Podcast appearances and mentions of saron yitbarek

This is the last episode for 2024. To make it special, it's a supercut of all the unconventional advice from every single guest that was on the show this year - Kent C. Dodds, Jerod Santo, Rob Walling, Adrienne Tacke, David Khourshid, Saron Yitbarek, Rachel Andrew, Katie Fujihara, Lena Reinhard, Miriam Suzanne, Kirupa Chinnathambi, Craig Hewitt, Jennifer Wong, Jason Lengstorf, Michael Kennedy, and Asia Orangio. This turned out so well, that I will be definitely re-visiting the format in the new year. I hope you have a successful and adventure-packed 2025, with plenty of room for career growth. See you next year!

In this episode of the Maintainable Software Podcast, Robby sits down with Saron Yitbarek, founder and CEO of DiscoLink, to explore the challenges of maintaining early-stage software while balancing multiple streams of income. Saron shares her journey from being a solo developer to hiring her first teammate and the lessons learned along the way about code maintainability and business logic.Episode Highlights[00:05:32] Introduction to Saron's Background: Robby and Saron discuss her startup, DiscoLink, and the initial development of its MVP.[00:10:50] The Importance of Context in Code: Saron emphasizes why understanding the business decisions behind code is crucial for maintainability.[00:15:10] Onboarding a New Developer: Saron shares her experience hiring her first developer and how it changed her approach to software maintenance.[00:20:32] Multiple Streams of Income: Saron explains her motivation behind building DiscoLink to help professionals manage different revenue streams.[00:25:40] Transparency Around Money: A candid conversation about developers' fears around charging for their work and how to overcome them.[00:30:45] Ethics and Side Projects: Robby and Saron discuss ethical considerations when working on side projects while employed full-time.[00:35:12] How Podcasting Shaped Saron's Career: Saron talks about how being a podcast host impacted her career growth and networking.Key TakeawaysMaintainability Beyond Code: Saron highlights the importance of documenting not just the code but also the business rationale behind decisions.Onboarding Challenges: Bringing a new developer into a solo-built project requires strong communication, context sharing, and flexible documentation practices.The Power of Multiple Income Streams: Saron's vision with DiscoLink focuses on helping tech professionals build financial security through various revenue channels.Confronting Money Anxiety: Many developers struggle with charging for their work, but transparency and community conversations help break down those barriers.Ethical Side Projects: It's important to consider the ethical implications of using work-learned skills for personal projects.ResourcesSaron Yitbarek on LinkedInSaron Yitbarek on TwitterDiscoLink WebsiteBook Recommendation: Formerly Known as Food by Kristin LawlessLinks:My newsletter: https://themultihyphenate.ck.page/newsletterThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error-tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and other frameworks.It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications.Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Use the code maintainable to get a 10% discount for your first year. Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

In the tech world, developers often find themselves stepping into the realm of design, a space that can feel both unfamiliar and daunting. Recognizing this challenge, Saron Yitbarek has crafted "Not a Designer" Design Bites, a series specifically tailored for developers who find themselves in need of design knowledge. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/codingcatdev/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/codingcatdev/support

One of the things that is a bit taboo to talk about, both in the tech industry and outside of it is money. People just aren't comfortable discussing openly the hard decisions that go into things like seeking funding, investing money into things that save you time, and scaling your own abilities with the help of, you guessed it, cold, hard, cash. Saron Yitbarek, entrepreneur extraordinaire behind CodeNewbie and podcasts such as Command Line Heroes, generously accepted my invitation to chat and talk about all these things, and more. And of course, we talk about Saron's latest project - Big Cash Money 2024, something for folks that want to max out their income beyond just their salary.

Amal & Nick are joined by Saron Yitbarek (developer, podcaster, community leader & serial entrepreneur) to catch up and discuss her latest project: Not A Designer We discuss all the ins & outs of tech entrepreneurship & the challenges of building something new in today's saturated market. Tune in for a behind-the-scenes look at how she does it & get a sneak peek on what's possibly next! (Spoiler Alert: we brain stormed it here)

Amal & Nick are joined by Saron Yitbarek (developer, podcaster, community leader & serial entrepreneur) to catch up and discuss her latest project: Not A Designer We discuss all the ins & outs of tech entrepreneurship & the challenges of building something new in today's saturated market. Tune in for a behind-the-scenes look at how she does it & get a sneak peek on what's possibly next! (Spoiler Alert: we brain stormed it here)

For my 200th episode of Code with Jason, I spoke with Saron Yitbarek, Founder of CodeNewbie and RubyConf Keynote Speaker.  We talk about her beginnings in tech, the founding of CodeNewbie, the power of simply asking for things, how to go about asking for things, how being self-taught still relies upon materials made available by the work of other developers, possible topics for Saron's upcoming keynote at RubyConf, and how to get the most out of your in-person conference experience. NotADesigner.ioSaron.ioSaron Yitbarek on MediumSaron Yitbarek on TwitterSaron Yitbarek on LinkedIn

We are thrilled to announce the third session of our new Incubator Program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply to our eight-week program. We'll help you validate your market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence toward an MVP. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. We look forward to seeing your application in our inbox! Quincy Larson is the founder of freeCodeCamp.org, which helps people learn to code for free by creating thousands of videos, articles, and interactive coding lessons–all freely available to the public. Quincy shares his journey from transitioning from teaching into software development, how freeCodeCamp was born out of his desire to make educational systems more efficient through coding, and discusses the early challenges of bootstrapping the platform, and how it has now grown into a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Quincy and hosts Victoria and Will, discuss the platform's technical architecture, especially their global server distribution and decision to rely on volunteer-led translation efforts rather than machines to ensure both the quality and human touch of their educational content. He also talks about the state of free and low-cost degree programs, the student loan crisis, and the ongoing debate between traditional computer science degrees and coding bootcamps. Free Code Campi (https://www.freecodecamp.org/) Follow Free Code Camp on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/school/free-code-camp/) or X (https://twitter.com/freeCodeCamp). Follow Quincy Larson on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/quincylarson/) or X (https://twitter.com/ossia). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robot Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Quincy Larson, Host of the freeCodeCamp Podcast, Teacher, and Founder of freecodecamp.org, a community of people around the world who are learning to code together. Quincy, thank you for joining us. QUINCY: Yeah, thanks for having me, Will and Victoria. VICTORIA: Yeah, thank you for being here. So, I understand that you made a big shift personally for yourself from California to Texas. How has that been for your family and for, you know, as a founder who is running a nonprofit? QUINCY: Yeah, things are going great. It was a big move. We had some kids, and it was difficult to find, like, a good place to live in California that didn't cost, like, millions of dollars [laughter]. And so, at least in the San Francisco Bay Area, we were living in East Bay. I grew up here in Texas and Oklahoma. And I was like, well, maybe we could go back to the southwest, and so we did that. And we were able to come back and comfortably purchase a home here in Plano, Texas. We were able to find one that was, like, really close to a really good public school system. And so, every morning, I'm able to walk my kids to school. And I'd say that Texas has been a great change from California, where I lived for seven or eight years over there. And I love California. Texas has a lot of great things about it, too. It is a little bit hotter than California. It doesn't quite have California's Mediterranean climate, but it's been great here. I like it. And I would say if people are thinking about moving to Texas from California, there are definitely some really good spots of Texas that I think they'll feel really comfortable in. WILL: That's awesome, yeah. I'm originally from Louisiana. So, you're bringing back, like, memories of me growing up, always going to Texas and stuff. And I know exactly where Plano is, so that's amazing. How has it been with your kids? Because we were talking, and you said your kid recently started school. How's that been? QUINCY: Yeah, so my daughter started school a couple of years ago, and she just turned eight. And my son he's turning six this weekend. He just started kindergarten. We were having him take classes at the YMCA some pre-school. And he went from doing that for the first few hours of the day, and then we'd pick him up and bring him home and eat lunch with him and everything. And now he's got to go to school from, like, 7:00 a.m. to, like, 3:00 p.m. And he's been freaking out, like, "Why is school so long? Oh my goodness, I'm so tired all the time," [laughs]. So, he didn't realize that school would be as involved a process. He was all excited. But now he's complaining about, like, just the sheer length of school. But meanwhile, my wife and I we're just, like, celebrating because we actually have some time around the house where we can get work done without having kids running around causing chaos [laughs]. So yeah, I think he's adapting. He's making friends. We're doing playdates and stuff, and he's having fun. It's just a transition, you know. But it is nice because before, I would walk my daughter to school, and that was a very quick, 10-minute round trip, and then I'd walk my son to school. And that was, like, an hour round trip because we walked all the way to the YMCA. And I would do that to kind of toughen him up and get him walking a lot. It was a huge chunk of time. And now I can just grab both, one [inaudible 4:04] hand in each hand, and walk them to school, and drop them off, and be done with it and get back to work. So, it's definitely nice having both at the same school. VICTORIA: I love the work-life balance and that you were able to find and live somewhere that's affordable and has enough space for your family. And I wonder if we can draw a connection there between achieving that kind of lifestyle and learning to code, and what the mission of freeCodeCamp is for you, and what that means to people and changing careers. QUINCY: Absolutely. So, my background is in teaching. And I was a teacher and a school director at schools here in the U.S. and over in China. And that involved me being on campus, like working directly with my admin staff, with my instructional staff, and working directly with students. So, working remotely was kind of, like, a foreign concept way back in, like, 2010 or so 2011 when I started my transition into working as a software developer. But being able to work remotely has been a real game changer for me. And also, you can imagine, like, being a developer, you can command much larger compensation, and you have a lot more career options than being a teacher or a school director. So, it's given me a lot of agency in what I wanted to do. Even before, you know, starting freeCodeCamp, when I was working as a software developer and doing freelance work and stuff, I was able to do everything remotely. And that just gave me a ton of flexibility. So, the way that I learned to code personally was I wanted to help our school be more efficient. A lot of our teachers, a lot of our admin they were spending all day kind of chained to their desk entering information into computers for compliance reasons, to be able to produce great reports, to be able to produce attendance reports, immigration documents, all those things. And I just thought, like, is there a way that maybe I could automate some of this? And I didn't know anything about programming. I was about 31 years old. I was just sitting at my desk, and I just started kind of, like, Googling around and learning some very basic programming. And with that, over the course of a few months, I was really able to transform how the school ran. And we, like, won an award. And, like, a whole bunch of the students were, like, having a great time because they were spending so much more time with their teachers. And they were like, "Hey..." like, telling all their friends and family to transfer into the school. So, it was a massive success. And I thought, wow, if one person who doesn't even really know that much about programming can effect such a change with just a little bit of programming skills, imagine what I could do if I actually learned to code properly, so [chuckles] I did that. I spent about nine months going to hackathons every weekend, and reading a lot of books, and using a lot of open courses online, like from MIT, from Stanford, and I kind of taught myself to code for free. And then, I was able to get a job as a developer at a mid-size tech startup in California. And from there, I just learned more and more, and it was amazing. And it was an amazing transformation for me personally. And I thought, well, I want to help other people be able to do this because I know so many people out there would like to be working in a field where they have more conversation, a higher degree of control. They get to do creative work instead of, you know, tedious work. As a developer, you're constantly doing new stuff because code is infinitely reproducible. So, you could always just go back to code you've previously written if you needed to solve the same problem again. So, you're always in this kind of learning mindset. You're always in this problem-solving mindset. And it's really thrilling. It's just great, impactful work. So, I wanted to help more people be able to do that, hence starting a bunch of different projects that people didn't care about and then eventually starting a project that people did care about, which is freeCodeCamp. And since then, just kind of leading this project in trying to help as many people as possible learn to code. WILL: So, I was looking at your website. And I didn't even realize this until I was doing more research for the podcast, but you have over 10,000 tutorials, and they're in different categories. I saw you just recently released one on finance, which I actually bookmarked it because I'm going to go through it and look at it. You help more than a million people every day. So, how was it when you first started out? Like, how was, I guess, you could say, the grind? How was it in those early days? QUINCY: I'm a big advocate of, you know, for work-life balance, but, like, I kind of, like, exclude founders from that. I really do think that if you're trying to get something started, you're going to have to work really hard and probably way beyond what would be reasonable for a person who's getting a salary or working at an existing company if you're trying to get things started. So, I mean, it was, like, 100-hour weeks, maybe 120 some weeks [laughs]. I would sleep and just wake up and get to my desk and try to, like, put out fires, fix the server, improve the codebase, respond to learners in the community who had feedback, deal with support issues. Like, I was basically doing everything myself. And gradually, we were able to, like, build out the team over a long period of time. But really, the first few years was me self-financing everything with just my teacher savings. I spent, like, $150,000 of my own money just trying to keep freeCodeCamp going. For the first couple of years, we got tax-exempt status from the IRS. When that finally happened, I was like, great, like, let's go out and see if we can get some people to donate. So, we started asking people who were using freeCodeCamp if they'd be willing to donate $3 a month and eventually $5 a month, and we were able to support the organization through that. Really, it's just like a grassroots donor-supported effort. And then, we've been able to get some grants from Linux Foundation, and From Google, from Microsoft, from a whole lot of other big tech companies, and from some other nonprofits in the space. But mostly, it's just been, like, individual donors donating $5. And if you get enough people doing that, you get, like, a budget where you can actually pay for, you know, we have more than 100 servers around the world serving freeCodeCamp in, like, six different languages. We have, you know, all these other, like, initiatives. Like, we've got Code Radio, where you can go listen to Lo-fi while you're coding. And there are servers all over the world. And you can change the bit rate to suit whatever data you have and everything. Like, we wanted to just offer a whole lot of different services. We have mobile apps now. We've got an iOS and an Android app for freeCodeCamp. And then, of course, we've got the podcasts. We've got four podcasts: one in English, which I host, and then we've got one in Spanish, one in Portuguese, and one in Chinese. VICTORIA: Yeah, I absolutely want to ask you more about your podcasts. But first, I wanted to hear–can you tell me a little more about the decision to be 501(c)(3) or a nonprofit status? And were you always firm in that decision? Do people question it? And what was the real reasoning and commitment to that formation? QUINCY: I guess I would consider myself an idealist. Like, I genuinely believe that most educational endeavors should be, you know, nonprofit. They should be driven by either governments or by charities. I'm always kind of skeptical when there's, like, some late-night TV commercial, like, "Viewer, we'll help you get our degree," and it's from, like, a private for-profit university, something like that. So, I was like, in education...and I don't think everything in society needs to be that way, but I do think, like, education and, to an extent, healthcare these should be led by charities. Like, you know, the Red Cross, or, like, Doctors Without Borders, or churches, you know, own many of the universities, many of the hospital systems in the United States. I think that's a good thing. I think it's a very good thing that it's not just, you know, private profit-maximizing, market incentive-bound organizations that are doing all the stuff in education and in healthcare. I wanted to try to create something that, like, a lot of other people would see and say, "Oh wow, this charity can actually survive. It can sustain itself without raising a bunch of VC, without going public," or any of those things that a for-profit entity would do. And, again, I just want to emphasize, like, I don't think that iPhones should be made [chuckles] by nonprofits or anything like that. I'm just saying, like, for the purpose of actually educating people, the incentives are not necessarily aligned when you're trying to get money from...especially when you're talking about people that 60% of people on earth live off less than $10 a day. Those people should be spending their money on food. They should be spending their money on shelter. They should be spending their money on family. They should not be spending money on online courses, in my humble opinion. Like, online courses should be freely available to those people. So, to some extent, freeCodeCamp, we want to make sure that everybody everywhere in the world has access to first-rate learning resources on math, programming, computer science, regardless of their ability to pay. So, that's kind of, like, the ideal logical [inaudible 12:19], I guess, of freeCodeCamp. We kind of live that. Like, we're really serious. We will never pay, well, anything on freeCodeCamp. We won't account email gate anything. We are, I guess, absolutist in the sense that we want all of freeCodeCamp's learning resources to be free for everyone. Because of that, it made sense to like, incorporate as a 501 (c)(3) public charity. And so, we're tax-exempt. And people who donate to freeCodeCamp they can, you know, deduct it from their U.S. taxes. If a large company or even a small startup...we've had lots of startups like New Relic, like Retool, we've had Postman, Hostinger, a whole lot of different startups and mid-sized tech companies, Pulumi, Appsmith, they've all given us these grants that we can use to develop courses. So, we can often develop courses incorporating those resources. But that's tax-exempt, right? They can deduct that from their U.S. taxes. So, it's a big incentive for other people to partner with us and for people to donate funds to us. And it allows us to have the interests aligned in the sense that only people who have, you know, free cash flow or who have disposable income those are the people that are supporting freeCodeCamp. For the people that are, you know, single parents or that are taking care of their aging relatives, or are already working two jobs, or are completely unemployed and don't have any funds to speak of that are using the public library computer to access freeCodeCamp, right? Or using freeCodeCamp on a $50 prepaid phone from Walmart or something like that, right? Like those people can still use freeCodeCamp, and we can have the people who do have resources subsidize everyone else. WILL: Wow. I absolutely love that because...and I wish freeCodeCamp was around whenever I was in, like, high school and, you know, the early 2000s because we just didn't have the resources because I grew up in a small town in Louisiana. And this could have been so beneficial to that community because, like you said, we didn't have the resources–someone to teach coding there. There was no developers around that town that I was in. So, I really appreciate that you're doing this for everyone. And I know for me even...so, when I reached out to you, I did it because I was excited because I've used freeCodeCamp so many times, so many times to learn just in my journey to become a senior developer. Like, freeCodeCamp was one of the resources that I used because, one, it was free. But it wasn't...I think sometimes you can get free resources, and it's not great quality almost. Like, it's almost like you're more confused than before. But with freeCodeCamp, it was very, very amazing quality. And it was very clear on what I was learning. Honestly, thank you for helping me grow as a developer, just, honestly, thank you for that. QUINCY: Absolutely, Will. I feel honored to have helped you. And, yes, we want to help all the kids who are growing up in rural Louisiana or...I'm from, you know, Oklahoma City, not, like, the biggest, most prosperous city in the United States. Like, I want to help all of my friends who growing up who were eating meals provided by the state school system or my older friends who are on disability. Like, I want to make sure that they have resources, too. And in the process of doing that, it's a privilege to also serve all the working software engineers like you out there who just need, like, a reference resource or, like, oh, I've heard about Bun JS or Tailwind CSS. Or something like, I'm going to watch this three-hour course where I'm going to learn how to do Flutter. Like, freeCodeCamp has a 37-hour Flutter course. So, we've got, like, all these courses on using OpenAI APIs and things like that, too, right? So, it's not just for beginners, but we definitely want to, like, first and foremost, we want to serve people who we're kind of, like, the resource of last resort for, if you want to think of it that way. Like, only freeCodeCamp can help these people. Sure, they can probably use some other free courses on YouTube. And there are lots of other blogs that publish good tutorials and stuff. But freeCodeCamp is like an organized effort, specifically to help those people in need. And just kind of a side benefit of it is that you know, more established, experienced devs like you also get kind of, like, some benefit out of it as well. WILL: Whenever you were a developer, and you decided to start freeCodeCamp, how many years of experience did you have? And how did you overcome impostor syndrome, not only as a developer but as a founder? Because I feel like just overcoming it as a developer is hard, but you were also, you know, like you said, you know, handling everything for freeCodeCamp. So, how did you do that? And kind of tell us about that experience. QUINCY: Yeah. So, I didn't really know what I was doing. I think most founders probably don't know what they're doing. And I think that's totally fine because you can learn while you're doing. And we live in the United States, which is a country that kind of rewards experimentation and does not punish failure as much as a lot of other cultures does. Even if you try really hard, you're going to learn a tremendous amount, and you're going to try your next project. And that's what I did. I tried...I launched several educational, like, open learning resource-type projects, and none of them made any dent at all [laughs] in the proverbial universe. Like, nobody cared. Like, I would go and, like, I'd be talking to people. And I'd be explaining, like, "Oh, this solves this problem that you have." And you could kind of tell, like, people would sign in one time just to be polite, but then they'd never sign in again. So, it was very tricky to get traction. And I read a bunch of books. And I went to a lot of founder-focused meetups in San Francisco Bay Area. I had, like, moved out to San Francisco, specifically to try to, like, kind of make up for my deficit, the fact that I didn't know anybody because I was from Oklahoma City. I didn't know anybody in tech. And I didn't have, like, a fancy, you know, pedigree from, like, Harvard, or Wharton, or something like that, right? Like, I went to, like, a state university, and I studied English, right? And [chuckles] so, I didn't even have, like, a CS degree or anything like that. So, I definitely felt like an impostor. I just had to kind of, like, power through that and be okay with that. And it's something a little bit easier for me to do because, you know, I'm a White guy with glasses and a beard. And, like, nobody's walking up saying, "Are you sure you're a developer?" Or like, "Are you in marketing?" You know, like, the typical kind of, like, slight that they may say to somebody who doesn't necessarily look like me. And so I didn't have to deal with any of that nonsense, but there was still a lot of just self-doubt that I had to power through. And I think that was a big advantage for me. It was just, like, I was kind of, like, at war with myself and my own confidence. In fact, I found the software development community, and especially the open-source community, to be incredibly uplifting and empowering. And, like, they want to see you win. They want you to sit down and build a really cool project over the weekend and in the hackathon and present it. And, you know, they want you to learn. They know that you know, everybody is going to learn at a different rate and that a lot of people are going to get discouraged and leave tech and just go back to working in whatever field they were working in before. And that's totally cool. But I do feel that they're there to support you and to encourage you. And there are lots of different events. There are lots of different communities. I recently listened to the founder of Women Who Code, who was on this very podcast [laughs], Giant Robots Smashing Into Giant Robots, the greatest podcast name of all time. And, you know, there are people out there that are working very hard to make it easier for folks to get into tech. I think that that has been a huge part. Even before freeCodeCamp, you know, there were Harvard professors–Stanford professors putting their entire coursework for free online. You could go to, like, different tech events around California, for example, where I was when I was learning to code. And there'd just be tons of people that were eager to, like, learn more about you and to welcome you. And there would be, you know, recruiters that would talk to you and say, "Well, you may not be ready yet, but, like, let's talk in six months," right? And so, there was kind of, like, that spirit of you're going to get there. It's just going to take a lot of time. Nobody was telling me, "Oh, learning to code is easy," [chuckles] because it's not easy. There were lots of people that were, like, "Learning to code is hard. But you've got this. Just stick with it. If I could be of help, let me know," people who would pair program with me to help me, like, improve my chops, people who would volunteer to, like, look at my projects and give design feedback, all those kinds of things. And I think you're going to find all those things on the web. You're going to find those things in the open-source community. freeCodeCamp has a forum where people volunteer their time and energy to help build one another up and help one another get unstuck on whatever projects they're working on, give feedback on projects. And so, I think, to a large extent, the very giving nature, I almost want to say, like, selfless nature, of the global software developer community that is what saved me. And that's what enabled me to transition into this field, even as a teacher in his 30s. VICTORIA: It's interesting you say that. Because I feel as someone who hires engineers and developers, I love people who have teaching backgrounds because it means they're five-star communicators [laughs]. And I think that you know, in your job, when you're pairing with other developers, or you're talking to clients, in our case, that communicating what you're working on and how you're thinking about something is, like, 50% of the job [laughs]. For freeCodeCamp, I saw you have 40,000 people have found jobs after completing courses on there. I hope you feel like you've really, like, established some success here already. But what's on the horizon? What are you looking forward to in the next six months or six years with freeCodeCamp? QUINCY: Yeah, I'll be happy to answer that. But I want to emphasize what you just said: communication is, like, half the job. That's something that thoughtbot has gotten really early on. And I'll tell you that thoughtbot Playbook was incredibly helpful for me as a software developer and also early on for freeCodeCamp's team. And I think a lot of teams make use of that open resource. So, thank you for continuing to maintain that and kind of drive home that communication really is...like, meetings are essential [chuckles]. And it's not always just, like, leave me alone and let me go back to my cubicle and code. You know, I like to quote the old joke that, you know, weeks of coding can save you hours of meetings because I really do believe that communication is core. So, to answer your question about where freeCodeCamp is headed in terms of what kind of impact we'd like to have, I feel like we're just getting started. I feel like pretty much every Fortune 500 company wants to become a tech company in some way or another. Everybody is pushing things to the software layer because software is infinitely reproducible. It's so much easier to maintain software or fix things in production. Like, you realize, oh, there's a big problem. Like, we don't have to recall all the cars back to the dealerships to go and open up the hood and fix this, you know, mechanical defect. If we're controlling all these things at the software layer, right? We can potentially just deploy a fix and tell people like, "Hey, version update [chuckles], you know, download this security patch," or whatever, right? So, there are so many different things that you can do with software. I feel like the potential growth of the field of software and the number of software developers that the world will ultimately need...currently, we've got maybe 30 or 40 million developers on earth that are professional paid-to-code people. But I think that number is going to increase dramatically over the next 50 years or so. And I'll go ahead and address the elephant in the room [laughs] because pretty much everybody asks me this question like, "Don't you think that, like, tools like large language models like GPT-4 and things are going to obviate the need for so many developers?" And I think they're going to make individual developers more productive. But if you think about what code is, it's really extremely explicit directions for how to do something, whether you're using, you know, machine code, or you're using a scripting language like Python, or you're using English, and you're talking directly to the computer like you would on Star Trek. Essentially, you have to have a really deep understanding of the problem. And you need to know exactly what needs to be done in exactly what sequence. You may not need to manipulate bytecode like you would back in the '70s. But you are going to need to understand the fundamental problems, and you're going to need to be able to address it. So, I'm optimistic that the number of developers is going to continue to grow. The developers are going to continue to command more and more, I guess, respect in society. And they're going to continue to have more and more agency in what they want to do with their careers and have more and more options and, ultimately, be able to command higher compensation, be able to work remotely if they'd like. Developers will continue to be able to ascend through corporate hierarchies and become, you know, vice presidents or even executives like the CEO, right? If you look at a lot of the big tech companies, the CEO is a developer. And I think that that will continue. And the computer science degrees will continue to be extremely valuable. So, what is freeCodeCamp working on now that we think will further help people? Well, we're working on a free four-year computer science degree, a Bachelor in computer science, and there's also an associate in mathematics that we're developing. And those are going to be a progression of 40 university-level courses that have labs and have a substantial block of lectures that you'll watch. And then, we'll also have final examinations and everything. And we're developing that curriculum. We've got one of the courses live, and we're developing the second one, and eventually, we'll have all 40. It'll take till the 2030s. But we're going to have those. And then, once we have some longitudinal data about graduates and their success rates and everything, we are going to apply for the accreditation process, and we're going to get accredited as a university, right? Like, you can go through that process. Not a lot of organizations do that; not a lot of new universities are coming about in the 2020s. But it is something that can be done. And we've done a great deal of research, talked to a bunch of accreditors, talked to a bunch of university admins who go through the accreditation process. We think we can do it. So, again, very long-term goal. But when you're a 501(c)(3) public charity, you don't have to worry about freeCodeCamp getting acquired or all the things that would traditionally happen with, like, a for-profit company. You have a lot more leeway to plan really far. And you've got, like, this really broad mandate in terms of what you want to accomplish. And even if, you know, creating a university degree program in the 2030s would not be a profitable endeavor that, like, a rational shareholder value-maximizing corporation would embark upon, it is the sort of project that, you know, a charity like freeCodeCamp could do. So, we're going to do it. MID-ROLL AD: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don't have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot's Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We'll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. VICTORIA: I think that's great. And, actually, you know, I got my master's in information technology and project management online way back when. So, I really like the availability of modern computer science bachelor's and master's being available at that low price point. And you're able to pursue that with the business structure you put in place. I'm curious to kind of go back to something you said earlier on how widely available it is and how you spread out across all these multiple countries. Were there any technical architecture decisions that you had to make along the way? And how did those decisions end up turning out? QUINCY: Absolutely. So, one of the things we did was we located servers all around the world. We're multi-cloud, and we've got servers in different data centers in, like, Singapore, Europe, Latin America, and we're trying to reduce latency for everybody. Another thing that we've done is, you know, we don't use, like, Google Translate to just translate all our different pages into however many languages are currently available on Google Translate; I think it's, like, more than 100. We actually have a big localization effort that's led primarily by volunteers. We have some staff that oversee some of the translation. And essentially, we have a whole bunch of people working at translate.freecodecamp.org and translating the curriculum, translating the tutorials into major world languages. Most prominently would be Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Portuguese, Ukrainian. Like, all these different world languages, there's, like, a freeCodeCamp version for those, and you can go into the menu, and you can choose it. And it's actually, like, hand-translated by native speakers of that language who are developers. So, that's been another extremely, you know, time-intensive effort by the community. But we believe that, you know, the quality of the translations is really important. And we want that kind of human touch. We don't want kind of weird artifacts and typos that would be associated with machine translation. And we want to make sure that each of the challenges...because they're extremely tersely worded, again, communication is so important. If you go through the freeCodeCamp curriculum, we try to use as few words as absolutely necessary to effectively communicate what the task the learner needs to accomplish is, and we try to, just in time, teach them concepts. We don't want to present them with a big wall of text. Read this 20-page PDF to understand how, you know, CSS, you know, borders work or something like that. No, we're teaching, like, kind of, like, just in time, like, okay, let's write this line of code. Okay, great, the test passed. Let's go to this next one. This test isn't passing. Here is some contextual-specific hints as to why your code is not passing, why you're not able to advance, right? And we do projects [inaudible 30:30] to learn where we break everything down into steps. So, that's a lot of instructions that need to be very carefully translated into these different world languages to truly make freeCodeCamp accessible to everyone, regardless of whether they happen to be fortunate enough to grow up speaking English at a native level, right? I would say that's our main consideration is, like, the localization effort but also just having servers everywhere and doing everything we can to comply with, like, all the different data rules and privacy rules and everything of all these different countries. It's a lot of work, but in my humble opinion, it's worth it. WILL: I had, like, a two-part question because I wanted to loop back around. When you're talking about the free bachelor's program, one, does anything like that exist where you can get a bachelor-level program, and it's free? And then the second part is, how many countries are you in? QUINCY: Yeah, so currently, lots of governments in Europe, for example, will offer free degrees that are kind of subsidized by the state. There may be some other kind of degree equivalent programs that are offered that are subsidized by corporations. For example, if you work at Starbucks, I think you can get a degree from Arizona State University. And that's a great benefit that Starbucks offers to people. Arizona State University, of course, being one of the biggest public universities in the United States in terms of enrollment. As far as free degrees, though, in the United States, there's nothing like that where, like, literally anyone can just go and get a degree for free without needing to enroll, without needing to pay any sort of fees. There are tuition-free programs, but they still charge you fees for, like, taking exams and things like that. What I like to call ultra-low-cost degree providers–there's Western Governors University, and there's University of the People. And both of these are accredited institutions that you can go, and you can get a degree for, you know, $5,000, $10,000, $15,000. And it's a full-blown four-year degree. Now, that is amazing. I applaud those efforts. I've enjoyed talking to the folks at those different schools. I think the next step is to go truly free. There's nothing blocking you at all. You don't have to be banked. You don't have to have a credit card. You don't have to have any money. You can still get this degree. That's what we're chasing. And I think we'll get there, but it's just a lot of work. WILL: So, it's blowing my mind. It's just blowing me away because, like, you know, we talk about the student loan crisis, I would say. The impact if...when—I'm not going to say if—when you do this, the impact that can have on there, have you thought about that? And kind of, if you have, what has been your thoughts around that? QUINCY: Yeah, so there are $1.7 trillion in outstanding student loans in the United States. That's money that individual people, most of whom don't make a ton of money, right? Like, many of those people didn't actually finish the degree that they incurred the debt to pursue. Many of them had to drop out for a variety of different reasons or defer. Maybe they'll eventually finish those degrees. But as you can see from, like, the macroeconomic, educational, like, labor market data, like, having a partial degree doesn't make a big difference in terms of your earning power. You really need to finish the degree to be able to realize the benefits of having spent all that time studying, and a lot of people haven't. So, yes, there are, like, a lot of people out there that went to medical school, for example, and they're working as physicians. And they are going to eventually be able to pay that off because they're doctors, and they're commanding a great compensation, right? And they've got tons of career options. But if you studied English like I did and you incurred a whole lot of student debt, it could take a very long time for you to make enough money as a teacher, or as, like, a grant writer, or working at a newspaper, or something like that. Like, it can take you years to pay it off. And, in the meantime, it's just continuing to accumulate interest in your, you know, you might be a very diligent person who pays their student loan bill every single month, and yet, you could see that amount, the total amount that you owe continuing to grow despite this. That's just the nature of the time value of money and the nature of debt. And I thank my lucky stars that I went to school back in, like, 2000. Like, my tuition was $1,000 a semester, right? I mean, it's incredible. But that was, like, at a state school, like, a public university in the middle of Oklahoma. And it's not, like, a university you've heard of. It's basically, like, the cheapest possible option. I think community colleges can make a huge dent. I always implore people to think more about community colleges. I've talked with so many people on the freeCodeCamp podcast who were able to leverage community colleges and then transition into a, you know, research university, like a state school, and finish up their degree there. But they saved, like, basically half their money because they were paying almost nothing to attend the community college. And in California especially, the community colleges are just ridiculously worth it. Like, you're paying a few hundred dollars a course. I mean, it's just incredible value. So, I think the community college system is going to play a big role. But my hope is that, you know, freeCodeCamp can thrive. And it'll take us years for people to realize because if you go on, like, Google Ads and you try to run a Google Ad for, like, any sort of educational-related topic, anything related to higher education, it's, like, hundreds of dollars per click because there are all these for-profit universities that make a tremendous amount of money from getting people who just came back from serving in the military and getting, like, huge chunks of their GI Bill, or getting, like, all these federal subsidies, any number of things. Or basically just tricking families into paying huge amounts of money when they could have attended a much more sensible public university, you know, a private nonprofit university that doesn't charge an arm and a leg. So, I think that we are going to have an impact. I just want to say that I don't think that this is a panacea. It's going to take many years for freeCodeCamp to be adopted by a whole lot of people. It will take a long time for employers to look at the freeCodeCamp degree and say, "Oh, this is comparable to a computer science degree from..." say, Ohio State, or UT Austin, or something like that, right? Like, it's going to be a long time before we can get that level of buy-in. I don't want anybody listening to say, "Oh, I'd love to get a computer science degree. I'm just going to hold out and get the degree from freeCodeCamp." Like, my humble advice would be: go to a community college, then go to a state school. Get that four-year computer science degree. It is worth its weight in gold. But you don't want to accumulate a lot of debt. Just try to like, minimize your debt in the meantime. And, hopefully, over time, you know, the free model will prove out, and it'll just be a whole bunch of alumni supporting freeCodeCamp. And that's the dream is that, like, you know, Michael Bloomberg gave a billion dollars to Johns Hopkins University, a billion dollars. Like, Johns Hopkins never needs to charge tuition again with a billion dollars. They can just basically operate their institution off the interest from that, right? And lots of institutions...like, Harvard has, I don't know, like, 60-plus billion dollars in their endowment, right? So, the idea would be freeCodeCamp continues to get this, you know, huge alumni network of people who are doing great and who went to freeCodeCamp and who basically donate back in. And then, we can essentially have the deep pockets subsidizing everybody else who's just at the beginning of their careers who don't have a lot of earning power. You know, when I was a teenager, when I was in my 20s, I worked at convenience stores. I worked at Taco Bell. I did all kinds of, like, literally showing up at 6:00 a.m. to mop the grocery store-type jobs, right? And that is not a path to being able to afford an education in 2023. University tuition is out of control. It's, like, ridiculously high. It's grown way faster than inflation for decades. So, what can we do to alleviate that pressure? In my humble opinion, we just need to come up with free options and support ultra-low-cost options that are already out there. VICTORIA: I was going to ask, but you might have already answered this question somewhat. But I get this question a lot for people who are interested in getting into tech, whether they should get a computer science degree or go to a bootcamp. And I think you've mentioned all the positive things about getting a degree. I'm curious if, in your degree program, you would also tailor it more to what people might expect in a modern tech market and industry in their first job. QUINCY: Yeah. So, the way that we're developing our degree program is we essentially did, like, an analysis of the top 20 computer science programs in the United States: Carnegie Mellon, Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, all those schools that you would think of as being, like, really good computer science programs. And we basically drew a best-fit line through all their course offerings and looked at all their textbooks and everything that they cover. And, essentially, we're teaching a composite of those top 20 programs. Now, there are some things that, surprisingly, those programs don't offer, such as a course on ethics. It's something like 13% of those degree programs require an ethics course. And I think every developer should take a developer ethics course, or at least some sort of philosophy course to, like, understand what does it mean to be a good person? [laughs] Like, what is, you know, an anti-pattern? What is Blackhat user experiences? [laughs] I'm like, when should I, like, raise my hand during a meeting to say like, "Hey, should we really be doing this?" You know. So, ethics–security courses–I was surprised that not very many of those degree programs offer a course in information security, which I believe should be required. So, I'm kind of editorializing a little bit on top of what the composite says. But I feel very strongly that, you know, our degree program needs to have those courses. But in general, it's just everything that everybody else is teaching. And yes, like, a coding bootcamp...I've written a lot about coding bootcamps. I wrote, like, a Coding Bootcamp Handbook, which you can just Google, like, "Coding bootcamp book" or something like that, probably then you can find it. But, essentially like, those programs are usually private. Even if it's at a big, public university, it's often run by a big, private for-profit bootcamp chain. I don't want to say, like, all bootcamps are a bad deal, but buyer beware [laughs]. Frankly, I don't think that you can learn everything you need to know to be a software engineer within the compressed timelines that a lot of those bootcamps are operating under. There's a reason it takes four years to get a computer science degree because: there's a tremendous amount of math, programming, computer science, engineering knowledge that you need to cultivate. And you can absolutely get a developer job without a computer science degree. I don't have a computer science degree [chuckles], and I worked as a software engineer, right? And I know plenty of people who are doing that that didn't even go to college, right? People who were truckers or people who were doing construction work who just sat down and hit the books really hard and came out the other side being able to work as a software developer. But it is going to be vastly easier for you if you do have a computer science degree. Now, if you're in your 30s, if you've got kids, if you've got a whole lot of other obligations, should you go back to school? Maybe not. And so, it's not cut and dry, like, oh, just drop whatever you're doing and go back to...The situation is going to be nuanced. If you've already got a job working as a developer, should you go back and get a CS degree? Probably not. Maybe you can get your employer to pay for you to go to, like, a CS master's program, for example. There are a lot of really good online master's degree programs. Like, Georgia Tech has a master's in computer science that is very affordable, and it's very good. Georgia Tech is one of the best computer science programs in the United States. So, definitely, like, everybody's situation is going to be different. And there's no blanket advice. I would just be very wary of, like, anybody who's talking to you who wants your money [laughs]. freeCodeCamp will never want your money for anything. Like, we would love to have your donation long after you're a successful developer. You turn around and, like, send the elevator back down by donating to freeCodeCamp. But just be skeptical and, like, do your research and don't buy into, like, the marketing speak about, like, being able to get a job immediately. "Oh, it's easy. Anybody can learn to code." Like, I do believe any sufficiently motivated person can learn to code. But I also believe that it's a process that can take years, especially if you're doing the safe thing and continuing to work your day job while you learn these skills over a much longer period of time. I don't believe learning in a compressed kind of bootcamp...like, if you think about, you know, bootcamp in the military, like, this is, like, you're getting shipped away, and you're doing nothing but, like, learning these skills and everything like that. And I don't think that that's right for programming, personally [laughs]. I think there's a reason why many of these programs have gone from 9 weeks to 12 weeks to 6 months. Some of them might be, like, an entire year now. It's because it's them kind of admitting that, like, oh, there's quite a bit to learn here, and it's going to take some time. And there's diminishing returns to learning a whole bunch of hours in a day. I think you'll make much better gains studying programming 1 hour a day for 365 days than you'll make studying, you know, 8 hours a day for, like, two months or something like that if that makes sense. I'm not sure if the math works out there. But my point is, it's totally fine, and it's actually quite optimal to just work your day job, take care of your kids, spend time with your parents, you know, do all those things, hang out with friends and have a social life, all those things in addition to just having programming be one of those things you're working on in the background with your mornings or your evenings. WILL: Tell us a little bit about your podcast. Yeah, tell us kind of what's the purpose of it and just the history of it. QUINCY: Yeah. Well, I learned from the best. So, I'm a longtime listener of this podcast, of course. My friend, Saron Yitbarek, hosts CodeNewbie, which is an excellent podcast, the Changelog, which is an open-source podcast. I've had a great time interviewing the Changelog hosts and being on their show several times. So, I basically just learned as much as I could, and then I just went out and started interviewing people. And so, I've interviewed a lot of devs. I've interviewed people that are, like, learning to code driving Uber. I've interviewed the founder of Stack Overflow [chuckles], Jeff Atwood. I'm going to interview the founder of Trello in a few weeks when I'm back out in New York City. And I do my interviews in person. I just have my mobile studio. When I'm in San Francisco–when I'm in New York, I just go around and do a bunch of interviews and kind of bank them, and then I edit them myself and publish them. And the goal is just to give people exposure to developers. What are developers thinking? What are developers talking about? What do developers care about? And I try to hit, like, a very broad range of developers, try to talk to as many women as possible and, you know, striving for, like, 50% representation or better on the podcast. And I talk to a lot of people from different countries, although that's a little harder to do when you're recording in person. I may break down and do some over Zencastr, which is a tool we used in the past. I just like the spontaneity and the fun of meeting with people in person. But yeah, it's just like, if you are looking for, like, long-form, some of these are, like, two-and-a-half-hour long discussions, where we really delve into people's backstory and, like, what inspired them to become a developer, what they're learning along the way, how they feel about different aspects of software development. Like, for example, earlier, Will, you mentioned impostor syndrome, which is something I think virtually everybody struggles with in some capacity, you know, the freeCodeCamp podcast, tune in [chuckles] and subscribe. And if you have any feedback for me, I'd love to hear it. I'm still learning. I'm doing my best as a podcast host. And I'm constantly learning about tech as it evolves, as new tools come out, as new practices are pioneered. There's entire new technologies, like large language models, that actually work. And, I mean, we've had those since, like, the '60s, like, language models and stuff, but, like, only recently have they become incredibly impressive, exploring these tools and exploring a lot of the people behind them. VICTORIA: Okay, great. Do you have any questions for me or Will? QUINCY: Yeah. What inspired you all to get involved in tech, in...I don't know if somebody...did somebody at thoughtbot actually approach you and say, "Hey, we want you to run this"? Or was it something where like, "I'd love to run this"? Like, because podcasting is not easy. You're putting yourself out there. You're saying things that are recorded forever [laughs]. And so, if you say something really naive or silly or something like that, that's kind of always there, right? It takes a certain amount of bravery to do this. What got you into hosting this podcast? VICTORIA: For me, I mean, if I go way back before getting into tech, my mom she got her undergraduate degree in horticulture to become a florist, and then realized she couldn't make any money off that and went back to school for computer science. And so, she taught me how to use a computer really early on. And when I was in school, I had started in architecture, and then I wanted to change into business intelligence. But I didn't want to apply to the business school, so I got a degree in economics and a job at the IT help desk. And then from there, I was able to kind of transition into tech as a teacher, which was oddly enough...my first job in tech was training a 400-person program how to do, like, version management, and peer reviews [laughs], and timekeeping. And the reason I got the job is a friend from rock climbing introduced me, and he's like, they're like, "Oh, well, you train people how to rock climb. You can train people how to, like, do this stuff." [laughs] I'm like, oh, okay, that sounds great. But anyways, I worked my way up into project management and ended up getting my masters in IT. And when I came to thoughtbot, I had just moved to California, and I wanted to rebuild my network. I had a big network in D.C., organizing meetups and DevOps D.C., Women Who Code, teaching people, and communicating. And I ran a very small podcast there with a friend. So, when I joined thoughtbot, a podcast was a great way to just meet different people, expand my network, give people something to talk to me about when I go to events [laughs] that's not just, like, let me sell you some DevOps work. For me, it's been really fun to just reach out to people that we admire in the community and hear their story, and a little bit about them, and what advice they have for themselves or for other people. And, usually, that ends up benefiting me as well. So, it's been very fun for me. QUINCY: So, your less conventional path into tech combined with your own experience doing podcasting, it sounds like you were a natural choice for hosting a podcast. VICTORIA: Right. And I think I said before we started the show I didn't realize that it was such a well-loved and long-running podcast [laughs] [inaudible 49:01]. But I think we've really come into our own a little bit with hosting, and it's been super fun to work with Will and Chad on it as well. QUINCY: Awesome. And, Will, what's your story, man? How did you get onto the coveted Giant Robots Smashing into Giant Robots podcast? WILL: I actually went to college for sports medicine, and I was on track to go to med school, but my senior year...which I wish I would have had this conversation with myself a lot earlier, didn't have to do the hard work that I did at undergraduate. But my senior year, I was like, why am I really going to med school? And, honestly, it was more for the money, for the...yeah, more for the money. I just wanted to get paid a lot of money. I was like, yeah, that's not going to sustain me. I need to just pivot. So, I pivoted–started working at some nonprofits. And I ended up losing my job and got another job at Buckle, the clothing store, which was not a great fit for me. It helped me provide, but that's just not who I am. I'm not a fashion icon [laughs]. And then I changed to a travel agency insurance company, which it paid the bills. I wasn't passionate about it at all, and it paid the bills. And I was still struggling from losing my job. It was the first time that I lost my job. And my spouse came to me one day and is like, "All right, we're going to have the serious talk." And we almost flipped roles because that's usually who I am. I'm like, "All right, let's have a real talk. Let's get down to it." But I was just in a bad place. And she was like, "All right, we have to change because we can't keep going down this path." So, she was like, "If you had a choice to do anything, what would you want to do?" And I was like, "Well, probably something with computers and coding because I never had that opportunity when I was growing up because of the small town." And she looked at me, and she's like, "Go sign up right now." And I was like, okay, I'm going to sign up. When you mentioned that you made a transition in your 30s, I was around my 30s when I made the transition into coding. And so, it was a big transition. It was a big pivot for me because I'm having to learn, almost like I'm in college again, which was eight years ago. And so, it was just tough, and it wasn't new. So, that's how I got into coding. How I got on the podcast: I think I was talking to Chad and my direct report. I was just talking to them about challenging myself, and so it was multiple things. But, like, writing blog posts that was actually very challenging to me. I still don't like to write. It's not my favorite thing. Give me math or something like that or science; that's where I feel at home. But whenever, you know, you talk about writing and stuff, I can do it, and I'm decent at it. But it's not something that I feel comfortable in. The same thing with the podcast. The reason why I got on here is because I wanted to get out of my comfort zone and I wanted to grow. And I also wanted to get a chance to talk to people who's making a difference–who's impacting the world. So, like, this conversation today is like, yes, this is why I wanted to be a part of this podcast. So yeah, that's how I got started in tech and on the podcast. QUINCY: Awesome, Will. I'm thrilled that you went ahead and persevered and got into tech. It doesn't sound like it was a straight line, and it rarely is for people. But I'm always excited to meet somebody who learned to code in their 30s who stuck with it and is prospering as a result. So, congratulations to you. WILL: Thank you. VICTORIA: I'm still learning. I haven't quite got [inaudible 52:42] "Hello, worlds," multiple times [laughs]. But I don't really code every day for my job. I just kind of need to know what stuff is to be able to talk to people and in that way as a managing director. So, I appreciate Will bringing that backstory to this episode in particular. What else? Any other final takeaway that you'd like to leave our listeners with? QUINCY: I just want to thank you all for continuing to host this podcast, thoughtbot for operating the excellent Playbook, which, for anybody listening who is unfamiliar with, you should check it out. Again, it's just chock full of institutional wisdom accumulated over the years. And I hope everybody out there who's thinking about taking the plunge and learning coding or software development, or even, like, a semi-technical area of being in the software development process of learning visual design, learning how to do user experience research, any number of the different roles in tech, I hope you'll go for it. And I hope you will be as undaunted as you can. And just know that freeCodeCamp and the freeCodeCamp community we are in your corner. If you need to learn something, there's a very good chance that we have some tutorials written by thoughtful teachers who want people like you to come forward and like, read these resources and use it. There's a saying: like, the thing that programmers want the most is to have their code running in production somewhere. And, as a teacher, the thing you want the most is for you to have students, for you to have learning resources out there that are making a positive difference. So, again, I just count my blessings every day that I'm able to be involved in this community. I hope anyone listening who wants to transition into tech or to become even more technical gets involved in the freeCodeCamp community as well. We welcome you. WILL: Are there any opportunities? I know we talked about donations. So, for one, where can they go if they want to donate? And then also, like, you know, if developers want to get to be a part of the open-source network you have, is that possible? And how can they do that? QUINCY: Absolutely. So, if you want to donate to freeCodeCamp, just go to donate.freecodecamp.org. And you can become, like, a $5 a month donor, if you'd like. If you want to give a larger amount, I've got this article; just Google "How to Donate to freeCodeCamp." And I've written this detailed guide to, like, all the different ways like mailing checks. We had a gentleman who passed away and left a whole lot of money for freeCodeCamp in his will. So, those kinds of legacy gifts are definitely something. We've had people donate stock, like, any number of different things. I will bend over backwards to make sure that we can receive your donation, and we can give you a tax receipt so you can deduct it from your taxes as well if you'd like. And then, for contributing to freeCodeCamp, of course, we're an open-source project, and we welcome your code contributions. We have spent a great deal of time trying to make freeCodeCamp as hospitable as possible for both new developers who want to get involved and more senior developers who just want to do some, like, 20%-time type contributing to open-source projects: contribute.freecodecamp.org. So, again, donate.freecodecamp.org and contribute.freecodecamp.org. Those will take you where you need to go. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much again, Quincy, for joining us. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Quincy Larson.

Nadia Odunayo is the Founder and CEO of The StoryGraph, a new website and app for avid book readers because life's too short for a book you're not in the mood for. The StoryGraph helps you track your reading and choose your next book based on your mood, favorite topics, and themes. Victoria talks to Nadia about coming up with a product based on the concept of mood, what you're in the mood for to read, i.e., this book made me feel this way. How do I find a book that makes me feel similar? They also talk about keeping yourself open to feedback, the ability to flow and change direction, and developing a reviewing system that keeps biases in check. StoryGraph (https://thestorygraph.com/) Follow StoryGraph on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-storygraph-limited/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/the.storygraph/), or Twitter (https://twitter.com/thestorygraph). Follow Nadia Odunayo on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nodunayo/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/nodunayo). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Nadia Odunayo, Founder and CEO of StoryGraph, a new website and app for avid book readers because life's too short for a book you're not in the mood for. StoryGraph helps you track your reading and choose your next book based on your mood and your favorite topics and themes. Nadia, thank you for joining me. NADIA: Thank you for having me. VICTORIA: And you are a repeat guest at Giant Robots. But for those who missed that episode, tell me a little bit about your journey. And how did this all get started? NADIA: Okay. Yeah, so that first time was in 2015, and that was not too long after I had just got into tech. I did a bootcamp in London in 2014, Makers Academy, and that's where I learned to code. My degree was in philosophy, politics, and economics, so rather different. I worked at Pivotal for about a year and a half after I graduated from Makers Academy. And during my time at Pivotal, I got into conference speaking, and my first talk was around game theory. So I took my favorite topic in economics, game theory, and I combined that with distributed systems because that's what I was working on at the time in Pivotal on their Cloud Foundry PaaS. I think I gave it at RailsConf, and I think someone there recommended me to Giant Robots. And so Ben Orenstein interviewed me, and it was all about different types of conference talks and that kind of thing. So after Pivotal, I left and started a hybrid kind of consultancy/product company with a colleague, did that for about a year, left that, worked for about a year with my friend, Saron Yitbarek, on her company CodeNewbie. And then, when that partnership ended, I essentially had five years of runway from money that I got from the company that I started after Pivotal because we did some consulting with a bank. I'd always been entrepreneurial. I'd been doing various entrepreneurial things since secondary school, actually, high school. It was time for me to just have time on my side projects. And so I started hacking away on one of my side projects at the beginning of 2019 in January, and I haven't stopped since. That's what the StoryGraph has developed into. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And yes, I saw that the very early stages of StoryGraph started as a creative writing e-publication. Is that right? NADIA: So what happened was when I was at university, I started a creative writing e-publication, came up with the name The StoryGraph. Because we had won or we were going for some grant funding or something like that, I set up a corporate entity. And when I stopped working on that e-publication, I remember my mom saying to me, "Don't shut down the entity. I really like the name. I feel like you'll use it for something," that was in 2012. And so fast forward to 2019, and the side project that I was working on was called Read Lists. And it was very specifically focused on tracking and sharing progress through reading lists on a dashboard. But when I was doing customer research, and the scope of the project grew, Read Lists didn't fit anymore. And that's when I realized, oh, I can use The StoryGraph thing again. And so it's basically had two different lives or two different forms, the StoryGraph company. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. And I'm reading about StoryGraph and how it's an Amazon-free alternative to Goodreads. Can you talk a little bit more about the product and why people would want to use it? NADIA: So, as I said, it started life as a very specific focused side project. And I just had so much fun working on it and working in the book space. I'd always been a reader since I was a kid such that I said to myself, I need to find a way to make me building a books product a full-time thing. And so that's when customer research came in because the only way that you're going to make sure that you don't build something that people don't want is by talking to people. As I was doing customer research and figuring out, are there pain points amongst readers, people who track their reading? What would happen was the pain points that came up drove me towards building a more fully fledged reading, tracking, and recommendations product. It actually started as a very focused recommendations product. And then, we got to the point where we needed to build more around it for it to be a compelling product. And as it was growing, we never advertised ourselves as a Goodreads alternative or as an Amazon-free alternative to what was out there. But that was clearly a pain point in the market. There were tweets about us saying, "Finally a Goodreads alternative. It's small; it's independent; it's Amazon-free. And so thousands and thousands, hundreds of thousands of people have come to us because of that. VICTORIA: Wow. NADIA: And so it got to the point...mainly when we launched our payment plan, and we were trying to figure out the reasons why people were pre-ordering the plan, it was at that point where we decided to lean into the Amazon-free Goodreads alternative because that was what the market wanted. VICTORIA: Was that surprising for you? Or were there other things that came out of your research on your marketplace that kind of were different than what you thought it would be going in? NADIA: I think the most interesting thing about the product development journey was that I at least originally felt like I was building a product that wasn't for me. So what I mean by that is in my earliest rounds of research, what I was finding was that people still didn't think that they had one place to get consistently good book recommendations. And so then I started to explore, well, how do you even give somebody consistently good book recommendations? And one of the factors that kept on coming up was this concept of mood, what you're in the mood for. This book made me feel this way. How do I find a book that makes me feel similar? And so it got to the point where I said to myself, oh wow, I'm building a product for mood readers right now; that seems to be the gap, that seems to be the thing that nothing out there yet had properly attacked. And I had never considered myself a mood reader. I just thought I'm a planner. I'm an organized person. I typically decide what book I want to read, and then I read it. And so there was a point where I was concerned, and I thought, wait, am I now building something that is not for me? But then, as I started to work and do more research and talk to more and more people and thinking about my reading experiences, I developed the hypothesis or the viewpoint rather that I think everybody's a mood reader; it's just the scale. Because there are probably some books that I may have rated lowly in the past that if I had read it in a different frame of mind, or at a different time in my life, different circumstance, it probably would have resonated with me a lot more. Now, that's not to say that's true for every single book. There are some books that are just not going to work for you, no matter what. But I do think we're all on the scale of mood reading. And sometimes we say a book is a bad book, but we just read it at not the right time. And so I think the most surprising thing for me is going on that journey of realizing that, oh, I am a mood reader too. VICTORIA: [laughs] NADIA: And I ended up building an app that's a lot less focused on just the pure ratings. I was someone who, on Goodreads, if it had less than four stars, I'm not interested. And the ethos of the product is more about, well, hang on; these ratings are very subjective. And someone else's two, three-star could be your next five-star. What are the factors that really matter? Do you want something dark, adventurous? Are you looking for something funny, light? And then what kind of topics do you want to discover? And then it doesn't matter if the five people before you thought it was average; you might think it's excellent. VICTORIA: Yeah, it reminds me thinking about how bias can come in with authors and writing as well. So a simple five-star system might be more susceptible to bias against different genders or different types of names. Whereas if you have more complex numbers or complex rating systems, it might be easier to have different types of authors stand out in a different way. NADIA: That actually relates to what was going through my mind when I was developing the reviewing system on StoryGraph. You can just, if you want, leave your star rating and say no more, but the star rating is lower down on the page. And up front, we say this book would be great for someone who's in the mood for something...and then you've got checkboxes. And how would you rate the pace of the book? And if it's a fiction book, we ask you, "Are the characters lovable?" Is there a flawed narrator? Is it plot-driven or character-driven?" Questions like that because the thinking is it doesn't matter whether you are going to give the book two stars in your own personal star rating. You can still help someone else find a book that's good for them because they will be looking at the summary on the StoryGraph book page, and they'll go, "Oh wow, 80% of people said it's lovable. There's a diverse range of characters, and it's funny. So the topics fit things I'm interested in, so I care less about the average rating being like 3.5 because everything else seems perfect. Let me see for myself." And actually, we've also had a lot of feedback from people saying that "Oh, normally, I never know how to review a book or what to say. And this system has really helped me, almost give me prompts to get started about explaining the book, reviewing it for other people to help them decide if it's for them. So that's great." VICTORIA: That makes sense to me because I read a lot of books, maybe not as much as I would like to recently. But not all books that I love I can easily recommend to friends, but it's hard for me to say why. [laughs] You know, like, "This is a very complicated book." So I love it. I'll have to check it out later. It's been four years since you've been full-time or since 2019, almost five then. NADIA: Yes. VICTORIA: If you could travel back in time to when you first started to make this a full-time role, what advice would you give yourself now, having all of this foresight? NADIA: Have patience, trust the process because I can sometimes be impatient with, ah, I want this to happen now. I want this to pick up now. I want these features done now. I'm a solo dev on the project. I started it solo. I have a co-founder now, but I'm still the solo dev. And there were so many things, especially now that we've got a much larger user base, that people complained about or say is not quite right. And that can be really tough to just have to keep hearing when you're like, I know, but I don't have the resource to fix it right now or to improve it. But I think one of the things is, yeah, having faith in the process. Keep going through the cycles of listening to the customers, prioritizing the work, getting the work done, getting the feedback, and just keep going through that loop. And the product will keep getting better. Because sometimes it can feel, particularly in the first year when I was so low, you sometimes have moments of doubt. Or if a customer research round doesn't go super well, you start to wonder, is this only a nice-to-have? And is this going to go anywhere? And so that's one piece of advice. And I think the other one is knowing that there are several right paths because I think sometimes I would agonize over I want to do the right thing. I want to make sure I make the right choice right now. And, I mean, there are some things that are not good to do. You want to make sure that you're setting up your customer interviews in a non-leading way. You want to make sure that there are certain standards in the product in terms of the technical side and all that kind of stuff, so there's that. But I think it's understanding that you kind of just have to make a decision. And if you set yourself up to be able to be adaptive and responsive to change, then you'll be fine. Because you can always change course if the response you're getting back or the data you're getting back is going in the wrong direction. VICTORIA: I love that. And I want to pull on that thread about being open to changing your mind. I think that many founders start the company because they're so excited about this idea and this problem that they found. But how do you keep yourself open to feedback and keeping that ability to flow and to change direction? NADIA: I mean, I didn't set out to build a Goodreads alternative, and here I am. VICTORIA: [laughs] NADIA: I just wanted to build this specific side project or this specific...it was a companion app, in fact. Like, the first version of the thing I built, the first thing you had to do was sign in and connect your Goodreads account so that we could pull in your shelves and start creating the dashboards. So as a solo bootstrapping founder, building a Goodreads alternative was not something that I thought was going to lead to success. But through years of experience, and just hearing other people's stories, and research, I just learned that it's such a hard space just running a startup in general, and 90% of startups fail. And I just said to myself that, okay, the only way I can kind of survive for longer is if I am open to feedback, I'm open to change course, I'm patient, and I trust the process. These are the things I can do to just increase my chances of success. And so that's why I kind of feel it's imperative if you want to go down this route and you want to be successful, it's vital that you're open to completely changing the product, completely changing your direction, completely going back on a decision. You'll either lose customers or you'll run out of money, whatever it is. And so yeah, you've got to just basically be quite ruthless in the things that are just going to minimize your chances of failing. VICTORIA: That makes sense. And now, I have a two-part question for you. What's the wind in your sails? Like, the thing that keeps you going and keeps you motivated to keep working on this? And then, conversely, what's kind of holding you back? What are the obstacles and challenges that you're facing? NADIA: I think this kind of role...so I'm like founder, CEO, and developer. In general, I think I thrive under pressure and pushing myself, and trying to always be better and improve. So I'm always trying to be like, how can I improve my productivity? Or how can I run the company better? All these kinds of things. So I feel like I'm getting to explore maximizing my full potential as someone in the world of work through doing this. So that just intrinsically is motivating to me. I love books, and I love reading. I think it's such an amazing hobby. And the fact that I get to make other readers happy is awesome. So even just as the product has grown, the messages that we get about if someone got a perfect recommendation from StoryGraph, or they hadn't read for years, and now an easy form of, you know, what are you in the mood for? Check a few boxes, and we'll show you some books that fit, whatever it is. That's just so...it's so awesome just to be able to enhance readers' lives that way in terms of the things they're reading and getting them excited about reading again or keeping them excited. So those are the things that keep me going, both the personal nature of enjoying my work and enjoying trying to be the best founder and CEO that I can and building a great product. It's always great when you build something, and people just enjoy using it and like using it. So I'm always incentivized to keep making the product better, the experience better. I'm currently mid a redesign. And I'm just so excited to get it out because it's going to touch on a lot of repeated pain points that we've been having for years. And I just can't wait for everyone to see it and see that we've listened to them. And we're making progress still like three and a bit years on since we launched out of beta. What's tough? Previously, what's been tough is navigating, remaining independent, and bootstrapped with just personally trying to make money to just live my life. So I had five years of runway. And it was this tricky situation about when I had a couple of years left, I'm thinking, wow, I really like doing this, but I'm going to need to start earning money soon. But I also don't want to get investment. I don't want to stop doing this. I can't stop doing this. We've got hundreds of thousands of customers. And so kind of trying to balance my personal needs and life situations with the work I've been doing because I've been working so hard on it for so long that in the last couple of years, it's gotten to a point where it's like, how do I craft the life I want out of a product that is very not set up to be an indie bootstrapped product? [laughs] Typically, you want to do a B2B. You want to start earning money from your product as early as possible. And I feel like I've landed in a product that's typically funded, VC-backed, that kind of thing. So kind of navigating that has been a fun challenge. There's not been anything that's kind of demoralized me or held me back, or made me think I shouldn't do it. And it's just kind of been a fun challenge trying to...yeah, just navigate that. And we've been doing things like we're currently in the process of transitioning our...we have a Plus Plan. And when we launched it, it was essentially a grab bag of features. We're completely changing the feature set. And we right now have six and a half thousand people who are on that plan. But we don't have product market fit on that plan, and I can tell from when I do certain surveys the responses I get back. And so we're completely transitioning that to focus in on our most popular feature, which is the stats that we offer. And so that's kind of scary, but it's part of making that Plus Plan more sticky and easier to sell because it's going to be for your power users who love data. So they want all the data when they are reading. And then the other thing is, okay, what kind of business avenue can we start which fits in with the ethos of the product but brings in more revenue for StoryGraph? And so, we launched a giveaway segment in our app where publishers and authors can pay to list competitions for users to win copies of their books. And it's essentially a win-win-win because publishers and authors get another channel to market their books. Users get to win free books, and readers love winning free books. And StoryGraph has another revenue source that helps us stay independent and profitable, and sustainable in the long run. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. And there are two tracks I want to follow up on there; one is your decision not to seek funding; if you could just tell me a little more about the reasoning and your thought process behind that. And you've already touched on a little bit of the other ways you're looking at monetizing the app. NADIA: Since I was a teenager, I've always been interested in business, economics, entrepreneurship. I've always felt very entrepreneurial. I've read so many founder stories and startup stories over the years. And you hear about venture capitalists who come in, and even if it's fine for the first year or two, ultimately, they want a return. And at some point, that could come at odds with your mission or your goals for your company. And when I think about two things, the kind of life I want and also the nature of the product I'm building as well, VC just doesn't fit. And I know there are so many different funding programs and styles right now, a lot more friendlier [laughs] than VC. But I'm just focusing on VC because when I was younger, I used to think that was a marker of success. VC funding that was the track I thought I was going to go down, and that was what I kind of idolized as, oh my gosh, yes, getting a funding round of millions and millions and then building this huge company. That was how I used to be, so it's so interesting how I've completely gone to the other side. That idea that you could have mismatched goals and how it's ruined companies, once you take the first round of funding and you grow and expand, then you've got to keep taking more to just stay alive until some liquidation event. That just doesn't appeal to me. And I just think there's something ultimately very powerful and valuable about building a product without giving up any ownership to anybody else and being able to make it into something that people love, and that's profitable, and can give the people who run it great lifestyles. I just think that's a mark of an excellent product, and I just want to build one of those. And then I think also the nature of the product itself being a book tracking app. I think the product has done well because it is run and built so closely by myself and Rob. And so it's like, people talk about how, oh, you can tell it's built for readers by readers by people who care. And I run the company's Instagram, and it's not just me talking about the product. I'm talking with a bunch of our users about books and what we're reading. And it really feels like it's just got such a great community feel. And I worry that that can get lost with certain types of investment that I've previously thought that I wanted in my life. And so, yeah, that's the reason why I've kind of strayed away from the investment world. And then it's gotten to the point, like, now we're at the point where we don't need funding because we've been able to get to profitability by ourselves. So we don't need any type of funding. And we're just going to try and keep doing things to keep making the product better, to convert more people to the Plus Plan. And, hopefully, our giveaways platform grows in the way we want such that our goal is to just stay profitable and independent forever for as long as possible. And we think that way, we're going to have the most fun running the company, and the product is going to be the best it can be because there's not going to be competing incentives or goals for the product. VICTORIA: That makes sense. And it sounds like, in reality, in the real case, you had a team, and you had the skills yourself to be able to move the product forward without having to take on funding or take on additional support, which is awesome. And I actually really like your background. I also have a degree in economics. So I'm curious if the economics and philosophy, all of that, really lends itself to your skills as a founder. Is that accurate? NADIA: I don't think so. VICTORIA: [laughs] NADIA: I love my degree. I get sad when I meet econ grads or econ majors, and they're like, "Oh, I hated it. Oh, it was so boring," or whatever. I'm like, "No, it was so great." I'm a big microeconomics fan, so I was all about...I didn't like macro that much. I was all about the game theory and the microeconomic theory, that kind of stuff. I don't think there's anything that really ties into my skills as a founder. I feel like that's more to do with my upbringing and personality than what I studied. But, I mean, one of the reasons I did love my degree is because there are elements that do crop up. It's such a widely applicable...the subjects I did are so widely applicable, philosophy, different ways of seeing the world and thinking and approaching different people. And then, obviously, economics that's essentially behavior, and how markets work, and incentives, and all that kind of stuff. And when you get to pricing and all those sorts of things, and business, and then politics as well, I mean, everything is politics, right? People interacting. So there are definitely things and conversations I had at university, which I see things crop up day to day that I can tie back to it. But yeah, I think it doesn't really...my specific degree, I don't think it's made me a better founder than I would have been if I'd studied, I don't know, English or Math or something. VICTORIA: Right, yeah. I think economics is one of those where it's kind of so broadly applicable. You're kind of using it, but you don't even realize it sometimes. [laughs] NADIA: Yeah. MID-ROLL AD: thoughtbot is thrilled to announce our own incubator launching this year. If you are a non-technical founding team with a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our eight-week program. We'll help you move forward with confidence in your team, your product vision, and a roadmap for getting you there. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. VICTORIA: So what made you decide to go to a bootcamp right after finishing school? NADIA: So I'd always been entrepreneurial. I remember...I don't know where exactly it started from, whether I got it from my mom. I know she's always been very entrepreneurial and into business. The earliest memory I have of doing something that was very specifically business-oriented was in what we call sixth form in the UK, which is essentially the last two years of high school before you go to university or college; we had this scheme called Young Enterprise. And essentially, you got into teams of people, small teams, or they could be quite big, actually. It could be up to 20 people. And you started a business, and there were trade shows, and pitch meetings, and all that kind of stuff, so I remember getting involved in all that sort of stuff at school. But I'd always been on the investment banking track because when I was young...so my parents...we come from a poor background. And so my parents were very much like, you know, try and find high-paying careers to go into so that you can pay for whatever you want and you have a much better lifestyle. So I had gotten onto the investment banking track from the age of 14 when I went with a friend...at the school, I went to, there was a Take Your Daughter to Work Day. My dad said, "Oh, you want to go to try and find someone whose parent works in an investment bank or something like that. That's like a great career to go into." And so I went with a friend's dad to UBS. And I remember being blown away, like, wow, this is so fascinating. Because I think everything seems so impressive when you're 14, and you're walking into a space like that, and everything seems very lively. And everyone's walking around dressed sharp. They've got their BlackBerries. So from the age of 14 until 20, it would have been, I was very much I am going to work in an investment bank. And I did all the things that you would do, like all the schemes, the spring programs. And it got to my final internship. And I just remember at the internship being rather disillusioned and disappointed by the experience. I remember thinking, is this it? I was studying at Oxford, and I put so much into my studies. And I remember thinking; I'm working so hard. And this is what I come to? Is this it? And so around the time as well, I was also meeting a lot of people in the entrepreneurship space, social enterprises, people doing their own ventures. And I just remember thinking, oh, I feel like I've got to go down that track. And I ended up winning a place on a coding course. It was set up specifically to help more women get into tech. And it was called Code First Girls. I won a place that started...it was just part-time. What I did was I actually...I got the banking job from Deutsche Bank, it was, but I decided to turn it down. It was a very risky decision. I turned it down, and I stayed in Oxford after graduating and worked in the academic office for a while. And then, twice a week, I would go to London and do this coding course. And during it, on Twitter, I remember seeing a competition for a full-paid place at this bootcamp called Makers Academy. And I just thought to myself, having tech skills, I'd heard the feedback that it's a very powerful thing to have. And I remember thinking I should go for this competition. And I went for the competition, and I won a free place at the bootcamp. If I didn't win a free place at the bootcamp, I'm not sure what would have happened because I'm not sure whether at that point I would have thought, oh, paying £8,000 to go to a software bootcamp is what I should do. I'm not sure I would have got there. So that's how I got there, essentially. I won a competition for a bootcamp after having a taste of what coding was like and seeing how freeing it was to just be able to have a computer and an internet connection and build something. VICTORIA: Oh, that's wonderful. I love that story. And I've spent a lot of time with Women Who Code and trying to get women excited about coding. And that's exactly the story is that once you have it, it's a tool in your toolset. And if you want to build something, you can make it happen. And that's why it's important to continue the education and get access for people who might not normally have it. And you continue to do some of that work as well, right? You're involved in organizations like this? NADIA: Like Code First Girls? No. I did some years ago. I would go and attend Rails Girls workshops and be a mentor at them, at those. And while I was at Pivotal, I helped with events like codebar, which were essentially evenings where people who were learning to code or more junior could come and pair with someone more senior on whatever project they wanted to. So I did a bunch of that stuff in the years after leaving Makers Academy. And I was even a TA for a short time for a couple of weeks at Makers Academy as well after I graduated. But in more recent years, I haven't done much in that space, but I would love to do more at some point. I don't have the bandwidth to right now. [laughs] VICTORIA: And you're still a major speaker going and keynoting events all around the world. Have you done any recently, or have any coming up that you're excited about? NADIA: So before the pandemic, my last talk, I keynoted RubyWorld in Japan. That was in November 2019. And then the pandemic hit, and 2020 June, July was when StoryGraph had some viral tweets, and so we kicked off. And amongst all of that, I was being invited to speak at remote events, but it just didn't make sense for me. Not only was I so busy with work, but I put a lot of hours into my talks. And part of the fun is being there, hallway track, meeting people, being on stage. And so it just didn't appeal to me to spend so much time developing the talk to just deliver it at home. And so, I just spent all the time on StoryGraph. And I remember when events started happening again; I wondered whether I would even be invited to speak because I felt more detached from the Ruby community. Most of the conferences that I did were in the Ruby community. StoryGraph is built on Rails. Yeah, I just thought maybe I'll get back to that later. But all of a sudden, I had a series of amazing invitations. Andrew Culver started up The Rails SaaS Conference in LA in October, and I was invited to speak at that. And then, I was invited to keynote RubyConf, that was recently held in Houston, Texas, and also invited to keynote the satellite conference, RubyConf Mini in Providence, that happened a couple of weeks earlier. And so I had a very busy October and November, a lot of travel. I developed two new talks, a Ruby talk and a StoryGraph talk. It was my first ever time giving a talk on StoryGraph. It was a lot of work and amongst a lot of StoryGraph work that I needed to do. All of the talks went well, and it was so much fun to be back on the circuit again. And I'm looking forward to whatever speaking things crop up this year. VICTORIA: That's wonderful. I'm excited. I'll have to see if I can find a recording and get caught up myself. Going back to an earlier question, you mentioned quite a few times about market research and talking to the customers. And I'm just curious if you have a method or a set of tools that you use to run those experiments and collect that feedback and information. NADIA: Yes. So I remember one of the first things I did years ago was I read "The Mom Test" by Rob Fitzpatrick. And that's great for just getting the foundation of when you talk to customers; you don't want to lead them on in any shape or form. You just want to get the raw truth and go from there. So that's the underpinning of everything I do. And then, I learned from friends I made through Pivotal about how you put together a script for a customer research. You can't just have bullet points or whatever. You should have a script. And the foundation of that script is a hypothesis about what you're trying to find out in that round of research. And once you figure out your hypothesis, then you can put together the questions you want to ask and understand how you're going to measure the output. So the first ever thing I was trying to find out when I first started interviewing people was just very general. It was just like, are there any pain points? I was just trying to figure out are there any pain points among the avid reader group of people? And then I remember the results from that were, "No place for consistent, high-quality recommendations." And so then I said, okay, how are people finding recommendations now, or what are the factors that lead to people thinking a book was great for them? And that's how I ended up getting to the moods and pace. But when I do my interviews, I record them all. I watch them back. And I condense everything on sticky notes. And I use a virtual tool. And I try to take word for word. When I summarize, I still just try and use their specific words as much as possible. So I'm not adding my own editing over what they say. Every single interviewee has a different color. And I essentially group them into themes, and that's how I unlock whatever the answers are for that round. And then I use that...I might have been trying to find out what to build next or whether we should go down a certain product direction or not. And so, depending on the outcome, that helps me make up my mind about what to do. So that's the high-level process that I follow. VICTORIA: Well, that sounds very methodical, and interesting for me to hear your perspective on that. And you mentioned that you do have a redesign coming out soon for StoryGraph. Are there any other particular products or features that you're really excited to talk about coming up soon? NADIA: Yeah, I'm so excited about the redesign because we're bringing out...it's not just a UI improvement; it's a user experience improvement as well. So there are a lot of little features that have been asked for over the years. And actually, it was trying to deliver one of them that sparked the whole redesign. So people really want a marked as finished button. There's no way to mark as finished. You just toggle a book back to read. And some people find this quite counterintuitive, or it doesn't quite explain what they're doing. And so when I came to deliver the mark as finished button, this was months and months ago now, I realized that the book pane was just becoming so cluttered, and I was trying to fight with it to squeeze in this link. And I remember thinking; this is not the only thing people want to see on the book pane. They also want to see when they read the book without having to go into the book page. They also want to be able to add it to their next queue. And I just said, you know what? I need to redesign this whole thing. And so I was able to luckily work with Saron Yitbarek, who is married to my co-founder, Rob. There's a funny story about all of that. And she helped me do this redesign based on all my customer research. And so I'm just so excited to get it out because the other thing that we're bringing with it is dark mode, which is our most requested feature in history. And it's funny because I've always felt like, ah, that's a nice-to-have. But obviously, for some people, it's not a nice-to-have; it's an accessibility issue. And even me, I'm quite strict with my bedtime. I try and be offline an hour before bed. In bed by 11, up at 6, and even me if I want to track my pages, I'm like, ooh, this is a bit bright. And my phone itself is set on adaptive, so it's light mode during the day and dark mode during the night. And even me, I can see why people really want this and why it would just improve their experience, especially if everything else on your phone is dark. So I'm really excited to get that out, mainly for the UX improvements. And the other thing I'm really excited to do is transition the Plus Plan to being the advanced stats package rather than the random selection of features right now. Because not only will the people who pay us get more complex stats functionalities such that they feel like, wow, the subscription fee that I pay not only does it still make me feel like I'm supporting an alternative to Goodreads, an independent alternative to Goodreads I also get such value from these extra features. But the other thing is what I found from my customer research is that if you're a Plus customer, there's often one or two of the Plus features that you love and that you don't really use the others. But they're all really great features. And so what I'm really excited about is that we're going to make all the non-stats features free for everybody. And so I'm so excited for, like, we have a feature where if you put in a group of usernames, we look at all of your to-read lists and suggest great books for you to buddy-read together. Now, there's a bunch of Plus users who aren't social and don't care about it. But there's going to be a bunch of our free users who are so excited about that feature, probably will use it with their book clubs, things like that. We have up-next suggestions where we suggest what you should pick up next from your to-read pile based on a range of factors. It could be, oh, you're behind on your reading goal; here's a fast-paced book. Or this book is very similar to the one that you just finished, so if you want something the same, pick up this one. And, again, that's behind a paywall right now, and I'm just so excited for everybody to be able to use that. When I remember starting out with StoryGraph, I remember thinking, wow, the way this is going, wouldn't it be so cool if we could just suggest books that would be the next perfect read for you? Because a lot of people have a pile of books by their bedside table or on their shelves, and they're just like, well, which one should I start with? And this tool literally helps you to do that. And so I can't wait for everyone to be able to try it. And so that's why I'm excited about that transition because the Plus Plan will be better, and the free product will be better. VICTORIA: That sounds amazing. And I'm thinking in my head like, oh, I should start a book club with thoughtbot. Because there are some engineering management and other types of books we want to read, so maybe we could use StoryGraph to manage that and keep ourselves motivated to actually finish them. [laughs] NADIA: Cool. VICTORIA: No, this is wonderful. And what books are on your reading list coming up? NADIA: Yes. I am excited to read...I'm not sure...I'm blanking on the series' name. But the first book is called "The Poppy War." I don't know whether it's called "The Burning God" or if that's the third book in the series. But it's this very popular trilogy, and I'm excited to read that soon. I'm doing a slow chronological read of Toni Morrison's fiction. I recently read "Song of Solomon," which was great, really, really good. And so I'm excited to read more of her novels this year. I'm also on a kind of narrative nonfiction kick right now. I love narrative nonfiction. So I just finished reading "American Kingpin," which is about Silk Road. And I've picked up "Black Edge," which is about SAC Capital and Steve Cohen and that whole hedge fund insider trading situation. So I'm probably going to look for more of the same afterwards. VICTORIA: Well, that's very exciting. And it's inspiring that as a founder, you also still have time to read [laughs] and probably because StoryGraph makes it easy and motivating for you to do so. NADIA: Yeah, everyone thought that my reading would tank once I started the company, but, in fact, it's multiplied severalfold. And a couple of reasons; one is it's very important in general for me to make time for me because I'm in a situation that could easily become very stressful and could lead to burnout. So I make sure that I make time for me to read and to go to dance class regularly, which is my other main hobby. But then, secondly, I feel like I can justify it as work. Because I say, wow, me being a reader and being able to communicate with people on Instagram and on Twitter about books, not just the product, adds legitimacy to me as the founder and developer of this product. And so it's important that I keep reading. And it also helps the product be better because I understand what features are needed. So, for example, I never used to listen to audiobooks. I'm a big podcast person; I love music. So between those two, when does audio fit in? And also, I didn't like the idea that I could just be absent-minded sometimes with some podcasts, but with a book, you don't want spoilers. It could get confusing. But I started listening to audiobooks because we had a large audiobook user base. And they would ask for certain features, and it was really hard for me to relate and to understand their needs. And now that I have started listening to audiobooks as well, we made some great audiobook listeners-focused additions to the app last year, including you can track your minutes. So you can literally get you read this many pages in a day, but you also listened to this many minutes. You can set an hours goal for the year, so not just a reading goal or a pages goal. You can set an hours goal. Or maybe you're someone like me, where audiobooks are the smaller proportion of your reading, and you just want it all calculated as pages. And so I've got it on the setting where it's like, even when I track an audiobook in StoryGraph, convert it to pages for me, and I just have my nice, all-round page number at the end of the year. VICTORIA: That's so cool. Really interesting. And I've had such a nice time chatting with you today. Is there anything else that you'd like to share as a final takeaway for our listeners? NADIA: If you are someone who wants to start a company, maybe you want to bootstrap, you've got a product idea, I think it's honestly just trust the process. It will take time. But if you trust the process, you listen to customers and really listen to them...research ways to talk to customers, and don't cut corners with the process. There have been so many times when I've done a whole round of research, and then I say, oh, do I have to go through all these now and actually do a synthesis? I think anecdotally; I can figure out what the gist was; no, do the research. You don't know what insights you're going to find. And I think if you just trust that process...and I think the other thing is before you get to that stage, start building up a runway. Having a runway is so powerful. And so whether it's saving a bit more or diverting funds from something else if you have a runway and you can give yourself a couple of years, a few years without worrying about your next paycheck, that is incredibly valuable to getting started on your bootstrapping journey. VICTORIA: Thank you. That's so wonderful. And I appreciate you coming on today to be with us. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Mastodon at Victoria Guido. This podcast is brought to by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Nadia Odunayo.

[00:04:11] Jason and Andrew have a chat about seeing Drew Bragg at the Rails SaaS Conference and things they enjoyed about it.[00:07:50] We hear about all the talks at the conference from Nadia Odunayo, Joe Masilotti, Michael Buckbee, Don Pottinger, Adam Pallozzi, and Saron Yitbarek.[00:15:27] We learn why the guys had to leave the intergalactic cantina early, and they tell us about more of the talks from Todd Dickerson, Colleen Schnettler, Evan Phoenix, and Mike Coutermarsh.[00:21:26] Jason's explains his fun talk on the Rails Renaissance, find out why Andrew sat up front for it, and the last talk from Andrew Culver, who went through a lot of Bullet Train things.  [00:24:12] Jason gives a shout-out to Paula, the makeup artist, and we hear what she did to Jason's mustache.[00:26:19] Andrew gives a big shout-out to Andrew Culver who organized the conference and making it so much fun. [00:26:56] Jason announces he's finally working on his Active Record Course stuff now, and Andrew tells us about how he's been working on Kredis.[00:28:23] We end with a story about how Jason slipped out of the shower and now has a bruise the size of an IHOP pancake on his leg.Panelists:Jason CharnesAndrew MasonSponsor:  HoneybadgerLinks:Jason Charnes TwitterAndrew Mason TwitterRails SaaS Conference TwitterAndrew Culver TwitterRemote Ruby Podcast-Episode 185: Aaron & Colleen from HammerstoneHi-ChewRuby Radar NewsletterRuby Radar TwitterRuby for All Podcast

Our show is all about heroes making great strides in technology. But in InfoSec, not every hero expects to ride off into the sunset. In our series finale, we tackle vulnerability scans, how sharing information can be a powerful tool against cyber crime, and why it's more important than ever for cybersecurity to have more people, more eyes, and more voices, in the fight.Wietse Venema gives us the story of SATAN, and how it didn't destroy the world as expected. Maitreyi Sistla tells us how representation helps coders build things that work for everyone. And Mary Chaney shines a light on how hiring for a new generation can prepare us for a bold and brighter future.If you want to read up on some of our research on the InfoSec community, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.  

What began as a supposed accounting error landed Cliff Stoll in the midst of database intrusions, government organizations, and the beginnings of a newer threat—cyber-espionage. This led the eclectic astronomer-cum-systems administrator to create what we know today as intrusion detection. And it all began at a time when people didn't understand the importance of cybersecurity. This is a story that many in the infosec community have already heard, but the lessons from Stoll's journey are still relevant. Katie Hafner gives us the background on this unbelievable story. Richard Bejtlich outlines the “honey pot” that finally cracked open the international case. And Don Cavender discusses the impact of Stoll's work, and how it has inspired generations of security professionals.If you want to read up on some of our research on ransomware, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.  

It's a strange situation when someone can hold something hostage from halfway around the world. It's tragic when your own pictures and files are remotely encrypted. But when it's a hospital's system? Ransomware becomes a problem about life or death. Eddy Willems recounts his involvement in defeating an early ransomware attack that targeted AIDS researchers. At the time, there was a way to discover the encryption key. But as Moti Yung warned, asymmetric encryption would change everything. In the years since, ransomware attacks have become much more popular—thanks in part to the rise of cryptocurrencies. While criminals think it's an anonymous way to collect payment, Sheila Warren tells us that the opposite is actually true.If you want to read up on some of our research on ransomware, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript. 

All communication leaves the possibility for crossed wires. And as we become more connected, there's a chance for those with ill intentions to steal our information and meddle in our daily lives—with devastating results. Smriti Bhatt breaks down the complexity behind machine-in-the-middle attacks. Johannes Ullrich tells us why we shouldn't always trust that free WiFi. And the “father of SSL” Taher Elgamal notes that while cryptography can address the increasingly sophisticated nature of malware, there are no safe bets in security.If you want to read up on some of our research on machine in the middle attacks, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes.Follow along with the episode transcript.  

Overwhelming numbers are scary—even in the best of circumstances. You can plan for them, build up your defenses, and do everything imaginable to prepare. But when that horde of zombies hits, their sheer numbers can still cause devastation. Botnets are digital zombie hordes. Jamie Tomasello recounts the scale of the Bredolab botnet—and the many malicious kinds of missions it carried out. Martijn Grooten explains how botnets work, and why they can be so difficult to permanently dismantle. And Darren Mott shares some of the successes the FBI had in rounding up some of the world's most prolific bot herders.If you want to read up on some of our research on botnets, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.  

Logic bombs rarely have warning sounds. The victims mostly don't know to expect one. And even when a logic bomb is discovered before it's triggered, there isn't always enough time to defuse it. But there are ways to stop them in time. Paul Ducklin recounts the race to defuse the CIH logic bomb—and the horrible realization of how widespread it was. Costin Raiu explains how logic bombs get planted, and all the different kinds of damage they can do. And Manuel Egele shares some strategies for detecting logic bombs before their conditions are met.If you want to read up on some of our research on logic bombs, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.  

Sometimes a fun game, a friendly email, or an innocuous link can be the most convenient place for an enemy to hide. And its prey is none the wiser—until it strikes. The trojan horse uses many layers of deception to do damage. The ingenuity of these attacks keeps an alarming pace with the technology we use every day. But as long as we stick to trusted sites and sources, we can better the odds against those who use our trusting nature against us. Steve Weisman tells us about how trojans still keep security professionals on the defensive. Josephine Wolff details how these attacks have evolved, and keep evolving, to catch victims off guard. And Yanick Franantonio takes on the new frontier for trojan attacks. If you want to read up on some of our research on trojans, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes.Follow along with the episode transcript.   

Computer viruses and worms haunt the internet. They worm their way into a system, replicate, and spread again. It's a simple process—with devastating consequences. But there's a whole industry of people that rose up to fight back. Craig Schmugar recalls how he and his team responded to MyDoom, one of the fastest-spreading worms ever. Dr. Nur Zincir-Heywood reveals the inner workings of viruses and worms, and how they draw their names from the world of biology. And security expert Mikko Hypponen shares advice on avoiding malware. But he also warns that we're in an arms race against malware developers.If you want to read up on some of our research on viruses and worms, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.  

Malware haunts us all. Viruses, worms, trojan horses, and the harm they do often corrupts the promise of the internet. But the world of computing continues to grow. Though it's changed us forever, malware hasn't stopped us from connecting. Season 9 of Command Line Heroes is the culmination of the show. We focus on security and the people who, every day, face the monsters of the digital world. They disinfect computers from viruses, defuse logic bombs, and dismantle botnets. But they can't do it alone. It'll take all of us working together to make the world a safer place.The first episode drops February 22, 2022. Subscribe today and sign up for the newsletter to get the latest updates. 

In this featured episode of DevNews, hosts Saron Yitbarek and Josh Puetz talk about The New York Time's Wordle acquisition, and Apple App Stores new unlisted apps option. Then we speak with Hector Monsegur, director of research at Alacrinet and former black hat hacker about what a cyberwar between Russia and Ukraine would look like and what its effects could be. Finally, we speak with Jamshid Hashimi, founder of CodeWeekend, a coding bootcamp that is still providing education and hope within the chaos caused by the US pullout from Afghanistan and the new Taliban regime. Show Links DevDiscuss (sponsor) DevNews (sponsor) New Relic (sponsor) Retool (sponsor) Microsoft 30 Days to Learn It (sponsor) Wordle Is Joining The New York Times Games Unlisted app distribution Destructive malware targeting Ukrainian organizations Cybersecurity & Infrastructure Security Agency CodeWeekend

Robots have a special place in our imaginations. Writers, artists, directors, and more have shown how robots can change our world—for better or far, far worse. In the real world, robots seem a long way off. But are they? Season 8 of Command Line Heroes is all about the rise of the robots. They just may not be what you expect. We meet the first industrial robot, take a journey through the uncanny valley, and investigate a possible robot crime. Season 8 covers the robots that are in our midst—and the determined dreamers who bring them to life. The first episode drops September 7, 2021. Follow today and sign up for the newsletter to get the latest updates.

La gente más inteligente nos llevó a la luna con la potencia informática de las calculadoras de bolsillo. Y ahora nos llevará más lejos, gracias a la tecnología de la que hablamos toda la temporada. El código abierto nos lleva a Marte. En el último episodio de la segunda temporada visitaremos el Laboratorio de Propulsión a Chorro de la NASA. Tom Soderstrom nos habla de todas las ventajas que ha obtenido el Laboratorio gracias a la adopción del código abierto. Hila Lifshitz-Assaf explica que la NASA resuelve algunos de sus mayores problemas con software abierto y crowdsourcing. Y Dan Wachspress comenta que las empresas propietarias necesitan hacer algunos sacrificios para poder trabajar con la NASA, pero a cambio colaboran en los proyectos más innovadores del mundo. Los exploradores de las más amplias fronteras eligen trabajar de manera abierta, y Marte es su destino. ¿Qué sigue?

Jennifer Riggins (@jkriggins) and Rich Gall (@richggall) are joined by Saron Yitbarek, Founder and CEO of audio learning platform Disco and co-host of the brilliant Command Line Heroes podcast, to discuss the virtues of audio learning in age of excessive screen time and the importance of highlighting the stories of the people that have shaped the technology and software landscape today. Saron talks about her background and some of the challenges she faced when starting out in the software industry, explaining how they informed the work she has done since. She describes the thinking behind Disco, and how her earlier venture CodeNewbie (which has now been acquired by the team behind Dev.to), has laid the foundations for the types of work she is doing today. She also explains why she believes audio learning can be an important addition to the wide varity of formats available for people learning technology skills. We also discuss Command Line Heroes, with Saron talking about one of her favourite episodes, and touch on some of the parallels between that podcast and this.Saron also explains the importance of thinking carefully about how we onboard people into the tech and industry: she points out that we need to  better support systems for people moving into the industry from any background and at any point in their career.Follow Saron on Twitter: @saronyitbarekLearn more about DiscoLearn more about Code NewbieListen to Command Line HeroesWatch Saron's talk on CodeNewbie at Codeland 2020

The Y2K bug generated a lot of fear, but all that hype fizzled when the new millennium didn't start with a digital apocalypse. It turns out that fear was just aimed at the wrong catastrophe. While plenty were riding high on the rise of the internet beyond the Y2K scare, another disaster had been brewing since 1995—and would bring them back down. But the dot-com bubble wasn't the end. The internet was here to stay. Not long after the turn of the millennium, the dot-com economy collapsed. Peter Relan points to the flawed business plans that fueled the dot-com bubble, and how many entrepreneurs and investors underestimated the complexity of building a business on the internet. Ernie Smith tells the story of Pets.com, and how a similar idea a decade later had a much better chance of succeeding. Gennaro Coufano reveals the element of luck that saved Amazon from going under —and how it evolved in the aftermath. Julia Furlan reflects on the changes the dot-com bubble brought, and what's left to consider. And Brian McCullough describes how the dot-com bubble paved the way for a more resilient digital economy.If you want to read up on some of our research on the dot-com bubble, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. The page is built in the style of 1995—check it out.Follow along with the episode transcript.

¿Qué significa realmente la informática sin servidor? Los servidores siguen existiendo: los conceptos básicos de Internet no han cambiado. Pero y si alguien más los maneja, ¿a qué podrían dedicarse los desarrolladores, qué podrían lograr? La informática sin servidor facilita a los principiantes la implementación de las aplicaciones, y vuelve el trabajo más eficiente para los especialistas. Andrea Passwater explica que el olvidarse de los elementos de la infraestructura del desarrollo puede ayudar mucho. Pero al igual que cualquier avance, la informática sin servidor tiene sus inconvenientes. Rodric Rabbah nos cuenta que el quedarse sin servidor puede implicar renunciar al control de las implementaciones, además de que limita la capacidad para responder a los problemas, razón por la cual colaboró con la creación de Apache OpenWhisk, un entorno de código abierto sin servidor. Y Himanshu Pant plantea cuándo es conveniente utilizar los servicios sin servidor. El objetivo de la informática sin servidor debe ser dar más libertad a los desarrolladores. Pero incluso para simplificar nuestras herramientas, necesitamos pensar en todo el panorama.

1995 laid the groundwork for a truly global World Wide Web. But not every country took the same path to connecting to the internet. Some resisted, wanting to create their own version. Others had to fight for access, not wanting to be left behind. And while we made huge strides in connecting the world in those early years, we still have a long way to go. Julien Mailland recounts the rollout of France's Minitel service—how it was years ahead of the internet, but eventually lost its lead. Steve Goldstein explains what was involved in building the infrastructure to expand the NSFNET beyond the United States. Gianluigi Negro shares how China pushed for its connection, and how different it would be compared to the typical U.S. connection. And Christian O'Flaherty covers how costs weighed heavily on Argentina's attempts to join the growing international network. Clip of Madam Hu courtesy of Asia Internet History Project. Clip from 'A Glimpse of the Future' courtesy of Richard Seltzer. If you want to read up on some of our research on the global internet rollout, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. The page is built in the style of 1995—check it out.Follow along with the episode transcript.

The web was growing quickly in the ‘90s. But all that growth wasn’t going to lead to much if people couldn’t actually find any web sites. In 1995, an innovative new tool started crawling the web. And the search engine it fed opened the doors to the World Wide Web. Elizabeth Van Couvering describes trying to find websites before search engines, and how difficult it was becoming in the early ’90s to keep track of them all. Louis Monier talks about having to convince others how important search engines would become—and he showed them what a web crawler could do. Paul Cormier recounts taking the search engine from a research project to a commercial one. And Richard Seltzer wrote the book on search engines, helping the rest of the world see what a profoundly vital tool they would become. If you want to read up on some of our research on search, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. The page is built in the style of 1995—check it out.Follow along with the episode transcript.

Join us for Episode 29 of the Beer n BS Show.Inventing Swearwords Season Two.Join us as we come up with weird and stupid replacements for common swearwords. Our inventing swearwords session in 2020 gifted the world with the word Jovler. A defining moment in Beer n BS Show archive of podcasts. As unlikely as it may be – can we trump it this year? We of course blind taste some craft beers and play a very confusing round of Beer or BS! Grab a beer and join us for some Beer n Bullshit.Ales Tasted:Tr-hop-ical by Vocation Brewery (DDH Pale) – 5.7% ABVRachel rates 8.3 out of 10Fake Empire by Brew Dog (Sour Hazy IPA) – 6.2% ABV Aaron rates 8.3 out of 10Aubretia by Horsforth Brewery (Black IPA) - 5.5% ABVGeoff rates out 7.8 of 10Aaron's Craft Beer Suggestion:Quiet Nights - North Brewing - 4.6% ABV (Stout)Quiet Nights is a Milk Stout we've made to see us through these cold months ahead of us. The milk stouts origin lies in the 9th century, when it was common for workers to add whole milk to their ‘stout porters’ to make them more nutritious and satisfying. We've saved you the job and added lactose to a robust and complex wort produced using an array of specialist malts including a generous dose of chocolate malt. Rich, incredibly smooth, roasty and sweet, Quiet Nights is the hug in a glass we all need right now.Podcast Recomdendation:Command Line HeroesHear about the developers, programmers, hackers, geeks, and open source rebels revolutionizing the technology landscape. Podcast host Saron Yitbarek tells the epic true tales of the people who attempt the extraordinary and persevere against all odds. https://www.redhat.com/en/command-line-heroesBigfoot Festival 18th to 20th of June 20201 - Ragley Hall - Warwickshire UKBigfoot Festival have an amazing music programming for you, choosing the perfect beer from a top brewer, enjoying delicious food from the best chefs, stunning boutique camping that doesn’t break the bank, taking a moment of relaxation by the lake, and being open to all – families, friends, party-goers. Somewhere in enjoying all this excitement you’ll find Bigfoot.https://bigfootfestival.co.ukWe hope you enjoy the show. Please subscribe via your podcast app or on Spotify. If your Podcast app supports reviews, please give us a few kind words and a rating. New shows are released every 2 weeks on a Monday morning (GMT).Follow us on Instagram @BeernBSShow for news and updates.

We put a lot of trust into online shopping: sharing our names, addresses, and handing over money. In return, we have faith that the purchased item appears at our doorstep in a few days or weeks. That trust didn’t come easily. In 1995, we took our first steps out of the brick and mortar store to load our digital shopping cart. Robert Spector reveals how Amazon.com’s business foundations are in data—and being early to the internet. Sandeep Krishnamurthy recounts the rise of eBay. Angela Robinson describes the technology that makes secure transactions and trustworthy e-commerce possible. Kartik Shastri shares how difficult it was to store and process consumer data. And Katie Wilson explains how some big tech companies are different from previous monopolies, but are following many of the same paths.If you want to read up on some of our research on web design, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. The page is built in the style of 1995—check it out.Follow along with the episode transcript.

Saron shares the highs and lows of her journey as an entrepreneur and community organizer in tech, after attending Flatiron and completing the thoughtbot apprenticeship program. 

Looking at the internet in 1995 is like looking back at awkward grade school yearbooks—all the weirdness and flaws stand out in stark contrast to what it’s grown into since. And web design took awhile to become a career—but it got a big boost in 1995. When the Batman Forever website launched to promote the movie, it showed people what was possible on the web. And it forever changed what we’d expect from a website. Jay Hoffmann describes the quirky designs of the early web. Richard Vijgen explains how we went from a lack of conventions to a homogenized web. Jeffrey Zeldman recounts building the Batman Forever movie’s website—and sowing the seeds of professional web design. Jessica Helfand outlines the process and joys of designing a web page. And Kyle Drake shares how he founded Neocities in an attempt to recreate some of that magic of the early web.

The Hypertext Markup Language (HTML) gave everyone a foundation for building and viewing the World Wide Web. In 1995, its standardization led to dominance. Its simplicity helped it spread. And its solid common foundation helped shape the internet. Dr. Belinda Barnet explains what kind of framework was initially needed to build and navigate the Web. Jeff Veen describes the three ingredients Tim Berners-Lee combined to create HTML: the ideal language for the Web. Gavin Nicol recounts the need to standardize the quickly-growing language. And Gretchen McCulloch points out how HTML instills an inherent bias for English speakers to develop for the web.If you want to read up on some of our research on HTML, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript. 

1995 was the year that ISPs became the dominant gateway to the information superhighway. But how’d we go from ARPANET all the way to that? It turns out, none of it would have happened without a team of intrepid engineers at the University of Michigan.Marc Weber tells us how a tension between academics and the military set the next evolution of the ARPANET. Douglas Van Houweling discusses the work his MERIT team did at the University of Michigan to build the national backbone of the NSFNET. Elise Gerich, MERIT’s systems manager, talks about how they made the leap from a T1 connection to a T3 to handle traffic from their growing network. And Janet Abbate emphasizes how all this set the stage for the commercialized internet that birthed the dot-com boom in 1995.If you want to read up on some of our research on the NSFNET, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.

Don't miss out on the next #womenintech podcast episode, get notified by signing up here http://womenintechshow.com. Be featured in the Women in Tech Community by creating your profile here http://womenintechvip.com/“Remix: Saron Yitbarek, Magdeline Huang, and Tanya Dadasheva”#womenintech Show is a WeAreTech.fm production.To support the Women in Tech podcast go to https://www.patreon.com/womenintechTo be featured on the podcast go to http://womenintechshow.com/featureHost, Espree Devorahttps://twitter.com/espreedevorahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/espreeGuest,Saron Yitbarek https://saron.io//Guest,Magdeline Huang https://www.linkedin.com/in/magdelinehuang/Guest, Tanya Dadashevahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/tanya-dadasheva-3ba28885Be featured in the Women in Tech Community by creating your profile here http://womenintechvip.com/In LA? Here’s some awesome resources for you to become immersed in the LA Tech scene -For a calendar of all LA Startup events go to, http://WeAreLATech.comGet Podcast Listeners, http://getpodcastlisteners.com/Resources Mentioned:CodeNewbie, https://www.codenewbie.org/CodeNewbie Podcast, https://www.codenewbie.org/podcastTemp, https://www.redbull.com/int-en/projects/red-bull-basement-university/project/1187Red Bull Basement University, https://www.redbull.com/int-en/projects/red-bull-basement-universityAlmaz Capital, https://almazcapital.com/We Get Real AF Podcast, https://wegetrealaf.com/Credits:Produced and Hosted by Espree Devora, http://espreedevora.comStory Produced, Edited and Mastered by Cory Jennings, https://www.coryjennings.com/Production and Voiceover by Adam Carroll, http://www.ariacreative.ca/Team support by Janice GeronimoMusic by Jay Huffman, https://soundcloud.com/jayhuffmanShort Title: Saron Yitbarek, Magdeline Huang, and Tanya Dadasheva

The year is 1995. The internet starts going mainstream and the dot-com bubble begins its rapid inflation. But 10 years before all of this, a small team of systems administrators made a seemingly simple decision that would turn out to have a monumental impact on these events and would set the course of the internet for the foreseeable future. Dr. W. Joseph Campbell sets the stage for our season on the internet in 1995. Claire L. Evans explains how hard it was to find anything on the early internet. One team was charged with compiling that information in the early days of the ARPANET. Elizabeth “Jake” Feinler recounts being the internet’s sole librarian in those early days, and how she helped come up with the rules for future domain names. Paul Mockapetris describes designing the domain name system they later implemented as the internet went from a public network to a private business. And Ben Tarnoff explains the results of that increasingly privatized internet.If you want to read up on some of our research on the domain name system (DNS), you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.

Don't miss out on the next #womenintech podcast episode, get notified by signing up here http://womenintechshow.com. Be featured in the Women in Tech Community by creating your profile here http://womenintechvip.com/“Saron Yitbarek, Daria Leshchenko, and Anna Doulatshahi”#womenintech Show is a WeAreTech.fm production.To support the Women in Tech podcast go to https://www.patreon.com/womenintechTo be featured on the podcast go to http://womenintechshow.com/featureHost, Espree Devorahttps://twitter.com/espreedevorahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/espreeGuest,Saron Yitbarek https://saron.io//Guest,Daria Leshchenkohttps://www.linkedin.com/in/desnues/Guest,Anna Doulatshahi https://www.linkedin.com/in/annahita-doulatshahi/Be featured in the Women in Tech Community by creating your profile here http://womenintechvip.com/In LA? Here’s some awesome resources for you to become immersed in the LA Tech scene -For a calendar of all LA Startup events go to, http://WeAreLATech.comGet Podcast Listeners, http://getpodcastlisteners.com/Resources Mentioned:CodeNewbie, https://www.codenewbie.org/CodeNewbie Podcast, https://www.codenewbie.org/podcastSupport Your App, https://supportyourapp.com/nanopay, https://nanopay.net/Let Me Google That For You, https://lmgtfy.com/Credits:Produced and Hosted by Espree Devora, http://espreedevora.comStory Produced, Edited and Mastered by Cory Jennings, https://www.coryjennings.com/Production and Voiceover by Adam Carroll, http://www.ariacreative.ca/Team support by Janice GeronimoMusic by Jay Huffman, https://soundcloud.com/jayhuffmanShort Title: Saron Yitbarek, Daria Leshchenko, and Anna Doulatshahi

If you think hard work is enough to guarantee success, you haven’t been listening. All season long, we’ve profiled Black inventors who haven’t quite been given their due. Arlan Hamilton is helping reverse that trend by leveling the playing field—and changing the venture capital game.Arlan Hamilton’s story mirrors many we’ve covered this season—overcoming adversity to find success. But she’s also helping redefine what success can look like and, in the process, is helping change the broader tech industry. Janice Omadeke lays out how diversifying the VC community in turn leads to greater diversity among founders receiving funding. Ramona Ortega explains how traditional VC priorities often pass over startups that can be successful. And Scott Myers-Lipton discusses inequality in Silicon Valley (and beyond) and how he’s working to bring about lasting change.If you want to read up on more of our research on Arlan Hamilton, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.If you want to hear more from Arlan, check out her podcast: "Your First Million"." It's about how different people became portfolio companies at Backstage Capital.

Is the moon made of cheese? Of course not. But can a person walk on the surface? Not too long ago, we couldn’t answer that question. But with the help of Gladys Perkins, we soon figured out that we could send a team to the moon and have them safely land on its surface. There was a time when the United States was behind the Soviets in the space race. Everyone had their sights set on the moon. Andrew Chaikin describes NASA’s disastrous Ranger missions. Erik Conway explains how complicated the trajectory calculations were—and to top it all off, why they often couldn’t be done in advance. To succeed, NASA’s new Surveyor program would need the capability to adjust trajectory mid-flight. Gladys Perkins made those calculations possible. But her part in this story hasn’t been well documented. Our editor Kim Huang recounts how difficult it was to get details of her story. And Vahe Peroomian explains how important it is to get these histories told to inspire the next generation to take on moonshot projects.Finding information about Gladys Perkins was tough. We found some breadcrumbs to her story on this Hughes Aircraft blog.If you want to read up on some of our research on Gladys Perkins, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript. 

Roy Clay had to chase after opportunities. But landing a promising position wasn’t the finish line. Roy Clay pushed those opportunities beyond their mandate, transforming an industry in the process.Kathy Cotton recounts how few opportunities Roy Clay had growing up—but how, later, talk of his genius helped him get his break in the tech industry. Chuck House describes how Clay’s qualifications and experience were just what Hewlett and Packard were looking for. Bill Davidow explains how Clay made his mark at HP building a department, and shaping the strategy for a revolutionary 16-bit minicomputer. And in Clay, Ken Coleman found a role model and mentor. He followed in Clay’s footsteps, and helped expand a legacy of inclusion.Chuck House interviewed Roy Clay for his blog.Kathy Cotton featured Roy Clay in her documentary "A Place at the Table." Here is the full interview of Roy Clay with Dr. Barbara Canon and Rev. McKnight.If you want to read up on some of our research on Roy Clay, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript. 

It’s not easy to learn how to use computers when you can’t actually touch them. But that’s how Dr. Clarence Ellis started his career of invention—which would ultimately lead to reimagining how we all worked with computers and each other.Martez Mott describes the “Mother of all Demos” that would inspire a generation of builders. Gary Nutt recounts working with Dr. Clarence Ellis at Xerox PARC, and the atmosphere at the coveted research lab. Chengzheng Sun and Paul Curzon explain how Operational Transformation—the project to which Dr. Ellis devoted so much time and effort—laid the foundation for the collaborative tools many of us use every day. And Delilah DeMers shares how humble her father was, and how he loved teaching people that technology can be a force for good.“Mother of All Demos” clip courtesy of SRI International. To learn more about Operational Transformation, you can check out this FAQ written by Chengzheng Sun. If you want to read up on some of our research on Dr. Clarence Ellis, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.

Sometimes an inventor designs a device for a specific purpose. Sometimes it’s to try something new. But successful inventions often shape industries beyond those they initially intended. Dr. Marc Hannah built an invention with far bigger effects than anyone could have imagined—like bringing dinosaurs to life, building liquid robots, and letting the Titanic set sail one more time. Raqi Syed gives some context on the evolution of special effects in the movie industry. Mark Grossman explains how the graphics world was more than ready for an upgrade. Tom Davis recounts the difficulties that he and his team had getting people to understand what was possible with the Geometry Engine. Luckily, Steve “Spaz” Williams defied his bosses and showed them its power to bring worlds to life, starting with Jurassic Park. Camille Cellucci explains that from then on, everything changed for the movie industry—and for the broader world of graphics.For more on the history of computer graphics, Mark Grossman recommends this post. Steve "Spaz" Williams shared a short doc about the making of Jurassic Park. If you want to read up on some of our research on Dr. Marc Hannah, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.

In this episode of DevNews, hosts Saron Yitbarek and Josh Puetz, cover how Apple server problems caused slowdowns and crashes for app launching in all versions of MacOS, the rise of school districts being the targets of ransomware attacks, and GitHub reinstating youtube-dl, a program to download videos from YouTube and other video sites, after a Digital Millennium Copyright Act takedown. And then they chat with Senior Staff Writer at Motherboard, Joseph Cox, whose piece titled, “How the U.S. Military Buys Location Data from Ordinary Apps,” shines a spotlight on the location data industry, and who is being targeted. Show Links TwilioQuest (sponsor) DevDiscuss (sponsor) DevNews (sponsor) Linode (sponsor) DataStax (sponsor) How the U.S. Military Buys Location Data from Ordinary Apps Standing up for developers: youtube-dl is back Schools Struggling to Stay Open Get Hit by Ransomware Attacks Apple Addresses Privacy Concerns Surrounding App Authentication in macOS

Dr. Mark Dean has a superpower. He wasn’t born with it. He wasn’t exposed to high levels of radiation. It’s a power he learned from his father. And because of it, he was able to revolutionize the personal computer. David Bradley explains how in the 1980s, IBM had a reputation for building big, enterprise mainframes. No one believed IBM could make a competitive PC. But that’s exactly what “Project Chess” was tasked with creating. Tony Hey describes the monumental shift in strategy it was for IBM to enter the PC market. Pete Martinez and Dennis Moeller recount their days working with Mark on the skunkworks project. And how IBM's strategy for creating a computer in under a year changed the personal computing industry forever—opening it to innovators outside the walls of IBM. Mark Dean holds 3 of the 9 patents for the IBM 5150—the first IBM PC—including the revolutionary ISA bus. He then went on to lead the team that created the first gigahertz microprocessor, and eventually taught at the University of Tennessee. Mwamba Bowa shares her most cherished lesson from the inventor—how to cultivate that super power for herself. Clips of Mark Dean courtesy of Susan "Suze" Shaner, Principal of Sage Leadership Strategies, from a Comcast Cable interview, November 2009, and from the American Museum of Science & Energy featured talk, August 2019.If you want to read up on some of our research on Dr. Mark Dean, you can check out all our bonus material over at redhat.com/commandlineheroes. Follow along with the episode transcript.

Imagine that you learn how to code in an expensive bootcamp (or college). Not everyone can afford thousands of dollars to learn how to code. So you decide that there should be a better way to support people starting to code. You create an online community to help new coders and unexpectedly it becomes your business. That is what my guest in this episode went through. I spoke with Saron Yitbarek. Saron is the founder of CodeNewbie, which was acquired back in January 2020 by DEV. Saron is a coder, a podcaster, a speaker, an entrepreneur. She is currently working on her next business called DISCO, which provides audio courses for people in tech. The first course is an introduction to Machine Learning. During our conversation we went through details about Disco and producing educational content, which is an area that I am particularly super interested. Saron is a very straight talker with a sharp mind. She goes right to the point without any extra fluffy. You will see this in the episode. I'm really curious as to where she will be taking DISCO next. Enjoy the conversation with the business minded coder, Saron Yitbarek. Full show notes and links: https://SoloCoder.com/58

On Day 11/100 of the #100DaysOfCode Motivation Podcast, Saron Yitbarek, Founder of CodeNewbie, Host of CodeNewbie Podcast & Command Line Heroes Podcast by Red Hat, gives you a boost of confidence. Learning new things is always a challenge. Any feelings you're having on your journey are perfectly normal. Just keep pushing through and you'll do great! Go to join.teamtreehouse.com/100-days-of-code to launch your #100DaysOfCode Challenge with Treehouse today!

Guest: Saron Yitbarek: @saronyitbarek | bloggytoons | CodeNewbie | @CodeNewbies In this episode, Charles and Sam talk to Saron Yitbarek about her idea of mentorship, ideas for distributed learning for businesses to promote individual and company growth, and why it's important to take "digital sabbaths" on the regular. This show was produced by Mandy Moore, aka @therubyrep of DevReps, LLC. Transcript: SAM: Hey, everyone. Welcome to Episode 110 of The Frontside Podcast. My name is Sam Keathley. I'm a developer here at the Frontside and I will be your episode host. Today, we're here with Saron Yitbarek, discussing mentoring. She is the founder of CodeNewbie and the host of the CodeNewbie Podcast. Also with me as a co-host is Charles Lowell, who is also a developer at Frontside. Welcome Saron and welcome Charles. How are you guys doing? SARON: Thanks for having me. I'm doing pretty well. CHARLES: Hello. SAM: Today is going to be an interesting take on the mentoring talk. I mostly want to know first off, Saron, how do you feel about mentoring? What are your opinions on the mentor-mentee relationship or the value there? SARON: Yeah. I have lots of opinions on this topic. I think that the traditional structure of mentorship was usually looks like someone with less experience going to someone who has a lot more experience and say, "Will you be my mentor?" kind of like the children's book, 'Are You My Mother?' like 'Are you my mentor?' and then that person, that mother figure, that mentor looks after them and checks in on them and they have regular coffees and lunches and kind of steers them in the right, usually career-related direction. I don't think that's very realistic, to be honest. I think about why that might be. There's many different reasons. I think the fact that we're so, so, so networked and there's just so many different ways to get in contact with people and build relationships is a big reason but I think that that traditional mentorship model, that kind of one directional way of doing things is just not really needed and kind of overrated. I think that mentorship nowadays looks more like a mutually beneficial relationship, where I might reach out to someone who has more experience than me, for example in drawing, in art, not something I want to get to do but I know a crap-ton about podcasting, so I help you, you're my mentor in this specific area, in this specific topic but then, I get to be a mentor in this other thing that I'm really good at. I think it's those types of very focused topic-oriented, ideally two-way relationships that are more accurate and frankly, a more effective way of doing mentorship. SAM: Yeah, I actually agree with that. I am pretty new myself to development, only really been in this career for about a year now and I always kind of consider that mentoring relationship as a regression back to school days, where you have these -- SARON: Yeah, yeah. SAM: -- considered superior over you in some way, well, that's really not true in this community of developers and no matter where you are in development, it's all about working together and pairing. Working here has really showed me that value in paring, rather than like I have to look up to someone and regress back to feeling like a teenager in high school, like this person so good at this thing and they're the only one who can teach me. I definitely share that view of mentoring. I went to a boot camp one day when they were telling you like, "Oh, you got to find a mentor. You got to find a mentor," and I was like, "Well, but why? Why do [inaudible] together?" SARON: It's also a huge responsibility, a huge burden on the mentor too. Having to be, in a lot of ways, responsible for someone's career and trajectory and direction, that's a big responsibility. We don't have time for that, you know? On both ends, whether it's feeling like you're back in school or feeling like you have this huge responsibility, I think the traditional model isn't really the best model for either party. I think this idea of let's all learn together, let's be really focused on topics and problems that are very particular to what I'm doing, what I'm learning, what I'm trying to do. I think that works out. It feels healthier for both people. SAM: Absolutely. CHARLES: I wonder also too, it seems like it might be a little bit of a throwback to the days when people would spend 30 years in a single company or 30, 35 years in a single career where you have these people who are really these reservoirs of this intense tribal knowledge. It seems like people move around a lot more in their careers, not only in the company that they work for but also in the things that they're literally doing. I might be podcasting one day and producing a bunch of content and then, I might move into music or writing or other things like that. The careers seem to be broken apart a little bit more is one of the reasons why older models of advancement in those careers might not be as good a fit as they once were. SARON: Yes, absolutely. I'm obviously very biased because I'm in tech but when you think about the different roles that people have in tech, I feel like we're always wearing so many different hats. We have to, obviously code and be technical in that sense but we have to be really good communicators, a lot of us are speakers, we host podcasts, we organize conferences, we go to meetups, we're bloggers, we do so many other things, that this idea of, "I'm going to have a mentor who can help me in my role of being a developer," is just too big. You kind of meet people who are good at those individual pieces and those individual skills to get me to where I want to go. SAM: The whole idea of mentoring to me always reminded me of that whole Mr Miyagi relationship where you have this master of something and you're trying to learn from them. But in software development, I've learned that really no one is a master of anything because it's just changing so much and everything is so different. SARON: Yup, absolutely. CHARLES: The question is obviously, it seems like the idea that you're going to find one person who's going to represent the ideal confluence of every single skill set that you could hope to want, to be at some point in your career. That's looking more and more ludicrous. Is there a model where you can try and distribute those things, where you single out a large range of individuals? I guess the kind of what you were hinting at the beginning is that it is a lot more broken up, a lot more distributed but how do you pursue that, even if it is in a distributed manner? SARON: Yeah, that's a great question. One of the moments where I realize that the distributed model is really the only way that makes sense is, I think it was three years ago maybe. We thought about doing some kind of mentorship program in CodeNewbies, some type of way for people to link up and find people who can be there and guide in a way and we had people fill out this survey that basically said what do you want out of a mentor, what do you look for, what do you hope for to achieve but also asked how do you see yourself. Do you see yourself as a mentor, a mentee or both? It was really surprising that most people checked off both, which I thought was so interesting. It was so interesting to me that the same people who said, "I need help," with the same people who also said, "I also have help to give," and to me, that was such an amazing moment because I said, "Wow, it really isn't about this idea of I am the guide and I'm going to guide you." It's really about, "I have information expertise in one area and not in others." What I realize is there really isn't a mentor model. I think it's more of a culture of being helpful, which probably sounds really cheesy but it's true. I really think it's about saying, "I know how to do a thing. I'm going to go on Stack Overflow and answer questions. I'm going to go on Twitter and answer questions. I'm going to write blog post and share with the world." I think the real model, the real distributed mentoring model is us as individuals saying, "I just learned how to do a thing," or, "I just figured out how to do a thing well. Let me capture that. Let me capture it in a response, in an answer, in a forum, in a post and let me share that," and the more we do that as individuals, the more we have this huge amazing aggregate of knowledge that can serve as mentorship for all of us. SAM: I like the touch on that. That's kind of the idea behind Codeland Conference, where everybody thought they might be new to development and everyone is just sharing their knowledge. You might feel you really knew about it but you know a lot more than you think you do and you could still help. SARON: Yup, exactly and that's the whole idea, even the Twitter chats. When we first started, I don't have all the answers, I don't claim to, I don't really want that responsibility but I know there are a lot of people who do and I know a lot of people who have resources and opinions and who can help out. One thing that people do is they'll DM us and say, "I'm having a hard time with this." Sometimes, it's a very technical problems. Sometimes, it's a general 'I'm having a hard time getting a job,' which I do like high level question and I never answer them. I always say, "Tweet us and we'll retweet it and we'll get the whole community involved and we can have a rich conversation around it," and that's really been our motto, our philosophy. I see what they do with mentorship. If you have a mentor, you're not obligated, I guess to listen to them but the idea is kind of that you should. There is one person and you should listen to them because they know more than you. I think that's just not really fair and instead, I like to think that there are lots of different ways to do things and it's up to you to decide what's best for you and in order for you to decide, you have to have a lot of options. With Codeland, with the Twitter chats, no matter what skill level you're at, no matter how confident you feel in your coding abilities, you do have something to offer. Let's pull that out. Let's put it on the table and let's see who you can help today. SAM: That's a perfect way of introducing someone to the idea of helping or getting help from a community, rather than an individual because you never want to take one person's word as gospel on something you just know nothing about. SARON: Yeah, exactly. SAM: You can sound confident talking about something and it can be the total wrong answer but if you're seen as someone superior or someone who knows what they're doing -- SARON: And you can sell it. SAM: Yeah. You can be the best snake oil salesman in the world. SARON: Absolutely. For the CodeNewbie podcast, we do short questions at the end of each episode and one of the questions -- my favorite question -- is what's the worst advice you've ever received. I love that question because I started by saying, I think that people love giving advice. I think people love asking for advice and the assumption again is if I give you advice, then I probably know more and you should probably listen to me but that's not always true. I want people to be comfortable making their own decisions and deciding for themselves. "This may sound like it could work and this may sound like a good idea, generally speaking, but for me, it's probably not a good fit. It's probably not what's best for me," and to be comfortable rejecting advice and that was kind of the reason why I started that question, it's my favorite question and it's so interesting how much advice is good. It's kind of generic but it's a good advice. It's an advice like, "Don't quit. Keep going," which maybe a good idea and maybe you do need to quit, so being open to rejecting advice, I think is really important and that one of my favorite questions. SAM: In your experience, what is the best way to reject advice? Because when you're a new developer, when you're new at anything and you're seeking advice from a community or from a person, you don't want to come off as rude or maybe you're feeling... I don't know, not very confident but you think the advice that you were given is just bad advice. What would your advice be? I guess, what would your advice be on this advice? For your perspective, what would be a good advice to reject advice that you think is just wrong? SARON: Number one is when I ask people for advice, I try to think about and try to know upfront, do they have the same values that I do? Do they have the same worldview? Do they have the same goals? Because that's the thing too. Oh, my God, I got so much unsolicited advice. It's amazing. I've actually stopped just saying to people my ideas or what's on my mind because I know as soon as I say, "I'm thinking about this," I'll get a whole slew of unsolicited advice and I'm like, "I didn't ask for that." What I've learned is first to kind of figure out are we even on the same page because if my goal is to be a developer, if your goal is to be -- the only thing I could think of is a juggler, I don't know why -- a juggler and I ask you for a career advice, I'm going to go ahead and safely assume that what you have to say is probably not as applicable to me and so, number one is kind of identifying that. But number two is if they say something that just I know is not going to work or I've already tried, I'll just nod and say, "Thank you very much," and kind of go about my day. I don't think you have to declare whether or not you going to take it. I think just acknowledging and I think the people that give advice, I think they're trying to be helpful, they have good intentions, usually. Usually it's, "I'm trying to save you from making mistakes that I made and I'm trying to help you get to learn a little faster." I always appreciate it but knowing that I can say, "Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your perspective," but know that I don't have to go off [inaudible]. SAM: That's actually very similar to my tactic. Just not like, "Thank you. Thank you so much. Don't talk to me ever again." No. SARON: And disappear, yeah. SAM: I'm like the wind. With this pressure that either new developers or seasoned veterans are feeling about the mentor relationship, because I feel like a lot of senior developers that I've spoken with or people who've been in the business for a long time, feel like they should be mentoring or they need to take on that responsibility but there's always that hint of dread in their voice when they say about like, "Oh, I should be doing this." I always feel like it's okay to not do that. I never really understood why it was so high value to have this one-on-one relationship with an individual when you're not in school because it just feels so like... Not childish but childish. SARON: Yeah, that's one of things, frankly that I love about the tech community and also do not understand about the tech community. It's such a giving knowledge sharing community, whether you do it in a tactful way or not in a tactful way but the idea of giving back and paying it forward is just so deep. It's so, so deep that even when I've been coding for only a couple of months, I still felt this, I don't want to call pressure because pressure kind of sounds a little negative but I definitely felt this expectation that I was supposed to be blogging, supposed to be sharing and shouting and helping and doing these pay it forward type things. I don't really know where that comes from. Maybe that comes from the culture of open source, maybe that's where it kind of penetrate. I'm not sure but there's this huge need, desire, idea that we're supposed to be giving back and for that, I am very, very, very grateful. But I think that acknowledging that if you're someone who wants to be a mentor that you can do it simply by being available, literally being available, the going to be hashtag is super, super active even when we're not doing our Twitter chats and people use it to ask for help, they used it to ask questions. If you're feeling particularly giving or extra helpful that day, go on Twitter and check the hashtag and see what questions people are asking. Things like that or just super helpful and don't require a huge amount of time and effort. There's a lot of small ways to help out. That may not seem like a big deal to you but for the person who's asking for help, who has been banging their head against the wall, it's hugely valuable. SAM: Yeah, absolutely. Up until I went to my first conference this year, I didn't realize how supportive and important Twitter is. You know I always kind of considered it to be like another social media platform that I don't understand because I'm 84 years old and I just don't get it. It's been so uniquely helpful and in ways like Stack Overflow or even issues in GitHub, it just aren't. You can get so many more perspectives, so many different perspectives from people. SARON: Yeah, absolutely. Twitter has been amazing exactly for that. It's just an efficient way to crowdsource opinions and crowdsource perspectives and when you get your question answered and someone else answers it, it doesn't only benefit you the way it would if you email someone but it benefits anyone else who comes across that page, so yeah, it's hugely valuable. CHARLES: I remember the first moment I had kind of like that, a light bulb went off in my head where I was working on some really weird project that was using some strange wiki for its content storage and I was getting frustrated and I just tweeted about it and then the CTO of that company just immediately answered my question and I was like, "What?" You know, it was years ago and definitely, I was like, sound of explosion, that is where my mind exploded. I was not seeking help. I was just literally being kind of a jerk and venting frustration and lo and behold, the answer for my problem descended from the Twitter clouds. It was incredible. SARON: The Twitter clouds are the best clouds, usually CHARLES: Twitter is very... What's the word? It's very split down in the middle. SARON: Noodie? Yeah, there you go. SAM: There's this live feedback, so there's no buffer of emotion there, you know? SARON: Yeah. SAM: It's like, "Oh, this thing that you said, it made me mad. I'm going to tell you about it right now." Charles, I know that you had mentioned before that you think mentoring would be a good idea for Frontside and then, after all this discussion, have your views stayed the same? What are you feeling about that? CHARLES: As kind of the person who's like the grizzled veteran in the software world, it's definitely something that I've kind of whipped myself over the back. It's like feeling like it's something that we should do but I think it comes from the idea that people come here and we want to make sure that they're getting access to the learning that they need and the ways, in which they can level themselves up that they need, that's the kind of the prime motivator there. I always perceived mentorship as some vehicle through which to achieve that. It's something that I've heard. Obviously, we don't have a mentorship program at our company. It's something I felt that we should always be investigating. I've always felt maybe a little bit bad that we didn't have it but it's also something that I really struggled with in my career because I can't really say that I've ever had a mentor, so I don't really know what that relationship would look like but I do have a lot of people that I learned a lot of critical things from. I can look at it as kind of these seminal moments in my career, where like light bulbs went off and a lot of the time, they're associated with an individual and that individual and the thing that they taught me or multiple things that they taught me, are still with me. I have those experiences, which have been phenomenal and critical to my development as a software developer, so I guess it's just part and parcel of that impulse that you're describing to pay it forward, to realize that when you walked into the building, the lights were on and the walls were standing and the air was at a comfortable climate temperature. As you live there, you realize that there are people involved in actually, doing that maintenance and providing the building for you and the space for you to become aware of your world and then, when new people walk into the building, you want to provide them the same experience that you had. I guess that's my take on. That's the kind of thing that I would want to provide, so the question is like what does mentoring or mentoring 3.0, as we're maybe talking about in this conversation, how does that fit into that? How would you implement something like this, some sort of distributed learning in a company? I don't know. Maybe, it's not worthwhile. Maybe it is. SAM: I think it focuses more on that pair programming because when you're thinking back and you have all these people, like you have names of people that taught you something, it's multiple names. It's not just this one guy taught me all of these things. Actually, within a company, that mentoring just comes from pairing with your coworkers, seeing what different hats everybody wears and then, trying them on every now and again but not necessarily taking that individual's word as gospel, you know? CHARLES: Right and hopefully, that's not something that we've advocated for. Maybe, it's how do you introduce structure around that, to make sure that the proper ferment is happening, so that you have novel pairings and make sure the ideas that are flowing are flowing around the entire company and not just through certain set channels. SARON: Yeah. The other part of that is if you create structure around what it looks like to share outside. You know, pair programming is interesting because it's kind of one-on-one and it's hopefully, I have something important or bright to say in our pairing session. Maybe, I don't. Maybe I'm having a dull day. Maybe, I'm having a bad day but this really give you the same opportunity to take a moment and say, "What do I know? What do I want to share? What do I want to put together?" It does really give you a chance to prepare and gather yourself. It's kind of in the moment. I think having another opportunity where you can gather yourself is important and so, that might look like brown bag lunches, where everyone takes a turn and has to do a little lightning talk. That's usually the opportunity to say, "I have five minutes. I'm going to share something." Everyone has a turn, which means that the company's literally saying everyone has something to say. It's only five minutes, only a few minutes, so hopefully it won't be too terrifying if you're not big on public speaking and it's your co-worker so hopefully, it won't be terrifying because it's people you know and not total strangers. You know, a format like that, where there's structure but the company is saying, "We're going to give you time to think about what you're good at and what you know and to share that is good." I think another way to do that is by setting time aside for blogging. If your company can say, "Thirty minutes out of the week, we're going to take some time to write down five things I learned, to write down one cool thing I learned, post it publicly, post it internally about this expectation that everyone should be writing, everyone should be sharing, which also says everyone has something to share." I think those are two ideas and two ways that we can create a culture of sharing and a culture of distributed mentorship, where everyone has an opportunity to find the thing that they're excited about and specific ways to share it. SAM: Yeah, that's excellent. CHARLES: I hope you're grinning as much as I am, Sam because at least in the first half, you basically described our Lunch and Learn process. It's a little bit more than five minutes but I think another thing that clicked for me there is making sure that having a variation of expectations of quality or something like that because I feel like where we do really well is in the Lunch and Learn thing. We have a process very similar to what you describe but where we're not so good is maybe with blogging. I wonder if part of that is we just hold ourselves to such a high standard of what it is. The idea that we could throw together a blog post in 30 minutes, I love that idea but it means you really have to be willing to just say, "You know what? We're going to get it out there and we're going to make it bite-sized and the expectation is that we're not going to be writing some gigantic essay that's going to shake the industry to its core every Friday at three o'clock." There are things and if we can, I shouldn't say a reduction in quality but maybe a reduction in scope so that you can say like, "We're going to carve out 30 minutes or an hour and we're going to pick a topic that scope-appropriately for that." SARON: Absolutely and I think that knowing that you only have 30 minutes or maybe it's an hour -- an hour is probably a little bit more realistic -- but knowing that you only have an hour also forces scope. You can't write a book about JavaScript in an hour. You just can't, so the fact that by the end of that hour, you have to have something to turn in is a great way to force people to focus and do something really small and really bite-sized. The other thing is I don't think that after the hour, you need to publish it publicly. It could be, you need to turn it into someone else, to edit and look over for you and give you feedback. It's not quite ready yet but it's a solid first draft and the ideas that after that first person edits it, then it's on its way to being published. I think there's different ways to manage a scope without also making this scary thing where I have to say something for the Earth to shake. There's different things that we can do around that. CHARLES: I'm wondering what other forms of sharing that we can fit into our workday. I guess, the other baseline is just making sure that you're always... What is it? ABT -- always be tweeting. It's so easy to be write-only, not even engaging conversations but just throwing ideas out into the void. SAM: I think holding a discussion with your coworkers like if you're in an environment where you can work face to face or are constantly online, if you're more of a remote worker, I think just having a conversation with anybody, rather than just putting your idea out there, putting it out there with someone who can actually provide real time feedback in a more friendly way, then I think some people on Twitter could be. Because they're your coworkers and they're not going to call you rude names, you know? CHARLES: Right and you're also going to know, hopefully the whole trust and intent and 'are we on the same page?' that question is answered even before the text is written. SAM: Right. SARON: Yeah, absolutely and with those conversations, this actually mean [inaudible] that we do. We do like a show and tell every week and the idea is that we're both always learning random things, usually related things but sometimes, totally random but still very interesting and it will take 30 minutes to just share what we've learned. Sometimes, they'll also turn it into a blog post. Sometimes, it's just a knowledge sharing opportunity. I'm not really sure but it's a good window of opportunity to say, "We are learning and we're sharing and we have something of value to bring." The great thing about something like a show and tell is that it doesn't necessarily have to come from my brain. It doesn't have to be like, "I have a great idea that I'm going to share." It could be, "I read about this cool idea." It can be, "I heard about this cool thing that we can try and we can apply," but I still kind of credit, you know? Like I get credit for being the value bringer but the burden isn't on me every week to come up with the idea. That's a nice balance, to kind of create space to share and to promote this knowledge share and if it comes from you, it's great but if not, you're still helping other people. CHARLES: I have a question that may or may not be related in here. This has just kind of occurred to me because this is definitely something that I experienced, where I get into a mode where I become overwhelmed by the ideas that people are sharing and so, what's the balance? Because usually, we're out there searching for ideas and we're searching for novel things so that we can include them in our work, in the things that we want to do and accomplish, whether be that in tech or elsewhere. What's the balance of being heads down and being like, "You know what? I'm going to be closed to new ideas right now." Because they can be distracting, right? The [inaudible], that's actually a phenomenon and so, how do you protect yourself from sharing? What's the balance? SARON: My solution was to move to San Diego. That was my solution to that. I actually moved from New Jersey and I worked in New York City... How long has it been? Was it only been a year? Oh, my goodness, and now, I'm in San Diego and it was so interesting because that ended up being a really nice side effect. I didn't move specifically for that reason but when you are commuting in New York City every single day, there's so much going on all the time. There's just so many ideas and events and meet ups and companies and people. It's just so much. I think that it was a great place to be in my early 20s when I really just wanted to soak up everyone else's ideas and I didn't really have opinions of my own at that point and it's a great way to just kind of absorb and be this awesome sponge in the big city but after a while, I kind of realized, maybe I have my own ideas and my own thoughts, so moving to San Diego, which is a much, much, much quieter place, has been a really great way to reflect and sit with my own thoughts and feelings and opinions and just kind of focus on that. I understand that everyone can move to San Diego, although I highly recommend it but I think in that way of carving out like... What do they call it? Do they call it a tech sabbath? A digital sabbath? Am I saying that right? CHARLES: Yeah. Maybe. It sounds about right. SARON: Yeah. I came across that term recently but this idea of one day out of the week, I'm not going to be on the interweb. I'll just not going to do it. Maybe, even the whole weekend, oh, my goodness and saying, "I'm just going to stay away from things. I'm just going to create a little space for me to think and reflect." I think when I don't have the whole day and what I need is just like a moment, I find that writing things down is a great way -- a really, really good way of doing it -- even if I'm taking notes or from doing a strategy session or if I'm trying to make a decision. Usually, I'll start typing and what I've started to do recently is to say, "I'm not going to type. I'm going to plot in a notebook and I'm just going to write things down," and because writing is slower than typing, it forces you to just think. It forces you to be alone with your thoughts, for better or worse and it forces you to really just to think about what you're doing or what you're saying and reflect. It's a really, really great meditative exercise that I found. You know, finding little ways to build in an escape from the noise, ideally on a regular basis, I think is a really healthy thing to do. SAM: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. My normal method of sort of closing everybody off is I just sketch out ideas because I'm an artist. I come from that sort of perspective as I can make a drawing out of feelings more so than I can write them out. If I'm feeling really overwhelmed or if I'm trying to make sense of some information that people have given me, I just sketch it out and I think that's something that doesn't really get talked about a lot in the whole community because sometimes it's always about eat, breathe, live, code, you know? We have different skills. You have other things that you're good at that's not just code. When I was at React Rally, a lot of people were in the music and then finding a way to separate yourself from the entirety of it is definitely one of the better ways to make sense of your situation. SARON: Yup, absolutely. CHARLES: Yeah. Sleep? It's a great way to take a break. SARON: Sleep is so good. SAM: On my top three things: sleep. CHARLES: Yeah. SARON: Yeah. As a kid, I never ever thought I would look forward to my bedtime ever. You know, it's my favorite part of the day. CHARLES: Yeah but like sleep, writing, drawing, I always forget. Like when I'm caught up in a problem, I always forget that engaging in some other activity -- I like to walk in the place next to my house. I like to play my ukulele. Engaging in those activities is almost on the critical path to solving the problem and I always forget it. I think we always forget it but sometimes, you can be so frustrated and you can just shut it off, be completely alone and there is some magical process that's probably going on in your brain. I don't know exactly what it is but you come back and the answer is just sitting there, waiting practically on your desk. SARON: Absolutely. One thing, we recently moved a couple of weeks ago to a new place and it's a little bit bigger and so, I had the opportunity to unpack boxes and buy furniture that we didn't really need before or just trying to make it more of a home. I've been using it as a really great opportunity to be productive and to feel productive but not be in front of a screen. Sometimes, I even like save tasks for myself like, "I'm going to wait till the evening to put together this shelf because I'm going to need a moment to just be away from my computer." I have a plan around it so it ended up being such that, I think about every day, there's one little home activity thing that I can do, whether it's cleaning or cooking or assembly or movie or something with the home, that allows me to, because I'm not really a hobby person. I don't really do hobbies because it just feels, like no judgment on people who do. I know people get really into their hobbies but it just feels like, "Why?" You know, like, "Why?" like, "For what?" But when I put a shelf together, it's like, "I'm going to use this for books." You know what I mean? Like you're very purposeful, so home activities has been my way of carving out that space away from the screen but also feeling like I'm doing something productive, I'm getting things done. SAM: Something that I would recommend to anybody who doesn't really have that, I'm going to step away from the computer and do this thing. Something that's kind of helping me was the Pomodoro Technique, which if you're not familiar with that, it's basically a time management thing where you set your timer for work like for 25 minutes, 30 minutes or whatever and then, when the timer goes off, you take an allotted break for five minutes, 10 minutes, just so you're not doing the thing that you've been doing for the last 30 minutes. SARON: Yes, absolutely. That's a great one. SAM: My advice is to implement that if you don't have a thing, that you use for your cleaner, I guess. SARON: Oh, you want to hear some really terrible but effective advice? SAM: Yes. SARON: And this is what I found out very accidentally is if you have a really, really crappy office chair that hurts -- CHARLES: Oh, man. I'm sitting in one right now. It's literally a rocking chair from the 1800s. SARON: That sounds awesome. CHARLES: Yeah, it does sounds awesome. SARON: But if you have a crappy office chair, that can be a really great way to get away from your screen because after about an hour, your thighs will hurt and your back will hurt and you will be forced to get up and walk around. It's so funny because I have a pretty crappy office chair and my back has been hurting for so long and I just thought, "That's life." That's like my [inaudible] for myself. I'm like, "That's just how life is, my backs hurt," and then it got to a point where I was like, "I need to go and talk to someone," and as soon after that, I spoke to a conference and I was basically up and down away from any type of chair for like four or five days straight and magically, my back pain went away and I was, "Oh, my God. It's that freaking chair," and ever since I realized it, I started noticing it. I would sit down and I would go, "I'm nearing the one- Oh, there are my thighs. There they go. They're in pain." There's another great cheap life hack: get a crappy chair, after about an hour, everything will hurt. You will be forced to go do some jumping jacks for about five, 10 minutes and there's your additional sabbath. There you go. SAM: In Charles' case, probably a haunted office chair. Yeah, that's an excellent advice. I never really noticed that. Now, I'm going to. CHARLES: You know what funny is, I actually didn't even notice it but I do. I never used to get up and go on walks before or spend as much of the day standing as I do and I'm actually completely and totally oblivious to it but I think, I realize like I can attribute a lot of that to the terribly, uncomfortable chair, in which I sit on every day. SARON: I have this awesome habit of sitting cross-legged, which apparently is a very, very bad idea, my physical therapist told me, so I make it worse for myself. If you don't feel like you have enough screen time, just sit cross-legged and that will accelerate the pain process. SAM: As you said that, I am currently sitting cross-legged in my desk chair. SARON: Yeah! SAM: That's just how I sit in chairs. My legs are too short to reach the floor. SARON: Me too. I just find it so comfortable. I don't know and I'm so happy to hear that you also do this because I'm like, "Am I just weird?" because I love sitting cross-legged. It's so comfortable. It makes me really happy. SAM: No, I verified 100%, that's how I sit in all chairs. SARON: Yeah, the same. CHARLES: I can do one leg. SARON: Only one? Man, you need to work on that. SAM: -- [inaudible]. That's going to be the end of our podcast. Again, thank you Saron for coming on and having this awesome conversation about mentoring. Definitely check out the website CodeNewbie.org. We are the Frontside. We build software that you can stick a future on. Hit us up if you're looking for help building your next big thing and also, hit us up on Twitter. Hit Charles, myself, Frontside and Saron on Twitter. SARON: Thank you so much for having me. This is awesome. This is fun. SAM: Also, I want to give another thanks to Mandy, our producer for producing this lovely episode and all of our episodes. If you have any questions for us, hit us up on Twitter. Any ideas for future topics, any thoughts you have on this great conversation, let us know and we'll talk to you all later.

Saron Yitbarek went from Pre-Med to learning to code, to founding CodeNewbie, the most supportive community of programmers and people learning to code. We talked about the things she did while learning to code, reading other people's code and why she started a small code reading club. We also talked about methods of learning, code quality, and building a successful tech community.

Saron Yitbarek: @saronyitbarek | CodeNewbie | Codeland Conference Show Notes: 00:32 - Codeland Conference and The Conference Experience 08:06 - Impostor Syndrome 15:32 - The CodeNewbie Community and Growing Junior Developers 20:06 - Dev Job Red Flags and Should-be Basic Requirements Resources: Codeland Volunteer Form The CodeNewbie Podcast Episode 60: Impostor Syndrome with Alicia Liu Alicia Liu: Overcoming Impostor Syndrome: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Coding Alicia Liu: Impostor Syndrome Is Not Just a Confidence Problem: The dangers of becoming a buzz word CodeNewbie TwitterChat Transcript: JEFFREY: Hello everyone. This is Episode 63 of The Frontside Podcast. I'm Jeffrey Cherewaty, developer here at The Frontside. With me is Robert De Luca, also a developer at The Frontside. ROBERT: Hello, hello. JEFFREY: Our guest today is Saron Yitbarek. She's the founder of CodeNewbies and host of The CodeNewbies Podcast. Hi, Saron. SARON: Hey, how is it going? JEFFREY: Great. ROBERT: Pretty good. JEFFREY: You have a big event coming up, the Codeland Conference. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what's going on there? SARON: Yeah, I'm so excited for Codeland. It is our first CodeNewbie conference. I've done a good amount of speaking at different tech conferences all over the world for a few years now. Ever since the first one I went to, I thought, "We really need one for junior people, for folks who are just getting started," so I kept a running list of everything I hate about conferences and the things that I like about conferences. This is my chance to put it all to the test. It's a two-day conference, single-track and the idea is really to get people excited about all the things they can do with code, especially for our community. The two types of jobs we generally hear about are working in a really, really small startup or working in a really big tech company like a Microsoft or a Google. But we don't hear about working at the hospital or working at the library or the many nonprofits who need technical help. The idea is to bring in people from all different backgrounds, walks of life, solving different problems and showing how code can be a really, really great tool for that JEFFREY: What are some of the things from previous conferences that you really like that you're bringing in Codeland? SARON: I like that you started positive. That's a good start. JEFFREY: We'll go for negative later. SARON: Yeah. [Laughs] Save the best for last. The stuff that I really like about conferences is the community part. It's being able to see a bunch of Twitter avatars come to life for the first time and being able to sit and talk. I feel like conferences are the only place where I can network without feeling gross and without feeling like I'm networking. I feel like I'm genuinely having real relationships and conversations. I think it's because we are going through this experience together and I can say, "Oh, did you hear that talk on this and that? It was so cool." It's a very organic way to start a relationship. That's probably one of my favorite things about conferences. ROBERT: There's a lot of ability in there for small talk about anything because there's so much going on. You could pick anything that you want and you're all experiencing the same thing and you're all kind of vulnerable. I love conferences for that reason. SARON: Yes, exactly and a lot of times, you're in a new city for the first time, you're staying in the same hotel, you're eating the same food. There's so many created and forced points of connection there for you so you can pick anything and start a conversation. ROBERT: Yeah, I really like that. I'm looking at the website right now and I see inspiring talks and it doesn't look like they're all exactly technology specific so I like to see the city life and health. That's super interesting. I want to hear a little bit more about that. SARON: Sure. I wanted to pick topics that are generally not covered as much in tech. Also, I didn't want to start from the technology. I think that a lot of people our community are very excited about the possibilities of tech and what they can do with it. We hear a lot of stories of people who say, "You know, I see this problem in my neighborhood. I see this problem in my community. I see this problem at work and I think that code is a really great way to solve it and to put together these solutions that I have in my head." The way that we're working -- and that's another thing -- you are working very, very closely with all of our speakers and we're starting from the problem space. We're starting from the users and then we end up in a place where the technology becomes the solution. I think that when you start at that more common, human, empathetic element, I think you are much more likely to bring people in, who may not feel as comfortable with the tech because the way we've kind of organized and thought through stuff is focusing on the problems that all humans and all of us can relate to and then saying, "One way we can solve that and address that is through JavaScript or leaf letter," whatever that tool is. ROBERT: That sounds really cool. Is there going to be conference talks that are centered around like how to have proper work-life balance, for example to filling to that health or how I've configured my editor to help with... I don't know, like ergonomics for my hand because I was getting carpal tunnel on my left hand because I was using control too much, that kind of stuff. That sounds really cool. SARON: Yeah, that's actually a really good idea. That would make a really great talk but that's what Day 2 is for. The one thing that I've seen a lot in my own conference experience is I'll watch a talk, I'll listen to a talk and it'll be so inspiring and exciting. But then I go home and it's over and I'm back to my daily grind and all of that energy and positivity just kind of goes away. What we wanted to do was have that first day be focused on all these ideas and projects and the second day transition into what do we do about them. We have a block of workshops from things like crafting your portfolio, to doing really well on a technical interview so really getting your hands dirty and trying out some of those skills. Then we have handouts for people who come in and talk about how they contribute to open source. We do have one actually on work-life balance and learning to code and how you do that so making sure that we leave people with really practical advice and action items and next steps so they feel empowered to go out and be awesome developers. ROBERT: This is awesome. The conference is kind of structured almost like a workshop in a way to where like Day 1, you're going to come in and hear a bunch of things that are going to get you all riled up and inspired and then Day 2, it's like, "This is how we go and implement that." SARON: Yeah. I want to credit Duane O'Brien from PayPal who forced me to think very, very hard about the conference experience. When I first pitched him on this I said, "Hey, I want to do a conference for CodeNewbies," and I have kind of a disconnected list of topics that I wanted to talk about and do address and he said, "You really need to sit down and to think through what is the UX or the experience," like what's the user story. I go to CodeNewbie as a new developer so that I can structure it so it feels like one really cohesive experience. I sat down for many hours and really thought through, "How do I want people to feel? Where do I want them to get excited, to get to work, to be interactive and really participate?" Putting a lot of time into that has really shaped this conference. ROBERT: That is really cool. To be clear this conference is happening in April. SARON: Yep. April 21 and 22 in New York City. ROBERT: Awesome. I think this is really cool. Conferences are awesome but when it was my first conference ever, I just felt overwhelmed because you walk past the cliques of people -- I don't want to say cliques but you see the groups of people that have been there and done it and you're like, "How do I break into that?" If the conference is kind of filled with everybody like that, giving your first conference talk could be a lot easier, just like breaking into the community and talking to people could be a lot easier so I think this whole idea of running a conference for newbies is A+, honestly. SARON: Thank you. ROBERT: I wish this was around whenever I was within the very beginnings of my career. That's really cool. Is there anything, anybody on the outside can do to get involved and help like volunteer? SARON: We have a bunch of volunteer's spots to help out at the day of the conference. I'm really excited because a lot of people who've stepped up are people who aren't necessarily the right attendees. There are folks who have years of experience who just want to wait to join in and do something and help out. We have volunteer spots and I'm happy to include that in the show notes. I can send a link to that. Then we also have a section during our workshop. We have like an optional community coding session where if you don't want to do any specific workshops, you can just bring your laptop and just socialize and code and work on your own stuff. If anyone is interested in the New York City area in participating or just being like a floating, technical mentor of sorts, those are the two ways to get involve. ROBERT: That's really cool. JEFFREY: New Yorkers, get on that. ROBERT: One of the things that I hear you like to talk about and it kind of fits in perfectly with this is this Impostor Syndrome. I think this'll really help with Impostor Syndrome. One of the foundational goals for this is to help people come to grips with that and deal with it better, I guess or peel the onion back on what Impostor Syndrome is. JEFFREY: Let's start there, let's start with what is Impostor Syndrome. Why don't you give your best definition of it? SARON: Sure. I was really excited the very first time I heard about Impostor Syndrome, I think it was maybe four or five years ago and I said, "Oh, my God. That explains so much of my life," and when I really dug into it though, it was slightly different than the way that I initially understood it. The official academic definition of Impostor Syndrome is a way to describe the phenomenon where I have a lot of accomplishments, I'm ten years into my career, I have all these accolades, I'm the CTO senior or whatever of this and that, and even though I have all these very tangible, very real accomplishments and proof of how awesome I am, I have trouble internalizing that. I can't look at that and go, "Oh, I am awesome." I look at that and go, "Ah, that's cute but I'm still not quite there yet." I think that in our community, when we talk about Impostor Syndrome, that's not really what we mean. I think we are describing what happens to everyone when they're learning something for the first time where they say, "Oh, I'm not getting this as fast as I think I should. I know a little bit but I won't know nearly enough to belong." It's really the sense of belonging that we have classified as Impostor Syndrome. We actually had a guest, Alicia Liu on our podcast, I think it was about a year ago, talk about it and it was interesting because the first time that she blogged about it a few years ago, it went viral. Everyone's like, "Yeah, it's totally how I feel," and then she wrote another blog post a couple years later that said, "No, no, no, everybody. That's not what Impostor Syndrome is. You're not impostor. You're actually just a beginner, you're just new, you feel like you don't know what you're doing because you probably don't, which is fine." It's totally fine to not know what you're doing. But the definition of Impostor Syndrome for me has definitely shifted a little bit over the years. ROBERT: It's interesting that the textbook definition and what we kind of experience in the industry are at odds, in a way because the textbook words like you have this well-accomplished person that has done a lot and they don't feel like they're good enough for what they're doing. Then what we have is just like, everybody in the programming community is trying to fit in and they're always trying to learn new things and always feeling like they're not getting it fast enough. I think that's an industry-wide problem. JEFFREY: I kind of always feel like a beginner because everything's changing in our industry so fast, all the time so there's always this disconnect between, "Well, I may have done some things and I may have accomplished some things along the way but I'm still beginner whatever this new tech is," Actually, everyone else is too. It's nice to be reminded of the fact that to be around other engineers who are experiencing that too that we're all in this together and we're all new at this. Nobody is quite expert level at this particular tech stack or this particular way of thinking it. We're all figuring it out as a community. SARON: Yeah. One of my favorite talks that Scott Hanselman does is this really awesome talk about a little bit about his background in JavaScript and the evolution of JavaScript frameworks and he has this whole section where he goes through a list of this really impressive resume and all the stuff that he knows how to do and he deeply understands. But at the end of it he goes, "All of that is completely irrelevant because of Heroku." [Laughter] SARON: None of that matters. ROBERT: "Now, I need to go learn something else." SARON: Yeah, exactly. For me sitting in the audience I was like, "Yes! Heroku," because I'm thinking, "If that's how this guy feels, he's been doing it for so much longer than I have, I have a chance at this." ROBERT: I feel like I send the 'I don't know what I'm doing dog' meme to someone, at least once a week. At least. [Laughter] ROBERT: I feel this often. I think it can be interpreted to the world is changing so much. But I think it's a little different for people that are experienced in the industry versus people that feel who are brand new because, I think when you're brand new, it feels so new and I don't know... uninviting maybe for the Impostor Syndrome? Whereas you get older -- not older -- you get more experience and you become one with the Impostor Syndrome like somebody asked you to do something that you don't know and you're like, "Urgh! Yeah, sure. I'll do it. I'll figure it out somehow," and then go on your way but you still feel that feeling. But when you're a newbie, it's overwhelming almost. Do you know any tactics that kind of help that? I actually have no clue besides like pairing and trying to bring this new person into the programming world and telling them like, "This is kind of how it is." SARON: I think that community is a great way to solve that. When I first learned to code, I taught myself for a few months. I did all the free and relatively cheap online resources and it was so frustrating because it was my first time being in a world where I was in a semi-permanent state of failure until something finally worked and then I got to celebrate that for two seconds. Then we moved on to the next feature, the next bug, the next whatever. Being in this cycle, this vicious cycle of constant failure and having so little time spent, actually enjoying the wins was so different. It was really hard not to internalize that. Especially in my world where my family has no idea what coding is. They still don't really get what I do. I said, "It has something to do with computers and podcasting." My mom is actually going to come up for Codeland and I'm so excited because she can finally see what it is that I'm doing all day. ROBERT: That is awesome. SARON: Yeah. She texted me and she's like, "Yeah, let's bring your family and your friends and your dad can come," and I'm like, "Mom, that's not what this is." [Laughter] SARON: But yeah, your family doesn't really get what you're doing, your friends. If you're not coming from the tech world, if you're transitioning, they have no idea what you're doing so it's super, super lonely and it's really hard to explain. When I transitioned from that into enrolling in a boot camp and doing that for three months, all of a sudden, I had 40, 45 people who were with me every single day for eight to twelve hours at times, who knew exactly what I was going through and who understood everything that sucked about it and everything that was awesome about it. Just knowing that it wasn't me -- I was not the problem, the code was the problem and the journey is the problem -- just changed everything and that's really why I started CodeNewbie to say coding boot camps can be an awesome experience but for a lot of people, they're not accessible. It's three months at least without a job, it's between $12,000 and $17,000 and because there's not always a credit programs, you can't necessarily get like a student loan the way you can for a college. For a lot of reasons, there are really high barriers. I wanted to make it a little bit easier for people to find a support system who are going on that journey. That's what really started CodeNewbie and we did that through the CodeNewbie Twitter chats that we do every Wednesday at 9PM Eastern Time and we do that every single week for an hour, really as an excuse to say, "We're all going to hang out at this place." As long as you have an internet connection, you can join and find friends and find people who know exactly where you're going through and that's really been, for me a huge, huge help. JEFFREY: What kinds of positive experiences and stories have come out of that community? Have you seen actual great change happened through that? SARON: Yeah, definitely. We've had people get internships, we've had people get jobs, we've had people just find out that other people in their neighborhood are also learning to code. I've seen a lot of like, "I see you're in Portland. I'm in Portland too. Oh, my God." A lot of that and then they meet up in person and they pair. We've seen a lot of mentors and mentees pair up through CodeNewbie so it's just been a really great jumping off point for a lot of folks to find those connections and opportunities that run with it. JEFFREY: Through Codeland and through CodeNewbie, one of the goals is to connect junior engineers into their community. What kinds of roles and ways to connect do junior engineers have through the opportunities like this? SARON: A lot of folks are finding internships and apprenticeships and some junior roles. I think what I'm really excited for with our community is the growing number of junior positions that are popping up. If you see the list of the companies, GitHub is the one, I think of top of mine who have started creating like a hybrid coding and community roles for junior people to get their foot in the door, to start to get some real experience under their belt before going for something a little bit more coding, have a little more full time. I think at GitHub they're calling it like a... Oh, I'm going to mess it up. It's not a community manager but it's something around like a community manager position. What I really like about these hybrid roles is the fact that a lot of folks in our community who are transitioning into code have very, very valid, very awesome real world job experience. It's just not technical experience. They've done a lot of sales, they've done some design, they've done marketing, they've done a lot of community building, they've done a lot of customer service, really empathy-centric jobs and roles. With these hybrid positions, they're able to leverage that background a lot for those really awesome communication skills, while also getting a little bit more comfortable in transitioning into a more code-heavy, tech-related position. One thing that I hope happens and frankly, I think just needs to happen, given the high demand for developers is more of these hybrid roles, more of these entry-level junior developer roles. I know that there are apprenticeships and internships that have always existed for computer science degree students that are now transitioning and being a little bit more open to career transitioners as well as people who are students. I'm definitely seeing a lot of shifts in the industry and I hope to see more of that. I hope that more of these awesome people who are really just so excited and so passionate and eyes wide open and very teachable. I think it's one of the things that senior people are really excited about working with our community is knowing that we are very open to being taught, we don't have best practices, we don't have bad habits yet so we're really moldable in that way so I'm really hoping to see that trend to continue where there are more learning positions and also more full time entry-level positions in software. JEFFREY: That's excellent. I hadn't heard of many examples of the kind of hybrid role but I'm thinking back to previous job I had where there was a very large customer service department and several members of that team are like, "We want to start developing." Like they're playing around with code and there definitely could have been an opportunity for them to maybe 75% of their job is the customer service work and what they've been trained to do. Then the other part of their job is like, "Let's start leveling you up and let's start teaching you some things and giving you an opportunity to play and learn." That's an awesome opportunity. SARON: Yeah and that's the thing too is a lot of this is already happening on informal basis. I've heard definitely my fair share of stories and we've actually interviewed people in the podcast who said, "I started in customer service. I started in accounting. I started in this totally unrelated part of my company and then I raise my hand and I said, 'I want this coding stuff.' I started shadowing developers and just going to hang around the engineering team enough that they eventually let me do some documentation work or look at some bugs. Then I slowly transition into a developer position." A lot of this has been happening very organically but I think the more we can systematize it, the more we can formalize that process, the more accessible it becomes for people who just didn't know that they could raise their hand and create those opportunities for themselves. I think the more people do it and the more we can really put rules and structure around programs like that, the more we can bring more people in. ROBERT: That sounds really cool. I have a question. We know what the good situation would be for a newbie to get into. Are there any things that you could advise people that might be looking for the first dev job like anything that are red flags to avoid? SARON: There are so many red flags. That's a good one -- ROBERT: Because I wish I had this when I was starting out. SARON: Yeah. I think one of the hardest parts about being a junior person is just not knowing what it means to be a good developer. It's one of those things when senior people tweet and write blog posts and things about how incompetent they feel a lot of the times and how they feel like they just don't know enough. On the one side, it's really comforting and it's validating but on the other side, for me at least, it makes me panic a little bit because I'm thinking, "Holy crap. If you don't feel like you're good, then how would I ever be good? How would I even know what good is if I'm working towards that?" I think one of the things to look out for is a company that actually has put some thought into what it means to be a good developer? What are best practices? I know this is super subjective and a lot of times it's just based on the product of the company and the values of that space but I think for a junior developer, if you walk into a place where people are so busy running and trying to catch up or trying to keep up that they aren't able to look back and go, "Oh, you're on the right path," or "You're making progress," it's going to be, at the very least frustrating for you and worst case scenario, it'll be impossible for you to grow and really develop and progress in a way that's going to make you happy and fulfilled for your career. I think one of the red flags is -- not so much of a red flag, it's more of one of things to look out for are companies that have tech blogs, that have a podcast, that have really good documentation, that have style guides, that have a mentorship programs, that do brown bag lunches, things like that really show that the companies put a lot of thought into what they value on their engineering team and are much more likely to help you grow in your career. JEFFREY: So that it's more likely that they will have room for you to grow instead of, "Hey, we need some cheap labor." ROBERT: Yeah, exactly and that's the thing. As career transitioners, people who are not used to tech salaries, it's super easy to undervalue yourself. It's very, very easy to say, "I'm just coming from a job that paid $25,000 or $30,000 a year. Yeah, I'll take a $40,000 dev job. That's so much better than what I'm doing." It's like a 50% increase. It's really easy to sell yourself short. I think when you look at a company and see the structure and the thought they put into growth, I think they're much more likely to really invest in you, as opposed to taking advantage of the fact that you're just more than happy to be there. ROBERT: Yeah, I love that. One of the things that Brandon told me when I first started here and I was worried about failing was we didn't invest in Rob the developer, we invested in Rob the person. That was something that really stuck with me that helped like it harkens back to the Impostor Syndrome, it definitely helped with me except being that failures will happen and if I do fail, it's okay because I'm in a space that allows that. Maybe something that a newbie would look out for is software teams that have good process, not shipping broken tests to production or things like that. But also managers that are there to help you and to be there for you and take you on one-on-ones and give you good feedback. I guess, it really just boils down to having a good support structure. SARON: That's the kind of thing that can be hard to evaluate until you're actually there on the team. When you're in the interview, it's like dating. You put on your best outfit, you put on some lipstick, you get your hair done and who knows what you really look like on Wednesday night at midnight, right? [Laughter] JEFFREY: That's when I made my best. I don't know about you. [Laughter] SARON: Some questions that have really helped me out or asking how do you support more junior people. You specifically asking like, "Do you have an education stipend? Do you have a conference stipend? Do you have books? What are the perks?" A lot of times, it can be really straightforward to evaluate. How much they care about your development as a person, if you just look at the perks that they offer? I really love when there is an education thing, when there is a book thing, when they pay for you to go to conferences because that really tells me that you care, not just about getting the most out of my time with you but you really care about my development as a person, as a developer. Those are really good signs. Then I think there are things like when you brought up testing -- that was one of my basic requirements when I was interviewing a few years ago -- and was saying like, "Do you have tests? Why don't you have tests, if you don't?" I've had a lot of answers and they were like, "We didn't really see the point," or, "We just don't do that here." Those are not good reasons to not have test. ROBERT: No. Those are very bad. If you could see the faces we just made, we're like, "Ahhh! No!" Especially for a newbie jumping in, that is your safety net because you read the assertions and you can understand what the code is supposed to do. SARON: Yeah. Same thing with documentation like how much time they spend on documentation? If the answer is, "We don't do that," then the whys are what really become important. If the why is simply, "We're stretched too thin. We're trying to fix that by hiring people like you where we can now focus on documentation," that's a much better answer than, "Ahh! We just don't really need it. We don't see the point." I think when we can ask the people who are looking for jobs, when we can ask the companies more why questions and really get a sense of the way they make their decisions, I think that can be very telling in what type of environment you're getting into. JEFFREY: I add in there. One more thing for junior engineers to look for is vulnerability from future employers that they're willing to own up to their mistakes and talk about their failures. You know that you as a junior person, I also have the ability to do that. You're going to fail. It's going to happen. But if it's an accepted thing and a thing that the company knows how to deal with and talk about and embrace and turn around into successes, then that's a very good thing. All right, thanks for joining us, Saron. Everyone check out CodelandConf.com. That's coming up in April. That's all for The Frontside Podcast. Thanks for joining us.