Podcasts about willow creek association

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by John Plake, Chief Innovation Officer and Editor-in-Chief of the State of the Bible research at the American Bible Society. With decades of experience as a pastor, missionary, professor, and researcher, John brings a unique perspective on how people are actually engaging with Scripture and what we should do about it. The “movable middle” is growing. // One of the most significant insights from recent research is the rise of what John calls the “movable middle”—millions of people who are open to the Bible but not yet engaged with it. This group has grown by approximately nine million people in recent years. They are curious, interested, and even positive toward Scripture, but they lack the tools, confidence, or guidance to engage it meaningfully. This represents a massive opportunity for churches willing to step in and help. People want a guide. // Through focus groups and research, John discovered that many people in the movable middle feel intimidated by the Bible. They struggle with language, context, and navigation. But perhaps most striking is they want help. Contrary to what some leaders might assume, they are not rejecting the church as a guide. In fact, many say, “If we can't trust the church to help us understand the Bible, what good is it?” This creates a clear invitation for churches to step into a more relational, guiding role in discipleship. A surprising discipleship gap. // One of the most sobering findings is that nearly half of weekly church attenders are not regularly engaging Scripture on their own. While churches invest heavily in preaching and programming, many people are not developing personal habits of Bible engagement. John suggests that churches often focus on delivering content rather than equipping people to engage Scripture themselves. The result is a gap between what happens on Sunday and what happens in everyday life. From teaching to equipping. // If churches want to close that gap, they must shift from being primarily content providers to equipping environments. This means helping people develop the skills, habits, and confidence to read and apply Scripture on their own. It also requires understanding the real barriers people face, like time constraints, confusion, or lack of community support, and addressing those barriers with practical solutions. A new tool for churches. // To help leaders take action, the American Bible Society has developed the “Next Step for Church” assessment. This free tool allows churches to measure spiritual health, Bible engagement, and key leadership behaviors within their congregation. Within a few weeks, leaders receive a detailed, data-driven report highlighting strengths, challenges, and suggested next steps. Data that leads to discipleship. // John emphasizes that data is not an end in itself; it's a tool for better shepherding. By listening to their congregation at scale, leaders can identify patterns, confirm instincts, and prioritize what matters most. The assessment surfaces both what's working and where growth is needed, giving churches a clear path forward. It also connects individuals to personalized Scripture engagement resources, helping them take their next step spiritually. Why Scripture engagement matters most. // Nothing has a greater impact on spiritual growth than a person's relationship with the Bible. In fact, Scripture engagement accounts for a significant portion of overall spiritual health. When people consistently engage with God's Word, transformation follows—affecting beliefs, behaviors, and relationships. Signs of hope for the future. // Despite broader cultural challenges, John sees encouraging trends, especially among younger generations. Millennials and Gen Z show increasing openness to Scripture, even if they are still exploring. While overall trends may appear flat, meaningful change is happening beneath the surface. For churches willing to engage this moment, there is real opportunity for impact. To explore the research further or access the free church assessment, visit church.nextstep.bible and begin discovering how your church can better equip people to engage Scripture every day. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in today. This is one of those episodes that there’s a great resource in it that going to want to make sure you engage with. There’s super helpful content. Plus it’s about an area that I know so many of us are thinking about, we’re wondering about, we’re asking questions about. Rich Birch — So super excited to have John Plake with us today. He is the chief innovator ah innovation officer and editor-in-chief of the State of the Bible Research Series, which comes from the American Bible Society. And they’re on a mission to make the Bible available to every person in a language and format each can understand and afford so that all may experience its life-changing message. ABS has really a whole bunch of different tools and approaches, and we’re excited kind of expose a little bit more about that today. John has been in ministry over 30 years. We’ll just call it over 30 years. And it served as a pastor, missionary, professor, researcher. John, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.John Plake — Thanks so much for having me today. It’s great to be with you.Rich Birch — Why don’t you fill in the picture a little bit? Tell us a little bit about your background. You know, what brings you to your current work?John Plake — Yeah. Closer to 40 years now. Rich Birch — Nice. Yeah, yeah. That’s great.John Plake — It’s a little uncomfortable to talk about that.Rich Birch — That’s great.John Plake — Yeah. You know, I start out like a lot of people in ministry. I grew up in a home that ministry was central. Actually, both my grandfathers were ministers. My father was a minister. Ministry is kind of the family business in a way, but I really did sense a direction from God when I was about 15 years old to to pursue full-time ministry.John Plake — There was some detail around that. Ended up going to Bible college and and then started what turned out to be about nine years of full-time pastoral service. And I hadn’t been in that for very long before I realized that everything I learned in Bible College was preparing me to serve a generation that no longer existed in a culture that was gone. John Plake — And I thought, my goodness, I know God’s word pretty well. And mean, I’m a lifelong learner of God’s word. I love the Bible. And yet, didn’t really know culture very well. And I didn’t develop those tools until just years and years of practice, some missionary service, wonderful teachers at at Wheaton College and graduate school and and just a lifelong journey of learning.John Plake — So at American Bible Society, when I got here, the State of the Bible, program or this research project was already underway. And we’d been helped out by the Barna Group, which does some wonderful foundational work. And eventually it just kind of grew up and it got to a place where we had an internal team that was running it ourselves, now in collaboration with the National Opinion Research Council or NORC at the University of Chicago. We just do, I think, what is the largest ongoing study of Americans’ relationship with the Bible and faith and the church. And we get to talk about it all the time. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it.John Plake — So, I mean, this is the best job in the world.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. It’s it’s great research, something that I think should be on the kind of list of things that we need to be paying attention to. It’s been a gift to the church for so long and something that we should continue to to pay attention through. Now, let’s talk about you specifically. You spent three plus decades. I didn’t want to say almost 40. You know, I’m not saying that. I’m not saying that. I could say that, you know, a couple years ago, I clicked across one of those numbers with a zero on the end as my birthday. And ever since then, I’m a little sensitive about the the age thing. Rich Birch — So anyways, As a ministry, missionary professor, researcher, you’ve done a lot. How does wearing all of those hats, what do you what does that bring to you as you come to the data? How does that impact you as you think about really the state of the Bible research?John Plake — Yeah, you know, I think research can be dull. You know, it can sound like it’s all about writing questions or it’s all statistics and numbers. But for me, the research is all about the people. Rich Birch — So true.John Plake — It’s all about the people in our communities and in our churches that we’re trying to understand better so we can serve them well with the gospel. I, for years, I’ve used the analogy that that being in gospel ministry is like being a human bridge across a river. I grew up not very far from the Mississippi River in the St. Louis area, and there was a big 100-year flood when I was early on in ministry. And I mean, none of the bridges worked anymore. You couldn’t get from one side to the other.John Plake — And I thought, you know, that’s a tragedy that I encountered sometimes in ministry where maybe I was deeply rooted in one bank of the river, the text, but I wasn’t necessarily deeply rooted in the other bank of the river, which was the context.John Plake — And it’s this lived experience of the people that I was I was serving. And that I wanted to serve in my community, but I needed to understand them better. So I wasn’t just spouting you know Aristotelian logic to them. Or I wasn’t just coming at them with the pat answers that I’d learned. Like I’d never heard anybody in my life walk into my office and say, Pastor John, you got to tell me, what can you describe hamartiology to me from. You know like I had to learn that in school, but that’s not what people struggle with. Rich Birch — That’s so true. Yeah. John Plake — They had totally different questions and I needed to love them and honor them enough to understand their questions and answer them responsibly and reliably from the pages of scripture.Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. Okay, well, we’re going to dig into a little bit of just a couple of the findings just to kind of, we’re trying to whet your appetite, friends, to take steps towards this. So the 2025 data showed, and we’ve seen this, a real bump in Bible engagement, particularly among millennials and men. If I’m reading it correctly, though, we saw 2026, a shift happen, maybe back down. And so what’s going on? Actually, I heard another sociologist in a kind of a related field that was about church attendance talked about the dead cat bounce, that it was like, you know, which I thought, oh, that’s a, but there’s a similarity going on here. Pull this, this finding apart. Help us understand this.John Plake — Yeah, apologies to cat lovers out there.Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.John Plake — We were we were hoping, you know, I think we were really hoping. We looked at 2025. We saw that men in particular were leaning into the Bible in ways we hadn’t seen recently. Millennials doing the same thing. There there were some interesting numbers in 2025. And so when the 2026 numbers came to my desk in late January, I thought, I hope we’re extending I hope it’s going to be a trend. But it wasn’t. It was a blip.John Plake — And there’s more to it, though, than just the fact that scripture engagement didn’t go up. It also didn’t go down. And the level of people in America who are Bible disengaged, meaning they never pick up the Bible on purpose at all, that actually didn’t go up either. What grew was this kind of curious explorer group in the middle that we call the movable middle. And over the last two years, it’s grown by 9 million American adults. Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — And so what we do see is there’s there’s openness to the Bible. There’s experimentation with the Bible. But people are jumping in and they’re trying it and they’re not being able to get hold of it. And I think that’s largely because of us.John Plake — Because Bible people who are around them aren’t saying, please come do this with me. Let me help you. Let me honor you enough to to respect your questions, to ask what you’re dealing with, and help you explore those issues through the pages of Scripture.Rich Birch — I love that movable middle, man, that feels like the kind of group we want to connect with and reach out to in our community. Any other, when you, when you’ve been thinking about this movable middle, what are some other kind of characteristics of those people or other things that, you know, are kind of telltale signs of this group as we’re thinking about them as it, as it pertains to Bible engagement?John Plake — Yeah, they’re an amazing group, and we’re going talking more about them all year, but they are probably my favorite subject in America. There are 74 million American adults that are in the movable middle.Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — 74 million of our neighbors who are like…Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — …and here’s what they tend to say: They love the Bible. They think it’s a great idea. But if you handed them a Bible, they don’t know how to find what they’re looking for. They don’t know how to navigate it. They get confused by the language in in Scripture.John Plake — I remember doing a a focus group with a bunch of people in the movable middle. I was in Chicago. it was an area I was really familiar with. I used to pastor in that area. And we got them talking about their experience with the Bible. And we said, hey, does anything ever stop you or kind of you know make you check out because you’re struggling with what’s going on? John Plake — And one young lady at the table said, yeah, you know the language of the Bible is really really hard for me to understand. It’s it’s a really old book. It uses expressions I don’t understand. And a gentleman sitting across the table from her just kind of chuckled and said, yeah, what the hell’s a mustard seed? And everybody laughed.John Plake — I was behind the glass and I just about fell out of my chair because they didn’t teach me to talk like that in a Assemblies of God seminary.Rich Birch — Yes.John Plake —Things like that, you know, that’s just not the way we roll.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Yes.John Plake — But it was so authentic and he wasn’t being mean.Rich Birch — No.John Plake — He was just saying, boy, I don’t I don’t get it. And then they said, you know, we really want a guide. Rich Birch — That’s good.John Plake — And so we pushed on that a little bit. At the time, there were some clergy abuse scandals that actually there were billboards up in Chicago about clergy abuse scandals that all of us lamented. And so we’re like, OK, listen, do you trust the church to be your guide? Because ee saw these billboards, you know, and it’s your city. And so what what do you think?John Plake — And they said, well, of course we do. I mean, it’s terrible when people in the church abuse their position and abuse others. And that’s not what they’re supposed to do. But if we can’t trust the church to help us understand the Bible, what good are they, really? And so, yes, we’re looking to you, church, to help us connect more deeply with the Bible, understand what it meant to the original hearers and readers and how we apply it to our lives today.Rich Birch — Okay, that’s yeah, that’s really cool. I look forward to hearing more about the movable middle in this coming year. Another thing that jumped out to me, which I feel like, man, I’ve seen this in my church. This is like you you named a group that I see, but it’s surprising, at least it’s surprising on its face. So nearly half of weekly church attenders, weekly church attenders, which is, that’s like really engaged, you know, are not regularly engaging, engaging scripture on their own.Rich Birch — Man, what, so what should we do about that? That’s an interesting, how does, how should that impact our discipleship strategy? What are you encouraging us to be thinking about? And these people that are with us all the time, but they’re not engaged with scripture.John Plake — Well, I think the first thing to do is to just recognize it. Rich Birch — Right.John Plake — You know, a lot of pastors that I’ve talked to, when we talk about scripture engagement, they tell me things like this: Everything we do is scripture engagement. I spend my whole week preparing a scriptural message. I’m, you know, we’re preparing small group curriculum and Sunday school curriculum and all of this stuff. It’s all about the, everything we do is about the Bible. John Plake — Well, okay. But I had a I had a young youth pastor come to me not that long ago and he said, John, look, you were me once a few years ago. If you knew then what you know now, what would you do differently?John Plake — And the answer is I would do everything differently, than the way I ought to do it. Because what, in my tradition, there was a lot of emphasis on the preaching event, and I put a lot of effort into those communication events, but what I didn’t put as much effort into is empowering people in my church to do what I was doing, which was dig into scripture, understand it for themselves, giving them the tools to do that.John Plake — And then in May, we’re going to be releasing a chapter, just in a few few days now, we’re going to be releasing a chapter all about parents. And one of the startling things is the time pressure that moms are under. I mean, it’s incredible. And so we need to understand where they’re coming from and where they have barriers, but also have some compassion on them and help to support them when they’re really facing struggles. Like they don’t have enough time. They don’t have the resources or the community coming around them to help them to engage God’s word ah more fulsomely, more transformatively.John Plake — We know how to do this stuff, but we’re not connecting the dots to everybody that’s coming to hear us talk every…Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good. I know I’ve in my seat as an XP, um you know, I’ve overseen a lot of what we do on the programming side and what we do on the weekends. And I’ve, you know, it’s like, that i don’t think I’ve ever said this publicly. It’s like the kind of behind the scenes conversation. I’ve sometimes wondered, I’ve said, you know, like, what we do on the weekend to try to make the Bible understandable is so completely different than Tuesday morning in someone’s life. Rich Birch — Like, we pull out all the stops to make it interesting. We get like world class communicators, incredible graphics, you know, emotional music, all of this to try to… But then the question is, okay, so now on Tuesday morning when you’re tired and you haven’t had your coffee yet and you’re just about to go read scripture, man, like that feels like a long ways away. There’s like a gap there that I sometimes wonder maybe we’re making it worse. You know. Maybe we’re making it harder. I said that. You didn’t say that. Rich Birch — So maybe there’s pastors that are listening here and they read this kind of report. They read this kind of finding and they’re like, hey, that’s interesting. But like, how what do I do in my church specifically? So you know we want we don’t want to just leave people with a tough stat.Rich Birch — I think we see that in our church. There’s people in our church that are here all the time. They’re not that engaged. But you’ve actually developed a new tool or ABS has developed a new tool to help us think through that. Why don’t you walk us through it? Tell us a little bit about it. How’s it work? Talk us how it can help us.John Plake — Yeah, so recently we developed two tools that kind of work together. One of them you can find on the internet at nextstep.bible. And it’s just for anybody who’s like, hey, I’m on a spiritual journey. I’m kind of stuck. I don’t really know what to do next. Maybe you’re just getting started exploring what it means to be a Christian. Maybe you’re Jesus’ little brother or sister. Wherever you are in that journey, there’s always a next step for us.John Plake — And so what we’ve done is analyzed along about a million spiritual life surveys. Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — And from this huge quantity of data, we’ve learned that people are at different places in that journey. They’re at different points on the map. And we want to make sure that they’re equipped to have the right thing at the right time. I think currently there are 21,000 scripture engagement resources available there.Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — They’re absolutely free. They’re in English, Spanish, and French. So go check it out, nextstep.bible.John Plake — But if you’re a pastor or you’re a church leader, you’re probably wondering, well, what’s going on in my church, right? So I see all the national data, but I think our tendency is to say, well, we’re the exception, right?Rich Birch — So true. Well, that’s not our people. John Plake — I know I know everybody else is struggling, but we’re doing okay.Rich Birch — Yes.John Plake — And and so it’s good to check our assumptions a little bit. They used to say a really sad statistic that 10 o’clock on Sunday morning was the most segregated hour in America, which makes me sad. What makes me sad also is that 12 o’clock noon in America is the most dishonest hour in America. That’s the hour when pastors tend to start greeting their people after the church service closes and they hear all these comments: oh, Pastor, that was the best sermon I’ve ever heard. And it wasn’t. It just wasn’t. All right, let’s face it.John Plake — There’s somebody out there who preaches better than you do and better than I do. They’re available on YouTube. People don’t need you to be the best Bible teacher in the world. They need you to be the best pastor for them. Rich Birch — That’s good.John Plake — And the tools that are all about focusing on their relationship with the Bible, their holistic spiritual formation, and our leadership behaviors. And so for that, we built the Next Step for Church Assessment.John Plake — It’s actually standing on the foundation or built on the engine block, if you want a different metaphor, of the old reveal research that the Willow Creek Association had come out with. It’s no longer available. And we were able to acquire all of their historical learnings, but also add in things like human flourishing and e-pastoral leadership behaviors that lead to churches really being missionally effective and strong. Excellent stuff on Bible engagement and spiritual formation. John Plake — So the the big challenge we had, I was talking with Dr. Ed Stetzer about this because he was at LifeWay Research when the Transformational Church Assessment was being built. And it was always hard because analyzing this kind of data required a lot of human intervention. It’s very expensive to do. It’s very complicated to deliver. And even a small cost can be a barrier for churches that have strained budgets. It doesn’t matter if you’re a church of, you know, 2,500 25,000 or 250. There’s always more places to put your money than there are dollars that are available to do it.John Plake — And so at American Bible Society, we said, you know what, as a gift to the church, because we love the church, we need to make it completely free. And so you can go to church.nextstep.bible and you could sign up today. Literally, we’re recording this on a on a Thursday. You could go there today and by Sunday, you could be launching your survey. Two weeks later, you’d automatically have results in your own online dashboard. You’d get key highlights emailed to you. There’s a place for custom questions. There’s just all kinds of really, really rich information.Rich Birch — So good.John Plake — And it it doesn’t take the place of the kind of learning that you have as a pastor. You learn deeply in relationship with others. You’re observing what’s going on. You have a team that’s around you. But what it does is it provides this valid, reliable sift and sort function. It’s based on well, I don’t know even know how many, well over 3000 churches, well over half a million survey responses went into building this and making it a tool that that is a good benchmark for you to say, you know what, if we want to move from where we are today to where God is calling us, here are the things we need to focus on.Rich Birch — It’s so good. And friends, I want to encourage you to to go there. Just church.nextstep.bible. I know many of us have a heart for saying, listen, we want to measure more than just nickels and noses. The number of people that show up and revenue that comes in. And this a great way to kind of inject at something that’s at the core of what we’re supposed to be doing as a church. So why don’t we just give a little bit more detail?Rich Birch — What is it? You know, what’s it actually measuring? How is it? You know, how could it be helpful? How how could it kind of dovetail with some of the things we’re already tracking? Maybe give us, you know, what kind of insights are we going to gain from this if we if we put our people through this?John Plake — Yeah, maybe it’s worthwhile to just back up and say it’s based on a congregational assessment. So really this kind of work is all about just listening to your congregation at scale. So if you have 25 people coming to church, you can probably have this conversation with them if you know how to ask the right questions. Rich Birch — Right.John Plake — You can go to the website. You’re like, what’s in the survey? There’s a button you can click. You can read the whole survey. It’s fine. We’re not going to try and surprise you with anything. But really simple stuff. How’s your relationship with Jesus? How often are you interacting with Scripture? What difference is that making in your life? We ask the standard Harvard human flourishing questions. We ask about um how the pastoral team or the senior pastor, him or herself, is doing at actually modeling Christlike leadership for you. Rich Birch — It’s so good.John Plake — And all of that reporting then gets brought into a database. It’s all anonymous. So individuals don’t, they don’t have to tell you who they are. They can’t tell you who they are other than by characteristics. And you’re going to get this really good, robust picture of what’s going on at the church. John Plake — Now, what does it take for somebody to do that? It takes about 20 minutes of their time, and time is expensive, right? People always have too much to do. So in return for that investment, at the end of their survey experience, they will have already told us everything we need to know to match them to great resources at nextstep.bible.John Plake — And with their permission, not without it, they can click a button, pass that data over to the individual nextstep.bible platform. They can create an account and right away, they’re going to be finding things like YouVersion Bible reading plans that are just for them.John Plake — If you’ve got people in your church and they’re outliers, they’re they’re way more spiritually advanced than everybody else, or they’re just getting started and everybody else is way ahead of them, these kinds of tools create bespoke pathways for them so they know what to do next. All the while, the church leadership can sit back and say, okay, here’s our results. And as a team, now what do we need to do to serve the whole congregation well?Rich Birch — I love this. You know, this is what incredible tool that you’ve put together here for our churches to wrestle through and to, you know, not only help us as a church as we’re thinking about these issues, but then help individuals in our church. What what would be some of the ways that churches might use the data that’s generated to impact what we’re doing in our programming? How how could we use this to improve what we’re doing?John Plake — Sure. There are really three things we want everybody to do. First, just discover what’s going on. Just just check your assumptions at the door and and say, okay, what do the data tell us about what’s going on in our church life and in our people’s lives? That’s the first thing.John Plake — Second thing is it’s going to surface for you the top three things that you’re doing great. And it’s going to give them to you in the report. And you need to throw a party. Like there are people who make these things happen for you. No pastor is doing this all by themselves. And so plan a party, celebrate what’s going well.John Plake — The third thing it’s going to do is it’s going to give you suggestions about, okay, here’s where your congregation is today. It won’t surprise you, but it might inform you. I’ve never seen a pastor look at the report and go, ah you guys got it wrong. Rich Birch — Sure, right.John Plake — Usually they they see the report and they go, yeah, okay, yeah, you got me.Rich Birch — Yeah. Confirmed some hunches I’ve had. Yeah. Yeah.John Plake — Right? But we don’t we don’t have time. We don’t have the resources. We don’t have the expertise to be able to sit down and and kind of scientifically walk through this process. So we do that for you. We deliver the report. And then we’re going to give you two key action items that we think churches like yours in a similar place have done that have helped move them toward spiritual health and missional effectiveness.John Plake — And that’s really what it’s all about. We want your congregation to be spiritually healthy. We want your your church as a whole to be missionally effective. And when that happens, often there’s numerical growth. Often there’s financial growth. But there’s certainly more missional impact that’s coming through your congregation and its work.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. So if I’m like a church of a thousand people, let’s say, and just round number to picking out of the sky, how how what kind of percentage of my congregation would I need to take this to give me a reasonable, you know, statistical, you know, feeling good about the data for it? What what kind of number um should I be thinking about?John Plake — Well, the first thing is we’ve built in a tool that will tell you how to get to a margin of error of plus or minus 3%. Rich Birch — Love it.John Plake — And that does vary depending on the adult attendance that you have. So let’s say you’ve a thousand adults. And by adults, I mean anybody in high school or older can probably take this survey. Rich Birch — Yep.John Plake — And you can cut the data like by gender or by age. All of that live filtering is in the online platform. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s so good.John Plake — So if you’re the you’re the youth pastor and you’re like, well, wait, tell me about the young people that took the survey. You can just look right at them and compare them to the rest of the congregation, which I bet will be enlightening. But nevertheless, how many do you need if you’re a church of 1,000, it’s about 275.Rich Birch — Okay.John Plake — If it’s a smaller church than that, then you’re still going to need a pretty significant percentage. So if I roll that all the way down to a church of 100, you need 80.Rich Birch — Okay.John Plake — And if you roll that up to a church of 5,000, well, you don’t need that many more than 275.Rich Birch — Interesting.John Plake — So you’re going to report that out to you. It’s very, very doable. And, you know, I’ve pastored at large churches and I pastored a small church. And I’ll tell you, when I pastored a church of under 100, I could have gotten a census of the people, like everybody, to do a survey like this. They would have been glad to tell me these things. Rich Birch — Right.John Plake — And it’s not that I couldn’t have had a conversation one-on-one with most of the adults in the congregation. It was something different in that case. I actually didn’t know what to ask. I used to run into this when I was a campus pastor at a Christian university. And I would have young people walk into my office and I was like, I know I should be able to help them, but the challenge they’re facing is different than anything I’m familiar with. I don’t have any analog for this in my personal experience. And so this sort of takes the mystery away. We don’t ask fluffy questions. We ask research proven questions that are going to give you the information you really need so you can take action.Rich Birch — That’s amazing. That’s think this is such a great tool for people. I can see how, you know, it’d be so helpful for folks that are listening in to, you know, might be be able to plug in grab this experience for their people, help their church, help the folks that are attending. That’s, that’s incredible.Rich Birch — So, you know, you’ve picked an interesting vocation to be connected with the American Bible Society. And because, you know, this is such a critical and important part of developing people’s relationship, obviously, with Jesus; its core to all of it. And we have seen a long historical downward trend, and you’re pushing against that, which is amazing. But what gives you hope in the middle of all of that? What would it when you look at the church around you know, the country, where do you see flashes of just good things going on that are like, you know, when it comes to the relationship with scripture that even, you know, even when we see maybe the overall numbers are not as great as we want them to be, what are some kind of flashes of hope we should, that we could encourage folks with today?John Plake — Well, I’d like to maybe point to just three things that leap to mind. Rich Birch — Yep.John Plake — The first of them is I never talk to anybody in the church who says the Bible is a bad idea. Rich Birch — Sure.John Plake — Everybody likes the Bible. We’re all trying to figure out how to communicate its message better, to understand it more deeply. It’s transforming our lives, and we want to be able to share it with others. John Plake — And that’s great because, number two, there’s nothing that makes a bigger difference in somebody’s spiritual life than their relationship with the Bible. I mean, absolutely nothing. And I’m saying this as a researcher. I’ve tested it. I can’t find anything that makes a bigger difference. John Plake — In fact, when we looked at Christian college and university students, 60% of their overall spiritual health across lots of domains—beliefs, practice, putting faith into action, loving God, loving others, all these things, 60% of the variance in their spiritual health is solely accounted for by their relationship with the Bible.John Plake — So if we can help people have a dynamic relationship with scripture, we win. That’s all there is to it. It’s just that simple. And so that is really encouraging.John Plake — And then the third thing, ah the third thing is how I say this nicely? I'm I’m from Gen X and so to my Baby Boomer friends, I’m sorry, but you guys don’t have the influence that you once did.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true.John Plake — And that’s a good thing because there’s new openness among Millennials, and Gen Z and even younger Gen X um that we just don’t see among Baby Boomers. It’s like Baby Boomers made up their minds in the 60s and early 70s and said, this is what I believe and I’m not changing. And they haven’t. John Plake — That’s not to say that someone who’s a Baby Boomer can’t have a a spiritual experience and transformational experience. It does happen. But on the population level, like when we looked at the Bay Area of San Francisco, if you look at the scripture engagement, church engagement, love God, love others data in the Bay Area, it looks like what you’d expect, until you strip out the Baby Boomers. And then suddenly it looks better than every place else in America.John Plake — You’re like, what’s going on? Well, looks like all the unreconstructed hippies that moved to the Bay Area are actually holding a lid on the population numbers. And when you remove that and you go, oh, wait a minute, let me look under the headline and say what’s happening. There’s more going on than is easy to see. And I think this happens in big national trends.John Plake — Oh, is Scripture engagement up or down? Is you know church attendance up or down? Whats what’s going… big national trends. Yeah, okay, those are helpful, and we want those to change. But what’s changing first is below the fold. Things in Gen Z, things among Millennials, things in young men, those things are starting to change, and I think those are the first glimmerings that God is at work in a new way in America, and I can’t wait to see it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s a great word. And that lines up with what we’re seeing, even just experientially talking to churches across the country. You know we’re so we’re seeing there is something going on with younger generations, which is great to see. I was I was born in 1974, the lowest birth rate year of the 20th century. I am classic Gen X. Like you know I am like statistic I’m the statistical average Gen X and has spent a lot of my time trying to hand stuff from the Boomers to the Millennials. And, yeah, there’s lots of encouraging news there, particularly with the younger generations. Rich Birch — I also want to speak to on the the work I’ve done in the church growth stuff that I’ve done and coaching I’ve done with churches, one of the things that’s just undeniable is churches that have a high view of scripture, that is, they’re trying to get people engaged with scripture. They they talk about it like it’s actually true. How do we say don’t know what’s the best way to talk about that? Those are the churches that are prevailing, and that actually works out statistically. You see that time and again. Talk to us about that dynamic, which is kind of co-related to the things we’re talking about today. From your perspective in the stats and all that, how how have you seen that work out as you’ve looked at churches across the country?John Plake — Yeah, I think you’re exactly right. The churches that are the healthiest in America, that are growing, that where where people are spiritually healthy, have a really dynamic relationship with Scripture. And it kind of it cuts across tradition. Rich Birch — Yep.John Plake — There are some traditional things going on. I was listening to Justin Brierley and his surprising Rebirth of Belief in God podcast, and it was from last season, and he he had someone on, he was interviewing, and what she was saying was there are the parts of the church that seem to be thriving are kind of the, the the older, the ancientness traditions, whether it’s Catholic or Orthodox, that what she called somewhat irreverently, the smells and bells side of of the church.Rich Birch — Sure, sure.John Plake — And on the other side, kind of my end of the swimming pool, I’m, from the Assemblies of God, so the Pentecostal and Charismatic side. And she said, what’s going on is that both ends of that spectrum are totalizing. John Plake — They’re saying, you know what, the the Bible places certain expectations and demands on people. Christ places certain expectations and demands on people. And these parts of the church aren’t sort of shy about talking about that from a biblical perspective. She said, what’s what’s dying is that part in the middle where we’ve reduced church to a PowerPoint and you know an Excel spreadsheet. And she said, that part of the church seems to be dying and no one’s coming to the funeral. Rich Birch — That’s good. John Plake — And I thought, you know okay, right?Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.John Plake — So if we revitalize our relationship with God through scripture, there’s a next step for every church. It doesn’t matter what, you know whether you’re mainline or evangelical or, you know, Pentecostal or Orthodox or whatever it is, but but reviving our relationship with God through Scripture is really where it’s at.Rich Birch — That’s so good. i Yeah, I call that middle group the just because it rhymes doesn’t mean it’s true group. You know, like the, you know, were just like, it’s all my thoughts. No one wants to come and find us. They want to find God ultimately. Well, I don’t want to pick any fights with anybody that’s listening in, but I really appreciate today’s conversation, John. This has been great. So we want to send people to church.nextstep.bible.Rich Birch — The the promise of in two weeks, your church could have a comprehensive report on spiritual health, on where your church is, spiritual health is at, that’s a huge promise. And so again, this is go to church.nextstep.bible. Any kind of final words as we wrap up today’s episode?John Plake — You know, you might be familiar with Cally Parkinson. Cally was the co-author of all of the Reveal books, every single one of them. She was head of communications for the Willow Creek Association when they were running this. She’s probably had more conversations with pastors and church leaders about survey results like this than anybody I know, maybe than anybody alive. And Cally likes this so much. She said, John, I want to have a personal consultation with the first hundred churches that go through this.John Plake — And so if you want to be in that group, she’s going to offer to spend an hour with you and just walk through your results and help explain it. There are videos throughout the platform that will explain it as well. And you can’t beat talking to Cally. She loves pastors. She says you’re the salt of the earth. And she just really wants to serve you because the work that you do to save people is just so valuable to her. So anyway, just wanted to offer that. And I know you’d probably love to meet Cally.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. Well, appreciate you being here today. Thanks for the great work you do at the American Bible Society. John, appreciate you being on today. Thank you.John Plake — Thank you.

In this week's conversation between Dr. James Emery White and co-host Alexis Drye, they discuss the 50th anniversary of Willow Creek Community Church. In 1975, a young leader named Bill Hybels founded this suburban church in South Barrington, just outside of Chicago. What made it such an outlier were really two things: it had a strong entrepreneurial, outside-of-the-box mentality, and it had a passion to do whatever it took to reach lost people. They became one of the fastest growing churches in the nation and went on to found the Willow Creek Association. While they have had a very rocky road of late, what God did through Willow Creek Community Church can not be ignored. Episode Links As Alexis mentioned at the start of the podcast, we've seemingly had a run of anniversary episodes. In case you missed the ones she mentioned, we'd encourage you to check out CCP165: On the Nicene Creed and CCP167: On the 100th Anniversary of the Scopes Trial. There are two articles that might be of interest to you related to Willow Creek Bob Smietana, “As Willow Creek Turns 50, the Onetime 'Church of the Future' Redefines Success,” Religion News Service, October 8, 2025. Laura Barringer, “Did Willow Creek Skip Yom Kippur — Again?,” The Roys Report, October 10, 2025. And finally, as the conversation eventually turned to the downfall of Bill Hybels, there are a few past podcast episodes that would be worth listening to if you missed them: CCP4: On Pastors and Moral Failings, CCP31: On Celebrity Pastors and CCP40: On Criticism of Mega Churches. For those of you who are new to Church & Culture, we'd love to invite you to subscribe (for free of course) to the twice-weekly Church & Culture blog and check out the Daily Headline News - a collection of headlines from around the globe each weekday. We'd also love to hear from you if there is a topic that you'd like to see discussed on the Church & Culture Podcast in an upcoming episode. You can find the form to submit your questions at the bottom of the podcast page HERE.

Host: Steve Macchia, Guest: Jimmy Mellado “When we have an awareness of a need, will we run to the need? Are we going to be known for our generosity or for our stinginess?” - Steve Macchia   Steve Macchia and Jimmy Mellado connect in Episode 04 of Season 36. After serving for more than 20 years as the president of the Willow Creek Association, Jimmy has been the President and CEO of Compassion International since 2013. He and Steve discuss spiritual leadership, lessons learned as a decathlete, and the daily rhythms of surrender, restoration, rest, replenishment and communion with God.  Join the conversation about spiritual discernment as a way of life at www.LeadershipTransformations.org and consider participation in our online and in-person program offerings. Additional LTI spiritual formation resources can be found at www.SpiritualFormationStore.com and www.ruleoflife.com and www.healthychurch.net.  

#200: Jimmy Mellado is President and CEO of Compassion International, a global ministry that is dedicated to holistic child development in partnership with local churches. Jimmy is passionate about Compassion's church-based approach to releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name. The son of an engineer, Jimmy spent his childhood in the developing world and saw firsthand the powerful impact thriving local churches can have on their communities, especially in under-resourced environments. Before taking office as CEO of Compassion International in 2013, Jimmy served for nearly 20 years as the president of the Willow Creek Association.He earned his MBA from the Harvard Business School. Jimmy is an accomplished athlete who competed in the decathlon in the Seoul 1988 Olympic Games and still retains the national record for his birth country, El Salvador, in that event. Jimmy and his wife have three adult children and grandchildren. They've been passionate Compassion sponsors since 2005.Enjoy the show!

The problem of burnout among Christian leaders has become an epidemic in recent years. I've seen Christian leaders taking emergency sabbaticals more often than at any other point in my 40 years of ministry. The souls of many Christian leaders are in trouble. How do you care for your soul? How would that help address the weariness and overwhelm many are experiencing? I'll be talking about soul care with our guest today, Mindy Caliguire, on the Unhurried Living podcast. Mindy Caliguire is the co-founder and president of Soul Care. In the past, she has served in executive leadership at Gloo, and the Willow Creek Association (now the Global Leadership Network). She speaks into and advises organizations including Compassion International, ECFA, National Christian Foundation, and many churches and ministries across the US and beyond. Mindy's books include: Discovering Soul Care Spiritual Friendship STIR The book we're talking about today, Ignite Your Soul. ____________________________________________________________ Connect with Alan on LinkedIn or learn more about Unhurried Living programs on their website.  Learn about PACE: Certificate in Leadership and Soul Care Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

What does it look like to have a healthy soul? Our guest today wrestled with this question and found answers in the midst of her own season of burnout in ministry and fundraising. Mindy Caliguire offers vision and practical encouragement for you as you persevere in your own ministry and fundraising. Mindy is the co-founder and president of Soul Care. In the past, she has served in executive leadership at Gloo (www.gloo.us), and the Willow Creek Association (now Global Leadership Network). She speaks and advises into organizations including Compassion International, ECFA, National Christian Foundation, and many churches and ministries across the US and beyond. Mindy's books include Discovering Soul Care, Spiritual Friendship, STIR and Ignite Your Soul (September '24).The Soul Care website has a wealth of resources available - including free assessments and courses (like the Confronting Burnout course we mentioned). Check it out!

Mindy is the co-founder and president of Soul Care. In the past has served in executive leadership at Gloo, and the Willow Creek Association (now Global Leadership Network). She speaks and advises into organizations including Compassion International, ECFA, National Christian Foundation, and many churches and ministries across the US and beyond. Mindy's books include Discovering Soul Care, Spiritual Friendship, STIR and Ignite Your Soul (September '24).

Jon Jorgenson joins us for Chasing God Night Three. Jon is an author, speaker, and spoken word poet whose YouTube videos have been viewed by more than 20 million people. Jon partners with numerous organizations including Awana International, Moody Bible Institute, the Willow Creek Association, and hundreds of other churches, colleges, and conferences all over the globe. His spoken word poetry provides a dynamic and creative experience that captures the imagination of audiences everywhere. As a former Broadway actor, Chicago native, and very lucky husband, Jon hopes to provide a fresh, unique voice to some of life’s most difficult and challenging questions. Full Service

Show Notes   Today I will be chatting with my good friend, John Pearson, who calls himself a master, but not like you might think. John calls himself a master of mistake-making. Yikes! Just a bit on John Pearson… John is a board governance and management consultant from San Clemente, California. He served more than 30 years as a nonprofit ministry CEO, 25 of those years as the CEO of three national/international associations, including The Willow Creek Association and Christian Management Association (now Christian Leadership Alliance). John is also the author 10 books on board governance and leadership development, with an emphasis on leadership at the highest levels in an organization. With that, let's welcome author, CEO, consultant, and non-profit guru, John Pearson. LINKS For more on John Pearson visit his website at https://www.managementbuckets.com/about  

Mark Mittelberg is a bestselling author, international speaker, and the Executive Director of The Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics at Colorado Christian University (StrobelCenter.com), which offers accredited online BA and MA degrees, as well as certificate courses. Mark recently completed the all-new book and training course, Contagious Faith: Discover Your Natural Style for Sharing Jesus with Others. Prior to that, he was the primary author of the Becoming a Contagious Christian training course (with Lee Strobel). This course was translated into more than twenty languages and helped nearly two million people around the world share Christ in natural ways. He then wrote the leadership-oriented book, Becoming a Contagious Church, which presents an innovative blueprint for church-based evangelism. Mark's published materials also include the Making Your Case for Christ training course, and The Case for Christ Daily Moment of Truth devotional (both with Lee Strobel). His book Confident Faith was the winner of Outreach Magazine's apologetics book of the year. His smaller evangelistic book, The Reason Why Faith Makes Sense, is an update of a classic that touched millions of lives — recreated by Mark for a new generation. He also wrote The Questions Christians Hope No One Will Ask (with Answers), which addresses the ten spiritual questions believers most want to avoid. Prior to that Mark collaborated with Strobel to produce The Unexpected Adventure, a story-based book designed to encourage Christians to seize everyday opportunities to talk about Jesus. Mark's published pieces have sold a total of some three million copies. Mark was the original evangelism director at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, and then served as Executive Vice President of the Willow Creek Association. He was also an editorial consultant and periodic guest for Lee Strobel's television show, Faith Under Fire. He and Strobel have been ministry partners for more than thirty years. After receiving an undergraduate degree in business, Mark earned an MA in Philosophy of Religion, graduating magna cum laude from Trinity International University in Deerfield, Illinois. In addition, he received an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree from Southern Evangelical Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina. Mark and Heidi live near Denver, Colorado, and are the parents of Emma Jean and Matthew, both of whom serve in ministry roles. Find Missions Pulse episode #94 on our website at https://davidjoannes.com/094markmittelberg/

On today's program, we have updates on the situation at Grove City College.  The Global Leadership Network – formerly known as the Willow Creek Association -- makes a comeback.  And disgraced megachurch pastor Jack Schaap, convicted of sex crimes more than a decade ago, gets an early release from prison.  We begin today with news that a controversial “discernment blogger” has been charged with DUI and for carrying a weapon. I want you to know that this program wouldn't exist without the support of people like you.  We take no money from the ministries we cover.  We don't charge a subscription or have a paywall.  We are 100 percent donor supported.  If you'd like to make a donation so that our work can continue, please go to MinistryWatch.com and hit the donate button at the top of the page.  And now, you can now give via text. If this is your preferred way of giving, just text @ministrywatch to 52014.  Again, that's @ministrywatch to 52014. If you have a story you'd like us to cover, or a ministry that you think needs a closer look, please email us.  Our email is info@155.138.219.249.  That will come directly to my desk, and we'll take it from there. Also, a reminder that you can help the program by leaving us a rating on your podcast app.  The  more ratings we get, the easier it is for others to find us.  It's a quick, easy, and free way you can support MinistryWatch. The producers for today's program are Rich Roszel and Jeff McIntosh.  We get database and other technical support from Cathy Goddard, Stephen DuBarry, Emily Kern, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth.  Writers who contributed to today's program include Anne Stych, Kim Roberts, John Stonestreet and Shane Morris, Kathryn Post, Alejandra Molina, Calvin Cockrell, Bob Smietana, and Christina Darnell. Special thanks to BreakPoint, The NonProfit Times, and Christian Chronicle for contributing material for this week's podcast. Until next time, may God bless you.

On today's program, we have updates on the situation at Grove City College.  The Global Leadership Network – formerly known as the Willow Creek Association -- makes a comeback.  And disgraced megachurch pastor Jack Schaap, convicted of sex crimes more than a decade ago, gets an early release from prison.  We begin today with news that a controversial “discernment blogger” has been charged with DUI and for carrying a weapon. I want you to know that this program wouldn't exist without the support of people like you.  We take no money from the ministries we cover.  We don't charge a subscription or have a paywall.  We are 100 percent donor supported.  If you'd like to make a donation so that our work can continue, please go to MinistryWatch.com and hit the donate button at the top of the page.  And now, you can now give via text. If this is your preferred way of giving, just text @ministrywatch to 52014.  Again, that's @ministrywatch to 52014. If you have a story you'd like us to cover, or a ministry that you think needs a closer look, please email us.  Our email is info@ministrywatch.com.  That will come directly to my desk, and we'll take it from there. Also, a reminder that you can help the program by leaving us a rating on your podcast app.  The  more ratings we get, the easier it is for others to find us.  It's a quick, easy, and free way you can support MinistryWatch. The producers for today's program are Rich Roszel and Jeff McIntosh.  We get database and other technical support from Cathy Goddard, Stephen DuBarry, Emily Kern, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth.  Writers who contributed to today's program include Anne Stych, Kim Roberts, John Stonestreet and Shane Morris, Kathryn Post, Alejandra Molina, Calvin Cockrell, Bob Smietana, and Christina Darnell. Special thanks to BreakPoint, The NonProfit Times, and Christian Chronicle for contributing material for this week's podcast. Until next time, may God bless you.

Host: Steve Macchia, Guest: John Pearson “Once you taste spiritual discernment, you won't want to go back to the old way of decision-making.” –John Pearson John Pearson is a leadership and management consultant, who formerly served as CEO of the Willow Creek Association, Christian Camp and Conference Association, and Christian Leadership Alliance. His “Weekly Staff Meeting” email reviews at least one book per week, including The Discerning Life (sign up at www.managementbuckets.com). He shares with us heart-warming stories about how his life has been transformed by spiritual discernment. He reminds us of the importance of having people on our leadership teams who understand discernment and want to respond to God's desires and hear God's voice, urging us to focus on depth instead of #'s. Board Prayer: You can download the Board Prayer John mentions in this episode via the show notes page on the website here. Join the conversation about spiritual discernment as a way of life at www.LeadershipTransformations.org and consider participation in our online and in-person program offerings. Additional LTI spiritual formation resources can be found at www.SpiritualFormationStore.com and www.ruleoflife.com and www.healthychurch.net.

Dr. Bill Donahue, author and executive coach, talks about the benefits of coaching for church leaders, corporate C level leaders, and small group leaders. Drawing from his years of experience in education, ministry, and executive coaching. Bill served Willow Creek Community Church and the Willow Creek Association for 18 years.

“People who don't take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year,” says Peter Drucker. “People who do take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year.” In other words, one way or another, you're going to make mistakes. The only question is whether you make them well. In this episode of the Influence Podcast, I'm talking to John Pearson about how to make mistakes well. I'm George P. Wood, executive editor of Influence magazine and your host. John Pearson served more than 30 years as a nonprofit CEO at organizations such as the Christian Camp and Conference Association, the Global Leadership Network of the Willow Creek Association, and the Christian Leadership Alliance. He is author, most recently, of Mastering Mistake-Making: My 25 Memorable Mistakes — and What I Learned. ----- This episode of the Influence Podcast is brought to you by My Healthy Church, distributors of Bible Engagement Project. Most people have access to the Bible, but few regularly engage with it. Bible Engagement Project equips churches with digital Bible study resources to help people of all ages read and understand Scripture so they can become more like Jesus and live radically changed lives. Bible Engagement Project is available in both English and Spanish. Visit BibleEngagementProject.com to learn more.

In this episode, Rob and Lance interview Nancy Beach. Nancy Beach is most known for her groundbreaking ministry to more fully unleash the arts in the local church, and for leading artists with grace, wisdom, and skill. For over 20 years she served as the Programming Director of Willow Creek Community Church in suburban Chicago, building a community of artists who sought to create transformational moments in weekend church services. Nancy also served as a Teaching Pastor, periodically bringing the weekend message. She invested five years as a leadership team member of the Willow Creek Association, an organization that exists to envision and inspire church leaders all over the world. In over 26 countries and on 6 continents, Nancy has shared her passion, teaching at conferences and workshops.

On this episode, we are joined by Sandra Maria Van Opstal, author of The Next Worship and Co-Founder and Executive Director of Chasing Justice, a movement led by people of color to mobilize a lifestyle of faith and justice. We look at the failure of the multi-ethnic church movement, and we ask the question, “What does a multiethnic/multiracial church look like when whiteness is decentered?”Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we'll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.About Sandra Maria Van OpstalSandra holds a Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and is a Doctoral Candidate at North Park Seminary. Her teaching has also been featured at Wheaton College, North Park University, Liberating Evangelicalism Conference, The Justice Conference, Evangelical Covenant conferences, Willow Creek Association conferences, and various churches. Her most recent books include Rally: Communal Prayers for the Lovers of Jesus and Justice, A Rhythm of Prayer, Still Evangelical, and The Next Worship.Follow Sandra's work at https://chasingjustice.com/

In this episode, our host, Claire, is joined by Jenny Booth Potter. Jenny is the Co-Host and Producer of The Next Question, a video-based web-series devoted to expanding the imagination for racial justice. In the first season, the show has already hosted conversations with Nikole Hannah-Jones, Rachel Cargle, Andre Henry, and Brené Brown, and includes co-hosts Austin Channing Brown and Chi Chi Okwu. You can find out more about The Next Question at www.tnqshow.com. In addition, Jenny has led anti-racism trainings for churches and spoken at conferences such as CCDA, FILO, and the World Vision Pastor’s Gathering. She is also on staff at Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, IL as a creative producer where she writes, develops, directs, and produces creative content for Willow Creek Community Church and the Willow Creek Association. She enjoys creating spaces for people to connect and be transformed by the power of story. Listen on, beloveds, and as you listen, breathe, expand, grow, learn, transform.

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance. In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. Who Will Be a Witness offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book here.) This fifth conversation discusses Chapter Six of Who Will Be a Witness with pastor, activist, worship leader and author Sandra Maria Van Opstal. Sandra Maria Van Opstal, a second-generation Latina, pastors at Grace and Peace Community on the west-side of Chicago. She is a preacher, liturgist and activist who re-imagining the intersection of worship and justice. In her fifteen years with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Sandra mobilized thousands of college students for God's mission of reconciliation and justice in the world. Sandra served as Director of Worship for the Urbana Missions Conference, Chicago Urban Program Director, Latino National Leadership Team (LaFe), and Northwestern University Team leader (Multiethnic fellowship). Sandra's influence has also reached many others through her leadership and preaching on topics such of worship and formation, justice, racial identity and reconciliation, and global mission. She has been featured at Wheaton College, North Park University, The Justice Conference, Evangelical Covenant conferences, Willow Creek Association conferences, and various churches. Sandra serves as a board member for Evangelicals for Justice and the Christian Community Development Association. Sandra was also the Worship Director for the IFES World Assemblyin Mexico 2015, Lausanne Younger Leaders Gathering in Jarkarta 2016 and Global Gathering in South Africa 2018. In addition to her ministry experience, Sandra holds a Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Illinois and has been published in multiple journals. She has authored God's Graffiti Devotional, Still Evangelical, The Mission of Worship *and *The Next Worship. Follow Sandra on Twitter and Instagram @sandravanopstal. Follow Drew Hart on Instagram and Twitter @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on Instagram and Twitter @jarrodmckenna

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance. In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. Who Will Be a Witness offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book here.) This fifth conversation discusses Chapter Six of Who Will Be a Witness with pastor, activist, worship leader and author Sandra Maria Van Opstal. Sandra Maria Van Opstal, a second-generation Latina, pastors at Grace and Peace Community on the west-side of Chicago. She is a preacher, liturgist and activist who re-imagining the intersection of worship and justice. In her fifteen years with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Sandra mobilized thousands of college students for God’s mission of reconciliation and justice in the world. Sandra served as Director of Worship for the Urbana Missions Conference, Chicago Urban Program Director, Latino National Leadership Team (LaFe), and Northwestern University Team leader (Multiethnic fellowship). Sandra’s influence has also reached many others through her leadership and preaching on topics such of worship and formation, justice, racial identity and reconciliation, and global mission. She has been featured at Wheaton College, North Park University, The Justice Conference, Evangelical Covenant conferences, Willow Creek Association conferences, and various churches. Sandra serves as a board member for Evangelicals for Justice and the Christian Community Development Association. Sandra was also the Worship Director for the IFES World Assemblyin Mexico 2015, Lausanne Younger Leaders Gathering in Jarkarta 2016 and Global Gathering in South Africa 2018. In addition to her ministry experience, Sandra holds a Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Illinois and has been published in multiple journals. She has authored God’s Graffiti Devotional, Still Evangelical, The Mission of Worship *and *The Next Worship. Follow Sandra on Twitter and Instagram @sandravanopstal. Follow Drew Hart on Instagram and Twitter @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on Instagram and Twitter @jarrodmckenna

If you've ever felt lost in a transition in life--whether it's a change you've initiated or a change that's come to you--then you do not want to miss this episode with Nancy Beach (http://www.nancylbeach.com/books), author, speaker and leadership coach.  Nancy has shepherded me through multiple leadership transitions in my own life and has been a pioneer and trailblazer as a woman in ministry and in living out the gospel through her life, including in her role of breaking the silence of abuse and coverup with Bill Hybels at Willow Creek Church. (http://www.nancylbeach.com/blog/myresponsetotheapology) Together, Nancy and I talk about: What it feels like to "jump" out of a season and into the unknown How hard seasons prepare you for the future The three distinct seasons of transition & change Why the "neutral" zone is the most unsettling part of change How to handle loss well Also, I really do fangirl over Nancy for several minutes because that's how much she's meant to me over my entire ministry career...cannot wait for you all to learn from her and appreciate her wisdom like I have!! Resources: Transitions by William Bridges (https://www.amazon.com/Transitions-Making-Changes-Revised-Anniversary/dp/073820904X) The Way of Transitions by William Bridges (https://www.amazon.com/Way-Transition-Embracing-Difficult-Moments/dp/073820529X) The Land Between by Jeff Manion (https://www.christianbook.com/land-between-finding-god-difficult-transitions/jeff-manion/9780310318668/pd/318668?en=google&event=SHOP&kw=books-0-20%7C318668&p=1179710&dv=c&gclid=Cj0KCQjw8rT8BRCbARIsALWiOvQb4tVUq_VKAG6JsqvlMk516iHR2lFj16uVJAbkesDVPY2IF-oJ6jAaArLKEALw_wcB) Falling Upward by Richard Rohr (https://www.amazon.com/Falling-Upward-Spirituality-Halves-Life/dp/0470907754/ref=sr_1_2?crid=32VVHADLOI2QG&dchild=1&keywords=falling+upward+by+richard+rohr&qid=1603135524&s=books&sprefix=falling+upward%2Cstripbooks%2C137&sr=1-2) _Nancy Beach is most known for her groundbreaking ministry to more fully unleash the arts in the local church, and for leading artists with grace, wisdom, and skill.  For over 20 years she served as the Programming Director of Willow Creek Community Church in suburban Chicago, building a community of artists who sought to create transformational moments in weekend church services. Nancy also served as a Teaching Pastor, periodically bringing the weekend message.  She invested five years as a leadership team member of the Willow Creek Association, an organization that exists to envision and inspire church leaders all over the world. In over 26 countries and on 6 continents, Nancy has shared her passion, teaching at conferences and workshops. In her book, An Hour on Sunday, Nancy expresses the core vision and values which she believes are foundational to any effective arts ministry. Nancy's second book is titled: Gifted to Lead: The Art of Leading as a Woman in the Church._

In this episode, host Erin has a conversation with Sandra Van Opstal that challenges some of the narratives about diversity, inclusion, and unity. Sandra is a second-generation Latina and a pastor at Grace and Peace Community on the west-side of Chicago.  She is a preacher, liturgist and activist who is re-imagining the intersection of worship and justice.In her fifteen years with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Sandra mobilized thousands of college students for God’s mission of reconciliation and justice in the world. Sandra served as Director of Worship for the Urbana Missions Conference, Chicago Urban Program Director, Latino National Leadership Team (LaFe), and Northwestern University Team leader (Multiethnic fellowship).Sandra’s influence has also reached many others through her leadership and preaching on topics such of worship and formation, justice, racial identity and reconciliation, and global mission. She has been featured at Wheaton College, North Park University, The Justice Conference, Evangelical Covenant conferences, Willow Creek Association conferences, and various churches.  Sandra serves as a board member for Evangelicals for Justice and the Christian Community Development Association.  Sandra was also the Worship Director for the IFES World Assemblyin Mexico 2015,  Lausanne Younger Leaders Gathering in Jarkarta 2016 and Global Gathering in South Africa 2018. She is also the Executive director and Co-founder of Chasing Justice In addition to her ministry experience, Sandra holds a Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Illinois and has been published in multiple journals. She has authored God’s Graffiti Devotional, Still Evangelical, The Mission of Worship and The Next Worship.In this episode, Erin quotes from the book Prophetic Lament, which is also highly recommended. 

Today we have an interview with Jon Jogenson. Jon Jorgenson is an author, speaker, and spoken word poet whose YouTube videos have been viewed by more than 15 million people. Jon partners with numerous organizations including Awana International, Moody Bible Institute, the Willow Creek Association, and hundreds of other churches, colleges, and conferences all over the globe. His spoken word poetry provides a dynamic and creative experience that captures the imagination of audiences everywhere. As a former Broadway actor, Chicago native, and very lucky husband, Jon hopes to provide a fresh, unique voice to some of life’s most difficult and challenging questions.

Wesley Kenneth “Wess” Stafford (born June 26, 1949) is the former president and CEO of Compassion International and an advocate for children. Stafford is the author of two books, Too Small to Ignore and Just a Minute, and until August 2015 hosted the daily national radio short feature Speak Up With Compassion®. As a part of his position with Compassion, and his advocacy for children, Stafford is often invited to speak to audiences around the world. In 2008, Stafford was a guest of President George W. Bush and his wife Laura at a State Dinner. In 2009, Stafford spoke at the Willow Creek Association’s Global Leadership Summit alongside Bill Hybels, Henry Cloud, Patrick Lencioni, Tony Blair and Bono. In September 2013, Stafford retired from his position of President and CEO of Compassion International, giving that title to Santiago “Jimmy” Mellado. Wess currently serves as President Emeritus, continuing to travel and speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves.

Sharon Swing is the co-author of Listen to My Life; Maps for Recognizing and Responding to God in my Story. Today she shares how listening and life maps aided her in her own journey and how she adapted it to help others in their journeys as well. Through multiple experiences she found where she was meant to be and how she could help people push on from where they are right now. She gives some of her tricks to life mapping and encourages us all to reflect on our own journeys. Listen to Sharon's story today! Stories Sharon shared: Growing up in the NW suburbs of Chicago in a Christian family How a baptism service captured her heart The experience that brought her to tears after college A charismatic experience that changed her life Why experiences needs to be added to how we learn about God Her first lesson in listening to the Holy Spirit Entering ministry at Willow Creek Association and then having to leave How she was inspired to create Listen to My Life The story that made her cry and helped her realize why she has to keep going Great quotes from Sharon: My experience was God was a cosmic line judge waiting to tell me if I was in or out of bounds. Our box for God is so small and so confided… and God kinda blows the sides off of it on a regular basis. God always met me very invitationally, lovingly and humorously. It's a seismic shift in perspective from discontent to contentment. Resources we mentioned: OneLife Maps website OneLife Maps on Facebook The Critical Journey, Stages in the Life of Faith, Second Edition by Janet O. Hagberg and Robert A. Guelich A Listening Heart by David Steindl-Rast One Life Maps Podcast Refresh your relationship with Jesus by changing your relationship with the Bible. Try my brand new Bible experience, Jesus is Willing: An 8 Day Experience. The post Sharon Swing and How to Listen to Your Life appeared first on Eric Nevins.

In this episode, Natasha speaks with Nancy Beach about mentoring and leadership. They discuss the #MeToo and #ChurchToo Movements, women in leadership, what pastors need to know, and their hope for the future. Nancy Beach is most known for her groundbreaking ministry to more fully unleash the arts in the local church, and for leading artists with grace, wisdom, and skill. For over 20 years she served as the Programming Director of Willow Creek Community Church in suburban Chicago, building a community of artists who sought to create transformational moments in weekend church services. Nancy also served as a Teaching Pastor, periodically bringing the weekend message. She invested five years as a leadership team member of the Willow Creek Association, an organization that exists to envision and inspire church leaders all over the world. In over 26 countries and on 6 continents, Nancy has shared her passion, teaching at conferences and workshops. Show notes are available at A Sista's Journey blog. Show notes are available at A Sista's Journey blog. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Without interruption, every church has the potential to go through a very similar life cycle. Most start, grow, thrive, lose momentum, decline and eventually end-but that’s not God’s plan for the church. Churches can get stuck in any phase of growth on their way to sustained health. They can also get stuck sliding down the other side of the life cycle, experiencing the pain of ineffectiveness and decline. Our data has found 80% of churches are plateaued or in decline. Join Tony Morgan for an honest, practical conversation about what it takes to get unstuck. Tony is founder and chief strategic officer of The Unstuck Group, a company that helps churches get unstuck through consulting and coaching experiences designed to focus on vision, strategy and action. For 14 years, Tony served on the senior leadership teams at West Ridge Church in Dallas, Georgia, NewSpring church in South Carolina, and Granger Community church in Indiana. He’s written several books, as well as articles that have been featured with the Willow Creek Association, Catalyst and Pastors.com. He writes about leadership regularly at tonymorganlive.com His latest book, The Unstuck Church: Equipping Churches to Experience Sustained Health, is available from Thomas Nelson.

Note: Listeners interested in the issues raised by the Bill Hybels allegations may also be interested in Episode 102: When You Hear Sexual Misconduct Allegations About Your Pastor or Episode 80: Supporting the Opposite Gender in the Christian Workplace. Last year, Willow Creek Community Church founder and lead pastor Bill Hybels announced he was passing the baton to two heirs and would be retiring in October 2018. A lot has changed in 10 months. Since that announcement, 10 women have accused Hybels of misconduct. Earlier this week, The New York Times reported that one of leader’s former assistants accused the Willow Creek founder of repeatedly groping her. And on Sunday, Steve Carter, whom Hybels who indicated would succeed him as teaching pastor, announced his resignation. All of this occurred several days before Willow’s Global Leadership Summit, an annual event hosted at Willow’s Barrington campus and streamed at hundreds of locations around the world. As CT, the Chicago Tribune, and now The New York Times have reported on allegations of sexual misconduct and complaints about the Willow Creek board’s response, some less familiar with Willow Creek wonder why the ministry deserves all this attention. “Willow Creek was revolutionary in that previously, churches assumed that all that was needed to reach unbelievers with the gospel was simply to say it one more time and not do anything particularly different,” said Marshall Shelley, a longtime editor for Leadership Journal. Rather than just continue to sling religious language at the world, Willow’s leaders realized that “our culture is spiritually blind and is not going to respond to positively to a message that has grown overly familiar or has grown stale,” said Shelley. “Willow Creek said ‘We need to communicate in a way that is going to get people’s attention. Not say it the way we’ve said it thousands of times before but say it in a way that they’ve never heard it before.’” This insight grew the ministry of the church and spawned the Willow Creek Association, a network for like-minded churches thousands of congregations strong. It’s this latter ministry that organizes the annual Global Leadership Summit, which is simulcast around the world at hundreds of locations. Shelley joined associate digital media producer Morgan Lee and editor in chief Mark Galli to discuss what influenced and drove Hybels to do church the way he did, what inspired the church’s leadership and business mentality and focus, and what’s next for Willow in the wake of allegations of misconduct against its founder and former leader.

Join us for our second interview with Tony Morgan. Tony is the Chief Strategic Officer and founder of The Unstuck Group. For 14 years, Tony served on the senior leadership teams at West Ridge Church (Dallas, GA), NewSpring Church (Anderson, SC) and Granger Community Church (Granger, IN). He's written several books and articles that have been featured with the Willow Creek Association, Catalyst and Pastors.com.

The Unstuck Church (7 Lifecycles Of The Church) :: Tony Morgan Our Guest Today: Tony Morgan is the founder and lead strategist of The Unstuck Group. He's a consultant, leadership coach and writer who helps churches get unstuck and have a bigger impact. For 14 years, Tony served on the senior leadership teams at West Ridge Church(Dallas, GA), NewSpring Church (Anderson, SC) and Granger Community Church(Granger, IN). He has authored several books on leadership and ministry strategy. His newest book, The Unstuck Church (released in May 2017), unpacks the life-cycle of a typical church, identifies characteristics of each phase, and provides practical next steps a church can take to move towards sustained health. Tony has also written several articles on staffing, technology, strategic planning and leadership published by organizations like the Willow Creek Association, Outreach Magazine, Catalyst and Pastors.com. Tony and his wife, Emily, live near Atlanta, Georgia with their four children — Kayla, Jacob, Abby and Brooke. You can read a more extensive bio and his blog and work online at https://tonymorganlive.com/ A Few Key Ideas: Churches need action plans The New Testament church is the “body” Tony said, "We should always ________ before we build" What is the stewardship principle that we're required to live out? Tony talks about how strategy connects to heart change Tony introduces us to the 7 Lifecycles of the church Different approaches of the Life cycles in churches that have planted vs churches that need revitalization Tony talks about why many churches are closing their doors today The whirlwind that exists in the church and how to address it Links/Resources Mentioned (some items mentioned directly or indirectly through prior research): The Unstuck Church by Tony Morgan The Four Disciplines of Execution by Sean Covey and Chris McChesney Good To Great by Jim Collins Purpose Driven Church by Rick Warren Necessary Endings by Henry Cloud How I Built This Podcast The Unstuck Church Bell Curve (explained on the podcast) For Coaching, Questions, or Additional Information: You can contact us at info@thewiseideapodcast.com Subscribe via: iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, RSS Feed Coming Soon To TuneIn Enjoy what you're hearing & seeing? Do you mind Rating & Reviewing This Podcast? Your ratings and reviews help us place the podcast in front of new leaders and listeners. Your feedback also lets me know how I can better serve you. If you have the desire to donate financially to The Wise Idea Podcast, you can do so here. A donation of any amount will be helpful in allowing us to creating the movement to INSPIRE WISDOM. About Our Host: Christopher J. Harris, a native of Palatka, Fla., is currently Executive Pastor of Crossover Church of Tampa, Fla. He is also the Director of Administration & Vision Implementation overseeing the day to day operations of the Atlanta Headquarters office for Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship International. He's served at ministries in Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Chicago,IL. He's an author and blogger and most recently wrote a book titled, Temporary Assignments. He's an alumnus of Florida State University, University of South Carolina, special studies at Princeton Theological Seminary and doctoral work at Nova Southeastern University. Harris currently resides in Florida with his wife Dr Carmen J Harris and their children. You can check him out here: www.ChristopherJHarris.com You can see his Social media here on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Periscope, and LinkedIn ALL at @CJHarrisOne Here are Christopher's Theological Beliefs: http://christopherjharris.com/what-i-believe/ He is affiliated with the following organizations (among others): www.CrossoverChurch.org , https://www.fullgospelbaptist.org/, http://www.mosaix.info/ , and https://www.biblicalleadership.com/   Thank You's:

Join us for our March Podcast as we interview Tony Morgan. Tony is the Chief Strategic Officer and founder of The Unstuck Group. For 14 years, Tony served on the senior leadership teams at West Ridge Church (Dallas, GA), NewSpring Church (Anderson, SC) and Granger Community Church (Granger, IN). He's written several books and articles that have been featured with the Willow Creek Association, Catalyst and Pastors.com.

If you're a CEO or other senior leader who answers to a board of directors, OR if you chair a board, OR if serve on a board of a Christian organization (pause) and if you want your board to be more effective to further and fulfill the unique work to which God has called your organization, church or business, then these next few minutes are just for you. And even if you're not directly involved with a board, you're in for a treat. We have the pleasure of visiting with two longtime friends and incredible Christian leaders. They're going to share with you some of their very best wisdom, experience, and stories from their new forth-coming book: Lessons From the Nonprofit Boardroom. Dan Busby is the president of the Evangelical Council of Financial Accountability—known of course as ECFA. Forty years of experience serving the Christ-centered church and nonprofit community. Prolific writer of eight books. Named by Nonprofit Times as one of the “50 Most Powerful Nonprofit Leaders” from 2010-2015. And with Dan . . . John Pearson, board governance and management consultant. Former CEO of Christian Camp and Conference Association, Willow Creek Association and Christian Management Association, now Christian Leadership Alliance. John's the author of Mastering the Management Buckets: 20 Critical Competencies for Leading Your Business or Nonprofit. Find full show notes here http://blog.bcwinstitute.org/s3-e11-john-pearson-dan-busby/  

Today's podcast is all about the history of REVEAL—a story about a survey born in 2004 that’s become the gold standard for measuring spiritual growth for churches across the country. More than 2000 churches with 500,000 congregants have taken the REVEAL survey. Beyond size, our database is very diverse, including a broad range of church denominations, locations, sizes, and styles. REVEAL’s Origin Story: 2004-2008 In 2004, Willow Creek Church in South Barrington, IL, wanted to measure spiritual growth. Spiritual growth was defined using the Great Commandment as a guide, measuring the factors that increase a person’s love of God and love of others grow. Cally Parkinson was Communications Director for WCC at the time and headed up the survey effort, eventually authoring two books on findings from REVEAL. • Three key “inventors”: Bill Hybels + Eric Arnson + Greg Hawkins. • The question wasn’t “what drives spiritual growth?” Because we knew the answer—church activities. •The only question was which church activity was most effective at spiritual growth. Was it small groups? Or midweek services? • The surprising answer—neither one. In fact, we found that participation in church activities does not drive long–term spiritual growth. • Instead, we discovered that the most significant catalysts that drive spiritual growth are personal spiritual practices, specifically Bible engagement. The things we do outside of the organized church setting are the most powerful influences on growing our relationship with Jesus—and consequently, our love of God and love of others. The real breakthrough for REVEAL came two years later through the Willow Creek Association. The WCA is best known for its annual Global Leadership Summit, which this year will host 400,000 people in 128 countries around the world. Bill decided to share the survey insights at a gathering of WCA Summit pastors. Many of the pastors begged WCA president Jim Mellado to take the survey in their churches. We started with seven churches…then 25…then in 2007, 500 churches took the survey. REVEAL the book and brand were launched, leading to changes at Willow Creek and many other churches. For the first time, we had data that churches could use to see how their people were doing in their spiritual growth. REVEAL Best Practice Principles: 2008-2012 In 2008, studying the results from all of the churches that had taken the survey led to the discovery of the Best Practice Principles. • The first (and only) REVEAL conference was held to discuss the findings and allow others to hear from the churches we identified as being exceptional in their implementation of the Principles. •Nancy Scammacca Lewis joined the REVEAL team soon after as lead statistician. •We built a database of church survey results, mined it for new insights, and published MOVE: What 1,000 Churches Reveal about Spiritual Growth. REVEAL Archetypes: 2013-Present In 2013, a philanthropist with a technology company bought the REVEAL brand and intellectual property. Thanks to this investment, we rebooted the survey to be more user-friendly and published a second book Rise: Bold Strategies to Transform Your Church. In Rise, we describe our findings about eight types of churches—we call them “archetypes.” The eight archetypes emerged out of the richness of data we have on the two key findings we described earlier: • Where congregants are the catalysts of spiritual growth • How churches are doing on the Best Practice Principles. Our goal with the archetypes isn’t to put churches in boxes—it’s to give them practical next steps to make their church more vibrant. Looking across everything we’ve done and everything we know now about churches and spiritual growth, a pastor’s key takeaway from REVEAL should be that there’s hope—in fact, a lot of hope—because any church can RISE. We’ve launched this podcast to share fresh insights from our rich data on how churches can help their people grow. We want to take the guesswork out of church-work for you! Next time on the REVEAL Church Leadership Podcast: Key concepts you need to know to understand the REVEAL findings.

In this episode, Al has the great pleasure of talking with longtime friend, colleague and board and leadership consultant John Pearson. Join us for this fun and far-reaching conversation that covers everything from great leadership books, to board governance best practices, and even how to infuse fun (or as John likes to call it, "hoopla") into your workplace culture. John's fingerprints are all over the founding of the Best Christian Workplaces Institute. Yet, he's known for so much more than that. For 25 combined years, he led Christian Camping International/USA (now Christian Camp and Conference Association), the Willow Creek Association, and Christian Management Association (now Christian Leadership Alliance). Today, he's a management and board governance consultant whose clients read like a who's who of respected ministry organizations. Find the full show notes at http://blog.bcwinstitute.org/s2-e26-john-pearson. 

Why does having a healthy staff culture matter? Is it really worth the effort? Does it ultimately impact your organization's performance? Today's guest has a fascinating response to this question. Today we have the pleasure of visiting with Gary Schwammlein, who is President and CEO of the Willow Creek Association – known for helping Christians grow their leadership to maximize Kingdom impact through the popular annual Global Leadership Summit. Last fall, Gary spoke at the Church Culture Conference in front of 200 ministry and human resources leaders. In his talk, “Why Culture Matters,” he outlined the direct connection between staff health and ministry outcomes. He's going to tell us about that direct connection in today's episode. Find the full show notes at http://blog.bcwinstitute.org/s2-e17-gary-schwammlein-willow-creek-association. 

Tony is the Chief Strategic Officer and founder of The Unstuck Group. He's a consultant, leadership coach and writer who helps churches get unstuck and have a bigger impact. For 14 years, Tony served on the senior leadership teams at West Ridge Church (Dallas, GA), NewSpring Church (Anderson, SC) and Granger Community Church (Granger, IN). With Tim Stevens, Tony has co-authored Simply Strategic Stuff, Simply Strategic Volunteers and Simply Strategic Growth – each of which offers valuable, practical solutions for different aspects of church ministry. His book, Killing Cockroaches (B&H Publishing) challenges leaders to focus on the priorities in life and ministry. His most recent books on leadership and ministry strategy are available on Kindle. Tony has also written several articles on staffing, technology, strategic planning and leadership published by organizations like the Willow Creek Association, Outreach Magazine, Catalyst and Pastors.com. Tony and his wife, Emily, live near Atlanta, Georgia with their four children — Kayla, Jacob, Abby and Brooke.

Bill Hybels is senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church, a church of more than 25,000 that celebrated its 40th year in 2015. Bill Hybels is the founding and senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Ill., with a weekend attendance of twenty thousand. He is also chairman of the board for the Willow Creek Association, a ... Read More

Welcome to Episode 32 of the Joshua Gagnon Leadership Podcast! In today's episode, Pastor Josh sits down with David Ashcraft, the senior pastor of LCBC (Lives Changed By Christ), a multi-site church in Pennsylvania with 8 locations and over 15,000 people in attendance each weekend. David is a graduate of Texas Tech University with a degree in Business Administration, holds a Master's Degree in Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary, as well as a Doctoral degree in Ministry from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, in Chicago, Illinois. Because of its work around the world, in 2008 David and LCBC received “The Courageous Leadership” award from the Willow Creek Association and World Vision. David and his wife Ruth live in Lititz, Pennsylvania and have two grown children, Justin, a graduate of Lancaster Bible College living in Pittsburgh with his wife Laura, and Ashleigh, who currently attends Lancaster Bible College. Learn more about David: LCBC Church - http://www.lcbcchurch.com/ LCBC on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/lcbcchurch LCBC on Twitter - https://twitter.com/lcbcchurch Email LCBC - mailto:info@lcbcchurch.com 3 Takeaways for Leaders: 1. Be intentional and timely with your new hires. Don't necessarily hire people because you need to fill a need, hire people who can help the church to grow and move forward. Additionally, take the appropriate amount of time to ensure the hire is a good fit instead of rushing through the hiring process. 2. The multi-site approach to ministry is great, but it's not for everyone. Look at your model and decide whether or not it's worth replicating across multiple locations. 3. Instead of focusing on growth, focus on doing the basics well. If you have systems in place that lets your guests know that they are cared for and valued, growth will happen naturally. Quotes From This Episode: “Get to the point where you're not hiring generalists, you're hiring experts.” - David Ashcraft “Hiring experts brings growth, but hiring generalists relieves pain.” - David Ashcraft “It's about doing the basics well, then the growth will come.” - David Ashcraft “Find the ‘why' behind the ‘what'.” - Josh Gagnon “Make sure early on you find some very strong structures, systems, and vision that's worth of believing in 25 years later.” - Josh Gagnon “Be true to who you are.” - David Ashcraft

In this week’s episode, David and Kevin talk about the recent experience David had. He was fortunate enough to be able to participate in a course offered by the Willow Creek Association through the L.I.F.T. Project. Listen in to hear how these may be just the thing you need to grow as a leader! TWITTER: @wmcatalyst […]

Bill Hybels is the founding and senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois, and the chairman of the board for Willow Creek Association. He convened The Global Leadership Summit in 1995, following a God-given prompting to help raise and develop the spiritual gift of leadership for the local church. Both visionary and passionate about seeing every local church reach its full God-given potential, he speaks around the world on strategic issues related to leadership, evangelism, and church growth. An exceptional communicator, he is a best-selling author of more than 20 books, including Axiom, Holy Discontent, Just Walk Across the Room, The Volunteer Revolution, Courageous Leadership and the newly released, The Power of a Whisper: Hearing God and Having the Guts to Respond. Bill received a bachelor's degree in Biblical Studies and an honorary Doctorate of Divinity from Trinity College in Deerfield, IL.

Bill Hybels is the founding and senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois, and the chairman of the board for Willow Creek Association. He convened The Global Leadership Summit in 1995, following a God-given prompting to help raise and develop the spiritual gift of leadership for the local church. Both visionary and passionate about seeing every local church reach its full God-given potential, he speaks around the world on strategic issues related to leadership, evangelism, and church growth. An exceptional communicator, he is a best-selling author of more than 20 books, including Axiom, Holy Discontent, Just Walk Across the Room, The Volunteer Revolution, Courageous Leadership and the newly released, The Power of a Whisper: Hearing God and Having the Guts to Respond. Bill received a bachelor's degree in Biblical Studies and an honorary Doctorate of Divinity from Trinity College in Deerfield, IL.

Preached by Dr. Gary Johnson on August 29, 2010. Flying Lesson (C) 1999 Willow Creek Community Church Written by Donna Lagerquist. Duplicated by permission from the Willow Creek Association.

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This fifth conversation discusses Chapter Six of ***Who Will Be a Witness*** with pastor, activist, worship leader and author Sandra Maria Van Opstal. Sandra Maria Van Opstal, a second-generation Latina, pastors at Grace and Peace Community on the west-side of Chicago. She is a preacher, liturgist and activist who re-imagining the intersection of worship and justice. In her fifteen years with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Sandra mobilized thousands of college students for God's mission of reconciliation and justice in the world. Sandra served as Director of Worship for the Urbana Missions Conference, Chicago Urban Program Director, Latino National Leadership Team (LaFe), and Northwestern University Team leader (Multiethnic fellowship). Sandra's influence has also reached many others through her leadership and preaching on topics such of worship and formation, justice, racial identity and reconciliation, and global mission. She has been featured at Wheaton College, North Park University, The Justice Conference, Evangelical Covenant conferences, Willow Creek Association conferences, and various churches. Sandra serves as a board member for Evangelicals for Justice and the Christian Community Development Association. Sandra was also the Worship Director for the IFES World Assemblyin Mexico 2015, Lausanne Younger Leaders Gathering in Jarkarta 2016 and Global Gathering in South Africa 2018. In addition to her ministry experience, Sandra holds a Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Illinois and has been published in multiple journals. She has authored *God's Graffiti Devotional, Still Evangelical, The Mission of Worship *and *The Next Worship.* Follow Sandra on [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/sandravanopstal) and [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/sandravanopstal/) @sandravanopstal. Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna