Podcast appearances and mentions of laura barringer

Marty Solomon and Brent Billings are joined by Mitch Lavender, longtime BEMA listener and group facilitator, and now Lead Campus Minister in Cincinnati with Impact Campus Ministries, about his experiences with a community dealing with the challenges of diversity and how that can lead to transition with family, friends, and faith.A Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer Special Guest: Mitch Lavender.

In keeping with his theme, Joe has been nature churching. We discuss his experiences so far, what makes something 'church', the importance of your spiritual trellis and whether some churches turn the tricycle of faith into a unicycle. Support the podcast Contact the podcast through your email machine Nick's Blog - episode notes Mentioned in this episode: Renovaré Podcast: Joe Davis and Nick Page — Disagreeing and Staying Friends Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, A Church Called Tov Johnny Uffington White Horse and Dragon Hill The Church of Tomorrow, John McGinley Liquid Church, Pete Ward

Meritocracy has become embedded in the American church. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Scot McKnight about why this is dangerous, how to notice the warning signs of a toxic church culture, the problems with being or following a narcissistic leader, and more. Scot McKnight is the co-author (with Laura Barringer) of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you've read the book and you'd like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Meritocracy has become embedded in the American church. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Scot McKnight about why this is dangerous, how to notice the warning signs of a toxic church culture, the problems with being or following a narcissistic leader, and more. Scot McKnight is the co-author (with Laura Barringer) of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you've read the book and you'd like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBdqZj2_gHA Can a church that's had a history of being toxic transform its culture and become truly healthy? Or, are churches like this doomed to repeat their history, despite efforts to change? This edition of The Roys Report features a talk from our recent Restore Conference by Laura Barringer. Laura and her father, theologian Scot McKnight, co-authored two best-selling books on identifying toxic church cultures and reforming them. Their first book, A Church Called Tov, identifies how many church cultures are failing in their mission to glorify God and be truly “tov”—the Hebrew word for good—and instead are harming people. Laura and Scot's second book, titled Pivot, deals with transformation. Can church structures, policies, and even relationships that were once oppressive turn into something tov, or good? This was the topic of Laura's talk at Restore in which she shared details and compelling stories of churches who have successfully made this change. Doing so is not easy, Laura says, but it's worth it. With more and more churches and ministries being exposed as abusive or corrupt, this topic is extremely relevant. Sometimes, after a bad leader is removed, churches want to change but don't know how. This talk helps chart the way. Guests Laura Barringer Laura Barringer is coauthor of A Church Called Tov as well as Pivot: The Priorities, Practices and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture. She previously co-authored the children's version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher's guide to accompany the book. A graduate of Wheaton College, Laura resides in the suburbs of Chicago with her husband Mark and their three beagles.  Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

CW: adverse religious experiences, church-related trauma, narcissistic leadersDr. Scot McKnight is Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary and Laura Barringer is an author and a Kindergarten Teacher.In this episode, they summarize their two recent books (A Church Called Tov and Pivot). In the first part, in the light of abuse related to Willow Creek Church and the Southern Baptist Convention, they describe harmful dynamics and harmful responses when abuse is brought to light. And in the second part, our primary focus for the episode, they put forward a vision for transforming church cultures. They also give tips for identifying unhealthy cultures, addressing those unhealthy cultures, and understanding deconstruction in light of these things.Team members on the episode from The Two Cities include: Dr. John Anthony Dunne and Dr. Madison Pierce.Series Disclaimer: This series explores the concept of “trauma,” its sources, and its expressions from a range of perspectives. Some of our guests are licensed mental health professionals; some are those with formative experiences of trauma; and others are those who explore trauma through various theoretical frameworks. We hope that this series provides useful information to all that enables them to begin to be trauma-informed and to love others and themselves better. Our series is by no means meant to replace the important work of one-on-one time with a trauma-informed professional. Get bonus content on Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you're feeling frustrated and helpless in your efforts to promote cultural and linguistic accuracy in the church, despite taking actions like advocating for diverse representation and using inclusive language, then you are not alone!Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scott McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. But when it comes to women in ministry and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.In this episode, you will be able to:Recognize the value of cultural understanding and meticulous translation in the proper interpretation of the Bible.Delve into the intricate dynamics of power within the church and their varied consequences.Learn how to address spiritual abuse effectively and foster a support system for survivors.Embrace the core principles of good leadership and the altruistic use of power in ministry.Highlight the vital insights shared by women scholars and survivors for a more inclusive faith community.My special guest is Dr. Scot McKnightMeet Dr. Scot McKnight, a renowned New Testament professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois and a prolific author with a passion for diving deep into the cultural context of biblical texts. As a guest on Lori Adams-Brown's podcast, Scot brings his expertise in Bible translation and interpretation, having written over 90 books, including widely-read titles like "A Church Called Tov" and "The Blue Parakeet." A dedicated advocate for abuse survivors and a favorite professor among his students, Dr. McKnight's insights are sure to enrich your understanding of the Bible."I believe in the power of a more literal translation."- Dr. Scot McKnightThe resources mentioned in this episode are:Check out Dr. Scott McKnight's new translation of the New Testament, The Second Testament.Subscribe to Dr. McKnight's newsletterConsider taking Greek classes with Dr. McKnight.Purchase Dr. McKnight's books, including A Church Called Tov, The King Jesus Gospel, and The Blue Parakeet.Follow Dr. McKnight's blog, The Jesus Creed.Follow him on Twitter: @scotmcknightRead Dr. McKnight's contributions as general editor of the Dictionary of Paul and His Letters.Explore the Everyday Bible series, including the First Testament by John Golden Gay and The Kingdom New Testament by Tom Wright.The Way of JesusGood leadership in the church involves recognizing, using, and sharing power in ways that are faithful to the teachings of Jesus. Followers of Jesus should strive to cultivate humility, compassion, and an attitude of serving others, often forgoing one's power to benefit those who are more vulnerable. Dr. Scot McKnight, during the podcast interview, mentioned several examples of power abuse in the church, contrasting them with the biblical teachings of Jesus. He specifically cited Romans 16 and Philippians 2:1-11, which emphasize the concept of Kenosis – the act of laying down one's power to serve others. McKnight believes that understanding this concept and applying it in the context of leadership and church relationships is essential to embodying the way of Jesus and countering the negative aspects of power dynamics in churches."Words deeply matter, and those words can wound and they can hurt for a long time." - Dr. Scot McKnightWomen in MinistryAn accurate translation plays a crucial role in recognizing and valuing the contributions of women in the early church. Being mindful of the words used to describe women's roles is crucial as language can shape our understanding and reinforce stereotypes or power dynamics within the church. By translating words and phrases accurately, women's contributions to the early church can be acknowledged and celebrated more fairly. During the conversation, Dr. McKnight emphasized the importance of using accurate translation to highlight women's roles in the church, such as translating the word Phoebe to mean "deacon" rather than "servant." He also mentioned the prevalence of false narratives and power dynamics in church culture that can negatively affect how people perceive women's roles in ministry. By ensuring accurate translations, he believes we can better acknowledge, value, and empower women working in the church.Keeping Names AuthenticOne of the essential aspects of ensuring cultural authenticity in a Bible translation is the use of names as close as possible to what they would have sounded in the original language. This offers a sense of novelty and unfamiliarity for readers, prompting reflection on the context and culture surrounding the text. By preserving the original names, readers can gain deeper insights into the characters and their significance in the narrative. Dr. McKnight uses transliteration in his translation, meaning that names in the Bible are rendered more authentically, closer to their original language. For instance, Yakobos is used instead of the English equivalent, James. Dr. McKnight argued during the podcast that using such authentic names invites readers to reconsider the context and culture of the Bible's characters, creating a more engaging and meaningful reading experience."We need to be careful with the words we use for translations, because if we don't get it right, it can hurt people." - Dr. Scot McKnightTimestamped summary of this episode:00:00:02 - Introduction,Dr. Scott McKnight is an advocate in the survivor community and a professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois. He has written over 90 books and blogs at The Jesus Creed. He talks about his new translation of the New Testament, the Second Testament, which he made more literal to help people understand the ancient context of the text.00:06:01 - Reason for New Translation,McKnight believes that the capacity to translate Greek into English has reached near perfection, but people miss things when they try to make it a natural English equivalent. He wants to show people the differences between the original Greek sentence and the English sentence.00:11:37 - Distinctives of the Second Testament,McKnight was inspired to translate the New Testament after reading John Golden Gay's translation of the Old Testament. One of the distinctives is the transliteration of names, which may be confusing but creates an authentic ancient context. McKnight's translation sometimes sounds clunky because it is formally equivalent, but that helps readers slow down and think.00:14:57 - Keeping Names Authentic,The Second Testament transliterates names to help readers understand the ancient context. This makes the text feel foreign and distant, which is appropriate, as it helps readers dig deeper into cultural exegesis. McKnight believes that being familiar with the text can be a hindrance to truly understanding it.00:15:47 - Familiarity with the Text,Familiarity with the text can sometimes00:16:13 - The Impact of Names on Reading,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the impact of names on reading and how different names can lead readers to think differently and understand a text in a new way. He suggests that using the original Greek text can take readers into the first-century Christian world and help them understand the text in a new light.00:18:10 - Women in Ministry,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the controversy around women pastors, using the example of the lack of pastors in the Bible. He suggests that titles such as Piscopos, Diaconos, and Presbutaros were used instead. He also refers to Romans 16, which mentions several women involved in church ministry, including an apostle and a deacon.00:22:54 - Multiculturalism in the Early Church,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the multicultural and multiracial nature of the early church, with a mix of slaves and free people, men and women, and Jews and Gentiles. He draws attention to the several women mentioned in Romans 16, performing ministries that today would be called pastoring.00:27:39 - The Importance of Language,Dr. Scot McKnight emphasizes the importance of language and translation, pointing out that the wrong translation can hurt people. He uses the example of King James' Bible, which made choices to keep its subjects subdued. He also discusses the power dynamics in evangelical churches and how they favor men and certain behaviors that have become manly.00:33:10 - The Four Types of Power,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the four types of power: power over, power to influence, power with, and power for. He explains how power over is the most corrupted form of power and how it is prevalent in the business world, sports, and even the church. He also highlights the importance of using power for the good of others and sharing power with others.00:35:25 - The Power With,Dr. McKnight delves deeper into the concept of power with and how it involves the willingness to share power with someone else to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome. He cites his experience of co-authoring a book with a young man and how they worked together to create a cohesive product.00:36:53 - Power For,Dr. McKnight discusses the last type of power, power for, which involves using one's power for the good of another person. He cites Jesus Christ as an example of this type of power, as He came not to be served but to serve and give His life for others.00:40:00 - Dealing with Spiritual Abuse,Dr. McKnight advises people who are experiencing spiritual abuse or know someone who is to first become healthy enough to handle the blowback that comes with going public. He also stresses the importance of having a support system and following the proper protocols or guidelines for reporting abuse. Lastly, he emphasizes the need for patience and resilience as it may take a long time to see change.00:50:50 - Abusing Power in Churches,Dr. Scott McKnight discusses how some pastors and church leaders abuse their power, particularly with vulnerable members such as children. He encourages readers to follow his work in understanding power dynamics and using power for good, especially with survivors of abuse.00:52:00 - The Way of Jesus,Dr. Scott McKnight emphasizes the way of Jesus in using power for good and elevating others. He references the Kenosis passage in Philippians 2 and encourages listeners to learn how to understand and wield their power for the benefit of others.00:53:38 - Call to Action,Lori Adams-Brown issues a call to action for listeners to use their power for good, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages finding a survivor and listening to their story while respecting their autonomy and using power to elevate their voice and support them.00:54:48 - TovLori Adams-Brown references Dr. Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer's book, A Church Called TOV, and highlights the importance of using power in tov, or goodness, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages listeners to find ways to support survivors and let them lead the way in how they want to share their stories and move forward.00:56:03 - Conclusion,Lori Adams-Brown thanks listeners for their work in making a difference and encourages them to read Dr. Scot McKnight's book, Second Testament. She also hints at future episodes with Dr. Scot McKnight and his new book with Laura Barringer as a follow up to A Church Called TOV.Appreciate the role of cultural context and precise translation in interpreting the Bible effectively.Comprehend the various power dynamics at play within the church and their implications.Recognize signs of spiritual abuse, ensuring adequate support for survivors.Grasp the crucial need for responsible leadership and the ethical use of power.Discover the valuable contributions of female scholars and survivors in the ministry.Realize the importance of context and accurate translation in unlocking the true meaning of biblical passages.Uncover diversities in church power dynamics and their impacts on members.Identify the nature of spiritual abuse and the ways to help survivors heal.Understand the significance of virtuous leadership and the fair exercise of power for communal benefit.Shed light on the often-overlooked perspectives of women scholars and abuse survivors in ministry.https://www.aworldofdifferencepodcast.comhttps://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifferencehttps://www.instagram.com/aworldof.difference/https://www.facebook.com/A-World-of-Difference-613933132591673/https://www.twitter.com/@awodpodhttps://www.youtube.com/@aworldofdifferencehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aworldofdifference/

Links to things mentioned:Partner with us at Good Fruit Faith, an initiative of the Bosko Foundation, as we help impact future church leaders with our data and our message (tax receiptable within the U.S.): https://secure.qgiv.com/for/goodfruitsJoin our Patreon for as little as $5 a month and get access to unfiltered podcasts! https://patreon.com/baremarriageFind Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer's book Pivot: https://amzn.to/3ToOKiV, along with their first book together A Church Called Tov: https://amzn.to/41nRsrdOur first podcast together about their book A Church Called Tov: https://baremarriage.com/2021/04/podcast-a-church-called-tov-and-matthew-18/Find Scot McKnight's New Testament bible study series: https://amzn.to/46Zc5uWLaura Barringer on Threads: https://www.threads.net/@lauraebarringerScot McKnight on Threads: https://www.threads.net/@scotandkrisMe on Threads! https://www.threads.net/@sheilagregoire

Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer are the authors of the book Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture (you might remember them from their first book, “A Church Called Tov”). In this episode of the Reclamation Podcast, we will focus the conversation on the issue of character: its relationship to power, the damage to churches when their leaders do not reflect Christ-like character and more. Listen in to learn more of what it looks like to prioritize character over charisma. To look at Laura and Scot's book, click the following link. https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Scot-McKnight/dp/149646673X/ref=monarch_sidesheet ---------------- Support this work by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.beemboldened.com/donate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠to make a tax-deductible donation (formerly Naomi Wright Ministries / NWM).

Dr. Will Ryan and Dr. Matt interview Dr. Scot McKnight about his newest book- Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture. Order the Book here: https://a.co/d/9R6hqSY A practical guide to help you build a culture in your church or organization that resists abuse and cultivates goodness.After the release of their groundbreaking book, A Church Called Tov, which recorded the stories of abuse and toxic church cultures at some of the most prominent churches in the United States, New Testament scholar and blogger for Christianity Today Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer heard from a flood of people who had experienced similar instances of abuse. After all they've seen and heard, they still believe it's possible for church cultures to be transformed from toxic to tov―from oppressive to good.In Pivot, Scot and Laura help churches to implement practices,establish priorities, and cultivate the Kingdom Gospel-centered qualities that form goodness cultures. Readers will find answers to the four most common questions people have about culture transformation: How can I transform the culture in my church or organization to make it tov? I believe my workplace has unhealthy values. How do I initiate change? How do I unleash a culture of goodness in my ministry? I'm not in a position of church leadership. What are some red flags that indicate a toxic culture, and what can I do if I see them? The “Tov tool,” a survey to help you discern your organization's culture and to promote spiritual conversations A “getting to work” section at the end of each chapter with questions and next steps for application Pivot also includes the following practical features:Transformation is never easy. But for the sake of the next generation, we must do it. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/expedition44/support

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/kfW97erZjYA What do you do when the man you looked up to as your spiritual hero is exposed as a fraud? How do you recover from the disillusionment and betrayal? And how do you find hope when your world is turned upside down? On this edition of The Roys Report, you're about to hear a highlight session from this year's Restore Conference featuring Carson Weitnauer, a former director with Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. Ravi Zacharias had a huge impact on Carson when he was coming of age. When Carson was hired by Ravi's ministry, he thought he had found his dream job. But then in 2020, the dream became a nightmare as more and more evidence showed that Ravi Zacharias was not the man he purported to be. He was not a model Christian leader and sterling apologist, but a serial sexual predator, who lied and manipulated to cover his tracks. The revelations rocked Carson's world—and especially his faith. And in this incredibly raw and vulnerable talk, Carson doesn't sugar-coat anything. He tells of his journey from believing the exposés about Ravi were just Satanic attacks—to realizing that his own leaders, people he looked up to, were lying to him. He tells of the excruciating betrayal, pain, and depression he experienced. He talks about almost losing his faith and feeling like God had abandoned him. But he also talks about hope and hanging on, even when life seems bleak. Guests Carson Weitnauer Carson Weitnauer is an author, speaker, and the founder of Uncommon Pursuit, a Christian apologetics ministry. He formerly served on-staff at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries and resigned to advocate for survivors. He has coauthored multiple books. Learn more at uncommonpursuit.net Show Transcript SPEAKERS CARSON WEITNAUER, JULIE ROYS JULIE ROYS 00:02 What do you do when the man you looked up to as your spiritual hero is exposed as a fraud? How do you recover from the disillusionment and betrayal? And how do you find hope when your world is turned upside down? Welcome to The Roys Report—a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And what you're about to hear is the second of 11 talks from this year's Restore Conference. Speaking is Carson Weitnauer, a former director with Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. And as you'll hear, Ravi Zacharias had a huge impact on Carson when he coming of age—and internalizing his faith. So, in 2013, when Carson was hired by Ravi's ministry, he thought he had found his dream job. But then in 2020, the dream became a nightmare as more and more evidence showed that Ravi was not the man he purported to be. He was not a model Christian leader and sterling apologist, but a serial sexual predator, who lied and manipulated to cover his tracks. The revelations rocked Carson's world—and especially his faith. And in this incredibly raw and vulnerable talk, Carson doesn't sugar-coat anything. He tells of his journey from believing the exposés about Ravi were just Satanic attacks—to realizing that his own leaders, people he looked up to—were lying to him. He tells of the excruciating betrayal, pain, and depression he experienced. He talks about almost losing his faith—and feeling like God had abandoned him. But he also talks about hope and hanging on, even when life seems bleak. If you've ever experienced betrayal trauma or church hurt, I think you're going to resonate deeply with Carson's journey.  Here's Carson Weitnauer, a former director with Ravi Zacharias International Ministries—and someone I've come to know as a man of integrity and courage.     JULIE ROYS 04:02 Hi, I'm Julie Roys, founder of The Roys Report and the RESTORE conference, and you're about to see a video from RESTORE 2023. Though a lot of conferences charge for videos like these, we've decided to make them available for free. We've done that because we don't want anybody to miss out on this valuable content for lack of finances. But of course these do cost us money to shoot and to edit. So if you're able we'd really appreciate it if you consider donating to The Roys Report, so we can continue this important service. To do so just go to JulieRoys.com/donate.  Also, I hope you'll make plans to join us at the next RESTORE conference which we'll be announcing soon. As great as these videos are they pale in comparison to being there in person. As one speaker commented, “this year RESTORE is more of a restorative community than it is a conference.” And every year that community just grows deeper and richer. And so I hope you'll be able to join us at the next RESTORE. Be watching for that. And in the meantime, I hope you're blessed and encouraged by this video. CARSON WEITNAUER 05:11 Julie Roys is a liar. It was September 21st, 2020, and I felt nauseous and disoriented. As I thought about all of the crazy things she was saying. I was at the beach with my family. We were trying to recover COVID. But it had been a hard year because Ravi Zacharias had died. He had very suddenly and unexpectedly passed away from cancer, and I don't cry, but in May at his funeral, I had wept that Ravi was no longer with us. And I was angry that God had taken him so soon. The Vice President (Mike Pence) was there. He said, “In Ravi Zacharias, God gave us the greatest Christian apologist of the century. He was the CS Lewis of our day.” And tributes in that spirit poured in from all around the world. Christian media, social media was flooded with praise for Ravi Zacharias. And our ministry was trying to figure out what we would do without our founder our inspiration or leader or guide. But at the beach a few months later, I felt tense and tight. And I was trying to get my bearings because I was scrolling on my phone through these articles Julie had written. Julie claimed to be an investigative journalist. But responsible leaders at RCIM had explained the truth. She was a clickbait journalist. She would dig up dirt on people so she could get her 15 minutes of fame by, you know, scandal mongering. And now she was stooping to a new low in the aftermath of Ravi's funeral. She was claiming that Ravi Zacharias had taken advantage of Lori Anne Thompson. 07:49 And Julie had documented a lot of facts about the situation I had never heard. So I read her articles. And I tried to do a critical reading of them, I tried to ignore all of her negative biased commentary. I just wanted to pay attention to the facts that she had primary documentation for. And every evening, after I got my kids to bed, I would open up my computer and open up a Google spreadsheet, and I would put everything that Ravi and RZIM had told me in one column, and I would put everything that Julie was documenting in another column. And I got 287 rows of discrepancies. And I just kept comparing Julie's articles with everything I had learned for three years since 2017 and 2018. I'd scoured the internet for information for three years to get information on Lori Anne Thompson. I had talked to many of RZIM's leaders, I debated what was being claimed with my colleagues. For every good point that was raised, RZIM's leaders had a good answer.Lori Anne had schemed with some friends to leak emails to embarrass Ravi. And they made it look like Ravi had done something really wrong. But our leaders had the whole context of the entire email chain. And they explained that the whole chain of emails had been selectively and manipulatively distorted and taken out of context to make Ravi look guilty when he wasn't. 09:30 Ravi and a senior leader who were both Easterners explained how they read these emails from an Eastern point of view. And they said if you think Ravi is guilty of something, that's because you're reading this as a Westerner. We had earnestly prayed for God to protect our ministry in this time from satanic attacks. And it felt like God had put a veil of protection, a dome of protection over our headquarters, and our ministry and our events. And these satanic attacks had been thwarted by the power of prayer. And it hadn't been my job to investigate these claims. But there were people of outstanding integrity and leadership, Christian leaders of major organizations. And it was their job to look into this. And so there were two independent external investigations. Ravi's denomination was a highly respected denomination. And when claims like this came up, they did a proper investigation to ensure that none of their pastors did anything like this. And they had found that Ravi was innocent. 10:44 Ravi's publisher would not publish a book by an author who did this kind of thing. They wanted all of their authors to not only have good teaching but good lives. The publisher had a responsibility to investigate. They investigated, they found that Ravi was innocent. RZIM was a multimillion nearly $40 million a year organization, in the 30s of millions, and our board was comprised of extremely qualified Christian leaders. And when a claim like this came up, the board had a responsibility. They investigated. Our senior leaders were best selling authors and powerful speakers and well educated. They had a responsibility. So our speakers our senior leaders had investigated. So I was looking at four separate investigations by Ravi's denomination, his publisher, his board, and the senior leaders. And all four investigations concluded that Ravi was innocent, and that Lori Anne and her scheming husband had tried to extort Ravi out of $5 million dollars. It was a blackmail attempt. 12:03 So what made more sense? A self promoting journalist, desperate for clicks and attention was passing on lies because she always believed survivors? Or multiple investigations by the most trustworthy people had gotten it wrong? And so I wavered. 12:25 I had first met Ravi, when I was in high school. I was struggling with my Christian faith, do I believe this or not? And I'd read Ravi's book can man live without God, and it really helped me. And so there were some connections, and I got to go to a dinner around Christmas time where Ravi was speaking. And afterwards, it was arranged for me and Ravi to talk with each other. And I could not believe it. Ravi spoke to world leaders. And now he was going to talk to me. And he explained, keep in touch Carson, I'd like to keep in touch with you. So on the way home, I told my mom, I would love to work for Ravi Zacharias one day. 13:03 I studied at Rhodes College in Memphis, studying philosophy. And so I asked Ravi, I wrote him a letter and asked him to give me some advice on my future career. I studied abroad at St. Catherine's college at Oxford. And while I was there, I visited the RZIM offices. It was a chance to meet the people that Ravi had hired and trained and spoke with. I then went into campus ministry for 10 years, seven of those years, I had the joy of serving students at Harvard College. We faced difficult intellectual and cultural questions. And so we often went and said, What is Ravi say about this? What resources does RZIM have to help us navigate this conversation with gentleness with respect, with biblical fidelity with intellectual clarity? So in 2013, when I was hired to work for Ravi Zacharias, it was a dream job. I felt like God had orchestrated all the details of my life and worked it out for me to work for Ravi. During the seven years that I worked there, I got to start with the US speaking team, leading them. And then I transitioned to starting and growing an online community called RZIM Connect. And we had hundreds of thousands of people visit this community and learn how to have good conversations about faith and get answers to their questions. I had respected Ravi and RZIM for over 20 years. I'd worked at RZIM for seven and RZIM was not just a job, it was a joy. It was my identity, my community, my sense of purpose, my faith, my spirituality. So I was a real mess on the beach. And then came to more bombshells. 14:58 Both Christianity Today and World Magazine reported that massage therapists who worked at Ravi's spa alleged that Ravi was guilty of awful, horrendous sexual misconduct. And as I read those articles, my heart sank as I thought about what those women had endured. World Magazine also reported that the tax documents Julie had were accurate and that the Thompson's had given away nearly $200,000 one year to different Christian charities. And so I just asked myself, “Are the Thompsons greedy extortionists or exceptionally generous Christians?” “Are all of the journalists self promotional hacks, or courageous truth tellers?” And I was reluctantly but totally convinced. And I felt that I had a responsibility to take action. Because for years, I had shut down people who thought Lori Anne Thompson was telling the truth. And I had defended Ravi. And now I needed to speak up for his victims. And I had been helped by RZIM so much, I had to do whatever I could to help the ministry do what was right. 16:16 And I just trusted that Ravi Zacharias International Ministries was nothing like Ravi Zacharias. I mean, he was a fraud. He was abusive, a bully a liar. But my friends, my mentors, the people I worked with day in and day out, we'd been on road trips together, we'd done ministry together, these people were solid, they were people of integrity, I could count on them to be truth finders and truth tellers and advocates for the vulnerable. So it was October 1st, 2020. And RZIM's board had already put out two statements, fake news, these are false. We've already looked into it, nothing to this. And they also said truth is the foundation of what we do. And I had to ask myself, is truth, the foundation of what we do? Are you just saying that so people will believe what you're saying? 17:20 And then we had a global town hall meeting because the ministry launched a investigation and they knew staff had questions. And one of the ideas on official motto was no questions off limits. And so I had a few questions. And I wanted to know if we have this investigation going on, but Lori Anne and her family are subjected to a nondisclosure agreement, how can the investigation include them? They can't disclose. And the family wasn't willing to release them from that. So would RZIM provide cover to the Thompsons were they to violate this agreement? If there was financial penalties or legal costs, couldn't we make sure that they could participate? And the response was wonderful. It sounded very gentle and respectful. “We're totally committed to the truth here. We want them to participate. The NDA won't be a problem. We're definitely going to include them in this investigation.” It sounded awesome. And then I thought about it. And they hadn't made any concrete promises of unwinding the NDA or providing a legal defense for the Thompson. So they were just empty promises. And then the hammer fell. There was a private follow-up conversation with our general counsel. And he explained that I had been out of line and inappropriate and should not have asked those questions. And I still have flashbacks to that conversation. And I will freeze up and just feel feel so helpless. And then I will remember that I don't have to be afraid of him anymore. And I will take a deep breath and relax my muscles. And I will try and go back into my day. One day out of nowhere, the Chief Financial Officer sent me and my line manager an email. I guess she'd gotten wind of what I was doing, talking to staff about the situation, advocating for the women. And she wrote to me, “while I agree that we should remain transparent with the truth, I don't think repeating potential lies, or passing on judgment, or qualities we want to embody at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries, Carson.” She said she value transparency and truth. But her threat was not idle. Staff had been fired for asking questions that fall. I had thought Julie was a liar. And now one of RZIM's senior leaders was saying that maybe I was a liar too. Throughout the fall of 2020, I heard many heartbreaking stories of my friends being bullied. 20:19 At one point, the human resources director sent out an email saying, “We want to make sure there's someone to receive staff complaints. So we've appointed an ombudsperson.” And that sounded awesome! There's going to be an ombudsperson to advocate for staff. And I was shocked to see the name. The new ombudsperson had a nickname:The Enforcer. She had a track record of bullying staff. So I wrote to the HR director and said, “This person has a track record of bullying staff. You can't have her be the ombudsperson.” And they ignored my email. The ombudsperson stayed in her role. And I had to ask myself, why did they want a bully to receive complaints of bullying? If they cared about staff mistreatment, why did they appoint the Enforcer to this role? 21:09 And as information began to circulate around the ministry, I started to learn about some pretty big lies. Ravi had always said that for that nondisclosure agreement, no money changed hands. But in 2017, our senior leaders had read an email where they had learned that Ravi Zacharias had paid $250,000 for that NDA. And so for years they had known Ravi was lying. And they never corrected the record about a $250,000 payment. And the four investigations I had trusted, they consisted of asking Ravi if he did it, taking him at his word when he said he didn't, and closing the investigation. 21:58 RZIM's president asked us not to publicly comment on the investigation because they were so committed to the integrity of it and to finding the truth, they didn't want anyone to comment about it, so it could run its course. But then, at the end of October, there was a major fundraising weekend called Founders. They would raise millions of dollars in one weekend. And all of the people speaking there, they basically said, “Ravi is a hero, and we want you to make a major gift this year in honor of his legacy.” In November, there was a global apologetics conference. Pastors and churches were trusting us to help them with the big questions of the day. And to a global audience, our speakers share their favorite memories of Ravi and how Ravi had mentored them. They encourage participants to imitate Ravi's example. And I realized that our President's request for silence wasn't about the integrity of the investigation. It was about silencing anyone who believed that Ravi had abused women. It was about protecting Ravi's reputation. And his reputation and our ministry's reputation. 23:03 I had gone to prayer meetings four days a week, and the weekly chapel one day a week, for years. And at the prayer meetings, there were again prayers for God to protect our ministry from the satanic attacks. And I realized now that they were praying against me and what I was doing. And that really complicated my prayer life. By December, I was so discouraged and worn out and wrung out and exhausted. I talked to anyone I could about this issue and been pretty discouraged. When I showed up to our staff Christmas party, I was hoping, look, this is a classic, we laugh, we have fun, the spirit of Christmas. This could be a good moment of connection and recovery. And then came the Christmas Devotional. It came from our chief cultural officer who was a board member. It was Ravi's widow. There's a verse in the Bible that says, the apostle Paul says, “Follow me as I follow Christ.” And her Christmas Devotional was, “Everyone here, follow Ravi's example, the way he followed Christ.” And it was a home run. People liked the message. They thought it was a great Christmas Devotional. And at that point, I knew RZIM was not interested in finding the truth. And they weren't interested in the victims. They didn't believe there were victims. It was about loyalty to Ravi over everything else. And I felt that darkness was closing in around me and I ran out of hope. 24:42 RZIM said they valued truth, and they kept telling lies. They said they valued respect, but they bullied us. They said they valued integrity, and they acted hypocritically. They use the name of Jesus to get money, and they didn't use the money to follow Jesus. In September of 2020, I lost my confidence in Ravi. By December of 2020, I lost my confidence in RZIM. And in January of 2021, I resigned. And I had to wonder if I would lose my confidence in God. 24:42 I was a wreck. I was unemployed. I didn't feel good. I found my family finances changed. I was directionless. What do I do with my life now? I was isolated. I lost all my friends from work pretty much. I was disillusioned. My childhood hero was a liar and a bully and a sexual predator. I was recovering. I was trying to find words to explain all the pain I was feeling. I was trying to understand what spiritual abuse was, how to respond to bullying. I didn't know how to describe what I was experiencing. I was frustrated and angry. I poured my heart into this online community and it had to be shut down and then deleted. All gone. I was ashamed that I'd given seven years of my life to this ministry that would be always associated with scandal. 26:26 And I was so confused. Why would God bring me to work for a sexual predator and a corrupt ministry? I felt so rejected. And hopeless. I just felt like my whole body was covered in pain. One of my first attempts to recover didn't go very well. I went on a retreat by myself. I got an Airbnb in the Great Smoky Mountains. It was beautiful. You know, since childhood my my Bible had been a source of life. But for three months it had been poisoned. And so I didn't really want to read the Bible. And I'd usually loved praying to God. It just felt like dust in my mouth. I had graduated from seminary, but I had never had any training for this. I finally just opened up this journal I brought. And as I started to write, I wrote these incredibly bloody and raw and angry, just super intense prayers to God. Like some pages were just one word of anger at God. And I felt so troubled by what I had said to God, I threw the journal away. 28:01 Slowly, over time, I started to find a few things that helped. After I would drop off my kids at school, I would go to the gym. And instead of feeling weak, I would start to feel strong. And then I would go to the dry sauna. I would just sit in there as long as I could. And it just felt like the heat was taking all the pain out of my body. That's a really good time. I kept talking with a counselor, and he helped give me language helped me express my emotions and start to understand what had happened. I shared my story with friends at church,. And I told them the same story 100 times and they listened and listened and listened and listened and listened to me. I got to know Lori Anne Thompson. I found she was a source of healing in my life. That she would be my friend and forgive me and give me wisdom and care to help me find my way forward. Ruth Malhotra is here. And she has been a steadfast friend and has helped me navigate so many complex things about this. My mom is here for this talk. And she's been amazing. I leaned on my wife for support. I could not in any way have made the decisions I had made, except that she decided to be completely there for me. And it's been years of her, offering me unconditional love and support as I figured things out again. 29:40 I had to rethink all of my beliefs. I read books on theology and church history trying to evaluate if this still made sense to me. And I got really, really honest with God. And I stopped having any pious prayers. It was unfiltered, direct expression of how I felt with God, exactly how I felt about him. I told him, what was on my heart. And even though I was yelling at God, I continued to sense that God was with me, and that God loved me. And I started to pray the Psalms, and I would tweak them as needed. And it was amazing to me that the Psalms were so visceral and real. They blame God for a lot of things. And God heard those prayers and said, I'm going to put these in my Bible. So people can pray them for the rest of time. And I realized that Jesus and the prophets had already spoken the words I needed to say to the leaders at RZIM. And to Ravi Zacharias. I had tested Ravi. He was a disappointment. I had tested RZIM. They were a disappointment. And then I tested God with my very worst. And I found that he could handle it. 31:16 One thing I didn't know is that the road to recovery goes up and down a lot. Sometimes you cannot make progress. Sometimes you don't know if you are making progress. Sometimes you thought you have made progress and you have not–you have regressed. At one point in the spring of 2021 My family went back to the beach for another chance to recover. And I got an email from RZIM saying they wanted to give me severance, which sounded like a real moment of repentance and hope. But I read the separation agreement and my heart sank. It was a nondisclosure agreement. I sent it to four lawyers to make sure I understood this correctly. All four said that's a nondisclosure agreement. 32:05 Boz Tchividjian helped me fight it. And for two months, we were dealing with RZIM's corporate attorney. I lost sleep. And I felt stressed out. And I could hardly think straight, that an organization with millions of dollars in the bank was trying to take the one thing I had left: my voice. 32:28 And if you think that's an unfair characterization, consider that RZIM has never done anything to help Lori Anne Thompson with her NDA. To this day. It's embarrassing. And I got hit from other angles that really confused me and threw me for a loop. I reached out to my whole network and people reached out to me. Mentors, respected Christian leaders, people who wrote books and talked about integrity and Christian leadership. And they had heard my heart ache. They had cared for me. They had prayed with me. They had told me they hoped I would get better. They were there for me. And then they endorsed the books of RZIM's leaders. They did events with RZIM's leaders. And I couldn't understand why they would help relaunch the ministry of people who had bullied me. I reached out I said, “Can I update you? They have not done anything to get right with me or a lot of other people. They don't have the Christian character and integrity you're always saying is so essential.” They said, “Why haven't you forgiven them?” 33:45 Some of them just refused to talk to me. They just never responded to the message. And again and again, I realized that for many Christian leaders, accountability is for anyone who gets in my way. It's never for my friend who's done something wrong. 34:09 And I didn't know that I would have flashbacks. I thought the past was the past. I didn't know that I would be at my desk trying to do work and be unable to do anything for hours because I couldn't stop thinking about a conversation I'd had with someone at RZIM. I didn't know it would keep taking days of my life. 34:29 I would log into Facebook. And Facebook would be like, here's a happy memory of you and Ravi Zacharias. I would hear a new story about RZIM's corruption. And there are so many stories that are not public. So up and down, up and down, up and down. There were times I was in so much pain, I didn't know if I would ever get better. I didn't know if it was possible to get better. I could not see a light at the end of my tunnel. And then I wouldn't get a little bit better. But something would happen. And I would go back down into that pain again. So then, when I was better, I didn't know if I would stay better. It felt so fragile. How long does this last for? When will something catch me off guard and knock me back down into the pit. 35:34 And if you feel like there is no light at the end of your tunnel, and if you wonder if you will never get better, I just wanted to say, I hear you. And then it's okay to not be okay. That was one of the main things I just kept saying to myself, it is okay, in light of what I've been through, to not be okay. 36:03 And over time, I had to accept that Ravi and RZIM had damaged me. And for a long time, I just denied that and resisted that and hated that. It felt so unfair and wrong, that they had changed who I was. And I didn't like what they had done to me. And the kind of person that they had shaped me to be through their hurt. And I felt so helpless. I mean, how do you change the past? How do you undo all the horrible things they did? You can't. I didn't know what to do with that. I didn't want to face that reality. 36:50 But at some point, I gained the strength to choose who I want it to be. I will never justify what happened. I'll never spiritualize it. All of the lies and bullying and spiritual abuse were totally wrong. But that doesn't mean I can't choose a better future for myself. 37:13 So I'm now awakened to the pain of survivors. I'm excited about that. That's a good thing God's done in me. When I see evangelical corruption, I'm not afraid to challenge it. Sometimes people say to me, Carson, are you worried that if you keep calling out all of these big name leaders for corruption is going to limit your future. And I say if it limits my future, that's not a future I want to be a part of. 37:51 I once thought Julie was a liar. And now I can call her a friend. I hit rock bottom. I might go there again sometime in the future. But I'm here today sharing with you a story of hope. I enrolled in the Doctorate of ministry programs so I can learn how to build a healthy Christian culture. Some Christian leaders decided to investigate what happened. And they published a report holding RZIM's leaders accountable. It's sad how many ignore their report. But it's great that they did that. 38:30 My former line manager at RCM reached out to make amends and over and over again, he made really sacrificial choices for my benefit. And that rebuild trust that he kept doing sacrificial things to repair our relationship. I started Uncommon Pursuit. And we're creating resources to help people grow in their Christian faith. And I read the Bible with more sensitivity to God's heart for many years, thanks to some good mentors, I had always had known for many years that God cares about the vulnerable. The orphan, the widow, the immigrant and the poor. God hates injustice. God hates racism. God hates sexism. God hates all forms of oppression. But it had shifted from being something that I could do exegetically to something I felt in my gut as I turned the pages of Scripture. 39:34 And I have developed a way more honest relationship with God. I don't pray pious prayers anymore. What I feel that's what I tell God about. And I know he can handle it. When the truth becomes a lie, when a good reputation is used to lure people in and abuse them, when the minister turns out to be a monster, it's okay not be okay. 40:05 I am not here today with any answers or advice. All I have is the story of how God has been able to handle all of my pain and helped me to start to heal. And how with God's help, this pain has helped me to choose a better version of myself. I am convinced that if we can maintain the courage to be honest with God, and with each other, about all of our reasonable and righteous disillusionment, that we will also find our way to hope. Thank you guys for the chance to share with you today. JULIE ROYS:  41:02 Well again, that was Carson Weitnauer, speaking at Restore 2023. And what a very special and moving talk that was. And I hope if you're in a place of disillusionment or discouragement today, that this talk encouraged you. Next week, we'll be releasing a fitting sequel to Carson's talk. That's a talk by Lori Anne Thompson on trauma recovery and empowerment. And this was the most raw and real talk I think I've ever heard. My husband cried during this talk. And he's a math teacher, so he's not really given to shows of emotion. But wow, Lori's talk is just so powerful—and helpful for anyone who's experienced severe trauma. So, you'll definitely want to be watching for that. Also, I want to mention that the videos of these talks are all available at my YouTube channel. A lot of conferences charge for their videos. But we've decided to make ours available for free because we don't want anyone to miss out on this valuable content because of lack of finances. But as you can imagine, these videos do cost us to shoot and edit. So, if you appreciate this content and you're able to pitch in, would you please donate to The Roys Report so we can continue this important service? To do so, just go to JulieRoys.com/Donate.  And when you give a gift of $30 or more this month, we'll send you a copy of Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer's latest book: Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers that Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture. So again, just go to JulieRoys.comDonate. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way, you'll never miss an episode! And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then, please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks for joining me today! Hope you were blessed and encouraged!    Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript How can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? In this podcast, theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer, join me to discuss their latest book, Pivot, a sequel to their earlier best-selling book, A Church Called Tov. While their first book explained the characteristics of a “tov,” or good, culture, Pivot tackles the next challenge—transforming ingrained toxic cultures into tov ones. As Scot and Laura discuss, transformation can be a grueling and painful process. And their research shows transformation takes an average of seven years! But it is possible. And cultures led by narcissist leaders that create consumers can transform into ones led by servant-leaders that make disciples.  In their characteristic relatable and warm style, Scot and Laura explain the practical steps required to do that. Specifically, they discuss the priorities, practices, and powers necessary to pivot, or transform, toxic cultures. And they give real-life examples of churches that have undergone this transformation and lived to tell about it! Scot and Laura draw from their own experiences in churches, conversations with leaders seeing transformation happen, and a deep well of research to provide actionable insights for churches and ministries. Guests Scot McKnight Scot McKnight is a professor of New Testament and has been teaching for more than four decades. His specialty is in the fields of Gospels and Jesus studies, but his passions are in the intersection of New Testament in its context as it speaks to the church today. Along with his daughter, Laura Barringer, they have published A Church Called Tov and a follow-up book, Pivot, which discusses what churches can do to help transform themselves from toxic cultures into tov (goodness) cultures. Laura Barringer Laura Barringer is coauthor of A Church Called Tov as well as Pivot: The Priorities, Practices and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture. She previously co-authored the children's version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher's guide to accompany the book. A graduate of Wheaton College, Laura resides in the suburbs of Chicago with her husband Mark and their three beagles.  Show Transcript SPEAKERS SCOT McKNIGHT, LAURA BARRINGER, JULIE ROYS JULIE ROYS  00:00 So how can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And joining me today are theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer. They're the authors of the bestselling book A Church Called TOV. TOV is the Hebrew word for good or goodness. And the book explained how to create a church culture that's truly good–one that resists abuse promotes healing and spiritual growth. But what if your church or Christian workplace already has an ingrained toxic culture? Well, that's what Scot and Laura's new book PIVOT is all about. It explains the priorities, practices and powers that can help you pivot or transform your toxic culture into a TOV culture. But it's not easy and it's not for the faint of heart, but it is God honoring and it is possible. So I'm very excited to delve into this topic was gotten Laura But first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shape the world. For more information, just go to JudsonU.edu. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That's because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.com.  Well again, joining me is New Testament scholar Scot McKnight, who has authored more than 50 books. He's currently professor of New Testament at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Lisle, Illinois. And he's an ordained Anglican and maintains a blog with Christianity today called Jesus Creed. So Scott, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you join me. SCOT McKNIGHT  02:25 Thanks, Julie. Good to be with you again. JULIE ROYS  02:27 Yeah, second time. So I always like when I have a repeat guest. It means it must have gone okay the first time. SCOT McKNIGHT  02:33 I used to be with you sometimes on the radio, in the old days. JULIE ROYS  02:37 On Moody. Yeah. Yes, old days. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This is going to be fun. I love the book. And Laura, thank you also for joining me again, Scot's daughter Laura Barringer, who's co authored Scott's last two books, A Church Called TOV and PIVOT. Laura also is a children's ministry curriculum writer for Grow Kids. And her day job is teaching kindergarteners in suburban Chicago and Laura, I know you've had a full day teaching them today. So thank you so much for for joining us and for being willing to come on. LAURA BARRINGER  03:09 Yeah, thank you for having me again. It's nice to be with you guys. JULIE ROYS  03:13 And you were just with us at RESTORE, and did a phenomenal job. And we've been rolling out the videos on that and yours will be rolling out in the next few weeks. But that was just delightful to have you. So thank you for joining us at that. LAURA BARRINGER  03:27 I had a great time. It was such an honor to speak at the event and meet so many of the people that I've interacted with online over the last few times. I was just blown away by how special. I was anticipating it. But I was blown away by how special that was to see actual faces. And I came away just realizing this is so much more. It's not just a conference. It's so much more than that. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:51 That's what we experienced the year before. LAURA BARRINGER  03:53 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:54 Same thing like these are the people. LAURA BARRINGER  03:56 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:56 These are the people. Yeah, that's good. JULIE ROYS  03:58 Yeah, I think you called it a restorative community. LAURA BARRINGER  03:58 That's what it is. JULIE ROYS  04:00 I love that. I was like, yes, that's exactly what RESTORE is. And Scot, you joined us last year for the RESTORE conference. And your video is up on our YouTube site as well. And I believe it was on How To Be TOV, Not Toxic. So a lot of that stuff that we're talking about today, although today, we're talking more about your second book, which is kind of making that pivot when you realize you already are toxic, right? And you've got this culture ingrained that's not so good. And Laura, I loved in the book where you said, at one point you're like, I teach kindergarteners and now I'm doing all these interviews on how to make a church culture TOV and how to make it good and you're like, how did I get here? And then a pastor said to you, “you know what you nurture little people all day you children all day long, and that skill, even though it's often not valued by pastors is probably more appropriate than a lot of them realize.” And I just I love that. And I'm sure you're finding that as you're speaking to people. LAURA BARRINGER  05:05 Yeah, that was very meaningful interview that was Jared McKenna. He has a podcast that he had invited me on. And for whatever reason, my dad wasn't there. I don't know, usually, they want my dad, and then I tag along. And so initially, those interviews could feel really uncomfortable, because every now and then I would stop and think, do these people, you know, they'd asked me about, like, the church abuse crisis. And I'd think, “do these people not realize that I was making kindergarten ready for school confetti earlier today?” How have I landed in this spot? But that was a very encouraging conversation for me when Jared said, you know, you have some of the qualities as a teacher that we want to see in our pastors. And I stopped, I thought, I suppose that's what we do all day long as teachers we nurture and encourage and shepherd. So yeah, that meant a lot to me, as you read in the book, JULIE ROYS  06:05 And Scott, you teach at a seminary, but a lot of seminaries aren't teaching about this kind of stuff. Like you're you learn a lot of Bible knowledge. But as far as how to create cultures and how to nurture goodness within churches? I mean, are we teaching this in enough seminaries? Or are we maybe a little heavy on the head knowledge and not enough on the cultivating of the heart? SCOT McKNIGHT  06:30 The answer to that is no. There are really no seminaries that are focused on spiritual formation or character development, LAURA BARRINGER  06:41 Really? SCOT McKNIGHT  06:42 None. The curriculum for all the courses is Bible theology, church history, and skill development. And skill development is what is measured, as a general rule for what constitutes a good pastor. In other words, they can preach they can lead, you know, we talked about leadership, I don't, but the evangelical world does. And we read books and from the business world, and we read, what is it, Jack Welch? We read all these people. And these are the people that are formational, for people's perception of what is success, and what constitutes a pastor. One of the curricular changes that took place in seminaries about 15 years ago, 10 years ago, was to bring spiritual formation into every class, rather than located in one class, a class on spiritual formation. And so we do it that way. But Julie, I think character formation for church leaders, is caught more than taught, it's embodied more than it's instructed. And it requires time with someone who has that kind of character. So if you can be an assistant, in a church with Mr. Rogers, for five years, you'll never be the same. If you are in a church with, we won't name any names don't need to in this context, for five years, you will be harmed in character formation. JULIE ROYS  08:12 And that's what's so sad is that so much of my reporting is on churches where that's happening, where you have pastors who can preach the Bible, and can teach it–sometimes with really good doctrine–and yet, the life does not match the teaching. And so that is so much of the problem. So I'm so glad that you that both of you have done these two books, which go hand in hand, and I loved your first book, A Church Called TOV, and I love this book PIVOT, because it's, it really is sort of the sequel, and I think helps an awful lot. And we've been using this phrase church culture. Scott, let me just start there. What is a church culture? Because this is something we often don't think about yet we often swim in it, and we're shaped by it. But what is it exactly? And how is it formed? SCOT McKNIGHT  09:00 A culture is a living agent that conforms people, whether they understand it, or not, unconsciously, unintentionally, to become people who fit in that culture. Now, that's the impact understanding, but culture is a living agent. That is the result of people decisions, policies, over time, that result in a given set of assumptions that are mostly invisible, that shape what's going on in a given institution, or church, whatever, without even being aware of it. That's the culture. JULIE ROYS  09:44 And so often what we see I know when I report on a church or a leader, and in several circumstances that's led to the leader being removed, and then they bring in a new leader, and you think, oh, everything's different now. SCOT McKNIGHT  09:58 Yeah. JULIE ROYS  09:59 But it's really not. Right? Because  Nothing. You've got a culture that's ingrained, you have people that have been formed by this culture. And they don't know any different than how to run a toxic church, because that's how they've been discipled. That's the culture that they're familiar with. So you use this metaphor in your book of a peach tree, to help us understand culture. So Laura, let me throw that to you. What is this peach tree metaphor? And how does it apply to helping us understand the church? SCOT McKNIGHT  10:01 Nothing, LAURA BARRINGER  10:30 So the peach tree metaphor, it's, it is a cute, if you will metaphor, but it actually is research based and we based it on the research of Edgar Schein, he's one of the, to my knowledge, most important researchers on organizational culture. And also to our knowledge, we were not able to find research or books on church culture or Christian organization culture. So we took what we learned from him and adapted it and made our model a peach tree, mostly because I have a peach tree in my backyard. Mark, and I planted it when we moved in our home about 10 years ago. And it ended up being perfect for this metaphor, because it's very unhealthy. We've never even eaten one peach off the tree. So like, Oh, that's perfect, because it was a very small because I called her tree. But at any rate, so we talked about peaches as the visible elements of your culture. And it's what people see and experience when they walk in the door. So they might feel like, Oh, those graders were friendly, or who's singing on stage or, when the Anglican tradition, they pass the peace, that's part of the culture. And when they leave, they can probably explain what they felt, what they saw. So what we have learned, and again, this is research based, is that what is underneath the soil is what feeds the living elements of the tree. And most of that is like what my dad was saying that you can't see it, you don't even know it's there. And like our peach tree in our backyard, the fact that it's not growing peaches is not the problem. The problem is that is probably the soil or that we're not caring for the tree, we're supposed to add nutrients every year–we never do. So that's how we develop the model is that the soil and what's underneath the soil, what goes into the roots is what feeds the culture of your organization. And so you really need to look at, we learned, is “what's feeding the soil?” If the tree is being fed by the fruits of the Spirit are by spiritual formation practices, the culture is likely healthy and thriving. If it's being fed by ambition, or power abuse, then the culture is going to be toxic. And so you might get some healthy, like looking peaches, but underneath that's very sick. SCOT McKNIGHT  13:04 This is a good question. And Laura's got a good answer there. But I was in a conversation the other day was a seminary professor who talked about the last three presidents of that institution. And the seminary professor said they were all narcissists. And I said, I think we have to look at why narcissists rose to the top in that organization. There's a culture that gives rise to “that's the kind of person that seems to fit the job description.” Why is that the case? JULIE ROYS  13:39 And that is an important point to make. Because I think so often we do point at the narcissist, and oh, this horrible person that was there and did such horrible things. And we don't look at what's our responsibility for putting that person in and for following that person for not noticing the characteristics that we should have. And you've named some of the toxins that go into these soils of these toxic churches. You give, and I love this because you don't hear the stories very often. And I'd love to report on a lot more of them. I wish there were a lot to report on. But it's of a church that discovers that it's toxic, and goes through this transformation process. And one of them that you talked about is is Oak Hills church in Folsom, California. Explain why Oak Hills felt like it had to transform and then how it began to do so. LAURA BARRINGER  14:33 Yeah, this is one of my favorite parts of our work on PIVOT, I think. I had never heard of Oak Hills. Just one day a book arrived on my doorstep, sent by Scot McKnight. And he said you need to read about this, and then write about it as a case study for PIVOT. It's such a beautiful story, but essentially, the pastors Mike Lueken and Ken Carlson founded a church in California called Oak Hills. And they had come out here to Willow Creek to learn as much as they could about doing church. And they don't criticize Willow at all. They said, in fact, everything that we tried worked. Their attendance exploded, they became a mega church. But they started to feel I would describe it just like an unease like in their soul. And they felt like the exact quote is so striking. It says, “the way that we were doing church was actually working against the invitation of Christ to experience his transformation.” And they had been reading Eugene Peterson, and Dallas Willard and more. And they felt like our attractional model is working against transformation. And so they took the whole church through a very tumultuous process. Their attendance declined, like it was cut in half or more. But they ended up transforming their church from an attractional model to a spiritual formation model. They said the people in the church had become consumers. So like, they would sit there and want a really good show. And then the next week, they would come back and they wanted an even better show. And they said, it felt like we were feeding a monster, and they were drained. They were worn out. And they just felt that stirring in the spirit that they had to transform it. JULIE ROYS  16:28 Yeah, somebody asked me once, whether I thought a mega church could ever be healthy. And my answer was, perhaps, but it just seems to me that all the pressures are in the wrong direction. And it's awful hard to withstand the pressures that keep pushing you in that direction. And I'm curious, Scot, have you ever seen a mega church that, really, you're seeing a real emphasis on spiritual formation? And it seems really healthy? SCOT McKNIGHT  16:59 This is a really interesting question because it feeds into what we researched in this book. And Edgar Schein, I've seen a lot of them, because I've only been there for a day or two. Okay, so this is what they are masters of, is the weekend service is extremely impressive and they have talented, charismatic, winsome, affable people that welcome you at the airport, take you to nice hotels, feed you nice meals, provide a green room in the back with all the amenities that you need, and a wonderful platform where they stand up and even clap for you. Great music. So here's the point, I do believe there are mega churches that are healthy. But the only way to know this is to have someone investigate them, not for the purpose of exposing anything, but for the sole purpose of finding out what's really going on. And it would take three to six months of someone who's skilled at knowing how to find a culture. This is what Edgar Schein does, he'll go to places like let's just say IBM, and work there for nine months. And it takes that long to find what is actually in the soil feeding the place. So there's no megachurch pastor, or leaders, or any church is going to tell you that what's driving them is ambition, and competition. They want to win the battle of the best church in the neighborhood or in the city or in the state or in the United States. They will never say that, but that is one of the drivers. And it takes a long time to figure out that that's what's actually at work when fundamental decisions are made in the church. So I would say I've never had the opportunity to actually examine a mega church at that level. I do know, a mega church model that the theory is that it's small groups that meet on Sunday. That's the kind of mega church model has the capacity to be working at character formation. But I can't say that I looked at the people I've met there have been very impressive, but that's what a famous pastor in Canada that was his model as well. JULIE ROYS  19:26 Bruxy Cavey. SCOT McKNIGHT  19:27 Yeah, that's a lot of problems. JULIE ROYS  19:29 Yeah. And he comes from Brethren In Christ Anabaptist background which is my background. I grew up in that so at that was very sad for me to see that happen. SCOT McKNIGHT  19:39 Well, I endorsed a lot of his books so not that long before this story. Yeah, I've known Bruxy a long time. Sad story. JULIE ROYS  19:47 Yeah, it is and Brethren in Christ churches from my at least from my growing up, I haven't been in one for many years because we don't really have them in the Midwest, but I felt like they were phenomenal at character formation, spiritual formation. You talk about three pivotal priorities–and one you've touched on–but I want to do a little bit of a deep dive because we're talking about emphasis on character, not ability. I mean, that seems like one of those like, Duh, this is basic, right? I mean, we should be all about character. But why is it that this is such a misplaced priority? Like we really are not looking at character in our churches, and we find, pastor after pastor after pastor falling into scandal and into disrepute, because of character flaws? Why is this? SCOT McKNIGHT  20:39 I think, let's say the pastor on the platform is a different beast altogether than ordinary people in the church. But those aren't the same things. The character issues, you're expecting people to hire a pastor to be able to perform on that platform every Sunday, and put butts in the seats and bills in the plate, and baptisms in the pool. And buildings on the campus. That's what they hire him for. But I would say there's a couple things. Number one is our church is, let's say, measurement devices, or success measurements are not shaped by that at all. A second thing is, it's extremely difficult to measure spiritual growth in a true character formation. And I think I said two, but I got a third one. And it takes a lot of pastors. A lot. You can't have one pastor working with the transformation of 50 people. They can't do that. They don't have that kind of time. That's why the small group model has the capacity. If you don't have pinheads running the small group. If you have people who are Mr. Rogers, like who get to work with people in that small group. We just have a lot of things distorted in the wrong direction. And they start in the wrong location. JULIE ROYS  22:06 And this is the challenge, isn't it? Like you said in the book, if you're going to transform from a toxic culture to a TOV one, what you've seen is that it takes minimum seven years, probably three years before you see this change start to happen. And often the church will shrink. In Oak Hills, they lost what 1000 people? LAURA BARRINGER  22:28 Yeah. JULIE ROYS  22:28 Yeah. And I said this at the beginning of the RESTORE conference, to the pastors who were there, because we talked about, you know, a lot of church hurt at these conferences. And I did hear from one pastor who came and this was at the previous year, and he said, “Yeah, it was really, really powerful conference, but I kind of got the feeling as a pastor that maybe we're the bad guys.” And so I wanted to make sure this one to say, “No, we love you. We're so glad you're here. And the fact that you as a pastor, invested in coming to hear from wounded souls, about the way that they've been hurting the Church says something about you and your character and why you're here. And you're exactly the kind of pastors that we need in our churches.” Yet. I think if I were doing a conference on how you can grow your church overnight, I wouldn't have enough seats, if I had a proven method of making your church double overnight. But what you're talking about here is, here's a path to making your church maybe smaller, maybe less successful in the world's eyes, and trying to get people to buy into this model. But in the end, there's greater fulfillment isn't there in knowing that you're actually producing people who are furthering the kingdom of God? Because you're actually modeling Christ to people. It's a powerful thing. But how do you get people to buy into that? SCOT McKNIGHT  23:48 Well, when you were talking, I'm sitting here thinking of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with his renegade subversive hideout seminaries in northern Germany and Prussia, and the impact of Dallas Willard on someone like James Smith, where it was over time, with one person working with another person. And that's a different calling. And it's not like that's what we hire people in churches to do. You know, the last Barna book I read by David Kinnaman, was on pastors. And I think the number was 12% of pastors enjoy discipleship. LAURA BARRINGER  24:34 That low? SCOT McKNIGHT  24:35 Yeah, it may be lower than that, but I think it was in the book, Pastor Paul. But that is not what they see themselves doing. They see themselves preaching and leading and administrating and organizing. And some of them writing books, and traveling around speaking at conferences. That's what they see themselves doing. But if you work in Navigators or you work in Campus Crusade or InterVarsity on a campus and colleges, which are some of the most effective TOV institutions in the world. They are all about working with young college students and helping them deal with the fact that they got drunk last night, and we got to find out what's going on. And they disciple people. And it takes a lot of time. And in four years, those students, a lot of them want to come back and do the same to other college students. That's the multiplication principle of Navigators. And Navigators is all about one on one, JULIE ROYS  25:37 And what virtues should we be looking for? And should we be cultivating? LAURA BARRINGER  25:42 Theologian. SCOT McKNIGHT  25:43 (laughter) There's a couple of ways to look at this. And I think we need to take the major virtue passages in the Bible. So look at the 10 commandments. Alright, look at the book of Psalms, pick a couple of prophets and say, What are they trying to inculcate in people? And how they should live? Then look at the Sermon on the Mount. Look at Paul's list of the fruit of the Spirit. Look at what Paul says about love in First Corinthians 13. Look at First John's teachings. Avoid Jude because he's too hot, a little angry all the time. So and just realize that there are different ways to package this over time to frame what virtues we want to talk about. Now, there's ways of summarizing, let's say, we want to be followers of Jesus. That's a summary statement. Or we want to be characterized by love. Or if you're in the Puritan movement, you want to be characterized by godliness. And that means you read the Puritans, and you subscribe to Banner of Truth  Trust, and all this, and these become your heroes. Jonathan Edwards is the guy. But all these terms are summary statements that need to be unfolded. And so the virtues, the character that forms these virtues, so that they become sort of instincts can be framed in different ways. But all those passages can help us shape the kinds of virtues we're looking for. JULIE ROYS  27:23 So we have character is one of our priorities. Another one is TOV power. And I have to say, when you hear that word power, and you've experienced abuse of power, just that word power, can be scary. So how can we tell if power is being harnessed and used in a good way, as opposed to a toxic way? LAURA BARRINGER  27:49 Yeah, this is a big one for us. After A Church Called TOV was published, we received letter after letter after letter, we wrote a lot about sexual abuse, we heard mostly from victims of power abuse, we would get these letters every week, my dad would get some I would get some. And it was story after story of people who had been wounded, mostly by pastors who had misused their power. And the people had tried to stand up for themselves or those who found the courage to maybe try to talk to elders. It was like they didn't get very far because people didn't believe them, or it was done behind closed doors. So people say, Well, I haven't seen him do that. That's not how he is. That's not my experience. And that was so painful, because it discounts the reality of what another person endured. So this was a really big one for us when we went to write PIVOT. All of us have power, right? Like, I have power, I'm a teacher, so I have the power to influence those under me and how people use their power is a measure of their character of who they are as a person. SCOT McKNIGHT  29:09 People have power. And anybody who exercises a decision, who is a leader, has a right to make those decisions. And people underneath them, I guess, have a right to bellyache about them as well. I mean, that's part of the complaint culture that workplaces develop. But to me, one of the signs of power desire is when someone who is your leader makes a decision that you don't like how do you respond? Do you manipulate? Do you gossip? Do you attack? Do you get other people in your corner so that you can eventually destroy that person's reputation and character? That's a very important element of power, in institutions, is a complaint culture that forms. All narcissists have no self awareness of the power that they have, and what they are doing to people around them. They have lack of self awareness. So they think what they're doing is right all the time. And when they're criticized, they DARVO. “That's not what I was doing.” Well, yes, you did. That's the impact you made on it. So they lacked that awareness.  So it needs to be revealed by people being able to have a safe place to be able to express what they've experienced from a person. I've been in institutions where presidents were removed. I'm at one right now. And the former president, there were too many people who were released, and then stories were released about that person. And The Roys Report reported about it. JULIE ROYS  30:53 Yes we did. SCOT McKNIGHT  30:54 Not very good news for our seminary. But those were symptoms, signs that something's going on. And it was not a safe place for people to be able to register their complaints. And it didn't seem to be achieving anything, I think power is going to happen. People get to do this, who are leaders. They have power. So they exercise their power, and not everybody's going to agree with it, and people get to interpret it. And they can be dead wrong, and be very convincing, even though they're wrong. But at the same time, there has to be some sort of device mechanism, TOV tool, that gives people some indications of how that person is using power. And I think it's possible to reveal some of this stuff. But I think it's impossible to change a narcissist. JULIE ROYS  31:52 So you have to have somebody in positions of leadership, who obviously have the character and wants to use their power in a right way. And one of the things that that you do in this book, which I think is really helpful, is you not only have questions at the end of each chapter, but you do have assessment tools, where you can begin to assess some of these things to say, Okay, this is a toxic culture, this is a TOV culture, this is a good way of using power. And maybe not so good way of using power. It's a beautiful thing, when you see somebody in power, use that power to protect others to draw out someone who's quiet, who wouldn't normally speak, to be able to notice the weak and the vulnerable and to use the power to protect and to help. SCOT McKNIGHT  32:39 I think people who use power well, are not recognized as using power. Because something happens and you go, Oh, that was really nice. And you didn't realize that that leader decided to elevate somebody in a way that empowered them. So when they're empowering others, you usually don't recognize that they're using power. It's when they violate the power. A good umpire in a baseball game is unrecognized. And when you're talking about the umpires, it's because they screwed up. They messed up stuff. You notice it. “That was terrible!” And I think that's the same way with leaders. If you don't recognize their leadership, and things are functioning pretty well, you probably got a pretty good leader. JULIE ROYS  33:33 That's good. Yeah, I would say the number one problem of most of the bad leaders that I report on, obviously, the character issues there and everything, but the way it often comes out is in hypocrisy. They're just not living, what they say they believe. And you make a big point of one of the priorities is you got to model. You got to be the example of what you want your culture to be. And I love this, one of the people that you talk about modeling this goodness is, as you said, Mr. Rogers. Explain how Mr. Rogers is modeling exactly what he's teaching. LAURA BARRINGER  34:14 Well, when we went to write A Church Called TOV, I kept sending my dad examples like, what about this pastor or this one? And he kept saying, no, no, no. And he said, We need somebody that's dead. (laguhter) Because–that's exactly what he said–they have to be dead. Because there's too many scandals that erupt. And sure enough, we have a story in A Church Called TOV, that when it went to the next printing, we had to remove because the pastor, allegations etc. So we use Mr. Rogers as our example. Mr. Rogers, from everything we have read about him, the man that you saw on TV was the man that everybody knew. He was patient. He was gentle. He was just as kind in person as he was on the television screen. He would get distracted by children, he would tell Oprah, I'll come on your show, but you can't have children in the audience because I will be distracted, I will be I know that I will be, all of my attention will go to them the vulnerable. That's what my heart and soul is, is for. And so when you said hypocrisy, that's the opposite of Mr. Rogers, there are some beautiful stories that we recited in the book about him that he is as good a man as he appeared to be. JULIE ROYS  35:35 Hmm. And there was one in the book, I thought was so touching about a man whose wife . . . was the wife, the employee, I believe, or was LAURA BARRINGER  35:44 The wife was the employee. JULIE ROYS  35:46 Yeah. So the wife was the employee, and she died. It sounds like young, got cancer and, and Mr. Rogers would show up and visit, you know, visited on a regular basis. And the day she died, he he knocked on the door and said, I just had a sense that, that you needed me today, or you needed to be visited today. And here, she was dying. And he came in and cried with him, you know, as his wife was dying and prayed with him. And the husband said, he never talked about it. Nobody ever heard that story about Mr. Rogers. LAURA BARRINGER  36:21 He didn't get up and talk about the ways that he volunteered or helped people. I also love the story about the reporter who maybe this is in A Church Called TOV. No. I remember I don't remember no. He said, “Do you know, who is the most important person in the world to me right now?” And the reporter was like, Who who is the most important person? Mr. Rogers said, “You, I'm talking to you, you have my full attention. You're the most important person in the world to me right now.” And the reporter was, like, stunned that a celebrity would spend that much time and give him that much attention for I think he said an hour which was unheard of with celebrities, interviews. JULIE ROYS  37:05 Well, and as a reporter, you're just happy when somebody wants to talk to you because most of the people I talk to, they don't want to talk to me. SCOT McKNIGHT  37:13 But Julie, you know the issues of the people that that we want to find out more about, that have become celebrities that Katelyn Beaty has written about. They're there. And you just think they're just amazing because of the platform persona, that they've presented in their pastoral sermons. You just go, “I want to be like that person.” Okay, so the tendency is to make those the examples. And all you see about them is the presentation on the platform. And that's why I said to Laura, we can't take living examples now. I mean, yes, I understood what she was doing. And she had some wonderful stories, and they they truly are probably good people. But because I'm older, you know, I think when when I wrote when we wrote TOV I was probably 65. JULIE ROYS  38:10 A whippersnapper. SCOT McKNIGHT  38:11 Yeah, I was young compared to the day.  here were people that we wanted, you know, that I could easily say they were fantastic people that in the last five years, I would say, Well, maybe that's not so true. So it was important for me I finally said, Laura, we got to find dead people whose whose stories are unimpeachable. But I have found stories of people that I have exalted in my years as a professor. I've written I've used their names. And I discovered later that they were horrific people. And nobody knew. Nobody was talking. Because even in those days, you didn't talk about things like that. We, I mean, when Kennedy was a president, we didn't talk about what was going on in the White House, behind closed doors. Now we know these things. So that's why we went with dead people. But but nobody questions Mr. Rogers. And so we used him in both books. LAURA BARRINGER  39:09 I remember that–my dad's texts, “Nope, only dead people.” JULIE ROYS  39:13 Problem is even dead people, Ravi Zacharias that didn't come out, you know, until after he was dead. But I mean, obviously, a little better if they've had a little bit of time, between their life and some study of the kind of person they were, SCOT McKNIGHT  39:30 I would also say that nobody's perfect. Not many people are like Mr. Rogers. So people with warts and all is not the worst thing. David is hardly a beautiful character in all the pages of the Bible. The apostle Paul can lash out at people. I don't know about Peter. Mary seems to be a good person, other than the fact that she's trying to tell Jesus what to do and how to be a messiah. So we just we can't expect perfection but we expect a certain level of maturity that we can count on. And we may find out that Pastor got really mad one day and said something he shouldn't have, but he admitted it. JULIE ROYS  40:11 That's a big one to me is Do you hear the pastor admitting wrong, asking for forgiveness, because that needs to be a regular practice. Let's talk about some of these practices of transforming cultures. And you talk about there being a transformational agent. Normally, when you see these kinds of transformations happening, and as well, a transformational coalition. SCOT McKNIGHT  40:35 Julie, let's just say you realize your church has got some stuff in the soil that needs to be healed. Alright. And you go through a process of discovery. And you come up with five things that we need to work on in the next five years. All right, I think that's a pretty normal process. I don't believe that the pastor should be in charge of all this. Now, in most churches, I believe the pastor will be in charge of this because the pastor is in charge of everything. But I think it should be handed off to a transformation agent, who is independent, and can get more honest responses from people than the pastor can, unless the transformation agent is just a flying monkey, as the as the words are used, or a mole for the pastor. If it's a person of character, they're going to be trusted, and the pastor is going to have to listen to the results. But I think it's good to have a transformation agent whose responsibility it is to organize administrate, to evaluate, and to pass the information on so that it can be implemented in a really good way to the leadership of the church. But it can't just be one person or two people. And it's not based on it's not a bunch of sermons, LAURA BARRINGER  41:52 I don't want to skip over something really important that we learned from Edgar Schein, again, the major researcher on this topic of transforming culture, is he said, You can't transform anything until your problem is clearly defined and crystal clear. That's what led us to write the TOV tool so that it can help groups or whomever is taking it churches, groups, teams, clearly identify areas of strength, and then areas where growth is important. And Edgar Schein said, that's like the most important step of all is listening. And that might take a lot of conversation and a lot of authenticity and hearing maybe things about yourself, you don't want to hear. But that's like one of the most important steps is identifying, “we are not putting people above the reputation of our institution.” Or, “it seems like we're really good at truth telling, but we're not offering a lot of justice to the wounded.” So every organization is different. But those conversations where you unearth, what are the strengths, and where do we need to grow in these areas of like that we created the TOV tool out of our circle of TOV from the first book. It just cannot be skipped over. And then that can be used by the transformation agent and the coalition to have some data and listening as they move forward or attempt to move forward. SCOT McKNIGHT  43:28 And I would add to the coalition is you can't transform a culture because you're a persuasive speaker, with a couple of friends in your church that are all doing this. It takes a culture's ownership to get there. So our theory is okay, we got a transformation agent and a couple people, they studied the Bible, I won't get into all that, then it grows to a group of five. And then it grows to a group of 10. And then it splits into a couple more groups that grow to a group of 30 or 40. And you're starting to build a critical mass of people who are committed to this idea and working it out. But they're contributing to the idea. So it's not like I got a great idea. Now we're gonna go implement it. It is, I have an idea. Let's work on this together. And before long once you get 50 to 75 people involved in it, there's ownership but the idea has now grown into something that is healthier, stronger, deeper, wider. It starts to get ownership, if you have a fairly sizable church, before you go to the church. JULIE ROYS  44:36 And I think what's to me exciting about listening about some churches that did this. And even hearing you talk about it, this is a very organic thing that happens as people are discussing this and something starts to grow. I mean, basically, this culture begins to reform as people are reforming. Right? And they're beginning to model it, and they're beginning to change, and so then you begin to see this transformation happen. And then hopefully you're moving into a different culture. Right? And the congregation becomes a different kind of culture.  And those who quite frankly, don't buy into it, leave. I mean, I remember the power of that when we did youth ministry, like we just said, from the beginning, we don't do entertainment, the world does that better than us. But if you want to come and worship and pray, like, we're really going to be a part of that, and studying the Bible, and the ones that weren't interested in that would just fall off. And then we would gather a group of people who really wanted to do that, and it became our culture. But it takes that kind of time. But you talk about then the last part of your book about the powers and the congregational culture powers, I thought it was really interesting, especially Laura, when you were talking about kind of the practices that led to a culture at Willow Creek when you were there. And then you contrasted that with these practices that led to a culture at this Quaker church that was completely different. Talk about that, because I thought, it's such a great example and a contrast, because we often don't think about what we're doing when we're doing it, and how this is creating a culture. But I think, as I was reading it, it made me think about things that I'm doing, and what kind of culture does that create? So yeah, talk about that. LAURA BARRINGER  46:29 So I didn't really realize what the culture of Willow Creek was, until I left Willow Creek. And being out of it allowed me to see and I'm not criticizing it, I'm just saying like, factually, there are a lot of people that attend, they put people up on stage, that walk through the campus with bodyguards. And there's sort of a feel of like haves have nots, or the whole service leads up to what the speaker is going to say. And you know, weeks ahead of time, who's going to be speaking and like Mark, and I'd be the first to tell you, like, we got into a terrible rut at Willow, we were like, Oh, we don't really like that speaker. So we're not going to go this week, you know, our neighbors would be like, come for a bike ride. Okay, we'll do that instead, like, we were just consumers of a show. So we left Willow Creek and experienced the Anglican tradition, which is very different. But then what I wrote about in the book, I tried to get into less Twitter fights or whatever X fights? JULIE ROYS  47:37 It's weird. It's just weird. LAURA BARRINGER  47:39 I know. One day, I just wandered into this, like delightful conversation with a Quaker pastor. And I remember his name, because we have a family friend of the same name, Scott Wagner, and he posted pictures, and I don't know anything about the Quakers other than what I've read, you know, just a little bit. So I'm not I don't know where they stand theologically at all. But his pictures were so startling to me. They were getting ready for a meeting. And the chairs were set up in a circle. And it was just in this like, small room with wooden floors. And after coming out of the Willow Creek tradition was like, well, where's the speaker gonna stand? But that wasn't what the goal was at all. It was like a meeting where everybody was seen as equals. And I don't know, it seems like is that how the early church was? That's how I picture people in my head, like, sitting in a circle together. Not like all of us staring at a person on stage. JULIE ROYS  48:44 I have to say, being in a house church now and experiencing meeting in homes, and we haven't had a sermon. You know, in the past 18 months since I've been going to our house church. There's no sermon. We're opening the Bible. And there's a facilitator and we dig in together, and we study the Bible together. And I just love it. I mean, I come away every Sunday, it's like, wow, that was rich, that was really good. And I've gone to a church too where we were in the round, in fact, is one of your colleagues there, Dave Fitch, his church that we attended, where we would have the chairs all in a circle, I love that, I think in the Anglican tradition, instead of the sermon being the highlight, really, the table is. Eucharist. That's the highlight, and that communicates a value. So I think looking at what are we doing in the service, and I have wondered about this. And to me, the fact that we make a man on stage preaching, which is very heavy head knowledge. And I'm not saying that's wrong, but I'm, I often wonder if that's sort of a post enlightenment way of thinking that the pinnacle of the service is the sermon? SCOT McKNIGHT  49:56 It happened at the reformation that turned the sermon into a major, the major focus. The early church didn't have sermons. LAURA BARRINGER  50:04 They had letters, right? They would hear, read letters? JULIE ROYS  50:07 And at that one sermon where, what is it Eutychus?  Fell out the window and died. You know, SCOT McKNIGHT  50:12 Paul was talking, he was talking. But I mean, it was a it was a house church, you're talking about a normal sized living room with maybe an atrium with some water in the middle. And people around it talking and someone instructors instruction. There'd be the reading of a letter. There'd be the exposition of a psalm or something. And eventually, they would read scriptures and then preach about or teach about it. But it was a fellowship, where there was instruction, there was prayer, there was worship, there was caring for one another. And that's where the church got started. Jesus didn't preach sermons in the houses, he told stories, parables, it's where the parables came from. JULIE ROYS  50:59 Well, obviously, there's a lot of things that we can do to sort of jumpstart transformation. We've talked about some of those. But I love that you kind of land this book with where the power really comes from. And it's from the Holy Spirit, and it's from God's grace. So talk about the importance of relying on the Spirit, and grace, so that we're not manufacturing something but we're actually being led by God. SCOT McKNIGHT  51:31 When we were writing this book, I told Laura, probably 10 times, every chapter could be the first chapter. They were all interlocking. LAURA BARRINGER  51:39 We had trouble ordering the chapters. SCOT McKNIGHT  51:42 And theologically, I wanted to begin with that theological ending, but I know that just sounds like I'm a seminary professor. And we've got to get people interested in the topic first. So the neuralgics is what it's called sometimes. So yeah, I think the example of Christ, the significance of the Holy Spirit being open to the Spirit, the power of God's grace, which is operative, in the example of Christ, and in the power of the Spirit, all those things are what ultimately is responsible for transformation of an individual person, and of a community, a church. If we think it's just mechanics, and structure, and system and program, it's gonna go dry. But when it is the dynamic of the Spirit of God, leading us, prompting us, directing us, making us change, making us think of new things, we're in the right place. LAURA BARRINGER  52:39 That's what I love about the story of Oak Hills is that they say we felt this sense of dis equilibrium in our soul. And they surrendered to what they felt the Spirit was telling them and leading them. And they followed. And I think they would say, the transformation was worth it. Rather than having consumers, they were discipling people to grow in Christ. And they were like, we just steadily pushed against the culture, and taught people how to live like Jesus. That was it. JULIE ROYS  53:12 And I believe that Jesus said, his last words were not to go and make big churches or converts. But yeah, to make disciples, that is, what the church should be doing. And so I just really appreciate what you guys have put together here in this book, and that you're really moving people, I think, towards something beautiful and something good. Any last thoughts or final encouragement for those who might be thinking of embarking on this journey of trying to transform or are in the midst of it. And I mean, as I said, at the beginning, it's not for the faint of heart, it's not going to be easy. It could be a seven year or even longer process, any encouragement for them right now. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:00 I would say go with it. There's going to be many times when you'd like to return back to where you started and say, we'll just go back to where it was working. Roll with it. Because it's going to be different for every group. But it's worth it to pursue this direction, to see what God can do in your church and in your institution, over time, as you begin to focus on, let's say, the power of God's grace to transform us into being people who are like Jesus Christ. JULIE ROYS  54:34 And that's pretty exciting. LAURA BARRINGER  54:36 Amen. JULIE ROYS  54:37 Well, again, thank you so much. I really appreciate both of you and appreciate the ministry that you're having and the impact that you're having. This has been extremely helpful. So thank you. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:48 Thank you, Julie. LAURA BARRINGER  54:49 Thank you for having us. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:51 Thanks, Laura. LAURA BARRINGER  54:52 Thanks, Dad. JULIE ROYS  54:54 Scot and Laura, thank you so much for the gift of this book—and the gift of your time today. This has been so helpful . . . And if you'd like a copy of Scot & Laura's new book, Pivot, we would be happy to send you one for a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report. Again, we don't have any large donors or advertising. We simply have you—the people who care about exposing toxic churches and leaders, and then encouraging them to transform into TOV ones. So, if you'd like to support our work and get the book Pivot, just go to JulieRoys.com/donate. Also, I want to let you know that next week, I'll be releasing another talk from Restore by Carson Weitnauer on Disillusionment and Hope. This is an extremely vulnerable and moving talk where Carson tells his profound disillusionment when he discovered the truth about Ravi Zacharias. At the time, Carson was a director at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries—and Ravi had been his hero. This is such a painfully honest, yet hopeful, talk—and one you won't want to miss. So, be watching for that. We'll release the talk as both an audio podcast and a video at my YouTube channel. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way, you won't miss any of these episodes! And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then, please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks for joining me today! Hope you were blessed and encouraged!   Read more

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss a quote from Scot McKnight. The quote challenges the notion that leaders ought to control and asserts, instead, that leaders, particularly pastors, are actually followers of Jesus. Bolsinger emphasizes the importance of biblical leadership, rooted in self-sacrifice, care, and a focus on mission. He highlights the need to move away from dysfunctional patterns of leadership and instead raise up models of leadership that honor Jesus and reflect God's desire for the world. Ultimately, leadership is seen as a function, not a title, with leaders taking personal responsibility and inviting others to join in following Jesus and fulfilling His mission on Earth.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scot McKnight in Episode 92: Against a Culture of Abuse."We are not leaders of others; we are followers of Jesus. 'Join us in following Jesus,' is the pastor's call."Ep. 92 is a conversation inspired by Scot Mcknight's and Laura Barringer's book, A Church Called Tov.Download the FREE course, Becoming Leaders of Shalom.

Beth Allison Barr is the James Vardaman Professor of History at Baylor University and author of the book The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth. Today, Beth shares how she grew up knowing Jesus, learning that there were some things women didn't do, and how intellectual curiosity is deeply important for her spiritual journey. We also discuss how knowing Church history and taking a curious approach to biblical interpretation can shape our faith in positive ways. Beth's story reminds us that understanding church history with an inquisitive mind is a vital part of Christian growth. Listen to Beth's story here or where you get your podcasts. Stories Beth shared: Growing up in a Christian family in Texas Never not knowing faith in Jesus and getting baptized as a young woman Realizing that there were expected gender roles in high school Using her intellectual curiosity and how that clashed with a literal interpretation of the Bible The distinction between man's interpretation of God and who God really is Meeting her husband Seeing churches regressing in terms of intellectual curiosity Why KJV only is problematic Why historical context is critical to understanding texts How medieval history can help us now Being angry at God and the letters of despair that helped her When God spoke to her after her husband was fired Historical context and how it helps our hermeneutic Great quotes from Beth: My parents were never afraid of me being curious. My story fits into a story that's a lot bigger than me and I'm thankful to be part of that story. Historical context does not diminish the Bible as God's Word. It just helps us better understand God's Word. God does not look like the white, Evangelical church. Resources we mentioned: Beth's website The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth by Beth Allison Barr The Rise of Christianity by Rodney Stark The Showings by Julian of Norwich Related episodes: Aaron Niequist and Swimming in the Eternal Current Aimee Byrd and Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer and Becoming an Agent of Good Kristen Du Mez and Knowing Church History The post Beth Allison Barr and Christian Curiosity appeared first on Eric Nevins.

In this episode, Caleb talks with Scot and Laura about their book, Pivot, and more.Links MentionedScot on SubstackLaura BarringerPivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture by Scot Mcknight and Laura BarringerEpisode 346: Scot McKnightCaleb's Substack

Today, I have the honor of getting to talk with Dr. Scot McKnight. I know talking about the church falling apart does NOT sound fun...but it's such a needed conversation right now. So many of us have been or are currently in a complicated spot with a church. Dr. McKnight teaches us about hope, pain, and leadership. Y'all know I also LOVE a good Gospel conversation and this does not disappoint! I think you're really going to love learning from him. His latest book—co-written with Laura Barringer—called Pivot, which is such an important read if you're a pastor or church leader or a business leader. It is a helpful, hard, beautiful book. We begin the conversation talking a good bit about church hurt and if this is a part of your story, this episode may be tender to you. I wanted you to know beforehand so you can take care of your heart. . . . . Subscribe to Let's Read the Gospels with Annie F. Downs HERE. Go to https://anniefdowns.com/gospels to purchase your October Reading Plan or Let's Read the Gospels Guidebook. . . . . . Head to anniefdowns.com/books for more information and to sign up for the AFD Book of the Month. . . . . . Sign up to receive the AFD Week In Review email and ask questions to future guests! #thatsoundsfunpodcast . . . . . Thank you to our sponsors! BetterHelp Online Therapy: Visit betterhelp.com/THATSOUNDSFUN today to get 10% off your first month. Liquid I.V.: Get 20% off when you go to LIQUIDIV.COM and use code THATSOUNDSFUN at checkout. Kitsch: Go to MyKitsch.com/thatsoundsfun to get 30% off your entire order. Earth Breeze: Subscribe to Earth Breeze and save 40%! Go to earthbreeze.com/thatsoundsfun to get started. . . . . . If you'd like to partner with Annie as a sponsor for the That Sounds Fun podcast, fill out our Advertise With Us form! . . . . . NYTimes bestselling Christian author, speaker, and host of the That Sounds Fun Podcast, Annie F. Downs shares with you some of her favorite things: new books, faith conversations, entertainers not to miss, and interviews with friends.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sam welcomes father-daughter duo and theologians Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. In their book “Pivot,” Scot and Laura help churches to implement practices, establish priorities, and cultivate gospel-centered qualities that form goodness cultures. Scot is professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary. Laura is a teacher and coauthored “A Church Called Tov” with Scot. The post Pivot: An Interview with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer appeared first on Church Answers.

How do you transform your church's culture from toxic to healthy and life giving? That's the question that Scot Mcknight and Laura Barringer answer in their new book Pivot. Peyton and Pete discuss what red flags to look for in your culture and why it's even more important for church planters to get things right from the beginning.Thanks for listening to the church planter podcast. We're here to help you go where no one else is going and do what no one else is doing to reach people, no one else is reaching.Make sure to review and subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast service to help us connect with more church planters.

How is a practice of shared leadership resistance against oppressive and harmful structures? Weylin Lee vulnerably reflects on the journey of Vox from hierarchy toward non-hierarchy and how this practice is a form of resistance.  [Philippians 2:1-8]   Reflection Who are the voices we need to include at the table? In what ways might you practice love with the most vulnerable? What areas of power and privilege are we invited to let go of? Resources Podcast: The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill by Christianity Today Book: When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse by Chuck DeGroat Book: A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture by Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer

After the release of their groundbreaking book, A Church Called Tov, which recorded the stories of abuse and toxic church cultures at some of the most prominent churches in the United States, New Testament scholar and blogger for Christianity Today Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer heard from a flood of people who had experienced similar instances of abuse. After all they've seen and heard, they still believe it's possible for church cultures to be transformed from toxic to tov—from oppressive to good.   In Pivot, Scot and Laura help churches to implement practices,establish priorities, and cultivate the Kingdom Gospel-centered qualities that form goodness cultures. Readers will find answers to the four most common questions people have about culture transformation: How can I transform the culture in my church or organization to make it tov?  I believe my workplace has unhealthy values. How do I initiate change? How do I unleash a culture of goodness in my ministry?  I'm not in a position of church leadership. What are some red flags that indicate a toxic culture, and what can I do if I see them? Pivot also includes the following practical features:  The “Tov tool,” a survey to help you discern your organization's culture and to promote spiritual conversations  A “getting to work” section at the end of each chapter with questions and next steps for application Transformation is never easy. But for the sake of the next generation, we must do it.   Scot McKnight (PhD, University of Nottingham) is a world-renowned speaker, writer, professor, and equipper of the Church. He is a recognized authority on the historical Jesus, early Christianity, and the New Testament. His books have been translated into Chinese, Korean, Russian, and Portuguese. He is the author of The Jesus Creed, The Blue Parakeet, The King Jesus Gospel, Revelation for the Rest of Us, numerous commentaries, and is now writing a sixteen-volume series of reflections called The Everyday Bible Study.

How do we call out injustice and seek shalom without becoming self-righteous? In their new book, Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture, father-daughter duo Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer follow up their previous book, A Church Called Tov一charting a course for those seeking to create a healthier church culture. In this episode, they share with Steve Carter: How healthier churches exist when leaders listen to the Spirit and surrender to his leading. How to build a church culture in which power is stewarded, not abused; where people are shepherded, not manipulated; where leadership is accountable, not untouchable. How to diagnose the health of your heart and team, even when everything looks “put-together” externally. How to respond thoughtfully to abuse and scandal in the digital age. This book is a must-read for any pastor, leader, discipler, human, who aches to see the church become tov. EPISODE LINKS Scot and Laura's co-written books: Pivot, A Church Called Tov Laura's website: https://www.laurabarringer.net/ Scot's Substack: https://scotmcknight.substack.com/ https://www.churchcalledtov.org/ @scotmcknight @laurambarringer @steveryancarter @craft_character Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What has been your experience of (non)hierarchy in faith communities? At the beginning of our Fall vision series, Gena St. David interrogates our relationship to power and experience of hierarchy in light of a nonviolent messiah who embodied humility.  [Philippians 2:5-8]   Reflection What are the strengths and shadows of hierarchy? How might I practice embracing myself, and others? Do I tend to overutilize or underutilize my power?  Resources Podcast: The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill by Christianity Today Book: When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse by Chuck DeGroat Book: A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture by Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer

Scot returns to the podcast and we have the honor to have co author Laura Barringer join us today. We have a pertinent and timely conversation about the importance of TOV culture in the church and how we can be agents of change when we find ourselves in a toxic culture. Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers than can Transform Your Church- https://amzn.to/3r2D8GD*As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

Kevin has a great conversation with the authors of "A Church Called Tov" and "Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture," Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. "Pivot" is the follow-up book to "A Church Called TOV" Purchase Scot and Laura's latest book, "Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture," at https://www.amazon.com/Pivot-Priorities-Practices-Transform-Culture-ebook/dp/B0BX187ZTD Available Sept. 19, 2023 CGU creates spaces for Christians to gather so that we might recognize Jesus in one another. If you are blessed by this ministry, please consider a tax-deductible monthly donation. Please donate at https://www.commongroundsunity.org/donate. Please check out commongroundsunity.org to learn more about CGU, how to subscribe to the newsletter, join the Facebook group, or find the YouTube Channel. Check out the gatherings page, where you can connect with other unity-minded Christians in your area. If you cannot find a gathering in your area, we can help you start one. It's not difficult or time-consuming, and we will help you out along the way. It really does, simply, start with a cup of coffee. If you want to volunteer or ask questions, please email John at john@commongroundsunity.org. Until next time, God bless, and remember, “Unity Starts With A Cup of Coffee.” The Common Grounds Unity theme music for our intro and exit for Season 3 is Cody Martin's "Forever with You." Download and permission to use from Sound Stripe.

Laura Barringer is a Teacher, Writer, and TMT SurvivorWe had a wonderful talk about what to do in the acute phase of your massive thing (TMT), what to do when you're stuck, and how God is faithful in all of it.You can pre-order Laura's new book, Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture, by clicking the button below.Laura's first book, A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing was one of my favorite books of 2021.Scripture: Psalm 46:10, Psalm 34:18Music by Eileen and Tommy Walker(Music shared on The Dr. Lee Warren Podcast is authorized under BMI license #61063253 and ASCAP license #400010513 )My new book is called Hope is the First Dose: A Treatment Plan for Recovering from Trauma, Tragedy, and Other Massive Things.Laura's endorsement of Hope Is the First Dose: “I found refuge within the pages of Dr. Warren's writing. His words of God's goodness and hope guided me through the darkness of trauma and pain and led me to the good, comforting presence of our Great Physician.”—Laura Barringer, co-author of A Church Called Tov and PivotIf you want to WEAR hope, you can order tee shirts and other gear from my website! Check out the store here:And we have a new YouVersion/Bible App 5-Day Bible Study available now!Self-Brain Surgery with Dr. Lee Warren is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit drleewarren.substack.com/subscribe

You cannot seem to escape it, church scandal after church scandal, with no clear end in sight. It should not surprise us that church attendance in the Unites States is dropping, and quickly. How do we fix it? How do we create a church that is good and one that fulfills its purpose? In 2020 Scot and Laura published their book, "A Church Called Tov" discussing some of these pressing issues surrounding the church. On Sept 19th their latest book "Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture" will be available. Scot and Laura join Aaron to discuss what are some of the practices to help craft a church into a Tov culture, what can one do who is not in leadership in a church in this vision, and what do we do with power and authority (when it is often used so poorly)?

Kathy and Chip, two friends of our lead and founding Pastors working closely with both, join Lynne and Joey to discuss the toxic cultures and pastor downfalls that mega churches are unfortunately being increasingly known for.  Both are fairly confident that our two main leaders won't have similar falls.During the course of this conversation, we have guest segments with Laura Barringer (co-author of A Church Called Tov) as well as with Joey's friend, Hayden, who experienced very poor treatment by church leadership during a very low season of life.   Joey also brings on former staff members he worked alongside to talk about the special working relationships they all shared during time leading a Seacoast church location together.  Lastly, Zach Bolen, solo artist and singer/song-writer of the band Citizens, shares perspective on today's subject at hand, based on his experiences at multiple churches.  The episode closes with a song from his band.Stay ConnectedWebsite | Facebook Discussion Page  In this episodeKathy Roseborough / InstagramJoey Svendsen / InstagramLynne Stroy / InstagramChip Judd / InstagramJack Hoey III, host / InstagramLaura Barringer / Instagram / Book / WebsiteHayden Corr / InstagramSarah Eller / InstagramRobbie Madison / InstagramZach Bolen / Instagram / Spotify / Apple MusicSpecial MusicNatasha Gray's "Stones" is from her newest album "Reminders" // Spotify / Apple MusicZach Bolen's "A Thousand Shores," courtesy of his band Citizens, is from the album  "I Can't Find the Edges of You" // Spotify / Apple Music Executive Producer: Josh SurrattProducer/Editor: Joey SvendsenSound Engineer/Editor: JT PriceSound Engineer: Katelyn VandiverMusic, theme song: Joel T. Hamilton Music

We're joined this week by father-daughter team, Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, co-authors of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.   Their book was inspired by the events at Willow Creek Church, prompting them to explore toxic church cultures and the need for change. They contrast toxic church cultures with tov cultures (tov meaning "good" in Hebrew).   In toxic church cultures such as Mars Hill or Willow Creek, the marks include narcissism, fear, institution creep, false narratives, loyalty culture, celebrity culture, and a focus on leadership culture. On the other hand, tov cultures are characterized by empathy, grace, people-first approach, telling the truth, justice, service culture, and Christlikeness culture.   Their book has provided language and hope for those who have experienced toxicity in churches, giving a voice to the wounded resistors. In their upcoming book, Pivot, Scot and Laura focus on the "how" of building tov cultures.   We hope you'll find that this conversation continues our goal of not only exposing the characteristics of toxic church culture but also offering hope for restoration and the rebuilding of a different and healthier community of believers.   Listener resources: Check out A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer Pre-order Scot and Laura's follow up book, Pivot: the Priorities, Practices and Powers that Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture , coming in September 2023 Read Laura Barringer's article, “Willow Creek's Core Meeting: A Response” in Christianity Today. More works referenced in this episode: Lectures on Calvinism by Abraham Kuyper; H. Richard Niebuhr; David Brooks; Organizational Culture and Leadership by Edgar Schein. If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

Transform toxic cultures and pivot towards emotional health as authors Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer guide churches and institutions through a gritty and transformative process that challenges the quick-fix mentality in creating cultures of goodness.It's gritty and messy, not flashy and glitzy. Making a difference requires deep, transformative change. - Scot McKnightIn this episode, you will be able to:Master the art of fostering emotionally nourishing spaces inside your church or institution.Explore the influence of power and its four prepositions in sparking timely institutional transformations.Understand the vital role of character development in shaping healthier and more efficient environments.Get acquainted with thoughtful strategies and dynamic tools that promise positive change within your organization.Comprehend the intricate process of transformation, emphasizing the importance of long-term accountability and ownership.My special guests are Scot McKnight, Laura BarringerToday's conversation features Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, a dynamic father-daughter duo. Scot's knowledge of the Bible and theology is deeply respected, and his role as the Chair of New Testament at Northern Seminary further enhances that authority. His extensive bibliography includes favorites like “The King Jesus Gospel” and insightful commentaries on James Galatians and First Peter. Laura, an elementary school teacher by trade, has found her voice in writing. She has not only co-authored with Scot but is also making strides in public speaking. Together, their latest book, “Pivot”, explores transformative cultural change in churches and institutions.The resources mentioned in this episode are:It's not about the next biggest hit that we're addicted to. It's about deep work that walks through shame and does repair. - Laura BarringerPurchase A Church Called Tov bookPurchase Pivot bookCheck out Dr. Scot McKnight's other books, such as The King Jesus Gospel and his commentaries on James, Galatians, and 1 PeterExplore the Second Testament Bible translation by Dr. Scot McKnightLearn more about the New Testament chair at Northern SeminaryConsider booking Laura Barrringer for speaking engagementsCheck out the Christian Book Award finalist nomination for A Church Called ToveExplore the concept of Darvo mentioned in the podcastLearn about the three P's in Pivot: priorities, practices, and powersFocus on character development in churches and institutionsTake character tests and assessments mentioned in the bookConsider the power dynamics in your own church or organizationReflect on how power is used and misusedLearn from the example of Oak Hills Church in CaliforniaExplore Dallas Willard's ideas of transformationConsider reducing church size and budget to focus on transformationUnderstand the importance of empathy and care in leadershipWe are delighted to have Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer joining us today. Scot is a revered figure in the world of theology, not just as the chair of New Testament at Northern Seminary, but also as an established author introducing new perspectives on the Christian faith. His latest bible translation, The Second Testament, has been positively received by the community. Laura, Scot's daughter, is equally accomplished. An elementary school teacher by profession, Laura's influence extends to the written word. She uses her experiences and insights in extending conversations around church culture. Their collective wisdom in faith-based discussions is mirrored in their latest collaboration, “Pivot”.The key moments in this episode are:00:00:02 - Introduction, 00:03:04 - Overview of "Pivot," 00:08:59 -...

I had the opportunity to interview my friend and fellow educator, Laura Barringer, a couple of years ago on her book "A Church Called Tov" and what it might mean for us in our classrooms and schools as educators. This conversation we added her father and New Testament scholar, Scot McKnight, who coauthored "Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture" which comes out in September.

Mars Hill Church pastor Mark Driscoll was known to portray Jesus as a warrior or an “ultimate fighter” in his teachings. He wasn't the only one. In the Western church, our society's obsession with violence and militarism has found its way into our theology in subtle - and not so subtle - ways. But is this an accurate portrayal of Christ, the Prince of Peace?    This week, host Joel Kiekintveld is joined by Dr. Joel Aguilar to talk about how we can construct our churches in a non-violent way by looking at scripture through the lens of the forgiving victim.   Supporting resources: Read the transcript from today's episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast Dr. Aguilar presents the theories of mimetic desire and rivalry from René Girard in this conversation. You can read more about Girard's life and work here. Other resources cited for further exploration: read the works of James Alison, Catholic theologian, priest, and author, and check out A Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

“Only one side could be telling the truth and it's really disturbing either way.” - Laura BarringerOn this episode of Restoring the Soul, Michael welcomes Laura Barringer to the podcast.Over the past decade, we have seen incredible examples of toxic church culture that has upended congregations and has left thousands of church staff and congregants confused and shaken. In 2020 Laura co-authored a book with her father titled “A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.” Together, they dedicated the book to “the wounded resisters” which provides a framework to create a “good” church culture rather than a toxic one to prevent further abuse.  As you'll hear in her interview with Michael, Laura has firsthand experience of toxic church culture.Laura is a graduate of Wheaton College and makes her home in the Chicago suburbs with her husband and three beagles.   HELPFUL RESOURCES:A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes HealingDiscover how the barrier built by porn addiction can become a bridge to abundant life.What if lust for porn is really a search for true passion?In a world where there are 68 million searches for pornography every day and where over 70 percent of Christian men report viewing porn in the last year, it's no surprise that more and more men struggle with an addiction to this false fantasy. Common wisdom says if they just had more willpower or more faith, their fight would be over. Contact Restoring the Soul:- Tweet us at @michaeljcusick and @PodcastRTS- Like us on Facebook- Email us at info@restoringthesoul.comThanks for listening!

Scot McKnight is the Julius R. Mantey Chair of New Testament at Northern Seminary. He's the author of numerous books including Jesus Creed, Blue Parakeet, King Jesus Gospel and A Church Called Tov, which he co-authored with his daughter Laura Barringer.  Today we're talking about a new New Testament translation that Scot has completed that will be released on June 6. In our interview, Scot calls it a "crunchy and clunky translation" as a way of describing some of how he approached this work. It's a translation that will cause you to experience some of the New Testament in fresh ways because of the choices he makes.  Check out The Second Testament Find Scot at Scot's Newsletter Substack Twitter  

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scot Mcknight in Episode 92: Against a Culture of Abuse."A tov pastor, tov leaders, a tov church does not abuse power, does not sexually abuse women, does not sexually abuse children....  Tov people don't do these things."Ep. 92 is a conversation with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer about their book, A Church Called Tov.Learn how to lead your church into ministry that matters. Check out my online course, Engaging God's Mission.

Putting people first is a big part of living tov. Today, Laura Barringer, author and kindergarten teacher, joins Jon Eckert to discuss her 20-plus year teaching career and her unexpected journey to writing her book, A Church Called Tov. She details how living tov has enabled her to see each student as individuals and create respectful, safe spaces for them.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Timestamps:[1:44] - Jon introduces Laura.[3:10] - Laura discusses her unexpected journey to writing her book.[5:24] - There are a lot of lessons about living Tov that can be applied to teaching.[8:13] - Kindergarten is hope.[12:35] - Laura shares a life-giving moment she recently experienced.[16:06] - Having open communication with colleges is important.[19:00] - Creating respectful spaces helps students talk about things that don't feel safe.[21:50] - Laura strives to resist toxicity within her classroom.[23:00] - Jon puts Laura through a lightning round of questions.Books:A Chuch Called Tov by Laura BarringerConnect on Social Media:Baylor MA in School LeadershipBaylor Doctorate in EducationJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl

Scot McKnight co-author of the book A Church called Tov joins us on the podcast today to discuss the book he wrote with Laura Barringer on how we can shape culture to represent Christ.Send questions for Back Channel with Foth to aaron.santmyire@agwmafrica.org

Speaker: Pastor Nick Ressler Date: March 5, 2023 Synopsis: Good morning and welcome to Conoy Brethren in Christ Church. We're in a series called Tov based on the book by the same title written by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. The series is meant to grapple with the scandalous problem of abuse culture in modern culture and how to leave toxicity behind for a culture of good. Tov is the Hebrew word for good. This morning Pastor Nick brings our TOV series to a close with a final teaching on the importance of nurturing Christlikeness. The Brethren in Christ is an Anabaptist denomination nearly 250 years old. It values community, scripture, fellowship and living a life centered on Jesus. You can visit www.bicus.org for more information. Intro Music: Inspire And Motivate by Mixaund | https://mixaund.bandcamp.com Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com Outro Music: Inspiring Beat by Alex Menco | https://alexmenco.net Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/deed.en_US

Speaker: Pastor Nick Ressler Date: February 26, 2023 Synopsis: Good morning and welcome to Conoy Brethren in Christ Church. We're in a series called Tov based on the book by the same title written by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. The series is meant to grapple with the scandalous problem of abuse culture in modern culture and how to leave toxicity behind for a culture of good. Tov is the Hebrew word for good. This morning Pastor Nick talks about nurturing Service and avoiding celebrity culture. The Brethren in Christ is an Anabaptist denomination nearly 250 years old. It values community, scripture, fellowship and living a life centered on Jesus. You can visit www.bicus.org for more information. Intro Music: Inspire And Motivate by Mixaund | https://mixaund.bandcamp.com Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com Outro Music: Inspiring Beat by Alex Menco | https://alexmenco.net Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/deed.en_US

Speaker: Pastor Nick Ressler Date: February 19, 2023 Synopsis: Good morning and welcome to Conoy Brethren in Christ Church. We're in a series called Tov based on the book by the same title written by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. The series is meant to grapple with the scandalous problem of abuse culture in modern culture and how to leave toxicity behind for a culture of good. Tov is the Hebrew word for good. This morning Pastor Nick talks about nurturing Justice and avoiding a brand loyalty. The Brethren in Christ is an Anabaptist denomination nearly 250 years old. It values community, scripture, fellowship and living a life centered on Jesus. You can visit www.bicus.org for more information. Intro Music: Inspire And Motivate by Mixaund | https://mixaund.bandcamp.com Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com Outro Music: Inspiring Beat by Alex Menco | https://alexmenco.net Music promoted by https://www.free-stock-music.com Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/deed.en_US

“How do you restart a dormant career without destroying everything that you love in the process?” - Kevin TracyIf you haven't heard, the church has been experiencing a mass exodus of pastors. Not because they are commissioned to plant new churches or join the mission field. They're leaving the ministry altogether. There are several reasons behind this trend. COVID wreaked havoc on the church, and political division has caused many pastors to rethink their calling. Recent data collected from the Barna organization indicated that U.S. pastors are currently in crisis and at risk of burnout. In 2021 alone, there was a dramatic increase in the number of pastors thinking about quitting ministry entirely. According to Barna, 38 percent indicated they have considered leaving full-time ministry within the past year. On today's edition of Restoring the Soul, Michael welcomes Kevin Tracy to the podcast. Kevin leads an organization called No Holy Handcuffs, whose primary mission is to help pastors discover how to leave the ministry & recover their calling. Helpful Resources:PodcastsEpisode 132 - Rev. Dr. Dennis Edwards, "Turning the Tables on Injustice"Episode 212 - Laura Barringer, "A Church Called TOV"WebsiteNo Holy Handcuffs Contact Restoring the Soul:- Tweet us at @michaeljcusick and @PodcastRTS- Like us on Facebook- Email us at info@restoringthesoul.comThanks for listening!

From the Very First Chapter, the Bible Teaches Us That God is GoodThe original language of the Bible, Hebrew, uses the word tov, which means "good." Join Lisa and me for a fascinating and important conversation with Laura Barringer and Scot McKnight, authors of the incredible book, A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes HealingHere's the book's website, where you can learn all about Laura and Scot.(Note: This conversation originally aired in June 2021. The free books have already been given away)Self-Brain Surgery with Dr. Lee Warren is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit drleewarren.substack.com/subscribe

Tov is a beautiful and mysterious Hebrew word that means “good.” Tov is about creating abundant spaces designed to help people live fully into their gifts. Based on Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer's book, A Church Called Tov. In this inaugural Tov for Women message, we engage in meaningful dialogue on how to build organizational structures and cultures where everyone thrives. Register for Tov for Women: https://www.cwlnorthern.com/events

Authors and educators, Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer talk to Amy Fritz about what they learned from publishing A Church Called Tov. A Church Called Tov- https://amzn.to/3OWtYS7 The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb- https://amzn.to/3QxyfwD Scot McKnight Substack Apology- https://scotmcknight.substack.com/p/an-apology Leave a review: https://podcasts.app.com/us/podcast/untangled-faith/id1561001170 Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/untangledfaith Where you can find me https://untangledfaithpodcast.com https://instagram.com/untangledfaith https://instagram.com/amyhenningfritz https://twitter.com/faithuntangled https://twitter.com/amyfritz https://facebook.com/untangledfaith This podcast is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For more information and for 10% off your first month, visit Faithful Counseling here: https://faithfulcounseling.com/untangled Host/Creator: Amy Fritz Producer: Michelle Pjanic

*Content warning*: this episode deals with clergy sexual abuse in religious institutions. If this topic is sensitive for you, feel free to skip the interview portion of the episode. If you're a survivor of clergy abuse, Hagar's Voice is here for you. Don't hesitate to reach out, it would be our honor to bear witness to your story. Email contact.hagarsvoice@gmail.com. Interview with pastor, friend, and volunteer at Hagar's Voice, Angela Lam. Angela shares about Hagar's Voice - an organization that supports women and other people who are victims of clergy sexual abuse - and how it came to be. She talks her own story of abuse, talks about how patterns in the greater Church lead to abuse, what we can do as Christians to prevent it, how to take action when a victim comes forward, and more. It is a conversation that is important for all Christians to hear with very practical steps to apply. Also in this episode, the pastors share some talkback from a Sunday meeting from a first-time visitor. As always, Spiritual Show and Tell to end the episode: MXPX, Ignatian Contemplation: Imaginative Prayer, and camping in the woods. //Notes// -Interview with Angela Lam- Prey Tell by Tiffany Bluhm: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=prey+tell+tiffany+bluhm&sprefix=prey+tell%2Caps%2C85&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_9 A Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer: https://www.amazon.com/Church-Called-Tov-Goodness-Promotes/dp/1496446003/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=139E6ZH5ZRB0Z&keywords=a+church+called+tov&qid=1656637455&sprefix=a+church+called+tov%2Caps%2C84&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE3N0kxV1pRVk5ZUjYmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAwOTcxNjczS0RIVTZBUUxaQUlCJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3NTk1MTIyVFdRWDhVVFFWQzJFJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== 7 Steps to Move the Needle of Safety for Women In Your Midst: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VQHwShVfi0ph-0yUF1gXraAk0vxOOvZGAEpT8T1OYEU/edit?usp=sharing - Spiritual Show and Tell - MXPX: https://mxpx.com/ Ignatian Contemplation: Imaginative Prayer: https://www.ignatianspirituality.com/ignatian-prayer/the-spiritual-exercises/ignatian-contemplation-imaginative-prayer/ //About this Podcast// Resist and Restore is a podcast by Circle of Hope. We're extending the table of our dialogue! Tune in bi-weekly as the Circle of Hope pastors—Rachel, Julie, and Jonny—sit down to dialogue about faith, God, Jesus, the spiritual life, and everything in between. Available on Spotify, iTunes/Apple Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, and more. //Contact Us// Website: https://circleofhope.church Email: ResistandRestorePodcast@circleofhope.net IG/TW: @circleofhopenet YouTube: https://youtube.com/circleofhope FB: https://fb.me/CircleofHopePhillyRegion Help keep the show running! Contribute at: https://circleofhope.church/share

James Bryan Smith is a professor at Friends University in Wichita, Kansa and author, including his new book, The Good and Beautiful You. Today, James tells us how he found Christ, his amazing set of mentors, and the season when he forgot his first love. He also shares how God thinks about us and why it's different that you may have been told. James' story reminds us that no matter where you are on the journey, you're loved by God deeply. Listen to James' story in your favorite podcast app now! Stories James shared: His work at Friends University as a teacher Growing up in a Methodist church in Denver Giving his life to Christ before he went to college Being mentored by spiritual formation luminaries Having Rich Mullings in his attic for two years Learning the spiritual disciplines from Richard Foster Going to seminary and being ordained in the United Methodist Church Why he wrote this book How he realized that his soul had needs that weren't being taken care of Why memorization of Scripture is valuable to him Great quotes from James: It goes a lot better if I think I'm quite marvelous. Every need my soul has, Jesus provides. I want to be at the point where I love God even if God doesn't provide all my spiritual feelings. God is crazy about you and loves you more than you can imagine. Resources we mentioned: James' website Things Above Podcast ApprenticeInstitute.org The Good and Beautiful You: Discovering the Person Jesus Created You to Be by James Bryan Smith Related episodes: Laura Barringer and Scot McKnight and Becoming an Agent of Tov Amy Jackson and Trusting God with the Questions Brian Zahnd and the Beauty of Christ The post James Bryan Smith and Loved Beyond Imagination appeared first on Eric Nevins.

Welcome to the eighth episode of the Power Shift Edition podcast season, another beautiful collaboration between Danielle Strickland and World Vision. We are connecting with people at the intersection of power shifting around the world, including World Vision staff.  In this episode, Danielle interviews Laura Barringer and Scot McKnight. Laura Barringer is an outspoken advocate for the wounded resisters of institutional abuse. Laura is coauthor of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Laura is a curriculum writer for Grow Kids, a ministry of Stuff You Can Use. She published articles for The Jesus Creed and The Englewood Review of Books, and her writing has been featured in Church Leaders, The Roys Report, and Converge Summit. Laura is a graduate of Wheaton College.Scot McKnight, a New Testament scholar who has written widely on the historical Jesus and Christian spirituality, is a Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary in Lombard, Illinois. He earned a bachelor's degree from Cornerstone University, a master's from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and a doctorate from the University of Nottingham. He has written more than 80 books, including the popular The Jesus Creed blog, which won an award from Christianity Today in 2004. You can read more from Scot at Substack.For more on all the things Danielle Strickland, go to daniellestrickland.comFor more information on Infinitum Life, go to infinitumlife.comFor more information on the Women Speakers Collective, go to womenspeakerscollective.comFor more information about Brave Global, go to braveglobal.orgCheck out these other collaborations with World Vision:Right Side Up course: Videos & activation guide from Season 1, on beatitudes:  https://www.worldvision.org/church/resources/rsu_curriculum Prayer Postures: https://www.worldvision.org/church/resources/prayerrhythms Soul Care for leaders: https://www.worldvision.org/church/resources/right-side-up-soul-care-with-danielle-strickland Resilient Leadership for Kingdom Come (pastor specific): https://www.worldvision.org/church/resources/resilient-leadership-for-kingdom-come Infinitum Prayer Days: https://infinitumlife.com/prayerday 

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Laura Barringer is an outspoken advocate for the wounded resisters of institutional abuse. Laura is co-author of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Laura is a curriculum writer for Grow Kids, a ministry of Stuff You Can Use. She previously co-authored the children's version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher's guide to accompany the book. She published articles for The Jesus Creed and The Englewood Review of Books, and her writing has been featured in Church Leaders, The Roys Report, and Converge Summit. Laura is a graduate of Wheaton College.

Recent news is littered with stories of Christian churches acting badly. Laura Barringer and her father Scot McKnight had a front row seat to one of these stories at Willow Creek Community Church outside of Chicago, IL. They have theorized in their book, A Church Called Tov, that there might be a better way to do church. We hope you enjoy listening to this interesting and enlightening conversation between Julie and Laura.Laura Barringer's BioA Church Called Tov ordering link

“Only one side could be telling the truth and it's really disturbing either way.” - Laura BarringerOn this episode of Restoring the Soul, Michael welcomes Laura Barringer to the podcast. Over the past decade, we have seen incredible examples of toxic church culture that has upended congregations and has left thousands of church staff and congregants confused and shaken. In 2020 Laura co-authored a book with her father titled “A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.” Together, they dedicated the book to “the wounded resisters” which provides a framework to create a “good” church culture rather than a toxic one in order to prevent further abuse.  As you'll hear in her interview with Michael, Laura has firsthand experience of toxic church culture.Laura is a graduate of Wheaton College and makes her home in the Chicago suburbs with her husband and three beagles.   HELPFUL RESOURCES:A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes HealingRiverside.fm