Podcasts about christian leadership alliance

What does it mean to be a leader? The world often defines leadership in terms of power, influence, or personal success. But true leadership, the kind that reflects Christ, is rooted in servanthood, humility, and a willingness to follow God's calling with courage and conviction.  In this episode, Patti Garibay is joined by Tami Heim, President and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance, to explore how parents and mentors can equip young women to step into leadership with confidence and faith. Research shows that many girls desire to lead, yet fear holds them back—fear of being labeled, fear of rejection, fear of standing out. Tami shares her passion for developing leaders who combine mission-critical competency with Christ-like character and explains how we can nurture those same qualities in our daughters.  This conversation challenges the common misconceptions about leadership and offers practical wisdom for guiding girls to embrace their unique, God-given leadership styles. From the small responsibilities of childhood to the greater callings of adulthood, leadership is not about seeking status, but about using our gifts to serve others.  Whether your daughter is a natural leader or hesitant to step forward, this episode will encourage and equip you to help her lead in a way that honors God.   Learn more about Tami Heim and her work with the Christian Leadership Alliance at christianleadershipalliance.org.  Find an American Heritage Girls Troop near you, visit americanheritagegirls.org      Add even more Biblical wisdom to your parenting quiver, visit raisinggodlygirls.com

What kind of leadership creates lasting Kingdom impact? In today's episode, Tami Heim, president of the Christian Leadership Alliance, shares transformative insights on developing women leaders, fostering cross-gender collaboration, and embracing mentorship to inspire and empower others. Find full show notes here: https://bit.ly/421tamiheim Share the love. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate it on Apple Podcasts and write a brief review. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-flourishing-culture-podcast/id1060724960?mt=2   By doing so, you will help spread our podcast to more listeners, and thereby help more Christian workplaces learn to build flourishing cultures. Follow our Host, Al Lopus, on X https://twitter.com/allopus  Follow our Host, Al Lopus, on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/allopus/ Email our host at al@workplaces.org

[00:00:00] Vonna Laue: I started working when I was 13 at Dairy Queen. And if you work at a fast food restaurant, at least at that time, more than six or nine months, you're in a leadership position and you've got a crew that works with you. So I had that opportunity. And one of the biggest things looking back on it, and I didn't actually realize that until our girls got involved, but 4H was huge in my life. And at the time it was fun. I used to horse show and did a lot of the competitions at the county and state level. But when I then took our daughter to a 4H meeting and realized, wow, this is where I learned a lot of my leadership skills. They operate with Robert's rules of order and the kids run the meetings and they're elected to positions. And so I had that opportunity at a really young age. +++++++++++++ [00:00:55] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Vonna Laue. Vonna is a distinguished leader in the nonprofit sector, particularly known for her extensive work with churches and ministries. Early in her career, she served as a partner for a national CPA firm specializing in audit, tax, and advisory services for the nonprofit sector. She later took on the role as Executive Vice President at the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, where she focused on enhancing trust within the church and ministry communities. Her experience is widely recognized. She has authored multiple articles, co-authored three books, frequently speaks at national and regional conferences, and in 2010, she was inducted into the Church Management Hall of Fame, underscoring her significant contributions to the field. [00:01:45] Tommy Thomas: Vonna, Welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership. [00:01:48] Vonna Laue: Tommy, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. [00:01:50] Tommy Thomas: I've been looking forward to this for a long time. I first met you; I don't know how many years ago it was, but, Rich Stearns, the then President of World Vision had asked me to help him find some board members. [00:02:02] Tommy Thomas: He gave me some parameters and you were the one of the ones that identified. So, I guess that was our first encounter. [00:02:12] Vonna Laue: It was and that was 2016. [00:02:14] Tommy Thomas: In the words of Crosby, Stills, Nash Young, so much water has passed underneath the bridge since then. [00:02:24] Vonna Laue: Amen to that. [00:02:26] Tommy Thomas: Let's give us a few start up questions. I'm always curious, and I don't know these things about you. Before we get too deep into your professional career, take me into your childhood. What was childhood like? [00:02:39] Vonna Laue: I always enjoy telling people that think about birth order, that I'm a fairly complicated person because I was an only child and that automatically raises some red flags for some people. [00:02:53] Vonna Laue: And then when I was eight, my parents divorced and both remarried within about a one-year timeframe, and I became a middle child in two families. So, if you're gonna play the birth order game, I'm gonna give you a lot of information to mull over in that. [00:03:09] Tommy Thomas:  Where was your childhood geographically? [00:03:13] Vonna Laue: Absolutely. I grew up in South Dakota, which is one of the smallest populated states in the country. There were two stop lights in the town my mom was in and one stop  light in the town my dad was in. We may get into it more, but I had the privilege of going to a Christian school. And so, I tell people there were three in my graduating high school class. It was a definitely small-town America, and everyone knew what you were doing pretty much all the time. [00:03:46] Tommy Thomas: Now we've heard these stories; Even my parents who were raised in Alabama and Georgia, they didn't have the snow part, but they had the part about walking to school five to six miles a day uphill. In South Dakota, did you have to walk to school in the snow several miles a day? [00:04:03] Vonna Laue: I walked to the bus stop, and because I went to a Christian school, we wore skirts and dresses every day. And it didn't matter if it was 20 above or 20 below. And they also didn't have snow days when I was a kid. You went to school unless it was absolutely catastrophic. So yeah, I walked to the bus stop in the snow, in a skirt, many times, every winter. [00:04:30] Tommy Thomas:   Thinking back, what was the greatest gift you think your parents gave to you? [00:04:36] Vonna Laue: Actually, it was that very thing of education. When my parents, even when they were still married and we were living in a small town, they wanted me to get an education. And the best way to do that in their mind was through the local Christian school. And so, while my parents were in a mainline denomination and didn't have a relationship with Christ, that's where I went to school. And those three years and the education and the relationships that the Lord gave me there were critical for me. [00:05:09] Vonna Laue: And then when life changed drastically and over the next four years, we moved multiple times and were in different education settings. I kept begging to go back to a Christian school. And so ultimately my seventh-grade year was able to do that, in a different Christian school. And again, they agreed to that because of the education that they felt like I would receive there, but it was through that I came to Christ. So, I'm a big proponent of Christian education. And subsequently, my parents, grandparents came to Christ.  They didn't know it at the time, they weren't doing it for that reason, but that was by far the biggest gift they gave me. [00:05:50] Tommy Thomas:  You turned out at least initially as a CPA, was that a dream from high school? [00:05:57] Vonna Laue: It wasn't. I don't remember, sometimes there are people that remember what they wanted to do in elementary school and that's what they did. We sponsored cadets at the Air Force Academy, and one of those wanted to be a fighter pilot from the time he was five years old, had every plane hanging in his room and to this day he is a fighter pilot. That wasn't me. I didn't have that idea when I was little. When I got into middle school, I was volunteering at a hospital and thought I'd go into nursing and then wasn't really wild about nursing. And so, when I initially started taking college classes, I thought that I would major in chemistry and physics. [00:06:37] Vonna Laue: And had a semester that I was able to go to Bible college in Minnesota and wanted to take that opportunity. I knew that I couldn't finish there, but wanted to go and take some foundational courses and take things that would transfer back to a state university in South Dakota. And when I went, one of the classes that I took was an accounting class. And I took that class and I thought, this is easy. And then I looked around and realized, not everybody in this class thinks this is easy. Maybe there's something to that. And so, it was then, and I to this day wish that I had gone back to that professor, and just let him know the way that changed the course of my career. [00:07:23] Tommy Thomas: Gosh, I remember my two accounting courses in graduate school. I couldn't say that they were easy. Probably the first one was easier. We were taught our first accounting course by the CFO of Coca Cola Bottling Company in Birmingham. He brought stuff from the office every day to the classroom at night.  I think that made accounting maybe a little bit more tolerable for me. [00:07:45] Vonna Laue: Yeah. Real world application, I think does make it at least a lot more enjoyable. ++++++++++++++ [00:07:50] Tommy Thomas: What's something that people are always surprised to find out about you? [00:07:53] Vonna Laue: I usually can pull a few of those out. I would say the one I would share with you and your listeners today is, I was apparently the nation's youngest emergency medical technician and always will be because they passed a regulation not long after I got licensed, but I was 13 when I licensed as an EMT. [00:08:14] Vonna Laue: So that usually surprises people. [00:08:17] Tommy Thomas: That's a good conversation starter. [00:08:21] Vonna Laue: I thought you might like that one. [00:08:23] Tommy Thomas: So, you're out of college now. You're in accounting. Can you think back to your first management job and when you had somebody reporting to you?  What can you tell us about that? [00:08:37] Vonna Laue: I'm thankful. I'm going to back up a little bit just in the leadership journey because I'm thankful for the opportunities I had even when it wasn't my career, if you will. I started working when I was 13 at Dairy Queen. And if you work at a fast-food restaurant, at least at that time, more than six or nine months, you're in a leadership position and you've got a crew that works with you. So, I had that opportunity. And one of the biggest things that looking back on it, and I didn't realize that until our girls got involved, but 4H was huge in my life. And at the time it was fun. I used to horse show and did a lot of the competitions at the county and state level. [00:09:23] Vonna Laue: But when I then took our daughter to a 4H meeting and realized, wow, this is where I learned a lot of my leadership skills. They operate with Robert's rules of order and the kids run the meetings and they're elected to positions. And so, I have that opportunity at a really young age. Obviously when I came into the CPA firm, I served there 20 years and over the course of that time, started as a staff accountant and just worked my way up from there into a senior role and a manager role, a partner role, and then ultimately when I left the firm, left as the managing partner at the time of the national firm, so a lot of opportunities and challenges along the way in that, but I think probably the biggest thing is just how important people are and the way that you treat them and the relationships that you develop with them, not in a way that you're manipulative. But in a way that you truly are investing in them, that will serve you and your organization well, but it goes with them wherever they go beyond there. [00:10:37] Vonna Laue: So I look at that as an opportunity to make an investment long-term in a person. [00:10:42] Tommy Thomas: So if we could go back to that last three or four years in the CPA world, and here you are the managing partner, and you let me come into your staff meeting one day and after about five minutes, we dismissed you and I was talking to the staff and I asked them, what's the most exciting thing about working for Vonna?  What do you think they would have said? [00:11:04] Vonna Laue: It's a great and scary thought all at the same time. I think that I would take them on the people journey with me, if you will.  When I left and moved from our Colorado offices to the California offices, one of the things that really blessed me was one of the staff people that I worked with said, when you traveled with Vonna, she invested in the people in the hotel. When we would go to visit the same client year after year, the hotel clerks knew her because she would take time to visit with them and invest in them. I think sometimes that was annoying to people, and sometimes it was good, but created some interesting and maybe even exciting things along the way. [00:11:52] Vonna Laue:  We had a brand-new staff accountant one time, and we were driving back from an audit between Denver and Colorado Springs, and there was a wreck that happened right in front of us. And this poor staff accountant hadn't worked there for a week or two, and I pulled over and threw him the keys to the car and my cell phone and told him to call 911. And I just got out, and he had no idea what this accountant was doing. So I created some excitement, I think, just by the different ways that I would interact with people. [00:12:22] Tommy Thomas:  If I flip that coin, what would they say was the most challenging aspect of working for you? [00:12:29] Vonna Laue: I tend to do a lot of different things. I think you've come to know that about me over the years, Tommy. And I try very hard to let people know that my busyness is my problem and not theirs, but I think that people often are concerned that they're a bother or they're concerned they can't get time. So, I try to work with the people closest to me frequently on how best to manage. And I'm sure that's not an easy thing. [00:13:07] Tommy Thomas:   Successful people are often asked, what makes you so successful? I'd like to frame the question this way, what's a factor that's helped you succeed that people from the outside probably wouldn't be aware of? [00:13:20] Vonna Laue: I'll start off with the primary one beyond the obvious one and everyone's the Lord, right? And then, and I 100 percent agree with that. If God had only ever given me what I prayed for, I'd have sure missed out on an incredible amount of opportunity. So that is a given. Quite honestly. My husband is very instrumental in my success and a lot of people don't know that because Brian's behind the scenes and most people don't know him, but I talk about being raised in a small town and we still laugh about it to this day, but I was terrified to be around people. We went to a football game one time that had a couple thousand people at it. [00:14:08] Vonna Laue: And I said, would you go get me popcorn? And he said, you can get it yourself. And he wasn't being rude or mean. He just knew that I needed to grow. And I was like, no, I don't need it. And he's like go get your popcorn. And he just has had the foresight over the years to stretch and grow me. And now I think this year I will have probably seven international trips, have the opportunity to speak to hundreds of people at a time, just amazing opportunities and that's a big part of it. But on a personal front, I think that the key to that is being willing to be stretched. That's not easy. It's a lot easier to go with the routine, to go with the things that are known. But when you're willing to open yourself up to opportunities to be stretched, to take advantage of uncomfortable situations, you get a lot more opportunity that follows. ++++++++++++++++ [00:15:11] Tommy Thomas: I'm going to make the assumption here that you've had some good mentors in life. Can you take us down that rabbit trail? [00:15:17] Vonna Laue: I love to talk about mentoring. One of the things that I found throughout a good portion of my career was that it was really hard for me to find a mentor. And the reason that I say that is because I could find godly women who would invest in me personally and spiritually, but many of them had the perspective of a stay-at-home mom and that they didn't understand why I had the desire to have a career. I love my girls who are grown now, but always laughed that they would not have wanted me at home with them all the time because I don't care that you're two. You should be able to organize your closet by short sleeve, long sleeve, skirts, dresses, get it organized. So, I had that challenge, with those women that I wanted to speak into that portion of my life. And then when I looked for someone who professionally could invest and develop me, there was almost the opposite of that. [00:16:21] Vonna Laue: And it was, you got to give everything you have to the job. You're never going to get ahead if you try to balance family. Now, obviously both of those I'm saying to an extreme, but I just had a really difficult time for a long time finding someone who understood my faith and commitment to family, as well as my desire to be excellent in my career. And over time, I have done that. Tammy Heim has been a great mentor to me and a good balance of those things. And there have been others, but it has given me a commitment that we find that for other people. So, two things I would say, one is I have a distinction of my own between coaching and mentoring. Coaching I believe is professional in nature. [00:17:10] Vonna Laue: Men and women can work together in a coaching situation. I personally believe that mentoring often flows over into more personal aspects of your life. And it's a holistic approach to family and work and all of those things. And my idea with mentoring is that it should be the same gender, because I don't want to be talking about the difficulties I'm having at home with a male counterpart.  That just isn't appropriate to me. So, I differentiate those two things based on that. And I know not everyone does, but over the last couple of years have had just the extreme privilege of starting some peer mentoring groups for young ladies. And each group is three young women in similar stages of life, but in different roles and in different organizations. [00:18:00] Vonna Laue: So, they don't come in and fix each other's problems by, oh, you need this software, or you need this vendor. They really listen and help each other problem solve. And then each group has a seasoned leader in it that can contribute maybe some of the stories that she's encountered over time, or even just to be the brakes like, but you could do that, but you might consider what could happen as a result. [00:18:25] Vonna Laue:  Two years ago, we started with two of those groups, we're just wrapping up the second year with five, and next month will start 10 groups committed for the following year. So excited about the opportunity to invest in other young women. [00:18:42] Tommy Thomas: So, let me take that just a little bit further and we may come back to it later. Board service has been a big part of your life, certainly in the last 20 years. In your mentoring, are you talking to these women about board service and the pros and cons and if you serve, what's your best contribution kind of thing and trying to give them some opportunities to do that, right? [00:19:09] Vonna Laue: The first board I served on was not World Vision.  I want to remind people, both young people who are getting into board service, get involved in a local community board, whether that is. I served our hospital in Colorado Springs on their governmental committee. Whether it's a local chapter of some organization, the church network and Christian Leadership Alliance served on some of those, taking the opportunities to get involved in that at a more local level and then work your way up just like you would in almost anything else you do. You don't take up woodworking and become a master craftsman overnight. You start small. So, encouraging them to do that and then encouraging boards and leaders to give young people opportunity and don't expect them to come in with 25 years of experience. [00:20:10] Vonna Laue: You open the opportunities for them to come in and the things that they will contribute to your board discussions you can't imagine. So, I'm excited about what the future looks like. [00:20:27] Tommy Thomas: So, going back to personal leadership for a minute, in the book, It's How You Play the Game: The 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith, leadership principle #10 is making failure your friend. Can you share something from your life where this has been in play? [00:20:45] Vonna Laue: Nobody likes to fail, but it absolutely is true and the things that you learn from that and I look back on my time as Managing Partner at the firm and what a blessing that was and how gracious those partners were with me, because I would say, at least one of my biggest failures was just in how I handled the people involved there. And I just got done saying I love people and I do, but I will say all of those leaders are incredibly successful people and, no, I don't mean anything bad by this for those that are in a professional service firm, but it is so true that it's like herding cats because they all have their own realm and their own domain. [00:21:33] Vonna Laue: And they're really good at that. And I wasn't really good at bringing them all together at times and helping us find a strategic vision to go forward in, in one direction where we were all pulling in the same way. And so when I hear that quote, that's one of the things that I think about. And that's been a benefit to me in the years after that to look at, how do we get people to pull in the same direction when they have vested interests in a number of different ways? And now I serve in a mission sending organization. And there's some similarity there when you've got global workers that have their own domain in many parts of the world. God used that to equip me for some of the decisions that have to be made in this setting. +++++++++++++++ [00:22:16] Tommy Thomas: Going back to your mentoring thing for a minute, are you introducing failure to these young women? [00:22:23] Vonna Laue: I would say what I have found is that they're introducing some of their own failures and learning from each other and encouraging each other and the opportunity that it provides those of us that are the season leaders is to say, hey, like this isn't a bad thing. This is difficult. And you would have wanted to avoid this, but this is part of your growing and part of your maturing as a leader and to provide some insights there and embrace it and let them learn from each other.  I would say that's probably been the best part of the failure within those groups. [00:23:03] Tommy Thomas: Frederick Wilcox said progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base with your foot on first. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken and how did it turn out? [00:23:17] Vonna Laue: One of the things that I have thought about over the years and comes from the lessons that I've talked about where I was glad, I didn't know, taking the Managing Partner role was a huge risk at the time. I remember vividly sitting with my husband and saying that if I take this role, there's no going back. Like you don't just leave that and go back into the setting where you were before. And we prayed about it and really felt like that's what we were supposed to do. And that was a huge blessing. [00:23:52] Vonna Laue: It was a challenge, like I've just said, but it was a huge blessing. And then, even bigger than that was the year that I left the firm and that was God saying, you've done what I've called you to do here, and now it's time to leave. And I had three arguments for the Lord, and Tommy, I don't know if you've ever argued with the Lord. If you haven't, I don't suggest it. You're not going to win. So just save your breath. But I had three arguments for him. Number one was I was a lifer. I've told everyone for years, I'm at this firm until retirement. I love it. I'm here. And he said, no. And I said, my second argument was this is economically stupid because he wasn't calling me to something. [00:24:42] Vonna Laue: He was calling me away from something. And he reminded me of that cattle on a thousand hills. And I was like, ah, yep. He's got that too. And then my third argument was just a little more logistical and operational. And that was that our oldest was headed to college, but our youngest was headed to high school. And I just said to him, Lord, you can interrupt. My husbands in my life, but let's not mess with our daughter going into high school. Give me four more years and maybe, and he said, no. And so, without having a job, I was supposed to give 12 months' notice. I went to the partners September 1st of that year and said to them, I believe this is a matter of obedience. [00:25:23] Vonna Laue: And I think if I don't do it, it's going to be detrimental to the firm and detrimental to our family. And they were gracious and agreed. And so, I wrapped up in four months. I had 150 or so meetings to tell clients I was leaving, and the firm was fine, network people, that I had connections with that I was moving on. And of course, what's the first question everyone asks you is, so what are you going to do? And this left-brain analytical type A personality had to look at them all 150 times and say, I don't know. And that was a challenge, but it was exactly what God called us to do at that point in time. And I'm glad that while I'm not always faithful and following through, I'm glad that we did that. ++++++++++++++++ [00:26:14] Tommy Thomas: Join us next week as we continue this conversation with Vonna Laue.  Vonna shares insights from her new book, Glad I Didn't Know, which explores lessons learned from life's challenges and unexpected blessings. She discusses the importance of having people who speak truth into a leader's life, the critical role of team dynamics, and the necessity of balancing personal and professional health. Vonna also reflects on the increasing significance of risk management and the impact of artificial intelligence in the nonprofit sector. Tune in for an engaging discussion on leadership, resilience, and growth. Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Follow Tommy on LinkedIn Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify  

Tami Heim has been the president and CEO of Christian Leadership Alliance since January 2012. Her professional career includes executive leadership experience in technology, marketing, publishing, and retail. She has served as a partner in The A Group – Brand Development, executive vice president and chief publishing officer for Thomas Nelson Publishers, and as the president of Borders, Inc.Tami was certified in for-profit board governance through The Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. Her nonprofit board experience includes serving on the boards of EQUIP, Lead Like Jesus, Christian Alliance for Orphans, and Growing Leaders. Christianity Today, and Christian Leadership Alliance.  She completed the Christian Credentialed Nonprofit Leader  (CCNL) program in 2013 and now facilitates the online CCNL-Leadership Course for the Alliance.

[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with Andrea Buczynski - recently retired Global Vice President for Leadership Development and Human Resources at Cru. Her narrative is a testament to the power of purpose driven leadership. Throughout the podcast, Andrea emphasizes the value of teamwork in collaboration. Her story is particularly inspiring for those interested in how personal values and professional demands intersect in nonprofit leadership. Her journey illustrates how embracing change fosters a supportive team environment. And maintaining a clear focus on organizational and personal goals are crucial for effective leadership. Let's pick up where we left off last week. ++++++++++++++++++= [00:00:52] Tommy Thomas:: When I was talking to Dee Dee Wilson, she's going to be a guest here in probably three or four weeks, but she was talking about this and I'm sure y'all have a name for it, but this peer group of women that both of you and I guess up to 15 other people are a member of, a peer-to-peer kind of iron sharpens iron kind of thing. I'm guessing. Tell us about that and maybe how y'all got into that. What it's been like. [00:01:17] Andrea Buczynski: Yeah, the group is called Arête Executive Women of Influence.  And it's a by invitation membership and we ascribe to a common set of values. We espouse Christian values as leaders and are committed to confidentiality. And so, what that does is it creates a common experience and a safe environment. And I'll tell you, there is nothing like being with a group of women who are high achieving, who are very ethical, strong character, competent and the kinds of, I would say both empathy, understanding, and wisdom that emerges, as we listen to each other and cheer one another on. [00:02:12] Andrea Buczynski: It's wonderful to have kind of a safe port where you can be honest about the stuff you're experiencing. Many of the women will have experienced something similar and bring their own experience to your journey. And so, I found it immensely helpful. [00:02:30] Tommy Thomas: Now, as I think Dee Dee said, you had people from the private sector as well as ministry and possibly government. I don't know. What is your mix? Without breaking any confidentiality. [00:02:41] Andrea Buczynski: We have a marketplace. It's a C suite largely, but it's academics.  I have to think for a minute. We have entrepreneurs, marketplace, nonprofit ministry. Yeah. [00:02:59] Tommy Thomas:  Was this something that's going on in other sectors and y'all modeled after somebody else or did somebody come up with this idea and said we need to do this. [00:03:11] Andrea Buczynski: The one who founded the organization is Diane Ogle. She'd be a good interview. She had done something like this some years back and while she was living here in Orlando as part of the Christian Chamber and she had a number of men approach her and say, I think you need to do something for women. And so, she had this idea. She shared it with a few people. And I think one of the first people she shared it with said, I think it's a great idea. Could I be in it?  By the time I came, there were probably five or six women already in the group. I couldn't tell you any more than that part of it. [00:03:54] Andrea Buczynski: But what I've loved about it, Tommy, is the advice that fits the kind of role that you have. And so, in Cru, I don't want to use the word complaining, but let's say I was talking about being tired or I can't stop working, very common with high achieving anybody is where is that switch to turn off? In the evening, most people in and even on my team would say you need a vacation, or you need to take some time off and it'll be better. I had the vacation. I had the time off. That was not the point. I got to this group and at one of the very first meetings, a woman just looked at me, there was someone else sharing the same struggle, and I echoed, I said, you could be reading my journal. And she just looked at the two of us and she said, this is what got you where you are, this very quality. [00:04:51] Andrea Buczynski: And she said, you have to manage it because it's not going away. It's hardwired in you. And so how are you going to manage it? And we got into a whole discussion about what that might look like. And you can begin to see the difference in there's a recognition of the kinds of things that you're dealing with that makes it just more than collegial. It's kindred spirits. [00:05:16] Tommy Thomas: As I said earlier, you've had a long and storied career with Cru, and you've seen society change, you've seen culture change. Everybody's got an opinion on cell phones and social media. Give us some insight on the college campus today and then with the workforce, because you've got 22 and 24 and younger people in your workforce.  Maybe not reporting to you, but in your department. [00:05:43] Andrea Buczynski: Yeah, it's really interesting to change the dynamic of the whole availability of information I think has had a big effect on organizational leadership. So, when I was coming up our leaders would send us articles to read or something like that to enrich your thinking.  I loved it. I'm a learner at heart. And I thought, this is what leaders do. They help grow their people by exposing them to other ideas and then thinking through how this affects the ministry here at Cru. Somewhere, in the 90s, that began to change radically in that leaders were no longer the people who were dispensing information. [00:06:25] Andrea Buczynski: Information was widely available. I don't remember when Wikipedia came into things, but I do remember disposing of my mother's set of Collier encyclopedias, it was just like they're worthless now because it's not the latest edition and they stopped printing them at some point. So, with information being widely available no team member is dependent on their leader to help them find things. Everybody literally in conversation can just go, let me Google that and we'll figure out who wrote what the latest thought is or what that means. So, the effect on organizational leadership that I've seen is we used to train on how to do something. [00:07:13] Andrea Buczynski: And we still do. And then we began to lead in terms of what is it that we want to accomplish? What is the outcome? And that hasn't changed. But it's just what came first. Learn how to do this. And then I'll learn the big picture. Now the big picture and the how is readily available. The why is what people need to understand. So, when I look at that generational spread there's some people you could just tell them what to do and they will be automatically aligned to the organizational riverbanks that have been created. They understand them, but the new generation coming up, I think, does not have that background. [00:07:54] Andrea Buczynski: And you have to supply it. So, it's not just here's how you do what we do, or here's what we want to see happen, God willing. It's why would we do it this way and not that way? Because now you have a hundred possibilities available to you on Google or YouTube or TikTok. And so, I think organizational leaders have to be more mindful about ideation coming in from outside the organization that may not be lined up with the values or mission or vision of the organization. And it requires a little bit more let's say vigilance or a very good fluency in the why we do what we do and why we do it the way we do it. Do we answer more questions?  We answer more why questions now than we did previously. Does that make sense? [00:08:47] Tommy Thomas: I'm trying to process that. So how does that play out in terms of delivering content across the three or four generations? You probably don't have too many people our age, but you might, and then you go back to the next two or three generations. What have y'all learned about, delivering, maybe content is not the word I'm looking for, but, delivering what is your message? [00:09:12] Andrea Buczynski:  So there's some tension there. So, if I were talking about organizational communication, for example, across five generations, you always have to go, what is the topic? And why are we talking about it? And what's going to happen? Or and then how is it going to move forward? So, if you're introducing, say, organizational change, I think those are important things. People can live with a lot of ambiguity if they understand how you're moving forward. They don't have to have all the answers at once, right? [00:09:45] Andrea Buczynski: But if you're talking about training delivery then I'm looking at it going anybody under 35 is going to expect a mobile delivery. Can I get it on my phone, or can I get it on my iPad? People in my generation, I went to our help desk the other day and I said, I have to do an update on this software.  When I look at this screen that comes up, I'm totally confused. So, can you walk me through it? Like I need somebody, now that might just be me. [00:10:19] Tommy Thomas: I have that problem weekly, it seems like with apps and software. [00:10:26] Andrea Buczynski: I am not a digital native so mobile delivery may not be the best thing for my generation, they might still like a high touch delivery and then the spectrum in between those two. So, we've tried a bunch of things like every organization, the webinar format works for some things, and not for others. The in-person training works for some things and not for others, but we were surprised during COVID that we were able to convert some things that we thought needed to be face-to-face into being able to be done online if needed. And so, I think now if you're in a training kind of role, you have a pretty hefty toolbox. And being selective of what to do, but the move toward mobile has been interesting for me to observe with some of the people on my team who are younger who are like we choose this learning management system because it has mobile capability versus this management system, which requires you to be on a laptop or something. +++++++++++++++ [00:11:36] Tommy Thomas: Let's go back to the restructuring for a minute, you talked about this big restructuring project that y'all went through and you had stepped up to more of an international leadership role. What was behind that? How did y'all come to the decision that you needed to eliminate, a strata of leadership and was that a global decision? [00:11:57] Andrea Buczynski: We had a numerical goal for the year 2020. And so, we were coming up around somewhere in around 2017-2018 people started asking what's coming after 2020. And at the same time, we were seeing some organizational complications of the way we were structured. So, it's not uncommon in a matrix organization to have the tensions built either strategy versus geography or, you name it. We had a variety of those things where we could see obstacles in the structure that we weren't able to overcome with any kind of behavioral initiative, right? As we began to look at it we were also in a presidential transition. [00:12:48] Andrea Buczynski: We started to work on it. And then held up a little bit because of the presidential transition and then reactivated when the new president was involved. But basically, during those years what happened was an organizational design task force was put in place. We did, we started with a kind of strategy review, what have we accomplished over the last number of years. Where are we strong? Where are we not? What problems are we seeing that need to be solved? That kind of thing. That went to an organizational design task force. They came out with some preliminary ideas, but one of the best things they did was a survey and we had I'd say over 3,000 responses. And so, you had a fair amount of data, and it was around this idea of what is going well, what is not, what needs to change, what do you see lacking, what needs more attention. [00:13:48] Andrea Buczynski: And so, we got that back and we realized, okay we need fresh direction.  We need to reinvigorate people in some ways around the work that the Lord is calling us to do over this next time. And then I think it was a presidential decision to just go ahead with it. We had to go to the board because of the size of it. But the structure finally came back after two more iterations with two different groups of leaders. So, we had an onboarding thing for anybody coming into global leadership. We used that group to say, okay here's the results of these questions. [00:14:29] Andrea Buczynski: What do you think are the themes that are emerging from this data? We gave them the raw data and they came back with here are the things you need to pay attention to. We did the similar thing with a group of probably 40 to 50 international leaders more at the country level who came in for an emerging leader initiative and okay, these are the themes. How would you solve them? Okay. And listen to, I think five or six groups of presentations. So, we took all that under advisement, and came back with a structure. Our president defined strategic intent, whereas we need to go in the next 10 years and or in the next years, let's say. [00:15:17] Andrea Buczynski: And we determined a launch date and that was 14 months out from when I was charged with doing the people care task force. Eliminating the level enabled the key stakeholders, geography, strategy, and capacity to sit on the same team and work out our differences on that team, rather than in opposition to one another and blocking. So, it made for a much more collaborative leadership environment and, our muscle memory on the old system is having to be worked out of our system and gaining new habits and stuff like that. It's moving forward and at the same time you look at it and you go it has its own challenges like any structure does. [00:16:15] Tommy Thomas: And I'm going to draw a blank on his name but our friend, Dan, who with Cru is leading your multi organizational initiative on every campus. [00:16:23] Andrea Buczynski: Dan Allen. [00:16:24] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, Dan Allen. I keep up with Dan and some of the folks at InterVarsity and other groups. Tell me how that's going. I'm just such a huge fan of organizational collaboration of not having to always invent it here, wherever here is, have you observed that in any thoughts as sitting back at your desk and watching that work? [00:16:48] Andrea Buczynski: I just look at it and I'm struggling for the word because I think it's emerged from what used to be a competitive environment where we're a little bit more mission focused and a little less role focused, or individual organization focus like kingdom focus. How do we live out a kingdom perspective where we're not tunnel vision on our own organization, but we're looking at what God is doing and where are the opportunities for bigger synergies than what we're seeing right now. So, the initiative with Dan and Every Campus Partnership is just a huge example of that. [00:17:27] Andrea Buczynski: But there's also para church roundtables that exist in technology. In leader development in HR. I think in the finance side as well that has been going on for more than a decade. So that kind of shared environment. How are you dealing with this kind of thing helps us all grow. The other thing I'm involved with is Christian Leadership Alliance. But what I love about that is we have this community hubs on Christian Leadership Alliance, and I'm part of the People Care one, and it gets populated with questions, every other week, and people will weigh in do you, have you used this, can you tell me anything about it, or do you have this, or, can you share a form or a task list or something like that where people are helping one another. [00:18:25] Andrea Buczynski: I look at it and I go Steve Douglas, our late president used to say, we can give away what God has given to us because he will give us whatever we need. And so, we don't have to be super protective about it. It's going to benefit the kingdom. Then how do we look at it? I like that change. I feel like it's been a shift in the body of Christ over the last 10 or 20 years. It's been a good one. +++++++++++++++++++ [00:18:55] Tommy Thomas: Let's try to bring this thing to a close and I'll ask you, I framed this a lightning round. I'm not sure that they're always lightning round kind of questions, but let's hit a few of them. What do you understand about your life today that you didn't understand a year ago? [00:19:11] Andrea Buczynski: Maybe it's my age or the fact that I've experienced some losses, the fact that the past few years, every day is a gift. [00:19:20] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back and tell a younger version of yourself, one thing, what would it be? [00:19:28] Andrea Buczynski: Don't be intimidated. Everybody's figuring it out. Nobody knows what they're doing. [00:19:36] Tommy Thomas: If you're sitting beside a total stranger at a dinner party, how do you engage them in a meaningful conversation? [00:19:42] Andrea Buczynski: It would probably depend on the person and, how we know each other, but part of it if it's a total stranger, it would just be tell me a little bit about yourself and what is it you enjoy most about what you do and go from there. [00:19:58] Tommy Thomas: If you could meet any historical figure and ask them only one question, who would it be and what would the question be? [00:20:21] Andrea Buczynski: This is what's coming to mind right now. I would just say, I would want to ask Jesus, what was it like to sit at the table with the person that you knew would betray you, and that you knew would deny you? And wash their feet.  What was that like?  Yeah. I'm curious. [00:20:49] Tommy Thomas:  Anything that as we wrap it up you think back over what we've covered and I always tell my guests, treat this as if you had the podium at a nonprofit gathering, and you had a group of budding nonprofit leaders. Anything you would share as a closing comment? [00:21:15] Andrea Buczynski: Yes. I'd say, your heart matters. What's going on in your relationship with the Lord, what's going on in your character, who you are is more important than what you do. If people know you love them, they will give you a lot of grace. And so, I just look at it and I go, what kind of person do I want to show up as today? And do your best if you're believer to represent the Lord and to come with every resource He's given you. And if not, to go, can you be the person whose life is integrous, lives with integrity, do what you say you will do, mean what you say what you mean, keep your promises. ++++++++++++++++++++++ [00:22:08] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast. If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com.  Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable. Links & Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com   Follow Tommy on LinkedIn Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify

[00:00:00] Carl LaBarbera: I met a guy, Dick Berry, who was a professional in the Policy Governance arena. And once I took his class, I was convinced that this was what I needed to do board work. And the reason for that is because primarily my own work in aerospace industry, knowing that systems and procedures are essential to do any kind of job that's going to be effective. [00:00:26] Carl LaBarbera: And when Policy Governance was presented that's the kind of system that I was seeing. And so, a complete, scientific system with procedures and thinking about all the elements of governance was something I needed. [00:00:42] Tommy Thomas:  My guest today is Carl LaBarbera. I met Carl several years ago at his home in Southern California.  He was gracious to give me a couple of hours that afternoon, and we've maintained some loose contact with each other since then.  One of the areas of expertise he has is that of Policy Governance, and I've known that, from the afternoon I met him, so as I was thinking about more guests we could have in the area of board service, Carl was one of the ones I wanted to have, so thank you, Carl, for joining us this afternoon. [00:01:14] Carl LaBarbera: Thank you, Tommy. It's my pleasure to be here and look forward to our conversation. [00:01:19] Tommy Thomas: Before we dig too deep into Policy Governance, how did you get interested in or involved in nonprofit board service? [00:01:29] Carl LaBarbera: That goes back 40 years. So, it's interesting. I don't know how far back you want me to go. [00:01:37] Carl LaBarbera: I can go back to my childhood because my dad had a company in inner city LA which is a very difficult area. [00:01:48] Tommy Thomas: Back then, especially, [00:01:49] Carl LaBarbera:   When I was a very young child, I was 11 years old when the Watts Riots occurred. And my mother and I were driving into the business in South LA. [00:01:59] Carl LaBarbera: And the Watts Riots were underway. And my mom swears that a black woman flagged off attackers.  She was in front of us, and we were able to drive into the business, but we had no idea. The news was not like it is today.  We literally drove into it. So that obviously left a big impression on me as a kid. [00:02:22] Carl LaBarbera: And I've had a heart for the inner city ever since. And we continued, actually, my brother and I took over the business that my dad had started and in 1957 after the war and in continued in that Watts area, but then we were bought out by the freeway and moved just slightly south of there in an area in Linwood, which is still South LA [00:02:48] Carl LaBarbera:  So that connection of having a business in that community and actually knowing the neighbors in that community, in the Watts community, which was primarily African American gave me that heart. And then I was listening to Focus on The Family. I would wake up in the morning, six o'clock in the morning, with Focus on The Family on the radio. [00:03:09] Carl LaBarbera: And Dr. Dobson was talking with Keith Phillips, who is the founder of World Impact, and talking about Watts. And I thought to myself, wow, that's literally across the street. And so, I made a journey to introduce myself to World Impact. At the time it was a Canadian director who was leading that Watts ministry. [00:03:33] Carl LaBarbera: And we got to become good friends in our company partnered with World Impact to help the missionaries in the Watts community and help them in any way we can to support them in their ministry. [00:03:45] Tommy Thomas: Wow. That goes back a long way. [00:03:49] Carl LaBarbera: We're talking 1990s. Yeah. At the time I met him, it was late eighties or early nineties. [00:03:55] Tommy Thomas: Did you have any kind of mentorship relative to board service? Did you have a model or a role model? [00:04:03] Carl LaBarbera: I think, my interest in board work really began with our own company. That was the work that I love to do, having a 30,000-foot perspective, being able to work at that high level, conceptual level seeing all the pieces in an organization the teamwork necessary to make an organization successful. [00:04:25] Carl LaBarbera: I got a hunger for that level of leadership in our own company, but where I was introduced to Policy Governance was at the Christian Management Association. So, I was a member of the association, which was called the Christian Management Association. Now it's called Christian Leadership Alliance. [00:04:44] Carl LaBarbera: And I met a guy, Dick Berry, who was a professional in the Policy Governance arena. And once I took his class, I was convinced that this was what I needed to do board work. And the reason for that is because primarily my own work in the aerospace industry, knowing that systems and procedures are essential to do any kind of job that's going to be effective. [00:05:11] Carl LaBarbera: And when Policy Governance was presented that's the kind of system that I was seeing. And so, a complete, scientific system with procedures and thinking about all the elements of governance was something I needed. And then of course, serving with a friend from church who was an urban ministry leader when he started his nonprofit Urban Youth Workers Institute and asked me to join his board and chair his board, John Carver. [00:05:44] Carl LaBarbera: It was like, what do I use to run a board? Because there's really nothing other than best practice information as to how you actually chair and run a board, how you lead a board. And so that's why policy governance just rung a bell for me, and I knew it was something I had to learn and be very good at. ++++++++++++++++++++ [00:06:05] Tommy Thomas:  Get up at 50,000, 100,000 feet and look down. What's the primary purpose of the nonprofit board? One role of the Board is dealing with the risk factor.  Mitigating or at least evaluate risk to determine what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. [00:06:12] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, there is one, one primary purpose with two parts actually. And I can just simplify that to say get the mission done and stay out of trouble. So, there's two elements. And what we say, what we call mission, and we call ENDS is what benefit for what people at what worth. [00:06:33] Carl LaBarbera: So those three elements make up the mission or the ENDS. And then there's the risk factor. So, a board is there to mitigate risk or at least evaluate risk and to determine what's acceptable and what's not acceptable but that's the keeping the organization out of trouble part, right? [00:06:51] Carl LaBarbera: So, get the mission done, stay out of trouble. That's their primary purpose. And, but let me add that all that's done on behalf of someone. Especially in nonprofits, in a corporation, right? You are beholden to the shareholders. A board works on behalf of the shareholders. There are no shareholders in the nonprofit world, but what Carver was smart enough to know is that we're, the board is beholden to some, they don't own the organization, the CEO, the staff, they don't own the organization, who owns the organization? [00:07:25] Carl LaBarbera: In the church, we say Jesus owns it. Of course, he owns it all, but Jesus owns the organization, which is cool because he left us a whole book of values that we know that we are beholden to, that we need to comply with. But secondarily, there are owners or what we call care holders or stakeholders on the organization. [00:07:49] Carl LaBarbera: I could talk about the global church as owning a nonprofit. So, we need to be aware of the values of the global church. We could talk about those that the organization impacts. Not the beneficiaries so much, but the communities that would have an interest in the organization. So, when we determine who the owners are, the moral owners, we call them, who is interested in seeing this organization succeed, who is interested in the benefits that this nonprofit will bring. [00:08:24] Carl LaBarbera: And those are the people that we are beholden to, not in a democratic way, not like we're looking for them to give us majority rule direction, but in a way like a doctor or a lawyer would work in the best interest of their ownership. So, the client comes to the doctor. Obviously, the client knows something about their ailment, but the doctor knows more, they're an informed agent. [00:08:50] Carl LaBarbera: Or Robert Greenleaf would say a trustee. So, a trustee, their job is to follow the direction of the trust that is given to them. And that trust is the trust that the ownership holds. And so, the board is to determine what are those values and determine what is in the best interest of those stakeholders. [00:09:12] Carl LaBarbera:  That derives a whole set of policies, which then give direction to the organization. The role of the Board Chair is that of Chief Governance Officer – making sure that the Board accomplishes what is says it is going to do. [00:09:21] Tommy Thomas: Under this model, what's the primary role of the Board Chair? [00:09:25] Carl LaBarbera: The Board Chair is called the C.G.O. So Chief Governing Officer.  So, the Chief Governing Officer, the primary role really is to assure that the board accomplishes what it says it's going to do. In a sense, the chairman is a manager of the board itself to assure that whatever they said they were going to do, because they have a role, they have a job description, and to assure that they get that job done. But I'd also say that the chair is the interface or maybe the primary interface with the CEO. It's very important that chairman has a really solid relationship with the CEO, that there's a clear understanding that there's complete communication on both sides in order for that chairman to do his job well. [00:10:16] Tommy Thomas: Give me some words and phrases that maybe would describe the skillset that this chair needs to do his or her job well. [00:10:25] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, that really starts with character. Especially in a Christian organization, but any nonprofit really, but it's the character. So that's essential. I think essential elements are wisdom over a lot of experience, preferably humility is very important. I think a humble leader, a servant leader. So, I love Robert Greenleaf and all his writing on servant leadership, and I'm deeply indebted to Robert Greenleaf and his description of what a servant leader does. So that chairman really needs to be that servant leader like Jesus commanded. If you want to be a leader in the kingdom, you have to be the least of all. So that chairman serves the board, and they serve the CEO and they serve the organization. [00:11:13] Tommy Thomas: I know this would vary, but just from your experience, how often does the chair meet with the CEO to maintain this relationship and this esprit de corps? [00:11:25] Carl LaBarbera: World Impact is a good example. And Alvin Sanders, the CEO, and I have a standing meeting once a week on a Monday morning. And we try to communicate with one another on a regular basis just to have that regular flow of communication, what's going on in your world. What's going on from my perspective. And, of course, planning together what the agenda is going to be for the year and for the next meeting. All those things are critical and talking through what issues are important for the CEO to comply with the board policy manual. The board has created, in helping that process.  A lot of times I need to help educate the CEO in the process of Policy Governance. Because there are not a lot of Policy Governance experts out there. And yeah, you don't see that a lot. So, part of it is educating as well. [00:12:19] Tommy Thomas: When you get a new board member what's the best way to onboard this person? [00:12:25] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah. The first thing we do is provide the documents that we've created. So, it's really important for a new board member to understand the process, certainly. So, what is this process called Policy Governance? It's very different from what most people experience. I think I know beyond several boards that many board members want to show up and display their wisdom and their good decision-making skills. And that's really not, that's not what the board is all about. We want that, certainly, but the board needs to understand the process. The beauty of Policy Governance is that all of the things that need to be known are in a policy, a board policy manual, and that manual is less than 30 pages, and it covers all four aspects of what we would call the policy circle regarding CEO role the board role, the chairman role the interaction between the board and the CEO what the mission is and what the limitations are, the things that we can't do as an organization, even if they worked, things illegal or unbiblical. A good Board Policy Manual provides invaluable information for new Board members.  This manual is usually less than 30 pages. So that board policy manual really provides invaluable information to anyone coming on board gives them all the information they need. They're not going to get it all in the first read through, but all the information is there, and they can study that. And the other thing we do is, obviously we want them to know what the bylaws are and what the expectations are in terms of meetings, etc. So, it's really just a quick update getting board members up to date on where we've been, where we're going, and how we operate. [00:14:14] Tommy Thomas: Let me ask you to get you to respond to this quote about a board service. Somebody said, “You need a director on a board who will be a pleasant irritant, someone who will force people to think a little differently. That's what a good board does.” [00:14:29] Carl LaBarbera: I love that because one of the things I strive for is called healthy, I call it healthy conflict. There's probably a better word than conflict, healthy discussion, which means we really want honest feedback from all our board members. So having that, and we definitely have those. A good irritant is someone who really is just thinking through. They're thinking from their perspective, and they're offering their perspective, and we need to hear it. Even if it's opposed to the direction that, we think we need to go, we need to know who was it that talked about Ruth Haley Barton. She talked about working together, finding God's will together. And you really need in teams, and I think it's any team, but including a board team, you need to know what the no people are saying. If someone's really objecting to where we're going, it's pertinent on us to determine what God is saying to that person. Why are they adamantly opposed? And if we don't take the time to figure that out, then we're neglecting our duty. As a board, so not again, obviously, you don't always achieve consensus, but I've been in situations on boards where we have worked it through taking some time and ultimately say there are two people that maybe don't agree, but they relent and say, we will submit to the wisdom of the board. And of course, one of the principles of Policy Governance is that we speak with one voice. After all the discussion and we finally get to the end of the day and we vote and some have to acknowledge that we don't agree, but we are going to speak with one voice when we're done with our work.  So that's critical. ++++++++++++++++++++++ [00:16:23] Tommy Thomas: Your thoughts on bringing younger people in their thirties and forties onto a nonprofit board? [00:16:30] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, I would love to see that.  And I would love to see young people have that interest. My experience has been that young people aren't the younger generation, millennials, maybe is my experience aren't as interested in what they might consider business-like work. So, say in a church setting, right? Or even in a Christian ministry setting, this is a business job in which I really have a problem with that because I'm a firm believer that God owns it all that he works through business and churches and our ministry happens in all realms of life, right? But that kind of perspective is, yeah, I don't want to be involved in that kind of business process, but every time I've seen young people engage in the process, it is so helpful. So, I would be a big fan. Where do we find them? I have seen them in the governance organization governed for impact, which I'm a fellow with, and we have seen their young people take a real interest in governance. And when they do, then it's highly valuable. We need their perspective, right? This is where the world's going. [00:17:49] Tommy Thomas: For sure. [00:17:51] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah. We need millennial perspective. We need Z perspective. Yeah, I value that. I wish we could get more of it. [00:17:59] Tommy Thomas: I run into this a lot in my work and has to do with the past CEO being a member of the board when, when you bring a new CEO on, your thoughts just from so many years of experience that you've had any observations there. It can be very difficult when a retiring CEO, especially a founder wants to remain as an emeritus Board Member.  That can restrict the ability of the new CEO to make mistakes and/or go in a different direction if that's what the organization needs. [00:18:14] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, that's tough. I've seen that in churches. I've seen it, I've seen it in other nonprofits. It's just, it's very difficult because when a CEO, who's especially a founder, CEO or a founding pastor and wants to be an emeritus board member or emeritus leader, even that really restricts the ability of that new CEO to be free to make mistakes and go in a different direction to bring their unique skill set because each leader has a unique skill set and they should be allowed to use that. And so I just, I see it often doesn't work out very well. And you hear the phrase that you don't want to be the next guy. You want to be the guy after the next guy. Because oftentimes that first guy is still hanging around and influencing where it's going. And that could be debilitating. [00:19:06] Tommy Thomas: This is probably in your Policy Governance manual but tell us about CEO evaluation. [00:19:13] Carl LaBarbera: That's an ongoing process. So, it is not a once-a-year process, although we do a summarized once-a-year process, but in the board policy manual the policies pertain particularly to the CEO or the executive director or the lead pastor. Those things that are called the Ends. So those are what benefits for what people at what worth. And then there are the executive limitations. And there are quite a few of those limitations, as I said before, that are not allowed, even if they work, because they're illegal or biblical or other reasons. And so, we constantly have a calendar of monitoring. So there's a very specific process of monitoring those limitations, how that CEO is complying with the limitations, and how they're complying with the accomplishment of the mission or the end. And so that's done, I think the Ends probably are mostly done on a biannual basis, but the executive limitations as I said, on a calendar, they're done every meeting.  We're evaluating some aspects of that CEO's performance. [00:20:30] Tommy Thomas: So, under Policy Governance, do you use closed session or executive session a lot? Or is that not a part of the M.O. [00:20:40] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, no, not a lot at all. These are, there's nothing that is considered, not transparent unless there's something to do with, specific HR issues or something where it would be a problem legally, but otherwise now I believe in transparency. I believe this, everything we do at the board level should be transparent. I know as I chaired or on the executive committee at our church, everything we do there should be transparent to our membership. But it's, we do have, I know at World Impact, there is a session at the end of the year where we look at all the policy governance elements that either were complied or not complied with, but then we also get a little more personal and try to talk about their spiritual life, their personal life how, the communication with the board. So those are, those get to be touchy conversations, but necessary because that's part of the board's job is really to assure it's one of three responsibilities the board can't delegate. And that is to assure the success of the CEO and thus the organization. [00:21:57] Tommy Thomas: On strategic planning, from your perspective, how deep should the board get into that, or is that something that the CEO and his or her cabinet brings to the board? [00:22:08] Carl LaBarbera:  I'd like to think of strategic planning as a continuum of planning, right? When we do the ENDS work, the ENDS, again, are the high-level mission. It's what benefit, what people, at what worth. That is, that's the highest level of the strategic planning process. The board can get more specific about that policy of ENDS or mission, but then they stop. The job of the board is to stop communicating at the point which they're willing to allow any reasonable interpretation of that mission, right? It's hard work to determine that. So, trying to determine what it is that the board has to say to a CEO about the mission, but then allow freedom for him to have any reasonable interpretation or any strategic plan that can accomplish those ENDS.  That's the delicate part of developing that particular set of policies. It takes a lot of wisdom, prayer, and determination. You don't want to say too much because if the board is saying too much and prescribing too much, then that is not allowing our professional CEO to do their job well. ++++++++++++++++ [00:23:30] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to something that happened in mine and your era. People younger than us may not remember this, but certainly we do - the Enron scandal. And although they weren't a nonprofit, I'm sure there are things a nonprofit board can learn from that. But one of the writers that did some analysis there, his perspective was that probably the board didn't ask the tough questions that they needed to ask.  How do you get that done in a nonprofit? [00:23:58] Carl LaBarbera: Absolutely. And the way we get it done is through the policy manual. In the manual itself, in those executive limitations, we're asking the hard questions up front. There are limitations regarding financials. There are limitations regarding asset protection. There are limitations regarding staff. There are limitations regarding the relationship with the CEO to the board and all these things, safety issues. So that is the role of the board, is to think through. And Carver was genius about this in a scientific way. He thought through a dozen different categories of risk that the board needs to think about ahead of time. And of course, you're not going to think about all risks that can happen, especially today. It's so hard to figure out what's going to come at you at a pretty hard and rapid pace, but for the most part, to think in general, in a systematic way, what are all the risks that an organization might encounter? And to think about that in a systematic way and do it ahead of time and have those boundaries in place, which then provides the CEO freedom to do anything else. The beauty of policy governance is it lays out the boundaries of acceptability, like a football field and says, you have to stay within these parameters, within these limits, within the rules that we've outlined. You could do anything else to achieve your end if they haven't already been stated. So it's empowering to the CEO. It gives freedom to the CEO. It gives them freedom to make mistakes. But does provide those boundaries, which is clear communication between the board and the CEO. [00:25:45] Tommy Thomas: Go back to the Board Chair for a minute.  So you got but the two or three questions that I like to ask that, that I think the answers are good and one of them is, you get all the high power, which you want people that have got experience in making tough decisions dealing with complexity, dealing with risk But sometimes it's difficult for the, for those people to take the CEO hat off when they walk into the boardroom and become a member of the whole. Have you experienced that in recruiting board members and how have you effectively coached them into good board service? [00:26:19] Carl LaBarbera: So, are you asking, I just want to be clear, you're asking about those who have been or are CEOs that now become a part of the board, that kind of leader? [00:26:29] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, they're probably still the CEO in their organization and they've got an expertise that you need on the board. [00:26:34] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, exactly. Now that is a difficulty because, CEOs by nature are built to want to do strategy and make decisions and get things done. That is not the job of the board. And so, they really have to, and that's one of those characteristics of a good board members, you need to really set aside maybe your own leadership gifts to allow yourself to be a part of this team who is now going to operate from a 30,000 foot perspective, not at the operational level. Under Policy Governance, the Board's role is governance – not management.  That is a critical element of governance. Because that's not where we work. We are governance is not management. That is a critical element of governance. It is not management. We shouldn't be doing management work. We have professional CEOs that we've hired. We feel that the board members should be as professional as the CEO. Why shouldn't they be as trained and have as much expertise about their job that the CEO has about hs or her job and but to do that job and not someone else's right that there's another training element that high level leaders just need to be trained that this, you are not operating the organization. We are governing the organization. And that's a big difference. You're taking your leadership.  Your directive often becomes a trustee, which is a different role. [00:28:03] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned the CLA for people who might be members. There are people that might be Christian organizations. What about your standard, other kind of nonprofit? Where might they get this kind of training? Are there seminars or Policy Governance training that one could attend or sign up for? [00:28:23] Carl LaBarbera: Absolutely. I belong to the Govern for Impact Association.  They have an annual conference, and they have sessions throughout the year as well. And it's been a great place for me to really learn the process. It's a complex process and it should be.  They have classes, they have seminars, they have this conference once a year. There is training, future board members and chairmen, chair, chairwomen, chairpersons to do this work. And the interesting thing, this organization, started originally with the Carvers and those who are Carver-trained and but now has become this international organization, literally. And actually has been participating in in Europe to develop ISO standards. I was in the aerospace industry, everything we did, especially for government and military work had to be done to international standards or Boeing standards or Lockheed's or McDonnell Douglas standards. So now Policy Governance has been embedded in an ISO standard for governance, what we're hoping to see is that will trickle down and that will become expected of boards to adhere to a set of, international best standards. Policy Governance will be included, and will be a framework for that. [00:29:49] Tommy Thomas: What advice are you giving somebody who comes to you and said they've been approached by an organization to serve on their board? What questions are you telling them to ask? [00:30:00] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I guess I would warn them or ask them. They should know everything about that organization and how it operates that they can. And one of those things would be to see if there is Policy Governance in place. Just obviously, if you want to read the bylaws, to read those governing documents that will affect their role because the worst thing that can happen is someone get on a board and have to spend so much time and tedium and making decisions that are management decisions. When I first began serving with our church, there was an old process developed over many years where you had elders who each one represented an area of ministry in the church, and then they would come together as an elder board as a governing board. And then each 1 would be reporting out from their area of ministry which could be a dozen different ministries. And so, you have 20 people on a board and you are spending hours and hours listening and thinking about things that you really shouldn't be thinking about. That is not your job. And so, I definitely would not want to be a part of that board. And I would advise others not to be a part of that board. If the organization is not clear about that. The board's role in their job. I wouldn't advise being a part of that board. [00:31:34] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast. Tommy Thomas: If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com.  Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising. Tommy Thomas: If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.   Links & Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO Christian Leadership Alliance Govern for Impact Robert K. Greenleaf Center for Servant Leadership Ruth Haley Barton World Impact   Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Follow Tommy on LinkedIn   Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts

I imagine, if you listened to the past two episodes on ambiguous loss, you've done some challenging thinking about your own challenges and losses.Today will be an encouraging time, I believe. You will hear a recording from me, a message I gave at Christian Leadership Alliance about the transformation God did in me over the years of our prodigal journey. Judy's Resources:Read Way-of-Life Practices: https://tinyurl.com/3z73vybhJoin the Prayer for Prodigals community here: https://bit.ly/3uyhSWQSign up for Judy's monthly newsletter here: https://bit.ly/39TBlYtPurchase a copy of the When You Love a Prodigal book for you or a loved one here: https://amzn.to/3RuiUx9Stay connected:Website: judydouglass.com/podcastFacebook: facebook.com/JudyDouglass417Instagram: instagram.com/judydouglass417Twitter: twitter.com/judydouglass417Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/judyddouglass/YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/c/JudyDouglass

#alwaysaway #slulead #outcomesconference Tami Heim has been the president and CEO of Christian Leadership Alliance since January 2012. Her professional career includes executive leadership experience in the technology, marketing, publishing and retail industries. She has served as a partner in The A Group – Brand Development, executive vice president and chief publishing officer for Thomas Nelson Publishers, and as the president of Borders, Inc. Email: Tami.Heim@ChristianLeadershipAlliance.org Website: http://blog.christianleadershipalliance.org/

Ken Harrison serves as the volunteer Chairman & CEO of Promise Keepers. He is also the CEO of WaterStone, which helps Christian donors give away $2 million weekly for God's Kingdom. A sought after speaker and author, his latest book is titled, A Daring Faith in a Cowardly World: Live a Life Without Waste, Regret, or Anything Unfinished, which the Christian Leadership Alliance recently named as its 'Book of the Year.'Find Ken online at https://kenrharrison.com/Host: Rodney CoxEmail us at information@ministryinsights.comTweet us at @Insights_IntlFollow us on LinkedInFollow us on FacebookThe podcast is a production of Ministry Insights. Visit us at ministryinsights.com.© 2023 Ministry Insights International, Inc. All rights reserved.

Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with Scott Brill, the Chief Financial Officer at Young Life, and Mark Tjernagel, the CFO for Cru. These two seasoned CFOs have given us a behind-the-scenes look at the role of the Chief Financial Officer and a nonprofit organization and how that role is changed over the years.  Mark brings a perspective of having worked for Cru his entire adult life and is the longest-serving CFO that Cru has ever had. Scott began his career in the private sector with Target Corporation and joined Young Life a little over five years ago as their CFO. Let's pick up the conversation where we left off last week. [00:00:43] Tommy Thomas: Take me a little bit into getting maybe a little more toward the accounting and finance piece of this, because I know our listeners, I want them to hear about that piece. Tell me a little bit about the size of your teams, and so you both work for two of the largest Parachurch Ministries, at least in the United States, probably in the world. Both of you are international. Tell me about your teams.  Scott, what does that look like at Young Life?  [00:01:09] Scott Brill: Yeah, so I have the financial services teams plus administrative and legal risk management teams. The financial services team is, 40 to 50 people. And that's really a lot of hourly people focused on income processing, the donation activity, accounts payable, all of our P card activity that's associated with that and is used throughout all of the U.S. and many countries in the world and then, our core accounting teams which are fewer people, but support accounting for all of our consolidated Young Life missions across the world. And we're in 102 countries. Not all of those are consolidated, but we're doing ministry work in 102 different countries. [00:01:57] Mark Tjernagel: So, for me, our structure is a little bit different than Young Life. I have a team of about 75 people based out of Orlando, largely. Doing everything from the typical financial services that you would think of, but also internal audi. Cru is made up of many ministry divisions and many of your listeners have probably heard of the Jesus Film Project or Family Life or the Campus Ministry. Those are all parts of Cru. So, Cru is a lot like an umbrella. With all of these things under it, each of the heads of finance for all of those divisions also reports on my team, so there are about 75 of those people, that I directly give leadership to then indirectly, there's probably another 75 to 100 people that either, you know, in related departments, but they don't report to me or that are out within our divisions. And so they report more indirectly as opposed to directly to me. But it's a pretty good-sized team. We have a lot of great folks working in finance.  [00:03:01] Tommy Thomas: How much of the job takes an accounting mind, and how much of it takes a finance mind? And I think I do know the difference between those two functions.  [00:03:11] Scott Brill: Yeah, you're talking about our jobs? Yeah, the CFO role. I would say it's predominantly the leadership and more of the financial mind is way more prominent than the accounting. There are a lot of CFOs who've never done accounting, and don't have accounting degrees, right? They have an MBA and an engineering undergrad, right? And I think at that, at this level, you have a good controller who has to firmly understand all of the accounting, but many CFOs don't have that. [00:03:44] Mark Tjernagel:  Yeah, I came up through accounting, right? I started in accounting. That was my track to be in the CFO. That's a little heavier in terms of my experience than the finance side, what we would call treasury management, but certainly, once you get to this, the level of CFO, I don't do any journal entries, I'll interact with the partner from the auditing firm that's auditing Cru. Most of my time is not on the technical. It's on the relational side and the leadership side. [00:04:12] Mark Tjernagel: And I have to understand what's happening with accounting, right? It's certainly that. But most of my time is not on the technical. It's on the relational side and the leadership side. But I would say this, I think if I'm trying to really dig deeper into where your question was going there. As a CFO, I do spend more time thinking about things like debt and investments and liquidity, and cash flow. Things like that, which tend to be more the finance side, the treasury function, then I do thinking about strategies for how we're managing the accounting for a film project or something like that. I have people that are really good at that, and they do it, and they report it up to me, but I tend to be involved a little bit more on the liquidity and the treasury side.  [00:05:03] Tommy Thomas: Obviously, Scott, you've had a longer tenure in the private sector. So you might draw from that and, Mark, you obviously are from a nonprofit. But to both of you, how has the CFO role changed over the last 20 years? [00:05:19] Mark Tjernagel: I wasn't the CFO, you know in the 80's, so I don't know what it was like back then, but I'll speak for myself, what I'm seeing now, is it requires communication skills and it requires relation, abilities to build relationships. There's so much technical, so many people in the ministry, in the nonprofit setting, that don't understand like the super technical finance things, right? And frankly, don't even care about them. They just want to know can I do it and I do what God's called me to do. And so the ability to translate, to simplify, to take a really complex matter and just to be able to present it in less than 60 seconds, and then to say to a Board, you know to our Board or to leadership, hey, here are the things that we should be concerned about, and being able to say it really simply. Communication skills are vital for the nonprofit CFO. You have to be able to communicate well. [00:06:13] Mark Tjernagel: So, communication skills are just vital for CFOs. Now, maybe it was like that in the eighties, but I know right now that's the life of a CFO and a nonprofit. You have to be able to communicate well. [00:06:37] Scott Brill: Yeah, I agree. And that evolution has, the role has tended to get more strategic and forward-looking.  You report on what the results were and you share that with everybody. Make sure everybody knows how they did financially.  It's much more about how you are partnering and working with people to change and improve results going forward. +++++++++++++++++++ [00:06:56] Tommy Thomas: In both of your organizations, what does your interface with the board look like?  [00:07:02] Mark Tjernagel: For me, I attend all the board meetings. My team does the presenting. We have two financial-related committees, an audit committee, and what we call an investment committee. And so we're putting the materials together, we're doing the presentations, we're framing out the issues we need decisions on for the board. So as the CFO, I personally interact with the chairman of those committees. Make sure they have what they need ahead of time. So, there's a lot of personal interaction with board members. Whenever the board meets, they always have dinner. And members of management are able to go and interact with them in that way. So there's a personal relationship with the board members, but there's also a kind of a real formal role that we play as well in presenting to the board. [00:07:56] Scott Brill: We have a finance committee that basically does the presentations to the finance committee at each of the board meetings and shares that with the entire board during the executive session. And then we have an investment committee. That's a subset of the finance committee and I chair the investment committee. So, we're actively integrated with the board on keeping them up-to-date and involved in our financial performance.  [00:08:25] Tommy Thomas: You guys have the privilege of probably working with fairly sophisticated boards. I know some of your board members from each of your organizations. If you were teaching at CLA or somewhere, what kind of counsel are you giving the CFOs on how to interact with their boards, and how to keep them informed? [00:08:47] Mark Tjernagel: One of the most important concepts, and look, I serve on a lot of boards and at Cru, I don't serve on the Cru board. I help our board as a member of management, but then I serve on a lot of other boards. One of the most important concepts to remember for people is that the board has a distinct role and it's not management. Like management has a role. The board has a role. And there's a lot of trouble when the board tries to manage and run the organization or when management tries to or fails to run the organization and basically keeps going to the board to tell them what to do all the time. So keeping those roles separate, I think is really important where you, so for example, one of my previous bosses told me, and it's been a lesson I've always remembered is Don't ask the Board what to do. Present to the Board your proposal of what you'd like to do. If they don't like it, they'll tell you. Don't ask the board what to do, present to the board your proposal of what you'd like to do. If they don't like it, they'll tell you, but don't go to the board and say we've got this issue, we're not sure what to do, what do you guys think? Go to the board and say we've got this issue. Management has worked through a process. We would like to propose this course of action. And we're seeking the Board's approval on management taking this action. And so, it emphasizes that separation between the Board, that's governing these trustees that are governing the organization, and management, which is running the organization. [00:10:17] Scott Brill: One of my first interactions with nonprofit boards, that was the conversation. Is this a governing board or a fundraising board? Never is the conversation, is it a managing board?  The Board should be focused on fundraising or governance or some combination of both. And that's the advice I would give them is exactly following up on Mark's. [00:10:39] Scott Brill: Continue to use them for governance purposes and fundraising purposes.  [00:10:44] Tommy Thomas: What role does the board have in risk management, if any, and if not, how does your office help mitigate risk? [00:10:56] Scott Brill: I think that's one of their principal duties, right? As a governing board, they are charged with evaluating the risk relative to the nonprofit, focused, in our case, our ministry. And where are risks appropriate to take relative to the value of the ministry? And where do we need to have risk mitigation strategies in place?  To mitigate the risk to the broader global ministry. [00:11:23] Mark Tjernagel: Yeah. I totally agree. It's fundamental to the board's role to evaluate what we would call enterprise risk at that level to hold management accountable to that evaluation and provide the information that they need to perform their role in assessing that risk. Risk management reports to me, and they do an assessment of risk and so forth, all of that, but a lot of that ends up being, like the insurance component, how we're transferring risk outside or what we're holding inside and what we're using the captive for and what we're just buying in the regular markets, that's more of the kind of the insurance side, the risk role for the board is broader than the insurance side. It's reputational risk and it's, it's all those things as well. ++++++++++++++++++++++ [00:12:16] Tommy Thomas: Let's go back to your team for a minute. When some people would think about accounting and finance, somehow creativity and innovation might not be in the same sentence.  How do you lead your staff in creativity and innovation without getting too far afield from ones and zeros? [00:12:36] Mark Tjernagel: There are things you can be creative in and then things you shouldn't be creative in. Controls how your transactions process and function. There are a lot of aspects of the finance function that are a little more set. But when it comes to things like how are you supporting decision-making? How are you analyzing your data? And Scott talked earlier about the finance function has evolved from reporting history more towards helping to set the path for the future. There's a lot of creativity in how you think about your data. I can't give you the exact example, but I'll give you a general example. Right now, we have a board meeting next week and even now we're finalizing kind of what's the story behind a lot of the data we're looking at with this certain aspect of our donation and our staffing models and what that means and how then might that impact what we do in the future? So, there's creativity in that. It's not, we're not artists or anything like that, but I will say this. It's not just accounting and finance majors working in finance, right? We have a lot of people that don't have those degrees, and one of the degrees that I have found has been super helpful are economics degrees, because economists, that's what they do. They're really looking at data and they're trying to interpret things and say what in essence is really happening. And, that mindset and that thinking is really helpful for us in finance as well. Two words that I never like hearing together are creative and accounting.  That's not a place where I like to have people doing too much creativity. [00:14:08] Scott Brill: Two words that I never like hearing together are creative and accounting.  That's not a place where I like to have people doing too much creativity.  For me, it comes down to asking why. When I joined Young Life five years ago the controller would tell you after the first three months of coming in, he started to come in with, okay, I'm going to start with, here's the why. And that really drives the, wait, I'm thinking about this differently. I'm not sharing you. This is what we do. This is how it's been done in the past; this is the result of that. It's the, okay, why are we doing this? Why are we looking at this? That helps you start thinking okay, like now I can think about how I want that work going forward, which sparks the creativity. Oh, I get to change how this is working. How should it work going forward?  [00:15:02] Tommy Thomas: What's the most ambitious project you or your department has taken on and how did it come out?  [00:15:13] Scott Brill: I'll go first. We're in the middle of it. I don't know how it's going to come out. But we're implementing Workday to replace Lawson as our general ledger software package.  It's going to include human resources and a lot more of the typical enterprise infrastructure. So I did not want to do that. But we didn't have a choice because Lawson is no longer going to be supported. I'm going to foreshadow that it's going to come out great or you're going to die trying one of the two, like those system projects are a bear, like they just are. [00:15:50] Mark Tjernagel: I'll take a little bit different angle and I'll say this. When I took over the leadership of the finance team, I think it's safe to say it was in disarray. We had a very low tenure. We had high turnover rates. There was a lot of pressure that we were understaffed. And so there's a lot of pressure to get stuff done. And it wasn't a very fun place to work. And one of the first things I did was I gathered a small group of leaders and I just said, all right we've got to figure out how to make this a better place to work. Like, how do we change a culture and, it's not going to happen overnight, but what do we do? And we worked a lot together. We didn't get an answer. The answer didn't just come to us in the first meeting. We collaborated and we prayed. We did a lot of activity, put a lot of effort into how we change the culture, and tried out different things that worked, some worked great, some didn't work so great, the theme of what really worked well and undergirded a transformation to which what I would say now is, we do have a great culture now in the finance function. We tried to change towards just really leading with our values. We have the values within Cru of faith, growth, and fruitfulness. My team added a fourth value called community, because we really needed to work on that. And we just, we said, what does that mean? The slogan for the wall, but what does it actually mean? How do we do that? How do we infuse within how we lead the value of faith? What does it mean to have a value of faith, the value of faith if you're in finance and what does growth mean for us as professionals and as missionaries and as, doing our work unto the Lord? And if we really value fruitfulness, how do we do our schedule in our everyday lives? And that was daunting because finance just stunk. Nobody wanted to work there. So I would say that was probably the biggest scary thing that we took on. And thankfully, looking right now, we're always growing and learning and changing, but it's much, much better than it used to be. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ [00:18:05] Tommy Thomas: If I had the privilege of traveling to Orlando and then out to Colorado here in the next couple weeks, and you let me attend one of your staff meetings, and at some point, we ask you to leave the room and you left me alone with your staff, first, what would they say would be the most difficult thing about working for you? [00:18:25] Tommy Thomas: And on the flip side, what do you think they'd say would be the most rewarding aspect of working for you?  [00:18:32] Mark Tjernagel: I'll let Scott go first on that one.  [00:18:37] Scott Brill: You mean what I want them to say? You're asking what they're going to say. What they tell me they would say is... the hardest thing is I don't let things slide. If I ask them why we're in a meeting today and it's why is this, different here? And they're like, Oh. I'm not sure why. And they're like, Oh, hard to believe we actually ran through this ahead of time together and yeah, we're stuck on this, this why. And so that is what I think they would say is I'm always like finding the little discrepancies or, and I'm always looking for, why does this make sense or why care about this? I think that the thing that I hear that they enjoy the most is that I'm forthright, I tell them exactly what I'm thinking or, what I'm seeing. And so they know where they stand on an initiative or what they're doing, with their team and what I think about it, but I let them do it. One of my better coaching moments was with somebody who worked for me. I was like, you need to stop telling your team what to do. Then you can ask questions about why they're doing something a way, but don't tell them to do it differently. Let them figure out why they should be doing it differently. Otherwise, you're not getting commitment to what you're doing. You're just getting compliance with the methodology you are forcing upon them. [00:20:07] Mark Tjernagel: The hard part of working for me is similar, high expectations, right? And it's not necessarily demanding excellence.  There can never be a fault, but just really demanding high expectations and pushing people to do things beyond what they think they can do.  I think the thing they might say that they appreciate the most about me is they know I have their back and I will go to bat for them. I will take the blame.  On their behalf, I'll try to shield them from a lot of the politics and the things that happen up in the other realm of the organization and defend them a lot.  [00:20:51] Tommy Thomas: You guys appear to be on the screen here, probably 10 to 15 years my junior. But I want to ask you a question about supervising generations. So, you may have some boomers on your team, you may have some Gen Xers, you may have some Millennials, and you might even have some Gen Z people. What have you noticed about the difference in the way you, I'll use the word, manage and or lead?  [00:21:20] Mark Tjernagel: I wish I was better at this. I don't know that I'm great. I think there are certainly different ways that we interact. I will interact with different generations, not playing favorites with one or the other. Some of our older staff are more experienced and mature staff. There's one gentleman in particular who I remember when I asked him, I challenged him to a different role because I wanted him to have something that was less intense than the work that he had, but that could allow him to work for a longer period. And so just working with him on that. But I think I'd say this across generations. People are still motivated by a few things. And I think one of them is knowing that the work that they're doing is important. And that they are seen and valued and so whether you're a brand-new staff member or an intern. I had we have some interns work in the summer. We took them out to lunch earlier this week, But then I've got people that are in their 70s still, you know working full-time jobs with us and everybody is the same. They want to know that their work matters and that they matter. And so how I can communicate that sometimes you can communicate differently to different generations, but it's that similar message. [00:22:48] Scott Brill: And the generational groupings are helpful when you're doing mass research and really understanding okay, what's changing with the thousands of kids that are showing up at a Young Life camp and what's happening out there? When you're dealing with teams of 50 you should be dealing with them as individuals within your leadership team. And I have somebody who's 26 years old but has a lot more of the characteristics of a boomer. Don't treat them like, oh, you're Generation Z and I need to give you this and treat you this way. You should be tailoring your leadership to the individuals on your team.  And I think that's really the focus, from a leadership standpoint, I think the generational consistencies help you with the big broad strokes on, do you have to have more digital community environments available? [00:23:45] Scott Brill: Yes. Will that continue to grow? Yes. But don't put that on everybody just because of their age group.  +++++++++++++++++++++++++ [00:23:54] Tommy Thomas: What was the most important lesson you think you learned during the pandemic that you'll take forward?  [00:24:02] Scott Brill: We can get work done without having everybody physically in the same office.  [00:24:08] Tommy Thomas: And you think y'all will continue that as you move forward? [00:24:13] Scott Brill: Yes, I think we've learned where that can be done just as efficiently, sometimes more efficiently and where it can't. So, I think, going forward, we'll be able to have that better balance of, hey, these things can happen very easily remotely, and these teams can be much more geographically diverse and still be very productive.  These functions and these activities require a lot more physical presence to be as. [00:24:45] Mark Tjernagel: I would say I totally agree, and I'll add something that's going to sound contradictory. But I think it's true as well, which is the importance of personal face-to-face interaction, right? We can get so much more work done differently now, and we learned how to do that in a hybrid setting. But man, we also found how important it is that our people get together and have time and opportunities to interact with one another. And not everybody wants it, some people crave it and some people don't, but everybody needs a dose of it. And so finding ways you can balance that is going to be really important going forward. [00:25:27] Scott Brill: I totally agree that's the hardest thing going forward is how you keep that connected, the team environment. So you might be just as productive, but if you don't feel like you're part of a team and you're very connected to people as individuals, that will show up in retention. I agree with you, Mark. It's not contradictory at all. It's what you need to do to make it sustainable. [00:25:56] Tommy Thomas: I've always been a big believer in non-profits working together and ministries working together. And I know you guys have this off-site thing that the different levels of leadership within multiple parachurch ministries do. Tell us about that and, what does the CFO conclave look like? [00:26:18] Mark Tjernagel: Sure. Our predecessors have been meeting for years. Sometimes the organizations will have a COO, sometimes a CFO, that attends. So, I did actually, our COO attended for a long time and I just started attending a few years ago. But yeah, there are several parachurch organizations. We get together usually twice a year and we spent about a couple of days together and honestly, a lot of times, we'll talk about some technical issues, how we're dealing with things, but a lot of times it's just great to get together with a peer from another organization and just be able to because the people that can relate to the challenges and the struggles and the things you're going through. Those times have been really rich and rewarding for me. [00:27:09] Scott Brill: Yeah, it was super helpful for me because coming from a for-profit public corporation world and moving into faith-based ministry, I learned a lot in those first sessions from the different ministries. Here are the challenges, oh, wait, that's the same thing I'm hearing from my team. Where are you already gone through this? And it was super valuable for me as I made that transition.  +++++++++++++++++++++= [00:27:37] Tommy Thomas:   Let's try to land this airplane here in the next minute or two. I'll ask you some possibly short answer questions, perhaps not. What's the main thing you wish somebody had told you earlier in your career? [00:27:56] Mark Tjernagel: Being in ministry is not easy. [00:28:05] Scott Brill:  I wish I had learned earlier that you don't always have to be 100% right or 100% accurate. Maybe it's the engineering math in me that I always wanted to get that final accuracy over the edge. And that caused me some issues in relationships because I was too focused on that. [00:28:33] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would that be?   [00:28:40] Scott Brill: That's easy. Don't do that. Be directionally correct and focus more on the relationship. I think I'd go back to me and just encourage me to hang in there. That it's worth it. In the long run, it's worth it.  The struggle, the challenges, it's worth it.  [00:28:58] Tommy Thomas: If you could get a do-over, is there anything in your career you would like another shot at? [00:29:02] Mark Tjernagel: All the times I've messed up and how I've led people. [00:29:10] Scott Brill: Yeah, that's a good one. I'll double down on that.  [00:29:16] Tommy Thomas:   What's one piece of advice that you might have to those listening that are in some sort of CFO track? What kind of counsel are you giving them? And maybe this is a little bit of a longer answer. [00:29:29] Mark Tjernagel:  I would say I'll modify the question a little bit. I'll say if somebody is in college, my recommendation or they're new in their career, I'd say learn everything you can about data and analytics software and tools, like Tableau and Power BI and things like that. Like how to think about information and data and how to visualize it and then also learn as much as you can about automation.   Robotics is really big in accounting and finance now and it's the wave of the future and so understanding automation early in your career will be really helpful as you grow in your career if you're on a CFO track. I'd go back to what I said earlier, which is to take communications classes and network yourself right because the process of networking into things like the Christian Leadership Alliance or other events like Missio Nexus or places like that is helpful because it helps you learn how to communicate about who you are and how to communicate with other groups of people but any classes or courses on communication is super helpful because it's fundamental to a CFO. [00:30:43] Scott Brill: Organizational behavior relationships. That's what's going to matter the most as you progress further up in your career. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I hope you've enjoyed learning from these two seasoned CFOs. Their insights have inspired me to have conversations with CFOs from additional nonprofit organizations. Future programming also includes conversations with the Chief Communication Officer, the Chief Information Officer, and the Chief Legal Counsel of nonprofit organizations. So, stay tuned for these episodes.  We're getting close to the 100th episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas. This is a huge milestone for us, and we have a very special guest for that episode.  I'll give you one clue as to who it might be. This person played a pivotal role in accelerating my career as a nonprofit executive search consultant. Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.  [00:24:51] Tommy Thomas: If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com.    Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.  If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders.   Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas Cru Website Young Life Website   Connect Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Tommy's LinkedIn Profile

[00:00:00] Caryn Ryan: The Chairman walks up to a fence.  They're tough, but they're relational, right? They're goal driven, but they're people driven. They stick to a vision of what they have for the organization and for the Board. They tend to be performance oriented. If you have Board Chairs who don't understand the value that the board is supposed to bring it's hard for them to be performance oriented. But the best Board Chairs really understand deeply what the value this board is bringing to this organization. And therefore, because they understand that they're able to act in that way. ​++++++++++++++++ [00:00:39] Tommy Thomas: In this episode, we're going to conclude the conversation that was started with Caryn Ryan, back in Episode 84. In that conversation, Caryn shared her leadership journey from BP/Amoco to the CFO for World Vision International to her current role as Founder and Managing Member of Missionwell.  In this episode, Caryn will be sharing lessons on nonprofit board governance that she's learned over the years.  [00:01:15] Tommy Thomas: Let's change over to board service and board governance for a few minutes. Your friend John Reynolds, who himself is a pretty steeped in this area, he said, if I ever got a chance to talk to you, that we for sure needed to talk about the work you've done and the  Balanced Scorecard for Boards. Take us into that. I really hadn't thought about that from a board perspective.  [00:01:36] Caryn Ryan: Yeah. That's great. I appreciated John's support in that area at the time. And then also Maggie Bailey, who you may know who was at Point Loma.  [00:01:44] Tommy Thomas: I do know Dr. Bailey.  [00:01:46] Caryn Ryan: She's been another good friend. And somebody who really helped form some of my thoughts on governance. We served on the Board of Open Doors together. So, in 2021 I read Dean Spitzer's book on Transformative Performance Metrics. And it made me start thinking about all the problems of metrics and how might it be possible to have more positive outcomes or avoiding the downsides that he was discussing. And I started thinking some of those downsides that he mentioned over and over through the book might be surmounted if we applied biblical principles and tried to attach metrics to our faith and that leaders that led from faith might therefore be able to get better outcomes. Let me give you a couple examples. When you're using metrics in an organization usually tangible and financial results are really at the top, and that doesn't motivate people a lot of the time. And so I began to think maybe if we had some people and relationships at the top, in other words, that sort of from this biblical base of loving people that might be more but motivating and it would certainly be better connected to our faith. And then getting overconfident in the measures that the measures become the goal. Humility, this is a really important faith-based value and way of life, and perseverance in the face of issues. Those kinds of biblical and ways of living faithfully might help surmount that. And the fact that a measurement isn't trusted. I was thinking of let your yes be a yes, this idea that people get very defensive regarding failures, I thought in a faithful community, confession is at the core of reconciliation. So, I started thinking about how all these shortcomings had a biblical answer to them. And I started thinking how could we start to put together an approach that was more biblical and then allowed people's faith to be at the heart of their metrics? And as time went on I started then thinking about, okay let's take the issue of goals. That's taking a step back from the problems of metrics, but metrics are meant to - in a sense, say how we're doing on the journey of goals. So, we have, for instance, a vision. You have a vision to get to the vision, you set big goals, and then when you set the big goals, you have metrics. There're BHAGs sometimes, or there are other types of goals. And I started just then thinking about goals. Smart Goals Specific, Measurable, Actionable, Relevant to the mission and vision of the organization and Timebound And I know you've talked with John Pearson, and hearing good friends, you probably have heard him talk a lot about smart goals. Specific, Measurable, Actionable, Relevant to the mission and vision and Timebound. John uses smart goals a lot and that has impacted so many non-profits and Christian organizations for the good. It's added a lot of clarity and focus. I began to think about another lens, which is clear goals. Clear goals have come out in the last few years as another way of thinking about goals. And the CLEAR stands for Collaborative, Limited, Emotional, Appreciable and Refinable. CLEAR Goals Collaborative, Limited, Emotional, Appreciable and Refinable If you look in more detail at what those mean, they all come down to how is it that people are motivated and how is it that within a system of organization we set goals that are people sized and yet think about who they are, and it thinks about the people who the basic people are connected to as well. So I began to think about those clear goals and how people get motivated and start thinking more and more that there might be, again, that role for faith because that approach of the clear goals seemed like it tied a little bit better with the love of people. So let me give you a quick example here. Let's just see my vision. This is my vision. I'm going to use you a personal example, and this isn't true by the way, but it's just an example. My vision is to travel the world and have lots of adventures, and then I go to the doctor and the doctor says, I need to lose 50 pounds to get to a goal weight. That doctor's saying that you need to get to a goal weight, that's not motivating by itself to a lot of people. In fact, it might discourage some people or, and some people might take it to extremes, and it might compromise their muscle building and their bone density, etc, and so on. So it can have some unintended consequences. And it might be hard on my family if I stop cooking because I need to lose 50 pounds. But if my goal is to be physically fit enough to take a hike in the Swiss Alps in two years, that's motivating to me. And it might produce long-term change and it might engage my family too. So the system around me, it might have positive benefits for the system around me and it might create better health outcomes for my family too. So I started thinking that's the goal, it's to get the right motivations for people directly responsible for the goal. It's to attach the goal to something that's motivational for them. And then it's to ensure that the surrounding people and processes don't suffer any material negative consequences, that goal and in fact maybe even benefit from it. So then, that was some goal thinking that solved, finding good. And then I started thinking about balanced scorecards because balanced scorecards, really what those are is a way of expressing how you're accomplishing the sum of your goals. I began to think then about this idea of a KPI, key performance indicator that is saying that's a measure at a strategic level. So it's not a key success outcome, which is maybe something a little bit more tactical, but it's at the strategic level. And I started thinking about KPIs in particular and balanced scorecards. And how then could you take these processes, this or this idea of love for people and get that translated into some better performance metrics or better KPIs. I was working at the time with a Christian homeless organization. And I started talking with them about this as part of their strategy process, and I just noticed it resonated with their mindset. And we continued working on it with this organization. And it resulted in a scorecard initially for that organization,  which then turned out to be relatively easy to translate, concept wise, into a scorecard for a board. A KPI has both a measure and a target. Let me just give you a few examples. A KPI has both a measure and a target, and it's based on a balance set of perspectives. And so one example might be a board that wants to measure giving and getting, you've probably seen that as an issue, Tommy, and some of the boards that you work with, their concern is that the giving and getting the donations direct and indirect are not sufficient or not what the development department wants.  Some boards the chairman in collaboration with the CEO might say, this is a minimum gift. It's $10,000. If you want to be on our board, you're going to give $10,000. It's a minimum gift. Or another board might take the approach of saying, we want you to be in the top three of charities or causes that you give to now. One of those ways is more focused on people and aligning motivations and commitments than the other. And that's the difference at a board level and at an organization level that we're trying to capture. How do you make these things more motivational?  Another area for a board might be in the continuous improvement boards that have a really high percentage of directors talking about how much they love their board and are likely to be doing a good job. It could be that when it comes to your board self-assessment, if your measure is going to be based on your board self-assessment, maybe within that board self-assessment, you want to have a measure and pull that up to the KPI level about what is your board of director's net promoter score? In other words, how many people on your board are going out and talking about that board positively and inviting them to come into the board? Maybe 80% of the board, at least, should be going out and doing that. And if they are, then that's a great metric for a board self-assessment. It's a very results-oriented self-assessment. You've got a great board if everybody's out there talking about what a wonderful board you have. And it's also doing great things, by the way, for your recruitment metric as well.  [00:10:27] Tommy Thomas: That question I hadn't heard.  This is fascinating.  [00:10:33] Caryn Ryan: So, whether it's for boards or leaders, a nonprofit who wants to do this for a ministry has to tweak the methodologies that are used in the for-profit sector. But I think if they do it, they're going to get this a board or the leaders of organizations, they're going to just get a huge payback. They're just going to find that it's transformational in terms of the quality of time that they spend working on their metrics, making sure their personal motivations don't have unintended consequences and that they demonstrate the love for people. So, this is not something that I think a lot of people are thinking about, Tommy, and I can see working on this more as my role. So, mission will become less operational, but there's something in here that there's a word here that needs to be spread a little bit and different ways of thinking that we as Christians can offer to the rest of the world. ++++++++++++++++   [00:11:26] Tommy Thomas: A lot of people, most of us, would say that we've learned a lot in life through failure. In fact, maybe a lot of our stuff is learned through mistakes. If that's the truth, why are most of us so afraid to make a mistake?    [00:11:40] Caryn Ryan: I really think that it goes back to those two root causes that I was talking about before for leadership. Self-esteem and a desire for power or money or greed.  And if you have really low self-esteem, then I think you don't want to be judged. And because you don't want to be judged, then you don't take risks. And if you don't take risks, there's no reward. And then because there's no rewards, that goes and reinforces your low self-esteem. So it's this whole negative cycle of activities that just result in you not taking risks. But I would say too that if it's somebody who's power hungry, what you're going to see there is maybe not mistakes. It's more sins or heirs, of omission and commission really, that are just more, they're selfish, right? And so they're mistakes. They're either mistakes, in this life or in the next life. If you want to improve people's risk taking, you need to permit mistakes. And we need to also work on the root causes there.  We need to have systems and processes that make it safe, that don't trigger negative self-esteem, that make it okay for people to engage in risk taking, that set up rewards for risk taking. It's a kind of a whole system that we have to address if you want to fix this. But I think from a board perspective, and I know you're coming from that some of the time, there's also an issue of just needing to screen people who are willing to step past any kind of inner hesitations that they might have about, looking silly in front of their peers, for instance and who will just come out and say, it looks this way to me. And from a board perspective that seldom is going to be a mistake is going to generate a great conversation and improve outcomes for a board.  [00:13:43] Tommy Thomas: I want to go to financial accountability for a minute.  Because you live three or 400 miles south of the largest bank failure in recent days, the Silicon Valley Bank. And then you and I are both old enough to remember the Enron scandal. And in both of those situations, I think most people say the board is culpable. I guess the jury's still out on the bank but my hunch is that they'll find some culpability there. Take it. And they're not nonprofit organizations, but boards have responsibilities. How do you counsel your clients to have more candid conversations about financial accountability? [00:14:21] Caryn Ryan: That's such a great question, Tommy. I will say too, just for starters, that it's quite rare, I think for board members to have whatever it takes to come out and ask these top questions. The best of boards do, but the middle of the pack and the worst really don't. Now you start thinking then about what is in the best of boards that makes them allow conflict and allow tough questions to come out. And I think there's a variety of answers. But first, let me just say this. I want to point out an interesting statistic here because if you look at candidate or GuideStar, this is a rating entity for nonprofits. And that includes Christian nonprofits. They provide some statistics that could be of interest here to try to think through - who are the best of the best. It's not completely pertinent, but in their world, which is thousands and thousands of charities that they rank, only 5% get a ranking of gold, silver, or platinum status. And of those, it's a very limited percentage, maybe 15%, that get the platinum. So when you multiply that backwards, then it says that only about 1.5% of all the charities that get ranked get a platinum candid certification. Now, this is mainly just looking at financial results and transparencies, but I think it does show that being the top nonprofit, it's pretty rarefied world. It's that up in the stratosphere there is a top nonprofit or a top ministry. So then we code your question then about I think having a board that can ask the tough questions is a precursor to that, to being a top performing nonprofit. And so having a really great board. It is a risky proposition when a nonprofit CEO recruits only his/her friends or allies to the Board. There are barriers that we can see. I'm sure you've seen these often too, but it's not unusual for a CEO to recruit his or her friends or allies to the board. And that's never a good idea because it discourages a lot of times that friend from having an honest conversation about the nonprofit or something that's really important to their friend. And also on boards, it's not unusual to have a whole bunch of conflicts of interest. It just isn't dealt with or even surfaced by the board members. So when you have that, then you have the sometimes people aren't going to ask tough questions because they have a conflict of interest.  Another factor is that there's capability gaps. There are people who aren't able to read basic financial statements or financial reports. And I think financials, I'm coming at this from a financial perspective perhaps, but financials embody the impact of boards and their decisions, and their actions related to strategy. A board takes a decision. The decision unfolds as actions. The actions are translated into financial results. And so that's how a board gets to see how did I do with the strategic decisions that I made? But interestingly, a lot of times sports can't even read their financial statements. There's a lot of financial literacy questions there. So how can you ask tough questions if you can't read the financial statements or financial reports and understand them? And sometimes there are issues with what's delivered to boards too, in terms of information, but sometimes it's just a basic lack of understanding. I think too, there's also a fundamental issue that sometimes with boards, they don't get enough board development or board training and they really just don't understand their key role when it comes to accountability. And so, they don't understand that it's their job to ask the tough questions. These are a few things, but I think you put them all together, Tommy. And isn't it a wonder at all that any charities have boards that do ask the tough questions and that are excellent? There are a lot of pieces that all have to come together to make that happen. +++++++++++++++++   [00:18:11] Tommy Thomas: At the crux of any board is the Board Chair. Give me words and phrases that would describe the best chair you've ever seen or served under.  [00:18:20] Caryn Ryan: Okay. I would say some of the things that I've seen the chairman do… They're tough, but they're relational, right? They're goal driven, but they're people driven. They stick to a vision of what they have for the organization and for the board. They tend to be performance oriented. I think if you have board chairs who don't understand the value that the board is supposed to bring it's hard for them to be performance oriented. The best board chairs really understand deeply what the value this board is bringing to this organization. And therefore, because they understand that they're able to act in that way. So I see those are some of the characteristics that differentiate a great board leader from a less than great board leader. [00:19:11] Tommy Thomas: Do you think every board needs a glass half empty person?  [00:19:16] Caryn Ryan: Does the board need that kind of a person? No. I guess it depends on how you define that, Tommy. So, for me if you mean by that, that there's a person who can see that they're on the side of half empty, that there's upsides and downsides, right? Then maybe. But in general, I think when a board comes together, they need to be so enthusiastic, so passionate about the mission and vision. So, the ability to look at an opportunity and say, no our glass is not half empty. I know where we want to go as a board, and we're going to fill this glass, right? They're going to say, we're going to absolutely fill this glass. We're going to pivot and do what we have to do because maybe there are some circumstances out there that are making some people think the glass is half empty, but we're going to pivot. We're going to figure out what we need to do. Always moving down the field toward the goalpost, toward the vision for the organization. So I think if people can try to look at environments and circumstances and say, how do we get the most from these?  How do we use this? Change this, maybe this negative circumstance. How do we use this negative environment? How do we use this risky situation? How do we just use this to help us down the goalpost? Or if we just absolutely can't find a way, how do we dodge it for now so we can come back and get back on track later? Is there a better way for a board member to function? [00:20:39] Tommy Thomas:   Talk a little bit about the CEO Evaluation and the Board.  You've seen a lot of boards. What's some best practices you see there?  [00:20:48] Caryn Ryan: How about for starters doing it? That to me is critical and mostly what I've seen over the years are annual assessments. When it's done. What I see is annual assessments sometimes every two years. When I've helped boards, I sit on boards that I've helped. What I've done is I've stolen shamelessly from other organizations to develop an assessment. And by the way, I don't think you need to be overly concerned with whether a professional developed this assessment. Most board members know this is what's important for us and for the CEO. Just write those questions out and, go or go steal them from somebody and tweak them a bit to make them fit your circumstances. I've noticed other nonprofits are very generous in sharing that way. They're happy to say, this is my evaluation tool. But it's important too, to just do it and to remember too, it's not the tool, it's the conversation around it.  You're actually using that tool because you want to improve. If it's a Board evaluation, you want to improve the Board. If it's a CEO evaluation, you want to give it to the CEO to develop the CEO. And sometimes to make a tough decision on retention. But a lot of times it's for the development and the good of the CEO and the organization. So don't focus on the what, focus on the how, when it comes to these evaluations, and keep in mind what the goal is, right? To encourage and to support and to develop your CEO. [00:22:13] Tommy Thomas: I talked to Jerry White, The Board Chair for The Navigators International, yesterday.  And Jerry's comment was that whatever comes out in the evaluation shouldn't be a surprise.  [00:22:22] Caryn Ryan: That's quite true because if it does turn out to be a surprise, Jerry is absolutely correct. You've had a trust breakdown. The results of the Board's evaluation of the CEO should not be a surprise to the CEO.  If that happens you have a breakdown in trust and communications. When you have that big of a communications breakdown, there's a trust dynamic at work there. And that has to be treated as a separate issue and a precursor to really doing CEO evaluations. You first have to address that trust issue, what is causing the trust issue?  And you have to get that out of the way before you can then have reasonably productive conversations around an assessment.  That's such a common dynamic, Tommy. [00:22:56] Tommy Thomas: Jerry said that, I'm probably paraphrasing, but something to the effect of the evaluation should really be going on overtime and not just every 12 months or whatever.  [00:23:06] Caryn Ryan: He's absolutely right. So there should be informal feedback occurring. Some of the better boards, I've seen the chairman meeting monthly with the CEO, right? They have lunch, an informal kind of lunch. And they're having a very frank and relational though dialogue during the month about, what's going, what's going wrong. It's a chance and opportunity for linkages and feedback to the board and back. And so that in and of itself is building trust and leading to the ability for the board to have a positive session when it comes to the performance management. But I'll say this, even when that's occurring at which it does in the best board, there are going to be, because the CEO Evaluation is the sum of all, typically of all the board members. It's not always the case. Sometimes the chairman will do it, or they'll select a few people to do it, but a lot of times it's the whole board. There's almost a benefit to seeing that total perspective because maybe there's an aspect of it that's a surprise. The overall flow is in accord with what the chairman and CEO have been talking about and having dialogue on through the year. But there's a couple of points that generally come out that make that wrap up in the annual evaluation valuable. There's something about the faith life of the CEO that hasn't been addressed and it's coming out and there's a way to have a conversation in a different kind of pulling up. Over the past year and maybe even looking forward a little bit into the challenges, it's just a way of pulling up above the fray and looking with a little bit more distance at the year that can generate a couple of new revelations. But I totally agree with Jerry. There shouldn't really be a lot of surprises on that because there should be this ongoing dialogue. +++++++++++++++++++ [00:24:44] Tommy Thomas: I want to ask you one question, then I'll close. My next to the last question has to do with succession planning and the board. At what point should that begin to occur? And how does the board address that without the CEO thinking? I'm a short termer.  [00:25:03] Caryn Ryan: Okay. Yeah, that's great.  I'm dealing with that right now at one of my one of the boards that I sit on. And I've just dealt with that last year as well. And it works both ways if it works all, all different ways. So let me just talk about one where the CEO does get the feeling. If you have this conversation, they're a short termer. I want to just say first of all, that can sometimes go back to the trust issue again, right? When there's a lack of trust between the board and the CEO then, and you bring up the question of succession planning, the first thing that goes of course into the CEO's mind is, oh, I'm getting fired.  I'm a short termer here.  So that has to again, be addressed, the trust issue before you can have productive conversations around succession planning. But even longer term issues are going to take some time to get resolved. There's something you can always do on the succession plan that's very short term and that every single board must have in place. And that is you need a succession plan in case of an emergency. If your CEO becomes ill, is hit by a bus, whatever, right? You need an emergency succession plan that is an interim structure or very well thought through way that you'll manage in the absence of the CEO.  And usually, it's not going to bring out the same negative feeling for the CEO.  On the part of the CEO because they understand that, oh yeah, if I'm not there, we need to have some interim structure. And so, they'll begin helping the Board and thinking through, look, okay, if something happens to me, let's make this person on our staff, the interim, or let's pull this Board Member out and see if they'll be the interim. Or they'll start to engage in the ideas for how that could work in an interim structure. And as long as you can get that interim structure put in place and everybody's in agreement that it's workable, that then gives a chance during the interim structure for the Board to go out and begin doing a search to find a replacement candidate. Regarding succession planning for a Founder – She/he just might not be willing to step aside. They might have created a whole lack of number twos in the organization who can step in, even in an emergency. It just may not be anybody. So that's a different situation where the board needs to probably, in addition to working on trust, which can be very difficult with the founder. You might be off the board if you start having those kinds of conversations. But what you can do as a board is do your research. How you would do a search. You can get your research done on executive search firms who could step in and help you. You can just keep in mind, it takes and Tommy, you're the one who should be telling your podcast listeners this, but it's a long process to do a search. You've got to set up a search committee. You have to figure out how you're going to recruit, the person. You've got to have an approach. You have to execute it, you have to review the candidates. It's just really time consuming. You at least have to think through all of these, how that's a minimum thing, even if it's a founder situation. So I'd say two things. Number one, for sure, have an interim emergency succession plan, no questions asked. That's an absolute minimum mandate for every board. And number two, if you're on a founder board, you have to do some special extra work along the side with networking, quiet networking, just to figure out the process and figure out how you would do, how would you do that if something did happen to your founder, if your founder's not willing to participate or help with that.  Does that make sense?  [00:28:32] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. The founder conversation is probably a three or four podcast discussion that I haven't had yet. Maybe I'll have you back with two or three other panelists and we'll talk about founders because I did some research three or four years ago on that, and it's an easier said than done proposition. [00:28:49] Caryn Ryan: Yes, I totally agree, and I'd love to hear the wisdom of some other panelists on this one too, because we all encounter these founder situations.  [00:28:58] Tommy Thomas: So, let's go to my last question.  Somebody comes to you next week, they want to have breakfast or lunch, and somebody has asked them to serve on the Board of a nonprofit, and they're coming to you saying, Caryn, what should I be thinking about? [00:29:13] Caryn Ryan: I'd say, if they ask that question, they're on track to be a good board member first of all. Because sometimes people will jump into these situations without asking that very question. But what I would give somebody who's thinking about joining a board the advice is number one,  For a nonprofit Board Member - Does the mission of the organization excite my passion? Am I passionate about it? I think if you're not passionate about what the organization is doing, it's just not going to work. It's just not going to interest you inherently. So, you have to be able to see this as a way to realize or support your passion. Number two I would talk about - I would think about conflicts of interest. I was recently counseling the Executive Director of an organization who'd been asked to serve on a board where there were some competitive aspects to her organization. So we talked that through. And she in effect decided, no, there's too many conflicts of interest here for me to take that board position. Number three might be do you have the time? Okay. So, there's a real issue. You need to dig in and understand how much time is it going to take. Do you have to serve on committees? How much time do the committees take? How many, how frequently are the board meetings? Is there a retreat every year that you have to go to? So you really need to add up the time and make sure that you're able to make that commitment. I'd say those are three of the big things that I see with people. And a lot of times I'll start doing positive coaching to people too, in terms of, also, why don't you ask yourself, what development will I personally get by sitting on the Board? What will it do for me and my professional development or my development as a person and a human being? And sometimes that can make the difference. They can say, I really don't have the time to do this, but I need to do this because I really believe it's going to focus and sharpen at home this strategic skill set that I need to be successful in something else that I'm doing in life. And so, they'll do it and they'll be really glad, because they'll get that development. Just let's think about that lens too.  [00:31:05] Tommy Thomas: That's interesting.  A good friend, Joe Arms, who used to be the Chairman of the Baylor Board is the CEO of a large private sector company.  He said he makes that a part of the management training program for his employees that he encourages board participation in the nonprofit sector in Dallas as part of their grooming. [00:31:27] Caryn Ryan: I can see that you get a lot of personal development when you're a part of a board and it's where you're really learning that what you learn about governance is not so distinct from what you need to be a top senior executive in a corporation. There are just a lot of parallels there. So I can really see why he'd say that.  So he makes a very good observation. [00:31:48] Tommy Thomas:  Caryn, thank you. This has been a great conversation. I just believe our listeners have picked up some things that probably hadn't been covered in other board conversations, so thank you for taking this time with me. I really appreciate it.  [00:32:03] Caryn Ryan: Absolutely.  Thank you, Tommy. I'm so glad to have reconnected with you and been able to remember some of my fond memories with some of the people who are in your network as we've talked.  [00:32:14] Tommy Thomas:  Life has been good to me over the years, and the two men you mentioned, Nick Isbister and Rob Stevenson - both of those guys they put a lot of time into this project, and I'm grateful for their part in my life.  [00:32:26] Caryn Ryan: I'm grateful too and I can add you to my circle of gratitude now.  [00:32:30] Tommy Thomas: Our guest next week will be Alec Hill The President Emeritus of InterVarsity Christian fellowship. You may remember Alec from Episodes 18 and 19, where he and Rudy Hernandez, a former board chair at InterVarsity discuss the working relationship between the CEO and the Board Chair in a nonprofit organization.  Alec is also a prolific writer. He's a regular contributor to postings on the Christian Leadership Alliance website. One of his recent posts was titled Finding Gold in Manure. In that article Alec shares lessons that he's learned for some of the hard times in his life. And in our conversation we'll dig into some of those lessons.    Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas 2021 Distinguished Alumni Recipient Caryn Ryan, ‘79 Missionwell Website Transforming Performance Measurement: Rethinking the Way We Measure and Drive Organizational Success by Dean Spitzer   Connect Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Tommy's LinkedIn Profile Caryn Ryan's LinkedIn Profile  

[00:00:00] Jerry White: Risk has to be uncertain categories. There's legal risk, there's financial risk, and then there's what I call uncontrolled risk of things you don't expect that the government may impose. What if they decide for our property at Glen Erie that it no longer is going be tax exempt? Or what if the state were to do that sort of thing? Those are risks over which we have no control. The risk on leveraged investments, I think, is quite important. For instance, you may propose to a larger organization a $3 million project, but the money is not in the bank. And you have four donors who said they'll fund it, but will they, and if they do, what voice should they have in it? That's a huge thing.  Money given with strings attached is really quite risky. +++++++++++++++++++++ [00:01:02] Tommy Thomas: In this episode, we will conclude the conversation that we began with Jerry White in Episode 85. If you didn't hear that episode, Jerry White is the President Emeritus of The Navigators International. Prior to that he enjoyed a distinguished career in the United States Air Force, retiring as a two-star general. One of the reasons I wanted Jerry to be a guest is because of the depth of his nonprofit board service.  Among the boards he has served include  World Vision,  The Navigators.  Christian Leadership Alliance.  The Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. The Lausanne Committee on World Evangelization.  The Air Force Association.  Let's pick up the conversation where we were beginning to discuss board governance.  Let's shift over to board service. How did your first board show up? [00:01:56] Jerry White: My first board that I served on was a small organization and besides a church board, every board is different. When I got into leading boards, like the Christian Leadership Alliance and being on boards like World Vision and leading The Navigator board the biggest thing is who you have on the board.  And that they understand what their role is on the board.  And my view is that they're not operational. They don't make operational decisions, and they give the CEO a clear path to glide on. And hold that person accountable. And on the board service, I found it extremely important to have people of varied backgrounds and competencies so that we weren't all monolithic and the board could not be a rubber stamp board, whatever the leader wants. Yeah, that's fine. Just go ahead and do it. But to take on true, what I call policy governance, and to realize that you aren't running it, but you're holding the CEO accountable for what they say they're going to do. And once in a while you have to intervene.  [00:03:14] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned having the right people on the board.  What is the secret sauce? [00:03:20] Jerry White: One secret sauce is you don't bring them on just because they've got money. That's probably the worst criteria you can have if people do not share the vision of that organization on whose board they serve. You don't want them on there. And if they happen to have wealth and are generous people, that's fine, but we don't own them. They have to be people who give more broadly. And before we bring someone on the board we have to first make sure for me, in the Christian world, to make sure that there are people of spiritual maturity. Not just people with a high reputation or lead a big church or are well known. I would not care if none of the people on my board were well known as long as they were people of high integrity and then have had some experience. We're always pushing for getting a younger generation of board members, but there's a limit to that. You have to be sure that they're really qualified as they come in. And then the next thing that I feel is extremely important is you train. You train them how to be a board member and what's expected of them as a board member. In a few weeks, I'll be going to Kenya with The Navigators and we'll be gathering the board chairman from all over the world for a time of interaction and sharing. That's a trickier one, by the way, when you become a board chair, is how to become a board chair, particularly in our developing world where things aren't quite westernized as much. Yeah. And what should a board really do? Because people have different experiences. It's different from a second board, a secondary board who has financial responsibility and is held accountable for the quantitative results of the organization. That's a whole different picture, a different kind of board. [00:05:40] Tommy Thomas:  Let's go to the board chair. Give me some words and phrases that would describe the best board chair you've ever seen or served under.  [00:05:48] Jerry White: I'll tell you, there are two board chairs that I think of. One was a man by the name of Clay Brown. He wasn't the board chair, because I was chairman at the time. But he was certainly the key senior statesman on our board. He was measured. He was wise. He had a strong business background, and he had a passion for what we did. Our current Board Chair for The Navigators is doing an absolutely remarkable job and he leads several companies but has really given himself to being Chairman of The Navigator US board. The other thing is that the Board Chairman cannot be a jack of all trades. In other words, they can't be chairman of five different boards at once. Because I don't think anybody who has another job has that kind of time. But in knowing that they bear a particular responsibility within that organization to draw together the board, the executive team or the executive committee, and to really help lead them and keep them in their track and their track being on the policy governance side. And so the board chairs, and when I've done a board, I hope I've done this, is to really be prepared. You do not do this on the backhand, walking into a board meeting and 10 minutes ahead of time asking the CEO – what's the agenda? [00:07:25] Tommy Thomas:  Speaking about that working relationship, I know that's critical. Think back on your experience. How often does the Board Chair need to meet with his or her CEO? [00:07:35] Jerry White: First of all, they need to be friends, but I remember as a board member of a particular organization I wanted to be friends with the CEO and very much was. Then I became Board Chair and I said to him, our relationship is going to be a little different. I am your friend, but also, I'm accountable for the direction of the organization. And therefore, I'm going to be asking things of you that maybe I would not do if I was just a good buddy walking alongside and wanting to affirm you. So I think you need to be friends, but you'll also need to know that you have the responsibility for the policy direction of the organization and for the health and wellbeing of the CEO.  [00:08:27] Tommy Thomas: Go to that board meeting for a minute. What's been your best experience and who sets the agenda for the Board Meeting? [00:08:32] Jerry White:  For me, the Executive Committee needs to set the agenda. It needs to be proposed by the CEO because he knows the action items. And you've got certain performer things you've got to do on accountability of finances and income and disbursements and so forth and certain things on personnel. But I would want the CEO to come up with a list of what needs to be addressed, work with that CEO and perhaps the CFO to create an agenda with the Executive Committee that actually says how is this going to serve the work? And what are the decisions?  And I have three ways of assessing an agenda for the Board Meeting. What is information? We don't have to make any decision on it.  What is counsel? The CEO or somebody wants counsel on a particular item.  What decision needs to be made? So, every topic in the board meeting, I like to write along the side, the margin, inform counsel, decide. [00:09:48] Tommy Thomas: From a functional point of view, they wouldn't necessarily be in any order. They just as they come up, they're one of those three.  [00:09:58] Jerry White: No, it'd be one of the three. Your board meeting is usually divided into segments.  The CEO Report The Field Ministry Report The CFO Report Then there's a legal report. There may be certain personnel decisions that need to be affirmed. And by the way, that could be another way you would put it to affirm a decision. That's a little weak. And so you would structure your meeting not according to what you're going to decide, but according to what topics need to be addressed in the 24 hours you have together. And by the way, to really require that homework be done on the part of the staff making the decisions that “read-aheads” are there. And the right people come to make reports inside the meetings.  ++++++++++++++++++++   [00:10:51] Tommy Thomas: When somebody joins your board what does onboarding look like? [00:10:55] Jerry White: The onboarding looks for several organizations I've been working for two to three years with before they come on board, talking with them about it, seeing their interest,  getting a biography, bringing it to what I would call the nomination committee of the board. And the good boards that I work with have a roster of people that they're talking to that's very confidential and some of them never come on the board. And then as they are approaching it, you may even ask someone to actually sit in on a board meeting. And to see whether or not it meets their expectations. That isn't always possible. But in one board that I'm on, we have some junior members on it. This is on a board where we have younger leaders who come and serve for two years, and they don't stay on the board, just to give them experience. But then when you're onboarding, every board annually at least, there needs to be, in my mind, an orientation for the board where you go over the history of the board, you go over things. So they're not just in a befuddled mystery at terminology and history. It's like being in a family joke and nobody knows what the story was behind it. They have things that are ongoing and they have no clue. We need to bring them up to speed, both emotionally, historically, and personally. And it doesn't need to be long. It's for maybe half a day. And I've done this in a secular organization too, insisting that no one come on the board who doesn't have some orientation, both as to what a board does and what a board has done. [00:12:55] Tommy Thomas: Do you do a meeting evaluation or how do you keep your meetings fresh?  [00:13:00] Jerry White: Most boards do have a little evaluation afterward that they fill out. It's often, Tommy, their perfunctory and there of some limited value, the value mainly being that you asked, but I think the Chairman and the CEO, when they see things happening in the board, that afterwards they need to interact with them and saying, what do you think about it? How do you feel that board meeting went? And now that you've been in on X number of board meetings, say to tell me what you think and how can we help you be a better board member? Committee assignments are pretty important. Also, when I went on one board, it took me, Tommy, it took me two years to really figure out what was going on. And I served nine years and it was such a complex organization that it was really hard and took a lot of work to try and understand the dynamics behind this organization  [00:14:08] Tommy Thomas: Let me ask you to respond to this quote. “You need a director on the board who will be a pleasant irritant. Someone who will force people to think a little differently.  That's what a good board does.”  [00:14:21] Jerry White: In one board that I'm on, we appoint someone at every board meeting to be what we call a responsible skeptic. And that person is designated ahead of time. And that person, their job in that board meeting is to be a bit skeptical. Now, I think you have to be a little careful about always having a person who's always skeptical. I don't think I want a board member who every time something comes up, they raise their eyebrow, and you wonder what they're thinking. I think everybody ought to be a little skeptical at some time. And the main thing is if they don't understand something they need to ask. In other words, they need to do it. I was in a board meeting recently where a particular decision was in the process. And two of us on the board, I was an emeritus to the board, and the other was on the board. And I could tell there was a bit of discomfort. And so the chair asked that other person, they hadn't said anything, what do you think? And came up with a pretty good counter. Now I haven't got real good hearing, so I couldn't hear what he said. And then the board chair said, Jerry, what do you think? And I was like a deer caught in the headlights. And I said I couldn't hear what he said. And I said, we said exactly the same thing. And what was moving down the road to be a crafted decision was put aside and not done. I'm very wary of creating board actions on the spot, a statement or whatever it may be. The best way is to say, would somebody take this and come up in three or four hours, take a coffee break and craft us a statement on what we're trying to do. So I do believe that the chair needs to be able to look in the eyeball all around the way and see if there are some questions or if someone has been particularly silent, I think you need to say what do you think?  ++++++++++++++++   [00:16:34] Tommy Thomas: How do you draw that quiet board member out?  Some people just don't speak up unless they have something to say, which is probably a good thing. But how do you draw the quiet person out?  [00:16:46] Jerry White: I just say, Jack, what do you think about that? I say be very direct. I say, you've been listening to this discussion. Do you have anything to say? I don't want to force him to have to say something, but I say, this may be the expertise of the person that I'm asking. And I'll say Joan, your expertise is in this area, I know you've been through this before. What are we not hearing? What questions do you have? And that gives them freedom to speak out. And the other thing is I don't think people should speak out, particularly declaratively. That is, I believe this, and you got to do this. And I don't like that because that puts themselves on the table. But people learn to be able to share in a non-confrontive fashion. [00:17:44] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to financial accountability. You and I are old enough to remember the Enron scandal, and then if you've been paying any attention to the last two or three days, you've seen the Silicon Valley Bank go under.  In both of those things, there was board culpability. Neither were nonprofit, but they will both board culpability.  How do you get your boards to make sure you're addressing the financial aspect, a judiciary responsibility of the board?  [00:18:10] Jerry White:  It's a CEO's responsibility to make sure that the right questions are answered.  And it's got to be more than just an audit.  We want a clean audit. And you don't want to have to go to the bottom notes and say, here's something we should correct, but we need to guide the board through the financial realities of what we're doing. But at the end of it, I think you need to have a risk analysis that says, okay, where are we vulnerable? For instance, in our litigious society today, we have a lot of risk, and I think of ministries that have Christian camps and all the sexual liabilities and all of that. They are at risk all the time when you're working with minors and then I think people need to ask questions of the CFO and the auditor, where do you see us being at risk? What would happen if, what if happened? You have a September 11 or you have a Covid pandemic. And you have to say, our whole income stream is going to be jeopardized. And then I think you need to look and say, where are our major vulnerabilities for both expenditure as well as income? Now that's, it's very different in a Christian organization than it is a secular organization like an Enron or the banks or whatever it is. The fault there goes so that people don't ask questions, or that the actual realities have been hidden from it and just saying, oh, it'll be okay.  ++++++++++++++++++= [00:19:56] Tommy Thomas: From your perspective, how does the board get involved in strategic planning?  [00:20:02] Jerry White: Boy, that is a good question, Tommy. The question is, who does the strategic planning? Okay. Let's say that we're in a very small developing organization amid developing, and a large organization, they're very different and the very smallest organizations, the board may be highly engaged in the strategic plan because it's such a small organization and they're so fragile. As a general rule of thumb, the board may do strategic thinking, but strategic planning has to be on the part of the CEO and his or her staff. And the plan needs to be brought to the board for their interaction. And then approval. And that's particularly true with a large organization. The board can't do strategic planning. They can do some strategic planning for the board. That is, how should we develop our board? What expertise do we need? But as far as a ministry for most organizations, as large as the navigators or crew or some others, they aren't gonna know the details of what's going on out in the field or how they have to pretty well react and respond to the strategic planning initiatives that they may come up with. How many staff, what countries are we doing to go into? What are we not going to do? What are we gonna stop doing etc. So the board certainly needs to approve the strategic plan. Chances are, even when they do that, They won't know it very well. I'm just sorry that, when you're not, when you don't have to carry out a strategic plan, it's hard to really know it. [00:22:00] Tommy Thomas: The ones that created it, that have been involved in hammering it out, they're the ones that know it. [00:22:06] Jerry White: That's right. And then you have to, with every strategic plan, you have to set, have a set of outcomes and a set of risks, and then you have to say, how much is it going to cost to implement this? [00:22:22] Tommy Thomas: I think the risk thing, that could almost be a podcast in and of itself. I interviewed Dr. Sandra Gray, the President Emeritus at Asbury University and she was a former banker before she got into higher ed. And her thought was that nonprofit boards probably don't pay enough attention to the risk of the organization. [00:22:40] Jerry White: I think there's no question on that, especially risk has to be uncertain categories.  There's legal risk, there's financial risk, and then there's what I call uncontrolled risk of things you don't expect that the government may impose. What if they decide for our property at Glen Erie that it no longer is going to be tax exempt? Or what if the state were to do that sort of thing? Those are risks over which we have no control and the risk on leveraged investments, I think is quite important. For instance, you may propose to a larger organization a $3 million project, but the money is not in the bank. And you have four donors who said they'll fund it, but will they, and if they do, what voice should they have in it?  That's a huge thing. Money given with strings on it is really quite risky.  [00:23:46] Tommy Thomas: Hadn't thought of that. [00:23:46] Jerry White: And I've served on the board of the ECFA and they're very good at this. In terms of helping people think through risk and failure and financial accountability.  [00:24:01] Tommy Thomas: Let's look at the CEO evaluation.  I know you've been involved in a number of those, and you've been evaluated as a CEO. What are some takeaways? [00:24:10] Jerry White: You must be evaluated. Now we have a number of kinds of evaluations. You have a 360 evaluation, and some people are very skilled at that. It's very threatening to some CEOs, but it's necessary. I feel that there needs to be an evaluation within the organization, I had one. I had someone who evaluated me every year and they had the freedom, and they did call my wife, call my kids, talked to my coworkers, my peers, talked to those who worked for me, gave a free reign to ask certain questions. The questions need to be carefully thought through. They can't be so invasive. But the evaluation is of several levels. One is certain on a moral personal level. I do not think a committee can do that. Every CEO needs to have the kind of people in their lives who will blow the whistle on them if they say anything wrong. And the small Executive Committee needs to be aware of how that could happen. The second in terms of an evaluation is performance against set out goals. The third is relational. How's their team going? What do they think? What are the issues? And to give the feedback to the CEO and I think to give it privately and then in the board, and we do this to give a summary analysis, but the board should not be privy to the detailed questions. It's a really touchy process. And the evaluation needs to be, not be a pass fail, but Loren Sanny taught me it should be a progress review. How are you making progress toward the things that you have said you want to do? [00:26:15] Tommy Thomas: Let me close with a question that I ask often, particularly to people that have been on boards a long time as you have. How has board service changed over the last decade?  [00:26:25] Jerry White: I'm not sure about the last decade, but certainly over the last two decades the area of risk and financial accountability has increased tremendously. The litigiousness of our society has made a tremendous impact on how a board functions. So those two things, the financial accountability and the potential lawsuits and things of that nature. Tommy, I don't know that I can make a generalist statement about how boards have changed, but I can say that through the last 20 to 30 years, the boards have become more important and more vital to our organization's future than they were a number of years ago. Many years ago, even in The Navigators, the board was a cheering section for Dawson Trotman and Lawrence Annie.  Go get 'em and thanks for letting us know what's going on. To a point where we had to be accountable for the finances. 911 changed everything, by the way, particularly for anyone operating internationally. When you're sending money across international boundaries, you have a whole different level of accountability financially imposed by the government. And I'm speaking only from the viewpoint of the United States, and you get into all these other countries with all different kinds of demands and requirements and corruption and what have you. The boards have become far more important to the organization's health. And I think the public has a right to know who's on your board. And when I look at an organization as I've done even the last few days, and I look through who the board members are, it isn't that I need to know them, but that they're there as real people with real names that if one needed to, you could connect with them. ++++++++++++++++++++++ I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Jerry White. If you're ever at a conference where Jerry is speaking or leading a breakout session, make sure you attend those sessions. We all have so much to learn from Jerry White. Our guest next week is Paul Mauer. Paul is the president of Montreat College.  When Paul was selected to be the President of Montreat, the college wasn't very far from closing its doors. What has happened at Montreat over the past nine years is nothing short of miraculous.  [00:29:06] Paul Maurer: I started my first presidency 13 or 14 years ago, and I remember going to the president's conferences and coming back after two or three of those, and I said to my cabinet, here's my takeaway, change or die. And then I was out of the presidency for a couple years. I began to go back to those meetings again. When I came to Montreat nine years ago, I came back to my cabinet, I said, they've inserted the words fast change, faster, die. We've taken on the mindset of a startup. So, we consider ourselves a 107-year-old startup. We're not a turnaround. We're not maintainers.  We're not traditionalists. We try to employ the principles of a startup, meaning we're creating something new. And so, I think in the next five to ten years, we're going to see a pretty dramatic change in the number of colleges and universities in the United States. The enrollment cliff is real. The declining birth rates are real. And it's going to have a really major impact on the number of schools that close.   Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas The Navigators Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability Christian Leadership Alliance   Connect Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Tommy's LinkedIn Profile Jerry White's LinkedIn Profile  

[00:00:00] Lisa Cummins: I think the question I would ask is what is your employee turnover? And because I have found nonprofits come and go, employee turnover helps me understand what your commitment is to, what your ability is to lead, and what your consistency is with your values.  Because if you're not consistent, employees won't stay long. ++++++++++++++++++++= Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with Lisa Trevino Cummins. Lisa spent the first 12 plus years of her career with Bank of America where she expanded the bank's community development initiative to become one of the first national corporations to partner with faith-based organizations in underserved neighborhoods. From Bank of America, Lisa was called to help launch the White House Community and Faith-Based Initiative. In 2003, she started Urban Strategies where she continues her work to make resources more available to underserved communities.  Since founding Urban Strategies, Lisa has been a catalyst of several initiatives that resulted in almost $40 million of new programming focused in low-income communities.  Let's pick up the conversation when I was asking her about the early days of Urban Strategies.  [00:01:23] Tommy Thomas: You're probably not the first founder I've interviewed but you'd be one of the first.  What was the genesis of Urban Strategies?  [00:01:29] Lisa Cummins: Yeah, I mentioned that I worked for 12 years with Bank of America and about the last five years of that, and again, I had this parallel path of working in the bank and being fairly successful in that. And then the second parallel path to that was working in the church. And really that's where my heart was about year seven or eight into this journey of the bank. I started questioning why those two paths were divergent. Why, if I'm talking about if I'm working in the bank to address communities in need and why is that different? Why is my church life not connected there? I read a book called The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancey.   And that really helped highlight the passages in the scripture that, even though I've read the Bible three or four times, I really never saw those passages in Matthew about serving those in need, about loving your neighbor, about justice, about God's heart for the poor. When he talks to the Israelites and judges has some judgment on the Israelites because of how they treated the marginalized. So, I had this, what I call a “holy agitation” and where my spirit was struggling with this, and about that time the Lord, it was the Lord. But the bank asked me to move to St. Louis to help start the community development group I had in Texas, to help start that in a bank that we had purchased in the Midwest. So, I had five states reporting to me. Developing from the ground up. It was a hard move because I was really on the fast track in San Antonio politically and socially. So I ended up moving to the Midwest and it was a hard transition. We didn't know anyone there. That community was not familiar with the culture that I came from. Spaghetti sauce substituted for hot sauce at the time, and that's hard for a Texan. And during that time we ended up at a church that was not part of my tradition. I was from a Pentecostal background. This church was a PCA church. And long story short,  We saw, in action, the answer to that question and that holy agitation I was wrestling with because this congregation was very intentional about reconciling people to God and reconciling people to one another. And so, you had a congregation before multiculturalism became popular. They were really living that out and very intentional about it. And that became a pivotal point for me in terms of recognizing the role, the opportunity, the obligation that the faith community had to serving its neighbors, to loving its neighbors. And one thing led to the other. My pastor in Texas, I had brought him to the Midwest, said, you got to see what I'm talking about. And so he said, he came 24 hours. He said, Lisa, my world's been turned upside down and I'm going to meet with the governor next week. Can I tell him about this? I'm like, sure, you can tell whoever you want to. It happened to be Governor George W. Bush. And so, when they met it wasn't long after that I got a call from the governor's office and said, hey, we want to understand what you're doing and what you're working on because that's something we want to do in Texas.  And so, the governor became president and then they asked, we want help.  We want to develop this faith-based initiative nationally. Can you come to the White House and help us do that? I had three kids under three. The twin boys that were six months and my daughter, who was two and a half and my husband.  We moved to DC and ended up working there for a couple years.  [00:05:23] Tommy Thomas: So, when you finally spun off and went out on your own what was that first year like? [00:05:27] Lisa Cummins: The first year was, when you work in the government, it's illegal to set up your business for when you're going to be, for when or relationships or anything, or when you're going to exit.  I exited because I felt that my calling was to work with the church to love its neighbors.  I had come to the end of what I could do with that internal to the government. And I saw the need and opportunities on the outside of the government to still further move along that calling. And so, I left the government, and I remember driving. I was like, I'm going to do this. I don't know how, I don't know where, but this is the work I have to continue. And so, I let folks know that was happening. And I got a couple of small contracts. I remember that first check, I don't know, it was $10,000 or something. And I was so proud of that because I am entrepreneurial and just that sense of being able to build something and then get paid for it was pretty cool. But it was a time of learning. It was a time of flexibility. It was a time of really trying to find my way. I remember there's a fellow named Gordon Loux, I don't know if you know him. He always said, Lisa, the challenge you're going to have is figuring out where you're going to focus. And he's right.  We do all kinds of work, but the common thread has been low income or it's not low income. The common thread has been working with Latino populations. Why? Because that's what I know best. And working with the church. And today we do that in all 50 states. We do that in Puerto Rico, we do that in Central America and do in all kinds of arenas. I'm sorry, I think I diverted from your original question. I remember Tommy, I will say one vivid recollection I have, it was about August, September of that first year of 2002. This is our 20th anniversary at Urban Strategies. And I remember being really frustrated because I saw the need was so significant in communities and I didn't have any resources. I remember a woman saying, Lisa, I don't think we need federal funds because God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. I'm like, I agree that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, but where those resources are, they're not being released to the communities I work in. So where I do have access is federal funding. And I was wrestling with that idea and wrestling with God about why is it so hard to get resources? And I never got an answer on why, but I got the comfort of understanding that if I'm doing God's work, God's going to provide. And so, I was able to let that go. Let that go. And God has.  [00:08:22] Tommy Thomas: So, what counsel would you give an up-and-coming wannabe founder?  [00:08:29] Lisa Cummins: I go back to what that pastor told me 20 something years ago, to make sure it's what you're called to do. The work that is called to do. Two is not make your ownership the goal but make your goal that calling.   That calling can be pursued in a number of different ways. It can be in partnership, it could be like, I was in banking, I was very much an entrepreneur in banking even though I was part of this structured company of 60,000 employees. But I was running my own thing. So, I think it's really important to not think, not to lead with the form or the structure, but lead with the calling and purpose. And I think the form of structure then will come and will be made known. You'll understand what that is. If in fact that means setting up your own organization, I would say keep your costs low. I'm still at the office where, this call is from my home. So, I was doing remote work 20 years ago, before it became popular. Our headquarters folks asked us today, where is your headquarters? I'm here in Arlington and this has been my office for the last 20 years, but we don't have a headquarters because we're based all over the country. I didn't make those big expenses early on and so it gave me some freedom to not have to worry about how I was going to pay for those things. And it allowed me to focus in on again, what my purpose in calling had been.  ++++++++++++++++++++++=   [00:10:00] Tommy Thomas: Another question first. And you may have answered this all along the way, but can you think of a time when you felt like you had found your professional voice that you know, that you were comfortable in your skin? [00:10:13] Lisa Cummins: Yeah. Tommy, that's an interesting question. I think it depends on who is listening to that voice. I think being raised in a community where you're the first or you're the only one has caused me to be hesitant about my voice. Even among people who are well-meaning and I know are great folks, the differences in our upbringing, in our culture, in our understanding and our experiences would cause me to be comfortable in a second seat. Because for me to be comfortable, behind someone in leadership or behind someone that's front stage. I think there's some real benefit to that. Because I think that comes with having a sense of humility that requires me to really focus on what is it that matters to me. Is it that I'm at the front with a microphone or is it that this gets done right? And so, I think there's been a lot of that. Having said that, over time it's funny when people say wow, you're an expert at this. I'm like, I don't feel like it's just because I've lived longer, it's just because I have a few more gray hairs. That I've been able to speak on things. And so, I think in the last 10 years, I think I actually have become more comfortable in my voice. I have, and in some ways that's a sad reality because I think I had a lot to contribute prior to 10 years ago. And having said that, I think that I am not as concerned anymore about what others think, nor as concerned about what others might think. And there's a term that our culture uses today that's called gaslighting. And as I understand it, gaslighting is causing people to believe that it's their failure. That has resulted in x, y, z consequences rather than the person that's doing the gaslighting. And I think in some ways I've allowed myself to be in that place of being the individual, the part of a community that is at fault or is less than or it comes short and hasn't recognized the value that I bring to the table. I think Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book about David and Goliath that's along those lines about, everyone saw David as the minuscule person who's going to be tossed and defeated, etc. But David's experiences brought him some things that really allow, besides the divine, besides God being part of that story. But it allowed David to bring some understanding of resilience, of working under pressure of working with, few less resources, etc. That's what my community has brought to the table, and I think I've, over the last 10 years, I've owned that more than I had in the past.  [00:13:21] Tommy Thomas: Earlier in the conversation you were talking about transparency and maybe you said you might've got hurt a little bit there. This is a quote from Joyce Meyer that I'd like for you to respond to. She writes about what she calls the Judas Kiss Test - The test of being portrayed by friends that we have loved, respected, and trusted. Most people in positions of leadership for any length of time are likely to experience this.  [00:13:48] Lisa Cummins: Unfortunately, if I've experienced that more times than I'd like to, that I'd like to admit, and hopefully I haven't been the perpetrator of that for anyone else. I think when power and greed come to the picture things change and I think all of us are susceptible to that. And I think that I've had some very difficult situations that have been driven at, in hindsight by those two things. And I think for me, the key is what I need, I am always checking myself to make sure that I'm on the right side of that story. And if I'm not to make amends and to identify what there is that I can, that I need to adjust on my end. But yeah, there's been things, and I think any business owner, any leader,you're susceptible to folks who maybe at one time, they were the best of, they were the trusted confidant, but something changed in their environment. Something changed, and those that influenced them, something changed in their circumstances that caused them then to make this Judas kiss. Ironically, we're talking about it this week. But yeah, those are very hurtful and that's probably been the most difficult part of my career is those circumstances and, if I didn't care about folks it wouldn't matter. But the ones that hurt the most are the ones that were people you care about the most. That's where it's going to hurt the most. And it's just part of where we are, part of humanity. And so I try to learn from that. I try to also appreciate, a friend of mine said, Lisa, don't ever trust me without accountability,and she's my most trusted friend. But she said that to me because she loved me, and she knows that all of us have shortcomings. And I think accountability is key. And another friend told me, a banker that's been my friend now for the last 25 years, she's our CFO. She says check what is it, trust and verify. And so I'm learning to do that better. Trust and verify.  +++++++++++++++++   [00:16:04] Tommy Thomas: Let's switch over to board service. Because obviously you report to a board, you serve on several boards. And I just would appreciate some of your input here. So, when did your first board show up?    [00:16:16] Lisa Cummins: So actually Tommy, I'm an LLC so, technically, I don't have a board. Having said that, we do have a couple of projects that require a board. So, we've set up a board for those projects. And I don't have a board, not primarily, just because when I started the organization that was establishing a 501(c) 3 and all the process that goes with that just wouldn't happen fast enough for the kinds of things I was doing. Having said that, I do have people who I trust. And so I hold myself accountable to our CFO, to our employees. I hold myself accountable to, and then I have some outside friends that have been on the journey with me for decades who I hold myself accountable to. So having said that I do serve, I have served on a number of boards. And so, I think there are different kinds of boards. Some are boards where it's as a good friend said, nose in, hands out, and then other boards where it's like, we need you all in. So, it depends on where the organization is. Their life cycle, the maturity of the board organization, the kind of resources they have, etc, that determine then what kind of board you're going to have and what kind of board members that you need.  [00:17:36] Tommy Thomas: You've served on the World Vision Board. That's a big one, obviously.  Maybe you can highlight some differences about the big board like that versus some of the smaller boards you've served on. [00:17:47] Lisa Cummins: Yeah, so I think World Vision, it was a nine-year term, three, three-year terms. It was a great experience. I think I learned a lot and hopefully I was able to contribute from my experience and knowledge with equal value. I think that World Vision is a very large organization, and so the best way to serve them is by asking those tough strategic questions. And by those questions that really are looking at more systems and strategy policy versus. Another board here in my community that I've been part of where I was signing time cards and helping make calls on fundraising and those sorts of things. So, they're very different. I have served on a public board which is Texas Teacher Retirement System. It was only for about a year and a half because I had to withdraw since I was moving to DC, that board was very interesting. It's politically appointed members of the board. And I remember learning that I was approved to serve on that board. It was, at the time it was a 60 billion fund. I don't know what it is today. Probably double that if not more. But I remember I got a call from a gentleman, again, I hadn't been to a board meeting, just got word. And he says, hello, Lisa. This is Bo in his West Texas accent. Welcome to the board. What side are you on? Oh, I said I don't know, the teacher side. And it was a board where there were some issues that there would be sideline meetings on who's going to, who's going to join with who. And alliances met. That was crazy. And I was appointed by Governor Bush. And so, it's interesting and even serving in the Republican administration, I've never been a partisan person. I try to vote and do what I feel like is best according to my biblical perspective, and so folks assume I go this way on one item and another way on another item, and I don't do that. And so I think that on that, even on that board, whether it was talking about how you're going to invest funds, or you're going to, how much are you going to put in versus how much you're going to put in funds. There was political haggling going on. I've just tried to stay true to what my values are, and that's what I bring. I can't bring anything else. And so if that doesn't work, then that's probably not a good place for me.  ++++++++++++++++++   [00:20:35] Tommy Thomas: I've started asking in the last month or so, my Shark Tank question. If you were on a nonprofit version of a Shark Tank, what questions would you need answered before you opened your checkbook?  [00:20:48] Lisa Cummins: I was ready to tell you what my investment opportunity was. I have that one, I have a few of those ready.  I think the question I would ask is what is your employee turnover? Because I have found nonprofits come and go and employee turnover helps me understand what your commitment is to, what your ability is to lead, what your consistency is with your values. Because if you're not consistent, employees won't stay long. Maybe you can explain them once or twice, but if you have an ongoing record of employees that are leaving, then there's a problem there. The other thing I would ask is a lot of nonprofits talk about partners. Let's say, describe the continuum of partnership with these organizations. When you say your partner is this because you dropped off a leaflet at their door sometimes, that's okay. Depends on what the goal is or is this talking about someone who you know their name, right? You know their name and you know their story and so you're trying to get at it in a deeper way. Those kinds of things. Yeah, I think those are a couple of questions I would ask. I would also ask how well, and this is important, not just for, some people will say, this is a political thing and it's not. How well does your organization reflect the communities you're serving? Because if it doesn't, that means that there's probably a sense of a pejorative type of approach that is not going to be that way. What could be, and it'll result in less results than what could be. Does that make sense?  [00:22:43] Tommy Thomas: Yes. If a nonprofit calls you and they're looking for a little consulting and you're going to put together a dashboard of things that you would be looking at a glance to check on their health what would that dashboard look like. [00:22:56] Lisa Cummins:   Yeah, so I think it's who are you partnering with and what are the depths of those partners? Do you know how to partner, can you partner too? What is your employee retention rate? I think the third would be your 30, 60, 90-day accounts payables and 30, 60, 90-day receivables. What does that look like? And accounts payables are very concerning. Obviously if you're 60 days behind in paying, you're like, what's going on here? And how long has this been the case? And so that relates to some of the financials. I would look at the composition of leadership and experiences that they bring. I think I would also look at if, and I get calls all the time, organizations wanting to start something. What have I asked? In looking for resources, I ask, what have you already done with the resources that you have? And so if you're in organizations, I want to start them. I want to work to serve my neighborhood and work with kids. Kids need something. I said okay, what's the name of the school principal in your neighborhood? And they don't know that then that's a sign to me that they haven't done their homework. They haven't done enough work, they haven't been driven enough to do this even without resources. Because I think if you are driven and called, you're going to figure out a way to do it. It may not be all that you want to do, and it may not be, but it says that you're going to do something with the time and the health that you have.  [00:24:27] Tommy Thomas: What do you wish a younger version of yourself had known and acted upon?  [00:24:33] Lisa Cummins: I think my younger self, it would've been good to know that my voice matters and that difference doesn't mean that one is inferior to the other. And that hard work matters, but it's not the only thing that matters. There's a scripture that talks about you can toil all day, but it'd be off or not. And I think that's important. So hard work matters, but the goal, the purpose, the reason that you're doing things you know that you've got to keep that forefront.  ++++++++++++++++++++++++ In Episode 85, we began a conversation with Jerry White that we will conclude next week. If you didn't hear that episode, Jerry is the President Emeritus of The Navigators International. Prior to that, he enjoyed a distinguished career in the United States Air Force - retiring as a two-star general.  One of the reasons I wanted Jerry to be a guest is because of the depth of his nonprofit board service. Among the boards on which he has served are World Vision, The Navigators, Christian Leadership Alliance, Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, The Lausanne Committee for World Evangelization and the Air Force Association.  [00:26:06] Jerry White: In one board that I'm on, we appoint someone every board meeting to be what we call a responsible skeptic. And that person is designated ahead of time. their job in that board meeting is to be a bit skeptical. Now, I think you have to be a little careful about always having a person who's always skeptical. I don't think I want a board member who every time something comes up, they raise their eyebrow, and you wonder what they're thinking. I think everybody ought to be a little skeptical at some time. And the main thing is if they don't understand something they need to ask.   Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas Urban Strategies   Connect Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Tommy's LinkedIn Profile Lisa Trevino Cummin's LinkedIn Profile  

Do you feel like your personal growth is in a frozen state? This episode features leadership expert Tami Heim, the CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance. She highlights the importance of learning leaders for the benefit not only of the leader but also their organization. Find full show notes here: https://bit.ly/337tamiheim Share the love. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate it on Apple Podcasts and write a brief review. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-flourishing-culture-podcast/id1060724960?mt=2   By doing so, you will help spread our podcast to more listeners, and thereby help more Christian workplaces learn to build flourishing cultures. Follow our Host, Al Lopus, on Twitter https://twitter.com/allopus  Follow our Host, Al Lopus, on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/allopus/ Email our host at info@workplaces.org  

Scott A. Shuford Founder & Chief Engagement Officer, FrontGateScott is an Expert in creating Engagement, connecting the dots between people and people, and people and ideas. He is also a Conceptual Architect able to see patterns and trends that others do not, and then originating systems and processes to create an advantage. Scott graduated with a B.S. in Business - Marketing from San Jose State University as the outstanding male graduating senior from the School of Business in 1989 and has been involved in marketing ever since. He is the Founder and Chief Engagement Officer of FrontGate Media: the largest internet & event media group and marketing service delivering the culture-engaged Faith & Family-values audience. He has been featured in ADWEEK, and as a speaker at the Christian Leadership Alliance, NAMM Shows, Biola Media Conference, and more. FrontGate Media creates relationships for organizations with their target audiences through their more than 15 million email subscribers, 25 million page views/mo., and 600,000+ event attendees. FrontGate also creates and manages Social Media, Public Relations and Pay Per Click strategies for ministries and companies. Scott and the company play a key role in the success of non-profits, publishers/authors, movie studios, record labels/artists and more. The firm has been honored by World Vision at their #1 emedia partner, six times. FrontGate Media has been honored by their agency peers with two WebAwards for Standard of Excellence in the categories for Marketing Overall & Faith-based, and was named the #1 site in the faith-based category of the Internet Advertising Competition in 2013 and 2011. Follow Scott A. Shuford on Twitter, Facebook or LinkedIn. FrontGate: Your Gateway to the Christian Audience. http://www.FrontGateMedia.comSpecialties: Digital media, event sponsorship, advertising, marketing, public relations, social media, pay per click, and sales.Burning America: In the Best Interest of the Children?Mick, The Doctor of Digital, Smith mick.smith@wsiworld.comBurning America: In the Best Interest of the Children?https://burning-america.comAmazon: https://www.amazon.com/G-Mick-Smith/e/B0B59X5R79Also at Barnes & Noble, Walmart, and TargetLeave a message for The Doctor of Digital:https://podinbox.com/thedoctorofdigitalpodcastInstagram: burningamericacommunityPatreon burningamericacommunity:https://www.patreon.com/SmithConsultingWSITheDoctorofDigitalPodcastListen, subscribe, share, and positively review The Aftermath:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aftermath-the-epidemic-of-divorce-custody-and-healing/id1647001828Substack:https://micksmith.substack.com/Commercials Voice Talent ||https://www.spreaker.com/user/7768747/track-1-commercialsNarratives Voice Talenthttps://www.spreaker.com/user/7768747/track-2-narrativesDo you want a free competitive analysis for your business?https://marketing.wsiworld.com/free-competitive-analysis?utm_campaign=Mick_Smith_Podcast&utm_source=SpreakerMake an Appointment:https://app.hubspot.com/meetings/mick-smithBe sure to subscribe, like, & review The Doctor of Digital™ PodcastSign up for the Doctor Up Your Life courseFacebook || Instagram || Twitter || LinkedIn || YouTubehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/gmicksmith/

Show Notes   Today I will be chatting with my good friend, John Pearson, who calls himself a master, but not like you might think. John calls himself a master of mistake-making. Yikes! Just a bit on John Pearson… John is a board governance and management consultant from San Clemente, California. He served more than 30 years as a nonprofit ministry CEO, 25 of those years as the CEO of three national/international associations, including The Willow Creek Association and Christian Management Association (now Christian Leadership Alliance). John is also the author 10 books on board governance and leadership development, with an emphasis on leadership at the highest levels in an organization. With that, let's welcome author, CEO, consultant, and non-profit guru, John Pearson. LINKS For more on John Pearson visit his website at https://www.managementbuckets.com/about  

To fall or be brought down by temptation is not Christian, but human. We all fall at one time or another. Brian Kreeger was no different. But he felt he had failed God as well as his wife...This is one not to miss as we dive deep into what happened and how he and his marriage recovered.Brian Kreeger is an author, speaker, and nonprofit consultant. In 2012, he founded a faith-based free health clinic that served as a vehicle to share Christ's love through primary healthcare in an urban, poverty-stricken setting. After growing the organization significantly in four years, Brian experienced his own leadership fall due to the pressures of his work and his own human weakness. Author of "The Courageous Ask: A Proactive Approach to Prevent the Fall of Christian Nonprofit Leaders." He has served on numerous nonprofit boards and have been in numerous leadership positions. He spent 28 years managing grocery stores. After about 20 years  he was called to open a Faith-Based Free Health Clinic in his city. After 4 years of successful operation, he started to struggle with leadership, loss of true identity and loneliness/isolation. He fell during that period out of his own human weakness. Recognized through the questioning of a board member that besides human weakness, there are inherent parts of leadership that tempt us toward stumbling blocks that many succumb to. His book recognizes that those surrounding a leader, can see a fall coming. His book and message empowers leaders, and those around them, to do something when they see it and encourages a proactive approach to prevent it. He holds nonprofit leadership and board consulting certificates from Duke University and Boardsource and is working with the Christian Leadership Alliance. Find him at www.briankreeger.com Support the show

Did you know one-third of your life will be spent at work? That's 90,000 hours over the course of a lifetime. And that's a lot of hours. So, of course, you want to spend that time in a healthy environment. Al Lopus would call it a flourishing workplace. Al is the cofounder and CEO of the Best Christian Workplaces Institute and author of the new book, “Road to Flourishing: Eight Keys to Boost Employee Engagement and Well-Being.” He works to provide research-based measurement tools and strategic advisory services to help Christian organizations set the standard as the best, most effective workplaces in the world. He serves on the advisory council of the Christian Leadership Alliance, having previously served as a board member. And he is on the show to share the research on flourishing workplaces and how to get there, including more than a few tangible tips on the eight key drivers for a healthy workplace culture. EPISODE SHOWNOTES: Read more.  WHAT'S YOUR CAUSE? Take our quiz. STUDY SCRIPTURE. Get inside the collection. GATHER WITH CARING MOMS. Join the group. BE INSPIRED. Follow us on Instagram. FIGHT FOR GOOD. Give to The Salvation Army.

Leadership Podcast: Conversations FROM leaders TO leaders in this post-pandemic age.  Today, we are with Dr. Arthur Satterwhite III -Dr. Satterwhite is a recognized voice on diversity and leadership. He holds a Doctorate in Strategic Leadership, a Master's in Religious Education, and a Bachelor's in Business/Marketing. As a consultant and speaker, he has helped communities around the world through inspiration, training, and strategic, consultative support. Dr. Satterwhite currently serves as the Vice President of Diversity, Belonging & Strategy at Young Life and as an adjunct professor at Regent University. Additionally, Dr. Satterwhite also serves on a host of boards and advisory committees for several local and global organizations including Christian Leadership Alliance, Young Life's Northeast Division, and more.Download The 6 Questions Worksheet: https://highpurposepractice.com/wp-co...Connect With Us!Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thehighpurpo...Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/highpurpose...TikTok:https://www.tiktok.com/@highpurposepr...LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-mcco...Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6b2ilLT...Resources:Cultural Intelligence: https://tinyurl.com/2n7j2kysThe Serving Leader Book: 

The High Purpose Leadership Podcast: Conversations FROM leaders TO leaders in this post-pandemic age.  Today Mike is talking to Dr. Arthur L. Satterwhite III Dr. Satterwhite is a recognized voice on diversity and leadership. He holds a Doctorate in Strategic Leadership, a Master's in Religious Education, and a Bachelor's in Business/Marketing. As a consultant and speaker, he has helped communities around the world through inspiration, training, and strategic, consultative support. Dr. Satterwhite currently serves as the Vice President of Diversity, Belonging & Strategy at Young Life and as an adjunct professor at Regent University. Additionally, Dr. Satterwhite also serves on a host of boards and advisory committees for several local and global organizations including Christian Leadership Alliance, Young Life's Northeast Division, and more.Cultural Intelligence Journey

This episode was recorded on June 6th, 2022. In this episode, Tammy Peterson welcomes guest, Phyllis Hendry, to discuss how the model life of Jesus transforms the human spirit into its fullness. As such, they speak on the importance of reaching the best version of yourself through solitude, forgiveness, and pursuing spirit-led values. For nearly two decades, Phyllis has served as the inaugural President and CEO of Lead Like Jesus, a global leadership ministry. She is currently an author and works as an itinerant speaker around the globe; as well as a consultant for national and international leaders. Find more from Phyllis on Christian Leadership Alliance: https://christianleadershipalliance.org/staff/phyllis-hennecy-hendry-2/ Phyllis' book, Lead Like Jesus: https://www.kenblanchardbooks.com/book/lead-like-jesus-revisited/#:~:text=Lead%20Like%20Jesus%20Revisited%20is,workplaces%2C%20churches%2C%20and%20communities. Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/phyllishhendry Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/phyllishendryhalverson/

In this interview from the most recent Outcome's Conference, we talk with Rich Stearns, the President Emeritus of World Vision, about keeping your marriage and your faith strong, leading with values, and what a thriving ministry looks like. As to this last bit, Rich relates thriving in faith and ministry to the core mission of World Vision: to restore the dignity of the poor and bring hope to the hopeless. Isn't this what we should all be doing? When we work to bring dignity and hope to everyone in our sphere of influence, our teams, organizations, and clients thrive.Plus, Rich discusses his new book Lead Like It Matters to God: Values-Driven Leadership in a Success-Driven World, which was selected as the Christian Leadership Alliance book of the year. Surrender and sacrifice are just two of the 17 values that he outlines in this new book. Rich's writing style is easy and the lessons are long lasting – be sure to pick up a copy today!Guests: Rich StearnsMinistry/ Workplace: World Vision

Host: Steve Macchia, Guest: John Pearson “Once you taste spiritual discernment, you won't want to go back to the old way of decision-making.” –John Pearson John Pearson is a leadership and management consultant, who formerly served as CEO of the Willow Creek Association, Christian Camp and Conference Association, and Christian Leadership Alliance. His “Weekly Staff Meeting” email reviews at least one book per week, including The Discerning Life (sign up at www.managementbuckets.com). He shares with us heart-warming stories about how his life has been transformed by spiritual discernment. He reminds us of the importance of having people on our leadership teams who understand discernment and want to respond to God's desires and hear God's voice, urging us to focus on depth instead of #'s. Board Prayer: You can download the Board Prayer John mentions in this episode via the show notes page on the website here. Join the conversation about spiritual discernment as a way of life at www.LeadershipTransformations.org and consider participation in our online and in-person program offerings. Additional LTI spiritual formation resources can be found at www.SpiritualFormationStore.com and www.ruleoflife.com and www.healthychurch.net.

What can nonprofit and business leaders learn from bookstores in the dot-com boom, publishers, and the world of nonprofit leadership? Tami Heim serves as the president and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance. She's been on both the cause and brand side of the fence, spending the bulk of her career in retail and publishing - as president of Borders bookstores, EVP and chief publishing officer for Thomas Nelson Publishers, and in the world of marketing and branding at an agency. For the past decade, she has led the Christian Leadership Alliance, which is dedicated to helping train, equip, and connect leaders. In the episode, we discuss: Three things that customers want Helping your people understand their purpose How Borders responded to the Amazon threat She then served as EVP and chief publishing officer for Thomas Nelson Publishers, before diving into the world of marketing and branding at an agency. She's spent the last nearly decade as president and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance, so she really has had a front-row seat to leadership from both the commercial retail and publishing world, and now in nonprofit leadership. I first heard about Tami when she joined the Christian Leadership Alliance, and a number of years later I was asked to join the board, so I've gotten to know Tami much more over the past few years. She's a passionate, dynamic leader, and it's been a huge blessing to see her leadership and the lessons she's learned put into practice. The question for today is, what can we learn from the worlds of retail, publishing, and nonprofit leadership? Listen in to find out. Christian Leadership Alliance – https://christianleadershipalliance.org/ Outcomes Conference – https://outcomesconference.org/ Tami Heim – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamiheim/

"Trust is the bedrock. Out of good trust comes productive conflict management, clarity on goals and objectives, people feel like they can speak into something, and you begin to see outcomes. Outcomes that really are transforming a leader. Transforming your organization. Transforming communities. And now we're even witnessing how it's transforming nations."Michael goes "Behind the Seal" with Tami Heim, President/CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance, to discuss the pivotal connection between Christ-centered leadership and trust.CLA Outcomes Conference: https://outcomesconference.orgChristian Leadership Alliance: https://christianleadershipalliance.orgSubscribe wherever you get your podcasts: https://www.ecfa.org/podcastWatch the video version: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheECFA=========================ECFA Links:========================= ChurchEXCEL (Free Resources): https://www.ecfa.church/ChurchExcel.aspx Become accredited: https://www.ecfa.org/JoinECFA.aspx Seven Standards of Responsible Stewardship: https://www.ecfa.org/Standards.aspx About ECFA: https://www.ecfa.org/About.aspx =========================Connect With Us:========================= Church and Nonprofit eNewsletter: http://eepurl.com/lekpf Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/accountability LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/evangelical-council-for-financial-accountability/ Podcast: https://www.ecfa.org/podcast =========================Please be sure to LIKE, SUBSCRIBE, and turn on NOTIFICATIONS. Thanks again for watching!=========================Disclosure: This video is provided as general educational information and with the understanding that ECFA is not rendering legal, accounting, or other professional advice or service. Professional advice on specific issues should be sought from an accountant, lawyer, or other professional. Opinions presented are those of the speakers and not necessarily the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.Video Topics: leadership, church, Christian, Christ, God, bible, scripture, church plant, missions, ministry, mission, congregation, worship, money, giving, tithing, tithe, give, finances, financial accountability, governance, stewardship, budgeting, budget, podcast, nonprofits, nonprofit, audit, transparency, trust

This episode features a special presentation from Heather Day, Barnabas Foundation's director of marketing, which took place at the Christian Leadership Alliance conference in 2021. Listen in as Heather discusses the powerful ways that donor stories can inspire giving and the proven approach that helps supporters tell their stories.

Richard Stearns is president emeritus of World Vision US, where he served as president for twenty years, traveling more than three million miles as an advocate for the world's poor. Before leading the Christian relief and development organization, he was a corporate CEO at both Parker Brothers and Lenox. His bestselling book The Hole in Our Gospel was named the 2010 Christian Book of the Year. He also wrote Unfinished, as well as two books with his wife, Reneé—a children's Bible storybook, God's Love For You, and a 90-day devotional, He Walks Among Us. Through his work with World Vision and beyond, Stearns has served as a prophetic voice, calling on the American church to respond to the AIDS pandemic in the early 2000s and later raising awareness of the global refugee crisis and global poverty. As a thought leader, he has appeared regularly in media outlets such as Christianity Today, FOX News, CNN, NPR, Charisma News, and Relevant magazine. Among the honors Stearns received for his humanitarian service are five honorary doctoral degrees, the Julia Vadala Taft Outstanding Leadership Award from InterAction, and the Christian Leadership Alliance's highest honor. Stearns holds a BA in neurobiology from Cornell University and an MBA from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. He and his wife, Reneé, have five adult children and six grandchildren, and live in Bellevue, Washington. Episode Talking Points Becoming the CEO of Parker Brothers at age 33 Early success Getting fired from multiple positions How God uses our pasts to prepare us for the future Being the President of World Vision for twenty years What real leadership looks like Resources: Lead Like it Matters to God The Hole in Our Gospel --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/the-monday-christian/support

Tough Talk Christian Radio with Host Tony Gambone and Special Guest Brian Kreeger: Brian Kreeger is an author, speaker, and nonprofit consultant. In 2012, he founded a faith-based free health clinic that served as a vehicle to share Christ's love through primary healthcare in an urban, poverty-stricken setting. Though he had no experience founding a nonprofit or running a health clinic, Brian wanted to make a meaningful impact on his community while spreading the Christian message. After growing the organization significantly in 4 years, Brian suffered his own leadership fall due to the pressures of his work and his own human weakness. Inspired by his own experience, he decided to use his mistakes and his position as a restored fallen leader for the glory of God and help others while they work hard to impact the world around them. Brian has served on the boards of several prominent local nonprofits in various capacities. He has been awarded the Martin Luther King Jr. Image Award by the Black Minister's Association in his area, as well as the Dale Carnegie Highest Level of Achievement Award. Brian earned a Nonprofit Leadership Certificate from Duke University and has earned his Nonprofit Board Consulting Certificate from BoardSource and soon will be a Credentialed Christian Nonprofit Leader by the Christian Leadership Alliance.  Brian lives in Central Pennsylvania, with his wife Dawn, two grown children, and three grandchildren, where he enjoys golfing and cycling. He is a York Federal Fellow and proud Rotarian. briankreeger.com

Richard Stearns joins the pod to talk about his new book, Lead Like it Matters to God. In the conversation, we talk about how success can become an idol, the difference between faithfulness and failure, and how churches can better connect what happens on in worship on Sunday to what happens during the workweek on Monday. Richard Stearns is president emeritus of World Vision US, where he served as president for twenty years, traveling more than three million miles as an advocate for the world's poor. Before leading the Christian relief and development organization, he was a corporate CEO at both Parker Brothers and Lenox. His bestselling book The Hole in Our Gospel was named the 2010 Christian Book of the Year.  Among the honors Stearns received for his humanitarian service are five honorary doctoral degrees, the Julia Vadala Taft Outstanding Leadership Award from InterAction, and the Christian Leadership Alliance's highest honor.  He and his wife, Reneé, have five adult children and six grandchildren, and live in Bellevue, Washington.

“People who don't take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year,” says Peter Drucker. “People who do take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year.” In other words, one way or another, you're going to make mistakes. The only question is whether you make them well. In this episode of the Influence Podcast, I'm talking to John Pearson about how to make mistakes well. I'm George P. Wood, executive editor of Influence magazine and your host. John Pearson served more than 30 years as a nonprofit CEO at organizations such as the Christian Camp and Conference Association, the Global Leadership Network of the Willow Creek Association, and the Christian Leadership Alliance. He is author, most recently, of Mastering Mistake-Making: My 25 Memorable Mistakes — and What I Learned. ----- This episode of the Influence Podcast is brought to you by My Healthy Church, distributors of Bible Engagement Project. Most people have access to the Bible, but few regularly engage with it. Bible Engagement Project equips churches with digital Bible study resources to help people of all ages read and understand Scripture so they can become more like Jesus and live radically changed lives. Bible Engagement Project is available in both English and Spanish. Visit BibleEngagementProject.com to learn more.

I welcome Christine Talbot of World Vision to the podcast today as we discuss her story of being a Human Resources professional. Christine joined World Vision six years ago in 2015 as the Senior Vice President of Human Resources, but she is someone who has worn a lot of different hats over the years! Christine also works with the Christian Leadership Alliance where she serves on the Board of Directors, and she even went on a recent bicycle trip during which she rode through the entire state of Florida in only one day! There are therefore so many things that we could talk about, but in this episode of the podcast, we are focusing mostly on how to have a successful collaboration between a search consultant and a Human Resources executive. She also shares tidbits of her life story such as the major transition that took place in her life when she became a Christian as well as details about what transitioning between organizations was like for her. Christine enthusiastically reflects on her reasons for being so excited about her role with World Vision and with her involvement with the Christian Leadership Alliance, talking about the differences between standard leadership and leadership of a Christian organization. She also discusses her hiring process and her leadership style and how she worked during the COVID-19 pandemic. Christine closes by offering some helpful advice to anyone looking to pursue a similar career path as hers, encouraging them to get exposure to all of the different facets of Human Resources before deciding which facet you want to pursue. I thank Christine for taking time out of her day to chat with me. It was so good to talk with her about her story and share this conversation with her. Join me in the next episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership, and don't forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode! I also encourage you to share the podcast with a friend who would also be likely to get something out of it!   Time Stamps [1:16] – This episode's guest is Christine Talbot of World Vision! [3:14] – Christine discusses what happened in her life after becoming a Christian. [5:20] – There were three opportunities that came along simultaneously for Christine, and she reveals why she chose World Vision. [7:43] – Christine admits that she underestimated what her transition would be like. [9:40] – We learn what the biggest surprise was when she moved to a Christian organization. [11:17] – Christine explains what the Christian Leadership Alliance is and what they do. [13:03] – Christine describes what's different and what's similar about recruiting at World Vision. [16:03] – Christine reveals what she makes sure that a search partner has. [17:31] – Christine considers herself a bridge between her external partner and her internal client. [20:16] – We learn more about Christine's interviewing approach when she hires people. [22:01] – Christine expounds upon the faith questions that she asks in interviews at World Vision. [24:08] – Christine describes her leadership style. [25:32] – We hear about what Christine had to grapple with in relation to COVID-19. [27:18] – Christine offers advice for people working in a position similar to hers.   Links and Resources JobfitMatters – Website World Vision - Website Christian Leadership Alliance - Website  

What are the trends to focus on in the next few months? In today's episode, we discuss key trends that are impacting the Christian workplace. Listen in as Tami Heim identifies the top three Christian workplace issues leaders are facing. Suppose I told you that right now, there are three noticeable trends that point to three barriers preventing your organization from fulfilling its outcomes.   Name and overcome these barriers, and your outcomes become more within reach. My guest can help you do just that. I'm delighted to welcome Tami Heim, President, and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance. Tami, always great to visit with you. Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Podcast.  Find full show notes here http://bit.ly/tamiheimcla Share the love. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate it on Apple Podcasts and write a brief review. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-flourishing-culture-podcast/id1060724960?mt=2  By doing so, you will help spread our podcast to more listeners, and thereby help more Christian workplaces learn to build flourishing cultures. Follow our Host, Al Lopus, on Twitter https://twitter.com/allopus Follow our Host, Al Lopus, on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/allopus/ Email our host at info@bcwinstitute.org 

Barnabas Foundation's Director of Marketing, Heather Day, recently presented the workshop, "A Collaborative Roadmap to Donor Stories" at the Christian Leadership Alliance's 2021 Outcomes conference in Orlando, FL. Watch as Heather presents research that shows donor stories are a powerful way to inspire giving and gives a proven approach that pairs the fundraisers who know their supporters with the creatives gifted at telling their stories.

Shannon Litton thought she'd spend her whole career working as an English teacher, but when she fell in love with marketing and kept moving forward with the opportunities presented to her, she eventually decided to start her own agency. Today, Shannon is president and CEO of 5by5, a marketing and digital agency which serves change makers and delivers messages with undeniable clarity, reach and results. 5by5 was named to the Inc 5000 list for 2018, 2019 and 2020, and it was named a Nashville Business Journal Best Place to Work in 2017 and 2018.  Shannon has worked on technology, social media, branding and communications for hundreds of organizations including the Christian Leadership Alliance, Amazima, LifeWay, the United Methodist Church and more. She's also a speaker on leadership, marketing, branding and business strategy. In This Episode: Shannon describes the unexpected career journey that led her to create 5by5. She also shares practical examples of what it looks like to put people first, give back as a business leader, and manage your schedule as a busy working mom. Episode Highlights: Taking the next best step (2:47) Managing your schedule as a working mom (11:28) Drawing inspiration from other women (22:22) The importance of off-boarding employees (27:04) Giving back as a business owner (32:26) Sponsor: This podcast is sponsored in part by Piccolo Marketing, providing outsourced marketing professionals for business owners.  Piccolo Marketing is our  go-to resource when it comes to comprehensive marketing strategies and execution. Learn more here.

SPONSORED BY PALM BEACH ATLANTIC UNIVERSITY, ORLANDO. Tami Heim leads the Christian Leadership, an organization that serves over 1200 non-profits ministries and churches, providing leadership and training. CLA is hosting the Outcomes Conference in Orlando this June, and Tami shares exciting facts about this gathering; also, Don Shenk brings news of a "hairy" fundraiser being utilized by TIDE, an international ministry for equipping, evangelism and discipleship. Don is the Executive Director.

Parachurch organizations are Christian faith-based organizations which carry out their mission usually independent of church oversight. Our guest on this episode of Christian Curious has a unique vantage point from which to understand what is happening in the evangelical, non-profit world during the pandemic. Tami Heim has been the president and CEO of Christian Leadership Alliance, the premier resource for professional nonprofit leadership development, since January 2012. She discusses her birds-eye view of what she sees going on in ministries in the era of the Coronavirus. 

This podcast series brings leaders like you the type of excellent leadership insights offered at the annual Outcomes Conference. In this episode we talk with Tami Heim, President and CEO of Christian Leadership Alliance and hear her thoughts on Christ-honoring leadership. Plus, we learn more about the history and vision of Christian Leadership Alliance. This episode is sponsored by iDonate. https://idonate.com/

Co-hosts DJ Chuang and Kenny Jahng talk about COVID19 Zoom fatigue, an oldie but goodie Zoom alternative, online video events, and the upcoming Outcomes Conference by Christian Leadership Alliance.11 Alternatives to ZoomWebex.comZoom.us316.Future.BibleChristianLeadershipAlliance.orgOutcomesConference.orgFuture.BibleGet.BibleLiked this episode? Help us by submitting a review on iTunes about the Future.Bible Podcast so more church technologists and leaders can discover these interviews and episodes. You can catch future episodes on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify and other podcast outlets, and be sure to keep up to date on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and our blog!

Another day at the Outcomes Conference, sponsored by the Christian Leadership Alliance, and another opportunity to highlight a world-changing ministry. “Lead Like Jesus” was our focus today, who's mission is to glorify God by inspiring and equipping people to lead like Jesus. The post “Lead Like Jesus” appeared first on iWork4Him Podcast.

Another day at the Outcomes Conference, sponsored by the Christian Leadership Alliance, and another opportunity to highlight a world-changing ministry. “Lead Like Jesus” was our focus today, who's mission is to glorify God by inspiring and equipping people to lead like Jesus.

Our friends at the Christian Leadership Alliance introduced us to Bryan Taylor of Cornerstone Management, an investment consulting firm that helps Christian non-profit organizations. Hear why the exist, how they're helping their clients and what you can take from their drive and vision. The post Faith and Finances appeared first on iWork4Him Podcast.

Our friends at the Christian Leadership Alliance introduced us to Bryan Taylor of Cornerstone Management, an investment consulting firm that helps Christian non-profit organizations. Hear why the exist, how they're helping their clients and what you can take from their drive and vision.

Joy Spriggs and John Rollins representing Christian Healthcare Ministries, and featured on iWork4Him thanks to the Christian Leadership Alliance, broke down their mission and purpose: to glorify God, show Christian love, and experience God's presence as Christians share each other's medical bills. The post Biblical Healthcare appeared first on iWork4Him Podcast.

Joy Spriggs and John Rollins representing Christian Healthcare Ministries, and featured on iWork4Him thanks to the Christian Leadership Alliance, broke down their mission and purpose: to glorify God, show Christian love, and experience God's presence as Christians share each other's medical bills.

Vonna Laue & Wes Willmer, representatives of the Delaware County Fireman's Association, were another pair of esteemed guests brought to us courtesy of the Christian Leadership Alliance, and the duo broke down the ins and outs of creating, maintaining and expanding a thriving non-profit.

Vonna Laue & Wes Willmer, representatives of the Delaware County Fireman's Association, were another pair of esteemed guests brought to us courtesy of the Christian Leadership Alliance, and the duo broke down the ins and outs of creating, maintaining and expanding a thriving non-profit. The post Non-Profit Excellence appeared first on iWork4Him Podcast.

Vonna Laue & Wes Willmer, representatives of the Delaware County Fireman's Association, were another pair of esteemed guests brought to us courtesy of the Christian Leadership Alliance, and the duo broke down the ins and outs of creating, maintaining and expanding a thriving non-profit. The post Non-Profit Excellence appeared first on iWork4Him Podcast.

Another day at the Outcomes Conference, sponsored by the Christian Leadership Alliance, and another opportunity to highlight a world-changing ministry. “Lead Like Jesus” was our focus today, who's mission is to glorify God by inspiring and equipping people to lead like Jesus. The post “Lead Like Jesus” appeared first on iWork4Him Podcast.

Our friends at the Christian Leadership Alliance introduced us to Bryan Taylor of Cornerstone Management, an investment consulting firm that helps Christian non-profit organizations. Hear why the exist, how they're helping their clients and what you can take from their drive and vision. The post Faith and Finances appeared first on iWork4Him Podcast.

Vonna Laue & Wes Willmer, representatives of the Delaware County Fireman's Association, were another pair of esteemed guests brought to us courtesy of the Christian Leadership Alliance, and the duo broke down the ins and outs of creating, maintaining and expanding a thriving non-profit.

Joy Spriggs and John Rollins representing Christian Healthcare Ministries, and featured on iWork4Him thanks to the Christian Leadership Alliance, broke down their mission and purpose: to glorify God, show Christian love, and experience God's presence as Christians share each other's medical bills.

Our friends at the Christian Leadership Alliance introduced us to Bryan Taylor of Cornerstone Management, an investment consulting firm that helps Christian non-profit organizations. Hear why the exist, how they're helping their clients and what you can take from their drive and vision.

Another day at the Outcomes Conference, sponsored by the Christian Leadership Alliance, and another opportunity to highlight a world-changing ministry. “Lead Like Jesus” was our focus today, who's mission is to glorify God by inspiring and equipping people to lead like Jesus.

Joy Spriggs and John Rollins representing Christian Healthcare Ministries, and featured on iWork4Him thanks to the Christian Leadership Alliance, broke down their mission and purpose: to glorify God, show Christian love, and experience God's presence as Christians share each other's medical bills. The post Biblical Healthcare appeared first on iWork4Him Podcast.

Catch this week's Future.Bible Podcast with our special guest, Tami Heim. Tami is the the president and CEO of Christian Leadership Alliance and she has served in this role since 2012. The Alliance equips and unites Christian nonprofit leaders with the focus on the business of ministry. It's a community where leaders invest in each other by providing resources and experiences that advanced God honoring excellence in all areas of ministry stewardship.In this podcast episode, some of the things Tami mentions are:The upcoming Outcomes Conference on April 16-18, 2019.What is Christian Leadership AllianceLeadership.Biblewww.christianleadershipalliance.orIf you enjoyed this episode, please share the Future.Bible Podcast with a friend or colleague. You can catch future episodes on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify and other podcast outlets.Websites mentioned: Leadership.Bible, www.christianleadershipalliance.orgContact information: tami.heim@christianleadershipalliance.org

How do you help ensure the effectiveness and impact of your organization? The answer is by building a healthy, flourishing, sustainable culture. And the way to do that is by knowing these six measures of leadership excellence that drive such a culture. Our guest today knows inspirational leadership inside and out. What she has to say about inspirational leadership could be golden and transformational for your culture. Today we have the pleasure of visiting with Tami Heim, President of Christian Leadership Alliance (CLA). CLA is equipping and uniting more than 6,000 mission-focused Christians who lead today's high-impact nonprofit ministries, churches, educational institutions and businesses. Tami has been actively involved in the CLA community for more than 6 years, and we have great respect for her. Find full show notes here   http://blog.bcwinstitute.org/s3e6-tami-heim-cla

Has the church fallen asleep at the wheel? I'm excited to welcome Carmen LaBerge to the podcast to talk about why it's time for Christians to re-engage in the culture and address the problems of our day by boldly—and lovingly—bringing God back into every conversation. About the Book:  Animosity, confrontation, confusion—from cable news right down to our kids' classrooms, Christians are waking up to a world very different from the one we once knew. We are quick to blame everyone else from Hollywood to Washington, but it is not the culture's fault God is sidelined.  If God is missing from the conversation, then it is because His people have failed to represent Him there. Christians have been far too silent for far too long, retreating out of fear of offending someone or the unpleasantness of stepping outside our comfort zone. When Christians have spoken up, too often it has not been in ways that honor Jesus. We have inserted our own opinion, obscuring the beauty and truth of the Gospel in favor of our political, ideological, or personal agenda. It's time for us to embrace our calling as Christ's ambassadors. To do that, we must be equipped to engage the world in ways that bring the mind of Christ to bear on the matters of the day. Carmen LaBerge's Speak the Truth seeks to give believers the confidence to speak the truth and the tools to re-engage in the culture and address the problems we are facing today by boldly—and lovingly—bringing God back into every conversation About the Author:  Carmen LaBerge is a writer, speaker and host of the daily Christian talk radio show The Reconnect as well as the President of the Presbyterian Lay Committee (PLC), a ministry that's been working to equip Christians for faithful witness for more than 50 years. Before becoming president of the PLC, she served in mainline Christian ministry for 17 years. Carmen is the founding Chairman of Common Ground Christian Network and a member of the board of directors of the National Association of Evangelicals. She also participates actively on the Mission America Coalition, the National Religious Broadcasters and the Christian Leadership Alliance. She lives outside of Nashville, TN with her husband Jim and family.  Connect with Carmen: ReconnectWithCarmen.com Facebook Twitter (@CarmenLaBerge) For additional show notes, visit ShaunTabatt.com/183.

If you're a CEO or other senior leader who answers to a board of directors, OR if you chair a board, OR if serve on a board of a Christian organization (pause) and if you want your board to be more effective to further and fulfill the unique work to which God has called your organization, church or business, then these next few minutes are just for you. And even if you're not directly involved with a board, you're in for a treat. We have the pleasure of visiting with two longtime friends and incredible Christian leaders. They're going to share with you some of their very best wisdom, experience, and stories from their new forth-coming book: Lessons From the Nonprofit Boardroom. Dan Busby is the president of the Evangelical Council of Financial Accountability—known of course as ECFA. Forty years of experience serving the Christ-centered church and nonprofit community. Prolific writer of eight books. Named by Nonprofit Times as one of the “50 Most Powerful Nonprofit Leaders” from 2010-2015. And with Dan . . . John Pearson, board governance and management consultant. Former CEO of Christian Camp and Conference Association, Willow Creek Association and Christian Management Association, now Christian Leadership Alliance. John's the author of Mastering the Management Buckets: 20 Critical Competencies for Leading Your Business or Nonprofit. Find full show notes here http://blog.bcwinstitute.org/s3-e11-john-pearson-dan-busby/  

In this episode, Al has the great pleasure of talking with longtime friend, colleague and board and leadership consultant John Pearson. Join us for this fun and far-reaching conversation that covers everything from great leadership books, to board governance best practices, and even how to infuse fun (or as John likes to call it, "hoopla") into your workplace culture. John's fingerprints are all over the founding of the Best Christian Workplaces Institute. Yet, he's known for so much more than that. For 25 combined years, he led Christian Camping International/USA (now Christian Camp and Conference Association), the Willow Creek Association, and Christian Management Association (now Christian Leadership Alliance). Today, he's a management and board governance consultant whose clients read like a who's who of respected ministry organizations. Find the full show notes at http://blog.bcwinstitute.org/s2-e26-john-pearson. 

What makes donors give?  Why are some nonprofit fundraising initiatives successful while others struggle and fail?   Tim Kachuriak, founder and Chief Innovation & Optimization Officer of NextAfter, looks to the web as a living laboratory to discover the answers to these questions and more.  NextAfter is a research and consulting firm that works with businesses, nonprofits and NGO's to help them grow their resource capacity.  Having gathered data from their research and consulting clients, some of the largest nonprofit organizations in the world, they are also now passing on this information to the 84% of nonprofits with revenue under $1M - specifically, how to attract, inspire and cultivate relationships with donors online. In this interview, Tim unpacks some of this data, by sharing with us the primary motivation behind why donors give, including the differences between what motivates millennials vs the baby boomer generation.  He also introduces an innovative model for consulting, that gives greater power to the clients.   Passionate, humble, and an avid learner, Tim will inspire and equip you to develop better marketing and communication avenues to reach more donors who would love to support your cause.   Key Takeaways  1) The web is perhaps the greatest behavioral laboratory that has ever existed 2) Millennials tend to give when they are inspired whereas baby boomers give out of obligation, duty, and a sense of responsibility 3) Giving is a way we can affect the change we want to see in the world 4) The act of giving offers people an opportunity to experience God's nature  5) Keep yourself inspired by reminding yourself every day why you're doing what you're doing - reflect on the stories where you made a difference Tim Kachuriak Bio Prior to founding NextAfter, Tim served as Senior Vice President of Innovation and Optimization for The Pursuant Group, and Vice President of Digital for KMA Direct Communications. During his career, Tim has consulted with a number of national and international nonprofits including The Heritage Foundation, Prison Fellowship International, Doctors Without Borders, Wycliffe Bible Translators, The George W. Bush Presidential Center, Moody Bible Institute, The Chuck Colson Center for Christian Worldview, as well as others. A nonprofit thought leader, Tim is the lead researcher and co-author of the Online Fundraising Scorecard, a contributing writer for Fundraising Success, CO+OP, and Outcomes magazines. Tim has trained organizations around the world as far away as Bangalore, India and Oslo, Norway and is a frequent speaker at national nonprofit conferences including Social Media for Nonprofits, Association of Fundraising Professionals, the Direct Marketing Association Non Profit Federation, the National Religious Broadcasters association, Missio-Nexus, and the Christian Leadership Alliance. A Western Pennsylvania native, Tim and his wife Rebecca currently live in Prosper, TX with their four children Max, Charlie, Gracie, and Joey. Connect With Tim & NextAfter If you are a large nonprofit organization looking to improve your fundraising abilities, contact Tim or one of his team members at www.NextAfter.com If you are a small nonprofit or planning to launch a fundraising initiative, access all of NextAfter's open source library of research at www.NextAfter.com You can also connect with Tim and his NextAfter team via social media at: Twitter: @digitaldonor @nextafter_ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/NextAfterInc LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/next-after LinkedIn (Tim Kachuriak): https://www.linkedin.com/in/timkachuriak  

Our podcast is on hiatus for a few weeks as we prepare to launch Season 2 in September. Today, we have one of the most popular episodes from our archives to share with you. Enjoy this listener favorite! As Christian leaders, how can we most effectively achieve our organizations' calling and purpose in these rapidly changing times? Today, Al is talking with Tami Heim, the President and CEO of Christian Leadership Alliance. Prior to CLA, Tami held key executive positions in Christian publishing after nearly 20 years as a Retail Industry executive, including a stint as the President of Borders. Listen in as Al and Tami cover a wide range of topics facing Christian leaders today. Find the full show notes at http://blog.bcwinstitute.org/encore-tami-heim-christian-leadership-alliance.

Creating organizational values is a key step in building a healthy culture. For any organization, a logical question arises: is there a biblical basis for building virtue-based values statements? At a recent Christian Leadership Alliance conference workshop, Dr. Richard Biery presented a Biblical concept from Micah 6:8 that guides us in establishing meaningful values in a workplace, Christian or not. Richard tells us to look at Micah 6:8 not as a list, but as a more complex integrated system. By understanding how the three characteristics mentioned in Micah 6:8 relate to each other, a very clear picture begins to emerge.