Podcast appearances and mentions of alec hill

[00:00:00] Vonna Laue: One of the indicators for nonprofits that anyone who hears me speak knows that I'm always going to harp on a little bit, and that is available cash. Not just cash, because you can look at the balance sheet and see, wow, we've got $700,000 in cash. If that's what the board looks at and starts making decisions based on, you could find yourself in trouble because the available cash that I'm talking about takes that cash number, but then it subtracts two things out of there. [00:00:33] Vonna Laue: It subtracts the things that we're going to pay this week. So maybe we've got payroll coming up this week and we've got a bunch of accounts we're going to pay. I'm going to take that out of there. And I'm also going to take out any temporarily restricted funds that have been given by donors for a specific purpose. If those amounts are held in that cash number, I'm going to back those out. If you back out those two things, that $700,000 might be $200,000. And that board and those leaders are going to make significantly different decisions based on $700,000 versus $200,000.  Right? That's a financial metric. ++++++++++++++++ [00:01:10] Tommy Thomas: You and I have a mutual friend, Alec Hill, former President of InterVarsity. And he wrote of some of the pain and suffering he experienced while being the President of Intervarsity. And he writes, if we pause and reflect long enough, pain is a great teacher. Our character can be transformed more through a day of suffering than a month of study. As I think about your book that's coming out here in a couple of weeks, I would imagine that played into the writing of the book. [00:01:39] Vonna Laue: You are absolutely correct. So, the book is Glad I Didn't Know, and then it's subtitled Lessons Learned Through Life's Challenges and Unexpected Blessings, so it absolutely does play into that. The premise of the book is that there are a lot of difficult things that we go through that if we'd known in advance, we would have done everything we could to avoid those, but if we had avoided those, we'd have missed out on what God had planned for us and the lessons that we learned as a result of it. [00:02:12] Vonna Laue: The flip side of that is also the unexpected blessings. And when I look at things like serving on the World Vision Board, if someone had told me in advance, you're going to be on the World Vision Board. I'd have thought, okay, I need this education and I need this experience and I need to network with this person, and I'd have totally messed it up. But I just faithfully follow one thing to the next. And so would totally agree with Alec there. And I'm glad I don't know a lot of the things that I'm going to go through. And each time we go through something, it makes it a little bit easier the next time to look back on the faithfulness of God and realize, okay, we're going to come out the other side of this and there will be blessings as a result of it, even though it's a challenge at the time. [00:03:01] Tommy Thomas: What lesson did you learn from writing this book? A real practical question. [00:03:07] Vonna Laue: Yeah. One of the things that just in the process that I learned initially, I had chapters for the whole book, and I was just going to write their life stories. And then in some discussions and some just careful consideration, I realized if I did that, it would be really easy for a reader to say, oh, that's nice for that person and dismiss it. And the applicability that it had to their lives. And so, within the book, there are 16 other contributors that all contributed a story of their life that they were glad they didn't know. And so, the encouragement there and just the lesson was if we're willing to be honest with ourselves and honest with those around us, we've all got those stories and in sharing them, there is a blessing to be had both by the giver and the receiver. [00:04:09] Vonna Laue: Tommy, I had a number of people that wrote chapters that when they submitted them said something like, I needed to do that. Or it was a blessing to me to go through this, and there were a few people that I had ideas of the stories that they would contribute because I knew specific things about their life. But all of them, I just asked them to do a story. And many of the ones that I thought the story they would do was not the story. They actually contributed. And so fun to see, just how God's orchestrated that. [00:04:45] Tommy Thomas: What's the most dangerous behavior trait that you've seen that can derail a leader's career? [00:04:54] Vonna Laue: I'm going to look at, especially those who have been leading for a long time. A few years ago, I was pondering a few of the leaders that had not finished well. And, you get, I think you use the word distinguished when you introduced me and I translated that to experienced or old, one of the two, some length of time and so as I think about that, it really hit home. Partially because of the people and the disappointment that I had in the situation, but partially because I realized I'm not in the first half of my career. And so, I want to make sure that I do what I can to finish well. And so back to your question. One of the things that really came out to me was the idea of having people speak truth into your life. The more experience we gain in leadership, the scarcer it becomes to have people who will candidly share the truth with us. With time, leaders tend to surround themselves with fewer people who are ready to speak honestly and openly with them. [00:05:51] Vonna Laue: And the longer we lead, the fewer people I find that leaders have around them that are willing to speak truth into them. We talk about being put on a pedestal. That can happen in a number of different ways. It doesn't mean we're famous. Doesn't mean we have all the glory that some of the people you would think of might have. It can happen to any leader, but we rise up far enough in our career or our organization that we just don't have as many close confidants around us that will challenge us. That will speak truth. And I think that when that happens is when people are more likely to not finish well. [00:06:38] Tommy Thomas: I'm sure. Ross Hoskins at One Hope, he says, surround yourself with people who know you better than yourself and will tell you the truth out of love.  This is how we grow. [00:06:49] Vonna Laue: Amen. He just perfectly summarized what I would agree with. Perfectly. [00:06:57] Tommy Thomas: So, if you were going to write another book and this book was going to be about the burdens of leadership that only the president or the CEO can bear, what would be some of your chapter headings? [00:07:10] Vonna Laue: Have to think about that one a little bit……Chapter headings? [00:07:18] Tommy Thomas: Or topics that you think have to be talked about. [00:07:22] Vonna Laue: Yep. I think the topics definitely are similar to what was just said, choosing people that are extremely accomplished to be around you. We talk about having smarter people than you. I'm a big fan of that. I would also say working in a team. We are not as good by ourselves as we are with a team around us. And so, when you're looking at that key leadership position, you're only as good as the team that is around you. I think also you've got to have that personal and spiritual aspect to it. So encouraging leaders, I often find, and as I speak on personal leadership, when I'm at my busiest, the two things that are easiest for me to give up are my workout and my devotion time. The two things I need most when I'm busiest are my workout and my devotion time [00:08:19] Vonna Laue: The two things I need most when I'm busiest are my workout and my devotion time. And so reminding leaders that you're only as good as you are healthy. That's really important and that's, in a number of different way,s that health spiritually that health physically and the health relationally, you know that you don't sacrifice those relationships that are closest to you because you don't get the time back. We often say I'll do that when this project is over. I'll do that when this season is over. And I think all of the people listening to this podcast probably realize there is no normal, right? We used to say when things get back to normal, I'll do this. And that hectic life that we live as Americans, I think is just normal. And so those are a few of the keys that I think are so crucial for leaders. [00:09:18] Tommy Thomas: I remember when I interviewed Rich Stearns and I'm not going to remember the person's name, but he was talking about his career at Parker Brothers, and he said that there was one of the people in the family that didn't know anything at all about toys, but he knew how to hire a team and that was what made the success of Parker Brothers was this man's ability to bring people onto the team that could lead. [00:09:41] Vonna Laue: I would fully agree with that. I mentioned that I usually am doing a lot of different things. So right now, I'm serving as the COO and CFO of an organization and director of internal audit for another one and doing some audit and advisory with a third and some projects, all of that. But the way that works is the teams that are established in each of those places. Within the team, the mission's organization where I serve, the director of global services role that I have, that's like the COO role, that has operations and finance and personnel and IT and security, that's a lot just in and of itself, but I have four phenomenal directors. That they need encouragement. [00:10:31] Vonna Laue: They need a champion, and they need a sounding board. And as long as I can provide those things, they will do their roles far better than I ever could. In fact, I often say when you hire, you better keep them happy and keep them around because you probably can't do their job. +++++++++++++++ [00:10:50] Tommy Thomas:  If you were creating a dashboard to get at a nonprofit organization's health, what would be some of your dials? [00:10:57] Vonna Laue: Oh, I love dashboards. You just spoke one of my love languages there. So, one of the things that I think is key to a dashboard is that I'm a CPA, so it has to have some financial indicators on it, right? [00:11:11] Tommy Thomas: Absolutely. [00:11:13] Vonna Laue: You have to have those. And the basic ones, you're going to have some things like where you are versus, actual. And you're gonna do some trend analysis in that a little bit, I say, this way in a church. Everybody knows it's December. What season of the year is the lowest attendance and the lowest giving season? Always summer, right? And how do we know that? It's because of trends. And so, trend information can be really helpful.  So, I think that a dashboard should include trends. One of the indicators for nonprofits that anyone who hears me speak knows that I'm always going to harp on a little bit, and that is available cash. [00:12:08] Vonna Laue: So not just cash, because you can look at the balance sheet and see, wow, we've got $700,000 cash. If that's what the board looks at and starts making decisions based on, you could find yourself in trouble because the available cash that I'm talking about takes that cash number, but then it subtracts two things out of there. It subtracts the things that we're going to pay this week. So maybe we've got payroll coming up this week and we've got a bunch of accounts we're going to pay. I'm going to take that out of there. And I'm also going to take out any temporarily restricted funds that have been given by donors for a specific purpose. [00:12:46] Vonna Laue: If those amounts are held in that cash number, I'm going to back those out. If you back out those two things, that $700,000 might be $200,000. And that board and those leaders are going to make significantly different decisions based on $700,000 versus $200,000. Right? That's a financial metric. But as far as dashboards as a whole, my real encouragement there is to look at what your key drivers are. So, look at the financial pieces that you need to monitor, but also look at your non-financial and make sure that they are included in that dashboard as well. Maybe it's your turnover percentage. Maybe it's your involvement in X program. How many meals are we feeding? How many beds have we provided depending on what your program is, but that dashboard report ought to tie to whatever your strategic plan is, so the strategic things that you're looking at. Those are the guideposts of that dashboard that you're going to be monitoring to make sure that your strategic plan is being fulfilled. [00:14:00] Tommy Thomas: On a little bit lighter note, but still probably following the same track. If you were a judge on a non-profit version of the Shark Tank and people were coming to you for early-stage investments, what questions would you need solid answers to before you would open your checkbook? [00:14:18] Vonna Laue: I'm always going to want to know what their budgeting process is. Again, you're asking an accountant. I want to understand that. I want to understand who they've vetted this with. What are the focus groups that you've talked to? Who are the mentors or coaches that have processed this with you? What are your strengths? And where you don't have strengths, who are the people that you have identified and already discussed with that are going to come around you to shore up those weaknesses, if you will. So those are a few of the things that I want to make sure that this is well thought out and it's not just the flavor of the week. [00:15:00] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to board service for a few minutes. So, you're now the chairman of the World Vision Board, or the chairperson, I guess I should say. Give us some highlights of what you've learned about the Chairman's role. I know you watched Joan for several years and watched her successes, and I'm sure lack of on some days. What have you learned there?  [00:15:22] Vonna Laue: I will tell you, Tommy, when they asked me if I would consider taking the chair role, the first thing I said was, did you ask this individual? And I named someone from the Board, and they said, yes. And he serves on a couple of large for-profit boards and doesn't have the time and capacity. And I said, okay, as long as you've shown the discernment that you asked him first, we're good. But then I actually went to that individual and I said, if I do this, will you coach me? Would you be willing to debrief with me after the meetings? [00:16:01] Vonna Laue: And honestly, we just finished up meetings on Tuesday this week. And he and I have a call scheduled for Monday. And he said I'd love to do that. He graciously agreed. And so that, to me, was important. Because I didn't know the role. I had served on the board, but that role is different. And so, the relationship between the Board Chair and the CEO is obviously the most critical. We have a pretty, no, we have a very sophisticated board. I'm odd by who God has assembled in that room. And so, when I first came into it, I would say I was just trying not to embarrass myself, but they are such a gracious group of people. "To run an effective Board Meeting, I review agendas and pre-reads in advance, addressing my questions beforehand so meeting time is focused on others' concerns." [00:16:51] Vonna Laue: And it's important to me that the meetings are well run. And that means I want to see the agendas in advance and speak into those. I want to see the pre reads in advance and have gone through all of those so that if I have questions, I can answer them. I'm not asking those questions during the meeting that's reserved for others, and that those may be questions that others would have. So, let's get those addressed in the pre reads or be prepared. So, I think that the preparation that goes into the time before the meetings is critical. ++++++++++++++= [00:17:26] Tommy Thomas: So, here's a couple of quotes about boards and board chairs. And one is the Chair and the CEO must learn to dance together. And neither can stray very far from each other's gaze or proceed independently. [00:17:42] Vonna Laue: Yeah, I would agree with that. Those are two key roles in the organization. And you have to, I'll use the same analogy I used before. You better be pulling in the same direction. The Board Chair has a responsibility to be the voice on behalf of the Board, and so I feel like that's an important responsibility that it's not Vonna's opinion that I take into there. I seek wise counsel from my board and want to make sure that when I'm having conversations with my CEO, that either the board is informed about those things or that, I'm able to speak on their behalf. But on the day-to-day interactions, if you will, or week to week, those two leaders better be aligned. [00:18:30] Tommy Thomas: Another one, Dr. Rebecca Basinger. Governing boards are charged with safeguarding an institution's ability to fulfill its mission with economic vitality. To this I add, responsibility for tending to the soul of the institution. [00:18:50] Vonna Laue: In an institution like World Vision, the soul of that organization to me is very critical. And it's interesting. I chair the World Vision U. S. Board. I have the privilege of also sitting on the World Vision International Board because we are a federated model and there are World Vision offices around the world  and Christ at the center is one of them. It's our foremost principle by which we operate. And, if that's not lived out in the board, the tone at the top is critical for everything. And so, I would agree that the soul of the organization starts with tone at the top. [00:19:32] Tommy Thomas: So, it's been my experience that the good news about having successful executives on the board is they're used to getting things done. The flip side is that they might have a hard time taking off their CEO hat and putting on their board member hat at a board meeting. Have you experienced that? [00:19:53] Vonna Laue:  To the credit of the current board that I have at World Vision US, I would say I don't struggle with that there. There is a spirit of collaboration by God's grace that exists within there. And so, people are willing to share their experiences and their opinions, but they're not sold on them. They're very open. Have I experienced it in other boards? Absolutely. And one of the challenges that I see in the nonprofit sector, Tommy, is that there are experienced board members that come in with for profit expertise. [00:20:32] Vonna Laue: Which, 90 percent of the time, is fantastic. 10 percent of the time can be challenging because there are unique things. I say if you don't believe there are uniquenesses, go ask the local Ford dealership how many contributions they've received this month. You know what I mean? They don't get any of those, right. There are some unique things. There are some unique laws and regulations that either do apply specifically or specifically don't apply. And so in some board settings, I've seen where for profit leaders have a hard time taking off that hat and being able to understand the nuances that are involved in a nonprofit organization, but really, it comes down to the spirit of humility and service. [00:21:21] Vonna Laue: And one of the things that when you contacted me first, I believe that you couched it this way and said, would you be willing to be considered for board service at World Vision? And I tell people that I responded to you, I'm willing to be considered, let me pray about it. And that I said, that's not trying to buy time or push you off. I legitimately meant that because I think that you have to be passionate about a ministry or a nonprofit board that you're going to serve on. And if you don't have that passion for that particular organization, then you find another one that you can be, because I think that passion is really important in the boardroom. [00:22:07] Tommy Thomas: You and I are old enough to remember the Enron crisis and of course much has been written about it. One writer said that certainly part of the problem was that the board didn't dig deep enough into the financial situation at Enron. How do you ensure that your board members are asking the right questions? Of course, you've been a CPA, that might be an easier thing than another board chair, but I think that is critical. [00:22:35] Vonna Laue: It is, and there are so many things that we have to balance in board member selection. We want to balance Equity and Diversity. We want to balance, within that age. I just encouraged us earlier to consider younger board members and what they can contribute. One of the considerations is what is the expertise that they bring to the board and what skill sets do we need on the board? And the reason for that is to ask those right questions. If I've got an audit committee and I don't have anyone that understands audit and finance, that's problematic. And there may be some that just said, of course I can tell you I have presented to a number of audit and finance committees in my career. [00:23:27] Vonna Laue: That they didn't have an auditor finance expert in that entire committee. In this day and age, we're looking at who has digital experience, who has cybersecurity, or IT experience, and it changes over time. The needs of the board today are different from the needs of the board 10 or 20 years ago. So that's a challenge to us individually as board members to continue growing and learning. But it's also a challenge to us to make sure that we're recruiting the right board members. So, to your point, you've got people in there that can ask the questions of, is this a good investment? Is there a legal liability associated with this? [00:24:10] Vonna Laue: Have we got the right protections in place? What's the end result of this potentially going to be? We don't make a short-sighted decision that we're looking at the long-term impact. What are the reputational impacts of these? We have two roles on the World Vision U. S. board that are assigned at every board meeting. And one of those is the keeper of the core documents. So that person is responsible throughout the discussions to be considering how that discussion or that particular agenda item is tied to our core documents, if there's any implications, and one of them is the responsible skeptic, and that is a formal role that person is assigned in those board meetings, and as we're having discussion, we want somebody to be identified that will challenge and say, wait a minute, back up. [00:25:01] Vonna Laue: Let's not get into group think here. What about, and that they know that they're not just putting their opinion in their hat that they've got this particular role. So, I think those two roles have been really helpful in our setting for our board. [00:25:15] Tommy Thomas: I spoke to Dr. Linda Livingstone at Baylor.  I was asking her about this. I didn't use the word responsible skeptic. I guess I had another phrase, but she said, they usually show up. You don't have to appoint them. [00:25:28] Vonna Laue: I heard that. I heard it when she said that. And I laughed and I thought, that's a healthy board actually, for the most part, because Proverbs talks about iron sharpens iron, and that is really helpful if people are willing to speak up. Oftentimes, we're Christian nice and we don't want to challenge each other and we need to be able to speak up and make sure that all of the facts, all of the considerations are on the table. [00:25:58] Tommy Thomas: I sense that probably the role or the function of risk management has increased for a board over the last decade or two. Am I making a good observation or not? [00:26:13] Vonna Laue: The only thing I would say is that might be the understatement of the year, potentially. Absolutely. The risks that we face and maybe I'm going to oversimplify this, but I think, they used to be known, right? You've got trip hazards. That's a physical risk. You've got the risk of fraud. You put controls in place. Those were known risks. What we face now, to me, are a lot of the unknown risks. What's happening in the cyber world? What's happening with opinions? Reputational risk has increased so significantly, and because it's so easy, and I'll be careful to say this is Vonna's opinion, so please don't ascribe this to any organization that I represent, but, because it's so easy on social media and other media, avenues to state an opinion, and it becomes a perceived fact. [00:27:12] Vonna Laue: Thank you. And for an organization to then have to battle something, that's a reputational risk that we have to consider. And yet we can't control, which is a difficult place to be. [00:27:26] Tommy Thomas: Do y'all have a time in each board meeting where you talk about external threats or is that relegated to your CEO to bring those to the board?  How does that work? [00:27:38] Vonna Laue: Practically? Many of the organizations that I'm associated with have an enterprise risk management or a risk assessment process, and there are people within the organization that are specifically identified that are responsible for that. Not that they're responsible for the risks, but they're responsible to make sure that it's updated. The way that I tend to do it with some organizations is, brainstorm across the organization, pulling together leaders from the board. Leaders from different ministries or departments, people in different functional departments, IT, HR, finance, and just let them brainstorm. What are all the risks? [00:28:23] Vonna Laue: I've done this a few times and it's pretty common that you end up with 600-700 risks that are identified and then categorizing those into whatever categories are helpful for you. But things like regulatory, legal, physical, financial, reputational, operational risks. And then once you do that, you can identify what's the likelihood this would happen. And if it did happen, what would the impact be? So low, moderate and high. And that helps you distinguish, like, how significant are these risks? And when you've got them categorized like that, it stands out, like who the owner of that is, right? Those legal risks are either an in-house or an outsourced general counsel, your physical risks might be the facilities people, whoever, but having an owner for those. High and moderate risks should be mitigated through measures such as insurance, internal controls, or policies. High risks, in particular, should be continuously monitored by leaders and the board, to ensure they are well understood and managed effectively. [00:29:16] Vonna Laue: The high and moderate risks ought to have some mitigating measures in place, whether it's insurance or internal controls or policies. And to me, the high risks should always be in front of the leaders and the board. Usually that's an annual process that they would be taking a look at that to make sure that we understand these risks. We're aware of them because we're responsible for them and we also are aware of the mitigating controls that management has put in place and those seem reasonable. So, I don't necessarily feel like at every meeting, sometimes there are committees. World Vision International, I serve on the audit and risk committee. [00:29:59] Vonna Laue: We have it as a specific component of that committee. So every one of our committee meetings, there is a risk component to that we are looking at. But definitely on an annual basis, that ought to be a discussion that boards are having regardless of the size of the organization. +++++++++++++++++ [00:30:15] Tommy Thomas: This could probably be a whole podcast, but maybe we'll probably limit it. But I would be remiss if I didn't ask an artificial intelligence question. I guess that could fall under risk. It could fall under opportunity. Your thoughts as you sit at 50,000 feet looking down on the nonprofit sector, what's going to happen in the coming years that we need to be aware of? [00:30:41] Vonna Laue: I think it's all of the above. It's opportunity. It's risk. I mentioned earlier that boards are encountering different things now than they did 10 years ago, and they have to be learning individually. And as a board, this is a perfect example of that. We, as board members, have to be learning. We have to adjust to and understand this new technology. Actually, our board had the privilege of sitting in an hour-long session this past week with an AI expert. I think we all walked out of there a little terrified and a little concerned about what this looks like. And that's a great place to be, right? [00:31:25] Vonna Laue: Because it means we know that we've got to lean in. I remember a number of years ago, I think it was about 2006, Walt Wilson, who started Global Media Outreach, he had been one of the initial executives at Apple, and I remember sitting with Walt at that time, and he said, the day will come where you just use apps for everything. And I was like, what's an app? And he's like oh, you'll just push a button. And then it'll bring up all the information for that company. And you'll do everything on this app. And I don't know Walt's age exactly, but I would say he was probably in his early seventies at that time. And I was like, that's crazy. [00:32:10] Vonna Laue: And then I realized, now, he was absolutely correct. And he had the foresight to see that. And I tend to believe that's where we will be with AI. This is here. We better figure out how to harness it. We better figure out how to use it well.  Organizations are just starting to formulate AI policies, what they will allow, what they won't allow. I fully believe that we'll look back on those initial policies five years from now and laugh at ourselves. But we've got to start somewhere and the ability that it will give us and the doors that it opens. I don't think we should be scared of it. But I think that we have a responsibility to do it. Worry less about being supplanted by a chatbot and more about being outpaced by someone adept at using AI to drive corporate success. [00:32:51] Tommy Thomas: I read an article recently and the guy was talking and he said people shouldn't be worried about being replaced by a chat box or something.  They should be more worried about being replaced by somebody who knows how to use artificial intelligence to the advantage of the corporation. [00:33:09] Vonna Laue: Oh, I think that's a great line because the functions that it will be able to take the place of you probably don't need to worry about those, but yeah, the technology that goes along with it, make sure that you're one that knows that. And I'm getting articles from fellow board members on a pretty consistent basis. Some of our staff liaisons in the organizations I serve, there is a lot of information that's out there and I would just encourage any of the board members don't be overwhelmed by it. We all have other responsibilities, right? [00:33:46] Vonna Laue: None of us are going to go get a PhD in AI. But as we start to gain an awareness, I think we'll understand better what our responsibility might be as board members. [00:33:59] Tommy Thomas: Let's try to bring this thing to a close. I've taken probably more of your time than you had allocated for me today and I'm grateful.  If you could get a do over in life, what would that be? [00:34:12] Vonna Laue: I mentioned earlier, there were probably a couple of meetings, partner meetings that I wish had gone differently. Quite honestly, Tommy, that's the only do over I might take, but I am very thankful to have lived my life without regrets. And that, to your point about failures and everything else, there's value to be had in the experiences that we have encountered, and to lose out on those. I'd probably just mess something else up. So, I think maybe I'll keep the ones that I have. [00:34:50] Tommy Thomas: Do you have an “I wish I had started this earlier moment in your life?” [00:34:57] Vonna Laue: Oh, I would say the one that I've done often on, that I wish that I was more consistent about, is just memorizing scripture. So I know a lot of people that are good at that. I have gone back to that, incorporating that on a daily basis. And if that's where the foundation of my decision making is coming from, I wish that I had a little bit more of that ingrained. [00:35:25] Tommy Thomas: Final question. If you could give a younger version of yourself a piece of advice, what would it be? [00:35:32] Vonna Laue: I learned this a little bit later. It wasn't too late in life, but one of the most important leadership principles that I feel like I've learned over the years, I'd love to just close with for your group, for your audience. And I think it applies that I would have wanted to know this. As soon as I could, and that is when we have a person in a position that they're not succeeding in, we often in the Christian ministry world feel like we're Christians, we can't let somebody go and I believe that when God calls us to something, he doesn't call us to be miserable or ill equipped for it. [00:36:18] Vonna Laue: And so, when we keep somebody in a position that they are not competent or capable of, we're doing a disservice to them. To two people in two organizations, at least we're doing a disservice to that person because we're keeping them where they can't thrive. And it's very hard to make a change. When I stepped away from the managing partner role, that was incredibly difficult. Most of us don't like change. And so even if we're not happy, and fulfilled in a position, it's still comfortable. So, we're doing a disservice to them. We're doing a disservice to our organization because we don't have the right person in the job. We're doing a disservice to whoever ought to be in that position because we haven't opened it up for them to be there. [00:37:03] Vonna Laue: And we're doing a disservice to whatever organization this person is supposed to work for because we haven't released them to go do that. And so I guess I'd come full circle with something I said earlier, and that is people are the key to what we do, throughout life, in personal matters and professional matters. And so, stewarding the people in our life well is something that I think we all need to do. And it would have been great if I'd have learned that earlier on as well.   Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO Glad I Didn't Know: Lessons Learned Through Life's Challenges and Unexpected Blessings   Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Follow Tommy on LinkedIn Follow Vonna on LinkedIn   Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify

[00:00:00] John Sommerville: I was in the elevator at General Mills one day with the president of our division. There were about eight of us in the elevator and the elevator stopped between two floors. And I was the one closest to the buttons. And I had no idea what to do. The elevator stuck. The president of the division reached around me, opened up the little box with the telephone in it, and called on the telephone to get the building supervisor to come and get us out. And what I learned from that is when you have a problem, do something, just get started.  And I was standing there frozen what in the world do we do? And he took action. ++++++++++++++++++++ [00:00:38] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is John Somerville. I first met John when JobfitMatters conducted the search that brought Alec Hill to the presidency of InterVarsity. John was a board member of InterVarsity at the time. He's had an amazing career. After getting his MBA from Indiana University, John took a marketing position for General Mills and worked there for 11 years. If you've ever noticed the heart on a box of Cheerios, you've seen some of John's marketing skills at work. He conceived and implemented the major heart-healthy campaign for Cheerios, which landed them the American Heart Association Certification. Following his time at General Mills, he was in senior leadership at Wooddale Church. Then he planted the City Church in Minneapolis. In 2021, he assumed the role of Vice President of Finance and Operations at The University of Northwestern - St. Paul. Let's pick up on my conversation with John Somerville. [00:01:44] Tommy Thomas:  Before we dive too deep into your professional career, I'd like to go back to your childhood, and what are some, maybe two or three, remembrances that you have that have been fairly formative in your life? [00:02:01] John Sommerville:  Even as an elementary school kid, I was always organizing things. And I remember that I was fascinated with the Olympics in 1968, at 10 years old. I was completely blown away by the whole experience of watching it on television. So, I decided that our block needed an Olympics. And so I made up events. We had a 40-yard dash. It was the first three houses on the block. Our house was the second house. So, I organized that. We had a high jump pit that we put leaves in. And we did this Olympics, and there were probably about a dozen kids from a couple of blocks that came over, and we made medals and all that sort of thing. And so I had this desire to organize things, to get things moving. And then one of the things I later looked back on when I became a pastor and started a church was an experience I had in high school. The church I went to was a really good church but they didn't have a youth group that was vital and really engaging. And as a sophomore in high school, I wrote a proposal to the church board. I went to their board meeting, and I presented this proposal, and I told them that we should hire someone, should buy a pop machine. I put it in the fellowship hall of the church. We should get a pool table. That's by the way, where the whole thing went off the rails. But I wrote this proposal on how to make the group a better group and the board didn't go for it. I have always had a tendency to look at a problem or an opportunity and try to make something happen. That was part of who I was, even as a kid. I ended up becoming involved in Youth for Christ had a thing called Campus Life, and that was for my junior and senior year in high school, I got involved in. I had a tendency to look at a problem or an opportunity and try to make something happen. That was part of who I was, even as a kid. So, I look back as I think about what was I like. I was reflective, I read, but I also wanted things to happen. [00:03:54] Tommy Thomas: What was the greatest gift that you think your parents gave you? [00:03:55] John Sommerville: Curiosity. My parents are still living there in their mid-90s. My father was the earliest intellectual influence in my life. He's a reader and a thinker and read lots of books to us, and encouraged us to do the same. My mother was a nurse and very interested in nature. She used to have a bird book that sat in the kitchen. She'd look at birds out of the backyard and identify them. And so, I think that kind of curiosity openness to the world, and learning was one of the greatest gifts that my parents gave me. And their faith. Maybe that goes without saying, but watching them have quiet times, time with God, the way that their faith was really integrated into all of their lives. Those were big influences on me as a young one growing up. [00:04:41] Tommy Thomas: So, did you have a job in high school? In high school, I worked at a grocery store and on a farm.  As I look back, I think that's when I realized that I needed a work ethic. [00:04:43] John Sommerville: I worked for a year at a grocery store which was interesting. As I look back, I think that's when I realized that you needed a work ethic. I worked with a lot of folks who were around my age who were mostly lazy. I worked on a farm for a summer. Years later, the farmer that I worked for went to the church that I grew up in. And I'd gone to college, and I think I was probably a sophomore or junior in college, and he called me over and he introduced me to all of his friends. And he said I'm the reason this kid went to college. In other words, working on the farm gave me a hunger for learning and maybe doing something different. I don't know if that's a direct, but it's somewhat true. So those were a couple of experiences that I had working during high school. [00:05:28] Tommy Thomas:  When you went to college, how did you decide on your major? [00:05:33] John Sommerville:  My father was a practical person. And he said, I want you to get something that you can get a job with. But I was also interested in history and philosophy and other sorts of things like that. So, I found a major, it was Personnel Administration, what you now call HR or People Management. And it allowed me to take classes in the business school, so I could take accounting and finance and other things like that. And also take liberal arts classes. I took classical Greek, for example, as a language. At the time, I was wrestling with the direction that my life might take, and I had two ideas. One was to work in business. The other was to work in the church, and I had to try to discern that, and it wasn't just what I took in the classroom, but some of the experiences I had outside that helped guide me in that direction, to figure that out, and ironically, I ended up doing both as part of my career. [00:06:27] Tommy Thomas:  You graduated from college, you went on to get your MBA at Indiana. What do you remember about the first time you managed people? [00:06:34] John Sommerville: I think I'd been at General Mills about two years when I was promoted to a manager position. And what I remember is being an individual contributor. You're only responsible for yourself, just getting your own work done. But all of a sudden, you've got to direct the energies and work of others. And I remember pretty quickly understanding that there were some things I needed to do and one was to give everybody clear direction. I always appreciated people who supervised me, giving me a clear idea of what they were expecting. As a manager, I realized that if I gave vague directions, I got vague output.  I realized that I needed to give clear direction. And I realized pretty quickly that if I gave vague directions, I got vague output. And so, I learned that I needed to be able to give clear direction. And then I think the idea of both affirmation and correction is woven together. So, see people when they're doing something that they're doing right. My parents used to say that they tried to catch us as children doing the right thing and then reinforce that. I think that principle applies as well as quickly correcting. And so those are some principles that I think early on that I learned and it's hard to be consistent in those. Sometimes you just assume people are going to do the right thing and know what to do.  But those are things that I kept coming back to in those early years. [00:07:44] Tommy Thomas: What was the highlight at General Mills when you think back on that chapter of your life? [00:07:48] John Sommerville:  I had a really great experience in the organization. I'll give you a couple. The very first thing I was assigned to, I was brand new, I was put on a a project team to develop a boxed salad.  We ended up calling it Suddenly Salad. It was a boxed pasta salad mix. At the time what they were looking at was trends in food where pasta salads were starting to appear in restaurants and other places, and they wanted to take advantage of that, and I worked in the division that made Hamburger Helper and some of the Betty Crocker potatoes, and so they had the technologies available, so in six months this project team developed that product and I was brand new on it, so I had a lower level role. But it was so much fun to work and see this project on a fast track become a reality. I spent quite a bit of time in new products and in new markets when I worked in Europe. That new product development thing was really significant. The other was the opportunity I had when I was the Marketing Manager of Cheerios. My wife and I lived in Switzerland for three years where I worked for a joint venture for General Mills and Nestle. When I came back, I was assigned to be the Marketing Manager of Cheerios, and the brand was declining in volume. And what we found serendipitously is that oats have the effect of reducing cholesterol. And we did a clinical study that led to the ability to make a claim around the heart healthiness and the cholesterol-reducing properties of oats. And introduced that, the heart-shaped bowl on the box came out at that time. Very satisfying experience. I left right as that was being implemented, but it had led to a real resurgence of that brand. So had great satisfaction about being involved with others in that process. [00:09:37] Tommy Thomas: What do you think of all the things you learned in the private sector, what did you take to the nonprofit sector that you think has helped you the most? There is an underappreciation in some ministry organizations and churches and others for the disciplines of financial management, and operational leadership of getting systems and structures to work for you. [00:09:49] John Sommerville: I think there is an underappreciation in some ministry organizations and churches and others for the disciplines of financial management, operational leadership, of getting systems and structures to work for you. For example, in starting a church, one of the things that I was committed to, even when we were relatively small, was the idea of building systems and structures that made our work more efficient, more effective, and allowed us to do more of what we really needed to do.  Working with people doing services and that sort of thing. ++++++++++++++++++++++ [00:10:23] Tommy Thomas: Let's stay in your private sector world for another minute or two, were there mentors there that kind of took you under the belt and what did that look like? [00:10:31] John Sommerville: I've had a number of mentors in my life and one of the most important was a guy named Leith Anderson who was the Senior Pastor at Wooddale at the time, who later became the President of the National Association of Evangelicals. And Leith, early on when I was brand new in the church, showed an interest in me and gave me some opportunities for leadership, being on boards and task forces, and things like that. And at one point, he asked me if we could get together. We went to a local restaurant one evening after a meeting for pie, and he asked me, what are you going to do with the rest of your life? And at the time, my vision was I'd work until I was 55. Then I'll quit and go work for a ministry organization. And his question for me was, why not now? Now, it would be five years before I left General Mills. But his point was, you don't have to wait all that time maybe it would be a sooner deal. And it did turn out to be that. But I think with mentors, I think we need multiple mentors in our lives. I've heard one say that if you have just one mentor, you become a clone. If you have two, you're confused. If you have 10, you become wise, and your mentors don't all have to be living. I think one of my mentors is George Marshall, the general who became the architect of the Marshall Plan and the great diplomat. I've read a number of books about him and those are examples of people that I admire, and their lives, in one sense or another, have shaped me. [00:11:58] Tommy Thomas: What's the most ambitious project you've ever taken, and how did it come out? [00:12:03] John Sommerville: I think starting a church. There's something about entrepreneurs, church planters, and others. They are naive and they often don't understand what they're taking on. And I think that is good. Because sometimes it's more daunting maybe than you realize. And I think deciding that we could start a church in an established neighborhood that was not particularly hospitable to an Orthodox expression of Christian faith was probably the most daunting thing. And looking back on it, I wonder how in the world we got the courage to do it. But that was probably the most, and I believe today, even today, and probably will be for the rest of my life, the most significant, important thing that I have given my life to. And I believe brought great satisfaction.  But it was not easy. [00:13:00] Tommy Thomas: I'd like for you to respond to this quote “A group is a bunch of people in an elevator. A team is a bunch of people in the elevator, but the elevator is broken”. [00:13:11] John Sommerville: I'll tell you a story and it's an elevator story. I was in the elevator at General Mills one day with the president of our division. There were about eight of us in the elevator and the elevator stopped between two floors. And I was the one closest to the buttons. And I had no idea what to do. The elevator stuck. And the president of the division reached around me and opened up the little box with the telephone in it and called on the telephone to get the building supervisor to come and get us out. And what I learned from that is when you have a problem, do something, just get started. And I was standing there frozen. What in the world do we do? And he took action. And I think what he did is he led us, now obviously he was the one doing something. But it could have been somebody else, but he just did something. And I think teams need to just start moving. I don't know if that's exactly what you're looking for, but that was certainly very memorable. [00:14:10] Tommy Thomas: I want to ask you some generational difference questions and there's no right or wrong answer. I talked to somebody the other day and he said, I don't think there's very much difference in the generations and he had a good rationale. And then I've talked to others. I talked to Tom Lynn at InterVarsity and Tom had some thoughts on leading different generations. You've obviously, in your four environments, led different generations and now you're working with different generations at the University of Northwestern St. Paul. Maybe when you think about at least broad categories of Boomers, Gen Xers, Millennials, and Gen Z, any observations on the differences of them working as a team together? [00:14:51] John Sommerville: I would fall in between your two guests. I think that we sometimes confuse generational differences for life stages. In other words, 20s have a certain set of concerns, and we sometimes forget the cycle we went through as we grow up. There are some things that I sometimes hear when people are reading an article about generational differences, and I think you're just thinking about life stages. There are some things that I sometimes hear when people are reading an article about generational differences, and I think you're just thinking about life stages, but I also think there are things that are different from one generation to another. My parents were raised in the Great Depression, and the way that they function and still function in their mid-90s now is around the idea of scarcity. They're very concerned, very frugal, and they have really a scarcity mindset. Boomers tend to have more of an abundance mindset because that's what they grew up with. And then as you move forward, different generations with things playing out different ways. And I'm watching this now with college students and those that are in their early 20s, just the influence of the cell phone and technology. There are distinct differences and I think we need to adapt what we do to be able to communicate well with each new generation. And sometimes that's being sensitive and learning ways that can contextualize what it is we're trying to communicate or work through with them. I think those are really important. [00:16:09] Tommy Thomas: What about creativity and innovation between the generations? [00:16:12] John Sommerville: I've thought so much about that. I will say that I think that creativity and innovation is a mindset that has to, in an organization, has to be nurtured and fostered. Some people tend to be more creative than others. They think in more novel ways and other people just need to be given the freedom to actually do that. And that's one of the things that leaders are not always effective at because they tend to believe they know the right answers and they tend to not let people think long enough and hard enough about a new idea to be able to see where it might go. And I think the older leaders, the more impatient they get, and at the same time, the more nurturing they need to get of ideas that maybe they might initially disagree with but might have fruit. [00:17:00] Tommy Thomas: I want to go to resilience. Most of us hope we learn something about resilience during the pandemic. I want to give you a couple of definitions. It's too strong of a word but maybe not. So the University of Massachusetts Global says resilience is not a one-time action. It's a sustained effort to adapt, survive, and thrive in times of stress and uncertainty. Forbes -  Resilience provides the ability to recover quickly from change, hardship, or misfortune. It's the product of a broad perspective. Your thoughts? [00:17:36] John Sommerville: There's a Greek word, hupomene sometimes it's translated steadfast endurance or endurance in the New Testament, I mentioned earlier, that I took Classical Greek as an undergrad. That word really stuck with me, and the reason why is that it's translated sometimes in a very flat way in English, and yet the Greek word has this idea of persistence, of resilience, of tenacity, of sustained effort toward something that is, it's an undaunted kind of approach to life. And I think that this is undervalued by many because I think the assumption is that if it's something that I'm gifted to do or it's something that needs to be done, it will be easy. And I found that most things worth doing are like pushing water or pushing a rock uphill. It's just most things that are worth doing are hard. Woody Allen once said that 85% of success is just showing up. And I think that part of what we have to do as leaders and as people of character is just keep showing up. And so t resilience is a very important character quality. ++++++++++++++++ Most of us are afraid to fail because we don't like to be embarrassed. [00:18:50] Tommy Thomas:  It's been said that we learn most from our failures. And if that's the truth, or if that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail? [00:18:57] John Sommerville: I think because we don't like to be embarrassed. We don't like to invest in something that we feel, the equivalent of the oil industry person drilling a dry hole. We don't like effort that seems to not go anywhere. And so, I think sometimes we need to remember that risking things is the only way we're actually going to achieve things. And sometimes you have to fail several times before things actually go right, and I think sometimes we're just way too afraid of finding ourselves in a place where we might feel embarrassed, or we wasted time. I think the other thing is that we sometimes think that the consequences of failure are permanent, and they aren't. We're often in a place in life where we at least know one thing that doesn't work. So, then we can try something else and figure out what does work. [00:19:53] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to authenticity. There's a great power in authenticity.  Arthur Wilde said, be yourself, everyone else is already taken. Saint Catherine of Siena said, be who God meant you to be and you will set the world on fire. What lessons have you learned about authenticity over these four chapters of your life? We need to be transparent with people enough that they can see what actually is going on rather than trying to put on some persona. [00:20:12] John Sommerville:  I would say a couple of things. First of all, we need to be transparent with people enough that they can see what actually is going on rather than trying to put on some persona. And so, authenticity means in part that we're in a place where we're letting people see who we are and not trying to fake something, the transparency is very important. Now, the one thing I'll say about authenticity is authenticity can also be an excuse. In other words, authenticity can be an excuse for immaturity. We need to understand that being authentic can mean also that we might be in sin. One of the things that we need to do as Christians is to be made into the likeness of Christ, which means there may be character qualities or things that might be authentically us. But also, maybe sin, so part of it is to let people see enough inside of us, but at the same time recognize that authenticity whether it's anger or greed or impatience may be things that God needs to work on and process of sanctification needs to be the exercised in those areas. [00:21:24] Tommy Thomas: You've observed a lot of leaders. Over the years, what do you think is the most dangerous behavior that tends to derail a leader's career? [00:21:33] John Sommerville: I believe character. I think we're in a generation where we are so impressed with competence, so impressed with people who have outsized skills in one way or another that we have forgotten that those skills, if not tempered by character, if not shaped by character, not channeled through character, can end up being toxic or worse.And I really think that character is really the foundation. It's not all of it, because we need competence, but competence alone is not enough. [00:22:07] Tommy Thomas: Maybe a little lighter question.   We've been diving deep into some serious thoughts here. If you were a judge on a nonprofit version of the shark tank and people were coming to you for early-stage investments in their nonprofits, what questions do you need answers to before you open your purse? [00:22:25] John Sommerville:  I think the first question is, what need do you believe exists that your ministry or organization will serve? And how is what you're doing, how will that serve that need? Because if there's a true need I think many things follow from that. And if you have something unique that will really help meet that need, then the organization needs to exist. So, I think those are big questions. And by the way, the other thing that I often ask is, who else is doing this? What I find is that there are people who are pioneers who do something for the very first time, and we write books about those people, but often what we need is that the people who are innovators are just being novel without actually being effective and so it's important to understand the need, be able to meet the need, and then also give examples of how that works. You may have a unique spin on it, but the core of it needs to be channeled into an area that others have been successful in the past. [00:23:31] Tommy Thomas: If you were creating a dashboard to get at the non-profit's organizational health, what is your dashboard going to measure? [00:23:38] John Sommerville: I think that the effectiveness of whatever you're doing, whatever effort you're doing, is it effective? If you're taking care of orphans, or if you're feeding the hungry, or if you're ministering to ex-offenders who are trying to reintegrate into society, is what you're doing effective? Can you show that? Can you measure that? The other is economic viability. Many people are very motivated. They're compassionate people, but there does need to be some economic foundations and economic viability for what you're doing. And that can be achieved in a lot of different ways, but that needs to be there because otherwise an under-resourced organization will not be effective long term. [00:24:20] Tommy Thomas:  Give me some of those illustrations of economic viability. [00:24:24] John Sommerville: One thing that organizations operate in a lot of different ways, sometimes there's a revenue stream that helps to fund the ministry. And that could be, I'm familiar with an organization here that works with high school students through the schools and they have figured out how to work with school districts to provide programming and content that is useful and effective. It's a Christian organization, but it works with public schools and does a very effective job. They figured out a way to balance philanthropic revenue and revenue from many of their programs. And they've done it very effectively for 30 years. Other organizations are purely philanthropic. And they need to develop a core base of people that are interested in the ministry and constantly replenish that. But showing effectiveness, and developing a sense of passion, not only for the people who work for the organization but those who are connected as donors. And then there are ministries that really do function as businesses, per se, a publishing organization or something like that may generate almost all its revenue from some kind of sales or revenue, but still, it needs to be mission-driven.  There are a lot of different ways to think about that. +++++++++++++++++++++ Tommy Thomas Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website. www.JobfitMatters.com/podcast. If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com.   Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.   Links & Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas   Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Follow Tommy on LinkedIn

[00:00:00] Alvin Sanders: The hardest decision I had to make concerning my own personal level of leadership was the decision that I made in 2007 to leave the pastorate and to work for the denomination. And the thing that got me was the President who unfortunately has passed away, Bill Hamill, he asked me the question, he said, Alvin, do you want to influence one church or do you want to influence 1500 churches? And honestly, I had to ask to myself, and I said I want to influence 1500 churches. ​+++++++++++++++++++++++ [00:00:34] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Dr. Alvin Sanders. On his LinkedIn Profile it says, President and CEO of World Impact, Adjunct Seminary Professor, Advocate for Redemptive Poverty Work, Husband, Father, Author, Mentor, and Loves Sports. I imagine we could do a podcast episode on all those titles, particularly the one about sports. But today I want to focus on Alvin's role as the President and CEO of World Impact, and in particular their work as an advocate for redemptive poverty. Alvin, give us your elevator speech on World Impact.  [00:01:17] Alvin Sanders: World Impact started about 52 years ago and we're trying to solve the problem that 95% of the world's pastors have no formal ministry training. We believe that we provide effective ministry training that's affordable and accessible as part of the solution to that problem. And our theory of change is that trained urban pastors lead to healthier churches, which leads to them impacting their community toward flourishing.  [00:01:45] Tommy Thomas: Good. You got that one down. [00:01:46] Alvin Sanders: That's good. I don't know if that was 30 seconds or not. I got it.  [00:01:50] Tommy Thomas: To our listeners, Alvin and I met, at least for me, in an unusual way. I was conducting the CEO search for the City Gospel Mission in Cincinnati, and I did my LinkedIn research and I liked Alvin's background. I thought he might be a good candidate. So, I called him, and he said, no, he was pretty committed to World Impact, but then he turned the tables on me. He says we need a couple of additional cabinet members. Would you be interested in helping us? And next thing I knew Alvin had recruited me to help him with two searches. I didn't have to submit a proposal or anything.  So, Alvin, I guess I owe you a big thank you for trusting us with that work. [00:02:26] Alvin Sanders:  You did an excellent job. I have two awesome team members, and we're a better organization because of your work.  [00:02:34] Tommy Thomas: Thank you. Take me into a little bit of your background. I'm always curious how people got their start.  What do you remember about your childhood that maybe has contributed to the man you are today? [00:02:44] Alvin Sanders: Yeah, so I'm a military brat. My father was in the Air Force for 30 years and we lived globally. For instance, I spent four years in Okinawa, Japan during my formative language years, and I don't remember this, but I've been told that I used to be able to speak fluent Japanese, so I wish that I could conjure that up again, but I can't. But that had a big effect on me. Because I grew up what's called a third culture kid. And you can look that term up, but it's essentially a person who could see into different cultures while not being in them, I would say you grow up organically, culturally flexible. That's probably the easiest way to describe it. And so that led me to ministry. I've been in ministry for 32 years. I started in ministry at 21. Worked at a variety of places but they always had a connection to the urban context of making disciples there. And I worked with the Evangelical Free Church of America planting an inner-city church in the city of Cincinnati. I worked for the aforementioned City Gospel Mission before that under their president who's no longer with them, Roger Howell. And then I also worked for the Evangelical Free Church of America denomination, running their All-People initiative. And then I came the World Impact as a Senior Vice President in 2015 and then became president in 2017.  And this is where I hang my hat.  [00:04:06] Tommy Thomas: So, growing up all over the world, what was high school like for you?  [00:04:10] Alvin Sanders: My dad ended up retiring in Columbus, Ohio, so that's where I spent most of my time. And that's where I went to high school. [00:04:17] Tommy Thomas: And when you got to college, how'd you pick a major? [00:04:21] Alvin Sanders: The first major that I picked was Physical Therapy, and the first college that I went to was Bowling Green State University near Toledo, Ohio. And while on campus I got very involved with a campus ministry. None of the major ones, but just a small one that was started by a fellow student. And it was during that time I said, man, I think God's calling me to do this full time. So, I ended up transferring to Cincinnati Christian University and as they say, the rest is history. [00:04:52] Tommy Thomas: What's something that people might be surprised to know about you that maybe is not on your LinkedIn profile or not in any writing anywhere? [00:05:01] Alvin Sanders: Oh, let's see. That I'm a homebody. Much to my wife's chagrin. A perfect day for me is doing nothing. It is sitting in my recliner downstairs with food and drink and watching good sports or good news stories or whatever, but I love to do nothing.  [00:05:27] Tommy Thomas: Now that would come as a surprise just from my working with you because in our relationship, you've been out and about and upfront and returning from a speaking engagement or headed to one.  [00:05:38] Alvin Sanders: Yes, and I'm sure that's probably what plays into those times when I don't have anything to do. I cherish them.  [00:05:43] Tommy Thomas: Take me back to your first management job when you actually had somebody that you were responsible for. What do you remember about that? [00:05:51] Alvin Sanders: The crazy thing, it was both a blessing and a curse, was the first ministry position I've ever held. I had pretty significant responsibilities. And I learned I can be an intense person.  God bless the first people that I had to supervise and the first volunteers I had to direct because with a military and athletic background and an intense personality – I'm sure those people got fried. I was probably a marine minister; I would say so to speak. And what I remember is God's providence and blessing the success of the things that I did. And I also had a lot of learning lessons about what it means to really invest and treat people with respect and dignity.  [00:06:44] Tommy Thomas:  You've had a long career in ministry and I'm sure you've had times that have “tested your mettle”. Maybe can you take us into one of those and what you learned or maybe didn't learn from it?  [00:06:55] Alvin Sanders:  The biggest, one of those things, Tommy, that tested my mettle was when me and my wife planted at a church in inner-city Cincinnati. About six months into the church planting experience, there was a police shooting of a young black teenager by a white police officer. This was spring of 2001 and the neighborhood in which we planted a church where the shooting took place exploded in civil disobedience. And you want to talk about the crucible of ministry and trying to figure out what to do. We were young church planters. Six months in just trying to get a church together and draw people, and then all of a sudden, this thing happens. And we learned to depend upon God and that Proverbs, I think it's Proverbs 3:5-6, trust in Lord and all that you do and lean not on your own understanding. In all thy ways, acknowledge him and he shall direct your paths because there's no strategic plan for planting a church in the middle of a race riot. There just isn't. So, we really learned what it means to trust the Lord and invest in people deeply, invest in a neighborhood deeply so that we can both improve the lives and hearts of the people as well as the neighborhood and pursue the common good.  And so, that changed the trajectory of my life.  [00:08:15] Tommy Thomas: So yeah, pursuing the common good. What did that look like, could you take us into how you executed that?  [00:08:22] Alvin Sanders: Yes. It starts with the philosophical bent of you have to be deeply committed to the people of the neighborhood and the place that it's in. There are no walls to the church.  The people who are typically in communities of poverty, folk come in there and they don't have a deep commitment to them. They come and go as they please. They don't have a long-term commitment to them. And so, in terms of the people, it's just a biblical process of, evangelism, discipleship, helping them become better people in Christ. But in terms of commitment to place we utilized very heavily a concept called asset-based community development, or ABCD, where you map out the assets of a community. Because when it comes to communities of poverty, in a lot of places, people always look at what's wrong with the community. Asset-based community development says every community has things that are wrong. What's right with the community? And look at what's right with the community and see how you can be. How you can fill the glass up, so to speak. If the glass is half full or half empty is the negative stuff half full? Is the water in the glass? So how do you raise the level of water, so to speak? And so, when we did our asset-based mapping, we saw that what the community did not have was many services for the working poor. Yeah, because most of the people who are in poverty are working. They're not the folks standing on the corner saying, please, brother, can you spare a dime? They're not those people. Not that those people aren't in poverty, but that's not what the face of poverty looks like. The face of poverty in the United States looks like a single mother with kids who's working a service industry job. And so, we really began a ministry towards that group. Working with my wife to establish a food pantry and health check center in the back part of the church. So, we established a food pantry that people could utilize once a month because that's really all they needed once we did our surveying. And that helped them stretch their check. They could come in, they could get the groceries, and they maybe had money for three weeks, but then this would be the fourth week. And then also while they were there, we partnered with Xavier University with their nursing student program, and nursing students would be in the back and they could get they can get diabetes check and things of that nature. And then if they had any health issues, we would refer them down the street to a local health clinic. And then we also had a person, one of our staff members who would sit in the back and say, hey - anybody have any spiritual concerns or any spiritual or anything, you want us to pray for this, that or the other, or just see general life advice from the Word then they could go stop there.  So, we had a three-stop shop where people could come get their food, they could get their health checked, and then they can be ministered to spiritually as well. [00:11:28] Tommy Thomas: Obviously most of my experience with you has been in the hiring mode. And I probably know a little bit of the answer to this next question. But for people who wonder what a CEO looks for in senior leadership, take us into some of the qualities that you're looking for in leaders. [00:11:43] Alvin Sanders: Yes. Basically, and I don't remember which guru I got this from, or what book I read it from, so it's not original to me. But there are two main characteristics that I always look for in my team. Can they do the job right and can they do the job well? Can they do the job right has to do with their moral character and whether or not they fit into our core values at World Impact. So we screened for that, and then we hired you all to screen for can they do the job well. That has to do with skillsets and the abilities that people may have in order to do the job description that we have designed for that particular job.  Can they do the job right? Can they do the job well? Those are the two big things that I look for in my team to contribute to the leading of World Impact. [00:12:35] Tommy Thomas: I remember, and yours was the first, and I guess so far the only client I've had that used this thing, I think you called it a circle of voices. And I thought that was cool. And every listener may use it in their work. I don't know. But take us into that. [00:12:49] Alvin Sanders: When we're making major decisions, we don't do it for every decision. We do it only for major decisions. We do a circle of voices and again, I don't remember where I picked this up from, but what we do is whatever the decision that we have to make, we give to everybody around the table, you have to speak for at least two minutes, but no more than five minutes and give your perspective on what decision we need to make and why, and it's like you're in court, you're a lawyer, make your case for why, what do we, what do you think we need to do and why? And nobody else can speak while that person is speaking. And then I'm literally the timekeeper. So you only get five minutes. You must speak for at least two minutes, but you only get five. And then after each person has spoken, then we open the floor up for dialogue and debate and come to a collaborative decision.  [00:13:52] Tommy Thomas: On the flip side of that, and I hadn't been with you on this, but what goes into how you finally decide somebody's got to go and what have you seen the best way to do it?  [00:14:02] Alvin Sanders: We try to err on the side of grace. And we believe in weekly feedback. So, our supervisors theoretically are coaches. So theoretically, if we say you're to supervise someone, it's because we believe that you can coach that person to be a better person who contributes to the mission of our organization. So, if someone is constantly not living up to what we desire for them to do within our organization, then we utilize the tool that everybody else utilizes a Performance Improvement Plan or PIP. And some people think, once I've been PIPPED that's just the time period that you have for me to work until I have to find another job. But that's not what we utilize it for. Hopefully, we really want to say, hey, we want you to improve. And there have been people that we have put on Performance Improvement Plans that they actually emerged out of that, and they kept going. And then after a PIP, if you still aren't doing what you need to do, then we just have a brutally honest conversation with the person. Just say, hey, it's not working out here for you. It's time for you to transition out. We always work hard to get people to self-select out. And 90 - 95% of the time, that's what happens. We are long-suffering. We practice the spiritual discipline of patience. It's no surprises. The only people who get fired from our organization are people who do egregious violations of our core values. If you do an egregious violation of our core values, then you must go, because we've communicated our core values to you. Core values to us are not just some booklet that sits on a shelf. We actually live them. We do things to catalyze them. So, most people that get fired, they've egregiously violated, but the overwhelming majority of people who are World Impact transition out. If they're not, we help them figure out how to transition out and self-select. [00:16:15] Tommy Thomas:  You mentioned you were in senior leadership fairly early on. Who were some of the mentors in your life and how did that play out? [00:16:23] Alvin Sanders: Yeah, I've had several mentors the aforementioned City Gospel Mission and Roger Howell. He was my first boss who really helped shape and mold me into the person I am today. When I worked in Chicago for two years and I worked at a place called Circle Urban Ministry, Glen Kayron was someone who invested in me deeply. When I did my PhD studies Dr. Michael Dantley, who's a prominent African American pastor in the city of Cincinnati, as well as he was a professor at Miami University, and I studied under him. He played a key role in my development as well.  [00:16:59] Tommy Thomas:   Did these people see something in you, and of course I guess your bosses, they can understand that. But did mentors see something in you and seek you out, or did you see something in them and figured you'd be better if you could sit under their tutelage? [00:17:16] Alvin Sanders: Well, it's a combination of both. And I actually left one out that he's probably the person who saw the most in me at the beginning, and that's a gentleman ny name of Dr. Jonathan Burnham, who his church, Hope Evangelical Free Church, was the parent church of my church, River of Life church. And he saw me as a tremendous leader. Way more than I did. I had leadership characteristics, but I was extremely raw and rough around the edges, and Jonathan Burnham really invested in me and my family and helped us when we planted River of Life Church. And those seven, eight years I spent under his tutelage were tremendous. [00:17:56] Tommy Thomas: I never phrased this question exactly right, but I guess I'm looking for when you recognized, and maybe you acknowledged that you did have leadership potential and some of those rough edges began to smooth and you felt more comfortable moving.  Do you remember that?  [00:18:11] Alvin Sanders:  I'm arrogant enough to have never thought I wasn't a leader.  It was never about that for me. What it was about for me was getting more polished. If I was in the room, I was going to lead, that's just the way it was going to go because that's the way my personality type I'm told, so the old Myers Briggs, I am an ENTJ, and I'm told that's a characteristic of that personality type that we either lead or we influence. The head leaders, we take our ball, and we go home. That's basically our personality type. Okay. So, for me, it was a matter of how to be a good godly leader. How to get polished to be able to do that instead of just leading rough shot and wild.  [00:18:56] Tommy Thomas: Thinking about your team do y'all have any team-building exercises that you use that you found effective as you try to bring this group together? [00:19:05] Alvin Sanders: We have a meeting rhythm as a team. We get together for 90 minutes every four or five weeks, and then once a quarter we do a two-and-a-half day offsite. And the offsite is a combination of relationship building as well as business items. During our 90-minute time together, we always start our meetings off by sharing one good thing. What's one good thing professionally or personally that's happened to us since our last time together? We also always have prayer time together. And during our offsites, we have extended sharing, and extended prayer because I have a saying that I care much more about who you are as a person than what you do. And we live that. And we live that out. And that's the biggest thing that we do as an executive team in order to, for us to be glued to one another.  [00:20:03] Tommy Thomas: So y'all have operated as a virtual organization from a long time ago. And obviously, it's worked, or you wouldn't be doing it.  Tell us a little bit about that.  [00:20:13] Alvin Sanders: Yes. We were virtual before it was cool to be virtual. And the prior president to me, Efrem Smith, he's the one who implemented that. And then when I came in being virtual can be done, but you have to be very intentional about relationship building, like the things that I just talked about. Operating a virtual ministry can be done but you must be VERY intentional about relationship building. We have monthly prayer times where we have all staff get on Zoom for an hour, and half that hour we spend in prayer, both large group and small group. And in the other half, we highlight two staff members where we just do some lighthearted questions and answers and let everybody get to know one another. Once a year we gather all staff together for one day of team meetings, and then two and a half days of really just fun. And investing in one another and encouraging one another around one of our core values. Because we have five core values. So, we do a theme each year.  So, we do a lot of intentional relationship-building. And we just experimented with something that we're probably going to keep and that it's in the spring. We've had regional gatherings, so we have staff spread off all across the country and we gather staff for a day in Cincinnati, a day in Wichita, Kansas, and a day in Long Beach. And based on where you lived, you went to one of those locations and we had some training and team-building time. So really to sum it all up, it's intentional relationship building.  [00:21:45] Tommy Thomas: What was the biggest lesson on the positive front that your team took out of Covid relative to management and leadership? [00:21:54] Alvin Sanders: Wow. The biggest lesson. [00:22:00] Tommy Thomas: Something that you might take forward. You might think COVID is gone, but we're still going to probably do that.  [00:22:04] Alvin Sanders: Actually, you know what? It's what we just talked about because we weren't doing all that before covid. We were virtual, but we weren't gathering, we were not utilizing the tool of technology like we do now, and we were not gathering like we do now. [00:22:21] Tommy Thomas: I thought early on that Covid was bound to have some kind of silver lining and usually everybody that I talked to, there's some kind of silver lining for it. [00:22:32] Alvin Sanders: And that's what it was because we weren't we started praying online together because this is a serious time. We want to pray for our country and pray for each other. Let's get online once a month and all pray together. And it was like, you know what? This is pretty awesome. Let's keep doing it.  [00:22:47] Tommy Thomas: What's the most dangerous behavior or trait that you've seen derail a leader's career? [00:22:53] Alvin Sanders: The number one thing I think that either makes or derails a leader's career is emotional intelligence. Having self-awareness of your strengths and your weaknesses and adjusting accordingly. Being able to look at others and not see them as an object in your way or just, not as human beings and people actually caring about them and their work and their contribution. The number one thing I think that either makes or derails a leader's career is emotional intelligence. Having self-awareness of your strengths and your weaknesses and adjusting accordingly. As well as them as people, individually, people who do not have good emotional intelligence. Eventually, the house burns down. That's what I've seen.  [00:23:39] Tommy Thomas:   It's been said that we learn the most from our failures or our mistakes. If that's true, why is it that most of us are so afraid to fail? [00:23:48] Alvin Sanders: I don't think you can learn, Tommy, unless you do fail. I have a weird goal and that's to fail every day. Because if I'm not making mistakes, that means I'm not pushing myself to be the best person I could be.  Because no one knows everything. The way you get to learn things is you have to fail at it first. It's impossible to know something until you have some failures. It's impossible to know something until you have some failures, and then in those failures, you say, okay, what can I pick up and learn from this? And then you move forward.  [00:24:19] Tommy Thomas:  I was talking to Alec Hill, the President Emeritus of InterVarsity, or maybe it was Rich Stearns.  I forget which one. But anyway, they said, “Never trust a leader who doesn't have a limp”.  [00:24:31] Alvin Sanders: Yeah - Amen on that.  [00:24:33] Tommy Thomas:  I know you're a busy man and yet you've talked about how you like to rest and enjoy. How do you and your wife handle work-life balance in your leadership role?  You know what, I'm contrarian on that. I think it's impossible to have work-life balance. [00:24:45] Alvin Sanders: You know what, I'm contrarian on that. I think it's impossible to have work-life balance. I don't like to look at it that way. I like to look at it as seasons. There are seasons of busyness and then there are seasons of Sabbath and rest. And that's how I view my life and that's how my wife and I do that now. We're empty nesters now. Yeah, we're much less busy than we used to be. We're still busy. But I think like I said I'm a contrarian and I believe that it's impossible to have a work-life balance or I just never figured out how to do it. It's just,  look, I live my life in 90 days sprints, right? And I go, okay, honey, this is what my 90 days is going to look like. The month of July, not going to see you much. But look here, in mid-August, I'm taking 10 days off. We'll be together. So it's quarter-like to me, it's seasons. And it's seasons of super busyness and then seasons where you're not so busy and when you're not so busy, you make sure to take time to connect relationally with the people who are most important to you. [00:25:52] Tommy Thomas: What's the hardest decision you've had to make in leadership?  [00:26:03] Alvin Sanders: There's been a ton. The hardest decision I had to make concerning my own personal level of leadership was the decision that I made in 2007 to leave the pastorate and work for the denomination. And the thing that got me was the President who unfortunately has passed away, Bill Hamill, he asked me the question, he said, Alvin, do you want to influence one church or do you want to influence 1500 churches? And honestly, I had to ask myself and I said, “I want to influence 1500 churches”. And that was a super tough decision because our church, the Church River of Life. We still go there, by the way, even though we don't pastor there. Me and my wife says that's our third child. We have two wonderful daughters and River of Life. We basically feel like that's our third child. So, it was literally like leaving your child to someone else's care when we left that.  [00:27:03] Tommy Thomas: You worked for a great guy in Bill Hamill. I had the privilege of knowing him over the years and it was always good. I always loved my time with Bill. [00:27:11] Alvin Sanders: Great man. A great man of God. [00:27:14] Tommy Thomas:  Changing up maybe on a little bit lighter note, if you were a judge on a nonprofit version of Shark Tank and you had deep pockets, what questions would you have to have solid answers for before you would back one of these startups?  [00:27:33] Alvin Sanders: I don't know about specific questions, but I know the things that I would screen for. I would screen for the person - do they know who they are and what they want to do? Essentially, that's where my big questions would be about. Do they know who are they solidly? Can they solidly define who they are as a person and as an individual? And can they solidly describe where they think they want to go?  And take then, therefore, take the organization that they're leading.  [00:28:06] Tommy Thomas:  On the same line of thought, if you were developing a dashboard for a nonprofit to get a look at their health, what are some of your dials going to be?  [00:28:19] Alvin Sanders: I would want to look at how they do with staff development and stability. What kind of people are they hiring? What kind of things are these people doing? Are they organized correctly? The org chart, things of that nature. I would also want to look at their systems and how they do things and what are their processes and how do they get things done. What are the tools that they use? Are they correctly dialed into technology and things of that nature to help them achieve their mission? And as well as the obvious one is financially, how are they doing financially? What's their revenue generation look like? Are they built? Really, if you take those things together, then you can make a determination.  Are they built for sustainability for the long haul?  [00:29:07] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back to a time and tell your younger self one thing, what would that be? [00:29:12] Alvin Sanders: Relax. Relax. Not that serious. Slow down. Why are you running so hard? Where are you trying to go? Stop and smell the roses. [00:29:26] Tommy Thomas: If you had a do-over in your career, what would it be? [00:29:30] Alvin Sanders: I would say in the generality, there were probably opportunities. Here let me give a little bit of context. Okay. God is very merciful to me in that there are opportunities that I turned down, which for whatever reason, circle back to me. And then the second or third time, I recognized it for the opportunity that it was, and I took it. So, the one do over, I would say just speaking in generalities, is being able to recognize opportunities for what they are right off the bat. And not having God have to circle back for me.  [00:30:24] Tommy Thomas: I'm thankful to Alvin for taking time from his schedule to join us today. After we stopped recording. I told him that we could have talked for another hour. I really enjoyed the time with him. I'll post links to Alvin's work with world impact in the show notes. As well as links to some of the books that he has written.  [00:30:24] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website –https://jobfitmatters.com/podcast/. If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com.   Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing.   Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.  If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode until then stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.    Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas Alvin Sanders - World Impact Uncommon Church: Community Transformation for the Common Good by Alvin Sanders Redemptive Poverty Work by Alvin Sanders Bridging the Diversity Gap: Leading Toward God's Multi-Ethnic Kingdom by Alvin Sanders   Connect Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Tommy's LinkedIn Profile Alvin's LinkedIn Profile

[00:00:00] Alec Hill: There is something remarkable when you put it on paper, how you create a distance from yourself. It objectifies it, and you're able to stay away from it a little bit. And this has been shown in research out of the University of Texas. So, I'm a real believer in journaling.  It has been a constant and continues to be a regular outlet for me with my pain, with my lamentations, with my anger. And it releases me. I don't know. It's just been a discipline for what now - 50 plus years and it's one of God's gifts to me.  ++++++++++++++++ [00:00:31] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Alec Hill, the President Emeritus of InterVarsity USA.  For regular listeners, you may remember Alec from Episodes 18 and 19 where he and a former board chair at InterVarsity discussed the CEO/ Board Chair working relationship. Alec was President of InterVarsity for 14 years before retiring for health-related reasons. When I recruited him to be the President of InterVarsity, he was the Dean of the School of Business and Economics at Seattle Pacific University. Alec took his law degree from the University of Washington.  Alec, welcome back to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership. [00:01:06] Alec Hill: It's always good to be with you.  [00:01:10] Tommy Thomas:  Episodes 18 and 19. Those seem like a long time ago. [00:01:14] Alec Hill: To you, time is, it has a different clip for me, but yeah, for you it's, you're up to a hundred something now.  [00:01:20] Tommy Thomas: We'll, yeah, I think this we'll be 92 or 93, and yeah, we'll hit Episode 100 sometime in early August. I was trying to remember that quote. That guy told me one time about the early episodes. He said, “The bad news was they probably wouldn't be very good, but the good news was you won't have very many listeners then either”. So, I don't know, some of the early episodes might have been like that. Thank you for coming back. I read the article that you posted on the Christian Leadership Alliance Blog and I was intrigued by it knowing a little bit about your history there, I thought I have to get Alec back.  Maybe take us into that.  As I remember, the name of the article was Finding Gold in Manure. [00:01:59] Alec Hill: Yeah, so the image is when we lose a wedding ring down the sink, we dive in, and even if it goes down the toilet, we go in because the ring is so valuable. So the metaphor is, as leaders, when we go through really bad experiences, I mean we think back on the two or three worst experiences we've ever had as leaders, whether they are our fault or not. And the temptation is just to let the ring go. And not dive, do the dive. But what I've learned is that when you go and you find the ring maybe 80% of its draws are manure, but 20% of it is pure gold. And so often in our worst moments in the suffering that we have we find great meaning. And if we don't learn those lessons at that point in time they'll come back and bite us again.  “If we pause and reflect long enough, pain is a great teacher. Our characters can be transformed more through a day of suffering than a month of study” [00:02:42] Tommy Thomas: I think one of your quotes was “If we pause and reflect long enough, pain is a great teacher. Our characters can be transformed more through a day of suffering than a month of study” [00:02:53] Alec Hill:   Yeah, I think that's really true. And I say that, I wrote that as an academic, right? So, I believe in study, but clearly if we, you by the way, you can learn poorly from pain if pain, if you reacted adversely to it. If you deny it. Or if you're triumphal in some ways over it, if you don't walk right through it head on it's a totally negative experience. But if you actually can redeem the pain is awful. Pain sucks. I'm a two-time cancer survivor, including a bone marrow transplant. I know about pain. So pain is no fun. And likewise, leadership failures. And when people accuse you of being incompetent or immoral that's no fun. But there's a side to this where you have to learn the lessons from that, and then you become a better person and a better leader.  [00:03:37] Tommy Thomas: So why do you think it's so hard for us to reflect on past painful situations?  [00:03:43] Alec Hill: Oh my goodness. I think we hate pain. We're wired to hate pain. Part of my bone marrow transplant was a spinal tap, and I was reflecting on that the other day. And a spinal tap is one of the worst procedures you can ever have, right? They're going in through your back with a needle and they're trying not to hit nerves, and of course they do. I don't want to think about the spinal tap, but what the spinal tap told the doctors was that I didn't have certain conditions so they were able to go ahead with the treatment. And it was a positive treatment with a lot of pain. And I think, again, that's not a bad image here for these. And what I would've asked our listeners to think about is the one worst experience you've ever had as a leader where everything went wrong, where everybody thought you were an idiot or an immoral person. And they lost confidence in you when you came in a room you had, they looked like they had knives out and they were suspicious of you. And that's the moment that we want to capture in this podcast.  [00:04:33] Tommy Thomas: But take me back to some of the other painful experiences. A man with as much leadership as you've had, both at Seattle Pacific and InterVarsity no doubt has had several painful days.  [00:04:44] Alec Hill: Two of my worst moments or months, or even in one case years, one involved, and this is a common one, hiring someone to my senior team who didn't work out. And the person was popular and well liked and I had to let the person go. And then when I let the person go, I couldn't tell all my reasons for doing so when people ask questions. So, you look like you are incompetent in making the hire. You are incompetent in making the dismissal. You're being disingenuous because you're withholding information that few people feel they have the right to have. And you feel like a failure on all counts. I think that particular situation lasted for several months when I just was underwater. And people again lost confidence in me. I think the second one was a more dramatic one, and it involved more people conflict between a senior leader and a director below a report to that person and it blew up. It involved race and gender and all sorts of things, and I didn't particularly handle it well in terms of how I processed and dealt with it, and that pain lasted for a year and a half. And my sort of, I think the sense of my incompetence and how I handled it I felt acutely was the first time I'd gone to see a counselor. I was having dreams. It was one of those completely underwater experiences. That was worse than a spinal tap. If I could put it that way. It was worse. And feeling responsible for allowing people to get hurt that if I'd handled things differently there would've been a lot less hurt in other people's lives. And this is what, 15-20 years ago. I still feel this acutely to this day. So again, my hypothesis, Tommy, is that every leader, every senior leader has a situation like that, that when you ask them what is the main pain point, the worst moment of your leadership time, they have one of these. And that's the kind of situation where you. Your temptation is just to bar the door. Never think about it, just deny it. You don't deny it, but you just relegate it. But the thing is, I learned a lot about myself both good and bad. Through that, I learned about the positives, I learned about my resilience. I came to work every day when I felt like people were extremely doubting me. And I didn't know I had that kind of resilience. So that's one positive aspect of it.  [00:07:00] Tommy Thomas: So you mentioned you went to the counselor for the first time. Was that a hard thing to do to make that appointment? [00:07:05] Alec Hill:  No, I'm not proud about, I don't, I'm not macho in the sense that I wouldn't go to a counselor. I just never felt that kind of need. But I was so far out of it and self-doubting. The disequilibrium in my life was so great. I didn't even know where the ground was, and so I just needed someone to tell me I wasn't crazy, right? And to assure me that this will over time improve because I think when we get into a hopeless spiral as leaders and this is why, as Tommy, you've seen people quit. You've seen people fired there. It's dark. It's just really dark and all of the lightness when you first take a job in senior leadership, you go, why in the world did I ever do this? There's so much pain associated with these senior roles of vicarious suffering for the community. Not to mention my own mistakes that you go, this is overwhelming.  +++++++++++++++++ [00:07:59] Tommy Thomas: I read a lot of Joyce Meyers. She's a good writer. And she talks about, in one of her articles, something called the Judas Kiss Test, the test of being betrayed by friends we have loved, respected, and trusted. I guess my hunch is that most people in leadership, who've been there very long, have had an experience like this. Have you had one of those and how did you deal with it?  [00:08:20] Alec Hill: I don't know if betrayal is the word, I would use the word undercut. I have been undercut and it is a horrible feeling with someone who you reasonably expect loyalty. And a common sort of friend who goes around you to do something that is intentionally harmful. It's a smack of ice. Remember the ads where they would put the ice buckets on people and they would, the ice shower or whatever it was? That's one of those experiences. So, I think that's another example of the kind of pain that leaders experience. When who you thought was a friend turns out to be someone who's out to get you. And it's a horrible, lonely spot. And I think, I'm reading about David and King Saul now, and of course, Saul threw spears at David, he did all sorts of things, when David had done nothing wrong. And how did David handle that without killing Saul when he had the opportunity or taking revenge? That's what we, and that's the Christ-like characteristic of not being naive and saying it isn't there and not confronting it. We have to do those things, but not taking, not seeking vengeance or vindication. I think when we seek our own vindication, where we run into trouble that's the Lord's job, but we have to be resilient. We have to call it out. We have to not pretend it's not there. But when you don't, you can't, when you get in a hole, when somebody betrays you, you can't really vindicate yourself. And that's really hard. Others have to do that for you, and the Lord has to do it. I had one situation. I'm shifting gears. I'm just thinking about where my vindication probably took five years and it wasn't complete. But I did see some measure of vindication. I had one person who told me that I was a pretty bad person and a bad leader. Come back several years later and say that she understood why I did what I did. And the story on the street had changed during those years, but it was a very slow. I wanted to fix it a lot quicker. Someone explained it's like when you hit a feather pillow and it explodes and goes all over the place. It's like trying to, when your reputation is out, you're trying to recapture all those feathers and you can't, and if you're a control person, it's really hard.  [00:10:36] Tommy Thomas: You write a lot. Your articles are many, you have published two books.  But do you journal much about your inner feelings and if so, what have you learned from that?  [00:10:46] Alec Hill: It's funny you should ask because I am now transcribing all my journals from when I was 17 years old, so I'm now up to age 29 in transcribing. There were those dark nights of the soul where I would wake up at 2:00 AM and I would journal for two hours. And there is something remarkable when you put it on paper, how you create a distance from yourself. It objectifies it, and you're able to stay away from it a little bit. And this has been shown in research out of the University of Texas.  So, I'm a real believer in journaling. It has been a constant and continues to be a regular outlet for me with my pain, with my lamentations, with my anger. And it releases me. I don't know. It's just been a discipline for what now - 50 plus years and it's one of God's gifts to me.  [00:11:34] Tommy Thomas: I've been a journaler if that's the word you use for it - maybe not 50 years, but a long time. And this morning I woke up with a couple of dissonant thoughts and I just, I went to my journal and I said, I don't feel much like journaling today, and then I went through those and yeah, after about 30 minutes, I came away with maybe a little bit of distance and maybe a feeling that this is not so bad after all [00:12:00] Alec Hill: Getting back to our theme of gold and manure, one of the things that journaling does is it makes you crystallize your thoughts and put them in writing, and that's where you really learn your gold is the goal. Gold is by reflection. If we don't reflect and so many leaders aren't reflective, I'm by temperament. I'm a future-oriented person. So, reflection is hard for me, and part of the reason I journal is because it compels me. To reflect and what are the lessons learned from this last experience? [00:12:27] Tommy Thomas: I was reading, I don't know if it was a blog or what, by Bob Haskins, the President of One Hope down in Florida. And he wrote, surround yourself with people who know you better than you know yourself and will tell you the truth out of love. This is how we grow. Is the digging in manure, is that a solo act, or is that a cadre or a cohort of friends? [00:12:50] Alec Hill:  It's a very small group of trusted friends. And I'd say it's both. I do think you have to do the solo reflection as we were just talking about journaling, but clearly. I had a chief of staff who I gave total permission after every meeting, after every event, after every conference, after every conversation to tell me what he heard. And he would be quite candid with me. And it was painful. And also, I had a number two person who was my COO, and he had the same green light. And what I found is that they would often tell me things that I did or didn't do in a meeting, and I didn't always agree with them, but I gave them the green light. So, in a sense, I was increasing my level of pain and discomfort by telling these two that they could say to me whatever they saw, but I trusted them that much. And then there was a third person, a VP who I also trusted at that level. And I think you can only take so much beating on your bodies, like being boxed. It looks like being a boxer and some of these are poundings you take when you open yourself up. But the right chastisement from a friend who's loyal and trusting is again the pathway to growth. But you can only take so much of it. I think there it's a limited dose and that's what has to be a limited number of people, that kind of vulnerability. [00:14:03] Tommy Thomas:  I'm a big fan of Nicky Gumball and his Bible in One Year. I'm in that maybe not every day but fairly regular. And recently, one of his comments was,  “Confrontation is not something that I find easy. It is crucial to find the right approach, the right words for the job, or to use a golfing analogy, it's like the skill of knowing which club to use. Those who are skilled at confrontation have a great variety of approaches and words and know when and how to use the appropriate one”. What have you learned about confrontation through your many years in senior leadership? [00:14:41] Alec Hill: First of all, I'm intuitively lousy at it. I'm an angiogram three. I like to be liked. I think that I can fix every situation with charm and with compassion and pastoral skills, and when it comes to really confronting people, I had a VP who was fabulous at it, and I learned a lot from Jim.  It was really funny.  Jim had people who he corrected all the time who loved him. And I asked him How do you do that? How do you speak that kind of truth? It was because he did love them, but he also wouldn't drop bombs on them. He would chunk it out and give them criticism or confrontation in the short term. Now, I will say this, I had a bone marrow transplant eight years ago, and I am much better at confrontation now than I was before. And I think in part what the cancer taught me was life is short. Be more candid, be blunter. And my wife looks at me sometimes and she goes, is this really you? Cancer changed me for the good in this regard in that I'm a better confronter and I'm less worried about what people think of me. Because cancer changed me for the good in this regard in that I'm a better confronter and I'm less worried about what people think of me. Maybe the part of that's aging too, and I don't have a position that I have to defend anymore. I think the other thing is I had to let my reputation and sense of competence, my public competence die when I was at InterVarsity and that's liberating. It sounds crazy to think that when you give up your reputation, it's going to be freeing, but I think that process took 20 years. ++++++++++ [00:16:05] Tommy Thomas:  I know you retired from InterVarsity for health reasons. Did you find when, and I'm sure that was foremost in your mind, but I always like to ask people who've been longtime successful leaders, was much of your identity tied up in being the president of InterVarsity? [00:16:22] Alec Hill: You used the word, successful leader. I'd say I have a mixed report card, to be honest. So that's the first thing I just want to say. This is where the cancer's been a real gift. So, when you almost die, when you're expected to die, you get your identity detached from your role real quickly. And when I left, I was diagnosed, and I was gone six weeks later. And then I had a year of isolation to think about all these things. But I do think I was always aware in the 14 years at InterVarsity that my identity could be too wrapped up. So, I consciously tried to work on that issue. It was something I named, and I recognized it as a great temptation. So, I wasn't perfect, but I think I always recognized that I had been given the baton for a period of time. I would pass it off. It wasn't proprietary and this is what I did, not who, what, not who I am, not who I was. And that was liberating, but the claw of the temptation kept reaching up to grab me. I will say this, Tommy, I was surprised when I left after 14 years with the cancer, how little the identity trapped me. I didn't have this longing for the perks of the job. I didn't worry when people didn't recognize me. I think I'm so grateful to be alive. So, I think that was the gift of the cancer, right? I didn't have what a lot of leaders have when they leave, that huge identity crisis. I was trying to live, and so it just, it went underground. It didn't seem very important. And then by the time I came out, I had a different identity. Yeah so, the identity question's a tricky one for me because what would I have been like without the cancer? I don't know.  [00:17:59] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. Now I was talking recently to a pastor of a huge megachurch, and he retired maybe three years ago.  From all appearances, it seems to have been a very successful transition, and this guy has always been, in my mind, the epitome of humility, and yet he was candid enough to say, Tommy, it is disappointing that the phone doesn't ring as much anymore. That he said that, and I just, I was taken back. I thought, wow, this guy I would've thought if anybody probably had mastered that it would've been him, and yet he said, the phone doesn't ring anymore. And every now and then, that kind of bothers me.  [00:18:36] Alec Hill: Back to the gold image here. I get this bone marrow cancer and I'm in isolation. I come off disability after six months, but I can't be with people because I'm in isolation for another six months. The COO who's acting is the interim president, Jim and I agreed I would be a mentor for six months and then I could do a real job. During those six months, I had 12-14 staff from InterVarsity I was talking with monthly. And I discovered this pastoral sense of who I am. And now that's seven years ago. And so, I never got the sense of being, I worked really hard on what my new purpose was. It was the next generation of leaders, and it was investing in them. The phone rings all the time, but it's because I have, I think largely because I proactively put myself out as a mentor and the richness of these really. I have one guy who I've been with for six, seven years now who just sent me a Mariners jersey. Edgar Martinez is a gift for the year. Totally unexpected because we're both baseball fans and I just am thankful for the depth of these friendships. And then other opportunities have opened up as well. So, I do think that this is back where near death when you face mortality, there's a sense of which everything is a grace. And everything is a gift. So, I have a deeply appreciative sense and I don't feel, the glass is more than half full. It's full. It's a full glass.  +++++++++++++++++ [00:19:54] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. I want to switch to something maybe a little more global. A study by the UK Finance and Mental Health First Aid Department in England said that 83% of the City of London Financial Services employees, so they've considered changing jobs due to stress on their mental health. 83%. How prevalent do you think that might be in the nonprofit sector in the United States? [00:20:19] Alec Hill: I think it's very prevalent. I think when you have undoable missions, which you know, any mission's worth of salt is huge, it's going to transform the world. And you combine that with limited resources, which nonprofits have much more than for-profits, right? You have little money. And you have lots of responsibility which is a pivot point for depression, for feeling like a failure. When you throw into that Covid and the fragility of this new generation coming up in terms of anxiety and mental health, and I actually just wrote a piece on my own anxiety issues I think it's a recipe for problems within nonprofits. And I think generationally, each generation approaches it differently. You have the stoic generation, then you have, as I say, the more the people want to talk about it all the time, it's not going to go away. This is a real problem.  [00:21:11] Tommy Thomas: Here's a Mother Teresa quote, I'd like to respond to. Mother Teresa said, I'm not called to be successful, but I'm called to be faithful. [00:21:20] Alec Hill:  Amen. And we can't guarantee the outcomes. We can guarantee the process. I do think though, when she talks about being faithful, another word for that is accountable. And so accountable, just to be faithful doesn't mean that we're freelancing it or that we cannot think about the consequences of our actions. We are accountable but again, we are accountable to be faithful in what we do, not in exactly what happens. And I think as I reflect back, Tommy, I'm a real strategic planner and I love putting out goals and going for them. I still do, but I'm softening on this one. I think that I will say this, that I think what we said is our strategic plans were always dynamic. And that we would, by the time we were done, about a third of it would be rewritten. The mistake a lot of groups make with strategic plans is they're like cement. You're relying on the Lord for wisdom. When you write them up, you're dreaming about what can be, and then you have to hold them real loosely and you have to constantly change them and edit them. I think the sense of being faithful, that context is we're going to work together towards this common mission in these four or five areas for the next three or four years. But we don't know how it's going to turn out. Let me give you an example. At one point, InterVarsity Press, we had hoped that it would grow by X percent and then we hit the great recession of 2009 and there was no way we were even going to get back to zero, right? Because the publishing industry was underwater. We rewrote the goal. And the goal went down, I'm going to guess 35, 40% and we hit that goal well because of the external environment, because the way you don't control, you have to. So, for us, that was a feel-good, even though it was a loss.  Rather than that, we failed. [00:23:06] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that we probably learned more from our mistakes and our successes. If that's the truth, why? Why are most of us so afraid to make a mistake? [00:23:13] Alec Hill: I'll go back to the spinal tap. We hate pain. And, this false self-truth, back to identity, that we want to project a certain image of who we are and how competent we are, especially people like me. When we realize there's a gap between what we project and who we are, we can do one of two things. We can honestly admit that, or we can fake it.  And faking it really takes a toll. You've seen this, I've seen this. Leaders who are faking it are living on the edge. They become unkind, they become self-protective, they become vindictive, and they don't even recognize themselves in the mirror. So it's really hard to remain truly human as a senior leader if you're a perfectionist, if you're a control freak, if you value your public image, all those things have to die. And it is a very, and the crucifixion of those is very painful and it's ongoing.  [00:24:13] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would you say? [00:24:19] Alec Hill: I think I would say care less about what other people think. And back, this is a common theme here. Don't think so highly of yourself. Relax. Enjoy the ride. I think future-oriented people like me tend to miss the aha moments and the savoring of moments. And I've always been pretty relational, but I'm so goal-oriented and so project oriented that I think that I miss a lot of the magic and the splendor along the way. And again, cancer taught me to slow down and savor. One of the things I do daily, pretty much daily is there's a, near us, there's a city park and I'll go over, it's a five-minute walk and there's a grove of cedar trees and I just go through that cedar tree and I just stop and smell them and I touch them and I just have this sort of sense of God as creator and father. And so I think that's a new wrinkle for me, because I've always been in such a hurry.  [00:25:15] Tommy Thomas: So, what are you most excited about in life right now? [00:25:17] Alec Hill:  Grandchildren, of course. I've got three of them and they're just wonderful. I think I just turned 70 and when I first had the bone marrow transplant, I didn't know that I would live to 70 and now I'm thinking I could live to 80. The whole journey of full-body radiation chemo has taken some years off my life. So, there's this sense of living in a cycle of appreciation and joy and just being relatively healthy. That's also a real joy. I had two new hips put in a couple of years ago because the full-body radiation killed off some of the blood flow to the head of the joint, and I'm going to have more of those coming up. But I think the awe of my wife, having been married for 45 years, and grandkids.  I'd say little kids just light up. Every they're like little energy buckets. They're like batteries. And so even though I come back with a sore back and bent knees and all that stuff, it's just wonderful. So I think that's what I'm most excited about. And I think the other part on the professional side is I'm not retired. I'm working 30 hours plus a week. And one of the big changes in my life, Tommy, has been from having one activity, which is whether it's being a dean or regional director for world relief or doing InterVarsity to having this portfolio of activities. And so I've got a lot of buckets. I have multiple bosses. I teach at Regent College in Canada. I write for Tammy Heim.  There were boards in the past, and so the challenge now is, how do you take all of these activities and make them flow so that they work? And I will say this, everything I do is pretty much, it's fun, wonderful, mission-driven stuff. But what I do miss is doing a mission together with a team. And I think that's the one thing about leading is that, you see a goal, you're doing a mission and you're doing it with a group of people you love. That is really a special time. But that time has passed for me. I've accepted that, but that's probably the one thing I do miss.  [00:27:23] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice anyone's ever given you? [00:27:25] Alec Hill: I thought about this one. I think that freedom comes through surrender. And I think that this is counterintuitive, but that when we become slaves of Christ, we truly find our freedom because he's a good master. And for someone like me who likes to maintain control, it's a very hard lesson to learn. But when I do it well, there is such lightness because I'm not carrying the world. I'm not a false Messiah carrying around all the problems of the world and being responsible for them. I'm actually surrendering to the true Messiah who carries the world on his shoulders and I'm under his wings, and therefore I'm in the right flow, doing the right things, but I'm not catching all the headwinds like he does. All the crap, all the hell that he caught through the, through his who he was. And that is a really good place to be. [00:28:25] Tommy Thomas: If you were a judge or I guess one of the wealthy people on the Shark Tank and nonprofit people came to you with their ideas.  What have you got to know before you invest? [00:28:35] Alec Hill:  I would ask them if they have a coherent strategic plan.  I would ask them to describe their last executive director transition.  I would ask them do they do an annual evaluation of the executive director regularly, consistently?  I would ask them, are all your trustees giving? And describe how you handled your latest crisis. What was the crisis and how'd you handle it? Now hopefully they'd be honest and tell me, but, if they came up with a sense that they weren't doing these things well, they were sloppy. We did a review a couple of years ago, the strategic plan. Yeah. We've got five or six ideas on a sheet of paper. I'm not going to invest in that nonprofit. So I think there are basic principles of I would, I'd also ask, do you regularly survey your employees? And what do you do with that feedback? So what kind of feedback loops do you have? How are you improving yourself as an organization, as a ministry, as a board? And if they don't, if they look at you blankly, then you just go, so I'd ask some governance questions as well. But you're trying to get to culture and what they're really like in their default manner. [00:29:45] Tommy Thomas: If you were creating a dashboard that at a glance would give you some indication of the health of a nonprofit what would some of the gauges be? [00:29:53] Alec Hill: This is a great question. I think the first thing is, are there metrics tied to their strategic plan? And it sounds like a really simple thing, but it's amazing how many metrics are in these dashboards that aren't directly tied to the strategic plan goals. So that's a real basic one. My advice is if you have a board that's used a certain dashboard for years, but you have a new strategic plan, you're going to have to rewrite your dashboard. And that people, sometimes they don't, they disconnect the two. I think I would want to know is do you have three-plus months of reserves and finances? I think that's a big one, and I would want to try now, once you get over six months, it gets a little way too much. But if you're under three months in your reserves, there's instability and a scarcity mentality that can set in that's unhealthy. I want to look at debt, if there's a line of credit. I think that, obviously the finances, but those are a couple of particular things. And then I mentioned this in your earlier question, but I think the employee satisfaction survey, I, as a board member, I'd really want to look to see that there's an annual regular and I want to see what, how the employees are feeling about the organization. Boards can be too connected with the organization, but they can also be disconnected. And I think the evaluation of the executive director and employee satisfaction surveys give you a sense of the health of it. I think it should be on the President, the Executive Director's plate to be looking at that employee satisfaction survey and making changes and improving year by year.  +++++++++++++++++++ [00:31:23] Tommy Thomas: I'm grateful to Alec Hill for being our guest today. His candor and transparency are always encouraging to me. As he mentioned in the podcast, Alec is a frequent contributor to the Christian Leadership Alliance Blog. He's also a published author of two books. Living in Bonus Time: Surviving Cancer, Finding New Purpose and Just Business: Christian Ethics for the Marketplace. We have several links to Alec's writing in the show notes.  Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.   If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com.   Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing.   Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.  If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.    Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas Living in Bonus Time: Surviving Cancer, Finding New Purpose Just Business: Christian Ethics for the Marketplace InterVarsity Press - Alec Hill The Huffington Post - Alec Hill   Connect Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Tommy's LinkedIn Profile      

[00:00:00] David Stevens: I told my staff again and again that I expected them to fail. I said, if you're not failing some, you're not skating close enough to the edge, you're not taking enough risk. The best way to find out whether something's gonna work is not to sit here and talk it to death meeting after meeting. We're not gonna bet the farm on it, but let's go try it. If it doesn't work, we'll try something else.  [00:00:22] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with Dr. David Stevens. If you missed that episode, Dr. Stevens enjoyed a distinguished career as a physician and senior administrator in a medical mission hospital in Kenya. He finished his career as the CEO for the Christian Medical and Dental Association.  As is the case with many of my guests, Dr. Stevens came to me on the strong recommendation of a previous guest, Dr. Sandra Gray – President Emeritus at Asbury University. Dr. Stevens was the Board Chair when Dr. Gray was the President. Dr. Gray's suggestion was that I interview Dr. Stevens on board service and on board governance. In addition to the Asbury Board, Dr. Stevens served on the board of the Kenya Highlands Bible College GO International and the Christian Medical and Dental Association. He was the Founder and Board Chair of the National Embryo Donation Service and formed, trained, and chaired the first board of the Kanad Hospital in the United Arab Emirates.  Let's pick up the conversation where we left off last week.  [00:01:39] Tommy Thomas: I want to change over to board service here. I'm looking at the material that you've sent me, and it looks like either you're currently serving or have served on seven boards.  Tell me about your first board.  How did it show up?  [00:01:52] David Stevens: The first place I really dealt with the board was here at CMDA. We had a great board when I got on as far as the people but had a board that was not functioning very well, and we had three-day board meetings. I had a couple of trustees, and I'd say this to them if they were here today, because they'd admit to it, that they spent half the time cracking jokes and banding back and forth during board meetings. After they left, we actually had board meetings that were two days. Now they're down to a day. But I realized they were good people, but they didn't know how a board should work.  As I got involved in that, just started digging into it, as I do with things, I'm involved with how boards run. And it's very difficult for a new CEO to come in and say to a board, I don't think you know your job very well, but I worked with the Chair of the Board, and we got Bob Andringa to come in and train the board. Things improved a little bit, but they weren't moving forward. So, I actually did the rough draft of the board policy manual and brought that to them, and they worked on that and we got that approved and then the institute of board training. And so that's how I got interested in this topic.  The Board is the foundation of an organization. It's like the foundation of a house. You cannot build a solid structure unless you have a solid foundation, and the board has to know its role. That's where I got my passion to help boards. [00:03:17] David Stevens: And I've trained a lot of boards that need to take it to the next level. In fact, I've got a couple of trainings coming up in the next few months because it is just critical because things ultimately end up in problems if you don't deal with that foundational principle. So that's how I got interested in it and became a real student of it and a proponent of it to other organizations. [00:03:44] Tommy Thomas: I want to go to the policy manual piece.   When I interviewed the Chairman of the Board of InterVarsity and Alec Hill, their past president, they talked about what a great difference the policy manual had made to governance at InterVarsity. Maybe take us into that a little. It's so important that you have on paper and make the decisions of how you're gonna run and how you're gonna relate with your CEO. [00:04:05] David Stevens: It's not just how I feel about this board meeting, but what are the processes in place? And, the board's job is to build fences around the CEO.  And here are the resources you can have that's called the budget and staffing which comes out of the budget. And here's where we're going. We have a strategic plan. We've all agreed this is where we're heading. And then here's not what you can do and here's what you cannot do.  Often boards are like Mother May I.  You come and ask us, and then we'll tell you whether you can do it.  A good board says, “Here are the things you can't do”. Here are the resources. Here's where we've decided to go, and then now to get the job done. And that frees up your CEO to be innovative. In fact, I remember when we were developing so quickly, I went to the board and said, I need a development fund and a budget line. By that I meant this, if some opportunity comes along and I need to get at it quickly, I need some funds available so that I can make a decision to move forward. Then I'll bring it to you for approval. Even the point of having an executive committee meeting or whatever, but I want the ability to respond quickly when an opportunity arises. And at that time, we had three board meetings a year and things were changing very rapidly. So those types of processes. And then how does the board govern itself? What is the expectation for the trustees? What can they do? What can't they do? And how are they evaluated? That's something many boards don't do to evaluate their trustees on a periodic basis. And so, you go through all these questions and put together a board policy manual. [00:05:43] David Stevens: Ours was probably 25-30 pages long.  There were a number of appendices with other policies. But the more complex your organization is, the more critical it is to have that kind of structure in place.  The Board Policy Manual is a dynamic document, and it can be changed at any time. And it should be changed as it is added to and subtracted as you learn and as you move forward. But it's very important because your meetings run so much better and so many good things are happening in a short amount of time. [00:06:17] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to strategic planning for a minute. From your perspective, what's the board's role in strategic planning?  [00:06:24] David Stevens: The way we approach that is that we came at it from the macro level coming down, you're taking another look at the mission. We're taking our vision statement, we're looking at our key result areas and then maybe even get down a little bit lower than that, depending on how far they get to want to go below that. But then you get into your measurable objectives and all that comes back into the staff. So we've got a goal.  Maybe it's a goal that we've put together. Maybe it's a goal that the board put together or maybe we've done it together, but in this key result area.  Here's a major goal. And then here are measurable objectives and they're timed and who's gonna handle them and what departments are responsible and how they're gonna be evaluated. And they're there's a qualitative and a quantitative attached to them. And then you come back and keep track of that. And so we had a strategic planning committee of the board and every board member. At every board meeting, I took in one of those key resolved areas. We get through all of them. We grew and had so many things going on. We would go into one of those key result areas of the five key result areas and do a deep dive into the strategic planning committee.  I would also bring any new things that need to be added, and anything that needed to be changed. We set that objective too low. We set it too high. We tried it, it didn't work. Let's delete it. It's a dynamic document. It's not something you do instead on the shelf, and we'll look at this in three years or five years. It's something that you're looking at in-depth three times a year. I'm looking at it with the people that are involved in it and then bringing that to the board and here's how we're coming. [00:07:56] David Stevens: A CEO who's willing to be measured and objectively evaluated. It made the board's job easy, knowing whether I was getting the job done or not, and also got them involved in what was going on and aware of what was happening. CMDA has grown to where there are over 50 different ministries and we're working on 320 campuses across the country. We've got multiple mission outreaches; we've got public policy. We have so much more than they had when I started.  Keeping track of that is very important unless you, and difficult to do, unless you have something planned out and it changes it three times a year. We say, hey, let's go a different direction or let's do this differently.  And made it very dynamic and it was a great measuring stick.  [00:08:47] Tommy Thomas: When you think of the most effective board chair you've ever served under or watched, give me some words and phrases that describe him or her. [00:08:55] David Stevens: Involved, supportive, knew their role.  I've been in seen situations where the board chair essentially tells the CEO what they can do and what they can't do. [00:09:06] David Stevens: The chair speaks for the board - interprets policy. If something comes up and it's not clear how it applies in this situation, they can interpret it. But they have no personal authority over the CEO and that is  very critical that the board acts as a whole, not as an individual. It's someone that would contact me on the phone, Dave, how are you doing? How are you holding up? What's happening? How can I pray for you?   Let me go and visit that person that you want to make a major donor visit with. I know them. Let me take you there. Those types of things involved speaking, coming when they're in town, coming in, encouraging staff, and expressing appreciation from the board. All those types of things make a huge difference. I had probably busier board chairs than many organizations have because all my Board Chairs were practicing physicians and extremely busy. And frankly, some of them were more involved than others. And it worked fine because I've been here longer than all of them put together, but our board chairs only lasted for two years. Many organizations have chairs that are there for a long period of time. We had a board chair-elect for one year, two years as board chair, and one year as immediate past, we call them presidents and medical organizations. So that was very confusing when people would call me President, but the President really was the Chair of the Board. And so I learned to adapt to that. But the best ones were the ones that stayed involved. And were especially an encouragement and a confidant with me as the CEO. Let's go to term limits. I see that so frequently in my work. [00:10:44] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to term limits.  I see so frequently in my work - the impact of term limits or not having term limits that can have on an organization.  I'd like to get your thoughts on that. [00:10:50] David Stevens: I believe in term limits, and we have them for four-year terms. And then you can be renewed once, so a total of eight years, then you have to be off at least for one year before coming back on. And some have come back on. In fact, we've had chairs of the boards in our organization elected by our membership, which is different than most. A couple of candidates have been board members and they're elected by the constituency. We just made sure, the board did that, they put up candidates. Either one could be the chair, no matter which one they pick. So a little different in a medical organization than in a lot of organizations. But I think term limits are important. It enables you to deal with trustees that are not performing well. I've been on boards where there's a formal evaluation at the end of your term and decisions made on whether you'll continue. I remember serving as chair of the governance committee and we didn't do that with one person. They couldn't keep the confidence that we had. I'd talk to them and the chair talked to them and they still, it was a difficult situation.  The other thing that helps with dealing with that is using a grid for selecting your board. Here are the skills we need on the board, and here are the people we have, and each of them are rated according by themselves of what level of skills they have in fundraising or if it's at an educational institution, education, or you name it. [00:12:14] David Stevens: And you may have 10 or 15 different things you want on the board. It makes it easy to say, our needs have changed. We need to add someone with certain skills, and we have too much of people with this skill, but not enough fees. And that helps you when you're dealing with term limits and not renewing them to do that without offending people. But it's important to have the right skills. I remember I went on one board, and they had three judges on the board. Did you know judges aren't allowed to give legal opinions on boards? Because it's a conflict. Yeah, it's a conflict, something from a case might come up in front of them that had something to do with that. And now they've given an opinion in a public record. It was obvious. We didn't need three judges. They had three doctors. This wasn't a medical organization. They really didn't need three doctors, but they didn't have somebody with a finance background or whatever. And so having a grid, and then you can look at this and say, okay, we're looking for new board members. Here are the things we're rating low in. They have a low number. Here are the ones we're doing well in. Now here's the type of board member that we need. And then, all the other things that go in and make one of those selections. But it gives you direction and helps you with some board problems. Having an active governance committee and a governance chair of that governance committee that can continually help your board to improve. We had board training at every board meeting. Every new member that came on the board received a packet of materials they needed to read before they came. Then the chair of the board and I trained them before the board meeting started. When they came through that first board meeting, we appointed a mentor for them. It was usually the chair of the committee that we were going to serve, have them serve on, and we made sure their expertise was going to be used. We had a welcoming process.  We had them give their testimony and share that so people could get to know them better or use them as a speaker or something like that so they could become acquainted. [00:14:03] David Stevens: Made sure to call upon them and ask for their opinions. Oftentimes, board members sit back for their first, two, or three years and just listen.  We don't want that. We brought you here with your expertise. We're gonna draw you out every year. Here's a page. Are you still committed? Do you still have the time? And all those types of things that everybody signs. And then the formal evaluation at the end of four years. And then ways to show appreciation for all the hard work they're doing and then have fun together. That was one of the reasons people love coming to our board meetings at CMDA. We had a spousal program for all the spouses when they came and fun things for them to do. We had meals together. We looked for opportunities to go out. Do something fun together. If we had time, one of the most meaningful things is we would come in and the first night we were there, we'd have a nice dinner, maybe go out to eat if we were somewhere else in the country. And then we would have a prayer and share time, not about the organization, but about them as individuals. And we'd sit in a circle with board members and their spouses if they were able to come. And it was a time of drawing closer together, being involved in each other's life, praying for kids that had gone off the deep end or health issues or work situations. And it was all done in extreme confidence. And people loved coming to the board meetings.   That was the thing they valued the most when we looked at it, especially for physicians, because oftentimes you can't even share things with people at your church, even your pastor in the community where you are. I had a bad case, I had something go wrong. I'm being sued, you name it. And it was a very powerful time for us and a lot of loyalty to the organization from our trustees because of what they got out of those times together. [00:16:05] Tommy Thomas: I'd like for you to respond to this quote.  “You need a director on the board who will be a pleasant irritant. Someone who will force people to think a little differently. That's what a good board does.” [00:16:09] David Stevens:. I agree. And I can give you instances.  We were looking at something and we had one board member, a young guy, just not long on the board. He says, I just don't have peace about this. And we said, “share your concern”.   We'd had a vote and are getting ready to vote and he was the only one. Obviously, it was going to be opposed.  And a wise chair said, “Let's just each of us commit to pray about this tonight, and let's come back tomorrow”.  We came back tomorrow and the whole thing had changed. The whole thing had changed. A pleasant irritant I think is a great term.  He just had an insight that we had not thought about, and as we begin considering it, it was just, wow. Yeah, that would've been a bad decision. Yeah, the pleasant part is important. I've had a couple of board experiences with just irritants, but not pleasant. In fact, I remember, and I have to say this to his face, one of the board members of my early days, he was a contrarian.  When we voted to move, he voted not to move. He told me later, he says, oh, I thought the move was a great idea, but I just thought somebody should vote against it. He would cause long discussions and waste time and all that kind of stuff. That's the other thing about a board - You need to have a timed agenda and keep things moving and not get bogged down, and give people an opportunity to speak, but at the same time, keep it moving along or board meetings can drag on and get very little accomplished. And that's something we instituted, and it made a huge difference. The board, when I left, came in on Friday afternoon, met until Saturday noon, and we're talking about a big organization, lots of things to deal with, but they handled it in a very effective manner.  [00:17:54] Tommy Thomas: I interviewed a guy one time that had worked real closely with Dr. Ted Engstrom at World Vision.  He said that Ted would often go into a Board Meeting with the minutes already written in his mind.  He would have the agenda and what he wanted to do.  Ted was known for his effective board meetings, and I guess maybe that's how he got that done. [00:18:14] David Stevens:   I had that role at CMDA because you got busy physicians coming in and, knowing where you're hoping to take it and then being subservient. I remember when I first started, we had so many changes. This big move going on, new programs, getting into public policy, something they had never done. A week after I came on, I had brought the communications director from Samaritan's Purse who was in a prayer group with me. And I remember when I told him I was coming to CMDA, he said, David, remember me when you're coming into your kingdom. And I actually hired him before I started. He got to Dallas before I did by a day or two. And he had some background in public policy.  We had ethics statements that the ethics committee had put together on board improvement. They just stayed on the shelf and he came in and said, look, this just happened in the paper. [00:19:03] David Stevens: Why don't we set down a news release? I said I've never sent out a news release. He says I have. And I said, okay. And we were having financial problems. He said, how much is it gonna cost? 500 bucks? And we sit there discussing where we could afford the $500 and I said, send it out. And the next day the Associated Press showed up at the door and we were in the LA Times, the New York Post, you name it, all over the country. And they came in with a photographer, the whole bit. And I went to my first board meeting and told them what I had done. And they said, we had talked about that before, but we thought we'd upset members and they would quit. There are some people that don't agree with our statements on some of these issues. I said, look at me. I said it just like that.  Either you stand for something, or you stand for nothing. And for every member we lose because they don't agree with one of our ethical statements, we'll gain three. And that's what happened. And there was this great desire for our members to say we need a voice in what's going on in this country. [00:19:56] David Stevens: Physician-assisted suicide was just happening. And then there was the embryonic stem cell research course, the abortion issue, you name it.  It's one of the reasons we need this new building. I'm sitting in a studio right now, the television studio next door because we had such an impact on news, not only in this country but literally around the world, speaking out on these issues. And those types of things make a difference and really gravitated a lot of people into membership and being part of the organization and supporting it.  [00:20:30] Tommy Thomas:  Dr. Sandra Gray said when I interviewed her, she said that she didn't think that boards paid enough attention to risk management. What's your perspective on the board's involvement in risk management? [00:20:37] David Stevens: That's an interesting question.  Something that comes along with that is failing.  And I told my staff again and again that I expected them to fail. I said, if you're not failing some, you're not skating close enough to the edge, you're not taking enough risk. The best way to find out whether something's gonna work is not to sit here and talk it to death meeting after meeting. We're not gonna bet the farm on it, but let's go try it. If it doesn't work, we'll try something else. That's how I encourage them to take risks and try something new. [00:21:11] David Stevens: And that's my personality as well. My wife laughs and says, David, all somebody has to do is to tell you something's impossible and you want to go try to do it. And there's some truth in that. At the same time, I'm not reckless.  I'm not betting the whole organization on it, but the way you grow is by taking risk. So, the board needs to be aware. They need to understand what you're doing. You need to get their input on what you're doing and be willing to be subservient.   The point I was making before I got off on all the public policy stuff was that after I started moving so many different things, I remember a word going back to me that some of the board members said something in the derogative part. We tried to create, and they named a leader that he didn't have a lot of respect for in the Christian world. And, he's gonna be too big and too much because they had never had a CEO like me.   The previous ones had all been seminary trained. I was the first physician in that role. And at the next board meeting, I just said very frankly, I said, you guys are in charge. I am subservient to you. You tell me not to do something, I won't do it. If you tell me to do something, I'll do it. But my job is to move this organization forward and we're gonna have a different type of organization than you're used to because of that. And so, I made sure they knew the risk situations that we were dealing with, but I didn't hesitate to tell them, yes, we're going to do some things. And that one situation I gave you, I did one of them, and then I got permission afterward with the public policy.  [00:22:43] Tommy Thomas: Let's close out with a bit of a counseling session. Say you get a call next week from somebody who's been asked to be on a nonprofit board. They've never served on a nonprofit board before.  What kind of counsel are you giving them, or what kind of questions are you telling them they need to be sure that they have answered? [00:22:56] David Stevens:   I'd ask them first if they really believe in the mission of the organization that they're a part of. Secondly, I'd ask them, what kind of briefing materials have they given you? Do they have a board policy manual?  Do they have a strategic plan? Have you seen what this is?  Have you counted the cost?    Do you know how much time is going to be required?  Do you understand that you'll need to be financially supporting this organization at a significant level based on your means?  Are you willing to make a difference and get into this for the long term? Make sure you're not going into this for the wrong reason. It'll be great fellowship. I know these people, or it'll look good on my resume that I serve on this board. This is a serious matter that you're getting into and it's a high level of responsibility. And it's the God-ordained group that's really the foundation of this organization. Your commitment needs to be there, and you need to be all in when you get in. And then if they didn't have a background, as you said, in a board, I would ask, are they giving you orientation materials and information on what it means to be a board member?   What the expectations are, what good board members do, and all that type of thing. [00:24:04] David Stevens: And if they didn't have them, I would say, let me share some things with you because I got all that stuff. Here are the roles of the boards, the 8-10 things that they're responsible for, including praying faithfully for this board and volunteering and helping and giving and all the other things as well as the specific governance activities. I interviewed all the board members when I was chair of the governance committee at Asbury for seventeen years. And those are the type of things I ask because sometimes people get into situations for all reasons, and I don't want them to be disappointed. And I don't want us to be disappointed without laying this out. And you may not know how to do this, but we're going to teach you and you'll have ongoing training, not just in governance, but things you need to know because you're always needing to learn more as you serve as a trustee. These are new situations you're facing. New things that you need to become aware of and understand so you can make good decisions. And so, a good board is always training themselves up to the next level as well as continuing to remind themselves of good governance principles.  ######################### I hope you've enjoyed these two conversations with David Stevens. As is often the case, we barely scratched the surface of the areas we have planned to discuss. I imagine that David will make another appearance in the coming year.  Our guest next week will be Christin McClave.  I wanted Christin as a guest, but because of the breadth of experience she has with manufacturing, e-commerce industries, and the healthcare sectors.  She has worked internally at both publicly traded and privately held companies and was a shareholder and a third-generation family business. I believe that people who have led successfully in the private sector have a lot to offer a nonprofit leader. Christin is no exception.  I had just asked her to imagine that she was on a nonprofit version of Shark Tank.   What questions would she need answers to before opening her checkbook?  [00:26:10] Christin McClave: I think first of all I would really want to understand the leader's background. The team, the person, on Shark Tank, they usually have one other person standing with them. And the Sharks are very interested in where they came from, what their experiences are, how the two or the three of them got together, and the real dynamic of them working together, and what skills maybe one brings to the table, the other one fills in the gaps. I'd like to really understand that.   Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas   Connect Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Tommy's LinkedIn Profile David Stevens' LinkedIn Profile  

Peter Wehner's former office was the White House.  He served in the Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and George W. Bush administrations, as Deputy Director of Speechwriting and later Director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives for President George W. Bush. Now, he's a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times, and a contributing editor for The Atlantic. He's been in the halls of power, and he writes for publications of prominence.  So why has Peter been in exile?  In this powerful episode, Curtis talks to his old friend about what it's like to have a role in the unfolding drama of American history, to believe your most important moments are in the past, and to walk out one's faith in complicated times.Show Notes:Global Giving - Turkey and Syria Earthquake Relief Fund: Two powerful earthquakes struck Turkey and Syria early Monday morning, killing more than 19,000 people and injuring thousands more. People are trapped and homes, businesses, and critical infrastructure have been destroyed under layers of rubble. Your donation to the Turkey and Syria Earthquake Relief Fund will provide emergency relief and fuel long-term recovery efforts in Turkey and Syria.Project Hope - Save Lives in Turkey and Communities in Crisis: Devastating earthquakes in Turkey (Türkiye) and Syria have left tens of thousands of families in desperate need of medical help and basic supplies. Our emergency response team is on the ground and working quickly to save as many lives as possible.Died: Steve Hayner, Former President of InterVarsity and Columbia Seminary, Christianity Today: This is a death notice for Steve Hayner, “one of the baby-boomer generation's most influential evangelical leaders, has died. He was known for his presidency at InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and later at Columbia Theological Seminary.”Remembering Steve Hayner, InterVarsity: This reflection from Intervarsity about their former president states, “Steve became president of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship in 1988, near the end of a turbulent decade in which InterVarsity had five presidents. “Steve brought pastoral care, healing and hope to a community that had undergone much trauma,” said Alec Hill, Steve's successor and InterVarsity's current president.”"Painting As a Pastime" by Winston S. Churchill; “The perfect antidote to his 'Black Dog', a depression that blighted his working life, Churchill took to painting with gusto. Picking up a paintbrush for the first time at the age of forty, Winston Churchill found in painting a passion that was to remain his constant companion. This glorious essay exudes his compulsion for a hobby that allowed him peace during his dark days, and richly rewarded a nation with a treasure trove of work.”“President Donald Trump?  Just Say No,” by Peter Wehner: This 2015 article describes Pete's unwillingness to embrace the new GOP candidate who would ultimately become President of the United States.“The GOP and the Birther Trap,” by Peter Wehner: This 2011 Wall Street Journal article describes Wehner's take on a fringe conspiracy theory that was then front and center in American politics: the claim that President Barack Obama might not be a natural-born American citizen.“Why I Will Never Vote for Donald Trump,” by Peter Wehner.  This 2016 New York Times explains why Pete did not find Donald J. Trump suitable for the Oval Office.Creating Beauty in Exile: Mark Labberton: Mark Labberton, president of Fuller Seminary, reflects on the themes of exile in scripture and what it means to live a “faithful exilic life” in a culture shaped by fear and violence.Exile: A Conversation with N. T. Wright, Edited by James M. Scott, by N. T. Wright; According to N. T. Wright, the controlling narrative that shaped the thinking of Jesus and Paul is this: “Israel had grievously sinned against Yahweh and suffered the judgment of exile from its land. But even though Israel had returned, the majority of Jews of the second temple era regarded themselves in paradoxical exile under Roman rule and still awaiting their full restoration. It was this crisis of exile that reached its climax and resolution in the person and work of Jesus Christ.”Makoto Fujimura on Faith and Art by Dan Clendenin, Journey with Jesus: “Makoto Fujimura is a leading contemporary artist whose process driven, refractive “slow art” has been described by David Brooks of the New York Times as ‘a small rebellion against the quickening of time.' Robert Kushner, in the mid 90's, has written on Fujimura's art in Art in America this way: ‘The idea of forging a new kind of art, about hope, healing, redemption, refuge, while maintaining visual sophistication and intellectual integrity is a growing movement, one which finds Makoto Fujimura's work at the vanguard.'”The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth by Jonathan Rauch: Disinformation. Trolling. Conspiracies. Social media pile-ons. Campus intolerance. On the surface, these recent additions to our daily vocabulary appear to have little in common. But together, they are driving an epistemic crisis: a multi-front challenge to America's ability to distinguish fact from fiction and elevate truth above falsehood.   

Guest host Alec Hill interviews Dr. Roger Parrott, the President of Belhaven University. They discuss the new book: Opportunity Leadership: Stop Planning and Start Getting Results. Dr. Parrott details how planning is crippling our society, and how to trust God like a sailboat and lead like a baseball manager without fear of risks or failure.

Jennifer Hill is seeing visions of her dead immortal husband Alec. She goes to Duncan to ask him if he will avenge Alec and kill the on immortal that took his head, Kragen. Duncan agrees and leaves Jennifer with Richie. The two start making eyes at each other, but soon, we find out that Kragen didn't kill Alec Hill.....Richie did

What would happen in your organization if a top leader, as they say, was hit by a bus? Well, today we talk to a leader who was and lived to talk about it. Listen in as we learn how to prepare our organization for the next generation by investing in rising leaders. Developing future leaders is an important part of any healthy organization and is core to long-term flourishing. Who is engaged in coaching the next generation of leaders for your organization? Does the process include a focus on spiritual maturity as well as leadership principles? We'll address these topics and also consider fruitfulness in different seasons of life with our guest today.   I'm delighted to welcome Alec Hill to the podcast today. Alec is the President Emeritus of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. He is a cancer survivor and the author of Living in Bonus Time, as well as Just Business – a book on Christian ethics. Currently, Alec's focus is coaching emerging leaders.    Welcome, Alec.  Find full show notes here: https://bit.ly/s7e08alechill Share the love. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate it on Apple Podcasts and write a brief review. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-flourishing-culture-podcast/id1060724960?mt=2  By doing so, you will help spread our podcast to more listeners, and thereby help more Christian workplaces learn to build flourishing cultures. Follow our Host, Al Lopus, on Twitter https://twitter.com/allopus Follow our Host, Al Lopus, on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/allopus/Email our host at info@bcwinstitute.org 

My guests today are Burt Rosen, the CEO for Knox Area Rescue Ministries (KARM) in Knoxville, Tennessee, and his Board Chair, Dan Hurst. Today's episode is a continuation of several conversations that I plan to have with the CEO of a nonprofit and his or her Board Chair where we discuss how to build and maintain an effective CEO - Board Chair relationship. We kicked off this series with a two-episode conversation with Alec Hill, former President of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, and Rudy Hernandez, the Board Chair for Alec's last two years being president. And like Alec and Rudy, Burt and Dan shared with us their perspective for what it takes to have a successful and effective working relationship between a CEO and a Board Chair. I really appreciate that these two men took time out just before Thanksgiving to share their wealth of knowledge and experience with me. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dan and Burt. Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members you know. Enjoy!   Time Stamps [1:50] – Burt Rosen and Dan Hurst share their plans for Thanksgiving 2021 with KARM. [2:24] – Burt gives us a brief summary of what KARM was like in 2003 and compares it to what's happening today. [5:07] – Dan reveals how he got involved with KARM.  [6:38] – The process for selecting the Board Chair, according to Dan. [8:14] – We hear a story about a trip Burt took to a workshop in Dallas and the message he heard that still impacts him today.  [9:17] – The size of the board at KARM today. [11:40] – Does the board at KARM use the Carver Model for board governance?  [14:21] – How Dan and Burt use executive sessions in their board model. [15:30] – Burt talks about the process of onboarding new members to the board. [17:17] – Dan discusses the matrix they use to determine the skills, talent, and backgrounds they need for board recruitment. [18:56] – Truly knowing who the candidates for the board are is crucial to the board's success. [20:50] – KARM's board policy manual.  [21:40] – What is Burt's position on discussing bad news with the board?  [23:07] – The history of annual reviews at KARM, in Dan's perspective. [24:25] – What did Burt put in his self-evaluation? [26:25] – Burt gives his advice for a first-time CEO working with a board and Board Chair.  [28:20] – Dan gives his advice for a first-time Board Chair working with a CEO.  [31:35] – Tommy wraps up the conversation.   Links and Resources JobfitMatters – Website KARM – Website tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Follow Tommy on Twitter

Last week, we started a series of podcasts focusing on the relationship between the CEO of a nonprofit and his/her board chair.   Today's episode is a continuation of the conversation that I had last week with Alec Hill and Rudy Hernandez.  We go in-depth on the topic of the board policy manual, how InterVarsity managed through tough times, and the value of indifference. Alec served as the President of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship for over fifteen years and Rudy was his Board Chair during the last two years of his administration. I appreciate the candor of these two men.  There will be times when there is disagreement between the CEO, the board, and the board chair.  I hope this conversation sheds some light on how to handle and work through these disagreements.  Be sure to listen to Part 1 of this conversation with Alec and Rudy, and I hope you enjoy Part 2.  Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members you know. Enjoy!   Time Stamps [1:14] – We continue our conversation with Alec Hill and Rudy Hernandez, President and Board Chair of InterVarsity respectively. [1:50] – Did Rudy and Alec work together to plan board meetings? [4:38] – Rudy and Alec address whether board meetings were all business or if they made time for fellowship.  [6:49] – How did the board policy manual for InterVarsity come to pass? [7:49] – Rudy's first impression of the board policy manual. [9:15] – Alec explains how his cancer diagnosis, although sudden, didn't affect the preparedness of the board to find an interim president quickly.  [11:55] – Alec's least favorite policy.    [13:34] – What was learned during the tough times at InterVarsity? [15:10] – Rudy recalls a board meeting when the issue of faith in leadership came up. [17:40] – We learn that the students took it upon themselves to continue meeting even though InterVarsity was on probation.  [19:15] – Rudy recaps for us the decision not to comply with the Cal State University System and what came of that decision.   [19:55] – We hear about how the administration and the board handled not being in parallel with each other. [21:45] – Rudy reviews how indifference can make a successful board and CEO pairing. [24:04] – Alec provides an illustration of how indifference applies to succession.  [25:57] – Alec gives advice for first-time CEOs regarding working with the board and the board chair. [27:48] – Rudy gives advice for first-time board chairs.  [30:29] – Tommy concludes the conversation.      Links and Resources JobfitMatters – Website The New York Times and Campus Culture

A few weeks ago, my guest was David Simms, the Founder and CEO of Talanton.  You may remember David from the episode What the Harvard Business School DID NOT teach David Simms about Nonprofit Leadership.   In a follow-up conversation, I was telling David about some of my future guests and the topics we would be discussing.  It was during that call that David suggested I have a series of episodes where I have a president of a nonprofit and a chairman of the board together discussing their working relationship. Today is the first of what I hope will be several episodes using this format. Our guests today are Alec Hill and Rudy Hernandez.  Alec was the President of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship from 2001 to 2015.  Rudy was the Board Chair from July 2013 to June 2015 and he also served as the Vice-Chair for four years prior to that. I hope you enjoy Part 1 of my conversation with Alec and Rudy.  Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members you know. Enjoy!   Time Stamps [1:37] – Tommy introduces us to our topic and our guests, Alec Hill and Rudy Hernandez. [2:40] – Tommy shares his first experience getting to know Alec during the hiring process for President of InterVarsity. [3:41] – Alec shares his side of the story getting to know Tommy. [5:02] – Alec sets the context for his transition to InterVarsity. [7:15] – Rudy reveals how he came to be on the board at InterVarsity.   [10:06] – As a former President, Alec talks about what he believes makes a successful relationship between a President and a Chairman of the Board. [12:18] – Rudy gives his take on successful relationships from the Board's perspective.  [14:30] – How Alec and Rudy avoided “show and tell.” [17:07] – Rudy addresses a quote from Jeff De Cagna regarding clear expectations.  [19:20] – Alec discusses building relationships between presidents and board members outside of board calls.  [20:45] – Rudy adds how Alec responded to his annual appraisals. [23:07] –  The first month on the job, according to Alec. [23:41] – Did the annual report at InterVarsity stay static or did it grow over time?   Links and Resources JobfitMatters – Website Episode 13 - What the Harvard Business School DID NOT teach David Simms about Nonprofit Leadership “Let's Work Together” – The Sweet Sounds of a Board-CEO Partnership by Melanie Lockwood Herman and Erin Gloeckner

Cancer confronts us with our mortality. But cancer survivors find ourselves with a second chance for life. We grapple with profound questions: Why am I still here? How did I survive when others didn't? Where is God in all this? And how should I live differently now?Those who experience and survive cancer live in bonus time, a season of grace that can be both disorienting and wonderful. In this honest and hopeful account, two-time survivor Alec Hill helps readers recalibrate expectations, grapple with survivor's guilt, and steward the opportunities for new purpose and growth. As counterintuitive as it may seem, cancer can transform us emotionally and spiritually into better people.We are not the people we were before. Survivors and caregivers can discover how encountering death can bring us to a different kind of life.

Cancer confronts us with our mortality. But cancer survivors find ourselves with a second chance for life. We grapple with profound questions: Why am I still here? How did I survive when others didn't? Where is God in all this? And how should I live differently now?Those who experience and survive cancer live in bonus time, a season of grace that can be both disorienting and wonderful. In this honest and hopeful account, two-time survivor Alec Hill helps readers recalibrate expectations, grapple with survivor's guilt, and steward the opportunities for new purpose and growth. As counterintuitive as it may seem, cancer can transform us emotionally and spiritually into better people.We are not the people we were before. Survivors and caregivers can discover how encountering death can bring us to a different kind of life.

Today's podcast is about one of the most compelling life experiences a faith leader will ever face. Here how one of favorite leaders faced his own dark night and came out with a fresh, new perspective that he calls, bonus time. All of us are familiar with the phrase “moment of truth.” It's that moment when life seems to stand still and you come face-to-face with reality. My guest today, has a remarkable story to tell about how he faced his own moment of truth. What he learned through it all speaks to what matters most in life. My guest is a dear, longtime friend, Alec Hill. Alec is President Emeritus of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, and he is the author of the new book, Living in Bonus Time: Surviving Cancer, Finding New Purpose. Alec, welcome back to the Flourishing Culture Podcast. Find full show notes here https://www.bcwinstitute.org/podcast/surviving-cancer-finding-new-purpose/

Today we continue Planted, a series in which we are focusing on the foundational truths of the Christian faith…but we are going to take three weeks to explore the next truth…..eternity. We will be looking at questions like what happens when we die, who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, how do we live in light of eternity? As we begin Part 1 of this three-week look at eternity …we are excited to introduce guest speaker, Alec Hill. Alec is President Emeritus of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. In 2015, he was diagnosed with his second cancer and received a successful bone-marrow transplant. His sermon reflects the title of his new book, Living in Bonus Time: Surviving Cancer, Finding New Purpose.

Today we continue Planted, a series in which we are focusing on the foundational truths of the Christian faith…but we are going to take three weeks to explore the next truth…..eternity. We will be looking at questions like what happens when we die, who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, how do we live in light of eternity? As we begin Part 1 of this three-week look at eternity …we are excited to introduce guest speaker, Alec Hill. Alec is President Emeritus of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. In 2015, he was diagnosed with his second cancer and received a successful bone-marrow transplant. His sermon reflects the title of his new book, Living in Bonus Time: Surviving Cancer, Finding New Purpose.

Author and leader Alec Hill's life was completely changed after multiple cancer diagnosis'. Alec shares lessons learned in suffering and how we can all learn to appreciate life more and find our God-given purposes. His book is "Living in Bonus Time: Surviving Cancer, Finding New Purpose."

Author and leader Alec Hill's life was completely changed after multiple cancer diagnosis'. Alec shares lessons learned in suffering and how we can all learn to appreciate life more and find our God-given purposes. His book is "Living in Bonus Time: Surviving Cancer, Finding New Purpose."

Alec Hill is President Emeritus of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship/USA. After serving as president for 14 years, he underwent a successful bone marrow transplant (with his brother, Grant, as donor) in 2015. His current role includes mentoring, advising, teaching and external representation. Prior positions include serving as Dean of the School of Business and Economics and the Joe Hope Professor of Law and Ethics at Seattle Pacific University (SPU). He also served as Regional Director at World Relief and volunteer staff with Young Life.He has a B.A. (history) from SPU as well as graduate degrees from the University of Washington (J.D.) and SPU (M.A. Biblical Studies). Alec a trustee of Christianity Today, a member of Aspen Institute’s Religious Pluralism Project and a visiting faculty member at Regent College (Canada). He is author of Just Business: Christian Ethics for the Marketplace (IVP, with nearly 50,000 copies published in Russian, Korean, Chinese, Indonesian and English. Honors include alumnus of the year awards from Young Life, SPU and Northwest University. He has also been SPU’s professor of the year.Passions include his wife (Mary), two daughters (Laura and Carolyn), walking, reading history, travel and the ill-fated Seattle Mariners.

Alec Hill is the President Emeritus of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship USA, and author of Just Business: Christian Ethics for the Marketplace, which is now in its third edition. In Just Business, Alec explores the foundational Christian concepts of holiness, justice, and love and how they apply to business ethics.

Alec Hill is a world traveler who is just getting started on an open-ended trip. In fact, Hong Kong was his first international stop, and I was his second Couchsurfing host. We chatted about how he got here and what lies on the road ahead for him.

Alec Hill is President Emeritus of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship/USA. After serving as president for 14 years, he underwent a successful bone marrow transplant (with his brother, Grant, as donor) in 2015. His current role includes mentoring, advising, teaching and external representation. Prior positions include serving as Dean of the School of Business and Economics and the Joe Hope Professor of Law and Ethics at Seattle Pacific University (SPU). He also served as Regional Director at World Relief and volunteer staff with Young Life.He has a B.A. (history) from SPU as well as graduate degrees from the University of Washington (J.D.) and SPU (M.A. Biblical Studies). Alec a trustee of Christianity Today, a member of Aspen Institute’s Religious Pluralism Project and a visiting faculty member at Regent College (Canada). He is author of Just Business: Christian Ethics for the Marketplace (IVP, with nearly 50,000 copies published in Russian, Korean, Chinese, Indonesian and English. Honors include alumnus of the year awards from Young Life, SPU and Northwest University. He has also been SPU’s professor of the year.Passions include his wife (Mary), two daughters (Laura and Carolyn), walking, reading history, travel and the ill-fated Seattle Mariners.

How does a Christian conduct business in a way that's biblically faithful? After all, Jesus never had a 401k. Moses didn't have a search committee. Professor Alec Hill joins us to explore how we find ethics in Scripture... and bring them into the...

In the boardroom of any successful organization, the question is always asked of the CEO, “What happens if you get hit by a bus?” Certainly, CEO leadership is the board's most important responsibility and the top of mind for any chair. The follow-up question is then, “What is the succession plan?” Today, we have the rare opportunity to talk with a leader who was figuratively “hit by a bus” with the diagnosis of bone marrow cancer that required immediate, aggressive care. Alec Hill was 62 at the time and at the top of his game, having served 14 years as president of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. Within a few weeks after the diagnosis, he stepped down from his leadership role to prepare for a bone marrow transplant.  The probabilities of survival were against him. Now, just over a year later, we can celebrate God's grace and mercy as the doctors declare Alec cancer free! Alec's tenure as president was marked by one of the most significant periods of growth since InterVarsity's founding almost 75 years ago.  The InterVarsity ministry has grown to 985 chapters on 649 campuses involving more than 41,000 actively involved students and faculty.  These chapters are served by over 1,100 field staff and numerous volunteers, and annual revenues are now over $100 million. Tune into today's conversation to hear about Alec's battle with cancer, and how InterVarsity's succession planning payed off. Find the full show notes at http://blog.bcwinstitute.org/52-alec-hill-intervarsity-christian-fellowship.