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Today we're honored to share a conversation with Peter Wehner. We want to acknowledge that this conversation explores territory that is going to feel personal, political, and, probably at some points, challenging. Our hope that it creates honest and faithful wrestling where where we need it.Today, we explore what it means to follow Jesus in a time when political identities increasingly compete with religious ones. Pete argues that Christians have always faced the temptation to use the Bible to back up our own opinions rather than allowing the life of Christ to reshape us. He challenges us to consider how certainty may be blinding, explains that a healthy patriotism deepens our love of neighbor, and emphasizes the revolutionary nature of Jesus's love for those on the margins and calls us to consider what all of this means for Christians today.Pete has spent decades at the intersection of faith and politics, serving in three Republican administrations, including as a speechwriter and director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives to President George W. Bush. He's now a contributing writer for The Atlantic and The New York Times. Throughout his career, he's consistently challenged himself and others to think with moral seriousness, intellectual honesty, and Christian charity.This conversation invited us to think more deeply about where our deepest allegiances belong. We found it thoughtful, grounding, and so worthwhile, and we hope you will too. And with that, we'll jump right into our conversation with Peter Wehner.Tickets for Restore 2026 are now available, and we have a new format we think you're going to love. Get details here!
“We have a Justice Department which is now 100% the political pawn of the president,” warns Brookings senior fellow Jonathan Rauch. “He points, and they shoot.” Point and shoot. Like an old Kodak camera. Not exactly assuring words, you might think, from a man who begins our conversation looking back at the first six months of 2026 by announcing that he's significantly less alarmed than he was a year ago. Yes, Rauch acknowledges, Trump's approval ratings have sunk, the courts have pushed back, Elon Musk's DOGE rampage has petered out. And yet the pointing and the shooting goes on. Rauch, who only months ago diagnosed eighteen “distinct and unmistakable signs” of an American fascism in a much touted Atlantic piece, now admits he may never crack the Trumpian code. Every time you nail it to the wall, he says, it morphs, creeps or sails away. Like an Iranian gunboat in Hormuz. Slippery stuff for the liberal Brookings analyst. Fascism one month, McKinley-style imperialism the next, then Gilded Age plutocracy — although without those ontologically undeniable Carnegie libraries. Meanwhile, America's 250th birthday party fizzled into what Rauch calls a “damp squib,” its reflecting pool turning an opaque green rather than a clarifying blue. A muddy madness in DC. Still, amidst all the opacity, Rauch remains a defiantly optimistic liberal. In contrast with yesterday's guest, the reality hallucinating Turi Munthe, Rauch believes not only that there is an ontological reality, but that it's good. Frank Fukuyama was right, Rauch insists. Liberalism is not only the only political system that creates wealth, produces knowledge and settles disputes, but also establishes an undeniable reality. Liberals just need to relearn how to clearly tell its story. Perhaps. Though storytelling is certainly simpler when nobody is waving a gun at you. Five Takeaways • Less Alarmed, Still Scared. Rauch opens with the good news: he is significantly less alarmed than he was a year ago, when the administration was running rampage, putting agencies out of business and demanding Greenland. Approval ratings have dropped, so Trump has less political space; the courts have pushed back, so he has less judicial space; Stephen Miller has vanished from view. And then comes the caveat that gives the episode its title: the Justice Department is now 100% the political pawn of the president — he points, and they shoot — and Trump has shown that as his ratings fall, he becomes more willing, not less, to use those tools. • I May Never Crack the Code. Only months ago, Rauch diagnosed eighteen distinct and unmistakable signs of a modern American reinvention of fascism in The Atlantic. He doesn't regret the essay — but he has gone back to being confused. The Trump phenomenon is slippery: every time you nail it to the wall, it morphs, creeps or slides away. Fascism one month, McKinley-style imperialism in Venezuela the next, an Iran war with no rationale at all. Trump is such an improviser, and so disorganized, that Rauch concedes there is an element of randomness he may never decode — though he accepts Andrew's suggestion that attention is now the coin of the political realm. • Not the Gilded Age — No Carnegie Libraries. The new inequality, Rauch argues, is different in kind: a class of people almost superhuman in the wealth they control, and strangely narcissistic and nihilistic toward the broader society. The Gilded Age tycoons did some bad things, but they also built — Carnegie's libraries, Mellon's National Gallery, Rockefeller's University of Chicago, Stanford's university. This group builds rockets and sounds, in the case of Marc Andreessen, like a parody of an Ayn Rand novel — or, as Andrew corrects him, not a parody at all: they simply repeat what they've read. Even so, Rauch is not sorry to see politics reacting to a world where Musk can casually drop $300 million into a presidential race. • The Gloves-Off Court and the Accelerating Presidency. The Supreme Court term brought the clearest statement yet of the conservative agenda: Humphrey's Executor overturned after eighty years, making it far easier for presidents to fire agency heads at will; what remained of the Voting Rights Act effectively gutted; birthright citizenship surviving by a shockingly narrow margin. The imperial presidency is not new, Rauch notes — what's new is the speed. A president can now simply refuse to run a congressionally mandated agency, and the Senate, forty quietly nixed nominations notwithstanding, remains lacking in spine. The Todd Blanche nomination, he says, is the next test of whether any line exists at all. • Fukuyama Was Right — and Liberals Should Say So. Rauch sees a moral vacuum and, for the first time, a craving to fill it: the pope's AI encyclical, multi-faith clergy bearing witness in Minnesota, the Episcopalians and Latter-day Saints finding their voices. His prescription for the second half of 2026 is a liberal one, in the nineteenth-century sense — science, markets, constitutions, rule of law. Fukuyama, widely misunderstood, was right: there is only one system that produces knowledge, peace, freedom, and wealth on a global scale, and it's ours. It needs fixing — he cheers the bipartisan housing bill Trump refused to sign — but liberals must relearn how to tell that story, and how to brag. About the Guest Jonathan Rauch is a senior fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution and a contributing writer at The Atlantic. He is the author of nine books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth (2021), Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy (Yale, 2025), and Kindly Inquisitors: The New Attacks on Free Thought. A recipient of the National Magazine Award, he serves on the boards of Heterodox Academy and Civic Life, and is a longtime friend of the show. References: • Rauch's Atlantic essay identifying eighteen “distinct and unmistakable signs” of a modern American reinvention of fascism — the piece he stands by, even as he admits the phenomenon keeps morphing. • His recent essays for The UnPopulist on why liberal societies need grand stories about themselves, and why liberals must relearn how to brag about liberalism. • Jonathan Rauch and Peter Wehner in The New York Times — the earlier argument, which Rauch says still holds, that the Republican Party is more dangerous to the constitution and the rule of law than the Democratic Party. • Tim O'Reilly in The Economist — on Elon Musk building a form of capitalism that Adam Smith would hate. • Francis Fukuyama — whose widely misunderstood The End of History thesis Rauch defends: there is only one system that creates wealth, produces knowledge, and settles political disputes on a global scal...
“His descent is in a sense our descent.” — Peter Wehner on Trump at 80 Donald Trump turned 80 two weeks ago. But Peter Wehner's timely Atlantic piece, “The Apotheosis of Donald Trump,” isn't much of a birthday present. Wehner even suggests that for all Trump's madness, mayhem and malevolence, the orange octogenarian eludes Shakespearean tragedy. So no historic hall of infamy for Donald. He's too sad for that. Trump is a man, Wehner says, of borderless corruption — malicious, totally corrupt, without any visible redeeming qualities. But he isn't King Lear. Trump lacks Lear's complexity, Wehner says. Lear was a figure with whom you could have some empathy. Trump is not. He is, as Wehner notes, “a flatter figure in that sense” — but that doesn't make him any less dangerous. For the DC-based Wehner, what makes Trump more dangerous, as an octogenarian, is his decomposition. The signs are everywhere: the disinhibition intensifying, the impulsivity more easily triggered, the volatility producing a foreign policy that no ally can track or trust. His descent, Wehner warns, might be our descent. Peak Trump. The apotheosis of a pathetically malevolent madman. Just in time for the semiquincentennial, which Wehner will “celebrate” at Monticello. Five Takeaways • Trump at 80: The Apotheosis and the Decomposition: Wehner's Atlantic piece, written to mark Trump's 80th birthday, argues that what we are seeing is not just the decline of an old man but a visible decomposition in his mental and physical capacities that is making him more, not less, dangerous. The disinhibition is more intense. The impulsivity is more easily triggered. The volatility is producing a foreign policy that no ally can track or trust. Trump 2.0 is more dangerous than Trump 1.0 — and Trump 1.0 was not a walk in the park. The question is not whether this ends well. The question is how badly it ends. • Not King Lear: A Man of Borderless Corruption: Wehner uses a King Lear allusion in his Atlantic essay but hesitates to lean on it. Lear was a complicated figure — someone you could have empathy with, who saw things at the end he hadn't seen earlier. Trump is not like that. He is, as best Wehner can tell, a man of borderless corruption, malicious from head to toe, with no visible redeeming qualities — a flatter figure in the Shakespearean sense. That flatness makes the Lear parallel partial. But it does not diminish the danger. His descent is in a sense our descent. • European Mystification: When It Happens Twice, That Breaks Trust: Andrew has just returned from Europe, where every prominent journalist and historian he met was mystified by Trump. Wehner agrees: Trump is sui generis, unlike any leader the post-war world has produced. What he says is particularly disturbing is the second election. If it had happened once, Europe could have told itself it was a parenthesis. When it happens twice, that breaks trust. Even if the next president is sane and rational, there is no guarantee the following one will be. That uncertainty, Wehner says, is a real inflection point in the relationship between the United States and the rest of the world. • The Crack-Up of MAGA World: The cult-like grip Trump had on the Republican Party and the MAGA base is no longer there. His approval among Republicans has dropped from the nineties to the seventies — still high, but significant. And the fissures in MAGA world are, in Wehner's word, extraordinary: Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly and Candace Owens have broken from the movement or turned on its leadership. Marjorie Taylor Greene too. The crack-up has begun. Whether it is fast enough or decisive enough to matter remains to be seen. But the movement that once seemed invincible is showing its first serious cracks. • Monticello for the 250th: Welcoming New Immigrants: Wehner and his wife are considering spending July 4 at Monticello — Thomas Jefferson's house in Charlottesville, Virginia — where a friend has invited them to an event welcoming new American citizens and immigrants. It is, he says, going to be a birthday that is not untainted by sadness even as there will also be hope of what can still happen. Six days from the 250th, Andrew asks what Jefferson would think of Trump. Wehner: probably not terribly favourable. Probably true of most of the founders. About the Guest Peter Wehner is a Contributing Editor at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. He served as a senior policy adviser in the administrations of Presidents Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and George W. Bush. He is a frequent contributor to The New York Times. His Atlantic piece “The Apotheosis of Donald Trump” was published June 14, 2026. References: • Peter Wehner, “The Apotheosis of Donald Trump,” The Atlantic, June 14, 2026 — the piece that occasions this conversation. • Episode 2945: Samuel Moyn on Gerontocracy in America — referenced at the opening. • Monticello, Charlottesville, Virginia — Thomas Jefferson's home; venue for the July 4 immigrant-welcoming event Wehner mentions. About Keen On America Nobody asks more awkward questions than the Anglo-American writer and filmmaker Andrew Keen. In Keen On America, Andrew brings his pointed Transatlantic wit to making sense of the United States — hosting daily interviews about the history and future of this now venerable Republic. With nearly 3,000 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the most prolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting. WebsiteSubstackYouTubeApple PodcastsSpotify Chapters: (00:31) - Introduction: Trump at 80 and the apotheosis (02:07) - Visible decomposition: more dangerous than Trump 1.0 (02:54) - Something to celebrate or be concerned about? (03:21) - The disinhibition intensifies; impulsivity more easily triggered (04:18) - Is there a Shakespearean arc? (04:54) - King Lear allusion: hesitation; Trump is a flatter figure (05:30) - Man of borderless corruption; his descent is our descent (06:40) - European mystification: just back from Poland (07:18) - Trump is sui generis (08:10) - When it happens twice, that breaks trust (10:22) - Not everyone elected Trump: the Republican question (11:16) - The crack-up of MAGA world (12:19) - Marjorie Taylor Gre...
Over the last decade, white evangelicals in the U.S. have lost their moral credibility. In response, Peter Wehner says the church should embrace a form of "Christian humanism." The Holy Post crew discusses his article, what he gets right, and why that label may be a barrier for some. Kaitlyn interviews biblical scholar Michael Rhodes about his book,"Reimagining Biblical Politics: What Scripture Says About Public Life and Why It Matters." Rather than looking to specific verses to define our political positions, Rhodes says we must allow all of Scripture to shape our imaginations and then use discernment as we engage our unique political context. Also this week—controversy over the design of the Obama Presidential Center in Chicago, how faith-based apps are gamifying Christianity, and the benefits of talking to dogs. Holy Post Plus: Ad-Free Version of this Episode: https://holypost.substack.com/p/726-reimagining-biblical-politics Bonus Interview: https://holypost.substack.com/p/how-christians-can-live-faithfully 0:00 - Show Starts 2:44 - Theme Song 3:08 - Sponsor - AG1 - Heavily researched, thoroughly purity-tested, and filled with stuff you need. Get the AG1 $76 Welcome Pack for free when you order from https://www.drinkag1.com/HOLYPOST 4:29 - Sponsor - Hiya Health - Go to https://www.hiyahealth.com/HOLYPOST to receive 50% off your first order 5:57 - Talking to Dogs Makes Ya Smart? 11:41 - Obama Presidential Center 23:56 - World Relief Update with Matthew Sorens 38:00 - Sponsor - Feeding America - Feeding America, led by neighbors! Give now to end hunger at https://www.feedingamerica.org 40:00 - Sponsor - World Challenge - Want to help people around the world? Get involved today at https://worldchallenge.org/HOLYPOST 57:22 - Interview 1:04:42 - What Do We Mean by "Politics?" 1:15:40 - The Ambiguity of Esther 1:23:30 - Scripture Transforms Politics 1:34:26 - End Credits Links Mentioned in News Segment: The Commodification of Christianity: https://www.freyaindia.co.uk/p/the-commodification-of-christianity American Christians Face a Choice: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/06/christian-humanism-trump-choice/687475/ Other Resources: crossRhodes: Reimagining Biblical Politics: https://pod.link/1888014284?view=apps&sort=popularity Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/ Holy Post Plus: www.holypost.com/plus Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost Holy Post Merch Store: https://www.holypost.com/shop The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.
Send us Fan MailNEW EPISODE - I'm so pleased to welcome back my friend Peter Wehner — political thinker, former White House speechwriter, regular contributor to The Atlantic and The New York Times, and one of the most thoughtful Christian voices speaking into America's moral and political turmoil.Peter joins me to discuss four remarkable recent *essays that confront some of the darkest and most urgent questions facing our nation right now. Together, we explore the rise of militant Christian nationalism, the theology and rhetoric surrounding Pete Hegseth, and the dangerous fusion of political grievance, religious certainty, and the language of holy war.Peter examines how biblical texts — especially the imprecatory Psalms — are being weaponized to justify aggression, vengeance, and even bloodlust in modern political life. We talk about the influence of figures like Douglas Wilson, the appeal to “King David” spirituality, and why many respected biblical scholars insist that the conquest ethic of the Old Testament cannot be used as a model for Christian political action today. As Peter argues, the Sermon on the Mount stands as a direct repudiation of that worldview.We also step back from the headlines to reflect on our deeply fractured culture — our polarization, loneliness, loss of community, and longing for what the Hebrew Scriptures call shalom. Along the way, we draw wisdom from voices like Desmond Tutu, Rowan Williams, and David Bentley Hart.This is an honest, sobering, and ultimately hopeful conversation about faith, power, truth, and the soul of America. I hope you'll join us.*See SHOW NOTES for Pete's four recent essays.Support the showBecome a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you!Ken's Substack PageThe Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com
Some people have the most amazing resumes. Check out Peter's bio in The Atlantic: "Peter Wehner is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. His books include The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, City of Man: Religion and Politics in a New Era, which he co-wrote with Michael J. Gerson, and Wealth and Justice: The Morality of Democratic Capitalism. He was formerly a speechwriter for George W. Bush and a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. Wehner is a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times, and his work also appears in publications including The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and National Affairs."Wow. But here's the thing: what this doesn't tell you is that Peter also happens to be one of the kindest and wisest men on the planet. It's my honour to get to call him friend and to share this interview with you.
For a President who CLAIMS he's religious, there's a whooooole lot of blasphemy going on under Trump's second term. Not only has he compared himself to Jesus, but he's also been picking fights with the Pope. Is that losing him support, or are his supporters still following him blindly? Chris and Jarv speak with returning guest Peter Wehner, a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum, writer for The Atlantic, and former Republican speechwriter. Back us on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/AmericanFriction Follow us on social media: Bluesky Instagram TikTok Written and presented by Jacob Jarvis and Chris Jones. Audio/ video editor: Chris Jones. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. Executive producer: Martin Bojtos. Artwork by James Parrett. Music: Orange Factory Music. AMERICAN FRICTION is a Podmasters Production. www.podmasters.co.uk Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth believes America's wars around the world are part of a holy Christian mission. Peter Wehner, contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum, joins host Krys Boyd to discuss the Psalms he quotes about smiting enemies, how he is taking inspiration from the Bible for military conquests and why he wants his entire chaplain corps to think this way. His article is “Hegseth's Unholy War Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices
“All these groups from 1945 on said: we can resist any hate group in America, even the Ku Klux Klan, as long as we take them on one at a time. But our great fear is if these right-wing groups figure out a way to communicate with one another in a more instantaneous way — we are in big trouble.” — Steven J. Ross It's not just springtime for Hitler in America. It's winter, summer and fall too. There is what the historian of American neo-Nazism, Steven J. Ross, defines as the “too many Führers Problem.” This, he says, is the central weakness of American neo-Nazism over eight decades. Every far-right leader from the 1940s onward demanded a united fascist movement — and every one of them insisted on being the Führer in charge of it. The result was the permanent fracture of the American far right. That is, until the latest wannabe Führer, Donald Trump, came along. Last week, the Justice Department sided with the Ku Klux Klan. The Southern Poverty Law Center — the country's main watchdog against antisemitism, racism, and far-right violence — was accused of running agents within radical right-wing organisations and using charitable funds for improper purposes. In his new book, The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance to Antisemitism and White Supremacy, Ross says that this has all happened before. The Secret War Against Hate tells the story of three undercover spy operations — run by the American Jewish Committee, the Anti-Defamation League, and the Non-Sectarian Anti-Nazi League — that infiltrated every fascist, Nazi, and racist group in America from the 1940s through the 1970s. When government fails to protect its citizens, Ross suggests, it falls to citizens to protect themselves. J. Edgar Hoover's FBI was obsessed with communists and mostly indifferent to antisemitism and racism. Rather than the solution, the G-Men were one more problem. In May 1945, a few days before VE Day, the three spy chiefs — working in offices a few blocks apart in Midtown Manhattan — wrote the identical memo on the same day. If right-wing groups, fractured by the “too many Führers problem,” ever found a way to communicate instantaneously with one another, and if one of them ever peeled off into a mainstream political party, they warned, American democracy would be in big trouble. That was their “Too Many Führers Problem.” Springtime for an American Hitler. Today this problem is no longer a joke.Five Takeaways • The Justice Department Sides with the KKK: The opening frame of the interview: last week, the Justice Department accused the Southern Poverty Law Center of running agents within radical right-wing groups and using charitable funds improperly. Ross's argument: the same accusations were levelled at the undercover spy operations run by the ADL, the American Jewish Committee, and the Non-Sectarian Anti-Nazi League from the 1940s onward. Those operations, which operated because government had abrogated its responsibility to protect minorities, foiled plot after plot. The FBI informants doing the same thing were never prosecuted. The pattern — government targeting the anti-hate watchdogs while ignoring actual hate — is not new. • J. Edgar Hoover: The Enemy Within: Hoover ran the FBI from the early 1920s until his death in 1972, and throughout that period he cared almost exclusively about communists. Correspondence with his Atlanta special agent-in-charge referred to the Anti-Defamation League as the “Anti-Deformation League.” Ross stops short of calling him an antisemite and racist — no burning gun — but says the correspondence smells like both. In 1940, the German-American Bund was operating freely in Los Angeles: the LA ports were open to Nazi spies, propaganda, and payoffs in ways that New York's — under the watchful eye of Mayor La Guardia — were not. Because of Leon Lewis's undercover spy network, every Nazi plot in Southern California was foiled. • Three Memos, One Day, Three Authors Who Didn't Know Each Other: In May 1945, a few days before VE Day, the leaders of the three undercover operations — working in offices a few blocks apart in Midtown Manhattan, unknown to each other — each independently wrote the same memo. Their two shared fears: first, that if fractured right-wing groups ever found a way to communicate instantaneously with one another, the resistance would be overwhelmed. Second, that if any of them ever peeled off into a mainstream political party, bringing their antisemitic and racist views into the mainstream, the republic would be in real danger. Both predictions, Ross observes, have now come true. • The Too Many Führers Problem: Every right-wing leader from the 1940s onward called for a united fascist front — and every one of them wanted to be the Führer in charge of it. The result was permanent fracture: each group too small and too self-important to unify with the others. What changed with Trump, Ross argues, is that the far right said: here is our Führer. He is articulating what we say. After Charlottesville — “there are good people on both sides” — the deal was sealed. The internet gave them the ability to communicate instantaneously. Trump gave them the figurehead. The two conditions the 1945 memos feared most had arrived simultaneously. • Jefferson's Long-Term Solution: Educate Everyone: Ross ends his book with Thomas Jefferson — the right wing's own favourite founding father. In his Notes on the State of Virginia, Jefferson warned that every so often a political huckster would come along and convince Americans that what was good for him was good for the country. Americans would believe it for a while. But a collectively educated citizenry, really studying the issues, would always come out on the side of democracy. Jefferson called for a constitutional amendment mandating universal education in perpetuity. Ross's verdict: look at the voting patterns. Look at what is happening to the Department of Education. The attack on higher education is not incidental. An uneducated public is the most vulnerable public. About the Guest Steven J. Ross is a Distinguished Professor of History at the University of Southern California and the author of The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance to Antisemitism and White Supremacy (Simon & Schuster, April 2026) and Hitler in Los Angeles: How Jews Foiled Nazi Plots Against Hollywood and America (Pulitzer Prize finalist). He lives in Los Angeles. References: • The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance to Antisemitism and White Supremacy by Steven J. Ross (Simon & Schuster, April 2026). • Hitler in Los Angeles: How Jews Foiled Nazi Plots Against Hollywood and America by Steven J. Ross — Pulitzer Prize finalist; the companion volume. • Episode 2882: Peter Wehner on Trump's Unholy War — the companion episode on the moral coll...
“They weren't interested in being on the side of God so much as they are insistent that God is on their side.” — Peter Wehner on Hegseth and Trump According to Peter Wehner, something has gone terribly wrong in America. And that something, Wehner has been warning us now for more than ten years, is Donald Trump. In his latest Atlantic piece, “Hegseth's Unholy War,” Wehner aims his moral rifle at Trump's latest outrage, the Iranian conflict. Citing Hegseth's prayer at the Pentagon for “overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy,” Wehner argues that the Bible, in his Crusader-like hands, has been weaponized into a theological cover for bloodlust. Something has gone terribly wrong with the intersection of faith and American politics, Wehner believes. The evangelical church, which once commanded real moral authority, has largely become what he calls a defamation of Jesus. Thus the significance of Pope Leo XIV's public opposition to Trump. Rather than a social media spat, Wehner sees this Papal indictment of Trump as a kind of moral war which has been brewing for some time. In a recent New York Times op-ed co-authored with Jonathan Rauch, Wehner argued that the Trump administration has reached its psychotic stage. Having filled key institutions with Hegseth-style lackeys and hoodlums, this psychosis is now infecting not just the federal government but the whole world. Thus Iran. It's the kind of fiasco you wouldn't expect from middle schoolers planning a field trip, Wehner says. His fear is that as Trump is humiliated by both the Papacy and Tehran, the President of the United States will have what psychologists call an extinction burst — a five-year-old's out-of-control tantrum. Yes, something has indeed gone terribly wrong in America. Five Takeaways • Hegseth's Unholy War: At a Pentagon worship service, Hegseth prayed for “overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy,” invoking imprecatory psalms — emotional laments written from the perspective of the powerless — as theological cover for the most powerful military force in history. Wehner's sharpest line: Hegseth and his allies are not interested in being on the side of God; they are insistent that God is on their side. The Bible becomes not a text for self-examination but a weapon aimed outward. Wehner's diagnosis: Hegseth has a bloodlust, unresolved resentments, and a conversion that is at least in part real — but real in the sense that he has locked onto a particular brand of faith to validate things he already believes. • Something Has Gone Terribly Wrong: The evangelical church, which once commanded moral authority, has become — by and large, in Wehner's view — an awful depiction of the Christian faith and a net negative contribution to American civic life. Figures like Franklin Graham, Tony Perkins, Robert Jeffress, and Al Mohler have become vocal Trump supporters, using the name of Jesus to validate cruelty and crudity. Wehner's explanation: too many people who know better are afraid to speak out — afraid their congregations will split, afraid of the institutional costs. But the silence is not neutral. A watching world has seen these evangelicals and concluded: you are a bunch of hypocrites who act worse than the people you criticize. • Pope Leo XIV vs. Trump: Wehner thinks this is not a tiff. It is an intellectual war, and it has been carefully planned. Pope Leo — an American pope, significantly — represents a set of contrasts almost too clean to be coincidental: a moral man against an amoral one, a person of faith against a person of no faith, someone who uses language with care against someone who cannot help but dehumanize his critics. And an institution-builder against an institution-destroyer. Wehner credits Leo with performing a necessary function that almost no one else in American public life is capable of performing — confronting Trump on explicitly moral terms with unblemished authority. • Vance: The Mask He Wears: Wehner distinguishes Hegseth from Vance: Hegseth is, in some sense, a true believer; Vance's conversion to MAGA was transparently cynical, driven by enormous ambition. That makes him more morally culpable, not less. But Wehner also notes a psychological dynamic: when you live a life at odds with what you truly believe, cognitive dissonance is painful, and the mind mitigates that pain by rationalizing, by beginning to believe what you say. You become the mask you wear. Vance, Rubio, Graham, Johnson — these are people who knew better, decided to make a figurative deal with the devil, and convinced themselves they could do more good than harm. • The Republican Party Has Become a Dark Force: Without the Republican Party, none of this could have happened. The party is hugely accountable. Trump is sociopathic — colorblind when it comes to morality, probably unable to help himself. But the Republicans in the party did know better and went along anyway. Mike Johnson, very big on proclaiming his evangelical faith, is a pathetic and disreputable figure. His reputation has been stained beyond belief. Wehner's verdict on the party's future: if it has any association with the current iteration, it deserves condemnation. The roots of MAGA go too deep for a snapback. This may get more chaotic after Trump leaves than less. History will get it right, Wehner believes. These people were on the wrong side of their faith, their morality, their politics, and their justice. And it will be known. About the Guest Peter Wehner is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. He served in the Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and George W. Bush administrations. He is the author of The Death of Politics and several other books. He lives in McLean, Virginia. References: • Hegseth's Unholy War by Peter Wehner, The Atlantic, April 2026. • “Pete Hegseth's Moral Unseriousness,” by Peter Wehner, The Atlantic, April 2026. • “The Trump Administration Is in a Psychotic State,” by Peter Wehner and Jonathan Rauch, The New York Times, April 10, 2026. • The Barmen Declaration (1934) — Bonhoeffer's theological break with the German Protestant church under Nazism, discussed as a historical precedent. About Keen On America Nobody asks more awkward questions than the Anglo-American writer and filmmaker Andrew Keen. In Keen On America, Andrew brings his pointed Transatlantic wit to making sense of the United States — hosting daily interviews about the history and future of this now venerable Republic. With nearly 2,900 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Ke...
We have a roundup of extravagant Easter celebrations, including helicopter egg drops, holy week drone shows, and skydiving bunnies. But what do these spectacles really achieve, and what do they communicate about the way of Jesus? Bible sales are breaking records. Is Donald Trump the reason? Conservative writer Peter Wehner, who worked for three Republican administrations, is back to explain how MAGA has rewired evangelical morality and what pastors should do about it. Also this week, the contrasting Easter messages of the Pope and the President. Holy Post Plus: Ad-Free Version of this Episode: https://www.patreon.com/posts/155037389/ 0:00 - Show Starts 3:43 - Theme Song 4:05 - Sponsor - Brooklyn Bedding - Use code HOLYPOST for 30% off sitewide for a great night's sleep! Go to https://www.brooklynbedding.com/HOLYPOST 5:12 - Sponsor - Feeding America - Feeding America, led by neighbors! Give now to end hunger at https://www.feedingamerica.org 5:48 - Candy Day 8:37 - Pope and President Easter Messages 21:35 - Sponsor - AG1 - Heavily researched, thoroughly purity-tested, and filled with stuff you need. Get the AG1 $76 Welcome Pack for free when you order from https://www.drinkag1.com/HOLYPOST 23:05 - Sponsor - Sundays Dog Food - Get 40% off your first order of Sundays. Go to https://www.SundaysForDogs.com/HOLYPOST or use code HOLYPOST at checkout. 24:08 - Sponsor - BetterHelp - This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://www.betterhelp.com/HOLYPOST and get 10% off your first month! 25:12 - Easter Spectacles 32:11- Was the Resurrection "Spectacle?" 40:32 - Bible Sales Double 50:48 - Interview 54:35 - Where MAGA Came From 1:05:18 - Will MAGA Burn Out? 1:16:36 - Pastors in Political Controversy 1:24:42 - End Credits Links Mentioned in News Segment: Easter Drones: https://www.christianitytoday.com/2026/04/churches-try-drones-and-skydiving-bunnies-for-easter-outreach/ Luxury Bibles: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/05/us/luxury-bibles.html Other Resources: How Trump Killed Conservatism by Peter Wehner: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/03/trump-maga-conservatism/686501/ Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/ Holy Post Plus: www.holypost.com/plus Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost Holy Post Merch Store: https://www.holypost.com/shop The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.
Peter Wehner's new Atlantic article hits hard—and his appearance on Morning Joe might shock you. Why? Because a group of secular news hosts just articulated the Gospel more clearly than many white evangelical pastors. In this episode, I share key clips from that conversation, unpack what it means for the future of American Christianity, and explain why I'm encouraged, not discouraged, by this cultural shift.
Mona is joined by the Atlantic's Peter Wehner to discuss the psychology of MAGA and why defeating them must be the precursor to depolarization.Wildgrain is offering $30 off your first box - PLUS free Croissantsfor life - when you go to https://Wildgrain.com/MONA to start your subscription today.
This special episode is taken from the launch of the inaugural Michael J. Gerson Prize for Excellence in Writing on Faith and Public Life. Through this conversation, held at Washington National Cathedral in November 2025, you'll learn a lot about Michael, and what his legacy means for us now. What you'll hear in this episode is a conversation moderated by Trinity Forum President Cherie Harder on “Conscience, Courage and Craft: The Duty of the Writer in an Age of Confusion.” The all-star panelists are Peter Wehner, David Brooks, Christine Emba, Russell Moore, and Karen Swallow Prior. You'll also hear videos provided in Michael's memory by two of his friends – President Bush, and Bono.“Our responsibility [as writers] is to … remind our readers and our audiences of the good, the true, the beautiful, the virtuous … to show that those things can be lovely, actually, to redefine those words in ways that don't make them smell of just old books and past lectures that we've moved past, but something that can be alive in this moment.” —Christine EmbaLater that evening, Matthew Loftus was named as the inaugural winner of the award. You can find writings by Matthew, and by Michael Gerson, at TTF.org. You can also find the full YouTube video of the evening there. While you're there, why not consider becoming a member of the Trinity Forum? Join us in exploring timeless Christian wisdom together, so you gain clarity and courage for your own life, and help cultivate a renewed culture of hope - including through next year's Michael Gerson Prize.
For Peter Wehner, American politics is a tale of two Kellys. On the one hand, there's the moral resistance of Arizona Senator Mark Kelly to what appears to be the gratuitous violence of American forces overseas. On the other hand, there's the conservative podcaster Megyn Kelly who has openly fantasized about this bloodthirsty behavior. For Wehner, Megyn Kelly's immorality is an excellent example of both the moral and intellectual decline of the right. Once a serious journalist who challenged (and upset) Trump in the 2015 debates, Kelly has devolved into what Wehner calls “darkly deranged” territory - a trajectory that mirrors the broader conservative movement's abandonment of Burkean and Madisonian principles for Kelly-style shock jocks and neo-Nazi clowns like Nick Fuentes. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit keenon.substack.com/subscribe
Jonathan Capehart of MS NOW and Peter Wehner, a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum, join John Yang to discuss the week in politics, including President Trump's push for an even tougher crackdown on immigration in the days following the shooting of two National Guard members by an Afghan national on the streets of Washington. PBS News is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy
Jonathan Capehart of MS NOW and Peter Wehner, a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum, join John Yang to discuss the week in politics, including President Trump's push for an even tougher crackdown on immigration in the days following the shooting of two National Guard members by an Afghan national on the streets of Washington. PBS News is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy
Jonathan Capehart of MS NOW and Peter Wehner, a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum, join John Yang to discuss the week in politics, including President Trump's push for an even tougher crackdown on immigration in the days following the shooting of two National Guard members by an Afghan national on the streets of Washington. PBS News is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy
Trump urges Congress to release the Epstein files in a sudden reversal. This comes ahead of Congress' big vote regarding the case tomorrow. Then, the Trump organization is in reported talks on a Saudi real estate deal, as the Saudi Crown Prince arrives in Washington. Plus, new reporting on a firm tied to Kristi Noem receiving major funding from the DHS. Luke Broadwater, Susan Glasser, David Weigel, Ron Insana, Catherine Rampell, Justin Elliot, and Peter Wehner join The 11th Hour this Monday night. To listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads, sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
Send us a textKen welcomes Washington political commentator, speechwriter, and author Peter Wehner. Pete is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He is well known for his prolific contribution to the intersection of politics, public policy, and faith. Early on, he identified as a conservative, a Republican, and an Evangelical. From 2011, when Donald Trump campaigned to challenge the legitimacy of the Obama Presidency, suggesting that he was born in Kenya and not the U.S.A., Wehner has called out the danger of a Trump presidency. Pete has been a stalwart in opposing Donald Trump and in the process, he no longer identifies as a Republican or an Evangelical. He remains a traditional conservative. However, he has offered a powerful and sustained critique of evangelical support for Donald Trump and a Republican Party that has become subservient to the newly elected President. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson played a key role in that transition. Ken and Pete have a lively discussion over his early years as a new Christian, his college career, the influence of his scientist father, his move to Washington, Reagan's speech after the Challenger disaster, George Bush's 9/11 speech (Pete was in the White House that fateful day), and finally Donald Trump's complete take-over of the Republican Party and his return to the White House for a second term. SHOW NOTESSupport the showBecome a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken's Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com
Can Democrats pull a Ronald Reagan? That's the provocative question at the heart of Peter Wehner and Jonathan Rauch's New York Times intriguing piece about how the Democrats can win back the presidency in 2028. Just as the neo-liberal Reagan crushed the cardigan-wearing Carter by promising economic vitality over malaise, Democrats now have a chance to flip the script—if only they can drop their annoying cultural politics and reclaim the mantle of middle-class prosperity. By owning the American Dream, Rauch and Wehner suggest, you also own American politics. Given the Republican abandonment of growth politics, they argue, the seeds of a Democratic revival have already been sown. Now all the party needs is somebody with Reagan's messaging genius. Mark Cuban, perhaps?1. Democrats Are Abandoning Anti-Trump Strategy for Positive MessagingThe 19 Democrats interviewed for the article were explicitly asked not to mention Trump—a "disciplining exercise" that revealed the party's recognition that pure opposition isn't enough. They need an affirmative agenda focused on prosperity and the American dream rather than just being the anti-Trump party.2. Republicans Have Abandoned Growth Politics, Creating an OpeningTrump's GOP now runs on "scarcity" and "beggar-thy-neighbor" policies—tariffs that raise prices, fewer immigrants despite labor shortages, telling Americans to "make do with less." This abandons Reagan's successful abundance message and gives Democrats a chance to become the "party of prosperity."3. Cultural Issues Are Democrats' Biggest Barrier to Economic CredibilityEvery Democrat interviewed acknowledged they must move to the center on cultural issues before voters will listen to their economic message. As Rahm Emanuel put it: "If you don't get through that cultural barrier, people aren't going to listen to you on kitchen table issues." Early signs include Gavin Newsom's shifts on transgender policies and Wes Moore rejecting reparations.4. The "Abundance Agenda" Could Unite Progressive and Centrist WingsDemocrats see potential common ground: progressives can focus on breaking up monopolies and corporate price manipulation, while centrists tackle zoning reform and regulatory barriers. Both approaches aim to reduce artificial scarcity and boost middle-class prosperity.5. 2028 May Require an Outsider, Not a Traditional PoliticianWith Trump at 37% approval and voters seeking authenticity, energy, and change, Democrats may need someone like Mark Cuban rather than a typical governor or senator. The party is looking for someone who can challenge the status quo without sounding like a conventional politician—much like Reagan did in 1980.Keen On America is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit keenon.substack.com/subscribe
***Please subscribe to Matt's Substack at https://worthknowing.substack.com/***This episode of the 'Worth Knowing' live stream delves into the question of whether the Democratic Party is on the verge of a major comeback, even in the face of the onslaught of the Trump administration. Matt is joined by esteemed political analysts Peter Wehner and Jonathan Rauch, who discuss analyses from top political thinkers suggesting a potential Democratic resurgence. They explore the importance of cultural and economic strategies, including reclaiming the party's image on prosperity and cultural issues, and suggest embracing religious values to connect with a broader electorate. The conversation touches on practical policy ideas, the complexities of internal party divisions, and the need for a compelling narrative to galvanize support and offer a viable alternative to the current administration.00:00 Introduction and Technical Issues00:46 The Democratic Party's Comeback?02:58 Political Analysts Weigh In03:32 Challenges Facing the Democratic Party06:51 Economic and Cultural Strategies13:44 Historical Comparisons and Lessons26:34 The Importance of Storytelling in Politics27:17 Government Competence and Public Expectations28:17 Challenges in Blue State Cities29:37 Democratic Policy Perception Issues31:28 Survey Insights and Policy Suggestions38:28 Cultural Disconnect and Woke Perception47:22 Faith and Politics: A Missed Opportunity for Democrats54:48 Closing Thoughts and Reflections
Send us a textIn this important and timely episode, I welcome back journalist, author, and friend of the podcast, Peter Wehner. We dig into his provocative and widely discussed article in The Atlantic: “Why Evangelicals Turned Their Back on PEPFAR.”PEPFAR—President George W. Bush's historic global AIDS relief program—has saved over 26 million lives and prevented millions of HIV infections. Once championed by American evangelicals, the program is now in crisis. Under Donald Trump's second term, PEPFAR was effectively shut down. Clinics have closed, aid has stalled, and more than 75,000 lives have already been lost—with millions more at risk.So why the silence from the evangelical community?Peter and I explore the cultural, political, and theological reasons behind this shift—from compassion to indifference—and why this issue, which should unite pro-life Christians, has instead fallen off the radar. We also reflect on how partisan loyalty, fear of division, and moral inconsistency have muted the response to one of the most effective humanitarian programs in U.S. history.This conversation is urgent, eye-opening, and deeply relevant to anyone who cares about faith, politics, and the real-world impact of silence. I hope you'll join us. This is one you don't want to miss. SHOW NOTESMSNBC Morning JoeRNS on PEPFARRNS - Nashville's Christian music stars join activists in push to save PEPFARHoly Post talks about PEPFARSupport the showBecome a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken's Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com
This week, Mike, Russell, and Clarissa discuss evangelicals abandoning support for PEPFAR with Peter Wehner. Then, the IRS says churches can endorse political candidates. Is that okay? Finally, the ‘One Big Beautiful Bill Act' has officially passed. Ingrid Delgado of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul stops by to help us understand the implications for the vulnerable. REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE: “Why Evangelicals Turned Their Back on PEPFAR”—The Atlantic This month's episode of Tuesday Night Live with Mike & Clarissa. GO DEEPER WITH THE BULLETIN: Take our survey for a chance to win a free sweatshirt. Join the conversation at our Substack. Find us on YouTube. Rate and review the show in your podcast app of choice. ABOUT THE GUESTS: Peter Wehner is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He was formerly a speechwriter for George W. Bush and a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. Wehner is a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times, and his work also appears in publications including The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and National Affairs. Ingrid Delgado is the national director of public policy and advocacy at the Society of St. Vincent de Paul USA, an organization that seeks to raise the profile of issues such as homelessness and protection for the most vulnerable. She previously worked for the US. Conference of Catholic Bishops as associate director of government relations and, before then, as a domestic policy advisor. ABOUT THE BULLETIN: The Bulletin is a twice-weekly politics and current events show from Christianity Today moderated by Clarissa Moll, with senior commentary from Russell Moore (Christianity Today's editor in chief) and Mike Cosper (director, CT Media). Each week, the show explores current events and breaking news and shares a Christian perspective on issues that are shaping our world. We also offer special one-on-one conversations with writers, artists, and thought leaders whose impact on the world brings important significance to a Christian worldview, like Bono, Sharon McMahon, Harrison Scott Key, Frank Bruni, and more. The Bulletin listeners get 25% off CT. Go to https://orderct.com/THEBULLETIN to learn more. “The Bulletin” is a production of Christianity Today Producer: Clarissa Moll Associate Producer: Alexa Burke Editing and Mix: TJ Hester Music: Dan Phelps Executive Producers: Erik Petrik and Mike Cosper Senior Producer: Matt Stevens Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
The last time Peter Wehner, who I've always imagined as America's conscience, appeared on the show to talk about the “ethical darkness” that has fallen upon America, I suggested that this was an “important” interview. Today's conversation is much more important than being simply important. Based on Wehner's recent Atlantic piece about why MAGA evangelicals have turned their back on PEPFAR, the American relief agency saving the lives of millions of Africa's AIDS victims, this is a conversation about America's heart of moral darkness. It's not just Trump who has African blood on his hands, Wehner argues, but most of his evangelical supporters who are unmoved by the destruction of PEPFAR. For the first time in my many conversations with Wehner, he was visibly moved by both the cruelty of Trump and the indifference of his supposedly Christian supporters. 1. Trump's Destruction of PEPFAR is "Wanton Cruelty" "This to me was an act of wanton cruelty. You really had to go out of your way to think how can I kill millions of people quickly inefficient. And they found one way to do it, which is to shatter USAID, which is the main implementing agency for PEPFAR."2. The Scale of Death is Staggering and Real-Time "There is an adult being lost every three minutes, a child every 31 minutes. And ending PEPFAR could result in as many as 11 million additional new HIV infections and nearly 3 million additional AIDS-related deaths by the end of the decade."3. Trump's Hold on Evangelicals is Unlike Anything in American Politics "I think it is closer to a cult of personality than it is to a normal political party... I think in some senses, the truest thing Donald Trump said in the 2016 campaign was when he said that he could go on Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and he wouldn't lose support. And I think that turned out to be not hyperbole but prophetic."4. Evangelical Silence Reveals Their True Moral Priorities "In 2014, World Vision announced that they would hire at some levels of the organization, people who were in same sex marriages. And it was like a bomb going off in the evangelical world... Between 3,000 and 3,500 sponsors of kids primarily in Africa... Were ended... And now you have a situation... about what destruction of PEPFAR has done and will do and you can get barely get a peep out of them."5. This is About Mass Death, Not Policy Disagreement "Yeah, no, that is what I'm saying. I'm saying there will be a lot, lot more before this is done. There will be millions... We're talking really, really significant numbers. And that's an enormous amount of death, an enormous of suffering, and it's completely unnecessary."I hate the term “moral urgency”. But this is a morally urgent conversation about America's descent into a heart of darkness. Wehner exposes the cruelty and stupidity of destruction of the PEPFAR program. Even in the time you've spent reading this, a couple of African children will have died because of the callousness of MAGA disregard for human life. Keen On America is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit keenon.substack.com/subscribe
Have a comment? Send us a text! (We read all of them but can't reply). Email us: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.comLaunched in 2003, PEPFAR has saved over 25 million lives and stood as one of America's most celebrated bipartisan achievements. But under the Trump administration's second term, this global health initiative faces near-total collapse. In this urgent conversation, Peter Wehner—a veteran of three Republican administrations and a key PEPFAR advocate—explains how executive orders, the gutting of USAID, and MAGA-driven misinformation have jeopardized millions. Wehner, a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center and contributor to The Atlantic and The New York Times, also reflects on the unraveling of U.S. soft power, the erosion of moral clarity in the evangelical world, and how Christians should respond to mass suffering abroad.From the devastation of Africa's healthcare infrastructure to the ideological reshaping of the GOP, this episode is a powerful wake-up call for anyone concerned with human dignity, public health, or the soul of American politics.
Send us a textKen welcomes Washington political commentator, speechwriter, and author Peter Wehner. Pete is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He is well known for his prolific contribution to the intersection of politics, public policy, and faith. Early on, he identified as a conservative, a Republican, and an Evangelical. From 2011, when Donald Trump campaigned to challenge the legitimacy of the Obama Presidency, suggesting that he was born in Kenya and not the U.S.A., Wehner has called out the danger of a Trump presidency. Pete has been a stalwart in opposing Donald Trump and in the process, he no longer identifies as a Republican or an Evangelical. He remains a traditional conservative. However, he has offered a powerful and sustained critique of evangelical support for Donald Trump and a Republican Party that has become subservient to the newly elected President. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson played a key role in that transition. Ken and Pete have a lively discussion over his early years as a new Christian, his college career, the influence of his scientist father, his move to Washington, Reagan's speech after the Challenger disaster, George Bush's 9/11 speech (Pete was in the White House that fateful day), and finally Donald Trump's complete take-over of the Republican Party and his return to the White House for a second term. SHOW NOTESBecome a Patron | Ken's Substack PageSupport the showBecome a Patron - Click on the link to learn how you can become a Patron of the show. Thank you! Ken's Substack Page The Podcast Official Site: TheBeachedWhiteMale.com
In contrast with yesterday's guest, the Paris based Financial Times writer Simon Kuper, the newspaper's London based columnist Jemima Kelly hasn't quite given up on the United States of America. Trump, she suggests, might be the end of the line for the MAGA movement. Indeed, like another recent guest on the show, former Wired editor Peter Leyden, Kelly suggests that the Republicans might be flirting with the destruction of their brand for the next political generation. Unlike Leyden, however, Kelly isn't particularly bullish on the future of the Democratic Party, arguing that there is a desperate need for a formal national opposition to Trump's MAGA Republicanism. And in contrast with Leyden, Kelly doesn't see much of an opposition - moral or otherwise - from seemingly spineless tech billionaires like Mark Zuckerberg or Marc Andreessen. 5 Key Takeaways* Kelly is most concerned about Trump's "utter disregard for the legal system and the kind of lawlessness" that characterizes his second administration.* She believes Democrats lack cohesive opposition structure, noting America could benefit from a shadow cabinet system like the UK's to provide clear alternative voices.* Kelly predicts "MAGA is going to finish with Trump" as there's no viable successor who can match his charisma and stage presence.* She criticizes tech leaders like Mark Zuckerberg for capitulating to Trump, questioning how they justify abandoning values for business interests.* Kelly argues that maintaining moral principles is crucial for Democrats, as sinking to Trump's level only erodes institutional trust, which has already been significantly damaged. Full Transcript Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. It is Wednesday, April the 23rd, 2025. Headlines today remain dominated by Donald Trump. Every story above the fold, at least above the digital fold in the Financial Times, seems to be about him. Yesterday, we talked to FT columnist Simon Cooper, a Dutchman living in Paris, who had an interesting piece earlier this week suggesting Americans should move to Europe, indicating the American dream was over. Cooper seemed to relish this news. Today, we're talking to another FT columnist, Jemima Kelly. She's based in northeast London, in Hackney, and she's talking to us today from the FT offices in the heart of London City. Jemima, what's your take on Simon's column this week? Is it indeed time for most Americans to move to Europe?Jemima Kelly: I thought it was a very interesting column. I'm particularly interested in this idea that you discussed on your show about the brain drain that has been going in the direction of America and that might start to come back in the other direction, which I hadn't really properly considered before in those terms. But I must say that I'm not really a fan of encouraging people to all be digital nomads. He's actually followed it up with a piece today about how to be a digital nomad in Paris. I'm not really a fan of that kind of lifestyle because I think that it means people aren't particularly invested in their local communities, and I think it makes a bit of a crappy neighborhood if everyone is just working their own jobs. The dream of earning a US salary while working remotely living in Europe—I'm just like, please don't do that because then we're just importing inequality.Andrew Keen: Although to be fair, was Simon actually saying that?Jemima Kelly: I think he did say that the ultimate life, the ultimate arbitrage was doing that. And it's true, it is the ultimate arbitrage. It's just not one that I would particularly want people to pursue. It's like the Airbnb culture—it's destroyed a lot of cities and priced out local people, meaning certain cities you visit have no locals, just tourists, which is quite crap as a tourist.Andrew Keen: I guess the other critique of Simon's piece, which is an extension of yours, is for Americans who don't like Trump—and there are many, including myself—it's not time to move to Europe. It's not time to retreat. It is time to stay and fight and try to change America. So there's no reason why you have to shift. Jemima, you're a columnist at what you call on your X account "Friends of the Deep State" (FT). I'm using you as the voice of the European deep state. What's the take from London on Trump on April 23, 2025? It's so hard to make any sense of it. In a meta sense, in a structural sense, what's your take on what's happening?Jemima Kelly: I'm going to answer that in three parts. First, the "Friends of the Deep State" is obviously a reference to Liz Truss, who referred to the FT as the deep state.Andrew Keen: I want to come on to Truss later, another rather clownish character, your version of Donald Trump.Jemima Kelly: Yes, Britain's proudest export. Second, I would probably not want to speak for Europe or Britain. Maybe I can start by saying what I think the mood is.Andrew Keen: You live in Hackney in northeast London, so maybe you can speak on behalf of Hackney. What's the take on Trump from Hackney?Jemima Kelly: Just utter dismay. And I mean, I would say that's probably the mood I'm getting, even from people who thought there was too much hyperbole used about Trump in the run-up to his election. I didn't think comparisons to Hitler were particularly helpful.Andrew Keen: You're not alone. We've had that conversation many times on the show. I strongly agree with you.Jemima Kelly: So while there were people who were very hysterical about the idea of a Trump 2.0 being worse than the first time, I think so far, it does seem kind of worse, doesn't it?Andrew Keen: I'm asking you.Jemima Kelly: I would say there is a sense that things are quite scary at the moment. I think what I personally find most worrying, and that many balanced people are talking about, is the utter disregard for the courts and the rule of law. I was amazed looking at Truth Social earlier. I saw a post from Trump about an alleged MS-13 gang member.Andrew Keen: The Venezuelan who was illegally extradited or seized and taken to El Salvador.Jemima Kelly: I think this guy is actually Salvadoran. Trump has posted a picture of an alleged knuckle tattoo with four symbols which some people have extrapolated to mean MS-13. It's very obviously just computer-generated text superimposed on the image. Trump has posted it and appears to believe this is actually tattooed onto the man's knuckles, using that as justification. I think the utter disregard for the legal system and the lawlessness of Trump 2.0 is for me the most disturbing aspect because where does that end? It's just utter chaos.I might write this week about how Trump sees the world as just deal-making and transactions. The ends will always justify the means. He's openly saying he's going to keep pushing as hard as he can to get what he wants. But his followers, who are constantly rushing to justify everything he does, including his vice president, are glorifying the means themselves, which Trump himself doesn't even really believe in. People are willing to take what he says at face value and make it happen, like Vance going to Greenland on this supposed visit.Andrew Keen: You said in an excellent column earlier this month that Vance has "the zeal of the convert" and that's the problem.Jemima Kelly: Yes, because he once called Trump "America's Hitler."Andrew Keen: And he didn't mean it in a complimentary way.Jemima Kelly: I don't think he did.Andrew Keen: So, Jemima, stand back a little. Simon noted that he'd always believed in America growing up. A lot of his friends went to America. You're a slightly younger generation from Simon. When you graduated from university, did a lot of your friends go to America? Did you ever think maybe you should go to America as a singer or a journalist?Jemima Kelly: Did any of my friends? It's quite difficult as a British person going to America. Quite a few of my friends have ended up there, particularly in LA for some reason. I almost moved to New York with my previous employer, Reuters, and have considered it, but wanted to stay in London. I love America; it's a completely amazing and fascinating place. But it does feel like people I speak to at the moment are feeling concerned. Someone in New Orleans told me that when conservative columnists in the New York Times are writing that it's time for some kind of uprising...Andrew Keen: That was David Brooks. And Simon wrote about a friend of his in Georgia who said he couldn't even go out because he was scared to bump into Trump people.Jemima Kelly: I saw that. That's not how I personally believe that divisions should be handled. The idea that you shouldn't go out because you might bump into some Trump fans—I don't know about that.Andrew Keen: I couldn't agree more. Your last column, in the spirit of Easter, was titled "It's the hope that saves you." It was a broader column, not just about America. But do you still have a vestige, a glimmer of hope in America? Have you given up?Jemima Kelly: Oh, God, yes, I still have hope. I am an optimist. But I also believe that being optimistic and hopeful, which as I explain in the column are slightly different things, gives you a higher chance of things going well. If you don't resort to cynicism and nihilism, which I don't think is particularly helpful.Another column I would like to write in the coming weeks is that I am becoming convinced that MAGA is going to finish with Trump. There is no MAGA after Trump. One thing that convinced me of this was listening to the "Triggered" podcast with Donald Trump Jr. I tried to listen to a range of podcasts, some more painful than others, and I listened to a full episode the other day and couldn't believe the level of imbecility.Andrew Keen: Well, we know what you mean anyway, even if that isn't the word.Jemima Kelly: And he's the best friend of the vice president, who's supposedly this genius.Andrew Keen: I'm sure in a year or two JD will have moved on to other "best friends."Jemima Kelly: Maybe, but I think they've been friends for a while. The thing with Trump is that he masks so much with his charisma and stage presence and what he calls "flexibility," not U-turning. And his people skills. Then you get the distilled version of him without all of that, and it's just so painfully bad and unpersuasive. There's no successor. Vance is the only one who the bookies currently have as the favorite, but that's because there's no leader on the other side; we don't know who the Democratic leader is.Andrew Keen: Peter Leyden, who was on the show a few days ago, the former editor-in-chief of Wired, believes that Trump is essentially destroying the Republican brand for a generation. It does provide an opportunity for the Democrats in the long term, although the Democrats probably have many problems of their own. Do you agree that ultimately the Republican brand has been decimated and is headed for 20 or 30 years of political isolation?Jemima Kelly: I think what they have going for them is that MAGA has its own name—there was always the MAGA part of the Republican Party and then the "other part" and the RINOs. Now they have somewhat merged, but I imagine that will start to separate if the Trump project keeps doing as badly as it seems to be. But it doesn't feel like there's any separation now between Trump and the institutions that are supposedly independent, with the Fed being an exception despite his saying he'd terminate Powell and then claiming the press made a big deal of it. It does feel like it will be difficult for Republicans to extricate themselves from Trump. There isn't anyone standing up and being vocally anti-Trump on that side at the moment.Andrew Keen: You noted that your satirical X profile "Friends of the Deep State" was borrowed from Liz Truss, who made a fool of herself and now is in political exile. Can we learn anything from the Truss fiasco? It seems to me as if Trump a couple of weeks ago on the bond front was, so to speak, "Trussed"—the market spoke and he had to retreat. Can we learn anything from recent British political or economic history to make sense of what's happening in the US, particularly in terms of Truss, who was humiliated by the markets?Jemima Kelly: Trump has the advantage of shamelessness, doesn't he?Andrew Keen: So you're saying that Liz Truss is not shameless?Jemima Kelly: That's a very good point. You could see the embarrassment on her face. Maybe that is just my projection of how I would feel.Andrew Keen: For people just listening, it's a picture of Liz Truss in New York with a MAGA hat on looking like a complete idiot.Jemima Kelly: Just before the inauguration saying, "It can't come soon enough."Andrew Keen: And she says "the West needs it," whatever that means.Jemima Kelly: She's constantly "saving the West." She was at a Bitcoin conference last weekend giving a speech on saving the West. It's really exciting that we have such capable hands to save the West.Andrew Keen: Especially at the Bitcoin conference.Jemima Kelly: Exactly. They're the real people to do it. What can we learn from Truss? What we can learn, and this takes us into the Democrats, is that a few people have floated the idea that America should have some form of shadow cabinet. One of the reasons that Truss lasted for only 42 days—less than the lettuce—was that we have such a vocal opposition in this country. It's very clear who the spokesperson is from the opposing party. So when a journalist is writing a story about Truss's mini budget, right away, you've got the shadow chancellor to tell you why it's a terrible idea. In America, it's not so clear, and I think that's a disadvantage.Andrew Keen: You wrote an excellent column in the last month on why America needs a "serious opposition."Jemima Kelly: It really opened my eyes, this idea of the shadow cabinet. Obviously, the government has a different structure in the US, and it's not a monarchy, etc. But the idea of some form—even if just in name only—if the Democrats were able to put forward a representative for each of the major government departments, it would help. It made me think that American media often sees itself as "the resistance"—the media is the resistance. I feel like our job is to report the news. Too often it feels like the media was trying to stop Trump from getting reelected or trying to hide that Biden was too old for another four years. The media is far too often doing the work that an opposition should be doing.It dawned on me that this is partly because of the lack of structure that we have with the constant back and forth. As a journalist, rather than having to explain why the Liz Truss mini-budget was bad, you've got someone on the other side to tell you. The Democrats are in disarray. Usually, there's nothing like a common enemy to unite you, and Trump should be that. Amid the tariffs, the trade war, the deportation of immigrants, threats to deport others to horrific Salvadoran prisons—if there were a time to be united, it would be now. This is peak Trump fear, and yet the Democrats have record low approval ratings among their supporters. A Gallup poll showed Republican approval of their congressmen is at 76 percent while Democrats are at 39 percent among Democrats. There is a real void of cohesive or coherent opposition.Andrew Keen: You've been quite critical of the Democrats. Back in July, you talked about the "Biden debacle" and the absurdity of a man clearly out of his depth. But you've also written more recently about Democrats not abandoning their morals. When historians look back, how much of a debacle was the Biden regime? Will it be seen as the trigger that enabled Trump 2.0, or would these things be seen separately?Jemima Kelly: I don't think it was Biden's administration; I think it was the cover-up of his physical decline.Andrew Keen: I wasn't surprised by that debate he had with Trump. He clearly was way beyond his shelf life. It was self-evident if you watched interviews with him.Jemima Kelly: It was already evident. I got into trouble for talking about this before the 2020 election because he had gotten the name of an interviewer wrong, and fact-checking organizations rushed in to say he hadn't. They were lying on his behalf, which shocked me.Andrew Keen: Does that make Trump's point on Truth Social that the media is really the Democratic party, or the two are inseparable?Jemima Kelly: It's funny because every time I've written about this, I've gotten pushback. I was the first "ritual sacrifice" on BlueSky a few months ago because I dared to say it was an echo chamber. Apparently, I implied that I wanted more Nazis on BlueSky, which is obviously sarcasm. One thing I find interesting—if you type "New York Times" into BlueSky, you'll get people complaining about how pro-Trump they are or how they're "both-sides-ists." If you type "New York Times" into X, you'll get people complaining about how anti-Trump they are and how it's just an extension of the Democratic Party.I think there's something like 3-4% of American journalists who vote Republican, so clearly, the media does lean left or Democrat. Trump is now letting really marginal right-wing news outlets into his briefings, which in some ways I don't think is all bad. I think it would be good to have a more balanced media.Andrew Keen: You wrote a good piece in December, "Democrats must not abandon their morals," which I guess goes without saying. There are still morals in the Republican party. Well, certainly ex-Republicans like David Brooks and Peter Wehner seem to be the most convincingly moral Americans. But that's another issue. What advice would you give the Democrats? On one hand, you've got a civil war within the party between its left—Bernie Sanders and AOC—versus centrists. They agree on almost nothing apart from being in the same big tent party. What advice would you give Democrats?Jemima Kelly: I don't feel in a position to give advice.Andrew Keen: What would you like to see then?Jemima Kelly: Just to be clear about the "Democrats shouldn't abandon their morals" column, that was written after Biden pardoned his son Hunter, which I found uncool. I hate that. I was arguing that if you're going to talk about how immoral the Trump project is and how full of lies it is—and it is all those things—then you have to show that you're better. I felt that was a failure during the first Trump term.I think outlets like the New York Times are doing better this time around. But there was an op-ed written after the first Trump victory about how objectivity needed to be abandoned, like there was a new game to play. I think that's really short-termist and will set a terrible precedent. Trump has come in again on the back of a massive loss of trust in institutions, which was already happening but was made worse by COVID—all the debates about origins, vaccines, etc. That chipped away at trust in science, government, and institutions in general.I write a lot about virtue and honor. I just wrote about hope. I don't think we think about values enough. Only the right in America seems to talk about religion. I'm not even a Christian myself—I was raised Catholic but don't consider myself that anymore—but I feel that values and morality aren't spoken about enough. The Democrats need to take the high ground. They were pulling up placards saying "Lie" at Trump's address to Congress, wearing colors to represent protest. AOC was doing videos saying "choose your fighter," trying to appeal to young people. It was all so cringe and inauthentic. When Trump is being seen as authentic, and Bernie Sanders, who does come across as authentic, there's such a vacuum of authenticity.Andrew Keen: You noted that one of the reasons why Trump is so successful is his eccentricity. That's one of his attractive qualities. A couple of quick questions before we go. You're at the FT, so you're supposed to understand the global economy. Back in September, you talked about America's crypto election. I have a nagging suspicion that crypto might be one of the things that ultimately blows up Trump. There is a lot of fraud within the administration on crypto, with some people making vast fortunes. Trump or his administration is in bed with the Bitcoin bros. What do you make of this association? Because Trump historically has always been ambivalent about crypto. Is this a sideshow or could it become the main show?Jemima Kelly: I don't think it could become the main show just because crypto is still not systemically important enough. If we compare it to the trade war, it pales in comparison in terms of numbers. The IMF downgrading forecasts by one percentage point for the US—that is far more likely to bring down Trump economically.Andrew Keen: Could we be seeing a restructuring of the global financial economy where crypto becomes an alternative to the Fed, given Trump's hostility towards the Fed?Jemima Kelly: God, no, not in my opinion. My ultimate point with crypto—and by the way, people who believe in Bitcoin (and I use the word "believe" deliberately because I do regard it as a belief system) think that Bitcoin is different from other crypto because it's the first one and will only have 21 million coins ever minted. But these are just strings of digits. Then someone comes along and says, "oh no, Bitcoin and Ethereum," and someone else adds Dogecoin as well.These aren't companies like the S&P 500 where there's a finite list. Each of these coins does absolutely nothing, and there's no limit to the number that can exist. I could speak about crypto for hours, but I always come back to the fact that there is no scarcity. Bitcoiners hate when I say this because they claim Bitcoin is different. There is no limit to the number of cryptocurrencies that can exist. If you look at CoinMarketCap.com, they used to count how many cryptocurrencies there were, but I think it got embarrassing because the counter disappeared. There are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands at this point. How can there be value when there's no scarcity?Andrew Keen: I hope you're right on that front. Finally, you've been very critical of Silicon Valley and big tech. You wrote a piece recently on Mark Zuckerberg caving into Trump. Zuckerberg caved in, Bezos appears to have with the Washington Post, some law firms have, some haven't. Do you think this will come back to haunt opportunists like Zuckerberg? Is it in the interest, not just moral but economic, of American business leaders, university leaders, and heads of law firms to stand up to all this nonsense?Jemima Kelly: I think so, yes. We have so glorified wealth that people only seem to think value exists in financial terms. If I were Mark Zuckerberg, I would care about what people thought of me, but that's even superficial. I would care about being able to sleep well at night. I don't know how these people justify it.I heard a Mark Andreessen podcast a few months ago where he said, "The one thing people don't understand about billionaires is they don't care about money. They just want people to like them." I thought that was really interesting, but it doesn't seem to match their actions.Andrew Keen: Well, we probably should end. I'm not sure if you've written any columns on Musk, but he seems to represent all of this. He's clearly distancing himself from Trump, just as Trump is distancing himself from Musk. Are we beginning to see the end of this love affair between the Musks and the Andreessens with Trump?Jemima Kelly: It's interesting because Musk was supposedly the savior of electric cars, but the current-day Musk would be so skeptical of electric cars. It's weird that he was that guy and now has to keep being that guy to a certain extent because it's his brand. I think he's been radicalized by people not liking him, and he's being pushed further into this corner because he wants to feel part of a tribe. Now he feels like he fits in at Mar-a-Lago and hangs out with Trump.Do I think that's the end of their relationship? It's hard to know. I wouldn't be surprised if they did fall out quite soon. But they're both very strange people, aren't they?Andrew Keen: To put it mildly. You've got a big picture of the two of them in a Tesla on the cover of the Financial Times. I think they're both secretly fans of Millwall Football Club with their famous song "Nobody Loves Us, We Don't Care."Jemima Kelly: What?Andrew Keen: I'm joking, but maybe the same is true of Donald Trump and certainly Elon Musk.Jemima Kelly: They care so much. That's what's funny. Trump cares more than anyone about people loving him. I think that's what drives him. He really wants to be seen as a good president, which comforts me when things are going badly because I think he wants people to love him. He really wants the Nobel Peace Prize, which is hilarious, but he does want that.Andrew Keen: Well, one thing we've resolved today is that Donald Trump is not a fan of Millwall Football Club. He wants everybody to love him. He does care if they don't. Jemima, I know you don't really care because you're someone who will always say what you think. We'll have to get you back on the show for The View from London. Not an eccentric view, but an irreverent view. Thank you so much, Jemima Kelly, columnist of the FT. We will have you back on the show. Keep well.Jemima Kelly: Thank you, you too. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit keenon.substack.com/subscribe
The Atlantic's Peter Wehner offers insights into the transformation of the GOP from the party that passed PEPFAR to the MAGA warriors of today. The Mona Charen Show is a weekly, one-on-one discussion that goes in depth on political and cultural topics. New shows drop Mondays. Find this show wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. Go to Hungryroot.com/CHAREN and use code CHAREN to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. REFERENCES: Peter's recent work at The Atlantic Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du Mez The Closing of the American Mindby Allan Bloom The Power of the Powerless and Summer Meditations by Václav Havel The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1984 by George Orwell
This is an important interview. I've always thought of the political essayist Peter Wehner as representing the conscience of conservative, religious America. Wehner, who writes both for the Atlantic and the New York Times, has been offering a moral critique of Trump's MAGA movement since 2015. And now that many of his direst warnings are being realized, his voice is amongst the most important in America. In this conversation, Wehner, a religious conservative who worked in several Republican administrations, reiterates his moral critique of Trump, explaining how revenge has become an obsessive emotion that is corrupting both MAGA leaders and followers. He expresses concern about how Trump's behavior is "emotionally rewiring" otherwise decent people, and contrasts this with a figure like the Czech dissident Vaclav Havel who stood defiantly for truth in the face of petty, revengeful authoritarianism. Five Key Takeaways from the Wehner Interview* Revenge as Trump's driving force - Wehner identifies revenge as Trump's core motivation, describing it as an insatiable appetite that crowds out noble emotions and justifies destructive actions.* Moral corruption spreads - Wehner warns that Trump's behavior is "emotionally rewiring" his supporters, with many now taking pleasure in cruelty and transgression rather than just tolerating it.* Religious hypocrisy - Wehner expresses deep disappointment in white evangelical Christians' embrace of Trump, noting the contradiction between their professed faith values and their celebration of Trump's cruelty.* Truth-telling as resistance - Inspired by dissidents like Vaclav Havel, Wehner emphasizes that speaking truth is essential resistance to authoritarianism, even when institutions and leaders are capitulating.* Institutional courage matters - Wehner contrasts organizations and leaders who stand firm (like The Atlantic) with those making "deals with the devil" (like The Washington Post), highlighting the importance of courage during this "stress test" for democracy.Peter Wehner, a Senior Fellow at the Trinity Forum, is a contributing Opinion writer for The New York Times and a contributing writer for The Atlantic, two of the most prestigious media journals in the world. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports and friendships. Mr. Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives. Mr. Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which The New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia.Named as one of the "100 most connected men" by GQ magazine, Andrew Keen is amongst the world's best known broadcasters and commentators. In addition to presenting the daily KEEN ON show, he is the host of the long-running How To Fix Democracy interview series. He is also the author of four prescient books about digital technology: CULT OF THE AMATEUR, DIGITAL VERTIGO, THE INTERNET IS NOT THE ANSWER and HOW TO FIX THE FUTURE. Andrew lives in San Francisco, is married to Cassandra Knight, Google's VP of Litigation & Discovery, and has two grown children.Keen On America is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit keenon.substack.com/subscribe
Senior members of Trump's Cabinet got caught sharing attack plans—down to details of who they were planning to kill, and with what kind of weapons, while also wishing Godspeed to our soldiers—and now they'll say anything to get out of the jam they put themselves in. Also, JD Vance openly questioned the judgement of the president in front of those very senior Cabinet members. Meanwhile, vengeance has long been a defining feature of Trump, but the habits of his heart have also infected his supporters. And they've become a moral freak show cheering on deportations of families and starving Africans. Jeff Goldberg and Pete Wehner join Tim Miller. show notes Jeff's original scoop on getting texted war plans (gifted) Pete's piece on Trump's insatiable appetite for revenge Trump's 1992 interview with Charlie Rose
In this conversation, host Corey Nathan welcomes back Peter Wehner, contributing writer at The Atlantic and The New York Times, senior fellow at the Trinity Forum, and author of multiple books including The Death of Politics and City of Man. A former speechwriter for President George W. Bush, Pete brings a unique perspective shaped by his deep political experience, Christian faith, and unwavering moral compass. Together, Corey and Pete engage in a wide-ranging conversation on the 2024 election, the moral health of our nation, the role of the church, and the constitutional implications of a second Trump presidency. What We Discuss: How Pete Wehner processed the pivotal moments of the 2024 election, including Biden's withdrawal and Kamala Harris's campaign Why Donald Trump's reelection reveals unsettling truths about American society and the church How constitutional crises might unfold under Trump's second term Why thinkers like Vaclav Havel, Solzhenitsyn, and Tocqueville are essential guides in this political moment How to have more effective and empathetic conversations across political and religious divides Episode Highlights: [00:01:00] – Introduction to Pete Wehner's background and career [00:02:00] – Pete reflects on Biden's debate performance and why he felt Biden should have withdrawn sooner [00:05:00] – Analysis of Kamala Harris's campaign, debate performance, and what ultimately cost her the election [00:09:00] – The moral reckoning: what Trump's reelection says about American voters and the church [00:14:00] – Pete dissects why evangelicals have remained loyal to Trump and how rationalizations took hold [00:27:00] – A 30-page email exchange: Pete's attempt to reason with a high-profile Trump supporter and what it revealed [00:34:00] – Trump's “appetite for revenge”: Pete outlines troubling actions already taken in just 60 days of Trump's second term [00:41:00] – Defining a constitutional crisis and what happens when a president defies court rulings [00:46:00] – Finding hope and moral clarity through leaders like Havel, Solzhenitsyn, and Tocqueville [00:50:00] – The TP&R question: Pete's insights on how to build better conversations across our differences Featured Quotes: “Donald Trump is president because of the white evangelical vote. He touched something deep in the hearts of many Christians—and that should trouble us.” – Peter Wehner “Hope is not the conviction that something will turn out well; it's the certainty that something makes sense, regardless of how it turns out.” – Vaclav Havel (quoted by Pete) “We're moving toward a constitutional crisis... If Trump defies a court order, we may find out how many divisions Chief Justice John Roberts really has.” – Peter Wehner “We have to prioritize human relationships. The ripple effects for the country can be healthy.” – Peter Wehner Resources Mentioned: Peter Wehner's articles in The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/peter-wehner/ Peter Wehner's columns in The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/column/peter-wehner “The Power of the Powerless” by Vaclav Havel: https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/resource/the-power-of-the-powerless/ The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: https://www.amazon.com/Gulag-Archipelago-1918-1956-Experiment-Investigation/dp/0061253804 Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/815/815-h/815-h.htm
The Bulletin discusses Trump disruptions, university investigations, and the recent Syrian massacre. Find us on YouTube. Clarissa and Mike cover this week's headlines as they ask, “Is this the MAGA Americans wanted?” Political commentator Charlie Sykes joins the show to talk about the disruptiveness of Trump's first 50 days in office. Then, The Atlantic's Peter Wehner stops by for a thoughtful conversation about the state of US universities, tribalism, and the uniquely Christian posture of hopeful inquiry. Finally, we consider Syria's recent Alawite massacre and the future of peace in this war-torn region with research analyst Ahmad Sharawi. GO DEEPER WITH THE BULLETIN: Join us and go deeper on our Substack. Find us on YouTube. Rate and review the show in your podcast app of choice. ABOUT THE GUESTS: Peter Wehner is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He was formerly a speechwriter for George W. Bush and a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. Wehner is a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times, and his work also appears in publications including The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and National Affairs. Charles J. Sykes is one of the most influential conservatives in Wisconsin. Until he stepped down in December after 23 years, Sykes was one of the state's top-rated talk show hosts. He is currently an MSNBC contributor. Sykes has written for The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Politico, Salon, USA Today, National Review, The Weekly Standard, and other national publications. He has appeared on the Today Show, ABC, NBC, Fox News, CNN, PBS, and the BBC and has been profiled on NPR. He has also spoken extensively on university campuses. Ahmad Sharawi is a research analyst at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, focusing on Middle East affairs, specifically the Levant, Iraq, and Iranian intervention in Arab affairs, as well as US foreign policy toward the region. Previously, Sharawi worked at The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, where he focused mainly on Hezbollah. He created a map visualizing the border clashes on the Israeli-Lebanese frontier and authored articles on Jordan and Morocco. Sharawi previously worked at the International Finance Corporation and S&P Global. He holds a BA in international relations from King's College London and an MA from Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service. ABOUT THE BULLETIN: The Bulletin is a weekly (and sometimes more!) current events show from Christianity Today hosted and moderated by Clarissa Moll, with senior commentary from Russell Moore (Christianity Today's editor in chief) and Mike Cosper (director, CT Media). Each week, the show explores current events and breaking news and shares a Christian perspective on issues that are shaping our world. We also offer special one-on-one conversations with writers, artists, and thought leaders whose impact on the world brings important significance to a Christian worldview, like Bono, Sharon McMahon, Harrison Scott Key, Frank Bruni, and more. “The Bulletin” is a production of Christianity Today Producer: Clarissa Moll Associate Producer: Leslie Thompson Editing and Mix: Kevin Morris Music: Dan Phelps Executive Producers: Erik Petrik and Mike Cosper Senior Producer: Matt Stevens Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Is it possible to change Washington, D.C. without it changing you? Today's guest, Peter Wehner, thinks so. But he's also a bit of an anomaly: a serious Christian who felt he never had to compromise his faith while serving in the Reagan and both Bush administrations. How did his faith and career merge? Did he ever have to hold back on what he believed in order to keep his role as an advisor? How did he justify the decisions around the wars going on at the time? Hear Peter and Keith discuss how serving in the highest levels of politics can (and can't!) corrupt your faith. And what kinds of pressures do all Christians face to conform? Listen now! Are you an advisor like Peter? Or maybe you're an artist, protester, trainer, builder, or ambassador? Find out by taking our quick quiz now: https://joyfuloutsiders.com/archetype-assessment Have you read "Joyful Outsiders" yet? It's available now! Learn more, read a sample chapter, and grab your own copy here: https://joyfuloutsiders.com/ Ok, truth time... Did you like this episode? Tell us by leaving a rating or review!
Everyone wants love and community in a fractured world. What happens when they are lost? Host Curtis Chang and Pete Wehner, a columnist for The Atlantic and former White House staffer, explore the deep sense of political, cultural, and spiritual exile felt by many Americans. Reflecting on Pete's journey from shaping policy during 9/11 to breaking from the Republican Party over Donald Trump, they discuss the challenges of shifting identities while staying true to one's convictions. Drawing from the Psalms, cognitive psychology, and Christian history, they offer a vision for engaging culture and finding new purpose amid political disillusionment and feelings of living in exile, even in the place you call home. This episode revisits a past conversation to examine cognitive dissonance and the pursuit of truth in times of uncertainty. Send written questions or voice memos for “Ask Curtis” episodes to: askcurtis@redeemingbabel.org Get a 25% discount when you buy The Art of Disagreeing by Gavin Ortland at thegoodbook.com with code: GOODFAITH Resources From This Episode: Psalm 126 (New Living Translation) Winston Churchill's Painting as a Pastime A Short History Of The Dardanelles Campaign The GOP and the Birther Trap (article) by Pete Wehner Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion Jonathan Rauch's The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth Jeremiah 29 (New Living Translation) Makoto Fujimura's Culture Care: Reconnecting with Beauty for Our Common Life Mark Labberton's talk: The Deep Work of a New Creation Mark Labberton's talk: Beauty in Exile Rodney Stark (books) Russell Moore clip: “Jesus is a hood ornament” 2 Corinthians 5 New Living Translation More From Pete Wehner: Read Peter Wehner's latest article: MAGA Has Found a New Model Peter Wehner's The Atlantic opinion pieces Peter Wehner at The Trinity Forum Follow Us: Good Faith on Instagram Good Faith on X (formerly Twitter) Good Faith on Facebook Sign up: Redeeming Babel Newsletter
Journalist Jon Rauch's smart new book from Yale University Press, Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain With Democracy, offers three provocative and insightful essays. Though an outsider to Christianity—as he tells his long-time friend Pete Wehner of the Trinity Forum, Jon is a “gay Jewish atheist born in 1960”—Jon's new treatise follows a dozen books, and hundreds of articles, covering topics from free inquiry to gay marriage, political realism to happiness, and the constitution of knowledge to matters of American political economy. The book explores the history and implications of three modes of the Christian faith in America. The first Jon terms Thin Christianity, embodied by mainline Protestantism. The second is Sharp Christianity—really MAGA white evangelicalism, what Jon calls a “fear-based” church. But the third chapter, Jon makes a case for Thick Christianity, exemplified by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and other creative exilic religious minorities who have made peace with the fact of pluralism and the democratic opportunity of compromise and negotiation—the principles James Madison also affirmed. He calls this book a sort of atonement for his past arguments that American society, and its political system, would be better without the influence of religions convictions. What changed for Jon? Partly it was his realizing that religion is a load-bearing wall, in any democracy. But partly it was an emergent friendship with Pete Wehner and with other thinking believers who have enlarged Jon's vision. Guests Jonathan Rauch Peter Wehner Additional Resources “Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy,” by Jonathan Rauch “Let It Be: Three Cheers for Apatheism” by Jonathan Rauch "Evangelicals Made a Bad Trade" by Peter Wehner
Ken welcomes Washington political commentator, speechwriter, and author Peter Wehner. Pete is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He is well known for his prolific contribution to the intersection of politics, public policy, and faith. Early on, he identified as a conservative, a Republican, and an Evangelical. From 2011, when Donald Trump campaigned to challenge the legitimacy of the Obama Presidency, suggesting that he was born in Kenya and not the U.S.A., Wehner has called out the danger of a Trump presidency. Pete has been a stalwart in opposing Donald Trump and in the process, he no longer identifies as a Republican or an Evangelical. He remains a traditional conservative. However, he has offered a powerful and sustained critique of evangelical support for Donald Trump and a Republican Party that has become subservient to the newly elected President. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson played a key role in that transition. Ken and Pete have a lively discussion over his early years as a new Christian, his college career, the influence of his scientist father, his move to Washington, Reagan's speech after the Challenger disaster, George Bush's 9/11 speech (Pete was in the White House that fateful day), and finally Donald Trump's complete take-over of the Republican Party and his return to the White House for a second term. SHOW NOTESBecome a Patron | Ken's Substack PageEpisode #398Support the show
A special episode for the inauguration of Donald Trump's second term, as the forty-seventh president of the United States. Whether you're filled with hope and joy, or anxiety and fearfulness, how can we pursue a common citizenship that is grounded in faith and moral sensitivity, focused on justice and love, and rightfully patriotic? Today, Mark welcomes friends Pete Wehner (columnist, The Atlantic, and Fellow, Trinity Forum), Anne Snyder (editor-in-chief, Comment magazine), and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary). Together they discuss: The inauguration of Donald Trump for his second term in office; The meaning of patriotism in an unfolding, rambunctious democratic experiment; Repentance, repair, and understanding; How to keep a moral-ethical grounding in political life; Balancing open curiosity and genuine concern; What rejuvenates and renews us during anxious political times (exploring beauty in nature and art); Learning disagreement in a post-civility era; Peacemaking instead of polarization; Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal; And how to pray for Donald Trump as he enters his next term in office. About Peter Wehner Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships. Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives. Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia. About Anne Snyder Anne Snyder is the editor-in-chief of Comment magazine, **which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit comment.org for more information. For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large. Anne also oversees Comment's partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022). About David Goatley David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995). In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment. Show Notes What each guest values and honours about America, expressing commitment and affection as citizens “Any presidential inauguration is weight bearing.” Pete Wehner: a first-generation American From ideals to reality about the history of America “ I'm the kind of patriot who is committed to the country being the best that it can be.” “Rambunctious unfolding-still … democratic experiment.” The scene for Inauguration Day 2021 Strength and vitality of American life What are your commitments and hopes for the next four years? “Some of my siblings for whom their angst is new, and I'm happy to say, welcome to my world.” The posture of believers and people of good will to “keep a moral ethical grounding” “Justice, especially for the dispossessed, the aliens, the powerless” Pulled in different directions Eugene Peterson formulation: “There's the Jesus truth, and the Jesus way.” Called to be different things at different moments Name reality as best we can “Is it possible to be both prophetic and the force of unity at the same time?” Will there be a World War III in the next decade? Creative ways to develop resilience “A great chastening” “I feel both curious and really concerned.” When patience runs out “ I'm socially and humanly curious—and strangely a little hopeful for new frames of how we are with one another—but I am steeling myself for turbulence and violence at a time when it feels like we can't afford those things.” The shifting global stage The need for deep compassion and energy that doesn't stop listening or caring What rejuvenates and renews you in this moment? Being outside, natural beauty, artistic beauty, and staying actively in community with people who will stay reflective. Turning off the news National Gallery of Art's Impressionist exhibit (link) “For most of us, our day-to-day lives, even in the political realm, are not really driven primarily by what's happening with the presidency.” Jon Batiste “Healthy, substantive arguments that are not ad hominem” Are we living in the post-civility era? Peacemaking instead of polarization Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal “Something has gone deeply wrong in the white evangelical world” “ I'm completely fine with deconstruction as long as there's reconstruction.” “There's a great line that the ancient Greeks used, Bobby Kennedy used that in a speech of his in the late ‘60s, where he said that the task was to tame the savageness of man and to make gentle the life of this world.” Prayers for Donald Trump That the Spirit of God would overshadow Donald Trump and political leaders That “Not our will but Thy will be done.” For moral sensitivity ”I'll just be candid here. I have a sense that he's a, he is a person with a lot of brokenness in his life.” “We're part of a story, and there's an author. … But those chapters aren't the whole story.” A notorious chapter in American history Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
In this week's conversation between Dr. James Emery White and co-host Alexis Drye, they discuss how this time of year always leads to both reflection on the year that has passed, as well as thoughts of what the year ahead will hold. For those listeners who subscribe to the Church & Culture blog, you'll have read Dr. White's recent blog titled “Twelve Predictions for 2025.” As Alexis noted, while the blog may not have contained worst-case scenario predictions, the list certainly wasn't optimistic. We didn't have time to walk through all twelve in this episode, but you'll be interested to hear more about what to anticipate for the year ahead. Episode Links The conversation started off with the massive shift that has taken place in our culture today - that churches seem far more invested in ideology than theology. This is not the first time this issue has been raised on the podcast. We'd encourage you to go back and listen to some past episodes if you missed them: CCP112: On January 6 and the Fastest Growing Christian Movement in America, CCP46: On the Clash over Religious Freedom and CCP37: On Christian Nationalism. Another concern that Dr. White shared has to do with the church taking the non-essentials of Christian orthodoxy and elevating them unnecessarily. This has been prevalent in the Church with the rise over the debate about women serving in ministry and the increasing embrace of Calvinism. Both of these topics have been discussed at length on the podcast, so we'd encourage you to go back and listen to these two episodes: CCP7: On Women in Ministry and CCP59: On Calvinism. The conversation then turned to parenting, and Dr. White noted an Aspen Institute study from 2022 that found children involved with travel sports teams spend 16.6 hours per week on average with those teams - including Sundays. What's sad is that the spiritual formation of these children is significantly impacted. You can read more about that study HERE. There are two past podcast episodes related to parenting that we've aired if you're interested in listening to those: CCP60: On Gentle Parenting and CCP101: On “Bluey” and Modern Fatherhood. Pivoting back to the Church, they discussed the need for the Church at large to truly become hybrid - offering a blend of online and in-person experiences. We'd encourage you to read Dr. White's book Hybrid Church for an in-depth look at how to make this shift in your church. The shift to the hybrid is part of what led to Mecklenburg Community Church's decision to end our multi-site model. You can read more about that in the Church & Culture blog “Why We're Ending Our Multi-Site Approach.” You can also check out the podcast conversation that he had with Carey Nieuwhof about this subject HERE. There are so many cultural changes taking place these days it's hard to keep up. And both Christians and non-Christians are often interested in knowing how the church would weigh in on these topics. Dr. White delivered a series at Mecklenburg Community Church called “What the Bible Really Says About…” after we polled Meck attenders via social media to find out their most pressing questions. The topics covered in this series include: A.I., Politics, Immigration, IVF and Abortion, and Angels. Finally, the podcast concluded with a look at the decivilization that has been taking place in our culture today - as though we have lost the ability to see others the way that God sees them. Even those outside the church are taking note of this. Dr. White referenced several recent articles in The Atlantic which have focused on this: Adrienne LaFrance, “Decivilization May Already Be Under Way,” The Atlantic, December 11, 2024, read online. Peter Wehner, “An Astonishing Level of Dehumanization,” The Atlantic, December 31, 2024, read online. For those of you who are new to Church & Culture, we'd love to invite you to subscribe (for free of course) to the twice-weekly Church & Culture blog and check out the Daily Headline News - a collection of headlines from around the globe each weekday. We'd also love to hear from you if there is a topic that you'd like to see discussed on the Church & Culture Podcast in an upcoming episode. You can find the form to submit your questions at the bottom of the podcast page HERE.
How should we respond to the anxiety, fear, and catastrophizing of Election Day? Is there an alternative to fight, flight, or freeze? Can people of Christian conviction stand firm, grounded in faith, leaning into the storm? In this special Election Day episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton welcomes Peter Wehner (columnist, the New York Times, The Atlantic) and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary) to make sense of the moral, emotional, and spiritual factors operating in the 2024 US general election. Together they discuss the emotional response to political media; faithful alternatives to the overabundance of fear, anxiety, and catastrophizing; how the threat of affective polarization divides families and friendships; biblical attitudes toward troubling or frightening political and cultural events; how to respond to vitriol, anger, cynicism, hate, and manipulative language; and how the church can help restore trust and be a faithful witness, standing firm through the political storm. About Peter Wehner Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships. Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives. Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia. About David Goatley David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995). In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment. Show Notes Anxiety, Uncertainty, and Worst-Case Scenarios The regular appeal to “the most important election of our lifetimes” Assuming the worst about others “We are at a fork in the road for a certain kind of vision of who we want to be.” “As an African American, many of us always live in the crosswinds.” Living with fragility, vulnerability, and uncertainty Hymn: “On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand” Anger, Antipathy, and Fear Passions and beliefs—and an electoral system built to amplify those “They're more amplified than in the past.” Families and friendships that divide over politics. Feeling like we “share a continent but not a country” Affective polarization—”There's a sense of the other side being an enemy.” Catastrophizing Recalibrate, reset, and rethink Hoping that calmer heads prevail Church splintering and aligning with partisan politics “God will use all things—not that God intends all things.” The political balance wheel “Fear is not a Christian state of mind.” “Hope is based on something real.” “The long game for believers is to hearken back to the early church and remember that Jesus is Lord, and the emperor is not.” Political toxicity that infects the household of faith “We have to do all that we can to live with peacefully with each other.” Vitriol, hubris “It's important to name things. … If you don't name them—if you try to hide them—then you can't begin the process of healing.” “Faith is subordinate to other factors that they're not aware of.” The Era of Fear: What informs our fears? What can we do about our fears? Fear of the Lord that sets us free Firmness as an alternative to fighting or fleeing “Valuing the vibrant diversity of God” “Expand your reading.” Breaking out of conformity and homogeneity “Meeting the moment”: Inflection points in a human life or a society's life—a moment for leaders to rise up, speak, and shape Example: Winston Churchill and Great Britain pre–World War II (from pariah to prime minister) Example: Jonathan Haidt's The Anxious Generation and the agenda to make schools phone-free These aren't the conditions for human flourishing “We've got to be faithful. We may not be successful.” Cultivating a political garden to prepare the soil for shared core values of decency, respect, fairness “… what we have loved, / Others will love, and we will teach them how” (William Wordsworth, “The Prelude”) Loving the right things Voting “Complicating my view of the world.” “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” Before voting: “A prayer to submit myself to the will of God.” “Tell me how you came to believe what you believe … over time it can create a feeling of trust” “What don't I see? What about my own blindspots?” Stunned by the profundity and sobering word that “God will not be mocked” Expressing convictions through voting Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
There's no question we're living in difficult times that lead many of us to adopt a cynical outlook. But while cynicism might feel smart, science shows it's corrosive not only to our own wellbeing, but to society as a whole. We'll talk to Stanford Professor of Psychology Jamil Zaki about the surprising benefits that a willingness to trust in the goodness of others can offer, and how to build this skill in a wise way through habits of mind and action.We'll also speak with political writer Peter Wehner about how cynicism leads to the political division and discord so prominent in politics today, and how religion, when practiced in its best form, can help overcome it.Jamil Zaki is the author of the new book Hope for Cynics: The Surprising Science of Human Goodness, and the author of The War for Kindness: Building Empathy in a Fractured Word. Find out more about his work on his website. Peter Wehner is a contributing writer for The New York Times and The Atlantic who served in three Republican administrations. He is the author of The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump and City of Man: Religion and Politics in a New Era.
Host Curtis Chang and guest Pete Wehner (columnist at The Atlantic and former speechwriter for George W. Bush) share their personal journeys to their pro-life convictions, while also explaining how their views depart from much of the politics and practices of the current pro-life movement. They examine how this issue has distorted evangelicals, Trump, and the Republican Party. Curtis also reframes the politics of abortion through the Old Testament offices of “prophet, priest, and king,” offering a way to understand how Christians can most helpfully integrate their religious beliefs with their social engagement. Listen to Songs For the After Party, get sheet music, lyrics, and prayers for your church. Bring The After Party course to your church or small group! Let the Good Faith podcast “Stack Your Shelf.” Enter HERE to win 16 books by friends of the pod. Join Curtis Chang in person: See Curtis Chang and David French at Redeemer Presbyterian Church in NYC See Curtis Chang and Tim Alberta at Wheaton College For a window into the hermeneutical debate over Exodus 21:22-25: Read this pro-life analysis of the text from an article in Christianity Today (written in 1973 but still relevant) Read this balanced take (also from a pro-life writer) of the problems with “proof-texting” practiced by both sides For an even more detailed overview about the interpretive challenges in play with Exodus 21 and other passages, read Mako Nagasawa's book, Abortion Policy and Christian Social Ethics in the United States. Referenced in this episode: Read Charles Krauthammer's Washington Post opinion piece from February 15, 1985 "Abortion Debate: Just Words" Watch the trailer for Juno, Diablo Cody's 2007 film about teenage pregnancy Pew Research Center What the data says about abortion in the U.S. Crisis pregnancy care through Avail NYC and Claris Health Explore Peter Wehner's work: Read Peter Wehner's The Atlantic article from August 27, 2024: Trump's Evangelical Supporters Just Lost Their Best Excuse Read more of Peter Wehner's opinion pieces in The Atlantic Engage with a broad cross-section of Peter Wehner's work linked At the Trinity Forum, where he serves as a Senior Fellow
The Atlantic's Peter Wehner joins the group to discuss the DNC and Harris's new tone, Trump's pivot on abortion, and the misfit toys (RFK Jr., Gabbard) of the Trump campaign. Highlights / Lowlights: Mona: Can We Be a Little Less Selective With Our Moral Outrage? by Bret Stephens in The New York Times. Peter: Lowlight: Trump Insists He Won California in Wild, Jesus-Filled Rant With Dr. Phil (Daily Beast) Damon: Highlight: Conservatism: The Fight for a Tradition by Edmund Fawcett Bill: Highlights: The Return of Hamiltonian Statecraft by Walter Russell Mead and Stopping the Next China Shock by Aaron L. Friedberg Linda: Highlight: Making Race Skin Deep by Quico Toro in Persuasion
Trust in our elected officials seems at an all-time low. Moral failures, infighting, and scandals have become commonplace. Today, on Unbelievable? we ask, Can we rediscover the moral compass in politics? With crucial primaries taking place in the USA and an election in the UK on July 4 we are asking what should be the standard for behaviour of elected officials? And who decides? The discussion is hosted by BBC veteran broadcaster Roger Bolton. Can politics uplift and inspire? Is our political identity intertwined with our personal one? How can Christians reshape politics for the greater good? Michael Wear, the founder of the Center for Christianity and Public Life, emphasizes the importance of gentleness in American political dialogue. As a key figure in President Obama's faith outreach and a prolific writer, Wear advocates for integrating Christian values into public life for the benefit of all. Watch out for another perspective on this topic from Shane Idleman, coming soon on Unbelievable?. #politics #election #morality #moralpolitics #christiannationalism SOCIAL LINKS: Twitter: https://twitter.com/unbelievablefe Facebook: / https://facebook.com/premierunbelievable Instagram: / https://instagram.com/premierunbelievable Tik Tok: / https://tiktok.com/@premier.unbelievable Other shows to check on for other perspectives on this topic:
Swifties are celebrating the record-breaking release of two new albums, but some conservative Christians are not happy. They're accusing Taylor Swift of mocking Christianity and promoting witchcraft. Our resident Swiftie, Kaitlyn Schiess, explains the controversy. Then, former presidential speechwriter and contributor to The Atlantic, Pete Wehner, talks with Skye about the future of the Republican Party. Will the Trump spell ever break? Also this week—the end of America's monoculture, and how dumb were dinosaurs? 00 - Intro 1:03 - Show Starts 2:15 - Theme Song 2:35 - Sponsor - Wheaton Graduate School - Learn in a rich, rigorous Christian environment - www.wheaton.edu/holypost 3:36 - Sponsor - The Pour Over - Subscribe for free to news that points to eternal hope - https://www.thepourover.org/holy-post 4:50 - Update on Phil 6:08 - Dinosaurs—Were They Smart? 13:00 - Is Taylor Swift Mocking Christians? 15:12 - Taylor Swift's Bohemian Mishmash 18:12 - Artistic vs Political Usage of Biblical Language 23:13 - Taylor Swift and Kids 23:23 - Children and Public Spaces 31:02 - Portrayal vs Endorsement 35:18 - Everything is a Cult Now and 20th Century Communication Technology 40:17 - What Even is Mainstream? 44:27 - Labels and the Good Samaritan 50:14 - Choice and Community 55:43 - Sponsor - Faithful Counseling - Get 10% off your first month at www.betterhelp.com/HOLYPOST 56:42 - Sponsor - Go to https://www.songfinch.com/HOLYPOST and start your song – after you purchase, you'll be prompted to add Spotify Streaming for your original song for FREE! That's a $50 value! 58:13 - Interview 1:03:48 - What Radicalized the Republican Voter Base? 1:08:25 - Where There Signs 20 Years Ago That Radicalization Was Coming? 1:11:30 - Pro-Life Republicans Changing Their Stances? 1:22:20 - What's the Future for the GOP? 1:33:58 - End Credits Links Mentioned in the News Segment: T. Rex Was Probably About As Intelligent as a Crocodile https://www.popsci.com/science/t-rex-intelligence/ Taylor Swift's Religious Imagery for a Spiritually Syncretic Era https://religionnews.com/2024/04/23/taylor-swifts-ttpd-religious-imagery-for-a-spiritually-syncretic-era/ Taylor Swift Mocks Christianity in Her New Album https://www.movieguide.org/news-articles/taylor-swift-mocks-christianity-in-her-new-album.html Everything's a Cult Now https://www.vox.com/the-gray-area/24133960/america-cult-internet-culture-end-monoculture-communication-tribalism#:~:text=Writer%20Derek%20Thompson%20on%20how,we're%20never%20going%20back.&text=The%20internet%20has%20fractured%20our,and%20habits%20of%20everyone%20online. Other resources: The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump: https://a.co/d/2ute7Ua Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/ Holy Post Plus: www.holypost.com/plus Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost Holy Post Merch Store: https://www.holypost.com/shop The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.
Political power often changes the church more than the church changes those in power—the most glaring example is the damage Trump has done to the credibility of the white evangelical world. Plus, Bill Barr is a liar, and the evolution of Mike Johnson. Peter Wehner joins Tim Miller. show notes: AP story on Bill Barr and the Mueller Report Pete's piece on the forgotten radicalism of Jesus Christ
It's no secret that modern American Christians are deeply divided over politics. This division raises important questions about the influence of Scripture on political beliefs. To make sense of this, we invited renowned scholar NT Tom Wright, theologian, professor and star of the "Ask NT Wright Anything Podcast" along with New York Times bestselling author Dr. Preston M. Sprinkle host of the Theology in the Raw podcast. Tom Wright stresses the need for Christians to prioritise the kingdom of God and embody its values within the church. Preston talks about how Israel's exile to Babylon, Jesus' mission on earth, and the teachings of Paul all shaped the church's relationship with politics and can inform our own relationship with politics today. Tom Wright's co-author Mike Bird came on Unbelievable (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zieWeTqe2qc). This is part of our continuing series on navigating politics. #politics #godandpolitics #ntwrightonline #debate SOCIAL LINKS: Twitter: / unbelievablefe Facebook: / premierunbelievable Instagram: / premierunbelievable Tik Tok: / premierunbelievable • Subscribe to the Unbelievable? podcast: https://pod.link/267142101 • Support us: https://www.premierunbelievable.com/donate FOR TOM: Read Tom Wright and Michael Bird's book Jesus and the Powers Ask NT Wright Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/ask-nt-wright-anything/id1441656192 And more resources online: https://www.ntwrightonline.org/ ⬇️ Follow Tom on Social Media IG: @ntwrightonline FOR PRESTON: Read Preston Sprinkle's book Exiles: The Church in the Shadow of Empire ⬇️ Follow Preston on Social Media X: @PrestonSprinkle IG: preston.sprinkle For more on on this and related topics check out:
The Atlantic's Peter Wehner joins the panel to discuss Trump hawking a "patriotic" Bible, accusations of lawfare regarding Trump's trials, and Putin's war on truth. Highlights / Lowlights: Mona— What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself? (David Brooks, NYT) Damon— Tucker Carlson's hilariously wrong prediction that Sam Bankman-Fried would avoid justice because he was a megadonor. Peter— Lowlight: Jesus's Crucifixion. Highlight: Easter, of course. Linda— Bridge collapse brings stark reminder of immigrant workers' vulnerabilities (WaPo) Bill— Democrat who ran heavily on abortion rights, IVF wins Alabama special election (WaPo)
This week on The Enemies List, Rick is joined by writer and former speechwriter for the administrations of three Republican U.S. presidents, Peter Wehner. Together they engage in a deep discussion about the significant ideological and moral shifts within the Republican Party, particularly under Trump's influence. They contrast the party's past values of compassionate conservatism and dignified leadership with its current populist nationalism, marked by malice and division. Timestamps: [00:01:23] Defined by cruelty [00:04:06] What does the Republican party reflect now? [00:10:05] Immigration and the American brand [00:13:30] Surviving without optimism [00:19:59] Biden's communication style Follow Resolute Square: Instagram Twitter TikTok Find out more at Resolute Square Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
We may have averted a government shutdown for the moment, but the new speaker of the House believes dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark. Pete Wehner joins Charlie Sykes for a deep dive on Mike Johnson. Plus, the closing of the American mind on the right. show notes: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/polite-zealotry-mike-johnson/675845/ https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/06/opinion/trump-allan-bloom-republicans.html
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