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Introducing the All Def SquADD Cast show “Versus". It's a podcast with the OG SquADD! Each week, the SquADD will debate topics and vote at the end to see what wins. Versus airs every Monday and you can download and listen wherever podcasts are found.Special GuestKanisha BussDion LackCourtney HaynesThis Week We DiscussSwap Bodies With Your Ex vs Best FriendWalk Barefoot In A Nasty House vs Eat Coworkers Food Who Owns 15 Cats50 Million But Have No Contact W/ Friends & Fam vs 5 Million But Can't Spend Any On Friends & FamilyS/o To Our SponorsSquaresquare.com/go/squaddIf you're starting a business, or running one that deserves better tools, Square helps you sell, manage,and grow without slowing down. Right now, you can get up to $200 off Square hardware atsquare.com/go/squadd. Run your business smarterwith Square. Get started todayBlue ChewBluechew.comAnd we've got a special deal for our listeners: right now, when you buy two months of BlueChew Gold you get the their FREE with promo code SQUADD. You will also receive an additional 10% OFF + Free overnight shipping on your first order. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information. 

Don’t Fade and Die in AI Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ Matt Yanchyshyn, VP AWS Marketplace, Rekha Thangelapalita, Elastic GSI Leaders; Allison McFadden, Accenture AWS Leader; and James Kang of Nvidia join Ultimate Partner. In this panel discussion, leaders from Elastic, Accenture, Nvidia, and AWS dissect the urgent shifts in the ecosystem, emphasizing that partners must adapt to AI and agentic co-selling or risk fading away completely. The conversation explores the necessity of deep co-engineering, the power of multi-product solutions in the AWS marketplace, and how automated agents are now replacing traditional human sales pipeline progression. By embracing data readiness and strategic collaboration, organizations can survive the “token maxing” era, effectively scale their enterprise opportunities, and align with NVIDIA’s five-layer strategy to dominate the new cloud landscape. https://youtu.be/zUkL4Wqsa68 Key Takeaways AI agents will automate the majority of AWS partner co-selling attachments and opportunity progressions this year. Partners who fail to embrace agentic workflows and automated governance face the existential risk of fading into obsolescence. Successful multi-product offerings require a “blood to all organs” approach that benefits the client, the ISV, the GSI, and the hyperscaler simultaneously. Nvidia’s “five-layer cake” model emphasizes that successful outcomes at the application layer automatically drive growth for all underlying infrastructure. The “token maxing” phenomenon is forcing enterprises to seek cost-effective, open-model alternatives to scale their generative AI securely. Integrating GSIs and ISVs on the AWS marketplace significantly increases enterprise deal sizes and long-term customer renewal rates. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags strategic collaboration agreement, data readiness engine, agentic co-sell, semantic layer, token maxing, five layer cake, accelerated computing platform, open models, cloud consumption, multi-product solutions, partner central agents, propensity data, automated opportunity progression, generative AI governance Transcript Matt Y and Panel Audio Podcast [00:00:00] Vince Menzione: You have a choice. You can embrace them and figure it out and get governance and, and make your data available. Um, use the partner, central agent, move to Agen Co-sell, or you can fade and die. [00:00:11] Vince Menzione: You can feel it happening. The ecosystem is shifting beneath us, the way Hyperscalers are partnering, how AI is remaking the channel and what it means to win in 2026. [00:00:22] Vince Menzione: Welcome to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. I’m Vince Menzi. Own your host. And each week I sit down with leaders at the intersection of technology, partnerships and outcomes. The voices shaping how ecosystems actually work. We talk about what’s real, what’s changing, and what it takes to lead in this era where the partner channel isn’t just part of the strategy. [00:00:44] Vince Menzione: It is the strategy because [00:00:46] Vince Menzione: being in the room changes everything. Let’s start. [00:00:51] Vince Menzione: We’ve got some amazing leaders joining us. So I think probably for a little bit of context, maybe just start with Rika. You can introduce yourself, your role and, uh, what, what you’ve been doing at Elastic. Yeah. [00:01:03] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, sounds great. [00:01:04] Rekha Thangellapalli: Hi everyone. I’m Reka and I lead GSI Alliances at Elastic. Um, for the past 14 years, I’ve had the pleasure of building different kinds of partner ecosystems across companies such as SAP. MuleSoft, Salesforce, Coupa, and now Elastic. Um, I wanna thank Ultimate partner and Vince for having us here today. Thank you and the panel of these incredible speakers for joining me on stage. [00:01:31] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, very excited for the conversation today. [00:01:33] Vince Menzione: We love Elastic, and you’ve had some of your other leaders on stage at other events. As such, the quality of your leadership team is amazing. Thank you. [00:01:42] Rekha Thangellapalli: I wholeheartedly agree. [00:01:45] Allison McFadden: Excellent. Um, hello everyone. Allison McFadden. I lead our North America AWS practice at Accenture. [00:01:52] Allison McFadden: Uh, I’ve been there for five years, and truth be told, it was my first partnership role, my first formal partnership role. Uh, so I can take some tips from all of you in the room here today. Prior to that, I was 21 years with IBM, and I got into partnerships because my last role at IBM was actually trying to build. [00:02:14] Allison McFadden: Linux business on the mainframe, and I had to have partners. I had to have partners to help me with workloads to run there. So I kind of learned, uh, trial by fire. But I’m excited for the conversation today. Excited to be in this room and excited to talk about what we’re doing with, uh, elastic. Thank you. [00:02:34] James Kang: Uh, my name is James Kang. Nice to see and meet everyone here. Vince, thank you for the opportunity. Thank you [00:02:38] Vince Menzione: for being here. [00:02:39] James Kang: Um, I’m with Nvidia, so I help manage the AWS partnership at Nvidia all up. Um, I guess fun fact, I’m former AWS and so I see a lot of very familiar faces here in the front row. Uh, former colleagues and then current friends. [00:02:56] James Kang: And so, uh, looking forward to the conversation. [00:02:59] Vince Menzione: Great. Well, we’ll start with an easy tia. Matt. This is not directed to you, directed to the others. So what does a successful AWS partnership look like from your C? So we’ll start with Eureka. [00:03:09] Rekha Thangellapalli: Sure. So from an ISV perspective, I think we really are looking at three things. [00:03:15] Rekha Thangellapalli: Uh, mutual investment building together. And scaling together. So when we talk about mutual investment, elastic recently signed a five-year SCA or strategic collaboration agreement with AWS. And while that is a significant milestone in our partnership, for us, what matters more is what it represents, and that is really a long-term commitment from both companies. [00:03:39] Rekha Thangellapalli: Towards product engineering, um, and joint go to market initiatives to deliver value to customers over time. And that’s what we see is that the best partnerships really compound and they build upon each other every year. Um, they don’t necessarily kind of reset every year. Um, next we talk about building together. [00:03:59] Rekha Thangellapalli: So, um. When we talk about joint solutions, we want to deliver solutions that are better together and the customers have to see us that way. And so whether it’s search, observability, or security, we’re looking at taking to market solutions that we can’t or necessarily don’t wanna take on our own. And finally we talk about scaling together. [00:04:22] Rekha Thangellapalli: And this is where marketplace, for instance, plays a big role, um, when customers can draw down on their cloud commitments, transact online and go from, you know, pilot to enterprise scale adoption in hours, not days. Um, this is when really everyone wins. Um, and this is also where partners like Accenture play a critical role. [00:04:47] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, you know, the incredible amount of expertise that they bring, uh, the managed services capabilities and, um, their data assets actually play a huge role in having our customers realize that value faster. And, um, like Vince mentioned, at the end of the day, best partnerships are all all about creating kind of that. [00:05:07] Rekha Thangellapalli: Self-sustaining flywheel. And so it starts with investing together, building something unique, and having the customers realize that success faster because that success is really the only thing that’s gonna keep that flywheel going for everyone involved. I [00:05:26] Vince Menzione: absolutely. [00:05:26] Allison McFadden: Okay, amazing. I’m gonna riff off a few things Ika said, but from a GSI perspective. [00:05:32] Allison McFadden: A relationship with a WSA successful relationship with AWS looks slightly different. Um, so I think the first thing that we think of in the GSI Community common thread is that the client outcome and delivering value for clients is what we, what we’re striving for. Um, and so the partnership with AWS in that case, um, um, it has to, it has to. [00:06:01] Allison McFadden: Look like one team in front of our clients. So we have to show up indistinguishable, and that’s with AWS and with an ISV partner, it has to look like one solution in front of the client, especially moments that matter. So board meetings, um, you know, the time we’re gonna sign a deal, like we have to look like one team, uh, and keep our our client outcome, um, first and foremost in mind. [00:06:24] Allison McFadden: The second thing, and this is I think where the magic of all the people in this room comes into play. We can have as many discussions at a CEO level as we want. And if our client teams on the ground are not working together, it falls apart. Falls apart directly in front of the client. Yes. And that is a really hard thing to do. [00:06:45] Allison McFadden: So I’m passionate about the alliance work because that that work is what makes it happen at the corporate level. [00:06:53] James Kang: Cool. Um. I’ll start here. So in Nvidia is a accelerated computing platform company. Um, if you asked. Anyone on the, on the street about a year ago, what is ai? A lot of times they would say AI is, is open ai, or it’s philanthropic. [00:07:12] James Kang: Um, Jensen and I’ll, I’ll reference Jensen a lot today, um, because he is our leader, um, but he also sets the strategy in the direction for Nvidia. He talks a lot about AI in the metaphor of a five layer cake. And in terms of the five layer cake, you start off with the foundational bottom layer being power and energy, which sustains. [00:07:32] James Kang: All of our data centers, you move up the stack in terms of chips. So things think of Foxconn, think of TSMC. Next you have the infrastructure layer. So obvious choice is AWS, and then you get to the models where you do have the philanthropics and the open ais. But finally in at the precipice, you have the application layer. [00:07:53] James Kang: Ultimately, the reason why I mentioned all different stacks of the layers, the five layer cake, is the fact that the application layer is the most important. And so when you think about. Partners like Elastic or ServiceNow Trend, ai, CrowdStrike. Every time you pull from the application layer and you see a success, it pulls all five different components of that layer up. [00:08:13] James Kang: And so ultimately, as I think about success, it’s it’s being able to develop these co-sell wins at the application layer and really demonstrating that through extreme co-engineering and co-design with all the different application. Infrastructure, power and energy layers in mind. Um, Jensen also likes to think of himself not only as the CEO and founder, but also as the, the chief Marketing Officer. [00:08:35] James Kang: We are a very event driven company, and so at our big events like GTC or at big industry events like CES or Computex, he likes to show up on the biggest stage, biggest stages and showcase the partnerships with not only ISVs and GSIs, but also with end customers. And so that’s what I think about when I think of SA success. [00:08:56] Vince Menzione: That’s a really good point. You talked about, Allison, you talked about having an alliance strategy, or at least you teed it up, so I thought maybe we would go there for a second. Right? Like, what does a great alliance strategy look like and why is it important to the success of the partnership? [00:09:11] Allison McFadden: Man, I, uh, I have so many opinions on this. [00:09:13] Allison McFadden: We could probably be up here all day. That’s [00:09:15] Vince Menzione: okay. [00:09:16] Allison McFadden: Um, no, I think. Uh, there, there are a couple things, and the first one that comes to mind is focus. We cannot be all things to all people. Um, so when it comes to think about some of the, the work we’re doing with Elastic, we have a very, very clear point of view on what client problem we’re solving, what clients we want to talk to. [00:09:38] Allison McFadden: It helps if, um, from an ISV perspective, if there’s a very clear fit in. The Accenture portfolio or whatever, you know, SI consulting partner. You’re working with a very clear fit in the portfolio and we know what we’re not gonna go after, what we’re not gonna spend our time on because we have, we have this tendency, there’s millions of people. [00:10:00] Allison McFadden: The ecosystem chart that, you know, Vince, you showed up there, there’s so many connections. There’s probably more connections there than there are atoms in the universe, right? So, um. Defining what we do together and what we don’t do together is the first thing that pops to my mind. [00:10:19] Vince Menzione: Reka, do you have a perspective on it since we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk next about what you’ve done together, but, and I also wanna get mass perspective as a hyperscaler partner here as well. [00:10:29] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, I mean from my perspective, I, I’m gonna, you know, kinda echo what Allison said is to be just maniacally focused. Yep. Um, because, especially from my perspective, so Elastic has three different solutions, right? We’ve got search, we’ve got observability, we’ve got security that map to completely different business units within Accenture. [00:10:47] Rekha Thangellapalli: And of course Accenture does a lot of things. And so, you know, when we first came together it was like. Okay, what are we gonna focus on? What industries are we gonna go after? Which segments are we gonna go after? Which customers, you know, um, outcomes are we trying to solve? And I think that sort of maniacal focus is the number one contributing factor to, to the fact that I’m like, up here on stage today. [00:11:12] Rekha Thangellapalli: Great. [00:11:14] Vince Menzione: Matt? Perspective? [00:11:16] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah, I, I, I guess I was trying to. To add something, uh, additional from an AWS perspective, uh, when it comes to, you know, what does a great alliance look like? Uh, AWS is obsessed with data, you know, in data we trust. And, and so the best, um, and, and this goes sales business problem, and it’s not just the engineering teams. [00:11:34] Matt Yanchyshyn: And so, uh, you know, Accenture does a good job of this elastic, definitely. And if you can come to the table with, um, quantifiable proof of the value of customer outcomes and partnerships. Um, you’ll win all the time and it’ll be a durable relationship with AWS ’cause we really are this data obsessed company and, and even the most senior sales leaders. [00:11:54] Matt Yanchyshyn: Uh, and so what I mean by that specifically is like if you, if you can show like your a RR to land an a RR conversion ratio, like in in numerical format, it’ll light up our sales leaders and, and they’ll be all, and they will co-sell with you all day long. If you can show the, I mentioned this earlier, like the AWS service, uh, whether you’re consulting company or, um, elastic and, and how the shape of customer accounts change positively when we work together. [00:12:15] Matt Yanchyshyn: That type of sort of quantifiable data works particularly well from an alliance perspective. With AWS as a partner, we, we really are like this data in sort of results out company. Um, so I, yeah, that’s just adding to the great points that were already made. I would say specific to AWS that that’s key. [00:12:30] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah. And I’m gonna bring up one more thing. I want to dive in on the, the joint value proposition, but you mentioned something that made a lot of sense and resonated to me about the organizations once you get out of partner, the partner world that we all know and love. Mm-hmm. Once you get down into a field organization or account management organization. [00:12:49] Matt Yanchyshyn: Not as much understanding and really organizations do a bad job here, honestly, in terms of enabling the field organizations. Do you agree? [00:12:58] Allison McFadden: I agree because I, I agree. And, um, you know, I think that’s one of the things, and, and I, I, when I joined Accenture, what we had was a lot of wicked smart architects delivering programs to clients in the field. [00:13:15] Allison McFadden: Very smart, very deep in AWS knowledge. Um, and that was awesome for the 10 clients they were staffed on and to get that understanding of how AWS works and I dream about lar, right? Like, this is a good, you know, but that takes real effort and real work. Yeah. And it’s, it’s um, almost like being a language translator. [00:13:37] Allison McFadden: Yes. For me. Yeah. So, you know, I had to deeply learn AWS so that I could. [00:13:42] Rekha Thangellapalli: Sure. [00:13:42] Allison McFadden: Teach my account teams. My account teams are really smart. They know who they’re selling to. They know their customers. They know what their customers need. They do not know what AWS has to offer always because they’ve got 20 partners lining up to try to tell their stories. [00:13:57] Allison McFadden: Um, they don’t know how to ask of the AWS team or the elastic team or the Nvidia team. Yeah. What they need [00:14:02] Vince Menzione: this co-selling piece. Yeah. [00:14:04] Allison McFadden: And so that is where, um. We had to build that muscle even around our AWS practice, which was a huge practice at Accenture, but we didn’t necessarily surround it with that kind of enablement and um, almost deal coaching layer. [00:14:21] Vince Menzione: So Elastic and Accenture came together. I dunno which one of you wants to lead this part of the conversation, but you will, right? Yeah. So tell us about the genesis of this and why. And a lot of people dunno what Elastic does, but you do some really incredible work. Like I, somebody told me one day was like, oh, you know, Uber, like, that’s elastic, powering all that. [00:14:41] Vince Menzione: Like, we don’t think about that. That the engines that you have and the, the backend to the customers, huge customers. [00:14:48] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so when AWS launched this feature last, um, reinvent where basically it allowed, you know, channel partners such as Accenture to be able to bundle up their services, their data assets with an ISV solution and put it on marketplace, um, you know, Accenture and Elastic immediately saw an opportunity. [00:15:09] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, at the time most customers were doing gen ai. But they were running into the same challenge, which was that their data just was not ready. And by the way, this is a problem we were solving. Outside of marketplace. I think the, the feature that you guys launched just gave us a way to package it up and to be able to create this repeatable solution, which we call data readiness engine for gen ai and put it on marketplace. [00:15:40] Rekha Thangellapalli: And, um, this to me was a success because. Each company had a clear reason to invest. Um, so for Accenture, they were able to, you know, create a very differentiated services led offering. Uh, for Elastic, we were able to expand on our AI story. And for AWS, um, you know, it drives marketplace adoption, increases cloud consumption, all of that great stuff. [00:16:07] Rekha Thangellapalli: And customers, of course get. A solution to a very real problem that, that they were having. Um, and you know, the surprising part for me going through that journey was that, um. The pitching, the idea, getting the budget, getting the executive sponsorship was actually the easy part. The hard part was getting all three companies to come together, uh, to go from idea to launch in a very ambitious timeline of six weeks. [00:16:37] Rekha Thangellapalli: Nice. And so, you know, this was very much like. Doesn’t matter your title. We’re rolling up our sleeves and we are on this outcome together. Um, and so we literally built a RACI matrix, a project plan, and you know, we had daily standup calls for six weeks where literally. At least one person from each three of these companies called in, you know, got rid of any blockers and we made sure we were on target for that timeline. [00:17:07] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, and you know, at the end we had a successful launch. But I think my favorite part about the story is the impact that we’re having and, um. My favorite story comes from a global pharmaceutical company that, you know, had basically nine petabytes of data spread across six different continents. Wow. And by working with Accenture and Elastic, they were able to build that trusted foundation that their AI and their agents can, you know, kind of safely tap into and be accessible at scale. [00:17:41] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, so that’s my version. Allison. [00:17:44] Allison McFadden: Yeah. Well, I don’t have a lot to add. I just, I would say this is a good example of a couple of principles, right? One is having a forcing function is never a bad idea. Sign up for a big event, sign up. I’m like, I’m here with my, you know, Nvidia guys saying, sign up for the event. [00:17:58] Allison McFadden: It’ll make you move quick, right? [00:18:00] Audience Member: Yes. [00:18:00] Allison McFadden: Um, so that is one, but two, one of my mentors once told me, when you’re designing any kind of, you know, offering go to market motion, it has to get blood to all organs. If it does not get blood to all organs, it does not go [00:18:14] Vince Menzione: nice. [00:18:14] Allison McFadden: Um, [00:18:14] Vince Menzione: I love that analogy. [00:18:15] Allison McFadden: Oh, I love it. And I can talk all day. [00:18:17] Allison McFadden: That guy was brilliant. I love him. But, um, no, and, and so Elastic did a really nice job of bringing the tech to the table. Um, our team has to trust in that technology and its ability to scale, right? Um, because at Accenture we have to be able to deploy across 700,000 consultants. Um. And yeah, so I think those are the two, two things that really worked well here is we had, uh, trust in the technology solved a customer need. [00:18:50] Allison McFadden: Um, it drives, we don’t even talk about, like, yes, it drives marketplace revenue, but it unlocks work that we do that drives even more revenue to our AWS Friends. Right. So this is a, this is a, um, product that’s getting your data ready for AG agentic. It’s a messy problem that everyone’s dealing with, and it removes blockers for clients and it unlocks more, you know, ag agentic work on top of that. [00:19:15] Allison McFadden: So, blood to all organs. [00:19:17] Vince Menzione: So, was that the proposal going forward to say we need to have, we need to have trust in the solution. We need to drive significant revenue. It needs to be something all of our, you know, seven, 700,000 people. Can be a part of and help drive? Is that how you think about? [00:19:32] Allison McFadden: Yeah, and for us right now, um, it’s an interesting time for Accenture. [00:19:36] Allison McFadden: Our clients are asking a lot of us, and what it does is it having some of these accelerators helps us deliver cheaper, better, faster to our clients, which is what they’re demanding of us right now. Um, so it’s an accelerator to client outcomes. [00:19:55] Vince Menzione: James, what is NVIDIA’s role and how do, how do you enter the equation here? [00:20:00] James Kang: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s a good question. Um, I, I would say that Nvidia is probably one of the most misunderstood organizations in the world. Um, despite the, uh, the market capitalization in the valuation of the company, we have a very tiny organization. Um, what I mean by that is, um, if you think about. [00:20:20] James Kang: Salesforces and field sales organizations. Um, we’ll take Salesforce as the account or the customer. As an example, we have one account manager at NVIDIA that no, not only covers and is responsible for the relationship with Salesforce, um, but also manages. Automation Anywhere as well as DocuSign. Whereas at AWS, in contrast, like there are full armies and teams Yeah. [00:20:45] James Kang: That are supporting the Salesforce relationship. And so as you think about partnering and working with Nvidia, the focus has to be on really. Extreme co-design, but also being very prescriptive in terms of what are the very specific customer outcomes that we are solving for. And the guidance that I would give is bring in Nvidia into that equation and that conversation as early as possible because that [00:21:10] James Kang: co-engineering and co-design needs to be part of the foundational building blocks in order for you to come out with a end solution that checks all those different requirements. [00:21:20] James Kang: And so I think. Again, like going back to Nvidia, um, we like to talk about two different types of brains. A brain one and a brain two. Uh, brain One you think about the next quarter and making sure that you’re hitting the revenue targets for the next quarter. Brain two, you think about a long-term goals and potentials looking around corners and being very strategic. [00:21:41] James Kang: The saying internally is without Brain one, there is no oxygen, but without brain two, there is no future. And everyone at NVIDIA is trained to think in that brain two mentality. [00:21:52] Vince Menzione: Wow, Matt. [00:21:54] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah, I, I was just thinking I love the blood doll organs. Uh, and so just on, on that note, um, and, and, you know, the multi-product solutions that, that you, you built together, uh, that is a really good example of blood do organs because like we all know, that’s how customers buy. [00:22:07] Matt Yanchyshyn: They, they buy solutions and increasingly they’re looking for combinations of ISV, sometimes multiple products from multiple ISVs with services. Uh, often they’re buying it through a resell motion. You know, and they, and, and so that from a customer perspective, they want a single place to go. And so that’s the multi-product solution. [00:22:24] Matt Yanchyshyn: They wanna find everything they need, they need Accenture, they need Elastic to solve a specific solution. And I think where that’s headed is even more specific listings, like with AI powered listing experience, like, you know, elastic Plus Accenture for, I’ll make something up like a manufacturing workload. [00:22:37] Matt Yanchyshyn: And so this solution based. Uh, sort of buying is, is very customer centric. It’s what customers want. We all know that. But that’s, that’s the customer sort of organ, I guess. Um, but then, you know, you all have SCAs and those SCAs have marketplace commits. It helps if that gets transacted through marketplace helps the AWS relationship, you know that that’s an organ. [00:22:55] Matt Yanchyshyn: It’s the relationship. It’s, it’s the commercial construct and that you have, uh, that that’s another organ. You’re marketing people. They, that’s another organ. They don’t wanna land, uh, leads on a static marketing page. They wanna land a lead on a, a storefront with a multi-product solution that can actually convert and that you can actually buy it through that. [00:23:12] Matt Yanchyshyn: So the marketing person’s happy because they, they have less churn. Uh, and then, you know, our reps are happy ’cause guess how they get paid? They retire quota when they sell Marketplace. And they, we also, Jay McMain will tell you, that’s another organ called Jay or on, on you now. Um, [00:23:27] Matt Yanchyshyn: he’ll like that. I’ll call him up and tell him that. [00:23:29] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah, [00:23:30] Matt Yanchyshyn: but he, he’ll tell you, you know, don’t believe me. Obviously, never believe Matt, believe, believe the, the data and, and his data shows that. Those deals will close faster and larger if you use marketplace. So that’s, that’s a lot of organs. That’s the whole body. Um, but you know, when you have your customer happy ’cause that’s how they wanna buy your field happy. [00:23:45] Matt Yanchyshyn: Um, and, you know, the relationship happy and you know, your marketing team happy. Uh, and, and Jay happy. Um, and, and you know, I think that multi-product construct and, and the way you kind of use it to model a partnership and the way buyers ultimately wanna buy is, is really powerful. And so I, I think it’s, you know, it’s really a manifestation of how. [00:24:04] Matt Yanchyshyn: We kind of intend and to go to market anyway. Uh, so I think, you know, and thanks for leading the way, by the way. You’re, you’re amongst the very first, so that’s great to see. [00:24:11] Matt Yanchyshyn: So these storefronts are really helping this drive, drive this. Well, [00:24:13] Matt Yanchyshyn: that’s the next evolution. Like we’re talking about the multiproduct solution. [00:24:16] Allison McFadden: I’m JJ Accenture storefront. [00:24:17] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Oh, there you go. I mean, j and j Accenture storefront. [00:24:20] Allison McFadden: We’re gonna talk about that. [00:24:20] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah. I mean, [00:24:21] Matt Yanchyshyn: Accenture also leading the way yet again with storefronts. And so I think the combination of. You know, again, I was talking a lot about conversion. Yeah. And you know, buyers know sometimes they know what they wanna buy and, but if you really wanna convert that lead, you wanna land them again, something that combines, you know, elastic Accenture’s services plus software, but in a storefront that is, you know, surrounding with just the solutions they want so they don’t need to kind of go searching. [00:24:42] Matt Yanchyshyn: So, you know, ultimately reducing that time to close, I guess, really ’cause meeting the customer where they are with what they need. [00:24:51] Matt Yanchyshyn: So we talk about co-selling a little bit. We, Jay and I talk about this all the time. We gotta keep looping Jay in here, even though he is not even in town this week, but Reko, um, what does co-sell look like inside Elastic? [00:25:02] Matt Yanchyshyn: You’ve got, we talked about an incredible leadership team. I’ve gotten meet some of your leaders. Seems like you drive, you do a good job internally driving that. Let’s talk a little bit about it. [00:25:11] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, and this is something I’m, I’m personally very passionate about. Um, co-sell is. Very much a journey, not a destination. [00:25:20] Rekha Thangellapalli: And I think step one for us is recognizing the different partner types that we have. Because at Elastic we work with, you know, OEMs, MSPs, resale distributors, GSIs, um, and they all bring something very unique. To the customer lifecycle and they all contribute very differently within, you know, our own sales cycle and sales process. [00:25:45] Rekha Thangellapalli: And so, you know, figuring out what is the unique benefit they bring, how do we enable them? So training and enablement is a huge piece of it, and so is making sure we’ve got the right metrics to measure success. Um, I know a lot of companies look at partner sourced as the north star, and that’s great, right? [00:26:06] Rekha Thangellapalli: Because that is undeniable. You can say, Hey, that would not exist if it wasn’t for my partner team. Um, but we’ve also noticed that when we bring in GSIs, it actually increases renewal rates. It significantly increases. Um, a RR over time. Um, it expands deal sizes and so these are very real metrics that we can point to, um, beyond just the co-sell and the partner sourced number. [00:26:32] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, so for us it’s looking at it from a very holistic perspective, but also catering it towards that unique partner and making sure we’re doing everything we can to set them up for success and setting up the partnership for success. [00:26:47] Vince Menzione: So clo close win ratios, deal size and renewal rates? [00:26:52] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yes. For specifically for geos size. [00:26:54] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. [00:26:55] Vince Menzione: Very interesting. Allison, uh, what had to change internally to produce these co-selling? We talked a little bit about the field organization and enabling a, a group of, and, you know, account sellers that are very customer focused and enabling them on the co-sell side. What had to change internally to drive that? [00:27:13] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:27:14] Allison McFadden: I, I might have already alluded to this a little bit in a previous answer, but, um, creating the capacity to develop, build, and sell these solutions, um, inside of a large GSI, where billable hours is kind of the number one metric on the table. Um. Is part of the investment that we had to make within Accenture to get this done? [00:27:36] Audience Member: Yeah, [00:27:36] Allison McFadden: so expert technology time. So we have technologists that understand the elastic technology. We do similar with Nvidia, by the way, we. We released some of their time to go co-develop the solution because it has to hold technical water, right? It can’t just be a marketing pitch. It can’t just be, it has to be a real, um, what’s the there, there. [00:27:59] Allison McFadden: So in order to actually do proper co-sell, we had to release some of that time. Um, to invest in those partnerships. Um, we’ve also done similar with some industry aligned business development leaders recently, so we have freed their time up to go. Uh. Open new conversations, educate client, account teams, go to clients, have conversations. [00:28:26] Allison McFadden: Um, so that, that’s a new motion that we, uh, have just kind of recently made, um, to allow them, I love this brain one, brain two also, right? So to allow them to focus on brain two, because a lot of our time. Typically spent delivery issues, you know, getting my hours, where am I charging my time? And so just freeing up a little of that capacity to do this work, um, helps get us in this brain two mode where we’re not just living to survive. [00:28:56] Vince Menzione: I. So, Matt, you’ve removed a lot. I mean, one of the things I admire, I admire AWS for being first to market and removing the most friction in marketplace of any of the vendors. Really, truly that. You talked about some of the announcements. How does some of, how does some of this tie PC central agents propensity sales plays, MCP, how does some of this tie to how, how you’re thinking about the future? [00:29:18] Vince Menzione: And how to enable more motions like this. [00:29:20] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah. Well, I, I think if you know my boss, UBA Borno, uh, you’ll know that she has a maniacal focus on automation. Yeah. Um, and, uh, co-sell is increasingly automated. You know, you were asking earlier about propensity data. You can get that propensity data in addition to sales plays and, uh, opportunity scores through the partner central agents. [00:29:38] Matt Yanchyshyn: So things that used to require multiple calls to A PDM, if you’re lucky to have one. Yeah. Or a p sm. Uh, you, you can now get through, through these agents, you know, uh, tech Systems, TGS, they, they manage what, over 5,500 customer opportunities with agents that they built on top of our partner Central APIs. [00:29:55] Matt Yanchyshyn: Um, and work Span has built a whole product and business that’s right on leveraging, uh, our APIs, our capabilities to sort of tie into your CRM. So, majority of all opportunities will be progressed and managed by agents. This year at AWS, we already have a majority of all customer opportunities, all app have a partner attached and I, I took a personal goal for a majority of those partner attachments, not to happen from a human. [00:30:22] Matt Yanchyshyn: But from our solution matching engine. And how do you get recommended by that solution? Matching engine, having a healthy ACE pipeline, thanks to partner central agents and the integrations you’re doing. And in addition to being the specializations and doing things like multi-product solutions and ultimately closing opportunities, you dream of LAR and so LAR will help that. [00:30:40] Allison McFadden: It’s more like a nightmare. [00:30:41] Vince Menzione: And so, you know, [00:30:42] Allison McFadden: it’s more like a nightmare, but [00:30:44] Vince Menzione: nightmare. Well, it’s, it’s, yeah. Nightmare of Laura and, and. Nice dreams of PRM, but the, um, but that’s the loop, right? I, I think, uh, increasingly co-sell for us, and in my mind, is largely a hundred percent automated. Yeah. Except for what matters most, those most largest, most strategic, most complex deals. [00:31:01] Vince Menzione: Where our highly paid and very skilled salespeople are most effectively used. [00:31:05] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:31:05] Vince Menzione: You know, the days of, you know, this person with 20 years experience selling, clicking, progressing opportunities through a pipeline, uh, should be over. Uh, and, and we need those people out, out selling and, and co-selling. And so that for me. [00:31:19] Vince Menzione: Yeah. That, you know, we talk a lot about co-sell, but I, I’m obsessed with automating as much of the co-sell as possible. [00:31:24] Vince Menzione: I remember going back to the ex Excel spreadsheets and, and that, that seems to be be Viva became spreadsheet jockeys. [00:31:31] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:31:32] Vince Menzione: And, and they stopped selling. They forgot how to sell. [00:31:34] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And people spend all this time doing lunch and learns and things like that. [00:31:36] Vince Menzione: And then, you know. Then the salespeople rotate out after 18 months and, and it, that’s, that’s the old days. Uh, you know, the new days are, are AI powered matching algorithms, uh, ag agentic co-sell, using the partner essential agents to get your data and, and putting that data to use automatically and, and what sounded like magic. [00:31:51] Vince Menzione: 12 months ago is being done, you know, by partners at massive scale across thousands of opportunities. You can do it today. And you know, I, there’s a guy named another Mike, right? Mike another Mike who they have, there’s like a guy who’s doing all this and I’m picking on Mike ’cause I, I know their system really well and I know the guy Mike grew easily built it for them. [00:32:08] Vince Menzione: Um, but, you know, I think, yeah, again, in the days of having 10 people sort of doing lunch and learn could be replaced by one or two people, building agents, uh, managing a massive pipeline. And, and that’s the future. [00:32:18] Vince Menzione: Exactly. James, your perspective on what breaks with co-selling? [00:32:22] James Kang: Oh, what breaks co-sell? Um, I would say. [00:32:25] James Kang: It, it starts and finishes with just misalignment and a loss of trust with the customer, especially when you have multiple partners or stakeholders involved. If you’re trying to do a three-way deal with a end customer and you’re not on the same page, you’re not gonna get to a successful outcome on, on the backend. [00:32:44] James Kang: Uh, the fix is a much more complicated story. I would say that to take a step back, um. We’ve talked about the five layer cake. We’ve talked about where NVIDIA kind of fits within the equation. We are invested in the ecosystem and so as different players and application organizations win and see these outcomes for end customers, we celebrate that success. [00:33:07] James Kang: Um, and as part of that kind of ethos of where NVIDIA fits within the ecosystem, we wanna make sure that not only. Our customers, but our partners like ISVs and GSIs are set up for success. Um, we do not as Nvidia sell hardware or GPUs directly to customers We use. Hyperscalers like AWS as kind of our force multiplier. [00:33:31] James Kang: And similarly we think of ISVs and GSIs as the force multipliers in terms of our extensions of how we, we kind of leverage the relationships and build the trust with our end customers. And so going back to kind of the question, Vince, I would say that it all comes back to trust and being able to build that mutual trust. [00:33:48] James Kang: Um, a lot of what we do when we co-sell with AWS is really on the software layer. Um, we actually have more software engineers at NVIDIA than we have hardware engineers, which is a weird thing to say, um, because everyone knows us for our GPUs. But because of that fact, we are heavily invested in Cuda and making sure that Cuda becomes the foundational layer for how not only our ISVs and GSIs, but also our end customers are building. [00:34:12] Vince Menzione: Very cool. So Reiki, you and James together on this production. Versus pilot with the Gentech ai. Tell us a little bit more about that. Where, where are you in the process? [00:34:24] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. So I mean, in general, what we’re seeing out in the market in, in relation to sort of AI and, and customer’s journeys is that, um, at least from an elastic perspective, um, we’re seeing people very much in production when it comes to, you know, kind of AI assistant co-pilot use cases. [00:34:42] Rekha Thangellapalli: So, you know, things like, um, software development, customer support is a big one. Um, any sort of employee productivity use cases where there’s. Still a human in the loop somewhere. Um, and there’s a very like, clear path to value. And so we see the customers being in production excelling there. Um, no problem. [00:35:01] Rekha Thangellapalli: Where we’re seeing people still kind of in the pilot phase is those fully autonomous workflows where there is no human involved. The agent is reasoning on its own. Um, accessing multiple systems and taking an action on the user’s behalf. And what we’re seeing is that it’s not the intelligence of the agent that’s holding it back. [00:35:26] Rekha Thangellapalli: It’s more about giving the right context to the agent and having the right. Security kind of governance controls in place for the company to feel comfortable in putting these fully autonomous workflows into production. And that’s really the conversation we’re having is all right, what are the controls you need in place? [00:35:47] Rekha Thangellapalli: For you to release this to your business unit. Um, and what is the context that the agent is needed before we can comfortably let the agent make the decision on the user’s behalf? Um, James, I’d be interested to hear what you’re, what you’re seeing in the market [00:36:03] James Kang: plus one on all things context. I, I would even go so far as to say, um. [00:36:09] James Kang: H how many folks in the audience have heard of token maxing? Like this new term? [00:36:13] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:14] James Kang: Um, I’ll, I’ll give a very specific example of, of Uber that went public. With the example of Claude, like they allowed all of their employees to use as many tokens as possible, and within the span of four months, they exhausted their full budget for the year, and so they had to pull back, and now there’s a cap on every employee. [00:36:33] James Kang: I think the number that’s circulating is $1,500 per month per employee, and so I think that is at least. In this multi-phase evolution of where we’re going to be and where we’re today, cost has become kind of the prohibitive force in terms of agentic AI at scale. Um, I think we are working on some very creative solutions in-house and Nvidia. [00:36:55] James Kang: Um. And we saw some really dynamic announcements this week when it comes to all things agent core, um, where we want to focus on very nimble ways for customers to be able to execute and go to market. And one extreme example of that is our investment within our open model strategy. So Nvidia, not only, again, providing GPUs, we actually offer our own op open models, which we call our Nitron models. [00:37:21] James Kang: And through our Nitron models, we are allowing customers to really develop and fine tune their own proprietary models in a cost effective manner. So right alongside the frontier models like OpenAI and Anthropic. It’s not a if then, it’s not an either or statement. It’s a, it’s a permutation, it’s an and So we’re giving you a cost effective alternative to not only bring your AgTech applications at scale by training on Nibo tron, which is open source, but then once you’ve kind of finished and fine tuned that specific training job to be able to. [00:37:53] James Kang: Go ahead and utilize your frontier models, whether it be OpenAI or Claude. And I know there’s other partners here that are providing those kind of different model capabilities. And so I think for us it’s, it’s a matter of choice. We know that this market is dynamic. It’s gonna be evolving over the next coming months as well as the next coming years. [00:38:10] James Kang: Uh, but we believe that we are positioned for a really unique dynamic expansion of AgTech use cases over the, at least the next three to six months. [00:38:20] Vince Menzione: Allison, for the partners in the room who are glazed over right now going, what do I, what do I do over the next 12 months? [00:38:26] Allison McFadden: Should I wake everybody up by saying, yeah, please. [00:38:27] Allison McFadden: Say go hurricanes. [00:38:28] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:38:29] Allison McFadden: Is there anyone, anybody? Everyone’s like, boo. I get to leave the parade today to go home to parade. I live in Raleigh, so we’ve got our parade on Saturday. Nice. [00:38:39] Vince Menzione: Nice. [00:38:40] Allison McFadden: All right. Wake up. Um, all right. So for the $50 million partners in the room, um. $50 million is not small. You have something that works. [00:38:50] Allison McFadden: Right. This is great. What I would be thinking about is, you know, we’ve talked about focus before, but really doubling down on, you know, what is, what is your industry, what is your client like, ideal client that you serve. And build, um, almost that kind of community. You know, the, the clients we have move from firm to firm to firm. [00:39:17] Allison McFadden: And if you’ve done good work at one, you’re gonna follow ’em to the next. Um, so build that client demand in a specific place or specific client profile that is just like really knocking it out out of the park for you. Um. Scale with marketplace, right? So if you, I, I love some of the data that you were sharing in your talk earlier, um, because it’s like no overhead scaling mechanism. [00:39:45] Allison McFadden: I mean, it’s, it’s fantastic. Um, Accenture, other GSIs like us, we are investing in marketplace. So we’re investing in resources, um, to help us. Use marketplace more with our clients and we’re gonna capture, right, those storefronts. And if you’re present on marketplace, you’re gonna be able to catch, uh, yourself in that wheel. [00:40:09] Allison McFadden: So I think those are the, the kind of couple of things I would say is focus, focus, focus to drive that client demand and use scaling mechanisms like marketplace to really kind of, uh, accelerate. [00:40:24] Vince Menzione: Matt, anything to add there on the. [00:40:26] Vince Menzione: Well just, you know, Ja, James, you, I love the token maxing reference in Uber and it reminds me, you remember when cloud came out and everyone was like, oh, all these people are, are gonna use the cloud and costs are outta control and. [00:40:39] Vince Menzione: Um, a lot of people pulled back from the cloud and, and a lot of those companies no longer exist. And it’s similar with, with, uh, token maxing, like, oh, these agents are outta control. You have a choice. You can embrace them and figure it out and get governance and, and make your data available. Um, use the partner, central agent, move to agent to co-sell, or you can fade and die. [00:40:58] Vince Menzione: And, and that’s, that’s where we’re at. Uh, is, is the, the companies sitting here today embraced the cloud years ago and won. Uh, and and there’s a set of companies here today who are gonna embrace agents in the, for both buyers and sellers, and will win. And there are those who won’t and they won’t win. And so for me, it’s like we’re, we’re at a, we’re at a crossroads. [00:41:18] Vince Menzione: And, and if you’re gonna win, you gotta leap into that, you know? I love it. And, uh, and, and, and it’s, it means the cost of experimentation is so much lower now. Development and, and even business development or software development is, is agent enabled. And so you can take risks, you can experiment and, and you have to, it’s, it’s an existential moment. [00:41:37] Vince Menzione: Agreed. We’ve got a couple minutes left over for any questions. What do you think? Sure. Are there any here. I think there are a couple. Yeah, we’ve got, we’ve got a co-sell question I’m sure coming up here. [00:41:51] Audience Member: Um, I’m Cassandra, I’m the CEO of Partner Tap. And one of the questions I had was, I think, you know, the co-selling between the sellers is where things get. Really, really hard when you’re multi-partner. And so when I was listening, um, with, you know, the Accenture and Elastic together, you talked about how you had, you, you had to get these BD business development people. [00:42:22] Audience Member: Um, is this a new team that is over the client team? And how do these teams interact like with the elastic sellers? Are you doing a lot of coaching to the field and then with if AWS sellers are, are involved, like what is that whole picture? What does look like, [00:42:43] Allison McFadden: like [00:42:44] Audience Member: on the ground? I mean, that is the hardest part, I think, and that’s what we hear. [00:42:48] Allison McFadden: It’s so, it’s so, it’s so tough. Um, and I will, I’ll just say, so our business development leaders that we now have kind of. Expanded their capacity. They have always been, they have always been there. Um, but they have not been well resourced. They haven’t, they haven’t had very clear kind of job description. [00:43:12] Allison McFadden: I’m gonna say I, in the past they have been kind of focused on partner relationship. And so like more like an alliance manager and maybe working on some of the data. Right? So when I say I have nightmares about Lars, because we’re always trying to increase the LAR for Accenture and, and they were focused like in those detailed weeds of like trying to pass ACE and trying to call the PDM and all this stuff. [00:43:39] Allison McFadden: What we are doing is really pivoting them to be proper sales, business development focused on client outcomes and focused on. Technical skills to be able to describe what this solution is to the field. So, um, and because we need, I have many, many questions about, I gotta get agents to work with Eurogen co-sell so that that part somehow goes away. [00:44:05] Allison McFadden: So that’s a, that’s the thing we gotta solve still, but, um, so we’re pivoting them to be kind of driving. More of that co-sell enablement with the field, um, and taking that message to the field rather than being there, waiting for questions to come in from the field, waiting for like our field teams to discover, oh, I saw something that we’re doing with Elastic, like on a press release on LinkedIn. [00:44:30] Allison McFadden: Right. So we’re kind of trying to pivot them to be more proactive. [00:44:33] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:44:34] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. And uh, Cassandra, that’s an excellent question because I think. Multi-party, you know, sort of tri-party offerings. The hardest part is operationalizing it at scale, right? Yeah. And so for this particular offering, we are basically having three routes to market. [00:44:51] Rekha Thangellapalli: So one is seeing how this offering fits into our existing elastic go to market. And so I am constantly enabling our field sellers to say, okay, within our three field sales place, here’s exactly where this fits in. Here are, you know, uh. Keywords that you hear in customer conversations where you bring up this offering and here’s a process of how it works. [00:45:14] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, exactly At what sales stage do I bring in Accenture, how, you know, what are the roles and expectations? Right? So that’s on the elastic side. We’re doing the same thing on the Accenture side. So we’re doing a ton of training enablement and lunch and learns, and we’re also looking at how do we fit into. [00:45:31] Rekha Thangellapalli: Uh, Accenture’s AI transformation projects, we are the semantic layer, right, of their enterprise brain. And so it’s a whole different sales motion, um, and, you know, having the right assets, having the right process again to make sure that that goes smoothly. And then finally, we’re going directly to the customer. [00:45:49] Rekha Thangellapalli: So we are launching multiple external campaigns where, you know, if the customer raises their hand. We will, we will line up immediately. Right. Um, and so, [00:46:01] Allison McFadden: I mean, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t say how important that third leg of the stool is. ’cause the second part, she talked about getting into our catalog is the first thing. [00:46:09] Allison McFadden: ’cause my BU business development leaders have the catalog. Right. And that’s what they’re selling. So what Elastic has done has gotten into one of those offerings and then. If we have a customer that asks for it, that is the fastest way to alignment. That is like the number one thing that we respond to [00:46:26] Vince Menzione: customer at the center. [00:46:27] Vince Menzione: This is great. Well, I think we’re up to time. This was a great session. I want to thank you. This is what a great, what a great group. [00:46:34] Vince Menzione: Thanks for listening to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. If today’s conversation resonated, share it with a partner leader in your network. Subscribe where [00:46:43] Vince Menzione: you listen, and head over to the ultimate partner.com. [00:46:47] Vince Menzione: For show notes related content and the resources for this episode. And if you haven’t already, now’s the time to register for the Ultimate Partner Live Event in Reston, Virginia, October 26th through October 28th. Until next time, keep showing up in the rooms that matter because being in the room changes everything [00:47:09] I.

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We're back with the third episode in our series on the podcast in which we're working our way through Pam's book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Today, we're continuing our exploration of the deschooling phase of the journey with stage seven: Shifting From Control to Connection. Last time, we questioned our beliefs about learning and now, we’re questioning our beliefs about parenting. We talked about how parenting doesn’t have to be adults vs children, that children are capable of making their own choices, that equal doesn’t mean fair, how quitting is not a failure, and how strong relationships are the key. We also remembered to allow ourselves the time and space to grow and change. Exploring these parenting mindset shifts was so much fun! We hope you find this episode helpful! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE Learn more about Pam's book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It's a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it's a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hello everyone, I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and I’m joined today by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both. And we are back with another episode in our “A Field Guide” series. We are working our way through my book, “The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide”, which is framed around the hero’s journey and is a weave of myths, contemporary stories, and tales from my own journey. And we are deep in the de-schooling phase of our journey right now. In the last episode of the series, which was episode 408, we dug into some of the popular conventional paradigms about learning and found new truths buried in there. And as we continue our journey on the road of trials, in this stage, which is stage seven, we are exploring some unconventional truths about parenting. If you’re newer to unschooling and this is your first time exploring these truths, you’re likely dancing with these ideas more intellectually to just understand what they mean, what are we talking about, and maybe some of the further reaching implications that come along with it. And if you’ve been unschooling for a while and feel like you already intellectually embraced these ideas and have been bringing them into your family’s lives, now’s the time to peel back some more layers to build more connections and contacts around them. Strengthening your web of understanding with your own experiences, building your wisdom around this. And this is where you move towards, what feels to me anyway, believing these truths in your bones, you own them. These are your truths. So, the first truth that we’re going to explore is that parenting is not adults versus children. And right off with that phrase, there are so many aspects to that one truth. Does the conventional approach of pitting adults against children really make sense for us? What assumptions are we making if we believe that to be true? Does it mesh with our experiences with our own children and with the families that we see around us? The presumption of parental power over children is definitely widespread in our culture. We are meant to assume good parenting means power struggles will happen, a battle of wills over whatever the issue at hand happens to be. Yet many of us see right in front of us that it’s a draining and stressful way to live. And that so many adults who grew up in that environment continue to have strained relationships with their parents. That’s always been a curious one for me. So what if, let’s play with what if we choose to drop the assumption that the one right way to successfully parent is to exert power over your child to ensure that they do the right thing at the right moment? It can be challenging when we have little idea of what else to do. Because shifting away from power and control doesn’t mean doing nothing. So to that end, I personally found it really helpful on my journey to focus on connecting with my child rather than directing them. That’s what I could do instead. That helped me shift my energy in the moment to be open to seeing more of what was actually happening rather than that tunnel vision that comes with trying to control something to go one particular way and my way. And to instead get curious about how they were seeing the moment too, recognizing them as other human beings who are with me in this moment, not ones I’m trying to show the right way to go. Anyway, I found this a huge part of my unschooling journey. ANNA: Oh my gosh, it really is this fundamental shift that changes everything. And I feel like we’re handed these ideas about parenting and what the dynamic between parents and kids should look like. This does not feel innate to me. It really feels like something that’s coming from outside. And I truly don’t believe that it feels good to anyone to be locked in power struggles with the people they love most in the world. And I think people press on because they think they’re supposed to. They think this is how it is. This is what I have to do. Even when they have these niggling feelings inside that it doesn’t feel good and I don’t want to interact with my family this way. Because it really just doesn’t make any logical sense. Control, manipulation, and punishments do not work well in any healthy relationship. So take it outside of that parent-child dynamic. It does not work. These are not tools we want our kids to use. They aren’t the tools that we use in our close relationships as adults. So why would we want to bring those tools into the relationship with these beings we cherish above all else? Why would we want to model that? That just never made sense to me. The idea that really helped me the most was understanding that needs drive behaviors. So behind every behavior is an unmet need. Conventional parenting is about controlling behavior, but it never gets at that underlying need where change can actually happen. And if we look for that underlying need and address it, what you find is that behavior that may be offending or challenging at the time can really melt away because the need is being met. And not only that, but it deepens our understanding of each other and our connection. Like you were talking about Pam, that’s how we get to that connected piece by understanding each other. And so for me, that kind of defines the shift from control to connection, from trying to control behaviors, to connecting to understand the needs and address them together. And once there, it just feels better to everyone. And in that environment, we are all learning critical relationship skills that set us up for success, how to express our needs, how to hear another person’s needs, how to problem solve together to meet the needs. That will play out over and over and over again in every relationship in our life, from the clerk at the post office to our closest partner. And that is where I wanted to spend my energy on us all fine tuning those skills together in a safe environment. ERIKA: I agree. This is such a game changer. Moving from that power over dynamic that we’re all so familiar with just from living in our culture, to this place of connection. It just makes such a huge difference in my relationship with my children. And really, like you’re saying my relationship with everyone. And I think it’s surprising to people when they first think about this or first see it in action, because people are not used to this dynamic. I’ve had many experiences, in relating to my kids, friends, with teenagers who are just like, what is this? This is an adult who’s not just trying to tell us to stop, an adult who’s just telling us what to do, or an adult who’s criticizing and judging everything that we do. I’m an adult who is interested in them and wants to hear what they are interested in. And I just have had so many comments like, this is so weird to me, my parents don’t want to hear about this, that I don’t understand this idea of adults who are nice to us. And I think a lot of teenagers have that experience, it really feels like adults are just against them. And so I think it's kind of mind blowing. It really surprises people. But it helps me to remember how I felt when I was a child, and how I felt like I was a whole person, and then people would treat me like I wasn’t, but I knew that I was. And so that feeling is the feeling that kids have. And so the power over dynamic does not make sense to them, it does not feel good to them. We can have people pleasing kids who go along with it. And then we can have kids who push against it, because it doesn’t make logical sense, and it feels terrible. And then about those kids we'll say, Oh, they’re a difficult child or whatever. But kids are people too. We’re all people. And so if I think about how I would have preferred to be treated when I was a kid, that’s a good place for me to start, with respecting children and not wielding my power over them. And what I’ve found in my family is that it’s just so peaceful. Our interactions have a lot more peace, understanding, and mutual respect. There’s not a reason for them to be pushing back so hard against me. There’s not a reason for them to ignore everything I say, because they think I’m just trying to control them. All of those elements that you typically see in mainstream media relationships between teens and adults, it’s just not there. It’s just so much more peaceful. And I think that helps all of us, it helps all of our nervous systems to not constantly be in battle with each other. And it has that feeling of, we’re solving problems together, you’re talking about the underlying needs versus me trying to force my will on to someone else regardless of what they want. And so again, these are our most important, most treasured relationships. So I just think why would we want to bring that power over dynamic into that space that’s so important to us. PAM: I know, I love that. I love all the little bits you guys brought to it. I love having this conversation. But when you think back on, especially, the teen relationships and the teen years, it’s like, oh my gosh, what a huge difference. I didn’t have a lot of conflict with my parents. But I also basically didn’t have a lot of conversations with them at that point, right? Because you knew they were, from best of intentions, but only looking through their eyes. It's about how they think you should do something. So much of it is their baggage from their experiences, right? And I want you to have a better life. It’s almost like inhuman expectations that they share and put on you, like, if I could help my child be the perfect teen into an adult and launch into that whole thing. Those are the kinds of stories that they’re bringing. And yeah, it just feels like one demand after another, right in the conversation. So you don’t start the conversations for the most part. Because you know where they’re going to go. So I, why set myself up for that, right? So that’s the distance that conventionally you see with teens and parents. If we don’t talk, then I'll never know what they’re bringing with those stories. I think when you tweak it to the kid, older kids, like wanting to build their independence, absolutely. That doesn’t mean the connection’s different. The connection is still strong. It’s still there. Of course they can do that. But I think we tend to blame all of that on the teens wanting independence, but so much of it is just because they are bucking against the control, right? ANNA: Absolutely. It’s just so disconnecting. PAM: So, the second truth we are going to dive into is that children are capable of making choices. And this is another one I think can be so surprising for people to discover, right? Because conventionally many parents make most of their children’s decisions for them. Just believing that they’re modeling the right thing to do. And then assuming that their children have learned it and will make those same choices when they grow up and are finally in control of their own lives. And again, most often it’s not done with any malice, right? We love our kids and we want them to learn good choices. But what if we aren’t telling our kids what choices to make? What do we do instead? Again, because it’s not about doing nothing. It’s not about leaving them to their own devices, all these phrases that you hear getting tossed about. It’s about processing with them. What are their questions in this moment? How are they seeing things? What choice makes sense to them? When we aren’t struggling with our kids and are actively trying to nurture that secure and supportive environment, they have the space to consider things from various angles. And make the choice that makes the most sense to them in this particular moment. And have conversations with us about it both before and after the thing. They learn how to make choices by making choices. And I think a key thing to remember as we make this shift in our parenting is to recognize that their choice may well be different from the choice that we would make in similar circumstances. Because, again, people are different. People are so different. I love how different people are. ERIKA: Yes, and I’m so glad you ended with people are different because I really think that is the key here. If I stay stuck thinking that what I would do in this case is the only right answer in that situation, then it can feel impossible to allow my children to make a different decision. But since they’re different people, it doesn’t really even make sense for me to try to impose my preferences on them. Because that takes away their learning. It takes away my learning about them. They can trust me as a sounding board if they want. But if my kids have the space to make their own choices about their own lives, which, you know, maybe that is a big paradigm shift right there, realizing that these are their lives, not mine. I don’t own their life as their parent. Then they can add to their own web of learning about what works for them. So how their choices play out for them will be so much more meaningful if they were the ones who made the original choice. If they’re just doing something that I suggested, and then however it works out, it’s like, why do they even care? It doesn’t really have that same sort of importance to them, because they didn’t choose it. I love the point too, about the opposite of us making choices for them is doing nothing. And it really is not that. It’s being present, building that trust, being trustworthy, being non judgmental about the things that they’re interested in and the things that they want to do. And so they will come to me if they’d like to imagine different scenarios, or if they’re not sure about something. And I know also just by having that connection, when they might need a little push or a little confidence booster, you know, you can do this, you’ve got this. And I know when to trust that even if it doesn’t work out how they thought it would. And sometimes I even know that it won’t. And sometimes I’m right about that. And sometimes I’m wrong about that. But even if it doesn’t work out, I just believe that what they’re learning about themselves and the trust that it builds for themselves, trust in themselves, and then also trust in me that I’m trusting them. There’s just so much trust building that’s happening. I think it’s just huge. ANNA: It really is. I love how you describe that interplay. Because I do think that’s a common first reaction. I’m not supposed to be over involved. So I’m just going to go away. And it isn’t hands off, but it is this what you were describing really being in tune with who they are and trusting in their journey, trusting in your relationship with them. Knowing when you can have conversations and when we can add a little something here. When do I need to just observe or listen or reflect back? And yes, this is where people are different means everything, because we really do tend to think that people see and experience the world in the same way that we do, and that they want to move through the world in the same way that we do. And they just don’t. So how I said it to myself in the early days was that I just don’t know what’s best for another person, even my child, ever. And that just helped stop me and help me stay open and curious about – what is their unique experience here? What are they getting out of this? And it also helped me learn about myself and what things were uniquely mine. And I like how you said, Erika, now, maybe I just lost it. But it’s that sometimes you’re right, sometimes you’re wrong. Sometimes it didn’t work out. But it’s not about it working out, right? It’s just about the unfolding of it, because we’re learning all along the way by just taking a step by trying something. I love that so much that this is even about letting go of some end goal of something that we’re all trying to get to. No, it’s about this exploration and learning about ourselves. And I just find kids are so capable. They know from the start, what they need at any given moment, and if they don’t have a fully formed vision of what that is, they know the next step they want to take, just so intuitively. I saw over and over again, they just don’t have the baggage that we’ve had, that I think can make things so much harder. And I think that baggage, kind of in light of what you were saying, is that we tend to have a fixed goal, like, this is what we’re trying to accomplish, so we have to be tunneling in on this endpoint. And I think kids are much more naturally playing with things and figuring things out. And then, like you said, Pam, oh my goodness, we learn how to make choices by making choices. I don’t know how many times I said that to people when my kids were little. I’m like, how can you say that you want them to make good choices, but you don’t let them make choices? How are they going to learn how to make choices? And in that process of making choices, we do learn what works for us, what doesn’t, when to slow down, when to go full steam ahead, when to pivot. All these things come from the doing, not from being told which decision to make. That just short circuits all the learning, and begins this external orientation that’s actually really hard to break. We’ve talked about this a lot too, that once that external orientation is fixed into you, from school, or even family, it’s really hard to step outside of thinking, what does everyone else want from me here? Versus, what do I want?. And I just found kids to be super capable of solving problems. Earlier I mentioned looking for these underlying needs, they have these best suggestions for solving issues. And I will say, if this is new for your family, it can take some time to develop that trust. Can I really say something here? Am I going to be heard? But it can develop, and with that trust, just like you were saying, Erika, it’s trust, trust, trust all around, everyone feels safe advocating for their needs and really helping each other meet their needs. I just love that. I know it’s a big shift to think that kids know best for themselves, but I truly believe that each one of us knows best for ourselves, and if we can give it some space and observe, you will start to see how different we all are, and how there is this knowing. And I feel like my kids helped me get back to my own knowing. It’s organically there in them from the start, and as adults, we may have to peel back some layers of conditioning, but I think it’s there for us too. PAM: Yeah, I think so. I love that. And I mean, as you were saying that, it just became more and more clear. That giving them the space to make the choices that feel like they make the most sense for them, is such an effective way for them to learn more about themselves, which they bring to the next choice and the next choice. It’s just this beautiful cycle. And then the reminder too, that it can take some time to build up that trust, absolutely, trusting that somebody’s not going to come back and tell them, no, no, no, that’s not the right way, do it this way. Or, see how it turned out after you made that bad choice, I told you so. Okay, so the third truth is, fair doesn’t mean equal. I found this one really interesting to think through. It was so interesting, we don’t want to show favor to one child over another, right? We want all our children to feel equally loved by us, and conventionally, we extrapolate that to treating our children equally. So, like, all kids get one piece of cake, and you’re careful to make them all the same size. That’s just one little example, but it’s like the epitome of fairness, right? But again, people are different, so instead, can we consider what the moment looks like through each of their eyes. How does it feel to each of them? So, I remember when I was thinking this through, I tested this little hypothesis. At the next birthday, I asked everybody how big a piece of cake they would like. And I was flabbergasted, nobody said the whole cake. But, so even as kids, I’d get different answers that really depended on how much they’d liked that particular cake or dessert, whatever we were having to celebrate, how hungry they were at the moment, if they were actually even fancying something sweet, right? So, getting the amount of cake they wanted felt fair to them. They felt seen and heard just by being asked, not just, this is the size that all kids get, and here you go, and, finish it, or you don’t get more. The whole thing, equal does not mean fair. I began to see fairness, not as that quantitative measure of anything that parents give, but as the qualitative measure of the value that each child receives. So, looking back over different seasons, one child may need more of their parents’ time, while another has a passionate interest that needs more of the family’s money to support it. We may be giving each of our children very different things in any particular moment, that take varying amounts of time, of our effort, of our money, but when their unique needs are being met, they each feel secure and happy, they feel seen and heard as who they are. And, in my experience, they do feel equally loved. What a difference, right? ANNA: Oh my gosh, all of these things are so important. This one is huge also, and it’s one I cannot get my mother to understand. It’s funny, because she really does think that doing exactly the same thing for all three of us is fair, and that shows that she loves us the same, and that we’re all equally loved. But gosh, being on the receiving end of that just feels super disconnecting, I don’t feel seen and heard or understood at all. But at this point, she’s 92, so there’s no real changing her, so the three of us will just roll with it. But again, there are three of us, we have a huge age gap, brother, sister, and then I’m the baby, huge age gap. We’re all so different. I think that’s why we talk so much about, people are different, because just understanding how different and unique we all are, just lights people up. They want you to know them, to see them, see their unique gifts and beauty. And so yeah, this whole, everybody needs to be treated exactly the same, does not do that. So, I knew that with this one, I wanted to examine it deeply and do it really differently with my kids. My girls are very different, I just have two, very different, though, and it really would have been a disservice to think in those kinds of black and white, equal is fair, terms. And I think a big part of this is watching my own language, countering the cultural messages about fair, like you did with the cake, right? And so you created a new fair, which is, hey, how much do you want, and let me help you get that. And I think it takes some digging in, to figure out what the need is in any given situation. Sometimes you can just ask, but sometimes there’s a little more to it. And also, just to build the culture of trust, that we will work to meet all the needs, and to recognize our choices in each moment. I think the other byproduct of everyone trusting that they’ll get their own needs met, is actually, they’re pretty happy when other people are getting their needs met too, because we can all celebrate each other doing our own things, and because we know that if we want something, we’ll figure it out, there’s no doubt about that. So, as I was thinking about this one, I’m not even sure you can step away from this kind of equal as fair cultural idea, without moving to a more connected idea of everyone getting their needs met. I think it kind of goes hand in hand, so you don’t have any kind of backlash or misunderstanding about it. ERIKA: Yeah, when I was growing up, we definitely had a huge, equal is fair, message in our family as well. And I think the funny thing is that, by constantly emphasizing trying to make everything equal among the three kids, we became so fixated on looking for the little discrepancies of, like, that’s a little bit more, that’s a little bit less, and we were also focused on it, and it gives you that feeling of scarcity, right? We were always on the lookout for, that’s not fair, how come she got that, I only got this, like, all of those things. And so when I contrast my memories of that with my own children’s experience, it’s just so interesting. From the beginning, I was so careful not to ever indicate that our food, my attention, our toys, whatever the resource was, I made sure I was showing them that there’s abundance, they don’t have to fight over it. And so we provided what we could to each one, but it was what they individually wanted, and, like you both have said, people are different, so I’m not just handing both of them the same thing. Maybe sometimes, and in fact, sometimes that really helps too, to create that feeling of abundance, we don’t need to fight over things, but we don’t need all the same things, we all get what we need. And so, when my kids were younger, my mom would play with them, but it was overwhelming, because if you have little kids, you know, a lot of times they’re both talking at the same time, wanting something, wanting her attention. And I remember she would set a timer. Okay, I’m going to play with Maya for 15 minutes, and then it will be your turn, Oliver, which feels really fair, but it really is just equal, because one might not need the full 15 minutes, and then the other one’s just focusing on what they’re not getting for those 15 minutes. And so, even though it was at times overwhelming in those younger kid days, I did try to just include them both at all times. So I’m hearing them both, you know, kind of being like, oh wow, oh wow, oh, you know, it’s just the spec, and that’s all they really wanted. They wanted to be able to say what they wanted to say in the moment. It was more chaotic, I think, but they didn’t really notice that, they just knew that I was there, they both felt I was there for them, and they don’t have a feeling of competition between each other, and still don't, to this day. And so I feel like many of these paradigm shifts boil down to, people are different. This one feels like that too. If we can recognize that people are different, we know that meeting each person’s needs in our family is going to look different, and that’s what makes a family really interesting and unique. PAM: Yeah, I love that you guys are both pointing out how so much of these boil down to, people are different. And it’s just recognizing that difference and incorporating it into the different aspects, that really is one of the fundamental paradigm shifts. Okay, so fourth truth, and that is, quitting is not a failure. Choosing to quit an activity, I mean, think about it just for a second, it is as much a learning experience as starting an activity. So conventional wisdom says that if we let children quit whatever they want, they will never finish something when the going gets tough, right? They’ll just say, oh, that’s too hard, I’m going to quit. And I see you guys both smiling, that is just not what we see, and I bet you, anyone listening, if you watch your kids in action for any length of time, it’s not what you’ll see either. In fact, if we continue to insist that they finish what they start, what they’re likely learning more fundamentally is to not try out new things unless they’re quite sure they’ll enjoy it. Because they can’t quit it, they’ll have to stick it out, as it were, you committed to this, like, all those kinds of messages. So they’re just going to only want to engage with something that they’re pretty darn sure they’ll be happy to follow through. So what that means is less exploration and less learning. When we favor connection over control, our children gain lots of experience with wanting to try something, choosing different ways to explore it, and seeing how well those different paths meet their goals. They’ll discover things that they like, they’ll discover things that they don’t like, and they will get a better feel for the clues that help them decide when they want to lean into something and when they want to quit and move on. And each time they choose to quit, they’re learning so much. Okay, I just got a rush of goosebumps, because I love this point. How does that choice feel moving forward? Do they miss the activity? If they miss it, that’s not a failure, that’s not wrong. What do they miss about it? That’s more learning. What are they doing with the time that quitting the thing freed up for them? Are they enjoying that? Are they enjoying that more? There’s just so much that comes when you quit something, that’s not the end, it’s not like, you therefore are not allowed to think about it ever again, right? There’s just so much processing that unfolds even beyond that one act, and it’s not forever either. ERIKA: Oh yeah, I think mainstream parenting culture is just so hooked on this. They really want kids to stick it out, and I feel like it’s in this way that we don’t expect ourselves to. And yeah, I think it’s a little short-sighted, right? It’s trying to teach responsibility and commitment and all of these things, but who wants somebody who is committed to something that they’re no longer enjoying? This is a path that does not lead to success, it’s a path that does not lead to good places. I still carry with me some feelings of failure that I have, due to, you know, in quotes, quitting something. I don’t even like the word quitting, because that kind of makes me feel like, I’ll never go back, I quit it. But I don’t view it like that with my kids, they can stop doing an activity and come back to it later, and there’s really no weight to that. But if I look back, I can see that my choices were valid, and that my life path has ended up being amazing, but looking back at certain things, I still feel the pressure and the weight of that, what felt like failure at the time, just because of the messages that I absorbed. Sometimes we don’t know how something’s going to feel until we try it. When we do and it’s not a fit, sometimes it’s an immediate thing, right? Like when I tried taking computer programming in college, I was like, immediately, no, my brain doesn’t do this. For some reason, I thought it would, it didn’t. And so sometimes it’s right away, but sometimes we’re just changing and growing over time. We all know, we’re growing and changing so much, even as adults, but our kids are certainly growing and changing, we see it happen right in front of us. And so maybe it’s like, this used to be great, now it’s not anymore. And so I think it’s just a gift to be able to listen to our inner voice, and make a choice that fits us right now, without that pressure of, this is a forever choice, or this is a failure if I don’t do this. There’s just no one right way to live, and each choice we make, it’s going to lead us somewhere, so we could just try things, quit things, shift gears, dive deep into something, and as long as we’re listening to our own voice, we can trust that we are building a life that works for us. I think we only really get stuck if we’re focusing on the external voices that don’t know us on the inside, and know what we really want and need. ANNA: It really is a clue, that those outside voices are taking up way too much space, because those outside voices, the peanut gallery about the quitting, they’re not the ones that are going to be there doing the thing, they’re not the ones that know how you’re feeling. So it really is just that, slowing down to recognize that and push it away, because this idea of quitting equals failure, is so ingrained, and it’s so counterintuitive, because you’re right, Pam, if kids are forced to stay with something that isn’t working for them, what they learn is to not try, because, I’m going to be stuck with it forever. And they’re so young, you know, they don’t know if they’ll like piano or baseball or that specific art class, there’s so many factors involved, and all the time that they’re stuck in something that they don’t love is time they aren’t getting to try other things to find out what they do love. And I love your point, Erika, that sometimes we know right away, nope, this is not for me, but sometimes interest wanes, right, and we grow and we change, and we’ve gotten what we’ve wanted out of it. I think that’s another thing, sometimes parents get caught up. Oh, but they’re so great at the piano or that sport. But that person, that unique human, has gotten what they want out of that experience, and that’s okay. All of that is okay. And goodness, I mean, I’m 57 and still I want to dabble and try things to get a better sense of if something will work for me. I can get very excited about a lot of different ideas, but until I’m actually doing it, it’s hard for me to say, does it suit me? Does it fit in my life? Do I want this? Is this how I want to be spending my time? And just quickly, if money is your sticking point here, because that's usually a big one for people, we have a podcast about this, but David really helped me move through this one with the financial idea of sunk costs. And so the reframe is that we’re paying for the opportunity. When we go into it with this idea of we’re paying for the opportunity to try this, it feels very different. The value is in learning whether it’s something we’re enjoying versus the value being in getting all of these specific instructions or finishing the class or staying on the team. And if letting the team down is your sticking point, you only have to have played a tiny bit of sport to know that someone who doesn’t want to be there isn’t helping the team at all. And you kind of alluded to this, Erika, like we really don’t want somebody that’s forced to be in any situation, sports or otherwise, or any kind of work. And all of this doesn’t mean that there’s no discussion though, right? Because sometimes there are discussions before, during, and after. And for us, thinking back, if something was a particularly pricey activity,because that happens and kids are like, I want to do this thing. And it’s a year’s commitment for thousands of dollars. We would talk about how we spend that money, where it comes from, what it impacts. Is there another way to learn more about the activity before we commit to something that’s maybe as long or as expensive as that? What I found is that kids are so creative and they often could find their own alternative paths as we’re playing with it and looking different things up. And also just talking to the organization, is there a way we can observe or trial it? People are pretty accommodating when you ask nicely. And I know for me, sometimes it is hard to ask for what I need. I don’t want to bother anybody. I know how busy and hard they’re working to do this program, but I really do find people to be understanding and generous when they can be. And that’s the information we need, right? Is it possible? If not, okay, then that’s another thing to put in the hopper for the decision. And I just love that all of us feel comfortable leaving something that isn’t working. I have seen this play out in all of us over the years. You really just won’t find any of us stuck in jobs we hate for decades, which is so common in our culture. And we know there’s always a choice and there’s always another way. And I think I just have seen it serve my kids and it serves me and David as well. PAM: Yeah. And I think that’s the whole point, with the relationships, with connection being in the lead, those processes are something that we can do actively. Like, okay, you’re stuck in a job that you really don't like, you may end up quitting immediately, but also it can be, you’re disliking it more and more and more over time, but we’re having conversations, we’re making plans. It’s not, well, you know, you have this job, it pays well, or whatever reason we say, oh, you need to stay, et cetera. No, you actually can. That's the control piece coming right back in. We can instead focus on that connection piece. We can talk through it more and even later, it feels lighter, at least for me showing up to something maybe I don’t like, but I know I’ve got a plan to move through it. I know where I’m going to keep talking. It’s not black, white, like we were talking right at the beginning there. And then there was just one other tiny piece. And now did I lose it? I’m trying to think what you, oh, oh, it was about, was it about, it was about like, how much we learn, I think, when, oh, yes, it was, it was, sorry. But it’s something that I love to do. When people come to the network. When we have the quitting discussions, et cetera. And, but then, so we talk about like, once they’re interested in something that may be expensive, I love brainstorming all sorts of ways that you can be involved in it without the expensive class. Because so often, certainly at the beginning of our journey, we turn it into – they’re interested in swimming, swimming lessons. Oh, piano, piano lessons, like dance, dance lessons. That’s our first go-to because that is what we know, right? But there are so many other possibilities that can help them experience the thing that they’re interested in and may or may not at some point want actual lessons for it, but you don’t have to wait for the lesson to become involved. You can go swimming in the public pool. There are just so many possibilities. So I love that piece of just brainstorming ideas and people get very excited and off they go to play and it’s very fun. Okay. Okay. Finally, truth number five, strong relationships are key. It’s not about parenting that parent-child power dynamic in which the overarching goal is to turn out a successful adult, right? It’s about being in relationship with your child. This is a lifelong relationship. We’re two human beings. We’re multiple human beings. That relationship shifts over time as they grow and change, as we grow and change. It looks very different when they’re young versus when they’re in their teens versus when they’re young adults versus when they’re older adults. Even if at any given moment, it feels like things will never change, right? But they really, really do. You can’t imagine when this is ever going to change. And, and getting focused on and fixating on when it will change is going to get in your way. But that’s a conversation for another day. A few years ago, I wrote a very long essay about the value of relationships to learning. And I will link in the show notes to anyone who’s interested. But oh my gosh, when I first came to unschooling because my kids were in school, it was like, oh, how are they going to learn, right? And in the last episode, we talked about paradigm shifts around learning. But I really did come to see pretty quickly that I didn’t need to worry about the learning. What I could focus on was a relationships and this shift from control to connection and recognizing that strong relationships really just drive everything like that was key for me. ANNA: Yeah, I think when we switch the lens to being in relationship, things just change dramatically across the board. I’ve talked about it before, but I would just often ask myself – Is what I’m about to say or do going to help or harm our relationship? That kept me focused on what was important to me. And that litmus test really served me well. Because if I’m tending to the relationship, we’re able to navigate the challenges together from a place of connection. So if I’m wanting my kids to be safe. As parents, we kind of see that as a responsibility. They are safest when our relationship is strong and they can come to me versus rules and punishments to try to keep them safe, which serves to disconnect us. If my kids came upon a situation that seemed a little sketchy, they would ask me about it. They knew I wasn’t going to stop the exploration just off the bat, but that I could be a sounding board and a processing partner as they navigated it. For kids who think they’re going to get in trouble, they may push down those niggling thoughts that this doesn’t feel good or something isn’t right here because they want to learn more. There’s still something intriguing about it to them and they know their parents might deem it unsafe and stop the exploration altogether. And really that puts them in harm’s way without the support of someone who cares about them. And this applies when they’re young and maybe even more so when they’re teens. We always had a policy of, I will come get you no matter what, no questions asked if they ever needed out of something. And they also knew they could use me as an excuse. My mom needs me to come home. Because then it wasn’t about me stopping their exploration. It was about giving them tools, tools to get out of situations if they needed it, tools they could use to explore safely. And that’s just the safety lens. But this really applies to all areas. If we have trusted people in our corner, we’re going to be able to explore and learn more. And I think we can see that in our adult lives too. When we feel supported and loved and cared for, we’re so much more likely to learn and grow. Those basic needs have been met, we’re so much more likely to explore and learn and push the limits of what we can do. And I think that’s the piece that you’re getting at, Pam, right? This is the basis for learning. These relationships really, that is what makes learning happen and easier. ERIKA: Yeah, I think those strong relationships with people we trust helps us in every area of our lives. And it’s the same for our children. And I love the parts about how it helps with safety and with learning. It just makes so much sense. I had a book club with a bunch of unschooling parents, and we were reading Pam’s book together many years ago. And Pam joined us on a call one week. And we were all, I mean, everybody’s like, oh my god, Pam. It was very fun. But I remember having a bit of the conversation, someone felt like they had messed things up, they maybe had an argument with their child, or in some way felt like it was just this negative interaction, it didn’t feel good. And the question was more along the lines of, how can I do better? How can I stop doing that? And Pam’s idea was about how the repair is the important part. Because we’re trying to maintain this connection and relationship with our kids. But we’re humans, and we’re imperfect. And we’re going to say and do things that hurt our children at times, or we’ll say or do things that hurt other people in our lives at times. And so we can let that moment crush us and pull us away from them. And we can just dive into negative self-talk about what a terrible job we’re doing. Or we can see those moments as opportunities to own our parts, own our words and our actions, apologize for the impact, and make the repair with the person that we care about. I get goosebumps thinking about this, because it’s such a more powerful place to be. And it doesn’t require us to be perfect, which we cannot be. But since relationships are so important in all of these ways, when hard things happen in the relationships, knowing that we will be able to move through it, that builds trust between us and the other person. And it gives us more capacity to weather the next challenging thing, whether it’s something outside of our relationship, or the next misunderstanding between each other. And so I always come back to keeping my relationship strong. How can I feel more connected? How can I give my children the feeling that I understand them, and I’m here for them? And it doesn’t always mean I’m talking with them more, or even spending more time together. It’s really figuring out what do they want from me in this particular season? And since they’re unique individuals, what is it that’s helping us feel connected in this moment, in this season? And now that they’re teenagers, we do a lot of reflecting on, remember when that was hard, and we got through it? Things like that. I feel like it really helps us all build resilience and realize that being humans is sometimes hard, and we’re always learning, and I’m always learning. And I feel like me being vulnerable in that way just develops trust between me and my kids. And looking at that, what is going to help us in this moment just to increase our connection is such a valuable place to take a look. PAM: I love that. I love that you brought that up, because yeah, the whole thing, you'd say strong relationships are key. So I need to be perfect at that. I need to do my best at that. That’s the most important thing. I might have mentioned it at the time, the attachment parenting book I had read, because it’s the thing that knocked me, it’s like, oh really? That around 50% or so of our interactions with our children go awry in big ways or in little ways, and that it is the repair that brings us back, right? It’s not trying to avoid it, because imagine what someone feels if they think someone else is perfect. Oh, they’re perfect at that. They make all the right choices. That does nothing but put pressure to be perfect on them. They’ll be putting that on themselves as well. I want to be as good, etc. So, understanding that repair piece, that is so much where trust is built. That we’re coming back, that we’re going to be engaging again. We’re going to be moving through this, and as you said, using those previous examples of times you guys have moved through challenging things, and just bringing those up when new challenging things come up. We may not know how this is gonna resolve, but we know that we’ll find our way through it. We can trust that. So I love that so much, and thank you. Thanks so much to you both for having this conversation. I feel like we touched on a lot of interesting pieces, so I hope people find it helpful. Thanks so much to all our listeners for joining us. We hope you enjoyed this dive into the second stage of the de-schooling phase of our journey as we challenge some of our conventional beliefs about parenting, and we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network to continue the conversation. It is a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents, a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional unschooling ideas, and just explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. And your first month is free, so you can get a sense of whether the community is a good fit for you. We are very excited to welcome you. To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose Network in the menu. Wishing everyone a lovely day. Thanks so much. Bye!

A round-up of the main headlines in Sweden on July 16th 2026. You can hear more reports on our homepage www.radiosweden.se, or in the app Sveriges Radio. Presenter and producer: Michael Walsh

Introducing the All Def SquADD Cast show “Versus". It's a podcast with the OG SquADD! Each week, the SquADD will debate topics and vote at the end to see what wins. Versus airs every Monday and you can download and listen wherever podcasts are found.Special GuestB.T. KingsleyKali ScottJohn GrimesSheldon CalhounThis Week We DiscussDrums vs FlatsPlay Every Instrument vs Speak Every Language Wear The Same Outfit Everyday vs Let Your IG Followers Pick What You WearS/o To Our SponorsBlue ChewThere's a reason BlueChew is the #1 brand for better sex. Experience it yourself at BlueChew dot com.And we've got a special deal for our listeners: right now, when you buy two months of BlueChew Gold you get the thirdFREE with promo code SQUADD. That's promo code SQUADD. You will also receive an additional 10% OFF + Freeovernight shipping on your first order. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information. We thankBlueChew for sponsoring the pod and the bedroom.Ka'ChavaTake your daily ritual with you. Go to kachava.com and use code SQUADD for 15% off your first order.Ka'Chava provides clean nutrition to fuel wherever your day takes you. No fillers. No nonsense.No artificial flavors, colors, or sweeteners. Non-GMO, no soy, no animal products, no gluten, and no preservatives.Cash AppNew Cash App customers can earn $10 if they use code CASHAPP10 in their profile at signup and send $5 to afriend within 14 days. Terms apply.Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partner(s).Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. Cash App Visa® Debit Flex Cards issued by Sutton Bank,Member FDIC, and The Bancorp Bank, N.A., pursuant to a license from Visa U.S.A. Inc. See terms and conditions forthe Sutton prepaid card, Sutton debit flex card, and Bancorp debit flex card. Cash App Green features, Savings,Direct deposit, Round ups, Overdraft coverage and Discounts provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visitcash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures

The Wheel O' Spite makes its world premiere. Max Webster gets the deep dive it has always deserved. And the shed is still not done.Episode 602 starts as a catch-up and turns into something much more — a sprawling, deeply Canadian conversation that somehow connects lawn maintenance, beard oil, a cat with strong opinions, and one of the most passionate music deep dives the show has done in recent memory.The Wheel O' Spite stinger debuts on air for the first time. A spin leads somewhere unexpected. As it always should.Then Kim Mitchell. Max Webster. A Versus segment that most listeners won't see coming. Two legendary guest appearances by the same iconic voice — head to head. Only one can win.Along the way there's Canadian nostalgia you didn't know you needed, a corporate cancellation saga that will make you feel seen, and a Montreal music story that stopped both of them cold.A new patron joins the family. The Wheel has officially spun.This episode features:The world premiere of the Wheel O' Spite stinger — written and recorded by Sean and ToddA Versus segment involving two legendary guest vocal appearances by a very familiar voiceA deep dive into one of Canada's most underappreciated rock careersAngine de Poitrine and a Montreal music story nobody saw comingTodd's shed update — rain, humidity, and a neighbor's suspiciously bare lawnA new patron announcementFind us everywhere: @seangeekpodcastWebsite: seanmcginty.caSupport the show: patreon.com/seangeekpodcast

En este episodio a cargo de Gitana y Gatonejo tenemos como tópico: Versus de Comidas Exóticas. Además, como de costumbre discutimos las noticias más relevantes, mencionamos los juegos a publicarse, y compartimos con ustedes lo que hemos estado haciendo, jugando, viendo, y/o leyendo. 

Introducing the All Def SquADD Cast show “Versus". It's a podcast with the OG SquADD! Each week, the SquADD will debate topics and vote at the end to see what wins. Versus airs every Monday and you can download and listen wherever podcasts are found.Special GuestDonny ComedyDion LackThis Week We DiscussConstantly Have A Sneeze That Won't Come vs An Itch That Moves When You Scratch ItAlways Have Wet Socks vs Always Pants Too BigTake Pictures By Blink vs Record Your DreamsS/o To Our SponsorsBlue ChewBlue chew.comAnd we've got a special deal for our listeners: right now, when you buy two months of BlueChew Gold you get the third FREE with promo code SQUADD. That's promo code SQUADD. You will also receive an additional 10% OFF + Free overnight shipping on your first order. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information.Better HelpDon't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.comSQUADD

Unlocking billions in cloud marketplace revenue. Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ This powerful panel discussion featuring leaders from Google, Tackle, and dbt Labs dives deep into the explosive growth of cloud marketplaces and the radical shift toward AI-driven go-to-market strategies. With hyperscaler backlogs nearing half a trillion dollars, the conversation unpacks how top-tier organizations are transforming their compensation models, aligning executive buy-in, and navigating the complexities of co-selling to capture committed customer budgets. From the rise of AI agents acting as metered SaaS to the essential operational investments required to scale marketplace revenue from 10% to over 50%, this session provides an actionable roadmap for software companies ready to dominate the 2026 partner ecosystem. https://youtu.be/LSj49f5FEII Key Takeaways Hyperscaler backlog commitments represent a massive, nearly half-trillion-dollar addressable market that completely changes the budgeting conversation. Successful marketplace selling requires complete executive alignment, right down to the CFO, and strategic adjustments like spiffing sales teams for marketplace transactions. The AI category is experiencing staggering 18x year-over-year growth, forcing companies to pivot toward an “agent-first” go-to-market model. Shifting from traditional channels to cloud go-to-market demands a multi-year, intentional investment in operations, people, and technology. System integrators are evolving into software companies as they build orchestration agents to manage fragmented, end-to-end workflows. Leveraging cloud commitments bypasses standard 12-15 month budget cycles, allowing for significantly faster deal closures and larger initial lands. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags: Google Cloud Marketplace, hyperscaler backlog, cloud commitments, co-selling strategies, AI agents, metered SaaS, product-led growth, rev ops, B2B sales transformation, ecosystem shift, channel strategy, system integrators, Deal registration, private offer APIs, digital transformation, software procurement. Transcript: Insight to Revenue- The State of Cloud GTM [00:00:00] Dai Vu: These are all things everyone has to do to get to that first five to 10 deals, and then 10, 20, 30% of your business through Marketplace. [00:00:09] Vince Menzione: You can feel it happening. The ecosystem is shifting beneath us, the way Hyperscalers are partnering, how AI is remaking the channel and what it means to win in 2026. [00:00:21] Vince Menzione: Welcome to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. I’m Vince Menzi, own your host, and each week I sit down with leaders at the intersection of technology. Partnerships and outcomes. The voices shaping how ecosystems actually work. We talk about what’s real, what’s changing, and what it takes to lead in this era where the partner channel isn’t just part of the strategy. [00:00:43] Vince Menzione: It is the strategy because being in the room changes [00:00:46] John Janke: everything. Let’s start. [00:00:52] Vince Menzione: And we have an incredible session. The way that we wanted today to, to, to start the day up was like, let’s talk about what’s happening right now and let’s get three leaders in this space to come up and talk about the world and how it’s a rapidly evolving. So I want to invite to the stage dvu from Google is a great friend of Ultimate Partner. [00:01:14] Vince Menzione: Are you guys ready? Are you guys micd up already? Okay, good. Good. John Yanke, the CEO and Founder of Tackle, and Sean Todo, who is an incredible leader with DBT, but also an old friend of mine. We worked together on Microsoft Days. Good to see you gentlemen. Thanks Sean. Great to have you with us. [00:01:37] John Janke: They stuck me on the side ’cause they said I’d block the screen if I sat in the middle. [00:01:41] Shawn Toldo: You still block it a little bit. [00:01:42] John Janke: And that picture’s from like 1985. I, I, we do have to get that. I had way darker hair. It was, uh, 10 year, 10 years at a startup. Makes you turn white. [00:01:52] Shawn Toldo: Mine’s the exact same right now. So it’s all good. [00:01:55] Shawn Toldo: Mine’s AI generated. Yeah. [00:01:57] Vince Menzione: Well, you know, guys, I just took it all off at that point, you know, it’s like good. Yeah, but you lose enough of it. You pull it out over the years. Yeah. So, uh, some really exciting times. Uh, you, we gotta spend some time at you at our breakfast. That’s right. A couple weeks ago. [00:02:13] Dai Vu: A lot of folks here, too. [00:02:14] Vince Menzione: A lot of folks that are here were at that breakfast, and I thought we’d spend a few moments with you talking about all the exciting things that have been happening at, at Google. I mean the, yeah, the businesses just to, first of all, the numbers were house. Outstanding. Congratulations. [00:02:28] Dai Vu: That’s right. [00:02:28] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:02:28] Vince Menzione: Really, some really great numbers. Commitments are off the charts. [00:02:32] Dai Vu: Yes. [00:02:32] Vince Menzione: Crazy off the charts. [00:02:33] Dai Vu: Yes. [00:02:34] Vince Menzione: Yes. Uh, and then there’s a lot happening in this little world called ai, which makes a ton of sense. Yep. I was critical about Google in the beginning because you had all the assets, but Microsoft leaned in first. [00:02:45] Vince Menzione: Uh, but now it’s like things have evolved, uh, quite a bit since those first days. Absolutely. In, in November of 2022. So, uh, take us through a little bit. Let’s, let’s go through [00:02:56] Dai Vu: it. Yeah. I could talk for quite a bit of time because obviously we came out next, yeah. At the end of April, and then we had our earnings announced, but shortly thereafter. [00:03:03] Dai Vu: But, but real quick on next, uh, for folks who attended, uh, you know, the way they framed, uh, the discussion was they showed this AI integrated stack, and that’s how they frame the keynote because we position ourselves as being the only vendor that provides this. Fully integrated stack from custom silicon all the way to the apps and agents. [00:03:23] Dai Vu: And a lot of the announcements were, were focused in those areas. Um, uh, I won’t go through the, the long list, but I think the big ones coming out of next were, uh, certainly the eighth generation TPU we announced, so we actually split this into two specialized chips for training and inference. Uh, so that’s, uh, that was a big piece. [00:03:41] Dai Vu: Uh, but the big one that we announced was this, uh, Gemini Enterprise. Uh, agent platform. So think of it as the comprehensive platform for companies to basically build scale, govern and optimize their agents. And of course, once they have that, they can bring that into, uh, what we call a Gen Gemini enterprise app, which is really the front door for AI for. [00:04:03] Dai Vu: All customers and all employees to manage a mix of agents, um, as part of their daily workflow. And, uh, and a big part of it is, you know, certainly they’ll have some custom agents, but we think a lot of the agents will come from the ecosystem. And obviously there was a big announcement around what we’re doing there. [00:04:21] Dai Vu: Um, and in fact, one of the things that’s interesting is this shows the evolution of, of marketplace in our, in our partnership, which is we’ve taken a lot of the marketplace experience. And brought it into Gemini exp uh, Gemini Enterprise app, right? So search, discovery, uh, the ability to invoke agents, uh, in context. [00:04:39] Dai Vu: I think that’s gonna be very powerful as we think about the evolution, uh, of, of go to market. And then the last thing maybe I’ll highlight is this, um, is. 750 million, uh, investment fund that we’re gonna drive with the broad partnership. So this cuts across all partner types, global system integrators, uh, uh, you know, AI, pure plays, uh, ISVs, uh, the big management consultants as well, uh, because we recognize that partners are gonna be critical to drive business transformation with our end customers. [00:05:08] Dai Vu: So we’re investing around things like. Technical enablement, access to our product teams, access to our FDE for deployment engineers, and then a lot of incentives to drive usage and deployment. So, um, so a lot of, a lot of activity and obviously the ecosystem’s gonna be very critical for us to drive that impact’s. [00:05:25] Dai Vu: Fine. And the last thing, I know we’ve going on and on fine, but the last thing I’ll just mention is just on the earnings announcement, uh, Vince touched on the backlog, so people have been tracking Yeah. Two quarters ago. We were 155 billion on the backlog, and then a quarter later we were 240 billion. And then in the last quarter, just recently, 462 billion. [00:05:46] Dai Vu: So obviously that’s a, a massive signal of customer intent, but more importantly, it’s a, it’s, it’s a addressable market for this ecosystem to go after as well. [00:05:54] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Almost a half a trillion dollars. Yes. In commitment. So a lot, a lot of reason why we should be on the marketplace. [00:06:01] Dai Vu: Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:06:02] Vince Menzione: Um, each of these gentlemen have some things to talk about as well, about their companies and the exciting things that have been happening. [00:06:08] Vince Menzione: I’m gonna start, John, I’m gonna start with you because Tackle has, has transformed quite a bit since the last time you were on stage with us. I thought maybe introduce the company. Take us through the transformation and then we’re gonna do the same thing with Sean with his organization. [00:06:21] John Janke: Yeah. Thanks. Uh, thanks Vince. [00:06:23] John Janke: Great to see everybody. Uh, John Yanke, GM of Tackle at App Direct. So the big news there is Tackle was acquired in Q4 by a company called App Direct, and I think the why behind this app, direct Powers, marketplaces, they run 400 marketplaces around the world for telcos, for ISVs, for system integrators, channel partners. [00:06:42] John Janke: And we were talk like, when you build a marketplace and diagnose this, stocking the shelves is actually really hard. Uh, and we were talking to them about how could we connect the dots between the hyperscaler marketplaces, the iscs we support, and these additional routes to market. Uh, and that became more strategic and we ended up joining forces in December. [00:07:00] John Janke: And since then, the other part that’s really hard when you build a marketplace is how do you generate demand? Uh, so four weeks ago we acquired a company called Partner Stack. And Partner Stack does affiliate content. They have an affiliate content platform that allows you to connect with 150,000 content providers to be able to start to tell your story to drive leads to. [00:07:23] John Janke: Marketplace. So we think there is a tremendous opportunity to continue. We’re in the earliest days. I think the, you know, Jay, I was with Jay at Channel Partners a few weeks ago and he is like, we under called it, he didn’t say this on stage yesterday, but he is like, uh, the 82% growth. He’s like, we totally under called it. [00:07:40] John Janke: Uh, and I think just listening to dies commit level increase mm-hmm. Reinforces the fact that we’ve under called it. But I also think we’re at this tipping point in the market where all of the new capabilities coming out, we have to all rethink our better together stories. So I think the challenge to all partner leaders, it’s like, how do we. [00:07:58] John Janke: Figure that out. So it’s, it’s a, it’s a fun time. As we transform the way we worked. We wrote the first helping people kind of list, launch and sell through the marketplaces. And now to be able to take that to the next level to hopefully unlock the next a hundred billion of marketplace throughput. [00:08:13] Vince Menzione: And are we at a hundred billion? [00:08:15] Vince Menzione: ’cause that was the number, right? [00:08:16] John Janke: I mean that’s, that’s, that’s the number that’s talked about. I mean, we’re seeing the data signals we see, I mean, we will process 20 billion plus this year. Uh, and that number’s growing faster than Jay’s stated number. So I think we’re excited to see where this year lands. [00:08:30] Vince Menzione: We’ve come a long way from three years ago and we all got on stage and talked about marketplaces together. Right. It’s been, it’s been amazing. And then Sean, let’s talk about DBT. You’ve had some excitement. I know some things maybe we can’t even talk about yet on stage. [00:08:43] Shawn Toldo: Uh, yeah, go ahead. [00:08:44] Vince Menzione: No, I was saying I, I could, I’ll pre-announce things, but No, I’m just, uh, tell, tell us about DBT for those who don’t know in the room, sure. [00:08:49] Vince Menzione: Mean Yeah, that might help. [00:08:51] Shawn Toldo: So, uh, Sean Todo, I lead the partner business at DBT. I’ve been here about 18 months. Um, DBT really started as an open source tool. That help data engineers be successful in SQL transformation with cloud data warehouses? Right. And so back even to the Redshift days now into what I would call more the BigQuery, snowflake, Databricks fabric led days, um, DBT is the tool of choice amongst the data engineering community in terms of how they wanna drive SQL transformation. [00:09:21] Shawn Toldo: And so more recently, we kind of jumped into this kind of paid world. Which is why we needed to bring in additional experience leadership around go to market product, sales, et cetera. And so when I walked in the door, one of the things I noticed really quickly was we were running on AWS, which was great. [00:09:40] Shawn Toldo: We were doing some AWS marketplace stuff. We were running on Azure in Europe only. And one of my first strategies was we have to be everywhere, right customer. We have to meet customers where they are. And so we, uh, made some major investments to be on Google Cloud platform to then be able to really take advantage of marketplace, to then really be able to take advantage of the co-sell opportunities that exist in the field from a day, day-to-day AI perspective with Google. [00:10:07] Shawn Toldo: And it has been a hell of a ride. We launched on, uh, Google Marketplace in July of last year. We went to Google next and we were Google Partner of the Year. Wow. For data and analytics in a very rapid way. We’re now in three, uh, data centers around the, the world. So we’re here in the us, we’re in Frankfurt, we’re in uh, uh, UK as well. [00:10:30] Shawn Toldo: And so it’s been a pleasure to work with D and the broader team. Because the enablement we’ve had and the support we’ve had from that group has really helped our growth be up and to the right. The data point I would give is that when I walked in the door, we were 10% of our business from an A RR perspective was transacting through marketplace. [00:10:48] Shawn Toldo: Last quarter we cracked 40%. Whoa. We will be at north of 50, uh, next quarter. [00:10:53] Dai Vu: Wow. [00:10:54] Shawn Toldo: The other piece that Vince was talking about is we’re getting ready to merge with a company called Five Tran. And so there will be a new company name at some point down the road. Uh, pay attention on June 1st for a public announcement around that merger. [00:11:06] Shawn Toldo: Uh, but we’re really looking forward to what we’re gonna be able to do with folks like DI and the Google team as well as others in the ecosystem. Um, ’cause I think in this data world that we’ve played for so long. This trusted foundational element of data and what it’s gonna mean to context in the AI world. [00:11:23] Shawn Toldo: We’re in a very interesting place to really continue our growth rate at a high level. [00:11:28] John Janke: Yeah, that maybe just a comment something there. Start there. I think we, we used to hear people say we wanted to be strategic with cloud, go to market and get to say 10 or 20% of revenue. I think this like 40, 50%. Yeah. Th that’s where people are setting the bar these days. [00:11:43] John Janke: Yeah. So the numbers are getting really crazy. Yeah. Uh, and people are showing up and being like, I have to go big. Mm-hmm. So a huge change over the last few years. [00:11:52] Vince Menzione: Yep. What’s the experience you’re seeing as well? I mean, it, it was a huge amount of buzz at next. [00:11:57] Dai Vu: Yeah. I mean, so interestingly, um, you know, typically when, when people get started on the, on the marketplace in Cosal journey, I always try to caution them and say, this is, uh, this is like a multi-year. [00:12:07] Dai Vu: Yeah. Uh, process. You have to be very intentional. You have to invest. It’s not gonna be a thing where you just list and, and, and, and, and, and sort of this channel opens up. So in some ways, Sean is describing an acceleration that is not common, right? Uh, so they’ve done, we’ve done some amazing things together and we hope to keep that acceleration going. [00:12:22] Vince Menzione: What does that require, by the way? Is it engineering resource? I mean, there’s, I talk about executive commitment and maniacal focus. Yeah. But it’s all those things, right? [00:12:29] Shawn Toldo: Well, all of it. But we went to a QBR in Austin, and I put up a slide and I said, we have to do this. And everybody in our ETE agreed. So when you have a chief financial officer that’s bought into the partner business. [00:12:43] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. And I guess qualifying coming into this role at this company, I qualified the C-level staff. Uh, like are they really serious about partner or not? And it’s one of the reasons I took the role. So I think executive commitment was one thing. I think the second thing is we were really well supported, um, by the Google team across the board, right? [00:13:02] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. So folks, Indy’s team that we would work with regularly on, these are the things you need to do to have an effective marketplace offering. Here’s what you need to do operationally with folks like John and team and others that are in the market, right? That helped us a ton to be able to scale. And then the other thing that we did is we changed comp. [00:13:20] Shawn Toldo: So from our VP of sales levels down, we have a 5% kicker for everything that goes through marketplace. [00:13:26] Vince Menzione: Hear [00:13:26] Shawn Toldo: that everyone. So as soon as we incented the sales team, I love that, right? We, we created the foundation on the partner side, but then from top down on the sales side, they were all in. And as a result of that, the question would become, okay, which marketplace stage two sales cycle are we gonna go use? [00:13:42] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:13:43] Shawn Toldo: Who’s the right partner to go partner with? And then my team is reaching out to make sure that co-sell connection happens. [00:13:48] Vince Menzione: That is such a best practice, Sean, to, because there is, as a seller out in the field and we talk about, you talk to John, talks about rev ops all the time. But getting rev ops eng getting the field engaged in the right way. [00:14:01] Vince Menzione: ’cause it feels like it’s more work for them. ’cause they have to think, they have to have more conversations with their customer about their cloud commitments and things like that. Mm-hmm. And then getting them incentive to do the right things. The right behavior. [00:14:12] John Janke: Yeah. It’s a strategy process. People, technology problem. [00:14:17] John Janke: Yeah. It’s not just some flip API automation, go list something if you don’t like that top down view. I think the other thing. Like there’s a, there’s a theme in startups where VCs fund second time founders. I think Sean and team have done this before and they took a lot of learnings over the years and reapplied them, which I think helps them go faster. [00:14:36] John Janke: It’s like that second time. Yeah. Second time cloud go to market Founder theme. [00:14:41] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we could talk about the platform and all the changes there on the. The, the commitments and everything. Mm-hmm. Uh, what separates ISPs generating real incremental revenue on your, in your marketplace? What, what do you see? [00:14:58] Dai Vu: Yeah, so I mean, I, I think there are a couple things. Number one is, uh, the, the foundation has to be, uh, this better together story, uh, with Google Cloud. Um, so this idea that what, you know, what do you bring, what does the Google platform bring and how does that drive impact with customers? And I think this is the reason why Sean and DBT Labs has been very effective. [00:15:16] Dai Vu: ’cause our field recognized they, they can recognize that better together story and communicate it to their customers. So I think that’s the foundation. For everything. Right. And I think as you get started, uh, you know, we do tell partners that they probably need to lean in a little bit, uh, in terms of focus, uh, you know, pick a vertical, a customer segment, um, you know, a geography where they’re particularly strong and, you know, get that momentum going. [00:15:39] Dai Vu: And once you do that, the field knows about it and starts to pull you into deals. Um, so I think that’s the other big opportunity. And then the other thing I just mentioned. Which, uh, the panel already touched on, which is be very intentional around all the things you need to do to invest. Whether it’s like, uh, you know, the business functional alignment, uh, the policies around like, uh, pricing and, and comp, uh, making sure you have the operational capabilities. [00:16:02] Dai Vu: These are all things everyone has to do to get to that. First five to 10 deals, and then 10, 20, 30% of your business through marketplace. And not to, not to top you Sean, but our very top partners are driving 80 to 90% of their business on marketplace. And in fact, some of these partners are actually only marketplace first, uh, uh, because they started out that way. [00:16:21] Dai Vu: Obviously it’s the bigger challenge if you have an existing channel, you’re trying to shift that. But, uh, the aspiration to be more marketplace focus, uh, is up there. [00:16:28] Shawn Toldo: So I just set a new goal for the business plan for me. So that’s exciting. I love it. Looking forward to seeing you in six months on that. [00:16:35] Shawn Toldo: It’s good. [00:16:36] Vince Menzione: I love [00:16:37] Dai Vu: it. Work together on that. [00:16:38] Vince Menzione: Well, di I’m just gonna add, add this because I, I got to see operationally with some of the things you do. Mm-hmm. You, you have an overlay organization. [00:16:45] Dai Vu: Yes. Yes. [00:16:46] Vince Menzione: And so you put accelerants in place within your own organization Yeah. To drive the ISVs into the, into the lines of business. [00:16:54] Vince Menzione: Right. You have, you, you do some of that to accelerate. [00:16:57] Dai Vu: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think this is somewhat unique. I don’t, I don’t wanna speak to the other [00:17:00] Shawn Toldo: hyperscalers, [00:17:01] Dai Vu: but we do have, um, uh, you gotta know the field roles, right? [00:17:04] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. So [00:17:04] Dai Vu: obviously at Google Cloud in the regions, we have, uh, ISV sales specialists who are effectively quoted on marketplace revenue, right? [00:17:12] Dai Vu: So they’re a hundred percent focused on that. And, uh, in addition to that, uh, we also have these, uh, co-sell teams, partner teams where, you know, opportunistically if there’s an opportunity, uh, in a, in a, in a particular area. This team is responsible for connecting the regional sales leadership, uh, the regional, uh, sales teams with, with the partner on the opportunity. [00:17:32] Dai Vu: So there’s a lot of things we’re doing to sort of accelerate that. And of course, the foundation for all this is, you know, our, our, you know, registering deals. And as you definitely get started on that, it’s very important to be very mindful around when you register deals. Uh, be very clear around what the ask and the engagement is with the field reps. [00:17:51] Dai Vu: But once you have that going and get the right rhythm, it becomes sort of a natural way to sort of register all your deals and get that engagement. And then, um, and then maybe the last thing I would say is it isn’t always the sales specialists. It’s, you know, the FSR, our field sales rep as well as our customer engineers are also very motivated. [00:18:08] Dai Vu: To work, uh, with, uh, with our partners because they know that this, you know, whether it be solution completeness or it’s part of a bigger workload or helps unlock greenfield opportunity, they really are motivated to engage with the partners. [00:18:21] Vince Menzione: Nice. [00:18:22] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. I’ll just add, I’ll just add to that statement too. I think, um, it’s one thing to have a story as it relates to. [00:18:30] Shawn Toldo: Google Cloud and what you do with marketplace. It’s another thing to have a story in terms of how you impact data and analytics in our world. And there’s a set of specialist sellers inside of Google mm-hmm. That really care about us because we drive a lot faster consumption of big query. And our ability to tell that story across the world effectively has really created a pull now. [00:18:54] Shawn Toldo: And so I, I would say it’s almost, you know, back to, you know, being 12 years at Microsoft and watching kind of that. Phase and how that went. As we went to the cloud and we picked specialty areas, um, Google is doing that as well and they’re doing it extremely fast in a very, very productive way with partners. [00:19:12] Shawn Toldo: And so, you know, I’ll get comments from like Levi who runs west in north region for us, and he’s a, he was at Google next and he was like, I, I gotta, I, I just gotta go to bed. I’m tired. Like we wore him out over two days with their sales team and gave him a host of follow ups and actions related to specific sales areas as well as specific accounts. [00:19:34] Shawn Toldo: And I think that’s the other thing that, um, Google’s done a good job of, but we’ve pushed and we’ve had to work really hard to earn that seat at the table. To help make those people successful from a comp perspective inside of Google as well. [00:19:45] John Janke: Yeah, and this is a huge failure zone for partners with the clouds because they think enablement’s a one and done thing. [00:19:51] John Janke: Like I did a training for the field and I told them the better together story. That doesn’t work. Like you have to literally. Have consistency around this message every day. Oftentimes you need experts who can partner with your reps to give them the confidence. ’cause they may be able to ask the first line question, but someone asks a follow up and they fold up ’cause they know your product. [00:20:11] John Janke: That’s right. They don’s don’t understand all of the nuances of Google and the clouds and the questions that may come back. But if you do that well, it is a huge unlock. [00:20:20] Vince Menzione: Talk about the coaching you provided on the tackle side of that as well and kind of helping. Through this maturity model? [00:20:26] John Janke: Yeah. I mean we, we, over the years, I mean we started as a pure SaaS company and over the years our customers would consistently ask us for more help and we would struggle to figure out how to do that, and we had to invest in services and we actually acquired a company. [00:20:42] John Janke: Five years ago now, that was the foundation. Aaron Feiger, who’s in the room. The core consulting was the foundation of our services business. And that continues to evolve with us. And you know, we see customers at scale saying, I wanna operate my cloud, go-to market really consistently, and I want you to do all the backend operations so my teams can be outselling our products, selling the better together value with Google and others, and not have to figure out how to run the machinery. [00:21:09] John Janke: So we’ve invested a lot there. We have services around strategy, like how to help people think about their business strategy and translate it into a better together story and able to get executive buy-in. And then we have coaching, which is really a phone, a friend, because I think these things get complicated. [00:21:24] John Janke: And I had a customer who was doing the largest deal in their company history. It was the end of the quarter and it was Friday, and they’re like, this is going to be the most complex transaction we’ve ever done and we have no idea how to do it. Our team gets on the phone with them, they work through, what are you selling? [00:21:40] John Janke: How are you selling it? Is your listing set up the right way? Can we actually create all the offers? In a way you have confidence to execute. ’cause those are failure modes. You try to build a cloud, go to market business, and you mess up the largest deal in the company. On the last day of the quarter, uh, that’s something you can’t recover from. [00:21:55] John Janke: So we try to really wrap support around our customers to help them have the confidence to grow. [00:22:02] Vince Menzione: Di you’ve seen tremendous growth in marketplace. Mm-hmm. We don’t publish the numbers specifically. Yeah. We kind of try to figure it out on the back end, but [00:22:09] Dai Vu: Yep. [00:22:09] Vince Menzione: I know you’re accelerated. Your, your marketplace numbers are astounding. [00:22:13] Dai Vu: Yes. I can share some numbers, if that’s [00:22:15] Vince Menzione: okay. Please. Yeah, let’s go. [00:22:18] Dai Vu: So, um. I would say that for a few years now, we’ve been talking about growth. So we’ve been consistently, uh, you know, north of a hundred percent year over year growth. Uh, for the last few years we’ve been processing, uh, what I say, uh, billions of dollars, uh, annually and, uh, uh, millions of transactions. [00:22:36] Dai Vu: And again, that’s for a few years now. Now for 24 to 25, that full year we also doubled. Wow. Uh, which is, uh, which is amazing when you think about the scale in which we operate. But more importantly, if you look at specific category areas, right? So, you know, historically, marketplace has always cater to, uh, those solution pillars that are tied to cloud migrations, like, uh, like security and data and analytics. [00:22:59] Dai Vu: And those continue to be very strong areas for us. But the biggest growth area is, uh, is in the areas of business app. So obviously, you know, the, the ServiceNow workday, uh, Salesforce of the world, as well as the AI category. So one number that we threw out next was 18 x. Year over year growth for the AI category. [00:23:17] Dai Vu: Wow. So in one year now, a lot of it is models, right? So foundational models with our, with our ecosystem. But a lot of that is around agents. So this whole agent go to market model is gonna be, continue to grow and it’s gonna be a huge focus area for, for the coming years. [00:23:32] Vince Menzione: Fantastic. Yeah. Fantastic growth. [00:23:34] Shawn Toldo: Yeah, and, and I’ll add, Diane and I talked about this at Google next. This is a. Very complex thing for DBT, where today we sell seats. [00:23:42] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:23:43] Shawn Toldo: To data engineers. [00:23:44] Yeah. [00:23:44] Shawn Toldo: And now we have all these agentic things that are hitting our engine. And di and I are talking and we’re like, okay, so how does this work in an ag agentic marketplace? [00:23:54] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. Kind of a scenario. And what should we build? Where should we play it? ’cause we’re gonna spin the meter in a different way, so to speak. [00:24:01] Dai Vu: Yep. [00:24:01] Shawn Toldo: And so candidly, we got stuff to figure out related to that. Um, I think what’s been fascinating for DBT is our partner ecosystem changed overnight. So now it’s like I talked to x.ai on Monday. [00:24:15] Shawn Toldo: Mm-hmm. We got time with open AI on Thursday and we have a call with Anthropic and our, uh, CEO and co-founder and uh, chief Product Officer next week. [00:24:26] Vince Menzione: Mm. [00:24:27] Shawn Toldo: We don’t have anybody managing those partners. [00:24:29] Vince Menzione: Right. [00:24:30] Shawn Toldo: Today our focus is on managing the large, uh, hyperscalers plus Snowflake and, uh, Databricks. [00:24:36] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. [00:24:36] Shawn Toldo: And then the SI ecosystem and some tech partners. So we’re having to like, to your point on Agile yesterday. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like we’re having to change our strategy, operating model and organizational model to support that. And candidly, we don’t have all the answers yet, so we have a lot of things to figure out fast, which is a little bit scary. [00:24:54] Shawn Toldo: And challenging, but it’s also a huge opportunity we have to kind of embrace and get into. Yeah. [00:24:59] Vince Menzione: And they’re figuring out as well. ’cause they’re, they’re new to partnering as well. Yeah. As organizations [00:25:03] John Janke: and these AI agents. I think to demystify for a lot of people, and what Sean said is totally right. [00:25:08] John Janke: They’re disrupting everyone’s business model. But in reality from a marketplace standpoint, they’re metered SaaS. This is a thing that’s existed for a long time. Yeah. They look like product-led growth products. There is a lot of patterns around how product-led growth products work in marketplace. Mm-hmm. [00:25:24] John Janke: But you have to bring your business strategy, your product and pricing strategy to those two categories. Metered SaaS and product-led growth. Put that all together to get cross-functional alignment. So we are seeing like. A lot of people get tripped up here and it really does go back to more of the company strategy, product strategy questions, and a lot of partner leaders are not in the room for those conversations. [00:25:48] John Janke: So I think at, at this point in time, as you see big pivots with the partners to go all in on agents, you have to go elevate. Those discussions to be like, what is our plan here? ’cause I, I mean, pricing and packaging will be the thing that trips almost everyone up. [00:26:02] Dai Vu: If I could, if I just build on what John John mentioned, um, so I do agree. [00:26:06] Dai Vu: P it looks a lot like POG, but, uh, but the difference I think is POG has. More historically been in like the data and developer space, now it’s like the general business user, right? So this idea that you want a business user to be able to search and discover, um, agents that could actually be part of their like everyday workflow is going to be very critical. [00:26:26] Dai Vu: And uh, you know, I do think that when we think about the ecosystem building agents. Uh, you know, a lot of the ISV partners aren’t necessarily gonna own end-to-end workflows, right? They’ll, they’ll have a very specific, uh, domain and scope area, but you have to enable yourself to be orchestrated and managed by, you know, orchestration agents or, or, or meta agents that are gonna span end, end workflows. [00:26:49] Dai Vu: And sometimes that includes system integrators and, and others who can stitch that, that automation. So I think, I think that’s, that’s one piece of it. But the other area that I think is gonna be different is, um. There’s going to be a lot of agents. I mean, literally you’re gonna have a very fragmented set of, uh, uh, of players, right? [00:27:07] Dai Vu: It’s not just gonna be the incumbents, it’s gonna be a lot of disruptors and, and, and, and startups. And so the, uh, for the incumbents in the room, it is a mandate that you need to, to innovate because if you do not identify and go to like an agent first, go to market model. Uh, you’re gonna be, you know, disintermediated. [00:27:25] Dai Vu: Somebody’s gonna go build an agent that’s going to leverage you as a dumb database. Um, and they’re gonna own the workflow. So you have to, you have to push the, the, the, the limits here. And I think it’s creates a big opportunity for everyone in this room. [00:27:39] John Janke: I’m going off script. I’m curious. Let’s do it. I’m curious on your take on the system integrators. [00:27:44] John Janke: ’cause I think this, this puts like they’re all, a lot of them are creating agents for people and I think that’s turning them almost more into software companies than they’ve ever been. [00:27:53] Dai Vu: They are, and I think they’re, you know, obviously they’re being, uh, impacted from like, you know, typical like, you know, SOW you know, time and materials type type business models. [00:28:02] Dai Vu: But I do think they play a big role because a lot of the system integrators are bringing, um, you know, vertical and business process expertise. And, um, like I said, I said before, a lot of the ISVs are not gonna necessarily have big enough scope in their area to own end-to-end workflows. And that’s really the promise of agents, right? [00:28:20] Dai Vu: You really need. This cognitive, you know, reasoning, planning, executing across end to end workflows. And I think, you know, the system integrators are gonna bring that capability either, either through, you know, these custom, uh, orchestration or meta agents or if they’re able to productize that and bring that to a model, they can also sort of go through the marketplace model as well. [00:28:41] Dai Vu: So who knows is how it’s gonna evolve. But you know, we’ve always been talking about. Marketplace being a broader opportunity for all partner business models. And I think that will extend to not only, uh, you know, traditional sort of, uh, sell and services partners, but also some of these system integrators as well. [00:28:58] Shawn Toldo: If I could comment on that, please. Yeah. I, I was in London two weeks ago and we did an SI partner day. Mm-hmm. We had 25 sis in a room, probably about 50 people. We had no, um, hyperscalers or cloud data warehouse providers. And when we started talking about open data infrastructure. The role that they can play. [00:29:17] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. [00:29:18] Shawn Toldo: Cross platform in a cost efficient manner for customers and the advisory orientation of that. They all leaned in and we, we stopped talking and they started talking. [00:29:28] Vince Menzione: Right. [00:29:28] Shawn Toldo: So they’re all facing this kind of same problem, which is actually causing a little bit of a shift, I think, in how they think about, I’m a Databricks partner. [00:29:38] Shawn Toldo: Uh, you sure you wanna do that? [00:29:39] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:29:40] Shawn Toldo: So this, this whole thing that’s kind of evolved in the last six to 12 months, when you kind of pick one horse to ride, I, I would tell you be cautious about what that means. You may pick a horse to lead with mm-hmm. But you’re gonna have to flank yourself a bit in terms of other providers that can help you be successful with that, that that partner you’re gonna roll with. [00:30:00] Vince Menzione: So you’re suggesting data vendor agnostic. [00:30:04] Shawn Toldo: I’m suggesting you really have to think about your strategy. Yeah. Because I think the AI, AI disruption is gonna make you think about that strategy. [00:30:13] John Janke: Yeah, I mean there’s, someone mentioned anthropics First Partner Summit. I was not there, but I’ve heard from a bunch of people were there. [00:30:20] John Janke: You know, they had a hundred partners in the room. 95 of them were system integrators. Five were technology companies, the three Clouds, Databricks and Snowflake. Like if you just think about the, the one of the major disruptors in ai, ISVs, were not in the mix. So I, I think, are they trying to disrupt all of us? [00:30:40] John Janke: Uh, do they need us? And they haven’t figured out how to work with us. I, I think. It’s, it’s, [00:30:44] Vince Menzione: and I’ve heard they only have five people in their partner organization, so I just, it’s, [00:30:49] Shawn Toldo: it’s 11 now, but it’s 11, [00:30:51] Vince Menzione: so it was five [00:30:51] Shawn Toldo: last growing fast in the, in the new company I have 50. So like, to put it in perspective, they have to make some pretty big priority. [00:30:59] John Janke: Yeah. And everyone’s been there a hot second, [00:31:00] Vince Menzione: like, right, exactly. Yeah, they, well, we will talk about the learnings we’ve had over the years, getting to where they need to get to. It’s exciting times. We got a lot to talk about here. Um, I, you know, we have about 15 minutes. I I, I want to kind of gauge, ’cause we could talk, we, we have a few things we could talk about, I could ask about, but I want to see if there’s an, like, an interest in opening up to the room for questions. [00:31:25] Vince Menzione: ’cause I feel like we’ve got a very interesting group here. [00:31:28] Shawn Toldo: You got a hand here? [00:31:29] Vince Menzione: Uh, are there hands that wanna Yeah, there’s some people that wanna ask some questions. So Yeah. We have a mic? Yeah, [00:31:37] Dai Vu: we have [00:31:37] Shawn Toldo: a mic. We, [00:31:37] Vince Menzione: we [00:31:38] Shawn Toldo: got one here. [00:31:38] Vince Menzione: We got one here. One here. Thank you. Sorry we went off script, but [00:31:44] Shawn Toldo: that’s fine. [00:31:45] Vince Menzione: It’s fine. [00:31:45] Dai Vu: Off [00:31:45] Vince Menzione: script. Better is good. [00:31:46] Shawn Toldo: I’m sure you planted the questions outta anyway. It’s okay. We [00:31:48] Vince Menzione: did, we did. [00:31:55] Audience Guest: Okay. All Eva, Sean Lightner, quick question to your, uh, increase on the marketplace, and you said you spiff the salespeople by fifth percent. 5%. Mm-hmm. So, and that obviously drives a very large adoption of, uh, marketplace transactions. How are you accounting for the margin you’re losing on, uh, you know, going through the marketplace? [00:32:14] Audience Guest: And also have you done analysis? I’m sure you have, how much is, uh, shape shifting or shifting from existing versus incremental? [00:32:22] Shawn Toldo: Yeah, it’s a great question. Um, um, lemme make three points. Number one, the backlog statement makes the margin statement not matter. So do you wanna play in that space where a customer’s already bought or not? [00:32:36] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. Or do you wanna force a budget conversation that you have to drive on your own in a direct model? That to me, I think it was 484 4 62 [00:32:43] Dai Vu: 4 6 [00:32:44] Shawn Toldo: 2. [00:32:44] Vince Menzione: That’s new Tam available to you? [00:32:46] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. That, that’s just with one. Right. And we are, we are, uh, running on four marketplaces. So that just increases our tam and makes our, our sellers lives easier. [00:32:55] Shawn Toldo: So on that piece, yes, there’s an expense, but we believe it’s right for growth. So there’s a balance there. Um, I think the, and then the second part of your question again. Sorry, [00:33:05] Vince Menzione: shapeshift. [00:33:05] Shawn Toldo: Oh, shift. We, we actually don’t think we would’ve won the business. So if I go back to our Q4 and I can probably point to three or four deals that went, um, Google Marketplace, we would not have won those deals because we couldn’t have created the budget cycle and that quarter. [00:33:23] Shawn Toldo: To make it happen. Generally a budget cycle is gonna take anywhere from 12 to 15 months. Bingo. Because of the spend that was available to us, we were able to close it in that quarter, and we had the largest Q4 in company history. [00:33:35] Vince Menzione: That is such an important point. I’m sorry. [00:33:37] Dai Vu: Okay. [00:33:38] Vince Menzione: But I, I just wanna, that is such an important point of the budget cycle. [00:33:42] Dai Vu: Yeah. [00:33:43] Vince Menzione: Being a year to a year and a half versus being able to tap into a commitment that’s already been made. Yeah, so I just emphasize that [00:33:51] Dai Vu: I was, I was just gonna add real quick, even, even when we see sort of a, uh, a channel shift renewal, which is, you know, it’s on partner paper and it moves to marketplace as part of the renewals, we do consistently see that the, uh, renewal rates on marketplace and the incremental a CB on the expansion and new opportunities tend to be better when it’s on the platform marketplace than than offline. [00:34:12] Dai Vu: And that’s why partners choose to continue to drive renewals on marketplace at a reduced to rev share. But uh, because they see that that growth, [00:34:20] John Janke: we, we, sorry. [00:34:22] Shawn Toldo: We see that as well. Yeah. And I would also make the statement on our land business, when we go through marketplace, we are two x higher across marketplaces. [00:34:30] Shawn Toldo: We’re three x higher with them. [00:34:32] John Janke: Yeah, I think separate new from renewals and then instrument deeply. [00:34:37] Shawn Toldo: Yeah, [00:34:38] John Janke: go proactively talk to your CFO and your head of rev ops to understand their mindset. Because I was with a billion dollar seller a couple weeks ago, their CFO still creates friction in the process, even though they’re selling a billion dollars through these channels. [00:34:52] John Janke: But when they broke it down, their deals are three times bigger. They do them faster. They use more components of the product, which I thought was a really cool one. So customers who buy this platform, many component platforms through a marketplace, end up using six components of the product. Versus a normal land customer who uses two increases gross in net retention. [00:35:12] John Janke: So you have to get to the point where you have the data and you can tell that story real really clearly to your finance team to get support ’cause that they will trip you up if you don’t get them on board. [00:35:23] Vince Menzione: And you’re saying there’s friction in that company. I’m just kind of curious ’cause a billion dollar company. [00:35:27] John Janke: There’s a billion dollar marketplace seller [00:35:29] Vince Menzione: market marketplace company. That’s what I meant. Yeah. But, but the fact that this, their CFO friction, like, is it, is it because they’re not doing a good enough job or? [00:35:37] John Janke: Uh, in, of educating, I, the root of the question is from this person is, would they win without it? [00:35:44] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:35:45] Shawn Toldo: Oh, and is it worth the three points? [00:35:46] John Janke: Right. It’s, it is And, and I think some pe like to me, it’s the cheapest channel in the world. Yeah. Like with committed budget and people to support you winning. Like the, that formula, the math is so simple. [00:35:57] Shawn Toldo: Yeah. For, for a company of our size to go to like the classic resell ecosystem, I gotta walk in with 30 points. [00:36:02] John Janke: Yeah. [00:36:03] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:36:03] Shawn Toldo: It, it’s an illogical conversation. Outside of public sector and growth, you know, geos around the world. And so I, I’ve been lucky to have a CFO that I haven’t had that challenge with, at least at DBTI should say. [00:36:19] Vince Menzione: Really great insights. I think we have, we have another hand up here. [00:36:28] Audience Guest: Yeah. Thanks Susan. The question is for Dai. Uh, my name is Latif Hamani. I’m the founder of Partner System ai. Um, so what we’ve done is we’ve built a, a co-sell AI agent mm-hmm. That your partners can use to Yeah. Reduce all the friction in the co-sell with you. Uh, the questions that I have is, I guess I should back up, so XAWS Madison with a very large alliances, and then I worked, went on the other side. [00:36:55] Audience Guest: For software companies, and even though I had an operational team, I was spending two to three hours on on the keyboard, right? Mm-hmm. Deal registration, emails that can’t be automated, et cetera. So the question that I have for you is, I’d love for you to validate that. You know, unless you are one of the big companies, one of the big enterprises, if you go to the lower end of the enterprise or the mid market, uh, would you validate that there is a challenge? [00:37:20] Audience Guest: There’s a lot of friction for a smaller company. Mm-hmm. Uh, ’cause these marketplaces are complex. Yeah. The cosell is complex. Uh, that there’s an opportunity to really break down that friction with some automation and ai. [00:37:33] Dai Vu: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, we have already been, uh, part of the journey to remove some of the, uh, the friction as part of that selling and purchasing journey. [00:37:43] Dai Vu: Uh. We’re not quite there yet. But, uh, we’ve done things like we have, uh, you know, private offer APIs. We, uh, we have co-sell, uh, registration automation. Um, you know, we have tools like, uh, propensity to buy, tooling to help, uh, partners do, uh, more targeted efforts. Um, but the a i piece is still coming. Um, so I think, uh, the idea here is that we have launched a number of agents as part of our, um. [00:38:08] Dai Vu: Uh, part of our, uh, Google Cloud Partner network, partner hub. Uh, so these are, uh, agents that are gonna do a bunch of things to help partners as part of their workflow, but we’re gonna extend this to the marketplace and ISV area as well. Uh, so I think there’s a lot of opportunity. So, uh, I know there’s probably a lot of feedback in friction, uh, in, in certain parts. [00:38:29] Dai Vu: So we can, we can go tackle together. [00:38:32] Vince Menzione: Hey. There you go. There was a little [00:38:34] Dai Vu: plug [00:38:34] Shawn Toldo: there for tackle. Exactly. [00:38:37] Dai Vu: Uh, and I wanted, and just to be clear, I want to take a look at it from the end to end, uh, uh, flow, right? It shouldn’t just be just marketplace. It should be all the way from like, you know, top of the funnel, demand generation, all the way to like post transaction follow up. [00:38:51] Dai Vu: So we really need to take a look at, at the, the end, end flows and figure out a way we can remove some of that friction [00:38:56] Vince Menzione: three sense. [00:38:57] Dai Vu: Yeah. [00:38:59] Vince Menzione: Any more questions [00:39:00] Audience Guest: back here? Hey. Hey guys. This, this is a really good discussion. Uh, di this question’s primarily, uh, from, I’m interested in the hyperscaler response. [00:39:09] Audience Guest: Yep. Uh, but all of you, uh, can you talk about the patterns or say more about the patterns between. Um, the consumption of just platform capabilities versus industry workflows. Mm-hmm. And how industry where I, I mean, I, I, my sense is that industry workflows are becoming more [00:39:27] Dai Vu: Yeah. [00:39:28] Audience Guest: Uh, the easier thing for enterprises and SMBs to buy. [00:39:33] Audience Guest: Yeah. Especially SMBs, I think. Um, but say more about those patterns that you’re seeing develop and kind of what is. Uh, who are, where, where are those kind of, where is the demand being driven? Is it, is it, yeah. The search and discover in the marketplace, or is it being led by field sales of mm-hmm. Either GCP or partners? [00:39:55] Dai Vu: Yeah, so let me, I’ll mention a couple, a couple areas where, where it’s growing. So I think number one I mentioned before about some of these large horizontal business apps that we’re partnering with, right? Um, and, uh, and of course the fact that we’re, we’re, we’re transacting them through marketplace is, is a huge. [00:40:14] Dai Vu: Evolution from a few years ago. So who would’ve thought you would be buying like, you know, a hundred million dollars a CB deals, uh, through, through marketplace with like a Salesforce or a ServiceNow workday. But it’s happening now. And to be clear, all these. Horizontal business app. They’re not doing this in a very, you know, opportunistic, transactional way. [00:40:32] Dai Vu: They basically see marketplace and cloud go to market as a strategic growth lever for them. So that’s one big area. So from just a pure large deal perspective. Okay. Then you mentioned before around sort of corporate and SMB. Well, we find that a lot of the big opportunities are mostly around as they scale their business, uh, they’re not necessarily looking for things in the traditional sort of infrastructure space, but they’re looking for, you know, full SaaS applications to help scale their business, right? [00:40:58] Dai Vu: So it would be CRM, finance, hr, these types of solutions to become very attractive for some of this, uh, downstream market. And then lastly, as I mentioned before, which is, uh, when we think about this gentrification and owning, um. Uh, driving, uh, this business process and vertical, the ISVs become very important along with the services partners who bring that domain expertise to drive the end to end workflow. [00:41:25] Dai Vu: So I think that’s gonna be increasingly important. So those are three areas I think we need to watch out for. We. Okay. [00:41:30] John Janke: Maybe one thing, like as the cloud commit grows inside of companies, it’s shifted from being an engineering department, IT department budget line item to a corporate finance budget line item. [00:41:40] John Janke: Typically one of the top five to 10 expenses in a company. So that has shifted. Who is thinking about optimizing? The cloud commit with marketplace contracts. And that opens, that’s really opened up the avenue in addition to like these biz apps, vertical apps players. Yeah. Like having success. So I, I do think even inside your own company, evaluating where your cloud commits are, who owns them and are they thinking about the intersection of marketplace? [00:42:06] John Janke: ’cause I, I think it’s smaller companies, they’re still figuring it out. I run into engineering leaders who still own the commits, uh, but in medium to large companies. Very different. [00:42:16] Vince Menzione: Really good point. Because it, you know this, the optics change dramatically, right? This large commitment is now at the board level, [00:42:23] John Janke: right? [00:42:23] John Janke: And then you do have to teach your sellers as a vertical or business application player how to ask that question. ’cause the first resistance everybody says is, oh my, my person, my stakeholder, we. Manufacturing vertical application provider talking at an event last week, and they’re like, the shop floor manufacturing owner doesn’t know anything about the cloud commit. [00:42:43] John Janke: But if they ask the question, be like, Hey, do you guys have a strategic relationship with Google? Would it be easier to buy our product on the bill? Eight out of 10 times they get a yes. So [00:42:52] Vince Menzione: which is why the 5% comes in And that really accelerates the conversation happening. Yeah. We’ve got three more minutes. [00:43:01] Vince Menzione: Um, if we don’t have any other questions, I ha I have one for each of you really about the maturity model and partners are in the room that are not committed yet, right? We’ve talked about some very significant DBTs doing some incredible things, right? So we, there’s maybe a sense that like we, you, you are working with the be the biggest and the best out there, but what about everyone else that’s in the room that maybe isn’t committed yet? [00:43:23] Vince Menzione: And maybe they’re in motion, but they need some help and advice on what to go do next. What? What would you say die first? [00:43:30] Dai Vu: So they’re early stage, [00:43:31] Vince Menzione: early, early stage or not, they’re not on board yet. They’re not, yeah. They’re not with you yet. [00:43:35] Dai Vu: Yeah. So I’ll, I’ll go back to my earlier comment, which is that as you go into the journey, just be very intentional about what you need to do from an operational, investment people, uh, technology perspective. [00:43:47] Dai Vu: Uh, because it could be, it could be a multi-year journey. Um, uh, so I’d say go into it with the right expectations as opposed to thinking it’s going to be some accelerated six month thing that Sean has been driving here. It’s, he’s the outlier. [00:43:59] Shawn Toldo: But, but the reason for the outlier, [00:44:00] Dai Vu: yeah. [00:44:01] Shawn Toldo: And just to add to the intentional point Yeah. [00:44:02] Shawn Toldo: Is, you know, hire the right people. Right. So, somebody told me a long time ago, uh, hire slow, fire fast. That’s a really, really, really good principle that I take. Mm-hmm. I don’t like the fire part, obviously, but just for context, I, I am very lucky to have a great set of leaders that we were able to add people in. [00:44:24] Shawn Toldo: When I walked in the door, we had a person that was leading the Snowflake and AWS partnership. I had nobody on GCPI had nobody on Microsoft. I had nobody on Databricks. And then we made prioritization decisions on where we’re gonna go next. And so we hired people that had the experience and could drive the outcome in the right way. [00:44:43] Shawn Toldo: But we were very thoughtful about when we made those decisions on a quarterly basis, not a daily basis. So who you’re gonna bet on and then who you’re gonna put in the seat to make that bet come to life, I think is a really important thing as well. [00:44:58] John Janke: Yeah. [00:44:58] Vince Menzione: John, you worked with the be biggest and the best out there, so Yeah, sorry. [00:45:01] John Janke: Well, I think there’s the, like there’s the bottoms up and the tops down. Like seven years ago, this was all bottoms up. It was a partner leader who thought launching a marketplace would be good and they would go figure out how to do some deals and then sell their way up. Today there’s a lot more top down where people get it. [00:45:17] John Janke: But you can evaluate top down pretty fast. ’cause if you go talk to your CEO, you talk to your head of product, you talk to your CFO, and they have an allergic reaction to these concepts. You know, you have to go bottoms up. But there also are success story examples in every single ISV category that exists. [00:45:33] John Janke: Like this is not just security and data and DevOp like the, I think the ServiceNow. Salesforce workday. Examples are really great, like the marketing tech examples, more and more business of vertical apps every day. So I do think you can look at those people who’ve been successful. Maybe they’re your competitors, maybe they’re people you aspire to be and reference them as you’re trying to figure out how to do top down. [00:45:55] John Janke: But like you need both. You can’t win long term unless you get top down and bottom up aligned. [00:46:01] Shawn Toldo: And, and when I, when I would go ask for resourcing, I would always get the question, do, could you go faster with more? And I’d say, no. Gimme the one or two humans here, let me go prove it out and I’ll come back. [00:46:13] Shawn Toldo: So there’s a little bit of a strategy in doing that, that you’re gonna get more over time when you’re, you know, very measured in how you go ask for investment and resource. And so I would just add that point also. [00:46:27] Vince Menzione: Was, was hiring a significant component of your executive commitment, Sean? I mean, [00:46:33] Shawn Toldo: yes. So when I walked in the door at DBT, we had eight people in the partner organization. [00:46:38] Shawn Toldo: Today we have 25, and that was 18 months ago. But that did not happen. I didn’t go in and ask for, you know, that 16 people. Right. I asked over time in a very measured way with, you know, the programs and strategy team, like, what can we also support? You don’t want to bring somebody in to go do something and you don’t have the programs and operations side to support it ’cause they’ll fail. [00:47:01] Shawn Toldo: So we’ve been very thoughtful about how we’ve done that as well. [00:47:04] Vince Menzione: Die from you. I know you had something. [00:47:06] Dai Vu: No, no, no. I, I was good. [00:47:08] Vince Menzione: What is the one thing that people in this room need to go better and differently? Is there one, is there one specific thing other than what we’ve already discussed, did we miss anything? [00:47:16] Dai Vu: No, I would just, the whole identification. So obviously, uh, identifying this is not just like slapping a chat bot, but more around thinking all the things we talked about, product commercials, but also go to market where it’s agent first, where you can surface your agent in a workflow like Gemini Enterprise app. [00:47:34] Dai Vu: That’s gonna drive high alignment with how we work and go to market with Google. [00:47:38] Vince Menzione: Awesome. [00:47:38] Dai Vu: Yeah. [00:47:40] Vince Menzione: Wow. Good stuff. Yeah. Very good session. [00:47:44] Dai Vu: Thank [00:47:44] Vince Menzione: you guys. What do you think? Everyone? Thank you very much. [00:47:47] Shawn Toldo: Thanks for listening to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. [00:47:50] Vince Menzione: If today’s conversation resonated, share it with a partner leader in your network. [00:47:55] Vince Menzione: Subscribe where you listen, and head over to the ultimate partner.com. For show notes related content and the resources for this episode. And if you haven’t already, now’s the time to register for the Ultimate Partner Live Event in Reston, Virginia, [00:48:11] John Janke: October 26th through October 28th. [00:48:14] Vince Menzione: Until next time, keep showing up in the rooms that matter because being in the room changes everything [00:48:22] I.

A Special Industry Update, With Jason Diamond and Mindy Diamond Jason and Mindy Diamond revisit how advisor due diligence is evolving—from AI and enterprise value to firm stability, ownership, and optionality—and why those questions matter more than ever. In Summary Due diligence has always been about finding the right fit. But what advisors are evaluating has expanded considerably. In this replay of an Industry Update, Jason Diamond and Mindy Diamond revisit The Advisor Transition Playbook to explore how advisor priorities continue to evolve. Beyond the traditional reasons advisors consider change, they discuss newer factors shaping decisions today—from artificial intelligence and enterprise value to ownership structure, firm stability, and long-term optionality. The conversation reinforces that while every advisor's motivations are personal, the evaluation process has become far more strategic. Today's advisors aren't simply comparing recruiting deals or platforms. They're considering how today's decisions may influence the value, flexibility, and future of the businesses they're building. The Storyline For years, advisor movement was largely driven by familiar themes: bureaucracy, management changes, technology frustrations, and the desire for greater independence. Those factors remain important. But the conversations Diamond Consultants has with advisors today increasingly include questions that rarely surfaced just a few years ago. How should AI factor into firm selection? What is the long-term value of building enterprise value instead of simply maximizing a recruiting package? How important is a firm's ownership structure? And how should advisors think about stability in a marketplace where acquisitions, recapitalizations, and private equity investment have become commonplace? Jason and Mindy revisit the transition framework introduced in Part 1, focusing less on the mechanics of making a move and more on the evolving criteria advisors are using to evaluate their options. The result is a broader discussion about due diligence—not simply as a transition exercise, but as an ongoing strategic process for advisors seeking to build their best business life. Topics Covered Advisor due diligence Traditional vs. emerging drivers of advisor movement Artificial intelligence in wealth management Enterprise value and advisor ownership Recruiting deals versus long-term economics Reverse due diligence Firm ownership and stability Private equity in wealth management Advisor optionality Building a long-term advisory business Blubrry Player > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why are the traditional drivers of advisor movement still relevant? (4:00) Jason and Mindy revisit the longstanding push-and-pull factors that continue to influence advisor decisions, from bureaucracy and management frustrations to the desire for greater ownership and control. How has AI become part of the due diligence process? (13:50) The discussion explores why advisors increasingly expect firms to demonstrate a clear AI strategy—and why investment, integration, and vision may become meaningful competitive advantages. Why should advisors care about enterprise value, even if they don't technically own their business? (24:30) Jason and Mindy explain why more advisors are evaluating decisions through the lens of long-term business value rather than solely short-term economics. What does reverse due diligence really involve? (37:15) The conversation highlights why advisors should evaluate prospective firms with the same rigor firms use when evaluating advisors. How does firm ownership affect advisor optionality? (38:00) Private equity, acquisitions, and changing ownership structures have made it increasingly important to understand what happens if a firm's strategy changes after an advisor joins. Why has due diligence become more strategic than ever? (45:30) The episode concludes with a broader discussion about defining one's “best business life” and making decisions that align with long-term goals rather than reacting to short-term frustrations. Key Takeaways The reasons advisors evaluate change have expanded well beyond traditional frustrations such as bureaucracy and compensation. AI has become an increasingly important component of firm evaluation, not because it replaces advisors, but because it can enhance productivity and client service. Enterprise value is becoming a consideration even for advisors who currently work within employee models. Reverse due diligence is just as important as a firm's evaluation of an advisor, particularly when assessing ownership structure, capitalization, and long-term stability. The most effective transition decisions balance immediate economics with long-term flexibility, ownership, and optionality. Every advisor's definition of success is different, making clarity around personal goals the foundation of any due diligence process. https://youtu.be/WZbUZJZK1yc Quotable Moments “Every advisor deserves to live their best business life.” “Just because you're frustrated doesn't mean you should move. You need something worth moving toward.” “The question isn't simply what you're paid today. It's what you're building over time.” “Knowledge is power. Understanding what your business is worth should be part of every advisor's decision-making process.” FAQs Why are more advisors expanding their due diligence beyond compensation? While transition economics remain important, advisors are increasingly evaluating technology, AI capabilities, enterprise value, ownership opportunities, and long-term flexibility as part of the decision-making process. How should advisors evaluate a firm's AI strategy? Rather than looking for finished products, advisors should assess whether a firm has a clear vision, meaningful investment, and an integrated approach to using AI to improve advisor productivity and client experience. What is reverse due diligence? Reverse due diligence is the process of evaluating a prospective firm as thoroughly as the firm evaluates the advisor. It includes understanding ownership structure, financial stability, culture, technology, leadership, and long-term strategy. Why does enterprise value matter for employee advisors? Even advisors who do not currently own their businesses may benefit from understanding how different business models create opportunities for ownership, long-term value creation, and future monetization. How has private equity changed advisor due diligence? Private equity has introduced new opportunities for growth and capital, but it has also made it more important for advisors to understand ownership structures, investment horizons, and what future transactions could mean for their business. What does Diamond Consultants mean by an advisor's “best business life”? It refers to aligning an advisor's business model, goals, client experience, compensation, flexibility, and long-term vision in a way that best supports both the advisor and the clients they serve. While transition economics remain important, advisors are increasingly evaluating technology, AI capabilities, enterprise value, ownership opportunities, and long-term flexibility as part of the decision-making process. Rather than looking for finished products, advisors should assess whether a firm has a clear vision, meaningful investment, and an integrated approach to using AI to improve advisor productivity and client experience. Reverse due diligence is the process of evaluating a prospective firm as thoroughly as the firm evaluates the advisor. It includes understanding ownership structure, financial stability, culture, technology, leadership, and long-term strategy. Even advisors who do not currently own their businesses may benefit from understanding how different business models create opportunities for ownership, long-term value creation, and future monetization. Private equity has introduced new opportunities for growth and capital, but it has also made it more important for advisors to understand ownership structures, investment horizons, and what future transactions could mean for their business. It refers to aligning an advisor's business model, goals, client experience, compensation, flexibility, and long-term vision in a way that best supports both the advisor and the clients they serve. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. Related Resources The Advisor Transition Playbook: The Latest on Due Diligence, the Move, and Everything In Between – Part 1 Annual Advisor Transition Report Top 10 Tips for a Strategic Due Diligence Process Should I Stay or Should I Go? View the transcript of this episode… The Advisor Transition Playbook: The Latest on Due Diligence, the Move, and Everything In Between – Part 2 A Special Industry Update with Jason Diamond and Mindy Diamond. Jason Diamond: Welcome to a replay of one of the most popular episodes from our podcast series for financial advisors, The Advisor Transition Playbook: The Latest on Due Diligence, the Move, and Everything In Between. It's Part 2 of a 2-Part Industry Update with Mindy Diamond. I’m Jason Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner, well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our Annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: There’s been a noticeable shift in how advisors are approaching decisions about their business, not necessarily in whether they’re exploring change, but in what they’re focused on when they do. Mindy is back with me for a continuation of our earlier conversation on the Advisor Transition Playbook. Last time, we spent time on the mechanics, how due diligence works, what a move actually entails, and how to think through the process. What’s become more apparent since then is that the inputs into that process are evolving. The traditional drivers are still there, but layered on top are a set of considerations that didn’t carry the same weight before. AI is one of them, and not just as a tool, but as a differentiator that advisors are starting to diligence more seriously. Enterprise value is another. Showing up in conversations, even for advisors who don’t technically own their business, but are thinking more critically about what they’re building over time. And then there are questions around stability, ownership, and flexibility. What happens to the firm itself and whether advisors retain the ability to adapt again if circumstances change. None of this is theoretical. It’s showing up in real time conversations. What we want to do here is unpack those new triggers of advisor movement and what they suggest about how decisions are being made today. So let’s get to it. Mindy, the legend, thank you for joining me. So glad to have you on. Mindy Diamond: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here. Jason Diamond: Great. Let’s dive right in. I’ll set the stage really quickly one more time. When we spoke about this topic last, we talked about the drivers of movement, what we’ll call in this conversation as the old or the legacy drivers of movement, and we spoke about the mechanics of the move. Before we get into the new drivers of movement, which I want to be the meat of the conversation, remind us, when we talk about the legacy drivers of movement …. And by the way, by saying legacy, I by no means want to suggest that they’re not valid today, because they’re equally valid, if not more so today than they were then. But when you think of the classic drivers of movement in our industry, what are they? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So I would say, first of all, let’s start by saying that for every advisor, they’ve got a unique set of needs. So the first thing to say is that while you and I can talk about the categories of frustrations or things that might bother an advisor, they show up differently in each advisor’s life. So it’s important to note that everyone is unique. But generally speaking, if I had to package them, I’d say it’s number one that shows up most of the time is too much bureaucracy. A feeling that a firm or a model is just too hypervigilant in terms of compliance and it’s too bureaucratic and too hard to get things done. Number two would be some sort of change in or frustration with management. Something is going on that the person or persons that are responsible for managing the business are just not … They’re not the wind at their back. They’re obstreperous. They’re causing difficulty and frustration. And probably the third one would be less about a pain point and more about the desire to be something that they couldn’t where they were. The notion that they want to be more independent, they want to be a business owner and they just can’t do that. That doesn’t exist within the model where they work. Those probably have been the three ones top of mind, but I bet you’ll have some … You’ll add to that. Jason Diamond: I’ll add a couple. But before I do, I’ve heard you talk about this topic, maybe said another way as pushes and pulls. Can you explain what you mean by that? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So I think that we think about the pushes, the frustrations, the things pushing somebody out the door, the factors that make it less easy or less fluid to do business. And there’s almost always pushes that exist when somebody comes to us, where they’re frustrated to some degree or another about certain things. But we tell people all the time that just to be frustrated should never be enough, because if all you’re doing is running from one set of problems, you’re very likely to run into maybe a different set, but still problems elsewhere. So a move needs to be driven in equal part, if not more, by pulls. Being pulled toward an opportunity that can be needle moving enough or better enough than where you are now. Pushes and pull. Jason Diamond: I love it. So let me ask you a little bit of a pointed question. Is a recruiting deal a valid pull factor? Mindy Diamond: So look, it’s different for every person. We’ve had advisors come and say, “I just went through a divorce and the most important thing to me is to recapitalize. And so a recruiting deal is really important.” And while I would never be one to say that’s not valid, it can be … And by the way, any advisor should want to and expect to better their financial situation. There should be economic gain. But it shouldn’t be the only or the primary reason for the move. So you want to monetize. The notion of wanting to monetize in the short term should be a factor in what model you pick, but it shouldn’t be the primary driver for a move. Jason Diamond: I agree with that wholeheartedly. I was going to say something I think maybe would’ve surprised you a little, which is like, yeah, I think recruiting deal is a very valid pull factor because what we’re saying is, it shouldn’t be the only pull factor. And sometimes it is and it makes us a little bit sad, I think, when that’s the case. But all of these factors you mentioned, and the ones I would add, I think that maybe technology would be another kind of factor that drives movement, all of these factors are not one specific reason. If you did the exit interview, either actually conducted the exit interview with advisors or thought exercise exit interview, I think they would point to a confluence of all of these factors. Compliance was a headache. I wanted to launch a podcast. I wanted to be able to send a timely communication to my clients. We used to hear that one during COVID a lot, right? By the time compliance approved something to send to clients, it was already stale. So do you agree with that, that it’s generally a confluence or a combination of these? Or in your experience, is it advisors are like, “No, compliance or the tech is so bad, I’m out”? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So most often there’s a straw that breaks the camel’s back incident or thing where they’re willing to put up with a series of minor paper cuts, if you will. And then almost always there’s something that happens. You and I got a call the other day from a team that said that they had split from their partner and the management of the firm was favoring the ex-partner, making it harder for them to stay or making it less fun or feel good for them to stay. So while they gave me a laundry list of things that were imperfect, I don’t know that any one of the things that were imperfect up until then would’ve been enough to drive them out. But when that one thing, that feeling that they were a second class citizen came up, that was the straw that breaks the camel’s back and went from a minorly frustrated to, “I’m out of here.” Jason Diamond: Yeah. And there’s probably a hundred examples you could walk us through. And I wanted to just highlight too, this concept is not limited to the wirehouse or employee or captive firm world, this is equally relevant for independent advisors. Granted, some of the pushes and pull factors, some of the triggers are not necessarily the same, but the idea that advisors outgrow a broker dealer or an RIA or either need or want or desire in some way, shape or form, greater autonomy, flexibility, freedom, control is certainly not limited to the employee space. I just wanted to make that point. Mindy Diamond: And I think that’s absolutely right. I think the notion of that frustrations or limitations or bureaucracy only existed if you were a W2 employee at a bulge bracket firm. That went out the window. As the industry landscape has expanded and there’s more and more valid ways to be a financial advisor, there’s more and more ways for a firm or a model or an infrastructure to frustrate an advisor. And that’s not being overly negative. It’s just to say there is no perfection anywhere. Jason Diamond: Yeah, 100%. And by the way, to play a little bit of devil’s advocate on that, and then we’ll move on, I would just say there are pain points that might come from a firm being small and subscale as well. My firm doesn’t have efficient technology. They don’t invest enough in the business. They don’t provide a lead mechanism. They don’t have a robust banking and lending or investment solutions platform. So this stuff cuts both ways. An advisor can be frustrated or limited and an advisor can be excited. Pushes and pulls I think touch on, we’ve heard from advisors in every single pocket of the market, this is a relevant concept. Mindy Diamond: The theme of this is that every advisor deserves to live their best business life. That’s what people are in search of when they reach out to us or when they engage with us. What they’re looking for more than anything, and this is irrespective of where they work or how long they’ve worked or how much they manage, every advisor is in search of their best business life. And what defines their best business life is having the best quality of work life, but also the best ability to do what they want to do with their business, to serve their clients without limitations, to grow the way they want, to be paid a fair wage, and ultimately set up to maximize the value of the business they’ve built. Those are the definitions of one’s best business life. Jason Diamond: I used an even simpler definition of best business life and I stole it from you, which is the true north concept, which is if your true north is maximizing enterprise value and chasing the dollar and trying to build something that’s scalable and saleable, then great. If your true north is to build a lifestyle practice, there’s plenty of advisors who are successful and happy and content in that regard as well. And I think that’s what we’re talking about, is finding your true north and then it’s possible. I mean, that’s the beauty of the landscape. We’re talking about this, a lot of this is pain points or things that advisors experience. The exciting part of this is there’s never been a better time to be an advisor because of the breadth of choice they have and the ecosystem that’s been born to support advisors, to your point, across the spectrum. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. And it’s also, I think, worth saying that it starts with really good crystal clear clarity around not only what’s frustrating you, but what you want ideal to look like. Because I can’t tell you, or I can tell you because … I can’t tell our listeners, I can’t stress enough how often we get calls from advisors that tell us where they think they want to be or tell us they want to move. They have clarity about what’s frustrating them or what they want to change, but they don’t really have clarity about what they want it to look like. And the less clarity you have, the less likely you are to be successful in finding the exact right solution. So our work, the thing we probably do best is really work with advisors to help them. It doesn’t take long. In an hour conversation, we can help them to really get crystal clear on what they’re looking to solve for. Jason Diamond: Absolutely. All right. Great appetizer. We set the table. Let’s dive into the main course now. I want to talk now about what I’m calling the 2.0 triggers or the new triggers of movement. And to be clear, it’s not that these are more important or better or more significant drivers of movement. In fact, you could argue they’re probably at present less significant than the ones we just listed. But I think what we’re saying is these are triggers that are starting to come up more and more in conversations and we expect them to only proliferate further. And in that regard, they’re noteworthy and important for advisors because advisors should be reconciling not just what are the things I need to be worrying about today, but also what are the things I need to be potentially worrying about five years from now. So with that in mind, let’s dive in. I think the first one we have to start with is AI. And I always chuckle a tiny bit when we mention AI, we used to have to specify what are we talking about. Are we talking about artificial intelligence or alternative investments? And now it’s very clear. Everybody knows we’re talking about artificial intelligence. So the direction of the industry, no over-dramatization to say is at stake here. It’s that important of a topic. Let me ask you just very simply first, is this coming up in conversations with advisors? Mindy Diamond: Oh, all the time, but it’s almost table stakes. So I think the way it comes up is that people assume, advisors assume, and by the way, have the right to assume that AI is part of the tech stack. The notion that if I’m evaluating a firm and part of what frustrates me or part of what’s really important to me is cutting edge, really robust technology, part of what I am expecting is that a new firm is going to have really robust technology. And part of that is really robust access to AI. And has honed the AI in a way that’s user-friendly, that really answers or delivers on making me a better … Not replacing me as an advisor, but making me a better, more efficient advisor. Jason Diamond: 100%. And I would also add, so as I think about this AI topic, I don’t want this to become a conversation around, is AI going to replace advisors, because I think we both agree that’s not going to be the case. Especially at the top end of the market for quality advisors, I think they’re not going anywhere. But in my view, when we think about the trigger of movement, AI has the potential to be transformative because a couple kind of use cases or trigger cases come to mind, and I’d love to hear your thoughts. One is, do you think advisors will potentially consider a move because they’re worried about this? So in other words, play this logic out with me. I’m 55 years old and I’m like, “Oh man, AI might be coming from my job.” And there’s firms offering 400% of revenue to move my book. Maybe I should take that check and kind of de-risk and monetize while I can. What are your thoughts on that? Mindy Diamond: I absolutely think we’re already working with that fall into that category, but to say that is the only reason for the move would be wrong. I’m grateful that people trust us enough to be transparent with us. So they let us know that underneath the notion that they want to better serve clients, they ultimately want better access to A, B, and C, they want to be able to do D, E and F with less restriction, is really the main reason for the move. But underneath it, the notion that my book, I want to protect myself. My book may well be the biggest it’s ever going to be. It is going to be worth more today than it could be in the future if things don’t go my way. And if I know I’m going to move and one of my goals is to monetize, I might want to do that now. Jason Diamond: I agree. And that’s where the top deal story comes in also. Firms paying a top deal is a part of that story. It’s what you just said, plus advisors know firms are willing to pay incredible multiples. I mean, as we speak, UBS is in market with one of the largest deals in history. So those two narratives side by side, I agree. I think this becomes more of a kind of catalyst or driver movement. It’s come up in my conversations on both sides of the spectrum. It’s the tech savvy, AI savvy advisors who are excited about this, who are like, “I want to be the most AI enabled version of myself I can be. It’s going to make me a rockstar and it’s going to widen the gap with my peers,” but it’s also come up with the people who are, I think, rightly scared and fearful about what this might mean for their job. Mindy Diamond: Let me ask you, what are examples of the way you’ve seen some of the best firms who have embraced AI? What is their narrative? What is it that they’re saying to advisors that if you come here from a tech or AI perspective, you’ll be better because we’re able to do … Fill in the blank. Jason Diamond: Yeah. So a couple that come up. First of all, I want to make the important point. Advisors do not expect that firms, either their current firm or firms that they are diligencing prospectively, have this figured out or solved. Everybody understands this is a fairly new area that firms are still very much kind of developing their strategies in. What advisors want to see is a few things. They want to see though leadership, they want to see investment, and they want to see a strategy, right? Effectively, they want to see a step in the right direction, really. So I’ll give you a couple examples. There are a number of tech savvy RIAs, very tech-enabled, AI-focused RIAs, because I think this is easier to be nimble. I think where you’ll see this quicker probably is in the independent space. That what they’re doing is things like this. An advisor logs on to their workstation in the morning and their system queues them proactively, Mr. and Mrs. Smith may be good candidates for a Roth IRA conversion. And then if the advisor decides to contact the client in some way about it, the system will of course help them draft the communication, but then it’ll take it a step further and actually help them to process and transact that conversion. So soup to nuts, ultimately driving efficiency. That’s the name of the game. That’s why firms, I think, are excited about AI, at least the good firms. Because what I think they realize it will do is, the stuff that’s a waste of time that could be automated that advisors, and probably even more so their associates, client associates are spending time on, that should be a massive time saver for advisors. And I think if you play that story out, what does that mean? It should mean bigger books of business and therefore more productive advisors because they have more time to prospect and focus on their clients. Thoughts? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So I think you said it perfectly, but it raises the question then. You say that the RIAs can be more nimble. You’re right. I mean, the big story around the biggest firms was like moving a battleship, it takes a long time to turn it. It’s not as nimble. So what and how are the bigger firms competing against the RIAs with respect to AI? And second question, we still always get questions, and rightly so, about Morgan Stanley has more money to invest… Jason Diamond: That was going to be part of my answer. Mindy Diamond: … than fill in the blank RIA. So how does that all work? Jason Diamond: That is absolutely going to be part of my answer, is that I have heard this question posed almost presumptively both ways. “Oh, it’s got to be that the RIAs are going to be the clear winners in this.” And I’ve also heard, “Oh, it’s got to be that the wirehouses are going to be the clear winners in this.” I don’t think it’s going to be channel specific like that. I think it is going to be firm specific. I think there’s going to be firms that are going to do this well and firms that are going to not do this well. But there’s going to be winners in the wirehouse space. There’s going to be winners in the regional firm space, with firms like Raymond James who are clearly trying to be on the cutting edge of this. There’s certainly going to be winners in the broker-dealer space. LPL is investing heavily in this, as are many of their broker-dealer competitors. And then of course the RIA space, where sometimes they may not have the budgets, but they have a couple things. They have private equity backing, sometimes. They have the custodians that they’re built on, right, or the tech vendors that they’re built on. So Schwab and Fidelity or Orion and Addepar. They have other ways to access these innovations. One of the things that comes up with this that your question I think gets at is, a similar question that was raised around technology stacks, which is strength of offering versus integration. And that’s where I think a firm like Morgan Stanley really will shine, is they should … Because they don’t put anything out that’s not well integrated. The big firms have generally done a pretty good job of that. Versus the RIAs. Sometimes we’ve heard feedback where, yes, you have access to you name it, right? You dream it up, you can go and buy it. But the left hand may not speak to the right hand quite as well. Mindy Diamond: Yeah, that’s actually a really good point. And integration is probably one of the biggest … If you ask an advisor when they talk about technology as either being one of their pushes or pulls, probably what they’re referring to more than anything is not only having the capability, but having the integrated capability. So that’s a great point. And I think your point is right, that the final chapter on this has not been written. Nobody thinks that it has. And so whatever answers you and I can talk about today about who’s winning this race, or this tech race or this AI race, will be totally different tomorrow. We all know that. But I think for purposes of this conversation, to say that an advisor having an expectation that their technology be outstanding and that AI be on the table, that a firm is embracing it and heading in the right direction, if you will, has the right thought leadership and the right willingness to invest in it is what advisors are really looking for right now. Jason Diamond: Absolutely. And this is a question too from the firm’s perspective, if you are a firm of any size, you must be able to answer that. This has become question 1A. And again, I don’t mean to suggest that I think AI is the number one most important factor driving advisor movement today. It very well might be at some point down the road. I don’t think we’re there yet. But I do think it’s the topic du jour or the hot topic, where every advisor is asking about this. So that means if you’re a firm, you need to be prepared to tell the story or at least have the vision. And I think what we’re hearing from both advisors and from firms is this, AI is going to … What is right now a gap between the good and the bad, the quality and the non, is going to become an absolute chasm, right? An absolutely mountainous gap between the best firms and the firms who are able to adapt this technology or this AI. And the same thing at the advisor level, between the AI-enabled superpowered advisor versus those who are in the dinosaur ages, for lack of a better term. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. And we’ll move on, but it is worth saying that the day of the standalone independent, the one man or one woman band who hangs out a shingle, and to use your term, running a lifestyle practice, nothing wrong with that, but it would be near impossible to imagine a world where a standalone independent can compete with a private-equity-backed RIA or an RIA that has a big pool of capital behind them or to compete with the major firms. And our point is the ability to compete is probably more important with respect to this topic than just about any other. Jason Diamond: Totally agree. Thank you for tying a bow on that because I think that’s a good place to leave the AI topic, at least for now. I’m certain we’ll have more to say on this one. By the time we release this episode, we’ll probably have more to say on it. So we’ll have to do a follow-up again. But I want to talk now about enterprise value. And this is one where if you’re an RIA or if you’re an advisor at an independent firm, this might sound like a duh, but hear me out on this one. The idea is as follows, if I’m a wirehouse advisor or any sort of captive advisor, I don’t technically own anything. Agree? Mindy Diamond: Agreed. Jason Diamond: Okay. So if that’s true, that I don’t technically own anything, I technically don’t have any sort of enterprise value or ability to monetize. But my premise here and why I would argue that enterprise value has become a driver of movement is even wirehouse advisors know … They see teams like OpenArc, a massive RIA that launched last year. They see their corner office peers breaking away, starting independent firms. They see them selling to asset managers, private-equity-backed RIAs, private equity firms in their own right for these massive multiples. And what I guess I’m getting at, and I’m curious if you agree is, if a wirehouse advisor, let’s say, sees their colleagues sell to a private equity firm for 20X, doesn’t that have to become a little bit of a catalyst for movement in its own right? Mindy Diamond: Without a doubt. Historically … Actually, let me date myself. When I started this business now 32 years ago, there was zero way for an advisor who was a captive employee of a firm, of any firm, to monetize their business. It’s why there was so much movement, because the only way they could monetize was to get paid a big fat transition deal to move from one firm to the other. Jason Diamond: Yep. Mindy Diamond: Obviously, we all know that first it started with the big firms, and then just about every brokerage firm on the street began to offer a retire-in-place program. And that is the big firms or a traditional brokerage firm’s way of allowing advisor to monetize in place from their perspective to stave off attrition. And for an advisor that believes that the status quo serves them well, that finishing their career, that leaving their legacy, that leaving their team at their firm is the best thing to do, then those retire-in-place programs, like Merrill’s CTP or Morgan’s FAP or UBS’s Alpha or a name at every firm has them, is the best gift to advisors there is. But the problem is that the next generation at those firms are buying an asset they don’t own. And so when we talk about enterprise value or the desire to build enterprise value as a real driver of movement, what we’re talking about is not only that advisors want ownership of an asset, because ownership translates into more control and autonomy and agency over building it the way you want to, but it also translates into maximizing the value of the business that you’ve built. So that’s a long-winded way of saying that the OpenArc deal you are referencing, for anybody not familiar, is a Merrill Lynch team, a legacy Merrill Lynch team in Atlanta that was managing more than 120 billion in assets, part retail, ultra high net worth client assets, and part institutional consulting assets. And believe me, I don’t want to make it sound like it was a snap that one day they’re happy and the next day they’re going independent. Over a 10-year period became more and more aware, driven by the pushes and more aware of the pulse. But ultimately, while there was a long list of things they wanted to be able to do that they couldn’t to best serve clients and grow the business, the real driver at the end of the day, or I shouldn’t say the real driver, but a major driver was the notion of building and owning enterprise value. Yes, they could have all gotten very attractive deals and retired with your Merrill CTP, but they wanted to own the business, they wanted cap gains treatment. And so they went through the sweat equity big time of building what they’re calling OpenArc for the ability for probably five, 10, 20 years, because there’s partners with all different ages, so at all different times, to be able to really maximize the value of the business they’ve built. Jason Diamond: Can I push back on that for … It’s a super helpful example, but my one thought is, okay, yeah, of course, 130 billion in assets, they should be concerned with enterprise value at that size. And the delta between caring about enterprise value and not is too great because those guys have, by all accounts, a phenomenal business that is rivaled by very few in the industry. Most of our audience does not fit into that stratosphere. So what about advisors in, let’s call it the million to $10 million space? Should they still care about this concept? Mindy Diamond: Again, it’s an inside job. It’s a personal thing. Some don’t. But the answer is yes. And if I were them, I would. Why? Because whether I am generating a million a year in revenue or $10 million a year in revenue, at the end of the day, I’ve got an asset. I’ve built a valuable asset. And I have the choice at the end of the day or the middle of the day to decide a million things about that asset. How do I want to live my business life? How do I want to serve my clients? Where do I want to work? But one of the biggest factors to determining where and how they want to work is, ultimately, do I want to be able to maximize the value of the business that I’ve built? And while there are few things that are really definitive in this industry, the one thing that is absolutely indisputably definitive is that if you build an independent practice like the ex-Merrill Lynch churned RIA OpenArc team did, you will ultimately build enterprise value exponential multiples greater than any way you could monetize the business as a traditional employee. Jason Diamond: And that math absolutely still holds up even at numbers smaller than we’ve mentioned. I totally agree with that. I’ll give you one other reason why I think you should care. And I’d love your thoughts on this one. I’ll ask it two ways maybe. I’ll tell you my take and then I’ll ask you yours. Morgan Stanley, let’s use as an example. Who are Morgan Stanley’s competitors? In my opinion, the legacy answer to that is, well, of course the wirehouses are Morgan Stanley’s competitors. Merrill, UBS, Wells Fargo, what maybe used to be a longer list, but today those four. I don’t think that’s the answer anymore. I think those are the direct competitors. But because of this enterprise value conversation, I think Morgan Stanley’s competitors are anyone and everyone who recruits financial advisors with books of business. Because if you think about it, an advisor who has a $3 million business at a wirehouse, even if they’re not actually going to do this, they don’t have any entrepreneurial spirit, no desire to go independent, they still know that they could. This is an option and a viable option. And firms are even figuring out ways to cut out the middle step, right? Because this was historically a two-step process. You’re a wirehouse advisor or a W2 advisor. You break away, launch an independent business to establish your enterprise value, begin building it, and then you monetize it. If you could cut out the middle step, or even if you couldn’t, I still think it’s pretty clear that if you’re an advisor, this is important because the firms know … Like when Morgan Stanley’s writing a recruiting deal, they’re kept honest by RIAs and acquirers just the same as their direct peer set. Do you agree with that or do you think I’m reading too far into this? Mindy Diamond: Oh no, I agree a thousand percent. I think that it is naive for anyone recruiting for or on behalf of a traditional firm to think that the only competition is another traditional firm. The days of pomposity for a senior leader at a traditional firm to say, “We’ve got the best technology, the best everything fill in the blank. We have no competitors.” That’s just naive. Because even if it’s true, you’ve got the best platform infrastructure fill in the blank, there is a multitude of advisors that value things different than what you can provide. Beauty is in the eye of beholder is probably a good way to say that. But at the end of the day, what we’re really talking about is when I started the business, because there was no way, no really good way for an advisor to really monetize their life’s work, the only thing they could or were focused on from a personal financial gain perspective was the short-term deal. What are they paying? What’s the transition deal? Now, of course they’re concerned about that. But almost to a person, they’re equally concerned about what I can build and what will this allow me to build in terms of the value of the business I’m building in the long term. So let me ask you, if we’re talking about an advisor that has the ability to monetize in the short term for what could be 4X and in some cases more than that these days, and we’re talking about the ability to maximize enterprise value, and we talk about the concept of moving once and monetizing twice, what kind of numbers are we talking about? Fill in the blanks there. Jason Diamond: It’s such a hard question to answer because I do genuinely believe recruiting deals, when you talk about 300 to 400% revenue deals in the recruiting space, they vary a little bit, but I feel pretty comfortable quoting those types of numbers that most firms are somewhere in the 300 to 400% of T12 realm. There are some outliers, we mentioned UBS. But the multiple or EBITDA based or enterprise value M&A market where we’re doing these legitimate buyout transactions, the valuations do vary quite a bit. But here’s how I think about it. First of all, most firms are not purchased or sold at top line revenue. Most are sold at some sort of adjusted EBITDA number, which factors in local expenses, platform expenses, but also advisor compensation. And then that adjusted number is typically multipled. The multiples are anywhere from 8X for small kind of, let’s say, million dollar revenue businesses up to, we’ve seen deals struck at north of 20X for some of these mega cap RIAs. Typically, just back of the envelope, if I had to quote, I typically estimate around 5X top line at capital gains is a good kind of ballpark valuation. But there is quite a bit of nuance to it, more so than the traditional recruiting space. And I do think, shameless plug, part of the value in working with somebody who’s an expert on the entirety of the industry landscape is just that. It’s the idea that you need to run the horse race across multiple verticals. The good advisors who work with us typically are looking at a wire like a Morgan Stanley or a Merrill. They’re looking at a boutique firm like a Rockefeller, or they’re looking at a regional like an RBC or a Ray J. They’re looking at an independent firm like an LPL or a Sanctuary. They’re looking all across the spectrum. Mindy Diamond: I think that’s exactly right. But the topic of enterprise value, you can see how powerful it is and how wise it is. For an advisor today, when considering their personal economics to consider not just the short term, but to weigh in or add in or factor in, what could I be building and what ultimately will that business be worth at the end of the day? Jason Diamond: Yeah, 100%. Short of going out and selling your business, what can advisors do then? So I’m an advisor, okay, I’m curious about this. Or is it just as simple as, “Yeah, you should know what your business is worth if you’re an advisor”? Mindy Diamond: Definitively yes, because I mean, we always believe that knowledge is power. And just like it’s important for you to understand what your options are within your own firm, how can I ultimately retire out and monetize my business where I am, I think it’s really hard to make a decision in a vacuum without having other perspective. And getting other perspective doesn’t have to be that you have to go out and take 20 meetings. It’s not that hard for you to figure out what your business is worth to make it a data point for whether or not you’re ultimately best to retire in place or go elsewhere. Jason Diamond: Yeah, that I think is the main takeaway. And the education point is so important. I think because these are relatively new concepts for a lot of advisors that haven’t formally shopped a business before, there’s a lot of resources available. And we’ll certainly link some as well on the page for the episode. Let’s shift gears now, our kind of final trigger 2.0, which is stability and ownership structure of the firm. And this has been a little bit of a hot topic. It’s honestly been a hot topic every year because it seems like things pop up every year. And a lot of times advisors don’t reconcile the question of who owns the firm or how stable is the firm until something happens. The firm gets bought, the firm goes bankrupt, like the First Republic scenario. What should a good advisor do proactively about the idea that if you’re a W2 employee or even an employee who’s affiliated with a broker dealer, you saw this with Commonwealth, you just don’t really have control over what the firm decides to do. Give me your thoughts on this. I know it’s a big topic. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. First of all, using Commonwealth an example, it’s a good one. Because for those unfamiliar, Commonwealth is a boutique broker dealer that was privately owned and whose tagline was, “We love our privately owned status and we are never going to sell,” until one day they did. And not only did they sell, but they sold to the biggest independent broker dealer in the country, ala LPL. That’s not good nor bad, it’s just a fact. So if Commonwealth, who had definitively said we’re never up for sale, suddenly sells, any time you’re an employee of a firm, you never know what tomorrow brings in. You’re not in control over whether it’s sold. So that’s one example. But as you’re talking about this, I’m thinking about, I’m probably going back 20 years, so I’m 10 years into my career and I talked to someone who had been a very successful Merrill advisor. So I’m going to say he was probably generating around $5 million in revenue at the time. Going back 20 years, that’s a pretty significant book of business. He was courted for years by what he thought was a top RIA. And in those days, remember 20 years ago, the RIA space wasn’t nearly as mainstream as it is now. But the story the RIA told him was that ultimately, one, he was going to be a partner in the firm, that was very appealing to him. So he was going to have equity in the firm and much more freedom and control. And locally, by the way, the RIA was a really high quality brand. He worked on a lot of the economics, the short term and the long term with them. They did a ton of due diligence on his book of business. But he failed to ask … And I didn’t represent him. I just know this story. He failed to ask or do enough due diligence about the stability of the firm. What we think is really important, we talk about this expanded landscape. If you’re looking at Morgan Stanley, I don’t think you necessarily need to see Morgan Stanley’s balance sheet. If you are talking to a firm that is anything but a bulge bracket or anything but a large firm, it’s really important to do what we call reverse due diligence and to really understand if a firm expects you to open your kimono and show everything about your business to prove your worth, it is equally important that you do the same for them. In this new world order where private equity has come in and there are so many different ways for a firm to be owned and to be capitalized, it’s very important that an advisor understand what’s going on behind the scenes. And one of the questions around stability, if a firm is private equity backed, is it permanent capital? Is it patient capital? Is the private equity firm going to look to sell and monetize in five years? And then who would the likely buyer be and what does that mean for you? So the question is a big question and it’s really important. Jason Diamond: I love everything you just said, except I do think even the wirehouses, wirehouse advisors, honestly, as much as anybody should be asking these questions. And I’ll give you an example right now, UBS. And UBS, it’s not a story of balance sheet stability. I don’t think anybody has concerns that UBS is going to fail. But UBS management has been very publicly, “Oh, we’re cutting costs.” There’s been some rumors, I think for years, probably dating back 30 years to when you started the business about UBS’s commitment to the US wealth management business. I think those questions about stability and ownership structure are still valid. And to me, the implication of it is twofold. One, what you said, reverse due diligence, ask the questions, plan B. But also the concept of the exits or the off-ramps or how many bites of the apple do you get. So if you’re an advisor and you sell your business to somebody and you sign garden leave and non-competes and non-solicits, the question of ownership structure of that firm becomes less relevant because you have no off-ramps and no ability to exit that business anyway. A lot of times that’s how advisors get comfortable with this concept. And that’s what firms will tell them too, frankly, and we’re living through the middle of this, by the way, with Commonwealth and LPL, is vote with your feet, right? To the extent advisors can, the offer … And this is like, you used the example of private-equity-backed firms. This is how Rockefeller addresses the question of their private equity ownership. If we sell to UBS, all of our advisors will leave. They have that built-in put option. So knowing where the off-ramps are or how many bites of the apple an advisor gets, I think is a big concept that ties into that. But we’re absolutely seeing this pop up, probably largely because of those two examples, Commonwealth and UBS this year, more so Commonwealth, to your point. Janney’s another example last year or two years ago now where KKR comes in and buys Janney. So when these examples happen, it seems like it triggers advisors to say, “Is this something that could happen to me and should I be thinking about this?” Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So let me ask you a question. You’re talking, you’ve mentioned UBS offering this outsized deal. So how does the notion of stability and ownership factor in? If an advisor is considering an unprecedented deal from UBS, what are the caveats or concerns with respect to stability and ownership? Jason Diamond: It’s the same list of considerations you should and would ask of any other firm you’re diligencing, except I think amplified even more in the case … If I was counseling an advisor who was looking at UBS, that would be what I would say, is exactly that. You’re seeing all of these departures and defections, and I would want to have conversations with those advisors and understand exactly why and have guarantees or assurances that I’m not going to suffer from those same pain points that force them to leave. Or, and I say this a little bit flippantly, but it’s a little bit true, I understand the devil that I’m getting into bed with, but for 550%, or whatever the deal might be, I can suck it up. And that’s something that some advisors might well say as well. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. Jason Diamond: I don’t want to end on the negative note of overly large transition, not there’s anything wrong with large transition deals, but as you look out, is there anything that’s coming up in your conversation with advisors that you view as the next wave of this? I’ll give you one that maybe you could touch on, and if you have another one, feel free to offer it in conclusion, but do you think age or advisors starting to succeed out of the business will become more of a driver of movement, even though to your point, advisors can access sunset deals? Mindy Diamond: I do actually, because I think the more the average advisor age increases, the more likely that those advisors are going to want to move on to do something else to monetize the business. And so much of the wave of movement we see is driven not so much by the senior advisor, because many seed advisors are happy enough with the ability to monetize their business in place. Even though it may not maximize the value of the business, it’s a close enough approximation and it means I don’t have to disrupt the apple cart. So we support that 100%. But where we get the calls is from the next generation that says, “Yeah, but hold on a minute. It’s a good way for me to take on a book of assets that I not otherwise have access to. And it’s great for my senior partner, my father, my mother, my whatever to monetize the business. But I’m buying an asset again that I don’t own and I ultimately don’t have control over all these things we’re talking about, the AI investment, the ability to create enterprise value, the stability, the cost cutting, all of it.” So I think it’s all of the above. You say, “What else is there?” I think that’s it. It’s all of the above. It’s anything and everything that drives movement. One, it’s personal, it’s highly unique, it’s different for every advisor. There are certainly themes, and we’re talking about them, but there’s a million different things. It’s personal. And while there are an awful lot of pushes, things that can frustrate an advisor, it is the most exciting time in our view to be an advisor, particularly a high quality one, because the options abound, the ecosystem is big, because the ability to monetize both in the short term and the long term is big, mammoth, exponentially bigger than it ever was before. And the true ability to really build an enterprise has never been greater. And I think all of those things, the desire for an advisor to be the best that they can be and live their best business life is probably the biggest driver of all. Jason Diamond: It’s really true these days, if you can dream it, you can probably build it. And we’ve said in the past, if you build it, they will buy it. It’s a great place to end. This was a really fun topic. I think that’s a spot on kind of fourth trigger, by the way, too. This sort of next gen is almost like the force multiplier or the amplifier of like they see all this other stuff and they’re asking these questions even more so. Because if I’m 60 years old, none of this matters all that much. It matters, but I’m out of the business in five to 10 years. Versus the next gen advisors are the ones who often bear the brunt of this. So I think a lot of really smart stuff. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and expertise. In the episode page, we’ll be sure we have our Industry Transition Report. And we’ve also created a tool, the top 10 tips for a strategic due diligence process, which is a great kind of practical hand-in-hand companion for this topic for advisors looking for more pointed tips on the due diligence process. So Mindy, thank you again. This has been a blast. Mindy Diamond: My pleasure. Thank you. Jason Diamond: Thank you for joining us. We'll be back with a new episode next week, so be sure to listen in. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. The Advisor Transition Playbook: The Latest on Due Diligence, the Move, and Everything In Between – Part 2 A Special Industry Update with Jason Diamond and Mindy Diamond. Jason Diamond: Welcome to a replay of one of the most popular episodes from our podcast series for financial advisors, The Advisor Transition Playbook: The Latest on Due Diligence, the Move, and Everything In Between. It's Part 2 of a 2-Part Industry Update with Mindy Diamond. I’m Jason Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner, well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our Annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: There’s been a noticeable shift in how advisors are approaching decisions about their business, not necessarily in whether they’re exploring change, but in what they’re focused on when they do. Mindy is back with me for a continuation of our earlier conversation on the Advisor Transition Playbook. Last time, we spent time on the mechanics, how due diligence works, what a move actually entails, and how to think through the process. What’s become more apparent since then is that the inputs into that process are evolving. The traditional drivers are still there, but layered on top are a set of considerations that didn’t carry the same weight before. AI is one of them, and not just as a tool, but as a differentiator that advisors are starting to diligence more seriously. Enterprise value is another. Showing up in conversations, even for advisors who don’t technically own their business, but are thinking more critically about what they’re building over time. And then there are questions around stability, ownership, and flexibility. What happens to the firm itself and whether advisors retain the ability to adapt again if circumstances change. None of this is theoretical. It’s showing up in real time conversations. What we want to do here is unpack those new triggers of advisor movement and what they suggest about how decisions are being made today. So let’s get to it. Mindy, the legend, thank you for joining me. So glad to have you on. Mindy Diamond: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here. Jason Diamond: Great. Let’s dive right in. I’ll set the stage really quickly one more time. When we spoke about this topic last, we talked about the drivers of movement, what we’ll call in this conversation as the old or the legacy drivers of movement, and we spoke about the mechanics of the move. Before we get into the new drivers of movement, which I want to be the meat of the conversation, remind us, when we talk about the legacy drivers of movement …. And by the way, by saying legacy, I by no means want to suggest that they’re not valid today, because they’re equally valid, if not more so today than they were then. But when you think of the classic drivers of movement in our industry, what are they? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So I would say, first of all, let’s start by saying that for every advisor, they’ve got a unique set of needs. So the first thing to say is that while you and I can talk about the categories of frustrations or things that might bother an advisor, they show up differently in each advisor’s life. So it’s important to note that everyone is unique. But generally speaking, if I had to package them, I’d say it’s number one that shows up most of the time is too much bureaucracy. A feeling that a firm or a model is just too hypervigilant in terms of compliance and it’s too bureaucratic and too hard to get things done.

We're going back to the very beginning of our journey and revisiting MGS1 with it's Gamecube remake, Twin Snakes. As one would expect, we had a great time overall especially thanks to Ryuhei Kitamura's ridiculous cutscenes. And Speaking of Kitamura, we also watched his 2000 film, Versus which love it or hate it, there's nothing else like it.Episode 87: Notacon

Today, we're speaking to Andrew McClarey, who works as a GP and Education co-ordinator Lead for General Practice in the Scottish Centre for Simulation and Clinical Human Factors. Title of paper: “Quick wins” vs “eating the frog”: Exploring general practitioners' prioritisation dilemmasAvailable at: https://doi.org/10.3399/BJGP.2025.0628Link to tactical decision making games: https://archive.johs.org.uk/article/doi/10.54531/svvw4195This is the first study to look at the factors which experienced GPs consider when prioritising their acute workload. Several themes have emerged which highlight the importance of prioritisation training in General Practice. These themes could be used to teach prioritisation decision making to GP registrars or in the creation of continuing professional development resources for experienced GPs.TranscriptThis transcript was generated using AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Please be aware it may contain errors or omissions.Speaker A00:00:00.400 - 00:00:56.560Hi and welcome to BJ GP Interviews. I'm Nada Khan and I'm one of the Associate editors of the Journal. Thanks for listening to this podcast today.In today's episode, we're speaking to Dr. Andrew McClary.Andrew is a GP partner and he also works as Education Coordinator, Lead for General Practice in the Scottish Centre for Simulation and Clinical Human Factors. We're here today to discuss the paper that he's recently published in the bjjp.And the paper is titled Quick Wins versus Eating the Frog, Exploring general practitioners Prioritization dilemmas. So, hi, Andrew, it's really nice to meet you.And this paper really stood out to us, I think, because prioritisation is something that gps do every day, but it's not really something that we discuss explicitly. I'm just interested in what made you do this work and made you interested in studying it.Speaker B00:00:57.200 - 00:02:00.600It's interesting, I think, that for me, I finished my GP training just after the pandemic and therefore I did a lot of my training during the COVID pandemic. And around then the face of general practice, like most things in life, changed completely overnight.We moved on to telephone consulting and being encouraged to have empty waiting rooms.And I think around the same time we realized that we probably couldn't continue doing what we had been doing, which was being everything to everyone, which brought us on to prioritizing our workload. We have to decide who needs seen, who does not, and when are they seen. And that was a real gap for me in the training that I was provided.And I found myself going into working as a fully qualified GP without really an awareness of how to prioritise in a, in a sensible way. And I think that's where this interest was born out of.Speaker A00:02:00.760 - 00:02:42.050And before we get into what you found, it's probably worth saying a little bit about how you approach the study. So this was a qualitative interview study involving gps from a range of practices and career stages.And what you did was you really explored how they prioritized work during the course of a typical surgery.And then I guess through those interviews you looked at sort of the strategies and influences and trade offs that shaped those decisions in everyday general practice. But one of the things I found really interesting was that prioritization wasn't just about clinical urgency.And I wonder if you could talk through some of the other factors that GPs are weighing up quickly, I suppose, when they're deciding what to tackle first.Speaker B00:02:42.690 - 00:06:17.800Absolutely.It was very interesting, the themes that emerged from the data and also actually how much agreement There was amongst the gps in the focus groups, as we're not traditionally a group of people who agree about very much. So one thing that GP is particularly interested in, there's five main themes. One is about the system awareness.So we're aware about our own surgeries and where the pressure points are.For example, we're low on particular acute slots today, or there's a certain type of patient that is coming in more frequently at the moment, so we're aware of that. But it's not just having that awareness, it's also being able to adjust how we consult based on the pressures that the system are under.For example, if there are a lot of children or fevers coming in, we want to see them all face to face. We ask the admin team, just bring them all in face to face and we'll see them that way, rather than setting everything up over the phone.So it's not just an awareness of the system, but actually adjusting ourselves to that demand. Another one is the time management. What's the most efficient use of my time?How am I going to get out on time this evening for nursery pickup or whatever else I have to do in the evening? But it's not just our time, it's also the system's time.So what I mean by that is, I know if I try and refer to a hospital service in the afternoon, they'll probably be at capacity. If I do that in the morning, I am much more or first thing, except an afternoon surgery.I'm much more likely to have my patient accepted and managed in a way that I think is most appropriate for them. Also, third theme, familiarity with our patients.We are more familiar with our patients and therefore we don't have to go trawl through their histories. We know, right? I know that patient, I know what that's about. I spoke to them about it last week. Let's just phone them first and move on.That's an easy thing for me to do. Then relationships.Fourth theme, relationships with patients, in that we develop a trusting relationship, particularly if you've been working in a practice for a long period of time.For example, we might be able to have a conversation on the phone saying, well, are you as bad as you were the last time, for example, when you went to hospital with your copd? Is it as bad as that? Well, no, no, Doctor, not as bad as that. And you know these patients and you trust them to tell you the story like it is.But we also not only prioritise relationships with our patients, but also with other staff members.For example, if you're interrupted during a duty doctor session and it's the practice nurse who is needing help with something, that person is there in front of you. They're a valued member of your team and you want to be able to provide input for them in a timely way.And I guess that takes us back to system awareness. We know that that nurse has also got lots of patients to see, and if there's a delay in that, then the whole system is suffering from it.And then lastly, fifth is this idea of personal preferences. Some of us like doing hard things first, so that's eating the frog.Some of us like the quick wins and the endorphin release, of actually seeing all of the columns or all of the slots in the IT system changing a different color, we get a bit of a rush from that. There's no right or wrong answer with this, but actually a lot of it does come down to that.But it's also about looking after ourselves, but also balancing that against good patient care and what needs to be done first from a clinical urgency perspective.Speaker A00:06:18.360 - 00:06:45.170And the title of the paper is Quick Wins versus Eating the Frog.And I find that really interesting because from my own clinical practice, sometimes I feel like I'm telling myself off if I'm only taking off the easy tasks, because I know then at the end of the day I'm going to have all the long referral letters, the things that I've really been putting off. And I think, gosh, why did I leave it to this point, really?But I wonder if you can explain what that means a bit more generally, and why it captured something important about GP decision making.Speaker B00:06:45.570 - 00:08:12.210I think ultimately, for me, it's about when we are at the trainee stage. We are actually honest about how we approach prioritizing our workload. And I think ultimately that comes down to personality.Some of us like doing the more difficult things first, and then we feel that we've got the wind at our back and we're able to go on about our afternoon knowing that the most difficult thing in that list is done. In fact, the quote goes, eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen you for the rest of the day.And I think that's probably paraphrasing a little bit, but I think that's the thing. If the worst thing is out of the way, the afternoon suddenly seems much better versus actually some of us need that endorphin release.And the highs, I guess, of actually seeing, feeling that we're going through our afternoon at a Good rate. And we are managing things well and some of us like that.But I think ultimately, if we can have that conversation at the trainee stage to say, look, you're either a frog eater or you're a quick winner and you have to decide which you are. And maybe actually you're at the point in your career where you have the opportunity to actually try these out.Say, right, we'll do the hardest thing first, how does that feel? Versus, you know, take off a few easy things, how does...

Introducing the All Def SquADD Cast show “Versus". It's a podcast with the OG SquADD! Each week, the SquADD will debate topics and vote at the end to see what wins. Versus airs every Monday and you can download and listen wherever podcasts are found.Special GuestMandalKanisha BussThis Week We DiscussLate Nite Munchies; Jack In The Box vs Waffle HouseCold Shower vs Used Bath Water6 Months In Jail Consecutively vs One Day A Month for 2 Years

Introducing the All Def SquADD Cast show “Versus". It's a podcast with the OG SquADD! Each week, the SquADD will debate topics and vote at the end to see what wins. Versus airs every Monday and you can download and listen wherever podcasts are found.Special GuestBrent TaylorKeon PoleeThis Week We DiscussDate Someone W/ Bad Manners vs Bad BreathFlying Broomstick vs Magic CarpetHand Out Divorce Lawyer cards At A Wedding vs Life Insurance Cards At A FuneralS/o To Our SponsorsCash AppUse Code SECURE10 At Sign Up To Receive $10nWhen You Send $5 To A Friend!SQUARESquare.com/GO/SQUADDGet up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at square.com/go/squadd! #squarepod

The countdown to 600 is on, and Sean and Todd go back to basics — just the two of them, the old formula, and a deep dive that turns into one of the most thoughtful conversations the show has had in a while.It starts with real life — sod cutters, Red River gumbo, sewer maintenance gone slightly wrong, and severe weather that hit Manitoba hard. Then Sean reveals something genuinely impressive: he pulled the entire back catalogue of the show into a spreadsheet, tagged every episode by segment type, and even built a working spin wheel inside Excel for the Wheel of Topics segment.From there the episode turns into a proper Eddie Van Halen tribute deep dive — comparing how various artists have honored Eddie since his passing, debating whether emulating a legend's style is more respectful than finding your own voice, and landing on a clear ranking by the end.This episode covers:Home improvement chaos — sod cutters, Red River gumbo, and building a shed in tight quartersSewer maintenance gone slightly sideways and an inventive defense system involving Saran Wrap and kitty litterSevere Manitoba weather — tornado warnings, hail, and flooding memories from years pastThe big data project — Sean catalogued nearly a decade of episodes into a spreadsheet, tagged every segment type, and built a custom spin wheel for the Wheel of Topics in ExcelA full tribute song breakdown comparing how different artists have honored Eddie Van Halen since his passing, including tracks inspired by his playing style and a tribute by his former Van Halen bandmate David Lee RothA real debate about authenticity in music — whether trying to emulate a legend's exact style serves them better than simply being inspired by them and creating something originalA side-by-side comparison of two very different tribute approaches, one channeling the spirit of the music and one trying to replicate technique directlyReflections on the Rush farewell concert footage, Alex Lifeson and Geddy Lee, drummer Anika Nilles stepping into Neil Peart's role, and the emotional weight of watching a band's legacy carry forwardA recommendation of a deeply researched music biography that reframes how the band's early influences shaped their soundA preview of new original music coming for episode 600, including a tribute piece dedicated to longtime patron and podcaster Kevin BrownPass or Go and Versus segments return — Incorrect Headlines saved for the 600th episodePatron shoutouts and the full breakdown of all four Patreon tiers, including the new $75 tier from The Trailer Behind the Metal ShoppeFind us everywhere: @seangeekpodcastWebsite: seanmcginty.caSupport the show: patreon.com/seangeekpodcast

As AI investment keeps growing, our strategists Carolyn Campbell and Vishwas Patkar discuss the many ways tech infrastructure gets financed and the opportunities for investors.Read more insights from Morgan Stanley.----- Transcript -----Carolyn Campbell: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Carolyn Campbell, Morgan Stanley's Asset-Backed Securities Strategist. Vishwas Patkar: And I'm Vishwas Patkar, Morgan Stanley's Head of U.S. Corporate Credit Strategy. Carolyn Campbell: Today, how fixed income markets are helping fund the AI build-out. It's Thursday, June 18th, at 10am in New York. Let's get right into it, Vishwas. We've both come on this podcast before to talk about how credit markets are financing the AI build-out. And over the last ten months, I think it's fair to say that things are faster, broader, deeper than we perhaps expected initially. This investment now spans investment-grade corporate bonds, high yield loans, and a range of securitized products. From your seat in corporate credit, why does AI infrastructure matter so much, to investors right now? Vishwas Patkar: This is a big talking point in our client discussions. it's also telling that less than a year ago, we wrote about this topic for the first time, identifying a $1.5 trillion financing gap that credit markets could help bridge. At that time, data center debt was not something that investors were really focused on. Yet less than 12 months forward, this, I think, is the number one theme dominating both your and my market. And why it's important, I would say, is across, three key vectors. First, just the scale. So, if you look at overall AI-related debt issuance so far this year, we're close to $250 billion. For the balance of the year, we expect that number to double, so about $500 billion of total AI debt financing for 2026. Increasingly the second vector, I think, is around the complexity of deals. So initially, while AI financing was dominated by vanilla investment-grade corporate bond deals, we are now seeing that broaden out into project finance style deals in the high-yield market. We have seen an uptick in chip financing across the different credit silos. And that's important for investors, as identifying value across these different options does require deep credit expertise. And third, as this investment cycle rolls along, it's also important to be cognizant of risks that are building. Not just from a very broad top-down sense around the demand for compute. But also, what are some of the nuances in these different structures – whether it is in data center construction or is in chip financing that investors will need to monitor. So, it's across these three themes that we think data center debt financing is gaining importance. Carolyn Campbell: Now, the underlying demand for AI infrastructure is very strong. That doesn't necessarily mean that every bond tied to this theme is automatically going to be attractive. And as you mentioned, [$]500 billion of supply for the year; a large amount of complexity between those structures.How should credit investors think about the various risks within these different structures? Vishwas Patkar: So, in investment grade, the story is a bit simpler. So, we have had unsecured hyperscaler bond issuance. We have had issuance from semiconductor names. And then we've had some, what we call, private style data center deals. But the vast majority still comes from hyperscaler investment grade rated bonds. For this market, our focus is less on fundamentals because fundamentals are very strong. And then hyperscaler are some of the more most creditworthy companies that we've seen in the history of the market. Our emphasis more is on just the quantum of supply. So, year to date, we have had north of [$]100 billion of hyperscaler debt in the dollar market. We've had north of [$]50 billion being issued in other currencies. If you look at the overall investment grade market, supply is up almost 25 percent versus last year. That's consistent with our call for a year of record issuance this year. And increasingly, if you look forward and then map these issuance numbers to our CapEx estimates, where we could very much be on track for another record to be hit next year. So, the issue of the investment grade market is not around the fundamentals of the companies or these deals. It's more about the quantum of supply, which we think eventually will test the demand capacity of this market. And our base case for the investment grade space is similar to 1997-1998, where credit was starting to finance the business cycle, spreads widened modestly, and IG could underperform other risk assets. But over a longer time horizon, spreads still look historically very low. Carolyn Campbell: Now, what about further down the credit spectrum into the non-investment grade portion? What about that part of the issuance spectrum for AI? Vishwas Patkar: Yeah. So, what we're seeing in the sub-investment grade space, especially in high yield, is very different. There, the growth in data center financing has happened around project finance deals for data center construction. In many cases, these have come from crypto miner companies that effectively provide what we call speed to power solutions. We've also had some unsecured issuance from neo clouds, although that's relatively small. But this sector has expanded from effectively zero billion around the fall of last year to about [$]40 billion this year. We expect to see another [$]20 billion of issuance by the end of 2026. And the way they fit into this whole ecosystem is – these project finance deals we think are interesting diversifiers for regular credit investors. They do come with construction risks, especially initially for the first two to three years till the data center is up and running. But on the flip side, you do get a lot of structural enhancements and creditor protections, which is something you don't see in the vast majority of the high yield market. So, I think a key shift in the framework that investors have to do for these deals is focus on asset-level risk, which is again, I think a big divergence from how the vast majority of the credit market trades, which is largely unsecured corporate-level risk that investors have been used to. Carolyn Campbell: All right. You just brought up construction risks. Do you think that's the biggest risk facing the high-yield investors today? Vishwas Patkar: Yes. I think for the high-yield deals in particular, construction risk is the dominant vector that investors are focused on. Because it's important to remember a lot of the debt issuers are first-time borrowers. And they have a limited track record of construction in the past. So, you could see potential delays and things like cost overruns that can affect sentiment on the sector. Or at least on specific bond deals. And this will be especially important to monitor going into the second half of the year, as we have some of the first delivery dates coming up for the deals in the sector that were announced last year. That being said, you know, even though some of the tenants have termination rights, if delays go beyond 180 days, our view is that given the structural power constraints, these termination rights are unlikely to be exercised. So, while construction milestones can affect sentiment and short-term valuations, we would look at any blips as buying opportunities in the space. Alright. So Carolyn, let me throw this back to you. So, construction risk clearly very important for the corporate credit market, especially for high yield investors. Is that something ABS investors or commercial mortgage-backed investors care about? And in what other ways are these asset classes different from corporate credit? Carolyn Campbell: Okay. So first and foremost, the biggest difference is that in securitized products, the assets are stabilized, they're cash flowing, they're online. We don't have that first vector of construction risk in our space. The second biggest difference is while in high yield and IG we've mostly seen – or we've entirely seen single campus, single tenant data centers; in securitization issuance, it's mostly multi-tenant, multi-asset, multi-regional, deals that have come to market. And so, it's a very different risk profile. And as a consequence, investors are focused not just on who is behind this one single lease and what are the termination rates, but what does the landscape look like in general for compute? How does that affect vacancy and churn rates? And then lastly, the issuers themselves are different. You talked about the crypto companies. You get a little bit more of the data center, data center construction. Whereas in securitized products, these are companies that have been around for 5, 10, 20 years. They're accustomed to managing a fleet of assets, dozens if not hundreds of tenants. They've got a little bit more of a track record for the most part, than the types of issuers we're seeing in the credit market. Vishwas Patkar: Your market post-construction, more leverage to the thematic of demand for compute – and how the AI investment cycle is playing out. Versus the corporate credit market, which is largely exposed to construction risks as the data centers get built out. So that's a very important difference.That being said, one theme that ties both our markets are just healthy fundamentals, but at the same time heavy supply. So, I talked about how we see that affecting our view on investment grade. How is that same tension showing up in securitized products? Carolyn Campbell: So exactly as you said, the fundamental story is very strong. We don't see deterioration in performance of the assets either that has happened yet or that we expect to come in the near term. So, it really is a technically driven story. Supply in this space, we're forecasting at around [$]30 billion for year, so smaller in magnitude, but relatively large for the market. That has very elevated supply expectations, and so as a consequence, we've seen spreads back up across the space. We do think that some of the cross-asset comparisons will help keep spreads contained from here. And so, we do see value in securitized credit across the stack for the rest of the year. Vishwas Patkar: All right. So, you brought up the cross-asset comparison. And so, we've discussed the fundamental differences in our market, how much issuance we expect. But, you know, just to end on a commercial note – if we are advising investors on where is the best relative value and what's the framework for comparing opportunities, how do you think about that? Where do we see value across the ecosystem? Carolyn Campbell: I mean, I think this is probably the biggest question that investors that are looking at this space are facing today. And there's... If we're thinking just about the data center backed assets, I think there are two main things. One is the asset itself, where we're focused on things like the geography, the tenant, the interconnectivity, the flexibility of this asset for multiple uses. And then the second is on the structure of the deal itself. How much leverage is being raised against the asset? How cash flowing is it? And then of course, the duration as well. But it's a great question. And because of the complexity of this space, it can be really hard to compare one to the other. Vishwas Patkar: Yeah. And, at the risk of providing a non-answer, I very much think investors are in the process of coming up with a framework because these deals have come very quickly. This is a new sector for most credit investors to analyze. But I think what we can say with a high degree of certainty is this is blurring the lines between corporate credit and securitized credit. So, you know, this opens up more avenues for us to collaborate on this topic going forward. Carolyn Campbell: All right. That's a great place for us to leave it today with that nice cross-collaboration. Vishwas, thank you so much for taking the time to talk. Vishwas Patkar: Great speaking with you, Caroline. Carolyn Campbell: Thanks for listening. If you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please leave us a review wherever you listen and share the podcast with a friend or colleague today.

In part two of the Stuck Series, Lesley Logan unpacks why feeling stuck rarely has anything to do with a lack of motivation and what's really keeping you frozen. She breaks down how mismatched systems, unrealistic expectations, and unspoken fear quietly drain your energy, and offers a practical framework for moving forward. Find out how messy action, not motivation, is what finally gets you unstuck. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co mailto:beit@lesleylogan.co. And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:The role outsourcing and systems play in getting unstuck.How motivation is fickle and why you can't rely on it.Why mismatched expectations vs. reality requires a rebuildNaming the fear underneath the freeze, plus building a backup plan.Tactile tools: two-minute rule, friction reducers, and messy action.Episode References/Links:The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin - https://a.co/d/0fgVJtiKTiny Habits by BJ Fogg - https://tinyhabits.comEp. 613 Habit Series 1 - https://beitpod.com/ep613Ep. 614 Habit Series 2 - https://beitpod.com/ep614Ep. 616 Habit Series 3 - https://beitpod.com/ep616Ep. 617 Habit Series 4 - https://beitpod.com/ep617Ep. 619 Habit Series 5 - https://beitpod.com/ep619Ep. 620 Habit Series 6 - https://beitpod.com/620Ep. 622 Habit Series 7 - https://beitpod.com/ep622Ep. 623 Habit Series 8 - https://beitpod.com/623Ep. 256 with Rory Vaden - https://beitpod.com/ep256Ep. 688 Outgrowing Series 1 - https://beitpod.com/ep688Ep. 689 Outgrowing Series 2 - https://beitpod.com/ep689Ep. 93 with Jillian Flodstrom - https://beitpod.com/ep93Ep. 589 with Brad Bizjack - https://beitpod.com/ep589Cambodia Retreat Waitlist - https://crowsnestretreats.comSubmit your wins or questions - https://beitpod.com/questionsIf you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentCheck out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper's Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentBe in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlistBe It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-surveyBe a part of Lesley's Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gLesley Logan website https://lesleylogan.co/Be It Till You See It Podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjogqXLnfyhS5VlU4rdzlnQProfitable Pilates https://profitablepilates.com/about/Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesley.logan/The Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gFacebook https://www.facebook.com/llogan.pilatesLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-logan/The OPC YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@OnlinePilatesClasses Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  Taking the action, taking an action that helps get you unstuck, is the antidote to fear, and it brings clarity. Action brings clarity. That's the hardest thing about all of this, is we're all waiting for motivation, or for us to just like wake up one day unstuck, but truthfully, we have to take a step, take some messy action to actually get unstuck. Lesley Logan 0:21  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. Lesley Logan 1:04  Hi, Be It babe, welcome back. We're back on our stuck series, so we're getting unstuck today. So last episode we actually talked about what does feeling stuck actually feel like, and is it actually that we're stuck? And we kind of realized that we're not stuck, right? We might just be overwhelmed or lacking support or tools to get to where we want to go. We might have overwhelmed ourselves, or we might be putting pressure on ourselves, and that might be why we're feeling this way. It might be like being a perfectionist again. Sometimes it sneaks back up on us, right? So, the one thing that I hear people say that they need when they're feeling stuck is motivation, and we have to talk about motivation, because motivation is not the thing. Lesley Logan 1:37  I used to think that I'm just a super motivated person. When I was younger, I was like, "Oh my god, if I said I was gonna do something, I do it," right? And what you realize when you read The Four Tendencies book by Gretchen Rubin, you discover like, "Oh no, that's just a tendency I have." If I say I'm gonna do something, I do it, whereas other people need an accountability partner, or some people need to be able to make decisions. I'm gonna do what I said to do. So, as I got a little bit older and a bit in the stage of my life where I was running my businesses and there were things going on and I was struggling to do them, I thought, "Oh my god, I just need motivation to work on that." And because of the ADHD brain, I was probably just seeking dopamine hits, and that's how I was getting things done. As I worked on myself and got to know myself and stopped overwhelming and overloading myself with things to do, I actually just became a person who was, I don't know, whelmed. It wasn't motivation that I needed, but systems to help me continue to do the things that I said I wanted to do, and also with systems, making sure that I wasn't saying yes to things just because they were cool. Lesley Logan 2:41  So because I know me better, I have better boundaries, and because I understand how motivation works, I don't actually wait for the motivation to do the things. I understand how to set myself up so I can take one step at a time, celebrate what I did do, and then go again the next day. I'm no longer a person who's like, "I have to get my to-do list done every day," because that pressure actually slows me down, and it makes me not feel like I'm me doing the thing, right? I'm not a patient person. So, in case you're like, "Oh, I wish I was you," I'm not a patient person. So, if I can do it, if I can take action on the things that I want to do, if I can help myself move the needle one millimeter forward in a day, you can do it too, right?Lesley Logan 3:27  Because we don't need motivation. And if you didn't hear our episodes in December of 2025 about habits, where I talked about motivation as a very fickle girlfriend, and you can learn more about this in BJ Fogg's book, Tiny Habits, but essentially motivation is needed when something is very difficult to get started. Like when you turn on a car, you have a starter, right? I think that's what it is, and it helps get the car started. You also use more gas to get the car started, right? Planes are the same thing. And so you need motivation to get rolling, but then once you're rolling, you don't use as much gasoline, as much energy, or you don't need those things, right? So, motivation is best to be used when something is a bigger deal, or is going to require more of us than we are used to, but then once we have gotten started, ideally we're not waiting on motivation to just keep the ball rolling. That's where systems come into place, right? Lesley Logan 4:21  Motivation also is not something you can just go up, tap in, hit the motivation button, "I'm ready to go." Motivation is actually a fickle friend. It's kind of like my ADHD focus mode without Adderall. Yes, sometimes it hits, and I'm like, "Oh my god, I just got so much done," but mostly it doesn't ever hit at the time that I want it to hit. It's not going to hit because something's due tomorrow; it hits because of my ADHD, but it won't hit like, "I want to do it now and not under pressure." It doesn't hit then, right? So I can't wait for it. I talked about this in our habit series, motivation, you have to think of as like a really great friend that you go to parties with, but that you don't actually rely on to pick you up at an airport to take you to an important meeting. You would never do that. Lesley Logan 5:03  So, if the tasks that you are asking yourself to do don't match your energy, you are likely doing things that do not bring you joy, and if they did before, they don't now. Oftentimes we're doing things that we think we should be able to do, or we think we have to do, or we don't have the money to delegate it out, but just because you have done that before doesn't mean you have to keep doing it. What I will just say is part of getting out of a rut is looking at the responsibilities you feel you are supposed to be the person to take those on and actually ask yourself, "Is this something that I need to be doing? Does this have to be done right now? Does it have to be done today?" Because it may be time to outsource some of the things that you need to happen in your life, so that you can have the time and energy to do what you said you wanted to do. Lesley Logan 5:56  If you come on my retreats, oftentimes I'm like, "Hey, we can outsource. You can have groceries delivered. You can just save all your time driving to the grocery store, going up and down the aisles. You could just have them delivered. You can have a housekeeper clean your house, right, especially for the deep cleans." But honestly, we have that every week. Why? Because one, I like a clean house, because I want to work in that environment, but I don't like to clean the house. Because I don't like to clean the house, it makes me exhausted when I do it, and then it's done, I have this clean house now. Guess what? I don't want to work in it because I'm exhausted. So the tasks that you have on your plate don't match the energy, and then they're draining you, and that makes you feel stuck. So you can come on a retreat with me in Cambodia to learn how to figure out what you should get off of your list, but if you don't want to wait till that, I just want you to take a look.Lesley Logan 6:43  What are all the things that you think you should be doing? Are there tools now that would make those things easier? Pick the one that you least want to do, you avoid doing, and that lives rent-free in space in your head, right? How can we get rid of it, or get someone else to support us on that? Your systems that you're relying on often aren't matching the brain that you operate with. I have ADHD, and in order to get my work done, I have support from a psychiatrist. So, I do take an Adderall, and when I take it, I actually can focus, and then I can actually use the tools that I have put in place to help me get my work done. I definitely can tell days when I have it versus when I don't. I don't take it on my days off, but I can tell that trying to do the things that I need to get done on a workday without it, I end the workday more exhausted and wondering, "Why do I do what I do? Am I doing the right thing? Am I aligned? Do I even love this job anymore?" because it took so much out of me to get it done than when I have the support that my brain requires, right?Lesley Logan 7:46  But whether or not you have ADHD, the more you can understand how you think, how you operate, and have systems that match that, you know? If you are making to-do lists and never using them, then that's not helping you. You need to figure out a different tool. If you are making the projects that you have to do on your to-do list so big "build a website" of course, you're gonna feel stuck. That's a humongous task that will not get crossed off for four to six weeks at least. So we have to figure out, what are the ways that you operate? How do you meet expectations? I mentioned it before, but Gretchen Rubin's book, The Four Tendencies, is an excellent read. It helps you understand how do you meet the expectations you have, or that others have, and then when you know that, you can put systems in place. Lesley Logan 8:24  For example, Brad is a rebel, and Brad will say, "Oh, I'm going to get up early tomorrow and do yoga." Okay, but if I wake him up and go, "Hey, you wanted to get up early this morning and do yoga," he will say, "No, I don't want to do it," because he wants to have choice. He must have choice, right? Because he's a rebel, that's how you meet the expectations. So, if I say, "Hey, babe, yesterday you had mentioned that you wanted to get up and do some yoga, so did you still want to do that, or did you want to sleep for a little longer?" When I present it to him like that, he always is like, "Oh, no, I'm going to do the yoga," because he does want to do it, but he wants to have choice, right? If you're an obliger, you are someone who needs accountability to get things done, so you need to find ways in your systems to have accountability to get things done, so you get them done. I'm an upholder, so if I said it I'm going to do it, which is also why if I say no to you, it's not because I don't love you, it's because I know I won't be able to get it done. I will never backtrack on an agreement, right? So if your systems don't match how you operate, then you are going to get stuck and overwhelmed. Lesley Logan 8:25  Okay, another way to get out of the rut is matching your expectations with reality, so you're not unmotivated, you're mismatched. Like if you have an expectation like, "Okay, tomorrow I'm gonna get up early. I know I'm not a morning person, but I'm gonna get up early, and I'm gonna go run two miles." But one, you're not a morning person, and you haven't run in a year. You're not doing those things, and that's going to feel like, "Oh my god, I just wasn't motivated." No, you are not that person. You are not someone who wakes up early. You are not someone who runs.Lesley Logan 9:57  So we actually have to make sure that the expectations that we have placed on ourselves actually match the reality of what systems we have in place today, right? So, if you're like, "I want to make 10,000 a month with my business," but you're not even making 1,000 a month, those expectations don't match reality. You actually have to first make 1,100, and 1,200, 2,000, and then 5,000. You can have the goal that "I want to make 10,000 a month," but you can't do it next month if you have never done it before, right? They don't match reality, so you basically have put pressure on yourself and overwhelmed yourself, and put yourself in a stuck position. Versus if you took time to go, "Okay, what are some realistic expectations that I can place on myself that I can do this week, and then I could do tomorrow and I can do today?" working backwards, then you actually don't need motivation; you'll have broken things down in a way that allows you to get them done. Lesley Logan 10:51  So, I will say, like the ADHD, we talked about this a moment ago, but yes, it has that super focus mode, but like the motivation, we can't wait for it. So what I highly recommend to my ADHD people is you really can't lean on motivation. You can't wait for those focus modes. You have to learn your brain, and you have to learn the systems that help you. And there are some great experts out there. You know, Brad piles the mail all in this one place, so every day we pick up the mail, that's a win for an ADHD couple, and we put it in a pile. We don't put it anywhere, we put it in a pile, and then on Mondays he actually goes through it, right? That's the system that works. I mean, you'd be surprised, I know you think you don't operate well with systems, but when you get the systems that work for you, they work for you, and so it really helps you remain unstuck and not leaning on motivation or focus mode to help you like clean everything. Because what we know you're gonna do is organize a cupboard and then not have cleaned anything, and now we have a messier kitchen. I know. Hello, I know me. Lesley Logan 11:49  Fear is another real reason to feel stuck. So, if you're listening to this because the outgoing episode really got your attention, you've outgrown an old version of yourself, but you're feeling stuck right now because of fear, fear of loss, fear of responsibility, fear of failure. Right, that's real. It's real, and it's important that we don't diminish the fear that we have. If that is what the problem is, because anyone telling you there's nothing to be afraid of, it's not helpful, right? It's like someone telling me like, "Calm down." You're like, "Do you want to see me calm down?" So, what I know about fear in the studies that I've done on it, the really important things that you can do is, one, call it out. What are you afraid of? What are you afraid is going to happen? If you don't want to say it out loud, write it down. If you don't know what it is, but you know there's a fear there, then just keep writing until it comes out, right? What is this thing that I'm afraid is going to happen? "I'm afraid no one's, everyone's gonna... no one's gonna like me." No one is gonna like you. And then you're like, "Why am I afraid about that? Why do I think that's gonna happen?" right? Like, take some time to really understand why you have this fear, because if you can actually identify it, then we can create an exit strategy, right? A backup plan. Because the truth is that nothing ever is as bad as or as good as we want or fear. "Oh my god, if I do this thing, I'm gonna die." Well, that's not happening, because you just listened to this. "Oh my god, if this goes so well, I'm gonna have a million dollars." Well, maybe you do, but most of the time we land somewhere on a spectrum, and so take some time to like really truly go, "What am I actually afraid of?" Lesley Logan 13:22  So you can have a backup plan, so then you can move forward, right? Because these practical shifts, they actually help, because an all-or-nothing mindset is what's keeping you stuck, right? Like, this practical... like, "Okay, I'm afraid that if I do this thing, I'm gonna lose everything." You're gonna lose everything, okay? All of it. Like, if this thing goes wrong, you're not gonna have any of this to back up on? Then you start to realize, "Well, no, actually, I'll just lose $1,000. I'll lose $3,000." Okay, that's a legit fear. I don't want to lose $3,000 ever. I don't want to lose $3. So, what things can help me realize if I'm on the wrong path? What are some signs or KPIs that could help me before it goes the wrong way, so I could stop it and turn the ship around? Or if that does happen, then what will I do? Because when you have that, all of a sudden you have clarity. Because get this: action is the antidote to fear. Taking the action, taking an action that helps get you unstuck is the antidote to fear, and it brings clarity. Action brings clarity. That's the hardest thing about all of this: we're all waiting for motivation, or for us to just wake up one day unstuck, but truthfully, we have to take a step, take some messy action to actually get unstuck. Lesley Logan 14:35  So, I did want to give you guys a couple of tactile things, like some "be it" things. So, one is like a two-minute rule. Sometimes a two-minute rule can be, "I can feel this way for two minutes and I'm gonna get started," or "I can do this thing over here in two minutes at a time, or I'll get started." That's helpful. Also, you can break down all the tasks you want to do into two minutes. We had Jillian Flodstrom on as a guest, and I think she said it in the podcast, but she might have done it in a webinar for us. Anyway, you should listen to her episode. She said like, "I break all tasks into something I can do in two minutes, because that makes it really easy. I'm waiting two minutes, I can do one thing. Okay, I can do this next thing," right? Lesley Logan 15:08  Reducing friction, so this is going to be just like taking a moment to see how many things that you have going on that are actually causing friction in your life. Are you trying to get too much stuff done in a day, or in a morning? Are you trying to be a morning person? How can we reduce that friction, so that it's just a little easier to get things done, right? Maybe it's the deadlines that you placed on yourself. How can you do that? Or perhaps it's like, "Okay, I cook for everybody all week long, but I just can't." Okay, how do we ask for help? So, just reduce the friction. And this is crazy, I know some people at the Be It Till You See It podcast are gonna say this, yeah, lower your expectations. Lower expectations of yourself, especially because sometimes we set the bar at 150%. Honey, you can be at 100% and you're still gonna slay more than most people. Most people don't take action. Most people have the same thoughts every single day. So, if you could just actually operate on an actual scale of 100%, not 150%, you would be unstuck tomorrow, yesterday, right? Because you don't need to do the whole thing, you don't need to be able to do all the things that will help get you unstuck.Lesley Logan 16:19  You just need to begin to do one thing, take one step. And I said this already a couple of times, take this messy action, because if motivation isn't the thing that's going to get us moving, because it's not, I mean, it might get us started on something really difficult, but it's not going to be the day-to-day, then what we actually need is messy action. And you hear that in every intro of all of our podcasts: "take messy action." And the reason is because you get some good feedback. So we will have some messy action episodes coming up for you soon in a future series, but until then, I'd love for you to take a moment, maybe revisit the first episode, and really identify like, "Am I actually stuck or am I in overwhelm, or do I have outdated systems, or do I just need a little bit of clarity to get started on this next thing? Or am I afraid?" Once you have identified how you're stuck and what's going on, you can take the first next steps to anything, and that means being it until you see it. Lesley Logan 17:17  All right, my loves, send this to a friend who needs to hear it. Thank you so much for being you. Send in any questions or aha moments at beitpod.com/questions, and until next time, Be It Till You See It. Lesley Logan 17:27  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 18:10  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 18:14  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 18:19  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 18:26  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 18:29  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Tim Foot, CEO of Slingshot Group. With nearly three decades of ministry and leadership experience having worked with thousands of churches, Tim brings deep insight into one of the most critical drivers of church health: your team. In this conversation, we explore what separates stagnant teams from those that create real momentum and how leaders can shift from survival to remarkable impact. Why teams stall out. // After working with thousands of churches, Tim consistently sees the same patterns: unclear expectations, misaligned priorities, lack of structure, and unspoken tension. Many teams are overly task-driven but underdeveloped relationally. Others don't fully understand how their strengths and weaknesses fit together. The danger of “hero-driven leadership.” // When a church relies too heavily on one standout leader to carry the mission it results in what Tim calls “hero-driven leadership.” While it can produce short-term results, it ultimately leads to burnout, unrealistic expectations, and fragile systems. Leaders often fall into this trap because it feels productive, and even rewarding, to be the one with all the answers. But over time, it limits team development and creates dependency instead of shared ownership. From hero to team. // The future of healthy ministry is team-based leadership. Instead of building ministries around individuals, churches must build systems and cultures where teams thrive together. This requires leaders humbly admitting they don't have all the answers and a willingness to slow down in order to build alignment. When leaders shift from being the “hero” to developing others, they unlock far greater long-term impact. The seven “key signatures” of remarkable teams. // Tim introduces a framework of seven core areas that every healthy team must develop: conviction, message, culture, roles, systems, friction, and risk. These “key signatures” work together like elements in music, providing structure that leads to a strong, unified outcome. Conviction anchors the mission (“why we exist”), while message communicates that mission clearly. Culture shapes how people experience the team, and roles define how individuals contribute. Systems enable growth, friction drives improvement, and risk fuels breakthrough. Why friction is actually healthy. // One of the most counterintuitive ideas Tim shares is that healthy teams need friction. Many leaders try to eliminate tension, assuming harmony equals health. But in reality, the absence of friction often means important issues are being avoided. Healthy friction leads to better ideas, stronger alignment, and greater innovation. The key is ensuring it doesn't become personal. When friction turns relationally destructive, it's unhealthy. But when it stays focused on ideas and outcomes, it becomes a powerful driver of growth. A practical tool for leaders. // To help teams take action, Tim points leaders to a free “team awareness assessment.” This tool helps churches evaluate how they're doing across the seven key signatures, identifying areas of strength and opportunities for growth. It's designed to spark meaningful conversations that lead to real change. A final challenge for leaders. // Tim leaves leaders with a simple but powerful reminder: if your mission matters, your team matters more. Churches often focus heavily on the people they're trying to reach, but neglect the health of the people they're leading alongside. Sustainable, mission-moving ministry requires both. To learn more about Tim's book Reaching for Remarkable: The 7 Key Signatures Behind Every Remarkable Team and take the free team assessment, visit reachingforremarkable.com or explore additional resources at slingshotgroup.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they're reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you've been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Listen, listen, listen, pull in close because today’s conversation, I don’t even know your church, but I know that a large portion of your budget is being spent on the thing we talk about. In fact, lots of churches, it’s like half of their budget. And it’s an even larger portion of the outcome of your ministry. It’s incredibly important what we’re talking about today. And so you do not want to miss this. Rich Birch — And we’ve got an expert that has worked with not tens of, not hundreds of, but literally thousands of of churches like yours and wants to help you take steps forward. Excited to have Tim Foot with us. He has nearly 30 years of experience, which I’m not sure how that’s possible, such a young man, as a leader, pastor, coach, speaker, musician in both Australia and North America, bringing a diverse background to his role as the CEO and president of Slingshot Group. If you’re not aware of who Slingshot Group is, they take the guesswork out of nonprofit and church staffing. He’s recently written a book that I’m excited for you to learn more about. But Tim, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Tim Foot — Rich, it is so glad, it’s so great to be on with you today. I’m excited about this conversation.Rich Birch — So good. I'm I’m excited for it too. Why don’t you kind of give us a bit of the Tim Foot background? Tell us a little bit about about you and kind of give us the how do we end up here in this conversation today?Tim Foot — Yeah, it’s interesting. I often say to people, I had no idea that I’d be on the other side of the world to where I started doing what I’m doing. But this is what happens, Rich, when you say, keep saying yes to God.Tim Foot — Born and raised Tasmanian, worked as a musician and in ministry in Sydney for 10 years after moving from Tasmania, then relocated to Boulder County, Colorado in 2002, been here for 25 years now in ministry at a great church called Lifebridge Christian Church. Built ministry there for 10 years and went bivocationally started working with the Slingshot Group when there was a handful of us doing a handful of staffing and coaching work and then things exploded.Tim Foot — And I really, really hit my sweet spot and saw how God had been preparing me for so many years to work with teams, love teams, love the strategy of teams, love working with people, love the fact that placing the right leader on the right team exponentially moves the mission forward and affects culture in all kinds of ways.Rich Birch — So true.Tim Foot — And so I’ve had all kinds of roles in Slingshot over the years, now get to lead our team of amazing consultants around the US serving so many, and beyond, serving so many ministries and teams move mission forward.Rich Birch — Love it. I’m so glad that, yeah, this is going to a good conversation. You know, one of the things I want to take advantage of is the fact you’re really an expert. You know, you’ve worked with, you and Slingshot have worked with thousands of churches and organizations, and you you really get a chance to see churches at an interesting inflection point.Rich Birch — You know, often when we’re hiring a team member, bringing someone in or trying to develop our teams, you know, we’re thinking about the future and we’re, we’re taking a step back. And like you say, I do think it’s a transformative inflection point that you’re involved in. Rich Birch — So you’re sitting across the table from a lot leaders, and maybe even some leaders who their mission is stalling. Like things aren’t maybe going as well as we would hope. Are yeah there any patterns in that you’re seeing, are there things that you see time and time again in churches that might be holding us back?Tim Foot — Yeah, I immediately thought of a common question we’ll ask teams when we’re brought in when it comes to needing a new person on the team or helping coach leaders. We’re often brought in in crisis moments, moments of transition, but they’re also moments of incredible opportunity.Tim Foot — And we’ll often ask the question, hey, do you want a painkiller or do you want a vitamin? And so often the the team is thinking they want the painkiller, they want the pain to go away. They want to solve the problem, they want to fill the seat, or they want to break through whatever it is they’re struggling with. But honestly, deep down, they need to start a regimen of vitamins to help them get to a healthy place to move the mission forward.Tim Foot — We often will see an unawareness that the wrong people are around the table. Or an unawareness that they need other leaders around the table to help them move forward, whether it be vocational paid leaders or volunteers.Tim Foot — We’ll often see misalignment and a lack of focus on the right things. Communication misfires around why the mission actually matters. We’ll often teams see teams that are task-driven at the expense of relationships.Tim Foot — And then an unawareness of strengths and weaknesses and how they complement each other, how they help move you forward or how they hold you back. Other patterns are a lack of structure to support the work. Elephants in the room, taboo topics, fear around failure that leads to lack of innovation. So many different patterns we’ll see and be able to diagnose and say, hey, we need to have conversation around that because I think uncorking that will help you accelerate the mission.Rich Birch — That’s cool. One of the things I love by reputation that I love about Slingshot is I love that you’re asking those bigger questions that it’s not just like, okay, how do we get to let’s just, let’s get the next hire done and move on.Rich Birch — It’s like, you know, you’re, you’re trying to ask those bigger questions and which I, that which I think, you know compliment to you and your organization that you’re trying to. Because we know when we need the painkillers, but really we need to take some good vitamins over an extended period of time to make our things more healthy for sure. Hmm.Tim Foot — You know, Rich, when we jumped into staffing work almost 20 years ago now, we had to educate the church on the need to have outside advice around staffing. But it was a lot of art and not as much science.Tim Foot — And now we’ve developed so much science around the art with with things like our candidate match tool. When you’re looking for a leader, you have to align around what you actually want in that new leader. So many teams will say, hey, we need this, this, this, this, this, this. And in the end, they’re looking for a purple unicorn. And that’s not going to help.Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — And we’ll talk about that as we get deeper in the conversation.Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Tim Foot — But Rich, last time I looked, unicorns are still mythical creatures. Rich Birch — True. Tim Foot — And so working working out what you actually need… Rich Birch — Right. Tim Foot — …and getting an awareness around alignment with who’s around the table may actually change your idea of what you’re looking for. Alignment is so important in getting an awareness of what our strengths and weaknesses are. Are we focused on the right thing? And are we actually moving the mission forward right now or is it stalled out?Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s good. One of your consultants, that remember once I was in a conversation about that very issue and and you know we had really lofty goals for what we were trying to hire. And and they they walked us through that conversation where it was like, okay, well, let’s let’s think about how many of these people are actually out there.Rich Birch — So and you list off hat half a dozen things that we were looking for and you cut back and you think, well, how many people actually work in the church? How many people have worked as long as we want to work and have had experience that we did and have done the stuff that we want to do?Rich Birch — And you literally get down to like, Well, there might be three people, you know, like, you know, and so anyways, that’s, that’s, that’s so true.Tim Foot — And actually… Rich Birch — You… Yeah, go ahead.Tim Foot — …that’s what we’ll often say. There are maybe three to five people when you have all of these filters in place, they can actually fill this role.Rich Birch — That’s true.Tim Foot — And that’s why you need to focus on ministry and you need to let us focus on finding those people.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s good. That’s great. And yeah, and if there’s three to five and one of them is Jesus, the other is the Holy Spirit. So it’s like, you know, you’re down to just a very few. You… Tim Foot — And Rich, let’s not talk about why many, many teams wouldn’t hire Jesus these days.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. That’s a whole other topic. that’s That’s great. Now, you’ve said something once that caught my attention, and it’s in my head has been branded to you. And it’s that most of us were trained on a model, a leadership model that nobody named out loud, that everyone, that we’ve all absorbed.Rich Birch — What is that model? You know, what it look like? And I know when you named this, I started seeing this everywhere I looked. I was like, oh, wow, I can see this in multiple different places in myself and in our organization. What what is this model?Tim Foot — Yeah, I mean, the the model we see is hero-driven leadership. It’s when we rely too much on individuals to actually carry the mission. And I think the cracks have happened.Tim Foot — I mean, we’ve seen it, Rich, you and I are similar ages. I think the cracks are happening generationally. The builders and boomers were wired differently for a different time and culture. And us Gen Xers, we can code switch. I mean, we we see we see that happening all the time. And as we stepped into leadership, the cracks started to appear.Tim Foot — I mean, we see it every week. Another leader burning out, doing stupid things because of too much pressure. Then millennials and Gen Z are now leading in a new way that we need to embrace.Tim Foot — And so I think we’re seeing those cracks around that hero dependence, and we’re starting to see the need more than ever to have a team awareness, a holistic approach, or we’re just going to have leaders continue to burn out.Tim Foot — And we sit we see it around unrealistic hiring expectations, a lack of support for great leaders when they’re hired, a lack of development.Tim Foot — Hero dependence is a terrible staffing and growth strategy and becomes a massive trap when it comes to a number of the key focus areas or patterns we’ve seen that healthy teams focus on and move mission forward.Rich Birch — Yeah. See, this is the thing when you, I heard you say that once and it, it literally, I sat up and I was like, oh man, I’ve seen that in my own, you know, my own hiring. I’ve seen that in the way I’ve talked with, you know, I see the leaders around me. You see these people who they’ve kind of built the entire ministry around themselves and they’ve built, it’s like, it doesn’t work if they don’t, it’s like, they’re such a unique individual. They have to lift it all. Rich Birch — But what makes that model so sticky? Like, why do we keep coming back to that? Why? Even if we know like intellectually in our heads, yeah, that’s not a good idea. It feels like we just keep coming back to this same thing time. In fact, we actually reward it. We’ll be like, wow, isn’t that great? This person’s amazing. And we just kind of keep moving on. Why is that?Tim Foot — It’s the shiny object trap. I mean, that that the the shiny object, aka the the talented leader that we think is going to catapult the ministry. Often we see it in in hiring conversations when a particular organization wants to go after somebody that’s been in at a much bigger organization than them. And often that person, if if they can attract them, will come in with a playbook that isn’t uniquely suited to the organization they’re stepping into. Or there aren’t systems to support that new leader and the growth that’s going to happen. And burnout happens at every level. But but we both know, Rich, busy work makes us feel productive. But is it the right work?Rich Birch — That’s so true.Tim Foot — And and we know that we can be ourselves the shiny object. We we want to it feels good to be the hero. It feels good to be the one that’s solving problems. Rich Birch — Sure.Tim Foot — It feels good to be the one that has all the answers. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — And I think that’s one of the biggest threats in healthy leadership today is feeling like you have to have all the answers. Because I think one of the most powerful statements from healthy leaders and healthy teams is, hey, we don’t know what to do next. Because it actually opens up the room for new thought. It opens up the room for collaboration. And it opens up the room for teamwork. Tim Foot — But it’s easier to move quick. It’s easier to move quick and be surrounded by people who agree and play it safe.Rich Birch — So true.Tim Foot — And then down the road, we realized that we weren’t growing in every sense of that word. And the mission was stalled out. We know we often have to slow down, re-strategize, look at who’s around the table, work out how we work together to move faster in the long term. We have to be vulnerable to make a team work. And sometimes it requires us to actually help others win than focus on heroes. Tim Foot — I mean, you think about a winning sports team. It’s not about just one person out there doing all the work. We’ve got to work together as a team. You know, it’s it’s it’s how do we work together and have had have less dependence on that shiny object, those standout leaders or those heroes?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I love that. I remember years ago, we had a coach come in and as a lead team, and this basically spent a week with us and then, you know, try to help us get better in our leading of our people. And I remember at the end of the week, the leader who we brought in said you answer way too many questions. And I was like what do you mean by that? They’re like, you need to ask more questions and you answer. You’re you’re putting yourself way too much in the middle of all of this and you’re not letting…And I was like, oh that’s a good insight. You know, we’re not raising up other people we’re trying to uh you know make it all about us rather than about our teams. Well, I’d love to talk about your book.Rich Birch — So the title is Reaching for Remarkable: The Seven key signatures behind every Remarkable Team. Let’s start with the word Remarkable. You literally have it twice in your title and subtitle. Why Remarkable? And how does that relate to hero? Because I was like, isn’t that the same thing? Like, isn’t it couldn’t this be reaching for the heroic? So unpack that.Tim Foot — I love that word remarkable. And it’s always been our mission at Slingshot. We build remarkable teams through staffing and coaching because your mission needs a remarkable team to move it forward. Tim Foot — Jesus left us with the most remarkable mission. And but it wasn’t enough. He needed a team to move it forward. And if Jesus needed a team to move it forward, we need to move it forward as a team.Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — And so we’ve all got these unique expressions of that remarkable mission. But if that mission matters, your team matters more. Rich Birch — That’s good.Tim Foot — And so when it comes to Remarkable, it’s about the mission. It all comes back to the mission. And we never fully arrive, Rich. We’re always reaching.Rich Birch — That’s good.Tim Foot — We’ve always got to be focusing on the right things, doing the deep work of of of reimagining, reinventing, and re-moving forward to reach for remarkable momentum when it comes to our mission. But we’ve got to focus on the team and the right the right areas to move that mission forward.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So you actually talk about these, there’s these seven key signatures. Can you take a little bit of time and just unpack those? We won’t be able to get into all of them, but kind of talk us through how does it hang together as kind of a big idea?Tim Foot — Well, give you a little bit of context behind why they’re key signatures. You mentioned it in the intro, in a former life, I was a working musician and I would do solo gigs. It was my tentmaking job to do ministry back in Australia. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — I would work three to five nights a week as a musician. And I always had way more fun working with other musicians in a team setting, because ah a band is essentially a team. And my best experiences, Rich, was when I was on stage with other musicians who were often better than me, but I was leading the band. We all lifted each other. And to achieve remarkable results, there was structure to it.Tim Foot — I mean, you know, there’s structure to music. There’s harmony and there’s rhythm and there’s key signatures. There’s tracks to run on that allow us to have a remarkable output. Rich Birch — That’s good.Tim Foot — And so as I move from that world into team strategy world, team specialist world, building teams world, I realized, hey, there are also tracks to run on as a team to reach for health and reach for remarkable, a remarkable output and remarkable momentum. And so that’s where we came up with these seven key focus areas that we call the seven key signatures behind every remarkable team.Tim Foot — And they’re a pathway, they work together. And I’ll run through them quickly. And then we can unpack what you what you want to unpack with the time that we have left, Rich.Tim Foot — But though, and they’re simple. I mean, these are patterns that I’ve observed over the last 16 years staffing teams, but the last 30 years growing in teams, learning from teams, leading teams. I mean, you and I both grew up in in church, Rich, and I learned a lot of of leadership lessons from being a volunteer on teams in in in my late teens and and early 20s, so much.Rich Birch — Yes, 100%.Tim Foot — But these patterns, this pattern or these key signatures start with number one, conviction. Conviction, which is a shared sense of why you exist and what you’re called to do. It’s the why behind the what. It’s the Simon Sinek. People buy why you do, not what you do. So that’s number one is conviction. Tim Foot — Number two is a message, a compelling and consistent way of communicating what matters most because, Rich, everything communicates. What’s the story our leadership is communicating? What we say, what we don’t say, our actions, our systems and processes. What story is it communicating? That’s number two. Tim Foot — Number three is culture, the values and behaviors that shape the soul of our team. How are people experiencing your ministry organization or your team?Tim Foot — Number four is roles, unique contributions for remarkable impact. Roles that clarify how we work together. Tim Foot — Number five is systems, which is scalable design for remarkable growth. Systems scale our mission. Tim Foot — Number six is friction because healthy friction moves the mission forward. How do we embrace healthy friction for growth? Tim Foot — And then the last one, number seven, and these all build on each other, is risk, which is bold moves that drive remarkable outcomes, initiatives that lead to breakthrough, strategic risk, not blind gamble. So those are the seven.Rich Birch — Love it. And you know friends, i I do think I would highly recommend that you pick up copies of this book. To me, when I when I saw this, to me, this feels like the kind of book that we should read together as a leadership team. Like, hey, let’s pull this together. You know maybe you’re looking for a fall thing to do with your leadership team. This would be a great book for you to pick up and go together. Rich Birch — There’s a couple I would love to tease out a little bit. I’d love you to pull out for us. Help us understand. You differentiate between conviction and message, two different things. I think lots of times we might collapse those into one. Why are they two separate? Help us understand the difference between those two.Tim Foot — Absolutely. Conviction, again, is why we do what we do. Without shared conviction, you won’t move the mission forward. There won’t be a reason behind initiatives. They’ll fall flat. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — There won’t be a reason behind the message you’re communicating. That’s why they’re different. So conviction is what keeps us in on the days we want to quit.Tim Foot — I mean, think about the early church in Acts 4. It’s a great, best example of conviction. Peter declaring in Acts 4:20, we cannot help but speak about what we’ve seen and heard. They didn’t just believe. They acted. It drove every decision.Tim Foot — If the disciples were just compliant, when Jesus ascended, they would have scattered. But because they were convicted, they ah nearly all of them gave their very lives for the mission. Conviction is our North Star. It’s It’s like calling. it’s It’s what keeps you the days, keeps you in it, the days you want to quit. And Rich, we know there’s going to be plenty of days you to quit. Tim Foot — Message, however, is is the story we’re communicating. It’s how we hire, fire, onboard, develop. It’s how we communicate our conviction and our overall mission. And in the book, we list a bunch of traps for each of these seven key signatures. And we can chat about some of the most common traps. But a common trap for for message is assumption. Rich Birch — It’s good.Tim Foot — We assume people understand and care like we understand and care. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — And we don’t ask enough questions. I mean, it’s why Jesus’ ministry was full of questions, Rich. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Tim Foot — Because he was he was cementing conviction. I mean, Jesus asked the best questions and rarely gave the answers. He lived the answers and he teased the answers out because that’s what led to conviction. That’s why they build upon each other. Tim Foot — You can’t have a story without conviction. You can’t have a message without conviction. And you can’t have a healthy message unless you are asking the right questions to make sure people are hearing and understanding it. Tim Foot — Did you like like did you understand what I just communicated? What did you just hear that I that I said?Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — Why why are why are you so convicted to by our mission?Rich Birch — Yeah.Tim Foot — Why are you committed to it? So many great questions.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.Tim Foot — The book is full of questions too. I’m a I’m a serial question asker. They used to call me “Quiz” when I was a teenager because I asked so many questions.Rich Birch — Yeah.Tim Foot — And it wasn’t until later that a mentor and co-founder of Slingshot, Stan Endicott—I think you know him, Rich—that he he convinced me that my proclivity for asking so many questions was actually a spiritual gift and not a special need.Rich Birch — Yeah. Tim Foot — Because questions, questions move conversations forward.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yep. Yeah, it’s true. It’s so good. And yeah, as I’ve shifted into full-time coaching, I have found, yeah, like that the the skill of asking a good question, it’s like, you know, I think the best moments I have with the people I’m working with are when we’re, I’m asking questions and they’re discovering, they’re tripping on to their own answers that maybe are a little different even than I would have. But just asking good questions, super important.Rich Birch — Okay. Another one that stood out to me of the, and again, friends, you’re going read all this. Obviously we can’t cover this in just, you know, half an hour conversation. But talk to me about friction, healthy friction. Tim Foot — Yeah. Rich Birch — So I literally have said as an executive pastor, my job was to remove friction from the organization. And so when you say, oh, you lots of us are trying to remove it. I was like, ouch, that’s me.Rich Birch — Because I think that’s, ah you know, I would I want to find places where we’re stuck and say, how do we get those unstuck and push this thing forward? So talk to me about why I’m wrong about friction.Tim Foot — I was there too, Rich. I was absolutely there. But when I get to number six, when we’re speaking on this or teaching on this, I will often say, hey number six is a wait, what? Tim Foot — I thought this was the sign of an unhealthy team. I used to think that. I used to think that the harmonious teams were the healthy ones, that when I walked into a context where there was all harmony with the team, that it was there was healthy, the absence of friction was healthy. But it’s not. It’s a sign of unhealth. Tim Foot — And I’m talking, there’s two kinds of friction, healthy and unhealthy. I’m talking about healthy friction. I mean, you think about a car and how the rubber meets the road, causes friction, moves the car forward. If you don’t have friction in your team, your mission isn’t going on anywhere.Tim Foot — It’s interesting, Zippia workplace survey found out that 76% of employees in the workplace avoid conflict, which is a real problem because healthy friction sharpens and aims teams, while avoiding conflict leads to complacency and stagnation.Tim Foot — Teams where members are passionately embracing friction will not only push through and forward to great results, they’ll attract and retain, which is really important, they’re going attract and retain top leaders. It’s where the mission truly comes alive and evolves to all it can be. Good leaders, rich, know to allow it. They know not to control it, but closely monitor it.Tim Foot — We get to decide if the tension or friction we allow is healthy or unhealthy. We call this the loaded gun of the seven key signatures, because when this gun goes off, it either breaks through a door or a wall that you needed to break through, or somebody gets hurt. And good leaders know how to monitor that and help it break through and not damage other leaders.Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s double click on that. Help me understand. So yeah, I’m going with you. I can see what you’re saying. You know, healthy friction, you know, unhealthy friction, good friction, bad friction. So give me an example. Rich Birch — You walk into it, you’re working with a ah church and there’s some telltale signs of, friction that’s that’s negative, that’s actually pulling the organization back, that’s that could be potentially hurting, or maybe has gone too far, or what’s, I’m not sure the best way to say that. Versus, hey, no, here’s some here’s some good friction that’s actually some good heat here that’s pushing the tires forward. Help us, what does that look like?Tim Foot — When when it becomes personal, Rich, that’s always the way you know it’s trending towards unhealthy. We’ll get to it in a minute, but we’ve got a team assessment on our website now around these seven key signatures, and we talk about unhealthy, inconsistent, functional, remarkable.Tim Foot — Most most teams live in that functional space. If you’re below unhealthy, it’s trending toxic, and that’s when you need ah that’s when you need the 4Sight group and Jenni Catron to come I mean, do some some deep, deep culture work. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — I’m all about our ecosystem. I know you are too, Rich. It’s like when you need the deeper work, then you need the specialist. Rich Birch — Sure, sure.Tim Foot — But right now you’ve got the general practitioner. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.Tim Foot — But but when it gets when it gets personal, you know that that’s unhealthy friction. Rich Birch — That’s good. Right.Tim Foot — And let’s go back to um the the harmony piece. Because that’s one of the traps when it comes to friction. it’s It’s the harmony trap. And it’s like it’s you wanting there to be you know violins and and and and birds singing and for everybody to be loving each other. That’s also a sign that there is unhealthy friction. Rich Birch — Right. Tim Foot — Because there’s things lurking that have been pushed down below the surface that are going to come out sideways that if you had just dealt with it straight away, it actually could have become momentum for your mission. It’s the unspoken influences trap. it’s the It’s the elephants in the room.Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — It’s what everybody’s thinking about, but nobody’s talking about. That’s going to that that’s gonna be insidious and it’s going to chip away at the health of your team. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Tim Foot — And it’s gonna become unhealthy friction. And so that’s a great question to ask. And that’s in the book too. What’s every thinking about, nobody’s talking about? Because that’s what we need to engage.Tim Foot — Now, if we think that’s going to lead to unhealthy friction, let’s have the the conversations outside of the meeting. So that when we get to the conversations inside of the meeting, we can engage this as healthy friction that will actually address the topic and will move us forward rather than becoming personal and eroding relationships.Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah, that question, what’s everybody thinking about that nobody’s talking about? That’s powerful. And I can see, yeah, that even even the organizations I’ve led, you can see where there’s seasons where we try to push away that friction. nd that can be just super negative. And it’s like this, we’re all just in la-la land. We’re all just, you know, can see that for sure. Tim Foot —Yeah.Rich Birch — So you wrote this book, you put this resource together. help me understand how you’re hoping it will help our, our churches. You know, I’m picture, I’m a church of a thousand people. Maybe I’m the executive pastor. I’ve got a team of 12 to 15 people on my team. And how how could, how could this be a helpful resource for us?Tim Foot — Well, this I believe this is the most important work we need to be doing, Rich, because if your mission matters, your team matters more. So often we get so focused on the people we’re serving that we forget the people we’re serving with.Tim Foot — And if we’re stalling out mission, mission-wise, then we’re not moving forward. And that’s not and we’re not being obedient to God’s call. And so what I’m hoping is, I mean, personally, our kingdom first principle at Slingshot is to leave teams better than than the way we found them. And the last thing we want to do is place great leaders on unhealthy teams.Tim Foot — So what we’re hoping is that teams are going to focus around these seven alignment areas and start to move mission forward, attract great leaders, retain great leaders. When we place, I mean, I you and I have both had healthy long-term ministries at churches, and it is a massive blessing when you, if God wills it, and you stay somewhere long term. I want other people to experience that. And that happens when the right leaders are placed on the right team.Tim Foot — So what I’m hoping churches do is they take our team awareness assessment on on our website, reachingforremarkable.com, which is attached to slingshotgroup.org. And they get a sense of, okay, where what where might we need attention in these seven key areas? Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.Tim Foot — Because it heat maps, it gives you percentages, you can take it as a team. And then to start the real important conversations.Tim Foot — I mean, I’ve been in rooms with this work, Rich, where you start to see teams have conversation around alignment and and teams that were that were stale or leaders that were burnt out start to get a glimmer of hope. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good.Tim Foot — That, oh, if we start to have these conversations around these areas, if we walk this pathway, if we focus in these areas where we’re struggling right now, we’re going to start to see results.Tim Foot — I mean, I even think about the key signature of systems. You know, it’s systems that scale remarkable growth. If we’re not building systems to to accommodate the growth that we keep praying for, God’s not going to bring the increase. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true. Tim Foot — Because God isn’t going to bring growth if it’s going to hurt us. We have to be building the right kind of systems to support our teams and leaders so that the growth can come. It’s a stewardship issue. Rich Birch — Yes, yep.Tim Foot — So what I’m hoping happens in churches all over the place is that they start to focus on these key signatures and see mission momentum results that moves them forward as an organization.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Why don’t you tell us, you’ve mentioned it, but tell us a little bit more about the team awareness assessment. Give us like a bit of a, you know, you’ve kind of given us an overview there. Give us a little bit more why we should take that test and give us that URL again that we can send people to.Tim Foot — It’s reachingforremarkable.com and it’s it’s literally 10 minutes or less. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — And it’s free as a leader. You can jump in and take it or you can sign up and and take it as a team. And it gives you obviously the team percentage on each of these key signatures. but also your own results. And when we’ve worked with real high-performing teams, it’s fascinating to watch these great leaders compare their individual percentage on each of these key signatures with their entire team and just to see alignment start to happen and the right conversations to happen.Tim Foot — Because we want to be able to focus in on where alignment is needed most. It may be real simple, Rich. Most teams live in that functional space. Rich Birch — Sure. Tim Foot — Functional’s fine.Rich Birch — Yeah.Tim Foot — But it’s not going to get remarkable results. Rich Birch — Yeah.Tim Foot — And our mission is too important. We have to focus on team alignment to move it forward.Rich Birch — Yeah. It’s so good. Yeah. I was talking to a a leader recently of a very large church and they were saying, you know, I just feel like, I feel like we got a go Pro. And what he was saying is exactly what you’re saying is like, Hey, we we’re we’re fine. We’re functioning.Tim Foot — Right. Right.Rich Birch — But man, we want to go remarkable. We want to go from just just because we can do this thing week in, week out in their case, have thousands of people show up, tens of thousands of people show up. But it’s like, that’s not enough. We got it. But the mission’s too important. We’re trying to reach people. How do we go remarkable? Which to me, I think picking up a copies of these books as a team would be a great first step. Rich Birch — Where do people, where can people pick this up? Where can they get your book if they’re looking for that? I’m assuming Amazon, but is there anywhere else we want to send them?Tim Foot — No, Amazon’s a place to go. Rich Birch — Yeah, that is the bookseller apparently.Tim Foot — I mean, it’s we know these days where wherever where everybody’s going, Amazon’s the way. And I would just add to Rich that as a leader, you want to know. This is information you want to have.Rich Birch — Yes.Tim Foot — We’ve talked so much about self-awareness. And if we’re in leadership, we need to show up to our team self-awareness. So many profiles. Rich Birch — Yep.Tim Foot — We don’t talk enough about team awareness. You need to know as a leader if you’re moving your mission forward or where you might be stalling out because it’s too important. And these seven things, as I said earlier, Rich, they’re not they’re not rocket science. Tim Foot — I mean, I like to I like to couch it this way: Conviction shapes the heart. Message shapes the voice. Culture shapes the atmosphere. Role shape contribution. Systems shape sustainability. Friction shapes growth. Risk shapes the future. And that’s why I hope you’ll dig into this with us. Rich Birch — Love it. Tim Foot — Because we want to see the kingdom move forward and we want to see churches full of healthy teams that not only great leaders want to come and be part of, great volunteers want to be a part of and help move this forward.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well, I think that’s a great place to end it. I was like, man, that’s, I’m like, I want to preach. Amen, brother. That’s fantastic. If people were, so we’ll send them to Amazon. We’ll put a link in the show notes for that. If people want to track with you or with Slingshot, where do we want to send them online to connect as well?Tim Foot — Slingshotgroup.org is our company website. And there’s a bunch of great stories there. There’s places that you can engage. We would love you to be in our ecosystem. And yeah, you can jump over there to reachingforremarkable.com. And we would love to come alongside you and help you continue to move forward in the unique ways that God has called you to.Rich Birch — Well, Tim, it’s great to see you. Tim Foot — You too.Rich Birch — We were just remarking before, we had dinner together there a couple months ago. That was fun, but it was fun to put the recording on today and connect a little bit. Appreciate you, brother. Thanks so much for being here today.Tim Foot — Thanks for having me, Rich.

Jason Y. Lee is the Founder and CEO of Jubilee Media, a digital media company with a mission to provoke real human conversation. Under his leadership, Jubilee has grown into one of the most recognizable digital-first media brands for Gen Z, reaching more than 380 million monthly views across platforms through flagship series including Middle Ground, Surrounded, Odd One Out, and Versus 1. Jubilee's format-driven content brings people with differing perspectives into direct dialogue on the issues shaping culture today. Jason also launched Nectar, Jubilee's sister channel and mobile app focused on love and dating, and executive produced the documentary Accepted, which premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival and was nominated for a News and Documentary Emmy Award in 2023. Prior to founding Jubilee, Jason was a consultant at Bain & Company and graduated with honors from the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School.

Introducing the All Def SquADD Cast show “Versus". It's a podcast with the OG SquADD! Each week, the SquADD will debate topics and vote at the end to see what wins. Versus airs every Monday and you can download and listen wherever podcasts are found.Special GuestPaige Bryan B.T. Kingsley This Week We DiscussMayonnaise With Every Meal vs Hot SauceReceive A Nude Picture vs VideoSuper Organized Partner W No Sense Of Humor vs Messy But HilariousS/o To Our SponorsKa'ChavaTake your daily ritual with you. Go to kachava.com and use code SQUADD for 15% off your first order. BlueChewwhen you buy two months of BlueChew Gold you get the thirdFREE with promo code SQUADD. That's promo code SQUADD. You will also receive an additional 10% OFF + Free overnight shipping on your first order. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information. We thankBlueChew for sponsoring the pod and the bedroom.

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Have you ever lost the joy in your creative work — that sense of fun you had when you were starting out, before the admin and the algorithms drained it away? How do mid-career creatives get it back, and what can a four-year-old teach us about play? Austin Kleon talks about productive procrastination, silly rituals, the case for paper reference books in an AI world, and how his newsletter went from a marketing cost to the day job that keeps the lights on. In the intro, Does social media still sell books? [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; Trial by algorithm [The Bookseller]; Publishing's AI Hypocrisy Problem [The New Publishing Standard]; ALLi AI survey for authors; Brave New Bookshelf Podcast, and Pics from signing at BookVault. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Austin Kleon is the New York Times and international bestselling author of nonfiction books, including Steal Like an Artist, Show Your Work!, and Keep Going, as well as an artist, professional speaker, and poet. His latest book is Don't Call It Art: 10 Ways to Create Like a Kid Again. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Why Austin wrote Don't Call It Art now, and what his kids taught him about creative joy Productive procrastination, silly rituals, and treating writing like Lego Comedy as a philosophical position, and giving yourself permission to be bad in private Sharing process in the algorithm era, and why your whole life is the process Bibliomancy, paper reference books, and what AI can't give you that a dictionary can Style, the Taco Bell distinctiveness rule, and how Austin's newsletter became his day job You can find Austin at AustinKleon.com. Transcript of the interview with Austin Kleon Jo: Austin Kleon is the New York Times and international bestselling author of nonfiction books, including Steal Like an Artist, Show Your Work!, and Keep Going, as well as an artist, professional speaker, and poet. His latest book is Don't Call It Art: 10 Ways to Create Like a Kid Again. So welcome back to the show, Austin. Austin: Thank you for having me back. It's nice to talk to you again. Jo: You were on the show in March 2020, and at the time, your book was Keep Going, which was prescient considering the pandemic and politics. So I wondered, why this book, Don't Call It Art, now? Was this something you see in the creative community or your own life that made you want to write this book? Austin: Keep Going is a book about what happens when the world goes crazy around you and you're still trying to do your creative work. This is a book about what happens when inside has bottomed out. Keep Going is a book about the world bottoming out, and you're worried that your own creative work is going to bottom out too. How do you keep pushing through and keep making stuff? This book, to me, is about what happens when you bottom out inside—when you've lost that love and feeling for the thing that you wanted to do, and you're just not connecting with it in the way that you used to or the way that you want to. How do you get back? How do you return to that sense of joy and wonder and fun that we have when we're starting out? And for me, it was being around my little kids that taught me how to tap into that. My kids were natural—they didn't have any creative hangups. I would spend all day talking to people who had creative hangups, and then I'd get back in the house, and I'd just be around these beings who didn't have any of them. It was really instructive. I felt like, if I could bottle the energy of my kids when they were about four years old and try to put it in a book, I think it could really help a lot of the people that I run into, and the people with the kinds of problems I hear from. Jo: You mentioned bottoming out. How do people know when they've hit that point? Austin: You just don't want to do it anymore. You're kind of like, “This just isn't giving me back what it used to.” When we start with our creative work, that's the thing that juices us. We come away from it feeling full up. I think you hit a certain point where you start to feel drained after it. Or maybe you don't feel drained by the thing itself that you're doing—maybe it's all the stuff around it, which is more often the case. For example, if you're a mid-career writer like me, who's been publishing books for 16 years now, I still really like writing. I still really like drawing. I still really like cutting and pasting and putting things together. It's the admin around the work—the emails, the meetings, the running-a-business part of it—that's super draining for me, and that stuff can start to bleed over into the creative work. So it's really important for me to make sure that I'm having some playtime, some R&D, some research and development time, to make sure it's not just all business. When you take the thing that you love and you turn it into the thing that you make a living from, you can really run into a lot of problems. Jo: I'm at 20 years, so I know exactly what you're saying, and a lot of listeners are the same. We love writing books, but it's all the stuff that goes around it. So for those of us who do this for money as well as passion, what are some practical ways to have more fun with our creativity? Austin: Something I learned from my kids is that you really are your most creative when you're supposed to be doing something else. So one of the things I use a lot in the studio is productive procrastination. Whatever I'm supposed to be working on, I start another little project, and that's my little naughty fun time. When I first come into the studio, I try to do something that I'm not supposed to be doing—something that I won't have much to show for. That could be making one of my blackout poems. That could be making a collage in my notebook. It could also be sitting here. I have a bass in the studio now, so I can practise my bass guitar. Sometimes I'll do that for the first 15 minutes just to get in that headspace of, “Hey, what's it like to do something just for yourself? Just because you want to do it?” The juice that you get from that little naughty “I'm going to do what I'm not supposed to be doing right now” thing, that carries into the rest of the day. It's like a nice start to things. Jo: Do you think that play could be something different to what we make our money with? For me, writing novels and stories is great fun in one way, but it's also what I then publish and make money on. So writing stories is more serious, I guess, than playing with Lego or something. Austin: Right. So the trick is, how can you make writing your stories like playing with Lego? That's kind of been my whole career. I hate staring at Microsoft Word and that blinking cursor, taunting you like, “Come on, what have you got?” A lot of my creative life has been about trying to make it more playful, trying to make it feel more like a game. That's how I came up with my blackout poems. I take an article from The New York Times and I black it out until it only has a few words left behind. It sort of looks like if the CIA did haiku, for some people listening. That was one little exercise. Then weirdly, that side thing that I thought was just play, just fun—that turned into my first book. So then it's, okay, what else can I mess around with and play with? I do a lot of collage work in the studio, and I rarely actually use that for any of the books. Sometimes I use it for my newsletter to illustrate the newsletter. But it's always about trying to figure out, how can I make writing a game? How can I make it more playful? There are different things that I do to make it feel more playful. One of them's really stupid. I really believe in silly rituals because I think silliness is really powerful. People talk about their daily rituals—Mason Currey has that great book, Daily Rituals: How Artists Work. When I was reading that book, I realised it was really the silly stuff that I really liked. There was, I think it was Balzac counting out coffee beans or something before he got to write. Or Steinbeck sharpening 12 pencils or something goofy like that. So one of the things I like to do before I write is that I have these cigarette pencils. They're pencils that look like cigarettes in the studio. I put one in my mouth before I start writing, and I pretend to be some old '40s writer on a typewriter. I like doing goofy stuff in the studio because I think when you do goofy stuff—stuff that you'd be embarrassed if anyone else saw it—it gets you in that playful state. Jo: It's interesting. In your book, you have a section that says, “Don't take things too seriously.” For many of us, we write memoir for example, and that is very close to us. It's like the deepest expression of what we want to say in the world. It feels very serious. So how can we hold things more lightly and not take things so seriously? Austin: For me, comedy is actually a philosophical position. What I mean by that is, I think a lot of people set out with a tragic model of creative work. They think, “Oh, I have this special gift,” or, “I have this thing that I really need to do, and I need to put it out into the world, and I need to make the world look more like I want it to look.” They have this idea that, “Through blood and sweat and tears, I'm going to see this thing through, and I'm going to push it into the world, and I'm going to have my way.” I think there's another way of working where it's more like, “I'm just a normal person trying to play with my environment, and take my experiences and put them into something interesting. So I'm going to play and use my wits, and we're going to see what we come up with.” Those really are two modes of life. The pandemic taught me that it was really when we were keeping our sense of humour, when we were having a laugh and keeping our egos in check around the house and just acknowledging how goofy we all were and how ridiculous the situation was, that seemed to be when we were really thriving. Versus, “Well, we're in this tough situation. We've got to make it into what we want it to be.” That felt really bad. But when we cruised along and we were just improvisational, when we went at things with a kind of lightness, that worked. There's a great Italo Calvino essay about lightness in Six Memos for the Next Millennium. Lightness is really underrated. Even when we're going about heavy work, having a sense of lightness and play with it just makes the work better. That's a philosophical position of mine. I aspire to comedy. I aspire to a comic outlook on life. I'm just a creature with a body who's going to die, and I'm fundamentally ridiculous. Life is pretty absurd. You just make the best of it. Jo: There's certainly some truth there. Staying on a similar theme, you have a chapter in the book on permission to be bad. Many of the listeners also have your book Show Your Work, and it shaped many of us into sharing our work in progress. It feels quite dangerous now, in a world where judgment is much louder than it maybe was when you wrote Show Your Work. So tell us a bit about permission to be bad versus should we keep some of this private? Austin: Permission to be bad is about the making part of things. It's the private part. It's permission to be bad when you're in private, when you're actually doing the work. Show Your Work is a book about what you do after you've done the work, or while you're doing the work. It was never about putting up a webcam and running a 24/7 feed. It was more like, hey, what are the ways that I can connect with the kind of audience I can build while I'm making the work itself? So the way I see permission to be bad is, you really have to give yourself permission when you're not sharing, when you're off screen, to really be as bad as you want to be. It doesn't necessarily mean quality-wise. I think it also means letting yourself write stuff that you would never say on social media. Letting yourself read stuff that you wouldn't admit you were reading on social media. Letting yourself listen to stuff. Letting yourself really be that unfiltered, unhinged, private person that you want to be. Then when it comes to sharing, you put some time in between that input time, that making time, and the sharing time, and then you share what you think is going to be useful or helpful or interesting to other people. Jo: I think you wrote that book before TikTok, and how fast people are moving. Do you think people need to slow down a bit in what they share, maybe? Austin: I don't know. I obviously had a lot more faith in social media back then. I use all the principles from Show Your Work in my newsletter. Newsletters are very much the new kind of great thing. They're doing a lot of the work that social media used to do, in that you're still able to have this direct connection with the people that you're trying to reach. The big problem with social media now is that it's all algorithmically tuned, where the people that are following you don't see the stuff that you're doing most of the time. What you have to do now, if you want the people who are following you to see your stuff on social media, is you have to make stuff that the algorithm likes. That's a whole different thing. As far as the Show Your Work principle—which is share your process as much as your product—that carries over to any platform. In my newsletter every Friday, I share a list of 10 things that were going on behind the scenes here. It might have been what I was watching on TV, what I listened to, a new pen I was trying out, or something like that. The Friday newsletter is almost always process stuff. When I talk about process, my definition is actually very broad. For a lot of people, it's drafting, editing, whatever. For me, the process is the whole life. The process is almost everything except the finished thing. A writer's life is 24/7. My friends who have real jobs really are like, “What do you do all day?” And I'm like, “Well, what do you mean?” They're like, “Well, I see you out on your bike ride.” I'm like, “Yes, when you see me out on a bike ride, I'm thinking through something half the time.” If I'm watching TV, I'm thinking, “Hey, would this be good in the newsletter?” I'm never off. My whole life—everything is copy, as Nora Ephron said. That's part of the job. It's very hard to turn off. So I see the whole life as process, and the question becomes, what little bits and pieces of that life and that process can you share with people while you're making the things that you hope to sell them later? Right now, I'm in a cycle where I'm selling this book, but all these people have showed up because I've shared my process every week for the past seven years since I put out a book. Jo: It's funny you say that. I was at the dentist yesterday, and— My dentist literally asked me, “So where do you get all your ideas?” This is a common question for all of us, right? And it just becomes so hard to explain that to people who don't walk around in the world just constantly getting ideas. Austin: I can't believe I'm going to tell this story. I was getting my vasectomy after my second kid, and I was talking to this doctor just before the operation. He said, “So what do you do for a living?” I said, “I'm a writer.” He said, “Oh, that must be cool. You get to use your brain.” And I said, “That's everything that you want your doctor to say.” I was going to say, “Please use your brain,” before he's about to cut into you. He said, “Oh, no, no. What I mean is, I know what I'm going to do every day for the next 10 years.” He knew exactly what his day was going to look like. He said, “You have to use your brain. You've got to figure out new stuff.” I was like, “Oh, that's really interesting.” That's the trade-off, right? He's got the job security. He knows what he's going to do. Every writer has a moment where they have to talk to a normal person about what you do. Jo: I was going to say, I'm married to one. Austin: Now, my wife, on the other hand, grew up the daughter of a writer, so she knows exactly what it's like. Nothing ever phases her. She's totally used to it. She's used to me staring off into space, completely checking out of a conversation. She's used to me using lines on her that I'm going to put in a piece later. She's used to the whole rigmarole. It's very handy. I've been very lucky in that sense. Jo: Coming back to the book, you talk about your use of bibliomancy for inspiration. Since we're talking about that, tell us about it. I think all the book people listening will be happy. Austin: I'm a person who still keeps a dictionary nearby—a paper dictionary. I keep a big old American Heritage. It's just a big, thick book. When I really don't have any ideas, I will turn at random to the dictionary, close my eyes, stick my finger down the page, open my eyes, and just see what I come up with. Sometimes just that act will give me an idea. I also do that with books. I'll go around the studio, pick up a book, flip to a random page, and just see what it says there, or read an old piece of marginalia that I've left in a book. I believe deeply in the power of bibliomancy, and I think it's a case for paper books. I'm one of those people that still really believes in reference books. I've started collecting more and more of them. I have an old, big dictionary that's always open on my desk, and I look up words. I learned from John McPhee, the writer, that you should look up words that you think you know. That was the first time I'd ever heard anyone say that. So I look up words that I think I know. Instead of reaching for a thesaurus when I need a different word, I actually just look up the definition of the word that I already have. That's another McPhee tip. The other thing that happened that I thought was really interesting is, I got a Roget's for the first time—a thesaurus. I don't think most people know what an actual thesaurus is. Most people think of a thesaurus as a synonym finder, and that's not actually what a thesaurus is at all. A thesaurus is more like an encyclopaedia, weirdly. You look up things based on big concepts, and then it gives you a bunch of words to look up later. It's a very strange thing. It's not what most people think it is. I have a couple of editions of Roget's in here. I like the really old Roget's from the 1900s because they actually have opposing ideas facing each other on the page. Do you have an old-school Roget's? Have you ever looked through one? Jo: I don't have one now, but I certainly grew up with them. I was literally just thinking, I wonder if there are ones for Americans and ones for British people, because so often we say different things and mean different things. I always hear Americans say, “Oh, that's a doozy,” or something, and it means the complete opposite thing here. Austin: Like if you say “fanny pack” over there. That means something very different than it means here, right? Chips or fries, that kind of stuff. So I wonder if there are different ones for different cultural references. Jo: I don't know. Austin: As people, with ChatGPT and all these LLMs and stuff, people are like, “Why would you ever pick up a paper reference book?” And I'm like, “I actually like the friction.” I like having to move in space and go over to my dictionary. I like flipping the pages. I like having to scan a page for the word I'm looking for, because— This marvellous thing happens when you're looking for the word, where you bump into all these other words. If you're a word nerd, you get to start thinking about the root of the word—oh, why is this word next to this word? Well, it's because they share the same root. Then you're going down all these fun rabbit holes. The thing that I'm trying to do as a writer and a creative person is, I'm trying to get to the thing that I didn't know I was looking for. The thing that people misunderstand about AI, I think personally, is that it's a great tool if you know what you're looking for. If you're like, “Find me this thing. I want exactly this. I want to see a picture of a dog wearing a king's costume,” or some crap like that, then it can spit that picture out for you. Or, “I want to know what happened on this day,” and whatever. It can do that. But that's not actually what I'm doing most of the time when I'm writing or making something. I start with an idea, but what really happens—the magic of writing and the magic of making stuff in general—is when you discover something that you didn't even know you were headed for. That's the real magic for me. Sometimes I have an idea and I want to articulate it for people, but more often than not, there's something that bothers me or something that I want to talk about, and I sit down and write, and I figure out what it is that I actually have to say and what I actually think. Every writer really knows this, and that's why the dictionary, stuff like that, those are ways of training you to get in that discovery mode. “Well, let me—oh, I bumped into this. I went looking for this one thing and then I ran into this other thing.” That's why I love the library. I don't know what system you use over there, but you look for one book in the Dewey Decimal System over here, and then, okay, here's all these other weird books next to it. Then you end up with three other books other than the one that you were looking for. That's the magic. To me, that's the magic of creative work, discovering what you didn't know you were looking for. That was particularly important for me when I was writing this book because we discovered that my wife has a condition called aphantasia. It's very rare in the population, about 2 to 3% of people. There's probably some people listening to this right now who are like, “What is this? Tell me.” Jo: Aphantasia actually more common in the creative industries. Austin: Yes. What it is, is that you don't see—when I say close your eyes and picture an apple, you don't actually see the apple in your head. You can think about an apple and the qualities of an apple, but you don't actually see it. Some people, and it's a matter of degree—some people like me, I can close my eyes, I can tell you what the apple looks like, I can tell you what colour it is, I can tell you where the shading is. Someone like my wife doesn't see the apple. She can tell you what an apple is. It's really interesting because she has a degree in architecture, which is known as a very visual field. But the thing you discover about aphantasia is, it doesn't keep people from becoming artists. In fact, it's the opposite. Someone like Ed Catmull, who co-founded Pixar, writes about it in his book, and so many of the great animators at Pixar are actually aphantasics. The reason is that they learned that they had to draw in order to see things. When you don't have a picture in your head of what you want something to look like, things appear in the drawing, and you find things that you couldn't even picture. A lot of writers actually are aphantasics. John Green discovered recently that he has aphantasia. It turns out that it's a superpower for writers, because if you don't have a picture in your head, then you don't have to translate that picture into words. A lot of writers talk about thinking in radio, like they have a constant narrator. My wife—she's probably going to kill me for talking about her this much—when she describes it to me, she's like, “Oh, it's like a radio in my head. I'm constantly hearing a voice, and it's a narrator.” I was like, “Holy shit, that would be really helpful to me.” I don't have anything like that in my head. I read Mrs Dalloway for the first time, and I gave it to her and I said, “You've got to read this book. I think this must be what it's like in your head.” And she said, “Oh my God, it is.” Part of the thing that I took away from that experience—this is a long-winded way of getting here—is that I take a lot of inspiration from people with this condition. Most of the people I know in the arts or the creative fields, they set out with this grand vision, and then they start working on the thing and it's nothing like what they had in their head, and they get really depressed: “This isn't what I had in mind.” Whereas if you set out without a picture in your head, and you just start manipulating things and you see what appears, that's more of the comic mode I was talking about earlier. What would happen if we just sat down with our materials and we started playing and we saw what appeared on the page? What if we started typing and saw what appeared, and then we played with that? That's the kind of joy. That's more like how kids operate. Kids are better at that. They're better at reacting to what's actually in front of them, instead of having these grandiose visions about what they're trying to achieve. Jo: Just coming back on the longevity of a creative career. Your books are very distinctive. You have a very distinctive visual style, your handwriting and the way the books are done. I wondered if another part of the ennui, perhaps, or the draining of the later career is that we get trapped into doing something that feels like it looks the same. Or we have a voice, and we're happy in that voice, but sometimes we want to do something completely different. For authors, we have different names. I write under two different names, and that helps. But equally— How do you define author voice, and do you ever feel like doing something completely different to your normal style? Austin: Style, in a lot of ways, is self-plagiarism. Style is the repeated things that we notice in people's work. Hitchcock talked about this in films. Wes Anderson is someone like that—Wes Anderson has a style. I'm sure that he gets really sick of it too sometimes, but you also can't help it in some ways. I thought a lot about this because people worry about style so much. A lot of the time, what we call style is what Adrian Tomine one time said: “Style is just the distance between what's in my head and what comes out of my hand.” I really like that definition. With this book, I was trying to think, “Okay, if I do another book in this series, how can I push things a little bit?” And then I was reading this article about Taco Bell. You guys have Taco Bell over there, don't you? Do you have Taco Bell? Jo: No. Austin: So Taco Bell, for people who don't know, is this American Mexican chain, and they have tacos and burritos and stuff like that. They're well known for making these really insane… it's so American, this company. They make a taco with a Doritos as a shell. Doritos are crisps, I guess. Jo: Yes, we have Doritos. Austin: Okay. I spent time in England, I just don't remember if I ate Doritos when I was in England. Anyway, I was reading this article about Taco Bell. It was really funny. They have an innovation kitchen at Taco Bell, and they have a rule about new products. The rule is called the distinctiveness rule, and the rule is: you can change the flavour or you can change the taste, or you can change the form, but you can't change both at the same time. I got really obsessed with this concept because I thought, “Well, this could be kind of interesting.” If you're someone who's had success and you're known for something, this presents an interesting thing. You could do a complete break and do something completely new, or you could try the distinctiveness rule. Okay, well, what if I play with this idea of taste versus form? What if I change the taste and keep the form? So the idea for Don't Call It Art was, what if I do another one of these books, but the taste is more like if my kids made it? It had the texture of kids' art, it had lots of scribbles in it, it was loose and messy. That was kind of the idea. The actual book ended up being more like the other books. It ended up looking like an Austin Kleon book, because I just can't help that. The thing you said about having multiple names that you write under, that's kind of what I do with the newsletter. I think of the newsletter as very different from the books. The newsletter is this twice-weekly thing where I can be a little bit more of myself. In the books, I'm this very helpful, happy version of myself. It's me, but it's me on my best day. I'm really helpful and interesting for you. The newsletter is still a highlight reel in a sense, but it's a little bit more of my weird everything-I'm-into. It's more of the unclipped version of me. The newsletter becomes a place where I can do a lot of the weird stuff that's much different from the books. I have these little projects going all the time. Sometimes I'll make a bunch of prints and put them online. Sometimes I'll make a bunch of zines on a topic I haven't covered in the book. Sometimes I'll do a mixtape. As someone who's interested in a lot of different forms and genres and just different modes of output, having something like a newsletter has been really creatively fruitful for me. It's kept me from getting too bottomed out with the books because the books do a certain thing for the reader, and as much as I'd love to do a book that was radically different, I also think I've been given a real gift with the form of my books, in that I kind of own the way that they feel and look. There aren't a lot of books that look like those books and feel like those books, and so I like playing with that form. It would be hard to get rid of it now. The pseudonym for me is kind of like the newsletter in a sense. The newsletter is a little bit more of where I get to be wild and wacky. Then the books are a little bit more of a chiselled thing. Jo: The books are perfect examples of the form, as you say, but it's interesting about the newsletter. You mentioned at the beginning that we can be drained by the admin around the work. For many people listening, a newsletter becomes admin. So how does the newsletter fit into your business? The books are traditionally published, they're very professional. How do you have your independent side, and how does all of that work together in your business? Austin: Thank you for asking that question. I run the whole show at the newsletter. The newsletter is just me, and then my wife edits it, and no one else is involved. I don't have an assistant. I don't have a team. It is just me, and that's why I love it. I control everything. I pick who gets in there. I pick everything. I love that. I grew up watching David Letterman over here, and Letterman had a nightly show, and I always thought that was killer. I thought, “Man, what a fun job. You have a show every night where you have a new guest, and you have all these wacky things going on.” It was like a variety show. I always thought that would be really fun, so the newsletter is my version of that. I started the newsletter in 2013, and it was just a Friday newsletter. It quickly became a list of 10 things I thought were worth sharing. I had a friend, Hugh MacLeod, who was like, “Hey, I have a newsletter. It's bigger than any conference you've ever gone to.” He was talking about South by Southwest here in Austin. He's like, “I have a newsletter now, and it's bigger than South by Southwest.” Jo: Oh, I remember him. Austin: He would say, “Every time I have a new print, I put it out, and there's a button, and then they buy it.” He was like, “You've got to get it. This newsletter thing is killer.” This was in 2011 or something. Jo: Yes, I still have his books. Blogging in Your Underwear or something. Austin: Totally. So Hugh's a whole different story, but I was just like, “Oh, I should really get a newsletter.” Letterman always had a top 10 list on his show. I just always thought a 10 list was really fun. And of course the books are lists of 10 too. So it just worked to have a weekly list of 10. It felt good, and it felt like an infinitely repeatable format. What I'm looking for as a creative person is an infinitely repeatable format that can go on and on and on and be new every time. So the list of 10 is something that people know the form of. It goes back to the Taco Bell thing. They know the form, but they're not sure what's going to go inside. They know it's going to be a burrito, but they don't know what's going to be in the burrito, and that's the exciting part. The newsletter, business-wise, was always a marketing cost for about the first eight years of its existence. I paid MailChimp to send it out. Then in about 2021, when I hadn't done a book for a while, my agent said, “You know, you should really think about doing a paid tier of your newsletter.” And this is to his credit, because he doesn't make anything off the newsletter. He said, “There's this thing called Substack now that makes that really easy.” So we moved to Substack in 2021 in October, and I started doing a Tuesday edition of the newsletter that was just for paid people. That grew enough that it's gone from a marketing cost to something that's almost—it's not quite as much as I make on my books, but it's close. And to be candid, my books sell pretty well. So suddenly the newsletter has become this really healthy income stream. The newsletter to me is actually the day job now. The newsletter is what really keeps the lights on. It's also the perfect mix. It's the day job, it's the thing that keeps income coming in on a regular basis, but it's also the thing I like to do the most. I'm not like a traditional writer who likes to just get lost in their book and take years and years and go away. I'm someone who loves to be doing a lot of different things. The newsletter is a perfect format for me. I'm talking myself into not quitting, actually. It's funny. It's gone from this thing that was a marketing cost to now it's a significant part of our income. That journey—such a bad word, journey—that trip has been very interesting. It's been really cool. But I'm also just lucky. I've been really lucky, and I think part of my thing is, I'm always just trying not to squander my luck. Jo: Well, the book is fantastic, and I know people are going to love it. And the newsletter, of course. So tell us— Where can people find you and your books and newsletter online? Austin: The easiest thing to do is to just go to AustinKleon.com, and that has links to everything—the books, the newsletter. I do actually keep an old-school blog still. I'm one of the few people that still maintains their blog and keeps it up to date. I'm hedging my bets because I think in the end everything will come back to a self-hosted website. I think in the end everyone's going to just go back to their little websites, or at least I hope so. Jo: Well, that was great, Austin. Thanks so much. Austin: Oh, thank you. The post Don't Call It Art: Rediscovering Creative Joy With Austin Kleon first appeared on The Creative Penn.

I'm excited to work with Microsoft once again as the presenting sponsors of the AI Engineer World's Fair! We'll streaming live from MS Build today for a special crossover pod with our friends at No Priors and the one and only Satya Nadella. However we did not hold back with this interview - we asked all the burning questions about uptime and Copilot that we know you have in your minds. Lets go!For almost two decades, GitHub has been the home of software, where both open source and closed flow, through commits, pull requests, reviews, actions, etc.This ecosystem flourished as open-source maintainers and contributors would continue shipping code for the benefit of the community. However as coding agents began to ship mass quantities of code - growing 1400% in 2026, it marked a new era that was both extremely exciting and challenging for GitHub.While these agents help more people ship more projects, they also significantly increase the floor of how much code is shipped, how often it is shipped, how many people commit code, and basically orders of magnitude multiples in every dimension of GitHub infrastructure:Now GitHub inevitably experiences more pressure on their infrastructure which was originally designed around human developers moving at human speed. This has resulted in a very publicly notable uptime story:So it begs the question of whether current systems around code can absorb what AI produces. Can CI/CD keep up when every idea becomes a build? Can open source maintainers survive floods of AI-generated slop contributions? Can GitHub preserve the human social contract of software while becoming the operating layer for agents?Which brings us to the perfect person to answer these questions: GitHub COO Kyle Daigle. In this episode, he joins swyx to unpack what happens when AI doesn't just autocomplete code, but starts changing how companies operate, how open source works, how pull requests get reviewed, and how GitHub itself has to scale. We go deep on GitHub's internal AI workflows: micro-skills, WorkIQ, MCP, Slack, Teams, email, Copilot workflows, the new Copilot desktop app, CLI, cloud agents, and how Kyle uses agents to look backwards across company context before deciding what to do next. Kyle also reflects on GitHub's history building webhooks, APIs, Actions, npm, Dependabot, and Semmle, why the AI era is breaking GitHub in new ways, how Actions became a general-purpose compute layer, and what Copilot becomes after code completion.Full Video PodWe discuss:* Kyle's expanded role across GitHub* How AI got Kyle coding again after years in leadership* Why GitHub rolls out AI through existing workflows instead of forcing new tools* WorkIQ, MCP, Slack, Teams, email, and GitHub as company context* Why massive “mega-skills” are giving way to small, atomic micro-skills* How AI changes summarization, communications, marketing, and analyst work* Why former developers in leadership may have a unique advantage in the AI era* Kyle's “15 agents on Saturday” workflow* How Kyle built an AI-generated executive presentation for CRO/CFO teams* Why AI changes the chief of staff role without removing the human work* GitHub Actions, webhooks, arbitrary code execution, and secure agent compute* The npm acquisition, supply-chain security, 2FA, and token invalidation* Slop forks, vendoring, and whether AI agents change dependency management* What pull requests become when most PRs come from agents* Prompt requests, vouching, AI review, and trust in open source* What counts as a “developer” when AI lowers the barrier to building* GitHub Spark, low-code, and why GitHub refuses to hide the code* 14x commit growth, Actions load, databases, monorepos, and availability* Copilot's evolution from completion to CLI, desktop app, cloud agents, and SDK* Context, memory, rules, and making GitHub “act like Kyle wants it to act”* Ambient AI, OpenClaw, enterprise security, and the new operating system for agents* What swyx should ask Satya Nadella about Microsoft's AI futureKyle Daigle* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyledaigle* X: https://x.com/kdaigleTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction00:03:36 Why AI Got Kyle Coding Again00:07:04 Running GitHub with AI: WorkIQ, MCP, Slack, Teams, and Skills00:15:39 The Golden Age for Former Developers in Leadership00:17:31 15 Agents on Saturday and AI-Generated Executive Work00:20:20 How AI Changes the Chief of Staff Role00:21:45 GitHub's History: Actions, npm, Webhooks, and Open Source00:28:45 Slop Forks, Vendoring, and AI Dependency Management00:33:57 Pull Requests, Prompt Requests, and Trust in Agent-Generated Code00:41:21 GitHub Stars, 200M+ Developers, and the New AI Builder Wave00:45:15 GitHub Spark, Low-Code, and Why GitHub Still Shows the Code00:47:38 GitHub's Hardest Era: 14x Growth, Reliability, and Scale00:59:21 Actions as the Compute Layer for CI/CD and Automation01:02:04 The State and Future of GitHub Copilot01:08:24 Ambient AI, Background Agents, and the Future of the SDLC01:13:09 OpenClaw, Enterprise Security, and the New OS for Agents01:18:03 Build Announcements, WorkIQ, FoundryIQ, and Microsoft Context01:21:41 What Should swyx Ask Satya?TranscriptIntroduction: Kyle Daigle's Expanded Role at GitHub and MicrosoftSwyx [00:00:00]: We're here with Kyle Daigle, COO of GitHub. Welcome.Kyle [00:00:07]: Hey, thanks for having me.Swyx [00:00:08]: You're not just CEO of GitHub. People know you as that. You have a new role.Kyle [00:00:11]: So I have an expanded role now. I've been working at GitHub for thirteen years and doing all things developer. Joined as a developer myself. And now, I'm also responsible as the CMO of Developer for Microsoft. And so all the kind of learnings and passion for developers and how we work with them and how we communicate and how we bring our products to market, we're also bringing that expertise to the broader Microsoft ecosystem and helping every developer that uses a Microsoft product or would like to have a sort of similar experience that they've had with GitHub over the years. So it's a different role in some ways, but it's also just building on the experience that I've had at GitHub of just sort of tell the truth, be authentic, show people how to use it and then let the products speak for themselves. Now just doing that with, all of Microsoft.Swyx [00:01:09]: We'll be releasing this in conjunction with Build. You got lots of stuff planned, and we can sort of touch on that whenever it's appropriate. I think one of the interesting things is I rarely meet a COO who's also a CMO. I think you're a very outward facing and you're very confident publicly. That's rare. Do you actually view yourself as COO? What's What is your thing?From GitHub Developer to COO/CMO: Building the Platform and Operating GitHubKyle [00:01:33]: I think for me, it's been funny. The titles have always been, a— have always felt a little strange to me. I joined GitHub as a developer? I wrote so much of theSwyx [00:01:46]: Let's bring that up. You wrote the back ends?Kyle [00:01:48]: I was going through, I was going through, some old photos, when folks were talking about how things were being built or how there was a build GitHub. I built, webhooks and worked with teams building the API, built the platform layer. Anything that integrated with GitHub, up until really twenty eighteen, I built or ran the engineering teams. And that's kind of where my the beginning of my passion always was helping people build things, deliver them to, their customers. And so being a developer, building for developers was always super unique. In a— I think as my role expanded, it became my ability to talk to not just developers, but also enterprise customers or business leaders and have this translation layer. And then through all those years, GitHub has always operated pretty uniquely. Post-pandemic, working remotely was not as novel as it was when GitHub started in two thousand and eight. But all that expertise of running remote teams, doing it well, became this sort of bigger role, ultimately turning into the COO role of how do we operate GitHub in the way that GitHub's always operated after the Microsoft acquisition. And kind of so on from there. So like for me, I think the— I've, I still code. I love coding but the problem has always been, people. It's a much harder problem to both support our own employees, a harder problem to communicate to developers and enterprise buyers what we're building why it matters, ‘cause those are two very different messages. And so getting to work in the mix of COO, CMO, also just being a dev, I think is what's kept me at GitHub for so long.AI Workflows for Leadership: Commits, Retrospectives, and ContextSwyx [00:03:40]: Apparently, you have— your commits have gone up. What's this? What's going on?Kyle [00:03:45]: Rui's called me out pretty aggressively. So I think— as you can imagine, right, you can see my normal era of being a dev In the twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen era, and then moving into management, and then ultimately the COO role. I think what you see there is me, really getting back to coding thanks to AI. I— similar to, attaching problems between how to market and how to operate a business and how to code, I find, building agents and workflows that are connecting very disparate problems to be what's driving this. So that's, some of it's writing software. A lot of it is, connecting a ton of a different data sources to, help me out. But that is completely me really diving in on the AI side in trying out our tools, trying out everyone's tools, But building for me, building for the non-technical leader, though I'm technical and how we're, able to use these tools more than just the simple, call and response that I think a lot of the non-technical, your employers, you have to get— you have to use AI, and so everyone uses, ChatGPT or Copilot or Claude or whatever. To really get into, how is this going to help me out, it— I find that it's not the I need to write a blog post, I need to those simple examples. Helping people find the workflows of, “Okay, I need you to go through all the PRs today. I need you to go through everything that we've posted online. I need you to go through what we did the last three months. Go through all of my Obsidian notes for any mentions of this then go through my transcripts at work.” We use, Teams, so, using WorkIQ, go call that MCP server, grab all the transcripts, go through all the Slack, and then build me out the plan of, what this week's messaging actually was. That's something that was, impossible because for me, I find AI in a what most of this launch here is actually, less building forward. It's actually, a recursive loop backwards. I'm always looking at what had happened first. Go back through the week and tell me what we did, what worked, what didn't work? And then tell me in the next three or four days-What would you tweak based on this sort of like looking backwards and then looking ahead a little bit? I find that to be so much more valuable, especially for like non-technical, because that retrospection is actually LLMs are very good at that. Like finding all the patterns, pulling them out, and then applying that retrospection to just a couple of days or just like a short period of time. Is all a bunch of apps that I've built and launched a bunch of, internal tools. I use the new, GitHub Copilot app, the desktop app with workflows. Every time I crack open my laptop, it's running workflows for me. It's just a ton of different stuff and of course, it all ends up on, it all ends up on GitHub.Swyx [00:06:47]: Of course. That's where, that's where, stuff is hosted. Man, there's so much to ask you. I was going to leave the how do you run a company with AI thing at the end. I have to ask one— double click one thing. You said, you are looking back at the week. You're, you're understanding what happens. When you say we That's three thousand people. How?Rolling Out AI Internally: Skills, CLIs, and Company ContextKyle [00:07:09]: I think when we started rolling out AI internally beyond engineering, right? One of the things that I was really, passionate about is like we have to do this in a way where no one has to change how they work. I don't want to have to teach you a tool. I don't want to have to teach you something new. And so for us, we tried out a few tools. Most of them don't work because I got to get you on board? I got to teach you how to use it. What we've actually ended up doing is we've built like a set of skills internally. We have we each have our set of skills, and we've just been distributing even to the non-technical folks, the CLI. And then effectively, we're just giving it access to like read about everything that we're writing. So that's for us, that's usually GitHub, Teams, Email, and Slack. So Teams for, video chat, generally speaking.Swyx [00:08:03]: Teams and Slack?Kyle [00:08:04]: so we use Teams for video communication, but we don't use it for chat. W-we— GitHub for a long history, right? We're alwaysSwyx [00:08:13]: Also SlackKyle [00:08:14]: Talking about ChatOps and like everything is built into Slack. Like every command, every flow.Swyx [00:08:18]: So even though you have been acquired for I don't know, eight years nowKyle [00:08:22]: we stillSwyx [00:08:23]: You still use Slack?Kyle [00:08:23]: it's a purpose-built tool for us, and I think the reality is that moving off of it would be so bluntly expensive? Simply because all the tooling is, baked in with that paradigm. And they both have their pros and cons but they don't work the same way at all. We still use a bunch of different tools Because it's the purpose-built tools that We need. And thenSwyx [00:08:47]: Well, the same doesn't go for the rest of Microsoft, presumably.Kyle [00:08:50]: like the like various teams like operateSwyx [00:08:53]: They make their own decisionsKyle [00:08:54]: Various ways. I think it just matters what you're trying to what you're trying to do. But we do we do work across kind of every tool that we use, and then by giving everyone access to all of that context and the new WorkIQ MCP server, which is quite cool if you do live in the M365 like world. I can ask it all these backwards-facing questions, and it's incredibly important for our teams that are working remotely. There's a lot of stuff you miss when you're not in an office, and we are spread out all over the world. So most of that is looking back. And then we post, we post either auto-automatically into GitHub issues or discussions, these sorts of like findings or like our industry reports. Like what's happening this morning, today, yesterday. A little automation gets run. We'll use the app. We might use GitHub Actions like with, our agentic workflows just to go do that run, and then we push it into GitHub, and w-we keep having a conversation. So usually for us, it's about that sort of like looking back, looking forward on the non-technical side. And then of course for a lot of those folks, it's also building an app, pushing it to GitHub pages or pushing it somewhere to host it et cetera. But it's just like enabling everyone with that power of it's going to take me a week to figure this out. Instead, we're going “Okay I built a skill. Let's put it into a repo. We'll all share that skill together, and then we'll use the CLI or now the app-” “just to run it.”Micro Skills vs. Mega Skills: How GitHub Uses AI at WorkSwyx [00:10:26]: All right. I think, I think we're going straight into like the team management and productivity thing. I think a lot of people are getting various levels of LLM psychosis. How do you manage the bloat of skills? Like everyone Has their thing, and they're Like trying to promote it to the rest of their peers in their org, right? And obviously, whoever becomes a skill influencer internally becomes like an AI leader, right? Of sorts. I assume you have those.Kyle [00:10:50]: like I think we haveSwyx [00:10:52]: And I assume it's a mess a Yeah.Kyle [00:10:54]: there's like I— like I think the reality is there's two pieces. Like first is I think that we're ending the era of these like massive, beautiful, perfect skills that are just like not any of those things. ‘cause for a while, right every tweet every day is like go download the skills, the perfectly managed thing to do this entire workflow. And I think that like what we've found and what— I was just with my team, this week, and we were talking about the skill side, and we're really talking about these like incredibly micro skills that are just doing one thing for us very well Versus a skill that's going to do I said, that full report. That doesn't really exist on our side anymore. It's usually how do— like a single skill that's going to identify the most important marketing information given any MCP server. Like this is the most important thing. Less about stitch a bunch of tools together and have it produce this mega output because then weeks go by, months go by, things change, and you want to tweakSwyx [00:11:58]: It's brittleKyle [00:11:58]: Your mega skill and you're screwed? You can't do that. And so now we're really just talking about the Legos we're using and just letting the instruction book be something we're all putting together. Whereas I think a lot of AI skills for a while have been that mega instruction book style.Swyx [00:12:15]: I've, thought a lot about Postel's law. I don't know if that's a term that is, means things to folks. It's the idea that you should be liberal in what you accept and strict in what you output, right? And I think that's like a good framing principle for skills. This is my skills, obviously on GitHub. I feel like everyone should have like how like some repos In GitHub are special repos? I feel like we should sort of reify the slash skills and everyone like give it some kind of special presentation. Anyway, so, yeah, this is one of those like download Download anything, transcribe anything, and then you can string together the atomic skills that do one thing well Into like some kind of orchestration skill that calls other skills. I assume, does that match?Kyle [00:12:56]: I like I think so. I think that theSwyx [00:13:00]: Summarize anything.Kyle [00:13:01]: Like I think the- For me, summarizing something for I do communications and PR and analyst relations and marketing and customer activities, and so my summarize everything is very different for each one of those like Contexts. What ‘Cause if I'm summarizing something for an analyst, that's a very different thing than, probably how I'm going to summarize something for like a customer meeting or an engagement. So that's I think like the difference when we're talking about the like the tools I might use on Saturday or the skills I might use on a Saturday when it's just for Kyle. Yeah, those are kind of like they have an atomic actual tool underneath or maybe skill, and then Kyle cares about X. But I think when we're talking about work and enabling the the marketers, communicators there, it's the atomic, this is what good summarization is, and then this is what I care about as for marketing for communications For whatever. And that I think is like the interesting matrix problem when we go from like a developer set of concerns to all kinds of different professions, is that what that word means to me is different than it means to you is different than it means to the analyst or the salesperson, and that's where I think the matrix mess is that we're starting to like still starting to find. It's about these mega skills but they're all just slight permutations, but those permutations are really important. It's the difference between someone reading this and going “Did AI make this?” what Or “This makes total sense, and I would expect this when I'm giving a briefing to Gartner,” or like whatever else.Swyx [00:14:37]: I think the beauty of it maybe is that you don't have to be that careful about what goes in there. It doesn't have to exactly fit as long as it like roughly is contained in there. I used to complain about plugin hell, basically. Like when you have a framework and then you have a hundred things that you need to integrate, everyone does like the GitHub used to be bloated full of these things. And now we don't need them anymore ‘cause now you just use skills.Former Developers in Leadership: AI as a Creation MultiplierKyle [00:15:00]: And like I think the most magical thing is the just that like I can just also crack it open. Like Like yes, I could go like change the how the plugin is coded, or like I could go do that now with AI, but I think there's just something more magical about getting a response back and being “That's not right,” and then you just crack the skill open, you just type English words and it's different. That building block is just, I think very unique. Once I get everyone to kind of understand how to best how to best make those changes to get the most power out of them.Swyx [00:15:36]: Is there a— you have a your peer group that Of people like you. Is there a common framing for Something I'm feeling is, which is true, is that is this a golden age for former developers who are now in leadership? Because you can wield the tools, you would know the right words, you're maybe not too close to the details. Doesn't matter. But like you're more effective than someone who doesn't come from that background.Kyle [00:15:59]: I think that like the secret has always been your ability to identify patterns and solve problems, and I think that for folks that like myself that don't code day to day anymore, that has made me successful as a developer, made me successful as a COO and now CMO. And so now that I have access to get and write code, I'm now applying that sort of like pattern finding and problem solving, and I know enough still about how to then go and say, “Oh, I want to make an app, but I don't want to break into jail or create something that's not going to be able to work or to be deployed scale or whatever.” that ability to apply all that additional business knowledge and still code I think is what makes that so interesting to me. Slightly different than I think some of the other like technical leaders that became business leaders and now are going back to their apps and updating them. Good for them? But I think the more, much more interesting thing is, well, now I have this whole new set of expertise over ten plus years. Why not take that and use that as a developer with these AI tools? So I definitely think that makes me more powerful, but I think that's true for like every dev as well. Most of the dev friends I still have also have some other underlying skill and passion. There's really talented, very kind of linear computer science software devs, absolutely. I just find that the folks that came from a different career, went to school for something else, went off and did this random thing, and then became a software dev, or were a dev, did a random thing, came back. Learning that extra set of information, learning those extra skills, and now having the power of an AI where I can crank up fifteen agents on Saturday while my kids are doing lacrosse, That's like really powerful. And I think it gets me back to that feeling of like creation, and it's very hard to replicate that in most other senses? That first time you build an app and you click it and you show someone that's magical. And so being able to do that not just in code, but across all kinds of different assets that's, that's huge. We were doing we're doing our every year we do our revenue planning. We talk about okay, what is it going to look like for next year? And of course as you imagine, there's, slideshows everywhere talking about what are we going to talk about, what's the narrative, et cetera. And so as you said I'm “Okay, well, I could probably just like build something to build this and then that way I don't have to go build the whole spreadsheet or I have to pass it to my team.” So we went through this process, and I got all the information and used the skills I mentioned. I built like a little app just to make it so I could look at some of the information in a SQLite database, more easily. And I ultimately built this entire presentation without touching any of it and I was “Okay, I'm just going to present this to our CRO, the CFO, their teams,” without mentioning I'd built it with AI. I like built a skill to make it look very much not AI driven. Just not pretty.AI-Generated Presentations, Human Taste, and the Changing Chief of Staff RoleSwyx [00:19:03]: Like a design. Yeah.Kyle [00:19:03]: Not pretty. But just like very clearly not AI. Kind of like don't do anything interesting.Swyx [00:19:08]: That's, yeah, that is valuable.Kyle [00:19:08]: Just go Exactly. We did the whole thing through. It used my notes from Obsidian, it used all the context I mentioned before, the plans, and Never came up once that it was AI generated.Swyx [00:19:20]: It didn't matter.Kyle [00:19:20]: Never once. D It didn't matter. And so now I takeSwyx [00:19:23]: This is a toolKyle [00:19:23]: I can take that tool and go, “Look, I don't want you to go build slideshows.” They're just helping us share information with each other. If this thing can do it With a little bit of crafting from you and then we can look at it together, awesome. There's no value in all that extra work. I think that the ability to, make it look humanly bad and and build a little app to, manipulate the data I think is part of, that upside for devs that are now in leadership roles. Because, the thing that I feel like I said before, this that's all a people, that's all a people problem. I know if you've used a coworker or not to build a slide deck, unless you spent a bunch of time to not do it.Swyx [00:20:07]: I know, but like it was so, I think there's a certain charm to just being blatantly AI. ‘Cause I think that you're well, you're just honest about There may be mistakes here that I cannot vouch for. So how much value is there? But anyway I think, actually the real question I want to ask is, there's a— You were a chief of staff To Thomas. And in the pre-AI world, the that job would've been a chief of staff job of like Can you prep me these slides and all that? And now you do it yourself.Kyle [00:20:35]: I still, I still have a chief of staff. Because, the difference is it's sort of the discussion every time we have some sort of technology evolution is it's not that the jobs the roles don't all go away, they just change? And so yeah, I don't have someone spending all their time building out slides for me and presentations ‘cause I don't need that anymore. But now I need that person that is able to go and find all the different connections between humans in those discussions to help me find out, okay, I should be meeting with this group and this team, and they have an opportunity, and I'm going to be in San Francisco today, I'm going to be in Seattle tomorrow. Those sorts of human connection aspects are still incredibly valuable and has always been a big part of that chief of staff role. But now just like chiefs of staff are not opening up, letters to process, they're doing emails. What It's the same thing. And now they're, they're not building out as many of these presentations because they have the the ability to have a AI take it on for, and share that with me and great. Let's keep moving ‘cause it's allowing us to go faster and make better decisions more quickly.Swyx [00:21:45]: Awesome. Well, so we can dive into more sort of, Productivity insights as you go. I did want to do a little bit of a brief history of colleague and hub. Because, we started here. And then you also involved the NPM acquisition. I did, I do want to touch upon that. And then more recently, I just want to bring up to present day where we're having uptime issues Which transparently we've already Addressed publicly, but we'll, we'll discuss in the pod. Did I miss anything? Like what, any other major highlights? Obviously, it's, it's a lot of years to cover.A Brief History of GitHub: Webhooks, Actions, Acquisitions, and Platform EvolutionKyle [00:22:15]: No the I think one of one highlight was right before the acquisition closed in twenty eighteen, I got to launch the first version of ActionsSwyx [00:22:27]: OhKyle [00:22:27]: At GitHub Universe. So it was OSwyx [00:22:29]: They're that young?Kyle [00:22:30]: It was October of twenty eighteen, I think. Yeah. Yeah.Swyx [00:22:33]: Gee, Jesus.Kyle [00:22:34]: I got to I was the engineering leader on that project and got to launch that. And then, yeah, we did acquisitions of NPM you said, Semmle, Dependabot Pul Panda a whole bunch of things. That was a bigSwyx [00:22:47]: Pul Panda.Kyle [00:22:48]: Abi is doing well.Swyx [00:22:51]: DX. Holy crap.Kyle [00:22:52]: Did well on DX. I and like that was a that was the big shift, after the acquisition. I had to join the sort of business side.Swyx [00:23:00]: So I need to hit you on some of these things ‘cause you were there. Right? And how often do I get to talk to someone who was there? But yeah, Actions. Is that the number one source of security issues on GitHub?Kyle [00:23:11]: Oh, sh I think that the number one source of, security issues is probably like all, the literal code in everyone's like underlying repositories. I would say back further than that is, if you remember I had to show in this graph was this is, I'm, didn't say this before, this is ultimately webhooks.Swyx [00:23:30]: You yeah.Kyle [00:23:31]: Like circa whatever it was.Swyx [00:23:32]: It says Hookshot in there.Kyle [00:23:32]: I forget. Yeah. Yeah, Hookshot's in there. And so like back then, it says GitHub Services. Do you see, it says Hookshot FE for front end, and then it says GitHub Services. GitHub Services back in the old days, right? You we had a repository that was Ruby code, and you could write any Ruby code in there, and then we would execute that On your behalf As a service, and then that way if an if you were trying to integrate with something, it didn't we would run it for you.Swyx [00:23:57]: And of course no containers ‘causeKyle [00:23:58]: No, ‘cause it wasSwyx [00:23:59]: Well, no containersKyle [00:24:00]: Twenty fourteen. And so there was some isolation obviously, but it was mostly the separations on the server level. That's like an example as long as the very old version of Pages, which ran on its own containerization infrastructure, not on Actions.Swyx [00:24:15]: Which like all-time great product.Kyle [00:24:16]: Pages powers the internet at this point to some degree. Those were places where like clearly there were no like issues like to my knowledge. But it was those things where I'm looking at and going “Okay, well we can't be running arbitrary Ruby code,” like on everyone's behalf. Then containerizing all of that up intoUh into actions now where yeah the containerization, is r-really good. The pinning most folks aren't pinning it the like to a particularSwyx [00:24:48]: ImagesKyle [00:24:48]: Sha, et cetera like their workflows, and so that's a big that's a big place Of pain for folks if they're just doing similar to any dependency management, just V1 or newest or latest, I think. But, that journey from that day to “Okay, we're just going to run all this arbitrary code, and, it'll basically be okay,” to now, no, we have, really good containerization. We have a new, underlying, ag-agent, containerization, service. It's like we're using it under the hood. It's through Azure. They recently announced it. The Azure, Dev Compute, but it's, very fast, very fast compute to be able to, spin up your own cloud agents, or whatnot. We're using it under the hood for some parts of the new,Swyx [00:25:36]: Microsoft Dev Box?Kyle [00:25:37]: No. Dev Compute, yeah.Swyx [00:25:41]: Hmm. Not finding it just yet.Kyle [00:25:44]: Oh, it's, it's in there somewhere.Swyx [00:25:46]: All right. Well, we'll cut that out.Kyle [00:25:47]: Sorry. But with, Dev Compute, you can, run, really fast, spin up really, small VMs really quickly, so you're doing a tool callSwyx [00:25:58]: Same conceptKyle [00:25:58]: Just do it containerize exact-exactly. So we're using that so definitely moving that direction to protect us from every every piece of code that we're ultimately running.Swyx [00:26:07]: look, that grows into the full SDLC? Code hosting was just the start and and then it's grown beyond that. Let's talk about NPM may-maybe ‘cause I think that's also, a very major point in the industry. I do think, it was looking for a home. It was, kind of struggling as a business, right? I don't know, I don't know how you would characterize that whole acquisition and how itNPM, Package Security, and Keeping the Internet RunningKyle [00:26:33]: like when we were talking to the team, I think the big thing for the both of us was to find a way to keep NPM, which was basically powering the internet then and way more so now to some degree running. Keep it going keep continuing to scale. It was having scaling problems, if I recall, back at that time. They were doing some rewrites. ItSwyx [00:27:00]: that's cute compared to now.Kyle [00:27:01]: Well, that's the thing is like when I'm talking to folks now, there's there's so many more underlying uses of NPM than there were back when we had them join in with GitHub. But that was ultimately the goal. It was really okay, we used to have pages. We have, the world's code. Let's make sure that we can keep NPM running well for the world. And we put a bunch of time and investment into fixing some of the underlying backend, changes, some of which we talked about some of the manifest work, et cetera. And then now, really trying to bring the the security posture of NPM up to speed. But, it is a unique challenge in that every move that we make to make it more secure will break a lot of people. And security is paramount. And also, we take it very seriously. We're, the any time that we have a problem with GitHub or we make a change that makes us more secure but hurts, there's, a snow day for developers or a really bad fire that they have to go put out. And so we've, have changed the 2FA policies. We've changed the way the tokens work. When we find tokens that have been exposed or potentially, exposed, we invalidate them, andSwyx [00:28:22]: I love that feature in GitHub. Yeah, it's greatKyle [00:28:23]: That creates issues, but, the but that's the thing is we're trying to push the community, forward without necessarily, doing something that is going to break the contract that's been for 15 years or close to it or some amount of years on NPM.Slop Forks, Vendoring, and the Future of Open Source Supply ChainsSwyx [00:28:43]: I think the— So now we're talking about, open source and publishing. And I think there's something here with what people are calling slop forks, which, I think Malta from Vercel is doing. And, part of me thinks, well, the way to get past any vulnerabilities, we just, let's just get rid of the concept of NPM. And we only publish source code. And anytime you want to import it you have your coding agent look at it and then adapt whatever subset you're going to use into your vendor it. But, the AI vendor it. Is that realistic? I don't know. Is it— Will that solve all our security issues? I don't know.Kyle [00:29:24]: I don't think it'll solve I so Mitchell was just talking Mitchell Hashimoto Was just talking about this today, and I think that I-in some ways, it's all all things, old or new again? Yeah, absolutely vendoring everything. Like I do I do remember twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen.Swyx [00:29:42]: This is Yeah. Let's, we must return toKyle [00:29:43]: That's what is We were vendoring everything. We were having actual discussions around, or at least I remember we were “Should we take this full thing?” “Why is this so big? We only need this one file.” And so I do think there's something true there where having either taking only what you need or the dependencies just getting incredibly small over time, I think will help to some degree, but it's not going to solve the fundamental problem, I don't think, because the vulnerabilities in an agent looking at them, there's time and time again, there's a million different ways in which we can convince an agent that this thing is, secure or not and pull it in. Or we can do static code analysis or runtime testing to say whether the code works or not. That is, I think, the step that needs to continue to be, invested in. The question is just on, how much scope. Should it be this enormous project that I'm pulling down, or should it be this piece? Either most companies are running some amount of security checking on the on the packages that they're bringing in or vendoring. That I think won't change. That's like what advanced security does to some degree, Socket does some degree. Like everyone is doing a piece of that. How we each do that like especially when we're talking to enterprise customers, is just like very different. No there's no one wants one single way to do it. And I think that's always been GitHub's, unique position in the world. I talk a lot to maintainers, I talk a lot to folks about this. It's we're— we rarely start like a process and a practice and like push it onto the community. We usually wait for the sort of like RFC process socially or literally, everyone agreeing, and then we'll cement something in. Because otherwise we'reMaintainers, RFCs, Vouching, and the Social Layer of TrustSwyx [00:31:35]: That fits your role in the ecosystem, yeahKyle [00:31:36]: We're GitHub. Yeah, we don't want to shape the whole thing. We want it to be figured out. But like how do you balance that like sort of Role in the industry to keep everything as secure as is possible and make sure that you're you're not going to be compromised as a human, ‘cause that's usually how it all happens. And Not not create a process or lock us into a flow that you're not going to or like Mitchell's not going to or other open source projects aren't going to like. That's always been a tricky balance for us, and I think that's something that we haven't talked about enough is we're not going to be able to fix everything for everyone in a way that everyone is going to like. So tell, help us, tell us what is working. When Mitchell was talking about, the Upvote, the upSwyx [00:32:22]: I was going to bring up his thing. Yeah.Kyle [00:32:23]: I forget what it Yeah. When he's talking to us, I was chatting with him and talking to him about this and I put it on Twitter and we talked to, also over DM, was “We're going to keep working.” but I think the important thing is I do actually want to hear what isn't working for you. And as, be as specific and clear for your project as is possible. And to every piece of credit over the many years that we've known each other through the industry, he's always done that and I appreciate that ‘cause there are places that we need to fix up, and we hear from him, and we'll fix up just like we do all other kinds of maintainers. But that that process between making those types of improvements and being more secure and like creating, I forget what he calls it's not the proof process, not the claims process. Do what I'm talking about? He has that he his projects have a way for you to kind of like,Swyx [00:33:13]: VouchKyle [00:33:13]: Vouch. Thank you. Yeah. He has like the vouch system for saying, “Hey, you should accept my PRs.” That's beenSwyx [00:33:20]: I just built this into GitHub. I don't know.Kyle [00:33:22]: Well, see, but that's the thing is that you say that and like he and his community really likes this and then I'll go talk to other maintainers and other maintainers, globally, and they're “No, this doesn't work for me.” And that is the tension, but also the kind of beauty of GitHub, depending on which way you look at it is we want to help maintainers, so we create all these tools to let you have more control over how much you take in from AI and PRs. But you can also use this. What You can go use this project, and if it takes off and becomes the kind of mostly standard, then yeah, we probably wouldn't enforce it but we would add it in because that's the flow that we tend to do?Swyx [00:34:02]: I hear a lot of people don't know the history of the pull request. And like like that's how, that's something that GitHub standardized basically.Kyle [00:34:08]: Yeah. It was a very messy process Like beforehand, and now the we have the benefit of it being the process? And now we have to go and Figure out the next best process or what adaptations change, or what does a pull request look like when eighty percent of your PRs are just coming from your agents and not From other devs?Swyx [00:34:31]: Do you like the prompt request idea from Peter?Kyle [00:34:34]: like I think that for each like each idea I think has its merits. I'm not, I'm not avoiding saying anything good or bad, but I feel like I've seen a version of we have that we have entire Thomas' store. Take all the assets of what you've built and put that in. I think that's got great ideas. There's all these various permutations of the PR flow, but I think the reason why there's not a single answer is ultimately we're trying to codify trust. We're trying to say “Okay, if Sean reviews this I'm going to trust it because you're Sean or you're the senior dev or you're the whatever.” And right now, when we are working in a flow where an agent writes code and another agent reviews code and then Kyle goes and looks at it the trust is kind of diffuse. And most of the tools that we're talking about are talking more about verification flows. We have more assets to look at, so I can probably say whether this is a good PR or not. But that still doesn't solve, I think, the human problem of I'm looking at a PR and I want to know if I can trust it. And we're still, we still tend to use human signals for that? Mitchell approving it or Kyle approving it or whatever. And so I think that's, I think that's why most of these options haven't really solved it is because, it's a social problem ultimately. It's a it's a human problem to review it and agree. Or you fully trust the tool and you're imbuing that tool with full trust Which I think in some cases that absolutely exists.AI-Generated PRs, Trust, and the Waymo AnalogySwyx [00:36:08]: And so like in the same way that there will be a tipping point in society when we don't allow humans to drive anymore Because machines are measurably better than Than humans. I'm looking for that tipping point, right? Like Mythos is ridiculously expensive. Someday we'll have Mythos on a desktop. I don't know. Will, does that change the equation?Kyle [00:36:30]: I think it's more I took a Waymo here, and I was on my phone and not looking around at all. There are other, self-driving, vehicles that I would not trust while, staring at the road. And I think that trust is something that isSwyx [00:36:48]: Is this a Zoox thing? What is itKyle [00:36:50]: I think that is both. I think that is both. LikeSwyx [00:36:53]: There's Zoox in this robo taxi. That's it. It'sKyle [00:36:56]: Well, depending on what level Of self-driving. But, my point is sort of that I think part of that is I strongly believe that's, a mixture of verifiable proof. Like how many accidents, how much data, and so on, and the human aspect of how I feel when I'm in this car, what it tells me, et cetera. And so that's why I think some of the like Some of these some of our AI tools tend to, imbue me with more of that feeling of trust, even if the data says this is 100% accurate. I feel like it takes more time for us to go, “Should I trust this or not?” And that's in the soft sense of, startups with high agency, weekend projects, and open source. And then there's enterprises and regulated industries and everything else, and that is an even harder problem to go solve because even when it is fully verified, not only do you have to have trust from the humans on the team, you probably have to have trust from multinational,Swyx [00:37:55]: Oh my GodKyle [00:37:55]: Multi governments around the world and regulating agencies. And so that's where I feel like until we tip over to your point on the sort of like human EQ side of it. I feel okay this feels okay I've been proven enough. Then the ball will start to roll a lot faster, where we'll end up getting to the “Okay, we can trust this,” and feel good about it in the Most difficult of cases.Reputation, Sponsors, Stars, and Bot Activity on GitHubSwyx [00:38:18]: If human trust is the thing that matters, I feel like GitHub as the developer social network could maybe do more there. Like vouchers are one system But, we have star counts, and then we have Contributor rights, and that's it. And I feel like there should be more in that space. I don't know if there's any other design decisions there.Kyle [00:38:37]: I think that one of the places that we don't really expose right now in this sort of way is, some degree of like hard trust and support, which would like for me is like sponsors is a good example of that.Swyx [00:38:49]: Ah.Kyle [00:38:49]: It like costs you something. To prove that I believe in your project and I trust you To some degree or I want to support you at the very least.Swyx [00:38:56]: Solve payments for open source. Why not?Kyle [00:38:58]: I think that I think that like as we keep moving forward, right, there's more and more projects where I'm, adding more and more dollars into sponsors personally because I want to like support them, but I also like know of I've probably never met them in person, but, I know of enough of their work that I want to support them. I think the thing that I don't love about stars or commit counts or anything else is ultimately, even with all of the various, abuse and de-spamming and deduplication work that we do or anti-abuse work that we do, these are all, not active social signals. They're passive ones that are ultimately gamifiable. And you may trust me, but another open source maintainer may not. And on what heuristic should you be, trusting me? That I think, is kind of where some of our thinking is right now. What signal from me is most important to you? You— If you can define that potentially, honestly in an agentic workflow that's what we see some of these open source projects do, where you have GitHub actions, and then you have like an agentic workflow that's calling AI, and you're setting these rules. Like if Kyle has submitted and gotten accepted PRs across any given project and has a social handle tied to his account in GitHub, and that social account's older than a certain amount. Really complex measures that matter to you ‘cause most open source projects have that heuristic built into their heads, if not written down in the contributing guidelines. You could take that and then go apply that and then just say, “Oh, we're not going to accept this PR.” Building something that is, I think, malleable to everyone's needs, is a little bit better, rather than going “Hmm, this account's too young.” Because what happens? The attackers just go and go and create a multitude of accounts, and they wait Until it ages up. Needs to have a certain amount of stars. That's how star inflation happens. Need to have a certain amount of reposSwyx [00:40:46]: Oh my God. YeahKyle [00:40:47]: With PRs. They all just create repos and submit PRs to each other, and then they come in and do something nefarious. And so, it's hard. It's hard to find the measure. So I think we're, we're looking more at how can we provide you tools so you can kind of choose what's best for you. And of course, we'll give you some standards. But the trust vector, gets down to I don't know, some version of like human digital ID like everyone's been talking about. Like how do I prove that it's meSwyx [00:41:13]: Give me your eyeballsKyle [00:41:14]: On the internet. Give me your eyeballs. Exactly.Swyx [00:41:18]: The I got to keep moving on Topics, but obviously I can go all day on this stuff because, I've been involved in GitHub and open source My entire professional career. Stars. Very superficial. Everyone knows it. But I think time to one hundred thousand stars is the fastest I've ever seen. Like people just reached that in I don't know, months. And then like at the same time I don't trust it right? Like how many of these are real or bot or like whatever. I don't know how to ask this but like what can we do about it? LikeKyle [00:41:49]: JustSwyx [00:41:49]: Is stars broken? Is stars fine?Kyle [00:41:51]: I think that there's kind of two, there's like two pieces. Obviously we're constantly like trying to find ways in which like your users are producing spam, which would, I would include like be like only doing star gamification. When we find them, we pluck ‘em out and we,Swyx [00:42:08]: But it's like a Whac-A-MoleKyle [00:42:10]: It's a hundred percent like a Whac-A-MoleSwyx [00:42:11]: There's no wayKyle [00:42:11]: Now, powered by AI to be helpful. But I think more so what I'm seeing is, a lot of the like fastest time to X tends to be because we're now inviting so many more people into like software development on GitHub That like the zeitgeist is just swarming? And it'sSwyx [00:42:32]: It's not just developers anymoreKyle [00:42:33]: And it's not you and I. Like like however you want to say like what a developer is it's not just folks who have been coding for a very long time. It's folks that have maybe started coding or only joined in since the AI era. And nowSwyx [00:42:44]: what's the latest Octoverse number? I know eighty million was my lastRem- member that a number of developers on GitHubKyle [00:42:50]: Oh, we're over 200 million now.Swyx [00:42:53]: Okay. Well, so you see?Kyle [00:42:55]: Like over 200 million developers now.Swyx [00:42:56]: But it's not developers, right? It's, it's people with a GitHub account.What Counts as a Developer in the AI Era?Kyle [00:43:00]: So, so this is, this is the biggest debate that I would say, everyone loves to have at GitHub at this point. From my perspective, right, I think that there's, there's clearly a difference between, professional enterprise developer and then developers. But I think that I think that the idea that we should be I don't know, splitting hairs or segmenting developers in the early era of software development is, not worth our not worth the time. SoSwyx [00:43:29]: When you get into gatekeepingKyle [00:43:31]: 100%Swyx [00:43:31]: What is a developer?Kyle [00:43:31]: 100%. ‘Cause I wasn't a developer when I started writing code? I was going toSwyx [00:43:36]: Oh, no. I made— I cloned a thing, seven years before I learned to code. And then I and then I wrote about my learning to code journey, and people Just called me a fraud ‘cause I had a GitHub account. And I'm “Well, no, I just use GitHub, but I don't know-” “I didn't know what I was doing.”Kyle [00:43:49]: I I remember that. I remember those sets of posts, and like that's, that's b******t. So I fight very clearly on the line of, if you create code, if you have an idea and you create it into some way of, I'm, I'm going to run it and use the app right now, you may still use AI in that moment, but that's okay. At some point you're going to do the next thing. You're going to create a big— You're going to have to learn about this database. You're going to fix a bug, whatever. We're all on some same journey, and those people are also hearing about the great new agent skill package or a new CLI tool or a new whatever. And those projects are going up because you want to be a part of this moment, just like I wanted to be a part of the Ruby community when Ruby was popping off when I started becoming a developer, and now I can just click the star button. And so I think that yes, there's clearly some amount of like spamming and game gamification that we're working against, but I really think we're just seeing this whole new cohort of folks that are moving from technology to technology because they're not working on a 20-year-old software application. They're working on a side app that they built on the weekend for their friends or for their new idea or whatever. And that's how you see these enormous charts going up and to the right with With stars.Swyx [00:44:59]: I think something that's remarkable is the persistence or, that GitHub extends to those folks. Usually when I see platforms go into a new audience, they usually have to, have like a second platform with a different name that wraps the main platform. But somehow GitHub has been able to sort of persist and extend, and it's friendly and whatever? So it's, it's nice.Spark, Low-Code, and Always Showing the CodeKyle [00:45:19]: I that's partially why I think as we've tried to move into I don't know, more like low-code-y things. We so we started working on Spark as like a way to, build an app and run it. I think that the reality is that we anytime we try to, kind of put even a veneer on top of it without when we put a veneer on top of something, we still always show you the code. That's kind of like a tenant. We're never going to, hide the code from you ever, because whatSwyx [00:45:52]: Why would you?Kyle [00:45:52]: That's, yeah, that's the whole point? However, I think that what we learned with things like Spark is that really the value of Spark for most devs is, easy runtime. And you may have a runtime or a host that you're going to use for that or you just build something and run it but, the package of making that even more simple isn't really needed for folks that are trying to build software and not just trying to build, an app, which is, slightly different, a slightly different goal. So I want to get you in, I want to get you comfortable. I think the best thing for me as, someone that did not traditionally come into software dev way back, I want anyone to be able to breach that chasm and not be in the I don't know, I feel like we're, we're still in an era of, STEM. I've got a 12-year-old and an eight-year-old, and it's “We got to get ‘em into STEM,”? Over and over. And I like I do, I do the things that good parents do. I was “Oh, you want to do coding?” “Yes, I want to do coding.” Do coding classes. But now they're just not afraid of doing software. And that's, I think, the thing that's honestly kept me at GitHub for so long. Anyone should be able to go and build a thing, just like I can go change a light switch in my house. I'm not going to go into the breaker box ‘cause I'll probably kill myself? But, I can go change that light switch. Everyone should be able to go and say, “This fricking app doesn't do what I want. I want it to work like this.” And that I think, is what's kind of kept us all connected with GitHub through the years and some and during the easiest of times or in the hard times because of that opportunity of, we're the home for all developers, and we want everyone to be able to have that feeling that we've had of, had an idea, I created it and holy s**t here it is.Swyx [00:47:37]: Here it is. All right, I'm going to try to do more spicy questions.GitHub's Hardest Scaling Moment: Growth, Agents, and UptimeKyle [00:47:42]: Great.Swyx [00:47:42]: Is it an easy time now or a hard time?Kyle [00:47:45]: Oh at GitHub? It's a hard time. Like, it's a hard time and also, I was just with my team and I said, “This is also, the best and most exciting time that I think I can remember at GitHub.” BecauseSwyx [00:47:57]: Best of times, worst of times. It's never oneKyle [00:47:59]: ‘cause we've we were talking about Octoverse reports and, usually we do an Octoverse report once a year, and we look at the numbers, and we say, “Oh my goodness.” I was at Universe in October saying, “This was the fastest year of growth that we've ever had,” right? And now we're doing more in a month than we did in a year last year.Swyx [00:48:20]: You're talking about PRs.Kyle [00:48:21]: Commits.Swyx [00:48:21]: Commits, yeah.Kyle [00:48:22]: PRs. Kind of like you name it by roughly every measure that we're looking at, there's some amount of sort of growth that is much bigger, and that is breaking our system in new ways, not old ways. Like webhooks were always notoriously, unreliable over the years?Swyx [00:48:38]: Whose fault is that?Kyle [00:48:39]: not anymore mine, but for a period of time, I'm sure you could pull up a tweet that was “It was me. I'm sorry.” but, now, that got rewritten at a scale level that is still working and is not having problems today. Now what we're finding isn't just the isn't the-The simple stuff that folks are on the sometimes on Twitter or on the internet are “Hey, why is this like this?” Sure. There's absolutely silly problems that we shouldn't exist. But now we're talking about, unique, novel permission problems that happen only at a scale across all different objects or whatever, that now we have to go rewrite this underlying system. And so it's, there are problems that yeah, caught us off guard, which I think I said. Like the growth is astronomical, but also we're making such material progress in that I'm excited once we're once we've kind of like reimagined the underlying foundation layer, or pieces of it at least, what's going to be possible when it's not just all of us and all the new people that are being developers and all of their agents and all the tools like working together. Because that'll still happen in that in that GitHub tool, that GitHub community. But it's a it's a hard day anytime we can't give you what you're looking for. We have the same problem internally. We operate through github. Com. Of course, we have backups when things go down and whatnot for our own operations but we feel it too. If it's not working it's not working for us, and that's kind of like the promise of dogfooding for GitHub. It's always been true. We're using the same tool you're using. We're not using a super secret version. We and so we also need it to be great for us for our customers of course for open source. And now an exponential growth of agents, Doing it too.Swyx [00:50:32]: I wanted to load for audio listeners who maybe haven't seen your tweets, whatever. So one billion commits in twenty-five. Now it's two hundred and seventy-five million per week on pace for fourteen billion this year, if growth remains linear. Is that still the pace? I don't know. It's been aKyle [00:50:48]: it's, it's speedingSwyx [00:50:50]: Roughly.Kyle [00:50:50]: It's still speeding up.Swyx [00:50:51]: It's, it's April, so yeah.Kyle [00:50:51]: Exactly. This was in April.Swyx [00:50:53]: All right. So basically you have fourteen x growth, right? Year on year on year. And I think that's a scaling issue. I think, I'm going to like try to really steel man this thing. People have experienced fourteen x growth. They haven't had your downtime. And that's like— C-can we go dig into that? Why? Like what's the— what broke? What are we doing to fix it? Like just anything for the community to reassure them.Why GitHub Reliability Is Breaking in New WaysKyle [00:51:18]: so there's a Like I was saying, there's a couple different places that we've seen the growth issues. Some of the growth issues, which is why we're t— I was talking about pushing hard on more CPUs is in actions in particular. More tools, more agents, more PRs mean more builds, more builds mean more CPUs. And so we are expanding through not just our data center, but obviously we were talking about moving to Azure and moving to, adding an additional cloud compute because we simply need more CPUs. Not as much GPUs. We definitely need GPUs too, but now CPUs are becoming a factor.Swyx [00:51:53]: It's very CPU heavy.Kyle [00:51:54]: Underneath the hood when it comes to some of the underlying services, we've been breaking up over the years our database infrastructure, so that way we have, more cognitive separation between our the various services. The place that we continue to have pain is in, permissioning. And so right now m-many of our permissioning layers sit into a database that we like internally call MySQL One, and old Hubbers will know what I'm talking about. And so we've been pulling things out of MySQL One for many years, because like and we use we use Vitess and we use other technologies to shard and we do it as one bigSwyx [00:52:31]: Famous thing, PlanetScale was born from this andKyle [00:52:32]: A hundred percent. Sam Old Hubber and friend. And so finding these opportunities to like break this out and then do that globally. The other thing that I think is interesting and both a unique opportunity and tricky is we also run everything I just talked about in a black box container with GitHub Enterprise Server for people that work on-prem. So we take everything I just said, and we also do it on-prem, and we also do all of that and we do it in a data residence setup for customers that need to have their data in a single location. Each of these has the unique characteristic around how we're sort of storing that data in MySQL or in a permissioning setup. That's where some of these outages have oc-occurred, where you're seeing it more like across the board rather than just like the one pieceSwyx [00:53:17]: Filling the databaseKyle [00:53:17]: Isn't quite working. Exactly. And so part of it is that. I think there's been some other places where agents are much more or more projects appear to be moving towards monorepo versus we were going the other direction for many years in the industry. Repos were smaller, but there were more of them, and now we're seeing the opposite. Repos are bigger, and there's, not fewer of them per se ‘cause there's new growth, but, we're just seeing many more big repos. Big repos, big monorepos have always had, a unique performance problem. Because each one, is slightly different if, particularly if the underlying blobs are incredibly big Inside the repos. And so we've done a ton of work that you pro— like most people haven't probably experienced, unless you're in this case of the monorepo. But that Git, infrastructure layer improvement does help the overall, system because, many of the improvements that make monorepos work better make all repo infrastructure work better. And so, I could kind of keep going down the line where it's another thing where we're moving out of, We're changing how we do j I'll just say job queuing for lack of a better, explanation changing the underlying technologies there.Swyx [00:54:32]: I spent two years being a job queuing guy, so.Kyle [00:54:34]: And so it's kind of a little bit of a little bit of piece by piece, and it's mostly because as we were— as it was built, we built everything in a way that assumed, I guess in some ways that the size of the pipe of work was going to remain the same. There's just going to be more people coming through each of those pipes. But instead now in places whereA git push was, generally a certain size for example, is now, no longer true.Swyx [00:55:03]: Oh, yeah.Kyle [00:55:03]: OrSwyx [00:55:05]: I push a thousandKyle [00:55:06]: On the average. 100%Swyx [00:55:06]: A thousand line commits like dailyKyle [00:55:07]: Same thing with PRs. Like PRs same thing. And like we've talked about optimizing that and making changes where, and there were technology choices that did not work there? And it got slow, and it didn't It was not fast. It did not do what the users wanted. And so we've been reeling that all out and going “Okay, that's just not right. Let's stop putting good money after bad and do it the do it the right way or the right way now.” So there's It's a it's a lot of things, not quite when I've experienced scale at GitHub historically, it's almost always two options that we've used. We go vertical scaling, particularly with databases, right? And we go horizontal scaling. Oh, we just have more people using this service. Great. We're going to add more servers, and we rack them in our data center, or we use it in a cloud. And now we're sort of in a like diagonal, where like vertical doesn't really work anymore. Horizontal isn't work either because we're all We all have some CPU or GPU constraints in the world now, and now we have to go in and like crack open services that have been running for 10 or 15 years and go, “Okay, the rules of this service have legitimately changed, and now we have to rewrite them.” None of this is an excuse. This is like we're We have to do the work. We have to make it better.Swyx [00:56:22]: actually as an infra guy, I'm “This is like one of the most fascinating scaling challenges I've ever seen.”Kyle [00:56:26]: That's that's, that's the thing that's the thing that it's hard for Like when we weren't talking about it publicly, and I was like I came out, and I was “Hey, I just want to explain what's going on.” Part of it comes from a very old GitHub ethos, which is it's our it's our uptime. It's down. W What I know you're a developer, so you're, you're inclined to want to understand more what's going on. But at the same time us going “Hey, this service didn't, perform the way we expected, and now we have to go change it,” we weren't We're not trying to hide anything from you i

En este episodio a cargo de Alexnation y Gatonejo tenemos como tópico VERSUS de Personajes Icónicos. Además, como de costumbre discutimos las noticias más relevantes, mencionamos los juegos a publicarse, y compartimos con ustedes lo que hemos estado haciendo, jugando, viendo, y/o leyendo. 

Introducing the All Def SquADD Cast show “Versus". It's a podcast with the OG SquADD! Each week, the SquADD will debate topics and vote at the end to see what wins. Versus airs every Monday and you can download and listen wherever podcasts are found.Special GuestDonny ComedianJohn GrimesThis Week We DiscussBlack Tacos vs Mexican TacosTaco Bell vs Dell TacoCool Ranch vs Nacho CheeseS/o To Our SponorsHIMSHIMS.com/squaddReady to reach your goals? Visit hims.com/SQUADD to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you.Better HelpYou don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy.Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com/SQUADDBlue ChewRight now, when you buy two months of BlueChew Gold, you get the third for FREE with promo code SQUADD. That's promo code SQUADD. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information, and we thank BlueChew for sponsoring the podcast.Cash AppNew Cash App customers can earn $10 if they use code CASHAPP10 in their profile at signup and send $5 to afriend within 14 days. Terms apply.

The new AIEWF website is live! CFPs close in 2 days and we will run our first New Engineer Orientation this weekend, get your tickets booked ASAP as they -will- sell out. Take the AI Engineering Survey and get >$2k in credits and free AIE WF tickets!One of the central tensions in the agents industry is that even while there are major decacorn agent labs like Sierra, Decagon, Notion and Cursor being built up, it is also true that it has never been easier to DIY agents, with a plethora of agent frameworks like LangGraph and Pydantic and Flue, and managed agents from Anthropic and Gemini and Amazon. There has been a wave of companies building their own background agents from Shopify to Stripe to Paradigm to Razorpay, and even Cognition's friends Ramp have built their own coding agent with other friend Modal.You'd think Cognition might feel a bit threatened, but they're not - even after all this, they were way oversubscribed for the $1B Series D they just announced:Walden Yan, coiner of context engineering and Chief Product Officer/Cofounder of Cognition, invited OpenInspect's Cole Murray to talk about why the Devin is in the Details.Full conversation live on the pod today: In retrospect, async agents were the most AGI pilled bet you could make in 2024 - the models weren't good enough yet to vibecode, and people didn't trust AI enough to let it rip, nobody (including early Cognition) was sure about the form factors. Now it is obvious:* The first wave of AI coding tools made the developer faster but remain heavily in the loop. Copilor and Cursor's tab autocomplete are prime examples However, the workflow was still heavily centered around and bottlenecked by the developer's local workflow: a developer in an IDE, watching the model, accepting or rejecting changes, and pushing code one interaction at a time.* The second wave was local agents: Claude Code, Windsurf, Cursor's agents pane: first one and increasingly many terminals all running concurrently.* The current Age of Async Agents points to a different future focused more on agent orchestration which drives end-to-end development.According to previous guest Steve Yegge, there are finer-grained 8 levels to agent adoption, but we have collapsed it into three.As Cursor's Michael Truell put it in The third era of AI software development:Cursor is no longer primarily about writing code. It is about helping developers build the factory that creates their software. This factory is made up of fleets of agents that they interact with as teammates: providing initial direction, equipping them with the tools to work independently, and reviewing their work.The agent should not sit solely inside the developer's flow. It should be setup to work in the background so that you can give it a task, a repo, a machine, a shell, a browser, tests, memory, and review loops to go do the work somewhere else.In less than a year, the sentiment has shifted from avoiding multi-agent systems:to suggesting approaches that actually work:From coining “context engineering” to building the infrastructure behind Devin's 7x PR growth and jump from 16% to 80% of commits across Cognition repos, Walden Yan has had a front-row seat to the background-agent shift. In this episode, Cognition co-founder and CPO Walden Yan joins swyx alongside Cole Murray, creator of OpenInspect, to unpack why everyone is building their own Devin, what changed after the December 2025 model inflection, and why “spec to pull request” is now becoming a real production workflow.We go deep on the architecture of background agents: harness-in-the-box vs out-of-the-box, why Devin separates the “brain” from the machine, why repo setup is still one of the hardest problems, why Docker is not always enough, and how full VMs, snapshots, scoped secrets, GitHub bots, Slack integrations, and video-based testing all fit together. Walden and Cole also dig into memory, MCP limitations, multi-agent orchestration, AI code review, SRE auto-triage, PMs shipping code from Slack, Windsurf 2.0, hybrid frontier/sub-frontier systems, and the real failure mode of uncontrolled vibe coding: your codebase regressing to your worst engineer.And as agents eat software… and software eats the world… you can draw the conclusion on what is next:We discuss:* Why the engineering world is waking up to background agents and cloud agents* The December 2025 model inflection that made spec-to-PR workflows practical* Devin's 7x merged PR growth and rise from 16% to 80% of commits* Why Cole built OpenInspect as an open-source background-agent system* The economics of $20/seat agent products and why monetization is tricky* What Cognition actually sells beyond Devin: infra, onboarding, integrations, and adoption* Harness in the box vs out of the box, and why architecture matters* Why Devin separates the brain from the machine for security and permissions* Repo setup, scoped secrets, Docker Compose, and agent-ready dev environments* Why full VMs matter when agents need to run real applications and test them* Android, macOS, Windows, nested virtualization, and machine-specific agent work* Why testing is much harder than “computer use”* Screenshots, video verification, and the “I know it works” merge moment* GitHub UX, Devin Review, AI reviewers, and agents responding to PR comments* Why MCP alone is not enough for first-class Slack and enterprise integrations* Memory, Knowledge, skills, Claude.md, and why retrieval is still unsolved* Devin's auto-generated memories and the challenge of memory pruning* Always-on agents as permanent PMs for issues, tickets, and product areas* Sub-agents, meta-Devin management, and what multi-agent systems actually add* Why pure auto-merge vibe coding breaks down after about two weeks* AI code smells, lint rules, reward hacking, and Semgrep for agent-written code* GitAI, inline context, and preserving the “why” behind code changes* Local testing, mock servers, older codebases, and preparing companies for agents* Windsurf 2.0 and the handoff between local foreground agents and cloud background agents* SRE auto-triage, support workflows, and agents as first responders* PMs, marketing, and non-engineers creating pull requests from Slack* AI agent budgets, $1k-$5k per engineer spend, and hybrid frontier/sub-frontier systems* The rise of autonomous coding factories and who Cognition is hiringWalden Yan* X: https://x.com/walden_yan* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/waldenyan/Cole Murray* X: https://x.com/_colemurray* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colemurray/* OpenInspect / Background Agents: https://github.com/ColeMurray/background-agentsTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction00:00:43 Why Everyone Is Building Their Own Devin00:01:57 Devin's 2025 Ramp: 7x PR Growth and 80% of Commits00:03:49 OpenInspect and the Rise of Open-Source Background Agents00:07:59 What Cognition Actually Sells Beyond Devin00:09:56 Background Agent Architecture: Harness In vs Out of the Box00:12:08 Separating the Brain from the Machine00:14:07 Repo Setup, Secrets, Docker, and Full VMs00:19:13 Why Testing Is Harder Than Computer Use00:22:40 Video Verification and the “I Know It Works” Merge Moment00:23:19 GitHub UX, Devin Review, and AI Code Review00:25:42 MCP, Slack, and Enterprise Agent Integrations00:28:59 Memory, Knowledge, and Always-On Agents00:36:16 Sub-Agents, Multi-Agent Orchestration, and Meta-Devin00:43:55 Vibe Coding, Auto-Merge, and Codebase Decay00:48:38 Agent Infra, VPCs, Cloud Providers, and Fast VM Restore00:52:25 AI Code Smells, Reward Hacking, and Code Review Systems00:56:10 Making Codebases Agent-Ready00:58:30 Windsurf 2.0 and the Local-to-Cloud Agent Handoff01:01:15 SRE Auto-Triage, PMs Shipping Code, and Agent Use Cases01:04:32 Agent Budgets, Hybrid Models, and Autonomous Coding Factories01:06:51 Hiring at Cognition and OpenInspect Consulting01:07:45 OutroTranscriptIntroduction: Walden Yan, Cole Murray, and Context EngineeringSwyx [00:00:00]: All right, we're in the studio with Walden Yan, co-founder of Cognition, CPO.Walden [00:00:08]: Happy to be here.Swyx [00:00:09]: Which is a cool title. And coiner of context engineering.Walden [00:00:15]: Although I think there are many people who'd used the terms in various ways beforehand, but I did find that people, both internally and externally, enjoyed the upgrade from prompt engineering or model wrapping into maybe a more thoughtful way to build agents.Swyx [00:00:33]: For those who haven't caught up on that, I have on screen the Don't Build Multi-Agents post, which you should go read on and we might refer to, and Cole Murray, who created OpenInspect.Cole [00:00:43]: Great to be here.Swyx [00:00:43]: So let's talk about it. Everyone is building their own Devins. What's going on?The December Shift: From Handholding Models to Autonomous PRsCole [00:00:51]: So I think the engineering world is waking up to this idea of background agents, cloud agents, whatever you'd like to call it. And I think we saw a shift around the December timeframe of 2025, where the models Opus 4.5 and GPT 5.2, they reached a capability where we moved away from handholding the model and being able to actually more or less autonomously drive the model. And what I mean by that is that we could pretty much go from a specification to a completed pull request, assuming the spec was good enough, with very little friction. And that paradigm alone, I think, changed a lot of how we interact with agents, and opened this world where background agents became more practical.Swyx [00:01:41]: I think for Cole, everyone experienced this in December, but I feel like there was just this increasing ramp, right? There was this moment which was, I think, Sonnet 3.7, where, You guys rewrote Devin in one night or something. So describe 2025 or how it felt from your side.Walden [00:02:01]: In retrospect, we always thought it was ramping up, but then even now, over the last three, four months from today, it's been ramping up even faster. So it's almost funny to be talking about how, big of a leap Sonnet 3.7 was, and honestly, a lot of it was stripping out parts of Devin that were no longer needed with that jump in of intelligence. But I also just think that a lot of the recent leaps, especially, you look at, models like Opus and the latest GPT models, they are reaching levels of autonomy where people are actually finding that they actually can just be hands-off. And people who were once debating, “Oh, do I need to be in the weeds with my model in the IDE? Can I just completely move it off into the cloud?” That's a more serious conversation, and we've seen that in all of our growth charts. Internally there's this funny graph where our usage has, of PRs, our merged PRs, has grown 7X since I forget what it was called.Swyx [00:02:57]: I think Dev, maybe tweeted that. Yes.Walden [00:03:01]: it grew like 7X over, the last, I think it was, two months, three months, something like that. And then you see our engineering headcount growth. It's, gone up by, 10% or something.Swyx [00:03:11]: We were, we were afraid To release this. So this is Devin commit percentages on all Devin repos, was 16% in January and now 80% in March.Walden [00:03:25]: It's a big shift right now. And so it makes sense that a lot of people are now thinking about, buying Devin, but also maybe, trying to build their own and there's Lots of I have a lot of fun building Devin, so I can see why other people would want to build their own cloud agents as well. Matt, well, maybe it's good to hear, what initially inspired you to try to build OpenInspect?OpenInspect: Ramp, Cloud Agents, and Open SourceCole [00:03:49]: OpenInspect came about, through primarily my clients observing how they were using tools like Claude, OpenAI's Codex at the time, and seeing some of the friction that they were having with it. Primarily the Claude was being used through Slack, and a big issue they ran into was that the sessions that were launched were specific to whoever called it via Slack. And so if a PM was the one who invoked the session and they would then go to pass context to engineering can't see the session. And that in itself was a deal breaker because the PM, “Hey, engineering, can you jump in?” But there's nothing to jump in on unless they're copy-pasting out or the single response that came back. And so seeing some of these problems, I had built a similar architecture internally, just to experiment with, test out different ideas as this trend of moving off of localhost was starting to become, And as Ramp released their blog post, I had a lot of the pieces for this already in place, and just thought it would be funny to, see what Claude could do just purely from the blog post. And on my X account, there's actually a thread of where I live tweeted, going through thisCole [00:05:14]: comparing GPT and Claude as both of them are going through it.Swyx [00:05:17]: On the announcement thing or something else?Cole [00:05:19]: right after it got released. We can put it in the show notes. Yeah, it was helpful that I had already knew how to verify the system. I knew what I was looking for. I think Ramp did a great job of really illustrating, the technical aspects of how to build something. It was much more than just like, “Hey, we built a great system.” It was, “And here's how you can build it too.” And so, I resonated a lot with that, just with the problems that I was already seeing, and I thought that, looking around, I didn't really see anything in the open source community that, met this type of system. I think there's a lot that run, in localhost like Superset, Conductor, and many others.But nothing that was actually running in the cloud. And so, I built it, and I thought it was interesting to just open source it and allow anyone to then have a foundation that they can mix and match on top of.The Business of Background Agents: Open Source vs. DevinSwyx [00:06:16]: So literally after Devin was launched was, there was OpenDevin Which became All Hands. I don't know if you tried that orWalden [00:06:22]: I was going to say, one of the things that interested me a lot with OpenInspect was, you didn't try to go make it then something you monetize. There are a lot of, I think, these open source projects would then go and really try to, raise VSwyx [00:06:36]: That's why no OpenDevin. Yeah.Walden [00:06:38]: yeah, and how did you think about that? I thought that was very interesting.Cole [00:06:44]: I thought, and just what I had seen across my clients, was that having a background agent system is going to become a critical infrastructure within their company. And so because of that, I think that I wanted to open source it so that they could fork it and put in whatever customization they wanted. To that question though, I get asked all, “Oh, are you going to raise? Are you going to turn this into a service?”Walden [00:07:08]: I'm sure you've gotten offers.Cole [00:07:09]: but primarily I don't want to do that for a few reasons. One, I think that I don't want to compete for, $20 a seat. I think that is just a really difficult business. I think it's very easy to copy the main pieces of it. Again, I built this fairly quickly. And I think because you are not owning, I guess, the entire stack, it's hard to monetize. You have money being made at the sandbox layer with Daytona, E2b, many other players. You have money being made at the model layer. And you sit in this weird in-between gray area where what are you actually selling? You're selling, I guess, the infrastructure. You're selling, the integrations maybe.Swyx [00:07:55]: let's ask the guy. What are you What are you selling?Walden [00:07:59]: Well, yeah, there's multiple layers to this in practice, and actually it's funny you mentioned the infrastructure, ‘cause when we got started building Devin as well, we had to go figure out how to make the infrastructure as well because,Swyx [00:08:10]: You had to build this two years before everyone else,?Swyx [00:08:15]: Including, the model sideWalden [00:08:17]: It was not, it was not very polished at the start, when we just built it off of raw VMs from cloud providers like EC2, the boot up time was so slow, I think, And especially then, turning off the machines, saving them, and then to be able to bring them back up again when the, when you want Devin to wake up again later. It would just be out cold for like 10 minutes because that's just how long these systems took. They were not built for this repeated down and up usage. And so we actually had to go do all of that. And as a result now, one thing we offer when we go and sell Devin to people is, you don't have to worry about all the compute side of things. We'll make it work. We'll make it work in your cloud if you want it to. But aside from the product, and I want to go into the agents and the tuning of the intelligence part later, but I think a big part of what we do at Cognition as well is to just make sure that your company learns and uses and adopts these coding agents. ‘Cause I think for especially the largest enterprises in the world, you find that there is a lot of people who want to move over to using AI for their day-to-day workloads. But because of the way projects are planned, because, not everyone is literate in using AI in these ways, having a team of engineers who can actually go in and onboard you, set up all the integrations you need, the automations you need to really get to that level of, leverage with AI, is super helpful. And so We do that. We show thought partners to the customers that we work with as well.Swyx [00:09:56]: So let's talk about, architectural stuff. I think that's always, that is something that was the topic of conversation between the two of you. Is this, the mental model that you want to start with or something else? I'll just leave the floor open to you guys.Agent Architecture: Harness in the Box vs. Out of the BoxCole [00:10:11]: I think, maybe we can start here as just a general what are the pieces of a background agent system. And then maybe we can go into some of the nuances of, Decisions that you can make.Swyx [00:10:22]: But I guess I also Like, what, maybe what Walden is saying is the agent is like in this open code box, I guess. Right? This is infra, and then there's, that's the agent. And you had this discussion about whether you put the agent in here or in Out externally. Can you tease that out?Cole [00:10:39]: In a background agent systems, you have a decision to make of where the agent is actually going to run. This is typically described as the harness in the box or out of the box. With running the agent in the box, you're making some trade-offs by doing that. The negative trade-off you're making is primarily security. Because the agent is running in that box, unless you otherwise design it, all of your secrets need to go into that box as well. And given the nature of AI, it can be unpredictable, and you could very easily end up accidentally exfilling your secrets, or other unintended behavior. Now, the out of the box is the idea that we are going to have the actual agent running not directly in the sandbox, and we will have, quote-unquote, the brain of the agent running in some type of worker, control plane. That sandbox then is going to serve as the hands where the brain is basically operating and making tool calls into that environment to manipulate it. I guess other trade-off that you're making between the two systems is that, in my opinion, running it out of the box is much more complex because, you have state that has to be managed, whereas if you're running it in the box, all of the state of that agent is actually in the box, and yes, it's you could persist it elsewhere, but it's all localized and you have less concerns to worry about.Walden [00:12:08]: I think a lot of that, what you mentioned, is why we actually from the start built Devin to what we called separate the brain from the machine. The other thing that this allows you to do is reuse any existing infrastructure you have for dev boxes Perhaps. And so you don't have to worry as much about making a new type of dev box that has all the dependencies the brain needs, as you mentioned, the secrets the brain needs as well. One thing that we've seen some customers run into is, you have a GitHub app and you want Devin, your agent, whatever, be able to interact with GitHub through this application, but then you have different users with different actual permissions. If they are all interacting through the same GitHub app and there's no actual, separation between the system that decides, what it does and the actual secrets on the machine, then you run into an issue where, okay, it's hard to do the separation. But in practice, with Devin, it's much easier because we just say whatever you put on the machine, that is, the scope of basically what the user is free to do, what the agent is free to do. So only put the most scoped secrets on that machine, and then the brain is fully not accessible from the machine. So you don't have to worry about messing with the, any of the most secure parts of the brain if the user is free to do whatever they want with the machine.Swyx [00:13:31]: I was going to just bring, I have this, chart from OpenAI, where I don't know if this is, in the box, out of the box. That is something that they do use to describe it. And then also recently Anthropic did, managed agentsSwyx [00:13:44]: Which is, this is their thing. I don't know. It's all, it's all variations of the same pattern, right?Cole [00:13:49]: So this would be out of the box.Swyx [00:13:51]: Which, is preferable for them because it's less work?Cole [00:13:56]: I would say it's more work.Swyx [00:13:58]: It's more work?Cole [00:13:58]: But it, in my opinion, it is the better architecture of the two. It's just, you're taking on a bit of complexity by doing that.Repo Setup, Docker, and VM-Based Development EnvironmentsWalden [00:14:07]: One thing I've not seen a lot of other players do well is how do you manage what's actually on the box? And this can be complex for many reasons. Let's say you have a big repository that's changing and updating a lot with changing dependencies. How do you make sure that the working environment of the agent actually stays up to date, has all the credentials it needs to, let's say, run the app and test it, and all the things you want your autonomousSwyx [00:14:34]: So a repo setup.Walden [00:14:35]: Exactly. So in, internally At Cognition, we call this repo setup.Cole [00:14:39]: The hardest part ofWalden [00:14:40]: It's been a perennial problem since the start of the company, of how do we help people get this set up? Because not everyone just has, working cloud environments working out of the box. And do you find this to be a common problem withSwyx [00:14:53]: How do you solve it?Walden [00:14:53]: Your clients?Cole [00:14:54]: This is a very common problem, and through my consulting, this is a lot of what I help teams do. A lot of teams don't really have great developer environment setups, if any. A lot of the times it's, “Go talk to Bob and get the secrets,” and that obviously doesn't work when the agent needs to actually set this up. And so a lot of that, most teams are using Docker Compose or some type of microservices. And so for theSwyx [00:15:19]: Even in prod?Cole [00:15:20]: Not in prod. With the OpenInspect, you are using this primarily to interact, and make code changes. There is other use cases, but you can hook, whether through CLI, MCPs, other tools, you can then hook that into your production systems primarily for, SRE type use cases. But you are not, necessarily, trying to test your prod internal microservice through the system.Walden [00:15:48]: And you mentioned Docker Compose. I think one direction we saw some of our friends take early on was, using Docker containers as the level of abstraction for their models. There's lots of reasons, I think, why Docker containers are not great. One thing is, Docker container's not really a true security boundary, for one. But the other is, if you are running real applications, a lot of times those applications use Docker, and then you have to think about Docker in Docker, which is, really weird. And so I think part of, the really hard challenge of getting VMs to work, why did we do that? Well, it was because we realized that you actually needed, full VMs to be able to do these types of things. And especially nowadays where there's actually value in running the application and clicking around and sending you screen recordings of these things. The value just, keeps adding on top of that. But it is a decision I see people run into when they try to build their own systems, is, “Oh, do we, in addition to this, do we put the agent in the machine or out of the machine? Do we use Docker? Do we use something else?” What do you recommend people nowadays?Cole [00:16:57]: I think Docker is a good solution for maybe not running the agent, but running your infrastructure, because that is more or less the same setup your engineers are probably already using. If they're not, then I don't know what they're using. But they're probably already using Docker Compose.Swyx [00:17:14]: I've always had a small candle for web containers. I don't know if you guys have tried them before.Swyx [00:17:19]: To me, they were, supposed to be like Docker Light.Cole [00:17:22]: Is it?Swyx [00:17:22]: I don't know.Cole [00:17:22]: No, I haven't tried it. But yeah, I think any environment that you've set up that is a good experience for your developer naturally lends itself to being easy to set up for the agent. And once you figure out that local developer story, you've more or less solved the agent in a sandbox, environment setup. OpenInspect does have hooks as well, where you can, run a setup SH script that will pre-install everything. You can then pre-snapshot that build so it starts instantly, and then there is a second hook to actually then, restore the state of the sandbox when it comes back. And so you can already have all of those microservices running and basically get the same experience that you would on your machine within the sandbox.Testing Agents: Computer Use, Screenshots, and Real App WorkflowsWalden [00:18:08]: Another thing that we've been thinking a lot about is like Different VM service offerings. Have you had customers where they needed like macOS specific VMs or like Windows specificWalden [00:18:20]: VMs?Walden [00:18:22]: There are like many technologies in the world that only work on specific types of machines, right? If you're building a.NET application that has to run on Windows or like, maybe more commonly if you want to build iOS or macOS Does that workSwyx [00:18:32]: Does Commission supportSwyx [00:18:33]: Choices like that?Walden [00:18:35]: The fundamental architecture we do, because we do the separation, it does support, but the actual work in progress is happening right now on these. Another thing that we've actually recently added support now for, it's in beta, is doing Android development. To do that, we needed to support, I think, nested virtualization within our machines because the VM itself is like a, is a virtualized Firecracker instance, and then you had to then run another Android emulator inside. And there's like weird performance issues that like, it, which is why it's like still in beta. We have to think through these problems, but it unlocks a lot for anyone who wants to do Android development.Swyx [00:19:13]: I was trying to find like a reference video for the testing thing. I couldn't find it, but I think you worked on the testing, capability. Why call it testing and not like computer use or I don't know, it's, what's the general Category of problem?Walden [00:19:26]: I think that when people think about the ability of an AI to run your app and test it, I think they actually over-index on the computer use part of it because computer use in my mind is the literal, okay, you want what button you want to click. Can you emit the right coordinates to go click that button? I think testing is actually a really interesting likeWalden [00:19:48]: Problem-solving, challenge for these AIs because if you wanted to do arbitrary testing, imagine you make a change that spans the frontend and the backend, maybe, even some other like even more deeply nested service. To actually test that change, we have to reason through what-- how do you first run these applications to orchestrate with each other with the right version of the code? Then, okay, how do I trigger the feature or how do I make the thing actually happen? And this can get arbitrarily hard, maybe you have to be an admin. Maybe a certain thing has to be feature flagged on. Maybe, you have to like run two sessions and then send us a very specific word into one of them to trigger a specific behavior. And figuring out how do you do that requires a lot of code base context, requires, a lot of orchestration that we've specifically done. And in some cases, we found that you actually, no one frontier model can actually do this full end-to-end task itself.Walden [00:20:42]: We've seen cases where we actually had to orchestrate different frontier models together to solve this problem together. That is where we spend most of our time when we think about this testing problem, not so much the computer use part. Computer use for what it's worth has gotten a lot better with recent models and it's made that part of the job certainly easier.Swyx [00:20:58]: Especially with like even 4.7, that they released yesterday, apparently like way better in terms of the vision stuff, which is going to be encompassing computer use.Walden [00:21:08]: Having evals for all these as well is something that like takes a while to build up. And having the evals be right is tricky as well. Do you ever see like, clients who are building their own agents have to start standing up evals to make sure things don't regress?Swyx [00:21:25]: Not so much evals in the traditional sense, but specific to the testing part that has just gone in. I just added support for screenshots And in theory you can also do video. I need to put in a plugin to do that. But they do show up natively, and it was a very heavily requested feature, especially after Cursor's recording came out. I think that was very enlightening for everyone of like, “Oh, this is a very good feature to actually have.”, I think with Devin you guys have had this for a while.Swyx [00:21:57]: Oh, yeah. See how screenshots work. Yeah, I don't know if there's anything, super and not obvious. It's like once what feature to build, you can just prompt it and it Will mostly work.Walden [00:22:09]: I think to Walden's point, though, the computer use is a subset of the larger testing problem, and I think that's very specific to the code base that you're working and it's not something that, out of the box that you could just solve it. The-- you do need the code base context to actually know how to test it. And I think in the case of a background agent system, you fortunately do have that code base locally that what is changing and could then inspect it and use that to drive the model.Swyx [00:22:40]: For those who haven't seen it before, this is an example of how it works. You, after the PR is done, you click testing approved, and then it sends you back a video. What I really like is that it labels, It's very small here, but it actually labels what it's testing. And then it-- and then you actually see the cursor and everything. So I don't know, yeah, the engineering in this, just Whatever you want to show. ‘cause this is like, this is one of those like, oh, few of the AGI moments, right? ‘cause Once I look at this, I actually don't I wish I can just merge inside Of Slack instead of going to GitHub ‘cause I don't need to see the code. I know it works.Walden [00:23:19]: Maybe a new feature in Cursor. Yeah, the annotations at the bottom was also a big difference for me when I, when I added those.Swyx [00:23:27]: It's just like, what am I looking at? What are you trying to demonstrate?Walden [00:23:30]: Exactly. There's a surprisingly long tail of small details that ends up making a big difference for this end metric of like how fast do you actually merge the code in. One experience that we spent a lot of time tuning early on was what is the right experience on GitHub for these tools. Because I think, most tools out there when you build the agent, you'll think about, oh, it'll create the PR for you. We try to take that a step further and say, “Oh, what if we actually made sure you could interact Devin, with direct Devin directly on GitHub?” And so we made sure that you can comment on GitHub, and Devin would actually receive those comments and address them back. But there's actually quite a bit of tuning you have to do here because you can imagine that actually like-We recently have Devin Review, for example. Devin Review will post comments on his own PR And then Devin has to then goGitHub Workflows: Devin Review, Comments, and PR AutomationSwyx [00:24:23]: He answers his own comments, which is Really loopy. So like, yeah, I like that it just updates here that it's, that I have commented But usually it's just me saying like, “Hey, merged, fix any merge conflicts.”Walden [00:24:37]: The, so when Devin fixes his own comments, you might be scared that, oh, maybe I'll infinite loop. But we've put a lot of work into making sure it doesn't, both by making sure that the comments are high signal, but also that the agent is thoughtful about what comments it immediately goes and tries to fix, and what comments it's like, “Wait a second, I think you're wrong.” Actually, that's one of my favorite moments is when Devin tells me that I'm wrong, when I try to get it to do something different. But tuning that behavior, actually makes a big difference in terms of how useful the actual GitHub experience is.Cole [00:25:06]: I think to touch on that as well, I think having the AI reviewer integrated into the system is a critical part of this background system. OpenInspect does have that. It has a GitHub code reviewer that you can control the prompt. It does do comments as well. It doesn't do them automatically yet. The capability is there, but it's not fully used.Swyx [00:25:27]: So you have to ask for it?Cole [00:25:28]: you do, yeah. You can tag it on GitHub, and then whatever you named your, GitHub bot, it will then follow up on it. It will then, if you have merge conflicts or whatever you have asked it to resolve, it will then resolve it, but it doesn't do it automatically yet.Integrations: Slack, MCP, and First-Party Agent InterfacesWalden [00:25:42]: Well, I'm curious, what is, the most common thing that people end up requesting, that they still need on top of OpenInspect when you help them go implement it?Cole [00:25:52]: I think a lot of it comes down to actually integrating it into the company. It's one thing to have the background agent system set up, but if it isn't actually integrated into your larger ecosystem, it isn't that useful. It is useful to be able to kick off sessions, but what we really want to be able to do is hook it into all of our other systems, whether that is the production database with read-only credentials, the logs, a Confluence or internal knowledge-based system. I think that is where I see the huge leap for companies, and that can be a challenge for companies as well who are maybe not familiar with exactly how to approach it, especially if they're in environments that have more compliance type things where, access control can be pretty big and how do you deliberately think about these problems, I find to be, one of the problems that comes with a system like this.Walden [00:26:46]: The thing we found is So, MCPs, obviously it has been like this, really big explosion of, oh, you can go, integrate it with all these different things. But to actually get the integration right and the and get the right experience, oftentimes we found that we had to go build our own ad hoc things. I think Slack is a great example of this. You could give your agent a Slack MCP and okay, it can post messages back to you on Slack. But we actually use Devin like a coworker in Slack, and that's how it's been built from the ground up. But to do that, you actually need to, support webhooks that come back, right? And then Devin has to respond in a natural way and then hopefully don't spam your threads too much and annoy the people in your company. So you got to tune that experience just right. Especially when there's a lot of back and forths, we find that we actually have to go beyond the simple MCP integrations in these places.Swyx [00:27:39]: I just pulled up the MCP marketplace. I know this is a Fair amount of work. Is the answer to eventually take first party control of all the top MCPs? Is that theWalden [00:27:48]: I would love a world where you could have something that's more expressive than MCP. That, goes both ways, not just a set of tools, but a proper system that interacts back and lets it Have the right experience with all these interfaces.Swyx [00:28:03]: So there actually is sampling in the MCP spec, but nobody Uses it, right?Walden [00:28:07]: And so I think that's the other part is, actually we found that when the MCP spec starts to get too complicated, it starts to lose its original promise of Being like a simple one-step connect. Now then we have to go figure out how to support all these different variations of things and It starts to look a lot like just building the first party integrations in a lot of these cases now.Cole [00:28:29]: I think it matters, too, how critical it is to your company, right? If this is something that nearly every session is going through, it probably makes sense to own it so that you can make optimizations on top of it Versus just whatever is off the shelf.Swyx [00:28:43]: Awesome. Other than MCPs, what else, sorry, well, I don't know if that's Narrowing in too much on, integrations. But what else? What other elements of building OpenInspect or Devin that you guys really sink on?Memory and Knowledge: What Agents Should RememberCole [00:28:59]: I think, a problem that comes up very frequently is this idea of memories or knowledge base.Swyx [00:29:05]: Oh, boy. How do you solve it?Cole [00:29:08]: so not solved yet, is the short answer.Cole [00:29:11]: it's something, there's a open issue for it, someone asking about it.Swyx [00:29:16]: There's, I, D Wiki hasn't indexed anything about memory yet.Cole [00:29:20]: how I'm seeing it solved across my clients is primarily through skills. I find that skills can be a good gap within that or updating Claude MD, but I think memory as a whole is a pretty unsolved problem, and it is why I've been hesitant to add it. I think there is parts of memory and that can be addressed, but I think as a whole it's a very difficult retrieval problem.Swyx [00:29:44]: Oh my God. RAMP didn't write anything about memory? I see zero search results.Walden [00:29:50]: No. Memory can be quite tricky to get right because it's the retrieval, but also the generation of the memories that can be really tricky. You don't want it to just like Remember very specific details.Swyx [00:29:59]: Walk us through the Devin memory journey because I know there's been a journey.Walden [00:30:03]: the first version of memory that like stuck around for a while was A system we have called Knowledge. And the idea was we wanted it to pick up things over time and not need the user to be proactive about teaching Devin things. So, okay, any time you remind Devin, “Wait, no, that's not quite the way you're supposed to use Git”Like, we actually want Devin to say, “Hey, do you want me to actually just remember this for the future?” And for you to just basically quickly approve or reject and for it to build up over time. ‘Cause I find that, 95%, I think, or some crazy stat like that of the memories that Devin has are all through these auto-generated things. Very few people actually just want to sit down and write big docs on Here's how you're supposed to work with the technology, et cetera. The generation and the retrieval has been something that we've been trying to tune a lot over the years. Generation, you don't want it to remember something like, if you asked one time to like, “Oh, please open as a draft PR,” you don't want to be like, “Oh, everyone forever now should get their PRs as draft PRs.” But you do want some, conveyor. Maybe you want to say like, “Oh, Cole generally likes, things to be created as draft PRs.” Same with retrieval, if you have thousands of these memories, how do you actually make sure they're retrieved at the right time? And that can be quite tricky to do right without exploding the context with a bunch of useful yeah, useless information. Surprising amount of just, eval work to just make sure that, memory is, remains a reliable system as new models come and go.Cole [00:31:31]: Do you have anything that you could share on, memory pruning? And like the temporal aspect of memory?Swyx [00:31:36]: Deleting and forgetting?Walden [00:31:39]: The, today, the, So the things they could do is it could edit memories. And so if your memory used to say like, “Oh, Cole likes to open everything as like a draft PR,” then you can imagine, “No, don't do that.” And then it'll say, “Oh, do you want me to update the memory to be Cole now want everything as, open PRs?” I think that at the same time we don't know if this is going to be the final version of the system. Whatever we have here will probably, translate into the new system that we'll be coming up with. But I think one big difference between two years ago and today is these agents are really good at using anything that resembles a file system natively. And so part of us are, is thinking, “Oh, should we rebuild memories to feel more like a file system that we let the agent navigate on its own?” That's been an interesting exploration. Also similar ideas in the scale space.Swyx [00:32:35]: I am pulling up OpenClaude's memory thing right now. So memory, OpenClaude has like this like daily memory journal thing, right? And you can I mean, that is a file system you can grep through and is a source of truth. I don't know if it's the best. It's probably super noisy, but at least, if you lose something you can discover it or you can apply some, forgetting algorithm to, more ancient memories that don't get recalled again or something. I don't know.Walden [00:33:01]: One thing we've been trying to do to push the boundaries of how you use agents at your company is letting an agent basically have a very similar file, a memory.md or something, and just like be your permanent PM for a specific set of issues maybe. So we have like some Slack channels internally, maybe a Slack channel dedicated to, a specific product like DeepWiki maybe. And you can imagine that, or you want a Devin that never stops, it's just always awake, but it has this like memory dock that it can just maintain for itself about, okay, what are like the number one priorities of what we have to fix and prioritize? Who is responsible for some upcoming work? Maybe they'll even Devin will even tag you on some recurring basis. And so it's been an interesting move to see, okay, how can we actually use Devin for more than just engineering? Can we actually upstream above the engineering process and maybe it's just Devin creating tickets, which then maybe some humans do, but then maybe other Devins do.Swyx [00:34:00]: One of my more fun automations is go research competitors and just suggest stuff to me on a weekly basis. That's the automation. I can't find it right now, but basically it just like, “Look at competitors and suggest things.” “And here are three things that you've suggested that I don't want any more of,” and you just stick that in the prompts. But like I wish actually So for like when I, for example, when I reject a PR, I wish that it updated memory so that I can then just not have to go up, go back and update the scheduled, sync, but anyway, feature request.Walden [00:34:31]: what? We might change it soon. I guess OpenInspect, in the time you've been around, has there been anything you tried to implement but then you had to like undo and like do a different way?OpenInspect Architecture: Webhooks, Control Planes, and Agent StateCole [00:34:41]: Nothing yet, but something that is on my mind. The initial way that I built it was that each of the integrations lives as its own package. And so you have The Slack bot, which is what's handling the webhooks, and then is basically interacting with the control plane. As I'm seeing the system starting to be more integrated, specifically with the GitHub bot integration, I'm considering bringing that all into the central control plane because especially now I want to start, And a request that I'm getting is the ability to monitor, the actual, pull requests being merged, as well as just tracking ofSwyx [00:35:19]: What do I have open?Cole [00:35:21]: What do I have open? How many of these are getting merged? How many comments are showing up? To just understand the health of the system. And so in the case of a GitHub app, you only have one webhook. And so then it's a question of do I put that webhook in that GitHub bot package? That's weird. It doesn't really make sense to live there because that package is more for like the code reviewer. Or do I like centralize it? So that's something that's on my mind of, making that decision. I think the other one we touched on earlier is the harness in the box versus out of the box. I think long term the architecture will eventually come back out of the box. Some of the newer tools that I've added are calling back into the control plane so that you don't have the secrets in the sandbox. And so I think long term I probably will pull the actual, agent out of the box, but I think for now it's fine.Subagents and Multi-Agent Systems: When Parallelism Helps or HurtsSwyx [00:36:16]: Just, a quick question on pulling the agent out of the box. I'm One thing I'm very bullish on this year is agents calling other agents or spawning sub-agents or Whatever you want to call it. Does that make it harder or easier? I can't tell. Because if the harness is in the box, you can just spin up more boxes. If the harness is outside the box, then you're, it's less easy because you are, you have a unicorn pet of a, of a harness that's, living outside the box.Cole [00:36:45]: In theory it would be the same way, right? Whether, one agent has launched many, sub-sessions within it, OpenInspect, for example, can launch sub-sessions and actually create other environments and then monitor them. In the case where it is out of the box, that would basically just be an additional session that's running. And so that session is also running outside of the box. It's running in your worker plane, wherever you're running this. And then you really just have to think about how does your top level agent then interact with it. I do think it can be more complex, just ‘cause again, you have now a more difficult architecture. But I think if you figured it out once, it's probably fine.Swyx [00:37:26]: Well, then I'm just, throwing it open to you in terms of, I call this like meta Devin management. Which is like the, Devin's calling Devins or Devin scheduling Devins or querying trajectories or anything like that. What have you built or unshipped, anything?Cole [00:37:46]: I think one of the surprising things we've seen is that a lot of the ways that, these, separate agents work with each other, and you want them to, parallelize their work, has still mostly followed the same manager sub-agents regime. And a lot of people I think are excited about this world where you have swarms of agents that, talk with each other all over the place. We've actually given Devin an MCP so they can just go arbitrarily message other Devins And create new Devins, et cetera. But I guess, it somehow creates, a really chaotic world in that sense. And so we've still found that most practical use on a day-to-day basis has been one single Devin.Cole [00:38:33]: Figuring out how to segregate the work and get, have other Devins work on it in, a relatively isolated sense, each with their own boxes Not sharing machines, so there's, a very little room for conflict is the regime that you have to create today.Swyx [00:38:50]: I'll call out, the experiments from Cursor, right? This is Wilson Lin's work on Single agent to multi-agent, and you're obviously famously on the side of don't build multi-agent. But they went through the whole thing, only to arrive at, this Which is exactly what Devin has, I think.Cole [00:39:08]: I think there will be a revision to that post at some point AboutSwyx [00:39:12]: Tell us about itCole [00:39:12]: I think multi-agents were very much not at all possible a year ago. You do see more multi-agent experiments today, but you can argue, are they really multi-agents, or are they just just, tool calls,? There are people who, will create sub-agents to go look for XYZ file, XYZ implementation. Has really nice context management benefits because all of the tool calls and tokens that it spends then get collapsed back to just the answer for the main agent. There's a lot of benefits to doing this. We basically have Devin do this with Deep Bookie, make a call out to Deep Bookie, give you back the results, but that feels like a tool call,? It's not like these, two collaborators actually talking back with each, back and forth with each other. But I think the thing that gives me the most bullishness that multi-agents might actually be possible is actually what I said earlier about Devin will actually sometimes tell me I'm wrong and push back, and I think that demonstrates a level of maturity and communication today that makes a multi-agent world possible. One, can two agents who have seen different information come back to each other and actually figure out who is right, what is the correct implementation? They're not just, yes men. Claude, I guess is like, used to just say, what is it? “You're right,” or,Swyx [00:40:25]: “You're absolutely right.”Cole [00:40:26]: “You're absolutely right.” Yeah.Swyx [00:40:28]: The Have you seen, did you seeCole [00:40:29]: The age is overSwyx [00:40:30]: The Codex app troll in Topic? This is the Codex app. Inside of Settings, there's a little, there's a little Easter egg, right? So if you go to, the Themes or Appearance, right? There's all these, color codes, and the top is absolutely, and it's the Topic's colors. Which is such a troll. Anyway.Model Behavior: Pushback, Adversarial Prompts, and Agent SkepticismCole [00:40:53]: I love that Easter egg. Did you discover that yourself?Swyx [00:40:54]: No, it was, someone was, tweeting about it And I was like, I was like, “Is this true?” Because, sometimes people just tweet stuff to, get a rise out of you. But yeah, there you go, in Topic colors.Cole [00:41:06]: Yeah. So yeah, we're out of this regime where, it just says you're absolutely right, and they can have real conversations and real back and forths.Swyx [00:41:13]: You can prompt it as well to be more adversarial or whatever. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that, I mean, to me, that is more intelligence, right? That is not just something that's, a dumb tool, it's actually pushing back on you I think. Yeah.Cole [00:41:24]: when you mentioned, of course, the blog posts. There was one blog they had where they fed a swarm of agents together and built a browser.Swyx [00:41:34]: That was I think that was the one.Cole [00:41:36]: You can have, likeSwyx [00:41:37]: I think it's the same oneCole [00:41:37]: Creation of it. We found a surprising success of, don't do a swarm or anything, just have one Devin, it does its own context management. Just let it keep running for a while and give it some crazy tasks. I think we asked it to, rebuild, a Windows OS system. And it managed to do it just like, going on for long enough. It'sSwyx [00:41:55]: Was this Andrew's thing?Cole [00:41:58]: there were lots of demos that we ended up not posting, ‘cause at some point we'd just be posting way too much a bunch of, Demos. But I love that because it shows that I think the multi-agent thing still has, a bit of exciting sexiness to it, which is maybe still beyond still, the actual delta it adds to the capabilities of these systems. But it's absolutely the future. I think we're heading in that direction and we can see the progress being made there already.Swyx [00:42:25]: If I were to, make one super minor pushback because I don't feel that confident about it yetCole [00:42:33]: Go for itSwyx [00:42:33]: But I've had Ryan Lopopolo from OpenAI on the pod And he's a super slop cannon, right? Oh my God, that's my coding agent being done. I downloaded this, Peon Ping. I don't know if you guys have heard this. It takes like-, sound packs from popular games like, Command and Conquer and Warcraft, and then it plays it whenever it's done. And so it's like, “Work,” or whatever, “At your command,” or something. Anyway, what I got from the Cursor code base and from Ryan's thing was that there's a slop cannon approach where you try to loosen the single agent's, bottleneck, and I feel like that is, probably an, a very important thing to try to figure out. I don't think anyone's, really solved it. Because then you just have more reviewer slop on top of the agent slop To try to wrangle it all. Ryan will probably very strongly object that I say that he hasn't solved it, but he thinks he's He thinks he's completely solved it. But I think it's still I think it's, very important, ‘cause, that is a bottleneck, right? I feel Devin is slow sometimes Because I'm like, well, yeah, this is very readable and very sensible, but also it is slower than it could be if I just, I want a button to just say, “Just ramp this up 1,000 next parallel, in parallel and just, see what happens,”? And I don't know if that's, feasible at some point in the future.Code Review, Entropy, and AI SlopWalden [00:43:55]: I And we've also run experiments internally where we've basically tried to build entire products, true products that we knew we would eventually ship, but for now, let's try to see if we can do it just by purely, vibe coding on top of each other, auto merge, no code review at all. And then there's this benchmark of how many weeks can you go onto this for Before you say, “We have the trashiest code base.”Walden [00:44:18]: “Let's actually rewrite it from scratch.”Swyx [00:44:19]: Start a new factory, yeah. What'd you find?Walden [00:44:21]: I think we found that the state-of-the-art in December was you can probably, run this for about two weeks. By the end of those two weeks, you'd find that, hey, you want to, change the color of a button. Well, it turns out this button is implemented in, 10 different places, and they, have All these different variations, and oh, you forgot one of them, and actually it's a slightly different color in one spot. And you're like, “Okay, this is too much to work with. Let's actually try to do code review at the same time.” And make sure that we're on top of our software, actually cleaning it up a bit And making sure it's done in a scalable way.Cole [00:44:54]: I think building on that, the idea of, you don't have to look at code, I think is generally a bad idea. And the meme that I have for thatWalden [00:45:03]: What timeline, all right, is Do you think that statement will be true on?Cole [00:45:06]: I think probably for a while it'll be true that you should continue to look at your code. A problem that I see a lot of teams run into that I work with who are embracing AI native, AI first coding, is The meme that I have is that your code base regresses to your worst engineer, because that engineer who is, very gung-ho about AI and is not auditing their code, their pattern starts cementing into the code, and now the AI is referencing their patterns. And so now their if/else block that, is 20 if/elses back and forth, the AI is seeing that as the pattern of how things are done and starts to then exponentially grow this slop. And I find to your point, a pretty good approach to that is having scheduled cleanup, whether by humans or through systems, that are looking for duplication. They then address that. You'll end up with like 12 helpers for how to format a date. And you need to address that, because otherwise it will continue to sprawl.Swyx [00:46:09]: Within balance, I think it's fine to have some duplication, and then sometimes To have garbage collection, right? Yeah. The What I've been, talking about with a lot of engineering leaders is that you want to be very strict about the boundaries between modules, and it's your job as an architect, as a CTO, whatever, to say like, “Okay, here's the hard contract between you guys and you guys. Whatever you do inside this black box is your business. You do whatever. But between these guys, let's be, really damn clear, and any movement must be signed off by a human or me,” or. Then, and like that's that. I don't know if you have any other modifications or advice.Walden [00:46:44]: Well, I guess generally on the topic of, where humans can be useful, I found that ‘cause, some of these, really deep infra problems, sometimes just having a human that just has, really deep expertise can make a big difference. I've actually seen this come into play when actually building agents. So we've had a few friends now, try building their own coding agents, and I think one same problem that I recurringly heard a lot of them run into was this problem of like, “Oh, Grep is really slow on our agents' machines.” And so a lot of them, I assume because they're using AI and they themselves don't have, super deep infra background knowledge, say, “Okay, we're going to go build our own custom Grep index. It's going to be really fast,” and use that as a way around this problem. When we ran into this problem About like, maybe like a year and a half ago when we were, in the early days of building Devin, we obviously didn't have AI then. We just asked our, how to, how to do this. You can just swap out a new Grep index, so.Infrastructure Details: Grep, File Systems, and SandboxesSwyx [00:47:45]: What do you mean you hand-coded Devin? What?Walden [00:47:48]: It's like, can you believe we hand-wrote this code? And we had, our infra people who are really amazing, they were looking into it and they're like, “Oh, what? We realized that actually the root cause of this problem is actually super simple, but like fine-grain detail,” which is that a lot of these virtual machines actually underlying them don't use real file systems. They use these, network file systems where things are actually cached over the network actually in S3. So when you're Grepping, you're actually making network calls Every time you're doing these things, and that's why Grep is extremely slow on these machines. And so again, goes back to, what is all of the crazy infra work that we had to do to actually get these machines working. If you try to do this yourself, there are tons of small details like this, and so we had to eventually go swap out that network file system. ButSwyx [00:48:35]: I think there's a write-up about it, right? Silas did one about the virtual file system.Walden [00:48:38]: Oh, that was a whole other thing. TheSwyx [00:48:39]: Oh, that's a different thingWalden [00:48:40]: The BlockDev file storage formatSwyx [00:48:42]: I'll bring it upWalden [00:48:42]: Which is, a file system format that we built so that the VMs could be spun up and down very quickly. Basically, the intuition behind this is-Imagine you have, a terabyte of disk, and your agent only, wrote, a hundred lines of code on top of that disk. How long does it, say, take to, save and re-bring up that disk? And most systems, because you're not optimizing for this case, it's just, on the order of a terabyte of work because you have to Save all of that and bring it back up. In our system, we try to build a file system that incrementally builds on top of each other. So every time you save and bring the machine back up, you're only doing work that is proportional to effectively the diff in the file system. And so this, shaves off a lot of time in the boot-up process of Devin. I think we This is actually now outdated. We have a newer system inside of Devin. But yeah, there's a lot of tiny details you have to get right here to actually get the day-to-day experience of Devin to be good.Swyx [00:49:39]: It's, not technically agents, but it is agent infra, and when you sell an agent as a company, you sell agent plus agent infra.Walden [00:49:46]: At least the way we do it be And the other The nice thing about having the agent infra being done together is, you We get to deploy Devin in whatever environment we want now. We don't need to wait for some underlying infra provider to also go and support VPC or on-prem or FedGovCloud, for instance. So we can actually go and figure out, okay, since we own the infrastructure, how can we get that set up for you?Cloud Providers: Modal, Daytona, and Enterprise SandboxesSwyx [00:50:12]: Whereas you're Cloudflare dependent.Cole [00:50:15]: so Cloudflare runs the control plane. The sandboxes, Modal is supported. A contributor just added Daytona. E2B is on the roadmap, and I think there's an abstraction in place that if any contributor wants to add a new provider, they can add that in.Walden [00:50:32]: Well, what are, How are the customers you work with Do they generally try to then go set up a contract with another one of these third-party providers? Do they try to do the VMs in-house?Cole [00:50:44]: most of them I see using Modal. I think Modal has a greatWalden [00:50:48]: Shout out Modal.Swyx [00:50:48]: Shout out Modal.Cole [00:50:50]: I think Modal has a great offering. It captures all of the sandbox pieces you need, snapshots being a pretty big piece of that, and given that they also offer GPUs, I think it's a pretty nice offering as a whole.Swyx [00:51:04]: no debate there.Walden [00:51:07]: Modal is great, especially, I think their container offering is, the most natural, and so especially if you are willing to, forego, the full VM requirements Modal is, a really vast place you can spin something up on.Swyx [00:51:20]: Is there a point So Modal's very Python, and I feel like most workload, has really shifted to JavaScript. I don't know if you guys Get the same feeling. So, okay, when I started Landspace and IE and all these things, I was like 50/50 Python and JS, right? That's roughly. I think that's wrong now. I think JS has won. I don't know if you guys Like, I Maybe I'm overstating it, and maybe for cognition, there's, C# and Java and what have you. But for, new greenfield apps, do you feel that Do you get that sense? Does it matter?Cole [00:51:52]: I think that most of the libraries that I see in this space are Python native first, especially in theCole [00:51:58]: Observability space. That said, I think that there is a pretty big appeal of having your entire system in one language. Especially when you have both your frontend and backend communicating, you can have one central type Which is very nice.Swyx [00:52:11]: That's my case against Modal, which is Then you have to run JS. You can run JS inside Modal. It's just, one extra step That, isn't native to the runtime. I don't know ifWalden [00:52:22]: I don't knowSwyx [00:52:23]: Reviews. Do you have numbers? I don't know.Walden [00:52:25]: the one thing I don't like about Python is whenever AI, whenever it writes Python, it always does, the weirdest patterns, andSwyx [00:52:32]: Oh, because it's, mixing two and three or what?Walden [00:52:34]: I think it's something mixing two and three, yeah. The I don't know if you see this. It always tries to do, has attribute on objects as likeCole [00:52:41]: Oh, my God.Walden [00:52:41]: But it's like But that you shouldn't be doing that. It should error if there wasSwyx [00:52:45]: Because it's training on library code?Cole [00:52:47]: I think it's more of, likeCole [00:52:48]: From what I've seen, it's more of, a reward hacking mechanism where it doesn't want to basicallyWalden [00:52:54]: It'll never error.Cole [00:52:54]: It doesn't want the code to fail. And so it Even when it knows it has the attribute, it'll call getattr on a, and for a lot of my clients who have moved towards more autonomous coding, we've put that in as a lint rule That if you do getattr, your pull request is going to fail.Slop Signatures: Comments, Backwards Compatibility, and TypesSwyx [00:53:12]: Ooh, this is a fun topic. Can you tell me more about this? What else is a sign of AI coding that you have to put guards in?Walden [00:53:21]: So we were talking just before this about Opus 4.7. One of the things this new model likes to do is it writes lots of comments. Not like, it'll, comment every line, but it'll write, paragraph, PRDs, on top of every function. But I will say, to its credit, these aren't slop, descriptions like they were before. “Oh, here's what this function does.” It's like, “Oh, here's actually the r

Introducing the All Def SquADD Cast show “Versus". It's a podcast with the OG SquADD! Each week, the SquADD will debate topics and vote at the end to see what wins. Versus airs every Monday and you can download and listen wherever podcasts are found.Special GuestJordan Conley Dion LackThis Week We DiscussGive Up Kissing vs All Sauces 5 Million Now vs Everything Under $1000 Is FreePermanent Clown Make Up vs Clown Outfit

We are resharing this episode in memory of Michael Harrison, who passed away on April 17, 2026. He was 67. In this episode, we discuss the life and work of musician and Sufi teacher Hazrat Inayat Khan with composer/pianist and Inayat Khan scholar Michael Harrison. Hazrat Inayat Khan ( July 1882 – 5 February 1927) was an Indian professor of musicology, singer, exponent of the saraswati vina, poet, philosopher, and pioneer of the transmission of Sufism to the West. At the urging of his students, and on the basis of his ancestral Sufi tradition and four-fold training and authorization at the hands of Sayyid Abu Hashim Madani (d. 1907) of Hyderabad, he established an order of Sufism (the Sufi Order) in London in 1914. By the time of his death in 1927, centers had been established throughout Europe and North America, and multiple volumes of his teachings had been published. Michael Harrison (October 24, 1958 - April 17, 2026) forged a new approach to composition through just intonation (the system of tuning based on pure harmonic proportions). His works blend classical music traditions of Europe and North India. He is a Guggenheim Fellowship and NYFA Artist Fellowship recipient. Michael created dedicated tuning systems for many of his works. He pioneered a structural approach to composition in which the proportions of harmonic relationships organically determine other musical elements such as pitch, duration, and dynamics. He also invented the “harmonic piano,” a grand piano that plays 24 notes per octave, documented in the Grove Dictionary of Musical Instruments. Harrison seeks expressions of universality via the physics of sound – music that brings one into a state of concentrated listening as a meditative and even mind-altering experience. At the time of his death he was working on “The Raga Cycle”, a series of albums charting the hours of the day through Hindustani raga. The first installment, Evening Light, was released in March 2026 on Cantaloupe Records. More albums in the series were recorded before he became too ill to continue. They will be released in the years ahead. Donations in his memory can be made to the Michael Harrison Foundation for Just Music at JustMusic.org. Topics 00:00 Podcast Welcome 00:22 Encore Tribute 02:28 Mysticism Book Intro 02:49 Spiritual Music Path 04:32 Conservatory And Tonality 06:37 Daily Raga Practice 12:55 Voice Breath And Wazifa 16:48 Creation As Vibration 20:14 Harmony East And West 24:07 Math Of Consonance 25:32 Temperament Versus Just 28:24 Tuning The Soul Quote 32:03 Piano Retuning Journey 35:54 432 Versus 440 39:56 Music As Universal Religion 46:02 Cage Oliveros Deep Listening 51:16 Commentary And Curriculum 53:08 Teaching Programs 55:26 Closing Thanks And Outro Links Michael Harrison — His Own Work Evening Light: Raga Cycle I — Cantaloupe Music (2026) Seven Sacred Names — Bandcamp (2021) Revelation: Music in Pure Intonation — Cantaloupe Music (2007) From Ancient Worlds — michaelharrison.com Time Loops with Maya Beiser — Cantaloupe Music (2012) Michael Harrison website Episode Music Michael Harrison — "Mureed" from Seven Sacred Names (2021, Cantaloupe Music) Michael Harrison — "Alim: Polyphonic Raga Malkauns" from Seven Sacred Names (2021, Cantaloupe Music) Michael Harrison — "Qadr: Etude in Raga Bhimpalasi" from Seven Sacred Names (2021, Cantaloupe Music) Hazrat Inayat Khan — "Purvi Khal: Kamli Wale Tope Sabkuchhvare" (2022, Primitiv) Michael Harrison – “Sami: The Acoustic Constellation” from Seven Sacred Names (2021, Cantaloupe Music) Hazrat Inayat Khan The Mysticism of Sound and Music — Goodreads Inayat Khan 1909 78rpm Recordings — YouTube Hazrat Inayat Khan — Wikipedia The Inayat Order — Pir Zia Inayat Khan Turning Toward the Heart — SAND Podcast with Pir Zia Inayat Khan Teachers & Lineage Pandit Pran Nath — Wikipedia La Monte Young — Wikipedia Terry Riley — Wikipedia Pir Vilayat Khan — Wikipedia Ustad Mashkoor Ali Khan — Wikipedia Other Composers & Artists Referenced Pauline Oliveros — Center for Deep Listening® — Michael Reiley's teacher; creator of Deep Listening practice Pauline Oliveros — paulineoliveros.us John Cage — Wikipedia — composer, Zen Buddhist, creator of 4'33" Arvo Pärt — Wikipedia Hildegard of Bingen — Wikipedia Ravi Shankar — Wikipedia George Harrison Concert for Bangladesh — YouTube Roomful of Teeth — website John Eliot Gardiner — Wikipedia Josquin des Prez — Wikipedia Claudio Monteverdi — Wikipedia J.S. Bach — Wikipedia Programs & Institutions Arts, Letters and Numbers — Creative Music Intensive Michael Harrison Foundation for Just Music — donations in his memory Manhattan School of Music — where the harmonic piano is now archived Contact SAND podcast@scienceandnonduality.com Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member

Tom Rath is a researcher and #1 NYT bestselling author of 12 books. His latest works are How Full Is Your Bucket? And What's the Point? Turning Purpose Into Your Daily Superpower. Greg and Tom discuss the broader arc of Tom's work, translating research on wellbeing, engagement, and strengths into practical tools. Tom describes shifting from self-improvement to “other-improvement,” using Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s question “What are you doing for others?” as a daily compass, and reframing purpose as an hour-by-hour “portfolio” rather than a single grand mission.  He contrasts purpose with passion, criticizes status and social-comparison traps, and argues that the responsibility for one's wellbeing largely rests with individuals because many employers and leaders model unhealthy, always-on habits themselves. Tom explains his concept of job/task/relationship/cognitive crafting, the primacy of relationships, and how AI increases the need to prioritize proactive, creative, human work over reactive tasks that are likely to be automated. *unSILOed Podcast is produced by University FM.* Episode Quotes: What's the point of any given hour in your day? 13:57: What's the point of any given hour in your day, and is it doing something that serves other people, makes a contribution to the world? Or is it something that kind of winds you up and gets you charged so you can be at your best for other people? Kind of just asking, the point of that is even more important now than it was 12 months ago because, as I've studied this and gotten more into all of the tools that are available at our disposal with AI right now, the things that can be automated and just require responding instead of thinking about something and initiating or creating, those are the things that are going to be eliminated most rapidly. So my mindset on this has changed a little bit in the last six months, even to say I think everybody needs to be a little more critical and ask some of those questions because if you're doing something that just involves pulling together some numbers or responding to some emails, that's not sustainable anymore. Your strengths don't make a difference in isolation 50:31: The point of uncovering your natural talents or pathways is not so that you can go out there and beat your strengths into the world and tell everybody about your strengths. The point of it is so you can be more systematic about engineering how you apply those strengths to serve your clients and your customers and your community and the people around you because your strengths don't make a darn bit of difference in isolation. They kind of come to life in the context of a relationship and of a purpose. Can you make purpose more practical? 11:52: Telling people that they need to go find some big grand purpose at any stage in their life may do more harm than good because it produces a level of anxiety where you're thinking it's something larger than it really is that you need to find, or it's one big thing. Versus, as you get into the work, I've found that if you treat purpose like something you do on an hour-by-hour basis, and it's multiple touch points throughout a day, and it's a way to restructure what you do and reprioritize your daily routine, that you can make purpose into something practical. And when you're able to do that, your day is a little more rewarding. Show Links: Recommended Resources: Eudaimonia Donald O. Clifton Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi Guest Profile: TomRath.org LinkedIn Profile Wikipedia Profile Facebook Profile Social Profile on X Guest Work: Amazon Author Page How Full Is Your Bucket? What's the Point? Turning Purpose Into Your Daily Superpower Strengths Finder 2.0 Strengths Based Leadership Life's Great Question: Discover How You Contribute To The World It's Not About You: A Brief Guide to a Meaningful Life Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

01. Max Styler, Vintage Culture, Ali Love - Freaky 1 02. Dubvision - Run 03. Fred Pellichero, Loors - EMMA 04. Welker - Tussy 05. Sophia Guerrero - It's A Baby 06. Andrey Exx - Wanna Give You 07. Wh0, Low Steppa - Raise Them 08. Versus, Albert Breaker, King Ro - Bottle Flip 09. John Dahlback - Hits Like This 10. Felguk, Watzgood - It Just Won't Do 11. Tony Romera - Waste My Time 12. Dubdogz, Deep West - Hole In The Head (Fool Girl) 13. Kiro Prime, Kenty Clide - Bounce It 14. Goom Gum - Imagine 15. Hugel, Kurd Maverick - PYHU (Put Your Hands Up) 16. Argy, John Cala - BOOM 17. Fedde Le Grand - This Is A Groove 18. Kryder - Time 19. Goodboys, Departamento - Discoteca 20. Wax Motif, Maeta - You Forget 21. DJ Quba, Sandra K, Ishnlv - Love Don't Let Me Go 22. Meduza, Varun Jain - Dola re Dola 23. Francis Mercier, Mp3, Shammalee - Inshallah 24. Betical - Do It Again 25. Wenzday - Keep On Dancin' 26. G-pol, Zss, Arta - Slick Like MJ 27. Don Diablo - Sound Of Da Police 28. Dannic - Tombo 2026 29. Steve Aoki, Jessica Audiffred, Jon Z - Fotopaparazzi 30. Adam Sellouk, Doriann - Carnage 31. Benny Benassi, Rafael Cerato - Can I Feel 32. Dimitri Vegas, Like Mike, Ne-yo, Danna Paola - Mexico 33. Agua Sin Gas, Antoine Clamaran - What You Do 34. Switch Disco, Korolova - Empty Skies 35. Ummet Ozcan - Iunu 36. Ferreck Dawn - Say What You Mean 37. Plastik Funk, Chester Young, Hackatone - Digital Safari 38. Sevek - Bad Girl

Introducing the All Def SquADD Cast show “Versus". It's a podcast with the OG SquADD! Each week, the SquADD will debate topics and vote at the end to see what wins. Versus airs every Monday and you can download and listen wherever podcasts are found.Special GuestKanisha BussCamille WatersJazmyn W.This Week We DiscussSee How Long Everyone Has Left To Live vs See Lines Connecting Everyone Who's Hooked Up?Beef W/ US Government vs Illuminati Paper Straws vs 1 Ply Toilet TissueS/o To Our SponorsBlue ChewRight now, when you buy two months of BlueChew Gold, you get the third for FREE with promo code SQUADD. That's promo code SQUADD. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information, and we thank BlueChew for sponsoring the podcast.

Die neueste Episode unseres Premium-Formats The Round-Up präsentieren wir ausnahmsweise frei und gratis für alle Devils & Demons Zuhörenden. So könnt ihr mal in unser facettenreiches Supporter-Programm reinschnüffeln, ohne Risiko. In unserem 10. Round-Up besprechen wir (Chris, André, Teresa) die Filme Psycho Killer, Invisible Maniac, Undertone, Bone Lake, Versus, The Furious, Marco, Faces of Death und Cannibal Mukbang in gewohnt charmanter und freier Art. Wenn euch das Format gefällt und ihr auf den Geschmack gekommen seid, unterstützt uns gerne auf Steady, natürlich nur, wenn euch der finanzielle Rahmen dafür gegeben ist.

Ever feel like money is disappearing from your practice? Tiff and Dana share where practices tend to find that missing money, as well as how to trim down those expenses. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. I always want to say on that opening, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com and I have to really think about it. Hello, Dental A Team listeners. We are back here. Dana and I have been on a podcasting frenzy we love these days and then we're like out of breath and I also love that because it feels like productive and anaerobic. So I'll take it. I've got Dana here with us today. Dana, thank you so much for riffing with me today, for being here, for blocking out your morning, for podcasting and just   All awesome, awesome. Thank you for being an awesome part of this team. We were literally just talking about how my brain just is like ping pong, ping pong, and then I won't finish a statement. That was it. That was me proving to you that that really happens real life. So, and don't cut that podcast team, whatever. Dana, how are you today?   DAT-Dana (00:38) you   doing really good. am honestly and truly, I feel like today we've rift a lot and we've come up with some really great, I think, content ideas for doctors and teams. And so, so far, I'm super proud of us today.   The Dental A Team (01:01) I agree. I agree. think the marketing one, if you guys haven't listened to the marketing matters, I believe that's what they're calling it. But there's a marketing one that Dana and I just did. I actually, I think that was one of our best podcasts. That was so good. So good. And KPIs again, I know we talk about KPIs a lot, but we really went on a very good tangent of inspiration versus motivation for those KPIs. So I agree. I think it's been fun. And I love talking profit now.   Dana, I think you and I have grown to love profit. Not that we didn't love profit before, but I think we've grown to really, really see some high value in the profit side and just love finding it and talking about it more than we ever did before. So I want to talk about profit today. And we talked about it a lot. It's a huge piece of Dental A Team's Magic Sauce is really, really working systems and   logistics and business and leadership to turn into profit because at the end of the day, that's the only way the business is going to survive. And Dana, when we talk about profit, think teams tend to be like, okay. And I think doctors think teams hate it, that they don't want to hear about it, that they don't want to know that it's like, yeah, that's going in your pocket. But the reality is most teams want to know that their business is profitable because most teams   want a place to work, if nothing else. They want a profitable company because it guarantees that they get to stay where they're at. And if you guys have, you know, we talked about that inspiring why earlier, and if you've got a really inspiring place, you've got a place that people want to work, they want you to be profitable so that they can keep working there.   DAT-Dana (02:44) I agree with you. And doctors, if you feel like your team doesn't care about profit, then it's because they don't understand what profit means to them. And so I think that instead of so often, doctors just shy away from it. And I think instead of shying away from it, make sure that they know what that profit means to them. Because Tiff and I can say, hey, we know and hands down, you're right, Tiff, like people are going to pick job security, right? They're going to want to be in an office that has job security. Do they know that that's profit? Probably not.   The Dental A Team (03:09) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (03:13) Right? And so somebody says something about that or like that. Do they want to grow in their position? Yep, they probably do. Do they know that that comes from profit? Maybe not. And so I think sometimes it's just like, hey, my team. Well, if your team doesn't want to talk about profit or you think they don't care, it's probably just because they don't understand that profit drastically impacts their lives too.   The Dental A Team (03:35) Totally agree. That was massive, massive. And that's the space of really understanding the intentionality behind what you're doing. So if you intend for the team to understand profit, then they will. You'll say the words and they'll understand it. profit turns into not only job security, but it also turns into being able to invest in more tech, more, I don't know, chairs. Oh my gosh, do know how many times as a front office team member I was like, can I just get a new chair? My back hurts so bad.   And they were like, well, let's look at the budget. I'm like, cool, what do I have to do to get a new chair? But those things all come from that profit because we can't spend what we don't have. And so teams really understanding what that turns into and also like how can we impact the community? We've got kids sports teams coming in saying, can you ⁓ sponsor our team? Can you do night guards? Can you do this? Like we wanna be able to say yes to all of those things and that comes from the profit.   Now you know our stance on profit, but Dina, what about disappearing profit? I've had actually, I've had this come up a couple of times. I've had a couple of emails from doctors that they're like, I can't find the money from 2025. I don't know where it went. I should have had X amount of dollars, 400, $600,000 and it's gone. I'm like, okay, well let's look for it. And Dina...   Love those and I hate them because I'm like, well, what do we do for a year? Where what were we doing here? Okay, so I have you know, I have my ideas on where it goes and and we dig and we find it we usually find it but Dana Where do you see the biggest question marks on when doctors say where's the profit? Like where the biggest question marks? Where do you start digging and where are you usually finding it?   DAT-Dana (05:01) Yeah, it usually leads to a rabbit hole, but...   Yeah, typically I am digging first and foremost into just like expenses, right? Like where did expenses fluctuate? Did we spend more than we needed to or did we spend in arbitrary areas just because we weren't keeping track of it? So honestly and truly, do you know what your BAM is and can you assess very easily or quickly like months where it is?   well below well above right so that you can kind of watch those flexes. just worked with an office on this not that long ago and I'm like hey from January to March expenses swung by $100,000 right like what happened let's dig in here because those giant fluctuations to me are a red flag of like hey we're not watching something or something got overcharged double charged things like that so I think the first place to tackle is just like knowing those things like knowing what   the profit should be, knowing what the expenses should be and are you, do you have a cadence where you are looking, reviewing? Because I think what happens is we hire a CPA, we get into QuickBooks, everything auto syncs into QuickBooks and we just kind of like set it and forget it.   And I think that like we don't know that sometimes hey things can swing that Gigantically if we're not looking at those things and we're not looking at those prior to making decisions, right? We're not looking those before we're like, hey, yeah, you can have a raise or hey Yeah, I want that cvct writer. Yep. Let's it's time to mill same-day crowns and we didn't look at that now We're in a big swing of expenses   The Dental A Team (06:51) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (06:52) So I do feel like making sure that all of that is to say, making sure that you know what your numbers are when it comes to expenses every month where they should sit roughly and honestly and truly what you're spending all your money on.   The Dental A Team (07:06) Yeah, I have practices Dana that have Amazon Prime. I think everybody has Amazon Prime. My sister and I canceled Amazon Prime actually, and we just have Amazon, which is wild. And every time you try to purchase something, they try to sign you up for Amazon Prime. But it's kind of like, it honestly reminds me of all of the financial stuff you've done with all of the companies we don't have to name. But ⁓ it reminds me of those because you really second guess the purchase.   And then you're like, okay, well, let me let it sit in the cart for a minute. And then you go back in, you're like, why did I even have this here? Or I'll throw stuff in the safe for later because I'm like, well, it's not on sale right now. And I'm not gonna get it today. So do I really need it? So I'll put it in the safe for later. But I have practices that are so Amazon Prime ready that they're like, we need paper. I'll just order it real quick.   we need pens. you like those pens better? You like the Sharpie pens? I'll order those on Amazon real quick and we'll have them here tomorrow. Right? So they're just constantly processing these Amazon orders. And then what happens, I have a practice that was like Amazon galore. I'm like, where is all of this money? Like what is happening here? And then what happens is you've got some demo supplies, some front office supplies. It's impossible to like see the difference because of how you're placing the orders. It's just this constant running battle or Walmart. I'll have   practices that are like, we have a list. So I just sent Joanna to Walmart and I'm like, okay, but why aren't these on orders? And we say, we watch the dental supply budget and ordering really closely. And we'll say order two times a month. Once is phenomenal, two times a month max order your dental supplies.   but then we forget those front office supplies and they're sneaky or the paper towels or the toilet paper or just those like paper supplies, they're sneaky. And I have seen that happen where the practice literally had to be like, okay, we're revoking Amazon and you're gonna send in a list just like you do for dental office supplies. And we will both order the same as we do for dental office supplies.   DAT-Dana (09:08) Yeah, you're so funny that I have an office where it was like, okay, well, you hit your you hit your dental supplies, you hit your office supply budgets. But like, what is this? ⁓ that's Amazon. And I'm like, Okay, but what did we order from Amazon? Like, how much of that was dental supplies, office supplies, like stuff for the team? Like, where do we need to that? then I know that's just Amazon. I'm like, No, but that's money spent. And it's spent in one of these categories. And it should be part of your budget for those guys. Like   If you need an Amazon budget, right? If that has to be a thing, fine, we can set one up, but understand that that's coming out of all these other buckets.   The Dental A Team (09:40) Crap.   Correct,   yes. Or if your Amazon is your personal Amazon too, and it's getting run through the same and whatever. Yes, I agree. I agree. I have a couple of practices too that I have like a small equipment budget because they'll add that into their supplies. And it's like their supplies are 18 % one month. And I'm like, what the heck? I'm like, you can't just, if you need hand pieces.   We need a budget for handpieces. You can't just order Cabotron tips because we need Cabotron tips. We've got to look at it and we've got to budget that in and make sure that we have the cash for it. So I totally agree. Another one, think, are subscriptions. So the Amazon Prime is a subscription, so make sure that that's in there as well. But we get hit with a lot of subscriptions. I remember this is like an update.   me mostly, but I remember magazine subscriptions, right? And it was like, what the heck? We would pay monthly for magazine subscriptions and then you found out like they're gonna send them to you anyway, so cancel the subscriptions and they're gonna send you the magazines no matter what and I don't think anybody's reading magazines. So those kind of subscriptions, gosh, a lot of people will have like a Uber Eats subscription for the practice or a DoorDash subscription for the practice. Are those necessary subscriptions?   And what are we paying out of convenience that's getting used sometimes that doesn't need to be there? So I think subscriptions and then allocating supply orders correctly.   DAT-Dana (11:05) Yeah, and I even think office tech subscriptions too, like how, you know, patient communication and then like review requests and then, and sometimes like we can bundle those and get a better dealer. Sometimes it's like, hey, well, this does this, but this also does part of that. And like, we're just overlapping a lot of those things. And so can we condense them into one thing? So I think even just looking at like your office tech, because oftentimes like those are a big chunk of budgets and I'm like, Hey, but are you utilizing that? Like, yes, you've got this, you've got this   The Dental A Team (11:09) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (11:33) review subscription, is great. But like if we're asking in person and we don't feel like, I just think sometimes we have these things just because they sound fantastic, but we're only using a very, like a small fraction of it. And there's oftentimes a workaround on that small fraction that like, again, we can just reduce because we don't necessarily, we aren't using it consistently or it overlaps with something else that we have.   The Dental A Team (11:46) I agree with that.   Totally agree. That makes me think of like some of the analytics companies, you know, high cost that also have patient communications, right? So, but then we've got a patient communication platform, like maybe Weave or something. We're like, well, but like Weave doesn't connect with this piece well, or it doesn't pull this report, right? So we have this one that's pulling the reports, Weave that I can do text messages and emails from. So I don't use it over here, but I don't use that over here. And we're paying thousands of dollars between two.   two models, well, is there a third model that maybe encompasses both or can we, what can we shift around? So I totally agree. That happens a lot actually. Or people will have the dental intel or the Adit. love Adit. So they'll have Adit and they're like, okay, well I get my reports and I can pull all my data. Should I sign up with whatever company for text messaging? And I'm like, well, what Adit does that.   DAT-Dana (12:34) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   The Dental A Team (12:56) Right, like most of the analytic companies these days, it wasn't that way. When I was in practice, it wasn't that way. So it's been pretty recent within the last, I would say three to five years that the analytics companies started piecing all of those things together or vice versa. The communication systems are now doing analytics too. So I think they don't know, but it's a huge space of savings, especially because those analytics, they're expensive.   DAT-Dana (13:19) Yeah, I agree with you. And, and all those platforms are great. It's just which one works best for you. And which one will you get the most bang out of for what you're paying in that monthly subscription? Because yes, they all do the same thing, but yet also a variety of other things. And so like which package best fits your office. And I think just even annually assessing that and annually looking at your tech bundles and like, are we utilizing it? Is it a better platform? Because they're all fantastic platforms. It's just what you're going to use within your practice.   The Dental A Team (13:25) cracks.   Totally agree. It's like the cable subscriptions, right? We used to get hit with those with the wifi and the cable and the phone and these bundles. And the next thing you know, you're $30 more and you didn't even realize that it had changed. I totally agree with you. Yeah. So subscriptions, supply costs, something that I find. And I think a lot of people tackle this one first. They'll look at like employee costs. So what's my staff cost? And totally yes. Watch for overtime. I also like to caveat.   Overtime typically means that there's a systems failure because we should be able to get the work that we need done and the amount of time that we have. And so, Dana, I often see overtime as understaffed or incorrectly staffed. maybe our job descriptions aren't clear. Maybe there's someone that's doing everything. Everybody else is leaving at 4 p.m.   when the patients are gone and then that person's there till six cleaning things up. So over time, definitely, I definitely watch that and I look at staff costs, but it honestly is one of the last places that I look because we need the people there to produce what we're producing. And then, ⁓ Dana, taxes, taxes. You guys, I have a practice that I love so much. I have got a two or three practices this year that is like, my gosh, where'd the money go? And I'm like, well, you...   had $600,000 of taxes last year that you paid for 2024, and then you also paid your 2025 taxes. So you made up for what you were lacking the year before. But remember that auto email that I've got going out, or remember how many times we talked about, did you put the savings aside for your taxes? If you put the savings aside for your taxes and you paid out of that savings, it is still going to show up on your P &L. That does not mean that that money is gone. It just means that it was used over here.   and you should still be saving for your taxes. But Dana, I think that is one of the biggest spaces that doctors or business owners in general, because I've seen even, we've worked with non dental offices that they quote unquote lose their money because they had to pay taxes.   DAT-Dana (15:55) Yeah, and I will say too, an even something that I think I noticed in a trend in that is like taxes on their personal distribution, right? Because it's like, ⁓ I pay payroll taxes and and like they know they have to pay business taxes, right? But depending on how they structure paying themselves, we kind of forget that we   The Dental A Team (16:05) ⁓ yes, yes.   DAT-Dana (16:15) to pay taxes on our own personal distributions or how we pay ourselves because, for team and all those, they're just like auto deductions and auto things that come out on our P &L and we see our pay, right? We see our pay come out, but what we don't see come out and we sometimes forget is that we are taxed on the money that we pay ourselves. So doctors, that's just like also I see that.   The Dental A Team (16:16) Yes. Yep.   Yep.   DAT-Dana (16:38) having a lot, but it's like, oh, well, I was prepared for taxes, but we forgot. Like, yes, we were prepared for the business taxes, but we weren't really prepared for the taxes on our personal income that came from the practice.   The Dental A Team (16:50) Yes, or vice versa. Karen and I were literally just talking about this on Friday, we went for a walk after summit and she was like, gosh, like CPAs, like just need CPAs to like get it all. And I'm like, well, I think CPAs are either like thinking of the business or they're thinking of your personal taxes. And it kind of, does suck, but you can't rely on one person or one entity to do it all for you. You know, you've got, we've got multiple people looking at it and you've got to be responsible to your money. So a lot of CPAs are like,   you know, yes, you've got your personal taken care of. And then you get hit with $400,000 of business taxes. Or they're like, awesome, we've got your business taxes taken care of. And here's your $200,000 of your personal taxes. And that's like, no matter what, something's going to come up short. So just know, this is what I need to save for. I'm going to save 40 % on the side. And if I don't have to pay 40%, cool. I've got savings for next year, or go spend it. I don't care what you do with it, but you've   you've prepped and you've saved for those taxes because that is the biggest space. Legitimately, I have an office that was missing X amount of dollars. And when we looked at the tax payments, it was X amount of dollars. It literally equaled out. It's like there was your profit because you weren't prepped for those 2025 taxes. Now it's 2026. You know, we're we're backlogging. So, yep.   DAT-Dana (18:06) Yeah. And I think we   hire like we bring on CPAs, we bring on financial advisors, we bring on all these things, but the end of the day, like they don't know you as a human. And so it's your responsibility to to like share like what kind of human you are with them. And so like if they're setting up that you take individual distributions, and you know that like, if money gets tight, you're not going to sit that aside, and you're not going to put it in a savings account for taxes, like, say that I think that sometimes like   The Dental A Team (18:31) Yeah.   DAT-Dana (18:32) Yes, they're going to give you advice based on like what our best practices or what they feel like will set you up for the most tax savings or the most tax success. But you know you as a person too. And if you know that you're not a great saver, maybe a personal distribution really and honestly and truly isn't the best thing for you, even if that's what they advise. So I think also to like know yourself, be able to communicate those things and make sure that the advice that they're giving you or the directions that they're giving you is something that you will truly do too.   The Dental A Team (18:50) Totally.   Yeah, I totally agree with you. Totally. we can't see. Maybe they can. But that's not their job to check and see did you move that money. I know a financial advisor that gets asked a lot that they're like, well, shouldn't my savings be those? He's like, I don't know. I don't know what you're doing with your savings. I advise you on what you should do. I'm not the one that's moving the money. I'm not your money manager.   And so we do the same thing. We advise you on what you should be doing, but I'm not in your accounts nor do I want to be in your accounts seeing what you're actually doing. I'm trusting that you're taking the advice and you're moving forward. And when I ask, did you do the thing and you say yes, I'm trusting that you did it. So huge caveat, I love that. And then honestly, last but not least, and this is why I do not tackle employee cost first is collections.   Oh my gosh, I have so many practices that are like, Tiff, where's my cashflow? And we look at it and I'm like, well, where are your KPIs? Because your collections right now is less than 90%. Like where, where's that? And your month's fluctuating is going to, can create cashflow like month by month stretches, like a little skimping here or overflow here. But on average, you should be at 90 % or higher collections. And Dana?   I think collections is a very overlooked space when it comes to the P &L because we're thinking they don't think about the collections. They just think about, okay, this is my P &L and it's like it's a separate entity. At that point, they get the P &L and it's totally separate from the practice. Like that doesn't, the practice doesn't matter anymore. This is the P &L, but they have to be smashed together.   DAT-Dana (20:20) Yeah.   Yeah, they do. I think too, like collections, feel like doctors always tend to just like look at production because it's the one thing they can control, right? It's it's the thing that they can really control, tackle, push for. And so I feel like that's a number that they look at heavily. And then I think collections, right? Yes, which doctors understand that collections is the money in the bank, right? I think we understand that concept, but we don't necessarily look at the health.   The Dental A Team (20:44) Yeah. Yep.   DAT-Dana (21:02) of the collections within the practice. And you're absolutely right that like, can we cut all over time? Can we look at team and say, look, no more over time, right? But if the overtime is what they were using to get the collections to 98%, right? Versus 87 % without it, right? Then maybe that's not the thing that we've got to tackle. We've got to look at that collections network.   The Dental A Team (21:18) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   DAT-Dana (21:26) Or we can say, like, yeah, we can cut our supply budget and you can take a supply budget from 6 % to 5%. But is that gonna move the needle as much as taking your collections from 85 to 98?   The Dental A Team (21:33) Pressure.   Correct. I love that. with that, go look at your collections. That was massive, Dana. Thank you. I love when I can get you on a soapbox and you're like, just go do the thing. And that was beautiful. Thank you. So disappearing profit, is a thing. Not having cash flow, it is a thing. Is it normal? Normal? Like, yeah, we see it. Is it what you should have? No, no. You should know your numbers forwards and backwards. If you're at summit.   You know that if you were not at Summit, you should be at our virtual events. They're freaking awesome. Our in-person events are amazing. We literally go through line item, PNLs at most of our in-person events for this reason, because there's always just something hidden. There's just like when you comb through your personal bank account and you're like, my gosh, or when you use Apple credit card to pay for everything. And then you're like, my gosh, now I got to pay my credit card off. And how did I spend $2,000 this month? Because it was easy.   It's easy to say yes to Amazon Prime and just order it right now instead of waiting and saving. So go through, comb through. You should do this quarterly. Make sure that at least yearly, I would do it quarterly. Make sure that things make sense. There's nothing that's been hidden in there. There's nothing that's orders are duplicated. There's not subscriptions that you shouldn't have and that your collections, you should be looking at that constantly. And you should be looking at that with your KPI.   reports, your scorecards with your consultant. If you're a client of ours and you don't know what I'm talking about, get on your consultant because you should. Especially Dana and I's clients. If you're out there, we love you and you just let us know. I think.   Action items, pull your P &L. It's where out of Q1, you've got a whole quarter to look at, you've got a quarter and then some at this point to look at, and we're coming up on the end of Q2, so it comes up really quickly. Go look at it, look to see, are there things that you can bundle? Or do you have a bunch of subscriptions that, you know, you've got multiple different companies overlapping that you can use one or two rather than five? Are you using the scanner that you're paying the monthly subscription for? Are you using all the things that you're paying for?   Is there anything that you can reduce and what is your collections at? If you can say yes, you've done both of those things and your collections is where it should be. Now we're going to take a look at, is your schedule full? There's so many layers. Like we're going to take a look now at production, team, like really how big is your team and do you have enough production to support the team that you have? So Dana, anything you'd like to add?   DAT-Dana (24:10) this, I think just like you said, know those numbers inside and out, look at these things regularly, evaluate expenses on a quarterly basis, ⁓ and take a look at those subscriptions because they can hit us hard as well as those taxes.   The Dental A Team (24:26) They're sneaky. Both of those are sneaky. Awesome. Thank you, Dana. All right, everyone, go leave us a five star review. You know, we love to see those. We love to know that this content was awesome for you. Let us know any tricks or tips that you have as well or things that are working well for you. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. When you're ready, if you are not yet a client and you're ready to find that disappearing profit, reach out. You guys, we are like hounds when it comes to this stuff and really freaking good at our jobs. So the systems behind the numbers and the systems behind the money,   We will help you figure out what's working, what's not working and get you in the best shape of your life. Dana, thank you so much for today and everyone, we will catch you next time.

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From building Applied Intuition from YC-era autonomy tooling into a $15B physical AI company, Qasar Younis and Peter Ludwig have spent the last decade living through the full arc of autonomy: from simulation and data infrastructure for robotaxi companies, to operating systems for safety-critical machines, to deploying AI onto cars, trucks, mining equipment, construction vehicles, agriculture, defense systems, and driverless L4 trucks running in Japan today. They join us to explain why “physical AI” is not just LLMs on wheels, why the real bottleneck is no longer model intelligence but deployment onto constrained hardware, and why the future of autonomy may look less like one-off demos and more like Android for every moving machine.We discuss:* Applied Intuition's mission: building physical AI for a safer, more prosperous world, powering cars, trucks, construction and mining equipment, agriculture, defense, and other moving machines* Why physical AI is different from screen-based AI: learned systems can make mistakes in chat or coding, but safety-critical machines like driverless trucks, autonomous vehicles, and robots need much higher reliability* The evolution from autonomy tooling to a broad physical AI platform: starting with simulation and data infrastructure for robotaxi companies, then expanding into 30+ products across simulation, operating systems, autonomy, and AI models* Why tooling companies came back into fashion: Qasar on why developer tooling looked unfashionable in 2016, why Applied Intuition still bet on it, and how the AI boom made workflows and tools central again* The three core buckets of Applied Intuition's technology: simulation and RL infrastructure, true operating systems for vehicles and machines, and fundamental AI models for autonomy and world understanding* Why vehicles need a real AI operating system: real-time control, sensor streaming, latency, memory management, fail-safes, reliable updates, and why “bricking a car” is much worse than bricking an iPad* Physical machines as “phones before Android and iOS”: Peter explains why today's vehicle and machine software stack is fragmented across many operating systems, and why Applied Intuition wants to consolidate the platform layer* Coding agents inside Applied Intuition: Cursor, Claude Code, internal adoption leaderboards, and how AI tools are changing engineering workflows even in embedded systems and safety-critical software* Verification and validation for physical AI: why evals get harder as models improve, how end-to-end autonomy changes simulation requirements, and why neural simulation has to be fast and cheap enough to make RL practical* From deterministic tests to statistical safety: why autonomy validation is shifting from binary pass/fail requirements toward “how many nines” of reliability and mean time between failures* Cruise, Waymo, and public trust: Qasar and Peter discuss why autonomy failures are not just technical issues, how companies interact with regulators, and why Waymo is setting a high bar for the industry* Simulation vs. reality: why no simulator perfectly represents the real world, how sim-to-real validation works, and why real-world testing will never disappear* World models for physical AI: hydroplaning, construction equipment, visual cues, cause-and-effect learning, and where world models help versus where they are not enough* Onboard vs. offboard AI: why data-center models can be huge and slow, but onboard vehicle models need millisecond-level latency, low power, small size, and distillation-like efficiency* Why physical AI is not constrained by model intelligence alone: the hard part is deploying models onto real hardware, under safety, latency, power, cost, and reliability constraints* Legacy autonomy vs. intelligent autonomy: RTK GPS in mining and agriculture, why hand-coded path-following worked for decades, and why modern systems need perception and dynamic intelligence* Planning for physical systems: how “plan mode” applies to robotaxis, mining, defense, and multi-step physical tasks where actions change the state of the world* Why robotics demos are not production: the brittle last 1%, humanoid reliability, DARPA Grand Challenge-style prize policy, and the advanced engineering gap between research and deployment* Applied Intuition's hard-earned lessons: after nearly a decade, Peter says they can look at a robotics demo and predict the next 20 problems the company will hit* Qasar's advice to founders: constrain the commercial problem, avoid copying mature-company strategies too early, and remember that compounding technology only matters if you survive long enough to see it compound* Why 2014 YC advice may not apply in 2026: capital markets, AI company dynamics, and the difference between building in stealth with a deep network versus building as a new founder today* What Applied is hiring for: operating systems, autonomy, dev tooling, model performance, evals, safety-critical systems, hardware/software boundaries, and engineers with deep curiosity about how things workApplied Intuition:* YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@AppliedIntuitionInc* X: https://x.com/AppliedInt* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/applied-intuition-incQasar Younis:* X: https://x.com/qasar* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/qasar/Peter Ludwig:* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterwludwig/Timestamps00:00:00 Introduction: Applied Intuition, Physical AI, and 10 Years of Building00:01:37 Physical AI vs. Screen AI: Why Safety-Critical Changes Everything00:02:51 The Origin Story: Tooling, YC, and the Scale AI Comparison00:05:41 The Three Buckets: Simulation, Operating Systems, and Autonomy Models00:11:10 Hardware, Sensors, and the LiDAR Question00:14:26 The Operating System Layer: Why Vehicles Are Like Pre-Android Phones00:19:13 Customers, Licensing, and the Better-Together Stack00:21:19 AI Coding Adoption: Cursor, Claude Code, and the Bimodal Engineer00:26:41 Verifiable Rewards, Evals, and Neural Simulation00:31:04 Statistical Validation, Regulators, and the Cruise Lesson00:40:25 World Models, Hydroplaning, and Cause-Effect Learning00:43:34 Onboard vs. Offboard: Latency, Embedded ML, and Distillation00:50:57 Plan Mode for Physical Systems and Next-Token Prediction Universally00:53:04 Productionization: The 20 Problems Every Robotics Demo Will Hit00:58:00 Founder Advice: Constraints, Compounding Tech, and Mature-Company Mimicry01:05:41 Hiring Philosophy: Hardware/Software Boundary and Engineering Mindset01:08:50 General Motors Institute, Education, and the Curiosity MindsetTranscriptIntroduction: Applied Intuition, Physical AI, and 10 Years of BuildingAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, founder of Kernel Labs, and I'm joined by Swyx, editor of Latent Space.Swyx [00:00:10]: And today we're very honored to have the founders of Applied Intuition, Qasar and Peter. Welcome.Qasar [00:00:17]: You guys really know how to turn it on to podcast mode. That was, you guys are real pros at this.Qasar [00:00:23]: They were just joking around right before this, and then they flipped it pretty quick.Alessio [00:00:29]: Oh, yeah, it's good to have you guys. Maybe you just wanna introduce yourself so people know the voice on the mic and they'll know what they're hearing.Peter [00:00:33]: Oh, sure. Yeah, I'm Peter Ludwig. I'm the co-founder and CTO of Applied Intuition.Qasar [00:00:38]: And my name is Qasar Younis. I am the CEO and co-founder with Peter.Alessio [00:00:42]: Nice. Can you guys give the high-level overview of what Applied Intuition is? And I was reading through some of the Congress files, when you went out there, Peter, and eighteen of the top twenty global non-Chinese automakers, you two guys, you have customers in agriculture, defense, construction. I think most people have heard of Applied Intuition tied to YC when it was first started, and then you were kinda in stealth for a long time, so maybe just give people the high-level overview of what it is today, and then we'll dive into the different pieces.Peter [00:01:10]: Yeah. So at Applied Intuition, our mission is to build physical AI for a safer, more prosperous world. And so we work on physical AI for all different types of moving systems, everything from cars to trucks to construction and mining equipment, to defense technologies. And we're a true technology company, so we build and sell the technology, and we sell it to the companies that make the machines. We sell it to the government, really anyone that wants to buy a technology to make machines smart.Physical AI vs. Screen AI: Why Safety-Critical Changes EverythingQasar [00:01:38]: Yeah. And I think in the broader AI landscape, a lot of the focus, rightfully so in the last, three years has been on large language models, and so everything fits in a screen. Like, whether it's code complete products or things like that. And what's different about us is we're deploying intelligence onto a lot of things that don't have screens. they're physical machines. There are sometimes screens within the cabin or for example of a car or a truck or something like that, but most of the value we provide is putting intelligence that is in safety critical environments. So that those two words are really important because learn systems can make mistakes if you're asking for, like, some, so something like, “Tell me about these podcast hostsQasar [00:02:28]: that I'm about to go meet.” But you can't do that obviously when you run, like, as an example, we run driverless trucks in Japan right now, as we speak. We can't have errors. Those are L4 trucks. Yeah.Alessio [00:02:40]: Yeah. Was that always the mission? I remember initially, I think people put you and Scale AI very similarly for some things about being kinda like on the data infrastructure side of things. What was the evolution of the company?The Origin Story: Tooling, YC, and the Scale AI ComparisonPeter [00:02:51]: Well, from the very beginning, we always wanted to, really be a technology company that helped generally push forward the industrial sector. And so we started off working in autonomy. Our very first customers were robotaxi companies. And we started off doing a lot of work in simulation and data infrastructure. And then over the years, we've expanded our portfolios. Now we have, over thirty products, and it's a pretty broad technology play within the landscape of physical AI.Qasar [00:03:19]: Yeah, I think the Scale reason is because we're all YC Universe companies. But it was a very different company. Scale, was, is more of a services company, data labeling company fundamentally. We started and still are, do a lot of tooling. So like, you think developer tooling is now in vogue again, thanks to the AI boom. But honestly, ten years ago, it was out of vogue. It w Like, doing a tooling company in 2016, 2017 was not, like, the thing to do because, I don't know if you remember, the VCs generally, their views was that toolings are They're just workflows, and workflows ultimately are not really interesting. And we've gone and come, full circle with that. But when we started the company, our kind of it's kinda like in the periphery of what the company wants to be. It was like, from our earliest days, like, we wanna deploy software on physical machines, like on cars and on trucks and things like that. And obviously, we didn't know that the transformer boom was gonna happen. We didn't know that autonomy systems would become end-to-end. Those things we didn't know. And why that's important when autonomy systems become end-to-end, it is just now those models can be generalized to, multiple form factors. And so back nine, ten years ago, tooling was a great way, and still is a great way to, build the technology and sell technology to our end customers, a lot of them who wanna build this stuff themselves. And so we just offer like a spectrum of solutions from you can just use like one part of a development suite of tools all the way to buying the full thing. The way to think about the company, or at least the way we think about the company is, as Peter said, a technology provider. It's kinda like, what NVIDIA does or what an AMD, but we just don't do chips.Qasar [00:05:06]: We don't do silicon. But we're a technology provider fundamentally. And I think even, we used to joke when we started the company, like, we're not the guys to build, like, Instagram. Like that was just towards That's not our That's just not us in a most fundamental way. IAlessio [00:05:20]: You have thoughts.Qasar [00:05:21]: Yes.Qasar [00:05:22]: Well, it's, it's I mean, I think it's just like what And I mean, we worked on Maps and stuff, Google Maps. Consumer products are extremely difficult for a lot of different reasons. It just, I think doesn't scratch the itch. I think we're like Michigan guys who are kind of more of that traditional engineering kind of a realm, or lineage. we used to jokeThe Three Buckets: Simulation, Operating Systems, and Autonomy ModelsPeter [00:05:41]: I gotta say, though, what was clear ten years ago was that there was so much more that was possible with software and AI in vehiclesPeter [00:05:47]: and that was generally the space that we started in ten years ago.Peter [00:05:51]: And the precise path that we've taken over the years, I think we've been strategic, and we've adjusted to make sure that we're actually building stuff that's valuable to the market. And like, the technology has changed so much. Like our own technology stack has completely changed, I would say, roughly every two years. And so now we've probably done, let's say, four complete evolutions of our own technology stack. And I sort of see that cadence roughly keeping up.Peter [00:06:13]: And so the way even we think about engineering is almost on this two-year horizon, we're preparing ourselves that, hey, like, we wanna invest the appropriate amount, but then also be very dynamic as the research gets published and as our research team figures out new advancements and adapting to that.Qasar [00:06:27]: Yeah. One thing that has been consistent is the type of people we've, we've recruited. It's engineers who are fall into the sometimes very traditional, like, GoogleQasar [00:06:38]: -gen suite, but way different from, other companies. We are hiring folks who really know the intersection of hardware and software, who know really low-level systems. Obviously, traditional ML researchers and folks who've, actually, put ML systems into production. That's been pretty consistent. I think that, like, you look at the mix of our engineering, eighty-three percent of the company is engineering, so it's, like, a giant list.Qasar [00:07:05]: A lot of engineers.Alessio [00:07:06]: Which, by the way, a thousand engineersQasar [00:07:07]: Yeah. A thousand engineers.Alessio [00:07:08]: that's on your website, so I imagine it's up to date.Qasar [00:07:11]: It is, it is up to date, yes. Yes.Alessio [00:07:12]: okay. And then forty-plus founders.Qasar [00:07:15]: Yeah. We would tend to also, This was more luck than strategy. But we've recruited a lot of ex-founders. It's been a great place for founders, YC and non, ‘cause obviously I know a lot of the YC folks. It's kind of like we recruit a lot of Google people.Qasar [00:07:33]: For them to exercise both their technical and non-technical skills because, we're, we're, we're on the applied side. We have a research team that we do fundamental research, we publish, and we've, we've had great traction there. But fundamentally, the business wants to take this intelligence and deploy it into production and there's, like, a certain type of person that's more interested in that.Alessio [00:07:54]: Yeah. You mentioned the tech stack, Peter, so I just wanted to give you some rein to just go into it. I'm interested in where Wayve Nutrition, starts and ends in some sense, what won't you do? What, do you do that's common among all the verticals that you cover?Peter [00:08:10]: There's a few buckets of work that we do, and we've been at this for almost ten years now, so the technology's pretty broad. But we got startedQasar [00:08:17]: Yeah, with a thousand engineers, like, you could work on lots of things.Peter [00:08:19]: There's lots of stuff, yeah, espe-especially with AI tools to help.Peter [00:08:22]: So we got our start in simulation and simulation tooling and infrastructure. And so generally, if you're trying to build a very complex software system that involves moving machines, you need to test that, and the best way to test it is it's a combination of virtual developments, a simulation, and then also obviously real world testing.Peter [00:08:39]: And then there's a very careful process of that correlation between the simulation results and the real world results and ensuring that the simulator is in fact accurate to that. Simulation's a very deep topic.Peter [00:08:49]: We have a whole suite of products in that, and we could talk for many hours about that specifically. But that is one part of what we do as a company. Reinforcement learning as a subpart of that is also super critical. I think a lot of the a lot of the best advancements happening in a lot of these AI systems right now in some way relate to reinforcement learning, and with now we have lots of compute, and you can do tons of interesting things for reinforcement learning. The second bucket of work that we do is on operating systems technology. true operating systems. Like, think about, schedulers and memory management and middleware and message passing and highly reliable networking and data links. Like, the reality is, if you want to deploy AI onto vehicles, you need a really good operating system. And when we were getting deeper into that space, there wasn't really anything that we were happy with.Peter [00:09:39]: Like, things existed, absolutely, and we were using what was available in the market, and as an engineering organization, we roughly realized these things aren't great. We think we can do this better, and so let's, let's build something. And that was then the that was the moment of inspiration that started our operating systems business, which is now a very real business for us. And in order to write and run great AI, you need a great operating system, and so that-that's what got us into that. And then the third bucket that we work on, it's, it's true fundamental AI technology. Models, we do a lot of work in, as mentioned, the foundational research, but then the also the world models and the actual autonomy models that are running on these physical machines, and that's across cars, trucks, mining, construction, agriculture, and defense, and so that's both land, air, and sea.Qasar [00:10:31]: And also, a smaller subsector of that third bucket is the interaction of humans with those machines.Qasar [00:10:38]: So that's a multimodal, experience. Historically, if you're moving a dirt mover or any of these machines, there are, like, buttons you press, whether they're actual physical tactile buttons or something like a touch screen. That's just That fundamentally is changing to where you're just talking to the machine and the machine and you're teaming with the machine.Alessio [00:10:58]: Voice?Qasar [00:10:59]: Yeah, voice, absolutely, yeah.Alessio [00:11:00]: Oh.Qasar [00:11:00]: And also the machine just being aware of who is in the cabin, what their state is. you can think from a safety systems perspective, the most simple version of this is, like, the driver is tired, right? They're, they're if you get those alerts when you're driving your car and saysHardware, Sensors, and the LiDAR QuestionQasar [00:11:15]: -maybe take a coffee break, that take that times, a couple of order of magnitudes up. But this concept of teaming man and machine is important. When you think about running agents or just running, different instances of, Claude and doing work for you in the background, you can take that analogy out, almost copy and paste and put it into, like, a farm, where you have a farmer who's running a number of machines. So where they interact with the machine is where there's maybe a critical decision or a disengagement or something like that, but generally speaking, the agent on the physical machine is running and making decisions on the behalf of the farmer until there's something maybe critical. And that's also what we work on. So that's not pure autonomy. It's a little bit of a mix, but it falls under, autonomy. In the automotive sense, that's typically defined in SAE levels as an L2++ systemQasar [00:12:05]: -with a human in the loop. But just take that idea, to other verticals.Alessio [00:12:09]: Yeah. You've not mentioned hardware at all, like sensors or obviously we you mentioned you don't do chips. I think even in AV there's, like, a big, cameras versus lidars. Like, what are, like, in your space maybe some of those design decisions that you made, and are they driven by the OEM's ability to put things on the machinery? And like, how much influence do you guys have on co-designing those?Peter [00:12:32]: Yeah. So we don't make sensors. Like, we're, we're not a manufacturer. Obviously, we use a lot of sensors in our autonomy products. in terms of what actually goes on the vehicles, we have a preferred set of sensors that we, let's say fully support, and then our customers, they can sort of choose from those. And obviously if there's a very strong opinion on supporting something else, we'll add that to the platform as well. And the lidar question is at this point sort of the age-old,Peter [00:12:59]: topic in autonomy, and the state of the industry right now is lidar is hands down a useful sensor, specifically for data collection and the R&D phase of autonomy development. if you see, for example, a Tesla R&D vehicle, it actually has lidar on itPeter [00:13:17]: to this day, right? In the Bay Area we see these. you'll see, like, Model Ys or Cybercab that have lidars on them just driving around. So it's, it's useful because it gives you per pixel depth information. So if you can pair a lidar with a camerand you can say that, well, this camera's looking this direction, this lidar's looking this direction, and now for each pixel of the camera I can see how far away is that pixel. you can actually then use that as a part of your model training, and then the that depth information then becomes a learned, a learned state of the camera data. And then when you're doing the production system, you can now remove the lidarPeter [00:13:52]: and now you can actually get depth with just the camera. And so that difference between, like, a highly sensored R&D vehicle and then the down-costed production vehicle, we use that across our whole portfolio of products. And of course the end goal is you want super low cost and super reliable.Peter [00:14:08]: And then in certain use cases you have some more, bespoke things. Like in defense as an example, you do things at night oftentimes, and so you care about sensors like infrared, more so than And you don't, you don't wanna be putting energy out, so you don't wanna use lidar or radar.Peter [00:14:23]: but you still need to be able to see at nighttime. So yeah, we work the whole gamut.The Operating System Layer: Why Vehicles Are Like Pre-Android PhonesAlessio [00:14:27]: Cool. So that's kinda like on the hardware level. Then on the OS level, how does that look like? What is, like, unique? my drive- I drive a Tesla. Whenever I drive some other car that has a screen, it always sucks.Alessio [00:14:38]: It's on, like, cheap Android tablet. It's like, it's laggy and all of that. What does the OS of, like, the autonomy future look like?Peter [00:14:46]: When most people, it's really what you just described. When you think about operating system in a vehicle, you're thinking about the HMI, right? The human machine interface, and absolutely that's a an important part of it, but that's actually only one thin layer on top. So when we talk about operating systems for, like, AI in vehicles, there's many layers that go deep into the CPU critical realm and embedded systems, and you're talking about the real time control ofPeter [00:15:13]: let's say the electric motors or the engine and the actuators, and you have different redundancies for different, let's say, the steering actuation in the vehicle. And all of these things, need very core support in the in the operating system. And then of course for autonomy you have real time sensor data that's streaming in, and the latencies there are really important, right? If you try to Imagine you try to run Microsoft WindowsPeter [00:15:35]: like streaming your sensor data in or controlling the vehicle. Like, the latencies are gonna be absurd. Like, you can never do that. And so what's special about what we do is we really have this system level thinking, right? So we're looking at, we care about every performance characteristics of the entire system, and then we also, because we're doing a lot of the software or all of that software, we can fine-tune and control all of those things. So we can very carefully tune in the latencies for every aspect of the system. We can carefully tune in the memory management. We can have the right, fail-safes and fallbacks, for different things. ‘Cause you have to account for what if, what if there is a critical failure? What if there's a cosmic ray that flipsPeter [00:16:14]: a bit in the middle of the processor that causes some, malfunction? And you have to have a fail-safe to all of that, and so the core operating system is a part of that. And then the one last thing, which is a lot less exciting but is, actually a very big topic, is reliability of updates.Peter [00:16:30]: so the I have a Tesla and you get updates fairly frequently, right?Peter [00:16:36]: Once a month. Most companies that are making vehiclesPeter [00:16:40]: are basically never doing updates, and they're And even if they are doing updates, they're usually only updating maybe one module. Maybe they're updating the HMI module. But they're not able to update, let's say, the CPU critical parts of the system.Peter [00:16:51]: You have to go into the dealer for that. And so with our operating system now we can actually enable highly reliable updates of any system in the vehicle, and that's way easier said than done. Like, there's lots of technical, technically deep stuff, in the tech stack to do that in a way that you're not going to accidentally brick a vehicle.Peter [00:17:08]: And right? If, imagine yourAlessio [00:17:10]: That would be bad.Alessio [00:17:11]: Bad.Peter [00:17:11]: Bricking a car is a very expensivePeter [00:17:13]: and honestly, like across the industry maybe one of the most just pure impactful things that we've done is we've just, we're, we're now enabling the industry to actually do software updates.Alessio [00:17:22]: Just to clarify as well, who is the customer for this? Like, I assume a lot of hardware manufacturers have their own firmware, and I'm sure some of them would just have you write it for them because you're experts. And others would have their own. Like, who pays for this? Who invites you into the house? Is it, is it the end user, or is it, is it the manufacturer?Peter [00:17:41]: Yeah. So let me make an analogy firstly on the on the fragmentation of software. So physical machines today are more akin to the state of the phone market before Android and iOS existed, right? So I worked on Android at Google by the way many years ago, and part of the reason that Larry at Google decided to get into Android was they wanted to run Google products on a bunch of phones, and they bought all of these phones from the industry, and it turned out they had like 50 different operating systems on these phones. And it was virtually impossiblePeter [00:18:17]: for Google to make their app run on all 50 devices equally well. And so the solution was, well, actually what if, what if they created-A really great operating system and made it attractive to all of these phone makers, and that was sort of the genesis for what Android was and why Android existed. It was a way for Google to get their products onto really wide diversity of devices. The state of the physical, industry right now, it's a little bit like that. Like, there's yes, these companies have firmware, but they have so many different operating systems, it's so fragmented, and to actually get a modern AI application to run on these vehicles, you actually, you first have to consolidate the operating system, and so that's, that's why we've done that. And then, your specific question was who are our customers? It's, it's, generally it's the companies that are making these machines.Peter [00:19:06]: And we're, we're, we're selling our technology to them to really simplify the architecture and then enable these AI applications to run on them.Customers, Licensing, and the Better-Together StackSwyx [00:19:13]: How much is reusable across? Like, do you have, like, one OS that is just configured for everything, or is there some more customization that is needed?Peter [00:19:22]: Yeah, highly reusable. So the fundamental technology is quite universal, right? So things that we do have to think about though are, like, chipset support. And so if you're, if you're coding, let's say, an LLM and you have start with an assumption that, “Hey, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna use CUDA, and I'm gonna run this, on an NVIDIA chip,” then you don't really have to think about the hardware in that sense. Like, you're just, “Okay, I'm just I'm in the CUDA/NVIDIA ecosystem, and I'm, I'm going to use that.” But the hardware, especially in safety critical systems, it's a lot more diverse. There's not one or one or two players. There's a bunch of different chipsets that we have to support. And so our operating system doesn't just run on, like, the equivalent of X86. It has to, it has to run on a number of different architectures from chips from a bunch of different companies. But again, we've been working on this for a long time now, so we have, we have support for all of those chipsets. And then when you want to then run the AI applications, we can then do that reliably across now a variety of providers.Qasar [00:20:19]: And I think that is, like, heavily inspired by Android, right? Android has a huge suite of testing and it's a reliable operating system that runs on thousands of devices. And we think we can, we can do the same in all these physical moving machines, with the difference that we're really in a safety critical realm. Android isn't.Alessio [00:20:40]: So on Android, I don't need to use Gmail, I can use Superhuman. Like, what about your machinery? Like, can people bring somebody else's automation to it, or is it kinda like all-in-one?Qasar [00:20:50]: You have to use us. No. Yeah. we're If, Yeah. Yeah, it's totally open. Yeah.Peter [00:20:56]: Yeah. our philosophy is that we are a technology company, and so we license our technology to customers to use how they want. And so if a customer wants to If they wanna license our autonomy tech and our operating system, then great, we'll license those. If they just wanna license the operating system and then use different autonomy tech, that's fine also, and we have great documentation andSwyx [00:21:17]: Or if they wanna use developer tooling.Peter [00:21:18]: Yeah, exactly.AI Coding Adoption: Cursor, Claude Code, and the Bimodal EngineerSwyx [00:21:19]: It's, like, a better together if, obviously, if you, if they work together. Is it all C++ I assume is with different compile targets?Peter [00:21:27]: We use a lot of C++.Peter [00:21:28]: Rust is sort of a hot, the new hot kid on the blockPeter [00:21:32]: for a bunch of things as well. But yeah, the lower level you get, especially when you get to real-time constraints, you hit C++ at some point, and at some point maybe you work your way into assembly when needed.Swyx [00:21:44]: Oh, damn.Alessio [00:21:46]: I'm curious about the coding agent adoption, just, like, since you're mentioning more esoteric languages. Like, what's the adoption internally? What have you learned?Peter [00:21:55]: Yeah. We use everything. So Cursor was, I think the hottest tool in the company for a good while. Now Claude Code, I think has taken the reign on that. We have a internal leader, leaderboard that we use just to sort of encourage adoptionPeter [00:22:09]: with-within the company. And yeah, it's, they're phenomenally useful. it's, Honestly, we take inspiration from some of those tools also in how we're adapting some of that mindset of thinking to the physical realm. Like if it's so easy to build an app for this or that thing that lives just on a screen, we can We're taking now a lot of the same ideas and applying that to, “Okay, well, if you wanted a physical machine to do something, how easy can we make that, using our own tooling and platform as well?”Alessio [00:22:40]: Are you changing any of, like, the OS architecture, kinda like the way you expose services to, like, be more AI friendly or?Peter [00:22:48]: Yeah, absolutely. The in the early days of our tools infrastructure work, it was a lot about, You had engineers that were experts in certain topics, but the things that you're dealing with, they're oftentimes more mathematical or more abstract, where actually GUI tools are very useful for certain things. Like as an example, we have a product we call Sensor Studio, which is, it helps you design the sensor suite for your autonomous vehicle, whether, again, it could be a car, it could be a drone, could be a mining equipment, could be a robot. And you place sensors in different places. You There's different, There's a library. You can understand what are the trade-offs that you're making in the design of that system, and that was, like, a very, a very GUI intensive, thing ‘cause it's a little more like a CAD tool in that senseSwyx [00:23:37]: YepPeter [00:23:37]: if you've seen CAD tools. Nowadays, though, right, we expose all of the underlying APIs for that and now using, AI agents, you can actually configure a sensor suite with just text and likely reach a better result than you could've through the GUI in the past, and we're taking that thinking now through the whole product portfolio.Swyx [00:23:57]: Another thing I was thinking about is just in terms of, like, AI, adoption, does it change your hiring at least a little bit, or how do you, how do you sort of manage engineers, differently?Peter [00:24:08]: Yeah. absolutely, it does. we, I think like every company in the Valley right now, are evolving our hiring practicesPeter [00:24:16]: because the skills required to be effective are changing so fast, right? you used to really select for just rote implementation ability and now it is more the AI engineer skill set, right? Where it's like, yeah, how to implement, but actually-Just banging out code is no longer the core job, right? It's, it's actually knowing what questions to ask, knowing how to tie, how to tie together these different AI tools. And so the interviews that we give now I think are way harder than they've ever been.Peter [00:24:46]: But we also allow, right, selective use of AI tools to solve the problems. And I think in that you start to see more of a bimodal distribution of engineers, right? You start to see like wow, there's, there's this subset of people that they really get it. Like they're, they're all in and they've, they've clearly invested the hours needed to learn these tools and how to be effective.Peter [00:25:09]: And then there's sort of the group of people that haven't done that, and that the productivity gap is just enormous. And so we're, we're trying to obviously select for the people that are really into this.Qasar [00:25:20]: I first wrote the my AI engineer piece three years ago, and when I first wrote about it, I was like, “Actually, not everyone should be an AI engineer,” ‘cause I think there's a there's an extremist stance where well, every software is an engineer is an AI engineer. And my actual example of people who should not be adopting AI was embedded systems and operating systems, and database people. Are they adopting AI?Peter [00:25:41]: I think it's the classic bitter lesson, topic, which is the Six months ago I would've said the same thing, but it's, it's becoming super useful for every domain.Qasar [00:25:53]: I'm sure.Peter [00:25:54]: Right? Like,Peter [00:25:56]: there was, I think six months ago, or maybe a year ago, if you tried to use, let's say the latest Claude model for writing shaders, GPU shaders, the results were probably underwhelming. And if you use the latest model now to do that kind of task, you're a little bit blown away, like, “Wow, that actually worked. That's amazing.” And we see the same thing in the embedded realm. No question though, especially when you get into safety critical systems, the human validation isPeter [00:26:25]: is 100% key. Like I You're not gonna trust your life to a an AI written software that's, that's not been very carefully, checked by humans. And so I think now the really the challenge is about that appropriate level of human validation for these safety critical systems.Verifiable Rewards, Evals, and Neural SimulationAlessio [00:26:41]: How do you think about, yeah, touching on the simulation side, I think verifiable reward and reinforcement learning is, like, the hottest thing. What have you done internally to build around that? And like, what gives you What makes you sleep at night? Like, if somebody's like, just web coding something or likeAlessio [00:26:57]: wants to try something new, you have like a good enough system. Because I think the opposite is also true, is like if it's super easy to write anythingAlessio [00:27:04]: then it puts a lot of work on like the verifiableAlessio [00:27:07]: side of it. Like, what does that look like for people?Peter [00:27:10]: Yeah. So verifiability, a broader bucket of like evaluations, right? Like how do you evaluate the results that you're, you're getting? I think this is probably the hardest problem right now, because the As the models get better, it can be harder and harder to find the faults on the system.Peter [00:27:29]: And so like the problem of doing proper eval to find those faults, like that problem also keeps getting harder as the models get better. But it's no less important than it's ever been, right? You still there are still going to be edge cases that are not met and whatnot. And so it's, it's a big area of investment for us. On the reinforcement learning topic, the key thing is there's all these new requirements that come to be in the latest generation of these technologies. So for example, end-to-end is the big thing right now in autonomy and physical AI, which is you can now train these models that can effectively take sensor data in and then put control signals out, and get really good results out of that. But the way that you train and improve those models is really different from the previous generations. And so to do reinforcement learning on an end-to-end model, you now need to actually simulate all the sensor data, right? So then this becomes a we call our, work in this neural simulation, but it'sPeter [00:28:26]: think of it like a hybrid of Gaussian, splatting and diffusion methods, and where you really care about performance. Like performance is everything. If you can't do enough simulation fast enough and cheap enough, you actually can't get results that are worthwhile, in the end. It also gets to a lot of our work in embedded systems, which is like performance critical work, and that performance optimization, performance criticality, it carries over to a lot of the model training work. because, like, the only way to make it affordable is it has to be really fast.Qasar [00:28:58]: I think it's worth a few minutes talking about our own, evolving thoughts on verification and validation withinQasar [00:29:05]: kind of, traditional simulators, which are, you can think of like vehicle dynamics or something like that, which you're just taking textbooks and taking those formulasQasar [00:29:13]: and putting them into software, to like now this neural sim/world model universe. I think that's an interesting topic.Peter [00:29:20]: Yeah. So in more traditional development, right, you oftentimes would have, more black-and-white answers to questions.Peter [00:29:28]: And so the in Europe as an example, there's, a regulatory, system, it's called Euro NCAP. It's the European New Car Assessment Program, and as part of that, the vehicles have to pass a bunch of tests, and those tests actually, include, safety systems. So automatic emergency braking for a child that runs in front of a carPeter [00:29:51]: or let's say an occluded child that runs out and you hit it. And so you have You end up with sort of these binary answers of like, well, did the car under test pass this specific test? And there's a very well-known set of test casesPeter [00:30:05]: that the vehicle has to pass. And that was how the industry worked, let's say, until 10-ish years ago. But what's changed now is with these models, everything is statistics, right? Like you no longer have a black-and-white answer, but it's like, well, how many orders of magnitude or how many nines of reliability can I get in the system, and how can I, how can I prove that to be true? And the big unlock honestly for physical AI as an industry is that these models are just becoming much more reliable. Right? Things like things actually work a lot better. It's like the number of nines you can get out of these systems are now good enough that it actually becomes cost effective to really deploy these things. And so the big shift in, so verification and validation has been from a little bit more of a Again the past it was strictly requirements, and are you meeting or not? And now it's more of a statistical, verification and validation case where it's all about how many nines of reliability and meantime between failures, that sort of thing.Statistical Validation, Regulators, and the Cruise LessonSwyx [00:31:04]: And is the target audience regulators or even the customers are yeah, if you I imagine the customers are bought in, and it's mostly regulators that need to be satisfied.Peter [00:31:15]: We do work with the US government, we do work of course with the European governments and the government of Japan, and the government is not like an AI lab by any means.Peter [00:31:25]: So Swyx [00:31:26]: They just care about the outcome.Peter [00:31:27]: They care about the outcome.Peter [00:31:28]: And so we do education, in that regard, and like so sort of teaching about, “Hey, this is how we think validation should be done, and this is an approach that we think is reasonable,” and how to think about like when is a driverless system actually safe enough to go on the roads and that sort of thing. But I wouldn't say that the government is asking for it. It's like we're more teaching the government in that, in that sense. It's honestly, it's more so for our own, our own comfort, right? Like, we want to build very safe systems, and then of course our customers care deeply about that as well. But in that context we're also typically educating our customers.Qasar [00:32:01]: Yeah. Our first, our first core value is on round safety. So I think we can't underline enough that, us also verifying and validating that the systems that we're deploying are safe to us is probably as important as, like, some regulator or a customer saying,Swyx [00:32:19]: Of course. Okay. Yeah.Swyx [00:32:20]: You have to satisfy yourselves.Peter [00:32:22]: As I say, as a whole across the world, regulation oftentimes it's like a almost lowest common denominator. But like, you really have to substantially exceed what the regulators are expecting to make good products.Swyx [00:32:33]: Yeah. One thing I often talk about, I think and I try to make this relatable to the audience also, is Cruise, where they had an accident that basically ended the company. I wonder if people overreact to single incidents, because incidents are going to happen regardless, right? ‘Cause it's a statistical thing, but as long I don't know if regulators understand that, you cannot extrapolate from a single incident, but we do because that's all we have to go on. And your sample sizes are necessarily gonna be lower than, I don't knowSwyx [00:33:00]: consumer driving.Qasar [00:33:01]: Yeah. I think the Cruise example wasn't a technology failure. there was The real, compounding issue there was just how did the company talk to the regulators and what was their kind of behavior, and I think that became more of the issue. If you look,Peter [00:33:19]: It isn't It definitely was a technology failure, but it was made much worse by theSwyx [00:33:23]: Put the car back on the woman.Qasar [00:33:25]: Yeah. And let me put it another way. There is a version where Cruise still exists.Swyx [00:33:29]: right. Right.Qasar [00:33:30]: Right. It'sSwyx [00:33:30]: It was like the last strawQasar [00:33:31]: ItSwyx [00:33:31]: in like a long chain ofSwyx [00:33:33]: like issues.Qasar [00:33:33]: So do you feel like ATG had that horrific accident or someone actually dying, because, that was a homeless person crossing the street? So yeah, I think we can't understate enough that ultimately, like, statistical validation of something, that's one part of it, but it's not the only part of it. Like, consumer and let's say, mainstream adoption of these technologies is also gonna be part of that conversation. I think companies like Waymo are doing a lot of service positively to the industry in the sense of they're, they're setting a high benchmark and they're showing, kind of in a very responsible way how to, how to deal with these. There have been Waymo incidences as well. They've just not been as significant as the Cruise one that you mentioned. But yeah, so I think you'll just continue to see that. I think probably the long term question is really gonna be, again, around Like it is very clear humans are way worse drivers statistically.Qasar [00:34:29]: Like, there's no, there's no debate. And so at what point But we're emotional animals.Swyx [00:34:34]: Yeah. So my thing is, like, we have to get to a point as a society where we accept horrific accidents that would never happen by a human because statistically we understand that it is safer overall. In the same way that planes, they're safer, than I think they're the safest mode of transport that we have.Qasar [00:34:50]: Yeah. it's more dangerous to drive to the airport than it is to get on a flight.Qasar [00:34:53]: So if you're everQasar [00:34:54]: if you're ever getting nervous about getting on a plane, just think “I just gotta get to the airport.”Swyx [00:34:58]: Yes, we're flying.Qasar [00:34:59]: If I get to the airportQasar [00:35:00]: I'll be good.Swyx [00:35:00]: But then it's, planes also concentrate the tail risk if planesQasar [00:35:03]: Yeah. AndPeter [00:35:04]: And I was, I don't think we honestly have to worry about there ever being, accidents from these systems that are like much worse than what humans would cause, ‘cause humans do terrible things.Peter [00:35:14]: Like, people fall asleep at the wheel all the time.Swyx [00:35:16]: I have.Swyx [00:35:17]: Like, I'll call, I've been a drowsy driver.Peter [00:35:19]: Kinda drunk drivers, and that'sPeter [00:35:20]: that's the extreme end of the example. But these AI systems, you have redundancies, you have fallbacks. Like, there's many things have to go wrong for there to actually be a something catastrophic because there's, there's so many, fallbacks that these systems have.Alessio [00:35:36]: your simulation is like so vast because there's so many use cases. What are, like, maybe things that worked in a simulation and then you put it out and it's like, “F**k, this isAlessio [00:35:45]: this just did not work at all?”Peter [00:35:47]: Yes.Alessio [00:35:47]: IsPeter [00:35:47]: That's maybe a bit of a misconception, about simulation there. So let me go a little bit, more technical on this. So at first go, no simulation is going to represent the real world. There's always a process of this, sim to real matchingPeter [00:36:02]: where you actually, you need the real world feedback to basically feed into the parameters that are being used in the simulator, and you have to do that, it's like this validation flow, a number of times until you can get some confidence that, like I think the simulator is now accurately representingPeter [00:36:19]: what's gonna happen in the real world. Now, if you have a situation where you've done that full validation and you thought that it was accurate and then there's something different, those are much trickier cases, and that's, that absolutely can happen, but really I think the validation process is a really important part. You can never skip the simulation validation process, like where you're actually ensuring that, hey, the actual, my sim to real gap here is small enough that I can trust these simulation results. And there's, there's so many fun things that you can do when you get into it. Like, I'll, I'll give one fun example that came up recently is like in these humanoid robotics, systemsOverheating actuators is a real problem, right? So obviously phenomenal demos. IPeter [00:37:01]: The most amazingAlessio [00:37:02]: For 10 minutes.Peter [00:37:03]: The most amazing I can get. I love, I love watching robots do acrobatics like everybody but the these systems actually overheat, right? If, like, And one of the ways you can use simulation though is you can actually have that, the temperature of those actuators be one of the parameters that's representedPeter [00:37:18]: in the simulation. And if you're doing reinforcement learning over a certain task, then the robot can actually adjust its motions in the simulation to account for the fact that, oh, it knows that as it's moving, it's actually beginning to overheat this motor. But if you didn't have that parameter of, let's say, the heat of that motor represented in the simulation initially, then your RL policy might It will disregard that. And now you run that on the robot and the robot will overheat and fail.Alessio [00:37:43]: I guess the question is, like, how do you have all of these parameters taken care of while also understanding the deployment environment? Like, temperature is like a great example, right? WellAlessio [00:37:53]: why did you make my robot worse when it runs in like a freezer?Alessio [00:37:57]: So it actually shouldn't worry about that. it's like, yeah, how do you design these simulations?Peter [00:38:02]: This is honestly the This is what makes simulation so hard, right? it's because you Simulation is fundamentally about you're trying to optimize the development of a system, right? Like, how can I build this system faster and better and cheaper and what are all the levers that I have to actually accomplish that? And because simulation's just a software program, you can, you can change it a lot more easily than you can hardware systems. And then what's particularly awesome about the let's say, world models and using that as a part of simulation is now the simulation doesn't just scale with, let's say, adding new math equations inPeter [00:38:36]: but we can actually scale the simulation environment now with additional real world data and that also unlocks a whole new field of robotics.Qasar [00:38:46]: There is a meniscus line where you cross where still doing real world testing is better. there's, in this, sim-to-real gap, you can reproduce reality at exceedingly expensive costs and this So nothing is free. So really you have to you're finding that line where you're getting great performance, you're getting great feedback, whether it's on the training side or on the eval side, but it's way cheaper than doing it in the real world. At some point it, that doesn't make sense. And so even, from our earliest days in autonomy, our view was you're still gonna do real world testing. You There's, there's not, there's not this, magical land where you're not gonna do that. And maybe even like a more nuanced version of this in like traditional software development is, most of your testing for software in a vehicle, 95% of that can be like traditional CI/CD kind of, flows that you would have in traditional web development. But once you have Now you, let's say you have a truck. Well, you can do like 4% of those in like a rig which has all the components, the electrical and electronics of a truck, but doesn't have, it doesn't have the tires and it doesn't have the And then you have the 1%, which is actually the vehicle. There's something There's a similar analogy in terms of using simulation for intelligent systems. You can do a lot in a simulator, but in using world models, but ultimately it's, it's physical AI. So you're gonna deploy it on physical machines andQasar [00:40:17]: the freezer example comes to, comes to light.Alessio [00:40:20]: The world model thing has been to me the hardest thing toAlessio [00:40:22]: wrap my head around. Like we have Faith Eliyon on the podcast.World Models, Hydroplaning, and Cause-Effect LearningQasar [00:40:25]: We've been doing a small series with like another Intuition company, General Intuition as well.Qasar [00:40:31]: yeah, and I mean, lots of, lots of coverage on NeRFs and yes.Alessio [00:40:34]: Yeah. It feels like we talk with about, the heliocentric system, right? It's like in a world model, if you just feed visual data, the model might learn that the sun spins around the Earth. It makes sense, right? And it's like, well, not really. And I think what are like some of these other things that like hydroplaning is one thing I think about, is like can a world model understand hydroplaning and like what amount of water like causes it to happen? And it's like, yeah, to me it's like I don't understand how you guys do it. I guess it's like the real thing is like when you're doing both cars and the highway in Japan versus the excavator in a mine in,Qasar [00:41:13]: ArizonaAlessio [00:41:13]: wherever you're Arizona, wherever you're deploying them.Alessio [00:41:15]: How much of it are you relying on the world models to like generate the simulations for you and then try and close the gap after versus like giving the world models as a tool to your engineers to like curate the simulations if that makes sense?Peter [00:41:28]: Yeah, totally. So yeah, I can say at a pure engineering level, I think if you're hoping to do real world deploys and you're purely relying on a world model approach, you probably won't get to something that works, before you go bankrupt. So there is just a very practical mindset of like, world models are amazing and they're extremely useful for a lot of use cases, but there are a lot of other things that you need to do to actually get something started and something deployed and working. most fundamentally, world models are all about It's understanding the world, but also understanding what's going to happen. It's like the cause-effect relationship.Peter [00:42:01]: Right? And so like it, right, if you have a take some sort of construction tool, and that construction tool is gonna be doing some work on the Earth in some way, it's gonna be moving earth, the world model needs to understand that cause-effect relationship. Like, okay, when I, when I take this material from here and put it over there and now I have things that are over here and not over there anymore and that cause-effect, relationship. data obviously is a is a big problem. The hydroplaningPeter [00:42:26]: one is actually a really great example because it's actually quite non-obvious sometimes. Right? It's like, well, it's, it's raining and well this road, has, let's say the appropriate curvature to it so the water is running off the road and cars are driving faster here and then you approach a road that's very flat and water is now puddling on that road and all of a sudden cars are driving slower because when they were driving faster they were starting to lose control. And there are a lot of visual nuance, very nuanced visual cues in the scene and so I do think in the world model concept there's a good chance that the model actually would learn that you should just drive slower when these visual cues exist, and that's obviously the beautiful-The beauty of, these kinds of models where they just, they learn these non-obvious things.Swyx [00:43:14]: It doesn't need to know about hydroplaning to know that it needs to drive slower.Peter [00:43:17]: Yes.Swyx [00:43:17]: I guess it's Yeah. I wanna ask questions about, also deploying models. I presume, like, you use a lot of these world models for training data and simulation, but what about deploying it onto the systems in production? Presumably you have you have, like, GPUs on deviceOnboard vs. Offboard: Latency, Embedded ML, and DistillationSwyx [00:43:36]: but they're I keep saying on device. What's the what's the right term for that?Peter [00:43:40]: On machine.Swyx [00:43:41]: On machine.Peter [00:43:41]: Or embedded, yeah.Swyx [00:43:42]: Yeah. What is the embedded world like? because for people who are not used to that world, this is very alien.Peter [00:43:49]: Yeah. So it's actually We call it onboard and off board.Peter [00:43:52]: So like, onboard software and off board software.Peter [00:43:54]: And the great thing about off board software is you don't have to care about time, and you can run really large models, right? So you can, you can say, “Well, this model, I don't care if it takes one second for it to give me a result or 10 seconds for it to give me a result, because we have time.” And the models can be really big, and they can run, in a data center or on a on a huge GPU and you can obviously have distribute to compute, et cetera. But onboard you don't have any of those benefits. You're like, “Well, I need I have this many milliseconds where I need an answer from this model.” And so a lot more of the energy then is about, think of it more like distillation and it's like truly efficiency and like, literally every fraction of a millisecond counts. And you can't have a situation where the model takes too long because then the vehicle can't actually function.Peter [00:44:42]: And so you can, you can still use a lot of the same techniques, and the models themselves you can think of as like a derivative of larger models that you can run offline, and then you're, you're trying to just get a model that is still performs really well but it's, it's a it's smaller, small enough version that you can then run on this embedded system where you care about latency and power.Qasar [00:45:03]: Yeah. And I think like, the broader point I think which, maybe is not obvious but it's worth saying is in physical AI world, we're not really constrained right now by, like, the intelligence of the models. It's actually what Peter's talking about, it's actually deploying them inSwyx [00:45:19]: The hardware they give you.Qasar [00:45:21]: Yeah. On the hardware you give you.Qasar [00:45:22]: And so And there's just a reality is of safety critical systems. So those end up being the your limiting factorsQasar [00:45:29]: rather than, let's say, a limiting factor for, a foundation model companyQasar [00:45:34]: is gonna be just capital maybe or researchers.Qasar [00:45:38]: So we're, we're in that way dealing with, for us as people who kind of come in that realm with like a very interesting Those constraints force creativity.Swyx [00:45:47]: And I imagine, nobody was deploying or giving you the hardware for transformers back in 2018, whatever, but now they are. What's the evolution like? just peel back the curtains a little bit.Peter [00:45:59]: Yeah. Transformers first off, I think the paper was originally published in 2017.Swyx [00:46:02]: 2017.Swyx [00:46:02]: So there's no time.Peter [00:46:04]: And ISwyx [00:46:05]: But I'm just saying I guess I'm saying, like, embedded ML systems usually, like, a lot less parameters, a lot less compute, and now, like, orders of magnitude more.Peter [00:46:14]: Yeah. absolutely. what I was gonna say though was I think in the in the original paper in 2017, maybe it's in the last paragraph, somewhere in the paper they talk about, like, “Oh, by the way, this technique might be useful for, like, images and videos as well.”Peter [00:46:30]: These last subjects.Peter [00:46:31]: And it took a few years for that impact to really hit. But like, now, we're seeing transformers are everywhere.Swyx [00:46:39]: Yeah. Vision transformers.Peter [00:46:40]: And then then the compute just keeps getting better and better. But you do have this fundamental trade-off, right? It's like you have power, you have cost, and performance and like, getting the right, getting the right mix of those things in an embedded package that can also be, like, shaken and baked in all thePeter [00:47:00]: conditions that these things have to have to operate in. But yeah, I think that they're only going to keep getting better and so we also try to plan our strategy understanding that, we know the rate of improvements of these systems.Swyx [00:47:11]: Yeah. So like, Google just released the Gemma 2B modelSwyx [00:47:15]: that effective 2B model. Is that useful to you guys or is that too big?Peter [00:47:18]: You can run that model on an embedded system, definitely.Peter [00:47:21]: the So yes, it's, it's useful in that regard. The bigger question is, like, what do you use it for in an embedded system? Like, you actually need to customize it quite a bit to make it useful for something. But yeah, you could run a two billion parameter model, definitely.Swyx [00:47:35]: It also interesting, like, what percent is a custom ML model that only does that thing versus a generalist LLMSwyx [00:47:41]: which probably is not that useful actually for your context.Peter [00:47:46]: Like, you, like, you can imagine different use cases, right?Peter [00:47:48]: So theSwyx [00:47:49]: The voice stuff, yes.Peter [00:47:49]: Yeah, the voice test. Totally, yes.Peter [00:47:51]: So for the actual, autonomy elements, that's 100% in-house. We do every bit of that, the data simulation, the model, everything. But when you get into the more generic use cases like voice or voice assistant kind of thing, that's where these more generalist models like Gemma actually can be quite, can be quite useful.Swyx [00:48:09]: Yeah. And then there's also obviously a trade-off between, like, what percent must you do on machine, versus just call home.Peter [00:48:16]: Yeah. It's all about latency.Swyx [00:48:17]: Latency.Peter [00:48:17]: It's all about latency. Yeah.Swyx [00:48:18]: Yeah. Well, like, I think actually in a lot of contexts, especially in the US, you can just have a connection to the web.Qasar [00:48:26]: Yeah. I think though most of our universe is everything has to be fairly, embedded and local because just the nature of Even in the US there's a lot of likeSwyx [00:48:39]: PatchinessQasar [00:48:40]: don't haveQasar [00:48:41]: have coverage, right? And if you look at, like, the old world of autonomy within mining, which is, like, long before transformers and kind of, neural networks, in the like CNN and kind of a universe, they were really just hand-coded, systems. They were just like, this machine is gonna run to that place with thisPeter [00:49:03]: That was our GPS, like very accurate GPS.Qasar [00:49:05]: Yeah. And so that worked, and that worked for 20 years, so why would we actually need to use transformers or kind of more modern end-to-end systems? Mainly because you can only really run a path and run backwards. That provided a lot of value, but m-Not as much as you get when the machine is actually intelligent. It's, it's seeing, it's perceiving, it's acting in a dynamic world.Alessio [00:49:28]: I looked up RTK, real-time kinematic, one to two-centimeter accuracy.Qasar [00:49:32]: Yeah. Fantastic. But the and fantastic in faraway lands where there's not gonna be cell phone coverage.Peter [00:49:39]: Yeah, so it's widely used on the legacy mining and agricultural autonomy systems today. So like, for example, a combine that can be precise within one or two centimeters as it's driving down the field, they use RTK.Qasar [00:49:53]: Yes.Peter [00:49:53]: But it's, it's expensive.Qasar [00:49:54]: Yeah. And it's, it's, it's autonomy, but it's not intelligent in the way that I think all of usQasar [00:49:58]: if in twenty-six we'd be talking about intelligence.Alessio [00:50:00]: In one of your blog posts, you mentioned research on large scale transformers that are similar to those doing modern generative AI. What are, like, the big differences other than, “You're absolutely right. I should steer the car, so you probably wanna remove that?”Peter [00:50:14]: We have a diversified bet strategy internally, and the reason we've done that is because we operate in now a bunch of industries, a bunch of geographies, and each of the approaches has, obviously a different risk to them.Peter [00:50:27]: And so like, we're not going to put all of our eggs in a single basket for a single approach because that approach may no

In a world of noise and distraction, there is a trend in “Bringing Simplicity Back To Investing.” RICK FERRI and I talk about why it’s important for investments and why it’s important for individuals. You’re going to leave here understanding a new framework for looking at your investment portfolio and hopefully bring some peace of mind as you go forward. https://youtu.be/8EFnt_UTjEA Rick Ferri has been a good friend to the podcast. He shares his insights on simple investing, emphasizing the importance of clarity, discipline, and understanding the core principles of investing. He discusses the pitfalls of complexity, the value of index funds, and how to maintain a disciplined approach amidst market noise. https://open.spotify.com/episode/743dxOLLgZjUzKszZo4Owy?si=57mqK1ZmQ0a7LPdcwVoQ-g Keywords investing, index funds, simplicity, portfolio management, financial planning, discipline, asset allocation, tax efficiency, global growth, investment philosophy Key topics The philosophy of simple investingThe stages of investor learning: darkness, enlightenment, and simplicityThe importance of cash flow and intrinsic value in investmentsAsset allocation based on liabilities and time horizonTax-efficient investing strategies for taxable and retirement accountsRisks of alternative investments and private equity in retirement plansDiscipline and automation in maintaining investment strategies Chapters of “Bringing Simplicity Back to Investing” 00:00 The Philosophy of Simple Investing07:03 Stages of Investment Understanding11:19 Financial Planning and Purpose17:57 Implementing a Simple Portfolio23:01 Discipline in Investing30:46 Navigating Complexity in Wealth Management Resources Rick Ferri’s Website – https://rickferri.comBogleheads.org – https://bogleheads.orgIndex Fund Book by Rick Ferri – https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Rick+Ferri&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 Website – https://rickferri.comTwitter – https://twitter.com/RickFerri Skeptic’s Guide to Investing Outline: “Bringing Simplicity Back To Investing” Introduction: Three parts to simple investing: Philosophy, Strategy, Discipline Part 1: Philosophy: Overview: Embrace Simplicity – the Education of an Index Investor – 4 stages 1: Born in Darkness (who you ask, chasing returns, naive research) 2: Finding Enlightenment (measure, compare, enlightened) 3: Complexity Traps (slice'n dice, factors, the fallacy of perfection) 4: Embrace Simplicity (global equity, specific fixed-income as needed) Part 2: Portfolio Strategy Overview: Making the Philosophy Work for You 5: Setting Goals (family – culture, career – taxes, risk tolerance) 6: Managing Risk (three ways to allocate assets: required return, risk avoidance, cash-flow) 7: Tax Management (three account types, asset class tax, tax avoidance) 8: Investment Selection (ETF vs fund, balanced funds & TDFs) Part 3: Discipline: Overview: Implement, automate, stay the course 9: Implement fully (consolidate, tax issues, lump sum vs DCA) 10: Maintain regulatory (automate new, rollovers, TLH) 11: Adjust as goals change (accumulation vs distribution, tax situations, legacy) 12: Stay the Course (recommit occasionally, continue ed., conferences) Transcript of “Bringing Simplicity Back to Investing” Frazer Rice (00:00.962)Welcome aboard, Rick. Rick Ferri (00:02.3)Well, thank you for having me. Frazer Rice (00:04.258)Well, thank you. First of all, want to thank you for a kindness you showed me way back in time and having me on the Boggleheads podcast. It was probably worth at least 25 % of my book sales and it was a lot of fun to do and never forgot it. So it took a while, but here we are back on my podcast. And what I want to do is go through a little bit about really the three parts to simple investing, which I think is something, especially now with the proliferation of alternatives, a lot of noise with crypto. That sometimes we kind of lose sort of the forest for the trees as far as what’s the right things to be thinking about in terms of an overall investing philosophy sort of embrace. And so maybe let’s start with that. How do you think about the parts to a good investing thesis and what is your overall worldview on that? Rick Ferri (00:55.804)So I’ve been in the investment advisory industry now for 40 years. And what I have learned is that the simpler you can make investing and the simpler you can make the portfolio, the better for you, the better for your family, the better for those who will inherit your portfolio. Don’t make it complicated. Complexity is just job security for those people who are selling you things and trying to manage your money. And in the end, you don’t benefit from that. They do in the form of fees. And if you just had a simple portfolio of a few good index funds and maybe some individual securities, you’ll be much better off and your family will be better off in the long term. And that’s the philosophy of simple investing. Frazer Rice (01:50.947)Mm-hmm. Rick Ferri (01:53.208)The second part is a strategy. How do you go about doing this, particularly if you’ve had a complex portfolio? And the third thing is discipline, which is how do you stick with simplicity as an investment philosophy? Frazer Rice (02:06.318)Sure. and without the second two, it’s great to have high-minded thoughts and so on, but if you can’t do it, it’s all for naught, and then if you can’t stick with it, then the best laid plans just kind of go asunder here. So let’s go back to the philosophy for a second here, and as you think about, it’s almost like the life cycle of discovery and learning about how these things work. How do you think about that from an ARC perspective? Rick Ferri (02:12.561)Ha ha. Rick Ferri (02:36.05)So generally when you’re new to investing, you’re going to ask other people for advice. I where you get that from, might be a friend or family member, maybe a professional advisor, might be coworkers, maybe you’ll just get on the internet and start searching. I don’t know, but 99.9 % of the time you’re gonna run into advice that is not very good. And the advice will be, you should put your money here, you should put your money there. Use these 10 different funds. It’s just a lot of confusion, quite frankly. I call this stage darkness because you don’t, you you’re just investing in the dark. You don’t know. And a lot of the advice is going to be very short based upon short-term performance. So recency biased people are going to be recommending, but you know, growth stocks because the Magnificent Seven has done well in the past. Or buy crypto because crypto went up a lot in the past and so therefore you should buy it now. And so most of the advice you’ll get in darkness is going to be recent based upon recent performance and rather than looking at it over say how should you be investing over 10, 20, 30 years and that will end up being quite different. So darkness is where we all begin. And most people stay in darkness. They never get out of darkness because they don’t put the brain cells to work to look at how am I doing? I mean, how has that done for me? What seems to be happening in my portfolio? Really? Do I really know what’s going on? And then the ones who are very fortunate start asking questions about, what if I just Frazer Rice (04:06.125)You Rick Ferri (04:31.334)bought the market and bought an index fund and just got the return of say the US stock market or the international stock market and that’s all I ever did. Would I be better off? And the answer to that 98 % of the time is yes, you would be better off if that’s all that you did. And if you come to this realization, I call it the second stage, which is enlightenment, where you now realize that, okay, all the stuff I’ve been doing may have been okay. I’ve been moving in and out of things, but now I need to start looking at just buying the market and holding it for the longterm. And that’s enlightenment. But for some people, it doesn’t stop there. And they start to dig into this idea of indexing. When you start doing that, it’s good that you’re learning, but you’ll start running into a whole lot of noise. That is alternative indexes, enhanced indexes uh… explore strategies all of these things that you’re going to take this nice simple concept called indexing and make it complicated again. So you start adding all these things to your portfolio because it has the word index in it or maybe the word passive in it and uh… advisors are notorious for doing this it’s called complexity for job security Frazer Rice (05:39.148)Right. Rick Ferri (05:54.066)Basically, are, you know, you take the idea of indexing and you just add a lot of things all around the edges of it and you make a simple portfolio complicated. So the third stage of this process of simplicity is complexity. In other words, you’ve made something simple complex. Okay, so the last stage is Frazer Rice (05:54.221)You Rick Ferri (06:18.544)Simplicity. That is that you realize this is going on. You realize that all the stuff that you’re adding to your portfolio is just making it all complicated again. And that the people who are benefiting from this are not you, but the people that are selling you all this stuff. And you say, that’s it, I’m done. I’m going back to my second epiphany, if you will, which is simplicity. I’m just going to go back to a simple portfolio of a few broad index funds, US stock market index fund. An international stock market index fund that covers the whole market and a couple of bond funds, municipal bond fund and maybe corporate bond funds or treasury bond funds. And you could use index funds for those as well. And it’s a really low cost, very tax efficient and very simple. Frazer Rice (07:05.953)A couple of quick asides here. The first one is for people who are coming into this in and they’re in the darkness, but they are informed maybe from the TikTok world or Robin Hood or Kal-She or these or these betting orientations and distinguishing between betting and investing. How do you think about that and kick people over to the positive side of the force so that their emergence from the darkness into the enlightenment and simplicity doesn’t take them in a place where they really touch the stove in a bad way and have a bad experience that’s simple but bad. Rick Ferri (07:32.988)Right, okay. Rick Ferri (07:51.484)So there’s a concept called intrinsic value. You may have heard Warren Buffett speak about this. Well, you want to buy things that have cashflow. Bonds, for example, have cashflow. They pay interest. Stocks have cashflow. You have companies that are going concerns. They earn earnings and pay dividends. They buy back stock and they reinvest money. So you can value these things based upon these cashflows. Real estate has cash flow, it pays rent, or maybe you own timberland that you can cut the wood or you own a farm where you can harvest or lease it out. mean, these are cash flows. So the first thing that I have for cut in investing is cash flow. How do my investments generate cash or will generate cash later on down the road? That’s different than say buying gold or Bitcoin or currencies or commodities. Those things don’t have a way of generating a cashflow. One bar of gold put in a safe is one bar of gold a thousand years from now. It doesn’t become two bars of gold. doesn’t get little bars of gold. It doesn’t pay interest and so forth. mean, so unless you’re good at Frazer Rice (09:12.994)Right. Rick Ferri (09:16.966)Buying low and selling high, you can’t really expect to make anything other than maybe the inflation rate. And with commodities, you actually earn less than the inflation rate. Gold has earned a little bit more than the inflation rate. Where Bitcoin is going to end up, I have no idea. But the speculative assets are the ones that usually don’t have any intrinsic value. People are just betting on price because that’s all you have. I f price is going up, let’s buy it. Because the price went up. I don’t know where it’s going, but the price went up, so let’s buy it. And maybe someone dumber than us will buy it at a higher price from us, and then we can make money. But I mean, you have to trade these things. And what information do you have? None, really. It’s very difficult to come up with information that the market doesn’t already have. And you’re not a professional trader. So you might get lucky. I mean, people do get lucky. You you can flip a coin. And pick heads 10 times and if it comes up head 10 times it doesn’t mean you’re a good coin flipper you’re just lucky and so you can get lucky and you can make money doing this but it’s not a long-term investment strategy to do that it’s best to buy things that have cash flows or will have cash flows in the future. Frazer Rice (10:30.175)As I like to tell people, you not only have to be right, you have to be right twice, and then you have to be systematically right twice in order to make a living out of it. even professional traders struggle at that. And to think that you’re going to be better equipped than a lot of those folks is folly. And so I try to talk people out of that whenever I can, because I think… Rick Ferri (10:35.42)Correct. Frazer Rice (10:58.101)It’s just very difficult to play in that space and have that turn out to be a success. Okay, so we kind of have some ideas here around the philosophy and sort of the idea of, you know, sort of garnering luck versus skill and those types of components in that portfolio strategy, that second phase, maybe take us through that a little bit and how you take a good philosophy of simplicity and make it work for you. Rick Ferri (11:22.18)Right. So this gets into a little financial planning at the beginning of it because you can’t invest without a purpose. I you have to have a reason why you’re investing. It might be to pay future liabilities such as college for your children or retirement, or maybe you want to leave a legacy or maybe just trying to build wealth for the family, whatever it is. I mean, you have to have a purpose. And so what is the purpose? What are you trying to do? And you have to look at your life and you have to say, are my liabilities? What are my short-term liabilities? Do I want to buy a house? Or do I want to send my kids to Ivy League school? Do I want to retire early? And what are my liabilities? And sometimes it involves other family members. Maybe you have parents who need your help or siblings who need your help. So that’s a liability. The first thing you have to do is look at what are my liabilities? And included in that is how much you want to leave to your children. I often ask people, okay, you’ve got $10 million. How much do you want to leave to each of your three children? And they don’t have any idea. I said, do you want to leave more than 10 million or you want to leave less than 10 million? And a lot of people would say, well, they’ll get what’s left. Well, that changes the whole concept of investing if they’ll get what’s left. Frazer Rice (12:43.318)Sure. Rick Ferri (12:43.634)Versus, yes, I want to leave each of my child five million dollars when I die and I’m starting with ten. Okay, well that changes how you invest your money. So these are the liabilities. So that’s where you start with. And then you start looking at well, what are the short-term liabilities and what are the long-term liabilities? And long-term liabilities can be funded with equity. Meaning things that are ten years or longer out. I usually I tell people anything you’re to be spending your money on between say, Now and 10 years from now probably shouldn’t be in equity. You’ll be getting dividends and interest from your portfolio, which is fine. You could just spend that money. But in addition to that, I big chunks of money that you might be spending to buy a vacation home or whatever it is really should probably not be in equity. But the money that’s going to be not used for 10 years or longer, 20 years or maybe ever in your life, that can be in equity. don’t differentiate that first. A lot of times asset allocation, that’s what we’re talking about, starts with, well, what do you want between stocks and bonds? What do you want your portfolio to look like? What percentage in stocks and what percentage in bonds? I don’t think you really get to that number until you know when you’re going to be needing the money. If you’re going to be needing the money 10 years out, fine, that money can be in stock. So that would allocate a portion of that long-term money to stock and that might be a percentage. Okay, so that’s what we start with. A real basic look at who you are and what do you need and when are you going to need it and what are you trying to do for your heirs. And then that leads to an asset allocation between stocks and fixed income. The stocks again, I’m not investing in any stock money in liabilities that I have in the next say 10 years. So it’s long term. Okay. Now we have to look at the stock side. That’s the easy stocks. Stock investing is easy. I quite quite frankly, I’m working on a book right now about this, but stock investing is very simple. It’s much easier than fixed income and bond investing. Stock investing is simply we buy the global equity market. We’re just trying to buy the growth of global economic growth, global GDP growth. We’re trying to capture that, which has been going on. Rick Ferri (15:08.594)Fairly steady for about the last 250 years and continues to be that way as more and more countries shift more towards capitalism and away from fascism and communism and so forth and realizing that capitalism is the way if you want to take care of your people and you want to increase standards of living all around the world, it’s done through capitalism. much a fact of life. Capitalism works. Well, I’m well. Frazer Rice (15:31.185)I think many can agree with that, although it might not be popular here in New York. Rick Ferri (15:37.425)The reason New York existed was because it was a port for capitalism at first. So I mean, is the financial capital of the US still is New York. So you could disagree with it because you live in New York, but you’d be in a minority and you’d be outside of reality and history as well. But the idea is that it’s all I’m trying to capture this global growth of… Frazer Rice (15:41.686)That’s right. Frazer Rice (15:55.648)Exactly. Rick Ferri (16:03.026)Global economic growth, which is about 2 % per year in real terms. So if I get from equity, if I get the inflation rate and I get 2 % real growth and then I get about a 3 % dividend yield and that comes from both cash dividends and then buybacks, we’re looking at about a 7.5 % expected return from global equity. And that’s good enough. I mean, that’s all I need on my equity side. I’ll be outperforming inflation by about 5%. I’ll have to pay some taxes, but I’ll still have an actual real after-tax return of about 3%, which is good. Okay. The rest of it then goes into fixed income. And what type of fixed income? Well, that depends on what type of account that you have and what your taxes are. So if it’s in a taxable account, it could be municipal bond income, because it’s probably your best bet if you’re in anything other than a 22 % tax bracket. Or if it’s in your retirement account, could be corporate bonds. And depending what state you live in, it could be treasury bonds. But you don’t expect the treasuries or the corporate bonds or the municipal bonds really to give you much of a return over taxes and inflation. If you could pick up 1 % over taxes and inflation over 20 years or so by being in fixed income, I mean, you’re actually doing well. So that is more of a stabilizer, meaning you don’t want to be all in stock because you can’t handle the volatility of the stock market. It goes up and down too much, even though the asset allocation would say, well, you should have an awful lot of your money in stock because you have a lot of money that you’re not going to be needing in the next 10 years. But a lot of people can’t handle having a lot of money in stock. So you have fixed income that at least keeps up with taxes and inflation over the long term. And that becomes part of your asset allocation as well. So it’s kind of how you This is what you do first before you go out and pick any index funds. You have to go through this process. Frazer Rice (18:00.116)And then as part of that, I spend a lot of time basically all day, every day thinking about the tax management side of things and helping people understand their appetite for volatility and how that impacts their long-term goals and things like that. The creation of these buckets to understand where you are in your tax situation and where you’re going to be, that can have a pretty significant impact on how things do. And from your perspective, I that’s really just, that’s a function of projecting out the purposes that you described before with your current situation and then the vehicles with which to invest in. Rick Ferri (18:38.226)Right. And you’re not trying to hit the ball over the fence here. I mean, you’re just trying to get your fair share of the returns that are available to everybody. And through index funds, and this is where index funds come in, you can get exactly that. I mean, you could buy a global equity index fund, a global equity, covers the entire globe for a few basis points, 0.05 % per year fee. It’s very tax efficient. And that wasn’t the case. 30 years ago, 40 years ago, but it is now. that’s the way you should do this. You don’t want to leave out all these ideas that you’re going to go out and hire people who are going to outperform that because they don’t. A vast majority of them don’t. Frazer Rice (19:21.963)And so the machinery to implement these portfolios, ETFs are sort of standard tax-efficient ways to do things. Mutual funds distribute gains at the end, which is sometimes a nasty surprise for people who are learning about this. Maybe take us through your analysis on how to implement this index investing in a way that stays simple and tax-efficient and at the same time helps you take advantage of what’s out there. Rick Ferri (19:52.883)So we have to divide up the world between your taxable money. Again, you already have a portfolio. So you have all these legacy assets in a portfolio, in your taxable portfolio. Then you have your retirement portfolio, 401k, 403b, 457 IRA, rollover, Roth IRAs, tax-free portfolio. So you have to look at taxes first. To implement a…simple portfolio say in a 401k if you have access to a target date index retirement fund like a Vanguard or an iShare or a State Street very low cost Fidelity has one too but very low cost index target date retirement fund this does it all for you you don’t have to do anything you just have to buy one fund based upon what the asset allocation is underneath the hood of that particular fund. How much in stock, how much in bond. That’s all you need to do in a 401k. You could roll your own in a 401k by buying individual index funds like a US stock market index fund, an international index fund, and say a bond index fund. So you could do your own allocation if you wish. But a target date fund works really well there. In a Roth account, you probably just want to have equity because there’s no tax in a Roth account. So you want to get maximum growth out of that account. So I would you look at the Roth account and I’d say, well, I’ll just buy the global equity index fund and my Roth account. And that’s it. All I have. So you’ve got your retirement accounts, which are target date fund. Very simple. You’ve got your Roth accounts, which are just a global equity index fund. And the only thing you need to worry about is your taxable account. Taxable accounts always have issues because people will come in and they will have this list of stuff that they already own and guess what there’s a lot of embedded long-term capital gains in there and if you just sell it and go to a index portfolio you may not be doing the clients a good service because they’ll pay a tremendous amount of taxes and if they’re over 65 they’ll have to pay more for medicare ermor they’re going to lose their over 65 deduct i mean lots of bad things happen when you just sell out of a taxable account Rick Ferri (22:04.722)So there you’re going to be a little bit more tactical. know, you’re going to wait. The market will give us some opportunities to trade out of some stocks or some investments that may have losses. So you can then take those losses. You could sell other things to that have some gains to offset the losses. And I mean, you may never get out of everything that you’ve got in a taxable account. But the idea is to have this portfolio out there of say, a US total stock market index fund and a municipal bond fund. That you want to move towards. So as you’re selling these things off, you’re just putting the money in a US total stock market fund. And the reason I say US total stock market in a taxable account is because they’re so tax efficient. The dividend yield is down about 1.2%. They don’t distribute capital gains in an ETF. And that’s a great fund for a taxable portfolio. But you just can’t sell everything and buy it. You’ve got to crawl your way out of what you currently have. Frazer Rice (23:05.715)No, you have to do it thoughtfully or else you create hits that are unnecessary. So as we segue to the discipline portion here, one thing that’s popping up is the, I think the discipline to stay simple. The world out there, the US in particular, is making retirement accounts safe for alternative investments like private credit and private equity. Rick Ferri (23:10.256)Right. Frazer Rice (23:31.211)I just bristle and shudder because I think there’s a level of complexity and illiquidity that is misunderstood and it is going to be difficult, nay impossible, to properly educate people on where those things sit in the asset spectrum to the point where they justify their fees or anything like that. Maybe take us through what you think on that as we get to the discipline portion of how you sort of stay the course with this mindset. Rick Ferri (24:00.924)Well 401ks are allowing these private equity investments and private debt investments in, but I personally have not seen any of my clients and I have a lot of clients and I charge an hourly fee. So I’m not trying to sell anything or manage anybody’s money, but nobody’s asking for these things. where, where are they getting the idea that they should own them? Well, they’re getting from the people that were selling them, right? The people who are making fees from them. I haven’t seen any useful data that says that these things actually enhance your return. Alpha goes to the manager. I say that over and over again. If these things actually produced a higher rate of return than say just a corporate bond index fund, you’re not going to get it. It’s going to go to the advisor, it’s going to go to the manager, and all you’re going to do is take the risk. You’re going to take the risk and they’re going to get the excess return in the long term through fees. They don’t make any sense. You don’t do it. It’s just the rehash of active management and mutual funds, which has already been dismissed as not producing anything for you, the investor. It only generates fees for the people in the investment industry. This is just another iteration of that and we’ve already seen some cracks. Isn’t that what Jamie Dimon said? What are they cockroaches? I think is the word that he used in the private equity market. And yeah, I mean, this is not new. This is just a repackaging of ideas just that now they’ve been allowed to go into the 401k market. But you have to ask yourself why haven’t they been allowed to go into the 401k market for the last 40 years if they’ve been so great? It’s because the SEC Frazer Rice (25:31.978)Right. Rick Ferri (25:58.703)The Department of Labor said, no, we’re not going to allow these things in there. you give people enough rope to hang themselves. They’re not going to hang themselves, by the way. Somebody else is going to put the noose around their neck. And that’s the advisors who are doing that. Frazer Rice (25:59.499)Department of Labor and right. Frazer Rice (26:19.066)And I mean, a different podcast probably, but it’s something where the liability really is going to shift to the planned sponsors. I don’t care what happens and you know, they’re going to present these things and something’s going to blow up. And it’s like, know, you may you gave me the option and they’ve already those lawsuits already already proliferate. OK, so back to discipline a little bit here. What should people be doing in order to make sure they can carry carry out the. Rick Ferri (26:39.367)Yeah. Frazer Rice (26:47.147)What they’re doing in a systematic way and keep themselves safe from being distracted by all this noise. Rick Ferri (26:52.86)So again, that’s why we start out with the philosophy. You have to believe in the philosophy of simplicity and simple indexing. You can’t just jump to it because some TikTok video said buy index funds, okay? If you’re just jumping to it that way, then you’re not gonna have the discipline to stick with it because it’s just another phase or fad or whatever in your mind. You don’t really truly understand. Frazer Rice (27:14.346)Mm-hmm. Rick Ferri (27:22.32)Why you’re doing it this way. So it gets back to the philosophy. Really got to understand the philosophy and why this works better than 98 % of everything else out there over your lifetime. And then you create the strategy for yourself and now you’re working towards completing that. Again, in the retirement account it’s done quickly, but in your taxable account it could take a while. The discipline is while you’re getting your portfolio in line, the first thing you need to do from a discipline standpoint is actually do it. Actually go to your 401k and change what you’re investing in. Because so many people will do the strategy, but it never gets actually implemented. Or maybe it gets 50 % implemented. It never gets old. It doesn’t, I don’t want to say never, because I have a lot of clients who do fully implement it, but I also have clients that I’ve given them the plan and three years later or five years later they come back and they haven’t done anything. Okay. And so I say, you need to implement the plan. Nothing has changed. So you got to, the plan first off has to be implemented fully. And then once it gets implemented fully, it’s a lot easier to maintain it. But if it never gets implemented fully, then of course you can’t maintain it. So implementation of the plan fully is the first discipline, the first part of discipline. And then once that’s done, maintaining it. In other words, not being drawn off course. Yeah, it’s fine to say, the price of oil is gonna shoot through the roof because what’s going on in the Middle East, so I’m gonna buy an energy index fund. That sounds like something I should do. No, it’s something you could think about. Something might be interesting, but it’s not something you should do. So discipline transcends the urge to do things. In other words, like John Bogle said, don’t just do something, stand there. And that takes more going back and remembering why you have this philosophy, going back and looking at the data. Rick Ferri (29:46.151)going to the right place to find information. And I’ll mention the bogeyheads.org website to go back and remind yourself why you’re doing this. If you’re gonna stick with it and these things help you stick with it. The more you automate things too, the better it is. Like we’re in a 401k just automatically invest in the target date fund and don’t do anything else. So automation helps you as well. Frazer Rice (30:05.736)Hey, hey. Frazer Rice (30:14.109)No question, if you can take these things out of your own hands in many ways and delegate it out and it happens automatically, just a chance of success on that front. And then if life intervenes and things need to be adjusted, you deal with it at that point and not have CNBC or the world news whipsaw your viewpoint on these different things. So as we wind down here, just talk a little bit about the service that you provide, sort of these larger family office clients, because I think in a lot of times they gravitate toward complexity, they gravitate toward FOMO investing and how you help to center that back to this worldview so that they get where they’re going at scale at sort of that ultra high net worth world and remind them of you how they got there and how to not be how to not leave by by getting cast aside into these different whirlpools that are out there Rick Ferri (31:13.778)That’s a great question. So you got to pick your advisors well. So some of my clients have a net worth over a billion dollars. I have several clients that have several hundreds of millions of dollars and believe me, They have simple portfolios, total stock market, total international municipal bonds. It’s all they have. And it may seem strange, but they don’t have these limited partnerships that you can’t get out of or syndicated deals that may sound good. I say to them, you don’t have enough money to own those, meaning that if you’ve only got $100 million, you’re just chump change to the Goldman Sachs of the world or the Morgan Stanley’s. When it comes to who’s going to get the good deal on a the next private equity deal or venture capital fund. You’re the person they sell the leftovers to. I know it’s hard to people to accept this. They think they have a lot of money if they have a hundred million. But the fact is they don’t. I mean, if you’re not sitting on five, ten billion dollars, you’re not going to get preferential treatment. You’re going to get you might get lucky. Just like everything else, the coin flip idea, but most of the time you’re not going to end up coming out ahead. That’s not the way they make you feel when they sell you these things. They make you, even if you had a million dollars and your Wells Fargo broker is trying to sell you some limited partnership, they’re going to make it feel like you’re very special and that this is a very special deal that is just for you. Frazer Rice (32:46.505)You Rick Ferri (32:50.322)And that’s how it’s going to be sold to you. But in the end, when you look at your performance and you say, I want to get out of this thing and you can’t, you realize at that point that maybe you shouldn’t have done it to begin with. And I’ve had experience going back 30 years working with some of the very largest families in the country, some magnificent seven IPO families, and they all want to get back to simplicity. They want to get rid of all of the stuff that they had gotten. And it’s true. And it’s better for estate planning as well because you need to transfer these things eventually to somebody else’s name. Frazer Rice (33:35.785)you’ve triggered me. I’m dealing with this on multiple levels, on multiple different things, and I’ve had to be trustee on some of the complexity and sort of sit Indian style and try to own your way through it. It’s brutal. So. Rick Ferri (33:53.81)Wouldn’t it be so much nicer just to have, let’s say, a single total stock market ETF to have to deal with rather than all that other stuff? Frazer Rice (34:01.807)No question. OK, so as we wind down here, how do listeners and watchers find you? Rick Ferri (34:09.478)Well, they can find me at Rickferri.com. I’m not currently and I won’t be taking on any new clients. I’m sorry for that, but I have a set clientele and that’s all that I am working with and I won’t be expanding my clientele. But there are other people that do this that believe in what I do. And you can go to Rickferry.com and you could find their names there. But me personally, you can find me on Rickferry.com. I’ve written several books about this. I’m writing another one. And but I apologize that I’m not off the market as far as hiring me personally. Frazer Rice (34:45.645)I love it. But at the same time, your books and your other ways that get out there, they are on RickFerri.com. So we’ll have that in the show notes. In the meantime, Rick, thanks for being on. Rick Ferri (34:52.07)Yes, exactly. Thank you. https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Actually-Intelligent-Decision-Making-1-ebook/dp/B07FPQJJQT/

“Music of the Triduum”, a concert performed by the Thomas Aquinas College, New England Choir & Orchestra on April 16, 2026, as part of the 2025-26 St. Vincent de Paul Lecture & Concert Series. Choir and orchestra organized and conducted by Matthew Santos (NE'26). - 00:11 — “Adagio for Strings in G Minor” | Albinoni - 07:03 — “Stabat Mater” | Pergolesli - 11:11 — “Ave Verum Corpus” | Mozart - 14:19 — St. John's Passion, BWV 245, No. 39, Chorus: “Ruht Wohl” | Bach - 24:21 — Membra Jesu Nostri, No. 3: “Ad Manus” | Buxtehude | Soloists: Rose Reilly (NE'27), Helena Krestyn - 34:32 — Membra Jesu Nostri, No. 7: “Ad Faciem” | Buxtehude - 43:02 — Easter Oratorio, BWV 249, Chorus: “Kommt Eilet und Laufet” | Bach | Soloists: Samuel Livingston (NE'26), William Rosa (NE'27) - 48:14 — Christ Lag in Todes Banden, BWV 4, Versus 2: “Den Tod Niemand Zwingen Kunnt” | Bach | Soloists: Maureen Shields (CA'30), Eleanor Stoutz (NE'26) - 52:13 — “The Messiah”, Part 2, No. 44: “Hallelujah” | Handel - 56:24 — “The Messiah”, Part 3, No. 53A: “Worthy Is the Lamb” | Handel

Do you ever feel like you have a laundry list of reasons why you can't ever take a break from your practice? Kiera is here to say, if that's how you're feeling, it's time to step away. In this episode, listeners get to take a breather. Kiera talks about the two parts of success (the "suck" part and the success part), and what you can do to hit a mental restart. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners, this is Kiera and I hope today is such a great day for you. I hope that you're loving your life. I hope that you are enjoying it. And if you're not, today's podcast might be for you. Today is about when leadership gets heavy, how CEOs navigate the seasons you can't step away from. And this actually was a little bit of a self-medication for myself because when I ⁓ was actually getting ready to podcast the last time, I had a little bit of a breakdown.   And I just realized I was going at a pace that I wasn't able to sustain. And I felt very trapped. I felt like what happens as a CEO when you literally feel like you can't step away? Like you're in it. You bought the practice, you're in debt. I was actually just reading a book. It was a total fantasy book. And it was ⁓ about this little veterinarian who opened his practice to kind of prove a point to his parents, but also because he loved his craft and loved his work. And then he starts dating this girl and   she's on the other coast and long story short, they're like flying back and forth coast to coast. And he doesn't have money because he's got the practice. He's got the debt. He's got a team ⁓ and he wants to see his girlfriend. And so he's picking up ER shifts and moonlighting and so much so that he literally like drags his body into oblivion and gets so sick. And what was really crazy in the book is I feel like as I was reading it, I told Jason, I was like, this is my doctor's, this is me.   So many of us feel this way, right? You've got the debt, you've got this, you have a laundry list of reasons why you feel like you can't step away. And I will say like, if that's you, then it's time for you to step away. And I think in ownership, there are seasons where it's hard. And so today I kind of wanted to address like, what do you do and what are some tactical things when you're in this boat? And if you're in that boat today, hi, I'm Kiera. I'd love to be friends. Reach out, just even as a friend, if it's a pen pal, if you want to talk, if you want me give you tactical advice on your practice, reach out, I will happily help you.   If you're not in that boat, hi, I'm Kiera and I'm either preparing you or speaking to your future you because all of us will go through that. And I don't think it's a one and done. It's an ever flowing. It's an ebbing and flowing. And so there are seasons and ownership where it's freaking hard and it doesn't mean you're failing. It doesn't mean your practice is broken. It just means that we're growing and it's stretching our leadership. I remember thinking, I've talked about this on the podcast before. It's like throwback OG status or talk about like penguins, molting or snakes like sloughing off their skin.   And what happens is we actually grow bigger than what we're capable of. We grow bigger than what our skin is. grow, like our practice outgrows the leadership style that we are. There's a book called like, what got you here won't get you to where you want to go. And it's the same principle of like, we have to grow. And if you go back to being a child, growing pains don't feel good. I don't know if you guys remember like your legs hurt and your body hurts and like.   you, my little nephews and nieces, they wake up in the middle of the night with like leg aches because they're growing. Like it's painful. And I think we forget. And then as adults, we don't realize that like you get to go through it again. When you go through growth of leadership or your practice grows and you got to evolve into the next version of yourself to sustain that. And that's not comfortable either. you guys know, some of you been listening for a while. You know, I went to Antarctica, slight flex. ⁓ and it was amazing. It was honestly one of the most life-changing trips I've ever been on.   it was a place where I felt like I was navigating the most beautiful, serene scenery where no one's there and knowing that I could die. Like people die there. Like the Antarctic has nothing. It's freezing cold there. ⁓ I thought it would be covered in snow and it wasn't felt kind of like Utah-esque in the winter. ⁓ but like it was, I mean, that water is cold and you can see penguins like swimming through the water. It's so clean. It's so crisp. Nothing has touched that part of the world. It's very, very incredible. but I remember when I was there,   I was watching penguins and they were actually in molting season and they told us all like, don't get close to the penguins, just let them be. And they were like, they're in so much pain. And what these penguins were having to do is they sat there and like, you literally could see the like anger, sadness, pain in these little penguins. And they were sitting there. Cause what they have to do is they have to molt off all their feathers because their feathers are not the ones that they have on. They're not waterproof. And so they would actually drown when going into the water. So they have to molt all of those off.   get their like slippery ones and then they can go into the water and they just sit there and you see feathers flying everywhere. But I think like that image of a penguin is how I think a lot of CEOs feel and how a lot of office managers feel when we're going through this and we're being stretched and it's just annoying and you feel like, ⁓ I wanted this practice. I wanted this business, but I didn't want this. Well, I just want to remind you that success has two parts to it. There's suck and there's the success part. You can't have both sides of the coin without it. The word literally says it. And I think we sometimes forget, I think   For myself, I sometimes feel like I've already been through this. I should have to go through it again. But there's a call to a higher level. There's a call for us to be stronger leaders. And so what do you freaking do when it's hard and you feel like you can't escape? So I think that people believe that as you grow and evolve and get bigger and bigger, it gets easier. And I don't believe it actually does. Traction had a very strong quote at the end of it. And I'm not going to quote it exactly. I'll paraphrase it. But the book Traction by Gina Wickman, you guys know I'm obsessed with that model. I'm obsessed with running on EOS. I love helping practices.   be Dental A Team's version of it. We don't do true EOS. We do Dental A Team's version because I like to mix two things that I think actually work better for dental practices. But what I found is he said at the end, like a lot of people think getting bigger practices and bigger businesses actually equate to more profit and less headache and it doesn't. I remember him talking about like a $10 million practice versus $100 million practice. They both made the same amount of money, but there were way more headaches in the $100 million versus the $10 million. And   That has resonated with me for years. Now, if you're trying to sell to a DSO where you're trying to get multiples, of course you need to get it to a larger number. But if you're trying to do it for the long haul, sometimes having it smaller is actually easier. But again, this is your vision, your dream. For me, could I say small make my life easier? Theoretically, but my goal is to impact every single dental practice in this world to possibly reach you, influence you, work with you if it feels right. But my goal is to have the largest impact in dentistry I possibly can.   That's not going to be me playing small and I recognize that, but that also means that I can't sit here and complain because that's the choice I made. I can be frustrated and I can be annoyed and I can feel those feels, but I'm not allowed to sit here and have that. At least that's my opinion. So because I believe that it gets bigger and I'm called to swim in deeper water. And I also believe that I get stronger by carrying it. And you start to realize like, this is just part of business. And I'm sure it's how parents feel when you got one baby and it's so scary and then you get two and then you get three and then you get four. And it's like, yep, this is just how babies are. It's the same thing with business ownership. So   I think that when we feel pressure, it's often a sign of expansion, not failure. And so just a couple of things of tips and ideas of what to do. Number one, I will say, just go on a vacation if you can. I know sometimes it doesn't feel like it's the right thing to do. It feels very counterproductive. Myself, I was very much in the throes of it. Like I said, Dental A Team is going through such a fun ⁓ evolution. Like it is fun for me to sit as a visionary and to see where our team and our company are going and just to be freaking lit up.   with the clients we're serving and the team that we're building and like all of this is moving in motion. And then when I come into the weeds, I'm like, wow, this is really fun. This is a lot. And I think that it can get very heavy sometimes. And I was sitting in therapy and I was like, I just don't know what to do. And she's like, Kirit, it's just a season where it's hard and we accept it we just get through every day of whatever we can. We know this isn't forever. You've got a good perspective on that. And she's like, and if you can take a vacation. So I took a week off to Iceland.   And ⁓ it was great. was freezing cold. The Northern Lights were truly one of the most incredible things I've ever seen in my entire life. Like truly top five. And I have traveled to a lot of really cool places in my life. I've seen a lot of really amazing things. Seeing the Northern Lights dance across the sky when it's freezing cold and you are able to visibly see with your naked eye green and pink. I didn't have a strong to see some of the other colors, but I was able to see a very light pink and also bright vibrant green.   To see that whimsically like dance across the sky is amazing. So going on vacation can be such a relief, but you have to actually truly check out. So when I go on vacations and this has been Kiera's style, so take it if it's beneficial for you or not. And I think every team member should also do the same thing. ⁓ I delete Slack, I delete email, and I actually don't buy service international. Now you might have family, you might have friends that you got to, let them know.   But if there's a way I completely check out I become a very much princess passenger My husband has all the maps on his phone. He does all the things The only thing I have on my phone is I have Kindle and I have quite a few books that I tend to read Depending upon how stressed I've been I often try to curate a trip for me a lot of just like I need to bring it down So we actually stayed at a retreat in a lodge. It was very cold. So it was very cozy I watched a lot of trash TV like love is blind Lincoln lawyer, you name it like I had a decent amount of that   And it is truly just to bring my cortisol levels down, to bring that adrenaline down and to re-regulate my nervous system and to just chill. We went to a Blue Lagoon Retreat Spa. It was so lovely. I take as many naps as I want. Like it is a genuine disconnect. No team members, no clients, nothing. And I don't turn my phone back on. I have my team. They have a whole thing prepared for me. So when I get back, it's like, here are all the updates, here are all the things.   but they know unless it's like literally an emergency, which we've already gone through. Like if there's something, here's all the contact people for X, Y, Z. Like there truly shouldn't be anything that you need to contact me for. And if there is great, we're gonna fix it when I get back. I'm gone for a week. But I think you just being able to disconnect to check out, it's one of the greatest gifts. I had a client that I recommended they do this and they did, and they said, Kiera, we'll never like be the same. It was the best thing we ever did for ourselves because you genuinely go from high pressure,   down to like calm. And I've had it where I've gone other times and I like just say like, I'll just like check in on a few things. Well, when you're checking in, you're still like, there's this umbilical cord almost where you're still tethered to your practice and you can't ever fully like calm. So I will say like that is just one like off the wall tip for you if you can do it. And for me, I try to schedule a week trip at least once a quarter where I'm completely just disconnected. I don't always get that at least two per year.   ⁓ But I think it's also very important for me to do it. I also try to take like Fridays as just CEO mental days where I am disconnected, not there. Sometimes I need to do CEO laundry where I just got to catch up on a bunch of things. But if I can disconnect, not be in Slack, I show up as a better leader. And I think that these are subtle ways to get through the hard. ⁓ I also think when we look at hard, we often think of it as wrong. And so it's like, what's broken, what's wrong, how do I do this? And like growth is pressure. So more patience, more complexity, more team.   more leadership, more revenue, more decisions, like more, a bigger practice, more responsibility. Like it's just what it is, more opportunities, more legalities. Like it just is. And so pressure means that their practice is stretching into the next version. And so I just want you to know, I have coached and our team has coached hundreds of offices that have been going through this. Like this is what we go through. when you see it,   The practice isn't no, I tell people a lot of times I'm on the other side of the river. I've actually gone from where you are to where you want to be. And we know how to navigate as a guide across that river and do it in the least painful way, but it's still like, it's going to be painful. I've got a doctor and they're a startup and they're like, this sucks and it's hard. And like nothing feels right. And I'm on the verge of bankruptcy. And I'm like, guess what? You are a business owner. This is real life, but they're profitable. And even $500 a profit or a thousand dollars of profit doesn't feel great. Most off most businesses are not profitable for like three to four years when they first start out. And yet.   you are being profitable. So I also think like, don't see it as hard, see it as growth and also celebrate the freaking wins as you get them. I believe what we focus on we get and we attract more of. If I'm constantly saying like, they say race car drivers, like they're not looking at the next turn because they're gonna wreck. It's like they've got to look down the line and if you don't, you will literally wreck and hit it. And so I think for us, like if I'm constantly saying, I'm gonna go bankrupt or this is so hard or my team is terrible, you create more of it. literally.   turn your brain on to say, need more of this and I'm gonna look for it, I'm going to find it. Versus the other one of like, my team is doing great, we've got these good things, like there's momentum, I've got great patients, our cases are closing. And you're not lying to yourself, but we're celebrating those little wins and we're stringing more of those together. You're going to create more of that. And I think it can be so easy. As a consultant, I am literally wired to look for everything wrong. And I have to find it and figure out like, what's wrong is always available and so is what's right.   Both are gonna give me different outcomes and both are gonna give me different experiences. Which one do you choose to do more of? So I think like when you look at it, when I'm looking at this, is this a breakdown or is it a gross signal? What's going so well versus what's going so wrong? Maybe incorporating a gratitude journal, maybe having some like quiet times. It's not just like problem after problem after problem, maybe setting up meetings so like our problems get pinned to only once a week so you can handle it easier. That would be that.   Another tip when things like feel like you can't step away is like laser in on what you can actually focus on. I, it's funny, I'm looking around and if you're watching the video, you can see I have currently six, I used to have seven of those giant sticky pads sitting in my office on the other side of this camera. I have one of like our leadership structure. I've got one of an entire plan. I've got one of a future vision. I've got one of a CEO mantra. I've got one of Dental A Team's visions, my goals. And then I've got my like,   legit priorities and I've got four of them and I have them listed in order. And I think when things feel so chaotic, sometimes like bringing that leadership focus and scope in is like everything feels urgent and you try to fix it all. And honestly, if you've read the book, Essentialism, it has all the arrows and like you literally are spinning freaking top versus like what is number one priority? And I need to do that because if I try to do everything, this is how CEOs burnout. ⁓ And instead, like we need to train ourselves that there's bubbling pots constantly.   What's the biggest bubbling pot that's gonna move me forward the fastest and that's where I focus. And so it's like, what are the one or two things that protect operational like our practice stability right now and everything else is temporarily perfect. Temporarily perfect. Temporarily imperfect is perfect. And I want you to just have it like for me, there's so many things. If you want me to laundry list it all the way out, great. But I know that like, what are the one or two things right now that I need to go take care of and handle and everything else gets to be temporarily imperfect, which is perfect.   So when I have offices that do this, an example is they're trying to go and it's like, we need to hire an associate. We need to fix our hygiene department. We need to work on our scheduling. We need to fix our guarantees. We need to fix our case acceptance. We need to fix this. It can get exciting and overwhelming. And this is what I love of helping people get like an annual vision and a quarterly vision because it cuts the noise out. So when we focus in and we're like, okay, of all those things, what things need to happen now to get us to where we ultimately want to go? And if you know where your vision is of where you ultimately want to go,   It becomes so much easier for you to then filter through. And to me, that's a great filtering process. And I hope you actually like have this in place. And if not great, we're amazing at it. Reach out. I'd love to help you get there. You've got to have a vision. You got to figure out what's most important this quarter to get us there. You want to hire the associate, want to fix hygiene. You want to do all these things. But guess what? Us trying to do all those things is what causes the chaos, the burnout, the feeling like we're shackled to our companies and we can't leave versus recognizing. And this is like an ego dip, but it's freeing is not all that's going to get fixed today.   And these are the one or two things. My CEO mantra, would you guys like to hear it? Like, let me just help you guys out with this. Because I think it's really, really, really beneficial. My CEO mantra says saying no equals happiness. I started saying no a lot more and I realized like, wow, I am exponentially happier. The second one I have is I have more power than I think own it. I think a lot of times we feel like everybody else has the power and you are just kind of beholden to them. And this is not an ego power trip. It's more like, no.   I can make these decisions. can have some hard conversations. There is more power that I own rather than my team owning it or people are going to quit on me. Those are all what I've said, it might happen, but you have a lot more power than you think you do. ⁓ I said, don't be afraid of losing people. I've had some team changes and I remember I was so afraid, literally terrified. I'm squeezing my hands thinking back. was a ⁓ fractional team player and I was just super, super, super anxious about it.   And I sat on it and it was two days of pure health and then it was over. And I think a lot of times hard decisions of team members or decisions, usually it's like maybe two days of pain with a lot more freedom. So don't forget that. I said, focus on one thing a day, the rest works itself out. So every day I just pick one thing, this is my one thing I'm gonna work on and the rest truly does work itself out. ⁓ I said, I need to have two people in every position that knows it so that way I'm never feeling like trapped.   or beholden and I need to have systems written down. have like, pick your number and focus and cut fat regularly. So assess it, figure out like, where am I off to make sure that I'm keeping myself level headed and then take 10 minutes, like the calm or meditate whenever things are hard. So just a reminder, like I'm allowed to take a 10 minute timeout at any time. I know you feel like you got patience there, but if things feel like they're just bubbling and over you, that's kind of my CEO mantra. Like, hey, Kiera, when things are hard and it's literally like,   It's up here. I just read it to you. can see my eyes up there. I have them. And as other things come up, like I said, like take vacations regularly, showing up as my best self is the best thing I can do for my team. Those are a few other CEO mantras that maybe can help you out. And then I think the last one is like, when we look at it, we kind of like get rid of this emotional, like highs and lows for consistency. like, it's really easy as a CEO to want to like, whoo.   like whiplash and I've done this to my team a lot and when I'm in it, it's like you're trying to figure it out. You're trying to get there and you're trying to just like force the movement. So we got new rules, new priorities, new frustrations and instability is when it like is what teams feel. They don't feel the pressure. And so your job as a CEO and as an OM, as leaders of the practices to make sure that you're driving the stability. Like they know that there's problems. Like you don't need to be fearless. We just need to have predictability and sometimes slowing the innovations or the changes or the evolution.   I called my team out and I was like, Hey guys, we are been in a shaking snow globe. Every role is different. We've got people going out maternally. We've got new people coming in. We're growing. The company is really like a three month old company, even though we're in business for almost 10 years. And that's such a shift. And when I had that aha moment and we're like, cool, no new initiatives roll out. Let's just get everybody really, really, really solid in their new job descriptions. Cause like we had it where poor Shelbi was like being an EA and a marketer and a sales and like   every single position and we've had to untangle that ball of yarn and Britt was doing the same thing and Tip was doing the same thing and I was doing the same thing. So you got to like hire new people and have new people in there. Well, sometimes just recognizing that. So it's like, stop rolling new initiatives. We were trying to change our operating system and change this and change that. And finally we're like, whoa, this is the chaos. Our team needs to feel stable. They need to feel like they can move forward with stability and consistency rather than feeling like.   Holy cow, I don't know how to use anything here. And so I think when we help offices, so I'm thinking of an office right now and we were going through a pretty radical leadership shift change. We didn't do anything else. I've had a coach tell me you make one major like personnel change per quarter, whether it's in or out. If you get more than that, it feels chaotic. And so when you can actually like go through that chaotic quarter and instead of having it, it's like we keep as much as we can the same. So meetings stay the same so people can count on that.   our expectations are the same. So we've got our KPIs, everybody, if you just hit your one number, we're good. And then like communication style. So you as a CEO, I realize that I'm here to show up, like gotta start setting like, these are foundational pieces, these are core pieces, these are things that are true to our company that our team can count on. And then there will be more seasons of growth. But I think like staying focused, production stronger because we cut out the noise. I think essentialism is a really, really, really great book. Or the one thing, another great book.   I think during those times where you feel like leadership is hard and I'm trapped is because you got so much going on, which is not wrong. It's there. Like we're going through a pressure cooker. We're trying to get to the other side. But I think when you can minimize, less is more. Like I said, pick one thing every day and realize the rest works out. This is when stability comes and what teams can trust when pressure's rising. It's also what you can count on as a CEO and an OM. We got to have that stability. And I actually think that's what I love about being a consultant is we're able to provide that stability.   while you're going through the changes and having someone constant. Like I have leaned on my coaches more through these growth periods than I have, gosh, probably in the last like five years and to have them just stabilize me, steady me so that way I can show up as a steady leader. And that's why I love what we do for our coaching is we coach doctors and team members because doctors, need a different type of coaching than teams do. You need to, we get you as a business owner, like being a freaking CEO versus a manager, two different worlds. How do we help you? This is why we have in-person mastermind. So you realize you're not alone.   One of my favorite comments at our last mastermind, we have in-person masterminds that we do and they're amazing. I literally had a client have ruptured eardrums and like begged her auntie to give her a sign up so she could come. I'm like that much love for these is far beyond what I imagined them to be. ⁓ But I remember at one of the masterminds, someone raised their hand and they said, Kiera, it's so great to realize all these other offices here are dealing with the same thing I am. I realized, I thought I was alone. And I think that this is the pressure cooker.   We think we're the only one there. We feel like we can't reach out to anybody. This is you need a community around you too, to reach out to friends. I have a dear friend and I call him and I was like, this frigging sucks and it's hard. And like, I just feel like I can't get through it. As you heard, I talked to my therapist. I have friends that I go to. I have really, really, really trusted mentors who have gone through what I've gone through that can guide me through. I don't just do this alone when it's hard. I have my husband and I also have myself. And I think sometimes the noise I need to center in too much is too crazy.   Therapy is literally there for me to help regulate my emotions and make sure like I stay as a human being very centered. What do need to do for meditations? How do I keep my mind sharp? That's what my therapist job is. So to talk about the business, it's not to give me any business advice. Like that's not her world. Her job is literally to give me mental stamina and sanity to come through. My gym trainer literally make my body freaking strong and like make sure I stay like healthy and eating well as I go through this. My business coach. I have one business coach and she helps with a lot of like the number. Like that's her only lane and that's what I use her for.   I have a traction coach who actually helps us quarterly and he's helping me with our leadership team transitions and evolution because he's been there and he does this in multi-million dollar businesses much larger than ours and can see the foresight. That's it. That's all the noise. It's the only people that get to talk to me during these times. And then I have a financial advisor if I'm needing to make any of those decisions financially. Each person has their lane and like I lean on my business coach probably the hardest of all because I'm like, all right, work through this with me, work this one out with me, help me with my team on this, work with my team on that.   That one's the one I use the absolute most. Like that is the tool that's used the most, but I use the other ones for different pieces. And I think when you look at this, like it can be hard, but I think it's hard when we do it alone versus when we do it. And we realize like, it doesn't have to be this forever. as a couple things, number one, go on a vacation if you can. ⁓ Number two, change it. It's not broken. It's just like, we're growing and it's evolving. Number three, stabilize your practice as much as you can. Four,   make sure that we are reducing the noise and reducing our focus. So that way we're really focused on this one or two. then number five, think is what number I'm on. I think is where I'm at. Number five is the CEO mantra and having it pick one thing, realize that like saying no to more and stabilizing is going to create a lot of happiness. These things like these hard seasons don't define great CEOs. And what I found is CEOs and OMS that are going through it. I'm like, you asked for this, you were bored and now you're annoyed because you're having to mull and you're having to grow and it's annoying.   But like you ultimately wanted this and your soul was craving this. So like, let's also celebrate that. ⁓ I also think like how you lead through this sets the tone for your team. And I think for you as a leader and a CEO, for you to take care of yourself, there's some days it's okay to call a timeout. It's okay to take a 10 minute calm timeout. I've really found love with Taoism. It's not religion. It's more of just mindsets and flow. A lot of people love the calm app, whatever it is for you, but have a space for you to just call timeout, allow your brain to calm down.   For me, I shut off at five o'clock and I go home. I don't care if there's other stuff that goes on. Guess what? It's going to work itself out and it forces me to work during the day rather than at home. I go for a walk as soon as I'm done. I change up my energy. I change up my rhythm. You might be driving home. So that changes it up for you. Have like a start and stop. Do things that inspire you. Make sure I'm working out three times a week and eating really healthy because I know that's going to sustain my energy. think for this is I know we're not looking for easy, but we're trying to have it where we're building for being sustainable. And I think for you like   Realizing that if it's harder now, you're not off track. Maybe there are some ways, and I do think having a coach, guide that can give you quote unquote the shortcuts or help you even like clear the fog and navigate forward is what we're obsessed with doing. ⁓ Most practices will go through these stretches and they go through them multiple times. ⁓ And I think it's like, you don't need less growth. You need stronger structure to support it. And I'm watching offices that have been killing it. And now they're going to the next layer and it's like, that's hard again. So it's going to be.   but I also believe as souls, like happiness equals progress. That's why we crave it. That's why we want to do it. When we're on the other side of what we forget, just like moms keep having babies cause they forget how hard labor was and they're like, yeah, like let's have another one. Same thing with businesses. Yeah, let's grow it again. Let's involve it. because we have this goal and this drive, I believe to serve more, to love more, to experience more, to have more fulfillment. That doesn't mean your practice has to be larger. It can, if that's your dream. It can also be more intentional, but I believe that like,   This is what you were called to do. And if this is something we can help you with, if you still feel stuck, like I said, I've got my core people. And if we can be one of those core people that can be cutting out the noise, driving you, driving your team, helping you get the stability as you go through it, don't do this alone. You don't have to. And you don't, it's like not necessary. And so reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Like I said, we will be able to help you have levels of confidence. And we've done this through every single phase of growth. Like I said, from startups, clear to multi-million, multi-locations. ⁓ And there's different.   different systems, different leadership, different pieces needed for every stage of growth, just like with children. And I think for you to just remember you're doing better than you think you are, give yourself the time out. It's okay to call it sick one day. It's not okay to call it sick every day or to not see patients cause you're overwhelmed. We've got to re-regulate. You do still need to show up as a boss, as a dentist, as a CEO. And you need to be the leader of your practice. And I'd love to help you guys. So reach out, Hello@TheDentalATeam.com or go on to our website, TheDentalATeam.com book a call, no pressure, just clarity, giving you a map, giving you guidance, giving you   I think just resources when it can feel noisy. And I want you to know that leadership is not proven on our easy days. It's truly revealed on the hard days. Who you show up as when it's hard is like really your leadership at a core and it's an evolution. So I want you to give yourself a freaking high five. I want you to look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that you love yourself, that you're doing really, really well, that you're really proud of yourself. And then you're going to go make it a great day. And we do one thing as we move through these hard seasons and reach out if we can help you.   ⁓ The future of your practice is being built right now, whether you like it or not. And I want you to remember that and who you are and how you show up is going to make all the difference. And so if we can help you reach out, and as always, I'm so grateful for you. I'm grateful for every one of you listening. And I hope that you know that and I hope that you feel that. And as always, thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.

Introducing the All Def SquADD Cast show “Versus". It's a podcast with the OG SquADD! Each week, the SquADD will debate topics and vote at the end to see what wins. Versus airs every Monday and you can download and listen wherever podcasts are found.Special GuestRoxxy HazeJordan Conley Kali ScottThis Week We DiscussPartner W/ Crazy Ex vs Partner W/ Bad ChildWatching with Subtitles vs. No Subtitles EverFlirtatious Partner vs Partner W/ No FriendsS/o To Our SponsorsFACTORHead to Factormeals.com/squadd50off and use code squadd50off to get 50 percent off and free daily greens per box, with new subscription only, while supplies last until 09/27/2026. (See website for more details).Blue ChewBlueChew.comRight now, when you buy two months of BlueChew Gold, you get the third for FREE with promo code SQUADD. That's promo code SQUADD. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information.

Lesley Logan and Brad Crowell dive into the highlights of Lesley's conversation with Billy Lahr, a Certified Mindfulness Meditation Teacher with a background in education and behavior change. They explore his perspective on comfort zones, breaking down the difference between being comfortable and becoming complacent, and why growth doesn't have to come from constant discomfort. From the importance of healthcare directives to the permission gap that keeps women selfless to a fault, this episode challenges you to take a more intentional approach to how you live and show up.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co mailto:beit@lesleylogan.co. And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free.In this episode you will learn about:Making healthcare decisions in advance using a free online resource.How to stretch one's comfort zone to avoid the complacency zone.The power of closing the permission gap to stop burnout.Why self-prioritization is the key to a grounded, centered life.How to leverage curiosity and consistency to build genuine passion.Episode References/Links:FreeWill - freewill.comOPC Spring Training (Virtual Event) - opc.me/events   2027 eLevate Mentorship Program - lesleylogan.co/elevatePilates Summer Tour - opc.me/tourFolding Pilates Mat - opc.me/foldingmatMindful Midlife Crisis - https://www.mindfulmidlifecrisis.comBilly Lahr Official Website - https://billylahr.comJump Start Conversation - https://mindfulmidlifecrisis.systeme.io/jumpstartconvoSubmit Your Questions - beitpod.com/questions If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! 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And what he was saying is, like, those are both actual extremes. Yeah, you know, what if we were grounded or self-centered? Or what if we focus about centered self, not like, in a negative way, but like, how do we—Lesley Logan 0:23  I know so—Brad Crowell 0:24  How can we be both of those things instead of like, one or the other? Lesley Logan 0:28  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. Brad Crowell 1:10  Take it away there, Lesley.Lesley Logan 1:13  Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co-host in life, Brad, and I are going to dig into the thought-provoking convo I had with Billy Lhar in our last episode. Brad Crowell 1:21  Yeah, we are. Lesley Logan 1:22  If you haven't listened to that interview, you should, you could pause this now and hear what I sound like, not with a sinus infection. And then, if you're new, you'll be like, this girl's voice sucks. I can't stand it. And then you'll stick it out. Brad Crowell 1:33  Yeah. Lesley Logan 1:34  You'll stick it out. Brad Crowell 1:34  Stick it out. You will— Lesley Logan 1:35  I promise you—Brad Crowell 1:36  You'll do that we believe in you. Lesley Logan 1:38  I promise you, this is not this, too shall pass. What if someone's like, oh, my God, I loved her voice when she had the science affection, and now, when it's gone, like, ugh. Lesley Logan 1:50  Well, today is April 16, 2026 and it's National Healthcare Decisions Day. Huh? Interesting. Let's see where this goes.Brad Crowell 1:58  (Laughs)Lesley Logan 1:59  This day is observed every year on April 16, the day after tax day interesting as well. Are you aware that there are times you might need to make some decisions about your health care, but be incapacitated to make them? Oh, this is an interesting okay, I thought I felt like the health insurance companies, but this is about us—Brad Crowell 2:13  No. Lesley Logan 2:14  This is—Brad Crowell 2:14  This is about in personal health care decisions that we can make. Lesley Logan 2:17  This day is set aside to help you take care of those potential situations ahead of time is a day for patients or healthcare receivers to make known to health professionals the kind of adequate care they wish to receive and have those wishes respected and met. Well, whether they'll be respected and met, are different stories in the United States healthcare situation, but I do agree we Brad and I are supposed to have sat down his parents are going to annoy us until we do and actually, like, talk about our Do Not Resuscitate stuff and all that. Brad Crowell 2:44  Yeah. It's like, called advanced direction, or something—Lesley Logan 2:47  Directive?Brad Crowell 2:48  Direct, yeah, Advanced Directive. Maybe that's it. Yeah. So we've been on a healthcare tour, and we've been— Lesley Logan 2:53  We are using the insurance we pay for. Brad Crowell 2:57  We absolutely are—Lesley Logan 2:58  We are annoying the hell out of them. We are going to use every benefit they say we pay for. Brad Crowell 3:03  Well, it's also not like a fast, quick decision. We started doing this, like, I don't know, 18 months ago? Lesley Logan 3:09  Oh yeah, it says it's taken you 18 months to get the results you got today. Brad Crowell 3:13  I'm not even kidding, it's insane to me. Lesley Logan 3:15  (Laughs) There's nothing wrong with you. Brad Crowell 3:15  Yeah, they were like, hey, everything's good up there. Your brain. I'm like, well, that makes me feel good, but what the heck it took that long anyway? Yeah, it's been a it's been a whirlwind, and we've been learning a lot of things. Just like you have a last will and testament, you also need to have something called an, I'm looking up now to get the exact phrasing of it. But like, what the last will test—Lesley Logan 3:40  You have to do it when you, like, do surgeries and stuff like that. So you have to, you should talk with your partners and your families about your wishes. Brad Crowell 3:46  Yeah, it's called a living will, or an Advanced Directive. It's a legal document for healthcare that outlines your treatment preferences if you become incapacitated— Lesley Logan 3:56  Oh, I, let me just tell you, you guys want to go on a journey. Because I remember, I remember, oh, my God, what was her name? It's not in my head, because I'm on Dayquil, but when I grew up, I remember she was on the cover of every tabloid magazine, and her husband was made out to be this big villain because he wanted to pull the plug. Brad Crowell 4:14  Oh, in Florida, yeah. Lesley Logan 4:17  Oh, you guys want to, okay, you're listening to a podcast. Go to the You're Wrong About Series. Go all the way back to the beginning. They have what is that woman's Sherry? Sherry. It's coming. Tyvo. Sherry Tyvo. Sherry Livo? Sherry—Brad Crowell 4:33  Tyvan? Lesley Logan 4:33  No, Sherry Tyvo Brad Crowell 4:37  Coma case.Lesley Logan 4:38  In Florida in the 90s.Brad Crowell 4:43  Terry. T Y—Lesley Logan 4:44  Terri Schiavo! Brad Crowell 4:45  Schiavo. Lesley Logan 4:46  Not I had, oh my God!Brad Crowell 4:47  You did. You had it backwards. Lesley Logan 4:48  Woah! I had Sherry Tyvo. Brad Crowell 4:50  (Inaudible)Lesley Logan 4:50  And it's Terri Schiavo. You guys, the more Adderall I am, the more dislikes like I think I am. I think it's just showing that I am okay. So, Terri Schiavo, her, go listen to You're Wrong About. That husband was not the villain that the tabloids made him out to be, and her family made it out to be, and then the Bush Administration got involved, became this whole Supreme Court thing. And let me just tell you, they, people in this country will keep you on life support against your will. It happened to the black woman Atlanta who was forced to stay, this happened in the last year. Her family was forced to keep her on life support because she was six months pregnant. Then they made her stay on life support until the baby was viable, to live without her at the time we're recording this, that baby is still in the NICU cannot survive on its own. So we need laws that protect people, and then we need advanced directives, because what we don't want is the government getting involved. That's what you don't want. I mean that this is not a very uplifting conversation. So go (Laughs)Brad Crowell 5:52  Let's, let's, let's shift back to how we can take care of this for yourself, like today's about making a decision for yourself. So there's a couple different things that you can do. You can, you know, if you have been meaning to make that doctor's appointment, just do it today's the day do it. Set aside a little bit of time today to, like, actually get the ball rolling. Because the problem, like, I know what the problem is. The problem is that it never is fast. You call, it's freaking voicemail. Like, like, nothing seems to flow. And so you have to call back 10 times. I literally had to drive across the street to this doctor's office two times to schedule my fucking appointment. It's insane. So I understand how frustrating that can be, but if you don't start now, it will never happen. Lesley Logan 6:33  Well, you won't have you won't have the team in place when you need them. And I will say, like in our journey of making sure that we have a team of healthcare professionals that are local, I have been able to find doctors that actually give a fuck, like my my gynecologist, who does my my hormone treatment in Vegas. She gives such a fuck that I have a breast doctor. That breast doctor has me on an MRI next week, and then in six months, I'm mammogram, and that's where I'm at until and then she'll and then she's gonna get me to the plastic surgeon to talk about my options. Like they will help advocate for you if you really do advocate for yourself. Like I found, like, it's kind of amazing when you get into it. Now, do I have what I complained when I said, I hate this imaging place. She's like, just drive there and make the appointment. It's faster. And I was like, are you kidding me? But it is. She's like, it's just fast, it's just the way it has to go. I know in the year of our Lord 2026, but it is what it is. And here's another trick for your doctor's office. Call billing, billing. Billing always answers. Brad Crowell 7:32  Billing always answers. Lesley Logan 7:33  So my gynecologist, before I leave. I always say, when you want to see me again, because I'm just gonna book it on my way out, because that's the best thing. And she's like, it is the best thing. I said, oh, you want to what the other hack is, it's just like, is? And she's like, what I said, my assistant calls billing, they always answer. And she goes, oh my God. She's like, you are crazy, but she loves me. So what I highly recommend take the steps it becomes, it's like, part of your adulting life. Pick an hour every week to do adulting, and you'll be glad you did, because things will happen and you're not going to want to be up the creek without a paddle. Brad Crowell 8:02  Yeah, you're not going to be up the Advanced Health Care Directive without a paddle. I was just poking around, and there is a very interesting free service provider that will do Last Will and Testament, Revocable Living Trust, Advanced Health Care Directive, Power of Attorney, and it's called freewill.com. Lesley Logan 8:24  That's crazy. Brad Crowell 8:25  They do not sponsor us, but I think it's pretty amazing. And they actually have, I was just poking around, they actually have, like, a guided for last will and testament. They have a guided will maker that covers all 50 states. Lesley Logan 8:37  You know who I need to interview. I interview a will maker. How do we be it till we see it in this Advanced Directive? Like— Brad Crowell 8:43  That'll be cool. Lesley Logan 8:43  What is that like? What are all the things I need to know? What should be in my will? Who should not be in my will? You know all that stuff.Brad Crowell 8:50  And well. And then FreeWill also has for the advanced directive of healthcare stuff. They have a free one that's also guided through all the all the states. So they, they seem to have their shit together. They're actually funded by— Lesley Logan 9:00  If you're in a different country I have no idea how to help you there, but—Brad Crowell 9:02  They're funded by a nonprofit or a charity, so they're totally free, pretty crazy. Lesley Logan 9:06  Wow. Brad Crowell 9:06  Yeah. Lesley Logan 9:07  Okay. The skeptic in me is like, who is funding this? Brad Crowell 9:10  (Laughs) Lesley Logan 9:10  The Peter Thiel—Brad Crowell 9:11  Yeah, right? Lesley Logan 9:12  (Laughs)Brad Crowell 9:13  About FreeWill, who we are— Lesley Logan 9:15  This is really what they're interested in. They're like, dying to know. Brad Crowell 9:18  Yeah, right? Lesley Logan 9:18  But you have to look up these things, because there is a nonprofit organization that's about, like, like, it sounds like it's about keeping kids from being online too early, but really, it's actually owned by meta, and their whole thing is to get your kids information early, and so they can, I know, so you gotta, you gotta look at these things you don't know. Now, I sound like a tin hat person, but you gotta look. Brad Crowell 9:41  Yeah, so they have nonprofit partners. It doesn't. It's not really that clear, but—Lesley Logan 9:45  Use it your own risk. Brad Crowell 9:46  We'll figure that out. You know.Lesley Logan 9:47  You, you know, be thoughtful. All right. Well, that's that at least gives you an actual step to be it till you see it in your advanced directive. And I know it comes after tax day. And look, no one likes taxes. But the reality is, is, if you vote in your primaries for the people that you think will to put your tax dollars to work the way you want. You have a better chance of getting that in the major part in November. So go vote. Primaries are happening all over the place right now as we speak, and so please go take care of that. Okay. Brad Crowell 10:17  1,000% Lesley Logan 10:18  Yes! Lesley Logan 10:19  So important.Lesley Logan 10:19   I know. Brad Crowell 10:20  All right, let's shift gears here. So coming up next, we got spring training happening in May, May 12 through 17th. So if you want to do Pilates at home, we're going to be going upside down in a bunch of different ways, with some really fun classes led by all the OPC team. And if you want information about that, it's probably already available for you to jump into— Lesley Logan 10:39  Oh yeah, you can sign up right now.Brad Crowell 10:40  But go to opc.me/events, opc.me/events. Also eLevate 2027 we have only a few spots left. I think it's possible that they're already sold out. But if you were really interested in a deep dive of classical Pilates with Lesley, it's a nine month mentorship program for certified Pilates teachers. We're going to be kicking it off in January next year. Learn more about that at lesleylogan.co/elevate. Lesleylogan.co/elevate. And you and I can hop on a call. We'd love to explain more about it with you. And then finally, we have summer tour coming up. Lesley Logan 11:14  I know that's so crazy. It's going it's a fast. Brad Crowell 11:16  it's a bit ahead of schedule here. That's in August. Lesley Logan 11:19  If it's in August, we open the doors in May. Brad Crowell 11:21  So that's exciting. We can't wait. It's gonna be awesome this year. We have a different route. I was just reviewing it with the team. We're going to be going, like, directly across the country, straight across all the way to Tennessee and back. So we're doing, like, a big, long oval in the middle of the country, hitting—Lesley Logan 11:35  We're not going to go up into the Michigan?Brad Crowell 11:37  We're not I was, I was—Lesley Logan 11:39  We lied to everybody. Brad Crowell 11:40  We lied to everyone last week and the week and the week before. Yeah, 100% we are hitting Dallas, though we're gonna catch that on the way back. Lesley Logan 11:46  Okay, I feel like a little sad for our Chicago Michiganders, you know. Brad Crowell 11:52  Yeah, I definitely—Brad Crowell 11:53  All those people. Brad Crowell 11:54  Well, we were just there in September in Chicago.Lesley Logan 11:56  I know, but it's not. We weren't in Minneapolis. Brad Crowell 11:59  We will work it out. We'll work it out. But this tour is going across the country, and, yeah, but, but come join us if you're able to, you know, find out all the information at opc.me/tour. Lesley Logan 12:08  I'm really excited! I realize I didn't sound as excited as I am. I'm just, I like, I had it in my head that we were, like, doing the middle, and we're doing a different middle. Lesley Logan 12:18  We are doing the middle.Lesley Logan 12:19   It wasn't clear. I wasn't clear— Brad Crowell 12:20  Yeah it's a different middle—Lesley Logan 12:21  I manifested the wrong oval. Brad Crowell 12:23  (Laughs)Lesley Logan 12:23  Okay, noted for next time. Well, before we get into the episode, what is the question of the week? Lesley Logan 12:30  Yeah, so, okay, this is from advocate_pilates on Instagram. She asked, Hey, Lesley, what mat do you use? Does it have good grip, and do you use it for Mat Pilates? Yeah, yeah. So I don't I have a mat that's just for Pilates, and I have a mat that's for yoga, and that's intentional. They are two different practices. They require two different needs. So I use a contrology mat for Pilates. It has a firm density, which doesn't mean it's hard as a rock. It's actually quite great for when you roll on it, you don't have to worry about, like, touching the floor or anything like that, but it's firm enough to do plank so your wrists don't have any issues, and shoulders have any issues. And we have an incredible affiliate link that you can use to get a discount on that mat as handles. Brad Crowell 13:11  It's opc.me/foldingmat, foldingmat. Lesley Logan 13:16  And as far as, like, good grip, I'm imagining you mean on the floor. And so what I would say is, like, I you probably would put a pad down if you had hardwood floors, because there is, like, some metal on the bottom that you don't want to scratch your hardwood floors, and that would keep it from sliding around. Pretty much any mat. You should all be mindful of stepping on mats on hardwood floors, because a lot of mats will slip around. So even if they have good grip with your skin. They always have good grip on the hardwood floors. We have tile and we have a rug. So it doesn't slide around on our tile. It doesn't slide around our rugs. It is a heavy duty. Brad Crowell 13:49  I mean, it's, it weighs like, you know, 20 pounds. Brad Crowell 13:52  Oh, yeah. Brad Crowell 13:53  It's not light, yeah. It's not like a, it's not a, this is not a yoga mat.Lesley Logan 13:56  No, no, no. So Dan, so I it is an investment. But to me, your mat practice is something you're going to do forever, and it's something, well, this mat, you'll buy one, and you'll have it forever, and there's that. So that's what's really great. Versus my yoga mat.Brad Crowell 14:09  Buy one get that one forever,Lesley Logan 14:11  Get one forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Versus my yoga mats that I inevitably have to replace even every 10 years because they start to just fall apart, Yep, yeah.Brad Crowell 14:21  Well, if you have a question, ping us. Let us know. Send us a text. 310-905-5534, or, you know, and easier is go to be it pod.com/questions we can leave us either a win or a question. We are looking forward to getting those from you so we can celebrate your wins on Fuck Yeah Friday, fuck yeah. Stick around. We'll be right back. We're gonna start chatting about Billy Lhar.Brad Crowell 14:46  All right, let's talk about Billy Lahr. Billy is the creator and host of the Mindful Midlife Crisis podcast and a Certified Mindfulness Meditation Teacher with a background in education and behavior change. He spent over two decades working in education, including Leadership roles before stepping away in 2021 since then, Billy's focused on coaching and consulting while living and working internationally. Definitely describes himself as a nomad. He also facilitates the Jump Start, Jump Start Conversation Series, a free weekly conversation space that's relaxed and collaborative, where coaches often join to connect with peers and share perspectives without the pressure of performing. We're gonna put the link for that in the signup notes below. So if you're interested in that, if that's something that you know you want, like a support group kind of vibe or just a hangout community, sesh, you know, go check that out.Lesley Logan 15:31  Yeah, I think this is really fun. I love that. He said he's not a fan of getting out of your comfort zone to grow. I think that's great. It's like— Brad Crowell 15:40  He said, fuck that. I've been working hard to get into my comfort zone.Lesley Logan 15:42  Yeah, I resonate with that. Because, like, so many of us are, like, trying to figure out who we are. And so, like, it's kind of hard to, like, figure who you are and then get out of your comfort zone if you don't who you are. And but he said to be cautious when we get into the complacency zone. Brad Crowell 15:56  Yeah, I thought that was a cool term—Lesley Logan 15:57  I think that's, I think that that's really, we see that happen all the time with people who teach Pilates, like, sometimes they just get like, they're just like, going through the motions. And, you know, they it's not that they lost their zest for it, but something kind of happened along the way. Maybe they were restricted in too many ways, and they're just like, okay, I'm just gonna do this. But there's no it's okay to be in your comfort zone. Just notice, if you're in your complacency zone, what a great thing. He also suggested, like expanding your life from within, rather than forcing yourself into discomfort from the outside. And I mean, I think, look, here's the deal. We do understand that, like diamonds are made from pressure, and stressing your bones is how you make healthy bones, and stressing your muscles is how you make healthy muscles, like all that stuff is very, very true, but I do think that some people are constant, like, like, they're constantly putting themselves into experiences that maybe is too much, that they're going like, you're doing too much working out, or you're doing too much stress on the bones, and so you're never actually reaping the rewards and the benefits of those things. And so he actually likened it to you you stretch your comfort zone, like pizza dough from the inside. Brad Crowell 17:04  Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. I like the vision, he said. He said, Only heathens pull your pizza dough. You have to press it from the middle. You got to press it from the inside to expand your pizza dough.Lesley Logan 17:14  Yeah, that's why. But I think that just goes—Brad Crowell 17:16  Before we got talking with pizza zone. I want to just define complacency zone, because, you know, comfort zone versus complacency zone, Comfort, he's his argument is that it's okay to be in your comfort zone, but you can get complacent once you get there. And I look, I was just thinking about it, it's like a stagnant place. It's where you're stuck, you know, and you're you're also, it's not just that you're stuck, but you're also, like, unwilling to change. You are resisting change, right? And you're relying on familiar, outdated routines. So, you know, I think that there's definitely a difference between being in the comfort zone and being in a complacency zone. But I do like this the analogy of, like, stretching like a pizza dough, you know?Lesley Logan 17:54  Yeah, I do too. Pilate is all about moving from your center outward. And I also think, like, sometimes people are easy to just go, Well, I'm just gonna change the outside. I'm gonna change from the outside in versus the inside out. Brad Crowell 18:05  Yeah. Yeah.Lesley Logan 18:06  Because a lot of the things you get marketed to are, like, outside, exterior, like, you know, what do you call it? Like external things or physical things? It's not necessarily like getting to know who you are. And so I think that there's something about, you know, it's not, I don't think he's advocating that you just like, sit around in your comfy couch and just like, chill out. But I do think it goes back to like, how we coach studios, like, we want your business to be a little boring, not that you're complacent, but that it's predictable, right? That that it's okay to be in a comfortable place with your business, that it's predictable in its seasons, you'll still have to keep learning. There'll still be new tools to know. There's still going to be things out there that are going to stress you in a different way, but you don't have to find new ways to challenge yourself and get outside your comfort zone all the time. You can. You can actually have some predictability there, as long as you're not complacent. I like it.Brad Crowell 18:53  Yeah. So, you know, when he was talking about pushing back against negative, this idea of being selfish, I was laughing so hard, because we've been talking about this for a long time, that self-care isn't selfish, and I really loved that we're not the only one talking about it. He said, there's not necessarily something wrong with being selfish if you've been overly selfless, right? Like, because I think we get into this, you two are really digging in, you know? And he's saying, you know, we, we think that when we're selfless, we're quote, unquote correct or right, and then when we are selfish, we're wrong, right. And what he was saying is, like, those are both actual extremes. Yeah, you know, what if we were grounded or self centered? Or, what if we focus about centered self, not like, in a negative way, but like, how do we— Lesley Logan 19:49  I know, so—Brad Crowell 19:50  How can we be both of those things instead of like, one or the other?Lesley Logan 19:53  I know, I think, like, because self centered has such a negative connotation, but like, a centered self is, like, whelmed, right? Like—Lesley Logan 19:59  Yeah. Lesley Logan 20:00  So if, like, selfless and self-ish are overwhelmed and underwhelmed, right, then centered self would be whelmed, right?Brad Crowell 20:07  It'd be right in the middle and and that allows you to protect yourself, you know, to put yourself first in some situations and then in others still, of course, you know, serve others, and that's good. But—Lesley Logan 20:20  We have, we have a series coming out about like, giving yourself permission to become whatever it is that you want to be. And there's actually, like, this term called the permission gap that I get into in the episode series that I created. And it's actually all because the way society is is it raises women to feel that they are selfish if they prioritize themselves first, yeah, and so they must care for everyone else's needs ahead of their own, and then they can care for themselves. But there's no time after doing all that—Brad Crowell 20:49  That's, that's just illogical. It's not sustainable. Lesley Logan 20:52  Right. Brad Crowell 20:53  What, what ends up happening is, you're burnt out? Lesley Logan 20:55  Yeah. Brad Crowell 20:55  Yeah. Brad Crowell 20:55  There's a reason why. Like, speaking of Healthcare Advocacy Day, there is a reason why you can actually pay for some way that your health insurance pays someone to take care of you, because it is impossible for someone, or most people, in your life, to take off of work to care for you. There's a reason why we have home health aides, right? Because we—Brad Crowell 21:15  Yeah.Lesley Logan 21:15  We do live in a world where like you can't just like care for other people all the time at the expense of your own self?Brad Crowell 21:22  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the that's the key. That's true. Well, you know, anyway, I just thought they were great topics. So stick around. We'll be right back. We got some really fun BE IT action items from Billy Lhar as well. So we'll be right back.Brad Crowell 21:36  Alright, so finally, let's talk about those BE IT action items, what bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your conversation with Billy Lhar. He said he rejects the standard social question of, like, what do you do? And I found this really intriguing, because I love that what do you do is an open ended question, and I'm always interested, I asked that's exactly the question that I ask, what do you do? Because what people how they respond to that question tells me a lot, because when they turn around and say, what do I do? I say, I sleep a lot, or I play video games or, you know, but what they're implying with the question is, what do you do for work? So that's kind of interesting to me, but I loved that he like, he's like, no, screw that. Because people always answer with what do they do for work, which is, is boring. And I thought that was—Lesley Logan 22:22  Not what I do for work, but, you know, but other people are boring. (Laughs)Brad Crowell 22:26  No, but he. here's the thing, effectively, he doesn't want to talk about what he does for work, because he said, he said, I was an English teacher. That's boring, you know. So, you know, what he started doing instead was asking people different questions, and he said they often were like, like shocking or eye opening, or like, whoa, you're we don't even know each other, and you're asking me this kind of question. And he said he the question he likes to leave with is, what are 10 roles that you play in your life, 10 roles that you play in your life, right?Lesley Logan 22:56  Yeah, yeah. I think I would make it three. I feel like I don't want to sit there long enough (inaudible)—Brad Crowell 23:01  First five are always the same. What are your 10 roles? I'm a daughter, I'm a sister, I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I'm a husband. Whatever. He said, It's always that crap. But then once they get through that crap, then they have to tell you something interesting about themselves. What like because they run out of they run out of the obvious things. So then they think about it, and then they have to tell you something. So that's, I think that might be part of why it's 10. He argues that a person's value and interest lie in the various roles that they play outside of those standard things. Like, I'm a paddle boarder. I'm this, I'm a, you know, like, I'm a, I'm a long haul driver for when we go on tour. I'm a I sit behind a booth. I'm a boother. (Laughs)Lesley Logan 23:44  (Laughs)Brad Crowell 23:47  Just making shit up here. He said, he said, also, you know, it helps, because you're not just one thing in your life, and so it like battles complacency when you're when, when you're engaging people on these other things that they're excited about. So—Lesley Logan 24:02  Yeah, I think that's cool, I guess, I guess you're right. You have to go to 10. That's just a big question. If I don't know if I want to talk to that person for that long. Brad Crowell 24:10  Yeah, I feel like that makes sense.Lesley Logan 24:11  He's clearly interested in people, and I'm like, I you know, we can go. Brad Crowell 24:15  What about you? Lesley Logan 24:16  I, okay, so he said, follow your passion is complete and utter nonsense. Brad Crowell 24:21  (Laughs)Lesley Logan 24:21  I think this is so funny. Brad Crowell 24:23  I liked his logic here. I thought this was pretty awesome actually. Lesley Logan 24:26  He said, and I think this is helpful, because, like, people are always like, what am I passionate about? Like, what's my hobby? Like this—Brad Crowell 24:31  Yeah, what should I do? Lesley Logan 24:32  What should I do for like, passion is not a starting point. Passion is a byproduct of this formula. Step one, figure out what you are good at and your strengths. So we have had many a strength finder type coach on here. Oh yeah, so you can go talk to any of them. They are so many. From day one of this podcast, there's been so many. And then he said, jumps he has— Brad Crowell 24:54  He's got a workbook. Lesley Logan 24:54  He's a workhouse, workbook called Jump Start Your Midlife Workbook, and you could take that. So that's part of step one. Got to figure out what you're good at, what are your strengths? Step two, what are you curious about, and how can you leverage those skills and those strengths to learn more? So there's a Venn diagram I'm imagining. This is how I picture it, your skills, your strengths, and what you're curious about. And then dude in the middle, there's like you. And then you take that to find a community. So find people you can connect with, and they'll help you. That will help you identify your purpose. Because even if you don't like them, you'll go, I don't like that. That's not my purpose. And then in then, if you want to turn that purpose into a passion, you just multiply that by consistency, discipline, patience and self-compassion. So then you you put, you know, fuel to that fire.Brad Crowell 25:38  Yeah, and I think that he emphasized the last two and that the patience and self-compassion— Lesley Logan 25:45  Oh yeah. Brad Crowell 25:45  So like when you want to turn something that you're good at into your passion, he said, you need to multiply it by consistency, discipline, patience and self-compassion. And he said, most people, we've all heard you know consistency, persistent and consistent, be persistent and consistent, you know, which, which obviously also means discipline. But he said, we always skip the patience and self-compassion part of it. Lesley Logan 26:10  Yeah.Brad Crowell 26:11  Because you're gonna fail and it's also not gonna happen overnight, whatever it might be. Lesley Logan 26:15  Yep.Brad Crowell 26:15  You know.Lesley Logan 26:16  Yep. I agree. I think radical self-compassion is important.Brad Crowell 26:21  Radical self-compassion.Lesley Logan 26:22  Yes. Brad Crowell 26:23  I dig it.Lesley Logan 26:23  Yes. Just like radical responsibility. That's my right, my favorite phrase right now, I want more people to take it. Um, you guys, I'm Lesley Logan and I'm Brad Crowell. This sinus infection will pass and, but not on next week's episode. So just a heads up. We got one more and, but we're working on it. You know we are, and I appreciate your patience and the self-compassion I'm having for myself and the compassion you're having for me. Send his episode, or this one to a friend who needs to hear it. Send your be it pod wins and and your questions into beitpod.com What does it beitpod.com/questions Yeah. Send them there. And until next time, be it till you see it. Brad Crowell 26:56  Bye for now. Lesley Logan 26:58  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod. Brad Crowell 27:40  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell. Lesley Logan 27:45  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co. Brad Crowell 27:49  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi. Lesley Logan 27:57  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals. Brad Crowell 28:00  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.  Brad Crowell 28:13  All right, let's talk about Billy Lhar. Billy is the creator and host of the Mindfulness, Mindful Midknife (inaudible).Lesley Logan 28:18  (Laughs)Brad Crowell 28:18  (Inaudible). Starting over.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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Kiera is a guest on The Zero Balance Podcast with John Stamper! She and John discuss the advancement of software over the past few years, and why the current culmination — artificial intelligence — isn't something to be skittish around in your practice.  Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: The Dental A Team (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners, this is Kiera. And today we are sharing a guest interview I did on another podcast. And it was too valuable not to bring you guys here.   this episode, you're gonna hear this host lead the conversation and then I'll wrap us up at the end. I cannot wait. It was truly one of my most   incredible episodes and I truly hope you enjoy.   John (00:19) What's going on everybody. Welcome to another episode here on The ZeroBalance podcast brought to you by the team at Quanta Suite. Very excited to keep this thing going. Uh, our last conversations and episodes crazy to think it's 2026 already were at the Dykma conference. And I had the privilege of spending time, not only with the Quanta Suite team, but also a lot of great individuals that came on the podcast and talked about what they were seeing in that case, it was in the DSO space. Uh, I'm very excited today to   be with Kiera Dent from the Dental A team. I've known Kiera for many years. We were actually just talking before we came on here live. ⁓ she is doing a lot along with her team to help dental practices, take things to the next level. she's been in dental for many, many years. And so we're going to have a conversation today, ⁓ kind of around all things AI and automation and love to have her, you know, kind of share with all of you what she's seeing, you know, her and her team are working with dental practices on a daily basis. And obviously, you know, the Qantas suite team is, is creating.   their software in an effort to be able to support practices in the RCM world. But Kiera, it's such great to have you here. How you doing?   Kiera (01:26) Oh my gosh, John, it's great to see you again. And I love chatting about all things dentistry. I love having the last name dent. I love dental. love AI. love, um, it's crazy. Dental A Team hits 10 years old this year, which is like absolutely wild. Uh, 2026, I was getting ready to, know, writing my goals out and I was like, Oh my gosh, I turned 40. My husband turns 40. We've been married for 15 years and Dental A Team hits 10 years this year. So   ⁓ and I bring that up only because like, it's like a trifecta of a cool year for me. ⁓ but I think as you were discussing, like being in dental consulting for 10 years, having worked in front office teams, having worked at a dental college, having owned dental practices, having bought and sold, having consulted like 300 plus offices physically, ⁓ watching the DSO emerge, watching AI come in. I just think it's really like such a fun time for us to be in dentistry and so many great advancements and, yeah.   In Dental A Team, we are obsessed with doctors and teams, like getting them aligned, getting them streamlined, helping dentists be like CEOs and owners of their practices. We love ⁓ Josh, we love what he's building in DCS and now in Qantas. We think that they're doing some really fun, incredible things. And Dental A Team, we're just really big on, I think, streamlining dental practices, helping them say yes to more things. So getting them in their vision, getting financially free and profitable.   and then getting systems and team development to support that. And AI is definitely being a big player. And I think dentistry is, it's so fun because it's been such a, like, I think slow roll on evolution in certain ways. Sometimes I think we are very archaic. My husband's in healthcare and medicine and he's like, wait, that's your guys' software. I'm like, don't judge. I know it's a little dated. He's like, they didn't even have that when I started my career 15 years ago. ⁓ But I think,   to watch dentistry evolve into AI and automations and different things. I think we are in such a special time. So yeah, we work with solo practices. We work with multi practices. We work with emerging DSOs. We work with DSOs. We've got consulting for kind of a broad spectrum and kind of our sweet side, like two to five to $10 million practice. ⁓ We definitely have built a lot of things that can help multi offices, but yeah, we really love those offices that are obsessed about team, about culture and about.   just positively impacting the world of dentistry in the greatest way possible. So John, super excited to talk about it. I feel like we just have like so much knowledge to bring to the table and just rift and discuss and give your listeners hopefully a fresh, fun, positive perspective on the world of AI dentistry and of course bringing team and doctor perspectives to the table for you today.   John (04:03) Well, thanks for sharing that. you can see, everybody, Kiera comes with a ton of energy, but it is rooted, as she mentioned, in years of experience in this industry. And here's where I wanted to start, Kiera. So I want to go back maybe like five or six years in dentistry when there was a lot of new software platforms that were coming to dentistry, patient engagement, right? It was like this big giant party and a lot of practices were excited. You may remember though, as someone that works directly with the dental practices with as much   excitement as there was there also was a little bit of overwhelm right because it's like where do we start like how do we build these in and it's funny that you talk about your husband because yes in dentistry these are all somewhat kind of new to the industry and so practices are figuring how to use them and I do feel like okay maybe a couple years ago with like firms like yourself that have really helped these practices figure out how to utilize them they got that under their belt and then   here comes AI, right? And here comes this whole new way for these practices to be able to communicate, you know, task orient and all that stuff. So that's kind of the first place I'd like to start is that when you look at the work that you do now with the dental practices and I say the word AI, where is everybody's heads?   Kiera (05:13) Yeah. and agreed. I think, I think that this is just evolution of business. Like if I were to like even simplify it down, I think dentistry has been so much like we drill teeth, we fill teeth, but I'm like, guys, we have evolved. We don't do wooden teeth anymore. we've evolved and now there's laser and there's PRF and there's more advancements to dentistry that we do. Like I have a practice, I call them my PRF powerhouse and they've added PRF to their practices and we've added multi-millions to their office.   But like, yes, financially, that's been amazing, but their patient care has gone up so much, like the amount of results we're seeing. so when people are like, software's AIs, I'm like, hold on. You have evolved in your dentistry and you've seen how much it's evolved and how much better it is. I mean, the way we used to do crowns compared to how we do crowns, we can do same day crowns. We look at how we do ortho. We look at the different like skill sets that we've been able to add in. I feel like AI is the same thing. And I think when we get a little skittish, that's actually where I feel like we're   at more danger of a society. as I don't want to use the word old John, but I'm like, Hey, if you're not going to innovate and like you're going to die. there's innovate or die. We've got to grow and evolve or we're going to be left behind. And I mean, I think we see that with certain practices who elected no, no, John, I'm not going to have online and online. No, they're going to see my sign. They're going to drive by. This is how I'm going to be. Well, if you don't have an online presence today,   you're pretty much not visible anywhere in the world. No, no, no, John, I'm not going to do Google reviews. I don't need to do Google reviews. Well, Google reviews are how people find you. And now it's becoming AEO where AI is actually now searching for offices. I mean, we just did a trip to Iceland and where did I go? Chat GPT. And where's my next place I go? I go to Instagram, TikTok. What are the best places to go? No, John, I don't need to be on social media. We don't need to have that presence. We have our marketing. We send postcards.   Well, if you're not on Instagram, people are going there now. They go check your Google reviews and then go check your online profile. So I think for dentists to maybe recognize that high five, like you actually have evolved over the last several years. You've evolved. You are morphing and as businesses, it is an innovation or it is a die. And so when we talk about AI, AI is going to be awesome. You guys, AI was created. Like I think so much of the reason it took off is because we had 2020, we shut down.   Then we went through 2021 of the great resignation. We could not find people. You want to talk about hygiene shortages? Well, great. Now we're able to bring in people and you're like, but AI is not going to replace hygiene. Correct. But AI is actually helping with perio charting and different pieces that we're able to utilize. It's cutting down our costs that we're able to have on some of the billing and the revenue cycle management that we actually have alleviated funds to be able to pay the higher costs of hygiene that's offsetting. So our businesses can still be profitable. So when I look at it from a business,   I think guys, welcome to 2026, welcome to AI and get excited about it. And rather than being afraid of it, let's start to embrace and you don't have to be the earliest adopter, but I will say similar to like, I'm not going to join the internet. I'm not going to have Google reviews. I'm not going to do Instagram. We have watched that those who wait too long, I'm not going to do online payments. John, that's my favorite. Like we still expect checks. I don't even know how to write a check guys. Like truly I'm like, who accepts checks? ⁓   But things like that are so dated and so cumbersome compared to how the world's evolving that you are niching yourself more and more, more to less and less and less of a patient base. And if that's your exit strategy, rock on, it's a great one. But if you're not on the exit strategy, you definitely need to get on board with AI. And I think like we have a practice in Maryland, she's a pediatric practice and she's like, we call it AI Amy. And well, yes, our team gets annoyed with ⁓ AI Amy. They've trained an AI bot to be able to schedule for these   DC parents that want to make appointments at all hours of the day and they want to talk to someone. AI Amy schedules and guess what? AI Amy schedules about 75 % correctly and the team's annoyed and the doctor's like, you never get to be mad at AI Amy because that was 75 % of patients that we didn't even have to schedule. 25 % were a miss. Perfect. But that was 25 % out of 75, like a hundred percent. We, that's a quarter. We've literally cut down our space. And so I think when it's looking at   scheduling tools, revenue cycle management, ⁓ looking at how we use it for hygiene. Doctors like using Pearl or ⁓ Overjet to help with diagnosis. Case acceptance is going up. And while it's not perfect today, I think getting in the language, getting in the familiarity so you don't accidentally get too dated, AI is going to take off faster than anything else. If you're not on chat GPT, if you're not utilizing it for things, it cuts down man hours and people are like, but I don't want people to lose jobs. And I'm like,   You're not, we're elevating, we're lifting up our practice and we're morphing into where the world and society is going and your practice and your patients will thrive because of it. So that's my take. And I know I kind of went on a soapbox for you, John, but I think doctors need to realize it's not as scary as I think maybe some of them are looking. ⁓ It's something we've always done. It just looks different today.   John (10:22) Well, I'm glad you shared all that because I've been talking with people a lot lately and I feel like in unknown times or times where many of us don't know kind of where things are going to be, it really calls for leadership. And I think that's what's important. I think that's what you shared. think that practices are looking for people like yourself and others that are living this. They've dove into it. They're embracing it. They're learning how to get the maximum out of it. And so I glad you shared that. All right. So that's the first piece, right? That's kind of like the overwhelming the tech.   you mentioned a little bit about revenue cycle management and I wanted to get your thoughts as well on this other thing that dental practices are facing which is patients now come in and are having the same type of expectation of the experience on the business side of the practice, their billing and their payments and all of that, that we have with other businesses that we work with.   And so now a dental practice is getting questions as you know so well, like, okay, like am I gonna be able to pay easy? Are we gonna be able to track all this easy? Because that's how we do it with other businesses. And now all of sudden the dental practices have had to wake up and they have to make sure that that part of their practice is also, you know, automated and where it needs to be. So love to have your thoughts on that part as well.   Kiera (11:37) Yeah, and John, just to piggyback of where you were talking about dentists getting on board, I will just plug, and this is why we built an in-person mastermind, is because I recognize dentists feel like they're on isolated islands. And when you can get around really smart, you are the equivalent, proximity is power. And so getting around dentists that are not afraid of this, being in groups, listening to podcasts like this, if we can serve on that, rock on, I'm happy to do that. I would just encourage you to...   surround yourself with smart people that are getting involved in this and people that push you out of your comfort zone. People that have voices that are maybe not the same of what you normally listen to. Like if you're always listening to Fox News, maybe listen to CNN or if you're listening to CNN, then go to Fox. Like you need to hear opposing opinions on this. And I would just really encourage people to be a part of innovation rather than being destroyed by innovation would be my recommendation. And then going into this patient payment.   John, it makes me laugh because dentistry and I did a podcast, I should go find it. was several years ago and I'm like, why is dentistry on payments? Like we're in the 1800s, like put it on my tab. I'm like, what is going on in dentistry? Like nowhere else do you go and you're like, got my groceries, but could you put that on my tab, John? Yeah. Yeah. But yet in dentistry, we're like, yeah, we'll bill insurance and then we'll charge you for that. What are we doing? And I just think like,   Our revenue cycle management in dentistry is so dated and archaic that I'm like, ladies and gents, it's an amazing way for you to make a lot more money with a lot less effort if you just update a little bit on your revenue cycle management. Like we are so archaic ⁓ and dental insurances are using AI. Like why do you think Pearl and Overjet exist? Well, you better believe that the insurance companies are ripping that too. They're using AI to see their claims.   ⁓ so with payments and patients, do think like patients are expecting us to have online scheduling. They're expecting us to have easy ways to pay. mean, I've even seen some dental offices that take payments in Bitcoin and I'm not here to say you need to go clear to Bitcoin or like some extremes, but I do think that there's this evolution of, I don't want to wait a long time. I don't want to have weird payment things. want to people like John, I think it used to be the society where we worked eight to five.   We left our work at home. didn't have computer or at work. We didn't have computers. Our phone was a landline. It would shut off and we were home. That does not exist anymore. So most of the time I feel like our eight to five is our quiet time at work. And then after hours we're like, ⁓ I need to pay for this and I need to take care of this appointment and I need to schedule the kids for this. And we do that while we're sitting in bed scrolling through Instagram and like, shoot, I need to make that payment.   I feel dental practices, they have such an amazing opportunity if they will update and use more modern, I would say, like it's not even AI guys. We're just talking about getting onto the playing field. If you would do that, I have watched practices that implement these processes, their AR, their collections, their profitability are exponentially more, I would say consistent and constant as much as...   as opposed to being like inconsistent and fluctuating like they were in the past, because patients can pay all the time. Patients can send things forward. And I do think like, yes, dentistry people want that good old home, like girl and dentists that like takes care of them. But I think a lot of times the way you've evolved with technology also helps people see how have you evolved in your dentistry as well. I do not want to go to somebody who's still paper charts. I get concerned about   Are we up to speed on our current things? That's so foreign to me. No one else does that anymore that I think we to be careful that we don't accidentally date our dentistry by not being up to speed on our payments as well.   John (15:27) So you just built the bridge to the next thing I was going to ask you, right? So we talked a little bit about technology and embracing it, the patient experience and what they expect. And then this final thing is the perception of the patient in looking at the practice and the technology that the practice invests in. And again, 10, 15 years ago, when maybe dentistry was not as proactive and patients were just going to the practice. Now practices are, it's more competitive. There's more practices in every city, many across the country.   And so with that becomes this image that you portray to the patient and your business that you are making those investments to stay up to speed to be able to provide those types of services. And so talk about that a little bit. And I think that   for many dental practices, like for many of us that are entrepreneurs, like we've lived in this ROI world, right? If you ever were someone that had to raise cash or capital, you get those questions. And from a dental practice perspective, right? It's like, okay, we're going to make this investment in technology and rightfully so. What's the ROI on this? And I do think, and I loved your thoughts on this, that companies are doing such a better job of being able to paint that picture of, okay, you're going to make this investment. You're going to put this technology in the practice. It's going to make your patient experience better. But here is going to be   the return on investment, you are going to unlock a lot of your AR that's out there, make things easier for your patients. So talk about that a little bit.   Kiera (16:50) Yeah. I'll just get like paint a story of a practice. So there's a practice in Texas and this practice is amazing. Like they truly have a castle of an office. am blown away at how stunning this practice is. They are up to par on all the latest technology. They do a lot of these items in their practice, but what they were doing was the patient came in. So the waiting room was beautiful and they would just walk the patient straight back to the back.   Now this is a practice who's been around multi-generations of dentistry. They do service in other places. They have a state of the art lab they do in-house. Like it is a practice that should be showcased and they were struggling and their revenue was down and we went in person with this office and we consulted their team and we taught them like, we're going to have you guys take them on a patient tour. like, this is a pretty large team. think there's about 35, 40 people and we like made them role play walking through this practice and showcasing.   this ROI items that they've put into it. I you guys are using this, but do your patients actually know that you're doing it? So we do this, we implement it, we track a few things with them. Fast forward two, three months post visit, their reviews exponentially went up, their new patient counts went up, their revenue, they had their highest revenue number they had ever had and their culture of their team was happier. And I was like, I don't think I can sit here and say it's a coincidence. So like the patients love the tour.   Like they love seeing this practice. They love seeing what's going on. And what is as is it just gives confidence. And I say, John, if you and I were to go to ⁓ a surgeon, right? I'm going to want to know that that surgeon is the best freaking surgeon and that I'm going to put my confidence in them because I only have one arm, one hand, one leg, one neck. We'll have one set of teeth too. And so helping patients get the perception of who you are as a dentist and showcasing, I have seen like I've worked in hundreds of practices.   And some of my best offices do not showcase like they're the best and perception is a lot. Now there's some practices who actually are not great dentists and they showcase like they're amazing. And so you've got to make sure that who you are is what you're doing. But the ROI, and I wanted to showcase that practice, they have invested in a lot of this technology. They have invested in advancing their practice and it shows and they're able to show their patients. And we had direct correlation of higher reviews, higher new patients and higher production. And so I think.   Just that example, and this was done just a couple of months ago. We were out there in September and in December they had their highest month. So it wasn't a long-term ROI churn. It was very quick. so I think in general, medicine has evolved. think across the board, we're talking healthcare as a whole has leveled up. They uptick higher. Patients are expecting more. I mean, we go anywhere and technology is higher. You go to the movie theater, you go to the restaurants.   everything has upleveled. And if you and your practice are not up leveling, and I don't think it's hard for dentistry, I'm like, you guys already have a 3d printer or you already have a scanner or you already are taking digital x-rays. Just tell your patients, you do this showcase it around because I think the, the fallacy that you might fall into is like, but patients are just loyal to me. I think I to be careful because there's so much online noise that while a patient might love you,   they're seeing other offices that might accidentally take away your patients and they're doing it. Like it annoys me, John. I have a patient sitting in my chair and like, yeah, I just went to Dr. Thompson down the street from my ortho. I'm like, so we do ortho here, but they didn't know we did it. And so don't accidentally not showcase your work and showcase how great you are and how up to par you are that you're accidentally losing patients that are silent levers of your practice. ⁓ because you didn't showcase how great you were and let your patients know what you actually do.   I think that's the trap and the opportunity if you take it to be able to keep your patients with you and keep them happier with you when there's still noise and chatter because they know they're at the best practice that's investing and elevating and giving them the best patient care they possibly can have.   John (20:52) Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot lately, just this kind of invisible credibility that comes with what you just talked about, which is when a business, in this case, a dental practice is making the investment in these newer technologies. A lot of times as patients, we don't say it, but we know, like you said, you walk into a practice and you see there's in your own life, you know what it took to remodel your house or to get a new car or whatever the case may be of the things that are important to you. And so I think more and more patients know   and understand what a dental practice or a business has to go through when they up their game. I believe that you get a lot of credibility out of that, right? Versus maybe the one that doesn't do that. Maybe the thought becomes whether it's real or not. Hey, why aren't they doing that? Like are things not good here? Like, do I have something to be concerned about? And in many cases, perception is reality. And again,   It's going to run through to patient care. We all know that. think the last thing I wanted to get your thoughts on, and you talked a little bit about earlier was AI in the sense of case acceptance because you know, you and I both have been in this industry for many years and have watched all the courses that dentists and hygienists and dental assistants have had to take on how to present good treatment and get case acceptance.   and we've watched them struggle for many years, Kiera, and then all of a sudden we have these newer technologies where you can show the patient where the work needs to be done in their mouth. And it's crazy, right? All of a sudden, I'm like, wow, that's me? That's where I have to get work done? the dentist is like, I've been telling you this for like, why didn't you just believe me? And in front of our eyes, this technology is now instilling confidence in the patients. And ultimately, it's a win for everybody.   Kiera (22:36) Yeah, think it's such a beautiful time for dentistry right now because we've been living in shades of gray for so many years. We advanced from like little tiny thumbnail ⁓ x-rays to on the screen x-rays that are still in gray to now having AI that can show patients exactly what's going on. And it's colored and it's showing them and it's giving measurements. And I think like what an amazing opportunity for you.   to use tools at your fingertips where you're not having to try to convince a patient of like, can you kind of see this like little gray box within this like other gray box that they truly cannot see? To now, this is what we're seeing. This is how it is. And to still give the doctors the liberty to be diagnosing. I know some have said that like AI is so aggressive on it. And I'm like, you don't have to diagnose that, but you now have a tool that's going to at least highlight. And I think dentists, you're so busy. You're running from exam to exam to exam. You have something.   that can look for all these things, prep it. You can train your eye. You can tee up all your associates that come in. Your hygiene team can learn collectively and your patient now has visible proof. It's like the, and I know dentists hate being compared to mechanics and I'm very sorry. I think it's just such a good like analogy. I go, you know, right? Like I go to the mechanic and like, here, you need new breaks. And I'm like, but do I really? Cause I've been scammed so many times patients like, do I really need a crown? John? Like, are you sure?   John (23:50) analogy I say because   Kiera (24:02) And we have taken that guesswork of, you sure? To being able to show them with black and white proof to where they're bought into it. They know they're not being scammed by you. They can see it with their own eyes and they're much more likely to accept treatment. I say, like confidence is what people are buying when they're saying yes to dentistry. Confidence is what increases your case acceptance. And this is a layer of confidence for you as the dentist, for your patients to see, for your team to all speak the same language.   care if AI is over diagnosing, don't over diagnose. You are still the doctor. Like this is just a tool in your tool belt. But I think it's something that hands down, I am so pro using it. I'm like, doctors also be so vigilant because insurances are denying claims based on the same software. Like they're using AI as well. So you might as well be in the game with them to see what they're seeing, to learn, to educate AI. So you're a part of it.   They use AI in medicine all the time. They use AI overlays on their x-rays that I'm like, yes, I get that it's not perfect. Yes, I get that it's clunky, but gosh, it's a freaking good tool that I would strongly advise you trying out, getting to know, using and learning. Even if it just helps you. I think about it. If I'm able to get 1 % more on case acceptance, go look at everything you're diagnosing. Usually that's a pretty good uptick, but not even just on your bottom line, but on the amount of patients you're able to help and serve. ⁓ why not?   Like what, what are you holding back on? I would just say, don't be afraid. Like just get in the game because you'll learn it's a lot better for you than it is scary. And there's a lot more good than there is harm.   John (25:39) Yeah, no question. Well, here's how I want to bring us home. You work with a lot of dental companies and I believe that this gap that I've seen for years between like the companies that are bringing the technologies to the dental practices and the practices themselves, it's exciting to kind of watch that gap close, right? Like I'm seeing more and more companies kind of listen and say, hey, what problems are you having? How can we utilize our resources to help you solve these problems? And you know,   We talked a little bit about at the onset, you know, the relationship that you have with Josh and DCS or whatever. And what's exciting is that you have companies that are starting, ⁓ and doing and solving one problem and then taking a lot of that feedback and then creating, you know, in this case, another technology platform and an effort to kind of elevate that problem. I mean, to be able to solve that problem with their solutions. What's that been like, right? Like talk a little bit about when you watch these companies evolve and continue to listen to the dental practice and bring these technologies to help these practices.   practices up their games.   Kiera (26:41) Oh, I think it's amazing. Actually. I am such a pro. Like I'm on a couple of different boards as well. And I think it's something where when I look at it, I'm like, why are these people doing it? And it's because we love dentistry. Like I look at Dental A Team team and what I used to consult versus what we consult now, like there's DSO, there's different needs than what a solo practitioner has. And so Dental A Team evolved and we became something of what are we going to do to serve the DSO thing and still be able to give back.   What is Josh with DCS? Like we heard this, we saw the need and we built something to help on that other avenue. To me, I think like, how awesome is it that you have people that are in the weeds, in the trenches have been here? I mean, I've got a decade of consulting, not to mention my like five years prior to that of assisting and all the other things prior to before that, like five more years. Like there's so much, like you have people that are so embedded in dentistry and they've seen the evolutions.   that they're willing to come forward. They're willing to execute. They're willing to stamp. They're willing to work hard to evolve these products and softwares to give back to you. And I think like people who are deeply rooted in dentistry, building these products, they're the best ones. Like I watched Modento, which I'll just give them. Like they were built by a hygienist and a dentist, and they were able to be one of the best softwares when they first started that I've ever seen. I'm like, I could tell this was built by people that got it. And so watching DCS like,   They get it. They're in the trenches. They've been watching this. They know what they're doing and they're moving it forward. We've been watching offices. We've been working with DSOs. We see what the nuances are and we build and create stuff to serve the dentist. Gosh, I just think it's magic and I think it's beautiful. And I think like, how lucky are we to be in these spaces to have people that have had enough time in the industry to know what the next layer is that you need before you even know. It feels like Henry Ford to me in a little bit like,   They said, if I give the people what they want, they'll want a faster horse. But if I give them what they need, it will be a car. And they don't even know that they need that yet. And I think that that's where we're evolving is being able to anticipate the needs of what offices need prior to them even realizing it's a need. And that to me is like just epic and incredible of a society and a community that really wants to give back and serve and make dentistry the best it can be.   John (28:55) Well, and who would have ever thought that a dental company would take the time to create a podcast like this, the zero bounce podcast, right? As a way to continue to add value and of course, invite amazing guests like yourself. I can tell everybody. I remember, I don't know how many podcast episodes Kiera has done, you know, in the past over many years. I remember the actual weekend that she was building and putting up those black panels behind her. ⁓ and so it's like, you know, you're, you're, you're definitely   listen to someone, you know, when you talk about someone that has rolled up their sleeves and dug in an effort to move dentistry forward, Kiera, you certainly have done that. And, ⁓ I know the DCS and Quanta Team really, really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to show your passion. And I think more importantly, help dental practices bridging a lot of these technologies and how to implement them. So any final thoughts as we wrap.   Kiera (29:47) Yeah, well, huge appreciation, John. And thank you for helping me with the background, because I definitely asked for you and your help and your insights. So appreciate that. I love it. Thank you. But I think, again, it's an evolution. And I would just say AI is going to be awesome. And there's going to be glitches, and there's going to be problems with anything. But I think the more we can embrace and we can innovate, we're either going to innovate or we're going to die. And we're going to be either on the path forward or we're going to be left behind.   John (29:55) So good.   Kiera (30:14) I think, Denissure, we have such a beautiful gift to give people confidence and clarity and smiles and health that no other profession is able to do. So I think it's just a moral charge for each of you to look to see where is maybe one area of AI or advancement that I'm willing to step into this year. So I commit to not getting dated. ⁓ And I think DCS and the Qantas team are a great place to start. think on our side, if there's anything we can do with team, with consulting, with...   like shoot, hate doing this. I don't want to go rally my team. Great. We love to do that. We do the part that no one likes to do just like DCS. They do the part of billing that no one likes to do. ⁓ I think we like do the dirty work of dentistry, but we love it we have a passion for it. So if we can help them serve in any way, TheDentalATeam.com Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. ⁓ huge partners of DCS and have referred many people to them over the years and just excited for what they're doing. So be excited guys. We live in the best times. We live in the most innovative times. And I think it's just.   a really amazing miracle that we get to be a part of dentistry and the changes. And I think everybody needs to realize what you do or don't do is going to have an impact on our future of dentistry. And I think that that's a moral charge each of us should take to be able to preserve the sanctity of our dentistry. That doesn't mean we stop it. That just means that we're able to positively impact. We're able to keep the integrity of our profession. And each of us, think, have a moral charge to do that. And so get on board, be a part of it, be a part of the noise, be a part of having your voice heard.   and I'm truly just excited and honored and happy to help in any way we can.   John (31:45) great way to wrap. And if you're watching this on YouTube, love to have you subscribe to The ZeroBalance podcast. If you are an audio podcast listener and you're listening to on Spotify or Apple as well, subscribe. And each time the Quanta team adds a new episode like this great one with Kiera, it'll come through on your listening device of choice. So Kiera, thanks so much. Best of luck as you continue to do great things. It's a big year for you, like you mentioned, 2026. So I'm excited to stay connected and watch all the great things that you and the Dental A Team are doing. So until next time, we'll see you everybody.   The Dental A Team (32:13) All right, Dental A Team listeners, that was the guest interview that I absolutely loved. And I hope that if there was one idea that stood out to you, don't just agree with it, but actually go implement it this week. And if you need help setting this up in your practice or you need help just navigating or need a friend, head on over to TheDentalATeam.com and I'll be able to help you guys out. Click on the book of call or any way that we can support and serve you. That's what we're here for. That's what we're obsessed with. And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team podcast.

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