Podcasts about randall r

Comedian Shaun Murphy from NYC joins the podcast! It's the second time ever we've had a guest on the podcast. He is absolutely hilarious, has slept on Tina & Rafe's couch multiple times and we love him so much. His new comedy special, "NEAL" is available for free on YouTube! Watch it, share it, follow him on instagram! ------ @iamshaunmurphy SHAUN MURPHY COMEDY SPECIAL LINK BELOW::::: https://youtu.be/DyGoD8QYXe4 Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RAAAANCH

On this week's episode Randall speaks with Monica Garrison, Founder, Executive Director, and Chief Storyteller of Black Girls Do Bike. BGDB's mission is to introduce women and girls to the joys of cycling, with an emphasis on those of color who are often less-represented in the cycling community. With 30K+ members spread over 100+ chapters, BGDB is rolling proof of the bicycle's potential as a vehicle for connection and an example we hope to learn from and collaborate with as we evolve our own efforts toward building community. Black Girls Do Bike Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Monica Garrison - Final [00:00:00] Randall R. Jacobs: Welcome to the Gravel Ride podcast. I'm today's host Randall Jacobs. And with me is Monica Garrison monica is the founder executive director and chief storyteller of black girls do bike and organization she founded in 2013 and has grown to a hundred plus chapters worldwide black girls do bike.org is where you can find more about her organism. She's also a skilled professional photographer and videographer whose work you can find on her personal website, Monica godfrey.com, Godfrey being her maiden name. And with that, I'd like to bring my friend Monica Garrison to join us here. So Monica, welcome to the podcast. [00:00:35] Monica Garrison: Hello. Hello. Happy to be here. Thanks for having. [00:00:39] Randall R. Jacobs: Absolutely. It's been a while in the making. So let's dive right in. What were your motivations for starting black girls do bike. [00:00:46] Monica Garrison: Black grocery bike came from a place of longing for community. I was, um, discovering my joy of, or my love of cycling in the summer spring of 2013. And after a few months of writing and, you know, discovering my city in a new way and spending time with my kids, um, at the end of all that I realized that I didn't see many women who look like me on, on bikes in my town. And so. You know, these women are either out there and I, I can't find them or that they don't exist and they need to know about how great cycling is because I have found cycling to be very, um, healing in a lot of ways, you know, mentally healing, obviously physically healing. Um, and so when I went to the internet to find these women, I, I didn't really find, um, good representation of women, of color on bikes. And so. That was, that was the birth. The Genesis of black girls do bike. It was, it was like, well, let's create this space and invite women into it and see what happens. And, um, and the rest is history. [00:01:52] Randall R. Jacobs: And your base. [00:01:54] Monica Garrison: I'm in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. [00:01:56] Randall R. Jacobs: And it sounds like this was a very personal for you, but so before we dive into the organization, I want to talk, I want to hear more about your personal journey with the bike. [00:02:04] Monica Garrison: I mean, I, I think like most people I wrote as a child, I spent my summers on my bike with my brother around my Pittsburgh neighborhood Lincoln. Lymington where I grew up. And and so it was a big part of my childhood. And then I think like most, most women may. We just stopped riding and at some point, and and then when you get to a point where. The burdens of life kind of catch up with you and you're looking for ways to ease those, those burdens. You look hopefully to exercise or to some other outlet. And, um, for me having all those good memories of riding my bike and feeling stress-free, um, I turned to, I turned to cycling. But it was, it was cool because I started to connect with like Pittsburgh, which was our local bike that, that organization here. And I discovered, you know, this great community of, of bike advocates and people of all sizes and genders and, um, who just wanted to ride their bike carefree and, and do it safely. And so that opened up a lot of possibilities, um, as to what riding even meant for me here. And. [00:03:09] Randall R. Jacobs: What was your, what was your first bike? And how'd you come about it. [00:03:12] Monica Garrison: Um, the very first bike like [00:03:15] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, well going, going back to your, your most recent journey back onto two wheels. [00:03:20] Monica Garrison: Yeah. So I, I did, um, I think what everyone in my generation does, I just. Like crazy online to figure out what kind of bike I need it. And I decided that there was, it was Bita was the name of it, maybe by specialized and it just seemed perfect. And then in the styling was right up my alley. So I'm just like a hybrid commuter type bike. Um, but it was the perfect tool to get me back on my bike because it was so versatile. I could ride on any type of terrain and it was very comforting. Um, despite the small seat, I was apprehensive that it would actually be comfortable, but it, it really was. And, um, yeah, so that bite got me through that first year. And because I was so obsessed with cycling by the end of that first year, um, I added another bike to my stable by the second, you know, the following summer, more of a road bike, um, drop bars to, you know, help me with the speed and even more, it was even more comfortable. So there you go. [00:04:20] Randall R. Jacobs: So that Vita if it was a 2013 or 2014, um, I would have had a hand in it cause I was at specialized and that was one of the bikes under, um, I wasn't the product manager, but I would have been doing the bill of materials and um, the supply chain stuff for that bike. Yeah. So, so I know that bike reasonably well. Yeah. [00:04:38] Monica Garrison: Yeah. Yeah. No, it was great. It was a great bike and I, when I finally sold it, I sold it to someone like it was, it was a good cause I knew they needed that bike at that time. But I really didn't want to let it go because it is really, it was really a great bike. [00:04:53] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, it's, [00:04:54] Monica Garrison: still recommend to people today. They're like, what should I start on? I'm like, well, I started on the visa and I loved it. Um, and then, you know, there are other bikes that are comparable across all the brands, but, um, yeah, that bike, that bike stole my heart. [00:05:08] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and that sort of machine, you know, they, you, you can, you know, they go up into the, a couple of thousands, but you can get an entry-level one at around 500 bucks or so. And it's a fine machine for getting off the ground. And that's, I think that that accessibility is a real critical, um, area of our sport that, that. No, it needs to be addressed. We have a lot of people in our community that are riding, you know, fancy superbikes, but you have to get a start somewhere. [00:05:32] Monica Garrison: Yeah, for sure. and I had done, like I had done the cheaper bikes and I knew all the things, you know, in terms of comfort and durability that. And so I said, I'm going to invest in myself. Right. I'm going to do this. If I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it. Right. So I, um, so I was like, yeah, $500 is worth the investment. If it gives me a machine. that does what I needed to do and it ended up being a great investment for sure. [00:05:59] Randall R. Jacobs: And what were some of the earliest rides you went on? What was that experience like? [00:06:03] Monica Garrison: Um, there's a great trail in Pittsburgh called the Eliza furnace trail. And, um, [00:06:09] Randall R. Jacobs: I've been on that [00:06:10] Monica Garrison: it runs along. Yeah. Yeah. It's um, it runs along our Parkway and then it's, you know, circled, it goes in lots of directions. It's, it's actually pretty cool. It runs past our county jail. Um, it and it runs to the south side of town, which has great great culture over there. So yeah, the olanzapine trail. is pretty cool. It's actually still my favorite trail. Um, and then. When I, when I would ride with the kids, we were always looking for like, you know, kid friendly. So I spent a lot of times, a lot of time on the trails because I wanted my kids to come along with me. And, um, obviously I didn't want to take them onto the roads. So I got really familiar with that. And then I grew up in east Liberty, that part of town. Um, and there are a lot of things to bike Pittsburgh. There are a lot of bike lanes there now, which are. Pretty conducive to getting around town without having to interact too much with traffic. So, um, so that's probably my favorite part of the town to ride in. [00:07:07] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, I've been visiting Pittsburgh for like 15 years or so. And the amount of investments in the downtown and broader infrastructure and so on with bike being part of that has been it's been quite transformative in that area. So very cool to hear that you've been taking advantage. [00:07:21] Monica Garrison: pretty sure. [00:07:23] Randall R. Jacobs: And how old were your kids at the time? And th this is we're talking like early 2010. [00:07:27] Monica Garrison: Yeah, right. So my youngest, I taught him the ride at four. So he was probably four, my daughter's three years older. So she was seven. So four year old and a seven year old. And we're like killing it around Pittsburgh, on our bikes. Yeah. [00:07:41] Randall R. Jacobs: That's great. Yeah. Um, I have a niece and a couple of nephews that I live with in a few nephews next door. So kind of same thing for 6, 7, 8. And it's just really wonderful to have that experience. It kind of slows you down a little bit, I would imagine. [00:07:58] Monica Garrison: Yeah. Yeah. It's a different type of ride. But it's but it's invaluable in so many other ways, so it's cool. [00:08:06] Randall R. Jacobs: So tell me about some of your first big group rides with other adults. [00:08:09] Monica Garrison: Um, I think my first, I don't do a lot of group rides even to this day, to be honest with you. Um, cycling is in a lot of ways, a solo sport for me which is kind of ironic because I created this organization encouraging people to ride together and to appreciate the power of that. But yeah, in all honesty, I don't, I don't do a lot of group breads. I will say my, my favorite thing to do here in Pittsburgh, that feels like a groove ride, but it, so, so isn't um, is our open streets, um, series that we have throughout the summer. So they, they shut down miles and miles of streets here. And, you know, you can just be on the, on the open roads with other cyclists and rollerbladers and, um, All kinds of other people on transportation and the it shops are open, you know, everything's open. And, um, that, that sense of community is, is great. And it gets people on bikes who wouldn't normally be, and it gets them in, in an environment that they wouldn't normally be. So then they start to see. What's possible. And that's why I like that event so much, because once you experience it, you're like, oh, why can't we have this more often? You know, what's holding us back. And so I think it gets people's wheels turning into the possibilities of what, you know, open streets could really be. [00:09:32] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, I think the us is generally behind say a lot of European countries with regards to like cycling as a modality for transportation and recreation and so on, but you kind of hit a tipping point around, um, like 5%. Utilization of bikes versus other modes where the infrastructure comes into play and drivers are getting used to cyclists on the road, and you have a critical mass of people who are pushing for more open streets, more bike pads and things like that. Um, my guess is that Pittsburgh has hit that tipping point. Is there significant more like additional investment happening or [00:10:08] Monica Garrison: yeah. for sure. For sure. We we've had, um, for the last two last two terms, we've had the political power behind change, which has been helpful. Um, and so when folks are at the top are agreeable, you seem to get a lot more done. [00:10:27] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, for sure. Well, so then let's dive into, um, you know, how, how far, how many years into your ride? Did you decide? Okay. Um, I don't see enough people who look like me and I want to motivate them. I'm going to start an organization. How did that come about? [00:10:43] Monica Garrison: Yeah, it really wasn't immediate. Like, um, I realized that we were missing from the tapestry of my city pretty quickly. And, um, within, within months of me taking that first ride, I, I set up the Facebook page for black girls, Dubai. And, um, and then within a couple of months I said, this might be a thing, so I should probably get the domain. So the website came soon after and, um, I think I have to go back and look because the first chapter did not start in Pittsburgh. It actually started in Florida, a lady contacted me and said, I want to create this in my town. Would you be on board? And we worked through the process of creating the first chapter, but, um, Yeah, it was, it was almost the thought came to me immediately. And then it just took some time to figure out if it existed. Cause I don't want to duplicate someone else's work. Um, and there was, there was a group in the sea of black women on bikes, um, and they had had done a great job. It seemed to like galvanizing women of color in DC around cycling. And I thought, you know, that could, that could be, that could be worldwide, not just in DC. And So um, I started down the path of seeking women all over the country who shared this love of cycling. [00:12:06] Randall R. Jacobs: So started in Florida. And then what were the, what were the next chapters and how did that, was it, was it also organic people reaching out to you or was it more proactive or a mix of the two. [00:12:18] Monica Garrison: Um, it it's always been people reaching out to me. I think we created a page that was dedicated to showcasing what chapters we had and also giving folks steps they needed to follow to, to reach out if they felt they met the criteria to lead a group of black girls or like, um, women. So uh, so it was always we're, we're looking for. And I didn't really solicit at all. Other beyond that. And the first few chapters were major cities, as you can imagine, like Los Angeles has been, um, almost one of our founding chapters, Atlanta. We were in Texas pretty quickly. So our Houston chapter, I think was the first one in Texas, but we've since expanded to almost all the big cities. Um, yeah, just, it was like a domino effect. Once people realize that they could duplicate what we had done in their towns, they were very excited. And so we were just like, here, here are the tools you need, and we'll give you the platform to let people know that you exist and let's see what happens. [00:13:24] Randall R. Jacobs: So then from there, you've got this, you know, rapidly kind of self accumulating snowball of interest and people reaching out, wanting to start their own chapters. How did it evolve from there? And, um, what sorts of opportunities emerged as, as that started to grow and become a more visible. [00:13:41] Monica Garrison: Yeah, I think I remember so the first time I showed up at the national bike summit in DC. Which was, I believe the second year into this process. So folks had started to hear about us. Um, and I was like VIP at the bike summit. Like everyone knew who I was, folks were coming up to me and they were like, let's connect. We need to, you know, we need to help you grow this. And so out of that excitement, Because that's a meeting of the, you know, the greatest advocate minds of the, of the bike, um, community. And so out of that, you know, we're just kind of spread. And then I think within another year or two, um, I was part of the keynote panel speaking at the bike summit. Um, so that was, that was just crazy. And, and then beyond that, obviously, because of the numbers of women who are, who we consider members. Um, we started to get noticed, you know, through our Instagram page. So some of the bike brands started to reach out to us, which was never, never even something I anticipated would happen. But, um, but I think it was just hard to ignore us because we were growing so fast and, and hopefully the content was was so compelling that they just couldn't couldn't ignore us. And, um, And so it just kind of, like you said, it was, it was, it was a snowball at that point and it kept gaining momentum even to this day. Like, you know, I did a project with Ford, um, just a few months ago and that's like, that's probably the biggest of the big and. It was a whirlwind. I don't even know how it happened. They were just like, be here at this time and do this thing and we'll make, we'll make some magic and they did. So, so when you talk about opportunities, like, you know, I couldn't have imagined that I would be in a spot talking to the, you know, the folks at Ford. that. was pretty cool. [00:15:36] Randall R. Jacobs: When I thought that, that, that, um, that ad was pretty interesting too. Not just because it showcased you and black girls do bike, but then also it's like, um, black women in outdoors generally. And I think it was the, the, the, um, their new pickup truck. Am I right? [00:15:51] Monica Garrison: Yeah. The Bronco. [00:15:53] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. Okay. So, um, yeah, I thought that that was really well done. And I, when I saw you posted up on your pages so then we, so here we're at, um, so now you're at a hundred or so chapters, including some international, where are you? International chapters? [00:16:09] Monica Garrison: The biggest one is London. We have a UK London, UK chapter as of the end of 2021. They came on the scene. Um, And then we have we have a chapter in the Caribbean, but they've actually been with us for probably five years. Um, and then I like to brag, I realized Alaska is part of the U S but we have an Anchorage Alaska chapter, which still blows my mind. So, but that shows, you know, the depth and breadth of the organization, you know, London and Tega and anchors, Alaska. [00:16:37] Randall R. Jacobs: And so then, so you have all these chapters, mostly around the U S but, but you've started getting interest from people wanting to start another international cities. I'm curious, like, what are some of the archetypes of people? What types of things. Come into your organization in terms of their relationship to the bike and backgrounds and things like this. And how did, how did they find you? [00:16:57] Monica Garrison: Yeah, so it varies. I I'd say we have everyone from like, you know, the 20 something in college who, you know, is riding her bike to get around campus. And she discovers us to the. 50 plus a woman who, you know, has a career, kids are out of the house and she's got lots of free time. And, um, and she's either discovering cycling, or she's been a casual rider and she wants to take it more seriously to, you? know, um, deal with her health, mental health, physical health, all those things, um, and everything. And everyone in between, to be honest with you, um, I mean, we even have riders who don't know how to ride and some of our sheroes are literally holding their hands. And teaching them how to ride so that they can then join the group to ride. So it really, it really is a spectrum. [00:17:50] Randall R. Jacobs: And this, this term Shiro that you just use, um, this is the toy, a term that you coined. I hadn't heard it before. [00:17:55] Monica Garrison: Yeah. I, I think I coined it, but I hear it a lot now. So then part of me is like, maybe it was always there And, I just, you know, pick that up somewhere. But, um, but it was to play a play on the word hero and and, and I didn't really like the way heroin sounded. So I was like, let's make it cheer. Let's make it chiro. Um, yeah. And it stuck. So [00:18:18] Randall R. Jacobs: and is this a formal, is this a formal role within the broader community? [00:18:23] Monica Garrison: yeah. So, so all the women across the, the org that volunteer to lead, those are our sheroes. Um, and some, some groups only have one leader and then there can be Koshi Euro. So sometimes there's a group of four or more, um, who handle all the responsibilities. And then we have ride leaders, which is probably the only other title in the organization. Those are people who, you know, don't want to necessarily have the responsibility that she wrote, but they want to support in that, you know, that's the best way that they can support. [00:18:51] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and this flow is very natural. My next question, which is talk to me about the structure of the organization and both in terms of how it's run, um, and like the organizational structure, but then also in terms of its. [00:19:04] Monica Garrison: Yeah. So I am in a lot of ways, a one woman show. I mean these eight years I've. I've handled the logistics of running the shop. Cause we have a really vibrant shop full of gear. All of our social media posts, those, um, messages myself. And then as you can imagine, all the backend things that come with promoting the organization. You know, learning new skills so that we can enter into other interesting ways of talking about cycling and women in cycling. Um, so yeah, so I'm, I guess I'm the only employee of black girls do bike. Um, our, she rose our volunteer. And, um, you know, there are certain perks that they take advantage of because they hold that she wrote a role. So anytime I commit to something with a company or an organization, I'm looking for ways to, you know, send some perks there way for the, for the hard work that they do. Um, we are as a, we're a nonprofit organization. And, um, so. Us to seek donations from private and public entities. And that that's fairly new for us. We've, we've actually not operated as a nonprofit until just the last 12 months or so. So we're, we're growing into that role, what that means. And, um, we're fiscally sponsored by a company called players philanthropy fund. That's a mouthful. Um, but they're great. So they handle all of our, um, all of our backend legal. And accounting thing. So that's, that's, that's the makeup of York. [00:20:40] Randall R. Jacobs: Got it. And, um, in terms of like funding, so what sorts of organizations tend to like, how does, how are you currently funded? Is it a mix of organization and. Dues, primarily membership. How does, how does that work out? [00:20:53] Monica Garrison: So ironically, our we've always. So I'm proud of the fact that we don't take membership dues. We just want you to show up and ride. So we are funded primarily through our shop, which I mentioned. Um, I put a lot of, even from the beginning, I've put a lot of energy into. Um, making our, our gear and our swag unique and stand out? and be appealing because I want these women to, you know, even if they feel like they don't fit into the cycling community, I want them to show up and look great so that they feel great. Right. So if they show up to a ride, I want them to feel like they fit. Um, and sometimes cycling kid is, is the way to fit in. Right? So we, so we do those, we do t-shirts and all those other things. Um, we have some great partners. We partner right now with track and USA cycling and REI has been a strong, strong partner for. [00:21:49] Randall R. Jacobs: Hmm. [00:21:50] Monica Garrison: Probably more than five years now. They've been, they've been with us almost since the beginning and supporting them in multiple ways. So they're probably our longest partner. So those partnerships, you know, usually come with some sort, some sort of monetary support. And then, as I said, we're transitioned to a nonprofit. So just in the last year and a half, I spent a lot of energy, um, attempting to secure grants and that's that's all new to me, but, but we've had a really good year and I'd say our success rate is pretty high. So, um, yeah. So, so the shop sponsorships And grants are three, um, funnels of income. [00:22:29] Randall R. Jacobs: And then for our listeners, if there's anyone who's interested in supporting what you do, what's the best way to get a hold. [00:22:35] Monica Garrison: Oh sure. Um, just probably our website, black girls do bike.org. Um, and there's a, there's a donate button there, but there's also, if you go to our if you go through the page, you'll see lots of examples of, you know, what, what we, what we've accomplished really in the last eight years. And, um, and what we expect to accomplish going forward. [00:22:57] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. And I can say just as an outside observer, who's only had the opportunity to get to know you over the past couple of months as we've been chatting. Um, it's, it's very. What have you been able to pull off? And as you know, we've talked about the ridership, which is an online community that we're building and, you know, looking at it from afar, what you do and the degree of in-person community that you've been able to facilitate. Um, it's yeah, it's very admirable, very admirable. Um, so now I'm curious. [00:23:27] Monica Garrison: a lot of, a lot of other people. [00:23:29] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and, and it's only recently that you have taken a salary, is that right? Like you were, you were funding this out of your own pocket or out of your own time until fairly recently. [00:23:40] Monica Garrison: I mean, what I've, what I've always said is we were, we were a for-profit company with philanthropic intentions. So the goal was always just to, just to invest, reinvest, to grow growth was, was always the purpose. Um, and so if there was some leftover, certainly I would pay myself, but only until recently. Yeah. So that we're structured as a non-profit and I'm the executive director now. So I'm able to, you know, formally, um, be paid for the time that I put in. [00:24:08] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. And there's a lot that you do that. I mean, you're a professional photographer and videographer, so you're doing pretty much all of your content, right? In addition to seeking grants and collaborations and coordinating with a hundred different chapters around the world and trying to grow, that's a, that's a full-time job for anybody. [00:24:27] Monica Garrison: for sure. [00:24:28] Randall R. Jacobs: Um, so then let's talk about, I'm curious to hear more about the various collaborations that your organizations and. Um, whether it be with companies or with other writing communities. So tell me more about that. [00:24:41] Monica Garrison: Yeah, I think, um, each collaboration is slightly different. Um, I know REI there focuses on the outdoors and, um, so they're always looking for a ways and it's not just us, they've partnered with, I think there are nine other organizations right now that. they're re re really focusing in on, um, who all encourage you know, marginalized communities to get outdoors and, and to feel safe in the. Um, and that's something that's, you know, kind of near and dear to me because I also beyond cycling, I love to hike and, um, I love the outdoors and camping and those things. Um, but so their partnership has always been what, what do you need to be successful? And it's funny because their, their support has more because when it started, it was, you know, will these funds help you? Yes. And then it became, what do you need to do? And what can we give you to help you accomplish it? So it was more focused on us as founders and, um, and what we actually want it long-term so that, so they've committed to three three-year commitments of support. Um, and they've helped them in a plethora of other ways, um, that I, I can't even really measure, um, USA cycling. That was unique because they want it too. They're focused on racing and in diversifying racing. So they said, well, you have this audience, but how can we help, help you pull out women who. You know, in your ranks who are competitive, who want to race, but are hindered in some way. So they're not racing for various reasons. What are, what are those obstacles and how can we help you help them? Um, so that was unique. And we, we got a grant this year from Rafa, which along the lines of the racing, um, that that's been. Incredible because I always had in the back of my mind, this thought of when we got to the point where we were big enough and we were touching enough women's lives, um, could we help some, some athletes become, you know, competitive racers who either were struggling in the space or who even hadn't considered it because they knew they didn't have all the resources they needed. So with the combination of USA cycling and the, the funding that we got from. we've committed to creating at the very least, um, some, some athlete ambassadors who will represent black girls do bike and, and go, you know, go out and race in the name of black girls do bike, which on some scale, hopefully will help diversify cycling the racing, the racing team. Um, Partners. What other, even you asked about partners with our, who? Our other partners. Oh, we've been partnered just a little thing. Well, not really little thing. Little, little Bellas is a mountain biking group. When they focus strictly on getting girls on mountain bikes and, comfortable in that space, I've been a big fan of theirs for a long time. And they reached out and, said, you know, I know you have young girls in your ranks or maybe the daughters and granddaughters of the women who are riding with you camp. Are there some synergies. Where, you know, we can help you with those girls and we can, you know, get our girls, mothers and grandmothers riding with you. And, and when girls age out of little Bellas, can they transition in the black girls bike? Because we welcome all women riders, not just, you know, women of color. So that was kind of beautiful. And, um, we're still working on it, but. And a lot of ways our organizations are similar, but they're also different in a lot of ways. Um, so that that's been a challenge, but but our hearts are in the right place. And I think we are moving in a direction where we can, you know, merge or at least have these two communities communicating and sharing skills and, you know, getting better because of the connection. So just a few examples. [00:28:29] Randall R. Jacobs: well, and to be fully transparent with our audience, I've already shared this with you. But part of my motivation in bringing you on was to also start kind of exploring, like, what are the ways in which our respective communities can, you know, integrate and be supportive of each other and connect. Um, and so thinking about well, first. I'm actually very interested to hear more about kind of your premier athletes within your ranks. Cause there are some things that we might be able to do there, but then also I'd like to understand, I'd like to explore a little bit more, like how, how do your members, how many members do you have and how do they engage with you and with each other currently? [00:29:10] Monica Garrison: Yeah. So, the best kind I have is just adding up all of the women who are in our individual groups. So we have, like I said, a hundred, I think we're up to 102 chapters now. Um, so at last count we had 30,000 women in those groups. So because we don't charge membership dues, that's what I use as our membership number, because any of those women could, you know, show up or ride with us on any given day. Um, so yeah, so that's the breadth of our membership. And I'd say, I'd say, I mean, on average, if you ask our, she rose, they probably have between. 10 to 40 women show up for a given ride, right. Depending on the skill required for the ride. So, um, just to give you an idea of how many people we have actively riding on a weekly basis or a monthly basis. [00:29:59] Randall R. Jacobs: And you're communicating with your membership primarily over email or what are the different means that you use to coordinate your. [00:30:06] Monica Garrison: Yeah. So I wish I used email more. I, um, I gave up the, the, the thought of a newsletter a long time ago, but, um, I, [00:30:16] Randall R. Jacobs: It's a lot of work. [00:30:18] Monica Garrison: is a lot of work. It is, I, I did it for about a year and then I was like, there's gotta be a better way. Um, so our primary channel of communication is facing. And that's, it's been faithful from the beginning. Um, I think probably this was true eight years ago, more than it is today, but Facebook was the premier number one way to like create a community, keep them informed, you know, organize and, um, disseminate information. Like there was nothing better than Facebook. I do feel that's probably changing or will change in the next five to 10 years, but, [00:30:53] Randall R. Jacobs: we, if we have anything to do with it. Yep. [00:30:54] Monica Garrison: Um, so, so yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a web of of chapters all connected through Facebook. They each have their own pages. I am on all of those pages, so I can kind of monitor like the pulse of what's going on and what things are important and what topics are coming up. Um, And then some of our chapters, probably the more tech savvy ones have created Instagram pages. So they've ventured out a little bit and they're using. To do some of the same things they do on Facebook, but also just to have a presence on Instagram so that they can be found. So those are the main channels. [00:31:30] Randall R. Jacobs: And there's a, I'm curious, do you have some sort of, um, basic like guide to, um, how to manage the local chapters? Are there meetings that you're having with, um, all the different chapter leaders how does that get coordinate? [00:31:45] Monica Garrison: Yeah. So I have a couple of things we have. Um, I created a I guess the best way to describe it as a slideshow that I, all of our sheroes, when like, an onboarding slideshow that they all have to watch. Um, it tells all the raw happy things about black girls do bike and you know, what links are important and what perks they now qualify for and all those things. And then in order to keep everyone on the same page, I have a Facebook page dedicated, just Frishy. So we're all, all 180 plus of us are on one page. And that way I can drop a message and they all get it at the same time. And, and I use that also for feedback, like, you know, I'm thinking of dropping this new cycling kit. What do you think of the colors or whatever? I, um, I use that forum for a lot of things are, you know, we're considering. In the future, you know, what kind of perks would you want as part of a membership? Like all those questions I bounce off of them, um, in that in that arena and beyond that, um, that's, I guess that's, I guess that's the best way we organize. Um, we do have starting this year, actually. I probably should have started a long time ago, but since I was so bombarded with zoom meetings during the pandemic. I was trying not to have a black girl, Dubai zoom, by popular demand this year we, we started having probably quarterly though end up being quarterly meetings with this year. It was just to keep them, you know, abreast of what's going on. And, um, and also to get some feedback, you know, what things are, are top of mind for them. And so that that's, we've had one so far. And we, I expect have to continue that as long into the future. [00:33:29] Randall R. Jacobs: So I'm curious to dive in more. You know, obviously a topic near and dear to my heart, as we're considering how to evolve the ridership. Um, both from a dynamic standpoint and the community standpoint, but then also from a technical standpoint. Um, so you've described Facebook as kind of core to how you, um, you know, manage your organization. What are the challenges that you see with Facebook? And one of the things that you would either that you're planning on doing or would like to do, but that your current stack doesn't, you know, tech stack doesn't allow you to do. [00:34:01] Monica Garrison: Yeah. Um, I think the biggest challenge with Facebook is that everyone's not on Facebook. I mean, there are a large, large part of the population probably. Under 30, um, who have just opted out of Facebook altogether, or they only keep it so they can keep in touch with their parents and cousins. And, um, but they don't use it as their main source of entertainment information. So I, I think going forward, we're going to be missing out on those ladies because we don't really have a solution. To reaching them, um, at this point. And I, and I refuse to get on Tik TOK and dance to get, to get those lanes. So I don't have a solution yet. Another challenge is like so we have some chapters that have 2,500 women in them. Right. And then our Atlanta chapters, 2,600 ladies right now. And there are limitations on that Facebook has Facebook has implemented that you can only invite so many people to events that you post or that you create with them. Facebook. Um, I think one of those years told me 400 was the limit. Well, You know, if you have 2,600 people, you're barely, barely scratching the surface. If you can only invite 400 to your next big event. So there are some limitations and I see why they might do that. But for a group, our sides, that's, you know, that's not good for us. [00:35:24] Randall R. Jacobs: well, and you get into 400 peeper people. You need liability waivers, you need the ability to, um, You know, have other managerial structures, you need the ability to take, um, you know, payments, if there's going to be a fee for the events to, to actually fund the event. Cause 400 people were talking like, you know, porta-potties and police details and things like this in order to pull off that sort of thing. This is not a, um, a, an ad hoc group ride anymore at that time. [00:35:51] Monica Garrison: you're right. Yeah. So there's so much more involved. And I think what what's going to happen is is that Facebook. It's becoming less relevant already. We kind of can see the handwriting on the wall and, um, our potential audience is going to be left behind if we don't somehow evolve and find a way to, um, bring them in and in the tool, Facebook is a tool like even, um, advertising. So if I have a cell in the black rooms of like shop and I, and I want to reach, you know, my audience. I will tell you the price of advertising has skyrocket on Facebook. Like I used to be able to spend 50 bucks and I could hit everybody in a week, um, when we had 15,000 people. But now that you know, it's, Penny's, um, The same money I spent five years ago. It was pennies. Now the inflation rate is, is crazy. So I I've been, I've been making do, but, um, I don't, you know, there's no long-term strategy to, I don't think they're gonna bring their prices down. So I need another way. [00:36:55] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the things that we noticed when we got to a certain scale on Instagram and it wasn't a huge scale. You know, we had a few instances where we had. You know, a thousand likes for a post or something. And then all of a sudden I'm getting messages from Instagram's advertising sales team. And you know, we just said, no, we're not interested at this time. And all of a sudden our posts are getting, you know, dozens of likes. And that's when I looked at as like first off, I never liked Instagram much anyways. Um, I think that there's some good that happens there, but there's a, it can be a little bit, um, look at me, look at me. Um, and the dynamics there, aren't always healthy, but then also like, The, you know, people like yourself, people like us are bringing people to this platform. The platform is, um, getting access to their data. And then now they, and that they're monetizing that data in various. The platform is, and then now they want to be paid to access the audience that we brought to them. Um, and you know, it, the tools don't necessarily serve the needs of, of communities like ours. So we've been thinking a lot about, um, how to. Have online tools that facilitate, you know, offline community and connection and exchange and, and experiences, right. Event planning and things like this, that don't at the same time, have this kind of exploitative or extracted. Components, which seems to be very much the direction that the major platforms have taken. And that's where you see, like you've been in the ridership a little bit. I'm curious what you've you know, what you've observed. And then also, I just want to encourage our audience. If you have any questions for Monica, um, you can tag her in there and you know, she can she can, you can engage with her there, or if you have ideas or ways that you want to support what she does. But I'm kind of curious, like what, what, what you'd like to see different, um, with a next generation of tools and maybe what you've observed with us and what we get right or wrong. [00:38:50] Monica Garrison: Um, I think you guys are onto something. Um, at least when I talked to you, you realize our pain points, um, you know, you recognize our pain points maybe because we're. You know, grow this community the same way in, in similar ways. But I think, I think the biggest failing of our current system is, um, while we do grow by word of mouth I think there has to be a better way to, to organize a community online in the, the, the tools we're using now are, are good enough, but they're, they're not going to be good enough because things are changing every day and, um, Organizing the community is important and that there are many layers to that. There's finding new members, there's keeping current members satisfied. There's, you know, um, you know, bringing people together around ideas of the future of the organization. Like there, there, there are a lot of levels to it. Um, so I would say that, that I think you're on the right track. Um, and I think you realize where the failings are in the current system and. Hopefully that, you know, there are solutions on the other side. [00:40:03] Randall R. Jacobs: I can say, um, and we'll be talking about this more publicly in the upcoming months as these tools come online, but we do have a technology partner, um, for the ridership. Who's also happens to be one of the investors in, in thesis. Um, and you know, I've been, I've been in those meetings and the hope is that we'll have at least the, um, like an, like an alpha pilot sort of product that we can migrate the ridership to in the, in the upcoming months or by the summer. And this will include not just the slack line functionality that we have currently, but also the ability to organize events, including waivers and, um, you know, entrance fees and even conversations around the. You know, marketplace component, things like this. So just a matter of like how quickly the development can happen, but, um, I think there's a, another conversation for you and I to have both, um, offline in the upcoming weeks. And then maybe back here on the podcast in a few months, if we find opportunities for us to collaborate. [00:41:00] Monica Garrison: Yeah, for sure. I'm um, I'm excited about the possibilities. I know. I mean, even just being in the slack community that you have created has been beneficial, I've made some connections. I've, I've gotten some ideas, um, that have sparked, you know, other ideas. So, um, I found that valuable for sure. [00:41:18] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and I just want to extend a very warm welcome, um, to the rest of your community that would find our community valuable, um, to come and join us. Um, it's the ridership.com. And if you'd like to reach out to me personally, you can, you can find a way to contact us through that website. And if you have ideas as to how we can do things differently, um, we definitely want to. Yeah, we've appealed early on to an audience that is much more in the kind of more hardcore enthusiast realm. I mean, it's the types of people who listen to a podcast dedicated to gravel riding. Right. So, you know, already there's, there's kind of a self-selected element to that. Yeah. Um, but, but really the, the broader motivation here is to create a place where, um, you know, really a fellowship of writers helping. And so the extent to which, um, you know, there's, there's opportunities for connection there, that's certainly something to explore. So anything else that you'd like to to talk about while we're while we're here together today? [00:42:18] Monica Garrison: Um, no, I think we hit all the major, major topics. [00:42:24] Randall R. Jacobs: All right. Well then Monica, Garrison, thank you very much for joining me. And, I really look forward to keeping the conversation going. [00:42:32] Monica Garrison: For sure. Yeah, this has been great. All of our conversations have been great, so I'm glad we were able to connect and it seems like we're going to be talking more in the future. So I look forward to it. [00:42:42] Randall: And that's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. If you'd like to engage further on this topic I encourage you to join The Ridership. If you're interested in supporting the podcast, you can visit www.buymeacoffee.com/thegravelride. And finally here's the finding some dirt onto your wheels.    

Ayyyyyy! We're back, baby. Sound off in the comments if you ever had a low white blood cell count due to a quote on quote intimate encounter Watch this week's episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/cp51P6J2aTY Fun news coming for y'all in the next couple weeks, can't spoil it yet though! Be on the lookout on our instagrams and this page to find out more. We love you all, thanks for the support over the years and helping us grow to where we are now. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room. RANCH

Comedian Rafe Williams joins Tina Dybal on the podcast this week while our gal Libbie was in Joshua Tree taking hot sexy pics. Rafe Williams is Tina's partner as y'all know- they talk sports, football and Tina wanting to get into wrestling.  Oddly enough that night, they got invited to the WWE Royal Rumble THAT NIGHT. It was wild, you'll hear about it next episode with Libbie & Tina. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RAAAAAANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

Libbie is back from Vegas! Tina is over COVID! The Slop City gals are BACK after our longest hiatus of a few weeks. Listen, we are busy gals and comedians. Y'all gotta cut us some slack while we navigate working, being on the road and trying to do all the things we want to do. We love all of you and are so grateful for our loyal Slop fans.   XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RANCHHHHHHHHH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

Libbie's back in town for the next few months! We already got a copyright claim on this episode on YouTube - so, enjoy! It's worth it. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA, Hope Y'all had a Merry Christmas & A Happy New Year! Ring it in with some RAAAAAAAAAANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

On this week's episode of Slop City, dear friend of the podecast- Bobby Jaycox fills in for Libbie and joins Tina/Tuna Dybal! Libbie will be back next week, but as always - Bobby Jaycox & Rafe Williams fill in for the queens when they are gone. This week's episode, Tina & Bobby cover a multitude of topics- acceptable things to do at the dinner table, putting keys in your ears- ya know, the normal stuff. Make sure to follow Bobby Jaycox on social media. He also hosts a podcast almost every morning on his instagram stories called, "I Just Woke Up Podcast". His instagram is: @bobbyjaycox Merry Christmas or whatever you do! We love all y'all! XO ALL HAIL PUCINAAAA RAAANCH! Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room

Tina Dybal is joined by comedian, Rafe Williams this week on Slop City! As some of you may know, they are partners. Sexxxxxxxxy. They talk about winter plays and Tina truly has one of the biggest word screw ups of her life, you'll understand. We chat about Rafe's granddaughter, which technically makes Tina a grandmother. BIG STUFF Y'ALL. Follow Rafe Williams on instagram! @iamrafewilliams XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RAAAAANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

This week on Slop City Podcast, we welcome one of our favorite comics and humans- Ali Macofsky! Ali is a comedian based out of Los Angeles. She was a regular on over 100 episodes of The Comedy Store's "Kill Tony Podcast". She headlines clubs all over the US and has her own sloppy podcast, "Resting Bitch with Ali Macofsky". Enjoy! She's one of the best. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RAAAAAANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

This week on Slop City Podcast, we review some aspects of Thanksgiving. Also, the neighborhood watch burglar. Lots of good stuff this week.  Make sure you've got dazzling cutlery and plates at your next holiday event. If you need help on how to, feel free to DM us on instagram and we can help you out. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RAAAAAAAANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.  

The gals are back together. Everybody, give it up for Libbie Higgins and Tina Dybal. This week's episode we ask you to sound off in the comments about a time that "In The Air Tonight" by Phil Collins has affected your life. It can be the first time, the last time you ever met the song. We love y'all!!!!!!! XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RAAAAAANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room. Follow us on instagram! Libbie Higgins: @libbiehiggins_ Tina Dybal:@tinadybal Randy Cash: @rcashcomedy

Libbie and Tina are back this week! They just finished the first leg of tour with Trailer Trash Tammy in Portland & Spokane! Thanks to all the Slop fans and cats that came out to see us. We love y'all! This week the gals talk about boomers, skillets, hollandaise and how to get rid of e-mails. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA PRoduced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

On this week's podecast: Tina meets some Slop Citizens in the wild, Libbie has a big butt, and we examine highway art by Jungle Law. Also Tina is going to be sued for destroying Libbie's car. Thanks for listening and watching. We love and appreciate it. As always, this podcast is produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room/command center.

Hey, hunnies, Libbie here. I found this old episode from August. Tina usually uploads stuff, so I'm not sure if this episode has already been uploaded. YOLO  Sound off in the comments if we already released this episode. All Hail Pucina. ****WE HAVE A NEW PO BOX!!!!!!!!!**** PO BOX 160042 Saint Louis, MO 63116 Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

AAAAAAAAYYY!  This episode we go live on Instagram, Tina flips out on a fan and then retracts her statement as she was wrong. Chuck Berry gets a dishonorable mention. Biggest question this week is: What Goes On In Your Bathroom? Sound off in the comments. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RAAAAAAAAANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

****WE HAVE A NEW PO BOX!!!!!!!!!**** PO BOX 160042 Saint Louis, MO 63116 Love y'all. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

Ayyyyyyyyyy! We're back in action. This week, we talk about the lifeguard that roasted us at the community pool. Also, Harry is a mind-reader. ****WE HAVE A NEW PO BOX!!!!!!!!!**** PO BOX 160042 Saint Louis, MO 63116 Love y'all. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

In this episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast, I recap some sermons and talk about how God's grace gives us the freedom to be present, right now, where we are. I also highlight some articles from around the web that have proven enlightening and encouraging. May you be blessed by this brief episode. Grace and peace. Connect with the show: https://graceupongrace.net/ Buy Fresh Roasted Coffee: http://www.freshroastedcoffee.com **Use code ‘GRACE10' to get 10% off!** Notes: Pastor Brad's sermons Stonington Baptist Church sermons “Grace for the now,” article by yours truly “On not minding what happens,” Oliver Burkeman “I'm Not Who I Want to Be,” article by yours truly “The Pastoral Heart of Bunyan,” Jake Tanner “Smells Like Groupie Spirit,” Randall R. Greenwald Daily Grace: The Mockingbird Devotional, Vol. 2 Grace: So Much More Than You Know & So Much Better Than You Think, Brad J. Gray --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

We get to chat with Harry this episode. Tina asks him some questions we've all had for him, but overall we just have a nice lil' chat. Enjoy!  PS- For those of you that don't have instagram--- Libbie had her first round of surgeries for lipedema! She is doing well and already walking around & zooming faster than she was before. We're gonna try to do some zoom podcasts while she's out of town the next few weeks. Love y'all! XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

This week we dive into a lot of Libbie's "stand-offs" she had this past week.  There's a radio yard sale also, so a pretty diverse week of content. Love y'all!  XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RAAAAAAAAAANCH PS- Again, sorry the Patreon content has been few and far between lately. It's been tough with Tina & Libbie's schedule to coordinate. Libbie's first surgery is 8/12/21 - send her lots of love! Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

We've all been waiting for this moment for a long time. Libbie gets raw and uncut with her recent "encounters". Last week, we got the hype and this week we get the dirty deetz.  Enjoy, slops. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA PS- Patreon supporters, we're sorry we haven't been able to put much content out. We have both been crazy busy and schedules haven't been matching up. We love you Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

This week's episode was shot and filmed in Tina's Chicago hotel room. On a couch, very Weinsteiny. Enjoy! We filmed this during the weekend of shows in Chicago with Chelcie Lynn, Tina joined them for the weekend! XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

Slop Citizens/Customers- We're back! We took a two week summer break, lots going on for all of us. The next few months may look a bit different also as Libbie is getting surgery for lipedema. We're all hoping she's going to feel much better after this and once she gets going on her 5 rounds of surgery. We love y'all. Thanks to everyone that came out to see Libbie & Chelcie on their tour. ALSO- thanks to everyone who came and saw us in Chicago! XO ALL HAIL PUCINA  RANNNNNNNNNNCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

In this episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast, I get to reflect on some prescient thoughts and themes that I've been considering lately through the course of my sermon series on Philippians, especially as it relates to the ways God confounds our sense and challenges our faith through his divine and sovereign “Deep Magic.” Connect with the show: https://graceupongrace.net/ Buy Fresh Roasted Coffee: http://www.freshroastedcoffee.com **Use code ‘GRACE10' to get 10% off!** Notes: Stonington Baptist Church sermons “The deeper magic of opportune obstacles,” article by yours truly “In pretense or in truth: why Jesus plus nothing still equals everything,” article by yours truly “Don't Panic,” Randall R. Greenwald “The Bird with a Leaf in Her Mouth,” Jared C. Wilson The Word Became Fresh: How to Preach from Old Testament Narrative Texts, Dale Ralph Davis Your Old Testament Sermon Needs to Get Saved: A Handbook for Preaching Christ from the Old Testament, David M. King Daily Grace: The Mockingbird Devotional, Vol. 2 Grace: So Much More Than You Know & So Much Better Than You Think, Brad J. Gray --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

In the Dirt 22 with Craig Dalton and Randall R. Jacobs. This week we drill further into the discussion around bike geometry, flip chips and fit in our continued exploration of the sport of gravel cycling. Geometry Geeks Support the podcast  Join The Ridership

HELLO SLOPS! This week's episode we cover various jams, preservatives, wedding jams, the whole deal.  Sound off in the comments about your thoughts on Keith Urban. We're very curious. If you want to support the podcast, check out our Patreon. We post mukbangs and random shit on there. Tina & her partner, Rafe will be going to Costa Rica for two weeks. You better believe there will be some footage of that on the Patreon.  www.patreon.com/slopcity XO ALL HAIL PUCINA- Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

Libbie's back with us for two more episodes (counting this one) We talk about Bunsen Burners for way too long, but it's about time we all revisit middle school or high school. If you guys want to support the podcast, please consider becoming a Patron. We post extra content on there and if you love the podcast, it's just a great way to support us.  www.patreon.com/slopcity XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RAAAAANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

You guessed it! Tony Alamo is BACK this week and he is nastier than ever. We talk about Rafe (Tina's partner) getting his gal bladder taken out, pirates and Tony Alamo. If you want to support the podcast, think about becoming a Patron. We post extra content on there that's just for Patrons ONLY. XO www.patreon.com/slopcity XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RAAAAANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

LIBBIE IS BACK! WE HAVE HER FOR THE NEXT FOUR EPISODES! She tells us all about the new movie she filmed with Billy Butler- "Baby Oopsie". We learn some hot *industry* terms this week.  Love y'all! Enjoyyyyyy XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

Rafe Williams, (Tina's partner) joins the podcast this week! We recorded it about a week ago and talk about his gallbladder problems with the good ol' country doctor. You'll understand.  You also should know that yesterday, Memorial Day, he had to have emergency surgery to have it taken out. He's doing great, really sore and excited to not be in so much pain. So, in a way Slop Citizens- we believe you pushed his gallbladder out of him before the episode dropped. ENJOY THE EPISODE WE LOVE Y'ALL! XO ALL HAIL PUCINA.  Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.  

SURPRISE! Libbie's back!!!!! (Kind of, she gets back next week but this episode was somehow missed by us & we are slackers) Enjoy hearing Libbie's sweet sweet voice. Love y'all! PS: If you want to support the podcast, think about becoming a Patron. We post extra content there only for Patrons- mukbangs, videos, dumb stuff.  www.patreon.com/slopcity XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.  

Comedian and regular guest host, Bobby Jaycox joins Slop City Podcast this week! We talk about Liberty Spikes, life with ADD, horror movies and a bunch of other slop. Libbie is out touring America with our gal Chelcie Lynn (Trailer Trash Tammy) until the first week of June. If you want to support the podcast, please check out our Patreon page! We post extra content there and it's a way to show us some love. www.patreon.com/slopcity XO ALL HAIL PUCINA RAAAAAAAAAANCH Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room

This episode, Libbie gets to heaven and has a very INTENSE conversation with God. We talk about Libbie going on tour with Chelcie Lynn, all the fun normal SLOP! Love y'all. If you want to support us, visit our Patreon at: www.patreon.com/slopcity XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.  

Y'all we have been doing Slop City for over two years. Seemed like it was right to revisit some old episodes.  Enjoy! Thanks for sticking with us through all of our old videos and when it used to look like we were playing chess on our first YouTube videos. Hahahahaha. Love y'all! Sign up for our Patreon if you want access to extra content. Mukbangs, extra videos, etc. Go to: www.patreon.com/slopcity XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

This week Randall and Craig take a look at the new Cervelo Aspero  and discuss its fit in the spectrum of gravel bikes.  We then dive head first into a discussion of the myriad of ways one achieves suspension on a gravel bike.   Cervelo Aspero Support the Podcast The Ridership Automated Transcript, please excuse the errors In the Dirt 20 Craig Dalton: [00:00:00] [00:00:00]Hello and welcome to in the dirt from the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. I'll be joined shortly by my cohost Randall Jacobs.  [00:00:13]Each week we muse about gravel cycling and how it's fitting into our lives. [00:00:18] These episodes are supported by listeners. Like you simply visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride to support the podcast. Additionally we encourage you to visit the ridership a free global cycling community [00:00:33] It's something we created to serve the cycling community. And also serve as a back channel for any suggestions you had for the podcast [00:00:41]With all that said let's dive right into my conversation with Randall.    .   hey Randall, [00:00:46] how are you doing? [00:00:47] [00:00:47] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:00:47] I'm doing well, Craig, [00:00:48] Craig Dalton: [00:00:48] how are you? I'm doing okay. A little bit rainy day here in Marin. So I'm glad I got a nice ride in yesterday. [00:00:55] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:00:55] Very much needed given the water table throughout California and fire risks coming up next season. So not a bad thing. [00:01:03] Craig Dalton: [00:01:03] Yeah. Fortunately they were actually, so I looked at the weather forecast and I made sure I got our ride in on Friday, which was great to see you. And then I got a nice ride in on Saturday. [00:01:11] So I feel relatively fulfilled with my last few days of riding. [00:01:16] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:01:16] Excellent. Yeah, I've gotten been back on the bikes since being back in the Bay and I've gotten a few rides in with friends and it's been great. Two people who are vaccinated. The statistics increasingly show that the risk of transmission is exceedingly [00:01:30] low, at least with the variants that are out there now. [00:01:32] And so being able to go out for a ride with a friend and not have it be, something that has to be overly worried about is quite a relief. [00:01:39]Craig Dalton: [00:01:39] Absolutely. I think we talked about this maybe on the last, in the dirt. It is a little bit awkward right now. I We run into people on the trails and there's still, I'm pulling my mask up to be courteous, but it, I feel like there's going to need to be some statements by the government to say, Hey, it's okay to be outside. [00:01:54] If you're not, if you're vaccinated and eventually we can get back to normal trail use. [00:02:00] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:02:00] Yeah. There's a lot that shows that outdoor mask usage, when you have a lot of space can be somewhat performative. But I do think that, especially in dense urban areas, there's still some value to that. [00:02:11] And plus people are just getting over this traumatic experience of Being afraid of this pandemic. And so when I'm out and about, I have my mask with me and if I pass somebody even if I'm sufficiently distant, if they're wearing a mask, I honor their boundaries by putting my mask up and just, just so everyone is comfortable, but we're slowly getting to a greater degree of normalcy while at the same time needing to remain vigilant. [00:02:34] Yeah. [00:02:35] Craig Dalton: [00:02:35] Yeah. And we certainly have to acknowledge that other parts of the world aren't. Getting as close as we are to returning back to normalcy. So keep masking up, keep protecting yourself and keep protecting others for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But on, onto the gravel world, I saw pretty cool announcement from  about their newest Sparrow. [00:02:53] Did you catch [00:02:54] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:02:54] that? I did. Yeah, it seems that they have shed some weights and gone internal with all the [00:03:00] cables and hoses and the I also, [00:03:02] Craig Dalton: [00:03:02] they did a good job of, aesthetically, it's a sexy, fast looking bike and I've always appreciated that they're very much in this race, bike category, which may not be for everybody. [00:03:13] But I think it is for some, and it's, it's an attractive package. [00:03:17] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:03:17] Yeah, and it's in the same mode of the, endurance, roadie type geometry. So this could be an excellent bike as the one bike for everything. Yeah. It's 72 head angle reasonably sporty handling and so on. [00:03:30]And they have this flip chip that is interesting in the fork too. So it's in the fork, the flip chip. [00:03:35] Craig Dalton: [00:03:35] Correct. And what's that [00:03:36] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:03:36] all about? So the way that, that they're marketing it in the way that they've implemented, it is it's really a way to maintain the same trail figure when you have tires of different radius. [00:03:49] And so if you have a six 50 by 47 tire, right? That's going to be 10 millimeters less radius than a 700 by 40. If you go 700 by 45, it's 15 millimeters. But just taking those two sizes. So it's going to be about 10, 10, 11 millimeters difference, depending on tire pressure and things like that. [00:04:07] And so they have a flip chip in there that keeps their, the trail figure at, around 58, 58 and a half millimeters, which they. Have defined as the sweet spot. And so if that's important to you to maintain the same trail with two different wheel tire volumes tire radio, and then that can be useful. [00:04:24] Craig Dalton: [00:04:24] So not effect of that. So what when for the uninitiated, what does that trail figure when you're [00:04:30] designing a bike and you said that, that 58 or whatever was what they thought was the ideal is that have to do with the steering quickness, the stability. What does it, how does it play out? [00:04:41] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:04:41] He can think of it partially as quickness. It's really like the proponent. It's also the propensity of the bison to want to travel in a straight line. And so it's hard to explain without a diagram, but just in terms of numbers, yeah. A lower trail figure is going to be a little bit more responsive. [00:04:59] So the ratio of input at the steering to output in terms of turning and so on we'll be great. Will be greater versus a. Larger trail figure, getting into 60, 65 or so that's going to be slower handling. So the inputs at the steering are going to be result in less outputs in terms of the bicycle actually turning. [00:05:19]Craig Dalton: [00:05:19] Okay. So if you talk about extremes, like if we talk about a chopper, that's got a very extreme high trail number. And as everybody can imagine riding a choppered out bicycle, when you turn the handlebar, it's very slow to steer. [00:05:34] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:05:34] Correct. And you end up with another problem. Which when you're talking about subtle differences in trail and, relatively steep head angles and the like, 70 to 73 range then you know, we'll flop, isn't an issue, but if you've ever been on like a really slacked out mountain bike, you'll notice that like the bicycle when it's straight. [00:05:54] It's at one height. And then when you turn it one way or another, the bicycle actually drops a little bit. So the bicycle has a natural [00:06:00] propensity to want to turn in. And in fact, the more it's turning the faster it's going to turn. Cause there's the weight, your weights pressing down is causing that turning it's supporting that turning. [00:06:11]And so that, that can be an issue when bikes get really, [00:06:13] Craig Dalton: [00:06:13] so that's the net effect on climbing, but the net effect on descending, if we talk about on the mountain bike side is. Just stability through rough [00:06:21] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:06:21] terrain, correct? Correct. And also when you're descending, you're, you're pointed downhill. [00:06:27] So your head angle relative to the downward vector of gravity is going to be more steep when you're going downhill. And so the steering characteristics are different. And so there's a bunch the variables here. [00:06:39] Craig Dalton: [00:06:39] Yeah. No, it makes sense. As I jumped from my. Heavily cross-country oriented 29 or a mountain bike to a more kind of all mountain bike that was full suspension. [00:06:49] It became way back in Slack and climbing became maybe less fun, but descending became a hell of a lot more fun. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Particular bike. I know if with the gravel athlete, a lot of times maybe you don't get into thinking about the geometry and what it's going to do when you're buying the bike, but you mentioned that. [00:07:09]The flip ship is just making it a neutral change between tire sizes. If you had two wheel sets on there, right? [00:07:16] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:07:16] Yeah. And neutral in terms of, again, this trail figure. So steering input to steering output and the propensity of the bike to want to travel in a straight line. And this is one way to achieve this. [00:07:26]And the other thing that, I look at this and it's okay, that's great. [00:07:30] But actually through the bikes geo in a little CAD program, and I just, queried what if I took the just. The standard, 51 millimeter trail position, and to change the wheels without flipping the chip, what would be the the impact on trail and the impact on trails only three millimeters. [00:07:49] So we're actually not, I'm not sure that the juice is worth the squeeze. With regards to having this extra components three millimeters of trail may be noticeable to somebody who's really can appreciate that subtlety, but frankly our bike actually has the same front end geo. [00:08:05]The DOB one is the same front NGO, 72 degree head angle in the large and a 51 offset. And I've written it with the 700 by forties and the node, the difference is subtle, but actually. The higher radius tire, like a 700 by 40 will, oftentimes you'd be running that tire when you're doing more straight, flat stuff anyways. [00:08:25] And maybe you want slower trail when you put on that higher rate, the greater radius tire. And so that change in trail is actually a benefit because it's it makes sense for the the tire being mounted. So are you [00:08:37] Craig Dalton: [00:08:37] suggesting maybe this particular implicate implementation of a flip ship didn't go far enough? [00:08:42]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:08:42] And think that there's it is useful if you are, if you really have a a sense of the subtlety when you change this, but don't expect a radical difference when flipping the chip versus [00:08:54] Craig Dalton: [00:08:54] changing the tire. It sounds if you're committed to one wheel size or another. When you put the six fifties on and you [00:09:00] put the chip in that particular position, you've got the bike that the Savallo engineer designed, correct? [00:09:06] Precisely. So if you're like a one wheel set kind of guy or girl. You got, what's promised to you by the engineers, but it's not necessarily trying to change the performance from more of a road bike experience to more of a off-road bike experience. [00:09:22] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:09:22] Correct? Yeah. It's really keeping the gravel focused experience. [00:09:27]Consistent across different wheel sizes though, at the same time, like there is a, I'd have to take a look at how they've implemented here, but presumably one position there would be well, so there's a, trade-off here too, in that you, in a road bike geo you want. You also want the generally the handlebar position maybe to be lower and maybe the axle to be more underneath your where your hands are on the bar. [00:09:54] So the either bars going out, the axle coming in, so that front ends more planted because on the road take like a high-speed road descent. You really want that front end planted because you have the grip and you want to feel you don't want the wheel wallowing. And then a lot of your braking performances there too on the dirt, it's exactly the opposite. [00:10:13] You want to be able to get your weight back. You have limited traction up front, you don't want the front wheel to wash out. And so you'd want to be a little bit more upright the axle a little bit further out and so on. And it's hard to this, this implementation doesn't really achieve anything with regards to changing that dynamic. [00:10:27] So it doesn't really make it more of a road, [00:10:30] more or less of a road bike in different positions. It's really about again, maintaining consistent trail. Across the two different wheel sizes that it accommodates. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:10:38]Craig Dalton: [00:10:38] I think it's interesting. It's an interesting model. I know a number of people who ride this bike, a number of people, frankly, who have given up their road bike, because this one was so good at riding on the road, as well as off-road, as you mentioned, very close to an endurance road bike, geo with the exception that they D they have built in decent tire clearance. [00:10:57] I think at a six 50, you can go all the way out to a 49. [00:11:01] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:11:01] Correct. Yeah. And I can't recall what they allow with a 700 I'm guessing at least 700 by 40. Maybe it fits a 42 or 45. I think it was a 42. Yeah to overlap, probably come. That becomes an issue in some of the smaller sizes in particular, beyond that point, which gets into yet another one of these like variables that have to be considered when you're looking at all these geometry PM parameters. [00:11:24] Cause you can have the perfect geo, but if if you're gonna have to overlap, that's going to be a real compromise and may result in some safety issues. [00:11:31] Craig Dalton: [00:11:31] Yeah, for sure. I feel fortunate that I'm in the medium or 56 kind of size because typically I do all right. When it comes to toe overlap, [00:11:40] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:11:40] Yeah and I think we did one 70 cranks fee or one 60 fives. [00:11:44] I would not [00:11:45] Craig Dalton: [00:11:45] capitulate at the time in which I bought my bike and I went one 72, five, but I think I'm sold now that I would go one 70 in the future. [00:11:53] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:11:53] Yeah. Proportional, crank length helps with that a little bit and allows you to do a slightly tighter front-end geo on the smaller bikes without adding to that [00:12:00] risk of a tow, right? [00:12:01] Craig Dalton: [00:12:01] Yeah. And I don't have a particularly large foot, so that helps as well. It makes me skirt, the issue entirely. [00:12:08] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:12:08] So this gets into, so we talked about a little bit about geo. The other thing we wanted to discuss today is the advent of, suspension. We're starting to see suspension particularly for, front end suspension on gravel bikes. [00:12:18] Craig Dalton: [00:12:18] Yeah. I've been obsessing a little bit over it. Just trying to figure out the best way to articulate a conversation around suspension, because I think. A lot of times, and this may be true for some of the listeners out there. The moment you mentioned the word suspension, you get a hard stop. [00:12:36] I don't want to hear about it. I've got no interest in suspension whatsoever, but the reality is every single bike out there in the world is suspended in some way. [00:12:45] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:12:45] Absolutely. We use pneumatic tires. Exactly. As a suspension system. [00:12:49] Craig Dalton: [00:12:49] And when we talk so much about tire pressure, as we have ad nauseum on this podcast, that is the number one spot in which a lot of people are getting their suspension. [00:13:00] Correct. [00:13:00] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:13:00] Yeah. And it, it is a pretty ideal place to get it too, because there are other benefits that come with getting your suspension from the tires. It is a rolling efficiency, comfort, traction, and so on versus say adding a suspension fork you're getting. It's helping with traction for sure. [00:13:17] And that's one of the key benefits and helping with comfort, but you're adding a tremendous amount of weight and potentially some slop in the front end. So even if you block that out, it's never going to have the responsiveness when you get up and [00:13:30] stand up and really hammer on the pedals that are, a standard solid fork would have. [00:13:34] Yeah. [00:13:34]Craig Dalton: [00:13:34] I think that's an experiment it's like going back to tire pressure. I've got an experiment that every rider should do. And I encourage is go out there and ride on high tire pressure and see what happens in terms of traction and control. [00:13:49] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:13:49] Oh, geez. [00:13:50] Craig Dalton: [00:13:50] For us, for us and me, particularly here in Marin, like that, the repercussions become a very stark and are delivered very quickly. [00:13:58] Like you can't, you just can't keep control of the bike. [00:14:01] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:14:01] You get a little bit of a Pogo effect. And you just can't maintain traction because you have a much smaller contact. [00:14:07] Craig Dalton: [00:14:07] Yep. Yeah, because I think you've got traction as one of the vectors that you need to think about around suspension. You've got just overall performance and how it, how the. [00:14:17] Bike is feeling underneath your body, right? So we can only all take a certain amount of abuse from these bicycles. Sure. So again, figuring out suspension on the bike is critical. First starting point is, tire volume and tire pressure, and to put some specific numbers around it. And we riffed on this, on our ride. [00:14:38] If you've got a six 50 by. 47 millimeter tire. How many millimeters of suspension do you think you get? If you're running a reasonably low tire pressure? [00:14:48] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:14:48] So this is pure speculate. And if somebody hasn't done a study on this, I'm sure that we'll see this at some point. Think about like really when I set my tire pressure I'm [00:15:00] setting, when I have my tires on on a nice wide rim, so I can run them low without them squirming around. So in the case of the 60 feet by 47, this is like 25 millimeters. Plus I run on a 27.4 internal and that's plenty wide. So then from there it's what are the, what is the lowest pressure I can run and not bottom out the rim, given the train I'm riding and how hard I'm riding it. [00:15:21]And so wanting to have a little bit of buffer in there. The one way I think of it as like over the course of the ride, I'm probably using. Two thirds of the tires travel. So 47 and be around 30 millimeters or so of the tires travel, just going over rough stuff as I'm, descending and so on. [00:15:40]And then for those bigger hits, I still have a little bit of buffer there and the pressure is actually increasing slightly as the tire is being compressed. And so there's almost like a, it's a, it has a ramped air spring. Yeah. [00:15:53] Craig Dalton: [00:15:53] And I think as we talk about other ways in which bikes are getting suspended, just having that 30 millimeter odd figure in our head is going to be interesting for discussion. [00:16:02] Obviously, if you're running a 700 by 40 tire, you're getting less than that. So maybe it's, 22 or something, but as a listener keeps that in mind as we move forward, as some of I've been riding the Redshift suspension STEM for gosh, well over a year now, in fact, I just. Got sent the pro version to shed a little weight on it. [00:16:25] I put the thing on, I initially thought that, I'd ride it and test it and let [00:16:30] people know what I thought about it and I'd take it off, but I haven't taken it off. And it's because it is just blended in the movement and motion, which I've set up to be around 15 millimeters. So again, half of what I'm getting out of the tires is subtle enough. [00:16:44]And the performance changes is in my mind, positive that I keep that I've kept that on this whole time. So that's yet another way to achieve suspension on the bike. [00:16:54]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:16:54] And with that STEM, they have different elastomers that you can put in so that you could get like the first bit of travel. Maybe your tires are more sensitive. [00:17:02] So the first bit of travel is coming from the tires. And it's only when you have a bigger hit that suspension STEM is starting to engage. Yeah. And then [00:17:10] Craig Dalton: [00:17:10] you do have some frame manufacturers building a little bit of travel into their frames. I should state that in a different way. You have some that are building, the capacity for travel within a rigid frame. [00:17:22] And then others obviously are gone. I've gone to completely fully suspended route like the Niner, for example. [00:17:30] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:17:30] Yeah. And I think maybe we start with the first one. So this would be like the steerer based suspension systems. And I think that on the one hand it is ultimately If we put aside the E any sort of structural complexity or compromise it's created with such a design in terms of the handlebar and not rotating that's a benefit relative to a suspension STEM, right? [00:17:52] So you get, with your bars, I assume that you rotate them back a tiny bit so that when they're fully compressed, your hands aren't sliding forward on the [00:18:00] leavers, is that right? Yeah. This [00:18:00] Craig Dalton: [00:18:00] is a slight adjustment to be made. Yeah. [00:18:02] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:18:02] So a small adjustment. And I think that adjustment, frankly is a better compromise than, getting a suspension steer, which keeps the bars oriented in the same way. [00:18:11] They just dropped down, but adds a huge amount of complexity in an area that is there's a lot of stress and it's very high consequences. If something goes wrong and if a part fails or something like that, and nothing bad happens while you still, you can't just swap it up. Apart really easily. [00:18:27] Or if you don't want suspension on the front anymore, I guess you could lock it out. But with, a suspension STEM, you could always just put in a normal STEM. Yep. [00:18:35] Craig Dalton: [00:18:35] Yeah. And there's also the rear end of the bike works. Some people are doing some trickery. I know BMC with their URS bike has a little bit of movement designed into the back end and even going back so far as their hard tail mountain bikes, which I owned one from about 10 years ago, they always brought the stays in. [00:18:54] Pretty super low on the seat tube. So you got a little bit of movement designed into the carbon fiber. Now we're not, we are talking about a little bit what might you guess, like five millimeters? [00:19:04]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:19:04] I think it's more than that. So in the case of that design, I'd have to look it up. Anecdotally, I have actually been to the factory where that is, is designed to without, as manufactured in Southern China. [00:19:13] So I've seen how it's built and they're just using an elastomer in the upper part of the seat stays. And then the inherent flex in the carbon chain stays in order to achieve. Probably if I had to guess it's probably on the order of 22 millimeters of so or so. Okay. So it's not nothing. [00:19:30] [00:19:30] Craig Dalton: [00:19:30] Yeah. Yeah. In the grand scheme of things, as we're adding things up. Let's do it as to what's your maximum amount of suspension that you could build into a bike. That's not insignificant, [00:19:40] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:19:40] but I'm guessing they're adding a solid 200 grams or so to the frame to achieve that. And so you have the additional, the addition of the weights, plus again, as a road bike, you get out of the pedals, you want that, that responsiveness, and this is something that's inevitably sapping some energy. [00:19:54] So there's always some trade off that bike. Of course is very much optimized for the off-road, all day in the saddle, hammering sort of scenario. You can see it reflected in the geo has a pretty long wheel base a shorter STEM pretty slacked out, front end. I think it's on the order of 79 or less than sorry, 69 degrees, 69 and a half degrees. [00:20:15]That's pretty, pretty slacked. So you wouldn't really want to use that as a road bike anyways. It would feel somewhat piggish on the road. It's probably a good compromise for that specific application that bike is designed for. So then the question is do you want a bike that is really targeted? [00:20:30] Or do you want a bike that is very much general purpose and versatile? Yeah. [00:20:35] Craig Dalton: [00:20:35] I think this is really interesting to me because it reminds me of the journey that mountain bikes have gone on over the decades and how you really started to see the. Emergence of, these cross-country specific bikes that had these specific attributes and specific handling characteristics and you had on the other end of the extreme, downhill and the Enduro bikes that are completely different beasts at this point. [00:20:58] Yeah. And [00:21:00] similarly, in the gravel market, I feel like there's maybe a little bit intention around the existence of all these bikes. Whereas you don't see that on the mountain bike side. When I see someone with a DH bike, I just assume they like to go downhill and they don't like to go uphill. [00:21:16] You know what I mean? That's just your choice. That's where you're looking to optimize. And we're starting to see that around gravel bikes that you're you, as we've always said, gravel bikes, it's going to be so dependent on where you are and what you want to ride. How you're going to set these things up. [00:21:31] So when you see a friend from out of town, come with a radically different setup, don't start Hocking them crap about their setup. Start to embrace and understand they're going to kill it in one section of the ride where you've elected to compromise the other direction on your bike, potentially. [00:21:46]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:21:46] Yes though. I still I have a pretty strong point of view on this. Which, which how amount of not shy to share, I've shared it before, which is start with a bike that is as versatile as possible. So this is where I really like, we mentioned the, a Sparrow, it has like more of an endurance road, geometry. [00:22:03]It, that, and then make accommodations to that bike such that it allows it to go as much into kind of off-road borderline cross-country as possible without compromising, that on-road feel. And you can do that. In a way that actually you get the best of both worlds and the trick to it is a dropper post because with the dropper post, if you think about one way you can do it is with Gio MITRE to make it more competent off-road so you [00:22:30] longer wheel base shorter STEM slacker, head angle more trail and everything that will make the bike want to travel in a straight line, give it stability and make you feel more confident. [00:22:39]But the dropper posts. You can have the snappy or front end geo shift, your center of mass down and back over the rear wheel. Now your front wheel is nice in lights and can roll in sail over terrain. You don't have a bunch of mass distributed over that front axle in that situation. [00:22:55]Those road surface that the trail surface is not causing significant torques. Torques to be applied at the handlebars. You can control that and I'm using a rear wheel for speed control. And so you can have a bike that has a snappier on-road geometry. But then when you go into downhill mode, you can get your weight so far back that you still have immense competency. [00:23:15]We ride a bike that has the same front end. Is this a Sparrow with the thesis and with the dropper, you can ride it, down some pretty gnarly stuff. You're really limited by tires. Rather than [00:23:26] Craig Dalton: [00:23:26] geometry. Yeah. I don't think we specified that the sort of the greatest travel in suspension between the bike and body is the body. [00:23:34]If you allow the bike room to to you to really use your legs and arms and knees and elbows to absorb shocks, that's where the big suspension is [00:23:45] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:23:45] happening. And allowing the, by having your upper body nice and loose and the front end, nice and light. The, not only can you be using your arms as some suspension, but the bicycle can rock. [00:23:57] Underneath you and dance underneath you as [00:24:00] your, your legs and your arms are taking that up. And once you learn that technique, it is a night and day difference in terms of one's ability to ride even pretty rough stuff. Quite hard on these bikes. [00:24:12] Craig Dalton: [00:24:12] It's true. The final category we didn't actually discuss yet is the emergence of gravel specific suspension forks. [00:24:19] Yeah. Which would probably be, from an equipment perspective. The place where you could gain the most travel in a single location. [00:24:28]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:24:28] I'm still very much in the dropper post camp in that regard given the amount of travel with these forks, but what's your take on, have you written one yet? [00:24:36] I [00:24:36] Craig Dalton: [00:24:36] haven't I should say I've written the Fox acts a little bit, but never on my home terrain. And similarly I've demoed a lefty Oliver, but never really in a place where I could compare it specifically to what I've, what I'm used to. I will say, when you make comments about, your setup versus mine, I increasingly feel inclined to have more suspension. [00:25:02] And I think about it. In the context of, my rides versus yours, even if we're doing the same loop, because you're riding over to meet me from the city, my ride may have 90% dirt and 10% pavement. And the mileage you ride from the city may put you at, 25% pavement, just throwing something out there. [00:25:22] And do you [00:25:23] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:25:23] have a dedicated road bike still? [00:25:24] Craig Dalton: [00:25:24] I don't. And it's a great point, Randall I've all, but given up on road riding, and I [00:25:30] may on occasion, I've mentioned this before, like a friend may come into town that just rides on the road and I'm, I'm happily, I'll happily join them for the company versus my desire to ride on the road. [00:25:39] So more and more, I find myself willing to relinquish the road part of the performance of the bike and traded off for off-road performance. [00:25:50]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:25:50] And that totally makes sense. And that's where I think starting to look at one of these more focused machines may make sense for some writers. I still am of the mind though, that you can like, so there's an evolution of what we have now where, you run a bigger tire up front. [00:26:07] So imagine a two to five upfront and a 2.0 in the rear and imagine there's some magic through which the geometry could be changed slightly so that the front end comes up a little bit. The bigger front tire is further out. So the geometry slows a little bit. So now you have the suspension of that extra volume plus shifting your weight back and increasing the stability. [00:26:27] But then when you throw your road wheels on, you can change the geometry and still maintain that snappy that snappy handling. This is possible. And look forward to talking about that in the future [00:26:37] Craig Dalton: [00:26:37] mean. I think that's super cool. And I totally hear you on the tire size. Cause if we go back to our kind of armchair calculation about getting 30 millimeters of travel out of a 47, maybe when I'm going up to a two to five, I'm actually taking that up to 45 millimeters of travel in the tire. [00:26:57] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:26:57] Yeah, it's a 57 millimeter tire at [00:27:00] 2.25. So yeah, you could use a significant chunk of that and have that tire running at lower pressure. So it's going to be even more sensitive to the initial hit as well. Yeah, [00:27:10] Craig Dalton: [00:27:10] I think it's interesting. Again, I harken back to just the world of mountain bikes and how everybody sets it up based on how they want to enjoy their personal rigs. [00:27:20] And I, for 1:00 AM radically open. To radical diversity in gravel, bike, setups, and design. [00:27:29] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:27:29] I think I really like these new even more aggressive, gravel bikes that we're seeing that are designed for like more aggressive, single track and so on with a flat handle bar and dual suspension and a bigger fork. [00:27:40] I think they're called down country. [00:27:44] Craig Dalton: [00:27:44] I was going to say, that's absolutely where you lose me on the flat bar, gravel bikes. I wouldn't have it. I, yeah you, it's a bridge too far into close, potentially to mountain bikes. Cause you know, for many of the listeners, they may not own a mountain bike. [00:27:56] I know a lot of gravel athletes come to the sport from. From road cycling. And I will say I'm still a big fan of mountain bikes. They're just they're fun in a different way. And I continued to ride them to this day for sure. [00:28:10] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:28:10] And I'm still like minimal number of bikes for the maximum amount of experiences is what I'm all about. [00:28:16] So I'll be continuing to bang that drum for a while, [00:28:21] Craig Dalton: [00:28:21] right on. The conversation was a lot of fun. I hope the listener got something out of it again there's a lot of products coming to market, lots of different ways to [00:28:30] personalize your ride experience based on where you are. [00:28:33] And yeah. If you're interested in commenting, we're always here in the ridership forum for you to meet us and talk to other members of the community. [00:28:43] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:28:43] Yeah, we'd love to meet you there. There's a lot of let's take a moment to talk about the ridership real quick. These we're starting to see some interesting dynamics there in terms of now that people are getting vaccinated, starting to coordinate rides, reaching out, being like, Hey, I'm in, this particular region, anyone nearby. [00:28:57] And we're seeing people chime in and be like, yeah, let's get a ride going next weekend. This is exactly the mission of this is to facilitate those offline connections. The more people that we have participating, the more of those connect, more of those connections there are to be made. [00:29:10] So we'd love to have you join us for that as well as all the components nerdery and route sharing and all that good stuff. Yeah, [00:29:17] Craig Dalton: [00:29:17] totally. It's a blast seeing that community take off in different ways that. We aren't guiding. It's just happening naturally as these things do as when you're a member of the community you contribute and you navigate and you create, yeah. [00:29:32] If you have questions, you get out there and just get in the mix. It's been a lot of fun to see. [00:29:37] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:29:37] Yeah. And a reminder, everyone, we did buy a group rabid GPS account. That is offered to members free of charge. And if you'd like to sign up, just go to the ridership.com and you can get into the Slack and start getting some of these benefits right [00:29:51] Craig Dalton: [00:29:51] on. [00:29:52] Perfect. Gretel. I will talk to you soon, my friend. [00:29:55] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:29:55] Yeah, I'm looking forward to it again soon. All right. Bye. [00:29:58]Craig Dalton: [00:29:58] So [00:30:00] that's it for this week's edition of, in the dirt, from the gravel ride podcast. Thank you for spending part of your week with us this week, we'll be back next week with a long form interview on the gravel ride. If you're interested in supporting the podcast, please visit. www.buymeacoffee.com/the gravel ride. [00:30:20] And if you're interested in joining the ridership, a global cycling community. Simply visit www.theridership.com. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels    

This week's episode is business as usual. Enjoy, love y'all. Libbie Higgins and Tina Dybal are the hosts of Slop City Podcast. They are both comedians and improvisers and host the greatest podcast in the world.  If you want access to MORE content from us, check out our Patreon page! We post food reviews and extra content on there for Patrons only! www.patreon.com/slopcity XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room RANCHHHHHHHHHHH  

Libbie is officially on the road with Chelcie Lynn as of this week! She'll be back in STL at the end of the month. This week's episode we accidentally do a mukbang. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

We're back this week after a long and incredible week in PHOENIX!!!!! Thanks to everyone that came out, we love you. This week we cover our time in Phoenix, a dingleberry TP that was left in Tina's butthole. Also, we talk about Louisiana and what to do/say when you're there. If you want access to extra content, sign up for our Patreon!!! We post weekly videos, it's essentially like getting another podcast each week. WOWIE.  Check it out:     www.patreon.com/slopcity XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

This week Randall and Craig discuss the new ENVE Custom Road Project, SPD Power Meter Pedals from Garmin and what vaccinations are going to mean for our own group riding.   Links: ENVE Custom Road Garmin Rally SPD Power Pedal DynaPlug Support the Podcast Join The Ridership Full Transcription: [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of in the dirt from the gravel ride podcast i'm your host craig dalton i'll be joined shortly by my co-host randall jacobs. [00:00:10]Every two weeks Randall and I discuss how gravel cycling is fitting into our lives in that particular week. And also look at recent product drops and events being announced in the industry. It's been quite quiet over the last few months, but I feel like with vaccinations coming, we're starting to see new product launches and a lot more talk about events. In person later this year. [00:00:35] [00:00:35]If you're a first time listener. Welcome. In the alternating weeks, I have long form interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. With a goal of shedding light on the ever nuance sport of gravel cycling. [00:00:50]We've got quite an extensive back catalog of episodes with about a hundred already recorded. So if there's an event or product or an athlete that you're curious [00:01:00]About just scroll back in your podcast feed. I think you'll find we've covered a lot of territory over the last two and a half years. The podcast is sponsored by a small number of supporters, but mainly by listeners, like you. Simply visit, buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. [00:01:19]And choose how you'd like to support the show. Your support is greatly appreciated. With that said let's dive right in to this week show. [00:01:30]  [00:01:30] Randall. Good to see ya. [00:01:33] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:01:33] Good to see you as well. Craig, how have you been? [00:01:35] Craig Dalton: [00:01:35] I've been well , for some reason it feels like I haven't talked to you in a long time this week. [00:01:40]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:01:40] I have been largely off grid. So, I on a road trip was in death Valley with my colleague, Sam, and then now I'm in Southern Utah and where I've been for the past couple of weeks. [00:01:50] So it's been a good amount of time since we, [00:01:53] Craig Dalton: [00:01:53] yeah, that makes sense. That's awesome. I forgot that you were intending on meeting up with Sam. Did you guys end up camping and doing some riding together? [00:02:00]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:02:00] So we left bikes at home and I've actually left my bike at home entirely for this roughly four week trip intentionally. [00:02:06] So a lot of trail running and hiking and long walks and so on. Just because of. Yeah, I figured it's one. I have a Prius camper and so I can fit the bike, but it's a lot more work to pull it out and then put in, pull it out, lock it up, outside the car to camp and then, throw it back in and so on. [00:02:21] But then also I just wanted some time away from the bike to, so I could fall back in love with it. And I've been really enjoying trail running and going up a little bit of light mountaineering and things like that on this trip. And so. So yeah, time away. So they do [00:02:34] Craig Dalton: [00:02:34] not take away your gravel cyclist membership card if you cycle for a month. [00:02:40]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:02:40] I think I think I got a lifetime membership for the amount that I've put into this particular space. Hopefully people will forgive me for being off the bike for a bit. Yeah. It [00:02:48] Craig Dalton: [00:02:48] often feels that way. I think, I growing up in the eighties as a cyclist, more primarily in the nineties, obviously. [00:02:56] There was this going sort of vision as a [00:03:00] cyclist that you just have to ride all the time in order to be a cyclist. So it's, I'm stuck in that mentality. I sort of start to get itchy. If I take a prolonged amount of time off the bike. [00:03:12] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:03:12] Yeah, I'll be honest. Like I, my relationship to the bike is very different than it used to be. [00:03:16] I used to have that kind of compulsive need to put the miles in, but I'm really enjoying both the change of scenery, change of lifestyle, still working on the road, of course, but just a completely different Headspace and out of my usual routines and the bike being one of those. When I get back to the Bay area, I'll definitely be doing plenty of riding. [00:03:34] And then again in Boston when I'm out that way, starting probably in may. [00:03:38]Craig Dalton: [00:03:38] Yeah. I mean, the thing is, and the truth is, and everybody listening knows it. Like the bike is always there for you. And that's the beautiful thing about it. Certainly when my son was born that first year, I was pretty light on the bike and that predated my interest in gravel cycling. [00:03:53] And when I came back and discovered gravel cycling, I just sort of grabbed hold of it and was all in again. [00:04:00] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:04:00] Well, one thing I will say that I'm quite excited about is vaccination. So you got vaccinated. [00:04:05] Craig Dalton: [00:04:05] Yeah. So I'm one shot in. [00:04:07] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:04:07] Yeah. So you have the next [00:04:09] Craig Dalton: [00:04:09] one coming up. Yeah. The next one's coming up, I think April 15th. [00:04:12] And it was quite a powerful experience actually. I took the time to talk to a lot of the people who were volunteering at the vaccination site and they were like, you wouldn't believe it. Like we have people burst into tears of relief. Just to have started that process. And I definitely felt [00:04:30] that, I mean, by no means am I being cavalier in my life and my protection at this point, one shot in, and obviously my family is not vaccinated yet, but I have a sense of hope. [00:04:40] I'm really excited about more of my friends getting vaccinated and just slowly returning back. [00:04:48] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:04:48] I definitely feel that the combination of the, having the pandemic and then having the long, cold winter and both of those lifting and having the thing really excited about as well. [00:04:59] I'm here potting with friends who are themselves vaccinated met up with a couple other friends who were in the medical field and are vaccinated. And we took precautions, but we could relax a little bit and. By the time I get to Boston, I hope that group rides can be a thing again, granted with appropriate precautions and so on and trying to not have too many people out and keep some distancing and so on. [00:05:18] But with some  responsible protocol, that being a thing. Yeah. [00:05:23] Craig Dalton: [00:05:23] Curious to learn sort of how we all have appropriate protocols. I know that the ridership forum, one of the members posted an article originated from USA cycling, but also offered and layered in a lot of his. Personal precautions and experiences and riding throughout the pandemic. [00:05:41] It's just going to be strange. I went on a ride over the weekend of my largest group ride in, 14 months, six people, three people vaccinated. So obviously we were massed up and trying to stay distanced, but it's weird. It's awkward to sort of be half in half out. And I think we're all going to go [00:06:00] through with this. [00:06:01]The next four or five months potentially, and it's just important that we stay strong and conservative so that we can go into the winter as a country in a good, in good position. [00:06:14] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:06:14] I think the other thing that we need to be mindful of is that these vaccines are very effective, but are not 100% effective and with new variants and so on, we might need boosters. [00:06:25] And, some degree of precaution protocol will be necessary for awhile, but to be able to know that the worst of it is over or hopefully over is an immense relief. So yeah, absolutely. With you there. I think we get mine in April when I'm back in the Bay. I think California is going to. Offer them to everybody starting either on the first or the 15th of April. [00:06:44] Craig Dalton: [00:06:44] Yeah. This is the 15th of April. It's open to everybody. And I do think, the it was like an assembly line where I went, it was in a high school gymnasium and they were just pumping people through, which is great to see. So I do think if you're motivated, you're going to be able to get in there. [00:06:59] And I, I hope my wife has sort of similarly is just going to get in on the earlier side of April yeah. To get our household vaccinated. Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. But this is not a pandemic COVID medical podcast. We're here to talk about gravel bikes as usual. I feel like a few companies are starting to put new things out there, which is exciting because a few more products coming to our desks. [00:07:22] I know you sort of, one of them caught your eye and a couple of caught my eye that we should talk about. [00:07:28] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:07:28] Yeah. So mine would [00:07:30] be the Donna plugger from Dyna plug. And not that it's anything radically new, it's just a much less expensive solution to their already great Dyna plug set up. And I've been using the bacon strips just because I found the dyno plugs cheap, even though the dyno plugs are. [00:07:45] Arguably more effective or less, less fussy with this, I really have no excuse and I think neither does this will be something that I'm recommending to pretty much all of our right well, to all of our riders from here on in 25 bucks comes with four of the plugs. You can get the replacement plugs as well. [00:07:59] It's super lightweight and it just works. And it's way better than having to pull off your wheel and pop a bead and dump out your ceilings and pull a valve or pull a valve STEM out and so on and throw a tube in. So. Yeah, good job, Donna plug in making this more accessible. [00:08:15] Craig Dalton: [00:08:15] Yeah, I think that's cool. Just to drive that point home. [00:08:17] I mean, they brought the price down from 50 or 60 plus dollars in their original kits that I'd been using previously down to what is it? 29 95. So that's awesome. [00:08:28] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:08:28] 24 99, I think with these. And I believe that they're made domestically as well domestic to the U S so that's cool. [00:08:34] Craig Dalton: [00:08:34] Yeah, that's awesome. [00:08:36] It was funny. I was out Riding Laurel Del maybe three weeks ago. And I had just. I had gotten the GoPro max camera. So I've been playing around with my three 60 photography and my buddy, Jason, shout out to Jason. If he's listening, he is bombing down. There's no tomorrow through Laurel Dell having the time of his life. [00:08:55] I think he was thinking I was going to catch him, but his speed and velocity was [00:09:00] so intense. Like I kept getting close to them, him, and then losing him again. And he blasted through the rock garden at the bottom before the Creek crossing and the tire just explodes upon crossing the river. [00:09:17] So we were he was like, that was just the greatest five minutes of my cycling career. And we're like, now it's going to be the worst four hours of your life. As we hike up to the Ridge and try to find your way home, et cetera. But we had it, we had a couple of plugs which is why I'm mentioning it. [00:09:35] We plugged the tire, but it was too far gone. He'd actually dented the rim and we did have to pull it out. We put a 700 by 30 inner tube for a six 50 by 43 tire. So it was sort of overinflated on the inner tube in, and quite a bit wonky on the way out. But, we were able to ride all the way home, which I considered a victory. [00:10:02] He finally reflated again, right when we got to mill Valley. So someone was able to come back and pick them up. [00:10:09] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:10:09] Now it makes me think. He might want to add another solution, which is we have a few riders mentioned my friend Isaac before who's in the ridership and he uses the foam inserts. I can't recall which ones he's using. [00:10:20] It's the air force or one of the others, but these detonating tires and denting rooms in the process, maybe that's something to add into the package. [00:10:28] Craig Dalton: [00:10:28] Yeah. I think if you're a larger [00:10:30] rider, That seems to make a lot of sense. I didn't really think about it in that context, Jason's definitely well, over six foot tall, a bigger guy, so he's hitting things hard. [00:10:39] Those crushed core or other types of foam inserts might be something of interest. [00:10:44] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:10:44] Yeah. I actually just recommended it to one of our riders who wanted to start exploring lower pressures with our carbon rims. And it's well, they're very robustly made. And when you run them too low and you hit a rock, it's going to be a very expensive repair. [00:10:58] So, yeah. Yeah, the people I know who ride them really like them adds a little bit of weight, but if you're riding that aggressively, who cares, you're already on a very efficient machine. Yeah. [00:11:07] Craig Dalton: [00:11:07] Particularly if you're a bigger guy or gal, like why not? Right. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that I have here, yeah. [00:11:14] I was going to say the thing that I've picked up over the transom was these new power meter pedals from Garmin, they're called the rally power meters. And they're built on an SPD chassis, which to my knowledge is the first sort of SPD style, power meter pedal that's existed. [00:11:36] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:11:36] I feel like there may have been another one made by Expedo or some, one of the other Taiwanese pedal makers. [00:11:44]Don't quote me on that, but these definitely look really well-made SPDs, as I ride them. I'm a big fan. They're ubiquitous. They're a little bit heavy. It adds like relative to an XD. I'm seeing XDS at 170 grams a piece. These are 220 grams. So an extra 50 grams per [00:12:00] pedal. But dual-sided power meters. [00:12:02] You can transfer them to any bike. They install really easily and you don't have to buy a set of pedals because these are your pedals. So, in all those regards, it makes sense. They're a bit pricey. I think there a thousand [00:12:13] Craig Dalton: [00:12:13] bucks. Yeah. Over a thousand bucks. So definitely pricey. I mean, I think, yeah. Well, you would know better than I, what can you get into a crank ARM-based power meter for, [00:12:23]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:12:23] so if you have crank arms that have a flat inner surface there's a good chance that four I's power meters will work for you. And this is what we recommend to our riders. Cause we have our cranks are hollow, forged aluminum, so it's a smooth surface on the back. [00:12:37] And so this is like a nine grand power meter that you can get either with a coin cell or rechargeable. They both have their upsides and downsides. I like the coin sell myself cause it lasts a really long time and you replace it really easily. And there's no port to get contaminated, but different strokes for different folks. [00:12:54]And it's 300 bucks. Now the downside is that you have to remove your crank set and ship your crank out and be without your bike for two weeks. So that's a bummer, but it works really well. It's single sided. So it's not giving you. You an average of the two sides. It's not giving you a sense of any sort of imbalance, but most people are pretty balanced and frankly, like it's accurate enough for you to understand your progress. [00:13:17] And I think that's really the critical thing. [00:13:18] Craig Dalton: [00:13:18] Yeah. Imagine if you're a professional athlete, knowing about a little bit of imbalance between your legs is something you can work on with your coach. But as the average athlete, as you said, we're, hopefully mostly balanced [00:13:30] and it works itself out in the wash. [00:13:32] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:13:32] Yeah. Yeah. And as far as the weight is concerned, nine grams. So you could actually buy the cheapest Shimano pedals, like the M five twenties, which I recommend all the time, because it just bomb-proof add one of these nine grand power meters and be at $300 versus a thousand dollars and still have a lighter setup. [00:13:49] So I think that's something to consider. [00:13:52] Craig Dalton: [00:13:52] Yeah. Now that you're mentioning it, cause I, I thought, Oh, this would be really cool to be able to swap between the two, but you might as well at $300 price point. [00:14:00] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:14:00] Get one, one, three different bikes. You have a hundred dollars to buy yourself a nice meal. [00:14:05] Craig Dalton: [00:14:05] Exactly. Have you ever trained with power? [00:14:08] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:14:08] Oh yeah, I trained, I had the original wireless power tap with a, an old school Garmin edge, seven Oh five, which was like the big unit back in the day. Yeah. And it was it was pretty radical at the time. And I remember reading I think it's Andrew Cogans book training and racing with the power meter and then Joe Freels book the mountain bikers Bible or something along those lines for a title. [00:14:33] And it just I'd always trained with heart rate. And hardware gives you a lot of great information and you can correlate that with your perceived exertion and your cadence and so on and learn a lot. But adding power to the, I mean, power is just such an absolute metric. Like I weighed this much. [00:14:52] I can put out this much power for this much time. And how does that correlate to my heart rate? And how does that correlate to my cadence and how can I optimize those things in [00:15:00] my body, temperature manager and my fueling strategy and so on to get that power number. As high as possible, as long as possible. [00:15:07] Craig Dalton: [00:15:07] Yeah. I think that's what always interests me about it. There's a purity to a power number that you just can't get anywhere else. [00:15:15] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:15:15] Yeah. At the end of the day it's if you're in an event keeping all else equal, like power, is it though granted? One of the beautiful things about training with power is it kept me from over-training. [00:15:26] Right? So now you have all of these ways of looking at being in a certain zone for a certain amount of time based on your. Your threshold power and your max power and so on in this kind of a curve. And then you can see. And so, like I, I found when I first started training with power, that was over-training. [00:15:41] And so I backed off and focused on recovery more and did more intensity before major events and it actually made a huge difference. [00:15:50] Craig Dalton: [00:15:50] And were you using the power meter while you were racing off [00:15:53] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:15:53] road? No. Back then power. The only. I think it was the SRM. And then there was, which was a crank based, very expensive, very accurate but very expensive. [00:16:01] And then there was the power tap, which was a hub based system. And so I had built up a set of wheel aluminum wheels, training wheels. It was back in the day when you had training wheels and race wheels. Now, everyone just has really nice wheels with disc brakes. Cause you don't really have to worry about wearing them out. [00:16:16] Peters work well in carbon wheels are relatively inexpensive now, but yeah, only on the road bike for training. And then I would just use heart rate and perceived exertion in my events. [00:16:26]Craig Dalton: [00:16:26] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you sort of see the road racing the road, racers, [00:16:30] looking down at their power meters and you understand, how scientific the coaching staff can be back in the cars because they know exactly what kind of power numbers these athletes can put out. [00:16:42] They're like, okay,  go ride the front. We'd add such and such Watts and keep it there because we know you're capable of doing that. And we know you can do that for 20 minutes. And at 20 minutes in one second, we're going to pop you off. We're going to slot the next athlete in there. [00:16:59] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:16:59] Makes me think back to the conversation. [00:17:01] I had a few weeks ago with Ted Kwong and he was talking about you have different racers and it's they're feeling good today. Well, you can actually verify that with a power number. Like what, how has somebody's training been? And, we now have things like 24 hour heart rate monitors. [00:17:15] So you can see how heart rate variability is a reflection of training recovery and all these things, and really make a science out of it to a much greater degree. It's pretty impressive. I still just like to go out and ride my bike. I actually have a power meter on my bike and I haven't charged it for awhile, but But, for training for events and so on, or just understanding how your body works and how it responds to stress. [00:17:38] It's [00:17:38] Craig Dalton: [00:17:38] it's really useful. Yeah. For me. Yeah. At most it would be a curiosity. I do think it, part of the thing that I love about gravel is I do feel like skill plays such an important role in your performance. Vis-a-vis other athletes at events, or even in group rides. Like I can't tell you how many more powerful riders I ride with. [00:17:58] That just don't have the technical [00:18:00] skills to navigate the terrain we have here in Marin County. [00:18:03]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:18:03] Yeah. One last thing that comes to mind on this topic is in terms of the benefits for say an experienced rider, who's not racing, which is where I put myself versus a obviously a racer. This would benefit there. [00:18:15]But then the other end, somebody who's relatively new. Who has the budget power meter together with a heart rate monitor really helps you to understand how hard to go. And so, as an example, imagine going up a 20 minute climb. And at the beginning of the climb, you're relatively fresh and you go a little bit harder. [00:18:32] And by the end of the climb, you're really, suffering quite a bit and maybe your power is way off. And had you just backed off at the beginning and spread out your effort more over the course of the ride, you would end up with a much better overall time up the Hill and end up feeling better. [00:18:47] But that's something that has to be learned through experience. [00:18:50] Craig Dalton: [00:18:50] Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think every new cyclist has, is going to go through that climb where they absolutely blow up a quarter of the way up and realize they went out way too hard. And yeah, maybe having that power data helps you understand that in advance and you don't make this rookie [00:19:05] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:19:05] mistakes. [00:19:07] Yeah. Disciplined really disciplined and understanding your own physiological response to stress. [00:19:13] Craig Dalton: [00:19:13] Yeah, exactly. So I've had a buddy come to town who only has a road bike. So I've been out on the roads and I've been sort of surprisingly happy with the riding I've been doing when he originally came down and he was like wanting to ride. [00:19:28] I was frustrated [00:19:30] thinking I'm not riding off road. I'm all about the gravel riding, but it has been nice getting back on the road and sort of feeling that efficiency of riding on the road. And it's opened me up a little bit to, maybe I should spice it up a little bit more because oftentimes I feel like. [00:19:47] I'm overly abusive on my body with all the off-road riding idea and a little like phone and get in road riding would do me. Good. [00:19:55] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:19:55] Yeah. You do you still have a dedicated road bike? [00:19:59] Craig Dalton: [00:19:59] I don't. I don't. And the reason I bring it up is twofold. One. I sort of have been road riding with a little bit of chagrin being the gravel cycling guy and going out on the road. [00:20:08] It's just giving me a laugh, but I also, this week caught wind of envies new road plus bike. Envy as some of you may know, as a component manufacturer and a tube manufacturer, they've been great supportive company to the gravel cycling scene via their wheels and some great handlebars to push the limits back in the day, but they've come out of their Ogden Utah factory with this new custom road plus bike that accepts I think about to a 35 C tire, but it's pretty fascinating that. [00:20:42] An Ogden Utah based company is now offering a full custom frame set. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on it. [00:20:50] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:20:50] Yeah. This thing. So my initial impression was, Oh, here we go, another really expensive bike and it's got a seat mast and so on. Not that interesting, but when I dove [00:21:00] into it, it's custom geometry. [00:21:02] And so they had to develop a different manufacturing process to accomplish that because usually in a mass produced carbon bike, like our bikes, our frames you would essentially do usually the front triangle in one mold and you'd have five sizes of that mold. And then you do the rear triangle in another mold, and you may have, anywhere from one to three different rear triangles for that to correspond with the different sizes. [00:21:27] And that's it. And they were allowing, it seems that they're allowing more or less full customization of all the two blanks. And that's that's really hard to do. This is not a mass production process. And so it makes sense why it costs what it does and even the seat mast, which I'm not a huge fan of because it makes it so that a bike has very limited adjustability. [00:21:47] Well, already this bike is being very highly tailored for a very specific rider. And so in that sort of scenario, a seat mass does offer some very subtle advantages potentially in terms of weight in terms of being able to tune the frame. Just so, it's not a decision that I would make, but I can see why it's done here. [00:22:07] Craig Dalton: [00:22:07] Yeah. Interesting. Oftentimes we've talked in the past about custom steel builders and that experience when you have the wherewithal to get accustomed bike, it's just a beautiful process. To work with a builder and have it totally customized to you. And to your point, to be able to do that out of carbon is a pretty special experience. [00:22:29] I'm [00:22:30] excited for the team at envy to have cracked whatever code and put that out there to the cycling community. I'm [00:22:37] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:22:37] actually very, I would be very curious. They probably won't let me in because I work in the space, but I'd be very curious to see how they're doing the customization. So I'm Craig Calfee is as a friend and I've been down to his workshop down in Santa Cruz. [00:22:52] And at one time well, I assume he's still doing it this way. He was 3d printing, molds, custom molds for lugs, and then the L and then he would use a carbon tube to lug sort of construction. Which is an older style, which used to see on, steel brace frames and so on, but it allowed him to do a custom carbon setup. [00:23:11] And in this case it doesn't seem to be, there doesn't seem to be lugs. I'm not quite sure how they're joining the frame joining the tubes. There's no weight figures on here. So I can't even really guess, like if it was on the heavier side, I would think there was probably lugs cause there'd be more overlap and more material. [00:23:25] So I'd be very curious to see how they're pulling that off. And if they're even doing things with say custom tube, stiffnesses. For different riders have different weights to get the tuning characteristics you want either, something as a little bit more flexible for a lighter rider or an off-road or a rough road rider versus something stiffer for someone who's bigger, more powerful and, or riding more on smooth roads. [00:23:48] So quite curious here. [00:23:50] Craig Dalton: [00:23:50] Yeah, it's curious, it sort of reminds me of that Australian company bastion cycles who was doing. Extensive amounts of 3d printed [00:24:00] titanium. So they were 3d printing the whole bottom bracket shell, the head tubes, so they could get the angles as well as the other bits and bobs around the bike. [00:24:11] And then they were using carbon tubes to bring it all together. Is it possible that envy is actually printing the mold shape custom for the individual and then, doing the process from there. That's I'm wondering if like mold technology has evolved in such a way that, that, that becomes possible. [00:24:31] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:24:31] I haven't seen anything like that. I could speculate on some possibilities just for fun and see if we if we get it right. But I mean, the way that it's usually done. So it used to be you lay, put the layup on you have a two-piece mold. You lay the carbon in the mold all around, according to a certain schedule, a typical frame might have, a couple hundred plies or potentially more to tune the flex characteristics and so on. [00:24:55] Just so in stiffness to do custom, I mean, you could do tube to lug if you want. Oh. And then you would put a bladder in, or now the, they use a a foam. And in fact, it's a combination process where it's a foam that is dipped in latex and in that latex creates a bladder. So now you get the best of both being able to force air into a bladder to really push out all, any sort of voids, but then also the foam is expanding too. [00:25:23] So, the mass production technique is really advanced. Now [00:25:26]Craig Dalton: [00:25:26] Is that inflation is that to basically push [00:25:30] the. Carbon fiber applies to the outside of the mole, then create whatever the ultimate frame tube shape is going to be. [00:25:37] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:25:37] Okay. Yeah. It's the, compactified those carbon layers. So all those layers get pushed right up against the inner surface of the outside of the Mo. [00:25:45]What's the way to explain this this, the outer surface on the inside of the mold, just getting pushed up against there and to the extent that you can. Have more pressure pushing that as it's being cured. You're essentially getting rid of a lot of the voids that are in that material. [00:26:00] Inevitably, you're still going to have some voids to the extent that you can minimize them and keep them small as well it just makes for a stronger, more consistent frame set [00:26:10] Craig Dalton: [00:26:10] and talking to you previously. I mean, it's the mold, as you're designing a bike, the mold is a great expense. [00:26:16] Obviously you've got to engineer what that looks like. But then minting that mold is a big step in the process, correct? [00:26:23] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:26:23] Yeah. So doing it in granted, things might be getting more expensive. Now, a supply chains, as we've talked about on the pod before are mess right now and the, even the frame vendors are seeing, Much higher than usual demand, which means that they're probably charging more for molds. [00:26:40] But last I checked from a tier one high volume vendor, a set of five molds would run say 50 or $60,000. And you might spend another say 30 to $50,000 for the molds for the the the foam that goes inside. Okay, so you have this [00:27:00] expanded polystyrene. And so that expanded polystyrene that you're putting in the mold to expand outward and push the carbon applies up against the inside of the steel mold that needs a tool as well. [00:27:13] And that tool can usually be a bit made out of something like aluminum. That's cheaper as opposed to steel, which is more durable, but much harder to machine. But nonetheless you can easily on a standard say like gravel frame set. Be investing anywhere from 50 to a hundred thousand dollars or even more, if you have, tighter size runs, maybe six, seven, eight sizes in order to launch a new model, [00:27:35] Craig Dalton: [00:27:35] Right. And then your to tune sort of how you want the bike to perform within that. There's different grades of carbon fiber that you can use and obviously different numbers of layers that you can put on any given part. [00:27:50] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:27:50] Correct. And of course, tube shapes are that kind of stuff, starting point. [00:27:54] So a bigger tube is if you have a round tube and you make it bigger, it's stiffness is going to go up exponentially relative to the increase in the diameter of the tube. And so working with tube shapes first. And then from there you can tune flex characteristics, but that mix of tube shapes, and then you can adjust further with the layup schedule the particular modulates of the carbon. [00:28:17] And you might also want to consider, say using high modulus carbon in a place that requires a lot of stiffness that doesn't have a lot of risk of impact, but then you want lower modulates carbon say on a down tube. [00:28:30] Where you could have rocks kicked up and so on. So there's a lot of considerations in optimizing this complex set of compromises in order to get an optimized structure for whatever you're going for as a product manager or an engineer, which I am not to, by the way. [00:28:44] Actually, I should just make clear, like I'm a, I am a physics nerd who spends a lot of time in factories. Who's picked up a lot from engineers, both state side and in China. But there are people who know this stuff far better than I do. Yeah. [00:28:58] Craig Dalton: [00:28:58] Presumably the team at envy, going back to their nice bike. [00:29:01] Exactly. They've got a lot of smart people over in Ogden. Utah are working on this needless to say, I mean, it's not specifically. Or non-specifically a gravel bike. It's really our road plus bike, but I encourage you and I'll put a link in the show notes for people to take a look at it because I can give them one thing for certain they've produced a beautiful looking machine that people need to put some eyes on. [00:29:27] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:29:27] Indeed. Indeed. [00:29:28] Craig Dalton: [00:29:28] Yeah. I appreciate you nerding out with me a little bit. I always learn things from our conversations. I hope the listener. Is happy to go down the rabbit hole. I've I find it fascinating just how much can go into carbon bicycles. It's just much more than meets the eye. You think, Oh, you just slap in some tubes together and that's that, but there's so much nuance from, as you describe the layup process, the shape of the tube, et cetera, that goes into producing a great riding bike. [00:29:58] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:29:58] Yeah. And before we hop [00:30:00] off, actually, there's one, one other topic I wanted to bring up, which is a, B I did my first episode recording in which you graciously provided the platform for. And we got some feedback and we got a lot of good feedback and pretty overwhelmingly positive, but there was one bit of feedback that I thought was really useful and it made me think and that was from a listener. [00:30:20] Who mentioned that we were talking about because we weren't making a living as a, as professional cyclists, we weren't technical technically professionals. And we said that kind of off the cuff and self-deprecating Lee, but she made the point that I thought it was a very valid point that by that standard, a lot of women racers wouldn't be professional. [00:30:40] And that was by no mean, the intention of that statement. And I can see why the distinction there. This word professional has a particular meaning and it's really about the level of achievement as opposed to making a living at it. And so I wanted to call that out and just acknowledge that was an area where I learned something from a listener. [00:30:59] Craig Dalton: [00:30:59] Yeah. That's awesome. No, I appreciate that. Yeah it's hard to sort of. Talk about the disparity in wages, in professional cycling between men and women, and a lot of strides have been made, but absolutely there's a lot of men and women who are out there acting as professionals, being professional cyclists that aren't earning the living that they deserve to make. [00:31:23] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:31:23] Yeah. Yeah. And maybe didn't, I should give ourselves a little bit more credit too for having a. Accomplish what we did, even if we weren't, [00:31:30] front of the pack making, making our living at it was definitely a great experience. So please keep the feedback coming. We'll be doing a couple more of these episodes in the upcoming weeks. [00:31:39] Craig Dalton: [00:31:39] Yeah, that was awesome. And we got a lot of great feedback in the ridership forum. If you're not there already. And you have comments about this envy bicycle or power meter training. Definitely go over to the ridership.com. Get your invite and jump in. We'd love to hear from you and get that feedback. [00:31:56] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:31:56] Yeah, and even more so with the ridership now that vaccine genes are being widely distributed. [00:32:03]We can start thinking about really facilitating the sort of in-person interactions amongst listeners and in books, amongst members of that community that we've been wanting to with that platform all along. And that's something that excites me immensely, especially as I prepare to go back to the Bay and then go back to Boston where. [00:32:20] I have a lot of old friends who I haven't written with in years, not to mention a lot of people in the forum who I'll get an opportunity to meet and explore their local trails. [00:32:28] Craig Dalton: [00:32:28] Yeah. It's been great to see people sharing the roots, which I've been putting in our ride with GPS club. And as you and I have said all along, our hope is to build something. [00:32:39] That really facilitates real-world interactions. We're not trying to suck people into some digital void where we advertising. We want you to get out there and ride, and we want you to discover new places, meet new people and let's get out there and have some fun when it's safe. [00:32:57] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:32:57] Yeah, absolutely. [00:32:59] Craig Dalton: [00:32:59] Cool. Well, thanks [00:33:00] for the time this week, my friend. [00:33:01] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:33:01] Yeah, always a pleasure chatting with you, Greg. I'll talk to you soon. [00:33:05] Take care. [00:33:06]Craig Dalton: [00:33:06] Okay. So that's it for this week's episode of, in the dirt, from the gravel ride podcast. I appreciate you spending a little time with us this week. If you're not already a subscriber, please go ahead and hit that subscribe button. That's hugely indicated of how we're doing at the gravel ride. It means a lot to me. If you're interested in financially supporting the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. [00:33:31]Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels  

Rafe Williams joins Tina Dybal on the podecast this week! They get deep and intellectual, per usual. As many of you know, Rafe is Tina's partner.  He is a stand-up comedian, writer, actor and improviser. You can listen to his debut stand-up album, "Young Grandpa" pretty much anywhere! Follow him on instagram at @iamrafewilliams XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

This week's episode gets us some new clips for the soundboard. As we all know, the soundboard is very important.  ENJOY!!!!! Libbie and Tina will be in Phoenix opening up for Chelcie Lynn next week, if you're coming...can't wait to see you! Be on the lookout for more tour dates with Chelcie Lynn & Libbie Higgins! If you want extra Slop content, such as food reviews and art reviews.....become a Patron! www.patreon.com/slopcity XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room

This week's episode uses and solidifies a three (3) pronged approach that humans can apply to all areas of their lives! ***Also, we have extra content up on the Patreon! We are doing food reviews/art reviews and putting all extra content on the Patreon! WEEKLY CONTENT Become a Patron if you want access to these goodies.  www.patreon.com/slopcity XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

For this episode, we ate so much before and honestly barely remember what was said. Enjoy. We love you Libbie is going on tour with Trailer Trash Tammy this year! Lots of dates all over the US! Visit their instagrams for the dates, they were just announced yesterday. Download the Trailer Trash Tammy App so that you can get early access to tickets!!!! XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room

On this week’s podcast, we kick off a series of conversations about the meanings and motivations that underlie why we ride. Our first guest is two-time Olympian (wind surfing), former Pro cyclist, Pro team founder, Sport Psychologist, friend, and Ridership member Ted Huang. Together Ted and I explored collaborative vs. coercive team dynamics, the power of vulnerability in leadership, intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation, perfectionism and the inner critic, flow states, mindfulness, inclusion and belonging, and other aspects of the riding experience that extend and indeed originate well beyond the bike. The goal of these episodes is to spark conversation that is of value to the community and its members, and we hope you’ll join us over at the The Ridership forum (sign up at www.theridership.com) with your ideas, questions, and feedback. Ted Huang Website  Ted Huang Instagram Support the Podcast Join The Ridership Ted Huang - Episode Transcription  [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm Randall Jacobs, and this is the first in a series of episodes that Craig has graciously invited me to host in which i'll be bringing on guests to unpack the meaning and motivations that underlie why we ride. [00:00:12]Like Craig's episodes and our joint In The Dirt series, these episodes will simply appear in your feed as they're produced. [00:00:18] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:00:18] Before we get started. I'd just like to encourage anyone who enjoys the podcast to support Craig in his work by going to buymeacoffee.com/thegravelride and making a donation. [00:00:28]My first guest is Ted Huang.  Ted is a two time Olympian in the sport of wind surfing, a former cat one road racer who competed in professional races here in the U S,  a co- founder of two professional teams, one men's and one women's, and finally he is a sports psychologist who helps elite and amateur athletes alike achieve both their performance goals and a more balanced life through cycling. And with that, let's get started. [00:00:53] Ted Huang, welcome to the podcast. So glad to have you on.  [00:00:57] Ted Huang: [00:00:57] Thank you.  [00:00:58]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:00:58] So this is the first [00:01:00] in a series of conversations here on the pod, talking about this concept of ridership. This concept is pretty broad in the sense, you and I have discussed before around, fellowship and friendship and the bicycle is a vehicle for connection and what does this experience mean in a deeper sense? So I'm really excited to explore this with you. If you could give the audience a quick sense of your background, where you come from and what you do now?  [00:01:23]Ted Huang: [00:01:23] I was born in the Bay area, Sunnyvale native, and I wasn't really into team sports so much when I was younger, I had a couple of bad experiences and ended up falling into the sport called windsurfing some of you may have heard of, it's basically a surfboard with the sales stuck on top that you hang on to and then go cruise to different places. So it's really the ultimate exploration machine on the water. [00:01:49] And I did that starting the age of 11. Very supportive parents started competing, ended up going to two Olympics in wind surfing and then [00:02:00] also loved the sport of cycling and actually went into road racing.  I wanted to see how far I could take that sport just for fun cause I wanted to try something more aerobicly challenging and little did I know road cycling actually was much more of a team sport and help me develop my sense of belonging to something. So I was part of a team really took to the teammates, actually co-founded two professional cycling teams of men's and women's teams, and did that for a number of years. [00:02:33] And it just made me realize this whole power of many trumps the power of one in terms of satisfaction and reward. So that really helped me find my way to what I'm doing today, which is a mental performance coach. Went back, got my degree in sports psychology, and now trying to help people become the best versions of themselves, or be more comfortable in their own skins. [00:02:58]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:02:58] That resonates [00:03:00] granted I didn't go quite as far in my professional athletics career. I was a pack fodder pro cross country racer. [00:03:06]Ted Huang: [00:03:06] That's not what I hear, but yeah. [00:03:07]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:03:07] I was a decent local competitor at one point. [00:03:10]And at this point my relationship to the bike has shifted a lot and I really want to explore what is the deeper meaning of this experience? So you talked about connection, for example, and in fact, I recall very fondly being on a group ride and meeting you and we had a brief conversation and it was less the conversation itself than the feeling of here's somebody who's really kind who wants to include everyone in the ride experience .  So when we started this off, it was very natural to reach out. [00:03:35] Ted Huang: [00:03:35] Likewise, when I first met you, it was like this very positive and curious person who was so impassioned by not just cycling. Now it all seems aligned, that you wanted to share the same sense of community with your cycling experience to others, and maybe that's part of your thesis bikes vision is, creating that sense of community with other people.  [00:03:59] [00:04:00]To me it doesn't matter why we ride, how fast we ride, how slow we ride. It's just that we get out there. And that's the most important thing, because I don't know how many times people like, Oh, I don't want to ride with you. You're gonna be too fast or whatever. I'll be too slow . It doesn't really matter. Don't apologize for anything about your speed or your technique, because I'll be the first one to say, I suck at mountain biking, my technical skills are horrible. But I still enjoy it for the same reasons and you're right. It takes time and self-belief and confidence to get past that. I still have trouble, that lack of confidence and things you don't know how to do, but that's the whole neat thing about cycling is there's no shortage of people out there to help you who want to help you. And going back to community, that would probably be the common theme here is that helps build that sense because we all want each other to have fun. At least the riders I want to ride with are like that.  [00:04:52]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:04:52] Yeah, I definitely recall when I was racing particularly within the roadie scene to a lesser extent, the mountain bike scene have a [00:05:00] really strong competitive element. And there was almost on the one hand a masochistic need to suffer and a glorification of suffering. And I can suffer more than you and somehow that's a source of worth. [00:05:11] And then also I'm going to punish the other riders. I'm going to rip your legs off. I'm going to make your lungs burn and I think it feeds a baser instinct than the reasons I ride and the types of riders I'm attracted to now why they ride and the opportunity for riding and the bicycle itself to be a vehicle for connection . So I'm curious tell me about the transition for you from a wind surfing to riding on a team. What age? Was there a lot of overlap? Was the bike tool for training. [00:05:41]Ted Huang: [00:05:41] So my high school graduation present was a 1988 Bianchi Superleggera Columbus SLSB tubing, beautiful bike. I bought it from a ski shop and I loved riding it, but it was just a cross-training tool and I just [00:06:00] liked the aerobic nature kind of allowed me to get into that quote unquote zone more quickly than having to drive 45 minutes, unpack your wind surfer, build it up. So basically, it's just a much more efficient way to get that. So I really took to it, but transitioning from the wind surfing, it was just so gear oriented I would be going around the world, carrying the 12 and a half foot long Wind Surfer for, with the 16 and a half foot mast show up to every airline counter, and you think bicycles are hard to transport. I'm showing up there and I'm like, "Hey, my name's Ted. I'm part of this team would you mind the excess baggage fees?". It was like basically a panic attack before every trip, because Airline desk people would be shaking their heads as I'm walking to the desk with all this stuff, in luggage carts and it was just stressful. [00:06:48] So once I was done with my wind surfing career after the 2000 Olympics I was at the time cross training with cycling and taking a step back. I will say that in 2000 I [00:07:00] telecommuted, full-time from Sydney, Australia training for the Sydney Olympics and the only new friends I made were from the cycling and triathlon community that year. [00:07:11] Cause I was cross training in their local equivalent of central park, New York, but Centennial park in Sydney, and I did some of the group training rides and people were so nice. So that helped build my good vibe feeling towards cycling. So when I was done with the Sydney Olympics, I literally  stopped windsurfing, cold Turkey and  decided I would immerse myself in cycling. And there happened to be this bike race in San Francisco that went up the streets of San Francisco, the really hilly ones, and Lance Armstrong came and they had all the European teams came. So it was quite a big event. So that was my goal was to get in there, but. [00:07:48]But really the only way to get in there with it to somehow turn your team professional. So I think I joked with the earlier, my dream was to get the free bike. I had to start my own pro team to get the free bike, so the hard way [00:08:00] getting to that point. But in the process, I just became so fascinated with human behavior, so that was also my degree at Stanford in college, but just the human behavioral component and having all these just. So talented in the lab teammates who couldn't quite put it together on the race course, whereas you'd have other less talented, physiologically speaking, cyclists who were just spot on, they could just do what you told them to do very consistent. [00:08:32] And it was all in the attitude all in the mind. But with the team , you could leverage each other's strengths and weaknesses and actually build a better team. It almost didn't matter. It's almost like a puzzle. You could just put together the different pieces and if you lead them correctly, then you have a pretty successful team. [00:08:51]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:08:51] So what do you see as the critical elements of healthy team dynamics?  [00:08:55]Ted Huang: [00:08:55] I think leadership by example is extremely important. [00:09:00] I also think that the team leader needs to be very open and transparent with other teammates on his own strengths and weaknesses. [00:09:11]I really gained the most from the one year we had Chris Horner on our team and why he was such an effective leader is he would figure out all of our strengths and weaknesses and then he would maximize our strengths. So he'd be like, " Ted, you're not really a climber, so get me to the bottom of the Hill and you're done". So he would set these little milestones for me that were very incremental or for teammates. So what was incredibly special is, he harnessed our strengths and made us feel good about them and let us essentially celebrate them without tearing us down, he wouldn't tell us, "just keep pulling at the front". He would give us very specific instructions. We want to keep the break at 30 seconds. Don't pull too hard. He was very specific. And because he gave these incremental milestones to each of us, it empowered us to really step up in that [00:10:00] to me was important. And also our team director for the women, Karen Brehms, she treated everyone with respect and everyone fairly and the same.  [00:10:08]Granted, I was the quote unquote team owner dating one of the women on the team. So I got extra " don't mess with my team dynamic" direction from Karen. It was very clear she wanted to preserve a team that felt equitable amongst its ranks. So there was really almost no room for backroom talk or talking behind people's backs. [00:10:30] Everything was open. And I don't know how many of the women came back and told Karen that was the best team experience they've ever had because of the team dynamic she helped create. So those are parts of what I think are important to creating a successful team environment, but also doing what you say you're going to do for the management level to we paid our riders on time. [00:10:50] We had the pro-team, we were. Oh, it's try to be very organized. And what was really interesting was when the year we had Chris Horner, we had a first time director, [00:11:00] super smart guy, but never directed a team before. So he just let Chris essentially handle the rains and you just help facilitate. [00:11:07] So knowing your strengths and your weaknesses and being willing to learn is also another important component of a team dynamic that will create a successful path. And also specific goals. Of course we can't underestimate the power of goal setting and the aspirational goal. [00:11:25] Our goal as the men's team was " we want to see if we can win the San Francisco grand Prix, our budget was missing two zeros compared to every other team and they're race so it was like, How is this going to work, but we just plugged away at it and we acted as professionally as we could. [00:11:42]We had team selections for the race . And Chris Horner on the day asked Charles Dion, how are you feeling? I was pretty sure Chris could have won the race, but Charles who'd won the first edition of the race in 2001 said, "I'm feeling really good". So Chris is okay, I'm writing for you. [00:11:58] So literally [00:12:00] this being so clear in factual and then Charles, knowing he has someone like Chris riding for him stepped up as well as us as the working stiff team stepped up too. And we're able to fill in the gaps.  [00:12:14]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:12:14] I'm hearing themes that I find common in any sort of healthy community or even friendship, dynamic ones of  an ability to acknowledge one's limitations, but also one's strengths and the strengths and limitations of those around you and discuss it in a very open and vulnerable way. [00:12:29]I'm going to follow up on the things that I said I'll do and this reframing of leadership, I think that in our culture, a common sense of leadership is the person being in charge. [00:12:40] And that is a coercive form of leadership. That's something taken versus a leadership that is given due to the merits. We all lead in different ways in a healthy team. How talk to me more about like your experience within the team dynamic and how that evolved over time, what you learned. [00:12:57]Ted Huang: [00:12:57] So what's interesting to me. I want to go back actually [00:13:00] really quickly, the first comment about the roadie- type competitive attitude. So I came into cycling is just like a new hobby. I had no intention of really being that serious. My goal is to become a Cat 1 and I did that. So I didn't really have another goal after that , I never had a five-year plan, so that's maybe a problem, but also helped shape who I am today. So I just fell into things [00:13:25] an accidental pro?  [00:13:27] Yeah, totally. Because I never was paid to ride a bike, so I'm not really professional. I feel if you make your livelihood, riding a bike, then you're professional, but I never did that. I ran a team it was back in the day when you had to be a cat 1 to get the pro license. [00:13:43] So at least it was legitimate in terms of that was the path. But after that you could be cat five and just buy the pro-license, but I digress. So I had more perspective coming from a different sport and I was just amazed at how competitive people would [00:14:00] get, and it almost took the fun out of it. [00:14:03]They were so aggro and so intense. That's the problem we have is our identities, whether it's in a recreational cyclist or competitive cyclist, that can be wrapped up in how you do on the bike, whether it's in a competition or not. So I was just amazed at that intensity. [00:14:20]And I reframe the situation and tried to just be more light-hearted about it. But. What helps diffuse that is when you have a leader come in, who's , like you said, vulnerable and open and able to take criticism and doesn't necessarily say he has all the answers. He has his opinions or her opinions, but they're just speaking from the heart. [00:14:46] And that to me really resonated in a way to help wade through all the personality, differences and ego differences and helps diffuse those issues. But I want go back to that whole [00:15:00] concept of effective leadership in a very uncertain environment. [00:15:06]When you have lots of uncertainty in the race dynamics, you have to figure out the controllables.  So a effective team leader focuses on those controllables to help empower his or her teammates to feel like they have control of those things, opposed to feeling overwhelmed. [00:15:25] So my wife's leadership skills , she was a team leader of the Webcore women's professional team, you have to be empowering of your teammates. You had to be an example, essentially a role model. And then you had to show that you really cared about your teammates too. In an authentic way. Not just use them and abuse them and spin off the back , because they're going to be there for you day after day. As a leader, you want to make your teammates want to ride for you in a way that's not putting too much pressure on the teammates. It's almost like you give no room [00:16:00] for pressure to build up. [00:16:01] This is the job we have in front of us. And if you  set these incremental goals that I'll help you set for yourself Ted pulled to this juncture in the race, or, okay. Is a climber. We're saving you for the climb to help me on the climb or you need to get me within 30 seconds of the break up the road and I'll do the rest. [00:16:18] Just very clear steps then suddenly it opens up what's possible versus all the things conspiring against you.  [00:16:25]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:16:25] You bring up a bunch of themes that I think are great to explore as a way of contrasting different modalities in which some definition of success can be achieved. Cause you hear about teams that have a power or fear based structure and they may be quite successful in some sense. Though, you don't have to question "what are we ultimately hoping to achieve and why is that our motivation?"  The contrast between a power- based team dynamic and an empowerment based team dynamic is something that I'm hearing as you're expressing how you went [00:17:00] about things. Why do you think more power and coercion based dynamics also have some success and how do you contrast the two modalities? [00:17:10]Ted Huang: [00:17:10] I think that's a very interesting question. The minute you said power-based Philosophy for leading a team I thought, at the time when we had our team, the health net team, at least my impression of them, was a very, ego driven, we're doing it this way, and it's all business, and it was unclear to me how much fun they were having, was like, "we have a job to do". But  it works when you have extremely dominant personalities that essentially are leading by example and give riders no room to think otherwise. And in my opinion, it's not as sustainable model. [00:17:51] It works for specific goals. But you also have to have a pretty hardened personality. I don't want to say [00:18:00] that we were all soft, but we definitely were more sensitive than your quote unquote real professional riders that were actually on the circuit full-time and that was their livelihood. When you have less alternatives, you can take that type of Leadership style. I don't think you necessarily have to like it, but there's different ways that work.  [00:18:21] And also, let's say the domestics or the other riders see that they care actually about you or care about the success of the team, that can feed on itself.  I work with kids and their high school coaches, right now it's all about positive psychology and positive reinforcement, which I totally agree with. I think that's the best way to coach kids. But there are still what I call it old-school coaches out there that they're just the hard drivers. They yell at their kids , but they yell at them equally, meaning, they'll tell them to harden the F up and all this stuff. And a lot of the parents seem completely on board with that because [00:19:00] they recognize that these coaches are putting their heart and soul into it. So they are so invested in it that they think they have the best interest of the kids at heart. That makes sense.  [00:19:10] So it helps them not justify the behavior, but if it were coached that seemed like they were just malicious, then that would be a difference. So I think that makes a difference. It is building community, even that type of environment can build a community, Different types of community, I would say less healthy, less sustainable. [00:19:32] If these leaders are showing that they care about the program, care about the writers so that, they're really  trying to achieve the goals are their core values .   [00:19:41]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:19:41] Craig and I talked in our last podcast together about our own motivations for getting into the sport and I can  identify. [00:19:49]Some unhealthy egoic motivations for me wanting to check the box of having had a pro license. I was never making a living at it, and so by your definition, which I fully [00:20:00] agree with, I was not a professional. I was just good enough to ride with the pros and to see how much stronger they were. [00:20:06]And to be able to sit with that. But I feel if even if the goal of winning the race is achieved what is the ultimate motivation behind that. So getting back to identity, at the time, I had several things that were propping up in identity. I had just gotten my pro license. I had won a couple races. I was going to a fancy grad school. And, I had other aspects that were like, "this is why I am valuable".  I think that speaks to a much deeper conversation about how we're raised, how our culture treats us to get our worth externally. [00:20:40]And with the lens that I have now, when I think about team dynamics that are more power-based and more egoic, there would seem to be some underlying wound you're trying to heal by doing the things that get you the external validation that you're not able to generate internally because you maybe didn't get it in childhood from your primary [00:21:00] caregiver. No fault of bears because they're the children of parents as well. So I'm curious to tug at the loose thread of this sweater and see what we dig up.  [00:21:09]Ted Huang: [00:21:09] So in sports psychology, or just psychology in general, you have the extrinsically motivated athlete or the intrinsically motivated athlete, and studies have shown that if your motivation comes from within, like self-improvement, "how far can I take this sport?", "how much can I improve?", That's healthier in the long run, whereas external motivators, like "I want to win this race" there's a lot of variables that you can't control, a lot of uncontrollables, or "I want to beat this person", which is an external motivator, that's also helpful for those little carrots that need along the way,  you need both, and most top athletes have both, but in the end it's better to be leaning toward the more internally motivated or intrinsically motivated person. [00:21:53] So I have what I call that chip on the shoulder motivation, which is external experiences, motivations that a lot of [00:22:00] athletes who maybe feel either disadvantaged or didn't have everything line up for them may have a chip on their shoulder. Maybe it's the press harshing on them for some reason. [00:22:11] And then any chip on the shoulder can really help drive an athlete big time. If you're spending a lot of your time or the majority of your time doing something it's logical, that your identity would be wrapped up in that.  And you're getting rewarded with little endorphin and dopamine hits whenever you do well. That just makes you feel better. So it just feels itself and it's a vicious cycle. And then of course, when it's time to retire, it's like the rug got yanked out from under you then what do you do?  [00:22:43]Quick aside.  My wife had her medical career. She was working full time when she was training for the Olympics. [00:22:48] So she always had her medical career, so she had no problem transitioning after she did her Olympic thing. It was like, boom. That's not what defines me, it's a medical thing. And that was, I think, [00:23:00] instrumental in her just being able to pivot just like that. I had problems switching, even though I was not quite as full time as some athletes, but my identity was wrapped up in the sport even became wrapped up in the cycling. And to some degree, it still is in terms of, this vicious cycle. "I want to stay fit to prove myself", but for what? Like we talked about, you have a goal, you accomplish the goal, and then what?  [00:23:25] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:23:25] The dog that caught the car. [00:23:27] Ted Huang: [00:23:27] And then what? So I had a German training partner in windsurfing in '96, and he was  significantly better than I was. He was European champion. He wanted to win the Olympics 96. He didn't. He was so driven, and we were training partners, and we were one place apart at the Olympics, and he was just crushed. [00:23:47] But then he talked to me afterwards and told me, Ted, I can't believe it. You are so right. I didn't enjoy the process enough. I was so fixated on this goal. That I could have [00:24:00] enjoyed the path so much more. Instead, I was just fixated on the result. And now that period of life is behind me. And now I got to go to work and I'm leading a mundane life now, and my glory days were behind me, opposed to  soaking up every bit of each day along the way. And that really resonated with me in that. Wow. He finally gained perspective that it's not all about the Holy grail of the wet metal, that the media only focuses on the podium finishers at the Olympics. [00:24:28] And it really is about the experience. And then interestingly my wife at the Olympics, you get postcards from the local kids at the different Olympics. Like they write a little postcard and she had a patient come in and read one of the postcards. And it was France, it was a French kid who wrote it and the translation said "the best among us", the English translation of this French phrases. And she said that's odd. That's not the real translation. The translation is "the [00:25:00] best within us".  So that's like huge difference. So the English translation of one of the Olympic mottoes is twisted. [00:25:10]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:25:10] It's very American.  [00:25:12]Ted Huang: [00:25:12] Exactly. Opposed to the best within us. And so that really struck a chord because it's exactly how we're brought up thinking of Olympians, is it's all about beating them. [00:25:22]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:25:22] There's a better than worse than . [00:25:24] Ted Huang: [00:25:24] Yeah. opposed to striving to be the best that you can be. [00:25:27] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:25:27] That really captures the difference between a healthy and an unhealthy relationship to the sport. Are you doing it to be the best amongst us? Are you doing it to be the best version of yourself as part of a broader program of being a complete person? [00:25:42] [00:25:42] Ted Huang: [00:25:42] Yeah. And tying this back to the leadership component, that's what good leaders do. They don't make you feel bad because you didn't perform up to the par of your teammate who might be more physiologically, talented on that day . It was like, you got the best out of yourself. [00:25:58] So these leaders, [00:26:00] whether it would be Christine or Chris, would compliment you on how well you did among your own strength. Like you did the best you could that's good enough, as opposed to comparing you to a teammate or to another team. And then another small thing I want to share as an interesting tip is we talk about perfectionism, right? [00:26:18] And perfectionistic tendencies are unhealthy. Would you agree with that?  [00:26:23]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:26:23] I think they tie into broader issues of low self-esteem. So you have to a project some perfect version of yourself, and it keeps us from getting started. [00:26:33] Ted Huang: [00:26:33] At it does, it's fear of failure. You don't want to. Fail at something perhaps too.  [00:26:37]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:26:37] I can say that this is the first episode of this series for the podcast that I'm doing. And I've sat on this idea for quite some time. And it was my perfectionist tendencies and lack of a feeling of security, a feeling that I could pull it off, that put off this thing that I needed to do for so long. So I can see that reflected in any number of different situations in my life. And as I observe other people with this lens, so [00:27:00] let's absolutely continue exploring this. [00:27:03] Ted Huang: [00:27:03] Yeah. I love that you share that quote unquote vulnerability, because that's like to me. So cool that you recognize that and you just chose to go forward and do it. And I'm actually honored that you picked me as your first interviewee or your conversational partner in this. [00:27:22]I'm hoping our conversation will inspire and allow people to introspective and more reflect on why we ride our bikes and what it can do for us versus having too many extrinsic perfectionistic parts that we tend towards. [00:27:36]So we're going to pull on that thread a little bit more on the perfectionism piece. I recognize I'm in that boat with you where I'm always looking for external reinforcement.  [00:27:45] Affirmation essentially. [00:27:47]Affirmation. I get down on myself when I don't perform. Like I think I should. And so sometimes I have trouble moving past mistakes. And I remember asking my wife, Christine, " are you a perfectionist?" And [00:28:00] she said quite emphatically, "no, I'm not a perfectionist" because what I recognize is I'll make mistakes, but then I know they're just mistakes. [00:28:09] I'll just learn from them and just move on. How do you do that?  [00:28:11]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:28:11] Again, from this lens I've gained from doing a lot of difficult introspection, especially in recent months, I see that in our culture, vulnerability is not a norm. And part of vulnerability is an acceptance of one's own limitations and a feeling of being worthy of acceptance from other as one actually is as opposed to some idealized self that you project out. [00:28:35]Social media is in a way like a crescendo of this narcissistic tendency to want to project some idealized self, and then our relationships are built on this projection versus who we really are. And I find that vulnerability is not weakness. It is a superpower because now you have resilient friendships and relationships, and you talked about team dynamics, same sort of thing. [00:29:01] [00:29:00] Ted Huang: [00:29:01] Yeah, that term projection. When working with kids, that's a huge issue even if it's only implicitly part of the culture in kid's sports, or kids academics , you're always supposed to be striving for more and we don't emphasize celebrating the small victories along the way. So I think in some sense, I don't want to say there's a cure for perfectionism, but if you allow yourself to celebrate the smaller wins along the way, you're not settling for less. [00:29:35] Which a lot of the kids I talk to I can sense. What they're feeling is that they, celebrate too much. Maybe their parents will say, Oh, you still haven't hit your goal yet, but that's going to help them have a healthier attitude towards what they've accomplished. Because I think at least in the Bay area, I can only speak for the Bay area having grown up here, there is this underlying permeating [00:30:00] pressure cooker environment amongst kids and adults to strive, because, you're seeing thousands of Teslas driving around you and you start judging other people attitudes, their, life livelihood, et cetera. [00:30:15] And that I think is also unhealthy. And I think that's also feeding on this very oppressive atmosphere that I think is the unhealthy part of Silicon Valley . And if we can keep ourselves more curious and open-minded whether it's through mindfulness or meditation or healthy community I think we can tame those perfectionistic tendencies, but we have so many things conspiring against that healthy outlook. I think you and I both know that's one of the things we're trying to grapple with is can cycling, how does that help, steer us into more healthy life balance or [00:31:00] mental balance.  [00:31:01] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:31:01] It very much ties into the motivation for starting this series. What is a life well lived? What is the deeper or meaning and purpose? What is it that this particular activity serves?  [00:31:11]For me, the bike was my on ramp to mindfulness and meditation. I didn't know it at the time. At the time  I started riding, it was  "here's something that I'm good at". I had certain advantages in terms of my physiology. And I get rewarded  cause I'm good at it. [00:31:27] So it was chasing that. And I was on a cycling team at Northeastern. And it was, the seeking of belonging.  If I look back and think about my motivation, it wasn't to win races or even the right experience itself. It was that feeling of belonging. That was the motivation. And now, recognizing that I don't really have any desire to compete. [00:31:48] In fact, my desire for fitness is  dictated by  wanting to be able to have the experiences I want to have with the people I want to have them with. And that is my motivation.  [00:31:57] Ted Huang: [00:31:57] I feel the same way. my only [00:32:00] goal was to become a cat one way back in the early nineties and happened a long time ago , and then it just became that sense of belonging and being, what the team goal, right? [00:32:10]The personal goals are mixed in there as well, but it was that sense of belonging. And that's why I so gravitated and towards cycling and cut the windsurfing cold Turkey. Cause, to me that was a bit of a more individual loner sport because you can't really socialize when you're going like 30 miles an hour on the water. [00:32:26]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:32:26] Have you gone back to it at all? Do you still wind surf?  [00:32:29]Ted Huang: [00:32:29] Very occasionally I'll just see a board or there's like a little race somewhere in Tahoe and I'll jump in and be sore for the next week. Cause I, have muscle memory, but then I have no muscles, so I can fake it for a little bit, but No.  [00:32:43] I also like doing things with my wife, so I  want to mention briefly we haven't written our tandem in months until yesterday. And it was an incredibly spectacular day. And there was this whole just when you're in sync, can we talk, I can talk about the zone with you and just [00:33:00] where it's, we weren't like this the whole time but it helped me become more intentional in how I pedaled the bike even cause you're, so you're connected right. [00:33:08] With the with your front and Stoker and the captain, you're connected through the belt. And when everything's in sync, there's nothing like that. We talked about belonging, it just felt more connected with the other individual in more ways than one, when you're in sync and the peddling styles, Similar. It just, it was just in the beautiful scenery that, to me, it was like not in the Piff money, but it was just one of those moments where it's wow, this is what cycling is all about, where you're just cruising. And we both like speed. And so it's, in tandem you got 300 pounds, it was just amazing to feel that and it was like our own little community. [00:33:46] And so we didn't really need anyone else around us, but just the two of us.   [00:33:51] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:33:51] It sounds very intimate, like a feeling of completeness in the moment fully present flow state  [00:33:56]Ted Huang: [00:33:56] Yeah, it was, and I think that's [00:34:00] also the feeling I get with some of these group rides where we're all on the same wavelength clicking. [00:34:05]And that's what I feel is the neat part about riding is you can be on that same wavelength for different reasons, but there is a certain fundamental appreciation of not just the sport, but of each other, all enjoying it together. [00:34:19]I dunno if you've heard of Deci and Ryan's self-determination theory. So self-determination is a theory of human motivation that looks at our fundamental tendency toward growth, and that we have three core needs and those needs are autonomy, competence, and relatedness. [00:34:41] So when you describe elements of cycling, and when I think of elements of the why we ride, autonomy. We got that autonomy of riding the bike , we have control over where we go and who we ride with and you have that competence. You have to have some level of skill. [00:34:58] So we want to be fit [00:35:00] enough to do the rides we want to do, with the people we want to ride with and feel competent. And then of course there's a really important piece of being connected and  being in it together, the relatedness or human connection. [00:35:11] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:35:11] When I think about how racing and big events have shifted in recent years, there's been a tendency away from, crits and road races towards gravel events, and you can go and get the experience that you want, and if you want to race you race, and if you want to just ride and, end up with different groups along the ride, you tend to pack up and then end up as an individual on some of the single track you can have that experience too. And maybe even you don't even know what experience you're ready for in a given day.  [00:35:38] So the last thing I did Lost and found in the Sierras. I get anxious before any sort of events. I was like, I don't want to raise this today. I don't feel great, and ended up riding and as the day progressed feeling pretty strong and I ended up racing. And both outcomes would have been fine. And I met a lot of lovely people along the way. Some of whom I'm still in touch with. And this idea of the best of [00:36:00] the compete to complete M.S. Ride sort of events and then a full-on competitive race where everyone is able to get the thing that they want and the thing that they need. And at the end, not have this sense of Oh, I was up at the front, I'm better than you, but Hey, how was your ride? Oh, it didn't you like that section. This shared experience. [00:36:19] Ted Huang: [00:36:19] And so I have a question for you. Did you, at any point in that experience, feel like had any FOMO fear of missing out because you weren't at the pointy end?  [00:36:28]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:36:28] In that case my, my identity is very much not tied into my fitness at this point, which is a good thing is I'm not very fit these days. [00:36:36]But for that event, I had  registered for  the intermediate distance and, the second half I really I was feeling good and I was feeling like I wanted to go deep and I just buried myself. For the second half of the event and in a way that I hadn't in quite some time, it actually was very invigorating to realize, Oh, my body can still do this. And it feels really good. I ended up winning my [00:37:00] category at that particular event. But it, even that was a nice thing to have happened, so the best of the rest in my particular age bracket. But as far as missing out on being at the front. No, not at all. I got exactly the race I wanted. I went hard. I chased wheels. I pulled away when I wanted to. I dealt with the voices inside my head saying  "just stop, just pull over for a while, just rest, just let off. [00:37:23]And, I sat with that and pushed through. So yeah, not at all.  It was a great weekend.  [00:37:30]Ted Huang: [00:37:30] I love that because I feel like you were able to not have that former bike racer identity cloud, the purity of that experience. I have that problem is what I'm saying is sometimes, Oh, my former self could have done this, making those comparisons, which I think are sometimes unhealthy, but you were able to pivot to this new experience of actually smelling the roses along the way,  enjoying the experience, opposed to it's all about that [00:38:00] outcome. [00:38:00]And just striving, to be the fastest when you're actually enjoying the experience during the race.  [00:38:08] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:38:08] Now I'm curious, you mentioned that you did an undergraduate at Stanford.  [00:38:12] Ted Huang: [00:38:12] Yeah, it was in organizational behavior.  [00:38:14] It's under sociology, but you take a lot of courses in the biz school. And it's about organizational dynamics, how organizations make decisions, and what's interesting to me is that my favorite theory of course, was one of the simpler ones called the garbage can theory by James Marciano also happened to be my advisor. [00:38:32] And there's all these organizational theories, highfalutin theories that consultants and companies use to justify their decisions. But honestly, at the top, It's a garbage can theory, words, all these inputs that come in and literally outcomes a decision. And it's usually based on the CEO's instinct or in other words, they take everything in and they don't use some theory to devise their decisions. [00:38:56] It's actually based on all their experiences that they've [00:39:00] taken in. And then outcomes. The decision  [00:39:04]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:39:04] you mean it's not a purely linear, logical, scientific sort of the process?  [00:39:10] Ted Huang: [00:39:10] Yeah  I Appreciated that because okay, so it's like they have to own that type of means to justify their decision making. [00:39:17] So if it falls in some model, that's great, but it's not always like that. That's not to say that all decisions are like that, but oftentimes it's just gut instinct and I, and I witnessed this firsthand, when I was working for the company, that was the title sponsor of the web core team. The Webcore CEO at the time , he used a lot of his business instincts to make decisions such as, Oh, I'm sponsoring the King of the mountain to Fillmore street. [00:39:41] So I'm paying X number of dollars. I want my club team in the race and, the organized was being desperate to get money. Said. Okay. And then after the fact like, Oh shit, we're only supposed to let pro teams in this race, what are we going to do? So we became us national team members for a single day. [00:39:58] We actually wore stars and [00:40:00] stripes jerseys. And we were literally the laughingstock of the Peloton could, they're calling us the masters national team because  [00:40:07] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:40:07] that's great.  [00:40:08] Ted Huang: [00:40:08] We're not national contracts. That was pretty. That was pretty funny, actually.  [00:40:12] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:40:12] And then that was the one that you won that your team won? [00:40:14]Ted Huang: [00:40:14] No. That was one of the back East, but this was one of the editions to the San Francisco grand Prix, the one that goes up Fillmore street and so forth.  [00:40:22]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:40:22] The word rationalization popped up in my head, as you were talking about how sometimes we will we'll think about making a decision based on logic and evidence and so on. [00:40:31] But at the end of the day, there's some underlying feeling and we find a narrative that aligns with that feeling. I used to disparage this sort of decision-making, but now I can see how there is something deeper than pure logic. There's a feeling that taps into something that for me was off limits for a very long time. [00:40:51] I was a very logical person. I was a very scientific person, physics nerd, math nerd. And not in touch with my feelings, nevermind other people's [00:41:00] and it's very limiting in terms of how it drives decisions that in turn reinforce how the decisions were come to.  [00:41:07]Ted Huang: [00:41:07] I actually want to hear a little bit more about that because it sounds you felt like everything had to be logic based.  [00:41:14] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:41:14] Yeah so to be very personal for a moment. I grew up in a Catholic household and there was a certain version of, spirituality that was presented in Catholicism, this celestial dictator which I did not resonate with at all. And so it didn't feel right, and it was not okay for that to not feel right. And so I had to reject it quite strongly and I threw out the baby of spirituality and being in touch with my feelings, with the bath water of all the negative emotions associated with what felt like a very coercive and unaccepting set of dogmas in this community. [00:41:50]It's only in recent years where I've gone back and revisited because that purely scientific mindset didn't really work. I have been on an entrepreneurial [00:42:00] path for some time, and I thought that was going to satisfy this need and it didn't. I thought that's being a bike racer and achieving certain things would satisfy this need that I was chasing. And it didn't. I thought that going to a fancy grad school would satisfy but it didn't. And at the end of the day, I had to go back and say, okay, there are certain things that are true  that I can't get to through using the tools of science and looking externally. They're actually things I have to go inside and tap into my feelings in order to access those truths.  What works for me, what decisions should be made in my personal life with something of consequence, what do I spend my time doing? [00:42:39]Ted Huang: [00:42:39] The thing is, we're made up of the sum of all of our experiences. I would argue that it's extra challenging to introspect without external data points or external experiences, but at the same time, those external experiences, you get knocked off whatever internal path of self-reflection sometimes if you [00:43:00] have a negative experience externally here, cause it causes judgment. Cause  all of our  learnings about meditation, it's all about non-judgment. [00:43:09]And so your experiences naturally, cause that. so, I think that how you self reflect it's extremely important. And so the work that you're doing and actually having conversations with people like me and others is extremely important in helping you gain more and more perspectives so that you yourself can sort through all these different stimuli that you're getting and then find your own path. [00:43:39] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:43:39] Ties into the power of community and the super power of vulnerability. So if you can create a dynamic, whether it be in a team or a community or a family system , where you can show up as your authentic self and express the feelings that you're having and have the vocabulary around it and have the safe container for it. [00:43:56]And for me, I had to learn that later on. Podcasts where I've [00:44:00] seen this behavior modeled. Or a certain friends that had a particular toolkit. You mentioned judgments and I love there's this tool that I have found really powerful, which is. Every time I judge, I say, okay, how is that a projection? And how is that projection a useful mirror on myself as to what within me hasn't been accepted. Because you can't recognize something in others that you don't have in yourself.  [00:44:25] Ted Huang: [00:44:25] So you what's funny, before you even said that I was thinking about myself and how I feel like I'm really getting better at not judging others, but I'm constantly judging myself harshly. And I'm still having significant issues with stopping that behavior sometimes.  [00:44:43]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:44:43] And it's one of the beauties of being in community where it is safe to be vulnerable. I also have that, the internal critic, and I bet there's a lot of people in the audience who can relate to that because we're told to have this internal critic. [00:44:56]Ted Huang: [00:44:56] Yeah. I have tools, they tell others to [00:45:00] think about when they're the internal critic is going off, if you were talking to your best friend about something they're going through, would you be saying to them what you're saying to yourself? Probably not.  [00:45:11]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:45:11] And I love to think about where, the original wound happened in childhood. Cause a lot of this comes from childhood, and being able to say imagine seven year old Randall, or seven year old Ted. Or even four year old, Ted would you speak to him that way? What would you say to that version of yourself? And this gets into ideas of re-parenting, of going back and doing the parenting work to help one's inner child get through that developmental stage and learn the ability to self-esteem as opposed to other esteem. I feel like the conversation to be had is , "how do we support each other on this journey?" [00:45:46]The bicycle is just an on-ramp for me to this practice .  [00:45:50] Ted Huang: [00:45:50] And honestly, I need to mention this pretty special bike ride, which I don't know if you've come down for. But the Dave stall ride.  [00:45:57] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:45:57] No. [00:45:58] Ted Huang: [00:45:58] So right now there's a big love Fest [00:46:00] going on the day stall group. [00:46:01] But Dave stall is a piano tuner is a friend of mine and I, an early days, early nineties, he would just have this conditioning ride on Wednesday. So that was the, he had off and it attracted all sorts of competent riders from aspiring Olympians, Derek Bouchard hall, Linda Jackson, all these, early riders Karen Brams and then, later on he retired from leading it. [00:46:25] And so Catherine Curie, a good friend of mine started leading this ride and just develop this community. Cause anyone could show up, you leave your attitude at the door was not stipulated. It was just everyone lead by example. So all the PR for current or former pros who did the ride, it was just, we're here to enjoy the bike, here to enjoy the community. [00:46:47]And just the comradery of being able to be out in the outdoors. And it really epitomizes what you're talking about and all the virtuous parts of riding a bike was what happens on this, ride of course    there's [00:47:00] some egos, but most of the time it's just checked at the door because the current pros are very careful to be inclusive. [00:47:06]Maybe you go harder on the climb, but it means nothing. You just regroup at the top, and it just super-duper nice, no drop ride. And, what is neat about the ride, although it's on hold right now. since the pandemic. Is that people of all fitness levels could enjoy the ride. Some people never raced versus, Olympians. It was cool. And Kate Courtney would show up sometimes and it would be one of her anything goes day. [00:47:30] So she knows this expectation that she not going to do a certain workout, so it can be a ride that you get out of it, what you want out of it. But the whole idea is camaraderie and spirit. Now I've never encountered another ride like this with such lack of ego and anything remotely resembling attitude. [00:47:48]We have all different backgrounds. We have Eric Wolberg three or four time Olympian from Canada. We would just have fun exploring new roads. And honestly, something [00:48:00] I think is special and it really brings out the best in why we do the bike riding thing. [00:48:05]That's part of what makes riding a bike special is because it levels the playing field. Even though there's different fitness levels, it really does level the playing field. [00:48:15]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:48:15] Granted you have to have a certain amount of means in order to both acquire a bicycle and have the time to ride it. That's something that we should all be very mindful of. And that accessibility element isn't available to a significant majority of people really there's a lot of privilege that comes with riding a bike. Which is reflected in its demographics.  [00:48:35] Ted Huang: [00:48:35] Exactly. I'm thinking the same thing, right? I don't want to go into the doping thing, but yeah. There's like in Europe, if you were professional bike racer, that's your way out of, let's see a life of farming, for example. [00:48:46] I think it's different in the U S versus different parts of the world, but all in all, it is a privilege and it's not to be taken for granted, right? Because a lot of people around the world don't have access to something is simple as [00:49:00] a bicycle.  [00:49:01] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:49:01] This might be a fun thing  to dive into a bit is topics of inclusiveness. [00:49:05] So we've talked about some of the dynamics that would go into a ride that feels inclusive amongst those who join it. And that's an important thing, but if you look at the bicycle industry, if you look with bicycle owners it's predominantly white, predominantly male, the average income amongst cyclists tends to be higher. You're an Asian American man. Was there anything particular about that experience that was unique or not?  [00:49:27]Ted Huang: [00:49:27] Yeah, so in cycling, I just recall quite vividly there hardly any other Asian American writers, obviously there was even fewer black writers. [00:49:38]Like maybe one or two during my bike racing career. But very few Asians. And I didn't feel like I was treated any differently, but in some sense, I felt like I was imposing my own stereotypes on how Asian riders were. [00:49:56] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:49:56] Oh, interesting. I'm curious what those stereotypes were. [00:50:00] [00:49:59] Ted Huang: [00:49:59] The stereotype I had was , we were more fast Twitch. We couldn't climb very well. Couldn't do longer climbs very well. And I never really saw a really good Asian except for Campo Wong from Hong Kong. He was at another level or more at the world tore level, but domestically, I just didn't see Asians being successful in bike racing.  [00:50:20]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:50:20] I would imagine the community, as much as it is still majority white and male, at that time there was, even fewer non white males riding bicycles. [00:50:29] Ted Huang: [00:50:29] Yeah.  So for me, actually, my main experience in terms of inclusion in running a pro cycling team at the disparity in wages between women and men. [00:50:38] And that still remains a huge sore point for me, that women make so much less than equivalent male counterparts. Even they work equally as hard and that's all media based. We could go for hours on this, and that's why we had such a highly educated women's team because they were all coming at this [00:51:00] post grad school , most of them.  [00:51:01]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:51:01] I think it was Rebecca Rush, I was at a dinner party when she was at and. She was sharing, that she worked a lot in the off season. She was one of the top female athletes in the sport, and yet she was still, working a side hustle, and had to work really hard for her sponsorships.  That speaks to something, not just in cycling, broader systemic issues. [00:51:21] Ted Huang: [00:51:22] Yeah, in windsurfing, I was the only Asian American at one point on the U S team. And I was treated differently, but I thought it was mostly because I was youngest one on the team, but  I didn't feel like a sense of belonging if we talk about belonging, being different looking than everyone else, even though they treated me mostly the same at the higher levels, the institutional level, I'm not so sure. I was treated equitably, but there was definitely some potential structural bias happening. At my age, I didn't really recognize it. It seemed like there's a little bit of, shall we say, different treatment. [00:51:57] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:51:57] Institutional bias, even [00:52:00] subconscious bias amongst individuals, which doesn't really get surfaced unless there's a safe place to actually talk about it, including for the people who have the biases. I can definitely identify biases within myself that I held. And I certainly will unpack more that are just subconscious things that are absorbed through culture. [00:52:18]Ted Huang: [00:52:18] I have them too, and recognized them.   The last few years, I'm pointing out to myself. Wow,  I have my own biases and it's so hard to shake and they're so subconscious that you don't even know they're happening , it's so unconscious, but still affects outcomes of conversations. [00:52:35] So going back to your theme again of belonging, I heard this the other day in this medical forum because of Christine that, it should be diversity inclusion and belonging. The belonging piece, I think, is crucial to helping be a solution to inclusion. [00:52:51]Because if you don't feel like you belong, you can include somebody, check the box, but is that really being inclusive if they don't feel like they belong?  [00:52:59]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:52:59] A bit of [00:53:00] counterintuitive wisdom that I've picked up in recent months is that feeling of belonging is something that you have to give to get. Which is to say, show up in the world in a way that is authentic and vulnerable and accepting of other people , and there will be a gratitude for having created that space and a sense of connection.  [00:53:19]Looking to the world to provide your sense of belonging is actually part of the problem. We co-create this feeling of belonging, you don't have one way feelings of belonging amongst people or amongst groups. It has to be something that is emergent. At some point, somebody has to be aware in order to help to create the conditions. And I view my own responsibility is becoming ever more aware and mindful and then showing up in the world in a way that models what I've learned and had imparted on me by people who've become aware and creating those conditions together. [00:53:51] Ted Huang: [00:53:51] Yeah, you completely hit it on the head. I think, really the distill it down, I feel like you need to bring vulnerability into the conversation, but if you can recognize everything is a [00:54:00] two-way street. Maybe that could be the mantra.  You find yourself slipping into the one-way street. [00:54:05] You go, this is a two-way street. So shut up and listen. So how many times are we so focused on getting our point out there that we don't actually listen to the other person? Cause that's, that creates a sense of belonging. Like literally that could be the first step. And I'm actually feeling like that's probably one of the more important Skills to learn is what we call active listening.  Part of my philosophy is create space for you to respond more intentionally opposed to just reacting.  [00:54:34]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:54:34] There's an element of, if you want to be heard, sit and listen and find resonance in the experience of others and create that container where they can step in, and then they're curious. My own practice early on the first bit of awareness I had was of caching. It's like, Oh, we're having this conversation. You're talking. It triggered this idea in my head and I'm going cache that. Now I'm focusing on cashing cause I don't want to forget this really important point, and then I'm [00:55:00] not listening.  [00:55:01]So an intermediate point toward active listening is letting go of your point. If it's important, it'll emerge later in the conversation.  [00:55:10] Ted Huang: [00:55:10] I love that. So essentially trusting that it'll come back. That's why we react a lot of the time. Cause we don't want to lose the thought. You don't want to, have to come back to it. If we have eye contact and aren't writing it down. Because you might forget, but it's almost trusting yourself.  [00:55:26] Randall R. Jacobs: [00:55:26] And it gets into the deeper meaning of the conversation or the ride experience. It's this connection element, what facilitates connection. Is it that point that you had to make, or is it  that hill that you had to beat everybody up or is it the shared experience in this feeling of being part of something belonging and so on? [00:55:44] Is there anything  we didn't cover today that you'd like to dive into as we start to wrap up the conversation?  [00:55:50] Ted Huang: [00:55:50] I just think, in this day and age of the pandemic, mental resiliency is key to being happier. [00:55:59]And so [00:56:00] I think we talked about briefly in a past conversation about our ability to reframe situations or ways to look at situations that made to seem like there's no positive side to it . If you can take a moment, take a couple of deep breaths, and then see if you can see what positives are coming from what seemed to be a completely negative situation that you're encountering. Because usually it takes days to come back to recognizing the benefits of something terrible happened to you. But if you can use the power of your breath or paying attention to how your breath is traveling in and out of your body for a few moments to quickly reframe, I think you'll more quickly become on the path to perspective and moving on. I think that's an important point I want to impart to listeners is that, even riding your bike, you may be hearing stuff you don't agree with from your ride [00:57:00] partners take a couple of deep breaths, reframe. Could be when you're in excruciating pain, trying to keep up, focus on your breath. And  all you're doing is you're distracting yourself from these woulda, coulda, shoulda. What if thoughts, and judgmental thoughts, and then you're getting back to being in the moment. [00:57:16]My whole goal with helping people is to achieve that moment to moment presence. I'd like to keep that theme alive with listeners. I think that's part of the reason we ride our bikes is to have that moment to moment presence that riding a bike helps us to get to. [00:57:32]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:57:32] This idea of who's to know what is good and what is bad. Oftentimes we will want to avoid difficult feelings and difficult experiences because they hurt, because they're painful, but there's this idea of post-traumatic growth, using one's triggers as teachers, sitting with it and saying, what is this trying to show me about my opportunity for growth, for wholeness.  [00:57:52]Even the pandemic, you might view as a cause of a lot of suffering, but there's actually another framing. This idea of "change [00:58:00] happens when the fear of change is less than the pain of staying the same". The pandemic for me and I think for a lot of people has ratcheted up the pain in the sense of, all of a sudden we're forced to sit with ourselves. And that can be really uncomfortable.  [00:58:13]But the other side of that equation as the pain is ratcheting up is the fear of change.  One of the things that I use in order to feel balanced is "how do I reduce that fear of change". So I appreciate you coming on to participate in this experiment in conversation about the deeper meaning of the bike as an on-road to exploring the psyche and community. [00:58:35] Ted Huang: [00:58:35] Thank you for having me Randall. It's been an honor and a privilege. I hope the listeners enjoy it and, take from it what they will. I think you're on a wonderful path to not only self enlightenment but exposing others to so many different facets of what riding does for us and beyond. It's just so much depth to our experiences you're helping to flesh out.  [00:58:56]Randall R. Jacobs: [00:58:56] A note to listeners to this before we go. If you'd like to engage with Ted, you [00:59:00] can do so at the ridership where we'll have a conversation going in The Gravel Ride Podcast channel that Ted the attending to answer your questions and connect. You can visit his website, Ted performance.com. Or you can find him on instagram @tedperformance. [00:59:13]And finally, I would like to thank you the listener for joining this experiment in conversation. And I'd like to encourage you to join us on the ridership forum to share your thoughts on this new concept, as well as some guests that we might bring on in the future.  [00:59:26]Craig will be back next week. So to honor him in the meantime, I'll simply close here by saying, "here's to finding some dirt under your wheels."  

Libbie's new single "Guess What Annie" dropped this past week. Hoping she will be eligible for a Grammy someday. *****We have officially begun posting extra content on Patreon- we posted a Food/Art Review yesterday and will be posting a video WEEKLY!***** Visit www.patreon.com/slopcity to become a Patron!  XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room

Jesus Christ! We judge a LOT of art this week! XO ALL HAIL PUCINA. Go to our Patreon!!!!!!!! We're adding a new segment that will only be available on Patreon. Get in while you can, Love You! www.patreon.com/slopcity Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

This weeks episode is a celebration of music, Columbia House & Tina's life. She is becoming a BUDDING influencer and reached 5k followers. She promised to take a dump in a public place if reached 5k & she did. Go to her instagram page to see the video.  XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.

This week's episode- we talk to Tomi Lepa, who lives in Australia!  Tomi is a long-time customer, been following Slop City since DAY ONE. He brought up the idea to us to teach us some *Aussie* slang, and we ended up talking long enough for it to be an episode! As we all know, Libbie & Tina have impeccable Australian accents and are world renowned for them.  XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room!

We're back in town! Stories from our shows, life on the rooooooooooad, we investigate our parts this episode etc.  Enjoy! We love y'all, thanks to all the Slop fans and gang that came out to shows. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room

Tina welcomes the ROBITS & Libbie/Randy DO NOT. Strap in. BTW ---- we are in Nashville this week opening for Chelcie Lynn & then in Huntsville, AL next week. Hope to see you there!!!  Unfortunately, we will not have an episode next week- January 19th. We will still be out of town doing shows, so we're off next week. Enjoy it y'all. Party hard. We love you. XO ALL HAIL PUCINA Produced by Randall R. Cash in his dining room.