Podcast appearances and mentions of tony hey

Tony Baer, Principal at dbInsight, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss his definition of what is and isn't a database, and the trends he's seeing in the industry. Tony explains why it's important to try and have an outsider's perspective when evaluating new ideas, and the growing awareness of the impact data has on our daily lives. Corey and Tony discuss the importance of working towards true operational simplicity in the cloud, and Tony also shares why explainability in generative AI is so crucial as the technology advances. About TonyTony Baer, the founder and CEO of dbInsight, is a recognized industry expert in extending data management practices, governance, and advanced analytics to address the desire of enterprises to generate meaningful value from data-driven transformation. His combined expertise in both legacy database technologies and emerging cloud and analytics technologies shapes how clients go to market in an industry undergoing significant transformation. During his 10 years as a principal analyst at Ovum, he established successful research practices in the firm's fastest growing categories, including big data, cloud data management, and product lifecycle management. He advised Ovum clients regarding product roadmap, positioning, and messaging and helped them understand how to evolve data management and analytic strategies as the cloud, big data, and AI moved the goal posts. Baer was one of Ovum's most heavily-billed analysts and provided strategic counsel to enterprises spanning the Fortune 100 to fast-growing privately held companies.With the cloud transforming the competitive landscape for database and analytics providers, Baer led deep dive research on the data platform portfolios of AWS, Microsoft Azure, and Google Cloud, and on how cloud transformation changed the roadmaps for incumbents such as Oracle, IBM, SAP, and Teradata. While at Ovum, he originated the term “Fast Data” which has since become synonymous with real-time streaming analytics.Baer's thought leadership and broad market influence in big data and analytics has been formally recognized on numerous occasions. Analytics Insight named him one of the 2019 Top 100 Artificial Intelligence and Big Data Influencers. Previous citations include Onalytica, which named Baer as one of the world's Top 20 thought leaders and influencers on Data Science; Analytics Week, which named him as one of 200 top thought leaders in Big Data and Analytics; and by KDnuggets, which listed Baer as one of the Top 12 top data analytics thought leaders on Twitter. While at Ovum, Baer was Ovum's IT's most visible and publicly quoted analyst, and was cited by Ovum's parent company Informa as Brand Ambassador in 2017. In raw numbers, Baer has 14,000 followers on Twitter, and his ZDnet “Big on Data” posts are read 20,000 – 30,000 times monthly. He is also a frequent speaker at industry conferences such as Strata Data and Spark Summit.Links Referenced:dbInsight: https://dbinsight.io/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is brought to us in part by our friends at RedHat.As your organization grows, so does the complexity of your IT resources. You need a flexible solution that lets you deploy, manage, and scale workloads throughout your entire ecosystem. The Red Hat Ansible Automation Platform simplifies the management of applications and services across your hybrid infrastructure with one platform. Look for it on the AWS Marketplace.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Back in my early formative years, I was an SRE sysadmin type, and one of the areas I always avoided was databases, or frankly, anything stateful because I am clumsy and unlucky and that's a bad combination to bring within spitting distance of anything that, you know, can't be spun back up intact, like databases. So, as a result, I tend not to spend a lot of time historically living in that world. It's time to expand horizons and think about this a little bit differently. My guest today is Tony Baer, principal at dbInsight. Tony, thank you for joining me.Tony: Oh, Corey, thanks for having me. And by the way, we'll try and basically knock down your primal fear of databases today. That's my mission.Corey: We're going to instill new fears in you. Because I was looking through a lot of your work over the years, and the criticism I have—and always the best place to deliver criticism is massively in public—is that you take a very conservative, stodgy approach to defining a database, whereas I'm on the opposite side of the world. I contain information. You can ask me about it, which we'll call querying. That's right. I'm a database.But I've never yet found myself listed in any of your analyses around various database options. So, what is your definition of databases these days? Where do they start and stop? Tony: Oh, gosh.Corey: Because anything can be a database if you hold it wrong.Tony: [laugh]. I think one of the last things I've ever been called as conservative and stodgy, so this is certainly a way to basically put the thumbtack on my share.Corey: Exactly. I'm trying to normalize my own brand of lunacy, so we'll see how it goes.Tony: Exactly because that's the role I normally play with my clients. So, now the shoe is on the other foot. What I view a database is, is basically a managed collection of data, and it's managed to the point where essentially, a database should be transactional—in other words, when I basically put some data in, I should have some positive information, I should hopefully, depending on the type of database, have some sort of guidelines or schema or model for how I structure the data. So, I mean, database, you know, even though you keep hearing about unstructured data, the fact is—Corey: Schemaless databases and data stores. Yeah, it was all the rage for a few years.Tony: Yeah, except that they all have schemas, just that those schemaless databases just have very variable schema. They're still schema.Corey: A question that I have is you obviously think deeply about these things, which should not come as a surprise to anyone. It's like, “Well, this is where I spend my entire career. Imagine that. I might think about the problem space a little bit.” But you have, to my understanding, never worked with databases in anger yourself. You don't have a history as a DBA or as an engineer—Tony: No.Corey: —but what I find very odd is that unlike a whole bunch of other analysts that I'm not going to name, but people know who I'm talking about regardless, you bring actual insights into this that I find useful and compelling, instead of reverting to the mean of well, I don't actually understand how any of these things work in reality, so I'm just going to believe whoever sounds the most confident when I ask a bunch of people about these things. Are you just asking the right people who also happen to sound confident? But how do you get away from that very common analyst trap?Tony: Well, a couple of things. One is I purposely play the role of outside observer. In other words, like, the idea is that if basically an idea is supposed to stand on its own legs, it has to make sense. If I've been working inside the industry, I might take too many things for granted. And a good example of this goes back, actually, to my early days—actually this goes back to my freshman year in college where I was taking an organic chem course for non-majors, and it was taught as a logic course not as a memorization course.And we were given the option at the end of the term to either, basically, take a final or  do a paper. So, of course, me being a writer I thought, I can BS my way through this. But what I found—and this is what fascinated me—is that as long as certain technical terms were defined for me, I found a logic to the way things work. And so, that really informs how I approach databases, how I approach technology today is I look at the logic  on how things work. That being said, in order for me to understand that, I need to know twice as much as the next guy in order to be able to speak that because I just don't do this in my sleep.Corey: That goes a big step toward, I guess, addressing a lot of these things, but it also feels like—and maybe this is just me paying closer attention—that the world of databases and data and analytics have really coalesced or emerged in a very different way over the past decade-ish. It used to be, at least from my perspective, that oh, that the actual, all the data we store, that's a storage admin problem. And that was about managing NetApps and SANs and the rest. And then you had the database side of it, which functionally from the storage side of the world was just a big file or series of files that are the backing store for the database. And okay, there's not a lot of cross-communication going on there.Then with the rise of object store, it started being a little bit different. And even the way that everyone is talking about getting meaning from data has really seem to be evolving at an incredibly intense clip lately. Is that an accurate perception, or have I just been asleep at the wheel for a while and finally woke up?Tony: No, I think you're onto something there. And the reason is that, one, data is touching us all around ourselves, and the fact is, I mean, I'm you can see it in the same way that all of a sudden that people know how to spell AI. They may not know what it means, but the thing is, there is an awareness the data that we work with, the data that is about us, it follows us, and with the cloud, this data has—well, I should say not just with the cloud but with smart mobile devices—we'll blame that—we are all each founts of data, and rich founts of data. And people in all walks of life, not just in the industry, are now becoming aware of it and there's a lot of concern about can we have any control, any ownership over the data that should be ours? So, I think that phenomenon has also happened in the enterprise, where essentially where we used to think that the data was the DBAs' issue, it's become the app developers' issue, it's become the business analysts' issue. Because the answers that we get, we're ultimately accountable for. It all comes from the data.Corey: It also feels like there's this idea of databases themselves becoming more contextually aware of the data contained within them. Originally, this used to be in the realm of, “Oh, we know what's been accessed recently and we can tier out where it lives for storage optimization purposes.” Okay, great, but what I'm seeing now almost seems to be a sense of, people like to talk about pouring ML into their database offerings. And I'm not able to tell whether that is something that adds actual value, or if it's marketing-ware.Tony: Okay. First off, let me kind of spill a couple of things. First of all, it's not a question of the database becoming aware. A database is not sentient.Corey: Niether are some engineers, but that's neither here nor there.Tony: That would be true, but then again, I don't want anyone with shotguns lining up at my door after this—Corey: [laugh].Tony: —after this interview is published. But [laugh] more of the point, though, is that I can see a couple roles for machine learning in databases. One is a database itself, the logs, are an incredible font of data, of operational data. And you can look at trends in terms of when this—when the pattern of these logs goes this way, that is likely to happen. So, the thing is that I could very easily say we're already seeing it: machine learning being used to help optimize the operation of databases, if you're Oracle, and say, “Hey, we can have a database that runs itself.”The other side of the coin is being able to run your own machine-learning models in database as opposed to having to go out into a separate cluster and move the data, and that's becoming more and more of a checkbox feature. However, that's going to be for essentially, probably, like, the low-hanging fruit, like the 80/20 rule. It'll be like the 20% of an ana—of relatively rudimentary, you know, let's say, predictive analyses that we can do inside the database. If you're going to be doing something more ambitious, such as a, you know, a large language model, you probably do not want to run that in database itself. So, there's a difference there.Corey: One would hope. I mean, one of the inappropriate uses of technology that I go for all the time is finding ways to—as directed or otherwise—in off-label uses find ways of tricking different services into running containers for me. It's kind of a problem; this is probably why everyone is very grateful I no longer write production code for anyone.But it does seem that there's been an awful lot of noise lately. I'm lazy. I take shortcuts very often, and one of those is that whenever AWS talks about something extensively through multiple marketing cycles, it becomes usually a pretty good indicator that they're on their back foot on that area. And for a long time, they were doing that about data and how it's very important to gather data, it unlocks the key to your business, but it always felt a little hollow-slash-hypocritical to me because you're going to some of the same events that I have that AWS throws on. You notice how you have to fill out the exact same form with a whole bunch of mandatory fields every single time, but there never seems to be anything that gets spat back out to you that demonstrates that any human or system has ever read—Tony: Right.Corey: Any of that? It's basically a, “Do what we say, not what we do,” style of story. And I always found that to be a little bit disingenuous.Tony: I don't want to just harp on AWS here. Of course, we can always talk about the two-pizza box rule and the fact that you have lots of small teams there, but I'd rather generalize this. And I think you really—what you're just describing is been my trip through the healthcare system. I had some sports-related injuries this summer, so I've been through a couple of surgeries to repair sports injuries. And it's amazing that every time you go to the doctor's office, you're filling the same HIPAA information over and over again, even with healthcare systems that use the same electronic health records software. So, it's more a function of that it's not just that the technologies are siloed, it's that the organizations are siloed. That's what you're saying.Corey: That is fair. And I think at some level—I don't know if this is a weird extension of Conway's Law or whatnot—but these things all have different backing stores as far as data goes. And there's a—the hard part, it seems, in a lot of companies once they hit a certain point of maturity is not just getting the data in—because they've already done that to some extent—but it's also then making it actionable and helping various data stores internal to the company reconcile with one another and start surfacing things that are useful. It increasingly feels like it's less of a technology problem and more of a people problem.Tony: It is. I mean, put it this way, I spent a lot of time last year, I burned a lot of brain cells working on data fabrics, which is an idea that's in the idea of the beholder. But the ideal of a data fabric is that it's not the tool that necessarily governs your data or secures your data or moves your data or transforms your data, but it's supposed to be the master orchestrator that brings all that stuff together. And maybe sometime 50 years in the future, we might see that.I think the problem here is both technical and organizational. [unintelligible 00:11:58] a promise, you have all these what we used call island silos. We still call them silos or islands of information. And actually, ironically, even though in the cloud we have technologies where we can integrate this, the cloud has actually exacerbated this issue because there's so many islands of information, you know, coming up, and there's so many different little parts of the organization that have their hands on that. That's also a large part of why there's such a big discussion about, for instance, data mesh last year: everybody is concerned about owning their own little piece of the pie, and there's a lot of question in terms of how do we get some consistency there? How do we all read from the same sheet of music? That's going to be an ongoing problem. You and I are going to get very old before that ever gets solved.Corey: Yeah, there are certain things that I am content to die knowing that they will not get solved. If they ever get solved, I will not live to see it, and there's a certain comfort in that, on some level.Tony: Yeah.Corey: But it feels like this stuff is also getting more and more complicated than it used to be, and terms aren't being used in quite the same way as they once were. Something that a number of companies have been saying for a while now has been that customers overwhelmingly are preferring open-source. Open source is important to them when it comes to their database selection. And I feel like that's a conflation of a couple of things. I've never yet found an ideological, purity-driven customer decision around that sort of thing.What they care about is, are there multiple vendors who can provide this thing so I'm not going to be using a commercially licensed database that can arbitrarily start playing games with seat licenses and wind up distorting my cost structure massively with very little notice. Does that align with your—Tony: Yeah.Corey: Understanding of what people are talking about when they say that, or am I missing something fundamental? Which is again, always possible?Tony: No, I think you're onto something there. Open-source is a whole other can of worms, and I've burned many, many brain cells over this one as well. And today, you're seeing a lot of pieces about the, you know, the—that are basically giving eulogies for open-source. It's—you know, like HashiCorp just finally changed its license and a bunch of others have in the database world. What open-source has meant is been—and I think for practitioners, for DBAs and developers—here's a platform that's been implemented by many different vendors, which means my skills are portable.And so, I think that's really been the key to why, for instance, like, you know, MySQL and especially PostgreSQL have really exploded, you know, in popularity. Especially Postgres, you know, of late. And it's like, you look at Postgres, it's a very unglamorous database. If you're talking about stodgy, it was born to be stodgy because they wanted to be an adult database from the start. They weren't the LAMP stack like MySQL.And the secret of success with Postgres was that it had a very permissive open-source license, which meant that as long as you don't hold University of California at Berkeley, liable, have at it, kids. And so, you see, like, a lot of different flavors of Postgres out there, which means that a lot of customers are attracted to that because if I get up to speed on this Postgres—on one Postgres database, my skills should be transferable, should be portable to another. So, I think that's a lot of what's happening there.Corey: Well, I do want to call that out in particular because when I was coming up in the naughts, the mid-2000s decade, the lingua franca on everything I used was MySQL, or as I insist on mispronouncing it, my-squeal. And lately, on same vein, Postgres-squeal seems to have taken over the entire universe, when it comes to the de facto database of choice. And I'm old and grumpy and learning new things as always challenging, so I don't understand a lot of the ways that thing gets managed from the context coming from where I did before, but what has driven the massive growth of mindshare among the Postgres-squeal set?Tony: Well, I think it's a matter of it's 30 years old and it's—number one, Postgres always positioned itself as an Oracle alternative. And the early years, you know, this is a new database, how are you going to be able to match, at that point, Oracle had about a 15-year headstart on it. And so, it was a gradual climb to respectability. And I have huge respect for Oracle, don't get me wrong on that, but you take a look at Postgres today and they have basically filled in a lot of the blanks.And so, it now is a very cre—in many cases, it's a credible alternative to Oracle. Can it do all the things Oracle can do? No. But for a lot of organizations, it's the 80/20 rule. And so, I think it's more just a matter of, like, Postgres coming of age. And the fact is, as a result of it coming of age, there's a huge marketplace out there and so much choice, and so much opportunity for skills portability. So, it's really one of those things where its time has come.Corey: I think that a lot of my own biases are simply a product of the era in which I learned how a lot of these things work on. I am terrible at Node, for example, but I would be hard-pressed not to suggest JavaScript as the default language that people should pick up if they're just entering tech today. It does front-end, it does back-end—Tony: Sure.Corey: —it even makes fries, apparently. There's a—that is the lingua franca of the modern internet in a bunch of different ways. That doesn't mean I'm any good at it, and it doesn't mean at this stage, I'm likely to improve massively at it, but it is the right move, even if it is inconvenient for me personally.Tony: Right. Right. Put it this way, we've seen—and as I said, I'm not an expert in programming languages, but we've seen a huge profusion of programming languages and frameworks. But the fact is that there's always been a draw towards critical mass. At the turn of the millennium, we thought is between Java and .NET. Little did we know that basically JavaScript—which at that point was just a web scripting language—[laugh] we didn't know that it could work on the server; we thought it was just a client. Who knew?Corey: That's like using something inappropriately as a database. I mean, good heavens.Tony: [laugh]. That would be true. I mean, when I could have, you know, easily just use a spreadsheet or something like that. But so, I mean, who knew? I mean, just like for instance, Java itself was originally conceived for a set-top box. You never know how this stuff is going to turn out. It's the same thing happen with Python. Python was also a web scripting language. Oh, by the way, it happens to be really powerful and flexible for data science. And whoa, you know, now Python is—in terms of data science languages—has become the new SaaS.Corey: It really took over in a bunch of different ways. Before that, Perl was great, and I go, “Why would I use—why write in Python when Perl is available?” It's like, “Okay, you know, how to write Perl, right?” “Yeah.” “Have you ever read anything a month later?” “Oh…” it's very much a write-only language. It is inscrutable after the fact. And Python at least makes that a lot more approachable, which is never a bad thing.Tony: Yeah.Corey: Speaking of what you touched on toward the beginning of this episode, the idea of databases not being sentient, which I equate to being self-aware, you just came out very recently with a report on generative AI and a trip that you wound up taking on this. Which I've read; I love it. In fact, we've both been independently using the phrase [unintelligible 00:19:09] to, “English is the new most common programming language once a lot of this stuff takes off.” But what have you seen? What have you witnessed as far as both the ground truth reality as well as the grandiose statements that companies are making as they trip over themselves trying to position as the forefront leader and all of this thing that didn't really exist five months ago?Tony: Well, what's funny is—and that's a perfect question because if on January 1st you asked “what's going to happen this year?” I don't think any of us would have thought about generative AI or large language models. And I will not identify the vendors, but I did some that had— was on some advanced briefing calls back around the January, February timeframe. They were talking about things like server lists, they were talking about in database machine learning and so on and so forth. They weren't saying anything about generative.And all of a sudden, April, it changed. And it's essentially just another case of the tail wagging the dog. Consumers were flocking to ChatGPT and enterprises had to take notice. And so, what I saw, in the spring was—and I was at a conference from SaaS, I'm [unintelligible 00:20:21] SAP, Oracle, IBM, Mongo, Snowflake, Databricks and others—that they all very quickly changed their tune to talk about generative AI. What we were seeing was for the most part, position statements, but we also saw, I think, the early emphasis was, as you say, it's basically English as the new default programming language or API, so basically, coding assistance, what I'll call conversational query.I don't want to call it natural language query because we had stuff like Tableau Ask Data, which was very robotic. So, we're seeing a lot of that. And we're also seeing a lot of attention towards foundation models because I mean, what organization is going to have the resources of a Google or an open AI to develop their own foundation model? Yes, some of the Wall Street houses might, but I think most of them are just going to say, “Look, let's just use this as a starting point.”I also saw a very big theme for your models with your data. And where I got a hint of that—it was a throwaway LinkedIn post. It was back in, I think like, February, Databricks had announced Dolly, which was kind of an experimental foundation model, just to use with your own data. And I just wrote three lines in a LinkedIn post, it was on Friday afternoon. By Monday, it had 65,000 hits.I've never seen anything—I mean, yes, I had a lot—I used to say ‘data mesh' last year, and it would—but didn't get anywhere near that. So, I mean, that really hit a nerve. And other things that I saw, was the, you know, the starting to look with vector storage and how that was going to be supported was it was going be a new type of database, and hey, let's have AWS come up with, like, an, you know, an [ADF 00:21:41] database here or is this going to be a feature? I think for the most part, it's going to be a feature. And of course, under all this, everybody's just falling in love, falling all over themselves to get in the good graces of Nvidia. In capsule, that's kind of like what I saw.Corey: That feels directionally accurate. And I think databases are a great area to point out one thing that's always been more a little disconcerting for me. The way that I've always viewed databases has been, unless I'm calling a RAND function or something like it and I don't change the underlying data structure, I should be able to run a query twice in a row and receive the same result deterministically both times.Tony: Mm-hm.Corey: Generative AI is effectively non-deterministic for all realistic measures of that term. Yes, I'm sure there's a deterministic reason things are under the hood. I am not smart enough or learned enough to get there. But it just feels like sometimes we're going to give you the answer you think you're going to get, sometimes we're going to give you a different answer. And sometimes, in generative AI space, we're going to be supremely confident and also completely wrong. That feels dangerous to me.Tony: [laugh]. Oh gosh, yes. I mean, I take a look at ChatGPT and to me, the responses are essentially, it's a high school senior coming out with an essay response without any footnotes. It's the exact opposite of an ACID database. The reason why we're very—in the database world, we're very strongly drawn towards ACID is because we want our data to be consistent and to get—if we ask the same query, we're going to get the same answer.And the problem is, is that with generative, you know, based on large language models, computers sounds sentient, but they're not. Large language models are basically just a series of probabilities, and so hopefully those probabilities will line up and you'll get something similar. That to me, kind of scares me quite a bit. And I think as we start to look at implementing this in an enterprise setting, we need to take a look at what kind of guardrails can we put on there. And the thing is, that what this led me to was that missing piece that I saw this spring with generative AI, at least in the data and analytics world, is nobody had a clue in terms of how to extend AI governance to this, how to make these models explainable. And I think that's still—that's a large problem. That's a huge nut that it's going to take the industry a while to crack.Corey: Yeah, but it's incredibly important that it does get cracked.Tony: Oh, gosh, yes.Corey: One last topic that I want to get into. I know you said you don't want to over-index on AWS, which, fair enough. It is where I spend the bulk of my professional time and energy—Tony: [laugh].Corey: Focusing on, but I think this one's fair because it is a microcosm of a broader industry question. And that is, I don't know what the DBA job of the future is going to look like, but increasingly, it feels like it's going to primarily be picking which purpose-built AWS database—or larger [story 00:24:56] purpose database is appropriate for a given workload. Even without my inappropriate misuse of things that are not databases as databases, they are legitimately 15 or 16 different AWS services that they position as database offerings. And it really feels like you're spiraling down a well of analysis paralysis, trying to pick between all these things. Do you think the future looks more like general-purpose databases, or very purpose-built and each one is this beautiful, bespoke unicorn?Tony: [laugh]. Well, this is basically a hit on a theme that I've been—you know, we've been all been thinking about for years. And the thing is, there are arguments to be made for multi-model databases, you know, versus a for-purpose database. That being said, okay, two things. One is that what I've been saying, in general, is that—and I wrote about this way, way back; I actually did a talk at the [unintelligible 00:25:50]; it was a throwaway talk, or [unintelligible 00:25:52] one of those conferences—I threw it together and it's basically looking at the emergence of all these specialized databases.But how I saw, also, there's going to be kind of an overlapping. Not that we're going to come back to Pangea per se, but that, for instance, like, a relational database will be able to support JSON. And Oracle, for instance, does has some fairly brilliant ideas up the sleeve, what they call a JSON duality, which sounds kind of scary, which basically says, “We can store data relationally, but superimpose GraphQL on top of all of this and this is going to look really JSON-y.” So, I think on one hand, you are going to be seeing databases that do overlap. Would I use Oracle for a MongoDB use case? No, but would I use Oracle for a case where I might have some document data? I could certainly see that.The other point, though, and this is really one I want to hammer on here—it's kind of a major concern I've had—is I think the cloud vendors, for all their talk that we give you operational simplicity and agility are making things very complex with its expanding cornucopia of services. And what they need to do—I'm not saying, you know, let's close down the patent office—what I think we do is we need to provide some guided experiences that says, “Tell us the use case. We will now blend these particular services together and this is the package that we would suggest.” I think cloud vendors really need to go back to the drawing board from that standpoint and look at, how do we bring this all together? How would he really simplify the life of the customer?Corey: That is, honestly, I think the biggest challenge that the cloud providers have across the board. There are hundreds of services available at this point from every hyperscaler out there. And some of them are brand new and effectively feel like they're there for three or four different customers and that's about it and others are universal services that most people are probably going to use. And most things fall in between those two extremes, but it becomes such an analysis paralysis moment of trying to figure out what do I do here? What is the golden path?And what that means is that when you start talking to other people and asking their opinion and getting their guidance on how to do something when you get stuck, it's, “Oh, you're using that service? Don't do it. Use this other thing instead.” And if you listen to that, you get midway through every problem for them to start over again because, “Oh, I'm going to pick a different selection of underlying components.” It becomes confusing and complicated, and I think it does customers largely a disservice. What I think we really need, on some level, is a simplified golden path with easy on-ramps and easy off-ramps where, in the absence of a compelling reason, this is what you should be using.Tony: Believe it or not, I think this would be a golden case for machine learning.Corey: [laugh].Tony: No, but submit to us the characteristics of your workload, and here's a recipe that we would propose. Obviously, we can't trust AI to make our decisions for us, but it can provide some guardrails.Corey: “Yeah. Use a graph database. Trust me, it'll be fine.” That's your general purpose—Tony: [laugh].Corey: —approach. Yeah, that'll end well.Tony: [laugh]. I would hope that the AI would basically be trained on a better set of training data to not come out with that conclusion.Corey: One could sure hope.Tony: Yeah, exactly.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to catch up with me around what you're doing. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to find you?Tony: My website is dbinsight.io. And on my homepage, I list my latest research. So, you just have to go to the homepage where you can basically click on the links to the latest and greatest. And I will, as I said, after Labor Day, I'll be publishing my take on my generative AI journey from the spring.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to this in the [show notes 00:29:39]. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.Tony: Hey, it's been a pleasure, Corey. Good seeing you again.Corey: Tony Baer, principal at dbInsight. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry, insulting comment that we will eventually stitch together with all those different platforms to create—that's right—a large-scale distributed database.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

** We made an oopsie with the sound on this one. Hopefully it's not too bad. -Tony** Hey ho, let's go. We're back again with a brand new batch of Horror Business, starting off with Real World Horror. We head to the Philippines to investigate the multiple reports of supernatural beings, including the elusive manananggal. In the world of fiction, we discuss a new legacy sequel of I Know What You Did Last Summer, as well as a new animated Resident Evil movie. We then take a look at a new survival horror video game inspired by the Saw movies. We then head to New Jersey for Crystal Lake Tours, featuring a ton of Friday the 13th alumni to camp out with fans. Finally, we break down the remake of the film Night Shift. For our film reviews, we first examine the low budget cult film Night of the Bastard, which is not about PAC or ODB but instead is about a group of Satanists looking to bring on the apocalypse. Before they are successful, we better take a trip to Hundred Acre Wood to meet a silly old bear named Winnie-the-Pooh in the fairytale-turned-slasher Blood and Honey. But Pooh and Piglet too have grown up to become ruthless killers. Oh, bother. So grab some hunny and curl up with a brand new episode of The Grave Plot Podcast!

In this month's Q&A chat, I spoke with Phil Colgan, the Senior Minister at St George North Anglican Church in Sydney, and one of Sydney's most gifted preachers. Here's an edited transcript of our conversation. I kicked things off by asking Phil what he was preaching on at the moment.Phil: As we're coming out of lockdown we thought we'd do something that's just really encouraging for people and it's proven that way. We've been preaching on the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5. And I've found it an incredible joy, because I've been moved to think how I've seen the fruit of the Spirit growing in people over the 18 years I've been at St George North—seeing the way people have grown in love, have grown in gentleness, have grown in showing kindness to one another.It's been an incredible encouragement to reflect on the work of God's Spirit through the teaching of his word over the time of our ministry here. It's a challenge as well because Galatians 5 also has that verse 25 about walking in step with the Spirit or following the Spirit.Tony: Is there a fruit of the Spirit that you felt challenged about as you were doing your prep? I always find when I'm prepping to teach or preach something, God sometimes slips a dagger into my own heart and convicts me from the passage I'm reading. Have you found that?Phil: Well, it's funny. It has been the same couple of fruit of the Spirit that have challenged me every time I've read Galatians 5 since I've been a Christian, which is patience and gentleness. They are the two. And for some reason, whenever I think of patience, I can immediately have something I need to repent of within the last 24 hours.Tony: Oh Lord, give me patience and do it quickly! Phil, you are a solid and well known part of the fellowship of Sydney Anglican evangelicals here. In fact, I'd probably regard you as my friend who is probably the best connected amongst Sydney Anglicans. We're all part of this fellowship but you just seem to be one of those people who knows people. You're part of the central diocesan structures a bit, you get involved in the committee work, but you're also out and about and you know lots of ministers and seem to have your finger on the pulse.And so I thought it would be a helpful question to ask for the sake not only of people who are listening here in Sydney and are interested, but many of our friends all around the world who know about Sydney and its Anglican evangelicalism—if you were going to do a little mini SWOT analysis of Sydney Anglicanism at the moment, what would you are our strengths and weaknesses and opportunities and threats?Phil: Well, when you look for those opportunities and threats and that sort of thing, that's a helpful thing to do—though with something as wide and complex as a diocese I sometimes wonder if it is that helpful. Sometimes I think every church should be thinking about that in their local area, which is actually a distinctive of Sydney Anglicanism, isn't it (our congregational nature)?But I think our opportunities, our threats—they tend to be the same at every point; they just vary by degrees. And for me at the moment, the opportunity in Sydney for ministry is the opportunity of evangelism. We have the most wonderful news in the world and millions of people that need saving. We have this incredible situation of an Anglican diocese with a couple of hundred churches that faithfully preach Jesus, thousands of lay people ready to serve.I think that is a peculiar thing about Sydney in the Anglican world and that is our opportunity. But although some say, "Oh, the fields are dry and the fields are hard”, I actually think we are at a point where people are more open to the gospel than at any point in my Christian lifetime. Some are more antagonistic, but I think they're a small number who are represented in the media and so forth. In my part of Sydney, which is incredibly multicultural, I think people are just open to talking about Christian things. We're seeing loads of people connecting with us at the moment through our evangelistic efforts. And I think it's a great time.Most Westerners now don't have the cultural baggage of cultural Anglicanism or cultural Roman Catholicism. They're not immune to the gospel. They haven't been vaccinated. And for me, that's a wonderful situation. I think we're entering a great time. So that's the opportunity and that's the challenge in Sydney I think—it's not to lose sight of the main game. And to take that opportunity in the diocese of Sydney, the challenge is to mobilize our resources I think—to mobilize our lay people, be focused on training and equipping lay people, and challenge our lay people and our gospel workers to have the right view of this city: that it's a harvest field, and we are all missionaries and evangelists in the diocese in Sydney.The other issue is property. Can we better use our property to reach the city? Can we have churches to plant out in these massive growth areas of Sydney?But in the end, the challenge is: don't get distracted. Let's keep the main game, the main game, and keep putting that in front of people. That to me is the opportunity.Tony: What do you think we get distracted by?Phil: I think one distraction is thinking that everything is really hard and that evangelism's hard—because that often means you switch from bold gospel proclamation to defensive posturing, which I think is a danger for conservative evangelicals. We get worried about protecting our rights and protecting ourselves and that sort of thing. Or we switch to thinking that we have to apologise for the gospel and so forth, rather than just getting on with that task of proclaiming Jesus.Tony: Sydney's a big place. It's about 5 million people or thereabouts. Andf we have a generous kind of definition, there might be... let's say there are 150,000 born again, evangelical Bible-believing Christians in Sydney. If that's the case, by my calculations, we're kind of at the 2-3% mark, and then there's 97% of this vast, great city. I think of Nineveh, that great city in which there are 5 million people who don't know their right hand from their left (as it says in Jonah). Not to mention the many cattle of course in Nineveh, but not so many cattle in Sydney.Phil: A lot of cavoodles after lockdown.Tony: Yes, if it was being written today, Jonah would conclude with “And many cavoodles”! But it is a great challenge to think about just what a lost city Sydney is, and how much opportunity there is for the gospel. In terms of the threats to us or the weakness for us as Anglicans, do you have any reflections there?Phil: If I was to put down one threat, I would say that it's to respond to that great need by conceding too much to our world in a desire to be relevant. I think that's always the threat. And at the moment I think that is a threat for us, and I feel that temptation every time I preach. God is sovereign, but in my weakness, I do fear for our next generation. I wonder—have we been and are we preparing them well enough to stand up and believe and love biblical truth in a world that's now calling it evil rather than irrelevant, whether it's the truth that Christ alone is the way of salvation and there is no other way; or whether it's the truth on human sexuality, or the truth on gender and all these other issues.I see that as a threat. I fear sometimes that we haven't done a good enough job with that generation. And I think our real challenge is to just teach those truths boldly to help our young people (and our older people for that matter) to be proud of Jesus and his word. That's the word I use: to be proud of the gospel; to actually stand up and be proud of it rather than apologise for it. The gospel is the answer, even if our world mocks it.Tony: It is in many ways a challenge of unbelief. It's losing your confidence and boldness in the truth of the gospel and the truth of Christ and thinking that in some way we have to soften it, accommodate it, refashion it. And look, I understand that instinct very well. And it's why in a sense I'm sympathetic—or empathetic perhaps is the better word—to liberalism, because liberalism is that impulse. It's that sense that we're not relevant; that the world is moving on and they don't believe what we believe anymore. And so we need to jettison some of the harder edge stuff; we need to conjure a message that's more respectable, more acceptable, more comfortable in a way, one that we don't feel uncomfortable to speak. Or one that when we do speak it, we don't feel like we're standing out and saying something radical or revolutionary. That's the impulse. And I think we all feel that impulse in our hearts. And while we might feel horrified about the liberal theology that jettisons the resurrection and so on, and think that we would never go that far, we still feel the impulse that you're talking about—to accommodate and compromise in order to receive a better hearing; to be “all things to all men”.Phil: Yes, but being all things to all men is about how you live. It's about your actions. It's not about what you preach.Tony: Exactly. I think it was at the Nexus Conference a few years ago, David Williams had this wonderful one-liner. He pointed out that in 1 Corinthians 1-2, Paul was utterly and absolutely inflexible about his message. In fact, Paul says, I've got all these other people who want to hear this, the Jews want to hear that, the Greeks want to hear this. I don't tell them anything they want to hear—I tell them this instead: Christ crucified. And they think it's either weak or foolish, but that doesn't bother me, because God uses this supposedly weak and foolish method. That's his power and his wisdom. So I never change the message.So Paul is utterly inflexible on his message, but in his person, in his behaviour, in the packaging of who he is, he's flexible as anything, because those things don't matter very much. And so David Williams said: We contextualize the messenger; we don't contextualize the message.Phil: I think that's a wonderful way of putting it. And I think it actually captures the logical flow of 1 Corinthians.Tony: I mentioned Nexus just now. You've taken over from me at Nexus—you've deposed me in a boardroom coup, and have shuffled me aside and you are now in charge of Nexus.Phil: I am, I am. And actually we are doing a Nexus Refresh, coming out of lockdown, where Kanishka, the new Archbishop of Sydney, and I are speaking. It's in early December and praise God, we can come together as people in ministry in Sydney and be refreshed by God's word. And what I'm going to try and speak on is actually that it's as we think of the task before us—that's the most refreshing thing to be reminded of what a great gospel we have to preach and what a privilege it is to do it. That refreshes me far more than any day off or any holiday..Tony: Indeed. And that's really what Nexus is, for those of you who haven't heard of Nexus. It's basically a little fellowship of Sydney evangelicals, mostly Anglicans, but evangelicals in Sydney who are in gospel ministry—refreshing and pushing each other forward for this great task. So it's great that you are taking it on and pushing that forward. And I'll certainly look forward to seeing you there in December. When is it in December?Phil: Friday, December 3.Tony: If you just look up nexusconference.com.au you should be able to find the details there. Phil, every now and then, when I put out a Payneful Truth, you very kindly zip me a little email. And after I did that little series on apologetics a few weeks ago, you wrote in with some enthusiasm. We've kind of being dancing around that subject in what we've just talked about, but I know it's a subject that you are exercised on. What's important about apologetics or what's wrong with apologetics in your view?Phil: Well, yes. I loved what you said. And for those who haven't read it, I encourage you to read the two Payneful Truths that Tony put out on it (see here for part 1 and part 2), because you crystallized something for me I've been blundering around on for some time. I'm all for apologetics in some senses, but some modern apologetics makes me feel really uncomfortable. And I've been trying to work out why that is. And what you crystallized for me is that whatever apologetics is, and there are things that it is, it shouldn't be trying to make the gospel seem rational and reasonable to a person with a worldly worldview. That's the point I got out of it.You've mentioned 1 Corinthians 1-2 already. The wisdom of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. That shows you that as you preach the gospel, if a person hasn't had their world view transformed by the word through the Spirit, they are going to think it's foolishness. So it should never be our intention to make a person who doesn't come to trust in Jesus think we are rational.One of your categories of apologetics was what you call ‘positive apologetics'. And I found that a really helpful category. You said that there is some legitimate ‘positive apologetics', as we how good the gospel is, and show how the gospel makes sense of the world.But the thing is that the gospel will never be seen as good for you if you think this world is all there is, right? You can't make a person think the gospel is good for you if this world is the end and there is no God. It's only when you accept there is a God who is righteous, who created the world. It's only when you accept that there is a heaven and a hell that the gospel is good—otherwise it's foolishness. So any apologetics that's trying to say the gospel is good for you even if you don't share our view, I think has missed the point.All of this sent me back yet again to 1 Peter 2, which for me is the key passage of the scriptures on this question. And in particular 1 Peter 2:12. (I've got my Bible open on that page, you'll be pleased to know.) It says: Conduct yourselves honourably among the Gentiles so that in a case where they speak against you as those who do what is evil, they will by observing your good works glorify God on the day of visitation.And as you look at that, and then the flow of thought that goes through to being ready “to give a reason for your hope” in chapter 3, the argument is that the greatest apologetic is living a godly life. As you live out a godly life, you also set out the gospel plainly, as you give a reason for your hope. But what 1 Peter shows you is that they won't understand you. They will call you evil. And you'll reason with people (what you called, I think ‘responsive apologetics' or something like that). You'll reason with people, and you'll then try to show the rationality of the gospel, the historical evidence, and so on. And you'll always do that with gentleness and with respect—1 Peter makes that very clear.But someone who then doesn't repent and believe is unlikely to think you're rational and is unlikely to think you're reasonable. And that's where I want us to say that being Christian in our world should be a conundrum to people. On the one hand they go, "He's irrational. His logic doesn't seem to work. He believes in a guy who rose from the dead 2000 years ago and says he's the answer to everything. He's a bit crazy.” But they also say, “And yet he's so gracious. And he is so gentle and he is so loving. And he is so patient. I can't help wanting to listen to him.”But you see, when we try to remove the conundrum by trying to make it rational and reasonable in the world's terms, it's actually as bad as removing the conundrum by not being gentle, by not being gracious!Tony: That kind of dual way in which the world thinks about the behaviour of Christians and what they say, in the end it is only resolved on the “day of visitation”, isn't it?Phil: Although we pray they resolve the conundrum prior to the day of visitation because we give them a reason for our hope and they come to know Christ.Tony: Yes! In the whole discussion about apologetics and the gospel—which I've been thinking about a lot over the past 12 months—it has really come home to me how we've often we get it back to front. So often these days we spend ages on the ‘softening up period', trying to connect with people, gain traction for ideas, present some metaphors that might connect with them, find some common ground, say ways in which the gospel is good—all kinds of things to try to ease them up towards the terrible moment when we give them the bad news that this is gospel about Jesus dying for your sins and rising from the dead.It strikes me, we've got that the wrong way around. We'd be much better if we led with Jesus and the resurrection of Jesus (in light of our good behaviour and our reputation for being the kind of people who live differently). We then tease through their questions and answer their questions and respond and interact and explain, and do the responsive dialogue style of interaction—having told them what the gospel is that makes all the difference, rather than keeping that in reserve for some future point where we might eventually get to telling them.Phil: I think what you're saying is absolutely right in what I'd call the personal sphere. I don't have the answers for the public sphere where you only get a sound bite. And sometimes the sound bite you want to give is just to commend the gospel. That's why I'm very slow to judge anyone who gets lauded or pilloried by the media or by the world in that sense.Tony: It's a very artificial environment, isn't it?Phil: Yes, but I think it really helps if we have that attitude of what is first and foremost important.I had another thought about all this, and it's just a thought bubble for me at the moment. As you got to your final category of prosecution or ‘kategoria' as you called it—I don't think we do enough of that in our preaching. I fear that if we do too much of the other types of apologetics in our preaching—if we do too much apologizing—then you actually create a church that's in constant need of being argued into its faith. I think our preaching should go more on the offensive, be more prosecutorial.And that goes back to what I said before—we should be prouder of the gospel. And so I think more of our preaching should say, "Brothers and sisters, this is what you believe—isn't it wonderful? Look at how foolish our world is. Look at how much better our world view is than our world's.” And I wonder if we did more of that, then we'd prepare our people better to be not apologizing for the gospel, but ready to express the power of the gospel—to sort of crack through to the world. Anyway, that's just a thought bubble I've got. I've got to be careful though, it's not just about rationalizing my personality.Tony: Your belligerent personality, Phil? I think we always have to be careful of rationalizing our proclivities towards particular kinds of approach.Now, part of the format of this thing is that you also get to ask me questions. So have you got anything that you are wanting to throw at me at the moment?Phil: Well, yes. As I thought about that, I thought, “Tony's my book guy; he's one of the few people I know who is a genuinely published author”. So I thought not including your own books (or perhaps you can!) is there a book you would want everyone to read? What would it be for pastors and then for people in our churches—what would be the one book you'd say, you must read this?Tony: Oh, gee, that's a hard one. The one that's in my mind at the moment that I think everyone should read and come to terms with is David Seccombe's new book, The Gospel of the Kingdom: Jesus' Revolutionary Message—which as it happens is right in the ballpark of all the things we've just been talking about. It's David's attempt to try to summarize what the gospel is, and to connect together the gospel of the kingdom that is so prominent in the Gospels and the gospel of justification and Paul and all that kind of thing, the gospel of the cross and forgiveness. And the way he weaves them together using his research in Isaiah and in the Old Testament and in biblical theology—is just brilliant.Like all good books it's got its angles and its things that you scratch your chin about every now and then—but on the whole, it's excellent. He argues that the resurrection is the culmination of the gospel message—not just a denouement, or a kind of a footnote or a sort of wrapping up of loose ends. The resurrection is where it all comes together. In line with the kind of conversation we've been having, he argues that the resurrection is our message, the resurrection of the crucified saviour, who is now the Lord and rules all, and who calls on everyone everywhere to come to him for forgiveness of sins and to enter his kingdom and live with him as their Lord.That's our proclamation. It's the proclamation of the risen Christ who is saviour. And the way he draws and ties all that together and challenges the way we often think about the gospel just really brilliantly done. It pulls together a lot of the thoughts that we've all been having over a number of years in a really helpful way. So I'd recommend The Gospel of the Kingdom by David Seccombe. It will shake up and clarify how you think about the gospel in the most helpful way. I would say for pastors, definitely that's the book to grab and read at the moment.And for thoughtful lay readers? David's book is not written in an overly technical or obscure way, so also go and grab it.But if there was one book though that I was going to suggest that every Christian should read for their Christian growth—a book about the essence of the Christian life and how I can grow in it—I think I'd recommend Paul Grimmond's, Right Side Up. It's just a brilliant book about what the Christian life is and how it proceeds, and probably the most under-rated book I ever published in the time I was at Matthias Media. I think it's a book every Christian should read at some point—Right Side Up by Paul Grimmond.Phil: I've always been amazed it didn't get more airplay. It has always seemed a perfect book to hand to a new Christian as part of a follow-up course or to do with young Christians.One last question for you, Tony—what topic would you like to see a book written on at the moment? Is there something you wish either that you could have the time to write a book on, or that you wish someone else would write a book on?Tony: Okay. I'll throw out a few, because I've got a long and large ideas file, and some of these are things that I'm going to do, God willing, in the future. But if someone wants to get to them first and do it, then please do. I'll mention three. Is that okay?Phil: Well, it's your podcast.Tony: Hey, so it is! Why I'm I asking you permission?I have thought for a long time that it's funny that we've never really written an outstanding or widely used book that explains the gospel using Two ways to live. We've got tracts various things—courses and videos—but not a book. The closest we came was when Dominic Steele did his Introducing God course, and he turned the content into a little book that you could give away. But it didn't take off massively and didn't become a go-to evangelistic book. That's a book I'd love to write sometime, or if someone wants to beat me to it—go for it.The second book I'd really love to see written is one that I am going to target fairly soon. And that is all the research I did about one another ministry and the word ministry of every Christian. You mentioned before how important you think it is to train and equip every Christian? I think there is a significant book to be written about why that's important and what role every Christian has in not only the gospel, but in the word of mutual encouragement and teaching and helping one another within the Christian community. So that's a book I think desperately needs to be written. And that's is one that I'm hoping I'll be starting very soon based on all the research I did.And the third book, I'd love to see some smart person write is I've thought about trying but I'm not sure I'll ever get to it. I'm really fascinated by the connection between Neoplatonism, Augustine, C.S. Lewis and John Piper. I have this theory that running through the Reformed tradition, and especially through Jonathan Edwards and then into our contemporary Christian milieu, is a stream of thinking that owes a bit more to Platonism and Neoplatonism than it does to the Bible—especially to do with how desire drives the Christian life and how the Christian life is is about us rising up to the joy of God, driven by our desire for joy (or happiness), and that this shapes what the Christian life and Christian theology is about.That seems to have the smell of Neoplatonism about it. And I'd love to have time to tease out that connection. Because I think that while there's a truth there—as indeed there is truth in Platonism, and a truth in man things—when you make it your system, it subtly shifts the way you think about things. It changes the emphasis of your theology and then changes how you read the Bible. You see it lot in C.S. Lewis who was quite explicitly influenced by the Cambridge Platonists. And I think you also see it coming out in contemporary evangelicalism in different ways. And that's a book I'd love some clever person somewhere to write.Phil: Hopefully that person might be listening …Tony: You just never know.Phil: Well, I would read all three of those books, but I do think your Two ways to live idea is so true. There hasn't really been a standard give away book since the Chappo books.Tony: Since A Fresh Start. In fact, I had an idea—and maybe this conversation with you will spur me into action to actually do it. I was thinking of taking a little run of Payneful Truths between now and the end of the year, or maybe over summer, and using them to write six chapters of this Two ways to live evangelistic book, and send it round to everybody and to see what they think. Make it a community effort, and see if we can pull together a short evangelistic book that utilizes the strengths of Two ways to live, but in a way that works for now and is in today's language. Maybe we should make it a communal project.Phil: I think it's a great idea.Tony: All right. I'll see what I can do!Phil, thanks a lot for talking today. It's been great to catch up with you. Thanks for encouraging us and stimulating us as you always do. And all the best for your ongoing preaching at St. George North and your involvement in all the other things you do.Phil: Thanks, Tony.PSHope you enjoyed that wide-ranging conversation as much as I did. To get every edition of The Payneful Truth every week, consider becoming a subscriber …Some links you might like to chase up:* Information about the Nexus Conference in Sydney on Dec 3* David Seccombe's book, The Gospel of the Kingdom* Paul Grimmond's book, Right Side Up This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.twoways.news/subscribe

I had an amazing discussion with Tony Whatley about working twice as hard as the next person, never giving up, building a business from scratch, selling his business for millions, working for a corporation and now his new life of helping entrepreneurs. Check out his book "Sidehustle Millionaire": https://amzn.to/3fXEwmd Also check out his Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/365driven and his website at https://365driven.com/. This was a fascinating chat with someone who has really done it...created a business and sold it for millions. So many people act as if they've done it but rarely do you find someone who has and is willing to share their knowledge to help lift others up. Enjoy and thanks so much for listening!! Joe Tony Whatley CEO - 365Driven.com Author of: Sidehustle Millionaire Website: https://365driven.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/365driven/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/365driven 365Driven Faceook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/365driven/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonywhatley/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrETiHfxlI0Igei04hd1KVQ Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: All right, my guest is Tony Whatley. Tony, welcome to the podcast.   Tony: Joe, good to connect and thank you for having me on the show, brother.   Joe: Yeah, man, so you and I connected on Clubhouse and there is a tremendous amount of noise on the Clubhouse, as with any platform, once it takes off and you stuck out to me because you're not one of those people that are leaning against a rented Lamborghini or sitting in a hollow like a fuselage. So and when I listen to you talk in certain rooms on clubhouse, just something attracted me to wanting to connect more with you and learn about your story. So what I like to do with all my guests, as I like to go back, I think it's important for people that become successful like you, that the people that are listening to this and who will eventually watch the YouTube video of this a few days after I release this on the platform that they understand where you came from, because I think that's always really important to know that you just weren't handed all of these things. And this just with any anybody becoming an entrepreneur, it's not an easy journey. So can you kind of bring us forward to today, but tell us where you started? I know that you got into oil and you had a regular career, quote, regular giving air quotes for the podcast listeners. So if you could take us from the beginning, it would be awesome.   Tony: Hey, thank you for the opportunity. So my life grew up lower middle class to hard, hardworking parents, blue collar careers. My mom was a cafeteria worker in the public schools for over 30 years, serving kids meals. She had a really strong heart. She loved everybody, didn't and didn't dislike anybody. Even some of the people I disliked, she was like she could find the love in everybody. Right. And my dad, Vietnam veteran U.S. Marines, and after the military, he worked in chemical refineries here in the UAE, an area the rest of his career. They're both retired now, doing well. And I just learned the value of hard work and having to learn to be grateful for what I had in the houses that I grew up in. Three houses specifically in Friendswood, Texas, is really the lowest income neighborhood in the entire city, which had affluence and also had lower middle class, lot more of the affluence. But, you know, fewer of us. And we would basically buy the crappiest house and the smallest house in the neighborhood and live in it while we flipped it for a few years, while we were restoring it, making it nicer. And eventually those small houses would become one of the nicer houses on the street. And then they would go by a little bit nicer, bigger house, because me and my sister, which we're growing just like the house sizes. And so I just thought that was a normal life. I saw that there was a affluence nearby. I could get on my bicycle and my skateboard and run around and look at these big houses that had a lot of windows on the front.   Tony: I remember being a kid and I only had one window on the front of my first house. I grew up and it was the one that was a bay window on the living room. And I would watch my sister, who was a year and a half older, get on the bus every day, and I would wave to her just like my mom would be standing in the window. And that was always my view of the house, the first house I grew up in. And I just thought that every house just had one view. So I just thought that was normal. And I remember when I became old enough to go right around and leave the neighborhood and go see what was outside, I saw all these big houses with multiple windows. And I remember thinking to myself, I wonder what the view at that window looks like. I wonder what the view at that window looks like. And I could just envision myself running through this house and like looking through the windows and seeing if was a different view. And each one, as funny as thing is, as my wife is a realtor and sometimes I'll go do some showings with her and I'll we'll be at these large houses and I'll still look out every window. Even to this day. I'll still look out every window just to see what the view is.   Joe: That's   Tony: And   Joe: Right.   Tony: So I started to catch myself doing this. Like, why am I so fascinated by what's outside? Each one is like, oh, now I remember. Now I remember.   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: So yeah, a little bit about me   Joe: Yeah,   Tony: And.   Joe: Yeah, so how did you get into so what did you did you go to college for some particular subject or degree or.   Tony: I went to college for the pursuit of the six figure paycheck. That   Joe: Let's   Tony: Was that was the only reason   Joe: Get.   Tony: Because because I turned well, my first job was McDonald's at age 15. I worked there through high school. Then I was a busser at Olive Garden. And then I became a waiter there because I was good busser. And then I went to work at a steakhouse where I was another waiter. And then I became a manager of this brewery steakhouse and Clear Lake, Texas, and. I turned 18 and it really wasn't enough money to live on just just working at the restaurant, so I actually started working in construction just like my dad and and working in Texas and fire retardant clothing with a hard hat and 95 degree temperatures. It only took me a few summers of realizing that that's not where I wanted to be. I saw these these men with collared shirts walking into air conditioned rooms on the same facility. I was like, well, what do they do? All their engineers like? Well, man, I need to figure out how to work in the air conditioning. Yes. So I just said, hey, if you've got to go get a six figure career, that's what we tell you. You could be a doctor, a lawyer or an engineer. Well, I happen to love cars. So I said, well, maybe there's something in engineering that I can learn about cars and I can maybe go get that six figure paychecks. I became a mechanical engineer and I worked full time during that whole ordeal. I paid for school myself and actually the first person and both sides of my family to go to a university. My dad was the first one in his family to to move to a house that didn't have wheels attached to it. And so it was the first one to go to university. So I really applaud him for not going back to his hometown after he got out of the military and just decided, like, I don't want to grow up there. I don't want my kids   Joe: At.   Tony: To grow up there. We're moving somewhere else. So he went where the work was and he facilitated that change. And I felt like it was my obligation to do, you know, a little bit better for him, for the work that they put in. Isn't that what we all should be striving to is trying to do a little bit more than our parents   Joe: Yeah,   Tony: Who struggled   Joe: Absolutely.   Tony: To put us in that situation? And so, you know, me getting that degree took me seven years. I was I was going to school at night time, usually between six and 10 p.m. and sleep deprived and broke and stressed out and actually had more gray hair in college than I do now. Is is strange and really a sleep and stress. You know, it really does has a lot of physiological, you know, turmoil on us. And my relationship struggled back things I just didn't have any time to dedicate to those kind of things. But, you know, I never changed majors. I never quit. I did drop some classes along the way because I struggled and my grades were suffering at the point said I didn't quit. And that was a testament to me is like, I'm going to see this through because I actually had friends that joined mechanical engineering program. Honestly, even when they tell you that when you start freshman year of school, they said only 20 percent of you are going to graduate. And then they said, OK, well, how many of you have a girlfriend or boyfriend or you're married and raise your hand? Remember that orientation freshman year? And I said, OK, well, only 10 percent of you will graduate. And they said, how many of you are working full time job to do this? And I raise my hand again, I said, well, only 10 percent of you will graduate. So I was like out of a 20 percent pool, 10 percent of that and 10 percent had really bad odds. But you   Joe: At.   Tony: Know what? I'm pretty defiant. And I said, you know, I'm going to prove them wrong. I'm going to be the one that defeats the odds. And upon graduating, it was only 12 people in my class that had graduated that that semester.   Joe: Wow, that's   Tony: And   Joe: Crazy.   Tony: I was the only one that was working full time. So I really did defeat the odds. And I thought that I wanted to go into automotive career. But automotive in Detroit just didn't pay nearly as much as oil and gas in my hometown of Houston. So I decided to just take the paychecks in Houston. And that's why I started businesses in the automotive performance arena, because I still wanted to satisfy that itch.   Joe: Right. So you ended up taking a full time job in the oil and gas world. What was that job?   Tony: Earliest was a project engineer role working for a manufacturing facility, we built subsea equipment and pay pay back then was probably 45000 base salary, you know, entry level at that time. So for context, this was around 1997, 1998, and I was getting home at four thirty in the afternoon, like most people with a 40 hour job. We started really early in the morning, but I get home at four thirty and I felt like. After going through seven years of hustle and grind and working three jobs, I was still a waiter working construction as a mechanic and said this feels like a part time job. So here I am with my big boy salary and my big boy degree feeling like, OK, I guess I'm on my journey. I'm on my early journey to go chase the American dream. And I've done it. And and I was just bored. I was   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: Bored and I would be really honest with myself. I'd look at my small apartment and, you know, I bought myself a nicer car, bought a Pontiac Trans Am when I graduated. So that that was like my reward to myself.   Joe: Uh.   Tony: And I felt like this is this isn't enough. This is not enough. And I got a lot of energy. I got a lot of time. So I actually went back and waited tables at the restaurant that I was a manager of because I had promoted one of my friends to be the manager when I left. And I called him up and say, hey, man, do you think I could just come pick up shifts and bartending and waiting? He's like, hell, yeah, dude, you're awesome. Like, come back any time. I don't even need to put you on the schedule to come pick up one. And so for me that meant seven nights a week. I just I put the apron on and people lot of the people that were still working there knew who I was. And I graduated and that's why I left. And to go, why are you back? And it's like because I'm not where I want to be. Like, I can sit home and sit on the couch and watch TV or I can come back and make an extra 150 bucks a night.   Tony: So I chose to go suck up my pride and go do that. You know, his thing is I've never I've never felt shame for doing what was necessary to get what I needed to do. And I think a lot of times people put ego or self-importance above what they need to do. And, you know, I was fine if I was cleaning the bathrooms at McDonalds, I did it the best I could find, mopping floors. That is the best I could. And even as a kid, I go back and some of my long term friends like you just never complained. You just did what was required. Like football coaches would tell you something. You just do it. I've never been the complainer because I watched my parents work so hard and we literally were living inside of a flip house the entire time, and I just know that blood, sweat and tears is not just some a cliche phrase. And I learned from my dad like, hey, you know, he's a combat vet. Like, you should see what I had to do when I was 18, son,   Joe: Right.   Tony: You know, like like suck it up,   Joe: Yep.   Tony: Go do the work. Don't complain. You have it better than a lot of people in this world. And that's the mentality I adopted as a kid. And I grew into a young adult and I still carry that with me today.   Joe: So you're at this job, you're doing part time at the restaurant. And when do you decide and is the first side hustle that you start? Is it is it less one tech? Is that what it was?   Tony: Now, actually, my first side hustle. It's going to get really nerdy, but I learned how to build electronic circuits with resistors, a little bread boards and soldering, and I was kind of geeking out on this and I learned how to design a device that you could plug into an engine harness on a on a Camaro or a Corvette or a TransAm that would fool the NOx sensors and give you about 10 horsepower. So it basically would give it a little bit more ignition time. And it was a plug and play thing. And I knew how to design it and I built it. And so I would go to RadioShack back when those were everywhere,   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: Buy all the resistors and I would buy these little circuit boards and little boxes and the wiring and I would buy the GM harnesses from the parts counter at the local Chevy dealership. And I get home and I would bust out my little kit and I would solder things and it would take me about take me about an hour to build each one of these units. And I had about thirty dollars in parts. I can sell over 75 bucks. And so it didn't scale very well, obviously, because there was only a limited market, you know, I mean, hundreds of people that maybe wanted to buy that. And I can only build two or three a night without running at a time. And so that was my first online business. I actually built a little one page landing page is   Joe: Mm   Tony: What we   Joe: Hmm.   Tony: Call it now. But it was actually that's all my capability was back then.   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: And I sold I mean, I could sell six or seven a week and it was like good beer, money or aside, money was better than waiting tables, to be honest, because I could still make the same amount of time, but I could be at home. So that allowed me to leave the restaurants. And then I started building Web pages. I taught myself how to code HTML about really simple Web pages and do graphic design with Photoshop and take some good photos and build Web pages. Because I started that. A lot of people out there, a lot of automotive performance shops and manufacturers didn't have Internet presence at that time because they didn't have a website. So it's like, well, shit, I could trade my skills for car parts. So it's like a barter system is like   Joe: Right,   Tony: I can get free car parts   Joe: Right.   Tony: Of a website. And that funded my car and my racing hobby. Right. And so I got known for building these little simple one to three page websites, which I would have to basically layout on Photoshop visually first and then slice them and make the little buttons and like re rebuild those slices into like what looked like a Web page on the. There is a whole lot harder than it is nowadays and I probably got 100 of those websites over a period of two years. And so I got known as the guy that could build car stuff websites and I would get paid or I would trade car parts. And I was hanging out on other communities at the time and they weren't being managed very well. You know, they were they're not paying their server bills. Things were getting crashed. And sometimes all the content we create would be gone. You know, after you built all this, how to articles and you're writing all the stuff that's free of user generated content. And and finally we approached the owner of that Web site and we said, hey, we see you've got advertisers. We know how much you charge because some of my friends, advertisers have built their websites like, why aren't you paying your server bill? It's like it's like three hundred dollars a month, like what's going on. And rather than take that as constructive feedback from some of his best supporters, like a group of us, he said, well, if you guys think you can do a better job, go start your own.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: And it never even was a thought in my mind until he said that he challenged me again, like you don't challenge me. I'm the kind of person if you challenge me, I'm going to go do it. I'm going to prove you wrong. And so I said, well, man, I could build websites and I don't know much about servers, but I'm pretty sure I can figure out how to load some software on there into a server. That's pretty easy. If I could read a how to. And so that's what we did is like, you know, two of us started a website that was at least one tech. That was November 2001. So 20 years from now and this year. And we just started as a hobby. Dude, it's like, you know, the Set-aside Kim, it's not reliable. Let's just go start our own place to hang out. And my partner, John and I, we just thought, you know, if we can make 500 dollars a month, which is the Karno to the Trans Am I had and the Karno to the Camaro SS that he had. So that would be pretty cool to be like we would have a free car just to hang out and a place to talk about cars. And I've got a big boy job and a salary and you've got your own too. And we don't need this and it's just something we want to have fun with. And I like to illustrate that because, you know, you know, shocker.   Tony: Yeah. That thing went on to earn hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in profit. And we sold it for millions in 2007, but was never intended to make millions of dollars. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, did you were you a visionary? And could you stop this? And it's like, no, we just wanted to make five hundred dollars a month. But the main difference, why we became the number one in the category and why we really dominated that entire automotive form seemy we we set so many bars and taught those other forums and the BMW sectors and the the Porsche sectors, we taught them how to monetize the audience. We, we taught them how to build a strong community and attract advertising revenue. So I had clients like Chevrolet and Cadillac and Goodyear and big name brands that were paying me to advertise on my website. So the main difference is that we treated it like a business. What started as a hobby, we started seeing real dollars come in and within within six months we're making 10000 dollars profit a month and we're like, whoa, I think we need to go get one of those. What are they called an LLC or I think we need to go do that. And I think we may need to create a separate bank account instead of just paying ourselves   Joe: Mm   Tony: Like in   Joe: Hmm.   Tony: Our personal account, like. So I love to share that because I want people understand that you don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to be the best entrepreneur ever. You don't have to overdose on YouTube and podcasts and reading books and attending seminars. You've got to just start you just   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: Got to start and you're going to improve with time.   Joe: Yeah, so the important things I want to touch upon about this before we leave the subject about Ellis one tech is how did you get the advertisers? Did you actually one of you go out as a salesperson, whether it was phone calls or in person, or did they actually care about you and come to you and say, hey, we heard about your site, we want to advertise.   Tony: And this is a little bit going back to we hear about personal branding all the time, right? Nowadays, it's   Joe: You   Tony: Like   Joe: Know.   Tony: The buzz, personal branding. You've got to build a personal brand. Well, I was already doing that, and so was he, because we were active contributors to an existing community. So to put that in today's context, we have Facebook groups, you've got online communities. Go join those communities and actually be a contributing, valuable member. That's always helping people by answering their questions and giving encouragement and giving advice and sharing your resources and sharing your network. And then you start to build that personal brand of being someone that creates value rather than asking for all the stuff. And whenever it comes time for you to go launch your own community or write a book or launch a podcast or whatever, that's your side of the fence. Guess what? You're going to have a really strong group of supporters of, you know what, this person I like them because they're always helping and they've always never asked me for anything. So here's the thing they're finally asking me for. I'm going to go support that. And that's the way it worked. And I didn't understand that. It's just my nature to be that person. I'm the person that I follow on social media or a forum or anything that I'm spending time on. If I see somebody ask a question that I know the answer to, I'm not going to be. The person goes, well, you know what? Somebody else can answer that because I don't have time or I'm just super important. And   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: Oh, that's too trivial of a question for me to answer. I'll let some beginner answer that one for them. Know, guys, if I'm scrolling and I actually see someone that needs help, I respond. If I have the time, I respond and and it takes me a few seconds. But those few seconds of me investing into that pay dividends. If there's a few seconds here, a few seconds or a few seconds there, and people start to see because what you don't understand is on a social community, especially on the Internet, is that thousand people will see that response over a period of time. Let's say you're in a Facebook group and somebody asks a really good question and you happen to have the answer, even if you think it's trivial or a beginner. But you answer it, thousands of people will see that exchange of information. They will see who asked the question, they will see who answered the question. And if they start to see this pattern showing up over and over, hey, Tony is always helping people. He's always answering questions. You don't think that's a building you some kind of a personal brand capital that you'll be able to use later on if needed, because you may never deploy that, but if needed, it's going to be there for you. So, you know, that was how we built the advertisers because we were helping the manufacturers on other sites by answering some of the technical questions.   Tony: I would buy those parts. I would install those parts. I knew how to. I would give the good and the bad of it and do a little review of those things. And we just answered questions on Web sites. And when it came time to go launch our own website, we were such contributors that they're like, you know, we're going to go see what they're doing, what's what's that's about. And we'd already established relationships with people who are willing to advertise that we actually had ten advertisers in the first week. And I was not the cold caller. My partner, John, he owned a recruiting, a technical recruiting agency, and he loved to call people on the phone. I was like, that is not me. I will build the websites. I will create the graphics, I will set up the servers. I will run things at a technical level like an engineer. And I'm a project manager by trade. By that point is like, oh, I'll plan things out and execute. And he was the one I was going to make the calls. I was OK emailing, but I still even to this day, I don't like making cold calls. And I don't I just don't.   Joe: All right, so the timeline now is you're doing your day job project, managing in the oil and gas arena, and you have this website with your friend and you are selling advertising, you're building. And it's basically if it if it looked the way it did, then that it does now. It's literally a forum that you guys built. But   Tony: Yes.   Joe: Now it's it's probably expanded. Where I see it has the marketplace and it has all these other pieces of it that's helping to build that whole infrastructure on that site.   Tony: Yeah, definitely, we we had access to all the activity logs of the forms that we created so we could see the response of the individual categories that we put in the community and the classified section. We were actually one of the first ones to do a class of five sections in a forum and an automotive forum, especially because we realized that hotrods have used parts to sell and they always want to upgrade or they're looking for a better this and that. So we put this classified in there so people can list their used parts, not new parts, because if they want to sell new parts, they need to be an advertiser. But the used parts, we're fine. And we saw that that really increased the the longevity of their visits by about 40 percent. And just give you guys a context of how busy this site was. On average, we had about 100000 unique visitors per day.   Joe: Same.   Tony: So. So if you're thinking about a speed shop or a car dealership or anything like that, imagine with a hundred thousand people walking through your front door every single day and spending an average of about 20 minutes, looks like that's how we were able to generate the advertising revenue because we had the data logs, we had the Google analytics and we said, hey, what are you guys spending on magazines and television ads? And they go, We're spending 5000 for a half page ad. And this automotive magazine, OK, cool that the automotive magazine has a circulation of about 250 copp, 250000 copies per month. We see that in two and a half days. And we're going to charge you 10 percent of what they charge. And they were like, whoa, like this is a no brainer. And said, even better, you don't have to give us content 30 days in advance ahead of publication because there's that waiting period for publishers to print magazines   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: And they have to have the content editors and make it all look pretty and put it all in the pages and number of the pages. And I said, so if you wanted to do and unveil of a product, you could actually show up that day and your representatives could log in with their account and post a video or something that they've created that day. And you could get real time feedback from the people who see it and give you questions and maybe even pull out their credit card. So, you know, forums and things like the things I created, you know, we were really were the the commercial demise of magazines in that regard. And we've seen the magazines, the publications struggle. But here's the thing. As much as I love magazines and I was a contributing editor for most of the automotive magazines for over a decade, what they failed to do was adapt. They had the brand name, they had the readership, but they were like, you know, we are super important and we're the media and we are magazines and nobody's ever going to replace magazines. And we're just super awesome in that forum stuff. That's just a waste of time Internet fad. And really, this is the kind of conversations that we would have with these publishers, say, hey, we're trying to partner up with you. How about we build out your forum and you've got the audience base? You could start mentioning it in your magazines and, you know, get them to drive to the forum and we can help you monetize that. And they're like, oh, no, we're not interested in that. Our business model is public catering and our ad rates are much higher than yours. So we make a lot more revenue than you and guys like me put them out of business. Guys like me sold my brands for millions of dollars when they went bankrupt. So that's a good lesson and adaptability and understand that you have to go where technology's telling you to go.   Joe: And same with the newspapers, right? They didn't move   Tony: Oh,   Joe: Quick   Tony: Yeah.   Joe: Enough. Same thing. Yeah,   Tony: They have the audience   Joe: I   Tony: And   Joe: Know.   Tony: They don't use it.   Joe: It's crazy.   Tony: The   Joe: Ok,   Tony: Men had it.   Joe: So I don't want to harp on this subject too long, but I want to make sure that the audience understands the the exit route and how that happened out of this. And so still, at this point, you still have a dual career, right? You're still working and you still have this website. It wasn't like this Web site took off so much that you decided that, OK, I'm not doing the day job anymore.   Tony: Now, that's one of the things people ask me is why didn't you quit your job? You know, when we were really the last two years that we're on this website, we're making about hundred thousand a year profit and. People are like, well, why don't you quit because at that point, my job was probably making 150, 175 range and I said, well, I also work offshore. I did a lot of offshore construction. So sometimes I was gone 28 days, sometimes with Internet, sometimes without. And so me being a project manager and engineer, I was very well adept at writing processes and procedures and systems that other people could follow. That's what I did for a career. And I said, I don't need to fire myself. So how can I create processes and systems to be able to hand these to other people that can do these in my absence? Because I don't can't guarantee if I'm going to be there or not. And so that's what I did, is we started to build a team at about 75 people on the team and we paid them in perks and free car parts and sponsorships and sometimes, you know, ten, ninety nine dollars just to do certain tasks. And that's what I did, is I fired myself. And what that did is allowed me to use my website as a consumer now. So I get to be at the same ground level and see what the problems were and what we could improve on and how we can add more features to attract more eyeballs and more time on screen.   Tony: And a lot of the things that Facebook and Instagram do nowadays, we were doing a long time ago. We just had to do it manually versus, you know, with A.I. So that's what we do, is we try to stay focused on how can we increase engagement, how to increase eyeballs, how to increase time on screen, and what was the hot topics and what are the things that we can do to create content that was going to keep them coming back as the value proposition that needed exist for them to be entertained or get some information. And there's a reason my website is still existing and I sold it. And still it is still the number one General Motors website to this day. It's been 20 years. But the thing is that I didn't quit the job because I didn't need to. And it goes back to that scarcity mindset that I grew up with, that if I can work the career and make, you know, 150000 plus like, why would I quit that? Because, one, we were the top of the market share. We're number one. And they're always trying to people trying to take us down or literally hundreds of copies of our website, always trying to take us down. But we are way ahead of these people. Right. And so I had the market share me working one hour a day versus eight hours. There was not going to ATX my revenue. It wasn't going to increase revenue at all. I had the market share.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: So the hours versus multiplication just wasn't there. Right. I was realistic about that. I could have been lazy and played PlayStation at that time or Xbox 360 and built cars and done nothing but. But why would I do that? Is like in I wasn't where I wanted to be at the time, so I was OK stacking money, working to career that also I had to struggle to get that engineering degree. And for a long time I felt like I didn't want to waste that effort. You know, I built it. I spent this time and investment and the hardship I explained earlier and I said, you know what? I don't want to waste my degree. I was pursuing the corporate executive path in oil and gas eventually. So I was very good at my career and I was very good at entrepreneurship at the same time. And I always find that was fascinating because I I saw my entrepreneur friends on one side of the fence and I saw my employee friends on the other side of the fence. And the mindsets are completely different between the two. And I would try to cross over. So I was what you would call an intrapreneur, someone who's an entrepreneur that works within a corporation to try to always enhance, improve, evolve. And I was always met with resistance, especially the larger the company names game. I was working for major oil companies in my later career. I mean, I left in 2015 and it was always like, hey, if it isn't broke, don't fix it. You know, this is the way we've always done it. Like all these things that   Joe: Mm   Tony: Make   Joe: Hmm.   Tony: Corporations collapse.   Joe: Same old thing, yeah.   Tony: Same thing over and over and over. And it drove me nuts. And but yeah, that's that's why I never quit, man. I was good at doing both.   Joe: Ok, so how did you how did the approach happen to buy the website?   Tony: And that's a funny one, because at the time, very few people understood the amount of volume and dollars that was coming through a business model like that, because they just thought, oh, it's a cool car side. People are hanging around and making, you know, talking about cars. They're probably making, you know, 50000 a year doing this. You know that that's probably what they're thinking.   Joe: And   Tony: Nobody   Joe: I have   Tony: Knew.   Joe: To I have to make the point that when you did this, it was hard to do what you did. It was not the drag and drop and all of   Tony: Uh.   Joe: That stuff. It was not easy because I grew up I was telling a story the other day. I used to teach companies how to use an Internet browser like   Tony: Oh, yeah,   Joe: I   Tony: You   Joe: If   Tony: Know   Joe: I'm old   Tony: You   Joe: Enough   Tony: Know,   Joe: That   Tony: We're from   Joe: The   Tony: The same era.   Joe: Well, I'm probably older than you. But anyhow, you you did this at a really hard time. And when you're talking about the you know, the construction of the site and then on top of it being smart enough to keep all of the logs and Google analytics, I mean, it's hard to use today. I can't even imagine what it was like when you were trying to pull the data out when you did it. So I just wanted to make that point. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I think people need to understand   Tony: Now.   Joe: That this you have to put it into the context of when it happened. And it was not easy at the time that you did it.   Tony: Yeah, yeah. For context, I sold the website in 2007 and I was 34 and multimillionaire and Facebook and Instagram came out two years later.   Joe: There you go.   Tony: See, so everything that you see now, easy, like I could just do a video and   Joe: The.   Tony: I could do targeted ads and I can find all these people like we didn't have that we had we had to rely on joint ventures with media and racing events and person type events to be able to to really build the snowball of momentum.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: There was no like buying targeted ads. And it's super easy nowadays. Like, really, there's the excuses nowadays for entrepreneurs to not have success is like it just makes me laugh. It's like, come on, it's never been easier. The information has never been easier to find. All the stuff is being shared nowadays, which we had to go learn ourselves the hard way. And, you know, so the approach going back to the question of the approach. So it wasn't uncommon for people to casually email us saying, hey, you think about selling your website and. We never really thought about it, to be honest, because we're doing pretty well. We didn't need to sell it and we were really taking a lot of the profits, rolling it back in the company to make it grow because we had careers. And so they would always just just out of curiosity, once someone was, hey, would you like to sell your website? We always would entertain the question. We would say, well, what do you think it's worth? Because we're curious ourselves. Like we   Joe: All   Tony: Didn't know anything about   Joe: Right.   Tony: Valuation.   Joe: All right.   Tony: Like, what do you think it's worth? Like what's your offer? And most of it would be like, you know, I was thinking like Dr. Evil. We know when he talked about the one million dollars like this and it was like it. Going to go watch that movie if you haven't. You know what I'm talking about, but they'll be like, how about a hundred thousand dollars?   Joe: Right.   Tony: Thinking like, man, we sold advertising packages for bigger than that, you know, like, do you want to buy an ad package or do you want to buy the website?   Joe: Right.   Tony: You know, and and it just shows you that they had no clue. And that probably happened a dozen times over a period of quarters. And we just kind of laughed about it like they don't know. And we're not going to tell them what we're making because it's just they just have no clue. And and this is one company came in and they their eventual buyers were a little bit different in their approach. And they said, hey, we're looking at acquiring the top level forums and each brand marquee. We've already bought this one, this one, this one and this one. And all of those brands we were well recognized with, like it was the best BMW side, the best Volkswagen site, like top level names on par with the one I'd built for General Motors. I was like, whoa, if those people sold, then maybe there's some there's something to this one. Right.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: I remember having this conversation with John. And as a man, we're kind of getting long in the tooth on this. I want to go build on some different projects. I want to do something different. And, you know, what do you think? And he's like, we're both on board. Like, you know, if they make us this offer and we came up with a number. Right. And I said, if they come up to this and we can negotiate it, I think we both agree that will sell as I call. So we responded back and said we'd entertain this offer. You know, what kind of questions would you like answered? And they actually asked if they could put their Google Analytics pixel into our website so they could see for themselves if we're full of shit or not. I said, OK, no problems. I'll put it in there to help them put it in there. And then about two weeks later, they called back and they said, we're at it, have a discussion with you guys about the moving forward. And I said, OK, cool. And so their initial offer was double our number that we had come up with in our mind.   Joe: Oh, my gosh.   Tony: And we're like, oh. So we had to contain our excitement, first of all. And act like, oh, OK, well, we'll consider   Joe: Right.   Tony: That we're going to have a talk about that and we'll get back to you. And the first thing I said is like, John, we need a lawyer, we need it. We need to get an attorney. That's a good with M&A and we need to have some conversations with him on these early contracts, negotiation things. And of course, luckily, he had a good friend of his that specialize that in Chicago. And we got on the phone we talked a couple of times, went through some details of the preliminary offer. And he's like, so you're going to counter right? Or like, well, should we? And he's like, yeah, there are first offers, always the lowest   Joe: Mm   Tony: Offer,   Joe: Hmm.   Tony: Like, what do you want to make? And so we said, well, what about this? No, it's like worst they can say is no. And so we put that back out to them and they said, sounds good to us. And   Joe: Wow.   Tony: We're like, damn it, maybe we should ask   Joe: All   Tony: For some   Joe: Right.   Tony: More. So of course, we're not going to be greedy because it was already double our number in our mind. And we sold them and then they said yes, and we're so cool. We went down that road and it was about a better one year due diligence phase of going through all the accounting and understanding, all the systems and processes in place and negotiating the contract and the details. And that was a really, I would say, a semi stressful situation,   Joe: Yeah,   Tony: Because   Joe: I can imagine.   Tony: Even though that the millions of dollars is looking in your mind, you don't really think it's real. Actually, because I actually interviewed somebody on my show yesterday. It sold a nine figure exit and he and I had very similar, even though he was a whole different range of the money. I made very similar psychological things going through your mind because it seems fake until you see it in your actual bank account.   Joe: Yep.   Tony: And even when you initially see it in your bank account, it still feels a little fake until you, like, spend it a little bit, you're like it's real, OK, they're not going to call me back and say, oh, we made a mistake. We need to have our money back. Right.   Joe: All right.   Tony: So does these weird things that we go through the exit companies and only one percent of businesses actually sell. And to hear this kind of experience is very rare. But I wanted to be really transparent and show people that because it's a it's very intrusive to go through that your books better be damn right. If you think you can lie about things that your company is doing or not doing, you're going to get discovered during that because lawyers get involved and they're digging through all kinds of stuff. I mean, they're literally looking for ways to devalue your company and you're looking for ways to add value to your company during that one year process. So you just got to be transparent about things and keep your books in order. That's the main thing. And learn how to build valuation in your companies. And it just turns out we were just doing everything right. We had the recurring revenue business model. We had presold ads. We were cash flow positive. We had proven database of, you know, information of users and their emails and our names, which increased valuation based on customer acquisition cost. It would cost them to go find those people in the same market. So we had a lot of things that were checking the boxes. And it was also a tech platform with a really strong brand, which also increased valuation. So we just did everything the right way. And the reason we did that is because we just did things like business. Again, it wasn't a hobby to us.   Joe: Yep, so you get to the final stage, it gets sold, they buy it, you sell it, you're still working. How long did you stay at your job once you exited this company?   Tony: Another eight more.   Joe: Eight more years.   Tony: Eight more years.   Joe: Wow,   Tony: Yeah,   Joe: That was   Tony: I   Joe: Not the   Tony: Actually   Joe: Answer   Tony: Had   Joe: I expected.   Tony: I had spin offs, I had verticals that I created from that acquisition, I had a retail company selling wheels for cars because, one, we didn't have an advertiser that was selling wheels. And I was referring a lot of business out the door. And I said, you meant I could just do the buying and get another LLC and create my own wheel company and sell the wheels. And, you know, that became a seven figure business on its own. And when the website came up for sale, I said, do you guys want the retail side? Or like, oh, now we just want the data. We want the assets. We don't want anything to do with retail. They're a marketing house.   Joe: Yes.   Tony: I was like, so I could just create another LLC and keep this business to myself. And that's and so I did. So I still had a seven figure business even after that. That was part time that I enjoyed that kept me in the industry, kept me relevant, kept me engaged in cars. And so but I was also in that pursuit of becoming an executive with an oil and gas. That was my my goal. And I was really good at navigating that. And I made it towards making about 250000 a year in salary. And and near the end of that, I started to realize that the oil industry just doesn't treat people as good as they should. And I started to have to be that person that had to make tough decisions on employing certain people. And even though they were high performers and I got to see a lot of shady things in H.R., the things that are unwritten that we always hear about, like ageism and like cutting people before their pension fully   Joe: Oh,   Tony: Hits   Joe: Man.   Tony: Because, you know, it's a it's a it's a it's a financial decision. It's not personal. And I get to see this multiple times. And it started to impact me. And it's like, you know, I don't want to support another industry that does not support people, that we're we're basically disposable. And when I was young and disposable and making less money, it was very easy to find me a replacement job because I was it was inexpensive and unexperienced as I started to make, you know, multiple six figures. And in my 40s, if I were getting laid off, it was typically a six to eight month sitting on the bench waiting for the next bus to come around type scenario. And a lot of times I was having to fire myself and put people in my my desk that was ten years younger than me and 100000. I was less income than made just to keep the bench warm. For me to return at the market turned around. I was like, I don't like being in this situation. And so, you know, I took a near-death experience for me, racing cars to finally realize, like, I don't want to go back to that and I need to go create more impact in the world. And that's what I did, is I decided I need to go teach people what I have passions for. And one was cars, which I built a lot of success in cars. The other thing has always been entrepreneurship. And so I said, OK, that's how I'm going to best impact this world, is teach people business and confidence around being an entrepreneur. And that's what I've been doing since 2017. It took me two years, even after leaving my job, to think about what I really wanted to do. You know, was it was it a nonprofit, wasn't a philanthropy? What is it that I wanted to do? And for me, I just love to be a teacher, so that's why I do what I do now.   Joe: So do you. I've thought about this question a lot in regards to you, if this if the site didn't do what it did and you didn't sell it and make that kind of money. Have you ever thought about where you would be today?   Tony: Yeah, I would still be working in the oil and gas industry for sure.   Joe: So   Tony: For sure.   Joe: With viewers, listeners and viewers that will hear this. What would you say to them if they were to say, well, he I mean, you did the work, it wasn't like you got lucky, but you got lucky in the sense that someone wanted to buy it. Right. I mean, and and   Tony: Yeah, it wasn't for sale,   Joe: Right.   Tony: So you're right.   Joe: So someone saying, well, what's the chances of that happening to me? Or how do I if that doesn't happen, then I do have to just continue on the path that I'm on. So what would you say to them about not getting a lucky break like that? How do you create that break for yourself to to then become this entrepreneur and service the world and do good things?   Tony: I mean, honestly. My book, Side Hustle Millionaire, teaches people how to take the ideas for businesses and create reality out of those, because I was always ask, hey, what do you think about this business idea and what do you think about this? And the thing is that too many people take pride in having ideas. They think that there's their super smart. They think they're genius because they have this idea. And, you know, you and I both know that thousands of people die every single day with brilliant ideas and take them to the grave that were never materialized. And so ideas really aren't worth anything until you take any actions and see some results from those. So don't give yourself too much credit if you're listening to this or watching this, if you've got an idea, unless you try it and it's OK to fail, sometimes failing is actually the best lessons. But for people who are employed when you're all your bills are paid, you need to start thinking about what the number is and the number is what is the bare necessities. You need to be able to sustain your lifestyle or even downgrade your lifestyle.   Tony: Let's be honest, because a lot of times people live above their means. What is the number? And I'm thinking a dollar number. What is the actual number like? Take your rent or your mortgage, your car, note your insurance, your food, your utilities, and put them on a spreadsheet and go, this is the number. And if it's 2000 or 3000 or 10000, whatever that number is, you need to have that number in your mind. Because once you start to make a profit in your side business that meets or exceeds that number, you need to really force yourself into a decision moment. Like you need to know that number is so important to know that number, because a lot of times we find that side hustlers and people that do things on the side will exceed that number, but never force themselves into decision mode. Because the question that you have to have in this decision is, should I just drop my career and go full time with this? And I have two reasons to do that. Right. Like you heard me give examples of why I didn't leave because it wouldn't have increased my income   Joe: At.   Tony: Like I was the number one in the category. I had all the market share. The extra hours would not have translated to extra dollars. It made no sense for me to leave. Now, if you do have a company and you realize that, hey, if I can contribute eight extra hours, maybe nine hours, if you have a commute to go to work, if I can commit nine extra hours a day to this business, what are the numbers look like? Does it scale? Does it make a higher profit? Because I'm already at the number I could actually leave right now. I actually have a parachute on my back that I could deploy that it's going to replace my salary already. So why am I staying here? And if the answer is like, yeah, extra hours will increase the business, it will also increase your freedom and your confidence. And most people really don't understand the confidence that entrepreneurship brings because I've never experienced that. There's something beautiful about commuting to your coffeemaker and walking to your office and you're in your own house, in your pajamas   Joe: Aymen.   Tony: And and waking up like you fire up the email, you go, Oh, I made three thousand dollars last night while I was asleep. I mean, it just sounds so unrealistic. But the reality is, is realistic realistically, when you start to surround yourself with people who are doing it and who could teach you how to do that, your eyes just start to open up and you go, wow, I remember thinking, eighty five dollars an hour at work was like a lot of money because that's close to two hundred thousand dollars salary. You know, I remember negotiating like they wanted to give me eighty, eighty dollars an hour and I was like, I want nineteen. OK, how about we meet in the middle eighty five. I mean I was at 180, 200 range. If you do the if you do the math. And the thing is, is there's this perception that multiple six figures is a lot of money and corporate and it is because I get it, the average income in the United States is 67000 a year. Some people will never make 100000 hours. It's sad to me because I can make that in a weekend now.   Tony: And had you asked me twenty years ago if that was possible with a laugh, it's like there's no way you can make a hundred thousand dollars in a week. And that just sounds stupid, like you're dreaming. You get rich quick, you join some kind of network marketing or whatever, like it's bullcrap, Tony. But now I've done it a couple of times, like why did I ever have these limitations on income and why did that exist? And you start to think about where that comes from. It's because of your supervisors, from your parents is from your teacher, your professors. They're telling you what you they think you're worth based on what the market will bear. Oh, you're a mechanical engineer. Well, you can make one hundred fifty thousand dollars if you work twenty years. So, OK, so your self-worth becomes well, I can make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars by the time I'm sixty, and maybe they'll give a bonus to me and my last five years as an attaboy and I'll get a Rolex. And   Joe: Right.   Tony: Why the hell we give Rolex is to people that are retiring. Like what do they need to be on time anymore.   Joe: Exactly.   Tony: Like thank you. What, why don't you give me the Rolex when I'm twenty, so I'm always on time. Right. So a lot of weird things. They were created in these boundaries and and so people tend to define their self-worth based on a limitation of their salary. Their profession, which is really sad, is really sad.   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: And none of these limitations exist in reality. It's that there's no such thing as a limitation. And when you start to hang around people that think like I do, you're going to challenge everything you believe. And it's going to be really hard to to unwind a lot of the things that were were screwed up with. But it's crazy. The reality of. It really exists.   Joe: Yeah, and this is why I do my podcast and I openly admit it to people, is it's because it's a selfish endeavor for me to be able to hang out with people like you and just virtually rub elbows. And at some point, hopefully we meet in person. But that's the goal, is to change the mindset. I watched my father just work himself to death. He literally was. I forget if it was two weeks away from retiring and had a stroke   Tony: Oh,   Joe: And   Tony: Man.   Joe: Was paralyzed on his right side. I watched him work harder than any man I ever watched. And I just I don't want to see that. I don't want to experience that. So I appreciate that. So you jumped ahead on me, which is great, because I want to know. So here's twenty seventeen. Your you decide that you're going to do you know, you're   Tony: The   Joe: Going   Tony: Coaching   Joe: To do   Tony: And the   Joe: The   Tony: The   Joe: Coaching.   Tony: Community building, yeah.   Joe: So when did you decide to write Side Hustle a Millionaire. When did you decide that. Well I have to write a book on this because that's a big endeavor. I everybody I hear that has written a book says it's probably one of the hardest things I ever had to do.   Tony: You know, the funny thing about writing the book. Side Hustle Millionaire was a idea in my mind five years before I actually wrote it. Five years, because I knew even because I was around 40 at that time and I was like, you know, I need to do something that helps more people, you know, before the Internet flex on Instagram, I was the one that would post driveway photos with 10 cars and things like that, because, one, I had some insecurity issues and self validation things that I had to work through. And I didn't ever feel like I belong with the rich people. And I had to prove that I belong with them and a whole lot of weird things that we grow up through. But besides, the point is that as I wanted to start teaching people how I got those cars, because the only people that were benefiting from that knowledge were my friends and like people I worked with people within my close proximity because one, I didn't like being on camera. I didn't like being on stage. I didn't like my recorded voice. And I had a lot of insecurities around that, too. And I became a highly successful kind of in the background, and I was fine with that. So anytime people were like, oh, you should go write a book and you could teach all the stuff, I'd be like, Oh man, but I'm so busy. You know, I've got a kid and a wife and I've got a career and I've got this retail company. And I would just make a a list of bullshit excuses of things why I wasn't really serving the purpose that I am on today.   Tony: And it was all stem based on the fear of criticism. Right. And so even when I go through this near-death experience, racing cars and deciding that I need to impact the world, I was still approaching it from a I need to make impact. But I was still being cowardly about my way of doing that, my method. And so I said, you know what, I could write a book. And that doesn't mean I have to be on a stage or a camera or radio or TV and I can just write this book and it'll be a good way that's affordable. It's portable, and I can get what's in my mind out to thousands of people. And so I decided in really November of 2017 I'm going to write a book and I validated the idea and use my social media to ask what they would want from me. And I asked them what questions they would want answered. I was really good at using my entrepreneurship, evaluating a product before I spend time on it. I did that. I applied the same principles to a book which is another product. And while I was writing the book, my editor, Mike, I was giving him a chapter at a time to review and he was like, Man, this is going to be a good book. I cannot tell because he's helped a lot of people become bestsellers and and one day he's like, they're going to want to interview.   Joe: You're like, oh, no.   Tony: Yeah, he's like because you might be on TV, radio, podcasts, and I felt that Stagefright, again, coming up was like, I'm in. But I'm kind of a daredevil anyways, and I said, you know what, this is a sign. This is this is a sign I need to go take care of this fear. So just like any other normal human with a fear or something or challenge like so just like most people with a fear of public speaking or any other challenge, they basically get on Google or they get on Syria, they ask, you know, how do we overcome this? And for the results, I said, join a Toastmasters or join a Rotary Club and hire a speaking coach. I said, OK, this is something I have to do. And and obviously, it was really, really avoiding this kind of scenario. So I joined Toastmasters. It's a it's a nonprofit that teaches public speaking and leadership. And there's local clubs all over the world and is really inexpensive. I think it was like 45 dollars for our whole six months. And I said this is like a no brainer. So I'll I'll try that. And so I said, if I'm going to go, I'm going. I'm not going to be a spectator. I'm going to make myself really uncomfortable. I want to sit in the front row and I'm going to raise my hand every meeting with, like once a week and just volunteer to do something in the front of the room and just make myself uncomfortable. And because I knew that the book was about five months out and I needed to get ahead of this. Right. So   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: So that's what I did is so I would learn a new tactic of public speaking at a meeting. And then for the next seven days, I would do videos. I would I would go on Instagram or Facebook and just practice what I was learning on public speaking to my phone and is really uncomfortable. And I did not. All those videos exist or like in May, June of 2017. And I basically just I just did them every day. And that's how I improved. And I used to be so afraid of just doing videos, I would do them in my truck. Somebody walked by in the park in like an aisle away, I would put the camera down and act like I wasn't doing any videos because I was so weird to go through that. And I would record myself like ten takes and I would finally get one. That was the best I could do at that given moment. And I would share that one. And and that's how I did better. And I did that for over a year. And now within six months of me joining Toastmasters and doing those reps and making myself uncomfortable and doing about a speech per month, I actually started competing and representing that club and the Toastmasters competitions. And I actually won and went three rounds like   Joe: Wow.   Tony: I went I was like fourth place in all of Houston, you know, after doing the club level than the area level that I went to district. And it was it was crazy. So even after winning a couple of competitions, I, I finally started realizing there might actually be something to this. Like I actually might be OK at doing this.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: So it's me winning competitions to finally realized that. And like anything else that I get into, I just go all in. And to me, public speaking was the thing I needed to go get good at. And I focused on it. I studied who I thought were the best speakers. I learned from people to hire a speaking coach. And I did reps and and I actually became the president of that Toastmasters club. And I grew it to one of the largest clubs in Houston and had about 50 active members at the time. I was president for a year or so. I got to go from being transformed to transforming hundreds of people that came in and out those doors for a period of over four years of being in that organization. And and I just I've seen so many changes that most people really underestimate the the quickness you can change. And I would say for most Toastmasters, you can come in definitely afraid. And if you participate within three to six months, you'll be a completely different person. So it happens that fast. And I've seen it too many times to to argue the results. So if you're out there and you're worried about public speaking or doing videos like this or you have a fear of that, like go join, make yourself uncomfortable, do the reps and it is a skill is not a talent. When you hear someone speaking like I do now, it's not a talent. It's not something I was born with. It wasn't even a thought in my mind to be a public speaker. But I learned the tactics and the strategies of effective communication and how to use my vocal inflections and speed and volume control presence, hands. All the things that you never even think about are part of communication. You learn when you actually get coached and you actually it's a skill. It's just like learning a new language.   Joe: Yeah, and it was a real surprise to me, because I actually heard you say that you had a real fear of public speaking in it. I think it was a clubhouse room because you were giving advice to someone. And when you said that, I was like, I can't be the same person. I just, you know, I didn't understand it. And I personally think, you know, I come from the entertainment side of things. I own an entertainment booking agency here in Phoenix, probably one of the biggest ones here. So I was a performer my whole life. So it's not hard for me to necessarily do this, even though, yeah, a lot of people don't like how they look. They don't like how they're their own voice, all these things. But   Tony: Yeah.   Joe: I think you have a great voice. It's it's incredibly soothing the way that's what I liked about how you presented yourself in those rooms. It wasn't like I'm great and it wasn't like there's a lot of people that just sort of yell and they're like, you know, that's how they   Tony: I'm   Joe: Get there   Tony: Super awesome,   Joe: Exist.   Tony: And for nine hundred ninety seven dollars,   Joe: But   Tony: You can get the course that will make you a millionaire   Joe: That   Tony: And one   Joe: Is

Dr. Mark Dean has a superpower. He wasn’t born with it. He wasn’t exposed to high levels of radiation. It’s a power he learned from his father. And because of it, he was able to revolutionize the personal computer. David Bradley explains how in the 1980s, IBM had a reputation for building big, enterprise mainframes. No one believed IBM could make a competitive PC. But that’s exactly what “Project Chess” was tasked with creating. Tony Hey describes the monumental shift in strategy it was for IBM to enter the PC market. Pete Martinez and Dennis Moeller recount their days working with Mark on the skunkworks project. And how IBM's strategy for creating a computer in under a year changed the personal computing industry forever—opening it to innovators outside the walls of IBM. Mark Dean holds 3 of the 9 patents for the IBM 5150—the first IBM PC—including the revolutionary ISA bus. He then went on to lead the team that created the first gigahertz microprocessor, and eventually taught at the University of Tennessee. Mwamba Bowa shares her most cherished lesson from the inventor—how to cultivate that super power for herself. Clips of Mark Dean courtesy of Susan "Suze" Shaner, Principal of Sage Leadership Strategies, from a Comcast Cable interview, November 2009, and from the American Museum of Science & Energy featured talk, August 2019.If you want to read up on some of our research on Dr. Mark Dean, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.

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Usually, paying attention to your body, mind, and health is the last thing you do when it comes to your business. It’s time to focus on yourself first! Today, I am talking to Tony LeBlanc, second-generation property manager and author of The Doorpreneur: Property Management Beyond the Rent Roll. Tony shares the keys to debunking the rent roll paradox when chasing doors to grow.  You’ll Learn... [03:00] Software Engineer Stint: Tech geek at heart that brings love of technology into property management space. [04:30] What is rent roll paradox? Property management companies that constantly rely on getting new doors to grow their business.  [05:42] Chasing doors creates havoc and stress due to inefficiencies. [08:45] Expanding Territories/Locations: The bigger and more geographically dispersed a business gets, the more opportunities arise that aren’t taken advantage of.  [10:56] Would you want two doors making the same amount, or one door making same amount as two? One door, if the goal is revenue/profit, it's not just about adding doors.  [12:30] Premature Expansion: Go-to once a company reaches a certain size; anything premature is generally not a good thing. [14:13] Entrepreneur’s Journey: Everyone hits stagnation or desire for more. They get distracted by opportunity.  [15:11] Opportunities vs. Expansion: Think it through, be disciplined, and follow good habits before making the jump and knowing where you’re going. [17:40] Cycle of Suck: Bad owners, properties, reputation, and false scarcity. [18:15] Property management is changing. It’s future is a foundation full of opportunities. [21:50] Dinosaur Dictators vs. Millennials Seeking Meaning and Purpose: Good property management can change the world.  [22:45] Tony’s Aha Moment: We matter and play an important role in thousands of people’s day-to-day life. [28:30] Target on Back: How to deal with being overwhelmed as a property manager. [32:14] When we create and have constraints, when we're limited in our time and attention, we innovate. Tweetables Growth doesn't happen by accident. Personal growth is gateway to business growth. Chasing Doors: Is all you care about being introduced to new people, close deals, and get more doors? Property management’s growth is defined by doors that it turns down, not doors it gets. Focus is power. Cut something out in your life to achieve something. Resources The Doorpreneur by Tony LeBlanc Ground Floor Property Management National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) Cycle of Suck DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers are those that love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. My guest today is Tony LeBlanc from Canada. Welcome Tony, how are you doing? Tony: Hey man, I'm doing great, Jason. Thanks for having me. Jason: I'm really excited to have you on the show. You've been on before a long time ago and I was telling you in the green room before the show, but I think we resonate with a lot of similar values. I think we're both growth-minded people. I read your Doorpreneur book, which everybody should take a look at. And I think we have a similar mindset that growth doesn't happen by accident and personal growth is the gateway to business growth. I think we probably would both agree. Tony: Absolutely. Jason: I posted about this just the other day. I think it's the last thing that everybody wants to pay attention to in their business, is themselves. They’ll focus on everything external. “I need more leads. I need this. I need this.” Ironically, if I could change the person or get them clear on themselves, then all of those things end up changing by default, everything. Website marketing, everything into changing by default if you focus on yourself first. Tony give people a little bit of background. Maybe those that had heard you before, bring them up-to-date. Tell us a little bit about who Tony is. Tony: Sure, thanks Jason. I said my name's Tony LeBlanc from eastern Canada. Born and raised out here. I am a second generation property manager. It wasn't my first career of choice. I actually got into it as my second career. My first career was a 15-year stint as a software engineer with IBM which provided me an amazing experience visiting the world and working with a lot of great people in that domain. I'm a tech geek at heart. I love technology and I don't think that'll ever go away. It’s been interesting to bring that into the property management world, because as everybody knows, technology in the property management space is still not, in my opinion, where it should be. I still think we’re 5-10 years behind some of the stuff that we should have out there available to us. I still find it very difficult to run my business with the standard property management software that they have out there. After I left IBM, I started my management company which had been running out for about 10 years, called Ground Floor Property Management. We have been very well-received in our community. We now have three locations and I am now an author. I've basically taken everything that I've learnt from IBM, from life, and from the last 10 years of growing my property management company as well as the spin offs that we've created over the years, and that's where I am today, introducing the doorpreneur way. Jason: Perfect. The title of the show is the Keys to Debunking the Rent Roll Paradox. What is the rent roll paradox? Tony: The rent roll paradox is the fact that most, if not all property management companies out there, are constantly relying on getting new doors to grow their business. I believe there's a different way. I believe there is a much better way than doing that. And I say that from experience. For the first five years of running Ground Floor, my property management company, I was nothing but a door chaser. I just wanted to grow, grow, grow, grow. That's all I cared about. I just wanted to be introduced to new people, close deals, and get more doors. We got to the point to where we reached almost 2000 doors in five years. That’s across three locations. It was fast, it was intense, and it was incredibly painful. Incredibly painful. Now that I've gotten into the second five-year phase of the management journey, I've learned a lot looking back, and I realized that as I was going through that growth phase, I'm just adding more doors, and more doors, and more doors. I was causing a lot of havoc and stress on myself and my staff, but I was leaving an incredible amount of money on the table because of inefficiencies. If anybody's growing a property management company, when you're getting doors pouring in—we do multi-rise mostly, not just single family—it's a lot of work. We've onboarded 50, 60, 124 unit buildings, and it consumes you for a period of time. If you don't give the proper amount of space in between those growth, it becomes rough, but you don't want to take your foot off the gas if you're like me. Jason: Yeah, so let's touch on this real quick. I tell people this all the time. If somebody calls me and they say, “I am thinking of starting a property management business,” I say, “Do you want me to talk you into it or out of it?” because I get to see inside hundreds of companies. They usually laugh, but they usually stay into it. The thing is, this property management is easily death by a thousand cuts. Tony: Absolutely. Jason: If you have one little problem with one door and then you have a thousand doors, you have thousands of those problems over and over again. That's why it's so critical to shore up some of these leaks early on, because if you're having problems now and you feel like it's stressful now, just adding more doors is throwing gasoline on whatever fire you have. If that fire is a bad fire, then it's just going to explode. It’s going to be worse. Customer service goes down. You have more complaints and it compounds. Usually, they have to make significant changes just to go from 50-60 units under management to break past that first sand trap—I call 50-60 door the solopreneur sand trap—to break 100 doors. Just to do that, they have to change everything. Ironically, I’ll real estate companies that are doing property management on the side, break past that barrier artificially without making the necessary changes. They don't get technology in place, they don’t get systems in place, and it will pass it. One of my case studies was a client that had 600 units under management, single family, and was making $0 in this business. I said, “How are you doing that?” he’s like, “I've $3 million a month in real estate every month or whatever. I'm doing real estate.” Property management can be death by a thousand cuts. You have this pain, but you have growth and I'm sure a lot of people are like, “I would love that problem. I would love the problem to deal with, to figure out how to get 2000 doors and quit crying,” so tell us a little bit about your experience after that. Tony: One of the big things was expanding into different territories. Our headquarters, which is my main office, we’re doing extremely well. We then split off to another city within an hour-and-a-half away, and that ended up going well. The third location came in and that started off really well, but then about a year later, we started looking at all three locations individually, and we started seeing a lot of gaps, and a lot of issues that we're struggling with. We made a conscious effort to obviously fix a lot of those things and it made us really pull the curtain back and look at the overall business as it sat. The bigger we got and the more geographically dispersed that we became, we started seeing a lot of opportunities that we were just not taking advantage of. When I started the management company 10 years ago, I had maintenance as part of the division. That's the way my mother did it and that's the way I wanted to do it. I always wanted to have my own maintenance guys on my payroll so that I can control that and we still do that to this day. What really became evident as we're studying and looking at our rent rolls across all three locations, was the amount of money that was being spent outside in terms of different trades, different services that were required on all these properties. To be quite honest with you, I was getting tired of chasing doors. It wasn't as enticing anymore. Don't get me wrong, we still grow, we still love getting new doors, but something had changed in me. Then we were really started looking at what can we do beyond just getting more doors and that's really when the whole doorpreneur philosophy was born. Our first pivot into a new business that serviced our portfolios was landscaping [...] and that's where everything grew from there. Jason: Here's an obvious question. Would you rather have two doors that are making the same amount or one door that's making the same amount as two? Tony: Definitely one. Absolutely. Jason: Absolutely. If the goal is revenue, the goal is profit, and it's not just about adding doors. Everyone focuses on that one multiplier, it is doors. Everyone's trying to get a deal and it's like one deal per door. What if you can get multiple doors per deal? What if you can get multiple years per door? What about duration? There's all these other factors they’re not paying attention to. There are some property managers out there that are replacing every door every year. They're usually about 50-60 units, they're getting on an accidental investor that leaves every year, they have to replace every damn door every year, and they're like, “We’re adding doors, why aren’t we growing?” It seems so obvious. Tony: The major shift for us has been quality over quantity. I say no to more doors today than I ever have in my 10-year career running this company. It's really all about where can we take this? Where can we take that door and what can it do in the long term? Jason: Yeah. I think a property management company’s growth will always be defined by the doors that they're willing to turn down, not the doors they're able to get on for sure. I think another thing going back to your rent roll paradox, you talked about expanding into locations. I think that's a go-to once a company hits a certain size, they're like, “We did it here, let's go here.” They just had me speak on this at the Ironman conference on a panel and I call that, premature expansion. Anything premature is generally not a good thing. A lot of people think, “Well, we did this here, we're hitting a cap in our door account, so instead of expanding our revenue opportunities with those doors, or here, or figuring out other ways to hit different parts of the market here, let's just go find a new market. We’ll do it all over again,” they don't realize it's worse than being twice as hard in starting a new location. Tony: 100%. The stories that I can tell you about the two locations that we can open. It all comes back to a fundamental need of chasing doors. It’s like that's all you're able to see. We got this tunnel vision. It's like, “Okay, I've grown here and I think I'm as big as I can get. Where else can I go and chase more doors?” It's fulfilling for the first little while. It's fun, it’s exciting, but there's an emptiness to it in the end. I think I'm a little bit different than maybe probably a lot of traditional type property managers. I knew when I started Ground Floor that it was going to be something much bigger than just a property management company. I had that vision 10-15 years ago and just running after doors, it lasted for 3-4 years and then I was like, “Okay, what's next? Is this it? What else can I do in here?” That's when a lot of other things started coming along. Jason: I think that's common for every entrepreneur in the entrepreneurial journey. If they really are an entrepreneurial-minded person, they're going to hit this stagnation or this desire for more. The desire to do more. Sometimes that goes south and they do it in negative or dysfunctional ways. I started out just doing websites. Then I go like, “Hey, I could make residual income if I'm doing the hosting for these websites. I could do this. They also need the service.” I think as entrepreneurs, we also get distracted by opportunity. We see it everywhere and it keeps us sometimes from even achieving the goal we're working on right now. How do you find that balance between seeing all the opportunity and expanding into new areas, but making sure that you're actually getting stuff done? Tony: I'll be honest with you. The first couple of years, I was so focused. I had my head down so bad in terms of just getting the doors and growing my local office, that it was so busy and it was all so fast that I didn't have time to look at anything else. It's when I get a little bit of breathing room that I started looking at the different locations. I don't necessarily regret it, but I probably would have thought about it a little bit longer before I need the jump. If I look at myself now, it really comes down to being disciplined and a lot of good habits. Like I said, I say no to more business today than I ever have. I am 100% focused. Property management is my life. If it's not in property management or in my sphere, I'm not interested. I don't have time for it, I don't make time for it, and I'm very blunt with that. I have an extremely tough schedule that I follow. I do a lot of stuff for myself personally, and then that translates over to the business side. I know where I'm going. It's kind of fun to where you'll have other guys or people that'll come in and say, “I got these cool opportunities, I got this, I got this,” I'm like, “Cool, good for you. I hope it works.” Me? I'm not interested. I got my path and I know what I'm doing. Jason: Yeah. I did hit up for opportunities all the time. Different property management there's like, “Hey, we could do this cool thing together.” I’m like, “No, we can't.” Focus is power like with anything. You could be a flood light or you could be a laser and actually cut something out in your life and achieve something. All right. Can we touch on your book a little bit? I read through it. I think there's some interesting ideas in there. I don't know where we should start, but you've got this book, you call it The Doorpreneur: Property Management Beyond the Rent Roll. It's a quick read. I think it's a good read. You share a little bit of your journey and some of the things you've gone through. I think we've done some similar things. I'm going to quote a part of it. It says, “We are the problem and we are the solution.” You were talking about how property management had a bad rep because we're allowing it to. I think that's the case. Everyone who’s heard of me, if they listen to my show at all, talk about the cycle of suck. If you haven't, just google “Property Management Cycle of Suck” and you'll find an old video I did on it. I think that the industry as a whole is that's where they are. It's caught in the cycle of suck. It has a bad reputation because everyone's taking on bad owners, and they're taking on bad properties, and they're not being picky, and they feel all the scarcity. Everybody's trying to do the same stuff that's not working which creates false scarcity in the industry and there's no scarcity in property management. You said that you believe the industry's time has come. What do you see for this industry? You say it's on the brink of change. I feel that, too. I feel like there's a shift going on right now. I'm hoping that DoorGrow is helping to push that forward. What do you see for the future of property management? Tony: Just over the last few years, I would say probably in the last 4-5 years, I will say that you’ve had a part in this in terms of, you're starting to see a lot more people get together and talk about property management, and not just NARPM. I know that’s a big organization in the States, but in order for an industry to really take over, I believe it's got to go beyond just the regulation of the groups that are that are like that. It's exciting to see a lot of that happening, whether if it's groups online or different organizations, all sorts of cool stuff. But I'm also seeing that the opportunities that are becoming present in all these different places are becoming much more attractive to different people. It's like you're seeing the density being built in a lot of different cities—the rise of renting out in this whole generation of millennials—in terms of it being a renter's nation. That is providing a good foundation for a lot of required property managers to come out here and start managing these properties. The tools are getting better. They're not amazing yet, and I'm speaking in terms of technology. Those things are getting better over time. But more and more, I'm seeing the property management is getting away from the old school that started in the business 30, 40, 50 years ago, and you're seeing a new breed of property management come into the picture, which is they’re a lot more professional, they're running real businesses, it's not just a side gig from a realtor, or it's not just this big owner that owns a big portfolio and he decided to manage a few places on the side so he can make a few bucks and pay for him running his own stuff. They're seeing legitimate people, business people coming into the space and making a run at it, and that's what we need. We need professionals coming in and we need professionally-run businesses. More than ever today, I'm seeing and talking to a lot of people that are running greater businesses and it's exciting, because I think the opportunity is huge. But it's also at the same time somewhat limited because I know I've done this long enough. I've been around it my entire life. This business is tough. It is not for everybody. We're going to have the turnover that's going to come through and hopefully the good will stick and make the business better for everybody. Better first impression of the business, better for us working in the industry, being able to grow together, and making it all better together. Jason: Yeah. I think that the way to change the industry is obviously to have healthy businesses. Healthy business owners in this industry, leading the way, and they have to be profitable. I think also there's a huge opportunity right now in that, millennials are the workforce largely. I think a lot of people, they’ve gotten a bad rep. A lot of people think they're lazy, they’re unmotivated, and I find that to be patently false. I think millennials are our new generation of workers that don't want to do menial work. They don't want to do something without meaning. I think this is a huge opportunity for business owners that are not acting like dinosaurs saying, “I'm paying you to do something so just freaking do it.” Those are the dinosaur dictators that think, “Well, I give them money. Why don't they just do everything amazingly?” Millennials want purpose and I think there's an opportunity now for business owners that believe they have a purpose, that there's a greater vision for what they do. You touched on that in your book. I talked quite a bit about that as well. People have heard me say, “I believe good property management can change the world. It can have a significant impact. We’re affecting families. We’re affecting lives.” I could have that impact through my clients, which is what gets me excited about showing up helping property management business owners lead the way and do good work. They can't do that if they're struggling. Tony: Yeah. The biggest aha moment I've had in my career with Ground Floor, my management company, was four years ago. We had an offsite meeting with all my staff. We’re about 50 people with all 3-4 different companies. I was looking at the rent roll, I showed it to everybody on the big screen, and I'm like, “We've got 2000 apartments,” roughly it was right around there, that we're almost full all the time, “and if I take an average, we’ll probably have around 3000-3500 people that live in properties that we take care of. Guys, we matter. You cannot not look at that and how important of a role we play in day-to-day life for close to 4000 people.” I'm like, “That's pretty special.” Like I explained in the book, we’re a part of all sorts of experiences for these people. We've seen deaths, we've seen births, we've seen marriages, we've seen plenty of divorces, we've seen it all. It happens underneath our roofs. Again, I grew up in the business, I've seen it all from a personal standpoint, and now I've seen it all from running a business. There are no ifs or ands about it. It's a special business. Jason: All of those different situations require some activity or involvement with the property manager. I mean, even if it's just maintaining the property and doing some maintenance, it's affecting these families lives, and it's affecting these sometimes challenging moments that they're going through. Those interactions can be positive, helpful interactions, or it can deepen their words, they can cause more pain, and the ripple effect property managers have is huge. Property management is death by a thousand cuts. It also can be a ripple effect of a thousand possible positive interactions on a regular basis. I know property management can be tough. I hear about it all the time. I know how difficult it can be to run a business. I know that. Every entrepreneur knows that. It doesn't get easier the bigger you get, often. It can sometimes get more challenging. But it makes it worth it when you have somebody that comes to you and says, “Hey, you made my life better,” or, “You had an impact,” and those little moments we don't always hear about them, but when they do come through, they do. That’s why we do what we do. Tony: Yeah. I think a lot of property managers will be able to agree with me, that there's an old saying that the phone never rings with good news in our business. If someone’s calling, it's usually something bad on the other line. It’s either a complaint, or an issue, or something. It’s almost like you have to come into the office each day knowing that you may not get a million praises from the outside, and that's why the office environment is sacred for you and your staff, for the people running the business. I just hired a new girl a few weeks ago and I'm very honest and transparent during our interview. I was like, “You're new to this industry and you are going to struggle. It’s going to be really tough. It’s going to test you emotionally. It’s going to test your ability to deal with a million things going on at the same time, it's going to test you in every way possible.” I asked her the other day, she’s going on her third week and she's like, “I knew it was going to be tough, but I didn't think there would be so much that I had to learn,” but the office environment is such a way that we're very much a team, we help each other out, we have each other's backs. If there's a difficult situation, other people step in. You really have to have that environment because it can really help the overall business. If not, it can get in get a little lonely. Jason: Yeah. The turnover in property management businesses regarding staff can be pretty high. I think one way to mitigate that is what you're talking about, it's creating a really positive culture, a safe place within the business, a place in which your team members are allowed to make mistakes, they're allowed to screw up, and they're allowed to figure things out. Otherwise, they start hiding stuff. Tony: And start costing you money. Bad mistake. Jason: I think it's important to realize, a lot of times in any business, the people that are really attacking or really causing you grief, are hurt people. They're hurting on the inside. It's not even really usually about you. We were talking about before the show how I've been really attacked lately in some forums and some groups. I have several people messaging me privately and lots of people that message me like, “Hey Jason, you don’t deserve this, you’ve done a lot for us,” and it's ironic because in property management, we deal with this. Everybody gets these negative reviews. They feel unjust and unfair, they didn’t give the deposit back which rightly so probably, you're being attacked, and these people have nothing better to do than just try to destroy your business. That's just part of being in business, I think. In general, you're always going to have haters. The bigger you get, the bigger the target is on your back. You just have more people that you're dealing with. I definitely got a target. You dealing with 4000 maybe potential constituents connected to your business that you're impacting, all the owners, all the renters, everything, you have a big target, Tony, on your back. Tony: Yeah. It's overwhelming in the best of days. That’s probably one of the, I would say, either the first or the second biggest problem overall arching in this industry is how do you deal with the overwhelm of dealing with so many different things. If we were to count all the different balls that we’re juggling in the area at any given time as an owner even as a property manager, it's a lot. That's why I've gone to the depths that I did with the book in terms of putting the importance on lifestyle, in terms of installing good habits, in terms of being healthy, working out, just simple things because if you're going to go in this industry and you're going to make a run at it, you got to be firing on all cylinders. A big part of that is your body, your relationships at home, your relationships with your kids. You got to go into the office with a clear mindset. If not, it's going to be rough. I've walked in the holes in my office on many days after either having an argument with one of my kids or having an argument with my queen and that's like, “I can't do anything in here. I have zero patience and I just want everybody to stay away from me.” That's not a way to run a business. Jason: That's how I would feel if I'm hungry. That's how I would feel if I didn't get enough sleep the night before. We tend to start externalizing these challenges. That's why even people coming to my program they're like, “Well, I wanted to grow my business, why are you having me focus on some of the silly stuff like drinking water?” I get picked on about some of those things but I know the impact that it's had on my own life to get the basics in place and have that foundation so that you can tackle the world. We have one vehicle in which we approach everything in life and that's our body. Tony: Yeah, absolutely. Jason: Our current ability distinct cognitively, to function, to be able to deal with stress, be able to see objectively, to be able to handle all the stuff that gets thrown out as a business, to be able to see alternatives and ideas, all of it has to do with our brain and being able to function on all four cylinders or however many you might have. Tony: Absolutely. I'm a true believer. I've always been an athletic guy. 2019, I've taken it up a notch and done some other things. Jason: I've noticed. Tony: Yeah. It's funny because 8½ months getting ready for an Ironman, I made more money in that eight months than I probably did in the last two years by just condensing the amount of time that I had and the focus that was required to do it, and to pull it off. I still look back at it and like, “How did I do that?” and I'm still digesting it all because it’s still fairly new, but it's taught me so many lessons that I'm going to be able to take forth with the new stuff that I'm doing. The very first video that I made to get ready for my Ironman training and it was January or February, it's like I'm doing this because I need to become somebody different in order to launch this book, to write this book, to finish this book, and to grow beyond the book. It was amazing. It was a journey like I can't explain Jason: I’ll point out one thing that's very obvious to me because I've seen it in you, I've seen it in a hundreds of entrepreneurs. When we create constraints, when we have constraints, when we're limited in our time or limited in our attention, we innovate. That's when our brain starts to really fire and we get really, really creative. It's the same thing with our team members. If you give them unlimited time to do something and unlimited resources and money to do something, they're going to do it in the most costly, time-sucky way possible. But when you create constraints and having a goal of doing something big like an Ironman, where you're going to put your body to some massive stress, you have to be prepared for that, and you know what it's actually going to take, then it gets really difficult and it creates constraint. I'll point out to everybody. I've seen this in lots and lots of businesses and I've seen in my own life when we have constraints. You don’t notice, you come up with ideas when money get scarce. When you have a team member leave, all of a sudden, you're changing things that they've been doing a status quo forever. A lot of these challenges that we perceive as challenges really are opportunities for us to innovate and to grow and to change. I'm not sure if Tony will make it back here, but I'm sure Tony would love for you guys to reach out. Tony, I'm going to plug you. He's got his book, Doorpreneur, and I recommend you check that out. You can go to doorpreneur.com You can preorder it now. Make sure you get his book. Check it out. I think there's some really great value. It's a quick read, it’s only 125 pages, and I think you'll really enjoy it. He's got some previews of the first four chapters on his site doorpreneur.com and it looks like you'll be able to get it on Amazon and in some other places. We'll go ahead and wrap this up. So if you are property management entrepreneur, and you are wanting to add doors, and you are wanting to get your business in alignment, and you are wanting to create that space for yourself, you feel like you're the hamster on the treadmill, then reach out. You can check us out at doorgrow.com.

02:28 - Chris Dias Introduction Twitter GitHub 02:38 - Erich Gamma Introduction Twitter GitHub 03:38 - Visual Studio Code @VisualStudio [YouTube] Chris Dias: Visual Studio Code @ Build2015 IDE (Integrated Development Environment) Core Inner Loop Opinionated Workflow 06:25 - Task Running Support 09:13 - Cross-Platform 09:58 - Branding and Searchability #vscode UserVoice Site for Visual Studio Code Feature Requests 13:51 - Philosophically, what were the driving factors behind Microsoft releasing a cross-platform tool? 19:10 - Preview => Release Timeline Extensibility 22:04 - Core Features Multicursor Intellisense Debugging Lightweight Environment Project Structure TypeScript Integration 33:13 - Testing Problem Matchers 36:31 - Angular 1 Support 37:29 - Snippets 38:04 - Debugging Support 40:07 - Speed 41:00 - Features and Tooling (Con’t) Peek Find All References 45:40 - Getting the Latest Versions Auto-Update Windows Insider Program 47:13 - Visual Studio Code vs Sublime Text Picks Chris Dias, Erich Gamma and John Papa - Visual Studio Code: A Deep Dive on the Redefined Code Editor for OS X, Linux and Windows (John) Visual Studio Code Connect Link (John) Rob Eisenberg: Getting Started with Aurelia and TypeScript (Ward) Blue Man Group (Katya) ng-vegas (Joe) [YouTube] ng-vegas Channel (Joe) The CodeNewbie Podcast (Chuck) Ask Me Another (Chuck) [YouTube] Getting Started with Angular 2 Developer Preview (Chris) Jonathan Turner: Using TypeScript in Visual Studio Code (Chris) Emmet (Chris) The Computing Universe: A Journey through a Revolution by Tony Hey and Gyuri Pápay (Eric)        

02:28 - Chris Dias Introduction Twitter GitHub 02:38 - Erich Gamma Introduction Twitter GitHub 03:38 - Visual Studio Code @VisualStudio [YouTube] Chris Dias: Visual Studio Code @ Build2015 IDE (Integrated Development Environment) Core Inner Loop Opinionated Workflow 06:25 - Task Running Support 09:13 - Cross-Platform 09:58 - Branding and Searchability #vscode UserVoice Site for Visual Studio Code Feature Requests 13:51 - Philosophically, what were the driving factors behind Microsoft releasing a cross-platform tool? 19:10 - Preview => Release Timeline Extensibility 22:04 - Core Features Multicursor Intellisense Debugging Lightweight Environment Project Structure TypeScript Integration 33:13 - Testing Problem Matchers 36:31 - Angular 1 Support 37:29 - Snippets 38:04 - Debugging Support 40:07 - Speed 41:00 - Features and Tooling (Con’t) Peek Find All References 45:40 - Getting the Latest Versions Auto-Update Windows Insider Program 47:13 - Visual Studio Code vs Sublime Text Picks Chris Dias, Erich Gamma and John Papa - Visual Studio Code: A Deep Dive on the Redefined Code Editor for OS X, Linux and Windows (John) Visual Studio Code Connect Link (John) Rob Eisenberg: Getting Started with Aurelia and TypeScript (Ward) Blue Man Group (Katya) ng-vegas (Joe) [YouTube] ng-vegas Channel (Joe) The CodeNewbie Podcast (Chuck) Ask Me Another (Chuck) [YouTube] Getting Started with Angular 2 Developer Preview (Chris) Jonathan Turner: Using TypeScript in Visual Studio Code (Chris) Emmet (Chris) The Computing Universe: A Journey through a Revolution by Tony Hey and Gyuri Pápay (Eric)        

02:28 - Chris Dias Introduction Twitter GitHub 02:38 - Erich Gamma Introduction Twitter GitHub 03:38 - Visual Studio Code @VisualStudio [YouTube] Chris Dias: Visual Studio Code @ Build2015 IDE (Integrated Development Environment) Core Inner Loop Opinionated Workflow 06:25 - Task Running Support 09:13 - Cross-Platform 09:58 - Branding and Searchability #vscode UserVoice Site for Visual Studio Code Feature Requests 13:51 - Philosophically, what were the driving factors behind Microsoft releasing a cross-platform tool? 19:10 - Preview => Release Timeline Extensibility 22:04 - Core Features Multicursor Intellisense Debugging Lightweight Environment Project Structure TypeScript Integration 33:13 - Testing Problem Matchers 36:31 - Angular 1 Support 37:29 - Snippets 38:04 - Debugging Support 40:07 - Speed 41:00 - Features and Tooling (Con’t) Peek Find All References 45:40 - Getting the Latest Versions Auto-Update Windows Insider Program 47:13 - Visual Studio Code vs Sublime Text Picks Chris Dias, Erich Gamma and John Papa - Visual Studio Code: A Deep Dive on the Redefined Code Editor for OS X, Linux and Windows (John) Visual Studio Code Connect Link (John) Rob Eisenberg: Getting Started with Aurelia and TypeScript (Ward) Blue Man Group (Katya) ng-vegas (Joe) [YouTube] ng-vegas Channel (Joe) The CodeNewbie Podcast (Chuck) Ask Me Another (Chuck) [YouTube] Getting Started with Angular 2 Developer Preview (Chris) Jonathan Turner: Using TypeScript in Visual Studio Code (Chris) Emmet (Chris) The Computing Universe: A Journey through a Revolution by Tony Hey and Gyuri Pápay (Eric)        

Alors que le méga et le téra sont devenus familiers, les plus grands data center sont aux échelles du zetta ou du yottaoctet. Derrière le terme populaire de Big Data, il y aussi de nombreux enjeux scientifiques. 15 pétabytes, soit quelques 3 millions de DVD, c'est ce que produit l'accélérateur de particules LHC en un an de collecte de données. Jim Gray, décrit le Big Data comme une nouvelle vision du monde, un nouveau paradigme pour les sciences. Comment ces capacités de traitement et de stockage des données massives ont-elles changé la vie des laboratoires ? Les biologistes ou les physiciens ont de nouveaux acolytes : les data scientists. Invités Marc Gelgon, professeur à l'Université de Nantes, animateur de la thématique « science des données » au Lina. Jérémie Bourdon, maître de conférences à l'Université de Nantes, chercheur au Lina, Laboratoire d'Informatique Nantes Atlantique, dans une équipe de bio-informatique. Ressources – The Fourth paradigm, Tony Hey, Stewart Tansley, Kristin Tolle, Microsoft Research, 2007.Ouvrage collectif de référence disponible en libre accès sur Internet. Bonne illustration de la manière dont les traitements de données sont devenus des outils centraux dans le réflexions scientifique. – La stratégie Big Data, Thomas Davenport, Pearson, 2014.Ouvrage complet sur les bouleversements économiques du Big Data et les façons d'en tirer profit. – Combien valent vos données ? Quel prix peut-on donner aux informations concernant votre vie privée ? Le Financial Times vous propose un simulateur capable d'en donner une estimation. What is your data worth ? – Un moteur de recherche, méta-moteur qui regroupe les résultats des autres moteurs en les anonymisant.Duckduckgo. – Big data, entreprises et sciences sociales – Usages et partages des données numériques de masse, un colloque en podcast du Collège de France. – tosdr.org : un site qui vous explique les « terms of services », ces contrats que – presque – personne ne lit. Crédits Une émission animée par Pierre-Antoine Rault et Guillaume Mézières.

The season finale! Questions are answered, old friends reunite.  --------------------- SPOLIERS BELOW Joann: Harry Strange episode 216: All Debts are Paid, was written and directed by Tony Sarrecchia. All material is copyright (c) by Tony Sarrecchia and used with his permission. Tony: Hey listeners, Tony Sarrecchia here. First off, thanks to you guys for listening every week and sharing us with your friends. You’re the reason we do this. A couple of things before we let Joann get to the credits. First, thanks to my lovely wife and the woman who is the inspiration and motivation behind all of this. It was her not-so-gentle nudging that got Harry launched in the first place. Second, thanks to the entire talent team. These guys come in 8 Sundays a year and work hard to deliver quality entertainment to you. I want to thank Sylvia Galan for two great seasons of Carmen Strega—she did a great job and we wish her well in her future work. Vanessa Schill our designer/PR wench and Ryan Schill, our web master. They put up with many late night texts to change the web site and write press releases. And of course, you guys. Every review you write, every like we get on FB, every person you share us with just reaffirms that we are doing things right. You’re the connection that makes the circuit complete. Okay—enough of me—time to turn it back to Joann. We will see you on Christmas morning with our second Christmas in the Strangeverse story. And, of course, season three starts in January 2013! Joann:   Featured in tonight’s cast were:    Kellen Stennett Sylvia Galan Dennis Coburn Tisch Parmelee Tricia Groves Emily Jane Ray Saltrelli Parisa Johnston Katherine Claypool Craig Johnston Brian Troxell Julie Ivey Christine Kohl ------------------- To keep with up the latest news and information on everyone's favorite private investigator, visit our Facebook page at facebook.com/harrystrangeradio. Send your questions, comments and suggestions to producer@harrystrange.com    For comments that may included on future shows, call the listener hotline @ 678-379-8669 that’s  678-379-TONY Harry’s opening theme music was written and performed by Lance Haugen and is copyright by Lance Haugen and used with his permission.   Incidental music and character themes were written and performed by Ryan Lessard and are copyright by Ryan Lessard and used with his permission. Contact Ryan at: rlessardmusic@gmail.com.   Incidental music was written and performed by Kevin Macleod and is copyright by Kevin Macleod and used with his permission. Visit incompetech.com/ for more of Kevin’s music.   “Knights” was written and performed by the The Aquards and is copyright by Anthony Aquard and used with his permission. The Aquards are Anthony Aquard, Treven Widmier, and Michael McCourt. Visit TheAquards.com for more of their music.   Our Marketing and PR director is Vanessa Schill. Email Vanessa at producer@harrystrange.com   For the Harry Strange Radio Drama, I am Joann Pruden. Good Night!