Podcasts about todd it

This podcast episode delves into a powerful story of resilience and overcoming mental health challenges. Guest Todd Rennebohm shares his life-changing experience of a 911 call that not only saved his life but also opened up important conversations about mental health and addiction. Throughout the episode, Todd discusses his journey as a mental health advocate, a survivor of suicide attempts, and his recovery from addiction. From being diagnosed with chronic anxiety at a young age to battling alcohol and substance abuse, Todd's story sheds light on the connection between mental health and substance use. Todd emphasizes the importance of self-advocacy and seeking help within the flawed healthcare system. The episode also touches on Todd's book, which tackles the topic of mental health through a child's perspective, aiming to start conversations and normalize discussions surrounding mental health in families. ..................................................................................... Listen to Todd's podcast Bunny Hugs & Mental Health on Apple podcast or Spotify Follow Todd on Instagram @bunnyhugspodcast .................................................................................... RISING STRONG LINKS: Get new episode notifications: bit.ly/risingstrongupdates Follow us on Instagram: @risingstrongpodcast Facebook page - send your reviews and comments via the 'comment' button here: www.facebook.com/risingstrongpodcast WIN SWAG: · Email a screenshot of your 5-star review for a chance to win some Rising Strong swag! Lisa@LisaKBoehm.com Remember to follow and subscribe so you never miss an episode ..................................................................................... TRANSCRIPT: host/Lisa: In today's episode, we unravel the powerful story of a lifechanging 911 call that not only saved a life, but also opened up a conversation about mental health and addiction. Welcome to the Rising Strong podcast. I'm your host, Lisa, and today's guest is going to inspire you in so many ways. Tod and I met almost exactly one year ago at a mental health event where he openly shared his journey from the stage. He's a mental health advocate, suicide attempt, survivor in recovery from addiction, speaker, author and host of Bunny hugs and mental health. Welcome to the show, Todd. Todd Thank you. It's lovely to see you again. And at that exact same event a year ago this year, you were speaking at it. And so that was very exciting. Lisa: Right? It seems like we're like in a pinball game or something where we keep literally bumping into each other at these mental health events. So clearly, I really believe in the universe. When you meet people, it's for a reason. Todd: It's a reason. A season or a lifetime, I've been. Lisa: Told yes, or a lesson somewhere in there, I have a few lesson people. Todd: Well, yeah, that too. Yeah, sure. Right. Lisa So we're having this chat because you've had a long journey with mental health. How long does that go back and when did things start? Todd: Oh, boy. This could be a three hour episode if we wanted it to be, but it actually started in grade five. I was diagnosed with a stomach ulcer. When you're grade five, most kids don't have stomach issues that like 80 year old ceos of billion dollar companies have because they have so much anxiety and pressure and worry. But that is an ailment that kind of runs in my family. My grandfather had it and my mom has issues, so nobody thought anything of it. So they treated me for the physical part of it, but nobody really questioned why was there anxiety? Why does he worry so much? And that was the thing. Nobody called it anxiety when I was grade five. So I'm 46 years old, so that was almost 40 years ago. So, yeah, the word anxiety wasn't really a thing. It was more like, oh, you worry too much, or my mom would call it a nervous stomach. So the nervous boy love. It's called chronic anxiety, actually. So that's kind of when it started. And then in high school, I kind of was introduced to alcohol. Being in a small town mean, I say that, but I mean, kids drink everywhere. But that was very much the culture when I was that age in small town Saskatchewan. And a lot of my anxiety kind of, I don't know, it didn't go away, but I didn't worry about every little thing like I used to. And then, yeah, out of high know, drinking turned into more and more. And there's a lot of addiction to my family, a lot of anger issues with the men. So a lot of my anxiety and depression eventually turned into anger. I was bouncing around from job to job. It's so weird. I've been discussing this lately, how life can be very polarizing at all times. So it's like some of these moments, I look back and it's like, that was the darkest time of my life. But then I'm also like, oh, but I had so much fun, too. So it's like you can be miserable and happy at the same time, and it's hard to wrap your head around how that's possible. But I don't know if it's like different frequencies, so they're not actually overlapping, they're actually just happening at the same time or something. Anyway, yeah, I used to play in bands and stuff, and it was like, I mean, talk about touring with a band and stuff. It is so much fun, but also so anxiety inducing. And you're drinking all the time and you're calling home and the girlfriend's crying and upset and missing you. And so it's like, yeah, it's very polarizing. So anyway, I had cool things like that going through my life, but also just everyday kind of schlub stuff. Band breaks up, and then you're doing just labor jobs for minimum wage. So then my anxiety depression stuff kind of turns more into the anger. And I think I'd rather feel depressed than angry. I can't stand that feeling. I'd wake up angry and go to work angry just because I felt unfulfilled or something, or not satisfied with life and the drop of a hat. I would just be throwing stuff and smashing stuff, and it's not a good look. I mean, I felt like a child having a temper tantrum. Like, I've seen family members do it, and every time I'm just like, oh, my God, this is so, one, scary for people, two, just annoying. You just want to shut up. And then there I am doing it, and it's like, oh, my God, I hate this. But eventually I started drinking and using marijuana constantly, and my issues came to a head. I had a suicide attempt. I tried going to the hospital once and was basically turned away, which is kind of a reason for when I started advocating, because I went to the ER and was turned away. So then, yeah, eventually stuff came to a head again and I ended up. I quit drinking, and that was huge for my anger and my depression. Still working through anxiety, then Covid hit and more job bouncing around. Then eventually I was diagnosed with ADHD about a year ago. And so this fall I was working with EMDR therapists to maybe work through some of my trauma stuff. It's basically lifelong, and there's always, anytime you peel off a layer, there's another layer there that you could definitely work on. And whether it's you use the same strategies or the same tools that you used before, or you need a different strategy like EMDR, or a different diagnosis, like ADHD, a different medication, or a different perspective when it comes to therapies or different modalities. I'm just trying to get through the day without letting these extreme polar feelings pull me one way or another and just keep the balance, really. It's a journey. Lisa: I have a question for you. I just want to circle back to something that you said. Todd: Definitely. Lisa: In your opinion, do you think that there is a connection between. I don't want to just say mental health, but let's say anxiety, just because that's something you're familiar with. Do you think that there's an association, a link, a parallel between substance use, whether it's alcohol or drugs, and anxiety? Todd: I do, of course, everybody's different, but when I worked, because I worked at the treatment center I went to after I quit drinking for a couple of years, and it was quite obvious that addiction is a comorbidity of not just anxiety, but like PTSD, bipolar, different personality disorders. And really an anxiety is just a symptom of a greater thing quite often, too. So, yeah, I do think that substance abuse and anxiety, not only do they link, but they are a very common comorbidity of a lot of other bigger issues, including trauma. And I mean, trauma is also a huge contributor to personality disorders and things. It actually drives me nuts a little bit that when we say mental health and addictions, I wish we could just get rid of the addictions part, because it is part of mental health. When I say mental health or mental illness, it includes addictions. Someday it would be nice to just drop that. But for people that maybe don't understand, I don't know, they're still separated for some reason. Lisa: Absolutely. I found we were talking about this earlier before I hit record. Even amongst our own stories, we are not just this one silo, this single aspect of mental health. I really see mental health myself, as a massive umbrella. And under that umbrella. There are a myriad of topics, including addictions, including grief, including so, so many things. But you're right, the more I learn, and I feel like there's so much still to be learned, that trauma. Trauma, my goodness. I think if we could all heal our traumas, we would probably be far better off. But unfortunately, we live in this symptom, fix the symptom kind of society, right? So we kind of have to pick at the layers, as you say. We kind of maybe get a handle on one layer, and lo and behold, there's another layer to deal with. So interesting. Todd: Sorry, I was going to say also, even with my ADHD, I feel like that's a huge contributor to my anxiety, depression, substance abuse, maybe not the cause. I do think it caused those things, but also other things also contributed to those things. So it's very nuanced. It's all very complicated. There's no one treatment, one pill, one disorder, one diagnosis that's going to fix everything. For me, anyway. I'm finding that I think I have ADHD, but I also think I do have chronic anxiety. On top of that, I also do think that DNA has something to do with it. And nature versus nurture, like you were saying before, you throw spaghetti at the wall and you try different modalities and tools and things, and hopefully you figure out what's going to help you with that particular, I don't know, symptom or whatever. You peel another layer off and you go, okay, that's better. Now moving on to the next one. Lisa Exactly. And I'm certainly not an expert with a bunch of letters behind my name, but I do know that because we are all complex human beings and we are all learning so much more that I think the key maybe is being open. Right? Maybe we don't know what it is that we need or that what's going to, quote unquote, work. I don't know that we can be fixed as human beings as much as people try to fix us, but to cope better or to deal with the situation, whatever it looks like for us. Todd: Or change a belief system within yourself, right? Lisa: A mindset shift, whatever you want to call it. But I think the key is being open and like you say, to keep trying the things, even though you might not think that it's your thing. Like EMDR, man. Game changer. Game changer. When I first read about what it was and what was entailed, I thought, this is insane. I come from a long history of working in the medical system. I'm research driven. I'm data focused. And that EMDR, just when I was reading about it, I thought, well, I'm not so sure about this, but it was one of the greatest things that I did for myself and I cannot say enough about it. Todd: And I tell people all the time, even if it's a placebo and it works. It worked. So who gives a ****? Yeah. Lisa: So tell us about a visit that you had that involved a 911 call. Todd: Well, I'm getting so old. It was like eight years ago. And then it's like someone's like, no, that was like twelve years ago. It's like, oh yeah, I guess you were kidding. So I'm not sure how long ago it was. It was quite a while ago. So this was really some of my darkest times. The year before, I had drove myself to the hospital in Regina, in the ER, asked for help. None was given. And so I felt, as a man in a small town prairie, it was embarrassing for me as a man to go look for help, for emotions. It was huge for me to go do that and then to be told to go home. And basically I was super embarrassed. So I was like, all right, well, I guess I just got to suck it up here. I guess I was already on meds and kind of seen a counselor, but still, it was embarrassing to me. So over the year, I was a bad father, I was a bad husband, I was a bad employee, I was a bad son, and I was using marijuana, drinking all the time I was at a job. I wasn't finding fulfillment in whether that was at the job itself or just because I was in that frame of mind. And things came to a head one day and I had a few drinks in me already. I wasn't like super drunk or anything. My wife said something that triggered me. I don't even remember what. I don't know if it's a psychotic episode, but it's like a dream. I don't remember. I had people fill in some of the blanks, like even years later. But my wife said something and I snapped and I started punching myself in the face. I started slamming my head on the table and it freaked her out. She grabbed our kids. They were little at the time. She went out the door. And while I was there by myself, apparently I just put my head through the wall and I was slamming it as hard as I could against appliances of things. I was convinced in my mind that I just had ruined my life. My wife and kids are gone forever. Over that year, I not just had suicidal ideation, I mean, I was obsessed about it every night before bed, I was pushing knives against my throat and against my wrists, and I was doing really reckless behaviors at work that was dangerous, not for other people, but for myself. When people ask if you had a plan, when doctors are assessing you, do you have a plan? Are you suicidal? Do you have a plan? It didn't matter where I was during my day. I had places I could do things to take my life, right? I worked at the PFRA, at the tree nursery in indian head, and was like, that's a great tree. Mental note. Tools in my shop, I was, like, at work, it was like, didn't matter where I was. I had a plan. So things really came to a head, and, yeah, I was basically slamming my head against stuff. And then my brother showed up. He was the one I had a couple beers with earlier, and my wife apparently went to his place and said, what the hell were you guys doing? Like, you have to go help Todd. He's freaking out. And I pulled out a knife because I'd been practicing for a year, and this was it. And he tried to stop me, and I swung the knife at him, and then he jumped on top of me. He's a big dude. Got on top me and pinned me down. And apparently my sister was there too, and she's, like, trying to get me to smoke weed. To calm down, someone called the ambulance or called 911, and next thing I know, there's three or four police officers in my dining room. They don't know what the hell is going on. They see a knife on the floor. They see a big guy on top of another guy, and all hell breaks loose. Eventually, I'm screaming at them to shoot me. I'm begging them to kill me. I grab one of their guns. I didn't get it out of the holster, but I got my hand on one of their guns. And then things really escalated, and I had parts of my body that I didn't know had feelings that were hurting, because police are very good at detaining people, let's put it that way. And, yeah, they tied me up, and I just remember crying. Not sobbing. I mean, like, scream crying, begging them to shoot me. And I remember saying, like, you're hurting me. I'm tired of hurting. Stop hurting me. I'm tired of hurting. Kill me. Shoot me. But anyway, they detained me and got me in their vehicle, and they took me to my local hospital here in needing head, which then they put me in an ambulance and took me to Regina, to the general hospital, and they finally admitted me into the hospital there. But I remember pulling up. It was almost a year to the day that I tried going to the hospital on my own, and I thought, holy ****, this is what it took to get into the hospital this time, I'm handcuffed to a gurney, strapped to a gurney in an ambulance with two police officers on either side of me. But anyway, I got there. I spent a couple of weeks there, and, I mean, I could write a whole tv series just about the two weeks being in there. And I learned something while I was in there. I learned that you don't really get help in the hospital necessarily. It was a safe place for me to be to chill out for a couple of weeks till I was, like, got my wits about me again. And it did speed up the process to start seeing a psychiatrist because I was on, like, a year long waitlist. And once I got there, it was like, instantly I pushed up the waitlist. So there was that. And it was the beginning, I guess, of my healing process, even though it still took probably five years of really dark moments. There were a couple of kind of rock bottom moments after that, but that was kind of the major one that kind of got the ball rolling a bit. So that was scary. Lisa: Hey, rising strong listeners. If you've been enjoying the inspiring interviews on the podcast, we'd love your support to help us reach more listeners and hopefully gain some sponsorship. To do that, please, like, follow and subscribe wherever you listen to podcast. And here's a little extra incentive. Leave us a five star review, and you'll be entered to win some cool, rising strong swag. Your support means the world to me. Now back to the show. Well, what breaks my heart the most listening to that? Is that something, a situation so extreme is what it took for you to get some attention. Medical, professional, whatever. All the attention. Todd: Yeah. Lisa: How many people suffer in silence? Some people don't have these major breakdowns. That's terrifying that our system is so broken that it takes that much to finally get attention. And then what did your journey after that look like? Were you able to access a psychiatrist or a counselor? Did it tell us what that looked? Todd: Well, actually, while I was in there twice, aa came to my hospital room, and I was like, I shooed them away because I was like, well, I'm crazy depressed. I'm not an alcoholic. I have enough issues. I don't need to join a cult. I shoot them away. In the next few years, I was not thriving. Let's opposite. I was surviving, not thriving, let's put it that way. I was just going through the motions of my day to day. I kind of quit drinking on my own for a little bit, but I really upped my marijuana use because as a stoner, it's like, it's good for you, man. It helps my anxiety, bro. I know different now, but it drives me nuts when I hear people say that. It's not even addicting, man. And then I run out of weed and I have a nervous breakdown 4 hours later. It's my anxiety. Well, yeah, I wonder why I have anxiety. Anyway, I think it was a couple of years later. I did have another stint in the hospital. About a year after that, I had a kind of a bad weekend. It was only a couple of nights I spent in there. I'm doing my best. I'm self employed. Like I said. Eventually I start drinking again. I'm drinking, I'm smoking weed every day. And then I see in the newspaper that the health region or health district or whatever the hell it was called back then, they were laying off. I think it was like 20 some people from the general hospital, all from the psych ward, and I think it was something like 17 of them were psych nurses. And I thought, holy ****, like, I was in there. I know how I've seen how it operates, and I've seen how often security is called. At one point, security was called on me, and I ended up spending the night locked in a room with no bed. They just threw a mattress on the floor, and there was like, cameras. And I was like, security does not de escalate things like the psych nurses are trained. So anyway, I read this. I was like, how is this possible? And once in a while, anger, it's a good motivator. And I was so ****** off. Not like emotionally dysregulated anger. I was like, focused anger. I was like, this is bullshit. So I wrote, I don't know, a letter or blog. I don't know what I was doing. I just let my feelings out on. Well, it's not paper. It was on a keyboard. And I went through my. I basically told my story up to that point and how I thought this is all bs and all this stuff. And I talked about my suicide attempt, which I'd never really done publicly, especially in a small town. And I don't even remember doing this, but I sent it to a bunch of different media outlets and I posted it on facebook and stuff, and it blew up. It kind of went like, I don't know how many tens of thousands of times that letter got shared. I saw it on web pages, like in the states and stuff. Even. I'm like, what is going on? And the next day, it was like all the news outlets from Regina came out to indian head to interview me and talk to me about the stuff. So then I was kind of thrown into this advocacy role that I never thought I'd ever be doing. So then I felt like there was extra pressure on me. Now it's like, oh, okay, I've got people's attention, attention now, so let's keep this ball rolling and make some changes and make a difference. And within two months of having that pressure on me, not that other people were doing it, but my own pressure, I was in the hospital again, and I woke my wife up extremely intoxicated, told her I was going to harm myself and whatever. And that night, I wrote something on my computer. I considered it kind of a suicide note, but it wasn't really a suicide note. But again, a moment of clarity. I woke my wife up. Don't remember. I was so drunk. And that was the last night I drank, actually. I went to the small town hospital here in indian head, and I had an amazing doctor in town at the time, and he basically convinced me to go to treatment and start going to aa and stuff. And so I detoxed in the hospital here for a few weeks. And that really started. Well, actually. Okay, no, the other one started my journey. This was kind of mid journey now, but quitting drinking and quitting the marijuana and all that stuff, that was a huge thing. To this day, I have people reach out to me about a loved one they have, or even about themselves, and they're like, they're drinking, they're using, they're also depressed and all this stuff. And what do we treat first? The depression or the addiction? Again, no two people are the same for me. I had to get rid of that addiction before I could start healing about the anxiety and the depression and what was causing the depression and anxiety. That was the brown skin of the onion. I couldn't even get to layers until that big Chunk came off first. I'm assuming most people are like that, but again, everybody's different. Lisa Yeah. I think that is not a road that I have traveled, however, being on the sidelines of observing people in my life, I would say, from what I have observed, purely that I would concur with that. And so powerful. And it must be so difficult for loved ones spouses. May I ask how your marriage got through these years? I mean, that had to have been a massive strain. Todd: Oh, yeah. There was more than once where I wasn't sure we were going to make it. And I don't want to get too personal, but like I said, I was a bad husband. I was a bad father, I was a bad son. I was doing things that were against my own moral code. And then once you have some moments of clarity, you're like, what am I doing? This is not me. So she was amazing. My wife was amazing. After the first big stay at the hospital, I continued to see my psychiatrist and a counselor regularly. My wife knew somehow she's just a very intelligently, emotionally intelligent person. She knew that we couldn't work as a couple until she dealt with some stuff, too. So whatever I was going through kind of triggered some stuff in her. So she saw someone separately to deal with issues, traumas, and things she was dealing with, and then we would see someone together. So this was all happening at the same time. I was seeing my own person, she was seeing her own person. And then on separate days, we would see someone as a couple. And I really do feel like we got married young, like, we've been together for over 20 years, and I really do feel like we grew up together, even though we did know each other as children. We met when I was, like, 20 and she was 19 or something, but we really grew up together going through that. And then the next time when I was detoxing in the hospital and I quit drinking that night, it was shortly after that that I kind of wanted to leave the hospital and come home. And she said, like, I can't watch you do this to yourself anymore. I love you too much, and I just can't watch anymore. And she was like, if you are coming home, just come home to get your things, because I can't do this anymore. And I thought, oh, ****, okay, this is affecting people more than I thought. So I ended up staying at the hospital and detoxing and going through the whole thing the second time, it wasn't like she was mad or anything. I mean, I'm sure she was mad, but, yeah, it was just too. She was protecting herself and the kids. She's like, we can't do this anymore. I can't watch you do this anymore. And the kids are getting affected by it, and they're going to have traumas and stuff. Lisa: Do you think that hard line in the sand from her? Do you think that gave you a little nudge? A big nudge, maybe? Yeah. Todd: In addiction treatment, they're like, you're not doing this for other people. You're doing this for yourself. And it was kind of an ultimatum in a way, but also I was ready. I was so sick of it and I was just too scared. I was too scared to do it on my own. I didn't know how to do it. I was terrified. I tried for so many attempts to quit and to heal and it was too scary. So I'd quit. So generally, I don't think ultimatums work unless the other person is ready. Like I was ready. I just needed that nudge. And I tell people all the time too, that I think she had the harder end of the deal then. I've had people say, no, you can't compare pain, you can't compare traumas, and you can't compare, which is true. But as a parent now, it's like if my kids were going through it or my wife was going through the things I was going through, I don't know if I'd be able to stick around or just the sleepless nights, the absolute helplessness that she must have felt. God, I can only imagine how scary. Lisa Well, I'm glad that the two of you were able to work it through. I don't know the statistics, but marriage is hard enough on a good day to have extra stressors on it and so on and so forth. I mean, you clearly worked as a team, so I'm really glad to hear that. For anybody who might be listening, who is maybe at their lowest point struggling with either many of the aspects of mental health or addictions, what would be your advice to them? Todd: Oh man, there's so many things because there's so many levels to it. For one, keep advocating for yourself because the system does suck. And even when you're doing what your doctor's orders and you think things are going well, want more, demand more, get certain dates, whatever, like demand more. Because I guarantee you, I feel bad saying this because everyone I've ever met that works in addictions and mental health and in the health authorities, they're all sweet, lovely people, but the system, it's the system that sucks. And they know that. They even know that. So nothing against anyone that works in this field. It's just you have to demand more because the system will probably fail you at some point if you don't demand more. And I've seen it time and time again, and as far as we've come from my first suicide attempt to now, which has been about twelve years, it was only a year ago or a year and a half ago where that young guy was again told to leave the hospital in an hour later, he's found swim floating in the lake. So it's still happening. It's still not perfect. I know that there'll always be a certain percentage of people that get lost, but it's still very frustrating. And the other thing is, no one's going to do it for you. No pill, no therapist is going to fix you. You have to do the work. And that's the hardest part, is taking that first step to actually start doing the work. It took my wife saying, leave, I can't be around you anymore, to really start doing the work. I had seen a counselor for probably two or three years. Off and on. I wasn't doing anything. Like, I would go to the counselor session, I'd come home and not do anything to ask me to do. I'd be taking the pills and then be going like, why aren't they fixing me? Why haven't you cured me yet? And it's hard. It's simple. What you have to do is simple, but it's hard. It's not easy. It's a very simple plan on paper, but executing it is extremely difficult. It's painful, it's terrible. You think of having a broken leg, like the trauma of the broken leg, you don't even feel it at the time. It's the healing, it's the pain. That journey of healing sucks. And then it gets itchy under the cast and there's all types of things, and then you have to go through rehabilitation and all this stuff, like healing sucks, but if you don't do the work, you're just going to get gangrene and who knows what. It's kind of a weird analogy, I guess, but it works. So, yeah, it takes a lot of courage to heal, and unfortunately, a lot of people either don't get that nudge or they never, or something tragic happens before they're able to get into the mindset of doing the work. Lisa: I think you nailed it. There's no fairy godmother that's going to show up. No one is coming to save your butt. We've got to do the work ourselves. And you're absolutely right. It's simple, but far from easy. So one of the things I like to ask my guests on the podcast is what the word resilient means to you. Todd: I just used this word the other day, and I don't know if I've ever really used this word to describe myself or anyone other than Europe after World War II or something, but I use it the other day in a text to my know, life is still hard, whether it's financial or we were watching loved ones being sick. And like you said, even on a good day, marriages can be hard. So to me, resilience. When I think of the word resilience, I think of my wife and I, and I think of our family. And I said, we've been resilient in the past, and we're going to be resilient still, and we're going to get through this patch of it's not a relationship thing, but there's people around us that are suffering financially and kids are graduating, so we're borderline empty, nesting in a few months. So it's just a very transitional period in our lives right now for not just my wife and I, but for other people in our family. So when I think of resilience, I think of my wife and I, and I've never used that word to describe me or our relationship before. So it's kind of funny you use that word. You asked me about that today. Lisa: Well, when I started the podcast, and I knew I wanted to focus on mental health, but I knew that I also wanted to focus on people like you who really are resilient. And it's just really interesting to me because I do ask every single guest that question. Their answers are all varied, right? Because we're all unique snowflakes, but they're all the same at the same time. And I just find it so interesting. And I think it's your story that makes you resilient, right? I did a talk just a couple of weeks ago, and I said, unfortunately, we can't even talk about resilience until we talk about adversity, right? Because when we're sitting on a beach eating cupcakes all day long and the unicorns are running by, we're not growing, right? We're not becoming resilient. That's almost the opposite of resilience. So unfortunately, it does take adversity to get resilience. And like you are, you are that person. And I am so proud of you, Todd, so proud of you for the work that you've done, for the advocacy work that you continue to do. We didn't even get to your book. You've written a children's book, which I just think is just such a gift. It's such a hard topic to talk about. Yes, sometimes, daddy Christ, tell us just real quickly about your book and who it's for and where people can get a hold of it. Todd: Well, actually, the night I quit drinking and I said, I went to my computer and typed up a suicide note. It was actually the first draft of this book. So the night I quit drinking was the first draft of this book, and it was very different. It was the first draft, but it's basically the perspective of a kid watching his father go through depression, anxiety, and stuff. So the father never actually says anything in the book. It's always a conversation with the kid and the mother and the mother explaining to him that it's like having a stomachache. You're not well, so you have to get help. Sometimes you need rest. Sometimes you need medicine. Sometimes you have to go to the hospital. For whatever reason. I have a hard time tooting my own horn. But it's one of the things I'm very proud of, is that book. I think I've walked that fine line of making it realistic, but also not scary for kids. It's just this is what it's like. And kids do tend to understand physical things, so they can apply that to their emotions and to their mental health. And, yeah, it's gotten really great feedback from parents and from professionals. So, yeah, I'm really proud of it. lisa: Well, I think to me, the most important part is that it opens the door for conversation. Right. I mean, I am no parenting expert, but I do know that our kids don't necessarily learn from one conversation. Right. It's that constant revisiting topics. And a book for a small child is just a brilliant way to ease into it, open the door, make this a normalized part of conversations. Todd: Right, exactly. Lisa: It's very brilliant. And I'm, again, just so grateful that you were able to find the space and the heart space, really, to write that. So if people want to get a hold of your book, is it on Amazon? Todd Yeah, it. Yeah, if you go on Amazon ca. Or it's on some other websites and stuff, too. Yeah. Sometimes daddy cries. I wanted to add real quick that something I didn't expect with the book was opening up that conversation with the mother and the father, because probably 99% of the people that bought the book are females. So it's the mother or it's the mother of a child whose husband is suffering. Because for whatever reason, men. I don't know what it is. I talk about mental health all the time, and it's like 80% or 85% of my audience is female. And so it's like, I think men don't even know it's the problem because they either are drinking it away or getting angry. They don't realize their anger is actually depression or anxiety. Or whatever, so they don't even realize they're suffering anyway. That was a very interesting thing with the book, was finding that. Lisa: Absolutely. And maybe we'll come back and we'll do another podcast another time. But I think you critters, you males are absolute masters at a word I can never say. Compartmentalization, it's a big word and you just are able to put it somewhere. Push it down. I mean, not effectively. You don't get bonus points for doing that. But it's something that I think men do do, and I read something or heard something that we simple, right? We get better at what we do. So the more we push down, the better we get at pushing it down. The more we talk about it, the better we get at talking about it. So you know what? You are doing this world so much good by being a male voice speaking to mental health. And I know that eventually things will change and more men will know, opening up to this whole concept of doing the work. So I cannot thank you enough Todd for being here today, being vulnerable, sharing your story in such a raw and real way. Friends, make sure to check out Todd's podcast called Bunny Hugs and mental health. And make sure to follow him on Instagram at Bunny Hugs podcast. Stay well and be resilient and we'll catch you next time.

Todd: So I'm here with Angela, and in a previous interview we were talking about kids and technology and devices, and how these days often people look at their device when they're with another person. How do you feel about that? If you're eating with somebody, you're at dinner, is it okay to check your phone? 托德：我和安吉拉一起在这里，在之前的一次采访中，我们讨论了孩子、技术和设备，以及现在人们在与另一个人在一起时通常如何看待他们的设备。你对这件事有什么感想？如果你和别人一起吃饭，吃饭的时候，可以看一下你的手机吗？Angela: We have a rule in our house, no phones at the table. Absolutely no phones. 安吉拉：我们家有一条规定，桌上不准打电话。绝对没有电话。 Todd: Very nice. 托德：非常好。 Angela: Because you know, you see people, they meet in restaurants, they sit around a table, the food comes, but everybody's looking into their phone, and engaging with whatever they're doing on their phone, and not talking to the people who have met them. And I see people walking on the subway, the street, head in their phone. It's ... 安吉拉：因为你知道，你看到人们在餐馆里见面，他们围坐在桌子旁，食物来了，但每个人都在看他们的手机，并参与他们在手机上所做的任何事情，而不是与人们交谈 谁见过他们。我看到人们走在地铁、街上，低头玩手机。它是 ...Todd: It is crazy. 托德：这太疯狂了。 Angela: It's really sad. 安吉拉：真的很难过。 Todd: And if you think about it, we used to have manners. Things you couldn't do. For example, no elbows on the table, no hats inside the house. I mean it sounds silly, but I remember those rules as a kid. The one that was really hard was the no elbows on the table. Yeah, so it's interesting that we don't have new rules, like we should reinvent them. You can't have your phone on during the plane when it takes off, so your rule is a good idea. 托德：如果你想一想，我们过去很有礼貌。你做不到的事情。例如，手肘不得放在桌子上，屋内不得戴帽子。我的意思是这听起来很傻，但我小时候记得这些规则。真正困难的是桌子上没有肘部。是的，有趣的是我们没有新的规则，就像我们应该重新发明它们一样。飞机起飞时您不能打开手机，因此您的规则是个好主意。Angela: Yeah, no phones at the table. 安吉拉：是的，桌上没有电话。 Todd: So you're an English teacher, what do you think about phones in the classroom? 托德：那么你是一名英语老师，你对课堂上的手机有何看法？ Angela: If they're on a break, I always call it their text break, because when I'm teaching English out here I find that people have got their phone to their hand, and maybe they're Googling a word or something, so it's not too much of a distraction. But when you stop them for a break, as soon as you say "let's have a break now," they're all after their phones, and they're sitting individually looking at their phones. 安吉拉：如果他们休息，我总是称其为短信休息，因为当我在这里教英语时，我发现人们手里拿着手机，也许他们正在谷歌搜索某个单词或其他东西， 所以这不会造成太多干扰。但当你阻止他们休息时，只要你说“我们现在休息一下吧”，他们就都在追手机，而且他们各自坐着看手机。 Todd: And it's silent, I know what you mean. I'll teach, and it used to be you would say "okay take a break," and it would be really loud, they would start talking with each other. And these days it's just silence, they just go and they do that motion of just flicking with their finger, as they're scrolling down. And I know I just sound like some old guy, "hey, get off my lawn!" And I have the same problem, I want to check my phone all the time, but I have to admit it's strange I think. 托德：而且很安静，我知道你的意思。我会教，过去你会说“好吧，休息一下”，声音会很大，他们会开始互相交谈。如今，一切都很安静，他们只是走过去，在向下滚动时用手指轻弹一下。我知道我听起来就像个老家伙，“嘿，离开我的草坪！” 我也有同样的问题，我想一直检查我的手机，但我不得不承认我认为这很奇怪。 Angela: And now you needn't even check your phone, you just look at your Apple watch or your watch on your wrist, it's going to tell you if your phone needs your attention. 安吉拉：现在你甚至不需要检查你的手机，你只需看看你的 Apple Watch 或手腕上的手表，它就会告诉你你的手机是否需要你的关注。 Todd: But it used to be where I would say things like, you know as a teacher you're teaching, you can see if the student's looking down at their phone, and I would say "hey, don't check your phone." But now these days kids actually call me on it, they're like, "Oh, I'm looking up a word," or "Oh, I'm checking something," and they literally are checking something. And the kids are good at using their phone as a learning tool - 托德：但过去我会说这样的话，你知道，作为一名老师，你正在教学，你可以看到学生是否低头看手机，我会说“嘿，不要检查你的手机。” 但现在，孩子们实际上打电话给我，他们会说，“哦，我正在查找一个单词”，或者“哦，我正在检查一些东西”，他们实际上是在检查一些东西。孩子们很擅长使用手机作为学习工具 - Angela: Yes, I think that's fine. 安吉拉：是的，我认为那还行。Todd: So it is, it's a gray area these days. Yeah. So when you're with somebody you never pop out your phone? 托德：确实如此，现在这是一个灰色地带。是的。那么当你和某人在一起时你从不拿出手机吗？ Angela: I would admit that I will be guilty of checking my phone in my bag, but I would never get it out and go on Facebook or Instagram and start Instagramming, I would just look at it and put it away. 安吉拉：我承认我会因为检查包里的手机而感到内疚，但我永远不会把它拿出来上 Facebook 或 Instagram 并开始 Instagram，我只会看看它然后把它收起来。Todd: Yeah. There's other things I've done, I mean could be because I'm getting older, but for example I try not to listen to my iPod so much anymore, or my phone. Radio, music, whatever. I actually just try to listen. I notice that when I am always listening to everything I kind of tune the world out, and I might miss things. 托德：是的。我还做过其他事情，我的意思是可能是因为我变老了，但例如我尽量不再听我的 iPod 或手机。广播、音乐等等。我其实只是试着听。我注意到，当我总是听所有的东西时，我就会把世界排除在外，而且我可能会错过一些东西。Angela: You will miss things. You see people, I've been quite tempted some days to put my earphones in and walk to the BTS, but actually I think, no, you'd miss the traffic noise, you miss the tuk tuks, you miss a dimension of the world that's happening around you. And then you get on the BTS and everybody in the carriage is head down, same position, on their phones. 安吉拉：你会想念一些事情的。你看，有些天我很想戴上耳机步行去 BTS，但实际上我认为，不，你会错过交通噪音，你会错过嘟嘟车，你会错过地铁的某个维度。你周围发生的世界。然后你上了 BTS，车厢里的每个人都低着头，保持着同样的姿势，拿着手机。 Todd: Yeah. And actually I don't do it just for that reason, because I noticed that I'm missing out. It's so tempting, but I might see something. 托德：是的。事实上，我这样做不仅仅是因为这个原因，因为我注意到我错过了。这太诱人了，但我可能会看到一些东西。

Take a moment to catch your breath before the Stanley Cup Final, with referee Kelly Sutherland mic'd up, the referees and linesmen working the Cup Final, the first female on-ice official enters the IIHF Hall of Fame, ECHL refs have an easy night, and the CHL looks at three major rule changes for the 2023-24 season -- all around penalties and power plays! More on these topics, including video clips and rule breakdowns, at scoutingtherefs.com Visit www.scoutingtherefs.com and follow @scoutingtherefs and @toddlewissports on Twitter and Instagram. Email us your questions - heyref@scoutingtherefs.com Call the RefLine at 585-484-REFS!   Episode Transcript #166 Scouting the Refs is an unscripted audio podcast, designed to be heard. It's a whole lot more interesting to listen to the audio, but we're happy to provide a transcription below. This transcript has been generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain textual or typographical errors.  Full transcript: https://scoutingtherefs.com/2023/06/40183/scouting-the-refs-podcast-166-making-the-cut-for-the-cup-final/   Todd: So I know we're all excited about the Stanley Cup final beginning and finally getting underway, Florida Panthers and the Vegas Golden Knights, but you know Josh? I'm thinking I want to start planning now. What we're going to be doing in the next few weeks when there's no games to watch, because no matter how much I prepare mentally at this point in time in the season, I always suffer from withdrawals after the Cup final is completed and the trophy is handed out. Josh: It's such a challenge, right? We go from the first round where you've got multiple games every night and just there's something going on everywhere at every hour. And the NHL even figured out scheduling this year, so with the games spread out, we could watch a lot of the action. And then it dwindles down a little bit more and now we've had this break of days without hockey, at least at the NHL level, and now the most we'll have is a game every other night. It's starting to feel real, Todd. It's starting to slip away a little bit. The hockey season is leaving us. Todd: It is and that's the hard part. I know the theory is that you start big and that it seems as though like you're kind of being weaned off the drug but it doesn't really work that way. You still suffer from the the withdrawals when it's gone.  Josh: And, you know, the warm temps outside don't exactly help you. The weather's warm. You want to be outdoors doing things, especially with these games on the weekend. You're out and about it's it's hot outside. You've got shorts and a t-shirt on, and then you come back in to watch some ice hockey. Yeah, I I love the length of the season. I love that we have all these games, but when you start to get into June, especially the middle of June, it it feels like maybe we've gone too far. Todd: You know, we'll, we'll get through it. We always do. And there will be the anticipation before long of the new season. This is the Scouting the Refs Podcast. Please make sure you follow us on the social channels. Josh, of course can be found @scoutingtherefs on Twitter and Instagram, you'll get me at @toddlewissports on Twitter and Instagram as well. Coming up on this week's episode: Kelly Sutherland mic'd up, who made the cut, a Hall of Fame career, and new rules the NHL should be considering. I am very excited to discuss this topic, Josh. Josh: New rules are always interesting, sometimes they have unintended consequences, so you never know how it will play out, but it will be interesting to see. Todd: Okay, so let's get to some of the other stuff before we talk about the potential for for new rules. Four-star review for the video of the Western Conference Series game One. You hear from players, you hear from coaches, but most importantly you hear referee Kelly Sutherland at work out on the ice. We've seen these  videos pop up semi regularly. They provide great insight into what is happening on the ice during the games, and conveniently enough, the bad words are taken out for you. That's why it takes a couple of days to get them out. So Kelly Sutherland, as you've perhaps seen before in some of these videos, is one of the most vocal referees out on the ice. He's explaining to players what he sees after a play. He's telling goaltenders that he's watching for the goalie interference. He's explaining to coaches what is happening out on this. It's it's as if he is a coach out on the ice at times. I think it's a great job that he does. Josh: Absolutely. It's one of the reasons that when they've had the player polls in the past that Sutherland scores so highly as one of the league's top officials. It's not only about positioning and judgment and comportment and all of the things that go in from an officiating standpoint. But from the players point of view, here's a guy who's actually helping you understand where the line is, and he's giving you advance notice before he's calling the penalty. And as a player, that's what you wanna have. You want to know where you stand and and when you're getting too far over the line. And that's what Sutherland does. I think one of his greatest strengths is the communication side of thing of warning guys and when they're getting too close and putting pressure in the crease. Or when it's a potential interference call and things he's seeing out there, so he tries to set that up front and then stick with that standard the whole game. And it's great when you have the mic'd up videos, because then we get to hear some of that dynamic and you see what goes into it before a penalty's actually called. Because he might have been chatting about it for the whole first period, halfway through the second period and a guy keeps at it and now all of a sudden he's blowing the whistle because he's warned him and he's had that conversation and it's one of his strengths. And it's really interesting to hear the types of things that go on. But you're right, Todd, it's almost like he's the second coach out there advising these guys. So he's not just enforcing the rules, but he's he's warning them he's giving them a heads up. He's reminding them of where the line is and when they've gone to far, that's when he has to send them off to the box. Todd: I I love it too. It's not just after the play that he's explaining calls, but as you mentioned, when two players are tied up, he's telling one like, okay, let him go. You gotta let him go now otherwise. You get the interference call and it's just like I don't want to penalize you, but I'm going to have to pretty soon. Josh: Yeah. And it's great in this video, you can hear a nice exchange he has with Keegan Kolesar about a hit that happened and there was a cross checking why he didn't call it and Kolesar's great, super polite there. Just thanking him for it. ‘I appreciate it' is what he says afterwards. So you might not always agree with it, but just giving that explanation and. Letting the guy understand why the call was or wasn't made in a certain situation is immensely helpful. But I don't know if you noticed, Todd, in the clip one of the coaches is on there saying, ‘Nice chat, Kelly.' We don't actually get the content of that conversation. So I don't know if it was something they wanted to keep quiet, or if there were just too many four letter words to include it. Todd: Yeah, that that sometimes the editing can be a little bit tricky on those. Again, I think it provides great insight and good job, I believe for putting those out even if it's 3-4 days after because of all the all the approval that has to go through. So with this video and hearing Kelly Sutherland at work, it is not surprising that he was one of the referees named to work in the Stanley Cup. Final he'll be joined by Steve Kozari, Wes McCauley – no surprise there, Dan O'Rourke, and Chris Rooney. The linesmen are Steve Barton, Scott Cherrey, Brad Kovachik, Kiel Murchison, and Jonny Murray. Congratulations to all for reaching the final. There's no real surprises with any of these names, is there? Josh: No, everybody's been here before, so I can't say that any of them come as a total shock. You've got tons of veteran experience there, McCauley, Sutherland both working their 10th Stanley Cup Final, Rooney with six. Even Johnny Murray, with six. So everybody's been here plenty of times. They all know what it's like, what the pressure entails, what the big games mean. It was not a shock.   I was hoping that some of the younger guys might have made it. We saw Jean Hebert make the Cup Final last year, thought he might have a shot at returning this year, but he and Trevor Hanson, looking to make his Cup Final debut, both left off of the rosters. I thought either one of them could have made it, but who do you cut in their place? This is such a a challenge here. Figuring it out. So you think of – from an NHL standpoint – everything that goes into it and it's your full season, it's your mid season grade, it's your season end evaluation and then it's what you've done each round in the playoffs. So all of that leading up to it and I I think you know, we see and expect who's going to make it. And I I'd say these are like you said, Todd, no surprises here on these crews. Todd: Now, as you explained nicely in a piece on the scoutingtherefs.com website, the final works a little bit differently in that there's not specifically a backup referee at each event and the whole procedure of pairing guys together works a little bit differently as well. Josh: It's interesting to see because all season long we get this rotation of refs. Everybody works the next game with a different partner, typically because of travel, maybe they'll have a back-to-back together, but you're typically working each game with an entirely different crew. Through the first few rounds of the playoffs, that changes a bit because we do see ref pairings and linesman pairings, and often we see that quartet move together through some games. We definitely saw in the conference final where Kelly Sutherland's crew, the same four of them, worked together each game. Once you get to the Stanley Cup Final, they throw everybody back in the hat and basically draw numbers again. So you've got an odd number of referees, which means we're no longer having that pairing; we're having a rotation where the first two guys will work game one, the second two guys will work game two and then they'll start to mix it up after that because of the odd number. So your partner being a standard guy and and maybe at some of them that you've worked together the entire postseason up until now, now you're gonna get a new partner every night. So back to how the regular season works with the rotation. Obviously you're hoping these are your top officials. These are the best of the best. These guys have been consistent throughout the postseason, so it shouldn't matter, but it definitely shakes things up a little bit, so it'll be interesting to see how those tendencies translate when we see a guy where maybe two guys have worked together the entire postseason and now they get to work with different partners in the Stanley Cup Final. Todd: One other note on the referees who are and are not working the Cup Final, and you and I were exchanging messages during this game. But for those that say there is no accountability for officials, yes, there is, because there was one particular game with the Florida Panthers and Carolina Hurricanes, where not one, but two goals were overturned on offside challenges and those two linesmen are not working in the Stanley Cup Final. Now, they were so close. It was microscopic that they were offside plays, but this is the price that they're paying. Josh: Yeah,  and we don't know. For sure if that happened to be the reason or the straw that broke the camel's back, or if there are other contributing factors here in making that decision. But, certainly, it's one of those things that you look at from an officiating management standpoint when you have guys that are frequently involved in coaches challenge or you have referees that maybe are calling major penalties, that they're downgrading after review, maybe it makes you question their judgment a little bit. I'm not saying it's right or wrong and and like you said, these are really close plays, so I'm not even going to point fingers at the officials or or find fault in how it worked out, but certainly the optics of having a call that had to be overturned on such a public stage and in such a critical juncture in a key moment for a goal to be scored or not, you can't help but think that that did put the spotlight on them a little bit more and may have influenced Stephen Walkom's decision. Todd: A couple of non-NHL notes that we should mention as well. Congratulations to Sandra Dombrowski, who now goes by Sandra Frye. She has become the first female on ice official inducted into the IIHF Hall of Fame. Congratulations Sandra on a great international hockey career.  Josh: Yeah. Very nice to see that honor there. The class of 2023 was inducted. We have lots of players from all over the place and another official making it in. And there's very few in the IIHF Hall of Fame. Only eight now, with Dombrowski's edition and mostly European, we don't have an American or even a Canadian official that are yet in the IIHF Hall of Fame, so there's there's still boundaries to hit there, but nice to see Dombrowski get in. She broke plenty of boundaries coming in and making her way up. Even as a hockey player, when she was younger, she couldn't find a team to play with as a woman, so she founded her own and it went from there and she was involved in a lot of firsts. The first unofficial women's game at the World Championship and then the first woman referee of a Women's World gold medal game. So nice to see her recognized for all the contributions to hockey, both as a player as an official and then coming off the ice, working as a supervisor and then part of the IIHF officiating committee. So she's given a lot to hockey and nice to see them reciprocate and and give the honor of putting her into the IIHF Hall of Fame. Todd: So the first North American referee that could go in potentially maybe a few years down the road, you know if that was Wes McCauley, I got to think that the acceptance speech is going to be out of this world because they they let them do that at the presentation, don't they? Josh: They do and they did, and Dombrowski gave a great speech. It was wonderful to hear from her and you could tell how much this meant to her; how much hockey means to her. So it was a great honor, but I just picture Wes being most comfortable with just want to give that speech with the mic on, at center ice in full uniform. Todd: Five for fighting! Josh: We've got an induction! Todd: Perfect. Love it. Okay, also non-NHL-related. Congratulations to the Florida Everblades for their win over the Newfoundland Growlers. They win the Eastern Conference final in the ECHL. They'll move on to play Idaho in the final. That series also opens up on Saturday, June the 3rd. Congrats to the Blades who are going for back-to-back titles. It is the second time these two teams have met. In 2004, it was the Idaho Steelheads that prevailed . It was an interesting game summary in this one. It was a double overtime game as I mentioned, but barely a whistle blown for a penalty. Josh: Yeah, quiet one for the officials, which is —  It's funny, we joked last week on the podcast about how things tighten up and saying that when you get into game six or game seven, we see fewer and fewer penalties and things really tighten up and I think it's on both sides, right? I think it's on the officials. Maybe I don't wanna say pocketing the whistles, cause that becomes a a negative, but maybe calling that standard tightly and making sure everybody knows where it is. But we also see it on the players trying to be on their best behavior because they don't want to be the person sitting in the box that's responsible for a power play goal against, especially when goals are so critical. But this one, Todd, referee Sam Heideman and Alex Normandin called a clean game effectively because they didn't hand out any power plays. They had some penalties. We had a holding minor that was accompanied by a diving penalty, so that washes out; we have no man advantage there. Only one other penalty in the game. And you can thank the linesman for it because it was a bench minor for too many men on the ice. Todd: Now those of us that are familiar with the ECHL and have, you know, seen a few games, is this a first? Josh: It's a relatively well behaved game for these guys. Nice to see how well-mannered both clubs were. I got to watch part of the game didn't see the whole thing, but you know it's one of those things where you don't want to be the guy who messes it up. You're trying to keep it clean. You don't wanna get whistled for anything. You're kind of playing a little more careful, a little, a little safe there, especially in a game that spent a lot of the time tied. I mean from the second period on, the whole third period, the whole first over time, you've got a tie game there. So you definitely don't want to be the guy who puts your team shorthanded. Todd: I'll just end by saying go Blades. That's my hometown team. Okay, now we talked about some potential rule changes that are going to take place. They are taking place in the Champions League in Europe and I think that there's some some of these –  in fact, I like all of them – that could and should be considered by the National Hockey League. Okay, so let's go through them one at a time. First, being minor penalties dealt with the same as a major penalty in that a team that has caused a minor penalty will remain shorthanded, even if the opposing team scores a goal, so you're serving the full two. Josh: Yeah, not a radical change here. This is one of those ‘everything old is new again' kind of moments because this is how it was in the National Hockey League up until 1956. You sat for the whole 2 minutes; you served your time. If they scored once, twice, three times, however many they score in that 2 minutes, you're staying in the box. So I think the Champions League is looking to boost goal scoring here and they also say that they want to make sure punishments are consistent. So yeah, you did the crime you will do the time, no matter how many goals get scored during your sentence. Todd: I don't think that's an unreasonable thing. I know that we had an exceptional power play this year with the Edmonton Oilers, but it still was, what? Just over 30%. So it's unlikely that you're going to score two or three or four goals, but maybe that helps as a deterrent. Josh:  It could because those penalties become a bit more valuable. And right now you're looking at it as you're either short handed for two minutes or you've given up a goal and then you're back to even strength. Now you're definitely going to be shorthanded for the whole 2 minutes, and you aren't capped at just giving up one shorthanded goal, so it does put a little premium on those penalties, which hopefully doesn't put more pressure on the refs when it comes to not wanting to decide the game or factor into the game. You need to call it the same way, it's just that the each penalty call becomes a bit more impactful, potentially. Todd: Okay, also with a delayed penalty, a minor penalty will be served even if a goal is scored while a delayed penalty is pending. Josh: Yep, and I'm good with this one. This is one of those interesting situations where many of the leagues wipe out the goals on delayed penalties. NCAA College Hockey in the US actually has this rule currently where a goal scored on the delayed penalty does not wash out the penalty. If you score on the delayed call, you still get a power play afterwards and the player still serves his time, which now under this other rule will also be a full 2 minute power play coming out of that. Todd: Right. Josh: It's it's pretty interesting at the NHL level and others that penalty just disappears. It never happened. The the guy doesn't have two minutes associated with any infraction. He doesn't serve any time in the box; the entire penalty isn't even recorded.  At the USA Hockey level, it is recorded but not served. So I think it's interesting. I mean, I've rallied before in the past to say they should consider at least booking the guy for the two minutes and making him sit in the box even if you don't give the team a man advantage, but I think this is the most honest way to do it. The delayed penalty isn't a power play. It's an opportunity where the other team can't touch the puck, so it it definitely comes to a benefit to the attacking team. They get to pull the goaltender, they get to maintain possession. So there there's definitely a benefit there, but I've always been amazed that it offsets the power play there. And again I think this is just try to keep balance and keep scoring down, but now you're going to see more scoring because not only will you score on the delayed penalty… or if you do, you'll still get a 2 minute power play. Todd: I like it. I think it's a a good idea and the other one that's being implemented by the Champions League is that a short handed goal erases a current minor penalty. If the team shorthanded scores, then their minor penalty will come to an end. I'm okay with this. I guess it's a bit of a ‘get out of jail' free card. Well, even more of a bonus than that, but I think it will encourage teams to maybe try stuff on the penalty kill. Josh: This is the most radical of them, right? Because everything up until now has been ‘Delayed penalty? You're still going to serve the time', ‘Other team scores? You're still gonna serve the time.' Well, your own team scores. Now you get out of jail free — so you worded it properly, Todd, I think that's exactly what it is. And this one's not looking at the change from a punishment standpoint. This is purely around goal scoring because you're you're hoping that you can get that team to stretch things out a little bit and think offensively, which could open scoring the other way and make those short handed teams a little less defensively conscious because now they want to score. They want to get that time back, especially if it's late in the game, you're trailing, you don't wanna wait out the whole 2 minutes. If you can get this goal, you can get back to even strength. So I think it's an interesting move. I think it's definitely the most radical of the ones that are coming in here and the one I'm curious to see what types of changes that makes to how teams approach being shorthanded and and what the power plays look like. And remember with those other changes, you will be shorthanded the entire time, so you've got that two minutes you can be scored on multiple times unless you do this to end your short handed situation by scoring a shorthanded goal.  The combination of these three makes it really interesting. I feel like it's gonna take some time for teams and coaches to adapt to what the strategy is here and how best to take advantage of this and and how to work it properly. So I'm glad the Champions Hockey League is putting these in place, since these are ones that we've talked about at the North American hockey level and it's the right place to test it. It's this the specialty league. They have limited scope, limited teams, 24 teams this year coming in from all over Europe. So because of the way they're set up, I think it's a great proving ground to see how are these going to work when we first put them in place and then by the end of the season, is it still doing what we thought it would? Or have we seen things change dramatically?  And you know what they then they take a break, they can change it for next year, but at least this is the right place where you can actually try that and see how it plays out before you implement it at a larger scale or at the AHL, ECHL, NHL level. Todd: I have one more that's been suggested, I think by a few people, but I think would be an interesting to be part of this experiment as well. If the team that has is getting the penalty has a choice between being on the man advantage for two minutes or taking a penalty shot. Josh: That's an interesting one. You know, we've, we've seen that come up before in discussions on especially late in game situations. Should it be a power play? Should it be a penalty shot? Todd: Right. Josh:  In the past you look at penalty shot, success rate versus power play success rate and it's not that far off. I mean we've we've seen maybe the penalty shots are a little bit higher, but statistically speaking it's not a huge difference where you see a big swing there, I think it'd be interesting to give teams that option, especially when you've got the full 2 minutes because now. Do you want 2 minutes on the power play where you can score multiple times, or do you want one shot at a breakaway? In this situation, you know if you're trailing in the game, maybe that 2 minutes is valuable and you you'd rather have the penalty shot. Or maybe the opposite is true and you just wanna kill time off the clock and you'd rather have the two-minute power play. I think that'd be an interesting strategy driver there, too, Todd, on how do you approach it because now you've got a power play that could result in multiple goals, or you get to take the penalty shot, which is only one – uses no time on the clock – but do you think your team has a better chance on the penalty shot than on the power play? Interesting dynamic there. Another one where I think it takes time. You you'd have to put that in and coaches would figure out how best to make it work for their team. You know, if you're the Edmonton Oilers this past season, you're taking the power play every time. Some teams with limited success or with a really strong breakaway scoring player there, you might want to take the penalty shot and I think that it just changes things up from a strategy standpoint. Todd: Now you mentioned the downfall.  Coaches ruin everything.   Thanks for listening… or reading. Please like, share, and subscribe to the Scouting the Refs Podcast wherever you get your podcasts:  

PromEvil part 4, "Home Before Curfew" See who lives, who dies, and who finds romance at the Polk High prom, in this, the final installment...   A lot of people put their heart and soul into producing this memorable event: STUDENTS Hal - Mathias Rebne-Morgan Lyn - Molly Tollefson Todd - Eli Nilsson Gee - Melissa Bartell Barb - Beverly Poole Andy - Mike Campbell Bud - Jasper Loovis Tina - Chandra Wade Missy - Jade Thomson Jake - Michael Faigenblum other students - Sky Iolta, Shelbi MacIntyre, Henry Mark FACULTY Principal Peabody - Reynaud LeBoeuf Mr. Ervin Carpel, Woodshop - Gene Thorkildsen Ms. Angela Wellesly, Crafts - Gwendolyn Jensen-Woodard Mrs. Snodgrass, Lunchroom - Robyn Keyes P.A. Announcements - Julie Hoverson Rent-a-cop Bob - The Caretaker OTHERS Cop 1 - Glen Hallstrom Cop 2 - Joel Harvey 911 Voice - Julie Hoverson STAFF Writer - Julie Hoverson Doll Wranglers - Julie Hoverson, Kimberly Poole (Warp'd Space) Sound and Mastering - Julie Hoverson Stock sound effects - Soundsnap.com; sonomic.com Music - Prom - Sinkhole Music - background - Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) ________________________________________________________________   Prom Evil PART 4   1. Craft shop SOUND          [under] POUNDING INSIDE THE KILN LYN            Hal? HAL            It's just a scratch.  I really thought the heavy foam of the Polky would-- LYN            Well, it didn't!  I need something-- SOUND          TEARING FABRIC GEE            It's not sterile, but this muslin's better than nothing.  You'll have to wrap it-- SOUND          [DISTANT] GUN SHOT ANDY           Holy shit! BARB           [gaspy scream] ANDY           Ow.  Okay, okay - lighten up there!  you're Choking me, babe!  Let go!  BARB           I'm being vulnerable, dammit!  Appreciate it! HAL            Whatever else that shot means, there's someone else in the school.  So the door must be open again. ANDY           I'll check the hall. SOUND          FEET AND HAND TRUCK, DOOR LYN            This really needs proper attention. HAL            When we get out.  BARB           [interrupting] WHEN we get out?  Don't you mean IF we get out? MUSIC   2. punchbowl AMB            GYM PEABODY        Miss Harrison, have you seen Bob? ANGELA         Not since he went to check out the school.  He was going to try and find Marge. PEABODY        The school?  It's locked. ANGELA         Well, that's apparently debatable. MUSIC   3. hallway SOUND          STRIKER CLICKS, TORCH LIGHTS SOUND          WALKING, WITH HAND TRUCK ANDY           Stay behind me, babe. BARB           Well, duh. LYN            Tsk. SOUND          GUN SHOT [Everyone reacts at roughly the same time.] ANDY           Shit! HAL            Holy crap! LYN            Oh. My. God. TODD           [gasped] Laurel? SOUND          FIVE MORE SHOTS BARB           Fuck this! GEE            Wow! SOUND          FEET POUNDING, HAND TRUCK ROLLING FAST BARB           Andy!  God! HAL            Don't!  Shit.  Stay together. SOUND          HAL LIMPING, RUNNING AFTER ANDY LYN            Hal! MUSIC   4. outside gym AMB            OUTSIDE, RAIN SOUND          MUSIC STILL AUDIBLE FROM DANCE SOUND          CLICK TO TALK NOISE PEABODY        Bob?  Where in hell are you, you moron? MUSIC   5. hallway SOUND          [close] STABBING NOISE BOB            [DEATH RATTLE] PEABODY        [on talkie] Bob?  I don't care if you're-- SOUND          BUTTON IS PUSHED, MACHINE CUTS OUT LEDERHOSEN GUY  [chuckles] SOUND          RUNNING FEET AND HAND TRUCK APPROACH ANDY           [off, barely winded] Holy shit!  HAL            [off, gasping]  Rent-a-cop Bob! LEDERHOSEN GUY  [eager noise] SOUND          DOLL FEET RUN AT THEM ANDY           Shiiiiiit! SOUND          TURNS UP THE FLAME HAL            What're you doing?  Get back here! ANDY           No.  This little shit's going down! SOUND          ROAR OF FIRE HAL            Got him! ANDY           Die, fucker! SOUND          BURNING CRACKLING WOOD LEDERHOSEN GUY  [chuckling] SOUND          WOODEN FEET RUN, DRAGGING KNIFE HAL            It's not stopping!!!  Come on! SOUND          LIMPING RUNNING FEET ANDY           [frozen] What the fuck, man!  What the fuck? SOUND          FLAMING WOOD HITS THE METAL CYLINDER ANDY           Shit!  Get off the tank you little-- SOUND          METAL ON METAL LEDERHOSEN GUY  [chuckles, but losing to the flame a little] HAL            [distant] Andy! Just drop it! SOUND          METAL CLANG, GAS HISS, EXPLOSION ANDY           [Screams] HAL            [distant] Noooooooo! MUSIC   6. gym AMB            GYM SOUND          FIRE ALARM GOES OFF. SOUND          MUSIC TAPERS OUT CROWD          [uncertain what to do] PEABODY        [annoyed] Give me strength. SOUND          QUICK FOOTSTEPS, STATIC SQUAWK PEABODY        [on P.A.] Do not panic.  Until you are informed otherwise, assume this is a false alarm.  I'll personally go and check into this.  Again, until I return and inform you that this is an actual emergency, please assume it is some idiot playing a dangerous, unfunny joke. SOUND          APPLAUSE MUSIC   7. hallway SOUND          SPRINKLERS, ALARMS SOUND          DISTANT SIZZLING BARB           [hysterical] I never thought I'd be glad to hear a fire alarm!  The firemen'll save us! LYN            The water's already putting it out. TODD           Which one was that?  Did you see? HAL            Which what?  TODD           [fierce] which doll, dammit? HAL            I just saw a pointy hat. TODD           Oh.  OK.  Good. BARB           [coming off tears] What now, Sherlock?  You blew up my boyfriend-- LYN            Hal's not responsible for that! BARB           Oh, really?  GEE            If this spell I found requires a human sacrifice, I know who I nominate. TODD           Spell? GEE            Does no one ever listen to me?  I think I can freeze up one of those things, by reciting these words-- SOUND          PIECE OF PAPER GEE            But I think someone will have to hold it down while I do.  So you guys need to pull it together. HAL            [quietly serious] That's three. LYN            What? HAL            The one in the oven, the one in the kiln, and that one.  Three down.  Only two left. LYN            [quietly] We could get his keys.  Bob's.  But we'll have to go around.  HAL            [agreeing humph]  No more fire.  SOUND          SMALL TORCH DROPPED IN METAL GARBAGE CAN MUSIC   8. OUTSIDE AMB            OUTSIDE SOUND          RAPID FEET ON GRAVEL PEABODY        Oh, please!  I've TOLD YOU it was just a prank!  SOUND          KEYS, UNLOCK, DOOR OPENS PEABODY        As I've complied with your guidelines for canceling a false alarm...if anyone shows up, don't even try charging the school for it! SOUND          DOOR SLAMS SHUT MUSIC   9. HALLWAY AMB            HALLWAY, SPRINKLERS, ALARM SOUND          ALARM CUTS OUT BARB           [freaking] What?  But it's - they have to-- What about the firemen?  [sobs] SOUND          SPRINKLERS CUT OUT, DRIPPING LYN            Let's go this way - Not so wet. GEE            It's a different sector.  They only go off one at a time. BARB           This is, like, the worst damn prom ever! MUSIC   10.         OFFICE SOUND          SWITCHES.  FUSE BOX CLOSES, FOOTSTEPS PEABODY        Huh!  Eat me, you degenerates.  You're not pulling any more-- [cuts himself off]  What? SOUND          QUIET CLICKING NOISE PEABODY        [calling, annoyed] All right, who's out there?  Is this some kind of joke? SOUND          THREE QUICK STEPS PEABODY        [ugh!  As he kicks] SOUND          HITS WOOD, DOLL FLIES ACROSS THE HALL, HITS WALL MAJORETTE      FURIOUS CLICKING PEABODY        You cretinous troglodytes!  Cowards!  Why don't you show your ugly little Morlock faces? SOUND          WOOD NOISES - TAPS AND CREAKS - AS MAJORETTE STANDS PEABODY        What the...? SOUND          WOODEN FOOTSTEPS PEABODY        Oh my god... SOUND          DOLL RUNS AT HIM PEABODY        Yahh! SOUND          DOOR SLAMS SOUND          CLICKING PEABODY        [effort] GET...OUT OF... DOOR SOUND          TRYING TO SLAM DOOR ON DOLL MUSIC   11.         HALLWAY AMB            HALLWAY GEE            It's not exactly the quickest way to get back to Bob's keys- BARB           Maybe we should make you watch while we barbecue your boyfriend...oops, you don't have one. GEE            Survival overrules sentiment.  Besides - LYN            Cut it out.  We agreed it was probably still too dangerous, anyway.  We don't know how much damage the explosion did. HAL            Shh! SOUND          CREEPING AHEAD HAL            Ok.  Nothing moving.  All clear-- [cuts himself off] Hold on. SOUND          HIS FEET GO OFF SLOWLY LYN            What?  Hal? HAL            [off]  Bud!  Oh, Crap!! LYN            Come on. SOUND          ALL MOVE FORWARD LYN            Oh, heck.  Hal, I'm so sorry. HAL            [ignoring her] [muttering] Bud?  Bud, man?  LYN            I don't think he's-- HAL            Back off! LYN            [gasps, wobbly]  I-I'm  sorry.  But... [firming up, fiercely] But I don't want to die too, and we need you. HAL            I - I don't... [trails off] TODD           It wasn't Laurel.  She wouldn't do that. SOUND          HAL STANDS SUDDENLY, GRABS TODD HAL            [furious] It doesn't matter which one did it!  They're all dangerous! TODD           Ungh! HAL            See?  Look at that!  That was my best friend. TODD           You can't just burn her! GEE            We can try the incantation...it's supposed to make them harmless. SOUND          DISTANT SCREAMS [Peabody] and SLAMMING NOISES HAL            Maybe you'll get your chance. MUSIC   12.         OFFICE SOUND          THUMP OF WOOD MAJORETTE      CLICKING SOUND          WOOD CREAK PEABODY        How can you be getting through?  How can you be moving?  MAJORETTE      CLICK AS IT THRUSTS SOUND          SQUISH OF A STAB PEABODY        [screams in pain]  My arm! SOUND          CREAK OF WOOD AGAIN MUSIC   13.         Hallway outside office HAL            [coming on] Right up ahead.  One of them is stuck in a door.  Whoever's screaming must be inside. GEE            This is the faculty area.  BARB           What, did you draw the maps for the school, too?  LYN            What did you see, Hal? HAL            Start the chant, Gee.  It's time to see if that stuff works.  Let's get this sucker... GEE            I think the doll has to hear the chant.  I may have to start over if it gets far enough away. LYN            It won't. GEE            [under throughout] [chant] SOUND          FEET MOVE SOUND          DOOR NOISES, DOLL NOISES, GET CLOSER HAL            [noise of effort as he grabs the doll] MAJORETTE      FURIOUS CLICKING, SOMEWHAT MUFFLED HAL            Open the door...I've got it! MR. PEABODY     [muffled]  Open the door?  Are you an idiot - Wait - Is that you, Farnesby?  You are in big trouble-- HAL            Just open the goddam door, Peabody!  We're rescuing you! SOUND          DOOR OPENS A BIT HAL            Ungh! [effort]  Wah! [doll pulls harder] SOUND          CREAK, FINALLY SNAP AS DOLL LETS GO, IS FLUNG ACROSS THE HALL - WOOD IMPACT SOUND          DOOR SLAMS HARD, LOCKS HAL            Mr. Peabody! LYN            Hal!  It's getting up! GEE            [continues the chant.] LYN            Barb!  Be ready with the broom! BARB           Goddam right! HAL            Just keep it in the hall here - don't let it get away! TODD           [muttered in relief]  The majorette.  Laurel's still all right. LYN            Knock it over here! SOUND          IMPACT ON WOOD, RATTLE AS DOLL SKIDS ACROSS THE FLOOR HAL            I've got it!  [effort noise as he kicks it] SOUND          KICKING WOOD HAL            Ow!  Little bitch is hard! LYN            It's heading for Gee!  The chant must be doing something!  Todd, you're--- Todd?  That little rat!  Barb!  Get it! BARB           [screaming in fury, and beating at it with the broom] SOUND          BROOM HITTING WOOD BARB           Shit! HAL            It's climbing!  Drop the broom! LYN            Barb! BARB           Ahhh! [throwing] SOUND          BROOM GOES FLYING  LYN            Gee!  Get out of-- SOUND          WOOD CLATTERS SOUND          DOLL SCAMPERS GEE            [speeds up, but keeps chanting] MAJORETTE      CLICKING EXCITEMENT SOUND          THRUST, BLOOD GEE            [gasps, then finishes chant] SOUND          DOLL TURNS SOLID LYN            Omigod!  It went.. right through her! SOUND          BANGING ON DOOR HAL            PEABODY!!  Call an ambulance!  DAMN YOU! GEE            [whimpering, breathing hard] LYN            We can't just leave her! HAL            There's one more out there.  We can't DO anything... GEE            [whispered]  Did it work? LYN            The doll froze!  But it's baton thing is... is-- GEE            [strained whisper] Don't pull it out. LYN            What? GEE            [whimper of pain]  LYN            I won't let you die! GEE            Not much you can do to stop it.  Go!  [long sigh] BARB           Is she dead yet?  Can we go? LYN            You! SOUND          PUNCH IN THE FACE BARB           Ow!!!  LYN            And where's that little toad? HAL            Lyn?  We could get out now. LYN            There's only one more.  And I have this-- SOUND          CRACKLE OF PAPER LYN            She handed it to me right before-- [sob] HAL            You're the one who said we should get help.  That we can't handle this on our own. LYN            [with mounting hysteria] I was wrong.  There's no one we can go to for help!  How could we even ask?  "No, really, officer, there are killer dolls in our high school.  We have this magic book with a spell to de‑animate them, but we need someone to help us hold them down while we chant."  There's just no one else! MUSIC   14.         Hallway away from office AMB            HALLWAY SOUND          RAPID WALKING TODD           [loud whisper]  Laurel!  Laurel, they're going to try and get you!  You should come with me!  Laurel??? MUSIC   15.         Hallway leaving office SOUND          WALKING HAL            You're upset.  Not thinking right.  These things are deadly.  We've both lost friends, and I don't want to lose ... any more. LYN            There's nobody left to lose. SOUND          FEET STOP HAL            There's you, and I don't want to have to face that. LYN            [realizing]  Ohh! SOUND          FEET APPROACH BARB           I'm bleeding and you don't even care.  You just walk off and leave me.  You think it's my fault your stupid Wednesday Addams clone died.  You want me to die, too. LYN            [sighs] No, I don't want you to die. BARB           Oh, please.  Like I believe that.  You just want to be alone... and I don't even have anyone to be alone with any more. HAL            Come on.  We'll get the front door open and you'll be fine. BARB           What if I don't want to come along?  Maybe I want to leave YOU behind for the dolls to kill. LYN            You're not making any sense, Barb.  Calm down.  We all just want to get out of here alive. SOUND          RUNNING TINY WOODEN FEET BARB           I'm not going to calm down just because you tell me to! LYN            We can argue outside!  Come on! SOUND          IMPACT BARB           [oof!]  [screams!!] HAL            Shit!  Lyn!  Read!  I'll grab it! BARB           [screaming and running] HAL            Get back here!  Dammit! SOUND          STABBING NOISE, GURGLES BARB           [stops screaming abruptly] SOUND          BARB STUMBLES, FALLS BARB           [death rattle] SOUND          DOLL STEPS CLEAR HAL            Right over here, you little monster-- LYN            [begins reading the chant] SOUND          DOLL TAKES A COUPLE OF STEPS TODD           [running on]  Noooo! SOUND          RUNNING FEET DASH UP HAL            What the--? TODD           Laurel!! SOUND          RUSTLE OF FABRIC, CLUNK OF WOOD HALL           [astonished and upset] Todd?  [up] What are you doing? TODD           [going off again]  You'll never get Laurel!!! LYN            What is wrong with him?  Oh, shit!  Barb! HAL            She's ...dead.  MUSIC   16.         office 9-1-1 VOICE    What is the nature of your emergency? PEABODY        Um, I - there's been an accident at Polk High.  YES, I am serious! This is the principal.  9-1-1          Where are you sir? PEABODY        [choked up] Locked in my office. MUSIC   17.         Hallway away from office TODD           [panting for breath, swallows nervously]  You can out of my coat now. SOUND          RUSTLE OF FABRIC TODD           You wouldn't hurt me would you? LAUREL         [slight awww noise] TODD           I didn't think so.  Oh!  I have something for you! SOUND          GETS CHAIN OUT OF POCKET TODD           I hope you like gold.  It's a locket.  It was too small for much of a picture, but anything bigger wouldn't fit you. SOUND          CHAIN AGAINST WOOD LAUREL         Awww noise. TODD           Perfect.  I knew it would be. SOUND          WOOD TAP LIGHTLY ON THE GOLD TODD           What's on your hand?  [upset]  Ohhh.  Blood. LAUREL         slightly creepy awww noise. TODD           [starting to collapse into tears] No.  You're not evil.  You can't be evil! LAUREL         Awww? TODD           [sobs]  Oh, hell!  [gets ahold of himself, talking to distract her] I've always known you wouldn't hurt me, Laurel.  I put so much into you when I carved you.  I'd never let anyone burn you up...I promise!  you're so beautiful. SOUND          RUSTLE OF FABRIC LAUREL         [muffled annoyed] aww!!! TODD           CRYING, RUNS OFF SOUND          RUNNING FEET MUSIC   18.         hallway LYN            We should go after him! HAL            There's nothing we can do. LYN            Why'd he do that? HAL            He's in love with the darn thing, haven't you noticed? LYN            No.  ...I guess I'm kind of dense when it comes to romantic stuff. HAL            A lot of us are.  I know this isn't the time, but after we get out of here...  Well, keep me in mind, will ya? LYN            I - [smiling a bit] I think I can do that. SOUND          RUNNING FEET APPROACH HAL            Grab the broom! SOUND          CLATTER TODD           [coming in, panting] Quick, before I change my mind!  Start the incantation! SOUND          PAPER UNFOLDS LYN            [begins chant] TODD           Ow!  Don't struggle Laurel!  If they can freeze you, then they won't try and burn you! HAL            It's getting out! SOUND          CLATTER to FLOOR TODD           No! SOUND          THROWS COAT OVER IT HAL            Hold the coat down! TODD           Laurel!  It's for your own good! LAUREL         AWWWW! HAL            It's climbing out through the sleeve! TODD           Laurel!  Look at me! LAUREL         [angry Aww] TODD           Laurel? LAUREL         [nicer] Aww? SOUND          DOLL FREEZES LYN            Whooo.  I'm feeling dizzy. HAL            We should still burn it. TODD           No! SOUND          SHOVES HAL AGAINST A LOCKER TODD           [screaming] She's harmless now.  She can't hurt anyone. SOUND          RUSTLE AS HE GRABS HER AND RUNS OFF AGAIN LYN            I don't know what happened, but that sure... it really ...wasted me.  Did we win? HAL            Yeah.  We're still alive, anyway.  We should get out of here, though.  Now that we've finished them all... LYN            What are we going to tell people?  The police? HAL            I say we don't know anything.  Let them figure it out for themselves...that's what cops are paid for. LYN            Todd? HAL            He'll... he'll find his own way out. SOUND          [DISTANT] SIRENS COMING! MUSIC   19.         HALLWAY OUTSIDE OFFICE SOUND          DOORKNOB TURNS QUIETLY, DOOR OPENS PEABODY        [gasps] Todd? TODD           Oh, Mr. Peabody.  Um...  I think she's still breathing.  I was trying to help. PEABODY        What do you have there? TODD           Just a book.  [defensive]  It's mine. SOUND          BANGING AT THE OUTSIDE DOOR PEABODY        Stay right there.  You need to tell them what's going on. SOUND          DOOR CLOSES, TODD RUNS OFF MUSIC   20.         Leaving the building AMB            OUTSIDE HAL            You know, just this afternoon, I was sitting right over there, thinking that the only thing I wanted in the whole world was one dance with you tonight. LYN            [tired chuckle] HAL            I guess I missed my chance. LYN            It's not too late. HAL            The music's over.  Besides, neither of us is dressed for-- SOUND          KISS LYN            [breathy] Let's dance. HAL            But- LYN            Can't you hear the music?  [hums] HAL            Yeah. SOUND          THEIR FEET MOVING TOGETHER ON GRAVEL SOUND          FEET RUN PAST HAL & LYN      Todd? MUSIC END CREDITS  

PromEvil Part 3:  "What a doll!" Trapped in Polk High with some kind of murderer, Hal, Lyn, Gee (and all the rest) must fight for survival!!  Find out who's doing the killing!    A lot of people put their heart and soul into producing this memorable event: STUDENTS Hal - Mathias Rebne-Morgan Lyn - Molly Tollefson Todd - Eli Nilsson Gee - Melissa Bartell Barb - Beverly Poole Andy - Mike Campbell Bud - Jasper Loovis Tina - Chandra Wade Missy - Jade Thomson Jake - Michael Faigenblum other students - Sky Iolta, Shelbi MacIntyre, Henry Mark FACULTY Principal Peabody - Reynaud LeBoeuf Mr. Ervin Carpel, Woodshop - Gene Thorkildsen Ms. Angela Wellesly, Crafts - Gwendolyn Jensen-Woodard Mrs. Snodgrass, Lunchroom - Robyn Keyes P.A. Announcements - Julie Hoverson Rent-a-cop Bob - The Caretaker OTHERS Cop 1 - Glen Hallstrom Cop 2 - Joel Harvey 911 Voice - Julie Hoverson STAFF Writer - Julie Hoverson Doll Wranglers - Julie Hoverson, Kimberly Poole (Warp'd Space) Sound and Mastering - Julie Hoverson Stock sound effects - Soundsnap.com; sonomic.com Music - Prom - Sinkhole Music - background - Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) ____________________________________________________________________   Prom Evil - part 3 PART 3 1. LOUNGE SOUND          MUFFLED PANICKED SLAMMING AT DOOR SCREAM MEDLEY BARB           [PANIC!] ANDY           [PANIC!] LYN            Do something! GEE            Help Me! HAL            Don't - don't come in here! BARB           [PANIC!] ANDY           [PANIC!] MUSIC   2. hallway [silence] BUD            DEATH RATTLE SOUND          TINY TAPPING FEET MOVE AWAY MAJORETTE      clicking SOUND          BLOOD DROPS MUSIC   3. lounge AMB - LOUNGE BARB / ANDY    [still screaming out in hall] LYN            That sounds like Barb!  Something terrible could be happening! GEE            We can dream. HAL            Shh.  I'll look.  Stay back. SOUND          DOOR QUIETLY OPENS SOUND          SCREAMING AND SLAMMING GETS LOUDER BARB           Get it open!  Let us out! ANDY           [just screaming hoarsely and incoherent] HAL            Hey?  Who's after-- SOUND          ANDY STOPS SLAMMING ON DOOR, TURNS AND SLAMS HAL INTO WALL ANDY           [attack noise] SOUND          SCUFFLE, LONG TEAR OF FABRIC HAL            Oof! SOUND          LYN RUNS OUT LYN            [worried] Hal?   [yelling] Stop it! Andy! GEE            Here! LYN            [to gee] Thanks! [yelling]  Stop it! SOUND          HITS HIM WITH GEE'S UMBRELLA BARB           [collapsing into tears] Have to get out! LYN            [calming] Shh, Barb!  [sharp] Andy!  Hal's on our side! SOUND          SCUFFLE, LETS GO. SOUND          STRAIGHTENING CLOTHING, MORE RIPPING HAL            Man, the drama club is gonna be pissed. ANDY           The drama club can kiss my ass.  We're locked in, you stupid fuck! HAL            Locked in?  But we just came in.  SOUND          A FEW STEPS, TRIES DOOR - LOCKED HAL            [worried but quiet] Hmm.  [deep breath, then up, trying to stay positive] What a time for the teachers to realize they left the darn door unlocked. LYN            [hopeful] D'you think that's what happened? HAL            [false confidence] Had to be.  Who else could have locked it? BARB           Maybe... the murderer? LYN            Oh, gosh, did you see it too? BARB           [becoming less coherent as she continues] Oh, man... she was dead, and it was all gross, and I was right there!  She was all making these disgusting noises, and I didn't even know she was being killed... LYN            [completely baffled] What? HAL            She needs to sit down. ANDY           [growls] I got this.  [softer] C'mon babe. MUSIC   4. hallway AMB            HALLWAY SOUND          QUIET FOOTSTEPS TODD           [distant, whispered call] Laurel?  MAJORETTE      [close, clicking angrily] LAUREL         [clearly negative noise] [laurel is protecting todd from being attacked by the others] MAJORETTE      [CLICKS AWAY IN A HUFF] MUSIC   5. lounge AMB            LOUNGE LYN            We need to do something constructive.  Could we phone the Gym, maybe, and get someone to come unlock the door? GEE            Nah.  All the regular phones are turned off at night.  Too many calls to 1-800-H-O-T-T. HAL            How do you know that? GEE            [smug] I broke that story three weeks ago. ANDY           Man, we should find some weapons...if Barb's right, Tina only just died, so I bet the fucker's still around. SOUND          DOOR SLAMS OPEN BARB           [screams] TODD           The door's locked! ANDY           [yelling] Tell us something we don't know! HAL            [to Andy] Chill!  [to Todd] Last time I saw you, you were gibbering by the punch bowl... suddenly you're coherent-boy again.  What's up with that? TODD           It was awful, but...I... I just got over it.  That's all. LYN            Mr. Carpel and Missy?  We saw them too. TODD           [comes to a decision] You saw the bodies.  But... did you see the dolls? ANDY           Dolls?  What the fuck?   6. flashback TODD's FLASHBACK [NOTE:         Much of what Todd says is misleading, so some of what happens contradicts the Voice Over] TODD [VO]      I went to the Wood Shop this evening... [clearly lying] Mr. Carpel was expecting me. SOUND          LOCKPICKS, DOOR UNLOCKS TODD [VO]      The door was...uh...unlocked.  I opened it and... saw Mr. Carpel's body. TODD           [under] Ohmigod!  Laurel?  SOUND          DOLL FEET APPROACH LEDERHOSEN     [threatening noise] DUDE           huh-huh-huh TODD [VO]      And then THEY ran at me.  The DOLLS. TODD           [under, intrigued] You're... alive! SOUND          STICKY NOISE AS AWL IS PULLED OUT SOUND          SMALL FEET APPROACH MAJORETTE      [clicking and approaching] TODD [VO]      [choked up] They attacked me.  They knocked me down. SOUND          BODY DROP MONKEY HEAD    [screech] DUDE           [huh hu huh] MONKEY HEAD    [screech] SOUND          WOODEN THOK TODD           [under] Ow! SOUND          METAL BEING DRAGGED CLOSER TODD           [under] No, I don't--  Please!  I love you, Laurel! SOUND          THE DOLL NOISES CLOSE IN TODD           Ow! LAUREL         [sharp noise] SOUND          DOLL NOISES STOP SOUND          CREAK OF L's HEAD TURN LEDERHOSEN     [angry query] LAUREL         Uh-uh [no] TODD           [in the flashback] Laurel? LAUREL         [rueful noise] SOUND          ALL THE DOLLS RUN OFF DOWN THE HALL SOUND          TODD BREATHING.  SLOWLY GETS TO HIS FEET [End of flashback.]   7. lounge TODD           I don't know why they didn't kill me.  Maybe I'm just lucky...or they realized I wasn't any kind of threat. SOUND          STRUGGLE, BODY SLAMMED AGAINST WALL TODD           [gasp] ANDY           So YOU let them out, you little shit! LYN            Andy?  Andy!  [calming him] Weapons - like you were saying - is a really good idea.  [frantic, looking for support] Hal? HAL            Yeah!  C'mon, Andy.  We'll hit the-- GEE            Kitchen? HAL            Yeah, the kitchen!  You all stay here...it's safer in a group. BARB           [sullen] If it's safer in a group, why don't we ALL go? LYN            [under her breath]  Todd's in no shape to go anywhere.  We can't just leave him! BARB           [disgusted noise]  Fine. MUSIC   8. hallway AMB            HALLWAY SOUND          METAL FILE SAWING ON METAL LEDERHOSEN     [EXASPERATED NOISE] SOUND          CHAIN SWINGS BACK AGAINST DOOR SOUND          SMALL WOODEN IMPACT AGAINST DOOR LEDERHOSEN     [snarl] SOUND          HIS FEET TAP AWAY MUSIC   9. kitchen AMB            KITCHEN SOUND          DOOR SLOWLY OPENS HAL            Hello? ANDY           Shh! HAL            [urgent whisper] The lights are on!  Someone must be in here! ANDY           Why aren't they saying anything? HAL            Cuz we're whispering?  [up, but cautious] Hello? SOUND          DOOR FARTHER OPEN, A COUPLE OF FOOTSTEPS HAL            Looks clear.  Come on. ANDY           Dude, I'm guarding the rear. HAL            Fine.  [sigh] SOUND          DOOR STARTS TO SWING SHUT, BUT IS STOPPED ANDY           [sniffs, then sharp] What's that?  HAL            Dunno.  Alcohol? ANDY           [long sniff]  Smells like bourbon.  [a bit happier]  Dude.  Just point me at it! SOUND          WALKS IN WITH CONFIDENCE HAL            We're not here for-- ANDY           [screams] SOUND          RUNNING FEET LEAVE HAL            What is it--?  Where?  Hello?  [angry sigh]  [muttered] I better see what-- SOUND          SLOW FOOTSTEPS HAL            [gasp]  Mrs. Snodgrass! SOUND          SCUFFLE, PATS, TRYING TO WAKE HER HAL            [revulsion noise]  Oh man! SOUND          TINY HANDS TAPPING ON GLASS HAL            [scared gasp] What the hell? DUDE           [muffled huh huhs rising] SOUND          FIRE IN THE OVEN HAL            [awed whisper]  Dolls.  MUSIC   10.         lounge AMB            LOUNGE SOUND          PACING SOUND          PAGE TURNS GEE            This is one weird book.  I can make out bits of it, but I think it's really old, and the words are all mixed up and spelled wrong... kinda like middle English.  Is there such a thing as middle French? LYN            Where are they? TODD           [duh] The Kitchen? LYN            Not them.  The police! SOUND          PAGES TURN BARB           [spacing out, talking to herself]  Andy is cute... TODD           Police?  [worried] Oh... GEE            The motivating...or maybe moving... of the ... unmoving? BARB           ...and he's pretty well off. SOUND          CHAIR SQUEAKS TODD           I have to go. SOUND          FOOTSTEPS - HIS AND LYN'S BARB           He would beat the crap out of someone for me. LYN            What? TODD           I have to go.  And... and get something. SOUND          PAGE TURNS GEE            [musing] Preparation of the mannequin? TODD           [lying] I... I think there's something in my... locker that I can use as a weapon. LYN            We need to stay together! GEE            [louder, but not in a different tone] Anointment of the offering. LYN and TODD    What? GEE            I think I mighta found something... Anointment of the offering.  [unsure] Maybe.  I REALLY need my dictionary.  SOUND          BOOK SLAPS SHUT GEE            [excited and a little creepy] And I want to see the bodies. MUSIC   11.         hallway AMB            HALLWAYS SOUND          FOOTSTEPS, WOODEN CLUNK ANDY           Don't tell 'em I was all getting sick back there, will ya? HAL            Huh? ANDY           With the dead lunch lady and all.  It'd make me look kinda ...you know. HAL            [exasperated]  Yeah, whatever.  It's our secret. MUSIC   12.         lounge LYN            Look!  Both of you!  Wait til they get back.  We don't know how many of them [not quite believing] ...the dolls... there are. TODD and GEE    Five. TODD           Why do you know?  GEE            Who do you think takes the photos for the annual? BARB           I thought you were a reporter for the nerdletter. GEE            [pissed] I wear many hats. LYN            Too bad we don't have the photos-- GEE            Oh, that's easy. SOUND          PURSE OPENED, CAMERA ON, BUTTONS PUSHED GEE            Oh, good.  I haven't overwritten them all. BARB           If that's a phone, can't we call--? GEE            It's not.  I prefer not to wear a tether. LYN            Let me see. GEE            Besides, where's your phone? BARB           [muttered] I dropped it...somewhere. TODD           Do you have one of Laurel - um, my project? GEE            You can look after Lyn's done. SOUND          CLICKING THROUGH PICS LYN            And these ...dolls are somehow up and running around? GEE            Shh!  [beat, then whispered] Something's coming! SOUND          VAGUE TAPPING, MUFFLED AND DISTANT LYN            Shit! SOUND          A MOMENT OF TENSE SILENCE TODD           [whispered] Can I see the camera? LYN            Ssh! SOUND          ANOTHER DISTANT WOODEN CLUNK LYN            There must be something in here we can fight with! BARB           Yeah, lotta pockets on a prom dress! GEE            Stand back. SOUND          DOOR THROWN OPEN SOUND          FEET GEE            Yaah! SOUND          THUMP OF UMBRELLA ANDY           Ow!  Crazy bitch!  That's my kicking leg! SOUND          STICK SWINGS, MISSES, SMACKS WALL LYN            Andy! HAL            Dude! GEE            [gleeful] Stee-rike! BARB           Andy?! SOUND          CLICKY HEELS DASH ACROSS THE ROOM, IMPACT, SOMETHING WOOD CLATTERS TO THE FLOOR BARB AND ANDY   [mushy kissing] HAL            Can you guys move that ... um... touching reunion out of the doorway?  I'd rather not just stand around in the hallway ...by myself... like this.  [sigh] TODD           [petulant] Can I see the camera, now? MUSIC   13.         punchbowl AMB            GYM, MUSIC, CROWD SOUND          PUNCHBOWL POURS PEABODY        What in heaven's name is all this, Angela? ANGELA         [snarky] Someone called the cops.  Again. PEABODY        If it's a question of the noise--? COP1           Sir, we had an emergency call-- PEABODY        [sigh]  Officer [reads] Trask?  You have to understand my position-- RENTACOP BOB    what's all this? PEABODY        sh-sh-sh. COP2           We received a report over 9-1-1 of a possible homicide in the school. PEABODY        A what? COP1           A possible double homicide. RENTACOP BOB    [huffy] Inside?  School's locked up tight.  Ain't nobody in there - live or dead. PEABODY        Calm down, Bob.  [to the cops]  May I make a suggestion, officers?  Prom night is a notorious time for practical jokes...and though I realize you MUST take any such report seriously-- COP2           We can't just-- PEABODY        Yes, yes.  I understand completely.  [confidential]  However, if we can prove to you that the building is secure, and there's no possible way anyone might have managed to get inside, will that be acceptable?  COP1           Well... COP2           As long as it's all locked up. PEABODY        You're more than welcome to return in the morning, when the school is open, to perform a thorough search.   14.         Hallway AMB            HALLWAY SOUND          LOCKER SLAMS SHUT GEE            You coming? LYN            I'll watch the door. GEE            Hold these, then. SOUND          LOADS HER DOWN WITH BOOKS, UMBRELLA LYN            Oof! SOUND          TURNS ON CAMERA TODD           Don't erase the picture of Laurel! GEE            Chill, dweebula.  I have them all on my hard drive. TODD           Oh! SOUND          DOOR OPENS, CLOSES SOUND          ANOTHER NEARBY DOOR OPENS SOUND          CLANKING OF METAL - ROLLING OF HAND TRUCK ANDY           Sweet.  SOUND          CLICKING OF STRIKER ANDY           Nuke 'em from orbit! TODD           You're not going to burn them all, are you?  Not ... Laurel? HAL            Laurel? TODD           She's... it's... the doll I carved.  She wouldn't hurt anyone. ANDY           Well now they're all living, breathing Chuckeys, and I say fry every last one of them. SOUND          STRIKES THE STRIKER MENACINGLY ANDY           [explosion noise] TODD           [Weakening] No! ANDY           No, that's "Nooooooo" [bruce willis running scream] [chuckles] HAL            Let's focus on getting out of here.  Gee? LYN            In... there. SOUND          WHEELING OF HAND TRUCK ANDY           I'll take the big truck.  You get the value menu. HAL            Whatever. SOUND          HAND TRUCK PARKS, FEET MOVE, DOOR OPENS A CRACK HAL            Gee? GEE            [muttering] This is just like that game I was in last week... HAL            What? GEE            Just thinking... Extreme case of short-timer's curse. LYN            What? GEE            Poor bastard was this close to retirement. MUSIC   15.         Outside AMB            OUTSIDE SOUND          FEET ON GRAVEL COP2           Are you sure this Mr. Carpel isn't in the building?  His name was given as one of the victims. PEABODY        Ervin Carpel?  Nonsense...he's already turned in his building keys.  We had to let him go, you see.  As of the end of the school year.  His safety record was ... unsatisfactory. COP1           So he might have a good reason to participate in a prank?  I see. MUSIC   16.         Hallway outside wood shop AMB            HALLWAY ANDY           So do we just wait for those tiny sons-of-birches to come to us? SOUND          DOOR OPENS, FEET COME OUT GEE            Now I need a place to do some reading. MUSIC   17.         Outside, parking lot AMB            OUTSIDE SOUND          POLICE CRUISER DRIVES AWAY RENTACOP BOB    I'll go take a look around.  No problem. PEABODY        [dismissively] Nonsense.  No reason to justify our merry degenerates by taking their ploy seriously. SOUND          THEY WALK MR. PEABODY     We can perform a complete walk-through before we open the school in the morning to make sure there are no ... surprises.   18.         Hallway AMB            HALLWAY SOUND          SNEAKING FOOTSTEPS, SQUEAK OF HAL's SNEAKERS HAL            [cautious, but trying to be heard]  Hello?  [louder, but still muffled]  Hellllooo? SOUND          FEET AND VOICE STOP, LISTEN SOUND          DISTANT TAPPING HAL            Oh, shit.  [sucks in a breath, up]  Hello? SOUND          ONE FOOTSTEP TODD           Which one is it? HAL            [completely stunned]  Yah!!!   [coming down]  Oh, shit!  Todd! TODD           Why are you in the polky costume? HAL            I have my reasons.  Get your ass back to the craft shop. TODD           I'll... uh... watch your back? HAL            [quiet] I don't trust you. TODD           Why not? HAL            Forget it.  Look, just stay the hell out of my way or I'll run your ass over. TODD           I can run. HAL            I'll bet. SOUND          SNEAKING FEET BEGIN MUSIC   19.         Craft shop AMB            CRAFT SHOP LYN            [pleased]  Oh!  There it goes!  I thought it would never warm up. GEE            I told you it would just take some time.  A kiln isn't a microwave. BARB           Oh, Andy, you're so strong and protective. GEE            [quiet gagging noise]  You guys!  Someone made that quilt, and they won't appreciate you getting it all sticky. LYN            Anything? GEE            Apart from nausea? LYN            The book? GEE            Well, I'm pretty sure this is the "spell" he used to animate the dolls.  I may even have a clue why they turned on Carpel... the spell says the master's supposed to carve the dolls himself.  LYN            Todd says... Todd?  Oh, hell, where'd he get to? ANDY           Dumbass wants to get himself killed, who are we to stop him? SOUND          IDLY CLICKING THE STRIKER GEE            Anyway, there's this other incantation thing which... [very dubious] if I'm reading this right... should make them freeze back up. LYN            [plaintive] You're not sure? GEE            I'm having to make a lot of guesses, here. The dictionary just don't cover everything. I mean, the incantation isn't even FRENCH... just... gibberish, far as I can tell. MUSIC   20.         Hallways TODD           I heard something over there! HAL            Stay the hell back! TODD           Do you have a plan? HAL            Well, it was to sneak up on them, but there's this person talking. TODD           Oh. SOUND          FOOTSTEPS SOUND          [DISTANT] SCRATCHING NOISES MONKEYHEAD     [distant] annoyed screech TODD           Do dolls make noise? HAL            I'm dressed as a giant purple polka-dot.  Do I look like an expert? TODD           Uhh... HAL            Shh! SOUND          SNEAKING STEPS MONKEYHEAD     screech, closer TODD           Soon as you see it, tell me-- SOUND          RUNNING FEET, GOING AWAY TODD           What it looks like... MUSIC   21.         punchbowl AMB            GYM ANGELA         Bob?  Can you do something? RENTACOP BOB    [swaggering]  I can do anything.  Whatcha need? ANGELA         Marge went into the building for something, and she's been gone for just ages.  [simpering]  Could you go and look for her?  As long as I'm stuck at the punch bowl, I can't even get in one itsy bitsy weensy dance. RENTACOP BOB    I gotcha covered, babe.  [clears his throat]  That was a quote.  Not meant in any sort of harassing way.  ANGELA         I understand.  SOUND          DOOR OPENS, HE GOES OUT AMB            RAIN, CRICKETS BOB            I'll check it out, but first...  [chuckles] MUSIC   22.         hallway SOUND          PELTING FOOTSTEPS TODD           [breathless] wait!  I need to know if it's Laurel! HAL            [panting, stays ahead] [yelling] Get ready!! SOUND          DOOR OPENS, AHEAD LYN            Come on! HAL            [gasping mutter] God I hope this works. [up] Out of the way! SOUND          BATTERS THROUGH DOOR LYN            Over here! SOUND          LID OPENS TODD           [still outside] No!  Check first! SOUND          DOOR SHUTS SOUND          POUNDING ON DOOR GEE            Do it quick!  We have to know if this will work! SOUND          RUSTLE OF HEAVY FABRIC, CLATTER OF WOOD MONKEYHEAD     [SCREECH] SOUND          POUNDING OF WOOD ON METAL TODD           [from outside]  Don't leave me out here by myself! GEE            [to him] Just a sec!  Come on! LYN            It's climbing out! HAL            [groan, slump] MUSIC   23.         Parking lot AMB            OUTSIDE SOUND          RUMMAGING IN STUFF RENTACOP BOB    [chuckles] Not on MY watch. SOUND          ZAPZAP OF TASER.  PUT IN CASE. RENTACOP BOB    Little shits deserve a scare. SOUND          REVOLVER CYLINDER SPINS, GUN INTO HOLSTER RENTACOP BOB    Let's see your little pranks now. SOUND          TRUNK SLAMS HUT SOUND          FEET SET OFF ACROSS GRAVEL MUSIC   24.         Craft shop LYN            Oh!  [noise as she smacks the doll]  Uh!  Uh! UH!!! MONKEYHEAD     [SCREECH, dwindling] SOUND          IT FALLS BACK, SHE SLAMS LID! LYN            [Breathing heavily]  Done. SOUND          DOOR OPENS, TODD RUNS IN, DOOR SHUTS TODD           Noooo! GEE            Did yours have a monkey's head? TODD           Huh?  [gasp of relief] No!  Ahhh. LYN            You could have helped. HAL            I - I don't.... LYN            Oh no!  He's bleeding! BARB           [screams] END OF PART 3  

“Collaboration isn't easy, and that's where having someone to shepherd this along to support them is critical,” explains Todd Erickson, Founder of Collaboration Arts, a creative consultancy for collaborative meetings, events and networks. Today he talks about the importance of collaboration and how diverse communities can come together to create authentic change. Polarity management is vital for creating healthy collaborative environments. Communities are made of diverse groups of individuals, all who may have different and potentially conflicting points of view. For open discussion and authentic change to occur, people must feel safe to share their views without fear of backlash. Todd facilitates this by breaking people down into groups and giving everyone a chance to be heard. Using a discussion methodology where people can voice their ideas and then vote on which ones to implement helps reassure people that they are being seen and their ideas are being valued.  When problems are approached from a multidisciplinary perspective by people from diverse backgrounds, there is greater chance for creating innovative solutions and inspiring authentic change. Leaders may be inclined to balk at the idea of collaboration, because they fear polarity. However, the best leaders are ones who understand polarity management and can embrace differing viewpoints. Quotes: “Helping communities to really see this polarity as a set of values that seem to be in opposition to each other, but are actually interdependent, because we need both values over time to be successful.” (22:20-22:40 | Todd) “It's not about everyone getting their voice at a mic, it's about everyone getting their voice at the table.” (25:03-25:09 | Todd)  “Doing cycles of this kind of discussion methodology really gains the trust of the community, because they see that they're being heard.” (27:40-27:52 | Todd) “Collaboration isn't easy, and that's where having someone to shepherd this along and to support them is critical.” (31:46-32:00 | Todd) “One of the great values I think art provides for us is this ability to help us make sense of our world. Artists bring these new perspectives and help us to see things we can't as individuals see.” (43:04-43:24 | Todd)   Links:   Mentioned in this episode: Learn more about Mike Horne on Linkedin Email Mike at mike@mike-horne.com Find more about Leading People and Culture with Authenticity   Learn more about Todd Erickson Website: collaborationarts.co  LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/collaborationarts;  Email: todd@collaborationarts.co  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/collaborationarts/     Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

"An advanced practice provider's scope of practice can vary drastically depending on where you practice; listen to the ASCO Education's third episode of the advanced practice providers series, and learn more from our co-hosts, Todd Pickard (MD Anderson Cancer Center) and Dr. Stephanie Williams, (Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine), along with guest speaker Heather Hylton (K Health) on what scope of practice is, who or what defines it, and why knowing this information is critical to your oncology care team success. If you liked this episode, please subscribe. Learn more at https://education.asco.org, or email us at education@asco.org   TRANSCRIPT Todd:  Hello everyone, and welcome back to the ASCO Education Podcast, and the third episode of the Advanced Practice Provider series. I'm Todd Pickard, your co-host for this series, along with Dr. Stephanie Williams. We'd also like to introduce you to our guest panelist today, Heather Hylton. Heather, why don't you share a bit about yourself, what you do, and where you're from. Heather: Sure. Well, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to join you in this podcast. My name is Heather Hylton. I'm a physician assistant based in New York. Most of my career has been in oncology, but I've been fortunate to have been able to serve in administrative and clinical roles in organizations in multiple states. So, I'm currently working in the remote care space, and I'm excited to bring this experience to our conversation. Todd:And Stephanie, why don't you remind our listeners today about your background, and why you have so much experience and really just have a really true appreciation for working with advanced practice providers. Stephanie: Thanks, Todd. I've worked in oncology for almost 40 years and I've had the opportunity to work with advanced practice providers, both physician assistants, and nurse practitioners for a couple of decades now. I've been in stem cell transplants and cellular therapy, and they're absolutely integral to our practice, both inpatient and outpatient in that particular field. Todd:  Well, in today's episode, we're going to be talking about advanced practice providers' scope of practice; what it is, what it means, who defines it, and why it is important for oncology APPs to know and understand what their scope of practice is. So, why don't we jump right in? So, I think it's important to define scope of practice first. So, I would like to just offer a little bit of a perspective around that language of scope of practice. Generally speaking, it is what is allowed by law at any particular state for an advanced practice provider to perform care on patients; what types of patients they can see, what kind of medications they can prescribe and write, what kind of activities they can be in, what kinds of relationships they have to have with other providers and delegating or collaborating physicians. So, generally speaking, a scope of practice can be very, very broad or it can be very, very narrow. And it really depends on the state and how the state defines it. So, I'm going to ask Heather to jump in here and can you provide an example or a story, or a case that comes to mind that helps illustrate scope of practice for an APP? Heather: Sure, I'd be happy to, you know, in terms of how I think about this, very simply stated is, what it is that I'm permitted to do as an advanced practice provider. And the boundaries, as you said around this, are really determined by a number of factors. So, education, training, experience, my competency, federal law in some cases, state laws, regulations. And this may also include, as you mentioned, specific physician collaboration requirements, facility policy, clinical privileges that are granted by that facility, sometimes payer policy factors in, and then of course, the needs of the patient. So, one very common question that comes up in the oncology space is, can APPs order or prescribe systemic therapy? And the answer of course, is really going to be determined by going through that checklist of the entities that determine if this is something that that APP can actually do. So, one example I have is a facility where the module that they utilized for ordering systemic therapy provided system rates only to physicians. And the facility that had been using that module before APPs were widely integrated. So, there were some innocent assumptions made that the absence of the APPs in the module meant it was “illegal” for APPs to order systemic therapy. So, in working with this group, we were able to go through this checklist. So, there were no federal or state restrictions on this particular clinical activity, but it needed to be written into the facility policy. So, criteria for establishing competency were devised. And then an education training plan was designed, implemented, and driving systemic therapy became part of that privileges requests from the APP, and then the systems' rights issues were also addressed. So, this was truly a success story in being able to safely expand the number of clinicians, who were able to prescribe systemic therapy in a busy and growing facility. Stephanie: Heather, what does it mean to you (this is a term that our administrators throw around a lot and our nurse managers throw around as well) to practice at the top of your license, whether you're a nurse, physician assistant, or an advanced practice nurse; what is the top of your license? Heather:  Well, this is a hot topic. And top-of-license practice really comes down to role optimization. It is just good business. It means that the patients and the caregiver's needs are being met by the professional with the appropriate training, experience and competency for each function or task that the professional performs. And from an engagement standpoint (which I know is not the topic of our conversation today, but it is important) we know that people want to engage in work that they find meaningful. While that definition certainly is individualized, a common thread is being able to leverage that education, training and experience you have to help others. And often, the reason why we really pursued our careers. Todd: I think this is such an important topic to talk about, is the top of license practice, because it really impacts all of us, Stephanie. You know, as physicians, you want to do what you've been trained to do, which is to assess a patient, have a differential diagnosis, do a diagnostic workup, arrive at a diagnosis, create a treatment plan, and have that treatment plan implemented so that you can care for the patient. And APPs are the same way. So, when you have folks, whoever they are, whether they are the nurse or the advanced practice provider or the physician or the social worker or the pharmacist, whoever it is; if they are utilized in a way that does not take into account all the skills and competencies that they have to deploy and provide for that patient, they're really working below the top of license. As an example, if you had an APP go from room to room to room with you seeing patients and the only thing that you had the APP doing was scribing, that APP is working well below their licensure. And in fact it's incredibly wasteful with limited resources in healthcare, to have folks who have lots of skills and competencies working at a level where you really should have a different member of the team providing that service. Like if you need a scribe, you should get a scribe. And so, I think that kind of illustration really makes it salient to folks to think about; we should all work to stretch the knowledge and skills and competencies that we spent so much time developing in all of our training and our certification. Because otherwise, it's just wasteful. And as Heather said, it's not very satisfying. Stephanie: Todd, I think that those are excellent points that you bring out and I think that's very important for people to realize that APPs aren't scribes, they aren't there to extend me. They're there to help me as a physician in my practice, to help the patients actually. And then we should work together as a team to give the best patient care that we can. But many times I see my colleagues, just as you said, going from room to room with their APP and expecting the APP, you know, “I'll pontificate and tell you do this, that, that and the other, and then you go out there.” I think also from a career and job satisfaction rating, it's really important to have that team around that can help each other out. And I think that really does help in terms of decreasing burnout and other things like that. Todd: So, Heather, can you give us some idea of how is scope of practice defined at a state or an institutional level? How do people arrive at those kinds of decisions or, you know, how does an institution decide what the scope of practice is? How does it work? Heather: Taking a step back and just, you know, kind of thinking about it through different lenses. So, you know, in contrast to physicians whose scope of practice has minimal variability from state to state, we know that there can be a bit more state to state variability for APPs. And the regulatory bodies or agencies can also be different. And there may be multiple agencies that weigh in on what that APP can do within a particular state. And so, it's certainly important to be familiar with the Practice Act for each state in which you are licensed. And I would also add onto this, in certain geographic areas, this may be particularly relevant to you if you are in a practice that has multiple locations in multiple states, but we'll come back to that a little bit later. But, you know, again, kind of going through your checklist, starting off, looking at what the Practice Act says, and these can all be written up in many different ways. Sometimes it comes across as what I would call like a laundry list, which when you first read it, seems pretty straightforward, but it can also kind of lead you into some issues because if it isn't on there, then what does that mean? Some Practice Acts are written up really more on the basis of what activities are excluded or things that you cannot do as an APP. And then some are just kept very broad, which sometimes makes people uncomfortable, but I would encourage you to not be uncomfortable with that because sometimes, they're written this way in order to give you more flexibility to set that scope of practice at facility level, which is ideally where you really want to be cited. You don't want to create something more limiting or more restrictive than what the state actually allows you to do. Todd: That is a critically important point and one that in my 24 years as an advanced practice provider who happens to be a PA, that has come up often and frequently is, “Well, it doesn't say this” or, “It doesn't specifically exclude that. And so, we're uncomfortable.” And my response is, “Well, that gives us an opportunity to create this space”, because, you know, many times, as you point out, Heather, these kind of ambiguities are written intentionally, so that local practice decisions can be made, so that physicians and advanced practice nurses and PAs can decide as a team, how do we work? You know, in my state, it was very specific that they wanted APPs and physicians to collaborate on ‘what does our practice look like?' And every local level, outside of those very large kind of rules about who can prescribe and who can pronounce a patient dead or write a restraining order — outside of those very large things, they really want us, they want the care team to figure it out and to do it in a way that's best for our patients. I think that is the best approach, is when we get to decide how we work. You know, the places, some of the states that have these laundry lists, you're right, Heather, it seems like, “Oh, that's easy,” but then you're like, “wait a minute, there's only 10 things on this list and we do, you know, 57, what does that mean?” And so, I think it can be very disadvantageous when you have those lists. And I do think it's important to think through these things, work with your legal colleagues to analyze these things, and then take an approach, stake out some territory, you know, once you've gotten informed and say, “This is what our scope looks like, we've all talked about it and this is how we're going to work as a team.” So, that's wonderful when you've got that level of flexibility. I think that's really great. Stephanie: Does insurance reimbursement play any role in terms of scope of practice, either locally or nationally? Heather:  It absolutely can. And it's important to know, for example, if you are in a practice, where you're seeing Medicare patients, to understand Medicare conditions of participation. If you are in a practice where you are taking care of patients with Medicaid or certainly private payers as well, like understanding what is actually in those contracts, so that you can make sure that you are either updating them if you need to, or making sure that what you need to be able to bill for is billable within those contracts. Todd: It's really interesting because I always have a sense of feeling like I need to cringe when somebody says we can't do this because of a reimbursement issue, and also, partially laugh. And the reason why I have both of those reactions is it's typically a misunderstanding, because saying that we won't reimburse for oxygen unless a physician's order is present to prescribe the oxygen does not equate to only a physician can do this. And so, you constantly have to kind of explore these issues and say, “Okay, so yes they use the word physician, but as an APP who has a collaborative delegatory relationship with a physician, and according to my state license and scope of practice, I write physician orders.” So, if you connect those dots, if I, as the APP, have written the physician order for the oxygen, it meets your criteria. It doesn't say a person who holds a medical license, it says physician order. And so, I think that's where you have to really constantly be on guard about these misconceptions, misunderstandings, and these ambiguities. And as Heather said, working with APPs, you just have to say, “Look, there's going to be ambiguities, we're going to work it out, we're going to figure it out. And, you know, reimbursement is important.” But you have to remind folks that reimbursement doesn't define practice, it defines how you get paid. Stephanie: Excellent point, Todd. Excellent. Heather: I'll add a story to that as well. When I first came to New York, I became aware of a situation where the narrative at a particular facility was that a major private payer would not reimburse for services provided by PAs. Now, I thought that was a little strange, but, you know, I was a new kid in town, but at that time — there are more now, but at that time there were 10,000 PAs in New York. That's a pretty big number. And so, I thought, you know, I probably would've heard something about this if this major payer would not reimburse for these services. So, to help with the situation, I started doing the research, you know, looking at specific information from the payer, checking with connections at other facilities to learn about any issues that they may have experienced with this payer, checking with our national organization and so forth. And really, nothing was coming up, suggested that the payer would not buy reimbursement for services provided by PAs. And ultimately, it came down to something very simple, which was the facility just didn't have this in their payer contract, they hadn't needed it up to that point. So, it made perfect sense and it was fixed once the issue was identified. So, this goes back to just being very vigilant about the research that you're doing. And sometimes, it takes a little time to get to the solution, but really that perseverance does pay off. Todd: Heather, I'm sitting here, I'm laughing because I just had a recent example of where the right and the left hand within a state had no idea what was happening. So, an employer who does ambulatory outpatient treatments at different retail locations (we'll just leave it at that) there was this concept that PAs as an example, were ineligible because of the state requirements that then were reflected in this company's policy. And what was so interesting is that a PA colleague of mine started investigating and I said, “Well, what does the state law say?” And she went and she looked and she said, “Oh, it was changed last year that this thing that was causing this policy in this employer was changed.” And I said, “Well, does the company know that the law was changed?” So, she reached out to the medical director who was a physician, whose daughter was happening to want to go to PA school. So, she had an in, she had an in right away, which serendipity does play a part here. And she said, “Did you know that the state law changed?” And they said, “No.” And so, she sent them the state law and then within a week, the medical director said, “Oh, just so you know, we're hiring PAs now, we've updated our internal policies to reflect state law.” So, sometimes it's just these small things that people forget the details, that when something changes, you have to reflect that in your policies of companies or institutions or your practice group. And that's the one thing that I think is so different for APPs from physicians. Physicians are kind of just granted this big broad authority and it rarely changes. It's very stoic and it's kind of fixed. But for APPs it is constantly in flux, constantly in flux. And that's just the nature of it. I don't know why it's been that way. We've organically developed this in the United States over the past 50 years, maybe 50 years from now, it'll be different, but right now, it's not. And so, I think that's the important thing is there's more space out there for advanced practice, scope of practice and top of licensure, than you think is possible. It just requires a little work. Heather: I will say that I 100% agree and, you know, when you take a step back from some of these, like these Practice Acts, they tell a story about the climate in the state and the history in the state. And it's quite fascinating if you like that. I'm not the most fun person at a party, but, you know, these things, they tell a story and it gives you a good sense of what's actually going on in the micro environment in that state. In the last year plus, I've spent a lot of time reviewing Practice Acts of most of the states of the union, and so, I have this ability to really compare. And I also know which states I really, really like and which ones are a little bit more challenging. But there are things like even legislation that's left over from the industrial revolution that's actually influenced how a particular pharmacy interprets, you know, whether or not they can accept a prescription without a counter signature from a physician. And so, some of these things, like when you start drawing some of these lines, it becomes very interesting and it definitely comes down to some interpretation as well. So, always being able to work with a good legal team or people who do understand Practice Act information and working with your state resources as well, as well as your national organizations can be very impactful. Todd:  I would also say step one is to pull up whatever Practice Act is influencing something and read it. They are in English, they're not in Latin or French, they're in English. And many times, you can find something very plainly said. Other times you do need your legal friends to help you understand, “Okay, now what does this mean? I read the words but it's not clear.” But sometimes it will say, you know, “An APP may prescribe a controlled substance.” Period. So, oh, well, there's an answer right there. Now, there may be a how-to section later, in another part of the regulatory or administrative code within a state, but for the most part is, don't be afraid to look, don't be afraid to phone a friend and explore and ask questions. Stephanie:  You're eligible though for controlled substance licenses nationally, right? A DEA number? Todd:  That's a hot topic. Stephanie:  Is it? Heather: There may be other things that you need to do within a state as well in order to prescribe. So, for example, in Massachusetts, even to prescribe legend drugs, you need a Mass Controlled Substance Registration, because any substance that's not a DEA scheduled substance is considered a category 6 substance in Massachusetts. So, if I'm going to write a prescription for Omeprazole, I need to have a Massachusetts Controlled Substance Registration, as any prescriber would in the state. So, again, some of these little nuances, making sure that you're very familiar with that and doing the research. Stephanie: So Heather, you're in New York, I'm sure you get patients from Massachusetts. So, you have to make certain that you can prescribe both in New York and Massachusetts and probably, Rhode Island and all the states around there? Heather: Well, you bring up a really good point, which is, you know,when you are in a practice that has locations in multiple states, and we can talk about telehealth a little bit later. But if you are in a medical group that has practice sites, say in Connecticut, Massachusetts, and New York, licensed in all three states, and you work at sites in all three states, say you're an APP who likes to float and you make these commutes each day. So, all three states may have significant differences in their Practice Acts or what you need to do in order to optimize your practice in that state. And that includes collaboration requirements. So, some states have the ability for nurse practitioners to have autonomous practice, but there may be other steps where you may need a particular license, in order to be able to do that within that state. So, again, being very aware of those steps that you need to take is really important. Stephanie: So, Heather, you mentioned telehealth, which is a big topic through COVID. I don't really have to tell people how big a topic that is. So, what are the changes or what is going to happen with that now that we're “getting to the other end of COVID”? Heather:  That's a big question mark, right? So, certainly, the advancement of telehealth was an important development during the pandemic. And many states have a separate set of laws, regulations that govern delivery of healthcare services through telehealth. So, if your practice is utilizing telehealth to deliver medical services, it's necessary to be fluent in this information. So, this can include important information such as how a patient provider relationship is established. And, you know, it may also include information on prescribing practices, what may or may not be permitted or the conditions under which a prescription can be provided and so forth. And so, some states relaxed telehealth-related rules under state of emergency declarations. And so, making sure that you are up-to-date on this as some of those rules have returned to the pre-pandemic state and some of those relaxations actually became permanent. And of course, if you're billing for these services, knowing the payer requirements and then the policies and procedures you need to follow, in order to bill for those services. And where the patient is physically located at the time that the service is being provided, is the state in which you need to be licensed in order to provide that service. So, if Todd is performing a telehealth service for a patient in Oklahoma and he's not licensed in Oklahoma, he won't be able to see that patient. Todd:  It's really strange because telehealth has brought a different layer of perspective around scope of practice and licensure that we hadn't really faced as much before, right? So, for example, I've been a PA for 24 years. I have been able to call across state lines and interact with patients and talk to them on the phone, get updates on their surgery, if they're having, you know, a postoperative infection, get them an antibiotic and do that kind of work forever. But as soon as you add that technology and that billing entity called a telehealth encounter or a virtual encounter, it becomes a different animal all of a sudden. And this really came to light during the pandemic. And we quickly realized all of these things made it impossible. And that's why all the states did all of these emergency declarations saying, “Just forget it, just take care of people.” But now that we're getting past that, we're kind of going backwards, not because anything bad happened, but because folks are saying, “Well, we want to go back to the older ways where, you know, every state could have differences in regulations and make folks pay those professional fees to get licensure.” So, it'll be interesting to see how this space develops, particularly since our patients are becoming more consumers. Really, they want to talk to who they want to talk to, when they want to talk to them, and they want service here and now. And I think we're going to have to continue to respond and adapt to that. And some places will lead and some places will lag. But those lagging places quickly are going to start having conversations within the state and our legislators will respond. I mean, politically, it will change over time. It just, you know, matters how quickly. So, it's really an interesting thing to watch unfold in real time. Stephanie: Heather, any final remarks, concerns, advice to those out there, both physicians and advanced practice providers, about how to handle questions about, my God, what is your scope of practice? Heather:  I'm so glad you asked Stephanie because I have a list I might be able to pass them along. So, here we go. Do take the time to review the state Practice Act information and laws and regulations and of course facility policy governing a practice where you are. And as the license holder, you are responsible for knowing what you are permitted to do. Please do not make any assumptions about others' knowledge of this. Unfortunately, I've seen people get caught up in that and always own it, yourself. Generally, recommend facility policy not be more restrictive than what is permitted under the Practice Act of the state. Fact check, challenge your assumptions, and if you haven't had the chance to already do so, do check out the ASCO Advanced Practice Provider Onboarding and Practice Guide for more resources. Stephanie: Well, I'd like to thank Heather for her excellent insight into this very complicated topic. Todd, as always, is always on top of everything. And sharing both your experiences and your ideas with us on APP scope of practice, which can vary quite drastically depending upon the state and also the type of institution you practice in. Stay tuned for our next episode. Until next time, take care. Voiceover:  Thank you for listening to the ASCO Education Podcast. To stay up to date with the latest episodes, please click subscribe. Let us know what you think by leaving a review. For more information, visit the Comprehensive Education Center at education.asco.org. Voiceover: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy, should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Todd Riccio, Realtor and longtime Investor from California, discusses how he became interested in the Memphis real estate market and offers his experiences over the years of real estate investing and management of rental properties here in Memphis, TN. Find out more about this real estate investing podcast at: https://epmrealestate.com/podcast/california-based-realtor--investor-on-investment-real-estate--property-management-in-memphis-tn   Aaron: Today on the podcast, we have Todd Riccio. He is a longtime investor with Enterprise Property Management and EPM Real Estate, and we're going to talk a little bit about how he has become interested in the Memphis real estate market and maybe even tips and bits of wisdom that Todd has had over the years investing here in Memphis. Todd, you have been an investor with Enterprise Property Management for six years. Is that right? Todd: Yeah, six years.  Aaron: It's been a fast six years, right? Like, you really got in at a great time. Todd: I remember flying out to you, man. Well, I flew out to you and said, look, my goal is to get 40 to 50 properties. I want to get at least one to two a year, and you said right now, when we spoke, you said it's the equivalent of California's 2009, and six years later, you are pretty accurate, man. You know what I mean?  Aaron: Yeah. Todd: Because the prices have gone up and the properties that I first bought on Ross Road and stuff like that, that was like $105,000, probably like 250 right now. Just real estate agent out here in California. Obviously, prices make it extremely hard for me to build a portfolio out here. When the average house in Memphis, that would be 120,000, out there would probably be about 700,000 out here. So I knew that kind of branching outside of California would be the best option for me to accomplish my goals of having a portfolio that brings me $50,000, $60,000 a month when I get older. That's the goal right there. That's my 401K. That's my pension. That's my retirement, all these properties. Aaron: Do you remember what brought your attention to Memphis originally? Like what caused you to look over in our direction? Todd: I always did a bunch of research. I was going to seminars. I'm always looking for passive income, and Memphis was at that time one of the cities that would always pop up in different websites of best cities to buy rental properties, and Memphis popped up. Boise popped up, Indianapolis popped up, and Fort Lauderdale popped up. I think Scottsdale popped up, but Memphis was one that always consistently kind of popped up to me. Personally, I don't like the Panhandle States. I don't like Florida. Every time you turn on the news, Florida is getting a Hurricane. They're getting flooded. All this other stuff. There's Hurricanes. There's tornadoes. So Memphis was super stable. I remember when I spoke to you, you said, look, Memphis is pretty much an established metropolis. It's gone through its growth stage, and it's pulled backstage. You got Amazon headquarters there. You got Nike, it's growing. They're putting money back into the community. You got the Amazon fulfillment center. You got Shelby Farms. You got all this stuff. So it was kind of one of those cities that have already been established. It's not like an up-and-coming one, and I just felt comfortable. I felt comfortable with you guys. I felt comfortable because I actually flew out and me flying out and checking out the different neighborhoods is just one more piece of info gathering and due diligence, and ever since then, I'm comfortable with the knowledge, and I kind of think that that's kind of one of the things that I respect you on is there's times where I've said, hey, Aaron, what about this area, and you're like, look, I don't even think we could get a roofer out there because the neighborhood is not the best or anything like that, and you need that as an investor because it's not just about numbers, oh, this is a quadplex or a fourplex at this price, and the return is good. You need someone that's boots on the ground. That's, like, you probably want to like, from what you're looking for Todd, this isn't the neighborhood that you would express to me that you wanted or anything like that. I appreciate that info, and I think I'm comfortable after the first couple of them to get in my kind of system now, my numbers and my algorithms and everything, you know what I'm looking for and stuff like that. So it just seems to be working, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Aaron: Yeah, well, one of the things about working with you that I wish that other investors and other clients of mine would adopt is you do have a very decisive approach to investment real estate. You understand exactly what it is that you're looking for. I think that you had a really good start to your run. We bought some single-level homes in established neighborhoods that were built in the 90s, I believe, and you and I discussed this. We discussed in Memphis, what generation or what age of construction is really good for investments in an ongoing manner here, and so you and I talked about how, like we here in Memphis, if you live in Memphis, if you've lived in Memphis for a long time, if you do real estate in Memphis, especially, we have a term out here that we use called new construction or newer construction, and so what does that mean to us? Well, new construction basically means anything to me, at least, anything that's the late 80s or newer, and why is that different? Well, it's different because the technologies that we're putting into houses as we were building them back then are more durable. We're not dealing with poisonous building materials such as asbestos or lead. We're not dealing with shoddy electrical lines, like aluminum wiring that you found a lot in the 80s or late 70s all the way up into the early 80s. You're not dealing with things like I don't know… Todd: Asbestos. Aaron: Right, as asbestos. There's a type of plumbing material that the Dow Oil company produced. I think it's called polybutyrol or something like that, which is known to burst. It's like early Pex, and so if anybody knows what PEX is, we improved. We improved code and zoning, and these areas of newer construction are also in neighborhoods that are still highly desired by owner-occupants. And so Memphis being a wonderful town for investment, you can still get in and buy just like you have an investment property, which is right next door to someone who was on their property for anywhere from ten to 30 years, and you want to live next door or an own investment property next door to that guy you don't want to buy in neighborhoods that are all investment properties. You might as well buy a condominium or an apartment if you want to do something like that. But you've been very smart. You're like, where is the value? Right. So I've really appreciated you for that, and then the other thing that I love working with you on is you and I will often get in and we'll talk about a property and it'll get down to $10,000 or $20,000 difference in the price of the negotiation, especially in the last two years. You'll tell me, you'll say, Aaron, I feel like this is overpriced by 20 grand. What do you think, and I'll be like, yeah, I think it is. Your ability to walk away from a contract that's being negotiated and just say, you know what? I didn't like, what I saw, that the deck or the roof looks weird or that skylight looks like it's going to need repair. It's always going to be a problem. I'm just going to walk away. But we know that buyers can use that inspection as an excuse to walk away from something where they don't feel like now that they know the house better, they don't feel like they're getting a good deal, and you're very fast to point that out and say, you know what? I'm just going to pull the plug and walk away, and I love that about you. It's really good. Todd: Yeah, and the thing is, I'm on property number six and all other five of them that I've gone into contract. I've closed on because I'm also, like, a realist too of, like, look, at the end of the day, it's one-time fixes and stuff like that. But I think also having experience with the five other properties becoming more and more anticipatory of, like, I know that I'm going to get a letter from you guys saying, like, hey, the fence is shot or this that and the other thing and being in this industry, being in the real estate industry for so long, too, I'm all about preventative stuff and pro-activeness and stuff. So very rarely do I ever cancel. But this one I think I was like, look, it's probably like 15K, 16K, 17K to get it even rent ready, and after talking to a couple of agents, they think that it might slow down in November. I don't know if that's true or not, but around Thanksgiving time because I'm always hungry, too to get a minimum of one to two a year. So I'm still on the prowl of getting it. But it has to make sense as well, and the thing is, I've narrowed it down to a single story because me and water after being in this industry, water does not do well with houses and having a second floor. I just get nervous about water leaks through the ceiling and stuff. So single-story brick house for the maintenance, two-car garage, because I just value storage and stuff like that a usable yard, all that stuff where I'm sure other properties would do just as good. But this is just what I feel comfortable with, because you and I always have that conversation I'm like, look, Aaron, I know the rental market is very active right now, and properties are renting pretty quick, but I want the properties that no matter what the rental market is, if it's slow, if it's fast, if it's quick, what properties are going to be in the top 10% to rent out? I don't want the black sheep. I don't want the white elephant. I don't want the ones where in the time where the rental market is good, it gets rented out. But then when it's not good, we're sitting there and stuff like that. So I'm going to pay a little bit extra to be like, look, it's cool to have the two-car garage and storage when it's snowing and stuff like that. It's cool to have the brick and single-story because that's desirable and stuff like that. It's cool to have a yard because they barbecue and have their kids play outside and stuff. So that's also something that I value, as well as your opinion of this is going to be a very active one, no matter what the rental market is as opposed to on the lower end of it when the rental market does slow down. Aaron: Which it's funny that you should bring that up. So earlier, Todd, you had briefly touched on the fact that there will eventually be a slowdown in the rental market, and I know that your philosophy is obviously to make sure that you have just operable properties that aren't going to require. They don't require a lot from the renter. For instance, in order to move into their relatively simple, relatively basic layouts. There are all kinds of very specific preferences that you have that I think really head off these larger maintenance costs. That's really smart, and I agree with you. I want to go back and talk about storage for a second, at least a one-car garage man. For years you and I have talked about we'll look at a property. You'll say this one came up, the money looks good, and every single property that you send me has at least a one-car garage, which is very, very smart. In Memphis, Memphis is a very typical city of a million people more or less, and so in an urban setting or even a suburban setting that has urban tendencies or an urban demographic, you're going to have foot traffic, you're going to have petty crime, and so having an open carport in a city like Memphis is not a good idea. You know, like in Memphis, you need a garage for the door that shuts, and so you can keep your outside stuff outside, but also in an enclosed area that's secured. So another point that I would make to any investor that's looking to purchase property in Memphis is this if the house that you're looking for or if the house that you find that doesn't have a garage is $10,000, $15,000, or $20,000 cheaper than the house with a garage by the house with a garage. From a rental standpoint, it will always stand out to the renter. We have a great house on the market right now. It's a three-bedroom, two-bath. It's less than ten years old. It has a beautiful brick and French country facade. It was one of the last French country houses that were built here, and it has no covered parking and that it has no garage, obviously, and that poor house is just sitting out there and nobody wants it because they can't like, where are you going to store your stuff? Todd: Yeah, I kind of base it, even though California and Memphis are different markets, price point-wise. Human psychology, I think, is the same, and I think that after hearing clients out here, garages are huge because even if you're not going to park your car in there, people always have more stuff than they have room and stuff. So it's just having the options. I remember when I first started looking six years ago. There were some properties in central Memphis that have the laundry area outside in the carport area, and I'm like, Look, I don't want that either, because I relate that to the equivalent of houses out here having laundry in the garage, and sometimes when I hear people going when I'm showing buyers around like, oh, I don't want to go to the garage for laundry. I want it in the house. I just associate that with the same thing with Memphis, like, who wants to go out when it's snowing to get clean underwear from your dryer when it's 20 degrees out and stuff like that. So I just basically take my knowledge here and say what's the most desirable and the most desirable is going to be a two-car garage. Its single story is going to cater to not only the younger people that want to, but it's also going to cater to older people that don't want to climb stairs or anything like that. So single story. It's cool because it caters to more people having a yard to just stretch your legs out and stuff and not feel crammed to have kids play around and stuff and then again, the brick facade where there's not wood rot and damage and termites and all that stuff. So I just basically take whatever my knowledge is here and just transferred over to the Memphis properties, because again, at the end of the day, people want the same stuff just as people don't want to go in the garage in California. I'm sure people don't want to go out in the cold in Memphis and stuff, and so we can have an indoor laundry and they could park their car in the garage and walk-in their house with direct access and stuff like that. All that stuff is going to be desirable in my mind for the long term. Aaron: So there was a time when you and I were looking at these possible purchases, and we found several you would find, especially back in 2015 or so, and you would find four or five comparable in a certain area, and you would say, I'm looking at all of these. Which one of these do you think would be the most reliable? You know, which one of these do you feel like is going to bring the highest rent and obviously be the most attractive on the market, and we used to thumb through a Rolodex of houses that were possible purchases. I know that those purchases have probably become limited as you look in the Memphis marketplace right now. Can you kind of compare markets? Let's even say from 2019 to now, like, what is the difference to an investor when you're looking at the marketplace now versus two years ago? Todd: Well, I mean, the one thing that two years ago, I think that the good properties and stuff like that from what I saw two years ago, something would go like maybe 5000 over the asking. So if it's listed at like, 149, because up till last year, it seemed like $150,000 was like the ceiling of what these properties could yield that would fit what I'm looking for. But over the past couple of years, it seemed like 150 now is kind of the minimum, and it's kind of surpassed that. So I saw the prices increase. But another thing I've seen is whereas two years ago where if a property was like 149, it would sell for 156 or 155 and go 50. 00, 60. 00 over, and stuff like that where I just wrote an offer on another property and the highest offer with multiple offers was $30,000 over the asking price, and that just blew my mind because I was like, Are you kidding me? That's 20% over the asking price and stuff like that. So that's something that is new to me that I've seen is buyers in the Memphis market are aggressively going over asking, whereas a couple of years ago, they might go over asking, but it would be five, six grand, seven grand, maybe eight, nine grand, but not 30 grand. That was just unheard of or anything. So that's the one thing I've seen. But given that my background is real estate, I also have strategies that I could separate myself to where I can call the shots. For instance, when I wrote the offer, I was like, look, remove the appraisal contingency. I get it. I understand the terms, and I was like, put an escalation clause in which says I'll pay 33,000 over the highest verifiable offer and stuff like that, and that's where the listing agent came back and said, hey, we haven't offered 30,000 over the asking price, and I said, I'm out, you know what I mean? But it gave me the opportunity to know what I needed to be at as opposed to the listing agent. Just saying, oh, you didn't get it. We chose someone else. So there's different strategies that I use here that I use there that really stand out to the seller. And that escalation clause is great, because why not have a seller get 3000 more dollars with no appraisal contingency and stuff like that? So, again, if I could separate myself and write a more aggressive offer, I'm in the know of the risk and rewards and stuff like that. But it's all little strategies here and there that at least put you in the running to see if you want it at that price.  Aaron: Well, do you put a cap on your escalation clause? Todd: I don't because I could just walk away, like when the person said we had 30,000 over the asking price. I'm like, I'm out. But the thing is, I've seen when you put a cap, they know exactly where you're at, and so they know exactly where your cap is, and you could tell it. Say, I put offer 150 with a 3000 escalation up to 160 if someone comes in at 162, I'll never hear about it. So it's like, I'd rather not put a cap, and if an offer comes in at 161, they might say, hey, we had an offer of 161. You want to come in at 164. So I don't want to lose the house over two or three grand or anything like that. But when you put a cap in, you're kind of putting a ceiling on your place. So I would rather have no ceiling, and that also makes it difficult for the listing agent to know exactly where you're at because if you put a cap on it, the listing agent knows exactly what you're willing to come up to. If you put no cap, he's kind of flying blind to what he's advising the other buyer's agents of where my offers are. Aaron: So how are you financing your deals right now? Todd: I'm financing it with my own cash, 25% down. So $150,000 property probably takes about 30 GS, probably 35 with closing costs and stuff like that. So 35 grand gets another property. Aaron: So you got, I assume, a line of credit, or are you doing individual mortgages on each property, individual mortgages. So having said that and I know you're probably going conventional and not FHA, and so you don't have to deal with all of the federal requirements for houses to close. And then you've got repair addendums, and you've got all these other things that you have to deal with an FHA loan that you don't have to deal with conventional. So now we know you're fantasy game does appraisal matter to you? Todd: It does to a certain point. I think that I'm experienced enough to look at a property, look at what's sold around it, and kind of have a pretty good idea of where this thing is going to appraise that. So like the one that I was just talking about earlier, the one that came in 30,000 over. I'm out of that one. But if they came in 5000 over 6000 over and stuff like that, I'm not too concerned about it. I mean, even if it doesn't appraise by a couple of $1,000, I understand you have to pay to play and stuff like that, and at the end of the day, if it costs me a couple of thousand extra Bucks out of pocket, it's not a scarcity mindset. It's an abundance mindset, and I already know that I'm going to make the money back tenfold with just having another property because my main thing is keeping my momentum going and keep growing the portfolio and pushing myself to keep adding to and keep adding to it. I think I'm a good mix between looking at the numbers and being number conscious and stuff, but then also understanding that this is a good property. It's a good property. It's in a good area. If I have to pay an extra two, three, $4,000 to get it. It's the name of the game. I already know that I'll make it back and stuff like that in the next month with all the other incomes I have coming in and stuff, and it gets me one property closer to my goal of financial freedom and stuff. So it's just taking the abundance mindset and not the scarcity mindset because if you're dealing with the scarcity mindset and anything in life, you're always going to be hesitant and pulling the trigger and stuff, and it's just one of those things were being in this industry has really helped me out making these decisions and stuff, because again, I deal with a bunch of buyers out here where they find the property of their dreams, and they're scared to do a couple of thousand bucks, but they're paying 3,000 bucks a month in rent and it's like, look, just bite the bullet and just take a leap of faith and stuff like that. So if it matches everything and it's single-story with a two-car garage and it's upgraded because then I also look at okay, say, I don't get a house as upgraded. Is this what's the cost of the rent-ready one and that's like the other one I canceled on earlier this year. It's like by the time the fence around the whole perimeter was done cutting back the bushes, getting the wood trim of the deck repair, and stuff like that, as opposed to getting a property that's completely upgraded and spending an extra three or four or $5,000 because it didn't appraise but not really putting any money into because it's completely upgraded. I can quickly do the pros and cons and the risk and reward of that. Aaron: And the one that we were talking about may have only been a month ago. I'm not sure. Todd: Yeah, it was in September. Aaron: Yes, it was Southeast Memphis is where we were looking, and that house had zero updates. It was really disappointing, and you were really smart to pull out of that one. I mean, just updating a home in $2019. You're looking at $10,000-$15,000. We've got delays now we've got supply chain interruptions. I don't think we've necessarily seen the effects of the Hurricanes in the New Orleans area affect us as badly as we thought was going to happen. But we had a Hurricane come through about a month ago and it hit the Glidden paint factory. Hopefully, I can say that on-air and not have any issues. But the Glidden paint factory basically had stockpiled paint, as they always do, and the base paint and primer and things like that. But basically, the Hurricane flooded the entire factory, and they said, look, we can ship out what we've got and we can ship the base solution out to other refineries and paint makers so that they can finish the base product and move that out. But they were talking about a 30 to 45-day retrofit, and so we were going to have paint shortages and all of the lows and all the Home Depot and all these stores, my painters, a lot of my painters. They just stockpiled paint. They just said we're a Glidden company. We're going to buy up this paint and we're going to make sure that we have some in case there's a shortage so that they could continue to work through the winter. So anyway, that's just a random thing that's happening here in the south. We know what you like and we know what you've purchased. How do you foresee the changes in the marketplace if we take the whole foreclosure opportunity out of there, and I think that's something that you and I really need to investigate at a different time. But what are you looking at now? Because we know what was on the market. That was really great. That was rehabbed before. We know what's currently on the market, which really is not upgraded without a huge premium, and to ask and we know that you're not going to overpay and I respect that. I'm not going to overpay either. I'm not going to do it. I'll pay above a little bit for the joy of owning it and operating it and say, okay, I've got my one or my two for this year, but I'm not going to waste 50 grand just for the opportunity cost. That's not a good opportunity cost. Did you buy one this year already? Do we have one under your belt? Todd: Not this year. I'm going to be aggressively looking around November. November and the last two years. I've closed in December of that year. So like last year I closed December 31, and then I think the year before that I closed right around Thanksgiving and stuff like that. So I'm going to be aggressively looking in the next two or three weeks to be looking again, picking up my one for the year and then continuing to just push and push and push and even exploring the multi-units with you and stuff like that. So just always be open to pulling the trigger if the right property comes along. Aaron: That's cool. Just so that, you know, Glenn has got a couple in the bag right now. That just came across today, like in the last 2 hours, and they're both Cordova. Todd: Yeah, for sure, man. Aaron: Yeah, and that's exciting because we don't get Cordova a lot anymore. But these two, they're slightly distressed, just marginally. I would say 2% distressed, and that two to 4%, and of the value of the house itself, I would say, is cosmetic. So that's cool, and that's just proof right there to anybody listening. There's always an opportunity out there. If you're willing to have a conversation, right, you've got to be open to having conversations with people. You cannot do this on your own. When you listen to Todd and me talk right now, you're listening to two Realtors, and so earlier in our conversation, Todd was talking about how not trusting your realtor can get you into a lot of trouble. Realtors go through a lot of education. We go through a lot of continuing education. Being the principal broker of enterprise, property management, and EPM real estate, I have to take so much more education than even my agents. I have to constantly be paying attention to the news that comes down from our local state real estate Association and from the National Association of Realtors, and really know what's going on. Your realtor is being paid a Commission for their performance. Todd is a performer. There's no question, and he looks for a similar performance with us. Even though our markets are completely different. He asks me very high-end questions, high-level questions that he is asked as a realtor every day. He wants to know as the buyer, what am I getting myself into? What's my risk here? What do you think about this? What's your opinion? What would your experience suggest would be the proper course of action at this time? And then he relies on the information, my feedback, and my insight in order to make his decision, and I love the fact that he faces a lot of his decisions based on what I convey to him, not just his gut. So that's just so, so important. Listen to your realtor. There's a reason why you've hired them. So anyway, just to sort of ask you a couple of questions just to kind of wrap up where we are, and it's been a great conversation with you. Your fingers are on the pulse of what's happening in California, and I think California is kind of a leader in what happens in real estate. Really in the rest of the United States. You guys are sort of on the top end of fluctuations in the national real estate market. What happens in California often informs, the rest of the country as to where the real estate market is headed. You got some weird stuff going on over there like you were talking about earlier, very inventive insightful, imaginative solutions to real estate transactions, lots of technology, the rest of the country, though, like, if you stay away from the coasts, we still deal with hands-on. Right. Like, we want to go to the property, Glenn that we were talking about before. A lot of my agents will meet the neighbors. My wife, who just became an agent, by the way, four months ago, was at a property two days ago, and she was with the buyer who had flown in from New Jersey, and they were looking through the property and who would come out except for the neighbor. Right. So they met the neighbor and they got to ask those questions, right? Like, really important questions. What's your experience here? What would you do differently? What do you think about this property that you're next door to, or do you think they're asking too much? What would you do with this as a rental if you were to own it? Is it going to bother you to have a rental next door? What are your expectations of the community and of the tenant that leases here, and so a lot of that's going on? So back to my question again, when you consider your own business next year, and you also consider your investment business, what are the changes that you see happening in 2022 that you are aware of that you're going to be maybe shifting gears a little bit in order to respond to, and then how does that affect your investment outlook for 2022? Todd: I just think that there are so many moving parts right now that's all the statistical previous historical data. I think it goes out the window. We have a pandemic going on. You have inflation talk. You have the stock market talk, interest rate talk, Treasury bond talk, jobless talk. You got the borders that are going crazy around the country. You got other countries that are going crazy. So it's one of those things where I just put my head down. I just put my head down and do everything I can and just do better than the year before that and not really sway. I always think of Warren Buffett, where he said, when everyone scared, you go head first and stuff like that and that's kind of what I've been doing even in the stock market right now, like, all the stock of inflation and this that and the other thing I've just been continuing to buy and just continuing to buy and continuing to buy stock and properties I feel like are going to be in the future very productive and stuff like that. I'm getting into electric vehicle materials, raw materials. I'm getting into cannabis stocks. I'm getting into Carnival Cruise Line and United Airlines and Royal Caribbean and cell phone towers because of the 5G with electric cars and stuff. So it's just basically doing you and not really letting outside factors get in the way because there's times where I've seen time and time again people that I spoke to in my career five years ago, six years ago, two years ago, like, oh, the market is still going to dip. So I'm waiting here and they're trying to time the market, and they said that four years ago, I remember I spoke to a tenant four years ago and I was like, look, man, get in, and he was so Gung-Ho that he was getting a good deal on his rental, whereas just say the market value is like $2,000. He was getting charged, like, 1600, and he felt like he was winning the Lotto because he wasn't paying market rent, and that hindered him to buy a property because he was looking at the perfect property and this and the other thing and that didn't come along, and then all of a sudden, another year goes on and that and then nothing came, and then another year. Before you know it, if you would have bought four years ago, he would have had, like, 200 grand equity in this property and stuff like that, and you fast forward, and he's still been renting, no tax write-offs. So a lot of people look at outside factors of the market is going to dip in this, and the other thing. I just go with my plan, and my plan is at the end of the day, I want to have 50 properties by the time I retire, and if you really look at real estate, it might go down. You know what I mean? Look at 2009 when everyone thought the world was going to end in California, and then you fast forward to 2020 and they're above water again, and all the people that held onto their house and was okay with the 30 years the fixed rate at that number, paid and paid and paid and now have equity and now are above water, and the world didn't end, and all the people that short sell their house and gave up on it and thought that it didn't make sense to pay a mortgage on an $800,000 house when it's only 600 and they ruined their credit and they paid for rentals and this and the other thing and they're letting outside factors screw them up. It impacts you so much. So I have a big ideology of, like, make a goal and just whatever the factors are just making an educated decision and stuff like that. But I'm not slowing down whatsoever, because I already know that even if I buy a property that's 180 or 190 in Memphis and it goes down a little bit by the time I retire and stuff, I'm not looking at it to sell it. I'm looking at it as investment, passive income. I want to have about 50,000 a month when I retire, coming into me from all my rental incomes and stuff like that. If rent is going to go up over the next 20 years and I'm cool with this payment, and it makes sense now, then I do it. I don't try to time stuff. It's just it's one of those things where there's so many factors with Covid numbers, China defaults of Evergreen, you got the chip shortage, you got inflation, you got interest rates. There's so many factors that you could pick one and be like, this is really going to happen. But if I just do me, I've done that all the time and I lead with what my goals are, and it seems to work out because, at the end of the day, I don't let fear get in the way. I just say, you know, what if I pay this and it goes down because I also have that talk with my buyers and they're like, well, what if the market goes down 30K? I'm like, well, let me ask you this. If you buy a house and it goes up 30K, you're going to sell it and they're like, no, don't sell it. If it goes down 30K, I'm like, you understand that if you're cool with the monthly payment, you're fine. Right? It's like a stock. You could buy Tesla stock or go Bitcoin. Even Bitcoin was 40K, 45k. It went down to, I think last week 30K, and now this week, it's at 65K. So did the people really lose 10K or did they really gain 20K or are they still cool with what they got and only makers or lose money when they sell it and stuff like that? And when I'm buying these properties, I'm not looking to flip these things. I'm looking at my future 50-year-old self, and when I'm 50 and it's 2040 or 2041. I really going to care that I spent 170 on a property that the next year was 160, or am I going to be happy that I got 50 properties and stuff like that and they're all paying for each other and stuff. So it's always coming from a place of abundance and not scarcity, and the people that I've seen live their life on scarcity are the people that don't live a good life. I'll tell you that. Aaron: I think you're right. I think that there are a lot of people that make decisions out of fear, and I was reading an article about whether or not we have a balanced economy or an imbalanced economy, and this article that I read gave a lot of different ideas as to whether or not it was an economy that was based on greed or fear, which are the animal spirits which drive the stock market. Basically, it stated that there was more greed than there was fear, which is a good thing. It's a market that's a little out of balance. It's a little look to the positively expecting that things will be even better, and there's a lot of risks that people are taking out there. But at the same time, there's a lot of cash that people have right now, and we've seen that in California real estate, for sure. As I've said previously, that rip effect has gone all the way down to places like Memphis, Tennessee, Indianapolis, Cedar Rapids, other cities that are very popular for real estate investment. I definitely agree with you. Real estate, to me, is a buy-and-hold venture. I think a lot of people watch HDTV and they think I could flip this house. They watch Chip and Joanna Gaines or The Property Brothers or several new shows out there. I obviously don't watch IGTV because I don't know the name of the new shows, but they've got these new shows out there that are like people that are out there flipping houses and they're making money. My favorite shows are the shows where they do show people that lose money, and then they ask them at the end of the episode, they say, does this change your faith in the market or because you lost money on this deal? Some people get their shirts handed to them and they lose that $30,000 or that $40,000 on a venture that was supposed to make them $100,000, whatever because they tried for the fast money, right? I really appreciate your perspective on real estate, and I will say this one last thing. We have had so many houses sell out of the enterprise property management portfolio over the last two years. I would say it's at least 200 houses that have left in my management portfolio. That is a lot for a property manager to lose in two years. Simultaneously, we have had at least 300 houses come on over the last two years. So there are more people getting in similar to you, Todd, than there are people getting out. That's a big deal. I hope our listeners are hearing that I really appreciate you and your perspective on investment, real estate, and your partnership with all of this, and I am looking forward to working with you as the leaves change color and as they fall, things get cold around here. People do not want to buy so much. I think there's going to be an opportunity here this winter, this fall and winter, and then into next year. It's going to be great. So I really appreciate you coming on with us and sort of sharing some of your energy about investment real estate and how you've applied that here in Memphis. We're grateful to you as an investor and as a friend. Todd: Yeah, man, I appreciate all the insight that you give and it's invaluable, too, because again, the big picture is to have this for my retirement and stuff like that, and you really are the last line of pulling the trigger and stuff like that. Even down to a potential tenant where one of your staff was like, hey, Todd, we got these people and I said, hey, if Aaron's cool with it, I am and you came back and you're like, I'm not really comfortable with this. I value all that because again, what your ideal client is completely different than what California ideal client is, and so I could go and kind of base it on what the ideal California landlord is looking for, and it's going to be different than the Memphis landlord, and so I really value your guys ‘opinion and just the raw truth of it and stuff like that. So, that's all stuff that I appreciate you doing, and I think that we got a good system going on. I'm looking forward to many more purchases. Aaron: I'm grateful for that. Thank you for that. Interestingly. We're seeing the quality of the local Memphis and Southern tenant coming up, which is unbelievable. It's a really good sign of the local economy and the local demographics doing better. They're more successful in their own business ventures and with their education. You had mentioned major corporations which have relocated to Memphis and are now employing more people. That, of course, is going to continue. You and I didn't even have a chance to talk about the Ford F-150 Lightning plant that's coming into the Memphis area. It's a really cool concept. We could talk about it later. Basically, Ford had a plant here in Memphis that built Model T's and Model A's and all kinds of Ford vehicles here in the Memphis area all the way up until 1951. I think they sold at that time, and then now here we are, 70 years later, 75 years later, they're breaking ground. I believe next year on the Ford F-150 Lightning platform, which is all-electric.  Todd: Nice.  Aaron: This is just outside of Memphis, and so it's going to mean lots of great jobs and new housing, housing developments, and stuff like that. So anyway, we're going to walk through that together and see what kind of opportunities are out there. But thanks again for coming on, and I appreciate your insight as well. It's always very informative and helps me to even educate other investors as to how to do things based on your knowledge and your experience. So thanks for coming on.  Todd: Thank you for having me.

 Back on Episode 96 of this podcast, I was talking about how to get started trading for a living. And that came about because I got an email from one of our students saying that he had just been laid off. And he needed some help, and some sounding board about what he should do. Should he go back to work? Should he new start trading full time? And he gave a little bit of the background? And you know, I read his email on that episode. And then I gave, I had written him an answer, but then I went into a little bit more detail in that episode. But right now I'm happy to say that I have Todd with me on the line here. And he is going to be giving us an update of what he decided to do, the situation, what happened and how he did it. So Todd, welcome to the show. Todd: Yeah, I am. Yeah, thanks for having me on. Allen: Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on. You know, it can be a little bit vulnerable, embarrassing a little bit, you know, when somebody gets laid off, it's, you know, not always under our control, especially when you're working. So I appreciate you taking the time to help us out here. Todd: Right, no problem. Allen: Cool. So can you go back a little bit and tell us so what exactly was the situation when you had sent that first email in? Todd: Yeah, so the situation was I ended up losing my job. It was due to budgets that were constrained because of the Coronavirus in response to that. And so some of the projects that I was working on, the funding got pushed out another year. And so they couldn't, you know, they couldn't compensate me anymore. So they laid me off. And at that point, I had already signed up for to have your blank check program, I was kind of starting to get, do the homework, but I really didn't have a lot of time to do it, when I was working full time and balancing family and, and then when I got laid off, it was more imminent. Todd: And so I thought, well, this might be an option that I I'll have more time to dive into it. And so that's what I did and I sent you an email and said, "Hey, Allen, is it really feasible that I could, you know, do this full time and at least cover my my hard cost- my expenses?" And that was my initial goal. I wanted to, you know, cover my mortgage bills, you know, monthly expenses. And, you know, your advice at that time was, yes, it is possible, it may take you a few months to get up to speed. So, and I think at that time, you said maybe you should look at getting a part time job, something like that. And, I ended up not doing that. I just kinda, I just kind of dove into it. And I think in the third month of trading, I was able to meet my goal. So that's amazing, right? So I met my initial goal of just covering my expenses. And, and then the next couple months, I increased my goal. And I think I was running about an average of 10% rate of return on my trades. So month to month, it was real positive. And I kept scaling up. So it's continued to be a positive experience. As you know, last month, it was a little bit volatile, a little bit of a roller coaster. I ended up getting out of that month, I think I met I was at 8% of my rate of return. So.. Allen: That's still really amazing. 8% a month is a good month. Todd: Right, right. So it's good for that. Now, what's changed recently is now that I've learned this, and I've gotten a little more in tune to the oil market, I'm actually out again, looking for a job and what I think I one of my plan is continue trading at this level, and then find a job. So I think I have more time during the days that I could I can do that. And and so hopefully I could go back make my original salary, and I can still, you know, profit from the trading. Allen: Oh, that's really interesting. Wow. I mean, yeah, I didn't see that coming. Todd: Right. Right. Allen: So okay, so you are in our oil options program. And you're also in another You said you were in another program which one the passive the passive trading. Todd: The passive trading program. Allen: So when you started trading full time, right after after the layoff? What did you focus on? What did you trade? Todd: I jumped, well, I went through about half the courses of the passive trading program and got a you know, learn what options are how they were, but I ended up migrating towards the blank check program with oil. I'm okay. With my job. I'm more in tune with the energy markets. It's more interesting to me. I can understand I can understand that supply and demand a little bit better. And so that just appealed to me. So I, I really dove into that. And that's what I'm doing 100% right now, in the future, you know, in the next couple months, I plan to go backwards more into the strategies that you teach in the passive trading and use probably use, you know, covered calls on, you know, on some other other trades, just to supplement. Allen: Right. Okay. Yeah, because in the passive program we do, you know, cover calls, naked puts, covered credit spreads and whatnot. And just to make a living, it's a little bit harder with covered calls and naked puts. We do have students doing it with credit spreads, but like you said, you know, when you need to go from zero to whatever it is cover the expenses, the oil one, it just, it has more, I guess, bang for your buck right away. Todd: Right, right. Allen: Credit spreads do too but the covered calls naked puts, I mean, those are, you know, maybe 1 to 3% probably, or profitability in a month, how much you can make a return? Well, we we go for 10 credit spreads, we go for 10. So those are more the strategies that if you're going full time, then yeah, I like what you said. Because, you know, once you have that coming in that extra cash coming in, then you're like, Okay, now what do I do with it? Okay, now, let's put it into building up that foundation that we talked about in the past program where you're putting in stocks, and you're just cash flowing that foundation. So cool. I like the thinking of it. So if you don't mind that what was that goal? The original goal? You know, you said it was okay to cover the expenses. How much was that? Todd: Yeah, the original goal was $5,000. Allen: Okay, and how long it took you three months to get there? Todd: Yeah, I think my third month I hit that. Okay. So the months before that, I was at about $2,500, $3,000. By the third month, I hit that. Allen: And how long have you been doing that? Like, how long has it been since you started full time? Todd: Since March? Okay. Since March. Allen: So September is almost nine months? No, seven, seven months? Todd: Right. This would be the seventh month. Allen: Okay. Awesome. Awesome. So we got seven months, and what was your best month? Todd: Best month was actually last month at about $8,000. Allen: Okay, awesome. Cool. So now, originally, when in your email, you said your wife was a little bit concerned? What do you What does she feel now? Todd: Well, she is, and it's more because she's just a little more conservative. Or I would say that her risk tolerance is a little bit less than mine. Right? So in her opinion, and rightfully so it's, we have a family, we have kids in the college, you know, so she's just don't comfortable with the fact that it's not sustainable. Every month, necessarily. Allen: It's just not that checks just doesn't come in every month. Right? Todd: Exactly. Yeah. Allen: It can vary.. Todd: It can vary. And, and so that's really what she's uncomfortable with. So, you know, if I think if I get another job on the side, and I do both, then I'll be more than sustainable. And I'll be bringing in, you know, more money than I that I was previously making. So.. Allen: And that'll get her to be a little bit more relaxed. Todd: Exactly. Exactly. So yeah. It'll be it'll be a win win for for everyone. Allen: Yeah, I mean, that's one of the reasons I started option genius was to get me off of her back. She was like, Hey, can you go leave me alone? Can you go do something else, you know, and she didn't I get where your wife is coming from, because my wife was coming from the same place. She's like, you know, you're doing the trades, you're looking at it every day. I don't know what you know, to me. It's just up and down, up and down, up and down. And so I don't feel secure. And for my wife, it was about security as like, you know, I need to know that I'm going to be able to pay the bills, or go to the grocery store, and my car's not gonna get declined, you know? So absolutely. So she's like, yes, if you can get me something on the side, then I'm okay with you trading, but that on the side has to come in. Like, okay, I think we can work on that. Todd: Right? Yeah, that's, that's a lot where we were so or where we are now. So. Okay, we're working through it. Allen: So the business that you were in, it was construction, right? Todd: Yeah. Construction Management. Allen: So that has, is that picked up again now? Todd: Yeah, it sort of has, I mean, it took a dip with the COVID. A lot of funding was frozen in the, you know, the immediate industry that I was in and, you know, things are picking up. So, yup. Allen: Okay, cool. So, all right. So let's recap. The industry that you're in had bit of a constriction. They didn't have any more work for you. Right, you decided, Hey, I'm going to try my hand at trading. Did you give yourself like a deadline, like I'm going to try it for three months or six months or I have like 50,000 I could lose, or did you have some kind of, you know, line at the end? Todd: Yeah, I think it was really like, three to five months. Okay, is what I was figuring. I mean, I was under a little bit of pressure and motivation, I guess, right? I really wanted to make it work. So I kind of went all in and was having, you know, good success. And so I kept going. So I, you know, is really, you get, like, get thrown to the wolves, right? You got to, you got to make it work. So that's really what I did. And that's how I learned by, you know, putting skin in the game, putting money in it. And that's where I really paid attention, and was my motivation to learn it. So.. Allen: That's awesome. So what would you say your return average has been on a monthly basis? Todd: I think I hit 10% every month, except this last month. Allen: Wow. So every month for like six months? You did 10? And then this last year? You did 8? Todd: 8. Yeah. Allen: That's phenomenal. That's amazing. Yeah. So then you started doing that. And obviously you had, you know, you had the the program. You know, you had the coaching calls, right? You had all the stuff that comes with it. But you had to actually do it. You had to get in and be like, Okay, I'm making the dishes, I'm going to put this I'm going to scale it, you decided when to scale. Kudos to you for that. And then now so Okay, so you've gotten you want your goal was like five, you've surpassed the goal, you're making more than you were making as a working. So how long does it take you to do your trading right now? Todd: Oh, yeah. You know, I spend about two hours a day, not just on trading, but on, you know, looking at news, educating myself, you know, looking at different websites. I, I probably spend two hours a day on on it. Yeah. Allen: So we're doing two hours a day, we're making a really nice income. But now you're gonna go back? Because you're going to basically you're diversifying, right? Correct. One income source. Now you're adding a second income source, which is going to take more time. But you know, going back to work, it does, you know, keep you mentally sharp gives you social interaction, there's there's several benefits of working with a lot of other people. And so that's going to give you so do you think you'll still be able to do the two hours a day of trading? Todd: Oh, I think so. I think I can still, you know, check in on it. First thing in the morning, I've got to the app on my phone, where I can keep tabs. And, you know, I think I need to jump in. You know, I certainly could do that for a few minutes during the day. And then, you know, check in again in the evening. So I think if I just keep tabs on it all day long, I can control what my positions are doing. Allen: Okay. Yeah because some people might listening to this might be like, what? This guy's crazy, he's doing so great. Why is he going to, you know, why doesn't he just continue to scale? Why is he going to go back to the workforce, you know, if he can, if he can take some of that money that he's throwing off every month that he doesn't need, you can put that in some other passive investment, maybe some rental properties, or investing in some other companies or whatnot? What would you say to that? Todd: Well, I think right now, like I just said, I have, you know, my kids are young adults. So I've got three kids in college right now. And so the expenses are pretty high. And so, you know, I think it's gonna benefit us if I can go back to work, get a regular paycheck, and do this on the side. You know, I'm almost twice as good as I was seven months ago. Allen: Right, and how long do you plan on working? Todd: You know, I don't know, I think probably at least get the kids out of college, and then, and then reassess. Right? You know, what we're doing. But I think one of the, you know, one of the benefits of trading is, you know, you can continue to do this, eventually, I'll retire. And once the kids get out of college, I could retire, I could do this. And I could do this. I'm sure. You know, as long as my mind is good, and into my 70s. Right? So so the long term plan is, keep trading. And I'll continue doing is as long as I'm able. Allen: Are you going to continue to scale it, or are you going to take that money and put it somewhere else? Todd: Well, I'll continue to scale it as far as I can on the oil and then I think you reach a limit where you have to do something else. Allen: Well, I mean, you already said that, right? You're putting it into the other stocks and the other.. Todd: Yeah so I'll put it in other socks and also with a, you know, I can't turn I can't trade retirement accounts and in oil, so I could trade that with, you know, some of the other strategies. Allen: Okay. Now, let me let me ask you on a on a personal level, because a lot of people they say they want to trade for a living, they say they want to go full time, right? But when it comes down to it, they just can't make the change they they either take too much risk, or they trade too much they over trade the under trade, they don't follow the rules. How did you stay emotionally grounded with that much pressure because it it does go for, you know, it has a lot of pressure, where it's like, hey, I need to not only just not lose money, but I have to make a certain amount. Otherwise, you know, maybe the lights get cut off, or I don't make the car payment. How did you handle that emotional pressure? Todd: Right, right, you're right, there's some pressure there, I think that, you know, I'm pretty easy going person, I can handle some of that stress and some of that risk. But on the other hand, I think you have to have a little bit of capital to absorb some of the downturns and I'm in a position where I have that it's not that I want to lose it. But you know, if it came to it, I could, I could lose a little bit and absorb that for a month or two. Right. So I think that's how I went through it. And but uh, you know, it does get a little bit stressful when you when you have some money on the line and the market turns against you. You can't make knee jerk reactions, you'd have to, you know, kind of settle down and maybe turn it off for a little bit and reassess. So, you know, just by doing that is the way I was successful that to keep a level head and not get my emotions into it. So.. Allen: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. I mean, it's it's a really interesting story because you never hear that where it's like, Hey, you know, I learned a skill I'm doing great at it, but then I'm gonna do it part time and go back to you know, this my job. I've never I've seen people do it. But it's, it's something that nobody talks about, because it's like, you know, "I hate my job". "I can't wait to get out of here". You know, "I'm gonna go after you to my boss". You know, they have they actually have a term. It's called FU money. You know, it's like, when you make so much money, that you'd have to care what anybody else does or says to you. You could be like, I'm rich. I don't care. Todd: Well I'm not, I'm not there yet. And that's a problem. Allen: But you but it seems like you enjoy your job. Like, enjoy what you do? Todd: Yeah. My original career? Allen: Uh huh? Todd: Yeah, yeah. I enjoyed it. I mean, it was nice. You know, it's very nice. Getting involved in trading and, and, you know, making money this way. But, yeah, so I don't mind going back. And, you know, getting back into my old career. Allen: Okay, cool. So.. Alright, so if we were talking to Todd, eight months ago, what advice would you give him? Todd: Oh, you know, I really don't think I would do anything different. No, I would do something different. I would be more clear with my wife about what I was doing. I think that that was my biggest challenge. It was our largest challenge. And, you know, my wife wasn't really didn't want to take the time to understand what this was all about. And, you know, eventually I was able to explain it to her. And so she kind of came around, but, you know, it was she's just risk adverse. We didn't we don't have the same opinion. And I was probably didn't communicate enough with her and early enough. So yes, my advice would be communicate more with my wife and, and do it earlier and more often and clear. You could do that. So that was my biggest challenge really. Allen: Okay. So if there was somebody that came to you and asked you for your advice, like, hey, Todd, you know, you've had great success. You've been doing this for a while now, how do I do this? How do I get started? What would you tell? Todd: Yeah well, I was talking to a couple people, that would be my brothers. And they, you know, we got talking. And what I did is I said, hey, look up Allen's website, again, your website, and I said, you guys should do this. It's, you know, it's a way to get another income. So now two brothers that have signed up for your programs. So that's my initial advice - anyone who's interested.. Allen: And do you think that in terms of time, do you think three months was enough? Could you have done it sooner? Would it have taken longer? How did that feel? Todd: No, I think three months was enough time, I think, you know, speaking of another challenge was once you start making trades with your own money, because I did paper trading for I think a month. Once you start making trades with your own money, you know, you have to ease into it, because there's, there's really a mental capacity that you have to get used to and get over with. So for example, start with a start with a couple $1,000 trading, I think, you know, you probably need an account worth $10,000. But don't bet at all, you know, don't don't trade at all, leave a cushion. I think one of your rules is leave 50 to a minimum 30% out there to absorb fluctuations in the market. So I've done that and but Just like you said, don't overtrain don't get, don't do too much where you're uncomfortable with it. And it takes a couple months to kind of get used to that mentally. Allen: If you don't mind, how much did you start with? In your account? Todd: So I started with $40,000. Allen: Okay. Todd: And then I scaled that up to 100,000. Okay, eventually. Allen: Awesome. Awesome. Cool. Yeah. So you were okay with that risk? The 40,000? I mean, you know, obviously, you didn't use all of it at one time, but Todd: No, exactly. I've never used at all and, you know, I'm, what I'm comfortable with, I guess is that you're not risking all of that. You can control your risks a little bit more, and, you know, make adjustments. So you don't take on that enormous of a risk. Allen: And those of us who are well, not us, but others who are trying to do this, how did you handle the scaling? Like you started with 40? And then how did you know that? Okay, now I'm going to add more, I'm going to add more. Todd: Yeah. So once I got more comfortable with it, after about three months, I was just, I wanted to make more trades and, and my margin, I was pushing the limits of my margin. So I needed to add to my account. So that's the point that I added to my account, and then I kind of kept scaling up, but I kept enough margin reserve, you know, to be comfortable. So, you know, so I really scaled it up over, you know, a three month period, I guess. Allen: And when you started talking to your brothers, and I'm sure other people probably asked you, hey, Todd, you're not working? What are you doing all day long? And you told them? Well, I'm an option seller? What are they? How did they respond? Originally, in the beginning? Todd: Yeah, most people, I had to kind of educate what it was and what it was about. Yeah. And I think that my two brothers, and when I started talking about it, they actually knew people who were trading options, but they didn't know a whole lot more about it. And, you know, so I was able to educate them a little bit about what it's about, and I told them about my success that I was having, and then that got them more interested. So but yeah, for the majority of people, I typically have to tell them what it's about. And, you know, the difference between what stocks are and what options are, you know, options are a derivative of stocks are not the same. So really had to just educate them and some people got it. And some people, you know, weren't really interested in knowing more. Allen: Now, their eyes glaze over and they say that's too complicated, I don't care. I don't want to learn about it. Right. And I, you know, but everybody's different, everybody. So it's interesting, very few people have heard about it. So I mean, that's why we're trying to do the podcast, and thank you for coming on to spread the word. I think it's really important to hear from real people that are actually doing this real money real, you know, everything's on the line. We're not just doing back testing here, just coming up with strategies or theories. You're actually doing it every day, month in month out, and you've had a lot of success with it. So kudos to you. Congratulations. I hope that your wife eventually does come around. Right? Yeah, like mine. I mean, with mine, I guess, you know, eventually I got her her own business. Like she wanted to start her own business. And so I'm like, Yeah, sure. Let's do it. You know, and I'm like, okay, she's off my back now. So she's happy, she's running her thing. You know, she's making money there. So she doesn't even she doesn't even ask me anymore. Right? But because in the beginning, it was like, she would come home from work. And I if I had a, she'd look at my face. And she'd be like, "Oh, the markets up or the markets down today. Right? You look sad". And I'm like, "Yeah, the markets down today". You know, I'm sad. And then the next day, she come home, and I'd be sad. And she's like, "well, what happened? I checked the market, the market is up, you should be happy". I'm like, "Yeah, no, I'm sad because the markets up today", like every day, no matter what, I would still be sad in the beginning, while I was learning, so it was it was really a roller coaster for both of us. But I'm really happy that it didn't take you that long. For me, it took a little bit longer to actually understand everything and get through it and get to that point where "Yeah, okay, I'm making enough, you know, to pay all the bills", and it was a hard thing for me. Todd: Right? Well, and, you know, speak to my wife, she's a competent professional person herself. She's very successful. And it's our 26th wedding anniversary here this week so. Allen: Wow, congratulations. Todd: Yeah. But very proud of her. And, you know, we just got to get over this, this pump and move on. Allen: No, but you're doing great. I mean, look, the future is looking good. You added a skill. You know, now you have something under your belt, you're like you said it, you know, I could do this into my 70s we have people doing it into their 80s. So it and with all the technology and the health advancements that are coming down the pike, who knows maybe 100, 120 that will still be trading, you know, you never know. Todd: Right. So that's, it's a long term plan. Yeah. Allen: Yep. It's awesome. It's awesome. I love it. I love it. So any any final parting advice you'd give to our listeners? Todd: No just keep plugging away and, you know, keep track of your markets and your positions and don't over trade. So probably the best advice yeah. Allen: Awesome. Was there anything before you came to us? Were there any other stuff that you had tried that didn't work? Todd: No, I didn't. To tell you the truth. I, I was traveling a lot for my job. And I came across your podcast first. And so I was listening to your podcasts. While I was on the road that got me more interested. I was trying to look for something that, you know, could supplement my income. And so I got interested, and then eventually signed up for one of your programs. So no, I didn't try any other programs before I, you know, found yours. And, you know, I kind of checked it out and it looked like it was viable. And so, so that's how I got going. Allen: Awesome. Yeah. Great, great. Great, great to hear. Great to hear. I really appreciate you coming on. And you know, I wish you all the best of success. And, you know, you're in our program so if anybody wants to reach out to Todd, he'll be in our group. And thank you again for being here. Todd: Okay. Thanks, Allen. Allen: Hmm hmm Todd: All right. Take care.

01:09 - Todd's Superpower: Advocacy For Accessibility * Getting Started * Designing With Web Standards by Jeffrey Zeldman (https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Web-Standards-Jeffrey-Zeldman/dp/0321616952) * The A11Y Project (https://www.a11yproject.com/) * W3C (https://www.w3.org/) 06:18 - Joining The W3C * The W3C Community Page (https://www.w3.org/community/) 07:44 - Getting People/Companies/Stakeholders to Care/Prioritize About Accessibility * Making A Strong Case For Accessibility by Todd Libby (https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2021/07/strong-case-for-accessibility/) * Diplomatic Advocacy * You Don't Want To Get Sued! / $$$ * “We are all temporarily abled.” 15:20 - The Domino's Pizza Story * Supreme Court hands victory to blind man who sued Domino's over site accessibility (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/07/dominos-supreme-court.html) 18:21 - Things That Typically Aren't Accessible And Should Be * The WebAIM Million Report (https://webaim.org/projects/million/) * WCAG (https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/) * Color Contrast * Missing Alt Text on Images * Form Input Labels * What's New in WCAG 2.1: Label in Name by Todd Libby (https://css-tricks.com/whats-new-in-wcag-2-1-label-in-name/) * Empty Links * Not Using Document Language * Triggering GIFS / Flashing Content * Empty Buttons – Use a Button Element!! * Tab Order * Semantic HTML, Heading Structure 26:27 - Accessibility for Mobile Devices * Target Size * Looking at WCAG 2.5.5 for Better Target Sizes (https://css-tricks.com/looking-at-wcag-2-5-5-for-better-target-sizes/) * Dragging Movements 28:08 - Color Contrast * Contrast Ratio (https://contrast-ratio.com/) 33:02 - Designing w/ Accessibility in Mind From the Very Beginning * Accessibility Advocates on Every Team * Accessibility Training 36:22 - Contrast (Cont'd) 38:11 - Automating Accessibility! * axe-core-gems (https://github.com/dequelabs/axe-core-gems) Reflections: Mae: Eyeballing for contrast. John: We are all only temporarily abled and getting the ball rolling on building accessibility in from the beginning of projects going forward and fixing older codebases. Mandy: Using alt-tags going forward on all social media posts. Todd: Accessibility work will never end. Accessibility is a right not a privilege. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: JOHN: Welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 251. I'm John Sawers and I'm here with Mae Beale. MAE: Hi, there! And also, Mandy Moore. MANDY: Hi, everyone! I'm Mandy Moore and I'm here today with our guest, Todd Libby. Todd Libby is a professional web developer, designer, and accessibility advocate for 22 years under many different technologies starting with HTML/CSS, Perl, and PHP. Todd has been an avid learner of web technologies for over 40 years starting with many flavors of BASIC all the way to React/Vue. Currently an Accessibility Analyst at Knowbility, Todd is also a member of the W3C. When not coding, you'll usually find Todd tweeting about lobster rolls and accessibility. So before I ask you what your superpower is, I'm going to make a bet and my bet is that I'm 80% positive that your superpower has something to do with lobster rolls. Am I right? [laughter] Am I right? TODD: Well, 80% of the time, you'd be right. I just recently moved to Phoenix, Arizona. So I was actually going to say advocacy for accessibility, but yes, lobster rolls and the consumption of lobster rolls are a big part. MAE: I love it. That's fantastic. MANDY: Okay. Well, tell me about the advocacy. [chuckles] TODD: So it started with seeing family members who are disabled, friends who are disabled, or have family members themselves who are disabled, and the struggles they have with trying to access websites, or web apps on the web and the frustration, the look of like they're about ready to give up. That's when I knew that I would try to not only make my stuff that I made accessible, but to advocate for people in accessibility. MAE: Thank you so much for your work. It is critical. I have personally worked with a number of different populations and started at a camp for children with critical illnesses and currently work at an organization that offers financial services for people with disabilities – well, complex financial needs, which the three target populations that we work with are people with disabilities, people with dementia, and people in recovery. So really excited to talk with you today. Thanks. TODD: You're welcome. JOHN: When you started that journey, did you already have familiarity with accessibility, or was it all just like, “Oh, I get to learn all this stuff so I can start making it better”? TODD: So I fell into it because if you're like me and you started with making table-based layouts way back in the day, because what we had—Mosaic browser, Netscape Navigator, and Internet Explorer—we were making table-based layouts, which were completely inaccessible, but I didn't know that. As the web progressed, I progressed and then I bought a little orange book by Jeffrey Zeldman, Designing with Web Standards, and that pretty much started me on my journey—semantic HTML, progressive enhancement in web standards, and accessibility as well. I tend to stumble into a lot of stuff [laughs] so, and that's a habit of mine. [laughs] MAE: It sounds like it's a good habit and you're using it to help all the other people. So I hate to encourage you to keep stumbling, but by all means. [laughter] Love it. If you were to advise someone wanting to know more about accessibility, would you suggest they start with that same book too, or what would you suggest to someone stumbling around in the dark and not hitting anything yet? TODD: The book is a little outdated. I think the last edition of his book was, I want to say 2018, maybe even further back than that. I would suggest people go on websites like The A11Y project, the a11yproject.com. They have a comprehensive list of resources, links to learning there. Twitter is a good place to learn, to follow people in the accessibility space. The other thing that, if people really want to dive in, is to join The W3C. That's a great place and there's a lot of different groups. You have the CSS Working Group, you have the accessibility side of things, which I'm a part of, the Silver Community Group, which is we're working on the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 3.0, which is still a little ways down the road, but a lot of great people and a lot of different companies. Some of those companies we've heard of—Google, Apple, companies like that all the way down to individuals. Individuals can join as individuals if your company isn't a member of the W3C. So those are the three things that I mainly point to people. If you don't really want to dive into the W3C side of things, there's a lot of resources on the a11yproject.com website that you can look up. MANDY: So what does being a member entail? What do you have to do? Do you have to pay dues? Do you have to do certain projects, maybe start as an individual level, because I'm sure we have mostly individuals listening to the show. Me as a newbie coder, what would I do to get started as a member of this initiative? TODD: Well, I started out as an individual myself, so I joined and I can get you the link to The W3C Community Page. Go to sign up as an individual and someone will approve the form process that you go through—it's nothing too big, it's nothing complicated—and then that will start you on your way. You can join a sub group, you can join a group, a working group, and it doesn't cost an individual. Companies do pay dues to the W3C and if your company is in the W3C, you get ahold of your company's liaison and there's a process they go through to add you to a certain group. Because with me, it was adding me to The Silver Community Group. But as an individual, you can join in, you can hop right into a meeting from there, and then that's basically it. That's how you start. JOHN: What are the challenges you see in getting not only the goals of a W3C, but I'm assuming specifically around accessibility? TODD: Some of the things that I've seen is buy-in from stakeholders is probably the number one hurdle, or barrier. Companies, stakeholders, and board members, they don't think of, or in some cases, they don't care about accessibility until a company is getting sued and that's a shame. That's one of the things that I wrote about; I have an article on Smashing Magazine. Making A Strong Case for Accessibility, it's called and that is one of few things that I've come across. Getting buy-in from stakeholders and getting buy-in from colleagues as well because you have people that they don't think about accessibility, they think about a number of different things. Mostly what I've come across is they don't think about accessibility because there's no budget, or they don't have the time, or the company doesn't have the time. It's not approved by the company. The other thing that is right up there is it's a process—accessibility—making things accessible and most people think that it's a big this huge mountain to climb. If you incorporate accessibility from the beginning of your project, it's so much easier. You don't have to go back and you don't have to climb that mountain because you've waited until the very end. “Oh, we have time now so we'll do the accessibility stuff,” that makes it more hard. MAE: John, your question actually was similar to something I was thinking about with how you developed this superpower and I was going to ask and still will now. [chuckles] How did you afford all the time in the different places where you were overtime to be able to get this focus? And so, how did you make the case along the way and what things did you learn in that persuasion class of life [chuckles] that was able to allow you to have that be where you could focus and spend more time on and have the places where you work prioritize successful? TODD: It was a lot of, I call it diplomatic advocacy. So for instance, the best example I have is I had been hired to make a website, a public facing website, and a SAAS application accessible. The stakeholder I was directly reporting to, we were sitting down in a meeting one day and I said, “Well, I want to make sure that accessibility is the number one priority on these projects,” and he shot back with, “Well, we don't have the disabled users,” and that nearly knocked me back to my chair. [laughs] So that was a surprise. MAE: There's some groaning inside and I had to [chuckles] do it out loud for a moment. Ooh. TODD: Yeah, I did my internal groaning at the meeting so that just was – [chuckles] Yeah, and I remember that day very vividly and I probably will for the rest of my life that I looked at him and I had to stop and think, and I said, “Well, you never know, there's always a chance that you're able, now you could be disabled at any time.” I also pointed out that his eyeglasses that he wore are an assistive technology. So there was some light shed on that and that propelled me even further into advocacy and the accessibility side of things. That meeting really opened my eyes to not everyone is going to get it, not everyone is going to be on board, not everyone is going to think about disabled users; they really aren't. So from there I used that example. I also use what I call the Domino's Pizza card lately because “Oh, you don't want to get sued.' That's my last resort as far as advocacy goes. Other than that, it's showing a videotape of people using their product that are disabled and they can't use it. That's a huge difference maker, when a stakeholder sees that somebody can't use their product. There's numbers out there now that disabled users in this country alone, the United States, make up 25% of the population, I believe. They have a disposable income of $8 trillion. The visually disabled population alone is, I believe it was $1.6 billion, I think. I would have to check that number again, but it's a big number. So the money side of things really gets through to a stakeholder faster than “Well, your eyeglasses are a assistive technology.” So once they hear the financial side of things, their ears perk up real quick and then they maybe get on board. I've never had other than one stakeholder just saying, “No, we're just going to skip that,” and then that company ended up getting sued. So that says a lot, to me anyways. But that's how I really get into it. And then there was a time where I was working for another company. I was doing consulting for them and I was doing frontend mostly. So it was accessibility, but also at the same time, it was more the code side of things. That was in 2018. 2019, I went to a conference in Burlington, Vermont. I saw a friend of mine speaking and he was very passionate about it and that talk, and there was a couple others there as well, it lit that fire under me again, and I jumped right back in and ever since then, it's just then accessibility. MAE: You reminded me one of the arguments, or what did you say? Diplomatic advocacy statements that I have used is that we are all temporarily abled. [chuckles] Like, that's just how it is and seeing things that way we can really shift how you orient to the idea of as other and reduce the othering. But I was also wondering how long it would be before Pizza Hut came up in our combo. [laughter] MANDY: Yeah, I haven't heard of that. Can you tell us what that is? TODD: [chuckles] So it was Domino's and they had a blind user that tried to use their app. He couldn't use their app; their app wasn't accessible. He tried to use the website; the website wasn't accessible. I have a link that I can send over to the whole story because I'm probably getting bits and pieces wrong. But from what I can recall, basically, this user sued Domino's and instead of Domino's spending, I believe it was $36,000 to fix their website and their app, they decided to drag it out for a number of years through court and of course, spent more money than just $36,000. In the end, they lost. I think they tried to appeal to the Supreme Court because they've gone up as high as federal court, but regardless, they lost. They had to – and I don't know if they still have an inaccessible site, or not, or the app for that matter because I don't go to Domino's. But that's basically the story that they had; a user who tried to access the app and the website, couldn't use it, and they got taken to court. Now Domino's claimed, in the court case, that he could have used the telephone, but he had tried to use the telephone twice and was on hold for 45 minutes. So [laughs] that says a lot. JOHN: Looks like it actually did go to the Supreme Court. TODD: Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, I think they did not want to hear it. They just said, “No, we're not going to hear the case.” Yeah, and just think about all these apps we use and all the people that can't access those apps, or the websites. I went to some company websites because I was doing some research, big companies, and a lot of them are inaccessible. A little number that I can throw out there: every year, there's been a little over 2,500 lawsuits in the US. This year, if the rate keeps on going that it has, we're on course for over 4,000 lawsuits in the US alone for inaccessible websites. You've had companies like Target, Bank of America, Winn-Dixie, those kinds of companies have been sued by people because of inaccessible sites. MAE: Okay, but may I say this one thing, which is, I just want to extend my apologies to Pizza Hut. [laughter] MANDY: What kinds of things do you see as not being accessible that should be or easily could be that companies just simply aren't doing? TODD: The big one, still and if you go to webaim.org/projects/million, it's The WebAIM Million report. It's an annual accessibility analysis of the top 1 million home pages on the internet. The number one thing again, this year is color contracts. There are guidelines in place. WCAG, which is the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, that text should be a 4.5:1 ratio that reaches the minimum contrast for texts. It's a lot of texts out there that doesn't even reach that. So it's color contrast. You'll find a lot of, if you look at—I'm looking at the chart right now—missing alt texts on images. If you have an image that is informative, or you have an image that is conveying something to a user, it has to have alternative text describing what's in the picture. You don't have to go into a long story about what's in the picture and describe it thoroughly; you can just give a quick overview as to what the picture is trying to convey, what is in the picture. And then another one being another failure type a is form input labels; labels that are not labeled correctly. I wrote a article about that [chuckles] on CSS-Tricks and that is, there's programmatic and there's accessible names for form labels that not only help the accessibility side of it, as far as making the site accessible, but also it helps screen reader users read forms and navigate through forms, keyboard users also. Then you have empty links and then a big one that I've seen lately is if you look up in the source code, you see the HTML tag, and the language attribute, a lot of sites now, because they use trademarks, they don't have a document language. I ran across a lot of sites that don't use a document language. They're using a framework. I won't name names because I'm not out to shame, but having that attribute helps screen reader users and I think that's a big thing. A lot of accessibility, people don't understand. People use screen readers, or other assistive technologies, for instance, Dragon NaturallySpeaking voice input. But at the same time, I've got to also add accessibility is more than just deaf, or blind. I suffer from migraines, migraine headaches so animation, or motion from say, parallax scrolling can trigger a migraine. Animations that are too fast, that also trigger migraine headache. You have flashing content that can potentially cause seizures and that's actually happened before where an animated GIF was intentionally sent to someone and it caused a seizure and almost killed the person. So there's those and then the last thing on this list that I'm looking at right now, and these are common failures, empty buttons. You have buttons that don't have labels. Buttons that have Click here. Buttons need to be descriptive. So you want to have – on my site to send me something on the contact form, it's Send this info to Todd, Click here, or something similar like that. MAE: Can you think of any, John that you know of, too? I've got a couple of mind. How about you, Mandy? MANDY: For me, because I'm just starting out, I don't know a whole lot about accessibility. That's why I'm here; I'm trying to learn. But I am really conscious and careful of some of the GIFs that I use, because I do know that some of the motion ones, especially really fast-moving ones, can cause problems, migraines, seizures for people. So when posting those, I'm really, really mindful about it. JOHN: Yeah, the Click here one is always bothers me too, because not only is it bad accessibility, it's bad UX. Like HTML loves you to turn anything into a link so you can make all the words inside the button and it's just fine. [laughs] There's so many other ways to do it that are just – even discounting the accessibility impact, which I don't want it. TODD: Yeah, and touching upon that, I'm glad you brought up the button because I was just going to let that go [chuckles] past me. I have to say and I think it was in the email where it said, “What's bothering you?” What bothers me is people that don't use the button. If you are using a div, or an anchor tag, or a span, stop it. [laughs] Just stop it. There's a button element for that. I read somewhere that anchor tag takes you somewhere, a div is a container, but button is for a button. MAE: I love that. The only other ones I could think of is related to something you said, making sure to have tab order set up properly to allow people to navigate. Again, I liked your point about you don't have to be fully blind to benefit from these things and having keyboard accessibility can benefit a lot of people for all kinds of reasons. The other one is, and I would love to hear everybody's thoughts on this one, I have heard that we're supposed to be using h1, h2, h3 and having proper setup of our HTML and most of us fail just in that basic part. That's another way of supporting people to be able to navigate around and figure out what's about to be on this page and how much should I dig into it? So more on non-visual navigation stuff. TODD: Yeah, heading structure is hugely important for keyboard users and screen reader users as well as tab order and that's where semantic HTML comes into play. If you're running semantic HTML, HTML by default, save for a few caveats, is accessible right out of the box. If your site and somebody can navigate through using let's say, the keyboard turns and they can navigate in a way that is structurally logical, for instance and it has a flow to it that makes sense, then they're going to be able to not only navigate that site, but if you're selling something on that site, you're going to have somebody buying something probably. So that's again, where tab order and heading structure comes into play and it's very important. JOHN: I would assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, or if you know this, that the same sort of accessibility enhancements are available in native mobile applications that aren't using each HTML, is that correct? TODD: Having not delved into the mobile side of things with apps myself, that I really can't answer. I can say, though, that the WCAG guidelines, that does pertain to mobile as well as desktop. There's no certain set of rules. 2.2 is where there are some new features that from mobile, for instance, target size and again, I wrote another article on CSS-Tricks about target size as well. So it's if you ever noticed those little ads that you just want to click off and get off your phone and they have those little tiny Xs and you're sitting there tapping all day? Those are the things target size and dragging movements as well. I did an audit for an app and there was a lot of buttons that were not named. A lot of the accessibility issues I ran into were the same as I would run into doing an audit on a website. I don't know anything about Swift, or Flutter, or anything like that, they pretty much fall into the same category with [inaudible] as far as accessible. JOHN: I also wanted to circle back on the first item that you listed as far as the WebAIM million thing was color contrast, which is one of those ones where a designer comes up with something that looks super cool and sleek, but it's dark gray on a light gray background. It looks great when you've got perfect eyesight, but anybody else, they're just like, “Oh my God, what's that?” That's also one of the things that's probably easiest to change site-wide; it's like you go in and you tweak the CSS and you're done in a half hour and you've got the whole site updated. So it's a great bit of low-hanging fruit that you can attach if you want to start on this process. TODD: Yeah. Color contrast is of course, as the report says, this is the number one thing and let me look back here. It's slowly, the numbers are dropping, but 85.3%, that's still a very high number of failures and there's larger text. If you're using anything over 18 pixels, or the equivalent of 18—it's either 18 points, or 18 pixels—is a 3:1 ratio. With that color contrast is how our brains perceive color. It's not the actual contrast of that color and there are people far more qualified than me going to that, or that can go into that. So what I'll say is I've seen a lot of teams and companies, “Yeah, we'll do a little over 4.5:1 and we'll call it a day.” But I always say, if you can do 7:1, or even 10:1 on your ratios and you can find a way to make your brand, or whatever the same, then go for it. A lot of the time you hear, “Well, we don't want to change the colors of our brand.” Well, your colors of your brand aren't accessible to somebody who that has, for instance, Tritanopia, which is, I think it's blues and greens are very hard to see, or they don't see it at all. Color deficiencies are a thing that design teams aren't going to check for. They're just not. Like you said, all these colors look awesome so let's just, we're going to go with that on our UI. That's one thing that I actually ran into on that SAAS product that I spoke about earlier was there was these colors and these colors were a dark blue, very muted dark blue with orange text. You would think the contrast would be oh yeah, they would be all right, but it was horrible. JOHN: You can get browser plugins, that'll show you what the page looks like. So you can check these things yourself. Like you can go in and say, “Oh, you're right. That's completely illegible.” TODD: Yeah. Firefox, like I have right here on my work machine. I have right here Firefox and it does this. There's a simulator for a visual color deficiencies. It also checks for contrast as well. Chrome has one, which it actually has a very cool eyedropper to check for color contrast. If you use the inspector also in Firefox, that brings up a little contrast thing. The WAVE extension has a contrast tool. There's also a lot of different apps. If you have a Mac, like I do, I have too many color contrast because I love checking out these color contrast apps. So I have about five different color contrast apps on my Mac, but there's also websites, too that you can use at the same time. Just do a search for polar contrast. Contrast Ratio, contrast-ratio.com, is from Lea Verou. I use that one a lot. A lot of people use that one. There's so many of them out there choose from, but they are very handy tool at designer's disposal and at developers' disposal as well. JOHN: So I'm trying to think of, like I was saying earlier, the color contrast one is one of those things that's probably very straightforward; you can upgrade your whole site in a short amount of time. Color contrast is a little trickier because it gets into branding and marketing's going to want to care about it and all that kind of stuff. So you might have a bit more battle around that, but it could probably be done and you might be able to fix, at least the worst parts of the page that have problems around that. So I'm just trying to think of the ways that you could get the ball rolling on this kind of a work. Like if you can get those early easy wins, it's going to get more people on board with the process and not saying like, “Oh, it's going to take us eight months and we have to go through every single page and change it every forum.” That sounds really daunting when you think about it and so, trying to imagine what those easy early wins are that can get people down that road. TODD: Yeah. Starting from the very outset of the project is probably the key one: incorporating accessibility from the start of the project. Like I said earlier, it's a lot easier when you do it from the start rather than waiting till the very end, or even after the product has been launched and you go back and go, “Oh, well, now we need to fix it.” You're not only putting stress on your teams, but it's eating up time and money because you're now paying everybody to go back and look at all these accessibility issues there. Having one person as a dedicated accessibility advocate on each team helps immensely. So you have one person on the development team, one person on the dev side, one person on the marketing team, starting from the top. If somebody goes there to a stakeholder and says, “Listen, we need to start incorporating accessibility from the very start, here's why,” Nine times out of ten, I can guarantee you, you're probably going to get that stakeholder onboard. That tenth time, you'll have to go as far as maybe I did and say, “Well, Domino's Pizza, or Bank of America, or Target.” Again, their ears are going to perk up and they're going to go, “Oh, well, I don't really, we don't want to get sued.” So that, and going back to having one person on each team: training. There are so many resources out there for accessibility training. There are companies out there that train, there are companies that you can bring in to the organization that will train, that'll help train. That's so easier than what are we going to do? A lot of people just sitting there in a room and go, “How are you going to do this?” Having that person in each department getting together with everybody else, that's that advocate for each department, meeting up and saying, “Okay, we're going to coordinate. You're going to put out a fantastic product that's going to be accessible and also, at the same time, the financial aspect is going to make the company money. But most of all, it's going to include a lot of people that are normally not included if you're putting out an accessible product.” Because if you go to a certain website, I can guarantee you it's going to be inaccessible—just about 99% of the web isn't accessible—and it's going to be exclusive as it's going to – somebody is going to get shut out of the site, or app. So this falls on the applications as well. Another thing too, I just wanted to throw in here for color contrast. There are different – you have color contrast text, but you also have non-text contrast, you have texts in images, that kind of contrast as well and it does get a little confusing. Let's face it, the guidelines right now, it's a very technically written – it's like a technical manual. A lot of people come up to me and said, “I can't read this. I can't make sense of this. Can you translate this?” So hopefully, and this is part of the work that I'm doing with a lot of other people in the W3C is where making the language of 3.0 in plain language, basically. It's going to be a lot easier to understand these guidelines instead of all that technical jargon. I look at something right now and I'm scratching my head when I'm doing an audit going, “Okay, what do they mean by this?” All these people come together and we agree on what to write. What is the language that's going to go into this? So when they got together 2.0, which was years and years ago, they said, “Okay, this is going to be how we're going to write this and we're going to publish this,” and then we had a lot of people just like me scratching their heads of not understanding it. So hopefully, and I'm pretty sure, 99.9% sure that it's going to be a lot easier for people to understand. MAE: That sounds awesome. And if you end up needing a bunch of play testers, I bet a lot of our listeners would be totally willing to put in some time. I know I would. Just want to put in one last plug for anybody out there who really loves automating things and is trying to avoid relying on any single developer, or designer, or QA person to remember to check for accessibility is to build it into your CI/CD pipeline. There are a lot of different options. Another approach to couple with that, or do independently is to use the axe core gems, and that link will be in the show notes, where it'll allow you to be able to sprinkle in your tests, accessibility checks on different pieces. So if we've decided we're going to handle color contrast, cool, then it'll check that. But if we're not ready to deal with another point of accessibility, then we can skip it. So it's very similar to Robocop. Anyway, just wanted to offer in some other tips and tricks of the trade to be able to get going on accessibility and then once you get that train rolling, it can do a little better, but it is hard to start from scratch. JOHN: That's a great tip, Mae. Thank you. TODD: Yeah, definitely. MANDY: Okay. Well, with that, I think it's about time we head into reflections; the point of the show, where we talk about something that we thought stood out, that we want to think about more, or a place that we can call for a call of action to our listeners, or even to ourselves. Who wants to go first? MAE: I can go first. I learned something awesome from you, Todd, which I have not thought of before, which is if I am eyeballing for “contrast,” especially color contrast, that's not necessarily what that means. I really appreciate learning that and we'll definitely be applying that in my daily life. [chuckles] So thanks for teaching me a whole bunch of things, including that. TODD: You're welcome. JOHN: I think for me, it's just the continuing reminder to – I do like the thinking that, I think Mae have brought up and also Todd was talking about earlier at the beginning about how we're all of us temporarily not disabled and that I think it helps bring some of that empathy a little closer to us. So it makes it a little more accessible to us to realize that it's going to happen to us at some point, at some level, and to help then bring that empathy to the other people who are currently in that state and really that's, I think is a useful way of thinking about it. Also, the idea that I've been thinking through as we've been talking about this is how do we get the ball rolling on this? We have an existing application that's 10 years old that's going to take a lot to get it there, but how do we get the process started so we feel like we're making progress there rather than just saying, “Oh, we did HTML form 27 out of 163. All right, back at it tomorrow.” It's hard to think about, so feeling like there's progress is a good thing. TODD: Yeah, definitely and as we get older, our eyes, they're one of the first things to go. So I'm going to need assistive technology at some point so, yeah. And then what you touched upon, John. It may be daunting having to go back and do the whole, “Okay, what are we going to do for accessibility now that this project, it's 10 years old, 15 years old?” The SAAS project that I was talking about, it was 15-year-old code, .net. I got people together; one from each department. We all got together and we ended up making that product accessible for them. So it can be done. [laughs] It can be done. JOHN: That's actually a good point. Just hearing about successes in the wild with particularly hard projects is a great thing. Because again, I'm thinking about it at the start of our project and hearing that somebody made it all through and maybe even repeatedly is hard. TODD: Yeah. It's not something that once it's done, it's done. Accessibility, just like the web, is an ever-evolving media. MANDY: For me. I think my reflection is going to be, as a new coder, I do want to say, I'm glad that we talked about a lot of the things that you see that aren't currently accessible that can be accessible. One of those things is using alt tags and right now, I know when I put the social media posts out on Twitter, I don't use the alt tags and I should. So just putting an alt tag saying, “This is a picture of our guest, Todd” and the title of the show would probably be helpful for some of our listeners. So I'm going to start doing that. So thank you. TODD: You're welcome. I'm just reminded of our talk and every talk that I have on a podcast, or with anybody just reminds me of the work that I have to do and the work that is being done by a lot of different people, other than myself as well, as far as advocacy goes in that I don't think it's ever going to be a job that will ever go away. There will always be a need for accessibility advocacy for the web and it's great just to be able to sit down and talk to people about accessibility and what we need to do to make the web better and more inclusive for everybody. Because I tweet out a lot, “Accessibility is a right, not a privilege,” and I really feel that to my core because the UN specifically says that the internet is a basic human and I went as far as to go say, “Well, so as an accessibility of that internet as well.” So that is my reflection. MAE: I'll add an alt tag for me right now is with a fist up and a big smile and a lot of enthusiasm in my heart. MANDY: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Todd. It's been really great talking with you and I really appreciate you coming on the show to share with us your knowledge and your expertise on the subject of accessibility. So with that, I will close out the show and say we do have a Slack and Todd will be invited to it if he'd like to talk more to us and the rest of the Greater Than Code community. You can visit patreon.com/greaterthancode and pledge to support us monthly and again, if you cannot afford that, or do not want to pledge to help run the show, you can DM anyone of us and we will get you in there for free because we want to make the Slack channel accessible for all. Have a great week and we'll see you next time. Goodbye! Special Guest: Todd Libby.

Todd: OK, Yoko we were just at a festival.Yoko: Yeah!Todd: Do you want to talk about festivals in Japan?Yoko: Yes, OK. So, I think in Fall we have lots of kind of festivals, but it depends on the places.Todd: What are some things that most festivals have, like, what can you see if you go to a Japanese festival?Yoko: Omikoshi.Todd: Omikoshi.Yoko: Yes. Do you know the word?Todd: I think so. What is Omikoshi?Yoko: Ah, it's really difficult for me to explain in English, but Omokishi looks like a bigbox, lots of people, adult people try to carry together, and they usually go to temples, and they kind of celebrate a harvest or our happiness or those kind of thingsTodd: OK. Do you ever carry the Omikoshi?Yoko: Ah, you know, I'm not a strong guy so, I've never tried it.Todd: OK. What about foods? What kind of foods do people like to eat?Yoko: We can see lots of small shops along the street and we can buy really Japanese food, like watagashi, it's a really sweet candy but it looks like, how do you say that?Todd: I don't know.Yoko: I don't know. I don't know either. White small stuff.Todd: White small stuff.Yoko: Yeah. Sorry. You should see it. So it's watagashi or watame. It's really popular food in matsuri, and we can see okonomiyaki. Yeah, it's, some people say Japanese pancake, or something, but tastes different.Yoko: It's not sweet.Todd: It's not sweet.Yoko: It's not sweet. So vegetables, meat, and some sauce.Todd: Oh, wow! Sounds good.Yoko: Yeah, I think so too. You should try it.

Todd: OK, Yoko we were just at a festival.Yoko: Yeah!Todd: Do you want to talk about festivals in Japan?Yoko: Yes, OK. So, I think in Fall we have lots of kind of festivals, but it depends on the places.Todd: What are some things that most festivals have, like, what can you see if you go to a Japanese festival?Yoko: Omikoshi.Todd: Omikoshi.Yoko: Yes. Do you know the word?Todd: I think so. What is Omikoshi?Yoko: Ah, it's really difficult for me to explain in English, but Omokishi looks like a bigbox, lots of people, adult people try to carry together, and they usually go to temples, and they kind of celebrate a harvest or our happiness or those kind of thingsTodd: OK. Do you ever carry the Omikoshi?Yoko: Ah, you know, I'm not a strong guy so, I've never tried it.Todd: OK. What about foods? What kind of foods do people like to eat?Yoko: We can see lots of small shops along the street and we can buy really Japanese food, like watagashi, it's a really sweet candy but it looks like, how do you say that?Todd: I don't know.Yoko: I don't know. I don't know either. White small stuff.Todd: White small stuff.Yoko: Yeah. Sorry. You should see it. So it's watagashi or watame. It's really popular food in matsuri, and we can see okonomiyaki. Yeah, it's, some people say Japanese pancake, or something, but tastes different.Yoko: It's not sweet.Todd: It's not sweet.Yoko: It's not sweet. So vegetables, meat, and some sauce.Todd: Oh, wow! Sounds good.Yoko: Yeah, I think so too. You should try it.

Todd: OK, Yoko we were just at a festival.Yoko: Yeah!Todd: Do you want to talk about festivals in Japan?Yoko: Yes, OK. So, I think in Fall we have lots of kind of festivals, but it depends on the places.Todd: What are some things that most festivals have, like, what can you see if you go to a Japanese festival?Yoko: Omikoshi.Todd: Omikoshi.Yoko: Yes. Do you know the word?Todd: I think so. What is Omikoshi?Yoko: Ah, it's really difficult for me to explain in English, but Omokishi looks like a bigbox, lots of people, adult people try to carry together, and they usually go to temples, and they kind of celebrate a harvest or our happiness or those kind of thingsTodd: OK. Do you ever carry the Omikoshi?Yoko: Ah, you know, I'm not a strong guy so, I've never tried it.Todd: OK. What about foods? What kind of foods do people like to eat?Yoko: We can see lots of small shops along the street and we can buy really Japanese food, like watagashi, it's a really sweet candy but it looks like, how do you say that?Todd: I don't know.Yoko: I don't know. I don't know either. White small stuff.Todd: White small stuff.Yoko: Yeah. Sorry. You should see it. So it's watagashi or watame. It's really popular food in matsuri, and we can see okonomiyaki. Yeah, it's, some people say Japanese pancake, or something, but tastes different.Yoko: It's not sweet.Todd: It's not sweet.Yoko: It's not sweet. So vegetables, meat, and some sauce.Todd: Oh, wow! Sounds good.Yoko: Yeah, I think so too. You should try it.

Todd: OK, Yoko!Yoko: Hi!Todd: We're going to talk about your trip to America.Yoko: Trip to America. OK.Todd: OK. When did you go to the U.S.?Yoko: It's about 4 years ago.Todd: And what did you do?Yoko: Actually, I went to Michigan and I worked as a volunteer teacher in public school.Todd: OK. What was the public school like?Yoko: It was not big, and so it was not big. I don't know how to say that, so what should I say....Todd: It was just a small school?Yoko: Yeah. Small school. So only maybe 200 students I think.Todd: Oh, really!Yoko: Yeah, it was really small.Todd: Wow, that is small.Yoko: Yeah, yeah.Todd: Did you know all the students?Yoko: I don't think so. I just visited some classes. Yes.Todd: So what did you think of America?Yoko: I think it is a great country for many people who wants to try new things.Todd: OKYoko: You know, so for example I did not have any special skills to teach, but they let me to work there as a volunteer, and they gave me a great oppurtunity to meet a lot of students, who are really nice I think.Todd: Ah, OK. I agree. What were your students like?Yoko: They were really motivated to learn Japanese, but they didn't learn a lot. They just, they just wanted to play with me, from other countries. Who is from, sorry!Todd: OK. Do you have any special memories from your trip?Yoko: Yes, I visited lots of places by myself and I was really afraid of speaking English to people there but they tried to understand me, and they helped me a lot and I really think OK, they are lots of people who are nice all over the world.

Todd: OK, Yoko!Yoko: Hi!Todd: We're going to talk about your trip to America.Yoko: Trip to America. OK.Todd: OK. When did you go to the U.S.?Yoko: It's about 4 years ago.Todd: And what did you do?Yoko: Actually, I went to Michigan and I worked as a volunteer teacher in public school.Todd: OK. What was the public school like?Yoko: It was not big, and so it was not big. I don't know how to say that, so what should I say....Todd: It was just a small school?Yoko: Yeah. Small school. So only maybe 200 students I think.Todd: Oh, really!Yoko: Yeah, it was really small.Todd: Wow, that is small.Yoko: Yeah, yeah.Todd: Did you know all the students?Yoko: I don't think so. I just visited some classes. Yes.Todd: So what did you think of America?Yoko: I think it is a great country for many people who wants to try new things.Todd: OKYoko: You know, so for example I did not have any special skills to teach, but they let me to work there as a volunteer, and they gave me a great oppurtunity to meet a lot of students, who are really nice I think.Todd: Ah, OK. I agree. What were your students like?Yoko: They were really motivated to learn Japanese, but they didn't learn a lot. They just, they just wanted to play with me, from other countries. Who is from, sorry!Todd: OK. Do you have any special memories from your trip?Yoko: Yes, I visited lots of places by myself and I was really afraid of speaking English to people there but they tried to understand me, and they helped me a lot and I really think OK, they are lots of people who are nice all over the world.

Todd: OK, Yoko!Yoko: Hi!Todd: We're going to talk about your trip to America.Yoko: Trip to America. OK.Todd: OK. When did you go to the U.S.?Yoko: It's about 4 years ago.Todd: And what did you do?Yoko: Actually, I went to Michigan and I worked as a volunteer teacher in public school.Todd: OK. What was the public school like?Yoko: It was not big, and so it was not big. I don't know how to say that, so what should I say....Todd: It was just a small school?Yoko: Yeah. Small school. So only maybe 200 students I think.Todd: Oh, really!Yoko: Yeah, it was really small.Todd: Wow, that is small.Yoko: Yeah, yeah.Todd: Did you know all the students?Yoko: I don't think so. I just visited some classes. Yes.Todd: So what did you think of America?Yoko: I think it is a great country for many people who wants to try new things.Todd: OKYoko: You know, so for example I did not have any special skills to teach, but they let me to work there as a volunteer, and they gave me a great oppurtunity to meet a lot of students, who are really nice I think.Todd: Ah, OK. I agree. What were your students like?Yoko: They were really motivated to learn Japanese, but they didn't learn a lot. They just, they just wanted to play with me, from other countries. Who is from, sorry!Todd: OK. Do you have any special memories from your trip?Yoko: Yes, I visited lots of places by myself and I was really afraid of speaking English to people there but they tried to understand me, and they helped me a lot and I really think OK, they are lots of people who are nice all over the world.

Todd: All right. Tennessee, you were talking about how you like movies.Tenn: Yes, I'm a big movie buff.Todd: OK. What kind of movies do you like?Tenn: I kind of like most genres of movies. It's just-- what I look for is a good story and good characters is the main thing. So even if I like the genre, if like whether it be science fiction or historical drama, if the story isn't good then I don't like it at all.Todd: OK. Off the top of your head, what's a movie that you really liked?Tenn: Well, the Lord Of the Rings they've been doing I really have enjoyed.Todd: Uh-huh.Tenn: They did a good job.Todd: Did you read the books?Tenn: Oh, yes! It was one of the first adult books I've read when I was in elementary school.Todd: OK. Well, what is the last movie you saw?Tenn: The last movie I saw, Pirates of the Caribbean.Todd: OK. Was it any good?Tenn: Ah, it wasn't bad.Todd: It wasn't bad.Tenn: Yeah.Todd: Alright, thanks a lot.Tenn: I like pirates.Todd: You like pirates. What? You like pirates?Tenn: Oh, yeah! You know, when you're a kid, pirates is the thing to be.Todd: Yeah!Tenn: Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum!Todd: OK. All right. Thanks, Tennessee.Tenn: OK.

Todd: All right. Tennessee, you were talking about how you like movies.Tenn: Yes, I'm a big movie buff.Todd: OK. What kind of movies do you like?Tenn: I kind of like most genres of movies. It's just-- what I look for is a good story and good characters is the main thing. So even if I like the genre, if like whether it be science fiction or historical drama, if the story isn't good then I don't like it at all.Todd: OK. Off the top of your head, what's a movie that you really liked?Tenn: Well, the Lord Of the Rings they've been doing I really have enjoyed.Todd: Uh-huh.Tenn: They did a good job.Todd: Did you read the books?Tenn: Oh, yes! It was one of the first adult books I've read when I was in elementary school.Todd: OK. Well, what is the last movie you saw?Tenn: The last movie I saw, Pirates of the Caribbean.Todd: OK. Was it any good?Tenn: Ah, it wasn't bad.Todd: It wasn't bad.Tenn: Yeah.Todd: Alright, thanks a lot.Tenn: I like pirates.Todd: You like pirates. What? You like pirates?Tenn: Oh, yeah! You know, when you're a kid, pirates is the thing to be.Todd: Yeah!Tenn: Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum!Todd: OK. All right. Thanks, Tennessee.Tenn: OK.

Todd: All right. Tennessee, you were talking about how you like movies.Tenn: Yes, I'm a big movie buff.Todd: OK. What kind of movies do you like?Tenn: I kind of like most genres of movies. It's just-- what I look for is a good story and good characters is the main thing. So even if I like the genre, if like whether it be science fiction or historical drama, if the story isn't good then I don't like it at all.Todd: OK. Off the top of your head, what's a movie that you really liked?Tenn: Well, the Lord Of the Rings they've been doing I really have enjoyed.Todd: Uh-huh.Tenn: They did a good job.Todd: Did you read the books?Tenn: Oh, yes! It was one of the first adult books I've read when I was in elementary school.Todd: OK. Well, what is the last movie you saw?Tenn: The last movie I saw, Pirates of the Caribbean.Todd: OK. Was it any good?Tenn: Ah, it wasn't bad.Todd: It wasn't bad.Tenn: Yeah.Todd: Alright, thanks a lot.Tenn: I like pirates.Todd: You like pirates. What? You like pirates?Tenn: Oh, yeah! You know, when you're a kid, pirates is the thing to be.Todd: Yeah!Tenn: Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum!Todd: OK. All right. Thanks, Tennessee.Tenn: OK.

Todd: OK. Victor, tomorrow you're flying home?Victor: Yes, that's correct.Todd: OK. So, are you afraid of flying?Victor: No, flying's fine.Todd: Really? Back home for your job, do you fly?Victor: No, I drive to work and to different assignments.Todd: OK. You never have to fly to go to conventions or other cities or stuff like that?Victor: Once or twice each year I do fly to go to conventions connected with my work.Todd: OK. Tomorrow you have a really long flight.Victor: That's correct.Todd: It's probably what about 15 hours?Victor: From Narita to Washington DC is 12 hours in the air.Todd: Wow. So how do you pass the time on the plane?Victor: On the plane, I like to sleep as much as possible.Todd: OK. Do you take medication or just have a beer or..?Victor: No. I don't take any medication. I just.. I tend to stay up late the day before so that I'm so tired I will want to sleep on the plane.Todd: Well, good strategy and I hope you have a good flight.Victor: Thank you very much.

Todd: OK. Victor, tomorrow you're flying home?Victor: Yes, that's correct.Todd: OK. So, are you afraid of flying?Victor: No, flying's fine.Todd: Really? Back home for your job, do you fly?Victor: No, I drive to work and to different assignments.Todd: OK. You never have to fly to go to conventions or other cities or stuff like that?Victor: Once or twice each year I do fly to go to conventions connected with my work.Todd: OK. Tomorrow you have a really long flight.Victor: That's correct.Todd: It's probably what about 15 hours?Victor: From Narita to Washington DC is 12 hours in the air.Todd: Wow. So how do you pass the time on the plane?Victor: On the plane, I like to sleep as much as possible.Todd: OK. Do you take medication or just have a beer or..?Victor: No. I don't take any medication. I just.. I tend to stay up late the day before so that I'm so tired I will want to sleep on the plane.Todd: Well, good strategy and I hope you have a good flight.Victor: Thank you very much.

Todd: OK. Victor, tomorrow you're flying home?Victor: Yes, that's correct.Todd: OK. So, are you afraid of flying?Victor: No, flying's fine.Todd: Really? Back home for your job, do you fly?Victor: No, I drive to work and to different assignments.Todd: OK. You never have to fly to go to conventions or other cities or stuff like that?Victor: Once or twice each year I do fly to go to conventions connected with my work.Todd: OK. Tomorrow you have a really long flight.Victor: That's correct.Todd: It's probably what about 15 hours?Victor: From Narita to Washington DC is 12 hours in the air.Todd: Wow. So how do you pass the time on the plane?Victor: On the plane, I like to sleep as much as possible.Todd: OK. Do you take medication or just have a beer or..?Victor: No. I don't take any medication. I just.. I tend to stay up late the day before so that I'm so tired I will want to sleep on the plane.Todd: Well, good strategy and I hope you have a good flight.Victor: Thank you very much.

Todd: So, Anthony we're talking about bitcoin. Now you've invested in bitcoin before?Anthony: Yeah, yeah, a bit.Todd: Do you still invest a lot now?Anthony: I haven't recently.Todd: Okay, so why did you stop?Anthony: I stopped because I was getting a little anxious about seeing my portfolio swing up and down by 5, 6, 7 thousand dollars in a day. I kind of decided that I would take out the money that I invested in it and just let my profits ride, basically.Todd: Right, so basically originally then, you were using bitcoin for speculative purposes. Not to actually buy things. You weren't using it as a means to actually make transactions.Anthony: That is correct. I've only bought one thing with bitcoin, and that was, it's called a hardware wallet, which is basically, it looks like a USB stick, but it's a way to secure your funds.Todd: Do you think that in the future we will have people using bitcoins more, like it's going to become a viable alternative to actually, for commerce to pay for things?Anthony: Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think bitcoin will be what we all use, but it's definitely, in my opinion, the archetype for what is coming.Todd: It's the pioneer.Anthony: Yes, the pioneering technology. There's going to be something that is similar to bitcoin that we use as a digital payment system.Todd: Yeah, so a lot of people are freaked out about bitcoin. What are some reasons people are skeptical against it?Anthony: That's a good question. One question that I've been asked before is, who controls it? Everyone always wants to know who's in charge. Right. Who's the CEO? Right? Because we're so conditioned to this kind of system, but that is the thing. It's kind of scary for some people, but there is no control over it. It's a program at the end of the day. And there's no governing body. There's no government organization that really has a say. I mean governments, specific governments, will try to regulate the markets to a certain extent. But at the end of the day, the power is in the hands of the people that use it, really. And as long as people use it there will be some kind of value to it. Just as long as we use paper money, there's value to it. As long as it's exchanged, right?Todd: Right. And some people have made some good points. For example, nobody foresaw the use of ecommerce or smart phones, or social media. But these things adopted and ramped up quickly. So, do you think this could happen with these crypto technologies?Anthony: I think-Todd: Is that the right way to say it? Crypto technologies.Anthony: Cryptocurrencies.Todd: Cryptocurrencies.Anthony: Or block chain technologies.Todd: Block chain technology, okay.Anthony: I think it's very rapid right now. It's kind of becoming a household word. Whereas, when I first got into it, if I talked to someone about bitcoin, they would look at me like I was crazy. They would look at me like I had a hole in my face or something. But now people know. Even older people who aren't really so in touch with technology, know what it is or have at least heard about it.Anthony: I think the biggest hurdle to mass adoptions is as it stands now, it takes a lot of knowledge and a lot of know-how in order to safely, because the reason why I say safely, is because if you're dealing with bitcoin, you're in charge of securing your funds. So, if someone hacks into your funds, or something, then it's your fault. You don't have anyone to blame. Where as if you have your money in a bank-Todd: You can't call customer service.Anthony: Exactly. You can't call customer service, so there's a big hurdel as far as the knowledge you need to safely and effectively maneuver in that space. So I think until some second party or third party comes about and makes it more user-friendly, I don't really think it's going to be ready to really take over until that happens. Either more people need to be educated and know how to use it and how to purchase it and how to store it, etc. Or there needs to be some huge company that going to say, "Look, we'll manage it for you. You just need this app, or something." I don't know, something like that.Todd: Yeah, it's going to be interesting in the crossover. They always say be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. If bitcoin or some crypto-Anthony: CurrencyTodd: Currency becomes the primary source of transactions, I think a lot of the ills and the dodgy stuff we have with banks, will seep into it. It'll be interesting if they could keep it out. If you know what I mean. But one thing that's interesting about the currencies is that, I think a lot of old people will go for it. I think a lot of old people usually are hesitant about technology and change, but the thing, they have a lot of money that they're sitting on, usually, older people. They also don't trust the government. They've been around a long time and so I think these cryptocurrencies are going to be very attractive to a lot of tech un-savvy people. What do you think about that?Anthony: I think you have a point. I think that probably more so than young people have money to invest, but I think that's, like I said before, I've spent so many hours reading about these kinds of technologies and just really obsessing over it, and I still feel like there's so much I don't know. So.Todd: Well, I guess we all got to learn.Anthony: Yeah. Alright.

Todd: So, Anthony we're talking about bitcoin. Now you've invested in bitcoin before?Anthony: Yeah, yeah, a bit.Todd: Do you still invest a lot now?Anthony: I haven't recently.Todd: Okay, so why did you stop?Anthony: I stopped because I was getting a little anxious about seeing my portfolio swing up and down by 5, 6, 7 thousand dollars in a day. I kind of decided that I would take out the money that I invested in it and just let my profits ride, basically.Todd: Right, so basically originally then, you were using bitcoin for speculative purposes. Not to actually buy things. You weren't using it as a means to actually make transactions.Anthony: That is correct. I've only bought one thing with bitcoin, and that was, it's called a hardware wallet, which is basically, it looks like a USB stick, but it's a way to secure your funds.Todd: Do you think that in the future we will have people using bitcoins more, like it's going to become a viable alternative to actually, for commerce to pay for things?Anthony: Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think bitcoin will be what we all use, but it's definitely, in my opinion, the archetype for what is coming.Todd: It's the pioneer.Anthony: Yes, the pioneering technology. There's going to be something that is similar to bitcoin that we use as a digital payment system.Todd: Yeah, so a lot of people are freaked out about bitcoin. What are some reasons people are skeptical against it?Anthony: That's a good question. One question that I've been asked before is, who controls it? Everyone always wants to know who's in charge. Right. Who's the CEO? Right? Because we're so conditioned to this kind of system, but that is the thing. It's kind of scary for some people, but there is no control over it. It's a program at the end of the day. And there's no governing body. There's no government organization that really has a say. I mean governments, specific governments, will try to regulate the markets to a certain extent. But at the end of the day, the power is in the hands of the people that use it, really. And as long as people use it there will be some kind of value to it. Just as long as we use paper money, there's value to it. As long as it's exchanged, right?Todd: Right. And some people have made some good points. For example, nobody foresaw the use of ecommerce or smart phones, or social media. But these things adopted and ramped up quickly. So, do you think this could happen with these crypto technologies?Anthony: I think-Todd: Is that the right way to say it? Crypto technologies.Anthony: Cryptocurrencies.Todd: Cryptocurrencies.Anthony: Or block chain technologies.Todd: Block chain technology, okay.Anthony: I think it's very rapid right now. It's kind of becoming a household word. Whereas, when I first got into it, if I talked to someone about bitcoin, they would look at me like I was crazy. They would look at me like I had a hole in my face or something. But now people know. Even older people who aren't really so in touch with technology, know what it is or have at least heard about it.Anthony: I think the biggest hurdle to mass adoptions is as it stands now, it takes a lot of knowledge and a lot of know-how in order to safely, because the reason why I say safely, is because if you're dealing with bitcoin, you're in charge of securing your funds. So, if someone hacks into your funds, or something, then it's your fault. You don't have anyone to blame. Where as if you have your money in a bank-Todd: You can't call customer service.Anthony: Exactly. You can't call customer service, so there's a big hurdel as far as the knowledge you need to safely and effectively maneuver in that space. So I think until some second party or third party comes about and makes it more user-friendly, I don't really think it's going to be ready to really take over until that happens. Either more people need to be educated and know how to use it and how to purchase it and how to store it, etc. Or there needs to be some huge company that going to say, "Look, we'll manage it for you. You just need this app, or something." I don't know, something like that.Todd: Yeah, it's going to be interesting in the crossover. They always say be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. If bitcoin or some crypto-Anthony: CurrencyTodd: Currency becomes the primary source of transactions, I think a lot of the ills and the dodgy stuff we have with banks, will seep into it. It'll be interesting if they could keep it out. If you know what I mean. But one thing that's interesting about the currencies is that, I think a lot of old people will go for it. I think a lot of old people usually are hesitant about technology and change, but the thing, they have a lot of money that they're sitting on, usually, older people. They also don't trust the government. They've been around a long time and so I think these cryptocurrencies are going to be very attractive to a lot of tech un-savvy people. What do you think about that?Anthony: I think you have a point. I think that probably more so than young people have money to invest, but I think that's, like I said before, I've spent so many hours reading about these kinds of technologies and just really obsessing over it, and I still feel like there's so much I don't know. So.Todd: Well, I guess we all got to learn.Anthony: Yeah. Alright.

Todd: So, Anthony we're talking about bitcoin. Now you've invested in bitcoin before?Anthony: Yeah, yeah, a bit.Todd: Do you still invest a lot now?Anthony: I haven't recently.Todd: Okay, so why did you stop?Anthony: I stopped because I was getting a little anxious about seeing my portfolio swing up and down by 5, 6, 7 thousand dollars in a day. I kind of decided that I would take out the money that I invested in it and just let my profits ride, basically.Todd: Right, so basically originally then, you were using bitcoin for speculative purposes. Not to actually buy things. You weren't using it as a means to actually make transactions.Anthony: That is correct. I've only bought one thing with bitcoin, and that was, it's called a hardware wallet, which is basically, it looks like a USB stick, but it's a way to secure your funds.Todd: Do you think that in the future we will have people using bitcoins more, like it's going to become a viable alternative to actually, for commerce to pay for things?Anthony: Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think bitcoin will be what we all use, but it's definitely, in my opinion, the archetype for what is coming.Todd: It's the pioneer.Anthony: Yes, the pioneering technology. There's going to be something that is similar to bitcoin that we use as a digital payment system.Todd: Yeah, so a lot of people are freaked out about bitcoin. What are some reasons people are skeptical against it?Anthony: That's a good question. One question that I've been asked before is, who controls it? Everyone always wants to know who's in charge. Right. Who's the CEO? Right? Because we're so conditioned to this kind of system, but that is the thing. It's kind of scary for some people, but there is no control over it. It's a program at the end of the day. And there's no governing body. There's no government organization that really has a say. I mean governments, specific governments, will try to regulate the markets to a certain extent. But at the end of the day, the power is in the hands of the people that use it, really. And as long as people use it there will be some kind of value to it. Just as long as we use paper money, there's value to it. As long as it's exchanged, right?Todd: Right. And some people have made some good points. For example, nobody foresaw the use of ecommerce or smart phones, or social media. But these things adopted and ramped up quickly. So, do you think this could happen with these crypto technologies?Anthony: I think-Todd: Is that the right way to say it? Crypto technologies.Anthony: Cryptocurrencies.Todd: Cryptocurrencies.Anthony: Or block chain technologies.Todd: Block chain technology, okay.Anthony: I think it's very rapid right now. It's kind of becoming a household word. Whereas, when I first got into it, if I talked to someone about bitcoin, they would look at me like I was crazy. They would look at me like I had a hole in my face or something. But now people know. Even older people who aren't really so in touch with technology, know what it is or have at least heard about it.Anthony: I think the biggest hurdle to mass adoptions is as it stands now, it takes a lot of knowledge and a lot of know-how in order to safely, because the reason why I say safely, is because if you're dealing with bitcoin, you're in charge of securing your funds. So, if someone hacks into your funds, or something, then it's your fault. You don't have anyone to blame. Where as if you have your money in a bank-Todd: You can't call customer service.Anthony: Exactly. You can't call customer service, so there's a big hurdel as far as the knowledge you need to safely and effectively maneuver in that space. So I think until some second party or third party comes about and makes it more user-friendly, I don't really think it's going to be ready to really take over until that happens. Either more people need to be educated and know how to use it and how to purchase it and how to store it, etc. Or there needs to be some huge company that going to say, "Look, we'll manage it for you. You just need this app, or something." I don't know, something like that.Todd: Yeah, it's going to be interesting in the crossover. They always say be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. If bitcoin or some crypto-Anthony: CurrencyTodd: Currency becomes the primary source of transactions, I think a lot of the ills and the dodgy stuff we have with banks, will seep into it. It'll be interesting if they could keep it out. If you know what I mean. But one thing that's interesting about the currencies is that, I think a lot of old people will go for it. I think a lot of old people usually are hesitant about technology and change, but the thing, they have a lot of money that they're sitting on, usually, older people. They also don't trust the government. They've been around a long time and so I think these cryptocurrencies are going to be very attractive to a lot of tech un-savvy people. What do you think about that?Anthony: I think you have a point. I think that probably more so than young people have money to invest, but I think that's, like I said before, I've spent so many hours reading about these kinds of technologies and just really obsessing over it, and I still feel like there's so much I don't know. So.Todd: Well, I guess we all got to learn.Anthony: Yeah. Alright.

Todd: Okay. So, Anthony, I thought we would talk about bitcoin.Anthony: Okay.Todd: So, you are kind of the expert about bitcoin.Anthony: I wouldn't say I'm an expert, I just, maybe a hobbyist, bitcoin hobbyist.Todd: How long have you been involved with bitcoin?Anthony: I first heard about bitcoin in probably 2012, and I really, I'm really kicking myself that I didn't buy some then because it was about $20, but when I-Todd: So $20 per bitcoin-Anthony: Yeah, per bitcoin was about $20.Todd: Okay. So how much is it worth now?Anthony: Right now, it's about $8,500, somewhere around there.Todd: You've got to be kidding me.Anthony: No. I wish I was, but-Todd: Wow.Anthony: I got into it as a hobbyist around 2014, a little before I moved abroad, and I got into what is known mining. To briefly explain what that is, is miners, people who call themselves miners, they buy special computers which are called ASICs, and that stands for application-specific integrated circuit. The application-specific part means that the chips that you're using in that computer can only be used for one purpose, and that purpose is to solve cryptographic problems thus creating bitcoin. So that's what I was doing, I was running a mining computer.Todd: So you say mining, like mining, you're getting little bits of bitcoin-Anthony: Yeah, exactly.Todd: And it's tiny, tiny fragments.Anthony: Exactly.Todd: You have this chip in your computer. Your computer finds this cryptographic problem, so your computer, you get the reward by getting a small bit of bitcoin.Anthony: Exactly. It's called solo mining. You can do solo mining where you're only working with your, with whatever computers you have, but what's a lot more popular is pool mining where you join a pool and you work together with a group of miners to solve one problem. Once the block is discovered, as they say, each block contains 50 bitcoins. So depending on the computing power that you were giving the pool, you get paid out in equal measure. For people, that's a lot more profitable than solo mining because you could solo mine for years and never find a block.Todd: Yeah. For somebody who has no concept of this, the first thing they're going to ask you is, well, who creates these blocks of ... Who makes this?Anthony: That's a good question.Todd: It's like a "Where are we from?" It's like a chicken and an egg thing, so-Anthony: Exactly, and that's a very interesting point to bring up because allegedly the creator of bitcoin is someone called Satoshi Nakamoto. And he is the alleged creator, as I said, but the reason I say alleged is that no one has ever met this person. He's kind of a mystery, so no one knows his real identity. Some people have had made theories that it could be a group of people. It could be a specific person that, and that's just an alias, but no one really knows who this guy is and where he came from. Yeah, it's this really interesting concept.Todd: So, then how did this take hold? How did this get a foot in society? You know what I mean, like get a foot in the door, I should say.Anthony: Yeah.Todd: So somebody creates this system. This person is a mystery, but then the internet grabbed onto it and said, "Hey, this is a really cool thing. I want to buy this." It's just it's quite interesting that this market came out of nowhere and now it's challenging traditional currency systems.Anthony: Exactly. This was before the internet was even really what it is now, but I think in like 2007, I think, 2007, 2008, there was a group of people called the Cypherpunks, and they were kind of like anarchistic programmers that were anti-establishment. They ran this email mailing list, and they were just collaborating together talking about creating some kind of digital cash. Satoshi Nakamoto was a member of that mailing list, and that's where it kind of gained the underground movement and ... Really, I think there's what is called the white paper and that's the document that details everything about bitcoin, and it's really big. I'm not sure exactly how large, but it's like a book, and a lot of the reason it took off is people would read it and they would believe the technology, and they would try to sell it to other people because they believed in it really.Todd: Wow. That's an interesting history, and so basically this community read this white paper and then it took off-Anthony: From there.Todd: And gained momentum and then that here we are today.Anthony: Yeah, but I think a big part of it, as you mentioned, is really just convincing people because really fiat currency, I mean, if you break it down, it's just paper, right?Todd: Yeah.Anthony: It's just paper that the government makes.Todd: It's an illusion.Anthony: Yeah, and the only reason that it has any value is because we trust in it. So, if I give you a $100 bill or whatever, you're going to trust that you can spend that to buy something. It's the same thing with bitcoin. It's a process of convincing people that because this technology makes something that is scarce, it cannot be replicated, it cannot be ... Without the proper means, it cannot be moved or taken, that it is a valid way of transferring value digitally. So that's a really big part of it and a lot of people have bought into it.Todd: Wow. Very interesting.

Todd: Okay. So, Anthony, I thought we would talk about bitcoin.Anthony: Okay.Todd: So, you are kind of the expert about bitcoin.Anthony: I wouldn't say I'm an expert, I just, maybe a hobbyist, bitcoin hobbyist.Todd: How long have you been involved with bitcoin?Anthony: I first heard about bitcoin in probably 2012, and I really, I'm really kicking myself that I didn't buy some then because it was about $20, but when I-Todd: So $20 per bitcoin-Anthony: Yeah, per bitcoin was about $20.Todd: Okay. So how much is it worth now?Anthony: Right now, it's about $8,500, somewhere around there.Todd: You've got to be kidding me.Anthony: No. I wish I was, but-Todd: Wow.Anthony: I got into it as a hobbyist around 2014, a little before I moved abroad, and I got into what is known mining. To briefly explain what that is, is miners, people who call themselves miners, they buy special computers which are called ASICs, and that stands for application-specific integrated circuit. The application-specific part means that the chips that you're using in that computer can only be used for one purpose, and that purpose is to solve cryptographic problems thus creating bitcoin. So that's what I was doing, I was running a mining computer.Todd: So you say mining, like mining, you're getting little bits of bitcoin-Anthony: Yeah, exactly.Todd: And it's tiny, tiny fragments.Anthony: Exactly.Todd: You have this chip in your computer. Your computer finds this cryptographic problem, so your computer, you get the reward by getting a small bit of bitcoin.Anthony: Exactly. It's called solo mining. You can do solo mining where you're only working with your, with whatever computers you have, but what's a lot more popular is pool mining where you join a pool and you work together with a group of miners to solve one problem. Once the block is discovered, as they say, each block contains 50 bitcoins. So depending on the computing power that you were giving the pool, you get paid out in equal measure. For people, that's a lot more profitable than solo mining because you could solo mine for years and never find a block.Todd: Yeah. For somebody who has no concept of this, the first thing they're going to ask you is, well, who creates these blocks of ... Who makes this?Anthony: That's a good question.Todd: It's like a "Where are we from?" It's like a chicken and an egg thing, so-Anthony: Exactly, and that's a very interesting point to bring up because allegedly the creator of bitcoin is someone called Satoshi Nakamoto. And he is the alleged creator, as I said, but the reason I say alleged is that no one has ever met this person. He's kind of a mystery, so no one knows his real identity. Some people have had made theories that it could be a group of people. It could be a specific person that, and that's just an alias, but no one really knows who this guy is and where he came from. Yeah, it's this really interesting concept.Todd: So, then how did this take hold? How did this get a foot in society? You know what I mean, like get a foot in the door, I should say.Anthony: Yeah.Todd: So somebody creates this system. This person is a mystery, but then the internet grabbed onto it and said, "Hey, this is a really cool thing. I want to buy this." It's just it's quite interesting that this market came out of nowhere and now it's challenging traditional currency systems.Anthony: Exactly. This was before the internet was even really what it is now, but I think in like 2007, I think, 2007, 2008, there was a group of people called the Cypherpunks, and they were kind of like anarchistic programmers that were anti-establishment. They ran this email mailing list, and they were just collaborating together talking about creating some kind of digital cash. Satoshi Nakamoto was a member of that mailing list, and that's where it kind of gained the underground movement and ... Really, I think there's what is called the white paper and that's the document that details everything about bitcoin, and it's really big. I'm not sure exactly how large, but it's like a book, and a lot of the reason it took off is people would read it and they would believe the technology, and they would try to sell it to other people because they believed in it really.Todd: Wow. That's an interesting history, and so basically this community read this white paper and then it took off-Anthony: From there.Todd: And gained momentum and then that here we are today.Anthony: Yeah, but I think a big part of it, as you mentioned, is really just convincing people because really fiat currency, I mean, if you break it down, it's just paper, right?Todd: Yeah.Anthony: It's just paper that the government makes.Todd: It's an illusion.Anthony: Yeah, and the only reason that it has any value is because we trust in it. So, if I give you a $100 bill or whatever, you're going to trust that you can spend that to buy something. It's the same thing with bitcoin. It's a process of convincing people that because this technology makes something that is scarce, it cannot be replicated, it cannot be ... Without the proper means, it cannot be moved or taken, that it is a valid way of transferring value digitally. So that's a really big part of it and a lot of people have bought into it.Todd: Wow. Very interesting.

Todd: Okay. So, Anthony, I thought we would talk about bitcoin.Anthony: Okay.Todd: So, you are kind of the expert about bitcoin.Anthony: I wouldn't say I'm an expert, I just, maybe a hobbyist, bitcoin hobbyist.Todd: How long have you been involved with bitcoin?Anthony: I first heard about bitcoin in probably 2012, and I really, I'm really kicking myself that I didn't buy some then because it was about $20, but when I-Todd: So $20 per bitcoin-Anthony: Yeah, per bitcoin was about $20.Todd: Okay. So how much is it worth now?Anthony: Right now, it's about $8,500, somewhere around there.Todd: You've got to be kidding me.Anthony: No. I wish I was, but-Todd: Wow.Anthony: I got into it as a hobbyist around 2014, a little before I moved abroad, and I got into what is known mining. To briefly explain what that is, is miners, people who call themselves miners, they buy special computers which are called ASICs, and that stands for application-specific integrated circuit. The application-specific part means that the chips that you're using in that computer can only be used for one purpose, and that purpose is to solve cryptographic problems thus creating bitcoin. So that's what I was doing, I was running a mining computer.Todd: So you say mining, like mining, you're getting little bits of bitcoin-Anthony: Yeah, exactly.Todd: And it's tiny, tiny fragments.Anthony: Exactly.Todd: You have this chip in your computer. Your computer finds this cryptographic problem, so your computer, you get the reward by getting a small bit of bitcoin.Anthony: Exactly. It's called solo mining. You can do solo mining where you're only working with your, with whatever computers you have, but what's a lot more popular is pool mining where you join a pool and you work together with a group of miners to solve one problem. Once the block is discovered, as they say, each block contains 50 bitcoins. So depending on the computing power that you were giving the pool, you get paid out in equal measure. For people, that's a lot more profitable than solo mining because you could solo mine for years and never find a block.Todd: Yeah. For somebody who has no concept of this, the first thing they're going to ask you is, well, who creates these blocks of ... Who makes this?Anthony: That's a good question.Todd: It's like a "Where are we from?" It's like a chicken and an egg thing, so-Anthony: Exactly, and that's a very interesting point to bring up because allegedly the creator of bitcoin is someone called Satoshi Nakamoto. And he is the alleged creator, as I said, but the reason I say alleged is that no one has ever met this person. He's kind of a mystery, so no one knows his real identity. Some people have had made theories that it could be a group of people. It could be a specific person that, and that's just an alias, but no one really knows who this guy is and where he came from. Yeah, it's this really interesting concept.Todd: So, then how did this take hold? How did this get a foot in society? You know what I mean, like get a foot in the door, I should say.Anthony: Yeah.Todd: So somebody creates this system. This person is a mystery, but then the internet grabbed onto it and said, "Hey, this is a really cool thing. I want to buy this." It's just it's quite interesting that this market came out of nowhere and now it's challenging traditional currency systems.Anthony: Exactly. This was before the internet was even really what it is now, but I think in like 2007, I think, 2007, 2008, there was a group of people called the Cypherpunks, and they were kind of like anarchistic programmers that were anti-establishment. They ran this email mailing list, and they were just collaborating together talking about creating some kind of digital cash. Satoshi Nakamoto was a member of that mailing list, and that's where it kind of gained the underground movement and ... Really, I think there's what is called the white paper and that's the document that details everything about bitcoin, and it's really big. I'm not sure exactly how large, but it's like a book, and a lot of the reason it took off is people would read it and they would believe the technology, and they would try to sell it to other people because they believed in it really.Todd: Wow. That's an interesting history, and so basically this community read this white paper and then it took off-Anthony: From there.Todd: And gained momentum and then that here we are today.Anthony: Yeah, but I think a big part of it, as you mentioned, is really just convincing people because really fiat currency, I mean, if you break it down, it's just paper, right?Todd: Yeah.Anthony: It's just paper that the government makes.Todd: It's an illusion.Anthony: Yeah, and the only reason that it has any value is because we trust in it. So, if I give you a $100 bill or whatever, you're going to trust that you can spend that to buy something. It's the same thing with bitcoin. It's a process of convincing people that because this technology makes something that is scarce, it cannot be replicated, it cannot be ... Without the proper means, it cannot be moved or taken, that it is a valid way of transferring value digitally. So that's a really big part of it and a lot of people have bought into it.Todd: Wow. Very interesting.

Todd: So, I'm here with Jerri, and she's Thai, and we are in Bangkok. And we are going to talk about fashion. So, Jerri, Bangkok is a very, very fashion-conscious city.Jerri: Yes, absolutely.Todd: Shopping is huge here. So, let's talk about prices. So, first we'll talk about jeans. You are wearing jeans today. So, how much are an expensive pair of jeans in Bangkok?Jerri: Well, that's funny that you ask because the price range for clothes here is quite wide, so you can go from 200 baht - Thai baht - for a pair of jeans up to 4000 Thai baht for a pair of jeans in a, like a, like, one of the top brands.Todd: Wow. So, just so people know, 200 baht would be - in U.S. dollar that's about six dollars. And 4000 baht would be about 130 dollars.Jerri: Yes. Yeah.Todd: Wow.Jerri: So, it's quite a, quite a difference there. But I would say that generally it will be in the range of 500 to 2000 Thai baht.Todd: Okay. 500 to 2000. That's still pretty a wide gap.Jerri: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Todd: Okay, cool. So those are jeans. What about, for women, a blouse?Jerri: A blouse? I would say...for, like, a nice quality one, like, 500 Thai baht.Todd: Okay. That's not bad.Jerri: Yeah. That's alright.Todd: Fifteen dollars, about. Okay. What's the most you would pay for a blouse?Jerri: No more than 1000 Thai baht.Todd: Okay.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: That's your, that's - what about the cheapest?Jerri: The cheapest? Like, 300 Thai baht. Like, if you started going lower than 300 Thai baht, then you have to accept that the, you know, the quality - you might get to wear it not more than three times.Todd: Okay.Jerri: So, that's the price you pay.Todd: Nice, alright. So, what about shoes?Jerri: Shoes? It's - it also depends on where you go. So, Chatuchak market is known for affordable clothes, so the shoes there would be from 200 Thai baht to 500 Thai baht. But if you visit the more well-known stores and the department stores, then they can be from 500 Thai baht to 1000 Thai baht.Todd: Okay, that's interesting. So, you mentioned Jatujak market - can you kind of talk about Jatujak market?Jerri: Yes, so, this is one of the main activities for tourists to do when they visit Bangkok. It's a weekend market, so it's only open on Saturdays and Sundays. It's quite crowded, but it's definitely something you should do. There's a lot of souvenir stores, a lot of local shops, and, yeah, a place to shop for clothes. And it's not just for tourists, you also see a lot of Thais go there because all the stores there are reasonable - reasonably priced and they're quite trendy. Yeah, they have, like, different styles...stores that you won't find anywhere else.Todd: Right. Oh, yeah, I've been there a couple of times. It's massive. It's really, really big.Jerri: Yeah, it's massive. It takes about half a day to do the entire thing.Todd: It's easy to get lost right?Jerri: Yes.Todd: If you go inside, you kind of don't know where you are.Jerri: Exactly, exactly. Which I guess is also the fun part of it. It's like an adventure in itself, right?Todd: Right, exactly. Okay, so, what about things like, like belts or, you know, like accessories?Jerri: I would recommend going to Platinum Mall. This mall is located near Siam BTS station. It's known for its accessories that are, like, reasonably priced. So, at that - at Platinum Mall accessories can be from two - 100 Thai baht to not more than 1000 Thai baht, but usually in the range of 100 to 500 Thai baht.Todd: Okay. Oh, wow.Jerri: Yeah. But there's a whole floor, like, two floors that's dedicated to accessories. So, you can find necklaces, sunglasses, rings, earrings, about ten shops for each category, yes.Todd: Oh, that's fantastic. So, Bangkok's quite interesting because it has so many different ways. You can buy things on the street...Jerri: Yes.Todd: You can buy things at the markets. You can buy things at the nice, air-conditioned malls.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: Yeah. What about online? Do you Thais shop online very much?Jerri: Yeah. Online - online shops are becoming more and more popular now because it's quite convenient. You just get it delivered to you. Yeah, there's a lot of - a lot of more fashion brands that are online. On Instagram, for example. Yeah, so it's becoming a thing.Todd: Oh, cool. Alright, thanks, Jerri.Jerri: You're welcome.

Todd: So, I'm here with Jerri, and she's Thai, and we are in Bangkok. And we are going to talk about fashion. So, Jerri, Bangkok is a very, very fashion-conscious city.Jerri: Yes, absolutely.Todd: Shopping is huge here. So, let's talk about prices. So, first we'll talk about jeans. You are wearing jeans today. So, how much are an expensive pair of jeans in Bangkok?Jerri: Well, that's funny that you ask because the price range for clothes here is quite wide, so you can go from 200 baht - Thai baht - for a pair of jeans up to 4000 Thai baht for a pair of jeans in a, like a, like, one of the top brands.Todd: Wow. So, just so people know, 200 baht would be - in U.S. dollar that's about six dollars. And 4000 baht would be about 130 dollars.Jerri: Yes. Yeah.Todd: Wow.Jerri: So, it's quite a, quite a difference there. But I would say that generally it will be in the range of 500 to 2000 Thai baht.Todd: Okay. 500 to 2000. That's still pretty a wide gap.Jerri: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Todd: Okay, cool. So those are jeans. What about, for women, a blouse?Jerri: A blouse? I would say...for, like, a nice quality one, like, 500 Thai baht.Todd: Okay. That's not bad.Jerri: Yeah. That's alright.Todd: Fifteen dollars, about. Okay. What's the most you would pay for a blouse?Jerri: No more than 1000 Thai baht.Todd: Okay.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: That's your, that's - what about the cheapest?Jerri: The cheapest? Like, 300 Thai baht. Like, if you started going lower than 300 Thai baht, then you have to accept that the, you know, the quality - you might get to wear it not more than three times.Todd: Okay.Jerri: So, that's the price you pay.Todd: Nice, alright. So, what about shoes?Jerri: Shoes? It's - it also depends on where you go. So, Chatuchak market is known for affordable clothes, so the shoes there would be from 200 Thai baht to 500 Thai baht. But if you visit the more well-known stores and the department stores, then they can be from 500 Thai baht to 1000 Thai baht.Todd: Okay, that's interesting. So, you mentioned Jatujak market - can you kind of talk about Jatujak market?Jerri: Yes, so, this is one of the main activities for tourists to do when they visit Bangkok. It's a weekend market, so it's only open on Saturdays and Sundays. It's quite crowded, but it's definitely something you should do. There's a lot of souvenir stores, a lot of local shops, and, yeah, a place to shop for clothes. And it's not just for tourists, you also see a lot of Thais go there because all the stores there are reasonable - reasonably priced and they're quite trendy. Yeah, they have, like, different styles...stores that you won't find anywhere else.Todd: Right. Oh, yeah, I've been there a couple of times. It's massive. It's really, really big.Jerri: Yeah, it's massive. It takes about half a day to do the entire thing.Todd: It's easy to get lost right?Jerri: Yes.Todd: If you go inside, you kind of don't know where you are.Jerri: Exactly, exactly. Which I guess is also the fun part of it. It's like an adventure in itself, right?Todd: Right, exactly. Okay, so, what about things like, like belts or, you know, like accessories?Jerri: I would recommend going to Platinum Mall. This mall is located near Siam BTS station. It's known for its accessories that are, like, reasonably priced. So, at that - at Platinum Mall accessories can be from two - 100 Thai baht to not more than 1000 Thai baht, but usually in the range of 100 to 500 Thai baht.Todd: Okay. Oh, wow.Jerri: Yeah. But there's a whole floor, like, two floors that's dedicated to accessories. So, you can find necklaces, sunglasses, rings, earrings, about ten shops for each category, yes.Todd: Oh, that's fantastic. So, Bangkok's quite interesting because it has so many different ways. You can buy things on the street...Jerri: Yes.Todd: You can buy things at the markets. You can buy things at the nice, air-conditioned malls.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: Yeah. What about online? Do you Thais shop online very much?Jerri: Yeah. Online - online shops are becoming more and more popular now because it's quite convenient. You just get it delivered to you. Yeah, there's a lot of - a lot of more fashion brands that are online. On Instagram, for example. Yeah, so it's becoming a thing.Todd: Oh, cool. Alright, thanks, Jerri.Jerri: You're welcome.

Todd: So, I'm here with Jerri, and she's Thai, and we are in Bangkok. And we are going to talk about fashion. So, Jerri, Bangkok is a very, very fashion-conscious city.Jerri: Yes, absolutely.Todd: Shopping is huge here. So, let's talk about prices. So, first we'll talk about jeans. You are wearing jeans today. So, how much are an expensive pair of jeans in Bangkok?Jerri: Well, that's funny that you ask because the price range for clothes here is quite wide, so you can go from 200 baht - Thai baht - for a pair of jeans up to 4000 Thai baht for a pair of jeans in a, like a, like, one of the top brands.Todd: Wow. So, just so people know, 200 baht would be - in U.S. dollar that's about six dollars. And 4000 baht would be about 130 dollars.Jerri: Yes. Yeah.Todd: Wow.Jerri: So, it's quite a, quite a difference there. But I would say that generally it will be in the range of 500 to 2000 Thai baht.Todd: Okay. 500 to 2000. That's still pretty a wide gap.Jerri: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Todd: Okay, cool. So those are jeans. What about, for women, a blouse?Jerri: A blouse? I would say...for, like, a nice quality one, like, 500 Thai baht.Todd: Okay. That's not bad.Jerri: Yeah. That's alright.Todd: Fifteen dollars, about. Okay. What's the most you would pay for a blouse?Jerri: No more than 1000 Thai baht.Todd: Okay.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: That's your, that's - what about the cheapest?Jerri: The cheapest? Like, 300 Thai baht. Like, if you started going lower than 300 Thai baht, then you have to accept that the, you know, the quality - you might get to wear it not more than three times.Todd: Okay.Jerri: So, that's the price you pay.Todd: Nice, alright. So, what about shoes?Jerri: Shoes? It's - it also depends on where you go. So, Chatuchak market is known for affordable clothes, so the shoes there would be from 200 Thai baht to 500 Thai baht. But if you visit the more well-known stores and the department stores, then they can be from 500 Thai baht to 1000 Thai baht.Todd: Okay, that's interesting. So, you mentioned Jatujak market - can you kind of talk about Jatujak market?Jerri: Yes, so, this is one of the main activities for tourists to do when they visit Bangkok. It's a weekend market, so it's only open on Saturdays and Sundays. It's quite crowded, but it's definitely something you should do. There's a lot of souvenir stores, a lot of local shops, and, yeah, a place to shop for clothes. And it's not just for tourists, you also see a lot of Thais go there because all the stores there are reasonable - reasonably priced and they're quite trendy. Yeah, they have, like, different styles...stores that you won't find anywhere else.Todd: Right. Oh, yeah, I've been there a couple of times. It's massive. It's really, really big.Jerri: Yeah, it's massive. It takes about half a day to do the entire thing.Todd: It's easy to get lost right?Jerri: Yes.Todd: If you go inside, you kind of don't know where you are.Jerri: Exactly, exactly. Which I guess is also the fun part of it. It's like an adventure in itself, right?Todd: Right, exactly. Okay, so, what about things like, like belts or, you know, like accessories?Jerri: I would recommend going to Platinum Mall. This mall is located near Siam BTS station. It's known for its accessories that are, like, reasonably priced. So, at that - at Platinum Mall accessories can be from two - 100 Thai baht to not more than 1000 Thai baht, but usually in the range of 100 to 500 Thai baht.Todd: Okay. Oh, wow.Jerri: Yeah. But there's a whole floor, like, two floors that's dedicated to accessories. So, you can find necklaces, sunglasses, rings, earrings, about ten shops for each category, yes.Todd: Oh, that's fantastic. So, Bangkok's quite interesting because it has so many different ways. You can buy things on the street...Jerri: Yes.Todd: You can buy things at the markets. You can buy things at the nice, air-conditioned malls.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: Yeah. What about online? Do you Thais shop online very much?Jerri: Yeah. Online - online shops are becoming more and more popular now because it's quite convenient. You just get it delivered to you. Yeah, there's a lot of - a lot of more fashion brands that are online. On Instagram, for example. Yeah, so it's becoming a thing.Todd: Oh, cool. Alright, thanks, Jerri.Jerri: You're welcome.

Todd: Another famous thing about Bangkok is the motorcycle taxis, which really freak a lot of the tourists out.Jerri: I'm sure, I'm sure.Todd: Like, they're afraid to get on one. Can you explain the motorcycle taxis, which are incredibly common?Jerri: Absolutely, so, it can get quite - it's quite scary but it's probably the fastest and most cost-effective way to get around Bangkok, especially during the rush hour. Motorbike - you know, there's like a lot of motorbike taxis in Bangkok and they're at different stations, so you can get them at the - at - right below the skytrain station, mostly. And, yeah, they know the streets very well. They know the - the - the fastest routes to get to your destination. And once you get familiar with it, it's actually not too bad as long as you ask for a helmet. I always think that that's - that is - 'cause it does get quite scary on the main roads with, like, a lot of...Todd: Yeah, women, a lot of times, sit in a very dangerous position...Jerri: Yeah, yeah.Todd: ...because of their skirt. They'll sit sideways...Jerri: Yeah.Todd: ...they don't sit with both legs on - with one leg on each side of the motorcycle, which I always find incredibly dangerous.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: Do you ever sit that way?Jerri: I have to admit, yeah, most of the time I sit that way. And it's quite, like - you don't realize it yourself but when people see it they're quite fascinated by it...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ...like, how we can balance ourself...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ...and then the motorbike is like swerving its way around.Todd: Right, exactly.Jerri: Yeah. Yeah.Todd: Another thing about the - maybe just explaining about the motorcycle taxis - is, so, Bangkok has really long streets. It's not a grid system.Jerri: No.Todd: It's kind of like the roots of a tree. Like, the roads will just go forever...Jerri: Right. Yes.Todd: ...in one direction. So, basically, people take the main lines, like the subway or overhead train, to their stop and then they take the motorcycle taxi to their home, correct?Todd: Yes, yes, correct. That's the most common way, yeah, to do it.Todd: Yeah. And in the mornings and in the evenings it's amazing 'cause it's, like, this fleet of motorcycle.Jerri: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Todd: Like, the whole street is just humming with motorcycles.Jerri: And then you realize how popular they are when you're standing at the station and there's no motorbikes left 'cause, you know, they're all being, yeah, being used.Todd: Yeah. So, like, in your - where you live, do you see the same motorcycle taxis every day?Jerri: Yes, yes.Todd: Do you know them by name?Jerri: Yes. So, like, even the one in front of where I work - they're, like, familiar face. They know where I live, and...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ...they take me home every day. Yeah.Todd: Oh my God, that's so awesome. So, what about new things like Uber and Grab?Jerri: So, it's causing quite a bit of tension in Bangkok. As expected, you know the motorcycle taxis and the normal taxis are not so happy about the - this. But, yeah, I think with the election coming up, a lot of parties are trying to regulate it a little better because, currently, the main problem is that the Ubers and the Grab drivers are not legal to have passengers. They don't have the license. So, that's the main issue where - why the motorbike taxis are - and the - the normal taxi drivers are quite fed up about.Todd: Wow. Well, one thing's for sure: it's very easy to get around this city.Jerri: Yes, definitely.

Todd: Another famous thing about Bangkok is the motorcycle taxis, which really freak a lot of the tourists out.Jerri: I'm sure, I'm sure.Todd: Like, they're afraid to get on one. Can you explain the motorcycle taxis, which are incredibly common?Jerri: Absolutely, so, it can get quite - it's quite scary but it's probably the fastest and most cost-effective way to get around Bangkok, especially during the rush hour. Motorbike - you know, there's like a lot of motorbike taxis in Bangkok and they're at different stations, so you can get them at the - at - right below the skytrain station, mostly. And, yeah, they know the streets very well. They know the - the - the fastest routes to get to your destination. And once you get familiar with it, it's actually not too bad as long as you ask for a helmet. I always think that that's - that is - 'cause it does get quite scary on the main roads with, like, a lot of...Todd: Yeah, women, a lot of times, sit in a very dangerous position...Jerri: Yeah, yeah.Todd: ...because of their skirt. They'll sit sideways...Jerri: Yeah.Todd: ...they don't sit with both legs on - with one leg on each side of the motorcycle, which I always find incredibly dangerous.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: Do you ever sit that way?Jerri: I have to admit, yeah, most of the time I sit that way. And it's quite, like - you don't realize it yourself but when people see it they're quite fascinated by it...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ...like, how we can balance ourself...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ...and then the motorbike is like swerving its way around.Todd: Right, exactly.Jerri: Yeah. Yeah.Todd: Another thing about the - maybe just explaining about the motorcycle taxis - is, so, Bangkok has really long streets. It's not a grid system.Jerri: No.Todd: It's kind of like the roots of a tree. Like, the roads will just go forever...Jerri: Right. Yes.Todd: ...in one direction. So, basically, people take the main lines, like the subway or overhead train, to their stop and then they take the motorcycle taxi to their home, correct?Todd: Yes, yes, correct. That's the most common way, yeah, to do it.Todd: Yeah. And in the mornings and in the evenings it's amazing 'cause it's, like, this fleet of motorcycle.Jerri: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Todd: Like, the whole street is just humming with motorcycles.Jerri: And then you realize how popular they are when you're standing at the station and there's no motorbikes left 'cause, you know, they're all being, yeah, being used.Todd: Yeah. So, like, in your - where you live, do you see the same motorcycle taxis every day?Jerri: Yes, yes.Todd: Do you know them by name?Jerri: Yes. So, like, even the one in front of where I work - they're, like, familiar face. They know where I live, and...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ...they take me home every day. Yeah.Todd: Oh my God, that's so awesome. So, what about new things like Uber and Grab?Jerri: So, it's causing quite a bit of tension in Bangkok. As expected, you know the motorcycle taxis and the normal taxis are not so happy about the - this. But, yeah, I think with the election coming up, a lot of parties are trying to regulate it a little better because, currently, the main problem is that the Ubers and the Grab drivers are not legal to have passengers. They don't have the license. So, that's the main issue where - why the motorbike taxis are - and the - the normal taxi drivers are quite fed up about.Todd: Wow. Well, one thing's for sure: it's very easy to get around this city.Jerri: Yes, definitely.

Todd: Another famous thing about Bangkok is the motorcycle taxis, which really freak a lot of the tourists out.Jerri: I'm sure, I'm sure.Todd: Like, they're afraid to get on one. Can you explain the motorcycle taxis, which are incredibly common?Jerri: Absolutely, so, it can get quite - it's quite scary but it's probably the fastest and most cost-effective way to get around Bangkok, especially during the rush hour. Motorbike - you know, there's like a lot of motorbike taxis in Bangkok and they're at different stations, so you can get them at the - at - right below the skytrain station, mostly. And, yeah, they know the streets very well. They know the - the - the fastest routes to get to your destination. And once you get familiar with it, it's actually not too bad as long as you ask for a helmet. I always think that that's - that is - 'cause it does get quite scary on the main roads with, like, a lot of...Todd: Yeah, women, a lot of times, sit in a very dangerous position...Jerri: Yeah, yeah.Todd: ...because of their skirt. They'll sit sideways...Jerri: Yeah.Todd: ...they don't sit with both legs on - with one leg on each side of the motorcycle, which I always find incredibly dangerous.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: Do you ever sit that way?Jerri: I have to admit, yeah, most of the time I sit that way. And it's quite, like - you don't realize it yourself but when people see it they're quite fascinated by it...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ...like, how we can balance ourself...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ...and then the motorbike is like swerving its way around.Todd: Right, exactly.Jerri: Yeah. Yeah.Todd: Another thing about the - maybe just explaining about the motorcycle taxis - is, so, Bangkok has really long streets. It's not a grid system.Jerri: No.Todd: It's kind of like the roots of a tree. Like, the roads will just go forever...Jerri: Right. Yes.Todd: ...in one direction. So, basically, people take the main lines, like the subway or overhead train, to their stop and then they take the motorcycle taxi to their home, correct?Todd: Yes, yes, correct. That's the most common way, yeah, to do it.Todd: Yeah. And in the mornings and in the evenings it's amazing 'cause it's, like, this fleet of motorcycle.Jerri: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Todd: Like, the whole street is just humming with motorcycles.Jerri: And then you realize how popular they are when you're standing at the station and there's no motorbikes left 'cause, you know, they're all being, yeah, being used.Todd: Yeah. So, like, in your - where you live, do you see the same motorcycle taxis every day?Jerri: Yes, yes.Todd: Do you know them by name?Jerri: Yes. So, like, even the one in front of where I work - they're, like, familiar face. They know where I live, and...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ...they take me home every day. Yeah.Todd: Oh my God, that's so awesome. So, what about new things like Uber and Grab?Jerri: So, it's causing quite a bit of tension in Bangkok. As expected, you know the motorcycle taxis and the normal taxis are not so happy about the - this. But, yeah, I think with the election coming up, a lot of parties are trying to regulate it a little better because, currently, the main problem is that the Ubers and the Grab drivers are not legal to have passengers. They don't have the license. So, that's the main issue where - why the motorbike taxis are - and the - the normal taxi drivers are quite fed up about.Todd: Wow. Well, one thing's for sure: it's very easy to get around this city.Jerri: Yes, definitely.

Todd: Okay, so, I'm here with Jerri, and we are in Bangkok, Thailand, and she's Thai. And I thought we would talk about the interesting transportation systems of Bangkok.Jerri: Yes, very interesting.Todd: Yeah, Bangkok has so many ways to get around. So, the most common, of course, is the BTS.Jerri: Right.Todd: This is the over rail train, right?Jerri: Yes.Todd: And then there's the MRT? Okay, can you talk about them?Jerri: Yeah, so, these two are the new forms of transportation in Thailand. Well, not so new. I think about ten years now we've been having them. But they're probably the most common way to travel into the city. The sky train station is now expanding quite fast, so it's going to, like, other parts that are outside of Bangkok for the outer cities - for people from the outer city to travel into the main business district areas. Yeah, and the price range from 30, 35 baht to, like, 100 baht depending on how many stops you have to take. But it's becoming more and more popular, and so the rush hour, it's quite - it gets quite hectic. I think it can be regulated a little bit better. But I think, yeah, they're working on that.Todd: Yeah, I work in Tokyo and Bangkok both, and when I - when I first came here, the trains were empty. The BTS...Jerri: Right.Todd: ...and now they're like Tokyo.Jerri: Yes.Todd: They're on the same level of packed-ness. It's crazy.Jerri: Right. Yes, yes.Todd: Okay, so then how about the world-famous Thai taxis and tuk-tuks?Jerri: Okay, yes, for sure. So, I'll start with the tuk-tuks. The tuk-tuks are probably the most interesting way to get around town. You see them a lot in Bangkok because they attract tourists. So, you can get them - yeah, they usually - the thing to be careful with is that there's not really a fixed price, so you can get a little bit...Todd: Scammed.Jerri: Scammed, yeah.Todd: Yeah.Jerri: But, yeah. So, I would recommend just asking the locals, like, how- how much would it cost, like, from to get here to there, so you know, like, a little bit about the price range. But if you're - if you're here in Thailand for the first time, it's definitely the way to travel around. You get the wind in your face and, yeah, it's really nice. And then the taxi meters are also - there's more and more every day. And, yeah, it's - it's - it's, like, any other country, I guess. It's air-conditioned, and then the meter starts from 35 Thai baht.Todd: It's true. It is like any other country, but I would say they're very unique in their colors. So...Jerri: Oh, right. Yes, yes, yes.Todd: ...they have the very beautiful technicolor that you only see in Thailand. Yeah.Jerri: So, it goes from pink, green, bright-yellow, and they're all very bright, so...Todd: And orange, correct?Jerri: Yes, yes, yes.Todd: And they look so beautiful, actually. Yeah. Actually, going back to the tuk-tuks, one thing that's - I think - is interesting is that, obviously, they're used for tourists, but also local Thais I see use them kind of to transport a lot of bags and stuff. So, like, if they need to move a bunch of stuff...Jerri: Yes.Todd: ...like bags, or they need, like, I don't know, supplies for a restaurant or something like that...Jerri: Right.Todd: ...you'll see tuk-tuks moving things around.Jerri: Yeah, absolutely. And there's like different - different tuk-tuk sizes. So, some of them are - are more for like transportation, as you mentioned, and then we have more of, like, the bigger - similar to tuk-tuks, they're called songthaews, which you see in, like, the small little streets in certain neighborhoods that people need - just need to get to the main road.Todd: Can - now, can you describe what a songthaew looks like?Jerri: Yes, absolutely. It's like a truck but with a big open area in the back for people to hold onto the rails, so, yeah. I'm not sure if you can imagine the picture but - in a tuk-tuk - you get to sit - it fits about three people max...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ..but songthaew - the back, the open-air area fits about 20 people.

Todd: Okay, so, I'm here with Jerri, and we are in Bangkok, Thailand, and she's Thai. And I thought we would talk about the interesting transportation systems of Bangkok.Jerri: Yes, very interesting.Todd: Yeah, Bangkok has so many ways to get around. So, the most common, of course, is the BTS.Jerri: Right.Todd: This is the over rail train, right?Jerri: Yes.Todd: And then there's the MRT? Okay, can you talk about them?Jerri: Yeah, so, these two are the new forms of transportation in Thailand. Well, not so new. I think about ten years now we've been having them. But they're probably the most common way to travel into the city. The sky train station is now expanding quite fast, so it's going to, like, other parts that are outside of Bangkok for the outer cities - for people from the outer city to travel into the main business district areas. Yeah, and the price range from 30, 35 baht to, like, 100 baht depending on how many stops you have to take. But it's becoming more and more popular, and so the rush hour, it's quite - it gets quite hectic. I think it can be regulated a little bit better. But I think, yeah, they're working on that.Todd: Yeah, I work in Tokyo and Bangkok both, and when I - when I first came here, the trains were empty. The BTS...Jerri: Right.Todd: ...and now they're like Tokyo.Jerri: Yes.Todd: They're on the same level of packed-ness. It's crazy.Jerri: Right. Yes, yes.Todd: Okay, so then how about the world-famous Thai taxis and tuk-tuks?Jerri: Okay, yes, for sure. So, I'll start with the tuk-tuks. The tuk-tuks are probably the most interesting way to get around town. You see them a lot in Bangkok because they attract tourists. So, you can get them - yeah, they usually - the thing to be careful with is that there's not really a fixed price, so you can get a little bit...Todd: Scammed.Jerri: Scammed, yeah.Todd: Yeah.Jerri: But, yeah. So, I would recommend just asking the locals, like, how- how much would it cost, like, from to get here to there, so you know, like, a little bit about the price range. But if you're - if you're here in Thailand for the first time, it's definitely the way to travel around. You get the wind in your face and, yeah, it's really nice. And then the taxi meters are also - there's more and more every day. And, yeah, it's - it's - it's, like, any other country, I guess. It's air-conditioned, and then the meter starts from 35 Thai baht.Todd: It's true. It is like any other country, but I would say they're very unique in their colors. So...Jerri: Oh, right. Yes, yes, yes.Todd: ...they have the very beautiful technicolor that you only see in Thailand. Yeah.Jerri: So, it goes from pink, green, bright-yellow, and they're all very bright, so...Todd: And orange, correct?Jerri: Yes, yes, yes.Todd: And they look so beautiful, actually. Yeah. Actually, going back to the tuk-tuks, one thing that's - I think - is interesting is that, obviously, they're used for tourists, but also local Thais I see use them kind of to transport a lot of bags and stuff. So, like, if they need to move a bunch of stuff...Jerri: Yes.Todd: ...like bags, or they need, like, I don't know, supplies for a restaurant or something like that...Jerri: Right.Todd: ...you'll see tuk-tuks moving things around.Jerri: Yeah, absolutely. And there's like different - different tuk-tuk sizes. So, some of them are - are more for like transportation, as you mentioned, and then we have more of, like, the bigger - similar to tuk-tuks, they're called songthaews, which you see in, like, the small little streets in certain neighborhoods that people need - just need to get to the main road.Todd: Can - now, can you describe what a songthaew looks like?Jerri: Yes, absolutely. It's like a truck but with a big open area in the back for people to hold onto the rails, so, yeah. I'm not sure if you can imagine the picture but - in a tuk-tuk - you get to sit - it fits about three people max...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ..but songthaew - the back, the open-air area fits about 20 people.

Todd: Okay, so, I'm here with Jerri, and we are in Bangkok, Thailand, and she's Thai. And I thought we would talk about the interesting transportation systems of Bangkok.Jerri: Yes, very interesting.Todd: Yeah, Bangkok has so many ways to get around. So, the most common, of course, is the BTS.Jerri: Right.Todd: This is the over rail train, right?Jerri: Yes.Todd: And then there's the MRT? Okay, can you talk about them?Jerri: Yeah, so, these two are the new forms of transportation in Thailand. Well, not so new. I think about ten years now we've been having them. But they're probably the most common way to travel into the city. The sky train station is now expanding quite fast, so it's going to, like, other parts that are outside of Bangkok for the outer cities - for people from the outer city to travel into the main business district areas. Yeah, and the price range from 30, 35 baht to, like, 100 baht depending on how many stops you have to take. But it's becoming more and more popular, and so the rush hour, it's quite - it gets quite hectic. I think it can be regulated a little bit better. But I think, yeah, they're working on that.Todd: Yeah, I work in Tokyo and Bangkok both, and when I - when I first came here, the trains were empty. The BTS...Jerri: Right.Todd: ...and now they're like Tokyo.Jerri: Yes.Todd: They're on the same level of packed-ness. It's crazy.Jerri: Right. Yes, yes.Todd: Okay, so then how about the world-famous Thai taxis and tuk-tuks?Jerri: Okay, yes, for sure. So, I'll start with the tuk-tuks. The tuk-tuks are probably the most interesting way to get around town. You see them a lot in Bangkok because they attract tourists. So, you can get them - yeah, they usually - the thing to be careful with is that there's not really a fixed price, so you can get a little bit...Todd: Scammed.Jerri: Scammed, yeah.Todd: Yeah.Jerri: But, yeah. So, I would recommend just asking the locals, like, how- how much would it cost, like, from to get here to there, so you know, like, a little bit about the price range. But if you're - if you're here in Thailand for the first time, it's definitely the way to travel around. You get the wind in your face and, yeah, it's really nice. And then the taxi meters are also - there's more and more every day. And, yeah, it's - it's - it's, like, any other country, I guess. It's air-conditioned, and then the meter starts from 35 Thai baht.Todd: It's true. It is like any other country, but I would say they're very unique in their colors. So...Jerri: Oh, right. Yes, yes, yes.Todd: ...they have the very beautiful technicolor that you only see in Thailand. Yeah.Jerri: So, it goes from pink, green, bright-yellow, and they're all very bright, so...Todd: And orange, correct?Jerri: Yes, yes, yes.Todd: And they look so beautiful, actually. Yeah. Actually, going back to the tuk-tuks, one thing that's - I think - is interesting is that, obviously, they're used for tourists, but also local Thais I see use them kind of to transport a lot of bags and stuff. So, like, if they need to move a bunch of stuff...Jerri: Yes.Todd: ...like bags, or they need, like, I don't know, supplies for a restaurant or something like that...Jerri: Right.Todd: ...you'll see tuk-tuks moving things around.Jerri: Yeah, absolutely. And there's like different - different tuk-tuk sizes. So, some of them are - are more for like transportation, as you mentioned, and then we have more of, like, the bigger - similar to tuk-tuks, they're called songthaews, which you see in, like, the small little streets in certain neighborhoods that people need - just need to get to the main road.Todd: Can - now, can you describe what a songthaew looks like?Jerri: Yes, absolutely. It's like a truck but with a big open area in the back for people to hold onto the rails, so, yeah. I'm not sure if you can imagine the picture but - in a tuk-tuk - you get to sit - it fits about three people max...Todd: Yeah.Jerri: ..but songthaew - the back, the open-air area fits about 20 people.

Todd: So I'm here with Jerri and she is from Thailand, and we're talking about islands. So these islands in Thailand get a lot of tourists.Jerri: Yes, right.Todd: Thailand probably gets more tourists to its islands than any other country in the world. Is there like any concerns about the environment or development on the islands?Jerri: Yes, of course. Wherever there are people, there's always an effect on the environment. And you see this a lot, especially on the most visited islands such as Phuket and Samoi with the development of condominiums, schools, malls, leads to deforestation, of course, and more pollution. You also see the effect more on the more vulnerable islands like the smaller islands such as, I think, Koh Phi Phi or Koh Lanta. All of the islands used to be full of trees and it used to be like national parks. And now with the people taking speed boats and everything, you really see the oils on the sea. The coral reefs are not as colorful as they should be. All the plastic that comes with, you know, getting food boxes, plastic straws. Yeah. And you really see the ecosystems in the sea are affected.Todd: Yeah, that's what I tell – that's a problem that we have to solve everywhere in the world, it seems like, especially the plastic. Do you know about Easter Island in Chile? You know, with the big stone statues?Jerri: No, not so much.Todd: Yeah, that reminds me of Easter Island which is, you know, famous in Chile for its really large stone monuments like the stone faces. And they couldn't figure out how the people disappeared or why they disappeared, and now they think it's because they cut down all the trees.Jerri: Oh, wow.Todd: And after they cut down all the trees, that basically destroyed the environment, and the people couldn't survive anymore so they had to leave the island. So islands really are vulnerable, especially with their trees, right?Jerri: Right. Yeah, absolutely.Todd: That's one of the reasons I really like Koh Chang, because you can only develop on one side of the road, you know.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: So there's a road around the island and if it's on the beach side you can develop, but anything inland on the other side of the road, there's pretty much no development.Jerri: Yes. But there are also on the positive side you see, you know, when – there are things like bad things happening to environment, you see innovation, people actually coming up with ideas. So a lot of hotel chains, for example, are becoming more sustainable. They're incorporating metal straws, paper straws. So you do see some changes but there's a long way to go.Todd: Yeah, you know, I think that's a great point. Like eventually, business can find the solution.Jerri: Yeah, yeah. That's always…Todd: It's in their best interest, right? Oh, that's really nice. So what about the economy? I guess the biggest jobs are the resorts?Jerri: Yes. So the Thai economy relies on tourists. Yeah, like the hotels, the restaurants, that's where we get our money flowing, I would say.Todd: Right. So that's your of the capital influx from other countries.Jerri: Yes.Todd: Right, okay. So, you live in Bangkok. Out of curiosity, how often do you get to a resort or to the beach?Jerri: More than I should, to be honest. Like I love the islands so every opportunity I get, I'll fly down south, and then visit the different ones. But yeah, as I mentioned, my favorite one would be Koh Pangan. Yeah.Todd: Can you fly directly from Bangkok to Koh Pangan?Jerri: Yes. Well, not directly, but you can fly to the mainland which is Surat Thani. And it's actually nice just to spend a day there because Surat Thani, there's like a culture there and then you get to try the authentic Southern food before you actually go to the islands and it becomes a little bit more like Western, with the taste and everything. So that's my recommendation. And then the next day, you can just go to the pier and take a ferry to the different islands you want to go to.Todd: Oh, wow. So I definitely, definitely want to take your advice.Jerri: Thank you.Todd: Well, that's really nice.

Todd: So I'm here with Jerri and she is from Thailand, and we're talking about islands. So these islands in Thailand get a lot of tourists.Jerri: Yes, right.Todd: Thailand probably gets more tourists to its islands than any other country in the world. Is there like any concerns about the environment or development on the islands?Jerri: Yes, of course. Wherever there are people, there's always an effect on the environment. And you see this a lot, especially on the most visited islands such as Phuket and Samoi with the development of condominiums, schools, malls, leads to deforestation, of course, and more pollution. You also see the effect more on the more vulnerable islands like the smaller islands such as, I think, Koh Phi Phi or Koh Lanta. All of the islands used to be full of trees and it used to be like national parks. And now with the people taking speed boats and everything, you really see the oils on the sea. The coral reefs are not as colorful as they should be. All the plastic that comes with, you know, getting food boxes, plastic straws. Yeah. And you really see the ecosystems in the sea are affected.Todd: Yeah, that's what I tell – that's a problem that we have to solve everywhere in the world, it seems like, especially the plastic. Do you know about Easter Island in Chile? You know, with the big stone statues?Jerri: No, not so much.Todd: Yeah, that reminds me of Easter Island which is, you know, famous in Chile for its really large stone monuments like the stone faces. And they couldn't figure out how the people disappeared or why they disappeared, and now they think it's because they cut down all the trees.Jerri: Oh, wow.Todd: And after they cut down all the trees, that basically destroyed the environment, and the people couldn't survive anymore so they had to leave the island. So islands really are vulnerable, especially with their trees, right?Jerri: Right. Yeah, absolutely.Todd: That's one of the reasons I really like Koh Chang, because you can only develop on one side of the road, you know.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: So there's a road around the island and if it's on the beach side you can develop, but anything inland on the other side of the road, there's pretty much no development.Jerri: Yes. But there are also on the positive side you see, you know, when – there are things like bad things happening to environment, you see innovation, people actually coming up with ideas. So a lot of hotel chains, for example, are becoming more sustainable. They're incorporating metal straws, paper straws. So you do see some changes but there's a long way to go.Todd: Yeah, you know, I think that's a great point. Like eventually, business can find the solution.Jerri: Yeah, yeah. That's always…Todd: It's in their best interest, right? Oh, that's really nice. So what about the economy? I guess the biggest jobs are the resorts?Jerri: Yes. So the Thai economy relies on tourists. Yeah, like the hotels, the restaurants, that's where we get our money flowing, I would say.Todd: Right. So that's your of the capital influx from other countries.Jerri: Yes.Todd: Right, okay. So, you live in Bangkok. Out of curiosity, how often do you get to a resort or to the beach?Jerri: More than I should, to be honest. Like I love the islands so every opportunity I get, I'll fly down south, and then visit the different ones. But yeah, as I mentioned, my favorite one would be Koh Pangan. Yeah.Todd: Can you fly directly from Bangkok to Koh Pangan?Jerri: Yes. Well, not directly, but you can fly to the mainland which is Surat Thani. And it's actually nice just to spend a day there because Surat Thani, there's like a culture there and then you get to try the authentic Southern food before you actually go to the islands and it becomes a little bit more like Western, with the taste and everything. So that's my recommendation. And then the next day, you can just go to the pier and take a ferry to the different islands you want to go to.Todd: Oh, wow. So I definitely, definitely want to take your advice.Jerri: Thank you.Todd: Well, that's really nice.

Todd: So I'm here with Jerri and she is from Thailand, and we're talking about islands. So these islands in Thailand get a lot of tourists.Jerri: Yes, right.Todd: Thailand probably gets more tourists to its islands than any other country in the world. Is there like any concerns about the environment or development on the islands?Jerri: Yes, of course. Wherever there are people, there's always an effect on the environment. And you see this a lot, especially on the most visited islands such as Phuket and Samoi with the development of condominiums, schools, malls, leads to deforestation, of course, and more pollution. You also see the effect more on the more vulnerable islands like the smaller islands such as, I think, Koh Phi Phi or Koh Lanta. All of the islands used to be full of trees and it used to be like national parks. And now with the people taking speed boats and everything, you really see the oils on the sea. The coral reefs are not as colorful as they should be. All the plastic that comes with, you know, getting food boxes, plastic straws. Yeah. And you really see the ecosystems in the sea are affected.Todd: Yeah, that's what I tell – that's a problem that we have to solve everywhere in the world, it seems like, especially the plastic. Do you know about Easter Island in Chile? You know, with the big stone statues?Jerri: No, not so much.Todd: Yeah, that reminds me of Easter Island which is, you know, famous in Chile for its really large stone monuments like the stone faces. And they couldn't figure out how the people disappeared or why they disappeared, and now they think it's because they cut down all the trees.Jerri: Oh, wow.Todd: And after they cut down all the trees, that basically destroyed the environment, and the people couldn't survive anymore so they had to leave the island. So islands really are vulnerable, especially with their trees, right?Jerri: Right. Yeah, absolutely.Todd: That's one of the reasons I really like Koh Chang, because you can only develop on one side of the road, you know.Jerri: Yeah.Todd: So there's a road around the island and if it's on the beach side you can develop, but anything inland on the other side of the road, there's pretty much no development.Jerri: Yes. But there are also on the positive side you see, you know, when – there are things like bad things happening to environment, you see innovation, people actually coming up with ideas. So a lot of hotel chains, for example, are becoming more sustainable. They're incorporating metal straws, paper straws. So you do see some changes but there's a long way to go.Todd: Yeah, you know, I think that's a great point. Like eventually, business can find the solution.Jerri: Yeah, yeah. That's always…Todd: It's in their best interest, right? Oh, that's really nice. So what about the economy? I guess the biggest jobs are the resorts?Jerri: Yes. So the Thai economy relies on tourists. Yeah, like the hotels, the restaurants, that's where we get our money flowing, I would say.Todd: Right. So that's your of the capital influx from other countries.Jerri: Yes.Todd: Right, okay. So, you live in Bangkok. Out of curiosity, how often do you get to a resort or to the beach?Jerri: More than I should, to be honest. Like I love the islands so every opportunity I get, I'll fly down south, and then visit the different ones. But yeah, as I mentioned, my favorite one would be Koh Pangan. Yeah.Todd: Can you fly directly from Bangkok to Koh Pangan?Jerri: Yes. Well, not directly, but you can fly to the mainland which is Surat Thani. And it's actually nice just to spend a day there because Surat Thani, there's like a culture there and then you get to try the authentic Southern food before you actually go to the islands and it becomes a little bit more like Western, with the taste and everything. So that's my recommendation. And then the next day, you can just go to the pier and take a ferry to the different islands you want to go to.Todd: Oh, wow. So I definitely, definitely want to take your advice.Jerri: Thank you.Todd: Well, that's really nice.

Todd: I'm here with Natalie and she is working in Bangkok. And how long have you been here?Natalie: I've been here about 10 months.Todd: It's interesting to hear your thoughts on Bangkok because I was an English teacher here over 20 years ago from 1994 to 1998. It was my first teaching job and Bangkok was very different then than it is now. Now I would say it's a pretty amazing cosmopolitan city. Could you agree?Natalie: Yeah, that's part of the reason why we chose it. My partner and I traveled for about a year and a half and we said, "Okay, now let's live somewhere." So we decided to move to Bangkok because it has this great balance of you're still in Southeast Asia, so it still feels like it's developing, it's on its way to something, perhaps what we see Japan or China as now, but it's not quite there yet. And also you can get all the modern conveniences that you could possibly need here in the city. It's really well connected, so it feels like a regular metropolitan city, but at the same time it still feels like you're living in Southeast Asia, which is really cool.Todd: It has done an amazing job of one becoming this just bustling, beautiful cosmopolitan paradise. I mean, the skyline was not here 25 years ago. So all the buildings that they've built or it's just amazing. So now it almost rivals Hong Kong or New York and years ago they didn't have that. So in terms of the city planning, it's just phenomenal what they've done. But also, like you said, they've kept the kind of original cultural vibe to the city-Natalie: Absolutely.Todd: Which is pretty amazing.Natalie: You have different neighborhoods that you can live in. So there is the, I guess a main arteryof Bangkok is the Skytrain. So we call it the BTS. And this a, I guess what they were considered to be high speed and transportation rail system that goes right through the heart of Bangkok. So a lot of the neighborhoods that I would talk about kind of populated around the Skytrain. So you will have pockets of Bangkok that will feel very Thai. So they will be further out on the BTS Skytrain. But you can still get to the heart of Bangkok where all the malls are, or perhaps where all the business areas are within, I don't know, 20 minutes. And obviously, with it being in Southeast Asia, it's still really cheap.Natalie: You can go way out into the areas that are super Thai. You get amazing street food, you'll see very few tourists and then you can, within 20 minutes you can be in, say the Japanese area, which is more expensive and it has a lot of Western restaurants and obviously Japanese restaurants. 20 minutes later you can be in the tourist center where you'll see all the malls and perhaps the more city side of Bangkok. So it's very accessible.Todd: Yeah, it's interesting. How have you been to Dubai?Natalie: I haven't, no.Todd: What's interesting is Dubai and Bangkok have almost the exact same developmental model. So what they did is they built a nice train line, an elevated train and then along the train they built a bunch of shopping malls and condos and they've built a world-class airport and made it a hub for travel to other areas. And even though Dubai and Bangkok they're so different culturally, it's quite interesting to see that economically they're kind of thriving onthe same model. They get lots of international travel, they have a lot of things for tourists to do when they go there. They get a lot of people now that want to retire or maybe live there.Natalie: Yeah. The people that I speak to you about that they're saying the same thing. Bangkok is almost the center of Southeast Asia. You can get pretty much anywhere in the world on a long-haul flight. So you can fly to the UK directly from Bangkok, which is insane. You don't have to stop anywhere. If you want to go to Vietnam from somewhere in the West, you have to stop in Bangkok for the most part. There are very few direct flights. And you can get to the likes of Japan and China within just five or six hours.

Todd: I'm here with Natalie and she is working in Bangkok. And how long have you been here?Natalie: I've been here about 10 months.Todd: It's interesting to hear your thoughts on Bangkok because I was an English teacher here over 20 years ago from 1994 to 1998. It was my first teaching job and Bangkok was very different then than it is now. Now I would say it's a pretty amazing cosmopolitan city. Could you agree?Natalie: Yeah, that's part of the reason why we chose it. My partner and I traveled for about a year and a half and we said, "Okay, now let's live somewhere." So we decided to move to Bangkok because it has this great balance of you're still in Southeast Asia, so it still feels like it's developing, it's on its way to something, perhaps what we see Japan or China as now, but it's not quite there yet. And also you can get all the modern conveniences that you could possibly need here in the city. It's really well connected, so it feels like a regular metropolitan city, but at the same time it still feels like you're living in Southeast Asia, which is really cool.Todd: It has done an amazing job of one becoming this just bustling, beautiful cosmopolitan paradise. I mean, the skyline was not here 25 years ago. So all the buildings that they've built or it's just amazing. So now it almost rivals Hong Kong or New York and years ago they didn't have that. So in terms of the city planning, it's just phenomenal what they've done. But also, like you said, they've kept the kind of original cultural vibe to the city-Natalie: Absolutely.Todd: Which is pretty amazing.Natalie: You have different neighborhoods that you can live in. So there is the, I guess a main arteryof Bangkok is the Skytrain. So we call it the BTS. And this a, I guess what they were considered to be high speed and transportation rail system that goes right through the heart of Bangkok. So a lot of the neighborhoods that I would talk about kind of populated around the Skytrain. So you will have pockets of Bangkok that will feel very Thai. So they will be further out on the BTS Skytrain. But you can still get to the heart of Bangkok where all the malls are, or perhaps where all the business areas are within, I don't know, 20 minutes. And obviously, with it being in Southeast Asia, it's still really cheap.Natalie: You can go way out into the areas that are super Thai. You get amazing street food, you'll see very few tourists and then you can, within 20 minutes you can be in, say the Japanese area, which is more expensive and it has a lot of Western restaurants and obviously Japanese restaurants. 20 minutes later you can be in the tourist center where you'll see all the malls and perhaps the more city side of Bangkok. So it's very accessible.Todd: Yeah, it's interesting. How have you been to Dubai?Natalie: I haven't, no.Todd: What's interesting is Dubai and Bangkok have almost the exact same developmental model. So what they did is they built a nice train line, an elevated train and then along the train they built a bunch of shopping malls and condos and they've built a world-class airport and made it a hub for travel to other areas. And even though Dubai and Bangkok they're so different culturally, it's quite interesting to see that economically they're kind of thriving onthe same model. They get lots of international travel, they have a lot of things for tourists to do when they go there. They get a lot of people now that want to retire or maybe live there.Natalie: Yeah. The people that I speak to you about that they're saying the same thing. Bangkok is almost the center of Southeast Asia. You can get pretty much anywhere in the world on a long-haul flight. So you can fly to the UK directly from Bangkok, which is insane. You don't have to stop anywhere. If you want to go to Vietnam from somewhere in the West, you have to stop in Bangkok for the most part. There are very few direct flights. And you can get to the likes of Japan and China within just five or six hours.

Todd: I'm here with Natalie and she is working in Bangkok. And how long have you been here?Natalie: I've been here about 10 months.Todd: It's interesting to hear your thoughts on Bangkok because I was an English teacher here over 20 years ago from 1994 to 1998. It was my first teaching job and Bangkok was very different then than it is now. Now I would say it's a pretty amazing cosmopolitan city. Could you agree?Natalie: Yeah, that's part of the reason why we chose it. My partner and I traveled for about a year and a half and we said, "Okay, now let's live somewhere." So we decided to move to Bangkok because it has this great balance of you're still in Southeast Asia, so it still feels like it's developing, it's on its way to something, perhaps what we see Japan or China as now, but it's not quite there yet. And also you can get all the modern conveniences that you could possibly need here in the city. It's really well connected, so it feels like a regular metropolitan city, but at the same time it still feels like you're living in Southeast Asia, which is really cool.Todd: It has done an amazing job of one becoming this just bustling, beautiful cosmopolitan paradise. I mean, the skyline was not here 25 years ago. So all the buildings that they've built or it's just amazing. So now it almost rivals Hong Kong or New York and years ago they didn't have that. So in terms of the city planning, it's just phenomenal what they've done. But also, like you said, they've kept the kind of original cultural vibe to the city-Natalie: Absolutely.Todd: Which is pretty amazing.Natalie: You have different neighborhoods that you can live in. So there is the, I guess a main arteryof Bangkok is the Skytrain. So we call it the BTS. And this a, I guess what they were considered to be high speed and transportation rail system that goes right through the heart of Bangkok. So a lot of the neighborhoods that I would talk about kind of populated around the Skytrain. So you will have pockets of Bangkok that will feel very Thai. So they will be further out on the BTS Skytrain. But you can still get to the heart of Bangkok where all the malls are, or perhaps where all the business areas are within, I don't know, 20 minutes. And obviously, with it being in Southeast Asia, it's still really cheap.Natalie: You can go way out into the areas that are super Thai. You get amazing street food, you'll see very few tourists and then you can, within 20 minutes you can be in, say the Japanese area, which is more expensive and it has a lot of Western restaurants and obviously Japanese restaurants. 20 minutes later you can be in the tourist center where you'll see all the malls and perhaps the more city side of Bangkok. So it's very accessible.Todd: Yeah, it's interesting. How have you been to Dubai?Natalie: I haven't, no.Todd: What's interesting is Dubai and Bangkok have almost the exact same developmental model. So what they did is they built a nice train line, an elevated train and then along the train they built a bunch of shopping malls and condos and they've built a world-class airport and made it a hub for travel to other areas. And even though Dubai and Bangkok they're so different culturally, it's quite interesting to see that economically they're kind of thriving onthe same model. They get lots of international travel, they have a lot of things for tourists to do when they go there. They get a lot of people now that want to retire or maybe live there.Natalie: Yeah. The people that I speak to you about that they're saying the same thing. Bangkok is almost the center of Southeast Asia. You can get pretty much anywhere in the world on a long-haul flight. So you can fly to the UK directly from Bangkok, which is insane. You don't have to stop anywhere. If you want to go to Vietnam from somewhere in the West, you have to stop in Bangkok for the most part. There are very few direct flights. And you can get to the likes of Japan and China within just five or six hours.

Todd: Meg, I'm going to give you a test.Meg: Okay.Todd: It's a personality test.Meg: Uh-oh.Todd: And we want to know, are you a pack rat?Meg: Am I a pack rat?Todd: Right. Do you save things, do you keep things, or are you a minimalist? Do you have very few things in your house?Meg: Well, I think I try to be a minimalist, but I'm a little bit of a pack rat.Todd: Okay. We'll take the test, let's see. Okay, the first question is, how many books do you have in your house?Meg: Not counting Kindle?Todd: Not counting Kindle. Physical books, how many books do you have?Meg: Physical books, I think I have around 15 books.Todd: Oh. Oh.Meg: Is that a lot?Todd: That's bad.Meg: That's so many?Todd: Yeah.Meg: Really?Todd: So negative-Meg: Uh-oh.Todd: Negative ... Boo. Negative one means pack rat positive one means minimalist. Okay. Next question. How many shoes do you have?Meg: Can I not answer that question?Todd: No. You have to say.Meg: Okay. I think I have 25 pairs of shoes.Todd: Oh my gosh. I'm giving you negative two points.Meg: No, just one.Todd: All right. Next question is, how many blankets do you have?Meg: Blankets? I think I have 10 blankets.Todd: Oh my gosh. I knew you were a pack rat. I knew it, I knew it. Now you're negative five.Meg: But you need blankets for the cold winter.Todd: You only need one blanket.Meg: But if you have friends visiting you, you need more blankets.Todd: Okay.Meg: I have a lot of friends.Todd: Wow. That's a good point. Okay, next question. How many umbrellas do you have?Meg: I think I have around five or six umbrellas.Todd: Wow. And you live alone, correct?Meg: Yes. I live alone.Todd: Okay. So a pack rat is somebody who does not get rid of things they don't need. So, do you need five umbrellas?Meg: I do need those umbrellas.Todd: Why do you need ...Meg: I'll tell you. I'll tell you why. One is a very small umbrella that's easy to carry. Another umbrella is very large for a really rainy day. A third umbrella is decorative and very pretty. The fourth umbrella is for the sun. And the fifth umbrella is clear, to use on a really windy day.Todd: That's interesting. Now, the fourth umbrella, for the sun, that's called a parasol, correct?Meg: I guess so, but that sounds a little old-fashioned.Todd: Okay. I won't consider that. I consider an umbrella for the rain only. So, we'll say four.Meg: Four.Todd: So let's just ...Meg: Do I get a point back?Todd: You do. But let's do a recap. You are single, you live alone.Meg: Yes.Todd: You have four umbrellas.Meg: Yes.Todd: You have 10 blankets.Meg: Yes.Todd: You have 25 pairs of shoes.Meg: Correct.Todd: And you have 15 books?Meg: 15 books.Todd: I'm sorry, Meg, but you qualify as a pack rat.Meg: Oh no.Todd: You are not a minimalist. We're taking away your minimalist membership.Meg: Oh. Well I guess I need to get rid of some things, huh? And what about you? Are you a pack rat or a minimalist?Todd: I'm pretty much a minimalist, I think, because I only have two bags of stuff.Meg: Only two bags?Todd: Yeah. So, you can take everything I have and put it in two big suitcases.Meg: So you don't have 15 books?Todd: No, I have maybe four books.Meg: Only four books.Todd: And they're very small paperback books.Meg: What about blankets?Todd: I have one blanket.Meg: Just one.Todd: Just one.Meg: So if visitors come to your house ...Todd: That is true.Meg: ... they're out of luck.Todd: When somebody comes to my house, I ask my neighbor to borrow a blanket. I do. Why?Meg: You borrow a blanket?Todd: ... is that funny? Yes. This is-Meg: Wow.Todd: I am such a minimalist, my friend told me, he said I am the only person that has ...Meg: One blanket.Todd: No. A spoon and a fork.Meg: A spoon and a fork?Todd: That's it. I have one.Meg: Okay. So basically, your house is not prepared for any visitors.Todd: That's true.Meg: Whereas my house is prepared for many visitors.Todd: That's true.Meg: Okay. Umbrellas?Todd: I have maybe two.Meg: Two. So why two?Todd: Because I can't remember if I have one or I will leave the house and I won't take it, and so then I need to buy one and then...Meg: And then you get rid of one?Todd: No, then I just never buy another one. I'm pretty good.Meg: Oh.Todd: Only two.Meg: Okay.Todd: But shoes?Meg: Shoes.Todd: I only have four pairs of shoes.Meg: What is the purpose of each pair of shoes?Todd: I have one pair of shoes for work. Nice dress shoes. I have two sneakers, one pair of sneakers for running, jogging, one pair of sneakers for fashion, and one pair of Futsal shoes for soccer. That's it. That's it.Meg: Wow. Well, I have to say, you really sound like a minimalist.Todd: Yeah, and you really sound like a pack rat.

Abidemi: Todd, are you good at saving money?Todd: No, I'm terrible. I waste money. I waste so much money.Abidemi: How?Todd: Well, I don't buy things on sale. I don't use coupons. I buy anything I see.Abidemi: So, when I shop, I don't look at prices. I just see the food or the thing and I get it and I buy it and I pay for it. And, then it's sometimes very expensive, so I just waste money. I don't budget. I need to budget my money but I don't budget my money.Todd: What about you? Are you good at saving money?Abidemi: I don't think I'm too bad at saving money. I look at prices a lot. I also buy a lot of things on sale, so I'm able to save some money.Todd: So, you look for discounts.Abidemi: Yes, I do.Todd: Do you use coupons or special offers?Abidemi: No, I don't, but if I see some I will use them.Todd: So, do you waste money on anything? Like, maybe eating out, buying clothes, renting movies?Abidemi: I waste money on buying clothes.Todd: Oh, okay!Abidemi: But, I save a little bit because I buy them on sale.Todd: Ah, do you buy things online?Abidemi: No, I don't. I usually go into the stores to shop.Todd: I'm good with clothes too, so I don't spend much money on clothes. I only shop maybe once a year. Or, I only shop if I need something, like it's really cold and I need a jacket.Abidemi: I see.Todd: And, I'm really bad, so I often only wear clothes people give to me.Abidemi: That's good!Todd: Yeah, so I get shirts or ties for Christmas gifts or a birthday gift, and I do that. My mom often asks ... every year, my mom asks, "What do you want for Christmas?", "What do you want for your birthday?"Todd: And I'll say, "Underwear and socks" or "Socks and T-shirts". And so, she buys them for me and then I don't have to buy them.Abidemi: Wow. Sounds like you're an easy person to give a present to.Todd: Yes, for clothes. Yes, for clothes. But, I waste money on computers and electronics and those things are expensive, so I buy a new computer every year. I have four computers now in my house.Abidemi: Wow.Todd: I have five mobile phones.Abidemi: Wow.Todd: I have an iPad. I have lots of electronic equipment. So, I spend so much money on those things.Abidemi: I waste money on traveling.Todd: Ah, yeah.Abidemi: Every year, I take about one or two trips to different countries, so that's where a lot of my money go.Todd: Yeah, traveling is expensive.Abidemi: Yes, yes.Todd: But, when you travel, do you save money? Do you stay at cheap hotels? Or, do you buy cheap plane tickets?Abidemi: I try to. I try to all the time. But, usually the plane ticket is so expensive that a lot of my savings is already gone.Todd: Yeah, I know. I buy my tickets online, usually with Expedia. And, it's cheap. It's pretty cheap. I waste money on food. I eat out almost every day.Abidemi: Wow.Todd: Or, I buy my dinner at the supermarket almost every day. Do you waste money on food?Abidemi: No, I don't. I usually get bored if I eat out too much, because even though I am not a very good cook, there are some thing that I cook that I like to eat. So, I would miss those things. So, no, I don't waste money on eating out.Todd: Ah, that's interesting. So, you save money, I waste money. You have to teach me your tricks. You have to teach me your tips on saving money.Abidemi: Please teach me how to get cheap travel tickets.Todd: It's a deal.Abidemi: Thanks.

Todd: Meg, I'm going to give you a test.Meg: Okay.Todd: It's a personality test.Meg: Uh-oh.Todd: And we want to know, are you a pack rat?Meg: Am I a pack rat?Todd: Right. Do you save things, do you keep things, or are you a minimalist? Do you have very few things in your house?Meg: Well, I think I try to be a minimalist, but I'm a little bit of a pack rat.Todd: Okay. We'll take the test, let's see. Okay, the first question is, how many books do you have in your house?Meg: Not counting Kindle?Todd: Not counting Kindle. Physical books, how many books do you have?Meg: Physical books, I think I have around 15 books.Todd: Oh. Oh.Meg: Is that a lot?Todd: That's bad.Meg: That's so many?Todd: Yeah.Meg: Really?Todd: So negative-Meg: Uh-oh.Todd: Negative ... Boo. Negative one means pack rat positive one means minimalist. Okay. Next question. How many shoes do you have?Meg: Can I not answer that question?Todd: No. You have to say.Meg: Okay. I think I have 25 pairs of shoes.Todd: Oh my gosh. I'm giving you negative two points.Meg: No, just one.Todd: All right. Next question is, how many blankets do you have?Meg: Blankets? I think I have 10 blankets.Todd: Oh my gosh. I knew you were a pack rat. I knew it, I knew it. Now you're negative five.Meg: But you need blankets for the cold winter.Todd: You only need one blanket.Meg: But if you have friends visiting you, you need more blankets.Todd: Okay.Meg: I have a lot of friends.Todd: Wow. That's a good point. Okay, next question. How many umbrellas do you have?Meg: I think I have around five or six umbrellas.Todd: Wow. And you live alone, correct?Meg: Yes. I live alone.Todd: Okay. So a pack rat is somebody who does not get rid of things they don't need. So, do you need five umbrellas?Meg: I do need those umbrellas.Todd: Why do you need ...Meg: I'll tell you. I'll tell you why. One is a very small umbrella that's easy to carry. Another umbrella is very large for a really rainy day. A third umbrella is decorative and very pretty. The fourth umbrella is for the sun. And the fifth umbrella is clear, to use on a really windy day.Todd: That's interesting. Now, the fourth umbrella, for the sun, that's called a parasol, correct?Meg: I guess so, but that sounds a little old-fashioned.Todd: Okay. I won't consider that. I consider an umbrella for the rain only. So, we'll say four.Meg: Four.Todd: So let's just ...Meg: Do I get a point back?Todd: You do. But let's do a recap. You are single, you live alone.Meg: Yes.Todd: You have four umbrellas.Meg: Yes.Todd: You have 10 blankets.Meg: Yes.Todd: You have 25 pairs of shoes.Meg: Correct.Todd: And you have 15 books?Meg: 15 books.Todd: I'm sorry, Meg, but you qualify as a pack rat.Meg: Oh no.Todd: You are not a minimalist. We're taking away your minimalist membership.Meg: Oh. Well I guess I need to get rid of some things, huh? And what about you? Are you a pack rat or a minimalist?Todd: I'm pretty much a minimalist, I think, because I only have two bags of stuff.Meg: Only two bags?Todd: Yeah. So, you can take everything I have and put it in two big suitcases.Meg: So you don't have 15 books?Todd: No, I have maybe four books.Meg: Only four books.Todd: And they're very small paperback books.Meg: What about blankets?Todd: I have one blanket.Meg: Just one.Todd: Just one.Meg: So if visitors come to your house ...Todd: That is true.Meg: ... they're out of luck.Todd: When somebody comes to my house, I ask my neighbor to borrow a blanket. I do. Why?Meg: You borrow a blanket?Todd: ... is that funny? Yes. This is-Meg: Wow.Todd: I am such a minimalist, my friend told me, he said I am the only person that has ...Meg: One blanket.Todd: No. A spoon and a fork.Meg: A spoon and a fork?Todd: That's it. I have one.Meg: Okay. So basically, your house is not prepared for any visitors.Todd: That's true.Meg: Whereas my house is prepared for many visitors.Todd: That's true.Meg: Okay. Umbrellas?Todd: I have maybe two.Meg: Two. So why two?Todd: Because I can't remember if I have one or I will leave the house and I won't take it, and so then I need to buy one and then...Meg: And then you get rid of one?Todd: No, then I just never buy another one. I'm pretty good.Meg: Oh.Todd: Only two.Meg: Okay.Todd: But shoes?Meg: Shoes.Todd: I only have four pairs of shoes.Meg: What is the purpose of each pair of shoes?Todd: I have one pair of shoes for work. Nice dress shoes. I have two sneakers, one pair of sneakers for running, jogging, one pair of sneakers for fashion, and one pair of Futsal shoes for soccer. That's it. That's it.Meg: Wow. Well, I have to say, you really sound like a minimalist.Todd: Yeah, and you really sound like a pack rat.

Abidemi: Todd, are you good at saving money?Todd: No, I'm terrible. I waste money. I waste so much money.Abidemi: How?Todd: Well, I don't buy things on sale. I don't use coupons. I buy anything I see.Abidemi: So, when I shop, I don't look at prices. I just see the food or the thing and I get it and I buy it and I pay for it. And, then it's sometimes very expensive, so I just waste money. I don't budget. I need to budget my money but I don't budget my money.Todd: What about you? Are you good at saving money?Abidemi: I don't think I'm too bad at saving money. I look at prices a lot. I also buy a lot of things on sale, so I'm able to save some money.Todd: So, you look for discounts.Abidemi: Yes, I do.Todd: Do you use coupons or special offers?Abidemi: No, I don't, but if I see some I will use them.Todd: So, do you waste money on anything? Like, maybe eating out, buying clothes, renting movies?Abidemi: I waste money on buying clothes.Todd: Oh, okay!Abidemi: But, I save a little bit because I buy them on sale.Todd: Ah, do you buy things online?Abidemi: No, I don't. I usually go into the stores to shop.Todd: I'm good with clothes too, so I don't spend much money on clothes. I only shop maybe once a year. Or, I only shop if I need something, like it's really cold and I need a jacket.Abidemi: I see.Todd: And, I'm really bad, so I often only wear clothes people give to me.Abidemi: That's good!Todd: Yeah, so I get shirts or ties for Christmas gifts or a birthday gift, and I do that. My mom often asks ... every year, my mom asks, "What do you want for Christmas?", "What do you want for your birthday?"Todd: And I'll say, "Underwear and socks" or "Socks and T-shirts". And so, she buys them for me and then I don't have to buy them.Abidemi: Wow. Sounds like you're an easy person to give a present to.Todd: Yes, for clothes. Yes, for clothes. But, I waste money on computers and electronics and those things are expensive, so I buy a new computer every year. I have four computers now in my house.Abidemi: Wow.Todd: I have five mobile phones.Abidemi: Wow.Todd: I have an iPad. I have lots of electronic equipment. So, I spend so much money on those things.Abidemi: I waste money on traveling.Todd: Ah, yeah.Abidemi: Every year, I take about one or two trips to different countries, so that's where a lot of my money go.Todd: Yeah, traveling is expensive.Abidemi: Yes, yes.Todd: But, when you travel, do you save money? Do you stay at cheap hotels? Or, do you buy cheap plane tickets?Abidemi: I try to. I try to all the time. But, usually the plane ticket is so expensive that a lot of my savings is already gone.Todd: Yeah, I know. I buy my tickets online, usually with Expedia. And, it's cheap. It's pretty cheap. I waste money on food. I eat out almost every day.Abidemi: Wow.Todd: Or, I buy my dinner at the supermarket almost every day. Do you waste money on food?Abidemi: No, I don't. I usually get bored if I eat out too much, because even though I am not a very good cook, there are some thing that I cook that I like to eat. So, I would miss those things. So, no, I don't waste money on eating out.Todd: Ah, that's interesting. So, you save money, I waste money. You have to teach me your tricks. You have to teach me your tips on saving money.Abidemi: Please teach me how to get cheap travel tickets.Todd: It's a deal.Abidemi: Thanks.

Abidemi: Todd, are you good at saving money?Todd: No, I'm terrible. I waste money. I waste so much money.Abidemi: How?Todd: Well, I don't buy things on sale. I don't use coupons. I buy anything I see.Abidemi: So, when I shop, I don't look at prices. I just see the food or the thing and I get it and I buy it and I pay for it. And, then it's sometimes very expensive, so I just waste money. I don't budget. I need to budget my money but I don't budget my money.Todd: What about you? Are you good at saving money?Abidemi: I don't think I'm too bad at saving money. I look at prices a lot. I also buy a lot of things on sale, so I'm able to save some money.Todd: So, you look for discounts.Abidemi: Yes, I do.Todd: Do you use coupons or special offers?Abidemi: No, I don't, but if I see some I will use them.Todd: So, do you waste money on anything? Like, maybe eating out, buying clothes, renting movies?Abidemi: I waste money on buying clothes.Todd: Oh, okay!Abidemi: But, I save a little bit because I buy them on sale.Todd: Ah, do you buy things online?Abidemi: No, I don't. I usually go into the stores to shop.Todd: I'm good with clothes too, so I don't spend much money on clothes. I only shop maybe once a year. Or, I only shop if I need something, like it's really cold and I need a jacket.Abidemi: I see.Todd: And, I'm really bad, so I often only wear clothes people give to me.Abidemi: That's good!Todd: Yeah, so I get shirts or ties for Christmas gifts or a birthday gift, and I do that. My mom often asks ... every year, my mom asks, "What do you want for Christmas?", "What do you want for your birthday?"Todd: And I'll say, "Underwear and socks" or "Socks and T-shirts". And so, she buys them for me and then I don't have to buy them.Abidemi: Wow. Sounds like you're an easy person to give a present to.Todd: Yes, for clothes. Yes, for clothes. But, I waste money on computers and electronics and those things are expensive, so I buy a new computer every year. I have four computers now in my house.Abidemi: Wow.Todd: I have five mobile phones.Abidemi: Wow.Todd: I have an iPad. I have lots of electronic equipment. So, I spend so much money on those things.Abidemi: I waste money on traveling.Todd: Ah, yeah.Abidemi: Every year, I take about one or two trips to different countries, so that's where a lot of my money go.Todd: Yeah, traveling is expensive.Abidemi: Yes, yes.Todd: But, when you travel, do you save money? Do you stay at cheap hotels? Or, do you buy cheap plane tickets?Abidemi: I try to. I try to all the time. But, usually the plane ticket is so expensive that a lot of my savings is already gone.Todd: Yeah, I know. I buy my tickets online, usually with Expedia. And, it's cheap. It's pretty cheap. I waste money on food. I eat out almost every day.Abidemi: Wow.Todd: Or, I buy my dinner at the supermarket almost every day. Do you waste money on food?Abidemi: No, I don't. I usually get bored if I eat out too much, because even though I am not a very good cook, there are some thing that I cook that I like to eat. So, I would miss those things. So, no, I don't waste money on eating out.Todd: Ah, that's interesting. So, you save money, I waste money. You have to teach me your tricks. You have to teach me your tips on saving money.Abidemi: Please teach me how to get cheap travel tickets.Todd: It's a deal.Abidemi: Thanks.

Todd: Meg, I'm going to give you a test.Meg: Okay.Todd: It's a personality test.Meg: Uh-oh.Todd: And we want to know, are you a pack rat?Meg: Am I a pack rat?Todd: Right. Do you save things, do you keep things, or are you a minimalist? Do you have very few things in your house?Meg: Well, I think I try to be a minimalist, but I'm a little bit of a pack rat.Todd: Okay. We'll take the test, let's see. Okay, the first question is, how many books do you have in your house?Meg: Not counting Kindle?Todd: Not counting Kindle. Physical books, how many books do you have?Meg: Physical books, I think I have around 15 books.Todd: Oh. Oh.Meg: Is that a lot?Todd: That's bad.Meg: That's so many?Todd: Yeah.Meg: Really?Todd: So negative-Meg: Uh-oh.Todd: Negative ... Boo. Negative one means pack rat positive one means minimalist. Okay. Next question. How many shoes do you have?Meg: Can I not answer that question?Todd: No. You have to say.Meg: Okay. I think I have 25 pairs of shoes.Todd: Oh my gosh. I'm giving you negative two points.Meg: No, just one.Todd: All right. Next question is, how many blankets do you have?Meg: Blankets? I think I have 10 blankets.Todd: Oh my gosh. I knew you were a pack rat. I knew it, I knew it. Now you're negative five.Meg: But you need blankets for the cold winter.Todd: You only need one blanket.Meg: But if you have friends visiting you, you need more blankets.Todd: Okay.Meg: I have a lot of friends.Todd: Wow. That's a good point. Okay, next question. How many umbrellas do you have?Meg: I think I have around five or six umbrellas.Todd: Wow. And you live alone, correct?Meg: Yes. I live alone.Todd: Okay. So a pack rat is somebody who does not get rid of things they don't need. So, do you need five umbrellas?Meg: I do need those umbrellas.Todd: Why do you need ...Meg: I'll tell you. I'll tell you why. One is a very small umbrella that's easy to carry. Another umbrella is very large for a really rainy day. A third umbrella is decorative and very pretty. The fourth umbrella is for the sun. And the fifth umbrella is clear, to use on a really windy day.Todd: That's interesting. Now, the fourth umbrella, for the sun, that's called a parasol, correct?Meg: I guess so, but that sounds a little old-fashioned.Todd: Okay. I won't consider that. I consider an umbrella for the rain only. So, we'll say four.Meg: Four.Todd: So let's just ...Meg: Do I get a point back?Todd: You do. But let's do a recap. You are single, you live alone.Meg: Yes.Todd: You have four umbrellas.Meg: Yes.Todd: You have 10 blankets.Meg: Yes.Todd: You have 25 pairs of shoes.Meg: Correct.Todd: And you have 15 books?Meg: 15 books.Todd: I'm sorry, Meg, but you qualify as a pack rat.Meg: Oh no.Todd: You are not a minimalist. We're taking away your minimalist membership.Meg: Oh. Well I guess I need to get rid of some things, huh? And what about you? Are you a pack rat or a minimalist?Todd: I'm pretty much a minimalist, I think, because I only have two bags of stuff.Meg: Only two bags?Todd: Yeah. So, you can take everything I have and put it in two big suitcases.Meg: So you don't have 15 books?Todd: No, I have maybe four books.Meg: Only four books.Todd: And they're very small paperback books.Meg: What about blankets?Todd: I have one blanket.Meg: Just one.Todd: Just one.Meg: So if visitors come to your house ...Todd: That is true.Meg: ... they're out of luck.Todd: When somebody comes to my house, I ask my neighbor to borrow a blanket. I do. Why?Meg: You borrow a blanket?Todd: ... is that funny? Yes. This is-Meg: Wow.Todd: I am such a minimalist, my friend told me, he said I am the only person that has ...Meg: One blanket.Todd: No. A spoon and a fork.Meg: A spoon and a fork?Todd: That's it. I have one.Meg: Okay. So basically, your house is not prepared for any visitors.Todd: That's true.Meg: Whereas my house is prepared for many visitors.Todd: That's true.Meg: Okay. Umbrellas?Todd: I have maybe two.Meg: Two. So why two?Todd: Because I can't remember if I have one or I will leave the house and I won't take it, and so then I need to buy one and then...Meg: And then you get rid of one?Todd: No, then I just never buy another one. I'm pretty good.Meg: Oh.Todd: Only two.Meg: Okay.Todd: But shoes?Meg: Shoes.Todd: I only have four pairs of shoes.Meg: What is the purpose of each pair of shoes?Todd: I have one pair of shoes for work. Nice dress shoes. I have two sneakers, one pair of sneakers for running, jogging, one pair of sneakers for fashion, and one pair of Futsal shoes for soccer. That's it. That's it.Meg: Wow. Well, I have to say, you really sound like a minimalist.Todd: Yeah, and you really sound like a pack rat.

Episode 153:  Directing Mary Poppins Artistic Director of the Kalamazoo Civic Theatre Todd Espeland directed the musical Mary Poppins last fall.  How did put his own stamp on the musical? How did he handle the flying? Todd talks about having a unique vision with the piece without ignoring the show's iconic nature. Listen in to this one on one look at directing a specific piece. Show Notes Kalamazoo Civic Theatre Edward Gorey - The Gashlycrumb Tinies Images are courtesy of the Kalamazoo Civic Theatre. All photos by Fred Western. Click on the large image to scroll through the gallery.   Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP – The Theatrefolk Podcast – the place to be for Drama teachers, Drama students, and theatre educators everywhere. I'm Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello! I hope you're well. Thanks for listening! This is Episode 153. You can find any links to this episode in the show notes which are at theatrefolk.com/episode153. All righty. Today's conversation is an absolute delight. I get to talk to one of my favorite theatre artists who is not only a great teacher, a director, a mask maker, a physical performer – the list goes on and on and on. Todd Espeland is the artistic director of the Kalamazoo Civic Theatre and recently directed Mary Poppins so we're going to talk about it. How did he put his own stamp on the musical? How did he handle the flying? Let's find out in this one-on-one look at directing a specific musical. Wee! I can't wait! LINDSAY: Today, I am talking to Todd Espeland. Hello, Todd! TODD: Hello! LINDSAY: Hello, the one, the only! Todd is currently the artistic director of the… TODD: Kalamazoo Civic Theatre. LINDSAY: Awesome. I didn't quite remember that name. Very good catch! I was like, “I think there's a ‘civic' in there somewhere.” Yes. TODD: Kalamazoo Civic Theatre. It's 87 years old. It's the third-biggest community theatre in the country. We do 13 shows a year. LINDSAY: Which is amazing. The reason that I am talking to Todd today is that he just completed a very successful run. How many times was the show held over? Twice? TODD: We held it over twice for a total of 20 performances. LINDSAY: And they just finished a very successful run on Mary Poppins. Now, I know that some of our listeners, at your schools you are doing Mary Poppins. Mary Poppins is insanely popular in the high school circuit right now. TODD: It's insanely popular everywhere right now. LINDSAY: And there's lots of reasons for that, right? TODD: Oh, yeah. I think it's a really good show. You know, I had some doubts going into it, directing it. Looking over the script, I thought, “Wow! It's really well done. I think it's really smartly plotted,” and what's nice is it's not an exact copy of the film. Cameron Mackintosh and Julian Fellows who was the writer for Down Abbey, the creator of Down Abbey, they wanted to take stuff from the movie and the books and kind of concoct a whole new experience that was familiar but different – different enough to keep you engaged. LINDSAY: I think that's a really good point and the reason that we're talking today is that what sometimes happens in some community theatres and some high schools is that they see a show, they want to bring it in, they want to do it, and what ends up happening is they copy and they copy the production that has the most acclaim – like, with the Broadway production – and that is not great, right? TODD: It's problematic because, well, it's problematic because you're trying to copy somebody else's vision and, more importantly, somebody else's technical abilities to get something done and, with just a little bit of forethought, I think you can concoct something that's new and different and very specific to you as a department or a production company. LINDSAY: Fantastic! So, let's start where you started.