Podcasts about segmetrics

Today we have another episode of Better Done Than Perfect. Listen in as we talk to Asia Orangio, founder and CEO of DemandMaven. You'll learn about the five growth levers you can pull, why you might be doing OKRs wrong, how to know which marketing programs to double down on, and more.Please head over to the episode page for the detailed recap and key takeaways.Show notesDemandMavenIn Demand Episode 26: What is the SaaS Black Hole?Managing SaaS Growth with Asia OrangioUserlist's email examples postsSignWell – example of a good SEO programAmplitude, Google Analytics 4, SegMetrics – marketing attribution toolsMetabase – business intelligence toolDovetail, Cognism, Balsamiq, Drift – good marketing program examplesMagicLibrary – ideas for adsProfitWell's hot sauce campaignFollow Asia on Bluesky and LinkedInThe Work by DemandMaven on SubstackThanks for listening! If you found the episode useful, please spread the word about this new show on Twitter mentioning @userlist, or leave us a review on iTunes.SponsorThis show is brought to you by Userlist — an email automation platform for SaaS companies. It matches the complexity of your customer data, including many-to-many relationships between users and companies. Book your demo call today at userlist.com.Interested in sponsoring an episode? Learn more here.Leave a ReviewReviews are hugely important because they help new people discover this podcast. If you enjoyed listening to this episode, please leave a review on iTunes. Here's how.

Why should your marketing evolve into programs? In this episode, we talk to Asia Orangio, founder and CEO of DemandMaven. You'll learn about the five growth levers you can pull, why you might be doing OKRs wrong, how to know which marketing programs to double down on, and more.Visit our website for the detailed episode recap with key learnings.DemandMavenIn Demand Episode 26: What is the SaaS Black Hole?Managing SaaS Growth with Asia OrangioUserlist's email examples postsSignWell – example of a good SEO programAmplitude, Google Analytics 4, SegMetrics – marketing attribution toolsMetabase – business intelligence toolDovetail, Cognism, Balsamiq, Drift – good marketing program examplesMagicLibrary – ideas for adsProfitWell's hot sauce campaignFollow Asia on Bluesky and LinkedInThe Work by DemandMaven on SubstackThanks for listening! If you found the episode useful, please spread the word about the show on Twitter mentioning @userlist, or leave us a review on iTunes.SponsorThis show is brought to you by Userlist — an email automation platform for SaaS companies. It matches the complexity of your customer data, including many-to-many relationships between users and companies. Book your demo call today at userlist.com.

In this Spotlight Session, we talk with Keith Perhac, Founder & CEO of Segmetrics, a middle-of-funnel business analytics tool! We discuss things like:

Keith Perhac is a marketer, developer and the founder of SegMetrics. After running a successful marketing agency, he became frustrated with the time-sink and limitations of existing reporting tools. He launched SegMetrics in 2015 to bring accurate attribution metrics to all marketers. twitter: harisenbon79 twitter: segmetrics   3:19 "It does not behoove the ad companies to give you the correct answer." -Keith Perhac 5:54 "This gargantuan problem that has affected every one of my clients for a decade." -Brian Keith 11:52 "I smell the money over there." -Brian Keith 13:36 "We're able to pull those different touch points...and combine them." -Keith Perhac 14:36 "You have to come up with marketing solutions to solve those problems." -Keith Perhac 16:11 "I always feel marketing is a combination of science and art." -Keith Perhac

Potent Quotes:Steffen Hedebrandt:  No. Even just for ourselves, I know, obviously, we do multi-touch tracking all itself, and just for a demo call to be booked on our website, normally, it takes five sessions. And that typical pattern will be the true referral source initially, which could be an ad or something else, then it could be an organic visit, and then maybe you see three direct visits afterwards. And if you want to look at the original source fields in your CM system, it'll tell you, "Oh, this is one converted from a direct visit."But, what you're not seeing is that you actually spend money on starting that journey, which means either you're growing a lot slower than you could do, or you're just wasting a lot of money because you can't really connect your spend to the business outcome that you're trying to achieve.Keith Perhac:  Right, exactly. And what I've seen in a lot of ... Because I think CRMs are starting to ... They want to have the bullet point of, "Oh, we track attribution," right? When they have the bare minimum that they need to be able to say that. But even something like ads, where you're looking at, now, branded search where ... Essentially, the Google tax. You have to be spending all this money in order to be ranking high in Google, and the CRMs are attributing that as paid traffic, even though, really, it shouldn't be paid traffic, because it's not, right? It's a tax. So, that's something where a system like yours, or what we do, becomes more important because you need to be able to drill into that more than just the top level, like, "Oh, it was an ad."Steffen Hedebrandt:  Yeah. But I think we can at least see, typically, when we look at, for example, the paid channel, there's 3 to 5x difference in terms of you understanding the world as a last touch world, or the true first touch, which means if you can invest 5x the amount of money into your marketing, then you're going to completely outgrow your competition.Steffen Hedebrandt:  And we just released some benchmarks from our own customers now, and we can see that, on average, there were 32 touches involved in an account from first touch to a deal being won, and you know, I really, honestly don't think that one touch makes a difference except that, actually, I think if there were one touch, it would be the first touch that you are actually able to get in front of the person who started that journey with you.Steffen Hedebrandt: Forget about that funnel and just focus on getting quality touches in front of people every week. Do high-quality content, do high-quality calls, do high-quality meetings. Just pegging those high-quality touches along the way. It would be nice if there were such a thing as a data recipe for what to do, but I fear you would end up in a too-average place to say something smart.Keith Perhac:  I think that's always the challenging part about analytics, especially in the agency world, because there are always 800 ways to slice the data. And whether consciously or not, you tend to go towards the one that makes you look better.Steffen Hedebrandt:  I think there's a lot of things that are interesting, but one of them is an average journey from the first touch to a B2B deal being won is 192 days.Steffen Hedebrandt:  Yeah. There's nothing as dangerous as a pretty graph.Steffens  go-to-market benchmark 2022 

Every marketer's dream is to be able to track every move of their customers. SegMetric have made that a reality.On this episode of the Garlic Marketing Show, Keith Perhac, the CEO and Founder of SegMetrics, talks about how he and his team saved 80% of their client's leads that could have gone down the drain.What You'll Learn:TO THE RESCUE: How They Saved 80% Of Their Client's LeadsHow to do it: Analyzing How, Where, and When You Messed Up“Marketing is Putting Your Product In Front of the Right People At the RIght Time”The Purpose of the ‘We F***** Up' EmailThe Billboard EffectConnect with Keith:LinkedInTweet with KeithExperience SegmetricsResources:Connect with IanSupercharge your marketing and grow your business with video case stories today!Book a Discovery Call Today with Our ExpertsSubscribe to the YouTube Channel See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

The most common frustration I hear from people boils down to the phrase “I don't know why it's not working.” This isn't verbatim what people say, but that's the gist. They have painstakingly built a series of offers and paid for traffic to see them, but the conversion rates drop off somewhere between there and the point where sales close. Can their funnel be fixed? Absolutely, but not without knowing a critical piece of data. Getting that data that helps fix the suboptimal parts of the funnel is our focus today.  To go through this I'm joined by Keith Perhac, a digital marketing expert and software entrepreneur. After growing up in the states, he headed to Japan to become what's known there as a salaryman. He moved back In 2010 to work with startups and digital marketers looking to grow quickly. He founded SegMetrics, a tool that lets you see revenue from the perspective of each touchpoint in your marketing funnel. Since then, he's appeared on over 35 podcasts & in 2020 published the book we're here to discuss, “Building Marketing Funnels that Convert, a 90 minute guide” When he's not working on SegMetrics, Keith draws and attempts (futilely) to spend more time outdoors. He lives in Portland, Oregon with his wife and two daughters. People/Products/Concepts Mentioned in Show VWO Urchin Tracking Module (utm) parameters, appended to URLs for Google Analytics to assign attribution. Kaizen Keith's company, Segmetrics.io and a short demo of their tool Keith on LinkedIn and Twitter You may also want to check out Gary Amaral's episode on measuring funnel touch points with enterprise B2B with a heavy human sales component For more details, visit https://funnelreboot.com/episode-83-quantifying-your-marketing-funnels-revenue-with-keith-perhac/

Michele Hansen  00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by the website monitoring tool, Oh Dear. We use Oh Dear to keep track of SSL certificates. If an SSL certificate is about to expire, we get an alert beforehand. We have automated processes to renew them, so we use Oh Dear as an extra level of peace of mind. You can sign up for a ten day free trial with no credit card required at OhDear.app. Michele Hansen  00:28Hey, welcome back to Software Social. So today we're doing something kind of fun. We're leaning on the social part of Software Social, and we have invited our friend, Sean Fioritto, to join us today.Sean Fioritto  00:44Hey guys. Thanks for having me.  Colleen Schnettler  00:47Hi Sean. Thanks for being here. Michele Hansen  00:48So, and the reason why we asked Sean, in addition to being a great person, is that Sean wrote a book called Sketching With CSS, and as you all know, I am writing a book and figuring it out. And there is a lot of stuff I haven't figured out, especially when it comes to, like, actually selling the book. Like, I feel like that, I feel like the, writing the book is, like, I feel like I kind of got a handle on that. The whole selling the book thing, like, not so much. Um, so we thought it would be kind of helpful to have Sean come on, since like, he's done this successfully. Colleen Schnettler  021:36So Sean, I would love to start with a little bit of your background with the book. What inspired you to write it? How did you get started? Where did that idea come from?  Sean Fioritto  01:50Yeah, so I wanted to quit my job.  Colleen Schnettler  01:53Don't we all? Michele Hansen  01:55Honest goal. Sean Fioritto  01:56I always wanted to go on my own, be independent, run my own business. That's been a goal for a very long time. So, I tried various things, you know, in my spare time, with limited to no success for years and years before that, and I was just getting sick of, the plan was, you know, I'm like, okay, I have this job. And in my spare time, I'm gonna get something going and then, and that just wasn't working. So I was getting impatient. Anyway, I ended up signing up with Amy Hoy's 30x500 class. This was seven or eight years ago. So, I signed up for that class. Actually, wait, I'm getting my timeline a little mixed up. So, I started reading stuff by Amy Hoy. It's funny, I'd actually bought another book that she wrote, and she used her sort of process for that book. And I bought that for my, for my job earlier. And I was like, oh, this Amy Hoy person is interesting. And so I started reading her blog, and then she has these things she writes called ebombs. You guys are probably familiar with that term. But they're basically content that, it's educational content directed at her target, you know, customer, which she would call her audience. So I was just, she, at that point, she had started 30x500. I think it was actually called a Year of Hustle at that point. And so she had all this content, and I was just devouring it, because I was like, she gets me. She knows my problem, and this is awesome. So I was just reading everything that she could write, that she wrote, and, you know, finding any resource that she'd ever written about, like, what's her process, because she was talking about this mysterious process that she has, she, she would talk about it. And I was able to sort of reverse engineer part of her course, the main thing called Sales Safari. So I'm not, I'm at my job, coasting, doing a half-assed job, spending a lot of time doing Sales Safari, trying to figure out what, what product I should do. Not product, but that's not the way to think about it with Sales Safari, but trying to figure out like, what, who, what audience should I focus on? And what problems do they have, and what's the juiciest problem that makes sense for me to tackle? And then, and she would call them pains, by the way, not, not problems. So what's the juiciest pain that they have, for me, that was like, be the easiest for me to peel off, and, and work on. So I started digging, and it was like, alright, well, what audience makes sense for me? This is kind of the process, and it was like, you know, like web designers, web developers, because I was a web developer. And so like, what are the, you know, audiences that are close to audiences that I'm in is kind of ideal. So I started there, and then I just read and read and read. I probably put like, 80 hours of research time into that process.  Colleen Schnettler  05:05Wow. Michele Hansen  05:06That's a lot. Sean Fioritto  05:06Of just reading and reading and reading and reading, and taking notes. And really understanding and whittling down and figuring out my audience, and figuring out, so the thinking, the benefit of that amount of time spent deliberately going through a process like that is that at some point, I became so in-tune with the audience that I could identify, and this is gonna pay off for you, Michele, this, this little story, because this feeds into like, how do you sell it. At some point, it meant that I could tell when a thing that I was, like a piece of content marketing that I was working on, was going to resonate very strongly with my audience and be worth the effort, if that makes sense. And it didn't really take much. Like, after I got done with that much amount of research, it was sort of, like, pretty trivial for me to come up with ideas for content that I could write that I knew people were gonna just eat up. And so that's, that's how I started building my, building my mailing list. And then that's how I eventually, Colleen, to your question, I came up with Sketching With CSS, which it was a solution to a pain point that I'd identified in my audience, which at that point was web designers. Colleen Schnettler  06:37How big did your mailing list grow? Sean Fioritto  06:39I have 20,000 people on my mail list. Colleen Schnettler  06:4120,000? Michele Hansen  06:42Holy guacamole.  Sean Fioritto  06:46Yeah. So like I said, I got really good. No, no, no. Michele Hansen  06:51I've got like, 200 people on my mailing list, or like, 220. And like, for context, that's like, 200 more people than I ever expected to have on the mailing list, and hearing, like, 20,000 feels very far from, from 200. Sean Fioritto  07:10Yeah, well, let me say something that will hopefully be more reassuring. The, Amy and Alex, for example, they've been running 30x500, for years, and I think their mailing list is just now approximating, like 20,000 or so. And like, the, they have been making so much money with that course with a significantly smaller mailing list. And that's a really, like, high value product, too. So anyway, if it makes you feel any better, I really think they only have like, a couple 1000 people on their mailing list for a long time. And then, for me, I launched pre-sales of my book, at that point, my, I think I only had, boy, I used to, I used to have this memorized. But like, it's been so long now. But I think I only had like, it was less than 2000 I think. I think. So, and even then, I don't think you need that. I know people that have launched with much smaller lists than that, and, and it was fine. Because the people that are on your list now guarantee it, your, will be very interested in, in buying the book. You know, that'd be like a low, low barrier to entry, assuming like, your mailing list is one of the ways that you're thinking of selling the book. Michele Hansen  08:26Yeah, I guess. That's not a good answer. But like, I, I, I actually, I admit, I'm a little bit like, wary to kind of hit it too hard. Like, I would probably send out like, like, if I did a pre-sale, which I guess I should. Actually, I had someone a couple days ago, who has been reading the drafts, who actually I think is also a 30x500 student in the past, say that they wanted to, like, pre-buy the book and asked me how to do it. And I was like, that's a great question. I will figure that out. And like, so maybe do that, and then maybe one more when, like, the book comes out? Um, yeah, cuz, so I've been thinking about the newsletter as a way to draft the book because I find writing an email to be a lot easier than, like, staring at a blank cursor just, you know, blinking at me. And I guess I haven't really, like, and like, people signed up for it to read the draft of the book, so I guess I almost feel bad like, using it for sales too much. Like you know, I want to let people know that the book exists, but like, I don't want to. I don't know, does that. Sean Fioritto  09:45So, it's very considerate of you to think about that. Michele Hansen  09:52Another way of saying that another, also a way to not make any money off of this. Sean Fioritto  09:57Well, yeah, that, but also, it's kind of inconsiderate of you to not be thinking about all the people that really, really, really want to buy it and also would like to read anything that you're writing right now. Like, you're just completely leaving them out there to dry. And there are definitely people like that on your mailing list. So, they're like, there's like, some people on your mailing list are not going to be interested in your content if you're sending it too much, or, or just in general, really lightly interested in what you're writing about, or mistakenly signed up for your mailing list, which at this point, you probably don't have that problem. So like, to some extent, that's always the case, and it used to bother me a lot. I would send an email, and sales emails especially would result in bigger unsubscribes after every email, because you know, your little email tool tells you like, can, you know, so nice of it to tell you like, this many people unsubscribed after you sent this email. And it's always a big jump after like, a sales email. That used to bother me a lot. But then I started, kind of watching even my own behavior, and you probably do the same, and you probably like, look forward to some emails from some people that hit your inbox from some newsletters that you're looking forward to, and you'd very much like them to send you more. And then there's other people where you're like, well, I signed up for that, like, a couple years ago, and I just am not thinking about that anymore. And I need, like, to like, whittle down my content. So you unsubscribe. So then you become that unsubscribe number on the other end of the person sending the email, but like, you weren't annoyed, you didn't mind. It was just like, time to move on. And that's usually the case. So I think people can just unsubscribe as long as it's easy. I would literally put it at the top of my emails. So like, because I would send emails very infrequently. I was not disciplined about that. And I still don't think that that's a problem. But the, but because I sent them infrequently I put at the top like, hey, you know, you signed up for this, because you probably read this thing I wrote. You weren't interested in the book, whatever, if this is not for you anymore, just unsubscribe, like, first thing. So that always made me feel better about sending emails. And also, I don't know, I think that's the right thing to do so people just know, like upfront, that you know, oh, okay, there's the easy to find unsubscribe button when they're done. And then that's fine. Michele Hansen  12:26We did that for Geocodio once, like, I want to say it was like a year or two ago, and our lists had been like, super disorganized. And like I think we had, we were sending stuff like, we send like one or two marketing emails a year from MailChimp. And then we also had Intercom, and those things didn't sync up. And so like, sometimes people would unsubscribe in intercom and then like, not be unsubscribed in MailChimp, or like vice versa. And then, since we didn't send a lot of email, we used MailChimp's pay as you go. And then they just like, shut down their page and go option a couple of years ago, even though we had a ton of credit, which was a little annoying. And, and then, so like, the next time, and I think we migrated over to Mailcoach. And so the next time we send out an email, we actually like for some reason, we were like, there's probably a lot of people on this who have meant to unsubscribe. And so at the very top of the next email, we put an unsubscribe link and we also put a link to delete their account. And like, a bunch of people did it, but then our number of people who were unsubscribing later on like, went like, way down. So it was like, ripping off the band aid basically. Sean Fioritto  13:36Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think like, I don't know, when people unsubscribe from Geocodio, at this point, it doesn't like, break your heart anymore, I'm guessing. Right?  Michele Hansen  13:45No, I mean, we're like, we're kind of like jumping into something that has been very much on my mind, but I hadn't been wanting to admit that it was there and just trying to like, pretend that it's not there, which is all the dealing with rejection around either, you know, people being mad that they were being sold to or negative reviews. And I like, you know, it sounds like you kind of have a process for, like, accepting those feelings.  Sean Fioritto  14:19It used to bother me a lot.  Michele Hansen  14:22Like, yeah. Sean Fioritto  14:24Yeah, it used to bother me a lot. There are two things that I hated. I hated frontpage Hacker News, and I hated getting angry emails.  Michele Hansen  14:33Oh.  Sean Fioritto  14:35I also got creepy, tons of creepy emails. Once you get, like, past a certain threshold and the number of subscribers you have, the creepiness factor increases. Yeah. Yeah. But the, but I got used to all of that. I just realized, like, there's just some percentage of people that are just angry right now or whatever, like, whatever they're going through. And I know that, like, I am very carefully crafting things such that the most, most of my content is not self-serving, most of it is directly a result of research that tells me that this is a problem that people are having, and now I'm helping you. So I'm like, I never feel bad about those, and then even the sales emails, I started to not feel bad about those, too, because I'm like, this is also a thing that's helping you. But that took a while to get to. I mean, honestly, it did. And it got worse when it became my only source of income, which added extra, extra feelings. But yeah, there's a lot of feelings to like, get through. And now I have just developed more of a thick skin, you know. Like, I'm not terrified of having a super popular article anymore, or, you know, stuff like that. That doesn't, that doesn't bother me anymore. I think it just came with time, just like with you and Geocodio. I mean, I'm sure you are used to like, some fluctuations of revenue, which probably bothered you a lot at the beginning, but now, not so much. I mean, I'm just, I'm guessing, but that seems, you know, I'm sure there's some things they're that you've got a thick skin about now. Michele Hansen  16:12Oh, my gosh. I mean, for years, every time a plan downgrade came through, like every time it was like a punch in the gut. Like, and yeah, I think now that I, I guess I trust the revenue more, I'm not as impacted by it. It's more like, oh, I wonder, like, why that was. Like, did their project end, or like, you know, like, what happened? But yeah, in the beginning, especially when it was first our like, when it, when it became my, like, full time income. I mean, as, as you said, like, that is really painful. Like, I'm curious, like, so you,  so like, when did you start writing the book? Sean Fioritto  1705Let me think, like, like the year, or a timing, like, in terms of the timeline?  Michele Hansen  17:12Whichever one you want to go with.  Sean Fioritto  17:15Yeah, I can't remember the year cuz it was a while ago. It was like, eight years ago.  Michele Hansen  17:19Oh, wow. Okay. So you started, Sean Fioritto  17:22I think it was 2013 is when I started. Yeah. Michele Hansen  17:24You did the, sounds like you did 30x500 first, right? Sean Fioritto  17:30Yeah, I had the, I had started writing the book before 30x500. But like I said, I was ,I was following her process already at sort of reverse engineered it. And then I felt like I just owed her the money for the, for the course. So, plus I wanted to meet her, so. Michele Hansen  17:44Yeah, so you started like, the research process basically, like, like 30x500 like, was only one part of your, like, research. Like, cuz you said you had sort of, you had figured out what her process was based on the blog posts and whatnot before you took the course. Yeah. Sean Fioritto  18:00Yeah.  Michele Hansen  18:01Okay. Sean Fioritto  18:02Yeah, and at that point, I had already generated the research I needed to see, to choose Sketching With CSS as a, as a product. I pretty much had, I think I had a landing page. I hadn't done pre-sales yet, but I was, I was gearing up for that. Michele Hansen  18:17You are so organized. Colleen Schnettler  18:19Michele, do you have a landing page?  Michele Hansen  18:22There is a website.  Colleen Schnettler  18:24Okay, I didn't know. Michele Hansen  18:26I haven't told anyone about it because I talk about,  Colleen Schnettler  18:29Your secret website. Michele Hansen  18:30I actually have two. I thought of the domain name, or like, the name for it in the shower, and then I like, immediately like, ran for the computer to see if it was available. And I actually bought two, and then I think we put, like, a book, oh my god, I just typed it wrong. Colleen Schnettler  18:55This is the part where you tell us what it is.  Michele Hansen  18:57There's nothing on it, and actually, if I say it now then we have to have something on it by, Colleen Schnettler  19:01Well, there's no way to pressurize a situation than to tell us right now. Michele Hansen  19:06So okay, it is DeployEmpathy.com. Okay, okay, crap, now I have it out. I don't even know how I'm going to sell it. Okay. So um, and I think I have another one, too. But yeah, we have like, a very basic like, WordPress template on it. Like, it's not, it's not, okay. While I was trying to figure it, so like, people keep asking me like, oh, like, when's your book coming out? And I'm like, I have no idea. I have never done this before. I don't know what steps are ahead of me. So, okay, so you started writing the book while you were doing research concurrently, and then how, and you were also, Sean Fioritto  19:48Oh, sorry, there's two types of research.  Michele Hansen  19:50Okay. Sean Fioritto  19:51So, we could clarify that. There was my audience research and understanding the pain that I was solving, and then there's the research about the book. I didn't have to do as much research about the book. I mean, I already, like, the type of book I ended up writing, I already had, you know, the expertise I needed to write that book. So yeah, I was, audience research was already done by the time I was writing Sketching With CSS. So I wasn't doing research like that while writing the book. Michele Hansen  20:16Okay. And then you also had the landing page up, and you started building your list while you were doing this research and writing phase. Okay, so how long did it take you from, like, the time that you had the idea for the book to when people could, like, buy and download the book, like, just like, the big picture? Like, how long did that process take you? Sean Fioritto  20:45Well, I mean, keep in mind, that ton of the work was while I was still full time working, in theory. Michele Hansen  20:56I mean, I guess I am, too, right? Like, this is not my full time thing. Sean Fioritto  21:00Yeah, but I think like, from, from, from research to launch, like, book is done, it was like, in the four to six month range. Michele Hansen  21:14Okay. Okay. So I think I started at like, the end of February with the newsletter, and it's May, so that's like, yeah. I do feel like I'm doing a little bit of, I think what we have termed Colleen does, of putzing in the code garden, rather than selling things or doing marketing or whatnot. And I am totally doing that with my manuscript, I guess you could call it. Sounds so fancy. And just like, moving commas around and like, totally procrastinating on making images for it, like totally, totally procrastinating on that. Okay, so it took you like, four to six months to get to that point.  Sean Fioritto  21:59Yeah, there was a, there was a launch in between there. Michele Hansen  22:02So when was the like, so was your pre-sale your launch? Or like, how does that work?  Sean Fioritto  22:08You could do lots of launches.  Michele Hansen  22:11This is like, the part that is like, just sort of like, you know, in my head, it's like step one, write book, like, step two of question, question question, and step three, profit. Like that's sort of where I am right now. Sean Fioritto  22:24I feel like you're already doing most of the things that I would do. The, the one thing, so alright. So you're, you're working in public, so you're getting interest via Twitter. You're writing to your mailing list. You're doing the right thing, which is writing content for your book that, you know, is also useful to your mailing list, like, independently. Like, like getting double bang for your buck is smart when you're doing this kind of business. So you're keeping your list warm enough. People are, you're building anticipation, people are telling you you're building anticipation, because they're like, hey, when do I get to buy this book? So, you know, you're basically doing all the things. As, you know, from from my perspective, looking in, it seems like you're just accidentally or intuitively doing the right, doing the right stuff. The thing that's missing between like, what you are doing and what I did is probably, I would press pause on book writing and do specific content marketing things just to build my mailing list. Michele Hansen  23:37But I love putzing in the code garden.  Sean Fioritto  23:39And I'm not, I'm not, sorry, I didn't mean to say that as like, you should do that. That's what I would, as in like, I was doing that. And I don't know, Michele Hansen  23:48And you wrote, like, a successful book and sold it, and it was your full time job for a period of time. So you're kind of here because you're good at this and because I need to be told these things. Sean Fioritto  23:59Right. Well, I'm just saying what I did. But it's, it's really ultimately you get to pick and choose what you do. The, you know, I actually happen to very much enjoy the process of coming up with content that I knew would be popular and writing it and sharing it everywhere and doing all that stuff. And also, I knew I needed to because I was going to try and make this my full time living, so I'm like, I need more people on my mailing list. So that was pretty important to me based on the goals I was trying to achieve. The, the other thing is though, like, even with a small mailing list, your book as the, a lot of book sales are gonna come from word of mouth. Like, I sort of forced the book onto the scene. But like, it's not a, the Sketching With CSS is not like a, while the marketing theme is, like, the marketing message at the time, it doesn't connect anymore because  the world has moved on from that phase of web development. But like, while people could read the marketing, the landing page and connect really strongly, and, you know, be interested in the book, the book didn't really lend itself well to word of mouth, because it's not like, it was not like a, oh, you should read this, like, it's this lightweight, like reading recommendation. It's got to be, you've got to be like, ready to commit to learning a bunch of code. So it's like, there's like, a smaller group of people at any given time that are like, at that point, does that make sense? Versus your book, it's, it seems like, it's like a higher level of value, like, it's a more abstract, then like, here are the, learn this code. Here's how to type in Git commands, here's how to do that. You know, like, I was really like, down at the, like, here's what you're gonna be doing day to day in your job. And you're giving them the same message, but like, in a way that can be, that is at like, a higher level, it's maybe easier to read, you know, in your spare time. It's like a business book, has the same qualities of, like, successful business books. So, I think that you may not have to do any of the content marketing stuff that I was doing is what I'm getting at, because, like, I can already tell, I'm ready to read your book, and I'm ready to recommend it to people, because it does it solve, like, a question that people have all the time, and a problem people have, and they're like, oh, I wish I knew how to, you know, talk to my customers more effectively, or understand, you know, the types of customers that are gonna be interested my products, or what problems they're having, etc, etc, right? Customer research, that kind of thing. That is a topic of conversation that comes up a lot in my communities that I hang out in, and so, you know, your book’s gonna be like, at-hand for me to recommend. That's, that's what I suspect. That's my, that's my theory for your book. Michele Hansen  27:00Yeah, I guess, I mean, there's parts of it, definitely.  Sean Fioritto  27:02It's also got a catchy name.  Michele Hansen  27:04Hey, I thought of it in the shower, and then I ran to register the domain, which is exactly what you are supposed to do when you have a good idea for something right? Like, this is the process. Colleen Schnettler  27:13Definitely. Michele Hansen  27:13Like,  Sean Fioritto  27:14You already had a book though, so it's different. You're like, I'm gonna write this book called Deploying Empathy. And you already, like, wrote it. So I think you're good to go. Michele Hansen  27:20Yeah, actually I didn't have a name for a while. Okay, so, so something else I have, like, a question on, which you kind of just sort of touched on with that about, like, super practical elements. So some, some of it is you can, you can definitely sit down and, and you could probably read it in a sitting or two. But then there's, there's the stuff that's more like a toolbox with all of the different scripts, which, by the way earlier, when you were saying like finding the type of content that people are really hungry for like, that, like, those scripts are the thing that people are the most excited about. The problem is, there's only like, so many sort of general scenarios. So I've basically written the main ones, but, so something I noticed with your site, which is SketchingWithCSS.com, just for everybody's reference, so you have the book plus code, which is like, your basic option for $39. And then you have one with the video package for 99. And then you have another one with more stuff for 249. And then there's one with like, all the things for your team for 499. And so, something that people have asked me for is like, like, there's the book piece, and then there's also, people want to be able to easily replicate the scripts so that they can then like, use them to build their own scripts off of it, and like, modify them and whatnot. So people have said, like, well, that could be like a Notion Template, like, bundle that it's sold with, or Google Docs or, or whatever. And so I've been like, kind of like, how do you sell the book with this like, other bundle? And like, can you also do that, like if you sell like a physical book to like, if I did it through Amazon, like, could I also sell a Notion Template bundle or something? Like, I just, I'm kind of, that sort of like, something that's on my mind is like, I'm not really sure how to approach that. And I'm wondering if you could kind of like, talk through your approach to creating like, different tiers, and what you provided at those different tears.  Sean Fioritto  29:33Mm hmm. Right. So, at the time, I know, I have a more sophisticated thought process about it now, but the, when I did the initial set of tiers, it was because Nathan Barry told me that I should have three tears because it tripled his revenue. So I was like, oh, okay.  Michele Hansen  29:53I mean, that's a good reason.  Sean Fioritto  29:55Like, we just happened to be at the bacon biz. That was the other person that I was, I bought his book. So here's the thing I always do, I would buy people's books that way I could email them. Michele Hansen  30:08Is that a thing? Like, if you buy someone's book, like, do you have a license to email them? Sean Fioritto  30:13Well, you get one. You get one email. And as long as it's, you know, not creepy. That's, that's the main thing. But yeah. So we had a bake in this conference in real life, and then, yeah, that's what he, that's what, he told me that I was like, oh, yeah. Okay. I think Patrick McKenzie was there, too, and he said something similar. So I was like, oh, because they did a landing page tear down for me at that conference. That's right.  Michele Hansen  30:36Wow. Nice. Sean Fioritto  30:37Yeah. So anyway, so I did the, I did that, because somebody told me to. And in fact, it's true. Like, if I hadn't done that, you could just see like, the way the purchases ended up that like, that absolutely almost tripled my revenue. So,  Michele Hansen  30:53Oh, wow. Yeah. Sean Fioritto  30:54Which is a big deal for books, because it's not like, yeah, anyway. The, the, the way, the way you were talking about it, though, because there's another way to think about it. I was thinking about in tiers with the book, but another way to think about it is in terms of a product funnel. So your, your book could be super cheap, and it is the entry point into your product, your little product universe. Because like, you're, what you're doing is naturally, because you're literally writing a book about this, listening to your customers and understanding that they have other like, you're really understanding what their, their pain is, and you see that there's different ways that you could solve it for them, right? Those things as a product. So you could bundle that stuff into your book, you could create tiers, like I did. And maybe it does make sense, we talk about this more, but like there's, there's, there's different ways to do tiers with books that, that makes sense, that aren't exactly what I did. But also, like what you're describing is basically different courses. So let's, so, like, people that run these info product businesses, like, what you end up with is like, you've got this world of courses, and you've got this world of content. And people come in from like, search, you know, or whatever channel that you've worked on, usually it's like an SEO channel, like through your content. And then they enter your automated marketing system. And then the first thing they do is buy probably your cheapest thing, your book, and then you're moving them on to the next level into your email marketing system to get them to start looking at, you know, your course, which is like a more in-depth version of the book, or whatever. So anyway, I'm just sort of sketching out, like how, how these content marketing businesses tend to work. So you kind of end up in their little universe and then you just get bounced around all their various email automation. If you've been in anybody's like, any internet famous person's little, like, email world, you'd probably notice eventually, if you're there for long enough, like, I already got that email. And so anyway, so let's there's like a different way of looking at it. You don't have to do tiers. You could just sell your book, you know, digital version, here's the hardback version, you make it cheap, and then, you know, lots of people, lots of people read it. And then you, turns out that this is still really interesting to you, you still like solving people's problems and you're like, you know what, like, I should release like, some recordings of customer interviews as like, examples or whatever, you know, and then you peel that off into a different product and you sell that, and slowly you build up this machine, basically. Also the guy to talk to would be Keith Perhac, who's in our group, too. Michele Hansen  33:51Oh, yeah, I should totally talk to Keith.  Colleen Schnettler  33:53Did he write a book? Sean Fioritto  33:55Yeah, he did but also his, his job before running SegMetrics was with the internet famous person that you guys know of that ran these huge content marketing programs and had this whole product funnel thing and all this stuff that I was talking about. So Keith is like, expert on that topic. Michele Hansen  34:15I guess I don't know if I want to go that direction just now because I do, you know, I do have a job. Um, so I'm, yeah.  Sean Fioritto  34:28You could just be like Amy.  Michele Hansen  34:33So, I, yeah, so I guess I have to think about that, and thinking about like, like, where to price it and those bundles and whatnot. Actually, I have another super like, mechanical question. So, between the time you announced the pre-order, and when you, like, people could actually like, to like, first of all, like, what was the incentive for somebody to pre-order? And then, what was the time from like, when you announced the pre-order to when you like, people could actually get it? Like, how far in advance do you do a pre-order? And what do you like, do you have to give people something? Sean Fioritto  35:10Yeah, I can't, I actually can't remember. I can't remember, what did I do? I did a pre-order. I can't even remember if I gave him the book or not. I don't think you have to. Some people just buy it ready to go. I think I, I probably did give ‘em like, here's everything I got so far, and it's gonna change, but, you know, here's that. Here's what I've got. And, you know, whatever version, like, people don't care if it's like, not even formatted or, you know, give me everything you got. Because the people that are going to do that are ready to just devour it. And then also, some of them might be like, I'm not wanting to, I don't want it right now, but I had a discount, right? So there's like, the pre-order, it's like a little bit cheaper to buy it now. Because I knew I was going to be selling it at like, as, like, a $40 product. So the discount, I think I sold it initially for pre-orders for like, 29 bucks, or maybe less even. Yeah, maybe like 20 bucks or something like that. Michele Hansen  36:08Okay, and it's 30 now. Colleen Schnettler  36:11Yeah, it probably makes sense for you, as someone who, I'm using it and referencing it, even though it's not done, because those scripts, like you were saying, are so valuable to people.  Michele Hansen  36:20Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess I sort of like, feel like everybody already has everything. I mean, reality like, they, they don't because everything has been changed so much. But I guess I need to like, set it up, too. Like, I need to decide on a platform to use to actually sell it.  Sean Fioritto  36:42Oh, I didn't do that at first.  Michele Hansen  36:45Okay. So did you just use Stripe? Sean Fioritto  36:47I think I used PayPal. I was literally like, here's my email, send PayPal money there. And then I sent it to ‘em. Michele Hansen  36:55How did you deal with that and sales tax and stuff?  Sean Fioritto  36:57I don't think that existed. But also I would have just ignored it. Michele Hansen  37:03Okay, yeah, I guess I'm in the EU, so I kind of can't. Sean Fioritto  37:08It's the wild west out here. Michele Hansen  37:12'Murica. Sean Fioritto  37:15No, I had a really bad tax bill the first year because I ignored all of that stuff.  Michele Hansen  37:19Oh, okay, so you're not advising. This is not financial advice.  Sean Fioritto  37:26I'm just saying what I did. I'm not saying you should do that.  Michele Hansen  37:30This may or may not be good advice, what you are hearing, just so you know. All of this may be bad advice. Okay, so I basically, Sean Fioritto  37:39I got audited, too, actually. I forgot about that. So don't, yeah, definitely don't do that. Being audited is not as bad as it sounds, it turns out but that's, anyway, that's a different story. Michele Hansen  38:55I was, I feel like I should do a, like a talk hear, hear, and be like, well, on that massive disappointment, thank you and good evening. Um, so okay. So you know, I feel, see, I feel like I look at you and you're like, you, like, have your stuff together about selling a book. And the fact that you had all like, you had these fears about, like, getting rejected by it, and like, put all this into it, and you did it without having done it before. And, you know, made mistakes, looking back, that you are now helping me not replicate. Um, I feel, I feel a little, I feel a little better about this. And also, I guess I have a deadline now, which is five days from now to have the website functional. So, that's fun.  Colleen Schnettler  38:51You're welcome. I'm here for you, Michele. Just push you over the cliff. Michele Hansen  38:56Like, copy paste content into it, right? Um, I noticed actually that Sean, like, your site has a ton of testimonials, and that's something I have been sort of tepidly starting to collect. Like, I guess I'm a little bit afraid to, like, ask people for testimonials. But I've gotten a couple. Sean Fioritto  39:17So what you do is you write them the testimonial, then you email them and you say can I use this as your testimonial? And then they say yes, and then you put it on your page. Michele Hansen  39:25That's lower friction than what I've been asking for. Um, but, but that makes sense. Sean Fioritto  39:32I mean, I would also peel out, so they said something good in an email and I'd copy it and then change it so it sounded better, and then, can I use this as a testimonial?  Michele Hansen  39:39Yeah. Yeah.  Sean Fioritto  39:42I mean, when I say sounds better, I mean, just like copy edit, right? Michele Hansen  39:45I mean, I guess, like, we do that with Geocodio. And I think, like, Colleen and I have talked about this how, I guess I've like, gotten over all of these fears with Geocodio, and I'm so much more confident with it. And maybe it's because it doesn't have my name, like, directly on it, or it's just been around for like seven and a half years now. Versus this, I'm like, I'm so much more unsure. Like,  Sean Fioritto  40:07You haven't done this in a long time.  Michele Hansen  40:08I never have written a book. Sean Fioritto  40:12Well, whatever. Like, you haven't done a launch. Because you can launch anything. You could have launched Geocodio. Michele Hansen  40:18Yeah. Sean Fioritto  40:18You could've launched it this way, too. But you just haven't done that before. And it's weird, launch is weird because launch is like, everybody, pay attention to me now.  Michele Hansen  40:29Yeah, I'm just super uncomfortable with that.  Sean Fioritto  40:33Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's what it feels like. But then when I realized it was, if you're doing it, right, it's not that. It feels like it, but you're not actually making it about you. It's about them. And then for like, a couple days, you know, you gotta be like, here's the product, you can buy it, and you got to be like sending more emails than you normally. Lots of people will unsubscribe. But like I said, those people are not subscribing. Some of them probably hate you, but you know, most of them are probably just unsubscribing because like, they're, turns out, they weren't interested now that they actually see what it is. They're like, oh, no, that's not what I was thinking it was, or whatever. You get used to it, like, you definitely get used to it. I did it for a couple products. And over time, I just didn't care anymore. Like, I absolutely felt like I was doing a good for people. And I know that I was because I didn't get nearly as much. I think that some of my friends who were in that space would tell me that I needed to go harder, you know, like a little more salesy than I was. But anyway, the point is, Michele Hansen  41:39The thing is, like, I'm not like, I'm not averse to marketing, I think, I mean, this is something that like, we were actually talking about the other day, like people, like technical people being averse to like, sales and marketing and like, like, I have written the book with this in mind that like, hopefully, like, people will recommend it, like, like an audience of the book is like product leaders and marketing leaders who need to teach their teams how to do this. And so like, that's an audience I'm writing for because if they then they have like, buy the book for like five people, and then if they get a new job, or promotion, or whatever, in two years, and they need to teach the team like their new team how to do it again. Um, and so like, that is like, comfortable for me. But yeah, I guess as you were saying, like, hitting the sales hard is, is a little bit uncomfortable. And I guess I will just have to deal with a couple of days of like, that being awkward and like, doing the whole, like, you know, I don't know, like home shopping network style, like, and here's this book, and you can have it for the low, low price of $29. Plus, all of these bundles. Like, Sean Fioritto  42:43So, the thing that, okay, maybe this will help you, but they would help, it helped me, is I just focus on, on the, on the people that are, on your audience, and like your copy and everything is about them. It's about you. You're using, I know you're doing this, right, so you're gonna use the word you in your copy. Like, you never use the word I in your copy, right? So everything is about them. You've done all this research, you know, them, you know, you know, the problems they're facing, you know the pains they're having. And so you could just keep talking about that, talking about that. Launch, then, is then just like, more of those types of emails, like, a higher cadence than you're used to, which is still just about them. And then you're hitting them with like, okay, and now it's here. Like, you're, the whole time you're telling them it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. And then now it's here, here's what's in it, and you're gonna have these emails that just say, here's everything that's in it, and then here's questions that people might have, email that follows up, and then hey, this is gonna end in like a certain amount of time, follow up and then you got one hour left, you know, email. So you do these, you do this sequence of emails, but like, you have to remember when you're sending those that are the most uncomfortable that some people are really, really excited, and if you don't send them that stuff, they won't buy it and they'll, they'll regret it. Like, there's some people that genuinely are very excited and super thrilled to get those emails. Michele Hansen  44:03Can I run a, I have like, a tagline, or not like, a headline I have been throwing around in my head. Can I run it past you?  Sean Fioritto  44:12Yeah. For an article?  Michele Hansen  44:13No, for the book, but like, so like, this would be the like, main headline on the site. Sean Fioritto  44:18Yeah, yeah.  Michele Hansen  44:21Your time is too valuable to spend it building things people don't want.  Sean Fioritto  44:27Perfect. I mean, it's a little wordy, but yeah, like, the concept is perfect. Michele Hansen  44:32I will work on the wordiness. Sean Fioritto  44:36I mean, it's really, it's good, though. That's perfect.  Michele Hansen  44:38It's good. I guess it's good enough, right? It's good enough for me to slap a site together in the next, checks watch, five days, and, and get that going. Sean Fioritto  44:50Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, you could roll with that as an H2 on a landing page. Easy. Yeah. That would be fine the way it is. Michele Hansen  44:57Cool. Second image of the book. All right. There's all this stuff I'll have to do, but I guess I'll just be working away at this. Sean Fioritto  45:04You know what would be fun for you? I have an archived version of like, my old initial website, if you go to, oh, it doesn't work anymore. Michele Hansen  45:15Can I look it up on Internet Archive? Or it's like, Sean Fioritto  45:19Probably you can, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't. I used to have it just up so that I could, you could go to the URL. But yeah, so you'd have to go through the Internet Archive. But I had, and I did a, I did a write up on the landing page tear down and discussed screenshots from the, from the old version. It was truly, truly awful. But I sold $7,000 worth of book through it. So, Michele Hansen  45:40Can I ask you how much you sold overall? Do you reveal that? Sean Fioritto  45:44Yeah, yeah, of course. So it's actually hard to know because the, well, because as I've revealed I'm not fantastic about keeping track of my finances, or I wasn't then, but the, the book, through its lifespan, has made about $150,000.  Michele Hansen  46:06Whoa.  Sean Fioritto  46:07And most of that was the first two years because I was really, really actively pushing it. And then it just sort of, like, continued to make sales in dribs and drabs, and now it makes, probably, I don't know, I think I sold $1,000 worth of it last year, which makes sense, because it's pretty out of date at this point. Michele Hansen  46:28That'd be interesting to know why people are still buying it. Sean Fioritto  46:32Well, because the concept of designing in a browser is still something that people, you know, talk about from time to time. Should designers write code, or should they be using Figma, or at the time, you know, Sketch or Photoshop, I think all my copy is about Photoshop. So, you know, so like, I think that that concept is still valid. My copy is a little dated, the, the tech inside the book is a little, little dated at this point, though, still useful. So yeah, I think that is just the, so that was one of the things that I learned for content marketing was the, so if you want something to be really like, a really big hit, and to sort of like, make the rounds on the internet, you know, just those articles, it's sometimes just like, everybody's reading. The key to those is there has to be, well, there's like three rules. But like, one of the rules is, it has to be something everybody's talking about right now. And so at the time, everyone was talking about should we design in the browser? That was a big point of conversation. I would say now, like a similar level of conversation would be people talking about how much they hate single page apps, like in the Ruby on Rails community and trying to like, get off of that, right. So like, if you wrote a book about building single page app equivalents in Hotwire or something like that, that would probably resonate really, really well with that community right now. And you'd get a lot of free buzz when it's, people are already talking about it. So that's the problem. I think that that's why, like, hardly anybody's buying it now. But still, people are talking about that. So you get like, a little bit. And then also, I have all these marketing automated things that are still running. So like, I have some content that I accidentally wrote that has a lot of Google traffic, right? Like, I didn't accidentally write it, but I accidentally, like, did some search engine optimization on it. And so I get quite a bit of traffic from those pages, and then they end up signing up for, like, my tutorial things. And then they're in my little email automation thing that I set up, and eventually they get a pitch and then they, and then they buy. So there's some trickle down of that. Michele Hansen  48:50That makes sense. So, I guess, and this will be my last question. Um, is there anything else I should know about selling a book? Sean Fioritto  49:02Yeah, you don't have to do any of the things that I said, like. Like, well I think, I think you're already like doing all the right things. I was pushing really hard to make it my business. And so that, and frankly, once it got to the point where it was my business, that was a distraction for me. It made it hard, harder for me to stay relaxed and focused on doing the things that were the best for my customers, like, once money became this, like concern. So to me, you have this advantage of like, you don't have to, you don't have to worry about that. Like, each one of the things that I did, like it feels like you should bone up a little bit on how to do a launch, though that's not too difficult. You don't have to do like, the greatest job ever, and you maybe even already know how to do that to some extent. But other than that, I don't know, like 200 people on the mailing list, probably enough already. And you'll get more as people are more and more interested. And, you know, do you have an email subscribe on any of your content at all that you've written? Michele Hansen  50:16So it's all in review, so I think it all has a subscribe link at the bottom.  Sean Fioritto  50:22Perfect. Michele Hansen  50:23I think I have one on Twitter, like, on my pinned tweet is a subscription to the newsletter. Sean Fioritto  50:30Yeah, yeah. Cuz like, by the time I was doing it full time, I mean, the number of, I was doing so many other things that we didn't even talk about, for marketing, which it's like, we don't, we don't even need to go there. Because you don't, you don't need to do any of that stuff. I think you're doing everything right. And I would think carefully about, like, what your goals are with the book, and, for both you, you and for your customers, and then kind of size it right size it accordingly. And don't feel guilty about not doing all the right marketing things, because the right marketing things, just as long as you're focused on your audience and the people that are going to be reading your book, you're doing the right thing. Michele Hansen  51:13Hmm. Well, thank you for that, like, boost of encouragement.  Sean Fioritto  51:19You're welcome.  Michele Hansen  51:21I guess to wrap up, we should mention, by the way, that you have your own show. And you're actually getting something off the ground right now. Do you want to talk about that for a second? Sean Fioritto  51:34Yeah. So my friend Aaron Francis and I, we have a company called Hammerstone, that's at Hammerstone.dev. Our podcast is, is linked to there on the home page. We have, like you guys, it's kind of like a ride along podcast, and we just do our weekly check in we record it as a, as a podcast. And what we're working on is a drop in component for Laravel. The component allows you, allows your users to build, dynamically build queries, which they can, you could then use to display reports, etc. to them. Yeah, so that's, that's our new thing that we're working on. That's a new thing for me. I should probably have a whole other podcast and invite you on, ask you about how I should be marketing my software business. Michele Hansen  52:30So by the way, so, the podcast is really good. We finished it on a road trip a couple of months ago, and you should totally start at the beginning because, like so, so yes, like, the software part is interesting. But there's this whole other element that Aaron's wife is pregnant with multiples. And the podcast started in like, December, right?  Sean Fioritto  52:52Yeah.  Michele Hansen  52:53So, and she was due in April. And so there's this like, whole, like, tension of it of like, oh, my god, like, are they gonna get to launch stuff before, like, Aaron goes from being not a parent to the parent of multiple children overnight? Like, is it like, is it gonna happen? And I found myself as I was listening, I was like, oh, my god, like, like, it really added this element of suspense that I have not felt while listening to another podcast, and it made it very enjoyable. Sean Fioritto  53:24You know what's frustrating. I just realized your audience actually overlaps with the audience of my product. And I just did a horrible job of pitching it. I was like, I could just sort of half-ass explain it here. But, Michele Hansen  53:34All you Laravel people, like, just check it out.  Sean Fioritto  53:37Yeah, that's good.  Michele Hansen  53:40Just take my word for it. This has been really fun, Sean. Thank you so much for coming on.  Sean Fioritto  53:50You're welcome.  Michele Hansen  53:51I really appreciate all of your advice. And I, I don't know what you call the, the anti-advice. You know, don't ignore taxes. And encouragement and perspective, that really means a lot to me.  Sean Fioritto  54:08You're welcome. Thanks for having me on.  Michele Hansen  54:11This is awesome. So if you guys liked this episode, please leave us a review on iTunes. Or let us know that you listened on Twitter, and we'll talk to you next week.

Sales is right, some of your leads are worthless, but others are worth-more.   In this episode of the If You Market podcast Keith Perhac gets out the lead measuring tape and shows us how to identify your best and worst lead sources and a adjust appropriately.  It's all about identifying and maximizing the channels and metrics that are giving you the best results.  Keith is the host of the podcast Data Beats Opinion and founder of SegMetrics, which he built from his own frustrations when trying to track and measure leads. 

In this episode, Rob talks with the founder of SegMetrics, Keith Perhac. SegMetrics is a SaaS product that helps users get clarity on where their leads come from, how they act, and how much their marketing is worth. We dive into the difference between SegMetrics and other options for attributing sales and revenue to traffic […]        

Keith is the founder of SegMetrics, helping founders understand their true lead value using a data backed approach. On Air, Keith and Rob discuss why your KPI's might be setting up blinders as your create a marketing strategy for your businesses, how outliers can create a new train of thought in your marketing plan, and how to identifying strategies that can truly move the needle in testing conversions. Keith Perhac has delivered a few talks at MicroConf, from his first Attendee Talk back in 2015 to his keynote presentation at MicroConf Starter in 2017. You can check out his talks here: https://microconf.com/speakers/keith-perhac MicroConf Connect ➡️ http://microconfconnect.comTwitter ➡️ https://twitter.com/MicroConfE-mail ➡️ support@microconf.com MicroConf 2020 Headline Partners Stripehttps://stripe.comTwitter ➡️ https://twitter.com/Stripe Basecamphttps://basecamp.comTwitter ➡️ https://twitter.com/Basecamp TRANSCRIPT Rob Walling: [00:00:00] And we are live. Welcome to MicroConf On Air. Every Wednesday we livestream for about 30 minutes and we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious SaaS startups. These are startups that don't need to work 80 hour work weeks, raise millions in venture capital, or drive us to the brink of burnout. In this show, we seek freedom, purpose, and relationships, and we want to maintain those values while building interesting companies that can have an impact on the world, or maybe just our little corner of it. So thank you so much for joining me again this week, whether you're joining us live and maybe you're in MicroConf Connect, and you're going to be asking some questions of our guest today, or even if you're listening asynchronously on the podcast feed that's microconfpodcast.com or search for MicroConf On Air in any podcatcher that you use. Today I have the pleasure of, uh, bringing a Keith Perhac on the show. You may know Keith, as the founder of SegMetrics. Yeah. And he is , hailing from the Portland area. So it's a little smoky outside his house right now. But Segmetrics.io If you want to check it out. They're a team of about 10 people in the growth stage. I was talking to him beforehand about how can we give people a sense of, of where the company is? , and he said, "Look, we have product market fit and we're in the growth stages. We're starting to grow quickly. " If you go to SegMetrics.io, you can see their H1. In essence, SegMetrics is a tool that helps you get 100% clarity on where your leads come from, how they behave and how much your marketing is really worth. It allows you to get a handle on the KPIs that matter most for your marketing funnels is built by marketers for marketers. And today, Keith and I are going to be talking about how KPIs can be misleading when optimizing your marketing. So Keith Perhac. Welcome to MicroConf On Air. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:01:43] Hey, Hey Rob. Thanks for having me. Rob Walling: [00:01:46] Absolutely, man, um, that sky's look kind of clear from what I can see reflecting in your window as the air quality improved up there. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics:

Keith is the founder of SegMetrics, helping founders understand their true lead value using a data backed approach. On Air, Keith and Rob discuss why your KPI's might be setting up blinders as your create a marketing strategy for your businesses, how outliers can create a new train of thought in your marketing plan, and how to identifying strategies that can truly move the needle in testing conversions. Keith Perhac has delivered a few talks at MicroConf, from his first Attendee Talk back in 2015 to his keynote presentation at MicroConf Starter in 2017. You can check out his talks here: https://microconf.com/speakers/keith-perhac MicroConf Connect ➡️ http://microconfconnect.comTwitter ➡️ https://twitter.com/MicroConfE-mail ➡️ support@microconf.com MicroConf 2020 Headline Partners Stripehttps://stripe.comTwitter ➡️ https://twitter.com/Stripe Basecamphttps://basecamp.comTwitter ➡️ https://twitter.com/Basecamp TRANSCRIPT Rob Walling: [00:00:00] And we are live. Welcome to MicroConf On Air. Every Wednesday we livestream for about 30 minutes and we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious SaaS startups. These are startups that don't need to work 80 hour work weeks, raise millions in venture capital, or drive us to the brink of burnout. In this show, we seek freedom, purpose, and relationships, and we want to maintain those values while building interesting companies that can have an impact on the world, or maybe just our little corner of it. So thank you so much for joining me again this week, whether you're joining us live and maybe you're in MicroConf Connect, and you're going to be asking some questions of our guest today, or even if you're listening asynchronously on the podcast feed that's microconfpodcast.com or search for MicroConf On Air in any podcatcher that you use. Today I have the pleasure of, uh, bringing a Keith Perhac on the show. You may know Keith, as the founder of SegMetrics. Yeah. And he is , hailing from the Portland area. So it's a little smoky outside his house right now. But Segmetrics.io If you want to check it out. They're a team of about 10 people in the growth stage. I was talking to him beforehand about how can we give people a sense of, of where the company is? , and he said, "Look, we have product market fit and we're in the growth stages. We're starting to grow quickly. " If you go to SegMetrics.io, you can see their H1. In essence, SegMetrics is a tool that helps you get 100% clarity on where your leads come from, how they behave and how much your marketing is really worth. It allows you to get a handle on the KPIs that matter most for your marketing funnels is built by marketers for marketers. And today, Keith and I are going to be talking about how KPIs can be misleading when optimizing your marketing. So Keith Perhac. Welcome to MicroConf On Air. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics: [00:01:43] Hey, Hey Rob. Thanks for having me. Rob Walling: [00:01:46] Absolutely, man, um, that sky's look kind of clear from what I can see reflecting in your window as the air quality improved up there. Keith Perhac, Segmetrics:

Are you using the right metrics to track and plan for growth?  With so much data at your fingertips these days, it can be difficult to know what you should be tracking, what to do with the numbers you find, and how to leverage that data for growth. Understanding KPIs (Key Performance Indicators) and how to utilize them is a powerful tool for any business strategy, and in this episode we’re breaking it down for you. Keith Perhac is the founder of SegMetrics, software that helps you get 100% clarity on where your leads come from, how they act, and how much your marketing is REALLY worth.  Keith is also the author of "The 90-Minute Guide to Building Marketing Funnels That Convert," a top-down guide that walks you through every step of setting up and optimizing your automated marketing funnels.   In this episode, Keith dives into how to choose the right KPIs for your business, and how to utilize those metrics to set and achieve new goals. Tune in to learn: How to start tracking KPIs for your business Ways to identify and align the right KPIs with your unique business needs and goals How to set expectations with your team to track their KPIs Connect with Keith at segmetrics.io/hi/say-it-online for 30% off, and on Twitter @harisenbon79.  For the budgeting tool Keith and I go crazy over, check out YNAB.

About Keith:Keith Perhac is the founder of SegMetrics.io, a Saas company helping course authors, product creators, and self-funded businesses increase their revenue from their existing traffic.Unlike most marketers, Keith is also a developer, which facilitated his transition from DevelopYourMarketing.com to “the dark side” (AKA SaaS). This gives him an innate understanding of two key things: the marketing strategies required to grow, and how to implement said strategies for your business.Currently, his online software helps marketers and agency owners get 100% clarity on where their leads come from, how they act, and how much their marketing is really worth.In his spare time, you can find Keith buried in Dungeons & Dragons.SegMetrics.io and How it StartedLike all good software solutions, it was born from an itch that needed scratching.Keith started out as an agency owner, and had been doing funnel optimization and campaign optimization for a number of digital marketers. As his client base grew, so did the time spent on pulling the required numbers for the reporting process.“Pulling numbers is not what I got into marketing for… Understanding what to do with those numbers is why I got into marketing.”Numbers are vitally important to any business, particularly marketing, yet Keith and his colleagues were finding it to be a “huge time suck.” Being developers by nature, they committed to finding a more functional way forward.So, they built the first version internally, based on the premise of “Hey, can we drop these numbers into adatabase and then calculate them automatically?” As it turns out, you can! The Importance of Client Communication and ReportingThink about it… a client comes to work with you because they need guidance in a certain area. The more communication you have with a client, the more you can alleviate any lurking fears regarding your expertise in your field.“The number one thing I've found working with agencies, and things that we did internally, was to create a process. The stronger the communication process, the more confidence a client has in your agency.”Conversely, it's worth bearing in mind that over-communication can have the opposite effect. It indicates a lack of structure and a certain malleability. When a client feels they should take control of a project, you're in danger of losing your cache – that being your expertise.There are other pitfalls leading from that. For example, you could find yourself dealing with items that aren't in the project scope; fixing up “little things” that need tweaking, and – as Keith attests – “suddenly, you're a development shop instead of a marketing agency.”So, a set process is key to working well with clients from the offset. You can start this by ensuring…Every step is documented for both partiesEach step is part of a set process, showcasing how things are progressing/improvingEvery step then has a subsequent actionThis way, the client never feels in the dark, constantly wondering ‘What's going on next?!' Value Communication During COVID-19Right now, it's more critical than ever to be communicating value to clients. It can actually be bad for your clients to cut you right now if you're driving results for them, particularly online.“If you can keep revenue the same, or keep it from tanking, that's your agency fee paid for right there. That's the value you need to show and that's what we try to do with our funnel optimizations.”You need to show them you're not a cost, but an investment and a value-add, and you do that through your concise communication and reporting process.“Look, here's what we did this last month, here's where you would have been without us, and here's where you are with us. We're only taking 5% of all the improvements we've made; so we're definitely worth keeping on.”Set processes creates clarity, continuously reinforcing the value the client is getting. This, in turn, creates client confidence that you're producing results. Streamlining Your Client Communication ProcessKeeping that pertinent word in mind (value), how should agencies think about setting up a process for communicating with clients that's going to be efficient, streamlined and not take up a ton of their time?Depending on how much the client is paying you, create a cadence of a weekly call and/or email that updates them on where the stats are.When Keith signed a new client via his first company, he would follow a set schedule – core for clients that turned out to be a good fit.“They got a packet, a list saying, ‘go do this now. Go do this, go do this. This is going to give us all the information for our kickoff call…' Then, give them a list of everything you're going to do in that first six weeks – because it's a process, right?!”A simple example of such a process should go a little something like this…Schedule weekly calls to review results, plus the next steps requiredHost meetings every six weeks to discuss strategy, and roadmap for the subsequent six weeksEnsure there's a meeting two weeks before the renewal of the contractNever underestimate the importance of inserting yourself into the strategic decision-making process Automating Streamlined ReportingWhen should you consider automating the processes that feel like they might be quite tricky to streamline? According to Keith, there is one golden rule:“Never try to use software to automate the first time around, it is such a bad idea.”Instead, implement the below process before attempting to automate:Start with a paper and/or checklist of the Standard Operating ProceduresGive that SOP to someone who preferably hasn't undertaken this process before; their different POV should be able to highlight any holes and redundancies (plus it means you're delegating and possibly putting your time towards something more valuable!)Once that SOP is solid and proven, then you can work on automating parts that are consistently the same Your Take-Away…By way of summary, find ways of building more value into your relationships with your clients during COVID-19. Now is as good a time as any, according to Keith…“You are going to see a decline in revenue, that's a given; don't panic, take that extra time to make your business stronger… Now is the time.”So, take the imminent lull in customer interaction to refine your processes and, in turn, improve your value to both your existing and future clients.Go plug those holes! That way, you'll be better prepared for whatever lies ahead… Want to see more of Keith? Follow him @…Twitter @harisenbon79LinkedIn – Keith's personal pageLinkedIn – SegMetrics company pageSegMetrics.io Did you learn anything new from this episode? If so, let us know in the comments below – we value your feedback! Our next instalment of #APP, on June 10th, will see us chat with John Doherty. To view our previous blog with Alex Glenn, make your way here… Agency Profitability Tool KitIf you're looking for more resources to help you improve your agency's profitability, then check out the Agency Profitability Tool Kit – it's full of the same templates and checklists we've used with consulting clients to help them improve their profitability by over 100% in under 60 days.Download the Agency Profitability Toolkit!Get the same templates & guides we use with consulting clients to get them results fast.DOWNLOAD FREE   

On Episode 16, Keith Perhac, founder of Segmetrics.io shares lessons learned from the 2008 recession and how entrepreneurs and agencies can seize opportunities during the current economic climate. He offers some specific places where opportunities are presenting themselves.

Keith Perhac is the Founder of SegMetrics, a once-upon-a-time marketing agency that pivoted from marketing services to a suite of analytical and reporting products. Today SegMetrics builds and refines digital testing and tracking tools that provide marketers with critical information on where “leads come from, how they act, and how much a marketing program is really worth.” In this interview, Keith explains that KPIs (Key Performance Indicators) tell a company if it is doing something better or worse than at some time in the past. However, KPIs are about averages – they do not explain what is wrong or right – or what action to take next. Keith says it is important to look at the outliers, follow your leads through their entire customer journey, and dig beyond top-level KPIs to get a deeper understanding of the contribution different components make to a KPI. Before SegMetrics, Keith worked as a developer at a marketing/development agency in the middle of nowhere Japan. Fed up with long hours, Keith decided to quit to do “something on his own.” He started freelancing, “building awesome software” for great marketers, including Ramit Sethi, author of I Will Teach You to Be Rich. Keith claims Ramit taught him most of what he knows about marketing. Back then, agencies built their own metrics and testing tools. Ramit's focus on data, customer experience, and the customer journey brought a new dimension to Keith's understanding of marketing: He had to go back to his college psychology lessons on “how people think.” How could a company measure every touchpoint, every experience? How could it split-test design or copy position? What could it do to test whether people were converting? Keith's agency focused on expediting client launches and optimizing their marketing funnels. Keith says that, often, the biggest value the agency provided was in pointing out customer journey disconnects, fragmentation, and “holes” in funnels. The launches were exciting . . . the retainers not so much. Still, the agency expanded to twelve employees in four countries.  During a two-week period of client-free downtime, Keith's team built the software that is the foundation of SegMetrics today. A month-and-a-half later, the product launched. Keith intended to transform the agency to a product-oriented company over time and as the product increased in popularity. Didn't happen. The product did not “take off” until three years later, when they started a SegMetrics marketing campaign . . . and shut down the agency. Skillsets, tools, the business model, and staffing needs changed overnight. Today, SegMetrics provides done-for-you services, facilitates client agency onboarding, and offers a lot of customer support for its software. The biggest challenge is educating agencies that “think they already know what they know.” Keith is believes that setting up solid tracking and UTM implementation is critical for understanding where to best spend marketing dollars. An Urchin Tracking Module (UTM) is simple URL-linked code that generates Google Analytics.) Keith discusses the impact of Covid-19 on various business segments . . . and highlights the surprising number and kinds of businesses that are seeing tremendous business growth. While brick-and-mortar companies have suffered, Keith has seen increased traffic for companies providing entertainment, digital media, telecommunications, online information products, and Masterclasses. SegMetrics is releasing its first printed book this May: The 90-Minute Guide to Building Marketing Funnels That Convert. The book will be available on Amazon. Keith can be contacted throughs his company's website at: segmetrics.io and on Twitter (Keith Perhac). Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I am your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Keith Perhac. He is the Founder of Segmetrics, based in Portland, Oregon. Welcome to the podcast, Keith. KEITH: Thanks so much for having me. ROB: It's excellent to have you here. Keith, why don't you tell us a little bit about your own journey and how that landed you into Segmetrics? KEITH: It was a long journey, as I think many listeners' journeys were. I started out working as a salaryman in middle-of-nowhere, Japan as a marketer. Or not as a marketer, as kind of a developer and working at a standard marketing/development agency. That continued on for a while. The company got acquired; I decided I don't like working until 2 a.m. every night, and I'd prefer to do something on my own. I ended up leaving that and started out freelancing and doing work for a couple of marketers that were not very well-known at the time. Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You to Be Rich and a couple of other people. It grew and ballooned from there. It was interesting, because my journey was not, “Oh, I'm going to go start an agency.” It was more falling into that agency. I started out as a freelancer and then I got too busy, and it's like, I've got to bring on a subcontractor, and then I've got to bring on another one, and then there's more clients who want to work with me, and okay, now I have five people working with me. Oh, now I need to start doing events, and now I have 12 people working for me in multiple countries. So, it just grew organically from “I just like building awesome software and working with great marketers” to “Now we have a team of 12 people over four countries and we're working with clients all over the globe.” That was a shift. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] That's quite a shift. Across the world, across industries. So many different shifts there. KEITH: Yeah. ROB: I would imagine going through that I Will Teach You to Be Rich phase – people may have heard of Ramit now. From a marketing perspective, were they numbers-driven? Is that part of your story? KEITH: Yeah, he's always been super numbers-driven. Honestly, working with him was probably the highlight of my career and probably where I learned the most stuff about marketing because it really was trial by fire. This was back in the day when there really wasn't a lot of marketing technology out there. We look at things like automated webinars now, or we look at things like proof, to have a little pop-up to say, “So-and-so just bought . . .” None of this existed back then. There were no metrics except what you could calculate yourself. Google Analytics was around, but it wasn't very good. Split testing tools – all of the stuff that we take for granted now, we had to build ourselves. Ramit's always been a marketer who has been very into the data and very into the experience that customers are having and that people are going through. So the whole idea of how we can measure every touchpoint, every experience that people have and then take that and do something with that, whether that's a split test on design, whether that's positioning for copy, whether that's a little pop-up that says “So-and-so just bought . . .,” what are the things that we can do to test and see if people are converting or not? This all sounds like standard hat now; it wasn't back then. And we were also in a compressed timeline where it's like, “Hey, we want to have this up by Wednesday and it's Tuesday evening.” [laughs] It really was a trial by fire. I had had some marketing background, mainly dev and design, and then suddenly I got thrown into this world of, “You have to understand the marketing, how people think.” I used a lot of my psychology background and stuff that I learned in college that I thought, “I'm never going to use this again,” and now that's front and center with how people react to pages, how people interact with sites and copy and design, and then being able to test and improve that. It's really crazy. It was just constant. I think we worked with him for 5 years. That sounds about right. But it was a small team. He had just launched the second version of his first product, and I think there were five of us. It was pretty amazing. ROB: That sounds like quite an adventure, and quite a journey for him, his brand, and probably you along the way. I think you have talked a lot about numbers, about KPIs, and things that people get right and people get wrong about KPIs. What are some of the goods and bads of KPIs? KEITH: There's a lot of cargo culting in marketing, for good and bad. I think that KPIs are something that have been pushed for so long that people, rightly so, are like, “KPIs are important. They're our key performance indicator. If we don't know these, then we're not going to be able to improve our marketing.” That's what I hear over and over, especially when we were doing the consulting with the agency, and especially now that we're a KPI-driven company. People are always like, “What KPIs do I need to look at to improve my marketing?” The answer is you don't, because KPIs are key performance indicators. They indicate whether the company is doing well or not, or whether a marketing funnel is doing well or not. It's a measure like your speedometer, or I guess the engine heat gauge on your car. If the number is going down or up, you know you're doing something wrong or right. But just looking at that number is not going to let you know what to do next. That's why we're really big into looking at outliers. When you look at a KPI, you're looking at an average. Let's say you have 200 people coming into a funnel. You have 100 people coming in from Google, you have 100 people coming in from Facebook. The 100 people from Google convert at 100%. Every single person purchases. No one purchases from Facebook. What's your KPI for your conversion rate? It's 50%. That's great. But that didn't tell you that you have one audience that's making all the money and one audience that's making none of it. So, you know what to do at that point. You either get rid of the Facebook ads or you figure out why they're not converting. Looking at that top level KPI – and this is what most people think of when they think of the KPIs – it doesn't let you know anything other than, is the business continuing to do better or worse than it was yesterday or last month? It doesn't tell you those outliers, which is what you actually need to look at if you're going to improve. ROB: That's interesting what you mentioned on outliers. Especially when you're talking about looking at traffic from Google, some traffic from Google you can do more quickly in terms of ads. Some traffic you can do more slowly, maybe, in search. And sometimes you don't know – without a proper indicator of search traffic, there may not be any more traffic for you to get. KEITH: Right. ROB: All of that is context, I think, for what makes a good number and what makes a good KPI. What are you seeing in terms of maybe some unexpected outliers? We are in this moment where many of us are sheltering at home. We are in the middle of this coronavirus outbreak and trying to take care of each other and other people in our world by staying home. What are some of the shifting outliers you've seen in this mode? KEITH: This has been super interesting because some of the things that I predicted would go down and fail have not, and some of the things that I thought would do great have not. Obviously, anything with a physical aspect to it has done poorly. Anything where you have to go do sales in person or you're running a brick-and-mortar shop, those places are really struggling right now. It's very difficult. We've had a number of clients in those spaces – we had some dog trainers that are not able to do their work anymore. We had some construction places that aren't able to do their work anymore. There's a lot of places like that. That was I think an assumption that everyone had. Entertainment, digital media has gone way up, which has been really interesting. I think everyone kind of assumed that as well. Netflix is killing it. Telecommunications, of course – Zoom, we've all heard what's going on there, but that's been crazy. There's all these new telecommunications companies coming out of the woodwork because working from home is the new normal. I think both of those, people knew that that was coming. The one that's been really interesting to me, though, is online info products, especially higher tier ones, because I expected that people have less money, they have less disposable income; they're not going to be dropping $300, $500, $1,000 on info products and learning products. And I was wrong. Across the board, we've seen most niches of info products actually increasing in sales. Masterminds are increasing. A lot of events that have gone virtual, those are all improving. Specific niches – like I have a friend who is in the jobs space, and that of course has gone down because no one's going to work. But most places for general online learning have been increasing, and it's been very interesting to see that. ROB: Very interesting. I'm getting bombarded with ads for ClassPass – not ClassPass, rather, but Masterclass. ClassPass is probably having a hard time with their gym passes. KEITH: Right. [laughs] ROB: Masterclass for sure. So, it's interesting to hear those trends. When we look a little bit at your journey, Keith, talk about the transition from agency world to product world a little bit more. Was that a gradual transition, and one day you just realized where you wanted to be? Or was there a very decisive moment where you threw a switch? KEITH: It's a little bit of both, to be honest. I'm kind of risk-averse, I guess I would say. We were probably 6 years into the agency at this point, and our whole thing was we help people with launches, we help people optimize their marketing funnels. So, we're dealing with clients who, when they do a launch, they do $5-12 million launches. We bust our butts, and it's really rough, and then we see the same retainer, the same pay rate for that client that we do for any other client. So, we help make a $10 million launch and then we're just sitting there at the same point. After doing a number of these, we got to the point where we were like, “We know all the parts of this; why can't we do this for ourselves?”, as I think many people do. We're a bunch of developers. We really like developing, and we had done the marketing, so we said, “Why don't we try to build our own software?” We had about two weeks of downtime where we knew we weren't going to have any client work, and we said, “We're going to sit down for two weeks and build this thing.” And we did. We launched it I think a month and a half later, because building it and launching it are two completely different things, and it was always something that we were going to continuously work on in order to improve, and eventually that was going to take over the revenue for the agency. We were going to slowly transition from agency work to working on Segmetrics as it became more popular. We jumped up, we had really good MRR [Monthly Recurring Revenue] in the first month, and then it just plateaued for the next 3 years. [laughs] We didn't really lose any MRR; we didn't really gain any MRR. It just kind of sat there, and occasionally we'd fix things, but there was no focus on it. This was the main problem that we had for many years, which was “We have this great piece of software that we're using internally for all our customers, but how do we focus on it?” Focusing on the software is easy because we're all developers. Focusing on the marketing is harder because marketing is not something that you can sit down for an hour or two hours and bang out. Marketing is an overall idea and understanding of your customers. There's customer research. There's a lot of that goes into it. What we were finding was we couldn't make the time to do it. ROB: I think many services firms have that challenge. It's sort of the “cobbler's children have no shoes” scenario. How do you look at turning that corner? What started to unlock for you? Because that's a problem even for any given agency, I think. KEITH: Yeah, definitely. Just look at most agency websites. They don't usually build them internally because they don't have the time or the energy, or it makes more sense to go work on client work. Back when I was a salaryman, we actually had a group of five agencies and we were all friends with each other, and we would build each other's websites. We'd hire each other to build the other one's website because we weren't going to do it ourselves. [laughs] So, we tried a number of things. If you know 37signals, who did Basecamp, they were an agency originally. They're probably the unicorn of that agency turning into a SaaS company. They did the Fridays. They said, “We don't do any client work on Fridays, and we're only going to work on our own stuff.” We tried that; that didn't really work. We tried “After 3:00, we're not going to work on client stuff.” That didn't work. We tried a lot of different things, and we never really were able to get any traction on any of them. I think that a lot of it was just mental, because it's things like – let's take the Friday for example. We worked really hard on clients Monday through Thursday; now we're going to work on our own stuff, and we're just exhausted from 4 days of working on client stuff. And then we also need to reset and say, “Where were we last Friday when we left off?” So, there's this huge gap of what we did then, what the priorities are, if the priorities have shifted. Half the day is then essentially wasted getting back up to speed on what we were doing last week. We had the same problem with doing afternoons. After 3:00, we would work on our own stuff, or after 2:00 or whenever we decided to make that break, and the issue was for the entire morning, we're focused on a very input-output type of work style. Client says, “I need these six things,” we produce those six things, we know the agency has made six things' worth of money. It's a very transactional idea. Being able to translate from that into “Okay, now we need a marketing campaign. When are we doing this marketing campaign?” “I don't know, we need to figure it out” – going from this transactional to this creative side of things was very difficult for everyone. Those were really the two main challenges we had. How do you shift from a transactional mindset with the agency and with client work to an almost blue-sky, “We don't know what the answer is here”? usually when we're working with clients, they have a strong readership, they have a strong brand. They've gotten to a certain point where we are iterating on a foundation that they've made. But we're now having to build that foundation from scratch. Starting over from that and not knowing where to go, and to have to spend that time to do it, was very difficult, making that mental shift every day or every week. ROB: You knew yourself as a customer. You knew what you needed. You built technology to do what you needed. But it seems like there was probably a stage of getting to know your own customer better, which we all need to do. How did you take the steps to get to know that customer well enough to speak their language and really market well to them? KEITH: Lots of customer calls is honestly the only way. We talked with our agency friends, got on calls with them. Made it very obvious that they weren't sales calls, but essentially saying, “Hey, I want to show you this. What is the value for you?” We knew what the value for us was. We knew what the values for our customers was as an agency. But one thing we've learned is that every single marketer is different, and every single marketer wants different things, and they all have it set up differently. Honestly, that's the most painful thing out of all of it. We take something simple like recurring payments – there's 101 ways to set up recurring payments for a product. Maybe it's an invoice that gets an extra payment on it. Maybe it's multiple invoices. Maybe it's not even called an invoice, but a recurring – there's just so many things that come in, and everyone has set them up differently, even within similar systems. This was the first time where we realized, oh crap, everyone's doing something different; we need to figure out how to support everyone in a single bucket. So yeah, it was just talking with a lot of agencies. A lot of the things we ran into with the agencies were not actually technical at all. They were more like, “This is great. I really want to start using this. We don't have the time to set this up. We just signed up for someone else who does something similar, and it's been sitting there for 3 months because no one has the time to do anything with it.” ROB: Even with one of the simple things that you were involved in with Segmetrics, when I see lead tracking – we actually had an experiment we did with some agencies that we know involving simple things: how do you get very regimented about your UTM tracking, and how do you do this right? Can you get involved in publishing content and ads and whatnot so that it's easier to close the loop on a transaction? Everybody does it differently. Some people say “That's not important to me”; some people say “That's confusing.” And yet I know myself, coming from an engineering background, there's a part of me that screams out and says, “Don't you see? This is a really good way to do things.” [laughs] One thing I notice when I look at your product platform and some of the things that it does – and we don't talk a lot about products on this podcast, but I think it's worth reflecting on, especially from your background. I see this different DNA of how to efficiently run an agency well. You want to know when someone's not paying you. You know that talking to a client every week, giving them feedback on what you've done for them every week, can be a good practice to do that a lot of people don't get around to. How do you strike that balance of the stuff you feel like you strongly know somebody should do and whether or not they're ready to do it? I think we all have those things we feel like we ought to do. We ought to eat our vegetables, but we're not ready to, business-wise or at dinner. KEITH: It's rough. You know the old saying: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. There's a number of things that we want people to do. There's a number of things that we want people to think of when they're doing analytics. The only thing we can do is really educate them. We produce a lot of content about teaching people how to market. We have onboarding calls and we have hand-holding, done-for-you services and stuff. But the education side, especially when you're targeting agencies, is tough because they think they already know what they know. That's one of the biggest issues I think we have, which is we want to teach people that you should really use UTM values, and they're like, “We haven't used them up until now and we've been doing fine.” I'm like, “Well…” It's funny because I think the biggest hurdle we have is getting people's tracking set up correctly – installing the snippet, making sure those ad IDs and those UTMs are installed. We have a number of customers who are more technical, and they have literally perfect analytics. 100% attribution of every single click, and it is beautiful. I love it. And then I work with some people and I'm like, “None of your ads are set up correctly.” They're like, “Oh, we threw it over to the ad guy and he never set it up.” It's just so frustrating; it's been like 3 weeks, and why have they not added this ad snippet in? It's just very frustrating that because I'm technical and I understand the technology of how the web and marketing on the web works, I consider it a foregone conclusion that these are the things you need to do to set up. What I'm realizing is that a lot of marketers do not understand how the internet works and how marketing on the internet works. I think this is a difference of marketing now versus marketing 10 years ago, when you had to build everything yourself. Most people just see, “I have this landing page builder, I slap in this iframe, and then I'm good to go,” because from their perspective, it works. But that's not actually how anything is working, and there's a lot of magic going on in the background that they can't see and they don't understand as to how it's actually working. As long as it's working for them, they're like, “Everything's good.” But then something breaks and they have no idea why. We had one customer we were looking at and they weren't getting – and this is amazing, I think, with the software. This is also what we found when we did the agency stuff. The biggest value we provided to new customers was telling them where the holes were in their funnel. And sometimes these holes were not like, “Not many people are clicking on this.” It was “This campaign is not hooked up to anything” or “Your webinar is not sending in any leads to your marketing, so you have 5,000 leads that have never gotten an email from you.” We find this all the time, and it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating, both for them and for us. ROB: You've dialed in with being able to lead a horse to water. The follow-on from that we don't think about as much is really that you learn this often in relationships. You can't change people for the most part, but you can be there and help them and be helpful to them when they make a decision to change. It seems like that's a lot of times what marketing around this kind of product can be. I think there's an interesting thread I want to pull on here. You mentioned your own agency making a transition into a product and 37signals making a transition into a product. What do you think it is, perhaps – and maybe you've seen some other examples – that is in the DNA of an agency that makes it possible for them to make a jump into product? I think a lot of agency owners want to, and even spend a little bit of their engineering bench time to build something, but there is a wide chasm to cross past that. What do you think makes it work? KEITH: I don't know exactly, and that's because I don't think that we were able to make it work while we were an agency. But I think that you can't look at the product as a side hustle. It has to be part – we did not really start growing Segmetrics until we decided, “Hey, we're shutting down the agency. We're going to start moving everyone off and we're going to focus on this full-time.” It wasn't like we fired all the clients that day, but we made a very distinct decision that “We are not focusing on getting new clients. As client contracts are over, we're not going to renew them and we're just going to keep going down this path of software because that's where we want to go as the agency.” It has to be buy-in from everyone. We had some people who either did not or could not make that transition mentally, or didn't want to, and that's fine. But if we were to keep those people on and we were to keep going half-kilter at it, we were never going to succeed, because we had done the half-kilter thing for 3 years and it just doesn't grow like that. You have to be all-in. Or at least have that all-in as the final goal. ROB: Were there some roles that were more or less receptive to the transition than others? KEITH: Yes. I think there were some roles, but also just some people because of the way that – we were talking about that transactional idea where a client says “Do this,” you work for an hour, you complete that, the client is happy, and you know that you made the agency 1 hour's worth of money. With software, it's completely different. You could work for 8 hours and not produce anything because it was the wrong thing, or even if you did something awesome and everyone's happy, it doesn't actually result in any money. That was a very hard mental thing that was not role-specific, but a mental thing that needed to be addressed. One of the harder ones was account managers, because as an agency, you have to have an account manager, and only now are we starting to go back into account managers in Segmetrics because we just didn't need them. We needed support people, but that's very different than an account manager. We couldn't afford to have an account manager for every single customer that we had, especially when a customer is paying you $100-200 instead of $5,000 a month. It doesn't make sense at that scale. It was interesting, because I thought support was going to be very similar to account management, and it is not. It's a very different skillset. You need very different tools, and getting a new support person, getting support to work with Segmetrics was very difficult just because it was so different than anything we had done before. ROB: As you were talking about the account size required to support an account manager, it made me think of another example of what we're talking about here of an agency transitioning into a tech company, which was MailChimp. MailChimp started off as a web design shop and now is this huge, massive email marketing platform with hundreds and hundreds of people onboard. When you're charging $20 bucks a month for email marketing, you can't put an account manager on that. You can hardly spend an hour on them. But you can scale support. Support is a process of scale, I would argue, largely of consistency, of knowing when something needs to be escalated and when it doesn't, where the answers are, and how to help people find the answers. That may be overly simple. You probably have a better pulse on it than I do here. How would you distinguish it? KEITH: I think that's exactly right. It's very different than an account manager, where it's not about necessarily solving the issue directly, where support is, but more of that overall keeping in touch and relationship with them. It's more of an emotional thing than support is. ROB: Keith, what is coming up for Segmetrics and perhaps for broader marketing that you're excited about? We all need some things to be excited about in these moments, and I think many of us are finding them. What's exciting you? KEITH: Going outside at some point. [laughs] Being over quarantine would be great. Man, that's a hard question because there's so many things that I want to do and that we're working on that excite me. One personal thing that I'm excited about with Segmetrics is that we're actually releasing our first paper book in May, and I just got the proof for it yesterday, so I'm pretty excited about that. It's something that we've been working on for – even from the agency days, I had originally done a video course that never got produced, and we decided, “Hey, this is some great content. We really need to put this together into a book.” So, I've been writing that for a while. Really happy about that. Overall, with Segmetrics, I don't know. I don't know what I'm excited about next. The long, slow SaaS ramp of death I think is what they call it, and I think we're right in the middle of that right now. I have a list of features and new things and new ideas that we're super excited about, but it's just doing them. It's out of that exciting, blue sky phase and more into the “Okay, time to put our pedal to the metal and actually get this stuff done.” One thing that we did that I'm happy about is – I think I mentioned that we're bringing some account managers back, and what we decided to do is start working with agencies and companies that are signing up and providing them an account manager and getting them set up and having someone come in and configure all their campaigns and do all that. That's something I'm excited about that's hopefully going to be kicking off at the end of this month. ROB: Excellent. And where do we find your book when your book is available? KEITH: The book will be on Amazon. We're probably also going to have it on the site, but it's going to be on Amazon. It's called The 90-Minute Guide to Building Marketing Funnels That Convert. ROB: Excellent. That sounds very practical and like something we all need to think about. KEITH: I read a lot of marketing books. I read a lot of business books, and I always hate that they're really fluffy. They're also only half the size they need to be. I was talking to a friend about this who's a writer, an author in the industry, and I said I was reading Ryan Holiday's book – I'm trying to remember what the name of it was – and I'm like, “It was great up until the halfway point and then he started repeating the same stories. It was like he was rehashing the first half of the book.” He's like, “Well yeah, a book has to be 175 pages. It cannot be shorter than that. If you only have enough content for half, the publisher will say, ‘Write a second half that's just rehashing it.'” I hate that. ROB: Was this The Obstacle Is the Way or one of those? KEITH: No, I think it was his first main one that he did. I can't for the life of me remember which one it is. But I've always hated that, and I've always hated the extra – I like the stories because you have to get emotionally involved and you have to have a connection with the reader, but at the same time, at some point I just want to know “these are the six things you need to do, these are why they work, and here's my experience with them.” So that's what I've really tried to do with this book, is really put it down into “here's the theory, here's the reasons, here's what you need to do.” Hopefully it'll do that. ROB: Keith, when people want to find you and Segmetrics, where should they go to track you down? KEITH: Segmetrics is segmetrics.io. We're also on Twitter. I am Keith Perhac, also on Twitter. I am literally the only Keith Perhac in the world that I know of, so it's very easy to find me. And if you search far enough on Google, you will find things that I am still trying to bury 20 years later. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] We won't put those in the show notes. KEITH: Good, good. That's the problem with having a very unique name. You can never escape Google. ROB: Understood. Keith, thank you for coming on the podcast. KEITH: Thank you so much for having me. ROB: All the best for you and your team. Be well. KEITH: Definitely. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

During our interview Matt and I talked about:Honesty and authenticity in marketingDescriptive content over prescriptive contentJack of all trades vs specializationRefining processes through meticulous note keeping and data analysisThe moonshot techniqueFind Matt at:moneylab.colistenmoneymatters.com

In this episode of Data Beats Opinion, Brent and Keith discuss:Understanding what data to look at, interpreting it correctly and following what the data tells you you should do, even when it feels uncomfortableHow to decide when a marketing campaign isn't workingWhat your weekly scorecard should look like and why it's important to have this dataDrilling your goals down to one simple idea that your team can rally behindUsing data to help clients decide on where to focus their energy firstRisk tolerance, monthly spend threshold and deciding when to move on what the data is telling youThe most important info to know to improve lead generationYou can find Brent at:ugurus.comBrent@ugurus.com

Ryan sat down with Keith to discuss:- The effectiveness of Facebook's algorithm and why the biggest variable now is content- Using data as a driver when developing successful Facebook Ads- Engaging and warming up audiences before re-marketing to them- Understanding the motivations that draw people to different networks and how that influences the effectiveness of digital marketing- The online channel posing a big advertising opportunity- Consistently switching up creative to keep ads fresh- The metrics Ryan looks at to gauge the success of his ads- The app Ryan's launching this summer that allows you to bring your APIs right to BigQuery and pipe in the data that you need.Find Ryan at:- Theblueprint.training- www.facebook.com/ryanstewartSEO- @ryanwashere

In this interview with Val, we discuss:The metrics you should know when it comes to your email marketingThe benefits of using consultants to scale your SaaS businessThe importance of asking ‘why’ a lot when it comes to understanding your dataThe role of building brand affinity to reduce customer churnHow to build strong connections with your customers through your onboarding flowAdding a personalized touch to your onboarding to make your customers feel cared aboutYou can find Val at:fixmychurn.com@lovevalgeisler

Keith Perhac is reaching the third (but probably not final) stage in his business. Originally a developer based near Nagoya, Japan, he built a million-dollar technical marketing agency that worked with some of the top digital marketers. Now, he's taken that knowledge and built SegMetrics, one of the top analytics tools created specifically for marketers.

In this talk with Keith, Jevin discusses:Why hiring the best people probably means working with them remotelyHow offering remote work helps you attract talented people in senior rolesBuilding relationships and your company culture when your whole team is remoteThe challenges of 'hybrid' teamsSome of the mistakes team leaders make that damage their relationship with a remote workerThe importance of 'over communication' for the success of remote teamsTactics you can use to help engage your whole team and build comraderyThe value of planning remote team hang outs *on company time*The warning signs and good signs to look for when hiring remote workersResources for managers leading remote teamsConnect with Jevin:buildingremoteteams.comFree Remote Operations QuizBuilding Remote Teams Podcast

Kelsey Bratcher and his guest Keith Perhac Founder of Segmetrics. This episode is all about data. Why is it important to collect data on your sales process, how to insure that your data is valid, what can you do to leverage that data now that you have it. They also dig into custom direct mail and how to shake things up by going old school. Also as a bonus Keith and his team cooked up a killer offer if you want to sample the power of Segmetrics. Be sure to check it out at https://segmetrics.io/hi/get-automated/

"Build it, and they will come" could not be a bigger lie: an effective launch is crucial to your product success. Our guest today is Keith Perhac, founder of SegMetrics. You'll learn how to turn a few random emails into a cohesive launch experience, "prime the pump" for your product, and measure the outcome — so that you can optimize and iterate. Podcast feed: subscribe to https://feeds.simplecast.com/4MvgQ73R in your favorite podcast app, and follow us on iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play Music. Show Notes SegMetrics — Keith's product Launch — a book by Jeff Walker explaining the Product Launch Formula (PLF) CartHook — a well-known upsell tool How Sean D’Souza Changed Everything I Know About Pricing — Jane's article about pricing tiers Neil Patel's Digital Marketing Blog SegMetrics Blog Wirecutter — a recommendations website Patrick McKenzie — a famous software consultant we're talking about Episode 100: Leveling Up with Patrick McKenzie The Personal MBA — website & book by Josh Kaufman Develop Your Marketing — Keith's website Head over to segmetrics.io/loves/uibreakfast to get your 15% lifetime discount Today's Sponsor This episode is brought to you by Airtable. What would you make if you had tools designed for the way you like to create? Airtable gives you the freedom and structure to design a workflow that fits your product needs. This tool can handle any content you throw at it: screenshots, long text notes, to-do lists, and so much more. Receive $50 in credit by signing up at airtable.com/uibreakfast Interested in sponsoring an episode? Learn more here. Leave a Review Reviews are hugely important because they help new people discover this podcast. If you enjoyed listening to this episode, please leave a review on iTunes. Here's how.

Keith Perhac is the founder and CEO of segmetrics. SegMetrics connects directly to your CRM -- giving you 100% accuracy in your revenue and lead reporting. Get actionable insights without any coding, spreadsheet exporting, or pivot tables. Keith helps you Automate, Measure & Drastically Improve your sales and marketing funnels.

Keith Perhac joins us on the Business Blast podcast! This episode is brought to you by Authors Unite. Authors Unite provides you with all the resources you need to become a successful author. You can learn more about Authors Unite here: http://authorsunite.com/. Thank you for listening to The Business Blast Podcast! Tyler --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/authorsunite/support

 Know what segmentation is all about and help it helps to improve the conversion rates of your funnel Learn different CRM strategies that determine your client's worth in X dollars without leaving your money on the table Know why it is important to understand what people in your funnel is going through and the importance of understanding what motivates them to buy Resources/Links: www.developyourmarketing.com SegMetrics: Free Trial Exclusively for MTI Listeners Summary Keith Perhac is a digital marketer that helps authors, product creators and self-funded business fix their sales funnels. He is the developer of SegMetrics, a tool connected to the clients CRM - giving 100% accuracy in your revenue and lead reporting. In this episode, Keith shares how he helps people improve the conversion rate of their funnels by understanding and nurturing their leads. He explains the importance of understanding what the leads are experiencing as they go through the marketing funnel and how valuable it is to experience the funnel firsthand to know if it works. Check out these episode highlights: 00:55 – Interesting facts about Keith as a Digital Marketer and his tool SegMetrics 02:02 – His ideal client: anyone selling digital products online, agencies or consultants who are helping info product digital marketers improve their marketing funnels. 02:31 – The biggest problem of his client experience when fixing the holes of their marketing funnel. 04:10 – Discovering that most people are not aware that there is an existing problem even if they earn money, not knowing that there is money in the table. 05:52 – The common marketing mistakes his clients do before consulting Keith. 07:07 – Keith’s Valuable Free Action: Go to the whiteboard, draw out your funnel. Don’t do it on the computer, draw it out. 07:52 – Keith’s Valuable Free Resource: SegMetrics Free Trial: visit the website www.segmetrics.io/loves/leadsology 08:28 – Keith’s Valuable Marketing Tip: You must understand that people are going through your list and you need to understand what motivates them to buy. Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode: “It's all about segmentation and understanding what your leads are experiencing as they go through your marketing funnel.” -@harisenbon79 Click To Tweet “Most people don't know that they have a problem. They thought their business is doing fine. They're like Oh I'm making money. They don't know that there's money on the table.” -@harisenbon79 Click To Tweet Transcript (Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast) Tom Poland: Hello everyone. A very warm welcome to another edition of marketing the invisible. My name is Tom Poland joined today by Keith Perhac. Keith, good day and where are you hanging out. Keith Perhac: I’m here in cloudy sunny Portland Oregon. Tom Poland: Portland Oregon just like beautiful part of the world up there in Portland. It's gorgeous and you had some snow recently. Is that right? Keith Perhac: If you can call it that yeah. We had about I think a half an inch the entire city shut down there were winter advisory warnings the mayor was like don't go out. Keith Perhac: Often they don't go Oh it's here. Yeah. Tom Poland: Not exactly Chicago but no one. It's a bit like going it rains here everyone dries really slowly. Keith Perhac: We got the rain down pat. It's the sun that when it's sunny people drive like maniacs because they're looking at the beautiful skyline. Tom Poland: Interesting. On to things marketing. For those of you that know Keith he's a digital marketer now his specialty is that he's focused on helping people improve conversion rates of their funnels by understanding what the heck is going on and more specific...

My guest today is Keith Perhac, of DevelopYourMarketing.com and Segmetrics. Keith is a developer and marketer, and he is here to teach you how to calculate the value of your leads over the long-term. Focusing on lead value over time will enable you to know what is working and generating revenue, and what is not. Listen in as Keith shares his step-by-step guide to tracking lead value and tailoring your marketing to the most valuable leads. *** Tap on this link to access show notes+transcripts, join our private community of mavericks, or sign up to the newsletter: EveryoneHatesMarketers.com/link

Keith Perhac's here to tell you how you can learn the exact value of your lead sources. He's here to help you avoid the biggest mistakes in online marketing! With this episode, you'll learn more about Keith's story and how he's garnered success from his company Segmetrics. What you'll learn: - How to overcome the CHALLENGES of online marketing - The EXACT values of your lead sources - How case studies and stories are key parts of FUNNELS - How to improve your BRANDING for your marketing See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Keith Perhac onto The Top. Keith is a marketing expert, developer, and designer. His goal is to take complex things and make them simple, understandable, and actionable for business owners. Today he is the CEO of SegMetrics and DelfiNet, technical marketing agencies that help companies create highly optimized sales funnels. Famous Five:   Favorite Book? – Work the System What CEO do you follow? – N/A Favorite online tool? — HarvestApp Do you get 8 hours of sleep?— Yes If you could let your 20 year old self know one thing, what would it be? – “It’s not as scary as jumping off and leaving the company that you’ve been working on for 6 years to start on your own.”   Time Stamped Show Notes: 02:13 – Focus: DelfiNet or SegMetrics 03:02 – Founding day of SegMetrics and first revenue 04:20 – How SegMetrics is built 04:50 – Focused on building the greatest product 05:48 – Margins are better in SaaS 06:19 – Average sales per customer per month 07:10 – August Revenue 09:40 – 50% gross margins 10:15 – Biggest lever to increase profitability 11:02 – Traffic increased drastically 11:55 – Acquisition cost 12:16 – Biggest affiliate 12:33 – Second biggest affiliate 13:54 – Bootstrap 14:26 – Similar with Angel Investing 15:10 – The business’ worth 16:13 – Keith was based in Japan 16:38 – Developyourmarketing.com 18:57 – The Famous Five   3 Key Points: Take advantage of your on-peak time. Turn your previous challenges into positive experiences. Don’t just focus on sales, focus on creating a great product.   Resources Mentioned: Toptal – Nathan found his development team using Toptal  for his new business Send Later. He was able to keep 100% equity and didn’t have to hire a co-founder due to quality of Toptal  developers. Host Gator – The site Nathan uses to buy his domain names and hosting for cheapest price possible. Freshbooks – The site Nathan uses to manage his invoices and accounts. Leadpages  – The drag and drop tool Nathan uses to quickly create his webinar landing pages which convert at 35%+ Audible – Nathan uses Audible when he’s driving from Austin to San Antonio (1.5 hour drive) to listen to audio books. Developyourmarketing.com – Keith’s website Show Notes provided by Mallard Creatives  

Keith Perhac is the founder of DelfiNet, the co-founder of SegMetrics, and the co-founder of Summit Evergreen.  Keith had done work as a developer and designer before starting his first company, DelfiNet. He helps companies automate, measure, and drastically improve your sales and marketing funnels that drive their business. In this broadcast, Keith Perhac and I talk about: How he got his first client and what he learned through that experience. How his love for analytics drove him to start SegMetrics. Summit Evergreen filling the void of course-ware that provided customers custom integration, full customization, was hosted, and could be fully integrated into an already existing sales platform. The process for his team to develop software. The difference in thinking between a product launch and an evergreen sales funnel. How to find Keith Perhac online: Websites: summitevergreen.com, segmetrics.io, keithperhac.com Twitter: @harisenbon79 If you enjoyed today’s podcast, please leave a review on iTunes here. Thanks so much in advance for your support. The post ITT 083: How to Build a 6-Figure Sales Funnel with Keith Perhac appeared first on Tom Morkes.

On today's episode of the Art of Paid Traffic, we’re going to continue our mini-series on metrics and measuring your paid traffic as today, Charlie Vallely and Keith Perhac from a company called SegMetrics are joining me to talk about understanding the value of a lead and using your metrics to really dial in on determining how much should you spend on your paid ads. Now as you’ll hear as we get into it, the metrics platform they’ve created works with Infusionsoft but if you’re not an Infusionsoft user, not to worry, it’s totally fine. You’re still going to get a ton out of this discussion.

Keith Perhac is a technical marketer, a combination of a software developer and a conversion optimization specialist. He works with SaaS companies and internet marketers to develop automated evergreen sales funnels. He helps convert the traffic that comes to your website into sales. Keith has built two companies around this specialty: SegMetrics.io, which is the […] The post A Masterclass in Creating Options with Keith Perhac – 080 appeared first on Art Of Value.