to play in the realm of being more like a tree". Like what is it like to be the grand oak that lives for hundreds of years for the next week, and what kind of perspective does that give me if I bring that to our interactions versus like, "Yeah. I'm going to be the sapling that just grew and is new, and bendy, and playful?" Shana James: Yeah. Neil Sattin: It's a totally different ... You can play with ... I mean, who says you have to be masculine and feminine? You could be any of these things in the spirit of trying out a new repertoire, and it's something that you can do on your own without telling your partner. Shana James: Right. Yeah. I like that. Neil Sattin: If they are tuned in, they might be like, "What are you doing? Why are you standing there with your arms out stretched all the time?" Shana James: I love that. I'm just wondering too as we're wrapping up if there's anything we each feel called to say, and maybe ... I mean, I feel moved to continue exploring this and see if there are anymore practical ways to apply this because I think this has been a very, in some ways, a roundabout conversation, but I like conversations and that it brings up ... It has us question our norms and structures and ways that we've held ourselves and thought we had to be, and somehow, I just felt called to what you said of these ways we think we're supposed to be and, yeah, what it's like to actually let go of. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. Shana James: I'm supposed to be some way, and I could see a lot of the men I've worked with or I've had these responses of like ... I actually had a man recently say, "I let go of being ..." What did he say? "It seems like women really like me for being this kind, gentlemanly person", and he was getting really frustrated, like, "That's not all of me, and I want to have to be good to be liked", and so actually, our next week session I said, "Let's really talk about this. I think this is one of my strengths is to help men move forward and connect in relationship while feeling their own strength and their own power, and their own commitment to their desires and truth, while also being able to connect and still have their care. It's like that balance again between the sex and the heart, or the whatever that kind of passion and heart or strength and heart. Neil Sattin: Yeah. I think what could be really helpful if someone was inclined to do this, and so if you're listening and you're thinking, "How can I get more related to what these guys have been talking about?", I could see listing, "I'm supposed to..." over and over again until you're ... Set a timer for 15 minutes because the first five minutes, you'll get all those things that are obvious, and then if you keep going, you'll start to discover even more about the scripts that you're playing, and it could be, "I'm supposed to be this way or I'm supposed to not be this other way" is another one, and then- Shana James: I love that. I just thought you and I should both do that and post ours and be vulnerable with that. Neil Sattin: Okay. I'll do that. Then, if you're in relationship, it might be great to share that. Shana James: Share that. Neil Sattin: Another twist on that could be, "I think my partner wants me to be..." Shana James: That's a great one. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Again, try to exhaust yourself in terms of what you write, so it's not just the first things that come to you. Shana James: Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's not what you already know - then you surprise yourself. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Right. Right. Then, when you can share that with your partner, there may be things where they're like, "Oh, yeah. I actually do want more of that from you, but I'm seeing how you think you're supposed to be this way," and it becomes a great opportunity for you to be in dialogue about, and to surface the roles that you each think you're supposed to be following. Shana James: Yes. Yes. Yes. I love that. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Shana James: Again, in service of choice more than not supposed to let go of these roles and take on some other role. Right? I think that's the endless hall of mirrors that we can get stuck in sometimes and to feel that sense of choice. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting one because what do you do with like you're supposed to be present? Shana James: Yeah. Neil Sattin: Like I'm going to tell you that in terms of how I see successful relationships, if you're not willing to be present, then you're screwed, like that doesn't mean you can't- Shana James: Right, and that doesn't mean I have to walk around a hundred percent of the time being present. I get to actually say to my partner, "Are you able to be present right now?", or, "Can we have this? When would be a good time?" Neil Sattin: Yeah. Shana James: We do have to be willing to show up for each other I think in that way. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah, so we are being a little prescriptive, but I feel like what we're being prescriptive with are with values that actually allow for a lot of flexibility. Shana James: Yes, versus stereotyped roles and ways we're supposed to be. Maybe we jut brought it all the way back. Neil Sattin: Yes. Shana James: Yes. All right. I think we could do a part two and part hundred. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Shana James: I think we could keep going with this. Neil Sattin: Probably. Shana James: I like this, but for now, that feels like a good place to come to a completion. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shana, it's always great to ... I'm so glad that we're friends and it's such an honor to have you back on Relationship Alive to talk about this. Shana James: Thank you. I love that we're friends too and colleagues, and that you continue to inspire me, and we continue to talk about what it's like to be in relationships and new relationships in our later life, and to grow, and to be on this path of trying to figure out what the hell this is all about, so thank you for doing this with me. Neil Sattin: It's so important. Yeah. Absolutely.  

How to give yourself a competitive edge, build your brand and bring in business through speaking. Deirdre Van Nest shares top speaking tips to win customers. Learn more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet, episode seven. Deirdre Van Nest: Every time you speak you have the opportunity to attract people to you, to build up your brand, to bring in business, or the opposite. Speaker 1: Where the Insurance Pros Meet is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together. Managers, coaches, and producers the very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now here's Mark Miletello, a top one percent producer, manager, and your host of Where the Insurance Pros Meet. Mark Miletello: Welcome back to the show. Today is an exciting day, I promised myself and the listeners that when I started this show, in my opinion the best, the greatest platform for really investment reps or insurance agents of Where the Insurance Pros Meet anyone that's in the financial services industry that I would search out and even have brand new agents, veteran agents, top speakers, top thinkers and minds in the industry, so today we have a very, very special guest. We have someone and let me give you a little background before I give you all the goods. As you may or may not know I'm speaking in Lamp in 2018 for Gamma as a multiple line speaker and I fly in to Chicago and right before I'm going into my rehearsal where they do provide a professional speech coach I'm fortunate enough to sit next to the next speaker that arrived a little bit early and just so happens she is a professional speech coach. To me that was very lucky to build a quick friendship the few minutes we had together I knew this individual was special, I knew that she was on it and I invited her to critique and to come in and watch me, which they didn't really allow but I forced it. I want to welcome a very special guest to the show that in a few short minutes I just really felt could really help our industry in a way, welcome Deirdre Van Nest to the show. Deirdre Van Nest: Aw thank you, Mark. Mark Miletello: Deirdre you're the creator of Crazy Good Talks the Blueprint, a system that teaches financial and insurance professionals how to become crazy good speakers so that they can bring in business and build their brands using speaking. I mean I didn't really know what all that meant until I met you and within a few short minutes, you're molding me into something that's doing a lot better job at what I'm attempting to do. Welcome to the show, I'm excited to have you and what you do for our listeners here. Deirdre Van Nest: I'm excited to be here and it's been a pleasure to help you. You are a quick student. Mark Miletello: What does that mean? Are there some that are not? Deirdre Van Nest: Some are not, yeah. Yes, you are. Mark Miletello: Well thank you and like I said I just realized you're very special. Can you tell me a little bit about ... tell the listener a little bit about your background and maybe they'll get a sense for maybe what I've found in you? Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah you know what I first loved to do is talk for a moment about why I care about helping the industry, particularly when it comes to speaking. I firmly believe that every person, and then this is regardless of what you do for a living, but every person unless we develop a skill set of becoming a compelling speaker, the type of speaker Mark who can get other people to sit up and listen and act we will never truly reach our full potential. I'll never forget, I used to be in a networking group where ... you know those networking groups where you have to a 60 or 30 second commercial every week? Mark Miletello: Yep. Deirdre Van Nest: Ever been a part? Okay. I was in this networking group and every week I was with the same people and people would get up and they'd speak for 60 seconds and there were certain people where as soon as that person stood up everybody tuned out and it really hurt my heart, it really bothered me, because as I got to know these people I thought, well you know that person's really good at what they do and that person really cares about the people in room, but they're not conveying who they are and what they do in a way that gets other people to sit up and listen and want to take action. It didn't matter if they were an A-plus attorney or an A-plus financial adviser or A plus this or that if they're a B minus or C plus speakers it was hurting their career. Does that make sense? Mark Miletello: No absolutely and I think I'm learning more about you every time we meet and talk, but I guess what you do helps ... I mean you even said attorneys, I guess attorneys do a lot of public speaking in the courtroom and things like that. How do you help ... I mean what industries do you find yourself helping most and how did you end up really relating and now that you're a speaker at Lamp of course in front of every general manager, general agent across all boards of financial services and insurance. I mean how did you really connect with our industry? Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah that's a great question so there's a couple of touch points. When I first hung my shingle out in 2008 I just started speaking everywhere I could and the professionals that raised their hands the most saying, "Hey, we're interested in you. We want what you're doing, we want you're helping. We're financial and insurance professionals." In one sense I fell into these industries, these professions, but it's interesting Mark as I've dug deeper I've really developed a love for this industry, for these professions, and for the people in it. As I sat back, and I started thinking okay I know I feel like I've sort of fell into this, but why do I stay here and why do I love it, and why do I feel a passion around it and why is that pretty much the sole focus of anything I do from an outbound perspective? It circled back to this, and you know this you heard my story about when I was 10 years old my mom was killed in a car accident and Mark I literally was kissing her goodbye one moment for what I thought was the night and within four minutes she was gone. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Deirdre Van Nest: My dad was in the car too, we were really blessed that he didn't die, it was touch and go with him and he was out of work for several months and it took him about a year to recover from all his injuries. What that did for me was I lost my innocence in the sense that I realized from that experience and I realized early in that life can change in a snap. As I got older I became a very strong advocate for proper financial planning. Mark Miletello: Right. Deirdre Van Nest: I was the person at 30 who got pregnant with my first child and instead of running off to the fun little store to pick out outfits and furniture I'm dragging my husband to our adviser and making sure we have enough life insurance, I'm dragging him to our attorney making sure all the guardianship and beneficiary stuff is taken care of. Most people don't think like that and I didn't realize that until I started talking to my friends about it. They're like, "That wouldn't have crossed my mind." Mark Miletello: Yeah. Well, thank you for- Deirdre Van Nest: And I was like, "It doesn't?" Mark Miletello: Thank you for sharing your personal story with the listeners and I know that's tough, but I see now that you have a passion for what our products do and with your expertise- Deirdre Van Nest: Yes, I do. Mark Miletello: With you being the guru, you are the foremost thinker of how to speak and a teacher in that realm I mean I do see that passion come out and so I'm excited that you're connected. I'm sorry that that happened of course, but I'm excited that you're connected with our industry and it kind of leads me to another question that kind of left me thinking after meeting you is if I'm not giving a speech, a public speech on stage, would I really need someone like Deirdre Van Nest to coach me and help me and I think the answer yes and I think you've kind of ... I was able to listen, I wanted to sit through your whole rehearsal and I wasn't able to do that because of my flight, but I did catch one little, and I'm going to try to squeeze that out of you for our listeners, one little tip that you were giving maybe a couple tips, but I do think that there's some validity to increasing your ability speak, finding your voice can help you even if you're not giving a stage public speaking event. Correct? Deirdre Van Nest: Absolutely. This is where I feel like I'm hoping the profession will veer towards and start changing is that you speak at seminars, right? That's kind of what everyone thinks right now in the industry is, "Oh speaking is seminars," and I would like to broaden the perspective and offer that speaking is anytime you're in public. That means outside of your own home opening your mouth and talking to let's say two, three, or more people. Mark Miletello: Right. Deirdre Van Nest: Because every time you speak you have the opportunity to attract people to you, to build up your brand, to bring in business or the opposite, to push people away or just have them be neutral to you. We are in what I believe the communication age, there are so many people vying to be heard and so to have a skill set where you can cut through that and you can be compelling and inspire I don't think that skill to have, I believe it's a critical practice development tool. Mark Miletello: Well that's exactly where I was going with it, is that's what I left feeling is that ... and you just hit the nail on the head as you would and should. Every time you're speaking to two or more or even to one person, but two or more people especially that's a speaking engagement that you should be on your game. I'm excited to kind of dive more into this. As you may or may not know Deidre this show I kind of connect it to the professional athlete and if you recall in the rehearsal one fellow said, "People in our industry earn professional athlete type incomes." Deirdre Van Nest: Yes. Mark Miletello: But my concern in a leadership role is that we don't practice like professional athletes, you know. We go out and do our hobbies, we golf and fish and whatever, play sports and we have our hobbies but we don't look at our own profession. That's a lot of the drive behind Where the Insurance Pros Meet is to have something where you can ride down the road and you can listen to, but it reminds you from the greats as well as you telling us is how you become better is practice, it's learning, it's continually developing and so to me what was kind of neat about meeting you is it reminded me I've never really put any work ... I've never been involved in Dale Carnegie courses or another speaking so it's kind of neat to connect our listeners to someone like you that I think could really help them because you had a lot of good tips before I left early to catch my flight, you had a lot of good tips and one of them that I thought was very interesting is how you can plug yourself into speaking gigs or arrangements or connections or networks. Would it be too much to ask you how or to tell us how to do that if maybe we don't have anything on the agenda for a speaking? Deirdre Van Nest: No, I think that's great. I think what you're alluding to is I made this comment that speaking is not just for seminars. Right? The broad vision is that anytime you're speaking, like we just said, to two, three, or more people you're speaking, you're public speaking. Then the other strategy I offered up as if you're having seminars and they're successful great, keep doing that, but I would also invite you to recognize that there are places in your community where you could get booked at other people’s events in front other people's audiences, and what's beautiful about that Mark is that most people in this profession complain about seminars and rightly so because they're expensive to put on in terms of all the mailing and the postage that goes into it. Then there's the meal, maybe the chicken lit dinner, the steak dinner, whatever it is, and then there's the whole stress about getting people there. It's not an easy thing to pull off and what if you could eliminate that by speaking to a ready-made audience? Mark Miletello: Coattails. Deirdre Van Nest: That's something that professional speakers like me, right professional speakers like me we know, we do this all day long, but that's something the more I bring this up to different financial advisers and insurance agents they're like, "I never really thought I could play in that arena," and you can. Mark Miletello: Okay. Deirdre Van Nest: I just want to even put that idea out there is that you can play in that arena. Mark Miletello: Okay give us one idea. Deirdre Van Nest: Let me give you an example. Mark Miletello: Thank you. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah so one client, and I think I might have mentioned this to you, I was thinking of client of mine who is an insurance agent, he and his family own their own independent company and he has the specialization of working with daycare providers. We're like okay, well let's just build a presentation for that group and then let's pitch it and market it to them. We have this presentation, now quite frankly that presentation isn't largely different than it would be for any other business owner, but you put the word daycare provider in there when he tells stories he talks about his other clients that are daycare providers. Right? So that you're customizing the words and the language and then you start to think about where do the daycare providers hang out? Let's check out their association. Right? Then you would go, and you would apply to speak at one of their association events. If there are local chapters that they belong to you would talk about having them bring you in. I know that he got brought into a daycare center not necessarily to talk to the owners because there's only one owner, but the different staff that works there. Right? Mark Miletello: Yeah. Deirdre Van Nest: If you pick a couple of niche markets, maybe you work with chiropractors, maybe you like vets, maybe you like dentists. Mark Miletello: Whatever your niche is. I get it. Deirdre Van Nest: Exactly. Whatever your niche is. Mark Miletello: I tell you coming home and on the flight, that's probably what stuck with me the most of what a great concept that was and I had to have it on our show because in a leadership role I've gone with my agents and we've spoken at realtor meetings and we do certain break out speeches that are kind of impromptu but I kind of thought what about looking at what our niche is. Let's just say our niche is farmers or chiropractors. Let's just say it's farmers, then I never thought of taking and going to their organization ... I've thought about going to their organization and trying to connect and relate and be in the backroom and shake hands but I never thought about trying to get on their agenda because I know when you put on a meeting number one you have people coming in that throw a little money at you to take up 10 to 15 minutes of a sponsored lunch, things like that, and also sometimes you just want good information for the speech and I just never thought of that and I think that listeners hopefully could have a light bulb go off like I did and say there's so many niches that you could go after based on whatever company or organization you represent and you don't have to ... because I've thought about doing seminars and at one time did them, but thought about them over the last few years but when I start putting together the time, the effort, the pieces, the invitations, the mail outs, whatever all those things I find a lot of times that was a fleeting thought that fades away very quickly. Deirdre Van Nest: Yes, I understand that. Mark Miletello: When someone else is doing all that and you're plugging yourself into that I thought that was just a brilliant concept, Deirdre. Deirdre Van Nest: Good, good. Go after it. Here's the thing if you decide to go after it, with the putting together of your own seminar the easy thing is deciding you're going to do it and then all the work comes into doing it. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Deirdre Van Nest: With going after other ones your job is going to be reaching out to enough people. Right? And staying after them and following up with that. That's where the work will be is in staying persistent. Mark Miletello: Well you know- Deirdre Van Nest: And following up with them. Mark Miletello: We took off a fast start, we gave the listeners I think what I really, I walked away after just a few minutes of knowing you with that valuable thought. We kind of jumped right forward without really asking you, how did you get involved in coaching with Crazy Good Talks which is a name I love, crazygoodtalks.com. Deirdre Van Nest: Thank you, I love it too. Mark Miletello: I've been to your website, it's awesome. I kind of skipped over you right at the first so I apologize, I'm gonna back up which I don't normally do. Deirdre Van Nest: Oh, that's okay. Mark Miletello: How did you kind of get into this and when did you find out you're really good at helping people learn to speak and maybe you speaking yourself? Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah, I'll tell you what, this is by accident as well. I was terrified to speak. In 2008 I was certified as a fearless living coach, okay? My specialty was helping other business owners get past the fears and excuses that were holding them back in their business. I would work with financial advisers, insurance agents, chiropractors, attorneys, pretty much anyone who had a service-based business. I was out there marketing myself one by one, going to the networking groups like what we were talking about earlier and meeting people that way. Then I just kept hearing, "Deirdre, you really should go out and speak because that's the best way to grow your businesses." I thought no way, no way no how, I had a really bad experience in my ninth grade acting class where my acting teacher told me I stunk. Mark Miletello : Me too. Deirdre VanNest: It broke my heart, Mark. From that moment, I was 14 years old, I left the stage. When I say left the stage I didn't act any longer and I didn't speak in public for 24 years. I never wanted to hear those words, "You stink," again. When someone said, "You should speak," I was like, "Not happening," then what happened was it was kind of like the lesser of two evils. I became more afraid of not growing my business and not helping people with this message that I had than I became of speaking and, so I just forced myself to get out there and do it. Okay? Fast forward a couple of years later and I've actually gotten good at it and I'm actually helping people and I'm actually getting paid for it, but what's not happening is I'm not bringing in clients from the back of the room and at the time that was a really big part of my model was bringing in clients from the back of the room, so I didn't have to run around to all these one on one coffee meetings all the time. Right? So, I thought I got to crack this code so someone knows how to do this, it's just not me. Who knows how to do this? I started studying with some industry gurus and became certified by Craig Valentine as a certified, world-class speaking coach, I worked with another woman Lisa Sakovich who was just a guru upselling from the stage, started using some of what they taught me, then started tweaking it for my own style and trying my own things, and then my clients at the time were asking me if I could share what I was learning about speaking with them. Just kind of like casually and I was like, "All right, yeah. I'll give you some tips on what I'm trying." I was doing that and then I had one client, I'm going to tell you this is the results not typical. One client, it was a husband and wife team, they went and gave a presentation, and this was in I think this was 2011, it might have been early 12, it was 11 or 12. They gave a presentation and within an hour they had signed up 103 new people, prospects to come into their office from one 60 minute presentation. She and I, we were all blow away, we were all blown away. The wife Becky was like, "Deirdre, you have to do this. I don't care what you're doing, but you need to formalize this and start teaching other people," and I was like, "Yes, I do. You are right, this is amazing." I was so excited by their results it actually saved their business. Then that's what happened, I started systematizing things and I started creating a process, I started getting out there and I was out there a lot myself too. I'm out there in the trenches doing the same thing that I'm teaching which is what I still do Mark to this day. Then the brand Crazy Good Talks we came up with that branding a couple of years ago and that was an evolution of time. Right? Of working with different people and helping me figure out the branding, but I do love it because it's fun and that's what it does, it helps people become crazy good so it's just sort of progressed to this point. Mark Miletello: Well you are great and you're a great person and we're glad that you overcame that class. I kind of had a similar story where I could not say two words in front of a group and I said, "I've got to fix this," so yeah thank you. I'll tell you, in our industry especially professional athletes they fumble every now and then. Sometimes they get mulligans sometimes they don't. Well in our industry because you don't make mistakes. When you're on stage you're flawless, so tell me maybe what you think the biggest mistake that most advisers, agents make when speaking. Let's get into some meat that really, we can bite down onto that could help somebody. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah, that's great. I'm sure I make mistakes too, I am not perfect. The last thing I ever want to paint is that picture. Mark Miletello: You're right, I shouldn't do that. That's extra pressure. Deirdre Van Nest: It's extra pressure, exactly. Let me give you a couple of quick wins that you can go and use. The biggest mistake is that most financial insurance professional rely too heavily on their technical expertise alone to deliver their message, Mark. That type of message or language tends to be boring for the consumer and it tends to not be sticky, it tends to be just a lot of facts and figures thrown at people and not have the elements of a presentation that help make it memorable and emotional. The key to really fixing that problem is to be sure to weave stories and analogies and activities throughout your content. Mark Miletello: You watched my rehearsal. I think I tried to do that, I tried to make it more about the storytelling than the facts and figures. I think that's exactly what you're saying is to ... you even kind of helped me understand, which I knew it as well as the others that were watching me, I knew that I was turning my head and looking too much at my own information. The less information that you plaster on the wall the less you're going to be tempted to turn around and look at it more than you're connecting with the audience. I agree I think we must have more stories. We talked about a mistake that they make, what about ... can you give us like a quick win like a strategy that listeners can use right away to make the best that they can with what they have? You know, make their next speech better. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah, this is my favorite tip to teach because it's one of those small things that makes a big difference and it's something your listeners could use the moment they stop listening to the podcast. Here it is, the most important part of the presentation is the opening. The reason for that is that's the time frame that people are going to decide if they're going to tune you in or tune you out. Okay? You only have about five to 30 seconds to capture their attention and if what you're saying isn't anything more interesting than what they can find on their phone your talk is toast. What's interesting Mark is that if you can grab people right away they are likely to stay with you for the entire presentation, but if you lose them, in the beginning, you're going to work doubly hard to get them back. You've probably been to presentations where's that happened, where like they start snoozing you in the beginning and you're like, "Oh man," right? And then you're off to the races. Mark Miletello: You can tell from right off the bat, I agree. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah. Mark Miletello: I went to your website and I watched all the free tips that I could grab off of their which I think we’re really informative, but that's one of the few things you said to me when we met for just a few minutes before my rehearsal and its really kind of gotten me to thinking about is my beginning powerful enough? I've gone back to the drawing board and thinking how can I make that really connect in a way? I think you're right, it's real helpful but maybe you can give us an example of how we can do that. Deirdre Van Nest: Absolutely, absolutely. There are two strategies that I love for grabbing your audience's attention from the first words out of your mouth. The first strategy is to open by immediately asking them a question. Okay? The question should do three things, it should be related to your content in some way, it shouldn't just be some random question, it should be related to what's coming and the topic. It ideally would get them nodding their heads yes in agreement with you and then the third is it should get them thinking about themselves, the audience thinking about themselves. For an example, tell me what are the benefits that the listener will receive from taking your advice? Mark Miletello: What are the benefits ... in the meeting they're more informed of what their coverages are so personally maybe they should consider doing business with us but to be able... they're not a licensed insurance agent but they can say, I do know this, and I know a person that you should talk to because looking at your current policy or moving to this new home you might need to talk to a professional that I know. The benefit is educating them to make them think that you are the go-to person regardless of price. A real estate in town do we shop around and find out who has the lowest fees, or do we go to the most well-known person that we feel will do the best job? That's I think the ultimate reason we would speak to a group of realtors is to become the expert in the field and I need your help to be a better speaker so that I can look better in front of them. Deirdre Van Nest: Got it, got it. You could do something like your point is, hey we want to educate you so that you have the best information and you're not going out and price shopping people. Right? Mark Miletello: That's right. Deirdre Van Nest: Your question could be to them; your opening question could be something like how do you feel if your own clients' price shop you or how would you feel if a client- Mark Miletello: Chose their realtor based on commission rate. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah, exactly. Yes, if you lost a listing based on the commission or if you lost a listing because your competitor was willing to list for one percent less or half a percent less. Mark Miletello: Right, that'll get their attention. Deirdre Van Nest: Right and they're gonna be like, "I wouldn't like that, I don't like that." That's how you should be looking at this, in this industry. Maybe you're going in there because you're educating them, and you want to equip them so that they're the trusted adviser to their clients who have all the answers about their home buying experience. Maybe your angle is would you rather your clients see you as their real estate agent or a part of their trusted advisory team? Mark Miletello: Right. Deirdre Van Nest: "Oh trusted advisory team." Mark Miletello: I guess my feeble attempts at funny jokes is not the way to open a meeting, huh? Deirdre Van Nest: I guess it depends on how funny the joke is. Mark Miletello: Yeah, I guess so. Deirdre Van Nest: I was going to give you the second strategy. Mark Miletello: I'll take it. Deirdre Van Nest: That's the first strategy is to open with a question. The second strategy is to just jump right into a story. You could open with a story and so let's say you're talking to those same realtors, maybe the story is about a realtor who used to work with another agent and now they're working with you and what their experience has been. Maybe it's what I call your Why Story, why you're even in this business and why you care about the realtor relationship. Kind of like I told you my Why Story earlier. Mark Miletello: Yeah, things are going through my mind right now of how I could have spoken in front of the realtor group and maybe had other realtor’s endorsements and talk about how those relationships have evolved. Yeah, it's good stuff. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah. Then if you're going to jump right into a story my recommendation isn't just say, "Oh I'm gonna tell you a story," you could just start by saying, "It was May 24, 1980, beautiful spring night in Chappaqua, New York," or you could say something like, "I want to take you back to the fall of 1992," or "I want to introduce you to my client Mark. Mark was a blah, blah, blah," right? Those are story starters if you will. Mark Miletello: No one’s getting up and leaving when you start like that. Deirdre Van Nest: No, they're not. Mark Miletello: I want to hear. Deirdre Van Nest: And you've got their attention, exactly, you've got their attention. Mark Miletello: Well I love the nugget that you gave us about how to interject, implant ourselves in someone else's efforts of either networks or events or seminars. I love the advice, the professional advice that you've given us. I felt so privileged that I had a few minutes to meet you and know you and to have you watch me rehearse. To me just really the things that you've said have given me more confidence, I'm going in a better direction than I was without you. If other people ... and I don't want it to stop there, I do want to continue getting better and there are several ways to do that, but one is to connect with you in a better way. As we kind of wind down this show how would I work with you more, how do I reach you, what do I need to do to take the next step into learning the things that you've already taught me to build off that? Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah great question. There's a couple of different options. I think the best step is to subscribe to Crazy Good Talks TV. That's something that was just launched and it's a weekly video episode specifically for financial advisers and insurance agents. Mark Miletello: Nice. Deirdre Van Nest: Each episode, yeah yeah, each episode has a strategy on how to either be a better speaker or how to grow your business for speaking, how to market yourself, get books for speaking, all things building your business and your brand through speaking. Then each episode also comes with a downloadable template, worksheet, cheat sheet to help you implement that week's lesson. That's a great first step and that's great for readers or advisers and agents and to get that you just got to crazygoodtalks.com/tv. Then the other option is one of the things that I do a lot of is keynoting at conferences and individual companies will hire me to come in and do training for their advisers and agents. If you're a leader listening, and you're interested in something like that just shooting me an email, likewise if you're an individual producer and you're interested in learning this skill set for yourself I do have a 12-month Crazy Good Talks training program where I will teach you step-by-step the ins and outs of how to become a crazy good speaker and how to really build your brand and bring in business through speaking. If either one of those things interests, you I think just sending me an email Mark to D-V-N so Deirdre Victor Nancy@crazygoodtalks with an S .com. Mark Miletello: Well that's crazy exciting, I think that of course you're gonna be on a platform speaking at Lamp in front of all the industry greats and as well as the show will reach a very broad audience including managers and anyone that wants to host a meeting I think you would be a valuable addition like I said in the short amount of time I've known you I feel like I've learned a lot and I feel like I owe you something. I guess you need to invoice me, but- Deirdre Van Nest: No, you are very kind. I'm thrilled to be here. Mark Miletello: It really is, just those few little things when someone is trying to get better at something that is not their forte and yeah, you're saying, "Well Mark you're hosting a radio show so ..." well you know I'm just having fun, I know I can be better at even doing this and every show I get better. But more importantly than that Deirdre is I want to be able to go to my next meeting, I want to go into that and now I can teach my agents how to connect with niche markets that we have, and I can assist them and maybe be the guy that stands up until they feel the confidence and find their voice or help them find their voice. Deirdre Van Nest: Yeah. Mark Miletello: I see a lot of application in what you do and if I wouldn't have sat next to you or if I wouldn't hear you speak I probably wouldn't realize the value of how much we need that to be better at that type of talent. I just want to thank you for agreeing to come on the show Where the Insurance Pros Meet and thank you for your time. Deirdre Van Nest: Thank you for having me, it's been a pleasure. Mark Miletello: Absolutely and if you like what you hear go to iTunes, rate and review the show so that others can find it. You can follow me of course on MarkMiletello.com and you will be able to connect via the show on my website on the podcast link, you'll be able to connect to Deirdre Van Nest. Thank you again and we will see you at the next show.

Routinely, these are the most common ways we'll increase the perceived value of our offers... Hey, what's going on everyone? This is Steve Larson and you're listening to Sales of Funnel Radio. Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio where you will learn marketing strategies to grow your on-line business using today's best internet sales funnels. Now, here's your host, Steve Larson. What's going on everyone? I am a kid at heart. What can I say? I'm going to be that way on purpose till I die. Do not make me into an adult. Hey, all right it's like 10:00. I've got three nights left before I'm going to go fly to Dallas, which I am super excited about. I am going to speak at Danny Vega's and James Smiley's B2B Mastermind, which, I am super excited about. It will be awesome. But I am up tonight and I am thinking through like the different things I am going to give and offer there and I am pumped about it. Ultimately I am going to do the same to you guys ... You know, if you want it. It's almost sad, I am putting the slides together, I'm putting together what I am going to deliver and put up there. It will be a three hour presentation, which I am really excited about, be fun. Anyway, I am thinking through a lot of the different funnels that I have built over the last little while. I am way past 300 funnels built in the last year and half. I have no idea how many it is now. I mean, it's huge. Anyway, I lost count. I know that, like there is one project once that was 82 funnels alone. I mean so honestly it could be in the 400's. I have no idea. I know that it is a crap ton. I was thinking through all the funnels. It was actually a lot of fun. Anyway, I think it was two weeks ago, I built a membership funnel live. A lot of people don't know you can build member areas inside Click Funnels that are amazing and frankly I still think that it's the best even out of Kajabi even out of all the other member area places, I still think that the Click Funnels ones are the best because it is still geared toward you continuing to be able to sell more and more and more. There is a lot of stuff that you can do inside member areas to increase your revenue even inside the member area that I don't know that you can do inside of other places. Anyway, lot of fun stuff. Went great. So I build the member's area live. It was, we had about 35-ish people watch the entire four and half hours while I built it live. And it was really fun because they could get there and they could interact with me. I did that for a live webinar funnel probably about a month ago and I just built out the entire thing live again, which, is a lot of fun. And I am going to do it again. I thought I would invite you guys to come along and join if you want to. It's one of the things that I will be giving and offering over to this mastermind too, in Dallas, which I am really pumped about. The pressure is on though. Man, got three days. It will be awesome. Just want to make it awesome, so ... December 2nd, what I am going to be doing is I am going to be building an application funnel. A high ticket coaching application funnel. Could be a coaching funnel. Could be some kind of application funnel. Could be high ticket product funnel. Could be whatever, whatever it is where someone has got to send or submit in an application. I am going to be building that funnel type. I'll show you three different strategies I have used as well. It has been kind of fun. I launched one of these of my own about a week ago in a different industry and it's going really, really well. I was able to pioneer a few different things that I am going to show you guys and it's working. It's been so cool to see it work. Oh, my gosh. Stuff I've never seen and even know what to do before. Anyway, if you guys want to go and watch it live and participate and things like that. It'll be at SalesFunnelBroker.com/live. SalesFunnelBroker.com/live... That is where you can register. I set it up just like a webinar on Zoom, but you guys can be on there, live with me and actually ask questions as we go through the whole thing and it's a lot of fun. Last group, anyway I know they learned a lot. I learned a lot. It was a lot of fun. I build from literally the ground up. Start from absolutely scratch and just show a lot of my different design principles and strategies. Things that are really fast. I build the whole thing together usually ahead of time. Try to have some assets together so that I'm not just filling in the blanks with dummy texts and things like that. It's great. Anyway, so plan on about four hours if you guys want to come watch, it's Saturday morning usually starting about 8:00 in the morning. 8:00 or 9:00 something like that Mountain Standard Time. You guys can jump on and watch. If you are listening to this episode and it is past December 2nd, for you and I guess for everyone else. I am going to be restructuring Sales Funnel Broker as I've, as I've ... It's great. I've tried to make it as a cool resource, a place that people could just download cool funnels. Some of them for free, some of them for paid. Show some of my other resources I use as I, you know that I used to funnel build with, but I need to revamp it. You know. I launched that before I even started podcasting so, I mean it's been out there for like a year and half. There is a lot of stuff I got to go update. I've got some cool ideas for it. I'm going to be selling some more ... Okay, just think about this for a second. I have built a ton of sales funnels in the last year and a half alright and I built funnels well before working for Russell on WordPress, which is terrible in different ways. On my own with Click Funnels during and it's been awesome. But, there are repeatedly the same funnels that I build over and over and over again that just kill it. Some of them in no matter what industry and some of them in very specific industries. What I was thinking is I've been listing out this huge list of funnels that I build over and over and over again. Why would I not build them from ground up with you guys so you can see how to do it and then at the end I will sell the share funnels as well as the recording with it. As well as, I always make these really in depth PDF maps so you can see what is going on, on each page. Why I do what I do, where it's hooking into. The automation behind it. Is there any third party stuff. Am I hooking stuff up with Zappy or how do I? I mean all the stuff that I am doing. And I want to be able to do and deep dive those things with you guys so that you've got even more power behind you on building these things. Anyway that's what's been going on this last little bit. It's been a whole lot of fun. I have been building. I just built an application style funnel. That one took me a couple of weeks 'cause I had to go film stuff and anyway it's been, but it was a lot of fun. There is a new take on the application itself funnel that I haven't really put out there before and it's been awesome. I kind of made it up. It's been working and it's in a different industry. It's been awesome but, anyway, been cool. Anyway, bit of a plug there... Whatever it's blatant and I hope you guys join. Hey, so, what I want to talk through real quick is the application style funnel. All right and real quick, so I don't know wherever you are or whatever but if you want to draw a value ladder. Right. At the bottom of a value ladder, and if you guys have never drawn before or this is your first time on the episode, or whatever it is at the very bottom of, like, lets, so the very lowest step. Let's say if you drew three steps of some stairs. On the very first step there that's typically where we have like a lot of free shipping stuff there. Free stuff in general. Free, free, free, free, free. Like lots of free stuff. Somewhere, usually between the first and the second stair step, personally that's where I draw. Like I call it the money barrier. When you break the money barrier, that's when you actually start to sift out actual customers versus freeloaders. Okay? It's super important. Something you always want to do. I put out lots of content for free. But eventually I sift you guys out. Who is it that is actually willing to pay to play? Who is actually willing to pay to learn and actually run fast with the people who are sprinting into certain industries. You know what I mean? Like, you've got to do the same thing. Pump tons of free content out there or whatever it is and then eventually you've got to have this barrier where you charge someone some money. Right? Then typically in the middle of the value ladder what I do is have a $1000 to $2000 product. Somewhere in that area. Right? That kind of becomes the core of the business. That's actually where I start. I start. When I start at, I only have you know. I'm doing my best to have one value ladder at a time. I know I did an episode a little while ago on that, but I try and do one value ladder where I start in the middle of the value ladder. I actually don't start at the bottom. I don't start by giving away free plus shipping things or the little tiny front end products or the little tiny. I'll start by giving out free lots of content and publishing. But I actually don't start selling stuff, you know, I start with the $1000 to $2000 range in any business. Because, you know when I am consulting or my own self or whatever it is, because it does not take many $1000 to $2000 sales to make a dent in the wall. It does not take many $1000 to $2000 sales to give you awesome profit to dump back into ads. How many $7 products do you got to sale to actually make a profit? A ton. Right? I would rather the market tell me what to create on those front end products. I don't want to guess. That's super risky. Seen a lot of people waste a lot of time on lower front end products. They don't work. It's a huge shame. I mean cause you just wasted all that time. You know so, what I do is start with the middle of the value ladder and then what I do is I typically also. Number one, start in the middle. Number two I go to a high ticket product in the back end. I don't go to the front end yet. This is the order in which, what should I call it. This is the order to create products on the value ladder. This is the order to do it. That I've seen work the best that I've done many times. Number one I start in the middle. Number two, I go back to the high end stuff. At least $5000. Right? $10,000, $15,000, 25 grand, in that range. You know, at least 5k though. Okay I guarantee, I mean if you've got any value at all you've pumped into the market place you could charge five grand for an event and get a few people to come in. That's actually how Russell started by selling those events. It actually started in events. He did that. He sold an event for $5000 and got two people to pay and was like, "What the heck? That's so cool." Number one, start with the core, number two you do kind of the back end. Number three, that's when I start creating front end products. That's when you start creating your little $7 things. Your $27 things, your $50 your $100 things, maybe even up to $300 things. If you start by, you know it's funny when you read the book Dotcom Secrets a lot of times what it makes you think is that you need to start the creation for your business the order is to create them is that you start with those front end things and that's just not how you do it. If you do it that way you are guessing. It's a lot of volume you've got to go through to actually make that thing convert before you've got to keep tweaking it before it actually. I mean even Russell himself when we launched those when we launched our own funnels. Most of the time round one they are not usually not successful out of the gate. Okay. It's usually when we make the second tweak. The first tweak the second tweak that's when they get wildly profitable. And Russell is Russell Brunson. He's I ... Second to him I have probably built more funnels than anyone I know. Any guru I know. Anyone. Like period, but he's number one though. He's done it, way, more than I have. Does that make sense? Like that's crazy. Even for him. Okay. If you look at how click funnels did stuff as well. Click funnels started by selling $1000 product called Funnel Hacks. Then it went into events and higher ticket things in the background. And then started creating things like Dotcom Secrets and front end things and Funnel Swag and Frontal U and Frontal Graffiti and all these front end products that all lead into the same thing. Does that make sense? For whatever reason it gets like it's sexy in someones head to do it the other way around or we start there. Don't start there. Do that last. Do that last when, when ... 'Cause here's what is going to happen. When, you start selling $1000 product, when, you start selling something that is thousand bucks, right? Or $2000 or whatever it is. The core of your business. I'm not saying it has to be that. But it's got to be enough money where it doesn't take many of them to really make a dent. Right? ... Where, you can dump huge profits back into ads. Right? When you start doing that you are going to get feedback in the form of complaints. It's just part of it. I remember the first time that ever happened for me. I was like why the heck are you complaining about this? "I wish you did X, Y, and Z. I wish you did this. Blah. Wipe my butt." You know and I was like, "Oh, my gosh. Are you serious?" What's going to happen is you are going to start to get feedback in the form of complaints. Now it is your job as the entrepreneur to sift the complaints and you want to sift them into two different groups. You are going to sift the complaints number one into feedback for how to tweak your existing offer. Okay. You might be getting these complaints and you're like, "Crap". Wait they are right. I should change X, Y, and Z. I need to tweak this thing. All right. That is what Russell is doing. That is what he and I are doing. Typically, when we launch something and we've got to tweak it the first round or two we are listening to our customer feedback and we're like "Crap. Let's sift these things. Okay? Let's go and et's tweak the offer. Let's make it even better." Right? The second thing though. The second category you gotta look for is, is when you can sift these customer feedback items and their telling you what to go and create on the front or back end of your value ladder. They are letting you know. The market is telling what it is that you need to go and create. Okay? These front end products are being created by the customer who bought your middle tier product. That make sense? Let me say it again. Your front end products, typically the most successful ones I've ever seen. Typically, the ones, their being created third. The customer is telling you what they want you to create. They don't know they are doing that but that is what their doing. We're taking all those pieces of feedback and we're saying you know what? People wish they had shirts with our logo on it. Let's make Frontal Swag. You know what? People are telling us that they wish that they had something to help them write their copy. Front End Scripts. Right? We didn't start with front end products like that. We started with the mid and I personally do that as well. I start with the middle area of the value ladder at least $1000. When I get that core down when I get it converting. "Psssh." You've got yourself an ATM machine. You've got a cash machine... Then you make an application style form on the back end selling your one-on-one coaching, you're done for your stuff, your implementation styled products. Right? Don't put implementation styled products. Don't put coaching. Don't put one-on-one stuff in the core area. Don't put yourself in the fulfillment of the core of the value area. You put that in the back end. That is why I am going to build an application stype funnel with you guys. That's why I am doing that. If you want to come join me and watch me do it. Right. Get your questions answered then come watch. SalesFunnelBroker.com/live. You can watch the whole thing. I'll do the whole thing. You can watch for free. You know and follow along. You can do whatever you want anyway, but then I am also going to have for sale the actual funnel themselves as well as the training as well as a whole bunch of other stuff. It's just going to be awesome. Action sequences, a whole of bunch of other cool things I am going to toss in there for you. Then what I do is I build front end products. Front end funnels. Front end things that can with the only intent. You're not trying to make money on them. The only intent is to recoup ad costs and get customers for free so that anything they do on the middle of the value ladder and on the back of the value ladder is pure profit. Does that make sense? This is like value ladder strategy and it always irks me just a little bit when I see someone. I'm like no. Don't start with the front end product. I'm not telling you, you can't make money but, you gotta sale a crap load of those things to make a difference in your wallet. I got so animated I just threw my pen. Oh, almost landed in the trash can. Anyway, so hopefully that helps. That is all I am trying to say with this whole thing. I've built a live webinar funnel, live. I built the membership area funnel, live and a lot of cool strategies that showed how to use them in affiliate areas too, which is crazy cool. Then I am going to do an application style funnel as well. All of these are going to be available shortly on SalesFunnelBroker.com. If you want it, go check it out. I've got three requests in a single hour to build someones funnel. There is no way I can handle it out. There is no way I am going to try to. Honestly, it would be a disservice if I did try to. It'd be a disservice to all the people that I said. You know that I would say yes to. The way that I am getting around it is still building the kick butt totally rockin' funnels that I do know how to build but do it live with you guys in a template where can go do the same thing you are trying to do with it. You know what I mean? That's why I am trying to do these things live. For a while, I've got a huge list of funnels guys. You guys have join me for a while. I'm. If you want to keep going back to SalesFunnelBroker.com/live periodically, I'm just going to be building funnels live for quite a while. You guys can still come in. You can still grab them. I am going to be updating a lot of cool stuff and sharing things. It's the latest and greatest. Things that. Stuff that I know no one else is doing. Because we either pioneered it or I made it up or I figured it out or we made it up. Or whatever it is. Anyway, I'm excited. If you want to join you can. Please adhere to funnel strategy that we know works the best. Or I should say value ladder strategy. This is the order to build products on a value ladder. Number one mid tier, not front end. Mid tier, mid product, mid priced at least thousand bucks. Number two, go towards the back of the value ladder. Go at least $5000 on something. Coaching and event. Some kind of done for you application. Some kind of implementation. That is where we do that, higher up on the value ladder not towards the bottom. Number three, then we do the actual market driven front end products. Not from us with the sole intent to recoup ad costs. Anyway, I feel like the last few episodes for me have been a lot of techno babbled styled stuff. But I feel like ... Anyway, I hope you guys feel and sense that I am just trying to drop gold. These are the things that I do. Things that we know. Things that I have been doing for a long time and I just. Anyway, it blows me away when someones like "Oh yeah, I've got all these front end products and they are doing well, but, I'm not making any money." It's like, "Duh." 'Cause you're not supposed to make money with that stuff. That's supposed to give your customers for free. What's your actual business? What's the core? What's the mid tier product? What's the back end? Anyway, so hopefully this has been helpful. Hopefully these episodes have been great. I've kind of done some funnel deep dives lately. I've got some cool plans for this podcast coming as well. I am excited for you guys to be part of it and. Anyway if you've gotten any value at all. I love hearing that. It kind of keeps me going. Keeps me juiced. Because each one of these episodes honestly takes me in full after creating it, after putting it all together about an hour and half to two hours per episode. It's nice to hear ever once in a while, like a little shout out. I love it. Super nice. If you guys want to go to iTunes. Please rate the podcast. Give a rating. A love the written reviews. That helps me like crazy. That helps everyone else trying to find this kind of information as well. Anyway, it has been great. Last little shout out. If you guys want to join with me and dive into this whole thing. Even if you don't have a Click Funnels account, you can still watch. It's just a Zoom link so you can do live Q & A with me with everyone else and we'll build this whole thing together. And it's going to be awesome and I'm going to keep doing that for a while. Mostly 'cause I love building funnels. Some of them are funnels I need to build anyway, personally. I just thought I would include you in the journey. Go to SalesFunnelBroker.com/live and you can check that on out. Anyway you guys are all awesome and I will talk to you later. Bye. Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Want to get on of today's best internet sales funnel for free? Go to SalesFunnelBroker.com/freefunnels to download your prebuilt sales funnel today.

Ever wonder how the top guys actually make fortunes in MLM? Join us now to hear secrets of the "big guys"... Steve Larsen: What's going on everyone? This is Steve Larsen and you're listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Now this is part six of six. This is the last segment of this whole series. We're gonna talk about MLM funnels. MLM funnels, this is gonna be a little bit of a different sub interview than the other five so far, and the reason being is because in the other five, I have always been interviewing an actual funnel builder, right? Somebody who put the funnel together for their business, their industry, whatever it was. This is a little bit of a different scenario, I have an opportunity to interview an amazing gentleman who has built MLM the traditional way, but without bothering the family members and friends... You guys know that's my whole thing and so, we're gonna learn how he did that without using heavy tech like I use. Does that make sense? So it's kind of a rare look at this. He's done both seven figures personally, both in his MLM, but also in traditional business. Anyway, he's a very, very rare take on MLM and what it takes to be successful with it. Then what I'm gonna do is I'm actually gonna show you guys, or rather talk about and teach, why I have an MLM funnel myself and what it does and what it's done for me, and the whole psychology behind it because it's amazing. I've never seen anybody else do it. There's one other guy who kind of came close, but even then, it actually won't do the full thing that this does. Anyway, I'm excited for this interview. Even if you're not an MLM, I think you'll enjoy the tactics that he uses and how he manages his own business, 'cause I think if we were all to manage his MLM business the way we manage our personal ones, our actual lives would get mentally quieter. There wouldn't be so much noise in our head. Anyway, let's get into the interview... Announcer: Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business using today's best internet sales funnels. And now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. Steve Larsen: Alright you guys, I am super excited that you're here listening with me today. We have a very unique opportunity to hear from, honestly, one of the most brilliant people I've ever met. I actually only met him only a month or two ago, but right off the bat I could tell something was different. I have on the call with me Mr. Jon Penkert, who alone inside of the MLM industry, he's one of the top income earners. He's one of those rare guys that has done both seven figures in regular business, but also seven figures in the network marketing business. One of the things he's taught me is that most people only recruit two and half, two to three people into their MLM business ever. And to say that he's done, which is true, over $500 million in his own downline is absolutely amazing. Anyway, I'm excited to have Mr. Jon Penkert here with me. How are you doing man? Jon Penkert: Hey! Good morning Steve and thanks for having me on the call. It's a privilege to be speaking with you. Steve Larsen: I'm really excited that you're here. This is a very unique take. Most of the time when you hear the word MLM, I'm sure you were the exact same, you tend to run the other way. Most people do anyway, and I know that you've figured out though the way that this whole thing works. But before we jump into that, I actually wanted to ask, how did you get into MLM? Jon Penkert: Well, I was an entrepreneur out of college and moved to southern California. I wanted to take advantage of the business opportunities there and leverage my skills and my degree. When I arrived in California, you know it's kind of the mecca for network marketing, I never really heard of MLM. So, a friend of mine invited me to a meeting and I was very skeptical... It just seemed too good to be true. I couldn't believe all the money they were making. I was like, "Man, I gotta check this out." And it's funny, you say that people run from MLM. What happened is, I started getting involved in network marketing and then people started running from me. Steve Larsen: Exactly! Jon Penkert: I learned very quickly that this MLM business, it's rife with problems. You end up losing a lot of your friends in the beginning 'cause you don't understand what's required to be successful, you don't understand that the key ingredients to network marketing that makes successful champions are no different than any other facet of life. Whether it's business or music or sports, there's a formula to success. Once you figure that out, and you embrace the formula, then guess what? You begin to have this success that you long for... Steve Larsen: Now, did you know what that formula was when you first started? Jon Penkert: No. As a matter of fact, I have about 10 years of pain, which means failure. I learned that success is built on the back of failure. I used to tell people, "I'm the biggest loser in network marketing," because I tried everything and did it wrong. So, I got about 10 years of pain before I figured out, "You know what? There's gotta be a smarter way to do this." Steve Larsen: That's amazing. So, when you first joined though, what happened? What was all that failure? Most people don't talk about the failure parts, but I think we can all relate to it. Jon Penkert: Well, I don't fail small. I failed big. Back in the 80's people in California were making $30,000 a month in network marketing and there was a company called FundAmerica. You can research it... It actually is the case that all the case law studies. It changed the industry, because back then, you paid a lot of money for your membership fees. It was high membership fee to get involved in these clubs, these MLM clubs. The federal government shut them down for illegal Ponzi scheme, and so the big boys like Herbalife and Amway, they all went to school on that and they changed how they come to market. So all the case law for network marketing was really centered around that FundAmerica. You can do the research on the lawsuit. They came out on the other side nine months later innocent and not being convicted of a Ponzi scheme 'cause it wasn't, but it ruined the business opportunity and all the downline had dissipated. All of us that got involved and began to build saw the rug literally pulled out from under us in what we thought was the biggest opportunity of our life and we were all gonna become millionaires. The truth is, you realize if you don't have experienced leaders that have set a foundation to do it right, you're gonna get taken out and there's a lot of examples of that today but the case law began with that FundAmerica opportunity that I was knee deep in and got the rug pulled out from under me. Steve Larsen: So you came in while that was all going on then? Jon Penkert: Yeah, actually I had the misfortune of coming in at the end. I got all my guys in and we started running right as they closed the doors. Steve Larsen: Oh man! Oh my gosh. Jon Penkert: Yeah. Steve Larsen: Did you pick up and go obviously to somewhere else then I'm sure? Jon Penkert: Yeah. Then I got into a couple other companies. I tried the travel industry, it's big in network marketing, and I tried supplements. That's also big in network marketing. The number one product in network marketing is weight loss. We live in a culture that suffers from obesity and everybody wants the quick fix. There's a formula to losing weight, but everybody wants to take a pill so often times in network marketing, companies begin with weight loss. It's very common. The problem with weight loss, for those of you that are in weight loss know that 90 to 120 days into the journey people do one of two things. They lose the weight and get off your product, or they don't lose the weight and they blame your product. You lose your residual income often times in weight loss 'cause people don't stay loyal to the product. Weight loss is a tough way to create residual income. Steve Larsen: Interesting. That is fascinating. So did you deliberately steer away from that? You're asking questions that most people who are brand new in MLM never ask. You know? An awareness of the economy and the market and what's selling and what isn't, it's through the roof. It probably wasn't like that at the beginning though I'm sure, was it? Jon Penkert: Well, it's not. When you look at an opportunity, most people get involved in an opportunity because it's based on hype, right? My really good friend found this product they love and now I love it. We're gonna get rich together, and we're gonna do network marketing. Those are not good reasons to join a network marketing company. Unfortunately, that's how most people get involved in network marketing and then when they don't make the money, then they're like, "Oh, what happened?" There's five pillars of things that are important in network marketing. For those of your listeners that want to do the ... I was like, "Where do I find out about how to be successful?" Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: Harvard Business Review actually has a study on MLMs and what it takes to be successful. Go read it. Google it and find out here's the key ingredients that you need to be successful in network marketing. It's out there. It's not a secret. Steve Larsen: That's fascinating. So you go into, was it FundAmerica? And they kind of go under and go through all that big stuff, and then you transfer to another MLM. Now, were you successful you'd say in that one, or were you still learning what it took to be successful with it? Jon Penkert: Yeah. Well, I'm a type A driver and I'm very success oriented. I'm a guy that I'm gonna just try to make it work. I've done a lot of network marketing opportunities, but where I had the light bulb moment, the aha moment, was when one of my friends said ... I said, "Hey, get involved in this one and we're making a lot of money and we're driving the new cars and we're doing all this stuff." And he looked at me and he said, "Jon, you always get the car but none of the rest of us do." That was where I went, "Wait a minute." Steve Larsen: Powerful. Jon Penkert: It's not about how much money I can make or what I can do, I want to find an opportunity where I can mentor people and help them drive the new car. So that was a paradigm shift in my thought process. I said, "You know what? I have to look for something ..." There's a word that is abused in network marketing it's called duplication. I got news for you guys, everything duplicates. Success duplicates and so does failure. If you're using your influence to build your network marketing business, it's not duplicatable and ultimately will fail because your people don't have your influence. But, if you have a system that people can follow to make money, the system will duplicate and then you have an opportunity in network marketing to create a sustainable residual income. The system has to duplicate, you can't just use your influence and that's when the light bulb went off for me. I said, "You know what? It's not good enough for me to be able to do it, I have to enroll people on the journey and will help them actually accomplish their goals." Steve Larsen: That's huge. So from that point on, you went forward and just noticed that it's got to be a system that's duplicatable, rather than you being duplicatable. System wise, what did you go create? What was it that you knew that you had to go do? Jon Penkert: Well, the first thing that I do when I look at a network marketing company, is I say, "Look, I need 90 days to see if the system duplicates." Because once you begin ... most people make the mistake of measuring their success on their signup bonuses, right? "Hey, I went out and got a few people to sign up and they got some people to sign up, and in the first 30 days I made $3,000." That's not a duplicatable system, that's a sales job. The money you make on the front end isn't as important as if I sign you up Steve, and how much money do I make on you four months from now when you're on auto ship? That's the key. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: Because if I want a residual income, it's not your sign up bonuses, but it's your monthly auto ship that creates an income for me. Now, if I have a product that doesn't have a monthly auto ship component, you can't create residual income. It's gotta be something that you need or want every month, right? Most people will buy something for a couple of months, but is it sustainable? What does that mean? Well, is it something that, as a consumer, six months from now you're still gonna buy? Because if you're not gonna buy it then I don't have a residual income stream, so I always measure the opportunity not how much money do I make up front, but what kind of residual incomes am I making on an auto ship function three, four, five months out? Then I look at the percentages of growth. If my growth percentage is there, then I've got something. Not the paycheck. If you look at your paycheck in the first two or three months of any opportunity, and measure the long term viability, you're making a mistake. Steve Larsen: Fascinating. Okay, so 90 to prove the system, gotta have the monthly auto ship as a component to the MLM you choose, what other components should people look for when they are choosing one? Jon Penkert: There's a saying in business, remember I'm a ... one of the things that made me successful in network marketing is realizing that my entrepreneurship business skills, in traditional business, they don't translate well to network marketing. When you try to bring your skill set from a traditional business model into network marketing, it doesn't work. It doesn't translate. Steve Larsen: Like what? What do you mean? Jon Penkert: Well, entrepreneurship requires a skill set where you have an ability to take risks and make very quick decisions and cut your losers fast and leverage a skill set more than a system. You try to bring your skills into network marketing it doesn't work because why? [caption id="attachment_1194" align="alignleft" width="430"] Business Colleagues Together Teamwork Working Office[/caption] You're managing a volunteer army, nobody works for you. It's like a sports team, right? Everyone's part of the team and we want to win together, but since no one works for me, I can't hold them accountable. I have to motivate them, which is why network marketing often times leverages self help. Become a better version of yourself, work on yourself. Steve Larsen: Fascinating. Jon Penkert: Because the stronger self you have, the more people you're gonna lead. Steve Larsen: Fascinating. It is all about the motivation then for that. I didn't realize ... I mean, I knew that MLMs kind of like bus op wrapped around ... with the personal development wrapped around it, but that's a fascinating way to describe that though. I've never thought of it that way. Jon Penkert: You said what's important? What do I look for? Sports parallels business that parallels network marketing, and what am I talking about? Leadership is the number one thing that has the biggest impact on your success. Why is that? Because the rate of the pack is determined by the speed of the leader and it doesn't matter if you look at successful sports teams or businesses or network marketing, you gotta have good leadership. That's one of the things that I leverage going into an opportunity is are the leaders experienced? Are they just a bunch of guys that found a product and have never run a network marketing company? Or are their leaders proficient at the global business model? Because, listen you guys, today network marketing is the business model of the 21st century. There is no greater. What you are going to get paid to do is monetize networks that you build globally, not networks locally in a local market, but your ability to sell products and services globally in a global market place. Which means what? Language conversion, currency conversion. You monetize global networks, you want to be with a leader who's done that before. Somebody who's opened up other countries. Someone who understands logistically how to deliver products into those countries because you can have the greatest product in the world but if you don't have a leadership team that can deliver, you're gonna end up with a lot of unhappy customers. Steve Larsen: What are you doing to train people below you to become leaders? Like you said, that really does seem where all that duplication is even possible. Jon Penkert: I have my own philosophy on leadership. In the leadership circles, I've studied leadership and there's a great argument in leadership, and it's are leaders created or are they born? Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: They go back and forth on that question. The truth is it's neither. Leaders aren't born. You're not a born leader and you can't just choose someone and create a leader. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: I like to look at leadership one of two ways. You're either a cheerleader, which sits at the back of the room and encourages everybody to be the best they can be and go out there and charge and go do it. Then there's the servant leader that says, "You know what? I'm going first. I'm gonna go and go across the river and swim across and make sure it's not dangerous and make sure it's attainable. And then I'm gonna encourage my people to follow me." Leaders are neither born nor created, leaders are chosen... The masses will choose to follow you if you're cutting the path and doing the right things and having the success. Success attracts success. So as a leader moves forward quickly, there creates a vacuum that people will follow. So my definition of a leader, first and foremost, is the visionary who's following the path and setting the right example and the people will follow. Steve Larsen: That is definitely the best definition of leadership I've ever heard. Okay, a cheerleader or a servant leader and you're chosen by others based on you cutting the path and being an example. Wow, that's amazing! So you go out and you're teaching others to do that obviously, because you've chosen an MLM with the monthly auto ship and you have to develop new skills, you now have the potential for actual residual income. What are you doing to actually find people? It was fascinating, you told me when I first met you ... what do you say? The average person recruits only like 2.3 people in their life ever? Jon Penkert: Well the industry standard, and look, these are standards. Jim Rohn is a great leader and champion of network marketing. You can't beat the system and the system says the average person is gonna recruit 2.5 people in their career. So what network marketing companies try to do is they try to attract the superstar recruiters that are gonna recruit 200 people, but just do the math. Eventually, if you have a system that requires the average person to recruit more than 2.5 people for instance, well you're gonna set them up to fail. You can't beat, basically, the laws in network marketing. Steve Larsen: Interesting. Okay, so one of the other pieces you've taught just floored me. I mean, I just was blown away by this strategy. Before I did any marketing, I actually was going into CIT. I was gonna be a programmer, and I was learning about these things called binaries but you dropped that word and it meant something totally different for MLM world. Do you mind describing what it is that you were sharing with me? Jon Penkert: Well let's take a step back. The one thing that's consistent in life is change. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: Change is always gonna happen. If you'd have come to me 10 years ago and said, "Jon, I got an MLM and it's a binary. Will you join?" I don't want to join that because an old school definition of a binary, the way they set them up really hurt people. The fairest comp plan was the uni-level. There's matrix and there's different comp plan styles and different hybrids, but all of the legacy companies ran a uni-level platform. The truth is, in a uni-level, you've gotta bring your 20 friends into a room, get them signed up, push them out, say, "Go get your own 20 friends. That's how I make residual income, but you gotta go to work and get a job." Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: That really catered to the type A drivers who could recruit, but it doesn't help the average person. Why? Because the average person is only gonna bring in a couple of people and now you need a front line of 20. So it begins to unravel. Now I say that, I made a lot of money in uni-levels, but today, the hybrid binary's serve the masses the very best. Now why do I say that? Because if you have a system where the average person is gonna get 2.5 people recruited and you have a three-legged system, four-legged system, five-legged system to be successful, you're setting yourself up to fail. But if you have a binary system, which is a two-legged system, and you're building a team and 100% of the people as the recruiter that you bring in, either go onto your left team or your right team, that means each person benefits from not only your ability to recruit, but I've set them up to succeed because their 2.5 people does what? It qualifies them. One left, one right and now they have at least a half a person overflow into their downline, so now every person's adding to this success of the system and the system supports the 2.5 people they're gonna get. If that makes sense. I know sometimes when you talk about numbers, people get a little foggy but that's the reason the binaries today are the best leverage point to create residual income. Steve Larsen: So for example then, just so everyone understands on who's listening as well, my first month of MLM was a classic example of ultimate failure. I did a great job of recruiting people. I literally went down Main Street and I recruited 13 people in that first month, but I spread them so wide. You know? They were out all over the place, and you're saying that's not what I should do, right? Jon Penkert: Yeah, let's look at it. I like analogies in life. If you take a very large room and you have all of these light bulbs that are lighting the room, the light source defuses the light and it lights the room. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: But that's not maximizing the energy. Laser beams maximize the energy. If you took all the light and you focus it into a small beam you can cut steel with it. When I'm running a team, as a leader, I want to maximize their efficiency. I don't want them focused on 10 legs on their front line, I want them to run this business with maximum leverage. Two-legged systems does what? It focuses their time and energy in basically two streams, so you're not defusing your energy. You're focusing energy and your teams can run faster. Steve Larsen: Just in case people don't understand also the lingo or jargon, you're saying only two-legged meaning I'm only gonna put two people directly below me, right? And then try and do that for the people below them also, right? Jon Penkert: Yeah. In a binary system, I sign you up Steven and you go get two people. One left, one right. They get two people. One left, one right. Now, when you get the third person in the business, it has to go under Team A or Team B. Now, what's happened is those people that have joined you in the business opportunity, they take advantage of their upline, your ability to recruit, to help them build their residual income. That's powerful... That's what J. Paul Getty said when he said, "Look, I'd rather have 1% of a hundred people's energy, than a 100% of my own." Right! I want to join a team of leaders that are recruiting because I'm gonna bring my two people, and my people are gonna bring their two people. Then, the overflow, you have an opportunity now to gain the advantage of your upline's recruiting ability. If that makes sense. Steve Larsen: Yeah, it really does actually. That's fascinating. Now, when you were saying that all binaries are not created equally as well, I guess compared to what you just said right there, could you show what a bad binary would look like? Jon Penkert: Well, I hesitate to step into that because there's a lot of people that make extraordinary incomes in uni-levels, and extraordinary incomes at what I would consider a bad binary. There's good binaries and there's, let's say, better binaries. Right? I look for best in class and there's a series of things that are qualifiers that will tell me, "Is this a good deal or isn't it." Honestly, I'm gonna step aside for a second you guys. Look, you don't do this business by yourself. When I lead people, I tell them, "Look, you're a sum total of the five people that most influence you. Who are the five people that surround you?" My life is no different. I've got very good leaders around me that I consult with. When we look at a comp plan, I don't look at it by myself. I get my business partners to pick it apart as well 'cause I'll only see a certain deficiency, but I've got guys that break it down. They go, "Look, here's why it'll succeed and here's why it won't." I don't just rely on my own ability to analyze. I've got strong partners around me and each of you should do that. Your upline, your upline's leadership, and the downline, the people that you're attracting into your business. You have to surround yourself with strong people. That's a business acumen issue, that's not just MLM. It's good business. Steve Larsen: You've completely opened my eyes to more of these. The way you run the business is fascinating. Even the fact that you said, that I have a business card. Why don't you have your own business card to hand out to everyone? You don't run it really cool man. It's so awesome. Jon Penkert: I don't have a business card because I want my people to trust me. As a leader, if you lose trust, you lose everything. So when I go in and speak, I'll speak in front of rooms of 20 people and 2,000 people, but what happens is people come up to me and they say, "Hey, Jon. I want to join your team. I want to be apart of your deal. Or do you have a business card so I can contact you?" I'm not there to recruit my people's people. The only way you get ahold of me is really through one of my leaders. So I don't have a business card because I'm not looking to recruit anybody. The other thing is what I've learned in the business as well is, even if I come across a cold prospect on an airplane if I give them my business card, I have a 100% chance of them never calling me. They just don't follow up. Steve Larsen: Yeah. Jon Penkert: But if i say, "You know what? I don't have a card but let me get your number and I'll follow up with you." Now I've taken control of the relationship. It's amazing how I always have a chance to follow up with them if I don't give them a business card. It's part of a business progress, but it's also part of my leadership where I don't want people thinking I'm gonna cross-recruit their people. I work for them, and when I'm in one of their business meetings, then you can always contact me through them. If they want to give out my phone number, they can. That brings up another subject that you ... I'm gonna keep rambling here. Steve Larsen: Nah, I love it. Jon Penkert: What happens is, as you build these teams ... I've only recruited, best effort, between 30 and 40 people in any network marketing company I've ever been in because once you start building a team, I start working for my downline. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: So when I go into your home, I meet your 20 people, guess what? There's two or three of them that want me to help them build their business and I meet their 20 people. The masses that I've created, I've done one person at a time partnering with them and building their business. So I don't have to recruit a lot of people personally. All I have to do is be a leader and work with my downline and the masses will come if you do that. Steve Larsen: Yeah, it's great. It's absolutely great. And so, if you go out and you have that servant leader attitude, obviously that we've been talking about, and ... Anyway, I'm taking huge notes right now, just so you know. I'm drawing circles around all the key pieces and putting it together because this is really awesome. I hope all you guys listening are doing that too. I do that for every one of the people I interview. This is really, really interesting. So, if I'm brand new in MLM, brand spanking new or say I just joined a new one or whatever, what are the first key pieces you'd have me do as a new person into an MLM? Let's say it's in the chosen one you like where there's a binary with it, there's auto ship, all the pieces are play. What would my roles be? Jon Penkert: Well, I would seek, as fast as I can, who's in my upline and who the leaders are because the upline leaders are waiting for their phone to ring with their downline because they want to work with them and they want to help build the business. You might as well leverage their experience because I guarantee you're two friends that you bring in, they don't know anything more about the company than you do. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: The closer you can get to your upline leadership, the better that it is. I tell you what, here's what I wish I would have done and for all you guys that are new to the business, I wish when I was out of college I would have gone and looked in ... You know, the DSA today, there's about 20 to 22 legacy companies that do over a billion dollars. We're in an industry that does $130 billion globally. There's about 20 companies that actually do over a billion. I wish that I would have found a product that I really liked and believed in, and then joined the legacy company for a couple reasons. Because then I would have learned the successful tactics and strategies of a network marketing company and I would've got connected to leaders in the industry because if you think that five years from now, somebody's not gonna come out with the latest and greatest something and turn it into a network marketing company, you're wrong. The relationships that you build will sustain you throughout your career. So, I wish I would have just gotten involved in really good companies and learned some principles and met amazing leaders because that's what network marketing's about. It's about connecting great leaders. Any of your listeners, go find a good company and get involved with them, not because you're ... I hope that you spend the next 20 years with them, but you probably won't because the truth is, when you're looking for a good network marketing opportunity, the one thing that I cannot teach or coach you is something called timing. Well, the time to get in those companies, honestly, was 20 years ago when they started. Right? Now you're not gonna create ... it would be a rare person, somebody probably will to prove me wrong but, the average person isn't probably gonna get in there and create an extraordinary six figure income because they've had their run. I want to look for a company that's been around for a couple years, they've got their ground work underneath them, they're doing 40 to 50 million a year, and they haven't hit momentum. The key is pre-momentum, and you'll get that in the Harvard Business Study Review, when you read it. You want a company pre-momentum, so that you're the one that is building the legacy and the income. When they do a billion dollars, you've helped them grow from 50 million to a billion. That's what you look for, is timing. That's the one thing that you can't teach or coach, is to be in the right place at the right time. Steve Larsen: That's interesting. Do you have any tips for how you find a company that's pre-momentum? Jon Penkert: Very difficult. You gotta keep your ears open and be connected to a lot of people, which is why I said ... you know, if I was ... a great opportunity for even college kids. I think every college kid, the skills that you learn in network marketing will carry you through the rest of your life. Go out and find a good company that you believe in the product and get involved and learn how to create these residual incomes because it's those people that you need that are gonna introduce you to the next big run. Steve Larsen: Yeah, and I appreciate that that's what the advice you said, if I was brand new. First, know the leaders, know your upline. I never took the time to do that my first round at it. I joined one, seriously, just 'cause my buddy was in it. I mean it was the exact opposite of what you just said I should do when I did that four years ago. Pretty much every entrepreneur I know is out there, whether or not they'll admit it, has been part of an MLM. It's such an awesome career. It's a great place to go to. The reason, obviously, why a lot of people have a bad taste in their mouth is because some over eager upline person turned around and badgered their family and badgered their friends and, honestly, hurt some relationships. How do actually recruit? How do you get to getting leads in this industry without actually hurting those relationships? You know what I'm trying to ask? That was poorly worded. Jon Penkert: What happens often times, people get in these network marketing opportunities, they look at it as a "get rich quick" scheme. Right? Like, how can I make money off of you and your friends? Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: Then they get disappointed because that mindset fails them. It's really not the servant leader model, and so, when I talk to people who have been hurt been network marketing and we've all been in a network marketing company that didn't work out for lots of reasons. Steve Larsen: Sure. Jon Penkert: But I always tell them ... Zig Ziglar I think said it best. He said, "Create enough opportunity for people and give them what they want, you'll end up getting what you want." And so, what I've learned in network marketing, especially if I've dealt with similar experience, I'll say, "What are the things that your upline didn't do for you?" I teach them to be the upline that they wish they had. People resonate with that. They realize, "If I do the things for my downline that I wish my upline had done for me, I'll create extraordinary success." And again, that's that leadership model of leading by example and not being a cheerleader. I'm gonna get in there and do the hard work with them because together we can do great things. That's really what I try to get people to focus on. When they have bad experiences in network marketing is, "Hey, let's you and I be the leadership team for your downline, that you wish you had." And so, "Be the upline that you wish had," is my best practice. Steve Larsen: I appreciate that answer. I very strongly do believe in an element of business karma, if you go around and you start trying to help people and you put out legitimate value out there. It may not happen all at once, there's got to be this mentality of dropping your anger and not moving forward for a while, it's not a "get rich quick" thing, but eventually you do get what you'd like. It'll come, and almost be surprising, over night. Just kind of show up. That's great... Jon Penkert: What people don't realize is that you attract what you put out there, so if you don't like what you're getting, take a step back and look at what you're putting out. Steve Larsen: Do you have any last pieces of advice for someone who, let's say they're in one, they like the product, there's not really a whole lot moving along ... what should someone be involved in daily, those tasks, those rituals that keep them engaged in the process? Jon Penkert: The biggest thing that I can do for each one of your listeners is ... You guys, take a deep breath and look in the mirror, because the number one quality that drives my business overall, is a belief in your self. You have to believe in yourself. Find a company with integrity, with a great product, and a good comp plan but then, look in the mirror and go, "You know what? You are at the right place at the right time. You were chosen for this opportunity and go get it." Because I can't stop a person that 100%, rock solid believes. They will go out and break every barrier out there if they just believe. Steve Larsen: Yeah. Jon Penkert: As a leader, most often, all I do is get people to see that they have everything that they need to succeed. They just have to believe and go do it. Steve Larsen: Very enlightening, very fascinating. I appreciate that a lot. Now, you've obviously mentioned you don't have a business card and you work with the people directly under you, if people wanted to reach out or learn more about what it is you're doing or some kind of an action follow-up after this podcast, where should people go? What should people do? Jon Penkert: Well, Steven I totally appreciate and respect you and I'm glad that you invited me to be on your broadcast. This, for me, was really a favor to you. It wasn't an opportunity for me to recruit. I don't think I'm that great anyway, but I think that you find out who I am and what I'm in and you want to get involved, I would say embrace a local leader in your local market that's on my team that's great. I'm not here to recruit people, I'm just here to support. If they want to reach out to you, you know how to get ahold of me. Let's work it that way. Steve Larsen: Sounds good. We'll do it that way. Awesome. Jon, thank you so much. I appreciate that. This has been fantastic. Jon Penkert: Well, it's my absolute pleasure and I look forward to working with you in the future. I'll tell you something. In life, when you get two people ... I love the mastermind principle. You get two people, it creates a third more powerful mind. You can change the world getting two people committed and believing in themselves and moving in the right direction. So, I thank you Steven for what you bring to the table and your commitment to success. Steve Larsen: Alright you guys. Now at this time, what I want to do is to show you guys a little bit more about the actual funnel that I've been using to recruit for downlines. It's amazing. I came up with the concept about four years ago. I never thought that it would actually come to fruition as quickly, or as powerfully, as it has. What happened, basically, is I joined this MLM and it was terrible because I literally went down Main Street. We just found out that my wife was pregnant with our first kid and I was excited, but really honestly, I was scared out of my mind because I had no money. I had nothing... I know a lot of people listening to this are still trying to figure out what there thing is and they're still trying to create with their product or what ever it is, their first successful funnel or whatever. Just know that I know the feeling, right? What happened was, basically, my buddy came in and he recruited me. He said, "Hey, come join this," and I was like, "No. That's a stupid multi-level marketing thing. I'm not gonna do that." I ended up joining his after he was begging. But I did it with the reason in mind like, "You know what? This could pay for the birth of my child." I was like, "Hey, the clock's ticking. I got nine months. Let's go do this." What I did is I started studying and reading and I was literally going door to door. I was like, "If I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do it 100%." And so, I literally did, I went down Main Street and I recruited 13 people my first month. First off, I just want to say, I'm never ever gonna tell you the name of the MLM. That's not the purpose of this. I'm telling you this, "You can use what I'm telling you right now in any MLM." Okay? I'm just gonna get that big elephant out of the room real quick. I was studying one night, and I realized that after I recruited those first 13 people, I was like, "Yes, this is awesome. This is totally duplicatable. I got all these people now." The problem was that literally none of them did anything at all. I literally had to take a cattle prod. I remember driving once three or four hours, something like that ... Yeah, it was three hours, three hours in a single day. I think so. Anyway, it was a long way ... just to meet with somebody just to see if they had actually done anything because they wouldn't answer the phone calls. I couldn't motivate them. I was like, "This is not sustainable. This is not duplicatable. Whoever told me this was passive income was lying."That was my attitude, and there was an element of truth to that. I was like, "There's got to be a better way to do this." What happened was, one night, it was like 3 a.m. in the morning or it was 2 a.m., 2 a.m. in the morning, I had class in a few hours. I was still in college, obviously. I was reading and all of sudden this guy ... I can see his face, I don't remember the eBook, I don't remember what company, I don't remember anything. I just remember hearing the concept "paid prospecting". I was like, "What? Is this real? Is this true?" Now, this is the dark ages. This is pre-ClickFunnels days or about the time they were launching actually. I was like, "This is fascinating, and you mean, you get paid regardless if somebody joins you? Fascinating. What?" I had this idea, what if I gave ridiculous value upfront, for free, for something and then something small paid, kind of like mid-tier, and then something more high ticket in the backend, and those people are the people that I go approach. Not family and friends. I can honestly say, and still say, that to this day there have been people, four years, me approaching them about MLM it hurt the relationship. I was like, "This is garbage. I'm not gonna do this. If this is what this industry is about, I don't want to do it." I know a lot of you guys are the exact same way. I was like, "What's this funnel thing?" I had been building, basically the equivalent of funnels, in WordPress prior, before ClickFunnels days. I had a whole bunch of my own clients. It was a lot of fun. We had successes. We had failures. This is the story, you know? Basically, what I realized is like, "What if I created this thing? I'll go film it." What I did is I basically funnel hacked. Again, I didn't know that was the term or whatever, but I went and I started looking at all the top MLMers who are out there. I started asking like, "What are they actually doing?" And you know what's funny is that after a couple of months of just deep diving into each of these guys, I realized that none of them were doing home meetings, none of them were doing hotel meetings, they're not going getting on the phone, none of them were going to their family and friends. They had created for themselves something unique. But what they did all have, every single one of them, had the equivalent of a funnel. They had their own website. They had the equivalent of a Webinar. It was interesting. It was so stark when I started looking at it. I was like, "This is the way to do that. Why have I been doing it the other way?" So what I did is I literally was taking some of these top guys courses... I was transcribing them. I was turning into my own. I was adding whole courses and elements to it. I went and I re-shot stuff. I put things together. It was one of the coolest things ever. It took me eight months, 'cause I was in the middle of college, I was in the army, we had our first kid. It took me a while to get it out, but when I did, nobody bought it at first. I had done a terrible job going around and sharing it with people. Honestly, what was really happening is I was graduating. There was a lot stuff happening. There just was. I was trying to become an officer. There was a whole bunch of stuff that was happening in my life and so I moved on. But some dude stumbled upon it and was like, "Oh my gosh! This is absolutely insane. Why are you not selling this more?" And I was like, "You know what? That was pretty cool." I went and I launched it and it was like massive, waterfall response. So many people just started coming out of the wood work, people I'd never heard of. I was like, "Holy crap! This is working." Pretty soon, I had a waiting list of like 12 people begging to join my MLM. I was like, "What the heck? This totally worked! Oh my gosh!" Anyway, fascinating. Well, it was my first attempt at making something that was bigger and there was a lot of things that were wrong with it. I had been redoing the entire thing and putting it all together. Basically, this is what happens, right? Just like Jon was saying. One of the problems is that people have not learned how to become attractive. I'm not saying good looking or whatever. I'm sure your all drop dead gorgeous. But you're not attractive yet. In MLM, you have the same product. You have the same service. You have the exact same scripts, the exact same websites. There's literally nothing different about you. Why would I join you over somebody else? There's no reason. There's no reason to. The one currency that you really have is you. You must be different. There's really two currencies, but that's the first one. The first currency, you must be different. You have to be sellable. You must know you. You've gotta find your voice. You've gotta know your message. That's what this new course that I've been talking about is gonna come out and talk about. Anyways, it's been a lot of fun. I've had a lot of fun putting it together. So, first of all, that's model number one. It talks about becoming attractive and how you actually attract people to you, how you create things and products that are free, that just deliver a crap ton of value because if you can do that, it will pull people to you in a really fascinating way. Right? You'll be giving before you ever ... you'll be leading with value before you ever even mention the fact that you have an MLM, right? I never even tell anyone about it ever. They have to find it through my funnel, and when they do, then I'll talk to them about it. Otherwise, it becomes this awkward thing and you have side agendas with every conversation. I hate that. I'm so against that. That's the reason I put this stuff together. Anyway. Second thing that it talks about is validating. So now if you've got people in through free stuff and you've attracted people in, the second part is a validation thing meaning I need to validate how serious this person is. If someone spends a little bit of money on marketing education for their MLM, I know they're serious. And so that's what I created. It was like a free plus shipping thing. And when someone bought it, I was like, "Hmm. This is not your standard MLMer." There's well over 10 million MLMers in America alone. Like, "Okay, this person already is separating themselves from the remainder of the people." And that's what I wanted. The third part then was now that I've pulled them in, I've qualified them, now it's all about the duplication and actually selling them. Right? That's what I use Webinars for and no one really has ever seen that before, which is awesome. Very few people have which is so freaking cool, anyway. But the Webinar goes in and auto closes and recruits and gets them signed up. It's amazing. Then after that, then it talks about some of this downline management stuff where I'll show you how to rob your downline. Meaning, there's a really good way to do this and a really bad way to do it and Jon touched on that, which is all about binaries, but, the right way to do them. Yes, the principles amazing, but there's a right way to do it just like he was talking about. You know, leadership training. I'm gonna have a lot of cool stuff. I'm gonna talk about when to rinse and when to repeat. How do you tell? It's weird to think of it like this, but it is a business and if someone's not doing their thing, might be time to rinse. If someone's run along with you and they can run with you, time to repeat. You do that through a very specific thing, and I'm not gonna give the golden nugget away, alright? There's a golden nugget to it. I'm totally gonna bait you guys. It's been ridiculous. Just the paid prospecting aspect of what I built up alone, without any ad spending, I made 50 grand last year. It was nuts. No ad spend, nothing else, it's just up, just talkable word to word, mouth to mouth. I didn't talk to anyone about it. There's very specific strategies I used and the people that are coming to me are asking to join. I don't even tell them I'm in one. Have I even told you what I'm in? No, and that's the reason why. That's why this is so powerful and why I've been so passionate about it... People are like, "Steven, MLM? Seriously?" Well, yeah actually. If you know how to work the system in a good way, if you know how to create a new opportunity, if you know how to create an offer, if you know how to do marketing, if you know how to do everything that Russell teaches, then yeah. Why the heck would you not, if you can do that? Then, the last part that it teaches you how to do, what it is shows you is I call it "pick your megaphone", "choose your megaphone", meaning, just choose one traffic source. Anyway, there's way more to it. There's a lot more that's been going on that you guys have no idea about that I totally kept from you for the last six months. It's been so sweet, all the pieces coming into play. Software pieces ... it's been great. It's been really great. I can honestly say very proudly that there's no one else on the planet that's been doing what I'm doing and it's ... Ah, it's so cool. I wish I could tell you more, but I can't. Anyway. That's what I want to talk about funnel-wise though, alright? Funnel-wise, and please understand, again, I'm not here to pitch. I'm just here to tell you what I've been doing because this is the sixth segment of this series, which is all about MLM funnels. So, what I've been doing, is I've been pumping ridiculous value into the MLM space. I know it's so good that people should be paying for it, and they know that. That's the feeling that I want them to have. Then I go through and I qualify them through something that's free and ... I'm sorry, something that's free plus shipping or whatever it is. Low ticket, 47 bucks. Honestly, I don't really think it matters that month. All your doing is your vetting out the good people. What's funny is that little vet move that I've been doing, I've talked to more owners of MLMs from that one thing than any other thing. You get the kind of fish that you put the bait out for, right? You know what I mean? Put better bait out, you get better fish. And so, I created a vetting system... Funnels are not just ways to increase our average cart value. They're also ways to vet people. That's exactly what an application style funnel is. You're trying to have them apply. You want to sift out the dirties, the people who are just never gonna do anything with you or who are just the kind of people who you help like crazy but they'll always complain or the people who just won't go take action. You know what I mean? I don't want those kinds of people and I know you don't want it either. So, first I attract through a lot of different ways, really amazing things actually. Then the second part is all about some kind of qualifier, money-wise. Paid prospecting, gotta charge. Right? Then after that, then I go close them through some more automated processes, specifically through Webinar funnels. That's what's been working for me and that's why I've been doing it. Anyway, I'm not the focus of this interview. I just wanted to be able to toss in more of what I've been doing funnel-wise to you, so that you have an idea that there is actually a really awesome way to do it without ever talking to family, every talking to friends, and if you want to, that's fine. I'm not trying to dissuade you from doing it. I'm just telling you that I am really against that and I don't do it for a lot of reasons. I specifically target the kind of individual that I want. I want someone who's a rockstar, someone who loves marketing. You know what I mean? Those are the kinds of people. Then what I do is I ... My team is very, very, as far as my own personal downline management strategies or whatever, I feel almost weird saying this to you guys, 'cause this is not the typical audience that I say this kind of stuff to, but what I do is I say, "Hey, look. I'll give you my entire marketing system if you come join." You know what I mean? Those are the things that you create yourself that make you attractive, otherwise, you're the same thing. Now, as far as a product standpoint, and fulfillment standpoint, and having to worry about customer service, MLM is fantastic because you don't have to worry about any of that. They take care of all of it... There's really ridiculous advantages to being a part of it. It truly can be passive if you set it up the right way. The problem is that most multi-level marketers, network marketers, have no idea how to market. And you're like, "What on earth is so..." Anyway, that's what I've been doing and it's been kicking butt. Anyway, it's been great. Not trying to be cocky, I'm just excited. Anyway, if you are interested though, go check out secretmlmhacks.com just to see what I'm doing. Again, not pitching you, not trying to be weird or whatever. Just so you guys can see how I've been doing it. If you love your MLM, stay in it, which is awesome. So anyway, go to secretmlmhacks.com to watch real time what it is that's been going on there in the MLM world. Alright. Hey, guys, that's been the last part of this series. I've loved doing this with you guys. I've loved going through this six part series. I have more interviews that I've already lined up. Might be the next one, might not be. But anyway, we're gonna get back into ... Usually I try and publish two times a week, but these have been an hour long, almost every single one of them. Now, if you really want to watch behind the scenes, as far as my hands, watch the magician hands, the real purpose behind these, yes it was to provide amazing value but there is something else that I did these interviews for that will help you. Anyway. Keep watching everything that's going on. I think you guys will enjoy it and please, these speakers have done amazing things, they have dropped insane value. I want you to know that the listenership has well more than doubled because of these. It's not because I know that I'm great or anything like that. I has nothing to do with that. It's because I understand the value these guys have been pumping out there... Anyway, I've got a great follow-up episode already that I'm gonna be doing. I think you guys will like the next one. I'll talk to you guys later. Hope you enjoyed it. Reach out to the speakers, tell them thank you so much. And go take some serious action, and you will enjoy successes. Alright guys, talk to you later. Bye! Announcer: Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Want to get one of today's best internet sales funnel for free? Go to salesfunnelbroker.com/freefunnels to download your pre-built sales funnel today.

Whats Up Creative Hustlers! Steven & Melissa Here. Today we'll be talking with Auguste Crenshaw, a personal development, and business strategist coach who in July is bringing together 30+ thought leaders and badass entrepreneurs (including myself) for the Real Talk for Business Mastery Virtual Summit.   [01:15] What's Up Auguste? Ready to get hustling? [01:38] Why Steven & Melissa are excited about this interview! [02:15] Why Auguste is a badass #CreativeHustler [03:20] Auguste is all about Creativity and the Process. [03:45] Falling in love with the process. [04:02] You need to fall in love with the process to GROW. [05:00] Do you have a million dollar work ethic? [05:45] Get out of your head, and put yourself out there. [06:20] Add the value and people will feed you what they want. [06:50] Why you need to put yourself out there and keep doing it! [07:45] You need to stay true to your core values. [08:13] Sometimes you need to take a timeout in your business. [08:30] Don't abandon the tribe you already have. [08:55] The process behind the Real Talk Business Mastery Summit. [09:38] Gut instinct is worth so much more. [10:10] How the name “Real Talk Business Mastery” came about. [11:03] People are smarter than “6 days to 6 figures” trends! [11:20] Bringing real talk to the entrepreneurs [11:35] Summit with 32 speakers over 5 days. You need to be there. [12:22] July 13th - mark your calendars. Get signed up for “Real Talk Business Mastery” [12:39] Why this summit will transform your fucking life. [13:30] Entrepreneur life is a crazy emotional trainwreck. [14:02] Your brand, your life, and REAL challenges. [14:40] After the summit, your HEAD will be in the game. [15:00] This summit is your KICK in the ASS [15:20] Auguste has always had creativity & confidence, but the system doesn't make entrepreneurs. [16:17] When the pressure hits, you gotta make moves! [17:20] The more people give to Auguste, the more she wants to give back. [17:46] It's consistently sowing seeds and the journey that leads to success. [18:20] You need to take time and put effort to be who you SHOULD be. [18:45] This summit will help you tap into your creative nature. [19:09] Auguste manifested her own destiny. [19:25] Mental blocks in entrepreneurs - society isn't always right. [20:10] Auguste's switch from Cosmetology to Badass entrepreneur. [20:45] Helping a fellow entrepreneur helped Auguste find her new path. [21:45] Sometimes you have to make a choice to let something go to move forward. [22:20] Auguste broke anchor by leaving behind her hair business. [23:00] Do I really want to do everything it takes? Do I want to hustle? [23:20] People used to call me a “life coach,” and finally it hit me. [24:04] Auguste found her divine right, and her purpose all alone. [24:36] Melissa needed to take her own journey, as well. [25:09] Sometimes you need to get away from everything you know and break it down to succeed. [25:50] Who's to say we can't create our own damn table? [26:25] We live in a time, “If you think it, you can do it.” [26:50] Auguste grew up in the church and was raised with her vision in a box. [27:35] Once you break away from it ALL, you can find the bigger purpose. [28:00] When you feel it and the universe drops it in your lap, sit your ass at the computer RIGHT THEN and get it DONE! [28:50] You need to do it right away, or you risk your purpose being torn down. [29:26] The example of the invention of the telephone. [30:10] Intuition in our society [30:34] Everyone is trying to measure, instead of just being open to natural instincts. [31:17] Don't look at your business like you're balancing a budget. [31:46] Auguste's summit is about collaboration, first and foremost. [32:45] It's about the HEART of the project itself. [33:30] “Real Talk Business Mastery Summit” is different because it comes from the heart [34:30] It is what it is, we're not sugar coating anything in this Summit. [35:13] Authentic Groups and tribes are important for online businesses. [36:20] The hardest part about Auguste's #CreativeHustle - REST! [37:15] Business can get overwhelming, we need to take the time to REST. [37:30] Auguste's awesome post to build community in a Facebook group! [38:00] Building Facebook Business Pages. [39:50] Auguste's advice on Time Management. [39:58] Write it down, and keep the MAIN THING the main thing! [40:30] Don't focus on BALANCE. Focus on MAXIMIZING. [41:50] Time slows down when you're focused. [42:13] You need to set the boundaries for yourself and your significant others. [43:10] Make time for the unexpected detours in your life [43:30] Auguste's task management systems - send people to your calendar. [44:00] Why writing things down is still so important. [44:50] Steven's 1-2-3 system [45:27] Auguste's Hit List of #CreativeHustlers to sit down with. Jim Rone, John C Maxwell, Eric Thomas, and Gary Vaynerchuk. [46:12] The drink is specific to each #CreativeHustler: wine, water or beer? [47:35] Traveling and life taught Auguste that it's about the EXPERIENCE! [48:25] How she built her business AGAINST the grain. [48:50] Sometimes you need to redefine your character [49:20] Auguste always breaks the mold [49:47] Where to find Auguste on the internet [51:40] Melissa's Moment of Hustle   Contact:   Real Talk Business Mastery Summit Facebook AugusteCrenshaw.com Twitter Just google her!

The Epiphany Bridge, State Control, Kinda Like Bridges Today’s episode is part 1 of a 3 part series of Russell speaking at a $100k event where he taught about the psychology of funnels. Here are some of the things you will hear in part 1: How if you have something you are geeking out over or passionate about, it is the perfect thing to sell others on. How the epiphany bridge works including how to get your audience to have the same epiphany you had in order to get them to buy into you. And how to tell a story to make your audience feel how you felt. So listen below to hear the first part of Russell’s presentation about the epiphany bridge. ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:           How many of you have this thing called a website? Okay. Speaker 2:           What’s that? Speaker 1:           Now, yeah it’s this thing on this thing called the internet, that came out a couple decades ago. I look at anything online as real estate. Back in my direct mail days, when there was no internet, I always loved the line, “The difference between a one dollar bill and a hundred dollar bill is the message on the paper.” Same paper, same ink, different message. One change in the message could make that same piece of paper worth a hundred times more. The same thing goes with any of the virtual space. It’s what you say, how you say it, how you compel people. Someone that actually knows how to print virtual money, would be Russell Brunson, and he has a whole process and a whole company and a whole software that can do this for you, and so he’s going to take you through something that I’m sure could be potentially worth millions, if not tens of millions of dollars to all of you. Give it up for Mr. Russell Brunson. Russell Brunson:               Well, I’m excited to be here. Excited to share some cool stuff. I didn’t do my presentation until last night, cause I wanted to see what you guys, what I think would be the most help for everyone. That’s kind of where I came up with some handouts. Do you guys all have these? Okay, so what I want to do is, I’m not going to show you guys anything about click funnels, cause that doesn’t matter. I want to bridge some gaps, hopefully help you guys understand the psychology of funnels, cause if you understand that, then everything else becomes easier. I think that’s the most essential part for us as the entrepreneurs in the business, to really understand. Hopefully this will kind of bridge some of the things from the copywriting and other things we’ve been talking about. Okay, a couple things. Craig yesterday was talking about Maslov’s hierarchy of needs, which was like, I was totally geeking out and loving it. I look at things very similar. I just flip it on the side kind of. I want to kind of reshow this, cause it’ll help my next thing I’m going to explain make more sense. I look at the world where there’s like, there’s cold traffic, there’s warm traffic and then there’s hot traffic, right? I got the picture there in my little handouts. If you’ve ever read my book, Dot Com Secrets, I sketch out everything I do, cause I’m a visual person, so this is the sketch. I learned this originally from Jean Schwartz. He talked about, if you look at any market, there’s this awareness, this cycle of awareness, right? Where we hear people are unaware of what’s happening. After they’re unaware, eventually they become problem aware. From problem, they become solution aware. From solution, they become product aware. Then they’re most aware. Just kind of noticing, the peoples companies here who are doing well, but not where they want to be, it’s almost … The biggest thing I see everyone doing, is that you’ve become masters at selling here. This is the warm market, right? You become really good at that, but to scale, you’ve got to step back. You’ve got to come back to here. This is like your existing audience, who loves you. This is like Facebook, they love the market, but they don’t understand you. This is like the cold, hard masses and in my mind, the only way to drill past 10 million or so … I think most businesses can be really successful here, you have to master this to get to about 10 and beyond 10, you’ve got to become a master of this. This is like, how do you create your offer in a way that it goes to the masses, which is very similar to what Craig was talking about. That’s kind of how I look at things, and it kind of leads me to the first important thing I want to talk about here. It’s called the Epiphany Bridge. Anybody here ever done network marketing? Speaker 1:           We’re very [inaudible 00:07:36] Russell Brunson:               [inaudible 00:07:36], they’ve done network marketing. Okay, so I’m going to grab something real quick, cause it’ll help illustrate this. I have a buddy who started a network marketing company and he wanted me to join in and to market. I said no a million times, but eventually he sent me some of the product. I loved it, it was really, really good. This is a company called Prove It. Anybody here ever heard of Prove It? No one here? Okay. If you’ve studied Dave Ashbury’s stuff about high fat diet, skinnier body [inaudible 00:08:03], this is the product they made. You drink it, outs your body immediately in ketosis. Tastes like candy, and it’s awesome. I helped them write a pitch and wrote this pitch for them. They took it out and in the first six months, the company had $20 million dollars this pitch. This year’ll be over a hundred million dollars, and it’s just growing like crazy, because of the pitch. Now, I want to explain. After the pitch, they wanted me to come out to the leadership team and explain to these network marketers how to use this [inaudible 00:08:30] that I created for them, right? I’m like, I love network marketers, but I’m also scared to death of them, cause they’re like … They just pounce on you. You know, that feeling where you’re just like, I was getting pounced by everyone. I come in this room, and I walk in, it’s this room, probably about three times as many people as this, and they want me to show them how to use this new message to sell more stuff. I’m looking out in the audience, and I’m trying to think, “What am I going to talk about to these guys. They don’t understand funnels or marketing. They’re a bunch of people who are selling stuff. As I’m looking out at this audience, of these network marketers, and prior to me coming in the room, I was watching them as they were pouncing on hotel employees and other people, and I had this thing just popped in to my head. I want to share this, cause it’s the key now to everything we do. This is a typical person, right? I’m going to make fun of network marketers, but this is you, right? In your business. We were born, we went to school, things were going well, and all of a sudden, something happened in your life that got you excited about what you’re excited about, right? Dean probably, initially he sold a car and was like, “Holy crap. I can sell cars and make money.” Right? Then he sold a house. Every one of you guys, something happened. You were just normal humans. Something happened and all of a sudden, you had an epiphany, where you were like, “Holy crap, real estate’s the greatest thing in the world. Holy crap, financial stuff.” Something happened, where you had this big epiphany, and it changed your whole life, right? Do you guys all remember that moment, when it happened for you? He got his epiphany and then he went over here and then all of a sudden, the worst thing possible happened. You started like, “This is the coolest thing in the world.” You start geeking out on it, right? I’ll draw this dude with glasses. You start geeking out, and you’re like, “Oh this is so cool.” You start studying, and you just start doing the research, and you start going deep. I was looking at these network marketers, and I was like, “This product …” I was watching these guys in the hallway and people walking by, and they’re pouncing on people, and they’re like, “Dude, you’ve got to quit burning glucose. That’s why you’re so fat. You got to switch your fuel from glucose to ketones. If you do that, you won’t be fat anymore.” It’s like, “Man, if you had beta hydroxy blueberry salt in your drinks and in your coffee …” All this stuff. I’m watching this, right? What happens is we come in to this world, we get excited, and we start geeking out, and the worst thing possible happens to us. We learn this thing we call techno babble. In every one of your businesses, you’ve got a crap ton of techno babble, right? IT’s these words that you use to describe things. What happens is, you meet this prospect, and they’re so cool, and you grab them, and you’re like, “Okay, this is my prospect. I’ve got my shot at him.” You’re about to, like, “I’m going to tell him everything I know, and they’re going to buy my crap, and it’s going to be amazing.” Then it’s “blugh,” and you spew out all this techno babble on the person, right? I’m watching these network marketers just spew out this stuff out at people and they’re freaking out and they run away. For most of your businesses, how many of you guys know that you use techno babble? There’s words for your industry that you use, that you shouldn’t probably be using, okay? The reason why … What happens, this warm market understands your techno babble. They’re excited and they’ll buy your crap over and over and over and over again. Okay? Everybody else? They haven’t geeked out yet. They key, this is what I found, the key for me to sell anything, is I have to stop this right here. I’ve got to cross out techno babble and I’ve got to stop this, cause this is what kills sales. I’ve got to figure out what was it that gave me the experience that caused me to go on this journey? If I can figure out what gave me this epiphany, and if I can give somebody else that epiphany, I do not have to sell them anything, ever. They’ll have that epiphany in their mind and they’re going to geek out and then they will cause a revolution. They will go so crazy on it. I’ve got to step back here. When I was talking to this network marketing group, and the pitch I wrote … I was telling Craig this yesterday. I got equity for the company for writing a pitch. It took me less than an hour to write the entire thing. The reason why, the [inaudible 00:12:11] wrote this pitch he sent to me, it was like the worst thing ever. I was dry heaving in my mouth, like “Ugh, that was such a bad …” It was all this. Thousands of pounds of techno babble, just spewing forth and I couldn’t even read the whole thing. I was like, “This is so bad.” He’s a friend, it was like two o’clock in the morning, I was sitting in bed. I was like, “I know he’s going to call me, wanting me to critique it and give him feedback, but it just sucks, the whole thing.” I just deleted the whole thing and I was like, “I’m just going to rewrite this for him.” The first thing I did, is I was like … Cause I believe in this product. I believe in the concept. I was like, “This is really, really cool.” I was like, “What was it that gave me the epiphany, that got me excited? Why do I drink this crap every day now? What was it that gave me that epiphany?” I was thinking back and it took me a while to realize. I was thinking like, “When was it? Some time in my life, something happened where I was sold on that.” Then I was going back here, and all of a sudden, I remembered. I remembered the moment that I had the epiphany. I was at a seminar. I went out to eat with my buddy, his name’s Aaron Lily. Do you guys ever remember in Skymall Magazine, the cream that they would sell that you put on your mole and your mole would fall off? Have you ever seen that? He’s the inventor of that. I’m out to dinner with the guy. Super cool, doing insane amounts of money with that business. We sit down to eat and he’s super ripped and healthy and everything and he … I order this amazing dinner, and he’s ordering chicken with a side of butter. I thought it was weird. Then he’s eating it, and he’s dipping his chicken in butter and eating it and I’m like, “Dude, you are a freak. What’s wrong?” He was like, “Oh, it’s this whole thing.” All of a sudden, he started giving me techno babble and so I started making fun of him more, cause it just that gave me fuel for my teasing, right? I’m making fun of him and he’s like, “No, no,” He said, “Okay, let me explain it like this.” He’s like, “Your body … ” Wow. “Your body’s kind of like a campfire, right?” He said, “If you think about it, you have a campfire, you feed it kindling, right? You throw a bunch of kindling on it, what happens?” I was like, “It burns really fast, then it goes away.” He’s like, “Okay, cool. That’s like carbs. That’s why you wake up in the morning, you eat Cheerios and you get like Ahh and then like 10 minutes later, you’re starving. Your kids have ADD and they’re bouncing off the walls, cause it’s carbs. You just keep putting more carbs in, your body gets more hungry. That’s how that world works.” I was like, “Okay, cool.” He’s like, “Proteins are kind of like getting a log and you throw a log on the fire and it’ll burn a little bit longer, but same thing. It burns up and then it eventually goes away.” He’s like, “Fats are like coal. It’s like throwing coal on. It’s harder to get the fats to catch on fire, but once they’re on fire, they burn warm and hard and dark. That’s the best energy source, cause as soon as they’re lit up, they’ll burn all through the night.” He said, “That’s like eating fat. If you can transition your body from needing carbs and proteins, to processing fat, then you’ve got this amazing thing where you lose weight, you feel more energy and everything.” I was like, “Oh, so that’s why you’re dipping your chicken in butter. I get it.” It made sense to me, right? [inaudible 00:14:48] this pitch, I just wrote a little, it’s a three minute explainer video, about a dude and a campfire. I tell my epiphany and why it’s important to be in ketosis and how this product puts you in ketosis instantly and that was the pitch. Three minute video, took the company from zero to a hundred million dollars in 18 months. It’s because I figured that out, cause that speaks to everyone. I’m not dropping techno babble and all this other stuff. Does that make sense? The biggest thing that I think I can share with all you guys, is this. Is figuring out how to get out of this state, cause this is where all you guys are stuck at. I’ve heard you guys talking about your business and you’re always throwing techno babble, assuming that any of us have any idea what you’re talking about and most of the times, I have no idea what any of you guys are talking about. It’s because this is so second nature, so you’re super power, this is what you’re good at and you understand. This is where you lead from. If you get rid of that and figure out this piece, this is the key. I’m going to share some other things, because I have so much respect for what Craig does. I don’t think anyone’s ever studied him. It’s probably creepy for him to know how much I watch  what he does, cause I have so much respect. What he does is like a sniper rifle, right? He spends so much time to craft his message, he’s just flawless. When he gets it right, it’s like a sniper rifle and blows up a company. I’m not nearly as skilled as him. What I’ve become a master at is this process, at telling these stories. I watch good copy like his, so I can get good at incorporating it in to my speech patterns. I think I’m kind of like a blend between these two. I’m kind of in the middle there, and I’m doing a lot of stuff to be able to figure out messaging. I’ll kind of show you guys that here in a minute. This is the best copywriting, I think, is mastering this piece. Mastering the telling of stories, because the process that I’m going to show you guys here, you can do a lot of them, every single day you’re doing them, and you’re finding the ones that work and you’re pushing away the ones that don’t. You can move through things really, really quick. Okay? Any questions about epiphany bridge? One other thing, I had a big realization the other day, as I was kind of going through this. How many of you guys have ever had something amazing happen to you, and you go to tell your friend, like, “This cool thing happened.” You’re telling this whole story and they’re like, “Oh.” You’re like, “No, no, no, no.” You tell it to them again and they’re like, “No, that sounds really cool man.” You’re like, “No, dude. God, you had to be there. If you were there, you would have felt what I felt.” How many of you guys have ever done that before? Right? That’s the biggest problem we have, is a lot of times when we tell these stories, this is why it’s so important to become good at this, is we just, we suck at telling the story and then they don’t have the epiphany. My job is not to tell them what epiphany they’re supposed to have. My job is to set up an environment and a story that causes them to have this epiphany. When Marcus Lemonis spoke at our last funnel hacking live event, I had a 30 minute window before the event started, where we could sit down and just kind of talk, right? First time I’d ever met him and he gets there and he walks in and he’s got this really confused look on his face. He’s like, “I thought you guys were a website builder.” I’m like, “Yeah, we are.” He’s like, “Why is everyone so crazy outside?” You come to our events, it’s more like a Tony Robbins event than anything. People are going nuts and going crazy and I was like, “Well, it’s more than that. We’re building a culture of people that love what we do [inaudible 00:17:57]” He’s like, “What’s a funnel?” First thing I do, stupid me, I start trying to explain from here, and he’s like, “All right, so why’s everyone so excited? I don’t get why everyone’s excited. You build websites.” I was like, “Ugh.” All of a sudden I was like, “Okay, I’ve got to tell my story.” I came back and I told him a story, the story that got me excited about funnels, and I explained that story to him and he was like, “Wait. You’re telling me that these can work for anyone, right?” I’m like, “Yeah.” He’s like, “Well, how would it work for Camping World?” I was like, “Well, this is what I would do.” He’s like, “Okay, well how would this work for Sweet Peas?” I’m like, “I would do this.” “How would this work for …” He starts going through his businesses and after three or four of me telling these stories, he stops and he goes, “Man, every business needs a funnel, right?” It’s like, “Yeah.” He goes, “I got to get you on the show, okay?” I didn’t tell him, “Hey man, Marcus, every business needs a funnel. You should have me on the show.” I took him on a journey, told him a story, then I put it up in the air and let him have the epiphany, right? That’s the key. I want them to have the epiphany. I don’t want to tell it to them. You get them to that state by telling them about the epiphany you had. A couple things about the story telling process, that I’ve learned that work so good. How many of you guys have ever seen the movie, the X-men movie, where they were little kids, before they became the big X-men? You guys remember that? I can’t remember which one it was. There’s this scene when Magneto before he … He was a little kid and they’re taking him to a Nazi concentration camp and they start taking him in, he’s freaking out and they see the fences start kind of bending and they’re like, “There’s something with this kid. He’s got some magic powers.” They pull him in this room and it’s this really tiny room, it’s got Magneto sitting here, it’s got the head of the Nazi party there and it’s got Magneto’s mom. She’s sitting there crying, standing there. The Nazi guy is telling him to move this coin, there’s a coin on the desk and little Magneto’s trying to move it and trying to move it and he can’t get the power to do it. He’s trying and he’s trying and he’s trying, nothing’s moving. Then the Nazi guy gets kind of frustrated and looks over, pulls out a gun, shoots his mom in the head, boom and the mom falls dead on the ground. Then you see this scene that’s like so powerful. You see this little kid’s face and you see the pain and the agony. You see his whole body convulse down, like “My mom just died.” Then it transforms from this pain, to this anger and then he comes back up with this just pure anger in his eyes and everything. You see him and he shoves the coin across, he starts crushing all the metal , crushing and everything starts falling around him and he just destroys this whole room. That’s how he found his power, right? Now, when watching film, you see that, right? Now words were said, but you see all these things that were happening. You see the pain, you see the frustration, you see the anger, you see … Us, as an audience, as we’re watching that, we feel it. [inaudible 00:20:31] I was just explaining it, you kind of felt some of that. You felt that stuff, right? That’s the magic of film. We don’t … Most of us aren’t producing films to sell our stuff, and so we have to do that through our words. Imagine if Magneto came and he’s like, “Yeah, so when I was a kid, I was in a Nazi concentration camp. They wanted me to move a coin and I couldn’t do it, so they killed my mom. I was pissed, so I blew the whole thing up.” You’re like, “All right.” You wouldn’t have had the experience, right? Magneto came and he started talking about how he felt. When I’m telling my stories, I go in to how I feel. I talk about, “Man, I was sitting there, I was so freaked out because my bills were due and I had this stuff and I had this pain in my stomach and it was almost like a heart attack, but it was lower, and I felt this pressure coming down and I literally felt like someone was sitting on my back. Everything was coming down on my. I looked down at hands and they were sweating, yet I was freezing cold. My whole body was shaking and shivering, because I was in so much pain and frustration, so much fear.” You notice as I’m telling that story, I’m walking you guys through what I’m feeling and you start feeling it your audience starts feeling those things as well, right? My goal, for me telling the story, is I have to get you in the exact same state that I was in when I had the epiphany, or else you will not have that epiphany. If you look at a good author, I mean you’ll read books where an author will come in to the room and they’ll spend 30 pages explaining the room and the lights and the look and the feel and everything, to set up a scene. Deliver some line, cause they need you to feel that line, but you won’t feel it if they haven’t set it up correctly. If I want you to have this epiphany, I have to get you in the exact same state that I was in when I had it. Okay? Tony Robbins 101, stay in control. I have to control their state and I do that by telling the story in a way to get you to feel what I felt, so that when I explain how I had my epiphany, you have the exact same epiphany. Does that make sense? Is that the coolest thing? I realized that, I was just like, “This is like a whole nother level.” It’s so easy when you start understanding, this is how the pieces work and how they all kind of flow together. Any questions about that at all? All right, so if you flip over to the next page. In my inner circle group, people always ask me, “Okay, I got that [inaudible 00:22:44]. What’s the process now?” I’m a big … What I do a lot of times, I go through and I look at patterns. I go through and dissect like a hundred sales videos like, “What’s the pattern?” Then I like sketching out patterns, based on that, so I can replicate it over and over again. I started going through all the stories I tell and I was looking at commonalities. Also, we had an event where we hired … Any of you guys know Michael Hauge? Michael Hauge, I write his name down, Michael Hauge, H-A-U-G-E? There’s an audio with him and, I think, Chris Volgler, on Itunes. It’s like a six hour story telling workshop they gave. It’s like the best thing in the world. Michael Hauge is, he works in Hollywood and he … We had him come to one of our events and he was showing everybody, he was like, “Look at any movie that’s ever been successful from the beginning of time, like Batman, Spider man, Titanic, anything. They all follow the exact same script.” He’s like, “If you look at the screenplay that you get,” He’s like, “On page number three is when the hero does this. On page 13, they always do this. On page 26 … Every movie, it’s exactly the same.” He came and talked, but if you listen to that class, it’s a college class he’s teaching on story telling. It’s insane. In fact, have you guys ever seen the movie Hitch? When Will Smith wrote that movie, it was before him and Michael Hauge were like best friends. Will Smith said, “I was studying Michael Hauge’s stuff and I was writing Hitch, 100% trying to follow the keys that Michael Hauge taught.” Then when it was done, he met Michael Hauge and they became best friends, like super good friends. Now Will Smith, all these guys, Michael’s the dude they go to help map out the screenplay. Super fascinating stuff. This became, as I started looking at it, the outlines for most of my stories, but also the outlines, very similar to what they teach in Hollywood. It’s kind of interesting, if you go in to it. If you’re looking at how I typically teach things, or how I tell my stories, they all start with the backstory. The big reason why is because it’s this, right? Coming back to here, people see you over here as this guru on the mountain, if you start your presentation from there. They have no faith r trust or hope in you, right? It’s like, “Ugh. That’s Dean. He can get there, but I can’t.” You’ve got to come down the mountain, come back to where they’re at and be like, “Hey man, this is where you’re at. I was here too. Come on, let’s go on a journey. I’m going to take you where we’re going.” You start with the backstory. The backstory usually leads you to some kind of wall, which typically is the same wall that your audience is in right now, that’s listening to you. Then the first thing you talk about is the external struggle, cause this is what your audience is willing to admit. “Yeah, I needed more money,” or “Yeah, I needed to get in shape.” You talk about, that’s the first struggle. Then the second thing’s, you’ve got to get to the internal struggle, cause this is the only thing that actually matters. This is what Dean was talking about yesterday. Seven why’s. This is how I get to my internal struggle. External, I need more money. I ask five or six or seven why’s. Why, why, why, why, why? That’s the real reason why they care. In your story, you don’t talk about … You mention the external, cause that’s where they’re at. Then you go in to the internal. You talk about the internal thing that you were struggling with, cause that’s where it gets them. You’re controlling state, right? That’s where you get in to the same state you were in, cause you’re actually talking to them on a level that they don’t ever share. When you’re willing and able to share that, then it causes the empathy you need. From there something happens, you had this epiphany. “Whoa, check out how cool this thing was.” Then, after the epiphany, you’re like, “Here’s the plan, what I’m going to do.” After you have the plan, usually you still freak out like, “Ugh, is it going to work? What if it fails?” We talk about the painted picture of failure. Then we have the call to action, and then, at the end of it, we have the result. This is kind of an example. I have this on my desk, when I’m doing videos, doing stuff, I just look at this all the time. I make sure I don’t miss pieces of it. I probably tell, I don’t know, 40 or 50 stories a day. If you look at how much we’re publishing stuff, I’m just telling stories all day long, and I want to make sure that I’m following a process. This is there, and this little thing will help, these questions will help walk you through what’s your back story and what did you want? There’s a problem you encounter, how’d you make it feel? What was the external struggle? What was the internal struggle? What was the epiphany you had? What plan did you come up with after the epiphany? What would happen if you failed? How’d you take action? What was the end experience? Some epiphany bridge stories I tell are a minute to two minutes. Some of them are 30 to 40 minutes. I tell a lot of them. Every one of my presentations … One of the presentations I did, one of the guys on my team was counting things and in a 56 minute presentation, I told like 30 something stories. I’m telling them a lot, consistently, over. If you guys ever watch  my stuff, I can tell story after story after story after story, because that’s what gets people here. If you notice, any time I get to something where I come to some kind of technical thing, like when I did the pitch for this. I had to explain ketones, causes there’s a word called ketones. Ketones is techno babble, right? As soon as I get to the word ketone, I say, “Ketone.” Then I stop and I say, “Ketones kind of like,” I step back, “It’s kind of like a million motivational speakers, running through your body.” Like, “Oh, cool.” Now they’ve got what ketones are and I keep moving on. Any time I introduce any kind of techno babble, I stop instantly, take a step back, I tell a really quick story to make it so that that word means something to them, and then I can keep moving on. Anyway, I’m doing that over and over. Does that help for like a tool for you guys, how to … People always say “How do you do your sales videos now?” It’s Really this. These are how, mostly everything we create is from that.

Overview of Episode #20. The following topics are covered:  Focus: Helping Leaders Create a Culture of Accountability on their team and in their organization.  I share a seven question quiz to test your understanding around performance expectations.  I show you how to use a three step model, the Job Dashboard, as an easy way to create and share performance expectations and keep people accountable. Book Mentioned in This Podcast - complimentary audio book and support this podcast by using my affiliate link:  www.pricelessprofessional.com/audible - The Amazon Way: 14 Leadership Principles Behind the World's Most Disruptive Company Video Resource:  How to Create a Job Dashboard Book Reference:  How to Hire Superior Performers: 70 Tips, Best Practices and Strategies Contact me at: 770-578-6976 or suzie@pricelessprofessional.com Timing on Recording: @ 1:48  --- Topic 1: Performance Expectations - Seven Question Quiz - Test Your Understanding What client Jim shared and how that prompted this Series Upcoming programs in this Accountability Series Quiz  (Agree or Disagree): 1) When team members help set their own performance expectations they tend to underestimate what they can accomplish. (Agree or Disagree?) 2) Not all performance expectations can be stated so that they are measurable. (Agree or Disagree?) 3) The best performance expectation plans are loose and flexible. (Agree or Disagree) 4) Not all expectations have to be written. (Agree or Disagree) 5) Most team members do not like have performance expectations. (Agree or Disagree) 6) Specific performance expectations help a manager evaluate a team member's performance. (Agree or Disagree) 7) Having team members share their performance expectations promotes team work. (Agree or Disagree) Timing on Recording: @ 12:16   --- Topic 2:  Story/Analogy That Explains What a Job Dashboard Is... A Job Dashboard is a performance management and hiring tool that succinctly describes the top three to five performance expectations (or priorities) that are crucial for superior performance in a position.  The employee gets involved in deciding what actions he/she will take for each of the Dashboard Expectations or Priorities and it is referenced often to track progress or breakdowns. Dashboard Story... Here is an EXAMPLE of one Performance Dashboard for a Senior Customer Service position:     Priority #1.) Customer Satisfaction provided at required levels.       Priority #2.)  Become a product expert & learn new features as they are released.     Priority #3.) Complete all orders and requests according protocol.     Priority #4.) Train and mentor new customer service reps. Timing on Recording: @  20:45 --- Topic 3:  How to Create a Job Dashboard A simple three-step goal setting guidelines process that is easily remembered with the acronym: R.P.M. Can use post it notes. 1.  R.    Respond & Brainstorm Question What must happen or the job has failed?”   Or said in a positive way, “This must happen in the job for superior performance…”   Think about the job and past people in the job.  Think about what you liked and what was a 'disaster'.  Brainstorm your answers.  2.  P.    Place Responses, Create Headlines & Prioritize Group all of the answers you brainstormed into 3 to 5 categories.  Create a summary statement or headline for each category. 3.  M.   Metrics Are Added & Interview Questions Selected Select measurements for each category. Create and select the best interview questions for each. You can create: • By yourself (I do this for my own position) • With the employee • For a position you are filling - include three to eight subject matter experts (SMEs) who have a vested interested in the success of the Position.  (I facilitate these types of discussions.) The main objective here is to just have a Job Dashboard for every Position. If you can't get a group of SMEs together, do it by yourself. Watch me create a dashboard - video here. www.pricelessprofessional.com/dashboard Why a Job Dashboard Matters and How It Helps You: - Helps you and the employee get very clear about what's important and what matters the most.  Promotes clarity and purpose.  Eliminates confusion.  - Improves ownership of their job and makes accountability conversations objective and non-threatening.   -  Help you have clear, honest and straightforward performance review conversations with every employee.    -  Helps new hires focus on what matters most for success in their new position, setting them up for quicker up time, less overwhelm and a greater probability of success.  Timing on Recording: @ 28:20   --- Topic 4: Conversations With Your Employee Review top priorities with employee, ask their view Get the employee to share actions they are willing to take Negotiate any actions that are too high or too low - get clarity and agreement around what the actions will be. Create the measurements TOGETHER, AFTER you've agreed on the action. Have the employee repeat back to you what was agreed upon in the Dashboard.  Make sure you are both on the same page. Schedule a time RIGHT THEN - open your calendars and schedule a time to meet and follow up. Timing on Recording: @ 35:07  --- Topic 5:  Get the Employee Involved Job Dashboard, three steps, get the employee involved = more commitment, motivation and cooperation. Once set YOU MUST hold team members accountable to them..  Follow up, reference them… and support their performance by providing resources, encouragement, providing performance feedback and coaching, and recognition. When hiring and interviewing the Performance Dashboard helps: -     Avoid the three biggest interview mistakes, because it keeps interviewers focused on the skills and attitude that are most important for success in the job. -     The interview team ask the right interview questions because all interviewers are  'on the same page' around what's most important in the job. -     Focus on the right final selection criteria so that the interview team does not over-focus on the candidate's likability and/or background. -     Create clearer and more specific job postings so that you attract candidates who are a great match to the position. -    Delivers a consistent message to all candidates and new hires about what's expected in the job. -    Leaders do a much better job of instilling confidence in new hires and setting them up for success. Subscribe via iTunes or Leave a Review Books Mentioned in This Podcast Get a complimentary audio book and support this podcast by using my affiliate link:  www.pricelessprofessional.com/audible   The Amazon Way: 14 Leadership Principles Behind the World's Most Disruptive Company How to Hire Superior Performers: 70 Tips, Best Practices and Strategies Related Service: Short- Term Leadership Coaching – Using TriMetrix Leadership Training Interview Skills Training - Dodge the Duds Schedule a Complimentary Consulting Call or Send Me Feedback: Contact Suzie STAY IN TOUCH: Are you a leader, trainer or consultant focused on building a Wake Up Eager Workforce?  Subscribe to this Podcast Here.   You can also sign up for monthly email updates, here.   Thank you for being a part of the Wake Up Eager Workforce Podcast!!

Arash Komeili cell biologist, Assc. Prof. plant and microbial biology UC Berkeley. His research uses bacterial magnetosomes as a model system to study the molecular mechanisms governing the biogenesis and maintenance of bacterial organelles. Part 2.TranscriptSpeaker 1: Spectrum's next Speaker 2: [inaudible] [inaudible]. Speaker 1: [00:00:30] Welcome to spectrum the science and technology show on k a l x Berkeley, a biweekly 30 minute program bringing you interviews featuring bay area scientists and technologists as well as a calendar of local events and news. Speaker 3: Hello and good afternoon. My name is Renee Rao. I'll be hosting today's show. Today we present part two of our interview with a Rosh Kamali. Dr [inaudible] is a cell biologist and associate [00:01:00] professor of plant and microbial biology at UC Berkeley. Previously on spectrum, he discussed his work with magneto tactic bacteria. Here's Dr Camilia explaining why these bacteria so interesting. Speaker 4: We work with a specific type of bacteria. They're called magneto is tactic bacteria and these are organisms that are quite widespread. You can find them in most aquatic environments by almost any sort of classification. You can really group them together if you [00:01:30] take their shape or if you look at even the genes they have, you can't really group them into one specific group as opposed to many other bacteria that you can do that, but unites them together as a group is that they're able to orient in magnetic fields. And some along magnetic fields Speaker 3: today. In part two of his interview, Dr [inaudible] explains how these discoveries might be applied and discusses the scientific outreach he does in our community. Here is Brad swift interviewing a Kamali, Speaker 4: [00:02:00] so how is it that you're trying to leverage what you're learning about the magnetic zone? You're trying to apply it in any way. Are you still really in the pure research mode? I think we're starting to move out or at least branch out to try to do some applications as well. This has been a really, one of the areas of research that's been the most active, or at least the most thought about for Magna [inaudible] bacteria for the last 40 years or so of that people have been working on it. You have two [00:02:30] features of the magnesiums that immediately can be thought of as being very useful for applications, but one is that they're making something that's nanometers size. Very small is magnetic and it has very, very irregular dimensions, quite free of impurities. So you can make magnetic particles in the lab and people have gotten very good at it actually, but it's often very hard to control some of their features. Speaker 4: Maybe contaminants can kind of bind my net [00:03:00] particles pretty easily. And then on top of that you have to sort of use certain types of chemical conditions that are not so favorable. Maybe the Ph has to be a little bit high or chemicals that you don't want to use. And that's one of the reasons why the bacteria are so great. Right? Then as I said, they make an Organelle in this case to magnetism. So then within this tiny 50 nanometers sphere, they can just make what is otherwise a toxic condition inside of that and make this magnetic particle. But the cells are [00:03:30] growing in relatively harmless growth media at 30 degrees centigrade. So you can make magnetic particles under what are not toxic conditions because the bacteria are taking care of that inside of the cell. So that's one of the reasons people have been really fascinated by them. Speaker 4: So how can we take these sort of perfect crystals out of these bacteria and apply them to something else? The other aspect of it that's really important to recognize is that it's not just that the bacteria are randomly making magnetic particles. [00:04:00] They actually have a whole set of genes that they're used to build a magnetism and build the magnetic particle. So the ability to make a magnetic crystal is in coated in jeans, so you can not only extract the magnets out of these bacteria to use it for applications. Maybe you can extract the genes and put them into another organism and now give that other organism the capability to make magnetic nanoparticles. They're [00:04:30] magnetic properties, mixed them, really useful for many different kinds of applications. One of them, they can be potentially contrast agents for magnetic resonance imaging or MRI. When you get an MRI, does a lot of structures that are easily seen, but a lot of things are sort of invisible to the MRI and if you had a little magnetic particle in that region, you'd be able to see it better. One idea is can we put the genes as we learn more about them, can we sort of gather [00:05:00] up a minimum set of genes that are sort of sufficient to make a magnetism and a magnetic particle and then just put those into some other cell types and then see if that's enough to make a magnetic particle and that settle and they can we track it by MRI or something so that that's actually the focus of a grant that we recently got with a few other groups on campus. As a large collaborative grant, Speaker 4: how will you start to [00:05:30] prove that concept? I think we're taking many parallel approaches for it. You know, both to show the utility or the different ways that you would have to image them. One group is working on essentially technologies for imaging, magnetic nanoparticles and animals, and then we are sort of at the very other end of the spectrum and the collaboration, we're trying to say, we think we have a set of genes that are sufficient. This process, let's start taking baby steps [00:06:00] and move them to other types of cells, whether they're bacteria or other cells. And see if we can produce magnetic particles in those cells. Are other collaborators they're focusing more on, well, if we know these genes, can we start transferring them to mammalian cells and then in animal studies we could track cells using magnetic resonance imaging. Each group has focusing on a different aspect of the project. Speaker 4: Some of the other applications are really fascinating too. There's one where [00:06:30] particles hold their magnetic properties very stably and if you give a very strong magnetic field then you can kind of flip the dipole moment of the crystal. You can do this back and forth, keeps switching it, and if the pulse is switching faster than the dipole man can flip on the magnetic protocol. The difference in energies essentially released as heat. We can in that way heat the particle. There's a lot of anticancer treatments to try to essentially have the particles adhere to [00:07:00] a tumor and then heat the particles using this method. Just have the heat of the particles, kill the cells locally. There's been quite a few papers on it and some of these types of studies are in clinical trials to see how effective that could be for different kinds of tumors. Speaker 4: Yeah. Bacteria seems to get used that way. More and more to go into a tumor and linger just on the tumor and continue to just be very local in terms of very specific. And that's, you know, [00:07:30] local drug delivery or local attacking of tumor cells would be something that's very, this bacteria have this great access that other organisms don't have. If you can localize them and direct them. And that's sort of some, there's some other work which I think is also really interesting is to thinking about the magna detected bacteria as a vehicle for delivering drugs. You know, one of the things you can imagine is that you could guide them with a magnetic fields so you can have them guided to some [00:08:00] areas in the body by an external magnetic field. And there's definitely some people who are working on that. Can they move the bacteria through vasculature to a certain area because they can swim along magnetic field. Speaker 4: So if you want to localize it somewhere, you would have to instigate that field there. Yeah, exactly. To direct it. Right. The stuff I was telling you about with the heat treatment, I think all of that is trying to, right now at least because there's not much known about how to target the bacteria, they work with kinds of tumors that are accessible [00:08:30] so that you could inject the particles into the tumor directly directly to the tumor as opposed to try to do a systemic thing. Yeah, exactly. But you can imagine that maybe one benefit of the is is that they are surrounded by biological membrane and you can have proteins on them and people have done this pretty, you can display specific proteins on the surface of magnesiums, so then you could customize your, I need a zone to have affinity for certain types of proteins [00:09:00] or certain types of cells. Some proof of concept of that has been done for sure. Speaker 5: Mm MM. Speaker 3: Our guest on spectrum today, is it rush Molly, I cell biologist and associate professor at UC Berkeley. In the next segment. Dr Camelli speaks more about some of his collaborative. This is k a l x Berkeley. [00:09:30] [inaudible]. Speaker 4: The work you're doing with a sequencing is a lot of it. Trying to catalog everything. Keep track of what's, what sort of explain the sequencing side of what you're doing. The sequencing side, we are fortunate that the organism that we work with is in pure culture. Our lab rat essentially has been already sequenced by someone else. When we sequence, [00:10:00] it's more to make sure if we're going to put some gene fusion into the bacteria or that what we have is correct. Our sequencing is relatively limited. We are trying to branch out more and say nowadays technologies for sequencing the whole genome are much more accessible, affordable, certain types of genetics that we do where we try to delete genes or randomly mutate them. Then we can just start identify what's changed by going back and just sequencing the whole [00:10:30] genome or the bacteria. We are doing a little bit of that. Speaker 4: We do it on campus very accessible and affordable, but it's really something that was unthinkable even five, six years ago that you could do this on a large scale, do it affordably. And it could be a pretty routine tool in research. Sorry, I mean it's a really exciting, actually you're not gonna necessarily have to be restricted to these lab rats that do represent some of the general features of the process you're interested [00:11:00] in, but not the diversity of fitness necessarily. And so you can say, instead of studying just one organism, maybe I can study many other ones. There's still a lot that I can do with my model system in the law that I can't do with some of these other unconventional organisms, but they're at least visible to me. Their genes are visible to me and I don't have to isolate them away from everybody else to get an understanding of [00:11:30] what their genetic makeup is and where they are. Speaker 4: And for things like microbiome studies is revolutionize the whole field. They were, they were always just looking at such a small sliver of what they could isolate. Yeah. And now you can look at everything, you know, they can do lots of really interesting experiments like what's on your fingers, what's on your, you know, how's your right hand different from your left hand and microbial content. Yeah. You know, so that's really interesting. Yeah, it gets very refined. Is synthetic [00:12:00] biology involved in what you're doing in some way? Yeah, definitely. So what I was telling you about the applications, you know, essentially, I mean synthetic biology, I guess there's different ways of defining it. For me, you have inspiration from some biological system and now you're trying to extrapolate that and put it in a new context to do something new or something different than it normally does. Speaker 4: Though. What I was telling you about this, this project that we have on campus or does not support [00:12:30] it by the Keck foundation to put the magnetism genes into other organisms, but that's essentially synthetic biology. So yeah, we are really relying on that and trying to see if we're going to move these genes, how are they going to be more, how can we customize them so that they work better in the new organisms they go to? Can we add on things to them or take things away and doing this using synthetic biology essentially that it would fall under the category of synthetic biology. Sort started like mixing and matching genes and in [00:13:00] new contexts that you wouldn't have naturally. And what sort of safety protocols do you have to abide by in your research? For? For our research, we are working with something that's non-pathogenic that's quite harmless. Speaker 4: We follow the, the university has pretty strict guidelines for even for nonpathogenic organisms. Anytime you're working with recombinant DNA, even those things I was telling you where we are making a fluorescent protein fusion, we really [00:13:30] have to be careful about how we get rid of things and you know, don't just dump it down the drain. Safety-Wise. We don't really use anything harmful in the lab. I think maybe you're getting more into like what do you do with the hybrid organisms somehow and there we have to be, you know, we're always careful about how we dispose of materials. Eat cultures are always killed by bleach or heating before we dispose of it. You know, often people [00:14:00] say imagination runs wild with them. Right. You know? Yeah. And a lot of that has to do with fiction. Yeah. Books and movies and things. But I think it's important to sort of sort of what prompts me to ask. Speaker 4: And I think a lot of times maybe scientists think about that too late, you know, so, so maybe it may not be the first thing you say. That'd be the first thing you think about. And then it may also, it may not be in your training expertise or whatever to even know what would be dangerous. So I, I, [00:14:30] is that something that the university is helping with in the sense of certainly providing those kinds of resources to you so you don't have to be expert, right? We don't. Yeah, exactly. How can you be, and also you know, we have to comply with not just handling of biological organisms, but just how the lab functions. We have not only have to comply with university rules, but we have federal rules for worker safety, city rules that are different. So we have five or six different sort of safety protocols that we have to [00:15:00] abide by and we do get inspections once a year and I know people who work with animals, they have even more extensive things. I'd have to go through a whole separate set of protocols to just the sort of ethical treatment of the animals approved by independent boards and things like that. And the funding agencies have a lot of rules, so they give us money, but they expect us to follow certain types of rules. Speaker 2: [inaudible] [00:15:30] you're listening to spectrum on k a Alex Berkeley. Our guest is a Raj Chameleon. In the next segment he speaks about his work on outreach to the broader public [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] Speaker 4: I noticed you've got a Twitter account. I do, yeah. And is that sort of part [00:16:00] of an outreach effort on your part to get the community involved or people interested in what you're doing? How do you view outreach going forward for your projects? Yeah, so the Twitter thing is you'd asked me that outreach are fun and I think it's both. It's not anonymous. You can be social, my name, you can find it. We have one for the lab also, which not very active at all by mine. A lot of people that I follow are other scientists. I think it is not known so well that there are many scientists on Twitter and there's great outreach [00:16:30] because often is a great way to share new findings and research or things that are exciting to people or having a discussion within the community, but this all accessible. Speaker 4: None of it is anonymous, so you can really see that. It's also fun obviously. For example, I encourage people to look out there. There's a lot of great science writers who take research findings and they in science blogs turn it into very accessible stories to understand the latest developments in research for [00:17:00] outreach. We try to do a lot of things. Members of my lab go out to, there's different events where scientists can interact with the community. I've done a few microbiology experiments with my son's classroom and you know, kindergarten, first, second grade. For me it's been really eye opening to do that because you see you all, sometimes you think what you're doing is so inaccessible on out there. But when you go and just talk to people you see that they can get really excited about, especially kids, [00:17:30] kids can get really excited about micro was, which is kind of funny because it's not something they can see and they really only heard about bad germs. Speaker 4: They've only heard about things that can hurt them and it's just great to go out there and talk about things that are good germs and on their bodies and everything. So we do a little experiment where we take the little auger played, which has the growth for the bacteria. They put their little fingerprints on it or they can see over the course of few days, bacteria grow on there. They washed her hands and they can see that that changes whether they can grow, [00:18:00] and I do the exact same experiment. I teach undergraduate microbiology lab here. You know, the questions that the undergrads ask are almost exactly the same questions that the third graders ask. So it's great to see that they have the insight and the excitement to learn about science. It just has to be, I think, encouraged and followed up more as they go through schooling. Speaker 4: I think another reason for us to go and do outreaches to just sort of, I get more excited about my work when I go and talk to other people and see that it's not so out there [00:18:30] and the university provides a lot of chances for us to do outreach to it. I mean, just recently we had cal day. There was lots of science on campus. Other blogs that you follow because you'd want to mention some colleagues at Berkeley have blogs, but I think people are more active through Twitter than they are through blogs. The scientific American blogs in general are pretty good. You mentioned the Keck Foundation that's brought together this collaboration that you're going to try to do the applied research on. Are there other collaborations [00:19:00] that you're trying to pursue? Yeah. You know our work, we rely on a lot of collaborations mainly because the bacteria do this really amazing thing of building these magnetic particles and we're always just like the example I told you about with the more high resolution electron microscopy where we were able to see something that we hadn't seen before. Speaker 4: There was a lot of people who were interested in imaging magnetic particles. They're developing instruments all the time that you would be able to look at these things in new ways and [00:19:30] we can't build the same instruments, but it ends up being a really great interaction all the time to find these groups that are developing technologies for imaging bacteria or imaging particles and then see how what we've learned can be applied to their technologies. One great collaboration we've had recently is with the walls worth group at Harvard and they have these, essentially there is a way you can treat diamonds so that there's certain defects on the surface of the diamonds and then you can detect magnetic [00:20:00] fields close to the surface of the diamond can actually essentially image these bacteria that we've worked with sitting on the surface of these diamonds because of their magnetic properties. Speaker 4: It's been great for us because working with them, hopefully we're able to fine tune some aspects of their technique to then study the magnetic particles and the magnetic chains in a different way than we had been so far and learn new things. Basically at any given point we might have seven or eight active collaboration's going on. [00:20:30] A lot of it on our part is not that difficult. We just provide a sample of the bacteria and then they work on it and if it goes somewhere then we go and get more involved in the collaboration. You start iterating with them. Yeah, exactly. This Keck collaboration was out of a brainstorming session. Went from there and we have another collaboration. Also synthetic biology that was just funded by the office of naval research and that's between two or three groups that are in different universities. We had always just talked here and there to each other and all of a sudden we realized that we could do something [00:21:00] together. Speaker 4: And that's how that came about. It's a huge part of science I think is even more now with funding situation and you have to really look for more creative ways of doing your science and your sense is that the funding environment is dwindling. Is that good? Yeah. Yeah. I think it was already bad and the sequester just sort of pushed it down even further. For example, you look at NIH, the amount of money is that increasing, which means it's not keeping up with inflation. So your purchasing power is much less and then all of [00:21:30] a sudden the sequester takes out a few percentages off of what was getting funded to you. So I think both the success rates for getting a grant and the amount of money that you get from that grant are lower. Even if you're lucky enough to be able to get the grant. What you could do with the money is less than before. Obviously, you know, I'm biased, but I don't think it's that great. You're essentially sacrificing the next generation of scientists, limiting [00:22:00] it, limiting it big time. Speaker 4: Was there anything that you wanted to mention? One thing I was going to say is that we've talked a lot about these bacteria, but obviously the visual is the easiest way to really appreciate what they do. And we have a, on my lab website, we have a page of videos where you can see how these bacteria migrate along magnetic fields and you can see images of them and you can see the structures within the solid with the magnesium. So clinic. So, so people go to [inaudible] [00:22:30] lab.org they can actually see videos of the bacteria. Great. Yeah, that'd be good. Yeah. Arash Kamali. Thanks very much for being on spectrum. Thank you so much. This was a lot of fun. Speaker 2: [inaudible]. You can follow Rajkot Maley on Twitter at micro magnet or you can watch them. Fantastic [00:23:00] sell videos on his website Oh Maley, that is k o n e I l I e lab.org and now a few of the science and technology events happening locally over the next few weeks and Rick chronicity joins me in presenting the calendarSpeaker 3: this Monday. The California Academy of Sciences will host a talk by Dr. John Jenkins, [00:23:30] senior research scientist at the Seti Institute. Dr. Jenkins will speak about NASA search for other habitable planets. In 2009 NASA launched the space cough known as Kepler into orbit in order to survey our own region of the Milky Way. Kepler's has been looking for planets that are similar in size and distance from a son to our owners. In those four years. The probe has collected data on over 190,000 stars and confirmed over 130 new planets. Dr. Jenkins [00:24:00] will discuss the exciting you dated that capital has provided as well as a few of the technical and scientific challenges that went into building a vessel at Kepler. He will also give a brief overview of tests. NASA's next mission to detect earth's closest cousins. This event will be held Monday, July 15th at 7:30 PM in the planetarium of the California Academy of Sciences. Go to cal academy.org to reserve a ticket in advance. Speaker 6: The theme for July is adult science, happy hour science, [00:24:30] neat. His brains, brains, grains, everything you've always wanted to know about your brain and more. There'll be talks in demos on memory, truth and tricks, neurobiology, human brains, a sheep brain dissection and illusions. Science neat takes place at the El Rio bar. Three one five eight mission street in San Francisco and mission for those 21 and over is $4 this month's [00:25:00] science need is on Tuesday, July 16th with doors at six and then talks at six 30 Speaker 3: every Sunday. This month the UC Berkeley Botanical Gardens will be hosting special be explained explainer lectures about the importance of wild bees in the care and maintenance of all gardens and especially in the native California Habitat. The botanical garden also features and amazing collection of plants from nearly every continent. Although there is a focus on plants that thrive in our Mediterranean climate. [00:25:30] The Asian, Californian and South American collections are currently blooming. The garden will be open from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM most days. Although bee explainer tours are only offered from 11 to one 30 on Sundays, admission is $10 for adults and $8 for students. Speaker 6: On Saturday, July 20th at 11:00 AM Dr Steve Croft. We'll give the free public science at cal lecture on snacking gorgeous and cannibalizing the [00:26:00] feeding habits of black holes. Learn about the latest telescopes and how they are giving more information about how black holes grow and merge. Steve Leads the science at cal lecture series and as an assistant project astronomer working on large radio surveys and transient and variable astronomical sources. He helps commission the Allen Telescope Array for science operations and develop data analysis pipelines. He is an expert in the use of data at [00:26:30] a wide range of wavelengths from many different telescopes. The talk is@dwinellehallroomonefortyfivevisitscienceatcaldotberkeley.edu for more information and now Speaker 3: spectrum brings you some of our favorite stories in science and technology news. Rick Kaneski joins me again for the news science news summarized an article published on July 3rd in the proceedings of the royal society a about how surface [00:27:00] tension can lead to upstream contamination. Sebastian BN. Connie observed this when watching the preparation of Argentinian Montay t when hot water was poured from a pot into a container of leaves below some of the tea leaves float upward against the force of gravity and upstream of the water flow being Kinney and his colleagues from the University of Havana and from Rutgers showed through both experiments and simulations. [00:27:30] The particles can flow upstream several meters and up central meter high waterfalls because the downstream flow of clean water creates a gradient. What the container of t or other particles lowering the surface tension of the water, the particles are thus pulled into the clean water which has a greater surface tension. Speaker 3: The team also demonstrated that these results could have practical applications such as through the discharge of a standard pipette in other lab work [00:28:00] or in the simulated release of waste into larger scale channels. Indiana University scientist have transformed mouse embryonic stem cells into key structures of the inner ear. The discovery provides new insight into the sensory Oregon's developmental process and sets the stage for laboratory models of disease, drug discovery, and potential treatments for hearing loss and balance disorders. A research team led by ear. He has Chino Phd and Russi Holton. A professor [00:28:30] at the school of Medicine reported that by using a three dimensional cell culture method, they were able to Koch stem cells to develop into inner ear sensory epithelia containing hair cells, supporting cells and neurons that collectively detect sound had movement and gravity. The researchers reported online Wednesday in the journal Nature, Karl Kohler, the papers first author and a graduate student at the medical school said the three dimensional culture allows the cells to self [00:29:00] organize into complex tissues using mechanical cues that are found during embryonic development. Additional research is needed to determine how exactly inner ear cells involved in auditory sensing might develop as well as how these processes can be applied to develop human inner ear cells. Speaker 7: [inaudible] music heard during the shows witness produced by Alex. Thanks to Rick krones for contributing [00:29:30] to our news and calendar section and to Rene Rao for editing systems. Thank you for listening to spectrum. If you have comments about [inaudible] about Speaker 3: the show, please send them to us via email Speaker 1: or email address is spectrum. Doug k a l x@yahoo.com join us in two weeks at the same time. 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Are you creating the Life that you want?If not! Then something must change! Right?Then listen to part one of The Dynamics of Change - Understanding the Process of Change for great information on the underlying process of change.