Podcasts about Oh Yeah

Travis, Zach and Rickey discuss things you should know about. Tune in for this Thanksgiving Eve extravaganza! OH YEAH, we have our own wing sauce, too. :)

The Dave Dombrowski Era hits its stride as the team president of baseball ops brings in Brian Kaplan and Howie Kendrick to the front office. Elsewhere, a member of his roster is named the best player in the country while the Phillies continue to not have made the 2021 playoffs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our first (sucessful) live!!!! In this episode we started out random as all ways! We start off with Robby being marinara boarded by his wife? From there Robby blew Marcus mind with a discussion of Dune Boards?!? Virgil mozzies on into the pod and graces us with his baby voice as we go into the new Spiderman trailer! Check us out on social media!!! Twitch: twitch.tv/dogmatic_radio Twitter: @2stoned2review Instagram/Tik-Tok: @toostonedtoreview --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/toostonedtoreview/message

Our first (sucessful) live!!!! In this episode we started out random as all ways! We start off with Robby being marinara boarded by his wife? From there Robby blew Marcus mind with a discussion of Dune Boards?!? Virgil mozzies on into the pod and graces us with his baby voice as we go into the new Spiderman trailer! Check us out on social media!!! Twitter: @2stoned2review Instagram/Tik-Tok: @toostonedtoreview --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/toostonedtoreview/message

Tuesday – Is “Hogging” as bad is young women are trying to sleep with overweight guys? Mel Gibson, Eddie murphy and action movies that live in perpetuity. We review Shane Gillis Live from Austin for WYDTN. Rauce Thoughts on his fiances guest pass list. WOKE News, Trivia & Last Call.

Join the nerds as they talk nerd news, their quirky personality types, and do a segment of "Whatcha Playin"

This week we sit down with Brian McCulloch to discuss how to mentally prepare for big days on the gravel bike. Brian is a coach at Big Wheel Coaching, former BWR Champion and current Masters Category Marathon MTB National Champion. Beyond that, Brian is stoked guy we know! Episode Sponsor: AG1 by Athletic Greens Brian McCulloch Web and Instagram Join The Ridership Support the Podcast Automated Transcription (please excuse the typos): Brian McCulloch  [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello and welcome to the Gravel Ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton this week on the show. We've got Brian McCulloch. Brian's a coach, a father, a husband 2018 BWR champion and current marathon mountain bike nationals champion in the masters 35 to 39 category for the purposes of this conversation. I wanted to have Brian on the show because I've wanted to do a show about getting stoked for game day. [00:00:31] Your training's behind you, but how do you approach the actual day of a big gravel event? I couldn't think of anybody better to talk to than Brian. I got to interact with Brian out at the envy, grow DEO in Utah this year. And I've not met someone with so much enthusiasm and knowledge and passion for the sport of cycling than Brian. [00:00:52] Hopefully you'll walk away with this episode with some great tips on what kind of mentality you need to be successful in endurance, gravel race. Before we get started this week. I need to thank this week. Sponsor athletic greens, the health and wellness company that makes comprehensive daily nutrition. [00:01:11] Really, really simple. I don't know about you, but I find this time of year to be a bit challenging on my body. It's a stressor. It changes my routine and I find that kind of bringing together an effective nutritional strategy is a bit of a challenge. In fact, I've got Halloween candy laying around. We've got Thanksgiving coming up and the other holidays coming, I'm getting less sleep. [00:01:35] Uh, got more work stress for the end of the year. And I'm simply not eating the right foods. I find myself deficient in key nutritional areas. And the important thing is I've recognized this. So for the past four or five years, I've been taking athletic. Now known as AIG one by athletic greens. It's a category leading superfood product that brings comprehensive, convenient daily nutrition to everybody keeping up with the research and knowing what to do and taking a bunch of pills and capsules is hard on the stomach and hard to keep up with to help keep each of us at our best. [00:02:11] They simplify the path to better nutrition by giving you the one thing with all the best things. One tasty scoop of athletic greens contain 75 vitamins minerals, and whole food sourced ingredients, including a multivitamin multimineral probiotic, [00:02:27] green food, super blend and more in one convenient daily serving the special blend of high quality bioavailable ingredients in one scoop of ag one, work together to fill the nutritional gaps in your diet, support, energy and focus aid with gut health and digestion and support a healthy immune system effectively replacing multiple pills or product in one healthy delicious. [00:02:50] So that's a little bit about our sponsor athletic greens. As you know, as a long time listener, I've been a big fan of athletic greens for many years. I encourage you to check it out and see if it's for you. It's lifestyle friendly, whether you eat keto, paleo, vegan dairy-free gluten-free and contains less than one gram of sugar, no GMOs, nasty chemicals or anything. [00:03:12] All while tasting good. My S my personal process is simply putting athletic greens over copious amount of ice each morning, shaking it up and drinking it down. First thing I've heard other people blend it into smoothies. So there's lots of different ways to take athletic greens. If you're interested in checking it out. [00:03:30] Please visit athletic greens.com/the gravel ride. Athletic greens is going to give you a year supply of free vitamin D and five free travel packs for your first time purchase for gravel ride podcast listeners, simply visit athletic greens.com/the gravel ride to support both the podcast and your nutritional health. [00:03:54] With that important business behind us. Let's dive right in to this week's interview. Brian. Welcome to the show. [00:04:01] Brian McCulloch: Oh, thank you, Craig. I'm really excited to be here. So a man.  [00:04:05] Craig Dalton: Yeah, let's do this. I was thinking for a while that I really wanted to do a show. That got people pumped for the moment they get to the start line. We've talked a lot on other episodes about nutrition and the idea of coaching, but there's something to be said for just getting the right mindset, getting everything into your rear view mirror, and being ready to do a big event, whether you're going for the win or just trying to finish and have fun. [00:04:31] It's important to have the right mental mindset. And I couldn't think of someone better to come on and talk about that than. [00:04:38] Brian McCulloch: Oh thank you, Craig. Thank you. I'm really excited about it. It's such a, I think it's such an overlooked topic. When we talk about obviously as a cycling coach, but also as an athlete, it's so easy to just look at all of the preparation and we look at all the time, money and effort, the blood, sweat, and tears that we put in to preparation, but then we often forget or neglect that race. [00:05:00] Is everything. And it's not, it doesn't have to be a race. If you're not at the front of these gravel races, that doesn't mean it's anything different. It's your tour de France. And this is what my wife and I, we have a coaching business, big role coaching, and we always look at it like, Hey, what is your tour de France? [00:05:14] Yeah, it can be the one ARIDE at BWR, Kansas, or it can be gravel worlds. It can be anything in between. Okay. So you don't have to be riding a long race or be at the front of it for you to actually spend some time plan out your pacing. Think about your nutrition, go over the course, look at all those things and know we're going to get into so much of that. [00:05:32] But having your best race day performance is not always about what's the motor you brought to the start line. It's what about the check? What about the mindset, all of these other things. So I'm really excited to have this conversation.  [00:05:44] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Also true. And I always like to set the stage for the listener and just learn a little bit about your journey. Obviously like the notion of riding a gravel bike is something relatively new in the world of cycling, but how what's your journey as a cyclist? How did you come to be where you are to. [00:06:02] Brian McCulloch: Oh, that's a great question. I I should tell everyone that I used to race motorcycles or motocross and Supercross professionally. And so that was I didn't know it at the time, but that was going to be like going to the dirt on gravel. And even now mountain biking, a little bit more is going to be like, to me, it feels like coming home. [00:06:17] But yeah, when I was basically, when I went. 12 years old, I got a dirt bike and was like, oh my God, I want to be professional. And then I just poured myself into that. And long story short was my father was a big influencer there. And he was like, Hey man, as long as you get good grades, we'll take care of it. [00:06:33] Like you're good to go. And anyway, somewhere along the way, I ended up stepping away from that and thinking I had this boy in my life where I. I didn't have any athletics in my life. It was about a year that I got out of motorcycle racing and I thought I'm washed up. Like I was never, I never achieved my goals, really et cetera, et cetera. [00:06:51] And then someone reminded me that we used to. [00:06:54] train on road bikes and mountain bikes for For motorcycle and racing. And so I was like, oh, okay, cool. I'll check that out. And I went on a group ride with some friends and in the area that I'm from or where I live now in the Redlands area here in Southern California, there was this really robust community of cyclists. [00:07:13] And they went on this, they still do. They go on this Saturday group rides called rain cross. They've been doing it for 30 years on the same route. You know what I mean? So there's like all this heritage and I just became. Totally enthralled and met some really good people. All of them were, 35 to 40 when I was 25 and I was totally hooked. [00:07:29] So got into the. Started racing almost Right. [00:07:32] away. And then it was like, wow. It's like riding a bicycle is great because it's work in equals results out. So I just poured myself into it. Like I did when I was trying to be a professional motorcycle racer ended up getting my category one road up. Got a call from Paul Abrahams who was starting this team that would later develop into elevate Webby, Plex pro cycling. [00:07:53] And I was the first person that signed for him. So I did 11 years racing pro on the road which I'm really humbled to. That's one of the longest careers in American cycling, which is pretty cool. There's definitely some people like Mike Friedman and Brad Huff and other people who've had really long careers as well. Those are good company. If anyone knows those guys there, they're pretty legendary and I'm by no means on their S their level. But anyway, in 2018 actually in 2017 funny story, how I came to gravel was I did we were supposed to go to the tour of the Heela that year and that coincided with 20 $17 and waffle ride. [00:08:27] And I didn't make selection for that team. And at the time Paul Abraham's, my team director was like, Hey, bro, don't take it personal. We just have more we don't have a GC guy this year, so we don't need a domestic cause I was a domestique on the team and that's a really hard race it's for climbing. [00:08:45] And I'm not a very good climate. So my team manager was like, don't take it personal dude. Like we're not going to take you to Hilo because we don't have a GC guy we're just going for stage wins. So we don't really need you right now. Like we're going to take our time. And I was like, I was so bummed, Craig. [00:09:01] I was so bummed because like that's one of those events. If you're a road guy and you say, oh Yeah. I've done this many tours, ILA. Everyone's dude, you're gnarly. And so I didn't get to go. And I be honest, I had a chip on my shoulder cause I was like, oh, I'll show you, I'll show you. And I'd be willing to bet your listeners have a bit of that in them too. [00:09:17] You know what I mean? They're like, oh, somebody said you can't climb that hill. We'll Washoe you. And so I literally, that was. Like reached out to the guys from Belgian waffle ride who run it and they were like, please come. And I ended up going down there. I ended up crashing and breaking my hand. [00:09:31] But I finished the race and I ended up winning the KLM Jersey that year and that Belgian waffle ride. And I just, I like fell in love with it, man, because it was old school, dirt bike, grit, like dirt bike riding. You have to you're the dude that finishes like no one No one in my once you're out on course, it's just you, right? [00:09:49] There's no mechanic. There's no none of this stuff. And so you have to have the grit and the determination to finish. And so when I crashed and broke my hand, I was like, I'm an 80 miles. What am I going to do? Call my wife. She doesn't care. She's you got out there, you get back. And so I'm not I'm a proud man. So I'm like, I'll finish. And I finished and kept passing people. And I think I got like top 10. Anyway. But. That brought me that made me fall in love with BWR and being able to have breakfast with everybody, go do this incredibly crazy ride and then get into go after and share all the experiences afterwards. [00:10:22] So anyway, I came back in 2018 and I told the team I'm not going to heal it. I'm going to BWR. And anyway, I went to VWR in 2018 in San Diego, and I ended up winning at beating Ted king in a sprint. And that's a pretty cool story how that all came together. But then that got me. And we don't have that much gravel in dedicated gravel in California. [00:10:41] It's not like the Midwest and back east, which just has such crazy robust swath of events that are so cruel. So when we go to do it, we have to travel a bit. But it's such a big part of my program right now. And I'm so thankful for it. It's such a great group of people. So I hope that's a long story, but that's kinda how I got into gravel. [00:10:58] And I'm like, I want to be in it all the time. [00:11:00] Craig Dalton: Yeah. As you were telling that story and talking about, your accomplishment of achieving an 11 year professional cycling career, I was thinking to myself Brian, you haven't exactly hung up your cleats just yet. Have you. [00:11:11] Brian McCulloch: No, not at all. And somewhere along there your. The gravel ride podcast listeners. I'm sure you all know of Neil Shirley. Neil Shirley is absolutely legendary. Like I joked him cause a good buddy of mine, but I, we call them the, grab the prophet, right? Like he, he, so you gotta think of set the stage a little bit of history because history is important to me. [00:11:30] Basically what happened was at the time. He, and I went on a bike ride one day and he was like, Hey, I got some news. I'm going to quit racing pro. And I was like, oh my God that's super exciting, but I'm like, how are you feeling? Anyway he was like, Yeah. I'm going to work for road bike action magazine. [00:11:44] So he goes to road bike action magazine. As this event, as gravel is becoming a thing. Like at that time there were no gravel bikes. They were like rode bikes or it was just weird kind of time, right? Especially on the west coast, east coast had some more than what Midwest has more Frank and bike things going. [00:12:01] Long story short is he goes there to road bike action. And he just is like on the nose cone of this rocket and starts riding up. He goes to Belgium waffle ride. I think he's one of three times. I can't remember. But anyway, he's a dear friend of mine. He was at my wedding. And so he was like, Hey dumb I should back up. [00:12:17] He was my coach for 10 years as well. So all the time when I was racing road, he was my coach and he was like, dude, you have to come to a gravel ride. And so he had this, his own event called pedal Palooza one year and I went there on this rickety, old something or other with. Ghetto tubeless with duct tape for in strip and not even tubeless tires that I somehow got to seat and I got obliterated, but had a blast. [00:12:40] But anyway, so the point is like this whole thing is so new. And so to come to it and have all of this Just incredible history behind it and then be able to then see like people that have this great history or like foundation of it, like Neal and then have their support and like to be now here now where it looks like. [00:13:00] You could do a gravel ride every weekend. And they're just like some of the most epic adventures you can have on a bicycle is pretty incredible, man. So it was a, oh, I, the reason I brought this up was because he told me I should at some point be a coach. And I thought he was crazy. And here we are now I've worked for my wife. [00:13:15] Who's our head coach. And we're coaching. Like we have a very successful coaching business. I'm very thankful for the athletes that we get to support along the way. So it's yeah, it's our world, man. We're just, we're pretty detailed. [00:13:25] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I love hearing about that journey and excited to get into sort of some of the things we opened up with around. How do you approach what I call game day when you show up on that start line and, with gravel, as you've just been describing in your journey, like so many of these events have such a different profile and a lot of times. [00:13:44] These athletes, myself included. It may be the first time we're visiting an area and we're doing a 100 mile event. Let's talk through, if in that scenario where you're going somewhere, you haven't been before, what are the things you can do from a research perspective, set aside the specific training advice for a second, but what would some of the research and prep you can do if you're going to do an Unbound for the first time or an SBT? [00:14:09] Brian McCulloch: Oh, that's a great question, buddy. I think that research and preparation, excuse me. I think research and preparation. So key to what we do. And it's just, it's the absolute game changer because once you're on game day, once you're on the starting line, there's nothing else, but just grit, determination, and good nutrition and hydration. [00:14:29] That's going to get you through the day, right? Like you got what you got, but leading up to. Th our destiny is in our hands. Okay. And save for the specific training and looking all that. But I think YouTube is a wonderful resource. And so is Strava. And I know a lot of your listeners, a lot of our listeners, they are always like, Hey, there, they're researching and delving into this trouble. [00:14:47] So if you're going to do something like SBT, you can look at. The people that are doing well, what that course looks like, where are the Hills? Where are the aid stations? Where are you going to stop all these other things that are really important? Because here's, I'll give you an example, Craig. If you were to go to an event that said had 7,000 feet of climbing, and it was a hundred miles, that sounds like a pretty hard ride. But what if that 7,000 feet is in the first half of the bike race, right? So think about something like crusher. Like you have an hour and a half Kline. That's it like you just go uphill and you don't stop. Like you just keep going up. [00:15:24] That's a very different look, especially if you're from the Midwest and you're training for something like that. That's a very different way to get 7,000 feet. Then if you were to say, go to Unbound right at, on mound it's death by 1,019. Right or pinpricks. But what you don't realize is each of those little things has a 14% kick at the top. [00:15:43] So you're like, oh it's not that big of a deal. It's only a three-minute climb. When you go try and sprint 300 times up a 200 mile, oh, I'm only going to do the hundred and Unbound doesn't matter. You're going to go up a hundred little, three minute climbs triangle sprint for a hundred times for three minutes. [00:15:59] It's very turns out it's very difficult. So I think it's really important to recognize. What I call the critical factors are the critical elements the critical moments of an event. Okay. So what are those critical moments like? Oh, okay. I've got an hour and a half climb. There you go. Or, Hey, I have a hundred of these really challenging areas or, oh, Hey, there's this single track section say you're going to go to BWR Cedar city, right? [00:16:23] That final format. Single-track called the tollway is Uber brutal and you have to build a bike around that final four miles, much more than you have to build a bike for the first 120. You see what I'm saying? Totally different because those rocks are super sharp. They're super brutal. So you could be lulled into the idea that, Hey, wait a second. [00:16:45] My race performance is best done on a semi road bike with some facts. And then you get to that section and then you're walking four miles. You want to not have fun on the day walk four miles. That's no fun. So that's what I would say is. It really helpful is do your research, look at Strava, look at YouTube watch videos of things. [00:17:05] And that's why I did before Belgium waffle ride, I did a race series. We called it slang the sector. So if any of your athletes or listeners want to check it out, we did a sleigh the sector series on basically some of the most difficult and challenging. Pieces of Belgian waffle ride San Diego. And my hope was that people would watch it and go, Hey, that's action. [00:17:24] I got it. That's action. Okay. Wait, that's a little outside of my wheelhouse, so they know. Okay. At mile 67, this thing's a little outside, my wheelhouse, slow down, get through it and then press on after that. So I think a lot of that stuff, it can be super, super helpful. We have a lot of great resources that we just didn't have 10 years ago.  [00:17:41] Craig Dalton: Yeah. [00:17:41] that was a great series. I think at the basic level, when you sign up for an event, you start, you'd look at the course profile and start to understand, is this similar to what I ride at home? Can I simulate some of these efforts? Can I find an hour and a half climb, like crusher in the title? [00:17:56] Certainly many people can't but understanding how you can simulate it to the best of your possibilities in your home territory is critical. And then as you said, that next level of, Hey, if there is course beta out there, it's amazing to just get eyeballs on it, to say oh crap, I've never written through rocks like that. [00:18:14] I really need to at least be mentally prepared for it. If I can't physically prepare for it in my local. [00:18:21] Brian McCulloch: Oh, absolutely. And even with a trainer now you can do so much. Okay. And by the way, I'm not a massive fan of doing all your workouts on trainers. Like I, I think being outside in the real world is absolutely the thing to do. That's why we love. But I, again, we have folks that just, they have busy lives. If you listening have busy lives and you're on the train, especially going into winter. [00:18:44] And you're going to be on the trainer four or five days a week. There's guys that I coach in the Midwest right now that they're getting ready to be like, oh Yeah. [00:18:51] I'm not going to go outside for two months straight. If that's your jam, Use your trainer and simulate this stuff. You can go up the outdoors with, you can do any of these things, right? [00:19:00] You can use Ruby. You don't have to be a slave to swift. You can use Ruby, you can do a lot of these other things that can help you achieve that. Like old school was, I met a woman when I was very early in my bike riding career who literally trained for an iron man. 100% inside. She had just had a child. [00:19:18] She did all for running on a trip. She did all of her swimming at the local pool. And it was an open water swim that she did. And she did all of her riding on her trainer. She literally did not go outside, get a full distance iron man all off of it. And this was 10. It's probably 15 years ago. [00:19:32] No, it's gotta be longer than that. It's probably almost 20 years ago now. Gosh, I'm old, but. That was back then. We didn't have smart trainers. She was just staring at the wall for five-hour trainer guys. Like folks, it can be done if you are determined and you have fire in your belly and you are really committed to being prepared for this event, there's a lot of tools you have to get through it. [00:19:49] And and believe that. You are mentally stronger than you think you are physically stronger than you think you are capable of so much. And that's something I love as a coach is helping tease that out of people because you put them in the environment and they have to rise to the occasion, right? So I'm not saying don't set yourself up for success and, or show up unprepared. [00:20:10] That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is let's set goals that really challenge you and stretch you so that you can achieve. These great things, because once you're there, you've got nothing it's sink or swim. And if you're like me and I know you listeners are like me, because I'm an athlete and a coach, you're like, I didn't come this far to sink. [00:20:27] Like I got no other option than to swim and you can do it. So to some degree, we work really well in that environment too, where it's I sink or swim. I have no option. Because I'm not going to sink. I'm not going to quit, but I'm going to keep moving.  [00:20:39] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think it's so critical in these ultra endurance kind of style gravel events that you have that grit and determination that you mentioned earlier, because the truth is for anybody who hasn't done a big event or a massive long ride, something will go wrong. Period. It's highly unlikely. And if you track the first men and women or last everybody's on a journey, and it's the people who understand that. [00:21:04] Flat tires are going to happen. Mechanical is going to happen. Hell you, you can have big hiccups in your hydration and nutrition plan as well, but it's your ability to push through those adapt recover, make adjustments. That's going to be a telltale sign of success. [00:21:20] Brian McCulloch: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Something that I think is really a good. Metaphor here. So if you think of like special forces, right? There's obviously been a lot in the news over the last number of years about Navy seals and other, Rangers, Delta force, these kinds of, they train them to be extremely self-sufficient. [00:21:38] And I think that is something that's so powerful for us as athletes to think we are much more like them than we are say like a V like a Marine infantry unit or something like that. And so they are, thanks for everyone who's listening. Who served? You guys are wonderful. Guys and gals, of course. [00:21:54] But when I look at this. Who we are as athletes, we have to be generalists. It's not like you're on the NFL defensive line and you don't care about catching a past. Cause all you're trying to do is stop the refrigerator in front of you from coming through you, right? That's what you do. [00:22:09] If you're on the offensive line, it's a very specific task and requires a very specific training. For that, if you're going to go do SBT, if you're going to go to a BWR, you have to be able to do it all. You there's no time out if on the client, right? There's no time out on the downhill. You have to be able to ride that bike and the technical stuff. [00:22:29] If you get a flat tire, you have to change it. Especially if you're going to do something, self-supported say Unbound, right? There's no support. So if you don't know how to use that Dyna plug that you. Uh, problem. You have to be able to do all these things. So again, one thing that I would say is so important for your listeners and for everyone listening to just get a grip on is everyone has good moments and everyone has bad moments and here's the thing, neither of them will last. [00:22:55] So when you're a ride in the high and you're like, man, I feel really. I don't, it's not going to last you're going to go through a bad moment. But then also correspondingly, you would be like, oh, Hey, I feel really awful. And my quad is cramping or my feet are numb, whatever that will end to it might end at the finish line, by the way, it might it might be bad all the way to the finish line, but it will end up promise you. [00:23:16] And so that just should bring you some sort of just comfort and recognize that like you're in control of this. And one thing that I would say. For our listeners and everyone who's just okay. Some of how do you eat an elephant? You look at SBT or you look at, all these massive events. [00:23:32] How do you accomplish that? It's so massive range. Just say one bite at a time. That's how you eat an elephant. And so one thing I would say is let's keep it simple and recognize some of this just boils down to the first rule of endurance events, whether you're a runner, whether you're psychos, whether you're mountain biker, graveled person, whatever, it doesn't matter. [00:23:50] You don't have to move fast, but you do have to keep moving. So sometimes slowing down is better because what we're trying to do is get through the end of the race. So if you're in a bad moment, the default should not be, Hey, I just plow through and just hope it ends. Cause you could make it worse. [00:24:07] You really could make it worse, but you certainly should like, just keep moving. If you. You just have to keep moving. That's so important for our athletes is just recognizing that movement even slow is still forward. Progress. Baby steps still make it.  [00:24:22] Craig Dalton: Absolutely. So we talked about prepping and understanding the course that you're going into, obviously making sure that your gear is performing well, you're not coming on old tires or something that's going to unnecessarily cause you trouble. You've got to have your repair kit built out. [00:24:38] If you get a flat, where your Dyna plug is, you can pop it in there. Hopefully you can recover quickly. And to the last point of our conversation, just be mentally aware that these things are gonna happen. So don't stress. Like it's going to happen to 20% of the people in the event. So just move through it, keep a positive attitude and always keep moving through. [00:24:58] When you're looking, I did want to touch on planning from a nutrition and hydration perspective, just at a general level. When you look at a course, maybe like crushing the Tasha or something that has a very pronounced climbing feature, that's going to be a huge chunk of time. How are you thinking about nutrition and hydration and making sure you're staying on top of. [00:25:20] Brian McCulloch: love to look at the course profile. And this is just some of my stuff that I share with our athletes is I don't like people to stop at the bottom of the. Okay. Old school back before there were gravel events, we had all these, centuries and grand fondos before they read the grand fondos they were 200 mile rides or whatever. [00:25:39] And notorious, like it would always be that there would be at the bottom of the climb would be like, Hey, we have chocolate covered bacon and everyone would be like brilliant pulling over. And then they be trying to start the climb basically fully loaded and with a gut bomb. Okay. I think obviously when we're talking about, say crusher and Tuscher, you're going to have to stop at some point, if at all, possible, try to make your stops plan your stops so that you're stopping at the top of climbs. [00:26:06] Okay. I think that's the best thing to do stopping at the bottom. Client of climbs kills your momentum. Okay. I like to build a plan. Based on building and maintaining momentum. Okay. Because gravel riding as a whole and even bicycle riding as a whole is essentially boils down to building momentum, maintaining momentum, and then when you lose it, repeat, okay. [00:26:29] So there's features all along the way, whether they're Hills, whether they're rocks, whether it's single track that loses your momentum. And so part of that mental. Fortitude is being like, oh, okay. I got into the single track and I went really slow. Cause I don't really feel that comfortable and it drops on my bike. [00:26:46] So I just went really slow. I come out of it. Now I've got a road section I'm going to build momentum again, go through. So again, if we're going to talk about. As much as you can try and start at the top, if we're going to, or excuse me, stop at the top. Or just don't stop at the bottom. It's probably the best thing to take from our conversation. [00:27:04] And the other thing that I would say is based on the amount of climbing, you might have to re adjust or rethink what your nutrition strategy is. Why do I say that? Okay. So back in 2017, I did the tour of Utah for the first time. And. Once I got into breakaway on stage one and I was in the breakaway for about four and a half hours. [00:27:23] But, so we're going super hard for four and a half hours. And it started with a 90 minute climb, straight up, straight out of the gate. Okay. And the breakaway went about 45 minutes into it. So I still have 45 minutes climbing, at threshold you can't eat solid. Okay. So I'm not telling you that as a coach and saying, Hey, I read this data where you can't eat solid foods. [00:27:42] I'm telling you that. Cause like I've had my heart in my throat for an hour and a half, and then you're like, okay. Like the only thing I can do is have liquid options. Okay. And there's lots of great companies that are coming out with liquid option or semi-solid right. Whether that's a gel or something like that. [00:27:58] So I don't have an ax to grind and with any particular nutrition company, cause there's lots of great ones out there, but what I would say. If you're going to be on a long climb, if you're going to be on sustained climbing please consider getting your nutrition from liquid sources, because that allows you to work harder on the climb. [00:28:16] If you then have some solid food, say at the bottom, even if it's solid food, you packed and you're, Hey, Brian, I kept moving, but then you ate 250 300 calories in solid food because you brought an Uncrustable or you made a an energy bar or something. That is going to take away from your ability to ascend the mountain at a rapid pace. [00:28:35] Okay. And I'm not saying you've got to go bananas on the climb, but you don't want to do anything that pro that makes it worse. So as much as you can, if you look at the clients and their sustained climbs, you're probably going to want to opt for that period only of your bike. You're going to have to think I'm want more liquid sources of energy. [00:28:53] Okay. So then we come to oh, there's a downhill. That might be the time when you supplement with solids. So it's not as easy as the old school. Craig, when you got into it, it's Hey, every hour drink a water bottle, Hey, every hour eat 250 calories. So it's people would set timers on their garments or their walkthroughs. [00:29:09] And an hour, I just, crammed back a cliff bar. That's not how we do it anymore. Or, we're very specific with our nutrition. And not just the kind of nutrition, but it's the style of nutrition. Okay. So it's I have liquid sources for this portion of the race I have, and those could be gels, or those could be semi sellers, like a product that I really is infinite tripwire we used to be sponsored by them years ago on the road race team. [00:29:31] And I just buy retail. Like I just buy from my local shop. Cause it works good. But anyway try some stuff like that allows you to. Maintain a high output without upsetting your stomach.  [00:29:40] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I think when you look at those course profiles, not only is it climbing and descending, but oftentimes it's technical terrain where you can't pull your hand off the bar. So having an understanding of, when you're unlikely to be able to hydrate are unlikely to be able. And making sure you're not dropping behind the eight ball during those periods, I think is one of those things that you need to learn as a gravel athlete. [00:30:02] And, in some cases it may, you might have to do the unthinkable and wear a hydration pack on your back. I know aesthetically, some people don't like that, but it's very practical in certain situations. And I will tell you that, if you're in rough terrain and you've got that tube available to you, you do have the opportunity to be hydrated. [00:30:18] Versus if you're trying to grab that. [00:30:21] Brian McCulloch: Spot on buddy. Spot on. I'm going to tell you a real an anecdotal story here. I there's a gentleman that I've coached for about four years and he does Leadville every year. Okay. So same genre of what we're doing, right? Uber. Kind of event. And even though Leadville is not known as the most technical course, it's still very challenging, very bumpy. [00:30:39] So it makes it very difficult to get into your pockets this year. I, he and I went back and forth, cause again, aesthetically you're like, I don't want to pack and I am much more I don't care. I just want pre. I'll put it, I'll put a bento box on the front of my bike. I'll wear cargo shorts. [00:30:53] I don't really care. You know what I mean? I'll put the bag on the front. What matters is ease of use. Okay. Because again, I look at the bicycle and I hope your athletes or your listeners will look at that. [00:31:04] Start to look at their bicycle, like a tool that's meant to serve us. I don't adapt my body to a bicycle, the bicycle adapts to me. [00:31:11] Okay. I make all of this to help me. The pilot. I am. You listening, you are the pilot, you're the race car driver. You're the fighter plane. You know what I mean? You're the fighter pilot. Okay. That should be an extension of you. It's not that you just ride this thing, you know what I'm saying? And so when we talk about that stuff, I generally don't like to put weight on my back. [00:31:33] Okay. But in this case, we talked about it with my athlete and he was. Dude, it just makes sense. I just have to do it. I just have to move beyond it. And it made an incredible difference on what he's doing because gravel like mountain, it's very difficult to reach into your pockets again. So you've got to think essentially on the timeline of ground. Many people were already on drop bar. They were roadies that didn't want to get mountain bikes. And so now we started venturing we're roadie centric, and now we start getting more and more capable road bikes to now basically they're like drop our mountain bikes. And so you have this roadie aspect of the code. [00:32:10] That's Hey, I want nothing in my pockets. I want my bike to look super sleek, all that's cool. But the reality is when you're doing a hundred mile ride or you're doing 140 mile ride, or even a 60 mile ride, you may not be able to take your hands off of the bars. Okay. So minimizing movements is really important. So one thing we talked about with my athlete was like, Hey, how much can you drink during this eight hour shift? And it was like if I have to take my, if I have to use bottles, it's very difficult. And you start self rationing, those things. So you're immediately dehydrating already. [00:32:45] You're behind the eight ball. So once we put the hydration pack on, yes, there was a penalty for weight. You know what I mean? Was it frustrating? Yeah. Did it hold a little bit of heat on him? Yeah. [00:32:54] But he's doing Lego. Like it's not that big of a deal. But the trade-off was here. He is I want to say it's like 15. [00:33:01] 51 or 52, like he's very early fifties. Okay. And his best, he did Leadville for the first time, I think 10 years ago. Okay. So totally different athlete. If you're 40 and you're doing Leadville and you're 50 doing level and this man came from Ironman. So he was very fit when he was 40. We obliterated his time, his very best time from 10 years earlier when he's 50 with a past. [00:33:24] And so when your listeners are like, man, I'm not going to wear a pack. It's just going to slow me down. I want to share with you 10 years older, this man went 45 plus minutes faster.  [00:33:36] Craig Dalton: Amazing. [00:33:37] Brian McCulloch: minutes. And again, it was because we nailed the hydration. We nailed the nutrition, we nailed the preparation, we nailed the patient. [00:33:44] It was all of those things. And I couldn't be more proud of him and I couldn't be more proud to be a part of his journey, but he did that. I, that was the best part. Like we. Dude and he wasn't executed and it was rock solid. So when your athletes or your listeners are doing this please. [00:33:58] Like when you do the preparation and it all comes together, it's just like the recipe and like making your mom's favorite meatloaf for apple pie or whatever. Hey, Thanksgiving's around the corner. You just like pumpkin pie or Turkey. Who's got the best stuff. It's a recipe and everything has to come in together and you got to find your recipe and it's super cool. [00:34:15] When you can add someone that helps you. Add to your recipe. Whether that's a coach or a friend or a mentor, whatever. I'm biased towards coaching but there's lots of great ways to get knowledge transfer can be from YouTube, but something that helps you have that successful event and just helps you look at things differently because the critical elements of a bike ride are not always just, oh there's a climb. [00:34:37] Maybe the critical element is actually when you eat maybe the critical element. Hey, I'm going to let this whole group ride away from me for one hour, because I'm going to set a heart rate ceiling at 145, and then I'm going to, unroll the carpet, so to speak and just get faster and negatively split this, right? [00:34:54] There's so much of that.  [00:34:56] Craig Dalton: It's funny. I love that. You mentioned that sort of aesthetic road bias that maybe permeated a lot of the gravel scene in the early days. And it's so true. I think, lot of the earliest athletes were coming over and they had a suspicion. Visual of what a drop our bike would look like. [00:35:11] And now with the influence of these long events and mountain bike technology, I think it's proven that being more open to things like hydration packs or bento boxes, you don't have to be there all the time. They're not necessarily there on every ride, but making sure that bike serves you in these alter endurance events is critical. [00:35:31] Brian McCulloch: Oh, absolutely. Again, it's a tool and it's meant to be adapted to. Okay. And that's just so important. And again I think that in all things like whether it's a bike fit, whether it's shoes, whether it's anything, like people would just go, oh, I just got the gloves from the local bike shop. [00:35:47] And I'm like why did you do that? Let's get the ones that fit you. You're like, oh, they're baggy. And they, it, and you're like, no, like this should be like, we start thinking about one thing. I want to make sure I bring up. Race day is your day to have your best. Like you talked about, I think you nail it so good. [00:36:04] Craig, when you talk about game day, if we think about the culture of football or we think about the culture of hockey, or we think about the culture at any of these other things, even running like cross-country running, right? They wear their best shoes on race day. They have. Best stuff like everything is prying for race day. [00:36:23] And so I want your listeners are athletes. I want them to be like race day. I want a little pep in your step. I want a little extra recovery in you. I want oh man, I get my favorite water bottles. I know that sounds silly. But you can get water bottles that like, they don't put out the flow that you want. [00:36:39] Make it easy on yourself. All of these tools, you have access to incredible tools to help you be successful. Don't be like, Yeah. [00:36:46] I wear my old socks that have a whole. Like, where are your best thoughts? And guess what, if you wear them out, go buy another one. I don't care. Like, where are your best sham? [00:36:54] You know what I mean? This is not the day to be like, oh Yeah. [00:36:56] I got that old to Shani butter. I'm not going to, I'm going to use it. Dude, crack open the new tube of Shandy butter and go, go for it. Make sure you have all the tools that are there to support you. And that they're the best tools it is. [00:37:08] Game day, treat it like such and get after.  [00:37:12] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I've always felt doing those little things and making sure you feel great. Look great bikes. Ready to go. That it gives you like, for me, it seems like it gives me like 20% more capacity to suffer that day. If I've really put my game face. [00:37:28] Brian McCulloch: Oh, Yeah, Oh yeah. And it should be the culmination of all of your preparation. It should be the culmination of the hard work you've done. This is where I think of it. Like how much time, money, and effort people invest in going to a big event. I'll give an example. Just last week I went to a mountain bike marathon, national championships, and it was in Maryland and I've never raced in Maryland before. [00:37:53] And I'm really actually fairly new to mountain biking to be candid. I have one season of it. But. What happened was we flew out there early. We pre-rolled three or four days on the course and it made such a big difference. And then when I got into the race, I had some adversity, the guy dropped me, the leader dropped me. And it was in that moment that I was like, Hey, I've invested so much. I don't even care. I'm all in. If I blow up, who cares? And I went for it and guess what it worked out and I won. And it was great because I had invested all of this stuff. [00:38:26] I had everything going in that direction and then I. Uber committed and the right moment, when you have that critical moment, you have to dig deep and find something special. And so when you've invested in that, and I hope your athletes and your listeners, when they're listening, don't be afraid to pay that full price, to pay the full measure of what you do and be like, yeah, I've invested all this. [00:38:47] I've done all this. I've done this, I've done that. And it gets a little bit hard leaning into it, man, when you get in the pain cave, pull up a folding chair and hang. Get after it. You know what I mean? Who cares? Like you've come this far, you've made all of these sacrifices. You've dragged your family for California or New Mexico or Washington DC all the way out to Kansas. [00:39:07] It's important, Kansas. Dude, get after it. Don't just be like, okay, I'm going to sit back and absorb it. And whatever, lean in, you can do it.  [00:39:15] Craig Dalton: Et cetera. One of my old coaches used to talk about putting things in the bank and whenever I would complain about a tough workout or whatever, he would just remind me, Hey, that's in the bank. And when it comes to game day, when you suffer in which you will suffer, think about this workout, think about how deep you dug and know you're capable of going there and even more on, on race. [00:39:38] Brian McCulloch: Absolutely. I always think of it like this. You. When I look out at the pier, like if you're out on the beach and you look out, oh, there's this beautiful pier, it's the boardwalk, it's at Santa Cruz or whatever, that was a big thing. When I was growing up in Northern California, it was like, oh, let's increase beach boardwalk. [00:39:55] That was still cool. But you look at the pillars that hold that up. And they have to withstand the abuse of the. And they stand rigid and they stand firm and they're just the waves beat on him, feed on them and feed on them and guess what they have to be replaced. Like that thing has to be replaced every number of years. [00:40:12] I'm sure. I don't know what the number is, but they have to get replaced. Because the C's so powerful. The forces of nature are just incredible. If you're the seek help, what if you're the seek help? What is the. The sea kelp waves with the influx and with they out, it goes with it, and that's a very, like if your listeners are into books I, if you look at very Eastern philosophy, Chinese philosophy and you look at the towel to Chine, or you can look at the sun, SU the art of war, you can look at any of those things. And it's very much that kind of thing. [00:40:42] And I think for athletes in gravel, you have to be able to do same thing. Like suffering is going to wash over you and you can either fight it and be like, oh, when you can be rigid and death grip and all this stuff, or you can be like the seek help and you can just be like, okay. And then my pain came for a little bit, this stinks, and I don't really want to be here, but I'm going to be here for 90 minutes on this crazy climb up crusher in the Tasha, but I want to finish. [00:41:08] Got to do it, so I think w going between both, because there's a time to be rigid and be like, yes, I'm getting after it. And there's a time to be like I'm going to embrace the suck. Like it just is what it is. We just got to chop some wood here and just get out.  [00:41:20] Craig Dalton: Exactly. Exactly. This was a full of great information. One of the things I wanted to conclude with was you had made mention to me in our discussion back and forth just about celebrating properly. And I think your mentality as a coach, I just wanted you to speak to that a little bit. [00:41:40] Brian McCulloch: Celebrating us so important. I'm working on something for our athletes right now, where we're going to do a, basically a coach led performance review and a and so it's performance review is going to be like, Hey, how did the year go? What went well, what didn't go well, and one of the things, if you look at we're going to bridge into goal setting for 22, and one thing, if you look at kind of goal setting 1 0 1 and all the books on that is you have to celebrate, and we live in this world that we're always like next. And you never come back to it and go, Hey I didn't celebrate. And so one thing you need to do is think about you need to treat yourself like a valued employee. Not like you're a tyrant, right? So you treat yourself like, Hey, I did really good. [00:42:21] Craig, you have wonder you're a wonderful, successful businessman, right? And so like when you have valued employees that go above and beyond. You don't just be like, cool, here's your next project? You go, great job. That's fantastic. You know what? It's Friday go home at noon. We'll see you on Monday. [00:42:38] And we'll plan from here. That's how you treat valued employees, right? You're like, Hey, that was really great. That's how you treat your kids, right? You're like great job. I'm so proud of you. We're going to pizza tonight, right? Like good effort. And we don't do that to ourselves. We don't do that to ourselves. [00:42:55] We hold ourselves hostage sometimes and we're like, yeah, I could have done better. You know what I mean? Oh Yeah. [00:42:59] I got eight at Belgium authorized Cedar city and got the hard man award. But you know what, I wasn't in the top three, so I'm not happy. Okay. Loser. That's not a cool way to talk to yourself. [00:43:08] And that happened to me and my wife like slaps me and she's what are you doing? Try to have more fun. And I'm trying to talk talk, tell her your listeners and our athletes. I'm telling you that because I have not celebrated a lot of things. I always moved on to the next thing, because I was always something bigger and better. [00:43:23] What I'm trying to tell you is that I want you to stay in the sport a long time and you're, I want you to seek mastery and to do that, we have to do the full range of emotions, right? Like you have to have those stressful moments. You have to overcome those stressful moments and then you have to celebrate all the things you did along your journey. [00:43:38] Okay. And I'm not saying you give yourself a pat on the back. Finishing a forty-five minute trainer workout. You know what I mean? But I am saying when you sign up in October or November for Belgium waffle ride, Kansas, it's 10 months away. You've got to celebrate when you get to the end. And whether your celebration is having a beer with your buddies or giving your eating half of a of a carrot cake, it doesn't matter. That's not what. With what it is for each athlete, but I think celebrating is so important. And what I would also say to tell your athletes, and we talk about celebrate. Make this a family affair. Most of us are, have kids. Most of us have spouses. Most of us have busy lives and there's more people. [00:44:24] So don't make this about what you accomplished, make it about what we accomplished. As a coach, I'm a part of your performance team. Okay. So I want. I didn't pedal the bike for you, but I'm really excited to play the role that I get to play. And I know joy is to my wife. She's really oh my gosh, like you just won a national championship. [00:44:40] That's amazing. But so make it a part of, we, we did this together. When I tell you the, when you're setting goals, tell your friends, right? Tell your buddy Craig Hey, because of this podcast, I decided to sign up for this. And then not only did you sign this, sign up for it, you come back and you're like, I never thought I would do a sub nine Leadville. [00:45:01] Oh my God, I got a big belt buckle. Or whatever your thing is, like I never thought I would do a sub nine hour builds, waffle ride, whatever  [00:45:09] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I think [00:45:10] Brian McCulloch: Celebrate that and tell people about it because that accountability is what makes us great. And I'm telling you, you are capable of more than you think So hold yourself accountable, put it out in the world, go after it work hard. And if you fall a little short, that doesn't mean you don't celebrate, still celebrate what you did accomplish and then move on and it's. [00:45:30] Bree adjust, recalibrate reengage, set your sights higher and go for it.  [00:45:34] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think those are great words to end by Brian. Thank you for such an enthusiastic conversation. I hope for the list. Everybody's stoked and keep this conversation near ear, particularly those words about being able to do more than you think you can. Cause you, you all are capable of more than you think you are. [00:45:50] Brian, thanks so much again for the time. [00:45:53] Brian McCulloch: Oh, thank You so much, Craig. Thank you for the opportunity. And if anyone ever wants to check us out on big real coaching, please do. It's just my wife and I, and we have a lovely coach. She if there's ever anything we can do to help you, we would love to, but also please. Just get out there, get after it, have a great time. [00:46:09] And let you know, come see us at the races. We're always at the races. We love seeing you. We want to hear about your celebrations and Craig, I want to hear about some of yours. So I'm going to put it on you. I want to hear about what your goals are. And then I want to hear about the process, your preparation, how the race day stuff goes, and then we can have another one of these conversations soon. [00:46:25] Craig Dalton: You got it, Brian. Thanks.  [00:46:27] Brian McCulloch: Rock and roll brother.  [00:46:27] Craig Dalton: So that's going to do it for this week's podcast. Big thank you to Brian for joining us. I hope you got a lot out of our discussion and another big thanks to athletic greens for sponsoring this episode. If you're interested in joining our free global gravel cycling community, please visit the ridership.com. [00:46:50] And if you're interested in supporting the podcast around. Please support me@buymeacoffee.com slash the gravel ride. And finally, if you have a moment rating re ratings and reviews are hugely important in the podcast business. I appreciate all your words and I read everything that comes through in terms of the reviews. [00:47:11] And I have to say, [00:47:14] and finally, if you have a moment, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. They're very important in the podcast business. And I read everything you write. So I appreciate the effort and those kind reviews until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.

Ten, Casper, and Andy sit down with CCP Aurora and CCP Swift to chat about recent updates, the Alliance Tournament, the new Alliance Tournament ships, and how excited everyone is about the Alliance Tournament   AT Prize blog Unlikely off meta fits (mentioned by CCP Swift)

Show NotesPromptly Written: Volume 2Parks and Recollection | Team CocoThe Hardy Boys: Undercover Brothers | Wikipedia.orgMoviefone | Wikipedia.orgFranklin W. Dixon | Wikipedia.orgList of Hardy Boys Books | Wikipedia.orgYellow Pages | Wikipedia.orgMeetup.com - We Are What We DoThe Rimfire Report: The Clandestine High StandardThe Notebook | IMDb.comLana Del Ray - Once Upon A DreamPromptly Written Facebook Group@pwrittenpod on TwitterPromptly Written PodcastIan LewisIanLewisFiction on Instagram@mattsugerik on TwitterMatt SugerikWorld Gone Geek

It's the “Oh Yeah!" edition of the #Bengals Booth Podcast as the Bengals look for their third road win in as many weeks against the 1-5 New York Jets. On this episode, I'll talk to Boomer Esiason about Joe Burrow, Ja'Marr Chase and a Cincinnati team that is currently the #1 playoff seed in the AFC. My 1-on-1 player interview is with Eli Apple as he returns to the place where his NFL career began. Dave Lapham joins me to discuss the latest Bengals news and share some keys to beating New York. And in our Know the Foe segment, we discuss the struggling Jets with a guy who has covered the team for more than 30 years -- Rich Cimini from ESPN.

Join the nerds as they talk nerd news and a segment of "Whatcha Playin"

Today in the Cage: DT & Luc • Zack Evans #Riders #Stamps (8:00) • Luc Mullinder's thoughts on Saturday's win! #RiderNation (20:00) • Glen Suitor & Luc Mullinder in the season debut of 'Oh Yeah?' or 'Oh Yeah!' (48:00) • Laura Diakun Will the #ChiefsKingdom miss the playoffs? #NFL (1:35:00)

This week we discuss the Indie horror book, Babyteeth. Sadie Ritter is sixteen years old, and nine months pregnant. OH YEAH, and also her baby is the antichrist and it's going to unleash eternal suffering to all of humankind. 

Can you name a show where the host arrives after the show has already started? Well now you can. It's the Spike On The Mic show featuring P-Dub, Billie, Gasman, Steve, Kim, and… Oh yeah… Spike.Video version… Audio version…

On today's Star Trek news roundup: William Shatner reacts emotionally to his trip to space; Robert Beltran confirms his role in Star Trek: Prodigy; and Anson Mount announces a wrap on Strange New Worlds. Plus Star Trek Online launches a new Halloween event, and we talked to Ian Spelling about Star Trek: A Celebration.

On today's Star Trek news roundup: William Shatner reacts emotionally to his trip to space; Robert Beltran confirms his role in Star Trek: Prodigy; and Anson Mount announces a wrap on Strange New Worlds. Plus Star Trek Online launches a new Halloween event, and we talked to Ian Spelling about Star Trek: A Celebration.

Kyle Larson may have won the race, but the Kevin Harvick / Chase Elliott feud really heated up at the Roval! The playoff field is down to the Elite 8, and we're headed to Texas! Be safe,  @Lungboy & @TimmyG @WickedFastPdcst on Twitter, @WickedFastPodcast on Insta or Like the Wicked Fast Podcast on Facebook Please join our NASCAR Fantasy League! You know you want to Subscribe on iTunes! You can also subscribe on Google Play or Spotify. Click for more info about the Wicked Fast Podcast Check out Timmy G's Celtics Podcast - Banner Banter Podcast Find more great podcasts at bPodStudios…The Place To Be For Podcast Discovery

It's time to return to The Dreaming! This week, we're discussing the third and fourth volumes of Neil Gaiman's celebrated series. Come for the one-off stories of Dream Country, and give the devil his due when we cheer Lucifer's epic trolling of Dream in Season of the Mists.  ----more---- Episode 17 Transcript Jessika: [00:00:00] I just, I like have had five sets of teeth in my life. They just keep growing bigger and bigger each set I got,   Hello, and welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcasts where we morph from delight to delirium one issue at a time. My name is Jessica Frazier and I'm joined by my cohost, the blasphemous baker, Mike Thompson.  Mike: I am full of carbs and caffeine. How are you doing? Jessika: Oh, I am somewhat of both as well. Could use a little more sleep, but I have a day off tomorrow, so I will be doing that,  Mike: I'm jealous.  Jessika: Dude. I work nine hours a day. Don't be too jealous. It's those nine hours that get me that day off.  Mike: Oh man. I've been pulling [00:01:00] like 10 to 12 hour days for a couple of months and I'm just,  Jessika: Oh shit. Nevermind. Goodness. Well, the purpose of this podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. If you'd like to support us, be sure to download rate and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you live.  Mike: Yeah, that really helps with discoverability. We know that we are not a large podcast, but the support that we've gotten from everybody has meant a lot to us. And we're hoping that we can continue to reach more people. If you like, what you're hearing, do us a favor and invite your friends to like our pages, every little bit helps.  Jessika: Yeah, well, today we're continuing on. with the second episode of our book. As we discuss volumes three and four of the Sandman series. But before we jump into [00:02:00] that, Mike, what is one cool thing that you've read or watched lately?  Mike: Something actually that you mentioned on the last book club episode that we did was that there is a Sandman Audible book right now. As much as I don't like giving Amazon my money, if I don't have to, I've had an Audible membership for like a decade. And that means I have access to their Audible originals, which is what this audio book is. And then one of my friends, hi, Darren, also recommended that I listen to the audio book after I told them that we were doing a Sandman book. So I finally downloaded the audio book and started listening while I walked the dogs. And it's legit incredible, like all-star cast. It feels like an audio play complete with like all these incredible production values. Neil Gaiman is serving as the narrator and then they have all of these incredible actors voicing characters and it actually, you know, Neil [00:03:00] Gaiman rewrote it. And so it feels like what he wanted the Sandman, the first volume Preludes and Nocturnes to be, with the hindsight of 30 plus years. Jessika: Nice.  Mike: Yeah, it's great.  Jessika: And he's such a good orator.  Mike: he is he's done a couple of his other audio books that I've listened to over the years. He did The Graveyard Book, which was The only way I can describe it as a Victorian Gothic version of the Jungle Book. And then he also did Coraline. I think he did Coraline. I'm pretty sure he did, but every time that I've listened to him, narrate stuff, it's always been just fantastic,  But, yeah. Jessika: Great.  Mike: How about you? Jessika: Well, I grabbed another $1 image teaser comic. , this time it was Kill or Be Killed by Ed Brubaker. Sean Phillips and Elizabeth Breittwiser. It was okay.  It didn't grow. It followed the first person account of how a man was driven to be an assassin. He basically attempted to die by suicide by jumping off a roof, ended up not dying, but [00:04:00] being visited by what appears to be a demon who tells him , that he now owes him for the life. He tried to waste or something, a life for a life, kind of a such and the rubric for killing being , someone basically like bad and it's not very well defined. So he goes from this guy who can't fathom killing someone to being ready to kill. So he doesn't die. The whole reason he wanted to die was over a woman that chose his roommate over him, by the way, like his best friend. And it was this whole pining love thing. It was just a little just had, really bad incel vibes. You know what I mean?  Mike: Yeah, Jessika: I don't know. It just felt very strange. Like his whole motive was very, contrived it felt,  Mike: Yeah. Brubaker does a lot of good stuff, but he writes a lot of, kind of the modern equivalent of pulp noire.  Jessika: Mm.  Mike: Everything that you've described sounds very much like a Brewbaker story. You got to find the right thing. He writes some really good stuff. Like he's the guy who actually created the winter soldier for the Captain America Comics. Jessika: [00:05:00] Okay.  Mike: Yeah. He did a couple of other kind of like noire-ish stories for image that they were hit or miss for me, but when he's good, he's really good. And then other times it's just, it's not my vibe. Jessika: Okay. That's fair.  Mike: Yeah. Jessika: So, honestly though, again, it was one of those $1 Image teaser situations.  Mike: I love how they do that.  Jessika: I didn't feel like I really lost anything.  Mike: No, I think that's a really great strategy of theirs where it's just kind of the entry-level pilot. Jessika: Yeah, well, let's mosey on to our main topic.  Mike: Yes. Jessika: So last episode, just to recap, we covered an overview of the history and places you can read, watch and listen to the Sandman series. And if you haven't already listened to episode 15, we highly recommend you check out that episode for that. And our discussion on the first two volumes of the Sandman series, because from here, we are going to be discussing [00:06:00] volumes three and four. I don't really have many tidbits per se for us this episode. Really? We're just going to look at the plot and then talk about what we thought.  Mike: I actually have a couple of tidbits. Believe it or not, not many, but a couple. Jessika: Mike has tidbits everyone. I love it. I didn't even know. Well, awesome.  Mike: All right. So should we kick things off?  Jessika: Let's do it. Volume three is titled Dream Country and it was published in 1990 and only included issues 17 through 20. And what made up a four-story anthology. It was, of course, written by Neil Gaiman and illustrated by Kelly Jones, Malcolm Jones III, Charles Vess, and Colleen Duran. We start with the story of Calliope, the youngest Greek muse, who has been imprisoned by Erasmus Fry to be his own personal muse. Super gross. [00:07:00] She'd been captive for closest 60 years. So Erasmus gives Calliope to Richard Maddick, who is a writer who has one successful novel but now has hit a patch of writer's block. And unfortunately for Calliope, he's a greedy motherfucker who only cares about his own success. So he takes Calliope who has been left without clothes in a room alone. And of course, immediately rapes her. This one was really hard for me. You can already tell, as I'm trying to get through this description.  Mike: Yeah, it's an uncomfortable issue to read now. Even now it's, mean, it was really uncomfortable when I first read it when I was, I don't know, 18 or so. And it's just gotten increasingly gross as time goes on, especially now, post me too in the entertainment industry. Jessika: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, definite correlations there.  Mike: Oh yeah. Oddly prescient. Jessika: Yes. So Richard of course gets gains from this whole [00:08:00] situation and enjoys a few years of very good success. He writes more hit novels, some award-winning poetry, and even gets into Hollywood with writing and directing. So here we are again with the correlation situation and of course winning awards in that area. And this is all happening while Morpheus is still in prison, by the way, until he isn't any longer. And one thing we need to know about Calliope is that she and Morpheus have history. In fact, they have a child together. So Calliope calls out to him in desperation. After being told by her visiting muse sisters, that they were unable to help her and help Morpheus did. The author wanted ideas, then he was inundated with them. So many that they were causing him to have an actual breakdown seemingly with psychological effects. In the end, Richard sends someone to release her where he only finds Erasmus Fry's book in the room where she should have been.  Mike: And doesn't it [00:09:00] originally start out with Morpheus trying to free Calliope, but Richard doesn't want to, because he needs the ideas she gives him when he rapes her? Jessika: Yeah Mike: Yeah. And that's when Morpheus sits there and basically punishes him with an overflowing chalice of ideas. Jessika: Yeah. It's, definitely a fitting punishment. In my opinion  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: story, number two was super fun. I think you and I can probably agree. And this story was about a cat speaking to a crowd of cats in a graveyard. And this cat told the story of having kittens and having them taken away by the people that owned her. And of course, the guy was super level-headed about the whole thing and took the kittens to a shelter and they were adopted by loving families and, oh wait, never mind. He put them all in a bag, tied the bag to a large rock, and threw it in a body of water. I just can't with people. Like, honestly, I can't,  Mike: It's a safe assumption that people are going to be terrible throughout this series. Jessika: I mean, it's true, [00:10:00] but I would love to have them all adopted. So the cat naturally is super upset but also looking for some sort of vengeance or something. And that night she has a dream where she goes on a long and difficult dream quest to see what is ultimately Meowpheus the cat.  Mike: Meowpheus I like that.  Jessika: So basically a Meowpheus tells her that cats used to rule. They were larger and humans were basically the pets. Instead, cats choosing to hunt humans for food and sport and keeping them to feed and groom them. One day, humans banded together and with participation from only 1000 humans, they were able to dream the same dream together and basically manifest humans being the alpha in the world, instead of the cats. And this went back into time where the power of the collective dream actually rewrote history in favor of humans, making the cat subservient. Instead. [00:11:00] The cat in the graveyard was basically preaching a gospel, asking all the cats in the graveyard to dream the same dream. That she was trying to get 1000 cats to help her so that, they could all pull a Cher and turn back time to be in power once again. I enjoyed the partying quippy remark from one of the listener cats, which was effectively good luck getting multiple cats to do anything at the same time. Mike: Uh, yeah. Accurate. Jessika: And while it was really sad and cruel I like the idea that cats have an attitude for a reason.  Mike: Yeah, I thought it was cute. It was just, it was a very, I mean, we'll get into this later on, but it was, I thought it was very. Jessika: Yeah. The third step. Told us, the creation of Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream wherein Morpheus has actually requisitioned the play in specific terms and asks Billy Shakes and his troop to perform in the middle of an empty field. Well, kind of. That field is not empty for a long as [00:12:00] Titania, Oberon, Puck, and all the other characters from the fairy realm have arrived through the portal, which Morpheus opens for them. It's mentioned during the dialogue between Titania and Morpheus, that this is probably the last time the mortal realm would allow them to enter, that they were feeling the hostility from Gaia upon their entry. During the play puck steps in for the actor playing himself and kills of course, and Titania is very strangely fascinated with Billy's 11 year old son Hamnett and is like trying to entice him. And then in the end, everybody, but Puck leaves the realm. And it's mentioned at the end of the issue that Hamnet died later that same year. So like, did Titania finally get Hamlet to go with her?  Mike: You know, it's left a little bit open, but it's playing into that whole idea of the changeling child and, you know, the mortals who go over into the very realm, as children, which I really liked that I thought it was a nice ending that was very bittersweet. Jessika: Yeah. I thought so too. And the fourth and final story [00:13:00] of this volume is called Facade and it is about a woman named Rainey who we learn has been given a gift by the sun, God Ra, which makes her a metamorph. Meaning that she can change her physical appearance, physically change faces, skin, everything. But this also means that she no longer has a normal human appearance. Her skin is scaly and multicolored. Her hair has turned of violent shade of green and her face is withered and her nose is almost completely gone. We find Rainie living a very solitary life, getting a monthly disability check and only interacting with the worker assigned to her, but disability case she's depressed and has suicidal ideations. Probably the scariest part of the story is when an old friend who works for the same company that Rainey was working for, when Ra messed her up, who invites her to lunch, Rainie sucks it up, puts on a face literally and meets [00:14:00] at the restaurant. Where her entire face falls off into a plate of spaghetti. I don't, I don't know about you like that. I thought it was super terrifying. Mike: Yeah. I mean, it goes back to that very human emotion of seeing someone that you haven't seen forever. And you're trying to do as much as you can to make sure that they don't see that you've changed too much.  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: You and I are at that age now where it's like, people from high school want to get in touch and we're all older. You know, some of us are. And so you see these people and you still want to seem like the person that they knew, because you don't want to, you don't want them to comment on how you've changed. You don't want to acknowledge it. And I read it as she'd been working for like the CIA or an intelligence agency because they call it “The Company.” They don't ever refer to it as anything else. Jessika: I think it was something of that nature kind of checking out sites, et cetera.  Mike: Yeah.[00:15:00] But yeah, and then the whole thing is that because she can change her body into elements. She's, she's a sidekick from the old Moetamorpho series in the sixties. I didn't really know much about her, but I did a little digging cause I couldn't remember a lot. And so Metamorpho is a DC hero who is part of the justice league and his whole thing is that he can't. Basically change his body into any element that he wants. And so that was the whole thing where she's talking about, oh, like it's not hard for me to change the color of my hair. I I just turned it into copper and, and then she basically grows a kind of silica over her face, but she was saying that after roughly a day it gets stiff and, it falls off. And unfortunately, that's what happened with her, at her lunch with her friend. Jessika: Yeah. it was definitely a bummer. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: So of course, Rainey goes home crying where she has to break into her own house by melting the handle because she forgot her purse with her keys and breaks down crying. Death appears having been visiting one of Rainey's neighbors who fell off a stepladder and talks with Rainie, advising that she should [00:16:00] ask rah nicely to take away her gift, or at least giving us an option. She looks into the setting sun and becomes what I'm assuming is a pile of Ash. It looks like death didn't actually take her. So I'm not sure if Rainie is supposed to be just with the world. You know, just one with the world as it kind of seemed like she fear being  Mike: You know, I read it as like she was, she had her immortality taken away from her because she seemed so happy when she turned into, I don't know if it was ash or glass or something. It was kind of hard to tell what the art, and then it cracked and fell apart. And then Death answers the phone and says something along the lines of like, no, she, she can't come she's gone away or something to that effect. And, death isn't this cruel being or anything like that. I think death helped her move on. I'd like to think that she did. Jessika: Okay. Okay. Yeah. it was Fe usually. she like wanders away with the person [00:17:00] she's like low key reaping. Mike: Usually. Yeah. I don't know. I think maybe it was just a little bit, it, it was for the sake of narrative in this case,  Jessika: That's fair. That's fair.  Mike: But yeah. Urania was this, so her full name is Urania She was a side character for a few issues in Metamorpho's sixties series. And then she wound up basically giving herself the same powers that he had, and it was delivered via device called the Orb of RA. So it's really interesting because, Metamorpho is always a science character, because it's all about the elements of what he can turn himself into. But at the same time, there is in his background. is this like, you know, mystical quality to it. And so I liked that they kind of tapped into that mythology a little bit, and really they did a nice job with a character that I think most people had forgotten existed. Jessika: So, Mike, did You have a favorite [00:18:00] character part of the story? What did you dig from this?  Mike: This volume in particular, I really like, because it feels. Like a breather from the main narrative. And honestly, I think that's something that we needed because I mentioned last time, how I always am a little bit surprised at how dark the early stories are. They're very much horror stories with a little bit of fantasy kind of softening the blows a little bit, but there's a couple of moments in those first couple of volumes where I feel like I need to pack a flashlight. it's dark. but yeah, this collection is just, a much-needed change of pace just for a little bit. My least favorite story is the one with the cats. And it's not because I think it's bad. I just don't connect with it that much. Part of it is because we've got a rescue cat, we treat her better than the kids. Let's be honest. I can't fathom throwing kittens into a pond. It was just, it feels a little bit too mustache-twirly. You know, especially in this day and age where like, if people find out [00:19:00] about that you get tracked down on social media and just annihilate it. But it was cute. The whole bit where at the end, it's like, oh, it must be, it's dreaming, you know, it's chasing something and, you're like, oh, okay. Yeah. So it's, it's dreaming of hunting humans. Cool. Jessika: [laughs],  Mike: And it's funny, cause I was actually in a production of Midsummer Night's Dream when I first read this collection. So I loved everything about that specific issue. I loved how it tapped into fairy lore it showed this kind of weird, strange relationship with Titania and Oberon. And how absolutely sinister pock seemed not to mention how there's that dangling plot thread, where he basically gets loosed on earth afterwards  Jessika: mm.  Mike: I don't know. It's just, it's very different than any other portrayal I'd seen up until then. And, , it's interesting because they brought those characters specifically back in a number of different ways across the vertigo comics later on, like to Tanya actually had her origin explained in the Books of Faerie, which was in itself a series that [00:20:00] spun off of another comic that Neil Gaiman wrote called the Books of Magick, where eventually it's revealed that the main character from the Books of Magick, Tim Hunter, who was like the next great magician of the age, he's like our version of Merlin. It is very. They always leave it a little bit up in the air, but Titania''s his mother, because she was a human who was brought into the world of Fairie. And then eventually he got married to Oberon and then she had an affair with a human that was in service to Oberon.  Jessika: Okay.  Mike: She becomes a major part of the lore in her own right. Which I thought was really cool. And Puck shows up again later in the series. I, like I still squirm when I read that story of Calliope, especially where we are like sitting on the other side of me too, and the ongoing flood of stories about successful men in the arts, just being abusive, assholes to those who aren't as powerful as they are. Like when we're recording this, there's a whole flood of stories coming out of Activision [00:21:00] blizzard, if you're not in video games, they make Warcraft and a bunch of other stuff. it turns out that that was a really toxic place for women. And I spent almost a decade working in video games with various companies and yeah, it's not surprising, but it's just, these stories need to be told that at the same time, they're always super uncomfortable to read. Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: Um, yeah. And then, the facade story, I really liked, I really appreciate how gaming does this amazing job spinning out a story that's focused on loneliness and how harmful it is. and then I thought it was kind of neat that it arguably has a happy ending, though the main character dies. Jessika: Yeah. I can see that.  Mike: Same question back at you. What about you? Jessika: So, you know, I really enjoyed the cat story.  Mike: You don't say. Jessika: I did. I mean, I get it though. Like cats are, are super intense and honestly they make [00:22:00] me a little nervous. I heard some horror stories about cats, just going bananas on people and them just like getting super fucked up, like missing part of an ear and shit. Like I've heard some stories. That's just like a regular house cat. Oh, I don't think so  Mike: Well, and then you've met our cat. Jessika: Yeah. Well, yeah. You know that's but I don't, I didn't fear your cat right away. There are some cats I go into someone's house and I'm just like, oh, I got to watch my back.  Mike: We have a dog and a cat's body. Jessika: Yeah. Your cat's sweet.  Mike: No, she... she's fat and lazy and she knows who feeds her. So she's like, I'm good. I don't need to get out. I don't need to be now. Jessika: I'm strictly a dog household, so I just don't really truly get them to be honest with you. And I honestly, I'm kind of glad I have allergies as an excuse, not to have to get one. So did you have a favorite art moment in this volume? Like was there a panel or cover that really stood [00:23:00] out to you or hit you in some kinda way?  Mike: Yeah. That final sequence in the Midsummer issue, so that one was illustrated by Charles Vess and he's this really he's this artist that has this really beautiful illustration style that feels very old school storybook. Sarah loves this British artist named Arthur Rakim and Vess always kind of reminds me of his work, but the closing monologue by Puck is I gotta be at that closing monologue is kind of terrifying, especially with the way that it's illustrated. I also liked how this felt almost like, well, I mean, it was in certain ways, it was a sequel to men of good fortune, that issue that we talked about last time with Hob Gadling and the mortal that keeps on meeting up with Morpheus.  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: Yeah, you remember during, the last book club episode, how I mentioned that Sandman won the World Fantasy Award. Yeah. So it was for this issue specifically, you know, and then they got all grumpy about it and they [00:24:00] changed it so that you could no longer win a world fantasy award with a comic book. So. The only comic book to ever win a world fantasy award, Jessika: extra salty,  Mike: extra salty. Jessika: Hate to see it.  Mike: what about you? Like, I'm actually curious. What did you think about Vess's illustration style? Because we haven't seen, I don't think we've really seen much of his artwork in the series up until now. Jessika: We haven't, and that's actually this, this was my favorite art volume as well, or art issue as well. I mean, it just, it was beautiful. It used color in a really interesting way that went from playful to dark and serious. I mean, it just with the same type of illustration and the color would just change the whole.  Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Which was super cool just by adding shadows, moving the colors. Plus you got to love a good donkey head and you know, okay. I was musing and you have to go with me on this journey. They had to have used a taxidermied donkey's head. Right.  Mike: [00:25:00] No, they, I  Jessika: Please. Come on, come on, go with me on this journey.  Mike: Ugh no. Hmm.  Jessika: Ah,  Mike: Like, like that's a whole element in that American Horror Story series, like where  they make a mandatory by putting a bull's head on a dude. Like, no, no, Jessika: I am going horror with this one. Mike: Well, have fun going down that road. I'm not there with you. Jessika: Okay. Well, that's good. I suppose we are on volume four  Mike: I suppose  Jessika: Volume Four!. Alright.  Mike: What accent is that? Jessika: I don't know, I do a lot, don't I? Mike: A little bit?  Jessika: I think it's my 1920s.  Mike: Okay.  Jessika: I don't know. It's like my newscaster, I used to have an old-timey newscaster kind of an accent that I did.  And I think I'm combining, I'm combining my Virginia [00:26:00] Montgomery Prescott, the third Esquire.  Mike: It's, that so proper American that it's almost English kinda like that very Northeastern accent.  Yeah.  Jessika: Yes. Yeah.  Mike: Yeah. All right.  Jessika: All right. Volume four is titled season of the mists and came out between 1990 and 1991 and included issues 21 through 28. Story as always was written by Neil Gaiman and illustration was done by Kelly Jones, Malcolm Jones, the third Mike Drigenberg, Matt Wagner, Dick Giordano, George Pratt, and P Craig Russell. Volume four begins with our introduction to destiny. Ooh. While wandering his realm is visited by the fates, the three sisters that we have seen previously, the sisters inform him that he needs to call a [00:27:00] reunion of all his siblings of the eternal realm. So off, he goes to the family gallery where he goes up to each portrait of his sibling and they appear out of the portrait. When summoned the siblings are a mix of characters we have seen. And one that is new to this issue. Death who is told to change her outfit, even though no one else was, I thought that was kind of rude.  Mike: Yeah, Destiny's a stickler for formality. Jessika: Yeah. Well, the other one's got to wear nimble to CWA. They got to wear whatever  Mike: Hmm. Jessika: I, whatever. I don't know. It makes me angry. So don't tell women they have to change. They are not a distraction. Death has followed by Dream and then the twins, Desire and Despair, and lastly Delirium who we come to find out, used to be Delight. So during their reunion, desire calls out Dream's treatment of lovers who have spurned [00:28:00] him, leading him to ask for validation of his actions from Death. And Death instead agrees with. Prompting dream to plan, to travel to hell in order to remove queen nada from her torturous captivity, who was, that was the subject of their whole conversation.  Mike: Yeah. And we actually saw that whole story in the previous volume to  Jessika: Yes,  Mike: saw what happened to. Jessika: exactly. so destiny closes out the reunion basically stating that the actions that needed to be put into motion had been accomplished by dream deciding to go back to. hell.  Mike: Yeah. Jessika: The next issue gives us a taste of what hell looks and feels like. So back in the dream realm, Dream is saying his goodbyes and makes a big announcement to those living in his realm. He tells them about Nada, how he had been unjust and how he had to rectify his actions and that he may not return as he is not on good terms with Lucifer. So [00:29:00] he sends Cain to Hell as a messenger to let loose for know that dream will be visiting whether he approves or not basically. So that was fun.  Mike: Well, he knows that he can't kill Cain because Cain is protected by the mark of Cain from, the Cain and Abel story. He knows about that.  Jessika: oh yeah. Yeah, for sure.  Mike: That's why dream sent Cain it's because he knows that Cain can't be killed. Jessika: Exactly. Exactly. Lucifer clearly is still really salty about being embarrassed. The last time dream was there and he makes an announcement to his, his demonic minions reminding them that he is the oldest and strongest bad-ass lets them know that dream will be returning and implies very strongly. That the day that Dream returns will be very memorable. Kane delivers the response to Dream. And on the last stop of his farewell tour, Dream also visits Hippolyta whose husband [00:30:00] was the pho dream king superhero thingy from one of the other stories while he was enslaved or, you know, captive.  Mike: Yeah. she and Hector the previous Doctor Fate were being used by Brute and Glob to basically create kind of like an island for them to operate outside of the dreaming the dreams of a kid who was being abused.  Jessika: Exactly.  Mike: And then, Dream is on her shit list because he sent her ghost of a husband on to wherever he got sent onto, but she was pregnant at the time. And so there's a connection between Dream and the baby because she carried the baby to term mostly in dreams, Jessika: Well, the baby was in gestation for like that, like 30, 30, 40 years or something more than that. I mean, it was like 60 years? I don't  remember how many it was like however long or  Mike: I,  Jessika: or was it just the kid timeframe? Mike: I think it was just the kid timeframe. So I think it was only for a couple of years, but still it was in gestation injuries for a long time compared to. Jessika: Oh, I can't even imagine [00:31:00] being pregnant once, let alone for like two years straight. Holy crap. And she was like really pregnant. That's not comfortable.  So Morpheus advises Hippolyta to take good care of the kid that had been gestating in the dream realm, because he will take it someday. So. Cool. Thanks, Dream. That's awesome.  Mike: Really endearing us to you, buddy. Jessika: Yeah. serious. Oh, he also gives her the name Daniels because she had kind of been struggling with a name for him.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: So that's the kid's name now? I guess. So Dream makes his way to hell anticipating a fight with Lucifer, but what He finds is an eerily empty hell with Lucifer in the process of locking all the gates. And when asked about this loose advises that he's, he's done, he's quitting and he is no longer the ruler of hell. He's freed everyone and everything that was locked up. And he's not really sure what happened to them or where they all went, whether it was to earth or other realms or what, but he just [00:32:00] knows they're no longer in hell Mike: Yeah. He likes straight up. Does not care.  Jessika: Oh, zero fucks. None.  Mike: They're his favorite kind of problem. Not his. Jessika: Then he goes, Yeah. think I'm bluffing. Hey, here's a knife. Why don't you cut off my wings? Just see, just, just go ahead and see. And, and Dream does. And then as a parting gift, he hands the key to hell Dream stating basically Like Hey, this is your problem now. Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: that's some high-level trolling.  Mike: Dream was prepared for just about every outcome except that one. It is. Jessika: Exactly. We are then introduced to Oden who travels to the cavern where Loki is being held captive and has been enduring an eternity of torture until Ragnarok, the end times in which the Asgardian realms would be destroyed. Odin [00:33:00] frees low-key from his situation and asks him to help him as he wants to take over the Hell situation since Lucifer abdicated and Loki agrees to help, then we cut back to dream because he's not really sure what to do. So he calls on his sister death for advice. And she has like, no time. First of all, she has no time for him in that issue. She's like, what do you need? I'm super busy. She pretty much says, this is your problem. Also, he knows things are going to go down and he hides, frustrated his castle basically. And then he just starts getting visited by all these different parties, all wanting the keys to hell. So you have the Asgardians, Azazzle and a demon Envoy who're like “That's my house. I just want to live in my house again.” Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: Yeah. Anubis and Bastet who are like, yo, [00:34:00] you know, who does a good job with death with underworlds let me show you.  Mike: it's a really eclectic mix of mythological figures because you also have. The Lords of chaos and order send their envoys, Shivering Jemmy from the Lords of chaos who... I really like her. I think she's a great,  Jessika: did too.  Mike: and then the Lords of order send their representative and it's a cardboard box that basically spits out ticker tape  and  Jessika: Which  Mike: And, then you get the elves, a ferry at one point. And they have, a really unique proposition, which is that the lands of Faerie had a tie to hell where every seven years they had to send over a certain number of , their best and brightest as a sacrifice. And they wanted, basically begging dream, not to let hell reopen. Jessika: And we did. We establish that That was still a thing when all the other shit went down.  Mike: That specific deal? Jessika: yeah.  Mike: Oh yeah. It's still a deal. And actually, that was a whole thing in the books of [00:35:00] magic. They have a whole thing with ferry and hell going into conflict with each other, because I think it has been almost 20 years since I read this last. But if I remember right, it was, I think Faerie refused to pay the tithe anymore anymore. And as a result, they basically straight up, went to war with hell. and it was, oh man, it was cool. I remember liking that storyline. I don't remember it enough to really talk about it a lot though, because it's  been so long.  But it's, it's good. It's in one of the collected volumes of the Books of Magick that they did, they only collected the first 50 issues, 50 through 75 aren't collected anywhere. Jessika: Hmm.  Hmm. So we also had Suzan O No Mikto  Mike: Yes.  Jessika: Oh, and a couple of angels who were there just to be voyeurs to the situation  Mike: Yeah. Jessika: and Dream finally lets them into the castle. [00:36:00] After he stopped sulking and he advises that he'll be hosting a banquet and having accommodation set up and they could discuss the key to the realm the next day, basically. And we start seeing the consequences of hell's release through a boys boarding school where one solitary boy is staying over during the holidays while his father, as a prisoner of war in Kuwait  and all hell returns. When boys and staff who used to attend the school, start to show back up  Mike: yeah. Jessika: Along with the headmasters previously deceased mother.  Mike: Yes. It's... that issue. It's really interesting because I really didn't like it originally. And I've come to appreciate it more because it feels like a very Gothic or story kind of like the Hunting of Hill House from Netflix.  Jessika: I can see that. Yeah.  Mike: yeah.  Jessika:  It was wild.  Like all of them had reasons that they were in hell.  Mike: Yeah. That [00:37:00] issue is really interesting and it's really weird because it's drawn by Matt Wagner, who has a very interesting style. All of his own Wagner himself is famous for creating a couple of different characters on his own. Like he created a character called the Grendel, who is this assassin and wound up becoming a cult property, had a long run with Dark Horse, if I remember right. But this story in season at the mist is really creepy because the whole thing is that the dead are coming back to earth and all sorts of unexpected ways. And then there were a bunch of boys who were really awful, Who come back and they start tormenting Charles, because he's the only living soul there. And he's also, you know, he's a sweet, sensitive little kid, like who is just an easy target for people like that. And the thing is, is like, that was me when I was at that age was I was that sensitive kid who was just an easy target for bullies. And so it was really hard to read it when I was younger. And, I've got a little different perspective now, [00:38:00] but it's, still tough. Anyway, go on. Jessika: Oh, that's okay. So yeah, Charles, unfortunately, he got tortured by that trio of boys. And apparently those boys had murdered another school boy as an offering to Lucifer. So joke's on them, the offering didn't save them from the torture of damnation,  Mike: Yeah. Jessika: so Charles ends up being physically tortured and then starves to death. And his only companion was that other boy who had been killed on the premises that boy, that, those,  that trio allegedly sacrificed. Edwin. Yeah. So death rolls up to pick them up and Charles says “Yeah, no thanks. I'm gonna hang out with, uh, Edwin and deaths. Like you don't, I don't, I don't have time for this. Like literally every one is coming back. Like I literally don't have time. I will come back for you.  Mike: I loved that she was in early nineties, jogging paraphernalia, like  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: I thought it was fantastic. Jessika: was ready for it.  Mike: [00:39:00] I may be misremembering this, but I thought it was really funny how it was like, I think it was like pink and purple too. Like it was very colored. Jessika: I think it did have some color to it.  Yeah. Oh, funny. So back in the dream realm, two more guests from the theory realm, those two that we had talked about, they arrive and the banquet in. And each of the guests eats and drinks, their desire delicacies, cause , poof we're in dreamland and shenanigans ensued due to the differences of the attendees. And one by one, they basically corner Morpheus requesting a private conversation and he provides each of them with a signal stadium that he'll meet with them after the banquet and entertainment have concluded Cain and Abel show up as the entertainment we're able dies,by being cut in half and then being made into sausage in a magic act  Mike: which. That is a, that is a recurring theme with Cain and Abel in, in the Sandman comics.  Jessika: Yeah, I've noticed.  Mike: But, [00:40:00] Cain was the host of another horror series called the house of misery. And he always had this kind of macabre sort of sense of humor. I know Abel eventually showed up in the house mystery series. I don't know if Cain murdered him every time. I wouldn't be surprised. Jessika: Fair enough. So this is this tracks apparently, each of the guests go off to their respective quarters to wait to be summoned. And they each go to Morpheus, either offering something they think he would want or threatening him in order to turn over control the key to hell. And he advises each one of them that he will announce his decision in the morning. And once in the privacy of his own quarters, he ruminates on the pressure of the weight of his responsibility that was dropped on him.  Mike: Yeah. What was your favorite bargaining tactic? I've got mine. I'm curious about yours. Jessika: I didn't like the whole trading people thing. I don't know. Cause they were all so good in different ways. Like order and chaos were both really interesting to me. I think chaos just being like, [00:41:00] we will find you  Mike: Chaos was my favorite Jessika:  I was going to say like, but Shivering Jemmy was just so funny to begin with.  Mike: Well,  Jessika: was just such an interesting.  Mike: you know, they play, they play with this a lot because, Dr. Fait is one of the Lords of order, DC comic books. And so there's always been this presentation that, order is, the right way to go. And what I kind of enjoyed is that this very much embodies, no order is a dull little box in chaos is chaos. It's not what you expect. And so they send this, hobo girl with a red balloon and  Jessika: like, uh, like a clown face.  Mike: yeah, and she's like, speeding. Almost like toddler English, like it's much younger phrasing than you would expect from a kid who looks like they're 10 or 11. And then, turns into this monstrous thing, delivering ungodly threats to the Lord of dreams. And then, you know, it turns back into the little kid again, after when it was like,[00:42:00] byeeeee. Yeah, I can get behind this. Jessika: So good. She just ate ice cream for dinner too, which I loved.  Mike: Oh yeah. It was so good. I, again, I think she shows up in the books of magic later on, but I can't remember for that one. Jessika: That's amazing. So I really did like her as a character.  Mike: it was good. Jessika: So the next morning. As Morpheus, still struggles to decide to whom he will grant the key. He is visited by the voyeur angels who tell him they have a message for him from the creator who dictates that the two angels will now run hell and guess what guys, you're not allowed back to the silver city Remiel. Oh, Remiel was not happy about this situation. He did not take this well.  Mike: No, he did not it was very much implied that he was about to rebel, like Lucifer. Jessika: Yup. He's like fuck the shit. [00:43:00] Why do I have to go down there? And he had that. He was like, this is your fault. I was like, whoa, damn, you need to go calm down. Your silent homie is not the enemy. there was some salt. This issue.  So Morpheus hands over the key after Remiel takes a chill pill and Morpheus still has the task of telling the other as the outcome of his decision and lets them know the decision was really made for him that if the creator of hell wanted angels to run it, who was he to decide differently from what the creator of that thing wanted to do with it. And most of his guests took this. Okay. I liked orders response of this? This is logical.  Mike: Yeah. And then chaos is like, man, it's fine. We just didn't want order to get it. It's fine. Whatever. Jessika: Exactly.  Mike: And then  Jessika: was even better.  Mike: doesn't she give Morpheus her balloon afterwards?  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: Yeah, I thought that was great Jessika: She's like, oh, well,  I didn't really want this anyway. [00:44:00] but Azazel was especially upset about this whole situation  Mike: Embodiment of bitter party of one. Jessika: Yes. yes. Table for one. Absolutely. And he pretty much said that he was going to consume the souls of Nada as well as his companions from hell, because he had actually kidnapped her.  Mike: Yeah, and we should note that one of his companions from hell was actually, the demon who had Morpheus's helm before. it was a honied offer of him sitting there and saying, well, I will give you the woman that you're searching for, but then I'll also let you enact punishment of this guy who challenged you and to make you look bad in front of all of hell. Jessika: That makes sense. I was kind of wondering why he was like, why would he care about this one, dude? But that makes way more sense. I forgot about that, dude.  Mike: Yep.  Jessika: There's a lot. There's a lot to remember in this.  Mike: You know, I can't remember everything and I've read this series multiple times. It's a dense story. And I always feel like. I probably caught things before, but, I always [00:45:00] find things that I feel like I'm discovering for the first time with each reread. Jessika: Oh, that's so cool. I'm so glad I picked up the trade paperbacks.  Mike: Yeah. I'm glad that you, I'm glad you're spearheading this. This is a really fun series to talk about. Jessika: Thank you. So Azazel tells Morpheus, basically, I'm going to consume the souls of Nada and my other companion, unless Morpheus could jump into the abyss of space of teeth,  the abyss of his Azazel's teeth, which he's just like space with teeth. Like that's what he is.  Mike: And eyes.. Jessika: And eyes. Yeah, that's right. He does have eyes too, but he's just like a bunch of Maltz mostly. Yeah. So Morpheus does it. He does the thing and jumps in, finds them, captures his Azazel  after he tries to go back on his word of letting them go. If he'd have found his company. And then asks his Raven friend, Matthew, to tell Nada that he needs to talk with her because he has some apologizing to do,  Mike: Mm Jessika: The inhabitants of hell [00:46:00] begun to return as the new angel leaders look on and dream meets with nada and makes a pitiful attempt at half-apology and Nada slaps him and in doing so extracts an actual apology, which it shouldn't take that much. But Dream seems to realize how he's in the wrong.  Although he almost immediately negates that understanding by once again, asking her to be the queen of the dream realm.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: Bro. She was, and she was like, bro, we've done this already. I don't want to do this. I already said no to you once. And  I meant it.  Mike: I really appreciate that gaming does not make dream this infallible being, he very much shows like, no, he is. A flawed dude  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: and he doesn't always get things immediately. Jessika: Yeah, That was really interesting. [00:47:00] That piece of it, I mean, dream has to concede, but he he basically says, let's go discuss your future.  Mike: yeah,  Jessika: Which is really neat, cause he's taken her whole life away and, and then some, and he's in a, he's a negative said this blank she's for thousands of years been tortured in hell. Like how do you even make that up?  Mike: Exactly. And that was actually something that I was curious about the first time I read it, I'm like, how do you make this right? cause that's, that is so much red in the ledger. Jessika: That's What I was thinking too. It's like, oh, okay, well, what are you going to do now, dude, aspire flowers and be like, well, babe,  Mike: What about you chocolates? I only ate half of them. Jessika: right? It's Valentine's day it's. This is what we do. Right. So, so Loki who was supposed to have been taken back to his cave of acid dripping wonder  Mike: His torture cave, Jessika: his torture cave with a snake and a woman. And torture.  Mike: where he is [00:48:00] bound in the entrails of his own son and his wife catches venom dripped from a snake's fang. And then occasionally when she empties the cup, that's catching the phenom. It causes him to shake the earth and agony. And that's why we get earthquakes. Norse mythology is a thing.  Jessika: Yes. And so Loki though has switched places, the little trickster he is with Suzano No-Ol-Mikoto who was sent back to the cavern to be forever tortured, which is rough. He didn't do anything. And then he tries to cut a deal with dream, to not get them sent back.  Mike: he, he does like, he actually cuts a deal with him. Jessika: I mean, he does cut a deal He does, which. Guy, are you at least get a, go get the other homie from the blade? He doesn't, he doesn't even go other homes. Mike: yeah, he does  Jessika: like he does.  Mike: Yeah, he does. He says what I'll do is, as I will, I will basically create , an illusion of you in that tormented space.  Jessika: Okay. I must have missed that part because I  was just like guy. [00:49:00]  Mike: it's a throwaway line. It's he basically sits there and he says like, but if I do that, you owe me a favor.  Jessika: Okay. I mean, I got that part of it. I was like, you're getting out of this, but like, whoa,  Mike: I have a lot of favorite moments in this, in this volume, but that was one of my favorites where dream asks him and he's like, why did you choose Susano No O Mikoto, but Loki basically just says, yeah, I just really don't like thunder gods. And I was like,  Jessika: Which all  Mike: also I love how much of just a turd Thor is throughout the entire time that he appears he's such a gross dude.  Like there's  Jessika: gross.  Mike: the bit where he's trying to hit on bass and he's like, do you want to touch my hammer? It gets bigger when you play with it. I'm like, blech Jessika: it was so bad. And that he's just trashed. He's just like,Ugh.  Mike: Well, I think bast actually scratches up his face too, which I thought was great.  Jessika: Yup. Yup. Mike: but it's funny because I read this in the nineties, give or take my only exposure to Thor in comic [00:50:00] books before that had been Thor, the superhero, and this was such a wildly different take on him. I was like, this is amazing cause Thor was awful and mythology. Jessika: Yeah. Oh Yeah. there were definitely some, questionable stories that I have read. Yes.  Mike: Anyway, I really enjoyed that.  Jessika: yeah. So we also find out that Nuala that was one of the two ferries is being left in the dream realm, even though the ferry deal was not the one that panned out her bros, just like, see ya. I, I wasn't ever supposed to bring you back. You're staying regardless.  Mike: Yeah. You're, a gift from the court to dream.  Jessika: Which, and he's just like, okay. And he's like, oh, by the way, I don't dig glamour here. So you can just drop the glitz. You're glimmering right now. And then she's just this little petite, mousy hair, smaller elf looking, which, you know what I did not, I didn't like the whole idea that, she had to be, [00:51:00] that,  That she felt like she had to glamour to begin with. And that, that was a whole thing.  Mike: I don't know what part of mythology it is, but, but one of the European pieces of mythology is that the elves have an ability to wrap themselves in illusion. in that they're actually these kinds of weird, gross little things. So that, that was tying into kind of the European folklore. But yeah, it's a thing. I don't remember if she shows up in later issues. I think she does, but I don't remember. Jessika: I mean, that would suck to just be like, by the way you live in the dream realm now oh and we're never featuring you again. Double rough.  Mike: yeah,  Jessika: Yeah. So after dream is like, nah, you gotta be you, boo. He goes and puts not a soul into a newborn child basically. So it's assumed that she will get to live the life that dream took from her so many centuries ago.  Mike: Yeah. He basically, he, he gives her the opportunity to live life again, kind of wiping the slate clean, which is, mean, let's be honest. That's probably the best offer that [00:52:00] he can give her. Jessika: He also puts her in a male body, which like, talk about like leveling up,  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: Come on. You're already doing better. Mike: Yeah. And then he has that really nice moment where he says something along the lines of I will remember you and love you matter what body wear. And you will always be welcome in the dream realm. I have my quibbles with, with Dream, especially with this whole storyline. But I feel like that was arguably the best solution he could have come up with. Jessika: Oh I agree. Yeah, when I did see that, that was the solution. I mean, you can't provide somebody with multiple lifetimes, but you can take away the pain of knowing that that happened and provide them with a new life that you don't interfere with. I thought it was a good, a good deal. I guess. All things considered.  Mike: Yeah. Jessika: We then cut to Lucifer, wingless, chilling on a beach, looking at the sunset where he is approached by an older man who walks [00:53:00] over and make small, talk about the sunset with him and stay till, see him tomorrow. If he's still there and Lucifer admitting that the sunset is actually really beautiful, goddammit and giving some credit to the creator. And we end the volume with the two new leaders of hell going around and making quote unquote changes  Mike: yeah. Jessika: the way things are. Basically, they're still going to be torture, but it's supposed to be phrased differently as a rehabilitation, but the angels don't quite understand the meaning of the tortures of hell, which makes it even worse.  Mike: Yeah. It's so uncomfortably abusive where they're like, no, we're doing this because we love you. And one day you'll thank us for it. Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: you're just like, woo.  Jessika: It's it was a gross abuser situation.  Mike: Yeah. And then there's that bit where one of the souls is like, no, you don't understand that makes it worse. Jessika: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh Yeah. And unfortunately the angels start to embrace their [00:54:00] roles in the endless pain and suffering.  Mike: Yeah. And that's actually, that's something that is, brought back to the forefront in Lucifer, the series that Mike Carey wrote in the late nineties to early odds, which I've talked about this before, but like that series is also, I think just as good as Sandman. It's really great, we also see a lot of pantheons of different gods getting pulled into Lucifer's machinations and there's a whole thing where he makes things difficult for the angels running hell. Jessika: Oh, I'm excited to see it  Mike: It's very good. Jessika: Well what were your overall impressions of the story and who were your favorite or least favorite characters or events of this?  Mike: It's actually hard to sit there and talk about just a couple of favorite moments because I really love this collection. I loved it when I first read it. I still love it. I love the strange sadness of the overall story and the original takes on the gods. And also, I really love the twist that heaven takes over [00:55:00] the running of hell. We talked about how I really enjoyed Dream kind of, spoiling the plot twist about Loki, having switched places with Susano. And, I really soured on Dream as a character in these early issues over time. I dunno it, like, when I read this as a kid, I was like, oh, okay. He feels bad about his actions. And is going to rescue this woman that he loves from hell and now I'm like, motherfucker, you put her in hell. And she details how awful her time there was like, come on, dude, you condemned her there for millennia just because she wouldn't marry you?Like, get fucked. Jessika: And then you said, I guess I did something bad if that's how you feel.  Mike: it wasn't even, you didn't even come to this realization  on your own. You had to be told by multiple people that you fucked up. Like a mediocre white guy in his thirties, you sat there and dug your heels and went no, no. Well,  maybe Jessika: “I don't think that's right.”  Mike: maybe. All right, fine. [00:56:00] It's like, whatever, Jessika: Oh, no.  Mike: like that. I'm coming down harsher on dream than you are. Jessika: No, but that's how I felt about it too. I mean, you're just doing all the work. I'm just going to sit back and ride this ride because I'm like, I'm there with you, but I'm like passenger seat. I'm chilling. Like I don't need to be the navigator. We have maps now we have Google maps. It's fine.  Mike: I'm sitting there swinging my arms and getting all mad and getting the cardio. Jessika: Oh yeah. And I'm doing the pumping our movement of the trucks next to me. You know, I'm just along for this ride. No, I agree. He's a shit heel and a lot of these, and I'm like, I have had more than a few moments where I think to myself, how am I supposed to feel about this character? But then I think to myself, no, that's a good character. But then I think to myself, no: That's a good character. That's a good character, because that means it's complex. It's more realistic because that's what people.  Mike: Yeah. To be honest, he is that privileged male character who has never had to really stop and think about his [00:57:00] actions really not have things go his way.  And we are now at the part of tonight's program where we are finding out after having fucked around for a while. Jessika: Fucked around so hard. So Well, I really enjoyed the banquet and I really liked the different interactions between the different mythologies and how they behaved and what they ate. And it was really funny, but I also thought it was very thoughtful. In the way that it was done. And similarly with the way that each party had a different way and signal to meet with dream, it just really showed his understanding and empathy by adapting to each of his guests needs.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: Or perhaps he's just used to doing this for each individual's dreams.  Mike: Well, it's a little bit open to interpretation because in other episodes you see his appearance changed. Like there was, you know, he was Meowpheus. Jessika: Yep.  Mike: So my take on him is that his appearance. Doesn't change. It's just, we [00:58:00] perceive them in different ways. And because we are, you know, people reading the story, we are seeing him in his siblings manifest as people.  Jessika: That's very astute, sir.  Mike: But yeah, I mean, like you looked at like the different art styles that came into play when he was meeting with the different gods. And I mean, I, I still think about how doesn' het have like a tea ceremony with Suzano when they're, when they're talking. And then I feel like it's much darker and moodier when he meets with Odin. And then again, the art style changes again when he meets with Bast.  Jessika: Yeah. Well, speaking of art, did you, did you have a favorite art moment in this volume?  Mike: Yeah. okay. So you remember how last time we talked about how I have this, one defining moment where in Men of Good Fortune hob has these three panels where his face changes?  Yeah. There's a couple of different images throughout the series that I always just kind of have pop up in my head when I think about it. And one of them is from this volume and it's the bit where he's inside a Zazzle and [00:59:00] he's like prying open the mouse and the empty space and he's floating around it feels kind of more traditionally action comic booky, and the way that it's drawn, that's not a bad thing. It's just, for some reason it feels that way. And I, I think it's really good. and I also really liked how at the end of it, he reveals that he is trapped. Azazel in a jar. It's very in keeping with how Gaiman would resolve conflict in ways that could be a giant battle, but instead they're very clever. , it was like when they had the battle between him and Dr.Destiny, and then afterwards you get the field of white and then it turns out he's just sitting in the Palm of dream's hand. Jessika: Yes. Yeah.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: So good.  Mike: I'm curious, you're approaching this with fresh eyes because this is the first time you've read through this. So I'm wondering, do you have the same moments or are they different? Jessika: I actually thought Morpheus had a lot of really good billowing robe moments.  Mike: Yes. Jessika: Like, I mean, they didn't have, I think they may have had like one semi-full page of like a billowy robes situation. But there were quite a few shots of him, like floating into [01:00:00] hell and he was just making an entrance  Mike: yeah. I was just thinking that Jessika: here for it. Yeah.  Mike: he's got his helm  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: the bit where  Jessika: dressed up. This is the met gala. He is here.  Mike: Yes. And then what I really liked about that was there's that moment where Lucifer is like, are you afraid of me? And more visas? Like, yes. And I'm like, all right. Not, your difficult comic book. All right. Cool. Jessika: Just being real between you and I. Absolutely.  Mike: That was great. Jessika: Yeah. So I really like, again, to your point about what you really enjoyed was the kind of feeling of movement of probably him floating through space and having that action feeling. That's what I really liked about the billowy ropes. Was it just, I could almost see them moving,  and I could feel the movement of him floating down, which was so neat. Yeah. Well, let's move along to our brain wrinkles. [01:01:00]  Mike: All right. Jessika: So this is the one thing comics or comic-related. That has just been sticking in our noggin since the last time we spoke. So, what is it for you?  Mike: Well, Sarah and I had our anniversary this week, and she got me this really cool book called American Comic Book Chronicles, the 1990s by Jason Sachs and Keith Dallas. Do you remember those American century books from time life? They were those prestige format  photo history books, and they would document major moments in America and world history from across the 20th. Jessika: I do. Yup.  Mike: I feel like every school library had a complete volume.  Jessika: Exactly.  Mike: So this is like that except for Comics. And so it's really cool. And nobody should be surprised at this point to hear that I particularly love comics from the eighties and nineties. And as I'm reading through this book, it's reminding me about how absolutely insane the early nineties were when it came to the comic book industry and [01:02:00] also just comic collecting in general. So I think we're going to have to do an episode where we talk about something related to that topic sooner or later, probably sooner. it has been rattling around my head for the past couple of days where I just reread I've read the stuff that some of it, I knew some of it I didn't and all of it's insane. Jessika: well, let's definitely talk sooner rather than later, because let's go back to childhood.  Mike: All right. You talked me into it. We're going to do a nineties episode at some point. It's fine. FINE! Jessika: Twisted his arm. There's no violence on this podcast. I'm a pacifist. God dammit.  Mike: Uh, but yeah, that's me. What about you? Jessika: Well, Mike, you told me about the podcast Bitches on Comics, which, okay. I'm not going to lie to you. I've binged the first 45 episodes since you told me about it less than a week ago, you haven't, it hasn't been a week.  Mike: I can't remember. I know it's been about a week. [01:03:00] I really like that show. Jessika: It's been about a week. Okay. It's so good. And they have their, I mean, they're very queer, which are, you know, a hundred percent I'm here for, and I got to tell you, they,  Mike: Like more queer fans of comic books. Oh, no. Jessika: Oh, no. Well, and they have this thing in there where they're. There aren't a lot of queer podcasts about comic books and I'm like, wait, we're here now, here we are. Pick us.  Mike: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, oh, can we come talk to, you want to have us on, or do you want to come on our show? Like, whatever you want to talk about, it's fine.  Jessika: I, will awkwardly approach them with my bag lunch and ask if I can sit with them.  Mike: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. They're great. their Mojo episode, I thought was really interesting and I wound up tweeting with them for a little while because they pointed out that there really aren't many characters like mojo. And I think I made a good point with him. I mentioned how Superman's bill and Mr. Mxyzptlk might be another equivalent character[01:04:00] where he's all about throwing shit up in the air and, disrupting everything but no, they, they were great. Jessika: So good. Well, they, in episode three, they introduced me to the novel, the refrigerator monologues, which delves into the, the idea of women in comics being fridged or killed just for entertainment sake, or to drive a plot narrative, or to make the, the main hero sad, or, basically as a plot tool and the refrigerator monologues delves into it as first-person accounts of female superheroes and how they had been used. And I went and listened to it because you can find it. I kept it on hooplah actually. So I listened to it for free and it was an audiobook.  It was very, very good. And he talked about them not having autonomy or storylines of their own. it got me thinking about the way that we write characters and who we are allowed to succeed in [01:05:00] any given situation. I don't know, I just, I highly recommend this book and I highly recommend listening to Bitches on Comics because they have got me just like thinking about shit.  Mike: Yeah, you and I should talk about a Hawk and Dove from DC in the 1980s and how they just did the most egregious fringing of Dove in a 1991 crossover in a way that was really bad. it's one of those things where I still talk about it. I've been talking about it for 20 years because it's so wild. Jessika: Man. Well.I guess we'll have a really uplifting conversation about that later. I'm sure I'm going to have no zero opinions about that.  Mike: No. Jessika: I tell you, I commit now. No opinions. I can't commit to that. Everyone knows I'm

In this week's roundup of articles from the world of athlete activism and sports philanthropy, Danielle highlights the athletes advocating for abortion rights, NWSL players speaking out after years of ignored sexual harassment, Front Office Sports on the importance of activism to NIL deals, and how Players for the Planet is making an environmental impact with major leaguers. Follow us on twitter @bigleaguephil and on instagram @bigleaguephilanthropist, and follow our parent company @tacklewhatsnext on any platform! Featured Articles: Utah Jazz All-Star Donovan Mitchell is Delivering $1M Assist to Teachers How Travis Kelce has used his record-setting play at tight end to raise money for underprivileged youth First Arab-American Female NASCAR Racer Paves Way For Next Generation Of Women Drivers, Lands Major Sponsor Syracuse, MEAC agree to 10-year partnership on and off field Assists to Activism: Trae Young's Leadership Bigger Than Basketball Adidas Sustainable NHL Jerseys For 2021-22 Season Introducing Vox's new HBO show, Level Playing Field Anatomy of an NFL Good Deed-Doer: Kelvin Beachum Works to End Hunger, Clean the Ocean, Educate Kids, and, Oh Yeah, Win a Super Bowl Megan Rapinoe, other women athletes back abortion rights at US Supreme Court TODAY Show Twitter: Watch @SavannahGuthrie's full interview with soccer stars Mana Shim, Sinead Farrelly and Alex Morgan on the sexual abuse allegations rocking the National Women's Soccer League FOS College - Importance of Activism in NIL The Environment Affects Baseball. These Players Want to Help. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/bigleaguephil/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/bigleaguephil/support

DeanBodi Show Podcast: Today on the Full Show Podcast : We get into the Stinky Chicken Salad I made with Truffle Mayo, The Neighbors Poodle who threw up all over the neighborhood, My Zippity Doo Dah Song On How much I love Bodi, Fortune Cookie Fun Day, and a whole lot more. Get  your daily dose and make it a great day!!  Oh Yeah!!

Join the nerds as they talk nerd news, shoot the breeze, and do a segment of, "Whatcha Playin?"

Hour 1 Our society has decided no discipline in the schools is the right course of action. Audio from WGIG-AM and FM in Brunswick, GA

Maureen shares a gorgeous and delectable vegan recipe for Power Vegan Banana Split.

Sat Down with some of the most awesome young women I know as we discuss whatever I want cause its my show. Miah and DDP make their first appearence on the podcast and we have a nice chat. Some of the audio is a bit choppy because I had to get creative to get everyones audio with only 2 microphones. Oh Yeah anyone want to donate a Microphone to the best podcast on earth? JK "unless you gon' do it". Social Media Black out / The Vulnerability Hang-Overs / Still Not Completely Ready / Attachment / Comfort Hats / Growing Up Miah / Calculated Risks / Trying to End the Episode Go Rate Us 5 stars and Leave a Review ! ! !! ! Get On The SHOW ! ! ! "You KNOW how to get involved" HOTLINE : 917-791-0241 Email : JoaquinTalking@gmail.com Twitter : @JoaqIsExtra IG : joaqisextra --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Welcome to From Complex to Queens, the Amazin' Avenue podcast focusing on the Mets' minor league system. This week, the team discusses Thanksgiving sides in Promote, Extend, Trade, as George Washington called for a national day of prayer and thanksgiving on this date back in 1789. Following that, the team recaps the past week in Mets minor league baseball. After, they discuss the players who won the Mets Player Development Position Player/Pitcher of the Year Awards and Mets Dominican Academy Position Player/Pitcher of the Year Awards. Next, on the heels of a yet another emotional expose, this time by Joon Lee of ESPN, the team talks about the conditions that minor league players deal with year in and year out. Next, the team goes big for the last Oh Yeah, That Guy! of the year and reminiscences about the teenage hitting machine himself, Fernando Martinez. Wrapping things up, the Wilponery of the Week. As always, you can listen or subscribe to the podcast through Apple Podcasts, where we encourage you to leave a review if you enjoy the show. It really helps! And you can find us on the Stitcher app, Spotify, or listen wherever you get podcasts. Got questions? Comments? Concerns? You can email the show at fromcomplextoqueens at gmail dot com, and follow us on Twitter: Steve (@stevesypa), Lukas (@lvlahos343), (@KenLavin91), and Thomas (@sadmetsszn). And don't forget to follow Amazin' Avenue on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Until next week, #lovethemets #lovethemets! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Get to it. Playlist --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/yourmusicshow/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/yourmusicshow/support

Cemetery Gates! Oh Yeah! Hump Day Quickie. Diafullah Dobashi's "DAILY SPIT" 252. Lyrical Spit™ & Daily Spit hosted by Professional Wrestler Diafullah the Butcher Dobashi. "Daily" inspiring quotes, current topics, interviews, music & much more. Listen on Anchor, Spotify, Apple Podcast, iHeart Radio, Amazon and on most of your favorite podcast platforms. *For show links LyricalSpit.com *Email: LyricalSpit@gmail.com *Shop at ButcherSpit.com *Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame and Museum: PWHF.org *Lyrical Spit™ 24 hour Hotline *Report Human Sex Trafficking1-888-373-7888 *National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-8255 (Originally aired 10/01/2021) --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/diafullah-dobashi/support

Oh Yeah! Hump Day Quickie. Diafullah Dobashi's "DAILY SPIT" 250. Lyrical Spit™ & Daily Spit hosted by Professional Wrestler Diafullah the Butcher Dobashi. "Daily" inspiring quotes, current topics, interviews, music & much more. Listen on Anchor, Spotify, Apple Podcast, iHeart Radio, Amazon and on most of your favorite podcast platforms. *For show links LyricalSpit.com *Email: LyricalSpit@gmail.com *Shop at ButcherSpit.com *Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame and Museum: PWHF.org *Lyrical Spit™ 24 hour Hotline *Report Human Sex Trafficking1-888-373-7888 *National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-8255 (Originally aired 09/29/2021) --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/diafullah-dobashi/support

What up #CrewMemebrs!! Unfortunately for a 3rd straight week Anthony was unable to make it, but like we always say, content doesn't wait. With that said Andy and Wes bring to you their breakdown of the recent Nintendo Direct from this past week. In addition to that we have some news and an update into our run through The Ascent! Please listen, enjoy, and let us know what you think. As always, stay safe and #GameOnCGC #BossRushNetwork #BeBetter

Warning: our latest episode may give some listeners a funny feeling, a fever, and even the chills. But don't worry – it's not Covid, it's The Crystals! More specifically, “Oh Yeah, Maybe Baby,” (1:49) the song you'll hear if you capsize their 1961 single, “There's No Other Like My Baby” (discussed in Episode 33).  A slow song that happens fast! Patsy Wright's charming, quavering vocals capture the chords of young love perfectly. Spectorian elements also abound: pulsating percussion … palpable piano … tinging triangle … and then the strings come in!! We're susceptible to its many charms. We're also all about value – so we add a live Laura Nyro version of the song from 1993 (41:29). She strips all the Spector away from the song and presents a powerful “grown-up” interpretation of the tune. It's beautiful & profound and it was a pleasure to discuss it.

From start to finish, this is adult content with pictures. The sexiest episode you have ever laid eyes on. Found among the papers of the late Diedrich Knickerbocker.www.funnypod.caEmailBuy Me A Coffee

Oh Yeah? Look At MY Ear NecklaceSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Oh Man have we got a show for you! On this episode we .....talk ...............about ................something....... Yeah! Something...... we think.... you..... will..... li..............Sorry, got distracted there for a sec. What were we talking about? Oh Yeah! DISTRACTIONS.Happens to the best of us at the worst of times. We also talk about our mutually punishing sarcasms, new warm buttery mic, a really cool rap guy named Kieran the Light, emo support cats, and doing the Simba in the middle of worship. Let US help YOU be a little distracted for a moment. Thanks for joining in on the conversation. We hope that you enjoy this episode and that you might find some level of brains within the banter.                                                                                                                                        .....to be continuedBlessings#youllsee #rappernotrapguy #kieranthelight #emosupportcat #punishingsarcam #dothesimba 

This week Destinista discussed the importance of operating as your highest self! She shared some stories and dropped several gems. The closer you are to your highest self, the closer you are to true happiness. Tune in and get some tips on maneuvering through the journey to elevating and remaining the best version of you in each season of your life. OH YEAH... Destinista announced that she'll be dropping a meditation mixtape this Fall... find out all the details in this episode! No affirmations this week... again. Follow us on IG: @DestinistasDepictionsPod and DON'T FORGET to like, subscribe, and share! xoxo Destinista --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Welcome to From Complex to Queens, the Amazin' Avenue podcast focusing on the Mets' minor league system. Remember the Dreamcast? Remember how awesome it was at first but what a massive bust it was ultimately? The team takes a look at some Mets draft busts in Promote, Extend, Trade. After, Steve, Lukas, and Thomas discuss how COVID-19 has impacted Binghamton over the last week or two and all of the roster moves that were made in response. With a few weeks left for Syracuse and one week left in the minor league season for Binghamton, Brooklyn, and St. Lucie, the team takes a look at each affiliate and previews their upcoming series. After, the team revisits the career of Jason Phillips in “Oh Yeah, That Guy!” Finally, the Wilponery of the Week. As always, you can listen or subscribe to the podcast through Apple Podcasts, where we encourage you to leave a review if you enjoy the show. It really helps! And you can find us on the Stitcher app, Spotify, or listen wherever you get podcasts. Got questions? Comments? Concerns? You can email the show at fromcomplextoqueens at gmail dot com, and follow us on Twitter: Steve (@stevesypa), Lukas (@lvlahos343), (@KenLavin91), and Thomas (@sadmetsszn). And don't forget to follow Amazin' Avenue on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Until next week, #lovethemets #lovethemets! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Kundalini activations, alien encounters, and non-ordinary states of consciousness? Don't mind if I do! This week on the pod, I'm with psychic channel and energy healer, Bre Jenkins.    On this ep, we discuss energy healing, Kundalini Awakening, psychedelics, and OH YEAH -- in-depth encounters with extraterrestrial beings.  If you're enjoying this show, please like, subscribe, and share it out with friends and family!    Guest Social & Resources: Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/goinginwrd Website: http://www.goinginwrd.com   Trip On This Socials & Links: http://www.instagram.com/triponthis_pod http://www.facebook.com/triponthispod http://www.twitter.com/triponthis_pod http://www.tiktok.com/@triponthis_pod http://www.triponthispodcast.com Kat Walsh (Host) - http://www.instagram.com/lifewithkatwalsh Enjoying Trip On This? Help support it! Paypal Donations Link: https://www.paypal.com/donate?business=WNCDQYZ7F8KV4&item_name=Support+Trip+On+This+Podcast¤cy_code=USD Thank you all for the continued support!  

Oh yeah! Oh Yeah! This week, the boys are going Hollywood with the legendary actor and executive producer Jerry Ferrara. Jerry is zooming in to talk about that scene with Kanye West, his favorite Entourage celebrity cameos, fans, hitting Vegas with Mark Wahlberg, Turtle's fits, smoking real and fake weed, reboots, his new movie Dating and New York, what an executive producer actually does, trying to understand dating in 2021, 50 Cent's Instagram, shitting your pants on a first date and much more on this episode of The Only Podcast That Matters™. For more Throwing Fits, check us out on Patreon: www.patreon.com/throwingfits. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

A great recap of a great weekend.  Oh Yeah!

This week, we discuss a little bit of everything, including Netflix's Clickbait, our condolences to Lucifer fans, our congrats to New Amsterdam fans, why we feel so protective of Arrow and Olicity and OH YEAH, have you started Yellowstone yet?? WHY NOT.

It was a first week for the US Open history books, full of entertaining matches and high-profile breakthroughs. Youngsters Fernandez, Raducanu, and Alcaraz notch huge wins, qualifier van de Zandschulp reaches the quarterfinals, and the undeniable stars Tiafoe & Auger-Aliassime face off in a blockbuster fourth round. BathroomGate threatened to overshadow the entire week, as fans and mainstream reporters became gamesmanship detectives and amateur clock-watchers. Oh yeah, and Djokovic is still on the hunt for the Grand Slam.    0:35 Week one -- well, day one even -- exceeded all expectations 9:20 #HatchingandSnatching update: Fernandez, Alcaraz, Raducanu 17:40 Women's fourth rounds - plus a tangent on the Krejcikova-Muguruza controversy 26:40 Men's fourth rounds: the Tiafoe-Auger-Aliassime match was a blast 32:35 Zverev finally has to answer to the Sharypova abuse allegations, he deflects to BathroomGate, and the broadcasters comply 39:30 Accusations of scammery follow Tsitsipas all week, and to be honest they have merit; or, “you can be mad about two things at the same time” 54:05 US Open Pride Day sees various players wear rainbow gear and otherwise show support 58:05 Sloane Stephens was one of the best stories of the first week

I had the opportunity of having my amazing brother @milohengland for this episode and I could not be more proud of what we brought! Being a father all while juggling a job and an acting career… Miloh is the epitome of #HardWork!!! He shared his difficulties so far through his journey and even some of the ones who #Motivate him day in and day out. Don't forget to check out his episode this #SaturdayNight @ 7pm on all platforms @r.a.z.radio Thanks for coming Brother… you're always welcome on the platform

Welcome to From Complex to Queens, the Amazin' Avenue podcast focusing on the Mets' minor league system. With a few weeks left in the minor league season, the team takes a look at each affiliate and plots a course for them for the rest of 2021. After, the team revisits the career of Max Wotell in “Oh Yeah, That Guy!” Finally, the Wilponery of the Week. As always, you can listen or subscribe to the podcast through Apple Podcasts, where we encourage you to leave a review if you enjoy the show. It really helps! And you can find us on the Stitcher app, Spotify, or listen wherever you get podcasts. Got questions? Comments? Concerns? You can email the show at fromcomplextoqueens at gmail dot com, and follow us on Twitter: Steve (@stevesypa), Lukas (@lvlahos343), (@KenLavin91), and Thomas (@sadmetsszn). Until next week, #lovethemets #lovethemets! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The new Mortal Kombat character  Los Lesser is introduced towards the end.  Serious Carlos sat through the whole episode in mask... why... seriously no reason at all!  And no we are not Anti Vax, WE ARE SUPER PRO VAX! But this nerd had a new black mask and... anyway he annoyed us all.We have some really fun stuff coming as we approach our one year mark. (well 52 episode).  We have a Big 2 part DnD Episode the likes of which has never been played so badly or with such blatant disregard to the DM or rules of DnD ever! And hope something special for the big 52... what is that... it's a secret, even from us because we haven't thought of it yet!Also if you have thoughts about how to grow the podcast ways we can spread the word for little or no money, but we are willing to spend some, please reach out!Shout out to anyone who has some audio know-how, feel free to reach out and help me help you so I can make this more listenable.Discord: Hit us up on Insta, email, or Tik Tok for an invite to Discordlinks to all or most of the topics we cover are available on our Discord.Tik Tok: LunchtimeLaunchcodeemail: lunchtimelaunchcode@gmail.comInsta: @Lunchtimelaunchcodetwitch: Lorde_of_Bones (Carlos) or MrMoinkmer (Gator)Our preferred Hashtags #LunchtimeLaunchcode and #LTLC

Join the nerds as they talk nerd news and shoot the breeze

Oh Yeah! Tony and Chris are back in action in episode 238 of The Secret Cabal! Today we start off by hearing a little about Tony's journey across the country and then dive into the games we've been playing over the past 2 weeks including The Shores of Tripoli, Vanuatu, Dark Domains, Meadow, Karuba, Steve's mobile escape rooms experience, and Coyote. Then Don and Jamie dive into an in-depth review of Descent Legends of the Dark from Fantasy Flight Games. Tony T takes back the reigns of the news segment and gives us a tour of all the stuff going on around the industry. Then finally the gang discusses whether size matters in board gaming - box size, card size, table presence, etc. Descent Legends of the Dark Overview 01:04:57, Descent Legends of the Dark Review 01:09:34, News with Tony T S 01:47:47, Does Size Matter 02:38:35

Everything from Internet service providers, to cars, to smart phones, today I go on a legendary rant about things that irritate the hell out of me on a daily basis. Feel free to send me your rants to: tys.trust@gmail.com Check out my patreon page: patreon.com/tystrust --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/tystrust/message

Welcome to From Complex to Queens, the Amazin' Avenue podcast focusing on the Mets' minor league system. CM PUNK! CM PUNK! CM PUNK! CM PUNK! The team talks about what big Mets returns they would want to be a part of in Promote, Extend, Trade. After, the discuss the mid-season prospect lists released by the major baseball prospect publications and the Mets players who made them. Next, the team discusses how the Mets affiliates did this past week. Following that, on the heels of analyzing the prospects who made the national top 50/100 prospect lists, the team takes a look at some of players who may make the Amazin' Avenue 2022 Top Prospects list After, the team revisits the career of Dilson Herrera in Oh Yeah, That Guy! Finally, the Wilponery of the Week. As always, you can listen or subscribe to the podcast through Apple Podcasts, where we encourage you to leave a review if you enjoy the show. It really helps! And you can find us on the Stitcher app, Spotify, or listen wherever you get podcasts. Got questions? Comments? Concerns? You can email the show at fromcomplextoqueens at gmail dot com, and follow us on Twitter: Steve (@stevesypa), Lukas (@lvlahos343), (@KenLavin91), and Thomas (@sadmetsszn). Until next week, #lovethemets #lovethemets! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Forced to confront two of the Sailor Titan clones, the Senshi take…a variety of approaches. Also we goofed off a lot so there’s half an hour of bonus content (the word bonus is used very loosely here).

Aug 20 Seg 6 Oh Yeah

Matt Ragland is a productivity expert and full-time content creator. He has worked for companies such as AppSumo.com, ConvertKit, and Podia. Matt graduated from the University of Florida with a bachelor's degree in recreation & tourism management.Matt was one of the earliest members of the team at ConvertKit, where he was employee number five. Since leaving ConvertKit to start his own company, he now hosts a podcast, publishes a newsletter, has created several courses, and hosts his own YouTube channel.Matt prides himself on being a skilled manager and enjoys helping his clients and audience grow and develop their agencies. He is also the proud father of two boys and is a fitness enthusiast. Matt and his family live in Nashville, Tennessee.In this episode, you'll learn: Matt's biggest revenue drivers as a content creator How to know when it's time to take your side hustle full-time How to optimize your YouTube channel and content Links & Resources Podia Ryan Delk Bryan Harris James Clear Sean McCabe Sean McCabe Levi Allen Casey Neistat Tim Ferriss Jeff Goins Ali Abdaal Marques Brownlee Roberto Blake heycreator.com Matt Ragland's Links Follow Matt on Twitter Watch Matt on YouTube Matt's website Matt's newsletter Episode TranscriptMatt: [00:00:00]If you're not sure if you want to do something, try it 10 times, and really give it a good try. Write 10 newsletters. Make 10 videos on YouTube. Record 10 podcasts. I have found that going from 10 to a hundred is definitely a slog, and there are lots of mini milestones, but once you do something a hundred times, you're going to build momentum on it.And you're also going to build your own country.Nathan: [00:00:30]In this episode I talk to my long-time friend, Matt Ragland. So Matt joined ConvertKit really in the early days. He was employee number five, and he was here for the crazy ride. Then he started a YouTube channel. He led the customer experience team at another startup called Podia. He's now as a full-time independent creator earning a living on his own.We have a really fun conversation reminiscing about the early days talking about crazy rocket ship growth, and how we kept up. We get into earning a living as a creator. How he grew his YouTube channel to 60,000 subscribers. How to choose a niche, and when you should double down on that, and what's getting traction on YouTube.The last thing that we talk about is when, as a creator, you should quit your full-time job, and some of the nuances of that, so you can go full-time on your creative endeavor. So it's a longer episode today because Matt and I just can't help but tell stories.With that, let me get out of the way and dive in.Matt, thanks for joining me.Matt: [00:01:31]Oh, it's such a pleasure. I'm thrilled to be here.Nathan: [00:01:34]I want to go back to, what year would it even be?Matt: [00:01:40]2015.Nathan: [00:01:41]2015? Okay.Matt: [00:01:44]Right around this time. Maybe a couple months later, but it was like late summer.Nathan: [00:01:49]So, it's July, like yeah. And then July right now. Yeah, it would have been when we started talking, I'm thinking, what were you doing online around that time? Cause I started to come across you on Twitter.I think Brian Delk was a mutual friend.Is that right?Matt: [00:02:06]Yeah. Ryan Delk was a mutual friend. Brian Harris was a mutual friend. The way that we got actually directly connected is that I was on Brian's email list. And I saw that you were doing a webinar with him to promote ConvertKit. And I had just signed up for ConvertKit as a customer, always like a little notch in the cap that I, I feel like I have of having like the three-digit user ID.Nathan: [00:02:32]Do you remember what your user ID is?Matt: [00:02:33]I used to know.Nathan: [00:02:36]In the three digits is pretty impressive.Matt: [00:02:38]Yeah. A three digit. Yeah, definitely.Nathan: [00:02:41]Now they're well into the six digits.Matt: [00:02:43]Yeah, it's wild. And so, I was familiar with ConvertKit. Certainly at that time it was like, okay, let me watch Nathan talk about it. What are the things that he thinks are important with it? Like some email building strategies? Because what I was really doing a lot of my online work at that time is I was doing two things.I was doing some contract work with some other SaaS companies. In terms of an audience building creator standpoint, I was doing two things. One was that I was creating the sketch notes. And so like visual, visual art of like webinars, podcasts. And that's what I would use to teach people how to take better notes so they could remember more of what they're doing.And it was a way to connect with other influencers because it was an attention grabbing thing. And so that was the main thing in terms of audience building and some course creation.The other thing that I was doing that paid the bills a little bit better at that time was I was also helping people set up WordPress themes and websites.At the time I would be like, oh yeah, you know, I kind of do some web development and then like, not really knowing like what all that meant. And then as I started to work more and more with actual developers, I would set up a theme online for people. But you also look at it and see that there's still a pretty interesting intersection between like, how can you just do something relatively simple for people that either: A, they don't have time to do, or B, they just don't want to figure out because they just want to focus on their creative work.And so that's what I was doing summer 2015 at the time.Nathan: [00:04:27]Yeah. So then at the time we were, I think four people, five people on the, let me count,Matt: [00:04:37]I think it was four if I remember properly,Nathan: [00:04:39]Myself, mark, David, Dan.Four. Yeah. and we were at 15,000 a month in revenue. Let's see now I'm trying to think.Pat Flynn had just signed up in the month of July. We'd gone from 10,000 a month to 15,000 a month, 50% growth in a single month. And that's really when the slow grind turned into, like, I started turning the corner into how are we ever going to keep up, which is where you come in with the story.But, so basically in July, Pat Flynn and then Wellness Mama, and another popular blog all signed up at the same time. And so MRR jumped, you know, we had these bigger customers that were migrating and switching over, but then as it got into August, September, they all started talking about it.And then when we went from 15,000 a month to 22,000 to maybe 35, then 50, then 80, then a hundred, like it just, in six months it went completely wild.Matt: [00:05:46]Yeah. Certainly, you know, obviously remember that. And so I was, I was brought in to help with some support initially, just to help Dan out with some support and use, you were certainly doing a ton of that at the time. And I also, roofer, I think it was the first ended up being for the first two years I was at ConvertKit.I worked on migrations for the most part. So those, you know, bigger people that were coming in, I was helping them get set up. And the other thing that I did, so I kind of had like three phases. I would do like the migrations and then I would help out out support as much as I could. And then I would also do, because not just like migrations at that point were, you know, for the, for the larger customers that we still had, like so many people signing up every single day.And so I was doing like a weekly or every other week at the most like here's how to get started workshop and just like doing that. Really like, here's how you set up your account. Make sure you do this. Here's the form. How's how you get the form on your site. If you don't want to get the form on your side, you can actually still like, you know, we had a few landing pages at the time, nothing like, you know, the lovely, lovely template library that exists now,Nathan: [00:06:56]I think by a few, you literally mean for,Matt: [00:06:59]I really, yeah. Not just like a few dozen, like literally three or four. Yeah.Nathan: [00:07:05]So when you came on, right. Cause we brought you on part-time I remember being totally overwhelmed. you and I were talking later, about like starting part-time and then gradually increasing hours. I wonder if you would share like what that was like for you, because I think there was some confusion as to like why we were ramping up your hours gradually or other things likeMatt: [00:07:27]Yeah, I think, you know, I think I understood it initially. And is there was kind of like this, there was another, SAS company that I was contracting with at the time, and I was just more excited about convert kid. And so I don't know if it was confusion as much as like, I just wanted to like go all in on what convert kid was doing.And so like maybe not confusion, but just like, I was really chomping at the bit to just like, totally focus on it and not just like step away and be like, okay, I guess, you know, kind of hit my hourly. There's still things to do, obviously. But it became pretty clear after like, I think just three or four weeks that was like, okay.Yeah. It's it's time.Nathan: [00:08:09]Yeah. And we were increasing your hours directly in proportion to the MRR at the company.Like we wanted more time from Matt, but, like needed more MRR. And the nice thing, was that MRR was coming in like week over week in a meaningful way. Whereas the previous years it had been a slow journey.Matt: [00:08:31]I know you've talked about this, you know, certainly a lot since, and ConvertKits rolled out the free plan over the last 18 months, but, you know, it was a pretty controversial thing, like in terms of building a SAS company and one that was bootstrapped that I, you know, I felt that it was, there was always a paid plan.Like there is a bit of a free-trial, but it was always paid. And so like,Nathan: [00:08:53]I think Ben, it was actually just paid from day one.Matt: [00:08:55]Yeah, you're right. we didn't even do the free trial. And so, like, you just knew that like, you know, certainly people would kind of turn out after 30 days if they didn't like it, blah, blah, blah. But we knew that there was money coming in more reliably because when people sign up or like, okay, you know, we can kind of project that. Even people that tranquility quickly, like we're still gonna have like this expected amount of LTV for the person.And we can, you know, at least forecast a little bit better that way. And so, like I thought that was, again, again, in retrospect, like really nice and probably really helpful, even if you're like, you know, and again, at the time we, you know, being bootstrapped, like you still are, that there's a, like you almost, I don't know.I wonder how you would think about this. Like, there's almost like this veil of like, how much can we handle given the people that we have and like, where is that? I remember like, feeling like we were riding that line for, you know, not just months but years.Nathan: [00:09:54]Right. No, I, I think certainly, yeah, at least a year and a half of, just things moving so quickly and like at the times, so you joined in, I don't, I don't even know like an exact date, but call it that like August, July, August timeframe, something like, that.Matt: [00:10:17]Yeah, September, I think it was like September, October around that. I always, we were talking about this pre-show but I always remember that it was right around, this is my bin. This is my like timestamp that whenever pat released his I'm switching to ConvertKit. So you can go look at the timestamp on that post.It was right around that time. So whatever that is, it was like, that's when I started like, yeah. Yeah. Obviously things started taking off a lot of that.Nathan: [00:10:43]Yeah. That post was amazing. And the, and the title even, was it like a masterclass in positioning and all of that? Cause it was titled why switched from a Webber to infusion soft to convert it?Which the reason like you're like, okay, that's a long story in a title. but the reason that was so important is because everyone at the time, like a Weber and MailChimp were the most common, but in like the blogger space, people who've been around for awhile, a wherever was even like like just as common as, as MailChimp.Matt: [00:11:17]Oh Yeah, Yeah, definitely.Nathan: [00:11:19]Then when you graduated from one of those tools, you went to Infusionsoft, everybody did.And so if Pat had written the article of why I switched from a Webber to ConvertKit, people would be like, oh, but You never tried Infusionsoft.Like, and so there's a third act to this where you go like convert it, you know, you've outgrown ConvertKit and now you'll go to, if you just offer something.And so by having that in there, it was, you know, it just told the whole story and peopleMatt: [00:11:43]Right.Nathan: [00:11:44]Was like, wait, whatMatt: [00:11:45]You already tried Infusionsoft. That's what all the big names use pat, you're a big name. What are you doing?Nathan: [00:11:53]When I remember him being on mere cat Periscope, one of the two, like in live streams, like late at night, because pat likes to work at 10 or 11 at night And people would be like, wait, what email service are you using? Cause he'd like drop hints or, you know, something like that. And then there'd be like 50 or a hundred people commenting. like what are you using? I'm thinking about, switching to it or whatever. So it was a remarkable time.Matt: [00:12:16]It was his, Yeah,And I mean, who knows what the future holds, but like, that was definitely like the most like fast paced, interesting like seat of the pants, you know, like ride that I've been on.Nathan: [00:12:32]Yeah, we'll give a talk about rocket ship.It was that.So let's see. Maybe if we fast forward a little bit, actually maybe talking about that moment, right? Cause we went from, when you joined, we didn't even have, like an LLC. We didn't have payroll. We didn't have anything because that is cause Ashley joined in November. And the first thing that she did was set up like, a companyMatt: [00:12:57]You were paying me through PayPal.Nathan: [00:12:59]That's right. Yeah. And so then she went through and set up like the company and taxes and payroll and health benefits.Matt: [00:13:07]Yeah.Nathan: [00:13:08]What were some other things from the early days? Like, I dunno, favorite memories or, stories of, of, that.Matt: [00:13:13]There was, I've been wracking my brain trying to remember it, but there's something that now I, you know, I really wish that I had found it if I do, but there's something that happened like around. I want to say, like January of that year, there was something with an account That we just all found like unnecessarily hilarious.And it was like some kind of ponder play on words that I, I, again, it's a terrible story because I can't, this is a terrible story right now because I can't remember it, but there's something in my heart and in my subconscious that I just hold so dearly, but not like closely enough, apparently there is, there are just so many moments like that and, you know, having that first, well, I kind of cheated a little bit because a bunch of us went to WDS in summer 2016 and that was the first time we all got to hang out together.And that was like really awesome and special. And then like two or three months after that was when we had our first retreat and those retreats, you know, still like, I saw, you know, Haley Jane a sec, yesterday here in Nashville. And we were talking about like the Oceanside retreats and just being able.And I always like thought. ConvertKit was like at the forefront of a lot of things, but like really making the retreats meaningful and special. And, also doing them twice a year. The thought was, you know, still think is really cool. Obviously we're in an odd time for that right now. But to be able to like see the people and like work with them in person, those are all like some of my, some of my best memories from working at the company, like even outside of like the actual rocket ship of like growth that we all went on and just having those, having, I still, like one of the coolest things, like for me is still like having connections and strong relationships with people at the company.Even now that I haven't like worked there. Gosh, I guess a little over two years now, like to be on your podcast, to like, have Haley text me and say like, Hey, I'm in Nashville, let's meet up. Like those, like, it's, it sounds like kind of trite to say, but it's like, it's the people, it's the zoom calls. It's the stand-ups that were fun.And the other thing that like, all kind of ended on is something that I've always kind of taken away that I think is so fun is I remember like our Monday stand-ups or Monday meetings and just how out of control the zoom chat would get, like, it would completely derail meetings. you know, it probably still does, you know, you set a high, a high standard, but like, I've now been like, I've been at podium in it.Like I've been on like other, like companies, zoom calls and, or just like, you know, groups that I'm a part of and all like trying to get the chat start and people are like, what are you doing?Like you're ruining The meeting. I'm like,Nathan: [00:16:10]Yeah. The peopleMatt: [00:16:11]Nope. Yeah. I guess I am ruining the meeting. If you all, aren't going to play along and like, you know, talk trash inside of the chat.I guess I'm ruining the meeting, but those, I still like, obviously think about it and just can't help, but like laugh about it.Nathan: [00:16:28]There was a meeting.I'm trying to think who it was. We had Derek on the marketing team. I don't know if that's been three years or more ago, had brought in some like growth expert. It might've even been like Sean Ellis or someone who like really knows even just like pinnacle of growth marketing. And he's like talking to the group and I'm there and it's just like, it's, it's our crew, you know?And so I'm dropping like jokes and random things in the zoom chat.And of course he didn't see it in real time, you know? Cause he's like presenting and, he's like, just so confused because normal companies don't do that. So it's like, the most converted thing that no one on the outside would knowMatt: [00:17:16]Yeah.Nathan: [00:17:17]Troll our zoom chats constantly.And it's so fun.Matt: [00:17:20]Yeah, it was definitely Sean, because we had just signed up for the growth hacker software and we're using it to run our growth tests. And when you sign up for an annual plan, we had done like some little extra special thing and, or like, you can have an hour with Sean. We're like, yes.Like if you want, we're like, yes, we'll put it, you know, put it on our tab. We'll grab an hour with Sean. And I do remember that. He was like, oh, it looks like there's a question. Oh, there's not a question in the chat. What is going on? Do you, do you want to say something? We're all like, Nope, sorry, wait, nevermind. We'll do it anymore. I just, you know, of course couldn't help ourselves. Then he was like, oh, you're doing that in the chat again. Like, Okay.Yep.Right.Nathan: [00:17:59]Yeah. That's just, That's just, how we are. there was another time that I'm curious for your take on. So, cause we, like, if we fast forward a little bit, we were, you know, trying to keep up with the crazy growth. so w like go to January and we're like a hundred K MRR. I mean, at this point we've expanded the team quite a bit.Right. Nicole, Ashley,Matt: [00:18:25]Yeah. Darryl Blake, Danny.Nathan: [00:18:28]Danny and, and others were, were a bitMatt: [00:18:30]I get, yeah, thoseNathan: [00:18:31]But like Brad Knoll, you know, more on the engineering side, just across the board. So the team's gone from like, you know, four to 11, like really quickly, and just, we're trying to keep up, like, keep the servers on, keep the support ticket it's going and all of that.But we made this move to try to get profit. from, I think it was probably February until like that February til July, I think. And we went from 3% profit margins to 50% profit margins, all through growth. like, we didn't cut expenses.Be growing 15 to 25% a month, you know, but I'm curious what that was like from your side of what, you know, like, when I came in and said like Hey, we're gonna, we're going to do this and we're gonna try to pull it off.Is it like, oh, this is going to be a death March? Or is this like, oh, we're all in it together. like we'll see how it goes.Matt: [00:19:24]I think, that at that point, and I felt like me, especially, but at that point, like we were all like that kind of classic start-up line of like, we were all like young and dumb enough to think that we could pull it off. And because like I had had a front row seat of going from like 500 to 3000 users in a few months and like all that, all of that growth, cause especially like initially for me and part of this actually.A bigger interest in like understanding more of the financials behind like startups. And because like, when you first said that, I was like, okay, well, I don't really know how we're going to, how that all works, but that's not my job, you know, that's Ashley's job. And I trust her and, you know, Nathan will figure it out too.So, but cause I tended for a long time to think of our growth. It's funny, you know, you obviously keep mentioning the revenue growth. Like I would just think of it as like month over month user growth as well. Cause like I just saw them like in the chat forever. And so I remember like just that all of us had either op he said, we wouldn't, you went from four to 11 or 12 really quickly.And so all of us were like so fresh and Fired Up that we're like, great. I mean, look what just happened in the last three months. Of course, you know, we can do this in the next, in the next six. So. I remember being like, fired up about it because like, it was that kind of classic. I didn't know any better at theNathan: [00:20:55]Right. Yeah. If we were all, we were also, you know, I was looking back at like salaries from those days and like the 40, 50, $60,000 a year salary is that like, we can not like no one would take that today. but then it was just like, we're all doing this thing. And you know, it's pretty amazing to seesomeone who was like, started at Ken Birkin on to $40,000 a year salary, like five, five years ago is now making like one 20 plus a bunch of profit sharing or other things it's like, okay, there we go.Like the bet that they made did actually payMatt: [00:21:30]Yeah, absolutely.Nathan: [00:21:35]It was tough going for awhile.Matt: [00:21:36]Yeah, And it's been a really cool thing, like even, and this comes like from the transparency, like I've consulted with some other. Companies over the last six months and I've used ConvertKit as a, reference point so many times because of the transparency, I was like, well, I mean, you can go look at what, you know, they're like, what do you think the like, numbers are for somebody?This is like, I don't have to wonder you just go look at what, you know, ConvertKit's numbers.I can tell you that it's this, this, this, like, how do you know that it's like, just go to convert, get.parametric.com. So it's all right there. You can find your numbers. It's all right.And so, like, I, you know, remember thinking that like, again, like this is where, like my dormant, like love of again, statistics and financials and all of that.Can I came, came back to life for, for me. And it was just a, it was just amazing to see like that first. And it wasn't, it was more than just the first year also. Like it just kind of kept going and again, it's just a really, it's a really unique experience. Yeah. I'll obviously never forget.Nathan: [00:22:44]Yeah. Well, you mentioned retreats earlier, and I have a favorite moment at a retreat. I think it was, probably would have been our third retreat cause we were up in, up in McCall, outside of Boise.And it was you starting like making a first YouTube video with Charlie or did you do thatMatt: [00:23:03]That was an ocean side, actually. That was an ocean side.Nathan: [00:23:05]What was it that you were doing in McCall? When were you entirely just talking about YouTube?Matt: [00:23:10]Yeah, we were doing a collab at that point as the YouTubers say. Yeah, just talking about like productivity and planning. How she plans her day, how I plan mine. Cause she's, you know, Charlie, just as a quick aside, like just an amazing person, greater friend, like she helped me so much. They get my YouTube channel started. Like I, again, she's wonderful. But to like sit down the day that we're supposed to, this is an ocean side we're supposed to like leave and two hours, everybody's like trying to pack. I don't know how ready she was to leave. Maybe she was already, but she was like, Hey, you know, Matt let's do a video for your YouTube channel.I was like the one that I haven't started yet. And she's like, yes, we're doing a video. And it was just, you know, it was six, seven minutes. And for her to sit down, I think she was around like 70 K subscribers at that time to like, kind of, I was like, I had known Charlie for a while at that time. And we were pretty close, but I was like still nervous.And then like Mark's walking through the back of the frame. Picking stuff up gathering like, you know, paraphernalia it's I don't know if that's the right word to use. Just stuff was a terrible word, terrible word, choice thing. Trash we're good people we're picking up. Yeah. After ourselves. And so it was just like this really funny moment.And I try not to talk too much about YouTube cause I know we're going to get into it. But like that video still only has like maybe 500 views is people think that when your YouTube channel gets big, like all of your videos take off. And the majority of my first 50 videos are still like, well, under a thousand views. And it's it is this like kind of it's like compounding interest. It's like, you know, compounding, like, you know, user growth that it just kinda builds on top of itself. It creates this like self, you know, like when people come to your channel, even if it hasn't taken off yet and people see. Okay. This person is serious.He has 30 videos. It's not like he threw a couple up there, like people know that you're in it. And so I can tell you what I thought you were going to say.I think it was the second McCall retreat. And so we go up to this lodge and it's right by, you know, beautiful lake in, even in August, quite chilly and so swimming around.And, our coworker, Nicole has these like prescription sunglasses, fancy, expensive, nice. Just like Nicole. And they fell off in the lake, not super deep, but like, we swam around trying to find these things for like 20 minutes at the end of the day, we're like, okay, we got to go back.It's dinner time. It's getting. And so the next morning I'll say like, I like cold water, which is a whole nother like conversation, but I like cold water. I also like particularly cold mountain water in the morning, like so brisk, so nice. And so I was like, okay, well, am I do this anyway, I'm going to find those damn glasses. And so over there I swim around because my other theory was like, okay, we kicked up a lot of like gunk at the bottom.It's going to settle. No, one's out there yet. I'm going to find them.And INathan: [00:26:26]The other thing is you had this this time,Matt: [00:26:28]I did have goggles thisNathan: [00:26:29]Because I remember I was like first thing in the morning or, or maybe it was at night. I can't remember, but like,Matt: [00:26:37]In the morning.Definitely.Nathan: [00:26:38]Like all of this, stuff on the table randomly, can you come in And you're like, and see a pair of goggles sitting there. You're like did we have these Ulta?And was like, know,Matt: [00:26:47]We had goggles the whole time.Yeah.Nathan: [00:26:52]You find those. And then, I don't know, like minutes later, you're in the lake. Yeah.Matt: [00:26:56]Yeah.And so pull, pull those out and was a great, was a great moment. Like the, to return those.Nathan: [00:27:03]Nicole wakes up late hours later, you know? Cause you're up early swimming, like, and thenshe has her like hundreds of dollars prescription sunglasses back. That was actually the very first retreat That wasMatt: [00:27:14]For street.Yeah.Oh man. Good times.Nathan: [00:27:18]Like getting, I mean, we were 20 people at the time getting that group together for the first time was those are just special moments in a company.Matt: [00:27:27]Yeah. absolutely.Nathan: [00:27:29]Okay. So would it be the next retreat then? That was Oceanside. When you did the YouTube video with Charlie or was it a year? Four year.Matt: [00:27:36]Yeah. That would have been the next, that would have been the Oceanside retreat. That would have been probably the first ocean side retreat, because it was February, 2017 that I started my YouTube channel and DV a little background. Like I had done blogging for a little while. I had like tried some service work, like I already mentioned. I had done 30 interviews on a podcast back in like 2014 when we first moved to Nashville. And that was actually one of the ways that I met Ryan Delk because Brenda elk was on the podcast.Crazy looking back the, the two, the other person that I got on the show, I don't even know how, even then was James clear, a mutual friend, James clear was on the show and now he's like James clear in 2014. No big deal is like, he was still talking about passive Panda. That's right. Matt Ragland interview that now even Matt can't find anywhere. And so you're welcome James, if you're listening to this.And so I'd done a bunch of different things online, and I would say that while I did build my creative chops and confidence through all those things, I hadn't really stuck with one thing long enough to see. Like again, that compounding growth that comes from just being consistent and showing up. and again, mutual friend, Sean McCabe talks about showing up every day for two years. And, so what I did is I decided in February I was going to post a video every day. I was gonna do 28 videos and in February, so a little, little fun, cheating them,Nathan: [00:29:13]I liked thatMatt: [00:29:15]Yeah, that's right. That's right.Nathan: [00:29:19]10% easier.Matt: [00:29:20]That's right. And so I did that and I just, I got more used to it and I didn't take off, like, I've talked with Darryl, we've mentioned derelict at times, like Darryl and I have talked about this, but like the channel did not take off. And I ended up making after Daily is, is quite the grind.I just, you know, I couldn't keep that up, but I was doing still weekly videos through the rest of the year. Yeah. Then, it was the other thing that is just wonderful about creating a body of work is that then you have a, you know, a much clearer data set to look at, to understand the, these are the topics.These are the type of videos that took off more for me, you know, if you just make a handful of videos and you see one is a little bit better than another, that's not a good enough sample size, but at the end of the year in December, I'm looking back and I've created like 50, 60 videos at this point. And I pinpoint like, what is the most popular, like as I'm going into new year?What, how can I kind of maybe narrow down my niche a little bit more and be more focused? And I saw that my most popular video of the year is one that I had released in August where I talked about how I planned my week with the bullet journal. And I'd been using the bullet journal method for a couple of years at this point.And. So I was like, well, you know, new year's coming up, I'm going to like create this video. Here's how I'm playing my year and a bullet journal. And at the time, like, I felt good about it actually like, Levi Allen, who's great. You know, YouTube and creator, graphing commerce speaker, Casey Neistat friend.He helped me with the thumbnail. I like sent him a bunch of, and so we really dialed in the thumbnail and that video is like, I think it was at like 600 ish subscribers at the time. And I hadn't had a single video go over a thousand views as like, I hope this video is the one that goes over a thousand views and it would also be cool if eventually it helped me get to a thousand subscribers because you got to remember, I've been doing this 11 months and had 600 subscribers.So I'm like, you know, maybe in like another six months I can get there and I released the video and it started to take off. Like, especially for me, but then I was really like, oh, this is like taking off for like any kind of YouTube video.It has a thousand views in the first day.And then you're definitely within the first two days. And then I had a thousand subscribers by the end of the first week, I was like, oh, okay. Interesting. But again, I was able to see that like big picture data to like pinpoint that particular type of video too. And again, it was a good time time of the year, literally to be talking about productivity and planning.I've seen that like over and over again in the year, since, as I've narrowed down on this niche. and then the way that I create and I tell creators this all the time now, is that when you see something that hits like find the, like, especially if it's like a bigger video, like I had, this was like 20 minutes.It kind of like didn't fit the normal, like YouTube things. But I talked about a lot of different elements. Of productivity in that video. And so my next four videos were basically like taking these different, like components that I had crammed into a big overview video and said, like, here's how I blocked my time.Here's how I manage my tasks. Here's how I like plan out my week. So we take like something that's big on the macro side of saying like, here's how I plan a year. You start to plan a quarter here, the months they go into that. And then like the weeks they go into the months. So I spent like my next six videos, just basically breaking down the individual aspects of that first video.And then it was just like off to the races at that point.Nathan: [00:33:07]Yeah, that's fascinating to me. What have you found about LinkedIn videos Cause I'd be like, oh, it needs to be a shorter video. AndMatt: [00:33:14]Right?Nathan: [00:33:15]The truth of the matter is yeah, just get into an online.Matt: [00:33:19]For me, I have found that my, with one exception. My longer videos traditionally have performed better because there is this interesting, like there is this interesting dichotomy of like statistics on YouTube is that they want a high retention time. But if you can kind of like overrule that with a long view time, then it like still works the same way.So like a video that I create that's 20 minutes. If someone was like, you want to be over 50% video, like time retention. But if you're talking about it's a 20 minute video and someone watches for nine minutes, well, like I've seen and you do has been changing a lot, I think. But I've seen that if you keep someone on YouTube for nine minutes, they'd almost kind of rather you have.A lower like overall retention, if you can keep them on there longer than normal. So like for example, you know, the difference would be like, if I have a five minute video with 60% of it, you know, 60% view retention, but then that's only like three minutes watched versus 40% view retention, but it's eight or nine minutes watched.Like those, those have tended to perform better for me. However, I have been working on lately, like more this year, trying to be more concise with my video and with my takeaway and my talking points. And so I've been trying to be like under 10 minutes for most videos at this point, that's where I've kind of found a sweet spot and even experimenting with some sub five minute videos that is just like, literally.Here is one tip. I'm not stacking like additional concepts on top of each other. It's kind of the equivalent of like, just doing like that 500 words a day, like maybe a thousand words a day. You're just trying to get that. Like, you're trying to get that five minute, like blitz out without like trying to expend a bunch of time, like trying to like get the perfect 12 minute video or 3000 word blog post.Nathan: [00:35:36]Yeah, that makes sense. So in that journey from breaking the thousand subscribers to now, you're about to break 60,000 subscribers. what are some of the things like if you were, if I was like, and you know, Matt, I'm going to start a YouTube channel today, or I have one that has like you know, maybe I've shown that I can like show up consistently andMatt: [00:35:55]Right.Nathan: [00:35:56]That, that ability. but what are the things like the, the tips and lessons that you've learned along the way.Matt: [00:36:02]The biggest ones are to just continue being consistent. I think I could have like actually been, have grown even faster than I did if I had been even a little bit more consistent. Like I think two videos a week is really great, even though, you know, full disclosure and you can go look at my YouTube channel.I have struggled to do like two videos a week consistently, but that is also because like, I have a bunch of other creative interests that all fuel each other. And we'll talk about those, but if you're just talking about like growth on YouTube, then it really is the consistency that will help you win the day and grow your channel.The other thing is that as much as we want to as creators, let the work stand for itself and like be a great overall piece of content.On, you know, on YouTube, the title and the thumbnail are equivalent, like to your, like, for those of us that like kind of grew up blogging a little bit more like the headline, or like with email newsletter in the subject line, like that is the YouTube equivalent and it is so, so, so important.And so, you know, YouTube gets kind of a bad rap sometimes for like the clickbaiting this, and that's definitely a thing, but it's, again, people have said that about subject lines and blog headlines for years, but that is really, really important. And if you don't grab someone's interest in like these three phases of the title, the thumbnail, and then like, literally what is your opening line?Because YouTube will show that those are the biggest things. And I think that like the amount of time that you should spend on that kind of changes based on what phase of YouTube and just content creation in general.Because if you're talking about like, okay, I want to go from five to 10 or 10 to 20, I would still probably argue that you should like focus on.And depending on, you know, what your time is, like, you should focus more on the consistent output than like really worrying about trying to over-optimize every little piece. And there are good ways about that in there, like tough ways about this. But I would basically say like, I would rather use, I would rather see you put out four video, like a weekly video than just one monthly video that you feel like, oh, this is, this is the one, this is, this is it.I spent so much time on editing and the sound is perfect and all the transitions are smooth and all, you know, the, the thumbnail just looks so good and I got the title dial.Because you can believe all that, but like the market ultimately decides like the viewer ultimately decides how much they really care about that as well.And the other thing that is kind of tough, like I think mentally for creators is, and I've, I've done this a ton of times is when you feel like, oh, I, I made this as perfect as I can. I feel so good about this. And then it just bombs. And you're like, what the hell? Now? I feel less confident. I'm less excited about the next one.Cause if I put so much effort into this video and it didn't work or this newsletter, this course, and it didn't work out, what, like, what does that mean? And you get into all these like existential creator questions bouncing around in your head.Nathan: [00:39:18]I, yes, there's a lot of that.So it sounds like you're saying optimize for like number of shots on goal, rather than like the highest probability shot and optimize it, like yeah.Quantity over Quantity and continue optimization over likeMatt: [00:39:35]Right,Nathan: [00:39:36]The clinical of the perfect videoMatt: [00:39:38]Right.Nathan: [00:39:38]Putting. All of it. IMatt: [00:39:40]Yeah,Nathan: [00:39:40]Analogies never throw an eggs in that basket?IMatt: [00:39:42]That's right. yeah. Yeah. But I think it's a good one. And I would really continue to like play out through, I'm just getting into a point personally, where I want to spend more time editing, like doing All those more optimization things, but it's not even so much from an audience growth perspective is I just want to get better.Like I see other YouTubers, other creators that I like, I admire their work so much. And I really am wondering how close can I get to that? But I'm making a choice. I'm making a personal choice to focus more on like the quality and the craft. And I do have like, I've built myself to a good benchmark to work on that.But like for so long, literally for four years is like, I'm going to record my planner. I'm going to record, you know, like notion I'm gonna. I'm basically going to do some type of screencast, whether it's analog or digital, and then I'm going to do a talking head, like, you know, in and out of everything and that's all I'm going to do.And that was really good for me because it was allowing me to be consistent. I didn't over edit anything. I took a lot of inspiration from Powell. like Tim Ferris would describe his early days with the podcast and even still like, he does it pretty raw. He doesn't over edit. And like I was like, yeah, okay.You know, Tim is Tim, but if he's willing to do that, I can certainly be willing to let go of some of the, you know, the editing, like finer details that especially early on, don't matter as much as like just actually making the thing.Nathan: [00:41:18]Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So maybe let's go back to your arc of the story, right? So when you pass the thousand subscribers, that was 11 months into the channel, is that that's right?Matt: [00:41:29]Correct?Nathan: [00:41:30]And so that would have been a year and a half into working at ConvertKitMatt: [00:41:34]Yeah. About that actually. Yeah.Nathan: [00:41:36]20 15, 20 16, 20 17, they allMatt: [00:41:38]Yeah. It's just a blur. Yeah.Nathan: [00:41:40]And so then, like where did the channel go from there? You really doubled down on Bullet journalMatt: [00:41:47]Bullet journaling productivity. And that's really like, pretty much all I did. I tried to do a like more bloggy blog kind ofNathan: [00:41:57]Yeah.Matt: [00:41:58]After one of the, after one of the retreats, But I actually ended up, it was from, it was from that ocean side. It was from the 2018Oceanside country. Yeah,Nathan: [00:42:09]Confusing me. We'd go to differentMatt: [00:42:10]Yeah,Nathan: [00:42:11]That would, be easier. But what she told me back call, it was just like you know,Matt: [00:42:13]Yeah.Nathan: [00:42:14]Is amazing, but also really difficult for our like, mentalMatt: [00:42:18]That's right. And so I did like, Hey, you know, I traveled, I did like a travel blog thing and at the time I was doing videos, like my videos would, were pretty commonly like hitting about 5k, you know, on average, if not more. And so it was like, cool, let's see how this, and then that travel one, just like, didn't get picked up by the algorithm. People who had joined my channel, where like I joined for productivity and bullet journaling, not like to see you go to the beach. And that was kind of like, okay, well, you know, and it's an interesting thing as a creator to think about like, well, I like to make this and people are like, so how does it help me?And, you know, there's an element of that, that I, I still like very much feel like a creative tension around, but at that time it was like, okay, well, I don't need to worry about my creative output on this particular thing at a time because the other, the other thing that, I'm only now like getting a little bit more used to controlling my time as like being a full-time creator, because at the time it was like, okay, well, if I only am committing like five to 10 hours a week to this as a side hustle, and as like a thing I'm doing, obviously on the side, am I going to use those five to 10 hours to create a video that not many people are going to watch or what I know at this point, people are interested in and it just became a matter of like prioritization as well.Nathan: [00:43:39]Right. So how did that feel? Like was, were you disappointed when the, the blog, you know, this is my wife kind of content didn't resonate with your audience.Matt: [00:43:49]Yeah a little bit, because there was this element. And I actually like in, I was talking to a client about this yesterday because he was asking me some of these same questions and I wish that I had protected one video a month, or even at the least like one video every couple of months to just be like, this is me, like just doing something that I'm interested in.Like, this is a story that I want to tell. This is like a part of me that I want to show to kind of prime the audience to like, just get to know me in that slightly different way, and just being okay with those videos, not doing as well, because I think I would have like worked in more of like a lot of my personality comes through even in just like the regular videos, but just more of my life, more of my interests, more of the things that I was thinking about. As I've now started to pivot, like in lean into that a little more than I'm going through that again, of like, oh, this isn't what really what I thought I was. And now I'm just more, more confident or just more secure most of the time and being like, yeah, well, I think I've said pretty much everything that I can say about how to make lists in your bullet journal.I have like literally a hundred videos. I don't know what else I can say. And I'll still say some things, but it's definitely flipping more for me of like, instead of doing like an occasional non bullet journal video, like every month or two, it's gonna like switch back, it's gonna flip the other way. And bullet journal will be like one, one, maybe two videos, every one to two months.Nathan: [00:45:27]Are you worried about, or like, have you seen trends of what that's going to do to have you countedMatt: [00:45:31]Oh, I'm terrified. terrified. and well, part of the other like tipping point, and this is like bringing it's like more, where I am on the arc right now and I've talked to some other YouTubers about this, you know, results, results may vary, of course, but after January ended and the productivity, you know, the productivity season of December, January was over.I still stayed on like productivity bullet journal videos, but they just started to fall off a cliff in terms of, in terms of views and the like subscribers were down also, like I had a 30 day straight, I had not a 30 day stretch, a 90 day stretch. So an entire quarter that used to be like that entire quarter used to be like, basically an okay.In terms of like month over month, like new subscriber growth, new views. I still have, again, like a whole like library of content, especially the bigger videos that generate like plenty of views every month. And in terms of new videos, new views, like new subscriber growth was just like steadily going down and I'm looking at and thinking like, I just started doing this full-time this is not what I signed up for.I'm doing the thing, which is like this whole other like, weird, like transition of a mindset between like, when you're more of an employee, I was talking to Jeff Goins about this, but when you're more, when you are an employee, even at a startup, and I know I can like say this in retrospect now you're still just kind of looking to either your manager or your founder be like, what would you like me to do that you believe will bring the most growth and like good startup operators, you know?And I felt like I started to do this more towards the end and we'll be more proactive and be like, this is the thing, you know, that's what a manager and director. Yeah. But there's still like this element of like, yeah, I'm the employee. And like, this is what I need to do. And if I continue to do my job in the way that it is expected, I will get my money.I will get my career advancement. I will do my thing. I will check the boxes and being an entrepreneur and especially being a full-time creator, none of that, none of that matters anymore because there've been multiple instances even in these first six months. And like what in the world? I like, I haven't really seen these videos.I'm doing it once a week. Like check, check, check, check, check. It didn't work. I created this course. It went good so I can make it great. I spend a lot of time on it. Didn't do the launch that I wanted to, and you're like, I'm doing things. I'm checking the boxes. Why is this work? What the heck? What am I supposed to do now?And it's this whole like new mindset that I'm kind of coming into. Like when you are an entrepreneur, you create opportunity and you, like, you have to like, have this, like to bring a Ted lasso reference in like the mind of a goldfish of like, oh, that didn't work. And I think about this in like, I've started doing jiu-jitsu in the last year as well.It's like, okay, well that didn't move. Didn't work. Oh, no, I'm on my back. Now all these say this is going terribly, but like, you have to like, forget these failures really quickly and just learn as much as you can. So that, and like have a really thick skin or just like a really forgetful mind to like, okay, well, even though I felt like I did all the right things, this didn't work because, to put a, put a bow on like this particular like loop last week, I don't know if you saw this, like I put a tweet up and said, Hey, if you haven't set up a course before you have an idea, I can help you do this.It's a thousand dollars. But if you don't make a thousand dollars, I'll just give you your money back and you'll have your cool. And I just, like, I literally thought of that in the shower and then I tweeted it and now I've signed up like seven clients in a week.Like, okay, if that's going to be the thing, because it's like this other thing, I worked really hard on this course and, you know, I spent like a month on it and I did, I'm like, but I, you know, God the shower and send a tweet and made like eight grand.And it'll probably be 10 grand by the end of next week, by the end of the month. And so like, okay, well, that's, you know, just kind of how being an entrepreneur and being a creator is, and then the next stage of it is, you know, what we were talking about, like early on, just swinging at Berkeley, like, okay, you've had the central growth, how do you systematize it?How do you like scale it? And how do you get it to like, be a thing that you can really rely on instead of just like, hoping that you send like a good tweet or the right email or make the right connection. Like it's creating that opportunity for yourself and then harnessing.Nathan: [00:50:04]Yeah. For sure. What you touched on it is interesting to me is the being responsible for inputs versus outputs at a lot of jobs. you're responsible for the inputs. Like you're talking about check the boxes.Matt: [00:50:16]Right,Nathan: [00:50:17]And we like to think that the inputs always result in the output. and often that's not true. And so as a creator, you're responsible for both sides of it. And, you know, you can't be like oh, the AI didn't get the outputs that I wanted. You know, what that's okay. Because you're like, Hey, one of the outputs is money for rent, you know? And, and so there's a lot more, a lot more pressure there.Matt: [00:50:43]Yeah. And it's interesting is that even in some of these like rough months, and so I haven't told this story like publicly, because it's still so fresh, but you know, like when I have like my, Stripe and Stripe payouts come weekly, it's a nice little nice little thing. Like, okay, we're doing pretty good.I was just about to go on this week long backpacking trip, and do like a mentoring backpacking trip, with some high school kids. And I was already like, feeling stressed about as like, I haven't had a good month. What the, Hey, you know, I shouldn't be doing this. I can't just go in the woods for eight days and like not work on the business is not at that point.I've made a huge mistake and I'm like, well, I'm still going to do it. I'm not going to leave these people high and dry. But as I'm like going to the woods, I like miss, you know, stupidly open my email and the Stripe payout thing. As soon as like your payout of $30 is on its way. I'm like, oh no, but because you are, you have that, that feeling of like, yeah, it's like, you know, the only thing that's coming in is what you create and what you build in what you, what you promote.It's like this idea. That I've been talking about a lot and heard a lot of people reference as well. It's like, you know, being this full stack creator, like it's not just that you make thing, but you market the thing, you build a team around the thing. And I have seen like more and more creators, like building more teams around like things that like, they either don't like doing or not as good at.And so that's a whole and that's, but that's a whole other piece of like building out your like personal stack of skills and responsibilities.Nathan: [00:52:14]Yeah. I was talking about the front end of the day and just explaining like all the business things and realizing, oh, running a business, being a creator is a uniquely assembled collection of a ton of individual skills, because we were like, God for this competition. And I realized like, oh, you don't have the, you know, knock on this. It's just a skill that you need to learn. But the like spreadsheets, forecasting skill, like the, I wonder how this is going to work. And so I opened up Google sheets and I like model it out and it's probably ridiculous. But it's better than holding it in my head. And then like you write down your assumptions and then you compare, you know, reality to those assumptions.And that's just one of like a thousand skills that you have to learn. and then like years after you've learned it, you're like forgetting that that's actually a distinct skill that had toMatt: [00:53:07]Right?Nathan: [00:53:07]Know, like yeah. I mean, everybody knows how to do that and do that a thousand times over and like, that's the creator experience,Matt: [00:53:13]Yeah. And it goes to this, like, people get really overwhelmed by that and something that I've been hammering the last, like several months, especially in fourth graders, is this, like, I think of it like the new 10 X rule of like output and effort of like, if you're not sure if you want to do something, like try it 10 times.And like really, you know, really give it a good try, but like write 10 newsletters, you know, get 10 subscribers, make 10 videos on YouTube, record 10 podcasts, just to see, like, you don't have to make this light. We tend to think of things as like making this lifetime commitment to a ship to a pod or whatever, but like do 10 and see how you feel about it like that.Even though I said I was going to do and did like 28 videos, it was kind of like just a slightly more expanded version of like, how do I feel after 28 YouTube videos, I enjoy it. And I'm getting used to it. I'm going to keep doing it. But I had like that really specific, like benchmark of this is the, this is the number that I'm going to get to.And then I'm going to see. And I found that like going from 10 to a hundred is definitely a slog and there are lots of mini milestones, but once you do, and this kind of goes even outside of creative output, but like once you do something a hundred times, you're going to like build momentum on it. And you're also going to like, build your own confidence and yeah.Not on ironic. And I've seen this across a few different creators. I think maybe Ali doll has like a similar experience, but for me, when I made my hundreds, it was right around my hundredth video on YouTube that I hit 10,000 subscribers and it's right around like the hundredth, like email newsletter when I started to like, see that, I just felt really comfortable writing those emails.Like, you know, the growth, the growth was good, but just like my personal confidence in it was like so high. That was like, yeah. I mean, it's time to read the newsletter. I'm going to read the newsletter. It's not like this weeping and gnashing of teeth, about like, will this work or not. And then you said like, you do it a thousand times because we look at some of our most prolific creators like MKBHD, you know, Casey Neistat, Roberto Blake, like from the YouTube space, all of those guys, like Amy Landino, all of those people have like over a thousand videos published on YouTube and.Oh, yeah. And like, yes, they have great audiences and huge numbers, but like, just look at the output, like their masters, because they have published a thousand videos. And when you think of it in that way, it's like, there's so many different things that you can do in terms of mastering and optimization.And like, there are like, you know, I guess you could say there are growth hacks that you could use, but like, look at anyone that you admire and just look at the sheer volume of their work.Nathan: [00:55:50]Yeah, it's, it's substantial. I want to talk about how that volume of work turns into, an income.And so could you break down, I guess yeah. How you earn an income now, where it comes from? I think people would expect that like a lot of it comes from YouTube ads. yeah. What are the different, like in your creative stack?What are the things that drive revenue?Matt: [00:56:15]Yeah. The two biggest things that drive revenue for me, that for, especially coming from a YouTube space for a main audience, the two biggest things, it's still driving revenue?For me are courses and then consulting or coaching that comes alongside or with those courses. And so I don't even do like a huge, like, you know, tiered course like program in terms of like, yeah, it's $400 for the course, or you can do like $800 to have like some coaching with me.A lot of the coaching comes naturally from people who have gone through the course. And then usually I'll do like a, an email once the course is over, say, Hey, if you want me and I'll drop hints, like throughout some of the, throughout some of the content, but it's like, Hey, if you want to work on this directly with me here, some of my like rates and different ways that we can work together.But I would say probably 60, 70% at least comes through courses and coaching. That can shift. because I, you know, I do, admittedly not have the best evergreen, course sales funnel that I could have. It's been a big, like focus for me because, and just take a quick aside, one of the reasons I decided to do full-time creators, cause there were so many things that I wanted to optimize and that I wanted to do that I was never going to be able to get around to on like 10 ish hours a week, never going to be able to do it and stay like even remotely consistent with actually it would have been like, Hey, I'm not gonna make any videos or send any emails for three months so that I can create the system.And then it's like, I'm back and it's up. But so from the revenue perspective, the like the percentages between my courses versus coaching kind of shit. But it's, I would say like pretty even between those, between those two. and then there are all these like smaller things. Like there are, there are affiliates, I would say YouTube revenue on average is a little higher than affiliate revenue.But I also like,Nathan: [00:58:22]Yeah.How much would you be earning? so, someone like I have 60,000 subscribers, what should I expect to be making a month off of YouTube revenue.Matt: [00:58:32]I can say that the most I have ever made in one month of YouTube is 800 and around $850.That's my best month ever. And, like I mentioned, declining views over the last few months, I will bring it. It's like 250 this month, which is like, great. You're like covering software expenses at that point. Which, you know, I do think is like a nice benchmark for people to kind of shoot for is I can, can I cover my costs, but so it's, it's pretty low. Like I've never made more than $10,000 in a year on YouTube ads and same thing, kind of same thing for affiliates. But because of the jobs that I've worked in, like, I haven't done a whole lot of like software affiliate, promo, and that's like, I've done like other like smaller affiliates, mostly like for books and like smaller things like Amazon affiliate kind of stuff.And those are all like 10% is good for that. But you like for software, like that's really bad, likeNathan: [00:59:42]Yeah.Matt: [00:59:44]10%. I'm not promoting your thing for 10%. You're talking about, but like for hard goods, that's more, that's a lot more common. And so like, affiliate revenue, especially from a software side is something that I'm focusing more.But even still like between affiliates and, YouTube ads, that's definitely, definitely less than 20 K and probably more around like 12 to 15 K. And so that's one thing. And then I do some brand deals and sponsorships, but, admittedly not going super hard after those right now, because again, it's something that it takes up a lot.Like it takes up a lot of time to like, do a good brand partnership and that there are lots of good reasons behind that, but I'm having to do all of that and it slows down my creative process so much. And it's such like, like emotionally, it's not something that I like getting into. Cause it's like this back and forth and it's like, well, you know, I'd be like, well, you know, we kind of scoped out this kind of budget.Like, well, it'd be nice to have known that before we got into this conversation. And of course, and I have. Never made more than 10,000, maybe around 10,000 a year on any kind of brand sponsorship deals. So between those three things, it's anywhere from 20 to 30 K and a year, depending on how, like how well everything went and the coaching consulting courses, like the, those three CS, thoseNathan: [01:01:20]Yep.Matt: [01:01:20]That bring in like 60 to 70% of the revenue.And that's what I spend my time on.Nathan: [01:01:26]Yeah, that makes sense. So I want to go back to a conversation that you and I had, I guess if we catch people up on the arch, because we don't have a ton of time left, but, There's something that happens in startups where first year, like try to figure out what you're doing. You know, all trying to figure it out at the same time.And the next round of startups is like, can we just hire the people who have already figured that out and had done it before?And so through a transition like that, right? Podia comes in like, Matt, you've done this whole thing before we're trying to do it can like, instead of all of us figuring it out, can we just bring you in And so you, you made the jump over to Podio yet. the thing that I want to talk about is a couple of years after that middle of the pandemic And, a conversation that you and I had as you're thinking about making this leap to a full-time creator, because I think so many people are like, okay, I did the side hustle thing.This is taking off. And now I'm trying to decide when is it time to quit the day job and go all in.Matt: [01:02:25]Right.Nathan: [01:02:26]Maybe take us through that. And, and some of your thoughts on it.Matt: [01:02:29]Yeah. It was something that I had been thinking about for a while. And certainly I've talked, I've talked about this on a couple of YouTube videos, but it had been in the back of my head for years. I mean, even.Pre ConvertKit that what would it be like to do this, to do this full-time? and so I had started to, again, to bring up Jeff Goins again, like he used kind of coaching me, mentoring me through some of this process.And he was like, you just need to get better and more consistent at launching products. You're going to launch a product or some kind of service or something. You're going to launch something for sale every month in 2020. And that was, and lo and behold, when you tell people like, you know, I'm not saying it's gonna like go awesome every month.Again, like we've talked about some of the ups and downs, but it's amazing what will happen to your sales when you just offer more things for sale.And so I had been doing that more and more, and it was taking, it was taking off. And what I had really wanted to do just from a mindset perspective is I had a lot of like, like kind of emotional, like money mindset, baggage that I was going to waiting through, at the, at the time.And. I was like, I need to be matching what my Podia salary is. Not just for one month, but like month over month, I needed to do that for three months. And then I had done that for three months. I was like, oh, well, this is nice. Like, should I do this now? And, you know, we got on, we got on a call and I was talki